Honestly, it's kind of draining
September 12, 2016 6:35 AM   Subscribe

Coming off Labor Day weekend, the POTUS candidates answered questions in the first Commander in Chief Forum, the clear loser of which was Matt Lauer. Hillary managed to move attention to Trump's "basket of deplorables" for a day, but then drew it back to herself by stumbling or collapsing while leaving a 9/11 memorial. Her camp blamed dehydration, then revealed she was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday.

At his CinC Forum appearance, Trump confirmed his bromance with Putin. Gov. Mike Pence defended his running mate. Third party candidate (and former spook) Evan McMullin is concerned.

Looking ahead, Trump is speaking to the National Guard Association in Baltimore today at 1:00 EDT. Hillary has canceled a west coast trip after yesterday's events, but is still scheduled for Ellen DeGeneres' show on Wednesday.

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lampshade's voter resource roundup:
posted by ChurchHatesTucker (3257 comments total) 94 users marked this as a favorite
 
> Honestly, it's kind of draining

Clenched jaw and a forced smile, the American way!
posted by Tevin at 6:38 AM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


via Kristen Anderson Lopez (author of "Let it Go" and other earworms):

So Hillary was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday. Well, I'm here to witness that I stood in line with over 200 people to grab 30 seconds and a picture with her on Friday night before she was slated to do a big speech. It was a madhouse. And yet, when Bobby and I stepped up for our turn and introduced ourselves, she smiled warmly and her encyclopedic mind remembered that I have an a cappella musical coming to Broadway.

I mean. . .this was HRC with pneumonia and a giant crowd clamoring for her attention at the end of a long day of a long week. And she can access info about an aCapella musical?

I mean. . .i had heard about her incredible mind - how she stores everything and has access to the minutest details. But I witnessed it first hand. And she probably had a fever and should have been in bed.

This is the mind I want representing and making decisions for our country.

posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:38 AM on September 12, 2016 [282 favorites]


I mean. . .this was HRC with pneumonia and a giant crowd clamoring for her attention at the end of a long day of a long week. And she can access info about an aCapella musical?

Knope Clinton 2016!

get on your feet! come on and make it happen!
posted by Talez at 6:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [53 favorites]


Thank god the conservative right finally cares about a woman's health...
posted by cooker girl at 6:42 AM on September 12, 2016 [228 favorites]


I think on Ellen's show, Ellen should ask about Hillary's health, then do the excited Ellen thing and go right to asking if she can see the armor suit Hillary is rumored to wear and then we get a clip of Hillary in Sigourney Weaver's Mecha from that Aliens movie, "taking out the trash."
posted by notyou at 6:42 AM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


A great article from 2 says ago about how Trump's foundation does illegal things, and Trump isn't even giving to it, and hasn't for 8 years. It appeared at the tail end of the last thread, and it is really a must-read.
posted by cashman at 6:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [44 favorites]


I mean. . .i had heard about her incredible mind - how she stores everything and has access to the minutest
details.


It's a common political technique and is called a Farley File.
posted by Confess, Fletch at 6:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [39 favorites]


It's just caring about women's health in the same way it always is-as an excuse to tell women what to do and what their place is.
posted by qcubed at 6:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [34 favorites]


Frankly I LIKE that Hillary is 48% cyborg
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [31 favorites]


I'm still bemused by the fact that Clinton felt the need to "walk back" her "deplorables" comment while Trump feels no need ever to walk back off anything he says.
posted by chavenet at 6:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [28 favorites]


frankly, i'm surprised that more candidates in general, worldwide, don't get sick more often. all that a/c, and then humidity outdoors, and then recycled frozen cabin air in the airplane, followed by lack of sleep and bad eating, and rinse and repeat.

anyway, better it happen now and be forgotten, rather than a few weeks or days before the election.
posted by bitteroldman at 6:47 AM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


I'm still bemused by the fact that Clinton felt the need to "walk back" her "deplorables" comment while Trump feels no need ever to walk back off anything he says.

Seriously. Personally, the only issue I saw with what she said is the questionable claim that only half of Trump's supporters are deplorable.
posted by Itaxpica at 6:48 AM on September 12, 2016 [30 favorites]


frankly, i'm surprised that more candidates in general, worldwide, don't get sick more often. all that a/c, and then humidity outdoors, and then recycled frozen cabin air in the airplane, followed by lack of sleep and bad eating, and rinse and repeat.

And the random germs of so many people. Seriously, it's like going to Disneyland every day for two years.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Pro tip:

"The first piece of advice was, 'Trust yourself. And know that ultimately regardless of the day-to-day news cycles and the noise that the American people need their president to succeed, regardless of political party.' Which I thought was very generous of [Bush]," Obama said. "The second piece of advice is, 'Always use Purell hand sanitizer.'"
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [68 favorites]


I am disturbed by hearing a newsbite that called Clinton's failing to disclose her pneumonia for 48 hours as "problematic." Like, what the ever-loving fuck?

Ugh, I just want this election over with because I am exhausted and everything about it is ugly.
posted by Kitteh at 6:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [40 favorites]


Thank god the conservative right finally cares about a woman's health...

Can we close this thread now? cooker girl just won.
posted by OmieWise at 6:52 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


In good news, Tim Kaine got a giant plane.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:53 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


So if Clinton's health ends up disqualifying her, does her VP get promoted to Presidential candidate? Is there a candidate for VP-in-waiting?
posted by acb at 6:53 AM on September 12, 2016


BREAKING: Trump releases anti-Trump ad

The ad doesn't just show Clinton calling half of Trump supporters deplorable, but actually shows her doing the laundry list of why - "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic" - while showing his supporters cheering. And doesn't even refute the charge.

This will be a big TV buy in OH, FL, NC and PA.
posted by chris24 at 6:53 AM on September 12, 2016 [99 favorites]


So if Clinton's health ends up disqualifying her

There is no such thing. Stop it.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [73 favorites]


Trump releases anti-Trump ad

Welp that's it folks I'm off the charts.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [51 favorites]


In good news, Tim Kaine got a giant plane.

Tim Kaine was asked about the new plane and replied "well I have a good plane joke but it'll go over your head!"
posted by Talez at 6:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [145 favorites]


The ad doesn't just show Clinton calling half of Trump supporters deplorable, but actually shows her doing the laundry list of why - "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic" - while showing his supporters cheering. And doesn't even refute the charge.

I think that's cargo cult advertising, based on Clinton's adverts.
posted by Francis at 6:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


In good news, Tim Kaine got a giant plane.

Just imagining how pleased he probably is makes me happy.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


BREAKING: Trump releases anti-Trump ad

Oh my, that is hilarious!
posted by mumimor at 6:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


MeFites, I'm still back on this thread. I’m on track to read the November 8th thread in July of 2018 or so.

On a more relevant note, "Clinton says something real, gets criticized." We all knew that headline was coming.
posted by Tehhund at 6:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [225 favorites]


MeFites, I'm still back on this thread

You made it out of the 100 Days thread! Congrats. We're all rooting for you.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:00 AM on September 12, 2016 [52 favorites]


BREAKING: Trump releases anti-Trump ad

That's not how his base is going to perceive it, since to them, being called a *-ist is many times worse than being *-ist. Not sure how it'll play to any remaining peesuadables out there, but it doesn't seem like an obvious own goal to me.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


That's not how his base is going to perceive it

Yes, but he already has his base. He needs to convince others. Reminding them of the awfulness of Trump and many of his supporters seems a weird way to do it.
posted by chris24 at 7:04 AM on September 12, 2016 [23 favorites]






Even if Clinton had invited a media representative into the doctor's office waiting room, there would have been criticism about how she wasn't handling it right. At that point, it would be "she wasn't transparent that she'd been feeling ill before this, why can't she just be open?". There's no winning. Even Jamelle Bouie feels the need to qualify his twitter comments on the subject of Trump v Clinton with comments about her not being transparent enough. Blech.

I deleted a big twitter rant myself but in short I'm just tired at seeing someone I identify with treated so poorly. Like it's always been there and it's 10x as worse for anyone who isn't white (I'm white) but it just feels worse to me right now. It's probably just that every last sniff (both figuratively and literally) of Clinton's is examined from every angle and critical narratives form instantly and many in the media so desperately want to not talk about certain stuff and just .. just .. exhausted.

But I did volunteer for the campaign again last might. So yay. I highly recommend it. It's concrete and better than stewing on twitter (though I do plenty of that too).
posted by R343L at 7:08 AM on September 12, 2016 [28 favorites]


Seriously, it's like going to Disneyland every day for two years.

Except most countries' election campaigns only last a few weeks because they don't make their governments have fixed terms.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:09 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


BREAKING: Trump releases anti-Trump ad

Who are these guys trying to go after? This seems to speak to the the hard base. Sometimes I can't figure out if his campaign just understands the psychology of 'ist' people or borderline 'ist' people more then I do so something like this makes sense or if it's them just 'thinking' they understand what works better.

Do you think the campaign would have tested this at all? Beyond anyone that is hardline voting for him anyway?

This just seem so strategically dumb, to the point where it makes me question whether it's a matter of them knowing something I don't or that they are really just this dumb.
posted by Jalliah at 7:09 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


via Kristen Anderson Lopez (author of "Let it Go" and other earworms):

You know, I was going to re-write the lyrics to "Let it Go" for the election, until I realized that -- other than this:
The hair glows orange on the clown tonight
Not a cluestick to be seen
A campaign of all frustration,
And it looks like I'm the queen.
...and...
Let me voooooote,
Let me voooooote!
Let me check a box on the form!

Let me voooooote,
let me vooooooote!
-- they pretty much already comprise the mallet-swinging smackdown that I would really love to see at the debates.

For reference:
The snow glows white on the mountain tonight
Not a footprint to be seen
A kingdom of isolation,
And it looks like I'm the queen.

The wind is howling like this swirling storm inside
Couldn't keep it in, heaven knows I tried!

Don't let them in, don't let them see
Be the good girl you always have to be
Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know
Well, now they know!

Let it go, let it go
Can't hold it back anymore
Let it go, let it go
Turn away and slam the door!

I don't care
What they're going to say
Let the storm rage on,
The cold never bothered me anyway!

It's funny how some distance
Makes everything seem small
And the fears that once controlled me
Can't get to me at all!

It's time to see what I can do
To test the limits and break through
No right, no wrong, no rules for me I'm free!

Let it go, let it go
I am one with the wind and sky
Let it go, let it go
You'll never see me cry!

Here I stand
And here I'll stay
Let the storm rage on!

posted by wenestvedt at 7:10 AM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


FBI and DoJ are now corrupt according to Trump.

At this point it'd be quicker if Trump would just give a list of groups that aren't corrupt. I have a feeling it would be a list of one: "me."
posted by papercake at 7:10 AM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


Still waiting on my absentee ballot. Bizarrely, I will be in the US in the city I used to live in before I moved to Canada on Election Day, but having no proof that I resided in Atlanta for a decade, I will not be able to vote while there. Here's hoping it shows up before I leave for my family visit because it isn't going to do me much good if it arrives in the post after I have left home.
posted by Kitteh at 7:11 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


He has his base but it's all about turnout now. An ad like this could be his team's way of pumping them up. "I'll show her who's deplorable." So much GOP messaging is about weaponizing perceived disrespect, and I think the ad does that.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:12 AM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


Who are these guys trying to go after?

I guess you could say playing hard to the base supports the idea he's more interested in solidifying a permanent RWNJ fan base for Trump TV than winning?

Or tone deaf incompetence. Trump's Razor says...
posted by chris24 at 7:12 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Matt Lauer is like a sentient lump of mashed potatoes given human form by a malign fairy. I have no idea why he would be sent to interview presidential candidates. I frankly don't even understand why he's on the Today Show, so anodyne and yet smarmy and incompetent because he is sentient mashed potatoes posing as an infotainer.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:13 AM on September 12, 2016 [74 favorites]


Ugh, I just want this election over with because I am exhausted and everything about it is ugly.

If only the ugliness would stop. It's going to be 4 more years of GOP obstructionism, fake scandals, wild conspiracy theories and misogyny. With that special tang of Clinton hatred.
posted by Bee'sWing at 7:13 AM on September 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


David Fahrenthold is doing a lot of press today about his (Pulitzer-worthy) Trump Fraud-ation story, so at least the WP isn't willing to let it be buried by the weekend's events.
posted by holgate at 7:13 AM on September 12, 2016 [20 favorites]


Clenched jaw and a forced smile, the American way!

Lie back and think of not being England
posted by beerperson at 7:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [43 favorites]


An ad like this could be his team's way of pumping them up.

Fair enough, but if he's still trying to motivate/secure his base with 58 days to go when his base is a minority of the electorate, he's not in great shape.
posted by chris24 at 7:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


MetaFilter: sentient mashed potatoes posing as an infotainer
posted by Gelatin at 7:15 AM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


That's not how his base is going to perceive it, since to them, being called a *-ist is many times worse than being *-ist. Not sure how it'll play to any remaining peesuadables out there, but it doesn't seem like an obvious own goal to me.

Last week, Trump started claiming Hillary was the racist/bigot because of her being so intolerant of Trump's supporters. This ad kind of reinforces that stance.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:15 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I frankly don't even understand why he's on the Today Show

He used to have good hair
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:15 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Jesus, I thought my BernieForever knucklehead Facebook friends had finally given up the dream, but now that Hillary has been replaced by a lookalike and the DNC is holding an emergency meeting to find a suitable replacement they just know their guy will be tapped.

I'm not even making that up, but I am exaggerating the lookalike claims.
posted by dirtdirt at 7:16 AM on September 12, 2016 [30 favorites]


According to my Facebook several people are switching TO HRC because of PneumoniaGate (instead of Stein/not voting), because of her demonstrated ability to soldier on through illness. Then again, my Facebook seems to be some sort of brain trust compared to what most report, so.
posted by zutalors! at 7:18 AM on September 12, 2016 [62 favorites]


WaPo: The American people agree with Clinton: Trump is a bigot. This new poll confirms it.

"The Post poll, which found Clinton leading Trump by five points among likely voters nationwide, also found that 60 percent of Americans believe Trump “is biased against women and minorities,” with 48 percent believing that strongly. According to the crosstabs, college educated whites believe this by 57-41, and college educated white women — a crucial demographic that the campaigns are fighting over — believe it by 61-39.

What’s more, majorities of college educated white men and non-college white women also believe this. Indeed, as James Downie puts it: “At this point, the only group of voters that doesn’t think Trump is biased is white men without a college degree.”
posted by chris24 at 7:18 AM on September 12, 2016 [80 favorites]


Last week, Trump started claiming Hillary was the racist/bigot because of her being so intolerant of Trump's supporters.

I said this late in the last thread, but it boggles the mind that Trump's campaign is attacking Clinton for being politically incorrect.

Still, it must come as a relief to our lazy, incompetent media, as it lets them avoid mentioning how Clinton's critique was fundamentally correct.
posted by Gelatin at 7:20 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Speaking of Trump's Razor, the two most indispensable Trumpologists I know of -- Josh Marshall and Jacob Weisberg -- discussed the Razor on a recent episode of Trumpcast.

Now I assume all good MeFites are already listening to Trumpcast (and if you're not: get off the island), but the episode is a good, brief (20 min.) introduction to the Razor.

I'm really hoping this concept goes mainstream, I think it's a great way to get people to start cutting through the bs and genuinely looking at how horribly incompetent that guy is.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:21 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]




Question I've been wanting to ask for a bit:

Are there other examples in history, especially American history, of non-politicians being elected (or otherwise ascending) to the executive seat? Is there a name for this?
posted by rebent at 7:23 AM on September 12, 2016


Charlie Pierce: The Truth About This Alleged 'Basket of Deplorables'
Hell, we've been grading Republicans on a curve for decades. We graded Reagan on a curve when he burbled about trees and air pollution. We graded him on a curve during Iran Contra on the grounds that he was too dim to know what was going on around him. We graded W on a curve for the whole 2000 campaign when he didn't know Utah from Uzbekistan, but Al Gore knew too much stuff and what fun was he, anyway? We graded Republicans on a curve when they attached themselves to the remnants of American apartheid, when they played footsie with the militias out west and with the heirs to the White Citizens Councils in the South. We graded them on a curve every time they won a campaign behind Karl Rove or Lee Atwater or the late Terry Dolan back in the 1970s. We talked about how they were "reaching out" to disillusioned white voters who'd suffered in the changing economy, as though African-American workers didn't get slugged harder than anyone else by deindustrialization. We pretended not to notice how racial animus was the accelerant for the fire of discontent in the "Reagan Democrats." That was, and is, grading on a moral curve.

We graded Republicans on a intellectual curve when they embraced a fundamentalist splinter of American Protestantism and brought themselves to a pass in which they are the 21st Century Know Nothings. They have followed movement conservatism to the point where they can ignore science and promote creationism and supply side economic foolishness simply because they can sell it to the same audiences that gobble up the red meat that's been marinating since George Wallace ran for president. Because they are graded on a curve, they can still claim to be shocked when the purist product of all of that work hijacks the nomination and gives the entire game away. Of course, Trump has been graded on a curve. If the electorate hadn't graded modern conservatism on an intellectual curve, it would've flunked out of Human College decades ago.

It is timidity now that grades this ridiculous man running this ridiculous campaign on the biggest curve of all—the timidity of a people who have declined the responsibilities of serious citizenship and the abdication of its duty under the Constitution of a putatively free press too timid to call them on it. That is the political correctness that truly is hurting the country and may yet hurt it beyond all repair. There's only one candidate now running however gingerly against that.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:23 AM on September 12, 2016 [159 favorites]


Are there other examples in history, especially American history, of non-politicians being elected (or otherwise ascending) to the executive seat?

Well you have Grant and Eisenhower.
posted by dismas at 7:23 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]




Tom Sullivan at Hullabaloo reminds us about HW Bush vomiting on people during his reelection campaign, his son choking on a pretzel, Reagan getting cancer surgery, and numerous other instances of Republicans being unwell in office or while running.

Not that anyone in the HILARY PRETTY MUCH ALREADY DEAD camp will care.
posted by emjaybee at 7:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Are there other examples in history, especially American history, of non-politicians being elected (or otherwise ascending) to the executive seat? Is there a name for this?

Four Presidents held no elected positions before their presidencies: Major General Zachary Taylor, General (Hiram) Ulysses S. Grant, Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover, and General of the Army Dwight Eisenhower.

There isn't really a term for it.
posted by Etrigan at 7:25 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Are there other examples in history, especially American history, of non-politicians being elected (or otherwise ascending) to the executive seat? Is there a name for this?

You mean like a C-list movie actor becoming Governor of California, then President, then President again, coasting on personality and PR over substance?

Nah. Too far-fetched.
posted by delfin at 7:26 AM on September 12, 2016 [32 favorites]


non-politicians being elected (or otherwise ascending) to the executive seat?

Eisenhower?
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:27 AM on September 12, 2016


According to my Facebook several people are switching TO HRC because of PneumoniaGate (instead of Stein/not voting), because of her demonstrated ability to soldier on through illness. Then again, my Facebook seems to be some sort of brain trust compared to what most report, so.

Yeah people are weird. One person who has been posting a lot of anti-Hillary stuff including BS 'health' stuff seems to have change their tune now that Hillary is actually sick. It's the same message, wow she really is sick and look what she has been doing. Pneumonia sucks.

Maybe because pneumonia is something that is familiar to a lot of people? They have personal experience with it so it's more real and relatable?

I've been doing my best to avoid media because I just don't want to see this story play out so I don't know how widespread this [articular response is to it but I have caught whiffs of it here and there.

Again people are weird.
posted by Jalliah at 7:29 AM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


Major General Zachary Taylor, General (Hiram) Ulysses S. Grant, Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover, and General of the Army Dwight Eisenhower

That is ... not a list we want to extend. Even if the fourth didn't do badly so far as I am aware.
posted by Francis at 7:29 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Given his history of poisoning political opponents I wouldn't be surprised if Putin is behind Clinton's health problems.
posted by Flashman at 7:30 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Dammit you guys, my files at work have been inaccessible for like four days because a co-worker downloaded a virus (don't get me started) but today, of all days, everything is back to normal and I can go back to my computer-necessary work.

Why couldn't this new thread have happened last week??
posted by cooker girl at 7:31 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


The Hillary handlers kept the press and public in the dark for some time, stating hot weather etc when in fact it was more than that. Hillary is hammered for being a "trimmer," and her people should start being more forthright. And Hillary should not ever go out in public with dark sunglasses, a sign, perhaps of hiding something, esp. when all those around her are not wearing sun glasses.

The Trump supporters have accused her of concealed illnesses and perhaps now we will get a full medical report on her health. Will we get the same from Trump from a real doctor?
posted by Postroad at 7:32 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump Doesn't Want Moderators at the Presidential Debates:
"Let Hillary and I sit there and just debate," he said. "I think the system is being rigged so it's going to be a very unfair debate. I can see it happening right now because everybody was saying 'he was soft on Trump,' and now the new person is going to try and be really hard on Trump just to show the establishment what he can do. I think it's very unfair what they are doing. I think we should have a debate with no moderator, just Hillary and I sitting there talking."
posted by kirkaracha at 7:32 AM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


Flashman, I thought of that too! But I really don't want to to think that could happen.
posted by emjaybee at 7:32 AM on September 12, 2016


Maybe because pneumonia is something that is familiar to a lot of people?

Expect the Trump campaign to lob some vague insinuations that she doesn't have Regular American Pneumonia but that she's hiding her real illness: The Moon Sniffles (the sniffles from the moon)
posted by Greg Nog at 7:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [23 favorites]


I would be fine with Clinton and Trump sitting there talking, provided they had equal time buzzers. She would crush him.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


college educated white women — a crucial demographic that the campaigns are fighting over

Is the Trump campaign actually fighting for college educated white women? I know that's typically a swing demographic but I see zero evidence Trump is actually trying to get them (or I should say "us").
posted by lunasol at 7:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Hillary's biggest problem is that she doesn't sell herself enough. She's done a ton of good stuff, but the constant attacks put her on the defensive, which she doesn't do well.

She should spin the stumble as "There's a lot of Americans that go to work even though they're not feeling well, because they have to, because our health care system, while filled with great care, isn't accessible to them. If they can't call out sick, the least I could do is soldier on."

And "Am I going to walk back my deplorable comments? Look, there's video of some of his supporters calling for me to be arrested, killed and what have you. Honestly, deplorable was the most diplomatic way of calling them out."

She really needs to do stuff like that and stop apologizing, because she's got little to apologize for.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [164 favorites]


That is ... not a list we want to extend. Even if the fourth didn't do badly so far as I am aware.

Whenever someone expresses the sentiment that “American needs more leaders with STEM backgrounds”, remind them that Hoover was an engineer.
posted by Fongotskilernie at 7:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


(By the way, apropos of the "Let It Go" lyrics quoted earlier: The Indianapolis Symphony does an annual holiday concert, and at one of them they had a male vocal group perform that song a capella. It was then I realized it's a coming out song.)
posted by Gelatin at 7:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Given his history of poisoning political opponents I wouldn't be surprised if Putin is behind Clinton's health problems.

For that matter I won't be surprised when Trump eats a polonium breakfast on the morning after losing the election.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 7:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Welp that's it folks I'm off the charts.

It left out the Vantablack level: I Literally Cannot Even
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Of course Trump doesn't want a moderator. He hasn't had to take anyone telling him to be quiet since his old man died.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:37 AM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


I think we should have a debate with no moderator, just Hillary and I sitting there talking.

I don't know what he pictures in his head when he says "just Hillary and I sitting there talking," but I'll bet it's bone-chilling.
posted by PlusDistance at 7:38 AM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


Whenever someone expresses the sentiment that “American needs more leaders with STEM backgrounds”, remind them that Hoover was an engineer.

Herbert Hoover is one of the best examples of the Peter Principle I can think of. He was by all accounts quite a good engineer, and topped his successful career with significant humanitarian work after World War I. His record prior to the Great Crash was admirable; he -- and his free-market philosophy, I might add -- simply proved utterly unable to mitigate the burgeoning Great Depression.
posted by Gelatin at 7:40 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


just Hillary and I sitting there talking

There is a non-zero chance he could break down in a hissy fit about not getting an invite to Chelsea's wedding.
posted by cmfletcher at 7:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


So, can someone please take the keyboard away from H.A. Goodman, for his own sake?
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


So, can someone please take the keyboard away from H.A. Goodman, for his own sake?

WOLVERINES!
posted by tonycpsu at 7:42 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary's biggest problem is that she doesn't sell herself enough. She's done a ton of good stuff, but the constant attacks put her on the defensive, which she doesn't do well.

I don't think she's ever been comfortable promoting herself. She'd much rather speak to issues, and leave herself out of it. She's never seemed to be totally at-ease with public speaking, either. She knows it's part of the job and does a great job at it all, but I think she'd rather just sit down and get to work, rather than blow her own horn.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


I assume this is the same strain (mycoplasmic pneumonia) that's tearing through the northeast right now. I'm just getting over it, my kid had it a few weeks ago, and my wife may or may not be coming down with it. It's bacterial, so the doc gives you a 5-day supply of azithromycin and sends you on your way, but... I've been flat on my ass for like a week and a half. If you go read about it on professional point-of-care resources, you see dryly-written commentary like "Patient complaints usually exceed objective findings" because it's just a nasty cough, but holy shit, dude, you feel like you're on death's front door. It knocks you the hell down, drains you of any ability to do anything without hacking up a goddamned lung, and it persists forever. Last Monday, I slept for 20 of the 24 hours in a solar cycle. The fact that Hilary has been out campaigning with this suggests that she is, in fact, thirty feet tall with a blue ox who follows her around.
posted by Mayor West at 7:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [158 favorites]


The whole no moderator thing is just another example of him being all bluster and BS. He's a bully who can't handle things if he doesn't have control. It's so weaksauce and I just don't get how so many people can't see through the illusion.

IT'S SO OBVIOUS. ARRGH
posted by Jalliah at 7:45 AM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


His record prior to the Great Crash was admirable; he -- and his free-market philosophy, I might add -- simply proved utterly unable to mitigate the burgeoning Great Depression.

Here's a great essay on how "Hoover the activist technocrat, who seemed to want to get the government's fingerprints all over everything, suddenly turn[ed] into the embodiment of laissez-faire — a 'fat Coolidge,' as H.L. Mencken put it — at precisely the moment that the economy collapsed and government intervention was most needed."
posted by Iridic at 7:46 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


So, 9 minutes after I made that comment above about that WaPo article on the Trump Foundation, @HillaryClinton tweeted
"Trump uses his foundation to pay for things with other people's money. http://wapo.st/2c0q7ki"
So yeah, really, read that article. It's shocking. And thanks to Tonycpsu for originally linking it in the last thread.
posted by cashman at 7:46 AM on September 12, 2016 [40 favorites]


ChurchHatesTucker: Hillary has canceled a west coast trip after yesterday's events, but is still scheduled for Ellen DeGeneres' show on Wednesday

I'm looking forward to her dancing with Ellen again, but hopefully something more energetic than her last performance* (no diss, she's just trying to mimic dance moves and looks pretty awkward, but I love her happiness in that moment)

* Also, DEAR FSKING GODS - that clip was published by the AP on YouTube on Sep. 8, 2015, OVER A YEAR AGO, and the title? "Hillary Clinton Talks Email, Dances With Ellen" Yes, the email "scandal" is that old (and Hillary quickly says what she should have done, and says she's sorry for her actions. BAM! End of story ... *sigh*)


chavenet: I'm still bemused by the fact that Clinton felt the need to "walk back" her "deplorables" comment while Trump feels no need ever to walk back off anything he says.

Why ever admit you said something bad, when you can just pretend you never said it in the first place?
posted by filthy light thief at 7:46 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


found that 60 percent of Americans believe Trump “is biased against women and minorities,” with 48 percent believing that strongly.

And 50% of those who believed it strongly citing his bigotry as the basis for their support of Trump, I'll wager. Finally, Bigot-Americans have found their champion. La Luta Continua, bro.
posted by spitbull at 7:46 AM on September 12, 2016


thirty feet tall with a blue ox who follows her around.

I can't even deal with how cute this would be.

Also, is the ox named Tim? Does it make dad jokes?
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:47 AM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


I would be fine with Clinton and Trump sitting there talking, provided they had equal time buzzers. She would crush him.

It should just be a game of chess.
posted by beerperson at 7:48 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


You know what bugs me about this?

Pneumonia is contagious.

Hillary knowingly continued a campaign schedule when she knew she was potentially making everyone around her sick, without alerting anyone to the fact she was contagious.

Yeah, I know, so what, no big deal, pneumonia. But I started on autoimmune suppressing drugs this year, and it's made me very conscious of how cavalier people are about spreading disease. A good bout of pneumonia at the wrong time will kill me, so I have to be careful.

I wonder how many people she's met in the past few days? I wonder how many of them are sick now?

This was incredibly inconsiderate, and impressively irresponsible. If you've got pneumonia, I don't care who you are, stay home. If you can't stay home, let everyone you come into contact with know you're sick and contagious, so they can manage their own health as they need to.
posted by MrVisible at 7:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


Not sure how it'll play to any remaining persuadables out there

In the context of this election, at this stage, "persuadables" are essentially those in the gap between RV and LV in the polling screen. There's a chance that Clinton's comments will motivate more people who justify their prejudices ("it's not racist to..." etc.) and there's a chance that Trump has given outright bigots an R to support when they would otherwise stay at home, but typically it's been harder for the Dems to get all of their RV support to the polls.
posted by holgate at 7:49 AM on September 12, 2016


I think this is the blue ox reference.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I don't think she's ever been comfortable promoting herself. She'd much rather speak to issues, and leave herself out of it. She's never seemed to be totally at-ease with public speaking, either. She knows it's part of the job and does a great job at it all, but I think she'd rather just sit down and get to work, rather than blow her own horn.

Since paying more attention to her this election cycle, I'd totally agree. She's not a great politician in the sense of easily and constantly tooting her own horn. But she's wicked smart and driven and seems to work well with others away from the cameras and microphones. That's a huge plus in my book.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


cashman: So yeah, really, read that article. It's shocking.

Shocking, or classic Trump? It actually makes me think of this cartoon that oneswellfoop linked in the last thread. Supporters of Hillary's Opponent will say "what a smart move," until that same move turns into the US being beholden to Russia and China, and if somehow gets his way, Mexico for that wall, as they pay for things for the US.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:50 AM on September 12, 2016


It should just be a game of chess.

OMG. Trump would totally throw a hissy and throw the board off the table when he can't even remember what way the pieces move and Hillary has to keep reminding him, 'No Donald, bishop moves diagonal...'

The picture of him doing it is so vivid.
posted by Jalliah at 7:51 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


You know what bugs me about this?

Pneumonia is contagious.


Somehow, I doubt that Hillary would be the person to act without thought of her impacts to others. I like to think that she and her campaign discussed how she deal with that. Her opponent, on the other hand ... I think he'd be happy to make other people sick.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:52 AM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


The whole no moderator thing is just another example of him being all bluster and BS.

Complaining in advance about how "rigged" and "unfair" it is is Trump's way not only of working the refs, but also making excuses in advance for him losing.

It's the same with his dangerous implications that the election itself is going to be rigged, but it's all hardly the rhetoric of the kind of winner Trump likes to portray himself as. Somehow, Trump knows he's in for a humiliating loss, and he's working hard to save face.
posted by Gelatin at 7:52 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


#TrumpDiaper
[Fake][?]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:54 AM on September 12, 2016


Frankly, Donny Trump's mental incompetence from the early-onset dementia is the real health-concern in this election.
posted by mikelieman at 7:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


MrVisible: Pneumonia is contagious.

From WebMD:
Spreading pneumonia to others

If your pneumonia is caused by a virus or bacteria, you may spread the infection to other people while you are contagious. How long you are contagious depends on what is causing the pneumonia and whether you get treatment. You may be contagious for several days to a week.

If you get antibiotics, you usually cannot spread the infection to others after a day of treatment.
Emphasis mine.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:55 AM on September 12, 2016 [62 favorites]


If you get antibiotics, you usually cannot spread the infection to others after a day of treatment.

Sure, although she did have a huge fundraiser the same day that she was diagnosed.

I'm sure she was super careful, and I understand why she forged along.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:56 AM on September 12, 2016


Frankly, Donny Trump's mental incompetence from the early-onset dementia is the real health-concern in this election.

Y'know, now that you mention it, his behavior really does mimic my mother's behavior as she was starting her descent into full-blown dementia. Scary.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


This was incredibly inconsiderate, and impressively irresponsible. If you've got pneumonia, I don't care who you are, stay home

That works, say, if you have sick-days and health insurance. I think the millions who don't have those resources see Hillary's commitment to her job as relatable and humanizing.
posted by mikelieman at 7:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [38 favorites]


Complaining in advance about how "rigged" and "unfair" it is is Trump's way not only of working the refs, but also making excuses in advance for him losing.

Bingo. Lester Holt could massage Trump's temples the whole debate and Trump people would still be yelling about how things were biased against Trump. It's a way of focusing on the refs/umps, as Gelatin says. I hope Holt doesn't care and is unfazed.
posted by cashman at 7:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


So, I've been thinking about Seth Meyers cold reading Trump (previously posted by ChurchHatesTucker), and I first suggested that his words get re-read in a synthetic "robot" voice. Then I thought, it would be more fun to hear his lines read by Vincent Adultman.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:58 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Y'know, now that you mention it, his behavior really does mimic my mother's behavior as she was starting her descent into full-blown dementia. Scary.

There's a Trump family history of it, too. It killed his father Fred.

Considering his inconsistent statements, and episodes of word-salad, I'm not just making a joke. It's a real concern.
posted by mikelieman at 7:58 AM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


NoxAeternum: "So, can someone please take the keyboard away from H.A. Goodman, for his own sake?"

Is he really dumb enough that he thinks that the democratic party can just swap out candidates after the nomination?
posted by octothorpe at 7:58 AM on September 12, 2016


FBI and DoJ are now corrupt according to Trump.

The purges begin in January.
posted by klanawa at 7:58 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


You know what bugs me about this?

Pneumonia is contagious.


I admit that I'm only projecting from my own recent bout of it, but if she does indeed have walking pneumonia (colloquial term for bacterial mycoplasmic pneumonia), then she was sick with it for a long time before it turned into pneumonia. During that time, you get a low-grade fever, chills, aches, and a general sense of malaise. Normal people go sleep for a few days and hope it goes away. The folks who don't get any paid sick leave, who she's desperately trying to help, go to their jobs and soldier on. Hilary keeps right on campaigning, because it's just a cold, and life goes on, and there's an election in 56 days, y'know?

You don't get the cough until the infection gets into your lungs, 3-21 days later. So when she started coughing (and became actively contagious), she stopped going to public events. I'm not sure how much more we can ask of someone.
posted by Mayor West at 7:59 AM on September 12, 2016 [68 favorites]


Lester Holt is a much more professional journalist than someone like Lauer, I feel pretty good about his performance.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:59 AM on September 12, 2016


Pushing the angle about Clinton's health is so weird to me, mostly because I can't imagine a single thing that could come out about her health that would change my vote. She could have fucking died yesterday and I'd still vote for her corpse over Trump. If you took an above ground pool and taped signs saying "Yes" and "No" to opposite ends and let the direction her floating, lifeless body drifted in indicate answers, I'd still trust that decision-making process more than Trump.

She's a fine candidate and I hope (and have little if any reason not to believe) she's well. But there's not a goddamned thing that could come out on that front that would make me choose Trump instead.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:00 AM on September 12, 2016 [155 favorites]


I think the millions who don't have those resources see Hillary's commitment to her job as relatable and humanizing.

It seems like MrVisible's comment is speaking less to "her campaigning with pneumonia is making her less relatable" and more "she's actively spreading pathogens".
posted by Greg Nog at 8:00 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Can we not go with HILARY CLINTON PURPOSEFULLY INFECTS EAST COAST WITH PNEUMONIA as a serious line of discussion? I assume she washed her hands frequently, got on antibiotics as soon as possible and tried not to cough on anyone.

And had she quarantined herself, then we'd be wringing our hands at the "bad optics" of it.

She literally can't win the narrative, because whenever a woman gets close to winning, the narrative changes and the goalposts move. I expect that from the media, but we could maybe not do that here.

She seems like a conscientious person with a long record of giving a flip about her fellow human beings. To fret that she callously and irresponsibly infected people is ludicrous.
posted by emjaybee at 8:00 AM on September 12, 2016 [144 favorites]


Seconding all of the "who cares" re Clinton's health and adding a dollop of "I'd obviously vote for Tim Kaine over Trump so..."
posted by prefpara at 8:01 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


guys what if hillary IS the zika virus
posted by beerperson at 8:01 AM on September 12, 2016 [46 favorites]


Is he really dumb enough that he thinks that the democratic party can just swap out candidates after the nomination?

You will never go broke underestimating HA Goodman.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


A February Public Policy Polling survey found “Trump’s support in South Carolina is built on a base of voters among whom religious and racial intolerance pervades.” What the poll found about those South Carolina supporters’ beliefs was truly shocking:

• Eighty percent of likely Trump primary voters supported Trump’s proposed ban on Muslims.

• Sixty-two percent supported creating a national database of Muslims and 40 percent supported shutting down mosques in the United States.

• Thirty-eight percent wished the South had won the Civil War.

• Thirty-three percent thought the practice of Islam should be illegal in this country.

• Thirty-two percent supported the policy of Japanese internment during World War II.

• Thirty-one percent would support a ban on homosexuals entering the country.

On Saturday, Clinton issued a statement pointing out that “I regret saying ‘half’ — that was wrong.” Place the percentage where you will — or don’t — but the fact is indisputable.

I understand that people recoil at the notion that they are part of a pejorative basket. I understand the reflexive resistance to having your negative beliefs disrobed and your sense of self dressed down.

I understand your outrage, but I’m unmoved by it. If the basket fits …
About the ‘Basket of Deplorables’
posted by y2karl at 8:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [59 favorites]




If two of the following core mental functions seem impaired then it is time to seek medical help: Memory, communication and language, ability to focus and pay attention, reasoning and judgment, visual perception.

Trump’s interview with the Washington Post editorial board in March about using a tactical nuclear weapon against ISIS demonstrates 4 of them.
TRUMP: I don’t want to use, I don’t want to start the process of nuclear. Remember the one thing that everybody has said, I’m a counterpuncher. Rubio hit me. Bush hit me. When I said low energy, he’s a low-energy individual, he hit me first. I spent, by the way, he spent 18 million dollars’ worth of negative ads on me. That’s putting [MUFFLED]…

RYAN: This is about ISIS. You would not use a tactical nuclear weapon against ISIS?

TRUMP: I’ll tell you one thing, this is a very good-looking group of people here. Could I just go around so I know who the hell I’m talking to?

posted by mikelieman at 8:03 AM on September 12, 2016 [45 favorites]


HA Goodman is stupid and malign. Such common bedfellows.
posted by holborne at 8:03 AM on September 12, 2016


If anything, I don't think Secretary Clinton's 'deplorable' comments go far enough. Supporting Trump is deplorable, full stop. Not all of his followers are literal fascist, White-nationalist genocidal monsters, but it's probably in the teens, which is terrifying.

Right now the person I wish the Democrats had nominated was the Hillary Clinton of the right-wing fever swamps: a crusading radical leftist lesbian with a ruthless streak a mile wide willing to do anything to crawl her way to the top so she can remake America as a European style social-democracy. Quelle horreur!
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:04 AM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


This was incredibly inconsiderate, and impressively irresponsible. If you've got pneumonia, I don't care who you are, stay home

Yes, she's fighting to stop fascism in America in the home stretch of a campaign, but her fighting through an illness for less than 48 hours when her staff was surely aware is truly the scandal.
posted by chris24 at 8:07 AM on September 12, 2016 [56 favorites]


> How Many Giant Portraits of Donald Trump Does Donald Trump Own?

If he actually gets elected he'll forget about most of the stuff he campaigned about and concentrate on replacing the Washington monument and Lincoln memorial with giant statues of himself. Here's a preliminary artist's rendering.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:08 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Apparently Clinton is on antibiotics. So her pneumonia is bacterial. I am not a doctor, but the people who wrote this are, and they say: bacterial pneumonia is far less contagious than cold or flu. Is she putting her close aids at risk of infection? Yes, but they're also all a bit younger than her. She's probably not putting random people she comes across at a high risk of infection, especially if she keeps her hands clean and doesn't cough right into their mouths.
posted by dis_integration at 8:10 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


If he actually gets elected he'll forget about most of the stuff he campaigned about and concentrate on replacing the Washington monument and Lincoln memorial with giant statues of himself.

This was more what I pictured
posted by Mayor West at 8:10 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


There are lots of rw whack jobs tweeting about how there is a Clinton body double. I don't have time to directly link them all so I am linking to a Metro.UK article - not sure if that is a rag, but the tweets are real, I've seen 'em.
Conspiracy theorists think Hillary Clinton has been replaced with a body double after her collapse.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:11 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


From the second paragraph of the NYT column y2karl just cited, a perfect example of how the so-called "liberal media" grades Trump and the Republican Party in general on a curve:
Candidates do themselves a tremendous disservice when they attack voters rather than campaigns. Whatever advantage is procured through the rallying of one’s own base is outweighed by what will be read as divisiveness and disdain.
Hogwash. Trump attacks Democratic constituencies all the time. Sarah Palin famously referred to rural America, where a minority of the American populace resides, as "real America." Republicans have sniffed about "San Francisco values" and "New York liberals" for time out of mind. Republicans attack liberals, givernment workers, union members, teachers, the press, the poor, gays, women -- fellow Americans all, many voters among them -- habitually.

But when Clinton can be spun as doing so, the New York Times op-ed page raises its voice in protest. Feh.
posted by Gelatin at 8:11 AM on September 12, 2016 [67 favorites]


If you think about it, a presidential candidate traveling all over the country would be a perfect disease vector. Hillary of course wouldn't weaponize this, but I bet Trump went down to Mexico just to give Peña Nieto smallpox or something.
posted by rmless at 8:12 AM on September 12, 2016


You don't get the cough until the infection gets into your lungs, 3-21 days later. So when she started coughing (and became actively contagious), she stopped going to public events. I'm not sure how much more we can ask of someone.

Letting people know you're sick so that those of us who are immunocompromised can avoid you would be good.
posted by MrVisible at 8:13 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Conspiracy theorists think Hillary Clinton has been replaced with a body double after her collapse.

This election cycle is so absurd that I'm not even surprised that this guy is basically a mainstream voice now.
posted by dis_integration at 8:14 AM on September 12, 2016


OFFICIAL REQUEST: Please stop maligning dementia sufferers by comparing them to Trump. It is kind of a huge bummer. Diaper jokes are a different story imho.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


If you're worried about catching something from Hillary Clinton at a rope line at one of her campaign events you should probably be much more worried about the thousands of other people around you at the event who you'd never be able to know the health status of.
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [106 favorites]


her fighting through an illness for less than 48 hours when her staff was surely aware is truly the scandal.

It's not a scandal, it's just a bit irresponsible. Just as one can criticize her policy positions while still supporting her candidacy (even wholeheartedly!), one can also criticize some of her campaign decisions.
posted by jedicus at 8:15 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


If he actually gets elected he'll forget about most of the stuff he campaigned about and concentrate on replacing the Washington monument and Lincoln memorial with giant statues of himself.

Kind of like this?
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:15 AM on September 12, 2016


But when Clinton can be spun as doing so, the New York Times op-ed page raises its voice in protest. Feh.

What do you expect from the paper whose public editor who thought this was a sensible response to criticism about false equivalency.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:16 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


There are lots of rw whack jobs tweeting about how there is a Clinton body double

I made a joke about them swapping out Trump with someone in a toupee in a previous thread. I think it speaks volumes to how satire proof this election has become that it is now an actual conspiracy theory on the other side.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:17 AM on September 12, 2016


If you think about it, a presidential candidate traveling all over the country would be a perfect disease vector.

if this election eventually turns into a zombie outbreak 2016 will finally make sense
posted by beerperson at 8:18 AM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


The odds have shifted somewhat on the betting markets. Not surprisingly, money is going onto Trump. A little more surprising is that bets are being placed on Biden, Kaine and Sanders to win the presidency - not sure how that is possible at this stage in candidate procedures.

Biden, Kaine and Sanders could form an Emerson, Lake and Palmer tribute band if things don't work out, perhaps. I don't know.
posted by Wordshore at 8:18 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Letting people know you're sick so that those of us who are immunocompromised can avoid you would be good.

I say this gently, as somebody whose husband was significantly immunocompromised due to chemotherapy for an extended period, and as somebody who was personally immunocompromised for a while pretty recently -- we were specifically and repeatedly told not to go to large indoor gatherings of people while those conditions were in effect.

Both a rope line for a major candidate and a campaign event of any size would definitely have fallen into that category, particularly for my husband, who was told not to go anywhere where there were more than 10 people or so within a confined space.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:19 AM on September 12, 2016 [74 favorites]


All day yesterday during the 9/11 remembrances, I found myself thinking about Sarah Vowell's observation that Republicans love to exploit the memory of 9/11 even as they have little but contempt for the places that actually suffered attacks. "They wrap themselves in our attack and then they leave and talk about what snobs we are. If the East Coast Is American enough For Al-Qaeda, It should be American enough for them."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:20 AM on September 12, 2016 [53 favorites]


There are lots of rw whack jobs tweeting about how there is a Clinton body double.

I love a nutter conspiracy theory as much as anyone, and will do my best to spread them around irresponsibly in aid of "humour", but the skinny legs thing? Guys, adjust the V-hold on your teevee.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:20 AM on September 12, 2016


If you're worried about catching something from Hillary Clinton at a rope line at one of her campaign events you should probably be much more worried about the thousands of other people around you at the event who you'd never be able to know the health status of.

If I had pneumonia, and I was going to spend days in contact with thousands of people, most of whom wanted to see me personally, I would divulge my health status in order to make sure no-one vulnerable to the disease contracted it.

I don't think that's a very controversial moral standard.
posted by MrVisible at 8:21 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mom is on Facebook for half of the day. She doesn't curate like I do.

She read this morning that not only is it a body double but that the DNC is frantically trying to find someone to replace her. I'm guessing because it's only a matter of time before she keels over completely or something.

Mom doesn't believe this of course she just let me know it was out there.
posted by Jalliah at 8:21 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Y'know, now that you mention it, his behavior really does mimic my mother's behavior as she was starting her descent into full-blown dementia. Scary.

There's a Trump family history of it, too. It killed his father Fred.

Considering his inconsistent statements, and episodes of word-salad, I'm not just making a joke. It's a real concern.


I've been saying this since March.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:21 AM on September 12, 2016


I don't think that's a very controversial moral standard.

You might not think so, but you're wrong.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:22 AM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


we were specifically and repeatedly told not to go to large indoor gatherings of people while those conditions were in effect.

Victim blaming aside, it's also quite possible that some people on her staff (including staff who do not normally interact with crowds) may be immunocompromised. Or be elderly, or have very young children, etc.
posted by jedicus at 8:22 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


(slightly off-topic but still political, madamjujujive's link led me to this: Robert Mugabe unveils statue of himself and it ‘looks like a Simpsons character’)
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:22 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]




it's also quite possible that some people on her staff (including staff who do not normally interact with crowds) may be immunocompromised. Or be elderly, or have very young children, etc.

And you knew that her health status was withheld from them. . . how?
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


I don't think that's a very controversial moral standard.

It wouldn't be, under normal circumstances. But (as mentioned upthread and everywhere): she is actively trying to prevent fascism in America.
posted by witchen at 8:25 AM on September 12, 2016 [41 favorites]


She found out she had pneumonia on Friday, we don't know what time, we don't know how big of a window she had for cancelling the event she had that day (I believe it was that evening). Did she have any other campaign events since Friday that would justify the rush to condemn her? Because prior to Friday, she didn't know it was pneumonia, and while it would be great if she were omniscient and had the power to control time and space so that she could go back in time and rectify the situation, obviously she cannot, and to continue acting like she did this deliberately or that she was actually so careless as to knowingly go out to infect people is kinda weird.
posted by palomar at 8:25 AM on September 12, 2016 [41 favorites]


slightly off-topic

oh my dude the idea of anything in these threads being on- or off-topic long ago got on a horse and strapped an Acme rocket to the horse and blasted across the desert in search of a roadrunner to kill and consume
posted by Greg Nog at 8:25 AM on September 12, 2016 [80 favorites]


I was going to spend days in contact with thousands of people, most of whom wanted to see me personally

She's not in contact with thousands. She's in the same block or building. If LeBron James is sick at a game, does he put at risk 16,000 in the arena? She put at risk, for 24 hours, her immediate staff who were undoubtedly aware.
posted by chris24 at 8:25 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oh FFS. Here we go again, focusing on the banal when there is literally a misogynistic, racist, fascist person running for President of the United States of America.

I mean, really. Really? REALLY?!

Yes. It's banal. Deal with it.
posted by cooker girl at 8:26 AM on September 12, 2016 [113 favorites]


Trump Is Pat Buchanan With Better Timing:
If you’re looking for the roots of Trump’s political message, you can find yourself remembering the story of the blind men who describe what an elephant is like by touching different parts of the beast’s body (“It’s a rope,” “a tree branch,” “a wall.”). There’s a dose of Ross Perot, the billionaire businessman who declared himself free from the taint of elective politics. There’s the anti-elitist scorn of George Wallace, not to mention several spoonfuls of Wallace’s racial and ethnic resentment. There’s the rallying of the forgotten captured by Louisiana’s Huey Long back in the 1930s.

But to a remarkable extent, just about all of the themes of Trump’s campaign can be found in Buchanan’s insurgent primary run a quarter-century ago: the grievances, legitimate and otherwise; the dark portrait of a nation whose culture and sovereignty are threatened from without and within; the sense that the elites of both parties have turned their backs on hard-working loyal, traditional Americans. The limits of that campaign—and the success of Trump’s, in seizing the nomination of a major political party—are a measure of just how much our politics have changed in the past 25 years.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:27 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


All day yesterday during the 9/11 remembrances, I found myself thinking about Sarah Vowell's observation that Republicans love to exploit the memory of 9/11 even as they have little but contempt for the places that actually suffered attacks. "They wrap themselves in our attack and then they leave and talk about what snobs we are. If the East Coast Is American enough For Al-Qaeda, It should be American enough for them."

Trump himself made that point in the 14 January debate.

It will always be the high point of his campaign. Even winning the election would not surpass that moment in the debate.
posted by Fongotskilernie at 8:27 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


What do you expect from the paper whose public editor who thought this was a sensible response to criticism about false equivalency.

I'd expect that ignoring bad-faith attacks from political partisans would substantially improve the Times' coverage, along with most of the other media, and vastly to the benefit of liberals and Democrats, if I thought for a second they actually meant to do so.
posted by Gelatin at 8:27 AM on September 12, 2016


If I had pneumonia, and I was going to spend days in contact with thousands of people, most of whom wanted to see me personally, I would divulge my health status in order to make sure no-one vulnerable to the disease contracted it.

I don't think that's a very controversial moral standard.


It doesn't have to be controversial in order to be kind of ignorant about the nature of what pneumonia is and how communicable it is or is not, depending on which of its many underlying causes are in play and at what stage of treatment things are.

There's a lot of illnesses that are less communicable in their overt symptom phase and which have their communicability halted by meds.
posted by phearlez at 8:28 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Nope it's a woman asking for power so we are all entitled to condemn her moral integrity if she makes a decision we don't like
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:28 AM on September 12, 2016 [62 favorites]


OFFICIAL REQUEST: Please stop maligning dementia sufferers by comparing them to Trump. It is kind of a huge bummer. Diaper jokes are a different story imho.

I think that it isn't at all unreasonable to question the capacity of a person seeing the Presidency, particularly one who is so cagey about his medical records.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:29 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


I should say “a similar point”. Trump’s was overlapping but not identical.
posted by Fongotskilernie at 8:29 AM on September 12, 2016


All day yesterday during the 9/11 remembrances, I found myself thinking about Sarah Vowell's observation that Republicans love to exploit the memory of 9/11 even as they have little but contempt for the places that actually suffered attacks.

You have to admit, it does also tend to derail the train of thought that the incompetence of W's administration was a major factor in the attack's success.
posted by Gelatin at 8:29 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


On second thought I always felt like the nickname "Killary" was much more of a compliment than an insult. Perhaps now I shall call her Clinton, the Plague Bringer, Third Horseman of the Apocalypse, Slayer of Hairpieces.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:32 AM on September 12, 2016 [39 favorites]


Clinton 2016: Contaminating your precious bodily fluids.
posted by Hypatia at 8:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


Call me crazy, but as a dude living with HIV, my "oh my god political inaction is spreading disease" bar is a bit higher than somebody going out in public when they might spread germs.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:34 AM on September 12, 2016 [87 favorites]


If Trump gets all up in her personal space during a debate she should cough at him.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


DENY HER YOUR ESSENCE
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


I think what yall are interpreting as dementia might really just be a blustering old asshole who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about and blathers desperately when he's caught in one of his innumerable contradictions
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 8:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


This all continues to be mind-numbingly WTF, that people whose candidate sees no problem with nuclear weapons proliferation, and has actually proposed that Saudi Arabia have nuclear weapons and that countries where within living memory one colonized the other could both get nuclear weapons at the same time, are pretending to be concerned that contagion of Clinton's gross liberal ladygerms could pose a danger to Americans.

Even if for some reason you actually think you've now seen evidence that a Clinton administration would be an iniquitous hive of reckless disregard for the use of hand sanitizer, second-hand nuclear war is slightly more hazardous to a hell of alot more peoples' health. Much less the U.S. getting attacked with weapons that boomerang back to us because I'm-a-genius-when-it-comes-to-nukes Trump is acting like Wile E. Coyote.
posted by XMLicious at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


I think that it isn't at all unreasonable to question the capacity of a person seeing the Presidency

This is literally what 90% of the comments in this thread are complaining about? Desk chair doctoring is dumb no matter who the subject is but its especially dumb when its such a painful neverending horrible diagnosis.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm still bemused by the fact that Clinton felt the need to "walk back" her "deplorables" comment while Trump feels no need ever to walk back off anything he says.

It's because we all know the game we're playing, even if nobody will admit it. Democrats are supposed to be good people. Republicans are allowed, even expected, to be monsters. Trump can say whatever he wants, because his party wants a bully, their bully. Clinton can't, because her party expects an ethical, decent person, and that's something the Republicans can use against the Democrats, even when a Democrat speaks the truth, if the truth seems unkind.

I think that it isn't at all unreasonable to question the capacity of a person seeing the Presidency, particularly one who is so cagey about his medical records.


It is unreasonable to guess at someone's specific health issues without qualifications or the opportunity to examine the person. That's precisely what Republicans are doing with Clinton, and it is the technique preferred by bullies, and the sort of thing ethical, decent people don't do.
posted by maxsparber at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [27 favorites]


So, it appears Donald is functioning well enough to tweet this morning, but how was he yesterday?
Trump was also in attendance at the memorial ceremony and left the service before it ended. Asked after the event about Clinton’s health incident, the Associated Press reports Trump said, “I don’t know anything about it.”
But no one bothered to ask (or at least report on) why he also left early. Do we have any video of him after the ceremony? Maybe he's already dead, but we've been too focused on Hillary to notice!

We're the real monsters in this situation.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Perhaps now I shall call her Clinton, the Plague Bringer, Third Horseman of the Apocalypse, Slayer of Hairpieces.

Mother of Chelsea, First of Her Name, No Living Man Is She, etc.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [23 favorites]


I was hoping you'd jump in Mike. I bet you even take MASS TRANSIT sometimes.

(source: I have ridden on a train with Mike multiple times. He didn't get pneumonia.)
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


Going back to some earlier comments about Clinton doing it wrong, i.e. not selling herself enough, maybe a throwback link to Ezra Klein's piece on how she's actually a great politician, she just does it in ways that aren't typically male.

It’s time to admit Hillary Clinton is an extraordinarily talented politician

"Another way to look at the primary is that Clinton employed a less masculine strategy to win. She won the Democratic primary by spending years slowly, assiduously, building relationships with the entire Democratic Party. She relied on a more traditionally female approach to leadership: creating coalitions, finding common ground, and winning over allies."

She's only lost once in her life, to the best politician of our generation. And she tied him in the popular vote. And she's currently running 4 points ahead of where Obama was at this time in 2012.
posted by chris24 at 8:37 AM on September 12, 2016 [79 favorites]


Trump would be unique in that he would ascend to the Presidency without any record of service in the government, either as a civilian or military. He has never been trusted with the public purse or required to work within the constraints of a system of limited government.

He is the CEO of a privately held company where he is the majority shareholder. This is experience of leadership couldn't be more different than the Presidency. His experience of leadership is as a total autocrat with zero accountability. The only limits on his powers are his bankroll and his own moral compass.
posted by humanfont at 8:37 AM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]




That's a pretty mean and unfunny cartoon about Hillary and her health from The New Yorker just gone up on social media (I don't feel like linking to it).
posted by Wordshore at 8:38 AM on September 12, 2016


While on the day and subject of 9/11, anyone recall On 9/11, Trump Boasted About Having Tallest Building in Lower Manhattan
posted by Postroad at 8:38 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


She's only lost once in her life

Out of four, only two of which can honestly be said to be competitive. Let's not get too enraptured here.
posted by Etrigan at 8:42 AM on September 12, 2016


Y'know, now that you mention it, his behavior really does mimic my mother's behavior as she was starting her descent into full-blown dementia. Scary.

There's a Trump family history of it, too. It killed his father Fred.

Considering his inconsistent statements, and episodes of word-salad, I'm not just making a joke. It's a real concern.


This came up in the last thread, too, and Quaqkapi did a nice job pointing out some facts. The fact that Trump's father had dementia is no indication that Trump is going to suffer from it - familial cases only make up 3-5% of all cases, and if you have the familial form, it is far more likely that you will be a young onset (under age 65) case than not.

Like the armchair diagnoses of Clinton, this is just a lot of baseless speculation that really doesn't serve a lot of purpose. Trump's inconsistency and word-salad can be reflective of a lot of things, and not all of them are medical in nature.
posted by nubs at 8:42 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


OFFICIAL REQUEST: Please stop maligning dementia sufferers by comparing them to Trump. It is kind of a huge bummer. Diaper jokes are a different story imho.


So can I mock dementia sufferers insofar as they are incontinent? Is that not a bummer at all, or a minor bummer, or a huge bummer?
posted by thelonius at 8:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump thinks of everything in terms of real estate. Seriously, go back and read some of his anecdotes about the UN building, or Caterpillar tractors, or the wall. It would be more amusing if he weren’t interviewing for Leader of the Free World.
posted by Fongotskilernie at 8:43 AM on September 12, 2016


WTF New Yorker?
posted by chris24 at 8:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


On 9/11, Trump Boasted About Having Tallest Building in Lower Manhattan

except 40 Wall Street isn't taller than the Empire State Building* so he made a self-serving tone-deaf comment that was also a lie. It's really pretty epic.

*And, I think, a couple other NY skyscrapers, I can't be bothered to look it up
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


Me, today:

Gets in car, turns it on, radio comes on set to NPR.

Cokie Roberts: "....this incredibly damaging video blahblahblah It has them [Democrats] very nervously beginning to whisper about having her stepping aside and finding another candidate."

Flips radio off, finds some Tribulation to listen to.

/scene
posted by Existential Dread at 8:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


tiva - Lower Manhattan, i.e. Financial District.
posted by chris24 at 8:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Is that not a bummer at all, or a minor bummer, or a huge bummer?

a dirty bum-mer, I think?
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Out of four, only two of which can honestly be said to be competitive. Let's not get too enraptured here.

Yes. Wouldn't want to get too enraptured with someone who merely has been Secretary of State, a US Senator, very nearly won the last Democratic nomination for president, won this one, and will likely be our next president. Certainly many have accomplished as much, if not more!
posted by maxsparber at 8:45 AM on September 12, 2016 [37 favorites]


Me, most days:

Gets in car, turns it on, radio comes on set to NPR.

Cokie Roberts

Flips radio off

/scene
posted by Gelatin at 8:47 AM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


tiva - Lower Manhattan

well, that seems dumb to me but I never understood why NYC had two downtowns* anyway

*I KNOW, DOWNTOWN MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS THERE
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:48 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Downtown is the same thing as lower Manhattan.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Welp that's it folks I'm off the charts.

It left out the Vantablack level: I Literally Cannot Even


Danger level: Squant.
posted by mazola at 8:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I think that it isn't at all unreasonable to question the capacity of a person seeing the Presidency, particularly one who is so cagey about his medical records.

It is unreasonable to guess at someone's specific health issues without qualifications or the opportunity to examine the person. That's precisely what Republicans are doing with Clinton, and it is the technique preferred by bullies, and the sort of thing ethical, decent people don't do.


So, let's say a candidate is constantly gasping for air, seems incapable of walking without assistance, or is unable to complete sentences without external prompting. You're saying it's unreasonable to speculate that such issues may be medical in nature unless I'm their personal physician? That just doesn't make any sense.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think it's tacky to assume Trump isn't just an asshole
posted by beerperson at 8:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


Also, on the matter of health for a president... we understand she wouldn't have to do any gladiator-style arena fighting, right? There are no matters of state that would be settled by combat. There are no important summits she'd have to hike to atop Kilimanjaro. She doesn't have to run a Tough Mudder upon inauguration or anything.

FDR was a pretty fine president for more than a decade while suffering from debilitating polio.

Even if the weirdest conspiracy theories about Clinton's health turned out to be true, there's little evidence it would affect her ability to be president.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [23 favorites]


My preemptive footnote was apparently not loud enough.

This is still a less stupid argument than the Hillary health thing though so fine whatever
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:51 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


So, let's say a candidate is constantly gasping for air, seems incapable of walking without assistance, or is unable to complete sentences without external prompting. You're saying it's unreasonable to speculate that such issues may be medical in nature unless I'm their personal physician?

When that happens, we can discuss it.
posted by maxsparber at 8:51 AM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


So, it appears Donald is functioning well enough to tweet this morning, but how was he yesterday?

I flipped past The View on the teevee earlier to see Joy Behar say (in response to one of the other hosts whose name I don't know saying she just has a feeling that there's something wrong with Clinton's health beyond pneumonia) "Well gee, if we're talking about what we don't know, maybe the other candidate [she evidently refuses to say Trump's name?] arranged his trip to Mexico as a cover for desperately getting illegal stem cell treatments for his secret medical condition."
posted by XMLicious at 8:52 AM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


so much of the commentary on HRC's "toxic privacy" whatever is just people trying really hard not to say outright, "Look, Americans are just really, really stupid, and really, really paranoid, and how does Hillary not know that they will come up with half-cocked theories unless you spell everything out for them? Why does she insist upon treating them like reasonable adults?!?"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:53 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


(I gave up on Cokie Robers during the time when she was NPR's ostensibly liberal counterpoint to Kevin Phillips, but after Phillips published a books or two critical of George W. Bush, they simply dropped him and kept Roberts, apparently without seeing a need for a balancing conservative voice.)
posted by Gelatin at 8:53 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


So, let's say a candidate is constantly gasping for air, seems incapable of walking without assistance, or is unable to complete sentences without external prompting. You're saying it's unreasonable to speculate that such issues may be medical in nature unless I'm their personal physician?

Have you considered that your candidate may, in fact, be a fish?
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [116 favorites]


I flipped past The View on the teevee earlier to see Joy Behar say (in response to one of the other hosts whose name I don't know

I'm going to guess it was Trump supporter Candace Cameron-Bure.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Even if the weirdest conspiracy theories about Clinton's health turned out to be true, there's little evidence it would affect her ability to be president.

If she has an army of genetic duplicates out there, ready to step up at the drop of a hat, it might actually be helpful. I've even heard rumors that each one is suited to different environments (Cold Clinton, Desert Clinton, Swamp Clinton, Radioactive Wasteland Clinton, etc), and that if you defeat them, you can actually use their environment-specific powers in later levels. So that could be useful, on the world stage.
posted by Greg Nog at 8:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [122 favorites]


So, let's say a candidate is constantly gasping for air, seems incapable of walking without assistance, or is unable to complete sentences without external prompting. You're saying it's unreasonable to speculate that such issues may be medical in nature unless I'm their personal physician?

When that happens, we can discuss it.


So, there is some threshold that you've decided is sufficient to merit discussion, then?
posted by leotrotsky at 8:55 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Who knew that what the world feared most was not nuclear war, but rather the movie Dave coming true.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


There are no important summits she'd have to hike to atop Kilimanjaro.

Ah, I think the conservatives' concern about Hillary's health is based in a simple misunderstanding of what an 'economic summit' entails. Someone please explain this to them.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


(I gave up on Cokie Robers during the time when she was NPR's ostensibly liberal counterpoint to Kevin Phillips, but after Phillips published a books or two critical of George W. Bush, they simply dropped him and kept Roberts, apparently without seeing a need for a balancing conservative voice.)

Well, today they "balanced" Cokie Roberts with conservative Mollie Hemingway from The Federalist.

To paraphrase the Simpsons, NPR became a hardcore Fox clone so gradually I didn't even notice!
posted by Existential Dread at 8:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


I think it's tacky to assume Trump isn't just an asshole

He's always been an asshole. But I encourage you to, seriously, watch the interviews he gave back when he was the Reform Party candidate, and look at him now.

He sounds like a completely different person.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


So, there is some threshold that you've decided is sufficient to merit discussion, then?

Yes. Actual stuff, and not bullshit examples somebody made up. And not idle speculation by a bunch of armchair Houses who think a chronic liar who has been so privileged his entire life that he no longer must complete sentences must, of course, be suffering a debilitating illness that absolutely must be senile dementia.
posted by maxsparber at 8:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Ta-Nehisi Coates: How Breitbart Conquered the Media
For much of this campaign journalists have attacked Hillary Clinton for being evasive and avoiding hard questioning from their ranks. And then the second Clinton is forthright and says something revealing, she is attacked—not for the substance of what she’s said—but simply for having said it. This hypocrisy carries a chilling implicit message: Lie to me. Lie to the country. Lie to everyone. This weekend was not just another misanalysis, it was a shocking betrayal of the journalistic mission which should urge the revelation of truth as opposed to the propagation of hot takes, Washington jargon, and politics-speak.

The shame reflects an ugly and lethal trend in this country’s history—an ever-present impulse to ignore and minimize racism, an aversion to calling it by its name. For nearly a century and a half, this country deluded itself into thinking that its greatest calamity, the Civil War, had nothing to do with one of its greatest sins, enslavement. It deluded itself in this manner despite available evidence to the contrary. Lynchings, pogroms, and plunder proceeded from this fiction. Writers, journalists, and educators embroidered a national lie, and thus a safe space for the violent tempers of those who needed to be white was preserved.

The safe space for the act of being white endures today. This weekend, the media, an ostensibly great American institution, saw it challenged and—not for the first time—organized to preserve it. For speaking a truth, backed up by data, Clinton was accused of promoting bigotry. No. The true crime was endangering white consciousness. So it was when the president asserted that it was stupid to arrest a man for breaking into his own home. So it was when the president said that if he had a son, he would look like Trayvon Martin. And so it is when reformers suggest police not stop citizens on so flimsy a pretext as furtive movements. The need to be white is a sensitive matter—one which our institutions are inexorably and mindlessly bound to protect.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:58 AM on September 12, 2016 [95 favorites]


WTF New Yorker?

Quite. If they're going to lower themselves to a similar level to Trump mocking a disabled reporter, then I hope they go bankrupt. (And I often love their cartoons)
posted by Wordshore at 8:59 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


she wouldn't have to do any gladiator-style arena fighting, right? There are no matters of state that would be settled by combat. There are no important summits she'd have to hike to atop Kilimanjaro. She doesn't have to run a Tough Mudder upon inauguration or anything.
On second thought, maybe this will become a thing someday. And that's how we end up with President Camacho.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:00 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Quite. If they're going to lower themselves to a similar level to Trump mocking a disabled reporter, then I hope they go bankrupt. (And I often love their cartoons)

i mean that dude used to write a comic called Wacky Fun Whitey so like, what does one honestly expect.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:01 AM on September 12, 2016


KY Gov. Matt Bevin predicts ‘shedding of the blood of tyrants and patriots’ if Clinton is elected:
Bevin believes that America’s freedom has been “purchased at an extraordinary price,” citing the lives of a half million Americans who have died in uniform. “America is worth fighting for. America is worth fighting for, ideologically.”

He encouraged the audience to fight in every possibly way so that they aren’t forced “to do it physically.” However, he argues that it may come to the shedding of blood.

“I will tell you this: I do think it would be possible, but at what price?” he said, after being asked if he thought America would survive Clinton. “At what price? The roots of the tree of liberty are watered by what? The blood, of who? The tyrants to be sure, but who else? The patriots.”

He continued wondering whose blood will be shed in this possible physical confrontation. “It may be that of those in this room. It might be that of our children and grandchildren. I have nine children. It breaks my heart to think that it might be their blood that is needed to redeem something, to reclaim something, that we through our apathy and our indifference have given away.”
posted by palindromic at 9:03 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


I felt like taking a minute or two for immigration, so I went over to DJ Trump.com and read up on the plan for making Mexico fund that silly wall. Incredible! Quote:
    It's an easy decision for Mexico: make a one-time payment of $5-10 billion to ensure that $24 billion continues to flow into their country year after year. There are several ways to compel Mexico to pay for the wall including the following:
    • On day 1 promulgate a "proposed rule" (regulation) amending 31 CFR 130.121 to redefine applicable financial institutions to include money transfer companies like Western Union, and redefine "account" to include wire transfers. Also include in the proposed rule a requirement that no alien may wire money outside of the United States unless the alien first provides a document establishing his lawful presence in the United States.
    • On day 2 Mexico will immediately protest. They receive approximately $24 billion a year in remittances from Mexican nationals working in the United States. The majority of that amount comes from illegal aliens. It serves as de facto welfare for poor families in Mexico. There is no significant social safety net provided by the state in Mexico.
    • On day 3 tell Mexico that if the Mexican government will contribute the funds needed to the United States to pay for the wall, the Trump Administration will not promulgate the final rule, and the regulation will not go into effect.
So to sum up, assuming it is legally and practically feasible (big assumption here...there are lots of ways to send money home!) the plan is to threaten the Mexican government. Threaten them how? With the prospect of lots of poor people (elderly, mothers with young children) going hungry as their illegal provider can't wire money home. Even if that were somehow not one of the cruelest, most heartless things I've ever heard of...rage moment...urrgh....

I was going to say that Trump is implying something pretty incredible: if the Mexican government caves in to this threat then illegal aliens will be allowed to stay here and send home money indefinitely, right? Or is he planning to get the ransom money and then deport the illegals? What am I missing here?
posted by TreeRooster at 9:03 AM on September 12, 2016 [39 favorites]


> second-hand nuclear war is slightly more hazardous to a hell of alot more peoples' health

I suspect that a non-insignificant percentage of the population would rather roll the dice on a chance of dying in a nuclear war than have a woman as President.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:03 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Here's the New Yorker cartoon, text is "“People wanted her to act more like Bernie, but I don’t think they meant the one from ‘Weekend at Bernie’s.’ ”
posted by Perplexity at 9:03 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


KY Gov. Matt Bevin predicts ‘shedding of the blood of tyrants and patriots’ if Clinton is elected:

So now leading Republicans are actively encouraging civil war if Clinton wins. Fuck you Republicans, you bunch of racist fascist traitors.
posted by chris24 at 9:08 AM on September 12, 2016 [66 favorites]


The article that christ24 links to really crystallized for me just how intense the double standard in American politics is.

In order to be a major-party candidate for President, a lady needs to have flawless academic credentials, decades of experience in government and nonprofit work, been a significant component of presidential campaign, been a major player in one of the most significant legislative efforts ever in reshaping a major American industry, participated in national politics at highest level for decades, been elected to statewide office twice, served as senator with time on major committees, run for national office once, acted with unbelievable class and grace to the person who did get the job, and then act as his Secretary of State.

And people will still criticize you over, and you will agree with, how you aren't as charismatic as others.

If you're (white) dude, you just???? go into the family business????? and spend decades repeatedly flaming out????? then become a major party candidate for president in a year!!!!!!
posted by joyceanmachine at 9:08 AM on September 12, 2016 [68 favorites]


oh thanks New Yorker FUCK YOU
posted by angrycat at 9:08 AM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


Here's the New Yorker cartoon, text is "“People wanted her to act more like Bernie, but I don’t think they meant the one from ‘Weekend at Bernie’s.’ ”

Huh. I've been following a thread on Something Awful that chronicles the worst of the right-wing political cartoonists: Garrison, Ramirez and all their ilk. Trust me when I say this is downright charming in comparison.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:09 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Here's the New Yorker cartoon, text is "“People wanted her to act more like Bernie, but I don’t think they meant the one from ‘Weekend at Bernie’s.’ ”

The breitbart contingent has been making this exact joke for a long long time now, so not only is this a tasteless cartoon, it's also lazy and derivative.
posted by dis_integration at 9:10 AM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


“I will tell you this: I do think it would be possible, but at what price?” he said, after being asked if he thought America would survive Clinton. “At what price? The roots of the tree of liberty are watered by what? The blood, of who? The tyrants to be sure, but who else? The patriots.”

If this had been said before this year, it would be a national story. Now it's going to be a footnote at best.

Ratchet ratchet ratchet.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:12 AM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


Here's the New Yorker cartoon, text is

"Christ, what an asshole."
posted by holgate at 9:13 AM on September 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


The New Yorker cartoon is funny...a cartoon is NOT the same as the demeaning stuff handed out by Trump...the magazine is clearly in support of Hillary.
posted by Postroad at 9:13 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Also, on the matter of health for a president... we understand she wouldn't have to do any gladiator-style arena fighting, right?

Whoa whoa whoa. Are you saying that sending freshly-elected heads of state into the wilderness for a month to face The Trials is something only Australians do? Huh.
posted by um at 9:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Huh. I've been following a thread on Something Awful that chronicles the worst of the right-wing political cartoonists: Garrison, Ramirez and all their ilk. Trust me when I say this is downright charming in comparison.

I followed that thread for years before I realized how constantly furious I was because of it. The sheer levels of smug ignorance and open hate in right-wing cartoons were just too much for me.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Pope Guilty, you're a smarter man than I. I can't look away.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:16 AM on September 12, 2016


But Lauer's interviewing skills are second to none. He has hosted thousands of episodes of the "Today" show.


These two things are not the same thing.
posted by sexyrobot at 9:16 AM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


By the time I get to the bottom of these new posts on a Monday morning there are about 25 new comments if I click on the 'new comments, show' link at the bottom. Then when I get done with those there are about 7 new ones, etc. I feel like I am living the internet equivalent of Xeno's paradox.
posted by Killick at 9:16 AM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


I am like light years away from the competence of Hillary Clinton and I have chronic nerve pain that regularly and last night had me screaming into a pillow and all weekend long I was grading papers when I wasn't screaming I am here at my school about to teach a class (after no sleep because screaming) and because of my body I will probably have moments of excruciating pain in class and no student will ever know it because I do my fucking job and I do it well and you know I was like, boy, this election, fuck, and then I saw the New Yorker cartoon and you know, really, HRC? If you want to develop a wheelchair assassin squad a la Infinite Jest I am your lady and I will bring righteous wrath upon your enemies and

I AM SO ANGRY AT THIS STUPID COUNTRY
posted by angrycat at 9:17 AM on September 12, 2016 [87 favorites]


Guys, I am growing as a person though. Because when a former co-worker messaged me on FB to ask why I was supporting Clinton when Trump was "a lifelong Democrat" and "Clinton is as racist as they come" I just replied "Oh, let's not" and went back to watching tv.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:18 AM on September 12, 2016 [70 favorites]


> “They try to silence us,” Bevin said. “They try to get us to shut our mouths. They try to embarrass us. Don’t be embarrassed. We were not redeemed to have a spirit of timidity.” He tried to inspire young people, “Be bold. There’s enough Neville Chamberlains in the world. Be a Winston Churchill…There are quite enough sheep already. Be a shepherd.”

These fucking people. The Governor of Kentucky is literally threatening civil war because he doesn't like being called a racist, and because people he doesn't like are being granted long-overdue basic human rights. TYRANNY!!!
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:21 AM on September 12, 2016 [29 favorites]


Chillary Clinton Beer Coozie Update:

My coozies did not arrive in time for the Labor Day cookout, so unfortunately the party merely enjoyed delicious grilled and smoked foods without incurring subtle brainwashing. The coozies did, however, arrive in time for the first football Sunday of the season. Given that my living room transforms into FOOTBALL ROOM every Sunday during the NFL season, and is filled with dudes who are reluctantly voting for Hillary (if at all), I will use them and the convivial football atmosphere to foster more positive unconscious associations toward Hillary.


my fantasy team this season is The Vagenda of Manocide, they are currently 1-0
posted by palindromic at 9:21 AM on September 12, 2016 [54 favorites]


palindromic: Stroh's? For real? Get behind me, Satan.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:23 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Atlantic's appropriate headline: Hillary Clinton Attended a 9/11 Memorial Service Despite Illness
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:30 AM on September 12, 2016 [74 favorites]


They could wheel her on stage in an iron lung and I'd vote for her against Trump.

Conversely, she could slay a deer with her teeth and then climb a mountain and Trump lovers would say she was weak.
posted by emjaybee at 9:31 AM on September 12, 2016 [27 favorites]


I had to rage a little this morning because the NPR politics podcast continues to confound all reality. They do this thing where they acknowledge the steepness of the Trump/Clinton grading curve, then play right into it anyway.

Paraphrased: "Clinton had a bad week with more of her emails being released and lingering questions about the Clinton Foundation"

Right, 30 emails got released, including some where Colin Powell told her that she should run a private server, and we continue to see that the Clinton Foundation is an effective well-run charity whose donors received no special treatment with the Secretary of State. And that's... bad? This is what constitutes a bad week for her?
posted by 0xFCAF at 9:31 AM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


KY Gov. Matt Bevin predicts ‘shedding of the blood of tyrants and patriots’ if Clinton is elected:

Him first.
posted by zarq at 9:32 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


TreeRooster: "So to sum up, assuming it is legally and practically feasible (big assumption here...there are lots of ways to send money home!) the plan is to threaten the Mexican government."

There's another layer to this hilarious incompetence. He's not just threatening Mexico -- he's also threatening Western Union (and also other money-wiring companies), an American S&P 500 company with thousands of employees, locations in most states (and lots of congressional districts), and billions in revenue, some of which is no doubt allocated to political lobbying.

I find this kind of strategic myopia (i.e.: focusing only on your direct opponents and ignoring other interested parties) oddly mysterious. In a similar vein, GW Bush's administration had some kind of plan for N. Korea that basically needed to assume that China would just sit back and do nothing while N. Korea collapsed. Like, why would they accept that?
posted by mhum at 9:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


30 emails got released

And only one was new, and it was a diplomat complimenting her on her Senate testimony.
posted by chris24 at 9:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


There's almost no reporting about that Kentucky governor's speech yet. Everyone please go share the fuck outta that and tag reporters. It is in-s-a-n-e. He is an actual governor.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Paraphrased: "Clinton had a bad week with more of her emails being released and lingering questions about the Clinton Foundation"

I am getting REALLY fucking sick of seeing only the accusations about Clinton reported and only rarely reporting of the public debunking of said accusations.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [29 favorites]


Back to the phone banks. It pleases me any time I try to join a state's bank and there's no one left to call.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


Conversely, she could slay a deer with her teeth and then climb a mountain and Trump lovers would say she was weak.

Yeah well Real Men Presidents kill the deer with a mere stare, then stride to it and manfully Presidentially consume it, bones and all, by unlocking their manly Presidential jaw and swallowing it entire.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:38 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah well Real Men Presidents kill the deer with a mere stare, then stride to it and manfully Presidentially consume it, bones and all, by unlocking their manly Presidential jaw and swallowing it entire.

So the Democrats should've nominated Saxton Hale?
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah well Real Men Presidents kill the deer with a mere stare, then stride to it and manfully Presidentially consume it, bones and all, by unlocking their manly Presidential jaw and swallowing it entire.

Well that sounds uncomfortably like The Beast from The Magicians.

Which works pretty well as as a Trump comparison, except Martin is more sympathetic.
posted by wildblueyonder at 9:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


On day 2 Mexico will immediately protest. They receive approximately $24 billion a year in remittances from Mexican nationals working in the United States. The majority of that amount comes from illegal aliens. It serves as de facto welfare for poor families in Mexico.

Holy fucking shit, Google confirms that this is an actual quote from the Trump campaign web site.

Those immigrants, including child laborers, who are working under near-slavery health-destroying conditions to scrape together packets of money at sub-minimum-wage rates, to the vast profit of their "job creator" masters, and sending those packets of money to other impoverished people, now count as a form of welfare in the conservative legendarium. As well as the money earned by less precarious immigrants.

And these are the jobs they want Americans filling, with any improvements in working conditions left to the vagaries of benefits from Trump's super-amazing-the-best-ever negotiating skills trickling down. These people, who love throwing the term "Tea Party" around and speaking in soaring worshipful terms of Independence and the founding of the American state, and pretend a hatred of tyranny, in actuality would not at all mind being ruled by a King George, if he was wearing a business suit and told them all the time how free they are. They all want to be Baldrick from the first season of Blackadder, living their lives in the hope of some day getting a turnip of their own.
posted by XMLicious at 9:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [39 favorites]


Conversely, she could slay a deer with her teeth and then climb a mountain and Trump lovers would say she was weak.

"Mouthgate: Clinton fails to slay deer with her own hands"

"Crowngate: Hillary relies on secretly implanted artificial dental aids to take on deer"

"Sherpagate: Was there really anything in Hillary's pack at all?"

"Mountaingate: Hillary secretly had the mountain lowered by a massive team of aides before climbing, six political enemies buried alive under the resulting pile of dirt and rock"

"Deergate: It was an animatronic deer created by the liberal puppets at Disney Imagineering"

I must admit––I can see why these people find making up utter nonsense to be fun.
posted by zachlipton at 9:45 AM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


Have you considered that your candidate may, in fact, be a fish?

oh wow! i never really gave it any thought before, but what if trump is an actual ferret with a really large anal cyst?!?!?!
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:46 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


> If you're (white) dude, you just???? go into the family business????? and spend decades repeatedly flaming out????? then become a major party candidate for president in a year!!!!!!

Hillary Clinton has surely been battling increasingly virulent sexism her entire life, but she's always managed to overcome it and level up. Now she has reached the last level, and is up against misogyny's Final Boss.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:46 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


Mycoplasma pneumonia is contagious, but it has a slow start, and people are unaware they are ill, it is a dry, not particularly productive cough. A person can have mycoplasma pneumonia for a month before they finally accept they have something, that is making them feel unwell. That is why it is called walking pneumonia. Staff members who were ill, may have given it to her, but it is common in late summer and fall. So, it is not a crime to get ill, even keel right over from it. Hillary Clinton is not a biological warfare criminal, nor is she faking being well enough to run for president. On the other hand he chief opponent is faking being mentally, or morally, healthy enough to run for president.

Examples: Why can't I just use nuclear weapons? Let's just take the oil in the Middle East.
posted by Oyéah at 9:47 AM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


But Clinton has human lungs! Trump's entire respiratory system was replaced with pure WINNING years ago, just ask his doctor.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


"trump is an actual ferret" There are telepaths in Metafilter.
posted by Oyéah at 9:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


KY Gov. Matt Bevin predicts ‘shedding of the blood of tyrants and patriots’ if Clinton is elected

This is horrific on its face, but the trickle-down from it is just as ghastly to watch. This weekend, I found myself standing behind two outdoors-y looking gentlemen, each wearing a black tee-shirt. One listed half a dozen calibers of ammunition, with a large message announcing that each is faster than calling 911. The other depicted a large tree, dripping something viscous and sanguine, with that damned "blood of tyrants" quote overlaid in shiny silver letters.

Did I mention that this was in Boston? At the aquarium? And that each was accompanying a child under the age of six?

People are emboldened by this kind of lunacy, when it get shouted from the highest levels and no one pushes back with to say "actually that is insane and you are a dangerous person who should be locked away from polite society." No one wears that tee-shirt around here a year ago, much less to a building full of kids.
posted by Mayor West at 9:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [66 favorites]


Phone banking: I try to do 20 calls every day on my lunch hour. Today, I called PA, RI, and MT (I switch states whenever I feel like it, I like to feel like I'm touching the whole nation). Today, only one person picked up, and they're supporting Hillary! Woot woot!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [23 favorites]


Gelatin: "Me, most days:

Gets in car, turns it on, radio comes on set to NPR.

Cokie Roberts

Flips radio off

/scene
"

I'd add in yelling incoherently at the radio before I change the channel and my wife asking why I listen if it makes me crazy.
posted by octothorpe at 9:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump had an actual computer game series back in the day. It was about his casino. Trump Castle, I think.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:51 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm cringing because all of the 2008 talk about John McCain not being healthy enough to be president (equally armchair and ageist stuff) is coming back to bite the [D]s here.
posted by kimberussell at 9:52 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


the 2008 talk about John McCain not being healthy enough to be president (equally armchair and ageist stuff) is coming back to bite the [D]s here.

Palin. End of story.
posted by chris24 at 9:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [23 favorites]


Trump had an actual computer game series back in the day. It was about his casino. Trump Castle, I think.

Yeah, I think I remember playing that one... you had to fight your way through eight levels of SS guards and attack dogs, before you faced the final boss equipped with dual miniguns.

Actually putting swastikas on the guy seemed a little over-the-top, TBH, but I guess they were worried the symbolism might be lost.
posted by Mayor West at 9:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


But Clinton has human lungs! Trump's entire respiratory system was replaced with pure WINNING years ago, just ask his doctor.

It's true. I contacted his physician and he sent me a WordPerfect file explaining that Trump is "basically a superhuman" at this point. It had an MS Paint illustration with it showing him vanquishing his enemies with the "Pew! PEW!" noises helpfully drawn in.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Donald Trump's speaking live now in Baltimore. He hasn't said anything abnormally stupid yet.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:57 AM on September 12, 2016


Trump Castle 2 [real], Electric Boogaloo [fake].
posted by dis_integration at 9:57 AM on September 12, 2016


Trump had an actual computer game series back in the day. It was about his casino. Trump Castle, I think.

Beyond Trump Castle.

Nininininyah! Nininininyah! yowp
posted by Existential Dread at 9:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


He's going on about the baskets of deplorable thing now. Please Donald, not the briar patch!
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:58 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


I've had both bronchitis and walking pneumonia. It's hard enough to breath with your chest full of fluid without going out into the humidity.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:58 AM on September 12, 2016




It's the 'tsunami of lies' again. I couldn't keep up if I tried.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump had an actual computer game series back in the day. It was about his casino. Trump Castle, I think.

Yes; three, actually -- "Trump Castle II is the 1991 sequel to the 1988 casino game Trump Castle, based on Trump Castle, one of The Donald’s real-life Atlantic City gambling establishments," also Trump Castle 3 (DOS only) in 1993.

He's had a few after that: Donald Trump's Real Estate Tycoon (2002), The Apprentice (2006) -- which also had a sequel in 2007 -- as well as a board game (Trump: The Game) in 1989 (re-released in 2004). Notably, all the profits from that 1989 board game were supposed to go to charity, but it's unclear that they actually did.
posted by cjelli at 10:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


ChurchHatesTucker, how do you achieve the optimum level of 'high' to watch these things?

like I can't even figure out if I'm too high or not high enough
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Well that sounds uncomfortably like The Beast from The Magicians.

Which works pretty well as as a Trump comparison, except Martin is more sympathetic.


Nah, no room for extra fingers on those tiny little hands.
posted by Daily Alice at 10:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


> Trump Castle 2 [real]
Well that looks an awful lot like Leisure Suit Larry to me.
posted by farlukar at 10:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


538: One In Six Eligible Voters Has A Disability (And it’s harder for them to vote because of it):
The number of eligible voters with disabilities is growing faster than the number of eligible voters without disabilities. A set of projections from two Rutgers professors show that approximately one-sixth of November’s electorate will be comprised of people with disabilities. They total 34.6 million people in all, a 10.8 percent increase since 2008. The number of eligible voters without disabilities, meanwhile, has grown by only 8.5 percent.

For years, their growing numbers have led disability rights activists to claim that voters with disabilities are a “sleeping giant” that could, one day, decide national elections. But politicians can’t count on voters with disabilities as a voting bloc in the way that they can with so many other demographics. People with disabilities tend to support Republicans and Democrats in fairly equal numbers, which complicates efforts to tailor political messages to them (and compounds their appeal as a potential swing demographic). And people with disabilities are substantially less likely to vote, in part because they face significant challenges at polling places. So what does all that mean for politicians trying to reach them?

Until now, neither party has chosen to make political hay out of disability rights; the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 and a set of amendments to the law in 2008 were both passed with overwhelming bipartisan support and signed by Republican presidents. Lisa Schur, a political scientist at Rutgers and one of the co-authors of the projections, said that several powerful demographic factors help explain why people with disabilities are not a political force.
posted by palindromic at 10:03 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Unless Trump goes off script and says something newly offensive/wrong instead of the same old wrong lies I think we're good without the liveblogging, especially Day Trump.

Oh me? I live here now. Hope that's cool. I'll take the floor, no bother, just toss me a pillow or 30.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:05 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


He's going on about the baskets of deplorable thing now. Please Donald, not the briar patch!

I suspect many of Trump's supporters have VHS bootlegs of that movie, since Disney won't release it anymore.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:06 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Palin. End of story.

It was a concern in May 2008 before he picked her in August 2008. But thanks for shutting me down in literally 2 minutes.
posted by kimberussell at 10:07 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


thanks for shutting me down in literally 2 minutes.

Sorry, I meant 'end of story' to mean the end of my counterpoint, not the end of any debate with you.
posted by chris24 at 10:10 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


"we will abandon the policy of reckless regime change favored by my opponent" [real]

all my evens have run away, shouting that they are not capable
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:11 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


How can "ageist" stuff be "biting the Ds" when Trump is older than Clinton? And women live longer than men, generally, so it makes even less sense?

Also yeah, Palin. Had McCain won and then been incapacitated, we'd have had Palin in the Oval Office.

If something happens to Clinton, we have Paine, who appears to be a nice guy who could do a decent job and would definitely not push the button just to show the world who's boss.
posted by emjaybee at 10:11 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


It was a concern in May 2008

And in both of the examples you provide, it is the press making an issue of it, not Democrats.
posted by chris24 at 10:11 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm cringing because all of the 2008 talk about John McCain not being healthy enough to be president (equally armchair and ageist stuff) is coming back to bite the [D]s here.

Kind of a false equivalence. I recall that of the Dems concerned about McCain's health, much of their concern was that Palin would then become president. A lot of people (myself included) were utterly terrified at the thought of her becoming president for similar reasons we're terrified Trump will win. I think a lot of people were saying essentially "McCain is pretty old and you need to be ready for a Palin presidency. If that thought scares the crap out of you consider voting for Obama." I also don't think the Dems pushing that were creating body double conspiracy theories about it. And on top of that, McCain had 25 years on Obama while Clinton and Trump are pretty close in age so if there is a concern about age it applies pretty equally.

Anyway, if the thought of Kaine being president scares you more than Trump/Pence being president, then by all means let Hillary's health factor into your decision.
posted by Green With You at 10:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


He said 'thank you' to the people like six times, I'm concerned he may have a fatal case of Tourette's Syndrome.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:15 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


If something happens to Clinton, we have Paine, who appears to be a nice guy who could do a decent job and would definitely not push the button just to show the world who's boss.

If Tim Kaine was asked about pushing the big red button he'd be all "well I've always wanted to push all the buttons in an elevator but it'd be wrong on so many levels".
posted by Talez at 10:16 AM on September 12, 2016 [70 favorites]


Wow, those Trump video games are some hot garbage.

The casino games are just basic-ass games with 'Trump' jizzed on them, Donald Trump's Real Estate Tycoon is SimShitty 2000 (just to be fair, though, it's one of the top ten city-building games released for the N-Gage), and not only does The Apprentice: Los Angeles look disturbingly like the Kim Kardashian game, they're both just branded versions of Diner Dash.
posted by box at 10:17 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mother Jones: Nearly 6 Million People Will Be Barred From Voting in November:
"It's been a roller coaster," Garrett says. "One minute having it, then the next minute losing it. I'm confident [that I'll be able to vote], but I'm afraid that they'll find something else so felons can't have their rights."

Their roller coaster is not restricted to the state of Virginia. According to the Sentencing Project, a criminal-justice research and advocacy organization, more than 5.8 million people across the country with felony convictions on their records will not be able to vote in November. In 46 states, those with felony convictions are able to get their civil rights restored, including the right to vote, after completing prison or jail time, probation, or the payment of fines, but that takes time. Maine and Vermont allow voting from jail, even for those convicted of felonies. In Virginia, Iowa, Kentucky, and Florida, voting rights for those with felony convictions can only be restored by the governor. The efforts to provide voting rights for felons is one of several voting rights battles preceding this election, including ones over voter ID and cuts to early voting.

Former US Attorney General Eric Holder says he thinks the rights should be restored as soon as someone is released from prison.
posted by palindromic at 10:17 AM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]




Maybe we can make a deal with the GOP to swap Palin for Trump and we'll spot them....let's say... Ohio? She's bad but not this bad, lord almighty.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:17 AM on September 12, 2016


If something happens to Clinton, we have Paine, who appears to be a nice guy

Indeed, these are soul-trying times.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:17 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think a lot of people were saying essentially "McCain is pretty old and you need to be ready for a Palin presidency. If that thought scares the crap out of you consider voting for Obama."

Yes, that's ageism.
posted by Etrigan at 10:17 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


The casino games are just basic-ass games with 'Trump' jizzed on them

Eeww.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:17 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yes, that's ageism.

From my vantage point it's prudential. One coronary and we get "I saw some Russian guy from my house giving me the finger dontchaknow and now I'm gonna nuke him to show him who's boss!"
posted by Talez at 10:19 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump had an actual computer game series back in the day. It was about his casino. Trump Castle, I think.

Castle Trumpenstein?
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:22 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yes, that's ageism.

From my vantage point it's prudential. One coronary and we get "I saw some Russian guy from my house giving me the finger dontchaknow and now I'm gonna nuke him to show him who's boss!"


One can have the same concern about an unprepared VP becoming President without tying it into "Well, McCain's hella old, so he's definitely gonna die." Especially when comparing him to two candidates who are only 1-2 years younger than he was at the time.
posted by Etrigan at 10:22 AM on September 12, 2016


Maybe we can make a deal with the GOP to swap Palin for Trump and we'll spot them....let's say... Ohio?

Hey, wait, I LIVE IN OHIO!
posted by cooker girl at 10:23 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


The odds have shifted somewhat on the betting markets. Not surprisingly, money is going onto Trump.

I'm guessing that a 20 or a 54 means that for every unit bet you'd get 20 or 54 units back if successful. What does a 1/2 or 11/20 or 4/7 mean on those charts? That you only get half your original bet back? Or half + your original bet?
posted by Mitheral at 10:23 AM on September 12, 2016


Are we sure that "basket of deplorables" isn't meant to refer to the media itself?
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]




Meanwhile, there was a fire at the Fort Pierce Islamic Center, where the Pulse shooter prayed, and the authorities have ruled it to be arson. This has been your early Monday morning instance of hate, 2016.
posted by zachlipton at 10:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yes, that's ageism.

Is it actually ageism to say "All else being equal, a 70-year-old man is more likely to die in the next four to eight years than a 50-year-old man"?
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


Especially when comparing him to two candidates who are only 1-2 years younger than he was at the time.

But at the time people were comparing him to 47 year old Obama. His age isn't an issue for president now.
posted by chris24 at 10:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


If Tim Kaine was asked about pushing the big red button he'd be all "well I've always wanted to push all the buttons in an elevator but it'd be wrong on so many levels".

One shining light in this whole campaign has been the plethora of "Well Tim Kaine would say..." dad jokes that have surfaced since he became the VP nominee
posted by TwoWordReview at 10:28 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm guessing that a 20 or a 54 means that for every unit bet you'd get 20 or 54 units back if successful. What does a 1/2 or 11/20 or 4/7 mean on those charts? That you only get half your original bet back? Or half + your original bet?

A 1-2 means if you put up $2 you get your bet +$1. Consider the odds as a fraction, 4/7, multiply by your bet, then add your bet (B * (4/7) + B = your winnings). So in a 4/7 if you bet 20 bucks you'll get 31.43 or so back if you win (that includes your original bet).

This is *way* off topic.
posted by dis_integration at 10:28 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


oh wow! i never really gave it any thought before, but what if trump is an actual ferret with a really large anal cyst?!?!?!

Hm, interesting. I never knew ferrets could do handstands.
posted by sexyrobot at 10:29 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


This is *way* off topic.

Probability 101 is 5000% on topic.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:31 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Hillary's biggest problem is that she doesn't sell herself enough. She's done a ton of good stuff, but the constant attacks put her on the defensive, which she doesn't do well.

She should spin the stumble as "There's a lot of Americans that go to work even though they're not feeling well, because they have to, because our health care system, while filled with great care, isn't accessible to them. If they can't call out sick, the least I could do is soldier on."

And "Am I going to walk back my deplorable comments? Look, there's video of some of his supporters calling for me to be arrested, killed and what have you. Honestly, deplorable was the most diplomatic way of calling them out."

She really needs to do stuff like that and stop apologizing, because she's got little to apologize for.


Okay but this is really interesting, dialectically, because maybe there's a reason/context why she doesn't do all this. If the solution sounds so simple ("She doesn't do X enough"; "She really needs to do X"), and yet the person doesn't operationalize these various of solutions, that's potentially suggestive of political orientation. The analysis should go on from there.
posted by polymodus at 10:31 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


A little late, but Faint of Butt and Pope Guilty, it's worth it to read the ?annual? worst political cartoon 'Gay Abortions' awards that pop up in D&D. It's like a condensed version of the lumbering dinosaur that is the political cartoon threads, and while all the horror is thus condensed even further, it does save on clicking.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 10:32 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is it actually ageism to say "All else being equal, a 70-year-old man is more likely to die in the next four to eight years than a 50-year-old man"?

Yes. Yes, it is. It's the same kind of bullshit that leads companies not to hire old people because "all else being equal", they're more likely to die, or not to hire women because "all else being equal", they're more likely to take time off for pregnancy.

If you don't want to vote for someone based on their VP pick, because being President is a pretty dangerous and draining job, and there's an 18 percent chance that they're going to die in office, fine. But explicitly tying it to the candidate's age is ageism.
posted by Etrigan at 10:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm not saying I'm against Hillary for goodness' sake, but it's interesting to me when "concerns" from past elections are dredged up again and flipped in current ones and I wanted to try and participate in an election thread by sharing my observation. That's all.

And it was more than just the press who had concerns, but I don't have the time right now to go trawling around to provide proper citations to defend.
posted by kimberussell at 10:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


I was thinking some more about the "Clinton is the real racist" right wing meme and it really blows my mind that it doesn't bother the people who believe that mess that people of color obviously don't see it that way. I was trying to understand the mental gymnastics required to believe that the person people of color tell you is racist is not racist and the person they say isn't racist actually is. And the only answer I can come up with is that they're somehow convinced they understand racism better than people of color do, which, frankly, is its own kind of alternate universe of mind-blowing racism. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, given that this comes from the same people who think old men are the best arbiters of the health of young women.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:34 AM on September 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


From that WaPo article linked waaayy upthread:
Clinton’s doctor did release a letter detailing some aspects of her health, but she has not released as much medical information as some prior presidential candidates, including Arizona Sen. John McCain, who in 2008 released more than a thousand pages of medical records to be scrutinized by the media.
Suggesting that there may be something duplicitous about not releasing 1000+ pages of medical records seems a bit farfetched, even for current journalistic standards.
posted by Superplin at 10:34 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Is it actually ageism to say "All else being equal, a 70-year-old man is more likely to die in the next four to eight years than a 50-year-old man"?

Well, the unstated part of this phrase is "therefore we should deny him a shot at the presidency," and, yes, that's what makes it agism.

But it isn't actually true, when it comes to presidents. Eight US presidents have died in office, four assassinated, four of natural causes. The oldest to die of natural causes was Harrison at 68. Once you get past that point, statistically you seem to have a pretty good chance of surviving the presidency.

I mean, I suppose McCain might yet die before Obama leaves office, but at this moment we know he would have survived his first term and, if reelected, almost the majority of his second term.
posted by maxsparber at 10:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


I wanted to try and participate in an election thread by sharing my observation. That's all.

And if I discouraged that, I am truly sorry. I should've phrased it better. I hope you continue to post.
posted by chris24 at 10:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Not to applaud tricks from 'Manchurian Candidate' too loudly, but note we're debating not IF Trump supporters are deplorable, but how many

Far from being a gaffe, Clinton's comment was a well-executed one-two punch. Her alt-right speech was a detailed, well-citationed analysis of Trump's support that the media blew off with false equivalency and now people are talking about exactly how many of his supporters are racists.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


(MSNBC, right now) -- Gov. Granholm is a great surrogate.

She hits exactly the right balance between frustration, eye-rolling amusement at the ridiculousness of the GREAT HEALTH SCARE OF SEPTEMBER 2016 & quiet confidence that we'll get through this.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


DirtyOldTown: the only answer I can come up with is that they're somehow convinced they understand racism better than people of color do

In my experience this particular kind of white person shows up on both the right and the left, albeit for very different reasons. But yes, there are great big swaths of white people who think they "get" racism better than POC.

disclaimer: i am a white people
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 10:37 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Gov. Granholm is a great surrogate.

Every time I've seen her she's been amazing. And I was unfamiliar until this election.
posted by chris24 at 10:38 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


yes, there are great big swaths of white people who think they "get" racism better than POC

Obviously, that has to be the case. But it's still a fundamentally weird notion, so much so that one wonders how it can even survive being said aloud.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:39 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]



In my experience this particular kind of white person shows up on both the right and the left, albeit for very different reasons. But yes, there are great big swaths of white people who think they "get" racism better than POC.


Yes, right, left, in the middle, and all over the Metafilter. This is totally a thing, I am a PoC.
posted by zutalors! at 10:40 AM on September 12, 2016 [20 favorites]


but at this moment we know he would have survived his first term

That's not how counterfactuals work. Maybe being president was enough to kill him? But yeah I think speculation about a candidates health is squicky and thought so in '08. McCain chanting "bomb iran" to the tune of "Barbara Ann" was all I needed to see to never vote for him.
posted by dis_integration at 10:40 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Obviously, that has to be the case. But it's still a fundamentally weird notion, so much so that one wonders how it can even survive being said aloud

A lot of white people are not used to actually speaking to PoC rather than about them.
posted by zutalors! at 10:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [39 favorites]


Gov. Granholm is a great surrogate.

Every time I've seen her she's been amazing. And I was unfamiliar until this election.


If you want to see the power of Not Giving Any More Fucks, Granholm is a great example. She can't run for Governor of Michigan anymore because we have stupid term limits, and she can't be President because she was born in Canada. She could maybe take a Cabinet job, but why would she even want to? And thus, she has decided, Fuck This Shit, and it is pretty goddamn glorious.

(Also, her early life is hilarious and awesome.)
posted by Etrigan at 10:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [36 favorites]


A little late, but Faint of Butt and Pope Guilty, it's worth it to read the ?annual? worst political cartoon 'Gay Abortions' awards that pop up in D&D. It's like a condensed version of the lumbering dinosaur that is the political cartoon threads, and while all the horror is thus condensed even further, it does save on clicking.

Oh, yeah, I keep an eye out for the Gay Abortions awards every January. It's a lot less stressful when it's not every single day, you know?
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:42 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


That's not how counterfactuals work.

If McCain had been president, it is.
posted by maxsparber at 10:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


A lot of white people are not used to actually speaking to PoC rather than about them.

It brings to mind the Meta about "derp" that included lots of people dissecting the issue "intellectually" and ignoring the disabled people voicing their experiences in that very thread. It's the same kind of attitude.

the kind of shit people say when they think a person of the group they're talking about isn't in the room shouldn't still shock me, but it does
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 10:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [20 favorites]


comment that was going to say what Etrigan said above

Excepting that-- I'd love to see her in the Cabinet or the Senate if she wants to do so.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:47 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


saw someone on Twitter saying Hillary's going to "Al Gore this shit," as if Al Gore lost because he was a bad person and not because Americans run screaming away from reality and facts and basic literacy.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:48 AM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


Regarding white people thinking they know more about racism than anyone else, Clickhole was on this topic a few months back.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:48 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


If anyone is interested in listening to the Tim Kaine speech from Saturday night's HRC gala you can watch & listen to it here. The comments they're talking about in this article are at about the 17 minute mark. He has some other remarks on faith and accepting the diversity of creation immediately following.

It's an enjoyable speech. I was somewhat surprised to look up this recording and find it was a half hour long. Didn't feel that long. (Spoiler: no dad jokes. He made me tear up a few times. He also never asked someone to "take that fucking Wells Fargo logo off the wall while I speak to you; did you not read my bio?")

At the 5 minute mark he thanks whoever decided he'd speak before John Lewis "who is an impossible act to follow." He ain't wrong. You can watch that speech here, and while I am not in disagreement that I don't know much about raising chickens I did raise one once so I'm not completely dumb. But then again I also remembered the Sears wishbook.

I am also still not sure, after a second listen, what that has to do with anything. But honestly I'd happily have listened to John Lewis talk about chickens for a whole hour. And it was worth the setup for the Senate/Chicken Burn of 2016.
posted by phearlez at 10:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Heh. If I had a nickel for every time a white person has explained racism to me. White people learn that their opinions are always welcome and worthwhile and that they are neutral and unbiased in matters of race (unlike POC, who can't help being biased because of the very fact that they are affected by racism), so it's not really that surprising, but yes, looked at another way it is mind-boggling.
posted by sunset in snow country at 10:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [41 favorites]


If you want to see the power of Not Giving Any More Fucks, Granholm is a great example. She can't run for Governor of Michigan anymore because we have stupid term limits, and she can't be President because she was born in Canada. She could maybe take a Cabinet job, but why would she even want to? And thus, she has decided, Fuck This Shit, and it is pretty goddamn glorious.

I'm still happy that I got to vote for her in 2002. And not just because she was running against Dick Posthumus. (I mean, has there ever been a more Republican name? Talk about linguistic determinism)

posted by rp at 10:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


saw someone on Twitter saying Hillary's going to "Al Gore this shit," as if Al Gore lost because he was a bad person and not because Americans run screaming away from reality and facts and basic literacy.

It didn't help that Gore ran screaming away from literally the most popular president of the last fifty years.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


Re: white people who think they understand racism better than POC:

Obviously, that has to be the case. But it's still a fundamentally weird notion, so much so that one wonders how it can even survive being said aloud.

I mean, you're talking about the same people who populate the All Lives Matter movement. It's a fundamentally weird notion but it's also very obviously how a large swath of white people in this country think, and it really should not come as a surprise to anyone here.
posted by palomar at 10:54 AM on September 12, 2016


Heh. If I had a nickel for every time a white person has explained racism to me. White people learn that their opinions are always welcome and worthwhile and that they are neutral and unbiased in matters of race (unlike POC, who can't help being biased because of the very fact that they are affected by racism), so it's not really that surprising, but yes, looked at another way it is mind-boggling.

I think as a non-POC who tries to be on the right side of things, it's a bit like being a feminist man hearing about sexism. That is, we try to listen, and of course we know you're telling the truth and we absolutely believe when it's explained to us how bad and how pervasive the problem is. And we try to respect that and incorporate that information into our worldview. But every now and then, we get a slightly different angle on things that makes us realize all over again exactly how bad and pervasive this shit really is. It's not that we weren't listening before, it's just that occasional moments of being stunned by the reality of the thing are needed to hammer things home.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


just because she was running against Dick Posthumus

Holy Mother of God I assumed that was a joke, like the candidate had died or something. Nope.
posted by waitingtoderail at 10:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [28 favorites]


yes, there are great big swaths of white people who think they "get" racism better than POC

Obviously, that has to be the case. But it's still a fundamentally weird notion, so much so that one wonders how it can even survive being said aloud.


Because those same people think there's a sizable number of complaints about racism that are BS. Because they have convinced themselves that denying another person's lived experience is perfectly reasonable. Because they don't see the racism in that.
posted by phearlez at 10:55 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


It didn't help that Gore ran screaming away from literally the most popular president of the last fifty years.

Yeah who would think distancing yourself from a president who had just had an impeachment hearing (albeit an unsuccessful impeachment) might be a good idea?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh good we can re-litigate Bush/Gore in ANOTHER thread.

(that's sarcasm: let's not, please)
posted by phearlez at 10:58 AM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


Because those same people think there's a sizable number of complaints about racism that are BS.

Well, by definition they're minority opinions.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:00 AM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


Slowclap.gif
posted by phearlez at 11:01 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Suggesting that there may be something duplicitous about not releasing 1000+ pages of medical records seems a bit farfetched, even for current journalistic standards.

I'll give NPR credit for mentioning this morning that McCain released an unusually large amount of medical information, and for noting that the letter from Trump's doctor appeared to be ... a hasty piece of work.

(You know what else is traditional for candidates to release? Their tax returns...)
posted by Gelatin at 11:01 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


(sorry, this is my first election mefi thread.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:01 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


just because she was running against Dick Posthumus

Holy Mother of God I assumed that was a joke, like the candidate had died or something. Nope.


They pronounce it pretty much the same, too.
posted by Etrigan at 11:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Bill de Blasio: I have pneumonia.
Andrew Cuomo: Some people talk the talk about pneumonia. I have DOUBLE pneumonia.
BDB: You're so mean.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:04 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah who would think distancing yourself from a president who had just had an impeachment hearing (albeit an unsuccessful impeachment) might be a good idea?

When it's an impeachment hearing that saw public opinion firmly on the side of the impeached and actually saw presidential approval ratings go up in response? Why, somebody who thinks the electorate is far more right-wing than it actually is, to the point of appointing the most right-wing Democrat short of Zell Miller still in office at the time as Veep.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:05 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]




Yeah who would think distancing yourself from a president who had just had an impeachment hearing (albeit an unsuccessful impeachment) might be a good idea?

Clinton's approval rating increased after the impeachment. He finished his term in office with the highest approval rating of any President going back to Truman.
posted by JackFlash at 11:07 AM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


(sorry, this is my first election mefi thread.)

My god, man, you have no idea what you've done. Not even the faintest grasp. Run while you still can.
posted by Mayor West at 11:12 AM on September 12, 2016 [55 favorites]


Lindsey Graham: 35 percent of GOP is racist

"Thirty-five percent of my party believes that Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya; [Trump] has locked that crowd down," he replied. "Now, sixty-five percent of us just think he's a bad president."

From March. I guess that 15% difference is big.
posted by chris24 at 11:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [28 favorites]


I gotta say, as long as he's nowhere near being able to command any military forces, I kinda like NGAF Lindsey Graham.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:15 AM on September 12, 2016 [27 favorites]


Regarding white people who understand racism better than POC... if this is clear to everyone, what that really means is white people think they know what's best for minorities. Clinton is racist because she only panders to minorities to get their votes but won't actually do anything that will help minorities improve their lives. Trump isn't racist because he knows the right way to fix the lives of minorities and will act on his beliefs. That's the mindset that allows white people to think they understand racism best. POC want special or preferential treatment, and that's racist. White people just want everyone treated the same, and that's not racist.

It's an idiotic position to take, of course, because you have to ignore a whole heck of a lot of history and economics to make it work. But that's where it comes from.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:15 AM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


So far in 2016...
- Bowie and Prince
- Leicester City win the Premiership
- Brexit
- David Cameron is no longer Prime Minister or even an MP
- Trump is nearly President
- ...and the Great British Bake Off is leaving the BBC
posted by Wordshore at 11:16 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]




The inimitable Jay Smooth provides the bottom-line answer to what percentage of Trump supporters can be counted as deplorable.
posted by shelbaroo at 11:20 AM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


(sorry, this is my first election mefi thread.)

We're going to need you to read all the previous election threads before participating in the current thread. Why do you think tehhund is continuing his ceaseless slog through election threads past? He knows what is required of him.

(jk you don't need to do that because time is a flat circle and the election threads especially so)

(just ignore my deafening harpy screech if you inadvertently re-start an argument we had five threads ago)
posted by yasaman at 11:20 AM on September 12, 2016 [35 favorites]


(sorry, this is my first election mefi thread.)

Please commit this list of permanently litigated topics to memory:

Emails
Servers
Infosec
Corbs personal political views
Any other thread participant's personal political views
Infosex (long story)
The Crusades
A racist thing some guy on the street said
A racist thing some Bernie bro on Facebook said
Diagnosis: Murder
Non-edible uses of cheese
Regional slang
Bernie vs Hillary
Obama vs Hillary
Stein vs Hillary
Bill vs Hillary
HRC vs Hillary
Killary vs Chillary
Drones
Any election after 1992
Evens in which you can

posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:21 AM on September 12, 2016 [108 favorites]


- ...and the Great British Bake Off is leaving the BBC

Wait, WHAT??
posted by anastasiav at 11:21 AM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


And don't forget
Stein vs Harambe
posted by filthy light thief at 11:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


The inimitable Jay Smooth provides the bottom-line answer yt to what percentage of Trump supporters can be counted as deplorable.

Quoth Mr. Smooth: "I'm sure there are soe people who come to a cross-burning because they just really like making s'mores... but once you get there, and you see the burning cross and you don't leave, at that point, you have chosen to be at a cross-burning."
posted by tonycpsu at 11:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [83 favorites]


Wait, WHAT??

Everything is ruined.
posted by Wordshore at 11:25 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


A lot of white people are not used to actually speaking to PoC rather than about them.

And even fewer are used to speaking with PoC rather than to them.
posted by biogeo at 11:25 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


We could use more pics of Tim Kaine eating, though. Not just Tim Kaine holding food, Tim Kaine eating. I'm a little worried that I'm going to become a truther about this.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 11:25 AM on September 12, 2016


New YouGov poll doesn't mince words and flat out asks if people think Trump is racist. Not biased against minorities, not racially insensitive.

54% Racist
34% Not Racist
13% Not sure

And bad news for the future of the Rs: Under 30 age group? 77% racist.
posted by chris24 at 11:26 AM on September 12, 2016 [41 favorites]



A lot of white people are not used to actually speaking to PoC rather than about them.

And even fewer are used to speaking with PoC rather than to them.


when I said "To" I essentially meant with but let's keep correcting and parsing, sure.
posted by zutalors! at 11:27 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm a little worried that I'm going to become a truther about this.

"Hello worried, I'm Tim Kaine! Eat your vegetables to grow up big and strong!"
posted by Talez at 11:27 AM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


And bad news for the future of the Rs: Under 30 age group? 77% [believe Trump is] racist.

How long have the younger generation been the threat of the Republican party? I've heard it said that (many) people become Republican upon buying their first home, but it didn't happen to me and my wife (or anyone in our generation who now owns a house, TBH).
posted by filthy light thief at 11:30 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Filthy, here's an article on how voters tend to stick with the first party they join.
posted by chris24 at 11:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't mean to put words into your mouth, filthy light thief. But reading that, it did send me off on my own tangent. My immediate reaction was: if becoming a stolidly middle class homeowner makes a person more likely to become a Republican, then dismantling the middle class such that becoming a homeowner was harder for millennials to pull off probably wasn't an awesome long-term strategy.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [50 favorites]


I've heard it said that (many) people become Republican upon buying their first home, but it didn't happen to me and my wife (or anyone in our generation who now owns a house, TBH).

I think it happens when you sell a home and all of a sudden you have an opinion about the capital gains tax.
posted by Talez at 11:34 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


when I said "To" I essentially meant with but let's keep correcting and parsing, sure.

Sorry if that came across as critical of your statement. I was trying to expand your core point, which I thought was well put, to get at the concept that there are many levels of engagement in dialog with people outside our home communities. I seem to have let my impulse to be pithy and clever trample effective communication.
posted by biogeo at 11:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


This just seem so strategically dumb, to the point where it makes me question whether it's a matter of them knowing something I don't or that they are really just this dumb.

If I had a nickle for every time I've had this thought since the conventions, I'd have a LOT of nickles. I'm just realizing that I haven't really been able to articulate the feeling and this comment captures in perfectly!

I think it comes down to a lack of critical thinking. Most people just don't understand that they're idiots. I'm an idiot, I'm always going to be an idiot. When I was 10, I could think of the 5-year-old version of myself and know that they little turn was a moron. At 15, I knew my 10yo self to be an idiot. At 20, 15yo me is the dumb one, and so on. Eventually I realized that five years from now, I'm going to realize that the things I think today are the thoughts of an idiot and it's always going to be that way despite my efforts to continually improve. "Idiot" is really short-hand for something more nuanced but I can be as self-depreciating in my head as I want.

This leads me to assume that my opinions should always be suspect so I think about my opinions critically. I do research to refine and inform those opinions and in some cases, change them entirely. And, I'm always ready to adjust my opinions based on new information be it new to the world or just new to me.

Most people don't do this or aren't very good at it. We're all idiots, not a lot of us know it. Lastly, because I'm an idiot, this might also be totally wrong and I'd be happy to hear the reasons why.
posted by VTX at 11:37 AM on September 12, 2016 [36 favorites]



when I said "To" I essentially meant with but let's keep correcting and parsing, sure.

Sorry if that came across as critical of your statement. I was trying to expand your core point, which I thought was well put, to get at the concept that there are many levels of engagement in dialog with people outside our home communities. I seem to have let my impulse to be pithy and clever trample effective communication.


Thanks!
posted by zutalors! at 11:38 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


I keep waiting for this much-heralded GOP demographic death spiral to finally arrive, but here we are in the Year of our Lord 2016 and Trump's two or three percent behind Hillary.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:39 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


On the topic of talking to white people about race, here's a helpful video that soren_lorensen posted in the prior thread: How To Protect White People's Feelings In The Workplace "Just as it's important to be sensitive to our black, Arab and other non-white co-workers, it's equally important to be sensitive to our white co-workers sensitivity to that sensitivity."

"Being sensitive to white fragility is difficult, which is why we've devised a simple system to foster a non-hostile work environment for your white employees voters:
Stop
Ignore
Listen
Empathize
Never
Complain
Eat"

{/HAMBURGER}
posted by filthy light thief at 11:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


Trump's two or three percent behind Hillary

Among likely voters (usually). And how each poll decides who is and is not a "likely voter" is their own special sauce that sometimes is accurate-ish and sometimes is way off.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:42 AM on September 12, 2016




It seems to me that the obvious response to people complaining about the "basket of deplorables" comment is something along the lines of "she's the only one with the guts to say what everyone's thinking!"

Maybe folks are saying that, I can't deal with staying very current these days.
posted by nickmark at 11:46 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


Oh, and Trump ended his speech today with "We will be one people, under one God."

One God. Wonder which that is?
posted by chris24 at 11:47 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wotan? Kali? I mean, if he wins, it's a strong argument in their favor.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:48 AM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


Donald Trump.
posted by biogeo at 11:48 AM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


A drowning pool for Dagon in every home by 2018!
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


"We will be one people, under one God."

or else!
posted by emjaybee at 11:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Oh, and Trump ended his speech today with "We will be one people, under one God."

One God. Wonder which that is?


Best guess? Gozer, the Destructor.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [35 favorites]


I keep waiting for this much-heralded GOP demographic death spiral to finally arrive, but here we are in the Year of our Lord 2016 and Trump's two or three percent behind Hillary.

Well, not sure it's the death spiral, but prior to 1992, Rs had won 5 of 6 presidential elections by huge landslides. And the one D win was a very close race despite coming after Nixon's impeachment, pardoning and the end of Vietnam.

Since 1992, Ds have won 5 of 6 popular votes, hopefully about to be 6 of 7. So progress has been made.
posted by chris24 at 11:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


He's going on about the baskets of deplorable thing now. Please Donald, not the briar patch yt !
I suspect many of Trump's supporters have VHS bootlegs of that movie, since Disney won't release it anymore.


Just want to verify that this is literally the case in my household. My mom went to some trouble to procure a copy of it to show me and my sister. She coached me to sing "Zippedy Doo Da" on my birthday at preschool. We also had Amos 'n' Andy. My parents have (blessedly) abandoned their fandoms, but my grandparents are in their 90s and still railing about why they had to take Amos 'n' Andy off the air. All are voting Trump.
posted by witchen at 11:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


Since 1992, Ds have won 5 of 6 popular votes, hopefully about to be 6 of 7. So progress has been made.

And while Congressional Republicans have indulged in unprecedented obstructionism, in time of war and recession, to Obama's agenda, it's also true that Obama's presence in the Oval Office is a firm check on the likes of Paul Ryan getting to enact their Randian blueprint for America.

Which is no cause for complacency -- the White House is bound to go Republican one of these days, which is why it only makes sense for the Democrats to try to achieve majority everywhere and all the time. (Especially in 2020, when control of pre-redistricting state houses will be at stake.)
posted by Gelatin at 11:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wotan? Kali? I mean, if he wins, it's a strong argument in their favor.

Shivakamini Somakandarkram!!!!
posted by dis_integration at 11:59 AM on September 12, 2016


New YouGov poll doesn't mince words and flat out asks if people think Trump is racist. Not biased against minorities, not racially insensitive.

54% Racist
34% Not Racist
13% Not sure


My worry is that a lot of people think that's a good thing.
posted by msalt at 12:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


>I suspect many of Trump's supporters have VHS bootlegs of that movie, since Disney won't release it anymore.

Just want to verify that this is literally the case in my household. My mom procured a copy of it to show me and my sister. We also had Amos 'n' Andy.


Wait, it's a... movie? I only know Peter Rabbit from the children's books

Is... is the movie... is it very racist?

He's going on about the baskets of deplorable thing now. Please Donald, not the briar patch yt !

Huh, when a section of text containing a youtube link is copy-pasted, the link gets replaced by the text 'yt'.

posted by tivalasvegas at 12:00 PM on September 12, 2016


There are two reasons the GOP is in a death spiral. One is, yep: demographic change. The other is that "FUCK YOU GOT MINE" only works as a rallying cry if enough people get theirs.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:01 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


> My parents have (blessedly) abandoned their fandoms, but my grandparents are in their 90s and still railing about why they had to take Amos 'n' Andy off the air.

Every now and again I find something like this or this in the bins at thrift stores when I'm digging for records, and my initial response is "Wow, this must be *really* old, like from the 1920s." And then I check the label and it's usually from the early-to-mid '60s. Which is still a long time ago, but only a few years away from being within my lifetime. So not very long ago at all.

One of the reviews from the second link: "If you recall an age when it was the music and not the politics that mattered then you will enjoy once again the wonderful songs of the Black and White Minstrels." Ah yes, what an age that was.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:03 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


True, though the GOP has long managed to convince a certain group of voters that "fuck you I will get mine someday (maybe, sort of, I hope, could always win the lotto I guess)" is just as good as "fuck you got mine" and to vote accordingly.
posted by zachlipton at 12:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wait, it's a... movie? I only know Peter Rabbit from the children's books

Is... is the movie... is it very racist?


Song of the South has Br'er Rabbit, not Peter Rabbit. The kinda minstrelsy tone to the stories would be a problem on its own, but possibly worse is how goddamned delighted the African-Americans in the live action sequences are to be servile and/or slaves. (Though I don't think it's ever specified they're slaves, it'd be bad enough if they were just super-excited and grateful to be servants.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:05 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


One God. Wonder which that is?

Wikipedia:
Mammon /ˈmæmən/ in the New Testament of the Bible is commonly thought to mean money or material wealth and is associated with the greedy pursuit of gain. . . . In the Middle Ages it was often personified as a deity and sometimes included in the seven princes of Hell.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 12:05 PM on September 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


Wait, it's a... movie? I only know Peter Rabbit from the children's books

The reference is to Br'er Rabbit and the movie Song of the South, rather than Peter Rabbit.

Is... is the movie... is it very racist?

Yeah, it's pretty racist.
posted by nickmark at 12:06 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wait, it's a... movie? I only know Peter Rabbit from the children's books

Is... is the movie... is it very racist?


Ohhhh ho ho, OH MY you precious innocent. I envy that you don't know how ugly this is. It's a story about a kindly old enslaved gentleman, Uncle Remus, who has a friendship with the white boy on the plantation, and he tells the boy many stories (for some reason--it's been a while, and I don't remember many of the particulars beyond the setting. I think the boy may have been sick? with the mumps?). The stories, in text, are all written in a dialect that lets you know for sure the (white) author has contempt for African Americans. It's barely legible, so you have to read it aloud (and become complicit in the caricature of Uncle Remus) in order to understand it.

One of the characters in the stories is Br'er Rabbit, who has misadventures in a briar patch and something to do with a tar baby. I'm afraid to google any of that at work.

And the movie, Song of the South, is one of the animation + live action ones by Disney, kind of like Pete's Dragon, but verrrrry racist. On preview: yes, it is especially awful because of the implication that everyone was there more or less voluntarily and having a GREAT time, either because their owners are so good-natured or because they're just simpletons who love a good story. Or mix of both. It's abhorrent.
posted by witchen at 12:06 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


BREAKING: Trump releases anti-Trump ad

The ad doesn't just show Clinton calling half of Trump supporters deplorable, but actually shows her doing the laundry list of why - "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic candidate" - while showing his supporters cheering. And doesn't even refute the charge.

This will be a big TV buy in OH, FL, NC and PA.


Wow, Team Hillary should shovel a couple $million more to Trump's campaign so that they can give it saturation coverage in even more states. An ad proudly proclaiming that "Yes, in fact I AM the racist, sexist, homophobic, islamophobic, anti-immigrant candidate" is going to fire up the racist base but send everybody else running the opposite direction . . . .
posted by flug at 12:08 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Donald Trump says if Hillary Clinton wins, U.S. will 'have a whole different church structure'

Save the Nave, Vote for the Knave: TRUMP 2016
posted by zakur at 12:09 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


> "fuck you I will get mine someday (maybe, sort of, I hope, could always win the lotto I guess)" is just as good as "fuck you got mine" and to vote accordingly.

This mindset seems to be reaching its logical endpoint, which is just "Fuck you."
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:11 PM on September 12, 2016 [40 favorites]


"It's a story about a kindly old enslaved gentleman, Uncle Remus, who has a friendship with the white boy on the plantation, and he tells the boy many stories (for some reason--it's been a while, and I don't remember many of the particulars beyond the setting. I think the boy may have been sick? with the mumps?)."

So it's the work of racists and anti-vaxxers? Maybe Disney will release it from the vault with its new title Song of the Trump.
posted by komara at 12:12 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


passport2dreams has an excellent explainer for Song of the South.
posted by chrchr at 12:13 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


Donald Trump says if Hillary Clinton wins, U.S. will 'have a whole different church structure'

"I served with Emperor Constantine. I knew Emperor Constantine. Emperor Constantine was a friend of mine. Hey dipshit -- you're no Emperor Constantine."
posted by PlusDistance at 12:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I believe Trump is actually aligned with Emperor Palpatine. Common mistake.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:16 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]




I suspect many of Trump's supporters have VHS bootlegs of that movie, since Disney won't release it anymore.

Oh hey, we own one of these.

My mom used to work with a woman (my mom teaches, so note that this woman is a teacher, and talked about this at work i.e. school) who was one of those southern people who might not be actively in the KKK but likes to talkbrag about how she has significant ties to certain organizations and also complains about getting MLK Day off as a holiday, though I'm sure that's entirely unrelated.

Anyway, my mom was lamenting after school one day in a discussion about Disney music about how Song of the South has been wiped off the face of the earth because otherwise the music is good and the stories are good and the thing has cultural worth and she wanted my brother and me to know about it, and this woman pipes up "oh! I can get you a copy!" A few days later, a tape showed up. It had Chinese subtitles. My mom sat us down before we watched it and explained why it was problematic and why the racist KKK lady had a copy, and then we all watched it and never touched it again.

So, yeah.
posted by phunniemee at 12:17 PM on September 12, 2016 [60 favorites]


"I served with Emperor Constantine. I knew Emperor Constantine. Emperor Constantine was a friend of mine. Hey dipshit -- you're no Emperor Constantine."

You misspelled Palpatine. HTH. [/usenet]
posted by The Bellman at 12:17 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


In a small piece of good news, The Great British Bake Off will switch to Channel 4 from the BBC. I watch this show with my grandmother, a republican, and it helps us bridge the political/generational gap. I think she's starting to come around. She asked me about Hillary's health yesterday and was happy to know Hillary (allegedly) wears kevlar because in her words "there are all the crazies out there". Hope, folks.
posted by erisfree at 12:18 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


Oh, yeah, no, I was conflating Br'er Rabbit and Peter Rabbit -- not the Beatrix Potter one, but the Thornton Burgess one.

Much less problematic. Although now that I know they're on Project Gutenberg I'll probably read them and be appalled
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:20 PM on September 12, 2016


The crazy thing about the Uncle Remus stories was how HUGE they were at the time. Beatrix Potter illustrated them. Mark Twain read them to his children. AA Milne was read them as a child, he referred to them as "the sacred book" and they partly inspired his later Winnie the Pooh. They've been called by children's literature scholars as "irrefutably the central event in the making of modern children's story."

They have a mixed legacy, to be sure.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:21 PM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


11 Private Security Firms Guarding Donald Trump
“It is unprecedented,” said one high-level official with knowledge of the Secret Service machinations. “The apparatus surrounding Mr. Trump is extensive to the point of looking dysfunctional.”

And the dysfunction is glaring. The Trump campaign first told me that all questions regarding security should be directed to the Secret Service. But the Secret Service told me that Trump’s private security is considered campaign staff, and so any questions about them would have to be answered by the campaign. The campaign, informed of this, replied, “no comment.” Further requests for comment were met with a slightly wordier but no more helpful reply: “We have no comment on security personnel and procedures.”
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:21 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Some New York Times hypothetical penance-seeking: NY Times Editor Said He'd Risk Jail To Publish Trump's Taxes
posted by palindromic at 12:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


All I can say is Implacable Nemesis has been awfully slow to answer my prayers.
posted by whuppy at 12:22 PM on September 12, 2016


I inherited an old hardback copy, and will attest that, being written entirely in the Gullah dialect, can be quite difficult to parse unless read out loud, for example:

He come mighty nigh it, honey, sho’s you born—Brer Fox did. One day atter Brer Rabbit fool ’im wid dat calamus root, Brer Fox went ter wuk en got ’im some tar, en mix it wid some turkentime, en fix up a contrapshun w’at he call a Tar-Baby, en he tuck dish yer Tar-Baby en he sot ’er in de big road, en den he lay off in de bushes fer to see what de news wuz gwine ter be. En he didn’t hatter wait long, nudder, kaze bimeby here come Brer Rabbit pacin’ down de road—lippity-clippity, clippity -lippity—dez ez sassy ez a jay-bird. Brer Fox, he lay low. Brer Rabbit come prancin’ ’long twel he spy de Tar-Baby, en den he fotch up on his behime legs like he wuz ’stonished. De Tar Baby, she sot dar, she did, en Brer Fox, he lay low.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:24 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


DDale: "This is a list of things Trump said in one interview on CNBC this morning."

Donald Trump gave an interview this morning that should be shocking — but we’re numb
Donald Trump went on CNBC this morning, and, over the course of a wide-ranging interview, once again reminded the world of the most fundamental fact about his candidacy — he doesn’t really seem to understand any aspect of American public policy.
posted by peeedro at 12:25 PM on September 12, 2016 [24 favorites]


Just to complete the thought on Song of the South, the movie is based on a series of folk tales written by a white Southern dude based on his experiences being told the tales while growing up with slaves (though not owning them). On the one hand, these are real folk tales, and this is one of the few written representations of lost (erased) African culture. On the other hand, they are presented in the worst possible context: rewritten by a slavery apologist to serve his own nostalgic gloop glop.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:26 PM on September 12, 2016 [43 favorites]


DDale: "This is a list of things Trump said in one interview on CNBC this morning."

Wow. Well, I'm quite sure that the media will do their due diligence and follow-up on all of those, right? I mean, Clinton is in the doghouse for not being transparent enough with her health, surely the media will take Donald to task for his propensity to obfuscate, distort, and outright lie? Daniel seemed a little upset yesterday that the media got criticized for the coverage of Clinton's health, so I'm sure he won't let this opportunity go by to show that they apply the same level of scrutiny to both candidates.

[sorry if I dripped too much sarcasm into the thread]
posted by nubs at 12:27 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Please commit this list of permanently litigated topics to memory:

Can we also get a list of ongoing in jokes? The Steves and Merediths coming in could use a refresher.
posted by numaner at 12:27 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Well, I'm quite sure that the media will do their due diligence and follow-up on all of those, right?

The gist of the Yglesias article peedro linked to is that while much of that interview would be huge news in a normal election cycle, the media will basically give Trump a pass because Trump being an ignorant racist isn't news.
posted by Gelatin at 12:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Meredith will write the list
posted by TwoWordReview at 12:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


I met someone new this weekend who was named Steve and caught myself right before I said, "Christ, not another one."

This election, man.
posted by Tevin at 12:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


Just to complete the thought on Song of the South, the movie is based on a series of folk tales written by a white Southern dude based on his experiences being told the tales while growing up with slaves (though not owning them). On the one hand, these are real folks tales, and this is on of the few representations of lost (erased) African culture. On the other hand, they are presented in the worst possible context: rewritten by a slavery apologist to serve his own nostalgic gloop glop.

Even after writing all of those stories, Harris never realized that he wasn't the rabbit in the story; he was the fox.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I gotta say, as long as he's nowhere near being able to command any military forces, I kinda like NGAF Lindsey Graham.

I gotta say, as long as he doesn't apologize for being a Clinton impeachment manager, I'll never really like Lindsey Graham.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Being a filthy foreigner gives me a sense of how politics manifests itself differently from place to place. My dad (old Labour, in his seventies) was a very firm Brexit voter, but he thinks that Trump is, I quote, "a nutter."

The craziest bit from the past week for me has been the "if I don't get the uuuuugest welcoming party I'll fly AF1 straight out." He really thinks the job entails being an imperial potentate who will rain down favour and disfavour based precisely upon the amount of toadying he receives.
posted by holgate at 12:31 PM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


I won't say I like Lindsey Graham, but I do have a soft spot for him for voting to confirm Sotomayor and Kagan.
posted by zutalors! at 12:32 PM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


Is it confirmation bias at work, or are conservatives really a whole lot more into fake charities and lies about charitable giving?

I'm asking because I remember Rush Limbaugh (never forget, in addition to being a drug addicted drug warrior, he's also almost certainly raped children), Donald Trump, and Palin all had fake charities or other lies about charities going on.

Am I just not noticing similar shenanigans among liberals, or are conservatives really doing more fake charity stuff?

On the Song of the South topic, officially Song of the South takes place post-war and none of the characters are slaves. Just really, really, super duper happy, to be submissive servants to their vastly superior white owners, er, employers.

It's also in a weird place because on the one hand Disney wants everyone to forget it exists, they've never released it on DVD and they're vicious about seeking out any pirated copies of the limited VHS release, it's also the basis of one of their more popular rides.
posted by sotonohito at 12:35 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


What happens if Trump realizes his outlandish antics no longer get him news time? Does he ratchet up the crazy rhetoric? Clinton gets sick(the outrage!) and takes away his screen time. If that continues, what's his next play, if any?
posted by Twain Device at 12:35 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I've gone a whole 16 hours without following the election or the election threads. Which is a new record for me. Someone let me know when the news cycle moves on from the CLINTON DEATHWATCH so my panic level doesn't cause an explosion.

JCPL: limbo
posted by Justinian at 12:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


He hasn't said anything about her being sick yet has he? I find that weird.
posted by zutalors! at 12:37 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


What happens if Trump realizes his outlandish antics no longer get him news time?

To put it mildly, I don't think that's likely.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:38 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Said of North Korea: "We should get China to fix that problem."

Oooooh well, then! Why had no one thought of this before?!

(Protip: China would looooove to not have Kim Jong-Un as an ally, and would also love to not have North Korean refugees entering China all the time. I'm sure they're all ears about your undoubtably brilliant plan, Donald.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:41 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


He hasn't said anything about her being sick yet has he? I find that weird.

Per Wonkette: Donald Trump Flirts With Appearance Of Decency In Reaction To Hillary Clinton’s Death Pneumonia:
Now here’s an actual man-bites-dogwhistle story! On Fox-n-Friends Monday, Donald Trump actually managed not to mock Hillary Clinton’s pneumonia, mostly. New York magazine’s Eric Levits described the phone interview as a “shocking display of human decency”:

“I just hope she gets well, and gets back on the trail, and we’ll be seeing her at the debate,” said Trump, which sounds like a bit of a change from weeks of “she doesn’t have the strength or stamina to take on ISIS, take their oil, bomb the shit out of them, and build a wall” crap he’s been playing off.

Of course, that was prefaced by the usual Trumpian suggestion that maybe the reality is far, far worse:
I see what I see. The coughing fit was a week ago, so I assume that was pneumonia also, I would think it would have been, so something’s going on.
posted by palindromic at 12:41 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/12/donald-trump-health-report-records-release

All I've seen is this article, which is a subdued response.
posted by nubs at 12:42 PM on September 12, 2016


I've gone a whole 16 hours without following the election or the election threads.

Justinian a whole lot of polls came out today yesterday and Hillary is now trending up in the 538 Polls Plus again.

posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:42 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary is now trending up in the 538 Polls Plus again.

Sez who?
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:46 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


I honest to God don't know why my class of mostly eighteen year olds aren't freaking out about this election. I imagine Year 15 of TrumpGod, and those once young ones would be like *oh that's why that weird teacher's eyes were protruding*

I was insanely political when I was that age. I guess I'm weird? My students are like, Trump's racist, but they don't really seem to care that much. And these aren't affluent white kids.

I mean it's great that most young ones recognize the Great Orange Peril as being as noxious as projectile vomiting on the subway, but why aren't they like *did you see how pink and chunky that vomit was and did you smell it and what is happening*

Maybe this is my limitation. It is, actually, I'm turning this comment around and sending it home. I am a white person and I grew up with children of college instructors in an affluent small town. We thought Reagan was the devil and we were going to die in a nuclear holocaust and fuck it's all so awful and big but we affluent white people CAN CHANGE THE SYSTEM MAN

My students come from a very different place. Chalk this up as one white person who suddenly is like *oh maybe I don't understand racism because I'm a fucking white person*
posted by angrycat at 12:46 PM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


ABC News:
• Trump was "shocked" and "alarmed" at Clinton's terrible, terrible basket-of-deplorables comments
• "She revealed herself to be a person who looks down on the proud citizens of our country as subjects for her rule. She views it as her rule."
• "If Hillary Clinton will not retract her comments in full, I don't see how she can credibly campaign any further."

So basically "basket of deplorables" is such a heinous thing to say, and shows such contempt for American voters, that Clinton should immediately cease running for President.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 12:48 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Get back in your happy place just for another 24 hours or so, Justinian. I'm sure by then Trump'll have offended...

...er, I can't think of any broadly sympathetic demographic that he hasn't already offended but anyway I am sure he will find some yet-undiscovered group to be gratuitously stupid at, any moment now....
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:49 PM on September 12, 2016


Sez who?

Some guy named "Thepols, Allofem"
posted by Twain Device at 12:49 PM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


"Subjects for her rule" (more projection)
"I'm the king of ____" (help)
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:49 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary's biggest problem is that she doesn't sell herself enough.

Probably because if you're a woman and you even mention your accomplishments people will smash you down like the wrath of god for being arrogant and stuck-up.
posted by winna at 12:50 PM on September 12, 2016 [57 favorites]


...er, I can't think of any broadly sympathetic demographic that he hasn't already offended

When does Trump running the attack ad on himself start?
posted by Francis at 12:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


My students are like, Trump's racist, but they don't really seem to care that much. And these aren't affluent white kids.

I had some uncle time this weekend driving my 15 year old nephew and some of his teammates home from football practice. I asked what they thought of Trump and and all four kids simultaneously said a version of "that guy is racist." No hesitation. I asked about Clinton and there were shrugs, one kid said she seemed nice.
posted by peeedro at 12:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


re: Br'er Rabbit. That extract posted above reminded me how glad I am that writing in dialect has gone out of favor. It's just annoying.
posted by maggiemaggie at 12:54 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I honest to God don't know why my class of mostly eighteen year olds aren't freaking out about this election.

When I taught at a regional school for affluent locals who were academically unimpressive, I found getting them to care about politics and ethics really really difficult. Except for the ones who were already activist oriented or believed Obama was, in fact, a Kenyan Candidate secret muslim, everyone else was just like "uh i dunno i guess that stuff matters, will this be on the final?"

If anything I think it's because Obama managed to not fuck anything up too bad, and at the same time was unable to push through any huge reforms. So they've gone through most of their cognizant lives with a political system in which people yell at each other a lot but nothing seems to happen. It's numbing.
posted by dis_integration at 12:55 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]




I like that Howard Dean, he tells it like it is.
posted by zutalors! at 12:57 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Wait, Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah has racist origins? My dad used to sing that all the time, and I find myself singing it myself occasionally. Guess I'll have to watch that. #theregoesmychildhood
posted by rabbitrabbit at 12:57 PM on September 12, 2016


dis_integration, the Affordable Care Act was a huge reform.
The Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act was a huge reform.
The repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell was a huge reform.
The first-ever LGBTQ-inclusive Violence Against Women Act re-authorization was a huge reform.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:58 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


Said of North Korea: "We should get China to fix that problem."

Oooooh well, then! Why had no one thought of this before?!

(Protip: China would looooove to not have Kim Jong-Un as an ally, and would also love to not have North Korean refugees entering China all the time. I'm sure they're all ears about your undoubtably brilliant plan, Donald.)


On the NK note, KIM Jong-eun has said nice things about TRUMP Donald John, the latter of whom recently said of another strongman:
If he says great things about me, I'm going to say great things about him.
I'm waiting to hear your compliments about Kim, you racist fuckwit. Somehow I don't expect they're forthcoming, given that he's not white and doesn't line your pockets, unlike Putin.
posted by qcubed at 1:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


I honest to God don't know why my class of mostly eighteen year olds aren't freaking out about this election.

A few of my Girl Scouts have (Mexican) immigrant parents and all of them have either grandparents or extended family who are immigrants, and those kids, all still nearly a decade away from voting age, mind you, are actively engaged (and freaking out). (But how could they not be? One of the candidates is targeting their families.) It simultaneously breaks my heart and fills me with hope for their generation.
posted by phunniemee at 1:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


Wait, Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah has racist origins?

When I was a kid (being a kid of bridged upper-middle class and lower-middle class families that hung out with extended family usually on the lower-middle class side) eeny, meeny, miny, moe was quite happily followed up with "catch a n----r by the toe".

In Perth, Western Australia. About as far as you can get from the United States and Dixie on this planet. None of us had a fucking clue what it was or what it meant. But hey, that's how it was said.

Now I look back on it and think "oh shit, what the fuck were we doing. We were so fucking ignorant".
posted by Talez at 1:03 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


ANECDATA: As you can probably guess, I'm pretty politically active on Facebook. But a lot of my friends are not overtly political on there. But the last few days people I've never seen make political posts have been posting things defending Clinton/mocking Trumpsters on the deplorables and health scare tactics. I hope the change means maybe a dam has broke.

Or maybe Facebook just changed their algorithm.
posted by chris24 at 1:03 PM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


DDale: 'This is a list of things Trump said in one interview on CNBC this morning.'
  • Called Sen. Elizabeth Warren "Pocahontas"
  • Claimed with no evidence that Fed Chair Janet Yellin is manipulating monetary policy to help Obama, said she "should be ashamed of herself"
  • Said the Fed, the FBI and the Department of Justice are "obviously" no longer independent
  • Alleged with no evidence that the presidential debates will be "rigged" and said there should be no moderator
  • Falsely claimed his schedule been busier than Clinton's" "There's not a contest"
  • Claimed with no evidence that Iranian sailors are making "crude gestures" at American soldiers
  • Claimed with no evidence that British people "call me Mr. Brexit"
  • Said, "I'm the king of illegal immigration. I will stop it"
  • Falsely claimed Clinton wants "open borders"
  • Said he would turn Air Force One around and fly home if top officials from a foreign country weren't at the airport to greet him
  • Said of North Korea: "We should get China to fix that problem"
  • Falsely claimed he is leading in the polls
  • Falsely claimed he has visited "numerous" black communities other than Philadelphia and Detroit
posted by kirkaracha at 1:03 PM on September 12, 2016 [28 favorites]


I'm waiting to hear your compliments about Kim, you racist fuckwit. Somehow I don't expect they're forthcoming, given that he's not white and doesn't line your pockets, unlike Putin.

Wellll.... he did get points for being a brutal dictator, but points deducted for not being white ("It's a cultural thing"!) and not having deep, New York real-estate interested pockets:
Trump, Jan. 9: If you look at North Korea – this guy, he’s like a maniac, OK? And you have to give him credit. How many young guys — he was like 26 or 25 when his father died — take over these tough generals, and all of a sudden — you know, it’s pretty amazing when you think of it. How does he do that? Even though it is a culture and it’s a cultural thing, he goes in, he takes over, and he’s the boss. It’s incredible. He wiped out the uncle. He wiped out this one, that one. I mean, this guy doesn’t play games. And we can’t play games with him. Because he really does have missiles. And he really does have nukes.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Obama ... was unable to push through any huge reforms.

I can see how it would look that way to 18 year olds (which is what you were talking about), but Obamacare was a huge reform.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 1:05 PM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


Is it confirmation bias at work, or are conservatives really a whole lot more into fake charities and lies about charitable giving?

There are two different strands here. A lot of it comes down to how 501(c)(3) status is pretty easily obtained and loosely defined, far more so than charitable status in the UK, and how charitable giving is handled as a donor deduction in the US, compared to Gift Aid in the UK where the tax-free distribution is administered by HM Treasury.

If you look at the Tampa Bay Times's "America's Worst Charities" investigation (and the CIR's companion site), you'll see the same areas show up again and again: veterans, cops, firefighters, sick children, cancer. There's definitely a continuum between the worst abusers of charitable status and the right-wing bulk mail rackets that Rick Perlstein describes in "The Long Con".

Then there's the NYC elite thing where charitable giving is extensive and legitimate but deeply tied to the social calendar and status-signalling. The price of admission to galas and openings and big events is a hefty pledge. Except Trump appears to be very good at reneging on those pledges, which pisses off the NYC actually-ultrarich, and when he does pledge and the Foundation delivers (with other people's money), the recipients are often either small organisations where TrumpFound is the main beneficiary, or orgs with questionable fundraising practices.
posted by holgate at 1:07 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


A few of my Girl Scouts have (Mexican) immigrant parents and all of them have either grandparents or extended parents who are immigrants, and those kids, all still nearly a decade away from voting age, mind you, are actively engaged (and freaking out). (But how could they not be? One of the candidates is targeting their families.) It simultaneously breaks my heart and fills me with hope for their generation.

Oh absolutely. Even a young kid can get fired up about politics pretty quickly when one of the candidates is saying in plain language that he'd like to send their mom away.

I was watching some election coverage in our house when this conversation happened.

"This Trump guy... he doesn't like immigrants?"
"No."
"And Mom's an immigrant?"
"Yep."
"That's... NOT NICE. I don't like that guy."

The hard part is watching him struggle and fail to find exactly the words to say how he feels. Because I can tell from the look on his face that the words he can't find are "FUCK THIS GUY." Even now that his mom is a citizen, it's not that hard for him to make the leap that it could have been her Trump was talking about.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:07 PM on September 12, 2016 [41 favorites]


Another week where I will write the NPR ombudsman a grumpy letter berating them for their double standards and terrible coverage.
posted by humanfont at 1:07 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


kirkaracha: Said, "I'm the king of illegal immigration. I will stop it"

Stop being the king if illegal immigration? Thanks, that should help!

Or do you mean the king of stopping illegal immigration?

And how does one become king of either thing/realm? Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:08 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


soren_lorenson

that's...
that's [fake], right?

it's gotta be.

even in context.

[sigh]
posted by qcubed at 1:08 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Said he would turn Air Force One around and fly home if top officials from a foreign country weren't at the airport to greet him

Pretty sure this one is true.
posted by Artw at 1:09 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


that's...
that's [fake], right?

it's gotta be.

even in context.


Nope, context makes it worse:
Trump, Jan. 9: If you look at North Korea – this guy, he’s like a maniac, OK? And you have to give him credit. How many young guys — he was like 26 or 25 when his father died — take over these tough generals, and all of a sudden — you know, it’s pretty amazing when you think of it. How does he do that? Even though it is a culture and it’s a cultural thing, he goes in, he takes over, and he’s the boss. It’s incredible. He wiped out the uncle. He wiped out this one, that one. I mean, this guy doesn’t play games. And we can’t play games with him. Because he really does have missiles. And he really does have nukes.
Yes, he's praising Kim Jong-Un for barbaric murders that were happening at the rate of one senior officer per week last year.

Yup, I'd call that psycho a real boss.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


RealClearPolitics: The Comprehensive Case Against Donald Trump -- Point by point refutation of the moderate conservative belief that Trump, despite his obvious flaws will be better for their issues than Hillary. Essentially why mainstream Republicans should hold their nose and vote for Hillary. Great for sharing with stuffy dads. By one of Romney/Bush IIs speechwriters.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:15 PM on September 12, 2016 [47 favorites]


Wait, Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah has racist origins? My dad used to sing that all the time, and I find myself singing it myself occasionally. Guess I'll have to watch that. #theregoesmychildhood
posted by rabbitrabbit at 3:57 PM on September 12


Eponysterical.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:15 PM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


> I can't think of any broadly sympathetic demographic that he hasn't already offended

He hasn't weighed in on the pipeline protest, has he?
posted by morganw at 1:16 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


My favorite response to the double standard of male vs female health issues vis a vis one's ability to be president was from a comment on a friend's facebook post. I quote:

"Remember when Trump deferred the draft because his foot hurt?"
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:18 PM on September 12, 2016 [50 favorites]


I was up in the North Carolina mountains last summer for a family reunion (fucking beautiful country out there, btw, and that's coming from a guy who really doesn't like to leave cities much) and saw bootleg copies of Song of the South being sold in the hotel gift shop. I took pictures and sent Disney an email; I have no idea if anything became of it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:19 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


> that's...
that's [fake], right?

it's gotta be.

even in context.

[sigh]

I know unreality has been a running theme of the last year or so but since early this morning I have been trying to think of things that could happen within the realm of possibility that will still be able to surprise me in this election cycle and I'm coming up way short.

I can't think of any. Not one. Like - Donald Trump preemptively declares war on China? Wouldn't be surprised. Hilary Clinton is attacked for donating too much money to charity? It's already happened. Donald Trump literally kicks a baby but still gets a pass because the baby gave DJT the stinkeye? Nobody likes babies anyway!

Probably it's a lack of imagination but, honestly, short of Jesus Christ coming down from the heavens and looking around like "oh man everyone, really?" there's not anything that could get more than a raised eyebrow and even then I'd be like "Yeah JayCee it's about time you showed," and then comment on one of these threads like "Oh, so NOW Jesus decides to show up."

Nothing is real any more.
posted by Tevin at 1:20 PM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


I have to think a guy who makes "Pocahontas" jokes isn't going to have good things to say about the pipeline protesters. He thinks the Washington Racial Slurs should keep their name.
posted by emjaybee at 1:20 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]






He hasn't weighed in on the pipeline protest, has he?

Not on the pipeline, but he has a lot of previous with Native Americans. He sued to stop tribal casinos in the early 90s opening in competition with his properties in Atlantic City, saying that "[o]rganized crime is rampant on Indian reservations", and a few years later bankrolled a dirty tricks campaign (run by Roger Stone, but with personal input from Trump) against one seeking to open in upstate NY.
posted by holgate at 1:25 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


I am very clear on how problematic "Song of the South" is as a text, yet I have never been able to shake my admiration for the story of the Tar-Baby because it's so true.

My whole life I have seen problems that only get worse the more people try to fight them, and I have yet to hear of a better name. (Suggestions welcome if they do not constitute a derail!)
posted by wenestvedt at 1:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


And if Trump is elected it will be just like Brexit - hate crimes and hate speech legitimated in the minds of our garbage citizens. I'm worried even if he loses, of course, but it will be worse if he wins.

I just really hate this world right now. Every time I think to myself "yes, this is an ugly country built on racism" something else even worse happens that shows that many white people actively yearn for the return of formalized, legally sanctioned racism and the minute that it looks like we could go back there, they're all in. This election has really changed how I think about people. It has moved me from thinking that in general, people are okay underneath to thinking that most people are mostly motivated by the desire to have someone they can hurt with impunity.
posted by Frowner at 1:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [31 favorites]


The New Yorker's afternoon cartoon is markedly better. At least it accurately reflects my state of mind.
posted by The Bellman at 1:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


The Remus stories are one (kinda complicated) thing. Song of the South sixty years later is another. Song of the South re-released forty years after that or Song of the South now is just...
posted by atoxyl at 1:32 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


I just read the Real Clear Politics argument against Trump.

I don't understand how 44% of this country this is scumbag reflects their values. He literally has no positive personality traits, and leaves a trail of slime and corruption wherever he goes.

I just don't understand how fully almost half of this country has lost their minds.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [20 favorites]


Oh, and Trump ended his speech today with "We will be one people, under one God."

So he's got the "ein Volk" down and I guess is going with "ein Gott" instead of "ein Reich" or "ein Republik," but we're still waiting for him to formally announce the "ein Fuhrer" part?

Honestly "Ein Volk, ein Gott, ein Fuhrer" seems even creepier to me than the original, so congratulations, dude, you've out-creepied the NSDAP.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:34 PM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


As I suspected in the last thread, some of Asheville's private parking lots have joined the campaign.
posted by holgate at 1:34 PM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


11 Private Security Firms Guarding Donald Trump

You know who else had his own private "security force"?
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


This election has really changed how I think about people. It has moved me from thinking that in general, people are okay underneath to thinking that most people are mostly motivated by the desire to have someone they can hurt with impunity.

My unpopular opinion that Anne Frank was completely wrong grows more popular by the day.
posted by chonus at 1:37 PM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


You know who else had his own private "security force"?

San Francisco International Airport!
posted by Talez at 1:37 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


As I suspected in the last thread, some of Asheville's private parking lots have joined the campaign.

Again, Asheville? Is he going to Portland next? Williamsburg? Silver Lake?
posted by leotrotsky at 1:38 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Regarding "Song of the South," let's all remember this little tidbit regarding James Baslett and his honorary Oscar, as shared on IMDB:
"He did not attend the premiere of "Song of the South" in Atlanta because as an African American he would not have been allowed to participate in any of the festivities in that racially segregated city."
So, yeah.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:40 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


wenestvedt, perhaps Mythical Man Month?
posted by Yowser at 1:42 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


You Think This Is A Goddamn Game?

by Hillary Clinton [fake]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:44 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


I don't understand how 44% of this country this is scumbag reflects their values. He literally has no positive personality traits, and leaves a trail of slime and corruption wherever he goes.

I have the same reaction; it is an absolute mystery to me how anyone can vote for this man, much less admire him. I can wrap my mind around why one would vote for Romney or McCain. Hell, I can even wrap my mind around why someone would vote for Ted Cruz. But Trump? No. He's a liar, he's corrupt, he's vulgar, he's stupid, he's inarticulate. But people do admire him. I guess, if nothing else, it serves as a good reminder that there are many people whose entire lives will just be utterly beyond my ken in every way. And vice versa, of course.
posted by holborne at 1:44 PM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


The Remus stories are one (kinda complicated) thing. Song of the South sixty years later is another.

I actually had an Ask I was going to post about this -- We were just at Disney World, and Splash Mountain is still based around the SOTS animal characters. And my 7-year-old wanted to know what the movie was about. And I explained that it was a movie that people don't watch anymore because when Disney made it, people didn't understand that some of what they thought was fun or funny really wasn't funny to a whole lot of people - and we talked a bit about slavery and racism. But I also told him the Briar Patch story. When I was growing up, we had a Disney collection of the stories that as I recall didn't have the framing device of Uncle Remus at all - it was just the animal stories. It was in "dialect," so I already know that's pretty problematic, but something you can get around if you read out loud and are careful about it. But are the actual animal stories racist? I thought they came from slave narratives, and only the framing (and the dialect) was the issue. Or was I just too young to catch it?
posted by Mchelly at 1:46 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


This election has really changed how I think about people. It has moved me from thinking that in general, people are okay underneath to thinking that most people are mostly motivated by the desire to have someone they can hurt with impunity.

My unpopular opinion that Anne Frank was completely wrong grows more popular by the day.


May I direct you both to the writings of Xunzi?

When I took my Chinese philosophy course lo those maaaany years ago, and read Xunzi, I was like, this guy gets me.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:48 PM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]






Jinx, r317!
posted by stolyarova at 1:50 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Just to complete the thought on Song of the South, the movie is based on a series of folk tales written by a white Southern dude based on his experiences being told the tales while growing up with slaves (though not owning them). On the one hand, these are real folks tales, and this is on of the few representations of lost (erased) African culture. On the other hand, they are presented in the worst possible context: rewritten by a slavery apologist to serve his own nostalgic gloop glop.

Really, The Song of the South, and Uncle Remus stories are a little more complicated than this thread it making it seem. Sticking to the movie, it is set after the civil war about a family that is essentially fleeing to a plantation due to the father's writing about strife in the post war era. The suggestion is that the "strife" is related to racial violence which the father is standing against and that the mother is opposed to his stance and wants to get away from that environment. (This is an echo of Joel Chandler Harris' career as a journalist who wrote about race relations during the post war era.) The father drops off his family at the plantation of the grandmother, I forget if its his mother or his wife's but I suspect the latter) and he then goes back to continue his work.

The movie then primarily follows his son Johnny who is upset about not being able to go with his father until he makes friends with Uncle Remus, and a young girl named Ginny, the daughter of white sharecroppers. Ginny's brothers make all sorts of trouble for Johnny and are suggested as racists as is their father, Ginny and her mother are somewhat trapped by this since they don't share that view but the brothers, and perhaps the father are abusive, so they have to keep their feelings to themselves, its suggested. In contrast to that relationship is the warm and caring one shown by Uncle Remus for Johnny, even though Johnny's mother does not approve of them spending time together. Uncle Remus relays the stories of B'rer Rabbit to Johnny in order to help him deal with his father's absence and Ginny's violent brothers.

During Johnny's birthday party, Johnny leaves to find Ginny and they end up in a scrape with her brothers ruining her party dress, causing Johnny to stay with Ginny rather than return to his party. Uncle Remus resolves the situation and eventually takes Johnny home. The mother blames Uncle Remus for the incident and forbids contact with Johnny causing Uncle Remus to leave the plantation for Atlanta. Johnny chases after him, is gored by a bull, and only recovers when Uncle Remus comes back.

The movie is clearly invested in making Uncle Remus the most sympathetic and significant character in the film, he isn't any more a caricature than any of the other characters. The problem though, and fitting for some of the other discussion topics in the thread, is that the tone of the movie and its politics come across as "liberal paternalism" where the plight of Ginny and the character of Uncle Remus are shown via an attitude of condescension. This is most clear in the relationship between Uncle Remus and the grandmother who was seemingly a slave owner before the war and now has replaced the slaves with sharecroppers and/or hired hands. Her attitude towards Uncle Remus is that of a rightful better, she respects Uncle Remus, but from a place that isn't as an equal, and that's the tone of the movie overall. It means well in a way, but its handling of race is stuck in a different time via Hollywood history of skirting meaningful dialogue on the issue even in most of its the best intended films. The movie also suggests a sort of mitigation of the impact of slavery by Uncle Remus and others relationship with the grandmother and attitudes towards their station.

The stories of Uncle Remus and the author of the books that related those stories have been charged with paternalism as well, even as they have also been acclaimed by some significant members of the black community. The folklore presented is believed to have come from slaves and is invaluable in its recounting since it would likely have been lost otherwise. The film like the books received both praise and condemnation at the time for some of the reasons listed above as well as simply for being too vague about the time and setting of the story, by leaving much of the information to implication rather than being stated explicitly inattentive viewers could mistake the film for being set during slavery rather than after it making the Uncle Remus character seem a slavery apologist. The vagueness is likely intentional as a way to not push too hard and lose sales in some communities so the criticism is more than fair in that regard.

In the context of today the film is unquestionably outdated in its attitudes, and thus understandably perceived as racist in a way, even though the intent was somewhere closer to the opposite. Thinking of the film in light of others of its time, it isn't entirely noteworthy for its implications, but it would have been comparatively welcome children's fare I would think given how little significant racial mixing was onscreen during that era. I can't say how people should judge the film today or if they should see it, since that question is too fraught with interfering complications to be answered meaningfully, but I'll say I didn't find it particularly offensive myself when compared to so many other things I've seen including things from recent years. YMMV.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [60 favorites]


Song of the South re-released forty years after that or Song of the South now is just...

Maybe this is a minority opinion, but I actually think Disney needs to re-release Song of the South. Not to theaters, but rather for home and institutional viewing. I think it should go hand in hand with an exhaustive third-party documentary commissioned by the studio to look back at the sources of the film, its production, and its legacy. I think they should take their lumps and allow ample space for commentators to explain in detail — under the Disney imprimatur — why and how the film is a document of racist attitudes, and how it perpetuated racist ideas. I think when you press Play you should be greeted with an unskippable video introduction in which a respected personage briefly explains the film's problematic nature. I imagine that it would be difficult for studio bosses, even at this late date, to approve anything that explicitly aligns the Disney brand with racist ideas, even unconscious ones. (Not Uncle Walt!) But still, if they could manage it, I think Song of the South in its proper context could be a powerful tool for learning and teaching. And there are some demons there that need to be exorcised.
posted by Mothlight at 1:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


Potomac Avenue: Donald Trump fans have been sending me racist, hateful messages for months. Here's a sampling

Direct link to Cleveland.com article
For 15 years, my ethnic last name has appeared above all of my stories. Which means, for 15 years, some readers have judged me only by that ethnic last name.

I have heard their voice mails and read their emails. Smirked at their keyboard courage in the comments section. Told myself not to take the Twitter mentions too personally.

Call it bigotry. Call it racism. Call it xenophobia. As a writer – especially one who covers national politics – you chalk it up as coming with the territory, as hurtful and as menacing as it can be. This year, though, it is coming far more frequently. There is no mystery why.
...
I realize I am far from the only person whose ethnicity or race has become a focal point for a few critics. I don't want to trivialize the reprehensible prejudice many other minorities endure.

It strikes me, though, that Trump, whether he means to or not, has fostered a hostile moment in our politics when his supporters feel entitled to racially denigrate others.

Sadly, simply being a Gomez is enough to make you a target.

I was born, 35 years ago this week, in Youngstown, Ohio. My mother was born in Youngstown. My father was born in Youngstown. You have to go back four generations – to great-grandparents on both sides of my family – to find relatives born in another country.
I won't include the racial slurs, because you don't really need to see more to know where this goes.

I mostly wanted to quote from it to pull in the phrase "keyboard courage."
posted by filthy light thief at 1:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [45 favorites]


The actual stories are mostly allegories about how the enslaved could use soft power and trickery to eke out survival. Similar to Aesop's fables, they use animal characters to conceal their true intent from the powerful.

Also, James Baskett is *excellent* in Song of the South and it's really a pity that the talented African American performers in it are showcased in the way they are.
posted by chrchr at 1:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Come on H, give me something about "paid sick leave" in a tweet and I'll re-tweet it 100 times. (Or once very very loudly.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:54 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


You know who else had his own private "security force"?

Yukio Mishima?
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 1:54 PM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


Like anyone who’s ever been home sick from work, I’m just anxious to get back out there. See you on the trail soon. -H

More signs that she isn't connected to the common people. The common people would be anxious that they couldn't finish marathoning whatever show they were watching before returning to work!
posted by charred husk at 1:55 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


holborne A largeish percentage of Trump voters aren't actually for Trump so much as they're against Clinton. To them Trump's downsides are possibly mitagatable, and anyway he'll rubber stamp just about anything the Republican Congress sends his way.

They're looking at getting enough Supreme Court picks over the next four years to assure 30 more years of Republican dominance on the court, the entire Republican wish list of legislation passed, and the opportunity to really thumb their noses at the Democrats.

If, in exchange for that, they also have to take Trump a lot of them see that as a tolerable deal.

Don't forget that the Republicans have been exchanging support of bigots and racists for their economic and social policies since 1968. That Trump is a bit louder and more obnoxious than most is, at worst, a touch embarrassing. But he's nothing new, nothing game changing.

That why there will never be an even this moment. He's running as a Republican that automatically gets him the support, however unenthusiastic, of close to 50% of the country.

Now the True Believers, they're another story, they mostly love his bombast, his racism, his sexism, his xenophobia, his homophobia, his misogyny, and all the other huge panoply of hate he's been making more and more acceptable. But to be a Republican and vote for Trump doesn't require you be a true believer, it just requires you be willing to sacrifice women, minorities, gay people, etc to get a tax cut. And Republicans have been willing to do that since 1968 if not before.
posted by sotonohito at 1:56 PM on September 12, 2016 [27 favorites]


You have to think Hillary will be doing nothing on the day of the Gilmore Girls release.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:56 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


For everyone who is discussing Song of the South

chrchr posted one of the best articles I have ever read about this movie up above. It discusses a lot of what is also being discussed here in the (fast moving, I know) comments, including the way the ride exists in concert with and yet separate from the movie, and a suggestion that Disney should licence the film to Criterion for a critical release.
posted by anastasiav at 1:58 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


The common people would be anxious that they couldn't finish marathoning whatever show they were watching before returning to work!

Her next speech is about increasing funding for missing persons investigations, taking guns away from Child Protective Services staff, and slug filters for our water supply.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:59 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sadly, simply being a Gomez is enough to make you a target.

But oh, how I'd love to see Trump or his supporters try to pick on Gomez Addams...
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:59 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


You Think This Is A Goddamn Game?

by Hillary Clinton [fake]


So we had Obama's Anger Translator, and while I would also enjoy Hillary's own anger translator, I also want to see her Spirit of Excitement. As she mentioned in her second part of Humans in New York:
I’ve learned that I can’t be quite so passionate in my presentation. I love to wave my arms, but apparently that’s a little bit scary to people. And I can’t yell too much. It comes across as ‘too loud’ or ‘too shrill’ or ‘too this’ or ‘too that.’ Which is funny, because I’m always convinced that the people in the front row are loving it.
(quoted in the prior thread by holgate)

I'd love to see her let go and have fun, but I recognize that she can't, for fear of her own Howard Dean Scream (oral history of the Dean Scream from Esquire - it's a good piece IMO). Once she's elected, she can let go a bit, right?
posted by filthy light thief at 2:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


The inside story of Clinton’s sick day:
Hillary Clinton never lost consciousness, and never stopped talking on her phone — and never put anyone else in danger — after her near swoon at a Sept. 11 memorial on Sunday in New York, according to accounts offered by several people close to the candidate.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]




There was indeed a sketch with Hillary's anger translator, btw. (Do I need to tell you it's NSFW?)
posted by phearlez at 2:03 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


kirkaracha: The inside story of Clinton’s sick day

First I'm sad because there has to be such a detailed report about how Clinton handled her pneumonia, including being around her grandkids only when her doctors told her she wasn't contagious, and secondly I sad because there's a lack of Ferris Bueller's Day Off wacky hijinks and personal realizations.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


nubs: What's deplorable is the media's treatment of Clinton

Too wordy. This is one of the times when a numbered list would have sufficed.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:07 PM on September 12, 2016


I reread ZZ Packer's short story "Brownies"** in prep for a class and I was in fucking tears in fucking DDonuts

*A totally fucking rocking story that examines racism from a child's perspective and is so well done on so many levels that it tears your heart out and you look at your heart lying on the floor and you think *fuckin' damn.*
posted by angrycat at 2:08 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


But "What's deplorable is the media's treatment of Clinton" does have some good lines:
Trump is a witless man forever at wit’s end. Yet it is Clinton who is judged for her “lack of transparency,” “aloofness” and “cold demeanour.” It would be hilarious if it weren’t so appalling: In less than 60 days, the U.S. nuclear codes could be handed to a man who is so unhinged that, on balance, most Americans wouldn’t trust him with the passwords to their email for fear over what he might type.

Now that is a basket of deplorable.
And as much as I hate the Clinton email non-scandal, I would love to see that poll: "Who would you trust more with your email password, Hillary or Donald?"
posted by filthy light thief at 2:10 PM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


Live stream from Asheville. Still almost an hour til the event starts, but I'm v pleased at all the empty spaces.
posted by witchen at 2:11 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


So they've gone through most of their cognizant lives with a political system in which people yell at each other a lot but nothing seems to happen. It's numbing.

I think part of this comes from a lack of knowledge and depth of experience that it takes to see how high level decisions and rhetoric connect to the actual issues on the ground in their communities.

I would venture a guess that the connections are more direct for most minorities so people can see those connections from a younger age and that there more issues that impact minorities so they're born with more skin in the game. No pun intended.
posted by VTX at 2:11 PM on September 12, 2016


angrycat: I reread ZZ Packer's short story "Brownies"** in prep for a class and I was in fucking tears in fucking DDonuts

For your reading enjoyment or otherwise, Brownies (31 page PDF, scanned book, from Crystal Shelnutt's webpage, for the Department of English at University of West Georgia, Spring 2014).
posted by filthy light thief at 2:13 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


Again, Asheville? Is he going to Portland next? Williamsburg? Silver Lake?

He previously had August 31st set for a rally and fundraiser in Portland, but was canceled to due to schedule conflicts.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 2:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


The inside story of Clinton’s sick day:

Looool that is the most blatantly partisan story I've ever read. I'm on her side and I could feel the sheen of press release through the internet tubes. I don't care of course and I hope "HILLARY ON PHONE WHILE FAINTING" is crawling across the screen on CNN as of right now.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


While looking for a comment on the pipeline protest, I found this:
Continental Resources CEO Harold Hamm, energy adviser to Donald Trump's presidential campaign and potential U.S. Secretary of Energy under a Trump presidency—has announced to investors that oil it obtains via fracking from North Dakota's Bakken Shale basin is destined for transport through the hotly-contested Dakota Access Pipeline.
so ought to be for the pipeline, but the interesting thing will be how offensive he can be mentioning it & how that'll go over. He can't be a fan of Native Americans due to [from the excellent n+1 article The Last Last Summer linked by box in the last thread]
the legalization of Indian tribal and nontribal casinos in Connecticut in the 1990s and in Pennsylvania in the 2000s; after the legalization of tribal casinos in upstate New York in the ’90s and of nontribal casinos in the 2010s
having a disastrous effect on AC casinos.
posted by morganw at 2:16 PM on September 12, 2016


Yep, already in his history "Donald Trump claimed that Indian reservations had fallen under mob control. He secretly paid for more than $1 million in ads that portrayed members of a tribe in Upstate New York as cocaine traffickers and career criminals."
posted by morganw at 2:17 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Josh Marshall: Wise Up, Folks:
For those still living in the fantasy world where people believe that Donald Trump, a man a man driven by an instinctive belief in control and domination, is a dove or a foreign policy Realist, here's a wake-up call. Trump has chosen James Woolsey as his new foreign policy advisor.

If you're not familiar with him, Woolsey is not only the wildest and most unbridled of neoconservative hawks but one who combines his hawkishness with the most fevered conspiracy theories. Lots of people made up stories about Saddam Hussein having advanced nuclear and biological weapons programs. Woolsey was one of the few, even in the hardest core neoconservative circles, to back a conspiracy theory that held that Saddam was responsible not only for 9/11 but for the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993 too. He was also a big backer of a completely inane fever swamp idea that all global terrorism is run by a so called "five families of terrorism.' Yes, the Five Families of Terrorism. Look it up. Also look up Laurie Mylroie.
posted by palindromic at 2:21 PM on September 12, 2016 [24 favorites]


[A note on the scanned copy of "Brownies" - the PDF is 9+ mb, to warn you if you're downloading it via a cell phone data connection]
posted by filthy light thief at 2:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


This election has really changed how I think about people. It has moved me from thinking that in general, people are okay underneath to thinking that most people are mostly motivated by the desire to have someone they can hurt with impunity

Every time we have an election, I think of this quote from the movie Chaplin:

Douglas Fairbanks: Charles, you're a foreigner; you're still an outsider. You've never understood this country.
Charlie Chaplin: It's a good country underneath, Doug.
Douglas Fairbanks: No, it's a good country on *top*. Underneath, that's what starts showing when we're scared.
posted by PlusDistance at 2:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [50 favorites]


My interpretation was that it would be like me (in a pretty privileged job) feeling ill in the middle of the day and leaving early...to work from home for the afternoon.

She "went home sick" but never really stopped working. And with fucking pneumonia!

If that were me, a 35 year old male who is pretty healthy (according to a recent physical) I would have been in bed for at least the whole day and certainly the next few days after. This all assumes that I had been engaging in my usually, not terribly demanding job and not running for POTUS.
posted by VTX at 2:25 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Mike Pence won't call David Duke one of the deplorables on CNN.
posted by Talez at 2:26 PM on September 12, 2016 [32 favorites]


completely inane fever swamp idea that all global terrorism is run by a so called "five families of terrorism.' Yes, the Five Families of Terrorism. Look it up.

I tried. Gambino, Genovese, Bonanno, Lucchese, and Colombo? My Google-Fu is failing me here.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:26 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Looool that is the most blatantly partisan story I've ever read. I'm on her side and I could feel the sheen of press release through the internet tubes. I don't care of course and I hope "HILLARY ON PHONE WHILE FAINTING" is crawling across the screen on CNN as of right now.

Wait until the real truth comes out. In one day away from the campaign, Clinton:
  • Borrowed a vintage Ferrari
  • Visited the Metropolitan Museum of Art
  • Went to the observation deck Empire State Building
  • Visited the New York Stock Exchange
  • Watched some baseball
  • Participated in a parade
  • Snuck into a posh restaurant pretending to be Babe Froman, "Sausage Queen of NY," while narrowly avoiding her husband who was dining at the same restaurant
[fake]
posted by peeedro at 2:27 PM on September 12, 2016 [51 favorites]


I'm v pleased at all the empty spaces.

And the crappy stage/podium configuration. The roller derby has a better setup.
posted by holgate at 2:27 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


And is a better show, because despite all the bashing of opponents during the event, everyone shakes hands at the end and probably ends up chatting over beers.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:31 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Presidential Health is a Historically Tricky Topic.


There's Taylor, there's Tyler, there's Fillmore and there's Hayes,
There's William Henry Harrison-
I died in thirty days!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:32 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


Talez: Mike Pence won't call David Duke one of the deplorables on CNN.

I wonder what cabinet position Donny has picked for David. Or maybe he's just an advisor for the transition?
posted by filthy light thief at 2:32 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary could give "Ebola Doctor" Dr. Craig Spencer a run for his money.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:34 PM on September 12, 2016


Just got an invite to a rally with Tim Kaine in Ann Arbor tomorrow, so I'm hoping there will be fun field reports to share.
posted by palindromic at 2:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Pence, when asked about Trump's health: "I'll just refer you to the Trump campaign."

He really is running a weird parallel operation.
posted by holgate at 2:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [31 favorites]


Another week where I will write the NPR ombudsman a grumpy letter berating them for their double standards and terrible coverage.

And he or she nods in satisfaction that you're still a listener. (Not throwing sones -- much as they suck, I listen too.)
posted by Gelatin at 2:37 PM on September 12, 2016


I wonder what cabinet position Donny has picked for David.

White House Senior Advisor
posted by chonus at 2:38 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


Is Justinian okay?
Wondering about the JPL
Because the (much less astute) AngrycatPL is well you know how Kate McKinnon does her cat's anguished howls when he's bathed it's like that
posted by angrycat at 2:42 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Gah! I am so feelin' it for Hillary today. I'm miserable. I do not have anything bacterial. My throat is killing me and I am prepping for a presentation I need to make at 10 am tomorrow. I would very much like to go home, but I've been scheduled for 3 months to present this data at this meeting, and if I don't do it tomorrow, my next chance might be November. It sucks being sick in the thick of things. I'm washing hands, drinking fluids and trying to get through tomorrow. Good luck, Hill. I'm feeling your pain.
posted by Sophie1 at 2:44 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Here's the video of Pence avoiding associating Duke with "Deplorable".

Seems less to me that he's avoiding decrying DD and more that he doesn't actually know what Deplorable means.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:49 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]




Perhaps now I shall call her Clinton, the Plague Bringer, Third Horseman of the Apocalypse, Slayer of Hairpieces.

Chemtraillary...
posted by y2karl at 2:54 PM on September 12, 2016


Pence isn't going to thread that needle. Rank and file Trump supporters now want to self-identify as "deplorables" whether or not they personally meet the bigotry threshold, and the campaign is going to try and encourage that, but doing so means having to punt on identifying people like Duke as deplorable, not least because it would alienate the deplorables. I think that's why the Clinton campaign chose a ten-dollar word.

Credit, I suppose, to Wolf Blitzer for asking the question. Minimum threshold, really.
posted by holgate at 2:55 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


are we sure "basket of deplorables" isn't some Bene Gesserit command phrase
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [46 favorites]


If Clinton Beats Trump 60-40%, The DCCC Would Still Fail To Take Back The House

Good thing it's going to be 77 - 23, then.
posted by mikelieman at 3:01 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Here's the video of Pence avoiding associating Duke with "Deplorable".

"You called him deplorable -- you would call him deplorable..."
"No, I’m not in the name-calling business, Wolf."

This exchange had better get some serious air time. I mean, holy shit. It should not be an agonizing choice for a vice presidential candidate to flatly and vociferously rebuke a former Imperial Wizard of the Goddamn KKK. It's a no-brainer, one-word response: "YES." But The Trump-Pence campaign has gotten itself backed into a corner.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 3:12 PM on September 12, 2016 [57 favorites]


are we sure "basket of deplorables" isn't some Bene Gesserit command phrase

Clinton no longer needs the Weirding Module.
posted by Enemy of Joy at 3:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


It'll get as much air time as Trump's own waffling whenever asked to badmouth the KKK.
posted by Artw at 3:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Good thing it's going to be 77 - 23, then.

That would be awesome, but incredibly unlikely. Would require massive movement in the polls in the next 2 months. She's ahead by something like 3-4 points on average right now, AFAICT.
posted by thefoxgod at 3:16 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


"No, I’m not in the name-calling business, Wolf."

He was damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

The best he could have done is admit Hillary was right about David Duke, but not all of the rest of their millions of patriotic supporters who know that Donald Trump has their best interests at heart and will fight blah blah blah.
posted by zarq at 3:17 PM on September 12, 2016


'Do we rebuke the KKK? Well, yes - and no. Do we need the votes of white supremacists? Yes. Do we disagree with what they're saying? No.'

[fake]
posted by palindromic at 3:18 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


"This Trump guy... he doesn't like immigrants?"
"No."
"And Mom's an immigrant?"
"Yep."
"That's... NOT NICE. I don't like that guy."


Trump's own mom was an immigrant. But that is okay: he doesn't like himself very much either.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:19 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]




Oh, now I get what's going on at the Civic Center: they're staging it on the long side (think half way in a b-ball court) rather than the end, to fill out the sides for a better shot. Except the wide shot in the live stream shows lots of gaps and empty seats. Doubt they even needed the overflow.

Anyway, the arsehole's up, and a protestor just got ejected.
posted by holgate at 3:24 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]




RCP has taken her from a solid 272 EV to a solid 209 in just the last few weeks. I don't really like the volatility.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:26 PM on September 12, 2016


Article from GQ, Inside the mind of the undecided voter. Third person down is an anonymous political reporter with a whole lotta privilege,
I cover this stuff every day. So for me, four years of Trump, selfishly, sounds a lot more enticing, just because it's going to be a dumpster fire.
posted by erisfree at 3:27 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


I cover this stuff every day. So for me, four years of Trump, selfishly, sounds a lot more enticing, just because it's going to be a dumpster fire.

The same asshole who is bragging about his front row seat to the apocalypse will also be the loudest voice screaming about the all new Trump™ Concentration Camps for Journalists in 2018.
posted by zarq at 3:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [28 favorites]


Got to admit, my first reaction upon hearing that Clinton had pneumonia was pure bowel loosening terror. This is how the evil alternate timeline starts... when something bad happens to the sure-thing "normal" candidate and the only alternative is an orange nightmare.

Please get better, Ms. Clinton! Rest or do whatever you need.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


The protestor didn't just get ejected - he apparently got choked and punched, too:

@alivitali

A Trump supporter just grabbed a protester by the neck then punched him. Protester escorted out, man stayed.

posted by stolyarova at 3:34 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


RCP has taken her from a solid 272 EV to a solid 209 in just the last few weeks.

RCP has a really high toss-up threshold: it classes PA (C+6.2) as a toss-up, while CO (C+9.7) and MN (C+13) are "lean Clinton".
posted by holgate at 3:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Deplorable!
posted by zachlipton at 3:37 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


it is an absolute mystery to me how anyone can vote for this man, much less admire him.

Oh man. It's - it's hard, but not impossible.

First, you have to understand that it sucks to be a minority in this country. Whether racial, religious, or ethnic, for two hundred years, it has always sucked to be a minority in this country. People don't have to go looking for examples of how much it sucks to be a minority - it has always been abundantly clear.

Second, that for most of this country's history, the white and white-assimilated majority hasn't just had a narrow majority, they've had a comfortable majority. They have never had to worry that the white assimilated culture wouldn't be prioritized and respected. They've never had to worry that what they said about others would get them fired. They've never had to worry that their kids would be taught gross stuff they didn't believe in in school. They've never had to worry about being automatically excluded from the elite. They always had at least a chance of making good. They've always known that who and what they were would be able to continue forever.

Third, that is gone. That is objectively gone. White people are no longer enough of a majority that a mild majority among white people will swing an election. If 70% of white people all agree on a president - even though Trump's not that guy - they cannot elect him if everyone else votes against them. They cannot guarantee control of government, which means they cannot guarantee the continuation of their culture. And they're already seeing it disappear - in schoolbooks, in laws, in court challenges to things that were normal to them.

This is not, exactly at this point, racism. Wanting your culture to have primacy is a ridiculously common thing. City-bred Dems - folks everyone would think of as good and correct - want to propagate their culture, at the expense of the cultures that they think are wrong. Wanting your culture to continue is not, in itself, racism. And it should be said at this point that these people are very welcoming to white-assimilated people. It's about the culture, not the race. My family, for example, is pretty white-assimilated, though I have complex cultural feels about that. I'm in my thirties, but I can't put on hoop earrings without hearing my father thundering in my ear that Good American Girls Don't Do That. My family has voted Republican since they came. My father goes to Trump rallies and apparently gets no shit.

The part that gets complex is: when you realize that you are a minority, what do you do with your culture? When you realize your culture is slowly being squeezed out, what do you do? Do you fight to maintain pockets of it? Do you fight to make it the national culture? What do you do, short of give up and die?

It's important at this point to note that white people are not oppressed, and probably never will be. But white trad-American culture as it has been is in the process of becoming a dead thing - as other minorities feared, sometimes rightly, that assimilation would do to theirs.

The shoe is on the other foot now, and I think it's unreasonable to expect these people to go quietly into the good night. I think we have to - for our own survival - offer some hope to these people, or they're going to find worse than voting for Trump, which is already bad enough. People in these pockets have been swearing by "The American Way Of Life" for a long time. It's baked deep. If we don't help them, it gets bad. Really bad. The resurgence-of-KKK-during-the-20s bad.

Is it "fair" that the people who have been on top for so long are the ones who need help now? No. But at this point, I care less about what's fair, and more about stopping this country from being torn apart by a new ethnic minority with a deep and burning resentment.
posted by corb at 3:40 PM on September 12, 2016 [86 favorites]


Perfectly willing to call names when asked about Mexicans, blacks, Jews, women and even Jeb Bush, but when asked to condemn a former grand wizard of the KKK Trump and Pence are suddenly not in the name calling business?
posted by humanfont at 3:45 PM on September 12, 2016 [44 favorites]


tl;dr: Wahhhh! Morning in America wouldn't be a 100% white ad anymore!
posted by Talez at 3:45 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Merch update!

Got my stuff today, a good month and change after ordering. My yard sign is up but... Is it just me or are the legs really short? I might have to construct my own stand for it.

I offered husband one of the two "love trumps hate" buttons and his negatory response had just enough of a sneer to it that I think he can get his own Netflix snacks this week. He scores as woke on many axes but every now and then a little "it's so cute that your lady brain thinks any if this matters" peeks though.
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:46 PM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


The shoe is on the other foot now, and I think it's unreasonable to expect these people to go quietly into the good night. I think we have to - for our own survival - offer some hope to these people,...

How is universal healthcare, fair wages for women, less fear of automatic weapons, and ending citizens united not enough of a start?
posted by OHenryPacey at 3:47 PM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


I got some merch today as week, ordered during the Dem Convention.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:47 PM on September 12, 2016


How is universal healthcare, fair wages for women, less fear of automatic weapons, and ending citizens united not enough of a start?

Because "those people" benefit from them too.
posted by qcubed at 3:49 PM on September 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


I got my GIRLS JUST WANNA HAVE FUN-DAMENTAL RIGHTS tote this weekend! Ordered just after the DNC ended.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 3:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


If I were to order a Clinton/Kaine yard sign today, how long would it take before it arrives?
posted by jazon at 3:51 PM on September 12, 2016


How is universal healthcare, fair wages for women, less fear of automatic weapons, and ending citizens united not enough of a start?

I have a rock that keeps tigers away. Sure it's just a stupid rock but I don't see any tigers!

All of this started when us bleeding heart liberals forced America to modernize in the '90s. It all started with Will & Grace and now two men walk down the sidewalk holding hands, kissing each other without the shit being beaten out of them and the straight white male can't get a job that pays more than $9/hour for unskilled work!

If women were in the home, queers were in the closet, blacks were still an underclass white white male hegemony was utterly dominant and went unchecked instead of cracking at the seams these "oppressed" white males would be seen as valued providers able to lead their families. Or so they think. But that horse has long bolted. Trying to stuff immigrants back into Mexico is only going to break things further.
posted by Talez at 3:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm still amused that Hillary's so-called apology for the "deplorables" statement was "I regret saying 'half'-- that was wrong."

Because I get to imagine that she means the correct number is much higher.
posted by zennie at 3:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [50 favorites]


The shoe is on the other foot now, and I think it's unreasonable to expect these people to go quietly into the good night. I think we have to - for our own survival - offer some hope to these people, or they're going to find worse than voting for Trump, which is already bad enough. People in these pockets have been swearing by "The American Way Of Life" for a long time. It's baked deep. If we don't help them, it gets bad. Really bad. The resurgence-of-KKK-during-the-20s bad.

But here's the problem. When we offer hope, in the form of help that would be especially useful to many disaffected white voters, in the form of, say, better health insurance options, a non-trivial number panic and treat it as a communist plot. Same with the reactions to paid family leave, making college more affordable, etc...

In short, it's unclear what kind of "hope" is acceptable that doesn't directly involve a return to the 1950s. Because you're telling me that we have to, whether fairly or not, give people hope or they'll do horrible unspeakable things, yet every credible proposal to make the lives of middle class voters better (drowning the government in a teacup doesn't count as a credible proposal) is dismissed out of hand, so I don't really know where to go with that.
posted by zachlipton at 3:54 PM on September 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


(Sorry. I should stay out of an American politics thread, but it's hard to stop with just one post.)

The big problem is that "these people" (impoverished and poor white conservatives) have been sold a line of shit for so long that they don't even know what would help anymore. Republicans take their beliefs, repackage them to be more business friendly, then sell the package back to them as dogma. Single payer health care would do a lot more to help poor people in West Virginia than loosening gun laws, but try getting them to believe it.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:57 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


The Pence thing blowing up over not being willing to call David Duke deplorable is why the word was so perfect.
posted by chris24 at 3:58 PM on September 12, 2016 [34 favorites]


Here is the video of the protestors being assaulted.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:06 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


'Basket of deplorables' visual aid.
posted by homunculus at 4:09 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


First, corb that is an excellent comment and I'm really glad you made it. Thank you.

This is not, exactly at this point, racism. Wanting your culture to have primacy is a ridiculously common thing. City-bred Dems - folks everyone would think of as good and correct - want to propagate their culture, at the expense of the cultures that they think are wrong. Wanting your culture to continue is not, in itself, racism.

This is the only bit I disagree with. White culture in this country created and maintained its supremacy for centuries through discriminatory, institutionalized racism. You're of course right that it's not racist to want your culture to survive. But after slaughtering legions of non-whites in order to establish colonial settlements, WASP's have quite literally stacked the deck against everyone else in the US since it was founded. We talk a lot about White privilege in these election threads. Personally, I don't think we should be sugar-coating any aspect of how it was achieved or preserved.
posted by zarq at 4:10 PM on September 12, 2016 [34 favorites]


I think Clinton's "gaffe" bomb just blew up in Pence's face.
posted by chris24 at 4:10 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


I'm gonna be so glad when this election campaign is over and I can stop being confused at mentions of RCP's poll numbers. My head keeps going "surely the Revolutionary Communist Party isn't ... *oh*, right, Real Clear Politics".
posted by spaceman_spiff at 4:11 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Another quote from Jay Smooth's new video is
Empathy does not preclude accountability.
During this election, the commentariat have written oh so many pieces about just who are these Trump supporters, and why they are 'nice' people, and how is it that such 'nice' people could vote to elect the Pope of the Church of Assholes to the Presidency. It's almost as if loving one's children, having some friends, and being reasonably polite to strangers is the benchmark for being a moral person. However, I know people who do all of those things, without actively trying to undermine my human rights.

I'm a bit numb to the requests for empathy for the Trump crowd, when so very few have made any efforts towards accountability. Clinton's opponent is a symptom of a problem with Republican leadership and voter base--specifically, the leadership's promotion of an extant tolerance of hateful, dehumanizing attitudes towards those who are different to the base in order to actualize flawed fiscal policies.

Bottom line is that, I'm empathetic in this case to an extent. I am trying, but at a certain point, I need some recognition from such voters that their movement is really harming people and concrete behavioral changes before my empathy is going to increase much more. I am also furious at Trumpists. Emotions are hard.

corb: People in these pockets have been swearing by "The American Way Of Life" for a long time. It's baked deep. If we don't help them, it gets bad. Really bad. The resurgence-of-KKK-during-the-20s bad.

I'm scared of this too. I feel like a group of very angry people with huge amounts of firepower are holding us hostage. I feel substantially less safe than 12 months ago, so it's hard to feel empathy when some people are doing and saying such frightening things. I hope we can work this out with the least harm possible.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 4:18 PM on September 12, 2016 [35 favorites]


I am hoping to see a lot of Ds who don't happen to be in bed with pneumonia this week commenting on how racism, sexism, open violence at political events, etc. IS deplorable, and so are the Trump enthusiasts who are members of neo Nazis and other right wing hate groups, and so is the campaign that refuses to repudiate them.

In addition, I think we need to see a whole bunch of people complaining loudly and consistently about how the media is willing to demonize Clinton for daring to get a fairly benign diagnosis without running out to tell us all for a couple of days as dishonest, but absolutely failing to require disclosure from Trump of any tax records, any health records, and any business records in the many instances he has been accused of fraud. Not to mention failing to call him out for repeated 4 Pinocchio whoppers on the campaign trail. Not to mention equating a pretty minor lapse of judgment -- encouraged strongly by a prior Secretary -- regarding email management with a deep, long history of scamming people.

As long as they are complaining about Clinton and her secretiveness, how about also failing to call out Trump for not only not holding pressers, but banning news organizations from covering his events?

Really tired of the double standard here. And Krugman and the Washington Post are right, it is damaging.
posted by bearwife at 4:19 PM on September 12, 2016 [35 favorites]


For those of you looking for yard signs: I was just at my local campaign headquarters, and they had a pile of Clinton/Kaine signs (plus down ticket signs, too!), so check there if you're concerned about delivery times. Also, buttons, shirts, and hats, but a much more limited selection than the online store.
posted by miguelcervantes at 4:20 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think it's important to differentiate between cultural hope and pure economic hope. Even if every single Dem economic policy objectively helped this class of people, it wouldn't address the issue of their way of life dying, and what to do about it.

I wish I had the answers. I don't. Zarq is right that a lot of that way of life came about as a result of racism, even if the desire for its continuance isn't specifically racist, and I plain don't know how to find a way to create a more-egalitarian "trad-American way-of-life". I have ideas, but I'm really just spitballing. Part of it is because it's a culture that's not exactly mine - I just wear its skin sometimes - and part of it is because it's a problem that's really fucking hard.

But I think we have a lot of smart people - both here on Metafilter, and broadly in the country - who might be able to find a solution to the problem if they looked at it from that angle. Not "how to put money in the pocket" but "how can white trad-American culture survive, but without the shitty racism that founded it?"
posted by corb at 4:20 PM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


Wait, so the reason that Pence won't call David Duke deplorable is that the Trump campaign doesn't want to resort to name-calling???? Is that a special rule about how they treat white supremacists, because I don't remember them having any compunction about calling anyone else names.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [50 favorites]


I think the only problem with that is that it's impossible to separate traditional white American culture from the racism that founded it. It's like abolishing the two-party system; that's baked right into the Constitution, racism is baked right into what can be called traditional white American culture.
posted by palomar at 4:25 PM on September 12, 2016 [23 favorites]


Fahrenthold at the WaPo has a public twitter request to locate two items Trump bought at charity auctions -- a six-foot painting of himself by artist Michael Israel and a football helmet signed by Tim Tebow. The painting went for $20,000 and the helmet for $12,000. In both cases Trump made a show of his charitable donations at the auctions, but the money never came out of Trump's pocket. It came out of the Trump Foundation which Trump hasn't put a dime in since 2008. His charitable contribution, despite all the show for the auction guests, instead came out of the pocket of other donors to the Trump Foundation. He donated nothing.

Now, Fahrenthold is interested in finding the location of these items because they would be evidence of yet more illegal activity by the Trump Foundation.

First off, it is illegal to use your private foundation to purchase items for yourself. This is called self-dealing. The IRS watches this closely because a typical tax scam is to put money into your private foundation tax-free and then to spend it on your own consumption. This is an illegal way to buy stuff with tax-free income.

The only way this would be legal is if Trump purchased the auction items with tax-free charity money and then donated the items to another tax-free charity. But if Trump has put the items on display, say, at one of his hotels or golf courses, then that would not be a charity and the original purchase by the Trump Foundation would be illegal self-dealing. That is why Fahrenthold is asking the public to find the items for him.

But secondly, even if Trump properly donated the items he bought at auction to another charity, he still wouldn't be off the hook. That is because you can only deduct the portion of a payment to a charity auction that is greater than the fair market value of the item. For example if you bid on a $30,000 car and win with a $40,000 bid, you can't deduct the full $40,000 as a charity donation. What you have done is simply purchased a $30,000 car and donated $10,000 more to the charity. Only $10,000 is tax deductible.

Normally you would document this on your IRS Schedule A, taking only correct portion as a deduction. But instead, in each case, Trump paid for the entire auction amount out of the Trump Foundation. The foundation records indicate he is counting 100% of the auction bid as a tax-free donation. That again is tax fraud.

Either way it seems that these auction items that Trump purchased would be tax violations. To speak nothing of the swarminess of Trump publicly pretending to make charity contributions that he never paid for.
posted by JackFlash at 4:28 PM on September 12, 2016 [81 favorites]


The sense of cultural primacy and cultural preservation is inevitably generational. Irish-Americans and other white Catholics went from Al Smith to JFK in 32 years. Three decades after that, white Catholics had been assimilated into conservatism: Scalia and O'Reilly and Giuliani.

White conservatives have had multiple opportunities for outreach to lots of small-c conservative non-whites, but the culture wars and the post-2001 turn against Muslims and the self-identity of the assimilated white conservative base has had a choking point on race since 1964 and the origins of the Southern Strategy.
posted by holgate at 4:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'm going to have to object to "valuing equal human rights" being classified as just a part of my liberal urban culture. My local culture has many eccentricities--we put french fries on sandwiches and despite living in a city with three rivers, we avoid crossing rivers at all costs. If someone passed a law against putting fries on top of salads (yes, we do this too) I'd go to the barricades. But human rights are kind of a different thing and it shouldn't (and isn't, thankfully) just be urban liberals cute little thing like fries in weird places. It's a fundamental necessity of human dignity. No one's dignity is diminished by recognizing the dignity of others. Perceptions to the contrary are not just cultural quirks, they are in opposition to human progress towards our potential as a species.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:31 PM on September 12, 2016 [30 favorites]


I guess that I'm not 100% sure what the traditional American culture that Trump represents is, aside from the shitty racism. I think that cultures change. It's inevitable, and it's certainly been true throughout US history. In 1850, a lot of Americans would say that Protestantism was fundamental to the country's identity and that the influx of Catholics represented an existential crisis. They tried to create a political party and everything, but it didn't matter, because they couldn't stop cultural change. Catholics did change the country's culture, but everyone survived, and now we're a country where it's ok that there are a lot of Catholics. Ultimately, you can't stop change, and you just have to figure out how to accommodate it. I don't think there's any way to give Trump voters what they want, if that's what they want. The US of 2050 is going to be different from the US of 1950, which was different from the US of 1850, etc.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think the only problem with that is that it's impossible to separate traditional white American culture from the racism that founded it.

Ahh, no. It is possible -- you just have to find the strands of American culture that were/are actively anti-racist and progressive and focus on them. There's much to be ashamed of in American culture and history -- and there's much to be proud of. Allow people to keep pride in their identity while they re-evaluate its flaws and work toward improving themselves and their culture.

The alternative is gathering Trumpism.
posted by notyou at 4:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


Wow, that video that roomthreeseventeen posted was really something. The only thing good about it is that it's got the abc news watermark on it. Hopefully that actually deplorable behavior will get some airplay and be used as evidence of both the awfulness of the Trump campaign, and to charge that awful man with assault.
posted by Sublimity at 4:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


After clicking on ThePinkSuperHero's link above, my first reaction:

Characterization seems legit... but in what ep did Doctor Who survive ebola?
posted by kythuen at 4:35 PM on September 12, 2016


notyou, what are you defining as traditional white American culture? I mean, if you have to find "strands" of anti-racism and progressivism within a culture, doesn't that indicate that the overall character of the culture is not predominantly anti-racist and progressive? Can we try to remember how significant slavery is to American culture, and how one might even say that traditional white American culture was in fact born from that era?
posted by palomar at 4:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah, traditional American culture also maintains that the man must be the head of the household and marriage is not a partnership of equals, which is what makes same-sex marriage so confusing. I don't see how you can reform it of its toxicity without turning it into something like modern American urban culture. I mean, we have this perfectly good culture lying around we could just USE.
posted by rikschell at 4:39 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


What if I think the positive things about American culture include that we've at times been welcoming of immigrants and tolerant of religious diversity? I mean, can I value things about American culture that cause me to oppose Trump?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:41 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


WASP's have quite literally stacked the deck against everyone else

People been on about WASPs from time to time in these threads. Hillary is the WASP candidate in this race...
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:45 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


RCP has taken her from a solid 272 EV to a solid 209 in just the last few weeks. I don't really like the volatility.

RCP is extremely conservative in their ratings, they have Virginia and Wisconsin as tossups where both averages are 5%+ and Trump has not won a poll literally on the entire page of results. PA is a tossup at 6.2% Clinton. The same rating as Missouri (Trump +3) and Georgia (Trump +2). Basically they're understating the likelihood of either candidate winning a given state compared to 538, Sabato or PEC.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:49 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


She's a Methodist. While that's technically Protestant, WASP generally means Episcopalian, maybe Presbyterian. Methodists are low church rabble rousers, historically speaking.
posted by rikschell at 4:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


all global terrorism is run by a so called "five families of terrorism.' Yes, the Five Families of Terrorism. Look it up.

Brujah, Gangrel, Malkavian, Tremere, Ventrue...
posted by happyroach at 4:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


Both candidates are WASPs. Trump is half-Scottish (his mother was born in Scotland) and Presbyterian.
posted by thefoxgod at 4:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


People been on about WASPs from time to time in these threads. Hillary is the WASP candidate in this race...

Aren't they both kinda? Sure, Clinton might be more closer in temperament and values to the traditional American WASP leader.
posted by atoxyl at 4:53 PM on September 12, 2016


Not "how to put money in the pocket" but "how can white trad-American culture survive, but without the shitty racism that founded it?"

That's really hard, because it's so profoundly tied to mobility: socioeconomic mobility, yes, but also the basic capacity for people and goods and services and jobs and capital to move. I'm sure that a lot of Trump voters have parents or grandparents who uprooted themselves, but they themselves feel rooted while mobility happens around them.
posted by holgate at 4:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


corb: "Not "how to put money in the pocket" but "how can white trad-American culture survive, but without the shitty racism that founded it?""

I think you're right that this is separate from economics, but it should probably be separate from politics too. It should be a cultural movement with books and movies and websites and the like that exemplify what that group aspires to be. A true bottom-up cultural movement is something the right really needs to develop on its own, independent from interest groups like evangelical Christians and Libertarian billionaires.
posted by Kevin Street at 4:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Meh. I think that WASP is actually a pretty meaningless term at this point. "Anglo-Saxon" isn't really a thing in modern America. I don't think that having German ancestry is politically or socially significant in modern America.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


oops yeah - see the comment above me. Yeah his dad's name is German but that's not too far off anyway.
posted by atoxyl at 4:54 PM on September 12, 2016


Well, Tim Kaine isn't a WASP.

Where was this heading?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:55 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


That too. German-Americans are fully "white" at this point, I don't think they're treated/considered any differently than British-Americans.

WASP now basically is just WP (white and protestant). Catholics aren't too far off these days, but White and Protestant is still probably the most privileged subset. Few people split hairs about which denomination of Protestant you are or which European country your ancestors were from (as long as you look white).
posted by thefoxgod at 4:57 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


During this election, the commentariat have written oh so many pieces about just who are these Trump supporters, and why they are 'nice' people, and how is it that such 'nice' people could vote to elect the Pope of the Church of Assholes to the Presidency. It's almost as if loving one's children, having some friends, and being reasonably polite to strangers is the benchmark for being a moral person. However, I know people who do all of those things, without actively trying to undermine my human rights.

"Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night,
may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."


For years, part of the insidious thing about racism is that its most overt, awful displays happened in the dark - often under a hood. White men who wanted to murder and terrify everyone else but maintain a veneer of respectability during the day - or at least shield themselves from the consequences of actions that they knew to be wrong. I suspect even these horrible people would have claimed that they weren't racist - the same reason a murderer would say they weren't a murderer. Because they were lying.

I think as racism has had less and less legal protection (as Jim Crow laws were ruled illegal), racists feel less and less cover for their racism. They want to go on being able to have institutional support for their racism during the day so they can feel better for the things they do in the dark corners of the internet.

This is the thing that worries me about the "secret Trump supporter" scenario. That maybe there's a way higher number of racists out there who don't want to admit they wear a hood at night but would be relieved to see the legal cover for their racism restored. They'd feel better about themselves. I hope that there are fewer people like this than Trump hopes. I think I'm right - but humanity has let me down before.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:58 PM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


That too. German-Americans are fully "white" at this point, I don't think they're treated/considered any differently than British-Americans.

WASP now basically is just WP (white and protestant). Catholics aren't too far off these days, but White and Protestant is still probably the most privileged subset. Few people split hairs about which denomination of Protestant you are or which European country your ancestors were from (as long as you look white).


Just think. If history went a little bit differently the English would have been the half-caste of Europe being the Anglo-Saxon-Norman-Celtic mutts.
posted by Talez at 5:04 PM on September 12, 2016


I think in the Northeast, WASPiness is a more specific thing, like being in the Social Register.
posted by rikschell at 5:08 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


If history went little bit different, we'd all be going to Kubali Khan elementary school.
posted by clavdivs at 5:10 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


WASP now basically is just WP (white and protestant). Catholics aren't too far off these days, but White and Protestant is still probably the most privileged subset. Few people split hairs about which denomination of Protestant you are or which European country your ancestors were from (as long as you look white).

I'm a straight white male with a Polish last name, raised sort-of Catholic. I haven't heard a Pollock joke since junior high and I can't remember ever being held back or discriminated against in any way by virtue of being nominally Catholic. This may all be a product of being from the west coast, but even in the military the only demographics-based heat I ever got was over being a Californian. Even that was pretty much meaningless.

Most of the extended family members I can actually name are Irish, not Polish. They're all on the east cost. Never once did I even hear of their parents or grandparents suffering discrimination for being Irish.

The divisions within whiteness are a real thing in as much as they're a matter of historical record. And yeah, you'll find some people who still cling to them. But by and large every time someone brings up "Yeah but white people oppressed white people, too!" my eyes start rolling they hurt. Stuff like that is far, far more a matter of past tense than present.

It also says a lot about a person who 1) says that people claim they're discriminated against or oppressed to get attention and/or to be cool, and then 2) turns around and claims their own white demographics suffer discrimination, too.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:12 PM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


Ha, my husband just got canvassed (Dem).
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:12 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


It should be a cultural movement with books and movies and websites and the like that exemplify what that group aspires to be.

Perhaps consider the modern LDS community in that context: it is conservative and largely votes Republican and has its less-shining moments of institutional political activism in recent years, but it is clearly a very distinctive culture in an ongoing conversation with its own history and its place in American society, and there's a good chance that Trump wins the state with only a 42% plurality.
posted by holgate at 5:12 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


See also: Scientology.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:21 PM on September 12, 2016


It puts the deplorables in the basket!
posted by clavdivs at 5:24 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Not "how to put money in the pocket" but "how can white trad-American culture survive, but without the shitty racism that founded it?"

This restriction on the universe of acceptable solutions makes no sense, because these white rural Americans do want money to be put in their pockets, but they don't want to let go of the racism that lets them cash those checks while voting to deny that same support to others. If we waved a magic wand and eliminated farm subsidies, the mortgage interest deduction, food stamps, Medicaid, and Social Security, you bet your ass white rural Americans would be at the head of the pitchfork-and-torch-wielding mob demanding that those programs be restored.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:28 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


If history went little bit different, we'd all be going to Kubali Khan elementary school.

Kubali Khan Academy, surely.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:32 PM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


In Xanadu did Kublai Khan,
A stately charter school decree.
posted by box at 5:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [83 favorites]


"Outside Donald Trump's rally in Asheville, NC: A "Deplorable Lives Matter" sign:"

Whether the initial "gaffe" was planned or not, the decision to double down on the deplorable part when she regretted "half" was genius.
posted by chris24 at 5:38 PM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


People been on about WASPs from time to time in these threads. Hillary is the WASP candidate in this race...

Trump is a WASP. Strictly speaking, they're both WASPs, although as a Methodist Clinton is less a member of the old school traditional ruling elite than Trump.
posted by zarq at 5:42 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump is a WASP. Strictly speaking, they're both WASPs, although as a Methodist Clinton is less a member of the old school traditional ruling elite than Trump.

Also Trump grew up wealthy while Clinton did not.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 5:44 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Jeb was the WASP candidate in this race, and we saw how that worked out for him.
posted by box at 5:45 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh looky, turns out America's Goofy Stepdad Tim Kaine had a goofy stepdad of his own in his missionary years, and that goofy stepdad was THE SPECTRE OF CHE GUEVARA.

Seems like the character assassination starts a little earlier every election season, don't it.
posted by Rhaomi at 5:47 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Obama has a spider, a puffbird, and a few fish, but no wasps.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:50 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Is the Trump campaign actually fighting for college educated white women? I know that's typically a swing demographic but I see zero evidence Trump is actually trying to get them (or I should say "us").

Careful, the next idea on the whiteboard is for everyone to write "Trump" on their dicks and send unsolicited photos of them.
posted by ctmf at 5:50 PM on September 12, 2016


You know those sarcastic postcards with cartoons of mom, dad, and kids, Timmy and Carol where mom is wearing a perfect wasp-waisted dress pouring a martini for dad who is wearing slippers and smoking a pipe? All of them are blonde and smiling and perfectly coiffed? I believe this fiction is the America that people want to "return" to, except it never existed except on TV.

There are mostly a bunch of people under 60, who weren't even alive in that era, and older who may have been alive but are stuck in some nostalgia hole that is delusional. This, I believe, is the image these white Trump supporters have in mind.
posted by Sophie1 at 5:56 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


No, its elementary that the FFP phrasing should be: Road Maoi Trvmp managed to move attention to Hillarys "basket of deplorables" for a day, media turns 9/11 memorial service into a farse.

She is running to lose at this point. She could have won this in her arm chair with a tea cozy for VP.
posted by clavdivs at 5:56 PM on September 12, 2016


There are mostly a bunch of people under 60, who weren't even alive in that era, and older who may have been alive but are stuck in some nostalgia hole that is delusional. This, I believe, is the image these white Trump supporters have in mind.

Every year, American culture embarks on a massive project to carefully recreate the Christmases of baby boomers' childhoods.
posted by Talez at 5:57 PM on September 12, 2016 [32 favorites]


Nick At Nite's got some 'splainin to do!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


"I believe this fiction is the America that people want to "return" to, except it never existed..."

Oh, you've never seen Hazel.

Im guessing Ted just stings like a bee. Ben Carson, on the other hand, is proficient with xylocaine.

But I learned that Hillary is less, lower in the WASP heirarchy of derogitory terms.
A class act basket there.
posted by clavdivs at 6:05 PM on September 12, 2016


Given Trump's praise of Kim Jong-Un, someone should ask him at a debate or religious forum whether he "has to give credit" and finds "incredible" the North Koreans who have gone to their deaths for the sake of practicing Christianity. Or if the reserves that praise for the guy in charge of everything, who is in charge because his grandfather and father set him up to be in charge, murdering his subordinates when they show any sign of independence or rivalry.
posted by XMLicious at 6:10 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's - it's hard, but not impossible.

corb, I have often, vehemently if lurk-ily, disagreed with your views, but I have to say that you make me proud to be a part of this community. It's sooo easy to be a with-the-grain drive-by snarker here, and I imagine it's a lot of work to be a sharp and eloquent dissenter, to say nothing of your on-the-spot RNC reportage. Thanks, is all.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 6:11 PM on September 12, 2016 [47 favorites]


To paraphrase the Simpsons, NPR became a hardcore Fox clone so gradually I didn't even notice!

I think I missed the wave of fairweather megathreadders, but just to repeat:

NPR News is not your friend. They were complicit in the selling of torture, warrantless wiretapping (ah the salad days) and both Iraq War Original, and Iraq War II: The Shittening.

Turn them off! Go old school funk, podcasts, audiobooks, learning company lectures, - you still haven't listened to all of Prince's back catalog that you ordered - or, failing that, sports radio, AM, or drive quietly and think about candy! Anything but give NPR News another chance! They're treating you like s**t, DTMFNPRA!
posted by petebest at 6:13 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


My 24 hour avoidance of cable news has allowed me to face life without my head exploding. I get the sense cable news actually makes life worse. JCPL: moderate!

I will continue to experiment with this newfound lack of listening to crying bedwetters on the television telling me how doomed we all are.
posted by Justinian at 6:13 PM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


But secondly, even if Trump properly donated the items he bought at auction to another charity, he still wouldn't be off the hook. That is because you can only deduct the portion of a payment to a charity auction that is greater than the fair market value of the item. For example if you bid on a $30,000 car and win with a $40,000 bid, you can't deduct the full $40,000 as a charity donation. What you have done is simply purchased a $30,000 car and donated $10,000 more to the charity. Only $10,000 is tax deductible.

This isn't really relevant with regards to a six foot painting of Trump since the FMV of that is negative five hundred dollars. Negative five thousand if it's not flammable.
posted by phearlez at 6:16 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


A note on the scanned copy of "Brownies" - the PDF is 9+ mb, to warn you if you're downloading it via a cell phone data connection]

I guess it's kind of charming that you're concerned enough about people's bandwidth bills that you'll warn them about this but not concerned enough about the author's bills to provide a link that involves her getting paid so that she can afford to keep writing.

So here, for the people that might want to help ensure that such works keep getting written.
posted by Candleman at 6:21 PM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


Well, I made it to the rally. I was fortunate enough to be able to make it into the Wall Street garage with 7 slots left (Thanks Obama!). I hit a local store for the honk missing from my costume and made a circuit of downtown to spread the weird and setttled at the front of the civic center around 1. The crowd started slowly and and was pretty well anti-Trump in the area immediately in front and spilling out in the closed streets, since all of the supporters snaked out and away in an orderly line, all of us enjoying the Basilica in the background.

Some small chanting on both sides erupted every once in a while, and the drum guys (with bonus Basilica's bells) were at it on all afternoon (also the guy in that video was is not me. I want that to be clear. He didn't even have a sign. There were two clowns, Charlotte Observer.) There were some loud voices in anger, but mostly it was pretty mellow.

Somebody told me about 5 that Trump was already there - I didn't plan on seeing him, since I figured he would go in the big service entrance around the corner. The crowd peaked between 5 and 6, people stopped going in, and it seemed like barely 6:30 when when people started coming out. Things stayed civil and both groups were very closely mixed as the Trump supporters cleared the area as quickly as possible and the rest of us hung out. There were still people leaving the arena at 7 when I left.

I imagine evidence will emerge, plenty of people were taking pictures and video. I talked with some Belgian news guys but didn't get their details. The one picture of me I've found so far was before I had my sign. I'm glad I went and that I did my part to help prevent global thermonuclear war.
posted by achrise at 6:26 PM on September 12, 2016 [20 favorites]


But secondly, even if Trump properly donated the items he bought at auction to another charity, he still wouldn't be off the hook. That is because you can only deduct the portion of a payment to a charity auction that is greater than the fair market value of the item

If the Fdn paid for it, though, he wouldn't be getting a deduction, because it's the fdn's. It would just be a donation (or bargain sale) from one charity to another, which is fine.
posted by jpe at 6:26 PM on September 12, 2016


I think the only problem with that is that it's impossible to separate traditional white American culture from the racism that founded it.

"White" culture (in the US) is not defined by what it is, but by what it IS NOT.

When you think - "What is whiteness?" - the concept splinters into a million things that in many ways are opposed: NASCAR; The Preppy Handbook; Nicholas Sparks; New Republic magazine culture; Seaside, FL; lace curtain Catholics; Puritans in Thanksgiving hats; "trailer trash"; Jonathan Franzen; the alt-right; leaf peeping in New England; Ayn Rand acolytes; on and on and on.

What is whiteness not? Right now - it's not black culture; it's not Native / American Indian culture; it's not Muslim; it's selectively Jewish, Asian, East Asian, and Hispanic. Whiteness is constructed by harnessing majority power and the concept of white "supremacy" to erect fences that block out The Other. When whiteness appears to be under threat, when too many people are outside the fence and not enough are inside, the gates become a bit more porous, and whiteness shifts again.

We are in a moment where the gates are beginning to expand again (and corb's father is ready and waiting), and some of the people inside aren't getting the message that those they looked down upon are starting to walk inside, and some of the people inside are disagreeing about what "kind" of people are palatable enough to enter next.
posted by sallybrown at 6:28 PM on September 12, 2016 [42 favorites]


All that is to say, there is no way to affirmatively "preserve" white culture as a sop for those feeling ignored by current society. There is only the preservation of those fences -- discrimination and hatred of The Other -- that create whiteness. And that's not something I'm willing to work for, regardless of how angry, disaffected, or depressed people inside the fence are becoming.
posted by sallybrown at 6:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


> NPR News is not your friend. They were complicit in the selling of torture, warrantless wiretapping (ah the salad days) and both Iraq War Original, and Iraq War II: The Shittening.

Turn them off! Go old school funk, podcasts, audiobooks, learning company lectures, - you still haven't listened to all of Prince's back catalog that you ordered - or, failing that, sports radio, AM, or drive quietly and think about candy! Anything but give NPR News another chance! They're treating you like s**t, DTMFNPRA!


My commute has improved immensely (especially with the advent of some weird as-yet-undiagnosed problem that means the radio doesn't work) since I switched to podcasts and listening my way through all the Terry Pratchett audiobooks my library has.
posted by rtha at 6:31 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I mean, I'd like to believe that Tim Kaine is some kind of Marxist radical, but his record in office doesn't really bear that out...
posted by indubitable at 6:31 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


The NPR hate is a puzzle to me. One might ask about it the same thing one asks about Hillary: these various crimes against journalism make it worse than the competition how? Living on the edge of a large metro area, my other options for news/talk radio are: right-wing crud that makes you stupider by the minute, putatively "left-wing" crud that also makes you stupider by the minute, a News McNuggets station whose only real reason for existing is that it gives traffic updates every 10 minutes, and a tiny local AM station that carries some really good discussion programs but (a) mostly just plays music and (b) is out of range for most of my commute anyway.

My local NPR station carries Democracy Now and some excellent local news and analysis that would definitely not find a home anywhere on the dial if that station didn't exist. I do not feel the slightest compunction about supporting it.
posted by shenderson at 6:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


Let's check in on the race for 2020! Rick Perry on Dancing With The Stars (via my mom): "It's an opportunity to fall in front of 10 million people".

Oh Rick, you've already done that repeatedly.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:33 PM on September 12, 2016


One way to look at this is how the inheritance tax became totemic in certain communities thanks to Frank Luntz, even though most rural family properties don't come near the current threshold, and the people who benefit most from any changes are ones who already have lots of money and use various strategies to avoid capital gains ever being taxed. The basic idea of handing everything down has purchase beyond mere possessions.

I believe this fiction is the America that people want to "return" to, except it never existed except on TV.

The "except" slightly masks the significance of collective fictions, particularly in environments with limited access to them. I can't speak to the experience of American Boomers -- though I know that it was very different to my parents' in the UK -- but I have been able to see how the British 70s and 80s have coalesced over the past decade or so into a kind of family album of prevailing ideas and fictions, indebted to what we were all watching on the telly or hearing on the radio at the same time.

This is the last Boomer battle.
posted by holgate at 6:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


The NYTimes has a pretty touching update from Capt. Khan's gravesite:
ARLINGTON, Va. — Nineteen rows down and 20 to the right. That’s the math Mimi Robinson wanted to know: the distance between her father and Capt. Humayun Khan at Arlington National Cemetery.

Like many Americans, she was moved when Captain Khan’s father testified to his son’s values and sacrifice at the Democratic National Convention in July. So, a few days ago, she walked the neatly ordered grounds from the grave site of her father, a member of the Coast Guard who died in 2014, to the marker for Captain Khan.

At the foot of the captain’s grave stone, with its Islamic crescent and Purple Heart inscription, she left a handwritten note on a sheet of loose-leaf paper.

“I’ve been thinking about the ways politics and bureaucracy have tainted my love for this country,” she wrote.

“But seeing your parents, learning about you — has shown and reminded me of the dignity, love and blessings stitched into the diverse fabric of the United States.”
posted by peeedro at 6:37 PM on September 12, 2016 [45 favorites]


I've a anti-Clinton acquaintance. This morning first it was It's not what they're saying it was, she's got some weird terminal disease! Not 20 minutes later, it was 'I was mad she hugged that kid because she's sick but no, see that was HRC's body double, so it's okay.'

Then later 'I'm protesting tomorrow so that Jill Stein can be in the debates.'

Like I can see if you wanted to protest that Johnson be in the debates, he's been polling not too far from the magic 15% but Stein? Some people, they really hate HRC but don't want to vote for anyone near Conservative like Trump/Johnson.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:40 PM on September 12, 2016


For some reason my brain has decided that this week the election is playing out like the film Rounders. Matt Daemon is Hillary and Trump is KGB. Basket of Deplorables was Hill's "check" in the final hand. [spoilers]
posted by humanfont at 6:45 PM on September 12, 2016


Tim Kaine's Radical Roots

The author, Ken Blackwell, is a proudly anti-gay former Ohio Republican and member of the Family Research Council.

I didn't realize they printed such tripe in The Hill.

Journalistic and academic research has now shown that Liberation Theology itself was quite possibly a product of a Kremlin disinformation campaign designed to undermine the Church and bring Catholic countries into the Soviet sphere.

LOL...remind me again why a link to a Liberty University paper is considered "academic research"?
posted by sallybrown at 6:46 PM on September 12, 2016 [29 favorites]


The problem is that if we let Jill Stein in the debates, we'd have to invite Harambe, since she's behind him in the polls, and it would surely exclude Egg McMuffin's feelings to be excluded when a dead gorilla made the cut.
posted by zachlipton at 6:48 PM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


Re: NPR these various crimes against journalism make it worse than the competition how?

Not worse, just not that much better. They are become Fox, the troller of worlds.

If there aren't any better options and there's really a need to hear news, okay. But as soon as it's reasonable, check out some other options. I have it on good authority there are way more new podcasts daily than one would need for a week of commutes, and at much better signal-to-crap ratio.

Also, listen to those Prince albums. He's really good and we know this election is funk-deficient. He'll heal what's ailin' ya
posted by petebest at 6:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Holy shit, I'm not even anything close to Catholic, and I'm offended at the implication that liberation theology was a KREMLIN CONSPIRACY. what the fuck.
posted by yasaman at 6:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


see the comment above me. Yeah his dad's name is German but that's not too far off anyway

Guess where the Anglo-Saxons came from.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I just found out that James O'Keefe staged a fake pro-Trump rally on my campus today. (This is a few days after some guys smashed a Trump standee that the College Republicans had set up.) O'Keefe brought a cardboard Trump and a bunch of fake bricks and started building a wall on the main plaza. People surrounded him, kicked down his wall, and chanted "fuck you, Trump! Fuck you, Trump!"

I missed all of this because I was in a three hour lecture. I can't tell you how sad I am that there isn't a video of me yelling "fuck you, Trump!" I could show it to my grandkids.
posted by teponaztli at 6:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


corb has articulated a point that many others have made, in various ways, over the last few months: that Trump's success is largely a symptom of identity-anxiety among a certain class of white Americans, a sense that their culture is being lost.

Now, I can believe that. But before we can do much with that idea, we need to get a lot more specific about what culture we're talking about here. What, exactly, do people think they're "losing"? I honestly don't know – if someone has (even part of) an answer, please share. But I'll spitball a bit.

The first thing that comes to my mind is the "war on Christmas" meme: "You can't even say 'Merry Christmas' anymore without being accused of being a bigot! Christians are being persecuted in this country!" &c.

Which is nonsense, of course. You say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" because it's annoying when people make assumptions about your religious beliefs (or lack thereof), and you don't want to be annoying. And Christianity is, and has always been, the majority religion in the US – asking Christians to be more considerate of the non-Christians around them for a change is hardly "persecution".

So, that one's a dud – nothing's being "lost" except the privilege to blithely treat one's own culture as normal and proper (and as the only culture that's normal and proper), and to act without thought or consideration for others.

In a similar vein: "Why do we have to press 1 for English nowadays? If you can't speak English in public, then go back to Mexico!"

Again: nothing is being "lost" here except for the luxury of having one's own culture coddled and catered to (and not having to spare a second thought for anyone else). As the saying goes: when you're used to privilege, the absence of privilege feels like persecution.

If I'm missing something here – if there are elements of white culture that (a) are actually being lost, and (b) don't simply boil down to privilege – someone please set me straight. Because I'm at a loss to imagine what they are.

There is only the preservation of those fences -- discrimination and hatred of The Other -- that create whiteness.

Very well said. It's not a culture that white folks are afraid of losing, but an identity. Specifically, the culturally constructed identity that we call whiteness. They (correctly) perceive that their whiteness – and the privileges that come with it – are at risk of being taken away. And so they're freaking out.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:55 PM on September 12, 2016 [42 favorites]


That Tim Kaine article is amazing. It's like an artifact from the 90s when someone's Radical Commie Roots might in any way be relevant.

Did Kaine's mentors teach him the art of Soviet disinformation — call yourself the very thing you seek to undermine and try to destroy it from within?


YES Tim Kaine, master manipulator! Don't listen to those technicolor blues riffs children he's going to turn u hippe!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:55 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]




heatherlogan and I just filled out our absentee ballots for Wisconsin.

2x🧀4H!
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:56 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm not even anything close to Catholic, and I'm offended at the implication that liberation theology was a KREMLIN CONSPIRACY

Vatican II? Kremlin Conspiracy. When the priest has those chunks of bread for Communion instead of wafers? Kremlin Conspiracy. The movie Rudy? Kremlin Conspiracy. Cantors who play acoustic guitar during Mass? Kremlin Conspiracy. Conan O'Brien? Kremlin Conspiracy. Pope Francis? Definitely Kremlin Conspiracy.
posted by sallybrown at 6:57 PM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


The Rude Pundit: If You Give a Racist a Candidate...:A Child's Guide to Understanding the Basket of Deplorables:
If you give a racist a candidate, he'll think that it's okay to be a racist.

When he thinks it's okay to be racist, he'll openly say and write racist things. When he's finished, he'll start saying sexist things, too.

Then he'll go on Twitter and get angry at anyone who calls him racist. When he goes on Twitter, he'll notice that other people who like his candidate hate Jews, gays, and Muslims. So he'll probably start saying terrible things about them, too.

When he's finished tweeting and posting to message boards, he'll want to go to a rally for his candidate. He'll start yelling things there. He might even get carried away and yell things about shooting or deporting people he doesn't like. He may even end up taking a swing at someone who looks different from him as well!

When he's done, he'll probably demand that you take him seriously. You'll have to watch TV news people treat his beliefs like they're just fine.
posted by palindromic at 6:59 PM on September 12, 2016 [58 favorites]


Here's the NC GOP's response [to the NCAA pulling out of North Carolina]. I made sure it was not a parody account.

Here I was hoping it was going to be a variant of "We will put no impediment in your way. The members of the North Carolinan GOP will be down at the dockside waving you a fond farewell as you sail off into the sunset."

But instead we get the KFC double down. Just more greasy bullshit.
posted by Talez at 7:00 PM on September 12, 2016


Tim Kaine es el candidato hondureña.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:01 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Possible Terms for Trump Supporters."

7. Ku Klux Klambake
posted by chris24 at 7:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


nothing's being "lost" except the privilege to blithely treat one's own culture as normal and proper (and as the only culture that's normal and proper), and to act without thought or consideration for others.

That is everything. Remember, when your existence is built around privilege over others, losing that privilege feels like the worst oppression. Imagine of Deplorable Donald Trump feels toward everybody (except despotic rulers of countries).
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:07 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence: We're Not Talking About Trump's Birtherism, It's a '4-Year-Old Issue'

July 2015:
Asked whether he thought Obama was born in the U.S., Trump responded: “I don’t know. I really don’t know. I don’t know why he wouldn’t release his records.”
posted by kirkaracha at 7:12 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]




That Kaine article hommmmggg that takes me back!

I went to a Catholic high school (despite my family not being in any way Christian, let alone Catholic) that, through a random quirk of school consolidation and teacher seniority, was pretty much run by liberation theologists for the period when I attended. (My husband wound up teaching there briefly about 15 years later and that time had definitely come to an end via a local conservative Catholic family with very deep pockets throwing money hand over fist at the school as long as they kept the commie stuff out.)

I've seen the movie Romero twice in the context of high school classes. Also Jesus Christ Superstar. My dad the Libertarian was pretty put out by it and tried the party line about liberation theology on me (not only are they religious but, horrors!, they're collectivist religious--as if I hadn't already seen all the parts of the Bible where Jesus straight up was like, 'Hey everyone in my Church, you shouldn't have personal belongings, you should share everything you have.') but that was the beginning of the end with me and conservatism because the liberation theologists were totally harmless. Like, the worst offense my one religion teacher committed was occasionally wearing a dashiki to school. I graduated thinking that if you called yourself a Christian and didn't believe that the poor should be uplifted and empowered and that the rich have a lot to answer for, then you're a pretty shitty Christian because all that shit is in the Bible. I'm still not a Christian, but liberation theologists are all right, man.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [61 favorites]


Quinn Norton wrote a couple of pieces on whiteness for Medium back in 2014, and one part of her argument is that whiteness is defined by a set of proscribed behaviours dictated to non-whites under the auspices of being for their own benefit and safety. (That becomes starker in the context of BLM, but covers things like where black children are allowed to play or hang out.) Trouble comes when whiteness is no longer perceived as providing even a meagre premium:
White privilege is sold to whites, but it is the socio-political equivalent of putting “Contains No Arsenic!” on a breakfast cereal box. White folk have bought into that message tremendously. I mean, who wants a breakfast cereal with arsenic in it? Of course, the problem is there’s no reason cereal should ever have arsenic in it in the first place.
posted by holgate at 7:16 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Also, anyone sympathetic to liberation theology put 2 and 2 together about Kaine and his mission trip the minute they heard him tell the story. Jesuit school + the 80s + mission trip to Honduras = liberation theology. Come on.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:17 PM on September 12, 2016 [24 favorites]


Here's the NC GOP's response [to the NCAA pulling out of North Carolina]. I made sure it was not a parody account.

I can only hope she and the rest of those transphobic assholes one day look back at this moment in shame and horror.
posted by zarq at 7:19 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump's success is largely a symptom of identity-anxiety among a certain class of white Americans, a sense that their culture is being lost.

Okay, there's some of this, probably. But I don't think it's the main thing.

The main thing is, Trump is a TV celebrity.

He strikes many people as "strong," and for many people the strong-angry-daddy type is a big thing.

He's also very plainspoken and easy to understand.

He's also angry and many people are angry and confused, because they find life confusing and complicated.

So: Count up the angry people who are easily confused, impressed by TV celebrities, and wish for a strong daddy type. Probably about 32% of the population.

The rest of Trump voters are just Republicans who won't let go.
posted by argybarg at 7:20 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


Trump's success is largely a symptom of identity-anxiety among a certain class of white Americans = many people are angry and confused, because they find life confusing and complicated.

I think is the point
posted by OHenryPacey at 7:23 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


I guess it's kind of charming that you're concerned enough about people's bandwidth bills ...

Strive to be charming. Link to the Kindle edition (559 KB)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:25 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


[One comment deleted. This is 100% not a referendum on corb; if you can't participate in here without taking it in that direction, step out of the thread.]
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:26 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


It is the point, but I think the anger is just anger, not anger rooted in identity-anxiety. It's anger that can be funneled into whatever is around, or whatever demagogues want to shape it into.
posted by argybarg at 7:27 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Let's check in on the race for 2020! Rick Perry on Dancing With The Stars (via my mom): "It's an opportunity to fall in front of 10 million people".

I've heard that he's quite charming on the show. Guess the trajectory of politics to show biz is preferable than the alternative, from the nation's point of view.

Remember that charming time when people were most scared of him as a dumber, more bellicose version of Bush? And here we are.
posted by Apocryphon at 7:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


whatever demagogues want to shape it into.

But the GOP are most definitely shaping it into Us (white america) vs Them (anything not white/hetero/christian)
posted by OHenryPacey at 7:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh indeed they are.
posted by argybarg at 7:34 PM on September 12, 2016


Tomorrow's New York Post cover.

1) Fuck them.
2) I hope Hillary is careful about how hard she's laughing at the GOP reactions to this and the "basket of deplorables" - I wouldn't want her to pull a stomach muscle in addition to her other ailments.
posted by sallybrown at 7:38 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Right, but anger comes from somewhere, right? That's what I'm interested in figuring out. I find it hard to believe that vast numbers of white, culturally traditional Americans just happen to be simultaneously and spontaneously angry for no particular reason.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:39 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's also very plainspoken and easy to understand.

On what planet is he easy to understand
posted by tzikeh at 7:40 PM on September 12, 2016 [23 favorites]


When he goes off prompter it always sounds like word salad gibberish to me. The entire point of complete sentences is to be easily comprehensible. I think "plainspoken and easy to understand" is code for "uses the patterns and vocabulary of a 5 year old."

Remember, he has the best words. The best words.
posted by Justinian at 7:43 PM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


David Duke blames the Jews for Wolf Blitzer grilling Pence on whether or not he is deplorable.

Wolf Blitzer demands that Pense call me "Deplorable" and he refuses.. Wolfie boy, still upset that I outed you on CNN as an AIPAC AGENT?

posted by Sophie1 at 7:46 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


I find it hard to believe that vast numbers of white, culturally traditional Americans just happen to be simultaneously and spontaneously angry for no particular reason.\

The loss of cultural hegemony.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:47 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


If I were to order a Clinton/Kaine yard sign today, how long would it take before it arrives?

I ordered my sign (and some other tchotchkes - the pillow, the flower tote, coasters, magnet, cough, I went a little nuts, ahahahah) on 8/22/2016 and the order confirmation email I received said I would receive everything in 3-4 weeks. So I'm hoping to get my Hillary stuff by next Wednesday. I think if you order now you'd almost certainly get the sign 2-4 weeks before the election. That said, my understanding is that local Democratic county committees who will be working on GOTV efforts will definitely have some swag/signs for volunteers so signing up for a phone bank or canvassing session might be a successful way of getting a sign before October.
posted by longdaysjourney at 7:49 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Right, but anger comes from somewhere, right? That's what I'm interested in figuring out. I find it hard to believe that vast numbers of white, culturally traditional Americans just happen to be simultaneously and spontaneously angry for no particular reason.

No, they're being directed.

Look, I don't feel 100% on what I'm about to write. It's kind of unpleasant and possibly wrong. But I think that there's a certain number of people who are ... kind of stupid. Or incurious. Or simple. And the world has become an unforgiving place for them. They'll never have very good jobs, they'll never be like the families in commercials. And this makes them angry. And maybe they were also kind of angry to begin with.

There's a culture of angry to belong to. Yelling at wrestling, yelling at monster truck rallies, fighting in bars. The people who do much of the above are just not very smart, or they're smart but emotionally damaged.

I know a lot of people who were thoughtful and sensitive and got the hell out of places that felt mean and angry. Others didn't, or couldn't.

I don't know, I'm not proud of what I'm saying. I just wonder if stupidity, anger and meanness aren't just constants, like electrical cables waiting to be plugged in to whatever socket is around.
posted by argybarg at 7:50 PM on September 12, 2016 [48 favorites]


David Duke blames the Jews for Wolf Blitzer grilling Pence on whether or not he is deplorable.


Wait, what did we do?

Man, our world encompassing conspiracies are getting a bit thin.
posted by Lord_Pall at 7:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


“My opponent’s campaign of hate. Hillary Clinton has been running a hate-filled and negative campaign with no policy, no solutions and no new ideas.”

"By contrast, I've been going around the country offering very detailed plans for reform and change."
The psychological projection is past delusional levels! My "can't even" can't take much more of this!
posted by Talez at 7:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [33 favorites]


That actually makes a good bit of sense, argybarg. Thanks.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I find it hard to believe that vast numbers of white, culturally traditional Americans just happen to be simultaneously and spontaneously angry for no particular reason.

I don't. I've given this one a lot of thought because I have some form of depression, and it manifests largely as raw, inchoate anger most of my waking life. I wouldn't kill a guy just to watch him die, but I pretty much always want to. Having spent a lot of time with that, trying to work with it and shape it into something beyond gibbering madness, I've noticed that we are *told* to be angry.

It's a big component of toxic masculinity, this notion that we should react to pretty much every negative stimuli by being rage monsters. We're told that being gentle and compromising and compassionate is coded as feminine - and therefore weak - in the bulk of mainstream pop culture. I have made an honest effort not to give in to all of that despite a natural inclination, but I understand that it is difficult, and most people wouldn't put forth the work.

So I find it super easy to believe.

Upon preview:
I just wonder if stupidity, anger and meanness aren't just constants, like electrical cables waiting to be plugged in to whatever socket is around.

I don't think it must be embraced the way our current culture does, but I do think a certain amount of it *is* inevitable for the reasons you just went over. Like, I've gotten tired of the 'the racists will die off' arguments. I'm not having them anymore. There will always be upset people that might form into mobs about *something*, and it probably won't be something clever.
posted by mordax at 7:54 PM on September 12, 2016 [24 favorites]


Hmmm... I ordered a sign pack and bumper sticker back on August 4th and still haven't received anything, not even a shipping notification. Is that weird?
posted by Rhaomi at 7:55 PM on September 12, 2016


David Duke blames the Jews for Wolf Blitzer grilling Pence on whether or not he is deplorable.

Seems like kind of a low bar. You would think we'd spend our precious time influencing more important people than Wolf Blitzer.
posted by zarq at 7:56 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


Remember, he has the best words. The best words.

Having transcribed(ish) a few of his off-prompter speeches, it's more like:
I have the best words, the best... Putin said I was brilliant. Can you believe? Imagine if we could get along with Russia... Obama, who created ISIS... he says ISIL to divide us

There's no close parentheses.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:56 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Hmmm... I ordered a sign pack and bumper sticker back on August 4th and still haven't received anything, not even a shipping notification. Is that weird?

I never got a shipping notification, it just arrived spontaneously.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:57 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's anger that can be funneled into whatever is around, or whatever demagogues want to shape it into.

Except that once it gets funnelled into perceived immutables (white vs black and brown) then it is difficult to unfunnel them. Which is why this kind of campaigning has generally been treated like juggling lighting by candidates who were simultaneously cleverer and more politically normative than Trump, even if they were morally objectionable, hence the much-cited quote from Lee Atwater about how the train whistle of the 50s became a dog-whistle by the late 60s.
posted by holgate at 7:58 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hmmm... I ordered a sign pack and bumper sticker back on August 4th and still haven't received anything, not even a shipping notification. Is that weird?

I'd email them (orders@hillaryforamericashop.com) with your order number to check on status - that's going on six weeks.
posted by longdaysjourney at 7:58 PM on September 12, 2016


"By contrast, I've been going around the country offering very detailed plans for reform and change."

It's amazing. He doesn't have to actually offer a plan. He just says he has, and his supporters believe him. I've seen so much of that denial of actual reality in favor if a constructed reality on Twittter recently.
posted by happyroach at 7:59 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Seems like kind of a low bar. You would think we'd spend our precious time influencing more important people than Wolf Blitzer.

Uhhhh.... He is Jewish. The guy's name is "Blitzer" for fuck's sake and since he's definitely not a reindeer...
posted by Talez at 8:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Absolutely the least of his sins, but Duke spelled Pence wrong in his tweet too.

Interesting strategy on Duke's part here, though I suppose it's not new for him: hmm, so Pence won't call me deplorable yet, what even more deplorable things can I get away with saying?
posted by zachlipton at 8:02 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Uhhhh.... He is Jewish.

Yes, I know. His parents were Holocaust survivors.

The only thing I can think of to do in reply to David Duke is point, laugh and make sarcastic comments.
posted by zarq at 8:02 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yeah, given that Blitzer is Jewish it would be more disturbing if he was _not_ being controlled by a Jewish person, right?
posted by thefoxgod at 8:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


I find it hard to believe that vast numbers of white, culturally traditional Americans just happen to be simultaneously and spontaneously angry for no particular reason.

I'm starting to think of racism and bigotry as similar to addiction; facing it is scary, because then you must admit your own wrongdoing, and that of people you love and care about. It's easier to stay in denial, to lash out and double down, because then you never have to face yourself. But deep down you know what you're doing, so it drives you to a bad, disjointed place. It eats at your soul. You have to de-person the people you are hurting so that you don't feel guilt, but that damages you as well. And then someone like Trump comes along to enable your addiction, to say no, don't feel guilty, you are good, you are right, *they* are the bad ones, and it's so seductive, so long as you don't think about it.

And like with addicts, I can have compassion for someone living in that dark miserable place, while also wanting to stop the harm that they are doing to others. Because the victims should be considered first. But in the long run, we have to push against that denial and keep pushing or we will never be the society we should be.

It's not surprising that white America, the America that cares deeply about being white, resists and screams and tries to hurt anyone who destroys their illusions. It's a measure of how fragile those illusions are that they can't endure even the mildest questions.

It's scary because we all wonder, how violent will it get? But the only way out is through. We can't go back.
posted by emjaybee at 8:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [29 favorites]


Right, but anger comes from somewhere, right? That's what I'm interested in figuring out. I find it hard to believe that vast numbers of white, culturally traditional Americans just happen to be simultaneously and spontaneously angry for no particular reason.

Oh there are a hundred, or a hundred hundred different little reasons that any one of Trump's supporters might be angry about, but those folks have a few things in common: they've lost labor jobs, or their factory town has gone under, or their cousin is a white cop somewhere so they identify with the cops not the dead black teenager, or they're scared to be turned gay, or they once had a muslim get into the faster line in front of them at the grocery store -- and now they, suddenly and spontaneously, have a spokesman.
Trump speaks for their anger, and focuses it just enough to make them believe they share a common cause: making america great for them again.
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:05 PM on September 12, 2016


Yeah, given that Blitzer is Jewish it would be more disturbing if he was _not_ being controlled by a Jewish person, right?

My wife's Jewish so I get to see the zionist conspiracy newsletters and I'm pretty sure there was definitely a reminder for all Jewish interviewers to make sure it was known that David Duke is a giant dick.

It was either a zionist conspiracy newsletter or that page of well known facts I had lying around.
posted by Talez at 8:07 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Can we get a reporter to fork Trump and Putin, or Trump and Duke? Something like, people say you're not at all a boss. You just a following loo-hoo-hoo-ser who does whatever Vladimir Putin wants you to do. Totally an underling.
[answer]
Oh yeah, well then can you name something Putin was wrong about? Say something he wouldn't like to hear.

I mean, sure, it's juvenile high school popularity silliness. But that's the level of sophistication his supporters understand.
posted by ctmf at 8:08 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


"By contrast, I've been going around the country offering very detailed plans for reform and change."

BREAKING NEWS: Trump confused, can't tell the difference between himself and HRC
posted by mmoncur at 8:08 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


For anyone who has an even left:

Clinton’s reluctance to drink water causing tension with her staff: report
posted by Sophie1 at 8:11 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh yeah, [real]
posted by Sophie1 at 8:12 PM on September 12, 2016


WATERGATE
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [79 favorites]


Sophie1, can you describe what you linked to (since it has disappeared)?
posted by Mothlight at 8:15 PM on September 12, 2016


Just consistent with all his previous business enterprises... turning all the real selling points for his competition into his own claims "They say Fiji Water is imported from Fiji? Well, it isn't. Trump Water is the only water from... uh, Trump!"
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:17 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


> I just wonder if stupidity, anger and meanness aren't just constants, like electrical cables waiting to be plugged in to whatever socket is around.

This feels really right-on and true and accurate to me. A lot of that anger and meanness comes from fear - fear of losing what little one might have, fear of change, like that - and actually channeling that fear into something productive (like not being afraid) takes a kind of work and attention that a lot of people either don't have to give or just don't want to. And it waits there for someone to do the channeling, the easy kind that can happen without much work or attention, and it carves out all kinds of raw, awful, dangerous stuff. I feel awful in a way, for people who feel this awful all the time. It's a hell of a way to live, and there's only so much anyone who is not the angry fearful person can do to fix it. The change has to start from inside.
posted by rtha at 8:17 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]




Whiteness needs a culture that's made up of more than just dominance.
posted by Miko at 8:19 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's this gem from The Hill: Clinton's reluctance to drink water causing tension with her staff:
Though Hillary Clinton was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday, the real concern is chronic dehydration, sources close to the Democratic nominee told Politico.

“She won’t drink water, and you try telling Hillary Clinton to drink water,” a source said.

Clinton abruptly left a 9/11 memorial service in New York on Sunday because she felt “overheated.”

Video of Clinton leaving the event showed the former secretary of State struggling to walk to her van. At one point she appeared to collapse.

Sources told Politico that Clinton quickly recovered in the backseat of the air-conditioned van as she drank water and Gatorade.

Clinton, whose health has been under scrutiny, quickly called campaign staff and family to tell them what happened and assess the political fallout.
That's the entire article. Um...ok.
posted by sallybrown at 8:19 PM on September 12, 2016


Refresh it. I screwed up the link the first time.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Whiteness needs a culture that's made up of more than just dominance.

My response.
posted by Talez at 8:22 PM on September 12, 2016


I know you're concerned about Trump and the growing stench of fascism among the populace. But the real concern...is chronic dehydration.
posted by sallybrown at 8:24 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


"...you try telling Hillary Clinton to drink water."

This is going to turn into "The Clinton Aquafina Murders...REVEALED" on Fox by morning, isn't it?
posted by zarq at 8:24 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Whiteness needs a culture that's made up of more than just dominance.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:25 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Something something, not culture, but unearned privilege, something something, not culture, but hegemony, something something, not dying out, but becoming just like any Other, something something, lump it.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 8:26 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton's reluctance to drink water causing tension with her staff

I read that earlier today and was finally overtaken with emotion at Hillary. All of the other issues have managed to bypass my outrage filter, but NOT HYDRATING? When you're sick especially? Fuck it, I'm voting Trump.
posted by vverse23 at 8:26 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


One might ask about it the same thing one asks about Hillary: these various crimes against journalism make it worse than the competition how?

It depends on what you call the competition, no? If you think of the competition as other news radio, sure, I guess it does okay. But for me, this morning, the competition was that my phone picked "Southern California Wants to be Western New York" and I drove along on this fine, cool, sunny, autumn-y morning thinking HOW FUCKING MUCH I love living here and before long the leaves will turn and the nights will get cold and I need to get some new cinnamon sticks and cloves to get ready for making hot cider. And this afternoon, the competition was that the phone picked "Atom Bomb Baby" and I turned it up real loud and sang along while I drove home, thinking happy thoughts of how when I got home I could murder super mutants and Brotherhood d-bags alike. Beat the shit out of NPR, I tell you what.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:28 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]




T.D. Strange: WATERGATE

Bravo!
posted by zarq at 8:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Heyo, just wanted to drop in with this palate cleanser of awesome photos of Barack and Michelle Obama being awesome and in love and oh my god i am going to miss these people so much.
posted by lalex at 8:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


Surely the relevant comparison, both because it wasn't actually a scandal and because we've been discussing white people culture, is Whitewater, no?
posted by zachlipton at 8:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]




When I was a kid ... eeny, meeny, miny, moe was quite happily followed up with ..."

I clearly remember the day I came home from pre-K and shared the rhyme I'd learned, which ended with "catch a tiger by the toe" and my dad being surprised and telling me what it was when HE learned it. I looked at him like he had suddenly grown another head cause I DID know that word and somehow knew how bad it was. Also my mom was in the background trying to get him to shut the hell up.

My dad would have voted for Trump if he were alive, mostly as a troll.
posted by threeturtles at 8:40 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Whiteness needs
Final edition. Why Miko, I thought history would provide some clue as to those who may have tried to change or try too, this cultural of dominant white males...hmm, pretty tall order historically. How about the countries first elected female senator (Hattie Caraway) did she try? Does her being first serve as a small victory to fight dominant behavior?

White, right. Well, we could use the post civil war elections of Republicans in southern states...but the Democratic Party ended that nonsense and now, LBJ seems to get the all the credit.
posted by clavdivs at 8:43 PM on September 12, 2016


As someone who grew up in Greenville, South Carolina, lived for many years in Asheville, North Carolina, and who's entire family still resides in Asheville, I am pretty qualified to say that no, it is not stupid for Trump to stage a rally there.

Lots of people have this idea that Asheville is like Portland / Boulder / Williamsburg / Austin, whatever. And....I have to be honest, not having spent a huge amount of time in those places, that they may be right? But the implication seems to be that Asheville, North Carolina is some liberal bastion that simply won't stand for it, serves NO purpose for an R candidate to visit, etc.

Which sadly, isn't true.

Look, I love Asheville. My family and many dear friends live there. We've held MetaFilter meetups. But Asheville is deeply troubled.

For starters, Asheville is very, very small. That Civic Center with the Basilica behind it? There's basically like an 8 by 10 block of "downtown" around it. Sure, there's West Asheville and residential Montford and some other areas, but the "town" itself is tiny. And it's surrounded by stereotypical racist, country-ass white people that were positively splattered in McCain / Palin signage.

And if you just focus on Asheville itself? You aren't looking at Portland. It's a lot closer to say, Sedona maybe? It has the trappings of a liberal hippy granola town, but with a streak of anti-intellectual fear-mongering conspiracy-theory tinfoil hatting buffoonery about as wide as the town itself. This is a town where "honest, caring liberals" will tell you (and constantly tell me, damn Facebook) that 9/11 was an inside job, vaccines cause autism, chemtrails are real, blah blah blah. A metric FUCKTON of Asheville "liberals" may dislike Trump, but they are also densely Bernie or Busters. The young liberal millennials that live there want reproductive rights (as long as they don't have to vaccinate the kids they choose to have) and want to save the environment (as long as the Government takes the goddamn fluoride out of the water) and so on and so on. Almost all of my feed is clogged with Asheville men and women that HATE Sec. Clinton.

I've hit the unfriend button a lot in the last few months.

So yeah, it isn't crazy for Trump to go there.
posted by lazaruslong at 8:47 PM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]




When I was a kid ... eeny, meeny, miny, moe was quite happily followed up with ..."


When I was a kid (70's) it was catch a tigger as in the Disney character. This was west coast of Canada so it somehow changed from the original. We used it all the time and it wasn't until my teens that we put everything together and figured out it's actual origin. It was pretty horrifying.
posted by Jalliah at 8:49 PM on September 12, 2016


The ad doesn't just show Clinton calling half of Trump supporters deplorable, but actually shows her doing the laundry list of why - "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic" - while showing his supporters cheering. And doesn't even refute the charge.

the point of this line of attack is that the kind of moralizing that labels one quarter of the american electorate as "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, [and] Islamaphobic" is alienating. it's the progressive flipside of conservative christians flipping out about modernity. charging such a broad list of offenses is just annoying to most people, it sounds hyperbolic and obnoxious if you aren't invested in the particulars.
posted by p3on at 8:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Whiteness needs a culture that's made up of more than just dominance.

I think about the free summer concerts that Asheville holds in the middle of downtown that are all bluegrass and old-time music, a deep-rooted part of regional culture -- one that engages with the Saturday night songs of broken families and vices and isolation as well as the Sunday morning songs of praise and thanksgiving and community. Coming from the mountains, it's inevitably a white tradition, though one played on instruments with black roots, to a diverse crowd.

There was a brief, silent BLM protest this year that the concert organisers acknowledged and respected because they are all good people.

Sing of your vices, sing your praises. That's a culture.

clavdivs: I think what the Radical Republicans and LBJ shared was a sense that the South needed two or three generations' worth of political chemotherapy to get the cancer of slavery out of its system. Neither were able to achieve that.
posted by holgate at 8:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


Now I want to sup on Mount Pisgah.
posted by clavdivs at 8:57 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Look, I don't feel 100% on what I'm about to write. It's kind of unpleasant and possibly wrong. But I think that there's a certain number of people who are ... kind of stupid. Or incurious. Or simple. And the world has become an unforgiving place for them. They'll never have very good jobs, they'll never be like the families in commercials. And this makes them angry. And maybe they were also kind of angry to begin with.

There's a culture of angry to belong to. Yelling at wrestling, yelling at monster truck rallies, fighting in bars. The people who do much of the above are just not very smart, or they're smart but emotionally damaged.


This is a hell of a way to talk about people who grew up in small towns with no opportunities, working multiple minimum wage jobs just to get by, while jobs are harder to find than ever, corporations are cutting numbers and going lean however they can, tons of manufacturing jobs have been wiped out, the elites in Wall Street screwed them over and foreclosed their homes, etc.

It's tempting to think these people are just simple, but that's the same old blame-shifting classism. I find it ugly and incorrect, and it transmits loud and clear to people who could be on our side if we weren't so damn smug, dismissive, and condescending. There are complex, multi-threaded reasons for why poor rural whites are acting how they are, but those reasons are there for those who dig, and if we don't try to understand, we're in for a massive Brexit-style shock in November. It does no one any favors to lapse into Larry the Cable Guy stereotypes.
posted by naju at 9:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [31 favorites]


And if you just focus on Asheville itself? You aren't looking at Portland.

As I say to my PNW friends, Asheville is like a playable demo of Portland. And Portland oh my so my god very definitely has its anti-vaxxers and anti-fluoriders (but also legal weed).
posted by holgate at 9:01 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I hereby suspend Godwin's Law for the duration. You may call actual Nazis Nazis.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


to people who could be on our side if we weren't so damn smug, dismissive, and condescending.

However ugly the premise might seem, I'd like to think that was true, because then there'd be an path out, but I really don't. I think it's more "if we weren't so damn living somewhere else." There really is a lot of in-group / out-group stuff going on here -- think of how Steve Beshear had to call the KY Medicaid expansion Kynect because folks down in Clay County wouldn't have signed up for Obamacare -- and it's apparently easier to become part of the in-group by being a bullshitting TV blowhard than to say "hey, how about we get you on the path to power and jobs through solar just like we did with the TVA?"
posted by holgate at 9:16 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I find it hard to believe that vast numbers of white, culturally traditional Americans just happen to be simultaneously and spontaneously angry for no particular reason.

One of my religious brethren wrote an article about anger in which he mentioned, "Anger is a response to having your boundaries violated." Justified or not, a whole lot of people had personal and social boundaries that are no longer being honored - by the legal system, by the media, by their employers and communities - and they are angry. They may not even know why, because the boundaries haven't been socially acceptable to consciously acknowledge for many years.

I noticed several years ago that many Christians will claim they're being "oppressed," when what they're being required to do, is acknowledge that other religions exist. We're seeing that in gender politics as well: "oppression" means having to acknowledge that gender doesn't fit the binary system they are comfortable with. For most of the 20th century, many white people complained loudly that they were being "oppressed" by being required to accept that "people," with full legal rights, came in more than one color. That's mostly faded, so they're now complaining about being forced to acknowledge that communities are not required to be white - whether that's interracial couples in their sitcoms, or news showing communities of color as anything other than "lookit those exotic (and probably violent) freaks."

Find the boundary to find the source of the anger; make them talk about the boundary, because we can't get rid of the anger without dismantling those walls.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:20 PM on September 12, 2016 [36 favorites]


why poor rural whites are acting how they are

but poor rural whites aren't the base of his support.
posted by forza at 9:21 PM on September 12, 2016 [29 favorites]


I think we have a pretty good example of what an inclusive American culture looks like brought to us by my favorite wrestler*, John Cena.

*not a wrestling fan and yet I have a favorite wrestler, weird.
posted by VTX at 9:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


I ordered a sign pack and bumper sticker back on August 4th and still haven't received anything, not even a shipping notification. Is that weird?

Your mistake was sending a donation to the Clinton Campaign. Instead you should have sent your donation to the Clinton Foundation. The news media assure me that Hillary would have personally hand delivered your merchandise the next day.
posted by JackFlash at 9:23 PM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


but poor rural whites aren't the base of his support.

Exactly. I did want to mention how educated/middle-class whites are a key part of Trump's base, and are likely just as racist if not more. The stuff about "yelling at monster truck rallies" is clearly aiming at a particular demographic and I wanted to address them as a convenient scapegoat.
posted by naju at 9:28 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Many years ago, Randy Newman wrote a (NSFW) song about how racism is kind of everywhere and not just in the south.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Those middle-class voters are feeling economic strain too, by the way, a sense of things being much harder than they've ever been. They've seen their wealth diminish rapidly since 2008. They don't happen to see that the Wall Street crash also destroyed 53 percent of African-American wealth and 66 percent of Hispanic wealth. But this is not widely known in general for some reason.
posted by naju at 9:35 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Should we begin with the vast inequity concerning the Treaty of Redestriction.

Oh my what a dose of radiation those 1866 elections were. Well, yeah, the spectre of slaverly remained and remains but it's not just the south. Go forward to say Malcom X and his tremendous "the ballot or the bullet" speech, telling enough of the times and he gave that speech in Cleveland, 1964. The fucking cancer of racism spread. Almost a 100 years of democrat control and what, mini steps and offers of complacency.
As far as Johnsons understanding times curative effects I offer this story of Lyndon in his last years, post presidency. One day, a young man and his mother happen to be by the ranch and LBJ starts waving his arms in a windmill fashion and says to the young man. "Well, maybe someday all of us will be visiting your house in Waco, because you'll be president and your home will be a national museum". Lyndon then promptly and politely tells the mother to go home and clean the house "spic-and-span" in the event of that day.
Maybe he did believe what he said, ask Doris Kearns Goodwin, she witnessed the exchange.
For a better rage/displacement/ politics/racism example I suggest 1930s Louisiana.

Start with Huey Long.

You'll end up at a Clinton White House.
I still stand by my old Marxist prof who said reconstruction did more damage then the actual war.
posted by clavdivs at 9:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


racism is kind of everywhere yt and not just in the south.

But it's always easier to say "those people", for everyone.
posted by bongo_x at 9:36 PM on September 12, 2016


It's amusing how many more calls for nuance, mutual understanding and sympathy for Trump supporters one sees around here than we saw for Sanders supporters. Racist white men, sure, they've got a plight -- but those BoB-ers, that there's no excuse for!

More seriously, one of Clinton's most effective strategies was attacking Sanders via his supporters. It's interesting how that strategy does and doesn't work in the general.
posted by chortly at 9:37 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Has anyone linked to this yet?

stop the election please i would like to get off mr 2016's wild ride
posted by R.F.Simpson at 9:42 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


It remains to be seen how effective attacking Sanders' supporters was. It's still not one big happy party. I expect Democratic voter turnout to be low for just these reasons.
posted by naju at 9:42 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


naju, I get it. I really do. I've ached to find the bridge into rural cultures, I'm all different kinds of fascinated by small-town America and Appalachian culture, and I would feel really terrible about myself right now if I believe I had just told you that small towns are full of stupid people because the smart ones leave.

But that's not what I'm saying. Well, not completely. People leaving small towns because there's nothing for them there is a real thing, but the effect of it is not a straight 1:1 anything.

I also don't think that all pointed political rage is stupidity. Sometimes people are mad that their parts of the world don't matter, don't get basic services, get looked down on, get demolished by drugs and unemployment and no one seems to know what to do — and that rage takes many forms, from the uprising of the glorious proletariat to the KKK. But the rage comes from genuine grievances.

And unsophisticated does not equal stupid. Unwordly does not equal stupid. Uneducated is not the fault of the uneducated. Got it.

But stupid is a real thing, everywhere. I don't know what to do with this fact, but I think some people are born, or raised, not well-equipped to make sense of a complex world.

Look, my father taught freshman-level film classes at various colleges, and every year he taught students who not only had never figured out that actors don't just make up their lines, they continued, throughout the class, to be confused about the difference between the actor and what the character did. I remember my father's account of his patient dialogue with a student who swore Sylvester Stallone, a.k.a Rambo, really was an American hero, because of those things he did. This person not only never got the distinction, he never cared; it was my father who put all the energy into the point.

Now you might find someone with little education, who never left a small town, but was not confused on this point. Someone with a good intuition about how things worked, someone curious enough read and study on her own and think about how things get made. So the small town or rural or white or whatever is not the important thing.

But the Rambo-is-a-hero person will see Donald Trump as the guy who was strong on TV, and the guy who says we're going to win and keep bad people away. I don't care where the hell you're from, supporting Donald Trump because "you're fired" and "he tells it like it is" and "he's strong" is the mark of a person who is not very bright — is, in fact, deeply confused and doesn't think very well.

And for what it's worth, I brought up monster truck rallies because I went to a couple (yes, slumming with friends, and a little journalism), and watched people wait outside the back entrance, the service entrance where the trucks were rolled into the arena, to yell at the trucks they hated and try to throw trash at them. When the heel trucks rolled by people got red in the face screaming "fuck you" at them. Maybe it was all theater and I'm the one who was fooled, but they seemed genuinely pissed at those trucks. There was a lot of rage overall — fistfights and guys getting hauled out by security while neutral bystanders poured beer on them, anger at the "bad" trucks.

I feel uncomfortable at the identification of monster truck rallies with so-called "white trash," along with bars and wrestling and so on. But I swear I felt like the target audience reallywas confused, angry people. And that's who I think is showing up at Trump rallies and yelling and getting worked up: Confused, often stupid, angry people.

And all kinds of other layers of complexity overlap here, which is why I should probably keep my yap shut.
posted by argybarg at 9:43 PM on September 12, 2016 [30 favorites]


Miko& Holgate, apologies for sounding rather chewey and being that Bossons on the wall.
posted by clavdivs at 9:44 PM on September 12, 2016


The stuff about "yelling at monster truck rallies" is clearly aiming at a particular demographic

anecdata, but I did see someone bloviating on social media about driving his raised-up truck into town today to spew diesel smoke at the "wussy Prius-driving" protestors.

Clearly there's a substantial cohort of the middle class who are Trump-friendly -- including people who white-flighted themselves into the outer burbs "for the schools" and took on a wearying commute for their jobs -- but exactly what kind of conversation can you have there?
posted by holgate at 9:49 PM on September 12, 2016


Final edition. Why Miko, I thought history would provide some clue as to those who may have tried to change or try too, this cultural of dominant white males...hmm, pretty tall order historically. How about the countries first elected female senator (Hattie Caraway) did she try? Does her being first serve as a small victory to fight dominant behavior?

White, right. Well, we could use the post civil war elections of Republicans in southern states...but the Democratic Party ended that nonsense and now, LBJ seems to get the all the cred


Could you consider aiming to be slightly more lucid than the Oracle of Delphi in here?
posted by one_bean at 9:49 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


I'm seriously learning a lot about these weird divisions among Protestants in this thread. Growing up Catholic in a Catholic school there was just Catholic and Protestant (and other.) In everyday adult life in Texas, it feels like Southern Baptist (White or Black, those are usually in different churches), Other Christian, or Other (where Catholic falls somewhere right above Jewish but definitely not lumped in with the other Christians.)

The latest thing in my immediate area are "Cowboy Churches" where you go in your jeans and boots and according to one report they get up to the really freaky stuff like speaking in tongues.
posted by threeturtles at 9:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


(clav: don't ever feel the need to apologise. I might not end up agreeing with you but I'll always -- 15 years and counting of always -- take away something to think hard about.)
posted by holgate at 9:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Look, I don't feel 100% on what I'm about to write. It's kind of unpleasant and possibly wrong. But I think that there's a certain number of people who are ... kind of stupid. Or incurious. Or simple. And the world has become an unforgiving place for them. They'll never have very good jobs, they'll never be like the families in commercials. And this makes them angry. And maybe they were also kind of angry to begin with.

There's a culture of angry to belong to. Yelling at wrestling, yelling at monster truck rallies, fighting in bars. The people who do much of the above are just not very smart, or they're smart but emotionally damaged.


But here it sounds like you may have confused Steven Seagal movie characters with real people.
posted by zennie at 10:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Exactly. I did want to mention how educated/middle-class whites are a key part of Trump's base, and are likely just as racist if not more.

Doesn't surprise me one bit. There's been some talk in these threads about how education should make people less racist, or better at critical thinking. My experience has been that it can, but it's no guarantee.

A lot of people flip the other way: they use education to get a good job, so they can live comfortably in a little bubble where they are never challenged, never have to engage in uncomfortable social interactions and so on. Racism flourishes in those places. I lived in a suburb that was 99% white for some years. I used to joke that I was probably literally the only Middle Eastern guy there. (Never saw another.) I stopped talking to each and every person I knew there after their reactions to Ferguson. (It wasn't too far away, and the things they said were unforgivable... but while they'd all seen plenty of black people, I doubt they'd ever actually been friends with even the token One Black Friend.)

I bet there are Trump voters there, and I bet the ones who are believe that their income and privilege will protect them from whatever chaos he causes while he's busy doing a few things they want. It's easy to vote Evil if you don't think you'll get any on your shoes.
posted by mordax at 10:01 PM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


but poor rural whites aren't the base of his support.

This is very much my anecdotal experience. The right-wingers I know, either family/old friends scattered around the country, or the RWs living in my immediate neighborhood, are suburban middle class, college-educated and homeowners in many cases. Despite their white privilege they see themselves as victims, in a standoff against the encroaching bathroom-perverting/thugish black/US Msuslim jihadists.

Join me for a depressing family holiday sometime, or work with me in my precinct on election day if you'd like to hear the darkness. (Nothing like your nurse sister insisting all American Muslims are jihadists. Cos an expert at their Baptist church said so. Or her grandson, a college senior, declaring that the country works despite diversity, not because of it, and joining Drumpf in his mancrush on Putin. And we wont even get into the gun debates.)
posted by NorthernLite at 10:01 PM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Polling shows he is faring relatively poorly for a Republican amongst college-educated whites, actually.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:08 PM on September 12, 2016


But the Rambo-is-a-hero person will see Donald Trump as the guy who was strong on TV, and the guy who says we're going to win and keep bad people away. I don't care where the hell you're from, supporting Donald Trump because "you're fired" and "he tells it like it is" and "he's strong" is the mark of a person who is not very bright — is, in fact, deeply confused and doesn't think very well.

Two things about this:

1) People are not always able to articulate the deeper reasons why a candidate appeals to them. This is not limited to just conservatives. We're not always aware of the sociocultural forces moving us in certain directions.

2) When you talk about heroes, strength, and getting rid of the bad people, your conclusion is that people who think this way are not very bright. But you're hinting at the classic conservative, valuing loyalty, authority, obedience, social order, cohesiveness, etc. It's not being simple or confused, necessarily; I think you're just at a loss to explain a person who fundamentally thinks and reacts in different ways than you. Different from me, too. But wouldn't it be more insightful to say, even if this person can't articulate it himself, that fear, uncertainty, terrorism, economic collapse, social destabilization, diversity past a comfort zone, etc. have caused them to push back at a world they see as lacking in order, authority, obedience, and all those classic values they are basically hardwired culturally and psychologically to respond to? Just a thought. It makes more sense to me than assuming huge swaths of people I disagree with are not bright.
posted by naju at 10:15 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


(None of that gets us very far in figuring out how to convince people, if you can. So we're still in trouble if the goal is to change hearts and minds. But it at least gets us to a point where we're seeing other people's concerns a bit more clearly)
posted by naju at 10:31 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I expect Democratic voter turnout to be low for just these reasons.

I would take that bet. I expect it will be high among all demographics except 18-24 year olds.
posted by Justinian at 11:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


More seriously, one of Clinton's most effective strategies was attacking Sanders via his supporters. It's interesting how that strategy does and doesn't work in the general.

Once you have made every last person who wasn't behind you your enemy, there isn't much time and space left for rebuilding bridges. We'll have to see how that goes in November.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


I would take that bet. I expect it will be high among all demographics except 18-24 year olds.

I guess we can bookmark and revisit. A low millenial turnout could be disastrous. I'm amazed at the hubris of this thinking.
posted by naju at 11:16 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


>I would take that bet. I expect it will be high among all demographics except 18-24 year olds.

I guess we can bookmark and revisit. A low millenial turnout could be disastrous. I'm amazed at the hubris of this thinking.


Don't forget though that the early cohort of millennials (those born in early 80s) are now hitting their 30s... expecting depressed turnout amongst a certain political segment of the 18-24 demo is different than expecting depressed turnout for all millennials.

I also think that the "no turnout" segment of that demo will shrink notably if the race looks close come election day... I have precisely no data to back this up, but I just cannot imagine that the number of young progressive millennials willing to risk a Trump presidency rather than hold their noses and vote for Clinton is enormous.
posted by modernnomad at 11:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


BREAKING: US flies two nuclear-capable supersonic bombers over South Korea in show of force against the North after its nuclear test.

Continuing the press's current trends towards accuracy, the aircraft in question were B-1s, which (along with F-15C/Ds, F-22s, and A-10s) are one of the few combat aircraft currently in service with the US that are not nuclear-capable supersonic bombers. They had their nuclear capability stripped years and years ago.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:23 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


Yeah, thanks for explaining what millenials are, I'm aware :)
posted by naju at 11:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


argybarg: Maybe it was all theater and I'm the one who was fooled

For future reference, the term for what you were is a mark.
posted by roll truck roll at 11:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Could you consider aiming to be slightly more lucid than the Oracle of Delphi in here?

Thats a big request and I'm fresh out of Henbane.

I'm pointing out how Long comparisons to Trump are funny and reaching. Many people compared Long to Hitler in 1933. He hated that and called hitler a "sumbitch".
Ok, Huey didn't play the race game, he fought against the establishment.
Scared the piss out of FDR because well, imagine George Orwell is coming to the states and the first person he wants to see, Long. A German naval officer came to call, Huey kept him waiting and met him in a green robe. Man knew how to use the press, man invented the modern campaign.
Long canvassed for Caraway and most historians agree that without Longs help, she would have lost. What were Caraways political views?
Who followed Caraway.
Who did he mentor?
see, the trick is in perception. Long redefined the rules of politics when he decided to defend someone accused of espionage and attacked the prosecution, something rarely done and won. He name branded himself, re-wrote the rules and went on the offensive. The big three of modern politics.
Both candadites are using that same playbook. Look at this thread for your proof, people would vote for a ham sandwich before trump. (I'm voting ergot rye)
Huey had the same blind support from people and not the ones he bought or bullied.
I guess the trick is not who is blind or why, it's weither they do anything to assure thier candidates win and if that anything is worth it.
Most of know the answer to that.
posted by clavdivs at 11:33 PM on September 12, 2016


Ergot rye...like free gratis.
posted by clavdivs at 11:35 PM on September 12, 2016


From the HillaryClinton.com blog:
Donald Trump, Pepe the frog, and white supremacists: an explainer
posted by p3t3 at 11:37 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I guess we can bookmark and revisit. A low millenial turnout could be disastrous. I'm amazed at the hubris of this thinking.

A low millennial turnout could be disastrous. So could a low African American turnout. Or a low Latino turnout. Or a low college-educated white woman turnout. I don't see what hubris has to do with any of that though.

If you think I meant I don't care about possibly low turnout (or possibly high third-party voting) among millennials; no, I care. I just think that it will likely be made up for among college educated white voters and other groups. Generally speaking its very hard to excite all parts of the electorate equally. Obama couldn't do it, Sanders couldn't do it, and Clinton can't do it.
posted by Justinian at 11:59 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


To put it another way, Clinton and Obama's coalitions are very similar with the exception that Clinton substitutes support among college educated white women for white 18-24 year olds.
posted by Justinian at 12:01 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


I guess the trick is not who is blind or why, it's weither they do anything to assure thier candidates win and if that anything is worth it.
Most of know the answer to that.


Ok so I guess I'll take that as a no.
posted by one_bean at 12:02 AM on September 13, 2016


I just think that it will likely be made up for among college educated white voters and other groups.

Well, this is what I meant by hubris. I think it's folly to assume this (OK, you're not assuming, you're thinking). Let's hope you're right.
posted by naju at 12:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Also this - "Generally speaking its very hard to excite all parts of the electorate equally" - is doubtless true, but I'm not sure alienating many young pro-Sanders progressives so thoroughly was very smart as far as these things go. Anyway, this ship has sailed, don't mean to get into it too deeply.
posted by naju at 12:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Is that what being "conservative" is, valuing the past--"tradition"--over all else? I mean, I'm all for people being into their group's culture, especially if they are oppressed and find strength there. But if your "culture" is just a toxic soup of lies, racism, and shit, and you worry about losing that? I have no words.
posted by maxwelton at 12:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Also this - "Generally speaking its very hard to excite all parts of the electorate equally" - is doubtless true, but I'm not sure alienating many young pro-Sanders progressives so thoroughly was very smart as far as these things go. Anyway, this ship has sailed, don't mean to get into it too deeply.

I've yet to work out (from the UK) exactly what Clinton is supposed to have done that alienated the pro-Sanders progressives other than refused to give the nomination to Sanders after having won by over three million votes.
posted by Francis at 12:56 AM on September 13, 2016 [62 favorites]


A low millenial turnout could be disastrous

In 2012, 20 million 18-29 year olds voted. There were 36 million non-white voters. There are an estimated 5 million more Latino voters eligible this year than in 2012. 78% of Latino voters are equally or more excited to vote this year than in 2012.
posted by one_bean at 1:01 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Her, her camp, pro-Clinton pundits, supporters - I can think of a few things that alienated a few people, between these groups. She's not responsible for all of their actions, of course. Sanders is not responsible for the actions of his people either, and he deserves some blame for what went down. I think it's fair to say things went a little off-kilter. The reality we have is that many feel alienated; you can argue about whether that could've been prevented, but I think it's unfortunate and a lighter touch all around would have benefited the general election more.
posted by naju at 1:03 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Obama won 18-29 year olds by 23 points; he won Latinos by 44. Clinton is going to win the general the same way she won the primary - with overwhelming support from non-white voters.
posted by one_bean at 1:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


overwhelming support from non-white voters.

Interesting NPR article - For Some Black Voters, 'Not Trump' Is The Number One Reason To Support Clinton
So far, she has a major advantage. Polls show Clinton consistently capturing upwards of 90 percent of support from African-Americans nationally. (Donald Trump is polling in the low single digits; as NPR's Sam Sanders has reported, his recent outreach to black voters is falling flat).

So it's not a question of how African-Americans vote. It is, though, a question of how many.
...
"Where I hoped we would be after eight years of Obama is not here," said Ewell-Lewis, 51, at a coffee shop in Chapel Hill. "I didn't think we would be looking at a Trump presidency."

She says she'll vote for Clinton in November.

"And, the reason why — well, she's not Trump," Ewell-Lewis said with a laugh. "She's not Donald Trump."

Ewell-Lewis respects Clinton and thinks she is smart and capable, but she says she's not as enthusiastic about her as she was for Obama. And she is concerned other black voters might feel the same.

"It wasn't just the policies that got them to come out; it was whether they trusted the candidate to understand their issues, to be committed and dedicated to their community, and I just don't know if that trust has really been established [with Clinton]," she said.

I'm not in love with her like I was — I used to say Obama's like my Michael Jackson when I was growing up — I was in love with him like crazy, like that with posters on my wall, sitting there staring at him.

Ewell-Lewis points to some of Clinton's mistakes with black voters in the South Carolina primary in 2008. She says some young voters — like her daughter — still have questions about Clinton's integrity.

"I think she's had missteps there with the Black Lives Matter movement," said Ewell-Lewis. "And she's had missteps there that have been noted by young people."

Still, Ewell-Lewis says she'll be volunteering for Clinton because she is so terrified of the alternative.

Her husband, Ken Lewis, says he'll be voting for Clinton too; but he questions whether "not Trump" is enough of a motivator — especially for black voters suffering from high unemployment or harsh policing.

"I think 'not Trump' is not a sufficient rationale for getting people to vote who may be losing faith in the political process, frankly," said Lewis, a lawyer who went to Harvard Law School with Michelle Obama.

Holly and Ken were dedicated Obama volunteers. They even drove their kids to South Carolina to knock on doors as a family during the 2008 primaries. This November, Lewis isn't feeling the same kind of drive.

"I think Hillary Clinton has really struggled to articulate how her election would represent a kind of progress that would be meaningful in African-American communities," he said.
It goes on like that... anecdotally it reads as a pretty accurate reflection of what I've been seeing.

All this aside, where does this absolute confidence in winning come from, I wonder? I'm seeing it so much, and it makes me very nervous on a visceral level. There are polls, but taking them with a grain of salt and hitting the pavement hard seems wise.
posted by naju at 1:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


The Pepe The Frog Explainer Simplified:
"Let me get this straight: Trump’s presidential campaign is posting memes associated with white supremacy online?"

"Yes."

[...]

"This is horrifying."

"Yes."

"What can I do?"

"Vote."
posted by mikelieman at 1:25 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


So reports from my friend's FB page, where she baited a couple of Trump supporters into explaining why they are declaring themselves deplorables.

And someone finally gave a real answer, which is that people don't like being called racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic every time they speak their opinion. And they feel like their opinions didn't use to be wrong and now they are. (Though it was phrased differently. He thinks everyone calling them "names" is wrong.) So "reclaiming" this word deplorable is supposed to, I think, point out how ridiculous all this labeling of sexism and racism etc is.

At which I pretty much just want to scream HAVE YOU LISTENED TO TRUMP? How can you listen to Trump without thinking that he's definitely ACTUALLY RACIST AND SEXIST AND XENOPHOBIC. I mean, honestly, if the problem is people just can't identify that what Trump is selling is actually xenophobia and racism....then I don't know. Like, you really have to want to give him every excuse and chance in the book to excuse his bullshit that way.

If I were being less charitable I'd characterize this guys comments as "look, I just want to dislike women and black people (for bullshit stereotypical reasons) and not get called sexist and racist for it, ok?"
posted by threeturtles at 1:29 AM on September 13, 2016 [32 favorites]


(Also 100% anecdotally, and thus admittedly fairly useless - I haven't polled anyone, but among my friends/associates whites have been the most enthusiastically pro-Clinton and also the most confident of her win; non-whites have been noticeably muted in comparison. I don't think any in my circles have acted that way, actually, and more than a few have been guarded and critical of her. I think there's a potential assumption to be made that since white people have seen horrifying racism come from Trump and his supporters, they must assume that non-white voters are going to turn out en masse. I don't think that's an assumption that is necessarily safe to make, polls notwithstanding)
posted by naju at 1:43 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


All this aside, where does this absolute confidence in winning come from, I wonder?

Well let's see on the one hand all of the poll aggregators have had Clinton winning for about a year (except for a few aggregators a few days after the RNC), and the most accurate aggregator from 2008 and 2012 has her at 90%, and the two states she needs to put her over 270 (Pennsylvania and Wisconsin) haven't voted Republican in at least 28 years and have shown Clinton leading in 99% and 100% of the polls, respectively, and the national demographics are, per my last comments, even more favorable for Democrats than they were four years ago; but on the other hand NPR found a black Clinton volunteer in South Carolina who doesn't love Clinton as much as she loves Obama which, anecdotally, fits what naju is seeing. Oh and some young pro-Bernie progressives were thoroughly alienated - not by Trump's racism and bigotry but by Clinton's primary campaign not having a light enough touch.
posted by one_bean at 1:43 AM on September 13, 2016 [41 favorites]


Not today's news, but the article just went on and on:
USA TODAY exclusive: Hundreds allege Donald Trump doesn’t pay his bills, by Steve Reilly, June 9, 2016

I think the worst bit was
Despite the Trumps’ assertion that their companies only refuse payment to contractors “when somebody does a bad job,” he has sometimes offered to hire those same contractors again. It’s a puzzling turn of events, since most people who have a poor experience with a contractor, and who refuse to pay and even fight the contractor in court, aren’t likely to offer to rehire them.

Nevertheless, such was the case for the Friels. After submitting the final bill for the Plaza casino cabinet-building in 1984, Paul Friel said he got a call asking that his father, Edward, come to the Trump family’s offices at the casino for a meeting. There Edward, and some other contractors, were called in one by one to meet with Donald Trump and his brother, Robert Trump.

“He sat in a room with nine guys,” Paul Friel said. “We found out some of them were carpet guys. Some of them were glass guys. Plumbers. You name it.”

In the meeting, Donald Trump told his father that the company’s work was inferior, Friel said, even though the general contractor on the casino had approved it. The bottom line, Trump told Edward Friel, was the company wouldn't get the final payment. Then, Friel said Trump added something that struck the family as bizarre. Trump told his dad that he could work on other Trump projects in the future.

“We have hundreds of millions of dollars of construction projects underway. And we have, for the most part, exceptional contractors on them who get paid, and get paid quickly. But it would be irresponsible if my father paid contractors who did lousy work. And he doesn’t do that.”
Ivanka Trump, Executive Vice President of The Trump Organization

“Wait a minute,” Paul Friel said, recalling his family's reaction to his dad’s account of the meeting. “Why would the Trump family want a company who they say their work is inferior to work for them in the future?”


I'd only really thought about the undocumented Polish workers he had stiffed for doing demolition work on Trump Tower including unprotected stuff with asbsestos.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:59 AM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


Oh and some young pro-Bernie progressives were thoroughly alienated - not by Trump's racism and bigotry but by Clinton's primary campaign not having a light enough touch.

My reading is that it was quite the reverse. pro-Bernie progressives were alienated not by Clinton's primary campaign not having a light enough touch, but by Clinton's primary campaign not dispelling the myths that Bernie Sanders built up around himself. By letting the person who has been in DC for 25 years claim he was an outsider without pushback. By letting the former Chair of the Senate Committee on Veterans Affairs and the Minority Leader on the Senate Budget Committee appear to be this outsider knight in shining armour. So because Clinton was only lobbing softballs at Bernie they think that their candidate is spotless and, despite all the evidence to the contrary, an outsider.
posted by Francis at 2:22 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Here are the polls I'm seeing, which look good for Clinton but don't seem like an absolute blowout (I'm not very well-versed though).

Reuters - "Polling aggregators, which calculate averages of major polls, have shown that Clinton’s lead has been shrinking for the past few weeks. Those averages put her advantage over Trump at between three and six percentage points. Some of the more recent individual polls, however, have the race even tighter."

NYT Latest Election Poll - Clinton, 43%, Trump, 41% in a polling average. Upshot: 79% chance of winning. "A victory by Mr. Trump remains quite possible: Mrs. Clinton’s chance of losing is about the same as the probability that an N.F.L. kicker misses a 45-yard field goal."

FiveThirtyEight: Clinton has a 69.8 chance of winning

I'm seeing a +2 lead reported in most places currently, including RealClearPolitics. This all looks pretty good, but +2 doesn't seem like a margin that should lead anyone to be extremely confident, and I think there are a lot of unpredictable variables that could come into play.

I distrust polling methodologies somewhat and I think some of those concerns could come into play in this election. There are also, I have zero doubt, several Republican plans for voter disenfranchisement particularly for non-white voters.

None of this is my expertise so please break it down for me or provide a link that will educate if that's what's needed. What I have a problem with is not a sense she has a good chance of winning; I do share that. it's an absolute hubristic confidence, which I see zero use for ideologically or practically.
posted by naju at 2:32 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm less worried about Clinton winning than I am about vote splitting keeping congress controlled by Republicans.
posted by PenDevil at 2:37 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


So, that one's a dud – nothing's being "lost" except the privilege to blithely treat one's own culture as normal and proper (and as the only culture that's normal and proper), and to act without thought or consideration for others.

That's the whole thing. The discussion of lost culture is a misconstrual. What is being lost is privilege, and even folks who would shoot you rather than admit to privilege recognize that. This is why it's not only difficult, but actually counter-productive to entertain a discussion about White people being upset about losing their "culture." There's no way to have the conversation that isn't papering over the very specific racial politics inherent in the complaint. There is no way to be empathetic to the loss that does not pretend that what is at issue is something other than unearned privilege.

This makes it all a very tough problem. People are unlikely to accept a "get over it, racist" response, but that's exactly what they deserve. What you get instead is deep seated and seething racist resentment. Unfortunately, a better person than me is going to have to figure out what to do about that. I have such low tolerance for whining from people about the racist or sexist privilege they have lost that I am not good for anything except pointing to the racists. This isn't some sort of humble brag, I think there has to be a way to talk about it without alienating people, or you end up with Michael Douglas "Falling Down" level bullshit. And the people who feel this the most are armed.

You know, in a certain way this is like a mirror of the abortion issue. It's clear that some people think that abortion is so horrific that they cannot conceive of any morality that admits to the procedure. Other people feel like those people should butt the hell out of women's lives. These two groups are not speaking remotely the same language, and it's hard for me to see how they ever would be. They start from radically different premises. I feel the same way about the "loss of culture [sic]" Whites. They are starting from premises that I not only disagree with, but find odious and insupportable. I literally don't give a fuck about those people except in some very abstract, I don't want a vengeful God I don't believe in to wipe them from the Earth. But I don't think that's all that helpful.

I know about the truth and reconciliation commissions, but I have never understood them.
posted by OmieWise at 3:12 AM on September 13, 2016 [26 favorites]


And if you just focus on Asheville itself? You aren't looking at Portland. It's a lot closer to say, Sedona maybe? It has the trappings of a liberal hippy granola town, but with a streak of anti-intellectual fear-mongering conspiracy-theory tinfoil hatting buffoonery about as wide as the town itself. This is a town where "honest, caring liberals" will tell you (and constantly tell me, damn Facebook) that 9/11 was an inside job, vaccines cause autism, chemtrails are real, blah blah blah. A metric FUCKTON of Asheville "liberals" may dislike Trump, but they are also densely Bernie or Busters. The young liberal millennials that live there want reproductive rights (as long as they don't have to vaccinate the kids they choose to have) and want to save the environment (as long as the Government takes the goddamn fluoride out of the water) and so on and so on. Almost all of my feed is clogged with Asheville men and women that HATE Sec. Clinton.

Having just spent 8 years in Portland, Asheville sounds just like Portland.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 4:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Well, NPR sure did itself proud in its 7 a.m. news summary just now. It reported that Trump was criticizing Clinton over the "basket of deplorables" remark, and played an audio clip of Trump using the line he's been using that hateful Hillary disparaged hard working people.

Of course, Clinton made clear that she was referring to the racist, sexist so-called "alt right" and their loathsome allies, and went out of her way to emphasize that she was not talking about disillusioned working class people. NPR probably knows this. And yet they let Trump lie to its listeners absolutely unchallenged, without putting his falsehood in any kind of context.

Memo to NPR: If maintaining a sense of balance leads you to broadcast lies, you're doing it wrong.
posted by Gelatin at 4:18 AM on September 13, 2016 [30 favorites]


BREAKING: US flies two nuclear-capable supersonic bombers over South Korea in show of force against the North after its nuclear test.

Iranian rude gestures : ships shot out of the water :: North Korean nuclear test : ?!?
posted by kirkaracha at 4:26 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]






The brilliance of Hillary Clinton's 'deplorables':
...a few days later, the brilliance of Clinton's remark is becoming clearer. Yes, she got a few liberal commentators to take her side and defend the substance of it. But the far bigger benefit is that in the wake of her comment, some media figures decided to devise a "deplorables" quiz for Trump supporters. Is Person X deplorable? How about Person Y? The effect was to pressure Trump supporters not only to agree with Clinton's larger point but with her precise terminology.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:56 AM on September 13, 2016 [40 favorites]


Wait, so the reason that Pence won't call David Duke deplorable is that the Trump campaign doesn't want to resort to name-calling????

Scarcely a day after Trump gives an interview in which he called Elizabeth Warren "Pocahontas," to say nothing of all the other name-calling that's his very stock in trade.

The very lameness of that excuse just reveals how much open appeals to racism, sexism and other --isms are vital to Trump's campaign.

In other words, Pence just proved Clinton right.
posted by Gelatin at 5:21 AM on September 13, 2016 [25 favorites]


Pepe the frog wasn't always a racist symbol. He was a goofy reaction image that my kids would share with me. I even made a rare one for my son. It's scary how quickly the alt right were able to co-opt the image for their own nefarious interests. What else could they do that to?
posted by Biblio at 5:22 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Politico: Progressives draft staff blacklist for Clinton administration
Left-wing groups warn the Democratic nominee not to appoint Wall Street-linked Lael Brainard or Tom Nides to senior finance and economic jobs.

Aides to Sen. Elizabeth Warren have been meeting regularly with Clinton’s campaign policy advisers. Members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus are beginning to plan how they would lobby her White House on legislation. Activists are at the early stages of thinking through what community protests and digital organizing would look like to pressure a new Democratic president whom they’ve only ever grudgingly accepted.

Clinton, meanwhile, continues to take note of who is being active for her on the campaign and how, said a Democrat close to her, offering a little advice: if you want to have an impact in February, it helps to show up big in October.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:23 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


Nate Silver gives GOP donors a closed-door presentation
Donors who participated in Silver's session besides Singer and Todd Ricketts included Ron Weiser, finance vice chairman of the Trump campaign; Betsy DeVos, a Michigan-based billionaire from one of the country's most powerful political families; Joe Craft, a Kentucky coal magnate and major Trump booster; and New York investor Cliff Asness.
Gross, Nate.
posted by sallybrown at 5:27 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


About Trump calling Warren "Pocohontas": I have zero idea what the context of this is, or was supposed to be, and since Trump is the Word Salad Shooter it pretty much wouldn't matter. That said, It's difficult to name women tougher and gutsiest than Elizabeth Warren--but Pocohontas, the historical figure, would be one of them. When I read that comparison, I'm like, wow, that's one hell of a compliment to Warren!
posted by Sublimity at 5:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


If I were being less charitable I'd characterize this guys comments as "look, I just want to dislike women and black people (for bullshit stereotypical reasons) and not get called sexist and racist for it, ok?"

I think this is pretty much the whole deal, honestly. It's not being a bigot that upsets them. They're a-ok with being bigots. It's anyone calling them bigots.
posted by winna at 5:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


If I were being less charitable I'd characterize this guys comments as "look, I just want to dislike women and black people (for bullshit stereotypical reasons) and not get called sexist and racist for it, ok?"

I guess I'm less charitable. I characterize most Trump supporters as being upset that they aren't allowed to be shitty to as many people as they used to. Hence the "concern" over bathrooms and cakes, which is bizzare unless you factor in the need to be shitty to someone.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:31 AM on September 13, 2016 [29 favorites]


Nate Silver gives GOP donors a closed-door presentation

Gross, Nate.

I don't think this is exactly "burn the traitor" territory. Nate Silver gets a paycheck for explaining his election modeling? Can you believe he lets anyone listen to his podcast and not just registered democrats?
posted by dis_integration at 5:34 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


Attendees said his insights were valuable, though they involved no information that wasn’t already on his website in one form or another.

....

Attendees noted to The Hill that Silver gave them no advice on strategy.

While I agree with the usual critique that Silver and 538 have gone kinda horse-race clickbait pundit-y, I'm not especially bothered by the fact that he talked to some jerks and then cashed their check.
posted by box at 5:35 AM on September 13, 2016 [26 favorites]


Alcoholic angry fathers are who his base is driven by. More than "fear of losing white privilege" although that does seem to be a pre-requisite.

Pointing out the deplorableness of racism, etc, may swing voters, but where Mr.-Trump-voter really lives is in the toxic netherworld of having an alcoholic father.

It's not an either/or, it's a fundamental of it.
posted by petebest at 5:37 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


While I agree with the usual critique that Silver and 538 have gone kinda horse-race clickbait pundit-y, I'm not especially bothered that he talked to some jerks and then cashed their check.

For all we know he just conspicuously counted the money they paid him while intoning, "You guys are fuuuuucked."
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:37 AM on September 13, 2016 [28 favorites]


NYTimes: Candidate Gaffes Are Overrated; Health Concerns Could Influence Voters More
However, a modern precedent does exist for serious concerns about a candidate’s age and health. Ronald Reagan’s meandering closing statement in the first presidential debate during the 1984 campaign was widely perceived to have harmed him; one study estimated that the debate cost him about three percentage points in the polls. But Mr. Reagan made up this ground with a stronger performance during the second debate and went on to win re-election in a landslide over Walter Mondale.

For Mrs. Clinton, then, the goal is to quickly reassure voters, as Mr. Reagan appeared to do back in 1984, that she is in good health. If she does, the long-term consequences of her health episode are likely to be limited (though rumors and conspiracy theories will probably continue to circulate despite her campaign’s promise to release more medical information). But the lack of recent precedent for a more serious illness to a candidate means we cannot be confident about what effect it would have on voters.
So Reagan's meandering statement was "widely perceived to harm him" which means there was a dip in the polls followed by an upturn to previous levels. Doesn't sound like it harmed him at all in the long run. Plus you can't really compare meandering statements making Reagan sound like a doddering old fool with a swoon from overheating. Clinton will be fine and this bit of health concern will be a mere blip.


I have zero idea what the context of this is, or was supposed to be, and since Trump is the Word Salad Shooter it pretty much wouldn't matter. That said, It's difficult to name women tougher and gutsiest than Elizabeth Warren--but Pocohontas, the historical figure, would be one of them

It's quite a bit more racist than you realize. Trump proclaimed her Pocahontas over her claims to be part Native-American. He wanted to mock this claim but could not come up with another Native-American female name other than Pocahontas. If asked, I doubt he knows anything about the historical Pocahontas.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:38 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


I hope whoever did that Post cover has an experience soon where he realizes that he is perhaps irredeemably awful and goes to his bed and cries and cries and cries like a little baby, pleading with the universe for a sign that he is good, that his life is worthwhile in some way, and the universe is like *silence*
posted by angrycat at 5:38 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


I was out with my senior-citizen dad yesterday and he got to talking politics with an acquaintance. The devolution of the conversation passed through "this is the worst election I've ever seen, can't stand either of them," took a turn into "now they're looking for someone to replace Hillary," and had me shaking my head at "it's funny how anyone who talks bad about Hillary winds up dead."

I still argue politics with him because he's a Potentially Recoverable Old Person. He can't stand Trump either, correctly identified the parade of Republican primary candidates as a clown car of yahoos, and doesn't watch Fox News because he doesn't have cable. My job is to provide deprogramming from the FWD: FWD: FWD: FWD: email chains and the Facebook rants to which he subjects himself.

My mother? She still thinks Sarah Palin was the asset on the McCain ticket and that she'll be a wonderful President someday. She is a Visit On Holidays And Have An Escape Route Handy Old Person.
posted by delfin at 5:40 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


On Pocahontas. There was a minor shitstorm a while back when it emerged that Warren had claimed some American Indian heritage based on family history, but little or no documentation, with some folks on the right claiming she had lied about this to gain some career advancement via racial set asides. So it's an affirmative action dog whistle dressed in patronising sexism, along with Trump calling Warren a liar. A trifecta.
posted by notyou at 5:40 AM on September 13, 2016 [30 favorites]


Pocahontas is not original to Trump, but had been a name the GOP has used for Warren since she was running against Scott Brown.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:41 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


> Donald Trump, Pepe the frog, and white supremacists: an explainer

From the article:
“We basically mixed Pepe in with Nazi propaganda, etc. We built that association,” one prominent white supremacist told the Daily Beast.
I feel like there's an interesting (probably coincidental?) link that goes back a bit farther. I was just at this exhibit at the Art Institute (which, if you're in Chicago & haven't seen it yet, you should before it closes on Sunday) and they had on loan from MoMA Peter Blume's (1937) The Eternal City, which looks like this [jpg, 1280x905, 360KB].

In The Eternal City, Blume depicts Mussolini as a garish green jack-in-the-box springing out over a nightmarish scene taking place amongst Roman ruins. It was quite controversial at the time, and its banning from the 1939 Corcoran Biennial led to even more controversy -- banning an anti-fascist painting had its own fascist overtones.

Anyway, look at that and tell me if it isn't reminiscent of Pepe....

In the exhibition catalogue, Sarah L Burn's (2016) article Death, Decay, and Dystopia: Painting the American Wasteland in the 1930s explains [emphasis mine]:
Blume based his caricature of Mussolini on a colossal papier mache effigy he had seen at the Decennial Exposition celebrating the tenth anniversary of the 1922 Fascist March on Rome. The colors were intrinsic to the meaning: "I made the red lips clash with the green of the head," he explained. The combination had to be "strident and like nothing else in the picture: antithesis, dissonance."
I can't help but notice the similarities between the surrealistic antifascist The Eternal City and the surreal protofascist The Deplorables. Background of destruction? Check. Bizarre juxtaposition of the cartoonish with the real? Check. Lurid green head with clashing lips as a symbol of white supremacy? Check. And even though I know it's a reach, I like to imagine that whoever pushed the Pepe meme at the alt-right is trolling them with the resemblance to Blume's critical caricature, getting the alt-right to unwittingly satirize themselves.

In Death, Decay, and Dystopia: Painting the American Wasteland in the 1930s, Burns remarks on the exclusion from the Corcoran Biennial: "The Eternal City does not warn explicitly of Fascism as a force with the potential to destroy the American republic. Still, it seems to have struck a nerve close to home." She then goes on to juxtapose [img; page on google books] it against Sinclair Lewis' It Can't Happen Here, which had become a best-seller while Blume was working on The Eternal City, quoting Lewis' journalist Doremus' dire predictions of what would happen if the dictatorial Senator Buzz Windrip were to defeat FDR: "People will think they're electing him to create more economic security. Then watch the Terror! God knows there's been enough indication that we can have tyranny in America---"

*Sigh.*
posted by Westringia F. at 5:44 AM on September 13, 2016 [32 favorites]


a name the GOP has used for Warren since she was running against Scott Brown.

Which worked out great for him.
posted by chris24 at 5:45 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


WaPo; Donald Trump, joined by Ivanka Trump, to outline child care policy
A campaign memo shared early Tuesday with The Washington Post shows that Trump’s plan “will rewrite the tax code to allow working parents to deduct from their income taxes child-care expenses for up to four children and elderly dependents.”

That deduction would be capped at the “average cost of care” in the state of residence, and it would not be available to individuals earning more than $250,000 or a couple earning more than $500,000.[...]

Also included in Tuesday’s speech: additional spending rebates through the Earned Income Tax Credit, expanded deduction opportunities for stay-at-home parents, and revised federal savings accounts to set aside funds for child development and educational needs.

Another policy proposal will be guaranteeing “six weeks of paid maternity leave” through an amendment of current unemployment insurance policies.
This is the dangerous Trump-- serious policy and Ivanka sitting at his side to make sure he doesn't go off message.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:45 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Kyle Griffin: Fox hosts say Dr. Oz told them HE will see Trump's medical records before Trump & will reveal them to Trump on air


They are claiming that a different doctor, not the fool who wrote the note, is examining him now and those doctor's notes will be turned over to Dr. Oz. Dr. Oz will then analyze the notes and announce the results which will be "a surprise to Donald Trump.

New Game Show idea? Will Dr. Oz become part of Trump Broadcasting? And why do I get the feeling that there will be nothing to announce other than a bit of extra weight? No doubt Dr. Oz will proclaim him to be the healthiest 70 year old he has ever seen in his life. It is ludicrous that Trump's campaign believes a TV Doctor's testimony is as good as thorough Medical Records released to the public.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Why? Everything ELSE in Trump's campaign is built on How Trump Looks On TV >> All Other Considerations, and it's gotten him this far.
posted by delfin at 5:56 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Also free ice cream for all children under 8 every day during summer and a brand new USA bowling ball for all men on their birthday. Plus everyone gets a new pair of Air Jordans. And free maid service! Plus the stars on the flag will be made classy as it deserves by making them 21k gold.

A Trump Presidency will be rainbows and lollipops.
posted by petebest at 5:58 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'll be the happiest person on earth if Dr. Oz tells Trump he has 3 Stooges Syndrome.
posted by mmoncur at 5:59 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Dr. Oz will then analyze the notes and announce the results which will be "a surprise to Donald Trump.

"You are the father... of a racist, misogynist, isolationist faux-populist movement."
posted by Etrigan at 5:59 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


Oh Lord, we're going to get a week of "Why won't Hillary go on Dr. Oz?" aren't we.
posted by mmoncur at 6:01 AM on September 13, 2016 [17 favorites]





And now I'm sitting here contemplating the popularity and perceived 'authority' of Dr. Oz. Is it likely to override some people's negative perception of Trump? Is he big enough to do that? Or will it backfire on Oz short and long term with more people who will wonder what in the hell he's doing with Trump?

At least Oz has made it pretty clear that he's okay with the guy which doesn't say much about his character. Not that he was some great guy before or anything. But now he said to the world, hey I'm okay with the basket. Ugh
posted by Jalliah at 6:09 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton has a video/ad out responding to Trump's attack on deplorables. And it crushes him.
posted by chris24 at 6:12 AM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


And now I'm sitting here contemplating the popularity and perceived 'authority' of Dr. Oz

Dr Oz (BA Harvard, MD Penn, tenured at Columbia) is like a walking one-man demonstration that the ivy league ain't all that.
posted by dis_integration at 6:14 AM on September 13, 2016 [32 favorites]


Sopan Deb: Trump aide says 6 weeks of guaranteed paid maternity leave will be paid for by eliminating fraud in unemployment insurance.
posted by PenDevil at 6:16 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Could you consider aiming to be slightly more lucid than the Oracle of Delphi in here?

Why start now?
posted by Greg Nog at 6:22 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Eliminating fraud! Of course - it's so simple, I don't know why anyone didn't see that sooner!

(Trump and the Trumplings will be exempt, right? Because, to be honest, they've had some . . scrapes.)
posted by petebest at 6:24 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


And now I'm sitting here contemplating the popularity and perceived 'authority' of Dr. Oz
It depends on who is doing the perceiving. Anyone who reads or watches CNN has seen stories about his being sued for selling snake oil, for being the target of a petition by about 2,000 doctors to have his privileges as a cardiothoracic surgeon revoked, his disastrous testimony on Capitol Hill, etc. etc. etc. But his show gets decent ratings and has been renewed through 2019. Since his show is partnered with Fox, there is probably not too much concern about the fact that he is extraordinarily unethical and looked upon with disdain by thousands of medical professionals.
posted by xyzzy at 6:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


And now I'm sitting here contemplating the popularity and perceived 'authority' of Dr. Oz

Hazarding a total guess, anyone who might be suckered in by his "expert advice" was either already voting for Trump, or hates Dr. Oz and isn't going to be swayed. I don't see Oz pulling any undecideds over.
posted by Twain Device at 6:33 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


anyone who might be suckered in by his "expert advice" was either already voting for Trump, or hates Dr. Oz and isn't going to be swayed. I don't see Oz pulling any undecideds over.

I don't know. He was in Oprah magazine and on her TV network for a while. She dumped him for his BS, but I think he picked up a lot of fuzzy-thinking adherents who might otherwise be Clinton-sympathetic.

But on the other hand, this is just today's sideshow and it probably won't influence many people one way or the other. I'm kind of feeling like a lot of the "undecideds," who are so ignorant about how politics works anyway, are more and more just going to elect to sit this one out.
posted by Miko at 6:41 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Thanks xyzzy and Twain Device,

Last time I can recall anything about him beyond just knowing he has a show is back when he seemed super popular on Oprah and got his own show because of it. Didn't know the extent of what has happened since then. I see that Oprah dropped him in 2015 as well.
posted by Jalliah at 6:42 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]




Trump aide says 6 weeks of guaranteed paid maternity leave will be paid for by eliminating fraud in unemployment insurance.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:43 AM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


I don't know if I've seen it said anywhere, but a simple and straightforward solution to the whole healthgazi thing, the question being whether it actually indicates she has "less stamina" that the supposed "most fit person to ever run for President", would be for Trump to voluntarily be infected with pneumonia, and we can see whether or not he suddenly becomes so exhausted that he starts constantly saying and doing completely injudicious things.

I mean he says he can walk on fire, so let's see him walk on fire like she was doing all last week...
posted by XMLicious at 6:50 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


Eliminating fraud! Of course - it's so simple, I don't know why anyone didn't see that sooner!

Conservative mythology always posits that there are billions of dollars of fraud and waste just sitting there waiting to be mined although they can't actually tell you specifically what they would actually do to save all that money.
posted by octothorpe at 6:52 AM on September 13, 2016 [24 favorites]


White House Woman Want to Be in the Room Where It Happens:
As late as the Eisenhower administration, the only women working in the West Wing were secretaries – and they were barred from dining with men in the White House mess.

. . .

Anne Wexler, who served as Jimmy Carter’s assistant for public outreach, complained that chief of staff Hamilton Jordan never invited her to a key daily meeting where aides offered ideas to the president, even though Jordan publicly described Wexler as “the most competent woman in Democratic politics.” “Personally, I never spent a great deal of time with the president,” Wexler said in a 1980 interview for Carter’s presidential library. “I think that was a mistake on [Carter’s] part.”

. . .

After Bush was elected in 2000, longtime aide Karen Hughes said she recoiled when incoming chief of staff Andy Card tried to establish a 24-7 work schedule. Hughes said she called Bush and told him that she didn’t “have to be there at 10:30 at night” to do her job. Bush responded quickly, Hughes said, telling Card: “Don’t run off all my working mothers!” Although Card made accommodations, Hughes left the White House after a year and a half, saying the job was too hard on her “homesick” Texan family. That fact hit her one Saturday morning, she said, when her teenage son asked her to bake him some brownies and she was simply too exhausted to do it.

. . .

So female staffers adopted a meeting strategy they called “amplification”: When a woman made a key point, other women would repeat it, giving credit to its author. This forced the men in the room to recognize the contribution – and denied them the chance to claim the idea as their own. “We just started doing it, and made a purpose of doing it. It was an everyday thing,” said one former Obama aide who requested anonymity to speak frankly. Obama noticed, she and other said, and began calling more often on women and junior aides.
As many times as my formerly Bernie Bro friend complains about "women shouldn't just vote for a woman because she's a woman," I read stories like this and just...
posted by sallybrown at 6:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [125 favorites]


As president, Hillary will: Guarantee up to 12 weeks of paid family and medical leave to care for a new child or a seriously ill family member, and up to 12 weeks of medical leave to recover from a serious illness or injury of their own... Hillary will pay for her paid leave plan with tax reforms that will ensure the wealthiest Americans pay their fair share.

I am slowly and disappointedly shaking my head at Trump for not doing the obvious and saying "actually WE promise THIRTEEN weeks"
posted by Greg Nog at 6:54 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


But here it sounds like you may have confused Steven Seagal movie characters with real people.

Steven Seagal is a real person and is currently doing a friendship tour with some of the worst dictators in the world.
posted by srboisvert at 6:56 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump aide says 6 weeks of guaranteed paid maternity leave will be paid for by eliminating fraud in unemployment insurance.

Donnie Trump wants to steal the money I work hard for to PAY **MY** UNEMPLOYMENT **INSURANCE** PREMIUMS, to be used for an new Government Entitlement Program!
posted by mikelieman at 6:57 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


they can't actually tell you specifically what they would actually do to save all that money.

Get rid of "something called Volcano Monitoring"
posted by Greg Nog at 6:58 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]




Conservative mythology always posits that there are billions of dollars of fraud and waste just sitting there waiting to be mined although they can't actually tell you specifically what they would actually do to save all that money.

Chopping all those "welfare queens" off the rolls. The ones that they just know are there, but the liberal social-work mafia wants them to keep voting for Democrats so they pretend not to see their TVs and cell phones and Cadillacs.
posted by Etrigan at 7:00 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


So female staffers adopted a meeting strategy they called “amplification”: When a woman made a key point, other women would repeat it, giving credit to its author. This forced the men in the room to recognize the contribution – and denied them the chance to claim the idea as their own. “We just started doing it, and made a purpose of doing it. It was an everyday thing,”

That's fucking amazing. Thanks sallybrown for sharing it.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:07 AM on September 13, 2016 [51 favorites]


"Important note on Trump's 6-week maternity leave plan: it's NOT full paid maternity leave. It's a safety net: 6 weeks unemployment benefits"

So then, not maternity leave. It's making Family Medical Leave Act provide unemployment in additional to short-term disability? And FMLA is 12 weeks, right?
posted by mikelieman at 7:13 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]




they can't actually tell you specifically what they would actually do to save all that money.


I don't know if Springfield needs that Bear Patrol.
posted by zutalors! at 7:14 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


And the FMLA thing *is* Hillary Clinton's plan... Sheesh...
posted by mikelieman at 7:16 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Truth About Undocumented Immigrants and Taxes

Kick out undocumented immigrants and you create a $12 billion hole in Social Security.

"The Social Security system has grown increasingly reliant on this stream of revenue, particularly as aging Baby Boomers start to retire. Stephen Goss, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration, estimates that about 1.8 million immigrants were working with fake or stolen Social Security cards in 2010, and he expects that number to reach 3.4 million by 2040. He calculates that undocumented immigrants paid $13 billion into the retirement trust fund that year, and only got about $1 billion in benefits. “We estimate that earnings by unauthorized immigrants result in a net positive effect on Social Security financial status generally, and that this effect contributed roughly $12 billion to the cash flow of the program for 2010,” Gross concluded in a 2013 review of the impact of undocumented immigrants on Social Security."
posted by chris24 at 7:16 AM on September 13, 2016 [37 favorites]


"Kick out undocumented immigrants and you create...."

Speaking of. Where's that proof that Melina Trump didn't commit visa fraud?
posted by mikelieman at 7:20 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Washington City Paper on the Alt-Right's plans to take over the District.

"Even if Donald Trump loses the presidential election, Jenkins says these radical ideologues want to insinuate themselves into mainstream politics....

...He says the alt right is undergoing a rebranding. Indeed, they unveiled a snazzy new 'synthpop'-inspired logo Friday. Instead of Nazi outfits and Confederate flags, these guys dress in business suits and sport Northern accents."
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:22 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'd like to call attention to this line from emjaybee's comment: It's a measure of how fragile those illusions are that they can't endure even the mildest questions.

That's exactly the problem with modern movement conservatism and the reason it invested so much money in constructing an impermeable information bubble around itself. George H. W. Bush was exactly correct that Reagan's supply-side economics codswallop was "voodoo economics," but even during the ongoing economic disaster in Kansas, that doctrine can't be questioned, because it's the justification for those sweet, sweet tax breaks for the wealthy.

It's the reason why Congressional Republicans won't let the CDC even collect data on gun deaths (a tacit admission, if there ever was one, that said data would suggest policy changes they don't want).

It's the reason climate change denial has taken such a deep hold among Republicans.

It's the reason George W. Bush's administration never quite managed to voice an honest, compelling reason for their desired invasion of Iraq.

It's the reason Republicans officials can't admit that Obamacare is a success.

It's the reason so-called "moderate" pundits like Thomas Friedman and David Brooks keep writing that they wished Obama would propose some kind of sensible, reasonable compromise policy that, if they bothered to check, turns out to be exactly what Obama is proposing.

Cognitive dissonance is a powerful force, and it's painful to be confronted by evidence that one's cherished beliefs are simply wrong. It's a shame that, for the sake of honest and rational public discourse, more attention isn't paid to the efforts conservatives go thru to deny basic reality, what with its inherent liberal bias and all.
posted by Gelatin at 7:23 AM on September 13, 2016 [61 favorites]


William Hague, a former leader of the UK Conservative Party, and Foreign Secretary from 2010-2014, writes about working with Hillary Clinton: "There are people attacking her staying power now who, if asked to undertake one fortnight of how she did that job, would have to be taken straight to hospital. The Hillary Clinton I got to know was a living, breathing advertisement for unrelenting stamina."
posted by holgate at 7:26 AM on September 13, 2016 [68 favorites]


There's no question that Team Trump has taken the page from Karl Rove's playbook about attacking their opponents with the opponents' strengths and Trump's weaknesses.
posted by Gelatin at 7:28 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Median real income +5.2% in 2015. Wowzas."

"First increase in median annual income since 2007."

From the Census's "Income and Poverty in the United States" for 2015 that just came out.
posted by chris24 at 7:31 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


There's no question that Team Trump has taken the page from Karl Rove's playbook

Oh, this is an older playbook, the Roger Stone book of spectacular ratfuckery. When Trump was saying in the 90s that tribal casinos would be mobbed up... well.
posted by holgate at 7:34 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]




"1.2% drop in poverty rate."
posted by chris24 at 7:39 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


The full Census report: Income and Poverty in the United States: 2015.
posted by chris24 at 7:43 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Politico: Progressives draft staff blacklist for Clinton administration

Oh yes, please start with the blacklists. They've got such a storied history, and have gone so well for progressives in the past.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:47 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


Buzzfeed: Republicans Privately Panic At “Terrifying” Prospect Of Trump Win
“I’ve heard a lot of conservatives voicing frustration, like, ‘How fucking hard is this, Hillary?’” said Ben Howe, a conservative ad-maker and an outspoken Trump detractor. “That’s the only reason I’m panicked these days … I’m losing faith in Hillary’s ability to win this easy-ass election.”

Rick Wilson, a Florida-based GOP consultant now working on Evan McMullin’s independent presidential campaign, said few of his #NeverTrump compatriots believe a case of pneumonia will sink Clinton’s candidacy. But her impulse to conceal the illness — and her campaign’s clumsy response once it was revealed — reinforced a core political weakness.

“There are a lot of Republicans on the ‘Never Trump’ side that are starting to feel very nervous,” Wilson said, “because no matter how minor the next thing is there’s a possibility [the Clinton campaign] is gonna screw it up by lying about something. They can’t help themselves. It’s genetic.”
Some Republicans are whining because Clinton is not wiping the floor with Trump. OK. I guess it would be too much to ask these guys who are terrified of a Trump Presidency to do something more than wring their hands? It really does not help to get mad at Clinton.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:49 AM on September 13, 2016 [80 favorites]


> "Important note on Trump's 6-week maternity leave plan: it's NOT full paid maternity leave. It's a safety net: 6 weeks unemployment benefits"

In most countries that have paid parental leave, the amount you receive is based on your current salary, and somewhat less than you normal paycheck, like unemployment benefits.
posted by nangar at 7:51 AM on September 13, 2016


So female staffers adopted a meeting strategy they called “amplification”: When a woman made a key point, other women would repeat it, giving credit to its author. This forced the men in the room to recognize the contribution – and denied them the chance to claim the idea as their own.

I do this - it makes me feel like at least some of the time the hard work women do is recognized. I recommend it as a tactic for anyone since it's not aggressive and has a subtle impact.
posted by winna at 7:52 AM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


Overall a fantastic report, but one area (besides the rural/city divide mentioned above) Republicans will probably jump on: Immigrants (documented and undocumented) had a bigger percentage income increase than native-born citizens (though they make less than native-born.)

"Between 2014 and 2015, the real median income of households maintained by a foreign-born person increased 5.3 percent, from $49,649 to $52,295. The median income of households maintained by a native-born person increased 4.4 percent, from $54,741 to $57,173.13. The 2015 median income of households maintained by a noncitizen ($45,137) increased 10.5 percent from 2014; while the median income of house-holds maintained by a naturalized citizen ($61,982), was not statistically different from the 2014 median"
posted by chris24 at 7:52 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


It really does not help to get mad at Clinton.

Perhaps not, but it is required. One might be forgiven the sin of not supporting the nominee when the nominee is Trump; there will be no such forgiveness for those who do not adequately oppose Clinton.
posted by Mooski at 7:54 AM on September 13, 2016


In response to this tweet:

"Trump says Clinton running ‘hate-filled campaign’ at tense North Carolina rally where violence flares up"

Brian Fallon, Clinton's Press Sec replies:

"Trump's been lured out onto branch of debating which campaign is running on hate. About to be sawed off behind him"

They really want this battle and like their chances. So do I.
posted by chris24 at 7:59 AM on September 13, 2016 [28 favorites]


octothorpe: Nate Silver gives GOP donors a closed-door presentation
Donors who participated in Silver's session besides Singer and Todd Ricketts included Ron Weiser, finance vice chairman of the Trump campaign; Betsy DeVos, a Michigan-based billionaire from one of the country's most powerful political families; Joe Craft, a Kentucky coal magnate and major Trump booster; and New York investor Cliff Asness.
sallybrown: Gross, Nate.

Or, he got paid to talk about his website:
Attendees said his insights were valuable, though they involved no information that wasn’t already on his website in one form or another.
Yeah, sounds like a powerpoint presentation walking busy people through a slightly complicated website.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:00 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Kellyanne Conway went on CNN and declared that Donald Trump was a very generous man. When asked for proof, she said that "he employed tens of thousands of people from many different countries, both genders certainly, from all walks of life over the years." When it was pointed out to her that that is not charity, she responded, "It is pretty darn impressive and it isn't the political resume that his opponent has."

Wow. So Clinton is not as generous as Trump because she hasn't employed as many people. Forget about the fact that Clinton gives 10% of her income to charity on top of paying her taxes which Trump does not do, the fact is Trump gets a lot from the people he employs. And if he does not feel satisfied with the job they do, he doesn't pay them. Such a twisted view of charity. Kellyanne Conway is either immoral or stupid.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:01 AM on September 13, 2016 [30 favorites]


Brian Fallon, Clinton's Press Sec replies:

"Trump's been lured out onto branch of debating which campaign is running on hate. About to be sawed off behind him"


Note that Fallon is her current press secretary. The campaign is literally saying "hahahaha, he's walking right into our trap" on publicly visible social media without fear that Trump might decide not to walk into the trap, because they know he's too reckless to change course.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:04 AM on September 13, 2016 [42 favorites]


Sorry, one more point on the Census Income and Poverty Report:

"The income gains last year were the largest ever recorded for the 10th, 20th, 30th, 40th, 50th, 60th, 70th and 80th percentiles."

Basically between the income increases and poverty decrease, it's the best census income report ever.
posted by chris24 at 8:04 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Hillary Clinton Is Sick and the New York Times Is ON IT Blogger Kevin Drum keeps score on PneumoniaGate (with pic): "The LA Times has two front-page stories related to Hillary Clinton's pneumonia. Ditto for the Wall Street Journal. The Washington Post has three. But the New York Times is flooding the zone! Huzzah for the Gray Lady!"
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:05 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


> Kellyanne Conway is either immoral or stupid
“either/or” suggests that those are mutually exclusive
posted by farlukar at 8:06 AM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


All this aside, where does this absolute confidence in winning come from, I wonder?
[...]the two states she needs to put her over 270 (Pennsylvania and Wisconsin) haven't voted Republican in at least 28 years and have shown Clinton leading in 99% and 100% of the polls, respectively[...]
Moreover, polls aside, Trump's voter registration and organization efforts are paltry even here, where he needs the work the most. I'm not sure if he has an effort going on in Pennsylvania; last I heard, he didn't have a single office open in Philadelphia. Hillary has four in Philly alone; mine, which is not the largest of the four, is so swamped with volunteers that sometimes I've gone in and not had a place to sit. And I've worked numerous shifts stretching to and past four hours, simply because the half–dozen full–timers are perpetually overwhelmed by just how much work is getting done for them to document.

It actually has the same aggressive feel to it that the one start–up I worked for in NYC did. Offices hold competitions across one another, both in the city and (I think) the state and maybe even nationally. There's a lot of collegiate pressure to perform, both because everybody clearly believes in the cause and because they really want to get called out by name in the evening conference call. I've been called in a few times to train new data people, because we need to parse hundreds of canvass records and voter registration forms a day. The outreach is incredible.

The entire thing makes it clear how important volunteer efforts like this are. I've been registered to vote since the primaries, but there are really a lot of people who'd love to vote in theory but in practice have no idea where to begin. Concerted efforts to get those people registered, and to get them to the voting centers come November, matter a great deal. There have also been numerous studies that show how the impact of these actions isn't limited to the individuals you reach out to: they create a social momentum that encourage those people's friends and acquaintances to vote, and that momentum can work virally if enough people are reached out to.

If the polls were showing Clinton and Trump in a dead tie, I'd be almost wholly confident in Clinton's winning, on the basis of her ground game alone. This isn't the first election where this has mattered. The data–architecting tool I use professionally is the one Obama used in 2008 and 2012, and articles came out after the 2012 election observing what a clusterfuck Romney's campaign was when it came to organizing and tracking voters. That tanked him four years ago. Clinton's system makes Obama's look incompetent by comparison, and it's operating against what looks to be a gaping void.

In Florida, the other swing state so important that it plus PA equals Clinton winning instantly, Trump's Miami office turned out to be a practical joke by a Democrat, and Trump's putting so little effort into organizing there that nobody noticed. (That article notes he has one Florida campaign office—in Sarasota.)

I don't advocate blind cockiness. I like that Hillary's campaign emails make us sound like we're in the middle of pandemonium—somewhat cynically, I appreciate that we're trying to scare voters into actually voting. I still volunteer when I can. But I also think Trump is being set up for a trouncing, and that the polls underrepresent how trounced he's going to be. I say that as somebody who's on the ground floor in a swing state.
posted by rorgy at 8:06 AM on September 13, 2016 [65 favorites]


Some Republicans are whining because Clinton is not wiping the floor with Trump.

Haha. That's amazing. Some Republicans are sneering at Clinton because she isn't handily beating the nominee they couldn't avoid nominating themselves.
posted by notyou at 8:07 AM on September 13, 2016 [58 favorites]


Kellyanne Conway went on CNN and declared that Donald Trump was a very generous man. When asked for proof, she said that "he employed tens of thousands of people from many different countries, both genders certainly, from all walks of life over the years." When it was pointed out to her that that is not charity, she responded, "It is pretty darn impressive and it isn't the political resume that his opponent has."

United States Department of State
Employees
13,000 Foreign Service employees
11,000 Civil Service employees
45,000 Foreign Service local employees
posted by Etrigan at 8:10 AM on September 13, 2016 [18 favorites]


Some Republicans are whining because Clinton is not wiping the floor with Trump. OK. I guess it would be too much to ask these guys who are terrified of a Trump Presidency to do something more than wring their hands? It really does not help to get mad at Clinton.

That'd be the Hillary Clinton that the Republican establishment has spent thirty years demonizing, wouldn't it? As portrayed in a media that the Republican establishment has spent 50 years working with bogus complaints about being "liberal," wouldn't it? Running against a candidate who has simply taken a megaphone to Republican dog whistles?

Gee, I wonder why she isn't doing better?
posted by Gelatin at 8:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [27 favorites]


I'm still wondering why a teenager couldn't bake his own brownies.
posted by asteria at 8:13 AM on September 13, 2016 [78 favorites]


Trump-space is not democratic. It depends for its energy on the tyrannical
emanations of the man at its center, on the wattage of his big marmalade face and that
dainty mobster thing he does with the thumb and forefinger of his right hand. But it is
artistic. Within its precincts, the most vicious and nihilistic utterances retain a kind of
innocent levity: They sound half-funny, theatrical, or merely petulant. The scapegoating and
bullying are somehow childlike. This is why, so far, no political strategy has succeeded
against him. It rolls on, his power grab, his wild Trumpian trundling toward the White
House, because he’s not doing politics at all. He’s doing bad art. Terrible art. He can’t go
off message, because his message is “Look at me! I’m off message!”

Speaking on the hoof, in an emancipated, undogmatic way, is a fashion among today’s public
figures: The loosey-goosey style of Pope Francis himself has been hailed by one of his
closest counselors as “a pontificate of … incomplete thought.” But nothing comes close to
Trump’s improv extravaganza, his unteleprompted lungings, his obscenity stampede, his
rhetorical vagrancy. Trump’s speaking style is from the future, from a time to come when
human consciousness has broken down into little floating atavistic splinters of subjectivity
and superstition and jokes that aren’t really jokes. At times he is in chauvinist free fall,
swiping and snarling at the phantoms around him. At others, pure psychic prima materia comes
bubbling up in crude lumps, clinically fascinating, as when he fantasized that Megyn Kelly
was exploding with menstrual blood.

...Is it frivolous to portray a genuine and expanding menace to the republic as some kind of
arty iconoclast or Lord of Misrule? Obviously it is. Look at him up there, triumphant,
Trump-umphant, roasting in adoration, but also—like a professional wrestling heel—accepting
and enjoying the hostility, the spicy crackle of odium. He hoists his chin, he lengthens the
imperial rampart of his lower lip. He makes that face, that superfrown, the glower of the
autocrat. He looks like a bust that will one day be toppled in a city square.
Donald Trump, Sex Pistol
posted by y2karl at 8:15 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


"The group with negative income growth: people outside of metropolitan areas."

Rural Merica. Proportional to income; as costly or more costly than ATX. Groceries of any quality, or freshness; a ten dollar round trip or a 30% markup than from the distant medium-small city. Products of brand and availability? Best know how to Amazon or Ebay. Internet is still seen on TV, via a Dateline NBC or TrueCrime TV special; full of predators thieves crooks and outsiders.

Per capita poverty, and substance abuse issues are on par with many of the large cities renowned for such issues - meth is easy to make, cheap alcohol is cheap, smoking is all but encouraged; and the minimum wage job with -0- chance for advancement and pay increases is par for the course.

Hillary is the beast; Ted Cruz is the salvation; Trump is the too powerful quasi-diety mega boss. Obama; a person who has done absolutely *nothing* positive. Rural Merica. Consuming itself.
posted by buzzman at 8:17 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


The campaign is literally saying "hahahaha, he's walking right into our trap" on publicly visible social media without fear that Trump might decide not to walk into the trap, because they know he's too reckless to change course.

They're trying to get into his head. They want him constantly questioning whether he's walking into a trap or not. Keep him off balance.
posted by EarBucket at 8:18 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


They're trying to get into his head.

Yep, literally baiting him with a tweet.
posted by chris24 at 8:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


They want him constantly questioning whether he's walking into a trap or not.

I fear they may have credited him with more insight than he's capable of.
posted by Mooski at 8:22 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yep, literally baiting him with a tweet.

And here I was thinking the alt-right were the master baiters.
posted by Talez at 8:22 AM on September 13, 2016 [21 favorites]


Buzzfeed: Republicans Privately Panic At “Terrifying” Prospect Of Trump Win

McKay Coppins is *excellent* at getting idiots to spout off to him and then building a piece in which they out themselves as complete fools.
posted by sallybrown at 8:23 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kellyanne Conway went on CNN and declared that Donald Trump was a very generous man. When asked for proof, she said that "he employed tens of thousands of people from many different countries, both genders certainly, from all walks of life over the years." When it was pointed out to her that that is not charity, she responded, "It is pretty darn impressive and it isn't the political resume that his opponent has."

Similar to Trump's claim that he loves the disabled because he spends "millions of dollars making buildings good for people that are disabled." [As he is required to by law.]
posted by zakur at 8:25 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]



So female staffers adopted a meeting strategy they called “amplification”: When a woman made a key point, other women would repeat it, giving credit to its author. This forced the men in the room to recognize the contribution – and denied them the chance to claim the idea as their own.


I'm the only woman in my department *sad trombone*
(I actually only have notable sexism problems from one person here who is not my manager and is I think tacitly recognized as the weak link in the department, so things could be worse. Still though, it's not great.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:27 AM on September 13, 2016


Krugman basically calling out his own paper again.

Why Are The Media Objectively Pro-Trump?

"Because they are, at this point. It’s not even false equivalence: compare the amount of attention given to the Clinton Foundation despite absence of any evidence of wrongdoing, and attention given to Trump Foundation, which engaged in more or less open bribery — but barely made a dent in news coverage. Clinton was harassed endlessly over failure to give press conferences, even though she was doing lots of interviews; Trump violated decades of tradition by refusing to release his taxes, amid strong suspicion that he is hiding something; the press simply dropped the subject."
posted by chris24 at 8:28 AM on September 13, 2016 [48 favorites]


I don't advocate blind cockiness. I like that Hillary's campaign emails make us sound like we're in the middle of pandemonium—somewhat cynically, I appreciate that we're trying to scare voters into actually voting. I still volunteer when I can. But I also think Trump is being set up for a trouncing, and that the polls underrepresent how trounced he's going to be. I say that as somebody who's on the ground floor in a swing state.

I appreciate your take and your efforts. I agree with your outlook for the most part. I understand the Electoral College and how its layout far outweighs how many points Trump will win by in meaningless states.

But I am and remain nervous because I am a liberal, and I can never underestimate the American left's ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I am nervous because I am an American, the land where fake cheese comes in a can and the Kardashians are famous idols of millions and otherwise rational people believe ridiculous shit they hear on TV or read in the paper or hear on the radio or read on Facebook. And I am nervous because _it literally does not matter whether a Presidential candidate is coherent, qualified and/or capable_ any more.

I just want to get to November and return to my normal levels of cynicism.
posted by delfin at 8:28 AM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


What's interesting is that despite all of the "drama" that the press seems to be trying to create out of this race the reality is that it's largely static. Hillary had a big bump out of the conventions and when that fade her big bump faded as well but it's just been a reversion to the trend line that has been incredibly stable since the time period where the nominees were decided.

Trump can't seem to get past his current cap and while there is some nominal chances that he'll win most of them are predicated on extremely low voter turnout which I see absolutely zero chance of actually happening given the breathless treatment this election has received from pundits.

Once state polling show a major shift towards Trump I might get nervous but right now I'm basically barely checking in on and I'm a political junkie. The reasons for this is that it's completely boring and predictable unless you allow yourself to focus too much on the minutae.
posted by vuron at 8:29 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


mmoncur: I'll be the happiest person on earth if Dr. Oz tells Trump he has 3 Stooges Syndrome

Trump: So what you're saying is I'm indestructible.
Dr. Oz: Oh, no, no. In fact, even a slight breeze could-
Trump: Indestructible.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [21 favorites]


They want him constantly questioning whether he's walking into a trap or not.

ackbarwithtrumphair.gif
posted by The Bellman at 8:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Kellyanne Conway went on CNN and declared that Donald Trump was a very generous man. When asked for proof, she said that "he employed tens of thousands of people from many different countries, both genders certainly, from all walks of life over the years." When it was pointed out to her that that is not charity, she responded, "It is pretty darn impressive and it isn't the political resume that his opponent has."


It's an entitled viewpoint that isn't all that uncommon among business owners and people who support 'business ownership' as a be all and end all goal in society. They do people/society favors by creating/giving out jobs. They're lauded for it. Trump just takes it to another level.

I mean in my last job my boss told me I should be grateful at what they were willing to pay me when there was an emergency and I had to cover a position that they had no one else to fill. It was sooo much more money (it wasn't and way below what similar position would pay in another place). She also made similar comments that other people should show more respect because the company was giving them jobs. She isn't the first person I've worked with with attitudes like this.
posted by Jalliah at 8:31 AM on September 13, 2016 [25 favorites]


WaPo: The national media is talking about Trump’s racist campaign. That’s good for Hillary Clinton.

"The battle between the two campaigns over Hillary Clinton’s “basket of deplorables” comment is now fully joined, and it’s becoming increasingly clear that the Clinton campaign has one major strategic goal: to get the national media to talk about Donald Trump’s bigotry and his racist campaign as much as possible."
posted by chris24 at 8:32 AM on September 13, 2016 [26 favorites]


WaPo: The national media is talking about Trump’s racist campaign. That’s good for Hillary Clinton.

Don't forget that she fired the first shot late in August with her "alt-right" speech.
posted by Gelatin at 8:35 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


"and it’s becoming increasingly clear that the Clinton campaign has one major strategic goal: to get the national media to talk about Donald Trump’s bigotry and his racist campaign as much as possible."

Because, let's face it, they won't do it by themselves.
posted by Artw at 8:37 AM on September 13, 2016 [47 favorites]


I'm not sure if he has an effort going on in Pennsylvania

I'm not super plugged in to the HFA effort here in Pittsburgh but off the top of my head I can think of 4 offices in the city proper (East End, Strip District, Oakland, and North Side) and another few out in the close-in suburbs. We, well specifically my husband, got canvassed last night, which is funny because despite all of his armchair radicalism he's a pretty loyal D voter when it comes down to it. (I think I scared the canvasser because husband was kind of hemming and hawing about his answers and kept asking me for my input and I was like OMG FUCK TRUMP, I DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN A SMOLDERING RACIST HELLHOLE, #I'MWITHHER GRRAAARRRR!!! And then I was like uh sorry, I know I'm not the one you need data on. Carry on.) I work on a university campus which has it's very own HFA office and there are voter registration tables here literally every day.

Trump I think has one office waaaaaay out in the far suburbs, but that's from the primaries so I'm not sure if it has even stayed there or what.

Hillary yard sign count from my morning commute today: 6, including my own. Trump: 0. I do every now and then see Trump bumper stickers (always on very shiny late model pick-up trucks) and it reminds me: they walk amongst us.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:38 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


I'm still wondering why a teenager couldn't bake his own brownies.

You can't trust a teenager with your weed.
posted by box at 8:41 AM on September 13, 2016 [41 favorites]


I just want to get to November and return to my normal levels of cynicism.

Don't read any of Bernie's campaign emails from before the DNC, especially the ones about $$$ and influence. Probably best to delete every one of them. Remember to unsubscribe from the new ones that are still coming in. /illness
posted by buzzman at 8:42 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sometimes it feels like Hillary's playing chess and Trump is playing 'flip the table'.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:43 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


when you're used to privilege, the absence of privilege feels like persecution

Years ago, when I got my first career job, I moved to the city like all the kids do. We specifically looked for a house with a garage so we could work on our projects. We had no intention of parking a car in there, and when you have a driveway you don't use, you basically have a city-sanctioned free parking spot in front of it. If anyone else parks in front of your driveway, you can call the city and they'll be more than happy to ticket them. I'm not a big fan of car culture and I think this is bullshit, but that's how it is.

Before we moved in, our house was vacant for some time. The neighbor had gotten into the habit of parking his truck in front of our driveway. I had to tell him multiple times that this was no longer OK. Not only were parking spots a pain in the ass to find, but once in a while we actually did need to get a car in the driveway.

Boy, did he not take this well. I remember him being visibly angry. He once scraped the hell out of my bumper pulling one of his vehicles into his own driveway and then denied any responsibility. He kept up this attitude for all 7 months I was there, to the point when I couldn't get the moving van into our own driveway because of him.

I think that it is human nature that after a certain amount of time, privileges start to feel like rights. But maybe the degree to which he held on to those feelings had something to do with being a grumpy older white dude.
posted by cman at 8:45 AM on September 13, 2016 [61 favorites]



I've noticed in social media (twitter, comments, facebook etc) that there are Trump supporters who have added 'deplorable' or something to do with baskets to their handles. From what I gather it's about 'reclaiming the word, ironic, Hillary is dissing the American people, deplorable lives matter' something, something protest. They're trying to change Hillary's message.

It's pretty awesome really because not only is it keeping the word and message out there it's directing people to constantly have discussions about Trump being awful. Plus it's reenforcing the message because the people naming themselves with that are saying either really stupid and/or awful things. I've seen so many, 'see deplorablex..you've just proved the message . Thanks for providing a great example of what she is talking about,' responses.

In some cases the 'deplorable x' gets mad and doubles down on whatever they're saying.
The lack of self awareness of how it comes across to people outside the Trump bubble is quite something to see.
posted by Jalliah at 8:46 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Iiiii'm not sure they're trying to be ironic. I think a certain subset are pretty proud of being terrible people. Edgelords gonna edge.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:47 AM on September 13, 2016 [27 favorites]


Sometimes it feels like Hillary's playing chess and Trump is playing 'flip the table'.

TFW when you spend an hour playing Candyland with your little brother, and just when you and he realize victory is in your grasp, he flips the board upside down and accuses you of cheating.
posted by sallybrown at 8:47 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


ugh my brother broke our Connect Four set because I kept beating him.
posted by zutalors! at 8:49 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Hillary yard sign count from my morning commute today: 6, including my own. Trump: 0. I do every now and then see Trump bumper stickers (always on very shiny late model pick-up trucks) and it reminds me: they walk amongst us.

In suburban Philadelphia (emphasis on suburban), I've seen more Trump signs than Hillary by a wide margin. When I venture to the middle of the state, it's Trumptopia. On the way up to my in-laws' place, one store had a huge road sign flashing *TRUMP* *TRUMP* *TRUMP* *HATS STICKERS SIGNS INSIDE*, and another guy had a big sign facing the road reading TRUMP 2016: NO MORE BULLSHIT. I've seen TRUMP THE BITCH stickers on stop signs and whatnot maybe half an hour from the Philly city limits.

I have also seen my share of greasepaint writing on vehicle windows declaring REMEMBER BENGHAZI and HILLARY FOR PRISON and that ilk. Unsurprisingly, it's always on pickup trucks.
posted by delfin at 8:51 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Unsurprisingly, it's always on pickup trucks.

Interestingly, I was taking myself to task last night on the drive home for assuming that a pickup truck was shorthand for Trump supporter; while I still think the assumption's wrong, I guess I'm glad I'm not the only person who's connected those two dots.
posted by Mooski at 8:54 AM on September 13, 2016


Iiiii'm not sure they're trying to be ironic. I think a certain subset are pretty proud of being terrible people. Edgelords gonna edge.

I'm sure they are proud. The reactions they're getting are still the same whether it's ironic or proud.
posted by Jalliah at 8:55 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


"The media consensus is Clinton had a "bad week".

Here's the scorecard:


Really a must see tweet and list to show just how bad the media is doing.
posted by chris24 at 8:56 AM on September 13, 2016 [41 favorites]


Mooski: I only have two stickers on my truck. An American Flag and an IWW decal.
posted by absalom at 8:56 AM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


Why am I grossed out by Nate Silver meeting with PoT(T) donors? These people have been financing the appalling Republican politics of the last 3 decades. These rich asshats pour money into destroying the social safety-net, undermining organized labor, advancing climate change denialism, promoting racism, misogyny, and anti-Queer bias, and encouraging hate against religious minorities.

To sit in a room with such people and take their money while walking them through his analyses suggests that for Nate Silver, these actions aren't really that unacceptable.

Betsy DeVos--sister of the sickening Erik Prince of Blackwater infamy--is married to Dick DeVos, an Amyway/Quickstar pyramid scheme scion. Ron Weiser is the frickin' finance vice chairman of the Trump campaign!

These people are actively scamming people and participating in the most ugly campaign since George Wallace. They are currently engaged in social violence against people of color and LGBTQ+ folks.

Yeah, feeling pretty good about mostly tuning out 538 for this election cycle. Sam Wang is an actual statistical expert who publishes his code and isn't dependent on clickbaiting headlines.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 8:58 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


Mostly, it depends on why you bought a pickup truck:

1) Because I have a frequent need to haul a bunch of heavy stuff from point A to point B.
2) Because it's what Real American Men[tm] drive.

Sort accordingly.
posted by delfin at 9:00 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


I plan to get a pickup truck someday and put lots of feminist stickers on it, because pickups are awesome and I hate that douchebags have claimed them.
posted by emjaybee at 9:01 AM on September 13, 2016 [34 favorites]


When we were in upstate New York, about 45 minutes outside Ithaca, I actually saw a Prius with a Trump sticker.
posted by joyceanmachine at 9:05 AM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


I plan to get a pickup truck someday and put lots of feminist stickers on it, because pickups are awesome and I hate that douchebags have claimed them.

My first vehicle was a pick-up. It was awesome. I loved it so much. At the time it made sense, I was living more rural and frequently needed 4 wheel drive. I also wanted to be able to move stuff around. I also went off road a lot for various reasons. It was both tool and toy.

I've driven a few since then but not owned myself. I love how they drive but it's just not the most practical option for what I need now. Pickup trucks are pretty common here, it's farm country and both men and women drive them. There is the group of pick-up owning bro dudes, though I come across those in more urban suburban areas. The ones where it's clear it's a 'man' thing and holy hell you better not doing anything to scratch up or make my truck dirty types. The type where actually hauling something is fraught with a whole lot of protective truck gear because holy hell that 2x4 can't scratch the paint bro.
posted by Jalliah at 9:10 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


I actually saw a Prius with a Trump sticker.

I saw a dead head sticker on a Cadillac.
posted by chris24 at 9:10 AM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


When we were in upstate New York, about 45 minutes outside Ithaca, I actually saw a Prius with a Trump sticker.

This is a line from the worst The Boys of Summer parody ever.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Ha! Jinx MCMikeNamara.
posted by chris24 at 9:12 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


I never understand the point of the clean, shiny pickup truck aesthetic. What, you're proud of the fact that you bought a fancy pickup truck and then refused to use it for either adventure or work? At that point it's just extremely inconvenient and expensive jewelry.
posted by Mitrovarr at 9:16 AM on September 13, 2016 [21 favorites]


So female staffers adopted a meeting strategy they called “amplification”: When a woman made a key point, other women would repeat it, giving credit to its author. This forced the men in the room to recognize the contribution – and denied them the chance to claim the idea as their own.

I do this - it makes me feel like at least some of the time the hard work women do is recognized. I recommend it as a tactic for anyone since it's not aggressive and has a subtle impact.


This isn't just for women, for what it's worth - we male allies can amplify/reinforce/deflect idea-stealing by other men too. I try(*) to just shut up and let women do their thing, but I have been in meetings where there was a severe minority of women (often it was just 'woman') and there were jerkholes who'd stomp/take ideas. So I'd do some variation on "So Rebecca, your idea is we take xyz and that accomplishes pdq?" or "Rebecca, I think your idea of xyz is a good one." Downside: close to mansplaining. Upside: includes your idea or variant firmly pinning achievement on the woman who actually did it.

"Yeah, good idea Rebecca!" after someone tries to steal is better (and soooo much more fun :) but sometimes the judo has to be more subtle if you don't want to create blowback for both you and 'Rebecca,' in my experience.

* Okay I don't really anymore because now I work 100% remotely and it's just a boy's club here at the dining room table with me and the dog. But I used to be a part of civilization
posted by phearlez at 9:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [19 favorites]


I've seen a couple of Trump Priuses, and a Trump Ford Fiesta. There seems to be an association between multiple "Christian religious freedom" stickers and Trump supporters.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:20 AM on September 13, 2016


At that point it's just extremely inconvenient and expensive jewelry.

Aaaaaaand there's your answer.
My machine shop field report: had to get some new parts made in a hurry, which meant Saturday work. The shop owner (drives a full-cab Ram, relatively new and beat to hell) offhandedly mentioned (unprompted, I don't talk politics w/coworkers, even jokingly) wanting to deport Trump. We had a pretty fun discussion after that. As it was Saturday, we were the only two there.
posted by rp at 9:21 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


One of my closest friends has a ginormous Ford F-250 with a Hillary sticker (replacing the Bernie one that was there until a few months back). That one raises some eyebrows.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:22 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


Come to think of it, the union thing means there are probably a fair number of Hillary stickers on pickups, work vans, etc. My brother has one, too.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:24 AM on September 13, 2016


I'm pretty sure that here, Subrarus roll off the assembly line with the Obama campaign stickers already attached.

I did see a Trump sticker in the parking lot of Whole Foods the other day, but given who runs Whole Foods maybe not such a surprise.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:24 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]




My dad traded in his Prius for a Subaru about a year ago. Both of these were chosen because they fit his bike and cycling equipment best among the safe vehicles/good gas mileage class.

He's voting Trump.
posted by phunniemee at 9:27 AM on September 13, 2016


Just a few days ago I saw a pristine 'Cruz for President' sticker on the back of a Honda HR-V here in New Orleans. I was so astounded that I took a photo. No scrape marks or other obvious signs of attempted removal.
posted by komara at 9:28 AM on September 13, 2016


Interestingly, I was taking myself to task last night on the drive home for assuming that a pickup truck was shorthand for Trump supporter; while I still think the assumption's wrong, I guess I'm glad I'm not the only person who's connected those two dots.

Not work trucks, though. Only the shiny hemi duallys with the stupid high beds that probably roll coal and have never seen a day of work in their lives. You know, like Donald.

Mostly, it depends on why you bought a pickup truck:
1) Because I have a frequent need to haul a bunch of heavy stuff from point A to point B.
2) Because it's what Real American Men[tm] drive.
Sort accordingly.


Yeah, this.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:28 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


If I came across a car with a sticker that said "trump that bitch" I would key the fuck out of it. I know that's wrong. I don't care.
posted by angrycat at 9:28 AM on September 13, 2016 [21 favorites]


In addition to the shocking statistics that y2karl posted above, Charles Blow makes very clear that helping Clinton's opponent makes you complicit in and responsible for the bigotry of the Republican campaign.

For me, this attitude extends to supporting Republicans who support their nominee. Substantial portions of elected Republicans are doing just that--support for Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, Chris Christie, or Marco Rubio is supporting Donald Trump, which, as Mr. Blow and Mr. Smooth have established, is a deplorable act.
Donald Trump is a deplorable candidate — to put it charitably — and anyone who helps him advance his racial, religious and ethnic bigotry is part of that bigotry. Period. [...] You can’t conveniently separate yourself from the detestable part of him because you sense in him the promise of cultural or economic advantage. That hair cannot be split. [...]

It doesn’t matter how lovely your family, how honorable your work or service, how devout your faith — if you place ideological adherence or economic self interest above the moral imperative to condemn and denounce a demagogue, then you are deplorable.
Charles Blow is a national treasure.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [51 favorites]


I can see how it would look that way to 18 year olds (which is what you were talking about), but Obamacare was a huge reform.

I'm a big Obamacare fan because I see it as a step towards universal health care which I think is far preferable to universal health insurance. But, as a Chicagoan, I feel it is important to point out that Obamacare had the public option amputated by Rahm Emanuel who seems to always manage to do the wrong thing in the interest of some tortured short-term political expediency logic.

I'm not that into the Great Man theory of history but I do believe in the Lousy Men of history and right now there seems to be a huge oversupply of them. Some even claim to be Democrats.
posted by srboisvert at 9:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [21 favorites]


There are a few pickups in our neighborhood that drive around waving American flags (like this), which reads aggressive and Trump-y to me, even with no other evidence suggesting that.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


My dad traded in his Prius for a Subaru about a year ago. Both of these were chosen because they fit his bike and cycling equipment best among the safe vehicles/good gas mileage class.

He's voting Trump.


Your dad is the worst lesbian ever.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [103 favorites]


Speaking of. Where's that proof that Melina Trump didn't commit visa fraud?

Somewhere previous to where the mods asked to stop talking about it.
posted by VTX at 9:32 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clearly income inequality and lack of real income growth is still a major, major problem in this country but I do wonder to what degree "this economy, amirite?" has just become a meme even among people who are doing just fine. Like, at what point do we stop saying "this economy, amirite?" and start saying "this lack of social safety net, amirite?"
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:35 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


Someone in my purplish neighborhood in a blue state has a Ford F-20 with two American flags: a regular flag and a black-and-white flag with a blue stripe down the center. I sometimes see it parked in front of the local motorcycle shop next to a billboard truck with a BLUE LIVES MATTER sign on it.
posted by pxe2000 at 9:35 AM on September 13, 2016


"1.2% drop in poverty rate."

Largest percentage drop since 1968 btw. 3.5 million people lifted out of poverty.
posted by chris24 at 9:35 AM on September 13, 2016 [18 favorites]


There's a "Cruz for President" car up the street from me. I want to pinch its cheeks and ask it if it's doing okay.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:36 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Who gets to be called a patriot?
Support can take the form of dissent just as readily as cheerleading — each is a way of suggesting what kind of nation America is to become, and patriots have lived and died on all sides of the argument. But during the 20th century, patriotism began to treat the question as one we’ve settled. The marketable, propagandistic imagery of World War II gave way to the paranoid suspicion of the Cold War era, and patriotism, more and more, morphed into a matter of optics — of theater. Love of country turned performative. We can know patriotism only when we see it — and so you’ve really got to show it. As a result, modern patriotism has become Kabuki citizenship. It’s Joseph McCarthy; it’s the House Un-American Activities Committee. It’s “Freedom fries” and “These colors don’t run.” It’s American-flag pins and the people who go nuts when a politician is caught without one.
posted by ChuraChura at 9:37 AM on September 13, 2016 [17 favorites]


I know that's wrong. I don't care.

angrycat


eponysterical
posted by zutalors! at 9:37 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


My dad traded in his Prius for a Subaru about a year ago. Both of these were chosen because they fit his bike and cycling equipment best among the safe vehicles/good gas mileage class.

Does he enjoy cycling in national parks and other public recreational areas? Because Trump and friends want to sell them off for development or energy extraction or mining. They won't be much fine to bike in after that.
Does he like using bike lanes? Republicans are 'agin em. Hope he's good at dodging cars, some of them full of yahoos with guns and a grudge against cyclists!
Does he know that the fuel efficiency he loves is largely due to liberal efforts to reduce pollution and smog, fought by people like Trump?
(I know, hard to reason with dads, I'm sure you've tried, but, damn.)
posted by emjaybee at 9:38 AM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


Samantha Bee is back!
posted by Pendragon at 9:38 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


"this economy, amirite?"

Honestly, thank god Obama's policies seem to have worked, because we'd be fucked this year if the economy really was as bad as Rs pretend.
posted by chris24 at 9:38 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


She isn't the first person I've worked with with attitudes like this.

There's an entire subreddit devoted to these people. https://www.reddit.com/r/latestagecapitalism
posted by waitingtoderail at 9:41 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Obamacare had the public option amputated by Rahm Emanuel--

There were never 60 Senate votes for the public option. What under-26s got was the ability to stay on their parents' plan longer, which is one of those Obama policies that makes a difference quietly.

I noticed that the HRC Twitter account spent some time yesterday talking about the college tuition / loan plan, quoting a lot of young people who (rightly) see the debt burden as a mortgage without a house at the end of it.
posted by holgate at 9:42 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


Regarding the census report:

So how long until we get a tweet 'The census is obviously bias and corrupt!!'

Guess it depends on how much play the results get.
posted by Jalliah at 9:42 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh for those who didn't hear, SAM BEE IS BACK!
posted by Talez at 9:43 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


In California, I've seen there's a few folks that like to protest Trump rallies by driving around with pick up trucks waving Mexico's flag. I'm not sure how those folks feel about HRC, but I'm pretty sure they're not fans of DJT.
posted by FJT at 9:44 AM on September 13, 2016


Mr. Taco Trucks is at it again on Samantha Bee.

Latinos for Trump founder: Hispanics “are a primitive and underdeveloped culture”

“As Hispanics, we are a primitive and underdeveloped culture. We’ll take whatever we can take if you let us.” Asked if that means people should be scared of Mexicans, Gutierrez replied, “Yes, you should be very frightened.”
posted by chris24 at 9:45 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


You know what I was wondering the other day? When is Samantha Bee gonna be back?
posted by Etrigan at 9:45 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


But, as a Chicagoan, I feel it is important to point out that Obamacare had the public option amputated by Rahm Emanuel

I'll have to inform Joe Lieberman that he's running Chicago.
posted by Talez at 9:45 AM on September 13, 2016


Obamacare had the public option amputated by Rahm Emanuel--

There were never 60 Senate votes for the public option


Folks that claim there were need to watch Blanche Lincoln's speech from the floor saying she would never vote for it and provide a whip count. And no, no amount of pressure from Obama would sway her, as she was in a re-election battle in Arkansas at the time.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:46 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


angrycat: If I came across a car with a sticker that said "trump that bitch" I would key the fuck out of it.

I'd be tempted to add a comma after the name. Too subtle, I know!
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:48 AM on September 13, 2016 [32 favorites]


Obamacare had the public option amputated by Rahm Emanuel--

There were never 60 Senate votes for the public option


oh good this again
posted by Think_Long at 9:49 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


I'd be tempted to add a comma after the name. Too subtle, I know!

Works on contingency? No, Money down!
posted by Talez at 9:50 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


I like Samantha Bee but I don't really get her point of view. She's just kinda omnidirectional mad at stuff?

At least she's better than Jon Oliver and Trevor "Who?" Noah I guess. But the whole reason why Colbert worked so well was because his character was satire, not just "Fake news person reads headlines and is angry"?

Why do we need fake news when we have twitter?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:51 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Not all Trump bumper stickers are Trump bumper stickers, though.

Other bumper stickers that you can start counting as Trump stickers:
  • My child beat up your honor student.
  • Calvin peeing on anything.
  • Don't like my driving? Call 1-800-EAT-SHIT
  • Jill Stein 2016
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:51 AM on September 13, 2016 [32 favorites]


Jill Stein 2016
posted by leotrotsky at 9:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ground game report, in a deep red county (Horry County) in South Carolina: a few weeks ago there was nothing listed on Hillary's site happening anywhere closer than over the border in North Carolina, but things are starting to pick up. I submitted my name to the local democrats for volunteering and I'm finally getting calls from them about volunteer opportunities. I got an email from Hillary's campaign this morning to sign up for phone banking in my area, and I'm phone banking this Saturday at an AME church in Conway, SC. I'm also getting trained next week to be a poll watcher on election day in Myrtle Beach. I think there's also a canvassing thing happening next week. The Horry County Democrats are having their campaign office's Grand Opening celebration tonight so I'm sure I'll learn more.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:54 AM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


Other bumper stickers that you can start counting as Trump stickers:

Okay, yeah - can someone please explain to me the whole "STAND UP FOR AMERICA! BE AMERICAN!!" thing? For pity's sake, that's not a dog whistle it's a goddamn foghorn.
posted by Mooski at 9:54 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]




Jill Stein 2016


Also Giant Meteor 2016
posted by zutalors! at 9:55 AM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'd be tempted to add a comma after the name. Too subtle, I know!

Ok, I am totally carrying around a Sharpie in my purse for the sole purpose of doing this. I don't see many of these in NYC, but if I do, I'll be prepared.
posted by holborne at 9:55 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]




Ok, I am totally carrying around a Sharpie in my purse for the sole purpose of doing this. I don't see many of these in NYC, but if I do, I'll be prepared.

Make sure to do it in gold glitter marker.
posted by Talez at 9:59 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trevor Noah last night: "You can't just go around calling half of Trump supporters "a basket of deplorables." The correct term is "a duffel of dip shits." That's what you were looking for there, so try and be accurate."
posted by numaner at 10:02 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Jill Stein 2016

that person definitely loves Trump. they love him and want to kiss him
posted by Greg Nog at 10:02 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump campaign manager on if he would prove he's under audit: Are you calling him a liar?

CNN reporter somehow doesn't answer "Uh, is he lying?"
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:03 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


It doesn’t matter how lovely your family, how honorable your work or service, how devout your faith — if you place ideological adherence or economic self interest above the moral imperative to condemn and denounce a demagogue, then you are deplorable.

I'd again like to applaud Jeff Flake, Lindsay Graham, Ben Sasse, Mitt Romney, Ted Cruz*, and our very own corb for standing up for their values and principles, even though their policy goals are often radically different than my own.

*Dammit.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:06 AM on September 13, 2016 [30 favorites]


that person definitely loves Trump. they love him and want to kiss him

finally we agree. Dr. Jill Stein want to kiss the Donald Trump
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:06 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


I don't know if Ted Cruz really belongs on that list leotrotsky
posted by zutalors! at 10:09 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


The paucity of evidence compared to the Attack-Clinton Industrial Complex actually seems to me to demonstrate the opposite of its claim, but from The Intercept:
Clinton Aides Complain About Double Standard, But Media Also Went After Bush Foundation
posted by XMLicious at 10:12 AM on September 13, 2016


finally we agree. Dr. Jill Stein want to kiss the Donald Trump

Right wing demagogues are good business on the batshit insane left.
posted by Talez at 10:13 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't know if Ted Cruz really belongs on that list leotrotsky

I debated, but I have to give someone credit for doing the right thing in a very visible way, even if his motives might be ...complicated. I can't see into his heart* to know why he did what he did.

*because it's so dark in there, and the brimstone stings my eyes
posted by leotrotsky at 10:13 AM on September 13, 2016 [17 favorites]


sounds like someone didn't purchase my patented X-Ray Specs™
posted by beerperson at 10:14 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


From someone hanging Clinton in effigy from a crane: “Here you are. Got your attention, didn't it?” which feels like it sums up a lot about this election.
posted by holgate at 10:15 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Jill Stein 2016

Around my 'hood I've seen one Stein poster, which says "Vote for the Greater Good, not the Lesser Evil."

My internal reaction is 🍴💩&💀
posted by Existential Dread at 10:15 AM on September 13, 2016 [25 favorites]


From someone hanging Clinton in effigy from a crane: “Here you are. Got your attention, didn't it?” which feels like it sums up a lot about this election.

God, fuck this violent culture.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


Clinton Aides Complain About Double Standard, But Media Also Went After Bush Foundation

...and remember what a huge scandal it was when they got caught deleting 22 million emails and using a private domain? Remember all the congressional hearings and the resignations and the prison sentences?
posted by leotrotsky at 10:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [29 favorites]


Kabuki citizenship

This drives me crazy. I get it, a bunch of westerners saw Kabuki and didn't get what was going on and so assumed that, because it was stylized, it had no connection to reality. I mean, these are the same westerners who insist on calling jingju "Beijing opera" because they saw people singing and assumed it was the same as Italian opera*. If you've seen Kabuki live, however, you know that the actors commit to the truth of their characters just as deeply as their counterparts. I find the use of "Kabuki" as synonym for "bullshit" to be absurd and kind of offensive.

*I mean, this would be like like calling hula "Hawaiian ballet."
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [29 favorites]


From someone hanging Clinton in effigy from a crane: “Here you are. Got your attention, didn't it?” which feels like it sums up a lot about this election.

I drove down to California from Oregon last weekend and saw this. Also, after seeing this asshole going north on I5 the weekend before, I'm pretty much just worried sick all the time at this point.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:20 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


From someone hanging Clinton in effigy from a crane: “Here you are. Got your attention, didn't it?”
The elaborate display put together by Billy Pitner, of Sutherlin, Oregon, consists of a rubber wet suit, adorned with women’s clothing and a blonde wig, hanging by the neck from a construction crane. Signs reading “Vote Trump” and “Treason? Ask her” [also "URANIUM ONE"] hang off the crane, along with several America flags.
I like his initiative and creativity, but that messaging is kind of all over the place.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:21 AM on September 13, 2016


I get it, a bunch of westerners saw Kabuki and didn't get what was going on and so assumed that, because it was stylized, it had no connection to reality.

I think this is a somewhat uncharitable reading of the metaphor. Kabuki isn't a denigration of something normally respected as plain political theatre. I interpret it as meaning something has been accepted by the 'savvy' political class as theatre for so long that the pretense of verisimilitude has been abandoned in favour of well-established traditions of stylized posturing that the intended audience has come to expect.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:32 AM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


Some Republicans are whining because Clinton is not wiping the floor with Trump. OK. I guess it would be too much to ask these guys who are terrified of a Trump Presidency to do something more than wring their hands?

Hillary Clinton and the Republican Congressman are sitting together on the banks of the Trump river as a storm rages on. They know the rising Trump will engulf them both soon. Of the two, only Hillary can swim. "Hillary," the Republican Congressman says, "will you carry me on your back and swim us both to safety?" Hillary replies, "I am afraid to carry you on my back, for I believe that you will sting me." "No!" replies the Congressman, "I promise I will not sting you."

So Hillary takes the Republican Congressman upon her back and steps into the breach of the Trump to swim them both to safety. As they are mid-way across the river, the Republican Congressman cries out "BENGHAZI! PRIVATE EMAIL SERVER!! PNEUMONIA-CONCUSSION-BODY-DOUBLES!!!" Hillary is stung and they are overwhelmed by the Trump. With her last breath, Hillary asks "Why?" and with his last, the Republican Congressman replies "I could not help it, it is my nature..."
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 10:34 AM on September 13, 2016 [74 favorites]


I drove from Seattle to Portland & back over the weekend.

In Seattle, I have seen all of ONE Trump lawn sign (a big one, poorly placed I'm happy to add, and literally the only thing on the block covered in graffiti). I have seen ONE incidence of a Trump bumper sticker months ago, although it was an awful "Trump/Cosby" bumper sticker that still leaves me so disgusted I can't even describe it. But that's it.

Sadly, I saw more than a handful of Trump bumper stickers while in Portland.
Between Olympia (south of Seattle) and Portland, I saw several big Trump banners and signs, usually erected by the freeway on large, mostly undeveloped tracts of land.
(For those familiar with it, the big Uncle Sam marquee on I-5 south of Centralia was of course bugnuts right wing crazy & full of hate for Clinton, too.)


When people say WA and OR are solidly blue states, that's still a matter of people actually putting their vote in when it's time for the election. As with most states, the cities are blue and that's where the largest share of people are, but you can find plenty of red out here, too.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:35 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump campaign manager on if he would prove he's under audit: Are you calling him a liar?

CNN reporter somehow doesn't answer "Uh, is he lying?"


Every on-air interviewer should have a 15-minute list of verified lies Trump has told during the campaign prepared for exactly this occasion.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:35 AM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


Better than that, they should do it real-time whenever he speaks, like Pop Up Video.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:39 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


Given that the GOP congressman is likely a man and white I was expecting the "I can swim" LOTFR ending.

Which, seriously, is how I percieve these whiners. It's another way of attacking, as she isn't good enough to handle such an easy opponent (despite a shit news media and three decades of bullshit), she's too weak, blah blah blah.
posted by Slackermagee at 10:41 AM on September 13, 2016


I do think that Washington Kabuki has become a tired cliche, and really falls down because as exaggerated and ritualized the acting has become, the pretense of reality is still maintained. I think the better metaphor is kayfabe.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:42 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


Washington State is solidly blue in a handful of counties. Maybe just three (King/Pierce/Snohomish). The rest of the state is pretty solidly red with purple patches.
posted by palomar at 10:44 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


My hot take, admittedly ignorant perception of the metaphor is that Kabuki is a highly stylized and exaggerated reflection of reality. It would be absurd for someone to don that costume and act like their character does on stage out in a normal public setting.

If a Kabuki play had a character that was supposed to be a patriotic american, they would look and sound a lot like the highly visible patriots that we're talking about. While that wouldn't look out of place in the play, they certainly look absurd off it. They don't get that it's being dialed up to 11 on the stage and "normal" dials that back to a 3.

Now, off to wikipedia with me to learn about Kabuki!
posted by VTX at 10:44 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think this is a somewhat uncharitable reading of the metaphor.

Your response is a too-charitable reading. Pundits' use of "kabuki" is almost never positive, not educated, but instead explicitly defined, by the pundits themselves, as posturing and as "performance where nothing is done." An excellent article on the subject.

Generally speaking, the least charitable read on how the west is using something from Asia as a metaphor will be the most accurate.
posted by maxsparber at 10:46 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


Also Giant Meteor 2016


I would charitably interpret this bumper sticker as "I hate this horrible election cycle" rather than "I hate Clinton."
posted by C'est la D.C. at 10:48 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yeah I'm unsure why you need the "kabuki" at all. Wouldn't it just be better to just say "theater" and leave it at that?
posted by Tevin at 10:49 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


The "Washington narrative" is more of a soap opera version of reality than anything

It's what politics would look like if you lived in Port Charles
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:52 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


President Obama just Thanks, Obama'd himself. Can't stop giggling.
posted by stolyarova at 10:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [64 favorites]


what does it mean when someone tried to key your bernie bumper sticker off your car before the primaries even started

i live in oakland i can't even imagine who here would feel outraged enough about bernie to do that
posted by burgerrr at 10:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


WaPo: The national media is talking about Trump’s racist campaign. That’s good for Hillary Clinton.

"The battle between the two campaigns over Hillary Clinton’s “basket of deplorables” comment is now fully joined, and it’s becoming increasingly clear that the Clinton campaign has one major strategic goal: to get the national media to talk about Donald Trump’s bigotry and his racist campaign as much as possible."


Artw: Because, let's face it, they won't do it by themselves.

Really, "basket of deplorables" is really brilliant. It's out-Roving Donald: The Karl Rove move is to make your weakness and your opponent's strength their weakness, except some people will shout "stop projecting, you pompous ass!" So what do you do? Get your opponent to make their weakness their battle flag.

Sure, some people wave the Confederate flag with pride, and there is a small fraction of the population that celebrates some part of that Southern history because of something other than racism, but let's be honest: it's always been about racism.

But Donald's campaign wasn't going to say "hey everyone, we're all racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic folks, join us spread our fear and hate!" So Hillary dropped the "basket of deplorables," and his campaign picked it up with glee.

It's been said before: either of the candidates will lose if this general campaign becomes about them. Hillary has to fight against the history of misogyny and pointed attacks against her and her husband, and the line that "she's the most disliked candidate in history ... after her opponent" almost always without anyone clarifing that that has been by design from her history of opponents, not because she's a real life vampire (to clarify, Hillary Clinton is not a vampire). So Hillary and her campaign has smoothly made this about Donald, and he helped them out, time and time again. She's not going to win over the self-described hardcore "deplorables" for this election, but her presidency can win some over going forward. So what does she have to lose? Well, the spotlight on her health non-scandals, for one thing.

She made the coverage about him again, and about his failings. This isn't time for a slow clap, it's time for an ovation.

And before you say it's premature, I'm embracing the joys I find in every-day life. Tomorrow will bring it's own horrors, I don't have to sit here and just wait for them.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [41 favorites]


> " It is synecdoche, synopsis, and metaphor rolled together"

From the article maxsparber linked to above (good article, btw).

And it also nicely summarizes how I'm starting to feel about these threads.
posted by Tevin at 10:54 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wouldn't it just be better to just say "theater" and leave it at that?

Or "charade"
posted by XMLicious at 10:54 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah I'm unsure why you need the "kabuki" at all.

Agreed. Nearly always it means either "bullshit" or "kayfabe," and the listener / reader would probably benefit from the additional clarity of using one of those terms. Plus kayfabe needs to be more broadly known in the political context.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 10:54 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


Metafilter: synecdoche, synopsis, and metaphor rolled together
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:56 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yeah I'm unsure why you need the "kabuki" at all. Wouldn't it just be better to just say "theater" and leave it at that?

I have always interpreted the 'kabuki' portion as indicating highly performative and stylized; theater's increased movements so the cheap seats can see the body language, but doubled again and with bright colors and contrast. But I don't see an issue with calling it a term that should be retired.
posted by phearlez at 10:57 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Good news, whoever had "mid-September" in the pool for when the National Review would surrender to #OkayTrump.

Money quote:
So he has just disappointed, week after week, the frenzied media lynch mob that had implied he was a racist, a misogynist, an inciter of violence, a vulgar buffoon, a member of the Flat Earth Society, an advocate of an automatic firearm for every white seven-year-old American, and probably an enemy of fluoridated drinking water. Of course, it was almost all nonsense, and as Trump has been uncontroversial, it has been Mrs. Clinton who has made the gaffes...
I want to watch the election they're covering.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:57 AM on September 13, 2016 [19 favorites]


1: We're not IMPLYING.
2: Oh, well so long as it was almost all nonsense.
posted by phearlez at 10:58 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald's campaign wasn't going to say "hey everyone, we're all racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic folks, join us spread our fear and hate!" So Hillary dropped the "basket of deplorables," and his campaign picked it up with glee.

It makes me happy to see that the Clinton campaign has at last learned to weaponize cleek's law.

("Today’s conservatism is the opposite of what liberals want today, updated daily.")
posted by Gelatin at 10:59 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


cman: I think that it is human nature that after a certain amount of time, privileges start to feel like rights.

I agree, but in some cases, this is tricky territory when it comes to legal recourse and enforcement. Fun fact: in the US, by not stopping people from accessing public lands, especially/ specifically public beaches, that access can become public access.
In addition to interpreting and enforcing the public trust right of access, states may also provide the public with a right of access to and along the beach through the application of laws such as the traditional or customary use doctrine; prescriptive easements; express, implied, or mandatory dedication; and eminent domain.
Source: Surfrider Foundation's Beachapedia article on Beach Access.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:59 AM on September 13, 2016


soren_lorensen: Iiiii'm not sure they're trying to be ironic [about embracing "deplorable"]. I think a certain subset are pretty proud of being terrible people. Edgelords gonna edge.

Related: The strange story of how internet superfans reclaimed the insult ‘trash’ (webpage title: Why Hamilton fans call themselves “trash” on the internet)

But self-embracing "deplorables" are embracing their racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic views and actions that lead to actual emotional and physical suffering for others, where Hamilton (and other) fans are embracing their extreme fandom, which hurts no one.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:02 AM on September 13, 2016


While we have the baskets out for sorting 'deplorables', I wish more people would mention how revoltingly deplorable Mike Pence's record on LGBTQ issues is.
posted by puddledork at 11:03 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


Obama is on, as usual. I am so glad I got to see him speak in person before.
posted by cashman at 11:04 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


From someone hanging Clinton in effigy from a crane: “Here you are. Got your attention, didn't it?”
The elaborate display put together by Billy Pitner, of Sutherlin, Oregon, consists of a rubber wet suit, adorned with women’s clothing and a blonde wig, hanging by the neck from a construction crane. Signs reading “Vote Trump” and “Treason? Ask her” [also "URANIUM ONE"] hang off the crane, along with several America flags.
I like his initiative and creativity, but that messaging is kind of all over the place.


Indeed. Someone on 18" stilts, and wearing a grass skirt, an eyepatch, a Stetson, and playing a mandolin would probably get your attention too, but to no coherent end.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:05 AM on September 13, 2016


Good news, whoever had "mid-September" in the pool for when the New Republic would surrender to #OkayTrump.

Uhhh that is the National Review, not the New Republic. They are conservative magazine, and as such are total dumb dumbs who can't read polls.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:06 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]




guys

it's Conrad Black

the man is pond scum
posted by mightygodking at 11:08 AM on September 13, 2016 [21 favorites]


Listening to NPR yesterday they did long pieces on how Clinton is in trouble and needs to pull of the tailspin of the last week. The fact that she's ahead in the polls and nearly always has been didn't come up.
posted by bongo_x at 11:09 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


Somebody fainted at the rally Obama is speaking at in Philadelphia. Obama handled it as he usually does - said someone fainted, and told ems they're near the front. Then he led the crowd in saying "bend your knees - don't lock 'em". And he said "we'll do a little exercise" and the crowd was bouncing along with him. Then he kept talking.

I love when he has these rallies because it feels like the world makes sense again. He says things that make complete sense. He engenders confidence in America as a good place with good people in it who can do good things together. That's how a president should make you feel.
posted by cashman at 11:09 AM on September 13, 2016 [89 favorites]


it's Conrad Black

the man is pond scum deplorable

Fixed.
posted by Gelatin at 11:10 AM on September 13, 2016 [23 favorites]


I like Samantha Bee but I don't really get her point of view. She's just kinda omnidirectional mad at stuff?

At least she's better than Jon Oliver and Trevor "Who?" Noah I guess. But the whole reason why Colbert worked so well was because his character was satire, not just "Fake news person reads headlines and is angry"?


I really like Samantha Bee and Jon Oliver. YMMV.

Colbert was specifically satirizing Bill O'Reilly. He's still very popular but almost not relevant anymore, at least not how he used to be. I loved Colbert, but his show satirized a type of conservative who is not nearly as powerful these days.
posted by krinklyfig at 11:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Yeah, my fingers got ahead of my brain there. Edited out the typo.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:11 AM on September 13, 2016


Listening to NPR yesterday they did long pieces on how Clinton is in trouble

fortunately, a girl in trouble is a temporary thing
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [17 favorites]


Listening to NPR yesterday they did long pieces on how Clinton is in trouble and needs to pull of the tailspin of the last week. The fact that she's ahead in the polls and nearly always has been didn't come up.

Silly, going against the media's narrative with mere facts!
posted by Gelatin at 11:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


The fact that she's ahead in the polls and nearly always has been didn't come up.

NPR is on my shitlist for the foreseeable future because of their terrible election coverage. "Foreseeable" here may mean "until the election is over", it's hard for me to imagine such a time.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 11:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


angrycat: If I came across a car with a sticker that said "trump that bitch" I would key the fuck out of it. I know that's wrong. I don't care.

Too-Ticky: I'd be tempted to add a comma after the name. Too subtle, I know!

Back in college, a friend and I realized a great way to "reply" to offensive and annoying bumper stickers: add another one that simply says "with cheese!" The message either becomes silly or completely absurd.

Sadly, I have yet to order those stickers, but I'm really tempted to throw my designs up on RedBubble and buy them for myself (unless anyone can suggest a cheaper route for a small order of 20 or so). Then again, I may chicken out when I have the sticker in hand, for fear of getting punched.

Nah, I think this election cycle has raised my ire to the point I would throw that sticker on a lot of cars.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:13 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


So Hillary and her campaign has smoothly made this about Donald, and he helped them out, time and time again.

The beauty of going up against a narcissistic sociopath.
posted by chris24 at 11:14 AM on September 13, 2016


Obama talking about Trump's foundation compared to the Clinton foundation. Says (and I'm paraphrasing) 'one is saving lives around the world while Trump used other people's charity donations to buy a 6-foot-tall painting of himself. ....at least he didn't go for the 10 foot version but...'
posted by cashman at 11:14 AM on September 13, 2016 [20 favorites]


I love when he has these rallies because it feels like the world makes sense again. He says things that make complete sense.

It's because Obama is a very grounded, empathetic human being. He's a rare creature in politics for that reason.
posted by krinklyfig at 11:15 AM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


I liked Sam Bee a lot more before I found out her husband was essentially lobbying to keep their kids' Upper West Side schools segregated and telling other parents not to talk to the media about it.
posted by dialetheia at 11:16 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]



guys

it's Conrad Black

the man is pond scum


Yeah, I don't think anybody who's heard of him is surprised he wrote it, but NRO publishing it is hilarious.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:16 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Obama: I know...we're a restless country. We always like the new, shiny thing. I benefited from that when I was a candidate. But we need to remember and understand the steady, and the true. And Hillary is steady.

...She's in the arena, and you gotta get in there with her! Democracy is not a spectator sport.
posted by cashman at 11:18 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


Obama: You gotta talk to your friends! Including your republican friends!

me: shit
posted by cashman at 11:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [35 favorites]


Convicted felon Conrad Black. Now that's the endorsement you want. I guess Lord Black can sympathize with Donald since he too has a preternatural habit of swindling. From being kicked out of Canada's toniest prep school for selling stolen exams to being kicked out of the US just because he had the foresight to know the newspaper business was done for and saw the perfect opportunity to run a Producers style scheme of embezzlement hidden under losses, Black has always been spiritual kith and kin to Trump.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 11:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Speaking of NPR and how they've finally made it onto my shitlist, I need moar podcasts. I listen to a lot of podcasts already--while I run, while I'm walking to/from my car after work, and while I'm falling asleep at night (it helps my anxiety and keeps me from lying there thinking that every single noise I hear is my house falling apart and Roman Mars is aural ambien). If I want to also listen to podcasts while commuting, I'm gonna need a bigger boat.

My current list:
99% Invisible
Criminal
Imaginary Worlds
Invisibilia
Keepin it 1600
Oh No, Ross and Carrie
Planet Money
Pop Culture Happy Hour
Radio Free GOP (which I don't always listen to becasue the AM Talk Radio presentation style is just nails-on-chalkboard to me and also I'm not a Republican)
RadioLab
Reply All
Science Vs.
Trumpcast
The Broad Experience
This American Life

Please, election thread denizens, help keep me from giving into the siren song of NPR on my car radio. Suggest more podcasts like above.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:21 AM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


Christ, that NRO piece is some of the most pompous shit I've seen in a long time. I couldn't even get through an entire paragraph without my eyes rolling until I'd lost my place. Something about it being written by a "lord" just makes it extra ridiculous.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:23 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


....Suggest more podcasts like above.

I listen to:
With Her
The Run-Up
FiveThirtyEight Elections
Modern Love
The Splendid Table
In The Dark
The Way I Heard it, with Mike Rowe
Casefile True Crime
posted by Jacob G at 11:25 AM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


Kind of inside baseball, but Chapo Trap House.
posted by arm426 at 11:26 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Politically Reactive, Hari Kondabolu and W. Kamau Bell's election/current events podcast! I'm really loving it so far, they've got great interviews and they're thoughtful and funny.
posted by yasaman at 11:27 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Speaking of the New Republic (lol) just published: The Media Is Botching the Election
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:27 AM on September 13, 2016


Convicted felon Conrad Black. Now that's the endorsement you want. I guess Lord Black can sympathize with Donald since he too has a preternatural habit of swindling. From being kicked out of Canada's toniest prep school for selling stolen exams to being kicked out of the US just because he had the foresight to know the newspaper business was done for and saw the perfect opportunity to run a Producers style scheme of embezzlement hidden under losses, Black has always been spiritual kith and kin to Trump.

Not to mention the "temporary" renouncement of his Canadian citizenship so he could sit in the House of Lords, only to "forget" to reapply for it because of his legal problems. For guys like Black and Trump, the rules aren't supposed to apply and there's always a reason why they shouldn't be accountable.
posted by nubs at 11:28 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Whistlestop is about presidential elections of the past, with a wink to what's going on in the current one.
posted by Etrigan at 11:29 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


I liked Sam Bee a lot more before I found out her husband was essentially lobbying to keep their kids' Upper West Side schools segregated and telling other parents not to talk to the media about it.

Ignoring for a second this wonderful mirror of a woman, once again, being inadvertently harmed by her husband's political positions, do you have a link that actually demonstrates Jones' opposition to the move? Because all he says in your article is the media will misconstrue whatever you say to them regardless of which side you're on - a statement shocking only for its banality, coming from a Daily Show correspondent.
posted by one_bean at 11:29 AM on September 13, 2016 [18 favorites]


Speaking of the New Republic (lol) just published: The Media Is Botching the Election

"The press is not a pro-democracy trade, it is a pro-media trade. By and large, it doesn’t act as a guardian of civic norms and liberal institutions—except when press freedoms and access itself are at stake"

I think there are some good points in that article; didn't a reporter yesterday make a half-joking tweet about the fact that a Trump presidency would be good for business?
posted by nubs at 11:34 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


do you have a link that actually demonstrates Jones' opposition to the move?

One P.S. 452 parent speaking out against the move is comedian and former Daily Show correspondent Jason Jones, who’s married to Samantha Bee. "To portray any opposition as classist or racist is as bad as it can get," Jones told WNYC. And elsewhere: "We are not divided,” he said at a public hearing about the proposal, “we are absolutely united in wanting what's best for our children," then encouraged fellow parents not to talk to the press about the controversy.
posted by dialetheia at 11:37 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Field report 2: Big billboard on the side of I-35: big, floating HRC and HO portraits on one side, and kindly-smiling realtor portrait on the other. Text: "LEAVING THE COUNTRY AFTER THE ELECTION? LET ME SELL YOUR HOUSE!"

Had to laugh.
posted by rp at 11:39 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


MSM all but handed him the primary with the constant barrage of what he was doing. All the outrageous stuff he was spouting was front and center and attracted all those deplorable voters. When the CEO of CBS actually says "he's not good for America but he's good for business," you know where their fucking priority lies.
posted by numaner at 11:39 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Great contrast. MSNBC shows Obama in Philadelphia on a Sunny day, near the art museum I believe, with a huge crowd of diverse, happy people. The sun gleaming down and people wearing sunglasses, and it just looked like a bright, gleeful occasion in the place people identify with the creation of America.

Then after covering some Hillary news - we knew she was releasing more medical records, they confirmed they'd be out in the next day, and would have nothing previously undisclosed - they showed tape of where Trump had been speaking.

Trump had spoken in Clive, IA, indoors, in a dark space where only he was visible while he talked. When they pulled back to do the post-event reporting, the space was still dark and looked like a high school gym sized space with what you'd expect his crowd to look like. I think MSNBC showed tape of him for about a minute, and he packed in at least 4 lies, including the ridiculousness of saying that "everything she's ever done has been a disaster".

But the contrast was just huge. One campaign is in the light, with a diverse group of people, talking about how we can work together to be better. The other is in the dark, in what literally almost looked like a basement, spouting lies and nonsense in a setting you'd expect of some group plotting to do something terrible.

And now, I'm back to not watching the talking heads for a while longer. I'd only tuned in because the stream I had was messing up.
posted by cashman at 11:40 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Hoover was an engineer.

Damn.
posted by The World Famous at 11:40 AM on September 13, 2016 [92 favorites]


....Suggest more podcasts like above.

Dan Carlin's Hardcore History. Anything to do with the fall of empires and the end of ages. I just finished up a 5 hour podcast on the end of the Persian Empire at Alexander's hands, from the perspective of the Persians. Sobering as all hell.
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:42 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


Mods, please permaban The World Famous for that horrible damn joke.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 11:42 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


This two-image tweet might be my favorite reaction to the National Review piece
posted by Greg Nog at 11:43 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


One P.S. 452 parent speaking out against the move is comedian and former Daily Show correspondent Jason Jones

Interestingly, that article links and cites as its source the original article dialetheia linked to. Which doesn't actually state whether Jones is for or against the move. He says calling those opposed classist is bad. He also says later in the article that people complaining the school would "change" if it moved show little respect for the teachers. He calls out both sides (or rather, calls out those on both sides who are insulting the other side).
posted by Roommate at 11:45 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


I recently re-watched the great 1994 documentary The War Room, which follows the 1992 Clinton campaign from primaries to election day. It's an amazing time capsule, notable not only for how startlingly young both Bill and Hillary were then, but also for how vastly different the whole process was then as compared to now—simpler and, for lack of a better word, more naïve.

Also, there's the wonderful moment where campaign strategist James Carville gives his final pep talk to the troops on the eve of the election. Now, love Carville or loathe him, can you imagine anyone from the Trump campaign—Lewandowski, Manafort, Conway, Bannon—delivering such a spontaneous, humane, and human speech as this?
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:46 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


New thread, new weirdest derail. #2016
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:47 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Mods, please permaban The World Famous for that horrible damn joke.

I'm a dad. I can't help it.
posted by The World Famous at 11:50 AM on September 13, 2016 [23 favorites]


There is no rail anymore.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 11:51 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


[Folks, maybe let's drop the Samantha-Bee's-husband thing?]
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


Anybody who thinks somebody is going to get permabanned for horrible (awesome) jokes based on wordplay obviously doesn't remember that cortex is in charge these days.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


I dunno I've been tracking the derails and these are pretty middling, relatively speaking.
posted by Tevin at 11:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]




Steven Seagal is a real person

OK, I meant the characters in macho wish fulfilment movies generally, but not even Steven Seagal actually walks through restaurants flipping black ops baddies with his pinky.
posted by zennie at 12:01 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ciquizza: The Fix
The West Wing Weekly
So That Happened
Best of the Left
Off Message
Primary Concerns
No One Knows Anything
Politico's 2016 Nerdcast
Slate's Political Gabfest
Vox's The Weeds
Just subscribed, have not listened yet: The Politics Guys
Plus others mentioned previously
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:02 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


The elaborate display put together by Billy Pitner, of Sutherlin, Oregon, consists of a rubber wet suit, adorned with women’s clothing and a blonde wig, hanging by the neck from a construction crane. Signs reading “Vote Trump” and “Treason? Ask her” [also "URANIUM ONE"] hang off the crane, along with several America flags.

I like his initiative and creativity, but that messaging is kind of all over the place.
Every Presidential election year, a guy on one of the main roads through my town cobbles together a big sign from scraps of lumber and plywood, and spraypaints it with inarticulate rage-filled fox news word salad. Like, you can drive by it two dozen times and read all of the individual words, but it gives you a headache and refuses to coalesce into anything resembling a coherent message or idea.

This spring it was something about Obama Bin Laden Hillary Navy Seals Benghazi LIAR FOR PRESIDENT??? Then I think someone stole the sign, and I'm a little disappointed he hasn't replaced it.
posted by usonian at 12:07 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm a dad. I can't help it.

We caught you now Tim Kaine. Now we know why it seems the campaign is reading these threads.
posted by VTX at 12:12 PM on September 13, 2016 [17 favorites]


Podcast suggestions:

Politically Reactive with W. Kamau Bell and Hari Kondabolu -- this week's has a great interview with Shaun King.

I also have been enjoying Throwing Shade, looking at "the issues that affect ladies... and gays!"
posted by waitangi at 12:21 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


All you really need to know about today's Republican Party:

By a 59/8 spread, Trump voters in Virginia say they have a higher opinion of Vladimir Putin than Hillary Clinton.

But Clinton up 8% head to head, 6% in 4-way in VA. (PPPPolls)
posted by chris24 at 12:24 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


Mental health podcasts for soren-lorenson, from someone who can't even the CBC any more:

- All in the Mind (ABC-Australia on psych)
- Futility Closet (Odd little stories from history, plus logic puzzles)
- Future Tense (ABC-Australia on science and tech)
- Heavyweight (Jonathan Goldstein's new show for Gimlet after leaving Wiretap: episodes upcoming)
- How to be Amazing with Michael Ian Black (the Tim Gunn episode is a standout)
- In Our Time (Melvyn Bragg has Very Smart People come in to discuss the arts, history, science, whatever. Good to listen to and to fall asleep to)
- Longform (Writers talk about writing. Usually very informative and soothing)
- The Memory Palace (Tiny stories and insights from history, beautifully presented. Nate DiMeo is the anti-Dan Carlin in scope and tone, not that I'm dissing Carlin)
- The Moth (Storytime!)
- Popup Ideas (Anthro, culture and social science -- kind of like CBC's Ideas, but a limited run. Over when it's over. Sorry.)
- Something About the Beatles (If you like the Beatles and want to geek out on interpersonal relationships, isolated tracks, etc.)
- Song Exploder (How did that song get made? Recently: Bojack Horseman theme, Grimes, Andrew Bird)
- The Story Collider (Moth-esque true tales of science - often the best thing I hear all week)
- The Why Factor (BBC pop science that isn't stupid, each episode about a specific question)
- You Must Remember This (Karina Longworth dives deep into old Hollywood)
posted by maudlin at 12:24 PM on September 13, 2016 [40 favorites]


I have just requested 11/8 and 11/9 as days off from my office, because I will either be celebrating and then sleeping, or not celebrating and then sleeping.
posted by chonus at 12:25 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


"this economy, amirite?" has just become a meme even among people who are doing just fine

Honestly, thank god Obama's policies seem to have worked, because we'd be fucked this year if the economy really was as bad as Rs pretend.


From Joseph Stiglitz last year: Inequality is now killing middle America
The Case-Deaton results show that such theories will no longer do. America is becoming a more divided society – divided not only between whites and African Americans, but also between the 1% and the rest, and between the highly educated and the less educated, regardless of race. And the gap can now be measured not just in wages, but also in early deaths. White Americans, too, are dying earlier as their incomes decline.

This evidence is hardly a shock to those of us studying inequality in America. The median income of a full-time male employee is lower than it was 40 years ago. Wages of male high school graduates have plummeted by some 19% in the period studied by Case and Deaton.

To stay above water, many Americans borrowed from banks at usurious interest rates. In 2005, President George W. Bush’s administration made it far more difficult for households to declare bankruptcy and write off debt. Then came the financial crisis, which cost millions of Americans their jobs and homes. When unemployment insurance, designed for short-term bouts of joblessness in a full-employment world, ran out, they were left to fend for themselves, with no safety net (beyond food stamps), while the government bailed out the banks that had caused the crisis.

The basic perquisites of a middle-class life were increasingly beyond the reach of a growing share of Americans. The Great Recession had shown their vulnerability. Those who had invested in the stock market saw much of their wealth wiped out; those who had put their money in safe government bonds saw retirement income diminish to near zero, as the Fed relentlessly drove down both short- and long-term interest rates. With college tuition soaring, the only way their children could get the education that would provide a modicum of hope was to borrow; but, with education loans virtually never dischargeable, student debt seemed even worse than other forms of debt.

There was no way that this mounting financial pressure could not have placed middle-class Americans and their families under greater stress. And it is not surprising that this has been reflected in higher rates of drug abuse, alcoholism, and suicide.

I was chief economist of the World Bank in the late 1990s, when we began to receive similarly depressing news from Russia. Our data showed that GDP had fallen some 30% since the collapse of the Soviet Union. But we weren’t confident in our measurements. Data showing that male life expectancy was declining, even as it was increasing in the rest of the world, confirmed the impression that things were not going very well in Russia, especially outside of the major cities.

The international Commission on the Measurement of Economic Performance and Social Progress, which I co-chaired and on which Deaton served, had earlier emphasised that GDP often is not a good measure of a society’s wellbeing. These new data on white Americans’ declining health status confirms this conclusion. The world’s quintessential middle-class society is on the way to becoming its first former middle-class society.
posted by naju at 12:28 PM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump's Court Jesters: Meet the worst political team ever assembled—an inner circle of outcasts, opportunists, and extremists with nowhere else to go.
posted by peeedro at 12:30 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Inequality is now killing middle America

All of that is true and perhaps more so for people of color. But only white people are turning to fascism.
posted by chris24 at 12:31 PM on September 13, 2016 [28 favorites]


WashingtonKayfabe.com is an available domain in case any of you intelligent people want to start a political commentary blog.

(Because it's 2003.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:31 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


All of that is true and perhaps more so for people of color. But only white people are turning to fascism.

Sure, but I was addressing the notion that this is all just a Republican made-up meme and the economy isn't that bad. It really is bizarre when the Republicans seem to be more accurate and outspoken on economic inequality than the Democrats are. One of the ways this election year has felt like upside down world to me.
posted by naju at 12:37 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Not to mention Trump voters tend to be wealthier than Hillary's. But, yup, it's about the economy.
posted by asteria at 12:38 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


It really is bizarre when the Republicans seem to be more accurate and outspoken on economic inequality than the Democrats are.

Cite?
posted by zutalors! at 12:38 PM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


Republicans are addressing income inequality more than Hillary or the Dems?

Where?
posted by asteria at 12:39 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


It really is bizarre when the Republicans seem to be more accurate and outspoken on economic inequality than the Democrats are.

Sorry but the party wanting tax breaks for the rich and to end the inheritance tax is not more accurate and outspoken on income equality.
posted by chris24 at 12:40 PM on September 13, 2016 [29 favorites]


Republicans are addressing income inequality more than Hillary or the Dems

confusedScoobyDooSound.mp3
posted by emjaybee at 12:41 PM on September 13, 2016 [27 favorites]


Sorry but the party wanting tax breaks for the rich and to end the inheritance tax is not more accurate on income equality.

Yeah, I agree with those above -- Sanders did good work in putting income inequality on the national agenda, but said inequality is caused by policies favored by Republican elites. That Republican voters don't necessarily benefit from said policies has been known for quite some time.
posted by Gelatin at 12:43 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


(Because it's 2003.)

Uh well then I'd better register KayfabePundit.com instead
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:43 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


This spring it was something about Obama Bin Laden Hillary Navy Seals Benghazi LIAR FOR PRESIDENT???

I saw a very similar sign in a more...rustic part of my state the other day. It was pretty large, and appeared to have been custom-printed onto a vinyl banner, which can't have been cheap. It was hung on a piece of farm equipment in a field by the road – on some kind of boom, in fact, which had been raised to place the banner in the optimal in-your-face position for passing motorists.

Then I saw another such banner in a different field in the same area. And the next day, I saw a giant hand-lettered sign on the back of a beat-up old pickup (driven by an old white guy, natch).

Each of them was a riot of different colors and fonts, with LOTS OF ALL-CAPS and Random Things in BOLD and Italics. None of them had any comprehensible message or argument – just a bunch of alarmist shrieking about Benghazi and emails and Hillary is the DEVIL and a corrupt incompetent liar. Both the design and the content of the text were very much like Time Cube, or any other conspiracy site.

So: it's a thing. Who needs facts or logic, when a sufficiently rabid froth of acrimony, bluster, and scaremongering makes you the dick-swingin'est, dare-you-to-start-somethin' tough guy in the holler? No wonder these guys love Trump: he may be a New Yorker born with a silver spoon in his mouth, but in terms of sheer jackassery, he really is one of them.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 12:44 PM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


custom-printed onto a vinyl banner, which can't have been cheap

Actually those are pretty cheap online these days. So if you wanted to, for example, print a banner that said TACO TRUCKS AND LESBIAN FARMERS YEAH!!! you could get that done for not that much.
posted by emjaybee at 12:46 PM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


Conway is at it again



Conway: "This is the tradition of the Trump campaign, now. We talk about policy every single day."
[...] I'm just so proud, Andrea [Mitchell] to be work in a campaign that is tackling this. Republicans usually do not tackle this, particularly at the Presidential level. It's like let's just look the other way. What does it not poll well? In other words we are trying to capture the culture here and have policy responses to whatever is frustrating or concerning or even animating and exciting people. And so if you look at this plan, and the whole plan will be revealed, there will be an op ed, there's a plan, there's background, there are experts to be consulted-- it's really exciting that we've got Hillary Clinton talking about she's always been fighting for children. She fights for children. We can't really find a lot about her childcare policy on her website. Maybe they are putting it up now as I speak to you, but we know they talk about it, but we're actually going to do it.

We actually-- this is the tradition of the Trump campaign, now. We talk about policy every single day. Law enforcement, defeating radical Islam, middle class tax relief, we'll be talking about what's next after ObamaCare soon, we talked about school choice and charters last week, the military yesterday, today is childcare. So we're always doing something to answer those questions that voters legitimately have, Andrea, which is what will you do as Commander-in-Chief?
MSNBC points out Clinton has more policy on site. Conway: Sounds like something a politician and a bureaucrat does
Well the hundred and one thousand words definitely sounds like something a politician and a bureaucrat does. They do it with our tax codes, they do it on their websites. If we're going to run this election expecting the voters to go to our websites and figure out what these people believe on policy, I respect the voters more than that. I think they'd prefer these candidates come to them or at least make public statements, where you have a four or five point, ten point road map in the case of our Veteran's Administration reform plan, Andrea. This idea that we're going to do it on websites is just, basically, Clinton's going to fly around just raising money and not talking to voters? I think it's a losing formula and I think they stick with it.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:47 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


emjaybee, I don't understand why you left out the question mark that made it clear I was questioning something.
posted by asteria at 12:49 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


They do it with our tax codes, they do it on their websites. If we're going to run this election expecting the voters to go to our websites and figure out what these people believe on policy, I respect the voters more than that.

IDK why this stuff isn't the thing that makes this election "upside down world" instead of supposed great Republican talking points for the poor.
posted by zutalors! at 12:51 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Well the hundred and one thousand words definitely sounds like something a politician and a bureaucrat does. If we're going to run this election expecting the voters to go to our websites and figure out what these people believe on policy, I respect the voters more than that.

Talk about a post-policy candidate.

We don't need all them words to express our positions! Think of all the work that would take, and then we've have to start all over tomorrow when he changes his mind!
posted by leotrotsky at 12:51 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


if you wanted to, for example, print a banner that said TACO TRUCKS AND LESBIAN FARMERS YEAH!!!

If, you say?

(Only $42 from VistaPrint – not bad!)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 12:52 PM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


the Republicans seem to be more accurate and outspoken on economic inequality than the Democrats

Also, we just had the best Census Report on Income and Poverty in history. With record levels of income growth for the lower and middle class and the biggest drop in poverty in 48 years. After the implementation of Obamacare and tax hikes on the rich by Democrats.
posted by chris24 at 12:52 PM on September 13, 2016 [32 favorites]


I was questioning the whole idea, not your restatement of it in particular, asteria!
posted by emjaybee at 12:53 PM on September 13, 2016


Also, we just had the best Census Report on Income and Poverty in history. With record levels of income growth for the lower and middle class and the biggest drop in poverty in 48 years. After the implementation of Obamacare and tax hikes on the rich by Democrats.

Both the stock market and the broader economy are doing decent as well.

“The U.S. LEI picked up again in July, suggesting moderate economic growth should continue through the end of 2016,” said Ataman Ozyildirim, Director of Business Cycles and Growth Research at The Conference Board. “There may even be some moderate upside growth potential if recent improvements in manufacturing and construction are sustained, and average consumer expectations don’t deteriorate further.”

Call it Trickle-Up Economics. You help the poor and middle class, and golly gee they buy stuff!
posted by leotrotsky at 12:56 PM on September 13, 2016 [24 favorites]


Calm down, when I said Republicans seem more concerned than Democrats, it's because of these two things I quoted directly from this thread:

1. "this economy, amirite?" has just become a meme even among people who are doing just fine

2. Honestly, thank god Obama's policies seem to have worked, because we'd be fucked this year if the economy really was as bad as Rs pretend.

If this is a sign of how Democrats are thinking then lord help us.

Trump would be a disaster, no doubt about it. But it's worth nothing that the Republican platform right now is in favor of breaking up the big banks, reinstating Glass-Steagal, and is strongly (rather than kinda-weakly, in Clinton's case) opposed to the TPP which would be outrageous. He's interested in renegotiating NAFTA. These are things people want, and there's a progressive case for them. It's upside-down world that this is all happening within the Republican party this year.

The Dems have said "America never stopped being great." Trump's reply was more or less on target: "Our country does not feel 'great already' to the millions of wonderful people living in poverty, violence and despair." His solutions are pretty horrifying. But it's weird and offputting how much people want to ignore the economy, and for all his many faults he's pounded on that message consistently.
posted by naju at 12:57 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


And the stock market's doing relatively decent as well.

S&P is up 264% since his inauguration.
posted by chris24 at 1:00 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


the Republican platform right now is in favor of breaking up the big banks, reinstating Glass-Steagal,

You seriously think the GOP House and Senate will forward that bill to Trump?

Trump's reply was more or less on target: "Our country does not feel 'great already' to the millions of wonderful people living in poverty, violence and despair."

I think you mean "I'm losing my white privilege" to the millions of racists and fascists. Because funny how they didn't act like this when the economy was unfair and shitty under Bush.
posted by chris24 at 1:04 PM on September 13, 2016 [29 favorites]


We're not ignoring the economy, it is actually doing better. The twitter left are the one ignoring the actual numbers on the economy in favor of dank Stalin memes. Capitalism isn't fixed, but Obama has been fixing it, and Hillary is pledging to continue his policies. Give them credit for doing so or be as adrift from reality as the Hillarymen.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:05 PM on September 13, 2016 [25 favorites]


But it's weird and offputting how much people want to ignore the economy, and for all his many faults he's pounded on that message consistently.

He only pounds on the parts of the economy that he can easily blame on a scapegoat. If all you hear is "The economy is bad-" then you're missing the 2nd part of his message: "-because of them."
posted by FJT at 1:07 PM on September 13, 2016 [24 favorites]


"this economy, amirite?" has just become a meme even among people who are doing just fine

Notice this was couched as a musing rather than a statement of fact and that I suggested that actually when people complain about the economy what they maybe should be complaining about is a lack of social safety net (because no economy in the history of ever has been without cyclical growth and contraction). Because I have seen people doing this in front of my eyes, people who I know for a fact have very comfortable upper middle class lives but bitch endlessly about how the "economy these days" is getting them down even though all major indicators are plenty up, nationally and for them personally. Well-off people complaining about the terrible, terrible no-good economy that is totes effecting them personally is definitely a thing, and seems to be an inability to recognize that a black guy and the federal government completely saved their personal bacon.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:07 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


But it's weird and offputting how much people want to ignore the economy, and for all his many faults he's pounded on that message consistently.
Thank goodness Hillary's got our backs, then.
posted by xyzzy at 1:07 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


The Dems have said "America never stopped being great." Trump's reply was more or less on target: "Our country does not feel 'great already' to the millions of wonderful people living in poverty, violence and despair."

Except that when asked about the economy, minorities (who, let's remember, were impacted much more deeply by the Great Recession) have been optimistic about the economy. "Economic anxiety" is a purely racial phenomenon, and that's because it's not really about the economy, but about race and privilege.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:08 PM on September 13, 2016 [25 favorites]


Call it Trickle-Up Economics. You help the poor and middle class, and golly gee they buy stuff!

Another of those quiet Obama policies: sunsetting the top-end Bush tax cut amid all of the shutdowns and artificial debt crises generated by the House.

And Conway's tactics again remind us that the TV prohibition on the word "bullshit" is harmful. She's proficient in duckspeak:
The speech had been proceeding for perhaps twenty minutes when a messenger hurried on to the platform and a scrap of paper was slipped into the speaker's hand. He unrolled and read it without pausing in his speech. Nothing altered in his voice or manner, or in the content of what he was saying, but suddenly the names were different. Without words said, a wave of understanding rippled through the crowd. Oceania was at war with Eastasia! The next moment there was a tremendous commotion. The banners and posters with which the square was decorated were all wrong! Quite half of them had the wrong faces on them. It was sabotage! The agents of Goldstein had been at work!
posted by holgate at 1:10 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


the Hillarymen.

the who now? wait, is she assembling a ruthless, loyal army of soldier-fanatics answerable only to her?

is there a website or brochure with more information on this...?
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:10 PM on September 13, 2016 [22 favorites]


How the 2016 Election Killed the Golden Calf of Economic Growth
Despite the fact that the United States’ GDP now exceeds pre-crisis levels by over $2 trillion, and the unemployment rate is at a post-recession low of 4.9 percent, a growing proportion of the American electorate is not impressed. Economic growth has returned, the voters have understood, but that has by no means correlated with an economic system that works for them.

Bernie Sanders’s insurgent campaign was propelled by different data: gaping income inequality, stagnant wages, the amount of growth siphoned off by the 1 percent, and the underemployment rate. Donald Trump’s campaign has partly been a cri de coeur against a neoliberal consensus that had favored trade deals at the expense of manufacturing jobs in the United States. Both candidates, using new economic criteria, brought new voters into the fold and have helped lay the foundation for an alternative way to determine whether the economy is doing what it should be doing.
Also from the piece:
A deluge of academic research has confirmed that economic growth is not a reliable indicator of broad-based economic health. The greatest contribution to this field in recent years has been Thomas Piketty’s totemic work, Capital in the Twenty-First Century, which argued that over the last four decades the overwhelming majority of the population in the United States has witnessed a relative decline in income and standard of living—all while economic growth has continued apace.
posted by naju at 1:12 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


It seems to me that the stock market's strength is less and less indicative of the lived experience and relative prosperity of ordinary Americans, presumably because of the gap between productivity and real wages that's opened up since the 1970s. (Note: this is my thoroughly non-economist presumption)

But that poverty report does seems to be unequivocally good news in a year that's been pretty bereft thereof. President Obama looks pretty happy about it.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:12 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


the Hillarymen.

the who now? wait, is she assembling a ruthless, loyal army of soldier-fanatics answerable only to her?

is there a website or brochure with more information on this...?


Just listen for the swooshing of the matching pantsuits.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:13 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


"Economic anxiety" is a purely racial phenomenon, and that's because it's not really about the economy, but about race and privilege.

What the what? Are you suggesting that when white people living in poverty are unhappy about it, it simply doesn't matter because minorities are "optimistic" about the economy? Because that's how this comment reads to me, although I'm open to clarification.

Can we not allow that for a large portion of the white people in our economy, things are progressively getting worse (or it seems that way to them), and they are allowed to feel upset about that? It's this kind of rhetoric (white people aren't allowed to feel a certain way that legitimately has NOTHING to do with race) that is polarizing the race and leading people to Trump.
posted by permiechickie at 1:16 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]




How the 2016 Election Killed the Golden Calf of Economic Growth

Ok, so this article focuses as much on Sanders turning around the income equality conversation as Trump and Republicans. Things that either were already part of Clinton's platform or became part of it. So how does this show that Republicans are more focused than Dems?
posted by chris24 at 1:17 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Well, the stock market not completely shitting the bed is good news for the 88 million Americans whose retirement accounts are tied up in it. (Leaving aside for the moment the fact that they shouldn't be, but right now it is what it is and workers can't really do anything about it short of organizing on a massive scale.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:18 PM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Worth noting that when I said the Dems don't seem all that concerned about the economy, I'm simultaneously getting two replies: "What?! That's nonsense" and "the economy is doing better than ever and people are doing great." So, uh.
posted by naju at 1:18 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


It seems to me that the stock market's strength is less and less indicative of the lived experience and relative prosperity of ordinary Americans

True, but for middle class Americans with 401Ks or IRAs, it's huge.
posted by chris24 at 1:19 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


if you wanted to, for example, print a banner that said TACO TRUCKS AND LESBIAN FARMERS YEAH!!! you could get that done for not that much.

I could get behind a campaign to add official-looking "Taco Truck Parking" to corner signs.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:20 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


There was good news in the report released today. Not "everything is solved" news, but positive progress. No one has said that everyone is universally doing great.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:20 PM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]




I'm simultaneously getting two replies: "What?! That's nonsense" and "the economy is doing better than ever and people are doing great." So, uh.

I don't think it's that hard to figure. 1) The idea that Rs are more focused and concerned about income inequality is laughable in my opinion. 2) The economy has definitely gotten better and did just have it's best improvement year ever. Is it perfect? No.
posted by chris24 at 1:22 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm simultaneously getting two replies: "What?! That's nonsense" and "the economy is doing better than ever and people are doing great."

I think part of the reason you're getting pushback is that you're making up how people feel and crudely paraphrasing what they are saying. You don't really have a lot of evidence of this great Republican strategy outside of Donald Trump fueling economic anxiety, which he is blaming immigrants for, in part.
posted by zutalors! at 1:22 PM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


Are you suggesting that when white people living in poverty are unhappy about it, it simply doesn't matter because minorities are "optimistic" about the economy?

No, I'm suggesting that when it's the socially privileged group that's fretting over the economy and minority communities which were more deeply impacted aren't, that maybe the issue isn't actually the economy. Because the sense I get from what I've read and seen is that the economy is just a convenient cover for complaints about the loss of privilege in society.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:25 PM on September 13, 2016 [19 favorites]


I think it's generally understood that what's upsetting some lower-income white people is the relative decline in their economic situation, as opposed to their absolute position (still better than most minority groups).

It's just kind of hard to swallow when you see conservatives suddenly all up in arms about Jobs and Poverty and Obama / Democrats Don't Care About Rural Poverty. Particularly given the long and sordid history of rich people stirring up racist sentiment in order to divide the working class.

I understand where these folks are coming from and have some sympathy for them, but it's not okay for them to vote for people who will hurt other people just because they're hurting now too.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:26 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hoover was an engineer.

Damn.
posted by The World Famous at 9:40 AM on September 13


This is why his name is The World Famous. This is the ultimate dad joke of all time and I will live the rest of my life making jokes in the shadow of this one, and grateful to have lived in the Era when he wrote it. No sarcasm.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:27 PM on September 13, 2016 [23 favorites]



Can we not allow that for a large portion of the white people in our economy, things are progressively getting worse (or it seems that way to them), and they are allowed to feel upset about that?


They're allowed to feel upset, but when they blame it on immigrants, women, etc I can't feel sympathy for them. That's what the Trump campaign is doing, and "everybody knows it," to borrow a phrase.
posted by zutalors! at 1:30 PM on September 13, 2016 [18 favorites]


Maybe this is a stupid question, but aren't income inequality, wealth inequality and financial insecurity all parts of "the economy"?
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:30 PM on September 13, 2016


Republicans are addressing income inequality more than Hillary or the Dems

I guess "that union rep (or black guy, or immigrant, or whatever) is gonna steal your donut" is addressing income inequality, kind of.

the Hillarymen.
the who now? wait, is she assembling a ruthless, loyal army of soldier-fanatics answerable only to her?


Yes, she is, but you're thinking about the Beyonces. The Hillarymen are a completely different terrifying conspiracy.
posted by jackbishop at 1:31 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


I think you mean "I'm losing my white privilege" to the millions of racists and fascists.

So, when I say that I have a really good job that pays $65,000 per year but going by 1978 income distribution, I should making more like $90,000-$100,000, I'm complaining about privilege?

Now, the averages behind those numbers vary a lot based on race so I, as a white male, should be on the lower end of any raise that comes from fixing income inequality, I get that and I think I'm acknowledging the advantage I get from my privilege, it's an advantage that I actively work at minimizing. These are advantages that I just have without doing anything and they're advantages I want everyone to have.

So maybe what you're driving at here is that difference between me and a Trump supporter is that I bitch about the economy in terms of "this sucks for me and it's even worse for minority groups" and Trump supports go the other way?
posted by VTX at 1:32 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think part of the reason you're getting pushback is that you're making up how people feel and crudely paraphrasing what they are saying. You don't really have a lot of evidence of this great Republican strategy outside of Donald Trump fueling economic anxiety, which he is blaming immigrants for, in part.

Could be. But that also seems like a misstatement of what I've been saying, though. At no point am I denying that Trump is trying to blame immigrants or that he has an agenda. I'm. Not. Defending. Trump. He's a racist, baiting, insincere ass. Clear? I hate the Republicans. But I have been laying out a case that actual economic realities for people may not be as great as the numbers suggest, and that people are actually struggling quite a bit. For all his (many. many. many) faults, he's at least acknowledging that for people, and they're responding to it. I haven't seen the same level of that from our side. I've seen quite a few problems from our side.
posted by naju at 1:34 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


he's at least acknowledging that for people, and they're responding to it

This is the grading on a curve. He's "acknowledging" it by blaming immigrants, talking about bringing coal jobs back, very specifically dogwhistling who he will "help" and who he will not. Meanwhile The Wall, plus his proposed tax cuts, plus his military expansion, will not be doing anything positive for his target audience.
posted by zutalors! at 1:39 PM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


Still avoiding cable news which is helping my anxiety levels. However, I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the polling averages (which are a lagging indicator) will show a tiny Trump lead by or shortly after the first debate. That's the polling average, not the individual polls. Which will cause the JCPL to spike to unprecedented levels.
posted by Justinian at 1:44 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


The standard toolkit to deal with geographical economic disparities is education and training and an attempt to build and support specialised clusters for network multipliers, along with tax incentives for investment. The last part is messier because municipalities can't move while companies can, so you end up with bidding wars that often forego any direct revenue in exchange for jobs. (A minor example: southern states throwing money at big-budget film productions, in effect having to undercut each other.)

As I've said here, the other problem with education/training/investment is that it inevitably leads to new social and geographical configurations, both in places that aren't direct beneficiaries and those which are: see, for instance, the Boston Globe piece on Norcross, GA, which has been enveloped by the expansion of metro Atlanta so that a growing middle-class Hispanic population lives alongside white people who remember when it was a small town in farm country.

But even that doesn't acknowledge that work in developed nations isn't really "doing stuff in factories" any more. (Though perhaps too much of it is "running around Amazon warehouses against a brutally punitive clock".) The question of what is work? is a politically difficult one to raise.

"We'll make Apple manufacture iPhones in America" is not a plan.
posted by holgate at 1:45 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


The "but Trump is awful" response to any criticism is a bit tiring. Yes, I know he's bad. We all know. I'm terrified. But some criticisms of the Democrats are allowed to exist regardless. Sorry, I'm moving on to other topics.
posted by naju at 1:45 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


talking about bringing coal jobs back

Steel, too. Which everyone in steel country (hello!) knows is never going to happen. His supporters here, though, like that he's spinning this fantasy with them in mind. They feel heard and valued by that. But it is pure la-la land nonsense. He knows it. They know it. But such distrust in institutions of government has been sewn that people believe that their only options are "brief collective hallucination" or nothing at all. The idea that there could be a governmental policy that could help the situation is a non-starter.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:47 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]




The "but Trump is awful" response to any criticism


Again, a misrepresentation of what is happening.
posted by zutalors! at 1:48 PM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


So maybe what you're driving at here is that difference between me and a Trump supporter is that I bitch about the economy in terms of "this sucks for me and it's even worse for minority groups" and Trump supports go the other way?

Yes, I was addressing Trump supporters. Not white people in general. There's been lots of studies that economic insecurity is not the engine behind Trump and that racial animus is the best correlation. So I think it's fair based on his supporters' statements to pollsters and their actions, and the man and his message itself to say that it's focused on blaming others, people of color, for their perceived and/or real loss of privilege and/or income.
posted by chris24 at 1:48 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]




I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the polling averages (which are a lagging indicator) will show a tiny Trump lead by or shortly after the first debate

Yeah, I think we'll be right around a dead heat before the debates. I'm also beginning to believe that the only debate that will matter is the first one; I don't think the attention-span-news-cycle relationship this time around will hold out long enough for all of them. Except in the case of a totally catastrophic performance on the part of either one of them, I think any outcome between strong victory for either party and completely boring tie will be downplayed all around.
posted by penduluum at 1:49 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


If there is a failing in the discussion of the economy, it is not that Democrats don't discuss the topic, but instead they tend to focus on the middle class (they actually talk about it all the time: example, example). Poverty comes up very rarely, and the people who are really feeling the pinch, who are not benefiting from the upturn in the economy, are the very poor. Minorities tend to be overrepresented in this group, but it is largely white, and I could sympathize with them feeling frustrated that their needs are not being addressed.

However, this is not Trump's followers. The median household income of a Trump voter in the primaries was about $72,000 -- that's not poor. It's the middle class that the Dems relentlessly talk about. And, sure, they feel they are slipping, but their support of Trump isn't based on the fact that he's giving some sort of real talk about the economy that the Dems haven't bothered with. It's because they don't like the Dems' solutions, because they are angry and are looking at someone who is channeling that anger.

Trumpism isn't about the economy. It's about a perceived slippage in status that is directly linked to an actual slippage in privilege, and the rage that results from that. Any discussion of the economy is just a Jungian shadow puppet show for the real issue, which is that privileged white people, who are the group who are bouncing back fastest after the economic free fall, nonetheless can't stand that the world has changed, and disguise their sexism and racism by pretending the Dems are bad for the economy. This is demonstrably not true, and to suggest otherwise, to suggest that somehow the Republican attracts followers because they're the only ones talking economics, is absurd.

The Republican economic agenda has not been forwarding Trumpism. He doesn't promote it, follow it, or even seen to be aware of it. Trump is fueled by white rage over peceived loss of status.
posted by maxsparber at 1:50 PM on September 13, 2016 [28 favorites]


OK, "but Trump is insincere about everything he says", which, yep. I agree.
posted by naju at 1:50 PM on September 13, 2016


For all his (many. many. many) faults, he's at least acknowledging that for people, and they're responding to it. I haven't seen the same level of that from our side.

This flies in the face of the entire Sanders campaign and the Democratic adoption of the points that Clinton didn't already have as part of her platform.
posted by chris24 at 1:50 PM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


"We'll make Apple manufacture iPhones in America" is not a plan.

For lots of reasons, not the least of which is that we don't really want it. A lot of the interesting and profitable aspects of Apple's manufacture are already done in the US. The assembly process they outsource to China is, frankly, shit work for shit wages. Now, granted, even that starts to look good if you're unemployed long-term in a country without a social safety net, but I don't think a race to the bottom is actually what America needs to juice its economy.
posted by jackbishop at 1:51 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


This is the grading on a curve. He's "acknowledging" it by blaming immigrants

naju has really gone out of his way to make clear that he is not defending Trump.

We can acknowledge that part of Trump's success has come from tapping into white folks' economic anxiety, while still believing that the way Trump is exploiting that anxiety is dangerous and indefensible.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:51 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Can we not allow that for a large portion of the white people in our economy, things are progressively getting worse (or it seems that way to them), and they are allowed to feel upset about that?

Okay, so let me get this straight. When that portion of white people are upset they just express it by not letting transgender folks choose what restroom to use, refuse any kind of gun control, say that Muslims should eat bacon to prove themselves, and simply want 11 million people to 'go away' and build a wall so they will never come back?

It's not true that the US was totally great before and then a bunch of evil Japanese, Chinese, Mexicans, and Muslims started invading with their cheap goods, cheap labor, and cheap attacks on the good ol' America. So, if it isn't true then how did the connection get made? People don't always react this way when their upset. I think we have to recognize that people are allowed to be upset, but they've had a hand in priming themselves to react and continue to act this way when they are upset.
posted by FJT at 1:52 PM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


Now Venus may be utterly inhospitable with a deadly poison atmosphere, but Earth? Earth has some issues too, let's not be afraid to call it out when necessary
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:53 PM on September 13, 2016 [27 favorites]


Kurt Eichenwald (Vanity Fair, Newsweek): I believe Trump was institutionalized in a mental hospital for a nervous breakdown in 1990, which is why he won't release medical records.
posted by PenDevil at 1:53 PM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


Just wanted to chime in: Pence's refusal to rebuke David Duke (Pence pukes over Duke rebuke?) is not turning up on the front pages of NYT, WaPo, LA Times, or USA Today websites. It DOES show up on the front pages of nbcnews.com, abcnews.com, and politico.

Just so we're clear on this: 'Lyin' Ted Cruz, 'Crooked' Hillary, 'Little' Marco, 'Little' Katy Tur, 'Low Energy' Jeb, 'Terrible' Michelle Fields, Liz 'Pocahontas' Warren, Megyn 'Blood-Coming-Out-Of-Her-Wherever' Kelly, Gail 'Face of a Dog' Collins, Bette 'Extremely Unattractive' Middler? Hey, we shoot from the hip! Deal with it. But 'Deplorable' David Duke, the Holocaust denier and former Imperial Wizard of the KKK? Please, people, let's have some decorum. We're not in the name calling business.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 1:53 PM on September 13, 2016 [77 favorites]


The Democratic adoption of those points was paper thin and a ploy at the convention to unite the party. If it's substantial and has become a core part of Clinton's campaign then I'd be interested in links to her speeches to that effect.
posted by naju at 1:53 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's been shown to my satisfaction that the idea that Trump voters are Trump voters based on economic anxiety is overplayed. What they are really basing it on is racial anxiety.
posted by Justinian at 1:53 PM on September 13, 2016 [30 favorites]




The Democratic adoption of those points was paper thin and a ploy at the convention to unite the party.


So you think people saying Republicans/Trump won't keep promises wrt to Glass-Steagall etc is a terrible argument, but this is a sound assertion?
posted by zutalors! at 1:55 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


If it's substantial and has become a core part of Clinton's campaign then I'd be interested in links to her speeches to that effect.

You realize that you're moving goalposts, right?
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:57 PM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


I'm not saying either are sound or particularly sincere. The latter was mostly to get Sanders folks into the fold and I haven't seen much about it since.
posted by naju at 1:59 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


> But here's the problem. When we offer hope, in the form of help that would be especially useful to many disaffected white voters, in the form of, say, better health insurance options, a non-trivial number panic and treat it as a communist plot. Same with the reactions to paid family leave, making college more affordable, etc...

It would help if most upper-middle class Democrats weren't virulently class-bigoted, and the Democratic Party hadn't abandoned it's former tradition of support for economically progressive policies. What you're saying would make more sense if the Party was offering some kind of hope, and currently the Party is offering only contempt. Claiming the Democratic Party cares about poor people is like Republicans claiming to be the Party of Lincoln.

I spent a good bit this past primary season arguing with Democrats who claimed that universal access to health care, paid parental leave, subsidized college tuition, and subsidized pre-school or day care are inherently racist, misogynist policies, and anyone who advocates these policies should be driven out of the Democratic Party, and every vote working-class Democrats like me have ever cast for a Democratic candidate is a disgrace to the Party. (Not here on MeFi very much. Our moderators keep a lot that stuff in check, especially when it gets personal. But I spent a lot of time during the primaries on Daily Kos which doesn't have human moderation.)

There are Democrats who care about poor and working-class people, but we're a despised, though sizeable minority within the Party. There aren't enough of us to have much influence on policy.

I don't think policies designed to alleviate income inequality and remove some obstacles to class mobility would win over many of the fanatical racists who support Trump, who are mostly committed Republicans anyway, but such policies could win over working-class people who currently don't vote because they think neither party cares about them or represents their interests. (I used to be that category myself.) We're going to have to overcome a lot of resistance in our own Party to get there tho