At least we know she knows where France is.

September 16, 2016 8:36 PM

With 52 days to go until the U.S. presidential election, the polls are tightening and some Democrats and Republicans are freaking out that Clinton might not win "this easy-ass election." (Nate Silver says we can wait a week before surrendering to panic.)

Miscellanea:

• Trump finally gives up on his "remarkable campaign of relentless deception to undermine President Obama."
• Jimmy Fallon is excoriated for his softball sitdown with The Donald, while Cosmopolitan is praised for a challenging interview with Ivanka Trump.
• Hillary is back on the trail!
• So is Michelle Obama, who today gave a rousing speech on Clinton's behalf, proving once again that she may be Hillary's best surrogate.
• Flashback Friday: Seth Myers and President Obama roast Trump at the 2011 White House Correspondent's dinner.
• Get registered to vote!

posted by Anonymous (4589 comments total)

As if everything weren't strange enough, we've somehow ended up back with the birthers and also it was Hillary's fault all along? Stop the world I want to get off.
posted by Lutoslawski at 8:38 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]

So begins the next episode of Donald Trump Craps the World
posted by perspicio at 8:40 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]

thx lalex. lose, trump. (I'm still embarrassed that he's a major party nominee.)

I can almost not believe this election is real, and I won't be able to wrap my head around everything until Clinton wins...

or
posted by defenestration at 8:41 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]

also, I cannot help but imagine Fallon ruffling Hitler's hair and playing stupid games with him and fake laughing
posted by defenestration at 8:42 PM on September 16, 2016 [88 favorites]

My brain hurts, in cryptic and confusing ways.
posted by aramaic at 8:43 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]

I keep waking up and remembering Donald fucking Trump is the goddamn Republican nominee for President and is way, way too close to approaching having a shot at winning.

This is our reality. Our country is trolling itself.
posted by defenestration at 8:48 PM on September 16, 2016 [30 favorites]

Next week: "I never said Obama was born in America, okay? I never said that."
posted by uosuaq at 8:49 PM on September 16, 2016 [49 favorites]

imagine Fallon ruffling Hitler's hair and playing stupid games with him and fake laughing

Rolling over to let Kim Jong-Un pet his belly

Begging Franco to scratch behind his ears

Doing a dance routine with Qaddafi's Amazonian Guard
posted by Existential Dread at 8:51 PM on September 16, 2016 [22 favorites]

God help us if it all came down to Jimmy Fallon.

Also: Fuck you, Jimmy Fallon.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:51 PM on September 16, 2016 [63 favorites]

Honestly, with his track record during the primaries, Nate Silver telling me not to panic makes me want to curl up on the floor while weeping and sucking my thumb.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:51 PM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]

All we can do is vote, and encourage others to vote. And vote *effectively*. Remind your friends this is not the time for a protest vote. If you know young people, talk to them, register them. Get out the vote.
posted by frumiousb at 8:51 PM on September 16, 2016 [31 favorites]

Begging Franco to scratch behind his ears

I believe he already did that to Dave Franco thinking he was a Spanish dictator.
posted by Talez at 8:52 PM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]

(should be: help them register, typing too fast.)
posted by frumiousb at 8:53 PM on September 16, 2016

I wouldn't be surprised if next week he says Obama was never born anywhere at all, and sprung fully-formed from the bowels of Lucifer himself.

Except he'll pronounce "Lucifer" wrong. "Luke-ifer", or something.
posted by rifflesby at 8:53 PM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]

Okay but at one point 538 had Clinton at 89% to win and since that's describing the same election that must mean it's still true because I choose to believe that's what math means
posted by beerperson at 8:54 PM on September 16, 2016 [15 favorites]

While Fallon was ruffling Trump's hair, here's what other "Late Night TV Comedians" were doing. And that doesn't include the guy on right after him, Seth Whatsisname.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:54 PM on September 16, 2016 [13 favorites]

The title of that Nate Silver article is the worst kind of clickbait.
posted by Bistle at 8:54 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

I wouldn't be surprised if next week he says Obama was never born anywhere at all, and sprung fully-formed from the bowels of Lucifer himself.

Ben Carson already claimed that for Hillary. Obama would have to be the spawn of Belial.
posted by Talez at 8:54 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]

Excellent thread title. It was one of those I had rattling around my brain for the first debate, but the timing here is great.

My "Election 2016" Twitter list is blowing up. It includes a fair number of media sources that may cover other political topics (or in some cases, stuff unrelated to the campaign, if you can remember such things exist), but it's usually pretty easy to keep track of. This birther nonsense, and in particular the crappy way Trump has treated the press in the last 24 hours, has really pushed everyone into a new gear.

If the moderation of the first debate is anything even remotely like that Matt Lauer event, I almost fear violence might erupt--this time initiated by the political media. I work around journalists, so the idea that they might storm the castle is kind of hilarious, but there is FINALLY some real outrage happening.

(My less charitable side is thinking that journalists can manage a dispassionate stance when reporting on Trump trolling the population at large, but when the troller blades are turned in their direction, all bets are off.)
posted by Superplin at 8:56 PM on September 16, 2016 [14 favorites]

Regarding the Fallon interview, and a lot of his shtick and appeal in general, I cannot help but think of Gawker's essay about what the author used the word "smarm" to describe. So much of internet culture and our culture and pop culture is dripping in it, and that's how you get interviews like that one. Warts and all, I do miss Gawker.
posted by defenestration at 8:58 PM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]

January 25, 2017

Act 1: Morning
Advisers burst into Trump's room - "Mr. President, Putin has invaded Azerbaijan!!"
Trump: *stares blankly*
Adviser: "It's a country in the Caucasus."
Trump: *stares blankly*
Adviser: "It's a country."
Trump: "...........does he want help?"
Adviser: "I...uh, what"

Act 2: Late Morning
GOP Representative: "Sir, we need you to lay out your agenda for us this session. What legislation should we propose to bring manufacturing jobs back to America?"
Trump: "Did you see this garbage? Tweeter egg WhiteHitler69 tipped me off that a letter to the editor in Wisconsin was worried about my rhetoric?!?
GOP Representative: "Ah, no, I didn't. Sir, should we include some sort of punishment for companies moving their operations overseas?"
Trump: "....sad that the irrelevant....how do you spell 'She-boy-gan'?"
GOP Representative: "That offends me."

Act 3: Afternoon
*At Press Conference*
Trump: "Believe me, we are going to do great. things. here in the White House. Great. Things."
Reporter: "Sir, you're now in the White House. Could you elaborate?"
Trump: "We're bringing in the best people. The. best. people."
Reporter: "Yes, I saw Secretary of State Alex Jones earlier. How are you going to deal with the shift in trade policy from Latin American countries away from the U.S.?"
Trump: ".........get him out of here!!" *Swarm of Secret Service Officers wearing Trump brand shirts hustle the reporter out of the room*
Trump: "Next question"
Only reporter left in room: *Looks around* "Sir, what is your response to President Hollande saying you had "a bit of a quick temper?"
Trump: *Balls fist*

At 4: Evening
Trump: "You're probably wondering why I gathered you here today."
Joint Chiefs: *Looking at strategical map of France displayed on the table*
"Bring me the briefcase."
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:58 PM on September 16, 2016 [136 favorites]

Except he'll pronounce "Lucifer" wrong. "Luke-ifer", or something.

Hail Satin! We've got only the finest satin sheets, so soft, the best.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:59 PM on September 16, 2016 [28 favorites]

After Trump wins, I'm sure there will be plenty of people telling themselves "at least he put the Mexicans in their place" as the nuclear bombs rain death upon us all.
posted by double block and bleed at 9:03 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]

if trump wins, there's a chance we'll go further down the post-fact path. like he'll be demonstrably awful and everything will be fucked domestically and internationally and people will just be like "well that's not how I see it"
posted by defenestration at 9:06 PM on September 16, 2016 [33 favorites]

After Trump wins, I'm sure there will be plenty of people telling themselves "at least he put the Mexicans in their place" as the nuclear bombs rain death upon us all.

Yes, a homophobic, Latino-hating, Muslim-hating, racist, sexist pig won the US presidency, but for a beautiful moment in time I got to stamp my feet and refuse to vote for Hillary. You’d understand if you saw how many people on Facebook were impressed with me at the time.
posted by Talez at 9:08 PM on September 16, 2016 [181 favorites]

So FiveThirtyEight's poll estimates Trump at 44.3% of the popular vote (Clinton 46.5%), and RealClearPolitics at 47% (Clinton at 41%(!)).

In 2012, Romney lost with 47.2% of the popular vote compared to Obama's 51.1%.

In other words, Trump's vast difference from Romney—one was a serious conservative candidate, the other is an ignorant con man who's reduced the media to talking about cartoon Nazi frog memes—apparently does not make a difference to the overall electorate. It's just another D versus R to people.

2016. At least it'll be over soon eventually.
posted by Rangi at 9:12 PM on September 16, 2016 [33 favorites]

I do miss Gawker.
Some of Gawker's better writers are making nice waves in other sites in the Formerly Gawker Network. Most notably The Concourse, a subsite of their sports site Deadspin (because it IS all a game, isn't it?) You just gotta know where to look...
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:13 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]

I really think a huge effect social media has had is making it harder for people to admit they were wrong in the face of a challenge or new evidence. You put your wrong opinion in print on the internet for everyone to see forever and it's a lot harder to be like, "Eh, you know what, maybe not so much with that." It was different when maybe you spouted off to your boyfriend or your cousin about some thing you didn't know much about because if you change your mind you can try to save face by denying it or being like, "Well, that's not how I remember it." Put that shit in writing for your 200 facebook friends? It takes a pretty mature person to admit they were wrong in front of that many people.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:15 PM on September 16, 2016 [44 favorites]

On my Google News feed right now, Clinton is the only one of the four Presidential candidates not mentioned except as the subject of a thinly veiled threat by one of the other candidates.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:17 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

We are staring into the abyss of a Trump presidency, and many people are to blame
posted by nubs at 9:17 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]

Relevant:

The Commission on Presidential Debates has weighed in. Its Nonpartisan Candidate Selection Criteria will not allow Gary Johnson or Jill Stein into the first presidential debate, which is scheduled to take place on Sept. 26 at Hofstra University in New York. USA Today: "Candidates were required to reach 15% support in a selection of national polls to qualify... Johnson had 8.4% backing, while Stein had 3.2%." Johnson and running mate, Bill Weld, plan to hold their own debates. Weld, speaking to Reason last week: "[We will be] standing together on the street corner outside every debate venue answering the same questions as in the debate in real time, you know, putting it out on Facebook."
posted by mr_bovis at 9:21 PM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]

>We are staring into the abyss of a Trump presidency, and many people are to blame

Andrew Coyne's Twitter feed is always amusing. He's a highly entertaining commentator.
posted by My Dad at 9:22 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

that's cool Gary
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:23 PM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]

2016. At least it'll be over soon eventually.

2016 was already lengthened by a leap day in February, and it'll be extended again by a leap second in December. It's going to be a long year.
posted by mbrubeck at 9:25 PM on September 16, 2016 [47 favorites]

He's a highly entertaining commentator.

For me, nothing beats Coyne when he sets "invective" to high:

"What about the media? Should they wear this? . . . For succumbing to Trump’s months-long war of attrition on human reason — the insults, the craziness, the elemental errors, the literally hundreds of lies, by which Trump advertised his Olympian disdain for any of the usual standards of behaviour, and so made it impossible for anyone else to hold him to account?"
posted by nubs at 9:27 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]

I do feel a touch abd bad that your FPP about candidates not being let in the debates was...not let into MetaFilter, so thanks for bringing it over here mr_bovis.

I don't really get the hate I keep seeing over the 15% threshold, even though I understand it obviously angers supporters of third parties. It seems reasonable that there be some kind of threshold for the debates. Is there anything really so terrible about having one?
posted by zachlipton at 9:29 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]

Donald says Hillary started birtherism and he finished it.

He may as well read lorem ipsum at this point.
posted by adept256 at 9:32 PM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]

It's all in keeping with his life-long practice of Having It Both Ways.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:35 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]

I feel like this whole shift to a tight race came in a flurry of:

1. All Clinton Foundation, All the Time
2. Matt Lauer and that fucking C-in-C forum where he went all-emails, no substance on Clinton and rolled over for Trump
3. Clinton said something demonstrably true about Trump's hold on the racist vote and the media freaked out like that was somehow a bad thing
4. Clinton got pneumonia and some bad footage of her nearly passing out and oh my god why didn't she tell the world she was under the weather
5. The NYT defended its false equivalency strategy on the basis of false equivalency (as a MeFite noted they could've just posted an Xzibit meme)
...and in that same week, most of the big media outlets (aside from WaPo and some internet sites) basically gave up on covering Trump. Like, at all.

It really doesn't feel like Clinton did a faceplant to me so much as she had one bad day (the pneumonia) at the same time the media basically decided "fuck it this is too hard."

I swear I'm at a point where the only thing I want out of the news networks, NYT, and NPR is the sort of sobbing "I'm sorry" apology your bf/gf gives while you're walking out on them and they damn well know you're right to do it. I mean what I really want is for them to get their fucking act together and start doing some goddamn journalism, but I'm kinda past hoping for that.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:46 PM on September 16, 2016 [147 favorites]

"Candidates were required to reach 15% support in a selection of national polls to qualify... Johnson had 8.4% backing, while Stein had 3.2%."

The irony is that if it weren't for Harambe's role as spoiler, Stein would have gotten enough support to attend the debate.
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:46 PM on September 16, 2016 [18 favorites]

I really think a huge effect social media has had is making it harder for people to admit they were wrong in the face of a challenge or new evidence.

Possibly. I do think there's a different effect on display, which is that you're never alone with your ideas and beliefs, no matter how fucking awful they are. The internet era has helped people in isolated communities who were unjustly marginalised and it's also created a competition for the town bigot to out-bigot the other bigots in a virtual city of bigotry.

There's irony in how Trump is a creation of social media's ability to gather vicious fuckwits in the unbridled service of hatred and harassment, but his campaign has had purchase on the media establishment because cablenews producers treat it like a wobbly tooth in the back of their mouth.
posted by holgate at 9:48 PM on September 16, 2016 [16 favorites]

For anybody who is interested, The Truth about Pepe the Frog and the Cult of Kek.

(tldr--it came from 4chan)
posted by bukvich at 9:50 PM on September 16, 2016 [28 favorites]

Let's keep this simple: Pepe is the Anti-Kermit.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:52 PM on September 16, 2016 [12 favorites]

zachlipton:

Yes, the fate of my post was unfortunate, though I can't help smiling a touch at the series of events.

I like the idea of setting the bar lower for the first debate -- say at 5% -- though even that plan is not without its failings. You will always have someone complaining that the bar is too high even at a lower percentage. Johnson didn't get near this high last year and wouldn't have made a 5% cutoff, if I remember correctly.

Perhaps my biggest problem with the Debate Commission's criteria is that it doesn't take into account the various polls (as high as 52% in one) that say the public wants to see Johnson/Stein in the debates. It also doesn't address unfavorability (56% Clinton, 63% Trump in one poll). I don't know about any ratings for Johnson or Stein unfavorability.
posted by mr_bovis at 9:53 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

What the fuck is Jimmy Fallon supposed to do? The problem is not that Jimmy Fallon didn't play hardball, the problem is that something that rounds up to about 50% of the country is prepared to vote for Richie Rich Racy Racist.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 9:53 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]

Let's make it more simple: fuck Pepe, fuck 4chan, fuck the alt-right, and fuck Trump.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:54 PM on September 16, 2016 [34 favorites]

My reaction when Pepe went from something silly to being the badge of the scum of the internet: feels bad, man.
posted by tclark at 9:54 PM on September 16, 2016 [20 favorites]

My reaction when Pepe went from something silly to being the badge of the scum of the internet: feels bad, man.

Over on the earlier thread, someone commented that this election cycle has their parent's watching MSNBC all the time, and they saw and commented on her pepe story. I realized that pepe is actually the perfect spokesman for Donald Trump and his supporters' misogyny, racist, and hate because to mostly everyone who is in the category "Olds" pepe is completely context free, therefore to them ( and myself ) **ALL** pepe stands for is misogynistic racists.

Let's keep this simple: Pepe is the Anti-Kermit.

Indeed.
posted by mikelieman at 9:58 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

Jesus, bukvich, that makes every part of my psyche hurt.
posted by argybarg at 10:02 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]

yeah. a young woman interned at my company over a year ago and would drop sad pepe into slack every once in a while, at opportune times. it kinda caught on, and we wound up making an emoji out it in her honor when her internship was over. over time, it kinda became the default bummer emoji.

yesterday, I wound up bringing up my personal moratorium on pepe stuff because of all the associations it now has with the alt-right, white supremacists, and antisemites, etc. even among a group of young, techy programmer-types, who very much trade in internet culture, most of my coworkers had no clue pepe had taken on so many negative connotations—that it was now a symbol of which repugnant bigots have taken ownership.
posted by defenestration at 10:03 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]

My reaction when Pepe went from something silly to being the badge of the scum of the internet: feels bad, man.

I need a new cell phone case. My first thought, given the way Jon Bernthal fucking nailed his performance of Frank Castle in season two of Daredevil (hell, better than any comic version of the character), was to get a Punisher skull for my phone.

Except, on the day that I was about to do that, I had clicked on whatever political hashtag was going through Twitter and I saw more than one racist white nationalist asshole spouting Trump bullshit with a Punisher skull as his Twitter icon. And god damn it, Frank was never about that. Never. Like I've lost count of the number of times the comic cast those dudes as the bad guys.

But I looked at those icons and I thought about when I discovered terms like "nice guy" and "friend zone" had these awful connotations I'd never heard of before. I don't want to have to explain myself to anyone because some brainless assholes decided to adopt one of my fictional favorites as one of their mascots. So my cell phone still doesn't have a case.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:09 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]

what I really want is for them to get their fucking act together and start doing some goddamn journalism, but I'm kinda past hoping for that.

PBS tonight: “Let’s start with the birther lie” from Judy Woodruff.

I think the hubris on display over the past two days -- stranding the Trump embeds on the bus, teasing the birther shit, Fallon, this morning's rickroll / hotel promo, this evening's megalomania -- has blown away a little of the fog. Trump's feeling cokefiend-powerful right now and redoubling on every bet. Tomorrow he's in Texas to wave the bloody shirt again against illegal immigrants. Yeah, it relies upon top-tier media thinking themselves special snowflakes, but if that's what it takes.... Let's see if it lasts.

(Hillary is in DC tomorrow evening at the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation's legislative conference, and Obama will give the final keynote; Sanders and Warren are doing multiple events in Ohio.)
posted by holgate at 10:09 PM on September 16, 2016 [14 favorites]

On Wednesday, October 12th, I'm toddling down the street to my MIL and FIL's house. we are going to go out for a nice breakfast, then we are going to the old Veteran's Services building in downtown Toledo to cast our votes. It's the first day of early voting, and we're doing it in person to make sure our votes are counted. This will undoubtedly annoy OH Sec. State Jon Husted, who really wants Dems to vote absentee.

And then I am not looking at another godsdamned bit of election coverage until November 9th. I am out of cope. I am in negative spoon territory. The nightmares, I thankfully do not remember (thanks, Lexapro!), but I apparently wake up screaming every night about the election. My poor husband. My poor dogs. I cannot bear to hear Trump's bellowing any more - I literally begin to gag, I can feel the urge to vomit rising. The heartburn is doing me in. The desire to crawl into the Bourbon decanter is dangerous in its ease to satisfy.

I'm not going to be able to sleep until I cast my vote, then turn it all off.
posted by MissySedai at 10:18 PM on September 16, 2016 [70 favorites]

I never imagined myself saying anything good about Trump, but he seems to brilliantly understand how the media works. It would be a wonderful irony of the way he trolled them today actually made them mad enough to start doing actual journalism.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:26 PM on September 16, 2016 [13 favorites]

I think the hubris on display over the past two days ... has blown away a little of the fog.

So the 177th time is the charm? There's no blowing away the fog -- it escapes in tendrils from the nostrils of the media every time they exhale. My best guess is that, since they are (despite appearances) human like the rest of us, they have preferences, and their sweet spot is about Hillary +3. When she drops below this margin, they turn up the heat on Trump (using whatever fresh content he's generated that day) until that margin gets back up. And when Hillary pulls too far ahead, they dredge up whatever fresh email/Foundation scandal the Republicans are drumming on that day until she's back down. +3 is just about right -- they don't want Trump to win, but they don't want people to tune out either. So I expect we'll see a few more days of anti-Trump until Hillary's numbers rebound a bit.

Alas, like most everyone else, they don't really appreciate that +3 / 70% probability still means a 1 in 3 chance of blowing our collective brains out, but at least in that regard, they aren't unlike the rest of us who were so overconfident just a few days ago, and will likely be again when that margin bounces back up to +5 for however long that lasts.
posted by chortly at 10:37 PM on September 16, 2016 [27 favorites]

Just, I want to know, do I need to panic?

Probably, yes.

Are there any journalists here who can explain why this is happening? I mean, Trump has done 1,000,000 things worse than Clinton and it isn't getting play. Why?
posted by frumiousb at 10:53 PM on September 16, 2016 [13 favorites]

Don't panic yet.
posted by all about eevee at 10:55 PM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]

The debates haven't even happened yet.
posted by all about eevee at 11:00 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

Are there any journalists here who can explain why this is happening?

Trump is bizarre and fascinating. He's transgressive. He's a quote machine. We all want to talk about him.

How do you not write about him?

Also, does anyone notice that we're in the he age of the sociopath? Tony Soprano, Walter White, Hannibal Lecter, Donald Trump. For whatever reason we're riveted by these men. It's something that people of even 50 years ago would, I think, have struggled to comprehend.
posted by argybarg at 11:01 PM on September 16, 2016 [36 favorites]

It's the old "Man Bites Dog" joke about newspaper headlines gone horribly wrong.

If Clinton does something awesome and professional and presidential... it's not news. If she makes any sort of mistake or has any sort of imperfection... it's news.

If Trump does something racist and terrible, or something bafflingly incompetent... it's not news. If Trump does something human or competent... it's news.

Thus we have "Hillary's 2 Days off for Pneumonia Raise Concerns About Her Health" and "Trump Admits that Obama was Born in America" as actual headlines, and my head has a bump where I keep banging it against my desk.
posted by mmoncur at 11:03 PM on September 16, 2016 [121 favorites]

Don't panic yet.
posted by Fizz at 11:05 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]

So Trump has decided to repeat his bit about taking away the guns from Clinton's Secret Service detail, on Twitter, at 2am.

He's also seen fit to tweet out this Washington Post story: Donald Trump’s birther event is the greatest trick he’s ever pulled. It would appear the cheeto is pleased with himself.
posted by zachlipton at 11:12 PM on September 16, 2016 [28 favorites]

Just, I want to know, do I need to panic?

Earth has been upgraded from Harmless to Mostly Harmless.
posted by adept256 at 11:17 PM on September 16, 2016 [29 favorites]

The debates should go heavily in Hillary's favor since she is going to be debating with a walking blob of cat puke and we should see anxiety-easing numbers following them. If that does not happen or if the public somehow manages to forget what a disaster he is between the debates and the election, then you panic and start campaigning for Giant Meteor and planning the 2020 Arizona Bay MeFi meetup. Just plan ahead, Giant Meteor is heavily in favor of dismantling all infrastructure so you will probably be walking to the meetup.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 11:17 PM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]

How do you not write about him?

You recognize the harm this is doing and you decide to do something healthier for everyone instead.

Also, does anyone notice that we're in the he age of the sociopath? Tony Soprano, Walter White, Hannibal Lecter, Donald Trump. For whatever reason we're riveted by these men. It's something that people of even 50 years ago would, I think, have struggled to comprehend.

I reiterate my position.
It's one thing to observe something from the safety of "it's just entertainment" and hopefully a healthy degree of critical thought. It's another entirely to play with that in a situation that has real consequences to real people.

I have absolutely no sympathy for people -- especially people with the power to affect all this -- who can't seem to pull their eyes off the wreck on the freeway and drive their fucking cars like they're supposed to.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:18 PM on September 16, 2016 [28 favorites]

Trump has done 1,000,000 things worse than Clinton and it isn't getting play. Why?

Clinton way out in front is boring. The media prefers a tight race.
posted by dave99 at 11:18 PM on September 16, 2016 [14 favorites]

You can't generalize the motives of the media people or their masters, they are as varied as the programming on the SyFy Channel... okay bad example. But the last couple days have 'defogged' the view for some media profesionals... of course, the fog will never clear around the Old Grey Lady; meanwhile Comcast really wants an FCC that'll give 'em a blank check, but they'll let MSNBC do its thing as long as it doesn't threaten to have an influence; the other owners, Disney and TimeWarner and Univision and Tronc and Amazon and Redstone and Murdoch, all have varying agendas and varying levels of dedication to them (if FoxNews fears competition from TrumpTV but expects it to happen even if Trump WINS, they could do some weird pivoting). Trump should have been fully exposed as a fraud 48 hours after he made his first announcement to run, but that's not how the American Media works; he's providing them dramatic, 'entertaining', audience-grabbing content at minimal cost, just as he has for 30 freaking years.

And thank you argybarg for saying something I've been trying to... we've got a culture where gangsters, serial killers and medieval despots are our TV heroes and the movies are dominated by superheroes trying to kill each other... and then there's the craze over zombies, the perfect faceless "other" to build a national state of paranoia. Decades of anti-government propaganda have made one of the most accomplished women in America into the Ultimate Villain (and we are still so bogged down in misogyny, but you know that).

Still, I, for one, was gobsmacked that anyone with as non-American a name as Barack Obama could be elected President eight years ago. When I read the first news story about this young, tall, black man in Illinois, my first thought was "dude, if you want to get anywhere, change that first name to Barry". We turned out to be better than I thought, and we still could again.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:27 PM on September 16, 2016 [51 favorites]

You can't generalize the motives of the media people or their masters, they are as varied as the programming on the SyFy Channel... okay bad example.

Maybe you can't generalize the motives of the journalists, but their masters? That's easy. Their motive is profit. And their relationship with Trump is a profitable one (people read/watch stories about him). Very very simple.

And sad.
posted by el io at 11:32 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]

Also, does anyone notice that we're in the he age of the sociopath? Tony Soprano, Walter White, Hannibal Lecter, Donald Trump. For whatever reason we're riveted by these men.

I didn't get into Breaking Bad until during the airing of the 4th season, and after I caught up I went online looking for people talking about the show, as you do. I was shocked by the number of people who really, earnestly believed that Walter White was somehow a heroic figure (and of course the huge contingent that believed that Skyler was somehow a villain). It's a view that's completely divorced from both the facts of the show's story and from the show's tone, but there are a lot of people who were quite vehement about it.

I don't exactly know how that particular lack of critical thinking skills plays into this crisis, but it's hard to imagine the two things are completely unrelated.


What the fuck is Jimmy Fallon supposed to do?

Off the top of my head, here are some options that are absolutely within Jimmy Fallon's power that would have been better than the everything-but-a-blowjob-on-live-television performance he gave:
1) Refuse to interview Trump. I'm sure Fallon has the power to just nix a guest even if there might be repercussions from the network, but even if that's not the case a person with a conscience would have just refused to come in that day.
2) Use the fact that Trump is a ridiculous clown to make some comedy while reinforcing reality and refusing to help him do evil. Point out Trump's obvious lies, make some jokes out of it. You know, his goddamned job.

When Jimmy Fallon emerged into the public eye on SNL, he was a cut-rate Sandler replacement, but he couldn't even do the job. His schtick was the same, but his impressions were worse and his songs were worse. The only remotely funny thing he did during his entire tenure there was actually an impression of Sandler on Celebrity Jeopardy. It is frankly mind-boggling that he started as diet Sandler and managed to find a way to get worse.

Now he's playing pattycake with a real-life monster whose only goal is tearing our society apart at the seams so he can replace it with a more hateful, less equal parody of itself. If he has a conscience he'll resign in shame. Of course, if he had a conscience he couldn't have done what he did in the first place.
posted by IAmUnaware at 11:37 PM on September 16, 2016 [52 favorites]

Well, Trump sells copies, which move ad space or TV time or Facebook ads or whatever makes the money that drives the media. I used to work in media and the thoughtful actual-journalism took a long time to produce and never got as much traffic as finding a funny picture and running it beside an article vaguely related to it. The media is dying and no one is quite sure how to make money off it. But Trump! He's got people watching until they're physically ill, like the poster up thread. Every "mic drop," every "John Oliver totally destroys and leaves a smoking crater," every Facebook argument, every bit of engagement with the process makes someone money. Why wouldn't they want to keep him in the news when nobody can bring themselves to look away?

As for why he has an audience, to me it parallels the Remain side's argument in the UK during the Brexit vote. Which is basically "look, it's not great, but if you don't you're a racist, you racist." Some people don't think of themselves as racist, so that bounces right off. Some see the left calling everyone and everything racist, so the label doesn't have any punch. And some people actually are racist and view Trump's racism as a feature, not a bug.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 11:38 PM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]

Also, does anyone notice that we're in the he age of the sociopath? Tony Soprano, Walter White, Hannibal Lecter, Donald Trump. For whatever reason we're riveted by these men. It's something that people of even 50 years ago would, I think, have struggled to comprehend.

That does explain something for me, I'm never at all interested in those kinds of movies, shows, or people. I've often felt like the odd one out about that. I don't understand what makes it interesting.
posted by bongo_x at 11:38 PM on September 16, 2016 [18 favorites]

They are people who are surviving, and thriving if only momentarily, by bucking the rules we've all generally decided to follow as a society. Escapist fantasy writ large and destructive.
posted by mrzarquon at 11:42 PM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]

As I said, Trump has been providing the media with "dramatic, 'entertaining', audience-grabbing content at minimal cost for 30 freaking years," and never so much as during the Insane Campaign. I think media executive opinions will vary widely whether he'd continue to do so as President, when a pile of other factors will come into play. A Trump with actual power would do a lot of real damage (even without nuking anything), but he could be very very good for certain special interests, and The Media as a whole is not one (certain subsets are). It still looks unlikely that media handling of his campaign could deliver him a victory, but you can see that likelihood in the rear view mirror and it has gotten closer.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:48 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

Margaret Sullivan, WaPo: It’s time for TV news to stop playing the stooge for Donald Trump
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:51 PM on September 16, 2016 [22 favorites]

do I need to panic?

If panicking has any beneficial effect on action -- not just voting, but more substantial action like donating serous money, phone banking, door to door, or just standing on a street corner shouting -- then yes, absolutely.

But you should have been panicking last month as well, and if Clinton bounces back, you should still be panicking. This idea that now that 2 or 3 of the 6 chambers are loaded we should now panic but back then when only one was loaded everyone was totally fine about putting the gun to our collective head and pulling the trigger is nuts. I'd say that until the chance of national and possibly world destruction is below, say, 5%, we should all be panicking if that has any beneficial effect. The looming disaster is huge. Whether it has a 50% chance or a 15% chance shouldn't change the fact that we should be doing absolutely everything in our power, even more than we did in 2008, to avoid that very real possibility.
posted by chortly at 12:12 AM on September 17, 2016 [15 favorites]

One of the things that seems a little odd about the Pepe meme among other things is that there is clearly a divide among people who are at least vaguely aware of the darker side of internet culture and those who know nothing at all about it. Those older relatives or acquaintances who say they are voting for Trump perhaps need to become a little more familiar with their allies and where some of the guiding "principles" and figures of the Trump campaign have come from. To that end, I would seriously consider linking those people to 4chan and letting them get a good look at who it is they are supporting.

Delicacy around this for fear of offending this just allows sites like 4chan to continue to do what they do without much direct notice and allows them to continue their own offensiveness. If people want to support Trump, that's their right, but allowing them to remain blind to what that means is doing no one any favors.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:47 AM on September 17, 2016 [11 favorites]

Jimmy Fallon

Nicole Kidman dodged a bullet there.

Jeebus, I just looked up her name to make sure I spelled it correctly...and she is five weeks younger than I am. I need to figure out how many orders of magnitude more than 5 weeks I look older than she does, but it's not 1.
posted by maxwelton at 12:58 AM on September 17, 2016 [10 favorites]

In 2000 I thought it was completely embarrassing to be an American when Bush won, but I remember me and several of my friends saying "What's the worst that can happen? He's President, but it's not like he can wreck the country in a couple of years." Good times.

Maybe Trump is just trying to save Bush's legacy? He would make Bush look good in comparison.
posted by bongo_x at 12:58 AM on September 17, 2016 [17 favorites]

If I knew how to do stuff like that, I would make a YouTube video of Donald Trump riding down the escalator set to AC/DC's Highway to Hell. If someone does it, please memail the link to me.
posted by Daddy-O at 1:24 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

If I knew how to do stuff like that, I would make a YouTube video of Donald Trump riding down the escalator set to AC/DC's Highway to Hell.

Like this?
posted by KirkpatrickMac at 1:52 AM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

In the spirit of self-care - Starling recently gave birth to six kittens and you can watch them live, 24/7. There is also the Calming Manatee. Remember to take breaks if fear becomes overwhelming, put this in the context of a longer Campaign, and try to be kind to each other. This has been a stressful year in a lot of ways.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:45 AM on September 17, 2016 [49 favorites]

About the young and the olds: I know a young person who was going on and on about all the failings of Hillary and how she and Trump were equally bad, and I asked where that came from. Well it was their American Studies prof and he is brilliant, they say. Yesterday, I looked him up, and lo-behold, he is a white, mustached Boomer. (Not anything against mustaches here, just underlining his gender-status). In a way I'm stating the obvious, given Sanders' age, but the reluctance to support Hillary among boomers and millennials are not unrelated. And (again, nothing new) the way white male professors use their status to promote misogyny is deplorable. I see it every day, and it is not at all limited to the few right wing profs.
Luckily, my young friend has a same-age friend who is an ardent Hillary supporter. And of course I am spamming them with all of the great articles mefites are providing.

re: Trump and birtherism, it is clear that his staff had strong-armed him into that press-somethingorother. The yuge delay was a big sign: he was fighting till the last moment against it. I wondered about why, because it is so clear that the Trump campaign has embraced the "deplorable" label. My guess is the Powell mails. They are really powerful, and should get more attention.

These days, I am dealing with very difficult stress issues. So I have crazy dreams. I dreamt that we were preparing some sort of fundraiser here at our house. (Completely inconceivable now, but not when my grans were alive, and in the dream they were). Hillary was sitting on a landing with a big cauliflower she was prepping for the snacks, and while it looked ok, it was bad inside. I came up to her saying we should complain about that type of bad produce, but she was all granny-like and said I should give the bad cabbage a chance. There is some sort of metaphor in this - can we get her to let go of her sympathy for the bad cabbage? Or something?
posted by mumimor at 2:52 AM on September 17, 2016 [13 favorites]

My absentee ballot should be on the way soon. Doesn't matter all that much, since I'm voting in Maryland, but it makes me feel better.
posted by kyrademon at 2:54 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also Finnish Disco
My FB has several crazies posting BRING BERNIE BACK. An African friend posted this as an antidote
posted by mumimor at 2:55 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wait, don't the new threads come on Mondays? Was I in a coma for a couple days? What's going on? My world is upended.
posted by Justinian at 3:36 AM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

> In a way I'm stating the obvious, given Sanders' age, but the reluctance to support Hillary among boomers and millennials are not unrelated. And (again, nothing new) the way white male professors use their status to promote misogyny is deplorable.

I'm sick of this "if you don't support Hillary you're misogynist" bullshit. That is so patronizing. I think she's a corporate sell-out and a warhawk. I don't care what gender she is.
posted by technodelic at 3:40 AM on September 17, 2016 [14 favorites]

How do you feel about Joe Biden?
posted by Justinian at 3:42 AM on September 17, 2016 [55 favorites]

"I say to the leadership of the Democratic Party, open the doors, let the people in, or the other option for the Democratic Party, which I see as a very sad and tragic option, is to choose to maintain its status quo structure, remain dependent on big money campaign contributions, and be a party with limited participation and limited energy and a party which, incredibly, is allowing a right-wing extremist Republican Party to capture the votes of a majority of working people in this country."
--Bernie Sanders
posted by technodelic at 3:44 AM on September 17, 2016 [11 favorites]

Jimmy Fallon will be around long after Hilliary or Trump and that's what makes America great.
posted by clavdivs at 3:45 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

technodelic, Sanders has also says he likes, respects and supports Clinton even as there are places where he disagrees with her. Cherry picking.
posted by frumiousb at 3:49 AM on September 17, 2016 [15 favorites]

frumiousb, you can like and even respect someone as a person while disagreeing with their politics. I think one of the psychological hacks that is pulled on voters is to get them to identify with personalities instead of talking about issues. The great thing Bernie did was focus on issues, issues, issues. Particularly the issues people actually care about.

If the Democrats had actually wanted to win against Trump they would have nominated the candidate who polled higher against him, namely Sanders.

During the primary there was tremendous energy around Sanders. People phonebanked from their homes and did all kinds of crazy homebaked political activism. I went down to the Democratic HQ in Pasadena the other night and there just weren't that many people there. We had more people at the Sanders house meetings.

This tells me the Democratic leadership cares more about neoliberal policies than about actually winning. They learned the wrong lesson from McGovern back in 68.
posted by technodelic at 4:03 AM on September 17, 2016 [18 favorites]

Ah man, not this shit again.
posted by Justinian at 4:07 AM on September 17, 2016 [151 favorites]

During the primary there was tremendous energy around Sanders.

Not as much as Secretary Clinton had, apparently, given that she won the primary.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:13 AM on September 17, 2016 [123 favorites]

Margaret Sullivan, WaPo: It’s time for TV news to stop playing the stooge for Donald Trump

Oh lordy. Media, pundit thyself.

One of my musings from this election cycle that I've had is how every news organization has been suckered into a losing battle to be breaking news. Guess what, twitter won and you lost. NPR and AP and NYTimes and CNN are battling to be the first ones to post "Frist!" in the youtube comment section of life. But the world has changed, anybody with a smartphone can scoop them now. Breaking news is now the domain of citizen reporter.

The media's actual value is in their restraint, their ability to take a breath before running with breaking news, to add context and substance to their reporting. Instead of competing with Periscope, I wouldn't mind if NPR, CNN, or the Washington Post would take a moment to let the territory of truth settle a bit before publishing the map.
posted by peeedro at 4:17 AM on September 17, 2016 [41 favorites]

Justinian, I'm just responding to people bemoaning the state of the race. It could have been different. I'm just sayin'.

Elementary Penguin, I guess you haven't heard all the personal testimonies from voters here in L.A. and other places who had their voter registrations changed, were switched to provisional ballots that were not counted until weeks after the primary, plus how AP called the election the night before California voted. Not to mention how much money the Clinton machine generated from wealthy donors versus the scrappy Sanders campaign that had to depend on mere people power.
posted by technodelic at 4:19 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

Focus on issues would mean you say "I have some problems with Clinton's foreign policy position" not calling her a Warhawk. Again, cherry picking.
posted by frumiousb at 4:20 AM on September 17, 2016 [15 favorites]

Oh, and never mind. I just saw the "election was stolen" argument. Which not even Sanders argues. You're more Catholic than the Pope and I'm out.
posted by frumiousb at 4:21 AM on September 17, 2016 [41 favorites]

Hillary Clinton got more votes than Bernie Sanders and she had more votes than him during the entire primary season. You can feel free to ignore the 14 million of us who voted for Hillary but don't act surprised when you get ignored right back.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:21 AM on September 17, 2016 [82 favorites]

OK - in a way I started this, I'm sorry; I only wanted to give a perspective on the young-old thing. Please lets not re-litigate the primaries. Secretary Clinton won.
Right now, the reality is that you can choose between Trump and Clinton. There are no other choices. If you vote for anything else, at this point you are supporting Trump. You own it.
posted by mumimor at 4:24 AM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

Mod note: YET ONCE AGAIN A MOD MUST ASK: please drop the repetitive fighting about Bernie Sanders. If you need some repetitive Bernie Sanders fighting to chew on for some reason, just go back and read the old threads where there is certainly more than enough to get your fill.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:27 AM on September 17, 2016 [56 favorites]

No, there are indeed other choices. This whole "there are only two choices" is another thing I'm sick and tired of. When I vote for Jill Stein I'll voting for the issues that are important to me rather than some fake lesser-of-two-evils crap. If/when Democrats lose it will be because the establishment pushed an establishment candidate and froze out a candidate who really represented the people.
posted by technodelic at 4:34 AM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

We now return to your regularly scheduled repetitive millennial-bashing.
posted by enn at 4:34 AM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

In a way I'm relieved when 15 new posts appear in the thread in the middle of a Friday night and I discover that it's just the ghost of the Clinton vs. Sanders threads coming back for a visit.

At least a new Terrible Thing hasn't happened.
posted by mmoncur at 4:35 AM on September 17, 2016 [36 favorites]

Yeah well the millenials are the future. I say that as a Gen-Xer.
posted by technodelic at 4:35 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

How do you all still have the energy to discuss this? I feel like I'm sitting in a bomb shelter, in public, everytime I read about election news, and more when I see the comment thread on MeFi.
posted by yueliang at 4:40 AM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Honestly, I feel like I have to. I have a five year old son and I can't imagine what his world will be like if these neoliberal politicians to keep running our country. We have to change course.

During the primary I had a moment where I realized that if Sanders won I wanted to have been a part of it, and if he lost I don't want to have stood by doing nothing. I'm also a Linux user, if that means anything to you.
posted by technodelic at 4:44 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

When I vote for Jill Stein I'll voting for the issues that are important to me rather than some fake lesser-of-two-evils crap. If/when Democrats lose it will be because the establishment pushed an establishment candidate and froze out a candidate who really represented the people.

That's not how causation works. When you vote for Jill Stein, you may be raising the probability of a Trump victory; depending on your state, the effect may be more or less significant. If Trump wins, it will just be true to say that one of the causes of his victory is your vote for Stein. Your intentions, goals and desires won't make a difference to that effect. Of course it's fair to say that you're happy with that - you are prepared to increase the risk of a Trump victory in exchange for other things you value - but it's just a form of denial to disassociate your choice from its foreseeable results.
posted by Aravis76 at 4:44 AM on September 17, 2016 [168 favorites]

There are no other choices.

The left left left part of my Facebook is convinced the DNC are currently discussing how and when to swap in Sanders, and links to various alt-left news sources as incontrovertible proof. The fact that their main source also claimed NASA had just released new guidelines for astrologers didn't seem to trigger any amount of "wait, what" thinking.
posted by effbot at 4:45 AM on September 17, 2016 [18 favorites]

mr_bovis: Johnson and running mate, Bill Weld, plan to hold their own debates. Weld, speaking to Reason last week: "[We will be] standing together on the street corner outside every debate venue answering the same questions as in the debate in real time, you know, putting it out on Facebook."

sebastienbailard:The irony is that if it weren't for Harambe's role as spoiler, Stein would have gotten enough support to attend the debate.

It would be worth going to down to Hofstra just to see Stein and Johnson debate with a dead gorilla on Hempstead Turnpike.
posted by dr_dank at 4:45 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yes, the debates. The two major parties are scared to death that the public might hear someone like Stein and discover that they like what they hear.
posted by technodelic at 4:50 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

The two major parties are scared to death that the public might hear someone like Stein and discover that they like what they hear.

That seems... unlikely.
posted by Mooski at 4:52 AM on September 17, 2016 [118 favorites]

Mod note: A couple deleted. Technodelic, it seems like you are popping in to have a fight one way or another. Please give it a rest.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:57 AM on September 17, 2016 [29 favorites]

This whole "there are only two choices" is another thing I'm sick and tired of.

1. There are only two people who have a chance of winning.
2. Stein is a clueless, pandering moron I wouldn't support even if the above weren't true.
3. The Green Party as a whole is a mess that needs to get its collective act together if it wants my supports and that starts with getting rid of Stein who uses them every four years when she runs low on money.
4. Some of us genuinely support Hillary and this lesser evils bullshit is just that - tired, lazy bullshit.

In other news, don't know if this has been mentioned yet but the Fraternal Order of Police has apparently endorsed Trump.
posted by asteria at 5:01 AM on September 17, 2016 [103 favorites]

Clinton's campaign and its media auxiliary have detoured way off track.

Trump's net negatives are the highest ever seen, and yet they seem to believe that the focus ought to be on raising his negatives further.

Trump's entire campaign is "I'm the man of the people" and yet they spend the last 6 weeks letting him pack arenas full of regular Americans while she sticks carefully to intimate parties full of millionaires and celebrities.

They seem to take comfort in the debates. They shouldn't. Trump held his own in the Republican debates despite moderators who were as anti-Trump as any we'll see coming up, and despite opponents all wielding one or more of the tools she believes she has to wield against him.

Here's what they need to do --

A Barbara Walters style interview in which Clinton once and for all explains why she had her email on a private server and apologizing for the risks it unintentionally conveyed

Allowing the Gates Foundation to acquire the Clinton Foundation and walking 100% away from it, followed a couple of news cycles later by donating her entire 2013 and later corporate speaking fee income to charity and promising that she and Bill will eschew all corporate income

Her own arena tour, and LOTS of public walking and standing for weeks on end. People need to see her as the healthy woman of the people, not just be told that what's she supposedly is.

Start to ignore Trump, and ditch the anti-Trump rhetoric ("racist," "sexist") that isn't going to move anyone who isn't already moved

Prepare a debate strategy which EMBRACES the hurt / fear / anger that has powered Trump supporters and explains why that is better expressed through voting for her.
posted by MattD at 5:04 AM on September 17, 2016 [18 favorites]

Just, I want to know, do I need to panic?

OMGF, you're waiting this late in the game?
posted by sammyo at 5:04 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Her own arena tour,

Sorry but that would backfire, a huge exciting, stirring, screaming event needs, excitement, stirring speeches and a huge number of excited fans that scream loudly.
posted by sammyo at 5:10 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

In the last thread, people were taking The Roots to task for seemingly doing nothing with Jimmy Fallon fawning over Trump. We should never doubt The Roots.

"Then you, you built a wall
A 20 foot wall, so I couldn't see
But if I get off my knees
I might recall I'm 20 feet tall."
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:26 AM on September 17, 2016 [42 favorites]

Metafilter: give the bad cabbage a chance
posted by sammyo at 5:27 AM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

MattD, Clinton has done plenty of fundraising but it's pure hyperbole to suggest that she hasn't stumped for regular Americans in the last six weeks. Trump "held his own" in debates by occasionally interrupting policy talk stretched between 14 other candidates to deliver sick burns. One on one debates are a different animal. And the Gates Foundation can't just "take over" the Clinton Foundation. First, the Clinton Foundation oversees the Bill Clinton Presidential Library. Second, Clinton's charity does its own outreach, training, and missions. The Gates Foundation primarily hands out money to other organizations that already have infrastructure for polio vaccines and skeeter tents.
posted by xyzzy at 5:31 AM on September 17, 2016 [23 favorites]

"People need to see her as the healthy woman of the people, not just be told that what's she supposedly is."

Agreed but the rested and ready works too, shows pragmatic thinking to a complex situation. (Running for President)
There's a saturation point about health that the public will start to buck, I think we're there, as evidence, Donald's new humility and Hubris skit.
Remember, Teddy Roosevelt finished a speech with a bullet in his chest.

Not another fucking word about e-mail, or past "specters". Don't even mention a postage stamp.
Get Bill off the mic for more then 3 minutes.
Do not give or borrow your foundation to Bill Gates, that falls under the Glass House initiative, for further details consult the various plot lines within the works of Harlan Ellison. But Gates' advice would be invaluable.
posted by clavdivs at 5:32 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

A few thoughts for the peanut gallery:

* Of COURSE the race was going to tighten up. A bunch of Republicans were going to stop playing along with four-candidate polls and protest vote posturing and woke up thinking "good lord, Hillary Clinton, the Not Yet Proven Antichrist But Only Because We Haven't Found Her 666 Tattoo Yet, Slayer of Vince Foster, Would-Be Seizer of All Guns, Hitler in a Pantsuit is two months away from being President-Elect," and started drifting back accordingly. Many #NeverTrumpers saw the writing on the wall and wavered.

The country didn't magically adjust itself from being rabidly kneejerk-partisan just because the Republican candidate was pointedly absurd this time around; this is the party that elected Michele Bachmann and Louie Gohmert, after all. The lesson about Trump is that his personality and posturing are ridiculous but what he's standing for RESONATES with a disturbing % of the Republican base, and most of the rest will go along with him in the end because The Wrong Lizard Might Get In.

* Trump had himself a pretty good week; nothing caught on fire in his undergarments. Hillary had a pretty terrible week; passing out at a 9/11 memorial is, how you say, remarkably unfortunate optics. The end result was that Trump's chances of winning the Grand Shebang went up to... 40% in the aggregates. As others have noted, that is still Far Far Far Too High for Cheeto Benito to become Leader of the Slightly Free World. But it's a high point for him and he's still behind in most swing states, let alone set to run the table like he'll have to do to overcome Hillary's electoral position.

* Since then, Trump had his Of Course Obama Was Born In Hawaii Wink Wink press conference, pissed off a planeload of press and made yet another oblique reference to Hillary being shot at. The balance shall be restored in time.

* None of this means OH HEY FINE I CAN RELAX AND GO BACK TO WATCHING WRASSLIN'. Keep working, keep phonebanking, keep bending the ear of moderates you know who might be wondering if this orange fuck might be okay after all. It's not done yet.
posted by delfin at 5:43 AM on September 17, 2016 [38 favorites]

It was their American Studies prof and he is brilliant, they say. Yesterday, I looked him up, and lo-behold, he is a white, mustached Boomer.

You had me at "American Studies."

Had me smacking my head that is
posted by spitbull at 5:48 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Her own arena tour, and LOTS of public walking and standing for weeks on end.

TWiRL for me, Hillary, twirl!
posted by Dashy at 5:48 AM on September 17, 2016 [30 favorites]

In other news, don't know if this has been mentioned yet but the Fraternal Order of Police has apparently endorsed Trump.

White supremacist organization supports white supremacist candidate?

I AM SHOCKED, SHOCKED! Well, not that shocked.
posted by Talez at 5:50 AM on September 17, 2016 [14 favorites]

The balance shall be restored in time.

Clinton has quite a bit of star power with more freedom to campaign now, too. The Obamas, Sanders, Warren, Bill, and Diamond Joe all have stumps to appear on over the next several weeks. Sanders made an appearance on television where he signalled his intention to campaign once his Senate responsibilities are taken care of and spent quite a bit of time talking about the danger of protest voting especially when most of the planks Sanders supporters care about are in Hillary's platform. He wrote Stein and Johnson off as ridiculous choices.
posted by xyzzy at 5:51 AM on September 17, 2016 [14 favorites]

I've been up most of the night reeling from Trump's second assassination incitation. "Let's see what happens to her" ... I just. No, no, no.

There was a brief discussion in the last thread about who would need to come out against Trump for his deplorables to see that this is terrifying, and after his comments last night, I think it's got to be the NRA. They need to disavow Trump now.
posted by erisfree at 6:02 AM on September 17, 2016

The NRA? They probably fed him the damn line.
posted by spitbull at 6:03 AM on September 17, 2016 [33 favorites]

I'm starting to wonder if Trump's shouting about how the election is rigged wasn't so much a complaint as it was a boast.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:03 AM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

Allowing the Gates Foundation to acquire the Clinton Foundation and walking 100% away from it, followed a couple of news cycles later by donating her entire 2013 and later corporate speaking fee income to charity and promising that she and Bill will eschew all corporate income

Can I be in the room when you tell Bill and Melinda that you are their new boss? Because that would be fun.

They have a very diferent foundation that does very different work and have expressed no interest in taking on a new job. I wish that people would quit using them as an easy way of avoiding the difficult discussion of what the Clintons giving up control of their foundation would actually involve.
posted by colt45 at 6:06 AM on September 17, 2016 [17 favorites]

Bernie Sanders calling anyone else a "ridiculous choice" is rich. Is he saying the third party candidates should drop out because they can't win or that his fans shouldn't vote for them because they have no chance to win? Or is it because they espouse far left or far libertarian ideological positions that certainly don't have majority support in the country but get their followers all riled up and excited about revolutions and such?

The holdout Bernie Bros I know mostly seem to consider the man himself a sellout or failure now anyway, so I'm not seeing how he convinces them. I suppose the idealistic teenagers who wouldn't otherwise vote even if they're old enough might be inspired, but only if they can put their voting moment on Instagram.
posted by spitbull at 6:10 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

As an American living abroad, watching this, as other people have called it, "post-fact" election cycle go down, I can't help but sweat profusely. I honestly cannot articulate anything beyond that. I don't want to explore the ramifications. This is far too terrifying to me. Listening to him pin the birther movement on Hillary yesterday was so absolutely bizarre. It's hard to believe that would work. I think what he has proven is that you can gaslight* a nation. All it takes is putting an idea or phrase of accusation out there, and suddenly everyone doubts their memories.

I am deeply troubled by his weakness. His business interests are everywhere. I have no doubt that he would be a president beholden to every powerful foreign interest. Knowing that you can goad and cajole and flatter him makes him corruptible. And corporations, private interests! I don't want to know who has him in their pocket and is ready to make him drop regulations, or elevate single individuals into government, etc.

At least I have dual citizenship and can distance myself when this pariah of a human being comes to represent America internationally. I've pretty much lost all hope.

I feel the shame personally, a little, as I was really busy this year and did not have time to register and subsequently vote. I understand it's too late now. Was voting in a swing state, too.



*I don't mean to make light of gaslighting. I understand that usually it is employed to describe a particularly disgusting situation of spousal abuse, and I am not trying to take away from that. I simply see parallels in the idea of undermining one's sense of reality through constant insistence to the contrary. No other word that more succinctly captures that idea in my vocabulary.
posted by constantinescharity at 6:11 AM on September 17, 2016 [20 favorites]

Mod note: A couple deleted. Sorry, but let's head off a hundred comments of debate about how many Linux users are Stein supporters?
posted by taz (staff) at 6:18 AM on September 17, 2016 [20 favorites]

@Lin_Manuel: Wherein your possible next president writes like a foulmouthed @MirandaSings. #Vote
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:19 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Metafilter: I'm also a Linux user, if that means anything to you.

(I'm also a Linux user. And voting for Sec. Clinton. Because she is an excellent candidate and because she is the only reasonable choice to defeat Trump. I'm voting my conscience.)
posted by Cookiebastard at 6:20 AM on September 17, 2016 [20 favorites]

If a beverage analogy is a better choice, I will herewith share my hitherto private nickname for Trump, which is "Pom Haaaaahrible." ("Horrible" as Trump pronounces it. "Pom" as in "pompadour.")
posted by spitbull at 6:25 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

I feel the shame personally, a little, as I was really busy this year and did not have time to register and subsequently vote. I understand it's too late now. Was voting in a swing state, too.

Are you sure? You haven't missed the deadline in most states. You may need to use DHL to get the registration in on time and make sure you get your ballot, but that should be doable, right? A couple of US citizen abroad sites will actually organise the DHL for you (tho not pay)
posted by frumiousb at 6:26 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

constantinescharity, avaaz has a tool set up to help US citizens abroad vote.
posted by frumiousb at 6:27 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

The best part of Politico's article on Trump encouraging Clinton's assassination again is the image chosen showing Trump's tiny, tiny hands.
posted by chris24 at 6:28 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

‘This Is Moral Cowardice’: Chris Hayes Grills Ex-Trump Aide Over Creating Birther Strategy

So Chris Hayes is grilling Sam Nunberg with Nina Turner.

Hayes asked him if he understands “that this was racist.” Nunberg said they found it wasn’t race that helped fuel this nonsense, it was “the Muslim name.”

I can't /facepalm Nunberg enough.
posted by Talez at 6:32 AM on September 17, 2016 [16 favorites]

I leave for Cote d'Ivoire the day after the election. My Ivorian friends were making fun of me: "Ah, you're fleeing to West Africa to avoid political instability in the United States!"
posted by ChuraChura at 6:32 AM on September 17, 2016 [168 favorites]

More Lin:

Tweeting≠voting.
Posting a video≠voting.
Your essay on FB≠voting.
If you CAN vote and you don't?
You've done nothing.
#Vote
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:33 AM on September 17, 2016 [35 favorites]

Taking about anything other than how to defeat Trump (actually defeat him here in reality in 64 days our whatever it is) to me is like being on a plane that is crashing and your seatmate is sitting there going, "Hmm, you know, I'm really concerned about the carbon footprint of air travel."

Yes, that is a valid concern and we really need to discuss how the choices we make in a modern western lifestyle impact climate change but right now WE ARE ALL ABOUT TO DIE, so it's kind of not a good time for me to chat.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:36 AM on September 17, 2016 [47 favorites]

I know Trump feels sincerely that, if the Secret Service is allowed to have guns, everybody should be allowed them. It just makes sense.

Fortunately, there's a simple compromise: anyone who wants a gun can have one, they just have to go through the kind of vetting and background checks that USSS agents go through.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 6:39 AM on September 17, 2016 [37 favorites]

I want someone to reassure me that our political systems and institutions are strong enough to survive even a President Trump, but I suspect if they did, I'd think they were just trying to make me feel good.
posted by hwestiii at 6:44 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

> I want someone to reassure me that our political systems and institutions are strong enough to survive even a President Trump, but I suspect if they did, I'd think they were just trying to make me feel good.

If they're not strong enough to prevent it, they sure as shit won't be strong enough to survive it.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:54 AM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

yet they spend the last 6 weeks letting him pack arenas full of regular Americans

I think the issue here is that "regular" actually means "old and white". (And he's not "packing" arenas, he's framing the shots well. You know that.) This isn't a personal dig. It's about how there's still a default assumption that certain people are "regular" (see also: endless coverage of middle-aged men with moustaches in Appalachian towns) and other people are "diet" or "caffeine-free" and so they don't count as much. Or "zero".

I do think there's a case for a little more visibility from Clinton, but there are clearly risks with more open and less formal events at this stage (not least security) and it's still judging time allocation by the standards of a candidate who doesn't have a proper campaign to preside over. (The phone bank room for his visit to Asheville was set up on the day by the county GOP for appearances and presented by Trump to the travelling press as "my secret weapon" as if it's been going on for ages. It's still a Potemkin campaign.)
posted by holgate at 6:56 AM on September 17, 2016 [28 favorites]

There is a reason we're relitigating the Sanders issue: no matter the amount of progressive policy, outreach or twirling, some Berniebros will never recognize her as a legitimate candidate, let alone the strongest one.

“There is something the campaign is hiding,” Ashley, who identified herself as a progressive, told me in an e-mail. “They want to call any question of her health a conspiracy theory. It’s not a theory, it’s a fact.”

The possibility of a cover-up even seems to have kept some Sanders supporters’ hopes alive that he could get back in the race. “This does NOT look like heat exhaustion to me,” a Reddit user recently commented in response to video showing Clinton leaving the 9/11 memorial. “It looks like she has a serious neurological disease; maybe she was having a stroke, maybe she has MS. Whatever it is, we the people need to know. SOON! Bernie must replace her, NOT Tim Kaine or Joe Biden!”

This isn’t the first time Sanders supporters and conservatives have fixated on rumor and innuendo in the hope that Clinton might be disqualified from the race.

posted by Dashy at 7:02 AM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

and other people are "diet" or "caffeine-free" and so they don't count as much. Or "zero".

Really? I thought other people were at least the Life verison of people. You know, 3/5th the calories of normal Coke.
posted by Talez at 7:03 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

I want someone to reassure me that our political systems and institutions are strong enough to survive even a President Trump, but I suspect if they did, I'd think they were just trying to make me feel good.

They survived Nixon (war on drugs black citizens, foreign coup, sabotaged peace talks), Reagan (brinkmanship, dismissing AIDS, letting staff handle essential functions), and even Jefferson Davis (admittedly after a civil war, but not every country survives those at all). Trump's set of ridiculous policies, lack of policies, and grifts disguised as policies all have their precedents—he could literally try to deport all the US Mexicans and Eisenhower would already have beaten him to it. And I doubt he would risk nuclear war more than the Cold War did.

I realize this doesn't actually sound reassuring, but you asked whether America's institutions would survive, not whether they'd do well.
posted by Rangi at 7:03 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

We are staring into the abyss of a Trump presidency, and many people are to blame

Just an FYI for Americans unfamiliar with Andrew Coyne: he is basically Canada's answer to David Brooks. (Unless he's changed drastically in the five or ten years since I last paid attention to his highminded handwringing.) Ignore ignore ignore.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:12 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

Pro-Tip 1: Ignore the numbers on national tracking polls just focus on the trend line. Yes Clinton is losing ground but Trump has only caught her twice and for very brief periods.

Pro-Tip 2: The media is forcing the horse race narrative because quite frankly most journalists are either lazy or under equipped. Punditry is easy a fuck to do and is cheap for publishers unlike investigative journalism.

Pro-Tip 3:Johnson and Stein are largely irrelevant as both will struggle to break 2 percent in votes. Polling numbers for 3rd party candidates are always much higher than the real vote percentage.

Pro-Tip 4: most polls underrepresent minority and youth voters. Additionally the LV screens most pollsters are using are outdated and predicated on Obama being a singular candidate and that the electorate will resemble 2014 or 2004. This is a really bad assumption.

Pro-Tip 5: The amount of campaign derailing shit that will hit around October and November against Trump means current high watee marks for him are going to recede.
posted by vuron at 7:19 AM on September 17, 2016 [22 favorites]

Trump finally gives up on his "remarkable campaign of relentless deception to undermine President Obama.

I'm gonna need to see the long form version of Trump's Birtherism disavowal, sorry.

Joy Reid on her AM Joy show on MSNBC is knockin' it outta the park at the moment, absolutely refusing to let the Trump surrogate she has on, Sean P. Jackson, get away with any bullshit, and simply ignoring him when he tries to dissemble rather than answering questions put to him.
posted by XMLicious at 7:23 AM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

Videos on How to Vote in Every State
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:24 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

> Are there any journalists here who can explain why this is happening? I mean, Trump has done 1,000,000 things worse than Clinton and it isn't getting play. Why?

One of the ten million dispiriting things about this election campaign is how it has shone a spotlight on how desperate vast swaths of the electorate are to avoid having a female president at any cost. Of course Trump has his rabid base, but there are others who are going to hold their noses while they cast their vote for him and for these people it comes down to Hillary Clinton vs. Literally Any Man. If that man happens to be Donald Trump, well...maybe he's not the ideal candidate, but better to roll the dice on him and see what happens than have a woman (especially this particular woman) in the Oval Office, right?
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:25 AM on September 17, 2016 [22 favorites]

I'm jaded and bitter, because of long experience. Claims that elections are rigged are true. And offered by the candidate who just isn't as good at rigging them as their opponent. Given what I've seen of Trump's leet photoshop skillz, it's going to be Clinton by > 25 points.

Hell, The Keyes Factor predicts only 27% for Trump when it counts, election day.
posted by mikelieman at 7:25 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump got his Android back this morning. Shitting on Robert Gates for his WaPo editorial and CNN.
posted by Talez at 7:27 AM on September 17, 2016

Yes it's another Joy Reid masterclass in how to deal with professional con artists on live TV. She is my hero lately.

I worked in a high end product sales gig for a couple of years to pay the college tuition. Watching Trump's minions punches all the buttons of classic hard selling. These same techniques are used to sell extended warranties on cars or time shares in Florida. It's pathetic that so few media "journalists" can't counter them, and I imagine they all have useless home alarm systems too.

Pro tip: when you next need to buy a car, prepare by watching Joy Reid shred a Trumpie.
posted by spitbull at 7:29 AM on September 17, 2016 [18 favorites]

no matter the amount of progressive policy, outreach or twirling, some Berniebros will never recognize her as a legitimate candidate, let alone the strongest one.

Basket of not-deplorables, but not-really-helping-either. If people are that wild-eyed, no amount of outreach will ever reach them, and you just have to put your resources where they can be better used instead.

Trautman: It's over Johnny. It's over!

posted by mikelieman at 7:29 AM on September 17, 2016

Having witnessed Brexit, I thought briefly of putting money on a Trump victory, though then realised that, were it to happen, my winnings would be of very limited use in the world to come.
posted by acb at 7:31 AM on September 17, 2016 [10 favorites]

Watching Trump's minions punches all the buttons of classic hard selling.

Or the classic grift.

Matt Yglesias made a good point about CNN and "balance": the network had conventional Trump-sceptic conservatives on its panels during the primary, and as Trump rose, they got shuffled out and replaced by Trumpers like Lord and (the ringer) Lewendowski. That's even before considering the willingness to air duckspeakers like Katrina Pierson. Classic "both sides" journalism, but one of the "two sides" got recalibrated on the sly to exclude ongoing criticism from within its own party.
posted by holgate at 7:43 AM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

Having grown up in the mid-south, I have a lot of conservative family and friends. I keep starting a FB post "Look, I don't want to say you're a stupid fucking asshole for supporting Trump..." but I just don't know how to finish that sentence. Kind of paints me into a corner.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:44 AM on September 17, 2016 [30 favorites]

I'm not worried about whether our political system will survive- I'm worried about whether my son will survive. The country may get through four years of the anti- Christ Trump but individual people will suffer and die.
posted by SyraCarol at 7:48 AM on September 17, 2016 [23 favorites]

Just remove the don't.
posted by delfin at 7:49 AM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

you guys seem to like it, but maybe building a campaign around being not-Trump was a bad idea.

it's amazing how totally hermetically sealed in a bubble these election threads are. if your candidate loses it won't be her fault or your fault but the result of a soft conspiracy of nazis, leftists, and the mass media to elect a candidate who you deem illegitimate and may be an agent of Russia.

this election has shown that mild-mannered upper middle class Democratic voters can buy into the "paranoid strain" of American politics as much as any Bircher clipping out news articles in his basement..
posted by ennui.bz at 7:51 AM on September 17, 2016 [26 favorites]

By "hard selling" I *meant* grift, to be clear. This is when you sell a product you know is not what you say it is, not worth the price you're trying to extract, and in many cases only "exists" as a sort of prestigious placebo ("the very best brand ever," "your family won't be burdened with funeral costs," etc.). And you know that your customer/mark doesn't trust you and has the rational ability to see through you, which you have to disable by a noxious combination of phony alliance ("if I were in your shoes") and aggressive intimidation ("you'll look like a dumbass if you don't spring for the upgraded luxury package at this small upcharge") and a few other basic psychological manipulations familiar to sociopaths and salesmen alike.

You can learn these techniques systematically. I learned a softer version of them selling fine wine to status-conscious rich folks. Or watch any one of a hundred movies about grifting and sales. There are books and seminars and websites and podcasts devoted to this shit.

And Trump's crew aren't even good at it.
posted by spitbull at 7:52 AM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Allowing the Gates Foundation to acquire the Clinton Foundation and walking 100% away from it

The Gates Foundation is a private foundation. The Clinton Foundation is a public charity. They are two entirely different types of legal entities.
posted by JackFlash at 7:53 AM on September 17, 2016 [24 favorites]

> And Trump's crew aren't even good at it.

And yet here we are.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:54 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

Margaret Sullivan, WaPo: It’s time for TV news to stop playing the stooge for Donald Trump

Oh lordy. Media, pundit thyself.

Given that she is talking only about TV news, I don't see any self-awareness at all.
posted by JackFlash at 7:55 AM on September 17, 2016

DirtyOldTown: "People who trusted Trump and got stiffed, a short list: ... a grifter gets people to believe him right until the money's gone and he's skipped out of town."

(I hate to cede explicit control over this election to people with real money and non-elected power, but I'm also quite certain that Trump has burned enough people who keep good records and won't care about NDAs or other contractual shit if that's what's necessary. But again, actual-billionaire ex machina is not a plan.)
posted by holgate at 7:56 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

And yet here we are.

The campaign is an unmitigated dumpster fire and LA times says Trump is up 6 points.

Nothing matters anymore. Campaigns, policy, works. None of it matters to half the electorate. We're might as well choose the president by lot.
posted by Talez at 7:58 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yes because the media also work on a grift-based poetics and political economy. Reality TV is a grift, in fact. Almost the definition of a con game in fact.

Trump himself is very good at the sales techniques I mentioned, unlike most of his immediate surrogates. It's his essential skill.
posted by spitbull at 7:58 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's not paranoia if someone really is out to get you.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:00 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Actually totally worth mentioning the intersection of classic griftsmanship, con artistry, and hard selling with the PUA thing, too. Same techniques and Trump's campaign has shown us the Venn diagram.
posted by spitbull at 8:03 AM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Most of the time, my theory is that the whole Trump campaign is a Producers-type scam which has gotten way out of hand. The Trumps have tons of bad issue and devised this as a way of distracting investors (maybe mainly Russian), Deutsche Bank, the IRS and all those contractors and others they are not paying. They imagined they would get the 27% of the vote and some time off from all the invoices in order to get their s..t together and flee to some tax haven or weird dictatorship like Korea or Venezuela. And then now wtf is going on?!?
Thats most of the time. At other times, I'm just curled up in the dog's basket, hoping for all of this to disappear.
posted by mumimor at 8:05 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Gates Foundation is a private foundation. The Clinton Foundation is a public charity. They are two entirely different types of legal entities.

They are actually both 501(c) organizations, although it is correct that the CF is classified as a public charity and the GF as a private foundation. The biggest difference (aside from setting up a lucrative career in mapping out legal fine-print) seems to be that "private foundations" are subject to much more stringent IRS scrutiny than "public charity". Take that as you will...
posted by ennui.bz at 8:05 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

you guys seem to like it, but maybe building a campaign around being not-Trump was a bad idea.

Is there a precise percentage of her campaign effort that she's allowed to use to draw contrasts with her opponent? It would be political malpractice to not use Trump's negatives against him, and if your point is that she should have tried harder to run to the left to increase support in her base, I'd like to know exactly what your counterfactual is.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:07 AM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

you guys seem to like it, but maybe building a campaign around being not-Trump was a bad idea.

As far as I can tell, the central message of her campaign is "we should escalate hostilities with Russia."
posted by dialetheia at 8:10 AM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

This is the part of the thread cycle where we ritually reenact the primaries
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:10 AM on September 17, 2016 [53 favorites]

Is there a precise percentage of her campaign effort that she's allowed to use to draw contrasts with her opponent? It would be political malpractice to not use Trump's negatives against him, and if your point is that she should have tried harder to run to the left to increase support in her base, I'd like to know exactly what your counterfactual is.

You are free to blame the "mass media" for this, but the bulk of this thread is Clinton supporters saying, in effect, she is "not Trump", and enumerating all of the bad things about Trump. This is evidence enough for how her campaign is centered on Trump. Are her supporters really so far off message? Should they be talking about something else?

If they should be talking about something other than Trump then that is a massive failure of her campaign's messaging.
posted by ennui.bz at 8:13 AM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

and LA times says Trump is up 6 points.

Do we have to do this again? The LA Times tracker made some odd assumptions about self-reported 2012 voting, and it's also a rolling weekly average where respondents rate candidates on a scale from 1-100, not yes/no, and that rating becomes the LV screen. So a week where Trumpers are more enthusiastic and Clinton supporters less so gets converted into %ages.

(It's also gameable: if Trump supporters on the panel know that rating 100 every time boosts the %age, they're going to keep doing that.)

This sounds like unskewing, I know, but LAT/USC is such a damn outlier.
posted by holgate at 8:15 AM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Pro-Tip 1: Ignore the numbers on national tracking polls just focus on the trend line. Yes Clinton is losing ground but Trump has only caught her twice and for very brief periods.

[...]

posted by vuron at 9:19 AM on September 17 [6 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

Oh thank god you're back vuron. Please talk the people down.

This is the part of the thread cycle where we ritually reenact the primaries

the simultaneity I predicted yesterday has come.

WHAT DO THEY WANT. I OFFER MYSELF AS BLOOD SACRIFICE TRIBUTE
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:15 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

You guys, as a distraction, looking at a lot of pictures of a beautiful person roughly your age--in order to scientifically determine how much better they look than you do--works wonders.

Lucille Frances Lawless is less than a year younger than I am, too. This is a conspiracy, and everyone's in on it.
posted by maxwelton at 8:15 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

If antifascism is insufficient for you as a motivating force in this election, I envy your obliviousness to the world and hope that the world is equally oblivious to you.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:16 AM on September 17, 2016 [37 favorites]

You guys, as a distraction, looking at a lot of pictures of a beautiful person roughly your age--in order to scientifically determine how much better they look than you do--works wonders.

but I'm already depressed
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:19 AM on September 17, 2016 [14 favorites]

This is the part of the thread cycle where we ritually reenact the primaries

I'm kind of tired of the specter of the primaries being invoked as a means of terminating any discussion about the lack of unity on the left, which is a very serious problem that goes far beyond a single Presidential primary. Given that Clinton and Sanders are now on the same side, I think the remaining points of contention are at the heart of what it takes to build a winning electoral coalition, and we should be able to discuss them without people assuming it's about what happened months ago.

We're all adults here, and we all know the primaries are over. Shouting down anyone who defends Clinton against charges of insufficient outreach to the left flank of the Democratic coalition with accusations that they're trying to re-litigate the primaries is kind of shitty.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:19 AM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

I wouldn't think it would have been such a small step from "They're all the same so it doesn't matter who I vote for" to "If I can't have the perfect president of my dreams it's okay for the Nazi candidate to win."
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:20 AM on September 17, 2016 [36 favorites]

whenever I get frustrated in these threads it always helps to remind myself that Clinton and her team are in all likelihood far more intelligent and competent than her detractors or even supporters will ever allow
posted by um at 8:23 AM on September 17, 2016 [27 favorites]

I'm kind of tired of the specter of the primaries being invoked as a means of terminating any discussion about the lack of unity on the left, which is a very serious problem that goes far beyond a single Presidential primary. Given that Clinton and Sanders are now on the same side, I think the remaining points of contention are at the heart of what it takes to build a winning electoral coalition, and we should be able to discuss them without people assuming it's about what happened months ago.

We're all adults here, and we all know the primaries are over. Shouting down anyone who defends Clinton against charges of insufficient outreach to the left flank of the Democratic coalition with accusations that they're trying to re-litigate the primaries is kind of shitty.

Sorry if it looked like I was doing that, because I agree with you. Roland Martin said yesterday that the Clinton campaign has an "intensity problem", and this is probably part of it.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:23 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Still waiting on my absentee ballot over here. Yup. Sent the paperwork at the end of the July and I have nothing. I will be a sad panda if I don't get to vote.
posted by Kitteh at 8:24 AM on September 17, 2016

As far as I can tell, the central message of her campaign is "we should escalate hostilities with Russia."

I don't get that from her position paper. There's plenty of room to criticize various aspects of Clinton's foreign policy from the left (although please god let's wait until after the fascists are defeated at the polls) -- but what other sane response is there to a regime that launched what, to my understanding, is the first inter-state invasion in Europe since 1945? Serious question.

It's not like she's advocating nukes over Moscow on January 21. She's just saying she's not going to roll over for Putin, and that by the way Donald Trump has some disturbing links to the Russian oligarchy. I don't see the problem here, and I also don't see how this is anything close to a "central message" of her campaign.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:27 AM on September 17, 2016 [54 favorites]

They are actually both 501(c) organizations, although it is correct that the CF is classified as a public charity and the GF as a private foundation. The biggest difference (aside from setting up a lucrative career in mapping out legal fine-print) seems to be that "private foundations" are subject to much more stringent IRS scrutiny than "public charity".

The legal difference between the two is established in Section 509(a). Operationally, one type is in the business of giving money away, and other is in the business of raising money. It goes way beyond "scrutiny."
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:28 AM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

Sent the paperwork at the end of the July and I have nothing.

I'm sure the answer is yes, but did you call to check on the hold-up?

While registering to vote here in Missouri, my registration was delayed because: (1) (and this is a direct statement) "we had an election, so we were behind processing the registrations" and (2) they (unlike the Feds) were somehow unable to verify my social security number.

I had to go into the election board (8-5 pm, Mon-Friday) and present my social security card for them to process my application.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 8:28 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

If antifascism is insufficient for you as a motivating force in this election, I envy your obliviousness to the world and hope that the world is equally oblivious to you.

I don't say this lightly or without thought, but the most immediate fascist threat comes from: if Trump is elected, he will be seen as illegitimate and not-fit for the presidency by most of the political elite, of both parties. And who will be the "foot-soldiers" in the campaign to delegitimize and remove an elected preisdent... the good-citizens of metafilter.

fascism is about how elites begin to see the rule of law turn against it's owners and begin to see it as a suicide pact. fascism in the US will look like a "color" revolution in Eastern Europe or the Middle East. A big popular protest against a corrupt and dangerous leader, people out in the streets, and finally a sudden collapse in power, a resignation or even something more dramatic. It will feel good, like real change is finally happening. But it will be driven by those political elites who have come to see civil society and law as a threat to their position.
posted by ennui.bz at 8:30 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's about the tone and messaging, not position papers. Democrats over the last month have sounded unhinged calling all of their critics Kremlin stooges.
posted by dialetheia at 8:30 AM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

and that by the way Donald Trump has some disturbing links to the Russian oligarchy.

There's this weird "heh, the Dems keep blaming the Russians for everything" thing on left twitter ever since those infosec firms fingered Russian intelligence for the DNC hack and it would be more annoying than outright denial of reality is if the smugness it's always posted with wasn't so baffling.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:30 AM on September 17, 2016 [10 favorites]

> whenever I get frustrated in these threads it always helps to remind myself that Clinton and her team are in all likelihood far more intelligent and competent than her detractors or even supporters will ever allow

It's not the intelligence and competence of Clinton and her team I'm worried about.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:31 AM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Do you guys think my deck chair would look better over here, by the pool? Or over here, closer to the railing?
posted by kythuen at 8:32 AM on September 17, 2016 [60 favorites]

It's about the tone and messaging, not position papers. Democrats over the last month have sounded unhinged calling all of their critics Kremlin stooges.

I'm not sure I understand the linkage between nameless "Democrats" sounding unhinged and the "central message" of Clinton's campaign.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:34 AM on September 17, 2016 [17 favorites]

It's weird I have pretty acute anxiety about a lot of issues but the current state of the 2016 election is very very low level.

Latino support of Trump is below 20%, African-American support is in the single digits. Other minority groups are also heavily against Trump.

Trump is doing awful with Women voters regardless of ethnicity. Even College educated white males are only barely supporting Trump.

The simple fact of the matter is that while Trump has strong support from White, less educated males he can only achieve the low 40s with that voter block.

The only way the current race is as close as it appears is if the third party candidates are actually pulling more than 10% and if those votes are coming disproportionately from disaffected Democrats and Independents. However third party candidates are non viable and the number of people willing to register a protest vote is actually pretty small.

People like winners and most of the third party support will vanish in the ballot box.
posted by vuron at 8:34 AM on September 17, 2016 [28 favorites]

Democrats over the last month have sounded unhinged calling all of their critics Kremlin stooges.

Yes, it's the Dems who are unhinged, not the candidate calling for Russia to cyberattack the US. Which they have done. Why would Dems want to mention that or how Trump and his campaign have sucked up to Putin, changed the Republican platform on Ukraine, employed a campaign manager still in the employ of Putin-affiliated oligarchs, lied about their financial ties to Russia, refused to release taxes that would show foreign entanglements, etc., etc. Unhinged indeed.
posted by chris24 at 8:37 AM on September 17, 2016 [63 favorites]

These general election demographic arguments fall pretty flat. If the most recent state-by-state polling holds, Trump only needs to flip one more state: either PA, MI or WI, from blue to red, to win. He could do that without a strong minority coalition. This really is a very close race at the moment.
posted by dis_integration at 8:38 AM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

Are there any journalists here who can explain why this is happening? I mean, Trump has done 1,000,000 things worse than Clinton and it isn't getting play. Why?

I think on this past Friday's NPR Politics podcast that had a listener question similar to this. Their answer was that Clinton's weakness has always been trust and Trump's weakness is his fitness to serve as president. Those two things by this point have been baked in to each candidate and affect the way both are seen.

First, there's polarization. Folks who are diehard Republicans or who just don't like Clinton will find whatever reason not to vote for. So since the narrative is around her trust as a person, they will grab onto that as a reason.

Second (and the meat of it, I think), trust isn't a big of an issue with Trump because he's said himself and built his campaign around saying whatever comes to his mind and being spontaneous, so that inoculates him from the normal things that would sink mainstream candidates. While Hillary Clinton has built her campaign around competence, so anything that would ding that narrative (like trust issues) would be more harmful.

Finally related to Clinton building her campaign around competence, they pointed to racism and sexism as a reason why women and POC always have to tout their accomplishments as a way to say they deserve to be on stage. In turn that racism and sexism would also contribute to more questions on Clinton's trust.
posted by FJT at 8:39 AM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

TYT: Bernie Sanders On Voting Third Party

Actually, TYT uses Bernie's statements as a jumping off point for discussing third party voting this cycle.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:39 AM on September 17, 2016

Heh, I think you can advocate against Russian imperialism in the form of creating puppet states and pretty much engaging in wars of conquests over former Soviet Republics without wanting to see a return to the Cold War.

The ties of Trump to the coterie of oligarchs surrounding Putin is definitely of concern. There is a large number of options between launching nukes at the Kremlin and rolling over as Putin absorbs the Ukraine and the Baltics.
posted by vuron at 8:41 AM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

One of Obama's best lines in 2012: “The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the Cold War’s been over for 20 years.”
posted by dialetheia at 8:45 AM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

Actually, TYT uses Bernie's statements as a jumping off point for discussing third party voting this cycle.
Four white men. Just saying
posted by mumimor at 8:45 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

So the only major demographic Trump is leading with is white, non-college educated men and it's still enough to put him in something very close to a statistical tie with Clinton?
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:48 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

One of Obama's best lines in 2012: “The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the Cold War’s been over for 20 years.”

A laugh line from four years ago is evidence of... what, exactly?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:51 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

"Basket of Deporables" seems like it happened years ago now but Ta-Nehisi Coates talks with On The Media about it and how she was basically right. No transcript yet but it's always nice to hear Coates' voice.
posted by octothorpe at 8:52 AM on September 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

So the only major demographic Trump is leading with is white, non-college educated men and it's still enough to put him in something very close to a statistical tie with Clinton?

Your system isn't proportional: "Several of Trump’s worst demographic groups happen to be concentrated in states, such as California, New York, Texas and Utah, that are either not competitive or that aren’t on Trump’s must-win list. Conversely, whites without a college degree — one of Trump’s strongest groups — represent a huge bloc in three blue states he would need to turn red to have the best chance of winning 270 electoral votes: Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania."
posted by effbot at 8:52 AM on September 17, 2016 [18 favorites]

So the only major demographic Trump is leading with is white, non-college educated men and it's still enough to put him in something very close to a statistical tie with Clinton?

Trump is also strong with white, non-college educated women. Like a tie with HRC.

The answer is yes. If minority groups were evenly distributed throughout the US then it wouldn't be the case. But, for example, winning the Latino vote doesn't do HRC much good if she wins it in Texas and Arizona, where the white vote will carry Trump anyway, or in California and New York, where she's going to win by default. As it stands, though, white men and women are still the most important voting demographic.
posted by dis_integration at 8:53 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Pennsylvania won't turn red, or Wisconsin, or Michigan. Yes there are a ton of racists and misogynists in all three states but in each of those states the current LV screens basically assume minority turnout will be awful and tbh based upon the amount of engagement I have seen in minority communities the idea that minorities won't vote because of no Obama are absolutely laughable.

Nevada and Colorado have extremely difficult minority populations to poll so supposed weakness by Clinton is artificially high.

Unfortunately the simple fact of the matter is that current polling methods tend to heavily undervalue ninority and younger voters.

For most younger voters there isn't a landline to get a hold if them and seriously how often do you answer cell calls from out of state? It doesn't take many IRS and Microsoft tech support scam calls to stop answering out of state calls. If the person really wants to get a hold if me they leave a message. However pollsters don't leave messages.

Unfortunately there aren't other modalities of polling that don't have even worse problems.
posted by vuron at 8:53 AM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

One of Obama's best lines in 2012: “The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the Cold War’s been over for 20 years.”

Were the Russians hacking the candidates and parties in 2012 and releasing the info to influence the election in 2012?
posted by chris24 at 8:54 AM on September 17, 2016 [16 favorites]

And Russia Today has cultivated a media space where anti-US-establishment politics of left and right get all stewed up: sort of a Democracy... Well, Maybe Later! Come for the criticism of the NSA, drone strikes and Israeli settlement expansion, stay for our interview with Julian Assange!
posted by holgate at 8:55 AM on September 17, 2016 [18 favorites]

A laugh line from four years ago is evidence of... what, exactly?

That Americans hate the idea of restarting the Cold War, mostly. Is there evidence that people care about (or even believe) the hacking stuff?
posted by dialetheia at 8:56 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Just wanted to say good luck, we're all counting on you.
posted by Trochanter at 8:56 AM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

LA Times' Chris Megerian: Hillary Clinton has millennials' support, and now she's trying to make sure they vote.

Good antidote to panic.
posted by spitbull at 8:59 AM on September 17, 2016 [15 favorites]

Is there evidence that people care about (or even believe) the hacking stuff?

CNN poll from August 2.

"Nearly 6-in-10 see the country as unfriendly, and about half say they think the Russian government is attempting to influence the outcome of the US presidential election."
posted by chris24 at 9:03 AM on September 17, 2016

For most younger voters there isn't a landline to get a hold if them and seriously how often do you answer cell calls from out of state? It doesn't take many IRS and Microsoft tech support scam calls to stop answering out of state calls. If the person really wants to get a hold if me they leave a message. However pollsters don't leave messages.

When our arguments become: calm down, the polls are wrong! that's a sign of desperation. Polling is conducted by cellphones now, and pollsters do leave messages. They do callback polls. The polls are probably not wrong. Maybe the likely voter determinations are wrong, I could be convinced of that. But let's put this claim that the polls are skewed because they call landlines to bed.
posted by dis_integration at 9:03 AM on September 17, 2016 [20 favorites]

That Americans hate the idea of restarting the Cold War, mostly.

Yes, and when asked to support your contention that Clinton and her campaign are escalating in 2016, you're choosing instead to restate your premise by linking to something from Obama in 2012. A lot has changed with respect to Russia's foreign policy since 2012, and the guy who uttered those words has been at the helm throughout. Do you think he wanted things to escalate?

The thing about bilateral foreign relations is that you can only control what your side does. It's hard to agree with the notion that Clinton should have the same stance toward Russia as Obama did in 2012 when Obama doesn't have the same stance toward Russia that he did in 2012. Things change, often in ways we can't imagine at the time, and it's sort of dispiriting to see this kind of grasping at straws to paint Clinton as the one who's escalating based on such flimsy evidence.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:04 AM on September 17, 2016 [35 favorites]

Come for the criticism of the NSA, drone strikes and Israeli settlement expansion, stay for our interview with Julian Assange!

And Cenk Uygur, and Ed Shultz, and Michael Flynn, and Jill Stein! Russia is still fantastically good at propaganda/soft power, and we're seeing this cycle how many marginal "journalists" and rabble rousers on both the left and the right are perfectly happy to pocket Putin's money to sew dissent in any and all directions.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:06 AM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

Unreal.
posted by dialetheia at 9:13 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

> "Unfortunately the simple fact of the matter is that current polling methods tend to heavily undervalue ninority and younger voters."

I've seen no evidence that this is the case and it sounds an awful lot like "unskewing" to me.
posted by kyrademon at 9:19 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Bob Gates: Trump is 'beyond repair':

Neither presidential candidate has offered a compelling vision on national security, former Defense Secretary Bob Gates writes in a scathing Wall Street Journal op-ed -- but Donald Trump is “beyond repair.”

posted by kirkaracha at 9:20 AM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

The reality is that the polls consistently underestimated minority turnout for the entire primary season and yes primaries aren't general election polling but there is some pretty clear signs that pollsters do pretty shitty jobs of actually polling minority (and younger voters). Add in the high margin of error for the minority and younger voter crosstabs and the reality is that you can honestly raises concerns about polling methodologies without getting into "unskewing" territory.

Even if undersampling minorities and millenials is a small degree of variation and the LV screens also introduce uncertainty the combined effect can definitely result in big variations. 538 and others try to account for those effects but even then there is still some big issues with the polling averages.
posted by vuron at 9:21 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's weird that Trump has quadrupled his 538 probability of winning (10% to 40%) in the last month. What gives?

> this is not the time for a protest vote

That depends on where you live. If you live in a non-swing state, there is no reason not to vote your conscience.

I know MetaFilter is strongly critical of Stein voters, but there is no other way for progressives to pull the Democratic Party to the left other than refusing to vote for hawkish centre-right nominees beholden to Wall Street. Cornel West is not an idiot.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:23 AM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

> There is a reason we're relitigating the Sanders issue...

Quoting somebody on reddit with a crackpot theory that Clinton's going to drop out does not convince me I'm delusional, mentally defective misogynist, racist bigot because I support idea that all US citizens should have access to health care, increasing the minimum wage and paid parental leave. I don't how you think it could, since I'm not the guy on reddit, and the guy on reddit, if he was here to read your comment, probably wouldn't agree his theory is nuts. What do expect to accomplish with attacks like this?

Seriously, take taz's advice and lay off of this. All I get from your comment is that there's a nutso fringe of Bernie supporters who can't accept the idea that idea that he lost, and there's a fanatical core of of Clinton supporters who simply can't accept that we have primaries to elect our nominee and people can vote for different candidates for the nomination, even if they're different from your preferred candidate. But I knew both of those things already.

I'm supporting Clinton for president against Trump, even though she was my second choice for nomination, not my first. She's an extremely smart and competent liberal Democratic candidate (though she's not very economically progressive). She'll probably be a good president. We'll argue about our policy differences later and in future primaries, but for now we just have get our candidate elected. I wish you could take a similar philosophical attitude, but obviously you can't or won't even though you won.
posted by nangar at 9:24 AM on September 17, 2016 [15 favorites]

No other way? What about voting for Clinton at the top of the ticket because she's a better candidate to work with the more progressive people you're voting for and supporting down ticket?
posted by R343L at 9:25 AM on September 17, 2016 [43 favorites]

In other words, you don't fundamentally pull the party left by your presidential vote. You do that by voting left in the House and Senate and in your state legislative bodies. Cleverly this is also how you get progressive legislation implemented.
posted by R343L at 9:27 AM on September 17, 2016 [70 favorites]

> "... there is no other way for progressives to pull the Democratic Party to the left ..."

That's not true. Which is probably a good thing, because it doesn't actually work.
posted by kyrademon at 9:28 AM on September 17, 2016 [36 favorites]

This comment is a bookmark and a reminder that down-ticket votes are what put policy into place. Any ideas about what I can do to help the Palmdale-area Dem take a seat in the house?
posted by infinitewindow at 9:29 AM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Regarding skew, if anything, the most systematic and dramatic errors of the last decade have been in underestimating the conservative vote. Both Nate Silver and the woman who runs Pollster have agreed with me in conversation that something may be systematically a bit skewed both in the US and the UK in recent years, but if anything, it's in the liberal direction.
posted by chortly at 9:30 AM on September 17, 2016

but there is no other way for progressives to pull the Democratic Party to the left

Other than, you know, doing what Bernie did this election and working from within the party.
posted by chris24 at 9:30 AM on September 17, 2016 [51 favorites]

That depends on where you live. If you live in a non-swing state, there is no reason not to vote your conscience.

What about as a way to show how much the American people repudiate Donald Trump and all the toxic and terrible shit he's gleefully brought into the mainstream that will no doubt continue to poison future elections, politics, and probably greater American society?
posted by FJT at 9:30 AM on September 17, 2016 [24 favorites]

Protest votes are silent voices screaming into unpowered microphones hooked up to read-only storage.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:34 AM on September 17, 2016 [46 favorites]

I know MetaFilter is strongly critical of Stein voters, but there is no other way for progressives to pull the Democratic Party to the left other than refusing to vote for hawkish centre-right nominees beholden to Wall Street.

That was disproven in this election. Clinton is running on the most progressive platform in the history of the Democratic Party after input from Sanders.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:34 AM on September 17, 2016 [50 favorites]

Mod note: Okay seriously we're not relitigating the primaries. And we probably don't need a full and complete rehash of "Third Parties: Smart Protest or World-Terminating Debacle?" either.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 9:34 AM on September 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

In other words, you don't fundamentally pull the party left by your presidential vote. You do that by voting left in the House and Senate and in your state legislative bodies. Cleverly this is also how you get progressive legislation implemented.

Which is a fundamental problem most folks have with Stein and the Green party. They have no local presence in most places. No political infrastructure, not even a strategy to get one. I've visited their website and it's a shambles. It basically boils down to "if you wanna start a local co-op veggie garden that's cool, but also vote for Stein!" Stein's Green party is not Germany's Green party,in fact, it's hardly a party at all.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:34 AM on September 17, 2016 [34 favorites]

I'm curious, how can a campaign (and even a supporter) try to get through to anyone on a platform other than "not Trump" when every time Hillary comes up, there is instant combativeness? The personal supporter side is how it seems on FB and the emails and Foundation stuff from a campaign side. My perception seems to see it as supporting Clinton is grounds for immediate attack. Obviously it's different here but let's face it, we're not the standard group of people.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 9:37 AM on September 17, 2016 [10 favorites]

Mod note: dialetheia, drop it, we are not relitigating the primaries.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 9:38 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Conservative voter turnout is typically underestimated in non presidential years and liberal voter turnout is underestimated in presidential years.

Or more specifically liberals don't vote when it's not for Presidents.

However ever voter screen I have seen thus far this year seems to believe that Obama was an aberration and I just haven't seen evidence that is accurate.

Voter enthusiasm might be reduced but voters know about the candidates and they hate Trump. Granted they dislike Clinton but by a smaller amount.
posted by vuron at 9:45 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

My perception seems to see it as supporting Clinton is grounds for immediate attack.

Yeah, it's getting pretty bad out in the real world too. People at work are openly talking badly about Clinton. And it's not criticism on issues either. But it's not too surprisingly, they've also said that Obama is a Muslim. So, I've just mostly tried to be polite and just not talk or respond to anything about politics anymore.
posted by FJT at 9:48 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

If a beverage analogy is a better choice, I will herewith share my hitherto private nickname for Trump, which is "Pom Haaaaahrible." ("Horrible" as Trump pronounces it. "Pom" as in "pompadour.")

Yet another reason to despise Trump, as though we needed one: he's co-opted common New York regionalisms like "HAHR-ible" (that's the way native New Yorkers pronounce it; we also say "AHR-inj" and "FLAH-rida" and "FAHR-ist" for orange and Florida and forest).

Same goes for "believe me," which I hadn't even identified as a regionalism until I realized with horror that I tend to punctuate sentences with that phrase too, as does my mother (born in Queens, as Trump was), as did my grandfather -- all native New Yorkers. But it is one.

And now it looks like we're imitating Trump. Fuck.
posted by holborne at 9:48 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

At least we know she knows where France is.

Sorry, I'm not getting the reference. Cite?
posted by IndigoJones at 9:50 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

I know MetaFilter is strongly critical of Stein voters, but there is no other way for progressives to pull the Democratic Party to the left other than refusing to vote for hawkish centre-right nominees beholden to Wall Street. Cornel West is not an idiot.

If there was no other way of pulling the Democratic Party to the left then handing over the Presidency to Donald Trump then you might as well give up now.

Fortunately there is. The Tea Party have demonstrated that if you primary the House and Senate members in your direction in the safer seats it both puts the people you want into the House and Senate and it moves the rest of them in your direction. Bernie Sanders has demonstrated that if you primary the Presidential nominee and lose but do a good job you still get the most progressive platform in the history of the party.

Successful examples both that fly in the face of the claim that there's no other way to pull the Democratic Party to the left.

On the other hand you right now have the most left wing platform in Democratic Party history. The Republican Party nominee is Donald Trump. If the combination of the two is not enough to persuade you to vote for Clinton then you are demonstrating one thing. The price for your vote is too high for the Democratic Party to be worth bothering even paying lip service to going after. The most progressive platform in history isn't propgressive enough for you. The worst opponent since possibly Barry Goldwater, possibly before that isn't bad enough for you. It's your way or the high way and you demand a veto on the entire Democratic Party platform rather than just having about 80% of the Sanders platform.

At that point it becomes the highway. The centre right highway that pays no attention to you because no matter how much pandering is done to you you are demonstrating it will never under any circumstances be enough. So they might as well ignore you and yours entirely and go with the larger coalition.

If you wish Clinton was more left wing and had a more progressive platform then speak up as much as you like. Loudly. Please. It both keeps the issues going and reassures the moderates.

If on the other hand you want to punish the Democratic Party for not implementing more than 80% of the Sanders platform you aren't an effective progressive in any way, shape, or form. You are making sure that the progressive platform becomes untenable in national politics because it's not even worth bothering trying for Progressive votes.
posted by Francis at 9:50 AM on September 17, 2016 [141 favorites]

"At least we know she knows where France is.
Sorry, I'm not getting the reference. Cite?"

Hamilton, obvs
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:53 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's a decent rule of thumb that the winning party tends to be underestimated, but when the winning party in a presidential election is Republican, they too tend to be underestimated. But that is a known (if empirically ill-supported) effect. The recent misses in 2010, 2014, Brexit, Scottish independence, etc, are a separate thing, if they mean anything at all. But the experts in the field do worry the ever-shifting voter models might be a bit off these days.
posted by chortly at 9:53 AM on September 17, 2016

I actually want to talk about the so-called "enthusiasm" gap. There's a lot at play here but here are some reasons folks are less enthusiastic about Clinton, fair or not:

* it's not cool in some sub-groups to support the middle of the road, the "boring", the effective. Hillary Clinton is perceived as all of these.
* we're not used to women leaders or what they look like or how they behave.
* women are often taught they can't support women because they'll be perceived as supporting her just for that (and that's bad even though it shouldn't.)
* men are not raised to see women as fully formed humans in the public sphere. This literally starts with childhood where books overwhelmingly have male protagonists even when they are anthropomorphized animals!
* the media talks more about the latest scandal of the day rather than policies and how they apply to people

Is it any wonder enthusiasm is "lacking"?
posted by R343L at 9:56 AM on September 17, 2016 [56 favorites]

Unfortunately some people on the margins seem to think that the only elections that matter are the presidential ones.

Progressives get more influence when they consistently show up not just for the big elections but all of the small ones as well.

Showing up in a inconsistent manner and then trying to hold the party hostage for your vote means you get marginalized because the political parties reward groups that consistentially show up in the form if voting and/or financial giving.
posted by vuron at 10:00 AM on September 17, 2016 [21 favorites]

Primary relitigation aside, in my opinion Cornel West may not be an "idiot" but he's a disingenuous bigot (who used the"n-word" to describe President Obama in the opposite sense from what Larry Wilmore meant by doing that) and who is not nearly as smart as some people think he is and is entirely engaged in self-dealing in his public intellectual life.
posted by spitbull at 10:01 AM on September 17, 2016 [15 favorites]

Enthusiasm might also be lacking because the Clinton campaign doesn't have an effective way to combat the Trump media domination.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:03 AM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

Hillary Clinton offers a number of compelling reasons to support her for president , many of which she brings up at each campaign stop, rally and event. Her policy positions are pretty easy to find and she's been very vocal about them.

But I'll offer another compelling reason that is worth hammering on - the Supreme Court. The next president is going to be in a position to appoint judges whose rulings will impact all of us - five year old the yet-to-be-conceived as well - for decades. This is why Mitch McConnell has worked so hard to deny Obama the ability to appoint a new justice. The right recognizes that they can effectively block (and maybe even undo) any progressive movement for decades if they can maintain control of the court.

If you truly value the long-game of progressive gains, the only choice this year is pulling the lever for the candidate who is going to appoint left leaning justices. Systemic racism, women's rights, marriage equality, Campaign finance reform, health care, abortion rights and a whole other bevy of issues depend on a Supreme Court that leans left.

In the primaries, vote your conscience. In the general, vote the Supreme Court. Vote Clinton.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:05 AM on September 17, 2016 [59 favorites]

The Princeton Election Consortium has been mentioned on these threads before. I had just been keeping an eye on the maps and the probabilities, but today there is a good write-up on why the gaps have closed and what it all might mean. very germane to the discussion here.
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:07 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

When Trump is elected, Americans will finally view their country in the same way that the rest of the world does.
posted by blue_beetle at 10:08 AM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

Ruth Bader Ginsburg is 83
Anthony Kennedy is 79
Stephen Breyer is 77
Clarence Thomas is 67
Samuel Alito is 66
John Roberts is 61
Sonia Sotomayor is also 61
Elena Kagan is 56

Trump delenda est.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:09 AM on September 17, 2016 [16 favorites]

Based on having lived through the last 25 years I can't imagine how the Clintons could be anything but secretive and paranoid. Live under a microscope manned by people who want you dead or in jail for a quarter-century and see how open and trusting you are.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:12 AM on September 17, 2016 [108 favorites]

And in the Eerily Prescient department, I've just happened upon this Oscar Wilde quote: “It is personalities, not principles, that move the age.”

I weep.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 10:12 AM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

Enthusiasm might also be lacking because the Clinton campaign doesn't have an effective way to combat the Trump media domination.

And I think she knows it, which is why we're seeing this weird bank-shot stuff like "basket of deplorables." She knows any positive stories her campaign tries to put out there are going to be drowned out by cries of EMAILS and PNEUMONIA and how long it's been since her last press conference and, so why not just force them to talk about another shiny object for a while.

"Antibiotics can take care of pneumonia. What's the cure for an unhealthy penchant for privacy that repeatedly creates unnecessary problems?"

Obviously there is none, but that penchant for privacy is the direct result of decades of being scrutinized and attacked for just being a Clinton. Axelrod's diagnosis is accurate, but it's a bit unfair to talk about the symptoms and the cure without considering the etiology.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:14 AM on September 17, 2016 [19 favorites]

Hamilton, obvs

Thank you. Not obvious is one has not seen the play.

(and at those prices.....)

Mind you, I did think the whole Les Deplorables thing was apretty remarkable Clinton own goal, far more interesting than the Trump drops birthing article above the fold on today's Financial Times. Now they have something to rally around. Stronger Together just doesn't fire the belly. They'd best come up with something stirring, and fast.
posted by IndigoJones at 10:16 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

obvious only because MeFites let no Hamilton reference opportunity pass unreferenced in election threads!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:18 AM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Now they have something to rally around.

The idea that the right wing didn't have something to rally around when running against Hillary Clinton is... novel.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:18 AM on September 17, 2016 [16 favorites]

You buy a new house and find people looking through your windows so you put up curtains. Now they come into your lawn and peek through the cracks so you put up a fence. They stand by your fence with binoculars so you put up a tall hedge. They start checking when you come and go from your driveway so you start ordering delivery food. Who is the one with the paranoia problem exactly?
posted by JakeEXTREME at 10:19 AM on September 17, 2016 [26 favorites]

Rallying around the fact that you're proud to be racist, homophobic and religiously intolerant is also an interesting tactic if you want to gather new voters.
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:24 AM on September 17, 2016 [10 favorites]

Thank you. Not obvious is one has not seen the play.

Then it's time for this thread's reminder that you need not see Hamilton to enjoy Hamilton. The entire album can be streamed free on YouTube (the first song is over here), streamed on Spotify, Apple Music, or the streaming provider of your choice, and purchased for download wherever fine music is sold. The show is more-or-less sung through, and so the album contains (with a few small exceptions) the entire show. Further enhance your experience with the lyrics and the Genius annotations, which add context and insights to the text, and then use the various MeFi posts as a gateway to the many wonders the fandom has to offer.
posted by zachlipton at 10:26 AM on September 17, 2016 [46 favorites]

Dropping back in to say that after reading rorgy's wonderful and well-timed comment however many threads ago, I checked the fuck out of the election for sanity reasons. I think this was a wise decision, especially since at the time I said to myself, "things will go badly for Clinton for a week or two, and then there will be terrifying polls that reflect that, and then inevitably Trump will self-destruct again. The armies on both sides have not changed. It will be ok."

And so far that seems to have been fairly predictive.

So thank you, rorgy, for saving my sanity. I miss all you people, and I miss the election threads, but I miss sanity more.

I so hope I can come back soon.

(I'm still donating money every month and doing phone calls when I can; I've just put blinders on.)
posted by schadenfrau at 10:26 AM on September 17, 2016 [17 favorites]

I'm voting for Clinton on the merits. She's competent and really really wants the job. I don't have to love her to admit she might be a great president.
A vote for Trymp is REALLY a vote for Pence. Trump is everyone's horrible ex-husband. Pence is everyone's abusive uncle.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 10:26 AM on September 17, 2016 [17 favorites]

This is true and still doesn't mean I think those characteristics are a great fit for a healthy candidacy or presidency.

This is essentially saying that the Republicans get to veto Democratic nominees for the Presidency.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:26 AM on September 17, 2016 [19 favorites]

I actually don't see a whole lot of evidence that the Clintons are any more secretive than any other politicians that have been in public service for a long time. They've had people out to get then, literally out to put them in jail, for decades, but chose to stay in public service. That's not being secretive and insular.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:30 AM on September 17, 2016 [33 favorites]

Trump is back to manic sexist mode. Two tweets within a minute of each other.

Wacky @NYTimesDowd, who hardly knows me, makes up things that I never said for her boring interviews and column. A neurotic dope!

Crazy Maureen Dowd, the wacky columnist for the failing @nytimes, pretends she knows me well--wrong!
posted by chris24 at 10:32 AM on September 17, 2016

Is it any wonder enthusiasm is "lacking"?

Enthusiasm may be lacking because Hillary Clinton has been the subject of a vicious smear campaign for 25 years.
posted by adam hominem at 10:34 AM on September 17, 2016 [44 favorites]

FYI, both tweets were from Twitter for iPhone. I almost think he was dictating one tweet and two assistants on two phones tweeted different versions of it.
posted by chris24 at 10:35 AM on September 17, 2016 [18 favorites]

When Trump is elected, Americans will finally view their country in the same way that the rest of the world does.

Yeah some of the recent conversations I've been a part of up here in my part of Canada have been pretty durn negative and well beyond what might be consider stereo-typical anti-Americanism. It's taken on a decided air of being just fed-up with it all and a whole bunch of lying in the beds that people make sentiment. Then there is usually some sort of sighing type commentary about how they would care so much and be frustrated about it if there wasn't such a chance that parts of the rest of the world weren't likely to be taken down in the nuclear flames with them.

And holy heck I haven't heard so much talk about the threat of nuclear flames since the early 1990s. People I've talked to, especially people old enough to have lived through more acute nuclear fear time are right pissed at having it added back into the more conscious worry bin.

My expectation is that Trump getting elected is going to create a deluge of anti-American anger the likes of which haven't been seen for some time or I dunno, ever. I thought Bush made it bad but my feeling is that Trump would make it seem like little league. This isn't good for anyone no matter where they live.

Plus with the way that Trump is he's likely to respond to any expression of world anger with a bunch of mighty 'fuck you, Trump America fuck yeah, bullshit threats and actions' and create a vicious cycle of horribleness that just chills me to imagine.
posted by Jalliah at 10:36 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Mary Beard, "Why Donald Trump really IS like Julius Caesar," or

TRVMP
posted by MonkeyToes at 10:37 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

My favorite Pence hot take
posted by pxe2000 at 10:37 AM on September 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

FYI, both tweets were from Twitter for iPhone. I almost think he was dictating one tweet and two assistants on on two phones tweeted different versions of it.

Merediths!
posted by zachlipton at 10:38 AM on September 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

Voter enthusiasm might be reduced but voters know about the candidates and they hate Trump. Granted they dislike Clinton but by a smaller amount.

Exactly.

Fundamentally, it's just difficult for me to see how a country that elected Barack Obama twice is going to turn around and vote for Donald Trump -- whose entire political raison d'être is being the voice of the anti-Obamaists.

And I don't mean that in the sensibility-ruffled white moderate sense of "How could such a rude and nasty person POSSIBLY be the GOP nominee", but in the sense of "I don't see how the math adds up."

We all know that there is a large minority of Americans (mainly white, it goes without saying) who believe that a President who is not white and male is automatically unfit to lead, unless that person fully accepts the doctrine of white male supremacy and is willing to be the figurehead for the movement (see: Palin, Sarah and Keyes, Alan). And there are a bunch more people who don't particularly like those views but are willing to be bedfellows with them if it means they can get their policy (theocracy / deregulation of everything / lower taxes) enacted. This coalition of deplorables and their hangers-on detested and feared Barack Obama. But Obama won in '08, and he confirmed that his victory wasn't a post-Bush fluke by his smaller but still substantial 2012 victory.

I don't see what Trump is doing or saying that would convert Obama '08 & '12 voters into Trump voters, or would motivate them to stay home; and I don't see any other headwinds for him in the other fundamentals -- the economy is better than it was in '12; Obama's favorability ratings are up; Clinton's ground game is by all accounts superb; and most of all, the electorate gets browner every day.

Looking at the poll trend lines, I see a pretty stable race at about Clinton +3 or +4, and that's not taking into account the very real advantages she has in terms of GOTV and, yes, party unity. (Can you even imagine the firestorm if Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi bolted from the mics at the mention of their party's nominee, the way the Republican leadership does when people ask about Trump's latest wordvomit?)

My personal panic index was at JCPL-equivalent heights around early June, when Brexit was happening and #NeverTrump was failing and it looked like Trump might actually be able to pivot into being the Maverick Billionaire with a Heart of Gold, sweeping through the Rust Belt to victory.

Now that we're into the real swing of things, it simply doesn't look like that's happening. Trump is now only where he was at the end of the primaries; I really do think that this is his ceiling. If he were more disciplined or if he were more interested in the un-fun parts of running a campaign, the fundraising and the volunteer coordination and the outreach (actual outreach, I mean, not five-hour junkets to Flint or Mexico City) -- yeah, I'd be shitting myself a lot. If he had spent the summer going all-out at WI/PA/OH/FL instead of wasting his time doing god knows what in random safe states, he could be winning for sure.

Of course nothing is in the bag. That's in the nature of, you know, the future's not having been written yet. But we don't have to be panicking. Really, we don't. Instead, we have to work hard, which is just one more thing about which Donald Trump knows nothing.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:42 AM on September 17, 2016 [28 favorites]

Merediths!

Meres Dith.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:42 AM on September 17, 2016 [42 favorites]

I never imagined myself saying anything good about Trump, but he seems to brilliantly understand how the media works.

Trump has been doing this for over three decades, and he doesn't just understand the media, he is the media. Let that sink in, and no one should be surprised that Clinton is struggling to pull comfortably ahead no matter how mainstream her positions are.
posted by Beholder at 10:44 AM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm tired of the insularity, secrecy, and paranoia that comes with the Clintons.

I think you are going to have to elaborate on that because it seems the opposite is true.

The reason you know about Bill Clinton's business relationships is because they voluntarily released their income tax records -- for over 30 years.

The reason you know about Hillary's speaking fees is because she voluntarily released her income tax records -- for over 30 years.

The reason you know about the Clinton Foundation donors is because they voluntarily released a list of all donors.

The reason you know about her emails is because she voluntarily turned them over to the State Department archives (unlike her predecessors Powell and Rice and the entire Bush administration).

The reason you know about Clinton's hypothyroidism, blood thinners and concussion is because she voluntarily released her medical records.

So if you think secrecy is the problem, you seem to have it exactly backwards. It is the transparency that Clinton's opponents have exploited while overlooking the actual secrecy of Trump. Not only has her transparency been exploited but it ironically has led to her being accused of being crooked because of secrecy.
posted by JackFlash at 10:45 AM on September 17, 2016 [225 favorites]

The great thing Bernie did was focus on issues, issues, issues. Particularly the issues people actually care about.

This is why the Democratic campaign is so frustrating, that they refused to learn from the success of the Sanders campaign in the primaries. i'm not re-litigating anything, i'm just praying that they remember what a really large part of their constituency cares about.

The more we talk about people and not policy, the dumber we all get.
posted by eustatic at 10:46 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

Meres Dith

Which makes Trump a Dith Lord. Darth Hater.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:47 AM on September 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

I never imagined myself saying anything good about Trump, but he seems to brilliantly understand how the media works.

Trump has been doing this for over three decades, and he doesn't just understand the media, he is the media. Let that sink in.

Trump is a purely intuitive creature. He knows how to manipulate and communicate with people, but doesn't know how he knows. He never had to look within himself. He always had money and power. He's a perfect media organism.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:47 AM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

One also might consider how things like Whitewater, Vince Foster's suicide, Benghazi, and more have all been investigated to death by people who absolutely hate the Clintons and they came up with nothing.

Even the issue with the emails thing came with a non-binding editorial by a lifelong Republican Clinton-hater who still had to admit there was nothing to prosecute.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:48 AM on September 17, 2016 [34 favorites]

Darth Hater

Brilliant. Someone fax this over to the Clinton social media team for expedited memeification.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:49 AM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

Do you have to sign up in advance to volunteer? My work schedule is fairly crazy right now, so whenever I go to sign up for something, I have no idea if I'm going to be able to commit, so I don't. But there are times when I could totally volunteer; I just don't always know about them in advance. Can I just like, show up at the Hillary campaign office and ask to be put to work?
posted by Weeping_angel at 10:49 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

On the trail, Clinton talks issues constantly, but that's not what the media covers. This perception that she doesn't talk issues is an artifact of the way the press covers the horse race.
posted by chrchr at 10:53 AM on September 17, 2016 [60 favorites]

It's rich calling the Clintons secretive and insular when the person running against Hillary refuses any aspect of transparency whatsoever.

No tax returns, no disclosure of financial interests, NDAs present on virtually every employee,etc

The Clintons are paragons of transparency in comparison and they really aren't any more secretive than standard politicians.

Sanders for instance wasn't exactly transparent about some of his taxes.
posted by vuron at 10:55 AM on September 17, 2016 [53 favorites]

This is sort of trivial yet intriguingly Trumpian in its redolence of fecal matter: apparently the day he supposedly had his colonoscopy he was tweeting and meeting people all day long, in a manner that suggests he is perhaps lying about that procedure too.

He may have literally lied out his ass.
posted by spitbull at 10:57 AM on September 17, 2016 [10 favorites]

For those of us trying to laugh through the tears, Calvin Trillin does a Shouts & Murmurs for The New Yorker, A Trumpian Candidate on Trump’s Corset
posted by morganw at 10:58 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

The press corps is punishing Clinton for not having daily press conferences. They want access and Hillary shows no interest in playing the normal game.

They are willing to give Trump free airtime and a pass on bad behavior because he promises access and frankly he is easy to cover.

The press corp is biased against Clinton but it is primarily because they are lazy but self important assholes with virtually no ability to practice self reflection. This can be seen every white house correspondence dinner where the press frowns at any condemnation of their incompetence and incestuous behavior in regards to people if power.
posted by vuron at 11:03 AM on September 17, 2016 [11 favorites]

I know MetaFilter is strongly critical of Stein voters, but there is no other way for progressives to pull the Democratic Party to the left other than refusing to vote for hawkish centre-right nominees beholden to Wall Street. Cornel West is not an idiot.

Boiling down Clinton to "hawkish centre-right beholden to Wall Street" is pretty selective.

And Cornel West is an idiot if he believes there is no other way.

I was a Sanders primary voter and supporter. I want a more progressive Democratic party because I want a more progressive society. The primaries are a place to move the party. The fact that it didn't work as well as some of us might have liked this time doesn't change that (though it came close enough even considering Clinton's connectedness and qualification that it should be producing the opposite of a sense of fatalism). The party can be moved by citizen lobbying. It can be moved by other methods of internal conversation. It's hard to move, because there are a lot of other people involved and some of them aren't going to agree with you, but it can be done.

Defecting in the general is not a good strategy for moving the party. It makes center-right votes more valuable (and if the country's views are close to normally distributed, there's more of those than anything left of center-left). Deciphering any kind of "message" through a system that is designed to select candidates is worse than trying to read smoke signals across state lines. And it's a unqualifiedly terrible strategy for moving society as a whole in a progressive direction, which is the real goal.

I get there's a sense of powerlessness but that sense is lying to you to the extent it whispers opting out is the best response to not getting what you wanted, that protest votes in our system are a good idea. Voting Green wouldn't be a good idea even if they actually did good policy along with purer values, which, if Stein is any indication, they don't.

If you liked Sanders in the primary, listen to what he's saying now: show up for Clinton in November, and then organize and continue to try to exert influence.
posted by wildblueyonder at 11:05 AM on September 17, 2016 [39 favorites]

This is essentially saying that the Republicans get to veto Democratic nominees for the Presidency.

It is, and it's not fair, but it's a thing people think. One way I've heard it expressed is that there's always drama (or mishegas) with the Clintons. And even though I know, intellectually, that there actually has been a conspiracy to pin one thing or another on the Clintons for approximately my entire life, more than a dozen investigations and -gates, many of them utterly without merit, it's something you start to internalize. It sinks in that the news throughout most of my life has frequently involved Bill or Hillary being investigated for something, even when I know full well that investigation involves generations of blood-thirsty partisans who would run over their own mothers if they could blame Hillary Clinton for it. Some of that also involves holding Bill's failings against Hillary, which I know perfectly well isn't remotely fair or appropriate, yet I still find myself wanting to do it.

And in that mindset, it's hard to not question everything she does. Why take foreign money for the Foundation? (Because the Foundation helps fight HIV/AIDS and Malaria around the world, among other things.) Why the email server? (Because the NSA blew her off when she asked for something like the system Obama was using, and her predecessor used an AOL account, among other reasons.) Why not tell us she was sick before the 9/11 memorial incident? (Because people were already making up crazy rumors abut her health.) And I know that these are largely stupid questions to be asking. And yet I ask them, because I've been conditioned to by decades of investigations. It's the classic pattern where I ask "why don't you stop hitting yourself?" as if there was ever something she could do to make it stop.

As JackFlash ably points out above, the Clintons have gone out of their way to be transparent in many areas, as opposed to a certain other candidate who believes it's so unfair everyone wants to get all in his business (except when he's using his candidacy to promote one of his businesses). I know all that, intellectually. And I'm absolutely with her and will vote for her and donate and make calls and make unnaturally high pitched noises when she quotes Hamilton and everything else. But when it comes to truthiness, deep in the gut, I can't help but think about all the Clinton drama sometimes; I think "my entire life it's been one thing or another with these people." And I know that means the Republicans have won.
posted by zachlipton at 11:06 AM on September 17, 2016 [49 favorites]

This is sort of trivial yet intriguingly Trumpian in its redolence of fecal matter: apparently the day he supposedly had his colonoscopy he was tweeting and meeting people all day long, in a manner that suggests he is perhaps lying about that procedure too.

I think that's grasping at straws tbh. A colonoscopy takes about half an hour and doesn't need a sedative (although it frequently comes with one). No tweet between 9:13am and 11:11am. 9:30 colonoscopy. Finished by 10:00. Recovered from sedative by 10:30. Met Ms. Martinez at 11:11am.
posted by Francis at 11:11 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think "my entire life it's been one thing or another with these people." And I know that means the Republicans have won.

Be strong. Don't give in to the bullies. Letting them win only emboldens them for continued and even worse behavior.
posted by JackFlash at 11:15 AM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

grasping at straws tbh.

Or some sort of hollow, flexible plastic tube anyway.
posted by spitbull at 11:22 AM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm sure the answer is yes, but did you call to check on the hold-up?

I can do that Monday, but I cannot present myself in my old county for an election board as I am over 1200 miles away from my previous residence in the US. I'm in another country, hence voting absentee!
posted by Kitteh at 11:25 AM on September 17, 2016

Taking a break from canvassing while the football game is on. Today's report: for all the talk about Millennials, it's still the case that every Bernie or Bust holdout I've run into has been a white guy in his 50s.

Anyway, in general it's been a good day. It's been slow going because so many people are signing up to vote by mail.

Do you have to sign up in advance to volunteer? My work schedule is fairly crazy right now, so whenever I go to sign up for something, I have no idea if I'm going to be able to commit, so I don't. But there are times when I could totally volunteer; I just don't always know about them in advance. Can I just like, show up at the Hillary campaign office and ask to be put to work?

It's totally fine to show up for an organized event even if you haven't RSVPed. It's also fine to RSVP "maybe," although my experience is that maybes almost never show. Otherwise, I would call first, so they have time to print out a walk packet and make sure that there's someone around to train you. But it's also fine to show up and ask if they have anything for you to do. Just don't get offended if the answer is "not right now."
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:27 AM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

Matt Taibbi: Stop Whining About "False Balance"
posted by Trochanter at 11:35 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump is back to manic sexist mode. Two tweets within a minute of each other.

Wacky @NYTimesDowd, who hardly knows me, makes up things that I never said for her boring interviews and column. A neurotic dope!

Crazy Maureen Dowd, the wacky columnist for the failing @nytimes, pretends she knows me well--wrong!

That can't possibly be Trump, Trump doesn't hurl personal insults!
posted by Talez at 11:36 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Last night I had a friend go on an anti-Trump/media tirade and then immediately follow it up with, "too bad Clinton is so secretive." My expression said ??? so he immediately followed it up with "like her heat stroke or whatever." I replied it can't be so secret if I know it actually wasn't heat stroke, so he moved on to "like Whitewater". You complain about the media being too Trumpian and yet you relitigate Whitewater which you are too young to even remember? You are exactly what Trump wants!
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:41 AM on September 17, 2016 [36 favorites]

While Secretary Clinton might prefer otherwise (and rightly so, IMHO), the fact of the matter is that we know far more about this candidate, her policies, her behavioral patterns under various circumstances (some of which were extremely stressful) and even her private life than any other candidate in history. That she did not disclose a bacterial pneumonia diagnosis is understandable in this political climate. Remember her statements in the Humans of New York piece in the last thread (I think it was that one)? Statements dealing with her experience being one of two women taking the LSAT. Those sorts of experiences scar you. Little wonder that she chose to try to power through a 9/11 ceremony and keep the focus on it, rather than cancel her appearance and become the story. It was unfortunate that she did need to leave early, but it was always a calculated risk to take this path. Given her life experience, it was understandable that she would take that risk. What would the health narrative be if she'd announced that she would be leaving the trail for recuperative purposes?

A genuine question: What would people like to know about Secretary Clinton that we don't already know ourselves or can find out through research? I speak here of reasonable things one might need to know about a candidate.

A lot of what is being stated which causes people to distrust her seems to be strawwomen. "Always changing positions," for one. Over thirty years, so have I, so I have no problem with the particular positions she has changed. "Secretive." Again, not particularly true as regards the things that matter. The research is out there. Never has one candidate been so thoroughly investigated by the opposition party and she emerged without that opposition being able to find reasonable charges against her. By this point, I'd think twice before revealing information, especially given her formative experiences.

In the end, we all have a choice to make when we vote. We have four candidates with varying positions on all matters from which to choose. What people need to decide, if none of the candidates exactly meet their list of qualifications, is whether they can make a compromise and accept any of the candidates. If so, then they're in business. If not, they might want to examine the candidates from the standpoint of candidates who would absolutely not be acceptable to them. If there is one such candidateor more than one, then people will have to take up the "lesser of evils" possibility and try to find a candidate they can at least accept as a president.

The one thing that would be very sad to see is people refusing to vote in this particular election because no platform seems to precisely meet their needs. We all have to accept that most of us will rarely get exactly what we want in a candidate or platform. That is a reality in a republic. By winnowing the candidates in the primaries, we achieve a workable number of names on the ballot which assures us of a wide range of political beliefs from which to choose. I can't imagine the situation we would be in without the primaries. Just can't do it. That would lead to the situation in which someone could win the popular vote with a small percentage of the vote overall, and no one achieving 270 electoral votes.

I'll let others hash out the luxury of protest votes in swing states as most here are better at it than I, but I will say that this particular election is a referendum on what this country chooses to be. Choose wisely when you vote; your vote is terribly precious this year. Every year, really, but rarely are the stakes so well deliniated or so high. /soapbox :)
posted by Silverstone at 11:41 AM on September 17, 2016 [45 favorites]

If you're wondering why Trump is going off on Dowd:

Dowd says Trump told her violence at his rallies added a "frisson of excitement."

On CNN this morning. Video in link.
posted by chris24 at 11:44 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

My mom just stopped by and saw my yard sign and was like, ugh, Clinton so I had to talk to her about it briefly. She's a lifelong R-voting libertarian who's been increasingly fed up with the republican drift towards Christo-fascism, so she's never going to be rah rah about a democrat ever ever ever and I already knew she hates Trump. I said, well, we have two options and one of them wants to start a nuclear war so I'd like to try and make sure that doesn't happen. She reluctantly agreed that that's probably what it comes down to but "I just don't trust her." *sigh* It really is hard to talk to people about this because in effect what you have to say is, "You've been a dupe for the last 25 years." No one wants to hear that. It's a lot easier to just be like "just vote for the lesser of two evils" and not defend her in a positive way because it's just so much to slog through and it runs so deep. And I'll be the first to admit that I used to feel the same way and I had to do a lot of reading before I came around. This is not a two minute conversation, it's an ongoing dialogue and it asks a lot of the person you're talking to as far as putting prejudices and ego aside and entertaining the notion that they may have been too credulous in the past and jumped to conclusions based on propaganda and not facts.

Anyway, my mom just sort of hinting that she may pull a D lever at all is a pretty big step just as it is so I left the full Clinton litigation be for the time being.

In other news, I'm signed up to phone bank tomorrow night.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:46 AM on September 17, 2016 [50 favorites]

Matt Taibbi: Stop Whining About "False Balance"

Oh look it's another straight white male liberal reporter whining that journalism is hard
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:47 AM on September 17, 2016 [43 favorites]

Look, a lot of people don't trust Clinton, but ask them if they trust her not to start a nuclear war.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:48 AM on September 17, 2016 [11 favorites]

Imagining Trump using the word 'frisson' is causing my brain to shudder.
posted by Killick at 11:51 AM on September 17, 2016 [35 favorites]

Given that she is talking only about TV news, I don't see any self-awareness at all.

Given that she probably understands that TV news has a far larger viewership and influence than do newspapers, it's a pretty appropriate plea, self awareness notwithstanding.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:52 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Imagining Trump using the word 'frisson' is causing my brain to shudder.

Yeah, I'm assuming that phrasing is a Dowd embellishment.
posted by chris24 at 11:52 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

Matt Taibbi seems to believe in sort of an efficient markets theory of the press, where if a story exists, it must be because the public demanded it. I could use that same logic to work backwards from the fact that he's so far up his own ass to prove that there was something important up there.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:53 AM on September 17, 2016 [13 favorites]

Voting Green wouldn't be a good idea even if they actually did good policy along with purer values, which, if Stein is any indication, they don't.

Just wanted to really, really emphasize this. Our two major political parties have *inertia*. They have *power*. Money flows through them. I've talked about this before, but it's true: they're not going anywhere.

On the right-wing side, we have now spent years watching the Tea Party do this one thing right: instead of forming a new party, they organized inside the existing GOP and took it over. From a purely strategic standpoint, this was correct. Their goals are horrible and I wish them all a fiery demise, but they did this correctly.

On the left, Bernie Sanders is an independent, but he joined up long enough to run for President within the machinery of the Democratic Party. This was the correct strategy, and it worked out pretty well for him. He got heard in a way that Independents *don't*. Many of his ideas made it into the discussion that would not have otherwise. He made a mark because he did this *correctly*.

In both cases, people who really wanted to bring about change understood that the only way to do that is to try to grab the wheel, not reinvent it. They agitated during primaries and fell in line in the general, because that is the way our system actually *works*. People who say otherwise are foolish, lying or both.

The Green Party is for people who would rather feel good about themselves than make a difference. I'm not just basing that on Jill Stein's horrible positions - although every quote from her makes me prefer a dead gorilla - but from their lack of local efforts. Politics is hard. Politics is messy. Politics is about showing up. They're not interested in that. Don't vote for them. Learn from success stories, not failures.

(And don't kid yourself: Bernie is a success story. It doesn't matter that he lost a battle, he got a national platform to talk about his ideas instead of being confined to a state or two.)

Matt Taibbi

Matt Taibbi is a wonderful argument for UBI, because I would literally prefer he be paid to stay home and shut up.
posted by mordax at 11:54 AM on September 17, 2016 [71 favorites]

I think the enthusiasm gap may be as much fear as anything else.

I am totally pro-Clinton. She is incredible -- and every time I think "Madam President" (or, "Mrs. President"?), I start smiling.

But. The assholes on my Facebook feed. The Bernie supporters, in particular, have been fantastic at shutting down everything whenever any of us post pro-Clinton stuff. (I think there's more support for Stein among my male friends than my female ones. I think there's a lot of liberal men who have talked themselves into believing they're not being misogynistic because they're totally supporting another female candidate.) It's dick-ish, and the sort of shit that men have been allowed to do for centuries.

So I'm voting Clinton. And I'm hoping to seek out the local campaign once I get back from a business trip. But I'm having a hard time thinking of ways to voice my support.

(Incidentally: I live in a state that's red enough not to have a Clinton HQ. Where do you all seek out volunteer opportunities?)
posted by steady-state strawberry at 11:55 AM on September 17, 2016 [25 favorites]

Killick and Chris24 beat me to it. I highly doubt that DJT used that word, since I've never heard it said out loud (I realized this upon trying to mentally pronounce it).

As far as I know DJT is functionally illiterate -- I mean, I'm reasonably certain he does know how to read basic English but I don't think he reads much of the sort of material that might use a word like 'frisson'.

So that's a typically stupid Dowd misstep. It pissed off Trump though, apparently, so I guess I don't care too much.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:55 AM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh look it's another straight white male liberal reporter whining that journalism is hard

That's not what Taibbi is saying AT ALL. He's saying that the public isn't willing to consume the real hard journalism that has been done about all sorts of topics for so long that newsrooms are less and less willing to spend the real dollars to do it on any sort of regular basis. And even when it is done, the public generally consumes the real reporting through secondary sources who are writing fluff piece summaries of the real reporting.

Taibbi is saying this as someone who has done some really serious reporting (oddly, for Rolling Stone, not NYT or WaPo) and who has managed to make enough waves with his reporting that it's affected the tenor and actuality of reality.

Taibbi isn't saying that journalism is hard. That's the opposite of what he's saying.
posted by hippybear at 11:56 AM on September 17, 2016 [24 favorites]

I think there's a lot of liberal men who have talked themselves into believing they're not being misogynistic because they're totally supporting another female candidate.

One that can't possibly win, but see, they're not to blame!
posted by bongo_x at 12:07 PM on September 17, 2016 [14 favorites]

Haha Taibbi's defense of the pundits is so laughable.

"It's your fault that we submit lazy shitty false equivalence stories without the hint of fact checking because you guys seem to prefer clickbait anyway."

People still sit down and read long form journalism but yeah if you are going to offer completely vacuous puff pieces might as well just click on the buzzfeed article instead.
posted by vuron at 12:07 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

He's saying that the public isn't willing to consume the real hard journalism that has been done about all sorts of topics for so long that newsrooms are less and less willing to spend the real dollars to do it on any sort of regular basis. And even when it is done, the public generally consumes the real reporting through secondary sources who are writing fluff piece summaries of the real reporting.

All right, I'm being unfair, but I'm not *whining*, and I wanted to punch him. Seriously, does he not appreciate that his guys will be up against the wall *first*?

Anyway, the market's there, even in the our current world of clickbait headlines. The Daily Show set a pretty great example, and led to some fascinating spinoffs. Reporting the truth - even unflattering truth - can be done in a manner that courts us poor, fickle, whining viewers. John Oliver's doing some pretty great stuff lately in particular.

There are solutions besides 'I give up and it's your fault anyway, crybabies.'
posted by mordax at 12:07 PM on September 17, 2016 [10 favorites]

Ok, I'm so sick of seeing people (elsewhere) going on about how corrupt Clinton is and how many scandals she's had, etc. Is there a handy single link to refute this idea? To show how little There there is there? Of course, the same people just write off any vaguely pro-Clinton piece as "biased." But still, I feel the need to do SOMETHING to spread truth.
posted by threeturtles at 12:09 PM on September 17, 2016

That's not what Taibbi is saying AT ALL. He's saying that the public isn't willing to consume the real hard journalism that has been done about all sorts of topics for so long that newsrooms are less and less willing to spend the real dollars to do it on any sort of regular basis.

I know. And I've read and respected Taibbi's work for a long time. But of course people are going to want to read fluffy supermarket magazine bullshit -- that's no excuse for actual journalists to throw up their hands and give the people the Horse Race Coverage They Want.

It's frustrating because I know he knows this. I don't understand why he's defending the media coverage of this race which, with some shining exceptions (the Washington Post comes to mind) has been really, really awful, particularly from well-off straight white journalists who are going to be just fine under a Trump administration as long as they toe the line.

I appreciate that dead tree media isn't the money machine it was before the Internet but if nationally recognized journalists working for major media outlets are worried about their job security because the sheeple don't care for hard news -- I mean, come on. That's ridiculous.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:14 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

Jill Stein isn't a progressive. Look at her record as an elected official. What did she do about local progressive issues like affordable housing, the living wage and integration? Even on health care her record is one of charging rich people for Medical care, not free clinics.
posted by humanfont at 12:14 PM on September 17, 2016 [10 favorites]

From the Taibbi article:

"It's worth noting that the exploration of Trump's iniquities and unfitness for office in the last year has been truly awesome, both in terms of raw volume and vehemence of tone. Anyone who tries to argue that there's insufficiently vast documentation of Trump's insanity is either being willfully obtuse or not paying real attention to the news."

Bullshit. The depth, tenor and duration of coverage of Trump has paled in comparison to his issues. Nate Silver had a good tweetstorm yesterday that covered it. Basically, if a "mitt" is a unit of measurement of scandalousness, then Romney and Obama are probably one mitt candidates. Clinton is probably a 5 mitt candidate and covered thusly. But Trump is being covered like a 7 mitt candidate, but he's really a 50 mitt candidate. Despite covering him more than others, it's nowhere near the coverage necessary given his corruption and issues.
posted by chris24 at 12:16 PM on September 17, 2016 [39 favorites]

Imagining Trump using the word 'frisson' is causing my brain to shudder.

More plausibly: 'fuckton'.
posted by mazola at 12:17 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

(Incidentally: I live in a state that's red enough not to have a Clinton HQ. Where do you all seek out volunteer opportunities?)

Have you tried searching for nearby events on her website?
posted by peeedro at 12:17 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

The journalism industry is large and maybe it's less the fault of journalists themselves, the writers, and more the editors and the managers and the leadership who choose the lowest common denominator formats?
posted by Apocryphon at 12:18 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

Both journalists and Clinton's own camp (especially the internet/social media people) have been outplayed a lot in these last couple of weeks. (They had Pepe the cartoon frog on HillaryClinton.com home page for days and days, totally buying into the low-road nonsense and ruining any shot at a policy-and-grownups-based discussion all week.) It's disappointing: where did all those culture-savvy Obama internet people go, anyway?
posted by rokusan at 12:21 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

They had Pepe the cartoon frog on HillaryClinton.com home page for days and days, totally buying into the low-road nonsense and ruining any shot at a policy-and-grownups-based discussion all week.

What? Are you talking about this? How is that in any way buying into low-road nonsense? It's an attempt to explain an under-the-radar (to the olds, anyway) symbol that's energizing the opponent's base.

FFS, someone shouted out out "PEPE!" during Hillary's press conference. The fight about this has been brought to her.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:24 PM on September 17, 2016 [37 favorites]

I'm still trying to get over the picture from Flint the other day, is that from The Killing Joke or am I confusing it with The Dark Knight?
posted by bongo_x at 12:25 PM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

I know. And I've read and respected Taibbi's work for a long time. But of course people are going to want to read fluffy supermarket magazine bullshit -- that's no excuse for actual journalists to throw up their hands and give the people the Horse Race Coverage They Want.

And the whole thesis is a false dichotomy, anyway. It's hardly unusual to be a reader who clicks on listicles about the 100 worst movie villains, or what have you, and who also subscribes to (and reads) the WaPo or The Economist. Being interested in entertainment doesn't mean you're too fucking stupid to appreciate meaningful journalism, as Taibbi suggests.
posted by holborne at 12:27 PM on September 17, 2016 [15 favorites]

Journalists don't necessarily need to surrender to lowest common denominator false equivalence puff pieces, they choose to operate under that regime.

Yes journalism is taking a beating but still it's hard to have sympathy when the response to economic challenges is turning your product into garbage.

But mortgages make cowards of us all.
posted by vuron at 12:28 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm still trying to get over the picture from Flint the other day, is that from The Killing Joke or am I confusing it with The Dark Knight?

People have made a good point about the contrast
posted by Francis at 12:29 PM on September 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

Imagining Trump using the word 'frisson' is causing my brain to shudder.

Yeah, I'm assuming that phrasing is a Dowd embellishment.

He would never use a word like that in front of his supporters. Maybe that's why he's pissed at Dowd.
posted by Surely This at 12:32 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

The journalism industry is large and maybe it's less the fault of journalists themselves, the writers, and more the editors and the managers and the leadership targeting the lowest common denominator media?

If only there were a way to establish media outlets that were insulated from the profit motive or mandated to adhere to journalistic principles.

Not to say that the Toronto Star or the BBC are perfect by any means, but it's not a coincidence that a lot of the best coverage of this election has been done by journalists hailing from places where public and non-profit news organizations set the pace for reporting standards. NPR tries to do that here, but it looks like the member-donor model is not a whole lot better in terms of real journalistic independence.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:34 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

Thank you for the field reports, ArbitraryAndCapricious and others, I like hearing those.

I miss the general positivity I felt during and after the DNC - these threads have (with some exception) been a shelter from the maddening negativity swirling elsewhere in my infosphere. I'm really bummed that the popular narrative seems to be "who is worse," because I love how passionate and geeky Hillary comes across in conversations like the previously linked vox interview. I catch clips of her speeches surprisingly infrequently, but every time I'm reminded "oh yeah, I really like her, I'm voting for this (and not just against that)". It drives me crazy to have conversations with close friends who will say things like "I read her website and like her policies, but her campaign tweets condescending stuff and I just don't like her and can't stand the sound of her voice when she gives speeches" Said friend is introspective enough to recognize that "vocal tone" is no reason to disqualify a candidate and will be voting for her, but it makes me sad that this is the (simplified) reaction of an otherwise liberal, well-travelled, and well-read individual.

Also, well said steady-state strawberry - let us know if you find a way to make optimism cool again.

also first post wooo, hi everyone
posted by apeship at 12:36 PM on September 17, 2016 [48 favorites]

Vice News reporter arrested at a Trump event in Houston.

-> @AlxThomp, @ViceNews politics and policy editor, arrested "while inquiring about press access:"
posted by chris24 at 12:36 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Taibbi has half a point. Do chewy meaty detailed journalism, and at best right now you'll have it screencapped into Twitter, dumped into Facebook, paraphrased as a Vox 'splainer, converted into GIFs or a video for Buzzfeed, and otherwise recapitulated fifteen different A-B testing ways with a teeny tiny (via) link. At worst, you're competing against Sidebar of Shame stories or garbage SEO clickbait fake news for the Facebook headline topics.

However, I think Brian Beutler makes a more valid point that high-end media outlets have failed in their basic duty to tell the public what they've seen.
posted by holgate at 12:37 PM on September 17, 2016 [16 favorites]

Is there a handy single link to refute this idea

I asked about this in another thread - would love a single source for refuting talking points against Clinton, just a quick place to refer to when I see "corrupt!" or "emails!" or "her health!" or "she's a conservative warhawk" types of garbage posts on facebook.

On that note - I understand why back-and-forth over Jill Stein and Clinton-vs-ThirdParty stuff gets deleted, and appreciate the moderation, but must admit I'm always a bit disappointed when it happens...I get that a lot of folks here get all "ugh not this again" but I'm personally a sucker for busting out popcorn and seeing people get smacked down and piled on WWF-style, particularly exchanges between people who are really smart and people who *think* they are really smart.

Call it a guilty pleasure, but for whatever reason I absorb a ton of talking points that way so if anyone wants to point me to places where these exchanges are still going on instead of getting modded out (r/hillaryclinton is pretty heavily moderated for example), I'd click and bookmark that link so damn fast.
posted by windbox at 12:37 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

I don't understand how anyone thinks Trump will win Pennsylvania or Ohio.

Clinton's ground game is at least as good as Obama's. This week the campaign is sending 10 busloads full of New Yorkers to canvas on Saturday and Sunday - that's not counting New Yorkers I know who are driving to Easton, PA, where they're sending people out all day to long to canvas if you just show up at the Dem headquarters. This is going to go on until election day and Trump has NO ground game as far as anyone knows.

In Ohio, the governor (Kasich) hates Trump, so it's not likely there will be much help forthcoming.

I wouldn't believe Trump was going to win those states unless he was up by 10.
posted by maggiemaggie at 12:42 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Can folks please stop linking to tweets that then require further clicks to get to the article or news item. As in this example. It is quite annoying.
posted by humanfont at 12:44 PM on September 17, 2016 [11 favorites]

From Taibbi's article:

Under the rules of this reality series which media consumers turn into a gigantic hit every four years, collapsing in front of a cell-phone camera at a 9/11 memorial service is more important than a dozen position papers.

It just is. You proved it when you clicked on that video of the episode last weekend and didn't read a compare-and-contrast piece on, for instance, the candidates' banking policies.

Sure. That's always going to be the case and has always been the case. The fact that sensationalism sells is not a new phenomenon. But we've seen, time and time again, that people can and will care about boring stories about banking policies and the like if you make them interesting. Matt Taibbi, of all people, should know this, because he made a name for himself distilling tales about defaulting tranches of subprime mortgages and CDOs into something that made a lot of us look at Rolling Stone magazine for the first and only time. Planet Money got us to care about the life and death of Toxie, their very own toxic asset. John Oliver routinely gets millions of people to watch him talk, for 15-20 minutes at a time, about 401k fees and car loans and public defenders because he swears sometimes and puts up funny pictures while he's doing it, almost all based on other people's reporting. People actually do care.

Taibbi seems to conclude that us readers and voters get what we deserve because people click on entertaining stuff instead of eating our vegetables. Well, it turns out that lots of people happily eat vegetables as long as you dress them up in some sauce first. Yes, I know I'm asking for yet more from overworked newsrooms, but part of the job is providing information in ways people will consume it.

Taibbi also ignores the fact that the number and placement of stories is one of the primary signals journalists and editors use to signal what is important. When there's maybe two stories in a month on tax policy and 15 on the Clinton Foundation, that says something. And if you're telling me that writers can't find a way to make a story about how much each and every one of us will have to pay in taxes at least as engaging and relevant to our lives as a story about who met with the Secretary of State and when, then I think you aren't trying hard enough.
posted by zachlipton at 12:46 PM on September 17, 2016 [21 favorites]

maggiemaggie, as a PA resident, it's great to hear that all those resources are coming down to help here, but it's foolish to believe that Hillary's ground game advantage could overcome a 5-10% gap. If you don't believe me, take it from David Axelrod:

At the same time, Trump is going to have less of a turnout operation than any candidate in memory. Do you have a sense of how big a Clinton advantage that is?

It is 1 to 3 percent I would say, in some of these states. In most states that is not going to make a difference, but in battleground states … when you look at a state like North Carolina, that could be very meaningful.

Now, maybe Axelrod was assuming Trump would show up with a credible ground game, but still, 10% is a massive gap to assume you can overcome with outreach on election day.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:52 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Apochyphon makes a very good point here. Remember the failed CinC event on NBC where apparently Andy Lack set the tone and behavior of the forum, not Matt Lauer? You can make a fair case that Lauer didn't need to buy into the agenda to the degree he did, but apparently his position and income from NBC were more important to him than a fair and balanced forum.

I do believe that editors and publishers are determining a lot of the campaign coverage this year. They'll have to ask themselves when this is over just what their actual jobs are going to be worth if their clickbait strategy has allowed a Trump win by not telling the unvarnished truth about him. He's already said that he intends to rewrite the slander and libel laws. That could mean an assault on the First Amendment and significantly fewer journo jobs of all sorts. We'd only need the expected Trump Media Corp. then.

I'm not asking them to protect Secretary Clinton--that's not their job. I am asking them to be fair in both the amount of coverage and nature of coverage to both candidates.

If they managed equal time coverage to both candidates, I realize it would undermine Trump's GOTV efforts, since he's figured out that his advantage in this area is a) free to him and b) effective for his projected constituency. Fairness, then, would be a definite benefit to Secretary Clinton, one she's not seen in the general election. Not to mention, the right thing to do and the honorable thing to do.
posted by Silverstone at 12:54 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

Can folks please stop linking to tweets that then require further clicks to get to the article or news item.

The "arrested" was the article.
posted by chris24 at 12:55 PM on September 17, 2016

Taibbi seems to conclude that us readers and voters get what we deserve because people click on entertaining stuff instead of eating our vegetables.

Not from the quote, he doesn't. From the quote alone I might conclude more cautiously that there are structural factors that affect how the public receives and processes politics. To say that he thinks we deserve the status quo is reading a lot into that quote. Unless what you mean, by "seems", is from something else this person has said.
posted by polymodus at 12:57 PM on September 17, 2016

All this handwringing about reporting in this thread is really just a failure of the news media to do what everyone was required to do in AP high school classes, and then again in college: comparison/contrast. Want to see real comparison/contrast in action? Samantha Bee did this on Full Frontal's recent return from hiatus, and it's breathtaking.
posted by hippybear at 1:00 PM on September 17, 2016 [17 favorites]

maggiemaggie: In Ohio, the governor (Kasich) hates Trump, so it's not likely there will be much help forthcoming.

Kasich is held forth as a "moderate" Republican, but those of us in Ohio know better. He loathes Trump, and won't lift a finger to help him.
Rob Portman, who is running for reelection to the Senate, has endorsed Trump. That seems like a risky calculus to me, but it remains to be seen how much he actively campaigns for Trump, or how much "help" he would accept from Trump in his own campaign.
posted by Surely This at 1:02 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

As an example, take the New York Times story from the beginning of the month: Emails Raise New Questions About Clinton Foundation Ties to State Dept. It's about the time a Clinton Foundation staffer shot a State Department official an email asking if they could get diplomatic passports before accompanying Bill Clinton to Pyongyang for unofficial negotiations about American journalists held in North Korea. Then the State Department didn't give them diplomatic passports. Yeah, big scandal.

This is the kind of story the "false balance" argument is talking about. It was shopped around by Judicial Watch, a group originally founded by Larry Klayman to attack the Clintons. And it's an utterly uninteresting story about a not ridiculous request that wasn't fulfilled. Yet it got significant attention for a little bit as a "Clinton Scandal" story. How can you tell me that this nothing story about passports is inherently more interesting than a serious policy story about finance or taxes or health care or any of the dozens of policy areas worth discussing in this campaign?
posted by zachlipton at 1:03 PM on September 17, 2016 [54 favorites]

If only there were a way to establish media outlets that were insulated from the profit motive or mandated to adhere to journalistic principles.

Has anyone been following PBS NewsHour's coverage of the race?
posted by Apocryphon at 1:05 PM on September 17, 2016

but it's foolish to believe that Hillary's ground game advantage could overcome a 5-10% gap

Yeah, I was exaggerating for effect. I will be canvassing in both PA and Ohio, so I don't think they should be taken for granted. It's just when I see pundits say Trump could win those states I find it highly unlikely.
posted by maggiemaggie at 1:06 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

However, I think Brian Beutler makes a more valid point that high-end media outlets have failed in their basic duty to tell the public what they've seen.

Well said Mr. Beutler, your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter podcast.

(n.b. this is not an endorsement of this podcast, I literally am subscribing to it right now.)
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:14 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

A fucking music critic did more research waiting for his kid to come home from a playdate than most political/financial beat reporters do.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:17 PM on September 17, 2016 [39 favorites]

Trip report: the outskirts of Lancaster, PA.

Southeastern PA is, like Libya, a land of contrast. From where I live, you can go twenty minutes east and be in Philadelphia with all that that implies, or twenty minutes west and be at a Wal-Mart whose parking lot still has horse-and-buggy hitching posts. This is the hitching post side, with touristy stuff along all the highways leading into Amish country and deep deep deep deeeeeeeeeeeeeep rural territory.

Seen: A sign from Amish PAC encouraging America's plainest citizens to cast their votes for a flamboyant millionaire philanderer. They've also been getting hit by mail.

Seen: On the corner of US 30, where there once was a Turkey Hill c-store and then a Verizon Wireless store and now a boarded up building, an aspiring entrepreneur has set up Trump Central. T-shirts for sale, hats, stickers, a sign marked ♪ SINGING TRUMP ♫ that raises some very uncomfortable questions, and people standing next to a cardboard cutout of The Donald getting their picture taken with it.

Clap louder! Clap louder, everyone, or Tinkerrump won't live!
posted by delfin at 1:40 PM on September 17, 2016 [13 favorites]

I'm sick of this "if you don't support Hillary you're misogynist" bullshit. That is so patronizing. I think she's a corporate sell-out and a warhawk. I don't care what gender she is.

It is misogynist if you call Hillary "a corporate sell-out and a warhawk," but don't apply the same label to Obama for doing the same things. Anybody who does that really does care what gender Hillary is, regardless of how they doth protest otherwise.
posted by jonp72 at 1:45 PM on September 17, 2016 [44 favorites]

This was the tweet you linked. This was the tweet linked from the tweet you linked. This was the article linked from the tweet from the tweet you linked.

Maybe I'm the only one annoyed by this pattern of links to tweets which are just links to links. I think that unless there is something added by the tweet, we should try to link to the original content. Furthermore it seems to me that tweets are often written to maximize clicks and outrage, not further a discussion.
posted by humanfont at 1:45 PM on September 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

The Amish having a PAC seems like the most un-Amish thing ever. I would hope it's an astoturf operation run by some GOP operatives and that the Amish would see through it.
posted by PenDevil at 1:47 PM on September 17, 2016 [11 favorites]

It is misogynist if you call Hillary "a corporate sell-out and a warhawk," but don't apply the same label to Obama for doing the same things. Anybody who does that really does care what gender Hillary is, regardless of how they doth protest otherwise.

I mean, Obama, Biden, Bill Clinton, most of the post-DLC New Democrats arguably can be labelled as such. HRC isn't substantially worse than any of them, but she isn't substantially better. Certainly people could have been more critical of Obama, but also make sure to treat John Edwards exactly the same, otherwise they would have been accused of being racist.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:51 PM on September 17, 2016

"People to Compare Donald Trump To" Graphed by Coolness. I would've included Putin and Mr. Burns from The Simpsons myself.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:51 PM on September 17, 2016

Seen: A sign from Amish PAC encouraging America's plainest citizens to cast their votes for a flamboyant millionaire philanderer. They've also been getting hit by mail.

I personally want to know how the hell the Amish will vote in PA without drivers licences.
posted by Talez at 1:51 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Amish having a PAC seems like the most un-Amish thing ever. I would hope it's an astoturf operation run by some GOP operatives and I that the Amish would see through it.

Amish for Trump!

Amish PAC was started by an alum of a pro-Carson super PAC, an ex-Amish donor to that super PAC and an employee of Gingrich Productions. The group is planning to mount an old-fashioned, billboards-and-newspaper-ads effort this summer, designed to encourage Amish people in Pennsylvania and Ohio to turn out for Trump in November.

posted by peeedro at 1:53 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

I personally want to know how the hell the Amish will vote in PA without drivers licences.

wat
posted by tonycpsu at 1:54 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ok, I'm so sick of seeing people (elsewhere) going on about how corrupt Clinton is and how many scandals she's had, etc. Is there a handy single link to refute this idea?

From Whitewater to Benghazi: A Clinton-Scandal Primer
Donald Trump Says Hillary Clinton Is Corrupt — Is He Right?
posted by kirkaracha at 1:56 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

Doesn't PA have voter ID laws? The Republican House Leader was boasting back in 2012 that their voter ID laws were going to turn PA red.
posted by Talez at 1:57 PM on September 17, 2016

A woman told me today she hated HRC because of that "stand by your man" quote. Oh she hates Trump too but you know HRC and the cookie quote thing
posted by angrycat at 1:59 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Doesn't PA have voter ID laws? The Republican House Leader was boasting back in 2012 that their voter ID laws were going to turn PA red.

The voter ID laws were struck down based on provisions in the state constitution & never went into effect.
posted by jonp72 at 2:01 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

"I'm still trying to get over the picture from Flint the other day, is that from The Killing Joke or am I confusing it with The Dark Knight?"

"I was scared Secret Service would tackle me for touching him and there was a lot of people around yelling."

-Amariyanna Copeny.

Her mothers Facebook response:

"Ok ya'll, that pic is being BLOWN way out of proportion. Mari was not terrified of that man, she still wants to ask him her question."

Look, the people of this city have had historic strikes, Weatherman war councils, decimation of industry, epidemic like poverty, #1 murder rate, autoworld, Don Williamson and the poisioning of the water supply.

Donald Trump doesn't scare us, but the distortion of truth hurts and you don't get to do that.
posted by clavdivs at 2:04 PM on September 17, 2016 [10 favorites]

Re Amish voting without driver's licenses in a Voter ID state: Does Pennsylvania offer State ID cards? WA does--they look a whole lot like driver's licences and, if current, are accepted the same way as driver's licenses.

On review, jonp72 explains that this situation won't be necessary. It should be considered in any state that still has Voter ID, though. Unless the law is written to exclude the non-driving voter for some reason.
posted by Silverstone at 2:05 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

....Republican House Leader was boasting back in 2012...

Yeah, that was ole turdy-turd Turzai thinking he was the biggest smarty pants in the room.

I think eventually they did get some thing working in terms of VoterID, but it took a lot of effort and has been approved and repealed a number of times. I don't live in PA so I stopped trying to follow it.

This site seems to be current - Everyone.votesPA.com
posted by lampshade at 2:05 PM on September 17, 2016

I think the fact that Amish don't watch TV might be an immunization against Trumpism. But hell, if Trump is leading in Mormon territory anything could happen I guess.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:05 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

It is misogynist if you call Hillary "a corporate sell-out and a warhawk," but don't apply the same label to Obama for doing the same things.

That's valid and wise. I think most liberals and/or Democrats* who dislike Clinton for those reasons, though, are at least somewhat disappointed in Obama on the same grounds. It's just that the middle of a heated election when Obama's positions are pretty much moot isn't necessarily the time you're going to hear much about the latter. (There are probably disagreements each way about degree, too, but I don't think those have to be sexist any more than they have to be racist, and Obama isn't running against Clinton.)

Everyone on the center/left seems really, really fired up, anyway. One thing about daily Trump rage is that it shows there isn't any real enthusiasm gap to worry about, so that's good... I think?

* Now, a right-winger who dislikes Clinton and claims those same reasons rather than acknowledging sexism or other irrational hatred... well, those I have less charity toward, given how the right's acted in those areas for 30 years.
posted by rokusan at 2:07 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

First time voters in PA must have voter ID - I got to that link from the pa.gov dept of state page
posted by maggiemaggie at 2:11 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wow, I need to download all the Sam Bee shows now. I wasn't delighted with the first couple episodes, but if she's this sharp and on-target now, she's back to must-see in this house.
posted by rokusan at 2:12 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've been off social media for a couple of weeks and had limited Internet access as well. My heart fell when I looked at 538. I got into a passionate discussion with people over Eid, about how Clinton has been subject to a smear campaign for decades. Looking forward to casting my Ohio absentee ballot.
posted by bardophile at 2:14 PM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

A sign from Amish PAC encouraging America's plainest citizens to cast their votes for a flamboyant millionaire philanderer.

"Hard Working, Pro-Life, Family Dedicated...Just Like YOU." It's true. He's so decidated to families he's had five children by three wives.

Amish for Trump!

Donald Kraybill, an expert on the Amish people at Elizabethtown College, said he guesses that the most generous turnout scenario would be about 2,000 Amish voters each in Pennsylvania and Ohio.

In 2004, President George W. Bush received about 1,300 Amish votes in heavily Amish Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, he said — the product of the most successful political outreach to the community in recent memory.

posted by kirkaracha at 2:15 PM on September 17, 2016

I have plenty of acquaintances who are radical progressive anti-establishment types who really despise Clinton and Obama/Biden alike. I just want to note that these people indeed exist. And I don't believe in my heart of hearts that these women are self-loathing/internalized misogynists.

If the only response to "I think Hillary's policies and decisions have killed a lot of brown people and that is upsetting"/"Clinton is a warhawk" is "I bet you didn't say that about Obama/Biden!!!"/"Other politicians do it too!" - these folks read it as a cop-out and not much more.
posted by windbox at 2:17 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think most liberals and/or Democrats* who dislike Clinton for those reasons, though, are at least somewhat disappointed in Obama on the same grounds.

After finishing The Looming Tower, the 9/11 Commission Report, and The Secret History of ISIS, I am less convinced that measured hawkishness is essentially terrible. There are certainly arguments to be made that the US inevitably screws up overt, clandestine, and covert action, but sticking your head in the sand until something disastrous happens seems to also be bad.
posted by xyzzy at 2:18 PM on September 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

The article was directly linked in my text. Easily seen by hovering over the link. The tweet linked was from Brian Stelter of CNN, also clear while hovering, which I included because in addition to the information in the article, I often find interesting and valuable info and exchanges between the press in Twitter replies and threads. So I gave both options in case people were interested in convos on it outside of MeFi.
posted by chris24 at 2:18 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

I agree with the idea of linking articles over tweets to articles (and chris24 did directly link the article), but I do appreciate the people who post interesting and often hilarious tweets in these threads, because I don't generally have the time or energy to keep up with election stuff on Twitter, and I feel like I get a "best of" view thanks to those of you who post quality tweets.
posted by zachlipton at 2:25 PM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

After finishing The Looming Tower, the 9/11 Commission Report, and The Secret History of ISIS, I am less convinced that measured hawkishness is essentially terrible.

Those of us who remember the 90s and the Bill Clinton Presidency are essentially convinced that measured hawkishness, as long as it is measured, isn't essentially terrible. Not intervening in Rwanda was a tragedy. The NATO intervention in Bosnia probably stopped a lot of ethnic cleansing.
posted by Francis at 2:27 PM on September 17, 2016 [41 favorites]

Trump is massively corrupt, criminally dishonest, greedy, power-hungry, lecherous and bigoted in multiple ways. He is the perfect reflection of Traditional America. But his lifelong business practices show that his bigotry is a lessor factor in his decisions; only in his calculations to build support has he let that flag fly, but as President, if the ruling sheik of a country he has hotels in were to pressure him, he'd drop any anti-Muslim proposals in a heartbeat. And he'd stop complaining forever about any company exporting jobs to China if the Bank of China were to write-off his personal debts to them. I actually trust Trump not to throw nukes at any country that could throw nukes back at us. But there are parts of the Middle East he'd love to make permanently radioactive (and he'd take their radioactive oil... fossil fuels AND nuclear energy together, what a deal!!)

And here's an analogy: America is on a steady downward slide. If Hillary were President, we'd continue that route, with minor adjustments on some issues to slow the decline. If Trump were President, we'd go straight off the nearest cliff into the jagged rocks below. An there is nobody America who can ever get the support to be elected President who would reverse our downward slide, including Sanders... not without electing a LOT of other anti-downward people to other offices. And the VAST majority of Americans may complain about the downward slide, but would complain louder if they had to stop riding and begin to trudge back uphill.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:39 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

So Russia just suggested that the White House supports ISIS

Being worried about Putin's shenanigans ain't red-baiting in this wonderful year of 2016, folks
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:43 PM on September 17, 2016 [21 favorites]

Do you have to sign up in advance to volunteer? My work schedule is fairly crazy right now, so whenever I go to sign up for something, I have no idea if I'm going to be able to commit, so I don't. But there are times when I could totally volunteer; I just don't always know about them in advance. Can I just like, show up at the Hillary campaign office and ask to be put to work?

Online phone banking could be a great option for you! You can sign in and pick up calls whenever, and all from the comfort of your own home! I like to call from my front porch and/or in my PJs.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:44 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

By what objective measure is "America on a steady downward slide?" Since when?
posted by spitbull at 2:46 PM on September 17, 2016 [13 favorites]

So Russia just suggested that the White House supports ISIS

Being worried about Putin's shenanigans ain't red-baiting in this wonderful year of 2016, folks

That's not new, that's the standard Kremlin line. 'The West are fascists (like literally the descendants of the Nazis) who created ISIS, only Putin can stand up to American fascism and state sponsorship of terror to protect Russia and the world.'
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:47 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

Put differently, a slide from what? When was this golden age from which we have "slid"?

For persons of color, at least, dates before the enactment of the Civil Rights Act don't count. And since then things have hardly ever been rosy either.
posted by spitbull at 2:49 PM on September 17, 2016 [15 favorites]

If the only response to "I think Hillary's policies and decisions have killed a lot of brown people and that is upsetting"/"Clinton is a warhawk" is "I bet you didn't say that about Obama/Biden!!!"/"Other politicians do it too!" - these folks read it as a cop-out and not much more.

Well I think the question there is "who did you vote for in 2012." If they say Obama, then they are not being consistent to their principles. I mean I did get into an argument with someone and eventually it came down to "I'm a pacifist and won't vote for anyone who wages war" and "Stein is the pacifist candidate" and I just wished him luck with that, but asked him to cease using the term "murderer" about Clinton because she served as Secretary of State or, at least, also be willing to call everyone else involved with the federal government murderers as well.

So, yeah, if you're a pure pacifist and that's your one issue, fine, but if that only comes up when you talk about Clinton....I think there's bias happening.
posted by threeturtles at 2:53 PM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

By what objective measure is "America on a steady downward slide?" Since when?

Probably since the formation of a fascist white nationalist party that has strong support from the military and law enforcement
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:54 PM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

Let me add one more formulation: for Trump (and Sanders/Stein supporters in my opinion) the main "downward slide" appears to be in, very specifically, the domain of white male privilege.

In aggregate economic terms America was never any fairer than it is today,or any wealthier or more powerful. We have 5% unemployment with -- yes! -- rising incomes and markets. No draft. Improving air and water quality over 30-40 years. And vibrant wealthy cities with low crime rates. More people have health insurance than ever before too. And go to college.

Seems to me the election pits "steady downward slide (in my white privilege)" folks against everyone else for whom things have been looking up overall, not least since we elected our first president of color.
posted by spitbull at 2:56 PM on September 17, 2016 [18 favorites]

Probably since the formation of a fascist white nationalist party that has strong support from the military and law enforcement

So... since always?
posted by asteria at 2:57 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

RobotVoodooPower, this election represents a "slide" perhaps, but only if Trump wins. His exact pitch is "steady downward slide amirite white folks?"
posted by spitbull at 2:57 PM on September 17, 2016

Also on the issues of pacifism and hawkishness, what I find so disingenuous in that argument is "Ok, so, what should we do?" I was incredibly, loudly opposed to the Iraq War in 2003. I am, by philosophical nature a pacifist non-interventionist. But unfortunately, the leader of our country was determined to lead us all into a shitshow and that created the global situation we now have. It created ISIS. It led to the instability of an entire region and a dedicated organization of terrorists with no central core to defeat.

So given that we don't have a time machine, what are we supposed to do NOW? "Not getting involved" isn't an option. Saying "Our bad" and explaining that really, we've changed and won't make any more mistakes if people just don't attack us isn't going to work. So, what, from a pacifist, non-hawkish POV are we supposed to do. Saying "if only we hadn't gone into Iraq" is correct but currently meaningless. The fact is that shit is a mess and if we do nothing, it's likely to only get worse and lots and lots of people are going to die. So, now what?
posted by threeturtles at 3:04 PM on September 17, 2016 [20 favorites]

The people criticizing Clinton's hawkish tendencies aren't hypocrites for not voting for Stein or Johnson or La Riva or whoever.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if they say they won't vote for Clinton because she's a hawk but they DID vote for Obama (the second time, I can see a 2008 vote being anti-war), then that's a contradiction. I'm not talking about people who are criticizing but voting for her, I'm talking about all the people saying they're voting third party or sitting this out.
posted by threeturtles at 3:06 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Russia just suggested that the White House supports ISIS
You wonder who Trump would nuke? Every territory controlled by anti-Sadat rebels, both ISIS and honest freedom-fighters, and it'd inevitably be a joint effort of the US and Russia, we'd provide some bombs and they'd provide some.

By what objective measure is "America on a steady downward slide?" Since when?
I'm speaking from the viewpoint of the leftists whose #1 issue is Income/Wealth distribution (warning: link to Bernie Sanders campaign website), as the persons to whom that argument should be made. Under Trump, most of America's wealth won't go to the .01%, it'll go to the .0000001% - Donald's family.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:08 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

If you are unwilling to vote for Hillary because she is a secretive, warmongering, cryptofascist then chances are good that your privilege insulates yourself from the negative consequences of a potential Trump presidency.

Stein and Johnson have zero chance to win and quite frankly if Hillary loses the next Democratic candidate will be even more centrist.

Losses result in future candidates running towards the center rather than running towards the margins.

But sure go ahead and engage in the standard x=not liberal enough for me so I abstain or protest vote but be sure to explain to those people whose lives will be materially worse under Trump why your convictions should be more important than their lives and wellbeing.
posted by vuron at 3:09 PM on September 17, 2016 [61 favorites]

So, at this point the RNC could literally nominate Hitler, or Satan, and still poll 40+% of the electorate.

What the fcuk is wrong with our white people?
posted by percor at 3:13 PM on September 17, 2016 [38 favorites]

White supremacy (because this goes beyond mere privilege) is apparently the most important thing and must be defended at all costs.
posted by asteria at 3:15 PM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

What the fcuk is wrong with our white people?

my business was shut down by illegal immigrants.... The bigger companies filter people in with fake I.D.'s they can pay them next to nothing and underbid contracts. I'm all for immigration but it has to be done the right way. And I'm sorry if I'm worried about our current relationship with Muslims. This is a sovereign country and should be kept as so. We are more than happy to have you! And hopefully in the future can open back up to the Middle East but as of now our failed policies in the Middle East has created a monster that we cannot see coming. We have way to many problems of our own here, we need to worry about ourselves before giving more hand outs. There are plenty of countries in the Middle East that have plenty of space for immigrants? Why is this even an issue? But again this is one of the things that make this country great. I can have my opinion and it should be respected as I respect others. I might not agree but I do respect.

One of the few Trump supporters I know. His own business failed, he's broke and scared. He's an ex-con so he struggles to find "normal" employment. I can't really blame him. From his vantage point he's got two crappy choices and at least one seems to be full of bravado, extraordinarily loud about what's wrong with the status quo, and assuring him that he'll fix it.
posted by Talez at 3:19 PM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's just team thinking. If your college football team gets a suspected rapist as a quarterback you'll find a way to like him (if you're a standard issue college football fan, that is).
posted by argybarg at 3:19 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

White supremacy (because this goes beyond mere privilege) is apparently the most important thing and must be defended at all costs.

God I hope this is a winning strategy:

By squarely siding with civil rights activists who demand that racism be forcefully confronted, she’s making clear that she views her path to victory doesn’t run through the white working-class vote. Rather, she’s making a bet that the makeup of 21st century America allows her to do something no Democratic nominee, not even Barack Obama, has done before: win the White House without winking at white grievance.
posted by percor at 3:23 PM on September 17, 2016 [24 favorites]

People really exist in their media bubbles so it makes it extraordinarily difficult to express nuance about a situation. When hardline conservatives blame Clinton because the Arab Spring occurred under her watch they don't know the situation because it's deep and extraordinarily complicated. All they know is Obama was President, Clinton was Secretary of State and everything over there went to shit. They don't know who Mohamed Bouazizi or why he even matters in all of this. Hell, I try to immerse myself in this and even I had to Google his name. God help you if you are a man on the street trying to make heads or tails of this.
posted by Talez at 3:23 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

If you have lived your entire life where white males dominate politics and commerce and you have internalized that as being the only conceivable state of affairs your brain is capable of engaging in a remarkable level of rationalizations.

Trump isn't racist he is standing up for traditional values and job creators.

He isn't sexist he just wants to make sure religious values are respected (as long as they are Christian values).

That and some people just really like someone who is willing to use racism and not be apologetic about it because people shouldn't have to feel bad for using racial slurs I guess
posted by vuron at 3:28 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

vuron: I was going to quote a bunch of your comments to reply but I realized that could come across as jerky, so I'll just say that hanging our hats on the idea that the polling around this election is significantly off because it is undercounting minority and younger voters is probably a desperation move. Like... if polling is showing a dead heat on election day you bet I'll be crossing my fingers for this supposed groundswell of minority voters which polling isn't picking up on but it would really, really, really be better if Clinton were ahead with more traditional voter models instead. Because likely voters vote. That's what makes them likely voters. Unlikely voters vote at lower rates.

Do I hope those unlikely voters come out in higher numbers this time around? Yes. But most campaigns which depend on the polling being wrong and not picking up less-likely voter support end up being losing campaigns.
posted by Justinian at 3:31 PM on September 17, 2016 [14 favorites]

Sorry, but in my personal anecdotal experience, I've known maybe 5 'ex-cons' (that admitted so), and the only one I personally ever trusted was NOT a white male... but every one of the white males would be preferred for a job before him.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:33 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Maybe this isn't the best thread to discuss Stein, because, e.g., I don't know much about Stein, and I tried keyword searching up and but seems to be a lack is somebody knowledgeable about Stein and is able to discuss and critique her approach in a clear and calm manner. Instead, I saw a lot of hate on Stein and ambiguous criticism of her followers or supporters, but that angry talk is the last thing we need. It's also not a liberal attitude.
posted by polymodus at 3:36 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

So wait we can't vote third party this time because of Trump. Last time because reasons, the time before that because, HRC might win, the time before that because more reasons. When, when is it a good time to get rid of the two party duopoly?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 3:42 PM on September 17, 2016

I don't know, ask the respective third parties when they'll start taking the down-ticket races more seriously.

Or when they'll show a willingness to work with the parties to get policy passed. Because that's something that happens in a multi-party system.
posted by asteria at 3:45 PM on September 17, 2016 [52 favorites]

So wait we can't vote third party this time because of Trump. Last time because reasons, the time before that because, HRC might win, the time before that because more reasons. When, when is it a good time to get rid of the two party duopoly?

There will never be a removal of the duopoly. There will only be a reformation of the parties that make up the duopoly and at the moment that appears to be the Republicans turning into Know Nothings.
posted by Talez at 3:46 PM on September 17, 2016 [17 favorites]

Voting for a 3rd party Presidential candidate does not further the goal of eliminating the two party duopoly. That's like shooting your self in the head to remove a splinter from your foot.
posted by humanfont at 3:46 PM on September 17, 2016 [19 favorites]

So the Vice reporter who was arrested at a Trump even was formerly an editorial assistant to Maureen Dowd. From the Washington Post's coverage:

That's right. Thompson is not just any random reporter. He used to be an editorial assistant to New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd, who has written critically about Trump and released a book this week called "The Year of Voting Dangerously" — an unflattering take on both major-party presidential nominees. Dowd has been all over news programs in recent days discussing the book.

Trump has certainly noticed. Around the time Thompson was being arrested, Trump was blasting Dowd on Twitter.

Could it be a coincidence? Anything is possible. But Thompson's arrest smells of vengeance.

posted by peeedro at 3:46 PM on September 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

I'm still trying to get over the picture from Flint the other day, is that from The Killing Joke or am I confusing it with The Dark Knight?

But think of the tale she'll be able to tell her children about the day she felt the cold, dead grasp of Lord Magog. That's a priceless family memory there.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:47 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

If you are unwilling to vote for Hillary because she is a secretive, warmongering, cryptofascist then chances are good that your privilege insulates yourself from the negative consequences of a potential Trump presidency.

That's not necessarily true.

For instance, young people (including young black people and young Latinxs) are more likely to vote third party in 2016 than older folk, in spite of being economically less privileged and racially much more diverse than the country at large.
posted by splitpeasoup at 3:48 PM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

When, when is it a good time to get rid of the two party duopoly?

The two party duopoly is a fundamental part of our system. You can't get rid of it, only change the platforms of the parties which compose the duopoly.

Ok, you could have a Constitutional Amendment which changes the nature of our system. But you can't change the duopoly through voting for a third party.
posted by Justinian at 3:49 PM on September 17, 2016 [35 favorites]

Do I hope those unlikely voters come out in higher numbers this time around? Yes. But most campaigns which depend on the polling being wrong and not picking up less-likely voter support end up being losing campaigns

Which is great because Clinton leads in the states she needs, and Trump's whole campaign strategy is making white non-voters angry enough to figure out how to register and find their polling place.
posted by one_bean at 3:55 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

The most viable 3rd party run in this country's history was when a former President, pissed that his successor had turned his back on a progressive agenda and was in the pocket of wall street, ran against his party.
TR was responsible for Wilson winning the presidency in 1912, because the split cost the Republicans because TR was too popular, and the Progressives, because like all third parties, they lacked ground troops.
If TR, master of the press, hugely popular as a war hero, winner of the Nobel Peace Prize, and arguably the biggest celebrity of his day, couldn't break the duopoly, it will take more than any current politician has at their disposal to do it.
posted by OHenryPacey at 3:56 PM on September 17, 2016 [52 favorites]

Justinian: The two party duopoly is a fundamental part of our system. You can't get rid of it, only change the platforms of the parties which compose the duopoly.

Ok, you could have a Constitutional Amendment which changes the nature of our system. But you can't change the duopoly through voting for a third party.

OK, I'm in need of a Constitutional Law lesson here. I know full well that the two-party system is the default political mechanism in the U. S., but how is it "baked into" the actual Constitution. I know that we don't have a Parliamentary system here, but are we legally locked into a two-party system by the Constitution?
posted by Surely This at 3:57 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

My wife (white, middle-class, college educated) refuses to vote for HRC on the sheer fact that she didn't walk out on Bill's ass during the Lewinsky hearings...like the way she did on her first husband. Is it wrong she has a memory that goes back earlier than 2007?
posted by JoeZydeco at 4:03 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

RobotVoodooPower: I think the fact that Amish don't watch TV might be an immunization against Trumpism. But hell, if Trump is leading in Mormon territory anything could happen I guess.

Is this a deliberate non-sequitor? The Amish aren't Mormon.

spitbull: By what objective measure is "America on a steady downward slide?" Since when?

RobotVoodooPower: Probably since the formation of a fascist white nationalist party that has strong support from the military and law enforcement

There has always been a strong, fascist, white nationalist movement in the US; it predates the US. It has long been a large part of the military and law enforcement as well and received support from both; there are strong arguments to make that both organizations exist in part to reinforce class, gender, and racial inequality (see: their use against political protests, their use in expanding US influence in foreign countries).

One of the interesting things about the US is because of how we were structured, people with vastly different opinions and beliefs were combined and work together. Sometimes it falls apart; the biggest fall apart was in the Civil War and the Union side literally violated the Constitution to win (one example: Lincoln set aside Habeus Corpus in Maryland so his capital wouldn't be surrounded). I'm personally glad the Union won, but I'm realistic about what it took.

Equally strong, since the founding of the US, has been a dedication to the literal idea of All People Are Created Equal even though the guy who wrote those words sucked at their literal application (and was critiqued for that at the time!). This dedication led to how the Civil War ended, weakened during Reconstruction and in the face of racism, led to Women's Sufferage, became more complex as more people recognized how many axes of discrimination there are, led to Civil Rights, complexified as the degree to which individuals could undercut those rights became more obvious, led to Occupy, became even more complex in the face of the racial and sexual dynamics of fiscal inequality and the increasingly recognized voices of Native Americans, led to Marriage Equality, became more complex as evidence grew that people already privileged along most axes benefited most, led to Black Lives Matter where all of the lessons learned from previous experiences have created a nuanced, organized but decentralized movement which stands in solidarity with an astonishing range of other movements (take the NoDAPL movement just beginning to coalesce around the unification of the Native Americans with whom #BLM stand).

This second movement is by definition larger, more inclined to in-fighting, and much more complex because the biases don't just exist in the "other side" at any point, but also within groups as the multiple axes of discrimination intersect. Even within #BLM the argument has been made that it's Black, Queer, Woman founders have often been reduced to just their race, that the deaths of black men are higher profile, that other LGBTQ movements sometimes are supportive and sometimes treat #BLM as if it doesn't belong within an LGBTQ context.

This difference is inherent to the different structure of the two movements - one centralized around wealthy, white, straight-acting, able bodied and minded, cis gendered men (who occasionally include someone who doesn't have one of those characteristics) and the other ....not. The former has the advantage of being the status quo, of having people with all of those characteristics denigrate themselves because of it, and of having a consolidation of current money, power, and influence. The latter has the advantage of numbers and moral high-ground.

The moral high-ground piece is why the arguments on the part of the former have been about undercutting the value of morality for my entire lifetime and likely before, it's why "PC" and "SJW" are both insults, why "community organizer" was treated like a slur, why no one is talking about Clinton's Listening Tours and how progressive her platform are, why there are people embracing being "Degenerates" now.

I have an incredible amount of hope based on Occupy, #BLM, and the no-DAPL movements. They are on the ground, doing the hard work of forming coalitions and repairing old relationships. They will make this country into what it should be.
posted by Deoridhe at 4:04 PM on September 17, 2016 [17 favorites]

By requiring a majority of electoral college votes rather than a plurality - added to the fact that you can win all a states electoral college votes with a plurality (excepting ME and NE) - the constitution effectively encourages a duopoly.
posted by chris24 at 4:06 PM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

OK, I'm in need of a Constitutional Law lesson here. I know full well that the two-party system is the default political mechanism in the U. S., but how is it "baked into" the actual Constitution. I know that we don't have a Parliamentary system here, but are we legally locked into a two-party system by the Constitution?

First past the post voting in almost all electoral districts plus the electoral college virtually guarantees an extra candidate would only run as a spoiler.
posted by Talez at 4:06 PM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

I know full well that the two-party system is the default political mechanism in the U. S., but how is it "baked into" the actual Constitution.

There are some interesting answers on that here.

Short answer, it's not spelled out, but it's the natural result of what's in there.
posted by waitingtoderail at 4:07 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

My wife (white, middle-class, college educated) refuses to vote for HRC on the sheer fact that she didn't walk out on Bill's ass during the Lewinsky hearings...like the way she did on her first husband. Is it wrong she has a memory that goes back earlier than 2007?

Your wife has decided to hold HRC responsible for her husband's actions. That's her choice, but I hope you understand why few people here will encourage that line of thinking.

Our memories also go back beyond 2007. As a result, we remember Lewinsky. We also remember Bush Jr., Reagan, Nixon, and Mussolini. We remember that elections have consequences more important than marital infidelity.
posted by saturday_morning at 4:09 PM on September 17, 2016 [89 favorites]

Our system is a first past the post system with no elements of proportional representation.

By it's very structure it can only accommodate a third party for a short period of time and generally only as a spoiler. Long term a successful third party will get absorbed by an existing party or will replace an existing party.

And that's before stuff like Citizens United pretty much making third party runs impossible outside of a vanity run for billionaires.
posted by vuron at 4:09 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

If one thinks contemporary "income inequality" is the most serious existential threat we have faced or indeed face now, I suggest one is still thinking within a frame of unquestioned white privilege.

The golden age of income *equality* (let alone even more basic forms of equality) never existed for communities of color. Its existence for white "middle class" Americans (the site of Millennial leftist imaginary projection since OWS at least) was inarguably dependent on segregation and racial inequality, rooted in African slavery and the genocidal taking of sovereign Native lands and resources.

The "working class" in any correctly Marxist sense in the US is now "majority minority" and decidedly urban, but to hear the bright young things on TeeVee tell it you'd think it was mostly made of middle aged white men in suburban towns.
posted by spitbull at 4:10 PM on September 17, 2016 [25 favorites]

My understanding of the dominance of the dual party system in the US is because of our election system being one of First Past the Post. I got my understanding from this video.
posted by Deoridhe at 4:11 PM on September 17, 2016

They are on the ground, doing the hard work of forming coalitions and repairing old relationships. They will make this country into what it should be.
posted by Deoridhe at 7:04 PM on September 17

WILL YOU MARRY ME?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:12 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

To be fair saturday_morning blaming the woman for marital infidelity has a long tradition in human society.
posted by vuron at 4:13 PM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

refuses to vote for HRC on the sheer fact that she didn't walk out on Bill's ass during the Lewinsky hearings...like the way she did on her first husband.

Part of feminism is respecting other women's choices. Your wife made a different choice than HRC did, in a different situation, with a different personal history with her husband.

I don't think anyone has taken the fact that HRC stayed with Bill as a directive that all wives of cheating husbands must stay with them. And if they do, that's wrong. Women get to make their own decisions.
posted by suelac at 4:14 PM on September 17, 2016 [48 favorites]

OK, I'm in need of a Constitutional Law lesson here. I know full well that the two-party system is the default political mechanism in the U. S., but how is it "baked into" the actual Constitution. I know that we don't have a Parliamentary system here, but are we legally locked into a two-party system by the Constitution?

The two party system is not literally written into the Constitution, but it is typically viewed as an inevitable consequence of a first past the post plurality voting system (Duverger's law). The question then is why that doesn't entirely hold true in countries like the UK (where, of course, the primary contributions of the Lib-Dems was to roll over for Cameron, apologize, and lose almost all their seats in the next election) or India, which have had a number of coalition governments. Even in those cases, the alliances that get formed start to resemble two party systems in some respects. It's not quite as simple as saying that we can't have more than two viable parties, but there are structural forces that make it the most stable system over the long-term.

There's a reason why the Green Party advocates for ranked choice voting (instant runoff) and proportional representation systems, as these forms of voting tend to produce more opportunities for third parties.
posted by zachlipton at 4:14 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

WILL YOU MARRY ME?

OMG I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR YOU TO ASK!!! OF COURSE!
posted by Deoridhe at 4:14 PM on September 17, 2016 [21 favorites]

I should have added gender inequality to my analysis. The modern "working class" archetype is a woman of color in a big city. Mea culpa.
posted by spitbull at 4:15 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

Trump’s Economic Plan—-A Dog’s Breakfast Of Some Decent Ideas And A Lot Of Really Bad Fiscal Math
by David Stockman • September 16, 2016
posted by robbyrobs at 4:18 PM on September 17, 2016

Is it wrong she has a memory that goes back earlier than 2007?

No, but it is ridiculous that she is basing her vote today on something that happened like a million presidencies ago, had no effect on the welfare of the country then, has nothing to do with running a country now, and is in fact none of her business.
posted by kythuen at 4:21 PM on September 17, 2016 [79 favorites]

Putin offers tacit support for 'pro-Russia' US candidate

"Russian President Vladimir Putin on Saturday offered what appeared to be his strongest support yet for US presidential candidate Donald Trump -- without explicitly naming him.

"We are carefully watching what is happening in the United States and we, of course, view with sympathy those who publicly state that it is necessary to build a relationship with Russia, on basis of equality," he told journalists at a briefing shown on television.

His remarks were a clear allusion to Trump, the outspoken Republican nominee, who has emphatically professed his readiness to work with Putin, and at one point even said the Russian strongman was much more of a leader than US President Barack Obama."
posted by chris24 at 4:22 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

So, at this point the RNC could literally nominate Hitler, or Satan, and still poll 40+% of the electorate.

As argybarg says, this is probably team thinking, which has been on the rise in this country for the last few decades of increasing partisanship.

I don't want to sound like Mitt Romney, but there's a significant percentage of voters that will vote R or D no matter who the nominees are, and this percentage is probably in the 40 percents somewhere. Maybe high 30's. The decline of split-ticket voting over the last 40 or 50 years shows this has been happening for awhile.

(Of course this year we might see a lot of split tickets that are mainly R but leave off the R nominee for president, but I think everyone agrees this is a pretty atypical year. We'll find out in 2018.)
posted by rokusan at 4:23 PM on September 17, 2016

had no effect on the welfare of the country then

I dunno, wasn't there a central European country we suddenly had to bomb to bring them freedom?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 4:25 PM on September 17, 2016

I have to admit, I have enjoyed seeing Bill step into the roll of first male First Lady candidate a lot. I knew he had to have had practice being the support person since Clinton has been nearly Non-Stop for years, but I was not expecting the warm rush I felt when I watched him fall back with Anne Holton to walk behind Clinton and Kaine a if it were the most natural thing in the world. That image, of Clinton and Kaine striding off together, smiling confidently while Bill and Anne followed after chatting is seared into my mind.
posted by Deoridhe at 4:26 PM on September 17, 2016 [34 favorites]

If one thinks contemporary "income inequality" is the most serious existential threat we have faced or indeed face now, I suggest one is still thinking within a frame of unquestioned white privilege.

I agree. My "here's an analogy" upthread was targeted at those specific "they're both the same" people, not ALL the "they're both the same" people. There are several different directions for reaching different foolish voters, because there are many paths that lead to stupid voting (either 'third partiers' or members in the Other, non Deplorable basket of Trump supporters... the ones who MAY possibly be reached).
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:27 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

I just finished a three hour phone banking shift at the Hillary office in Portland. Please favorite.
posted by chrchr at 4:29 PM on September 17, 2016 [163 favorites]

My lay understanding of the instrumental reason why FPTP leads to two parties being a stable state of the system is that approximately 50% of the vote awards 100% of the political power. So at a certain critical electoral mass, when a party can consistently hit pluralities, it has a lensing effect; but below that level the reverse is true, and a solid and consistent 25% or more of the vote just melts away into 0% of the political power, in long-run averages.
posted by XMLicious at 4:31 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

How did it go, chrchr?
posted by Francis at 4:31 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

My lay understanding of the instrumental reason why FPTP leads to two parties being a stable state of the system is that approximately 50% of the vote awards 100% of the political power. So at a certain critical electoral mass, when a party can consistently hit pluralities, it has a lensing effect; but below that level the reverse is true, and a solid and consistent 25% or more of the vote just melts away into 0% of the political power, in long-run averages.

More or less. But the reason there are only two parties in the US is because you have the Presidency. In both Britain and Canada there are more than two significant parties, although almost any given seat has only two if not fewer. (There are Tory/Labour seats. Tory/Lib Dem seats. Labour/Lib Dem seats. And even a few Labour/Green seats these days). There is however no need to combine at a national level (just ask the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Meybon Kernow, or the various Northern Irish parties).
posted by Francis at 4:34 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

I must admit that Hillary never severing ties with Bill was on my list of negatives regarding her as a candidate, that it seemed to be more of her need for him and his connections as a practical matter than anything emotional or love-based (and that may just be 'bad optics'), and yet in the long run, a lot of her lingering image problems (like seeming less liberal than she really is) are Bill-based. IT WAS NEVER ANYWHERE CLOSE TO A DEAL BREAKER FOR ME, but, as a similar example, I'm still quite relieved that Hil's top advisor Huma Abedin is finally cutting Anthony Weiner loose. Come on, if Ask MetaFilter had existed in the last months of the Bill Clinton Administration and Hillary had made an anonymous post with her circumstances, is there any doubt that the overwhelming response would've been "DTMFA"?
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:39 PM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

For instance, young people (including young black people and young Latinxs) are more likely to vote third party in 2016

THANK YOU for posting that. I've said here many times before, but everyone's "only white males vote third party" critiques turn to shit if they saw my social media feeds. My BoB/Stein-supporting friends are mostly women of color. Try telling them that they're being sexist and privileged because of their protest votes. Like it's literally impossible to imagine that radical anti-Clinton types could be anything other than middle class/upper class white males. Like it's impossible to imagine that BLM was actually contributing quite a lot to the booing and protesting at the DNC.

I'm as pro-Clinton as they come, but I find the erasure happening within ultra-left Clinton critique severely disappointing. I suppose some people need a straw narrative to latch onto.
posted by windbox at 4:39 PM on September 17, 2016 [19 favorites]

Josh Marshall: The Fever Inside

But there's one part of the last few days that doesn't quite match up to this pattern or at least not on first glance. The fuse for yesterday's debacle was lit late Wednesday night when the Post's Robert Costa interviewed Trump on the tarmac in Canton, Ohio in his private jet. Already in this interview, the transgressive, belligerent Trump was back after a few weeks of uncharacteristic discipline. I could see it the moment I read the copy.

...

As I'm sure many of you did, the moment I read the piece I could tell the fever was back: stabbing at the birther questions, lashing out at Anderson Cooper, boasting that he wouldn't trim any sails or make any concessions. But why? Here was Trump, at the apex of what he's managed to achieve in the campaign, drawing close to a tie with Hillary Clinton, lurching back into Khan/Curiel mode. When I read it it struck me as simply the truth of the man: feeling himself 'winning' he was entirely unable to resist the urge to lash out, strike out at enemies with what felt like his regained power, to regain dominance. He's Trump; he'll always give way to chaotic and self-destructive rages. To do it when he was riding high wasn't a mystery to be explained but the most obvious time. It's the novelistic fatal flaw.

But reflecting on it, there may be more to the story...

posted by homunculus at 4:42 PM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

"This dedication led to how the Civil War ended, weakened during Reconstruction and in the face of racism, led to Women's Sufferage."

We are entitled to opinions and interpretation, but your time line is an interpolation of facts not chronology which suggests a modicum of academic honesty or at least cite something to support your claim for example, was woman's sufferage really a result of the civil wars end? It took 55 years, that's not a chronological success.
posted by clavdivs at 4:44 PM on September 17, 2016

So Trump is threatening the Times now.

My lawyers want to sue the failing @nytimes so badly for irresponsible intent. I said no (for now), but they are watching. Really disgusting

And the tweet before that one:

The failing @nytimes has gone nuts that Crooked Hillary is doing so badly. They are willing to say anything, has become a laughingstock rag!
posted by chris24 at 4:53 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

Come on, if Ask MetaFilter had existed in the last months of the Bill Clinton Administration and Hillary had made an anonymous post with her circumstances, is there any doubt that the overwhelming response would've been "DTMFA"?

Almost certainly. But. People who post Ask MeFi (or other ask) posts in bad situations are normally wanting someone from outside to tell them to DTMFA. And normally if you read between the lines you can see this is the advice they want - but most of their friends are TMFA's friends as well and they are scared to.
posted by Francis at 4:54 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

So Trump is threatening the Times now.

I assume it has to do with this: With $885 million in tax breaks, Donald Trump built an empire in New York
posted by PenDevil at 4:55 PM on September 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

Thanks for all of the responses to my question about the constitutionality of the two-party system. First past the goalpost, yeah. :/

I have another deep thought about the Constitution. Bear with me...

I saw a Facebook comment today that Trump was benefitting from a "gerrymander". Yeah, no. The comment was well intentioned, and it was on a public page infested by trolls, so I didn't bother to correct it. Gerrymanders affect district-level elections, but anything statewide can't be influenced by districting. But that brings me to this observation:

There is a bias toward smaller states baked into the electoral college. The EC is apportioned according to the Congressional delegation for each state. The House is apportioned by population, but each state gets two Senators regardless of population. So Wyoming (population 582,658) gets the same number of Senators, and subsequent EC votes, as California. (population 38,332,521).

Here are the ten largest states by population: California, Texas, New York, Illinois, Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Georgia, Michigan, North Carolina.
And the ten smallest by population: Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Montana, Delaware, South Dakota, Alaska, North Dakota, Vermont, Wyoming.

Does it seem like the "big states" are mostly Democratic-leaning or swing states, with the exception of Texas and Georgia? The small states seem fairly skewed towards the Republicans. Hmm.
posted by Surely This at 4:56 PM on September 17, 2016

'Irresponsible intent' sounds more like me on a Friday night than a tort, but IANAL.
posted by chris24 at 4:57 PM on September 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

I must admit that Hillary never severing ties with Bill was on my list of negatives regarding her as a candidate, that it seemed to be more of her need for him and his connections as a practical matter than anything emotional or love-based (and that may just be 'bad optics')

This is a personal opinion, but his behavior during the DNC cemented for me that he loves her and she loves him and that's why she stayed. My read of the relationship is that he stepped up and became better, and part of that was him being behind her 100% in her political ambitions. I believe her ambitions were and are real, and are based on a desire to help other people and make a difference in the world which has somehow survived even people on her own side insulting her for it. Politically speaking, I have no idea what effect a divorce would have; Before Trump, the only person to run for president while divorced (but remarried) was Ronald Reagan.
posted by Deoridhe at 4:58 PM on September 17, 2016 [36 favorites]

it seemed to be more of her need for him and his connections as a practical matter than anything emotional or love-based (and that may just be 'bad optics')

What gives you this unique inside into other people's marriages and how they work? Super powers? Special glasses? How is what happens in their marriage anyone else's business?

I think it's completely possible they're two freaking smart people and are each the smartest person they know and they love each other. And he's a horndog. And she married him anyway and stayed with him anyway because she loves him. But it's still not my business.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:58 PM on September 17, 2016 [36 favorites]

I assume it has to do with this: With $885 million in tax breaks, Donald Trump built an empire in New York

To echo a complaint upthread. Please stop linking to Twitter if you want to link to a story elsewhere. Link straight to that story.
posted by Francis at 4:58 PM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

My lawyers want to sue the failing @nytimes so badly for irresponsible intent. I said no (for now), but they are watching. Really disgusting

As Josh Marshall has been pointing out, "irresponsible intent" is not a real tort. It is not a thing you can sue for. If his lawyers told him they wanted to sue for it, those may not have been lawyers. They may have been Scott Baio.
posted by saturday_morning at 5:00 PM on September 17, 2016 [46 favorites]

Oh, and regarding "first past the goalpost" voting: Anyone remember Lani Guinier? She was (Bill) Clinton's nominee for Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights in April 1993. Her nomination was shot down when it was revealed that she had advocated for cumulative voting.
posted by Surely This at 5:00 PM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

I assume it has to do with this: With $885 million in tax breaks, Donald Trump built an empire in New York

Direct link; that's exactly the thing, he didn't even just start with a million dollars, he started with all of his father's government and financial connections and with his father's ability to guarantee loans and provide other advantages.
posted by XMLicious at 5:01 PM on September 17, 2016 [19 favorites]

Oh, so the self-righteous Facebook screeds about defriending Trump supporters etc. seem to be working out well.
posted by listen, lady at 5:02 PM on September 17, 2016

They may have been Scott Baio.

Joanie Loves C̶h̶a̶c̶h̶i̶ Litigation
posted by chris24 at 5:02 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

The NYT will allow you to see the full article when it originates from Twitter but not from a direct link which is why it might be better in some cases to post a link to a tweet.
posted by PenDevil at 5:03 PM on September 17, 2016 [26 favorites]

I dunno, wasn't there a central European country we suddenly had to bomb to bring them freedom?

No.
posted by humanfont at 5:05 PM on September 17, 2016 [16 favorites]

This is a personal opinion, but his behavior during the DNC cemented for me that he loves her and she loves him and that's why she stayed.

Yep, their marriage is their business, but this moment from the DNC after her speech looked like pretty genuine affection to me!
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 5:05 PM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

There is a bias toward smaller states baked into the electoral college.

I think the distortion you're seeing is that of the Senate, which is heavily biased toward smaller states. The numbers for the Electoral College come from the number of Senate and House seats; the Senate is biased toward smaller states and the House toward large ones, but I think the distortion to the Senate is greater.

A lot of the Constitutional compromises are really fascinating, but I think the Congress compromise is my favorite. The fears and desires of the founders were so variable, all the way from everyone should vote to why can't we make a monarchy only this time include OUR friends - and that's not even counting the opinions of the people ineligible to participate and vote!
posted by Deoridhe at 5:10 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

They may have been Scott Baio.

Maybe Trump's been reading the Bob Loblaw Law Blog.
posted by cyclopticgaze at 5:11 PM on September 17, 2016 [30 favorites]

Hey, if anyone in Chicago is looking for something to do, they're apparently bussing people from Chicago to the Quad Cities, right on the Iowa/ Illinois border. We're doing super, super easy canvassing right now: we're signing supporters up to vote early, so we can make sure that they don't flake out and forget to vote. You will be talking to very few people who aren't Hillary supporters, and even the non-supporters will likely be polite, because this is Iowa.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:12 PM on September 17, 2016 [18 favorites]

> I must admit that Hillary never severing ties with Bill was on my list of negatives regarding her as a candidate, that it seemed to be more of her need for him and his connections as a practical matter than anything emotional or love-based (and that may just be 'bad optics'), and yet in the long run, a lot of her lingering image problems (like seeming less liberal than she really is) are Bill-based.

People are complicated. Women are in fact people, therefore they can be complicated and nuanced. People stay with partners who have done much worse, people divorce partners for smaller disagreements or violations of trust. They are a couple who have decided to support each other and continue to remain as such through difficult times. They are both passionate and committed people, otherwise why remain in the spotlight when they could retreat with their millions?

Which goes back to one of my original points: if Hillary is this evil mastermind, bent on gaining power and influence, then why in the fucking world is she attempting to run for president? Twice? That is the most public and scrutinized position. We are finally seeing all the media and press (and now the NY Times has their own "corrupt Donald" story, so they can have a horse in the race along with Washington Posts Trump Foundation research) pick apart the life of a man who is in fact running entirely for personal gain, who has genuinely cheated the system, but somehow managed to stay out of the spotlight.

Well, it must be that she is a power hungry bitch who thinks she must gain the highest seat in office as she is obviously too dumb to realize the real way to wield power and influence is through lobbyists, special interest groups, and tactics like the Koch brothers and Roger Ailes have been using for the last 16 years or so. Not that maybe she is genuinely seeing it as the place for her to have the position to serve the nation and help solve the problems she wants to help solve.

Things like the "why didn't she divorce Bill" bullshit just remind me how as a society it is so hard to accept women having the same levels of nuance, complexity, and agency as men. The majority of the press can't even acknowledge that in this situation that Donald is the power hungry, single minded, narcissist with all the nuance of a bowling ball attempting to attain personal glory (while heavily influenced by the special interests around him), while Hillary is the self directed, intelligent, and complex person with the desire to make the world better.
posted by mrzarquon at 5:17 PM on September 17, 2016 [74 favorites]

Yes Deoridhe, it's the Senate seats (and corresponding EC votes) that are skewed toward the smaller states. The House seats are proportionate to population. I just find it interesting that the small states seem to lean toward the Republicans, while larger states lean Democratic (with obvious exceptions). The Senate representation is what it is, for better or worse.
posted by Surely This at 5:17 PM on September 17, 2016

even the non-supporters will likely be polite, because this is Iowa.

*lyrics to Iowa Stubborn now floating through my mind*
posted by hippybear at 5:17 PM on September 17, 2016

I just want to say that I find it really gross when people try to shame Hillary Clinton for sticking with her marriage to Bill. Yes, he's been a jerk, and may continue to be a jerk. But her marriage is her business, and if she choses to stay with him it's her right to do so.
posted by Surely This at 5:21 PM on September 17, 2016 [51 favorites]

Here's the data on ratio of population to electors, House seats, and Senate seats. The House is really idiosyncratic because in the 1-6 seat range there can be a really big or really small remainder.
posted by one_bean at 5:23 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

"The most viable 3rd party run in this country's history was when a former President, pissed that his successor had turned his back on a progressive agenda and was in the pocket of wall street, ran against his party ... in 1912,"

Naw, 1860, because the third party won.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:24 PM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

1860, because the third party won.

And then immediately became one of the duopoly.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:28 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Naw, 1860, because the third party won.

Except that there was no Whig candidate in 1860, and there hadn't been one since 1852

And also that the Whigs largely just turned into the Republicans and then we duopolied again

I feel bad because that was a very good line, but pedants gonna pedant
posted by saturday_morning at 5:30 PM on September 17, 2016 [13 favorites]

Yeah but pretty soon after 1860, they really did run out of evens.
posted by zachlipton at 5:34 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

I guess Conway lost control because Trump is back to being Twitter Trump. Lashing out at everything and anyone.
posted by Talez at 5:36 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Twitter for iPhone in the streets, Twitter for Android in the sheets
posted by saturday_morning at 5:38 PM on September 17, 2016 [40 favorites]

Maybe Twitter is right and Conway is quitting.
posted by asteria at 5:39 PM on September 17, 2016

I must admit that Hillary never severing ties with Bill was on my list of negatives regarding her as a candidate, that it seemed to be more of her need for him and his connections as a practical matter than anything emotional or love-based

You know, maybe she knew the whole time and didn't give a fuck. A marriage is not always just the sum total of two people's sexual interactions. There's such things as open marriages, swingers, wives (or husbands) that just look the other way, or hell, maybe he told her all about it and she liked hearing about his fooling around because that's what got them going together. We shouldn't care or even stoop to asking, because as the parade of disgraced Republicans who wasted all our lives trying to impeach when they were doing the same or far worse at the exact same time should've showed us, it is and was never relevant to his/her ability to lead the government.

But this is a puritanical country, so if she knew and didn't care, she could've never admitted that either without giving the press more ammo. And even if she only stayed with him for advancement, how is that a negative for her ability to do the job? Actually no, don't answer that because it didn't matter in 1996, and it sure as fuck doesn't matter 20 years later.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:40 PM on September 17, 2016 [43 favorites]

Bill Maher going up against Kellyanne Conway.

It starts off rather civil and cordial and then...
posted by Talez at 5:40 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

New PA poll has Clinton up 8 points with likely voters. And the dates are 9/12-16, so after the health scare.

JCPL improved?
posted by chris24 at 5:42 PM on September 17, 2016 [29 favorites]

Ack! Sorry to gov-splain that, Surely This.

I thought the smaller-population states tended Republican because of the population density effect, where people in a densely populated area tend to be Democrats while people in sparsely populated areas tend to be Republican. A lot of the Republican states have fewer residents but are large size-wise. Ever since my mom told me she went from Republican to Democrat after moving from the country to the city, I've wondered if there isn't something in how cheek-and-jowl with other people tends to lead to a more Democratic mindset but so far as I know no one has done that sort of expanded, longitudinal research on political changes (and a lot of the research done has compared between generations instead of following within one, with the attendant flaws cross-sectional studies bring). I'd love to see some solid research, but I've no idea who would fund it.

but pedants gonna pedant

I love you all so much.
posted by Deoridhe at 5:42 PM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

So The Old Grey Lady FINALLY gets around to reporting on the Big Lie of Dishonest Donald as "Self Made Man"... only 29 years after he made it the basis for his expertise in his first ghost-written book... and they publish it on Saturday when the least people are following the news (MAYBE it'll be in the dead tree Sunday edition, but I have my doubts). Then TwitterTrump threatens to sue over it, bringing it to the attention of The Entire Internet. That is the very definition of "own goal" to me.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:43 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Good for Conway if she quits. I have to admit for feeling bad for the nice person buried somewhere underneath all the sophistry and partisanship.

No, she's Jennifer Barkley. She gets paid nearly seven figures for a few weeks work and she knows what she's doing.
posted by Talez at 5:43 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

I have to chime in on the debate over whether Bill and Hillary Clinton should have split. Firstly, it's none of my business. If I were a friend she trusted, I'd certainly have listened to her if she wanted to discuss the situation, but this decision had to be hers.

Secondly, though, I want to say that Women's Liberation was fought in order to give all women the right to make decisions such as this one for themselves. That someone chooses a path other than what I might have chosen is not something I have any right to judge. I hope she made the right choice for herself and her family, and that's all I have the right to do. Thankfully. A lot of women went through bad times and still do in order for U.S. women to have these rights.
posted by Silverstone at 5:47 PM on September 17, 2016 [21 favorites]

The new Times story is an A1 Sunday feature, assuming aliens don't invade in the next couple of hours.
posted by zachlipton at 5:47 PM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

Money comes and goes; lost dignity is forever.

There's always another sucker who wants to run for office.
posted by Talez at 5:48 PM on September 17, 2016

If you are unwilling to vote for Hillary because she is a secretive, warmongering, cryptofascist then chances are good that your privilege insulates yourself from the negative consequences of a potential Trump presidency.

It's perfectly possible to vote for Clinton, and call her those things at the same time. And agitate for her to adopt policies of one's own choosing after she's elected. And continue to badger her continuously throughout her administration(s) until she moves sufficiently in a direction of one's liking.

Both liberals and leftists are too short-sighted. Leftists who vote for Clinton aren't betraying some revolution. Liberals who get leftists to vote for Clinton haven't achieved some sort of kumbaya reconciliation. It's in the nature of Americans to hang together instead of hanging separately, defeating Trump is only the first step. There will be plenty of time to sort out these grievances afterwards.

Does no one remember the concept of a united front?
posted by Apocryphon at 5:48 PM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

If you'll all open your hymnal to 7 or 12 election threads ago, you'd know that a biography of Hillary reveals that she was actually very upset about Bill's affair with Monica Lewinsky, and she made him explain what he had done to Chelsea.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:50 PM on September 17, 2016 [48 favorites]

I remember the United Front of Judea, that bunch of splitters.
posted by saturday_morning at 5:50 PM on September 17, 2016 [10 favorites]

If his lawyers told him they wanted to sue for it, those may not have been lawyers.

Dr. Bornstein, Attorney at Law
posted by EarBucket at 5:52 PM on September 17, 2016 [15 favorites]

7 or 12 election threads ago only takes us back to May 2016.
posted by hippybear at 5:52 PM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

Based on the decreasing length of time between the election threads, I conjecture that the number of election threads will approach infinity as we get closer to November, ensuring the singularity, or Roko's Basilisk, probably.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:54 PM on September 17, 2016 [24 favorites]

if you want to see the future of Metafilter, imagine an election thread stamping on the front page... forever

also a yearly cat scan thread
posted by delfin at 5:58 PM on September 17, 2016 [25 favorites]

If you'll all open your hymnal to 7 or 12 election threads ago, you'd know that a biography of Hillary reveals that she was actually very upset about Bill's affair with Monica Lewinsky, and she made him explain what he had done to Chelsea.

Also not relevant to the job of President, same as if she was in the room watching.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:58 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

Bicker in private (or the primaries) and then once the decision has been made get behind the nominee.

That's what a united front looks but instead we get endless hit pieces from erstwhile allies talking about how Clinton is an awful candidate long after anyone else has been eliminated.

Needless to say people have gotten tired of it.

Know why the Republicans have been strong despite their demographic challenges? They punish people in the primaries and then dutifully support the candidate despite those reservations.
posted by vuron at 6:01 PM on September 17, 2016 [21 favorites]

Hillary Clinton ≠ Bill Clinton

She's her own completely separate person. Bill's actions have literally nothing whatsoever to do with her.

It's not the 18th century anymore. Couverture no longer exists. Stop subsuming women's identities within their husbands'.
posted by Sara C. at 6:05 PM on September 17, 2016 [34 favorites]

JCPL improved?

The JCPL has been moderate since yesterday. I don't know why. The acceptance stage of grief? Shock rendering me numb and unable to process? So the PA result isn't moving the needle.
posted by Justinian at 6:06 PM on September 17, 2016 [16 favorites]

Know why the Republicans have been strong despite their demographic challenges? They punish people in the primaries and then dutifully support the candidate despite those reservations.

This. They turn out and vote, come hell or high water, for that R. The Tea Party managed to unseat Eric god damned Cantor. The sitting House Majority Leader and they managed to primary him out of Congress on a rail and then, the R+10 electorate happily turned out to vote R despite Dave Brat being quite literally batshit crazy.
posted by Talez at 6:07 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Although Trump is clearly an aberration who is severely unqualified to do the job that Republicans of all stripes are jumping ship.
posted by Talez at 6:08 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

A t-shirt is not sufficient for my I SURVIVED THE METAFILTER 2016 ELECTION THREADS memorabilia. I want a plaque for making it through these threads. A gold and mahogany plaque. With the number of favorites I have given and received in these threads inscribed upon it.

Did you perhaps hear the distant sound of harpy screeching, sometime around 11 am PST? That was me, reacting to reading round 2049401 of the proscribed topic of relitigating the primaries. I'll take chicken littling over that, tbh. That PA poll makes me feel better though.
posted by yasaman at 6:11 PM on September 17, 2016 [22 favorites]

They say they are jumping ship but let's be honest most of those Johnson supporters are lying because if their shame of Trump. Same with a lot of green party supporters.
posted by vuron at 6:12 PM on September 17, 2016

And even if she only stayed with him for advancement, how is that a negative for her ability to do the job?

I regret that I have but one favorite to give, T.D. Strange. I've been trying to find a way to say just that.
posted by kythuen at 6:15 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump in historically red Colorado Springs at an airplane hangar. I am sitting approx. six miles west of this event.

DJT:
- There was a bomb in New York today. We've got to be tough.
- Trump up 4 points in CO. Reuters predicting FL win. Up in Ohio and NC. LA Times has him up 4 points. He thinks they're going to win.
- "It's a movement."
- Petty politicians don't have a clue.
- Plan can be summed up in three words: Jobs, Jobs, Jobs. Reducing "job-killing regulations." Good jobs sucked away. Will renegotiate bad trade deals.
- Journalists are terrible!
- Repeal/replace obamacare. (Crowd cheers.) You only hit deductibles if you're in for a "long, slow, tragic death." [I am groaning at how false this is.]
- End common core.
- Build a wall! (Crowd goes nuts.)
posted by mochapickle at 6:18 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

A t-shirt is not sufficient for my I SURVIVED THE METAFILTER 2016 ELECTION THREADS memorabilia. I want a plaque for making it through these threads. A gold and mahogany plaque. With the number of favorites I have given and received in these threads inscribed upon it.

Did you perhaps hear the distant sound of harpy screeching, sometime around 11 am PST? That was me, reacting to reading round 2049401 of the proscribed topic of relitigating the primaries. I'll take chicken littling over that, tbh.

You do realize that there are many, many FPPs in a week and you aren't required to participate in or even read any of the election threads?
posted by hippybear at 6:20 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

What the fuck? Trump just walked off the plane to the CO crowd, "somebody told me a bomb went off in New York. We're gonna have to get tough". Then goes on like nothing ever happened.

What in the fucking fuck?!?
posted by Talez at 6:22 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

For fuck's sake. I just saw a couple of "what was that loud explosion in Chelsea?" tweets, and Trump has already decided it's a bomb?

There was an explosion in Chelsea. It is not necessarily a bomb. We will know more at some point in the future. Trump is a fucking menace.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:23 PM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

The pipe bomb in question didn't cause any injuries, and happened in New Jersey, not New York.

Not that Trump knows the difference.
posted by hippybear at 6:24 PM on September 17, 2016

DJT:
- Mexico is going to pay for it.
- Take down isis.
- Rebuild military.
- Remember: "Peace through strength." "America First! You never hear that anymore." (USA USA USA)
- Mentions HRC and crowd starts to howl and boo and now LOCK HER UP.
- Even if you're sick and can't get out of bed, vote.
- Trump hates cursing! He has LEARNED.
- Just saw a mosquito! Hates them! (We don't have mosquitos in Sept. in Colorado, I have no idea.)
- Endorsement from 160 top military! And border control!
- Earlier today spent time with victims of "illegal immigrant violence." Their govt failed them. Received endorsement of Fraternal Order of Police.
posted by mochapickle at 6:24 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

The pipe bomb in question didn't cause any injuries, and happened in New Jersey, not New York.

No, this is another explosion at 23rd and 6th.
posted by chris24 at 6:24 PM on September 17, 2016

Yeah, it was weird. He waltzed off the plane, and the bomb thing was the first thing he said, and it was super casual.

DJT:
- Reciting litany of people who have been shot. "We must stand with our police."
posted by mochapickle at 6:25 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

No, there's definitely something going on in NYC. A building blew up on 23rd and 6th in Manhattan. Initial reports were that it was an IED, but initial reports are often wrong. Authorities are saying they don't know the cause.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:26 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, 'cause what we really need is a president who reacts to an accident/attack/incident/disaster is for him to repeat the first scary thing he heard on Twitter.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:26 PM on September 17, 2016 [16 favorites]

A building blew up on 23rd and 6th in Manhattan.

I'm reading that a possible IED went off in a dumpster/trash can. Not that a building blew up.
posted by chris24 at 6:26 PM on September 17, 2016

No, this is another explosion at 23rd and 6th.

Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo is tweeting about this - it happened across the street from his apartment, although he is not there. He says it's a home for the blind. https://twitter.com/joshtpm
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:27 PM on September 17, 2016

Wouldn't the natural first reaction be that it's probably a gas leak or something?
posted by Justinian at 6:27 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump is a lying liar?

Oh well I guess we can trust the media to call him out...
posted by vuron at 6:27 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

DJT:
- Every place we go we have crowds like this! "There's something special going on. We're gonna take back the White House. We're gonna take back our country." (USA USA USA)
- Is there any place more fun to be at a Trump rally? There's a lot of love!
- I will never, ever let you down. Our support comes from all walks of life. "Young and old, rich or poor, black, white, hispanics!" But we're all americans!
- Hillary Clinton (Booooooooo!)
posted by mochapickle at 6:28 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Obviously it's time once again to refer to the Breaking News Consumer's Handbook.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:29 PM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

DJT:
- She's slandering you as deplorable (BOOOOOO!) and irredeemable! But you are hard working patriots!
- Her comments were angry! The same sense of "arrogance and entitlement" that allowed abuse as secretary of state.
- 33,000 emails (LOCK HER UP!) Yoga and the wedding!
posted by mochapickle at 6:30 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

what we really need is a president who reacts to an accident/attack/incident/disaster is for him to repeat the first scary thing he heard on Twitter.
Sounds like a perfect Internet Age President to me...

DJT:
- I will never, ever let you down.
AND a Rick Roll.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:30 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

Well, somebody had to do it.


Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert.

A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
posted by adam hominem at 6:30 PM on September 17, 2016 [13 favorites]

You guys, this #WomenTogether event I was at today was really fantastic. There were over 400 attendees--reportedly more than at similar events in NYC and Chicago--and represented woman of all ages, colors, and backgrounds from all over the state (plus a few men in support, or working on behalf of progressive women candidates). A handful had brought small children with them. Jess O'Connell, executive director of Emily's List (and Arizona native) was there, as well as a couple of people from HFA HQ in Brooklyn, and several women in public office at the city, state, and national levels. The Democratic Party is investing major resources in Arizona for the first time in many years, and the excitement is palpable.

I heard some amazing stories, talked to a bunch of cool people, learned about some messaging and organizing strategies and some new bits of Arizona political history, made a poster that is going to be used to decorate at Dem events in AZ over the next several weeks, and best of all, got to shout and weep after Gloria Steinem introduced Gabby Giffords as her hero, and Gabby said, "Speaking is difficult for me, but come January, I want to say these two words: ‘Madame President.'”

I also talked to Clinton's state campaign director, and we'll be working together to schedule some hands-on workshops on using social media. There was a speaker on the subject, and he was very engaging, but a lot of these women are not experienced but would like to be more active and use social media for a good cause. This is a tangible contribution I can make (as I like to say, all those years of farting around online--including on Metafilter--really paid off in the end), so that's exciting.

I am super fired up. We can do this if we just get out there and work hard, and don't let the crazy news get us down.
posted by Superplin at 6:30 PM on September 17, 2016 [70 favorites]

Reuters has "breaking news" at the top of their page calling it an explosive device.
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:32 PM on September 17, 2016

If Trump wins I wonder if Hillary is going to end up like Yulia Tymoshenko.
posted by Talez at 6:32 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm staying calm till the debates, which will unquestionably show Trump for the unhinged narcissist he is. He can't help it. He doesn't want to help it.

The only question is, will it matter.
posted by adam hominem at 6:33 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

DJT:
- She sold gov't favors and access.
- Obama and HRC created current chaos in middle east.
- 1.7 billion in cash! (Booooooo!) Who does this? Where are these people coming from?
- (Yours truly catches a scent of cheese and sulphur in the air to the east.)
- HRC's donors and advisors gave us NAFTA, the worst trade deal in the "history of the world."
- MYSTICAL PLANT BUILDER IN MEXICO
- TPP (BOOOOOOOO!)
posted by mochapickle at 6:34 PM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

mochapickle, I (at least I) come here to get away from that shit.

Thank you.
posted by adam hominem at 6:36 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

You do realize that there are many, many FPPs in a week and you aren't required to participate in or even read any of the election threads?

And my scrolling finger isn't broken, so I am perfectly capable of skimming past our more circular and repetitive arguments. That doesn't render them any less circular or repetitive. I didn't intend my comment to read as hostile so much as affectionately exasperated.

Anyway, has any enterprising journalist tried to find out who this mystery friend of Trump who builds plants/factories in Mexico is? Is he even real, or is he as mythical as Trump's black and Latino friends?
posted by yasaman at 6:37 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Would anonymous plant builder in Mexico have built plant in Mexico if the NAFTA deal Hillary had no part of never been signed?

Inquiring minds want to know if these hypothetical questions confirm Hillary to be the antichrist.
posted by vuron at 6:38 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Or the "hundreds" he claimed to have known who died on 9/11.
posted by spitbull at 6:38 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

DJT:
- AA stats (employment, education, 3K shot in Chicago) - What do you have to lose? I will fix it, I will fix it. (Colorado Springs is overwhelmingly lily white with only 6.3% African American.)
- I am spending MY money!
- We have to lift restrictions on energy. We are going to unlock billions in energy potential. We will be a rich country again, will lower taxes. It will be a beautiful thing to watch! Ford is moving small cars to Mexico, and this won't happen when I am elected President. We will charge them 35% tax on product and we will have a strong border. Politicians whpon't do it because they are controlled by special interests.
- We will stop China from stealing 2M jobs a year!
posted by mochapickle at 6:39 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Would anonymous plant builder in Mexico have built plant in Mexico if the NAFTA deal Hillary had no part of never been signed?

Hahahahahahaha. Before NAFTA the import tax on Mexican-built finished light autos was 2.5%.

It was going away far before NAFTA and would have continued even if NAFTA hadn't been ratified.
posted by Talez at 6:42 PM on September 17, 2016

Just heard on local radio news 25 relatively minor injuries in Chelsea explosion. Hope it stays that way.
posted by spitbull at 6:43 PM on September 17, 2016

DJT:
- School choice! Every disadvantaged child in America can have any school of their choice, to lift AA and hispanic children out of poverty. More poverty since Obama. We are going to protect jobs and schools and deliver safety.
- Earlier this week along with my daughter Ivanka (wooooo!) I also rolled out a plan to help mothers and families get affordable health care. Will save 30-35% reduction in tax bill. Millions of low income people will be removed from tax rolls entirely: "A great economy, a safe country and an honest gov't safe from corruption."
- We're going to reduce taxes "bigly." HRC will raise them (booooooo!)
- Litany of promises on infrastructure.
- American cars on our roads! American plans in our skies! American hands will rebuild this nation! American energy will power our country! American STEEL!
posted by mochapickle at 6:44 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

> In aggregate economic terms America was never any fairer than it is today,or any wealthier or more powerful. We have 5% unemployment with -- yes! -- rising incomes and markets. No draft. Improving air and water quality over 30-40 years. And vibrant wealthy cities with low crime rates. More people have health insurance than ever before too. And go to college.

You're describing an America that exists in your imagination, but it isn't the one most of us are living in. Maybe it describes your reality as an affluent professor at an elite university, and the day-to-day experience of the rest of just doesn't matter.

Do you really think the Fight For $15 movement consists of a bunch whiny privileged white frat boys motivated by misogyny? I think you should look that up and ask yourself a question or two.
posted by nangar at 6:44 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

DJT:
- One people, under one god, saluting ONE american flag!" (USA USA USA)
- We have to break with those failures. We don't win anymore!
- We are gonna treat our vets properly (BIG CHEER)
- Can you imagine Gen MacArthur or Patton saying "We can't beat ISIS." Patton would rip your heart out. They would be spinning in their graves. I don't want to tell how I'm going to beat the enemy. (COS is a huge military town.)
- "I will give you good results, don't worry how I get there!"
posted by mochapickle at 6:46 PM on September 17, 2016 [11 favorites]

So after all that we've been through in 2016, we finally have it: a literal, actual dumpster fire.
posted by saturday_morning at 6:48 PM on September 17, 2016 [37 favorites]

Just because things might be better doesn't mean they are getting worse. America can have problems and not be in decline
posted by humanfont at 6:48 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

DJT:
- I am so much better at what Robert Gates is doing.
- "The blood, the death." 16 trillion dollars and the lives we have lost. We are dealing with stupid and incompetent people.
- "I don't like critics. I like the people who get it done and get it done right."
- "We will make America safe again, wealthy again, strong again, great again."
posted by mochapickle at 6:50 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Thirty-five seconds of waving to the crowd and back on the plane! (People lined up for this HOURS ago.)
posted by mochapickle at 6:51 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

no nangar, quite the contrary. But for simple counterpoint Trump opposes a rise in minimum wage and is portrayed as a candidate who appeals to struggling workers.

I'm not saying everything is great. But we are far from falling apart or from things being nearly as bad as they have more than once been in the 20th century in economic terms. Trump's pitch is that things are collapsing for workers. The objective truth is a lot more complicated than that, with things getting better (there is now upward wage pressure without inflation that is driving the fight for $15 because it's got tailwinds) in recent years but a lot of serious threats (automation especially) gathering steam.

When was the better time for working class people in modern American history, in the aggregate, meaning including workers of color?

And to address the ad hominem, yes I am a professor it's true. And I am best known for work on white working-class culture in the rural south. I still spend a good deal of time with my adoptive family and communities there (and even more of my time in deeply oppressed Native American communities) and do not at all feel I am detached from knowledge about poverty or struggle.

I simply dispute that we are in a fallen condition from a golden age.
posted by spitbull at 6:53 PM on September 17, 2016 [28 favorites]

- I am spending MY money!
yes, it must be repeated over and over and over and over...
Trump Has Pocketed Nearly 8 Million Dollars Of Donor Money While Running For President

- "I will give you good results, don't worry how I get there!"
Trump Definition of "Good Results" includes Endless War, Economic Collapse, World Pariah Status, Billions Pocketed by Trump Family

- We are dealing with stupid and incompetent people.
TRUMP'S MIRROR.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:53 PM on September 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

23rd Street Explosion: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

In a trashcan, not a dumpster, as per the earlier NJ bomb.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:56 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

James Traficant

That's not hair...Dear Lord, THAT'S NOT HAIR!
posted by kewb at 6:58 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also I have no idea where you came up with "whiny frat boys" nangar, from anything I have written. I'm talking about the white men most often represented as the archetype of "working class" voters allowing a conflation of class and race that belies the diverse (and more female) character of the contemporary working classes as if we didn't just go through an entire generation of globalization and deinduatrializaion.
posted by spitbull at 6:58 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

totally superfluous, appearance-based comment...

On this subject, she was really pulling off the Galactic President look just now when she spoke to the Congressional Black Caucus!
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 6:59 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm still hung up on the thing about yoga and a wedding in Trump's speech? What's that about?
posted by suelac at 7:00 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

The reality is that by most measures the average American is extremely prosperous in comparison to virtually every other time period in US history.

The question mark is whether their should be greater equity in terms of wealth creation but there really hasn't been a period in which prosperity has been evenly divided for a sustained period of time.

The post WW2 economic boon was very good for the white middle class but arguably less so for other population groups.

So while there has been extreme concentrations of wealth in the last 40 years it's not entirely clear that we should expect anything different under the current economic paradigm because Capitalism is great for wealth creation but shitty at generating equitable wealth distribution.
posted by vuron at 7:02 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm still hung up on the thing about yoga and a wedding in Trump's speech? What's that about?

Trump says HRC says the missing emails were personal. He likes to express bafflement at how 33K emails could be about yoga and Chelsea's wedding, suggesting that HRC is a lying liar who lies.
posted by mochapickle at 7:02 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Some interesting insinuation in Trump's attack tonight on former Sec of Defense Robert Gates. #TrumpsMirror

Trump: "we had a clown today, an absolute clown, Robert Gates...he's a nasty guy, probably has a problem we don't know about"
posted by chris24 at 7:05 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm still hung up on the thing about yoga and a wedding in Trump's speech? What's that about?

Without the context, I'm guessing he's picked up on evangelical opposition to yoga classes as spreading a false religion.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:06 PM on September 17, 2016

> America First! You never hear that anymore.

Fuck, Donald, lately it seems like I never hear anything but.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 7:08 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Those may not have been lawyers. They may have been Scott Baio.

Hmmm... well, he does skew younger.
posted by rokusan at 7:08 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Be warned, this is depressing.

For the last 40 years, the more charming/likeable Presidential candidate won the election.

Carter beat Ford
Reagan beat Carter
Reagan beat Mondale
Bush beat Dukakis
Clinton beat Bush
Clinton beat Dole
Dubya "beat" Gore (yeah, I know)
Dubya beat Kerry
Obama beat McCain
Obama beat Romney

How can this be a coincidence? Ten elections in a row where the warmer/more likeable/more charming candidate won! That's not a coincidence. That's a pattern.
posted by Beholder at 7:09 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

For the last 40 years, the more charming/likeable Presidential candidate won the election.

Personally, I find it reassuring. YMMV.
posted by chris24 at 7:10 PM on September 17, 2016 [27 favorites]

Dukakis is arguably much more charming than Bush senior it's just that Dukakis looked stupid in a tank ohh and rampant racism.
posted by vuron at 7:12 PM on September 17, 2016 [13 favorites]

I'm still hung up on the thing about yoga and a wedding in Trump's speech? What's that about?

Early during the e-mail server controversy, either Clinton or someone in her camp (I forget) said that all of the whatever-thousand missing e-mails were personal, things like yoga appointments and [Chelsea-related] wedding plans and none were State or Foundation-related.

Since that turned out to be not completely accurate (though not quite flamingly false, either), it's sometimes used by anti-Hillary types as shorthand for a transparently-false defense or excuse.

(From Trump, often without any sense of irony, yeah.)
posted by rokusan at 7:12 PM on September 17, 2016

The more charming/likeable Presidential candidate won the election...

Like chris24 says, right now there are two camps very certain that their own candidate is far more charming and likeable than the other, that inhuman monster. I suspect that's how it was before every other election, too, though maybe with a little less vitriol most of the time.

I say we should also adjust for hindsight, and the fact that which famous people (that we have never met) we consider "likeable" or not comes, necessarily, through a pretty twisted media lens.

In other words, in a parallel universe, Dukakis may have been eventually remembered as a charmer, himself. Who really knows?
posted by rokusan at 7:15 PM on September 17, 2016 [8 favorites]

On this subject, she was really pulling off the Galactic President look...

But she only has one head?
Edit: Oh you mean the shiny suit.
posted by rokusan at 7:18 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Look at it this way: in all but the two most recent elections the white man won.
posted by spitbull at 7:19 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

For the last 40 years, the more charming/likeable Presidential candidate won the election.
I will NEVER trust the judgment of anyone who thinks Donald Trump is in ANY way "charming/likeable", but then that kind of rampant idiocy/gullibility is what has done serious damage to this nation well before the Trump Campaign began. But then, wasn't the image he was TRYING to project on "The Apprentice" the OPPOSITE of "charming/likeable"???
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:20 PM on September 17, 2016 [13 favorites]

Oh, found the actual comments that DJT said as soon as he got off the plane (thanks, WaPo!):

"I must tell you that just before I got off the plane, a bomb went off in New York and nobody knows exactly what's going on... But boy, we are living in a time -- we better get very tough, folks. We better get very, very tough. We'll find out. It's a terrible thing that's going on in our world, in our country and we are going to get tough and smart and vigilant. ... We'll see what it is. We'll see what it is."

posted by mochapickle at 7:21 PM on September 17, 2016

Katy Tur is posting philosophically about the tight timeline involved in Trump knowing about the bomb going off.
posted by Talez at 7:24 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump just called early reports of an explosion in New York a "bomb." No confirmation of that yet. "We've got to get very tough," he says
From that statement The Reichstag Fire 1933 came to my mind
Is Trump looking for a similar Reichstag Fire event?
posted by robbyrobs at 7:25 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

But racism and sexism and religious bigotry are totes adorable.

I would totally have some beers and kill some exotic game with Trump and his sons.

On the other hand Hillary doesn't dress in a feminine enough manner and she should totally smile more. And did she really call most Republicans deplorable?
posted by vuron at 7:25 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

Early during the e-mail server controversy, either Clinton or someone in her camp (I forget) said that all of the whatever-thousand missing e-mails were personal, things like yoga appointments and [Chelsea-related] wedding plans and none were State or Foundation-related.

Since that turned out to be not completely accurate (though not quite flamingly false, either), it's sometimes used by anti-Hillary types as shorthand for a transparently-false defense or excuse.

In what way is that inaccurate? After she had turned over her work-related email to the State Department archives, two years after leaving office Clinton directed her IT service that she only wanted to retain her personal email archives for 60 days. No one has a right to peruse her personal email. Not Republicans, not Donald Trump, not the press and not you.
posted by JackFlash at 7:26 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump just called early reports of an explosion in New York a "bomb." No confirmation of that yet.

Do we expect precision from this guy?

"Sir, what do you want to do about the situation in Whateverministan?"
"I'll tell you what, you can't throw too many bombs at Whateverministan."
(bombs away, world explodes)
"No, no, I said you *can't* throw too many bombs at Whateverministan!"
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:27 PM on September 17, 2016

Come now not every domestic terrorist has links to Trump just most of them.
posted by vuron at 7:28 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Presser about to start in Chelsea. Looking for a link...
posted by mochapickle at 7:35 PM on September 17, 2016

Shock rendering me numb and unable to process?

Oh, I think you spelled "Scotch" wrong.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:36 PM on September 17, 2016 [11 favorites]

Assuming it's the reported bomb in a trash can that's been going around, when it comes to dumb places to put a bomb assuming you want to maximize your efficiency, in the middle of what is basically a poor man's blast containment vessel has got to make you one of the dumbest terrorists.

I can't wait to see the CCTV on this one. I'm putting twenty on white guy.
posted by Talez at 7:37 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Oh, I think you spelled "Scotch" wrong.

Dammit, I always forget.

Can someone add "[Begin drinking now]" to every election thread? It makes everything so much easier to swallow.
posted by rokusan at 7:43 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

Someone above was asking for a nice roundup of "why Hillary Clinton is awesome and also not the anti-christ" link for sharing with family members/doubters who might be amenable to listening; A disturbing history of all the sexism Hillary Clinton has endured — and why I stopped buying into it is link-heavy and covers her full career. A single, sharp example is a tweet pointing out post-DNC coverage, in which several major newspapers announce Hillary winning the candidacy yet show pictures of Bill.

For the Bernie supporters who are suspicious, there's Because Hillary Listens (And now I do too) on tumblr, also heavy with links (although not as much as that first article, wow) including to her policies pages.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:43 PM on September 17, 2016 [55 favorites]

Can you imagine Gen MacArthur or Patton saying 'We can't beat ISIS.'

Well, MacArthur almost started World War III with China, and Patton wanted to start World War III by joining up with the Nazis to fight the Soviet Union, so no.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:43 PM on September 17, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trump Definition of "Good Results" includes Endless War, Economic Collapse, World Pariah Status, Billions Pocketed by Trump Family

Oh, my. I mean, the family name is different, but we have been here before, haven't we.
posted by rokusan at 7:44 PM on September 17, 2016

Also useful:

All the Terrible Things Hillary Clinton Has Done in One Big List.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:47 PM on September 17, 2016 [13 favorites]

Plus ça change Rokusan
posted by vuron at 7:47 PM on September 17, 2016

All the Terrible Things Hillary Clinton Has Done in One Big List.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:47 PM on September 17 [1 favorite +] [!]

Wait, is #57 true? I don't care about the Vince Foster stuff, but some things are beyond the pale.
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:54 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

The new Times story is an A1 Sunday feature, assuming aliens don't invade in the next couple of hours.

Let me just amend that with the benefit of hindsight: Or someone sets off a bomb in Chelsea.
posted by zachlipton at 7:56 PM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

"I'm not sitting here some little woman standing by my man like Tammy Wynette." (1992)
posted by chris24 at 7:56 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Assuming it's the reported bomb in a trash can that's been going around, when it comes to dumb places to put a bomb assuming you want to maximize your efficiency, in the middle of what is basically a poor man's blast containment vessel has got to make you one of the dumbest terrorists.

Also it's a desolate corner obstructed by scaffolding. Literally the dumbest place to terrorize.

I'm betting on idiots.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:56 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

Newspaper clipping re: the enraged Ms. Wynette.
posted by mochapickle at 7:57 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

America loves women like Hillary Clinton–as long as they’re not asking for a promotion:

Public opinion of Clinton has followed a fixed pattern throughout her career. Her public approval plummets whenever she applies for a new position. Then it soars when she gets the job. The wild difference between the way we talk about Clinton when she campaigns and the way we talk about her when she’s in office can’t be explained as ordinary political mud-slinging. Rather, the predictable swings of public opinion reveal Americans’ continued prejudice against women caught in the act of asking for power.

posted by kirkaracha at 7:58 PM on September 17, 2016 [11 favorites]

This is delayed because I was murdering super mutants, but about the US and two parties:

Our system is a first past the post system with no elements of proportional representation.

Yeah, but this isn't baked into the Constitution. There's nothing about districting -- or even having districts -- in the Constitution. It would be constitutional for CA to elect its fifty-whatever Representatives at-large. I don't think anyone has ever tried, but you could probably run the elections with some sort of party list. Without any constitutional changes, just statutory, and not necessarily even federal statutes.

In both Britain and Canada there are more than two significant parties, although almost any given seat has only two if not fewer.

That's not really true in Canada -- part of how Harper won was that there are lots of districts with a 60\% left vote that went 30 Liberal, 30 NDP, 40 Fucking Tory Bastards. Then they went and did it again the next election, keeping Harper and his dead eyes in office.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:59 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Literally the dumbest place to terrorize.

It's a smart place to terrorize if what you want to do is plant terror and not have a lot of casualties.

Terrorism isn't about how many people you kill, it's about how many people you frighten into changing their way of life out of fear.
posted by hippybear at 8:02 PM on September 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

Gary Johnson today at a rally in Seattle:

No minimum wage
No income tax, to be replaced with a national sales tax (great for millionaires)
Abolish departments of Education, Homeland Security, Commerce, and Housing and Urban Development. (That's more that three -- oops!)
Block grants to states to replace Medicaid (Conservatives will love their new discretionary slush fund)
Raising the Social Security retirement age to 72
Climate change is real but government should do nothing about it
Balanced budget within 100 days. Asked how, without taking Medicaid from the poor, he says maybe is means no cellphones. (What?)
posted by JackFlash at 8:03 PM on September 17, 2016 [13 favorites]

Terrorism isn't about how many people you kill, it's about how many people you frighten into changing their way of life out of fear.

I know I'm going to stop hanging out at deserted construction sites.
posted by Justinian at 8:05 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

What I honestly want to know: Is there any way I can get 10 bucks on "James O'Keefe's attempt at a Reichstag Fire for Trump"?
posted by Talez at 8:05 PM on September 17, 2016 [19 favorites]

Gary Johnson today at a rally in Seattle:

I can see why he's drawing the BoB crowd. He and Bernie are two of a kind!
posted by asteria at 8:06 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

it's about how many people you frighten into changing their way of life out of fear.

Soledad O'Brien: Everyone is fine. There's zero panic. Anyone reporting otherwise is full of it. I live here.

Mark Harris: New Yorkers on the actual scene of the explosion on West 23rd St. are more chill about it than Trump is in Colorado.

This is NYC, nobody's freaking and nobody's changing their way of life.
posted by chris24 at 8:07 PM on September 17, 2016 [34 favorites]

I kinda would like to see Gary at the debates, with those talking points. How would Trump counter it?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:10 PM on September 17, 2016

He wouldn't, he'd call Johnson a loser with no chance who shouldn't even be at the debates.
posted by Justinian at 8:11 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

I don't have the same idea of charming/likeable as Beholder. Carter was by most accounts a genuine, decent, straight talking guy and Reagan was fifth rate Hollywood phoney, promising to kick Iran's ass if they didn't give the hostages back. He was the guy who first demonstrated, on a national scale, how far you can get by wanking the macho power fantasies of the center-right. Trip imp is just digging a little deeper.
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:11 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Good to see Johnson is a Lolbertarian like so many others. Free market is life, free market is love. You should be able to sell yourself into serfdom, etc.
posted by vuron at 8:12 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh, great.

NYPD Special Ops Verified account
‏@NYPDSpecialops
A possible secondary device has been located @ 27th Street, 6th - 7th Avenues. #NYPD nvestigations are ongoing. Avoid the area @NYPD13Pct
posted by stolyarova at 8:12 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Repeal/replace obamacare. (Crowd cheers.) You only hit deductibles if you're in for a "long, slow, tragic death."

So the ironic thing here is that my family first went on Obamacare because my husband's employee provided plan had a $10,000 deductible before it paid for a cent. My current ACA plan has a $1000 deductible that we met in a couple months. (It sucks in other ways, but starting next month I'll be paying 3 times as much for a new employee's plan.)
posted by threeturtles at 8:13 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

We were having dinner on 6th Avenue and 17th Street. Just got home to the Upper West Side after a VERY long walk home.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:16 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm hoping that no one is seriously injured, and part of me is hoping if this is actually found to be done by someone, it's an alt-right idiot.
posted by mrzarquon at 8:16 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Is there any way I can get 10 bucks on "James O'Keefe's attempt at a Reichstag Fire for Trump"?

So the Trumpian version of the Reichstag Fire would literally be a dumpster explosion then?
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 8:17 PM on September 17, 2016 [11 favorites]

Part of me is hoping that no one is seriously injured, and if this is actually found to be done by someone, its an alt-right idiot.

Fire department had them all green which was basically minimal injuries.
posted by Talez at 8:18 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Seattle Times on Johnson's weird cell phone/Medicaid connection:

Pressed by reporters on how he would cut so much, specifically from Medicaid, without taking away health care from people, Johnson was at a loss for specifics.

“Well, if it means not having cellphones,” he said. “There’s things that can be done that, in my opinion, nobody’s without and you can still deliver those essential services.”

Is he wanting to dissolve SafeLink, the gov't program that gives lifeline cell service to participants in programs like SSI and food stamps? Lots of Medicaid plans depend on SafeLink as a way of reaching their members for appointment reminders and preventative care. Preventative care and compliance in attending appointments (and the phone as a tool for self-direction) cut down on overall costs.
posted by mochapickle at 8:18 PM on September 17, 2016 [11 favorites]

Chelsea Presser - DeBlasio:
- None of the injured are likely to die
- Preliminary information shows no evidence of a terror connection or a connection to New Jersey
- There is no specific and credible threat in NYC from a terrorist organization
- Early indications this is an intentional act
- NYPD and all agencies are on full alert
posted by mochapickle at 8:22 PM on September 17, 2016

Chelsea Presser - DeBlasio:
- Second site at 27th b/w 6th and 7th Ave - has been cleared and is under investigation as well
posted by mochapickle at 8:24 PM on September 17, 2016

"Climate change is real but government should do nothing about it"

The market solves all problems! Everyone dying is a solution!

"Balanced budget within 100 days. Asked how, without taking Medicaid from the poor, he says maybe is means no cellphones. (What?)"

Probably referencing so-called Obamaphones, despite no part of the program originating with Obama (universal access goes back to Reagan and the cell part to Bush II), but it's a favorite conservative bogeyman, that poor people elected Obama so he'd give them free cell phones. It's technically not even tax funded, but funded by the universal service fee on your cell and landline bills, so cutting the program wouldn't free up discretionary funds.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:27 PM on September 17, 2016 [27 favorites]

I know I'm going to stop hanging out at deserted construction sites.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. This is the scene of the NYC explosion.
posted by hippybear at 8:30 PM on September 17, 2016

He wouldn't, he'd call Johnson a loser with no chance who shouldn't even be at the debates.

Hey, even a stopped clock...
posted by the marble index at 8:30 PM on September 17, 2016

I think the cell phone thing isn't about Obamaphones but actually more of "stop spending money on frivolous shit and you can afford healthcare". Which I'm pretty sure a cellphone is critical spending for most people these days.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 8:31 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Purported video of the explosion. Seems like it's leaked video of somebody (police?) watching surveillance tape.
posted by chris24 at 8:33 PM on September 17, 2016

Ah god, please don't increase security theater in New York. Please do not let the media turn this into "The Chelsea Bombing" or some shit and let Trump address it every 5 minutes for the rest of the campaign.
posted by windbox at 8:33 PM on September 17, 2016 [10 favorites]

"Climate change is real but government should do nothing about it"
I've long said that most Climate Change Deniers know it's real but consider the opportunities for profit from building high-altitude air-conditioned domes to be AWESOME. Finally, somebody is open and honest with that.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:35 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

actually more of "stop spending money on frivolous shit and you can afford healthcare"

Ah, classic "but they have flatscreen TVs!" glibertarianism. "Luxuries" are cheap, necessities are fucking expensive.
posted by holgate at 8:35 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

Johnson is, after all, a libertarian.
posted by hippybear at 8:37 PM on September 17, 2016

diBlasio says that the explosion looks like an intentional act but that there is no evidence at this point to link it to terrorism. Unless it's a piss poor attempt at an insurance scam what else could it be? Someone who just really hates dumpsters?
posted by Justinian at 8:37 PM on September 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Could be a small meth lab gone awry. Those are known to explode and are known to be hidden in all kinds of places.

I mean, the speculation. It could lead one to any conclusion.
posted by hippybear at 8:39 PM on September 17, 2016

So it's unrelated to NJ? Is today bomb a dumpster day?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:39 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

> diBlasio says that the explosion looks like an intentional act but that there is no evidence at this point to link it to terrorism. Unless it's a piss poor attempt at an insurance scam what else could it be? Someone who just really hates dumpsters?

Pretty much saying "we know someone put a device there meant to explode" but don't yet know the purpose. Could have been to attack a specific target, maybe a shake down for the business or a distraction for another non terror related crime (remember that still happens).
posted by mrzarquon at 8:41 PM on September 17, 2016

"Terrorism" only means Islamic terrorism, in this context. Sadly.

I mean that's a big blinking What Is Wrong With America sign, but not a surprising one.
posted by rokusan at 8:43 PM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

The market solves all problems! Everyone dying is a solution!

Well, technically.
posted by rokusan at 8:43 PM on September 17, 2016

"No link to terrorism" is politically correct codewords for "not Muslims."
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 8:44 PM on September 17, 2016 [21 favorites]

I can't remember where I read it, but supposedly explosives are used in pretty "normal" crimes (regular murder, theft, etc) fairly commonly. I'm sure it was a link somewhere on metafilter. Anyway, in the absence of someone claiming responsibility and a political motivation, even an intentional explosion doesn't seem like terrorism in any meaningful sense. Certainly people shouldn't jump to that conclusion just because it's an explosion.
posted by R343L at 8:46 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Needless to say it's absurd that Trump was saying that already. Yet another example that he's outside the bounds of normal political behavior.
posted by R343L at 8:47 PM on September 17, 2016

On third parties: there are actually a few things that make it harder to build downticket in the US than in other "plurality-wins" democracies, and I'm broadly sympathetic to reform there. Ballot access restrictions are mostly stupid and protectionist bullshit; municipal races are often nonpartisan (though with tacit party support for slates) so you can't really build up a party from them.

Americans vote for too many positions, and have not enough choice for the positions they ought to be voting for; nobody should be voting for State Commissioner of Widgets (make it a gubernatorial appointment and make the governor ultimately accountable for fuckups) and it should be very easy to get on a ballot for the lowest tier of partisan election.
posted by holgate at 8:48 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

Re: NY & NJ

It's not even October yet, but it's been Halloween all year.

My brain suggests scenarios, but reminds me that I don't have enough information to draw any conclusions.

Gut: "You damn well know enough to make a good guess."

Brain: "Shush." (Fidgets, but remains calm.)

It's a good thing they like each other, mostly.
posted by perspicio at 8:50 PM on September 17, 2016

The Commission on Presidential Debates has weighed in. Its Nonpartisan Candidate Selection Criteria will not allow Gary Johnson or Jill Stein into the first presidential debate, which is scheduled to take place on Sept. 26 at Hofstra University in New York. USA Today: "Candidates were required to reach 15% support in a selection of national polls to qualify... Johnson had 8.4% backing, while Stein had 3.2%."

I wonder if Jill Stein will be arrested trying to get into the debates again, as she was in 2012.
posted by SisterHavana at 8:51 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Charles Blow: Trump, Grand Wizard of Birtherism
posted by SisterHavana at 9:08 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

NY Times has done a complete 180 and starting to hit him with absolutely everything in the arsenal.
posted by Talez at 9:11 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

I never had a problem with Fallon (though I thought of him more of a lightweight Mike Myers than as a Sanders replacement). I mean, other than the obvious injustice of the million funnier women and people of color who deserve his success more than his bland white ass. But he's occasionally funny and very nonthreatening, and people like that when they're waiting for the Ambien to kick in .

But after the Trump thing, yeah, I'm done. Done with SNL too, Lorne Michaels' open arms to Trump didn't help things months ago either.
posted by emjaybee at 9:21 PM on September 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

Libertarians are worse than just no flat screen TVs. They take issue with poors having refrigerators as well.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:33 PM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

Wait, Johnson isn't even close to the 15% threshold? Man the way the LP Twitter feed has been going the last 2 weeks it was like he was so close you could taste it.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:34 PM on September 17, 2016

Wait, Johnson isn't even close to the 15% threshold?

He is when you count the millennials but the CPD has apparently decided to just ignore the existence of an entire generation because we don't have landlines.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:42 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, this is the first election thread I've spent any time in, and it's been fun, but I'm checking out now. Have fun!
posted by hippybear at 9:46 PM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

> NY Times has done a complete 180 and starting to hit him with absolutely everything in the arsenal.

I think getting one upped by the Washington Post has something to do with it. And the opening mocking of the press by him has finally sunk in.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:48 PM on September 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

He is when you count the millennials but the CPD has apparently decided to just ignore the existence of an entire generation because we don't have landlines.

From this very thread:

Polling is conducted by cellphones now, and pollsters do leave messages. They do callback polls. The polls are probably not wrong. Maybe the likely voter determinations are wrong, I could be convinced of that. But let's put this claim that the polls are skewed because they call landlines to bed.

From Pew:

Do survey researchers really call cellphones? I didn’t know that was possible.

Absolutely. All major survey organizations that conduct telephone surveys include cellphones in their samples. They have to, because the kinds of people who rely only on a cellphone are different from those reachable on a landline, even though being cellphone-only is becoming more mainstream.

So I'm afraid I'm going to need a cite for the claim that Gary Johnson would be above the threshold if the polls were unskewed.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:51 PM on September 17, 2016 [27 favorites]

He is when you count the millennials but the CPD has apparently decided to just ignore the existence of an entire generation because we don't have landlines.

Huh? He's not over 15% in any national poll. And the polls the CPD uses are the ABC/Washington Post, NBC/Wall Street Journal, CBS/New York Times, Fox and Gallup. None of which are landline only.
posted by chris24 at 9:52 PM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

> So I'm afraid I'm going to need a cite for the claim that Gary Johnson would be above the threshold if the polls were unskewed

The informal poll that no one on their facebook feed reported being polled.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:53 PM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

>NY Times has done a complete 180 and starting to hit him with absolutely everything in the arsenal.

I think getting one upped by the Washington Post has something to do with it.

Heck, the NYT has been getting one-upped by the New York Post!
posted by Sys Rq at 9:55 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

because we don't have landlines.

Pretty sure the only phone pollster this cycle that is landline-only is Emerson and it shows because their methodology is GI-[tweak a bit]-GO.
posted by holgate at 9:56 PM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

I am so grateful that the election is before the next major family holiday. If Clinton wins, I can feel reassured and magnanimous (though I will not put up with any viciousness) and we can all eat our turkey and talk about harmless things and anticipate having a future.

If Trump wins, well, I ain't going because I will have nothing to be thankful for and I don't want to actually know which of my relatives are happy it happened (I mean, I have some good guesses, but I don't want them confirmed).
posted by emjaybee at 9:59 PM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

I didn't say that he was *over* the threshhold yet, I was replying to whether he was *close*.

He's at 13% nationally (see page 4) when they actually include his name in the first question.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:01 PM on September 17, 2016

Then maybe just say he's close in one unincluded poll rather than make it about excluding millennials and landlines?
posted by chris24 at 10:06 PM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

There's not even a single Libertarian serving in congress. Johnson may be an amiable goof who some people find more palatable than Trump or Clinton but he is not a serious candidate, the Libertarians are not a serious national party, and including him in the debates would be a big dumb waste of everyone's time.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:08 PM on September 17, 2016 [30 favorites]

But that's a Quinnipiac poll... they aren't one of the polls used in the decision.
posted by Justinian at 10:10 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

... and what is Aleppo a Libertarian?
posted by tonycpsu at 10:10 PM on September 17, 2016 [10 favorites]

Some more Gary Johnson policies:

Opposes internet neutrality
Eliminates corporate income taxes
Supports the XL pipeline
No paid maternity or sick leave
Supports Citizens United
Supports TPP
Wants to abolish government support for all student loans
Supports fracking
Opposes all gun control
And of course repeal of Obamacare goes without saying

But he is in favor of marijuana. So there's something to hang your hat on.
posted by JackFlash at 10:14 PM on September 17, 2016 [49 favorites]

Then maybe just say he's close in one unincluded poll rather than make it about excluding millennials and landlines?

See page 22 of these recent CNN poll results. Entire 18-34 age bracket is "N/A" and thus not counted in the totals.

I assumed it was still the old landline vs cellphone problem of years past since neither my husband nor I have *ever* received a poll call on our cell phones yet my mother-in-law's landline is ringing off the hook with multiple pollsters calling every week.

But hey maybe they've come up with a new excuse to exclude an entire generation from the polls.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:14 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

I assumed it was still the old landline vs cellphone problem of years past since neither my husband nor I have *ever* received a poll call on our cell phones yet my mother-in-law's landline is ringing off the hook with multiple pollsters calling every week.

If the pollsters were using logic like this to do their oversampling, Gary Johnson could have 162% of the vote.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:17 PM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

Here's what would happen if Johnson were included in the debate:

- Trump would spend the entire time arguing with Johnson. If Clinton spoke he'd say something like "Hush, the men are talking here."

- His base would love that.

- All of the press would be "Hillary accuses Trump of Misogyny, Trump says she is the Real Misogynist" instead of being about her performance on the issues.

- Johnson would still lose the debate and the election.
posted by mmoncur at 10:19 PM on September 17, 2016 [15 favorites]

I assumed it was still the old landline vs cellphone problem of years past since neither my husband nor I have *ever* received a poll call on our cell phones.

The typical poll is around 1000 samples. With 100 million households it means you have a 1 in 100,000 chance of being called. The plural of anecdote is not data.
posted by JackFlash at 10:20 PM on September 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

I don't expect the vast majority of MeFites to ever like Libertarians or support our candidate. But you at least have to admit that we're getting fucked over (probably deliberately) in the methodology of the polls the CPD is using.

How can a poll that leaves out the entire 18-34 age bracket be considered legit? Yet it's one of the five polls the CPD averages to decide whether Gary Johnson can debate.

And how can any poll that doesn't include Johnson and Stein in the first question with Clinton and Trump instead of just as a follow-up question to the "someone else" answers be considered fair?
posted by Jacqueline at 10:21 PM on September 17, 2016

Also, there is a lot of campaigning done in the guise of polling. Your m-i-l's phone may be off the hook because she's being targetted for push polling with the intent of changing her vote, not getting her actual opinion.
posted by R343L at 10:22 PM on September 17, 2016 [13 favorites]

N/A doesn't mean they weren't counted in the totals (emphasis added):

A total of 1,001 adults were interviewed by telephone nationwide by live interviewers calling both landline and cell phones...Interviews were conducted among these subgroups, but results for groups with a sampling error larger than +/-8.5 percentage points are not displayed and instead are denoted with "NA"

In other words, the sampling error would be so great for those subgroups so as to be effectively meaningless. The sample is intended to produce meaningful results for the population as a whole, but there is much higher error when dealing with small subgroups. That could mean that this particular poll didn't reach a ton of 18-34 year olds, and so they weighted the ones they got more highly to ensure they matched the overall demographics of the nation, but it certainly doesn't mean that anyone under the age of 35 was excluded.
posted by zachlipton at 10:22 PM on September 17, 2016 [24 favorites]

See page 22 of these recent CNN poll results. Entire 18-34 age bracket is "N/A" and thus not counted in the totals.

"This sample includes 601 interviews among landline respondents and 400 interviews among cell phone respondents."

No idea why it shows N/A for the 18-34 age range; it shows an asterisk in other categories where they have less than 1% results. I don't know if that means their results got 0 hits in that age category, which would be more than a little weird.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:24 PM on September 17, 2016

That could mean that this particular poll didn't reach a ton of 18-34 year olds

So then how can it be representative of candidates' true levels of support? That's like 1/4th of the voting-age population.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:25 PM on September 17, 2016

In a rational society we wouldn't be holding debates at this point. Trump would be in a padded oval cell with a classy, a *very* classy (gold-plated Tuscan marble) desk with a pretend telephone to shout into, and Hillary's transition team would be swinging into full gear.
posted by uosuaq at 10:27 PM on September 17, 2016 [13 favorites]

The CNN poll did ask about Johnson and Stein in Question #1 (page 2 of the linked PDF):

Q1. (P5.) Suppose that the presidential election were being held today and you had to choose between Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine as the Democratic Party’s candidates, Donald Trump and Mike Pence as the Republican Party’s candidates, Gary Johnson and Bill Weld as the Libertarian Party’s candidates and Jill Stein and Ajamu Baraka as the Green Party’s candidates. Who would you be more likely to vote for? (RANDOM ORDER)

They even randomized the order of all the candidates so everyone had an equal chance of being first. Question #3 is just Clinton vs Trump. I can't say that all five of the CPD's polls did this, but the CNN poll did.
posted by zachlipton at 10:27 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Also, there is a lot of campaigning done in the guise of polling. Your m-i-l's phone may be off the hook because she's being targetted for push polling with the intent of changing her vote, not getting her actual opinion.

That might be it. I nearly break my neck rushing upstairs every time her phone rings just in case it's a poll and half the time it's a recording of Trump yelling instead. So her number is definitely on some lists.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:27 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

I liked Libertarians until they removed the children's rights plank from their platform, under the logic that advocating for minors' rights would include allowing 8-year-old prostitutes and kindergartners carrying guns. I watched for a few years to see if any of them changed their minds, but their message was always firmly, "if you don't have wealthy parents, better learn to bootstrap." The level of callousness they show for anyone hit by adverse circumstance is just breathtaking.

The level of cluelessness about government finance is almost as shocking - maybe more, since these are presumably well-educated people, whether or not they have any empathy. It's always fascinating to watch candidates blithely talk about shutting down entire branches of the government as if that would cause no problems whatsoever and there'd now be this huge pool of money freely available.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:33 PM on September 17, 2016 [24 favorites]

In other news, I spent 8 hours outside a beer and wine festival today passing out literature and asking people to vote for Gary Johnson.

Sooooooooooo many rude frat boy types shouting "TRUMP!" at me. Some even made a point to roll down the windows of their truck as they were leaving so they could honk and yell "TRUMP!" at me some more as they drove past.

Meanwhile, for HOURS not a single person even said a polite no thanks, they were voting for Clinton. And while I live in a generally conservative part of the country, the city the festival was being held in tends to be more Democrat, so I was wondering WTF was going on with that. FINALLY someone yelled "Hillary all the way!" at me and I sincerely thanked her for the variety.

Possible conclusions:
- Clinton supporters are less enthused about their candidate than Trump supporters
- Clinton supporters are just more polite than Trump supporters

(My theory: a little of both)
posted by Jacqueline at 10:37 PM on September 17, 2016 [10 favorites]

For the last 40 years, the more charming/likeable Presidential candidate won the election.

Hmm, good thing most women I know react to Trump with the desire to vomit copiously and or scrub their skin in a hot shower. He may seem likable to some segment of the populace, but I think by his poll numbers you can tell it's not women. We've known too many like him.
posted by threeturtles at 10:38 PM on September 17, 2016 [23 favorites]

So her number is definitely on some lists.

Yeah, that kind of frequency has the whiff of list-dealing. Does she also get a stack of junk mail that has OFFICIAL ELECTION COMMUNICATION or similar written on the envelope?
posted by holgate at 10:39 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Does she also get a stack of junk mail that has OFFICIAL ELECTION COMMUNICATION or similar written on the envelope?

She's the one who fetches the mail in so I never see hers.

But now I think I should ask her to start saving me any fundraising letters she receives, though, for research purposes.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:41 PM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Young voters don't turn out as much, so it's not as much when it comes to who actually votes, at least in years past, unfortunately.

The idea is that subgroups are weighted in polls to try to make them more representative of the electorate. So let's say you reach 1,000 adults who agree to participate in your poll and 100 of them say they're between 18 and 34. You actually have data to conclude that 18-34-year-olds are closer to 20% of the electorate, so you weight their responses 2x. This gives you a reasonably accurate picture of the whole nation, but it means, simply by virtue of sampling error, that you can't break down what 18-34-year-olds say specifically, at least not without making a bunch more calls. And since the point of the poll is the national number, not the subgroups, they set the number of calls at a lower level.

At some point, the discussion really boils down to are polls accurate? And the answer seems to be that, generally, for all their faults, polls are more predictive of the election result the closer they are to election day, and generally do pretty well after Labor Day. Indeed, polls including all the candidates tend to overstate third-party support compared to the actual election results (and they tend to understate third-party support when they only ask about the Republican and Democratic candidates and wait for respondents to say "other").
posted by zachlipton at 10:48 PM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

Sooooooooooo many rude frat boy types shouting "TRUMP!" at me.

I think the message is that other than marijuana, Gary Johnson is offering nothing different than Trump offers bigger and better.
posted by JackFlash at 10:54 PM on September 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

I think the message is that other than marijuana, Gary Johnson is offering nothing different than Trump offers bigger and better.

Uh... actual experience governing, perhaps?
posted by Jacqueline at 10:57 PM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

not a single person even said a polite no thanks, they were voting for Clinton.

a. Many of us are not going to talk to anyone handing out fliers, most of the time
b. I'm pretty sure lots of women especially feel like they'll get harassed/harangued by a Trump/Johnson/Stein person, and why even bother? I have a Clinton sign in my yard, and every morning I'm slightly surprised no one has stolen or vandalized it. Because anti-Clinton dudes, especially, tend to be real assholes and not above threatening violence, and we do the math on "is it worth the risk that this person is reasonable."
posted by emjaybee at 11:00 PM on September 17, 2016 [28 favorites]

On the question of Johnson being "fucked over", I would say that 15% is a rather high bar to clear for the kinds of third parties we have right now, who are unable to or uninterested in building organizations that can meaningfully compete at the local and state levels to provide the base of partisan support that would make such a bar easy to clear for any credible candidate. But if a party can't do that or can't be bothered to try, then I have a hard time feeling sorry for them. There are a lot of barriers to third parties in the US, but as long as so much of their energy is going to these Hail Mary plays to get Ralph Nader, Bob Barr, Jill Stein, or Gary Johnson elected President, where they would have precisely zero members of their own party to work with in Congress, this really looks like an endless video loop of own goals rather than some kind of conspiracy to keep them from participating in politics.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:03 PM on September 17, 2016 [27 favorites]

Good for you, Jacqueline, for getting involved and working for your candidate. I don't agree with nearly anything that he stands for and think he was a bit of a train wreck of a governor, but I appreciate that you're active and involved.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:07 PM on September 17, 2016 [23 favorites]

The entire primary was a story of Clinton having deep, widespread support that remained fairly quiet in public and online. She had less vocal support and yet she had three million more votes than her opponent.

I don't know if I'm representative of Clinton supporters or not, but I was sick of defending Clinton from bullshit accusations and double-standards during the primary against Sanders supporters and I'm really not any more enthusiastic about the prospect of doing the same vs. Johnson supporters. At this point it's too easy to assume every discussion will turn into that sort of thing. Jacuqline, given your comments about politeness, I'll assume you weren't out there being obnoxious or anything, but at this point in the campaign I think a lot of Clinton supporters are just gonna keep operating as they did during the primaries.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:07 PM on September 17, 2016 [29 favorites]

Is he wanting to dissolve SafeLink

Personally I read it as not paying for any government employees to have cell phones. Since that's the only way I could figure anything to do with cell phones would affect the federal budget to the extent he is talking about. Of course, having been a government employee with a work cell, he might as well just say everyone can work without computers or cars or whatever, too. That will definitely save money, so long as we're not concerned with ability to actually do one's job. But I'm pretty sure Libertarians have no concern with practical reality anyway...so win!
posted by threeturtles at 11:08 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Interview with David Fahrenthold: Meet the reporter who’s giving Donald Trump fits (WaPo)
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:15 PM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

not a single person even said a polite no thanks, they were voting for Clinton

Yeah, here's the deal.

I'm voting for Clinton.
I LIKE and RESPECT Hillary Clinton. I TRUST her.
I don't think she's a lesser evil or a hard choice.
I voted for her in the primaries and look forward to voting for her in the election.

BUT...

This is the only place outside my own family where I will admit that.

When you live in a deeply red state it's simply not safe to admit that.

And I certainly wouldn't admit it to someone gleefully waving a sign for an opposing candidate.

I don't want an argument, I just want a decent President.

Every time someone talks to me about Trump I just nod politely, then go home and donate another $20 to the Clinton campaign.

I hope I'm not the only one.
posted by mmoncur at 11:16 PM on September 17, 2016 [87 favorites]

Interview with David Fahrenthold: Meet the reporter who’s giving Donald Trump fits (WaPo)

Alternate title: "Meet the reporter who's doing his fucking job"
posted by tonycpsu at 11:17 PM on September 17, 2016 [46 favorites]

FWIW, from my last comment: "I'll assume you weren't out there being obnoxious or anything," ...oh god that comes off as so condescending now that I read it again and I'm so sorry. That was not my intent and you didn't deserve that.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:22 PM on September 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's fine. A lot of people ARE obnoxious when electioneering. I'd like to think I wasn't -- I just told everyone who said no to have a good day, enjoy the festival, or on the way out to have a safe trip home etc.

The only people I got aggressive with were the ones who said "I can't vote, I'm a felon" because I was so happy to inform them "NO NO NOT TRUE YOU CAN NOW THE GOVERNOR RESTORED YOUR RIGHTS I HAVE THE NUMBER TO CALL SAVED IN MY PHONE LET ME GIVE IT TO YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU." Sometimes while chasing them down to give them the number lol. But it really pisses me off that they were ever disenfranchised in the first place so if I can help a few people get their voting rights back then I'm gonna drop my Johnson flyers for a few minutes and do that instead.

(I really need to get that number and the basic info printed on a bunch of business cards or something.)
posted by Jacqueline at 11:28 PM on September 17, 2016 [43 favorites]

It all becomes clear. Trump’s Behavior Similar To Male Chimpanzee, Says Jane Goodall
posted by KirkpatrickMac at 12:03 AM on September 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

Unfair to chimps.
posted by asteria at 12:15 AM on September 18, 2016 [25 favorites]

Someone four houses down from me put up a Trump sign today. Considering the only other really close sign was a Hillary sign that was repeatedly vandalized until the homeowner gave up, I will be interested in seeing what if anything happens to this sign. Somehow I think it has better odds of surviving.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 1:47 AM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

For the last 40 years, the more charming/likeable Presidential candidate won the election.

I gotta disagree with the terms there, I'd suggest "confident" or maybe "self assured" is a better measure than "charming/likeable".

Confidence and self surety suggest how we tend to frame an idea of "strength", not just in politics, but in the larger world as well. From my perspective, the common thread of all the losing candidates lay more in how they stumbled about defining themselves than in sheer pleasantness, charisma, charm, or what have you. Gore and Dukakis, for example, not only looked foolish at some notable moments, but they both changed their tone and demeanor on different occasions as if looking to create some "message" rather than just seeming to be "natural". Mondale came across as deferential and Kerry and Romney seemed to be playing down their backgrounds in faux appeals to middle class tastes. None fit the mold of what I see as the cultural view of strength based in self certainty.

Trump has that in a very singular way that some seem to take at face value, while others see it as a huge bluff. Clinton has it too, but based around knowledge and ability rather than bluster. She sometimes looks weaker when she is being truthful given it comes across as apologetic in a way that perversely suggests dishonesty, where the feeling might be that one wouldn't need to admit a mistake if one were stronger to begin with.

If the debates actually revolve around policy and things a president actually does, then Clinton should win handily, but if they go towards personality "issues" then it's less certain since Trump will continue to bluff and Clinton might act on her seeming reflexive honesty and acknowledge change or mistakes in ways that could read as weak to a lot of people. If she can simply demonstrate who she is and what's she's always stood for, she should do well. Some people are always going to go for the bluster, but there are more than enough people out there who can see through it just looking for some confidence from and for Clinton to able to vote for her without worry.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:59 AM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

actual experience governing, perhaps?

And what is experience?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:59 AM on September 18, 2016

If Trump is charming or likable, then I'm a Vermicious K'nid.
posted by mmoncur at 3:38 AM on September 18, 2016 [11 favorites]

Meanwhile, for HOURS not a single person even said a polite no thanks, they were voting for Clinton.

I'm an enthusiastic supporter of Clinton. What's the point of engaging with someone out there waving a sign for Johnson? I would probably avoid making eye contact and give you a wide berth because I am wholly uninterested in your literature. It's nothing personal - that's cool that you're involved enough to volunteer for him! - but I wouldn't know if your reaction to me saying something positive about Clinton would be an angry one, and why would I willingly subject myself to that? Maybe it's because I used to live in a place that was like flier distribution central but the best case scenario in saying "no I'm voting for their opponent" is a neutral reaction and really just a waste of everyone's time.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 3:44 AM on September 18, 2016 [26 favorites]

but the best case scenario in saying "no I'm voting for their opponent" is a neutral reaction and really just a waste of everyone's time.

That's why I made an effort to tell those people to have fun at the festival or a safe trip home etc. Even if you weren't going to vote for my guy, I'd hope you'd at least come away with an impression of Johnson supporters being NICE.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:01 AM on September 18, 2016 [7 favorites]

Possible conclusions:
- Clinton supporters are less enthused about their candidate than Trump supporters
- Clinton supporters are just more polite than Trump supporters

- Trump supporters saw you supporting a right wing extremist and thought you could be persuaded to switch, while Clinton supporters assumed there was no point in trying.
posted by jack_mo at 4:10 AM on September 18, 2016 [27 favorites]

I do understand, though, why most people wouldn't want to engage with another candidate's supporter. I did get a lot of "no thanks" or "I'm already decided" with no mention of whom they were voting for instead.

What was weird was for every 2 of those people there was 1 vocal Trump supporter. Not all were obnoxiously screaming "TRUMP!" at me -- many just said "We're making America great again" as they walked by.

So it leaves me wondering why so many Trump supporters had no compunction against (sometimes loudly) voicing their support despite all the good reasons mentioned here for just not engaging.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:13 AM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

A lot of young men seem to be identifying with Trump as a form of disruption to the status quo, so the actions of the people you saw fit in with that pretty well. It isn't about policy as much as the candidate, and not even as much about the candidate as a candidate as it is Trump as a signifier of their manhood, a kind of middle finger to the rest of the world and celebration of themselves basically.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:18 AM on September 18, 2016 [13 favorites]

Mod note: This is getting to be a kind of weird extended derail. Several people have offered ideas, please let it go now.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:20 AM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Just looked it up and Lynchburg is 47% Democrats. And this was a $30 entrance festival featuring local wineries and craft breweries, so it should have skewed even more Democrat given that neither Liberty students nor Southern Baptists drink (in public) and most poor white men would probably prefer to buy two 24 packs of whatever cheap beer they usually drink instead.

So Trump supporters should have been a minority but they identified themselves at least 50 times more often than Clinton supporters. And there was almost never an attempt to persuade, just a loud declaration of their support for Trump while blowing me off.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:27 AM on September 18, 2016

Many candidates have lost believing that the loudness of their supporters equated to votes.

I doubt those Trump screamers even noticed or cared about the name of the candidate whom you were supporting. You just gave them a chance to be bullies (to a woman even!) with impunity. They like that. It's almost as cool as rolling coal in front of a Prius.

Gotta check that confirmation bias thing. It's always a bigger cognitive obstacle for supporters of quixotic candidates and lost causes.
posted by spitbull at 4:39 AM on September 18, 2016 [10 favorites]

By the way, I've defended Johnson a bit in these threads on the philosophical basis of his being anti-Trump. An enemy of my enemy can be my sorta friend if we make a deal. "And what is 'Aleppo'?" was pretty devastating though, or would be if any significant number of Americans could even name Johnson's home state or running mate if asked.

Libertarians need a media network of their own, but based on the ones I know it would look more like an extended cut from an old SNL.
posted by spitbull at 4:47 AM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

New York Times Reinstates Managing Editor Role and Appoints Joseph Kahn

I wonder if this has anything to do with the noticible change in coverage from the NYT.
posted by colt45 at 5:00 AM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

"And what is 'Aleppo'?" was pretty devastating though, or would be if any significant number of Americans could even name Johnson's home state or running mate if asked.

Heh, I think the Aleppo gaffe will actually help us in the long-run. The media presented it as "the third candidate for President doesn't know where Aleppo is" but I think what a lot of voters heard was "there's a third candidate for President!" It certainly didn't hurt him in the polls any.

Given the number of people who lunged for my literature like they were drowning and I was offering them a life preserver when they heard the words "third option for President," I think at this point, almost anything that increases public awareness that he exists is more likely to help than hurt.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:25 AM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

In other news, I spent 8 hours outside a beer and wine festival today passing out literature and asking people to vote for Gary Johnson.

Sooooooooooo many rude frat boy types shouting "TRUMP!" at me. Some even made a point to roll down the windows of their truck as they were leaving so they could honk and yell "TRUMP!" at me some more as they drove past.

Meanwhile, for HOURS not a single person even said a polite no thanks, they were voting for Clinton. And while I live in a generally conservative part of the country, the city the festival was being held in tends to be more Democrat, so I was wondering WTF was going on with that. FINALLY someone yelled "Hillary all the way!" at me and I sincerely thanked her for the variety.

Possible conclusions:
- Clinton supporters are less enthused about their candidate than Trump supporters
- Clinton supporters are just more polite than Trump supporters

(My theory: a little of both)

I am an avid Clinton supporter. I do not make a habit of stopping to speak with stumpers for ANY candidate when I'm out in public, because I really don't care to have a conversation with complete strangers obviously in the tank for someone I'm not supporting so that they can try to harangue me about my beliefs and get me to vote for their candidate. I'm not interested in taking their literature, stopping to hear anything they have to say, and least of all I am REALLY not interested in pausing on my way to have some fun in order to have my entire day ruined by someone shitting all over me for how I choose to vote, which is what has happened when some strangers have found out who I'm voting for.

Maybe instead of assuming that people didn't run up and scream Hillary's name at you, like the Trump assholes, maybe you should consider how wary many Clinton supporters here have been about supporting her publicly because of how they've been treated. The lack of people coming up to praise their chosen candidate does not mean they're lukewarm on their candidate. It often means they don't care enough about yours to engage you.

I mean, I don't stop to talk to the Lyndon LaRouche kids on the street when I pass their table, even to say no thanks. All it means is that I'm not interested in talking to them.
posted by palomar at 5:57 AM on September 18, 2016 [31 favorites]

It all becomes clear. Trump’s Behavior Similar To Male Chimpanzee, Says Jane Goodall

Doesn't Jane Goodall think chimps are wonderful?
posted by waitingtoderail at 5:57 AM on September 18, 2016

Obama at the CBC dinner: "Democracy is on the ballot".
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:58 AM on September 18, 2016 [12 favorites]

People who would be voting for anyone with an R next to their name but just can't even with Trump can knock themselves out with third parties.

I have volunteered for the Clinton campaign and when I'm out as a private citizen I don't engage other canvassers about my candidate. What would be the point? I'm not changing my mind, they're not changing theirs. I was walking across campus the other day and some dude with some kind of conservative organization lit table started losing his lit because of a gust of wind. I helped pick up his "Socialism Sucks" bumper stickers and went on my way.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:04 AM on September 18, 2016 [18 favorites]

Doesn't Jane Goodall think chimps are wonderful?

Probably not as President.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:06 AM on September 18, 2016 [36 favorites]

soren_lorensen: I helped pick up his "Socialism Sucks" bumper stickers

... like a true comrade should.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:10 AM on September 18, 2016 [14 favorites]

I'm a Clinton supporter and if I saw a Johnson table, I'd give a seriously wide berth because there's just no way that I'm going to want to talk to a libertarian booster. Libertarians I know want to just talk your ear off about silly political fan-fiction like bringing the gold standard back or abolishing the fed and life to too short to have to listen to that.
posted by octothorpe at 6:12 AM on September 18, 2016 [51 favorites]

I live in a town that is obsessed with football. On game days, pretty much everyone but me is wearing the colors of the local team. But every once in a while, you'll bump into someone wearing gear for the rival team. Once or twice, I have accidentally worn the rival team's color on game day. Most people don't say anything: they're big fans of the local team, but they hate the rival team's fans or want to pick fights. Some people, though, will yell at the people wearing the wrong team's stuff. Every once in a while, someone will get really belligerent.

I think that Trump supporters are probably more likely than supporters of other candidates to think of their candidate as being like a sports team. And they may be more likely to be in the shouty or really belligerent groups, for reasons of demographics or temperament.

Anyway, if my analogy holds, it's not a good thing for Trump, because the screamers are likely to be too drunk to remember to vote on election day. Also pretty likely to get arrested for public intox and miss the election because they're drying out in a holding cell.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:14 AM on September 18, 2016 [8 favorites]

And I'm trying really hard to avoid discussing politics with third-party voters in general, because I have a tendency to get snarky with them in ways that probably aren't helpful.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:17 AM on September 18, 2016 [7 favorites]

She has a whole book about males in one chimpanzee community systematically hunting down and killing individuals from another chimpanzee community. I think if there's anyone capable of recognizing that aggression isn't a good way to gain power, that "natural" behaviors aren't always good, and that sharing common ancestry and behavior is no excuse for behaving like our primate relatives at their "worst," it is Jane Goodall. Part of the value of research like what Jane Goodall did (and, I say modestly, the way I like to think of my research) is putting human behavior in a cross-species context. Is it comforting to know that Donald Trump is behaving more or less like a male chimpanzee trying to climb up the dominance hierarchy? I don't know.

I saw Frans De Waal speak earier this year, and he said something very similar (he suggested turning off the sound on the presidential debates and just observing body language; you'll get basically the same outcome). He also pointed out the importance of reconciliation when you have aggression and competition and these dominance hierarchies in the primates, and the fact that regardless of the outcome of this election, reconciliation is going to be key to maintaining a successful social group.
posted by ChuraChura at 6:17 AM on September 18, 2016 [24 favorites]

Doesn't Jane Goodall think chimps are wonderful?

Probably not as President.

Yet I *would* vote for a bonobo.
posted by mikelieman at 6:19 AM on September 18, 2016 [10 favorites]

I doubt those Trump screamers even noticed or cared about the name of the candidate whom you were supporting. You just gave them a chance to be bullies (to a woman even!) with impunity. They like that. It's almost as cool as rolling coal in front of a Prius.

Perhaps. While I didn't encounter more than a couple self-identified Clinton supporters, I did encounter a few more people that I inferred were Democrats based on their concern for my wellbeing after they'd witnessed some of the more obnoxious incidents of Trump supporters shouting at me or taking my literature and then flicking it back at me to hit me in the chest with the edge etc. I got a lot of "how do you even DEAL with that," "what are you getting out of this," and at the end of the festival "wow, you're still here?!" type questions from people I suspect were Democrats. And there were a few people who stopped to semi-aggressively grill me about Johnson's positions from whom I picked up a Democrat vibe from based on what they were asking me about. So they were THERE, but only a couple cheered for Clinton in the same way the others were cheering for Trump and only near the end of the festival when they were a bit drunk.

The reason I bring up the disparity I've witnessed is that I'm genuinely disappointed that Clinton supporters aren't being more vocal in their support. Virginia is purportedly a swing state yet it seems like the Democrats aren't even *trying* to compete in the part I live in. There are Trump signs everywhere but I've yet to see a single Clinton sign, my mother-in-law may call herself independent but she's voted Democrat in the last umpteen number of elections yet she only gets robocalled by recordings of a shouting Trump, there was a very-well-staffed (and loudly vocal) Trump booth at last week's street fair downtown but no Clinton booth, etc.

C'mon guys, I'm counting on y'all to keep the madman out of office. Myself, I still gotta campaign and vote for Johnson if for no other reason than if we get 10% in Virginia then I will not have to personally stand out in front of the DMV in the blazing sun begging crabby people for signatures for the next four years, but I've still been helping y'all out by running a little Sunday morning side project of setting up voter registration tables outside of black churches. (I have to skip this week because I'm busy prepping for a big LP meeting / Gary Johnson volunteers cookout this afternoon, but I intend to make up for it by going door-to-door in a black neighborhood later this week. And yes, sadly this part of Virginia is still so "voluntarily" segregated that there are definitively black and white churches and neighborhoods.)

Please, get it together and start standing up to the Trumpers, or at least stop being afraid to even say your candidate's NAME. Yeah, some assholes will yell at you, but the alternative is letting people perceive that almost everyone is for Trump where they live, which is scary and alienating for a lot of people and may also depress some into not bothering to vote on Election Day. :(
posted by Jacqueline at 6:21 AM on September 18, 2016 [7 favorites]

Yet I *would* vote for a bonobo.

Throwing your vote away on a third party, smh
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:21 AM on September 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

Is it comforting to know that Donald Trump is behaving more or less like a male chimpanzee trying to climb up the dominance hierarchy?

For me it might add some comfort because it could at least offer some sort of explanation but any comfort gained by it is canceled out by thinking of those chimps having access to a nuclear button when they reach the top.
posted by Jalliah at 6:23 AM on September 18, 2016

Please don't tell other people that they need to go out and let psychopaths scream at them because you don't want Trump in office. Especially since you're voting third party. Thanks.
posted by palomar at 6:23 AM on September 18, 2016 [62 favorites]

Libertarians I know want to just talk your ear off about silly political fan-fiction like bringing the gold standard back or abolishing the fed and life to too short to have to listen to that.

Now imagine what it's like when you have to regularly attend meetings with those dudes lol
posted by Jacqueline at 6:26 AM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Please don't tell other people that they need to go out and let psychopaths scream at them because you don't want Trump in office. Especially since you're voting third party. Thanks.

And canvassing to convince others to vote third party in a swing state.
posted by chris24 at 6:26 AM on September 18, 2016 [42 favorites]

the Senate is biased toward smaller states and the House toward large ones,

I wish people would stop with this bullshit "bias" argument about the two houses of Congress. It's set up this way to balance the effest on legislation. The house is populated based on raw population numbers of the states, which, of course, will hand more influence to the larger, more populous states. In reality, at least in our era, the House is biased according to which party has drawn the state voting districts most effectively, which is a completely different issue.

The Senate, on the other hand, is populated in a way to give all states an even vote. I'm not sure how that actually "biases" the Senate toward smaller states (other than there are more smaller states than huge ones, I guess,) but small states don't vote as a monolith, so I think that interpretation of bias is pretty unfounded. If anything, the Senate is a more realistic reflection on how divided the US populace really is, politically, since jerrymandering does not affect Senate voting in the states.

Our founding fathers recognized the problem of balance, and their solution was to divide the math between the two Federal bodies. Lately, I've heard a lot grousing how the Senate should also be based on proportional representation. I don't understand this desire since, at this point in our history, would result in the Senate becoming a close of the House. Which would beg the question of the need for a second (highly dysfunctional and highly dangerous) body of the legislation arm.

The fix for Congress lies almost solely in the states, which is where the right have been aiming their big guns and money on for several decades.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:31 AM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Honestly, given that you won't vote for the only candidate that stands any chance of beating the cheeto, why should anyone take your exhortations seriously?
posted by palomar at 6:31 AM on September 18, 2016 [38 favorites]

Wow, this new Clinton ad on veterans, POWs and Trump is powerful.

"The brave men and women who have served our country deserve better than Donald Trump."
posted by chris24 at 6:32 AM on September 18, 2016 [19 favorites]

Please don't tell other people that they need to go out and let psychopaths scream at them because you don't want Trump in office. Especially since you're voting third party. Thanks.

What, so you don't think anyone should personally campaign for any candidate ever, and just hope that TV ads and robocalls will be sufficient? Because getting screamed at by psychopaths is par for the course when you're canvassing, calling, or staffing outreach booths, regardless of whom you're campaigning for.

And canvassing to convince others to vote third party in a swing state.

I'm pretty sure that I'm registering likely Democrats to vote at a faster rate than I'm persuading people who would have otherwise voted Clinton to vote for Johnson instead.

Most of the people I've converted to Johnson supporters are recovering Republicans who got fed up with their party's hateful stances on social issues, people who still identify as Republican but can't stand Trump, and the previously apolitical. I've heard that Johnson is picking up a lot of Sanders supporters in other areas but locally we've only recruited one Sanderista so far. (He still wears his Sanders shirt to Libertarian meetings, which I find to be loltastically wonderful. I want to elect this kid to office.)
posted by Jacqueline at 6:39 AM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

The Senate, on the other hand, is populated in a way to give all states an even vote. I'm not sure how that actually "biases" the Senate toward smaller states

It biases the Senate toward residents of smaller states, each of whose vote counts for more than a resident of a larger state.

Lately, I've heard a lot grousing how the Senate should also be based on proportional representation. I don't understand this desire since, at this point in our history, would result in the Senate becoming a close of the House.

As you point out, a lot of the issues with the House are due to gerrymandering. If senators were elected in statewide, at-large elections, but assigned votes proportional to their state's population, we could avoid those issues while also avoiding the current problem with the Senate, which is that a tiny obstructionist minority of voters from rural states can elect enough senators to stop programs that are overwhelmingly favored by the country as a whole.
posted by enn at 6:42 AM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

What, so you don't think anyone should personally campaign for any candidate ever

Do whatever you want, support whoever you want, campaign for whoever you want. But coming in here and saying 'Goddamit guys, I really need you to beat Trump, but I'll be over here campaigning for Johnson' is insulting and offensive.
posted by chris24 at 6:43 AM on September 18, 2016 [79 favorites]

I seldom have nightmares these days but I had a Trump nightmare (not end-of-world, just oh-god-why-is-he-in-this-restaurant) the other day. This fucking election can be over now. His stupid face and name and voice being everywhere can definitely be over now.

In good news, my yard sign is still up and un-fucked-with.
posted by emjaybee at 6:43 AM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Clinton's ground game is much fiercer than Trump's. Your local anecdata is, again, not actual data.

Demanding other people do the work of electing the only person who can keep Trump out of government while you get to keep your own moral purity is pretty rich, though.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:44 AM on September 18, 2016 [72 favorites]

It biases the Senate toward residents of smaller states, each of whose vote counts for more than a resident of a larger state.

That's completely true. But a fascinating thing is that, even though smaller states tend to be more conservative than bigger states, the Senate is actually more Democratic than the House, because the Republicans are geniuses at gerrymandering, and the Senate can't be gerrymandered.

It's sort of an interesting thought exercise about how we would change things if we were going to start from scratch and design an American political system, but I'm not sure it's totally relevant right now, because it's not going to happen anytime soon, and we're sort of staring down a bit of an existential crisis for the next two months. Come mid-November, I'll be happy to discuss it.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:48 AM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Libertarianism is a philosophy that believes that people are basically good, and they do not need government regulation or oversight.

How anyone can view Donald Trump, and his support and supporters, and still believe in libertarianism I do not know.
posted by adam hominem at 6:48 AM on September 18, 2016 [23 favorites]

Libertarianism is a philosophy that believes that people are basically good, and they do not need government regulation or oversight.

Is that true? I think that anarchism is a philosophy that says that people are basically good. Libertarianism is a philosophy that says that the person holding it is smarter and stronger than everyone else and has bigger guns, and in a lawless society, they will end up at the top of the heap.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:51 AM on September 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

To clarify re ground game: Clinton's uses massive amounts of analytics to target ground and voters specifically. That means that some counties or districts have been deemed either a sure thing or a lost cause and are not allocated the resources needed for a heavy presence. The campaign has way way way more voter data than you or me or any of us. They know where to press forward and where to back off to an absurdly precise degree.

Trump on the other hand has openly said that he thinks analytics is useless and his campaign doesn't use voter targeting data. You see them in random spots that may or may not have any bearing on the actual election, it's just where someone felt like opening an office or setting up a table.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:51 AM on September 18, 2016 [13 favorites]

As a change of subject, I'm starting to think this election is only the start of a long run of ugly showdowns. I've been seeing a lot of news shows covering driverless cars lately, as if there's some sort of push to do so, and given driving is one of the largest employment segments for men without college educations, the potential removal of huge swaths of jobs from that sector is only going to make for increasing agitation and aggression among members of the group with the largest propensity for that already. I'm getting the feeling that if we don't start addressing these kinds of issues soon things will really get out of hand.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:53 AM on September 18, 2016 [15 favorites]

The analytics-targeted ground game is pretty amazing, but it's really important not to overestimate how powerful it is. 2014 was a pretty big wakeup call about that. It can make a difference at the margins, but it can't overcome big (or even moderate) disadvantages. And it's also to some extent a prisoner to enthusiasm, because it relies on volunteers, and it's hard to get people to volunteer for candidates about whom they're not enthusiastic.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:55 AM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Is that true?

It's true of my parents who are objectivist libertarians. Both ideologies also attract sociopaths who are looking for an ideology that says that whatever they want to do is virtuous. But the major philosophical difference between my parents and me such that they are libertarians and I'm a social democrat is that I think people suck and they have this heroic vision of humanity as inherently pure and good.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:56 AM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

Johnson's stance on abortion comes off as feel-good and fuzzy on his website. Howeverr when asked about specifics:

Q: Should abortion be outlawed in the United States?
A: Let each state decide.
Q: Should the federal government fund stem cell research and legalize its development in the private sector?
A: No, but allow the private sector to explore potential benefits.
Q: Should the government require health insurance companies to provide free birth control?
A: No, let the insurance companies decide instead of a government mandate.

Ah yes, letting the states decide to ban abortion and insurance companies decided "nah" to birth control, that's always worked out well.

On equal pay for women:

Should employers be required to pay men and women the same salary for the same job?
Gary Johnson’s answer: No, there are too many other variables such as education, experience, and tenure that determine a fair salary

Typical libertarian white-dude stuff. Nah.
posted by emjaybee at 7:01 AM on September 18, 2016 [66 favorites]

at least stop being afraid to even say your candidate's NAME

In addition to everything everyone else has said, are you not reading the responses to your comments? Many people have explained to you (and it's mentioned often in these threads anyway) exactly why people are skittish about being vocal about Clinton to strangers. Why would we want to engage with a third party supporter who'll harangue Clinton supporters about not being good enough to provide cover for Johnson? No thanks.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 7:02 AM on September 18, 2016 [11 favorites]

Mod note: A couple of comments deleted. Please cut out the personal attacks, and let's back away from centering the entire discussion on Jacqueline and the "Clinton supporters need to be noisier" argument at this point.
posted by taz (staff) at 7:06 AM on September 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

A good tweetstorm from John Noonan, Nat Sec advisor to Romney and Jeb on the powerful Clinton POW ad posted above.

1/ One of the dumbest things Trump's ever said is POWs aren't heroes for being captured. That's not the damn point.

2/Theyre heroes for how the conducted themselves in captivity. Like smashing their faces to pulp so they couldn't be used in propaganda vids

3/Or enduring torture b/c they refused to bad mouth USA. Or blinking torture in a video to signal Intel analysts. Or refusing early release

4/ North Vietnam was the deadliest airspace in the world outside the USSR. Guys like McCain knew the danger but flew into that mess daily

5/Those comments make Trump undeserving of the honor of leading men like our POWS. Also makes this ad devastating
posted by chris24 at 7:08 AM on September 18, 2016 [47 favorites]

Obama at the CBC dinner: "Democracy is on the ballot".

Wow. That is powerful - no anger-management there at all. I hope it has some effect.
posted by mumimor at 7:09 AM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

What self-identified "Libertarians" fail to realize is that there are things that are best done at the Federal level.

Consider: Traffic Lights. US Dept. of Transportation mandated shades red, yellow, and green, and their relative position is a GOOD THING. I can drive from New York to California and know when I should stop, proceed with caution, or go.
posted by mikelieman at 7:12 AM on September 18, 2016 [10 favorites]

"It's true of my parents who are objectivist libertarians. Both ideologies also attract sociopaths..."

Come on. We're not sociopaths. Sociopaths are charming.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:16 AM on September 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

Libertarians are basically people who hear about rural Sheffield leveraging their role into a petty dictatorship and think that is an awesome way to run EVERYTHING.
posted by Artw at 7:17 AM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

powerful Clinton POW ad posted above.

I *know* "Never read the comments". WHY did I read them? WHY???
posted by mikelieman at 7:20 AM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Mods, please delete if off topic / derail / etc

I understand where you're coming from to some degree, Jacqueline. The idea of a Trump presidency *is scary* to any reasonable person. I like that you're in these threads and reading this discussion - and I wonder if your disappointment in not getting to engage with Hillary supporters in your area (and why you're here) stems from a desire to want to be convinced to vote for her.

If that's the case, I think it means, deep down, you're already convinced! Vote for her! She's the best person for the job. She's wonderful! You don't even have to tell any of your libertarian friends. It's just you in that voting booth doing your part to keep an orange monster out of the White House.
posted by erisfree at 7:24 AM on September 18, 2016 [20 favorites]

chris24: "Wow, this new Clinton ad on veterans, POWs and Trump is powerful.

"The brave men and women who have served our country deserve better than Donald Trump.""

Wow. That's brutal to watch. The moment when the words catch in the speaker's throat and he pauses for a second just killed me.
posted by octothorpe at 7:25 AM on September 18, 2016 [39 favorites]

C'mon guys, I'm counting on y'all to keep the madman out of office.

Nope, nope, nope. The best way to keep Trump out of office is to support Hillary.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:28 AM on September 18, 2016 [46 favorites]

I live in a town that is obsessed with football. On game days, pretty much everyone but me is wearing the colors of the local team. But every once in a while, you'll bump into someone wearing gear for the rival team.

I'd like to see the major candidates and their campaigns adopt face paint, jerseys, and large oversized foam thingies like #1 gloves or oddly shaped hats.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:30 AM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

The moment when the words catch in the speaker's throat and he pauses for a second just killed me.

"My war is 70 years ago... and yesterday."

Tears.
posted by chris24 at 7:30 AM on September 18, 2016 [16 favorites]

Christie tells CNN it's "not true" Trump fanned flames of birtherism for years: "It's not like he was talking about it on a regular basis"

But at least CNN is calling him out on it.

Chris Christie (falsely) tells @jaketapper "it's just not true that (Trump) kept this [birther stuff] up for 5 years." #CNNsotu
posted by chris24 at 7:33 AM on September 18, 2016 [8 favorites]

So Chuck Todd was going at Kelly Ann Conway on MTP just now and the feed cut out. He immediately apologized to her and the audience for the technical difficulties but I wouldn't be surprised if she disconnected. It definitely bought her a few minutes to figure out how to bullshit her way out of explaining how Trump will wall off his business interests from his Presidential duties. (Spoiler: she pivoted to complaining about Clinton.)
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:36 AM on September 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

"My war is 70 years ago... and yesterday."

I need a Dandelion Break. And a hug.
posted by mikelieman at 7:40 AM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

Obama at the CBC dinner: "Democracy is on the ballot".

Wowww. Seconding this being worth a watch.

"I will consider it a personal insult, an insult to my legacy, if this community lets down its guard and fails to activate itself in this election. You want to give me a good send-off, go vote."
posted by saturday_morning at 7:44 AM on September 18, 2016 [61 favorites]

Pence is having another good morning on the shows.

Mike Pence Says His Role Model for Vice President is Dick Cheney

"“I frankly hold Dick Cheney in really high regard in his role as vice president and as an American."

Also in the same interview.

RADDATZ: Why did it take [Trump] so long to put [birtherism] to an end?

PENCE: It's over.

RADDATZ: It's not over.
posted by chris24 at 7:45 AM on September 18, 2016 [17 favorites]

So Chuck Todd was going at Kelly Ann Conway on MTP

After seeing the clip of her on Maher, I'm actually sympathetic to her. I have enough Production experience to see the fourth wall breaking in Bill's needling of Kelly's gig, and her ability to not flub her lines was worthy of a freaking Emmy Award. Pivoting is all she's got to work with, and she's way more pro than DJT deserves.

Too bad about the (assumed ) non-disparigment in the NDA, or she'd have a hell of a book to sell.
posted by mikelieman at 7:47 AM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

RADDATZ: Why did it take [Trump] so long to put [birtherism] to an end?

PENCE: It's over.

RADDATZ: It's not over.

That Seinfeld episode where George quits his job in a blaze of glory but changes his mind so he just goes into the office like nothing happened
posted by saturday_morning at 7:47 AM on September 18, 2016 [19 favorites]

I'd like to see the major candidates and their campaigns adopt face paint, jerseys, and large oversized foam thingies like #1 gloves or oddly shaped hats.

Nika riots, no thanks.
posted by Emmy Noether at 7:48 AM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm actually sympathetic to her.

She's out front helping an unrepentant violence encouraging hatemonger possibly become president, by her own choice. A guy that wants to ban people because of their religion. She's masterfully helping a guy who is a climate change denier. Who said black people are naturally lazy, who denied black people housing. I am not sympathetic to her because she's helping destroy what the United States is supposed to be. Fuck him, and if she's going to continue to help him, her too.
posted by cashman at 7:52 AM on September 18, 2016 [53 favorites]

As I've mentioned in multiple comments in multiple election threads, I'm doing my part to defeat Trump in Virginia by registering people to vote who are demographically likely to vote for Clinton. I can't morally stomach campaigning for her directly, but I'm more than happy to spend my time registering historically underrepresented or previously disenfranchised groups to vote.

This is all without any support from actual Democrats, BTW. I tried contacting the local NAACP, local Democratic Party, local League of Women Voters, state New Virginia Majority, and national Black Votes Matter organizations to volunteer for any voter registration drives they might be conducting in my area. The League of Women voters emailed me that they would get back to me but never did. The New Virginia Majority finally called me back only to tell me that they weren't doing anything in my part of the state, and by then it was too late to arrange for them to be guest speakers at LP meetings in those parts of the state that they are active in. The other three organizations didn't get back to me at all*.

So I took the state's online voter registrar training, ordered a "Black Votes Matter" shirt from Amazon, bought some voter registration table supplies, and started doing my own thing.

I need my 10% for Johnson so that my state delegate candidates will have ballot access next year without me having to personally spend endless days at the DMV gathering signatures. But I'm trying to get there by targeting disaffected Republicans for recruitment into the LP whilst simultaneously working to increase the pool of likely Clinton voters.

My hope is to help turn Virginia blue (which it would be already if all its adult citizens voted) so that I can do my Libertarian thing worry-free. And also because the Republican Party of Virginia is especially vile, even compared to Republicans in general.

*BTW Democrats in general seem to suck at getting back at me. I'd considered joining you once, back in the bad old days of Barr/Root, but the Democratic Freedom Caucus (the D's version of the Republican Liberty Caucus) never got back to me!
posted by Jacqueline at 7:52 AM on September 18, 2016 [15 favorites]

The Atlantic is reporting a bit of good news:

The National Institute of Civil Discourse at the University of Arizona has just come out with guidelines for debaters, the debate audience and, importantly, the moderators, that need to be heeded. Most of the guidelines are simple and obvious

[Snip]

The key, though is the moderators. The Institute’s guidelines ask moderators to address uncivil behavior by calling it out; enforce debate rules equally; hold candidates accountable for truthfulness and integrity; treat candidates equally when it comes to complexity of issues and debate rules; and be respectful in interacting with the candidates.

[Snip]

Most important, to say that when a candidate lies, the other candidate can use his or her rebuttal time to call out the lies while moderators remain silent, is to take away the rival candidate’s ability to answer questions the way they want, and instead forcing them to use their time on the other candidate’s turf. And, given Trump’s lack of policy chops, knowledge, and interest, that means a more substance-free debate.

(Emphasis mine)

This isn't your father's presidential debate format. (I'm looking at YOU, Chris Wallace.)
posted by perspicio at 7:53 AM on September 18, 2016 [40 favorites]

John Dickerson on Face the Nation holding Kellyanne's feet to the fire about Trump's birtherism, and correcting her...misrepresentations.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:53 AM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

I need my 10% for Johnson so that my state delegate candidates will have ballot access next year without me having to personally spend endless days at the DMV gathering signatures.

10% for Johnson hands Virginia to Donald Trump.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:57 AM on September 18, 2016 [45 favorites]

She's out front helping an unrepentant violence encouraging hatemonger possibly become president, by her own choice.

I go with Krusty in this...

They drove a dumptruck full of money to my house...
posted by mikelieman at 7:58 AM on September 18, 2016

Yet I *would* vote for a bonobo.

...we're all voting Hillary.
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:59 AM on September 18, 2016 [46 favorites]

I wonder if your disappointment in not getting to engage with Hillary supporters in your area (and why you're here) stems from a desire to want to be convinced to vote for her.

Nope nope nope nope nope. Can't vote for her. Can't even vote swap for her with the MeFite in Massachusetts I've vote swapped with in previous elections. I might have been able to vote-swap for Sanders, but I can no longer stomach voting (even just as part of a swap) for candidates whom I am certain are going to bomb the shit out of some kids.

You're right that I'm disappointed about not finding any local Clinton supporters to engage with, but that's because it would be nice to go out and do voter registration in a pair instead of solo.

10% for Johnson hands Virginia to Donald Trump.

Depends on where that 10% comes from! My buddies at the gun range are just as convinced that it would hand the state to Hillary Clinton.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:03 AM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

Mike Pence Says His Role Model for Vice President is Dick Cheney

Holy shit, that needs to be every headline.
posted by bongo_x at 8:03 AM on September 18, 2016 [20 favorites]

I'd be happy to vote for Jane Goodall.
posted by spitbull at 8:05 AM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Those debate guidelines are suggestions put out by a university think tank in a Medium post. There's no reason to expect that the networks or moderators will obey or even hear about them.
posted by theodolite at 8:05 AM on September 18, 2016 [7 favorites]

Depends on where that 10% comes from! My buddies at the gun range are just as convinced that it would hand the state to Hillary Clinton.

Your buddies at the gun range don't spend hours thinking about this and watching the polling.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:06 AM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

Virginia is purportedly a swing state yet it seems like the Democrats aren't even *trying* to compete in the part I live in.

So the smart and responsible thing to do when you feel like that is look at the state polls, if there are any. There have been several in Virginia this week and Clinton is up in all of them. The other smart and responsible thing to do if you're wondering about the political leanings of an area is to look up its presidential vote, not its party registration, especially in the south and double especially in the more-or-less rural south. In 2012, Lynchburg city went for Romney 55/45, which would make it quite conservative, and the surrounding counties went for Romney by 20 and 40 point margins. So it should not be surprising if the Clinton-votes-per-dollar or per-effort are lower in Lynchburg than the returns from just doing more intense efforts in NoVa, and if so that's what a smart campaign would be doing.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:07 AM on September 18, 2016 [8 favorites]

If you choose to vote for Stein, what are your reasons? Nothing about her suggests to me that she has the experience or skills to actually do the job of being president. So, maybe you agree with her stated positions. Okay, but she has not been in the positions where those beliefs get tested by actual events. I disagree with some of Clinton's actions, but she acted on the information available, reflected the will of her constituency, and made reasoned choices. And I do agree with most of her positions, and I especially respect her track record on the rights and needs of children, families, and women. But if you think Stein would be great, go vote. As far as causation, you only cause Trump to be president if you vote for him. But, by your action, you are not stopping him from becoming president. You are taking a stance that I think is flimsy, and watching a dangerous event happen, and not doing anything at all to stop it.

The people who voted for Nader, and the Green Party who nominated him, did the same thing in 2000. Nader has an interesting history, and has done a lot for consumer protection. But I think he'd be a crummy president. Not Trump-crummy-scary, but crummy. And people voted for Nader, and Bush Cheney lies caused the deaths of 125,000+ Iraqi civilians, thousands of US and allied lives, thousands of Iraqi troops, and destabilized iraq and fueled Isis and etc. That's more dead civilians than people who voted for Nader. Those Nader voters didn't cause Bush to be sort-of elected, but they stood by and let it happen. It's not causation, but a case can be made that it's depraved indifference.
posted by theora55 at 8:08 AM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah I was trying to figure out why vountary debate guidelines sure to be ignored were "good news." We all know what's gointo happen, and it will be neither civil nor fair compared to an MMA bout.
posted by spitbull at 8:09 AM on September 18, 2016

Mod note: Couple comments deleted. Once again, this is really not going to be a thread about Jacqueline and her personal views.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:10 AM on September 18, 2016 [7 favorites]

I just donated $5 for a few chances to get a seat at the Hofstra debate. *crosses fingers* I'm not even sure how I would get there, but it sounds fun.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:11 AM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Mike Pence Says His Role Model for Vice President is Dick Cheney

Trying to reassure rank-and-file Republicans that Dad won't let Trump take the car out on his own.
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:11 AM on September 18, 2016 [15 favorites]

Jacqueline:
I appreciate that you're trying to engage constructively here, but I would urge you to look at the phrase "morally stomach" as your reason for not voting for HRC.

That is going to piss a lot of people off. Her's why it pisses me off. From white woman I have heard the following:

I don't like HRC because of the Tammy Wynette quote
HRC enabled her husband to sexually abuse women (this from an instructor who repeated to her voting-age class)
And then a few cases of vague wide-eyed statements regarding morally corrupt.

There is no there there. She's not going to take away your guns. If you're worried about this, check out how hard it to amend the constitution. For love of God, I do not understand the worship of people killing machines, but please, if you don't believe me, do some reading. Because your moral objections, if they are like anything the people who've expressed themselves similarly, are based on a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Except that if people believe the sound and fury, we're all fucked.
posted by angrycat at 8:13 AM on September 18, 2016 [23 favorites]

Jacqueline, kudos for getting out into the trenches, even if I don't agree with your reasoning.

Your buddies at the gun range don't spend hours thinking about this and watching the polling.

You might be surprised.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:14 AM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

I might have been able to vote-swap for Sanders, but I can no longer stomach voting (even just as part of a swap) for candidates whom I am certain are going to bomb the shit out of some kids.

Funny story. Once again -- anyone who supported Sanders should be able to support Clinton.

And if you want to keep the killing of kids to a minimum, you have one and exactly one option on the ballot. President Thin-Skin Don is gonna have an awfully itchy trigger finger.
posted by saturday_morning at 8:15 AM on September 18, 2016 [29 favorites]

You're right that I'm disappointed about not finding any local Clinton supporters to engage with, but that's because it would be nice to go out and do voter registration in a pair instead of solo.

Where I live, we don't do door-to-door voter registration in pairs, because we can hit twice as many doors if people go solo. Sometimes newbies are really nervous about going alone, and we'll pair them up with someone initially, but we try really hard to convince them to go on their own once they've seen that it's not so scary.

And honestly, we try pretty hard to screen for people who are going to say terrible things about our candidates. We want volunteers, but we don't want volunteers who are going to actively contradict our message. It's sort of naive to think that Democrats would be willing to work with you, given your attitude towards their top-of-the-ticket candidate. It would be dumb of us to allow people to use our resources to pursue their own agendas, especially when their agendas are actively hostile to our goals.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:16 AM on September 18, 2016 [24 favorites]

I just donated $5 for a few chances to get a seat at the Hofstra debate. *crosses fingers* I'm not even sure how I would get there, but it sounds fun.

Looking at their page, um, I don't see anything about $5, or anything for non-students.
posted by cashman at 8:22 AM on September 18, 2016

The Atlantic backs the NICD debate guidelines.

Most important, to say that when a candidate lies, the other candidate can use his or her rebuttal time to call out the lies while moderators remain silent, is to take away the rival candidate’s ability to answer questions the way they want, and instead forcing them to use their time on the other candidate’s turf. And, given Trump’s lack of policy chops, knowledge, and interest, that means a more substance-free debate.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:26 AM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

cashman, it's a Clinton campaign thing.
posted by vathek at 8:28 AM on September 18, 2016

Looking at their page, um, I don't see anything about $5, or anything for non-students.

Yeah, as vathek said, it came as a "guest of the Clinton folks" email.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:30 AM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah I was trying to figure out why vountary debate guidelines sure to be ignored were "good news."

Because it was early Sunday morning (here in the PNW), I was still in bed, I was hungry for uplifiting news, and my perspiciator (TM) was still warming up.
posted by perspicio at 8:31 AM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ah. Good luck!!
posted by cashman at 8:34 AM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wow, this new Clinton ad on veterans, POWs and Trump is powerful.

It is. They've all been powerful. I hope (and suspect) that Clinton will start running more positive ads in October. The best part of the DNC was the happy, inclusive vision the Democrats offer. She and her surrogates have done that on the trail, but the ads I've seen have focused solely on Trump. As unfair as it is, the campaign narrative right now is about having to choose between two bad choices. Continuing to hit Trump I think will stop having great returns - people who would vote for Clinton know what they need to about the guy. It seems like a lot of them have forgotten what the DNC offered.
posted by one_bean at 8:34 AM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

NYT: Hate Crimes Against American Muslims Most Since Post-9/11 Era

"New data from researchers at California State University, San Bernardino, found that hate crimes against American Muslims were up 78 percent over the course of 2015. Attacks on those perceived as Arab rose even more sharply."

Trump's America.
posted by chris24 at 8:36 AM on September 18, 2016 [13 favorites]

Gusottertrout makes a good point:

I've been seeing a lot of news shows covering driverless cars lately, as if there's some sort of push to do so, and given driving is one of the largest employment segments for men without college educations, the potential removal of huge swaths of jobs from that sector is only going to make for increasing agitation and aggression among members of the group with the largest propensity for that already.

I coach non-techy folks on using computers for a living, and non-tech-oriented folks generally find the whole world of tech confusing and hateful. It makes them feel stupid and unnecessary, it shuts them out with jargon, and it makes them irrelevant. This going to keep happening at an accelerating pace.

I've wondered if the obsession with Hillary's emails isn't wrapped up in this -- she feels like a technocrat to many people. That combination of "your new boss is a woman" and the design polish of her campaign -- I would suspect it looks to many people like the world that doesn't want them.
posted by argybarg at 8:46 AM on September 18, 2016 [23 favorites]

I hope (and suspect) that Clinton will start running more positive ads in October.

Like this one.
posted by rory at 8:47 AM on September 18, 2016 [10 favorites]

“There is an otherness to this president” — Alex Castellanos, Trump super PAC strategist, on Meet The Press

So in defending Trump's birtherism, they're going from a racist dogwhistle to a less subtle racist dogwhistle?
posted by chris24 at 8:50 AM on September 18, 2016 [24 favorites]

“There is an otherness to this president”

That's like using the definition of dogwhistle as the dogwhistle.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:54 AM on September 18, 2016 [22 favorites]

Castellanos, huh? Dude, your people were treated as scary racially inferior others (vermin, terrorists, anarchist-communist infiltrators, mafiosi) not 100 years ago in the US.
posted by spitbull at 8:54 AM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

What? No, his candidate is treating what-anglos-would-call-his-people-even-though-he-would-probably-disagree as scary racially inferior others right now.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:58 AM on September 18, 2016

Trump on disgusting media: "I could name every one of them that are that way, and I – and probably some day I will."

So you're saying you have a list of un-American reporters? That you will use some day? Alrighty then.
posted by chris24 at 9:00 AM on September 18, 2016 [46 favorites]

Trump, Inspired by Nixon?
Donald Trump's real political inspiration: Richard Nixon
posted by kirkaracha at 9:03 AM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

“There is an otherness to this president”

And there's a uterus to the next one.
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:04 AM on September 18, 2016 [34 favorites]

Castellanos has his own history of birtherism.

"Let's say Mitt Romney released 100 years of tax returns tonight," said Alex Castellanos, a Republican media consultant who advised Romney in 2008. "What do you think the odds are that the Obama campaign would say, 'Oh great Mitt. Thank you! Now we can put that behind us and move on to more substantive issues like entitlement reform!' Zero."

Added Castellanos: "I'd advise Mitt to release 10 years of tax returns when Obama releases 10 years of birth certificates."
posted by chris24 at 9:05 AM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

Mike Pence continues his Trump Apology Tour:

Pence, speaking Sunday in an interview with Martha Raddatz on ABC's "This Week," said that his running mate and the Republican nominee for president wasn't at all calling for violence against the Democratic nominee for president.

"I think what Donald Trump was saying is if Hillary Clinton didn't have all that security—she'd probably be a whole lot more supportive of the Second Amendment," Pence said.

posted by kirkaracha at 9:06 AM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump's real political inspiration: Richard Nixon

Honestly, that seems like giving Trump too much credit.

His political inspirations are his ego and his id. Any resemblance to past evil presidents, living or dead, is purely coincidental.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:15 AM on September 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

Pence: "His comment was that if she didn't have all that security, she'd change her attitude about the right to keep and bear arms. And I'll bet that's probably true." [real]

I can't even. A good follow-up there might be "Governor Pence, roughly how many Americans have openly expressed a desire to assassinate Hillary Clinton and have the weaponry to do it?"

(erisfree: that's parody)
posted by holgate at 9:16 AM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

Mod note: removed mistaken parody and attendant derail, feel free to repost as fake if it's amusing
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 9:20 AM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Howard Taft and Barack Obama lived in the Philippines. Ah ha!

You don't throw POWs' under the bus like that, that decided my vote and I suspect it was early "no trump" re-bar for GOPers.
posted by clavdivs at 9:23 AM on September 18, 2016

I suspect Gov. Sixpence is feeding on Hillarys' 08' RFK gaffe, not good. Aptly fits into depolarable.
posted by clavdivs at 9:28 AM on September 18, 2016

Wow. Reince saying on #facethenation that there may be future penalties for 2016ers who didn't endorse Trump if they wana run again

The Trumpification is complete.
posted by chris24 at 9:34 AM on September 18, 2016 [32 favorites]

Add show trials and purges to the list.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:36 AM on September 18, 2016 [10 favorites]

And another possible wow.

Carl Bernstein reports that Bill Weld is considering dropping out if he thinks Johnson-Weld will help elect Trump. #JohnsonWeld2016

If he dropped and endorsed Clinton, I'd take back everything I've ever said and thought about Libertarians.
posted by chris24 at 9:37 AM on September 18, 2016 [77 favorites]

Trump campaign manager says Trump’s pre-campaign positions do not matter:

On NBC’s Meet the Press, host Chuck Todd presented Conway with a lengthy list of issues on which Trump has recently changed his stated views, including birtherism, tax cuts for the wealthy, a Muslim ban, the minimum wage, the Iraq invasion, Libya intervention, abortion, whether he would self-fund his campaign, whether to accept Syrian refugees, and Japan and nuclear weapons. “He’s totally changed his position on all these issues,” Todd noted. “Why shouldn’t voters look at this and, including the birtherism comments on Friday, and say ‘he’s just another politician who will say and do anything to get elected in the moment?’”

Conway responded, “This is a man who is running for office the first time and he’s the nominee for president. Why? Because people do not see him as a politician. You want to take statements he made, positions he took as a private citizen when he was not running, and conflate them... People see who see who he is now.” She then changed the subject, suggesting that it was in fact Hillary Clinton who is untrustworthy and less than transparent.

posted by kirkaracha at 9:38 AM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

Wait, ROU_xenophobe, how is the Trump movement discriminating against Italian Americans now?
posted by spitbull at 9:42 AM on September 18, 2016

Alex Castellanos, a Cuban American, is the guy who created the infamous Hands campaign ad for Jesse Helms.
posted by AndrewInDC at 9:44 AM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

Ah, he's Cuban-Americann, mea culpa. I had him as Italian American.
posted by spitbull at 9:45 AM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Peter Staley: So apparently we're not supposed to criticize younger voters who are planning to vote for one of the 3rd party candidates. They don't respond well, and will dig in their heels. Definitely don't insult them -- they'll double-down and start praising Johnsonstein in front of their friends. Bernie has tried to reason with them, but he's dead to them now (how dare he endorse the lying bitch!). Appeals to self-interest, or trying to trigger their empathy for those less well off (who will get screwed the most by their vote) haven't worked either. Should we try shiny baubles?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:45 AM on September 18, 2016 [14 favorites]

Conway responded, “This is a man who is running for office the first time and he’s the nominee for president. Why? Because people do not see him as a politician. You want to take statements he made, positions he took as a private citizen when he was not running, and conflate them... People see who see who he is now.”

If Chuck Todd were capable of pretending to be a journalist, he could have noted the many issues on which Trump has flip-flopped on since he became a candidate, sometimes within the same day. He could have even done so with this list of such flip-flops, put together by his own network.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:46 AM on September 18, 2016 [12 favorites]

I just saw my first "Make America Great Again" shirt in the wild today. In Connecticut. I wanted to ask where the short was made.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 9:49 AM on September 18, 2016

She then changed the subject

Doubleplusgood duckspeaker.

Does Conway get to walk away from everything she said about Trump when not on the campaign? Can we get a specific date for when Year Zero of Trumpism began, or do we just assume it's "yesterday evening", updated daily?
posted by holgate at 9:51 AM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

If Chuck Todd were capable of pretending to be a journalist, he could have noted the many issues on which Trump has flip-flopped on since he became a candidate,

All the issues he listed were flipped and flopped during Trump's campaign, though he didn't press the point.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:51 AM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Conway responded, “This is a man who is running for office the first time and he’s the nominee for president. Why? Because people do not see him as a politician. You want to take statements he made, positions he took as a private citizen when he was not running, and conflate them... People see who see who he is now.”

This lie also drives me nuts. Trump ran for the Reform party nomination in 2000. He's also been drafted for a run as Gov. of NY, which he apparently decided against, and floated the idea several times of running for Mayor of NY. He's a politician.

Also I don't understand why everything you said before you started running for office is off-limits. You don't get a clean slate the minute you declare your candidacy.
posted by dis_integration at 9:55 AM on September 18, 2016 [28 favorites]

Also I don't understand why everything you said before you started running for office is off-limits.

Um, you know darned well why Ms. Conway makes that argument. It's just that the argument has nothing to do with honesty or any other attribute of integrity.
posted by perspicio at 9:58 AM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

I canonically enter this HuffPo link as FAKE so you guys can stop linking to it as real: "The Indiana governor, an evangelical Christian, explained that he opposes the word “vice” on religious grounds. Pence said that the Bible has strict prohibitions against vice. He said the word “vice” means, among other things, “immoral” or “wicked behavior.” ... Pence was asked during his press conference if he condemned the word “vice” on Christian principles, why then didn’t he condemn the Ku Klux Klan, a white supremacist organization, that openly participates in immoral and wicked behavior? “I would,” he answered. “But if we start criticizing deplorables, we run the risk of losing half our voters.”"
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:03 AM on September 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

I coach non-techy folks on using computers for a living, and non-tech-oriented folks generally find the whole world of tech confusing and hateful. It makes them feel stupid and unnecessary, it shuts them out with jargon, and it makes them irrelevant. This going to keep happening at an accelerating pace.

Yes, exactly. That's the kind of thing I was thinking about when I mentioned in an earlier thread that many of the Trump supporters I've met aren't readers. It wasn't meant as an insult, my father and some of my friends aren't readers either, it was meant to suggest that the changes in how society is taking on information and how people are processing that is causing some greater divide than race or gender alone might explain.

It is in part perhaps the growing class divide, but talking about class in the older sense might not be the best way to address the problem, at least not without addressing the information gulf itself first.

There needs to be more talk about similarities, shared interests, and common goals that aren't based in exclusivity and mostly finding better ways to communicate complex ideas in straight forward easy to understand ways. This is something, in their perverted way, Fox news does well. They pare down ideas to a clear set of points that are easily understood often through analogies or broad claims, then sell their viewership on the nuggets of info.

Fox viewers are, in my experience, ridiculously loyal. Many don't trust any other source of news. It may be the message that Fox sells with their twist on the information they are presenting, but I'm not sure I believe that. While there's always been racism and sexism in this country, there has also been times of greater worker unity and class based affiliation. I think those things can return if people can share their knowledge and experience in more universal ways.

Many people who aren't great with processing written information or complex abstraction are excellent when it comes to interpersonal exchange. Information is shared as part of a trust network of people they know. It builds in a way almost identical to that people claim for crowd sourcing on the web, but passed on as verbal, personal exchange instead. That method is prone to distorting reality if there are weaker members in the process, but it is also open to new ideas if one can gain trust within the group.

Talking as an equal with respect to people from outside one's own normal sphere can do wonders in spreading different perspectives on the world. It's the same principle as when someone finds their son or daughter is gay or a lesbian, their perspective on LGBT rights can change because its personal rather than an abstraction.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:11 AM on September 18, 2016 [13 favorites]

New tweet from Hillary, with a new ad: So what exactly is Donald Trump hiding from voters? Pretty much everything.

As usual, only read the comments if you're braced for them.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:11 AM on September 18, 2016 [8 favorites]

And the amount of gaslighting from the Trump campaign is astonishing: you shouldn't care about anything he said years ago, he didn't say it anyway, they said it, what's wrong with you?
posted by holgate at 10:28 AM on September 18, 2016 [17 favorites]

Reince, next week:

"It is just *disgusting* that Hillary Clinton said of John McCain that she 'likes people who weren't captured.'"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:31 AM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

no other way for progressives to pull the Democratic Party to the left
The Tea Party took over the Republican Party in Maine by getting active, becoming officers of town GOP groups, getting elected to local office. We now have one of the worst governors in the country and he is hurting the state a lot. There were a lot of Sanders delegates to the Maine Dem. Convention this year. They had a lot to say about the platform. If they stay involved, they can help move the agenda. The Republicans and the Big-Money Right have moved the agenda far to the Right. We have to fight this on all fronts.
posted by theora55 at 10:31 AM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump's got the Bart Simpson approach to accountability. "I didn't do it; nobody saw me; you can't prove anything; and besides I wasn't alone." [FAKE]
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:34 AM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

"You broke my lamp!"

"No I didn't. It's my own lamp, it was broken when I found it, it was working when I gave it back, and I've never seen that lamp before in my life."
posted by saturday_morning at 10:37 AM on September 18, 2016 [16 favorites]

Re the Johnson campaigning anecdata thing, the answer is simple. Trump and Johnson are both right-wing candidates. A great many people label themselves libertarian and vote straight ticket Republican, even. It is well known that the far right and right-libertarianism are fellow travelers. Thus Trump supporters are more likely to want to engage with a Johnson supporter.

Meanwhile something nearing 100% of registered Democrats know that the Libertarian Party does not speak for them and that they share almost no political ground with right-libertarian political candidates. Johnson is about as worthy of their attention as Lyndon La Rouche is.

It's sort of like asking why there aren't cats in the dog park.
posted by Sara C. at 10:46 AM on September 18, 2016 [20 favorites]

I don't think it's nearly as simple as "Trump and Johnson are both right-wing candidates." Plenty of people are going to peel off from Clinton and vote for Johnson.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:50 AM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think it's nearly as simple as "Trump and Johnson are both right-wing candidates." Plenty of people are going to peel off from Clinton and vote for Johnson.

There is zero tension between those two statements.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:52 AM on September 18, 2016 [13 favorites]

Wow. Reince saying on #facethenation that there may be future penalties for 2016ers who didn't endorse Trump if they wana run again

The Trumpification is complete.

This strikes me as potentially an even more important story than the birther renaissance. If you're John Kasich or Jeb Bush or Ben Sasse, you now have a heck of a choice to make. Either roll over to Reince, or realize you have nothing left to lose and fully endorse HRC. Either way, serious potential consequences for any holdout #nevertrumpers.
posted by saturday_morning at 11:12 AM on September 18, 2016 [12 favorites]

Doonesbury.
posted by Talez at 11:15 AM on September 18, 2016 [40 favorites]

Either roll over to Reince, or realize you have nothing left to lose and fully endorse HRC.

Or oust Priebus from the RNC chair position.
posted by tclark at 11:18 AM on September 18, 2016 [11 favorites]

Or oust Priebus from the RNC chair position.

Fair, but if Trump were to *gulp* win, hard to imagine that effort succeeding.
posted by saturday_morning at 11:21 AM on September 18, 2016

> Plenty of people are going to peel off from Clinton and vote for Johnson.

Polls have been showing Johnson mostly picking up support from Republicans and Republican leaners, and not much from Democrats or Democratic leaners.
posted by nangar at 11:21 AM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Remember this tweet?

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
My lawyers want to sue the failing @nytimes so badly for irresponsible intent. I said no (for now), but they are watching. Really disgusting

Rick Wilson's reply: You're so full of shit it's amazing you're not surrounded by flies 24/7.
posted by Talez at 11:25 AM on September 18, 2016 [24 favorites]

The Curse of Hillary Clinton’s Ambition

Some voters seem to believe the Democratic nominee cares too much about winning.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:25 AM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

Yes, other Presidents won by half-assing it.
posted by thelonius at 11:26 AM on September 18, 2016 [26 favorites]

Christie’s claim that Trump did not ‘on a regular basis’ spout birther nonsense after 2011

This will possibly be our shortest fact check ever.

Four pinocchios.
posted by Talez at 11:27 AM on September 18, 2016 [28 favorites]

Trump sure seems to be doing his best.
posted by saturday_morning at 11:27 AM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah the whole thing smacks of effort
posted by ian1977 at 11:28 AM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

Some voters seem to believe that the Democratic nominee cares too much about winning.

................


ow ow ow my eyes that one was a record-breaking eyeroll
posted by seyirci at 11:29 AM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

Oh, Rick. You've stolen my heart from Steve Schmidt.

You naughty Republican, you.
posted by wallabear at 11:30 AM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Last one for a few... minutes... I promise!

If you're John Kasich or Jeb Bush or Ben Sasse, you now have a heck of a choice to make. Either roll over to Reince, or realize you have nothing left to lose and fully endorse HRC.

Kasich: Trump owes Obama apology for birtherism claim

It appears that Kasich has made his decision.
posted by Talez at 11:32 AM on September 18, 2016 [43 favorites]

Wired: Inside the Clinton Campaign's video operation.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:34 AM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Either roll over to Reince, or realize you have nothing left to lose and fully endorse HRC.

Kasich has two full years left in Ohio, Jeff Flake isn't up for re-election till 2018, Ben Sasse not until 2020. RNC PR BS is raising the stakes with chips he doesn't hold: the people he's threatening know it, and he knows that they know it.
posted by holgate at 11:36 AM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

When Trump is defeated (listen to my optimism ha ha ha sob) obvious anagram Reince is going to get the bums rush as well. The only thing that will save Ryan is his cowardice and how fast he will denounce Trump once the coast is clear and he can find a way to spin it as bravery.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:58 AM on September 18, 2016 [14 favorites]

Oh for the days of tar and feathers, and running people like Trump, Ryan, and Priebus out of town on a rail.
posted by rifflesby at 12:32 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

There's a rumour going around (c/o Carl Bernstein) that Bill Weld is possibly about to resign, make the Libertarian ticket implode, and endorse HRC in order to stop Trump.
posted by Talez at 12:33 PM on September 18, 2016 [16 favorites]

But will Nathan Johnson declare his support?
posted by kyrademon at 12:37 PM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

Man, that's going to DECIMATE the Libertarians' chance of winning the Presidency.

(reducing it from 0.01% to 0.009%)
posted by delfin at 12:39 PM on September 18, 2016 [19 favorites]

Talez, chis24 linked to a tweet to that effect earlier. I really hope that it's true.
posted by Surely This at 12:40 PM on September 18, 2016

It feels way too good to be true, like political fan fiction. But oooooh golly would I be so very happy.
posted by saturday_morning at 12:41 PM on September 18, 2016 [22 favorites]

All joking aside, some of my otherwise sensible friends have been talking about Johnson in a favorable way. Weld's defection could turn them right around.
posted by Surely This at 12:41 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

There's a rumour going around (c/o Carl Bernstein) that Bill Weld is possibly about to resign, make the Libertarian ticket implode, and endorse HRC in order to stop Trump.

If most Johnson supporters are right leaning and/or disaffected GOP that won't vote Clinton no matter (like is being said they are) what then is it really going to help that much? I see people either not voting which would maybe only be good for down ticket or feeling like they're being force back to Trump if they want to vote at all.
posted by Jalliah at 12:44 PM on September 18, 2016

Weld is a huge part of whatever appeal Johnson/Weld have to business-oriented republicans at least. I've heard many people say they wish the ticket were reversed. On the other hand the crazier Paulite crew were divided about Weld for VP and will be angry at Johnson if Weld bolts. ("We told you so!") Gotta say that drives Johnson down to low single digits. So where does that vote go?

Not easy to predict.
posted by spitbull at 12:45 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Either roll over to Reince, or realize you have nothing left to lose and fully endorse HRC.

Or oust Priebus from the RNC chair position.

Does anyone think Priebus is still gonna be in charge of the RNC for the next election? Seriously?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:48 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I don't know that those Johnson votes go to Clinton. In the conservative parts of my family, anyway, they would go to Trump or to staying home.
posted by misskaz at 12:48 PM on September 18, 2016

Gotta say that drives Johnson down to low single digits. So where does that vote go?

Yes. I wouldn't be jumping for joy that all these people would automatically go to Clinton. I could see this scenario backfiring and giving Trump more support.
posted by Jalliah at 12:49 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh, the defection of Weld wouldn't "automatically" make Johnson supporters switch to Clinton, but it's another way to shore up some of the shaky support that Clinton currently has. If a member of a highly-touted third-party alternative ticket says he's quitting the race to endorse Clinton, that would have a significant impact.
posted by Surely This at 12:52 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Of course if Hilz came out for cautiously moving toward legal weed (as a response to the opioid addiction epidemic perhaps?) maybe she could get some Johnson voters. Almost every sane and apparently educated person (nearly all of whom are white males, Jacqueline aside!) I've heard saying they find Johnson appealing is mostly thinking about cannabis. Or guns but that's not a concession Hillary can make and keep her base.

Wonder what it would cost Hillary to soften on weed with mainstream republican women.
posted by spitbull at 12:56 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

I dunno if I buy the idea of it backfiring. Head-to-head polls have been better for HRC than four-way ones for a while now. Given the Libs are currently pulling much more support than the Greens are, hard to believe none of that effect is due to Lib voters.

Also, what Surely This said. It's not just a matter of winning Lib support, it's also about bringing the public consciousness back to the late-primaries stage of abject horror. To the idea that keeping Trump out of office transcends party and the current electoral cycle.
posted by saturday_morning at 12:57 PM on September 18, 2016 [13 favorites]

For Politico two days ago:

Gary Johnson cuts into Clinton’s lead

"Certainly, though, he’s taking support from Clinton, too.

She leads by five points among likely voters in a two-way national race, 48 percent to 43 percent. But when Johnson and Green Party candidate Jill Stein are included, Clinton’s lead shrinks to two: she’s at 41 points, with Trump at 39, Johnson at 13, and Stein at 4. Democrats assume that all of Stein’s support comes from the Clinton column, meaning Johnson’s is split roughly evenly between Clinton and Trump.

That’s a break from the earlier Washington wisdom that Johnson’s inclusion on ballots was a clear benefit to Clinton as a go-to for conservatives uncomfortable with Trump. Instead, he has turned into a “None of These Candidates” option much like the one by that name that will also be printed on Nevada’s ballot."

So I guess the hope would be that conservatives would stick with Johnson regardless of Weld or stay home, but the more ones liberal using Johnson as a protest vote would come home to Dems.
posted by chris24 at 12:58 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

Plus I agree with Surely This that the nature of a drop out and endorsement would highlight the cross-party existential threat that Trump is and hopefully be damaging to him and helpful to the cause.

Though as said above by saturday_morning, it's probably poli-fan fiction.
posted by chris24 at 1:00 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Almost every sane and apparently educated person (nearly all of whom are white males, Jacqueline aside!) I've heard saying they find Johnson appealing is mostly thinking about cannabis.

This statement annihilated some of my evens merely by its proximity to my perspiciator.
posted by perspicio at 1:01 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah Carl Bernstein, pfffft, that guy never gets a scoop!
posted by spitbull at 1:03 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

It's... been a while
posted by saturday_morning at 1:04 PM on September 18, 2016 [13 favorites]

Didn't Hilary already commit to taking marijuana off Schedule I? I'm not sure weed is enough to get white male Johnson/Paul-bros to switch, considering that she's already done it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:04 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

perspicio, haven't you met libertarian Bros, generally in tech, thus educated, for whom weed and guns are primarily motivating causes but who are otherwise socially liberal and naive about foreign policy ("And what is Aleppo?" )?



It's an insanely white male privileged demo, but quite real.
posted by spitbull at 1:05 PM on September 18, 2016 [10 favorites]

Don't generalize too much about libertarian voters. I think a lot of people, understandably, tend to base their understanding of "libertarianism" on the self-described libertarians in their own lives – whether that's a friend or relative, random people in particular corners of the Internet that they frequent, etc. But they are not a monolith. (In particular, the way that some people treat "libertarian" and"Tea Party" as more-or-less equivalent does not jive at all with my own experience of libertarians.)

I happen to disagree, often quite vehemently, with much of the reasoning that libertarians espouse – but I don't think there's necessarily much overlap between Trumpism and libertarianism. My brother, for example, is a lifelong (and insufferably vocal) capital-L Libertarian – and he despises Trump. If the Libertarian ticket collapsed, I imagine he'd just stay home.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:05 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

There is a huge leap from "off schedule 1" to legalization or even full decrim of recreational weed. She'd have to embrace it though. And that would have definite costs for her too.
posted by spitbull at 1:07 PM on September 18, 2016

Personal anecdata: Some of my (real-world) friends are hard core Libertarians. The only reason that we're still friends is that they are actually kind, generous, thoughtful people. No, really!

I think they have selective hearing when it comes to the Libertarian agenda. They hear legal pot, marriage equality (yes, they seem to think that the Ls support that), and other social-libertarian issues. They are intelligent people who honestly believe that. I just don't know how to address that, but if Weld were to make a dramatic exit, combined with a Clinton endorsement, maybe it would make a difference.
posted by Surely This at 1:08 PM on September 18, 2016

Huh, that's interesting. I've definitely run into single-issue pot voters in the past (and they tend to be weirdly hostile for people who are obsessed with a drug that makes you mellow), but not this go round. I've run into people who have told me that they're voting straight-ticket Democrat and then Johnson, but they just really, really, really hate Hillary. And I don't think there's anything in the world that's going to make those guys vote for Clinton, although maybe I'm wrong about that.

I've also run into some "I'm going to hold my nose and vote for Clinton" voters, and maybe they'd be pushed further into that camp by a Weld defection. I would prefer, though, to work on convincing them that Clinton is not a terrible, untrustworthy crook.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:12 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think most anti-Hillary lefties who go for Johnson just take legalized weed as a sign that Libertarians are in some way socially liberal. It's just a signifier, as is the vote in the first place.
posted by argybarg at 1:13 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah, that. I'm to the left of Hillary. I like weed, but I like abortion better, and the states-rights bullshit that Johnson espouses on that issue is... not encouraging.
posted by box at 1:17 PM on September 18, 2016 [32 favorites]

If you want to end the war on drugs then you should vote for Hillary. Trump wants to crack down and expand the war on drugs, Hillary wants to curtail it further. Trump will appoint Judges, DOJ and DEA officials who will make it more difficult to conclude this war. Hillary will do the opposite. Those are your options at the moment. More work needs to be done at the state level to build a political consensus for legalization before it will go anywhere at the federal level. Voting for Johnson as a symbolic support for legalization will not help the cause, but instead undermine it.
posted by humanfont at 1:18 PM on September 18, 2016 [11 favorites]

I don't think we should just tarnish libertarians. Libertarianism has an immediate appeal and one deeply rooted in Americanism: that people should be free to pursue their own interests up until the point where that pursuit causes harm to others is hard to argue against. It requires a fair bit of dialectical thinking to understand why a situation like that necessarily leads to market monopolies and banana-republic style levels of wealth inequality. And Americans have been inundated with the notion that they bear personal responsibility for their own socio-economic status, and its very hard to cure people of that disease. They really believe there is no society, only individuals. Bizarrely they can think that and simultaneously be compassionate and sympathetic towards the suffering of others. Which is enough to convince them that there isn't something fundamentally coldhearted about individualism, even though it is is indifferent in its objective form despite its subjective manifestations not being so cold and indifferent.
posted by dis_integration at 1:24 PM on September 18, 2016 [20 favorites]

More work needs to be done at the state level to build a political consensus for legalization before it will go anywhere at the federal level.

Removing it from Schedule I is the best thing that can be done at the federal level right now, allowing for less restriction on research on both medical and social effects of legalization at the state level. If you think full legalization can pass this Congress, well, you're probably already a deadend Johnson voter anyway. The drug war can't be ended with a magic wand, but it can be gradually rolled back by incremental changes which Hilary has indicated she will pursue, above and beyond Obama's very hands-off approach.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:25 PM on September 18, 2016 [7 favorites]

My mom is the sort of educated, upper middle class, secular but above all pragmatic republican/libertarian voter who might well vote Hillary just to keep Trump out (I haven't asked her point blank yet but listening to her talk it sounds like she's so scared of Trumps fascist agenda that she's ready to hold her nose) who would, in less terrifying circumstances probably vote L. The libertarians intentionally blowing up their ticket and endorsing Hillary would absolutely send the message to her that there should be absolutely no waffling about this decision, it's too important. Vote against Trump and let our republic live to fight another day.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:26 PM on September 18, 2016 [14 favorites]

A great tweetstorm storified on how Pastor Timmons led to Trump's latest self-immolation. (And once again, like with the Khans, the people Trump demonizes most are the people who are going to bring him down.)

Josh Marshall on Pastor Timmons taking down Donald Trump

Starts with...

"I love me some Tim Kaine. But c'mon. Pastor Timmons for Veep. I don't think people quite get how much guts it takes to do what she did."
posted by chris24 at 1:29 PM on September 18, 2016 [26 favorites]

Spitbull, I...believe I get what you're saying, really. In fact, I work among such individuals. And some of my evens were just momentarily stunned by your (I'm certain unintended) Inartful Phrasing syntactical grenade, which, until the trailing phrase was incorporated and parsed in context, appeared to cast white males as constituting the great majority of the ranks of the smart and apparently educated.

I can regain the balance of the evens simply by asserting (really for my own sake, not for the sake of argument, as I don't believe there is a meaningful one for us to engage in) that education is not binary. One can be educated in all matters tech, yet be wholly ignorant about the history, principles, conventions, and benefits of civil society, the historicity of the various ideas being (re)promulgated and (re)litigated during this presidential campaign season, and consequently, the stakes. In the context of this discussion, such a person could appropriately be understood to be functionally uneducated, and thus could not be relied upon to act in his best interests.

And now I can even...carry on.
posted by perspicio at 1:32 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Obviously I didn't mean white males were better educated by definition. Oy.
posted by spitbull at 1:35 PM on September 18, 2016

> (And once again, like with the Khans, the people Trump demonizes most are the people who are going to bring him down.)

I can't believe the Kahn's speech feels like a distant memory.
posted by mrzarquon at 1:38 PM on September 18, 2016 [22 favorites]

And some of my evens were just momentarily stunned by your (I'm certain unintended) Inartful Phrasing syntactical grenade, which, until the trailing phrase was incorporated and parsed in context, appeared to cast white males as constituting the great majority of the ranks of the smart and apparently educated.

Wait, you're criticizing MY syntax?
posted by spitbull at 1:38 PM on September 18, 2016 [31 favorites]

Libertarian Party presidential nominee Gary Johnson stated over the weekend that he was "just grateful that nobody got hurt" by an explosion that injured 29 people in New York City

To be fair, he wuz hiiiiiiiiiigh! [real story, possibly fake high]
posted by petebest at 1:43 PM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

Will it really matter what I will have or will not have criticized as a private citizen in the future past present, after I have declared my candidacy for an entry level position in the Grammar Youth Squad?
posted by perspicio at 1:48 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wait, you're criticizing MY syntax?

Now spitbull and perspicio must duel to the death.
posted by kingless at 1:55 PM on September 18, 2016 [19 favorites]

Another clavdivs in training?
posted by argybarg at 1:55 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

Vincente Fox: #trump,I searched, for a Trump fan in Santander Spain,nobody,none, only POKEMONES. ,You are not welcome here either
posted by PenDevil at 1:58 PM on September 18, 2016 [8 favorites]

Hey now
posted by clavdivs at 1:58 PM on September 18, 2016 [25 favorites]

@GovGaryJohnson says he wants to ruin the two-party monopoly: “They are dinosaurs and I think we're the comet"

Got to hand it to him, that's a perfect metaphor. He's perfectly happy to destroy the country so he can claim 15% participation in the debate over who gets to rule over the nuclear wasteland.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:00 PM on September 18, 2016 [52 favorites]

It's "sin tax".
Like eating over at the Medicis'.
posted by clavdivs at 2:00 PM on September 18, 2016

I'm sure it's not actually this way, but I choose to believe the Spanish pronunciation is POKÉMONES, like "anemones"
posted by saturday_morning at 2:00 PM on September 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

> In particular, the way that some people treat "libertarian" and "Tea Party" as more-or-less equivalent does not jive at all with my own experience of libertarians.

As a fascinating counter-counter example, Senator Lisa Murkowski is up for reelection in Alaska as the Republican nominee. In 2010, she was primaried by Tea Party Candidate Joe Miller but won her senate seat on write-ins. Miller recently announced that he's joining the senate race as the Libertarian candidate. He's apparently not voting for Johnson though.
posted by cdefgfeadgagfe at 2:06 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Comets are pretty and rather insubstantial masses of ice and dirt that start melting as they approach the sun. (They can't stand the heat.)

They also had nothing to do with the extinction of dinosaurs.
posted by phliar at 2:12 PM on September 18, 2016 [16 favorites]

Even his perfect metaphor makes him sounds like a ignoramus.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:15 PM on September 18, 2016 [14 favorites]

What is a meteor?
posted by angrycat at 2:17 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

A thought I had last night, which is still partially formed, is the 18-24 year old demographic means at the oldest end, they were eight when Bush took office, and no child left behind took hold, and at the youngest, two.

I was lucky at that age to have had a decent background in the American political process, but even that was lacking. I was excited by Nader, I wanted him to fix all the things, I didn't really understand how his plans weren't going to be effective and how having a third party with no house or senate presence was pretty much idiotic.

And NCLB gutted history and social studies in exchange for standardized testing subjects (math, science).

Given a tendency for youth revolutionaries to want a single leader for immediate change (Bernie!) compared to a systemic overhaul towards progress (Hillary!) - possibly in part because they don't have much invested in the current system, combined with the tumblr history courses of social progress, makes it a very different demographic than other ones to address.

And I'm not saying those who have self taught or self educated themselves on subject matter and american history can't vote or have opinions, but there is a real difference between reading Zinn's A Peoples History of the United States and taking a course that features it, along with other material, led by an instructor to help unpack the meaning and significance of the material. And that difference isn't just specifically something i see generationally, but also in my career as talking to people who hated the fact they had to take "soft sciences" as a requirement to get their engineering degree, or who claim that higher education is for suckers.

Just that god damn, NCLB muted the entire idea of social studies, systems thinking, as something to be applied to a practical level (to have a well informed, well educated middle class is essential for a Democracy), in exchange for passing standardized tests. This may have a bigger impact on this election and those to come than we anticipate.
posted by mrzarquon at 2:17 PM on September 18, 2016 [41 favorites]

Phone banked today in Colorado Springs to cleanse myself after last night's Trump rally here in town.

Me: Hi, I'm mochapickle from the Colorado Democratic Party calling for Jane?
Them: Jane's not here, but I'll tell you right now that no one in our house is voting for that idiot Trump!

Made my day!
posted by mochapickle at 2:25 PM on September 18, 2016 [86 favorites]

> What is a meteor?

A meteor is the name for a thing as it is falling through our atmosphere, heating up and becoming luminescent.

Meteoroid vs Asteroid is really a definition in size of the object when it is in space. When it hits atmosphere, it becomes a meteor (and small bits of rock can break off a comet and become meteroids / meteors).

So technically, Earth is never hit by a comet, asteroid, or meteoroid. Once they enter the atmosphere they are now a meteor.

(or atleast that's what i remember from my astronomy class)
posted by mrzarquon at 2:26 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

> marriage equality (yes, they seem to think that the Ls support that)

Not sure how far we want to go on this derail, but the Libertarian Party has been supporting marriage equality for more than 40 years. For much of that time, I would imagine that position would have had a place of honor, right alongside drug legalization, in many people's list of reasons why the Libertarian Party could not be taken seriously.

Even now, Libertarians are objectively better than the GOP on numerous issues of critical and immediate importance, including ending the surveillance state and ending military adventurism. And like the failed War on Drugs, these are issues on which the Democratic Party has a nearly unbroken track record of cowardice.

The fact that it's a catastrophically dumb move for people who want a less terrible society to vote Libertarian at the presidential level in this election (if they live in potential tipping-point states) doesn't change the fact that we'd have a much healthier political conversation in America if the principal partisan divide were between Democrats and Libertarians rather than between Democrats and the GOP.
posted by shenderson at 2:29 PM on September 18, 2016 [16 favorites]

Chris Cillizza's latest electoral college riff in The Fix is good for the nerves: Sure, Trump has momentum. But his chances for 270 electoral votes are still dim. [WaPo]

Nothing you haven't read already but it goes down smooth.
posted by spitbull at 2:29 PM on September 18, 2016 [7 favorites]

Why It’s Still Clinton’s Race to Lose
The HuffPost Pollster average shows Clinton leading by four points nationally, 46% to 42%, which should translate into a comfortable electoral vote margin. It’s useful to remember that Barack Obama beat Mitt Romney by four points as well, 51% to 47%.
posted by madamjujujive at 2:31 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

on pronouncing pokemon in spanish. in the official artwork and on the site, it's written pokémon, but everyone i know (like, my nieces and nephews) pronounces it pokemón. which is really confusing me because it if were pokémon you'd write it pokemon with no accent. really weird. maybe i have something wrong.
posted by andrewcooke at 2:32 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

What is a meteor?


About $20/gram same as in legal states.
posted by spitbull at 2:35 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

MetaFilter: on pronouncing pokemon in spanish.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:38 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Metafilter: on the Flexibility of Language
posted by mrzarquon at 2:39 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sizzlean is a meteor....choice over bacon.
posted by ian1977 at 2:41 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

andrewcooke: I suspect the "é" is just there to signal that you don't pronounce it "poke-mon."
posted by KChasm at 2:43 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

my SO just told me that he read a book that said that evidence points to a comet (and not a meteor) hitting the now Yucatan peninsula and killing everything.

So I don't know, guys. Maybe Johnson is indeed our true savior, the teller of obscure truths.
posted by angrycat at 2:43 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Clinton's ground game is much fiercer than Trump's.

Still riding that RuPaul endorsement, I see. Fine with me.
posted by rokusan at 2:44 PM on September 18, 2016 [8 favorites]

> Metafilter: on the Flexibility of Language

I totally forgot the original starting premise of that sketch was "could the english language support demagoguery."

Well, I guess we get to find out now.
posted by mrzarquon at 2:45 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

MetaFilter: on pronouncing pokemon in spanish.

I was in Mexico when the iMac landed. There was a period of weeks, maybe a few months, when the media and people on the street tried the obvious Spanish pronunciation, eeMac.

It didn't stick, which is too bad, since a couple years later, eeFon would have sounded positively adorable.
posted by rokusan at 2:48 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

the Libertarian Party has been supporting marriage equality for more than 40 years.

♫ A spoonful of pretending to give a shit about personal freedoms helps the laissez-faire capitalism go down. ♫
posted by Sys Rq at 2:48 PM on September 18, 2016 [37 favorites]

Going down the meteor rabbit hole - its more referring to the visual of the streak of light in the sky, and not the object causing it.

http://www.universetoday.com/100075/infographic-whats-the-difference-between-a-comet-asteroid-and-meteor/
posted by mrzarquon at 2:49 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

shenderson, I thought that the libertarian position on marriage equality amounted to the "let the states decide" bullshit that Rand Paul espouses. If the L's official policy is better than that, I stand corrected. It does make me think of Johnson's "let the states decide" position on a woman's right to chose. That might be telling in terms of his credibility as a presidential candidate (viability notwithstanding).
posted by Surely This at 2:53 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

I always wondered why the state level was the sphere of government that libertarians decided should be the arbiter of laws? Why not just drill straight down to the Home Owners Association?
posted by PenDevil at 2:56 PM on September 18, 2016 [52 favorites]

Surely This, that's right. A fundamental contradiction in (g)libertarian discourse on "civil rights" is that they don't believe the state should guarantee such rights except in the most abstract meaning of "freedom," including freedom for private individuals and enterprises to discriminate on any basis they so choose (in a world where all is privatized no less). Rand Paul got in some trouble over this stuff in the primaries, when he was forced to admit he would have voted against the 1964 Civil Rights Act for its restrictions on private businesses that serve publics.

It's easy to be for civil rights in the abstact when you're a straight white male with money or property and have no responsibility for enforcing anyone else's rights via state power or your now non-existent taxes.
posted by spitbull at 2:59 PM on September 18, 2016 [13 favorites]

And to be clear by "the state" I mean the abstract state, federal or state or local.
posted by spitbull at 3:00 PM on September 18, 2016

I always wondered why the state level was the sphere of government that libertarians decided should be the arbiter of laws?

Libertarians oppose government involvement in employer-worker transactions. You do the math.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:01 PM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

I always wondered why the state level was the sphere of government that libertarians decided should be the arbiter of laws? Why not just drill straight down to the Home Owners Association?

Have you been to Pennsylvania? There are Libertarians just like that. 'Why should HARRISBURG tell us what to do!"
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 3:02 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

we'd have a much healthier political conversation in America if the principal partisan divide were between Democrats and Libertarians rather than between Democrats and the GOP.

This is the stance I've been taking with my Libertarians friends. Hey, if you trend conservative, hell yes I think Libertarian is a better choice than the GOP. I'd much rather have the Libertarians as my opposition because I feel at least they can be reasoned with since they don't base most of their platform on "it's God's will."

BUT I always point out how antithetical Libertarianism is to progressive goals and ideals, so that hopefully the people I know who were supporting Bernie and now talking about Johnson can see how illogical that is.
posted by threeturtles at 3:07 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

This is ultimately why I find discussions with my L friends so frustrating. Did I mention that they're basically really kind and thoughtful people? I walk a tightrope talking about the election with them. I want to win them over in the effort to defeat Trump, but they seem to cling to their pie-in-the-sky Libertarianism in a very naïve way. (Is that the correct Wikipedia spelling?)
posted by Surely This at 3:07 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

And there's a uterus to the next one.

Gentle reminder that organs are not the same as gender.
posted by Deoridhe at 3:08 PM on September 18, 2016 [17 favorites]

I always wondered why the state level was the sphere of government that libertarians decided should be the arbiter of laws?

It's a very current way of thinking about the US Government.
Circa 1790, I think, though I wasn't in the room where it... oh, nevermind.
posted by rokusan at 3:22 PM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

What this thread needs is more Mothra fairies. Just sayin...
.
posted by y2karl at 3:30 PM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

i read that as 'Mothra fries'
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:36 PM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

The highest level of government that a Libertarian supports is the one they or those sympathetic to them are capable of controlling at that moment.

This is also true of the whole right side of the spectrum and most of the left.
posted by delfin at 3:38 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

(Karnak the Magnificent) What do you get when Mechagodzilla predicts which way Mothra will dodge?
posted by delfin at 3:40 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

I recently dated a guy who had been a pretty hardcore Libertarian in his youth, and while not as closely hewing to it these days, was way more in the not-connected-to-reality, more-statistical-than-thou mode than I could bear. He refuses to vote, and as he is a hardcore atheist, it was noteworthy that he regarded his refusal to vote as pretty much a religious position. I asked him why and got a long answer about how flawed American democratic process is, with detailed descriptions of not one, but two more acceptable forms of democratic process, that he would deign to participate in. I should also say that his explanation led off with a mathematical discussion of why his vote "wouldn't matter", comparing it to lottery statistics--by which he actually meant, wouldn't be the deciding factor. Because hey, if he's not the individual who decides it, why bother at all?

Truly, it was one of the most breathtaking displays of privilege I've ever seen. Well off white dude? What's the worst that could happen to him? He can just opt out, no bigs.

When my grandmother was born, (white) women's votes weren't recognize across the US. When my mother was born, women couldn't have their own bank accounts and credit cards and if it were possible at all to get birth control, they needed their husband's permission. When I was born, second-wave feminism hadn't really gotten off the ground and there were so many barriers that fell during my youth and young adulthood. When my kids were born, reproductive freedom had been on the ropes for years.

This guy had girl children and was so content to just sit atop his high horse of Libertarian principles... it was really gross, and I lost a lot of respect for him to hear it.
posted by Sublimity at 3:42 PM on September 18, 2016 [43 favorites]

Have we already covered that Mitch McConnell led "Lock her up" chants while stumping for Trump? Because that's a thing the current senate majority leader did.

Deplorable is too cromulent a word for these garbage people.
posted by strange chain at 3:45 PM on September 18, 2016 [49 favorites]

Sublimity...I'm surrounded by those guys. The worst of it is, and what makes them more unbearable than even a wild eyed trump supporter? They think their so damned clever, like they cracked the code. Lazy lazy privileged douchery.
posted by ian1977 at 3:46 PM on September 18, 2016 [12 favorites]

Altogether

Getting a viable multi-party system in the United States is a whole different thing.
posted by Twain Device at 3:50 PM on September 18, 2016 [13 favorites]

Wouldn't the proper way to get a multi party system be from local elections up?
posted by ian1977 at 3:55 PM on September 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

Wouldn't the proper way to get a multi party system be from local elections up?

But that would require real work and time, building an organization, and having to face voters with real world positions they'd actually have to try to live up to.
posted by chris24 at 4:02 PM on September 18, 2016 [25 favorites]

What major scheduled events are on the docket this week?
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:02 PM on September 18, 2016

What major scheduled events are on the docket this week?

Wasn't Clinton's speech to millennials going to be tomorrow?
posted by chris24 at 4:03 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

I am a little surprised that I'm saddened that McConnell would intentionally invoke the "lock her up" rhetoric but I am. :(
posted by R343L at 4:04 PM on September 18, 2016 [11 favorites]

I am a little surprised that I'm saddened that McConnell would intentionally invoke the "lock her up" rhetoric but I am. :(

Me too. As big as a douche nozzle McConnell is I expected he of all people to respect the invisible lines that govern the decorum of sitting senators. Sure not doing his job is playing politics but cheering on the complete abandonment of the rule of law?

We're through the looking glass. Now we're just seeing who else Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber are bringing along for the ride.
posted by Talez at 4:07 PM on September 18, 2016 [10 favorites]

Well off white dude? What's the worst that could happen to him? He can just opt out, no bigs.

Among my friends I have less Libertarians and more of the equivalent Stein voters. When questioned, they literally seem to have no idea what she actually stands for, but they like her moral standpoint in showing up at protest rallies. Many of them are secretly (or not so secretly) anti-vax with their kids and go in for reading Natural News or other equivalently woo news sources and Stein seems like she wouldn't make them feel bad for that position. If you try to discuss with them, they will start talking about Clinton and Palestine and how they might have supported Sanders, but... They definitely don't want Trump, but seem happy to let other voters get them to that point (which is in line with their position on vaccination, I guess.)

One of the things this election has brought me is that I actually sat down and read most of Stein's position statements and also the Green party material. In the past, I have always thought of her positively, without much information. Mostly because I'm familiar with the European Green parties from living there so long and I find they have some really smart things to say in Europe. But I do not get the Green party in the US at all. They seem to have nothing in common with the European Greens. They don't seem to be doing much in local elections and Stein's positions on many things are frankly awful. I'm pretty far to the left, but I'd honestly prefer Johnson.
posted by frumiousb at 4:08 PM on September 18, 2016 [17 favorites]

But that would require real work and time, building an organization, and having to face voters with real world positions they'd actually have to try to live up to.

Well, third party presidential runs do provide the use of bringing some spotlight to groups that would be even more ignored during state and local elections.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:09 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm phone banking currently and just overheard one of the organizers mention that the "persuasion portion" of the campaign hasn't begun yet. Color me intrigued...
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:09 PM on September 18, 2016 [26 favorites]

McConnell is the guy who stated at the very outset of Obama's first term that the Republicans should set making him a one-term president as Job One. The "lock her up" stuff is just icing on the shit cake that is Mitch McConnell. So yeah, fuck that guy.
posted by Surely This at 4:12 PM on September 18, 2016 [28 favorites]

Johnson recently tweeted he doesn't believe in mandatory vaccines, so he and Stein have even more in common.
posted by emjaybee at 4:13 PM on September 18, 2016 [16 favorites]

Sublimity, for the ones who insist they'll protest "the evils of the system" by not voting, I push the idea that they should vote, but hand in a blank ballot, so's to prove that they're not just too lazy to bother.

Also, one blank ballot will be believed to be an accident. A handful of them would be a meaningless protest vote. More than that - several dozen in the same district - would cause head-scratching, and at least one loser of a local school board election to say, "okay, who are these people? Obviously, they didn't care for my opponent, so what could I have done to convince them to vote for me?"

Of course, the majority of the "I don't vote" protestors couldn't actually hold to that if faced with a ballot with boxes to mark in a state with measures as well as candidates on the ballot. They're not so much protesting the voting system as hiding from it.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:14 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

Definitely fuck that guy. My only surprise is that he has apparently decided to get right down into the shit for all to see rather than attempting to still maintain the outward appearance of an adult professional.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:16 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

So what happens if Trump gets elected and he doesn't lock HRC up, doesn't start building a wall, doesn't do anything he's said? His supporters are armed and dangerous.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 4:17 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Well off white dude? What's the worst that could happen to him? He can just opt out, no bigs.

Speaking as a cishet white dude myself (not well off, but stable anyway): this shit just blows my mind. Like I don't blame anyone for presenting this problem because it's real. The demographics show how many well off white dudes apparently don't really care about the damage Trump will do.

The fact that so many guys who fit my same demographics plainly don't give a shit about anyone else leaves me stunned. Like I don't get how they can just not care about the women in their lives, or how they can not care about anyone who isn't white--like you literally have no friends of color at all? Nobody you care about? You really live in that kind of a bubble?

But sure, let's play this game. Trump offers a million reasons why guys in this demographic should care about this race and should be screamingly alarmed by the prospects of a Trump win. Even if you don't give a damn about anyone else (and fuck you for that, btw):

He's still likely to get us into another fucking war. Maybe several. Nuclear action isn't just on the table for him; he'll play with it like a novelty salt shaker.
He talked about fixing the debt by having our creditors take a haircut. Have we forgotten about that?
The mocking McCain as a POW thing? The Purple Heart thing? His advocacy of torture? Putin? That shit is real. That matters. WTF.

...and now I realize I'm preaching to the choir and nobody on the blue needs to be reminded of this, so I'll stop. But for fuck's sake, there's something really wrong with you apart from racism and/or sexism if you're a SWM and you're thinking Trump is a reasonable choice.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:19 PM on September 18, 2016 [32 favorites]

I'm not convinced that a multiparty system has any benefits over a two party system.
posted by humanfont at 4:20 PM on September 18, 2016 [8 favorites]

Also, one blank ballot will be believed to be an accident. A handful of them would be a meaningless protest vote. More than that - several dozen in the same district -

walkin' in, handin' in a blank ballot, singin' a bar of "Alice's Restaurant" and walkin' out? Friends, they may think it's a MOVEMENT!
posted by uosuaq at 4:22 PM on September 18, 2016 [18 favorites]

there's something really wrong with you apart from racism and/or sexism if you're a SWM and you're thinking Trump is a reasonable choice.

Cishet white dude as well, and have come to the sad conclusion that preserving white supremacy and patriarchy is all it takes for most. Racism/misogyny is a helluva drug.
posted by chris24 at 4:24 PM on September 18, 2016 [8 favorites]

And if there's two of you doin' it, nowadays they can even marry you there while you wait.
posted by delfin at 4:24 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm not convinced that a multiparty system has any benefits over a two party system.

It allows nuanced approaches to situations that don't fit nicely into either-or solutions, and people don't have to ally themselves to the platform where the best they can say is "I don't hate 51% of these goals" in order to get anything done.

It does add complexity, which needs to be supported by law to be effective, and there is no easy, simple way to get from where we are now to that complexity.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:26 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

Also, one blank ballot will be believed to be an accident. A handful of them would be a meaningless protest vote. More than that - several dozen in the same district - would cause head-scratching, and at least one loser of a local school board election to say, "okay, who are these people? Obviously, they didn't care for my opponent, so what could I have done to convince them to vote for me?"

Of course, the majority of the "I don't vote" protestors couldn't actually hold to that if faced with a ballot with boxes to mark in a state with measures as well as candidates on the ballot. They're not so much protesting the voting system as hiding from it.

It comes down to the representative government in the US breaking down over the last century. When they were first forming the Congress they posed the question of how many people to put into a district. They started at 40,000 people and after some debate brought the first Congress down to 30,000 people in a district. The number of house members hasn't increased since 1913. That has not nearly kept pace with the inflation in population. Now we're up to 700,000 people on average per congressional district.

It's trivial to not to care when you're 1/700,000th of a voice in the only process you get to directly control.

If we had districts with a reasonable number of people in them again with a chance to get a candidate more closely identifying with their views, we could get people excited again. IMHO the house just needs to turn every district into 15 seats and apportion the votes accordingly on a party basis. You only need 6.7% of the popular vote to get a seat. It lets people come together and see results as part of a process instead of just showing up to get blow the fuck out every election.

I'm not convinced that a multiparty system has any benefits over a two party system.

Multi-party leaves far more room for alliance and consensus building. For instance if we had a proper multi-party parliament style government in the US you could see probably six or seven parties. You'd have your Socialists, Progressives, Liberals, Moderates, Eisenhowers, Tea Party/Constitutionalists and possibly, depending on the state of the nation, Libertarians.

No longer would a Republican be beholden to the primarying of the district. Progressives, Liberals and Moderates would probably do most of the governing with the Eisenhowers keeping them in check on spending and pushing the military side of things. Socialists would bitch that we still have capitalism while "constitutionalists" would sit there saying the whole thing is corrupt and only show up to draw a paycheck.

It's much harder for a multi-party system to break down when every party has a fair chance at fighting for representation. A majority can usually find consensus on most things.
posted by Talez at 4:29 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

I've noticed in the white dude commenter folks, largely on radio, that even when they are liberal, they have a real eagerness to sorrowfully shake their heads over everything Clinton is doing wrong--too open, too closed, too old, too loud, too soft-spoken. Whatever heat she's taking, she brought it on herself. And the pattern is really striking, because it reminds me a lot of how guys react when you tell them about some shit you got harassed on as a woman.

It's not necessarily coming from a bad place, I think; it's more than when you're a white guy, there is almost always a way to win. You just have to know the tricks, do the moves, say the thing. Like they did!

There is no ability to recognize that when you are not a white guy, the cheat codes don't work for you. Go around the system and you're illegitimate; go through it by the book and you're rigid, unimaginative. And then there's all the extra rules for women; be nice, be pretty, be soft but not too soft, flatter men, never make them feel threatened. They don't even know about those rules, but we women sure do.

And so when the polls drop or a woman doesn't overcome all the barriers, well, they sorrowfully conclude, clearly she just wasn't good enough.
posted by emjaybee at 4:32 PM on September 18, 2016 [85 favorites]

Well, Mothra 2016 beats Giant Meteor 2016 in my book.
posted by y2karl at 4:32 PM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

But I do not get the Green party in the US at all. They seem to have nothing in common with the European Greens. They don't seem to be doing much in local elections and Stein's positions on many things are frankly awful. I'm pretty far to the left, but I'd honestly prefer Johnson.

As a British Green, the US Greens remind me a lot of the 1990s UK Green Party (that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot bargepole). We've just had an attack of the sensibles over the last decade as the splintering of Labour's activist base post-Iraq meant that a number of their more sensible activists ended up in a party that looked left wing that wasn't interested in playing Judean Peoples' Front with the SWP and the rest.

Where that Green Party came from was a position of immense privilege and all the worst sides of Middle Class Hippiedom. Population Control was a regular thing on the agenda (as opposed to something most younger Greens look at each other and roll our eyes at before heading to the barricades). Highly eurosceptic (Nigel Farage was a member before he founded UKIP) that Green Party wanted to turn England into a nice country. Where nice = looks good and doesn't upset the middle classes. With the countryside being a rolling pastoral romantic fantasy based on an England that never was.

I'm exaggerating a little for comic effect but it's the same sensibilities I see in the US Green Party as we've worked to marginalise in the UK Green Party. The nice middle class people who just want everything to look and be nice.

And on another note Cthulhu 2016 had to give up his time honored slogan of "Why vote for the lesser evil?"
posted by Francis at 4:34 PM on September 18, 2016 [12 favorites]

For the record, my apparent swipe at clavdivs above was affectionate. I've been here on MeFi since 1874, and I can vouch for clavdivs as the Captain Beefheart/Firesign Theatre of commenters.
posted by argybarg at 4:36 PM on September 18, 2016 [20 favorites]

too open, too closed, too old, too loud, too soft-spoken

Yeah, that seems to be Clinton's lot in life. Which is why her HONY posts were so moving. She knows what she has to deal with, and instead of complaining, she just soldiers on. She has moved way up in my estimation in recent months.
posted by Surely This at 4:37 PM on September 18, 2016 [24 favorites]

It's trivial to not to care when you're 1/700,000th of a voice in the only process you get to directly control... If we had districts with a reasonable number of people in them again with a chance to get a candidate more closely identifying with their views, we could get people excited again. IMHO the house just needs to turn every district into 15 seats and apportion the votes accordingly on a party basis.

Are you proposing a 6,525 member house of representatives?
posted by dis_integration at 4:37 PM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

Are you proposing a 6,525 member house of representatives?

Hmm... Couldn't be more dysfunctional than what we've got now.
posted by mikelieman at 4:39 PM on September 18, 2016 [11 favorites]

Mother Jones: Donald Trump Is Teaching the Whole World How to Lie

Donald Trump lies practically every time he opens his mouth. That's hardly even notable anymore. What is still notable is the corrosive effect he has on nearly everyone who enters his orbit. His kids lie without compunction. His spokespeople lie without compunction. His campaign manager—until recently a fairly normal conservative—lies without compunction. His surrogates lie without compunction. Everyone who spends any time around him seems to inhale the lesson that in the modern media environment, there's simply no penalty for lying, no matter how obvious the lying is.[...]

Before he hooked up with Trump, Christie was a relatively normal politician. He'd spin, he'd exaggerate, he'd evade, and he'd conceal. But now he doesn't bother. He just tells simpleminded lies with no evident concern for the fact that he'll get called out on them. Trump has taught him that being fact checked doesn't matter. Getting air time for the lie is all that matters.

I think this is going to have a lasting effect on politics. I am particularly disturbed by the use of Trump's mirror because it works. So from now on when someone in politics has made an error or lied or has something disturbing in their background, they can just turn around and pin the problem on their opponent. And with social media, the canny politician can bypass the fact-checking media and tell the big lie directly to chosen audience.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:40 PM on September 18, 2016 [53 favorites]

And then some bastard calls for a roll-call vote and the government shuts down.
posted by delfin at 4:40 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

And then some bastard calls for a roll-call vote and the government shuts down.

Smartphone app. Done in minutes.
posted by mikelieman at 4:41 PM on September 18, 2016

Are you proposing a 6,525 member house of representatives?

Yep. That's exactly what I'm proposing.

And then some bastard calls for a roll-call vote and the government shuts down.

You have two fingerprint readers on a desk, one for yes, one for no. Every member just puts their thumb on the appropriate reader. Leave the vote open for however long is appropriate.
posted by Talez at 4:42 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

It's the TWENTY FIRST fucking century people. Let's evolve Democracy a bit.
posted by mikelieman at 4:42 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

Smartphone app. Done in minutes.

Christ, have we not had enough phone-based political scandals already?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:43 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Let's evolve Democracy a bit.

blasphemer! democracy was created in 6 days, 240 years ago!
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:44 PM on September 18, 2016 [28 favorites]

Christ, have we not had enough phone-based political scandals already?

meh. If Google Pay is secure enough for Chase Bank to trust with my Visa account, it's not that it can't be done, it's all about priorities.
posted by mikelieman at 4:46 PM on September 18, 2016

The House already votes using an electronic system.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 4:46 PM on September 18, 2016

The fact that so many guys who fit my same demographics plainly don't give a shit about anyone else leaves me stunned. Like I don't get how they can just not care about the women in their lives, or how they can not care about anyone who isn't white--like you literally have no friends of color at all? Nobody you care about? You really live in that kind of a bubble?

This is my argument against voting third-party, as well. The idea that you have to "vote your conscience" is inherently self-serving. Who you vote for doesn't matter nearly as much as who wins.

If you consider yourself a progressive and are entertaining voting for Stein or even not voting at all, think about your reasons for doing so. Is it to appease your conscience? Or because you would feel icky voting for someone you don't like or respect? Or to prove your progressive bona fides to your peers? Because all of those are selfish reasons.

Because [spoiler alert]: Stein is not going to win. Your vote will result in one of only two outcomes: either helping Clinton win or helping Trump win. Which will it be? Because a true progressive would put aside their own personal needs and do what's best for those marginalized and disenfranchised people they claim to care about.

And that choice has never been clearer.
posted by rocket88 at 4:46 PM on September 18, 2016 [36 favorites]

I just don't know how a legislative body that size would function. Deliberative bodies like that function well when you can form coalitions and alliances. A congress of 6,000+ would need to form its own meta-congress and elect people to represent the representatives.
posted by dis_integration at 4:47 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Many of them are secretly (or not so secretly) anti-vax with their kids and go in for reading Natural News or other equivalently woo news sources and Stein seems like she wouldn't make them feel bad for that position.

Swap [anti-vax, Natural News, Stein] with [racist, Fox News, Trump] and you've got the basket of deplorables.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:48 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

Doesn't the NH House have like a bazillion members? It doesn't seem to work out great for them most of the time.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:48 PM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

Regarding "lock her up," I have this joke I make with my fellow educators.

Sometimes, we have to chaperone dances. Want to feel old? Chaperone a dance. Anyhow, the worst job as chaperone is dance sheriff. You watch the dance floor to make sure none of the kids are dancing inappropriately.

Now, back when your old Uncle Joey was in high school, my classmates and I were busted for doing inappropriate dancing ourselves. Like sometimes when we slow danced, our hips would come together. That sort of stuff. We were young and wild.

Kids these days, though! When they're not too busy hanging out on my lawn or playing their rock and roll too loud, they go to dances (often unwillingly) and then they don't even face their dance partners anymore. All the stuff we used to get busted for? That's all ok. Chaperones have ceded that ground. We now have to keep lap dances from actively happening at school sponsored proms and such.

The joke we make is that in twenty years, these kids will be chaperones and will be working in a world where lap dance is the norm and there will be some popular kinds of dancing that they have to patrol that make their dancing look tame. Haha! Jokes on them!

But the thing is, my generation helped normalize the dancing that allowed the current style of dancing to eventually arise. We didn't know what we were doing - we just wanted to shake shake shake our booties and maybe get to second base on the dance floor. We moved the Overton window on dirty dancing, I suppose.

So now Mitch McConnell has helped normalize the practice of trying to make your duly elected president illegitimate. I'm sure this gives him the same cheap 80's-prom boner-thrill that slow dancing to 'Islands in the Stream" (not proud) gave me back in my salad days. But you know, his "Freedom" caucus cohort is going to rue this day when the same or worse is done to their president in 4-8-12 years and they'll ask themselves (perhaps in David Byrne's voice) " how did we get here?" They'll likely blame the Democrats and probably Rap music.

On preview - same thing with Trump and lies.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:50 PM on September 18, 2016 [21 favorites]

People interested in the idea of a very large legislative body should check out New Hampshire's House of Representatives, with between 375 and 400 representatives for 1.3 million people, paid $200 per annum. It's a clusterfuck.

on preview: jinx
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:50 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

I just don't know how a legislative body that size would function. Deliberative bodies like that function well when you can form coalitions and alliances. A congress of 6,000+ would need to form its own meta-congress and elect people to represent the representatives.

In a typical parliamentary system you have ministers looking after major executive functions which doesn't really fly in the United States since the executive is its own discrete branch. I assume you'd develop some quasi-ministership for each party, devolve most of the sausage making to committees and have those committee members report back to their parties as a whole.
posted by Talez at 4:51 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

There is no ability to recognize that when you are not a white guy, the cheat codes don't work for you. Go around the system and you're illegitimate; go through it by the book and you're rigid, unimaginative. And then there's all the extra rules for women; be nice, be pretty, be soft but not too soft, flatter men, never make them feel threatened. They don't even know about those rules, but we women sure do.

And so when the polls drop or a woman doesn't overcome all the barriers, well, they sorrowfully conclude, clearly she just wasn't good enough.

That is almost painful to read, emjaybee, because it is so true. I know people get tired of hearing about the misogyny present in this campaign but it is almost as though Hillary Clinton is forced to carry a hundred pound weight on top of her head at all times and pretend it is invisible, while Donald Trump gets to waltz around free as a bird. There is always an extra burden whether you can see it or not and there are times I nearly break into a cold sweat thinking about how much more she has to prep for the debates. She has to be like this and not like that and use her voice in a non-threatening way but with authority and so on and so on. God forbid she just stand on stage an answer the questions normally and without thought.

What are the odds we will be reading about what she wears?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:52 PM on September 18, 2016 [45 favorites]

As an almost-lifetime resident of California (born in Ohio, but family moved long before I was old enough to vote), I am grossly resentful of the fact that the half-million residents of Wyoming have 76 times the voting power in the Senate than the 38 million people in California. And because of that, 3 Wyoming electoral votes (1 per under 200K) versus 55 for California (1 per 700K). What difference does it make? Do you know the most famous politician to come from Wyoming? Dick Fucking Cheney. I rest my case.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:52 PM on September 18, 2016 [13 favorites]

So what happens if Trump gets elected and he doesn't lock HRC up, doesn't start building a wall, doesn't do anything he's said?

Blame it on anyone except himself, and his supporters will believe him.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:52 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

IIRC it's $200 per biennium. But yeah it's pretty far out towards the "catastrophic thunderfuck" end of the spectrum.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:54 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

People interested in the idea of a very large legislative body should check out New Hampshire's House of Representatives, with between 375 and 400 representatives for 1.3 million people, paid $200 per annum. It's a clusterfuck.

New Hampshire doesn't enforce party representation to popular vote results and instead uses the rather inferior plurality-at-large. They don't get minor party representation and the entire system is a clusterfuck.
posted by Talez at 4:55 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

The House certainly needs to be larger, not to get people invested in democracy again, but because of Wyoming. As things stand now, lightly populated states are either massively overrepresented or underrepresented, because 740K blocks of people is not enough granularity to even remotely accurately scale the sizes of states downwards. Wyoming has one representative per 586,000 people, and Rhode Island has one per 528,000 people. Montana, unlucky enough to be right under a threshold in the last census, has one per 1,032,000 people. Yes, Rhode Island is nearly twice as powerfully represented in the House as Montana is, thanks to being right over the one-rep threshold.

Now, no apportionment scheme is perfect, but we'd basically need to increase the size of the house to at least 545 members in order to ensure that Wyoming isn't of necessity overrepresented (no matter how we do roundoff, since rounding to zero is not actually an option).
posted by jackbishop at 4:55 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

We have a 435-member Congress and look at some of the freaks, dingbats and full-blown wackaloons who get in. Imagine what could happen with one fifteen times as large.

On a related note, the Official Monster Raving Loony Party _really_ needs a solid American cousin.
posted by delfin at 4:55 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

What are the odds we will be reading about what she wears?

1?
posted by petebest at 4:56 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

I've begun to wonder if Clinton has plans on the off chance that she doesn't win. We are still a nation of laws and she can't just be locked up for losing an election but I worry for her. There are some pretty nasty, vindictive people in power who want her punished for daring to run.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:56 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

I've begun to wonder if Clinton has plans on the off chance that she doesn't win. We are still a nation of laws and she can't just be locked up for losing an election but I worry for her. There are some pretty nasty, vindictive people in power who want her punished for daring to run.

I worry about her becoming America's Tymoshenko if Trump wins.
posted by Talez at 4:58 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

If we had districts with a reasonable number of people in them again with a chance to get a candidate more closely identifying with their views, we could get people excited again.

State-level races offer a more reasonable ratio of constituents to members. Yes, they're gerrymandered; yes, ballot access makes it a mess; yes, state legislatures have become stenographers for DC lobby shops and single-interest groups; but states are the primary governmental agents for a lot of shit, and Americans mostly seem indifferent to the tier of government that their country invented. This translates into limited oversight of state government outside of media sources actually based in state capitals.

(435 for the House is ridiculous; 6,000 would also be ridiculous.)
posted by holgate at 4:58 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

The best solution would be to combine low population states into higher population states. That is, sadly, a political non-starter. But it would solve so many problems and be far more efficient.
posted by Justinian at 4:59 PM on September 18, 2016

I've begun to wonder if Clinton has plans on the off chance that she doesn't win.

Since she's wealthier than Trump, perhaps retire and enjoy the peace and quiet with the family?
posted by mikelieman at 4:59 PM on September 18, 2016 [7 favorites]

Seriously though, there's ZERO chance of her being arrested. The crazies with semi automatic rifles and 30 round magazines though? They're a real risk.
posted by mikelieman at 5:01 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Garrison Keillor op ed in WaPo: Hillary Clinton’s concrete shoes

Clinton didn’t have a prolonged adolescence and fiction was not her ambition. She doesn’t do dreaminess. What some people see as a relentless quest for power strikes me as the good habits of a serious Methodist. Be steady. Don’t give up. It’s not about you. Work for the night is coming.

The woman who does not conceal her own intelligence is a fine American tradition, going back to Anne Bradstreet and Harriet Beecher Stowe and my ancestor Prudence Crandall, but none has been subjected to the steady hectoring and jibber-jabber that Clinton has. She is a major-party nominee who is being pictured in prison stripes by the opposition. She is the first Cabinet officer ever to be held personally responsible for her own email server, something ordinarily delegated to I.T. The fact that terrorists attacked a U.S. compound in Libya under cover of darkness has been held against her, as if she personally was in command of the defense of the compound, a walkie-talkie in her hand, calling in reinforcements.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:03 PM on September 18, 2016 [57 favorites]

I mean seriously combining North and South Dakota into one state named Dakota is such a no brainer. DAKOTA.
posted by Justinian at 5:03 PM on September 18, 2016 [10 favorites]

Well, because of her status as FLOTUS, she will always have secret service protection, so at least there's that.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:04 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

The (at least partial) antidote to gerrymandering and some other problems would be to legally require all congressional districts to be based on existing local political borders... cities and counties. If a county is too small for a congressional district, combine it with neighboring counties. If it's big enough for several districts, make all of them 'at large' seats that everyone in the jurisdiction all vote over. Or if you insist on making the Senate be based on geography and not population, change from 2 seats per state to 1 per county.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:05 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, Jeb! was just on the Emmys doing a bit with Jimmy Kimmel, so I guess he's doing okay.

2016, everyone. 2016.
posted by yasaman at 5:06 PM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

Looking at other nations taken over by Fascists, I wouldn't think Hillary would be safe from malicious prosecution. And her Secret Service protection? Gone in 60 seconds. (Fortunately, since I don't consider Trump a true Fascist, just a true Kleptocrat, he may not bother)
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:08 PM on September 18, 2016

So, just seeing what the Chuck was up lately, I was begoogled with links to right-wing "web sites" with titles like Chuck Todd, liberal media darling, warns GOP against going after Hillary

The story is about Chuckhead warning Das Trümp that health stories won't play as well anymore. But i was intrigued at how he's supposedly a liberal media (ha!) darling (ha!ha!).

I wonder if thats his, or his masters' influence to false-equivalate like a sales weasel. "Can't be seen as too hard on the Trumptatoes there Chuckles" they'd say before dosing his drink with codeine and vivarin.
posted by petebest at 5:12 PM on September 18, 2016

Looking at other nations taken over by Fascists, I wouldn't think Hillary would be safe from malicious prosecution. And her Secret Service protection? Gone in 60 seconds. (Fortunately, since I don't consider Trump a true Fascist, just a true Kleptocrat, he may not bother)

No Triumph is complete without a Vercingetorix to parade before the crowd in defeat and then have strangled.
posted by dis_integration at 5:13 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

Well, third party presidential runs do provide the use of bringing some spotlight to groups that would be even more ignored during state and local elections.

I agree there's value in presenting a broader range of opinions during the presidential campaigns, but I think a better way to achieve this is by advocating for changes in campaign finance, campaign spending caps, or lowering the 15% polling threshold for candidates to participate in the debates.

Recently though, with so much media coverage already starting during the primaries, we already see a pretty broad range of ideas leading up to the general election.

And even with more representation of 3rd parties, I still think it will come down to a choice of two. Vote for "this" or "not this." Whatever policies the popular candidate represents, the next biggest party will take opposing stances to all of the controversial points and turn that into a platform.
posted by p3t3 at 5:13 PM on September 18, 2016

.....all the extra rules for women; be nice, be pretty, be soft but not too soft, flatter men, never make them feel threatened. They don't even know about those rules, but we women sure do.

And so when the polls drop or a woman doesn't overcome all the barriers, well, they sorrowfully conclude, clearly she just wasn't good enough.

If I had a nickel for all the times the many variants of the tone argument, or strangulation by the tightrope women must walk, came back up here on election threads alone - let alone the times I've seen it in the wild - I'd be richer than Trump.

It kills me, it really does.
posted by Dashy at 5:15 PM on September 18, 2016 [19 favorites]

I am grossly resentful of the fact that the half-million residents of Wyoming have 76 times the voting power in the Senate than the 38 million people in California.

It took me a while to sort out that some of the imbalance was deliberately planned, and probably a good thing - agricultural regions have different interests from urban ones, and if you run straight population-based representations, the urban areas will blithely litigate the agricultural areas out of existence, not realizing what's important and essential to them.

However, I suspect the balance point may be in the wrong place; I am certain this should be regularly re-considered. I would love to see CA and OR split into seven states (with Jefferson spanning parts of both), because (1) 2 senators for 38 million people is ridiculous and (2) I don't know what the people of far-north-CA and "Central CA" need from the Senate, but I'm pretty sure they're not getting it now.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 5:18 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

slow dancing to 'Islands in the Stream" (not proud)

BE PROUD!!! (redeemed by one-half Dolly Parton. That's enough)
posted by Golem XIV at 5:23 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

agricultural regions have different interests from urban ones, and if you run straight population-based representations, the urban areas will blithely litigate the agricultural areas out of existence, not realizing what's important and essential to them.

An argument long invalidated... California has the largest 'agricultural industry' in the nation, and such non-ag industries as supermarkets and restaurants have the interests of their suppliers in mind. The 'influence of agricultural areas' have failed to prevent Big Agribusiness from killing off most of the 'family farms'.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:35 PM on September 18, 2016 [13 favorites]

BE PROUD!!! (redeemed by one-half Dolly Parton. That's enough)

It was the Bob Segar original, man
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:36 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't know what the people of far-north-CA and "Central CA" need from the Senate, but I'm pretty sure they're not getting it now.

they're getting more money back than they pay in taxes so they should probably stfu and quit their bellyaching
posted by entropicamericana at 5:36 PM on September 18, 2016 [7 favorites]

Has anyone noted this before? Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo said the bomb exploded "literally" across the street from his apartment. The second bomb was found on 27th between 6th and 7th (127 West 27th). That's the block where TPM has its headquarters (between 27th and 28th on 6th). It could be a coincidence or could someone have been trying to send a message?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:39 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

You'd have your Socialists, Progressives, Liberals, Moderates, Eisenhowers, Tea Party/Constitutionalists and possibly, depending on the state of the nation, Libertarians.

Is there any country where this kind of political system currently exists?
posted by humanfont at 5:41 PM on September 18, 2016

Seems like a major stretch to me.
posted by Justinian at 5:41 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

> The House already votes using an electronic system.

The Texan legislator's electronic voting system is decidedly not secure, as re-aired on Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, though I don't imagine the federal government is more secure in this regard.
posted by fragmede at 5:44 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is there any country where this kind of political system currently exists?

Just about every parliamentary democracy in Western Europe?

They may not have those particular groups but I'd guess that's what the parties would mostly align down given a US multi-party system.
posted by Talez at 5:46 PM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

"Islands in the Stream" was written by the BeeGees, man.
[true]
posted by spitbull at 5:50 PM on September 18, 2016 [8 favorites]

the urban areas will blithely litigate the agricultural areas out of existence, not realizing what's important and essential to them.

1. The political structure of the US contributes to agricultural consolidation and monoculture: why do all the potatoes have to come from Idaho and eastern Oregon?
2. The political structure of the US works against metropolitan areas divided by state lines. It sets up arbitrage opportunities (e.g. work in WA, shop in OR) but tends to prevent coordinated transit or development policy.
3. The current trend in state-level conservative governance is for representatives of rural areas to milk cities of their tax revenue (esp. sales tax) while imposing "country values" on them w/r/t guns and bathrooms.
posted by holgate at 6:03 PM on September 18, 2016 [22 favorites]

Has anyone noted this before? Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo said the bomb exploded "literally" across the street from his apartment.

Well, he did and so did most of his readers by extension. It's worth noting, but NYC is pretty dense, so you have a surfeit of dots for your connecting pleasure.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:06 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

You forgot the aggressive corn price subsidies functioning as transfer payments from cities to rural areas which largely resent paying for social services in the city in return; as well as gas and oil subsidies which mask the true cost of rural/ex-urban car culture both in current dollars as well as climate externalities in perpetuity.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:08 PM on September 18, 2016 [22 favorites]

Ok well I'm off to Italy. If I get back and Trump is leading I will hold you all collectively responsible.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:36 PM on September 18, 2016 [26 favorites]

I will happily agree that the urban/rural split has gotten very problematic - a hundred years ago, agriculture was the most common industry in the US, and it comprised a much larger portion of our national activity than it does now. I would love to see the agri subsidies removed (pretty much all of them) and for some serious inquiry into the difference between rural communities vs rural-located large corporate activities, and what laws help which groups of people.

I don't think the solution is to eliminate the Senate (although I could see a coherent argument for having 2-5 senators per state instead of a flat 2); I'm not sure what to do about the population-per-Representative issue.

Maybe someone could post a MetaTalk about the hypothetical 6500+ person congress.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:39 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ha! I responded to an Italian who was complaining about Trump by mentioning Berlusconi ("we may have our own Berlusconi soon," I said). That was met with stony silence.
posted by argybarg at 6:43 PM on September 18, 2016 [19 favorites]

In other news one of the top mods and boosters of Reddit's /r/the_donald community not an American, but a racist Dane living in Copenhagen.
posted by humanfont at 6:47 PM on September 18, 2016 [13 favorites]

argybarg: Ha! I responded to an Italian who was complaining about Trump by mentioning Berlusconi ("we may have our own Berlusconi soon," I said). That was met with stony silence.

Well, to be fair, Berlusconi didn't have anywhere near the level of global responsibility and impact that a U.S. president shoulders, so he's somewhat more forgivable. It's been interesting to see my very lefty Italian friends practically defend Berlusconi for not being anywhere near as awful as Trump. Which, well, I dunno.
posted by Superplin at 6:48 PM on September 18, 2016

It was the Bob Segar original, man
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:36 PM on September 18 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]

Oh... Well...
I don't think that's forgivable.
posted by Golem XIV at 6:52 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

So I'm mostly ignoring the Emmys and I realized that it's pretty weird that there's a televised award show for ... television. And movies. "You spent a lot of time watching and talking about these shows, let's watch and discuss them some more!" There are some political comments, so it's something.

But instead, I suggest political journalists create some annual awards show for politicians, to highlight the good while shining a light on the bad. I mean, it'll never happen, unless it's 100% glad-handing, but I can dream.
posted by filthy light thief at 6:56 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ok well I'm off to Italy. If I get back and Trump is leading I will hold you all collectively responsible.

I'll one-up you, there. I'm going to be in London from a couple days before until a couple days after the election. I got to watch the Brexit clusterfuck from US shores and really don't want to watch Trump win from Old Blighty. Please don't screw up my vacation. I might just decide not to come back.*

*I'm kidding. I'm really coming back exactly on my booked flight, Mr./Ms. HM Customs Enforcement Officer who may be reading this. Promise.
posted by tclark at 6:57 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

I mean seriously combining North and South Dakota into one state named Dakota is such a no brainer. DAKOTA.

And Delaware needs to come back to Pennsylvania. We deserve a port on the ocean. Also beaches.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:00 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

You'd have your Socialists, Progressives, Liberals, Moderates, Eisenhowers, Tea Party/Constitutionalists and possibly, depending on the state of the nation, Libertarians.

You'd also finally get a U.S. equivalent to a Christian democratic party, perhaps the American Solidarity Party.
posted by Apocryphon at 7:04 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

You'd also get a Juggalo Party just sayin'
posted by spitbull at 7:08 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Clearly it would be the Insane Clown Party
posted by saturday_morning at 7:09 PM on September 18, 2016 [17 favorites]

Well, after today's RNC threats against him, Kasich seems to have gone even more all in as anti-RNC, Reince and Trump. His campaign manager released a statement for the campaign that rips Priebus in no uncertain terms.

"Thankfully, there are still leaders in this country who put principles before politics. Throughout his life, Governor John Kasich has always made decisions based on what was best for the country. The idea of a greater purpose beyond oneself may be alien to political party bosses like Reince Priebus, but it is at the center of everything Governor Kasich does. He will not be bullied by a Kenosha political operative that is unable to stand up for core principles or beliefs. In fact, Reince should be thanking the Governor for standing for an inclusive, conservative vision that can actually win an national election and improve our economy. The Governor is traveling the nation supporting down ballot Republicans and preventing a potential national wipeout from occurring on Reince's watch."
posted by chris24 at 7:18 PM on September 18, 2016 [78 favorites]

Snap, Governor Kasich.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:20 PM on September 18, 2016 [18 favorites]

The best thing about this is the Ohio GOP is controlled by and very loyal to Kasich. Makes it much harder for Trump to win a must-have state.
posted by chris24 at 7:26 PM on September 18, 2016 [10 favorites]

In fact, Reince should be thanking the Governor for standing for an inclusive, conservative vision that can actually win an national election and improve our economy

I applaud his vision, but I've seen his results.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:32 PM on September 18, 2016 [8 favorites]

Is there anything specific in "a Kenosha political operative" that Midwesterners can elucidate? Do Ohioans make Kenosha jokes?
posted by holgate at 7:35 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's the Wisconsin town Reince is from and got his political start in. It's basically trash talking him as small time.
posted by chris24 at 7:35 PM on September 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

In fact, Reince should be thanking the Governor for standing for an inclusive, conservative vision that can actually win an national election and improve our economy

I applaud his vision, but I've seen his results.

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. Nothing more, nothing less.
posted by saturday_morning at 7:38 PM on September 18, 2016 [14 favorites]

The enemy of my enemy can help us win. I'll take it. I don't need to have him over for Christmas.
posted by chris24 at 7:40 PM on September 18, 2016 [21 favorites]

Well exactly, therefore the "nothing less".
posted by saturday_morning at 7:43 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

The enemy of my enemy is an opportunity. And I trust Hillary's strategic game enough to feel confident she'll find one.
posted by erisfree at 7:44 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

When Kasich is the voice of moderation in the GOP...

John McCain, Mitt Romney, Jeb!, Ryan, Kasich, these people are all extreme radicals, but have become the "voices of reason" simply because the Party of Trump has push the Overton window off the map.

You know the scene at the end of Interstellar where Matthew McConaughey is looking back through the weird 4th/5th dimensional window literally back into his own past to change humanity's future through gravitational waves or someshit? That's where we are in 2016 in relation to what counts as a "moderate". Richard Nixon is out there somewhere looking through a black hole and silently screaming, "I CREATED THE EPA AND YOU'RE VOTING FOR THESE IDIOTS?"
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:46 PM on September 18, 2016 [15 favorites]

I'm glad Mitt didn't win but he's not an extreme radical. Calling basically everyone an extreme radical makes it harder when an actual one like Trump comes along.
posted by Justinian at 7:49 PM on September 18, 2016 [17 favorites]

Extreme Radical? Mitt? McCain?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:51 PM on September 18, 2016

I mean, if full embrace of the Ryan budget isn't extreme to you, I'm not sure what is.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:53 PM on September 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. Nothing more, nothing less.

There's nothing I love more than somebody who clearly learned the lessons of American history. saturday_morning, I salute you.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:55 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

I had no idea Reince was from Kenosha. This will never happen, but if I meet him I'll be sure to ask him about the Mars Cheese Castle. Also someone should mail him some jelly bellys to help him through this trying time.
posted by dis_integration at 7:58 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

You're defining "extreme" as "stuff I really disagree with" but that's not, I think, what it means.
posted by Justinian at 8:00 PM on September 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

Extreme right has become so extreme as to have become undefinable, I think that proves my point on its own.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:03 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

"i'm wanna reince priebus right outta my hair..."

[shrug] earworm. whatcha gonna do?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:05 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Let me speak in semi-defense of Kenosha, which I have never visited, but where they have just held (ended Saturday) their annual Kenosha Festival of Cartooning, where among the guests of honor were two excellent (and Trump-bashing) woman editorial cartoonists, Ann Telnaes and Jen Sorenson, and which included a gallery show on women cartoonists. There are some classy people in Kenosha. Maybe that's why RNC PRBS left...
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:16 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

No need to defend Kenosha, it's a lovely place. Beautiful lakefront. Streetcars. Quaint downtown. Mars Cheese Castle. Last stop on the Metra line to Chicago.

You never did the Kenosha Kid?
posted by dis_integration at 8:20 PM on September 18, 2016 [10 favorites]

By the way, since earlier in this thread (or was it last thread) a big point was made about not blaming Millenials for Clinton's current problems because they give her the widest margin of any age group... that didn't get any pushback but I'm not sure it's actually all that accurate at present.

In the last Quinnipiac poll, for example, Clinton gets 31% of the vote of 18-34 year olds. Johnson gets 29% and Trump gets 26%. That's only a 5 point edge over Trump and she's in danger of falling behind Johnson. If that's strong support I don't want to see what weak support looks like!
posted by Justinian at 8:21 PM on September 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

Here's the details. On page 4 you can see that Clinton leads among those 18-34 by 5 points over Trump and 2(!) points over Johnson. She leads among those 35-49 by 13 points over Trump and 25 points over Johnson.

So Clinton's best age demographic is not in fact Millenials, it's Gen-Xers.
posted by Justinian at 8:25 PM on September 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

Fucking hell. Pigs fly. Robert Kagan and I agree on something.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/this-is-how-fascism-comes-to-america/2016/05/17
posted by adam hominem at 8:27 PM on September 18, 2016 [8 favorites]

So Clinton's best age demographic is not in fact Millenials, it's Gen-Xers.

To be fair it's the Gen-Xers who A) have seen the full 30 years of exaggeration and outright lies about Hillary and are pretty inured to it, B) got the shaft first from the early Boomers who discovered that the golden ladder installed by previous generations was removable, and C) remember Gore v. Bush as an event in their adult lives rather than reading about it somewhere.
posted by tclark at 8:34 PM on September 18, 2016 [78 favorites]

Millenial support for Clinton does jump massively in the two-way race. I hope this election follows previous patterns where the third party candidates poll higher than their actual results but I am not sure it will.
posted by Justinian at 8:37 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Stein isn't on the ballot in North Carolina. Or Nevada.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:39 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

A New Yorker's response to the Chelsea Bombings
posted by Lord_Pall at 8:40 PM on September 18, 2016 [11 favorites]

Well if we Gen-Xer's save the world by getting Clinton elected, we fully expect to be ignored and overlooked for it like always.

/bitter
posted by emjaybee at 8:42 PM on September 18, 2016 [73 favorites]

So ... what'd I miss?

Hmm, the thread seems to have gone pretty quiet. Not much news over the weekend, sure, but that seems too quiet ... NEW THREAD? It's not even Sunday night, and the party has moved to a new thread?

Ok, so it's a new thread and already at over a thousand comments. I bet 500 of them are "re-litigating the primaries" and complaints about re-litigating the primaries, and ...here we go, Bernie, Stein, Gary Johnson, check, check, check.

So what was new in this thread so far? As a service to Monday skimmers, I offer the following:
(No links, sorry, what do you take me for? Skim the damn thread on your own.)

* A marriage proposal and an acceptance.
* Trump talking about a literal dumpster fire in Chelsea. Or maybe it's an IED in a trashcan, and it's not actually in Chelsea.
* A libertarian walks into a bar. (Ouch, should've seen that coming. The mods had to ask three times for people to knock it off.)
* Is America in decline? Was independence even a good idea in the first place?
* A primer on Duverger's law, and how first-past-the-post + Electoral college encourages a two party system. Also gerrymandering, and the virtues (or not) of a larger House.
* Chris Christie gets 4 Pinnochios in "possibly [the WP's] shortest fact check ever".

What did I miss?
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:43 PM on September 18, 2016 [13 favorites]

I'm glad Mitt didn't win but he's not an extreme radical. Calling basically everyone an extreme radical makes it harder when an actual one like Trump comes along.

I think that being afraid to call people out as extreme radicals helped pave the way for Trump.
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:45 PM on September 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

Well, Trump has been tweeting about the NY, NJ and MN "attacks."

And NYDN is reporting that the FBI has arrested 5 people possibly related to the Chelsea bombing.

"Federal agents busted five people in Brooklyn in a possible connection to the Chelsea bombing late Sunday, law enforcement sources said.

The suspects were busted with a weapons stash inside an SUV along the Belt Parkway eastbound lanes.

Meanwhile, authorities discovered three pipe bombs and two smaller devices at a train station in Elizabeth, shuttering train service along the Northeast Corridor from Newark Airport due to the police investigation."
posted by chris24 at 8:46 PM on September 18, 2016

A New Yorker's response to the Chelsea Bombings

This gets +1 from me for "28th Street in the middle of the day is more dead than Anthony Weiner’s career"

But -1 for having a background that truly caused me to go get a screen cleaning cloth because I thought those stupid specks were stuck on my monitor. Why do people do this?
posted by zachlipton at 8:50 PM on September 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

Haha.. i assumed my screen was smudgey.
posted by Lord_Pall at 8:51 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

So ... what'd I miss?

We've been inventing a new form of government. How was France?
posted by rokusan at 8:54 PM on September 18, 2016 [47 favorites]

I think we need to scrap this plan and ask King George to take us back, tbh.
posted by asteria at 8:58 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ok well I'm off to Italy. If I get back and Trump is leading I will hold you all collectively responsible.

Try the polenta while you still can
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:59 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's Queen Liz now, I don't even think there's a George in the current line of succession. And considering they've just Brexited, that may not be the best direction to go.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:00 PM on September 18, 2016

Okay, weirdly literal take on that. But there is a George as I am assuming Prince William's eldest is in line.
posted by asteria at 9:03 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

I don't even think there's a George in the current line of succession.

Prince Charles is "Charles Philip Arthur George" and the people in the know about such things believe he's likely to pick George rather than Charles because Charles isn't a regnal name with particularly great historical mojo.
posted by tclark at 9:11 PM on September 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well if we Gen-Xer's save the world by getting Clinton elected, we fully expect to be ignored and overlooked for it like always.

I'm 32 and never felt remotely accurate to describe myself as a "Millenial", mostly because I remember when a 56k modem was the new hotness. But also not really "Gen-X", because I don't remember when my family bought the first Apple IIe, or when the Challenger happened, or when Prince was scandalous.

But I do remember what a bunch of bullshit 90s political media was, and hopefully there's another whole pseudo-generation-Y that does too.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:15 PM on September 18, 2016 [13 favorites]

goddammit no America you had your chance. Australia is the favourite child now you don't get to just show up on Britain's doorstep like nothing ever happened
posted by um at 9:17 PM on September 18, 2016 [14 favorites]

So ... what'd I miss?
I guess you basically missed the late 80s.

Then again, who didn't?
posted by Superplin at 9:20 PM on September 18, 2016 [19 favorites]

Prince Charles is "Charles Philip Arthur George" and the people in the know about such things believe he's likely to pick George

goddammit King Arthur is right there Chuck
posted by beerperson at 9:28 PM on September 18, 2016 [21 favorites]

Okay so apparently another set of pipe bombs were found in newark.

Someone pulled them out of the trash because it looked like something valuable, walked off a bit and realized it might be a bomb...

I dont know how to describe the dark dark humor, or bleak sadness where a homeless person searching through a trashcan is something positive...

Last night i came across a report that the someone stole the bag with the second pressure cooker, but ditched it when they saw what it was... which is why it didnt go off.
posted by Lord_Pall at 9:28 PM on September 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm 32 and never felt remotely accurate to describe myself as a "Millenial"

We inbetweeners will be forever out-of-joint. What's infuriating is that we were snake-people first! But then they just kept using that word to describe a whole 'nother generation. Maybe if you were born between 1979 and 1989, rather than millennial, we should be the Analog to Digital Generation.
posted by dis_integration at 9:30 PM on September 18, 2016 [17 favorites]

never felt remotely accurate to describe myself as a "Snake Person", mostly because I remember when a 56k modem was the new hotness

Guard: "Halt right there! Now, Prove you're a Gen X-er. Make the sound of the new hotness in modems."
T.D.S.: "Uhm.. okay.. *busy signal*"
Guard: "Nice try. Now get on with it."
T.D.S.: "Okay.. brrring, brrrring.. click... fweeeeee"
Guard: ...
T.D.S.: "eee-^eeeeeeee ttsshhhhhhhhhh"
Guard: ...
T.D.S.: "blingong bzlogn"
Guard: *BLAM*
posted by fleacircus at 9:31 PM on September 18, 2016 [42 favorites]

I was born in 1955 and was considered "late" for being a Baby Boomer because my father didn't run right home from WWII and get my mother pregnant (they hadn't MET yet), and I wasn't old enough to run off to Woodstock in 1969. And too early for "Generation X"; that didn't begin until well into the '60s. One thing for sure, when Tom Brokaw popularized the term "Greatest Generation" for my parents, I wanted to break his jaw... Tom Broke-jaw, yeah.

Anyway, I still often feel the need to apologize for 'my generation', although it was mostly the spoiled brats older than me.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:39 PM on September 18, 2016 [8 favorites]

Metafilter: people who fit poorly into arbitrary generational constructs
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:47 PM on September 18, 2016 [32 favorites]

goddammit King Arthur is right there Chuck

It would be cool to have a King Arthur in England once the Vatican elects a Pope Peter II. 21st century apocalypse let's bring back all the myths
posted by Apocryphon at 10:14 PM on September 18, 2016 [8 favorites]

"Halt right there! Now, Prove you're a Gen X-er. Make the sound of the new hotness in modems."

this used to be my party trick

i went to some sad parties, i tell you what
posted by palomar at 10:28 PM on September 18, 2016 [31 favorites]

A New Yorker's response to the Chelsea Bombings

That was very well written, but I'm side-eyeing the default jihad assumption. As far as I knew the FBI and NYC Police Dept. hadn't announced anything about Islamist terrorism in connection with Chelsea and no group has yet claimed responsibility. I mean, Timothy McVeigh was a thing, yeah?

This incident has just highlighted for me how terrible Trump would be as a president. He steps off the plane knowing nothing, announces a bombing, then says we have to get tough. Compare that to Clinton who looked concerned but was measured and waiting for information. Johnson, who wants to get rid of the Dept. of Homeland Security and the NSA via executive order, was just glad everyone was ok.
posted by xyzzy at 10:34 PM on September 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

Paramilitary Organization Endorses Fascist, Nation Worries

Fascism and Democracy - "What Gramsci can tell us about the relationship between fascism and liberalism — and the rise of Donald Trump."

What Will Bernie's Legacy Be? Can he prevent the Left's suicide wing as friends don't let friends vote for Jill Stein - a lucky break for Hillary Clinton.
What sort of President will Hillary Clinton be, even with all those neocon fans, she's developed a powerful, unreliable coalition, to implement the most ambitions economic plans since WWII.

If you care about the Supreme Court, you need Trump to go down in a landslide, even as the GOP will never accept President Clinton. GOP, the Party conquered by Trump. Well, not so much 'conquered' as 'natural, predictable development.'" (how soon you forget that bloody, bloody Andrew Jackson). Ignore the laughable attempts to blame liberals or the misguided economic anxiety argument. Are we in the midst of a realignment or just a recalibration? Since Trump is conservatism (and embolding its more virulent forms), let's leave conservativism behind.

Making sense of a divided America. This election isn't about right vs. left. It's about "we" vs. "I."

How Breitbart Conquered the Media - "Political reporters were taken aback by Hillary Clinton’s charge that half of Trump’s supporters are prejudiced. Few bothered to investigate the claim itself." An effect of outrage fatigue and 'political incorrectness' as strategy

The Holocaust Historian Who Loves Donald Trump, Trump: chaos monkey, [white] working-class hero or psychopath. The subtle, dangerous way Donald Trump has changed American political discourse. Is Trump an agent of Putin, or an all-American disaster? Don't ignore the lessons of the far-right and The Great Paradox. See people become disenchanted with democracy[PDF]

How Rousseau Predicted Trump. fuckin' Rousseau.

more at
OMNIVORE
OMNIVORE
OMNIVORE
OMNIVORE
OMNIVORE
OMNIVORE
OMNIVORE
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:42 PM on September 18, 2016 [61 favorites]

prevent the Left's suicide wing

They prefer People's Front of Judea.
posted by Justinian at 11:46 PM on September 18, 2016 [10 favorites]

Heh. Yeah, Omnivore has been bringing the anti-Trump links daily for months now. Good stuff.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:57 PM on September 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, if America really NEEDS a third party, THIS is the party America needs.
sorry, tacos, but pizza's got you beat
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:02 AM on September 19, 2016

The Meteor is a train though
posted by clorox at 12:20 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Holocaust Historian Who Loves Donald Trump

Excellent article. I don't know if it makes sense to describe Metaxas as a Holocaust historian, though: he's a lay theologist who wrote a book about Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:30 AM on September 19, 2016

The Gramsci article is funny because it starts off interesting, pointing out lots of new connections based on research with an unexpected level of clarity and concision, then by the end of the interview the tone is simultaneously grim due to the sociologist's predictions, and fraught because he doesn't mince words about his political views.
posted by polymodus at 12:52 AM on September 19, 2016

Metafilter: the tone is simultaneously grim and fraught.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:03 AM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

From the "suicide wing" link above:

By voting for Ralph Nader in 2000, you got precisely the opposite of everything you wanted: a Republican presidency; continued conservative control of the Supreme Court, culminating in Citizens United and the gutting of the Voting Rights Act, to name just two of the recent court decisions liberals despise the most; and the war in Iraq, with all its devastating consequences in blood and treasure. There’s a word of fairly recent coinage that perfectly describes your choice 16 years ago: Derp. While you were patting yourselves on the back for making a “statement,” progressivism lost a generation.

I think it's interesting to consider this. Did leftists voting for a third party in presidential election lead to many of the problems millennials have faced as they come of age? I mean, it's pretty impossible to predict what would have happened in eight years of a Gore presidency. But still, it's an interesting question.
posted by threeturtles at 1:27 AM on September 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

it's pretty impossible to predict what would have happened in eight years of a Gore presidency

True enough, but it isn't impossible to predict what wouldn't have happened. Roberts and Alito wouldn't haven't been nominated. There wouldn't have been tax cuts for the wealthy which bankrupted the country. We wouldn't have invaded Iraq when bin Laden was in Afghanistan. And So Much More!

What would have happened? I can't say. But that stuff wouldn't have.
posted by Justinian at 1:35 AM on September 19, 2016 [56 favorites]

Excellent article. I don't know if it makes sense to describe Metaxas as a Holocaust historian, though: he's a lay theologist who wrote a book about Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

A very bad book about Bonhoeffer which twists him into a modern-style evangelical and was written largely to take one of the most courageous Christian voices of the 20th century and distort it until it becomes a dull cheer for Metataxas' political priorities, something that was reasonably clear when it hit the shelves, and is only more obvious now that he is taking his status as an "expert" on the extremely uncompromising Bonhoeffer and using it to urge evangelicals to engage in the greatest act of political compromise imaginable: voting for a crass, greedy, lying, violent, faithless degenerate because he'll keep taxes low on the rich and deport the destitute.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 1:44 AM on September 19, 2016 [20 favorites]

Eight years of a Gore presidency? I think you could only assume four and then it's all speculation. We could also wonder if a 2nd Bush Sr. term might have been preferable to Clinton's triangulation that may have moved both parties rightward too, but that too is only speculative and has no real provable answers.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:45 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

While you were patting yourselves on the back for making a “statement,” progressivism lost a generation.

I didn't vote for Nader, but the travesty of the 2000 election was where all of my starry-eyed idealism went to die. In 2000 I was in my 20s. I was environmentally-conscious, pacifistic and non-interventionist, and I hated that carpetbagger Hillary Clinton. Then came 9/11, Citizen's United, and the invasion of Iraq. My pacifism and non-interventionist leanings went out the door when I learned that Bill Clinton's repeated withdrawals from military conflict, primarily due to poor optics, inspired Bin Laden to issue his fatwa against the US and plan 9/11 with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. My hatred for HRC disappeared when she worked her ass off to get help for the responders working the pile at Ground Zero. My tolerance for protest votes went out the window after Cheney's victory with the Halliburton Exception, which exempts frackers from vital portions of most federal environmental laws. And that's on top of the invasion of Iraq, the Patriot Act, NSA surveillance of Americans, terrible Supreme Court nominations, and about 1,000 other things that we can thank Shrub and his henchmen for.
posted by xyzzy at 1:57 AM on September 19, 2016 [59 favorites]

once again, people have forgotten that we were already at war with iraq during the clinton administration and that the escalation of this war had significant democrat support, including from a certain senator from new york

but let's just rewrite history, shall we?
posted by pyramid termite at 2:29 AM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

A very bad book about Bonhoeffer which twists him into a modern-style evangelical and was written largely to take one of the most courageous Christian voices of the 20th century and distort it until it becomes a dull cheer for Metataxas' political priorities

Yes, I still remember how disappointed I was when I read it -- a flat cardboard-cut version of history as good v evil conflict, where both good and evil are not really defined or analysed at all. Nazis are evil, Christianity is good, Bonhoeffer was Christian-and-not-Nazi, what an example to us all. He makes some attempt to explain the origins of Nazi thought but it's pretty cartoonish and there's an undercurrent of how foreign it all is to a decent upright American Protestant. So I'm unsurprised that he can't see the parallels between Hitler and Trump, and can't see that plenty of Nazis would also have been someone's crazy-inappropriate can't-take-everything-he-says-seriously uncle in 1932.
posted by Aravis76 at 2:30 AM on September 19, 2016

people have forgotten that we were already at war with iraq during the clinton administration

If by "war with Iraq" you mean the bombing of the Iraqi intelligence services after the attempted assassination of Bush, Sr. and the maintenance of the no-fly zone as part of the UN resolutions after Desert Storm, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The Clinton administration didn't love Saddam Hussein, but there was never an AUMF designed to topple the regime during his administration. But yes, I was highly annoyed at the transparent fictions designed to create the coalition for Junior's invasion and I was also annoyed that so many Democrats, including HRC, went along with it.
posted by xyzzy at 2:42 AM on September 19, 2016 [17 favorites]

There's a subtle or blatant hypocrisy in either attributing or blaming leftists for not meeting a political alliance. I'd like to think that liberalism entails a bit of self-reflective capacity and knowing how to prioritize/inculcate that attitude. If majority liberals, i.e., the dominant privileged political group on the left could not win over progressives further on the Overton spectrum, maybe the way to do it, as said majority, is to tailor and improve the outreach process.

Understandably, that's a difficult onus because there's gonna be conflict in value systems and very different self-interests. But how about Democrats, especially those Washington-based "analysts", spend less time speculating about various groups of leftists from within their hegemonic liberal bubble and generating prejudiced, propaganda pieces and grenade terms like "suicide wing"; stop othering and get out there actually meet and engage with them. Start with the healthy, liberal recognition that their context and experiences are not the same as yours. My god, there could be learning from one another!

Don't just identify as a liberal. You gotta act it, too.
posted by polymodus at 3:24 AM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

"but there was never an AUMF designed to topple the regime during his administration."

Don't need a AUMF to authorize regime change. Bob Baer tried in 95' and almost got arrested for sandy bergers fickleness. But there was that feckless thing called the Iraq Liberation Act, which congress cited in the 02' AUMF. Etc., etc.

When Iraq was Clintons war.
posted by clavdivs at 3:33 AM on September 19, 2016

once again, people have forgotten that we were already at war with iraq during the clinton administration

Wha... WHAT?

I remember the build up to the Iraq War. I remember Colin Powell in the UN. I remember Cheney on morning talk shows. I REMEMBER Bush kicking out the weapons inspectors while saying he was doing this to keep Hussein from getting weapons of mass destruction. I remember the implications that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 and how carefully weasel worded they were, because there was actually no connection. I remember the implications that you were unpatriotic if you didn't back the president, that Saddam Hussein was Hilter and anyone who opposed the war was Neville Chamberlin. I also remember showing up at protest marches in Seattle and Chicago, and watching with horror and feeling sick to my stomach whehn the bombs started dropping in March, 2003. I remember the posturing in Congress leading up to the AUMF and the fawning of "embedded" journalists and the night vision cameras.

We were already at war during the Clinton administration, though, so I guess none of that ever happened. I guess I imagined all that? Nothing changed under Bush? No more Americans and Iraqis died than one of under a Gore Administration? No additiinal veterans were maimed or permanently disabled?

Ugh. What a horrible thing to say! "I hate being blamed for what happened when I refused to vote strategically, so I'll just pretend it didn't happen. Both parties really are the same." Except they are not. The scale and meaning our actions in Iraq underwent a shift in 2003 that I still shudder to recall. Under Clinton there were no fly zones and weapons inspections and saber rattling. Under Bush we sent an inavding army, toppled the government, and occupied the country. Qualitatively different. Different in the eyes if everyone who lived through it, and everyine who died as a result of it. Different in the eyes of history. Different.

and that the escalation of this war had significant democrat support, including from a certain senator from new york

but let's just rewrite history, shall we?

I can't believe how shamelessly you are doing exactly that.

That senator prefaced her vote with “Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first … I take the president at his word that he will try hard to pass a United Nations resolution and seek to avoid war, if possible."

She was voting to give the president the authority to threaten war if Hussein did not readmit weapons inspectors. She did not expect Bush to then kick them out, and begin bombing.

Had Clinton or Gore been in office, THAT'S what would have happened -- weapons inspections.

To pretend the Iraq War would have happened just the same without Bush is some pants-on-fire level of false history.
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:49 AM on September 19, 2016 [122 favorites]

"part of the UN resolutions after Desert Storm, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The Clinton administration"

and others used resolution 688 to justify continuing an Iraqi no-fly zone which the UN Seceratry General called Illegal.
Momento Mori indeed.
posted by clavdivs at 3:49 AM on September 19, 2016

Jesus, that Jacobin article! God, I can't believe this is a Thing. Clinton came into office on the heels of the first Bush's war with Iraq. Also, Saddam Hussein really was a master troll who really did gas people and try to develop nukes. So no, we did not exactly have a normal relationship with Iraq during the Clinton years.

But what Bush did was NOT more of the same. No more weapons inspections; let's occupy Hussein's palaces! It was DIFFERENT!
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:01 AM on September 19, 2016 [17 favorites]

I remember the build up to the Iraq War.

I remember too. The build up, the "quiet war", Albright's 500,000 dead children

Suggest you read that jacobin artlcile
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:20 AM on September 19, 2016

Yes, that's the problem though when talking about Iraq. At the time, Clinton was heavily criticized from the left for the sanctions he was imposing which according to numerous sources in the moment were connected to the deaths of 200,000 to 500,000 children. Clinton claimed that was on Saddam for shuttling money and resources throughout the country inappropriately, and perhaps it was, but that still might be seen as constituting something like an act of war, and several high ranking administrators resigned over it.

Combine that with the fact of Hussein using chemical weapons against the Kurds and his aggressive tendencies towards his neighbors and stated desire to build nuclear weapons and the whole situation was an incredibly difficult one.

Because of that, I'm not entirely convinced Gore's solution, though it would have been different than Bush's, would have necessarily been better just because he wasn't Bush. I'm willing to think it very well might have been, but I'll only allow that speculation to go so far.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:25 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Mod note: Gentle nudge to steer back to the actual 2016 Election rather than another few hundred comments about what if Gore had won, and general arguing about Iraq.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:29 AM on September 19, 2016 [20 favorites]

Taz, can I buy you a drink when all of this is over? The election threads surely must be trying your soul, and there's still months to go...

*sobs*
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 4:46 AM on September 19, 2016 [14 favorites]

Derek Willis ‏@derekwillis
In past month, 1/3rd of Trump mobile display ads have been on http://breitbart.com , says @Pathmatics:

So at this point they're basically openly pillaging campaign accounts.
posted by Talez at 4:46 AM on September 19, 2016 [22 favorites]

The NY/NJ bombing investigation has yielded a "person of interest" said to be an "American of Afghan descent" per AP and NYPD.

And the Bridgegate federal trial starts today. Popcorn futures through the roof.

We are gonna need a bigger thread.
posted by spitbull at 4:47 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump's again gloating with 'I told you so' on a terror attack this morning.

Trump takes credit, once again, for "calling it" -- on the bombs in New York:
"I should be a newscaster! ... I called it before the news."
posted by chris24 at 4:53 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

God he's a fucking insufferable schmuck.
posted by spitbull at 4:56 AM on September 19, 2016 [24 favorites]

I really liked that the pinned tweet on HRC's Twitter is "What Trump just did is a disgrace."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:04 AM on September 19, 2016 [21 favorites]

In other news, Jeb! had a guest appearance during the Emmy awards
posted by ymgve at 5:09 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

"I called it before the news."

Because the one thing I want in a president is a rush to judgment to rival the shitty media.
posted by chris24 at 5:10 AM on September 19, 2016 [36 favorites]

Here's what millennials have taught me, by Hillary Clinton
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:12 AM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

In other news, Jeb! had a guest appearance during the Emmy awards

The race for 2020 has already started
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:21 AM on September 19, 2016

In other news, Jeb! had a guest appearance during the Emmy awards

Please clap?
posted by Francis at 5:22 AM on September 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

I feel like this thread as opposed to x% of America is like when I speak to fellow people with spinal cord injuries and we're all, A thing happened, yeah, it's really fucked up. Yep, violation of federal joke. And then various obscene jokes follow, because there's only so much hating one can do before one's soul gets all shriveled and shit.

So what I'm saying is that misery loves company, and y'all are good company. I personally don't know why Clinton isn't leading about 15%, because I'm just some joe. And I think that we're all in the same boat with that sense of disbelief, more or less.

But apparently, 50% of the U.S. is like what are you talking about calm down it was better in the fifties, right. And I'm like whoa. I mean, that's my best take on it. Whoa, that's fucked up.

My friend got into this rant about armchair diagnoses of Trump, Libertarians, and others, and I understand why it's tempting to understand history while it's happening, but my response is just: Whoa. That's fucked up.

I was across the river from the towers at 9/11 and that was of course an instantaneous do do do WHOA THAT'S FUCKED UP and it might have been the moment that I came into the office and the receptionist was talking about a firefighter she knew who had found a bunch of human bones that my mind went NOPE. I mean there was a bunch of other horrifying details, not that I was personally affected except that at that time my roots in New York were pretty deep, so you kept running into it, you know.

But I pretty clearly remembered that NOPE moment. NPR, off. Reading the NYT, no more. I was engaged, of course, but I had to limit my engagement to bonding with friends and doing my job and try not to hate the rest of the country for embarking on such a disastrous foreign policy agenda with the deaths of my goddamned neighbors as a rallying cry.

For this election, I've gradually narrowed my focus. It started by avoiding NPR (so I wouldn't hear Trump's voice and the false equivalency thing) and now I'm just reading the NYT for movie reviews and to see when some articles about Hamilton in Chicago come out.

I think that's the thing that I was maybe projecting or maybe accurately depicting in other threads: People are not talking casually about it in Philly. It's become a dangerous thing, because even if somebody votes HRC, they may be all lesser of two evils, and given the shit I've seen in my student essays, which has to be reflecting something in the air, people are ANGRY. On both sides.

I may need to bow out of these threads if my NOPE factor increases further, just so I can maintain some peace of mind.

But thank you for all of your comments.
posted by angrycat at 5:23 AM on September 19, 2016 [15 favorites]

NYT: Letter From Former Officials Urges Trump to Detail Foreign Dealings

"More than 50 former government officials and national security and military figures have signed an open letter to Donald J. Trump, urging him to disclose details of his overseas business investments before Election Day...

...The signers — who also include prominent Republicans such as Michael Chertoff, who led the Department of Homeland Security under President George W. Bush, and Paul D. Wolfowitz, Mr. Bush’s deputy secretary of defense — add that Mr. Trump should “pledge that he will divest himself of his overseas business interests should he win the presidency.”
posted by chris24 at 5:29 AM on September 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

Politico: Trump has diplomats abandoning vows of silence:

"Analysts struggle to recall another U.S. election where so many foreign leaders have so directly weighed in on the merits of a particular candidate. Even in 2004, when much of the world detested George W. Bush due to the debacle in Iraq, foreign leaders and their envoys generally held back during the campaign. But in 2016, the Mexican president has compared Trump’s rhetoric to that of Adolf Hitler; the German foreign minister has warned that the Republican’s fear-driven brand of politics would be “dangerous” for the whole world; and the French president has said the real estate mogul’s “excesses” provoke a “retching feeling.”

And related...

WaPo: Foreign-policy experts grow more hostile to Trump as N. Korea tests missiles

"Eliot Cohen, an active anti-Trump voice, said that he has never seen foreign-policy professionals so stridently hostile to a candidate. “He is not only an ignoramus, but he’s a dangerous ignoramus who doesn’t know the first thing about foreign policy and doesn’t care and has some very dangerous instincts,” Cohen, who served in the George W. Bush administration, told The Washington Post in a recent interview. “Part of what is so dangerous about him is not just his ignorance and contempt for our alliances, but his failure to understand how important these have been to our security since 1945. And he has already done a lot of damage. Our allies are deeply shaken by this election.”
posted by chris24 at 5:34 AM on September 19, 2016 [27 favorites]

Why would anything about Trump's campaign be given the benefit of the doubt? He'll lie, say he didn't, and do the thing he thinks will make him rich.

Quit treating him like an actual presidential candidate, MSM. He's an incompetent salesman who lacks the conviction to actually be a mobster.

NYT, that's particularly for you. You know that, don't you?
posted by petebest at 5:43 AM on September 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trump was on Fox & Friends getting the machismo out there:

Trump: "we’re going to have to do something extremely tough"

Doocy: Like what?

Trump: "knock the hell out of them"

The full quote in context is even scarier. It's pretty much Iraq War Reaction 2.0.

If the country votes Trump we're not going to be limited interventionist. We're going to have imperialist boots on the ground in the middle east. Guaranteed.
posted by Talez at 5:43 AM on September 19, 2016 [24 favorites]

Trump just retweeted someone named TrumpThatBitch2016.
posted by chris24 at 5:46 AM on September 19, 2016

And of course, the human cheeto is right back to Syrian refugees. Poorly vetted. Despite Ahmad Khan Rahami being a US citizen of Afghani descent.

At least Trump removed the "Welfare 4 bombs!" catch phrase when he retweeted the asshole.
posted by Talez at 5:48 AM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

Election 2016: You can eat all the bigotry you want and because it's fact-free it won't increase your IQ!
posted by Talez at 5:50 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm still pretty confident that Hillary will win this but the fact that over 40% of the American voters are going to vote for this vulgar talking yam makes me horribly sad for our country.
posted by octothorpe at 5:54 AM on September 19, 2016 [22 favorites]

"Trump on Fox: "...[Terrorist strikes] maybe...you know, will happen perhaps more and more all over the country."

Cue Reichstag fire.
posted by chris24 at 5:54 AM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

Let the purges begin!

Trump says former GOP candidates who don't endorse him should be banned from running in 4 years:
posted by chris24 at 6:06 AM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

GOTV report from South Carolina: I phone banked for 3 hours on Saturday for the SC Democratic Party. (I had signed up to phone bank for Hillary on Saturday afternoon, but I got a call Friday night from the local Democratic Party to ask me to make calls -- since they call for local races as well as the presidential ticket, I figured that would probably make more sense, at least for now.) And it's good that I did because I was the ONLY person making calls. My organizer has ELEVEN counties that she's working for and did some door-knocking while I called, checking in by text from time to time. She lives 3 hours away.

The list I was given to call was about 90-95% Millennials, which I thought was really interesting in the wake of all the posts about how the Dems aren't reaching out to Millennials. Turns out my list was of "infrequent" voters, which makes sense... the frequent voters are going to vote anyway, so they're starting with those less likely to vote. So I got a lot of disconnected, wrong number, moved away, etc. because Millennials do move around a lot and probably the reason they haven't voted here in SC lately is because they don't live here anymore.

I mostly left voicemails, and I got a few Republicans (2 of those were wives who were like "my husband is a Republican and will not consider voting for a DEMOCRAT" and I swear in the background of one call I heard the husband in question arguing that they wanted to talk to me before the wife hung up on me which was interesting, I marked him "not home" so we'll call again).

BUT my favorite call was one guy who was like "my wife's not home, but I'm a Democrat too and can I volunteer for you?" which I was like OMG YES we have so many things you can do!! Here is all the info! and it was an awesome conversation and totally made my day.

I'm also training as a poll watcher tonight and will probably do some door knocking next weekend, and let me tell you it feels so good to DO SOMETHING. And even for a shy person like me, at least the phone calling is totally not hard! You have a script and mostly people are at least civil! Do it if you can!
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:09 AM on September 19, 2016 [71 favorites]

I wonder if Kasich and Cruz will have to fight to the death in a nationally televised cage match or if they'll just be secretly executed by a Trump death squad. Probably the TV version. Imagine the ratings.
posted by dis_integration at 6:09 AM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump on Fox: "I'm totally in favor of freedom of the press ... but how do you allow magazines to be sold" that "tell you how to make bombs"

So this morning in just one interview on Fox, Trump has called for a purge of his party, restrictions on the 1st Amendment, stoked fears of violence and/or encouraged violence, called for profiling of refugees and Middle Easter immigrants, and suggested increased military action in the Middle East.
posted by chris24 at 6:12 AM on September 19, 2016 [34 favorites]

And he doesn't believe any of it. Unless he does. He'll let you know.
posted by petebest at 6:18 AM on September 19, 2016 [10 favorites]

Speaking of Iraq, Trump admits he was for the war before he was against it, but says that's "the same thing" as being against the war the whole time.

Can you imagine Trump's response to the famous question posed about Nixon: What did he know and when did he know it? "I knew all about it beforehand, which is to say I didn't know anything and I just learned about it now. It's the same thing. Yes I knew about it, no, I didn't. See? Same thing"

All that is solid melts into air.
posted by dis_integration at 6:25 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Clinton Maintains Lead Over Trump Despite Health Scare

Clinton maintains her 2% lead with likely voters over Trump in a 4 way race in a poll taken after the health scare.

In a head to head match up, her lead went up 3% points to 4% with likely voters.
posted by chris24 at 6:25 AM on September 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

As an example, WSJ: 5 years of DJT birther statements

Which is essentially when (2011) Obama releases his birth certificate.

Just before: He doesn't have it! He's Kenyan!
After: Who knows? It's a mystery. You tell me.

Also "pledging" $5M if he releases his birth certificate (I hope you're sitting down, this may shock you); didn't do it.
posted by petebest at 6:32 AM on September 19, 2016 [9 favorites]

Field report: our 5e D&D group got together this weekend, and since we're late Gen-X'ers/early millenials with money to spend, there were amaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazing sous-vide ribs, apple-cabbage slaw, and polenta (DM), craft beers (the bard), peach cobbler (us, the ranger and the paladin and a blink dog), and homemade sourdough bread from starter purchased at the King Arthur factory store (barbarian).

Since we're late Gen-X'ers/early millenials, we also had a brief and deeply unfortunate exchange, where the guy who plays the bard pulled out some Hillary Health Truth nonsense, saying that he thought that it was obvious from watching the 9/11 memorial video that she was HIDING SOME MUCH MORE SERIOUS because SHE'D CLEARLY HAD A SEIZURE ON HER WAY INTO THE CAR. This guy has previously said that his #1 issue is getting big money out of politics, which is why he is ???? voting ???? for Gary fucking Johnson ???????

Then our barbarian player said that she hoped Clinton got elected, and then died a year into the term so that she wouldn't have to hear her die-hard BUILD THAT WALL!!!!!!!!!!!! white working-class husband talk about Clinton for the full term, but she could also feel confident we wouldn't die in a nuclear war four days after inauguration.

I attempted not to shoot fire out of my face, or make snide comments about jet fuel and steel beams, and limited myself to one COME ON, HILLARY TRUTHER.

And then we all awkwardly went back to massively fucking up our rolls against a winged shadow lord demon with red-glowing eyes.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:37 AM on September 19, 2016 [20 favorites]

I don't think this has been posted here before but, this is Hillary's appeal to Millennials and I think it's pretty good. I'm biased, of course, and I'm not exactly that age group (32) but I think it addresses what I perceive to be their concerns.
posted by Tevin at 6:39 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

I've just turned twenty-nine (so definitely a Snake Person) and she's really missing a note on mass surveillance and foreign military adventurism.
posted by stolyarova at 6:41 AM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

but how do you allow magazines to be sold" that "tell you how to make bombs"

Someone ought to tell him about all the gun enthusiasts who buy large quantities of tannerite and film themselves done blowin' it up to announce whether it's a boy or a girl. Or just pack it in a lawnmower and blow their own legs off.
posted by holgate at 6:50 AM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

Well, the phone bank I went to last night had a very good turn out. All the organizers are millennials and most of the volunteers were Gen Xers and Boomers, probably as it should be. More women than men among the volunteers but not totally one-sided gender-wise.

The lists we were working on were purported Hillary supporters or at least likely supporters we were calling to try to get involved in volunteering so the worst result I had all night was an undecided (wtf 20-something dude?)who immediately hung up on me. A few strong HRC supporters not interested in volunteering, a couple who I got far enough with to describe the opportunities. I have out the /events URL off-script a couple times because honestly I'm not going to commit to something on the spur of the moment over the phone either. I'm busy, I need to check my calendar then check with my spouse. But I figure it's probably a win just to remind folks that the campaign is active in town and a new office just opened and mention where it's located and there's always people there.

And of course 90% no answer or wrong number or disconnected. And a couple folks who don't live in PA any more. I did get one guy who's not a citizen so he can't vote but is defiantly going to volunteer and had already done the research on how to get involved. So that was awesome.

Just listening in to other callers there were some Trumpets who got called somehow. I'm glad that didn't happen to me because I'm not sure I would have been able to contain my wtf.

Then I went to Target and bought the organizers a bunch of coffee making supplies and junk food.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:51 AM on September 19, 2016 [29 favorites]

Took a trip to Northern Wisconsin. It seems like there are slightly less Republican signs this year, but every sad-sack rundown business has a Trump sign.
posted by drezdn at 6:52 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

(Imagine, for instance, the mefi outcry if someone were to post in this thread that they're not voting for Clinton because of her stance on domestic surveillance! Hoo boy!)

I think that would rightly be called out as nonsense masking something else, as it's not like Trump is going to roll back the surveillance state.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:00 AM on September 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

I've just turned twenty-nine (so definitely a Snake Person) and she's really missing a note on mass surveillance and foreign military adventurism.

That's because she's all for both of them. There are a lot of things to like about Hillary, but her stance on those issues is not one of them. Let's not kid ourselves, here—whoever gets elected, we can be sure that we're going to see more hawkish warmongering, more illegal drone-based assassinations, more surveillance, and an expansion of the security state over the next four years.

We unfortunately find ourselves in a place where we have to accept that unpleasant truth, and base our voting on other issues. This one just isn't on the table this election.

You can point to that as an example of how the American political process is broken, because the citizenry isn't even being given the option to cast a meaningful vote on that set of issues, and I'd agree with you—the American political process is incredibly broken in many ways. Voting remains important though, and the two candidates on offer this cycle represent radically different paths for America. So it's a broken system, but it's still important to participate even if we despair that it will ever get truly fixed.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:03 AM on September 19, 2016 [17 favorites]

I think we're now just fully in the mass-surveillance dystopia

Serious question: what happened with Obama on this issue?

I didn't follow the 2008 campaign very closely (prime dirtbag year for me, plus I would have voted for rotting jack o lantern on the Dem ticket), but my impression was that in the primaries and in the campaign, Obama was at least concerned about the surveillance state?

And then he expanded the shit out of it.

What happened?
posted by schadenfrau at 7:07 AM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

What happened?

Things look a lot different when you're looking at the sausage being made.
posted by Talez at 7:10 AM on September 19, 2016 [20 favorites]

schadenfrau, the Boston Globe did an interesting piece on that a few years ago:

Vote all you want. The secret government won’t change.
The people we elect aren’t the ones calling the shots, says Tufts University’s Michael Glennon

Essentially, the security state is a giant self-driving bureaucracy. :(
posted by stolyarova at 7:11 AM on September 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

I've just turned twenty-nine (so definitely a Snake Person) and she's really missing a note on mass surveillance and foreign military adventurism.

Before I left ontd-political, which is heavily millenial dominated, they're wavy much on mass surveillance. Mostly the talking points from the disingenuous Repost Anti-Clinton Propagsnda crowd were"She will bomb Syria", "She took Wall Street money", and Clinton Foundation, along with the occasional jaunt into "She's really a Republican".

Rigt now though, it seems now the coverage is almost all anti-Trump, except for complaining about that idiotic Mother Jones millenial article.
posted by happyroach at 7:12 AM on September 19, 2016

I've just turned twenty-nine (so definitely a Snake Person) and she's really missing a note on mass surveillance and foreign military adventurism.

Because she obviously supports both, of course. I mean, I'm voting for her - I'd gnaw off a forearm rather than pull the lever for the cheeto - but let's not kid ourselves, the rich and powerful of all types are likely to support military adventurism and mass surveillance because those things (especially mass surveillance) make money for them and help them keep the lid on the populace. They're all like that because it is in their interest to be like that.

It doesn't hurt the interests of liberal political elites to extend rights to trans people or to agitate for equal pay for women - in fact, it benefits such members of the elite as may be trans and/or female, plus it legitimates them in the eyes of their constituents - but they're never going to do anything which threatens their financial or political power unless they're absolutely under the gun.

We tend toward magic-president-ism in this country - the belief that somewhere there's someone who will be wealthy and powerful enough to get elected, have the political clout to get stuff done and still somehow be on the side of working people, plus the belief that we should hold out for the candidate we can convince ourselves is all three things, plus the belief that if we don't vote for that magic candidate, we're somehow endorsing the system.

It's so easy to lie to ourselves about politicians - I want to do it myself about the Obamas, because they're smart, classy, value education, read interesting books, etc, and our usual politicians are cunning, classless potato-faces who hide any intellectual interests that they may have. And of course, doing that means putting aside the drones, the surveillance, the various exceedingly dubious actions in the Western Hemisphere, etc.
posted by Frowner at 7:14 AM on September 19, 2016 [25 favorites]

Hillary Clinton on NY and NJ incidents and Minnesota stabbing: "Americans will not cower. We will prevail." (video)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:15 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

So we're a pre-built nightmare dystopia in search of a leader.

Oh, good.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:16 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Who else would "drive" a bureaucracy but bureaucrats? We don't reinvent our mechanisms of government from scratch with each election.

I get that no one likes bureaucracy in the abstract but it is fundamental to the modern world.
posted by spitbull at 7:17 AM on September 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

I think that's the thing that I was maybe projecting or maybe accurately depicting in other threads: People are not talking casually about it in Philly. It's become a dangerous thing, because even if somebody votes HRC, they may be all lesser of two evils, and given the shit I've seen in my student essays, which has to be reflecting something in the air, people are ANGRY. On both sides.

Oh, yes, yes, yes. People are angry. That is America's default state.

It's not precisely correct to call America a perpetual Class War or Race War or Religious War or Regional War because none of those are, in and of themselves, always the primary contributor. But America started out with a document declaring "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" and has spent the following centuries fighting against that notion. THOSE people over there, if you can call them people, they think they're as good as ME? They don't know their place?

People wonder why poor people support politicians and policies that help no one but the very rich and privileged. It's because it's okay to be on a lower rung of the ladder _as long as there are lower rungs beneath you_ to look down upon. You can think "US" about your rung and everything above it, and "THEM" about everyone down below. You can be subservient to authoritarians as long as THEY do it too -- and treat you with the proper deference because after all YOU'RE on the US team, and when the authority cracks down on dissidence and unrest with Force and Getting Tough and No Sympathy and Profiling and Proactive Measures and Dehumanizing All Opposition, you'll be on the Winning Team and therefore Safe.

So yeah, on the right you have a lot of nostalgia for an age that should never have existed. Trump is merely the loudest and least artful voice shouting a common refrain -- we're going to reset America to when conservative white people were the only ones who mattered and everyone else'll just have to fall in line. Or else. On the left you have a lot of groups who've been told over and over that they are equal, that they matter, that they are being heard, but keep muttering to themselves then why are we still fighting the same fights? and then why does all the money and power stay in the 1%? and why are we not getting seats at the table RIGHT NOW?

And on both sides you have tons of people who only "know" what they've been told on TV or on the radio or on their Facebook wall.
posted by delfin at 7:17 AM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

RE: Mass surveillance

I think that Obama and Clinton have similar attitudes around it. I think that they feel it's a necessary evil and they'd much rather that they were making the decisions around it than the Republicans. So yes, he expanded it, but I like to think that he did it as responsibly as he could.

For the purposes of the election it's just a matter of which candidate would be worse and well...you know.

After the election will the time to push progress on this issue. Because I don't think it's a necessary evil, at least not without a TON more oversight and/or transparency around what that oversight is.

Clinton has the most lefty views on mass surveillance of my available options so I don't think it's worth talking about right now. But she isn't nearly as far to the left on that issue as I like her to be which, to me, makes it an issue to tackle after the election.

And, to a large extent, the progress that can be made on ANY issue greatly depends on what happens on the rest of the ballot.

Get her in office with a workable majority in congress and then we can work on dragging her farther left.
posted by VTX at 7:18 AM on September 19, 2016 [10 favorites]

Essentially, the security state is a giant self-driving bureaucracy. :(

Post-9/11, when we realized that we were now the target, the citizenry as an electorate started to demand perfection out of its intelligence service and people are ready to seize feverently on any perceived failures of that apparatus.

Now, because of that demand, we're caught between a rock and a shitty place.

Even if we could reform the bureaucracy it's difficult because a San Bernardino shows up and Congressman Protofascist R-Red State wants to know why Democrats are forcing the NSA to reign it in. Nobody wants to be the D holding that dick in their hands.
posted by Talez at 7:18 AM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

Every small bureaucrat contributes to the overall driving of a bureaucracy (and I disagree with Dr. Glennon as I do think the President has a moderate amount of power to rein in the surveillance state, or at least shift public opinion away from supporting it).

And to reassure everyone: I'm voting for Clinton despite her support for mass surveillance. I really like her in many respects, but I'm never going to agree 100% with any candidate. Doesn't stop me from supporting her (especially against the Orange Terror).
posted by stolyarova at 7:19 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Someone ought to tell him about all the gun enthusiasts who buy large quantities of tannerite and film themselves done blowin' it up to announce whether it's a boy or a girl.

That was neat. Just looked at it from the free wifi here in the jury selection room as I am waiting to potentially be empaneled, so I probably can look forward to a LE visit or am at least on a watchlist now.
posted by phearlez at 7:23 AM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

By what mechanism?

Prayer? Voting? Getting a time machine and going back to 2010 before redistricting could wreck everything?

All seem equally feasible from this vantage point.
posted by Talez at 7:23 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's going to be very tough to dial back surveillance, for the same reason that the TSA still makes you take off your shoes and pour out your water bottles. Whoever makes that call will be held personally responsible for any subsequent attacks. I wish this wasn't true but I don't know how we get around it.
posted by theodolite at 7:24 AM on September 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

Along with everyone else who was woken up to multiple emergency alerts this morning, I'm coming around on the idea of better surveillance, as long as it isn't unfairly targeted.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:25 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

By what mechanism?

Public opinion, voting, donations, lobbying. Same as always. How do you think nation-wide same-sex marriage happened?

Why, what other options do you think have a chance at success?
posted by VTX at 7:27 AM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

It's going to be very tough to dial back surveillance, for the same reason that the TSA still makes you take off your shoes and pour out your water bottles. Whoever makes that call will be held personally responsible for any subsequent attacks. I wish this wasn't true but I don't know how we get around it.

Pretty much. The second they allow liquids some asshole is going to bring a water bottle of glycerol and a water bottle of pure nitric acid through the checkpoint and blow up a plane by making nitroglycerine in the airport bathroom. The person who stopped the liquid ban would then be politically crucified.

How do you think nation-wide same-sex marriage happened?

Kennedy having a shred of empathy.
posted by Talez at 7:28 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Pretty much. The second they allow liquids some asshole is going to bring a water bottle of glycerol and a water bottle of pure nitric acid through the checkpoint and blow up a plane by making nitroglycerine in the airport bathroom. The person who stopped the liquid ban would then be politically crucified.

Welp, now we're a message board that tells people how to make bombs. Hopefully President Trump hasn't noticed ye--

NO CARRIER
posted by delfin at 7:30 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

as long as it isn't unfairly targeted

It always will be. The power is too easy to abuse - maybe not for Presidents Obama or Clinton, but imagine the NSA in the hands of Presidents Cruz or Pence or Trump.

Statistically, even with 'all these attacks' (there aren't actually that many - bombings were much more common in the 70s and 80s), the risk is minuscule and cannot possibly outweigh the massive violation of privacy. The solution is bravery, a stiff upper lip, and warranted surveillance, not more fear and the Panopticon.
posted by stolyarova at 7:30 AM on September 19, 2016 [9 favorites]

Surveillance seems to me qualitatively different than other issues, in that the costs are necessarily hidden until they become so large and so endemic that we are truly fucked.

With gay marriage you can point to the human costs fairly readily. You can make a poignant little video to share on Facebook with your homophobic aunt.

With surveillance and police state fuckery, what are you supposed to do? How would you even know what damage it causes until thirty years down the line, when someone finds the old Stasi files in a warehouse somewhere?
posted by schadenfrau at 7:32 AM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

Kennedy having a shred of empathy.

Kind of insults the massive amounts of work that people did to get it legalized in half the states before the SCOTUS decision and getting the Obama administration's public opinion on the matter to shift, don't you think?
posted by VTX at 7:33 AM on September 19, 2016 [18 favorites]

Clinton has the most lefty views on mass surveillance of my available options

Get her in office with a workable majority in congress and then we can work on dragging her farther left.

It's hard to say exactly which side is "left" on surveillance. Of the entire field of presidential candidates this cycle, Rand Paul was the only one who really got it.

And for all the discussion about her own infosec, and despite the fact her campaign uses Signal, Clinton is actively hostile toward people's right to use encryption.
posted by roll truck roll at 7:33 AM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

her campaign uses Signal, [but] Clinton is actively hostile toward people's right to use encryption

And that's the exact kind of Rules for thee, but not for me! attitude that turns off a lot of snake people.
posted by stolyarova at 7:35 AM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

I've been thinking a little about the FOP endorsement, and how the political umbrella group for the ground-level adjudicators of election day shenanigans (intimidation, voter suppression) has thrown its support behind one candidate, a candidate who explicitly states that law enforcement needs less oversight and not more. It doesn't take much prodding, or something concerted, just a few cops who feel personally insulted by NFL players kneeling and personally empowered by Trump, and decide to put their thumb on the scale.
posted by holgate at 7:37 AM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Just to add, I'm a writer by trade, and so it is literally my job to be fanciful all damn day. But I still can't help but think what I, as a writer, would make my head of the NSA character do around 2007, when it became clear Obama was gonna run. At that point my character would have been breaking the law for years, and they'd be looking at a candidate they knew next to nothing about, who did not seem friendly to all the law breaking. What would they do?

And then I have to assume that the head of any three letters is going to be a hell of a lot more ruthless than I.

And then I tell writer brain to shut up.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:38 AM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Kind of insults the massive amounts of work that people did to get it legalized in half the states before the SCOTUS decision and getting the Obama administration's public opinion on the matter to shift, don't you think?

The states weren't anywhere in context. You asked how gay marriage happened federally. It didn't have anything to do with a sympathetic president having a working majority in Congress.
posted by Talez at 7:39 AM on September 19, 2016

I think we're pretty fucked on the surveillance front, and there's no way to drag anyone to the left on this issue once they're in office.

Iowa legalized same sex marriage in 2007, the 1st state to do so (being married to a woman whose whole family is from Iowa, this is still very strange to me) and it wasn't legal nation-wide until 2015.

These things move slowly but they DO move.

Besides, all we can do is try, but if we keep trying, it WILL make a difference.

Somewhat ironically, I have the same attitude towards my health/weight. I'm overweight but I can't really control what my body does. Once I stopped making goal "to lose weight" and started making my goal "TRY to lose weight", I started actually losing it.
posted by VTX at 7:40 AM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

And that's the exact kind of Rules for thee, but not for me! attitude that turns off a lot of snake people.

I have bad news for them about the rest of humanity.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:41 AM on September 19, 2016 [12 favorites]

and they'd be looking at a candidate they knew next to nothing about

They're the NSA. Of course they know everything about him, his family, his friends, etc.

And I've no doubt they made sure he knows they know.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:42 AM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

I know, and I'm voting for Clinton anyway. A protest vote isn't worth it this time around. Maybe once someone awful gets in and does something terrible with his surveillance powers people will actually care. :(
posted by stolyarova at 7:43 AM on September 19, 2016

My friend who voted in the primaries for Bernie has now turned on him and is voting for Jill Stein.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:46 AM on September 19, 2016

There are many reasons to want Hillary Clinton for President. That she has a deep understanding of IT issues is not one of them. Possibly slightly deeper than her opponent - Gizmodo were semi-seriously asking if Trump had ever used a computer. But unless she's asked for a huge crash course in IT security (always possible after recent events) it's not an area of expertise meaning she needs to rely on advisors.
posted by Francis at 7:46 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

“I said to the team, ‘Do you know what this means?’” Bulls coach Ra Ra Barber said. “And they said that they did. So I went to their parents for their approval.”

On Saturday the Bulls players took a knee and placed their hands on each other’s shoulder before the national anthem began.

Barber told the news station that after learning of the death threats, he never imagined that it would “get to this point.” He added that the threats show “how far behind we are as a society.”

A Facebook message even called for Barber to be lynched.

This country. In 2016. I'm so sorry to the next generation. We were on a forward path I promise. The '90s were looking so good for the future!

Now we got teams of kids being threatened and people calling for the coach to be lynched. Where the fuck did we go wrong?
posted by Talez at 7:48 AM on September 19, 2016 [38 favorites]

The states weren't anywhere in context. You asked how gay marriage happened federally. It didn't have anything to do with a sympathetic president having a working majority in Congress.

Had there been a solid majority of Dems in congress, I'm pretty sure it would have happened legislatively. As it was, there was a TON of work to get it legal on a state level. Once it became clear that it was politically feasible to openly support same-sex marriage, Biden made his "gaffe" and then Obama supported it. THEN the SCOTUS acted. Those things did not happen in a vacuum and the SCOTUS would not have made the decision it did without everything that came before.

I don't think it was Kennedy's empathy (at least not only that) but that he saw the writing on the wall and didn't want to plant his flag on the wrong side of history this once.

Basically, the public shifted opinion and that pressure resulted in change through the channels that were available at the time. With a 2/3rds majority in both houses of congress, that change can happen faster because the channels to apply that pressure are MUCH more direct.
posted by VTX at 7:49 AM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

In the household hierarchy of the United States, civilians are the kids. We obey the rules and hope they were made in good faith (i.e. to protect us from harm).

Wow. I'd suggest considering what rights this analogy should not apply to.

But unless she's asked for a huge crash course in IT security (always possible after recent events) it's not an area of expertise meaning she needs to rely on advisors.

That's part of the problem. None of the experts support backdoors. And so, the politicians who do support them have created a narrative where the experts themselves are the problem.
posted by roll truck roll at 7:52 AM on September 19, 2016 [9 favorites]

I blame the harmonic convergence.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:52 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Obama wasn't even read into the NSA metadata program Snowden leaked until 2010. As someone pointed out, this is a large bureaucracy that operates in spite of the butt parked in the Oval Office chair. Over the last few years I've found myself reading a bunch of histories and criticisms of the various intelligence services, and I think it's safe to say that many of these organizations operate in purely defensive postures based on the Most Recent Disaster. After 9/11, the CIA, FBI, and NSA were just excoriated in the Commission Report, so now the institutional posture is that the protection of Americans by whatever means is paramount. Just yesterday I saw various intelligence talking heads bitching about encrypted communications and how they thwart their ability to stop terrorist attacks.

As an old-school privacy advocate who regularly used PGP for normal communication and occasionally hung out with Internet Famous privacy wonks, I've resigned myself to celebrating the small victories--like when that one Republican dude finally admitted that baking a backdoor into iPhones was a spectacularly dumb idea. I'm hoping that the elected Olds(tm) can be educated and advised and that the future elected Snake People and younger Gen X'ers can figure this stuff out better when they're in charge.
posted by xyzzy at 7:54 AM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

Had there been a solid majority of Dems in congress, I'm pretty sure it would have happened legislatively.

It's hard to take that seriously when a considerable chunk of the progressive agenda was only achieved by SCOTUS throwing shit out.
posted by Talez at 7:56 AM on September 19, 2016

This country. In 2016. I'm so sorry to the next generation. We were on a forward path I promise. The '90s were looking so good for the future!

Now we got teams of kids being threatened and people calling for the coach to be lynched. Where the fuck did we go wrong?

Much of America has changed, philosophically. Much of America not only did not change, but views both change itself and the act of asking for change as being dangerous and un-American.
posted by delfin at 7:59 AM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

President to comment at bottom of the hour (11:30 ET) on NY/NY explosions
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:06 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

What is that supposed to mean?

I'm agreeing that it took the SCOTUS to move this forward because by the time public opinion had shifted enough for the President to support it, the mid-terms had happened and congress was full of dipshits. I mean, a congress full of dipshits passing dipshit laws is kind of why we have the SCOTUS to begin with isn't it?

Are you trying to tell me that if both houses of congress were 2/3rds democrats and Obama came out and said, "I want to confirm that I support same-sex marriage.", that it would not have been possible to pass legislation legalizing same-sex marriage?

I mean, "President supports a thing supported by the public, democratically controlled congress passes law supporting that thing" is what we're going for here aren't we?
posted by VTX at 8:06 AM on September 19, 2016

Richard B. Russell Federal Building in Atlanta, GA evacuated due to suspicious package. (live stream)
posted by goHermGO at 8:09 AM on September 19, 2016

> "Iowa legalized same sex marriage in 2007, the 1st state to do so ..."

Having been in Massachusetts in 2004 ... um, what? Also, it wasn't legal in Iowa until 2009.
posted by kyrademon at 8:10 AM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

Are you trying to tell me that if both houses of congress were 2/3rds democrats and Obama came out and said, "I want to confirm that I support same-sex marriage.", that it would not have been possible to pass legislation legalizing same-sex marriage?

It wouldn't happen. For starters it gets incredibly iffy when you want to override states on what's clearly a state level matter. DOMA got pinged for this exact reason. DOMA basically overrode the states that had legalized gay marriage when marriage is clearly a matter for the states and that was unconstitutional. However, it's also unconstitutional under equal protection grounds to ban gay marriage but that requires you to ask of the Supreme Court the right question.

Secondly, even when the Democrats have majorities, the Democrats have a number of different positions on an issue. Ds are a big tent party so not everybody agrees all the time. We saw it with healthcare. We would have seen it with gay marriage guaranteed.
posted by Talez at 8:13 AM on September 19, 2016

This is New York: Thieves Helped Crack the Chelsea Bombing Case, Sources Say: The young men, who sources described as being well-dressed, opened the bag and took the bomb out, sources said, before placing the explosive into a garbage bag and walking away with the rolling suitcase.

In doing so, investigators believe they inadvertently disabled the explosive, sources said. That allowed investigators to examine the cellphone attached to the bomb intact and discover that it was connected to the family of Rahami.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:14 AM on September 19, 2016 [12 favorites]

Do we now have a Military-Industrial-Congressional-Security complex?
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:16 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

All I know about generation theory comes from some work done by baby boomers that was refined and developed until it turned into a best selling book and other profitable ventures.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:18 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump shatters GOP records with small donors

"Donald Trump has unleashed an unprecedented deluge of small-dollar donations for the GOP....

"Trump has only been actively soliciting cash for a few months, but when he reveals his campaign’s financials later this week they will show he has crushed the total haul from small-dollar donors of the last two Republican nominees, John McCain and Mitt Romney — during the entirety of their campaigns.

"All told, Trump is approaching, and has possibly already passed, $100 million from donors who have given less than $200, according to an analysis of available Federal Election Commission filings, the campaign’s public statements and people familiar with his fundraising operation. It is a threshold no previous Republican has ever achieved in a single campaign. And Trump has done so less than three months after signing his first email solicitation for donors on June 21 — a staggering speed to collect such a vast sum."

posted by monospace at 8:21 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also:

It's hard to take that seriously when a considerable chunk of the progressive agenda was only achieved by SCOTUS throwing shit out.

We might achieve a solid majority of Democrats in Congress in my lifetime, if we get fortuitous election results in 2020, favorable court rulings and surprising demographic changes. We will never achieve a solid majority of progressives in Congress -- not in my lifetime, not in yours, not in them added together. The conservative roots run too deeply in too many places.

People will point to when the Democrats had a 60-vote caucusing majority in the Senate for about twelve minutes. Well, no they didn't -- one of them was Joe Lieberman and another was Bob Casey and another was Ben Nelson and a handful of others were similarly conservative on many issues and not likely at all to allow their pet issues to achieve a filibuster-proof majority. That was the HIGH point for a left-leaning Senate in recent history and now we're fighting just to get back over fifty.

Now look at the House. Okay, don't look at it for long without special safety goggles.
posted by delfin at 8:22 AM on September 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trump must be kicking himself for taking so long to get into this incredibly effective method of parting fools from their money.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:24 AM on September 19, 2016 [41 favorites]

And it's all going on trump hotels, Trump steaks, and Trumpcicles, no doubt.
posted by Artw at 8:26 AM on September 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

Really, the story of Trump donators is like that librarian who had his behest wasted on a scoreboard except instead of a librarian it's dicks, instead of any decent use for the money it's dickery, instead of a scoreboard it's different dickery, and instead of being surprising it's super predictable.
posted by Artw at 8:29 AM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

This is New York: Thieves Helped Crack the Chelsea Bombing Case, Sources Say

If You See Something, Steal Something
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:30 AM on September 19, 2016 [51 favorites]

Are details on the Chelsea bombing really topical for this thread?
posted by zutalors! at 8:31 AM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

Also:

1. As has been noted elsewhere, most New Yorkers I know are feeling pretty darn un-terrorized by all this. It's just another thing that happened and was swiftly dealt with by the proper authorities. Nobody died, which is more than we can say for any given week of subway accidents.

2. I just realized, the damn UN General Assembly is happening this week in NYC! Probably the most obvious target for terror I can imagine. If dude had waited a couple of days and bothered to trek up to Midtown with his shitty little bombs he could've made international news for days, but noooo, he just stuck them within a couple blocks of his PATH train stop. Damn lazy bridge-and-tunnelers!
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:33 AM on September 19, 2016 [23 favorites]

Are details on the Chelsea bombing really topical for this thread?

Both campaigns are talking about it extensively, so I'd say it's on topic.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:34 AM on September 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

Thieves Helped Crack the Chelsea Bombing Case, Sources Say

And this: on Sunday night, two would-be thieves snatched a backpack resting atop a trash can near a train station in Elizabeth, N.J., according to reports.

They started rooting through the bag and found five explosives that officials say are tied to Rahami, prompting them to immediately drop the bag in the middle of the street and call police

We need a policy of "unattended bags will be pilfered".
posted by nubs at 8:36 AM on September 19, 2016 [12 favorites]

In the household hierarchy of the United States, civilians are the kids.

you have some weird ideas about how a representative democracy is supposed to work
posted by entropicamericana at 8:37 AM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

That Trump has raised $100m from small donors is...the most recent thing to feel like a gut punch.

What do we do, afterwards? What do the next 10 years look like?

I know we've got nothing on the 60s so far, but that is not actually encouraging.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:38 AM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

you have some weird ideas about how a representative democracy is supposed to work

Or a household...
posted by Talez at 8:38 AM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Are details on the Chelsea bombing really topical for this thread?

Both campaigns are talking about it extensively, so I'd say it's on topic.

If those comments connected to the campaign talking points about it, sure, but they're just Here is Some News.
posted by zutalors! at 8:38 AM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah the only people I've seen freaking out are not in New York. Which seems par for the course, at this point.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:42 AM on September 19, 2016 [23 favorites]

Regarding mass surveillance, I'm afraid it isn't going anywhere no matter who is president. That the capability exists makes it almost impossible to resist using, especially when there is a chance it may be used against "us" by another power. The growth in mass surveillance accompanied the growth in individual ability to inflict massive harm making it seem necessary to develop new tools to deal with asymmetrical threats.

The very existence of the internet makes mass surveillance almost a certainty whether by government actors or otherwise. All the closed circuit and state camera systems also fit that dynamic as the availability of the system and desire to use it by individuals makes it difficult to deny that system to the government as it does provide some added security benefits as a function of its destruction of privacy. Hard to take just part of a system without getting the rest of the package dumped in as well.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:42 AM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

In the household hierarchy of the United States, civilians are the kids. We obey the rules and hope they were made in good faith (i.e. to protect us from harm).

I don't think that's how it is supposed to work; it is undoubtedly how some would like it to work and would prefer it to work (and maybe that's the point you are making), but in a representative democracy, I was always taught that the role of the civilian (or, I would suggest, citizen as a preferred term) is to be engaged, informed, and to question rather than to just obey and hope. I thought that the idea of a paternalistic, hopefully benevolent-autocratic style of government (and family) was something we were continuing to try to move away from, not always well or with perfection. And that when we see that is the style of things happening, to try to work to change it.
posted by nubs at 8:45 AM on September 19, 2016 [9 favorites]

Jimmy Fallon on Trump Episode Criticism: I’m Never Mean to Guests
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:46 AM on September 19, 2016

Suspect in bombings captured alive in Linden NJ after shootout.
posted by spitbull at 8:46 AM on September 19, 2016 [9 favorites]

alive? i'm guessing the local pd wasn't involved then
posted by entropicamericana at 8:48 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

That Trump has raised $100m from small donors is...the most recent thing to feel like a gut punch.

I don't feel that way. Much of it is money that would have been sent to other scams without the same FEC visibility.

What do we do, afterwards? What do the next 10 years look like?

Part of the answer is "wait", but as the Brexit referendum made clear, a gerontocracy can sustain itself for a while, and for certain issues like climate change, waiting isn't an answer. (The irony being that the scare tactic about "Those People voting themselves handouts" works with senior citizens who think their own entitlements are sacrosanct.)
posted by holgate at 8:49 AM on September 19, 2016

They were, and the first cop who approached was shot in the abdomen.
posted by spitbull at 8:49 AM on September 19, 2016

Gov. Chris Christie was told of the George Washington Bridge lane closures as they were occurring in 2013, a federal prosecutor told jurors on Monday in U.S. District Court.

posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:51 AM on September 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

Richard B. Russell Federal Building in Atlanta, GA evacuated due to suspicious package. (live stream)

It was a backpack full of clothes. Folks going back to work.
posted by goHermGO at 8:51 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Suspect in bombings captured alive in Linden NJ after shootout.

It's wild to me. Suspected of setting off a bomb in NYC. Armed and dangerous. Gets in a shootout with law enforcement! Shoots one law enforcement officer, another is injured by falling glass, I believe. The guy gets shot in the leg, and arrested. Looks none the worse for wear in the picture MSNBC showed of the arrest. He's laying on the ground, and you can see his whole upper body. Meanwhile, black men who aren't suspected of anything really at all, or really minor things are shot to death by law enforcement officers. Isn't that something?
posted by cashman at 8:52 AM on September 19, 2016 [37 favorites]

WaPo is reporting, regarding the suspect's family's fried-chicken store:

In 2011, the Rahami family sued the City of Elizabeth and several police officers, alleging they had been inappropriately cited for keeping their business open past 10 p.m. and harassed by police.

They alleged a man in the neighborhood told them “you are Muslims” and “Muslims make too much trouble in this country” and complained unfairly to law enforcement, who singled them out “solely on animus against [their] religion, creed, race and national origin.”

Seems that xenophobic animosity could have played a part in the suspect's radicalization, if that was what drove him to place bombs.
posted by Dashy at 8:55 AM on September 19, 2016 [20 favorites]

Can we keep this thread on the election please? Do we really need to liveblog the arrest?
posted by everybody had matching towels at 9:00 AM on September 19, 2016 [15 favorites]

Shoots one law enforcement officer, another is injured by falling glass, I believe.

oh shit it's hans gruber
posted by beerperson at 9:01 AM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Can we keep this thread on the election please? Do we really need to liveblog the arrest?

If you're talking about my comment, look at Hillary Clinton's events page for today. Look at the events in North Carolina.
posted by cashman at 9:02 AM on September 19, 2016

Considering that the attacks and the arrest are going to be a huge deal for at least the next several days, I'd say they're very on topic.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:03 AM on September 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

Tales from Trump's buddy in Russia: Putin's United Russia Party Wins Big In Election; Some Ballot-Stuffing Seen (NPR, September 19, 2016).

Russia's parliamentary elections brought a landslide win for President Vladimir Putin's United Russia and its allies, in a vote that gives Putin a free hand in the country he first led in 2000. At least one incident of ballot-stuffing was caught on camera; officials say results from that station won't be counted.

"Amid low voter turnout, Putin's United Russia party carried over 53 percent of the vote, but single candidate districts means United will have a supermajority," Charles Maynes reports from Moscow, for our Newscast unit. "Not that they need it: The three other parties elected on Sunday support the President as well. Opposition parties attracted minimal support. "

Wherever we (in the US) are, we're not there yet. Best wishes and good thoughts to those in Russia.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:03 AM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

Law enforcement agencies have apprehended New Jersey resident Ahmad Khan Rahami (NPR article, with a promise to keep it updated to correct information - it sounds like no need for live-blogging).
posted by filthy light thief at 9:05 AM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

If you're talking about my comment

I am talking about the entire derail, not one specific comment. This is an election thread, not an all purpose news thread.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 9:06 AM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

Also, in Hillary's mic.com article today, she has this portion: "you've demanded that people of color be able to live their lives without fear of being killed at a routine traffic stop." The handling of this current situation is definitely germane to that conversation. Hillary says she has learned these things, so I hope and expect this will get referenced later. Trump surely has nothing in the way of addressing this issue. This really should get brought up in a week at the debates by Lester Holt.
posted by cashman at 9:06 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Mod note: Couple comments deleted. Folks, let's maybe keep the topic somewhat constrained in here, and also let's not go off into a meta-derail over what's a derail. If election news is in a slow stretch, maybe we don't need new threads as frequently; it doesn't mean we should just fill up this thread with all current events.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:10 AM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

I blame the harmonic convergence.

Tim Kaine would probably have a good 'harmonica virgins' joke here.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:10 AM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

Are people already working on debate drinking games? This one should be super easy, right?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:13 AM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh god I want that harassment to radicalization article to become part of the campaign fucking YESTERDAY
posted by schadenfrau at 9:13 AM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

Are people already working on debate drinking games? This one should be super easy, right?

Is it November 9th? If not, drink.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:15 AM on September 19, 2016 [14 favorites]

“I’m Hillary Clinton and I’ve always approved this message.”

New Clinton ad on economic inequality.
posted by chris24 at 9:16 AM on September 19, 2016 [34 favorites]

President Trump's First Term from The New Yorker
posted by chavenet at 9:17 AM on September 19, 2016 [9 favorites]

I don't think I'm going to be sober enough to play a game during the debates.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:19 AM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

We currently have a Democratic presidential candidate who was anti-same-sex marriage back in the early aughts, when she was a senator. The Democrats are a wacky bunch!

Yeah, politicians views and positions are a combination of what the person personally believes, what their constituency believes/wants, and what is politically feasible.

As soon as it was clear that public opinion was on his side, Obama could see that supporting SSM was what his constituency wanted and then he tested the waters with the Biden "gaffe" to see if it was politically feasible to support, since it was, he did.

Senator Clinton's position on SSM changed right along with her ability to support it without jeopardizing her political career.

The public moved her left on this issue. We can do it again. I'm not saying that it will be fast or ideal. We're not going to just end mass surveillance. I'm not saying that pressure from the public end these programs. But what we CAN push for, it improvements. Less surveillance, more transparency, etc.

The alternative is to just give up and FUCK THAT. If we try and fail, that's on them. If you fail to try, that's on YOU.
posted by VTX at 9:21 AM on September 19, 2016 [22 favorites]

“I’m Hillary Clinton and I’ve always approved this message.”

That's fantastic. I love that she actually says it at the end of the ad too.
posted by cashman at 9:23 AM on September 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

Are people already working on debate drinking games? This one should be super easy, right?

When the debate begins, start drinking. Don't stop until November 9.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:26 AM on September 19, 2016 [17 favorites]

“I’m Hillary Clinton and I’ve always approved this message.”

Wow. I'm not usually prone to frisson, but that one gave me a strong frisson. What a great way of putting forward a lifetime of work for social justice (with maybe just a little side eye at the candidate who changes his positions as often as the wind blows and whose only values are his own self-aggrandizement).
posted by jammer at 9:26 AM on September 19, 2016 [15 favorites]

Owen Ellickson ‏@onlxn 2m2 minutes ago

TRUMP: Ailes pitched me something... I'm mulling it. That's all.
RYAN: Is it something I want to know about?
TRUMP: I can't imagine, no

I have to imagine that every conversation they have ends with Paul Ryan cringing and praying he doesn't go to hell for this.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:28 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

I've been unplugged for almost six years now, so I almost never see commercials on TV, except for during NFL games on Sundays if I'm at a friend's or at a pub. I have to say that I'm somewhat surprised not to see political ads (but then again I am not in a swing state).
Are folks in Wisconsin, Ohio, Florida etc. getting HRC ads during football games?
I am seeing these wonderful ads like the "I've always approved..." ad above, but wonder when they are being aired.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:28 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

When the debate begins, start drinking. Don't stop until November 9.

Eh, maybe ease up on the 8th a bit so you're okay to drive to Canada.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:29 AM on September 19, 2016 [12 favorites]

Hillary Clinton speaks at Temple University in Philadelphia | Hillary Clinton (YouTube, live right now via HRC's YT channel)
posted by filthy light thief at 9:31 AM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

I've sen quite a few ads in CT, mostly during syndicated shows on USA, TNT and FX. [EDIT: Haven't seen a single Trump ad on TV here]
posted by JakeEXTREME at 9:31 AM on September 19, 2016

Trump Campaign Swings at Clinton for Accusing Trump of 'Treason'
posted by kirkaracha at 9:32 AM on September 19, 2016

Are folks in Wisconsin, Ohio, Florida etc. getting HRC ads during football games?

We (Ohio) get them during baseball games and I would assume during football games (I don't watch football so I cannot claim accuracy on that point).

Baseball is pretty much the only live TV I watch anymore so I have no idea if ads are airing during prime time, etc. I *think* they are.
posted by cooker girl at 9:34 AM on September 19, 2016

When the debate begins, start drinking. Don't stop until November 9.

I'm probably going to need at least 15 sober hours in there to fill in my ballot (all federal, state, and local offices, plus 17 California propositions and... 20 San Francisco ones?? I hope I'm misreading this list).
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 9:34 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

The audio on the Temple University livestream leads the video by about 2 seconds. Is everybody else having this problem too, or is it something specific to me?
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:35 AM on September 19, 2016

Oh gosh, I was just googling places to watch the debate in NYC and they're showing it at the Stonewall Inn! I might have to do that, even though I'm sure it'll be jam-packed.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:35 AM on September 19, 2016 [18 favorites]

The audio on the Temple University livestream leads the video by about 2 seconds. Is everybody else having this problem too, or is it something specific to me?

Yup, I'm not watching the video because it throws my brain for a loop.

"Majoring in the minors" - a soft jab at getting wrapped up in the small things, instead of focusing on the big topics.

- College calculator from HillaryClinton.com

If you're one of the 40 million Americans with student loan debt — or if you know someone who's about to go to college — use this interactive calculator to see how much you can save under Hillary Clinton's plan.

(“I’m Hillary Clinton and I’ve always approved this message.” - is that Twitter-hosted video the same as this one, titled Children? It was published on Jan 26, 2016 -- I can't watch Twitter videos at the moment)
posted by filthy light thief at 9:36 AM on September 19, 2016

It was kind of eerie this morning as I was leaving for work in NYC, my cell phones (one's for work) had those carrier 'alert' messages telling me to be on the lookout for Mr. Rahami.
posted by rosswald at 9:38 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

I clicked on the New Yorker link upthread. Read the article. Forgot to close the tab.

After a while I realized I had a tab open in my browser titled "President Trump..."

My entire body is now flinching away from my eyeballs.
posted by kythuen at 9:38 AM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

From that TPM story kirkaracha just linked, "Trump Campaign Swings at Clinton for Accusing Trump of 'Treason'":

While Clinton did not use the word "treason" in a press conference earlier Monday morning, her comments mirrored the language in the U.S. legal definition of treason.

How nice of Team Trump to make the implicit suggestion explicit.
posted by Gelatin at 9:39 AM on September 19, 2016 [35 favorites]

HRC calls out her opponent's hate speech, says she's still optimistic that America's best days are ahead, and mentions people by first name who inspire her, from a diverse background. None of this "friend in Mexico with a factory" or whatever BS.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:40 AM on September 19, 2016 [12 favorites]

How nice of Team Trump to make the implicit suggestion explicit.

Well, that's been the style with all the dogwhistles, so why stop now?
posted by nubs at 9:41 AM on September 19, 2016

Donald Trump Has Secret Plan to Destroy ISIS by Using Profanity:

Does knocking mean the same thing as bombing, or does it imply a completely different tactic? We have no way of knowing, and, more important, neither does ISIS. Trump is forcing ISIS to prepare for having either the shit or the hell bombed or knocked out of them. It could be any of these four things, or maybe all of them. This is exactly the kind of strategy proposed by Sun Tzu, or Clausewitz, or maybe both [of] them.

posted by kirkaracha at 9:42 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Greg Nog: "Get her in office with a workable majority in congress and then we can work on dragging her farther left.

By what mechanism?"

The rack?
posted by chavenet at 9:48 AM on September 19, 2016

“I’m Hillary Clinton and I’ve always approved this message.” - is that Twitter-hosted video the same as this one, titled Children?

No, it is not that ad. A new one.
posted by chris24 at 9:52 AM on September 19, 2016

Thanks!
posted by filthy light thief at 9:53 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Holy crap, that New Yorker article that chavenet posted is chilling and I am only in the early part of it

Trump aides are organizing what one Republican close to the campaign calls the First Day Project. “Trump spends several hours signing papers—and erases the Obama Presidency,” he said. Stephen Moore, an official campaign adviser who is a senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation, explained, “We want to identify maybe twenty-five executive orders that Trump could sign literally the first day in office.” The idea is inspired by Reagan’s first week in the White House, in which he took steps to deregulate energy prices, as he had promised during his campaign. Trump’s transition team is identifying executive orders issued by Obama, which can be undone. “That’s a problem I don’t think the left really understood about executive orders,” Moore said. “If you govern by executive orders, then the next President can come in and overturn them.”
posted by madamjujujive at 9:53 AM on September 19, 2016 [29 favorites]

"If you govern by executive orders, then the next President can come in and overturn them."

Well ain't it grand that the congressional Republicans have been so open and willing to work under the regular channels of governance, then!

And by that I mean...not at all! This election has broken my brain!

Rome was beautiful. I want to go back and grow my carb belly and pretend this is all a bad dream.
posted by Salieri at 9:57 AM on September 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

President Trump's First Term

That article in The New Yorker by Evan Osnos is very, very unsettling.
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:57 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh, everyone understood the problem with executive orders, it's just that congress left no other choice, dipshit.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:58 AM on September 19, 2016 [44 favorites]

From Josh Marshall:

Worth noting these two messages this morning.

Clinton Message: Be vigilant, not afraid.

Trump Message: Be afraid, also give me credit.

posted by Salieri at 10:04 AM on September 19, 2016 [73 favorites]

I had to close the tab on the New Yorker article. What I read will give me nightmares.

I'm on data entry duty in the Boston office; I can't canvass this weekend, but I think I need to do that as soon as I'm able. I would also like to register people to vote. This is getting scary.
posted by pxe2000 at 10:05 AM on September 19, 2016 [9 favorites]

my cell phones (one's for work) had those carrier 'alert' messages telling me to be on the lookout for Mr. Rahami.

I got that too, although it was maybe not the best idea.

"Montag jammed his Seashell to his ear. "Police suggest entire population in the Elm Terrace area do as follows: Everyone in every house in every street open a front or rear door or look from the windows. The fugitive cannot escape if everyone in the next minute looks from his house. Ready!"
posted by cashman at 10:05 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

I assume the NYTimes is preparing weeks worth of headlines about how Christie's knowledge of BridgeGate casts "shadows and clouds" over the Trump campaign.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:05 AM on September 19, 2016 [19 favorites]

Indeed, even more pessimistically, the trend has been going the wrong way for a long time. To return to finance, the last economic depression in the United States that did not result in massive government intervention was the collapse of 1920–21. It was sharp but short, and entailed the sort of Schumpeterian “creative destruction” that could lead to a real boom. The decade that followed — the roaring 1920s — was so strong that historians have forgotten the depression that started it. The 1920s were the last decade in American history during which one could be genuinely optimistic about politics. Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women — two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians — have rendered the notion of “capitalist democracy” into an oxymoron

Trump Supreme Court Nominee Thiel, everybody.

Oh, he later tried to weasel out of his regret about women getting the vote:

It would be absurd to suggest that women’s votes will be taken away or that this would solve the political problems that vex us. While I don’t think any class of people should be disenfranchised, I have little hope that voting will make things better.
posted by emjaybee at 10:06 AM on September 19, 2016 [17 favorites]

Isn't the executive order stroke-of-a-pen First Day stuff par for the course in modern Presidential transitions? Every POTUS in my living memory (so, since Clinton took office, probably) has engaged in this.

I agree that it's scary to consider with Trump, because he's such a fucking buffoon and has no idea what he's doing, but a Romney victory in 2012 would have resulted in the same thing.
posted by Sara C. at 10:08 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

The 1920s were the last decade in American history during which one could be genuinely optimistic about politics

Oooooooh, OK. So they are now admitting that the America they want to make great again is the Gilded Age.
posted by Sara C. at 10:10 AM on September 19, 2016 [17 favorites]

I agree that it's scary to consider with Trump, because he's such a fucking buffoon and has no idea what he's doing, but a Romney victory in 2012 would have resulted in the same thing.

I in no way believe that Romney would have Executive Ordered the Obama presidency out of the history books.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:11 AM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

President Obama’s First Day, NY Times politics and government blog, January 21, 2009

During a ceremony in Room 450 of the Eisenhower Executive Office Building, Mr. Obama signed the first executive order of his presidency, a measure intended to fulfill a campaign promise by closing the what he called the “revolving door” of people who immediately segue from government to lobbying.

“Public service is a privilege. It’s not about advantaging yourself. It’s not about advancing your friends or your corporate clients,” Mr. Obama said. “It’s not about advancing an ideological agenda or the special interests of any organization. Public service is simply and absolutely about advancing the interests of Americans.”

The rule would freeze salaries at their current levels for the White House employees who earn more than $100,000 a year. About 100 staffers fall into that category, if the salaries are in line with what positions paid during the last administration.

List of United States federal executive orders 13489 and above (Wikipedia, with EOs dated; List of United States federal executive orders, Barack Obama (2009–present))
posted by filthy light thief at 10:14 AM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

"The 1920s were the last decade in American history during which one could be genuinely optimistic about politics" -Peter Thiel

The 1920s were the heyday (for lack of a better word) of the KKK. Coincidence?!
posted by entropicamericana at 10:14 AM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

I'm assuming that he means the parts of the 1920s that were before Oct 29, 1929.
posted by octothorpe at 10:16 AM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

The 1920s were the heyday (for lack of a better word) of the KKK. Coincidence?!

The greatest days were those when the Christian White Man was king. Well, not king, in charge. OK, not all white men, but when some proud Christian White Men were in charge.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:17 AM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

Raising the prospect of relaxing America’s defense of NATO suggests that, for some portion of the American public, the long-standing American commitment to defending Europe is, in a word, negotiable. “We’ve had seventy years of great-power peace, which is the longest period in post-Westphalian history,” Shlapak said. “I think one of the reasons we don’t think about that, or don’t understand the value of that, is that it’s been so long since we’ve been face to face with the prospect of that kind of conflict.”

This is a perfect illustration of the problem - people who don't understand how bad it can really be are indifferent to what they might be triggering.

That article is so scary.
posted by winna at 10:17 AM on September 19, 2016 [24 favorites]

Isn't the executive order stroke-of-a-pen First Day stuff par for the course in modern Presidential transitions? Every POTUS in my living memory (so, since Clinton took office, probably) has engaged in this.

Not with quite such a flair of "Fuck that last guy" vs. "Here are some specific things I disagree with".
posted by Etrigan at 10:19 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

And never after 8 years of scorched Earth obstruction of the last guys agenda or indeed fundamental legitimacy and authority to even staff the government or keep its basic functions operating.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:24 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Here is a whole article about Trump's Mirror, by Leonard Pitts of the Miami Herald:

“I know you are, but what am I?”

Most of us outgrew the riposte about the same time we outgrew passing notes in class. Apparently, Donald Trump never did. Far from leaving it behind, he has honed it into a potent political tool perfect for this era of post-factual lassitude and cognitive dissonance. As Campaign 2016 grinds toward a reckoning, we are seeing that tool employed with breathtaking shamelessness.

It works like this: Whatever Trump is called or accused of, he turns it back on the accuser.

He's making the point the Trump is operating his entire campaign on about a 3rd grade intellectual level. That's about right . . .
posted by flug at 10:25 AM on September 19, 2016 [17 favorites]

The Atlantic: The People Behind 'The Apprentice' Owe America the Truth About Donald Trump

NBC News thought that it was newsworthy when former contestants on The Apprentice held a press conference to say that Trump should not be elected president. Surely it would be even more informative to hear from people who worked behind the scenes to shape the show across multiple seasons. Some of them influenced what millions believe about the billionaire. All involved in the show at the highest levels were paid handsomely for their work. Now they owe America the truth.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:25 AM on September 19, 2016 [39 favorites]

That article is so scary.

You betcha. Every time I really think about a Trump presidency, I'm actually afraid in a way that I have very rarely been. It's very irritating, because you look back and you think that at least Pinochet and Berlusconi and them weren't stupid. I'm haunted by the fear that we're going to start a nuclear war, murder POWs, accelerate police shootings and so on because the people in charge actually aren't bright enough to understand that, as fun as it is, violent authoritarianism has its downsides.

It's very eighties - I'm worried about nuclear war again and it all feels like the kind of eighties teen movie where the jocks/preppies/assholes beat up on the nerds because they think beating people up is fun.
posted by Frowner at 10:31 AM on September 19, 2016 [48 favorites]

It's very eighties - I'm worried about nuclear war again and it all feels like the kind of eighties teen movie where the jocks/preppies/assholes beat up on the nerds because they think beating people up is fun.

With a good helping of rage and insecurity at their place in the world, which can only be put to rest by putting someone else down, because it's all zero-sum.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:38 AM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

I keep thinking of the History Of Rome Podcast and how you can sort of see the empire ebbing away after a string of terrible, stupid, and vain rulers.

When I was first listening to it circa 2010, I felt like the US was uniquely in a better position than almost any other world power in history, because there is no way that an objectively unfit person can inherit the Presidency.

I did not consider the fact that the electorate might voluntarily vote Commodus or Heliogabalus into office.
posted by Sara C. at 10:42 AM on September 19, 2016 [42 favorites]

Everybody should go read the bizarre rant just posted by emjaybee upthread.

I remain committed to the faith of my teenage years: to authentic human freedom as a precondition for the highest good. I stand against confiscatory taxes, totalitarian collectives, and the ideology of the inevitability of the death of every individual. For all these reasons, I still call myself “libertarian.”

But I must confess that over the last two decades, I have changed radically on the question of how to achieve these goals. Most importantly, I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible.

Peter Thiel is a real breath of fresh air. Rarely do these VC wannabe feudal barons make their sneering contempt for the peasants so plainly explicit. What I like best about this is like a precocious boy having read about Qin Shi Huangdi in an old National Geographic, he daydreams of terracotta warriors in a sandbox where he can be an invincible god-king, where for him, "freedom" as an ideology has become so inanely totalizing that he feels like he is being oppressed by a society that refuses to allow him to transcend death. He resents women's sufferage because they pull him out of his dream by reminding him of his mother telling him to come in and wash his hands for dinner.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:46 AM on September 19, 2016 [48 favorites]

Trump Time Capsule #107: Sidney Blumenthal Is Not a Birther

Here is the real sequence of birtherism, as I’m aware of it:

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:49 AM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Every time I really think about a Trump presidency, I'm actually afraid in a way that I have very rarely been.

The Ohio State pol science professor quoted as saying "Americans are smart collectively, and if they vote for Trump I wouldn’t worry" is making a lot of assumptions that seem like a bad fit for his job title.

Trump's already conducted a highly-leveraged buyout of the GOP, and transgressed into the domains that modern presidential campaigns have mutually chosen to consider beyond the pale.
posted by holgate at 10:56 AM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

I like the idea of an NDA canary.

There's definitely room for a broad piece in a top-tier news source about Trump's routine use of NDAs with non-disparagement clauses: the terms of the Standard Trump Contract as a template to his career, informing his perspective on things like first amendment protections and even a kind of lèse-majesté.
posted by holgate at 11:09 AM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

The Ohio State pol science professor quoted as saying "Americans are smart collectively, and if they vote for Trump I wouldn’t worry" is making a lot of assumptions that seem like a bad fit for his job title.

Quick, someone ask a Kent State polisci prof about their thoughts on that.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:11 AM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump said today that "I should be a newscaster". Well, follow your dreams Trump, delete your campaign, go be a newscaster. Do your three-ring right-wing TTV. Get fined by the FCC. I have an "off" button, so it's fine by me.
posted by erisfree at 11:16 AM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

Why Trump is doing as well as he's doing.

Holy shit I lol'd.
posted by Talez at 11:19 AM on September 19, 2016 [63 favorites]

Why Trump is doing as well as he's doing.

The Mr. Burns disease-metaphor for Trump's immunity to normal PR disasters has been a recurring reference on the FiveThirtyEight election podcast, so I wonder if the GIF-maker here is also a listener or if the metaphor has gained traction elsewhere.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:24 AM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump said today that "I should be a newscaster". Well, follow your dreams Trump, delete your campaign, go be a newscaster. Do your three-ring right-wing TTV. Get fined by the FCC. I have an "off" button, so it's fine by me.

Yea that was my thought! Great! Go be a newscaster!
posted by zutalors! at 11:24 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Atlantic: The People Behind 'The Apprentice' Owe America the Truth About Donald Trump

Slate already had a small sampling from mostly anonymous Apprentice crew:

“He would talk about the female contestants’ bodies a lot from the control room,” recalls one midlevel producer. “We shot in Trump Tower, the control room was on the seventh floor, and he walked in one day and was talking about a contestant, saying, ‘Her breasts were so much bigger at the casting. Maybe she had her period then.’[...]

“At a wrap party at the end of one season,” recalls a crew member, “he gave a speech to all the crew. And at the end of it, he rolled out a couple dozen bottles of Dom Pérignon for us to drink. We all applauded. It seemed really generous. I’d never had Dom before. But later we found out from the people on the production side that he’d forced them to pay for that, so his gesture really came out of the show’s budget.”[...]

“There was a fat contestant who was a buffoon and a fuckup,” recalls the midlevel producer. “And he would fuck up week after week, and the producers would figure that he’d screwed up so badly that Trump would have to fire him. But Trump kept deciding to fire someone else. [...] Later, I heard a producer talk to him, and Trump said, ‘Everybody loves a fat guy. People will watch if you have a funny fat guy around. Trust me, it’s good for ratings.’ I look at Chris Christie now and I swear that’s what’s happening.”

That's probably the mild stuff that people under an NDA felt they could reveal without incurring Trump's litigiousness. For the dirty laundry the Atlantic wants, the magazine had better be prepared to guarantee court costs of whistle-blowers.
posted by Doktor Zed at 11:31 AM on September 19, 2016 [62 favorites]

TNR: Trump’s Racist Birther Gaslighting Strategy Has Taken Over the GOP
posted by chris24 at 11:37 AM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

This gem of irony, from Bill Pruitt, a producer on that putative reality show:

But we might have given the guy a platform and created this candidate. It’s guys like him, narcissists with dark Machiavellian traits, who dominate in our culture, on TV, and in the political realm. It can be dangerous when we confuse stories we’re told with reality.
posted by Dashy at 11:48 AM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

chris24: TNR: Trump’s Racist Birther Gaslighting Strategy Has Taken Over the GOP

This is top-to-bottom fiction. Whatever ugliness Hillary Clinton lapsed into during the 2008 Democratic primary, she was never a birther, nor were here aides.

But, you know, maybe someone with the HRC campaign said something, once, as NPR reminded us this morning (audio only at the moment, they'll post a transcript later.) Seriously, WTF. "We cannot say with 100% certainty that no one on her campaign ever questioned Obama's birthplace, because some unnamed reporter claims they heard someone from the HRC campaign say something." That's right, no quote from the reporter, no name of the reporter, no context or timeframe. But to balance that nonsense, Cokie was so good to point out that Donald got into politics as a birther, as helpfully detailed by ABC News (!!). Before that, he was just a blathering media/ real estate buffoon.

And I was so happy after this piece on the topic from Friday:

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING) TRUMP: Hillary Clinton and her campaign of 2008 started the birther controversy.

DETROW: That just isn't true. Stories have been written about a 2007 memo from a Clinton adviser that urged her to raise questions about Obama's childhood in Hawaii and Indonesia, arguing he could be portrayed as out of touch with most Americans. But Clinton never pushed this theory in 2008, and neither did anyone on her campaign.

Emphasis mine. The campaign may have floated the idea of making Obama sound "out of touch with most Americans," but there is no shred of evidence that anyone associated with the campaign supported, let alone started the campaign.

But we can't say that, because how can we ever be certain? We'd hate to have to send out a correction at some future date, should such proof come to light.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:01 PM on September 19, 2016 [12 favorites]

Having been in Massachusetts in 2004 ... um, what? Also, it wasn't legal in Iowa until 2009.

My mistake. 2007 was the county court decision and Iowa was in fact the 4th state to recognize that right.

It was the first mid-west state, however. I blame the error on the fact that I'm still flabbergasted that it was legal in Iowa LONG before it was in my home state of Minnesota.
posted by VTX at 12:04 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

But, you know, maybe someone with the HRC campaign said something, once

Reposting with added emphasis.

Now, where do Hillary Clinton and Sid Blumenthal fit into this narrative? As far as I can tell, and to the best of my first-hand experience, they fit in only in an entirely fictitious way.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:11 PM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

After reading that article about Mark Cuban and watching that Penn Jillette interview, I sense a theme.... "however bad you think he is, he's worse." Thanks for posting that Burhanistan.
posted by Spumante at 12:14 PM on September 19, 2016 [9 favorites]

Patton Oswalt: Sure Hillary started #birtherism. It's why Obama made her Secretary of State.

Are we even trying anymore or is everyone too tired?
posted by chris24 at 12:16 PM on September 19, 2016 [19 favorites]

Cokie Roberts herself famously referred to Obama's Hawaiian upbringing as "exotic" during the 2008 campaign. She meant how it sounded too.
posted by spitbull at 12:16 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

Cokie Roberts herself famously referred to Obama's Hawaiian upbringing as "exotic" during the 2008 campaign. She meant how it sounded too.

From 2008: Cokie Roberts on Obama's vacation: "I know his grandmother lives in Hawaii and I know Hawaii is a state," but it looks "foreign, exotic"
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:29 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

I live in Hawaii. As recently as last year, I had somebody ask me if we had the Internet in Hawaii. Via email.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:31 PM on September 19, 2016 [58 favorites]

What was the answer
posted by beerperson at 12:32 PM on September 19, 2016 [45 favorites]

I mean, Hawaii's like a day behind, right? :D
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:32 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Birtherism isn't "Oh lah de dah, grew up in Hawaii, did he? Well isn't that special..."

It specifically seeks to de-legitimize Barack Obama as an American citizen by claiming that he was not born in the US and is not eligible to be President.

I didn't love the "Jet Setting Beach Bum Obama" stuff when Hillary and her surrogates were pushing it in 2007-2008, but it is NOT birtherism and wasn't the inspiration for birtherism.
posted by Sara C. at 12:32 PM on September 19, 2016 [22 favorites]

After reading that article about Mark Cuban and watching that Penn Jillette interview, I sense a theme.... "however bad you think he is, he's worse."

And Penn, at least, is one of the few people who seems to genuinely like him. But, as he's said, he's also fond of Teller but thinks he'd be a terrible president.

(I'd say the same of Penn, and I expect he'd agree.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:37 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

> Maybe Trump is just trying to save Bush's legacy? He would make Bush look good in comparison.

Reading through this thread, this comment feels like it was weeks ago, but it was less than 36 hours... Anyway, the similarities in style between The Donald and the late Toronto mayor Rob Ford have been noted many times on the blue (not least by yours truly). However, while Ford was infamous as a laughingstock all over the world, comparison with his two immediate and less notorious predecessors bears certain parallels to the Bush-Obama-(possibly)Trump sequence.

His Worship Rob Ford won a surprise mayoral victory in 2010 in a campaign partly financed by the family company. He was probably best known for his broadcasting career. He also employed what he felt to be benign appraisals to show his respect for other cultures ("Oriental people work like dogs,") and pushed for deportation of criminal immigrants.

Ford ran in 2010 against the record of generally -- but not universally -- popular David Miller, an Ivy-League-educated two-term centrist, much to the left of Ford and whom Ford had openly criticized for years (there are to term limits in Toronto municipal politics; Miller opted not to run for a third term).

But the crucial bit most pertinent to bongo_x's comment above is Miller's predecessor: Mayor Mel. Mel Lastman was a long-time mayor of the suburb of North York, as well as once and future discount furniture store owner/pitchman, was notable for missteps and gaffes. There was the time in 2001 he was interviewed about his upcoming trip to Mombasa, Kenya to promote Toronto's bid for the 2008 Summer Olympics: "What the hell do I want to go to a place like Mombasa?... I'm sort of scared about going out there, but the wife is really nervous. I just see myself in a pot of boiling water with all these natives dancing around me." Then there was the time he was photographed shaking hands with a Hell's Angels member. Also, when his wife was caught shoplifting in a department store, he threatened to murder the reporter who covered the story (later city councillor and now Member of Parliament Adam Vaughan). Or the time he called a press conference to reveal a 14-year-long extramarital affair with a former employee (although he denied fathering her two children). And so on.

It was a standing joke in this house during Ford's term that the happiest citizen of Toronto had to be Mel Lastman, whose own legacy looked better each day.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:39 PM on September 19, 2016 [16 favorites]

I live in Hawaii. As recently as last year, I had somebody ask me if we had the Internet in Hawaii. Via email.

After I LOLed I tried to picture how that would work. So guy sits down and shoots off an email. It hits the coast of California and some poor schmuck has to type it out. The copy gets relayed by...er...telex. Picked up in Hawaii and the printed out telex gets mailed to your door. Right? Or does the email just get sent by FAX which is sent to your local FAX office and then they call you and tell you the message over the phone?

I obviously don't know how email, telex, or FAX work. I don't even think I know how the phone works.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:41 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

After I LOLed I tried to picture how that would work. So guy sits down and shoots off an email. It hits the coast of California and some poor schmuck has to type it out. The copy gets relayed by...er...telex.

Coconut, surely.
posted by Gelatin at 12:43 PM on September 19, 2016 [10 favorites]

There's not nearly enough swallows, European or otherwise.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:46 PM on September 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

Coconut, surely.

Dropped by a seagull directly onto the head of the recipient. The message is hidden inside the coconut like a fortune-cookie fortune.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:46 PM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

Amateur hour

Pro-Trump PAC “Liberty Action Group” Responds To FEC Inquiry Amid Lawsuit

A pro-Donald Trump political action committee that has raised almost $800,000 responded last week to an inquiry from the Federal Election Commission asking why the group’s filings lack basic information about its spending and contributions.

BuzzFeed News reported in August that Liberty Action Group has run radio ads soliciting donations to help elect Trump but has provided little evidence in its FEC filings as to where that money is being spent. The PAC is currently being sued in federal court in a class action complaint alleging the group robocalled thousands of people without their consent.

The FEC sent a letter to the group in August requesting more information about the organization’s donors and about those who received payments from the group.

The PAC’s director, 24-year-old Josiah Cammer, responded to FEC last week, writing in a letter that the group was unaware that they needed to list basic information about their donors in public filings and said they are attempting to ask their donor base for that information to refile to the FEC.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:47 PM on September 19, 2016 [12 favorites]

But birtherism is of a piece with other more "respectable" (dog whistley) efforts to "other"our first black president, I think, as "not really American," ranging from Cokie's "exotic" to Gingrich's "Kenyan anti-colonial" bit.
posted by spitbull at 12:50 PM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

After I LOLed I tried to picture how that would work.

I've related before the story of my boss who would have us FedEx him his e-mails every Friday when he was on vacation so he could hand write responses, overnight them back to us, and have us send them under his name from his e-mail. I could have easily had to send an e-mail that said "no I don't get e-mail where I currently am."
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:51 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

The PAC’s director, 24-year-old Josiah Cammer

Cammer? His middle name is Steve, isn't it?
posted by holgate at 12:51 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sometimes when I wonder why Clinton isn't leading living dumpster fire Trump by 99.99 to .01 in the polls, I think back to something that happened about 20 years ago.

I went to see a show by PJ O'Rourke here in Austin on the UT campus. I've identified as liberal/progressive/whathaveyou ever since I could first vote about [redacted] years ago, but I found some of Mr O'Rourke's stuff funny back then, and I thought that he was one of those few who really did take shots at both sides. Besides, I got a deep student discount on the ticket.

So I go to the show and I'm laughing at most of his stuff. He cracked wise about both sides for the most part, and -- this is important to note -- he pridefully described himself and the audience as "Moderate Republicans" as he knocked down both Republicans and Democrats.

Then Hillary Clinton came up for some reason. Not Bill -- just Hillary. After making some stupid joke about her, he said that if she ever ran for President, he and his fellow moderate Republicans in the audience would and should do everything in their power to make sure she lost....everything in their power.

That remark got, to borrow a term from wrestling, the loudest pop of the night by far. I remember looking around, noting the fervor with which everybody in the audience who was not your humble servant lord_wolf was clapping and hooting and hollering in agreement with Mr. O'Rourke's vow and feeling bothered on a deep level: remember, these were "Moderate Republicans."

And so here we are with two decades' worth of even the Moderate Republicans treating Clinton as if she were Truly One of History's Greatest Monsters.

I know there's room for debate about the level of the influence, but it seems to me that we can generally agree that constant media bombardment of certain imagery and categories of information can influence people's feelings for the worse: body image for women, racist imagery and roles for people of color, normalization of certain modes of violence, etc.

And yet I'm astonished by the number of people I know and see who say that "they just don't like Clinton" and/or who are convinced she is compromised in some way that exceeds the acceptable threshold for politicians who then deny the role played by the constant media barrage of negative data about her in shaping their thoughts on her. They just know it or just feel it; or there must be something there otherwise why is she always being investigated?

So, yeah, I was there when a vow was made to stop her at all costs and I'm seeing the fruits of that vow now. Given that, in some ways it's amazing that she's beating him at all.
posted by lord_wolf at 12:53 PM on September 19, 2016 [81 favorites]

> The PAC’s director, 24-year-old Josiah Cammer, responded to FEC last week, writing in a letter that the group was unaware that they needed to list basic information about their donors in public filings

I know this season has left everyone completely out of can't evens, but if I had a can't even left to give, I'd spend it on this story. So adorable - he's fresh out of College Republicans and entrepreneurial with his computer in his Mom's basement - what do you mean, we have to list donors for our grift?
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:53 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

writing in a letter that the group was unaware that they needed to list basic information about their donors in public filings

Reminds me of how Dave Chappelle described his white friend doing things only white male privilege could get you out of.

'Oh sorry officer I.....I didn't know I couldn't do that.'

"Well now ya know.... now get out of here!"
posted by cashman at 12:53 PM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

Obama Is Not A Keynesian, He's An American! (From 2010)
posted by monospace at 12:54 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Mod note: One comment deleted. Really not re-litigating the primaries; enumerating whether Bernie supporters or Hillary supporters are worse; etc. Not doing that.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:54 PM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

Then Hillary Clinton came up for some reason. Not Bill -- just Hillary. After making some stupid joke about her, [P. J. O'Rourke] said that if she ever ran for President, he and his fellow moderate Republicans in the audience would and should do everything in their power to make sure she lost....everything in their power.

May 2016: Conservative Author P.J. O'Rourke Reluctantly Backs Clinton
posted by Gelatin at 12:56 PM on September 19, 2016 [57 favorites]

From 2008: Cokie Roberts on Obama's vacation: "I know his grandmother lives in Hawaii and I know Hawaii is a state," but it looks "foreign, exotic"

FWIW, the part of Hawaii I live in looks way less "foreign, exotic" (compared to "middle America" - i.e. white midwest) than the part of NYC I used to live in. Everyone drives trucks. Most people work in blue collar jobs. Many people do not have college/graduate degrees. People shop at Costco, Walmart, Target. It's not majority white, but it has very low black population (there are unique racism/imperialism issues here for sure, but they're different than the legacy of slavery on the mainland). It is shocking similar to the deep red, rural area of the rust belt that I grew up in. The main difference is the attitude of the people living here toward their fellow humans and to the earth. Well, that, and we don't have the internet.

I love the weather here, but I cannot wait to get back to NYC next year. Nothing wrong w/ rural life, just not my thing.
posted by melissasaurus at 12:59 PM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

> After making some stupid joke about her, [PJ O'Rourke] said that if she ever ran for President, he and his fellow moderate Republicans in the audience would and should do everything in their power to make sure she lost....everything in their power.

And yet, PJ O'Rourke was pretty early in his endorsement of Hillary on Wait Wait Don't Tell Me, where he is the nominal conservative. Yes, it was snarky - "I disagree with her on almost everything" - but he was pretty clear that she was at least playing by the same rules, while Trump just wanted to set the house on fire.

So on the one hand, I agree with you - the current situation has been decades in the making, and the Clintons have been relentlessly demonized by the right wing. On the other hand, Trump may yet be a bridge too far for some fraction of Rs. Enough of them? Tune in on November 8th!
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:59 PM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

Reminds me of how Dave Chappelle described his white friend doing things only white male privilege could get you out of.

That special is on HBO Go; the whole "every black person qualifies as a paralegal" routine is as amazingly funny as it is sad, like fifteen or twenty years on, since nothing's changed in that time.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:00 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

(And well, Gelatin said what I was trying to say, more effectively and succinctly and in 3 fewer minutes. Sigh.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 1:00 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Kaczynski's past reporting on that PAC seems to make clear that it's an equal-opportunity grift to direct "media consultant" money into the pockets of the people running it, though pro-Trump donors had been more generous. Grifters all the way down.
posted by holgate at 1:05 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Kaczynski's past reporting on that PAC seems to make clear that it's an equal-opportunity grift to direct "media consultant" money into the pockets of the people running it

My first thought is, that's par for the course in the consulting biz. But then you get to:

The group has taken in almost $800,000 dollars, according to FEC records, but those records reveal little about where money is being spent and to whom it is going.

The group’s largest expenditure — more than $450,000 — is for a “media consultant.” No information is given as to who that media consultant is. Other expenditures like “cashed checked” for $1,000 and $3,500 are equally ambiguous

That's taking it to the next level. I'm just happy that it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:12 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

When I was first listening to it circa 2010, I felt like the US was uniquely in a better position than almost any other world power in history, because there is no way that an objectively unfit person can inherit the Presidency.

2010, so two years after the objectively worst president's two terms ended?
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:17 PM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

The group’s largest expenditure — more than $450,000 — is for a “media consultant.” No information is given as to who that media consultant is. Other expenditures like “cashed checked” for $1,000 and $3,500 are equally ambiguous

Team Trump referring to stories of this grift -- and likely violation of campaign finance laws -- as a "liberal witch hunt" in 5...4...3...
posted by Gelatin at 1:17 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Politico: Oil executive on Trump's short list for Interior Secretary

Forrest Lucas, co-founder of oil products company Lucas Oil and an outspoken opponent of animal rights, is a leading contender for Interior secretary should Donald Trump win the White House, say two sources familiar with the campaign’s deliberations. [...]

Lucas, who owns a ranch and serves on Trump’s agriculture advisory committee, is one of the biggest donors to groups that attack the Humane Society and People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and defend animal agriculture, hunting, meat consumption, rodeos and circuses. [...]

Earlier this year, Lucas financed and produced a feature film called “The Dog Lover,” which portrays dog breeders and puppy mills as being unfairly targeted by animal rights groups. The movie was backed by Protect the Harvest, a nonprofit founded and chaired by Lucas, that says it’s “Keeping America Free, Fed & Fun!” In 2014, Lucas gave $250,000 to the Protect the Harvest PAC, records show.

Roger Ebert's website called the movie “shamelessly manipulative” and “a pretty bald piece of anti-[Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals] and/or PETA propaganda,” noting that the movie ends with a call to moviegoers to look into animal welfare groups before donating to them.

Lucas’ wife, Charlotte, who co-founded Lucas Oil, came under fire in 2014 for a Facebook post that criticized Muslims and atheists. "I'm sick and tired of minorities running our country!” she wrote, according to news reports at the time. She later apologized.

Who's going to be his EPA pick, Hexxus from FernGully?
posted by Rhaomi at 1:20 PM on September 19, 2016 [18 favorites]

Team Trump referring to stories of this gift -- and likely violation of campaign finance laws -- as a "liberal witch hunt" in 5...4...3...

If anyone ever deserved a session on the dunking stool, it's these guys. On the other hand, witches are supposed to be smart, so.
posted by emjaybee at 1:21 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

2010, so two years after the objectively worst president's two terms ended?

Bush was not a good President, but come on, he's not objectively worst. He's not even objectively bottom ten. Buchanan, Pierce, Jackson, Tyler, Taylor, Polk, Fillmore, Andrew Johnson, Harding and Nixon are all objectively far worse than Bush, so, at worst, Bush is only the eleventh worst President, and you can make arguments for Arthur, Taft, Coolidge, Hoover, and Reagan being worse too.
posted by mightygodking at 1:24 PM on September 19, 2016 [12 favorites]

The one thing that pains me about pro-Trumpers who get grifted, either by "official" PACs or the Dinner with Trump scammer (via RedState, where the author opened by writing "Personally, I’d rather catch food poisoning, but…") is that people are paying money in the hope of leading to change. I'm thrilled the money is not going to make Donald do better (if that is somehow possible), but I can also imagine people sending money they should spend elsewhere.

I'm mentally putting these grifters in the same basket as people who hawk the prosperity gospel, preying on the poor and the gullible. I know that's not all Trumpers, and maybe not even a significant amount, but given his record-setting collection from small donations, this sounds more true than I could wish.

On the other hand, as long as people like Forrest Lucas don't come into positions of greater power, I find a glimmer of happiness that so much money is being sucked up and not spent on a better campaign, outreach, or GOTV efforts.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:24 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Sean Hannity is absolutely the right person to host a Trump town hall on African American concerns!

I mean, who else would be appropriate?
posted by Sophie1 at 1:25 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

Bush was not a good President, but come on, he's not objectively worst. He's not even objectively bottom ten.

i guess that depends on how you feel about shredding the Constitution and/or leading us into unnecessary wars resulting in hundreds of thousands of innocent casualties. if those things are not a big deal to you, i guess you could make a case he wasn't that bad.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:28 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think maybe a bunch of people have different definitions of "objectively" here.
posted by Etrigan at 1:29 PM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

Not only was, say, Andrew Jackson much worse than W, but while I disagreed with W on almost everything I still wouldn't say he was "unfit" for the presidency (unless that just means "does lots of stuff I don't agree with", in which case like half the presidents were unfit). Trump would be in a class of his own, IMO, if elected. (Jackson, for example, was super horrible, but competent to be president IMO... its just that his ideas/policies were terrible).

The stuff Bush did was not uniquely bad, although it was bad. I suspect Trump would be bad in a whole new, unprecedented way. Also I really really hope we never find out for sure.
posted by thefoxgod at 1:30 PM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

Sophie1: Sean Hannity is absolutely the right person to host a Trump town hall on African American concerns!

From that article:

Local pastor Darrell Scott addresses the RNC, July 20, 2016, at Quicken Loans Arena. Scott, a Trump supporter, will host the Republican presidential nominee at his Cleveland Heights church on Monday, according to the church's website

He knows that he's not President yet, right, and that he hasn't already ended the law forbidding churches, as a condition of their tax-exempt status, from engaging in electioneering?

We'll see if a vocal Trump supporter can rouse some more AA support in his church for Trump. The last time, Rev. Faith Green Timmons invited Trump to "thank us for what we’ve done in Flint, not give a political speech," and the audience didn't take kindly to his shilling.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:30 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Bush ignored the warnings and allowed 9/11, started and then fucked up two wars at the time time, destroyed the economy, and twiddled his thumbs while an American city drowned. Worst ever.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:30 PM on September 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

i guess that depends on how you feel about shredding the Constitution and/or leading us into unnecessary wars resulting in hundreds of thousands of innocent casualties.

W was not the first Prez to do either. Whether he was the worst at it is open to debate, but probably a derail.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:31 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

this looks like an awesome derail in the making here, let's drill down on this
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:31 PM on September 19, 2016 [42 favorites]

Bush ignored the warnings and allowed 9/11, started and then fucked up two wars at the time time, destroyed the economy, and twiddled his thumbs while an American city drowned. Worst ever.

Bush is arguably guilty of violating 18 USC 371 and 18 USC 1001 when he told all those things to Congress he knew were false in order to get the AUMF-Iraq.
posted by mikelieman at 1:33 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Good article about turnout and GOTV efforts here at Wapo.

It makes the point that one reason it's not a death knell that Trump has no turnout operation (though the GOP as a whole does) is that Republican voters tend to be people who are already very likely to turn out to vote. If your supporters vote 90-100% of the time regardless of turnout operation you don't actually need much of an operation.

On the other hand if, like the Democrats, your support is mainly from people less likely to turn out to vote you need a robust GOTV effort. But that effort is just getting you to where the GOP already is in terms of turnout and that's if you're lucky. The graph does show that if everyone turned out at the same rates Democrats would win handily. Which I knew but have never seen in a digestible format like this.
posted by Justinian at 1:33 PM on September 19, 2016 [10 favorites]

And yet I'm astonished by the number of people I know and see who say that "they just don't like Clinton" and/or who are convinced she is compromised in some way that exceeds the acceptable threshold for politicians who then deny the role played by the constant media barrage of negative data about her in shaping their thoughts on her. They just know it or just feel it; or there must be something there otherwise why is she always being investigated?

I'll add another data point here. My wife and I went out to dinner with her parents this weekend, and afterwards my wife and her mom wanted to stop to do some shopping. This left me in the car with my father in law with about 30 minutes to fill. First thing out of his mouth was "did you hear about the bombing in Syria" and I hadn't yet, but that was close enough to politics that he just blurted out how he couldn't believe how awful both candidates were, and that he'd never vote for Hillary but that he "doesn't want to vote for Trump." Translation, he's voting for Trump because Hillary is Hillary.

So against my better judgement, I tried to figure out exactly what his reasons were, and it's exactly the type of vague "too untrustworthy" / "too ambitious" bullshit you're citing here. This is a very articulate guy, but I've never seen him stammer and stutter the way he did trying to explain why he hated her so much. He mentioned Bill's affair, as if that was somehow her fault, and when I pointed out it wasn't, he pivoted into how she'll do anything to get elected, which I guess means he's buying the whole "she just stayed with him for her political career" canard, and then he brought up BENGHAZI! and I told him that was bullshit, and... It was fucking exhausting.

Mercifully, my wife and her mom came back before I lost my shit, but I am quite certain he's going to vote for Trump on the basis of the fact that her husband got a hummer and that she *gasp* wants to be President too much.

So, yeah. On the one hand, we have somewhat encouraging numbers here in PA. On the other hand, this bullshit.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:34 PM on September 19, 2016 [55 favorites]

One ugly statistic for our side: Hispanic voters turn out in Presidential elections at the same rate white voters turn out in off year elections. Ugh. VOTE. IT MATTERS.
posted by Justinian at 1:34 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

He knows that he's not President yet, right, and that he hasn't already ended the law forbidding churches, as a condition of their tax-exempt status, from engaging in electioneering?

The right wants to provoke the IRS into actually enforcing the rule and revoking a church's exemption so that they can sue over it.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:35 PM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

The right wants to provoke the IRS into actually enforcing the rule and revoking a church's exemption so that they can sue over it.

Bring it. There's not one word in the Constitution that says they don't have to pay their fair share for the benefits they receive.
posted by mikelieman at 1:46 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

One ugly statistic for our side: Hispanic voters turn out in Presidential elections at the same rate white voters turn out in off year elections. Ugh. VOTE. IT MATTERS.

Maybe we should focus on making voting easier for various demographics rather than getting upset with them as a group.
posted by zutalors! at 1:50 PM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

Bush is arguably guilty of violating 18 USC 371 and 18 USC 1001 when he told all those things to Congress he knew were false in order to get the AUMF-Iraq.

Yeah...

To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.
– Judgement of the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg

Bush the Lesser and his entire War Cabinet should be enjoying a peaceful retirement in The Hague, including Rice and Powell, whose reputation as elder statesmen somehow continue even as they are revealed to once again be spectacularly craven cowards unwilling to lift a finger in public to prevent the triumph of evil.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 2:00 PM on September 19, 2016 [20 favorites]

this looks like an awesome derail in the making here, let's drill down on this

Rats! Suddenly we're back on topic. I was really hoping to hear everyone's views on Taft and Coolidge. [edit: should've waited]
posted by kingless at 2:00 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Multiple Fallacies that Are Keeping Donald Trump in Contention

In Glenn Thrush's story about an interview with Dr. Jill Stein for the Politico podcast Off Message, there's a passage that catches Charlie Pierce's eye:

But [Stein's] contempt has a more cutting quality when she talks about Clinton. She mocks Trump as braying menace; Stein thinks he's, at heart, a bumbler who will be neutered by his own party after being elected. But it's Clinton who poses the greater threat, in Stein's estimation, because she knows how to move the levers of Washington. "Donald Trump, I think, will have a lot of trouble moving things through Congress," Stein explains. "Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, won't… Hillary has the potential to do a whole lot more damage, get us into more wars, faster to pass her fracking disastrous climate program, much more easily than Donald Trump could do his."

[...]

A long time ago, Trump used to be closer to the center on few issues, and liberal on a few more; as a result, too many Americans think his ideology as president would be hard to predict, and therefore don't fear him. Because he uttered what appeared to be a few conservative heresies during the primaries, it's believed that he'd be at loggerheads with a GOP Congress. And because it's taboo in mainstream political discourse to say that the rest of the Republican Party already consists of crazy right-wing radicals, it's believed that the danger come 2017 would emanate only from Trump -- you'll have nothing to fear from Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell, even if you have Jill Stein's politics.

All of this is nuts. Giving the presidency to any of Trump's primary opponents would have been bad enough -- it would have turned America into Sam Brownback's Kansas or Bobby Jindal's Louisiana or Scott Walker's Wisconsin. Trump, if he's president, will go along with the en-Koch-ening of the federal government in most particulars, then add his own craziness on top of that. He'll sign nearly every bill the GOP Congress has wanted to pass for years. He won't be constrained by Congress, except possibly on trade. And then he'll add his own madness on top of that -- with no moderation. Remember, he was more or less in the middle and didn't get to be president. If tacking sharply to the right gets him electing president, why would he let go of what worked for him?

posted by tonycpsu at 2:01 PM on September 19, 2016 [28 favorites]

And yet, PJ O'Rourke was pretty early in his endorsement of Hillary on Wait Wait Don't Tell Me, where he is the nominal conservative. Yes, it was snarky - "I disagree with her on almost everything" - but he was pretty clear that she was at least playing by the same rules, while Trump just wanted to set the house on fire.

O'Rourke's phrasing of this (especially the last sentence, in boldface below) is actually quite clever and worth quoting to any reachable conservatives you may know: "I am endorsing Hillary, and all her lies and all her empty promises. It's the second-worst thing that can happen to this country, but she's way behind in second place. She's wrong about absolutely everything, but she's wrong within normal parameters."

(But be aware that the first sentence echoes the Catholic baptismal vows and compares her to Satan. The More You Know!)
posted by The Tensor at 2:05 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

She mocks Trump as braying menace; Stein thinks he's, at heart, a bumbler who will be neutered by his own party after being elected.

Why do people think this? What possible reason do they have for thinking that Republicans won't just use the guy as a far-right stooge while flattering him? What possible reason do they have for thinking that he won't try to govern by executive order as much as possible? Do they seriously think that he'll nominate a supreme court justice who is too far right for Congress to approve?

It's this type of willful self-deception that drives me absolutely bonkers about certain parts of the left. You try to ask them for historical precedent for what they're claiming and they don't have any, but they feel totally confident that the Republican party as it exists today is going to move Trump to the left, and that he will end up effectively leftward of Hillary Clinton.
posted by Frowner at 2:07 PM on September 19, 2016 [39 favorites]

Peter Thiel is a real breath of fresh air. Rarely do these VC wannabe feudal barons make their sneering contempt for the peasants so plainly explicit. What I like best about this is like a precocious boy having read about Qin Shi Huangdi in an old National Geographic, he daydreams of terracotta warriors in a sandbox where he can be an invincible god-king, where for him, "freedom" as an ideology has become so inanely totalizing that he feels like he is being oppressed by a society that refuses to allow him to transcend death. He resents women's sufferage because they pull him out of his dream by reminding him of his mother telling him to come in and wash his hands for dinner.

VC-land is actually pretty homogeneous in its political views, but it's homogeneous the other way. If you look at the open letter against Trump, you will see rather a lot of VC partners of a lot of firms: USV, KPCB, Khosla, Witt, Javelin, and lots of very prominent angels.

R. Hoffman is putting $5 million towards getting Trump to release his taxes (and gave $1 million to Priorities USA). Zuckerberg has inveighed against him. E. Holmes actually gave a fundraiser for Clinton. M. Mayer has been democratic since before college, apparently. Brin and Page gave to Clinton also. Bezos was more libertarian before but he's now OK with WaPo being one of the top attack dogs against Trump. Andreessen supported Democrats until Romney, and switched back this year. Whitman ran as a Republican and then sat down and called Trump a modern-day Hitler. Also see this.

Silicon Valley remains in Northern California. Don't pretend it's not.
posted by hleehowon at 2:08 PM on September 19, 2016 [15 favorites]

Nothing you have said regarding VCs in general being against Trump disabuses me of the notion that they are more guarded than Thiel in their contempt for the peasants.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 2:16 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

“We shot in Trump Tower, the control room was on the seventh floor, and he walked in one day and was talking about a contestant, saying, ‘Her breasts were so much bigger at the casting. Maybe she had her period then.’"

for chrissakes he's like a 12 year old boy trading boob rumors after health class
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 2:20 PM on September 19, 2016 [20 favorites]

"Bush ignored the warnings and allowed 9/11, started and then fucked up two wars at the time time"

We'll lose the war that a President Trump ends up starting. Not Vietnam-lose, not Iraq-lose; Germany-WWII-lose.
posted by klarck at 2:25 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

Clinton's IT guy apparently asked Reddit how to strip sender information out of emails.

Reddit is politically important. [real, travesty]
posted by fomhar at 2:27 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

> No one I know is jazzed about mass surveillance, but I also don't know anyone for whom that's a make-or-break issue, especially since the Obama administration made it seem so palatable to the left. (Imagine, for instance, the mefi outcry if someone were to post in this thread that they're not voting for Clinton because of her stance on domestic surveillance! Hoo boy!)

I think it's possible it might come back up as an issue from the anti-authoritarian left if Trump wins

That makes me think of this piece by Ryan Cooper from back in February: Think the NSA is scary now? Wait till Donald Trump controls it.

And here's what he wrote today: The case against Donald Trump

Fourth, civil liberties. Trump's obsession with media attention is only rivaled by his intolerance for criticism in the media. He's gotten more coverage than anyone in the history of politics, but promises to "open up" libel laws so he can more easily sue news organizations who give him negative coverage. Like his prominent supporter Peter Thiel, Trump wants a press composed of nothing but wall-to-wall Baghdad Bob-style lickspittles, and as president, he would have access to the dragnet surveillance apparatus that could make that a reality.

posted by homunculus at 2:28 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

An army of reddit users believes it has found evidence...

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a favorite but an upvote.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:33 PM on September 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

Clinton's IT guy apparently asked Reddit how to strip sender information out of emails.

Those seem like pretty reasonable questions for an IT person to be asking, no? If you have an email archive you're going to release publicly and want to ensure an email address is redacted (so people don't heap abuse upon it), you want to do that programmatically (to ensure you don't miss any, because the FOIA redaction process is laughably error-prone), and asking others if they've ever done something similar is common.
posted by zachlipton at 2:33 PM on September 19, 2016 [23 favorites]

Still catching up on this thread, but...

My Hillary buttons, which I ordered at the end of the convention, showed up today. Which is good, since I'm moving across the country today. Just in the nick of time!
posted by litlnemo at 2:34 PM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

But the reddit user in question's car was disgusting, so I guess we can laugh at that for a while.
posted by zachlipton at 2:35 PM on September 19, 2016

Why do people think this? What possible reason do they have for thinking that Republicans won't just use the guy

I think it can be explained by noticing how tonycpsu's quote highlights the wrong enquoted sentence that the author is responding to. The author's paragraph directly says: "even if you have Jill Stein's politics".

What this is means is the author understands that Jill Stein's concern is twofold. One is about Hillary, and the other is about Trump. In that one paragraph, the author is evaluating Trump in relation to the conservative party and by ending with that clause makes clear that Jill Stein brings in some valid concerns.

Unfortunately, there are "historical" precedents informing Stein's point, but outside of Marxist discourse they are difficult to access. Zizek for example has discussed communist dictatorship's use of explicit versus implicit power, and the claim there is that's the same kind of theme or dynamic involved. A simple metaphor that preserves the Marxist view that's more generally accessible is the following: if we think of Hillary and her infrastructure as like a sophisticated technological tool (i.e. human capital) in the professional political domain—especially in this context of Hillary is more "competent" than Trump—then think about how all technological advances in history have not only brought about great positive change but also great social upheaval. That's the kind of issue and relationship that needs deeper development. The Gramsci article someone linked above touches on this divide as well.

Going back to Stein's twofold argument, her miscalculation about Trump is underestimating the relative harm that his election would bring, and the author makes this point clear. Yet Stein's blunt critique of Hillary Clinton (as expressed as part of a discourse and a language that mainstream liberals may not be attuned to, because of differences in background, etc.) is not totally invalid. It's not a fallacy per se. I'd suggest that it's the key to understanding what the left's concern really is, especially those left groups that seem to be really resistant or stubborn.

And I think I can say it that way because I don't hang around with the pejoratively labeled extremists or "suicide wing leftists" that are concerningly turning into this public scapegoat in a dismayingly illiberal way. There's a strong and compelling case that voting Hillary is the best choice; see Chomsky for example. While it's frustrating dealing with certain vocal leftist groups, if they are genuine leftists, then their values and concerns are not necessarily incompatible with the Democratic platform. Outreach is possible.
posted by polymodus at 2:37 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump Bemoans Bombing Suspect Getting Hospital Care, Lawyer:

The “bad part” about bombing suspect Ahmad Khan Rahami being captured alive is that now he’ll be treated to “amazing” medical care and an “outstanding” lawyer, Donald Trump said Monday.

posted by zachlipton at 2:42 PM on September 19, 2016 [16 favorites]

An army of reddit users believes it has found evidence...

Moment of silent gratitude to stonetear for not coming up with any of the ten billion disastrous and/or hilarious reddit usernames I thought of while reading this article....
posted by kythuen at 2:42 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

2010, so two years after the objectively worst president's two terms ended?

My point wasn't that we've never had a sucky president, but that we haven't yet elected someone completely unfit to be president.
posted by Sara C. at 2:44 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Holy shit just finished the Florida address (thank christ for 2x Youtube playback) and he was ratcheting up that rhetoric but it's so cloaked in, I don't want to say dog whistles because it's not really dog whistled...

You know how a trucking company can give a trucker a 650 mile route to do in 10 hours while knowing the speed limit for that same truck is 55 and then say "we don't encourage our drivers to speed"?

He was like that on torture. He didn't say torture. He didn't even say enhanced interrogation. He just said "use whatever methods necessary to obtain information before it is no longer timely". Innocent sounding but anyone with a clue knows there's only one way to do that and it's not a tea party with the suspect...
posted by Talez at 2:46 PM on September 19, 2016 [14 favorites]

This is standard level republican garbage rather than true Trump level republican garbage though, we'be been hearing this shit from them for decades.
posted by Artw at 2:47 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Torture is one of those sliding scale words on the right like racism. To whit, if it doesn't involve a rack, needles or burning, it's just enhanced interrogation - much like how if lynching and white hoods aren't involved it's just common sense stuff that everyone thinks but is too PC to say.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:53 PM on September 19, 2016 [12 favorites]

>Those seem like pretty reasonable questions for an IT person to be asking, no?

For sure. The question was specifically about header information, but the news is going to play this up as completely deleting every email she'd ever sent and also using the internet to murder everyone she's ever emailed and at least three babies from 'real' America.

the actual request-
I need to strip out a VIP's (VERY VIP) email address from a bunch of archived email that I have both in a live Exchange mailbox, as well as a PST file. Basically, they don't want the VIP's email address exposed to anyone, and want to be able to either strip out or replace the email address in the to/from fields in all of the emails we want to send out.

>Moment of silent gratitude to stonetear for not coming up with any of the ten billion disastrous and/or hilarious reddit usernames I thought of while reading this article....

I don't know, it might've been amusing for a bit to hear a bunch of newscasters arguing about reddit user PM_ME_UR_SANTORUM or whatever. Maybe.
There's nothing like thinking up a few hypothetical reddit usernames to make you love the tradition of just naming yourself after a talking spaceship like we do here.
posted by fomhar at 2:56 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Prosecutors and Defense argue Christie knew of plans to close bridge just to be a dick

And it's not only the prosecutors who are saying Christie knew. The defense team said the same thing.

>>Defense lawyers have also said that Mr. Christie knew.

It has been rumored that Donald Trump refused to pick Christie as his VP nominee because of the scandal and the upcoming trial.

Even Gov. Christie admitted it when he told NBC's Brian Williams that he was sure "it was a factor."
posted by petebest at 3:00 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Contra that article, I think it is more Trump's handlers refused to let him appoint Christie as VP and made him pick Pence.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:03 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

no no wait wait here's the best part of the Reddit Junior Detective Agency's shocking discovery

they're quite certain that he was asking how to redact the email address so as to conceal which of her emails were sent from clintonemail.com and which were sent from a .gov address

on her private server

take a moment if you need to
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:04 PM on September 19, 2016 [28 favorites]

Fucking emails. How do they work?
posted by Jalliah at 3:11 PM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

Fucking emails. How do they work?

Well... First Hillary Clinton downloaded the source code for qmail, then compiled it, and installed it before setting up DNS MX records...
posted by mikelieman at 3:14 PM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

Those seem like pretty reasonable questions for an IT person to be asking, no?

The second question, at the end of 2014 was just as innocuous. He was asking how to change the email retention policy so that email was automatically deleted after 60 days except mail moved to a folder explicitly for long term retention.

Note that this question occurs two years after Clinton has left office and after she has turned over her work-related email to the State Department archives. So he is talking about retention of Clinton's personal email as a private citizen.

This can be interpreted as showing Clinton's good faith about record retention. She had a save-forever policy for the time that she was in office. Two years after leaving office, and after turning over federal records, she changed to a 60-day retention policy for her email since as a private citizen she was no longer required to retain her email.
posted by JackFlash at 3:23 PM on September 19, 2016 [23 favorites]

The hypothetical Election Day thread has the potential to be the darkest one ever. I'm having trouble imagining how people here would react to a Trump victory, much less what a Trump administration would bring. Luckily, NPR has access to more creative minds than my own and was on this afternoon speculating about how The Wall would get built, what orders our esteemed leader would sign into being on the first day, what he could accomplish with Republican majorities in Congress.

You know: happy thoughts for rush hour commutes.
posted by indubitable at 3:23 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Mass surveillance - I would be much happier about it if it were declared that, since it's being done with government money for gov't purposes, the footage is all public domain, and after a ~90 day period, barring getting permission from a judge based on an ongoing, specific investigation, it was all released to the public.

They wouldn't even have to pay to host it; I know there are plenty of nonprofit orgs (and more would spring up) that would love to have thousands of hours of everyday-life footage to crawl through. Just throw it on a slow server with a torrent link and let anyone who wants it pick up a copy, and let the crowd bear the cost of redistributing it.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:24 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

The words "General Strike" have been resonating in my mind lately.
posted by spitbull at 3:27 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's not that hard to create an actually anonymous reddit username, people, I just fucking mashed the keyboard a couple times with my eyes closed.
posted by bq at 3:28 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

Mass surveillance - I would be much happier about it if it were declared that, since it's being done with government money for gov't purposes, the footage is all public domain, and after a ~90 day period, barring getting permission from a judge based on an ongoing, specific investigation, it was all released to the public.

You'd dox literally everyone?
posted by Francis at 3:29 PM on September 19, 2016

It's not that hard to create an actually anonymous reddit username, people, I just fucking mashed the keyboard a couple times with my eyes closed.

Me too, but "weedlord bonerhitler" was already taken.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:30 PM on September 19, 2016 [9 favorites]

Please Stop Sharing Links to These Sites

Not that any of you would.
posted by Artw at 3:32 PM on September 19, 2016

Moderator Announces Topics for First Presidential Debate:

Subject to possible changes because of news developments, the topics for the September 26 debate are as follows, not necessarily to be brought up in this order:

America's Direction
Achieving Prosperity
Securing America

posted by kirkaracha at 3:33 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Those aren't topics.
posted by zachlipton at 3:35 PM on September 19, 2016 [60 favorites]

You'd dox literally everyone?

It might be the only way to maintain a semblance of a balance of power in this new world we live in, but I don't think it's feasible without also massively overhauling our legal system. And culture... and. Okay, doing it perfectly isn't realistic. But do you want to live in the world where the wealthy & powerful have everyone, not just everyone doxxed, but the entirety of one's digital communications, digital media created, physical movements, expenditures, frequent associates... and the masses have next to nothing?
posted by polyhedron at 3:35 PM on September 19, 2016

I'm having trouble imagining how people here would react to a Trump victory

the race is called, start the clock

00:00 inchoate howling
02:00 problem drinking
10:00 regrettable MetaFilter comment
11:00 regrettable Tweet
12:00 regrettable Facebook post
13:00 more problem drinking
15:00 googling "california republic"
17:00 googling "bear flag revolt"
20:00 regrettable email to Governor Jerry Brown
25:00 yet more problem drinking
30:00 yelling at TV
45:00 pass out
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:35 PM on September 19, 2016 [32 favorites]

The framing of the topics are scarily Trump-Friendly. But then, it's hard to sum anything up into two words without killing truth.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:35 PM on September 19, 2016 [10 favorites]

You'd dox literally everyone?
Right now, the people who have that data are (1) law enforcement agencies and other gov't agencies that claim to have an interest in law enforcement, and (2) private individuals and companies who take the time & effort to do surveillance.

Those are not groups I trust with mass data. Lacking any way to remove mass data from them, I'd prefer to expand access broadly.

That said, I hadn't thought about the doxxing problems - I don't have an off-the-cuff answer for it, and agree that the idea should be shelved unless some way could be found to mitigate use by creepy guys going after their ex, or group swarms like g'gate.

Thank you for pointing out the facepalm-worthy hole-you-could-drive-through flaw in my clever plan. :/ (true, not sarcastic)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:36 PM on September 19, 2016

Making America Great Again
Building a Wall to the Future
Amendments, Schamendments
posted by kirkaracha at 3:37 PM on September 19, 2016 [16 favorites]

The framing of the topics are scarily Trump-Friendly.

we should just be fucking happy it's not

1. Emails
2. Why People Just Don't Like Hillary
3. Emails (reprise)
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:38 PM on September 19, 2016 [40 favorites]

1:00:00 Daft California Initiative to Secede from the U.S.
2:00:00 Post to Projects.Metafilter
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:39 PM on September 19, 2016 [9 favorites]

I've written about this before in surveillance threads, but Schnier's criticism of The Transparent Society remains as true as ever:

Another example: When your doctor says "take off your clothes," it makes no sense for you to say, "You first, doc." The two of you are not engaging in an interaction of equals.

Mass surveillance doesn't really get better if you share the data more widely. When you do that, people with perfectly legitimate stuff they want to hide just become more vulnerable. We're talking about people fleeing persecution and abusive situations, people who don't want aspects of their lives outed to everyone on someone else's schedule, people engaging in legal activities not everybody agrees with, etc...
posted by zachlipton at 3:40 PM on September 19, 2016 [15 favorites]

Those are not groups I trust with mass data.

But vigilante lynch mobs are. Alrighty then.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:41 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

The hypothetical Election Day thread has the potential to be the darkest one ever.

Well, if enough of us are blindingly drunk at the same time, maybe the Singularity happens and the universe resets itself. I know I won't be forming proper sentences past about 9pm anyway.

Hope and change and gin and tonic, people.
posted by rokusan at 3:43 PM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

>> Those are not groups I trust with mass data.
> But vigilante lynch mobs are. Alrighty then.

Come on, that's unnecessarily fighty, especially since they commented above about the "facepalm-worthy hole-you-could-drive-through flaw in my clever plan".
posted by RedOrGreen at 3:44 PM on September 19, 2016

1. America: Greatest country on the planet, or greatest country in the history of the planet?
2. The Muslim Question
3. Russia: The enemy within?

posted by indubitable at 3:45 PM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

To be clear, the problem isn't just people being stalked by their exes (which is, in and of itself, an enormous problem), but also your boss calling you in on Monday morning with footage on his laptop of you walking into a Planned Parenthood 300 miles away trying to shield your face with a baseball cap.
posted by zachlipton at 3:46 PM on September 19, 2016 [12 favorites]

If the country votes Trump we're not going to be limited interventionist. We're going to have imperialist boots on the ground in the middle east. Guaranteed.

Shocking I know, but those boots are already there and will be no matter who gets elected.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 3:49 PM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

Please Stop Sharing Links to These Sites

I've never even heard of those sites. Is this a big problem?

15:00 googling "california republic"
17:00 googling "bear flag revolt"

If Trump wins and California secedes, then yes, that's when I'd consider moving back there.
posted by bongo_x at 3:52 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

America's Direction
Achieving Prosperity
Securing America

I can write Trump's responses to all of these:

"Under Trump, we'll be heading in the best direction."

"We'll be achieving prosperity, prosperity like you wouldn't believe, you'll be sick of prosperity."

"BUILD THE WALL."
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:52 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

Shocking I know, but those boots are already there and will be no matter who gets elected.

Yes. Limited intervention. 50 special ops and 250 soldiers figuring out who to give more guns to that will bite us in the ass the least.

Trump's calling for 30,000 soldiers to be dropped in there for a start. Then we'll be "taking their oil".
posted by Talez at 3:56 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

1. Christopher Guests's Best Movie (not including Spinal Tap)
2. Pumpkin Spice: Yea or Nay?
3. The Military-Carceral-Extractive-Plutocratic Complex

posted by psoas at 3:56 PM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

The Pen Is Mightier
Colors That End In 'Urple'
Famous 'Kareem Abdul-Jabbars'
posted by beerperson at 3:58 PM on September 19, 2016 [24 favorites]

What's the MeFi consensus on Lester Holt? i don't watch network news, but I imagine, in this election, a black democrat from manhattan is going to go extra hard on Hillary so as not to seem biased.
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:00 PM on September 19, 2016

What's the MeFi consensus on Lester Holt

I have reservations about Lester's flow.
posted by Talez at 4:01 PM on September 19, 2016

No specifics on Lester Holt, but it's not lost on me that, aside from Martha Raddatz, who is co-moderating, it's entirely cable news people. Including someone from Fox News, in the final debate.

*sheds a single tear for Gwen Ifill*
posted by Sara C. at 4:06 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Just reading the words "trump victory" made me ill, so. I imagine in that event I get blindingly drunk, post a great many things to twitter, facebook, and metafilter, and regret none of them.

At least, not until the jackbooted TrumpTroops showed up to carry me off to TrumPrison in the newly renovated Trumptanamo Bay.
posted by kythuen at 4:07 PM on September 19, 2016

What is, a leather glove?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:07 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

18:00 Remove mezuzah
posted by Sophie1 at 4:13 PM on September 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

BuzzFeed: Trump Promised Millions To Charity, But Gave Little To His Own Foundation

“I don’t think I’m greedy,” Donald Trump told Playboy in 1990. “If I were, I wouldn’t give to charities.”

That same year, Trump would begin licensing his name for products — and the Wall Street Journal reported, he would donate the money to charity. Not only that, the Los Angeles Times wrote, Trump emphasized he would give the proceeds from his new book, Surviving at the Top, to charity (though he later told USA Today he might keep the money).

“I give millions for charity each year,” he told Playboy.

At the time, his empire was collapsing: The diminished mogul was fighting for his financial survival. And despite his grandiose promises, Trump gave just $135,000 to his namesake foundation that year.

The dynamic has been a pattern over the years. In the media, Trump makes lofty claims that he will give the proceeds of a project to charity, only to give far less to his personal foundation.

Quite an extensive list of promises made and promises broken.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:15 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

6:00 South of the Border
12:00 Maryland House
18:00 Wine tasting in Finger Lakes
24:00 Saguenay, Quebec
48:00 ice fishing with pet walrus
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:20 PM on September 19, 2016 [9 favorites]

"We'll be achieving prosperity, prosperity like you wouldn't believe, you'll be sick of prosperity."

"I'm sick of what Trump's done to our country."
"Me too, it must be ALL THIS PROSPERITY!"
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:20 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Fix: The 2016 map is moving toward Trump. But not enough. Not yet.:

...Clinton still winds up with 273 electoral votes — three more than she needs to be elected. That means Clinton could lose the four states we currently rate as toss-ups, as well as every lean-Republican state, and still win.

Why? Because what Trump needs to do and which he has been unable to do just yet is move states leaning toward Clinton into the toss-up category. If you use the RealClearPolitics averages, Trump's best chances there are Virginia (Clinton +3.5) and Colorado (Clinton +3.7). In no other lean-Democratic state is Clinton leading by less than five points in the RealClearPolitics polling averages. Polling in Pennsylvania, the state that Trump is convinced he can win, puts him down 6.6 points.

posted by kirkaracha at 4:21 PM on September 19, 2016 [10 favorites]

The hypothetical Election Day thread has the potential to be the darkest one ever. I'm having trouble imagining how people here would react to a Trump victory, much less what a Trump administration would bring.

That thread would be my last post on Metafilter, as I would no longer feel safe as a public employee commenting on a public forum. This account could be linked to my real name and employment trivially, along with every snarky comment I've ever made against the man then in charge of the NSA. I'm nobody, in a nobody job, but I'd fear for losing it with Trump minions in political posts with direct authority over my continued employment.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:25 PM on September 19, 2016 [40 favorites]

I just realized that with the exception of the entries between 15 and 20 minutes, my Darkest Election Thread Timeline probably wouldn't look much different from the one where Clinton wins
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:29 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

I haven't allowed myself to think too much about a Trump Presidency-- my mind skitters around it like when I think about old age or the death of my spouse. I have wondered about the suicide rate should he be declared the winner of the election. But like I said, I try not to dwell too much on the possibility because it is too horrible to contemplate.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:32 PM on September 19, 2016 [15 favorites]

Krugman: Vote as if it matters
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:33 PM on September 19, 2016 [12 favorites]

I hope Millenials take that piece to heart. Both of them who read Paul Krugman in the New York Times.

I'm being sarcastic of course but he's spot on. Millenials mostly recognize that Trump would be a disaster and they mostly don't agree with Johnson's platform, so please take this seriously. Your vote isn't about making yourself feel good or showing what an iconoclast you are, it's about the future of the poor and disadvantages in our nation. (And the rich and advantaged, of course, but they'll mostly be just fine either way.)
posted by Justinian at 4:38 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

I also keep thinking of the final scene in They Live.
posted by spitbull at 4:38 PM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

Interesting:

House Speaker Paul Ryan met with Ivanka Trump in New York City on Monday at her request, according to a source familiar with the meeting.

The source told Business Insider that Ivanka Trump, daughter of Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump, shared campaign updates with Ryan during the “productive conversation.” [...]

Ryan also shared with Ivanka Trump what he learned when he was on the 2012 Republican ticket as the party’s nominee for vice president, the source said.

We could FanFic the hell out of that but there really isn't anything concrete to go on. The meeting was also reported in Politico and The Blaze but no other details were given.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:40 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Pride and affirmative prejudice: Donald Trump and the Jews

Over the course of a months-long investigation of that relationship by The Jerusalem Post – resourcing court documents, media archives and original interviews with campaign aides, close personal confidantes, past lawyers, business partners and employees – both supporters and detractors of the Republican nominee agreed on one critical revelation: Trump seems to have something of an affirmative prejudice toward Jews.

They believe he considers Jews a group of rich, smart, successful and generally powerful deal makers – all traits which Trump himself aspires to, and has sought to emulate, while simultaneously touching on tropes described by historians of the topic as classically antisemitic.

“In some ways, Donald Trump and his relationship with the Jews is the latest chapter in a very long history of ambivalence and dichotomous relations,” Jonathan Sarna, author of American Judaism: A History, said in an interview. “The line between philosemitism and antisemitism is often a difficult one – the line is thin. It’s not bright red. Often you can find within the same person both tendencies, and Trump is a study in that.”

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:46 PM on September 19, 2016 [12 favorites]

Well, if you think all Jews are greedy but you also think greed is awesome....
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:48 PM on September 19, 2016 [22 favorites]

Trump “Penny Plan” Would Mean Large Cut in Non-Defense Spending

To help pay for his tax cut plan, Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump is proposing to cut total funding for non-defense programs funded through the annual appropriations process by 1 percent below the previous year’s total each year. While this may sound modest, the cumulative cut would be very substantial. By the tenth year (2026), non-defense appropriations would be about 29 percent below current levels, after accounting for inflation.[...]

The category of funding targeted by the Trump plan covers a wide range of basic services, from veterans’ medical care to scientific and medical research, border enforcement, education, child care, national parks, air traffic control, housing assistance for low-income families, and maintenance of harbors, dams, and waterways.

Critics say Trump's economic plan could cripple VA programs

Critics of Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump are saying his promises to reap big savings through small cuts to nondefense federal spending could have a disastrous effect on Veterans Affairs funding over the next decade.[...]

Trump did specify that military spending and entitlement spending would not be cut, and promised that middle-class families would see their tax bills cut by a third under his plan.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:57 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

In the final installment of cataloging the repugnance of the Trump family inner circle (Don Jr., Eric, Ivanka, and Melania -- sorry Tiffany, but...well, you know), I will highlight the most odious of Trump's grown brats, Donald Trump Jr.

Like his brother Eric, Donald Trump Jr. likes to slaughter megafauna with guns and pose over the corpses. Such actions suggest that the Trumps are very insecure about something.

Trump Jr. has made a joke that invoked the image of Nazi gas chambers in relation to Hillary Clinton. In fact, this man seems to really like giving a platform to American Nazis and their memes. He has appeared on a white supremacist radio show.

Donald Trump Jr. supports flying the battle flag of a violent, seditionistic, rebel army that fought to preserve the enslavement of African-American people.

Continuing in the tradition of overt Republican support for white supremacy, Donald Trump Jr went down to the Neshoba County Fair. Neshoba County's main claim to fame is the murder of three workers registering new voters and Ronald Reagan's campaign kickoff in 1980. Just like Racist Ronnie, Trump Jr. spoke at the Neshoba County Fair.

[...] [T]he Neshoba County Fair took on greater meaning when Ronald Reagan made it one of his first post-convention stops during the 1980 election. In giving a speech that stressed the primacy of states rights and the need for cutting down the size of the Federal government in a town that was home to one of the most grotesque lynchings of civil rights workers in recent memory, Reagan made a very clear statement to white Southern voters that his interpretation of the constitutional maxim that all men were created equal was in lockstep with theirs. In his visit to the Neshoba County Fair, Donald Trump Jr.’s intentions were no different.

Trump Jr., like his thin-skinned sire, can't take the heat when asked tough questions about the Trump Foundation which seems to be involved in pay-for-play and outright bribery.

Trump Jr. also worked for a company that scammed an elderly woman out of nearly $15,000.

While Eric, Ivanka, and Melania make me want to vomit, Donald Trump Jr. makes me want to set myself on fire. He is all in for white supremacy, racism, and oppression. Like his father and his father's minions, he is truly a deplorable man.

This entire family is complicit in, involved in, and supportive of modern Nazi/white nationalist ideology and practice. We must never, ever let any of the Trumps off the hook for the hate they have stirred up and the danger they pose to our Republic. I don't know what any of them could ever do to make it up to the rest of us.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 4:57 PM on September 19, 2016 [63 favorites]

I don't know what any of them could ever do to make it up to the rest of us.
A life sentence in a NOT 'country club' prison would be a start.
Where's my TRUMP FOR PRISON sign?
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:05 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

We could always leave MY POLITICAL OPPONENT FOR PRISON stuff to the opposition?
posted by Justinian at 5:09 PM on September 19, 2016 [17 favorites]

Totally cool for us to self-righteously castigate entire ethnic groups for their voting habits, though, let's keep on doing that
posted by invitapriore at 5:15 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Thank you,Excommunicated Cardinal . When taken altogether, your pieces provide eye-opening detail into the publicly known functionality of the four Trump Satellites. They are no better than he is and he's not ruled out public positions for any of them. I guess we'd get a family deal at a price to great to pay. Great job on these!
posted by Silverstone at 5:18 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Trump Jr. has made a joke that invoked the image of Nazi gas chambers in relation to Hillary Clinton. In fact, this man seems to really like giving a platform to American Nazis and their memes"

Can we knock it off with the whole "Pepe is an alt-right or Nazi meme" thing? Pepe is just a very popular meme overall. It's basically the whole HitlerAteSugar fallacy. Pepe belongs to everyone. Here's an interview with his creator about what he thinks about the whole thing. Basically, yeah, when something is popular it's going to be popular amongst a wide variety of groups. Calling Pepe a Nazi meme is weird. It's just a popular meme that's obviously being used by a lot of different groups, some good, some bad.
posted by I-baLL at 5:20 PM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

It's just a popular meme that's obviously being used by a lot of different groups, some good, some bad.

Much like the hindu swastika.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:23 PM on September 19, 2016 [44 favorites]

Can we knock it off with the whole "Pepe is an alt-right or Nazi meme" thing?

Eh. I will if they will.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:23 PM on September 19, 2016 [10 favorites]

It might be fair to say that since certain hate groups have used pepe as a meme, and the Trump campaign aligns with those hate groups, it's unlikely that the trump campaign using that meme is meant in one of the benign ways.
posted by OHenryPacey at 5:25 PM on September 19, 2016 [22 favorites]

The purpose of a system is what it does, i-Ball. If it communicates affinity for Nazi ideology, then it is a Nazi meme package, whatever its creator's intentions.
posted by adamgreenfield at 5:25 PM on September 19, 2016 [10 favorites]

Poor Pepe
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:26 PM on September 19, 2016 [15 favorites]

Trump “Penny Plan” Would Mean Large Cut in Non-Defense Spending

This budget stuff is just insane. I mean at least Mitt Romney knew something about anything. I can't even read this and believe that Trump understands basic arithmetic. I am just honestly floored by it, just wow. I still can't see this idiocy without believing that the current closeness of the race is a when-his-salary-depends-upon-it mirage because I don't see how anyone who has actually sat down with a calculator or Excel or whatever and done some work can get behind these ideas when it really comes down to it.
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:27 PM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

Silverstone: Thank you so much! I'm pleased that MeFites seem to have found these pieces to be a tiny bit useful. I've been so tired of news outlets treating this lot with the kid gloves. Ordinarily, I'm not too into going after family members of politicians. The one huge exception to that is when they insert themselves into the campaign.

While I would not be surprised at all to learn that they suffered abuse at the hands of their father, they are adults. As Jay Smooth has said, "Empathy does not preclude accountability." We must hold the Trump family accountable, as well as their obsequious, elected Republican retainers.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 5:30 PM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

Where's my TRUMP FOR PRISON sign?

I'd be happy with loser Trump. And somehow, I think that being known as a loser would hurt him more than being known as a felon anyway.
posted by tclark at 5:30 PM on September 19, 2016

My husband and I were talking about Dancing with the Stars today because of Ryan Lochte. We were trying to figure out which of the Trumps will go on the show after Donald's failed campaign. I think it will be Tiffany but I could also see Eric wanting to do it if he is offered the chance. I've never seen the show but I imagine they just want notorious people for the ratings. I'm sure no one was begging to see Rick Perry dance but there will be folks who tune in to see if he makes a (bigger) fool of himself.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:32 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

I baLL, while it may be true that the Pepe image is used by all sorts of people and groups, it is also true that it is being used by various people and groups on the alt-right to promote white supremacy. Regardless of what the creator may have intended, regardless of what other people or groups who enjoy the image in more benign ways might think, it is fair to call out the use of the Pepe image to promote white supremacy.
posted by Silverstone at 5:33 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

I sort of think Tiffany is more likely to try to fade into an anonymous existence as a normal as opposed to a celeb. She seemed the most profoundly uncomfortable of all the Trumps at the RNC. I could, of course, be completely wrong.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:34 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

"Vote for one Trump, get the whole family"
posted by DanSachs at 5:35 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Quick, chisel the flyflots!
posted by clavdivs at 5:36 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Excommunicated Cardinal, your point regarding possible abuse of all of the Satellites is well taken, but, as you say, they are all adults and can choose another path if they want to do the work. Without going into detail, I will tell you that I made such a choice. Not always easy along the way, but possible.
posted by Silverstone at 5:40 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Lulzy white supremacism is why we can't have nice frog memes."
posted by holgate at 5:42 PM on September 19, 2016 [19 favorites]

We could always leave MY POLITICAL OPPONENT FOR PRISON stuff to the opposition?

100%

Although after he loses the election, if there are legal issues that should be investigated, I would hope that the authorities handle them appropriately. For the sake of law and order.
posted by snofoam at 5:45 PM on September 19, 2016

Seen on the Facebook group Bitches For Hillary:

If you have anxiety about this election, I guarantee you are surrounded by too many white people. Turn off 24 hour news. Free yourself from their propoganda. Turn on black and latino radio. BET, Radio One, Telemundo, Univision are all broadcasting a message white America rarely hears.

On November 8th, segregated America will discover the power of integrated America.

God I hope so. A black woman I supervise says that her church is strongly hinting to the congregation that Trump needs to be defeated, and is giving out voter information. I hope this is happening everywhere.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 5:46 PM on September 19, 2016 [71 favorites]

", it is fair to call out the use of the Pepe image to promote white supremacy."

That's okay. I'm not objecting to people protesting bad uses of the Pepe template. I'm objecting to calling the Pepe meme in itself a Nazi meme.

" If it communicates affinity for Nazi ideology, then it is a Nazi meme package, whatever its creator's intentions."

Pepe is a meme character. He gets used as a template. This is similar to the "motivational poster" meme. Those also get used by white supremacists. Are we going to start calling motivational posters Nazi memes too?
posted by I-baLL at 5:53 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

I mean, if I were only listening to my personal bubble, I wouldn't be worried at all, because I don't know a single person who admits that they're voting for Trump. But sadly, my personal bubble is not representative, and the polls are concerning. I'm not panicking, but "just listen to an unrepresentative sample that makes you feel good" is not good advice.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:54 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Not sure why this is the hill you want to die on, honestly. Ask yourself what it is that people mean to communicate through the use of pepes in September 2016, why the character is used in a "Deplorables" image without further explanation. If it ever was a neutral image, it certainly is no longer.
posted by adamgreenfield at 5:58 PM on September 19, 2016 [21 favorites]

The Hang in There Cat poster was originally found in Hitler's bunker and became famous after it appeared in Life Magazine.
posted by humanfont at 5:58 PM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

Are we going to start calling motivational posters Nazi memes too?

Motivational posters got memed to the general public as demotivational posters before 4chan (and 8chan and Reddit-chan and whatever cesspit) got hold of them.

The whole motivation behind 'rare pepes' was to 'save' that meme from ending up like Minions in your uncle's Facebook feed. Instead, your uncle is now posting Nazi Trump Pepe to his Facebook feed. Sorry your meme got appropriated and popularised by terrible people.
posted by holgate at 6:00 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

if the neo-nazis adopt YES THIS IS DOG i just don't know what I'm going to DO
posted by delfin at 6:03 PM on September 19, 2016 [21 favorites]

We could always leave MY POLITICAL OPPONENT FOR PRISON stuff to the opposition?
Just one of the many ways the Right has been beating the Left for the last 30+ years.

There is SO MUCH evidence that Trump is a career criminal, that it is a miscarriage of justice that he is out and walking around, let alone flying to his campaign rallies. And a LOT of the blame for that goes to members of the 'Liberal Establishment' who were chummy with him while he mobbed up to get his Atlantic City casinos built and later torn down. The fact that he used to 'chum around' with Bill Clinton during a previous attempt to find a political path to power before his Birther experiment proved to him that Racism was the way to win only speaks poorly for BubbaBill.

And his whole "Crooked Hillary" pitch is "Trump's Mirror" to the nth degree. An America where he and his family are free to "do business" and he was given the opportunity to run for President is not that much better than an America where he IS the President.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:04 PM on September 19, 2016 [15 favorites]

qft
posted by mazola at 6:04 PM on September 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

The only way the current state of affairs really makes any sense to me is to view the present national media conversation as the kind of thing that happens at the end of a good party when everyone is becoming a little less drunk and wishing it wasn't about to end with everyone going their separate ways. Sure, let's all go to Iceland together..! Let's make big plans...

Part of me wonders if we're not in a weird interregnum where there's no network coverage plan until the debates. In trying to imagine what's going on structurally with the media it's hard not to look at how NBC stage managed the Olympics and think that they're each off in their own world, marching to the beat of their own drummer and thinking about how they can orchestrate this to maximize drama in a way that advances their own goals. Maybe they're just not into the "oh yeah, we're serious journalists after all" phase or maybe they're totally rudderless and just purely reacting.

So many assumptions about how things work are going to be revisited for years after this shitshow, long after Trump's presence has faded into infomercial obscurity. People have been served a reminder that the rules have changed and maybe in some cases never really existed in the first place. For every little girl who might now have the opportunity to see herself as a future president, there's someone who sees Trump's behavior being accepted and thinks that that now they can get away with a whole lot more cruelty than they could a year ago. In a world so cynical as ours, can you really believe that love trumps hate? It's the ultimate political gut-check moment.

If you have anxiety about this election...

I really hope this is true also. I live in one of the most diverse cities in the US and even still I have to recognize that I'm in a huge bubble.
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:08 PM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

Trump says that he won't say his temperament is his strongest trait. O'Reilly points out that he just did:

How does Bill do this with a straight face? At some point you've got to just tweak out and think "what the fuck am I seriously doing here?"
posted by Talez at 6:11 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

In a world so cynical as ours, can you really believe that love trumps hate?

Well, that's what the ultimate poll will reveal.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:12 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

/imagines grim world where most people know the Hang On In There kitten through its appropriation by some Reagan era white supremacist group.
posted by Artw at 6:13 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

I've been following the Oklahoma story on Twitter all evening, so I'm full of cynicism.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:13 PM on September 19, 2016

a LOT of the blame for that goes to members of the 'Liberal Establishment' who were chummy with him while he mobbed up to get his Atlantic City casinos built and later torn down.

There's a lot of truth to this: Trump as 'Trump' was a creation of Page Six and the NYT Style section, and allowed to pretend at being a billionaire for decades, an outsourced id wrapped in orange flesh and topped with a Shredded Wheat, which took some of the spotlight off NYC's actual billionaires; while he was content mostly to stiff the poor schmucks who bought into the image and not the reality, there was relatively little pushback. Maybe they expected the whole leveraged house of cards to come down, and yet people like Jeff Zucker kept him going, slushing money between various enterprises, until this. There's a fucking decadence to it.
posted by holgate at 6:17 PM on September 19, 2016 [10 favorites]

Did we get to Junior comparing refugees to Skittles? Nope?

Well that happened.
posted by Talez at 6:24 PM on September 19, 2016 [14 favorites]

If Hitler had had billionaire art patrons, that's no guarantee he wouldn't have become Hitler, anyway.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:24 PM on September 19, 2016

Counterpoint #1 to refugees are deadly Skittles: Hey, GOP Fearmongers: Not One Terrorist Act by Refugees in U.S.

Counterpoint #2 to refugees are deadly Skittles: not a skittle
posted by Talez at 6:28 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

I will show you fear in a handful of Skittles.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:31 PM on September 19, 2016 [15 favorites]

Trump says he never said he wanted to profile Muslims. This is a link to his campaign website proposing a Muslim ban https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration

I'm so very, very tired already. It's just... What's real anymore? This campaign is a dumpster fire. There's no ground game. He's quite literally insane. But this is still competitive. Why isn't every talking head on cable just screaming "PEOPLE YOU CAN'T BE FUCKING SERIOUS HERE?"
posted by Talez at 6:32 PM on September 19, 2016 [36 favorites]

I'm still aghast at The NY Times and it's mock shock and horror at a rowdy fried chicken shop.

The late night crowd were loud and obnoxious? Gasp!
posted by Artw at 6:32 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

A bowl of skittles and a taco truck on every corner. Sign me up.
posted by mazola at 6:33 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

The late night crowd were loud and obnoxious?

Loud and Obnoxious? In New York City? I say, poor show, what!
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:34 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

I bet Junior has a an appearance rider that demands all the brown M&Ms be removed.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:35 PM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

As an almost lifetime fan of good frogs like Kermit and Michigan J. and Hoppity Hooper and Froggy's Magic Twanger (and he was a self-proclaimed Gremlin!), I took one look at Pepe the Frog and thought "this ugly ass amphibian is a new less-human version of the 'trollface' created by the same anti-artist and his Microsoft Paint and an insult to real frogs (and even toads) everywhere." And shouldn't Trumpists be calling for the deportation of frogs with mexican-sounding names anyway? I'm just massively relieved that the fascists and hate-mongers chose that animal to adopt instead of keyboard cat or grumpy cat or (heavens, no!!!) doge or bucket walrus or dramatic chipmunk prairie dog.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:37 PM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

Are we going to start calling motivational posters Nazi memes too?

Leni Riefenstahl practically invented the genre.

Google Image search .... know your tolerance.
posted by spitbull at 6:43 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

Loud and Obnoxious? In New York City? I say, poor show, what!

In a clear show of terrorist leanings a customer urinated in a local driveway. There have been disputes about closing times also!
posted by Artw at 6:43 PM on September 19, 2016

The Skittles bit is pretty much like the Mefi-favorite poop milkshake analogy - I'd bet the Skittles thing started as a criticism of "not all men" arguments that try to paint reaction against abuse or prejudice as the real prejudice. So this version is your typical tiresome smug inversion, meant as a gotcha for liberals, just like your average "but what if you had said that about [minority] instead of [majority]" one-liner.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 6:44 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Clinton, Trump to both meet with Egyptian president at U.N.
posted by rosswald at 6:44 PM on September 19, 2016

Well, on the bright side, interest in defending victims of cultural appropriation seems to have ticked up a bit.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:45 PM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

Clinton, Trump to both meet with Egyptian president at U.N.

At least they can agree that it's very important to support the good Middle East dictators and oppose the bad Middle East dictators.
posted by indubitable at 6:48 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Shorter Skittles paraphrase: nuh-uh you're the deplorables!
posted by knuckle tattoos at 6:51 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Just one more thing that's absolutely horrific to everyone but Trump voters.
posted by bibliowench at 6:54 PM on September 19, 2016

I'm curious whether the Mars Candy Co. would be able to cease-and-desist this crap, if they were so inclined.
posted by saturday_morning at 6:54 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Absolutely, they could.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:59 PM on September 19, 2016

Diiiiid... they just appropriate a feminist meme about rape culture?

(Protip, in that analogy, we're not advocating sending all men into a warzone where their entire family is likely to die by violence or starvation because some men commit sexual violence. #knowyourmemes)
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:59 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

OK, I have a little more time now so let me expand on my Hindu swastika thing.

The Hindu religion had used the swastika as a symbol of Lord Vishnu for centuries before Hitler co-opted it. Its still a symbol of Lord Vishnu but, unfortunately, for most of the world it is associated with the Nazis. Thus, while its true that all depictions of the swastika are not intended to invoke Nazi-ism, that is often the first thing people think of when they see the symbol.

Unfortunately for poor ol' Pepe, one of the least rare forms he's taken of late has been as an alt-right mascot. While there's literally thousands of examples of Pepes that have nothing to do with alt-right, by consistently tagging their images with Pepe, the alt-right has created an associating between Pepe and all sorts of racism, sexism, deplorableness. Perhaps members of the alt-right is doing this to court the valuable 4chan vote, perhaps its just a dumb thing (probably its just a dumb thing), but by doing this, they've created an unfortunate situation where the first thing many people think of when they see Pepe is "white supremacy."

This obviously sucks, just as it sucks for the many Hindu who hold the swastika as an important symbol of their religion. Indeed, I would say on the cultural appropriation scale, stealing one of a religion's symbols and turning it into a symbol of a hateful movement is a shittier thing to do than borrowing a meme-frog. Either way, though, its a shitty thing for people who have more benign associations with the symbol.

Regarding motivational posters, style is also something that can come to be associated with certain political movements. Leni Riefenstahl's distinct film-making style is so specifically associated with Nazi Germany that there was some controversy when Starship Troopers came out there was some controversy about how the style of that film seemed distinctly influenced by Riefenstahl. I mean, that was the point.

Oh! Or the Shepard Fairey "Obama Hope" poster! Those colors and that layout are very closely associated with Obama now and anytime somebody uses them they're usually making some sort of point (smart, or dumb, or serious, or ironic) related to Obama and his campaign.

At the moment, the Motivational Poster template is not widely associated with any political movement, but it could be if somebody worked hard enough.

I don't think the co-opting of Pepe has gone so far that the little guy is completely irredeemable yet, but the alt-right's use of Pepe's image has gone a long way to make him a symbol of hate. That's a shame and its not the fault of anyone using Pepe in a sillier way but it does mean that you should think twice before making him the symbol of your new business or webpage. You might attract people you don't want and repulse people you do.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:00 PM on September 19, 2016 [24 favorites]

Trump says that he won't say his temperament is his strongest trait. O'Reilly points out that he just did.

These transcripts are a marvel to read. To begin with, O'Reilly asks Trump to refute the argument that treating Muslims like second-class citizens will only exacerbate the radicalization that he's trying to stamp out. In a paragraph-long response, Trump does not devote a single word to actually answering O'Reilly's question. Then O'Reilly's retort: although he admirably (!) points out Trump's self-contradiction, O'Reilly totally fails to return to the question he just asked. Instead, he allows Trump to dictate the new subject of their conversation and follows Trump's lead without so much as a whimper of the original (very salient) question.

Trump cannot even begin to respond intelligently to this question, and O'Reilly is either too cowed, too complicit, or too distracted by Trump's bluster to hold his feet to the fire.

PS the first debate is now less than one week away.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 7:12 PM on September 19, 2016 [9 favorites]

Trump cannot even begin to respond intelligently to this question, and O'Reilly is either too cowed, too complicit, or too distracted by Trump's bluster to hold his feet to the fire.

To be fair, neither one of these men has ever actually listened to another human being.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 7:15 PM on September 19, 2016 [27 favorites]

A black woman I supervise says that her church is strongly hinting to the congregation that Trump needs to be defeated, and is giving out voter information.

Much as I want Trump to be defeated, I hope that's not common. For one thing, it's illegal for churches to endorse candidates. Further, this separation of pulpit and politics is something that I, personally, find very important and really want to see enforced (though unfortunately enforcement is really patchy). Not least because far more often that religious support goes to conservative candidates.

Issues are fair game, though! It's pretty easy to damn Trump on his issues without telling a congregation not to vote for him.
posted by gurple at 7:36 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

The Skittles are a reference to white supremacist meme. Changed from M&Ms to Skittles because of George Zimmerman.

And Joe Walsh wants credit for Trump Jr. stealing his racist tweet
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:38 PM on September 19, 2016 [15 favorites]

These fuckers can't cross the street without referencing a white supremacist meme, can they?
posted by Artw at 7:41 PM on September 19, 2016 [32 favorites]

Do you know how difficult it is to cross the street without suddenly breaking into a goose-step? Have you ever even tried?
posted by um at 7:44 PM on September 19, 2016 [17 favorites]

Donald on Charlie Rose, 1992.

"Donald Trump: The paranoia maybe created some of the money but it's not necessarily (crosstalk ).

Charlie Rose: -- or the drive that creates both.

Donald Trump: One of the problems with politics and politicians is that you really can't have done very much wrong. That means you can't have done very much because if you're doing a lot -- Hey, I do a lot of things. Most of them turn out good but some of them have to turn out bad. They'll hit you with a little bad. It makes it a little bit more difficult."

I love this part.

Charlie Rose: "Who sold it to you? Was it the (inaudible )?

Donald Trump: No, it was a consortium of people.

Charlie Rose: But the (inaudible ) were involved."
posted by clavdivs at 7:45 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Look, I know I'm not the target audience because I am 100% voting for Sec. Clinton here in PA, but can I just say that the latest email campaign building on the theme of President Obama considering it a "personal insult" if Sec. Clinton doesn't win?

Like, I support President Obama, and Sec. Clinton. I'm a lifelong Democrat. But something about this rubs me the wrong way: "I’ll see it as a personal insult to my legacy and the work we’ve done together if we fail to step up and make sure that Hillary takes my place in January."

I dunno why it does, but it does. Ah well. My vote's a lock - if this gets more votes over to Sec. Clinton, then great.
posted by lazaruslong at 7:47 PM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

Do you know how difficult it is to cross the street without suddenly breaking into a goose-step? Have you ever even tried?

You have lift your legs high when you are trying to stay on the white part of the crossing!
posted by Artw at 7:48 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

It makes sense to me considering the person who is following has said they will make it their mission to undo Obama's presidency.
posted by asteria at 7:48 PM on September 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

Donald Trump: One of the problems with politics and politicians is that you really can't have done very much wrong.
If you're Democrat. If you're a Republican, the more you've done wrong the better; that's how the biggest crook ever to run for President got the nomination... by getting worse.

President Obama considering it a "personal insult" if Sec. Clinton doesn't win?
From the New Yorker "Trump's first term" article: Trump aides are organizing what one Republican close to the campaign calls the First Day Project. “Trump spends several hours signing papers—and erases the Obama Presidency,” he said.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:53 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump on profiling: "...everybody’s supposed to be treated equally. Well, it doesn’t work that way. It’s radical Islamic terrorism."

IT'S WRITTEN IN THE CONSITUTION YOU HUMAN FUCKING CHEETO.
posted by Talez at 7:59 PM on September 19, 2016 [34 favorites]

Holy shit I just can't anymore... This one is going to break me.
posted by Talez at 7:59 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

This is just a quick, for what it's worth a personal anecdote to rebut Jacqueline who complained about the Democratic party's perceived lack of organization and enthusiasm in Virginia way upthread (while stumping for Gary Johnson?).

First, I call bullshit. "Hillary's not doing enough in my neck of the woods," is the same concern troll non-story that's getting covered over and over in the absence of a new email "scandal". She's not doing enough for Latino voters, she's not doing enough for millennials, she's not doing enough for Muslims. She's not doing enough because she is a she! News flash, Hillary Clinton has a professional campaign run by very smart people who are all trying to win. Her staff have read the dance card and know the fiddler's playlist and they're ready for this campaign. Just because she's a woman should not make her more susceptible to second-guessing, "concerns", and "shadows of doubt" stories about her campaign strategy. If you want to talk about someone who doesn't know how to run a political campaign, look to her opponent, there's plenty to talk about there.

Second, we've seen right here on metafilter that, in Jacqueline's words, "Democrats aren't even *trying* to compete in the part [of Virginia] I live in" is untrue. I don't know her and can't speak for her, but I'll link to some comments from dogheart, who is also in rural Va within an hour from Jacqueline. dogheart went from complete despair to finding the Clinton ground game and is now working full time for the Clinton campaign. If you can't find a way to get involved, it's not the Clinton campaign's fault. And dogheart, go get 'em tiger!

Finally, my own experience, after volunteering for two weeks with the Clinton campaign, I'm all in with the LuAnn Bennett for Virginia's 10th congressional district. I spent my whole weekend phone banking and canvassing and registering voters. I'm committed to twice after work this week, then all next weekend. This race is a big deal, it's one of the few competitive congressional races and is an area that Clinton should be soaking up enough votes to carry Virginia's electoral votes. So there's a lot of organization and enthusiasm, cooperation and sharing of resources between HFA, the Virginia Democratic Party, and the Bennett campaign. I know it's apples and oranges from Jacqueline's neighborhood, but I've been impressed over and over again how the campaign is smart and disciplined in reaching and registering likely voters.

Finally finally, if you're thinking of volunteering or donating, just do it. If you want to know where your effort is best spent, just ask, there's bunch of people in here that can steer you right. Yes, phone banking is weird and scary at first, canvassing is weird and scary at first, but you get over it really quick and it's pretty fun. Get off the bench, get into the game.
posted by peeedro at 7:59 PM on September 19, 2016 [57 favorites]

I do feel like the "personal insult" line worked better in the speech than in the email. I loved it in the speech though!
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 7:59 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

man I fuckin love reading these long threads backwards. Then I have like ten minutes of skittles????? Passionate defense of Pepe???? A list of things that sound like horrible titles of books?? And then ooooh that Skittles tweet okay FUCK and then oh they were riffing on those debate topics and those are actual debate topics FUCK.

I mean that whole what the flying fuck are y'all talking about now is sort of an easier on-ramp to the awfulness because I'd been thinking, Jr. went on late night tv and declared his love of M and Ms? No, Skittles, okay. Well that's not too bad. And then BOOM here's the awful tweet.

Easier to bear, reading the threads backwards, somehow, sometimes, is what I'm on about.
posted by angrycat at 8:00 PM on September 19, 2016 [22 favorites]

So, just to make sure I understand your method of reading these threads, angrycat... am I to assume you begin when you're very drunk?

Because, hey, that's a nifty twist.
posted by rokusan at 8:04 PM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

drunk with exhaustion and all "okay, is it still really fucking bad?" And hoping the answer in the last twenty posts is that this has all been a dream foisted upon us in some alien simulacrum and pretty soon we're going to meet those same aliens who tell us that they have tested us, we passed by not voting a white nationalist into office, and WELCOME TO THE GALACTIC EMPIRE

I really want to meet aliens.
posted by angrycat at 8:09 PM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

Easier to bear, reading the threads backwards, somehow, sometimes, is what I'm on about.

Good advice. In fact, I'm thinking of going one step further and reading them backwards after the election is over.
posted by nubs at 8:09 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Metafilter: begin when you're very drunk
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:14 PM on September 19, 2016 [10 favorites]

FL Officials Trying to Keep McMullin Off Presidential Ballot, Reversing Earlier Interpretation of FL Ballot Access Law
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:14 PM on September 19, 2016

The hypothetical Election Day thread has the potential to be the darkest one ever.

I imagine it would suffice to have a single period, followed by the thread being immediately closed. Maybe turn the background black for good measure.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:22 PM on September 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

My kids are starting to talk about the election in school and they asked us about it today. We said we were both very excited to be voting for Hillary Clinton, "because she has a lot of ideas to help families with little kids, like ours." (I was also pretty legit excited to realize that our presidential, Senate (Duckworth), and House (Bustos) candidates are all women and are all probably going to win. I have never had that happen before!) They asked who Clinton's opponent was and we said, "Donald Trump -- he's not a very good guy." And my FIVE YEAR OLD was like, "I have heard that guy's name!" And I was like FUUUUUUUU universe for making my 5-year-old cognizant of Trump but not Clinton. (And I can't imagine that where we live he has any classmates whose parents are Trump voters.)

"canvassing is weird and scary at first, but you get over it really quick and it's pretty fun. "

Canvassing is fun, but take a golf ball to knock on people's doors. Otherwise this will happen to you. Bruised knuckles for democracy!

I have canvassed solo a LOT, in some very shady neighborhoods, and I only thought I was about to get murdered twice, both times at houses with very aggressive dogs. Mostly people are either polite, or indifferent, or excited you are forwarding the cause of democracy even though you're not their party. (Plus if you canvass every weekend from late August to early November you will lose 20 pounds easy, very good for your health.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:24 PM on September 19, 2016 [33 favorites]

George H. W. Bush is voting for Clinton, although he won't come out and admit it in public.
posted by mmoncur at 8:32 PM on September 19, 2016 [23 favorites]

Eyebrows- That bruise is crazy! Battle wounds for Hillary!
posted by Sophie1 at 8:33 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Canvassing is fun, but take a golf ball to knock on people's doors.

What if you hit the ball wrong and it goes through a window? The campaign pays for that, right?
posted by um at 8:34 PM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

Let's see how Fallon handles Hillary after the Trump backlash
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:40 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Bruised knuckles for democracy!

(in case the direct link doesn't work, it's the cover to “Captain America Comics” #1
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:44 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Golf ball sounds hollow and weak on a screen door...

Perfect
posted by clavdivs at 8:45 PM on September 19, 2016

Was thinking that I wish I could go back to that hopeful feeling I had at the end of the DNC, so I went looking through some videos.

How about some positivity? Pretty sure these recent ones haven't been linked here yet:

- Aleatha Williams, a young woman from the Bronx (via)

- Ruline Steininger, 103 years old from Pleasant Hill, Iowa (via) (the timeline of "first women" in this was pretty neat; for instance I hadn't known that women could enlist in the US military before they could vote)

take a golf ball to knock on people's doors. Otherwise this will happen to you.

Eyebrows, I thank you and all of the ground game volunteers and I hope those knuckles are enjoying some ice tonight!
posted by rangefinder 1.4 at 8:48 PM on September 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

What's wrong with the "personal insult" email is a matter of grammar:

I’ll see it as a personal insult to my legacy and the work we’ve done together if we fail to step up and make sure that Hillary takes my place in January.

That should be, if we fail to step up to make sure that...

It's the "try and vs try to" grammar debate - and yes, informally, "try and" works fine. In written communication, especially one that's doing to be as over-analyzed as political emails, the distinction becomes important.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:50 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Clipboards are a must. Carry two and you can use them as snowshoes.
posted by clavdivs at 8:50 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

I can't think of the combination of politics and golf ball without: "Now watch this drive..."
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:51 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

I see it as two separate verbal phrases joined by a conjunction. "if we fail to step up" and "if we fail to make sure". Maybe not the world's most elegant writing, but not incorrect per se.
posted by Sara C. at 8:52 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Perhaps members of the alt-right is doing this to court the valuable 4chan vote

You got this the wrong way around - 4channers got attracted to the alt-right via their garbage pile of politics board, and brought their old memes with them everywhere they spread
posted by ymgve at 8:55 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

You want to know how much this crappy election campaign has ruined? We have (at least through the Eastern US Time Zone) completely missed Talk Like A Pirate Day.

I remain hopeful that part of the aftermath of this historical disaster is NOT going to be Talk Like Donald Trump Day.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:01 PM on September 19, 2016 [9 favorites]

Trump on profiling: "...everybody’s supposed to be treated equally. Well, it doesn’t work that way. It’s radical Islamic terrorism."

The constitution is for losers.
posted by mazola at 9:08 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

YAR! YUGE YAR!
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:08 PM on September 19, 2016

Let's see how Fallon handles Hillary after the Trump backlash

I'm sure he's gotten the message that he'd better ask presidential candidates some challenging questions and press them on things.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:10 PM on September 19, 2016 [22 favorites]

Meh. There's always Talk Like A Pirate Month, which is any month with an ARRR in it.

(And also the rest of the year in Southwest England and parts of Newfoundland.)
posted by Sys Rq at 9:10 PM on September 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Let's see how Fallon handles Hillary after the Trump backlash

I'm sure he's gotten the message that he'd better ask presidential candidates some challenging questions and press them on things.

I hope not, I think? It would be another instance of Trump being graded on a curve. Too late to fix it though, really.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:20 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm sure he's gotten the message that he'd better ask presidential candidates some challenging questions and press them on things.

Fallon to Trump: "Ooooooo your hairwig is so dreamy! Oh I can touch it? SQUEEEEEEEE!!!"

Fallon to Clinton: "Why do your emails not disqualify you?"
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:27 PM on September 19, 2016 [29 favorites]

One Bush official who has taken Trump's side is former Vice President Dan Quayle, who told POLITICO in an interview this summer he was still holding out hope both Bushes would back Trump. "Clearly in their heart of hearts I should hope they would want a Republican president, but they can speak for themselves," Quayle said in an interview in June.

That's great Dan, but there's no Republican running, so what can you do?

I seriously love the example of all the Republicans who have come out for Clinton. Supporting someone who isn't from your party, who you certainly don't agree with even close to 100%, but you know is the best person for the job. And the others who won't support her even though they know Trump is a disaster clown, they'll be tainted by that decision. Hey, wasn't there some discussion like that here before?
posted by bongo_x at 9:34 PM on September 19, 2016 [9 favorites]

That was the entire point of the "interview", it was a staged humanizing moment. Kellyanne Conway is not stupid, she's seen Bill Clinton play the saxophone. And Fallon fluffed him up exactly as commanded.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:38 PM on September 19, 2016 [16 favorites]

I actually think that the hair thing was a negative for Trump. He's all about dominance, he considers his hair part of his "manhood", and there's literally a video of him proudly dominating a professional wrestler by shaving off his hair.

So little Jimmy Kimmel basically showed dominance over Trump in the weird Chimpanzee world he lives in. I'm kind of surprised that Trump didn't rant on Twitter about how horrible Kimmel is yet. If this was Conway's idea like you say, that would explain his silence. But I still think it makes Trump look bad to the chimps who support him.

(I still think Kimmel is reprehensible for even allowing Trump on the show though.)
posted by mmoncur at 9:40 PM on September 19, 2016

You mean Fallon?
posted by ocherdraco at 9:42 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

> That should be, if we fail to step up to make sure that...

It's the "try and vs try to" grammar debate - and yes, informally, "try and" works fine.

If I say "I went to the store and bought some beer", that implies completion. I both went there and purchased the beer. If I say "I went the store to buy some beer", that's a statement about my intent. It's likely to followed by a "but" of some kind. For instance, "I went to the store to buy some beer. On the way there, I ran into my friend Sally, and we got to talking, and ..." (This is true in my dialect of English at any rate.)

"Step up and make sure" sounds natural to me. We need to step up and make sure Hillary Clinton gets elected.

(Yes, I'm on MeteFilter, and I'm pedantic descriptivist. And this is a derail.)
posted by nangar at 9:42 PM on September 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

That's Jimmy Fallon. Kimmel was the guy who let Hillary on his show to open a jar of pickles.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:42 PM on September 19, 2016 [16 favorites]

Jimmy Fallon, not Kimmel. Kimmel has self respect.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:43 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

I still blame Kimmel. NEVER FORGET!
posted by mazola at 9:44 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

And it was Vince McMahon (the money behind the Trump Foundation) who got his head shaved by Trump in that particular bit of kayfabe.
posted by holgate at 9:46 PM on September 19, 2016

And where is the Non-Jimmy host, Stephen Colbert, during this brouhaha?
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:46 PM on September 19, 2016

Seth Meyers really laying into Trump
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:48 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

Never forget what, the jar of pickles?

This election is confusing
posted by seyirci at 9:50 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

where is the Non-Jimmy host, Stephen Colbert, during this brouhaha?

Will this do?
posted by holgate at 9:50 PM on September 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trump sightings in Cleveland Heights

Trump and Hannity to hold "town hall" in African-American Church in Cleveland Heights

Donald Trump is scheduled to film a "town hall" style event on Wednesday with Fox News personality Sean Hannity at the Cleveland Heights church of a local pastor who has been a visible Trump supporter.

The website for the New Spirit Revival Center in Cleveland Heights, 3130 Mayfield Road, advertises a "Midwest Values and Vision Pastors Leadership Conference" with Trump, hosted by the church's pastor, Rev. Darrell Scott, that will begin at 9 a.m. on Sept. 21. . . . Trump "will meet with a large statewide group of pastors . . ."

A Fox News spokeswoman said the meeting will air on Hannity's 10 p.m. show on Wednesday night. . . . [it] will be closed to other media . . . Officials with the Trump campaign declined to share additional details about the event.

Scott, who founded the New Spirit Revival Center in 1994, serves as the CEO of the National Diversity Coalition for Trump . . . Scott spoke on Trump's behalf at the Republican National Convention here in July . . .

[But Scott] had not been a prominent figure within the local community of politically involved black clergy before his association with Trump raised his profile.

Rev. Jawanza Colvin, a prominent Cleveland minister whose Olivet Institutional Baptist Church hosted Democrats Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders in separate public forums last March . . . said even if he were invited, he would not go, and he criticized Trump for his "divisive" campaign.

"I will be interested to know who attends. At this point, I think he [Trump] has made himself very clear about where is, what he stands for and whom he'll be standing with," Colvin said.

Trump last appeared in Cleveland on Sept. 8, when he gave a policy speech promoting an expansion of "school choice" at a charter school in a predominantly African-American neighborhood. The appearance was part of an ongoing effort by Trump to try to salvage his image with minority voters. . . .

Some have argued that Trump's minority-outreach efforts are really meant to assure white voters who have been turned off by racially divisive statements Trump has made during his campaign. . . .

Cleveland Heights' Nude Trump Statue -- Free at Last

Naked Donald Trump is finally free -- free at least from impound, where the statue was placed by the Cleveland Heights Police Department after it made a brief appearance in front of a bank on Coventry in Cleveland Heights.

Naked Trump statues appeared in five cities across the country: Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York and Cleveland, which was chosen at the request of the artist who created the nude Trumps, a local artist named Joshua Monroe who goes by the name "Ginger." A group called INDECLINE was responsible for the creation and distribution of the statues.

Naked Trump wasn't on display for long in Cleveland. The Cleveland Heights police whisked him away and placed him in the police evidence room before the glue could completely dry under his feet.

Steve Presser of Big Fun, a novelty toy store in Cleveland Heights . . . posted one of the few photos of Naked Trump in Cleveland before the statue was picked up by the Cleveland Heights police.

On Friday, Presser posted another photo of himself posing with Naked Trump and Ginger. Ginger had just paid the impound fee to free his statue from the CHPD evidence room. CHPD had considered filing charges against those responsible for the statue of the naked presidential candidate but decided against it.

The newly emancipated Naked Trump will be auctioned off to benefit public art in Coventry Village and Cleveland Heights.

Cleveland Heights is the dark blue center of the bluest part of the bluest corner of the state. It's in the Ohio 11th, the bluest and blackest congressional district in Ohio, represented by Marcia Fudge.

I can't imagine this event is going to go well. The venue will suit Trump, though. It's YUUUUGE and gaudily ornate.

But it was built in the 1920s as a synagogue for CH's then growing and prospering jewish community, right across the road from the HQ of Rockefeller's Forest Hills development. I've rented parts of it when it was "the Civic" conference center. But Wednesday night, I'll be taking an alternate route home.
 
posted by Herodios at 9:51 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

We're gonna feel pretty dumb if our weird obsession with State Department email practices leads to ethnic cleansing.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:57 PM on September 19, 2016 [28 favorites]

Jimmy Fallon, not Kimmel. Kimmel has self respect.

My apologies for the error. I apparently, in my head, think they're the same person.

Also I'm old. When is Letterman on?
posted by mmoncur at 9:59 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

Also I'm old. When is Letterman on?

soon?
posted by mazola at 10:04 PM on September 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

Just finished listening to the latest "Keeping it 1600" podcast. Excellent conversation, as always, but... man. This week's guest segment was Jake Tapper of CNN. At the end he was asked what debate questions he would like to ask the two candidates. For Clinton, he said, "I'd like her to give an honest answer about why she set up a private email server."

My forehead is now bruised from banging it on my coffee table.

His justification was that there are legitimate suspicions that it was done to evade FOIA requests. On the one hand, I think it is legitimate to hold our public servants up for scrutiny about this sort of thing, because at least some degree of transparency is needed in government (although I disagree with Assange about just what that degree is). On the other hand, a) she has been answering this and related questions for months, and regardless of whether or not she's been truthful, at this point it's highly unlikely she'll offer any new insight into this situation, and b) worse, it sounds as though the only answer he'd be satisfied with is the one he suspects, which may well be the one the media at large wants to hear. If no other explanation is deemed worthy by our press, that's... problematic.
posted by Superplin at 10:09 PM on September 19, 2016 [18 favorites]

Jake Tapper is a dimwit. It's like the fox and the hedgehog, except in this version the hedgehog knows only one stupid thing.
posted by holgate at 10:22 PM on September 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

"Skittles are candy. Refugees are people. We don't feel it's an appropriate analogy. We will respectfully refrain from further commentary as anything we say could be misinterpreted as marketing."
posted by maudlin at 10:38 PM on September 19, 2016 [97 favorites]

That's a pretty darn good answer I think. Basically as close to "WTF man?" as they can get, doesn't play into the hate one bit, and isn't crass. The people responsible for marketing Skittles have far more tact and competence than anyone on Trump's campaign.
posted by zachlipton at 10:42 PM on September 19, 2016 [40 favorites]

The people responsible for marketing Skittles have far more tact and competence than anyone on Trump's campaign.

And far more humanity.
posted by vac2003 at 10:52 PM on September 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

I fucking hate Skittles but I'm buying a bag on the way to work tomorrow after reading that.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:04 PM on September 19, 2016 [10 favorites]

Well, it's the same manufacturer as M&Ms, so I'm going to buy a bag of M&Ms MEGA (3X the size, so I pop one at a time instead of a handful and convince myself I'm doing portion control).
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:09 PM on September 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

PLEASE don't tell me M&Ms MEGA are "Yuge!" It'll just ruin them for me.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:10 PM on September 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Cubs Owner Now Backs Trump.

The curse will continue...
posted by cell divide at 11:23 PM on September 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

If only we had some sort of government regulation to make sure there aren't any Skittles that could kill you.
posted by one_bean at 11:24 PM on September 19, 2016 [47 favorites]

I'm legitimately impressed by that response from that Skittles VP and I'll never feel bad about buying a bag again.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:30 PM on September 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

It's in the Ohio 11th, the bluest and blackest congressional district.

They should try golf balls.
posted by rokusan at 12:54 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

This thread is scaring me. I just woke up from a terrible nightmare. Maybe not so good an idea to return to the thread then, but nice to know that HW is voting for Hillary. I'll meditate on that for a while, and take a walk.
posted by mumimor at 1:03 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

The nightmare does not end until November 9th. Or possibly ever.
posted by Justinian at 1:10 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Have I Got News For You is back on October 7th though, so at least there's that!
posted by clorox at 1:15 AM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Born To Run The Numbers (.com): Why Hillary Will Win

Relax. Don't stop working, and forgoodnessake, don't forget to vote, but relax.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:51 AM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

gurple:

Much as I want Trump to be defeated, I hope that's not common. For one thing, it's illegal for churches to endorse candidates. Further, this separation of pulpit and politics is something that I, personally, find very important and really want to see enforced (though unfortunately enforcement is really patchy). Not least because far more often that religious support goes to conservative candidates.

Issues are fair game, though! It's pretty easy to damn Trump on his issues without telling a congregation not to vote for him.

I'm aware that churches can't do electioneering. That's not what I said. They're strongly hinting i.e. not saying his name, likely focusing on issues They know the rules. And I hope they're all doing it.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 3:01 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Random thought: You know how Foo Fighters had that one music video that was a parody of a Mentos ad, and for years afterward, people hucked packs of Mentos at them? Just a random memory that made me smile just now for no particular reason.

*buys Skittles stock*
posted by Sys Rq at 3:18 AM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Aw, dammit, Mars is a private company. So much for market speculation!
posted by Sys Rq at 3:21 AM on September 20, 2016

An extremely conservative private company.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 3:53 AM on September 20, 2016

One Bush official who has taken Trump's side is former Vice President Dan Quayle

One thing they have in common is their love for Bobby Knight.

Trump: "I have to thank Bobby Knight. Bobby Knight was incredible."

Quayle: "Bobby Knight told me this: 'There is nothing that a good defense cannot beat a better offense.' In other words, a good offense wins."
posted by peeedro at 3:57 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Just take a short position on that horrible crispy kale stuff.
posted by spitbull at 3:59 AM on September 20, 2016

T.D. Strange: "Jimmy Fallon, not Kimmel. Kimmel has self respect."

Huh, I've just realized that I was mixing the two of them up in my head. I've never actually seen either show, just clips posted here and Facebook and had somehow merged them in my brain.
posted by octothorpe at 4:10 AM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Re Skittles, a personal tale.: "After the Cambodian genocide began. My mom started taping pictures and headlines to our dining room wall. Mrs Pauls fish sticks and pictures of the Killing Fields, is how I remember those meals. “We have to do something,” she said. I was ~9. She started sponsoring refugees. We were clueless white people. There was no real preexisting Cambodian community in DCmetro. Our first sponsor’s husband and baby had been killed. She lived with us for two years, no one to talk to in her own language. Many followed. Horrible stories. One toddler had a crease across his nose from a bullet. Mass graves. Rapes.

They’d endured unspeakable trauma. They came to a country where even the open-hearted were often blinkered and/or powerless. That trauma took its toll on all of them, some in more obvious ways. And it took its toll on my family too. Scars to us persist. But we were better for what they showed us about the capacity for healing. And they mostly did fine to outstanding. Donald Trump Jr, never has known hardship. Nor charity. There’s utterly no evidence his family has ever done good by anyone. This country has had many ugly chapters. But the Trumps would be a self-inflicted blow to the ideals of America in every way. And if you're a person of faith or conviction of ANY kind, you must look deep and ask: Do they represent what we should aspire to be?"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:53 AM on September 20, 2016 [58 favorites]

Clinton Expands Lead Over Trump In New National Tracking Poll

She's up among likely voters 50-45 in the new NBC News-Survey Monkey poll.

This is the first of this poll to separate likely voters from registered.

Last week among registered she was up 48-44. This week among RVs she's up 49-43.

Poll was taken 9/12-18, so post health scare.
posted by chris24 at 4:55 AM on September 20, 2016 [29 favorites]

According to Morning Joe, the skittles image was campaign created? If that's the case, I think I've reached peak disgust.
posted by xyzzy at 4:59 AM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Here's Fortune's Survey on How Americans Viewed Jewish Refugees in 1938

the fascinating figure in the replies is the large percentage of people who, although they were specifically invited to vent indignation, which is easy to do without great intellectual effort, simply denied all interest. It is our statesmen and columnists, and not the man on the street, who do most of the moralizing at which Europeans wonder. The average American may be a pretty calloused cynic after all. So then, cynics though we may be, are we, with our pennies for the orphans of war, humanitarians just the same? Are we humanitarians to the point of giving asylum to the oppressed in the old U.S. tradition that prevailed before the present immigration laws?[...]So much, then, for the hospitality of our melting pot.

posted by zombieflanders at 5:04 AM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

According to Morning Joe, the skittles image was campaign created? If that's the case, I think I've reached peak disgust.

Come on, I'm sure you'll find a new peak.
posted by zutalors! at 5:27 AM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

All the reasons that it's bizarre for former Sanders voters to support Gary Johnson. Starting with:

*He supports TPP.

*He supports fracking.

*He opposes any federal policies that would make college more affordable or reduce student debt. In fact, he wants to abolish student loans entirely.

*He thinks Citizens United is great.

And taking it from there.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:31 AM on September 20, 2016 [15 favorites]

Yes but he's for marijuana legalisation so....
posted by PenDevil at 5:38 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

I saw a Gary Johnson sticker in the wild this morning while I was getting some coffee. Next to the Gary Johnson sticker was a sticker of a pot leaf. So, yeah. I guess Hillary's intention to reschedule marijuana and let the states continue to fool around with recreational pot wasn't enough for the millennial in the car in front of me.
posted by xyzzy at 5:39 AM on September 20, 2016

George H.W. Bush to vote for Hillary
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:39 AM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Gaming the Six-Week Election Day Early voting has transformed political campaigning. Here’s how it may play out in Iowa, Nevada, and North Carolina.

In North Carolina, about half of this year’s likely electorate is past early voters, but they are unevenly distributed by both race and partisanship. Two-thirds of the Democratic base has taken advantage of the state’s generous early-voting rules, while only 57 percent of Republican base voters have. Given that Democrats have a large enough coalition to push her well beyond the win number—more than half of Clinton’s GOTV targets are African-American—Clinton’s campaign is likely to try to mobilize as many of them as early as possible. If polls continue to show her relatively strong here, Clinton could know well before Election Day that she has banked enough votes to win, and shift her late spending to other states where she has still has to win over persuadables.

There is a Republican path to victory here almost exclusively through mobilization, but Trump’s apparent neglect of a ground organization—at the end of August he had just one field office in the state—suggests he is not trying to win that way. Instead, he will hope that the state party, which has both an incumbent governor and senator on the ballot, turns out some of those GOTV targets. But if only half of them end up voting, Trump will find there are not enough persuadables to reach his win number. He will have to penetrate the Democratic base, the same kinds of voters he’s aiming for in states like Nevada and Pennsylvania. Two thirds of the Democratic faithful in North Carolina votes before Election Day, which means that Trump has no time time to waste.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:48 AM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

George H.W. Bush to vote for Hillary

The Drudge Report headline for this story is Hillary's Bush.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:51 AM on September 20, 2016

The Drudge Report headline for this story is Hillary's Bush.

The right wing isn't sexist at all. Not here. No sir.
posted by Talez at 5:53 AM on September 20, 2016 [36 favorites]

Swag update: I got my tshirt and lawn sign on Saturday. I ordered them after the convention. I still haven't gotten the car magnet I was promised after making my my first donation.
posted by Biblio at 5:54 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ok, so late to the party, but I don't think this has been mentioned in this thread or the previous one. Not sure if I missed it or because it came as no surprise to anyone:

Trump doctor paid $86,000 to settle malpractice lawsuit after patient's death

Harold Bornstein, who gave a glowing report on the candidate’s health, was accused of ‘negligent and reckless’ prescribing of morphine and barbiturates

posted by moody cow at 5:55 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

"Joe Scarborough, Donald Trump look to repair relations"

So I guess Trump's dominance hierarchy philosophy is working out pretty well for him. At this point, the press are just pigs to the slaughter.
posted by klarck at 5:55 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump Campaign Vows to Fund Florida Push, Official Says, but Cash Is in Limbo

The campaign of Donald J. Trump, whose grass-roots organizing in Florida is far behind that of conventional presidential nominees, promised $1.9 million for a ground game in the state but has yet to come through with the money, less than five weeks before early voting begins.

Warning that there is “no time to waste,” Susan Wiles, Mr. Trump’s Florida state director, wrote in an internal email on Sunday that the campaign’s New York leaders gave a “green light” to begin spending a seven-figure sum for a field program to get out the vote. On Monday, Ms. Wiles said the money was being delayed.

The best part about this story:

Ms. Wiles meant to send the email to Matt Parker, who is coordinating the Trump campaign’s field work in Florida. She typed the wrong address, and it went to someone with no connection to the campaign. The recipient forwarded the email to The New York Times.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:55 AM on September 20, 2016 [60 favorites]

I guess Hillary's intention to reschedule marijuana and let the states continue to fool around with recreational pot wasn't enough for the millennial in the car in front of me.

Damned snake people. When Hillary loses, it's gonna be all their fault!
posted by indubitable at 5:58 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

The recipient forwarded the email to The New York Times.

At last, a hero emerges!
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:58 AM on September 20, 2016 [22 favorites]

where is the Non-Jimmy host, Stephen Colbert, during this brouhaha?

Last night he straight up called Trump a lying LIAR.

And Sam Bee was on fire, too.
posted by zakur at 5:59 AM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

I saw a Gary Johnson sticker in the wild this morning while I was getting some coffee

We have a Right Wing Christian family down at the corner. They take their signs seriously. For example, last election they kept their "Another Family for Romney/Ryan" sign up for a year after Obama won. Predictably they had a Carson sign up in early spring but that came down and there was nothing....for months. Last week they put up a Johnson sign. I was not expecting that.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:59 AM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Faith groups get around not being able to endorse candidates by preparing fact sheets that spell out which candidate "supports their issues". Sample received by Rev. Stynxno.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:09 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

The lines at the pump are providing a nice 70's dystopian vibe to this entire trainwreck, where I live. Any word on if Hilary plans to confiscate my gas?
posted by thelonius at 6:19 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

The thing that gets me about that Skittles ad is that it's worded SO BADLY. I've seen the earlier M&M one and that one made grammatical sense (while of course being morally repugnant.) If you say "three of them are poisoned" that makes sense. But "three will kill you"? Do you mean ANY three? Like if I eat three or more I'll die? Or is three specific ones?
posted by threeturtles at 6:30 AM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

Faith groups get around not being able to endorse candidates by preparing fact sheets that spell out which candidate "supports their issues". Sample received by Rev. Stynxno.

There's also the fact that the IRS has utterly abandoned enforcement. It's a law only on paper now.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:31 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Our Immigrants, Our Strength (NYT): As the mayors of three great global cities — New York, Paris and London — we urge the world leaders assembling at the United Nations to take decisive action to provide relief and safe haven to refugees fleeing conflict and migrants fleeing economic hardship, and to support those who are already doing this work.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:38 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

@BCAppelbaum: Pause to reflect on the fact that [DJT Jr's anti-Syrian immigrant tweet] was sent from an iPhone, which was created by the son of a Syrian immigrant.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:40 AM on September 20, 2016 [54 favorites]

Hillary's going for the geek vote here in Pittsburgh: Sean Astin is doing campaigning at a comic book store and at Carnegie Mellon on Friday.
posted by octothorpe at 6:51 AM on September 20, 2016 [13 favorites]

I saw a Gary Johnson sticker in the wild this morning while I was getting some coffee. Next to the Gary Johnson sticker was a sticker of a pot leaf. So, yeah. I guess Hillary's intention to reschedule marijuana and let the states continue to fool around with recreational pot wasn't enough for the millennial in the car in front of me.

Pretty much every recreational marijuana user I've known in my extended social circle since college has at least flirted with big-L Libertarianism due solely to the party's stance on legalization. I'm glad that decriminalization/legalization is finally getting some traction in real-world mainstream politics, just so I don't have to talk my dumb stoner friends out of voting for whoever this year's incarnation of Lyndon LaRouche is.
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:56 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Every incarnation of the office libertarian bore I've run into, and I seem to have the bad luck of running into a lot of them, has been big on pot.
posted by Artw at 7:01 AM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hillary's going for the geek vote here in Pittsburgh: Sean Astin is doing campaigning at a comic book store and at Carnegie Mellon on Friday.

Ha! A friend of my husband's recently posted a picture of her posing with Aston at a comic book shop in Detroit and I was like wtf is going on here and he said "Sean Astin is apparently stumping for Hillary at... comic shops? Alrighty then." So it's a thing. A hilarious, awesome thing.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:03 AM on September 20, 2016 [16 favorites]

Hamilton's Lin-Manuel Miranda Sings Donald Trump Tweets In a New Musical | GQ
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:03 AM on September 20, 2016 [12 favorites]

The Pay Gap Between Black and White Americans Is Even Bigger Today Than It Was in 1979

"Black men’s average hourly wages went from being 22.2% lower than those of white men in 1979 to being 31.0% lower by 2015. For women, the wage gap went from 6% in 1979 to 19% in 2015.

A week ago, the U.S. Census Bureau found that while overall, Americans wages are increasing, the gulf between the median annual income for a black family and that of a white family is still enormous: On average a black American family’s median income is $36,900, while a white American family’s is $63,000. "

But of course, it's whites turning to fascism because of "economic uncertainty."
posted by chris24 at 7:04 AM on September 20, 2016 [43 favorites]

Also, going back to an earlier discussion on Cosmo and good political coverage, The CUT, which did the article above, is the style and fashion site of New York magazine and has been doing constant and good coverage of the race and issues. Young women care and their news outlets do as well.
posted by chris24 at 7:07 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

This Is The Authoritarian Mindset

Look at this exchange caught by CBS's indefatigable Sopan Deb from the Michael Savage radio show.

SAVAGE: Donald Trump is with us on the Savage Nation. Line 10. Donald Trump, you're the only one who can save us from this insanity. We need you Donald. You've got to become president.

TRUMP: There's no question about it. It's horrible. What's going on is horrible. And Hillary Clinton was there. I mean, she was there. Now she's saying what she's going to do. What can she do? She was there and led to the weakness of our country. And it's disgraceful that she now talks about what she can do. She can do nothing.

Like the Skittles nonsense, it's an embodiment of the Trump campaign: simultaneously hateful ugly and comical stupid. But look at the self-abasement. As President Obama said memorably in his convention speech, We Americans don't look to be ruled. But a lot of high-profile Trump supporters not only hunger to be ruled but their advocacy has incorporated this hunger to be ruled into its very vocabulary. It sounds dramatic to say this. But expression of support has been channeled into an abasement or even abandonment of the self.

posted by tonycpsu at 7:16 AM on September 20, 2016 [38 favorites]

Trump Jr. is tweeting a link to a Breitbart article I'm not going to link saying:

Europe’s Rape Epidemic: Western Women Will Be Sacrificed At The Altar Of Mass Migration
posted by chris24 at 7:23 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

WONT SOMEONE THINK OF THE LILY WHITE PURITY OF OUR LILY WHITE WOMENS???????? THE HORDES ARE COMING TO TAINT THEM AND REDUCE THE VALUE OF YOUR PROPERTY!!!!
posted by ian1977 at 7:24 AM on September 20, 2016 [18 favorites]

Nazi filth.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:25 AM on September 20, 2016 [42 favorites]

Western Women Will Be Sacrificed At The Altar Of Mass Migration

Eucch. Sometimes I really wish MeFi had a Facebook like "angry" reaction. Or better yet, the "Ew" reaction that I am still waiting for on Facebook.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:25 AM on September 20, 2016 [16 favorites]

Hillary's going for the geek vote here in Pittsburgh

As long as she's in Pittsburgh, I hope this guy takes her on a tour of breakfast places.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:26 AM on September 20, 2016

[real] Talking Points Memo: New York Times Editor Vows To Call Out Trump When He Blatantly Lies (September 20)

[fake] New York Times Editor, via Twitter: OMG you guys, did you know that Trump basically lies all the time? (September 22)

[fake] Washington Post: New York Times Editor and 30% of NYT Staff Hospitalized For Exhaustion; Election Coverage Suspended (September 25)
posted by Spathe Cadet at 7:29 AM on September 20, 2016 [24 favorites]

I totally saw Rick Sebak while I was in line to see Hillary at the convention center back in August.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:30 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

WaPo: Trump used $258,000 from his charity to settle legal problems

"Donald Trump spent more than a quarter-million dollars from his charitable foundation to settle lawsuits that involved the billionaire’s for-profit businesses, according to interviews and a review of legal documents."

Just give Farenthold the Pulitzer already.
posted by chris24 at 7:34 AM on September 20, 2016 [92 favorites]

Quartz: New York Times editor on Trump: “We will call out lies”

The Huffington Post branded him a serial liar months ago. Now, the most traditional American media outlets have also abandoned journalistic diplomatese in their coverage of Republican candidate Donald Trump, and are reaching for new ways to flag the word “lie.”

In at least five articles in the New York Times on Sept. 17, including the lead story in the print edition, the words “lie,” “false,” “falsely claimed” and “untrue” appeared in headlines, lead paragraphs, and top sections of the paper’s Trump coverage. The day before, CNN’s Jake Tapper called Trump “the most prominent pusher of the birther lie,” the Associated Press reported that Trump “peddled another lie,” and a Washington Post headline declared, “It’s time for TV news to stop playing the stooge for Donald Trump.”

It’s a marked change in language, even for outlets that have aggressively reported on Trump’s appeals to violence and bigotry. And it’s especially startling coming from the ultra-traditional Times, which even in the new digital age remains a north star for much mainstream media coverage.

The birther lie seems to be the breaking point-- or should I say lies because of Trump's amazing two fer one 1. It was Hillary who started it and 2. Trump finished it years ago. His handlers handled it so badly. All he had to do was apologize and move on but no, he just couldn't do that without making an attempt to paint himself as the hero of our story.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:34 AM on September 20, 2016 [34 favorites]

Clinton is not running much of a ground game in Missouri. I'm sure that the state looks hopelessly red to outsiders, though that befuddles me because Missourians split their votes all the time! We have a Democrat governor that we're likely to replace with another Democrat governor in November; we have one Democrat Senator and the other Senate seat is looking competitive (Jason Kander vs. incumbent Roy Blunt). The issue we have here is that we've been gerrymandered all over the state, and the resulting safe Republican state legislature is managing to do some truly appalling things. It's therefore frustrating to see us written off at the national level. Obama had a field office here in 2008 and in 2012; I volunteered both times. When I lived here in 2000, I was volunteering for Gore. Clinton's closest field office is in St. Louis, 100+ miles away, and there's no field office on the other side of the state in Kansas City. There is literally one event in the next two months within 50 miles of me listed on her site, and it's a group trying to get a float in the Homecoming parade. That's it.

Okay, fine, what about the other races? After putting my name into several "contact me" forms and following social media for several Democrat groups (state, county, etc.) to be alerted to events, I have been contacted by one campaign, the aforementioned Dem governor candidate. For several reasons (he's doing well in the polls, he's running very centrist (i.e., against Obamacare and "Obama's EPA" in his ads), and he's not doing any work for other state-wide Dem races) I have not made time for him so far.

I am a working mom with a toddler and I don't have a lot of money. I cannot organize the events I want to see, but I want to help.
posted by aabbbiee at 7:35 AM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Donald Trump spent more than a quarter-million dollars from his charitable foundation to settle lawsuits that involved the billionaire’s for-profit businesses, according to interviews and a review of legal documents."

Surely this...?
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:38 AM on September 20, 2016 [9 favorites]

Re: Missouri, the last poll I saw had Kander leading Blunt 42 to 40.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 7:39 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

NPR: With Donald Trump's Birther Spin, He's Crossed A Line

NPR's Ron Elving claims that at his Friday press conference, "Donald Trump brought forth what may well be the most preposterous falsehood anyone has attempted to peddle in our political life." He then challenges anyone to name a bigger one.

(No doubt many MeFites could accept that challenge.)

Elving cites Trump's famous capacity for insult, but it seems clear that it's Trump's insult of the national press at Friday's event, rather than the obviousness or outrageousness of this particular lie, that's causing them to regard this articular episode as "crossing a line" and throw the penalty flag at last.
posted by Gelatin at 7:39 AM on September 20, 2016 [22 favorites]

Clinton Yard Sign report: still there! I look out my window every morning with trepidation, but no one has messed with it yet. Our Obama sign didn't last three days but that was a different neighborhood.

(My plan for if it does get stolen: make a homemade version. Took me a month to get this one in the mail. )

The lady two streets over no longer has her sign though, and I'm worried about her. Possibly it was just blown away by the wind, or taken down for yardwork. I feel like I should leave her an encouraging note but it might weird her out.
posted by emjaybee at 7:43 AM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

I worry that the damage has been done. Too little, too late by the press.
posted by Talez at 7:43 AM on September 20, 2016 [11 favorites]

WaPo: Trump used $258,000 from his charity to settle legal problems

This is why he will never release his tax records. He is fond of bending the rules to breaking point and releasing his figures to the close scrutiny of others would never work to his favor. Look at how much dirt the Washington Post has picked up from the few scraps of information they can uncover.

NPR: With Donald Trump's Birther Spin, He's Crossed A Line

Fingers crossed that this is it-- the elusive weapon to stab the heart of Trump's teflon-clad candidacy.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:44 AM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

> Surely this...?
I thought the surely this-supply ran out years before the great evens-shortage.
posted by farlukar at 7:44 AM on September 20, 2016 [40 favorites]

I'll just leave this here, from Fahrenthold's article:

Trump’s club sued in federal court, saying that a smaller flag “would fail to appropriately express the magnitude of Donald J. Trump’s . . . patriotism.”

posted by xyzzy at 7:45 AM on September 20, 2016 [13 favorites]

Trump is up 7-10 in Missouri, about the same as Texas. It's a lost cause and she doesn't need it to win. There's more effective uses for Clinton's resources in Ohio, Florida, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Nevada. Even Georgia is a more realistic "stretch goal" than Missouri.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:48 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

This line from Elving's editorial strikes me as the crux of the media's problem:

The earth did not open, but at least a portion of it did move on Friday. It was the portion where many of us as journalists try to stand. We have lived in the faith that if we report what the candidates say, and do it with accuracy and fairness, our audiences will judge for themselves what is true and what is not.

Missing here is the crucial question of whether the journalist knows what a candidate, or anyone else, says is in fact false. If so, the journalist is knowingly giving the liar an unfair advantage by allowing them to broadcast untruths unchallenged, in the hopes that the "audiences will judge for themselves" what the reporter already knows. (And if not, the reporter's competence should fairly be in question -- I'm looking at you, Matt Lauer.)

Yes, that approach is "balanced," but it is not objective. Trump is hardly the only politician to tell verifiable falsehoods, or even to manipulate the media by enjoying an unearned benefit of the doubt. It's high time the media got out of the defensive crouch it's been in since Spiro Freaking Agnew accused the media, in obvious bad faith, of bias.
posted by Gelatin at 7:49 AM on September 20, 2016 [19 favorites]

The GOP died this weekend

From rightwing conservative columnist Jennifer Rubin. Again, when even she gets it...

"As for the fate of the GOP, the evidence mounts that it cannot go merrily on its way after the election. A party that would sanction people who call out a racist deserves to go out of business. A party whose congressional leaders remain supportive of a nominee who incites violence, perpetuates racism, blatantly, and traffics in conspiracy theories loses the moral authority to govern...

Any who excuse Trump’s involvement in birtherism and defend his current lies should not have a seat at the center-right political party. That still allows reconciliation with those Republicans who felt Trump was “better than Hillary” (patently wrong, but earnestly felt). That still allows embrace of Republicans who meekly put party above country by endorsing Trump... Actively defending, excusing, covering up and minimizing Trump’s birtherism puts Republicans in the exact camp as David Duke, the alt-right and other white supremacists. They should not be welcome in whatever party follows the GOP." (emphasis hers)
posted by chris24 at 7:50 AM on September 20, 2016 [33 favorites]

Regarding politics and the pulpit: I'm an occasional lay preacher at my church. We don't endorse candidates, but our preaching addresses political issues every week. We're in St. Louis, and for about a year every sermon touched on Ferguson (and they still do frequently). We stress Jesus' vision of the kingdom of God as a party to which everyone is invited, especially the poor, the vulnerable, and the outsiders.

My last sermon was on John's vision of the New Jerusalem in Revelation. I spoke about the Gospel as liberation from fear of the Other, the building of walls between nations as hostile to the healing work God is doing in the world, and why God's love of human diversity means we have to learn to love it too. If you don't like pressing 1 for English, I told them, you're going to hate heaven.

This Sunday I'm preaching on the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, a story about a guy who goes to hell for not helping the homeless.
posted by EarBucket at 7:54 AM on September 20, 2016 [57 favorites]

After Trump expressed his hesitations about America’s commitment to NATO, I visited the Arlington, Virginia, office of the RAND Corporation, a nonpartisan research institution. During the Cold War, RAND developed the use of political-military war games—the simulation of real-world scenarios... “A game is a kind of preview of coming attractions,” David Shlapak, the co-director of RAND’s Center for Gaming, told me.

Shlapak said that in the spring of 2014, after Russia seized Crimea, “the question surfaced: What could Russia do to NATO, if it was inclined to?”... to examine what would happen if Russia attacked the three most vulnerable NATO nations—the Baltic states of Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia.

To his surprise, the simulated Russian forces reached the outskirts of the Estonian and Latvian capitals in as little as [36] hours. The larger shock was the depth of destruction. American forces, which would deploy from Germany, Italy, and elsewhere, are not heavily armored. “In twelve hours, more Americans die than in Iraq and Afghanistan, combined, in sixteen years," Shlapak said... "In twelve hours, the U.S. Air Force loses more airplanes than it’s lost in every engagement since Vietnam, combined... In our base case, the Russians bring about four hundred and fifty tanks to the fight, and NATO brings none. So it turns into a fight of steel against flesh.”

...I asked him if he thought that Trump’s suggestion of withholding support from NATO will have any impact beyond the campaign... He said, “Deterrence is inherently psychological. It’s a state of mind that you create in a potential adversary, and it rests on a couple of foundational criteria. One of them is credibility—your adversary’s confidence that if it does the thing that you are prohibiting, the thing you seek to deter, the consequences you are threatening will happen...”

“We’ve had seventy years of great-power peace, which is the longest period in post-Westphalian history,” Shlapak said. “I think one of the reasons we don’t think about that, or don’t understand the value of that, is that it’s been so long since we’ve been face to face with the prospect of that kind of conflict.”

President Trump’s First Term
posted by y2karl at 7:56 AM on September 20, 2016 [27 favorites]

Sean Astin is apparently stumping for Hillary at... comic shops? Alrighty then.

This just makes me smile. I'm picturing him going "How can I help? Oh, I know!" And it's not a bad use of his time, even.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:56 AM on September 20, 2016 [12 favorites]

(One other little aside about Elving's editorial -- he implies that Joseph McCarthy's accusations of Communist subversion of the Army was the bridge too far that prompted the courageous press to see through the Senator's acerbic rhetoric, but let's not forget that it was Army counsel Joseph Welch who actually broke that dam with his famous "At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" speech during the Army-McCarthy hearings.)
posted by Gelatin at 7:57 AM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

The primary problem with the majority of the media is that a huge percentage of what is called journalism is actually infotainment.

Infotainment is basically information given with the intent to entertain and keep eyeballs attached to the screen. For better or worse Trump understands this by instinct in that he always leads with big attention grabbing ledes for his press conferences even if they are categorically false because he knows that most of the cable news networks don't fact check and a lie is just as powerful as the truth in getting out your messaging.

He also provides some sort of drama daily which makes it easy for him to be covered by the cable news.

Clinton by contrast is much more focused on traditional political things but from the standpoint of the cable news networks that's boring so instead we get endless speculation about her emails or her health.
posted by vuron at 8:00 AM on September 20, 2016 [10 favorites]

If hurting their feelings is what it takes, it's what it takes.

Fahrenthold's work is exceptional and dogged, and I think it's demonstrative of TrumpOrg's attitude towards business. If you've ever read Private Eye, you'll know their investigative work into the dealings of "flamboyantly rich" people like Robert Maxwell and Mohamed Fayed, and how they often resemble a glorified corporate form of check-kiting, in which money is sluiced between various shadowy corporate entities where necessary to maintain liquidity even while there's a growing pile of debt.

Trump treated the Foundation (funded with other people's money) as one of those entities, specifically the vehicle for a schtick, a "charity dodge" in his reality show and his business dealings. It took public disclosure rules and a reporter willing to comb through the filings to expose this. Tip o'th'iceberg.

He now has hundreds of millions of dollars of donations from the campaign, and what's he doing? Sluicing it into TrumpOrg coffers. A bit more of the iceberg.
posted by holgate at 8:02 AM on September 20, 2016 [18 favorites]

The problem with this election and "we report, you decide" is that that entire premise is built upon the consumer having enough information to decide. Sam Bee was spot on last week when she pointed out that just "reporting" on the words Donald Trump said regarding international law isn't enough for anyone to decide anything because 99.99999% of your readers/viewers aren't international lawyers. That dude just says whateverthefuck without any regard whatsoever as to whether what he's saying is legal, feasible, or anywhere in the realm of reality. The press should have figured that out a long time ago the difference between that approach and a traditional politician who may try to bend the perception of facts to make their side sound better, but don't generally just make up their own facts by the dozen. Trump dropkicks that part of the social contract right out the window on a daily basis. You can't just keep going la la la we're going to do what we've always done here la la la. He's doing something that no one has done before because everyone just assumed that you couldn't do it. Turns out, apparently you can and the press will just stroke their beards and navelgaze about objectivity.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:03 AM on September 20, 2016 [27 favorites]

The birther lie seems to be the breaking point-- or should I say lies because of Trump's amazing two fer one 1. It was Hillary who started it and 2. Trump finished it years ago

And I honestly don't know if it was the fact that Trump lied so baldly at that moment that pushed the media here, or if it was the moment when the media realized they were being played for chumps by giving him so much air time about his new hotel and fluffy endorsements from whomever for such little substance. Trump pushed too far with his non-event, and the media woke up to the fact that they were being treated like fools.
posted by nubs at 8:09 AM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

If your campaign lives by the media, it'll die by the media. I'm hoping here's where Clinton's traditional campaign takes off and the polls begin their long slow trajectory into landslide territory over the next 50 days.
posted by TwoWordReview at 8:12 AM on September 20, 2016 [11 favorites]

I can't help but feel this is less timed around Birtherism and more related to his LOOK AT MY HOTEL coverage, but whatever the catalyst, I'll take it.
posted by Twain Device at 8:12 AM on September 20, 2016 [26 favorites]

If hurting their feelings is what it takes, it's what it takes.

True, but the idea that our democracy is so imperiled because people in a position to make sure everyone understood what was at stake didn't care about doing their jobs until he hurt their little feelings makes me so angry I have to lie down.
posted by winna at 8:13 AM on September 20, 2016 [30 favorites]

Trump pushed too far with his non-event, and the media woke up to the fact that they were being treated like fools.

It seems obvious that the the insult Trump delivered to the media is at least as strong factor as his actual lies -- again, Elving's all wet if he imagines that accusing Clinton of starting the birther nonsense is Trump's most outrageous lie.

But a Narrative seems to be developing in the media that Trump's a Lying Liar Who Lies. That narrative won't serve Trump well at all going into the debates.
posted by Gelatin at 8:15 AM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

I can't help but feel this is less timed around Birtherism and more related to his LOOK AT MY HOTEL coverage, but whatever the catalyst, I'll take it.

I'm not complaining, just more disturbed/intrigued/whatevered by the fact that it might take an insult to their collective pride and self-image that causes them to actually do their jobs as opposed to a rediscovery of the ideals of journalism as opposed to info-tainment.
posted by nubs at 8:16 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Dear Mrs. Clinton: I don't know if you're reading this or not but please keep "At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" in your pocket to bring out during the debate when appropriate.
posted by DanSachs at 8:18 AM on September 20, 2016 [22 favorites]

It may have been the hotel that was the last straw, but I get the sense that the touring media were reeeeally pissed about being left on the plane while Trump mocked them from the stage.
posted by TwoWordReview at 8:20 AM on September 20, 2016 [17 favorites]

the idea that our democracy is so imperiled because people in a position to make sure everyone understood what was at stake didn't care about doing their jobs until he hurt their little feelings makes me so angry I have to lie down.

It's also incredibly dangerous, as a president who occasionally alternates between disrespecting and flattering the media can fool them into softpedaling their reporting as long as they carefully fall short of actually offending them. (Recall that Stephen Colbert's spot-on criticism of the media at the White House Correspondent's Dinner was widely panned by journalists who were insulted by the fact that Colbert told them to their faces they were failing at their jobs.)

Notably, Elving's editorial cites media coverage that accurately portrayed the costly failures of the Iraqi occupation as an example of the media doing its job, while conspicuously failing to mention the at least lack of skepticism of Administration claims during the runup to the invasion itself.
posted by Gelatin at 8:22 AM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

I won't believe in a "surely this" moment unless I see the media hold steady for at least a few days of Trump tempting them with shiny things.
posted by emjaybee at 8:26 AM on September 20, 2016 [14 favorites]

Why do people who need help from the government hate it so much?

It goes like this:

“You are patiently standing in a long line” for something you call the American dream. You are white, Christian, of modest means, and getting along in years. You are male. There are people of color behind you, and “in principle you wish them well.” But you’ve waited long, worked hard, “and the line is barely moving.”

Then “Look! You see people cutting in line ahead of you!” Who are these interlopers? “Some are black,” others “immigrants, refugees.” They get affirmative action, sympathy and welfare — “checks for the listless and idle.” The government wants you to feel sorry for them.

... As long as larger forces are squeezing whites of modest means, it’s going to “feel as if” people are cutting in line. In Lexuses.

None of Hochschild’s characters appear to have been directly hurt by competition from people of color. Their economic problems lie elsewhere, she argues, in unchecked corporate power and technological transformation. Still there’s no denying that demographic and cultural change have robbed white men of the status they once enjoyed.

So, loss of white privilege. How unsurprisingly quaint.
posted by erisfree at 8:28 AM on September 20, 2016 [14 favorites]

Quartz: New York Times editor on Trump: “We will call out lies”

The Huffington Post branded him a serial liar months ago. Now, the most traditional American media outlets have also abandoned journalistic diplomatese in their coverage of Republican candidate Donald Trump, and are reaching for new ways to flag the word “lie.”

In at least five articles in the New York Times on Sept. 17, including the lead story in the print edition, the words “lie,” “false,” “falsely claimed” and “untrue” appeared in headlines, lead paragraphs, and top sections of the paper’s Trump coverage

Item 1: no one has "abandoned journalistic diplomatese" by refusing to print lies without noting them as lies. NO ONE. Instead, may I suggest people say "[publication] has revoked Trump's 'free pass' to say anything he wants without verification, correction or clarification." In fact, I would consider calling out liars as liars to be the very core of journalism, and you can't be a diplomat if you're bartering with lies.

Secret Life of Gravy: The birther lie seems to be the breaking point

That's a funny thing: the original breaking point was that his "major announcement" was just to shill for his new hotel. Four days ago, USA Toady reported Trump birther event blasted as hotel 'infomercial'.

But a few days later, that aspect has dropped off the radar, instead we get what Gelatin shared: NPR: With Donald Trump's Birther Spin, He's Crossed A Line, which has no mention of the hotel.

Maybe it was really this latest pirouette that pushed media to finally start labeling the lies. Cokie Roberts had a good summary of what was so very wrong with Friday's "announcement":

Exactly right. Because he promised to announce that he would say something on this birther question - goes to his new hotel, gives it a great big fat ad. And has a bunch of veterans talk about him in glowing terms. And that's all played on the cable networks.

And by the way, that Congressional Black Caucus meeting - conference was not. I think CNN played most of it but the others did not.

posted by filthy light thief at 8:29 AM on September 20, 2016 [15 favorites]

Trump is a win at all costs type guy so I'm not sure the rhetorical question concerning his decency is perhaps a lost cause.

I think the reality is that Clinton and Trump are running base+ campaigns and their ability to peel off voters from the other camp are basically zero.

The only aspect I feel is somewhat concerning is what percentage of Johnson's supporters are actually going to pull the lever and what percentage with trickle back to the main 2 parties and in what ratio.

I figure Johnson will get no more than 2-3% in the election and Stein will get 1-2%. Assuming that the bulk of current Stein supporters will vote Democrat I think you could see Clinton's lead expand but I'm unclear what way the Johnson voters will break at the end. Head to head polling generally shows Hillary expanding her lead in two way contests but still having a solid lead in regards to 4-way contest.

Considering that Hillary is currently in a better position that Obama was 4 years I'm not sure if the race will tighten any further baring a major incident with the campaigns or national security.
posted by vuron at 8:30 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah the line metaphor is pretty similar to the ladder metaphor. Reducing the number of rungs can upset the people who used to be 'above' others. 'Ahead' is a pretty thin veil for this.
posted by puddledork at 8:31 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Four days ago, USA Toady...

Accidental I'm assuming but perfect for the media this election.
posted by chris24 at 8:33 AM on September 20, 2016 [18 favorites]

In fact, I would consider calling out liars as liars to be the very core of journalism

In my high school journalism class, way back in the mid 1980s, my teacher, who was a crusty print journalist of the old school, told us that if the person you're interviewing lies to you, that's your story. Why are they lying? What don't they want you to know?

I don't like to think about how badly the media has failed to live up to that standard in the past two decades or more.
posted by Gelatin at 8:33 AM on September 20, 2016 [61 favorites]

Quartz: New York Times editor on Trump: “We will call out lies”

Ho ho, that's a good one.

Have they succeeded in getting that chicken shop burned down yet?
posted by Artw at 8:33 AM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Have they succeeded in getting that chicken shop burned down yet?

The Fox they subcontracted with hasn't got back to them.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:34 AM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Speaking of Colbert, he was utterly fucking savage last night.

Also, Sam Bee is figuratively on fire.

Here we go, people.
posted by Talez at 8:35 AM on September 20, 2016 [56 favorites]

Trump is a win at all costs type guy so I'm not sure the rhetorical question concerning his decency is perhaps a lost cause.

I'll go farther than that. In Trump's brand of dominance politics, an appeal to his decency would be seen as plaintive begging for mercy by a loser.
posted by Gelatin at 8:35 AM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

Not being decent for him is a feature, not a bug. And for his followers. They love that he's an obnoxious, lying, backstabbing, hotheaded cheater because he's promising to be their obnoxious, lying, backstabbing, hotheaded cheater. He's going to lie and cheat and backstab on their behalf and it'll be great!
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:39 AM on September 20, 2016 [22 favorites]

Seth Meyers: Trump Lies about His Birther Past: A Closer Look
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:41 AM on September 20, 2016 [9 favorites]

I'm trying to think of why the press might benefit from a perspective switch, and I'm not sure I buy that it's going to happen.

If we accept the premise that the press has entertained Trump legitimacy because it is good for business (eg, a close race gets more clicks than a rout) than maybe they finally have found an alternative those clicks: scandal. But that seems unlikely because the scandalous things have always been there, they just haven't been reported.

Trump's insane racist things have been reported, but not because they were insane or racist, but because he said them.Because Trump saying insane racist things isn't scandalous - it's old news. It's common. We expect it, there's no impetus to do anything that would keep him to stop saying those things (ie, call him a liar) because him saying those things and then reporting them in such a way that enables him to say more things is good for business.

And from that perspective I'm not sure anything has changed, except that I think maybe now they understand that calling him a liar doesn't have any bearing on whether or not he will continue to say outrageous things they can report on. Except now they can also claim moral high ground by calling him a liar. They get get traffic from reporting on his outrageous things and by saying that the outrageous things are also false.

What I'm trying to say, poorly, is that I think the media and press have realized that they can have their cake and eat it too. Trump is their cash cow, and he'll continue to generate traffic whether they coddle him or not.
posted by Tevin at 8:41 AM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

I mean given the existential threat of Trump, maybe this could e happened with the media earlier? I mean great they are saying if Trump wins we're fucked, but how many people is that going to reach? It's like, the flaming meteor is coming at us but let's wait until the meteor hits earth's atmosphere to warn people.

Also, the defensive nature of some of the statements of the NYT and Matt Taibbi is not a good look. Okay, it's dawned on you you're not doing your job. Suck it up and make changes, don't blame the populace when we've had this crazy false equivalence for months
posted by angrycat at 8:41 AM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

Are there any lawyers this deep in the thread who can evaluate whether the latest Fahrenthold Trump story is as flagrant a violation of nonprofit law as it seems?
posted by gerryblog at 8:42 AM on September 20, 2016

Minnesotan Police chief refuses to support Trump/Fox News's immigrant narrative on TV.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:46 AM on September 20, 2016 [17 favorites]

Are there any lawyers this deep in the thread who can evaluate whether the latest Fahrenthold Trump story is as flagrant a violation of nonprofit law as it seems?

IANAL, but I will say this -- there doesn't seem to be any statements buried deep in the 25th paragraph saying "there's no actual evidence of any wrongdoing," like there were, occasionally, in the stories about the Clinton Foundation.
posted by Gelatin at 8:51 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

So, serious question— why isn’t anyone arresting Donald Trump and charging him with fraud?

DT is violating law after law, all of the evidence is in PUBLIC FILINGS, a new story comes out every day about him using foundation money to buy himself baubles, and, that’s it, I guess? We have motive, means, opportunity, evidence, eyewitness testimony, an open paper trail of his malfeasance, and...nothing? Really? Are we supposed to assume that they are building a case behind the scenes, or are we supposed to assume that the FOP endorsement means he gets away with everything because he's their white-supremacist bro, or are we supposed to assume that nothing will happen because nothing ever does?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:52 AM on September 20, 2016 [31 favorites]

Trump knows that he's facing serious jail time at some point which I think is why he's trying to thread the needle as he has 2 potential ways out.

1)Get Elected
2)Bully Justice into dropping any and all prosecutions
3)Profit!

1)Get Elected
2)Resign
3)Mike Pence pardons you
4)Profit!

Pretty much every Clinton wins the presidency probably means a whole lot of shady deals come under scrutiny.
posted by vuron at 8:57 AM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump Jr. is tweeting a link to a Breitbart article I'm not going to link saying:

Europe’s Rape Epidemic: Western Women Will Be Sacrificed At The Altar Of Mass Migration

This article is seriously claiming that "tens of thousands" of (white) British girls are being gang raped and tortured by Muslim immigrants. This is neo-Nazi propaganda, pure and simple.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:57 AM on September 20, 2016 [44 favorites]

Technically "protect the white women from minorities" propaganda has a long tradition that predates the Alt-Right, Neo-Nazis, and Nazis themselves.

I don't think we need to suggest that this level of hate has been imported or that it's in anyway new since it's pretty much foundational to our country's history.
posted by vuron at 9:01 AM on September 20, 2016 [9 favorites]

Trump voters have been confronted over and over again with video evidence that he lies about everything all the time, and they don't care. He's not trying to describe our world. He's creating a new one, where Obama and Hillary and millennials and foreigners are responsible for everything wrong with your life and America but it's OK because Yell Dad is going to fix it. A lot of people want to live in that world. The NYT might as well be posting solemn editorials that it will no longer be writing about Game of Thrones without a disclaimer that dragons aren't real.
posted by theodolite at 9:02 AM on September 20, 2016 [37 favorites]

Pretty much every Clinton wins the presidency probably means a whole lot of shady deals come under scrutiny.

Well, maybe. The rules are different for Democrats. Clinton's tarnished reputation is the result of decades of politically motivated Republican fishing expeditions, but the so-called "liberal media" never thinks to doubt that the leaks are offered in good faith.

But the optics of Clinton's political opponent getting prosecuted, even for sloppy fraud committed long before the election for which investigators have him dead to rights, would be terrible. (And would the Republican media establishment respect the evidence, or would they scream "political prisoner?") If memory serves me correctly, some of the earlier threads speculated that part of Trump's motivation for running was as a dodge from his looming legal issues.
posted by Gelatin at 9:05 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Technically "protect the white women from minorities" propaganda has a long tradition that predates the Alt-Right, Neo-Nazis, and Nazis themselves.

Of course. In no way was I suggesting that this was new. Only that the Republican candidate's campaign was endorsing it.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:06 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump voters have been confronted over and over again with video evidence that he lies about everything all the time, and they don't care.

They don't but they're not enough to win the election for him. The people he needs to win do care, hence his huge issues with college educated, women, etc. So continuing to call it out is necessary and productive.
posted by chris24 at 9:07 AM on September 20, 2016 [12 favorites]

Minnesotan Police chief refuses to support Trump/Fox News's immigrant narrative on TV.

direct link
posted by XMLicious at 9:07 AM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

He's not trying to describe our world. He's creating a new one

Hardly a new page from the Republican playbook*:

"That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out."

*Widely attributed to Karl Rove
posted by Gelatin at 9:08 AM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

The NYT might as well be posting solemn editorials that it will no longer be writing about Game of Thrones without a disclaimer that dragons aren't real.

Now the #1 moment I want to see at the debate is Clinton responding to some Trump word salad by saying "you forget that Valyrian is my mother tongue. DRACARYS" and then a dragon roasts his face

[dragons aren't real]
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:09 AM on September 20, 2016 [36 favorites]

Apparently on CNN Fahrenthold is making no bones about this being directly against the law.
posted by gerryblog at 9:11 AM on September 20, 2016 [29 favorites]

Video of Donald Trump calling for intervention in Libya in February 2011.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:12 AM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

I did get the impression from the article though that the penalties for breaking these laws are along the lines of fines, or restitution, but not jail time.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:15 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

"FINE HIM UP! FINE HIM UP!" -- chant suggestion
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:17 AM on September 20, 2016 [10 favorites]

‘You can sleep tonight knowing the Klan is awake.’ Fliers like these are showing up on lawns across the U.S.

Coudersport[, PA] isn’t alone.

Similar packages have recently turned up in communities around the country — from California to Kansas to New Jersey — many of them in the roughly 15 months since Dylann Roof allegedly gunned down nine African Americans at a church in Charleston, S.C.

Each incident follows a similar pattern, with residents waking up to find small plastic bags on their front lawns containing pro-KKK missives. The bags are often weighed down by rocks and sometimes come with a few candies stuffed inside. [...]

The flier inside contained a disparaging screed against African Americans and came with a rock and a lollipop, one longtime resident told the paper. It also listed a phone number and a mailing address for the Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, the resident said. A week earlier, 100 residents in Fullerton, Calif., found similar packages at their homes, the LA Times reported.

I just keep hearing Captain Picard saying, "Red Alert!" in my head. It's going to take a long time to stuff these jerks back into their hidey holes. I hope no one here has had the misfortune of coming across one of these hate missives in the wild.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:18 AM on September 20, 2016 [24 favorites]

Video of Donald Trump calling for intervention in Libya in February 2011

It's almost like that thing The Daily Show used to do where they would show, say, John McCain saying one thing on the campaign trail, and then show an earlier video clip of McCain that contradicted that statement. In fact, I believe there's even a term for it.

...oh, yeah, I remember:

Journalism.
posted by Gelatin at 9:19 AM on September 20, 2016 [40 favorites]

Trump's Israel ground game:

As part of an effort to target what the Israeli chapter of Republicans Overseas says are as many as 300,000 U.S. citizens living there — many of them registered in places ranging from safe Democratic states like New York, New Jersey and California to swing states like Florida and Pennsylvania — the pro-Trump group is employing all the traditional tools long eschewed by the campaign itself.

In some ways, the Trump organizing efforts are more extensive in the West Bank of Israel than in West Palm Beach, Fla.
...
Asked whether there was a similar Democratic effort, Israeli operative Nimrod Dweck replied, “No! No. There’s no reason. Three hundred thousand people, that’s like a small town.”

posted by kirkaracha at 9:22 AM on September 20, 2016

Trump senior adviser Jack Kingston defends Don Jr’s Skittles tweet to @MSNBC, says you could say the same thing with potato chips
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:22 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

The [pro-KKK] bags are often weighed down by rocks and sometimes come with a few candies stuffed inside.

Oh, man, I just realized how fraught trick-or-treating is gonna be this year.
posted by Etrigan at 9:23 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

You know exactly what Halloween is going to to look like.

Sexy Donald Trump costumes as far as the eye can see.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 9:24 AM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

Trump senior adviser Jack Kingston defends Don Jr’s Skittles tweet to @MSNBC, says you could say the same thing with potato chips

INTERVIEWER: "Then why didn't you?"
posted by Gelatin at 9:25 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump senior adviser Jack Kingston defends Don Jr’s Skittles tweet to @MSNBC, says you could say the same thing with potato chips

You could, but you choose Skittles for the Zimmerman connection. So fuck you.
posted by chris24 at 9:27 AM on September 20, 2016 [31 favorites]

The photographer of that Skittles image is a refugee from Cyprus, and he's unhappy about how it's been used.
posted by Superplin at 9:29 AM on September 20, 2016 [26 favorites]

I did get the impression from the article though that the penalties for breaking these laws are along the lines of fines, or restitution, but not jail time.

The IRS has powers to terminate a private foundation's status for repeated violations, then levy a 'termination tax' against either its net assets or the cumulative liabilities that would have been incurred had the foundation not been tax exempt.
posted by holgate at 9:30 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

THE GUY WHO TOOK THE SKITTLES PHOTO IS LITERALLY A REFUGEE:

David Kittos, 48, from Guildford, UK, woke up to find an image he had posted to Flickr in January 2010 had become embroiled in a political controversy.

"This was not done with my permission, I don't support his politics and I would never take his money to use it," Mr Kittos told the BBC.

"In 1974, when I was six-years old, I was a refugee from the Turkish occupation of Cyprus so I would never approve the use of this image against refugees."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:31 AM on September 20, 2016 [59 favorites]

"Every picture tells a story".
posted by drezdn at 9:31 AM on September 20, 2016 [13 favorites]

You could, but you choose Skittles for the Zimmerman connection. So fuck you

I don't know if that's true, but Skittles was exceptionally stupid because the Potato Board wouldn't have felt compelled to respond.
posted by zutalors! at 9:31 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Or, what Superplin said.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:32 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Potato Board has been behind this the whole time!!
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 9:33 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Mandolin Conspiracy, you gave more in-thread details, so you still win.
posted by Superplin at 9:35 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

The people who scoff at the idea of rape culture, claiming it's just the product of a cult of victimization, are now gnashing their teeth over the lie that swarms of Muslims are/will be raping "their" women.

It's mind-boggling hypocrisy at its mind-bogglingest.
posted by Superplin at 9:39 AM on September 20, 2016 [20 favorites]

Great googly moogly, but today's Fahrenthold article is a scorcher. It points out the likely illegal nature of the payments in the second graf, and includes images of the checks said to have been used to make improper payments.

Also, this:

The other expenditures involved smaller amounts. In 2013, Trump used $5,000 from the foundation to buy advertisements touting his chain of hotels in programs for three events organized by a D.C. preservation group. And in 2014, Trump spent $10,000 of the foundation’s money for a portrait of himself bought at a charity fundraiser.

Or, rather, another portrait of himself.

Several years earlier, Trump had used $20,000 from the Trump Foundation to buy a different, six foot-tall portrait.

Oh, snap!
posted by Gelatin at 9:41 AM on September 20, 2016 [30 favorites]

You know exactly what Halloween is going to to look like.

Sexy Donald Trump costumes as far as the eye can see.

Early anecdote: a local Walgreens is not yet participating in the election indicators of halloween mask sales, because all they had were Barack Obama masks.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:42 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Mandolin Conspiracy, you gave more in-thread details, so you still win.

Heh. This thing moves so fast we're all basically roadkill.

Here's the thing: it turns out they couldn't even be arsed to buy a stock photo and the accompanying rights to use it.

So the Skittles tweet is a hypothetical Trump presidency, foretold: not just the racism and xenophobia (thought there's that too), but also complete ignorance of entry-level business fundamentals.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:42 AM on September 20, 2016 [24 favorites]

DT is violating law after law, all of the evidence is in PUBLIC FILINGS, a new story comes out every day about him using foundation money to buy himself baubles, and, that’s it, I guess? We have motive, means, opportunity, evidence, eyewitness testimony, an open paper trail of his malfeasance, and...nothing?

Just last week, New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman opened a new probe into the Trump Foundation, telling CNN, "we have been concerned that the Trump Foundation may have engaged in some impropriety", which is as harsh a statement as can be allowed without undermining his legal position.

The Trump camp, having no such obligation toward impartiality, promptly called him a "a partisan hack" and the probe a "left-wing hit job". Trump himself was suspiciously quiet on Twitter, however, although in the past he'd attacked Schneiderman personally about the Trump U. lawsuit. That suggests there's a lot more going on under the surface of this particular scandal, maybe enough for it to register among the media and the public. Keep watching this space...
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:43 AM on September 20, 2016 [12 favorites]

Okay. If Trump wins, who's going to hide @Fahrenthold?
posted by chris24 at 9:45 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Okay. If Trump wins, who's going to hide @Fahrenthold?

The pile of journalism awards, presumably.
posted by Etrigan at 9:49 AM on September 20, 2016 [44 favorites]

An old bit of Donald's use of "our" vs "their" and trying to make "Dreamers" a term for white folks, from back in August:

I refuse to let another generation of American children be excluded from the American Dream. Our whole country loses when young people of limitless potential are denied the opportunity to contribute their talents because we failed to provide them the opportunities they deserved. Let our children be dreamers too.

Taken from a press release on DJT.com; emphasis mine. I looked for this because I heard a quote of it or something like it in an NPR piece this morning on Clinton and Trump's polling with young people, with another misleading headline ("Clinton And Trump Poll Poorly With Voters Under 35, Research Shows") -- clarification: Clinton isn't polling as well as Obama did, but still way ahead of Trump with this group.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:50 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Huh, they have a 24-hour Klan Line.
posted by yhbc at 9:51 AM on September 20, 2016

I was... darkly amused, I guess? that they chose to call it a 24-Hour Klanline instead of just a 24-Hour Hotline. Because, much like the institution of higher education I work for, they simply cannot resist rebranding a thing that already has a name with a much, much dumber-sounding name. (I should note that that is where the similarities between my employer and the KKK end.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:53 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

NBC's Andrea Mitchell is now playing along with Trump's conspiracy theories about Clinton's health.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:54 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Huh, they have a 24-hour Klan Line.

You know, for when you get your hood on backwards and need someone to talk you through it.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:54 AM on September 20, 2016 [11 favorites]

Or when those pesky crosses just won't catch on fire.
posted by yhbc at 9:55 AM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

mandolin conspiracy: Here's the thing: it turns out they couldn't even be arsed to buy a stock photo and the accompanying rights to use it.

This isn't just an issue with Trump's campaign - see Why Politicians Keep Using Songs Without Artists' Permission (Rolling Stone, July 9, 2015). But there's an angle the article doesn't address: "the internet sharing culture" and the idea that you can repurpose anything if you're not selling something, because it's already out there on the internet for free.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:55 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

You could, but you choose Skittles for the Zimmerman connection. So fuck you

I don't know if that's true

Trump Jr.'s Bogus ‘Skittles’ Refugee Analogy A Favorite Of White Nationalists

Given his multiple retweets of neo-Nazis, the one today about rape, etc. etc. I personally cannot do anything but assume it's intentional.
posted by chris24 at 9:56 AM on September 20, 2016 [12 favorites]

Or when your hood catches fire!
posted by agregoli at 9:56 AM on September 20, 2016

i really want to prank call that KKK hotline
posted by angrycat at 9:58 AM on September 20, 2016 [9 favorites]

Trump Jr.'s Bogus ‘Skittles’ Refugee Analogy A Favorite Of White Nationalists

Given his multiple retweets of neo-Nazis, the one today about rape, etc. etc. I personally cannot do anything but assume it's intentional.

ugh ew ok

(I'm not up on my white nationalist memes)
posted by zutalors! at 9:59 AM on September 20, 2016

NBC's Andrea Mitchell is now playing along with Trump's conspiracy theories about Clinton's health.

"Hi @HillaryClinton @realDonaldTrump tweets u r taking the day off "sleep well" he'll see you at the debate. Prove him wrong call into #AMR?"

And then 9 minutes later, Andrea Mitchell tweets:

"@HillaryClinton @realDonaldTrump #AMR just kidding! We know you are meeting with national security advisors maybe next time!"

posted by cashman at 10:01 AM on September 20, 2016 [13 favorites]

I personally cannot do anything but assume it's intentional.

Trump Jr.'s Neshoba County Fair appearance, Pepe, now Skittles... I'm sure there are lots I'm missing but those are the ones that stand out in my memory.
posted by XMLicious at 10:03 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Andrea Mitchell is quickly losing any amount of esteem I had for her.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:05 AM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

Early anecdote: a local Walgreens is not yet participating in the election indicators of halloween mask sales, because all they had were Barack Obama masks.

There are Hillary, Trump and Obama masks at my local Walgreen's.
posted by emjaybee at 10:05 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three+ times is a white supremacist.
posted by chris24 at 10:06 AM on September 20, 2016 [27 favorites]

lalex, that ad is freaking phenomenal. Thank you. So much.
posted by xyzzy at 10:06 AM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Re: Missouri, the Democratic Senate candidate is running QUITE an ad.

There wasn't a literal mic-drop, but it sure as hell feels like there was.
posted by VTX at 10:07 AM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

And then 9 minutes later, Andrea Mitchell tweets:

9 minutes: Just enough time for an NBC producer to have texted her the real scoop on Hillary's itinerary and for her to compose a follow-up tweet to desperately try to save face by pretending she was JK-ing the whole time.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:08 AM on September 20, 2016 [37 favorites]

So the ad has great visuals, but I don't get the message: is he for or against gun control? Or does he just not think his opponent can assemble his weapon with a blindfold on? I'm not from the area so I lack any context.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:09 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

NEW Monmouth poll of FL:

Clinton 46 Trump 41 Johnson 6

Senate:

Rubio 47 Murphy 45

Second FL poll this week (NYT/Siena) with HRC up.
posted by chris24 at 10:12 AM on September 20, 2016 [13 favorites]

So the ad has great visuals, but I don't get the message: is he for or against gun control?

For "common sense" restrictions. The beauty is that he field assembles a rifle blindfolded to demonstrate he's comfortable with guns.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:14 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

So the ad has great visuals, but I don't get the message:

One of the frequent attacks by Rs/NRA types is that liberals who want gun regulations know nothing about guns, clip vs. magazine, etc. etc. This shows he knows his guns, was in the military and yes, wants some sensible gun regulation.
posted by chris24 at 10:14 AM on September 20, 2016 [22 favorites]

So the ad has great visuals, but I don't get the message: is he for or against gun control? Or does he just not think his opponent can assemble his weapon with a blindfold on?

A big part of "The Democrats are comin' to take our guns!" FUD is couched in "They don't even know anything about our guns, or else they'd see how awesome and useful they are!" Kander is saying "I know about guns -- in fact, I know a lot about guns, and that makes me far more qualified to legislate them than some jackwagon who got three deferments during Vietnam."
posted by Etrigan at 10:15 AM on September 20, 2016 [38 favorites]

Re: Missouri, the Democratic Senate candidate is running QUITE an ad.

"I approved this message, because I'd like to see [my opponent] do this [assemble an assault rifle blindfolded]."

Oh, snap!

I don't get the message: is he for or against gun control?

He's for background checks, but I gather his opponent is spewing the usual Republican lies about "ZOMG the Democrats are coming to take all your guns away!" (see also, presidency of Barak Obama, 2008-present)

The visuals are a terrific signal that the Republican rhetoric is a load of hogwash.
posted by Gelatin at 10:15 AM on September 20, 2016 [11 favorites]

(on lack of preview, what Etrigan said.)
posted by Gelatin at 10:16 AM on September 20, 2016

Harry Enten of 538 mentioned on MSNBC at some point that Clinton does better when the focus is off her and on Trump, which is super sad but true. I personally would love to hear her talk more about her awesome plans for our country but the media and public don't seem all that interested.
posted by zutalors! at 10:17 AM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Kander's ad also appears to be done in a single take. His assembling the rifle, blindfolded, while keeping the cadence of his spoken message and obviously not using cue cards is an impressive performance. I expect, and hope, that Missouri voters will remember it.
posted by Gelatin at 10:19 AM on September 20, 2016 [28 favorites]

Jason Kander, shut up and take my money!
posted by erisfree at 10:21 AM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

So the NRA ran an attack ad against Kander. This was the text:

“It’s 4 a.m. and something’s not right. You have a right to protect your home with a firearm. But liberal politician Jason Kander voted against your right. … Jason Kander refused to defend your Second Amendment rights in Jefferson City. How could you trust him in Washington?”

Unfortunately for the NRA, Kander actually voted for a bill to extend MO's castle doctrine to cover the property line and not just the actual castle, as it were. Media Matters has the whole story.
posted by xyzzy at 10:22 AM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Obama Throws Himself Into 2016 Race Hellbent on Clinton Victory

"Barack Obama is about to launch a presidential campaign blitz for Hillary Clinton unprecedented in the modern era, pledging a dramatic commitment of time and resources to a contest he now unabashedly frames as a referendum on his personal and political prestige.

Obama plans to devote at least one to two days each week in October to campaign for Clinton through rallies, targeted radio and television interviews, social media outreach and fundraising, said an adviser who requested anonymity.

In addition, the president’s aides have told the Clinton campaign he would be willing to appear in television ads for her. His wife, Michelle, has already cut radio, online and TV ads for the Democratic nominee, another aide said, also requesting anonymity to discuss internal planning."
posted by chris24 at 10:24 AM on September 20, 2016 [18 favorites]

National treasure Andrea Grimes of the Texas Observer: Trump’s Twitter Account Alone Disqualifies Him for POTUS

In a way, Twitter’s kind of a blessing for those of us tasked with parsing what happens when Trump opens his mouth. The guy is a walking word salad, which works in his favor basically all the time, forcing journalists to do their damnedest to make sense of the downright unintelligible things he says. His supporters hear what they want to hear when Trump, for example, suggests that there’s something “Second Amendment people” can do to stop Hillary Clinton from nominating Supreme Court judges. Reporters are stuck trying to figure out if a presidential candidate actually meant to encourage violence against his opponent. And Trump gets to play innocent, claiming he didn’t mean what everyone took him to mean. Who can argue, really? It’s impossible, in truth, to decipher a guy who talks not just in circles, but in Escher-esque loops.

But when Trump takes to Twitter, he speaks with a kind of remarkably incoherent clarity, channelling a brain teeming with anger and an outsized persecution complex into 140-character bursts of salt and spit. In a historic endorsement of a Democrat for president — their first in 75 years — the Dallas Morning News editorial board took note of Trump’s online antics, writing that “his improvisational insults and midnight tweets exhibit a dangerous lack of judgment and impulse control.”

posted by Existential Dread at 10:28 AM on September 20, 2016 [42 favorites]

Okay. If Trump wins, who's going to hide @Fahrenthold?

We can probably look forward to the WaPo editorial board calling for him to be tried for treason and hanged.
posted by indubitable at 10:30 AM on September 20, 2016 [19 favorites]

I'm working as a volunteer intern at a primary campaign field office. If you're curious about things you can do to help the Democratic effort, here are some things that could be very helpful.

- Volunteer to canvass or phone bank. These activities are the most important thing to do. I know that they are not necessarily easy or comfortable, but it's how we're going to get voters to vote. Volunteers get scripts and instructions on how to approach a variety of responses. At our office, we don't do persuasion, so you don't have to argue with the supporters of Hillary's opponent. You don't even have to be eligible to vote to call people or canvas.

- Volunteer to do data entry. Data entry helps a great deal, but it's the kind of work that is not always available. Evenings can be a very busy time, so office work is often needed. Availability will likely depend on the needs of each office.

- Show up to do phone banking or canvassing for downticket races as well. Some people are all about wanting to volunteer for Hillary Clinton (and that's cool), but it's so so important to elect progressive candidates to federal AND state office. If the other party win too many lower offices, obstructing governance becomes much easier.

- Schedule a recurring shift. Being able to plan around who is coming in when makes life easier for everyone.

- Don't expect to talk too much policy or political news, especially if it's super busy. Some of that will definitely happen, but the first responsibility of the staff and volunteers is getting out sympathetic voters.

If you can't do these activities for whatever reason, we need other things as well.

- As has been mentioned many times, food donations are wonderful. People bring lots of sweets, so savory items and vegetables are excellent choices. Also, black and herbal teas are wonderful too! Coffee is plentiful, while tea is...less so.

- Ask if your office need something made or needs some sort of special supplies. For instance, if the office needs a coat rack, and you can throw together a board with nails on it to hang coats for busy nights, they would likely love you. Special supplies might include table clothes, spare computer parts, office supplies..Any amount of money that doesn't have to be spent on things like that is money to use on election activities.

- Donate $$ for merch.

I've felt a wonderful sense of camaraderie from both the staff and volunteers. Such a diverse group come in to work for such a critical common cause--it makes me feel really good to see people working together. Working to save the Republic from a scam-master charlatan feels empowering.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 10:33 AM on September 20, 2016 [34 favorites]

takes off blindfold

I think you mean [Slams down blindfold like 'do you want some? no, you do not.']
posted by cashman at 10:36 AM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

‏@HillaryClinton Another unarmed Black man was shot in a police incident. This should be intolerable. We have so much work to do. #TerenceCrutcher -H
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:37 AM on September 20, 2016 [38 favorites]

I see the appeal of that ad, but I'm someone who doesn't know which end the bullets come out and I think my opinion on gun control is just as valid. (I also wasn't in the military yet I think I should be able to have an opinion on football players and the National Anthem.)
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:38 AM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

It's a good ad. It will appeal to many people. Politics is complex.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:39 AM on September 20, 2016 [20 favorites]

The problem with that Andrea Mitchell sequence is the sense of elite media entitlement and the idea that if something's not live on television, it doesn't count. It's the end point of a prevailing news culture that puts WBFK's Action Eyewitness News Team in a deserted parking lot for live local coverage of something that happened two days ago because reasons.

When you don't have a real campaign, then you can spend all your time being a gobshite in public view.
posted by holgate at 10:40 AM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm someone who doesn't know which end the bullets come out and I think my opinion on gun control is just as valid.

I agree, and Kander probably does too, but this is defeating the enemy on their territory.
posted by chris24 at 10:41 AM on September 20, 2016 [27 favorites]

Here's Blunt's response to Kander's ad. I dunno, for the demographic they both seem to be trying to reach here, I'm not sure Kander's ad is as powerful as we like to think.
posted by Roommate at 10:41 AM on September 20, 2016

Ah-hah -- thank you, lalex!

I couldn't hear the fragment "I also believe in background checks" very clearly as he slapped the last piece home, so none of it made sense. Now the sound and the sense totally work.

And yes, the visuals make his bona fides quite clear. :7)
posted by wenestvedt at 10:42 AM on September 20, 2016

I see the appeal of that ad, but I'm someone who doesn't know which end the bullets come out and I think my opinion on gun control is just as valid.

You're not running against a guy with an NRA rating of "A" who has already claimed that you were soft on guns.
posted by Etrigan at 10:44 AM on September 20, 2016 [9 favorites]

I guess an ad like that is the price of admission for Missouri Democrats running for Senate in 2016. Support for background checks, even with the "it's only to keep the terrorists from getting them" disclaimer, is about all there is to be had right now on the gun issue. As much as I support gun control, that battle isn't going to be won in Missouri, and at this point, anything that makes the Senate math better for the purposes of working with Hillary / stopping Trump is a good thing.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:48 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

In my dream world a politician could stand up and say "hell yes I'm soft on guns, they scare me and I want to get rid of them." I suspect Missouri is not my dream world.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:48 AM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

Going back a bit: Are there any lawyers this deep in the thread who can evaluate whether the latest Fahrenthold Trump story is as flagrant a violation of nonprofit law as it seems?

Not sure about nonprofit law (which would be a state-by-state thing), but re tax law violations, here's a quick rundown of the issues:

-DJT Foundation is a private foundation, so it's subject to an excise tax if it engages in "self-dealing," which is any number of transactions between the foundation and a "disqualified person" (basically Trump & kids/spouse & companies)

-self dealing includes loans, sale/exchange/lease of property, furnishing goods/services, paying compensation, transferring assets, or payments to government officials [government officials are de facto "disqualified persons" for purposes of the self dealing regulations]

-there is a private letter ruling (persuasive but not binding authority) stating that display of an art collection by a private foundation at a shopping center owned by a disqualified person was NOT self dealing, as it didn't really provide more than an incidental benefit -- not sure a similar standard would be applied for Trump's paintings as there are different facts; notably that the shopping center did not restrict the public's access to the paintings (whereas Trump's portraits were allegedly in a boardroom or other nonpublic space)

-legal settlement obligation was a debt of Trump (or a Trump entity? if so, let's assume it was a disqualified person); the foundation paid his debt; this is akin to the foundation transferring the money to him and is pretty much the plain definition of self dealing. It seems to have happened in 2007 though, so it's beyond even the extended 6-year statute of limitations (normal SoL is 3 years if you adequately disclosed the item). Though it's possible the foundation was already under audit for those years so maybe the year is still open. There may be things in Trump's personal or business returns that also acts as a backdoor around the statute of limitations.

-the self dealing excise tax is 10%, imposed on the disqualified person who benefited (more details here); the IRS is pretty strict about the self-dealing rules and doesn't take this shit lightly; a single transaction can constitute multiple acts of self dealing

So, yes, it seems to all be in violation of tax law, but some of it may not be actionable anymore (from a fed tax perspective). However, there may be other avenues to attack it via state law. Note that the IRS is woefully under-funded and the GOP already wants to impeach the commissioner for BS related to the investigation of the fraudulent right-wing PACs.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:50 AM on September 20, 2016 [32 favorites]

A big part of "The Democrats are comin' to take our guns!" FUD is couched in "They don't even know anything about our guns, or else they'd see how awesome and useful they are!" Kander is saying "I know about guns -- in fact, I know a lot about guns, and that makes me far more qualified to legislate them than some jackwagon who got three deferments during Vietnam."

It's not a totally untrue criticism, though it's obviously being used for absolutely horrible ends. I was raised in a liberal gun-owning household, and in my experience, many of my fellow liberals know as much about guns as your average conservative seems to know about drugs. I've never owned a gun myself and probably never will, but I don't think it's really any more excusable to not know a semi-automatic from a machine gun than it is to not know a bong from a crack pipe, if you're going to be making assertions about gun/drug policy. So personally I am very impressed by this ad.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:54 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Chief Executive Fear Mongerer (Web Bonus: Act 2, Part 2) | Full Frontal with Samantha Bee | TBS

Good summary of how Fox has inserted itself into the Republican Party.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:57 AM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

You don't need to know about guns to have a valid opinion on gun control. But it does help to know what you're talking about when it comes time to develop policy about it. That knowledge may come in the form of expert advisors and research, but it's helpful if you need to rely on them to make your decisions.

Kander is a guy who is intimately familiar with just how dangerous those weapons can be so I think he probably has a better grasps of what steps can be taken to mitigate that danger. You just don't need to know anything about guns to want that danger mitigated.

Similar to the advantage you'd have as a politician if you used to be a climate scientist and are addressing climate change issues. No special knowledge needed to support action, but you'd probably have a better idea than most exactly what those actions should be.
posted by VTX at 10:58 AM on September 20, 2016 [12 favorites]

You don't need to know about guns to have a valid opinion on gun control. But it does help to know what you're talking about when it comes time to develop policy about it.

That's definitely fair, yeah. I guess I just get frustrated with, for example, the stuff about 'assault weapons' which is a phrase which sounds scary but is really pretty meaningless, or passing bans of specific configurations of weapons which are trivially easy to get around. I often feel like we keep passing such weird, piecemeal, unhelpful gun control legislation because guns are so poorly understood, so something which on paper sounds like a slam dunk win for gun control winds up being toothless. Which then convinces the more pro-gun types that, well, those liberals don't understand the first thing about guns so why should we listen to them about background checks and so on?
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:04 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trumpism Is the Symptom of a Gravely Ill Constitution

"Trumpism is the symptom, not the cause, of the malaise. I think we have for some time been living in the post-Constitution era. America’s fundamental law remains and will remain important as a source of litigation. But the nation seems to have turned away from a search of values in the Constitution, regarding it instead as a set of annoying rules.

[...]

"Trump’s most consistent and serious commitment is to the destruction of free expression. (Note that his response to the bombings in New York and New Jersey was to call for a rollback of the free press, on the grounds that “magazines” are somehow instructing the bombers.) In other areas, his program is torture, hostage taking, murder of innocent civilians, treaty repudiation, militarized borders, official embrace of Christianity, exclusion and surveillance of non-favored religious groups, an end to birthright citizenship, racial and religious profiling, violent and unrestrained law enforcement, and mass roundups and deportation."

posted by monospace at 11:04 AM on September 20, 2016 [18 favorites]

I think we have for some time been living in the post-Constitution era... the nation seems to have turned away from a search of values in the Constitution, regarding it instead as a set of annoying rules.

Yup.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:09 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

We have so much work to do. #TerenceCrutcher -H

Did HRC just reference, tactfully and fittingly, a Hamilton line from the little scene that's not on the album (link contains sort of a spoiler for the show if you're going to see it live and must be surprised, but it's certainly not going to ruin your experience if you know)? That's hardcore fandom right there.
posted by zachlipton at 11:09 AM on September 20, 2016 [12 favorites]

You don't need to know about guns to have a valid opinion on gun control. But it does help to know what you're talking about when it comes time to develop policy about it.

Right. Otherwise you end up with silliness like the Assault Weapons ban, which targeted cosmetic features.

You want to make a difference? Ban gas-powered rifles, the Ar-15s and similar. The difference between them and machine guns is meaningless (if anything, they encourage more accurate shooting.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:10 AM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

But the nation seems to have turned away from a search of values in the Constitution, regarding it instead as a set of annoying rules.

Wherein by nation he means Republicans, and what they're sick of is those "rules" being extended to women and POC.
posted by chris24 at 11:11 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

official embrace of Christianity Mammon worship, nationalism, violence idolatry, patriarchy and racism masquerading as a perverted form of religion.

FTFY because it ain't no kind of Christianity.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 11:12 AM on September 20, 2016 [14 favorites]

many of my fellow liberals know as much about guns as your average conservative seems to know about drugs.

So they secretly shoot assault rifles in truck stop bathroom stalls?
posted by charred husk at 11:14 AM on September 20, 2016 [18 favorites]

So they secretly shoot assault rifles in truck stop bathroom stalls?

that's why they need the wide stance.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 11:16 AM on September 20, 2016 [15 favorites]

So they secretly shoot assault rifles in truck stop bathroom stalls?

no they get prescriptions for assault rifles from their doctor and die from liver failure or accidental overdose
posted by entropicamericana at 11:17 AM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

That's hardcore fandom right there.

really? cuz to me that seems inappropriate and tacky as hell, if that's the case. not everything can or should be a pop culture reference.
posted by burgerrr at 11:18 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

New Clinton campaign ad: "The voice of your vote is the greatest voice we have." (or on Facebook if you prefer your videos there).

In addition to being a strong message in its own right, it shows how powerful the simple act of making captions a stylistic element of her ads is. Because that simple act sends a message to the disabled community - that Clinton wants their vote, that she wants to represent them.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:20 AM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

not everything can or should be a pop culture reference.

It's a normal expression that might be that more poignant if some people recognize it. Who cares?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:20 AM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

really? cuz to me that seems inappropriate and tacky as hell, if that's the case. not everything can or should be a pop culture reference.

Or, in fact, is one.
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:21 AM on September 20, 2016 [16 favorites]

"We have so much work to do" is not a sentence unique to Hamilton. Not everything is a reference to Hamilton. Sometimes a sentence is just a sentence. The message in her tweet is so much more important than whether or not it's a reference to a popular musical.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 11:25 AM on September 20, 2016 [48 favorites]

Excommunicated Cardinal: You don't even have to be eligible to vote to call people or canvas.

I want to highlight this point. I think I've mentioned before that one of our local party office leaders, who is the volunteer coordinator among other things (I'm not sure of her official title) is a Dreamer. She learned she wasn't a citizen when she graduated high school; her mother told her in tears that she should just plan on working as a cleaner and forget about any other dreams she might have.

She has worked on numerous local and state-wide campaigns and Obama 2012, and is continuing to work her ass off getting people out and voting for Clinton and progressive downticket candidates. She's not eligible to vote, but she's making sure her voice is heard by getting everyone who can to exercise their right. I admire the hell out of this young woman.
posted by Superplin at 11:25 AM on September 20, 2016 [48 favorites]

Sometimes a sentence is just a sentence.

Is that from Les Mis?
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:28 AM on September 20, 2016 [58 favorites]

Trump senior adviser Jack Kingston defends Don Jr’s Skittles tweet to @MSNBC, says you could say the same thing with potato chips

This made me LOL because the Skittles things is racist AF, but even with Potato Chips, its still pretty racist. I know this is among the ultimate Metafilter cliches, but this is a Christ what an asshole moment of epic proportion.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:33 AM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Just to show you how much the U.S. disrespects Puerto Rico. I went to a store in 2013 and they had hundreds of cheap plastic Mitt Romney Halloween masks. Yeah, that's what kids are going to wear. In 2013.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:46 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Donald Trump Jr. Is Tweeting Straight- Up White Nationalist Propaganda Now

Donald Trump Jr. on Tuesday morning decided to re-up a column from an anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant British activist blaring that "Western woman will be sacrificed at the alter of mass migration."

He's going to say the 14 words by October at this point.
posted by asteria at 11:47 AM on September 20, 2016 [12 favorites]

Trump: ‘I Never Said’ Muslims Should Be Profiled:

“I never said the term ‘Muslim,’” Trump told Fox News host Bill O’Reilly, who asked whether Trump’s profiling plan could cause all Muslims to be viewed with suspicion. “I’m saying we’re going to profile people that maybe look suspicious, I didn’t say [if] they were Muslims or not.”

Trump: "Profiling" of Muslims "Is Something We're Going to Have to Start Thinking About":

Face the Nation: Are you talking about increasing profiling of Muslims in America?

Trump: Well I think profiling is something that we're going to have to start thinking about as a country. And other countries do it, and you look at Israel and you look at others, and they do it and they do it successfully. And I hate the concept of profiling, but we have to start using common sense and, you know, we have to use our heads.

posted by kirkaracha at 11:48 AM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Donald Trump Jr. Is Tweeting Straight- Up White Nationalist Propaganda Now

I reported it as offensive, not that Twitter would ever do anything about that, but it felt good
posted by TwoWordReview at 11:49 AM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

Oh, I see -- Trump didn't say "Muslim;" he simply agreed when the interviewer said Muslims.
posted by Gelatin at 11:50 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Could there be a worse example than Israel of racial profiling's effectiveness at eliminating terrorist attacks?
posted by vathek at 11:52 AM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

I guess right now would be a good time to throw out a book recommendation: The Myth of the Muslim Tide.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:55 AM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

if anything, they encourage more accurate shooting

"Fun" fact, the bog-standard M16 that your average infantryman carries doesn't even have a full-auto mode anymore. The fire select switch only has "Safe", "Semi", and "Burst" which fires three rounds at a time.

It's a lot more accurate than full-auto mode and helps soldiers conserve ammunition. It's also because it can be hard not fire in controlled bursts in combat unless you have a lot of experience (for the record, I have none) which is why the more specialized variants that get used by special forces and the like, do still have full-auto mode.

I know a fair amount about guns, I think they are neat in the sense that they are a fairly simple, compact device that can unleash a HUGE amount of force. I also used to play a lot of first-person, military style shooters. So I just generally find them fascinating. But having fired many different weapons in video games and knowing a lot about these weapons means that they scare the ever-living shit out of me.

I don't understand how knowing more about guns makes people less supportive of restrictions. I would think that the more you know about them and how they perform, the more you'd want to get rid of all of them and/or put HEAVY restrictions on their use.
posted by VTX at 11:55 AM on September 20, 2016 [13 favorites]

Considering that Hillary is currently in a better position that Obama was 4 years I'm not sure if the race will tighten any further baring a major incident with the campaigns or national security.

On Sep 20, 2012 Obama led Romney in the RealClearPolitics polling average by 3.5 points. Clinton leads Trump by 1.1 points in the RCP polling average today.
posted by Justinian at 11:59 AM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

I guess right now would be a good time to throw out a book recommendation: The Myth of the Muslim Tide.

Man, Robert Asprin's stuff got really weird towards the end.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:59 AM on September 20, 2016 [17 favorites]

Donald Trump’s interview with Bill O’Reilly was an instant classic [Washington Post annotations]:

O'REILLY: Do you have a vision of how that profiling would work?

TRUMP: It works. And we see somebody that we think there could be a problem. At airports and other places. You talked to them and you see what's going on.

O'REILLY: But I think they do that now.

TRUMP: We don't do that.

posted by kirkaracha at 12:00 PM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

“I never said the term ‘Muslim”

Even better, he has a statement on his website calling for "a complete and total shutdown of Muslims entering the United States."
posted by chris24 at 12:03 PM on September 20, 2016 [27 favorites]

Even better, he has a statement on his website calling for "a complete and total shutdown of Muslims entering the United States."

And there's video!
I thought about including this clip but it's not specifically about profiling.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:06 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump’s club sued in federal court, saying that a smaller flag “would fail to appropriately express the magnitude of Donald J. Trump’s . . . patriotism.”

Trump's battle over the flagpole was never about the flagpole. Politico covered it a year ago:

Tucked into his patriotic posturing was a completely unrelated legal matter that he made part of his multi-million lawsuit: a complaint about the town code that requires large commercial enterprises to be “town serving.” The town requires proof from local businesses that at least 50 percent of their business comes from town residents. So, for example, when Neiman Marcus opened on Worth Avenue in Palm Beach, it was allowed to do so by promising that it would only advertise in the town’s newspaper, and not in publications that circulated to shoppers who don’t live on the island.

For Trump, eliminating the “town serving” requirement would mean that he could offer more memberships to his Mar-a-Lago social club to people who had no connection to Palm Beach, making it easier for him to keep his club full. Softening up the town on the flag issue to pursue some other angle was a classic Trump move. Though he has yet to get this particular exemption waived, Palm Beach has learned from experience that Trump’s lawsuits are never settled, just dormant. One of his Palm Beach lawyers said recently that the “town serving” issue is still unresolved and ripe for more litigation.

As for the flag, guess who won?

Trump eventually dropped his lawsuit over the flag, and in exchange the town waived its fines. As terms of a court-ordered mediation, Trump would file for a permit and be allowed to keep an oversized pole on Mar-a-Lago that was 10-feet shorter than original pole and on a different spot on his lawn. The agreement also called for him to donate $100,000 to veterans’ charities.

That’s some expensive defiance. But maybe you’ve got look at in a more Trumpian light. He essentially got what he wanted: The biggest pole on Palm Beach. (Paging Dr. Freud?)

posted by peeedro at 12:07 PM on September 20, 2016 [10 favorites]

Fun" fact, the bog-standard M16 that your average infantryman carries doesn't even have a full-auto mode anymore. The fire select switch only has "Safe", "Semi", and "Burst" which fires three rounds at a time.

It's sobering to realize we could probably make guns in America safer by requiring full automatic mode, which would effectively impose an accuracy and ammunition tax on mass shooters.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:09 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

I often feel like we keep passing such weird, piecemeal, unhelpful gun control legislation because guns are so poorly understood, so something which on paper sounds like a slam dunk win for gun control winds up being toothless. Which then convinces the more pro-gun types that,

The pro-gun types (and as a lefty gun owner myself I'd actually phrase this not as pro-gun but as extremist ammosexual absolutists) need no convincing; they are already convinced and calcified. It is more accurate to say that it provides them something to point at and scoff, though much of these weak-ass restrictions are because of opponents to sensible restrictions poisoning any and all legislation on the matter.

Yeah, the cause requires us to be perfect so as to not provide opponents materials to use against us. But let's not phrase it in a way that implies that we've in any way guided the beliefs and intractability of these folks. They were there already and aren't budging.
posted by phearlez at 12:12 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's sobering to realize we could probably make guns in America safer by requiring full automatic mode, which would effectively impose an accuracy and ammunition tax on mass shooters.

Please don't give the NRA any ideas.
posted by mazola at 12:16 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

So about the Skittles thing. It has been a white supremacist tradition dating all the way back to the time of the Nazis.

Trump’s tweet has clear parallels to Streicher’s children’s book, where a boy named Franz learns about the Jews from his mother:

“However they disguise themselves, or however friendly they try to be, affirming a thousand times their good intentions to us, one must not believe them. Jews they are and Jews they remain. For our Volk they are poison.”

“Like the poisonous mushroom!” says Franz.

“Yes, my child! Just as a single poisonous mushrooms can kill a whole family, so a solitary Jew can destroy a whole village, a whole city, even an entire Volk [nation].”

I'd say someone should tell Trump Jr. but he'd probably bitch about how they hung Streicher for expressing his opinion and we should learn from him to not hurt the feelings of jew-baiters (i.e. master baiters like himself).
posted by Talez at 12:19 PM on September 20, 2016 [21 favorites]

O'REILLY: Okay. Now, if she baits you into trying to say something inappropriate or explosive or controversial, are you aware that that might happen?

TRUMP: Hey, I went to the best school. I was the best -- I was a very good student. I mean, you know, Bill, what kind of a question is that? If she baits me.

O'REILLY: Well, I mean, look, yes.

TRUMP: She can bait me and I can bait her and we will see what happens.

posted by kirkaracha at 12:21 PM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

I posted the link to Fahrentholds latest article on facebook and like clockwork my Tea party loving Trump supporting friend showed up in the comments. It's been very enjoyable seeing him completely unable to argue against anything in the article. The best he's got is 'Clinton will be in a hospice or prison soon' and 'I found out David Fahrenthold is straight and went to a very wealthy private school'. He'll never change, and he can't help but respond (it's a reflex or something) but it's glorious to watch him squirm this time and try and discredit and change the subject, but the evidence is right there and it's irrefutable! :)
posted by TwoWordReview at 12:23 PM on September 20, 2016 [9 favorites]

On Sep 20, 2012 Obama led Romney in the RealClearPolitics polling average by 3.5 points. Clinton leads Trump by 1.1 points in the RCP polling average today.

The Democratic Convention had ended two weeks before so he may have still been enjoying a bounce from that. The first debate wasn't until October 3rd.
posted by asteria at 12:28 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Kirkaracha, it reads as if Trump believes he can't be baited...? Bless his heart.
posted by erisfree at 12:29 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

So, yes, it seems to all be in violation of tax law, but some of it may not be actionable anymore (from a fed tax perspective). However, there may be other avenues to attack it via state law.

I'm no expert on non-profits and charities in the US, but in Canada the thing that would have any charity in an anxious knot over this would be the likelihood of losing the "charitable organization" designation, which would basically mean that the charity can no longer effectively fundraise, give out tax receipts for donations, etc. Beyond the impact on Trump personally, which is where I've seen most of the discussion, could this prompt any kind of sanction or have repercussions for the Trump Foundation?
posted by nubs at 12:29 PM on September 20, 2016

The thing about the Skittles/potato chip kerfuffle is that they're right (except for the whole racist connotation thingy for both items). The image doesn't matter to anything but his base. They neatly avoid (and media allows it) discussing the more egegious wrong: condemning all immigrants of a particular sort out of hand. The product used, whether it be Skittles, potato chips or even mushrooms matters only as a wink to the deplorables. Only the whole thought matters.
posted by Silverstone at 12:33 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

I feel like a feature of not being white is never seeing Trump support in my Facebook feed. I don't have those sorts of relatives.
posted by zutalors! at 12:36 PM on September 20, 2016 [15 favorites]

I feel like a feature of not being white is never seeing Trump support in my Facebook feed. I don't have those sorts of relatives.

I'm white, and don't see any Trump support in my feeds. But then I see plenty of Blue Lives Matter today, and I'm like....
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:38 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

TRUMP: She can bait me and I can bait her and we will see what happens.

TRUMP: She thinks she's a good baiter, but she stinks. I, on the other hand, am a master baiter. [fake]
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:39 PM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

TrumpFound isn't really a fundraising org (and it's a private foundation, not a public charity): it had a biggish donation from Vince and Linda McMahon, and it's been topped up by money from a ticket scalper, the production company for The Apprentice and that's mostly it.

It's just a large change jar for him to raid (and get others to replenish) whenever he wants to bullshit about charity and get something in return, whether it's a booking at Mar-a-Lago or a speaker invite.
posted by holgate at 12:39 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Mike Rosenberg on Twitter: Based on actual odds of getting killed by terrorist refugee, you'd need 10.8 billion skittles to find 3 killers
posted by jazon at 12:39 PM on September 20, 2016 [51 favorites]

I feel like a feature of not being white is never seeing Trump support in my Facebook feed.

Also, a feature of not being on Facebook.

Suck it, hipsters!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:40 PM on September 20, 2016 [17 favorites]

But then I see plenty of Blue Lives Matter today, and I'm like....

Yeah, I saw some of that re: catching the Chelsea/Flatiron bomber, from people who would never come to New York because we're terrible rude liberal people here.
posted by zutalors! at 12:41 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

On your way to the camps, I just want you to know...

Anyway, I want you to know that I needed to express my frustration with the political system and with the choices we were presented with by the corporate oligarchy and it’s not my fault you’ve been imprisoned. You likely should have been more careful. I know they banned birth control in your state, but maybe you should have ordered some online from Canada, you know? Or just not had sex. I mean, I’m as sex-positive as the next guy, but you knew the potential consequences.

Hyperbolic, yes, but potentially effective for your cis-het white male Johnson/Stein voting friends who have to stick to their "principles".
posted by Sophie1 at 12:44 PM on September 20, 2016 [17 favorites]

Beyond the impact on Trump personally, which is where I've seen most of the discussion, could this prompt any kind of sanction or have repercussions for the Trump Foundation?

Yes, they could have the private foundation status involuntarily terminated -- it requires willful repeated acts or one willful and flagrant act on behalf of the foundation in a way that results in the various excise/penalty taxes being imposed (even if the taxes are imposed on other parties) or ongoing failure to correct the actions; there's a termination tax under 507(c). Note that it's a rarely-used mechanism, and there are ways around the termination tax in the event it is used. He isn't even putting in his own money anymore, so I'm not sure how much he actually uses the foundation other than as a 'small' slush fund. But it could conceivably mess up their estate tax planning (assuming DJT's estate would be above the estate tax threshold and not insolvent).
posted by melissasaurus at 12:45 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sometimes I go read the comments on Hillary's posts and just block away like it's bubble wrap popping.

There's some kind of observation possible here about how much work it takes us all to maintain our own personal safe-space bubbles in the face of an increasingly nasty world, or something, but I'm all out of the necessary emotional energy and probably don't have enough tact to make it carefully, anyway.

In other words, friends, I just woke up. Any whisky left?
posted by rokusan at 12:45 PM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Ah, whiskey and cornflakes, breakfast of champions.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 12:47 PM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

BuzzFeed: 13 Times Donald Trump Was Not The First To Campaign In Front Of A Plane

Time: Donald Trump Called Debate Moderator Lester Holt a Democrat. He’s Actually a Republican.

New York State voter registration documents show that Holt has been a registered Republican in the state since 2003.

Trump’s comments to Fox News’ Bill O’Reilly, which were offered without any evidence to support the claim, are part of a time-honored tradition of alleging moderator bias and expectations-setting before a presidential debate.

“By the way, Lester is a Democrat. It’s a phony system. They are all Democrats. It’s a very unfair system,” Trump said of the debate moderators.

[my bold]

Geez all of them? All the chosen moderators, even the guy from FOX? Or does he mean all the TV news personalities? Like if you want to work in news you have to be a Democrat.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:49 PM on September 20, 2016 [12 favorites]

There's some kind of observation possible here about how much work it takes us all to maintain our own personal safe-space bubbles in the face of an increasingly nasty world, or something, but I'm all out of the necessary emotional energy and probably don't have enough tact to make it carefully, anyway.

The sort of hyperbolic extremist shit you see in HRC comments isn't something you block to achieve the level of safe space, it's what you block to maintain the minimal level of courtesy you'd expect in a traditional gang turf beef or perhaps a preschool full of meth-doped toddlers.
posted by phearlez at 12:50 PM on September 20, 2016 [11 favorites]

Oh whoops, my bad. I didn't finish reading the article-- turns out Chris Wallace from FOX IS a registered Democrat.

which he has explained as a matter of pragmatism as a resident of Democrat-dominated Washington, D.C. Public records searches for the remaining debate moderators returned no partisan affiliation.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:52 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

“By the way, Lester is a Democrat [false]. It’s a phony system. They are all Democrats. It’s a very unfair system,” Trump said of the debate moderators.

Wow, Trump is spinning hard to lower expectations. It's almost as if deep down he expects to lose the debates.
posted by Gelatin at 12:53 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

So, on your way to the camps, I want you to know that I just couldn’t get myself to vote for that woman because I hated everything about her. I’m sorry you’re going to have to live in a detention center for a while, but her voice, you’ll have to agree, is really irritating. Hopefully they let you out in two to three years when we figure this all out, like he promised.
[...]In a way, I think we can agree that I was taking a brave stand, just like you were taking a brave stand by refusing to bomb that village.
[...]Despite that, I want you to know that yes, I get it. Your kid is dead, and that’s a tragedy. But we should have more choices in our political campaigns. And maybe in four or eight or twelve years, we’ll have better candidates and we can all vote for someone we really believe in.

Well, except for your son. Sorry about that.

Holy shit. Brutal.
posted by Justinian at 12:53 PM on September 20, 2016 [25 favorites]

The other day on Facebook a FOAF told me "I hope the upcoming civil war is unkind to you and yours" because I correctly stated that we had previously deported US citizens as part of Operation Wetback. So yeah, civility.
posted by 0xFCAF at 12:53 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Although I didn't see the part about "I really thought the rest of you would be able to stop Trump while I kept my lily white conscience clean" like we saw earlier in this thread.
posted by Justinian at 12:54 PM on September 20, 2016 [12 favorites]

I said it in a previous thread, but two previous employers (hence the previous) had 'Foundations'. They used them as pay to play with potential business partners or politicians who wanted to curry favor with them (both are attorneys with a sizable media presence) and were cheap assholes who would present checks from their "Foundation" and always make sure the check was given as a photo op. And that their publicist got it widely distributed.
After the first one I was surprised to find a second one and it's no surprise to me how this is playing out.
posted by readery at 12:55 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

“By the way, Lester is a Democrat. It’s a phony system. They are all Democrats. It’s a very unfair system,” Trump said of the debate moderators.

Geez all of them? All the chosen moderators, even the guy from FOX? Or does he mean all the TV news personalities?

Maybe he means all African-Americans.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:55 PM on September 20, 2016 [10 favorites]

On the news this morning I saw a clip of Trump complaining that the bombing suspect in custody was going to get medical care for his injuries. And probably a lawyer, too! And a TRIAL.

Is it possible to just run out of the chemicals that sustain anger? I feel like I'm reaching that point.
posted by kythuen at 1:01 PM on September 20, 2016 [26 favorites]

Is it possible to just run out of the chemicals that sustain anger?

Trump's example suggests that the answer is no.

Or at least, not yet.
posted by Gelatin at 1:02 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah I've just been avoiding FB except for "Hey, Happy Birthday" messages these last few months.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 1:04 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Is it possible to just run out of the chemicals that sustain anger? I feel like I'm reaching that point.

Well, it's part and parcel of the run on "Surely this"es and the great shortage of "Can't even"s of 2016.

Now I look at a headline that says "Donald Trump used $258,000 from his charity for legal settlements" and I just shrug - of course he did, and of course it won't matter in this bizzaro-world campaign season.
posted by RedOrGreen at 1:05 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

In addition to being a strong message in its own right, it shows how powerful the simple act of making captions a stylistic element of her ads is.

Clinton's campaign sent out a survey a while ago and the demographics question for gender had a free-form text box (contrast to the M/F radio buttons on the Trump survey I looked at). Most folks may not even notice a design decision like that but for some people it's the difference between wincing at yet another micro aggression vs feeling validated and included. For lots of people the choice of which input method to use on a form is a trivial, unimportant detail but as Clinton said in her DNC speech "it's not just a detail if it's your kid, if it's your family. It's a big deal. And it should be a big deal to your president, too." Details matter. Inclusion matters. Accessibility matters. Clinton has shown her commitment to these issues not just in big, public, ways like her policies and speeches but also in small, mostly invisible ways and it makes that message so much more powerful.
posted by metaphorever at 1:05 PM on September 20, 2016 [61 favorites]

Good summary of how Fox has inserted itself into the Republican Party.

Hey, you break it, you buy it.
posted by rokusan at 1:06 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Ah, whiskey and cornflakes, breakfast of champions.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 2:47 PM on September 20

Perfectly eponysterical for this campaign season.

(Also, yesterday I accidentally poured Bailey's coffee creamer onto my cereal instead of milk, and I briefly wondered if I'd been possessed by the ghost of Reince Priebus. Maybe his conscience has fled his body out of self-preservation.)
posted by Salieri at 1:08 PM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

BuzzFeed: 13 Times Donald Trump Was Not The First To Campaign In Front Of A Plane

This is where I walk back my complaints about listicles.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:10 PM on September 20, 2016 [16 favorites]

Clinton is down to 57% to win at 538, which is her lowest point of the campaign. I guess some of my cortisol receptors came online because the JCPL is back up to HIGH!
posted by Justinian at 1:28 PM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

Ignore 538.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:28 PM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

I just now noticed that Clinton calls out white people in her Facebook comment on Terence Crutcher. "And so maybe I can, by speaking directly to white people, say, look, this is not who we are."

That's awesome! Idiots in the comments are going bananas.
posted by zutalors! at 1:30 PM on September 20, 2016 [32 favorites]

kirkaracha: TRUMP: She can bait me and I can bait her and we will see what happens.

O'REILLY: Would you say you are a master of baiting?

TRUMP: Yes, I am great, I am a master baiter

O'REILLY: *Laughs behind his hand*

TRUMP: What? Do I have something in my hair- oh, Bill, you are a cut-up!

O'REILLY: Sorry, Donald, you baited me and I took that bait. You really are a master.

BOTH: *Laughing together*

*Scene*

[FAKE]
posted by filthy light thief at 1:30 PM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Reagan flew Commercial? What a piker.

VTX: "I don't understand how knowing more about guns makes people less supportive of restrictions. I would think that the more you know about them and how they perform, the more you'd want to get rid of all of them and/or put HEAVY restrictions on their use."

It probably goes the other way. The people who know the most about guns are the people who have the most guns and therefor generally are going to want less restriction.

The guy who had his skittles image stolen still has it up on Flickr. You can favourite there if you feel like giving him some support.
posted by Mitheral at 1:30 PM on September 20, 2016

Update: After a long derail through emailghazi and benghaservergate, I managed to revert the discussion back to Fahrentholds article and landed on 'Trump was a private citizen, Hillary was in public office' to which I obviously replied that it was still wrong, which brought us to 'Nothing Trump did was wrong because nothing has been proven' which required olympian levels of restraint not to say 'just like Clinton, huh?' and I settled for a well actually in the form of the illegal payment to Pam Bondi through the foundation. I think my work is done for the day...
posted by TwoWordReview at 1:30 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think we can do better than Skittles for our junk food analogies. Let's say that this Twinkie represents the normal number of Syrians in the New York area...
posted by jackbishop at 1:40 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ignore 538.

Sadly, Sam Wang also has Clinton to win down to 71% (random drift), 81% (Bayesian). I was much happier when it was 95%. I expected that the polls would tighten on our way to November, making it very uncomfortable emotionally (but with an eventual Clinton victory). But this is not very fun. Please please please let the debates be a bloodbath of humiliation for this orange asshole.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:40 PM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

posted by Existential Dread

please make fewer eponysadical comments thanks
posted by zutalors! at 1:41 PM on September 20, 2016 [39 favorites]

we could probably make guns in America safer by requiring full automatic mode

Unfortunately that's not how it turned out at the touristy shooting range near Las Vegas.
posted by achrise at 1:42 PM on September 20, 2016

Based on actual odds of getting killed by terrorist refugee, you'd need 10.8 billion skittles to find 3 killers

Vox has a closer look and a graphic or two to illustrate that.
posted by achrise at 1:47 PM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

While we can't ignore 538 (that's what the Republicans did last time), we can keep working on getting out the vote and promoting Clinton. We shouldn't relax when she's ahead, we shouldn't panic when she's less ahead. She's going to win this.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:48 PM on September 20, 2016 [10 favorites]

It's official-ish, not Kennedy rumor:

Former President George H.W. Bush told a room of roughly 40 people Monday that he would vote for Hillary Clinton in November, according to sources close to Bush -- an extraordinary rebuke of his own party's nominee.
posted by chris24 at 1:48 PM on September 20, 2016 [53 favorites]

posted by Existential Dread

please make fewer eponysadical comments thanks

I DON'T KNOW HOW

searches for a fiver
posted by Existential Dread at 1:50 PM on September 20, 2016 [15 favorites]

Former President George H.W. Bush told a room of roughly 40 people Monday that he would vote for Hillary Clinton in November, according to sources close to Bush -- an extraordinary rebuke of his own party's nominee.


DAAAAAAMN. That is AWESOME.
posted by Sophie1 at 1:51 PM on September 20, 2016 [20 favorites]

"But sources close to Bush tell CNN that he shared his plans with board members of the bipartisan Points of Light Foundation during what he believed was a private gathering Monday in Kennebunkport, Maine." Pretty uncool. (My emphasis.)
posted by kirkaracha at 1:53 PM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

a private gathering

Is there any such thing anymore? It would be naive of him to think so.
posted by mochapickle at 1:55 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

But the optics of Clinton's political opponent getting prosecuted, even for sloppy fraud committed long before the election for which investigators have him dead to rights, would be terrible. (And would the Republican media establishment respect the evidence, or would they scream "political prisoner?") If memory serves me correctly, some of the earlier threads speculated that part of Trump's motivation for running was as a dodge from his looming legal issues.

Surely a loophole the size of "well they ran for President so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ " can't be allowed to stand as a de facto immunity card? I would imagine we should be able to get some kind of independent special prosecutor to oversee the investigation. Ideally a conservative, someone with experience as a federal prosecutor, someone known to be a staunch Republican and it would be even better if they were someone who had actually been openly supporting Trump from early on...

Hey Governor C., how would you like to get back some semblance of dignity? Assuming you're not in prison yourself for corruption by that time...
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:56 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Mod note: One deleted; I get where it's coming from but let's not make ironic ultra gross comments about rape; we can make the point without that.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:56 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Has Jeb! stuck the knife into Trump yet or is he waiting for the point of maximum effect?

I suspect Romney will attempt at least one more takedown attempt because what is Reince going to do?
posted by vuron at 1:56 PM on September 20, 2016

Former President George H.W. Bush told a room of roughly 40 people Monday that he would vote for Hillary Clinton in November, according to sources close to Bush -- an extraordinary rebuke of his own party's nominee.

Let this be the beginning. Please, I need it to be.
posted by cashman at 1:56 PM on September 20, 2016 [16 favorites]

Sadly I fear some people will take this as "see? She's actually a moderate Republican!" fodder. Rather than simply a massive rebuke of Trump's extremism.
posted by Justinian at 1:58 PM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

Fivethirtyeight thinks that Clinton has a 39% chance of winning if she loses Iowa. Or a 33% chance of winning if she loses Ohio. Or a 28% chance of winning if she loses Florida. If you've been following the polls over the past three weeks, you would have noticed that she's currently behind in all three of those but still safely over 270 votes thanks to CO, NM, WI, MI, and VA.

There was a long-winded argument in the last thread about whether aggregators should assume states' eventual voting is more correlated than the polls already tell us. Kind of esoteric - the main upshot is that if you assume they're not correlated, you have less noise around your prediction. That's part of why PEC has always had a bit higher chance of Clinton winning than the other models - he assumes zero correlation.

This new article from Fivethirtyeight shows the problems with assuming states are more correlated than what polls already capture. They have to rely on past voting data to estimate how correlated they are. In the past, Iowa presumably was a good predictor of how Wisconsin and Minnesota would vote; and Ohio was a good indicator of how Pennsylvania and Michigan would vote. So now that Iowa's likely Republican, that's lowering the odds of a Clinton victory. Now that Ohio's leaning Republican, that's changing their estimates about how Pennsylvania and Michigan will go. The flip side is also wacky - they give Trump a 10% chance of losing if he wins Minnesota. Does that pass the smell test?

The results in that article are a real head scratcher, and they should make a good modeler question whether their model is actually doing what it's supposed to do.
posted by one_bean at 1:58 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Bush thing is a) not confirmed and b) already discussed to death in this thread.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:59 PM on September 20, 2016

Sadly I fear some people will take this as "see? She's actually a moderate Republican!" fodder. Rather than simply a massive rebuke of Trump's extremism.

Or even a "This is how entrenched Washington is in supporting insiders! Can you believe it?"

I hope it isn't.
posted by mochapickle at 2:00 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Bush thing is a) not confirmed and b) already discussed to death in this thread.

This is a new report.
posted by cashman at 2:00 PM on September 20, 2016 [11 favorites]

In other election news: Norwegian Black Metal Artist Elected to Local Office Against His Will:

In an interview with the music website CLRVYNT, Fenriz (birth name Gylve Nagell) explained that he reluctantly accepted an offer from Norway's Liberal Party to stand in the local election, despite having absolutely no interest in winning office. "Basically, they called and asked if I wanted to be on the list" of backup representatives, he told CLRVYNT. "I said yeah, thinking I would be like 18th on the list and I wouldn't really have to do anything."

Perhaps concerned that apathy and total lack of experience wouldn't be sufficient to thwart his chances, Fenriz then ran an outreach campaign consisting entirely of posters with him and his cat accompanied by a plea that people not support him.

Unfortunately for this founding father of Norwegian black metal, the plan backfired spectacularly. The residents of Kolbotn were apparently so taken with his self-denying attitude that they promptly voted him into office, much to Fenriz's chagrin. "I'm not too pleased about it. It's boring," he said. "There's not a lot of money in that, either, I can tell you!"

If you think this sounds like a TV plot, Fenriz says:

As time goes on, you get closer and closer to Larry David, I’m thinking. For me, when I watch Curb Your Enthusiasm, it’s like looking into a crystal ball.

posted by zachlipton at 2:01 PM on September 20, 2016 [28 favorites]

Fivethirtyeight thinks that Clinton has a 39% chance of winning if she loses Iowa.

That's not good, because I think it's pretty likely that she's going to lose Iowa. There are some fairly specific factors at work here, such as that powerful Republicans united pretty early and enthusiastically around Trump, and he's got a better ground game here than he does elsewhere.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:01 PM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Bush thing is a) not confirmed and b) already discussed to death in this thread.

Hence official-ish. And the earlier discussion was on a earlier different report that was one person, Kathleen Hartington Kennedy Townsend, saying he'd told her. Now it's him telling a group and confirmed by multiple sources close to Bush.
posted by chris24 at 2:02 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

The comments I've seen from the deplorables about HW Bush are that he's a traitor, a globalist (*shrug* must be some kind of insult), and as proof that they're both (Clinton and Bush) in some secret elite establishment.
posted by erisfree at 2:02 PM on September 20, 2016

Trump is speaking in Chester PA tomorrow. A student in class said, "I hope he gets shot"
And I was all *hey now* and then she said, "I don't want him to be killed, I want somebody to shoot and miss" which somehow further confused me.
posted by angrycat at 2:02 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Given the poll today showing a pure tie in Maine.... I see a VERY plausible map which results in a 269-269 tie which would be a disaster of unmitigated proportions. Like... very plausible to the point it scares me.

If Clinton wins Florida all that goes out the window of course. Winning Florida in November would make things so much less stressful.
posted by Justinian at 2:02 PM on September 20, 2016

Oh wait! I forgot that even if Trump takes Maine as a whole Clinton would carry 1 electoral vote from winning a congressional district! That would make the results 270-268!

Which would be hilarity.
posted by Justinian at 2:04 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

"But sources close to Bush tell CNN that he shared his plans with board members of the bipartisan Points of Light Foundation during what he believed was a private gathering Monday in Kennebunkport, Maine." Pretty uncool.

Man, screw that! As far as I'm concerned, any prominent Republican who feels the same way has a moral responsibility to say so publicly, and if they refuse to say it in public but still say it in private, then anyone who hears it has a moral responsibility to bring it to the public's attention. This isn't like outing him for being gay or something.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:04 PM on September 20, 2016 [32 favorites]

Justinian's 270-to-268 Hillarity map.
posted by Justinian at 2:05 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think we're past the point where endorsements or non-endorsements matter to the undecided voters. What, they couldn't decide until they heard from Poppy Bush? I doubt it would matter even if W or Romney or Paul Ryan came out to campaign for Hillary - in fact, that would probably drive away more of the far left than it would bring in at the center.

I think for better or worse, the debates are what will move the needle, if the needle is to be moved at all. Or the news, maaaaybe, with a Trump shell-shocker revelation. Not holding my breath on that one.

(And speaking of debates, please help?)
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:06 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

sharing your super secret vote with a roomful of forty people is a good way to get it out there without making it look real obvious like you're trying to get it out there
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:06 PM on September 20, 2016 [46 favorites]

Ah, another email from Bernie wanting $2.70 for "10 local candidates who need our help". It's like the disappointment that keeps on disappointing. :/
posted by buzzman at 2:07 PM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

If Clinton wins Florida all that goes out the window of course.

On this date in 2012, Obama was trailing by 2 points in RCP's Florida average. He basically trailed in polls until he won it. Clinton is currently tied after leading most of the time.
posted by chris24 at 2:09 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

"But sources close to Bush tell CNN that he shared his plans with board members of the bipartisan Points of Light Foundation during what he believed was a private gathering Monday in Kennebunkport, Maine." Pretty uncool. (My emphasis.)

I'm officially Not Even Slightly Morally Qualmed about this; if a former President is so gravely concerned about their party's nominee that they're voting for the other candidate, I think they have a duty to say so publicly.

Also:

Carter
Bush 41
Clinton 42
Obama
Bush 43

We're waiting, Georgie-boy. At least do it to stick up for your little bro.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:10 PM on September 20, 2016 [24 favorites]

That's not good, because I think it's pretty likely that she's going to lose Iowa. There are some fairly specific factors at work here, such as that powerful Republicans united pretty early and enthusiastically around Trump, and he's got a better ground game here than he does elsewhere

No, it's not good - but it's not good because 538's model is over-determined, not because Clinton really only has a 39% chance of winning if she loses Iowa. That's not realistic for all the reasons you state - Trump is doing disproportionately well in Iowa this year. 538 takes that and assumes it tells us something about how Trump is doing in Wisconsin and Minnesota and Florida. It doesn't. All it tells us is he has better support in Iowa than Republicans did in previous elections. Clinton has 354 plausible paths to victory if Trump wins Iowa (scroll down and click on "Rep" under Iowa).
posted by one_bean at 2:11 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

If some asshole like Trump treated my brother like that I'd be out campaigning for his opponent every single day. Nobody treats my brother like a giant asshole except me.
posted by Justinian at 2:11 PM on September 20, 2016 [53 favorites]

Back in February, this was a reminder of old comments about how Barbara was the wartime consigliere/hammer-dropper of the Bush family.

So no, I'm not surprised by HW's comments, or his making-a-public-statement-without-making-a-public-statement way of going about it.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:18 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Mike Rosenberg on Twitter: Based on actual odds of getting killed by terrorist refugee, you'd need 10.8 billion skittles to find 3 killers

Approx. 1/2500 Americans is a murderer. Meaning that about 127,500 Americans are murderers. Meaning that we should throw the whole 320 million of them out, because a few of them are scary/bad/whatever?

I mean, I just really don't even begin to understand this. Given any large population, a small number will be "bad" for whatever definition of bad you choose.

I guess I just really don't see the point.

RE: 10.8 billion skittles, the funny thing is that if you were to track down 10.8 billion people and feed each of them a skittle, you probably would have 3 deaths or so. One person would choke to death on it, one would drop it & step on it, the slip resulting in a fatal concussion, one would have an allergic reaction to Green Food Coloring #38 and die of anaphylactic shock, etc. 10.8 billion is a LOT of samples and a lot of wild and wacky things would happen over the course of consuming 10.8 billion skittles.

I guess if I'm a Trumpist the moral I should pull out of this is that once is a while bad things happen in the world, and therefore I should be scared all the time and vote Trump?
posted by flug at 2:19 PM on September 20, 2016 [13 favorites]

giving people -- particularly committed, already-very-decided, straight-ticket voters moral permission to reverse their decision to vote (R) in November by giving them an avenue to see themselves as 'staying Republican' despite not voting for Trump

And giving the media further cues to continue their (apparent) overdue pivot to treating the Trump candidacy as the terrifying catastrophe that it is.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:22 PM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

CNN listicle: Things that Donald Trump cannot take credit for, including a key moment in Lady Gaga's career.
posted by ZeusHumms at 2:24 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Getting into an argument with a BoBer on Facebook. Why do I do this to my blood pressure???!
posted by peacheater at 2:27 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

RE: 10.8 billion skittles, the funny thing is that if you were to track down 10.8 billion people and feed each of them a skittle, you probably would have 3 deaths or so

I imagine you would in fact be one of those deaths, since you'd come in contact with literally all the infectious diseases.
posted by zachlipton at 2:31 PM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

I mean, I just really don't even begin to understand this. Given any large population, a small number will be "bad" for whatever definition of bad you choose. I guess I just really don't see the point.

They're trying to justify ethnic cleansing on the basis of Six Sigma. Their deportation force, that will let 'the good ones' stay, is basically implementing the Vitality Curve. This is what it looks like when the government "is run like a business."
posted by melissasaurus at 2:31 PM on September 20, 2016 [10 favorites]

Someone is trying to argue that the arms deals were proportionate to the amount donated to the Clinton Foundation - anyone have a counter to this?
posted by peacheater at 2:33 PM on September 20, 2016

The Atlantic: Donald Trump Jr. Is His Father's Id
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:33 PM on September 20, 2016

Again, swap in "Jews" for everything Trump and Co says about refugees, Muslims and immigrants it's immediately clear what they're doing.
posted by chris24 at 2:33 PM on September 20, 2016 [24 favorites]

Someone is trying to argue that the arms deals were proportionate to the amount donated to the Clinton Foundation - anyone have a counter to this?

Politifact gives the amounts and countries that donated. Other than NATO countries and Australia, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are the 2 big ones. Needless to say, the US has been selling both of them arms, from R and D presidencies, for decades, regardless of any CF work.
posted by chris24 at 2:37 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Why would I need to swap in "Jews" when it's been clear that Trump has been running a Make America White Again campaign since day one.

What's weird is that he hasn't gone all-in on bashing African-Americans because let's be honest the African-American community isn't voting for him anyway but maybe that level of overt racism is unneeded when you can just double down on immigrants and Muslims.
posted by vuron at 2:38 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

I just realized that John Derbyshire must be kicking himself for going full tilt white power a few years too early
posted by theodolite at 2:39 PM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Why would I need to swap in "Jews" when it's been clear that Trump has been running a Make America White Again campaign since day one.

Clear to us, but maybe not to many. When you replace the current scapegoat of the week with something historical that everybody is familiar with, it probably hits home more.
posted by chris24 at 2:41 PM on September 20, 2016

Heh. Great response to the Skittles tweet.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:41 PM on September 20, 2016 [23 favorites]

The Atlantic: Donald Trump Jr. Is His Father's Id

Wait, what? I thought The Donald was all id already? Maybe Jr. is the id overflow?
posted by nubs at 2:41 PM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

vuron do you not remember that BLACK ON WHITE CRIME = 10000% chart?
posted by theodolite at 2:42 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

All of which skirts the disquieting notion that there are many voters who realize that comparison can be made, and who are happy about it.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 2:42 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

yeah because you really see a difference a superego makes in Donald the elder
posted by angrycat at 2:44 PM on September 20, 2016

This is not the thread (or maybe the website) for it, but the among-the-largest donations to the Clinton Foundation from the governments of Australia and Norway tweaked me as the oddest, and seem to be the subject of much head-scratching in the press reporting from those nations, too.

(But yeah, naturally omigod Saudi Arabia!!!11! eats up all the oxygen in most discussions.)
posted by rokusan at 2:53 PM on September 20, 2016

If Clinton wins Florida all that goes out the window of course.

GOP megadonor pledges $2M to register Florida Latinos to help beat Trump.
posted by Doktor Zed at 2:53 PM on September 20, 2016 [39 favorites]

What are the odds Trump faces a criminal investigation over his charity/tax dodge?
posted by humanfont at 2:54 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've been listening to political podcasts. Not one has mentioned sexism in the campaign and its effects. Are there any that talk about sexism?
posted by OmieWise at 2:55 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

In his measured way, Josh Marshall tries to calm the JCPL.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:01 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

NYTimes: Sheldon Adelson Focuses on Congressional Races, Despite Donald Trump’s Pleas

The Las Vegas billionaire Sheldon G. Adelson is shifting tens of millions of dollars into groups backing congressional Republicans despite months of entreaties from allies of Donald J. Trump, according to several Republicans with knowledge of Mr. Adelson’s giving, dealing a major setback to Mr. Trump’s efforts to rally deep-pocketed Republican givers.

posted by peeedro at 3:05 PM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Adelson is too focused on his plan to bring the Oakland Raiders to Las Vegas right now to worry about something as inconsequential as the Presidential election.
posted by stolyarova at 3:08 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

There is no calming the JCPL, there is only enduring it.
posted by Justinian at 3:10 PM on September 20, 2016 [26 favorites]

I don't know about those donations specifically, but the Clinton Foundation, unlike the Trump Foundation, does actual development work. State intl-aid agencies occasionally do everything from scratch, but they often prefer to fund organizations that already have local contacts and projects underway. Earlier this year I worked on a study evaluating Clinton-organized farmer cooperatives in Rwanda - they really exist. I've seen them. It's bog-standard NGO stuff.
posted by theodolite at 3:11 PM on September 20, 2016 [14 favorites]

I would like to see everyone stop referring to the GOP as the GOP, or the Republican party, and start referring to it as the Party of Trump, or the Trump Party, or whatever.

Because if it continues to exist in any form, that's what it will be. And, regardless of the election's outcome, that's not how they'll want us to think of them. If he loses, you can bet your ass that every "mainstream" GOPer who threw aside whatever flimsy remnant of principles they may have had in order to lick his boots will IMMEDiately begin rewriting history to pretend they never did that. If we wins, he'll fuck something up so egregiously that, following his impeachment or resignation (or arrest and trial for war crimes following international intervention to restabilize the U.S.), the same thing will happen.

We can never, ever let the Party of Trump off the hook for selling its soul as it has. Labels matter. Read your Lakoff. Imposed branding. Party of Trump.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:14 PM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

Justinian's 270-to-268 Hillarity map.

There's a no-longer-implausible scenario for 269-269 if Trump can pull Wisconsin instead of Nevada.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:16 PM on September 20, 2016

Trump campaign reporters out of motorcade

“We have told the campaign that if they are truly committed to transparency than they should place the pool on Trump’s plane so it is a truly protective pool. They have not been responsive to that request.”

Politico on Monday said the Trump campaign was putting journalists in its motorcade. Reporters in the press pool would also follow Trump’s plane in a “chase” aircraft that would shadow it more closely.

The press pool's leaders, however, said Trump’s campaign told them the Secret Service rejected the plan.

The Secret Service advised Trump’s camp that it is stretched too thin amid “a heightened state of security” to keep the press pool’s plane safe.

The press pool will now have to deal with normal traffic while covering the billionaire, Politico said, increasing the chances that reporters may arrive late or miss Trump’s campaign events.

posted by melissasaurus at 3:18 PM on September 20, 2016 [10 favorites]

Trump dropkicks that part of the social contract right out the window on a daily basis. You can't just keep going la la la we're going to do what we've always done here la la la. He's doing something that no one has done before because everyone just assumed that you couldn't do it. Turns out, apparently you can and the press will just stroke their beards and navelgaze about objectivity.

As a note, this is exactly what abusers do. They violate the social contract, they do things normal people just don't do, and their victims often just don't know how to respond because it's so bizarre. And then the gaslighting kicks in and they tell their victims "What are you talking about? This is totally normal? You're making it up, exaggerating it. You're imagining things." And it's that baffled self-questioning and instinct to preserve the peace and pretend everything is normal that keeps people in abusive relationships. And that's pretty much exactly what's happened with Trump and the media.
posted by threeturtles at 3:19 PM on September 20, 2016 [70 favorites]

Dubya couldn't get Wisconsin. I don't see why Trump would.
posted by asteria at 3:20 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hannity stars in Trump campaign video, apparently didn't give Fox a heads up
posted by PenDevil at 3:22 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

JCPL? Jesus Christ Panic Level?
posted by numaner at 3:25 PM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

TD Strange: I think that map ends up 270-268 for Trump. Maine is going to split its EVs this year,I gar-aun-tee it.
posted by Justinian at 3:25 PM on September 20, 2016

Hannity stars in Trump campaign video, apparently didn't give Fox a heads up

Ted Nugent trigger warning.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:27 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

JCPL? Jesus Christ Panic Level?

i've been wondering too. that was also the best i could come up with.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:29 PM on September 20, 2016

270-268 is about the worst I could see Clinton doing without losing. I think Clinton will be about 291 picking up NM, CO, OH, PA, VA with neither Maine nor Nebraska splitting.
posted by asteria at 3:31 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

it started here, referencing Justinian and his Current Panic Level, sorry for the derail!
posted by numaner at 3:32 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Lest you thought that there was any chance that tomorrow's Trump town hall with Sean Hannity (allegedly addressing "African-American concerns") might have a shred of journalistic integrity involved.
posted by zachlipton at 3:32 PM on September 20, 2016

Trump in NC: "Our African American communities are in the worse shape they've ever been... Ever. Ever. Ever."

The rare triple l̶i̶n̶d̶y̶ ever. Outreach!
posted by chris24 at 3:35 PM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

There is no calming the JCPL, there is only enduring it.

I think it's time you followed some advice written by a wise MeFite almost four years ago:

I gotta stop paying attention to politics for a few weeks or I'm going to start drinking heavily.
posted to MetaFilter by Justinian at 8:34 PM on October 3, 2012

Sorry! I've been re-reading some past election threads (for solace) and I couldn't help but notice the pattern :)
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:36 PM on September 20, 2016 [30 favorites]

I honestly think what's hurting Hillary right now is that she's been taking the bait and going negative. Her numbers surged when she was pushing her own positives. She should keep doing that and stop feeding the trolls.

He is Beetlejuice. Stop saying his name.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:36 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump: "I don't care" if manufacturers leave, because we'll "make a fortune" from the 35% tariff we slap on them if they do.

Holy fuck the stupidity.
posted by chris24 at 3:37 PM on September 20, 2016 [29 favorites]

Sorry! I've been re-reading some past election threads (for solace) and I couldn't help but notice the pattern :)

Half of that sentence came true. Half. Not the first half.
posted by Justinian at 3:37 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

so I do mean shit to my family, like when I was five I told my younger brother that if he vomited he'd have to eat it, and I've told here the story of how my brother and I almost killed my mother by tricking her into watch the original The Blair Witch Project

So reading despairing posts of people knowing people supporting Trump and/or hating HRC for undefined reasons, I thought I could like for a day convince certain members of my family that I'm supporting Trump. Probably I'd have to say I've decided to accelerate the revolution or some shit, because I don't know how to convincingly fake the other extreme.

But, no, actually, I mean telling a wee child that if he vomited he'd have to eat it up, that's less mean. I have my limits.
posted by angrycat at 3:38 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hannity stars in Trump campaign video, apparently didn't give Fox a heads up

Oh, this video is amazing. It's all: Hunting! Guns! Nafta! Guns! Border security! Guns! Hunting! Guns guns guns! Nugent! Freedom! Guns! Hannity!

Also there is a claim that Clinton wants to sell off public lands to the highest bidder. Which, no.
posted by mochapickle at 3:40 PM on September 20, 2016

In the Jimmy Fallon interview she said she took time to reflect while she was home sick and decided to leave aside the name-calling and whatnot. That was probably the plan all along. Somebody upthread (or previous thread) who was phonebanking said something about the campaign not having entered the persuasion phase yet. It sounds like the strategy was to hit Trump hard on the negatives in the early part of the campaign and then pivot to the positive vision in the run-up to the election. Seems like a good strategy.
posted by TwoWordReview at 3:41 PM on September 20, 2016 [10 favorites]

Trump: "I don't care" if manufacturers leave, because we'll "make a fortune" from the 35% tariff we slap on them if they do.

Which goes straight from the pockets of people buying the products to the Federal Government (and then straight to Trump's pocket, cha ching!)

TRUMP: RAISE PRICES 35%!!!
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:44 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Just when you think he can't physically possibly say something any dumber, you find out about the plan for Smoot-Hawley 2017. We're at the point where even my guy with the factory in Mexico is out of can't evens.
posted by feloniousmonk at 3:47 PM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

Also there is a claim that Clinton wants to sell off public lands to the highest bidder. Which, no.

wtf, isn't that a policy mainstay for western tea party Republicans?
posted by indubitable at 3:47 PM on September 20, 2016 [10 favorites]

wtf, isn't that a policy mainstay for western tea party Republicans?

Yup. I actually sputtered when I heard it.
posted by mochapickle at 3:49 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

wtf, isn't that a policy mainstay for western tea party Republicans?

No, they expect it be given to them for free.
posted by peeedro at 3:49 PM on September 20, 2016 [11 favorites]

According to Huffpost Pollster, Clinton is up 4.1% today, the exact same amount Obama was up on this date in 2012.
posted by chris24 at 3:52 PM on September 20, 2016 [14 favorites]

One nice tidbit in Fahrenthold's story is the part where Trump screwed someone out of a million dollar prize at a golf tournament and then used his shady "charity" foundation to pay the penalty after the golfer sued.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:52 PM on September 20, 2016 [20 favorites]

No, they expect for it to be given to them for free.

Yeah, and if you hit one of their "free range" cows on the public expressway, you're supposed to pay for it.
posted by valkane at 3:54 PM on September 20, 2016

I feel like a feature of not being white is never seeing Trump support in my Facebook feed.

I'm white and I have never seen Trump support in my feed. I just get a lot of Bernie Bros and Libertarians. So I guess that's better? I only run into Trump supporters on other people's FB posts. Occasionally someone I know posts something about how climate change isn't real or something and I sigh heavily.

I recently went through and re-followed some folks I had unfollowed during the primary. Yeah, that wasn't the best idea for my sanity. So I'm mostly posting ARE YOU INSANE TO VOTE THIRD PARTY stuff because seriously.
posted by threeturtles at 3:54 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

TRUMP: RAISE PRICES 35%!!!

What's so infuriating is that if a Democrat had the balls to suggest that the ticker would be rolling with it around the clock on Fox and CNN.
posted by Talez at 3:54 PM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

Someone canvased our house for Hillary today!
posted by drezdn at 3:56 PM on September 20, 2016 [16 favorites]

TRUMP: RAISE PRICES TAXES [to] 35%!!!
posted by zachlipton at 3:56 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Good point; that IS a 35% Sales Tax.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:58 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Can someone tell me how I can calm down and stop shaking? I can literally feel the tips of my ears burning after this argument I had on Facebook. What I find so infuriating is people who act like this election doesn't even matter, or that "everyone already knows that Trump is dumb", hence they can feel free to attack Clinton. I just don't understand people like that.
posted by peacheater at 4:01 PM on September 20, 2016 [15 favorites]

WSJ from yesterday: Trump Trade Plan Could Push U.S. into Recession, Study Says

"Imposing stiff tariffs on China and Mexico, as Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump has proposed, could push the U.S. into recession and cost 5 million U.S. jobs, according to a study by the Peterson Institute for International Economics."
posted by chris24 at 4:02 PM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

Yes and the fact is he sounds almost gleeful at the idea of people losing their jobs because "We" will make a lot of money. How is the person who lost their job going to make money? His job is going to be gone but the price of everything in WalMart went up 35%.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:02 PM on September 20, 2016 [22 favorites]

Could someone explain the point of national polling? It seems like a really weird thing to measure when recent Presidents have been elected without the popular vote.
posted by indubitable at 4:05 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

WSJ from yesterday: Trump Trade Plan Could Push U.S. into Recession, Study Says
If the WSJ says "recession", reality says "depression".

Of course, Trump will shatter the US Economy into a million shards... and he'll make money off it.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:05 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Has this been posted yet?
Trump: "There's nothing like doing things with other people's money" [real; today]
posted by melissasaurus at 4:06 PM on September 20, 2016 [30 favorites]

Could someone explain the point of national polling? It seems like a really weird thing to measure when recent Presidents have been elected without the popular vote.

It's like the Dow Jones. It gives you a vague idea of things, but anyone serious is going to be looking at other numbers.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:09 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

He's telling people everything that he is and believes, and somehow his supporters don't believe him.
posted by holgate at 4:10 PM on September 20, 2016 [19 favorites]

Could someone explain the point of national polling? It seems like a really weird thing to measure when recent Presidents have been elected without the popular vote.

GWB was elected while losing the popular vote by about one half of one percent. Before that the last case of this happening was 1888. So it functions as a very good proxy for the eventual winner.
posted by Justinian at 4:11 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oscar Brown Jr's daughter wants Donald Trump to stop reading her dad's 'Snake' lyrics at rallies
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:12 PM on September 20, 2016 [11 favorites]

GWB was elected while losing the popular vote by about one half of one percent.

And that one time was arguably not an instance when electoral college and popular vote should've diverged.
posted by chris24 at 4:13 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Could someone explain the point of national polling? It seems like a really weird thing to measure when recent Presidents have been elected without the popular vote.

You can get a reasonably accurate national poll if you reach 1,000 people or so, which requires a couple thousand calls. 50 state polls are trickier and therefore more expensive. The online pollsters have big panels and can pull off getting 10,000+ respondents more feasibly, though with the usual baggage that comes with online-only polls, plus some specific potential issues 538 discusses in that link.

It's also most likely that the popular vote winner will win the Presidency and that, if the electoral vote does differ from the popular vote, it will involve a very close national popular vote margin anyway.

More cynically, national polling is comparatively cheap and feeds the horserace narrative favored by the media organizations paying for the poll.
posted by zachlipton at 4:14 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

somehow his supporters don't believe him

They believe he'll just do it to others. Racism is a helluva drug.
posted by chris24 at 4:17 PM on September 20, 2016 [9 favorites]

Another good ad from Clinton, reaching out to disabled voters.

"You can leave this ad muted—there's nothing to hear."
posted by chris24 at 4:19 PM on September 20, 2016 [21 favorites]

270-268 is about the worst I could see Clinton doing without losing. I think Clinton will be about 291 picking up NM, CO, OH, PA, VA with neither Maine nor Nebraska splitting.

I have it 293-245 based on a complex formula of constantly refreshing RCP, cursing 538's idiotic numberwang based punditry, the pulse of this thread, and softly caressing a printout of David Plouffe while drinking bourbon.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:23 PM on September 20, 2016 [30 favorites]

Trump in NC: 'Our African American communities are in the worse shape they've ever been... Ever. Ever. Ever.'

Worse than the New York City draft riots? The Opelousas massacre? The Thibodaux massacre? Red Summer? The Tulsa race riot? The Watts riots? The riots after the MLK assassination? Worse than many other examples?

Worse than redlining, blockbusting, and other discriminatory real estate practices?

Overall, in the period from 1980–2000, residential segregation between the black and white population has decreased at a greater rate than other minority groups. However, the African American population, currently the second largest minority group in the United States, still experiences the greatest residential segregation compared to other minority groups.

There's a long way to go still, but "worst shape they've ever been" is pretty ignorant.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:25 PM on September 20, 2016 [16 favorites]

Oscar Brown Jr's daughter wants Donald Trump to stop reading her dad's 'Snake' lyrics at rallies

I'm afraid that song has been tainted forever. I'm familiar with it and I don't think I could ever listen to it again without thinking of Trump.



During his Bill O'Reilly interview Trump said about Clinton:

And then she has got a lot of baggage. I'll tell you what. She has been there a long time. And we need change in this country. I mean, she has been there, Bill. A long time. When I hear her talking about what she is planning to do, why hasn't she done it for the last 30 years?

What exactly was she supposed to do when she was First Lady of Arkansas? Or FLOTUS? Even as Senator and as Secretary of State it isn't like she had unlimited power to carry out her vision for a Better America. The way Trump puts it you would think she's been President already for 30 years and hasn't done squat. I guess what makes me angriest about this quote is that when she did try to do something as FLOTUS-- bring Universal Health Care to the United States-- the GOP slapped her down hard and called it unseemly for her to act as though she had been elected into office and not her husband. So it was made very clear to her that as First Lady she was to have zero power and influence to do anything.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:29 PM on September 20, 2016 [32 favorites]

And Bill O'Fuckface just let it pass.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:31 PM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Joe Scarborough is apparently coming full circle.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:32 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm afraid that song has been tainted forever. I'm familiar with it and I don't think I could ever listen to it again without thinking of Trump.

The thing is, in so doing, Trump is reciting the lyrics to a song about himself.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:34 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

These have all been linked upthread, but The Mary Sue has a handy roundup of late night takes on Trump's birther non-apology.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:34 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Facebook forcing Donald Trump supporters to change "deplorable" names

Recently, supporters of the Republican presidential nominee have been adding "deplorable" to their profile names.[...]

Facebook, however, is not allowing it. The site's terms of service requires users to use their real names on their profiles.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:35 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump in NC: 'Our African American communities are in the worse shape they've ever been... Ever. Ever. Ever.'

Sorry, but black folks in NC have seen way worse: The Wilmington Coup
posted by hydropsyche at 4:39 PM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

Heh. Internet sleuthing pays off! I feel like clapping.

David Fahrenthold: Photo on TripAdvisor shows portrait @realDonaldTrump bought w/charity $ hanging in resort.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:42 PM on September 20, 2016 [56 favorites]

Yeah, the fact that he's coming to Chester really pisses me off. I've never been, but I've heard it dismissed more than once as a slum.

So he goes to places that are associated, fairly or unfairly, with urban decay, and just lies his fucking ass off to the non PoC he's trying to reach. It's like, these people have enough to deal with without your awful ass exploiting them.
posted by angrycat at 4:46 PM on September 20, 2016

Every Trump Tweet, in a Big Searchable Database

NOPE
posted by zutalors! at 4:47 PM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

David Fahrenthold: Photo on TripAdvisor shows portrait @realDonaldTrump bought w/charity $ hanging in resort.

Ooh, that's awkward.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:48 PM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

Can someone tell me how I can calm down and stop shaking? I can literally feel the tips of my ears burning after this argument I had on Facebook.

I recommend not getting into political arguments, period, especially online. I know it's difficult to stay out of it, but you are almost never going to change anything except your frustration level. IF YOU MUST have these conversations, I highly recommend just listening without interjecting or judging. Try finding out why people feel the way they do as a goal (which is entirely possible), rather than trying to change someone's mind as a goal (not going to happen). A little empathy can plant the seed of change for someone, which usually takes a while to germinate. Simply attacking and digging in is not going to bring about self-examination.
posted by krinklyfig at 4:51 PM on September 20, 2016 [14 favorites]

Anecdote from relative: the Skittles retweet was too subtle, and Treyvon Martin is forgotten.

News folks: spell. It. Out. Otherwise the PC Police lose to some silly thing said online.
posted by filthy light thief at 4:51 PM on September 20, 2016 [9 favorites]

Metafilter: The wild and wacky things that happen over the course of consuming 10.8 billion skittles.

"Consuming skittles" being a very thinly veiled metaphor for "reading posts" in the 2016 election threads, and "10.8 billion" being a wildly conservative underestimate of the actual number of posts . . .
posted by flug at 4:52 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Photo on TripAdvisor shows portrait @realDonaldTrump bought w/charity $ hanging in resort.

Well, he could make the legal argument that the portrait is worthless because no one in their right mind would pay a dime for a picture of Donald Trump. In that case the entire $10,000 was a donation to charity in exchange for the equivalent of a tote bag trinket.

Might be a tough argument for him to swallow since his entire business model is built on selling the Trump name.
posted by JackFlash at 4:58 PM on September 20, 2016

Ooh, that's awkward.

Especially since the review it was posted on was signed off with 'Make America Great Again' implying that Trump was inadvertently busted by one of his own supporters!
posted by TwoWordReview at 4:58 PM on September 20, 2016 [15 favorites]

Joe Scarborough is apparently coming full circle.

So dumb and melodramatic. He acts like a jilted (or maybe abused) lover who is almost ready to forgive, like anyone cares who Joe Scarborough is voting for. I mean, he can't figure out if fascism might be acceptable, unless Trump performs the right kind of media rituals to appease him. I can forgive Jimmy Fallon for his antics, who has never even pretended to care about politics. But Scarborough can't fully denounce Trump, and is ready and willing to be convinced otherwise? Fuck him.
posted by krinklyfig at 5:01 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

But Scarborough can't fully denounce Trump, and is ready and willing to be convinced otherwise? Fuck him.

That show should have been replaced by Morning Joy months ago.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:06 PM on September 20, 2016 [21 favorites]

>>I mean, I just really don't even begin to understand this. Given any large population, a small number will be "bad" for whatever definition of bad you choose. I guess I just really don't see the point.

>They're trying to justify ethnic cleansing on the basis of Six Sigma.

No, I understand that the sense of the argument is "blargity-blargity-blarg, therefore RACISM JUSTIFIED."

But this is an argument that applies to literally every slightly large group. Some small percentage will be bad.

So it applies to right-handed people, and also left-handed people. It applies to people with a mole on the left cheek and also people without a mole on their left cheek. It applies to people with brown hair and also people without brown hair. And so on, to every division you can possibly make in the human population.

I realize this is handy when you are a racist/bigot/nationalist/neo-nazi/whatever, because you can conveniently just slot in whichever group you are denigrating this week and it works just as well.

But do they realize that it also applies--just as well!--to the group they themselves belong to? Should we kick those folks out of the country, too, because there are bound to be some murderers, rapists, criminals, thieves, shysters, whatever-whatever-whatever within the in-group in their particular racist/nationalist scheme, just as well as in the out-group?

I mean, the logic--such as it is--holds up equally well in both directions.

My mistake, I'm sure, is expecting any sort of rational thought or logical consistency in racist/bigoted/nationalist/neo-nazi/trumpist/whatever thought and argument . . .
posted by flug at 5:08 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

But do they realize that it also applies--just as well!--to the group they themselves belong to? Should we kick those folks out of the country, too, because there are bound to be some murderers, rapists, criminals, thieves, shysters, whatever-whatever-whatever within in-group in their particular racist/nationalist scheme, just as well as in the out-group?

No, because they're white.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:09 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Y'all I just need to share. My 73 year old mother has started posting Black Lives Matter stuff on FB of her own accord. She's been totally shocked by how many of her friends are Trump supporters and has been posting anti-Trump stuff for a while. I think maybe my former-Republican voting mother is being radicalized.
posted by threeturtles at 5:10 PM on September 20, 2016 [88 favorites]

No, it's the Trump supporters who are radicalized. Your mother is being normalized.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:12 PM on September 20, 2016 [59 favorites]

> No, because they're white.

Ah, the light dawns . . .
posted by flug at 5:14 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, yeah, I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But it's still a pretty shocking turn of events, especially given how much of the country seems to be moving the opposite direction.
posted by threeturtles at 5:15 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Could someone explain the point of national polling? It seems like a really weird thing to measure when recent Presidents have been elected without the popular vote.

To add to what others have said, the country refuses to face up to how absurd the Senate is as an institution and pretending the Electoral College doesn't exist up to the moment where you have no choice (most recently, Florida in 2000) is part of that fantasy.
posted by gerryblog at 5:17 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

achrise: "Unfortunately that's not how it turned out at the touristy shooting range near Las Vegas."

That's exactly how it worked out. The child couldn't keep the automatic weapon pointed down range and ended up killing someone behind the firing line.
posted by Mitheral at 5:17 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

The child couldn't keep the automatic weapon pointed down range and ended up killing someone behind the firing line.

Exactly. If I were one of the downrange targets, I'd prefer the shooter was on rock-n-roll. Semi-auto just forces you to aim.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:22 PM on September 20, 2016

Beyond the impact on Trump personally, which is where I've seen most of the discussion, could this prompt any kind of sanction or have repercussions for the Trump Foundation?

Well, given Vince McMahon funds the Trump Foundation, it only seems fitting to resurrect the Hart Foundation to take him and Trump on as the "Trump Foundation" to avenge the Montreal Screwjob and the death of Owen Hart, and to make sure the racist asshole doesn't get elected and that the greasy steroid pig gets the justice he deserves for churning through the bodies and lives of so many professional wrestlers and walking away from them when they're spent.

Perhaps via a pay-per-view event modeled on In Your House 16: Canadian Stampede in which Trump and McMahon get their asses handed to them.

Because that really just seems like a needed intervention at this point.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:34 PM on September 20, 2016

chris24: "Trump: "I don't care" if manufacturers leave, because we'll "make a fortune" from the 35% tariff we slap on them if they do."

Finally. What did people think Trump was talking about when he's been talking about "renegotiating trade deals"? The (pretty weak) provisions about environmental protections or labor standards? Investor-state dispute clauses? C'mon, now. It was always tariffs. Somehow, no one's been actually pressing him on this point but what else could he have been talking about?
posted by mhum at 5:40 PM on September 20, 2016 [9 favorites]

Even if the Saudis gave the Clinton foundation $25 million (which is unverified) I would bet that more has flown through Trump's coffers ($4.5 million for a floor of Trump tower and an estimated $5.7 million in rent, plus Prince Alwaleed bought his yacht for $18 million and acquired majority control of The Plaza hotel from his creditors)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:43 PM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

So the Saudis have paid off both of our potential next presidents and that should make us feel... better?
posted by indubitable at 5:46 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Do you think Hillary and Bill use their foundation as a slush fund like Donald does?
posted by asteria at 5:51 PM on September 20, 2016 [9 favorites]

Do you think the Saudis were donating to the Foundation because they support human rights?
posted by indubitable at 5:53 PM on September 20, 2016

According to The Upshot, Clinton has 751 ways to win and Trump has 259 ways to win. You can toggle "the outcome of the 10 states that have voted most like the nation since 2004." Each state is linked to the
Which is a change; they've previously selected the closest states from their composite polling.

Colorado (Clinton 77% chance)
Florida (Clinton 61%)
Iowa (even; Trump currently +4%)
Minnesota (Clinton 88%)
Nevada (Clinton 59%)
New Hampshire (Clinton 81%)
Ohio (Trump 58%)
Pennsylvania (Clinton 86%)
Virginia (Clinton 89%)
Wisconsin (Clinton 75%)

Trump could win Florida, Iowa, Ohio, and Pennsylvania and if Clinton takes the rest, she wins.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:55 PM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Right, but as pointed out before the results aren't uncorrelated. If Clinton loses Pennsylvania she'll have lost some of those other states as well.
posted by Justinian at 5:58 PM on September 20, 2016

The Saudis' reason for donating is irrelevant. The only thing relevant would be if the Clintons responded to the donation in an inappropriate manner. Which I will need to see evidence of before I give a rat's.
posted by rifflesby at 5:59 PM on September 20, 2016 [39 favorites]

Right, but as pointed out before the results aren't uncorrelated. If Clinton loses Pennsylvania she'll have lost some of those other states as well.

Sure, just testing an extreme outlier. If she wins the states where she's got a 75%+ chance, (Minnesota, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Wisconsin), she wins, without either Florida or Ohio. (Based on The Upshot's current odds, she'll probably win Florida and lose Ohio.)

The Upshot doesn't include North Carolina as one of its "10 states that have voted most like the nation" but gives her a 57% chance of winning there.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:06 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Each state is linked to the

...Upshot composite tracking poll for that state.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:07 PM on September 20, 2016

The Clinton Foundation is focused on AIDS programs, as I understand it. Not human rights.
posted by asteria at 6:10 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Do you think Hillary and Bill use their foundation as a slush fund like Donald does?

No. I think that the Clinton Foundation is a public charity not a private trust. And that it has a maximum possible four star rating from CharityNavigator. (And an A rating from CharityWatchdog). Its accounts are a matter of public record.

I also think it's a good charity that has disguised itself as a slush fund to raise money for good causes. Raising money from rich bastards trying to corrupt the system and then turning that to good works - the best possible sort of scam which is why Bill Clinton compared himself to Robin Hood
posted by Francis at 6:14 PM on September 20, 2016 [52 favorites]

I recommend not getting into political arguments, period, especially online. I know it's difficult to stay out of it, but you are almost never going to change anything except your frustration level. IF YOU MUST have these conversations, I highly recommend just listening without interjecting or judging. Try finding out why people feel the way they do as a goal (which is entirely possible), rather than trying to change someone's mind as a goal (not going to happen). A little empathy can plant the seed of change for someone, which usually takes a while to germinate. Simply attacking and digging in is not going to bring about self-examination.
Oh I know, I know. Sometimes there's a long way from theory to practice, particularly when I feel the stakes are so high. But I do agree theoretically.
posted by peacheater at 6:18 PM on September 20, 2016

Exposing people to anger does sometimes work. That slap in the face - as unfair as it might feel to them - will occasionally shock them into re-evaluating their thinking (it's certainly worked on me). Also, it's good to vent. Better than bottling the frustration up.
posted by um at 6:24 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

(don't actually slap them though)
posted by um at 6:24 PM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

Foundations started by public figures are almost always trading on the notoriety of the founder(s). That's why those types of folks start foundations, they know that they can do more good than the Joe P. Blow Foundation because no one wants to go to a $20,000 a plate gala just for a chance to meet and press the flesh with Joe P. Blow. But plenty of people will do that to meet Bill Clinton, or any number of George Bushes, or Jimmy Carter. It's pretty much understood that you're paying handsomely for the privilege of meeting and speaking with these Very Influential People. It doesn't mean those people are necessarily going to do jack shit for you in the long run, but just getting the bragging rights that those are the circles you run in and now you can drop names casually like, "Oh that time I was playing a round of golf with Bill Clinton [because I donated a gajillion duckets to his foundation and it was sort of the least he could do]" is worth the 3 million dollar donation or whatever.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:27 PM on September 20, 2016 [22 favorites]

Saudi Arabia donated money to the Clinton Global initiative that went to buy AIDS drugs in Africa. These donations seem unlikely to influence Clinton significantly. As evidence of the limited influence of these donations Hillary negotiated a nuclear deal with Iran that the Saudi's opposed.
posted by humanfont at 6:32 PM on September 20, 2016 [39 favorites]

I recommend not getting into political arguments, period, especially online

I don't do arguments anymore. I just say, "I got $100 US Dollars on Hillary For The Win, You willing to put YOUR $100 on Trump?"

And, of course, the answer is no. Looks like the Free Market has decided.
posted by mikelieman at 6:34 PM on September 20, 2016 [10 favorites]

Even if the Saudis gave the Clinton foundation $25 million

Maybe Donald Trump thinks it's a lot of money, but for Hillary, that's chump change. Seriously, his net worth is so low Mark Cuban is trolling him.
posted by mikelieman at 6:36 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

“I respect the 92-year-old-former president very much… that’s his right” @KellyannePolls on HW backing HRC

Conway keeps using this tactic, she might get the Bushes to actually endorse Clinton.
posted by chris24 at 6:37 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think liberals are acting dangerously making so light of people using million dollar donations to buy simple "notoriety". I think when it actually comes time to do something about money in politics, a lot of left of center people are going to have talked themselves into actually believing big money in politics is A-OK, if they haven't already. I understand why, I just think it's short-sighted.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:47 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

"92-year-old former president." Leading with the age is always a dick move.
posted by emelenjr at 6:50 PM on September 20, 2016 [21 favorites]

I think when it actually comes time to do something about money in politics, a lot of left of center people are going to have talked themselves into actually believing big money in politics is A-OK, if they haven't already. I understand why, I just think it's short-sighted.

There's a reason a lot of us support Campaign Finance Reform - and so does Clinton.

And I think that if there is to be far too much money sloshing around politics, the Clintons diverting it into a well run charity is the best possible thing anyone can do about it.
posted by Francis at 6:51 PM on September 20, 2016 [22 favorites]

Yep, whippersnappers, I remember the Skittles scare of ought-sixteen.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:52 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

another student from mine, from Sierra Leone, has been here for a few years. He doesn't yet have the right to vote, but he's been following the election, and he told me that in America elections don't result in people killing each other, like they do where he is from.

I felt like reminding him that the civl war here was some 150+ years ago, a blink of an eye, and that it was a brutal and terrible conflict where many people killed each other.

But I didn't, because. . . I don't know why. Because I had to teach both "Battle Royal" and "The Shawl" that day and was like eh let the stories speak for themselves.

And then we were doing the math to try to figure out when the events in Battle Royal take place, and roughly the 1930s? I thought about pointing out that this is the era the Trump camp is hearkening towards and I. . couldn't. Maybe if this was the class where I know I have Trump supporters or the one where I know I have Gary Johnson supporters, maybe.

But these were people of color in a very non-affluent part of town, and it was an evening class, and they seemed so tired, and I trusted in writers far better than I to convey certain things.
posted by angrycat at 6:52 PM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

There are a lot of cases of big money directly all up in politics, but I have yet to be convinced that the Clinton Foundation is one of those cases.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:53 PM on September 20, 2016 [11 favorites]

State GOP cash on hand as of 8/31:

NC 70k
VA 78k
PA 102k
posted by melissasaurus at 6:53 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's funny. The Trump campaign was happy to have 93-year-old Bob Dole's support at the RNC and nobody suggested his opinion was any less valid because of his age. It's almost like they only attack the people who don't support them.
posted by zachlipton at 6:55 PM on September 20, 2016 [28 favorites]

I think liberals are acting dangerously making so light of people using million dollar donations to buy simple "notoriety".

You'd shit yourself if you knew the kind of donations that get you tickets to openings at the Met.

Look, I have friends who work in the NGO sector and have plenty of criticisms of institutionalised philanthropy. But soft pay-for-play (paying for proximity to celebrity, not for quid pro quos) doesn't bother me.
posted by holgate at 6:57 PM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

a lot of left of center people are going to have talked themselves into actually believing big money in politics is A-OK, if they haven't already

Or maybe some of us feel there's a distinction between money that funds campaigns that get politicians elected and money that goes to their foundations when they're not running for elective office.

I'm willing to entertain the notion that there's something unseemly about donations to foundations that could potentially lead to quid pro quo scenarios, but the case for quid pro quo is a lot easier to make when the money is funding someone's campaign (benefiting them materially) rather than their foundation (benefiting the recipients of the charitable donations.) If we can't solve the former, we have no chance of stopping the latter, assuming for the sake of argument that there's something wrong with it.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:58 PM on September 20, 2016 [15 favorites]

Oh gosh it just occurred to me. There's no way Conway happened to know that Bush was 92 off the top of her head. She must have looked that up in advance and had it ready to go as a talking point. She actually planned to say it that way.
posted by zachlipton at 7:00 PM on September 20, 2016 [26 favorites]

She actually planned to say it that way.

Oh yeah, she went in intending to smear him. And then of course slammed Jeb. Again. To go along with Trump's repeated attacks on Gates, W's Defense Secretary, the blame of W for 9/11, etc. I'm curious what W is thinking right now.
posted by chris24 at 7:09 PM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

a lot of us support Campaign Finance Reform - and so does Clinton.

Practicality is working toward changing a system you don't like, while still being very successful working within that system. That's one of Hillary Clinton's strongest skill sets, and that which raises the most ire from her adversaries and a lot of suspicion from her allies.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:12 PM on September 20, 2016 [18 favorites]

In an interview with some WBFK NC station, Trump said that second-generation immigrants are worse than the first. So, I suppose, that means deporting a lot of brown American citizens.

Also too: Trump (via his Scottish mother) is a second-generation immigrant.

(fwiw, I think there's an angry arsehole twentysomething man problem in America, but it manifests itself in different ways.)
posted by holgate at 7:13 PM on September 20, 2016 [21 favorites]

Actual sentence that I uttered earlier tonight, which made perfect sense to everyone in my tabletop gaming group, without any context whatsoever beyond why I didn't want too much food:

"I stopped and bought some protest Skittles on the way here."

2016, y'all.
posted by seyirci at 7:16 PM on September 20, 2016 [22 favorites]

> I've been listening to political podcasts. Not one has mentioned sexism in the campaign and its effects. Are there any that talk about sexism?

Sam Wang's interview with Rebecca Traister a few days ago was really good. Politics and Polls #11: Gender and the Presidency, with Rebecca Traister, Sept. 16 (soundcloud). (Post on PEC with other links.)
posted by nangar at 7:16 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm curious what W is thinking right now.

"I wonder if I should branch into mixed media"
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:17 PM on September 20, 2016 [38 favorites]

Most of his kids are second gen immigrants too.
posted by Mitheral at 7:18 PM on September 20, 2016 [18 favorites]

W is probably wondering if his endorsement in particular would do Clinton more harm than good.
posted by stolyarova at 7:24 PM on September 20, 2016 [10 favorites]

Hillary Clinton has LOTS of paths to 270 electoral votes. Donald Trump has three.

There are lots and lots of other combinations that get Clinton over 270 electoral votes. And another handful that get her over 300.

That's a stark contrast to the paucity of paths to 270 for Trump. To have any chance at winning, Trump absolutely must hold the 206 electoral votes Mitt Romney won in 2012. That's no small task given that Arizona, Georgia and North Carolina were Romney states four years ago and are now all close.

Let's assume Trump wins those states and the rest Romney won, too. He could also win Florida, Ohio and Virginia and still lose to Clinton. (That would be 266 electoral votes for Trump.) He could win Florida, Ohio, Colorado and Iowa and still lose. You get the idea; this is going to be a massive climb for Trump.

The three paths:

• Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire, Ohio, and one of Maine's two electoral votes
• Florida, Ohio, Virginia and Iowa or Nevada
• Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania

posted by kirkaracha at 7:24 PM on September 20, 2016 [9 favorites]

Most of his kids are second gen immigrants too.

Tiffany escapes again.
posted by holgate at 7:27 PM on September 20, 2016 [17 favorites]

But Trump's children are safely white, so I would imagine when the Trump immigration squad comes by the house, they all get passes. Hell, he probably puts one of the older ones in charge, figuring they'd know the territory best.
posted by Silverstone at 7:36 PM on September 20, 2016

I'm curious what W is thinking right now.

"Should I get a glass of milk, or just drink out of the carton. Laura gets mad if she sees me do that, but..."
posted by mikelieman at 7:38 PM on September 20, 2016 [14 favorites]

I'm curious what W is thinking.


{Holy shit 'The Inferno' is science.}
posted by clavdivs at 7:39 PM on September 20, 2016

I dunno. I was on-board with Draft Warren. Much more than feeling the Bern. I knew it wouldn't materialize, mostly because Warren is a loyal Democrat, and the DNC made sure as shit known HRC would be our candidate this go 'round, despite two decades worth of the opposition sharpening their claws just for her.

In an alternate universe? Bernie vs. Warren? Not even close. Warren in a stroll through the primaries. The Donald? A Helpless, sputtering wreck against her energy and sincerity and awesome (and underrated) Okie accent.

But. That is not the election we want. The election we have, a pitchforks and torches sort of election, where HRC needs to explain why she is the greater of all evils we actually need... well.

I hold out no hope. Warren 2020!
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:41 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

C'mon buddy.
posted by um at 7:44 PM on September 20, 2016 [17 favorites]

Warren-2020, She has the okie-doke.
posted by clavdivs at 7:44 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

2024, surely, unless Clinton chooses not to run for a second term? Warren's not going to primary an incumbent.
posted by jackbishop at 7:53 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

2024, surely, unless Clinton chooses not to run for a second term? Warren's not going to primary an incumbent.

Liz Warren will be seventy-five in 2024. If she wanted to run, this was her year. She doesn't want it.
posted by mightygodking at 8:01 PM on September 20, 2016 [29 favorites]

People, we need effective leadership in the Senate. Not everyone is destined for the Oval Office.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:04 PM on September 20, 2016 [65 favorites]

SO, I was at another Trump rally today, in scenic Kenansville, at the Duplin County Event Center across the street from Sprunt Community College [real.] It was pretty much like last time I went to a Trump rally, though Trump was really low-energy at this one. Also, I spotted a t-shirt that said "Deplorable Lives Matter," (and, like, fuck that person right in the ear,) so I won't be at all surprised if the next rally I go to has whimsical Skittles-themed t-shirts. Also, fuck these people.
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:05 PM on September 20, 2016 [35 favorites]

An Accurate Version of Trump, Jr.’s “Skittles Tweet”
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:13 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm in Boston for a conference and decided to visit the Boston Hillary office (11 Beacon St, stop in any weekday 10am-9pm) for some phone banking. I've only phone naked from home so I figured a change of scene could be fun. It was HOT, crowded and noisy. I loved it! That said, I think I prefer the comfort of phone banking in my quiet office over lunch or in my PJs at home. Modern technology is such a treat!

ALSO, in bigger news, my undecided sister in FL might be willing to vote Hillary thanks to her plan to push for paid family leave. Of all the votes I could influence this election, hers is my gold ring. Hope she finds the debates helpful.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:15 PM on September 20, 2016 [24 favorites]

SCOOPLET: Don King will campaign w/Trump in Ohio tomorrow. King was barred from GOP convention by @reince (who now looks like a huge beta).
posted by chris24 at 8:16 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

About polls and forecasts (and a question below for stats people here):

In addition to Nate Silver and Sam Wang, there's Drew Linzer who runs Votamatic.org (he's also on Twitter). I mentioned him about 6-7 election threads ago (when I felt a lot younger), before he'd officially launched his 2016 forecasts. (*see disclosure below)

His forecasts launched pretty recently (mid-late-August) as part of Daily Kos Elections. So if you've been there recently, the forecasts models there are by him.

- This year he's forecasting the elections for president (currently showing Clinton's chances at 65%, with 285 EV for Clinton and 253 for Trump), senators (currently at 49 Dem, 51 Rep), and governors.

- His 2012 electoral votes forecast on Votamatic was one of the few that were correct -- and it didn't fluctuate as much as the others and was pretty set by June 2012. He also forecast the Senate and gubernatorial races in the 2014 midterms (as part of Daily Kos) and his models were among the most successful (more details/links on his site).

- The Daily Kos Elections methodology page has more info the models he developed (btw the link to this is tucked away on Daily Kos Elections in the very bottom right corner).

- Linzer is also posting further Clinton/Trump head-to-head trendlines on Votamatic:

I will update the trendlines on this site every day or two, as new polls come in. Every state that has at least one poll will get a trendline. To see the polling data and trends together, go to the Poll Tracker page. For a zoomed-in view of each state’s trendline, check out the State Trend Detail pages.

- His latest post there has further details on his approach this year, including methodology for the trendlines (towards the middle of the post).

My question for stats folks: I'm not much of a stats person but I know quite a few folks here are, so I'm genuinely curious: what are your opinions on Linzer's forecasting approach vs. the approaches by Nate Silver and Sam Wang, particularly the presidential forecasts?

(I did a search and didn't see discussion here that compares DKE, so if it's already been covered, I apologize and would be grateful if you could point me to the right place.)

Btw, I also think it's kinda neat that he built his 2016 election models in Python, using an open-source framework.

(*Disclosure: I also mentioned this before, but I used to know Drew years ago. Life changed, and I lost track of him until one day when I saw his name on MeFi during President Obama's re-election campaign; was happy to read about his success. Haven't been in touch with him since forever ago; I should probably send him a note sometime.)
posted by rangefinder 1.4 at 8:19 PM on September 20, 2016 [14 favorites]

I've only phone naked from home so I figured a change of scene could be fun. It was HOT, crowded and noisy.

God bless America, and God bless autocorrect.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:29 PM on September 20, 2016 [26 favorites]

So back in the news, Trump Foundation being used as a slush fund is gaining enough traction that Conway has started her unique brand of spin on the topic. Trump's campaign has put out a set of "nuh uh!" press releases. Reporters on Twitter who are embedded with the Trump campaign don't look like they're about to take shit on this one. Katy Tur is waiting for Trump to provide actual proof for things. Sopan Deb is on a near constant tweetstorm highlighting and pointing out falsehoods, while David Fahrenthold on high alert looking for the missing 6 foot tall painting paid for by the Trump foundation after finding the 4 foot tall version.
posted by Talez at 8:39 PM on September 20, 2016 [23 favorites]

I...do not expect Minnesota to go red. Remember, this is the only state that Marco Rubio won in the primaries. Trump didn't even get second, he came in third amongst the Republicans. I know MN has become more purple in recent elections but I would be genuinely surprised if we swung for Trump. My guess is that's not the hill the MN GOP wants to die on.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:42 PM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

Warren Sec. Treasury 2017....
posted by mikelieman at 8:42 PM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Warren for chair of the Senate Finance Committee sooner than later.

FFS, Americans, co-equal branches of government?
posted by holgate at 8:45 PM on September 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

@reince (who now looks like a huge beta).

Speaking of, if I understand my Red Pill Theory, Trump can't be an Alpha.

Alpha's learn that marriage is a scam after the FIRST divorce.
posted by mikelieman at 8:45 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Full interview of Burnett vs Conway. Burnett tries to poke but she basically got gish galloped and gaslighted to death by Conway.

Conway is such a dangerous person to anyone but the most experienced interviewer. She will be repeatedly intellectually dishonest to your face and smile while she shits all over you. If she gets cornered she deftly brings the topic back to her talking points without any anger or force, just slides it back on in there.
posted by Talez at 8:48 PM on September 20, 2016 [16 favorites]

no one wants to go to a $20,000 a plate gala just for a chance to meet and press the flesh with Joe P. Blow. But plenty of people will do that to meet Bill Clinton, or any number of George Bushes, or Jimmy Carter.

Georges Bush.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:51 PM on September 20, 2016 [52 favorites]

It's interesting that only now that Kellyanne Duckspeak (a truly despicable person, if you pardon the Daffy reference) and the press-release bullshitter go after Fahrenthold. That suggests that he's very much onto something.

And yes, the way to handle duckspeak is to wait for the bullshit generalities and say "name three."
posted by holgate at 8:51 PM on September 20, 2016 [11 favorites]

Georgii Bushii
posted by ian1977 at 8:52 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

Based on today's filings, it looks like the Clinton campaign continues to do better financially but Trump is definitely doing better than before. Clinton raised $59,511,672 and Trump raised $41,751,717. Clinton cash on hand at the end of the period was $68,429,276 while Trump is at $50,260,442.
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:55 PM on September 20, 2016

Their entire M.O. is lie and buy time until the next news cycle. No contradictory evidence, just a lie couched as a factual statement. The tax returns are just the longest running example.

Lie, lie some more, and finish it off with pie ala lie.

I know this isn't a novel observation, but it's so damn infuriating the level of contempt they have for anyone questioning them.
posted by strange chain at 8:56 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Also of note, Trump appears to have donated (not loaned) ~$2 million to his own campaign in this last cycle. Clinton's number is ~$80k.
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:57 PM on September 20, 2016

I put in another $25 tonight. I know people like to say that liberals are running scared but I'm fucking terrified of the specter of a Trump presidency.
posted by Talez at 8:57 PM on September 20, 2016

8.5% of the US Rio Olympic team (including the oldest US Olympian to win a medal) were born somewhere else; I wouldn't be surprised if 1st and 2nd gen immigrants made up 20-25% of the team.
posted by Mitheral at 9:00 PM on September 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

Omg. Eric Trump is the horrific lovechild of clan nosferatu and clan Giovanni isn't he??
posted by ian1977 at 9:03 PM on September 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

but I'm fucking terrified of the specter of a Trump presidency.

I read that as 'sphincter' and yeah me too.
posted by rifflesby at 9:06 PM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

I was reading one of the many articles that people have posted in this thread and it was talking about how the Clinton campaign has had some missteps and made some mistakes (not disclosing pneumonia earlier, etc) but that Hillary seems to learn from her mistakes, which is something I have also noticed over the last year. Some people point to that as proof of her being wishy-washy or whatever, but I see it as a mark of real intelligence and humility - when she knows better, she does better. I think this is a rare and excellent quality in a leader.

Anyway, in my mind's apparent eagerness to compare all the main political players to fictional movie characters, I've come to the conclusion that Hillary is like Joshua in War Games. The part at the end where Joshua is running through all the possible scenarios and outcomes in Global Thermonuclear War and Ally Sheedy leans over to Matthew Broderick and whispers "What's he doing?" and Matthew Broderick whispers back "He's learning." - that's what I think Hillary does. She really thinks things through and still is open to learning as as she goes (see zutalors! comment above about Clinton's callout of white people on her facebook. I don't think the Hillary of a year ago would have done that).

To continue my political fanfic, I decided awhile ago that Trump is basically a dumb Nathan Jessup, and he hasn't let me down in that regard. Keeping my fingers crossed that at the end of the story Dumb Nathan Jessup ends up in prison, just like Real Nathan Jessup, a victim of his own narcissism.
posted by triggerfinger at 9:18 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Speaking of missing paintings, I remember going to Atlantic City in the late 90s/early 00s and seeing a huge mural (in the Taj?) of Trump surrounded by "working people" performing all sorts of jobs presumably for him. Was I dreaming? Am I now?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:19 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

DID YOU ORDER THE SKITTLES TWEET?
YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT I DID
posted by zachlipton at 9:27 PM on September 20, 2016 [11 favorites]

You guys, I realized something last night (and then I had to wait until I had finally read to the bottom of the thread so I didn't lose my place...). Ever since his convention speech, I haven't been able to stand listening to Trump for more than a 30 sec sound bite. I just get this ball of fear and anxiety and anger and nausea in the pit of my stomach and I have to stop watching. But for the debates, I'll have to watch him. And the thing I realized last night is that I'm just so glad that I'm going to have you guys to watch them with. We'll get through it together. (God, I hope she smacks him down hard.)
posted by Weeping_angel at 9:37 PM on September 20, 2016 [24 favorites]

Oh! And there's a status update going viral-ish on Facebook that sums up the skittles thing better than anywhere I've seen. I do not know Eli Bosnick, but they've written this:

"If I gave you a bowl of skittles and three of them were poison would you still eat them?"

"Are the other skittles human lives?"

"What?"

"Like. Is there a good chance. A really good chance. I would be saving someone from a war zone and probably their life if I ate a skittle?"

"Well sure. But the point-"

"I would eat the skittles."

"Ok-well the point is-"

"I would GORGE myself on skittles. I would eat every single fucking skittle I could find. I would STUFF myself with skittles. And when I found the poison skittle and died I would make sure to leave behind a legacy of children and of friends who also ate skittle after skittle until there were no skittles to be eaten. And each person who found the poison skittle we would weep for. We would weep for their loss, for their sacrifice, and for the fact that they did not let themselves succumb to fear but made the world a better place by eating skittles.

Because your REAL question...the one you hid behind a shitty little inaccurate, insensitive, dehumanizing racist little candy metaphor is, IS MY LIFE MORE IMPORTANT THAN THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF MEN, WOMEN, AND TERRIFIED CHILDREN...

... and what kind of monster would think the answer to that question... is yes?"
posted by Weeping_angel at 9:43 PM on September 20, 2016 [211 favorites]

Apparently Tom Fowler did the research and found our three poisoned Skittles for us. We may now eat with abandon. Until Junior messes them up for us again. This is why we can't have nice candy.
posted by Silverstone at 9:56 PM on September 20, 2016 [9 favorites]

"Former campaign manager/current @CNN pundit .@CLewandowski_ got another $20K in August through his LLC from Trump for "strategy consulting"" --@mateagold

CNN has abandoned any pretense of journalism.
posted by zachlipton at 9:58 PM on September 20, 2016 [22 favorites]

Weeping_angel, that is beautiful.
posted by mochapickle at 10:02 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Wasn't mine; I'm just sharing it everywhere I can. But thanks! I thought so, too.
posted by Weeping_angel at 10:04 PM on September 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

triggerfinger: "Hillary seems to learn from her mistakes"

Just last week, I was making pretty much the exact converse (inverse?) point to a friend about Trump: has he shown evidence of learning anything at all during this campaign? At the beginning, maybe you can try to cut a non-politician candidate some slack for not knowing all the ins and outs of the federal budget or every single foreign affairs issue. But after so many (so gaddamn many) months of this campaign, can we honestly think of any topic that Trump seems to have learned something new about? Is there any single thing (relevant to the presidency) that he knows now that he didn't know last year?

And, speaking of the knowledge-level of politicians, I remember realizing that we really seem to demand a lot more from our sports coaches than from our politicians. If I recall correctly, during the C-in-C forum, Trump proposed establishing a military court system, seemingly unaware that such a thing already exists. Now, imagine someone was being vetted to be the manager of the Yankees who says something like: "Why do we even give the pitchers at-bats? They're all terrible. We should have some kind of system where someone can pinch hit for a pitcher but the pitcher can still stay in the game and pitch."
posted by mhum at 10:09 PM on September 20, 2016 [22 favorites]

I am not looking forward to the talking heads after the debate saying how Trump beat expectations by not spitting up on himself and Clinton's voice was too shrill and she didn't smile enough. I'm looking at you CNN.
posted by Justinian at 10:09 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Sorry, but black folks in NC have seen way worse: The Wilmington Coup

I saw the URL for this link and momentarily thought that hydropsyche had caught NPR in an uncharacteristic act of realtime contexualization that might even, to the untrained eye, be indicative of journalistic integrity.

Unfortunately, it looks like the dateline on that piece is from August 2008. :(

All this is to say, whenever you catch a conservative (whether a politician or a media person) wringing their hands about voter fraud in America and they're not talking about Reconstruction: grab your wallet and run. They're fucking gaslighting you
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:10 PM on September 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

I hold out no hope. Warren 2020!

Like others have mentioned, her age kinda makes that a moot point, although I hesitate to elevate that ageist stuff too much (even though it's a big part of the decision to strategists). Moreover, she has been unequivocal in her desire to continue her work in the senate, and her lack of desire in pursuing the presidency- and she has been asked repeatedly for years by the media and by Democratic activists. Some people really do not want the hassle nor the risk of running for president, and I don't blame them.
posted by krinklyfig at 10:10 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

Gavin Newsom '24.
posted by Justinian at 10:12 PM on September 20, 2016

Protest votes rely on herd immunity to protect us. Unfortunately, Jill Stein's voters don't recognize the concept of herd immunity.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:16 PM on September 20, 2016 [59 favorites]

Kamala Harris '24.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:16 PM on September 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

Elizabeth Warren was on fire today at the Stumpf (Wells Fargo) testimony. I'm super glad she's in the Senate. We need more like her there.
posted by triggerfinger at 10:17 PM on September 20, 2016 [17 favorites]

Okay, I think I've figured out how to link to a Facebook status. Here's a link to Eli Bosnick's post.
posted by Weeping_angel at 10:18 PM on September 20, 2016 [9 favorites]

(For your sharing pleasure.)
posted by Weeping_angel at 10:19 PM on September 20, 2016

Is there any single thing (relevant to the presidency) that he knows now that he didn't know last year?

Well, he has learned that focusing his attacks on Clinton and the media is much more effective than attacking every person who might have insulted him. This was the biggest concern of his strategists since Manafort first came on board, i.e., since seasoned campaigners started advising him. I think Trump has mostly taken this advice and somewhat ignored advice about pivoting away from racist populism. The scary thing to me is, it's a much more effective campaign for the general than anyone anticipated. I really hope Clinton gets his hackles up during the debates.

But, maybe more to your question, has Trump learned anything about leadership or governance? No, I don't think so. All he seems to care about is poll numbers and rallies.
posted by krinklyfig at 10:19 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

At 'soggy' Pence speech, insults rain down:

Mike Pence stood with no umbrella before about 650 die-hard supporters in an at times torrid rain Tuesday night, and delivered his stump speech over the chants of protesters less than 100 yards from the stage.
...
“Six hundred and fifty people standing in the pouring rain,” Pence said. “I told him, we’re going to win Virginia.”

Wow. 650? That sounds like a lot. September 2008:

After keeping his supporters waiting for nearly an hour, Mr. Obama went forward with his speech as a crowd estimated by campus officials at 26,000 grew soggy.

posted by kirkaracha at 10:26 PM on September 20, 2016 [27 favorites]

Rachel Maddow: Why did you decide to roast that guy on a spit?
Elizabeth Warren: Why not?

posted by XMLicious at 10:41 PM on September 20, 2016 [23 favorites]

> Stumpf

I have a friend who works in banking compliance and he was insane with outrage after the Wells Fargo news came out. He made exactly the point that Warren makes here, which is that these low-level, fired employees were laboring under high-pressure sales quotas for garbage paychecks. Perverse incentives inevitably result in fraud and criminality. But they're the ones who are paying, not Strumpf or anyone else who conceived of the program or used the money generated from it to increase wealth for the company, interest free. It's incredibly gratifying to see Warren make these points forcefully but with keen intelligence and composure.

The ultimate win would be to see some banking executives in shackles. Fining them or forcing resignations with bonuses on them is not nearly enough of a disincentive to stop this sort of abuse. I can only hope that the influence of Warren will be felt in the Clinton White House.
posted by xyzzy at 10:46 PM on September 20, 2016 [25 favorites]

sanctuary for all who survive.
posted by clavdivs at 10:59 PM on September 20, 2016

quidnunc kid 2020/1 QE*

* Quidnunc Era
posted by um at 11:04 PM on September 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

From the media abdicating responsibility in favor of a good story, to the old leaders lining up from opposite sides to support the reasonable choice, to the normalization of everyday xenophobia and racism, everything is feeling very Brexit-y to me right now. And it's terrifying.
posted by cell divide at 11:05 PM on September 20, 2016 [10 favorites]

I am against Trump.
posted by mazola at 11:10 PM on September 20, 2016 [9 favorites]

I wonder what those folks who weren't republicans but voted for Trump feel. Disgust or triumph.

Yet I feel confident in our system despite the very real threat to the republic. The enduring spirit and democratic ideals must outlive this rise of vicious idealism. The very soul of America is what we need a return too. God bless and vote #1.
posted by clavdivs at 11:19 PM on September 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

"this is a problem where second generation is turning out to be in some cases worse than the first generation..."

I'll spare you all my family's immigration story from Iran to the USA where I was born and the amazing members of our community my parents are, but suffice it to say that between this and the skittles thing I am ready to throw my computer out the window today.

I have been out of evens for weeks now and now it's personal? Well, I signed up to phone bank for Hillary and I have lots of free time.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 11:22 PM on September 20, 2016 [46 favorites]

If getting Trump to convince his supporters to wear a shirt publicly branding themselves as deplorable (at thirty five bucks a pop) was Hillary's eleventh dimensional jiu jitsu plan all along, I'm impressed.
posted by vverse23 at 11:42 PM on September 20, 2016 [13 favorites]

I haven't been able to keep up with these election threads, so I don't know if comments about the time it's taking to get Hillary swag are verboten, but here's my data point. I ordered on July 30th and I am supposed to get my stuff tomorrow. So, that's 7 and a half weeks or so? I hope I get my shot glasses before the debate so I can use them for a drinking game...if you have any good ideas for that that won't completely render me insensible by the end of the first round I'd love to hear them.
posted by Rufous-headed Towhee heehee at 11:57 PM on September 20, 2016

if you have any good ideas for that that won't completely render me insensible by the end of the first round I'd love to hear them.

I had one idea that I'm not sure I've gotten anyone to go along with, but it's very simple. Everybody has a shot in front of them from the beginning of the debate, and you have to take it the first time you feel ill. I mean like genuinely, viscerally upset. No cheating and doing it the second Trump walks out. You really have to wait for the real, deep down horrible gut feeling. This seems to present a couple of advantages: you have a shot designated for the first time you really need it, plus it provides an interesting look into what dismays or enrages your friends! Fun for the whole gang!
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:14 AM on September 21, 2016 [9 favorites]

If you wanted to balance it out I guess you could have a second shot designated for the first time Clinton makes you feel like it'll all be ok? If it doesn't happen you drink it at the end, along with a bonus shot, because at that point fuck it
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:16 AM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

vverse23 I think it's worse than that. I've seen propaganda where Trump supporters are being asked to wear red on Election Day to "cut down on voter fraud".

Trump fans are pledging to wear a red shirt, hat, or other garishly red item when voting on November 8th to showcase their support to cameras, and to highlight any “funny business” occurring at the polls.

I guess this means we should all wear red and neutralize that intention.
posted by erisfree at 12:30 AM on September 21, 2016 [12 favorites]

No, if everybody wore red, they'd be able to claim that there's funny business when there are less votes than reds. The redshirts need to be outnumbered by other colors to show that the numbers against him are real.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:51 AM on September 21, 2016 [9 favorites]

Of course, the proud tradition of the "secret ballot" and "no campaigning AT the polls" are getting thrown out by these Un-Americans.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:53 AM on September 21, 2016 [19 favorites]

The red clothing is another of Trump's brilliant ideas for outreach to what he considers the black community, by expressing solidarity with the Bloods.
posted by XMLicious at 12:54 AM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

I hear what you're saying! I'm going on the assumption that they're going to claim "funny business" no matter what. My assumption here (I know, I know) is that the color of a person's clothing has no bearing on how they vote. "We counted lots of red shirts" isn't an argument that will elect a president, right? RIGHT? :(

The ideas for Hillary supporters to wear red is a very figurative red herring.
posted by erisfree at 12:58 AM on September 21, 2016

Everyone who watches Star Trek knows the fate of red shirts.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:02 AM on September 21, 2016 [36 favorites]

Maybe Mefi's Own jscalzi could lead a demonstration...
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:04 AM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Red is also a very common and popular clothing color. Sounds to me like it would mostly result in confusion as supporters try to pick out fellow travelers, and discover that a lot of people wear red besides Trump supporters. So I'm all for it, as a strategy for them anyway. With any luck it will distract them from "observer" duties, and other efforts to disenfranchise voters.
posted by krinklyfig at 1:04 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sickening. so they will know who to intimidate and try to disenfranchise on polling day.
posted by Meatbomb at 1:15 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, I said we need to have Poll Watcher Watchers, so this'll just make the troublemakers more visible.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:27 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Red is overall the most common color in American sports apparel.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 1:44 AM on September 21, 2016

538 has Trump's chance of winning at between 45 and 48% as of today depending on which model you're looking at. That's super. This is fine.
posted by Justinian at 2:06 AM on September 21, 2016 [10 favorites]

another student from mine, from Sierra Leone, has been here for a few years. He doesn't yet have the right to vote, but he's been following the election, and he told me that in America elections don't result in people killing each other, like they do where he is from.

Not yet. Just give it a few more years.
posted by sour cream at 2:10 AM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

A few more years? Maybe a few more weeks.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:16 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

In response to Trump's tweet, "Once again someone we were told is ok turns out to be a terrorist who wants to destroy our country & its people- how did he get thru system?", Angus Johnston responds, "It was a really crowded primary." Burn!
posted by vac2003 at 2:41 AM on September 21, 2016 [79 favorites]

Red? Surely brown!

Or is it a Russian solidarity thing with Putin?
posted by spitbull at 3:59 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

I finally defriended (for the sake of my own sanity) a Stein supporter I was friends with back in my old town. He was a Bernie supporter who talked about going for Clinton and insisted the assholes shouting at her during her acceptance speech were part of the 'healing process' ... only to turn around and still support Stein.

He's not an angry asshole like some of them I know, just naive and overly idealistic. But, when you're a white male, I think it's easy to ignore just how much your voice carries.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 4:39 AM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

ANECDATA: I lived in Dallas for many years, and used to be Republican, so I see a fair amount of Facebook activity from the dark side. And while the men all seem to have succumbed to Trumpism, the women are giving me hope. Two friends, who I'll describe as a staunch conservatives but sane ones with a heart, are both looking like they might vote Clinton or at least Johnson.

One friend, who after the Dallas police shootings posted some things supporting All/Blue Lives Matter and has posted things critical of Kaepernick's protests, so clearly still pretty conservative in outlook, has been posting disgust with Trump and sharing things from Gary Johnson's Facebook, and then this morning shared CSpan's post about Warren grilling Stumpf with "Preach it, Senator Warren. Too bad she isn't running for POTUS." Needless to say, she's never voted D before. And probably won't this year, but I'll take a Johnson vote, and a conversion to a Warren fan, from a lifelong R in Texas.

The other friend hasn't been posting politically, but messaged me asking about my switch of parties, how I got past the years of ingrained distrust and Clinton hate, for information about Clinton from reasonable/non-rightwing sources to help her understand her better, etc. Once again a lifelong conservative R, but one disgusted with Trump and who has a lot of gay friends now, and how Rs treat them and Trump's response to the Pulse shooting has turned her off to the party and man. And while she hasn't posted politics, she did post images from Dallas Pride a couple days ago, and when some friends made snarky borderline homophobic comments, she called them out for it in no uncertain terms.

Anyway, just two examples, but does illustrate I think the issues with college educated women the polls show Trump has.
posted by chris24 at 4:53 AM on September 21, 2016 [42 favorites]

I'm setting myself for the possibility that at the debate Clinton will be poised, reasonable, and unintimidated by Trump, that she will calmly point out the stakes of the election, that she will demonstrate that he is a flaming sack of dog shit point by point, and Trump will do his tough guy routine.

And that for some primal reason, the tough guy routine works as it has been working through the primaries, and yeah, maybe the press will point out his lies, but people will still be stoked that HRC was put in her place by I dunno his alluding to her health.

I'm psyching myself up for that because I'm now at the place where if the national reaction isn't like *oh we're paying attention now and fuck that guy*, I'm slapping on a nicotine patch and going to break something. And that's my calm reaction.
posted by angrycat at 5:26 AM on September 21, 2016 [19 favorites]

New York Times: We Gave Four Good Pollsters the Same Raw Data. They Had Four Different Results.

The pollsters from the Democratic polling firm estimated Hillary +4, the Republican firm +1, and the unaffiliated public poll +3. So far so predictable. But the statistical model of "Stanford University, Columbia University and Microsoft Research" was an outlier, estimating +1 for Trump. Maybe it's just me, but from the names and techniques alone they're the one I'd expect to be most accurate. So this is... concerning.
posted by Rangi at 5:36 AM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Unaffiliated public poll +3 for Clinton? Or for Trump?

Edit nvm I actually went and RTFA, for some reason I thought you were saying that the R pollster was finding +1 for Trump, but actually everyone found Clinton was leading except for that one pollster. Eh.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 5:43 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

WaPo: Donald Trump finally ramped up his campaign spending. So where did the money go?

The campaign's largest investment continues to be in digital consulting and online ads. Giles-Parscale, a San Antonio-based firm whose president, Brad Parscale, serves as the Trump campaign’s digital director, was once again the biggest vendor for the month, collecting $11.1 million, much of which was directed to digital ads. The company, which got its foothold designing websites for the Trump Organization in 2011, had previously been paid $12.5 million this cycle.

Cambridge Analytica, a data-analytics firm backed by GOP megadonor Robert Mercer, got $250,000 in August, up from $100,000 in July. Trump's media consultant, Rick Reed, was paid $4.5 million to place TV ads. And Private Jet Services, a New Hampshire-based air charter, received $2.3 million. That's a shift from past months, when Trump mainly used own his private jet company Tag Air to fly. In August, Tag Air was paid just about $320,000.[...]

The campaign spent a large sum — nearly a quarter of a million dollars in one month — to pay its lawyers at the firm Jones Day.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:43 AM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

Infowars editor laying the groundwork to blame any Trump supporter attack on Hillary Clinton.
posted by Talez at 5:51 AM on September 21, 2016

angrycat, stock up on your meds because it's coming. I do not expect the debate to have any effect on the nation's opinions.

Why would it? Trump's appeal is not a logic puzzle that can be solved by intellect. 40% of America is looking at a ludicrously uninformed, remarkably corrupt raging blowhard and saying "yes, we are voting for him BECAUSE he is a ludicrously uninformed, remarkably corrupt raging blowhard." Those are not bugs to them, they're features. This is a cargo cult election for the right-wing faithful and Trump is executing the rituals to their specifications. "Say 'Constitution.' Punch a brown person. Call a Demoncrat filthy names. Tell us about the wars you'll start. Stomp on the inferiors who don't think like us." He checks these boxes and they respond, like Pavlov's dog.

Last night I had the distinct lack of pleasure to hear my mother, holding a water bottle with a MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN! cozy around it, discuss why it was so important to get Trump elected. This was at a viewing for a deceased relative-in-law, and she said of him "you know he was a Trumper too, we were talking about the Constitution together days before he died." And I just kept my mouth shut -- this was not the time or place for a kerfluffle -- but I cringed inside as I noted that her political prion disease had reached an even more advanced stage.

This is what Americans are up against. It's not reason, it's not logic, it's tribalism. It's geopolitics reduced to a simple sports team fandom level, US GOOD, THEM BAD, and the refs are crooked even when called penalties on the home team are obvious and blatant.
posted by delfin at 5:53 AM on September 21, 2016 [46 favorites]

I don't pay a lot of attention to polls but this is worth noting.

Military Times: This poll of the U.S. military has Gary Johnson tied with Donald Trump in the race for president

Conducted in September, it is the first scientific breakdown of voting preferences among service members, and includes more than 2,200 responses from active-duty troops. And it shows a very different race than the one playing out on the broader national stage.

Among the entire military force, Trump leads Johnson 37.6 percent to 36.5 percent, within the study’s 2 percent margin of error. Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton trails as a distant third-place choice, with only 16.3 percent of troops' support.[...]

Perhaps most notably, there is a sharp split between enlisted personnel and the military's officer corps, which directs day-to-day operations and implements policy. Among the officers surveyed, Johnson is the clear choice, commanding support from 38.6 percent of respondents. Clinton actually outpaces Trump in that group, with nearly 28 percent support for the former secretary of State compared to the New York business mogul’s 26 percent.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:56 AM on September 21, 2016 [12 favorites]

The Hill: Time for true Christians to consider the Democratic Party: These issues are important and merit debate, but it’s time to end the stalemate and set these differences aside and work on issues that aren’t so polarizing, such as poverty, human rights, gun control, and climate change. Christians should work to bridge the gap between people who genuinely want to do more good, no matter what their religious affiliation.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:00 AM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

El corrido de Hillary Clinton , by Vicente Fernandez
posted by dhruva at 6:01 AM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

Ali Vitali: Team Trump now selling sweatbands to "stay healthy with Trump" after his physical. ...yes, really.

So you can be deplorable AND fit.



Joss Whedon Has Launched A Campaign To Get You To Vote — And Not For Trump

Today, Whedon is launching Save the Day, a super PAC designed to get as many people to the ballot box as possible on Nov. 8 — and he’s made a series of short-form videos to accompany the campaign. The first, entitled “Important,” features 27 actors — including Robert Downey Jr., Scarlett Johansson, Mark Ruffalo, Julianne Moore, Keegan-Michael Key, Don Cheadle, James Franco, Jesse Williams, Cobie Smulders, Martin Sheen, and Neil Patrick Harris — earnestly imploring people to vote, while also making fun of political ads featuring a parade of celebrities.[...]

While the video never mentions Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton or Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump by name, in it, Cheadle stresses the importance of keeping “a racist, abusive coward who could permanently damage the fabric of our society” out of office. And Hamilton’s Leslie Odom Jr. wonders aloud why we’d want to “give nuclear weapons to a man whose signature move is firing things.” In short, Whedon’s super PAC makes no secret that they would prefer people vote for Clinton.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:06 AM on September 21, 2016 [78 favorites]

This election, regardless of how it turns out, has already deeply shaken my faith in the United States. My parents live close to the U.S. and when I visit them we quite often go over the river for dinner or to shop, but if Trump wins I don't think I would cross the border for any reason.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:10 AM on September 21, 2016 [12 favorites]

In response to Trump's tweet, "Once again someone we were told is ok turns out to be a terrorist who wants to destroy our country & its people- how did he get thru system?", Angus Johnston responds, "It was a really crowded primary." Burn!

Aw, the chain of responses to that tweet of people being like, "That was an awesome tweet" and him being like, "I know, right?? Thank you!!" is pretty sweet.
posted by aka burlap at 6:15 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

In an interview with some WBFK NC station, Trump said that second-generation immigrants are worse than the first.

And here I was thinking that, as a white guy, I'd go through this whole election without Trump insulting me directly.
posted by VTX at 6:20 AM on September 21, 2016 [30 favorites]

This election, regardless of how it turns out, has already deeply shaken my faith in the United States. My parents live close to the U.S. and when I visit them we quite often go over the river for dinner or to shop, but if Trump wins I don't think I would cross the border for any reason.

Sadly, I was just talking to my husband this morning that if the worst does indeed happen--and my faith that it won't is waning just a bit--that barring family emergencies, I'll not be going back to the US for a while. The States have felt less and less like home in the past few years, even before this. Canada isn't perfect either, but this country is likely where I will live out the rest of my life and I've ramped up my citizenship application.

For who are interested, I finally got my absentee ballot! I'll be filling that sucker out and sending it in ASAP. Whew!
posted by Kitteh at 6:23 AM on September 21, 2016 [11 favorites]

Question for those who have been following Sec. Clinton's speeches at rallies: does she brag, at all, about rally attendance? I'be been to two Trump rallies, and his line seems to be "There are thousands of people who couldn't get in because this arena is so packed." But yesterday, he also said "Hillary's rally up here (meaning the one in Greensboro, North Carolina) only had two or three hundred people."

So, I had staff at the Clinton Rally, and they took pictures. There were definitely 10,000 people there, easy. This was confirmed by my staff and we are professional organizers and advance-logistics professionals who have experience in estimating crowd size. And there actually was a line of people who couldn't get into the venue,which I know because one of my staff was in that line and took a picture.

Trump's rally, though, was held at the Duplin County Events Center. The Center has seating for about 2,000 people, and room for another 2-3,000 people standing-room on the floor. The seats were all full, the floor was not. So, I'm thinking, generously, 4,000 people at this event. One of the local speakers called it the biggest event the town has ever seen, and that is probably not an unreasonable claim.

Kenansville has a population of a little under nine hundred people. Just a smidge over fifty percent are white. So, essentially, all the white people from Kenansville and several surrounding towns were there. There were maybe twenty African Americans there, at the most.

So, Trump claimed, at this rally, "There must be 10,000 people here today!" Which is, of course, impossible. But inflating rally attendance is a Thing with Trump. I have never heard of Sec. Clinton making any attendance claims. Does she? But anyway, everything Trump says is a lie. He had genuinely impressive turnout: over four times the population of the town! But he still had to lie about it, with an impossible number that was twice what the venue could hold.

Venue capacity is an incredibly easy number to verify. There had to be dozens of people there who knew that arena only held 5,000 people at maximum capacity. Trump needs these stupid little lies. He enjoys lying to his supporters and they don't seem to mind it. It does make me nervous with all of his "rigged election" talk. These people will be happy to fool themselves when the time comes.
posted by Cookiebastard at 6:24 AM on September 21, 2016 [38 favorites]

Joss Whedon Has Launched A Campaign To Get You To Vote — And Not For Trump

It started as nice and kind of clever in that self-aware way that I like. Then at 2:15 I laughed so hard I nearly died!
posted by VTX at 6:25 AM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

From TFA, Joss Whedon talks about being afraid of conflict and having left Twitter but coming back into the spotlight because of Bernie Bros and Michelle Obama's "lullaby" to the nation:

“You cannot be afraid that people will not like you. The people with extreme beliefs are willing to yell until the people with more complex belief systems just want to go away."

This statement is very accurate. The article that goes along with the video is worth reading, but if tl;dr, there are going to be new Whedon videos all the way up until the election.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:32 AM on September 21, 2016 [18 favorites]

It started as nice and kind of clever in that self-aware way that I like. Then at 2:15 I laughed so hard I nearly died!

Ditto. I'm still laughing.
posted by Jalliah at 6:33 AM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well, to the suprise of nobody, Trump stood up the Ukraine.
posted by Talez at 6:34 AM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

Best campaign promise EVER. And the first time I've ever posted anything remotely political to facebook.
posted by kythuen at 6:35 AM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

I uh.... that video took a turn somewhere I was not expecting. Okay.

I'm laughing still, but that was not where I was expecting that to go.
posted by Archelaus at 6:38 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well, to the suprise of nobody, Trump stood up the Ukraine.

When you're dating Putin, you can't take M̶o̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶R̶i̶n̶g̶w̶a̶l̶d̶ Ukraine to the dance.
posted by chris24 at 6:39 AM on September 21, 2016

Whedon video spoiler:

Make America great again. With Mark's peen.
posted by Defying Gravity at 6:42 AM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

collecting $11.1 million, much of which was directed to digital ads.

A huge number of which were on Breitbart. But we only know that through secondary analytics sources, not public filing. So it could well be that Giles-Parscale is a useful vehicle to avoid transparency over digital ad spending.

As with all things Trump, assume grift.
posted by holgate at 6:48 AM on September 21, 2016 [13 favorites]

It started as nice and kind of clever in that self-aware way that I like. Then at 2:15 I laughed so hard I nearly died!

At 1:37 (-1:24) when President Bartlett comes out and tells us "we cannot pretend that both sides are equally unfavourable" all I could think was "Yes, Mr President".
posted by Talez at 6:50 AM on September 21, 2016 [24 favorites]

Trump Foundation Update: The missing portrait has been found!

Spoiler: It was at the Mar-a-Lago the whole time! It's great to see the Trump Foundation helping out this thousandaire in need with this generous gift!
posted by Talez at 6:58 AM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

I prefer the Japanese term 'Nisei' for all children of first-generation citizens.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:00 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump's rally, though, was held at the Duplin County Events Center.

If Donald Trump is elected president, I'll at least be able to watch my country slip away knowing that at some point, this process made Donald Trump go to fucking Duplin County. I lived within easy driving distance of Duplin County for much of my life and I'm not 100% positive I've been there. The town names ring a bell, but I can't put my finger on a precise time I was there. Were all the venues in Kinston taken? Nothing in Goldsboro? How does this happen? It feels surreal.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:01 AM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

Question for those who have been following Sec. Clinton's speeches at rallies: does she brag, at all, about rally attendance?

Nope. This is totally just a Trump thing - to make claims about the bigness, to make bigness an important thing. A contest of bignesses. That makes sense to him.
posted by Golem XIV at 7:03 AM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

So there's a Toronto Star reporter on Twitter by the name of Daniel Dale. He's their Washington correspondent.

Every day, amongst other things, he's been posting every falsehood Trump has spoken of that day.

September 20th
September 19th
September 18th
September 17th

Between him, David Fahrenthold, Sopan Deb, Jenna Johnson, and Katy Tur they're doing God's work.
posted by Talez at 7:19 AM on September 21, 2016 [39 favorites]

Today, Whedon is launching Save the Day, a super PAC designed to get as many people to the ballot box as possible on Nov. 8

He should have called it Big Damn Heroes.
posted by Gelatin at 7:24 AM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

The lousy reason I didn't vote in 1968 - and why Sanders supporters shouldn't fall for it

Those of us in the student antiwar movement see Humphrey as profoundly corrupt, profoundly tainted by his support for the war. We hate Nixon, but in truth we have not experienced what a right-wing government can do. We have come of age and to activism in the years since 1960 — so we only know Kennedy and Johnson as presidents, we have only experienced a liberal domination of national politics, and, more often than not, the policies we are protesting are the policies of liberal Democrats.

In the fall of 1968, we experience a great failure of political imagination...

We failed to understand Nixon and what was at stake
Looking back, we young idealists and activists were not so much wrong in our assessments of Humphrey as we were totally wrong in our assessment of whether it matters if a corporate center liberal is elected over an insecure, unstable, right-wing candidate who does not respect the Constitution.

Our failure was not in our assessment of Humphrey but in our failure to understand Nixon and what was at stake. We could have turned the close election in favor of Humphrey. We could not have moved the election results by 5 points, but we certainly could have moved the needed one...

Some supporters of Bernie Sanders seem intent on making the same mistakes we did in that fateful year of 1968. Some of the pioneering, innovative protesters who have created Black Lives Matter seem to share our 1968 disdain for electoral politics, as if elections and who is in power could be ignored in the struggle for profound social change.

Others, the perpetual Hillary haters of the left, once again suffer from a profound failure of imagination. Unable to imagine how bad it could become, they preach about refusing to be forced again to “settle for the lesser of two evils.”
posted by peacheater at 7:24 AM on September 21, 2016 [56 favorites]

Daniel Dale is doing a sterling job reporting on this election. He has practice covering ludicrous corrupt politicians since he previously reported on Rob Ford.
posted by winna at 7:25 AM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

And Don King just dropped n----r in his rambling, incoherent mess of an introduction of Trump.
posted by Talez at 7:26 AM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Hilary mentioned "jibber jabber" in a statement - I wonder if Mr. T is in her camp?
posted by thelonius at 7:33 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

What terrifies me is, if Trump were running a halfway competent campaign, he would be winning. And I don't think that's because of Clinton being unlikeable.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 7:34 AM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

Ah sorry, I was thinking of the Garrison Keilor piece I read: The woman who does not conceal her own intelligence is a fine American tradition, going back to Anne Bradstreet and Harriet Beecher Stowe and my ancestor Prudence Crandall, but none has been subjected to the steady hectoring and jibber-jabber that Mrs. Clinton has
posted by thelonius at 7:37 AM on September 21, 2016

So how long until Donald Trump sues Don King and they go spiraling together into the Great Material Continuum?
posted by zennie at 7:40 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh, another point about Giles-Parscale is that they're already doing digital work for TrumpOrg properties, which is very different from the Clinton digital campaign team. That stuff gets noticed by former campaign managers.
posted by holgate at 7:41 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Talez: "Every day, amongst other things, he's been posting every falsehood Trump has spoken of that day"

Also available on the Star site in non screen shot form.
posted by Mitheral at 7:45 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Small point of information: it's Ukraine, not the Ukraine.

Right. Back in the 1990s they sold their definite article to an Ohio State University.
 
posted by Herodios at 7:47 AM on September 21, 2016 [34 favorites]

Hey, they found Trump's other 'charity' painting! It's at his resort.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:51 AM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

What terrifies me is, if Trump were running a halfway competent campaign, he would be winning. And I don't think that's because of Clinton being unlikeable.

I don't know, you run a 2 decades long smear campaign against anyone, it's going to have some impact.

The nice thing about Hillary is she governs like a sonofabitch, so I imagine her favorables will shoot up like a rocket after she gets elected and starts getting some shit done with her shiny new Senate.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:53 AM on September 21, 2016 [31 favorites]

Small point of information: it's Ukraine, not the Ukraine.

Right. Back in the 1990s they sold their definite article to an Ohio State University.

I thought it was sent overseas to help out the Iraq, and everywhere like such as.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:53 AM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hey, they found Trump's other 'charity' painting! It's at his resort.

Given all the investigations that he's stirred up, there's got to be a nonzero chance he ends up broke or in prison, right?

Please?
posted by leotrotsky at 7:54 AM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

The nice thing about Hillary is she governs like a sonofabitch, so I imagine her favorables will shoot up like a rocket after she gets elected and starts getting some shit done with her shiny new Senate.

And rather than some of the giants who have previously occupied the position, we have Paul Ryan as the Speaker of the House and leading the Republican obstructionism.
posted by Gelatin at 7:55 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

What terrifies me is, if Trump were running a halfway competent campaign, he would be winning. And I don't think that's because of Clinton being unlikeable.

If you magically erased Trump from time and history* and replaced him with a semi-sentient jellyfish in a three-piece suit -- say, Jeb! -- Hillary would be looking at an uphill battle right now. It would provide political cover for squishy middle-dwellers to vote for Not Hillary and not expect nuclear annihilation and the collapse of the dollar to follow directly. The Tribe would squawk but would hold their noses to vote for Jeb! because otherwise that Dangerous Criminal Communist Anti-Semitic Invalid would get in.

The nice thing about Hillary is she governs like a sonofabitch, so I imagine her favorables will shoot up like a rocket after she gets elected and starts getting some shit done with her shiny new Senate.

Oh, I'm sure that a 51-49 Senate will reliably produce at least one or two Democrats who are Concerned by Hillary's Improprieties and Executive Overreach and The Will of the People and will stymie Senate progress of many items of substance, then throw the scraps to the House and watch the Gohmerts claw and scratch each other in hunger and fury.

* if you are capable of that then WHY HAVEN'T YOU
posted by delfin at 7:57 AM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

Here's video of Don King accidentally dropping the N-word while introducing Donald Trump at a Cleveland church

He was repeatedly saying negro and then slipped. Trump's behind him and laughs at it.
posted by chris24 at 7:59 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

America loves women like Hillary Clinton–as long as they’re not asking for a promotion:

Public opinion of Clinton has followed a fixed pattern throughout her career. Her public approval plummets whenever she applies for a new position. Then it soars when she gets the job.

posted by kirkaracha at 8:01 AM on September 21, 2016 [12 favorites]

And rather than some of the giants who have previously occupied the position, we have Paul Ryan as the Speaker of the House and leading the Republican obstructionism.

God has that guy fallen from my previously low estimation of his character. (Mitt, on the other hand. Good on you, mate!)

I now can only picture this fella when thinking about Profiles in Courage Paul Ryan
posted by leotrotsky at 8:02 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

This poll of the U.S. military has Gary Johnson tied with Donald Trump in the race for president

The Gary Johnson who wants to reduce military spending by 43%? K.
posted by xyzzy at 8:02 AM on September 21, 2016 [18 favorites]

CNN is now normalizing fascism, openly questioning the rule of law and the civil rights protections enshrined in the US Constitution.

CNN was running a chyron that said "COMING UP: Does Bombing Suspect Deserve Due Process" (image in link) and actually had a segment debating it.
posted by chris24 at 8:03 AM on September 21, 2016 [35 favorites]

Of course he laughed. Sopan Deb dredged up this little gem from the past:

"@EDM___HEAD: @realDonaldTrump @EdandBev lyin ass nigga" Why does Paula D get destroyed and you can use the "N" word so freely, asshole?

posted by Superplin at 8:04 AM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

CNN was running a chyron that said "COMING UP: Does Bombing Suspect Deserve Due Process" (image in link) and actually had a segment debating it.

funny how "The Constitution is not a suicide pact" disappears at gun control debate time
posted by thelonius at 8:06 AM on September 21, 2016 [12 favorites]

I've only phone naked from home

Election threads and tequila do not mix! For the record, I am clothed when I phone BANK from home.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:06 AM on September 21, 2016 [17 favorites]

Hilary mentioned "jibber jabber" in a statement - I wonder if Mr. T is in her camp?

Isn't it time for a candidate who can pity the fool?
posted by rocketman at 8:08 AM on September 21, 2016 [14 favorites]

That 1968 piece is important because it reminds us how easy it is to underestimate the state in times of liberal rule.

I think that's a big part of what's going on in the non-anarchist never-Hillary left - we are failing to understand the real brutality of state power. We think we get it because we are familiar with the prison system, police killings, drone bombings, surveillance, etc, but somehow we think that we've seen the limit of the state.

Pessimistic imagination is really, really important in understanding the state (and capitalism). If the state can be brutal and remain legitimate, it has no incentive not to be brutal. A Trump victory moves the window on state brutality - we'll have a leader backed by a violent mob.

I often think to myself, "Why isn't the state more violent? Killing a few protesters over the course of six months or a year would shut down dissent pretty hard. Shuttering press offices and arresting the journalists would take care of a lot of journalism. And do you think that the state gives more of a damn about American lives than Pakistani lives, for instance? Not really, and we're certainly ready to kill Pakistanis. "

Part of it is that the people don't have a lot of power - let them march around and go home, let them print whatever they like, it doesn't make a difference. But part of it is the fear of delegitimizing the state - if the cops kill a few people at Black Lives Matter protests, it looks bad internationally and creates disaffection among the elites.

We're on the edge of a knife. We're getting ready to elect a man - backed by a mob - who doesn't care what the international community thinks and who has no meaningful ties to rich liberals who might be unsettled by, say, putting people in camps.

Everything that our usual left does is predicated on the idea that they won't kill us in the street and that our judicial system can be worked, given enough time and effort, to generate something like an honest result. Everything the left press does is predicated on the idea that journalists operating in the US will not be jailed or murdered. Every method we have is about moral suasion - get out there and protest so that the cameras, the state and the people can see your anger and distress. How is that going to shake out when people start getting shot by the state for protesting? When we go the Pinochet route, the Operation Condor route, the freikorps route?

We might usefully look at the post-Reconstruction South, where there was intense state and state-complicit violence against ordinary citizens. It's not impossible in our history, and it works - works in spite of brave individuals, works in spite of resistance.
posted by Frowner at 8:08 AM on September 21, 2016 [81 favorites]

Election threads and tequila do not mix!

Oh, I'm pretty sure tequila is mandatory for entrance to the debate thread.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:09 AM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

Oh, I'm sure that a 51-49 Senate will reliably produce at least one or two Democrats who are Concerned by Hillary's Improprieties and Executive Overreach and The Will of the People and will stymie Senate progress of many items of substance, then throw the scraps to the House and watch the Gohmerts claw and scratch each other in hunger and fury.

Well, Evan Bayh is pretty much a shoo-in for Indiana's Senate seat, so, yeah.
posted by indubitable at 8:09 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Don King, who once stomped a man to death, used the n-word while introducing Donald Trump, the Republican nominee. This is the new normal.
posted by chris24 at 8:09 AM on September 21, 2016 [10 favorites]

Perhaps I'm just overly pollyanna-ish, but I just can't seriously see the concern over "just wait til next time when the Republicans run someone with Trump's unhinged fascist appeal, minus the ignorance and incompetence". Maybe I'm just deluding myself to try and stay sane, but I can't see the basket of deplorables embracing a competent candidate that tries to capture their votes and harness the current lunatic zeitgeist successfully. I could certainly be wrong, but Trump really strikes me as a terrifying anomaly, rather than a winning new template for the Republicans. Still, the beast needs to be destroyed.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:12 AM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think that's a big part of what's going on in the non-anarchist never-Hillary left - we are failing to understand the real brutality of state power. We think we get it because we are familiar with the prison system, police killings, drone bombings, surveillance, etc, but somehow we think that we've seen the limit of the state.

Exactly. It's a failure of empathic imagination, if that is a phrase that makes sense.
posted by winna at 8:14 AM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

Democrats' debate advice to Clinton: Let Trump screw up:

“He’ll do it himself,” said Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.). “There’s never been a time where he’s talked for longer than 30 seconds where he’s managed to say anything. He just says nothing. He’ll say the same empty phrases over and over again, and I think it will become obvious after an hour and a half.”

posted by kirkaracha at 8:15 AM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

Well, Evan Bayh is pretty much a shoo-in for Indiana's Senate seat, so, yeah.

Come on. Evan Bayh wouldn't play spoiler ...it would impact his presidential ambitions* too much.

*Why else do you think he's headed back to the Senate?
posted by leotrotsky at 8:16 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

I could certainly be wrong, but Trump really strikes me as a terrifying anomaly, rather than a winning new template for the Republicans.

None of his ideas are new. None. He's just saying the same kinds of things the Republicans have been quietly working toward for thirty years in a tactless buffoonish way.
posted by winna at 8:17 AM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

“He’ll do it himself,” said Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.). “There’s never been a time where he’s talked for longer than 30 seconds where he’s managed to say anything. He just says nothing. He’ll say the same empty phrases over and over again, and I think it will become obvious after an hour and a half.”

Consider Donald Trump's interview with the WaPo's Editorial Board

RYAN: You [MUFFLED] mentioned a few minutes earlier here that you would knock ISIS. You’ve mentioned it many times. You’ve also mentioned the risk of putting American troop in a danger area. If you could substantially reduce the risk of harm to ground troops, would you use a battlefield nuclear weapon to take out ISIS?

TRUMP: I don’t want to use, I don’t want to start the process of nuclear. Remember the one thing that everybody has said, I’m a counterpuncher. Rubio hit me. Bush hit me. When I said low energy, he’s a low-energy individual, he hit me first. I spent, by the way he spent 18 million dollars’ worth of negative ads on me. That’s putting [MUFFLED]…

RYAN: This is about ISIS. You would not use a tactical nuclear weapon against ISIS?

[CROSSTALK]

TRUMP: I’ll tell you one thing, this is a very good looking group of people here. Could I just go around so I know who the hell I’m talking to?

posted by mikelieman at 8:21 AM on September 21, 2016 [32 favorites]

Don King?

Only in America.
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:22 AM on September 21, 2016

Small point of information: it's Ukraine, not the Ukraine.

Right. Back in the 1990s they sold their definite article to an Ohio State University.

I thought it was sent overseas to help out the Iraq, and everywhere like such as.

In all seriousness the nomenclature used to refer to Ukraine is a political issue. If you say The Ukraine it's taken by Ukrainians (for better or worse) as you referring to Ukraine as a region in Russia, as opposed to Ukraine, the independent, sovereign nation.
posted by dis_integration at 8:23 AM on September 21, 2016 [77 favorites]

“He’ll do it himself,” said Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.). “There’s never been a time where he’s talked for longer than 30 seconds where he’s managed to say anything. He just says nothing. He’ll say the same empty phrases over and over again, and I think it will become obvious after an hour and a half.”

But she hasn't considered the possibility that he'll knuckle down, study hard, and bone up on the deb-AHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
posted by leotrotsky at 8:25 AM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Thank you sincerely for the clarification, dis_integration. That is good information to know.
posted by winna at 8:27 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

OMG, Winna! It's The dis_integration.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:28 AM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Some positive HRC walking and talking points for you.

The Progressive Case for Hillary Clinton Is Pretty Overwhelming
-- Kevin Drum, Mother Jones, 19sep 2016

[A] lot of liberals . . . want a positive argument in favor of voting for Clinton, not just a negative one for voting against Trump. . . .

[N]o successful politician is ever perfect. Franklin D. Roosevelt signed on to lots of compromises that liberals detested. Ronald Reagan did the same with conservatives. Clinton will too. There are just too many competing interests in a pluralistic country like America to expect anything else. But all that said, the liberal case for Clinton remains pretty overwhelming.

The following list is by no means exhaustive, but here it is:

• In 1995, despite strong pressure from diplomats and White House aides to remain low-key, She went to China and said, "Human rights are women's rights, and women's rights are human rights."
• She worked her heart out for health care reform in 1993.
• She now supports Obamacare, and supports expanding it.
• She supports increasing the federal minimum wage to $12 per hour. This is good for workers, but less likely to have downsides than a national level of $15.
• She supported comprehensive immigration reform in 2007 and continues to support it.
• She was a prime mover behind the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997, and was a key figure in finding compromises that allowed it to pass after partisan bickering nearly sank it.
• Sen. Sherrod Brown: "As much as we want to move this country forward, you gotta cajole, persuade, work with, whatever it takes. And I think she does that better than about anybody I know."
• She supports LGBT rights.
• She worked with Attorney General Janet Reno to create the Justice Department's Office on Violence Against Women.
• She was one of the prime movers behind SCHIP, the State Children's Health Insurance Program, eventually signed into law by Bill Clinton.
• She pushed the Adoption and Safe Families Act through Congress.
• She was instrumental in the founding of the Center for American Progress.
• She has been the target of countless baseless attacks but has always rebounded and kept on working anyway.
• President Barack Obama: "What sets Hillary apart is that through it all, She just keeps on going, and She doesn't stop caring, and She doesn't stop trying, and She never stops fighting for us—even if we haven't always appreciated it."
• She voted against both of George Bush's tax giveaways to the rich.
• She favors closing the carried-interest loophole.
• Jill Abramson, who covered Bill and Hillary Clinton critically for more than two decades, first in the Washington bureau of the Wall Street Journal and later at the New York Times, says this about Hillary Clinton: "Hillary Clinton is fundamentally honest and trustworthy…There are no instances I know of where Clinton was doing the bidding of a donor or benefactor."
• She supports legislation to end racial profiling at all levels of government.
• She wants to clean up the toxic lead remaining in soil, water, and paint.
• As secretary of state, She was tireless in traveling the world to repair the damage to our reputation from the Bush years.
• German chancellor Angela Merkel: "I admire her strategic thinking…Whenever I was able to work with Hillary Clinton, it was a great pleasure."
• She wants to reduce mandatory minimum sentences for nonviolent drug offenses.
• She voted for TARP.
• She was the principal author of the sanctions on Iran that brought them to the bargaining table.
• She then began the secret negotiations with Iran that eventually led to the treaty stopping their work on nuclear weapons.
• She supports Dodd-Frank.
• At the age of 29 She co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families advocacy group.
• She supports a higher tax rate on the very rich.
• She supports the Paris Climate Agreement and has endorsed a plan to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 30 percent by 2025 and 80 percent by 2050.
• She wants to restore voting rights to felons who have served their sentences.
• She was one of the original co-sponsors of the Employee Free Choice Act, which would have implemented card check.
• She has literally spent her entire adult life advocating for children and women.
• Sen. Barbara Boxer: "She is authentic. Hillary is Hillary, and She's not going to become a cheerleader with pom-poms[sic]."
• She supports automatic voter registration at age 18.
• She has a lifetime score of 94 percent from the AFL-CIO and 98 percent from AFSCME.
• She pushed through State Department regulations that gave same-sex couples most of the same rights as straight couples.
• She supports universal pre-K.
• She has set a goal of producing one-third of the nation's electricity from renewable sources by 2027, three years before Obama's deadline.
• She wants to expand home visiting programs, one of the best known ways to improve child development.
• She wants to spend $275 billion (over five years) on rebuilding infrastructure.
• She was instrumental in securing help for New York's 9/11 first responders.
• In the Senate, She fought Republican attempts to privatize Social Security.
• She supports net neutrality.
• She would nominate liberal judges to the Supreme Court.
• She would also nominate liberal judges to the lower courts.
• She supports a plan that allows people over 55 to buy into Medicare.
• She co-sponsored the Mental Health Parity and Addiction Equity Act of 2008.
• She is pro-choice and supports the right of all women to have access to affordable contraception and safe and legal abortion.
• She wants to prevent pharmaceutical companies from jacking up the price of long-standing drugs.
• She supports the addition of a public option to Obamacare.
• She wants to overturn Citizens United.
• She has fought for decades for increased funding for HIV treatment and research.
• She wants to restore the portions of the Voting Rights Act that were recently struck down by the Supreme Court.
• She supports Obama's efforts to normalize relations with Cuba.
• She wants to beef up antitrust enforcement.
• She worked to ensure ratification of the New START treaty with Russia.
• She wants to impose a tax on high-frequency trading.
• She's a big supporter of the Environmental Protection Agency's Clean Power Plan to regulate carbon emissions from power plants.
• In the Senate, She had a very good reputation as someone who could work across the aisle to get things done. Her word was always good.
• Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse on his Republican colleagues in the Senate: "Two of them, her very prominent antagonists in this election, and one looked over at the other and said, 'Boy, She's good.' The other one leaned back and said, 'Yeah, She's really good.' And that's the Hillary that they know. Not the talking points Hillary or the caricature, but the real person."
• She wants to tighten regulation of the shadow banking system, one of the prime causes of the crash of 2008.
• She wants to strengthen the Volcker Rule.
• She supports DACA and DAPA, the "mini-DREAM" executive orders.
• She supports 12 weeks of paid leave for new mothers or to recover from a serious illness.
• As first lady, She fought for the Family Medical Leave Act. As a senator, She worked to expand FMLA to cover wounded soldiers and their families.
• She has long supported gender equality efforts around the world.
• She has legendary stamina and endurance.
• Sen. Al Franken: "She is the toughest, most experienced, hardest-working person I know."
• As secretary of state, she personally negotiated the 2012 ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
• She has a 100 percent rating from both NARAL and Planned Parenthood.
• In the Senate, She co-sponsored the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act.

Et, as they say, cetera. For clarity and brevity (ha!) I've edited out some purely defensive points and a few others.
 
posted by Herodios at 8:29 AM on September 21, 2016 [196 favorites]

I would live to think that Trump screwing things up, prompted or unprompted, would count against him in any way, but let's face it at this point probably not.
posted by Artw at 8:30 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

What's the over/under in minutes before she "Bless your heart"'s him?
posted by mikelieman at 8:34 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm just hoping he has a Rick Lazio moment. Doesn't even have to say a word to telegraph the kind of contempt that loses voters
posted by Mchelly at 8:36 AM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

In advance of the debate, Clinton's surrogates need to blanket the media with admonitions not to grade Trump on a curve, and set the expectation that the media will (and of course they will).
posted by Gelatin at 8:40 AM on September 21, 2016 [10 favorites]

I'm just hoping he has a Rick Lazio moment. Doesn't even have to say a word to telegraph the kind of contempt that loses voters

Yeah, this is my hope and bet as well. He doesn't respond well to women challenging him. He couldn't help but go after Fiorina when she dared speak in the primary debate, and Megyn Kelly when she asked a tough question. He'll do/say something that offends. And while it won't make a difference to his supporters, it probably will to the voters he needs to get over the top.
posted by chris24 at 8:45 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

In advance of the debate, Clinton's surrogates need to blanket the media with admonitions not to grade Trump on a curve, and set the expectation that the media will (and of course they will).

Prediction: The media will declare Trump the winner of one of the first two debates. Probably the second.
They'll do this to maintain the "tight race" story that benefits them financially and also because they know Donald will drop out of the third debate if he gets slaughtered in the first two.
posted by rocket88 at 8:46 AM on September 21, 2016 [9 favorites]

He'll do/say something that offends. And while it won't make a difference to his supporters, it probably will to the voters he needs to get over the top.

At this point, I have to believe that if he does say something offensive and sexist, it will only improve his standing among undecideds, enough to put him over the top. American society is just too misogynistic; the worse he behaves toward her, the more they'll like it.

The American public is essentially like a family that bands together to justify and support an abusive and authoritarian father, while shunning the family member that points out his abuse.
posted by happyroach at 8:51 AM on September 21, 2016 [14 favorites]

Yeah, I fear there is a large bloc of voters out there who will respond positively to anything Trump does to display his "dominance" over Clinton, even (especially?) if it's the debate equivalent of making fart noises. "See how Trump put Clinton in her place? That's the sort of leader we need dealing with those shitty little countries who think they're better than we are!"
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:57 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

American society is just too misogynistic

I agree, but I think he already has those votes. He needs college educated and women, which is where he's underperforming Romney among white voters. I guess I have hope in women, LGBTQ, and minorities saving us from white men this election.
posted by chris24 at 8:58 AM on September 21, 2016 [16 favorites]

The American public is essentially like a family that bands together to justify and support an abusive and authoritarian father, while shunning the family member that points out his abuse.

Well, except for all the times that it didn't do that. (Or did I just imagine that Obama actually won in 2008 and 2012?)
posted by Atom Eyes at 8:59 AM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

chris24: " He doesn't respond well to women challenging him. He couldn't help but go after Fiorina when she dared speak in the primary debate, and Megyn Kelly when she asked a tough question."

Just look at his reaction to Ghazala Khan just standing there not saying anything.
posted by Mitheral at 9:05 AM on September 21, 2016 [32 favorites]

TRUMP: I don’t want to use, I don’t want to start the process of nuclear. Remember the one thing that everybody has said, I’m a counterpuncher. Rubio hit me. Bush hit me. When I said low energy, he’s a low-energy individual, he hit me first.

TRUMP: Mommy, mommy, Marco and Jebby hit me!
I'm gonna hit'em back! And I'm gonna use my nuclears for it, that'll teach'em!

TRUMP'S MOM: Slooow and easy, Donald! Put down the thermonuclear device, NOW!
posted by sour cream at 9:05 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Or did I just imagine that Obama actually won in 2008 and 2012?

Exactly. I just don't think the country that elected Obama twice by huge margins is going to elect Trump. How many more racists can he bring out that didn't come out to vote against the black guy? And does the increase offset the losses among women, college educated, and even worse performance among minorities? Plus the electorate is projected to be 2% less white than 2012.
posted by chris24 at 9:07 AM on September 21, 2016 [19 favorites]

Well, except for all the times that it didn't do that. (Or did I just imagine that Obama actually won in 2008 and 2012?)

Yeah, I think it's really easy to fall into this unhealthy and inaccurate narrative. For starters, Trump doesn't do better (with the general electorate) when he says offensive things. In fact, his nadir in this race (so far) came in the first week of August when he said several offensive things all in one week. The idea that saying offensive things actually helps Trump may have been true in the pre-primary campaign, but hasn't worked for him since we've moved into semi-serious general election mode.

It's reasonable to despair for America because we have let Trump get this far, and even if he loses, it's a national disgrace that 40ish percent of the electorate support him. But when Trump shows his true Trump-self, and people see that, his support goes down, not up. The biggest problem we face is making sure the media does not trip over themselves to not call an idiotic, dangerous racist an idiotic, dangerous racist. It seems like the closer we get to the election, the more serious the coverage is getting, and that is good news for the truth and common sense, two things which are not good for Trump, and have been bad for him throughout the general campaign.
posted by skewed at 9:11 AM on September 21, 2016 [17 favorites]

All that being said, turnout is key. Ds have the edge if their voters go vote. I'm definitely not saying it's a done deal. Gotta keep working.
posted by chris24 at 9:14 AM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

As Clinton and Warren began as Republicans, I am personally hoping for a Million Flowers Bloom.
posted by effluvia at 9:15 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Don King, who once stomped a man to death, used the n-word while introducing Donald Trump, the Republican nominee. This is the new normal.

Whoa now, that's a totally unfair oversimplification! He also shot another man in the back for attempting to steal from one of his illegal gambling operations. That man's name, incidentally, was Hillary Brown.

So here we have someone named Donald who once killed someone named Hillary, endorsing someone named Donald running for president against someone named Hillary. Interesting.

One thing Don King has in common with Trump is that pretty much no one who has ever worked for him has had anything good to say about the experience, and indeed, many have had bad things to say, often in a court of law, particularly about non-payment. Another thing is that they've both been linked to the Gambino crime family.

And King's speech, of course, was essentially, "Racial integration is a fairytale. The lesson is: Never try." So they've got that in common, too.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:16 AM on September 21, 2016 [39 favorites]

What's the over/under in minutes before she "Bless your heart"'s him?

This, or something very much like it. I can't help but wonder if the HRC campaign isn't calculated enough to have convened one or several focus groups to try out variations on this theme. Which point during the debate to drop it; which phrase will be most withering, or have the most impact; how do deliver it without coming across as "the teacher no one likes" as someone has said.

This is my hope. She needs a moment, a short, replayable ( a million times) moment that will sum up all of the distance there is between a life-long advocate for social change and a schoolyard bully. The first debate is her one best chance for a knockout blow. Surely they are working their asses off to do this.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:17 AM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

Slooow and easy, Donald! Put down the thermonuclear device, NOW!

60 Minutes is doing a multi-part series on "the nuclear codes." It started last week, showing the nuclear subs and STRATCOM, the United States' Strategic Command. They interviewed Admiral Cecil Haney, the guy tasked with ordering nuclear strikes. He was very clear about the fact that the President has less than 10 minutes to decide on a strike order, and that while he has input on that decision, he will ultimately carry out the President's order. The President does not require the consent of Congress or anyone else to initiate a nuclear strike.

While some of this was especially disconcerting to someone who grew up during the Cold War, it was extremely reassuring to see the very serious professionalism of all the sailors they interviewed and the exacting procedures they train for and follow. For example, the President has to personally give the nuclear sub commander the safe code to unlock the launch keys and there are procedures in place to prevent man-in-the-middle attacks.

But, yeah. We must not let the Orange Cheeto anywhere near that nuclear football.
posted by xyzzy at 9:23 AM on September 21, 2016 [17 favorites]

For reference with the Don King thing, he seemed to be trying to restate something said decades and decades ago - "You're a [n-word] til you die. If you're a poor [n-word], you're a poor [n-word], if you're a rich [n-word], you're a rich [n-word], but you never stop being a [n-word], and if you get to be educated you're just an educated [n-word]." I saw this attributed to John Witherspoon's standup, but I can't find the specific audio. But it's certainly possible, as a lot of black media gets lost, stolen or strayed. It's also possible it was the Last Poets. So if Don King's intention was for me to listen to the Last Poets today and get riled up, mission accomplished.

Anyway, the idea is supposed to be - supposed to be - talking about the situation that in white people's eyes, it doesn't matter what you are as a black person, you're still looked at as the n-word. You're still looked down upon and not accepted into society. Denzel Washington did a 60 minutes interview, I believe, and talked about how he'd walk down the street and a white person saw him and clutched her purse, and he's thinking "I could take out my wallet and crush you with it". Or for visible wealth - Henry Louis Gates, or President Obama. Still looked down upon, treated with undue disrespect.

I don't know what point Don King was trying to make, perhaps because the portion in the linked video was just an excerpt. But at this point in this election, I know it was stupidity, and likely the opposite of what it is supposed to be about. Don King can crawl back into whatever hole he crawled back out of. And take all these crappy black huckster preachers with you.
posted by cashman at 9:26 AM on September 21, 2016 [15 favorites]

Exactly. I just don't think the country that elected Obama twice by huge margins is going to elect Trump. How many more racists can he bring out that didn't come out to vote against the black guy?

The factors in play:

1) When Obama ran, it was against John McCain (establishment Republican) and Mitt Romney (a trust fund that achieved sentience and started wearing clothes). The whackadoos were more impressed with Palin than with McCain, and were vocally unhappy with Romney because he was not One Of Them.

This time, the whackadoos are ecstatic; they have a card-carrying fruitcake atop the ticket who is happy to pander to them loudly and often. Their enthusiasm is at peak levels. Finally, One Of Them is going to be President and he's going to beat the shit out of all the Non-Real Americans! Underestimate that fervor at your peril.

2) Yes, this horrifies much of what remains of the so-called moderate Republican base (read as: the fiscal conservatives, plus the old-time power brokers who are alarmed at whoever they can't control). But many of them will come around to the sound of the Hillary is a Godless Communist Lesbian Ballbreaker Ultraliberal Criminal ISIS Sympathizer drumbeats.

3) The Electoral College still works in Hillary's favor, countering some of the above ominousness. 90% of White Oklahoma can come out to vote for Donald Trump, Slayer Of All That Is Liberal Or Brown and it won't make any more difference than if the usual 70% had voted red.
posted by delfin at 9:27 AM on September 21, 2016 [11 favorites]

WaPo: Donald Trump’s absolutely ridiculous response to The Post’s Trump Foundation story
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:27 AM on September 21, 2016 [15 favorites]

"Wow. What a coincidence. Trump finally wanders into criticizing a police officer and it just happens to be a woman."

"And in doing so he takes the opportunity to say "maybe she choked" over and over a week before the first debate -- against a woman."
posted by chris24 at 9:32 AM on September 21, 2016 [14 favorites]

Well, except for all the times that it didn't do that. (Or did I just imagine that Obama actually won in 2008 and 2012?)

That's what you think now.
But wait until team Trump is done rewriting the history books after winning the election.

First, every legislative trace of Obama will be purged.
Next, the period of Obama's "reign of terror" will be described as a "period of great turmoil" caused by a corrupt and illegal "regime" bent on destroying the US.
Then, Trump will retroactively declare Obama ineligible for the presidency on account of being a Kenyan muslim. And due to crimes against humanity, such as the ACA. And for being uppity in general. (In a parallel trial, HRC will be imprisoned for causing the deaths of 100,000 in Benghazi and elsewhere.)
Finally, Trump will be declared "President No. 44".

So watch out for the slogan "Trump 44!" (and remember you heard it first here on MeFi.)
posted by sour cream at 9:33 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

xyzzy, I think maybe we have evidence of the "Anyone But Clinton" vote in the wild. Even if it means career suicide. Just about out of evens for the day and the sun's barely up.
posted by Silverstone at 9:33 AM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Corey Lewandowski has been suspended (at least temporarily but hopefully for good) from CNN.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 9:34 AM on September 21, 2016 [9 favorites]

CNN:

Trump's down with OPM
Yeah, you know him!

Donald Trump bragged Tuesday there's "nothing like" using other people's money, hours after a report said he used more than $250,000 from his charitable organization to litigate lawsuits against his business interests.

Trump, while calling for building safe zones in Syria financed by Gulf states, vaunted the benefits of doing business with "OPM."

"It's called OPM. I do it all the time in business. It's called other people's money," Trump said. "There's nothing like doing things with other people's money because it takes the risk -- you get a good chunk out of it and it takes the risk."

posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:35 AM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

So watch out for the slogan "Trump 44!" (and remember you heard it first here on MeFi

1/2 of 88 so I guess that's about right.
posted by mazola at 9:35 AM on September 21, 2016 [14 favorites]

I guess I have hope in women, LGBTQ, and minorities saving us from white men this election.

Except this isn't what polling breakdowns are showing us. In the latest Reuters poll, Trump leads by 12 points among white men (45 to 33). Among white women he leads by 12 points (42-30).
The biggest demographic indicator seems to be education level.
posted by rocket88 at 9:35 AM on September 21, 2016

While some of this was especially disconcerting to someone who grew up during the Cold War, it was extremely reassuring to see the very serious professionalism of all the sailors they interviewed and the exacting procedures they train for and follow. For example, the President has to personally give the nuclear sub commander the safe code to unlock the launch keys and there are procedures in place to prevent man-in-the-middle attacks.

I was somewhat reassured by that too. At least until they got to the fresh faced 24 year old guy in charge of studying wind patterns to determine how many people and who would get killed by nuclear fallout. Not that I expected him to be super serious, but he really did give off a casual vibe. However, everyone's outer face isn't indicative of how they feel inside. Many of the people they were talking to smiled at times but you know they're old enough to realize just how horrible things would be at the point they were carrying out their duties authorizing a launch or verifying the presidents voice, or launching weapons that would effectively end the world.

And in watching that, I had a tangential thought that this is why so many young people just are really not getting how close we are to the precipice. And it crystallized in my mind why it bothers me so much when films and television shows (stay with me) like the 100 and other post-apocalyptic media have casts that look like they could just as soon be out on a camping trip. For a while now I think a lot of people have grown up on the idea that a post-apocalyptic world would be so cool. They've played seriously realistic games with all kinds of horrific deaths, and at some point your mind experiences these things over and over while your body is completely fine. And so someone warning you that a president might start nuclear war isn't scary and disconcerting, it's like, is CBS or ABC going to get the rights, and will the show air at a time that isn't going to affect my Game of Thrones viewing and NFL watching?
posted by cashman at 9:38 AM on September 21, 2016 [15 favorites]

Except this isn't what polling breakdowns are showing us.

I said women, not white women.
posted by chris24 at 9:39 AM on September 21, 2016 [13 favorites]

Lewandowski Is like some kind of drug resistant bacteria.
posted by Artw at 9:43 AM on September 21, 2016 [13 favorites]

Could we skip a whole thing where we blame video games for Trump?
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:43 AM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

For a while now I think a lot of people have grown up on the idea that a post-apocalyptic world would be so cool.

I get to be Daryl. Somebody else has to be Rick.
posted by valkane at 9:45 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Could we skip a whole thing where we blame video games for Trump?

I'm more talking about the threat of really bad things happening via nuclear war, and of course media of all types affects how we interact with our world. We keep having discussions about why a lot of people don't seem to be getting how dangerous of a point we're approaching, and that's a factor.
posted by cashman at 9:45 AM on September 21, 2016

No, that's apparently incorrect

ugh, of course it was too good to be true. Sorry for the false alarm.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 9:46 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh, hey, I almost forgot among all of the utterly predictable daily Trump feeding frenzy: didn't Hillary give a big speech, and write a post, aimed at Millennials?

Where was the coverage of that speech and the reaction of Millennials to it, since there's supposedly such a big issue there? Just too much facts + policy, I suppose?
posted by Dashy at 9:46 AM on September 21, 2016 [10 favorites]

Where was the coverage of that speech and the reaction of Millennials to it, since there's supposedly such a big issue there? Just too much facts + policy, I suppose?

They have been all over the bombing suspect. One network, I believe it was MSNBC, even said as much on the air.
posted by cashman at 9:48 AM on September 21, 2016

Dashy, here's the NYT coverage of it. It was covered but didn't rise to the top with the bombing.
posted by chris24 at 9:48 AM on September 21, 2016

CNN just passed up an easy excuse to ditch Corey Lewandowski
-- Callum Borchers, WaPo, 21sep2016 12:09 PM

So if CNN was looking for an excuse to ditch Lewandowski — a reason to fire or suspend him without admitting that he stinks as an analyst — it easily could have used the latest FEC report to do so. Instead, the network is standing by its guy.

The whole episode indicates that CNN likes Lewandowski — and is more committed to him — than his many critics might have thought.

posted by Herodios at 9:50 AM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

CNN has now gotten back to us and firmly denied that Lewandowski has been suspended, and said that he will be on air later today.

This is how CNN maintains its sense of journalistic integrity and objectivity—by not firing Trump's paid shill.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:50 AM on September 21, 2016 [24 favorites]

Could we skip a whole thing where we blame video games for Trump?

Actually, it's about ethics in video gamer support for Trump.
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:53 AM on September 21, 2016 [12 favorites]

This time, the whackadoos are ecstatic; they have a card-carrying fruitcake atop the ticket who is happy to pander to them loudly and often. Their enthusiasm is at peak levels. Finally, One Of Them is going to be President and he's going to beat the shit out of all the Non-Real Americans! Underestimate that fervor at your peril.

I don't think anyone is underestimating that fervor. We're--I believe correctly--estimating that there aren't enough whackadoos to win the election, and he isn't doing anything to attract the non-whackadoo vote.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:56 AM on September 21, 2016 [10 favorites]

The best part of the CNN Lewandowski deal is this bit from the bottom of the recent NYTimes article on the subject:

In July, when Donna Brazile, a CNN contributor, took over as interim chairwoman of the Democratic National Committee, the network suspended her contract.

So its fine with CNN to hire a Trump White Male to spew lies on air while still being paid by a campaign. But a well spoken African American woman taking an interim gig with the DNC is immediate grounds for contract suspension.
posted by localhuman at 10:03 AM on September 21, 2016 [45 favorites]

New York Times op-ed: Hillary Clinton: My Plan for Helping America’s Poor:

As president, one of my top priorities will be increasing economic growth that’s strong, fair and lasting. I will work with Democrats and Republicans to make a historic investment in good-paying jobs — jobs in infrastructure and manufacturing, technology and innovation, small businesses and clean energy. And we need to make sure that hard work is rewarded by raising the minimum wage and finally guaranteeing equal pay for women.

posted by kirkaracha at 10:03 AM on September 21, 2016 [15 favorites]

Fox News sez Sean Hannity won’t appear in any more Trump videos
-- Associated Press 21sep2016 at 12:07 PM

Fox News says Sean Hannity won’t be appearing in any more campaign videos for Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump.

[Hannity] will not be doing anything along these lines for the remainder of the election season.

Fox said it did not know in advance that Hannity would be making the appearance.

Hannity appears for about 30 seconds in an 8-minute long video entitled “#HEARTLAND4TRUMP” posted on the candidate’s YouTube channel Sunday.

In the video, Hannity is identified as a “TV personality.” . . .

Hannity has made no secret of his support for Trump and acknowledged to The New York Times last month he gives the candidate campaign advice. He maintains that as an opinionated talk show host, he should not be held to the same impartiality standards as reporters.

A Trump town hall in Ohio on Wednesday morning, with Hannity’s participation, is to be aired on Hannity’s prime-time show.

Yes, well Fox doesn't get a piece of the action off a Hannity appearance in a Turmp Yoot Ube video, eh?
 
posted by Herodios at 10:10 AM on September 21, 2016

estimating that there aren't enough whackadoos to win the election
[NOT WHACKADOO-IST]
posted by kirkaracha at 10:10 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is how CNN maintains its sense of journalistic integrity and objectivity—by not firing Trump's paid shill.

I'm not going to go all in on the defense here, but it is entirely possible that Lewandowski's ongoing payments are part of his termination agreement with Trump's campaign. I know because I've been in a similar situation, where I was no longer working for an employer but the terms of that employment relationship ending involved me staying on the payroll for a period of time.

It still looks bad from a journalistic perspective, but it is possible that someone is getting paid under those terms and that there isn't a conflict.
posted by nubs at 10:11 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

localhuman, and keep in mind that Brazile had been with CNN for a while prior to that, and worked as a commentator for ABC News prior to moving to CNN. She is someone who is part of the upper level leadership of the Democratic Party (and was even before this year's DNC), but she is also a longtime political commentator. Wasn't Lewandowski only hired as a Trump surrogate in the first place?
posted by Sara C. at 10:12 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

A shot of the crowd at Trump's "African-American Town Hall" with Sean Hannity.
posted by mightygodking at 10:14 AM on September 21, 2016 [35 favorites]

I found Waldo!
posted by nicepersonality at 10:15 AM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

A shot of the crowd at Trump's "African-American Town Hall" with Sean Hannity.

The centre of the shot, one in from the right. There's Trump's African-American. He actually got one to turn up!
posted by Francis at 10:16 AM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm not going to go all in on the defense here, but it is entirely possible that Lewandowski's ongoing payments are part of his termination agreement with Trump's campaign. I know because I've been in a similar situation, where I was no longer working for an employer but the terms of that employment relationship ending involved me staying on the payroll for a period of time.

It still looks bad from a journalistic perspective, but it is possible that someone is getting paid under those terms and that there isn't a conflict.

Except, of course, that Lewandowski knows that were he to say anything critical of Trump or even be insufficiently vocal in Trump's defense, that those severance payments will just stop, because not paying people he owes money is something Trump does all the time.
posted by mightygodking at 10:17 AM on September 21, 2016 [13 favorites]

it is possible that someone is getting paid under those terms and that there isn't a conflict.

Except that as part of his severance, he's under a NDA that prohibits disparagement of Trump.
posted by chris24 at 10:17 AM on September 21, 2016 [30 favorites]

There's Trump's African-American. He actually got one to turn up!

The sole Trump supporter I can identify in my FB feed is a black man from Boston. He's a truck driver. You scoff, but they certainly do exist.
posted by anastasiav at 10:19 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Photo: Trump's "African-American" town hall on Hannity [alt text: a seated audience comprised primarily of white people]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:20 AM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

NH poll (Monmouth)

Clinton 47%
Trump 38%
Johnson 10%
Stein 1%

Ayotte +2.

If she prevails they will hold the Senate until 2020.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:24 AM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

"By a 30/23 spread in PPP poll, Trump voters in North Carolina say they have a higher opinion of David Duke than they do of Hillary Clinton"

Today's Republican Party ladies and gentlemen. But god forbid you say deplorable.
posted by chris24 at 10:24 AM on September 21, 2016 [38 favorites]

Guys, it was called African-American Town Hall, not African-Americans Town Hall.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:25 AM on September 21, 2016 [39 favorites]

Dashy : Oh, hey, I almost forgot among all of the utterly predictable daily Trump feeding frenzy: didn't Hillary give a big speech, and write a post, aimed at Millennials?

Where was the coverage of that speech and the reaction of Millennials to it, since there's supposedly such a big issue there? Just too much facts + policy, I suppose?

Why, just this morning on NPR, there was an interview with one of these "millennials," who says that they don't like Clinton like they liked Obama, and are voting third-party, or not at all. So I guess there's that.
(I'm still surprised/disappointed that Hillary's Humans of NY piece didn't get more traction.)
posted by rp at 10:26 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Much talk today about how critical we here in New Hampshire are to both the Presidential and Senate results. With that in mind:

NH poll (Monmouth)
Clinton 47%
Trump 38%
Johnson 10%
Stein 1%

Senate
Ayotte(R) 47%
Hassan(D) 45%
posted by schoolgirl report at 10:26 AM on September 21, 2016

And Clinton +2 head to head, +3 four ways in the new Wisconsin poll.

3 in Wisconsin is not good.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:30 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

A shot of the crowd at Trump's "African-American Town Hall" with Sean Hannity.

That is hysterical!

FTR, Cleveland Heights is a an urban-suburb -- or inner-ring suburb if you prefer -- of Cleveland. According to the last census:
  City of Cleveland: 53% black
  Cleveland Heights: 42% black

Neighboring communities:
  University Heights: 23% black
  Shaker Heights: 37% black
  East Cleveland: 93% black

I don't know whence pastor Scott draws his congregation on an average Sunday, but the idea that you could take a photo like that at an African American church in Cleveland Heights without actively rounding up white people to appear in it is risible. There's a very traditional looking 100 year old United Methodist church with a bell tower down the street from me that's blacker than this on any given day.
 
posted by Herodios at 10:35 AM on September 21, 2016 [9 favorites]

The Late Show Blanket Fort (with First Lady Michelle Obama)
posted by kirkaracha at 10:36 AM on September 21, 2016 [15 favorites]

60 Minutes is doing a multi-part series on "the nuclear codes." It started last week, showing the nuclear subs and STRATCOM, the United States' Strategic Command. They interviewed Admiral Cecil Haney, the guy tasked with ordering nuclear strikes. He was very clear about the fact that the President has less than 10 minutes to decide on a strike order, and that while he has input on that decision, he will ultimately carry out the President's order. The President does not require the consent of Congress or anyone else to initiate a nuclear strike.

But this is all related to a retaliatory strike in the event of US being under attack, right? I assume there would be a lot more checks and balances if the President wanted to do a first strike with nuclear weapons.
posted by ymgve at 10:37 AM on September 21, 2016

But this is all related to a retaliatory strike in the event of US being under attack, right?

Correct.
posted by cashman at 10:38 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm still surprised/disappointed that Hillary's Humans of NY piece didn't get more traction.

I know social media bubbles and all, but this was ALL OVER my Facebook feed the week it came out. I would definitely have described it as a viral post. It also definitely was as widely shared if not moreso than similar appeals to millennials from Obama in years past. Though that might just be a function of the way election years play out on social media; "Obama goes on Between Two Ferns" is only really interesting to Between Two Ferns fans, whereas Hillary right now is a priority even if you're not a regular subscriber to Humans Of New York.

That said, as a white feminist with a large proportion of highly educated white female friends, there is probably more "I'm With Her" in my feed than the average bear.
posted by Sara C. at 10:40 AM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

I don't know whence pastor Scott draws his congregation on an average Sunday

Dave Weigel: "Parishioners are 95% black. His audience today seems… less than that."
posted by holgate at 10:42 AM on September 21, 2016 [13 favorites]

But this is all related to a retaliatory strike in the event of US being under attack, right? I assume there would be a lot more checks and balances if the President wanted to do a first strike with nuclear weapons.

Not formal ones. There would be people begging the President not to do it, and probably a lot of people in the chain would just not do it (of course, there isn't really A Button That Fires All The Missiles), but there aren't legal measures in place.
posted by Etrigan at 10:44 AM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

I get to be Daryl. Somebody else has to be Rick.

You can be whoever you want as long as I get power armor and Christine's CoS Rifle.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:45 AM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

Running alongside the Hillary Op-Ed on NYT is this one:
Trump's Stupid Excuses on Taxes

Were I media king for a week, I'd have my interviewers ask solely about the tax returns. Every surrogate statement would be followed up with "where are the tax returns?"
posted by strange chain at 10:45 AM on September 21, 2016 [15 favorites]

The Many Scandals of Donald Trump: A Cheat Sheet
posted by kirkaracha at 10:49 AM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

I am thinking about traveling to a swing state to help GOTV. Has anyone done this? What's it like??
posted by chrchr at 10:49 AM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

Were I media king for a week, I'd have my interviewers ask solely about the tax returns. Every surrogate statement would be followed up with "where are the tax returns?"

Maybe this is the tactic she should take in the debate. Spin every single question into : "why won't you release your returns?"

How can America trust you if you won't release them? are you hiding something?
How can our Allies trust you if we can't trust you to release them? are you hiding something?
How can America feel safe with a leader who is hiding something as important as his tax returns?
How can you make promises on the economy if you can't even show us your tax returns?
and so forth

the only narrative after the debate will be what is he hiding, or why is she obsessed with what he is hiding?
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:55 AM on September 21, 2016 [13 favorites]

Sheldon Adelson Focuses on Congressional Races, Despite Donald Trump’s Pleas
High-Income Voters Favor the Democratic Nominee for First Time in Decades
posted by kirkaracha at 11:06 AM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

Michelle Ye Hee Lee:
today is 9/21/2016

Donald Trump:
Mitt Romney didn't show his tax return until SEPTEMBER 21, 2012, and then only after being humiliated by Harry R! A bad messenger for estab!

9:47 AM - 28 Feb 2016

posted by Atom Eyes at 11:08 AM on September 21, 2016 [12 favorites]

Francis: "The centre of the shot, one in from the right. There's Trump's African-American. He actually got one to turn up!"

You'd think he would be able to pull more African-Americans if only because of media, protesters or people wanting to disrupt the process.
posted by Mitheral at 11:08 AM on September 21, 2016

The latest With Her podcast episode is up. This time talking to Chelsea.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:12 AM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

I have no problem with any African American noping out of something like this, but I also think that a lot of them who would have protested might have been blocked as troublemakers.
posted by emjaybee at 11:12 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

So after the press bullies the Clinton Foundation into cutting back on collecting charity donations and shrinking their programs, the big story today is how the Clinton Foundation is laying off some employees at the end of the year.

Next up, how the Clintons have killed millions by cutting off their AIDS medication.
posted by JackFlash at 11:20 AM on September 21, 2016 [36 favorites]

I am thinking about traveling to a swing state to help GOTV. Has anyone done this? What's it like??

Two of my friends from Seattle did a little voluntercation in Harrisburg PA. It sounded like any other experience working in a campaign office. This was in early August while things were gearing up and they showed up on the first day anyone had been in that space. It had a leak in the roof and a mess. Over the course of four days they cleaned and organized, did some data entry type work, decorated the office (including a pretty awesome Hillary sign; we provided the cute kid) and did phone banking and canvassing.
posted by phearlez at 11:20 AM on September 21, 2016 [9 favorites]

Jordan Klepper "Fingers the Pulse" with Conspiracy Theories at a DJT Rally
posted by numaner at 11:31 AM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

It seems worth quoting the 25th Amendment given the nuclear discussion:

Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

So I guess it's faintly reassuring that, under the infinitesimal likelihood that Pence and the majority of a Trump Administration actually have a lower bar on principles, integrity, and courage down in some subterranean location, there's at least a theoretical way Trump could be stopped from preemptively nuking a country where someone made fun of him. Though I suppose that members of the military would have to be on board too, for the process to get going fast enough to actually delay orders issued by a President Trump.

BTW, the second section of this amendment Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress. appears to be the basis for a conspiracy theory that the Clinton campaign is a sham designed to put Obama in office for a third term, because the Twenty-second Amendment only specifies that a person can't be elected twice to the Presidency. Hopefully this is a sign that someone believes the Dems will take both Houses of Congress.
posted by XMLicious at 11:35 AM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Rightwingwatch.org: Darrell Scott: Trump Is Under 'Concentrated Satanic Attack'

Scott, who hosted the event at his New Spirit Revival Center, told the audience that a “nationally known” preacher warned Trump before he launched his campaign “that if you choose to run for president, there’s going to be a concentrated Satanic attack against you.”

“He said there’s going to be a demon, principalities and powers, that are going to war against you on a level that you’ve never seen before and I’m watching it every day,” Scott said.

There's video, of course.

I have more I would like to say about this, but every time I try, I am reduced to sputtering rage and incoherence, so this will have to speak for itself.

²⁰ Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! (Isaiah 5:20 KJV)

posted by Spathe Cadet at 11:40 AM on September 21, 2016 [11 favorites]

there's at least a theoretical way Trump could be stopped

I'm confused. How would this work? In the 60 minutes report, if launched nukes are detected, whoever is president has about 6-7 minutes to decide our response. And whoever is president has the authority to then send the order to launch nukes. What am I misunderstanding?
posted by cashman at 11:40 AM on September 21, 2016

Has anyone looked seriously into the possibility of a Democratic Senate seat pick-up in Louisiana?

1) Louisiana doesn't have a primary. All candidates are on the ticket for the general election.

2) There are over twenty candidates on the ballot including nine Republicans and seven Democrats.

3) If no one gets 50% in the November election (damned likely), the top two vote-getters will have a December run-off.

4) As former Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, David Duke (Republican) has high name recognition, a Trumpish fan-base and has a good chance of being among those top two. If Duke sops up a lot of the Republican vote, a Democrat might come in second. I'd say Duke coming in the top two is likely. A Democrat in the top two? It depends on how divided the vote among Democrats is.

5) If it comes down to Duke versus a Democrat, then the Republican party will be faced with having Senator Duke. While I don't think it's guaranteed, I think it's possible Louisiana will turn against Duke (especially if the Democrat is an effective campaigner). Louisiana chose a crooked Democrat over Duke the last time he came close to election.

(Interestingly, it could come down to Duke being Senator versus the Republicans losing the Senate.)

I think there's about a fair chance that this scenario plays out.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:41 AM on September 21, 2016 [9 favorites]

I'm having a hard time understanding the worry over Trump going rogue and independently deciding to nuke someplace. I mean, I get that he's a total loose cannon, and that he's said he doesn't see a problem with limited nuclear attacks, and I know it seems perfectly in character for him. But if he gets elected, even if it's a squeaker or (dear god no) a court/legal decision, he'll still have a mandate, and I am fairly certain that a good number of sitting Republicans in congress will be glad to back him in his insanity because they've seen what happens to fellow republicans who don't go along with the far-right wackos. And there are plenty of voters out there who are proud to spout the "turn it into a parking lot / steal their oil / bomb them back into the stone age" alternative to diplomacy as if its a real option to making anything better.

I guess what I'm saying is, I am not afraid he'll go rogue. I am afraid half the country will.
posted by Mchelly at 11:41 AM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

there's at least a theoretical way Trump could be stopped

I'm confused. How would this work? In the 60 minutes report, if launched nukes are detected, whoever is president has about 6-7 minutes to decide our response.

I think XMLicious is putting this forth as a possible response to Trump initiating a nuclear attack.
posted by Etrigan at 11:42 AM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

“He said there’s going to be a demon, principalities and powers, that are going to war against you on a level that you’ve never seen before and I’m watching it every day,” Scott said.

well yeah no shit I didn't buy all these grimoires for bathroom reading ffs
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:43 AM on September 21, 2016 [33 favorites]

Scott, who hosted the event at his New Spirit Revival Center, told the audience that a “nationally known” preacher warned Trump before he launched his campaign “that if you choose to run for president, there’s going to be a concentrated Satanic attack against you.”

He's not wrong, in that Trump has been by far his own worst enemy.
posted by Etrigan at 11:44 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

The best-case scenario for a rogue president deciding to use the nuclear arsenal is an on-the-spot coup. That's still a terrible, terrible outcome.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:44 AM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

Ayotte +2. If she prevails they [Republicans] will hold the Senate until 2020.

This shouldn't be a close race. The Democrat Hassan has a higher approval rating. But she is a terrible candidate. In an interview she three times in five minutes refused to say whether Hillary Clinton is honest and trustworthy.

This is reminiscent of Alison Grimes in her senate campaign who refused to answer whether she voted for fellow Democrat Barack Obama.

These aren't difficult questions. If you are embarrassed by your Democratic heritage, maybe you shouldn't be running as a Democrat.
posted by JackFlash at 11:44 AM on September 21, 2016 [11 favorites]

I'm confused. How would this work? In the 60 minutes report, if launched nukes are detected, whoever is president has about 6-7 minutes to decide our response. And whoever is president has the authority to then send the order to launch nukes. What am I misunderstanding?

The eleven words immediately following the part of my comment you quoted, I guess?

...a theoretical way Trump could be stopped from preemptively nuking a country where someone made fun of him.

posted by XMLicious at 11:45 AM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Am I worried about being put in an internment camp when I should be worried about nuclear war instead? Maybe I need to get off the computer today.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 11:46 AM on September 21, 2016 [18 favorites]

Got it. Thank you.
posted by cashman at 11:46 AM on September 21, 2016

Am I worried about being put in an internment camp when I should be worried about nuclear war instead? Maybe I need to get off the computer today.

That makes two of us.
posted by cashman at 11:47 AM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

BuddhaInABucket and cashman: no reason it has to be either/or.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 11:49 AM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

Am I worried about being put in an internment camp when I should be worried about nuclear war instead? Maybe I need to get off the computer today.

On the lighter side of "Only in these days...", a coworker told me she has a huge crush on Jon Favreau, and I knew she was talking about the speechwriter and not the movie star.
posted by Etrigan at 11:51 AM on September 21, 2016 [13 favorites]

I met a guy at a wedding last weekend who worked on a few Democratic campaigns and had met Hillary - he said she's awesome and warm in person and he doesn't get all the haterade.
posted by zutalors! at 11:56 AM on September 21, 2016 [16 favorites]

This article appeared on refinery29 today. It's an e-mail interview of Ali Vitali and Monica Alba, both of NBC News regarding their experiences as embedded reporters with the two campaigns. Since we discuss campaign coverage so often, I thought their experience might be of value.
posted by Silverstone at 11:59 AM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

BuddhaInABucket: "Am I worried about being put in an internment camp when I should be worried about nuclear war instead? "

It's not like those are two mutually exclusive options.
posted by Mitheral at 12:09 PM on September 21, 2016

Trump will propose nationwide stop-and-frisk to address violence in black community 2nite on Hannity:

Holy shit. This isn't really happening is it?
posted by Talez at 12:10 PM on September 21, 2016 [55 favorites]

Am I worried about being put in an internment camp when I should be worried about nuclear war instead? Maybe I need to get off the computer today.

No, the internment camps are definitely the more immediate and likely thing to be more worried about, because there are many more people who want that than just Trump himself. Trump having command over nuclear forces is a more remote concern, but he's been daydreaming about having his hands on them for his entire life, based on comments he's made in interviews going back into the last century.

The (preemptive) scenario I'd imagine is Trump, regarding himself as Mr. Super-Negotiator, tries to pull something like Obama's "red line" bluff as a way of getting leverage, but also with a threat of nuclear attack because he's Trump and has to be over the top and the best. But since he only barely has object permanence he wouldn't have the maturity to swallow his pride if his bluff was called like Obama's was.

Hopefully, yeah, this is an extremely remote possibility because the rest of the US government and military would be able to successfully counsel him against engaging in brinkmanship with preemptive nuclear war threats in the first place.

The utility of thinking about it is to be able to more convincingly communicate to conservatives and undecideds what a superlatively bad idea it is to make Trump President. In my experience they react differently to discussion of nuclear weapons—Trump supporters' brows will furrow, and their responses become less nonsensical and more half-heartedly dismissive, and they appear to actually think about what I'm saying.

Another useful detail is, if they point out that arms export controls would prevent Trump from carrying out his proposals that Japan and Korea and Saudia Arabia could get nuclear weapons, one counterargument is that the US wouldn't need to directly give any country the weapons or technology; Trump might, for example, bargain for a third party like Pakistan to provide matériel and expertise.
posted by XMLicious at 12:11 PM on September 21, 2016

This shouldn't be a close race. The Democrat Hassan has a higher approval rating. But she is a terrible candidate. In an interview she three times in five minutes refused to say whether Hillary Clinton is honest and trustworthy.

Oh for crying out loud! Even for a mewlingly mushy, don't-offend-Republicans candidate in a purple state, that question should be easy:

INTERVIEWER: Do you consider Clinton honest and trustworthy?

CANDIDATE: Compared to Donald Trump?

Sheesh.
posted by Gelatin at 12:13 PM on September 21, 2016 [18 favorites]

“He said there’s going to be a demon, principalities and powers, that are going to war against you on a level that you’ve never seen before and I’m watching it every day,” Scott said.

One demon and two entire orders of angels. Sounds more like an angelic attack to me.
posted by Francis at 12:13 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

Angels that wouldn't attack Trump don't belong in any Heaven I'd want to go to.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:14 PM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump thinks black people are poor criminals and victims who just need a good whipping from their master to straighten it all out.
posted by humanfont at 12:15 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump will propose nationwide stop-and-frisk to address violence in black community 2nite on Hannity:

He's really doing all he can to have black turnout match Obama's elections.
posted by chris24 at 12:16 PM on September 21, 2016 [21 favorites]

One demon and two entire orders of angels. Sounds more like an angelic attack to me.

Sounds more like a waitress giving an order to a fry cook to me.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 12:18 PM on September 21, 2016 [16 favorites]

Trump will propose nationwide stop-and-frisk to address violence in black community 2nite on Hannity:

Holy shit. This isn't really happening is it?

So what number of been there done that, NOT a good idea, history has shown it not to work/unconstitutional/illegal proposals are we at now?

I wonder if he or people in his campaign are capable or anything that is actually original.
posted by Jalliah at 12:19 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump will propose nationwide stop-and-frisk to address violence in black community 2nite on Hannity

According to those pictures from this event this question was likely asked by a white person? Also it would be weird for a black person to use the term "black on black" crime, at least I've never heard anyone say that except racists.

God, that's uncomfortable. Like a meeting of slavers.
posted by zutalors! at 12:20 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

And here's the tacit admission of racist intent.

Trump says limiting admission of refugees to the US is "not just a matter of terrorism but a matter of quality of life"
posted by chris24 at 12:21 PM on September 21, 2016 [23 favorites]

Trump says limiting admission of refugees to the US is "not just a matter of terrorism but a matter of quality of life"

"I mean I'm just saying, someone has to live next to these refugees and next thing you know these innocent hard-working Americans are going to find their property values going down!" [fake]
posted by Talez at 12:23 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

So basically he's going to do everything but don a hood at the Hannity thing tonight?
posted by strange chain at 12:25 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump: "American hands will rebuild" the country, "not the hands of people from other countries." [real]
posted by melissasaurus at 12:26 PM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

Ugh. Can we just open up the Strategic Evens Reserve already?
posted by tonycpsu at 12:27 PM on September 21, 2016 [50 favorites]

Inbox: 'The West Wing' Cast to Campaign for Hillary Clinton in Ohio
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:28 PM on September 21, 2016 [10 favorites]

"I mean I'm just saying, someone has to live next to these refugees and next thing you know these innocent hard-working Americans are going to find their property values going down!" [fake]

I even encountered this during my state's same-sex marriage effort. Married gay couples were going to somehow lower property values more than unmarried ones, or were going to be more likely to buy a house or something like that.
posted by XMLicious at 12:29 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

If you are embarrassed by your Democratic heritage, maybe you shouldn't be running as a Democrat.

These are the only type of Democrats that get support from the DNC and especially Chuck Schumer's DSCC. Patrick Murphy is a literal Republican who's billionaire daddy bought him a congress seat and voted with Republicans 64% of the time. Kate McGinty is a fracking lobbyist. Ted Strickland is utterly uninspiring. Evan Bayh is Evan Bayh. Are Patty Judge and Anne Kilpatrick even running campaigns? The slate of candidates is universally awful apart from Duckworth and Feingold, and Republicans are now favored to hold the Senate regardless of who wins the top line.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:32 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Dude, fuck this, my street is practically entirely immigrants. Dumbass Trump voters who have probably never even met an immigrant in their lives.
posted by Frowner at 12:33 PM on September 21, 2016 [16 favorites]

"I mean I'm just saying, someone has to live next to these refugees and next thing you know these innocent hard-working Americans are going to find their property values going down!" [fake]

I even encountered this during my state's same-sex marriage effort.

Outsourced racism (/homophobia): "Oh, I don't have a problem with those people, but, y'know, other people do, so I guess I'm forced to have a problem with them. Darn societal pressures, whaddaya gonna do."
posted by Etrigan at 12:34 PM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

Fuck you, Trump, you racist, sexist, xenophobic piece of shit.
posted by defenestration at 12:35 PM on September 21, 2016 [33 favorites]

New Hampshire is holding it together. But I'm looking at you, Wisconsin. Get your shit in gear.
posted by Justinian at 12:35 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

The centre of the shot, one in from the right. There's Trump's African-American. He actually got one to turn up!

And note that he's the only one in the picture not paying attention to the stage but instead turning to the people next to him with a, "I cannot believe you talked me into coming to hear this crap!" look on his face.
posted by straight at 12:36 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

The best-case scenario for a rogue president deciding to use the nuclear arsenal is an on-the-spot coup.

Which would be just marginally more likely than a last-minute save by a recently-recovered coma patient with psychic powers.


(not advocating - never works anyway!)
posted by kythuen at 12:38 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

dances_with_sneeches, I know this is late but:

It's likely a Democrat will make the Louisiana Senate run-off after the GOP candidates beat up on each other enough, that's a fairly reliable outcome in previous races. One pulling off a victory in January is improbable. David Duke, however, won't come anywhere near the top 2 in November. Latest polling had him at 3%. It's bad down here but not that bad.
posted by gordie at 12:41 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sometimes the contrast between our countries (Canada/US) is so stark and it just hits me so hard it stuns. Like we're so similar in so many ways and share so much but at the same time so far apart and right now it seems like that gap is just growing.

Before coming back to this thread was reading about Trudeau's speech at the UN and about how we want to bring more refugees in and spend more money on refugees. And it's not like everyone here is rah rah, go go, I hear people grumble, mostly about the money aspect but overall it's just not a huge thing that people are talking about.

Then I come here and read the latest Trump who is just getting more and more bluntly white nationalist and know that so many in the US are rah, rah, go, go.

And then I shake my head, go to read some other things and come across this.

Bill Gates says Trudeau's approach to immigration, refugees good for business

Canada's open approach to immigration and its willingness to welcome tens of thousands of Syrian refugees is an "enlightened" move that will benefit the country's business sector, Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates says.

The business leader and philanthropist was in Vancouver on Tuesday to speak at the Emerging Cascadia Innovation Conference, aimed at strengthening the technology and business ties between British Columbia and Washington state.

"I think Canada's very well positioned. It's got good, strong universities, good policies -- certainly more enlightened immigration policies than most countries have, which is a real asset," said Gates, who is listed by the American business magazine Forbes as the richest man in the world with a US$81-billion net worth.

Gates commended Prime Minister Justin Trudeau for his role in helping people fleeing conflict in the Middle East.

"He as a leader wants to remind people about openness and taking in refugees in an appropriate way."


And then my brain just gives up trying to figure out what the hell is going on and why in the hell so many people think Trump knows what the fuck he's talking about.
posted by Jalliah at 12:41 PM on September 21, 2016 [10 favorites]

I can just imagine Trump lining up next to Putin at G20 and Trump, trying to be the tough guy, leans over and says "what would happen if we let, you know, one or two nukes fly at Siberia". Putin, without even looking at Trump, "we would unleash our entire nuclear arsenal against your most populated cities".
posted by Talez at 12:42 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump will propose nationwide stop-and-frisk to address violence in black community

That could work, but who's going to be brave enough to frisk a cop these days???
posted by kythuen at 12:44 PM on September 21, 2016 [87 favorites]

They practice open carry, so it would be awkward.
posted by Midnight Skulker at 12:48 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Y'all I just need to share. My 73 year old mother has started posting Black Lives Matter stuff on FB of her own accord. She's been totally shocked by how many of her friends are Trump supporters and has been posting anti-Trump stuff for a while. I think maybe my former-Republican voting mother is being radicalized.

Sad counter-example: I saw a pick-up truck with "Police Lives Matter" as a front license plate thing, and I happened to be there when the drivers of the truck came back. It was an older white couple, probably in the 70s. Does that message matter to you so much that you 1) buy a license plate thing, and 2) actually take the time to screw it on? Sigh.


Talez: Well, to the suprise of nobody, Trump stood up the Ukraine.

But there's more in that tweeted image:

Thus far, the President of Ukraine has been pleased with the number of meetings that have taken place in NYC with world leader after world leader, including Hillary Clinton.

Yup, Donald met with Enrique Peña Nieto, and then had a twitter battle over Trump's Wall, while Hillary met with Petro Poroshenko and that's a forgotten detail.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:48 PM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

Good thing their body-cams can generally be relied on to not capture these transactions.
posted by Golem XIV at 12:49 PM on September 21, 2016

Colbert: Donald Trump Jr. Might Want To Check His Math

Puts the Skittles tweet into perspective.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:53 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

chris24: Don King, who once stomped a man to death ...

... was pardoned by Gov. James A. Rhodes of Ohio, in part because of many letters supporting King, from such notables as the Rev. Jesse Jackson, the civil rights leader; Coretta Scott King, widow of Martin Luther King Jr.; Steve G. Davis, executive director of the National Publishers Association... and then Cleveland named the street where the murder over a $600 debt took place after the murderer, Don King.

Don King already broke a bit of reality. This is just continuing that trend of warped logic being totally normal.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:02 PM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

Well, [the?] one black person who attended the Trump/Hannity thing walked out:

Betts, a distributor of hair products, said he is registered to vote as an independent and that he attended the town hall because he was curious about what Trump would say to try to win over black voters. He said he thinks police unfairly discriminate against black citizens and he is against stop-and-frisk.

"We are victims," he said, adding he walked out of the town hall while it was still under way.

"I just couldn't take it anymore, I had to go," he said. "I don't think that Donald Trump gets it."

posted by melissasaurus at 1:02 PM on September 21, 2016 [84 favorites]

The Trump campaign's latest statement: Bernard Sansaricq is rooting for us!

Bernard Sansaricq knows quality authoritarian strongmen when he sees them! Pay no attention to the 1994 invasion that dislodged his junta buddies!
posted by Talez at 1:03 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sad counter-example: I saw a pick-up truck with "Police Lives Matter" as a front license plate thing

Where I'm at, they have a flag for this, a monochrome black-and-white US flag with a single blue stripe across the length of it right below the field of stars.

Yup. The racists have a new battleflag now that the confederate stars-n-bars is no longer a passable dogwhistle.
posted by Slap*Happy at 1:04 PM on September 21, 2016 [10 favorites]

The Trump campaign is putting out statements by someone previously affiliated with a junta. This is normal. This is fine.
posted by zachlipton at 1:08 PM on September 21, 2016 [10 favorites]

It's like the Trump campaign is literally going through a list of people who hate the Clintons for one reason or another and just giving them carte blanche without doing any background research.
posted by Talez at 1:09 PM on September 21, 2016 [11 favorites]

The Scandal Machine: Video surfaces of Hillary playing Van Halen's "Eruption" note for note. Reactions follow typical patterns.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:11 PM on September 21, 2016 [14 favorites]

and then Cleveland named the street where the murder over a $600 debt took place after the murderer, Don King.

Uuuuggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

You just completely destroyed my faith in humanity, filthy light thief. Why? WHY?

Please tell me there is a petition I can sign or something to help make this NOT HAPPEN?
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:12 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Where I'm at, they have a flag for this, a monochrome black-and-white US flag with a single blue stripe across the length of it right below the field of stars.

Oh, they have a flag for it here in Virginia, too. It's crossed blue bars with white stars on them over a red background. Usually seen flying from the back of a lifted pickup.
posted by indubitable at 1:13 PM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

City of Cleveland Backs Off Plan to Name Section of Cedar Ave. Where Don King Once Killed a Man "Don King Way"
posted by Surely This at 1:23 PM on September 21, 2016 [13 favorites]

It's like the Trump campaign is literally going through a list of people who hate the Clintons for one reason or another and just giving them carte blanche without doing any background research.

to be fair, research isn't really their campaign's forte
posted by strange chain at 1:24 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Holy shit. Holy holy holy holy shit.

A Trump aide just fucked up big time.

A longtime aide to the Trump family defended Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s record of charitable giving on Wednesday, arguing some money given to Trump’s foundation by third parties "is his money."

Lynne Patton, a senior assistant to three of Trump’s adult children and the vice president of son Eric Trump’s charitable foundation, told The Des Moines Register that some donations to the Donald J. Trump Foundation should be recognized as contributions from Trump himself because in some cases that money would have been paid to Trump directly.

“A lot of times Mr. Trump will give a speech somewhere or he’ll raise money in some way and he asks that that entity, instead of cutting a personal check to him, cut it to his charity,” Patton said. “That’s money that otherwise would’ve been in his personal account, right?”

If he's getting people to route money to his foundation and then using the foundation as a personal slush fund to buy things for his resorts and settle lawsuits in self-dealing they might have just inadvertently confirmed a serious case of tax fraud.
posted by Talez at 1:25 PM on September 21, 2016 [108 favorites]

Trump aide just fucked up big time.

The thing is, literally nobody is going to care about this.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:27 PM on September 21, 2016 [48 favorites]

City of Cleveland Backs Off Plan to Name Section of Cedar Ave. Where Don King Once Killed a Man "Don King Way"

Faith in humanity slightly restored, but not fully since there is still a street named after Don King. Gross.
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:29 PM on September 21, 2016

mfw
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:29 PM on September 21, 2016 [14 favorites]

This isn't specifically directed at anyone here, it's more of a general feelings dump on this latest wave of horrifying Trump nonsense.

You know, everyone keeps telling me not to worry so much, that it'll be fine. Even if Trump wins, it'll be fine! "They" won't let Trump do anything too crazy! "They" won't let Trump do anything unconstitutional or illegal, "they'll" make sure Trump doesn't have any real power. "We're in California, you don't have to worry too much about the crazy racists." And I just--what about our nation's history suggests to you that I, a Muslim-American woman, queer, naturalized citizen, shouldn't worry? Japanese internment? Those times we turned desperate Jewish refugees away during WWII? Operation Wetback? Guantanamo?

When I hear more and more stories from relatives about the racist, xenophobic rhetoric they're hearing more and more often, when I see stories in the news about the rise in hate crimes against Muslims, when every new thing about immigrants and Muslims and refugees that comes out of the Trump campaign's horrifying maw tells me he and his supporters don't think I count as a citizen....tell me again, why shouldn't I worry? Why should I feel safe?

Listen, I know we've been here before. This is Know-Nothing nativism all over again, and we got through it okay before. But I'm so worried. I try to imagine waking up on November 9th to President-Elect Trump and my brain stalls out in terror. I'm trying to gauge what the appropriate balance is between chicken littling and pragmatism, and this godforsaken election cycle has just blown up my scale.

I'm so sick of feeling so unsafe. I know it's a reflection of my privilege that this feeling is so comparatively new, but I'm sick to heart of it already, and contemplating four or eight more years of it no matter who's in office is intolerable to me. I really, really hope this horrifying white nationalism campaign of Trump's is lancing the festering boil to enable healing, but I'm so worried that it's not. I'm so worried that this is the tumor that's going to metastasize.
posted by yasaman at 1:30 PM on September 21, 2016 [60 favorites]

The thing is, literally nobody is going to care about this.

David Farenthold is diving down that rabbit hole as we speak.
posted by Talez at 1:30 PM on September 21, 2016 [24 favorites]

Trump aide just fucked up big time.

CNN's Jake Tapper is reporting Clinton emailed someone today.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:31 PM on September 21, 2016 [12 favorites]

A Trump aide just fucked up big time.

Are we not doing "Meredith" anymore?
posted by penduluum at 1:31 PM on September 21, 2016 [13 favorites]

Patrick Murphy is a literal Republican who's billionaire daddy bought him a congress seat and voted with Republicans 64% of the time.

And the left backed a hedge fund manager under investigation for ethics violation and domestic violence.

Kate McGinty is a fracking lobbyist.

The left had a pretty good candidate in PA - shame that nobody gave him any support and didn't cut Sestak off at the knees when he got in the race.

Politics ain't beanbag.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:31 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump aide just fucked up big time.
The thing is, literally nobody is going to care about this.

Whether or not it gets more than a tiny ripple of election news coverage, the IRS will be interested in her testimony.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:32 PM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

David Fahrenthold cares, and is on the trail.

EDIT: dammit beaten by Talez again
posted by strange chain at 1:32 PM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

LA Times/USA Today Op-Ed guy has just noticed Farenthold.
posted by Talez at 1:33 PM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

If anyone wants to read more about the tax issue (not that anything will come of it), the doctrine at issue is the assignment of income. Here's a short article on how that doctrine operates in the charity context.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:34 PM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

Speaking at a campaign rally in Orlando, Hillary Clinton talks about the officer involved shootings in Tulsa, Oklahoma and Charlotte, North Carolina (video)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:36 PM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

Holy crap it looks like we're watching a tax fraud scandal evolve in real time.
posted by Talez at 1:36 PM on September 21, 2016 [14 favorites]

Lynne is the new Meredith?

I get the feeling these women are actually sabotaging the campaign because he's a sexist and misogynistic asshole.
posted by numaner at 1:37 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

I get the feeling these women are actually sabotaging the campaign because he's a sexist and misogynistic asshole.

I wanna believe!
posted by chris24 at 1:41 PM on September 21, 2016 [22 favorites]

USAToday: It's Facebook vs. Twitter in presidential debates

Interesting side story to the election.

Forget Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. It's Facebook versus Twitter in a social media showdown to win the election cycle.

The two companies are competing head-to-head for live video viewership, each clinching deals to stream all three hotly anticipated presidential debates and the vice presidential debate for free. Their goal: to get people to turn off their televisions and talk while they watch the debates on social media.

Very lucrative.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:41 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

This new wrinkle certainly explains the odd dollar amounts "donated" to the Trump Foundation on a regular basis by that ticket-scalping kingpin.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:41 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Holy crap it looks like we're watching a tax fraud scandal evolve in real time.

At least now when I follow the election at my desk, it still looks like I'm working.

Could 2016 be the year that being a tax lawyer finally becomes....cool?
I already know the answer, guys; this is a rhetorical question.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:42 PM on September 21, 2016 [64 favorites]

This issue really doesn't seem complicated. It's so obvious that you can't do something for somebody, have them "donate" to your charity instead of paying you, and then neither of you pay taxes.

The trick is going to be proving that's what happened. (Beyond his idiot assistant actually saying it out loud without realizing the problem.)
posted by diogenes at 1:45 PM on September 21, 2016 [10 favorites]

@ACLU

No.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:46 PM on September 21, 2016 [25 favorites]

Could 2016 be the year that being a tax lawyer finally becomes....cool?

I would watch CSI: Tax Lawyer.

"How do you guys investigate tax crimes?"

"Using deductive reasoning."

(sunglasses)

"Source deductions, that is"

YEAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!
posted by nubs at 1:47 PM on September 21, 2016 [20 favorites]

It's only a scandal if it gets reported as one. Or at all.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:47 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

I get the feeling these women are actually sabotaging the campaign because he's a sexist and misogynistic asshole.

No, I think this particular one is just a bit dumb and has spent enough time in the TrumpOrg bubble to have internalised the family SOP. Every bit of TrumpOrg is a slush fund for every other bit. Except that using the charitable bit as a slush fund happened where Fahrenthold could (finally) see it.

It's payment under the table on a grand scale. Simple as that.
posted by holgate at 1:50 PM on September 21, 2016 [9 favorites]

Well, Al Capone was undone for tax evasion.
posted by porpoise at 1:50 PM on September 21, 2016 [29 favorites]

The New York AG might also add this bit by the aide to his list of things he's looking into regarding the Trump charity. Trouble is, his list grows longer by the day and his list may need a bigger staff to do it justice. I noticed that he remarked thatbhe was lookng into the Fahrenthold allegations and I hope he becomes aware of the aide's statements. To me, though, it doesn't matter how the money gets into the charity. What matters is the purposes and beneficiaries of its release.
posted by Silverstone at 1:50 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

My question for stats folks: I'm not much of a stats person but I know quite a few folks here are, so I'm genuinely curious: what are your opinions on Linzer's forecasting approach vs. the approaches by Nate Silver and Sam Wang, particularly the presidential forecasts?

Let's say you wanted to know how hot it was outside, but you didn't have any great thermometers. Maybe some of them had precision of +/- 2 degrees, and some had +/- 4 degrees, and a few were out in the sun, and some were in the shade. There's kind of two approaches you could take. The first is just take the average of all the thermometers you have. Individually, a single thermometer's pretty crummy, but it turns out that all of them put together might give a reasonably good guess at how hot it really is.

The more appealing way is to complicate things. There's a lot of other stuff that we know about how hot it is on a given day - is it sunny? Is it cloudy? What month is it? How hot was it this time four years ago? Does one particular brand of thermometer tend to run hot? Is one brand of thermometer really unreliable? We could record all of that information and add it into our guess about how hot it is.

The problem with the latter approach is what you could call the "baseball announcer error." You know, "Rodriguez is 4 for 5 in day games after a night game in which he got hit by a pitch and stole a base." It's possible to create a model that is too complicated. The more variables you include, the more likely it is that you'll include stuff that actually has nothing to do with how hot it is. Like maybe some researchers thirty years ago found that caterpillars are more active above a certain temperature, so you count the number of caterpillars active around your thermometers and use that in your model of how hot it is - but it turns out your caterpillars are a totally different species and don't behave the way the other ones did.

This is where the principle of parsimony comes in - your model should be "as simple as possible but no simpler." The reason PEC is so appealing is that he only uses the polls. There's no special sauce in his model - no extra variables. Sure it's usually 73 degrees on September 21, but if all the thermometers are telling you it's 62, does it really matter what the temperature was four years ago or 16 years ago?

That's just if you're wanting to know how hot it is right now. Say you wanted to know how hot it's going to be a week from now. Same problem. You could try to measure a lot of other variables to get your best guess. The other way to do it is to ask "how much does temperature usually vary over the course of one week in September"? Once you have that estimate, you can just use that to say "if it's this hot now, and temperature only varies this amount over a typical week in September, this is the range of temperatures you'd expect next week." Again, that's PEC's approach.

Linzer seems to be taking more of the Silver approach and building in a lot of extra stuff. It's not inherently wrong or bad, just a different way of analyzing / forecasting data. By the time we get to the election all of them are going to have very similar estimates. These models can get really complicated. The first step in comparing them is asking whether they make intuitive sense. Yesterday I was pointing out that the 538 estimates of Clinton's chances if she loses Iowa were way lower than they should be. That's a sign that their model's probably not working as well as it could. There's nothing that immediately stands out to me about Linzer's models that are definitely weird - I'd say the only thing is maybe his Senate forecasts seem a little over-confident for whoever's winning. He has Hassan at 34%, which seems low given how well she was performing for a lot of the summer. I don't know - it's a minor detail. Go to what works for you.
posted by one_bean at 1:51 PM on September 21, 2016 [37 favorites]

MetaFilter: The more appealing way is to complicate things.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:53 PM on September 21, 2016 [25 favorites]

> If this "surely this..." thing is what sinks him and it's tax lawyers that crush and salt his potemkin empire, I personally will find a hot tax lawyer and buy him at least a drink and *wink wink nudge nudge* breakfast.

Well, if it worked for Al Capone...

On preview, dammit porpoise beat me to it.
posted by Surely This at 1:53 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

One thing that might boost the coverage of this is that the scandal also implicates all of the donors who diverted Trump payments to the foundation. E.g., how did NBC claim the $500K donation on its returns?

And, to be clear, the Foundation scheme:
-violates personal income tax laws
-violates exempt organization tax laws
-potentially violates sales and use tax laws (if foundation used exemption when buying painting)
-potentially violates self employment tax laws (if diverted payments would have been income from self employment if paid directly to Trump)
posted by melissasaurus at 1:53 PM on September 21, 2016 [43 favorites]

This issue really doesn't seem complicated. It's so obvious that you can't do something for somebody, have them "donate" to your charity instead of paying you, and then neither of you pay taxes.

Unless I am misunderstanding, there's not really any issue with this section of things and this should be no different from "sure, I'll come speak at your event if you'll make a 20,000 donation to Planned Parenthood." The issue - and what probably makes it hard to get people to care about this - is what happens to that money once its in the foundation's hands.

If the foundation turns around and spends that $20,000 on condoms to give away to at-risk populations, no harm no foul. The issue is the same thing Farenthold was already beating the drum on - the fact that the foundation is instead spending the money to benefit Trump. See: the earlier thing that it mattered not that the foundation bought that stupid-ass giant painting of Trump, but that the painting then went on to be treated as Trump's property.

The specifics of tax law aside, I don't care if people do things in exchange for charitable donations rather than salary. So my assumption is that if you can't get me to care you're not going to have any luck with someone who is actually agnostic on Trump. The attention to this needs to be focused on the tax fraud part - the personal spending out of the foundation. Spending too much time on the "Trump had them pay the foundation" part without the follow-up is going to get people to stop listening quick.

Yeah, that's an unfair contrast to how Clinton is treated but that's the world we're in.
posted by phearlez at 1:54 PM on September 21, 2016 [9 favorites]

No, I think this particular one is just a bit dumb and has spent enough time in the TrumpOrg bubble to have internalised the family SOP. Every bit of TrumpOrg is a slush fund for every other bit. Except that using the charitable bit as a slush fund happened where Fahrenthold could (finally) see it.

It's payment under the table on a grand scale. Simple as that.

That "SEAL Team 6 of sleaze" tweet from earlier is the best one line summary of TrumpOrg/campaign.
posted by indubitable at 1:56 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Unless I am misunderstanding, there's not really any issue with this section of things and this should be no different from "sure, I'll come speak at your event if you'll make a 20,000 donation to Planned Parenthood." The issue - and what probably makes it hard to get people to care about this - is what happens to that money once its in the foundation's hands.

It absolutely does matter for Alternative Minimum Tax calculations. You're supposed to claim the money, then make the donation and take the credit.
posted by Talez at 1:57 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

What are the odds of any AG collecting any of this and taking it to a grand jury before the election? 100-1?
posted by Mister Fabulous at 1:59 PM on September 21, 2016

Their goal: to get people to turn off their televisions and talk while they watch the debates on social media.

this boils down to, would you rather hear moderate racist/sexist bullshit from your friends and family, or extreme racist/sexist bullshit from strangers?
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:59 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Talez, thank you. I thought it was supposed to work that way, but wasn't sure. Hope the IRS is watching, what with the audits and all.
posted by Silverstone at 1:59 PM on September 21, 2016

It also matters a lot if you're trying to keep your AGI below $500K so that you get NYS real estate tax breaks.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:00 PM on September 21, 2016 [34 favorites]

I would watch CSI: Tax Lawyer.

In my perfect universe there is a long-running series about forensic accounting.

I would accept a tax lawyer show as an acceptable substitute.
posted by winna at 2:01 PM on September 21, 2016 [9 favorites]

It's only a scandal if it gets reported as one. Or at all.
Considering it's NBC making the dubious donation, I imagine that's one media entity that won't touch it.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:02 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Bernie Sanders: The ‘Nation’ Interview:

I’m a United States senator, and I have a responsibility to the people of my state—also to the people of this country. The first thing that I’ve got to think about is: What does a Donald Trump presidency mean for the people of my state and for the people of this country? And for the people of the world? I think it would be an absolute disaster. It would be beyond a disaster. Therefore, as a United States senator, I’ve got to do everything that I can to make sure that Trump does not become president.

Now, do I have strong differences of opinion with Hillary Clinton? I think the whole world knows that. The goal here is not to say, “Hillary Clinton is the best thing in the history of the world—she’s great, she’s wonderful, she’s terrific.” What we should be saying is that if you look at virtually all of the issues of importance to the people of this country—issues like making public colleges and universities tuition-free—Hillary Clinton is now on record for doing that for people making $125,000 a year or less. You know what? That is pretty revolutionary. That will transform the lives of millions of families in this country. That’s what Clinton stands for.

Clinton is on record supporting a doubling of community health centers in this country, which will mean that tens of millions of people—poor people—will have access to health care that do not have it today. Is that significant? It is very significant. Clinton is on record supporting pay equity for women, so that women do not continue to make 79 cents on the dollar compared to men. I happen to believe that one of the great crises facing the planet is climate change. Donald Trump happens not to think that climate change is real. Clinton takes it seriously.

The point is not to say that we love Hillary Clinton or that we agree with her on all of the issues. The goal is to go above that and ask: Which candidate will do a better job for middle-class and working-class families? I think the answer is obvious.

posted by kirkaracha at 2:02 PM on September 21, 2016 [26 favorites]

What are the odds of any AG collecting any of this and taking it to a grand jury before the election? 100-1?

0, sadly.
posted by Justinian at 2:03 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Unless I am misunderstanding, there's not really any issue with this section of things and this should be no different from "sure, I'll come speak at your event if you'll make a 20,000 donation to Planned Parenthood." The issue - and what probably makes it hard to get people to care about this - is what happens to that money once its in the foundation's hands.

For tax purposes, it matters. As discussed in melissasaurus's link:

The IRS regulations state, “If a person renders services to a third party for the benefit of a charitable organization, any amount paid under an agreement or understanding to the charity by the third party for those services is income to the person performing the services. It doesn’t matter if the commitment to pay the earnings directly to the charity is made before the services are rendered.”

I'm no tax lawyer, but in short, if it looks like income, it's income. Money paid to a third-party at your request instead of paying you tends to look a lot like income (otherwise, I'd just tell my employer to pay a chunk of my wages directly to my landlord and, poof, my rent would be tax free). You may be able to deduct it as your own charitable contribution, but that's subject to the normal limitations, AMT, self-emplyoment taxes, state tax rules, etc... You don't get to short-circuit all that by just pretending it wasn't your money.
posted by zachlipton at 2:03 PM on September 21, 2016 [26 favorites]

So there are two separate classes of blatant tax fraud here.

One, if the donation to the "charity" is made in lieu of a fee to Trump himself, it's income for Trump and should have been declared as such.

Two, the "charity" is being used as if it were a personal bank account of Trump's that's been earmarked for charity-related expenses, including but by no means limited to actual donations, which given that it's a tax-exempt foundation is hilariously illegal.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:08 PM on September 21, 2016 [13 favorites]

NBCNews/WSJ poll, likely voters:

Clinton 43%
Trump 37%
Johnson 9%
Stein 3%
posted by strange chain at 2:08 PM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

have them "donate" to your charity instead of paying you, and then neither of you pay taxes.

This is not obvious to me at all? I remember Chelsea Clinton having her speaking fees donated to the Clinton Foundation and I didn't raise an eyebrow. What am I missing?

If the Clinton Foundation then turns around and pays for Chelsea's new car, or, by way of other random example, a 6' painting of Chelsea to hang in the office of a business she owns, there's a problem. "Please donate to my favorite charity instead of paying me" is fine.* "Charity then considers that money to be earmarked for the founder's personal use" is the problem.

So far, it's only a problem for Trump (and anyone on the foundation staff who was involved with it). If, however, the donors were aware that their money was going to a nonprofit org that Trump could use for his personal expenses, the donors also become implicit, because they're dodging taxes on those donations.

*There are, as mentioned, reporting requirements, but there's nothing shady about the act itself, and most people aren't going to care about whether the paperwork is filed correctly. The fact that misfiling it can move someone's tax status around is too complex for a soundbite talking-point.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:10 PM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

It absolutely does matter for Alternative Minimum Tax calculations. You're supposed to claim the money, then make the donation and take the credit.

I say with personal complete confidence that you will for sure never get the average person to care about this distinction. Which isn't to say I don't think it should be investigated, but as a thing to point to in order to sway voters? I don't see folks who aren't already with us in finding him to be a cheating, lying sleaze being influenced by that distinction one bit.

Now, when you can tie it to the foundation being a fake charity and spending that money on toys and baubles for Trump so he can avoid paying income tax? Sure. But that's got to be the angle for people, not the question of whether funds took a stop in a personal Trump account on their way to the foundation.
posted by phearlez at 2:10 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

In the 2-way, the same poll has
Clinton 48%
Trump 41%
posted by strange chain at 2:11 PM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

So now I'm wondering if the NYT and other compromised news organizations have been pushing the Clinton Foundation story so heavily because someone in the Trump campaign knew he was sitting on a tax scandal, and wanted to head offoff the bad publicity.

This way the public is fed both the story that the Clintons are worse, and "everybody does it." The obsessive reporting on the Clinton Foundation seems a little too convenient to be coincidental.
posted by happyroach at 2:11 PM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

One, if the donation to the "charity" is made in lieu of a fee to Trump himself, it's income for Trump and should have been declared as such.

Two, the "charity" is being used as if it were a personal bank account of Trump's that's been earmarked for charity-related expenses, including but by no means limited to actual donations, which given that it's a tax-exempt foundation is hilariously illegal.

And while it's hard to know if the income was declared properly in that first part, the second part would seem to increase the likelihood that it wasn't treated by Trump as income, so he could use the Foundation as a tax free slush fund.
posted by dnash at 2:12 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump aide just fucked up big time.

This gets into a grey area in the IRS called "constructive receipt." It says that you have constructively received income and owe income taxes on earnings for a speaking gig even if you direct it toward a charity and no money passes through your hands. So just asking the host to make out your honorarium check to a charity is constructive receipt. That appears to be what the Trump representative is admitting to.

In order to avoid constructive receipt, you must have very careful documentation in advance indicating that your services are a donation to a specific charity. You must not have control over that donation and cannot specify it for an particular use. According to Trump's spokesman, he regarded it as "his own money" which is constructive receipt.

This is a procedure the Clintons have done frequently in a perfectly legal manner. They will appear at some high end charity dinner and tell the hosts that they will split the profits between their charity and the Clinton Foundation. This is perfectly legal because it was all arranged in advance with very clear contracts. They never have constructive receipt of the money.

You might say, so what. If Trump first received the money and then donated it to his charity, it would be deductible. However, this isn't necessarily true. First he must add the earnings to his adjusted income. Then there are limits to the amount that can be deducted. In the case of Trump's private foundation, the deductions are limited to 30% of his total income. Given there are rumors that Trump has deductions reducing his income to zero, he would not be able to take the full deduction to charity. Second, income before deductions can affect application of the alternative minimum tax. So just because the money eventually ended up in his foundation does not mean that it was all legally deductible.

It does appear that Trump's spokesman is indicating constructive receipt and that the money should have been added to Trump's tax return. We don't know if this is the case because we haven't been able to see his tax returns.
posted by JackFlash at 2:12 PM on September 21, 2016 [39 favorites]

The JCPL is monitoring the NBC polls closely. Should be some state polls any minute now as well.
posted by Justinian at 2:13 PM on September 21, 2016 [12 favorites]

Assignment of income is literally taught on the first day of Federal Income Taxation (i.e. tax law 101) in law school. Who are his tax advisors??? I have to find out so I can scowl at them at conferences.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:15 PM on September 21, 2016 [38 favorites]

A compromised media is a key sign at democracies erosion.
posted by clavdivs at 2:17 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

I would watch CSI: Tax Lawyer.
In my perfect universe there is a long-running series about forensic accounting.
I held out hope that "Numb3rs" would be a show like that. But with Rob "Northern Exposure" Morrow (and Judd "Taxi" Hirsch as his father), I should've known better.

What are the odds of any AG collecting any of this and taking it to a grand jury before the election? 100-1?
0, sadly.
And one of the main goals of Trump's campaign is to keep this likelihood at 0 forever.

NBCNews/WSJ poll, likely voters:
Or to be more accurate, "Comcast/Rupert Murdoch poll"
If any pollsters may have been told to push up Deplorable Donald's numbers, it's these.
Considering the source... it's a real thing.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:17 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

I completely agree with phearlez that there's no use going any farther down the constructive-receipt rabbit hole than is absolutely necessary to explain Crime 2, because that is the sexy one. It's not an accounting juggle, it's outright fraud on the public and charities alike.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:18 PM on September 21, 2016

Assignment of income is literally taught on the first day of Federal Income Taxation (i.e. tax law 101) in law school. Who are his tax advisors??? I have to find out so I can scowl at them at conferences.

No, seriously, are we not doing "Meredith!" anymore?
posted by phearlez at 2:19 PM on September 21, 2016 [12 favorites]

Gary Johnson on MSNBC going into detail about Aleppo and northern Syria

Someone has obviously been reading wikipedia
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:22 PM on September 21, 2016 [26 favorites]

Lynne Patton will be given the ritual name of "Meredith" before she is fired like a dog
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:22 PM on September 21, 2016 [15 favorites]

Agreed, if the scandal requires explaining the AMT then let's save the hassle and crown Trump God-Emperor already.

From my vantage point the most potentially damning stories to come out of Farenthold's reporting are:

1: The Mar-A-Lago Flag payoff and

2: The 6 foot picture of Trump that Melanie bought with Foundation money.

Don't make it too complicated. Short, sweet and obviously distasteful even to people who never studied accountancy.

"Trump's such an idiot -- I mean he got in trouble because the flagpole at his club was too tall (nudge nudge) so he promised to donate to charity instead of paying the fine. Thing is he wrote the check from his own charity instead. If he's so rich why didn't he just write a personal check?

"Oh god, you're still voting for this loser? Did you hear that he had his wife put 20 grand down on a charity auction item? --and hey, surprise surprise she accidentally wrote the check off the Foundation's account. Which would be ok I guess if the item went to the foundation, but nope, it turned up decorating the walls of Mar-A-Lago. Oh also it was a six foot portrait of Trump. Who even buys a life sized picture of themselves and hangs it in the living room?

I can imagine saying all that to my Trump-voting, rural white Midwestern father-in-law. Tax arcana? Not so much.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:25 PM on September 21, 2016 [24 favorites]

My Google News feed headlines with "Wall Street Journal Federal Reserve Interest-Rate Decision: Live Updates" and there is a picture of Trump next to the article. WHY IS THERE A PICTURE OF TRUMP?!?!?!?!
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:26 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

> Could 2016 be the year that being a tax lawyer finally becomes....cool?

When I was a factchecker 15 - 20 years ago, nobody outside of the magazine publishing industry knew what the hell I was. At least now people recognize the word, although they're probably still confused about the details.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:26 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

I can totally see the productive angle on this, though.

You want to know why we can never allow Trump to be President? Because he can't be trusted with any power. He sets up a foundation for what's supposed to be charity purposes - something he can do because he started out with a pile of money from his father - and instead of using it to do good, he uses it to cheat on his taxes. Your boss gives you a paycheck, you pay your taxes on it. Trump tells people "instead of paying me, pay my foundation." He pretends he never got that money, doesn't pay taxes on it, then uses the foundation to buy things he wants. Any of you know of any charitable use for a six foot high painting of Donald Trump? That bit of charity is in one of his resorts where you can pay to stay and see it Any of you get a charitable deduction the last time you bought sofa cushions?

posted by phearlez at 2:27 PM on September 21, 2016 [44 favorites]

Regardless of when an AG convenes a grand jury (as long as we're talking a reasonable time frame and not endlessly postponing the case until Trump [God forbid] leaves office), I am fine with it. Usually I want to forget campaign wounds after an election to try to unify behind an elected official. Not this time. Oh no, never in this case.
posted by Silverstone at 2:28 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

The GOP’s Jewish Donors Are Abandoning Trump

"In 2012, 71 percent of the $240 million that Jewish donors gave to the two major-party nominees went to President Obama’s re-election campaign; 29 percent went to Mitt Romney’s campaign, according to our analysis of campaign contributors, which used a predictive model to estimate which donors are Jewish based on their names and other characteristics. This ratio of support mirrors how Jewish voters cast their ballots in 2012.

So far in 2016, of all the money given to major-party candidates by donors who appear to be Jewish, 96 percent has gone to Hillary Clinton and just 4 percent has gone to Donald Trump."
posted by chris24 at 2:29 PM on September 21, 2016 [16 favorites]

Gary Johnson on MSNBC going into detail about Aleppo and northern Syria

Someone has obviously been reading wikipedia

"Governor Johnson, what are your thoughts on the latest developments in Aleppo?"

"Well, Chris, as you know—Aleppo is an American brand of dog food marketed and manufactured by the Nestlé Purina PetCare subsidiary of Nestlé. The brand is offered as a canned or packaged soft food, as well as in dry kibbles. Aleppo, an abbreviation of Allen Products, was founded in 1936 by Robert F. Hunsicker in Allentown, Pennsylvania..."
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:30 PM on September 21, 2016 [38 favorites]

phearlez: Your boss gives you a paycheck, you pay your taxes on it. Trump tells people "instead of paying me, pay my foundation." He pretends he never got that money, doesn't pay taxes on it, then uses the foundation to buy things he wants.

That seems to me a very layperson-friendly way of explaining why the assignment of income rules were violated in the described case; I think if approached like this, some people may be interested that aspect of things too.

Especially since it points out the part where this is directly unfair to said laypeople.
posted by seyirci at 2:30 PM on September 21, 2016 [12 favorites]

> Full interview of Burnett vs Conway

Transcript annotated at the WaPo, titled "Donald Trump’s campaign manager has no clue what a press conference is"

Conway: Mr. Trump is out there, we have the press pool with us every day. He is in public places at rallies with voters....

...he gives press availability every day by doing these rallies in these swing states where he is every single day and they are there with him.

Chris Cillizza's note: Ok. A “press availability” is when the candidate is made available to the media covering him or her.

That’s not what is happening here. What Conway is describing is more like a “press is there.” Yes, the media covers Donald Trump’s public events. No, that isn;t even close to the same thing as a media availability or a press conference.

posted by morganw at 2:31 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Who are his tax advisors??? I have to find out so I can scowl at them at conferences.

The tax attorneys who signed the letter about TrumpOrg being under "continuous" audit are William F. Nelson (a former IRS chief counsel!) and Sherri Dillon of white-shoe firm Morgan Lewis. So.
posted by holgate at 2:33 PM on September 21, 2016

Who are his tax advisors???

He may not have any. He may just send paperwork to his tax preparers saying "these are my revenues" and "these are my deductions", just fill out the forms. Accountants are rarely held liable if they simply accept their client's representations and don't ask too many questions. If caught, both Trump and his accountants can just play dumb.
posted by JackFlash at 2:34 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Don't make it too complicated. Short, sweet and obviously distasteful even to people who never studied accountancy.

"Trump's such an idiot -- I mean he got in trouble because the flagpole at his club was too tall (nudge nudge) so he promised to donate to charity instead of paying the fine. Thing is he wrote the check from his own charity instead. If he's so rich why didn't he just write a personal check?

Even that sort of explanation seems likely to be shrugged off by a large portion of Trump's base:

A dispute over the size of a flagpole? Try recounting this to your Fox-obsessed uncle, and I guarantee that that's the detail he'll seize on. The damn government shouldn't be telling people what size flagpole they're allowed to have!

The larger issue, of course, is that if this is a charitable foundation, certain laws apply regarding the tax status of donations, and there are restrictions on the outlays. Sensible people can understand that, and realize that it's not right to take money earmarked for charity and use it for other purposes. But to your Fox-watching uncle, all taxation is theft. Therefore it shouldn't matter what Trump does with his charity's money (even if it's money given to the foundation by other people, as Farenthold makes clear it is). It was given to him, it's his damn money, and he should be able to do with it what he pleases. Is this America or commie Russia?

posted by tonycpsu at 2:35 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Accountants are rarely held liable if they simply accept their client's representations and don't ask too many questions. If caught, both Trump and his accountants can just play dumb.

This is so so true.

I still plan to scowl.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:35 PM on September 21, 2016 [14 favorites]

This election season's scarcity of evens is matched only by its surplus of scowls.
posted by strange chain at 2:36 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

white-shoe firm Morgan Lewis

Somewhere, a Wachtell partner just choked on their tongue.

/lawyer snark
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:36 PM on September 21, 2016 [10 favorites]

Full interview of Burnett vs Conway

Please tell me they re-enacted one of their famous "Mr. Tudball and Mrs. Wiggins" sketches!
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:39 PM on September 21, 2016 [13 favorites]

The JCPL is monitoring the NBC polls closely.

Shit, has it achieved sentience already? This can't bode well
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:40 PM on September 21, 2016 [31 favorites]

What's the deal with the Eric Trump Foundation? Is that one legit? Why don't the other kids have foundations, or do they?
posted by melissasaurus at 2:41 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Even that sort of explanation seems likely to be shrugged off by a large portion of Trump's base:

Meh. Trump's best polling has him winning in a squeaker, not a landslide, so stories that only get through to a small portion of his base can still save humanity.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:41 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Morgan Lewis lawyers wrote the letter, but Trump's accountants are at WeiserMazars, which caused Crain's to engage in a bit of snobbery (ok, a ton of snobbery, the article even takes the time to highlight the fact that "many of the firm’s leaders, including its CEO, are alumni of city colleges") back in March: Donald Trump's unlikely accountant.
posted by zachlipton at 2:41 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

I lost track of all the election-thread in-jokes. What was JCPL again?
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 2:42 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump will propose nationwide stop-and-frisk to address violence in black community

I have two thoughts on this latest development in Trumps strategy to connect with the African American community. One, does he understand what is meant by doing "outreach"? Second, is it possible he misheard "outreach" and is going with "outrage"?
posted by nubs at 2:42 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

> This election season's scarcity of evens is matched only by its surplus of scowls.

I read this as surplus of owls and thought well, that's not a bad thing, really.
posted by rtha at 2:44 PM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

I don't get why some of you think the "in lieu of payment" angle is too complicated.
posted by diogenes at 2:45 PM on September 21, 2016

I lost track of all the election-thread in-jokes. What was JCPL again?

JCPiLlary
posted by beerperson at 2:45 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Even that sort of explanation seems likely to be shrugged off by a large portion of Trump's base:

Kellyanne Conway in the WaPo piece linked above:

"He wanted to raise the American flag as high as he possibly could over Mar-a-Lago. I think a lot of Americans at this point would applaud that."

posted by zakur at 2:45 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sander Levin has asked the IRS to investigate the self-dealing.
posted by Talez at 2:46 PM on September 21, 2016 [19 favorites]

Buddha - Justinian Current Panic Level
posted by numaner at 2:48 PM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

I like how that letter uses an "as you know" paragraph to make it clear to his public audience what is going on.
posted by nubs at 2:49 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

"He wanted to raise the American flag as high as he possibly could over Mar-a-Lago. I think a lot of Americans at this point would applaud that."

This has been bugging me all day. Why is an 80-foot flag pole "as high as he possibly could?" Surely he could build an even taller one if that was actually his aim? In any normal sense, the highest he "possibly could" would be the legal 42 foot limit.
posted by zachlipton at 2:50 PM on September 21, 2016 [10 favorites]

Soon I will start speaking entirely in personal acronyms so y'all better keep up.
posted by Justinian at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2016 [23 favorites]

He wanted to raise the American flag as high as he possibly could over Mar-a-Lago.

So, like a gobshite car dealer.

I think a lot of Americans at this point would applaud that.

As long as it's flapping away constantly within close range whenever the wind gets up past 10mph.
posted by holgate at 2:52 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

What was JCPL again?

Justinian Current Panic Level.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:53 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

I like how that letter uses an "as you know" paragraph to make it clear to his public audience what is going on.

Ah yes, the as you know (warning: tvtropes link, do not click if you want to have an afternoon) school of exposition. The writers of the 2016 dumpster fire really got lazy.
posted by zachlipton at 2:53 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

One, does he understand what is meant by doing "outreach"? Second, is it possible he misheard "outreach" and is going with "outrage"?

You can't frisk without reaching out.
posted by AndrewInDC at 2:54 PM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

I suspect that most lower middle class/no college folks figure anyone rich enough to have a foundation is using it as some kind of tax dodge. The key is that the perception among those people is that Trump was just doing ha ha, screw the government business, whereas Hillary was using her foundation for evil elite female political stuff. It's just misogyny/Clinton hate all the way down.
posted by valkane at 2:54 PM on September 21, 2016 [17 favorites]

Lynne Patton will be given the ritual name of "Meredith" before she is fired like a dog.

See, this makes me think they remade "The Wicker Man" a few years too soon. I can just imagine a gleefully zombified Christopher Lee pushing The New Meredith kicking and screaming into the Man, as the villagers approach with their torches.
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:55 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

At this same point in 2012, NBC/WSJ had Obama up 5% over Romney with likely voters, so Clinton is outperforming him by 2%.
posted by chris24 at 2:57 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

I wonder why the apparent tax fraud didn't come up in any GOP primary oppo research, or the RNC's vetting. His foundation's records serms like the first place you'd go.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:58 PM on September 21, 2016 [31 favorites]

the NCPL usually is at low because I'm constantly drinking. it spikes when I see a link here that makes me go WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK. but the drinking works.
posted by numaner at 2:58 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Ah yes, the as you know (warning: tvtropes link, do not click if you want to have an afternoon) school of exposition. The writers of the 2016 dumpster fire really got lazy.

Not so much lazy as giving a textbook example of why it gets done; so that the real audience gets brought up to speed. There's no time for a Watson in a letter, so it might even been a rare sighting of a legitimate usage.
posted by nubs at 3:00 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

I wonder why the apparent tax fraud didn't come up in any GOP primary oppo research, or the RNC's vetting.

I can't remember who tweeted it yesterday, but someone basically said 'So none of his primary opponents wanted to win enough to spend two grand in oppo research?'
posted by chris24 at 3:00 PM on September 21, 2016 [26 favorites]

One, does he understand what is meant by doing "outreach"? Second, is it possible he misheard "outreach" and is going with "outrage"?

We'll have outreach (What?)
Outrage (What?)
Say wild shit
up onstage (Chick-a-pow)

/Hamilaria
posted by Superplin at 3:02 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Atlantic: How Did Disabilities Become a Partisan Issue?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:03 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

My response to the "yeah but JACKBOOTED FLAGPOLE HEIGHT INSPECTOR BUREAUCRATIC TYRANNY would be, ok, but he didn't actually take a stand for FREEDOM, he backed down and weaseled out of the fine with a phony donation using other people's money.

The goal is for people to see Trump not as a devil-may-care, devious Dealmaker For The People but as a cowardly, stupid egomaniac. Happily, he's not as good at hiding his tracks as he thinks.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:03 PM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

I wonder why the apparent tax fraud didn't come up in any GOP primary oppo research, or the RNC's vetting.

RNC PR BS
posted by strange chain at 3:12 PM on September 21, 2016 [9 favorites]

I wonder why the apparent tax fraud didn't come up in any GOP primary oppo research, or the RNC's vetting.

Because mutually assured destruction. These people up against Trump don't go back to some private sector that doesn't give a shit. They go back to their constituents. If someone goes after the Trump Foundation then you can guarantee Trump is going to find and come down on everything down to your last parking ticket. None of the GOP field was clean enough to risk playing that game with Trump. Not if they ever wanted to be reelected to their current position if they failed.
posted by Talez at 3:16 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Whoever had Cruz changing his tune towards Trump two months after the RNC wins the pot: Cruz warms to Trump
posted by Superplin at 3:16 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

IMMIGRATION: helps us more v. hurts us more

July 2015: 47 helps v. 43 hurts

Today: 54 helps v. 35 hurts

via NBC/WSJ poll

So Trump has turned the attitude the opposite way from his goal.
posted by chris24 at 3:21 PM on September 21, 2016 [43 favorites]

At a minimum Trump's charity self dealing and purchases are hundreds of thousands of dollars in unreported income and should be subject to fine and back taxes. The IRS examiners have to decide if this merits a criminal investigation.

I assume this blatant tax fraud didn't come up during the primaries because the Republican candidates were historically inept.
posted by humanfont at 3:22 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

Yeah but oppo is frequently leaked through unaffiliated individuals, PACs, or journalists (who protect the source). Some juicy opportunity has remained source-obscured long term. It wouldn't have to tie to, say, Cruz. And once Jeb was out he just could have scorched the earth there as publicly as he wanted to. I don't get it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:23 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Circling back for a second to that Trump Scandals Cheat Sheet linked up thread...

Is there a reason why these child rape allegations aren't on it?

I don't even remember discussing this suit on these threads before, for that matter.

I realize this is just an accusation, nothing proved, but the same could be said for many of the scandals on that Atlantic list, and pretty much all of the "Clinton scandals" the media endlessly talks about.

Why do these child rape allegations just never come up? Was this discredited, and I just didn't year about it? (And neither did Snopes?)
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:23 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

What Trump has lied about in the past 24 hours. Latest in an ongoing series.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:24 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Drew Magary on Trump voters
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:26 PM on September 21, 2016 [18 favorites]

What was JCPL again?
Justinian Current Panic Level.

I once worked in Pasadena, just down the road from NASA/CalTech's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), so I think of it every time I see "JCPL", and the image of giant jet engines being test-fired is oddly relaxing to me.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:29 PM on September 21, 2016 [9 favorites]

Another immigration data point:

NBC/WSJ poll, preference on "dealing with immigration": Clinton 50%, Trump 39%
posted by chris24 at 3:29 PM on September 21, 2016 [10 favorites]

Why do these child rape allegations just never come up? Was this discredited, and I just didn't year about it? (And neither did Snopes?)

At the bottom of the page you linked to there's a link to another Snopes page, Rape Lawsuit Against Donald Trump Dismissed—for Now; The plaintiff's attorney says the lawsuit was will be refiled with information from a new witness, dated Monday.
posted by XMLicious at 3:31 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

And to fuel the millennial vs. Gen-X vs. boomer feud:

NBC/WSJ poll: Clinton has smaller margin than Obama w/ages 18-29 (+16 vs +23) but does better w/30-44 (+18 vs +7) and 65+ (+2 vs -12)
posted by chris24 at 3:32 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

Awwww yisss, Gen-X. Finally our time to shine?

Naw.
posted by Justinian at 3:34 PM on September 21, 2016 [24 favorites]

What's the deal with the Eric Trump Foundation? Is that one legit?

Eric Trump's foundation is a public charity. He runs a golf invitational once a year at the Trump Golf Club in Westchester, raising about $1 million or so. As it happens, the event was just this last Sunday. Most of the money goes as a grant to St. Judes Hospital in Memphis. That's pretty much the whole charity-- one fundraising event and one big grant.

So it seems legit. Well, of course there is the money that goes to Donald Trump's golf course as expenses for hosting the event.
posted by JackFlash at 3:41 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

I thought 30-36 is older millennial. What am I????
posted by asteria at 3:43 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

tfw you thought you were a snake person and now must seek out a new generational identity.
posted by zachlipton at 3:45 PM on September 21, 2016 [25 favorites]

Being born in the early 80s puts you right on the border between X and Millenial. IE the Oregon Trail Generation.
posted by Justinian at 3:47 PM on September 21, 2016 [47 favorites]

I wonder why the apparent tax fraud didn't come up in any GOP primary oppo research

Republicans hate taxes and they hate the IRS. You don't win points with Republicans by taking the side of the IRS against a fellow Republican. Trump has made a big deal about paying as little in taxes as possible and Trumpers admire him for that.
posted by JackFlash at 3:50 PM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

shoutout to my oregon trail people, we who survived the dysentery
posted by you're a kitty! at 3:50 PM on September 21, 2016 [74 favorites]

Born in 1980. I've been struggling with that for YEARS!
posted by VTX at 3:51 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

the Oregon Trail Generation

We learned at an early age that playing as The Banker was playing on Easy Mode.
posted by Servo5678 at 3:51 PM on September 21, 2016 [36 favorites]

we survived the dysentery

...so far. Dysentery is never defeated, it's on the ballot again in November.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:51 PM on September 21, 2016 [11 favorites]

Re the Eric Trump Foundation, is he the one that does trophy hunting? I just saw a thing on this last night (on the show Adam Ruins Everything) where most of those hunting licenses are sold by either the state or wildlife conservancy orgs at exorbitant prices, the proceeds of which go to conservation efforts and/or into impoverished local communities to discourage poaching. Could that be the sort of expenditure you'd want to funnel through a personal nonprofit?

Not saying I agree with trophy hunting, but if it does involve mandatory charitable giving, maybe it would inspire a (deplorable) trophy hunter to start a foundation?
posted by Sara C. at 3:52 PM on September 21, 2016

Also in my experience being born between 1980-1985 means you get to pick whether to identify as a millennial or hate on them.
posted by Sara C. at 3:56 PM on September 21, 2016 [18 favorites]

Fuck, I needed that Drew Magary piece that prize bull octorok linked to.

And so I’d just like to say to that portion of the electorate: Fuck you. No, seriously. Go fuck yourselves. I’m not gonna waste any more time trying to convince you that you’re about to do something you’ll regret forever. I’m not gonna show you old clips of Trump saying rotten things. I’m not gonna try to ANNIHILATE Trump by showing you records of his hypocrisy and greed. I’m not gonna link to a John Oliver clip and be like, “THIS. So much this.” Nothing’s gonna take down Trump at this point, so I’m not gonna bother. No no, this post is for ME. I am preaching to the sad little choir in my soul here.

Because while Trump is a miserable bastard, YOU are the people who have handed him the bullhorn. YOU are the people willing to embarrass this nation and put it on the brink of economic ruin all because you wanna throw an electoral hissy fit. YOU are the people who want to revolutionize the way America does business by voting for its worst businessman, a disgusting neon pig who only makes money when he causes problems for other people instead of solving them. YOU are the thin-skinned yokels who clutch your bandoliers whenever someone hurls the mildest of slurs at you (“deplorables”), while cheering Trump on as he leaves a bonfire of truly hateful invective everywhere he goes. YOU are the people willing to overlook the fact that Trump is an unqualified, ignorant sociopath because DURRRR HILLARY IS BAD TOO DURRRR.

Every offensive/ignorant/illegal crap that Trump pulls with complete impunity is just another reminder of how much millions of people in this country hate women.
posted by bibliowench at 3:57 PM on September 21, 2016 [55 favorites]

Just seems weird to me that Ivanka and Jr don't have this grift running for themselves. Though perhaps they decided it's too obviously a tax shelter and have more sophisticated schemes. Or, maybe they decided that it's not necessary to even appear philanthropic anymore.
posted by melissasaurus at 3:57 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Rape Lawsuit Against Donald Trump Dismissed—for Now; The plaintiff's attorney says the lawsuit was will be refiled with information from a new witness

Thanks, I missed that... though since it's not like the accusation has not been discussed yet really at all. Maybe it's good? Maybe it will make the news when it's refiled, and because it hasn't already been discussed, it will count as an October "surprise"? And the ripples won't die down before the election?
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:58 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

1980-1985 means you get to pick whether to identify as a millennial or hate on them.

I've been doing both.
posted by asteria at 3:59 PM on September 21, 2016 [34 favorites]

A sack of meat that can generate the electrical current needed to run atemporal simulation software based on stored imprints of euclidean space from specialized data collectors, in addition to quantum inputs from within the machine.

Peter? Peter Watts? Is that you?
posted by adamgreenfield at 4:05 PM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

Ivanka has several whole lines of sweatshop shoes and dresses, she's trying to go legit.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:05 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

I suspect he was also behind the hamdog post.
posted by Artw at 4:06 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Another good ad reaching out to disabled voters from Clinton:

We need a president who sees the best in all of us.
posted by chris24 at 4:06 PM on September 21, 2016 [11 favorites]

a student of mine who is black, Islamic, and receiving disability has given me valuable advice on a) how to repair garments via this strange art called sewing and b) the early symptoms of menopause. She wears a hijab that goes from head to foot, with only her eyes showing.

What I'm saying is that this person, just this week, has improved the quality of my life. She and her daughter were spit on (in Texas) shortly after 9/11.

If Donald Trump decided he needed to permanently shove his head up his asshole, that would improve the quality of my life too, but I digress.
posted by angrycat at 4:06 PM on September 21, 2016 [36 favorites]

Drew Magary is also the writer that rips the annual Williams Sonoma Christmas catalog. He is a treasure.
posted by Sophie1 at 4:08 PM on September 21, 2016 [11 favorites]

The GOP would like some help in preparing The Donald for the debates.. If you feel like helping them, be aware they ask for your contact info and a donation request afterwards which my good friend Meredith McGyver declined to furnish.
posted by TwoWordReview at 4:17 PM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

Every offensive/ignorant/illegal crap that Trump pulls with complete impunity is just another reminder of how much millions of people in this country hate women.

QFT.
posted by Dashy at 4:20 PM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

DON KING!
MA-NA
posted by clavdivs at 4:21 PM on September 21, 2016

From HuffPo: One Democrat, Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-Ill.), elevated the exercise to A-level trolling by opening his round of questions while munching on a bag of Skittles in a reminder of Donald Trump Jr.’s recent gaffe about Syrian refugees and the likelihood that they “would kill you.”
posted by Sophie1 at 4:21 PM on September 21, 2016 [21 favorites]

The GOP would like some help in preparing The Donald for the debates..

No push polling here, folks!

Just kidding... it's sole purpose to exist is to push poll.
posted by Talez at 4:22 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

The GOP would like some help in preparing The Donald for the debates.

28. Should Trump continue to describe himself as an outsider ready to take on the gridlock, corruption, and waste of Washington -- everything that Hillary represents?

Yeah, this seems like a legit survey...
posted by zachlipton at 4:24 PM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

Wherein Trump admits he only said Obama was born in the US so he could get on with his campaign:

BG: "This announcement earlier this week with you saying that you believe President Obama was in fact born in the United States, after all the years where you've expressed some doubt, what changed?

Trump: "Well I just wanted to get on with, I wanted to get on with the campaign. A lot of people were asking me questions. We want to talk about jobs. We want to talk about the military. We want to talk about ISIS and get rid of ISIS. We want to talk about bringing jobs back to this area because you've been decimated so we just wanted to get back on the subject of jobs, military, taking care of our vets, etc."
posted by chris24 at 4:26 PM on September 21, 2016 [13 favorites]

And gives a nonsensical answer to a question about his Foundation.

BG: "And with the Washington Post report out this week about the Trump Foundation. Could you explain to people why you may have used some charitable donations for personal uses?

Trump: "The foundation is really rare. It gives money to that. It's really been doing a good job. I think we put that to sleep just by putting out the last report."
posted by chris24 at 4:28 PM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

"The foundation is really rare. It gives money to that."

Buh?

" It's really been doing a good job. I think we put that to sleep just by putting out the last report."

Snuh.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:34 PM on September 21, 2016 [35 favorites]

I know, it's like Donald starts talking and pauses, like he left the flamethrower on at home.
posted by clavdivs at 4:38 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

1980-1985 means you get to pick whether to identify as a millennial or hate on them.
I've been doing both.
1955... ten years into the "Baby Boom" and I do both with the Boomers.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:39 PM on September 21, 2016

Chris Hayes: Mark it: if Trump loses narrowly in 2016, he's running again in 2020.

Now Donald Trump Jr. says he would “love” to run for office “as a patriot”

Donald Trump Jr. and the white nationalist alt-right: A pattern that goes way beyond coincidence
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:39 PM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

"The foundation is really rare. It gives money to that."

probably a transcription error tbh
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:43 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

David Farenthold was interviewed about his WaPo story by NPR's On Point today (On Point, direct audio link) for most of the hour. Interesting to hear some more details about his reporting and findings. But even better to hear a few conservative callers cite this specific story as the wake-up call out of their Trump spell.
posted by p3t3 at 4:46 PM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

The GOP would like some help in preparing The Donald for the debates..

this is great:

3.Should Trump focus more of his time attacking Hillary’s policies or defending his own agenda?

*Other : Be less racist!

4.Should Trump focus more of his time attacking Hillary’s policies or defending his own agenda?

Other: Fuck You!

etc.
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:47 PM on September 21, 2016

I wonder why the apparent tax fraud didn't come up in any GOP primary oppo research, or the RNC's vetting. His foundation's records serms like the first place you'd go.

In addition to what's already been said I think there were two other factors:

1) Trump, you will remember, was continually threatening to bolt the party and run as a third-party candidate if he was treated in any manner he claimed to perceive to be unfair. So the GOP was basically taken hostage and unable to fight back against him with the same viciousness with which he went after everybody else.

2) They were unusually slow to recognize that Trump's numbers weren't going to collapse like other joke/vanity candidates in recent years had. (Remember that in 2008 the GOP went through 9 different polling frontrunners, including at different points Rick Santorum, Herman Cain, and Michelle Bachmann.) By the time they realized he was a serious contender he had enough of the party committed to him that they couldn't get their hands dirty nuking him anymore.
posted by gerryblog at 4:49 PM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's also us Gen-X'ers that remember the Moral Majority screaming at the top of their lungs about the corrupting influence of TV and media, and decrying Bill Clinton's undignified behavior, and now we see the same people loyal to a womanizing narcissistic game show celebrity.

I guess they were right about the corrupting influence thing.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:55 PM on September 21, 2016 [53 favorites]

I heard 'the foundation is really there...it sets up money...it gives money to vets...'
posted by TwoWordReview at 4:56 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'd love some audio or video from that "The Nation" interview with Sanders, just for the fun I could have with selective editing...

“Hillary Clinton is the best thing in the history of the world—she’s great, she’s wonderful, she’s terrific.” -Bernie Sanders
posted by MysticMCJ at 4:57 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

so those latest numbers:
do they reflect news of the bombing attempt or whatever we're calling it?
posted by angrycat at 4:59 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah, bad transcription in the article on the Foundation answer. I couldn't watch it on my phone so went with the text. My bad.
posted by chris24 at 5:04 PM on September 21, 2016

Clinton Ignores Trump. I think this is the best strategy, she shouldn't even mention him for the rest of the campaign, except for the debates. Let the surrogates talk about what a horrible racist Donald is and what deplorable folks his followers are, and focus on what she can do for the country.

Bonus: Ignoring Trump will make him act out more and more, just like when I used to ignore my 10-year-old.
posted by mmoncur at 5:08 PM on September 21, 2016 [19 favorites]

do they reflect news of the bombing attempt or whatever we're calling it?

The NBC/WSJ poll was conducted 9/16-19. So two days pre-bombing, two days post.
posted by chris24 at 5:09 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Having just watched the video: pretty sure he actually says 'gives money to vets,' which makes his answer marginally more intelligible but still entirely a dodge.

I wish journalists would follow up with "Why do the records show your foundation only gave $x to vets organizations?"
posted by drezdn at 5:19 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

This is Know-Nothing nativism all over again, and we got through it okay before. But I'm so worried. I try to imagine waking up on November 9th to President-Elect Trump and my brain stalls out in terror.

I wish I could offer confidence, here. But I'm frankly not sure that the Know-Nothings, the Xenophobes, the Racists, the Sexists, the Accelerationists, the Privileged Disaffected, and all who are playing My First Realpolitik by enabling those groups and their small, cruel, hateful avatar are outnumbered yet in 2016.

Basket of Deplorables? It's the Perfect Storm of the Temper Tantrum Coalition. And there is a good chance that they're going to win. Not an even chance, but the simple fact that Trump is polling anywhere above the looney-27% threshold is an utter indictment on the very soul of this nation.

I had a frisson of schadenfreude when I watched the UK shoot itself in the face with Brexit. I might have to watch my own country cram a live grenade up its own ass.
posted by tclark at 5:25 PM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

David Fahrenthold is on MSNBC after the current break so anyone keen to see this issue get dissected tune in!
posted by Talez at 5:29 PM on September 21, 2016

I'm in my kitchen cooking dinner, with Chris Hayes's show on. I hear him do a promo that Fahrenthold from the Washington Post is going to be on next to "respond to the Trump campaign's attacks." And I'm like, the Trumps didn't even "attack." All they said was "he's wrong and inaccurate" but they never said what was wrong or inaccurate. That doesn't count as an "attack."

"Look, this isn't an argument, this is just contradiction."

"No it isn't."

"Yes it is."

"No it isn't."
posted by dnash at 5:32 PM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

Fahrenthold, we appreciate your high visibility, but don't stop working on the Next Trump Outrage to appear on every channel... just say no to ESPN.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:32 PM on September 21, 2016

Sitting in traffic today I passed by a car that had a Bernie bumper sticker and then a Johnson/Weld sticker on the driver's side window. The occupant was indeed a twenty-something grad-student-looking (and given the neighborhood, grad student likelihood if you're over 20 and not wearing tzitziyot quickly approaches 1) white dude, the vehicle was an old beater VW pickup.

I will take my bingo prize in cash on my way out.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:32 PM on September 21, 2016 [20 favorites]

Justinian: Awwww yisss, Gen-X. Finally our time to shine?

Naw. Oh well, whatever, never mind.

FTFY
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:35 PM on September 21, 2016 [23 favorites]

Here it comes. They noticed.
posted by Talez at 5:35 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wired looks at the campaigns' mobile apps.

tl;dc, hover for the url
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:37 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well that was kind of a disappointment.
posted by Talez at 5:37 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Sanders-turned-Johnson voter, who just can't decide if we should have a government-run single-payer healthcare system, or simply no government at all. I mean, they're both appealing, so why not?
posted by 0xFCAF at 5:39 PM on September 21, 2016 [22 favorites]

hey gang i know this is a bit off topic but eric and donald trump jr are basically crabbe and goyle made flesh, right?
posted by Tevin at 5:42 PM on September 21, 2016 [37 favorites]

I hear him do a promo that Fahrenthold from the Washington Post is going to be on next to "respond to the Trump campaign's attacks." And I'm like, the Trumps didn't even 'attack.' All they said was 'he's wrong and inaccurate' but they never said what was wrong or inaccurate. That doesn't count as an 'attack.'

Attack #1:

The Post’s reporting is peppered with inaccuracies and omissions from a biased reporter who is clearly intent on distracting attention away from the corrupt Clinton Foundation, a vehicle for the Clintons to peddle influence at the expense of the American people.

Attack #2:

Donald Trump's campaign manager was questioned by CNN's Erin Burnett over the Trump Foundation's alleged illegal operations and Kellyanne Conway claimed the Washington Post reporter covering the story was "obsessed" with Donald Trump.

She said, "...this Washington Post reporter seems a little obsessed with Donald Trump these days."

posted by kirkaracha at 5:45 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

She said, "...this Washington Post reporter seems a little obsessed with Donald Trump these days."

I really, really hate her.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:48 PM on September 21, 2016 [22 favorites]

from the Department of the Blazingly Obvious: NOBODY is more obsessed with Donald Trump than Donald Trump.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:49 PM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

Whether or not a reporter is obsessed with Trump is immaterial to whether Trump broke the law.

The Mouth of Trump is trying to play it off as some weird vendetta but a lot really depends on whether other journalists start circling now that they start smelling blood in the water.
posted by vuron at 5:53 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

This Trump/Hannity thing is really really gross.
posted by melissasaurus at 6:01 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

For a bit of levity, I bring you Studio Notes on the 2016 Presidential Election screenplay. This is good comedy (although I bristled at their Tim Kaine joke, because I dig our National Dad).
posted by Superplin at 6:02 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

The 2016 Election Fact Checker (intro) is the Washington Post's "guide to every fact check of Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. You can can sort by date, Pinocchio rating, or various topic areas. The guide will be updated daily until the election."
posted by kirkaracha at 6:04 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

The Mouth of Trump

Speaker For Animals
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:04 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Pinocchio rating

I think they're changing that to "Trump rating" after this election.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:06 PM on September 21, 2016

For those worried about the Satanic attack on Trump, he's got it covered.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:06 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

OnceUponATime, the Trump child rape allegations are incredibly dubious. That's why nobody is reporting about them. Jezebel had a few stories on the allegations and the people behind the allegations. It would be difficult to imagine a less credible bunch. The ringleader has had a long history of bizarre and sensational celebrity hoaxes detailed in the second article.
posted by vathek at 6:09 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

This Trump/Hannity thing is really really gross.

That's definitely some sleight of hand—you can adjust the definition of "youth" to make any percentage unemployment true.
posted by XMLicious at 6:09 PM on September 21, 2016

Trump will propose nationwide stop-and-frisk to address violence in black community 2nite on Hannity:

Holy shit. This isn't really happening is it?

I'm more impressed with how he, apparently, got his instructions for the next strategic move from that Nazi time capsule already.
posted by RolandOfEld at 6:16 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Deseret News: Donald Trump Jr. defends comparing refugees to candy that 'would kill you' He says his father is running on 'values held dear' by Utahns

Trump Jr. also said even though his father has spoken of a "tremendous problem" with Utah, he doesn't really have issues with the state's voters because he's running for president on "so many of those values held dear in this community."

He said Utahns may have an "impression of a different guy" because of Trump's brash nature and conflict with the Republicans' 2012 presidential nominee, Mitt Romney.

"There's egos at those levels," Trump Jr. said of Romney's criticism of his father, which included labeling the billionaire businessman a fraud and a phony in a speech at the University of Utah earlier this year.

Trump, who finished a distant third in Utah's GOP presidential preference caucus vote in March, now leads Democrat Hillary Clinton in polls of the state's voters and will win here in November, his son said.[...]

Trump Jr. also said his father will not release his tax returns until an audit is completed, despite mounting questions about his personal wealth and charitable contributions.

He suggested the tax returns would be a distraction to voters at this point in the campaign.

"What we don't want to do is take away from the narrative," Trump Jr. said, calling it "foolish" to open up thousands of pages of tax returns to "300 million independent auditors."

He also referred to the Trump rallies as "almost a rock concert for people who are fed up."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:17 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Chris Hayes: Mark it: if Trump loses narrowly in 2016, he's running again in 2020.

Now Donald Trump Jr. says he would “love” to run for office “as a patriot”

Donald Trump Jr. and the white nationalist alt-right: A pattern that goes way beyond coincidence

Well, people seemed tired of Bushes and Clintons being the only political dynasties. A couple of campaigns with Eric will make you miss Jeb!
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:19 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Here we are now. Entertain us.

(So I guess my generation literally asked for this.

More Than This.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:20 PM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

Proposing a police state for black communities under the auspices of being for their own good in front of an audience of white people is some evil fucking fascist apartheid shit.
posted by holgate at 6:21 PM on September 21, 2016 [125 favorites]

Proposing a police state for black communities under the auspices of being for their own good in front of an audience of white people is some evil fucking fascist apartheid shit.

Welcome to 1964 2016.
posted by Talez at 6:25 PM on September 21, 2016

Sopan Deb is posting more transcripts from the Hannity thing. It's really bad. Some choice points:
-Trump has "made a point to go to Black churches" [link]
-Trump has "nothing but diversity working for him" and people are only calling him racist because he's winning so much [link]
-Don King was there [link]
posted by melissasaurus at 6:26 PM on September 21, 2016

CBSN reporting someone was killed in the Charlotte, NC protest.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:28 PM on September 21, 2016

He also referred to the Trump rallies as "almost a rock concert for people who are fed up."

That fits. I'd probably be fed up before I even made it through the parking lot at a Trump rally.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:29 PM on September 21, 2016

""made a point to go to Black churches""

Just not at the same time as black people.
posted by Mitheral at 6:29 PM on September 21, 2016 [34 favorites]

ChurchHatesTucker: The Atlantic: How Did Disabilities Become a Partisan Issue?

Two things: social support systems became "entitlements," and Trump is campaigning for the Strong, White Race, which has no place for weaklings. Wartime, Adolf Hitler suggested, "was the best time for the elimination of the incurably ill." Many Germans did not want to be reminded of individuals who did not measure up to their concept of a "master race."
posted by filthy light thief at 6:29 PM on September 21, 2016 [9 favorites]

Here we are now. Entertain us.

(So I guess my generation literally asked for this.

More Than This.

Live Through This.
posted by Rat Spatula at 6:33 PM on September 21, 2016 [12 favorites]

Oh dear, another police shooting, this time at a Charlotte protest.
posted by lkc at 6:34 PM on September 21, 2016

According to other reports the shooting at the protest did not involve police. The CNN article transitions awkwardly from the protests to an account of the killing that the protests are about, of Keith Lamont Scott on Tuesday.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:39 PM on September 21, 2016

Proposing a police state for black communities under the auspices of being for their own good in front of an audience of white people is some evil fucking fascist apartheid shit.

I was visiting South Africa earlier this month and in preparation for the trip, and while there, started to fill in some of my many gaps about my knowledge of apartheid. One underlying narrative, to grossly simplify a long and horrible chunk of history I know entirely too little about, was the use of discrimination against blacks to unify the support of whites, uniting Afrikaners and those of British descent, rich and poor alike, in a mutual pact of racism. It's a familiar pattern: convince people they're not at the bottom by dragging others beneath them.

So when Trump shows up talking to an audience of white people about how he wants to institute formally continue a nationwide discriminatory police state, it seems awfully familiar, because it's abundantly clear he's not talking to black voters, he's talking to whites, once again using discrimination to send a message of "support me, because then you'll be better than those people over there." We know exactly what that argument leads to.

We never learn a goddamn thing.
posted by zachlipton at 6:40 PM on September 21, 2016 [22 favorites]

Just got out of the Tim Kaine event in San Francisco (one of five today, apparently). It was short but good, optimistic. He talked about why millennials should vote for Hillary, about how he's had the support of strong women throughout his career and is getting to be in the support role himself for the first time, contrasted his and Hillary's book title with Trump's (Stronger Together vs. Crippled America - I think he had mentioned disability rights just before in case you didn't catch that extra bit of WTF). Mentioned that Nevada was likely to be very close. (I actually just signed up to bus there and canvass/register voters next weekend; it'll be my first time volunteering. Eek.)
posted by sunset in snow country at 6:41 PM on September 21, 2016 [26 favorites]

We never learn a goddamn thing.

We do learn, but we learn over decades and then we forget.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:42 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Deseret News: Donald Trump Jr. defends comparing refugees to candy that 'would kill you' He says his father is running on 'values held dear' by Utahns

One day earlier, the LDS Church Released a video encouraging people to get involved helping refugees.

I'm not sure these are the values are held by Utahns after all.
posted by mmoncur at 6:43 PM on September 21, 2016 [20 favorites]

Canada's open approach to immigration and its willingness to welcome tens of thousands of Syrian refugees is an "enlightened" move that will benefit the country's business sector, Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates says.

That's because the multicoloured oblate spheroid candy of choice in Canada is called Smarties not Skittles.
posted by srboisvert at 6:57 PM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

It may be worth noting that Amazon Prime comes with six months of free digital Washington Post membership for those getting sick of going incognito for WP articles.
posted by Talez at 6:57 PM on September 21, 2016 [14 favorites]

WashPost: It looks like Rudy Giuliani convinced Donald Trump that stop-and-frisk actually works

"We did it in New York," Trump tells a member of the audience, adding that "it worked incredibly well and you have to be proactive and, you know, you really help people sort of change their mind."

But it didn't work really well -- or, at least, there's no real correlation between the use of stop-and-frisk and New York's reduction in crime.

posted by peeedro at 6:57 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

He (Trump Jr.) also referred to the Trump rallies as "almost a rock concert for people who are fed up."

They're almost a rock concert for people who actually hate rock music, too. Jeebus H. Creebus, the warmup music they play at these things is fucking boring. They seem to have ONE CD, that they just play on repeat two or three times before the rally starts. The Stones' "You Can't Always Get What You Want," some other slow Stones song, Whichever Elton John's worst ballad is, and Lee Greenwood's "Proud to be an American" (THEN WHY DO YOU PLAY SO MUCH BRITISH MUSIC, HAH?)

I mean, real talk, it's probably actually a good thing that they play lame, boring old rock music than stuff that would actually get these people all riled up. But goddamn, these Trump rallies are more boring than watching a little-league baseball game where you don't know any of the kids.
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:03 PM on September 21, 2016 [11 favorites]

Well, WaPo has been doing a good job, but holy shit did they fuck up a headline tonight about Clinton speaking to a union group.

Clinton asks why she isn’t beating Trump by 50 points

Which makes it sounds likes she's whining or complaining or clueless about her lead. In reality, here's what she said:

"The former secretary of state ticked off her pro-union positions, including investing in infrastructure, raising the minimum wage and supporting collective bargaining.

“Having said all this, ‘Why aren’t I 50 points ahead?’ you might ask?” Clinton said. “Well, the choice for working families has never been clearer. I need your help to get Donald Trump’s record out to everybody. Nobody should be fooled.”
posted by chris24 at 7:04 PM on September 21, 2016 [15 favorites]

It may be worth noting that Amazon Prime comes with six months of free digital Washington Post membership for those getting sick of going incognito for WP articles.

Umm, where, how do I find that. Looking on my Prime page I'm not seeing it.
posted by chris24 at 7:11 PM on September 21, 2016

Right here.
posted by Talez at 7:13 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

chris24: Well, WaPo has been doing a good job, but holy shit did they fuck up a headline tonight about Clinton speaking to a union group.

Christ, what assholes.
posted by Superplin at 7:17 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

We have our own overtly anti-Black, racist Hitler, half the country wants him to goose step the US into a new tomorrow and someone was just shot to death at an anti-police-violence protest in NC.

Why can't we root out this damned racism?

This time, if we're not all silenced or arrested in a year or so, everyone who is not a filthy Nazi has to work together and find a way rip up the roots of it. Not like after Reconstruction, not like after the Civil Rights movement, no short term victories followed by racist rollbacks but a real solid de-Nazification - never again, none of this ever again.
posted by Frowner at 7:19 PM on September 21, 2016 [27 favorites]

Doesn't need much editing. "World Asks Why Clinton Isn't Beating Trump By 50 Points". Maybe they'll have it fixed by morning.
posted by uosuaq at 7:19 PM on September 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

FOX didn't air the Hannity/Trump townhall because of the Charlotte protests. Supposedly will air tomorrow night.
posted by chris24 at 7:20 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

I half expect Trump's next great idea for black outreach to be quarantining the welfare checks of black people and just writing checks to the landlord and utilities directly.
posted by Talez at 7:20 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

Minus a processing fee, paid to Trump's companies.
posted by mochapickle at 7:21 PM on September 21, 2016 [12 favorites]

"Every black person will have a USA Prime account which allows them to receive a range of Trump branded products for free!"
posted by Talez at 7:21 PM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

I just need "armbands for Muslims" for my Trump Bingo card to be a winner. C'mon, Donny.
posted by uosuaq at 7:22 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

Talez: "It may be worth noting that Amazon Prime comes with six months of free digital Washington Post membership for those getting sick of going incognito for WP articles."

You can also get free access to the WP if you subscribe to any of a whole bunch of local papers around the country. I get it via my subscription to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.
posted by octothorpe at 7:26 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

It may be worth noting that Amazon Prime comes with six months of free digital Washington Post membership for those getting sick of going incognito for WP articles.

Set a reminder to cancel it, they'll start billing 4$/mo after the 6 month trial.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:31 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Here we are now. Entertain us.

(So I guess my generation literally asked for this.

More Than This.

Live Through This.

How soon is now?
posted by waitangi at 7:31 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's The End of the World As We Know It
posted by Mchelly at 7:50 PM on September 21, 2016 [9 favorites]

I blame myself for this musical derail.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:52 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

" and Lee Greenwood's "Proud to be an American" "

(4/4) And I'm proud to be an Americaaaaan for at least I know I'm free, and I won't forget the men who died to give that right to me .. and I glad-ly STAND UP (2/4 break for no reason) BREAK (4/4) next to you! and defend her still today ...
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:52 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's The End of the World As We Know It

And I feel fine.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:56 PM on September 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's gotta be The Future by Leonard Cohen
posted by ian1977 at 8:05 PM on September 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

THIS IS NOT FINE!
posted by Talez at 8:05 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Seguing back to the sign topic, I live in the red part of Washington, and one baffling thing I'm seeing is some businesses with signs up for Trump/Pence side by side with signs for Johnson/Weld. I was trying to figure out if the people with those signs are simply so ignorant that they don't realize those people are running against each other, or if it's just a generic 'fuck liberals' gesture.
posted by mordax at 8:11 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

ian1977: "It's gotta be The Future by Leonard Cohen"

He's got a new song that might be more appropriate.
posted by octothorpe at 8:16 PM on September 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

'First we take Manhattan'
posted by clavdivs at 8:28 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

'And a white man dancing.'

Trump isn't booked for Ellen is he?
posted by ian1977 at 8:45 PM on September 21, 2016

"What we don't want to do is take away from the narrative," Trump Jr. said, calling it "foolish" to open up thousands of pages of tax returns to "300 million independent auditors."

The first time Trump Jr. has told the truth. Look how much fraud one single reporter has uncovered just looking at a few dozen pages of his charity returns. Can you imagine the amount of fraud there must be in his business returns?

I think I mentioned before that the letter from his lawyers he has shown indicates that he is currently being audited all the way back to 2009. This is highly unusual as the IRS normally can only look back three years, but can look back six years if they find evidence of substantial errors or fraud.

His tax return has to be a minefield of tax evasion. He will never release it because it would totally blow him out of the water. The press needs to beat him up on this coverup relentlessly. No one should be a candidate for President who will not release their tax returns.
posted by JackFlash at 8:46 PM on September 21, 2016 [52 favorites]

OK. Let me just say, the strategy of shutting up and letting Donnie Dorko ramble on unchallenged is SUPREMELY BAD. The dude is a reality TV star, who is exemplary when flying off the cuff, unscripted.

Pick a position, and then go at him hard to test how well he really understands it. Follow up with an actual understanding of the issue, and pity him when it's obvs he's shitting bull everywhere. Deftly, self-depreciatingly sideline the moderator trying to protect The Donald from himself. Look on with reserved sympathy as Herr Drumpf claims the Titanic was Obama's fault, and then pointedly re-engage with the moderator while The Donald is trying to figure out talking points without his index cards.

Passive is a losing strategy, here. Attack him until he comes to loom over her at her own podium, wagging his finger, and she politely ignores him, with pity. She's done this once before with Lazio, and it won her a senate seat.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:12 PM on September 21, 2016 [28 favorites]

I strongly suspect that one or more potential leakers has access to his tax returns and will leak it at a critical period. Yes it would be dirty tricks but ultimately it should be unnecessary because any candidate for President should understand that transparency is critical.

Right now Trump seems to be operating on the assumption that people actually appreciate that he's been gaming the system.
posted by vuron at 9:15 PM on September 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

To add to the musical derail from another Gen Xer (although not a member of the Oregon Trail generation):

"White Americans, what
Nothing better to do
Why don't you kick yourself out
You're an immigrant too

Who's using who
What should we do?
Well, you can't be a pimp
And a prostitute too"
posted by supercrayon at 9:21 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fahrenthold at WaPo: How a Univision anchor found the missing $10,000 portrait that Trump bought with his charity’s money
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:42 PM on September 21, 2016 [21 favorites]

Enrique Acevedo: Hey @Fahrenthold just checked and the portrait is still hanging at the Champions Lounge. How much did you say it cost the Trump Foundation?
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:45 PM on September 21, 2016 [14 favorites]

The schadenfreude of it being a reporter from the spanish speaking media, with the help of the possibly spanish speaking laborers who clean Trumps hotels, that confirmed the that the painting was still there.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:51 PM on September 21, 2016 [45 favorites]

Ha, when I saw the first grainy photo I saw the 265 plaque next to it and assumed it was some sort of gallery label. Enrique reveals that it says "Maximum occupancy 265" for the bar it is in.
posted by JackFlash at 9:55 PM on September 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

jamaro, I think it was working for me. Did a pop-up ask you to log in with your Amazon account? I ended up not going through with it when it got to the "confirm your credit card which will be charged after six months" stage because I'm terrible at canceling things.
posted by threeturtles at 10:21 PM on September 21, 2016

Enrique Acevedo: Hey @Fahrenthold just checked and the portrait is still hanging at the Champions Lounge. How much did you say it cost the Trump Foundation?

It would be really great and utterly symbolic if Trump getting caught fraudulently buying a picture of himself is what set his downfall in motion.

Universe please make this happen.

I want the history of this election to talk about this symbol of his ego being the beginning of the end for him.
posted by Jalliah at 10:25 PM on September 21, 2016 [50 favorites]

The Dems need to start hammering that message. "Trump spent $30000 of charity money on pictures of himself and hung them up in his own businesses. WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU THINK HE CARES ABOUT YOU?"
posted by mmoncur at 10:30 PM on September 21, 2016 [13 favorites]

I have a question.

Is the president protected somehow from things like getting charged with tax fraud? I understand that there is probably political reasons why it wouldn't happen. Just wondering if there are actually technical legal reasons.
Could the IRS charge him if he did get in? Would the president have the power to quash it, like fire them?
posted by Jalliah at 10:35 PM on September 21, 2016

That's maybe a motivation, but it's not like any consequences for anything fall on him right now, and I'd be shocked if any do if he loses. He's exactly the kind of white collar criminal the system is designed to protect.
posted by Artw at 11:11 PM on September 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Is the president protected somehow from things like getting charged with tax fraud?

You can read this Bloomberg article about how Nixon ended up owing nearly half a million dollars in back taxes while in office.

Nixon refused to release his taxes but an IRS employee leaked a summary showing suspiciously low taxes paid. As a result of political pressure he was forced to release all his returns saying “People have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I am not a crook.”

Well, as it turns out he was indeed a crook. There were some questionable deductions on the returns including illegal backdating of documents.

There is nothing requiring the President to release his tax returns except political pressure and the IRS is unlikely to get directly involved in a political battle between branches of government. If it weren't for the wounds of the Watergate scandal weakening his political power, it is unlikely that Nixon's tax issue would have ever seen the light of day.
posted by JackFlash at 11:16 PM on September 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

Hi @jack. How are things? I was wondering why @twitter is so effective at preventing the use of NBC's Olympics footage but not this

--@BCAppelbaum (link contains disgustingly anti-Semitic imagery)
posted by zachlipton at 12:05 AM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

I hope the press hits hard now on the charity fraud angle, pressuring on the tax returns as its obvious Trump has serious conflicts of interest.

I mean we all know, but now there is evidence of one case and I doubt it's the only one.
posted by mrzarquon at 12:20 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Janell Ross writes eloquently at The Post on What happened after Don King used the n-word while stumping for Trump:

Outrage, possible political damage estimates and umbrage, oh the umbrage, are about as close as many reporters come to covering the real role of race in American life.

That's race coverage around the edges — racial-epithet scandal to possible ethnic- or religious-group uproar. And, it's this coverage that overtakes or actually stands in where a more thoughtful, substantive examination of the undeniable role that race continues to play in housing, lending, employment, health care, education and every other major feature of American life should probably be.
...
Here is the thing.

King's comments Wednesday will simply put him in the center of today's moment of daily racist outrage. Then we'll probably move on, even though two black men have been shot and killed by police officers in two different cities in a week. To borrow a favorite Trump phrase, that's sad. It is really, in 2016, quite sad.

posted by zachlipton at 12:25 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Would the president have the power to quash it, like fire them?

AFAIK, there is no reason Trump couldn't pardon himself for future indictments and possible crimes, using the sucessful precendent of Gerald Ford's pardon of Nixon for potential crimes, despite the obvious conflict of interest.
posted by msalt at 12:30 AM on September 22, 2016

Is the president protected somehow from things like getting charged with tax fraud?

Oh, not just the president, sweetie.
Very rich people in general (as well as moderately wealthy but well-connected people like Donald Trump) are protected from getting charged with tax fraud and most other non-violent crimes.
posted by sour cream at 1:06 AM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

And Clinton +2 head to head, +3 four ways in the new Wisconsin poll. 3 in Wisconsin is not good.

Another WI poll came out last night. And Emerson is landline only and typically has a strong R lean. So this should make people feel better about Wisconsin. No need to curse the Cheese State quite yet.

#NEW #Wisconsin @EmersonPolling:

Clinton 45% (+7)
Trump 38%
Johnson 11%
Stein 2%
posted by chris24 at 3:21 AM on September 22, 2016 [11 favorites]

Also, a new Colorado poll came out last night, a state that hasn't been polled much recently and where there were worries that Trump was gaining.

Clinton 44% (+9)
Trump 35%

In the Senate race:

Bennett (D) 45% (+13)
Glenn (R) 32%
posted by chris24 at 3:34 AM on September 22, 2016 [10 favorites]

And last morning poll post, a NBC/WSJ/Telemundo poll of Latino voters came out.

Clinton 71%
Trump 18%

For reference, Romney won 27% of the Latino vote.

And hard to imagine these numbers improving given this:

"The poll, which surveyed 300 Latino voters, also found that 78 percent viewed Trump negatively, with 68 percent saying their view was "very negative."
posted by chris24 at 3:39 AM on September 22, 2016 [28 favorites]

thank you chris24

*climbs back down from ledge*
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:42 AM on September 22, 2016 [21 favorites]

Ah sorry, one more poll-related post:

WSJ: General Election Will Be a Vote For or Against Clinton - Most Trump backers say they are voting against Clinton, rather than for Trump

"Voters who back Mrs. Clinton say their vote is more about supporting her than opposing Mr. Trump, by a margin of 50% to 44%. Voters who back Mr. Trump also say their vote is also more about Mrs. Clinton. They oppose her more than they support the GOP nominee – 51% to 41%."
posted by chris24 at 3:50 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh shit I lied. Another poll post. A new NYT poll of North Carolina just came out.

2 way
Clinton 45%
Trump 43%

4 Way
Clinton 41%
Trump 41%

Even better, R governor McCrory trails D Cooper by 8, 50-42.

And D Senate challenger Ross leads R Burr by 4, 46-42. This is her largest poll lead ever.

This is one of the new NYT/Upshot polls based on voting records where you can really dive into the data if you're so inclined.
posted by chris24 at 4:02 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

> And D Senate challenger Ross leads R Burr by 4, 46-42.

Does Ross have beliefs?
posted by farlukar at 4:17 AM on September 22, 2016 [16 favorites]

Trump tells @foxandfriends that he was only referring to Chicago for a stop-and-frisk expansion:

Trump: "They will stop, they will frisk, and they will take the gun away and they won't have anything to shoot with."

Holy shit. This is just fucking insane. Police are just going to confiscate random weapons now?
posted by Talez at 4:42 AM on September 22, 2016 [15 favorites]

I don't know why I said random weapons. Stop and frisk is going to be applied almost exclusively to minorities.
posted by Talez at 4:43 AM on September 22, 2016 [14 favorites]

So... now can I tell my Republican friends that Trump wants to take their guns away?
posted by mmoncur at 4:50 AM on September 22, 2016 [81 favorites]

I'd like to know what the NRA thinks of the stop-frisk-confiscate plan!
posted by SillyShepherd at 4:51 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump: "They will stop, they will frisk, and they will take the gun away and they won't have anything to shoot with."

Imagine if the cops tried to do this to "Second Amendment people." Those people have a Constitutional right to own those guns. (I don't necessarily think anyone should, but that's the reality.) I guess that amendment doesn't apply to (presumably) black people.

Good Christ, where are the Constitution worshippers when we need them?
posted by GrammarMoses at 4:52 AM on September 22, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trump literally wants to take your guns away.

It's not the first time that he's argued for taking people's guns away.
Just the other day he wanted to disarm Hillary Clinton's bodyguards.
posted by sour cream at 4:56 AM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump literally wants to take your guns away.

No, no... not your guns. Trump's talking about their guns. You know, those "what have you got to lose" people who live in the inner-city.
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:59 AM on September 22, 2016 [15 favorites]

Conservative columnist/blogger Glenn Reynolds suspended from Twitter for urging people to run over protesters in North Carolina.
posted by octothorpe at 5:07 AM on September 22, 2016 [39 favorites]

Good lord. He's a law professor.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:12 AM on September 22, 2016 [12 favorites]

Sounds like a drunken tweet situation. He should get an Intoxalock for his keyboard
posted by lampshade at 5:19 AM on September 22, 2016

NYT : The Folly of the Protest Vote: There is a simple truth here: Either Clinton or Trump will be the next president of the United States. Not Jill Stein. Not Gary Johnson. Clinton or Trump.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:25 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Guardian: A Trump campaign chair in Ohio says there was 'no racism' before Obama

WHAT
THE
FUCK
KATHY
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:34 AM on September 22, 2016 [48 favorites]

It's pretty impressive how Obama managed to create the effects of long-term structural racism in Ohio!
posted by ChuraChura at 5:35 AM on September 22, 2016 [19 favorites]

“If you’re black and you haven’t been successful in the last 50 years, it’s your own fault. You’ve had every opportunity, it was given to you,” she said.

“You’ve had the same schools everybody else went to. You had benefits to go to college that white kids didn’t have. You had all the advantages and didn’t take advantage of it. It’s not our fault, certainly.”

Miller also called the Black Lives Matter movement “a stupid waste of time” and said lower voter turnout among African Americans could be related to “the way they’re raised”.

Her comments risk further alienating African American voters from Trump in the crucial swing state. No Republican president has reached the White House without also winning Ohio, a state in which 12.7% of the population is black."

Sadly, this sentiment is pretty common among Republicans. There was no problem with racism until blacks started talking about it.
posted by chris24 at 5:39 AM on September 22, 2016 [56 favorites]

I don't get why some of you think the "in lieu of payment" angle is too complicated.

People understand the term "slush fund" well enough to at least react negatively to it. Trump knows this -- he's been calling the Clinton Foundation a slush fund for weeks, despite the conspicuous lack of evidence that it's any such thing.

Of course it's projection and self-insulation. I wonder if it'd be worth the Clinton camp's time to point out that Trump is following the Karl Rove playbook of attacking the opponent's strengths and accusing Clinton of Trump's own weaknesses?
posted by Gelatin at 5:39 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

JFC Kathy
posted by strange chain at 5:40 AM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

God, that Kathy Miller is vile. And a great example of how it has become legitimate to say the grossest things in public, not because of Trump, but because of the succesfull long term right-wing campaign against decency (what they call "political correctness")
posted by mumimor at 5:49 AM on September 22, 2016 [27 favorites]

Fuck getting suspended from Twitter, that should be a fire-able offense.
posted by like_neon at 6:00 AM on September 22, 2016 [20 favorites]

You know, earlier on, there was a part of me that was vaguely glad that these extremely icky... things... were coming out of the woodwork, into the open, not hiding any more or dogwhistling in the walls.

I think that part of me was glad because she was making the assumption that at one point, they would stop pouring out of those holes, that at one point there would be no more left inside.

Bad assumption, part of me. And what have we learned about making unwarranted assumptions today?
posted by seyirci at 6:00 AM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

Senators want legislation to force Trump to release taxes

It probably won't go anywhere, but every bit of pressure helps.
posted by strange chain at 6:05 AM on September 22, 2016 [11 favorites]

Just listened to the new Reply All on my way in this morning and the Yes Yes No is about Pepe and honestly I thought they did a pretty poor job of it. But I might just be overly jumpy these days. (I am definitely overly jumpy these days.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:05 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

> When it was pointed out that some people might find her remarks offensive, Miller replied: “I don’t care, it’s the truth.”

Hey reporter guy the problem isn't that the remarks are offensive it's that they are demonstrably false.
posted by Tevin at 6:12 AM on September 22, 2016 [44 favorites]

OK. Let me just say, the strategy of shutting up and letting Donnie Dorko ramble on unchallenged is SUPREMELY BAD. The dude is a reality TV star, who is exemplary when flying off the cuff, unscripted.

I think you must have a pretty inaccurate idea of how reality tv works. It's not like live theater, where there's a performance and it's all on point and coherent. Reality tv is a bunch of hours of filming and babbling and misc bullshit following a rough through-line that the writers have set out for the performers. Then once it's done the whole mess is cut down into something resembling coherence and to force a sense of a plotline.

They throw a shit-ton of spaghetti at the wall, then zoom in on a tiny part and tell you it's a Rothko.

I'm sort of confused as to how anyone who has seen Trump talk or be interviewed can think he is good off the cuff. He's a rambling mess who can barely stay on topic. Like this or this. He's a reality tv star because that's a venue where they could cut his bloviating down into something that looked like a sensible person.
posted by phearlez at 6:13 AM on September 22, 2016 [38 favorites]

No Republican president has reached the White House without also winning Ohio, a state in which 12.7% of the population is black.

I hope Ohio Mefis are inspired to help register folks to vote!
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:15 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Donald Trump’s Tax Cuts Would Cause Deficit To Explode, Report Says

TL;DR: A non-partisan think tank found that Trump's plan would increase the deficit by $10 trillion over the next 10 years while Clinton's would by $200 billion. So basically Clinton's is a rounding error and Trump's increases the national debt 50%.
posted by chris24 at 6:15 AM on September 22, 2016 [17 favorites]

Senators want legislation to force Trump to release taxes

I am incredibly against this, regardless of how it would help keep that alleged person out of office. Congress shouldn't be able to legislate new requirements for candidates just because one alleged person is being an asshat.
posted by Etrigan at 6:16 AM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

Sounds like a drunken tweet situation. He should get an Intoxalock for his keyboard

You get away from my MetaFilter right now!
posted by rokusan at 6:17 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

> I hope Ohio Mefis are inspired to help register folks to vote!

My organizer is sending me more info today to help connect people who live out of state to volunteer opportunities in Ohio. If you want to come in and help out (also catch some wonderful autumnal foliage and top notch apple cider) I can try and point you in the right direction.
posted by Tevin at 6:18 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm delighted that the WaPo is going after Trump's dodgy finances. I'm looking forward to the questions from journalists.

"What are you hiding Mr. Trump?"

"If you have nothing to hide, then you should have nothing to fear. When do we see them?"

"Does it trouble you that people see Hillary as more honest than you?"

And so on. A relentless barrage to reveal just what he's been hiding. Present it to challenge his honesty, and to make him look like the cheap grifter he is.

Get inside his OODA loop.

He has no ability to respond to a sustained attack on a real weakness. And tax evasion is only a part of his weakness. Is there any evidence the Tottering Trump Evidence is built on anything other than a tower of lies, debt and grift?

Attack him on the money. It's not really there.
posted by Combat Wombat at 6:21 AM on September 22, 2016 [15 favorites]

"Today, Whedon is launching Save the Day"

I know this isn't what that initiative is about, but I was always kind of bemused by the fact that elections are not holidays in the US. Isn't that kind of discriminatory against people who don't have cushty jobs that allow them to take time off in the middle of the week? I mean wage earners or any sort of retail worker.

As a fun fact I will ad that in my former country elections are always on a Sunday and your employer has to accommodate your civic participation without any sort of compensation loss. And it is illegal to buy alcohol the day before elections and on elections day, I gather because they want you to have your wits about you when you vote, but it kind of created the unintended tradition of people getting WASTED the Friday before elections to make up for the fact that they won't be able to buy alcohol for 2 days.
posted by Tarumba at 6:24 AM on September 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

A relentless barrage

I would not be expecting a sudden outbreak of relentlessness, that would be a bit much like working for their stories. Look! Hillary is over there! Mention her emails and you'll get done clicks, job done!
posted by Artw at 6:25 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

You know, Donald Trump has a pretty good defense when it comes to his portrait in Mar-De-Lago. In no way did that ugly thing enhance his business. He was performing an act of charity by hiding it from most of the world.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:27 AM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

Election day not being a holiday is the reason why a lot of voter enfranchisement efforts center around early voting or no-reason absentee voting (my state does not have either, but some states have one or other or both). In most places polls are open from very early in the morning to pretty late in the evening. I think it's 7AM -9PM here, but for sure there have been some years that even for me it's been kind of a pain to get there and do it while juggling taking my kid where he needs to go and getting me to where I need to go on time.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:31 AM on September 22, 2016 [10 favorites]

I'd like to know what the NRA thinks of the stop-frisk-confiscate plan!

I highly doubt the NRA will say or do anything. Hell, they're probably the ones who gave him the idea.

I'm going to say it again, and keep on saying it, because it's the fucking truth: the NRA is a white supremacist group with the ear of well over half of our government officials, from Senators and SCOTUS judges down to local school board members. They are horrible hypocrites and they're dangerous to anyone that disagrees with them. For instance, did you know that despite the idea of mandatory gun registration being at the top of their list of the coming "THEY'RE COMING FOR YOUR GUNS" apocalypse, the most extensive registry of gun owners was actually compiled by the NRA? Not only that, the information was obtained without permission of those who are on it, and non-gun owners such as family members are also included. Nobody outside the NRA's offices knows who is on that list, what other information they have, or how much about the families of those people is kept. Pretty fucking scary, right? Oh, but that's just the half of it. The other half is that the NRA also has an "enemies list," made up almost entirely of social justice groups. If your group advocates for PoC, women, religious minorities, domestic violence survivors, unions, teachers and childcare providers, health care experts, or just plain old peace and non-violence, guess what? You're being targeted by the NRA. And I don't choose that word lightly. The NRA, and many of the other 2A advocacy groups, have spent decades working against these groups. For all their rhetoric about how people should be buying guns for self-defense (assertions that aren't supported and are often contradicted by pretty much all non-partisan studies), they have spent a considerable amount of their energy preventing law enforcement from keeping guns away from violent domestic abusers, stalkers, and people who threaten peaceful organizations. In fact, many 2A advocates go out of their way to go after women and PoC, even those who have used guns in self-defense, with nary a peep from the NRA.

So here we have an extensive registry of both gun owners (and possibly their families), combined with an enemies list mostly made up of those who want to improve the lives of those who have been mistreated the most, many of whom are affected by gun violence. The organization that holds it has become inextricably entwined with an entire political party that is currently thriving on bigotry and violent reprisal against those very same groups of people. They're enthusiastically supporting the man who has become the avatar of all of this, and who has the potential to shape the country's executive and judicial power for decades. I don't think the NRA would hesitate for even a millisecond if a Trump Administration asked for a little look-see to help them with his national stop-and-frisk plan. I think they'd be overjoyed at the chance, honestly, because that's just how powerful and evil they are.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:32 AM on September 22, 2016 [115 favorites]

Senators want legislation to force Trump to release taxes

I am incredibly against this, regardless of how it would help keep that alleged person out of office. Congress shouldn't be able to legislate new requirements for candidates just because one alleged person is being an asshat.
posted by Etrigan

It's grandstanding.

It amounts to a test of legitimacy for presidential candidates. Any legislative attempt to alter that is going to end fast when all eight Supremes ask "Which paragraph of the constitution are you rewriting here?"

Legitimacy to the presidency is clearly and (somewhat ambiguously but we've kinda fixed that now) defined in the constitution. If you want to add more tests, the Supreme Court is going to need you to go and get a shiny new amendment. This would be an 8-0 decision.
posted by Combat Wombat at 6:32 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

You know, everyone keeps telling me not to worry so much, that it'll be fine. Even if Trump wins, it'll be fine!

I have said this before and I will say it again. Progressives are usually all against American exceptionalism, but when it comes to faith in "checks and balances", "democracy", etc. they can be massively blind.

People in Soviet Russia, Yugoslavia, any empire in history thought their country was stable and impossible to destroy. People are fooling themselves if they think dictatorship, genocide, etc. are impossible in this country. They are for sure less likely because there are systems in place, but those systems are by no means perfect, and complacency is the first step towards failure.

I mean, we already torture and illegally imprison foreigners, what makes you think it won't escalate to immigrants and eventually citizens?
posted by Tarumba at 6:37 AM on September 22, 2016 [28 favorites]

(I am definitely overly jumpy these days.)

I wonder if everybody is. Maybe it's just confirmation bias, maybe it's other local factors, but lately it has seemed to me that the ability of people around me to contain outbursts of strong negative emotions has been wearing thin. As if the Trump campaign itself is a curse on all of us, whether we oppose him or support him, filtering every interaction we have through the lens of Trumpism/anti-Trumpism. *If* my perception is accurate, then what we have here, to speak dramatically but I think appropriately, is a thorough, coast-to-coast battle for the very soul of our nation.

For my part, I've definitely noticed a couple of things going on inside me. The first is a profounder-than-usual lack of patience for unkindness. The second, a consequence of the first, is an automatic, unconscious instinct to be kinder in general. I worry about the moment when some confrontation causes the first one to overwhelm the second one, but on the other hand, "if the tolerant are willing to tolerate intolerance, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 6:38 AM on September 22, 2016 [13 favorites]

Hillary on Between Two Ferns which was utterly fucking hilarious.
posted by Talez at 6:39 AM on September 22, 2016 [51 favorites]

I have said this before and I will say it again. Progressives are usually all against American exceptionalism, but when it comes to faith in "checks and balances", "democracy", etc. they can be massively blind.

I have to agree. One of the factors in my Nader 2000 vote was Joe Lieberman. (Okay, he was about five out of the six factors rolled up in one odious ball.) The other was an expectation that if by some miracle Shrub DID get elected, that the Democrats would use all tools available to blunt his excesses; filibusters, procedural tactics, shrieking to the press.

And we see how that went.
posted by delfin at 6:48 AM on September 22, 2016 [15 favorites]

I'm going to say it again, and keep on saying it, because it's the fucking truth: the NRA is a white supremacist group with the ear of well over half of our government officials, from Senators and SCOTUS judges down to local school board members.

And they are bought and paid for themselves, by the gun manufacturers. It's a not-at-all-coincidental parallel to the Tea Party/Trumpian populist movement -- dig back far enough and it's fairly obvious that the racists are puppets on the hands of people who stand to make money from it.
posted by Etrigan at 6:50 AM on September 22, 2016 [18 favorites]

> Hillary on Between Two Ferns which was utterly fucking hilarious.

It's my sheltered upbringing, I guess, but I'd never seen this show before. Wow, that was hysterical. Trump will wear a white power tie to the debates, of course he will.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:51 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Doesn't one of the Nordic countries... wait, I can use the google machine for this

Finland. It's Finland that publishes tax returns, available for a nominal fee. Makes sense to me and I bet we'd see a lot more pressure to actually address income inequality and wealth hoarding if we could see how much money the richest people make off our labor and how little money they contribute toward the common good.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:54 AM on September 22, 2016 [14 favorites]

Good lord. He's a law professor.

He's a life tenured member of the conservative commentariat who happens to still have a legacy posting at Tennessee Law School. He hasn't published actual legal scholarship since 1998, rather his byline is a grabbag of Tea Party memes in book form. Even his legal scholarship is mostly advocating 2nd Amendment absolutism.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:01 AM on September 22, 2016 [15 favorites]

Conservative columnist/blogger Glenn Reynolds suspended from Twitter for urging people to run over protesters in North Carolina.

His defense (and that of Nick Gillespie at Reason) is laughably stupid: it was due to the character limit of Twitter (he used 18 out of 140 characters), he meant that they should keep driving (he actually advocated hitting them), this is a violation of free speech (Twitter is a privately-owned and operated company), and anyway the protesters deserved it (which is a violation of free speech). It's no great loss, IMO. He's a bigoted moron who's married to an MRA zealot who supports violence against feminists, I believe the world will continue to spin.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:04 AM on September 22, 2016 [14 favorites]

Very rich people in general (as well as moderately wealthy but well-connected people like Donald Trump) are protected from getting charged with tax fraud and most other non-violent crimes.

In general, with some exceptions: Former Vice President Spiro Agnew
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:04 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

NYT : The Folly of the Protest Vote:

The problem with approaches like this is that protest votes (like most votes) already aren't instrumental attempts to get something other thing; they're performative and are their own reward. Voting in general is about standing up and saying "I am like this" or "I am one of these people," and some voters for now don't want to stand up with Clinton because of what they think that says about them. I get that, and it's not an abnormally crazy way to vote.

So anyway rather than pointing at the consequences, I favor just pointing out the awful things that voting for Johnson or Stein says about you. Johnson is easier; if you're voting for Johnson you're standing up and saying to the world that you think grocery stores should be allowed to be whites-only; you're standing up and saying Social Security should be abolished; you're standing up and saying that it should be legal for your boss to fire you because you won't have sex with him. Stein doesn't have the same kind of utterly repellent positions as Johnson and the LPUSA, but a vote for her is still you standing up and saying you're with the racist UKIP; you're with the anti-vaxxers and corporate homeopathic scams,; you don't care about integrity (after Stein tried to erase her support for UKIP) and you don't even care about basic competence after her spectacular fuckup where she accidentally flew to Cincinnati instead of Columbus.

Or for white boys: Do you really want Stein to be President? Really? Or do you realistically want Clinton to be President but you're hoping that other people -- like women and brown people -- will do that work for you?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:07 AM on September 22, 2016 [39 favorites]

Ah, yes, Glenn Reynolds aka Instapundit, king of the warbloggers. I remember him well from my misguided adolescent libertarian days.

How my RSS feed has changed, these last fifteen years.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:07 AM on September 22, 2016 [12 favorites]

Don't think this has been posted yet - Who Should we Blame for Our Deranged Democracy? from The Nation.
posted by wittgenstein at 7:08 AM on September 22, 2016

Another swing state poll this morning from VA.

Clinton's lead has shrunk from the massive lead last month, but still pretty big despite some worries it was back to a tossup. This is likely voters.

4 way
Clinton 44% (+7)
Trump 37%

2 way
Clinton 51% (+11)
Trump 40%
posted by chris24 at 7:09 AM on September 22, 2016 [11 favorites]

(I am definitely overly jumpy these days.)

I wonder if everybody is.

I am much to my chagrin.

Yesterday I had an hour long drive. I listen to CBC radio whenever I'm in my car. Right before I left I had been reading this thread. I had nuclear on my brain and was going through many 'what if Trump nuclear' scenarios in my head. This led to me remembering young 1980s me who was terrified of nuclear war and part of dealing with my terror was coming up with possible survival scenarios. What would adult and more knowledgeable me do now I thought. How close would I be to a potential strike in the US and a whole lot of contemplating dying slowly from radiation, running north, go bags...you name it my brain was going there. Peppered between these thoughts was a whole lot of fuck you Trump thinking.

So I'm driving and thinking all this, listening to the radio, a chill musical interlude when suddenly it cuts out and 'beeeeep, beeeep, beeeep, beeeeep'

Wtf? It's emergency broadcast signal. It was likely no more then 5-10 seconds of this noise before the nice lady kicked in with 'this is a test of the emergency broadcast system....' During those seconds my first irrational thoughts were 'was holy shit he's done it already..no fuck Jalli he's not even elected yet' and 'omg the bombs they are dropping'. As well I had the lovely experience of the same sheer, hair standing on the back of the neck terror panic that I haven't experienced since I was a kid and heard the sound or these tests or the tests of the local air raid sirens.

I almost had to pull over because of the physical reaction I had.

It very quickly turned to anger about what is happening. Though now I had the added anger of thinking about how the fear that would happen with Trump in office is going to affect kids and some for the rest of their lives.
posted by Jalliah at 7:10 AM on September 22, 2016 [24 favorites]

Voting in general is about standing up and saying "I am like this" or "I am one of these people,"

No, no it isn't, and that's an incredibly counterproductive way to think about voting.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:11 AM on September 22, 2016 [22 favorites]

I mean that, empirically, that seems to be what drives voting and turnout decisions. [spock] I was not attempting to evaluate its moral implications. [/spock]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:14 AM on September 22, 2016 [18 favorites]

Voting in general is about standing up and saying "I am like this" or "I am one of these people,"

Personally, it's about "I want these things to happen to make the world better for the most people so I want these people in office."
posted by chris24 at 7:15 AM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

The problem with approaches like this is that protest votes (like most votes) already aren't instrumental attempts to get something other thing; they're performative and are their own reward. Voting in general is about standing up and saying "I am like this" or "I am one of these people," and some voters for now don't want to stand up with Clinton because of what they think that says about them. I get that, and it's not an abnormally crazy way to vote.

Um... Voting in general is done under a secret ballot - which might be why third party support traditionally collapses when people hit the polling stations.
posted by Francis at 7:16 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Jallilah, after watching The Day After as a kid, I quickly decided that "instant vaporization" was the best fate and so vowed to live in a city/near enough to a military base to have that happen, but yeah, I really resent having to think about those fears again thanks to Trump.
posted by emjaybee at 7:18 AM on September 22, 2016 [15 favorites]

Well, what's the vilest thing a Trump surrogate or supporter has said so far today . . .

Good Lord.
posted by yhbc at 7:19 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

The problem with approaches like this is that protest votes (like most votes) already aren't instrumental attempts to get something other thing; they're performative and are their own reward. Voting in general is about standing up and saying "I am like this" or "I am one of these people," and some voters for now don't want to stand up with Clinton because of what they think that says about them. I get that, and it's not an abnormally crazy way to vote.

I see weird pushback to this, but I think this is exactly how a lot of voters see themselves (especially people who vote third party), "I am like this," etc. It's not how I vote, but it's not wrong.
posted by zutalors! at 7:20 AM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think ROU_Xenophobe is giving an accurate accounting of what people often feel that voting is about. Most people don't calmly and rationally evaluate policy positions and choose the candidate who offers the platform in their own best interests. They vote the way they feel for the person they like the most and who makes them feel best.
posted by dis_integration at 7:23 AM on September 22, 2016

Personally, it's about "I want these things to happen to make the world better for the most people so I want these people in office."

I don't doubt your specific vote, but we know that this can't be the case for the American population at large; the patterns of voting and especially turnout simply don't match what would happen if votes were instrumental.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:24 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

I see weird pushback to this, but I think this is exactly how a lot of voters see themselves (especially people who vote third party), "I am like this," etc. It's not how I vote, but it's not wrong.

Fair enough. I guess my comment was more frustration with that mindset than an issue with ROU_X's comment.
posted by chris24 at 7:24 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Re: Jumpy
Yeah, me too, in a bad way. I can't help but be very short with people and am just constantly taking things in as negative a way as possible, especially when talking to people I mostly agree with. Talking to Trumpers has actually become a little easier, as I know exactly where they stand and exactly how I feel about them, but Clinton voters are occasionally a grab-bag of dumb misinformation that still doesn't want to vote for Trump, and in my experience, 'holding your nose' and voting D this year is a real popular stance to take and they would feel like they lost something if they were actually the least bit enthused about her. It's gotten easier to be in an open fight than tip-toe through the minefield of mostly agreeing. I don't like that.

I've had a similar experience to Jalliah, working under the flight path of a nearby Air Force base. Every time I hear the distinctive thunder of a jet fighter flying overhead my first thought is "Oh god, what happened now? This is it." before I forcibly remind myself that they fly training missions all the time there. I don't want to start wondering if those jet engines are going to mark the start of WW3.
posted by neonrev at 7:24 AM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

It amounts to a test of legitimacy for presidential candidates. Any legislative attempt to alter that is going to end fast when all eight Supremes ask "Which paragraph of the constitution are you rewriting here?"

I don't see why. It's not disqualifing to have your tax returns made public.

In fact, I expect it to happen after this cycle.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:26 AM on September 22, 2016

I think the worry is less about the action of making the law requiring tax returns and more about what happens if a precedent is set that congress can willy nilly make up a law to add new requirements.

Today it is tax returns, tomorrow it could be 'the candidate must have never eaten Skittles'.
posted by localhuman at 7:29 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

“You’ve had the same schools everybody else went to. You had benefits to go to college that white kids didn’t have. You had all the advantages and didn’t take advantage of it. It’s not our fault, certainly.”

Miller also called the Black Lives Matter movement “a stupid waste of time” and said lower voter turnout among African Americans could be related to “the way they’re raised”.

holy dog balls. I don't think it's statistically possible for a candidate's support to go below zero percent among a given demographic, but by God they are TRYING.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 7:29 AM on September 22, 2016 [32 favorites]

Reynolds' schtick is thinly-veiled bigotry with an even thinner get-out clause. (He loved his "Celebrate Diversity" shirt with pictures of various guns.) For this he continues to receive $164k from the taxpayers of Tennessee.

Anyway, Trump has made it clear that he's all for taking away guns on sight in open-carry states, and the NRA won't say a word because their maximalist view of 2nd Amendment applies in practice only to white people against minorities.

“You’ve had the same schools everybody else went to. You had benefits to go to college that white kids didn’t have. You had all the advantages and didn’t take advantage of it. It’s not our fault, certainly.”

Oh, fuck off. "All the advantages" didn't include the government benefits of the GI Bill, or the capacity to live in so many of the new suburbs. Like I've said here before, the white WW2 generation received a massive government handout, the foundation for broad-based and inheritable net worth and their kids (like Miller) and grandkids have come to believe they earned it all themselves. She's a fucking real estate broker: she should know the history of property ownership in her own county. And as the WaPo notes, tacit redlining still goes on among realtors.
posted by holgate at 7:30 AM on September 22, 2016 [28 favorites]

>It's grandstanding.

It amounts to a test of legitimacy for presidential candidates. Any legislative attempt to alter that is going to end fast when all eight Supremes ask "Which paragraph of the constitution are you rewriting here?"

Agree that this move is just to focus attention on the issue, and with the current state of the senate/congress it's not like anything can happen even if Reid actually wanted such legislation.

Honest question though: how do the existing FEC personal financial disclosures not also amount to a legitimacy test?
posted by strange chain at 7:31 AM on September 22, 2016

moderately wealthy but well-connected people like Donald Trump

moderately wealthy

Seeing Trump described as "moderately wealthy" made me laugh out loud while feeling like Aladdin when that snotty prince says "only your fleas will mourn you!"
posted by Tarumba at 7:34 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Well, what's the vilest thing a Trump surrogate or supporter has said so far today . . .

The day is young. Give them time to get warmed up...
posted by Surely This at 7:35 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

holy dog balls. I don't think it's statistically possible for a candidate's support to go below zero percent among a given demographic, but by God they are TRYING.

AP Headline: Was there racism between 1964 and 2008? Trump campaign manager says "No", trying to dispel "myth". [fake]
posted by Talez at 7:35 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Honest question though: how do the existing FEC personal financial disclosures not also amount to a legitimacy test?

They're so broad as to be virtually useless, and no one has tried to fight them (mostly because they are so broad as to be virtually useless).
posted by Etrigan at 7:42 AM on September 22, 2016

It seems to me that first past the post voting is very vulnerable to "spoilers" (60% of the country wants a moral candidate, 40% want someone who will be an evil bastard but THEIR evil bastard -- and the evil bastard gets elected because the good guys split the vote 30% to 30%, for instance) unless voters explicitly choose to vote strategically. ("I like good guy A better than good guy B, but B is leading in the polls, so I'll throw my support behind B to keep Evil Bastard from winning.)

I feel like the fact that our voting system only produces outcomes that reflect the majority's desires when people approach voting strategically actually implies that we have a civic duty to vote strategically. It is necessary for our democracy to function properly, so we owe it to our country to use our votes responsibly -- strategically. For this reason I get very annoyed at third party voters, though I try not to show it most of the time (especially since the only 3rd party voters I know personally are voting that way in lieu of voting Republican this year.)

It's frustrating to me that smart people seem incapable of understanding the constraints of our system.

(And yes, there are other voting systems, though my understanding of game theory is that, when there are more than two candidates, there is no perfects system. They all sometimes give perverse results, especially when some voters are beings strategic and some aren't.)
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:44 AM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

General Reynolds of the 102nd Kloaked Keyboard Kommandos is already back on Twitter.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:48 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

From Cracked.com, "NBC is Secretly Endorsing Trump for President."
posted by Orange Pamplemousse at 7:57 AM on September 22, 2016 [16 favorites]

Today it is tax returns, tomorrow it could be 'the candidate must have never eaten Skittles'

Apples and, well, candy. One is instructing the IRS to release information (that was originally public anyhow) and the other is prescribing behavior.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:57 AM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm sort of confused as to how anyone who has seen Trump talk or be interviewed can think he is good off the cuff. He's a rambling mess who can barely stay on topic.

Yes. And he's rarely called on it in interviews. And his supporters cheer every sentence fragment at his rallies. So what are the odds that a mere debate moderator will hold him to task? Or will it be left to Clinton to tread the line between admonishing his lies and promoting her policies? Let's not forget, his campaign is already busy lowering the bar.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 8:04 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

If Clinton just maintains that Between Two Ferns demeanor for the debate she'll win in a walk.
posted by theodolite at 8:04 AM on September 22, 2016 [22 favorites]

I have another polling question: what's the deal with posting "2 way" polls of states along with "4 way" polls? AFAIK all of the ballots are fixed by this point, it's not like we don't know who's on them.
posted by indubitable at 8:05 AM on September 22, 2016

From VF's BARACK OBAMA AND DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN: THE ULTIMATE EXIT INTERVIEW we learn that Obama writes angry rants all the time and throws them away.

GOODWIN: Lincoln, as you know, wrote hot letters to people. And then he’d cool down and didn’t send them. Have you ever written any drafts of speeches or hot letters?

OBAMA: I do it all the time.

GOODWIN: What do you mean you do it all the time?

OBAMA: I do it all the time. I will write a response—a full rant.

GOODWIN: No kidding? [Laughter.]

OBAMA: And then I’ll crumple it up. Every once in a while, my team here will hear me go on a rant. Generally speaking, people who know me will tell you that my public persona is not that different from my private persona. I am who I am. You sort of get what you see with me. The two exceptions are that I curse more than I should, and I find myself cursing more in this office than I had in my previous life.
_____

I would've paid good money for a book of those rants post-presidency.
posted by chris24 at 8:06 AM on September 22, 2016 [108 favorites]

One could make the argument that this state of affairs -- a republic where voters are compelled to vote for a candidate who does a worse job of representing their interests than a third-party candidate would -- is not, in fact, a functioning democracy.

Then there is no such thing as a functioning democracy... because there is no such thing as a perfect voting system.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:06 AM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

what's the deal with posting "2 way" polls of states along with "4 way" polls?

Third party candidates are often placeholders for undecideds. Typically their vote totals are much less than polled. So showing 2 way gives an indication of where that movement may go.
posted by chris24 at 8:08 AM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

I hope an attentive aid went back and scooped up all those beautiful rants for the sake of posterity because boy oh I would like nothing better to read on my deathbed when they'll be declassified 60 years from now.
posted by Tevin at 8:10 AM on September 22, 2016 [18 favorites]

(And yes, there are other voting systems, though my understanding of game theory is that, when there are more than two candidates, there is no perfects system. They all sometimes give perverse results, especially when some voters are beings strategic and some aren't.)

Mathematicians have worked on voting systems that attempt to correct for the discrepancy between strategic and honest voters, but they all have significant limitations. For example, if you attempt to make a voting system that allows everyone to vote honestly and then have the system figure out what a strategic ballot would have looked like for every honest voter, it may not actually converge to a stable solution.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:10 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

what's the deal with posting "2 way" polls of states along with "4 way" polls?

They're assuming that at least some third-party voters will "come home" to either Trump or Clinton, based on past precedent, and want to model who would switch on a forced 2-way and where they switch. This time may be different.
posted by holgate at 8:10 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

We may not see these types of reports from NBC anytime soon but the rest of the media might be catching on. ABC Good Morning America reports on Trumps 100s of millions of dollars in Russian business.
posted by TwoWordReview at 8:12 AM on September 22, 2016 [21 favorites]

It's missing the last bit, but current Guardian headline: A Trump campaign chair in Ohio says there was 'no racism' before Obama

[real, link]
posted by fragmede at 8:13 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Eliminationism of Glenn Reynolds Was Much Easier to Ignore When it Was Aimed at Foreigners

Wow, nobody could have foreseen that Reynolds would tweet something like this, given his past writings:

On the other hand, it’s also true that if democracy can’t work in Iraq, then we should probably adopt a “more rubble, less trouble” approach to other countries in the region that threaten us.

Or this, which suggested that the U.S. might have to commit genocide in the Middle East because we'd simply have no choice:

Civilized societies have found it harder, though, to beat the barbarians without killing all, or nearly all, of them. Were it really to become all-out war of the sort that Osama and his ilk want, the likely result would be genocide -- unavoidable, and provoked, perhaps, but genocide nonetheless, akin to what Rome did to Carthage, or to what Americans did to American Indians. That’s what happens when two societies can’t live together, and the weaker one won’t stop fighting -- especially when the weaker one targets the civilians and children of the stronger. This is why I think it’s important to pursue a vigorous military strategy now. Because if we don’t, the military strategy we’ll have to follow in five or ten years will be light-years beyond “vigorous.”

[...]

Reynolds has aways been bloodthirsty -- in his prime, mybe he was more eliminationist toward foreigners, but the tendency has always been there. The surprise now is that he faced even a mild consequence for his bloodlust.

posted by tonycpsu at 8:13 AM on September 22, 2016 [17 favorites]

Politico: Trump clarifies stop-and-frisk: I only meant Chicago

Gee, thanks.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:14 AM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

I would've paid good money for a book of those rants post-presidency.

Can you imagine the pay-per-view revenues from pouring a half-dozen shots into Obama, giving him a microphone, and just letting him go wild?
posted by thelonius at 8:17 AM on September 22, 2016 [31 favorites]

Trump seems to be managing tanking two countries at the same time. Win!

Donald Trump poll boost pushes Mexican peso to record lows after Hillary Clinton health scare
posted by Omon Ra at 8:19 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

How Trump Could Win the Debate:

The fact is that Trump will have to stumble badly — and probably sabotage himself — to live down to Hillary’s critique of him. She has made her campaign almost entirely about how Trump is a monstrous madman. This was an understandable calculation — she wanted to disqualify him out of the box and differentiate and isolate him from other Republicans. The cost is that she has done more than anyone to lower the standard for Trump. It’s not as though he needs to mount a convincing, detailed defense of his tax or child care plan or anything else to invalidate Clinton’s critique of him; he just needs to seem a reasonable person.

1) This overstates her characterization of him.
2) We'll see how that reasonable person thing goes.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:21 AM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

Or for white boys: Do you really want Stein to be President? Really? Or do you realistically want Clinton to be President but you're hoping that other people -- like women and brown people -- will do that work for you?

Some uplifting news from my timeline: A guy I knew from high school posted something positive about Jill Stein on his FB feed on Monday. I ignored it, considered unfriending, but didn't for some reason. His post popped up in my feed again this morning and all of his bros, about 8 of them, down to the very last one were excoriating him for being a selfish jerkoff. These are, for the most part, white or Jewish or Asian guys who grew up in L.A. and went to high school in the 80's. It gave me hope and I hope to pass that along.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:22 AM on September 22, 2016 [44 favorites]

he just needs to seem a reasonable person.

Yeah, and if I want to invalidate critiques of me as "short" I just need to seem six inches taller than I am. Just because many people find it easy to stand 6' in stocking feet doesn't mean I'll be doing that any time soon.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:24 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

NYDailyNews: Bobby Knight calls Donald Trump ‘best person ever’ at solving problems
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:25 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

NYDailyNews: Bobby Knight calls Donald Trump ‘best person ever’ at solving problems

Are they sure he didn't say "Vanilla Ice"? Also checkout the hook while the DJ revolves it.
posted by dis_integration at 8:28 AM on September 22, 2016 [18 favorites]

I've been reading these threads since the primaries and finally decided to sign up because I had a great time phonebanking last night. (I filled out a volunteer form in August saying I was willing and able, and was emailed over the weekend. The polls last week were what really got me off my rear.)

I'm a law student in a solid blue state, so I was immediately snatched up by the attorney phone bank to recruit election monitors for swing states. The Votebuilder database we were working with was composed of attorneys who had previously volunteered for the campaign or expressed interest--a very friendly crowd. The campaign really wants people in Ohio and Florida for both early voting and November 8th. Whenever I found someone interested in battleground state work, I ticked the relevant boxes so that someone from the state team would get in touch with them. (I got 7 people who gave at least a "maybe," along with some call-back-laters and a bunch of answering machines.)

I signed up for a 2-hour shift of "regular" calls to voters this afternoon, and I'll report back with how that goes!
posted by Leslie Knope at 8:29 AM on September 22, 2016 [90 favorites]

Obama is his own Anger Translator.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:29 AM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

Bobby Knight has ruined Bobby Knight for me. I know I'm late to the party on that one but christ what an asshole
posted by birdheist at 8:31 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Welcome, Leslie Knope (::swoons at username::)! And thank you for getting out there to volunteer.
posted by Superplin at 8:32 AM on September 22, 2016 [15 favorites]

Politico: Trump clarifies stop-and-frisk: I only meant Chicago

Gee, thanks.

Issues further clarification to white Chicagoland that he doesn't mean them. [fake, but he could probably pull it off, and you know that's what he means]
posted by Artw at 8:34 AM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

From chris24's link to Vanity Fair above:

Early in my presidency, I went to Cairo to make a speech to the Muslim world. And in the afternoon, after the speech, we took helicopters out to the pyramids. And they had emptied the pyramids for us, and we could just wander around for a couple hours [at] the pyramids and the Sphinx. And the pyramids are one of those things that live up to the hype. They’re elemental in ways that are hard to describe. And you’re going to these tombs and looking at the hieroglyphics and imagining the civilization that built these iconic images.

And I still remember it—because I hadn’t been president that long at that point—thinking to myself, There were a lot of people during the period when these pyramids were built who thought they were really important. And there was the equivalent of cable news and television and newspapers and Twitter and people anguishing over their relative popularity or position at any given time. And now it’s all just covered in dust and sand. And all that people know [today] are the pyramids.

Sometimes I carry with me that perspective, which tells me that my particular worries on any given day—how I’m doing in the polls or what somebody is saying about me … for good or for ill—isn’t particularly relevant. What is relevant is: What am I building that lasts?

And here in the United States, hopefully, what we’re building are not just pyramids, are not icons to one pharaoh. What we’re building is a culture and a way of living together that we can look back on and say, [This] was good, was inclusive, was kind, was innovative, was able to fulfill the dreams of as many people as possible. And that part of my temperament I think has served me well.

GODDAMMIT I'M GONNA MISS THIS GUY.

(Also, come for the deep thought with one of our great presidential historians, stay for the mental image of Sasha and Malia explaining 'thirst' to their dad.)
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:35 AM on September 22, 2016 [132 favorites]

That's leaving aside that he's running for president of the United States and not mayor of Chicago; how, as president, would he enact a stop-and-frisk policy in Chicago?

His chief of staff evolves into mayor of Chicago after two years, right?
posted by Etrigan at 8:39 AM on September 22, 2016 [14 favorites]

75 retired senior diplomats sign letter opposing Trump for president:

A group of 75 retired career Foreign Service officers, including ambassadors and senior State Department officials under Republican and Democratic presidents over nearly a half-century, has signed an open letter calling Donald Trump “entirely unqualified to serve as President and Commander-in-Chief.”

The diplomats said “none of us” will vote for Trump. While they said not all of them agreed with every decision made by Hillary Clinton, they said they all supported her candidacy.

posted by kirkaracha at 8:39 AM on September 22, 2016 [22 favorites]

Apropos of Trump's new focus on Chicago, I'm not surprised to hear him point specifically to that one city. I feel like "but, but, Chicago, something something Democratic control something something black-on-black violence" is the preferred talking point by the right-wing media machine anytime they want to pretend that it's not racism that's the problem, it's that black people are so mean to each other (cue lots of faux concern for minorities that conveniently don't propose solutions to anything, other than "let's stop talking about race").

It is depressing how frequently Chicago specifically has been brought up to me by people as proof that clearly only a Republican can fix the problems of this country because Democrats had their chance in Chicago and ...

Anyone have a detailed takedown of this shit? I'd love to read one, and have it in my back pocket. I mean, yeah, I can and have argued it in the past, but good lord am I tired of having to try to explain it. Maybe someone else has a better approach?
posted by tocts at 8:39 AM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

That's leaving aside that he's running for president of the United States and not mayor of Chicago; how, as president, would he enact a stop-and-frisk policy in Chicago? He's not the mayor, he's not the chief of police, he's not a state rep. Would he do it through some push for national legislation? Through executive order? Because then we're right back at the question of what he would do nationally, which he hasn't answered.

Let's be honest, we're at a point where if the Department of Justice promised not to prosecute a particular kind of civil rights violation, state and municipal police departments across the country would take them up on it in a matter of days. Stop and frisk, traffic checkpoints in minority neighborhoods, pooping on arrestees, whatever.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:39 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

I suspect that Tuesday elections are a relic of a rural 18th Century paradigm: Saturday, more farming, Sunday, church, then some people need Monday to travel to wherever the polls were, maybe the county seat, then vote Tuesday. Remember it was originally a system for property owners only.

Keeping this as a sacred tradition makes about as much sense as would still waiting until March to inaugurate the new President.
posted by thelonius at 8:40 AM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

I think it's sad to unfriend or contemplate too, someone over politics. If you can't let freinds work out thier postion, even if it opposes your view, well, sad because it suggests a disconnect from a friendship in the first place and that is hurtful to explore. No politics is worth a friendship. If it divides friends, I'd posit they really weren't in the first place. That's my personal experiences and no way figured into the Facebook thing, freinds have better reality with chemical friends then purly photonic ones.
Example: John Brennan, no prob here on voting 'communist', shit, who hasn't. I appreciate his honesty and service to our country.
posted by clavdivs at 8:40 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

It is depressing how frequently Chicago specifically has brought up to me by people as proof that clearly only a Republican can fix the problems of this country because Democrats had their chance in Chicago and ...

I accidentally read this piece of work a few years back, and in the pictures section in the middle, there was one of Al Capone, for no reason other than to impugn Obama's "Chicago-style politics".
posted by Etrigan at 8:44 AM on September 22, 2016

From the White House: Dear President Obama: "We Will Give Him a Family"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:47 AM on September 22, 2016 [33 favorites]

Oh man it is suddenly super dusty in here ;____;
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:52 AM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

Brendan O'Connor: How Palantir Is Taking Over New York City

A city agency, like New York’s Office of Special Enforcement, could hypothetically use Palantir’s technology for purposes that go far beyond its mandate. The agency purports to improve people’s quality of life, cracking down on building and fire code violations, for example, or identifying illegal hotels in the form of Airbnb hosts abusing the service. (Ironically, Thiel is also an investor in Airbnb.) Such investigations often lead to fines levied against property owners, and sometimes evictions.

But, as the New York Daily News and ProPublica reported earlier this year, the 1977 “nuisance abatement” law that was passed to empower the Office of Midtown Enforcement’s prosecution of sex-related businesses in Times Square has metastasized over the last three decades, amended to include everything from the employment of unlicensed security guards to selling synthetic marijuana and fake IDs. In 1995, NYPD commissioner Bill Bratton called nuisance abatement “the most powerful civil tool available” in Broken Windows policing: In the year prior, the police department had brought 214 nuisance abatement cases; in 2013, it brought 1,082—more than three quarters of them in communities where the population is 80 percent or more people of color.
[...]
A nightmare scenario of an Office of Special Enforcement inspector going rogue, stalking a colleague or creditor or lover with Palantir’s mobile technology, is certainly conceivable. But the potential for that kind of outright abuse is less disturbing than the ways in which Palantir’s tech is already being used. The city’s embrace of Palantir, outside of law enforcement, has quietly ushered in an era of civil surveillance so ubiquitous as to be invisible.

As the article notes, Palantir was co-founded by none other than Peter Thiel. Which 1) is pretty scary given his support of Trump; and 2) means this article, posted by a Gawker Media outlet, might not stay up very long.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:52 AM on September 22, 2016 [11 favorites]

come for the deep thought with one of our great presidential historians

I'm a bit meh about the whole "presidential history" thing as its own field, and you can see how Kearns Goodwin, while very good at what she does, shoves the conversation down a funnel where everything has to be compared to a previous president. Clearly, it's a unique role marked by remarkable continuity, but it's also one that has changed significantly in terms of executive power and global impact.

then some people need Monday to travel to wherever the polls were, maybe the county seat, then vote Tuesday.

And Wednesday was market day. In the older states, especially ones with relatively stable county boundaries, you could get to the county seat in a day's horse-drawn travel.
posted by holgate at 8:53 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think it's sad to unfriend or contemplate too, someone over politics.

It is sad I agree to find out that someone you thought was a friend doesn't see you as a fully human person.

Unless there was some clavdivs sort of reason for misspelling friend that I didn't understand that is related to your point somehow.
posted by winna at 8:55 AM on September 22, 2016 [27 favorites]

will you explain what that is to my folks down in South Carolina that don’t really deal with stop and frisk?

I suspect if your "folks" in South Carolina are not white, they or someone they know has dealt with a Terry Stop.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:56 AM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

His chief of staff evolves into mayor of Chicago after two years, right?

Is that a Pokemon reference?

EMARAHM (evolves into) MAYARAHM
posted by sour cream at 8:56 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

> EMARAHM (evolves into) MAYARAHM

Definitely Dark and Steel type. Starts with Feint Attack, Bite, Shift Gear and Heavy Slam.
posted by Tevin at 8:59 AM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

Definitely Dark and Steel type. Starts with Feint Attack, Bite, Shift Gear and Heavy Slam.

I understood that reference.
posted by Talez at 9:02 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Palantir was co-founded by none other than Peter Thiel.

Wait wait wait. They named an agency after the communication stones in Lord of the Rings that Sauron used to spy on Middle Earth and ultimately corrupt Sauman?

Seriously? They did that.....
posted by Twain Device at 9:05 AM on September 22, 2016 [36 favorites]

I'm back because I saw this Nate Silver tweet this morning and I didn't know what else to do or where else to go after that. But the thread isn't making me feel better or even that I'm safe among like-minded people. I don't know that ANYTHING can make me feel better and there's nowhere to go and no way for me to go there anyhow. I've actually thrown up out of nerves about this election. I feel trapped and sick and frightened. It's like I can't stand *being awake*. And there is nothing I can do. (Please don't tell me "volunteer - it will make you feel better!" because trust me, it will not make me feel better.)

How can we watch the rise of nationalism and white supremacy all over the western world, and KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING, and be powerless to stop it? How did it come to this?
posted by chonus at 9:05 AM on September 22, 2016 [13 favorites]

EMARAHM
MAYARAHM

KALI-MA SHAKTI DE!
posted by Strange Interlude at 9:08 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

TRUMP: Well, there are different levels. and you have somebody coming up who is the expert on it but basically they will—if they see, you know, they are proactive and if they see a person possibly with a gun or they think may have a gun, they will see the person and they will look and they will take the gun away

I know this isn't really worth asking, but will that apply to open carry (i.e. white) nutjobs? The Bundy clan? Nah, it's really an unspoken assumption on the part of all right wing media folks that this will only apply to PoC. But damn, it's offensive when you call us racist! Why do you libruls have to label everyone you don't agree withblarhgalkfiaojfeiojf
posted by Existential Dread at 9:10 AM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

No politics is worth a friendship.

I've ended familial relationships over politics. No relationship is worth continuously relitigating my very humanity.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:12 AM on September 22, 2016 [85 favorites]

There is something you can do -- if paying obsessive amounts of attention to the news is actually making you physically ill, then stop doing that. You are not actually powerless to help yourself in this very specific way.
posted by palomar at 9:12 AM on September 22, 2016 [10 favorites]

> I've actually thrown up out of nerves about this election. I feel trapped and sick and frightened. It's like I can't stand *being awake*.

Maybe this is my various privileges showing, but: this seems like an extreme reaction, and I wonder if you should talk to your doctor about anxiety.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:15 AM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

Chonus, not sure if this will help but:

Nate Silver says I should be nervous about the election. Here’s why I’m not too nervous.

Also:

In all 12 NBC/WSJ polls since 9/15 @HillaryClinton has drawn 46%-51% in two-way race. For @realDonaldTrump range is 38% to 43%.

...and...

important to remember, as NBC/WSJ poll shows stable Clinton edge (+6 w/3rd parties, +7 vs Trump solo): most daily headlines DO NOT MATTER
posted by chris24 at 9:16 AM on September 22, 2016 [15 favorites]

No politics is worth a friendship.

Dis. a. gree. Strenuously. When "politics" encompasses "should black people be fully recognized as human beings?" and "should we murder the innocent children of terrorist suspects?" then I really don't think anyone is unjustified in finding that a friend who answers "no" and "yes" respectively to those questions via a vote for a politician who vocally and openly advocates those positions to be, perhaps, not the person they thought they were and ending that friendship. Third-party voters are on the borderline with this because what they're essentially saying is "I don't advocate for those positions, but I'm not going to do anything to stop them from happening, so neener." It's not a great look and I would lose respect for a friend who took that position.

I mean, ending a friendship over the gold standard or the finer points of tax policy might be overdoing it, but everyone here knows that is not what we're talking about with this.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:17 AM on September 22, 2016 [58 favorites]

I think it's sad to unfriend or contemplate too, someone over politics.

At some point, "politics" stops being a neatly-compartmentalized part of your personality. No one's proposing you sort your friends by political identification and then cut ties accordingly. I have a fair number of acquaintances whose political leanings I don't share, with whom I just don't talk about political things, because what's the point? What we're talking about here are the comorbidities of right-wing political identification: proud & loud intolerance of minorities; thinly-veiled threats against liberal agitators; wistful recollection of better times when only white guys were allowed in the public sphere; repugnant statements about women. Hate like that doesn't necessarily follow from political identity alone, but goddamn, there sure are a lot more (R)s next to their names than there are (D)s.
posted by Mayor West at 9:19 AM on September 22, 2016 [12 favorites]

Mod note: Couple comments deleted. Sarcastic comments making fun of other people in the thread isn't a great way to participate.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:20 AM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

owowowowowowowoah oh dear.

I think you'll find reality's on the blink again.

We're Sorry — A Server Error Occurred

Hey! I ordered wheat toast!
 
posted by Herodios at 9:28 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Heh. From that Here's why I'm not too nervous link:

This tightening has caused some on the left to freak out a fair amount. Nonetheless, prediction markets have not had nearly as strong a reaction. And while some news outlets are exploring the prospects of a Trump administration with appropriate seriousness, many pundits are not freaking out at all.

This is causing Nate Silver to freak out a little.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:29 AM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

We're Sorry — A Server Error Occurred

I got a few of those yesterday. These threads are really taxing the system...
posted by Surely This at 9:30 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wait we aren't supposed to auto-refresh the thread every 15 seconds?

But what if we are slow in reading a fresh comment?
posted by vuron at 9:31 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

These threads are really taxing the system...

As Metafilter president I will lower taxes on the system and restore access to long threads for the working class!

Together we will Make Metafilter Great Again!
posted by Talez at 9:32 AM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

Aleppo hit by worst strikes for months as Putin, Assad ignore U.S. plea

I am surprised how little the breakdown of the ceasefire, bombing of UN aide convoys(!), and rising tension between Russia and the US is barely making a blip on the campaign
posted by rosswald at 9:32 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

(I also got a Server Error. Should I stop favoriting so many comments? Because they're all so good!)
posted by wenestvedt at 9:33 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Memphis PD investigates claims that officer choked 15-year-old girl during a traffic stop

"I said, 'why did you put your hands on her?' He said, 'well if she would not have acted like a child, I wouldn't have had to choke her,'" [the 15-year-old's aunt, Margaret] Harden said.
posted by anastasiav at 9:35 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

[from upthread]
And it is illegal to buy alcohol the day before elections and on elections day, I gather because they want you to have your wits about you when you vote.

But surely they open the bars/liquor stores as soon as the polls close, right? Because the alternative is much too horrible to contemplate.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:36 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump in Pittsburgh: "If you’re not aware, drugs are a very, very big factor in what you’re watching on television at night."

I mean... What? Da fuck?
posted by Talez at 9:37 AM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

"I said, 'why did you put your hands on her?' He said, 'well if she would not have acted like a child, I wouldn't have had to choke her,'" [the 15-year-old's aunt, Margaret] Harden said.

Why is he a free man, let alone a cop?
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:38 AM on September 22, 2016 [22 favorites]

(I also got a Server Error. Should I stop favoriting so many comments? Because they're all so good!)

Well in every thread there might be two or three bad ones, but that%^%^%^NO CARRIER
 
posted by Herodios at 9:38 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

I have ended two friendships over 'politics'. Thing is that it's not about political party identification and disagreements on policy. It's over what I consider foundational differences in how we see the world and the people in it. Racism and other isms like sexism are as far as I'm concerned core ways of seeing the world and relating to everyone else in it. It informs thinking from the ground up so to speak. It's not just about disagreeing over if taxes should be raised and what sort of social programs a government should offer.

My patience with people who hold such beliefs is wearing thinner and thinner as I grow older. A combo of generally give less fucks about what people think of me and having more years of learning and actually witnessing how it affects people and communities. There are times that I have to grit my teeth and bear dealing with people like this (like the American on my course project team who...well lets just say we've had to put a ban on talking anything political) because I have to weigh the consequences (losing my job, not passing the course I need) vs engaging. These are people and situations where I have little choice in who I have to deal with. Being friends with someone is entirely based on choice. I have little interest in engaging in a social relationship with people that hold such 'political' viewpoints no matter how great they are in other life blah blah.

Things like racism are not compartmentalized political choices that one makes in a ballot box during an election.
posted by Jalliah at 9:39 AM on September 22, 2016 [34 favorites]

Oh god he's here at a fracking conference today, isn't he? Nice to see he's spending some quality time with the energy sector getting into the weeds of energy policy....oh, wait.

He kind of put right out there who's he's talking to, didn't he? He's not talking to the people who are first-hand experiencing violence in their community, he's talking to the people sitting 30 miles down the highway in their 4BR 3BA McMansions watching the 11 O'Clock news wondering why THOSE PEOPLE keep killing each other.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:44 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Mahoning County, OH chair Kathy Miller ("no racism before Obama") resigns after "inappropriate comments."
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:48 AM on September 22, 2016 [56 favorites]

I think it's sad to unfriend or contemplate too, someone over politics.

Except when "politics" in this election literally means people voting for a candidate who is an overtly bigoted, sexist, racist. That's not politics, that's a fundamental difference in how people see the world, and I cannot be friends with someone who could espouse that kind of viewpoint, no matter how much they hate the other candidate. They can just not vote rather than actively vote to promote ignorance, violence, intolerance and fear.
posted by biscotti at 9:48 AM on September 22, 2016 [17 favorites]

I don't think it's sad to say you can't be friends with someone who is a racist, or a homophobic or transphobic person.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:51 AM on September 22, 2016 [19 favorites]

Aleppo hit by worst strikes for months as Putin, Assad ignore U.S. plea

I am surprised how little the breakdown of the ceasefire, bombing of UN aide convoys(!), and rising tension between Russia and the US is barely making a blip on the campaign

I wonder if this is one of those things where, if Trump wins the election, Russia abruptly agitates loudly for peace.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:53 AM on September 22, 2016

When your "politics" are in conflict with my humanity, human rights, civil rights, and right to live and control my own body, then, yes, I am not interested in being friends with you, but that's on you to change, not me.
posted by gingerbeer at 9:54 AM on September 22, 2016 [32 favorites]

‘Between Two Ferns’ co-creator talks about the Hillary interview

Clinton's episode of the deadpan interview series was actually shot Sept. 9, the day she was diagnosed with pneumonia, and two days before her attempts to shrug off the illness led to an embarrassing on-video stumble.

No one at the shoot could tell she was sick.

"It was very surprising," said Scott Aukerman, the co-creator of "Between Two Ferns" and the host of the IFC series "Comedy Bang Bang," which begins its final season in October. "The one clue that I had, looking back, was that both Zach and Hillary had drinks just out of frame to sip on, and they’d brought out hot water for her. I’m always kind of interested in what people drink to keep their voices up. But when we heard about the pneumonia a few days later, we couldn’t believe it. Not only was she warm and funny, we kept filming for more time than they originally allotted."

posted by Atom Eyes at 9:55 AM on September 22, 2016 [59 favorites]

Oh god he's here at a fracking conference today, isn't he?

Shouldn't someone mention that to all the coal miners who are supporting him?

(Yeah, I know, they just want unsustainable extractive industries to continue regardless. They'd cut down all the forests and burn them too.)
posted by holgate at 9:55 AM on September 22, 2016

Oh damn. I thought that "had pneumonia" label was just snark.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:00 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

I am surprised how little the breakdown of the ceasefire, bombing of UN aide convoys(!), and rising tension between Russia and the US is barely making a blip on the campaign

It's not really a good issue for either of them. Trump would bluster about being tough, but he'd have no details and no strategy and thus his advisers probably hope he doesn't even notice (which I imagine he hasn't). Clinton, by contrast, knows how ugly that stuff is and also knows the US doesn't really have any good options.

Long story short: he'd just make an ass of himself, and she knows how complicated it is.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:02 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

> Keeping this as a sacred tradition makes about as much sense as

... daylight savings time?
posted by porpoise at 10:03 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Shouldn't someone mention that to all the coal miners who are supporting him?

(Yeah, I know, they just want unsustainable extractive industries to continue regardless. They'd cut down all the forests and burn them too.)

Those coal miners would cheerfully accept jobs working in the sustainable industry of your choice given a similar number of positions at similar pay for a similar level of qualification.

Individually they just want to be able to pay their bills and get on with their lives like anybody else.

Don't tar workers with the failures and lack of vision of leadership.
 
posted by Herodios at 10:04 AM on September 22, 2016 [17 favorites]

Mod note: Couple comments deleted. As always, if you want to talk moderation please don't do that on the blue - Metatalk or the contact form or Mefimail are all options.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:08 AM on September 22, 2016

Together we will Make Metafilter Great Again!

Make AskMeFi Great Again Also
posted by zakur at 10:14 AM on September 22, 2016 [23 favorites]

Metafilter has always been gated. $5 same as in town.
posted by valkane at 10:17 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

The thing about this election, and everyone should be aware of this (we need to make that happen one friend at a time), is that this is definitely not a typical election. This is that rare election where how we as a nation vote determines the central character of how we want this country to be for years to come. Trump has made it very clear what sort of ideology governs him and what sort of administration we can expect. His three oldest children echo him in word and deed, so don't think he's just pandering to a political group for their votes. He is a bigoted, misogynistic, narcissistic, bombastic fool. This is Trump. As for the two minority candidates, neither has a chance of winning, however much they might agree with a voter's ideas. Clinton, on the other hand, recognizes that this is a legally diverse nation and that diversity should be acknowledged, even valued. In other words, we're all here and let's find a way to be fair to all of us, for the greater good. This election may be so close that we just can't afford protest votes.

I can see where friends might be lost, but this really is not a normal election and we can't treat it as such, especially in the swing states. I wish there were a way to reach your friends intellectually and emotionally, but if you can't, maybe distance yourselves for now and see what happens. I hope for the best for those of you in this position.
posted by Silverstone at 10:19 AM on September 22, 2016 [26 favorites]

> Metafilter has always been gated. $5 same as in town.

Hey now here's a thought, what if we raised the fee to $10 for membership but made Something Awful pay for it? Mods, eh?
posted by Tevin at 10:20 AM on September 22, 2016 [15 favorites]

The promise of absolute security is a trick. We can persecute group after group and give up our civil liberties one by one and close ourselves off from each other and the world at large more and more and still we will find perfect safety to be an illusion. We can build walls and build weapons and build prisons but we cannot change the fundamental fact that life is to a certain extent unpredictable, propelled by random events that we cannot foresee and can only react to. After we have killed all strangers and locked ourselves in a hidden bunker, the ceiling can still collapse on our head. We would have been better off spending all of that time outside, enjoying the mild weather. It will be winter soon enough. Some time later, the earth will be swallowed by the sun.

Accept Random Events
posted by schmod at 10:25 AM on September 22, 2016 [16 favorites]

My dream for the debate is a Fish Called Wanda-style smackdown:

Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? The nuclear triad is not a tricycle. The central message of Christianity is not "Fuck you, got mine." And Ukraine is not part of Russia. Those are all mistakes, Donald. I looked them up.

posted by kirkaracha at 10:26 AM on September 22, 2016 [34 favorites]

This is that rare election where how we as a nation vote determines the central character of how we want this country to be for years to come.

When would you say the last such election was? 1980?
posted by thelonius at 10:26 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

2004, for me.
posted by polyhedron at 10:29 AM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

Definitely 1968.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:33 AM on September 22, 2016

I really want to volunteer for Hillary in Virginia, but I am kind of an asshole, more so with subjects like politics and Trump, so I am afraid I will actually hurt her campaign if I call people and end up yelling at them for supporting the patriarchy.
posted by Tarumba at 10:35 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

@Nicole_Cliffe: I'm lukewarm about Hillary but it does brings me great pleasure to think about how she is probably SO EXCITED for these debates.

posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:36 AM on September 22, 2016

2000. Then 1968 before that.
posted by chonus at 10:37 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Is she doing some kind of performative disaffectation? "I'm lukewarm about Hillary but it does bring me great pleasure..." followed by "I mean, there is no chance I'm going to watch them..."

Is not caring about politics cool?
posted by Justinian at 10:38 AM on September 22, 2016 [13 favorites]

I've gone from slightly skeptical of the idea that a significant part of the opposition to Clinton is gendered, to deeply convinced. So much of it boils down to her being weak or controlling and bossy.

So, in that light, let me say to anyone reading MetaFilter considering voting for the orange turd blossom: I own a software business in Canada. If Trump wins, the silver lining for me is that I will poach the hell out of US-based developers and profit handsomely at your expense. They're mobile. It's pretty nice up here. So do your duty, Troglodytical Americans. Vote for Hillary and protect your herd.
posted by ~ at 10:38 AM on September 22, 2016 [16 favorites]

Trauma, you're mostly talking to Clinton supporters. The jobs volunteers do is usually about building a database of supporters for the GOTV operation. Don't be afraid. Please volunteer.
posted by chrchr at 10:38 AM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

thelonius, in my voting life, only the 1972 election prospects compare to this one. The 2000 election does approach it because it was obvious that Bush was not prepared and able to even run his own administration, let alone manage a large country. History proved that thought correct. Cheney (with help) ran it. In my history, then, this is fairly rare. I might not have agreed with the opposition in other elections, but I did not actively fear for the country if they were elected.
posted by Silverstone at 10:39 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is not caring about politics cool?

Hating (or pretending to dislike) HRC seems to be 'cool' these days, but it makes the people who say it look bad, I think - like a teenager saying "Pff I don't want to spend the summer at my BORING GRANDMA'S HOUSE but my parents are MAKING me," while secretly they're kind of excited and will treasure those summers once they're all grown up.
posted by stolyarova at 10:40 AM on September 22, 2016 [20 favorites]

let me say to anyone reading MetaFilter considering voting for the orange turd blossom

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
posted by rabbitrabbit at 10:42 AM on September 22, 2016 [10 favorites]

Which Trump Will Show Up at the Debate?

If Donald Trump is consistently inconsistent, then over the course of 90 minutes on Monday night, we’re likely to see a version of each of the personas he has tested out these past 15 months. He may start out on-message and above-the-fray, hitting his familiar notes on trade, immigration, law-and-order, and Making America Great Again. But he’s just as likely to stray from that mantra and take Clinton on, perhaps on an issue he hasn’t yet raised, or perhaps because she’ll bait him into attacking.

posted by kirkaracha at 10:45 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

There's a lot of "_{well obviously Trump is worse but} IT IS SUPER IMPORTANT THAT I TALK ABOUT HOW AWFUL HILLARY CLINTON IS" and it's starting to really grate. When one candidate is an outright fascist and all you want to talk about is how terrible the other candidate is, something's going on.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:46 AM on September 22, 2016 [90 favorites]

OMG I can't believe I am going to voluntarily talk to other people IRL this goes against my very essence.
posted by Tarumba at 10:48 AM on September 22, 2016 [40 favorites]

Being lukewarm on Clinton and caring about politics are not mutually exclusive. But I'm not excited about these debates. I'm terrified of the debates, because they're not debates and nobody judges them by the quality of the ideas expressed, but by the Commander-In-Chief Performance, the witticisms, etc. Trump basically comes into every debate starting on 3rd base with his dilligaf attitude and uncanny ability to ignore all norms of rationality and propriety and make it seem like it's everyone else who is wrong. I'm gonna need xanax to make it through this. When Clinton it will be the sigh of relief heard round the world.
posted by dis_integration at 10:49 AM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

Is not caring about politics cool?

I never watch the debates either. I know who I'm voting for, and I don't need the stress. I'm happy with the post-game analysis.
posted by schoolgirl report at 10:49 AM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

The latest from 538's totally neutral, the math is the math, we're not doing anything to get clicks, reporter Harry Enten:

The Headline: "Reports of a Hillary Clinton Rebound Have Been Greatly Exaggerated"
The Lede: Her chances of winning are up from last week
The Arithmetic in the Article: Polls that were mostly taken right after her Convention were higher than the same polls taken over the past week
Buried at the End of the Article: We build models so we can detect shifts in poll averages
The Model: Chances of winning up 7% over the past 2 days in the Nowcast, the model you explicitly said you built to detect rapid changes in polling over short time spans

Sick headline, bro!
posted by one_bean at 10:50 AM on September 22, 2016 [20 favorites]

I never watch the debates either. I know who I'm voting for, and I don't need the stress. I'm happy with the post-game analysis.

I watch the debates because I don't trust the post-game analysis.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:52 AM on September 22, 2016 [32 favorites]

I never watch the debates either. I know who I'm voting for, and I don't need the stress. I'm happy with the post-game analysis.

I never watch debates, full stop. It's way, way too stressful. I prefer reading all the doughty people who have the constitution to livetweet it.
posted by holborne at 10:53 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

> Hillary on Between Two Ferns which was utterly fucking hilarious.

I'm so happy I called that!
posted by Dashy at 10:54 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Is not caring about politics cool?

Dude, I do political science and I am not going to watch even one minute of the debates. I don't need them to decide for me and if I need to learn about them for professional reasons I can do that just as easily the next day. And Lord knows I don't need the agita.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:54 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Right, but it's the difference between not having a television (which is fine) and constantly starting all your sentences with "I don't have a television but...". If you look at the tweet progression.
posted by Justinian at 10:57 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Heh. Political debates are like crack for me. Totally planning to be up at some bizarre hour to watch them live.
posted by bardophile at 10:58 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm happy with the post-game analysis.

Not after the jaw-droppingly chaotic, bizarre, and apocalyptic RNC was recapped as "Plagiarism!!! Also: Trump re-emphasizes campaign themes"
posted by theodolite at 10:59 AM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

I'm hoping she goads him into a humiliating meltdown in front of millions of people.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:59 AM on September 22, 2016 [26 favorites]

Apparently lots of people will be watching:

Trump-Clinton debate to shatter records.
posted by emjaybee at 10:59 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

I haven't been watching the debates or conventions, only listening to them while following along in a Metafilter discussion. I do want to see Hillary pwn Trump, so I'll be tuning in, as well as following the discussion here.
posted by SillyShepherd at 11:00 AM on September 22, 2016

The debates will follow closely to what happened in 2012. The media will declare Trump the winner in the first one and then Hillary will bring it home the next two. Kaine/Pence might not be the drubbing Biden/Ryan was though.
posted by drezdn at 11:00 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

That reminds me: this weekend, buy booze.
posted by emjaybee at 11:01 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Is she doing some kind of performative disaffectation? "I'm lukewarm about Hillary but it does bring me great pleasure..." followed by "I mean, there is no chance I'm going to watch them..."

Is not caring about politics cool?

It's virtue signalling. I have a few friends who have proudly proclaimed on social media that they're "over" politics, it's too divisive, everyone's so angry, blah blah blah, and they're above it all and they're still voting but they really want everyone to know that they're taking a strong stance by not talking about politics because it's just so icky and they'd rather not be so negative all the time. Same friends have since gone on to post whiny screeds about how newcomers are ruining Seattle, there's lead in our drinking water locally, the local paper posted a tone-deaf article about the financial hardships suffered by a wealthy family... with seemingly no awareness that they're still being super negative all the time, and the extra added bonus of being smug and sanctimonious about anyone else's interest in discussing politics. (I've pointed out that all the things they're publicly complaining about are, um, pretty friggin' political in nature, but it's really hard to get people to grasp the notion that politics permeates our entire world, and pretending not to care makes them look like big dumb assholes.)
posted by palomar at 11:01 AM on September 22, 2016 [34 favorites]

I'm totally skipping class to watch the first debate. Or at least as much of it as I can handle before that man's whiny sing-song voice drives me mad.
posted by palomar at 11:03 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

I am pretty sure that they'll declare Trump the winner at least once on the basis of just bulldozing through all the questions and Clinton responses with his usual blather. Maybe all three. They're really determined to give him a free pass on being awful and nonsensical on the basis of a confident delivery that doesn't get bogged down by details or the bounds of reality.
posted by Artw at 11:03 AM on September 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

I watch the debates because I don't trust the post-game analysis.

Well, I get my analysis here, and I trust you all with my life/sanity.
posted by schoolgirl report at 11:04 AM on September 22, 2016 [20 favorites]

Pope Guilty: There's a lot of "well obviously Trump is worse but IT IS SUPER IMPORTANT THAT I TALK ABOUT HOW AWFUL HILLARY CLINTON IS"

Dude tell me about it, my social media is blowing up with videos and pictures and links to US airstrikes in Syria and pictures of bloody children and how Democratic Party supporters are wrong to call third-party voters fools when they are the ones submitting to neoliberalism and the military industrial complex, and people voting for Clinton are voting for 4 more years of a disastrous Obama administration.

The worst part is, no one really comments and no one really bites back. I'm not sure what the response is to these people.
posted by windbox at 11:04 AM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

> I watch the debates because I don't trust the post-game analysis.

Precisely this; I doubt that very many Trump supporters will follow the debates themselves, I highly suspect they'll blithely swallow whatever "analysis" their source of media will spin it.

If and only if Trump screws up massively in a very 5-second soundbite/gif-able manner will there be any downside to his support. =(

It's another trap for Clinton, but she absolutely has to do the debates - and perform well.
posted by porpoise at 11:06 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

The worst part is, no one really comments and no one really bites back. I'm not sure what the response is to these people.

Unfollowing. There's no reasoning with True Believers.
posted by holborne at 11:07 AM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm having a debate party. I'm ordering pizza and popping a shit-ton of popcorn. I've already informed people that they are welcome to bring the alcoholic libations and pharmaceuticals needed to get through the evening. We will have blankies and a dog to snuggle gently. I am still debating whether or not nerf guns will be allowed.
posted by Sophie1 at 11:07 AM on September 22, 2016 [18 favorites]

At this stage in the election, any criticism of Clinton that isn't grounded ultimately in misogyny—whether endogenous or from absorbing the dominant narratives—will come with the caveat that it is still vitally important that she win, and that it not even be close.

My current fear about these debates is that Clinton will expose Trump's total ignorance on virtually any issue, and the response from the press will be how the school marm Mrs. Clinton was mean and condescending to cool kid Donnie, and how unrelatable she was to the average smooth-brained ignoramus they presume populates the flyover states in contention.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 11:08 AM on September 22, 2016 [33 favorites]

and people voting for Clinton are voting for 4 more years of a disastrous Obama administration.

Are those people 12 years old and thus do not remember the Bush administration?
posted by Justinian at 11:08 AM on September 22, 2016 [19 favorites]

Are those people 12 years old and thus do not remember the Bush administration?

No, but they might well be 22.
posted by adamgreenfield at 11:10 AM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

Many in Virginia will be able to vote starting tomorrow Sept 23.
Virginia doesn't have early voting, but offers "absentee in person" voting where you may cast a ballot in advance if you qualify based on fairly broad criteria for example you could be going in to DC for personal reasons on Election Day.

Locations for folks in Northern Virginia:

Arlington
Alexandria
Fairfax County
Falls Chuch
posted by humanfont at 11:10 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Those coal miners would cheerfully accept jobs working in the sustainable industry of your choice given a similar number of positions at similar pay for a similar level of qualification.

I'd like to think that, but I've read the many many many pieces covering those regions, and I also read the many pieces in the UK covering extractive industries like fishing, and... it's a real stretch to extract that sentiment from the people interviewed.

As much as I didn't want to be in the mines, there is a sense of pride now that I’ve done it for a while. The people around here have always worked in the mines. My dad worked in the mines; his dad worked in the mines. It's been passed down in a way, even though I didn't want it to. It's always been a really good living, and you see all that pride they get from it. There's a lot of history behind the coal.

Pride. Continuity. History. Identity. As someone from an industrial town that has been in decline for decades, I understand that. But I also understand "I didn't want to be in the mines."

I absolutely believe that industry leaders bear the brunt of the condemnation -- compare the GM bailout, where it wasn't the line workers choosing which cars to build -- but there's still a cultural resistance to change, and a zero-sum attitude to the promotion of industries that might take their place. When Clinton said "your jobs are going away and we want to make sure you have jobs to replace them", the reaction was visceral anger, as if only the people at the coal face are allowed to acknowledge their own ambivalence towards their work.
posted by holgate at 11:11 AM on September 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

For my sanity, I'll skip watching the debates, maybe check in here and on Twitter with Daniel Dale and Dana Houle among others. I'll probably be jamming the new Neurosis and Cinemechanica records instead.
posted by Existential Dread at 11:11 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

When would you say the last such election was? 1980?
2004, for me.
Definitely 1968.

Interesting.

Interesting to me because 1968 is the year I had an actual 'uncle who wouldn't stop making racist comments at Thanksgiving dinner' Thanksgiving dinner event.

Said uncle and aunt lived in Chicagoland, and we'd all just been through the 1968 Democratic Convention, the election (but not inauguration) of Nixon, as well as poliltical assassinations, campus unrest, anti-war protests, and of course 'race riots'.

Of course, then as now, the violence of 'race riots' always happens in black neighborhoods. Nevertheless, like a lot of white people who live and work far from such neighborhoods, he felt threatened. So this guy who spent WWII typing in Hawaii is in my father*'s house talking tough about how he's gonna get a (unspecified) gun and protect his stuff from those people if they come up here and all that kind of stuff you'd get in those days.

It's Thanksgiving dinner and he won't get off it. People try to change the subject and he won't get off it. Finally my mother says "I don't think that's a very Christian thing to say" -- and all hell breaks loose. They pack up and leave and are gone in 15 minutes. I never saw him again, but I guess my parents and younger siblings visited them a few times much later in his life.

I don't want this to be a "some things never change" story; perhaps it's a "some things are gonna change painfully slowly no matter how rational and ethical you and your friends think you are" story.
 
-------------------
* Normandy, The Bulge
posted by Herodios at 11:19 AM on September 22, 2016 [25 favorites]

I'm looking forward to watching the debates with the local volunteer team. Talking weekly with them about the state of the election and the country has been greatly therapeutic and key to keeping me sane.

Also ... and this is purely speculative ... but it certainly feels like anything could happen, but particularly like Clinton could brutally destroy Trump in a way that will be pleasing to me personally, if not ever reflected in the press.

That is to say, I want to see live when Trump's smarmy, shit-eating smirk flinches, even for an instant, and he realizes he's on the razors edge.
posted by Tevin at 11:21 AM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

I legit don't know if I can handle the debates. I will try, I guess, but I may just hunker down with the current mefi thread at the time and a box of wine.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 11:22 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

The alternative to watching the debates in a location where I will have to drive home is that i will watch VERY drunkenly at home and VERY drunkenly live-post the whole thing on FB which sounds VERY fun but not especially productive or helpful.
posted by Tevin at 11:24 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Many in Virginia will be able to vote starting tomorrow Sept 23.

On that topic - you can see a sample Arlington ballot here. We've got a pretty sweeping right to work initiative on there (codifying in the state constitution what is already law, ridiculously) as well as a potentially lifetime-long property tax giveaway for surviving family of cops and firefighters who die in the line of duty. The same giveaway already exists for vets; I assume next year we'll add DMV employees and the folks who replace light bulbs in streetlights.

I'm just assuming they will both pass even though I have seen no polling on them.
posted by phearlez at 11:27 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

holgate, nothing in your story supports the contention that workers in extractive industries "just want unsustainable extractive industries to continue regardless. They'd cut down all the forests and burn them too"; only that people like to feel they're part of something important and take pride in it.

The choice they are always offered is not coal or solar, but coal or dole.
 
posted by Herodios at 11:29 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm grading on a curve. I will be satisfied with nothing less than a relentless, savage, and surgical attack that keeps the Republican nominee constantly on his heels and firmly in word salad territory.
posted by whuppy at 11:30 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

This is slightly off topic, but I've seen a number of comments suggesting that, if Trump wins, Pence would be the effective president in terms of policy and governing in the same way that Cheney was the effective president while W was in office. I guess I wasn't paying enough attention to politics then, but.. why are people so sure that Cheney was really running things?
posted by zug at 11:31 AM on September 22, 2016

I'm grading on a curve. I will be satisfied with nothing less than a relentless, savage, and surgical attack that keeps the Republican nominee constantly on his heels and firmly in word salad territory.

That's not 'a' curve, that's the Woolmark logo.
posted by psoas at 11:34 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Because people love to assume that is true which makes them feel the most angry.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 11:35 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

but.. why are people so sure that Cheney was really running things?

Because candidate Bush and President Bush were vastly different (although still falling well under the Republican umbrella); Bush was an idiot in general; and Bush administration policies directly affected the bottom line of companies associated with Cheney in a positive way.
posted by LionIndex at 11:35 AM on September 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

I think the best outcome at the debate would be if Trump physically attacked Clinton and the secret service shot him to save her.

That said, I think the debates will be metaphorically similar to Michael Jordan playing playing 1on1 against, well, Donald Trump.

The post debate coverage I expect to be totally shit, but the debate itself should be a great example of what happens when a super-smart/competent/motivated person trains to run for president for 30 years.
posted by VTX at 11:37 AM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

psoas, what can I say? I expect great things from Secretary Clinton.
posted by whuppy at 11:40 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Interesting WaPo series on Cheney's unusual influence as a VP.
posted by en forme de poire at 11:41 AM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

I expect great things from President Clinton.
posted by adamgreenfield at 11:41 AM on September 22, 2016 [28 favorites]

but.. why are people so sure that Cheney was really running things?

There was some statement from him that almost openly admitted it. I forget the full context, but it was like he showed up at some meeting that a VP would not usually be a part of, or was in some way doing work a VP had never really done before and when asked about it he said "the President and I have a different understanding" of the VP role. VPs have little to do, Constitutionally speaking, but suddenly Cheney was involved in all kinds of things. And then he spent a lot of time after 9/11 being hidden in an "undisclosed location" as if he was the important one who needed protecting.
posted by dnash at 11:43 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

(And it's sad that, having typed that, I immediately think of all the ways in which people might use that as an indictment of my political bona fides. I often think of that Paul Ford line about prose on the internet being born defensive, and never have I found it truer than in this fractious season.)
posted by adamgreenfield at 11:44 AM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Since it's "relive the 2000s day in this thread apparently," how about today's news that Donald Rumsfeld is still horrible:

Former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld resurrected a favorite soundbite he once used to gloss over the glaring lack of evidence that Iraq was supplying weapons to terrorists in the months leading up to the U.S. invasion of that country to voice his support for Donald Trump’s presidential campaign.

In a Thursday morning interview on MSNBC, Rumsfeld said throwing his support behind Trump, a “known unknown,” is better than the alternative.

“On the Democrat side we’ve got a known known,” he said with a Cheshire Cat-like grin as the interviewer joined in to laugh. “On the Republican side, we've got a known unknown. And the known known isn’t believable, has a record of not being believable. You can’t lead then, people aren’t going to follow.”

“Now, do you agree with the known unknown on the other side? No! But I’ve never agreed with everybody,” he continued.

Why MSNBC, or anyone, gives Rumsfeld a platform so he can joke about his lies that led us into a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people is inexplicable.
posted by zachlipton at 11:46 AM on September 22, 2016 [52 favorites]

MonkeyToes: Guardian: A Trump campaign chair in Ohio says there was 'no racism' before Obama

Miller also dismissed the racial tensions of the 1960s, when she said she graduated from high school. “Growing up as a kid, there was no racism, believe me. We were just all kids going to school.”

Asked about segregation and the civil rights movement, she replied: “I never experienced it. I never saw that as anything.”

Huh, "never saw it as anything." How's that outreach effort going again?

Atom Eyes: Mahoning County, OH chair Kathy Miller ("no racism before Obama") resigns after "inappropriate comments."

OK, we're back to recognizing that the world existed before Obama took office. The world regained a bit of balance. (Or "the PC Police win again," depending on your view of reality.)
posted by filthy light thief at 11:47 AM on September 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

My current fear about these debates is that Clinton will expose Trump's total ignorance on virtually any issue, and the response from the press will be how the school marm Mrs. Clinton was mean and condescending to cool kid Donnie, and how unrelatable she was to the average smooth-brained ignoramus they presume populates the flyover states in contention.

Never forget that the so-called "liberal media" did exactly the same thing to Gore in 2000. Gore rolled his eyes at the flagrant whoppers Bush was telling, and the post-debate spin was all about how he sighed too much. And look what that got us.

Feh.
posted by Gelatin at 11:52 AM on September 22, 2016 [24 favorites]

dnash: There was some statement from him that almost openly admitted it. I forget the full context, but it was like he showed up at some meeting that a VP would not usually be a part of, or was in some way doing work a VP had never really done before and when asked about it he said "the President and I have a different understanding" of the VP role.

'A Different Understanding With the President' (Washington Post Voices, June 24, 2007)

Cheney brought a four-page text, written in strict secrecy by his lawyer. He carried it back out with him after lunch.

In less than an hour, the document traversed a West Wing circuit that gave its words the power of command. It changed hands four times, according to witnesses, with emphatic instructions to bypass staff review. When it returned to the Oval Office, in a blue portfolio embossed with the presidential seal, Bush pulled a felt-tip pen from his pocket and signed without sitting down. Almost no one else had seen the text.

Cheney's proposal had become a military order from the commander in chief. Foreign terrorism suspects held by the United States were stripped of access to any court -- civilian or military, domestic or foreign. They could be confined indefinitely without charges and would be tried, if at all, in closed "military commissions."

"What the hell just happened?" Secretary of State Colin L. Powell demanded, a witness said, when CNN announced the order that evening, Nov. 13, 2001. National security adviser Condoleezza Rice, incensed, sent an aide to find out. Even witnesses to the Oval Office signing said they did not know the vice president had played any part.

The episode was a defining moment in Cheney's tenure as the 46th vice president of the United States, a post the Constitution left all but devoid of formal authority. "Angler," as the Secret Service code-named him, has approached the levers of power obliquely, skirting orderly lines of debate he once enforced as chief of staff to President Gerald R. Ford.
...
In his Park Avenue corner suite at Cerberus Global Investments, Dan Quayle recalled the moment he learned how much his old job had changed. Cheney had just taken the oath of office, and Quayle paid a visit to offer advice from one vice president to another.

"I said, 'Dick, you know, you're going to be doing a lot of this international traveling, you're going to be doing all this political fundraising . . . you'll be going to the funerals,' " Quayle said in an interview earlier this year. "I mean, this is what vice presidents do. I said, 'We've all done it.' "

Cheney "got that little smile," Quayle said, and replied, "I have a different understanding with the president."

PBS: Frontline Analysis - The Bush-Cheney Relationship -- Close observers and journalists offer their preliminary assessments on the dynamics of this team, drawing on some of the circumstantial evidence.

Bush also gave him, by design, several important portfolios, especially at the beginning. When Bob Graham became chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, he went in a normal sort of courtesy visit to see Bush in the Oval Office. And some time during that first -- and only -- meeting, Bush told him, "Dick Cheney's going to be your point of contact in the White House. He has the brief for intelligence." That's a fairly remarkable thing for a president to do.

posted by filthy light thief at 11:54 AM on September 22, 2016 [28 favorites]

Consequences and causality are making a comeback in GOP politics?
posted by Artw at 11:54 AM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Pence isn't going to be running shit, BTW. On any subject Trump will pull something out of his ass on the spur of the moment or, if it's something he doesn't care about, go wit whoever is sucking up to him the most. Russian agents and far right radio hosts will be getting calls before Pence gets any.
posted by Artw at 11:58 AM on September 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

The choice they are always offered is not coal or solar, but coal or dole.

By whom? At some point you have to take people at their word, and what they want is for their communities to be frozen in time.
posted by holgate at 11:59 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've said this here before, but my response to people who think George W. Bush was behind the 9/11 attacks: Nope. Cheney would never have included him.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:59 AM on September 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

Never forget that the so-called "liberal media" did exactly the same thing to Gore in 2000. Gore rolled his eyes at the flagrant whoppers Bush was telling, and the post-debate spin was all about how he sighed too much. And look what that got us.

Hillary may be no Barack, but she has more charisma and style than Gore. Sorry Al, you were in a tough spot in so many ways, coming after Bill who was loved by some and loathed by others, and facing against everything that came with Bush Jr.

I don't doubt that there'll be some shitty calls on what Hillary "flubbed," but I have some hope for a more diverse post-debate analysis in the wake of Matt Lauer's job at the Commander in Chief mess, even if some outlets like CNN Money claim it's "Twitter" who had the message for NBC News (way to avoid having one journalist scorn another for not doing their damned job).
posted by filthy light thief at 12:00 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

...according to the Kasich adviser (who spoke only under the condition that he not be named), Donald Jr. wanted to make him an offer nonetheless: Did he have any interest in being the most powerful vice president in history?

When Kasich’s adviser asked how this would be the case, Donald Jr. explained that his father’s vice president would be in charge of domestic and foreign policy.

Then what, the adviser asked, would Trump be in charge of?

“Making America great again” was the casual reply.

posted by kirkaracha at 12:02 PM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

Also The Dubz refused to testify in front of the 9/11 Commission if Dick wouldn't hold his hand.

That it's not common knowledge Dick ran everything is just Trumpfigating.

Sadly, Trump has no such filters.
posted by petebest at 12:02 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

For those doubting Cheney's unprecedented role in the Bush Administration, consider the Energy Task Force launched immediately after inauguration, which was essentially Cheney arrogating the powers of the presidency to secretly ensure that the racket he and his friends enjoyed wouldn't be threatened by concern for the dangers it posed to the future of human civilization. It looked like a scandal that wasn't going away until 9/11 happened, and then as filthy light thief just pointed out, Cheney used that crisis perfectly to assume as much authority as he could from the scared and feckless failson who was the putative Commander-in-Chief.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 12:03 PM on September 22, 2016 [19 favorites]

Artw: Pence isn't going to be running shit, BTW.

Oh, I agree. I was pulling citations for dnash. Pence is the "stoic backdrop" to the frantic energy of Trump.

Then what, the adviser asked, would Trump be in charge of?

“Making America great again” was the casual reply.

Or Pence could be tasked with the difficult "presidential" stuff, and Donald could be the face of America the Great, kind of like the whole thing in England, right? He'll be the king, and Pence can deal with the paperwork and bureaucracy of making the king's decrees law.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:04 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Can you imagine the pay-per-view revenues from pouring a half-dozen shots into Obama, giving him a microphone, and just letting him go wild?

He has a great career ahead of him as a standup comedian if he wants it.
posted by msalt at 12:05 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

Pence seems to have the intelligence and competence of W. Having him pull the strings on a Trump presidency would be like have W as president without the mitigating evil genius of Cheney. Plus, every now and then, the puppet would go berserk and launch a missile at Tanzania.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:06 PM on September 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

I don't know if Cheney actually ended up going to a lot of funerals, but he kept it casual at a ceremony honoring the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

Because it was cold and snowing, they were also wearing gentlemen's hats. In short, they were dressed for the inclement weather as well as the sobriety and dignity of the event.

The vice president, however, was dressed in the kind of attire one typically wears to operate a snow blower.

posted by kirkaracha at 12:06 PM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

"I expect great things from President Clinton."

I'll be honest and I say I wish I could agree with you but I don't and have not the will to explain why beyond the fact that when she is elected, she'll be facing an increased republican house and the ones who have become mostly silent/ let it play out crowd.
Or, let them battle the Cheeto while we buy and sell the factory.

Everyone's been rooked. What suprises me is the anger at political minutiae seemlessly over rides more realistic concerns. Which the press just reverses and falls back to the orchestral music and jackdaws.
posted by clavdivs at 12:10 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't want to start wondering if those jet engines are going to mark the start of WW3.

I've pondered what a Trump Presidency would mean for the US strategic forces. Specifically I am thinking about a 21-year-old in a missile solo on North Dakota getting the order to fire an ICBM at Russia and wondering if this is because Putin's forces have invaded the Baltics to annex them or because the mayor of Omsk suggested Trump's net worth was much lower than he claimed.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:13 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

"Because it was cold and snowing, they were also wearing gentlemen's hats. In short, they were dressed for the inclement weather as well as the sobriety and dignity of the event.

The vice president, however, was dressed in the kind of attire one typically wears to operate a snow blower."

OMG I have waited my entire life for someone to clothing-shame a man in power.

Not the equality I was hoping for where no one GAF about what you're wearing no matter what your gender, but baby, I'll take it.
posted by Mchelly at 12:16 PM on September 22, 2016 [39 favorites]

I have 0% pity for Pence, but yeah, being Trump's Shadow President VP means that any possible good thing you do, he will take credit for and then probably shit on. It's what he does.
posted by emjaybee at 12:21 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

I remember a huge thread on the blue about that event.
posted by smcniven at 12:21 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Specifically I am thinking about a 21-year-old in a missile solo on North Dakota getting the order to fire an ICBM at Russia and wondering if this is because Putin's forces have invaded the Baltics to annex them or because the mayor of Omsk suggested Trump's net worth was much lower than he claimed.

And by the way, with Iran, when they circle our beautiful destroyers with their little boats, and they make gestures at our people that they shouldn’t be allowed to make, they will be shot out of the water. Okay, believe me.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by kirkaracha at 12:25 PM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

I remember a huge thread on the blue about that event.

Better buckle up your browser because it weighs in at an eye-popping 117 comments!
posted by theodolite at 12:26 PM on September 22, 2016 [37 favorites]

Gore rolled his eyes at the flagrant whoppers Bush was telling, and the post-debate spin was all about how he sighed too much. And look what that got us.

There is SO much more patriarchal behavioral regulation of women that I don't think Hillary could openly eye-roll in disdain even if she tried.

That's what she was talking about in her HONY piece -- she's had to learn to "behave" so many times over by now (that she comes across as standoffish), but there's just no way that she'd do what Gore did.

She may make different "mistakes" handling Trump, but they'll be well-honed responses at any rate.
posted by Dashy at 12:27 PM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

There's a lot of "well obviously Trump is worse but IT IS SUPER IMPORTANT THAT I TALK ABOUT HOW AWFUL HILLARY CLINTON IS" and it's starting to really grate.

oh god this chaps my hide like none other. Anyone who at this point still needs to shout about that just gets a giant The Rock-style eyeroll from me.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 12:30 PM on September 22, 2016 [20 favorites]

Yeah I remember writing about Cheney's unseemly funeral attaire on my blog. It was one of those things that flared up and then died away quickly-- much like the many, many shitty things Trump has said or done.

Daniel dale had a letter from someone who suggested that Clinton make soft pigeon noises every time Trump lies during the debates after announcing her intention to do so in advance. I admit, it cracked me up.

Meanwhile Trump Jr. was on the Doug Wright Show on KSL News Radio on Wednesday and said again that releasing Senior's tax returns would be too big of a distraction.

“I think we’ve been under audit for five years,” Trump Jr. said. “Who knows if that’s politically motivated or not, but our tax counsel, going through a 12,000-page tax return, has said they wouldn’t advise us to do it. It could create all sorts of other problems. I’m going to listen to them on that.”

“We’ve released a 110-page disclosure form,” he continued. “That disclosure form is larger than most people’s tax returns. When you have a business record, a business track record of my father and 40 years of it, there’s a lot in a 12,000-page tax return that wouldn’t make sense to open up.”

I really did not think he ever would release his taxes but this makes it sound like a final decision.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:32 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Gary Johnson isn't worried about climate change because eventually the sun will envelope the earth entirely.
posted by octothorpe at 12:35 PM on September 22, 2016 [14 favorites]

Gary, there's vapes, tinctures, and all sorts of other stuff you can use without anyone noticing but that doesn't mean you should bring your shit with you on the campaign trail.
posted by rdr at 12:39 PM on September 22, 2016 [20 favorites]

Trump Jr. keeps pulling out this argument and it's terrible, perhaps because he's an idiot. "Not going to release them while I'm under audit" is a stupid argument, but if you keep repeating it, there's not a lot that people can say in response. In contrast, "not going to release them because lots of people will look at them and they just won't be able to handle it" is one of the worst arguments ever. It, oddly enough, happens to be more or less the truth, but they really stick to something better than "people will see the taxes and get mad."
posted by zachlipton at 12:39 PM on September 22, 2016 [17 favorites]

The former New Mexico governor did acknowledge that humans are making the world warmer in the near term, too—but he doesn’t think the government should do much about it. In the same speech, he denounced “cap-and-trade taxation,” said we “should be building new coal-fired plants,” and argued that the “trillions” of dollars it would cost to combat climate change would be better spent on other priorities.

....and what is Aleppo?

Seriously, you jackass, if you think the refugee crisis from the Syrian civil war is a problem, multiply that by 10,000. That's what you're proposing.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:40 PM on September 22, 2016 [11 favorites]

What do black people have to lose, the Hartford Courant applied that question to Trump's adventure in Gary, Indiana.
posted by Talez at 12:41 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

This is slightly off topic, but I've seen a number of comments suggesting that, if Trump wins, Pence would be the effective president in terms of policy and governing in the same way that Cheney was the effective president while W was in office.

Pence isn't highly regarded as effective here in Indiana. Even among conservatives, who fault him for backing down on the so-called "religious freedom" bill that would have permitted discrimination toward same-sex couples.

I agree, though, that Trump won't actually delegate much to Pence, but whatever he does, expect Pence to foul it up.
posted by Gelatin at 12:45 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

The former New Mexico governor did acknowledge that humans are making the world warmer in the near term, too—but he doesn’t think the government should do much about it.

I love how perilously close Johnson skirts to realizing how asinine his libertarian ideology is, then veers back to the comforting ground of denouncing taxes.
posted by Gelatin at 12:48 PM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

Pence: "Trump and I believe there's been far too much talk about institutional bias and racism within law enforcement"...calls it "rhetoric of division."
posted by melissasaurus at 12:53 PM on September 22, 2016

Ines de La Cuetara: Pence: "Trump and I believe there's been far too much talk about institutional bias and racism within law enforcement"

First of all, is that what Pence calls him? Trump? Not Mr. Trump or Donald?

But more importantly, what is the right amount of talk about institutional bias and racism by the cops? Should it be limited to one hour per dead body? Should we say that you are only allowed to discuss the death of an unarmed black person shot by the police if you live in the state where it happened? Does the media or Donald Trump decide how much talk can be allowed? Will there be legislation or just guidelines? I need to know if my husband starts talking about the latest shooting if I should a) shush him, b) allow him 5 minutes to rant and then shush him, or c) turn him in for talking too much.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:54 PM on September 22, 2016 [30 favorites]

"Trump and I believe there's been far too much talk about institutional bias and racism within law enforcement"...calls it "rhetoric of division."

FOLLOWUP QUESTION: "Do you believe institutional bias and racism does not exist within law enforcement?"
posted by Gelatin at 12:56 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

I know this isn't what that initiative is about, but I was always kind of bemused by the fact that elections are not holidays in the US. Isn't that kind of discriminatory against people who don't have cushty jobs that allow them to take time off in the middle of the week? I mean wage earners or any sort of retail worker.

As a fun fact I will ad that in my former country elections are always on a Sunday and your employer has to accommodate your civic participation without any sort of compensation loss.

These businesses generally don't close for holidays anyway, so that wouldn't make a difference. And (as far as I know) employers are required to give you four hours off work to vote ... but it is unpaid, and (as far as I know) they'll grumble and give you shit if you try to actually take that leave and it'll count against you in this nebulous social kind of way.

I've wondered if stretching the polls out over two days would help, because it could legitimately be a scheduling problem, if everyone needs time off on the same day.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 12:57 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Let me guess, he didn't finish that sentence by saying "and therefore I'm calling today for the immediate implementation of a comprehensive plan of reform to improve police accountability, rigorous federal oversight, and a commitment to doing the work over the long-term to try to restore trust of law enforcement in our communities?"
posted by zachlipton at 12:58 PM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

What do black people have to lose, the Hartford Courant applied that question to Trump's adventure in Gary, Indiana.

From the article:

In a September 1994 presentation, Trump's team touted his "superior marketing and advertising abilities" to pitch a 340-foot long vessel called Trump Princess...

In 2004, Trump Hotel & Casino Resorts Inc., the parent company of the Gary casino, sought Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. Trump sought to restructure $1.8 billion in debt, much of it tied to hotels and casinos in New Jersey and New York.

Let me get this straight, in 10 years, the guy with "superior marketing and advertising abilities" had almost TWO BILLION DOLLARS in debt in what was considered generally a period of considerable growth and he named a casino boat as if it were one of his daughters?

Dumb AND creepy, my kind of guy.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:59 PM on September 22, 2016 [12 favorites]

And (as far as I know) employers are required to give you four hours off work to vote

This is governed by state law, there is no universal federal one.
posted by Justinian at 1:00 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

"I'm With Her" written by Amanda Green & Zoe Sarnak
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:03 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

And (as far as I know) employers are required to give you four hours off work to vote

Employers are "required" to do a lot of things; laws aren't self-enforcing. And often the issue is not one of time, per se, but of lost wages. Many families cannot reduce their weekly income by 1-5+ hours without significant negative consequences.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:05 PM on September 22, 2016 [12 favorites]

What do black people have to lose, the Hartford Courant applied that question to Trump's adventure in Gary, Indiana.

He's a regular Harold Hill.

Yes I know it's not set in Gary.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 1:06 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

> Gary Johnson isn't worried about climate change because eventually the sun will envelope the earth entirely.

One common complaint about politicians is that they don't think or plan for the long-term. Well, Gary Johnson is here to tell you he's a different breed of politician.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:09 PM on September 22, 2016 [30 favorites]

"Trump and I believe there's been far too much talk about institutional bias and racism within law enforcement"...calls it "rhetoric of division."


We promise we'll talk about it less if somebody does something about it.
posted by rocket88 at 1:09 PM on September 22, 2016 [12 favorites]

And (as far as I know) employers are required to give you four hours off work to vote ... but it is unpaid, and (as far as I know) they'll grumble and give you shit if you try to actually take that leave and it'll count against you in this nebulous social kind of way.

State-by-State Time Off to Vote Laws

Lots of states have no laws requiring employers to give you time off to vote. My state, North Carolina, has no such law.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:11 PM on September 22, 2016 [11 favorites]

melissasaurus: Pence: "Trump and I believe there's been far too much talk about institutional bias and racism within law enforcement"...calls it "rhetoric of division."

Yup, it is, and you and your running mate are promoting that rhetoric. As oddly summarized by NPR:

Trump has made what he calls a return to law and order a centerpiece of his campaign. Trump devoted a lot of time to the issue in his address to the Republican National Convention, where he vowed: "The crime and violence that today afflicts our nation will soon, and I mean very soon, come to an end. Beginning on January 20th of 2017, safety will be restored."
...
While Trump has expressed some worry about times when police killed unarmed people, he often focuses on how law enforcement feels, especially after deadly assaults on police in Baton Rouge and Dallas this year.

(Emphasis mine.) I'd like to call this the Trump pirouette, spinning from being the one to version of reality to another, hoping everyone is impressed with how well he spins. Instead, he feeds the notion that police are wrongly persecuted for killing more people in days than other countries do in years (Guardian, June 9, 2015) -- The Guardian has built the most comprehensive database of US police killing ever published. Compare our findings to those from the UK, Australia, Iceland and beyond.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:16 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

I've been reflecting on who I have and haven't unfriended on social media, and it's best summed up with three examples.

There was the ex-military guy whose anti-Muslim screeds and memes, peppered with proud photos of his teenage daughter going out in skimpy outfits (all the while warning teenage boys about how many guns he has) were somehow ignorable until he suddenly (and completely unsurprisingly) found Trump his Lord and Savior and I became physically ill every time I saw his detestable smug face in my browser, and I finally and ceremoniously defriended him with a celebratory microbrew.

There's the former college professor who posted Why Voting for Donald Trump is a Morally Good Choice, which, in case you haven't read it, will provide you with an unfiltered view of the evangelical mindset in 2016. It's frankly astounding to me that actual adults can be this blinkered, but if there's any encouragement to be found here, it's that this feels like the last gasp of a particularly outmoded conservatism. The comments and discussions that emerge from her posts are pretty sharp, though, so I'm not tempted to call it quits.

Then there's the old friend who despises Hillary with every fiber of his being and hates Trump only slightly less, and therefore will be voting for Trump, and he won't think twice about commenting on nearly every political post I share. He probably even identifies as being a member of the alt right, although I doubt I'd ever see him admit it. AND YET. He's intractable yet not uncivil, he's genuinely interested in my life and family, he's funny as often as he infuriating. 20 years from now we'll probably be doing this all over again. If I were to purge my social media stream of everyone who I disagreed with, he'd be gone in a heartbeat. But he's a good sparring partner, and we actually manage to maintain a friendship. Maybe we're the Oscar and Felix of social media.
posted by vverse23 at 1:16 PM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

I don't believe that any state has a law requiring child care to be provided to allow people to vote, either.
posted by Etrigan at 1:18 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

For non-US people: Why we vote on Tuesday

Basically, because we cannot possible require people do something other than church on a Sunday - so the elections allow time to travel via horse & buggy to the county seat on Monday, stay overnight, and vote the next day. The law has not been updated to keep up with transportation tech and multiple voting locations within a county.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:18 PM on September 22, 2016 [12 favorites]

Something I've been trying to figure out for a long time -- exactly what is legal for a Legal Permanent Resident ("green card" holder) to do?

The FEC etc. "election laws simplified" pages never mention permanent residents; but the NYT had an article that suggested LPR's *are* allowed to donate money (and time) to political campaigns. I'd like to see the actual law that says it's OK.

Can I give money to HRC? Can I volunteer? Hope me!
posted by phliar at 1:20 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

As oddly summarized by NPR:

Trump has made what he calls a return to law and order a centerpiece of his campaign.

For a while, one of the soundbites in NPR's election coverage house ads had Trump bellowing "I am the law and order candidate!"

I was born in 1967, and I know full well what a dogwhistle "law and order" is.

Maybe that's one of those things NPR hopes its listeners will realize, even if it wouldn't be so gauche as to actually tell them.
posted by Gelatin at 1:20 PM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

Something I've been trying to figure out for a long time -- exactly what is legal for a Legal Permanent Resident ("green card" holder) to do

The FEC has a whole brochure just for you!
posted by zachlipton at 1:22 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

I recently unfriended someone who didn't actually do me any harm for the very first time. He posted #allheadphonesmatter about the new iPhone.
posted by yellowbinder at 1:23 PM on September 22, 2016 [14 favorites]

Liberals Have Failed to Teach Millennials About the Horror of George W. Bush:

If 18-to 29-year-olds vote for third-party candidates in sufficient numbers to tip the election to Trump, it will be the consequence of a liberal failure to build an oral tradition around the Bush administration, from Ralph Nader’s vote haul in Florida through the injustice of the recount and the ensuing plutocratic fiscal policy; the 9/11 intelligence failure; the war of choice in Iraq sold with false intelligence and launched without an occupation plan; the malpractice that killed hundreds in New Orleans; the scandalousness that makes the fainting couch routine over Clinton’s emails seem Oscar-worthy; and finally to the laissez-faire regulatory regime and ensuing financial crisis that continues to shape the economic lives of young voters to this day.

posted by kirkaracha at 1:24 PM on September 22, 2016 [13 favorites]

> "... the elections allow time to travel via horse & buggy to the county seat on Monday, stay overnight, and vote the next day."

Well, it's the Model T Ford made the trouble,
Made the people wanna go,
Wanna get,
Wanna get,
Wanna get up and go
posted by kyrademon at 1:25 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Conservatives File Voter Registration Lawsuits That Liberals Say Are Blocking Votes (NPR, September 21, 2016):

conservative groups, Public Interest Legal Foundation and the American Civil Rights Union* are taking a number of election officials to court, saying they're not doing their jobs. They have identified over 200 counties that have more registered voters than they have residents, targeted about a dozen counties so far in Texas, Florida, North Carolina and Mississippi. And even some cities, such as Philadelphia and Alexandria, Va.

Hmm, Texas, Florida, North Carolina and Mississippi? Hmm, two bright red states, and two battleground states, odd.

*ACRU, because ACLU was too left-leaning. Like Civil Liberties and Rights are something you can be too liberal about. Literally, that's why ACRU was started, in 1998.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:25 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Also, if you go donate to Hillary, you accept these terms (emphasis added):

By clicking “Donate”, I certify that:

I am a U.S. citizen or lawfully admitted permanent resident of the U.S.
I am making this contribution on a personal card with my own personal funds, not those of another person or entity.
I am not a federal contractor.
I am at least 18 years old.

posted by zachlipton at 1:26 PM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

IDK, man. Everyone my age that I know talks all the damn time about 2000 and Nader and Florida and GWB. Like, I know I'm old and uncool and can't be trusted to know what Netflix and Chill really means, but just because no one has absorbed this information doesn't mean it hasn't been preached.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:26 PM on September 22, 2016 [13 favorites]

> The former New Mexico governor did acknowledge that humans are making the world warmer in the near term, too—but he doesn’t think the government should do much about it.

I love how perilously close Johnson skirts to realizing how asinine his libertarian ideology is, then veers back to the comforting ground of denouncing taxes.

This past weekend I had a political discussion in which my interlocutor suggested that the United States should not have funded the Manhattan Project. Not because of there being anything wrong with incinerating 130,000 people, but to save money: because supposedly the Constitution does not grant the federal government the authority to fund science.

This being a Trump supporter, a candidate whose eyes glitter with delight whenever he talks about nuclear weapons.

When I subsequently checked, a passage I'd misremembered as being in the earliest patent law is actually in the Constitution itself, Article I, Section 8:

The Congress shall have Power... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

posted by XMLicious at 1:36 PM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

exactly what is legal for a Legal Permanent Resident ("green card" holder) to do?

Everything except vote, more or less. (I'd give a wide berth to volunteer activities in and around polling places, out of an abundance of caution, though that's controlled by state law.)

There's no restriction on uncompensated volunteering.
posted by holgate at 1:40 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

a favorite soundbite he once used to gloss over the glaring lack of evidence that Iraq was supplying weapons to terrorists in the months leading up to the U.S. invasion of that country

Someone got a citation on this usage? I recalled it being used by Rumsfeld when talking about the uncertainties of waging war, not about determining the accuracy of the Iraq weapons stuff. I'm about 99% certain on that, in fact, since I recall the discussion of it when I was still living in Florida and the war prep and votes happened when I'd been in N VA for quite a while.

In the context of project management, known unknowns versus unknowns is a perfectly reasonable descriptor and it's always annoyed me to see Rumsfeld made fun of for this. The man has so so SO many valid things to eviscerate him for, going after this funny-sounding description of assessing risks that you can find in PMI training is dumb.
posted by phearlez at 1:44 PM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

Here's a transcript of an email conversation between David Frum and Rob Glasser about the latter's new website devoted to exploring the dangerous ramifications of the Trump-Putin connection. It's both a clearinghouse of pieces posted elsewhere and a source of original analysis per the site's description of its aims and intent. From the site, "[t]he Putin-Trump Editorial Director is Bill Buzenberg, former head of the Center for Public Integrity, a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative news organization, and vice president of news for both National Public Radio and Minnesota Public Radio / American Public Media."
posted by carmicha at 1:46 PM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

In the context of project management, known unknowns versus unknowns is a perfectly reasonable descriptor and it's always annoyed me to see Rumsfeld made fun of for this. The man has so so SO many valid things to eviscerate him for, going after this funny-sounding description of assessing risks that you can find in PMI training is dumb.

Oh my god, this exactly. Of all the heinous shit he did and said people decided to remember the time he said something perfectly reasonable and it's maddening.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:48 PM on September 22, 2016 [12 favorites]

Trump: "You know, [the police are] proactive and if they see a person possibly with a gun or they think may have a gun, they will see the person and they’ll look and they’ll take the gun away"

Can you even imagine the size of the freakout if Hillary Clinton said that she wanted police to actively search people in the street for guns to confiscate? Can you fucking imagine it? It would be A1 headline news. The head of the NRA would be on every Sunday show denouncing it. She'd drop 5 points immediately. It would be the first question at the debate - How many guns do you plan to take away, Sec. Clinton? What will you do with the guns you steal from us?

It's madness. He can say literally anything and nothing happens. How is this not enormous news? I have a pretty high threshold for insanity here but I am completely out of evens.
posted by 0xFCAF at 1:50 PM on September 22, 2016 [66 favorites]

How is this not enormous news?

it's all just "BABY-EATER KICKS PUPPY" news at this point. Oh, Trump said something heinous and disqualifying? Meh. Water is wet.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:54 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

> Liberals Have Failed to Teach Millennials About the Horror of George W. Bush:

2028 (written in charcoal on a wall): Liberals Have Failed To Teach Post-Millennials About The Horror Of Donald Trump, Even Though They Should *Already Know This* Because We're All Living In A Post-Apocalyptic Wasteland Because Of Trump.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:55 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

He can say literally anything and nothing happens. How is this not enormous news?

He's said literally everything, and we're all a bit jaded from over exposure.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:55 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

About those locations with more registered voters than residents: "...the law prohibits voters' names from being removed until after they have been notified that there's a question about their registration and they fail to vote in two consecutive federal elections. Voters can be removed more quickly if there's concrete evidence they've died, moved or otherwise become ineligible."

Any place with a mobile populace can have more registrations on file than residents. Places where people change their parties may have the same problem - I'm not sure if each party has separate lists.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:56 PM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

Can you even imagine the size of the freakout if Hillary Clinton said that she wanted police to actively search people in the street for guns to confiscate? Can you fucking imagine it? It would be A1 headline news. The head of the NRA would be on every Sunday show denouncing it. She'd drop 5 points immediately. It would be the first question at the debate - How many guns do you plan to take away, Sec. Clinton? What will you do with the guns you steal from us?

It's madness. He can say literally anything and nothing happens. How is this not enormous news? I have a pretty high threshold for insanity here but I am completely out of evens.

It has to be the assumption (which can be pretty much taken for granted IMO) that Trump only means black people. The NRA is cool with that, from what I can tell; it's pretty much indistinguishable from a white supremacist org at this point. And stop-and-frisk is at its root a racist policy only aimed at PoC.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:56 PM on September 22, 2016 [22 favorites]

lol that makes me want to start one of those outbrain ad clickbait websites that you see everywhere - 'ONE of these presidential candidates wants police to frisk random citizens in the street and confiscate their guns!!! You'll never guess which one!!!!!!'.
posted by aiglet at 1:58 PM on September 22, 2016 [11 favorites]

They have identified over 200 counties that have more registered voters than they have residents, targeted about a dozen counties so far in Texas, Florida, North Carolina and Mississippi. And even some cities, such as Philadelphia and Alexandria, Va.

Well golly, they found there's people from Alexandria, just down the street from the Pentagon and up the road from Quantico and West of Annapolis, who are registered to vote but not currently residing there???!? HOW COULD THAT POSSIBLY BE REA-

oh, wait, the law about being deployed military and still getting to vote in Virginia? Yeah that's here somewhere, I'm sure it's super restrictive and stuff.

§ 24.2-453. Restriction of ballot eligibility.
To be eligible to vote in state and local elections, the application of an overseas voter who has given up his place of abode in Virginia must show that the applicant is employed overseas or the spouse or dependent of a person employed overseas.

Of COURSE Alexandria has more registered voters than residents, dummies.

The same applies to TX and NC where there's large military bases. What nonsense.
posted by phearlez at 1:59 PM on September 22, 2016 [31 favorites]

octothorpe's link to the Slate piece on how Gary Johnson is not worried about climate change because the sun will eventually envelop the earth made me laugh out loud and led to the following series of spluttered remarks from the spouse.

That's like saying..
Gary Johnson doesn't worry about murder because everyone is going to die eventually anyway.
Or Gary Johnson doesn't worry about...
Wait what do libertarians care about?
It's like saying Gary Johnson doesn't worry about over-taxation because the sun will eventually envelop the earth anyway.
...
You should stop reading about the election, it's not good for me.

Johnson's actual quote from 2011 is slightly less ridiculous at first glance -- “the sun is going to actually grow and encompass the Earth, right? So global warming is in our future” -- but really, we don't have to worry about anything because death is in our future.
posted by spamandkimchi at 1:59 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

I see that Gary Johnson has been busy. He won't be winning many hearts and minds in sea-level South Florida with those comments about climate change.

We were calling Ohio Democrats today to (1) confirm support for Hillary (2) push vote-by-mail (3) check support for the Senate candidate, Ted Strickland. There's a cool new automated system that ignores nonworking numbers and non-answered phones and connects you directly to real people. I heard from several women in their late eighties and nineties who were very motivated to support Hillary. Most younger people were at work. Most people were less sure about Strickland, so I focused on the importance of a Senate majority, which went over well but didn't convert anyone.

Of course, I also got a few hang-ups and refusals to talk politics over the phone. One man who answered for his wife and said "we're all strong Trump people here." I would rather have spoken to the wife without the husband in the room, but all I could do was wish him well and say a polite goodbye. If I get that again I'll probably mark the record Call Back.
posted by Leslie Knope at 2:00 PM on September 22, 2016 [18 favorites]

I watch the debates because I don't trust the post-game analysis.

I never watch the debates because they have nothing to do with who "wins" the debates. All anybody remembers is who the networks crown the winner.
posted by kythuen at 2:01 PM on September 22, 2016

prize bull octorok: Oh, Trump said something heinous and disqualifying? Meh. Water is wet.

HIS VERY SUPPORTERS have said time and again "you can't believe everything he says." He wins these kind of discussions by default because he has defined himself as "the guy who will say anything, including very contradictory statements, who then refuses to believe he said differently 5 minutes ago, even when he's on record" and many people are perfectly fine with that. Even if he's hyped as the no-holds-barred tell-it-like-it-is guy. Because you shouldn't be able to be that guy and the unreliable liar, but here we are, and there he is.

And he a chance of being the next President of the United States of America. Ffffuuuuu....
posted by filthy light thief at 2:01 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

> What do black people have to lose, the Hartford Courant applied that question to Trump's adventure in Gary, Indiana.

Another bankrupt casino? Besides the ones operated by others that license his name, has Trump ever operated a casino anywhere that didn't go bankrupt? Googling "trump successful casino" came up empty.
posted by morganw at 2:02 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well, that's the problem with giving so much money away. Really, casinos are like charities, ya know? People come in, and they get money back.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:04 PM on September 22, 2016

If you don't regularly listen to Radio Free GOP, you may be interested in the last episode featuring (Democratic wonk) Paul Begala. They talk about the polls tightening and debate prep.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:05 PM on September 22, 2016

It takes a very special kind of business incompetence to make a casino go bankrupt (of course, personally skimming off the top into your own pocket helps). And he'll do for America what he did for Atlantic City!

(if he gets too close to winning, take your money out of EVERYTHING; mattress stuffing is the safest investment in Trumputin's America)
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:08 PM on September 22, 2016

(if he gets too close to winning, take your money out of EVERYTHING; mattress stuffing is the safest investment in Trumputin's America)

Go long on mattress retailers.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:10 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

I thought this article about the Clinton Foundation was interesting as an explanation of how Bill Clinton used his celebrity and soft power as an ex-president to do good. Schmoozing for humanity.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 2:11 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Someone got a citation on this usage? I recalled it being used by Rumsfeld when talking about the uncertainties of waging war, not about determining the accuracy of the Iraq weapons stuff. I'm about 99% certain on that, in fact, since I recall the discussion of it when I was still living in Florida and the war prep and votes happened when I'd been in N VA for quite a while.

The link to the transcript is in the article. Here's the "known unknowns" bit from February 12, 2002:

Q: Could I follow up, Mr. Secretary, on what you just said, please? In regard to Iraq weapons of mass destruction and terrorists, is there any evidence to indicate that Iraq has attempted to or is willing to supply terrorists with weapons of mass destruction? Because there are reports that there is no evidence of a direct link between Baghdad and some of these terrorist organizations.

Rumsfeld: Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.

And so people who have the omniscience that they can say with high certainty that something has not happened or is not being tried, have capabilities that are -- what was the word you used, Pam, earlier?

Q: Free associate? (laughs)

Rumsfeld: Yeah. They can -- (chuckles) -- they can do things I can't do. (laughter)

Q: Excuse me. But is this an unknown unknown?

Rumsfeld: I'm not --

Q: Because you said several unknowns, and I'm just wondering if this is an unknown unknown.

Rumsfeld: I'm not going to say which it is.

You are right that the concept of "known unknowns" and "unknown unknowns" is a sound and useful one when assessing risk. In this case, Rumsfeld is discussing reports that say Iraq wasn't trying to supply terrorists with WMDs. It was one of the earliest steps in the process of making the case for the war. In this press conference, Rumsfeld specifically linked Iraq, WMDs, and the threat of terrorism against the US. If the next words out of his mouth were "and since this is an unknown unknown, we should not go to war until we believe the people we are fighting against plan to do us harm," that would be very different. Instead, he was essentially dismissing intelligence that might have argued against the war, because, well, Iraq giving WMDs to terrorists could be an "unknown unknown," so why listen to the reports saying there are no links?
posted by zachlipton at 2:11 PM on September 22, 2016 [14 favorites]

Of course, I also got a few hang-ups and refusals to talk politics over the phone. One man who answered for his wife and said "we're all strong Trump people here." I would rather have spoken to the wife without the husband in the room, but all I could do was wish him well and say a polite goodbye. If I get that again I'll probably mark the record Call Back.

Remember this one the next time someone suggests what a great idea it would be if your state moved completely to mail-in ballots like Oregon.
posted by indubitable at 2:14 PM on September 22, 2016 [21 favorites]

I'll definitely be watching the debate, if only because I'm a tiny bit nervous for Hillary, because if she does anything a little off-key it'll be blown up into A Thing, whereas Trump would exceed expectations by not throwing up on the moderator.

Trump's take-your-guns comment barely registered in my mind because he's said so many outrageous and inconsistent things with such great frequency that he's normalized whatever comes out of his mouth. "That's just Donald being Donald, he'll say something else tonight, this *can't* be serious" we think as he proposes reducing youth unemployment by sending children into the coal mines [fake].

I did enjoy this piece about Hillary's policy team.

"The price tag for all of this comes to some $1.6 to $1.7 trillion in new spending over the next decade, according to an independent assessment by the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget. Clinton intends to pay for this by increasing taxes on the wealthy (the assessment found her accounting convincing.) Her plan is less expansive than the one offered by Sanders,[6] and there are some places where Clinton didn’t go as far as she could have. Instead of a sweeping tax on financial transactions, for instance, she called for a narrow one, relinquishing a potentially huge source of revenue. Still, Lawrence Mishel, president of the Economic Policy Institute and a longtime dissenter from the centrist consensus, told me he was struck by its direction: “Her agenda would have to be seen as more complete, more focused on generating wage growth and jobs than I’ve seen from other candidates [since the 1980s]—and therefore I think it’s more progressive.”"
posted by Leslie Knope at 2:14 PM on September 22, 2016 [11 favorites]

For more on "known knowns" and such, which is getting rather off topic, the Wikipedia article has a summary, and the subject is given extensive treatment in Errol Morris's The Unknown Known, one of the most frustrating films ever made.
posted by zachlipton at 2:17 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

In setting expectations for Hillary, I think Trump made a misstep by portraying her as a weakling. Because she isn't one, and I think there's a good chance she's going to come out swinging. I think a lot of his supporters expect him to annihilate her, and when she starts gutting him for not using, well, facts, it seems like his options are bluster (likely) or sitting back and taking it. The Obama even-but-forceful response isn't in his playbook.
posted by craven_morhead at 2:19 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

From way upthread:

porpoise: Precisely this; I doubt that very many Trump supporters will follow the debates themselves, I highly suspect they'll blithely swallow whatever "analysis" their source of media will spin it.

This is why I don't believe Hillary can "win" a debate, even if she wins a debate (or all three) -- "winning a debate" should mean swaying voters to your side. Can't happen if the people who are currently voting for your opponent aren't watching and won't hear any facts about the debate.
posted by chonus at 2:20 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Speaking of Trump's ability to just say basically anything (racism, anti-conservative doctrine stuff, self-contradictions, straight up lies, etc...) and get away with it, the Seattle alt-weekly The Stranger has an interview with Mike Daisey about his upcoming stage show about Trump. It's a real long interview that makes it a little hard to excerpt but one of the key points Daisey raises is that people don't evaluate Trump as a politician but as a performer.

He’s just basically telling you, “I said a thing, but when I said it, you don’t have to take it as seriously because it’s me that’s saying it. Just take it like I’m saying it,” which is the essence of a performer. He’s performing the role of Donald Trump, who we the electorate, especially, have gotten used to listening for many years, so we hear him with that kind of authority, namely an authority that is the opposite of an objective authority. Instead, whenever we hear him say something we think, “There’s Donald Trump saying something,” which is what accounts in part for the polling that has made journalists crazy, where they poll people and they’re like, “Donald Trump lies a lot. Does it bother you?” And people are like, “No, not very much.”

posted by mhum at 2:23 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

In setting expectations for Hillary, I think Trump made a misstep by portraying her as a weakling.

I think Trump has to believe all his opponents are "weaklings" and "losers." He's a bully at heart; he wants to be the big strong kid who stomps on the weak fragile ones - and he appeals to everyone else who wants to do that. Also, if he allowed himself to believe his opponents aren't weak and pathetic, he might have to realize that he could lose - and he can't wrap his mind around that, can't even start any battle he doesn't believe he's already won.

This may well blow up on him; any Trump followers who aren't part of the core set that would literally vote for him after he shot someone in public, may wind up conceding points to Hillary. It'd only take one good soundbite to shift their loyalty, one moment where it looks like Hillary is the prepared candidate with a functional plan while Trump is stuck yelling his now-tired cliches.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:26 PM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

There are still quite a few "soft" Trump supporters out of his 43% (they're in the OTHER basket) and right now they're hearing "the media is expected to say Trump 'won' the debate". All things considered (NOT referring to the NPR show, please), he absolutely does runs the risk of 'falling below expectations'. Just grab your popcorn (I got a 40 oz megabag at Costco) and watch him as a performer. (Me, I've always considered him a horrendous performer and lose respect for any reviewer who 'appreciates' his performance, but then, I did a lot of eye-rolling over Rolling Stone's 100 Greatest TV Shows of All Time. but I digress.)
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:33 PM on September 22, 2016

Trump is like a bubble in the market. He can defy reality for a while, but eventually he will collapse. We just have to hope he pops before Election Day.
posted by humanfont at 2:33 PM on September 22, 2016 [14 favorites]

my great grandparents hid all their savings in the mattress during the G Depression.
all the money was eaten by rats
actually, what were rats doing in the mattress
maybe I don't have that story right
posted by angrycat at 2:39 PM on September 22, 2016 [23 favorites]

Is the argument that Trump's expectations for the debate are so low that "everyone knows" he'll exceed those expectations and be declared the winner, and thus the expectations are actually higher for Trump? Because that just makes my head hurt, and I know 2016's writers wouldn't push such a confusing narrative.
posted by zachlipton at 2:39 PM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

If enough people talk about how underrated a guy is, eventually he becomes overrated for being so underrated.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:41 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Bloxworth Snout: I thought this article about the Clinton Foundation was interesting as an explanation of how Bill Clinton used his celebrity and soft power as an ex-president to do good. Schmoozing for humanity.

While Donald used his foundation to buy pictures of himself, to put up in his resorts.

Bill and Hillary are the anti-Trumps.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:44 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Pence: "Trump and I believe there's been far too much talk about institutional bias and racism within law enforcement"...calls it "rhetoric of division."

How is that minority outreach going for you?
posted by Talez at 2:44 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Of all the heinous shit he did and said people the media decided to remember the time he said something perfectly reasonable and it's maddening.

FTFY, see also: Scream, Dean, The

Which is what's so wrong with L'il Chuckie Todd and Chris "Lie all you want, what am I, responsible?" Wallace. The MSM is eating the big one right now, right in front of us. This time in 2020 there'll just be Fox 'n Friends and 20,000 vlogs.

Fox 'n Friends! /jazzhands
posted by petebest at 2:45 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Some Texas College Republicans say "Nah," to Trump.
posted by emjaybee at 2:53 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

one of the key points Daisey raises is that people don't evaluate Trump as a politician but as a performer.

But that relies upon him controlling the stage. Which he did during the primary -- in part because most of the GOP contenders couldn't take him on directly because they were competing for the same electorate -- and what he does when he's at his rallies and stunt events.

I imagine that a lot of Team HRC's debate prep is about how to establish that Hillary isn't a bit-part player at a Trump Event, but that Trump is a gatecrasher at a presidential debate, like a farting clown at a solemn ceremony.

My bet is that the immediate takeaway from the gobshites is not going to be about winning or losing but "what the hell did we just see there?"
posted by holgate at 2:57 PM on September 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

What!? Literally the entire campaign has been made out of such soundbites.

Right, that's the exact opposite of reality. What actually happens is Republicans and R leaning Independents are looking for an excuse to vote for Trump / against Hillary. For a few weeks when Trump was imploding and Clinton mostly staying silent they couldn't find such an excuse and Clinton was up 10 points. But the second he became ever so slightly more disciplined and stuck to attacking the right targets (ie minorities who aren't Gold Star families) and Clinton had a sniffle they moved back to Trump en masse.

Unless the last thing Trump does before election day is upload a photograph of himself burning an American flag while wiping his... nose with the Constitution they will vote for him.
posted by Justinian at 2:58 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

One of my staunch Republican guy friends - who was a Kasich fan but has been a reluctant and bitter though still occasionally posting Trumpster because Hillary is of course even worse - just facebooked Clinton's Between Two Ferns and said "Hilarious!" and I honestly have no idea if it's because it's something Republicans would really find funny or if it's prelude to a #NeverTrump conversion. And I'm afraid to jinx it by asking.
posted by chris24 at 3:02 PM on September 22, 2016 [11 favorites]

The Daily Show and Colbert set the current standard for REAL reporting that the SOCALLEDREAL news media has abandoned, and as long as Real Stephen has a show, Seth Meyers cleans up after Fallon's messes and TDS veterans keep popping up all over, they are the important news media. Even Bill Maher is marginally better; I recommend watching a recording of his show Sunday Mornings instead of the other 'news' shows.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:02 PM on September 22, 2016

Having watched numerous news anchor-moderated TV debates over the years, I don't expect much of from Monday night's contretemps. Trump's people will have him reined in just enough to come across as merely smug and dismissive, rather than unhinged and idiotic. Clinton will no doubt perform well, but the structure of these so-called debates favors soundbite over substance, so it's likely she won't get much of an opportunity to display her (far) superior knowledge and political acumen.

I do hope, however, that whenever the occasion arises, she refers to Trump as a millionaire, rather than a billionaire. ("Lester, my opponent is a millionaire who is out of touch with the needs of the average American worker", etc.) Wealth insecurity is his kryptonite, after all.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:03 PM on September 22, 2016 [19 favorites]

Pretty much my interpretation of it - the swinging pills aren't feckless millenials or undecideds swinging from one side to the other, it's all the Republicans that thought he was unsalvagable coming around to him as his brand of politics gets normalized.

And make no mistake, all the #neverTrump-ers will vote for him when it comes to the crunch.
posted by Artw at 3:03 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

"I have recently proposed raising the estate tax on the very wealthiest citizens of our nation. But don't worry Donald, you won't have to pay more as it only affects billionaires."
posted by Justinian at 3:09 PM on September 22, 2016 [40 favorites]

And make no mistake, all the #neverTrump-ers will vote for him when it comes to the crunch.

well, not corb.
posted by you're a kitty! at 3:10 PM on September 22, 2016 [28 favorites]

Will the debate audience be allowed to make noise? I think historically the official presidential debates did not allow that, but I can't recall and all the primary debates allowed audience participation. If the audience has to stay silent, I wonder how Trump will act when he can't gauge the reaction of the crowd. Like, he could have some 'awesome' zinger that attacks Clinton, but if no one reacts and Clinton just stays cool and professional he might actually implode.
posted by melissasaurus at 3:10 PM on September 22, 2016 [10 favorites]

On the last Radio Free GOP, Paul Begala mentioned an ad his Super PAC was running that contrasted Trump with Reagan. Looks like there are two variations on that theme, a long one and a short one.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:13 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Holt will ask the audience to reserve their applause to the beginning and end of the debate. Whether or not they will abide by that request in this day and age is an open question.
posted by Justinian at 3:13 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Will the debate audience be allowed to make noise

Is there a way to stop it? I know the moderators attempt to shush people sometimes, but I doubt they'll kick anyone out.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:14 PM on September 22, 2016

Field Report from central Virginia

We're no longer getting 2 calls a day from Donald J. Trump warning us about violent [click]s. Now we're getting calls from Ivanka. She's calling on behalf of her father, Donald [click]. (I am choosing to believe that this sentence ends with "...Duck, that dashing bird around town.") This is a seaweather change from the GOP calls four years ago that unleashed the persuasive tones of one Pat Boone in an effort for us to go the full Romney.

Also, 2 years ago, my brother was still on the electoral rolls here, despite having (serially) registered to vote and actually voting in 3 different commonwealths/states in the two decades since he first registered to vote (including one with stringent rules about transferring a car from our commonwealth to their commonwealth involving lots of DMV to DMV communications), and him informing the election board he's moved at least twice.
posted by julen at 3:16 PM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

I have surgery scheduled for next Tuesday morning, which means I have to do the debate sober. Hope me metafilter, you're my only help!
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 3:21 PM on September 22, 2016 [19 favorites]

What!? Literally the entire campaign has been made out of such soundbites.

I can't think of any. I went looking; Google has some very nice Hillary quotes, but they're mostly not campaign quotes, nothing on par with "You're no Jack Kennedy" nor "Oh, there you go again." Or, since we haven't had debates yet, nothing as powerful as Michelle Obama's "I wake up every morning in a house built by slaves."

Clinton has terrific substance and great plans; she doesn't have much in the way of pithy soundbites beyond what she's already got on t-shirts. "Women's rights are human rights" is indeed such a quote - but it's not recent, and it's not a central focus of the campaign. To decisively win at the debate, she needs an opportunistic moment of putting Trump in his place, whether that's a simple fact-based rebuttal of some whopping lie, or calling him out on his drama.

Maybe he'll try to do the aloof-and-bored thing he did in the primary debates when it's her turn to talk, and at some point she'll ask him, "are you bored, Donald? Because you don't need to stick around if you're not interested."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:22 PM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

Holt will ask the audience to reserve their applause to the beginning and end of the debate. Whether or not they will abide by that request in this day and age is an open question.

Don't they make the audience 50% Democrat and 50% Republican?

In that case, the Democrats will abide by the request and the Republicans will chant "BUILD THAT WALL" or "MURDER HER" or whatever they're chanting by then.
posted by mmoncur at 3:25 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

ABC Reporter Asks Hillary Clinton Whether She'd Take Neurological Tests:

At about minute three in the video above, [ABC Action News reporter Sarina] Fazan turns away from talks about terrorists with this segue, “Last week you were remembering 9/11. I want to talk about your health for a moment.”

She goes on, “I know you provided documents saying that you are fit to serve as president of the United States,” BUT “would you be willing to take some neuro-cognitive tests.”

posted by kirkaracha at 3:27 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

> [click]

Can't you just put the phone down while keeping the call going, to run up their phone bill?
posted by farlukar at 3:29 PM on September 22, 2016

The California Official Voter Information Guide has just landed in my mailbox... all 224 pages, for whatever covers the entire state (no local-local candidates); 17 propositions, and 2 pages of candidate statements for the Senate seat up for grabs (both runoff candidates are Democrat, Female and POC... never been happier to have my choice limited). Two propositions about the Death Penalty, one banning it and one making it easier to carry out, and there are arguments for voting Yes for both of them. Marijuana legalization, drug prices for State purchases, condom use in Adult Films, and two propositions on shopping bags, one banning single-use plastic bags, another taxing sales of reusable bags for Wildlife Conservation. 105 pages are the actual Texts of Proposed Laws, but otherwise, this Information Guide should be a worthy replacement for the Terry Pratchett Discworld book I have for bathroom reading. Don't need any Mark-Burnett-Reality-Show characters to have an interesting election in California.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:31 PM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

She goes on, “I know you provided documents saying that you are fit to serve as president of the United States,” BUT “would you be willing to take some neuro-cognitive tests.”

Just to emphasize, the video is very much worth watching just for the resulting burst of laughter at that question.
posted by zachlipton at 3:32 PM on September 22, 2016 [12 favorites]

WaPo: Everyone was wrong. Trump isn’t reaching out to white moderates.

"Trump wasn’t trying to appeal to white moderates. He was appealing to the same white conservatives who have driven his presidential bid from the very beginning.

Trump’s “outreach” has been full of contempt and insults, demonstrating to his core supporters that the campaign of white nationalism that he has been running since last June, when he debuted his candidacy by calling Mexican immigrants rapists and criminals, has not changed a bit."
posted by chris24 at 3:36 PM on September 22, 2016 [12 favorites]

“I know you provided documents saying that you are fit to serve as president of the United States,” BUT “would you be willing to take some neuro-cognitive tests.”

Oh, that Zach Galifianakis! Loves me some Between Two Fe—

Wait. That was from a legitimate reporter?

*bangs head on desk*
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:36 PM on September 22, 2016 [34 favorites]

Good news! Evan McMullin Shares His Plans To Fight ISIS | MSNBC

Sounds like "more of the same, but better."
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:38 PM on September 22, 2016

Trump is dodging Birtherism questions by just repeating random platitudes about jobs

Trump asked about birtherism: "We're focusing jobs, right? Jobs everybody, jobs. We need jobs. We need a lot of things in this country."

posted by Talez at 3:39 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

oneswellfoop: we've got an additional 25 local ballot measures here in San Francisco, meaning a total of 42 damn propositions. That means we get the 224 page state information guide and a 313 page local information guide.

That said, the San Francisco voter guide is one of the better examples I've seen. Every local proposition gets a one-page summary written by a nonpartisian "Ballot Simplification Committee," complete with a clear "a yes vote means" and "a no vote means" statements, a fiscal analysis from the city controller, and pro/con arguments from interested parties. It's far from perfect (anything with 42 propositions is far from perfect), but it helps one make heads or tales out of such a long list of measures.
posted by zachlipton at 3:40 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

CA Voter Info Guide: http://voterguide.sos.ca.gov/pdf/complete-vig.pdf

If anyone would like a bookmarked version (it's 224 pages), just let me know.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:59 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

I know the moderators attempt to shush people sometimes, but I doubt they'll kick anyone out.

From the 2012 debates: "The audience here in the hall has agreed to be polite and attentive -- no cheering or booing or outbursts of any sort." As Justinian says, it's an open question how that'll bear out -- I expect one nimrod will fancy himself the big man early on with a "lock her up" chant.
posted by holgate at 4:00 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

actually, what were rats doing in the mattress
maybe I don't have that story right
posted by angrycat

Now we know why the cat is angry.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:00 PM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

The Dalai Lama does a brief impression of Trump. I'm hoping that it leads to a twitter spat with yet another popular leader of one of the world's religions.
posted by peeedro at 4:01 PM on September 22, 2016 [13 favorites]

An absolutely scathing anti-Trump editorial in The Observer (the paper owned by Trump's son-in-law) Trump’s Brand of Ugly Will Be the Ruin of Our Country

Truth should be important. His campaign is built on lies. His proposition is a series of lies. Americans should have a problem with that.

Each and every one of Trump’s surrogates are liars—morally vapid validators, town criers doing the dirty work of the village idiot. I don’t care how poised, slick or sleek some acting coach’s version of sophisticated they are. They push his lies in an attempt to normalize his message and persona, using the fascist technique of repetition equals truth.

Nowhere was this more visible than across the Sunday shows last weekend, during which Christie, Conway and Pence fanned out to do Trump’s bidding, magnifying his racist lies and capping off a five-year crusade to delegitimize our first black president. How embarrassing for them. How sick for us.

He goes on to call the campaign a "human stain."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:03 PM on September 22, 2016 [51 favorites]

Donald Trump’s puzzling appeal to black voters on Sean Hannity’s show, annotated
posted by kirkaracha at 4:05 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Piers Morgan is such an asshole, but the Dalai Lama is adorable in that clip.
posted by stolyarova at 4:05 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

So, the Trump campaign* has released a statement on the latest Anthony Weiner allegations. I hate everything about this election.

*candidate has been accused of rape on multiple occasions and is advised by multiple men who have been accused of multiple instances of sexual harassment and sexual violence
posted by melissasaurus at 4:05 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump, Jr. continues to spread sweetness and light.... Just kidding.

Trump Jr. Claims Children In Europe Are Being Raped By Migrants Daily

Trump Jr. was being interviewed on Facebook Live by a reporter for Salt Lake City’s local CBS affiliate when he made the allegation after being asked what he would say to citizens of Utah who were worried his father’s rhetoric on refugees.

“I think its an important thing, but I think we also have to be able to vet people who are coming in to our country,” Trump Jr. said, emphasizing the need for common sense policies.

“If you look at what’s happened in Europe as it relates to the migrant flows, you know, and you’re hearing about young children being raped daily, and you’re looking at countries that were very good and peaceful countries, the statistics are going through the roof in terms of those kind of attacks—we just have to be intelligent with what we’re doing,” he continued.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:08 PM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

well one good thing is I no longer have these debates in my head about which is the most loathsome Trump child
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:09 PM on September 22, 2016 [37 favorites]

Daniel Dale: Bobby Knight, introducing Trump in Pennsylvania, praises Joe Paterno, then says, "Donald Trump is not national. He's international."

Wow. So Joe Paterno is elevated to sainthood now. Funny how you can ignore child rape if sports are involved. Also Trump is "international" which means what? That he is not a White Nationalist but a White Internationalist?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:14 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

Can't you just put the phone down while keeping the call going, to run up their phone bill?

Back in the days of landlines, WATS lines, long distance, and 'reverse the charges', in the unlikely event my father answered the phone at home , if they said, "Sir, let me tell you about my product/ candidate/ issue", he'd say "Sure!", set the receiver down, and walk away. Bonus points if a Reds game was on the teevy, 'cause when they came up for air, that's what they'd hear from our end, the teevy in the next room. Ten or sixty minutes later when my mother would ask, "What's with the phone off the hook?" he'd say, "Guy said he wanted to talk about B-Dry/ Sen. Hornswoggle / the tax levy; so I let 'im."

At work, if some chicken officer's secretary called and said, "Hold please for Gen. Nuisance", he'd say "Sure!", put the phone on speaker, and go back to what he was doing. Soon: "H, this is Nuisance . . . H . . . H, are you there?" Then he'd pick up and say, "Oh, hello, General . . . "

Some of 'em got the message, some never did.
 
posted by Herodios at 4:15 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

NC Republican Congressman says Charlotte protestors “hate white people because white people are successful and they’re not.”

Yeah, Trump came out of nowhere.
posted by chris24 at 4:17 PM on September 22, 2016 [36 favorites]

The calls disengage after the message is complete. It goes to the dialtone and then to phone-is-off-the-hook warning. There's no value in letting it go on.
posted by julen at 4:22 PM on September 22, 2016

The Daily Beast: Donald Trump Jr. Is the Trump Campaign’s Worst Surrogate

There’s extremely stiff competition for the title of Worst Trump Surrogate. You’ve got Trump official campaign spokeswoman Katrina Pierson, who blamed Obama for the Afghanistan war.

And there’s Pastor Mark Burns, who tweeted a picture of Hillary Clinton in blackface and said Bernie Sanders doesn’t believe in God and needs Jesus.

There’s also Trump’s attorney, Michael Cohen, who once said spousal rape isn’t a thing.

And who can forget Trump veterans coalition co-chair Al Baldasaro, who said Hillary Clinton should be executed for treason?

But as luck would have it, Trump’s worst surrogate is in his very own family.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:24 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

On MSNBC, Donald Rumsfeld says of George H.W. Bush voting for Clinton: "He's up in years."

Rumsfeld is 84.
posted by chris24 at 4:25 PM on September 22, 2016 [10 favorites]

That was quite an editorial, Secret Life of Gravy. Thanks! After reading it, I'm wondering if there were consequences for his piece? in addition, I was glad that comments were not allowed. In the Observor, I don't think comments would have been kind.
posted by Silverstone at 4:26 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

NC Republican Congressman says Charlotte protestors “hate white people because white people are successful and they’re not.”

Man, the full quote is industrial grade.

So's the reaction from colleagues:

"Ashamed to have served with this fool "
-- Rep. Grier Martin

"I agree with you, Grier, and I'm afraid it wasn't a misquote."
-- Rep. Chuck McGrady

Pols don't usually talk like that about each other. They usually direct their comments to the statement itself, give the quotee room to backtrack / clarify.
 
posted by Herodios at 4:30 PM on September 22, 2016 [34 favorites]

"Donald Trump is not national. He's international."
I'm SO sorry, but it's irresistable: "You know who else was international?"

I still argue that Deplorable Donald is too self-centered to be a true "White Nationalist". He just found White Nationalists and other bigots to be the best people to make "his people" because they are stupid and gullible. Suckers for a second-rate con man. And that's why he hasn't 'pivoted' to appeal to moderates - that group is too smart for a second-rate con man.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:31 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Daniel Dale:

Donald Trump: People arguing that cops are a "racist force of our society," like Clinton, are directly responsible for the street unrest.

Donald Trump: "The problem is that there are not enough police."

Trump, again, on black and Hispanic communities: "You walk your child to a store and you end up getting shot, or your child gets shot."

Trump: If Hillary Clinton has really been fighting for women and children, why are 70 million women and children living in poverty?

Air tight logic there. One Senator should have ended all poverty in the United States on her own. I guess she is just a weakling who sleeps too much.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:32 PM on September 22, 2016 [12 favorites]

This is why I don't believe Hillary can "win" a debate, even if she wins a debate (or all three) -- "winning a debate" should mean swaying voters to your side. Can't happen if the people who are currently voting for your opponent aren't watching and won't hear any facts about the debate.

But they are talking Superbowl type numbers of viewers, so surely the undecideds, the third party fence-sitters and some 'looking for an excuse to vote against Trump' republicans will be tuned in.
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:32 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm SO sorry, but it's irresistable: "You know who else was international?"

Socialists of nearly all flavors, excepting National?
posted by LionIndex at 4:36 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

From the article Donald Trump Jr. Is the Trump Campaign’s Worst Surrogate:

He also sent out a tweet from science fiction author Theodore Beale, who, as the New Republic noted, once said being gay is a “birth defect” and who has said that “being a Jew makes you not an American, by definition.”

DTJ has retweeted Vox Day? How recently (and how did I miss that one)? That's... wow, yes, that's a terrific way to sink the campaign, or at least, get it embroiled in more online drama that can slowly work its way toward mainstream media recognition.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:36 PM on September 22, 2016 [13 favorites]

> Trump: If Hillary Clinton has really been fighting for women and children, why are 70 million women and children living in poverty?

Good thing all of Trumps supports are well educated in the schools of logical fallacys.

Also, by that reasoning, Trump should have already solved all these problems, why would he need to be President.
posted by mrzarquon at 4:36 PM on September 22, 2016

That was quite an editorial, Secret Life of Gravy. Thanks! After reading it, I'm wondering if there were consequences for his piece?

I had the same thought especially since the writer castigates the whole of the Trump campaign which would include Ivanka, "This campaign is a human stain. I hope, someday, their children will hold them accountable for the boundaries of engagement and civility that have been breached." You have to wonder if Kushner was given a heads up on this or if the editor has carte blanche..
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:42 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

So Latinos have been added to Trump's rally denigration--I mean "outreach."

Trump on black and Hispanic communities: "Tremendous levels of poverty, bad education, horrible jobs and no jobs. It doesn't get worse."
posted by chris24 at 4:42 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeeeesh, I was checking out the greatest TV shows thread and it reminded me of the Breaking Bad finale thread,...the anticipation,.. the speculation, ...the dread. You Americans really know how to amp up the drama in things.
posted by bonobothegreat at 4:42 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

“On the Democrat side we’ve got a known known,” [Rumsfeld] said with a Cheshire Cat-like grin as the interviewer joined in to laugh. “On the Republican side, we've got a known unknown. And the known known isn’t believable, has a record of not being believable. You can’t lead then, people aren’t going to follow.”

“Now, do you agree with the known unknown on the other side? No! But I’ve never agreed with everybody,” he continued.

Why MSNBC, or anyone, gives Rumsfeld a platform so he can joke about his lies that led us into a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people is inexplicable.

No, it's useful. If for some reason I were undecided, I'd feel safe betting on the opposite of Rumsfeld's choice.

There are some people in politics are who are wrong (everybody, to some extent). I'd put, say, Mitt Romney in that category. There are some actors who there's something deeper wrong with. Based on a combination of his apparent self-satisfaction and how his choices have turned out (plus a dose of the documentary The Unknown Known), my general bet with that guy is that he's in the later category.
posted by wildblueyonder at 4:45 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

I decided to not drink through September. I'm currently wondering if I should make an exception for the 26th, or just turn off media and read a book, and then check here to see if I should then drink after the debate is over.
posted by mrzarquon at 4:45 PM on September 22, 2016

Germany's own nationalists are polling higher than ever.

Looks like we're reverting back to tribalism now. It was a nice 71 years.
posted by Talez at 4:48 PM on September 22, 2016 [22 favorites]

So you know how the Trump Campaign has given Trump businesses over $8 million so far of campaign money? Turns out they were not the only ones to give money to Trump businesses.

Trump received $1.6 million from Secret Service

Federal Election Commission records show that the U.S. Secret Service has paid the Trump campaign about $1.6 million to cover the cost of flying its agents with the candidate on a plane owned and operated by one of his companies.

It’s standard practice for the agency — which is tasked with protecting presidential candidates as well as presidents and other federal officials — to reimburse presidential campaigns for the cost of traveling with the candidates.

In fact, the Secret Service has reimbursed the Clinton campaign, too: $2.6 million so far this cycle.

The difference with Trump is that one of his companies, TAG Air, Inc., owns the plane, so the government is effectively paying him.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:49 PM on September 22, 2016 [22 favorites]

Ali Vitali: Trump on Clinton: "she doesn’t understand democracy. You might think she does, but she doesn’t."

Yeah, you would think a woman with a law degree who has been in and around government for 30 years would have a grasp on democracy and understand things like the Constitution, the responsibilities of the POTUS, the three branches of government, the history of the United States, and how a bill becomes a law. Among other things.

I wonder, though, if she might be able to take on a know-nothing dickweed with fluff for brain and whip his ass in a quiz on democracy. The Dickweed might want to start by at least trying to read the US Constitution.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:01 PM on September 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

{had the novelty staff on this for the candy narrative, feel free to steal}

Air 😬 Heads- Bites:
Now with White Mystery.
posted by clavdivs at 5:03 PM on September 22, 2016

The Dickweed might want to start by at least trying to read the US Constitution.

Given the way he treated the last guy, I doubt anyone has offered to loan him copy lately.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:09 PM on September 22, 2016 [17 favorites]

The difference with Trump is that one of his companies, TAG Air, Inc., owns the plane, so the government is effectively paying him.

People act as though Trump is stupid. He isn't; he's at least a good deal smarter than his highly-educated opponents for the Republican nomination, and I would argue that he's smarter than most of the people he's done business with.

This is a very restricted value of intelligence, of course, but aren't they all? We don't denigrate wolves for their inability to burrow, or snakes for being unable to construct webs. In Trump's chosen field – bullying, swindling, and extortion – Donald Trump is some kind of genius.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:21 PM on September 22, 2016 [38 favorites]

I think, in this case, SLoG meant Ali, rather than Hillary's opponent. Although, it's easy to confuse your dickweeds without a player's guide at this point.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:21 PM on September 22, 2016

what? what did Ali Vitali do to be called a dickweed?
posted by zutalors! at 5:26 PM on September 22, 2016

one of his companies, TAG Air, Inc., owns the plane, so the government is effectively paying him.

well it's ok, i'm sure they are cutting the checks to the foundation.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:27 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

No, I stand corrected. Church was right, I was wrong. I misread. However, my point about needing an advanced players guide still stands.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:32 PM on September 22, 2016

Trump went again to 'One God.'

Trump calls for "one nation under one God serving one American flag."
posted by chris24 at 5:42 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

He knows exactly what he's saying.
posted by defenestration at 5:44 PM on September 22, 2016 [11 favorites]

I'm scared.
posted by schmod at 5:44 PM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

Next year he'll be one has-been under one awning serving one McFlurry.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:48 PM on September 22, 2016 [10 favorites]

(Hurry up with that audit, fellas!)
posted by Sys Rq at 5:49 PM on September 22, 2016 [15 favorites]

It’s standard practice for the agency — which is tasked with protecting presidential candidates as well as presidents and other federal officials — to reimburse presidential campaigns for the cost of traveling with the candidates.

Why? It's not like they're booking commercial flights. As Fred and Ethel successfully argued when when trying to hitch a ride with Lucy and Ricky driving out to California, the back seat is going wherever the front seat is going.

Millennial outreach is not my strong point.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:53 PM on September 22, 2016 [11 favorites]

I didn't think it was possible to hate Bobby Knight more than I already did, but he managed to find a way.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:54 PM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

Trump calls for "one nation under one God serving one American flag."

The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for giving to Mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens.

Now I forget, can someone remind me which godless hippie wrote that tripe?
posted by Talez at 5:54 PM on September 22, 2016 [13 favorites]

Glenn Reynolds offered an "apology" to save his USA Today column.

But on his own site he was in full victimhood mode, as expected. No apology.
Links to Twitter to avoid linking directly to hate speech.

"I'm sorry, when I said 'run them down', I meant 'don't run them down dirve around them carefully' *wink*"

Dean of Tennessee Law School
Office of the President
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:00 PM on September 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

This Pew Center report is... something.

The printed comments from Trump supporters about what they're most concerned about with him are really a contrast with the Clinton supporters. The Clinton supporters comments basically boil down to, "Some people say she's untrustworthy idk that is probably nonsense, I think she's fine." With Trump there's a quite a bit of "This dude is a nutjob and acts like a toddler" and I just.... why are you voting for him then? Stay home if you can't bring yourself to pull a D lever. Stop this insanity! By the numbers 34% of his supporters are concerned about his temperament, a way bigger percentage than are concerned about any of his other traits (uhhh how about the racism, guys?) and also a way bigger percentage than any Clinton supporters are worried about anything at all about her. LISTEN TO YOUR GUTS, 34% PEOPLE!
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:05 PM on September 22, 2016 [12 favorites]

MOOK: The Guardian says you need a slogan.
CLINTON: "Life's Complicated, You Reductive Fucking Shitbirds."
MOOK:
CLINTON: Slap that on a hat
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:16 PM on September 22, 2016 [65 favorites]

By the numbers 34% of his supporters are concerned about his temperament

I think this is a good sign. It seems like a lot of people here are seeing what Trump's doing lately and panicking because he's creating a lot of heat and light in the media and it's building hype around him again. I'm seeing something different, myself, though. I'm seeing another go-round of what has been Trump's cycle this whole time: a new advisor reigns him in and it all goes swimmingly and he seems like a world beater until something happens and for whatever reason, he loses a little faith in the new team. (As an aside, I see Trump as basically Lumburgh with worse hair, so in the spirit of worst bosses ever, everywhere, I can't help but think he is constantly finding new ways to feel betrayed/let down/disappointed with anyone who works for him.) This inspires a dumb statement, then he gets attacked, then he doubles down. While this happens, his core is going nuts, they're getting non-stop read meat, they're out in force everywhere, but it's basically the same group of people he had before. As he progresses deeper into the cycle with his latest team, his temperament is going to look worse and worse.
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:20 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

chris24: "Trump calls for "one nation under one God serving one American flag.""

Can that god be Flidias? 'Cause I think she'd be good for the US.
posted by Mitheral at 6:20 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Glenn Reynolds offered an "apology" to save his USA Today column.

Glenn Harlan Reynolds, a law professor at the University of Tennessee who tweets as @instapundit,

NOT THIS WEEK.
posted by Talez at 6:21 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

@onlxn's Clinton needs to be in there more. She's as great as Onion Biden.
posted by Cookiebastard at 6:23 PM on September 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

The founder of Oculus, who turned Kickstarter pledges into kajillions from Facebook, is spending his money on a shitposting, hashtag-jacking pro-Trump PAC in collaboration with Reddit's Trumpers.
posted by holgate at 6:26 PM on September 22, 2016 [17 favorites]

Trump's support is basically a strong core of white nationalists surrounded by a vast sea of people that have been told for ages that liberals are evil and Clinton is the archdevil.

Basically his entire campaign is predicated on at least 50% of the electorate being blind to his faults. Hopefully most Americans are smarter and less tribal than that.
posted by vuron at 6:31 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

Techbros gonna techbro Holgate.

I don't know what it is that makes so many people in tech so reactionary but holy fuck can they be annoying
posted by vuron at 6:34 PM on September 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

500 Million Yahoo accounts hacked by "state-sponsored" hacktor

Hey Pootz and/or Michael S. Rogers, I can haz my spam from '98?

related cause Trump asked Pootz to do it. Sort of.
posted by petebest at 6:35 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Maddow reporting that Democrats have an 8-point lead in early ballots in North Carolina, as of today. 4,000 votes cast so far.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:38 PM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

The founder of Oculus, who turned Kickstarter pledges into kajillions from Facebook, is spending his money on a shitposting, hashtag-jacking pro-Trump PAC in collaboration with Reddit's Trumpers.

That's not entirely accurate. the_donald actually smelled a rat. Nobody's name was on it because Lucky wanted to remain anonymous. They said it had been in development for months despite the site looking like a rushed homework assignment for a 4th grader. They tracked down the address to a strip mall in CT despite a CA phone number. It was registered as a charity, not a PAC, which is a giant red flag.

There was a giant shitstom over the whole affair. Milo was demodded from the_donald, TehDonald stepped down as a moderator, sub was in complete chaos for days.

And, to top it all off, I ran out of popcorn during the whole fucking affair.

But yeah, even Reddit Trumpers weren't willing to get in bed with Palmer Luckey.
posted by Talez at 6:38 PM on September 22, 2016 [14 favorites]

Waaaaaiiiiit..... in early voting states they actually start reporting the results when voting starts?

Or is this exit polling? Or?
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:39 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think, in this case, SLoG meant Ali, rather than Hillary's opponent. Although, it's easy to confuse your dickweeds without a player's guide at this point.

I did say "whip his ass" and Ali is a woman. But I apologize for not making my comments more clear. There is no universal style preferred on MetaFilter yet for quoting tweets. I personally prefer "name with hyperlink: bold quote." But if that isn't clear enough I can change. I'll start putting the @ in front of the name so that you know it is a tweet. In this case it would be

@AliVitali: Trump on Clinton: "she doesn’t understand democracy. You might think she does, but she doesn’t."

It is Trump denigrating Clinton and calling her knowledge into question when he is a total dickweed with fluff for brains.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:39 PM on September 22, 2016

Talez, can you explain how any of the details you shared make that statement inaccurate? I don't understand.
posted by defenestration at 6:42 PM on September 22, 2016

Talez, can you explain how any of the details you shared make that statement inaccurate? I don't understand.

It wasn't in collaboration with Reddit's Trumpers. They're not touching Nimble PAC with a 40 foot barge pole.
posted by Talez at 6:44 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh OK, just that it isn't a PAC I guess.

edit: I get it now, thanks for explaining.
posted by defenestration at 6:44 PM on September 22, 2016

Meanwhile, if you're a 15 year old (black) girl involved in a traffic accident on your bike, this is your world.

Female peppersprayed. Mark it on the sheet.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:45 PM on September 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

I don't know what it is that makes so many people in tech so reactionary

Engineers' syndrome plus millions of dollars plus dystopian technocorporate SF as "kinda neat".

(and Talez's clarifications are right, so I stand corrected there.)
posted by holgate at 6:47 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

I was frankly amazed they could spot it. Nobody on the sub gave a shit about Milo's other charity scam.

I'm not sure if he scammed KiA with that one. I wasn't really paying any attention to the sub when Milo would have been running the scam.
posted by Talez at 6:51 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump calls for "one nation under one God serving one American flag."

Does the German press start to translate Trump's speeches and scream WE CAN'T PRINT THIS!?
posted by delfin at 6:53 PM on September 22, 2016 [35 favorites]

Lucky has been bankrolling that sociopath Milo?

Well, guess my Facebook account is about to disappear.
posted by Yowser at 6:55 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Since we're discussing Palmer Luckey, I would like to direct you all to my absolute masterpiece of a comment in the now-deleted FPP on the subject.

Carry on.
posted by duffell at 6:55 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Lucky has been bankrolling that sociopath Milo?

I don't think so. Milo has his own fucked up bankrolling scandal which is way more interesting than "Silicon Valley billionaire giving alt-right money for the lulz".
posted by Talez at 6:58 PM on September 22, 2016

Also, I spend way too much time reading about horrible people for the sake of being current on horrible people.
posted by Talez at 6:59 PM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump received $1.6 million from Secret Service

Of course, I don't make the profit. The foundation makes the profit. And everybody has a share.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:59 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump calls for "one nation under one God serving one American flag."

...und ein Führer.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:05 PM on September 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

Silver thread, Owen Ellickson:

(cheers) RYAN: Rally?
TRUMP: Yep. Bobby Knight's introducing me. I had him praise Paterno.
RYAN: Why?
TRUMP: Just seeing if there's a bottom



'He won 900 games. That's called a winner. We like winners,' Trump saidl (Warning: DailyMail)
posted by petebest at 7:10 PM on September 22, 2016 [16 favorites]

I don't think so. Milo has his own fucked up bankrolling scandal

...wait, wat.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:10 PM on September 22, 2016

At least this time when he praised Paterno he didn't also do it in the home of Penn State's biggest football rival.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:17 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

I am still debating whether or not nerf guns will be allowed.

omg ur trampling 2nd amednment nerf rights
posted by um at 7:28 PM on September 22, 2016 [10 favorites]

Trump stopped to get a cheesesteak in Philly today, and of course he chose Geno's, known for its racist asshole owners who put anti-immigrant signs up in the window.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:36 PM on September 22, 2016 [19 favorites]

The Abnormalization of Hillary Clinton:

The ongoing normalization of Trump is the most disorienting development of the presidential campaign, but the most significant may be the abnormalization of Clinton.

The news media’s obsession with the emails has, without necessarily intending to do so, conveyed the impression that Clinton committed not just run-of-the-mill political scandals but extraordinary offenses of a historic scale.

posted by kirkaracha at 7:38 PM on September 22, 2016 [22 favorites]

reading about horrible people for the sake of being current on horrible people

That way lies Madness and Despair. And a Sickness Unto Death, also. And hives.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:39 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

And now I know that Palmer Luckey's girlfriend is a Trump supporter too.

What have you wraught, Talez?
posted by Yowser at 7:42 PM on September 22, 2016

Sorry.
posted by Talez at 7:49 PM on September 22, 2016

Santorum advising Trump

I guess if you're going to embrace the whole deplorable thing you shouldn't half-ass it.
posted by strange chain at 7:54 PM on September 22, 2016 [25 favorites]

To make it up to you all how about a story about Junior's exploits on hunting message boards?
posted by Talez at 7:55 PM on September 22, 2016 [10 favorites]

Of course that fucker hunted down a rare goat, what a fucking test of will and bravery. He's pure Safari Club International and again, I wish I believed in hell so the fucker could burn in it for eternity.
posted by holgate at 8:03 PM on September 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

I swear I read that twice and both times thought it said Saruman advising Trump. I had to click on it and see the actual article before my brain started working again. I need a break from these threads.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 8:05 PM on September 22, 2016 [11 favorites]

weretable, I have LOTR on the brain, too - blaming Peter Thiel and his Palantir [real].
posted by stolyarova at 8:10 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Palantir [real]

It was a natural progression from Homeland Security's program, "If You Scry Something, Say Something."
posted by knuckle tattoos at 8:27 PM on September 22, 2016 [15 favorites]

Is Donald Trump Jr. Patrick Bateman or is it Eric? I think it's DJTjr.
posted by Justinian at 8:30 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Junior is Bateman, except with added shitposting.

(Or Sonny. Eric is Fredo, Ivanka is Michael.)
(Or GOB. Eric is Buster, Ivanka is Michael.)
posted by holgate at 8:33 PM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

Eric spends his free time posting vore on 4chan. Donald Jr. owns an H H Holmes death hotel in Thailand
posted by theodolite at 8:34 PM on September 22, 2016 [15 favorites]

DJT Jr. is Patrick Bateman. Eric is a sad vampire.
posted by stolyarova at 8:34 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

I swear I read that twice and both times thought it said Saruman advising Trump. I had to click on it and see the actual article before my brain started working again. I need a break from these threads.

It's the deep breath before the plunge.
posted by nubs at 8:36 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Eric gives weird presents to girls he's never actually spoken to. Donald Jr. strangled the last snow leopard ever
posted by theodolite at 8:38 PM on September 22, 2016 [12 favorites]

Tiffany is Michael, but if he actually went to Arizona. Ivanka is Lindsey.
posted by melissasaurus at 8:40 PM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

Ivanka seems more competent than Lindsey. Ivanka is like an eviler Michael.
posted by Justinian at 8:46 PM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Engineers' syndrome plus millions of dollars plus dystopian technocorporate SF as "kinda neat".

I think that gamers are largely socialized by packs of young men online.
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:47 PM on September 22, 2016

Eric fantasizes about building a hotel with cameras hidden in every room. Donald Jr fantasizes about he and his friends hunting The Most Dangerous Game.
posted by um at 8:51 PM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

In other news, Mark Cuban just got a front-row seat for Monday's debate. He intends to rustle Trump's jimmies with his presence.
posted by stolyarova at 8:53 PM on September 22, 2016 [40 favorites]

I don't know what it is that makes so many people in tech so reactionary...

Not understanding the difference between smart and lucky.
posted by bongo_x at 8:54 PM on September 22, 2016 [36 favorites]

Hey if you add Mark Cuban and Donald Trump's net worth it is like 3.5 billion dollars.
posted by Justinian at 8:56 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Because Mark Cuban himself is worth 3.5 million dollars?
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:58 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Mark Cuban is horrible, and up until today I did not believe there was a single situation in which his presence would actually be an improvement. Yet I do believe he has found his purpose in life, to sit in the front row of Monday's debate, and just hope this in no way further boosts his ego and/or popularity or otherwise causes anybody else to pay attention to him ever again.
posted by zachlipton at 8:59 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

He intends to rustle Trump's jimmies with his presence.

stolyarova, that's a glorious sentence.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 9:00 PM on September 22, 2016 [15 favorites]

No, Cuban is only worth 3.4 billion. I figure Trump might be worth 100million. He was getting paid a ton for the Apprentice stuff.
posted by Justinian at 9:05 PM on September 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Welp. At least this election cannot get any worse.

Right? Please? !!!
posted by mazola at 9:06 PM on September 22, 2016

Waaaaaiiiiit..... in early voting states they actually start reporting the results when voting starts? Or is this exit polling? Or?

Whether or not you have voted, but not the content of your vote, is a public record. In many states they also know if you are registered as a Democrat or Republican. So in near real time you can determine if more registered Democrats or Republicans have voted.

This information is used for get-out-the-vote efforts. On election day if they see you haven't voted yet, they will call you up to get you to the poll. The campaigns will have poll observers that will key your name into a phone app as you sign in for your ballot in real time and check against their database of party voters.
posted by JackFlash at 9:07 PM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

Right, we don't know that Clinton is winning early ballots by 8 points. We only know that Democrats have cast 8% more of the early voting ballots than Republicans have.
posted by Justinian at 9:14 PM on September 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

And early voting typically favors Democrats (one reason why Republicans often work against it, especially in heavily African-American districts).
posted by Superplin at 9:26 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Clinton should refer to Trump as a millionaire (not a billionaire) during the debate. How much money he has was the only thing off-limits at Comedy Central's 2011 Trump roast.

Here's a rundown of what was allowed and not allowed:

ALLOWED: Jokes about Trump's hair
ALLOWED: Jokes about Trump's wife Melania (and his two previous marriages)
ALLOWED: Jokes about Trump having sex with models
ALLOWED: Jokes about the failure of Trump Steaks, Trump Water, Trump Cologne, and other Trump products
ALLOWED: Jokes about Trump's failed casinos
ALLOWED: Jokes about how Trump only became successful thanks to his wealthy father
ALLOWED: Jokes about Trump's weight
ALLOWED: Jokes about Trump being attracted to his daughter Ivanka
NOT ALLOWED: Any joke that suggests Trump is not actually as wealthy as he claims to be

There wasn't an approved list of topics but the allowed jokes were made at the roast and only jokes about Trump not being as wealthy as he claims were off-limits.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:31 PM on September 22, 2016 [11 favorites]

I really hope she does it. And that if Trump gets all offended about it, that she follows up with, "Oh, I'm sorry. If only you had released your tax returns, then we'd know once and for all if you're a real billionaire like my friend Mark over there."
posted by yasaman at 9:38 PM on September 22, 2016 [20 favorites]

Is it possible that the mass media, especially non-journalistic sources like the late night shows, is also following this unspoken rule? I feel like I hear a lot about how Melania is an illegal immigrant tramp, Trump wants to fuck his daughter, Trump's companies are failures, etc. but everybody stays pretty quiet about Trump's supposed mega-rich status. Maybe the especially edgy comedians like John Oliver and Samantha Bee? Even then, they spend a lot more time on your approved list of topics.
posted by Sara C. at 9:39 PM on September 22, 2016

In other news, Mark Cuban just got a front-row seat for Monday's debate. He intends to rustle Trump's jimmies with his presence.

Nope. Jimmy rustling is specifically prohibited per the terms of the agreement you sign to sit at a debate.
posted by indubitable at 9:56 PM on September 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

early voting typically favors Democrats (one reason why Republicans often work against it)

In NC at least: early in-person voting is historically a big thing for Democrats. Early absentee postal voting less so. However, I think there's a push this time round to bank postal votes because of the uncertainty around in-person early voting rules.

(NC anecdata: people old enough to remember WW2 think Trump is a scary crazy person. I think there's going to be a demographic schism between those in their eighties and those in their sixties.)
posted by holgate at 10:21 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Abnormalization of Hillary Clinton:

And this piece is Exhibit A in "Why Jon Chait Can Kindly Go Fuck Himself". Because for all of the pontification and handwringing over how horrible it is that the media has been rendering Clinton to be a sort of abnormality, there is a very clear omission in it of the simple fact that its author has, for the past year, been one of the very people leading that charge. He was one of the people pushing for the closure of the Clinton Foundation because of the "appearance of impropriety", as well as one of the liberal handwringers over the emails.

So no, I don't want to hear from Chait about how the media is warping the record on Clinton without him first apologizing for his own actions in doing so.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:46 PM on September 22, 2016 [23 favorites]

On Soviet NBC, Jimmy rustles you!
posted by Sys Rq at 10:49 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

I've been repeatedly struck by the tendency - both here on MetaFilter but much more often elsewhere - to hyper-focus on Clinton's real or imagined shortcomings whilst being silent on Trump. The strange thing is, when called on it the people who engage in this behavior readily admit that Trump is worse in comparison on every single axis, but that his faults are so apparent for all to see that there's no point in calling them out: they'd just be stating the obvious.

I'm like, huh? Trump is somehow beneath consideration whereas Clinton is a worthy opponent? Must be nice to have so little stake in the election that you're comfortable wasting everyone's time with Jesuitical hair-splitting. As the Dread Pirate Roberts put it, truly you have a dizzying intellect.
posted by um at 11:01 PM on September 22, 2016 [19 favorites]

From here on Mark Cuban:

A Clinton aide later confirmed that Cuban was, in fact, invited by the Clinton campaign.
"He has the best seat we have access to," the aide said.

This is pretty good trolling from the Clinton campaign. I wonder who else they invited for the front row. Kzir Kahn? That journalist Trump is still mad at for saying he has small hands? The possibilities are endless.
posted by mmoncur at 11:48 PM on September 22, 2016 [38 favorites]

Kzir Kahn would be one thing, but the truly epic troll would be Ghazala Khan and her penetrating stare of death.
posted by zachlipton at 11:51 PM on September 22, 2016 [58 favorites]

How about, all Clinton supporters in the audience wear the giant "We're #1!" foam hands, or Hulk hands.
posted by XMLicious at 11:57 PM on September 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

Really just a front row of Clinton supporters with more confirmed net worth than Donald will be enough to get him to start sweating. Dude probably hates not being the richest person in the room.
posted by PenDevil at 12:08 AM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

Unless something's changed, the audience won't be visible from the stage for the first and third debates, if we make it to 3. As described on the CPD's website, the format is the same as 2012 and you can check the videos, the audience is only visible in the 2nd debate which is the townhall format one. It wouldn't surprise me if they've changed but I didn't see anything to that effect. The lights are probably up until it starts, though, so Cuban will still likely be visible. I'm not sure if it'll rattle Trump, but I have been thinking a lot about how the majority of his media experience comes with the ability to do a retake and this is unquestionably the biggest debate and in general the biggest public moment of his life so far. That thought can be enough to rattle a person, Mark Cuban notwithstanding.
posted by feloniousmonk at 12:11 AM on September 23, 2016

So the zinger isn't "bless your heart" but it's "he choked a bit on that one"?
posted by bukvich at 12:22 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

BuzzFeed: How A Decision In May Changed The General Election

It’s hard to remember now, but Hillary Clinton once cast Donald Trump as the product of same old Republican extremism Democrats always talk about. Four months ago, her campaign blew it all up, arguing that Trump isn’t like any other Republican, distancing policy and partisanship from Clinton’s message, and dragging Democrats along.

Interesting piece on the Clinton campaign's rhetorical shift after wrapping up the nomination, and the implications it may have for downticket races.
posted by cobra_high_tigers at 12:44 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Journalism based on gossip or rumours is a form of “terrorism” and media that stereotype entire populations or foment fear of migrants are acting destructively, Pope Francis has said.
posted by XMLicious at 12:52 AM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]

Liberals Have Failed to Teach Millennials About the Horror of George W. Bush

I don't think they could. As the parent and teacher of millennials , I think the big issue here is that they do not remember the 90's. Of course they don't. But that means that when I tell them about how Bush and Cheney and their vassals did, their response is often blah. It's not that they see the 00's as good, more that they don't remember them as bad. They were at school, they did what all kids do, they went on holidays and camps, they went to the pool after school, they chewed gum, watched videos. Was something wrong with the world? Maybe, but they didn't feel it. Their parents maybe did, but those parents did what they could to protect their kids from evil.
For those kids whose parents jumped on to the whole loan circus-wagon, the 00's may even have been a time of plenty, ending inexplicably with a crash and less fortunate circumstances.
I can explain how Republican and conservative policies have led to the rise of Islamic terrorism, and they will mostly trust me on that, but it is all ancient history, not something lived and experienced. I meet a lot of young people who's actual experiences are insecurity and doubt, and rising costs of education and housing.
posted by mumimor at 1:07 AM on September 23, 2016 [22 favorites]

Watching young voters today about to make the same damn mistake people my age made 16 years ago is like a slow motion trainwreck. STOOOOP. THE TRAIN IS COMING.
posted by Justinian at 1:49 AM on September 23, 2016 [37 favorites]

Has the new AP poll been posted yet? I don't see it. In any case the AP just came out with a national likely voter poll; Clinton +6 in both the 2-way and 4-way. Conducted 9/15 and 9/16, MoE 2.5. Matches the NBC WSJ poll fairly closely which is a good sign.
posted by Justinian at 1:54 AM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]

Omarosa Manigault: ‘Every Critic, Every Detractor, Will Have To Bow Down To President Trump’ [Real]
posted by mumimor at 2:31 AM on September 23, 2016 [14 favorites]

Mommy! Can we go home now? That person is scaring me.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:46 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Has the new AP poll been posted yet? I don't see it. In any case the AP just came out with a national likely voter poll; Clinton +6 in both the 2-way and 4-way. Conducted 9/15 and 9/16, MoE 2.5. Matches the NBC WSJ poll fairly closely which is a good sign.

What's the JCPL right now?
posted by Elementary Penguin at 2:48 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Still moderate! Analysts don't forecast much movement until the debate. But futures are all over the place. Volatility is expected to be high during the post-debate spin sessions.
posted by Justinian at 2:51 AM on September 23, 2016 [16 favorites]

Now, I haven't seen all of the DJT CC roast (had to nope out, not my cup of tea) and I have never for whatever reason sat down and tried to think of a joke about "having sex with models" and I'm still like ?????.

I mean, okay, I dated somebody who was a model like a couple of years after I graduated from school without having being asked to prom, and so, it was ridiculous, because so much of the attraction to this guy was like You're beautiful! How can you be with me! Don't you see that I'm icky? Okay, you're gonna be a jerk now, but you're pretty! And you're dating me! WEEEEEEEE.

I mean that just sounds like a horribly depressing movie.

I suspect that the jokes would be about THE MODELS rather than DJT, a la, *heh heh, he once fucked this girl who couldn't distinguish thread from tapioca pudding but she was a model so he didn't care*

anyway, why the hell have i thought so much about this.
posted by angrycat at 3:19 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

My own JCPL is at least moderate right now because, as Josh Marshall says, I can’t think of three positive reasons why the average voter would support Clinton. She does have that peristent habit of falling back into 33 proposals and safe language, but nothing pithy. What is her candidacy about? What can we visualize? She can't really promise to take on the bankers or the 1%, or to rein in corporate power; populist anger isn't her thing. But what is her thing?

I felt like, visually speaking, the DNC was very strong: a genuine cross-section of America, under the banner of "stronger together." But now that she's more on her own she looks a little lost. There's no theme here.

I actually think a lot of Trump's ideas make a huge number of people uneasy. He's very unpopular, by major-party-candidate standards. But even bad ideas simply stated have a certain advantage over a corporate mishmash.
posted by argybarg at 4:26 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

as Josh Marshall says

That's John Judis, who now does occasional posts for TPM in the role of "person who says something quite different from Josh Marshall, usually more conventional-wisdomy."
posted by holgate at 4:34 AM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

Argybarg - have three reasons off the top of my head.

1. She supported the Zadroga Act, which suggests that she sees people who serve the country as people who need to be cared for instead of just as props for "Yay 'Murica" sound bites.

2. She is the candidate with the most actual political experience.

3. She has withstood excoriating critique for 20+ years just for being a woman, without losing her temper or lashing out or crumpling into a heap. The pressure of the presidency would by comparison be a fucking cakewalk.

How's that?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:34 AM on September 23, 2016 [34 favorites]

We must be living in separate pocket universes, argybarg. I can think of a dozen reasons why an average person should want to vote for her. The media trends top not talk about any of them because oooh shiny over there! But I'm really not sure what she can do about that other than stripping topless and running down 5th Avenue.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:38 AM on September 23, 2016 [28 favorites]

The Rogue Doctors Spreading Right-Wing Rumors About Hillary’s Health

"Instead, Orient and the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, or AAPS, have been unabashedly anti-Clinton for decades. Contrary to its official-sounding name, the AAPS does not represent hundreds of thousands of physicians like, say, the American Medical Association does. Instead, the small non-profit based out of a medical park in Tucson represents a niche group of fewer than 5,000 members, not all of whom are doctors. While it claims to be non-partisan, even Orient admits the group has a guiding “philosophy,” one that just so happens to correlate with conservative politics on every issue from vaccine mandates to abortion rights to immigration."
posted by madamjujujive at 4:45 AM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

I thought of a fourth reason - she supports a public health option.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:46 AM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]

Maybe it has to do with how one defines "average voter"?

1. build a more inclusive society - where all Americans have real equal rights

2. extend access to health care

2. extend access to education

Each of these three will lead to many more improvements of society, for everyone
posted by mumimor at 4:47 AM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]

Holgate: good catch.

EmpressCallipygos: Those are more "why her," or "why her and not him." That's important, but not quite the answer to: so what is the idea of your candidacy? Democrats have anways struggled with that, because we like nuance and flexibility and seeing many sides, whereas Republicans at least flirt with WE SHALL BUILD A WALL WITH THE BONES OF OUR ENEMIES, and this year it's not even "flirt."

But that doesn't get her, or us, off the hook: What is her thesis statement? What does she want to do? And the answer can't be: I want to do the 33 things on my website.

Anyway, Judis does a better job than I can of expressing this concern.
posted by argybarg at 4:47 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Powerful new TV ad from the Clinton campaign.
posted by Westringia F. at 4:50 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

I keep thinking about how, during the aughts, when people compared Bush to Hitler my reaction would be along the lines *yes the man's a failure but come on* and now like EVERY FUCKING DAY I wrestle with the decision to turn on NPR and I don't because (I think) a) I cannot stand the voice of New Hitler and b) I am very angry at NPR for not doing a better job of dealing with New Hilter.

Like, I'm older now. I should be less excitable now, unless there is somebody standing on my lawn, I guess.

So right now Clinton is Not Hitler and you know what? It's too bad, because the woman deserves to shine on her own merits, not merely because it's her or watch your country burn, choose.
posted by angrycat at 4:50 AM on September 23, 2016 [29 favorites]

Conservatives have worked hard to create a thought bubble in most other fields by more or less creating captive set of scientists, economists, etc by funding their research and creating chairs and what not I guess that it stands to reason that conservatives have created a parallel medical association that is willing to prostrate itself to support conservative agendas.

To my knowledge there is as of yet no liberal dentist association (dentists tend to be obnoxiously conservative in most locations).
posted by vuron at 4:52 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

New Marist/McClatchy poll of likely voters out this morning that is in line with the AP and NBC/WSJ polls of the last day or so.

2Way
Clinton 48% (+7)
Trump 41%

4Way
Clinton 45% (+6)
Trump 39%
posted by chris24 at 5:05 AM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

Politico's headline for that poll is "Clinton's lead over Trump narrows nationwide" because their previous poll showed an even bigger lead for Clinton. But that's kind of a bullshitty misleading headline given the trends over the past few weeks.

Seriously, if all you read was "Clinton's lead over Trump narrows nationwide" would you think the poll was showing +7 for Clinton?
posted by Justinian at 5:09 AM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah, how about "Clinton's lead narrows from huge landslide to landslide."
posted by chris24 at 5:12 AM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

Seriously, if all you read was "Clinton's lead over Trump narrows nationwide" would you think the poll was showing +7 for Clinton?

A good example of Factually True, but Inaccurate.
posted by Twain Device at 5:13 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

LA Times endorsement. Can you guess who they are endorsing? Hint: They say he or she would make a sober, smart, and pragmatic president while his or her opponent would be a catastrophe.

The suspense must be killing you.
posted by Justinian at 5:18 AM on September 23, 2016 [21 favorites]

Seriously, if all you read was "Clinton's lead over Trump narrows nationwide" would you think the poll was showing +7 for Clinton?

A good example of sh-tbagging press rolling under the boat. It already has that tinge of musty propaganda about it.
posted by petebest at 5:31 AM on September 23, 2016

It finally happened- somebody stole my Hillary Clinton car magnet! Not sure when it happened; I last remember seeing it on my way up to Boston so it might have happened there. The haters will be sad to learn I have already ordered another one (from Cafepress because ain'tnobodygottime to wait on HillaryClinton.com).
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:33 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

They say he or she would make a sober, smart, and pragmatic president while his or her opponent would be a catastrophe.

Yeah, I guess we all agree that while Biden is wacky fun, Jeb would be a more stable hand on the tiller. Let me go check out the endorsement.

Oh, dear. I think my chrononavigator must be on the fritz. I guess I should have taken a left at the 75-Years' War, gone past the assassination of Pope Adrian VII. I think I've got my bearings now.

See ya, suckers!
posted by jackbishop at 5:41 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Obvious follow up question for any journalists reading who have spines: "Mr Trump recently called for the US to be one nation under one god [pause] which god is he referring to and why?"

A better one might be "Are you aware that Muslims and Jews believe in the same god that Christians do?"
posted by LionIndex at 5:42 AM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

Meanwhile, if you're a 15 year old (black) girl involved in a traffic accident on your bike, this is your world.

What the fucking shit.

She had a terrifying accident, refused to be taken to the hospital, and the police peppersprayed her and slammed her against the wall, then took her to the station without a seatbelt and kept her there because "if she leaves and dies from an aneurysm, that's on us".

So they violently attacked her to take care of her health?
posted by Tarumba at 5:43 AM on September 23, 2016 [36 favorites]

I have already ordered another one (from Cafepress because ain'tnobodygottime to wait on HillaryClinton.com).

Link please? Need.
posted by Dashy at 5:53 AM on September 23, 2016

So they violently attacked her to take care of her health?

What does she have to lose??
posted by petebest at 5:58 AM on September 23, 2016 [27 favorites]

Meanwhile, if you're a 15 year old (black) girl involved in a traffic accident on your bike, this is your world.

my god.... this is like my worst nightmare come true
posted by rebent at 6:03 AM on September 23, 2016

I have already ordered another one (from Cafepress because ain'tnobodygottime to wait on HillaryClinton.com).

Link please? Need.

I chose this one but they have a large selection. You pay out the nose for shipping but whaddyagonnado. Be sure to use the 20% coupon = AUTUMN20!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:07 AM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Talking Points Memo has a lengthy article detailing why the multiple acts of self-dealing Trump did with his foundation are a no-no. The lede used the phrase "obvious violations of the law." Will the so-called "liberal media" devote even a tenth of the amount of coverage to actual illegal acts as it did to the fruitless fishing expedition ("some donors may have sought favors; did not get them") over the Clinton Foundation?

I know: Of course not.
posted by Gelatin at 6:10 AM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

AP-GfK poll: 'Deplorables' comment sticks to him, not her

"It was supposed to be her "47 percent" moment. When Hillary Clinton said that half of Donald Trump's supporters belonged in a "basket of deplorables," Republicans thought they just might have found her campaign-crushing-blunder.

The gaffe, they hoped, was a way to cement an image as an out-of-touch snob, just as Democrats did four years ago to Mitt Romney after he said "47 percent" of voters backed President Barack Obama because they were "dependent on government."

But a new Associated Press-GfK poll finds that Clinton's stumble didn't have quite the impact that Trump and his supporters wanted. Instead, it's Trump who's viewed as most disconnected and disrespectful."
posted by chris24 at 6:10 AM on September 23, 2016 [47 favorites]

I think "stronger together" actually sums up Clinton's reason for running very well and sets up a really important contrast between the candidates. Trump is sort of an originalist I guess in that he thinks of "all men are created equal, endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights" as it was meant in Jefferson's time, ie white dudes with money. The list of who would not be protected or even included under a Trump presidency is long: people of color, anyone not cis, anyone with a disability, anyone whose parent wasn't born on American soil, people who have guns in Chicago...

Not to mention that he would destroy the economy and possibly ignite nuclear armageddon.

But I think Clinton has a better shot at getting people to see that she thinks America is better when everyone is included and that when Trump says he'll make things better for people, he probably doesn't mean "you" specifically.

The question is whether the moderator at Monday's debate will try to relitigate every "scandal" from the past 30 years or if he'll give her a chance to get her message across. And whether the post-debate reporting has any semblance to reality.
posted by betsybetsy at 6:11 AM on September 23, 2016 [14 favorites]

A better one might be "Are you aware that Muslims and Jews believe in the same god that Christians do?"

Ok, but Hindus don't. Buddhists have a belief system that doesn't really fit into any paradigm that takes Christianity to be the norm. Many Americans don't believe in any god. This country exists for all its citizens, not just the ones who subscribe to Abrahamic faiths. I actually think that it's super important that we keep focusing on that point. It's not just that the Trump assholes are drawing the boundaries wrong: it's that they're wrong to draw boundaries around American citizenship. There are no religious tests for American citizenship. This country is for all its citizens.

It's funny, though, because I know some people who won't pledge allegiance to the flag, and they're all acting out of sincere Christian conviction.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:11 AM on September 23, 2016 [55 favorites]

ArbitraryAndCapricious, I'm one of those people.
posted by EarBucket at 6:18 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Steve "Heir of the Dog" Bannon is Trump's campaign manager. After being busted by the national media for being registered to vote at a vacant Florida property, Bannon re-registered at the home of Andy Badolato.

Turns out, he's quite a character.

More important is the wreckage of plundered public companies Badolato has left strewn in his path. He was assisted in this endeavors by a roving group of ‘business associates’ — many of whom are currently incarcerated — including three officers from one of his companies who were all sent to prison at the same time.

A now-defunct Mark Cuban-owned internet site called Sharesleuth, suspicious of Badolato’s involvement in a company called UTEK, ran a routine check of online court records in Sarasota County and found at least 15 financial-related suits listing Badolato as a defendant, including foreclosures, suits by investors in Badolato ventures, a judgment by American Express, and one from a Bahamian resort and casino for unpaid bills.

To give vent to hurt feelings, one irate investor even created a website, where the first thing that confronts you is a bold headline reading “Andy Badolato is a con-artist.”

It gets worse from there.

Trump: Classy crime, not, like, immigrant crime.
posted by petebest at 6:20 AM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]

After Trump county chair resigns, new chair deletes tweets critical of candidate

I wonder how much the Donald J. Trump Foundation paid her for her soul.
posted by zakur at 6:24 AM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well, my atheist husband and myself don't pledge allegiance to the flag, but our son does it in preschool and we don't really care (bonus: he thinks it goes "one nation, under guard" because he doesn't know what a god is, and if you try to correct him he'll tell you you're wrong).

I was raised atheist so I've spent 40 years being kind of touchy about freedom of religion also meaning freedom from religion, which a lot of people even on the Left conveniently forget when we all get real busy trying to out-patriot and out-godsquad the Right.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:27 AM on September 23, 2016 [44 favorites]

Honestly Gary, I appreciate the legalization plank, but maybe show up to interviews not stoned.
posted by chris24 at 6:28 AM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

I wonder how much the Donald J. Trump Foundation paid her for her soul.

Come on, Trump doesn't pay for anything.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:35 AM on September 23, 2016 [16 favorites]

Also something that has been pinging around my brain: I remember the last time we as a country got this worked up about ~*~*~PATRIOTIZM~*~* and flag-waving and standing for the anthem and praising the military at every possible opportunity and how big is ur flag lapel pin and all that, and it was when we were entering into (super questionable) actual wars.

Right now, however, all this theatrical signalling with the flag and performative patriotism isn't to let everyone know that you support a (dubiously lawful but at least nominally multilateral) military action taking place in a foreign land, it's to let everyone know that you support the State going to war against innocent people just trying to live their lives right here on American soil. It's terrifying to me that so many people just seem to be rolling with this.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:35 AM on September 23, 2016 [39 favorites]

Mirrors | Hillary Clinton
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:39 AM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

A third good Clinton ad focusing on people with disabilities.

"He's 70 years old, and he's still a bully."
posted by chris24 at 6:40 AM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Nowcast is now up 10% for Clinton over the past three days; Enten's article about how her rebound is greatly exaggerated still up. Silver also has a super thoughtful piece about how Clinton is leading in all the states she needs by a comfortable margin and why that should worry her and her supporters.

I'd like to propose revising a long forgotten slogan from a presidential campaign past: this is terrible news! For Hillary Clinton!!
posted by one_bean at 6:44 AM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

Oh, I know this one! Nate, it's because you still need clicks!

Not that his analysis is wrong, just that it should always be taken with a grain of salt.
posted by VTX at 6:48 AM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

NEW #POLLS 9/22
■AP: CLINTON +6
■PEW: CLINTON +7
■ICIT: CLINTON +5
■NBC/WSJ: C +7
■ST.L: C +5
■ARG: C+3
■QUIN: C+5
■MORN: C+4
■ABC: C+8

That doesn't look too shabby.
posted by Tevin at 6:48 AM on September 23, 2016 [29 favorites]

soren_lorensen: all this theatrical signalling with the flag and performative patriotism isn't to let everyone know that you support a (dubiously lawful but at least nominally multilateral) military action taking place in a foreign land, it's to let everyone know that you support the State going to war against innocent people just trying to live their lives right here on American soil.

This, exactly. I was dismayed by the runup to Gulf War One and again for Gulf War Two. The jingoism and mindless flagwaving was disheartening. This time though, the "enemy" they're getting worked up about is right here at home. It's terrifying to me, and I'm a white guy. I can't imagine how scary it must be for people of color.
posted by Surely This at 6:52 AM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

To be fair, Rasmussen came out with Trump +5. But it's Rasmussen, rightwing pollster who had Romney beating Obama in 2012. Overall pretty great poll news for Clinton.
posted by chris24 at 6:53 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

@joss

i don't trust Hillary i say LOCK HER UP in a room with NO CORNERS, a sort of oval room, then HARD LABOR running things for YEARS, maybe 8
posted by Sophie1 at 6:55 AM on September 23, 2016 [107 favorites]

ABC: NEW: Conservative activist and radio host Erick Erickson endorses independent presidential candidate Evan McMullin
posted by chris24 at 6:56 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

McMuffin!
posted by Surely This at 6:57 AM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

i don't trust Hillary i say LOCK HER UP in a room with NO CORNERS, a sort of oval room, then HARD LABOR running things for YEARS, maybe 8

That's going to go over a lot of people's heads.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:59 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

conservative separating from republican party. nothing new but it's comforting (to me at least) that wheels slowly turn. assuming trump doesn't win, perhaps there is some hope for a reasonable opposition in the future.

(also the "trump block" is a useful idea - near the end of the article)
posted by andrewcooke at 7:01 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Key NJ Legislators Looking at Christie Impeachment

"Key members of the New Jersey Assembly have begun researching whether or not to bring articles of impeachment against Gov. Chris Christie, NBC 4 New York has learned.

This follows early testimony in the George Washington Bridge scandal trial, which some Assembly members believe shows the Republican governor had more knowledge of the lane closures in Fort Lee during and after that week in 2013 then he has led the public to believe.

One committee chairman who did not want to be named said "clearly obstruction of justice" would be an obvious charge against the governor.

The legislator told NBC 4 New York the chances are probably 50-50 that the assembly would pursue impeachment."
posted by chris24 at 7:02 AM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

TPM: Why Trump's Shady Foundation Practices Are A Major No-No In The Charity World

Nice explainer. Wondering if an investigation can really affect his campaign so close to the general election.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:06 AM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

So Clinton is up 7 points in your poll, what's your headline?

Clinton has lead but is vulnerable on trust, connection with voters

posted by octothorpe at 7:07 AM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

Staffer who works for @mike_pence's transport dept. sent this from his work email to NYT @CharlesMBlow

How dumb do you have to get to send that from a work email?
posted by Talez at 7:10 AM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]

Ok, but Hindus don't. Buddhists have a belief system that doesn't really fit into any paradigm that takes Christianity to be the norm.

I'm not sure Trump has any idea that Hindus and Buddhists actually exist. I totally agree with you, I just had that question as a "gotcha", because I'd guess that quite a few Trumpists have no idea that there is such a classification as an "Abrahamic" religion, where they all share a god with different interpretations, and I'd guess Muslims were the intended target of Trump's "one God" comment.
posted by LionIndex at 7:14 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

farlukar: Can't you just put the phone down while keeping the call going, to run up their phone bill?

I imagine the campaigns and sides both have enough money for polls, but I like to think that our answering machine ties up some lines. See, our toddler mashed the buttons and managed to record an 18 minute greeting, and I haven't recorded it yet, so I haven't deleted it. It's no Sterling Archer voicemail hoax, but maybe it catches them for a few minutes. (We don't get many actual callers on our house line, as everyone we know has our cell phone numbers.)

But I did get to the house phone in time to be polled! I was so excited to be another likely voter (30-something white male) for Hillary and the Dems!
posted by filthy light thief at 7:15 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

How dumb do you have to get to send that from a work email?

Considering lots of men feel a-okay with sending rape/assault threats to women from their work-linked Twitter accounts in this day and age, it has become garden variety dumb.
posted by Kitteh at 7:17 AM on September 23, 2016 [15 favorites]

kirkaracha: Donald Trump’s puzzling appeal to black voters on Sean Hannity’s show, annotated

First thought: two terrible people together, ugh.
Second thought: Annotated? Oh, Washington Post, I love you so much. I didn't have to check the link.


Secret Life of Gravy: The difference with Trump is that one of his companies, TAG Air, Inc., owns the plane, so the government is effectively paying him [to fly secret service out to protect him].

Trump knows that the best monopolies are horizontal monopolies. The more links you own in the chain of economic exchanges, the more money you (the owner of those links) make.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:18 AM on September 23, 2016

Trump voter dumb?
posted by chris24 at 7:19 AM on September 23, 2016

Re: ain'tnobodygottime to wait on HillaryClinton.com
NO SHIT. I'm really getting annoyed. Order placed 04 August... still nothing.
posted by rp at 7:23 AM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

rp, they seem to be at about 10 weeks from order to arrival, based on my purchases.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:25 AM on September 23, 2016

An interesting thing about the latest polls is that they have Hillary up more among likely voters than among registered voters, which is a reverse of the usual pattern. Typically, Republicans do better with likely voters than with registered voters. I think that probably reflects Hillary's unusually high performance with college-educated voters, but it may also be that black voters have been more likely to turn out in recent presidential elections than white voters have. There was some question about whether that would still be true this election, but maybe the signs point to yes. Anyway, it's interesting.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:28 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Might be wishful thinking on my part, but I've always felt like it advantages Clinton to be thought of as the "underdog" going into the first debate because the media like to have a storyline of one of the candidates doing better than expected and then that influencing the polls. Sort of like at the end of the day the guys on CNBC look at whether the market went up or down and then pick one thing that made that happen.

If I were running the Clinton campaign I'd have surrogates going on the Sunday shows saying "Trump's a natural entertainer. He's got decades of experience on camera. He'll probably have a few good zingers ready to go. But whether he's able to articulate a vision for America that's based on helping all Americans and not hate remains to be seen."
posted by betsybetsy at 7:35 AM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

rp, they seem to be at about 10 weeks from order to arrival, based on my purchases.

If that's true, I'll receive my stuff about 3 days before the election!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:37 AM on September 23, 2016

i don't trust Hillary i say LOCK HER UP in a room with NO CORNERS, a sort of oval room, then HARD LABOR running things for YEARS, maybe 8

That's going to go over a lot of people's heads.

Well, it is the highest office.
posted by phearlez at 7:38 AM on September 23, 2016 [15 favorites]

"It was supposed to be her "47 percent" moment. When Hillary Clinton said that half of Donald Trump's supporters belonged in a "basket of deplorables," Republicans thought they just might have found her campaign-crushing-blunder.

NO IT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE HER 47 PERCENT MOMENT, YOU BUFFOON! Sure, the GOP hoped for that, but there's a STARK DIFFERENCE between what Romney said in a private fundraiser to wealthy donors, and captured only because a waiter recorded the conversation in secret

There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That that's an entitlement.

which he then had the gall to say he didn't exactly say that phrase, and he meant something different, compared to what Hillary said at a fundraiser with liberal donors and Barbra Streisand (no mention of the wealth or cost to attend, but the quote was posted on Twitter by a Buzzfeed journalist attending openly)

You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? [Laughter/applause]. The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people, now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets offensive, hateful, mean-spirited rhetoric. Now some of those folks, they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America.

Yup, they're the same. Both secretive (nope, that's not right), obscenely wealthy candidates (oh wait, only one is on the list of richest presidential candidates) who denigrated almost half of the country (oh wait, also incorrect) because they have the gall to want food, housing and healthcare of all things (wait - Hillary speaking of the racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic supporters of Trump).

Oh, and Hillary also tried to "walk back" her comment, except she said she "was 'grossly generalistic,' and that's never a good idea. I regret saying 'half' -- that was wrong," Clinton said in a statement in which she also vowed to call out "bigotry" in Trump's campaign." Yup, she only commented on the portion of Trump supporters who are bigots like the man they support.

Which gave everyone else a chance to either say "wait, that number is too low, we have polls to prove it" and ask Hillary to un-lump the racist coal miners, I mean "coal miner with some unacceptable opinions," from former Klansmen like David Duke.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:40 AM on September 23, 2016 [38 favorites]

I've been pondering the underdog thing a little lately and I think this narrative (like all the rest) is also pretty heavily impacted by gender. I think that the root of the trope is a dominance-based idea in the first place, which always favors men and the way that men operate in the world. When women aren't doing as well as they could be, well, there's probably a good reason for that. When men aren't doing as well as they could be, poor poor guys they just can't catch a break, it's just hard luck, let's pat them on the head and coddle them.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:42 AM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Debate Prep? Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump Differ on That, Too

Debate Team

Clinton:

Former President Bill Clinton has been attending more preparation sessions lately.

Other regulars include: Ron Klain, a veteran presidential debate coach; Ms. Dunn, a Washington lawyer; Joel Benenson, the campaign’s senior strategist; Mandy Grunwald and Jim Margolis, campaign media advisers; Robert Barnett, a lawyer and friend; John D. Podesta, the campaign’s chairman; and Jennifer Palmieri, the campaign’s communications director.

Trump:

Stephen K. Bannon, the campaign’s chief executive; Ms. Conway; former Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani of New York; Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey; Stephen Miller, a policy adviser; Jason Miller, a communications adviser; Lt. Gen. Michael T. Flynn, a retired Army officer; and Jared Kushner, Mr. Trump’s son-in-law.

The former Fox News executive Roger Ailes has not been at the last two debate sessions, but he sends memos and speaks to Mr. Trump.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:47 AM on September 23, 2016

Nate Silver: Trump's smart enough to sandbag expectations by planting a couple stories that he isn't doing debate prep, no? Trump's also dumb enough to not do debate prep. But we'd be seeing these stories, whether or not he was. These stories are also coming from reporters with very good access to Trump. "No debate prep" is the message his campaign wants out there.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:50 AM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

Dammit I got pipped by r317.

My favourite part is this:

He prefers not to do a full-length mock debate, and has no set person playing Mrs. Clinton.

He is not using a lectern for mock debate drills, despite suggestions from some on his coaching team that simulating a one-on-one debate is good practice after the primary debates that featured several rivals.

Some Trump advisers are concerned that he underestimates the difficulty of standing still, talking pointedly and listening sharply for 90 minutes. In the primary debates he often receded into the background, and only jumped into the debate forcefully when he was attacked. Some advisers worry that if Mrs. Clinton surprises him, he will be caught flat-footed.

So Trump's advisers are worried that he can't just stand there and not drool on himself for 90 minutes.
posted by Talez at 7:51 AM on September 23, 2016 [19 favorites]

I may have missed someone else making this comment as I avoided these threads for a few days, but I'm wondering if the clunky "basket of deplorables" phrase was deliberately designed to be so weird and mockable and -- viral. Sure, we've seen Trump supporters embrace the "deplorable" part, but a lot of the media, Clinton supporters and political junkies have commented repeatedly on how awful a turn of phrase that was. Young, progressive commentators on Twitter and elsewhere have framed it as the out of touch Clinton campaign trying to be cool and fucking it up again.

But this is a campaign that is generally adept in its ads and marketing. I may find some Clinton ads more effective than others, but I can see smart people at work -- smart people who would also know that "basket of deplorables" is an unbelievably awkward phrase that other smart people could not resist mocking. Why not put up with a little mockery from your unwitting vectors as long as they spread the phrase and the message?
posted by maudlin at 7:52 AM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]

Greg Sargent: "In a sense, the idea that Clinton “needs” to “bait” Unhinged Trump into making an appearance is its own form of artificial expectations gaming. If Trump avoids this “trap,” that then allows commentators to claim that he “defied expectations” and was surprisingly sober, serious, and perhaps even presidential. But these “expectations” are arbitrary, and they are set by the commentators themselves. Trump should not be accorded credit for being less ignorant, unhinged, hateful, and dishonest than usual."
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:52 AM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]

So Trump's advisers are worried that he can't just stand there and not drool on himself for 90 minutes.

No, they want the pundits to think that so that when he clears the absolute lowest bar, they will gasp in astonishment and fall over themselves telling us how calm and poised and "presidential" he looked.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:53 AM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

Debate Team Trump:
Stephen K. Bannon, the campaign’s chief executive; Ms. Conway; former Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani of New York; Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey; Stephen Miller, a policy adviser; Jason Miller, a communications adviser; Lt. Gen. Michael T. Flynn, a retired Army officer; and Jared Kushner, Mr. Trump’s son-in-law. ... Roger Ailes ... sends memos and speaks to Mr. Trump.

Oh my god I feel nauseous. These - these clowns - these are the people who are working with Trump?
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:55 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's like some sort of container of really terrible people
posted by EarBucket at 8:00 AM on September 23, 2016 [94 favorites]

"basket of deplorables" phrase was deliberately designed to be so weird and mockable and -- viral.

You know, it works well as "six-pack of deplorables" or "assload of deplorables" it's a surprisingly adaptable phrase. It's weird but memorable. I kind of like it.
posted by emjaybee at 8:01 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

Oh my god I feel nauseous. These - these clowns - these are the people who are working with Trump?

They've been working with him for a long time, and look how far he's come. Really, I'd be more surprised if he had someone new and didn't include at least one relative.

Bill doesn't count like that for Hillary - he has actual experience in politics and political debates, unlike Jared Kushner, whose prior political experience was donating less than $7k per year for 15 years to the Democrats. At least, that's what is on Wikipedia as of making this post.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:04 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Metric shit-ton of deplorables" has a ring to it and adds that Socialist feel.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:08 AM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

MotherJones: Here's Everything Donald Trump Has Promised to Do on His First Day as President
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:16 AM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Basket of Deplorables: first drafts

- Archipelago of Bigots
- Galaxy of dipshits
- Collander of buffoons
- Cauldron of idiots (my favorite)
- Tankard of reprehensibles
- Barrel of dreadfuls
- Bucket of Wretches
- Box of bumbos
posted by Tevin at 8:16 AM on September 23, 2016 [28 favorites]

I can't help but think "basket of deplorables" is a much-workshopped version of "bag of dicks."
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:16 AM on September 23, 2016 [86 favorites]

I had just assumed she was substituting the words Basket for Bag and Deplorables for Dicks, making the term relatively acceptably presidential.
posted by newpotato at 8:17 AM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]

On non-preview, jinx
posted by newpotato at 8:19 AM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think she should have gone with : Knock-off handbag of asshats
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:20 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Surely "Confederacy of Dunces" would have been under consideration.
posted by GrammarMoses at 8:24 AM on September 23, 2016 [27 favorites]

'Basket' reminds me of the market baskets used to calculate consumer price indices and purchasing power parity indicators, which suggests an array of various discrete types of awful people. 'Bag of deplorables' or 'mob of deplorables' wouldn't have the same connotation.
posted by theodolite at 8:25 AM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

I had just assumed she was substituting the words Basket for Bag and Deplorables for Dicks, making the term relatively acceptably presidential.

If she'd left it at Bag of Dicks it would've been LBJ presidential.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:28 AM on September 23, 2016 [15 favorites]

A farrago of steves
posted by drezdn at 8:29 AM on September 23, 2016 [23 favorites]

I suspect that even the "half" part of the "basket of deplorable" "gaffe" was planned -- or that the Clinton team planned to walk back some part of the phrase if it didn't go as viral as they wanted. They got the media and the Trump campaign to stretch the controversy out for what, a week and a half now? by making it look like OMG CLINTON'S 47% MOMENT.

Polls indicate that A) voters don't actually care much about this and that B) to the extent they do, they were either already in Trump's corner.

Trump's worst ally (beside himself) is his idiot supporters. How many swing voters went on Facebook, saw that that cousin or co-worker or obnoxious friend-of-a-friend was all up in arms about DEPLORABLES and thought, uh, well, that guy actually is kind of deplorable...?

Let the Trumpists run up their deplorable vote in deep red areas. The votes that matter are in the suburbs of the Piedmont and in the Upper Midwest. Get them while holding New England, the Mid-Atlantic and the West Coast, and say hello to Madame President. And in four years, even if Ohio becomes the stably light-red counter to Pennsylvania, NC and GA will be blue.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:34 AM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

Dumpster of Flammables.
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:34 AM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

Bucket of Dogshit
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:38 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump’s English-only campaign:

With 46 days until the November elections, and as early voting begins in a handful of states, Trump is on the precipice of becoming the only major-party presidential candidate this century not to reach out to millions of American voters whose dominant, first or just preferred language is Spanish. Trump has not only failed to buy any Spanish-language television or radio ads, he so far has avoided even offering a translation of his website into Spanish, breaking with two decades of bipartisan tradition.

posted by kirkaracha at 8:39 AM on September 23, 2016 [14 favorites]

For all the JCPL sufferers (myself included): Trump Induced Anxiety is a Real Thing
posted by anastasiav at 8:40 AM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

For Trump to reach out to Spanish speaking voters would be massivelyoff-brand.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:41 AM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

And if Trump tries to bring it up at the debate, Hillary should ask him, "Well Donald, what percentage of your voters do YOU think are raging racists, sexists and homophobes?"
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:41 AM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

But this is a campaign that is generally adept in its ads and marketing. I may find some Clinton ads more effective than others, but I can see smart people at work -- smart people who would also know that "basket of deplorables" is an unbelievably awkward phrase that other smart people could not resist mocking. Why not put up with a little mockery from your unwitting vectors as long as they spread the phrase and the message?

Yeah, the Clinton campaign is smart enough to know what you call the team that comes onto the field to boos, scores baskets through boring teamwork and layups rather than celebrity grandstanding dunks, has a serviceable but non-flashy cheer squad, and who are mocked for taking the safe point to just barely pull ahead rather than going for the glamourous play: winners.

Please don't give me a bunch of blah about the importance of running up the score to get a mandate or servicing constituencies or any number of other nitpicks; it's just a metaphor, not a comprehensive treatise.
posted by phearlez at 8:41 AM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

The Trump campaign’s most notable dabbling in Spanish consisted of a single word — and it was misused. At the Republican convention in Cleveland, officials handed out signs that read “Hispanics Para Trump,” which both didn’t translate Hispanics and used the incorrect Spanish word for “for” (para instead of por).

posted by kirkaracha at 8:45 AM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]

Metafilter: please don't give me a bunch of blah... it's not a comprehensive treatise.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:46 AM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]

What boggles my mind are the number of Trump supporters who are embracing the "deplorables" label. Changing their social media handles to include it, buying T-shirts and bumper stickers, etc.
posted by zakur at 8:49 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

And if Trump tries to bring it up at the debate, Hillary should ask him, "Well Donald, what percentage of your voters do YOU think are raging racists, sexists and homophobes?"


"Yes, Donald, I find white supremacists like the KKK and Stormfront deplorable. Do you? And if you won't call them deplorable, what is your opinion of them?"
posted by rocket88 at 8:49 AM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

Basket of Deplorables: first drafts

Boardroom of Fox News
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:51 AM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

I put "Hispanics for Trump" into Google Translate and it spat out "Hispanos por Trump". What did they use, AltaVista?
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:53 AM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

What boggles my mind are the number of Trump supporters who are embracing the "deplorables" label.

It doesn't surprise me at all. As someone who has occasionally hung out with crust punks and read the odd article about Juggalo culture, I can affirm that people who feel oppressed by mainstream society for whatever reason often embrace the insults thrown their way in order to reclaim them and forge a stronger identity.
posted by infinitywaltz at 8:54 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Please don't give me a bunch of blah about the importance of running up the score to get a mandate...

To be fair, those points are typically brought up when people get complacent about a Clinton win. My stance continues to be that whether they are WAY ahead or WAY behind, the Hillary campaign plays just as hard.

They are exactly the team you describe and they will execute their game the same way whether it's a close game or not. That's part of what makes them winners.
posted by VTX at 8:54 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

> I think that the root of the trope is a dominance-based idea in the first place, which always favors men and the way that men operate in the world. When women aren't doing as well as they could be, well, there's probably a good reason for that.

AKA XKCD 385.

--

I wanted to like www.hillaryclinton.com, but maybe I'm getting too old for the Internet. Between the on-page popup ad thingy that 'forces' you to agree to the statement "Donald Trump is temperamentally unfit for the presidency", and auto-playing video at the top (no audio), and I'm not sure what to say. The chopped-off headline link to listicles are what did it for me - "112 reasons (and counting!) Hillary Clinton should be our next...". I can guess the next word, thanks, but at least at least Buzzfeed can finish their titles, even if title is something as base like "21 Photos Proving Summer Was The Fucking Worst" which is currently running. (Trump's website has auto-playing video, but not the other two things.)

The messaging on www.hillaryclinton.com is all in on Hillary isn't Trump, for better or worse, and "Stronger Together" doesn't appear anywhere on the main page, nor does "I'm With Her", and I don't consider "Hillary for America" to count as slogan. (MAGA is even used to state policy positions.)

(Laughably, Chrome complains that Trump's website is insecure, so that end has more fail.)

The HONY piece on Hillary Clinton was really humanizing and made me think alllll the way back to the DNC. (Remember that? That was so long ago....) but reading policy positions on the Hillary For America website doesn't give me that same warm fuzzie feeling.

My dusty memories of the election in 2000 leave Al Gore's main draw as being "not Bush II", with a lot being said about not wanting dynasties. I'm very thankful that MSM hasn't tried to push that bit this year so far.
posted by fragmede at 8:55 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

What did they use, AltaVista?

You give them way too much credit. Try just "for."
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:55 AM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

What boggles my mind are the number of Trump supporters who are embracing the "deplorables" label.

Fine with me, makes it easier to identify the racist assholes.
posted by chris24 at 8:55 AM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

What boggles my mind are the number of Trump supporters who are embracing the "deplorables" label. Changing their social media handles to include it, buying T-shirts and bumper stickers, etc.

Oh, it means they've "won" in some obscure way. Dumb troll logic.
posted by Artw at 8:57 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

I can affirm that people who feel oppressed by mainstream society for whatever reason often embrace the insults thrown their way

A lot of the self-labeled "deplorables" I see on social media are middle-aged white people with jobs and houses and shit
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:58 AM on September 23, 2016 [20 favorites]

If basket of deplorables was intended to be a dogwhistle for Bag-o-Dicks, my esteem for the campaign goes way up. Way to communicate with youth, Hlllary!
posted by theora55 at 9:00 AM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah, but they FEEL oppressed. Because, you know, "P.C. culture run amok" or the expectation to behave with basic human decency or whatever.
posted by infinitywaltz at 9:00 AM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]

According to CNN's onscreen scorecard of Trump's wins and losses this last week in Who Won the Week in Politics:

Wins: Bombings

Fuck CNN.
posted by chris24 at 9:00 AM on September 23, 2016 [20 favorites]

Wins: Bombings

Tired of winning already.
posted by peeedro at 9:01 AM on September 23, 2016 [32 favorites]

What boggles my mind are the number of Trump supporters who are embracing the "deplorables" label.

There's a long conservative tradition of "Those liberals are calling me a bad name, but I'm proud to be that bad name, because if they don't like me, I'm doing something right." Rush Limbaugh has been doing this explicitly for decades.
posted by Etrigan at 9:03 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

So long as CNN employs someone on Trump's payroll, their opinion is not worth a flying fart to me.
posted by emjaybee at 9:03 AM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

I can't help but think "basket of deplorables" is a much-workshopped version of "bag of dicks."

CANNOT UNSEE; this is now what I'm going to think of every time the media comments on the B.o.D. comment. Great.

I also agree that it was a masterpiece of deliberately awkward phrasing; it sounds like like the speaker is polite enough that they would never actually think the phrase "bag of dicks" or "shitload of asshats" and was groping for some way to say, these people are awful, no, REALLY awful; words fail me but I need to tell you how bad they are.

And there was risk - it could've been Clinton's 47% moment if the Trump followers hadn't proudly claimed it for themselves. Trump's campaign might've been able to spin it as "Clinton is a hater; she thinks good Americans are irredeemable just because they might have a few harsh thoughts about people they don't trust" (and he tried) but he was caught by his (and Pence's) unwillingness to declare anyone actually a deplorable.

They could've tried saying, "I'm sure we have a handful of deplorable followers, just as she does, but it's not fair of her to paint half our supporters with that brush." By trying to push the twin messages of (1) none of our followers are deplorable and (2) hey followers - revel in your deplorability, Trump lost his chance to make this a mark against Clinton.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:05 AM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

Oh, it means they've "won" in some obscure way. Dumb troll logic.

Because it's not about being a good or bad person. It's about pissing off the liberals. That's why they get faux outraged about being called out when they're being racist and xenophobic. It channels the same outrage and incredulousness that they have seen the liberals long use as a weapon. They don't give a shit what we think about them. They couldn't give less of a shit about a liberal's actual opinion. They just want to piss us off, prove us wrong because we're usually right and are oh so smug about it and then watch us cry because a lot of people innocent people are going to get hurt.

The anti-liberal bent of this country was willing to put up with Reagan basically selling out the country if only it would mean perceived white male hegemony and liberal know-it-alls like Dukakis and his "female" bullshit VP crying in a corner after it was done. 1984 came off the back of a literal fucking recession and the straight while males of the country stood up and declared Reagan to be the savior of the nation.
posted by Talez at 9:07 AM on September 23, 2016 [13 favorites]

Vincente Fernandez sings pro-Clinton corrido. (scroll down for video)
posted by emjaybee at 9:07 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Obama: "I think even most 8-year-olds will tell you that whole slavery thing wasn't very good for black people, Jim Crow wasn't very good for black people."
posted by chris24 at 9:09 AM on September 23, 2016 [19 favorites]

>> What boggles my mind are the number of Trump supporters who are embracing the "deplorables" label.
> Fine with me, makes it easier to identify the racist assholes.

Reminds me of a tattoo artist who happily put swastikas on people. “I get to let everyone see what you are and you're paying me for it? Win/win!”
posted by farlukar at 9:09 AM on September 23, 2016 [25 favorites]

Hell, look at 2000. The Democrats left the presidency with a growing economy and a budget in surplus and people still thought "fuck that know-it-all Gore let's let Bush the village idiot have a stab at it" just to piss off the liberals.
posted by Talez at 9:11 AM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]

My work just published a survey with CNN (we did the survey, they did reporting) that "explores the views and experiences of white Americans without college degrees (a group defined in this survey as “working-class whites”), including how they feel about their own lives and the direction of the country, their attitudes towards government, their economic priorities, feelings about immigration and increasing racial and ethnic diversity, and personal experiences with employment and finances. It also compares this group’s attitudes and experiences with those of whites with college degrees, as well as those of blacks and Hispanics without college degrees (working-class blacks and Hispanics). Finally, the survey explores the views of different subgroups within the white working class, including variations by partisanship, age, income, region of the country, and religious identification."

I don't work in the policy or polling program areas - it's my job to get all the things posted to the site. It was depressing to prep and post these materials, because of results like this: Whites without a college degree are nervous about cultural changes taking place in the United States. About two-thirds (65 percent) say Christian values are under attack, and almost four in ten (38 percent) say increasing racial and ethnic diversity is harmful because “some people feel like they no longer belong”
posted by rtha at 9:11 AM on September 23, 2016 [15 favorites]

Can Hillary rebuild her campaign with an upbeat message? And will anyone even notice?:

But the question is, if someone lays out a positive policy agenda and nobody hears it, did it really happen? Let’s take Wednesday as an example, when Clinton gave a big speech about something that is important to millions of Americans. She went to Orlando, a major city in a crucial swing state, and spoke about disability rights, expressing her plans in terms of American values of equality and inclusiveness. This is the fourth in a series of “Stronger Together” speeches the Democratic nominee has given recently about faith, community service, families and children, designed to display her values and vision for the future and show how her policies will achieve them.
...
Did you know about any of that? Has the press asked her questions about those issues in the now-frequent press avails she’s given over the last few weeks? Did you see any of those speeches in their entirety? Probably not. And that’s not the campaign’s fault.

News Coverage of the 2016 National Conventions: Negative News, Lacking Context:

What appeared to be missing from this negative coverage, however, was context. For example, although Clinton’s email issue was clearly deemed important by the media, relatively few stories provided background to help news consumers make sense of the issue—what harm was caused by her actions, or how common these actions are among elected officials. And in keeping with patterns noted earlier in the election cycle, coverage of policy and issues, although they were in the forefront at the conventions, continued to take a back seat to polls, projections, and scandal.

If Clinton loses, blame the email controversy and the media (emphasis added):

Few presidential candidates have been more fully prepared to assume the duties of the presidency than is Clinton. Yet, her many accomplishments as first lady, U.S. senator, and secretary of State barely surfaced in the news coverage of her candidacy at any point in the campaign. She may as well as have spent those years baking cookies.

How about her foreign, defense, social or economic policies? Don’t bother looking. Not a single one of Clinton’s policy proposals accounted for even 1% of her convention-period coverage; collectively, her policy stands accounted for a mere 4% of it. But she might be thankful for that: News reports about her stances were 71% negative to 29% positive in tone. Trump was quoted more often about her policies than she was. Trump’s claim that Clinton “created ISIS,” for example, got more news attention than her announcement of how she would handle Islamic State.

posted by kirkaracha at 9:11 AM on September 23, 2016 [31 favorites]

Victims of Trump-induced anxiety describe nightmares, insomnia, digestive problems, and headaches. Therapists find themselves helping their patients through a process that feels less like an election than a national nervous breakdown.

. . . Liz hasn’t agreed with past Republican candidates, she says, but she didn’t think they would “ruin my country, or cause civil war, or cause World War III.” But her fear also stems from her incredulous realization that so many of her fellow citizens inhabit a reality that barely intersects with her own. “I can no longer see where they’re coming from,” she says of Trump supporters. “I feel like I’m in The Twilight Zone.”

It checks out.
posted by petebest at 9:12 AM on September 23, 2016 [26 favorites]

I just realized with the debates at 90 minutes long, un edited and live, that means there is plenty of time for trump to contradict himself and be called on it.

That's something he's managed to avoid by being the pitchman with enough dazzle to befuddle people, and not sticking around for hard questions.

I really hope the moderator has a spine, and we see Donald snap and break the "he's so presidential for a non political person" image.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:13 AM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

But that doesn't get her, or us, off the hook: What is her thesis statement? What does she want to do? And the answer can't be: I want to do the 33 things on my website.

This is a sincere question:

Why not?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:14 AM on September 23, 2016 [19 favorites]

Why not?

Because 20% of the country can't read above a 5th grade level.
posted by Talez at 9:16 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

I somehow got blocked out of my Hillary Clinton phone banking account! Not sure what happened; I was dialing last night, submitting details, then POOF, no more access. I submitted a technical request with a screenshot; if they work on those as fast as they ship merchandise orders, I guess I'll be calling for Hillary again 3 days before the election :)
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:18 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

And the answer can't be: I want to do the 33 things on my website.

Why not?

Because 13% of Americans don't use the internet (cite) and about 30% don't have broadband access in their homes (cite).
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:20 AM on September 23, 2016

News reports about her stances were 71% negative to 29% positive in tone. Trump was quoted more often about her policies than she was.

That seems somehow unfair and imbalanced.

Not to worry, NYT Public Editor Liz Spayd is on the way to save the day.
(After two pages of hand-wringing, she tentatively allows that Trump's birther brouhaha might qualify as a "lie". For completists only.)
posted by petebest at 9:22 AM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

I somehow got blocked out of my Hillary Clinton phone banking account! Not sure what happened; I was dialing last night, submitting details, then POOF, no more access.

Probably worried about the scandal after you admitted to only phone banking au naturel.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:23 AM on September 23, 2016 [22 favorites]

‏@brianbeutler:

Media: Trump rumors, pneumonia mean Clinton might die

[lively Clinton debate performance]

Media: Trump avoided mental breakdown so he won

posted by zombieflanders at 9:23 AM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]

Because 13% of Americans don't use the internet (cite) and about 30% don't have broadband access in their homes (cite).

....I thought the objection was "giving a list of things is not an agenda" rather than "directing people to the web site is not an agenda". Argybarg, care to clarify?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:24 AM on September 23, 2016

Avenue Q adds Clinton, Trump puppets for mock debate
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:25 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

This thread is at the point where I can't really tell if this has been posted, but if not, Bloomberg has a pretty interesting breakdown of ad spending so far.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:26 AM on September 23, 2016

rtha: "almost four in ten (38 percent) say increasing racial and ethnic diversity is harmful because “some people feel like they no longer belong”"

This brings to mind a Twitter quip that went something like: "Why are whites so afraid of losing their majority status? Are minorities in America treated poorly or something?"
posted by mhum at 9:26 AM on September 23, 2016 [48 favorites]

Trump puppets

Some people are a lot a bit racist.
posted by cmfletcher at 9:28 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

Sixth Circuit REVERSES in Ohio voter roll purge case
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:28 AM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

basket of deplorables

Clinton is a lawyer so she would definitely know about the rhetorical technique with the equally awkward name, "parade of horribles". When I first heard the basket quote I thought it might have been some weird paraphrase of that.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 9:29 AM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

Avenue Q

TRUMP

Is only for nowww.... 🎤
posted by saturday_morning at 9:32 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

How many law school bar bands have been called Parade of Horribles
posted by Countess Elena at 9:33 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

R317, help. Is this a good reverse or a bad reverse?
posted by saturday_morning at 9:35 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Things Hillary wants to do, bite-size version: Raise minimum wage; provide health care for everyone who needs it; build a diverse and tolerant society so we can all thrive.

Unfortunately, those don't feed into the notion that political stances need to have "winners" and "losers;" while some argue that a higher minimum wage is bad for businesses (and it's certainly a debatable point), the actual harm done is abstract and hard to describe, and it takes a solid understanding of economics to suss out the pros and cons.

Wages, health care, and inclusivity are not controversial talking points, so they're getting ignored for obscure bits of tax law or complex foreign policy - or, of course, "does she seem aloof and unfriendly."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:35 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

Is this a good reverse or a bad reverse?

Good. "Ohio’s Supplemental Process [for removing voters from the rolls] violates Section 8, subsection (b)(2) of the NVRA.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:37 AM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

NYT Public Editor Liz Spayd

2016 Election writers' room: "We've got to come up with a name for the neutered public editor of the Old Gray Lady. Suggestions?"
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:38 AM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

The Week posts an infuriating op/ed basically asking "Is open white supremacy really racist?"

Warning: white nationalist garbage being posted on a regular news and views site as though it weren't Nazi filth.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:39 AM on September 23, 2016 [14 favorites]

Best law school bar band name: Learned Butt
(it was the 90s)
posted by whuppy at 9:41 AM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

At this point I'm starting to think you could make a lot of money selling "One Nation, One People, One Leader" t-shirts and stickers at Trump rallies.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:42 AM on September 23, 2016 [31 favorites]

Ohio voter purge case:

• OH removed voters from the rolls for inactivity or disqualification (felony, etc.)
• Plaintiffs complained, demanded to have names returned. Claimed removal process violated several laws. (Improper notice, lack of necessary info, etc.)
• Cue lawsuit.
• District court sided with the state, said plaintiff's points were moot.
• Higher court overruled (pdf) - said plaintiff's claims are valid, and remanded it back down for next steps.

Looks like the case is still ongoing, and voter names have not been re-added to the registry. However, sending it back down, with the higher court's analysis of the legal issues, may help get it resolved, hopefully before the election.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:47 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

We had multiple teams named Basket of Adorables at trivia night this week.
posted by aabbbiee at 9:50 AM on September 23, 2016 [22 favorites]

NYT: Trump’s Ghostwriter [Tony Schwartz] Explains How to Beat Him in a Debate

“What I would hope is that she doesn’t go the same route she did with Matt Lauer when he started coming at her relentlessly, which was to revert to her knowledge, to revert to her ability to produce a hundred facts in a short period of time,” he says. “Because this debate is going to turn not a bit on the issues. It’s going to turn on emotion, it’s going to turn on which candidate makes all of us feel safer and which candidate makes us feel less safe. And the one who wins that contest wins the debate — and probably wins the election.”

Agreed. This is a fight of emotions and feelings.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:50 AM on September 23, 2016 [18 favorites]

At this point I'm starting to think you could make a lot of money selling "One Nation, One People, One Leader" t-shirts and stickers at Trump rallies.

Yes, but would you feel clean afterwards?
posted by nubs at 9:54 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

> It’s going to turn on emotion, it’s going to turn on which candidate makes all of us feel safer and which candidate makes us feel less safe.

FRESHLY LAUNDERED SECURITY BANKY 2020
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:55 AM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

Yes, but would you feel clean afterwards?

No, I'd be filthy rich.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:56 AM on September 23, 2016 [16 favorites]

4 bankruptcies, 3 wives, 2 standards, one choice.
posted by humanfont at 9:59 AM on September 23, 2016 [22 favorites]

Donate all the proceeds to down-ticket Dems and the Clinton Foundation.
posted by erisfree at 10:00 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

And the answer can't be: I want to do the 33 things on my website.

Why not?

People want an overall vision. I want an overall vision. Not a four-word slogan, but a thesis. A vision of what ails us, what's right, and what broad goals we ought to meet through what means.

I think it's the job of the president not just to administrate competently but to stand for a recognizable set of ideals, to which people can rally.

I think I can guess what it is in HRC's case, but I'd rather not guess. In the case of Democrats, I suspect, as many people do, a sheepishness about what we really want: We want a nation rooted in compassion, consideration, due process, universal principles, aspiration to higher ideals and shared sacrifice. We want the noble version of ourselves, and not the brute-force version, to be our image in the public sphere. But those values are often seen as weak or too hard of a sell. Meanwhile Republicans play in primary colors: power, get what's yours, close out the enemy, rally to the flag.

Hillary has never been a compelling wordsmith or orator. She's a very decent person and will do many parts of the job well. And who knows? Maybe someone who can play the deep structural game is what we need more than we need charisma. But not in election season.
posted by argybarg at 10:03 AM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

Agreed. This is a fight of emotions and feelings.

Which sucks because the emotional spectrum for men runs from "analytical" to "impassioned," whereas women get to be somewhere between "ice queen" and "unhinged shrew."
posted by bibliowench at 10:06 AM on September 23, 2016 [52 favorites]

People want an overall vision. I want an overall vision. Not a four-word slogan, but a thesis. A vision of what ails us, what's right, and what broad goals we ought to meet through what means.

I'd like to have both.

Also: "Yes We Can"
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:08 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

Hillary has never been a compelling wordsmith or orator.

Please don't state such things as fact. I find her to be a very compelling and inspiring speaker.
posted by agregoli at 10:09 AM on September 23, 2016 [63 favorites]

Which sucks because the emotional spectrum for men runs from "analytical" to "impassioned," whereas women get to be somewhere between "ice queen" and "unhinged shrew."

YES THANK YOU

I, too, tend to retreat to dry facts when I'm challenged at work, because if you show even the tiniest hint of feeling as a woman you lose instantly.* I completely understand the 'well if you don't believe ME, at least look at these OBJECTIVE STATEMENTS' being what Hillary does, because by god it's the only thing that ever works.

* men, however, can throw ludicrous toddler tantrums and they're considered "passionate".
posted by winna at 10:10 AM on September 23, 2016 [54 favorites]

Point taken. In my experience ...
posted by argybarg at 10:10 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump "analytical"?
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:11 AM on September 23, 2016

In my view, Secretary Clinton is pushing very hard on the theme of inclusion. It was there at the convention, it runs through all the ads, and it's what she says. She is doing this in spite of the political convention that dem candidates need to reach out to white male steel workers.
It is interesting from the point of view of a foreign observer that this is not 100% obvious to some Americans.
This foreign observer also notes that the demographics Ms. Clinton is reaching out to are listening.
posted by mumimor at 10:14 AM on September 23, 2016 [32 favorites]

A Perfect Constitutional Storm
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:16 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

YES THANK YOU

I, too, tend to retreat to dry facts when I'm challenged at work, because if you show even the tiniest hint of feeling as a woman you lose instantly.* I completely understand the 'well if you don't believe ME, at least look at these OBJECTIVE STATEMENTS' being what Hillary does, because by god it's the only thing that ever works.

* men, however, can throw ludicrous toddler tantrums and they're considered "passionate".

You should see what The Sun said about Emma Watson.
posted by Talez at 10:17 AM on September 23, 2016

The Boss: Trump is a Moron

Fuck yeah. Looks like Trump wasn't... Born to Run.
posted by Talez at 10:20 AM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]

You should see what The Sun said about Emma Watson.

Ugh, why did I even click
posted by Existential Dread at 10:20 AM on September 23, 2016 [13 favorites]

Agreed. This is a fight of emotions and feelings.

The sexist double standard on this drives me nuts not only because it's a sexist double standard, but because my take runs completely counter to it. I'm a guy and I'm far more interested in electing someone who's analytical than someone whose primary approach to everything is emotional. I felt the same way about Dubya vs. Gore and then Kerry.

God damn it I want this to be about policy and it sucks that it plainly isn't.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:21 AM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

Cincinnati Enquirer breaks an almost hundred year old tradition of supporting Republicans and endorses Clinton for president.
posted by octothorpe at 10:21 AM on September 23, 2016 [51 favorites]

rocket88: "Yes, Donald, I find white supremacists like the KKK and Stormfront deplorable. Do you? And if you won't call them deplorable, what is your opinion of them?"

witchen: I can answer this based on conversations with my Trump-supporting family. If the answer isn't "yes, I wholeheartedly (or maybe with a few reservations) support the agendas of the KKK and Stormfront," it's that "there are always two sides to the story, and everyone's entitled to their opinions."

If you have the patience or composure to ask some follow-ups, I would suggest "What do you thinking of burning a cross on the lawn of a minority, multi-ethnic or Jewish family? Is that an 'opinion' someone is entitled to 'voice'? Or can it be your 'opinion' that minorities, people of other faiths, or women are lesser than white men, and a such, are to be treated as second-class citizens, such as in housing discrimination and wage disparity? At what point does an opinion become harmful to others?"
posted by filthy light thief at 10:22 AM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

I completely understand the 'well if you don't believe ME, at least look at these OBJECTIVE STATEMENTS' being what Hillary does, because by god it's the only thing that ever works.

quoted for absolute goddamn TRUTH. Even with men who have known me for years and tell me they have immense respect for me, I frequently have to back up my statements with outside evidence before they'll stop going "well, you might be right" or "well, i suppose that's possible" to anything I say. They don't even know they do it, either. That's the kicker. That's the fucking kicker.
posted by palomar at 10:23 AM on September 23, 2016 [53 favorites]

I have a relationship with a teen who is immersed in the chans. I asked him what his high school friends thought of Trump. Oh, he said, students love Trump. He is so funny
posted by angrycat at 10:28 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

chris24: Obama: "I think even most 8-year-olds will tell you that whole slavery thing wasn't very good for black people, Jim Crow wasn't very good for black people."

So Trump says America has never been worse for Black people, or that Mexicans are criminals and rapists, or whatever terrible thing he says that shows no comprehension of history or reality. All he has to do is add the preamble "As far as I can recall," or "As far as I can tell, [some BS]."

Of course, you can then say (quite rightly) that he appears to have no more memory than that of a goldfish who is thrilled to find a new castle every 10 seconds, and then rhetorically ask how he could keep straight which nation was an ally and which was a friend.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:29 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

I don't want this to derail into an emotional labor/mainsplaining discussion, but... wow yes, I am so damn sick of the trope where a woman says a statement of fact - any fact, no matter how simple or uncontroversial - and gets the immediate response of "oh yeah? PROVE IT."

Multiply x10 if she's running for office or pitching a business project.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:30 AM on September 23, 2016 [26 favorites]

Internet Archive: Presidential debate TV project to track candidates’ coverage

Presidential debates matter. Voters learn about presidential candidates and their stances on issues from debates and subsequent news coverage. Now, in a new collaboration, the Internet Archive and the Annenberg Public Policy Center aim to help journalists and the public better understand how television news shows present what happens in the debates in post-debate TV coverage. This includes which exchanges between the candidates get replayed on TV – and which do not get coverage – and how this affects public knowledge about issues from health care to immigration.

#NextPost
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:31 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

Donald Trump Doesn't Remember Saying He Has the "Best" Memory
posted by kirkaracha at 10:31 AM on September 23, 2016 [31 favorites]

quoted for absolute goddamn TRUTH. Even with men who have known me for years and tell me they have immense respect for me, I frequently have to back up my statements with outside evidence before they'll stop going "well, you might be right" or "well, i suppose that's possible" to anything I say. They don't even know they do it, either. That's the kicker. That's the fucking kicker.

posted by palomar at 10:23 AM on September 23 [−] [!]

This is largely why I don't have many men in my life, anymore. I just don't have the fucking energy to be constantly fighting a stream of bullshit, in any amount. I have used up nearly all sexist bullshit tolerance points, and if I decide to spend some of those remaining points, it's certainly not going to be for your benefit. It's going to be so I can watch some tv without losing my mind.

(I imagine chronic illness has something to do with my lack of tolerance for sexism, but no one should have to pay that gd tax every damn day.)
posted by schadenfrau at 10:32 AM on September 23, 2016 [18 favorites]

I completely understand the 'well if you don't believe ME, at least look at these OBJECTIVE STATEMENTS' being what Hillary does, because by god it's the only thing that ever works.


.... cannot keep myself from Nthing this ......
posted by Dashy at 10:32 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm a guy and I'm far more interested in electing someone who's analytical than someone whose primary approach to everything is emotional. I felt the same way about Dubya vs. Gore and then Kerry.

God damn it I want this to be about policy and it sucks that it plainly isn't.

What was the last presidential election that worked as you wish? Elections have been about ideals, images, emotions and personalities since the beginning.

It's a flat-out drag, but the electorate has never conducted their vote as a rational analysis of the cases being made. It isn't jury duty. Presidential candidates have either been able to conduct the emotional energy of voters or they haven't. Gore couldn't, Dukakis couldn't, Kerry couldn't, and so they underperformed. Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Roosevelt — people felt they knew, in the broad sense, what each was trying to do.

I actually do believe that Hillary will win, and that this nightmare election + time in office will lead more people to tune into the gracious, inclusive person I know her to be. But I still don't get the thesis statement of her candidacy.
posted by argybarg at 10:38 AM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

I have a relationship with a teen who is immersed in the chans. I asked him what his high school friends thought of Trump. Oh, he said, students love Trump. He is so funny

Does this kid happen to speak in a melange of English and Russian-derived slang?
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:40 AM on September 23, 2016 [18 favorites]

> a goldfish who is thrilled to find a new castle every 10 seconds

Oh man, I just love that.
posted by Surely This at 10:41 AM on September 23, 2016 [16 favorites]

Huh. Apparently you can register to vote via SnapChat (or text.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:42 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

I still don't get the thesis statement of her candidacy.

I think she should've embraced the whole "third term" thing. They want to hang Obama around her neck, but there's a mountain of evidence that Obamacare worked, the economy is far better off, etc. Make some charts, cite some figures, tell America that Yes We Did And We're Going to Keep On Doing. She's not running away from Obama obviously, but she could be more to message that Yes, Shit Is Actually Better Now.

Or it could be that she's doing that and we're just not seeing it break through the wall-to-wall Trump coverage, which seems to be hard for her to combat with a positive message. Probably its some of each.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:44 AM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

a goldfish who is thrilled to find a new castle every 10 seconds

Election (the movie) + Finding Dory?
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:44 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Or it could be that she's doing that and we're just not seeing it break through the wall-to-wall Trump coverage

This.
posted by zutalors! at 10:46 AM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]

Pope Guilty: "The Week posts an infuriating op/ed basically asking "Is open white supremacy really racist?""

Holy shit. You are not kidding. From the article (emph. added), a para where the author is mocking liberals' over-reaction to, well, I guess straight up racism and xenophobia:

Worried that the historically Christian and (more recently) secular character of European civilization will be altered for the worse, not to mention that its citizens will be forced to endure increasing numbers of theologically motivated acts of terrorism, if millions of refugees from Muslim regions of the world are permitted to settle in the European Union? Islamophobe!

Also, note how the author inserts the "not to mention" clause about terrorism in there to put some distance between the proposition that "European civilization will be altered for the worse" and what the cause of that is -- Muslim refugees settling in Europe.
posted by mhum at 10:48 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

Yeah that article is wall-to-wall white nationalist rhetoric and it's bizarre to see it posted by The Week instead of The Daily Stormer or Breitbart.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:49 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

She's not running away from Obama obviously, but she could be more to message that Yes, Shit Is Actually Better Now.

So: "Keep Up the Good Work, America!" I'd buy it. Other people would point out that (in their fractured misunderstanding) everything has gone to shit and Americans are mad about it and want everything smashed.
posted by argybarg at 10:51 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wife of Keith Scott, Charlotte Shooting Victim, Filmed Fatal Encounter With Police

Jesus Christ. Trump wants more of this. Pence doesn't want us to talk about this.

Fuck this election. Fuck it. Fuck it. Fuck it.
posted by Talez at 10:53 AM on September 23, 2016 [21 favorites]

From the article Donald Trump Jr. Is the Trump Campaign’s Worst Surrogate:. More from Digby

This explains a lot, actually. Candidate Trump keeps defending his own repeated use of antisemitic memes sourced from terrible corners of the web like 4chan. Looks as if his son may be the one supplying them.
posted by zarq at 10:53 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Change is probably always an easier sell than "more of the same". I'm sure that's part of it.
posted by misskaz at 10:53 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

"I have recently proposed raising the estate tax on the very wealthiest citizens of our nation. But don't worry Donald, you won't have to pay more as it only affects billionaires."

Oh, snap! I wish she'd say that.

She really is proposing an increase in the estate tax, too. Good.
posted by Gelatin at 10:53 AM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

Try 4 Risk-Free Issues
of The Week magazine.

I'd be risking more of this, so no thanks.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:57 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Cruz is apparently about to throw in the Nevertrump towel.

Maybe the threat of a Trump backed SuperPAC was too much to bear.
posted by Talez at 10:58 AM on September 23, 2016

Politico reporting that Ted Cruz will endorse Trump. Goddamn
posted by theodolite at 10:58 AM on September 23, 2016

Omarosa: 'Every Critic, Every Detractor, Will Have to Bow Down To Prez Trump' :

“Every critic, every detractor, will have to bow down to president Trump,” Manigault said. “It’s everyone who’s ever doubted Donald, who ever disagreed, who ever challenged him. It is the ultimate revenge to become the most powerful man in the universe.”

From a preview of an upcoming Frontline documentary, Inside the Night President Obama Took on Donald Trump.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:59 AM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

Asked about a possible endorsement, Jason Johnson, Cruz’s chief strategist on the campaign, responded with a photo of himself, with his hand over his face. [real]
posted by zakur at 11:00 AM on September 23, 2016 [20 favorites]

Cruz originally calculated that Trump had no chance of winning, so he had little to lose and much to gain by holding out. Now that the odds have shifted and the media has changed its narrative he doesn't see the same outcomes.

His "vote your conscience" was never about principle.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:01 AM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]

Ted Cruz has no principles, as we would understand the word.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:03 AM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]

Omarosa: 'Every Critic, Every Detractor, Will Have to Bow Down To Prez Trump' :

KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!
posted by infinitywaltz at 11:03 AM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

Greg Sargent: Trump should not be accorded credit for being less ignorant, unhinged, hateful, and dishonest than usual."

That statement needs to be tattooed backward on the foreheads of everyone covering the campaign.
posted by Gelatin at 11:04 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Thanks for the reminder to record that Frontline, kirkaracha.
posted by cashman at 11:04 AM on September 23, 2016

Be mad at Ted Cruz all you want but he has to do what's best for his thousands of glistening eggs.
posted by mightygodking at 11:05 AM on September 23, 2016 [15 favorites]

Donald Trump expands list of possible Supreme Court picks

Putting Sen. Mike Lee, R-Utah, on the list is a play for former rival Sen. Ted Cruz’s support and endorsement, as well as for the constitutional wing of the Tea Party conservatives. By putting Lee’s name on the list Trump is signaling to Lee (Cruz’s best friend in the Senate) and Cruz and their ilk that he’s serious about their issues. Lee’s placement on the list is conspicuous and can’t be withdrawn. It’s as big a public play as Trump can make.

Sen. Mike Lee shoots down Trump Supreme Court trial balloon

posted by zakur at 11:05 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

The video of the Scott shooting is horrifying. This poor family.
posted by schadenfrau at 11:05 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Anyone heard anything from corb recently?
posted by melissasaurus at 11:07 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

I hope Corb is having a martini right now.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:08 AM on September 23, 2016 [22 favorites]

Asked about a possible endorsement, Jason Johnson, Cruz’s chief strategist on the campaign, responded with a photo of himself, with his hand over his face.

Ha! Seriously, though, Cruz, what are you thinking??? You held out this long, only 46 days until Trump loses and vindication is yours!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:08 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

She really is proposing an increase in the estate tax, too. Good.

Should be no problem with the Trumps; I doubt they have enough money to trigger the top tax rate.
posted by ZeusHumms at 11:09 AM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

Lee (Cruz’s best friend in the Senate)

Lee would be the guy saying "Okay, boys, he's had enough" as the other Senators pummeled Cruz in the cloakroom.
posted by Etrigan at 11:11 AM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

Cruz has never been one for timing, long term thinking, or judgement. He does whatever will get him the most attention at any given moment.
posted by humanfont at 11:11 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Cruz: "After careful consideration, I've decided my Dad was involved in JFK's assassination after all" [fake-ish]
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:13 AM on September 23, 2016 [25 favorites]

Seriously, though, Cruz, what are you thinking???

Cruz is thinking that his "Trump gets clobbered in 2016, run in 2020 on the I Was Right All Along ticket" plan has gone to crap because the election appears like it will be a very close win for either side, and if Trump wins he's fucked, and if Trump loses it'll be so close that Cruz' 2020 strategy is fucked (assuming Trump doesn't just run again in 2020, which his surrogates are already saying he'll do if he loses).

Basically either way Ted Cruz is enfeebled and his Presidential aspirations are dead forever, so, you know. There's an upside here.
posted by mightygodking at 11:14 AM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]

Cruz: "On second thought, I don't love my wife. She's ugly, and those beans should be spilled. Go ahead Lord Trump" [also fake-ish].
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:15 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

It would be funny though if Cruz just was using this to give another version of his RNC convention speech. Trolling Trump is always a valuable exercise.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:17 AM on September 23, 2016 [13 favorites]

Anyone heard anything from corb recently?

She was looking for us last night, hopefully she shows up soon!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:19 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

I mean, Ted Cruz was willing to subject his children (and the nation) to Carly Fiorina's singing because he thought it could give him a momentary political advantage, and now we're surprised he'll do or say literally anything if he thinks it helps him get ahead?
posted by zachlipton at 11:20 AM on September 23, 2016

Precious Little Voter Needs to Feel Inspired by Candidate

"To be perfectly honest, I just can’t bring myself to vote for someone I’m not excited about,” said the delicate little flower, who simply has to experience an authentic and personal connection to a candidate and believe in his wittle-bitty heart that the candidate’s message will legitimately move the country forward in meaningful and significant ways.
posted by emjaybee at 11:21 AM on September 23, 2016 [46 favorites]

“Every critic, every detractor, will have to bow down to president Trump,” Manigault said. “It’s everyone who’s ever doubted Donald, who ever disagreed, who ever challenged him. It is the ultimate revenge to become the most powerful man in the universe.”

(Came for the "kneel before zod" comment, was not disappointed.)

This statement is problematic on so many levels and really demonstrates the whole "strongman" dynamic that is happening in this election. I mean, the system is supposed to include and involve critics and detractors, not force them to "bow down"; the health of a representative democracy comes from the fact that there is opposition and debate and so forth. It isn't about the President being able to crush his/her opponents and carve their bones into flutes for small children.

The fact that this even has to be pointed out at this point is just alarming.
posted by nubs at 11:23 AM on September 23, 2016 [26 favorites]

Cruz called a press conference, but when reporters arrived they found a sheet of paper on their chairs with a single line scrawled in blue magic marker:

WHhKMlltbGthbVZGWHBNN3A4TkJUUT09
posted by Tevin at 11:24 AM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

I'm moderately confounded by the idea that Trump's camp is already spreading the notion that if he loses in 2016 he'll run again. If (when, insh'Allah) he loses, the hardline core of deplorables and nazis might still clamor for him, but all the hangers-on who just like backing a winner will drop him completely. He'll have that loser-stink on him. Plus the Republicans, whatever is left of them, will have had 4 years to prepare and adjust, so we won't even get the built-in straight-R-ticket crowd either.
posted by penduluum at 11:25 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

I still don't get the thesis statement of her candidacy.

Honestly, this strikes me as an ivy-league level of privilege, as a complaint.

Her policy proposals are overall quite progressive. She is a strikingly accomplished workhorse. Her opponent is a *-ist joke guaranteed to cause harm, that 40+% are taking seriously, for some reason.

And you want a thesis?

I'll give you theses to read, if you'd like. They litter my office. I'm an experienced and successful grantwrangler myself, so I do indeed know what you mean by thesis.

I don't want another thesis on the pile. I want to lock her up in that oval office and get. shit. done.
posted by Dashy at 11:30 AM on September 23, 2016 [60 favorites]

> Anyone heard anything from corb recently?

Corb was lost, but hopefully she'll get through faster than Tehhund.
(Argh, dupe.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:35 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

> “Every critic, every detractor, will have to bow down to president Trump,” Manigault said. “It’s everyone who’s ever doubted Donald, who ever disagreed, who ever challenged him. It is the ultimate revenge to become the most powerful man in the universe.”

“I will wreak a terrible vengeance on this city country. No one will be spared. NO ONE.”
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:37 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

A thought:

What if all the media show up for Cruz' new endorsement speech on Friday and he slags Trump again?

"Donald Trump called me up and begged me to endorse him. I said sure, because I knew that Trump wouldn't bother to vet my remarks beforehand - you know, like he didn't do last time - and now I would like to read you a list of reasons why this tiny-handed dumbass shouldn't be President."

It's unlikely, but I have to think there's a non-zero chance this is possible. It is Ted Cruz we're talking about here.
posted by mightygodking at 11:37 AM on September 23, 2016 [20 favorites]

Someone tells me to bow down to DJT they're getting a Gigi Habid elbow to the face
posted by angrycat at 11:38 AM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

Staffer who works for @mike_pence's transport dept. sent this from his work email to NYT @CharlesMBlow

How dumb do you have to get to send that from a work email?
posted by Talez at 9:10

Back when I lived in the Hoosier state there was a running discussion about the missing 'I' in ID[I]OT.
posted by Fezboy! at 11:38 AM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

“I will wreak a terrible vengeance on this city country. No one will be spared. NO ONE.”

That game is no fun when you can quote every episode of the Simpsons verbatim.
posted by Talez at 11:38 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

"I've just received word that God Emperor Trump has dissolved the congress permanently. The last remnants of the Republic have been swept away" -- Grand Moff Chris Christie
posted by Talez at 11:40 AM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

I suspect someone is holding Cruz's horcruxes hostage. It's the only explanation.
posted by tclark at 11:41 AM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

Honestly, this strikes me as an ivy-league level of privilege, as a complaint.

It's not my complaint. I'm not pleading for anyone to heal my emotional wounds over this. I'm perfectly clear over who I intend to vote for.

I see it as a political fact that the candidates that do a good job of articulating a clear, unified notion of what they want to do, of what outcome they intend for their presidency, do better than those relying on long lists of policy proposals.

This is true, also, of speeches, job interviews, essays, documentaries — find an overarching idea, and pin your details to that. I wouldn't say it's easy, but it is what you ought to do. And it's a worthwhile exercise.

I get it: put all this off until later, times are too urgent. But I remember my own silent screams at John Kerry to find his note, to find his song to sing, and it never happened. By the time it was safe to discuss it, Bush was in his second term.
posted by argybarg at 11:42 AM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]

What if all the media show up for Cruz' new endorsement speech on Friday and he slags Trump again?

Perfect retribution for tricking the media into to a press conference on birthirism free infomercial on the newest Trump property. Cuts both ways, Donnie.
posted by Dashy at 11:42 AM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

I still don't get the thesis statement of her candidacy.

The thesis statement is "OMG we're this close to seeing everything turn to SHIT".

(I'm Hillary Clinton and I approve this message).
posted by vverse23 at 11:45 AM on September 23, 2016 [13 favorites]

Personally signed tweet: @HillaryClinton

Charlotte should release police video of the Keith Lamont Scott shooting without delay. We must ensure justice & work to bridge divides. -H
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:45 AM on September 23, 2016 [36 favorites]

US intel says a top Trump advisor went to Moscow and met with Kremlin head of collecting intel on US elections [real]
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:47 AM on September 23, 2016 [47 favorites]

A message from Grandma and Grandpa

posted by Mchelly at 11:49 AM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]

Tax Foundation on Clinton's 65% estate tax bracket proposal:

This means that, out of the 540 billionaires in the United States, many of them would not have a large enough taxable estate to be subject to Clinton’s billionaire tax, were they to pass away. In fact, I estimate that only 197 individuals have a large enough net worth, according to Forbes, such that they would report a taxable estate of more than $500 million to the IRS in the event of their death. [...]

Using the SSA actuarial tables, I estimate the probability of death in the next year for each of the 197 billionaires in question.[2] I find that the average billionaire in this group has a 3.6 percent chance of dying in the upcoming year. In other words, we should expect that only about seven estates would be subject to Clinton’s proposed billionaires’ tax in the first year of its enactment (or 3.6 percent × 197).

But, yeah, let's talk about "farmers" and "small business owners."
posted by melissasaurus at 11:50 AM on September 23, 2016 [30 favorites]

Did this get linked upthread already?

Jonathan Chait: Donald Trump Is a Lazy Idiot, Trump Campaign Tells New York Times

"There are two ways to read today’s New York Times report from Donald Trump’s debate preparations, or lack thereof. One is that Trump’s advisers are deliberately setting expectations at rock bottom ... A second possibility is that they have come to the horrifying realization that their candidate is delusional, uninformed, lazy, and utterly unsuited to the presidency, and they’re hoping without evidence that these traits can somehow be hidden from the viewing public.

The two possibilities are not mutually exclusive... "

It's a good read. What if ... what if the debate really is a wipe out for Trump? Will there be a second debate? Will there be (more) blood in the streets?
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:50 AM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

For your anxiety assuaging, however minor:

AP-GfK Poll: Majority of Americans Fear Trump Presidency

More than half the country fears a Trump presidency. And only about a third of Americans believe he is at least somewhat qualified to serve in the White House.

[M]ost voters oppose the hard-line approach to immigration that is a centerpiece of the billionaire businessman's campaign. They are more likely to trust Clinton to handle a variety of issues facing the country, and Trump has no advantage on the national security topics also at the forefront of his bid.

Only 29 percent of registered voters would be excited and just 24 percent would be proud should Trump prevail in November.

Only one in four voters find him even somewhat civil or compassionate, and just a third say he's not at all racist.

posted by zakur at 11:51 AM on September 23, 2016 [16 favorites]

Trump's thesis statement is "Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, *points at mirror* you're cool, and fuck you."
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:51 AM on September 23, 2016 [25 favorites]

US intel says a top Trump advisor went to Moscow and met with Kremlin head of collecting intel on US elections [real]

Wow. I literally cannot be surprised anymore.

"U.S. intelligence agencies have also received reports that Page met with another top Putin aide while in Moscow — Igor Diveykin. A former Russian security official, Diveykin now serves as deputy chief for internal policy and is believed by U.S. officials to have responsibility for intelligence collected by Russian agencies about the U.S. election, the Western intelligence source said."
posted by feloniousmonk at 11:52 AM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]

I guess the way I see it, is Clinton's intentions are too subtle and lack a unifying theme, while Trump's are authentically creepy and scary. We shall see which wins.
posted by argybarg at 11:54 AM on September 23, 2016

I guess the way I see it, is Clinton's intentions are too subtle and lack a unifying theme

Really? Stronger Together isn't a unifying theme? It's like, the most basic and obvious of themes.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:55 AM on September 23, 2016 [52 favorites]

Just to point out that, even if you believe the Charlotte PD's account of the Keith Scott shooting, they shot and killed a man who wasn't wanted for anything, wasn't involved in the situation they were there to pursue, was not in their way, had not approached them or acted suspiciously in any way in advance of them choosing to confront him, and was seated in his own vehicle, and the justification they give for killing him was because he had a gun... in an open carry state.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:55 AM on September 23, 2016 [90 favorites]

Kurt Eichenwald: Donald Trump either lied to the Republicans or broke the law

In their impeachment of President Bill Clinton for lying under oath about an extramarital affair, Republicans established the standard that failing to tell the truth while testifying—even in the most understandable of circumstances—rises to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors. Surely perjury for pecuniary purposes or to inflate one’s self-image cannot be ignored.

Finally, the lie here matters because it shows how shameless Trump is and how reckless. He told this lie even though he knew he was standing next to a credible witness—Bush—who could contradict him, and gambled that no one would discover his sworn testimony.

Trump’s penchant for this type of baldfaced lying could undermine American foreign policy—when he meets with a foreign official, will he try to deceive the world about what happened? That question already came into play in early September when Trump flew to Mexico to talk with that country’s president in a bizarre publicity stunt. He came out of the meeting and declared the two had never discussed his signature issue—that he would compel the Mexican government to pay for a wall along America’s southern border. Before an hour passed, a Mexican official declared that Trump’s statement was false, and that President Enrique Peña Nieto had told the Republican nominee that his country would never pony up the cash for the wall. Either Trump lied or Peña Nieto did. The government of Mexico—one of America’s most important trading partners and allies—knows whether a President Trump will be trustworthy or will lie out of convenience, on matters large or small. Shouldn’t the American public know the same before it votes in November?

posted by zombieflanders at 11:56 AM on September 23, 2016 [22 favorites]

> Politico reporting that Ted Cruz will endorse Trump. Goddamn

I believe there is a poem about a snake that can help one understand Cruz's behavior here.

I mean look is there anyone in the world at all surprised that Ted Cruz would do something self-serving and shitty? He's Ted Cruz. That's what he do.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:58 AM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

Stronger Together is a good theme, but not yet an idea of what she wants to do.
posted by argybarg at 11:59 AM on September 23, 2016

Stronger Together is a good theme, but not yet an idea of what she wants to do.

You really have no idea what she wants to do? Have you listened to any speeches or read any of her positions on various policy areas?
posted by zutalors! at 12:01 PM on September 23, 2016 [22 favorites]

Just to point out that, even if you believe the Charlotte PD's account of the Keith Scott shooting, they shot and killed a man who wasn't wanted for anything, wasn't involved in the situation they were there to pursue, was not in their way, had not approached them or acted suspiciously in any way in advance of them choosing to confront him, and was seated in his own vehicle, and the justification they give for killing him was because he had a gun... in an open carry state.

Furthermore, NC's gun laws actually require that if you do not have a concealed carry permit, and you have a gun in the car with you where you could potentially reach it, the gun must be visible. It would be illegal to have it in the glove box or in a backpack in the front seat.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:01 PM on September 23, 2016 [31 favorites]

‏@jesseltaylor on Twitter: BREAKING: STARSCREAM ENDORSES MEGATRON
posted by emjaybee at 12:01 PM on September 23, 2016 [15 favorites]

From the Chait piece linked above:

Trump is so ignorant there’s no point in even trying to teach him facts:

He believes debates are not won or lost on policy minutiae since most viewers will not remember them in an hour. His advisers see it as a waste of time to try to fill his head with facts and figures … Advisers are urging him to focus on big-picture themes rather than risk mangling facts.

I think they are completely correct to do this--we've overwhelming proof already that Trump's base does not care at all about facts or policy. We are well through the looking glass, and it scares the shit out of me.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 12:02 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

argybarg's goal posts are on wheels for easy moving
posted by aabbbiee at 12:03 PM on September 23, 2016 [39 favorites]

The MSNBC coverage of the Scott shooting, and Gov McCrory's terrible press conference, seems markedly different than previous shootings.

On air, we have the actual, horrifying footage, we have commentators agreeing that it looks like there was foul play and incompetence from the police, and then we have everyone agreeing that McCrory's response was "tone deaf" and indicative of the fact that "flooding is more important than a black man's life." And in the previous hour, a white, female anchor repeatedly making reference to how, even though she knows her experience as a white woman is not comparable to that of a black woman, she still cannot imagine the courage it took to shoot that footage.

This all feels like a sickening sort of progress. Like the coverage of Ferguson was very, very different.
posted by schadenfrau at 12:06 PM on September 23, 2016 [18 favorites]

If Trump's theme was "Stronger Together", we'd be saying "Donald Trump's theme is 'Stronger Together'".

But this is Hillary Clinton we're talking about, so instead it's "Yeah, but what's her theme? Like her theme theme?"
posted by vverse23 at 12:06 PM on September 23, 2016 [30 favorites]

> Politico reporting that Ted Cruz will endorse Trump. Goddamn

yeah and scabbers is actually peter pettigrew

woweee i'm shocked
posted by Tevin at 12:07 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

And rather than digging up arrest records or whatever the fuck, there's currently a talking head talking about how Keith Scott had been married for twenty five years, had seven kids. Just generally treating him like a human being.

I can't believe this registers as a change, but it does. I hope there is a goddamn sea change.
posted by schadenfrau at 12:08 PM on September 23, 2016 [33 favorites]

Stronger Together is a good theme, but it's passive. Build That Wall, Lock Her Up, etc. are active, pithy mission statements.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:09 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Listen, I'm in danger of becoming a target dummy here. I know we all need a generic anti-Hillary figure to vent at. That really isn't me, but if that's what people are determined to do I will withdraw.

I'm 100% in her camp. I think she will be an excellent president. I hope she wins. (Exit, pursued by multiple bears.)
posted by argybarg at 12:10 PM on September 23, 2016 [21 favorites]

I think they are completely correct to do this--we've overwhelming proof already that Trump's base does not care at all about facts or policy. We are well through the looking glass, and it scares the shit out of me.

So, here's the counterpoint - his base isn't enough to give him the win. He's never formally taken the lead in the polls, and he seems to cap out in the lower 40s. He needs to bring other people into the fold, and those people do care about policy (otherwise, they would already be in his camp.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:10 PM on September 23, 2016 [13 favorites]

Republicans established the standard that failing to tell the truth while testifying—even in the most understandable of circumstances—rises to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors.

Precedents only apply to Democrats, silly! (Or don't exist, as the case may be.)
posted by kirkaracha at 12:16 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

He believes debates are not won or lost on policy minutiae since most viewers will not remember them in an hour.

They will indeed. Fortunately, we have some kind of newfangled tech thingy to help them remember those details and advise them in considering which may be most relevant to their life circumstances. Trump may not be up on recent changes in communications methodology, but surely some of his advisors have heard about "the press."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:16 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

* breathes into paper bag *

Thanks, NoxAeternum, that is good perspective

* breathes into paper bag *
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 12:17 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

Just 2 months ago Governor Pat McCrory signed a bill which blocks releasing police video

Citing a desire to balance "public trust" with the rights and safety of law enforcement officers, North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory signed legislation this week that blocks the release of law enforcement recordings from body cameras or dashboard cameras with limited exceptions.
Surrounded by uniformed officers from across the state, McCrory signed House Bill 972 on Monday in a news conference in Raleigh. The Republican governor said the new law will promote "uniformity, clarity and transparency" by establishing clear standards and procedures for releasing law enforcement recordings.

Critics, including the state's attorney general, said it could have the opposite effect of minimizing police accountability.
"Technology like dashboard cameras and body cameras can be very helpful, but when used by itself technology can also mislead and misinform, which causes other issues and problems within our community," McCrory said.

[my bold]

The state's attorney general is Roy Cooper who is running against McCrory for Governor.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:24 PM on September 23, 2016 [15 favorites]

Lest we forget....

@MatthewNussbaum: Things Cruz called Trump: -"pathological liar" -"serial philanderer" -"utterly amoral" -"sniveling coward" And, soon, his choice for POTUS
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:28 PM on September 23, 2016 [21 favorites]

Like Cruz! And the NRO! And allllll the other horrible republicans that are about to come snurfling up to his loafers like cowering alley-fed beagles over the course of the next month.

Except that they're with him for the most part. Basically, Trump's base can be divided into reactionary true believers who see Trump as their time to shine; and conservatives who fear the ways that Clinton could reshape the government against them, especially at SCOTUS.

The problem is those two groups alone don't get you over the finish line anymore. 2012 proved that. And Trump has been doing everything he can to alienate other demographics, while killing their apathy.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:29 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's a flat-out drag, but the electorate has never conducted their vote as a rational analysis of the cases being made. It isn't jury duty

I think I spotted somebody who's never served on a jury.
posted by one_bean at 12:29 PM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]

Also...from July 22

Donald Trump: I wouldn't accept Ted Cruz's endorsement

Ted Cruz won't endorse Donald Trump, but the Republican nominee said Friday he wouldn't take the support even if the Texas senator offered.
"If he gives it, I will not accept it," Trump said at a news conference in Cleveland at the close of the Republican National Convention.

"I don't want his endorsement," he added. "Just, Ted, stay home, relax, enjoy yourself."
He also suggested that if Cruz were to seek the White House, he would set up a super PAC to oppose him.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:32 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

cowering alley-fed beagles

Flagged for impugning the honor and integrity of the noble and majestic beagle. Earl the puggle is also less than enthused that you have disgraced the name of half of his ancestors.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:32 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

Speaking of theses: Donald Trump and Freshman Essays [Abby Rabinowitz, a Columbia writing instructor, for Guernica]
posted by melissasaurus at 12:33 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

@MiCalderone: Trump’s given over two hours of Fox News/Fox Biz interviews since birther announcement. It hasn’t come up:

Huh. Must be an oversight or possibly a coincidence.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:35 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Cruz announced that he's voting for Trump.

I'm sorry, corb.
posted by schadenfrau at 12:36 PM on September 23, 2016 [18 favorites]

Cruz's official endorsement [real]
posted by zombieflanders at 12:36 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Donald Trump: I wouldn't accept Ted Cruz's endorsement

I can't be arsed to look up where I saw this, but I recall at some point immediately after Trump clinched the nomination, someone observed that Trump was basically negging the rest of the GOP field into endorsing him. And would you look at who just answered Trump's metaphorical 3 AM booty-call?
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:39 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's a flat-out drag, but the electorate has never conducted their vote as a rational analysis of the cases being made. It isn't jury duty.

I've served jury duty, and I can assure you that neither is jury duty a rational analysis of the cases being made. It can hinge on irrational emotions as well.

(In my case, we had jurors who refused to find the defendant guilty but mentally ill -- though they acknowledged he was in fact mentally ill, that such a verdict would mandate treatment for his illness while incarcerates, and that the finding carried no reduction in sentence at all -- because they wanted to "send a message."

Yes, the defendant was black.

(And obviously guilty; in the initial poll, not a one of us voted innocent on any of the charges. The entire question was whether to find him guilty but mentally ill; we eventually compromised by finding him guilty on some charges and guilty but mentally ill on others. We were told later that even one of the mentally ill verdicts would trigger the mandatory treatment, which was a relief.)
posted by Gelatin at 12:39 PM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

Maybe Trump has promised to keep Cruz's thousands of glistening eggs safe.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:39 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also, I don't think Cruz's announcement indicates that he think Trump will win. I think it indicates that he thinks Trump and Trumpism is now the definite future of the Republican Party.
posted by schadenfrau at 12:40 PM on September 23, 2016 [13 favorites]

Ted Cruz gives us all a reason to talk about him again.
posted by zutalors! at 12:42 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

How I picture corb and other #NeverTrump people right now.
posted by melissasaurus at 12:43 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump camp: Clinton cramming her head with ‘microchips and binders’ for debate

Um, I think that was Romney.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:44 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Kellyanne Conway worked for Cruz before he quit the race. I wonder if she was the peace broker. Maybe there was some sort of deal made?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:44 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well, today is the first day of the astrological sign Libra, and Cruz and Trump do kind of balance each other out and Cruz is the Zodiac Killer.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:46 PM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

Kellyanne Conway worked for Cruz before he quit the race. I wonder if she was the peace broker. Maybe there was some sort of deal made?

This is Cruz setting himself up to run against Clinton in 2020: "I hate her so much that I even worked with Donald Trump."
posted by Etrigan at 12:47 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think it indicates that he thinks Trump and Trumpism is now the definite future of the Republican Party.

I have to find out where my people are going so I can lead them!
posted by cmfletcher at 12:47 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

Argybarg: From a certain perspective, I can see what you are saying - The reality of it doesn't seem to be so much that Clinton doesn't have a "thesis" per se. But I do think it is largely getting lost in terms of media coverage, because they are too busy criticizing her for whatever possible thing that they can. The lack of the coverage here is - in my opinion - no fault of the Clinton campaign, and I am not sure what action they can take that will get any other news coverage than "Clinton: Can she really be trusted?" or some variant thereof.

You may not be seeing the "thesis" overtly, and it may not be spread out through the various media venues or social networking, but there is the basic theme of "better together" as well as several very specific themes, statements, sound bites and so on that are most definitely present. They are, however, lost in the noise of whatever horrible thing Trump has done, emails, foundation, and "favorability"

Now if you really believe that the campaign doesn't have this, then all I can say is that you are not seeing or hearing it - perhaps through no direct fault of your own. And unfortunately (and to your point) I have a feeling that many others are not as well. But I honestly do not see what the campaign itself can do differently to remedy this, given the positive glee that so many venues seem to take in hostile coverage of Clinton.
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:48 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Sitting on a fence on a Friday afternoon
Going to the candidates debate
Laugh about it, shout about it
When you've got to choose
Everyway you look at this you lose

Where have you gone Ted Cruz-eo?
Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you
What's that you say Mr. Rubio?
Lyin' Ted has folded and gone away
Hey hey hey
posted by nubs at 12:48 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

How I picture corb and other #NeverTrump people right now.

i mean isn't everyone in this thread a nevertrump person
posted by beerperson at 12:49 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

For California people: CA propositions in haiku form
posted by zachlipton at 12:50 PM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

Trump camp: Clinton cramming her head with ‘microchips and binders’ for debate

"Gangster Computer God Worldwide Secret Containment Policy made possible solely by Worldwide Computer God Frankenstein Controls," Conway said. "The Computer God Operating Cabinet has many robot arms, with electrical and laser beam knife robot arms. With fly-eye TV cameras watching your whole body, every part of you is monitored - even through your Frankenstein Controls," she added.
posted by theodolite at 12:50 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

I would suspect that this is the result of whatever threats Reince Priebus made (e.g., possibly, anyone who doesn't endorse Trump won't be invited to the Republican primary debates in 2020.)
posted by kyrademon at 12:51 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Cruz is my Houston home town boy. It will be interesting to see how he positions himself. I don't get the feeling that he is very popular here, for some reason. He is also up for reelection in 2018. Then the fact that he has not covered himself with glory during his first term in the Senate may become important. His self-promotion and unwillingness to play well with others is apparent. Then there is the strong possibility that if he is reelected he will just about immediately begin to push for the 2020 Presidential nomination.

So, Ted Cruz has not been representing his constituents very well, and he is not likely to change that. "Do your job", he has been told.
posted by Midnight Skulker at 12:51 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump is dining on Cruz spine tonight (metaphorically unfortunately).
posted by diogenes at 12:52 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Politico reporting that Ted Cruz will endorse Trump. Goddamn

Kasich cackles gleefully and crosses another name off his list of 2020 competitors.
posted by sallybrown at 12:52 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

Holy shit. This is a hell of a lot of Trump's lies all in one place: Clinton Campaign: Trump Cannot Pass Debate Test If He Repeats These Debunked Lies
posted by marshmallow peep at 12:53 PM on September 23, 2016 [25 favorites]

Gangster Computer God Worldwide Secret Containment Policy

Half shark-alligator, half man.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 12:54 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Rand Paul is probably pleased about his 2020 prospects, too.
posted by stolyarova at 12:54 PM on September 23, 2016

And my guess is that we can add "I wouldn't accept Ted Cruz's endorsement" to the list pretty soon.
posted by marshmallow peep at 12:55 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Can we just back up for a second? Trump thinks Mike Lee, Cruz's sidekick in the Senate for crazy things no other Senator will get behind, is qualified to be on the Supreme Court?
posted by zachlipton at 12:56 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Ted Cruz, Paul Ryan - showing the world what a Republican means when they stand for something.

Nothing. They stand for nothing.
posted by hilaryjade at 12:57 PM on September 23, 2016 [23 favorites]

Cruz announced that he's voting for Trump.

It gets worse ... Kim Kardashian is considering voting for Trump. Does a Tweeted selfie and hashtag mean nothing these days?
posted by Doktor Zed at 12:57 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

But more seriously, if Kasich caves, then I will move from "fear of Trump victory" (too scared to have been keeping up with these threads) to "extreme terror of Trump victory." Cruz caving is not a great sign, but Kasich caving would be like the point in a scary movie when the water in the glass starts shaking.
posted by sallybrown at 12:58 PM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]

Can we just back up for a second

Nope. My faith in humanity has suffered enough damage from this election running over it full throttle; there's no need to back up over the corpse.
posted by nubs at 12:58 PM on September 23, 2016 [13 favorites]

theodolite, I'd vote for Francis Dec before Trump.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:59 PM on September 23, 2016

It gets worse ... Kim Kardashian is considering voting for Trump.

I believe this is called "the narcissist celebrity's nuclear option when Brangelina's divorce takes the spotlight away."
posted by sallybrown at 1:03 PM on September 23, 2016 [16 favorites]

Mod note: Punks gotta punk out. At least Cruz's endorsement restores some balance to the universe. It was feeling weird having even an iota of admiration for something he did.

"I just acquired a habit of people who attack my wife and attack my father."
fake, but true on the inside
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 1:03 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think that what argybarg is trying to say is that "Stronger Together" is more of a feel-good slogan than an action plan.

Which is indeed true - "Stronger Together" is not as active a rallying cry as "Make America Great Again". There is no verb in the phrase "Stronger Together". And argybarg kind of has a point, if you think about it - think how much more punchy "Stronger Together" would sound if you added the words "We Are" at the front of that. Shit, I was already on Hillary's camp and I think that "We Are Stronger Together" would make way more sense as a slogan.

The thing is, though - argybarg, there are lots of politicians who haven't chosen as active a slogan themselves either. One of Reagan's catchphrases was "Morning in America", which doesn't really tell you much about his "theme" either. He just had the backing to overcome that. So - I'm not so sure that your complaint is so much about her campaign lacking a theme, so much as it is that her campaign is lacking a well-written slogan. Those are two different things.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:03 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Heh. TPM Headline: Complyin' Ted
posted by nubs at 1:09 PM on September 23, 2016 [23 favorites]

It gets worse ... Kim Kardashian is considering voting for Trump.

“At first I thought, ‘Oh my God, I’m so Hillary [Clinton]’, but I had a long political call with Caitlyn last night about why she’s voting Trump. I’m on the fence”

Sounds like Caitlyn is not on the fence anymore.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:09 PM on September 23, 2016

Can I vote for this as a slogan?
posted by kyrademon at 1:10 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

The thing is, though - argybarg, there are lots of politicians who haven't chosen as active a slogan themselves either.

"Blaine, Blaine, James G. Blaine, The Continental Liar from the State of Maine" - Grover Cleveland

"Not Just Peanuts" - Jimmy Carter
posted by phunniemee at 1:11 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Kim Kardashian is considering voting for Trump.

Perhaps she thinks 4 more years of Obama means Hillary will call her husband a jackass.
posted by cmfletcher at 1:11 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

There is no verb in the phrase "Stronger Together". And argybarg kind of has a point, if you think about it - think how much more punchy "Stronger Together" would sound if you added the words "We Are" at the front of that. Shit, I was already on Hillary's camp and I think that "We Are Stronger Together" would make way more sense as a slogan.

I like that her non-verb slogan is a subtle reminder that she's actually the stronger person and stronger candidate in this race.

Hillary Clinton: Stronger [...]
posted by melissasaurus at 1:11 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

wonder what Sarah Jessica Parker thinks about Kim Kardashian now

i have reached that stage of stress where all I can do is make goofy pop cultural references, apparently. sorry
posted by angrycat at 1:14 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump has always been at war with found Ted Cruz brilliant.
posted by Talez at 1:15 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

I think that what argybarg is trying to say is that "Stronger Together" is more of a feel-good slogan than an action plan.

But it is an action plan. The premise is that America is stronger when we're together, so she's proposing policies that make people stronger, which will help us be more together. That's been the narrative all along. Raising the minimum wage, helping people afford child care, not breaking up families with deportations, making college more affordable, etc...: these are policies that make people, and thus the country, stronger...together.
posted by zachlipton at 1:16 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

Cruz went Trump because his polls numbers in Texas cratered.
posted by chris24 at 1:16 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

Basically, Cruz just failed the marshmallow test at the last minute. Meanwhile, Kasich is still on track to have that marshmallow upgraded to a cookie.
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 1:17 PM on September 23, 2016 [38 favorites]

There is no verb in the phrase "Stronger Together". And argybarg kind of has a point, if you think about it - think how much more punchy "Stronger Together" would sound if you added the words "We Are" at the front of that. Shit, I was already on Hillary's camp and I think that "We Are Stronger Together" would make way more sense as a slogan.

Common misunderstanding -- it's actually Stronger To Get Her.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:17 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Gotta love that editor's note at the end of the Kardashian piece:

Editor’s note: Donald Trump regularly incites political violence and is a serial liar,rampant xenophobe, racist, misogynist and birther who has repeatedly pledged to ban all Muslims — 1.6 billion members of an entire religion — from entering the U.S.

the narcissist celebrity's

I believe the accepted label now is "successful business person".
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:20 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

I know we all need a generic anti-Hillary figure to vent at.

Argy, I appreciate that you're pro-Hillary, but there is absolutely an entire stream of "well if she would only ................" half-baked so-called support out there.

It's part of the double standard: Nothing Hillary can do is -ever- enough, for a whole bunch of the electorate. No matter how nuanced her policy is, someone will pop up to say "that's nice, but what if it were this shade of sagebrush, instead of just sage?" The goal posts are always moving.

And it's outright ridiculous hipster handwringing, on its own, let alone compared to the standards to which Trump is (not) held to (at all, ever, by anyone).

With what's at stake this year -- basic human rights for, well, many if not most of us -- this is not the time to debate the use of adjectives against verbs, or whether her thesis is clear enough to you.
posted by Dashy at 1:22 PM on September 23, 2016 [22 favorites]

Kasich's best political move at this point is to not endorse. No one will blame him if Trump loses (Except maybe Trump) and it will set him apart from nearly every other possible future nominee.
posted by drezdn at 1:22 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

That note's on every Hufffington Post Trump piece.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:23 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

Honestly, this strikes me as an ivy-league level of privilege, as a complaint.

I disagree, and I think Argy-Bargy is on to something. I really think it's odd that people here think the Clinton campaign is doing a good job of articulating why people should vote for her. For those saying she's subtle and nuanced, that's the problem. It's not a subtle or nuanced electorate or election right now. So far the best reason that my friends will say when we're in a bar crying about the election is because she's not Trump, which is a fantastic reason, but like I said up thread it feels very very Brexit-y and that's scary.
posted by cell divide at 1:24 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

you know the "We Are Stronger Together" idea has given me the notion that "We Are Family" would actually make a damn good counter to Trump's white nationalist stuff. Reasons:

1. It presents an idea of American identity as predicated on inclusion, love, and mutual support rather than exclusion and hate.
2. It's stuck in your head now.

posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:25 PM on September 23, 2016 [38 favorites]

Kasich's best political move at this point is to not endorse. No one will blame him if Trump loses (Except maybe Trump) and it will set him apart from nearly every other possible future nominee.

Nobody cares anymore though. The next primary debate comes up, what? "You endorsed Trump!" "No I didn't!". We're entirely post facts now. What someone did or didn't do is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what you can convince people to believe is reality and how many of them you can convince that your reality is the correct reality.
posted by Talez at 1:25 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

With what's at stake this year -- basic human rights for, well, many if not most of us -- this is not the time to debate the use of adjectives against verbs, or whether her thesis is clear enough to you.

I can't speak for Argy Bargy but I'm talking about winning the election here, not about my personal level of understanding her thesis.
posted by cell divide at 1:26 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Nobody punishes inconsistency. Nobody looks at nuance. The press, bar a dozen committed people actually in a position to do anything about it, don't give a shit. It's all about who can yell the loudest, the longest, and the most profanely.
posted by Talez at 1:27 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

So far the best reason that my friends will say when we're in a bar paling about the election is because she's not Trump

yabut the reason that's as far as they're willing to go isn't because she didn't come up with a sufficiently punchy slogan.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:27 PM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]

Clinton is not really trying to connect with messaging in the same way that Obama did with "yes we can." I think her approach is less to inspire with rhetoric and more to make as many individual personal connections as possible. She hasn't really addressed many of these messages to the typical upper middle white demo, but she has selected a broad range of different groups and targeted them. We'll see how this plays out, but I think it's an interesting strategy because it seems to me that people who are convinced because they had a moment where they felt like she was speaking directly to them are much more thoroughly convinced than those who hear a catchy line and get hooked. This ties back into the "she's a good listener" idea.
posted by feloniousmonk at 1:28 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

> I really think it's odd that people here think the Clinton campaign is doing a good job of articulating why people should vote for her.
I think people deciding on who to vote for based on a slogan are a lost cause anyway.
posted by farlukar at 1:28 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

SLOGAN: FUCK THAT SHIT.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:30 PM on September 23, 2016 [20 favorites]

> Nobody punishes inconsistency. Nobody looks at nuance. The press, bar a dozen committed people actually in a position to do anything about it, don't give a shit. It's all about who can yell the loudest, the longest, and the most profanely.

okay but also what if we treat this as a statement of fact without moral valences, rather than as something filled with implicit "should"s?

Like what if we take it as a given that it's all about who can yell the loudest, the longest, and the most profanely, and then what if we try to do good things with the society we have — under "loudest-longest-profanest wins" rules — rather than mourning for the society we don't, one that has rules that work differently?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:31 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

NAZIS FUCK OFF
posted by Artw at 1:31 PM on September 23, 2016 [42 favorites]

I'm having trouble understanding what Cruz thinks he's accomplishing. His brand is "Christian far right conservative willing to stand up to his own party," and of course recently that's meant holding out against Trump. Presumably few of his supporters will be swayed by his endorsement, which seems to be backed up by the feedback from them on social media. It's pretty much a total fuck you to everyone in his base, a much, much bigger fuck you than it would have been had he endorsed at the convention or earlier because he seemed to be the confirmed anti-Trump guy.

It seems exceedingly risky to make a cynical gamble designed to avoid retaliation against him by Trump, Reince Priebus, and Trump's supporters at the cost of alienating most of the people who already like him, especially since it doesn't guarantee that those folks will make peace with him. Trump doesn't seem like the sort of person who'd welcome him back into the fold. Sure, he put out a statement, but you know Trump will hold a grudge.

If Trump loses and Trumpism doesn't become the ruling party ideology, Cruz is more fucked than he would have been. Even if Trumpism dominates, he's always have the stench of betrayal (and it's not clear how well Trumpism works electorally without having Big Bad Hillary as the alternative and without Trump's personality cult - after all the Trumpists who challenged more mainstream Republicans in the primaries all got destroyed). If Trump wins, who knows? He'll still look terrible. Nothing he does is going to fix his carefully cultivated brand. People of every stripe of Republican ideology will presumably see him as a weasel and a flip-flopper. He'll be primaried by people who never supported Trump who will denounce his reckless hypocrisy, and/or by people who did support Trump who will denounce his insufficient loyalty.
posted by vathek at 1:32 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

I can't speak for Argy Bargy but I'm talking about winning the election here, not about my personal level of understanding her thesis.
And I think people are responding from the premise that perhaps the woman who has been in politics for 30+ years (and her very experienced staff and internal polling), who is and has been leading in the polls, might actually know what she's doing. It's the implication (intended or otherwise) that she and her campaign are too dumb/elitist/female/whatever to win the election.

I'm terrified and anxious about the prospect of a Trump presidency too, and am doing my part to make sure that doesn't happen. But I trust that Clinton and her team, if nothing else, know way more about politics and campaigning and media than I do. I choose to trust their expertise, because I also want my expertise in my field to be trusted.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:34 PM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]

You Can't Tip a Buick: you know the "We Are Stronger Together" idea has given me the notion that "We Are Family" would actually make a damn good counter to Trump's white nationalist stuff. Reasons:

1. It presents an idea of American identity as predicated on inclusion, love, and mutual support rather than exclusion and hate.
2. It's stuck in your head now.

I'd add a third item: Bernard Edwards and Nile Rodgers are unlikely to object if the Clinton campaign wants to use that song.
posted by Surely This at 1:34 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

> NAZIS FUCK OFF

so I was thinking "I should probably get back to work instead of dicking around on the godforsaken metafilter election thread, but the work I have to do is the most absolute tedious form of editing possible, so I'm just going to hang around here until I can think of something to listen to that will keep my ADHD-ey brain satisfied while I do tedious work."

but now I know exactly what I should be listening to.

so now I guess I should get back to work.

gosh. thanks.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:35 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

I agree with argybargy and cell divide, despite liking the sounds of "Stronger Together." The problems are (1) it's human nature to prefer easy solutions, (2) people often fall for con men, (3) Trump is a con man promising an easy solution to an unspecified problem.

Trump's message, as conveyed in his slogan: America was great (in an unspecified way); it is no longer great (in an unspecified way); pull the lever for me and you (YOU! PERSONALLY!) are taking action to make America great again. Voting for Trump = making America great. It's a "want America to be great?" Y/N question. This is a big goddamn lie, of course. But people buy into lies all the time. And it even lets people fill in their own scapegoats for America no longer being great.

Clinton's message, as conveyed in her slogan: America (or "we" in general) is stronger when we come together; if we all work together, we can make America stronger. Because she is not a liar, she is not saying "Voting for me automatically makes America strong" or "If you don't vote for me, you want America to be weak and suck!!!" the way Trump is.

I guess I think it's a problem that would be inherent to this cycle regardless of Clinton's slogan, because Clinton isn't willing, or really even able, to lie the way Trump is, which is a con man's way of lying. But it is a problem.
posted by sallybrown at 1:35 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

No one votes "because of a slogan". Slogans work because they easily communicate an entire message that resonates with a large bloc of people.

NAZIS FUCK OFF

Exactly.
posted by cell divide at 1:35 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

About her messaging---did you all read the analysis piece in the LA Times? She's been out telling her story--the reason you and the rest of America don't know it is because It's not being reported.
posted by Sublimity at 1:38 PM on September 23, 2016 [51 favorites]

Like what if we take it as a given that it's all about who can yell the loudest, the longest, and the most profanely, and then what if we try to do good things with the society we have — under "loudest-longest-profanest wins" rules — rather than mourning for the society we don't, one that has rules that work differently?

Because then we'll get President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho.
posted by Talez at 1:40 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

The new Gravis Marketing Poll - setup by Breitbart to unscrew those damn skewed MSM polls - has Clinton up 4, 44-40.
posted by chris24 at 1:41 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm terrified and anxious about the prospect of a Trump presidency too, and am doing my part to make sure that doesn't happen. But I trust that Clinton and her team, if nothing else, know way more about politics and campaigning and media than I do. I choose to trust their expertise, because I also want my expertise in my field to be trusted.


We're in the same boat, I can't help but keeping looking at the parallels of the Brexit vote. They remain side also knew what they were doing. They also had the best of the best experts in media and campaigning on their side. And they lost to "unpopular" people with support on the fringes. Jeb! started with $100m and every connection in the book and the best advisors know to man...

I have zero doubts that Clinton would make a fantastic US President. She has every tool at her disposal and has the mind, the experience, and the temperament to be effective and popular. But this campaign is different, and it's not mollifying to be reminded that she's a pro, and everyone she's working with is a pro.

she's been out telling her story--the reason you and the rest of America doesn't know it is because It's not being reported.

Which means it's a doomed strategy. If American doesn't know about it, it's not working.
posted by cell divide at 1:41 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

"We Are Family" would actually make a damn good counter to Trump's white nationalist stuff

YES this would be amazing. I got all my sisters with me.
posted by sallybrown at 1:41 PM on September 23, 2016 [22 favorites]

Trump's thesis statement is "Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, *points at mirror* you're cool, and fuck you."
posted by The Card Cheat

For about twenty years now a small circle of my friends has asked people "do you like puppets?" when we couldn't say what we really wanted to them.

I could die happy if Clinton asked Trump if he liked puppets.
posted by phearlez at 1:43 PM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

i mean isn't everyone in this thread a nevertrump person

Nevertrumpers are diehard Republicans who would be delighted to vote for Ted Cruz.
posted by JackFlash at 1:43 PM on September 23, 2016

But this campaign is different

If the election ends up the way the polls are looking now (and have been looking for a while), then this campaign won't have turned out to be very different at all.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:43 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

>> Like what if we take it as a given that it's all about who can yell the loudest, the longest, and the most profanely, and then what if we try to do good things with the society we have — under "loudest-longest-profanest wins" rules — rather than mourning for the society we don't, one that has rules that work differently?

> Because then we'll get President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho.

Rhetoric is a skill. Smart people who are serious about using their intelligence to match the message they send to the audience they're attempting to sway will beat stupid people who don't have the inclination or capacity to take rhetoric seriously, even when the audience being addressed is stupid.

The only way what I said leads to what you said is if smart people (or maybe more accurately "smart" people, with quotes like that) are too high on their own self-regard to bring themselves to take the hard work of persuasion seriously.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:44 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

I just did the Facebook "are you registered" thing that they are pushing right now. (For those not on FB, it's placing an "Are you registered" graphic and link in everyone's feed and you can click a button to either register/check your registration or post to your friends that you are registered to vote. You can add your own commentary if you'd like.)

I wrote a bit about how important I think voting is and how especiallly important this election feels, and I added #strongertogether to my post to see how it felt as a slogan. Felt pretty damn good. I think it has power, if supporters choose to use it.
posted by misskaz at 1:44 PM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

Clinton's message, as conveyed in her slogan: America (or "we" in general) is stronger when we come together; if we all work together, we can make America stronger.

This is the message in the script that the campaign gives me when I'm phone banking. We're not calling for money or votes; we're calling to ask people to volunteer. The main reason that I decided to volunteer for the campaign wasn't because Trump is an unthinkable candidate (though that's a great motivator too), but because the message of Clinton's campaign has been so inclusive -- that government is stronger with a chorus of voices from all kinds of people.

If you're not getting the message, I wonder if it's because Clinton is addressing a much wider audience than you're a part of.
posted by gladly at 1:47 PM on September 23, 2016 [14 favorites]

What, do you think Obama's team was all, hey, try a punchy slogan and HRC's camp was no! The only thing that can beat Trump is subtlety! And nuance!

That just doesn't scan for me.
posted by angrycat at 1:48 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Looked at from purely a marketing perspective, Clinton's slogan, catch-phrase, whatever, isn't as targeted as Trump's. Which makes sense, because Clinton is trying to be inclusive -- her target is everybody . Trump's target is dumbfuck racist, sexist xenophobes, so his messages have to be more targeted.

It's also harder for Clinton because everybody has a lot of different (and occasionally opposing) wants and needs, whereas dumbfuck racist, sexist xenophobes have relatively few: "Build a wall!" "Lock her up!" "Make America White Great Again!" -- checkmark, done.

It would be great if there were some kind of universal "Where are we going?" "Planet 10!" war cry that would energize and unite all progressives and liberals, but for now we're basically stuck with "What don't you want?" "A Dumbfuck Racist, Sexist Xenophobe in the Oval Office!"

Luckily, it looks like that one is working for a slight majority of us. At least for the moment.
posted by kythuen at 1:49 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

also Idiocracy has some seriously dumb Charles Murray Bell Curve bullshit going on, and probably shouldn't be used as an anti-Trumpist touchstone.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:50 PM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

Phil Fish is trying to redeem himself.

Polytron is dropping all Oculus development.
posted by Talez at 1:52 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

> Because then we'll get President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho.

Hey hey hey now. President Camacho might not be a pansy <slur> but at least he recognized that his country needed help, recognized that the pansy <slur> would be able to help the country, and then stepped aside for the person who could help his country.

Also, President Camacho is in much better shape, has better hair, and has really big hands.
posted by porpoise at 1:52 PM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

she's been out telling her story--the reason you and the rest of America doesn't know it is because It's not being reported.

Which means it's a doomed strategy. If American doesn't know about it, it's not working

Bullshit. Because of the electoral college and the degree of our partisan divide, she only has to win swing states. Her strategy doesn't have to scale.
posted by schadenfrau at 1:53 PM on September 23, 2016

i have reached that stage of stress where all I can do is make goofy pop cultural references, apparently. sorry
posted by angrycat

Don't be. I was disappointed that very few were making snarky Buffy the Vampire Slayer jokes during the Republican convention. (The eponymous show placed a gateway to Hell (Hellmouth) in Cleveland in passing). At least no one is making references to The Music Man.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:54 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

the message of Clinton's campaign has been so inclusive -- that government is stronger with a chorus of voices from all kinds of people.

If you're not getting the message, I wonder if it's because Clinton is addressing a much wider audience than you're a part of.

Yeah, I'm loving her slogan and her message of inclusiveness -- not just the phrasing or what she says in speeches, but the actual inclusiveness of her campaign staff and advertisements and the convention. No one is a token, they're just being who they are and doing their jobs. And they're working for her, mostly from what I've seen, because she at some point personally took an interest in their lives and stayed in contact with them over many years. I don't know what to tell you if that message doesn't resonate with you. It resonates very strongly with me and is a very clear contrast to the ethos of the Trump campaign.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:54 PM on September 23, 2016 [27 favorites]

I don't know, I just thought that Clinton should be mopping the floor with Trump at this point. I'm scared. If Trump gets elected, my family will be in danger, and racists will be empowered in ways that I don't even want to imagine.

Perhaps the problem isn't with the Clinton campaign but with the country at large, but I feel it's the campaign's job to figure out the country at large, figure out the media, and manipulate it, and win. And it's too close for comfort right now in way too many places.

Bullshit. Because of the electoral college and the degree of our partisan divide, she only has to win swing states. Her strategy doesn't have to scale.

I disagree. The country is connected, the narrative is connected, and big stories are more powerful than small ones. In every swing state, the voters Clinton needs to show up to the polls are ones who are connected to the larger world, part of communities and networks that aren't state-specific.
posted by cell divide at 1:56 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump camp: Clinton cramming her head with ‘microchips and binders’ for debate

Wait, that's supposed to be a point against her? That she's overprepared and well-read?

Basically, Granger/Weasley 2016.
posted by Rangi at 1:59 PM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]

Bullshit. Because of the electoral college and the degree of our partisan divide, she only has to win swing states. Her strategy doesn't have to scale.

~

Trump's target is anyone who thinks America was once greater than it currently is, and this is currently resonating with 44.2 percent of the electorate.

The silver lining - Clinton doesn't need to win by a landslide to win, and she doesn't have Trump's narcissist drives. Trump doesn't seem to care as much about securing a win as FEELING like "Mr. Popular" the winner. Clinton can deal with (and has been dealing with for decades) succeeding in her goals even while people metaphorically spit in her face. So, if "Stronger Together" does the behind the scenes work her carefully strategized campaign needs, it's a good slogan to her; if "Make American Great Again" buys Trump the adulation he's driven to seek, it's a good slogan to him.
posted by sallybrown at 1:59 PM on September 23, 2016

CRUZ DOOMS A PRESIDENT
is an anagram for
ZODIAC ENDORSES TRUMP [real]
posted by chris24 at 1:59 PM on September 23, 2016 [62 favorites]

CRUZ DOOMS A PRESIDENT
is an anagram for
ZODIAC ENDORSES TRUMP [real]

The most shocking thing there is that tweet came from Nate Silver. He's losing his grip, I'm telling you.
posted by anastasiav at 2:02 PM on September 23, 2016 [19 favorites]

When’s the big Cruz presser where he takes questions on this?

2018.

posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:03 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

If you're not getting the message, I wonder if it's because Clinton is addressing a much wider audience than you're a part of.

This is a wonderful reminder. Thank you, gadfly.
posted by Dashy at 2:04 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

> Wait, that's supposed to be a point against her? That she's overprepared and well-read?

Basically, Granger/Weasley 2016.

There are several Weasleys who would make good Vice Presidents, but if you're referring to Ron Weasley here I must politely request that you go splinch yourself.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:05 PM on September 23, 2016

Ginny, duh!
posted by Dashy at 2:05 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

I was disappointed that very few were making snarky Buffy the Vampire Slayer jokes during the Republican convention.

You'll be glad to know that I managed a tricky BtVS-to-Ghostbusters combo ref on Facebook the week of the RNC, deftly connecting the Cleveland Hellmouth to the hate groups in attendance to the psychoreactive mood-slime from GB2. But then, I waste all my best goofs on Facebook.
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:06 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Good lord, people, obviously the only Weasley that Tim Kaine could be is Arthur Weasley. Peak Dad.
posted by yasaman at 2:08 PM on September 23, 2016 [37 favorites]

Trump's target is anyone who thinks America was once greater than it currently is, and this is currently resonating with 44.2 percent of the electorate.

Thank you, I was running out of nightmare bait!

(wait, no I wasn't!)
posted by kythuen at 2:08 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

We always suspected that Ted Cruz would rather live like a sheep than die like a lion but we're still uncomfortable hearing him bleat.

(If you're on Twitter and you don't follow Hend Amry, you really should. She's hysterical and insightful.)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:08 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

> Ginny, duh!

Ginny "Egg" Weasley is acceptable, I guess, but only if Molly, Arthur, George, or Fred didn't want the job.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:10 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

I feel about Cruz the way I imagine P.J. O'Rourke feels about Clinton. He's wrong on everything, but he's wrong within acceptable parameters. What an awful choice to have to make.

If (Bast-the-cat-headed-goddess forbid) I had to choose between Trump and Cruz, I would pick Cruz (with great disgust).

That all said, he's backing Trump now and I can't even tell you the relief I feel now that I don't have to feel any modicum of respect for him.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:12 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Slogans" is a derail. It's not just about the slogans.

Q: What does Trump want to do? He wants to make America great again, build a wall, keep out the terrorists, restore law and order.*

Q: What does Hillary want to do?

---

* Editor’s note: Donald Trump regularly incites political violence and is a serial liar, rampant xenophobe, racist, misogynist and birther who has repeatedly pledged to ban all Muslims — 1.6 billion members of an entire religion — from entering the U.S.
posted by argybarg at 2:16 PM on September 23, 2016

I don't know what to tell you if that message doesn't resonate with you. It resonates very strongly with me and is a very clear contrast to the ethos of the Trump campaign.

Also chiming in to say that Clinton's message is resonating very strongly with me. The campaign ads, the choices of speakers at the DNC, the continuous, conscious choices to include include include at every opportunity--it reflects the America I see when I walk out my door, and it's the America I want to live in, one where we all have a place.

Every part of it is working for me.
posted by phunniemee at 2:17 PM on September 23, 2016 [46 favorites]

Cruz wants to further do his bidding on the country according to his Dominionist theology. He is wrong far outside of the acceptable parameters; the only problem is that an awful lot of people are wrong with him.
posted by zachlipton at 2:18 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Slogans" is a derail. It's not just about the slogans.

Q: What does Trump want to do? He wants to make America great again, build a wall, keep out the terrorists, restore law and order.*

Q: What does Hillary want to do?

Oh, so soundbites, then? Is soundbites the word you're looking for?
posted by phunniemee at 2:19 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

Q: What does Hillary want to do?

Create a more inclusive society, ensure equal wages for equal work, help young people enter public life with less or no debt, expand upon our healthcare coverage so we can all live longer, healthier lives?

That's just off the top of my head.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:19 PM on September 23, 2016 [37 favorites]

Q: What does Hillary want to do?

It's not that this list is blank. It's just that none of her plans are unforgettably stupid.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:19 PM on September 23, 2016 [41 favorites]

How much of your soul do you have to give up to say that Trump is an utterly amoral, narcissistic, philandering, pathological liar... who you believe should be President of the United States?

Trick question, Ted Cruz never had a soul.
posted by Justinian at 2:19 PM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

Or maybe you're bent out of shape because Hillary's entire campaign plan can't fit in 140 characters or less?
posted by phunniemee at 2:19 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Glenn Beck heading to the mountains and mourning the end of the Republic.
posted by Talez at 2:20 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

The slogans/soundbites/marketing thing is such a distraction. Can we get back to which Weasley each of the candidates is
posted by beerperson at 2:20 PM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trick question, Ted Cruz never had a soul.

False. The old stories say he found a fragment of Manus in the depths of the Abyss...
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:22 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Q: What does Hillary want to do?

Continue to vouch for the fact that women are people and human rights are valid for all humans? To believe in science, especially when it comes to the reality of climate change? To protect the rights of minorities in America, whether they believe in one God, in many gods, or in none?
posted by jetlagaddict at 2:22 PM on September 23, 2016 [13 favorites]

Which one of them is the distant squib relative who's an accountant that no one talks about?
posted by phunniemee at 2:22 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Q: What does Hillary want to do?

The answer to this is basically to reject the very premise of the Trump campaign and the need to make America great again in the first place by consistently broadcasting an inclusive message of building on the progress of the last 8 years that gives as many people as possible an opportunity to get inside the famous big tent. Because of this, given your framing, you'll never get a satisfactory answer to what you're looking for.
posted by feloniousmonk at 2:22 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

tbf I would vote for a George/Fred (or Fred/George, or Forge/Gred) ticket in a heartbeat.

I mean the George/Fred administration would certainly be... let's say unnecessarily exciting... but in the end I'd actually trust them to run things well.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:23 PM on September 23, 2016

Do you think if maaaaaaaaaybe Clinton's speeches had been reported on as much as Trump's, we might maybe have gotten more of her messaging into the public consciousness??

I don't know what magical media-controlling juju she was supposed to wield to overcome horrifying amounts of bias while also being the most perfectly qualifed candidate ever or else plus fend off periodic pointless investigations.
posted by emjaybee at 2:24 PM on September 23, 2016 [31 favorites]

Don't equate Ginny with film/"Egg" Ginny. Book Ginny is smart and awesome!
posted by rikschell at 2:24 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

CRUZ DOOMS A PRESIDENT
is also an anagram for
A CINDERED ZOOM SPURTS

just saying...
posted by piyushnz at 2:25 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

I will, I can get a satisfactory answer.

Listen, folks. I support Hillary very strongly. I do not believe that support means that I have to pretend she is doing a great job of communicating what she is about. I do not accept that me posting my concerns on MetaFilter is a form of disloyalty.

I do not think she is at a Dukakis/Gore level of haplessness, but she is far too close to Kerry for my comfort. I want the basic idea of Hillary's intentions to click with people, so that they say "Yes, I would like that as well." But I don't think that's happening, and I don't think it's just a problem with the press. And I don't think that getting that kind of message to become concise and compelling is a matter of "slogans" or "soundbites."
posted by argybarg at 2:27 PM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]

Tbh the only way I could feel more appreciated by her campaign's targeting is if she announced some sort of Usable Pocket Mandate for women's work clothing, at which point I would wear exclusively HRC bumper stickers until November [fake but only sort of]
posted by jetlagaddict at 2:28 PM on September 23, 2016 [24 favorites]

A CINDERED ZOOM SPURTS

already tired of the Flash crossover events
posted by beerperson at 2:28 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Argybargy, I have to admit, at this point, I have no idea what you're looking for but I applaud you for trying to find it.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:28 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Mod note: 9 times Ted Cruz insulted Donald Trump before endorsing him:

“Donald, you’re a sniveling coward. great candidate!. Leave Heidi the hell alone. Go ahead and pick on Heidi.”

“It is not acceptable Turns out it's fine for a big, loud New York bully to attack my wife.”

“Donald Trump alleges that my dad was involved in assassinating JFK. Vote Trump 2016!”

“I’m gonna tell you what I really think of Donald Trump: This man is a pathological liar the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.”

“Donald Trump is serial philanderer winner, and he boasts about it. This is not a secret. He’s proud of being a serial philanderer winner.”

“That pledge was not a blanket commitment that if you go and slander and attack Heidi, that I'm going to nonetheless come like a servile puppy dog and say, 'Thank you very much for maligning my wife and maligning my father.'”

All real with fake updates
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 2:29 PM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

But would the clothing made exclusively out of HRC bumper stickers have usable pockets?
posted by zachlipton at 2:29 PM on September 23, 2016

But would the clothing made exclusively out of HRC bumper stickers have usable pockets?

by the power of my Pantsuits for President button I would make it sew
posted by jetlagaddict at 2:32 PM on September 23, 2016 [15 favorites]

Oh, so soundbites, then? Is soundbites the word you're looking for?
posted by phunniemee at 2:19 PM on September 23 [+] [!]

This isn't really very fair. 10 word hooks, theme, etc-- all of that is important because it all works. It's persuasive, it's engaging. And if people in these threads, who consume all the news, can't identify what her thematic goal is, neither can normal people.

But I think this is by desgin. "If the election is about Trump/Clinton, Clinton/Trump wins."

This election is weird.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:33 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Between Trump's slogan and Clinton's slogan, taken just at the words, no real evaluation, it's no secret that Trump looks backward to some Neverland image of the U.S. to find his idea of greatness while Clinton's view is more of a forward-looking one that suggests we can get through whatever comes if we accept one another as equals and we can improve this country together.

I marvel at the stupidity of people who vote on the basis of a slogan without researching what the consequences of that slogan will be. I won't suggest a civics class for new voters, but it does bother me that some will vote with little factual information. Maybe folks could examine candidates' statements and policy proposals--and if those are not available in detail for a candidate, it does make a statement about that candidate.
posted by Silverstone at 2:34 PM on September 23, 2016

also Clinton needs to save the cat in the third act or forget it
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:34 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Or maybe you're bent out of shape because Hillary's entire campaign plan can't fit in 140 characters or less?

I'm trying to understand what argybarg is driving at; I don't think he's bent out of shape or anything but trying to make a point about the perceived accessibility of Clinton's ideas and plans; and I don't think we do a message of "Stronger Together" much service when we go after somebody who supports Clinton but is wondering if her platform can be made easier to grasp.

We had a guy up here run for Mayor one year, and while I'm not sure I'd call it a slogan, he described his campaign as being about "Politics in Full Sentences"; instead of sound bites he focused on putting out comprehensive 1 pagers about an issue and his proposed solution. It worked for him; in a crowded field he stood out because he gave substantive answers where the presumed favourites spoke in platitudes. It was also a way of signaling to the voters that he thought we were smart, capable people who could understand an issue and proposed solution. Now, Clinton has a different campaign (realistically, only one opponent) on a different level, but I'm now kind of taken with the "Politics in Full Sentences" message for her, especially in the face of the word salad of her opponent.
posted by nubs at 2:36 PM on September 23, 2016 [24 favorites]

offered at no charge:
MAKE AMERICA BETTER... FOR EVERYBODY
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:36 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

Back in college I saw a largely forgettable movie called Cradle Will Rock by Tim Robbins and the Actors Gang. It’s mostly worth seeing for actors doing something different from their usual thing. (e.g. Tenacious D play a couple of gay puppeteers.) One of the lines that has always stuck in my brain is spoken by the ghost of Bertolt Brecht, who haunts the composer played by Hank Azaria’s fevered imagination: “Artists are the worst whores of all!” A friend and I would say the line to each other while working in the college theater’s tech shop, using terrible German accents.

I mention this only because this election and the Republicans have taken away the last shreds of pleasure that I’ll ever get from that line.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:36 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

The opposite of MAGA is BLM.

I mean Clinton can't actually make Black Lives Matter her slogan, because on the one hand that would entail appropriating a slogan from people significantly to her left and on the other hand white Americans as a group are more than half evil, but one real concrete way Clinton is vastly superior to Sanders is that she was actually eager to say Black Lives Matter right from the start.

whatever. if we're LARPing campaign consultant here I'm doubling down on "We Are Family."

and then going back to reading HP fanfic cause I am the laziest consultant.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:38 PM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]

Cruz endorsing Trump means Cruz thinks Trump can win and/or is the Republican future. The party in will fall in line
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:40 PM on September 23, 2016

Absentee voting started here in MN today. I'm home-based and if I'm not super busy, I can usually duck out and run a quick errand.

The location to do it in person was close (city hall) so I went and did it! There was one extra form to fill out and that was it! They were supposed to have the little "I voted" stickers but they hadn't yet located them.

I learned that I could vote early here: https://twitter.com/HillaryforMN/status/779289716638228480
posted by VTX at 2:41 PM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

The party in will fall in line

Haven't they already? What elected Republicans are still openly neverTrump besides Kacish and Lindsey Graham? Ben Sasse?, ok but no one even knows who he is.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:43 PM on September 23, 2016

I guess I'm still waiting for evidence that Clinton's message isn't resonating with "America." She's been up in pretty much every poll for a while. Yeah, Trump still has 44% support. To me, that implies that at least 44% of the country is ok with blatant racism and sexism and xenophobia. That seems about right, actually. I get that people think Trump's support should be at the theorized 27% crazification factor, but I have yet to see any evidence that only 27% of Americans are some combination of racist/sexist/xenophobic.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:43 PM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]

Common misunderstanding -- it's actually Stronger To Get Her.

Phew! I was afraid it was
Stronger Tog Ether.
Intriguing but kind of a derail, I think.
posted by msalt at 2:44 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

WaPo's Comic Riffs: Why a Pulitzer-winning cartoonist has decided to go ‘Trump-free’
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:45 PM on September 23, 2016

when does the new thread start

i don't want to read all of this one
posted by poffin boffin at 2:45 PM on September 23, 2016 [14 favorites]

Here's the text of Hillary Clinton's campaign announcement speech.

President Roosevelt called on every American to do his or her part, and every American answered. He said there’s no mystery about what it takes to build a strong and prosperous America: “Equality of opportunity… Jobs for those who can work… Security for those who need it… The ending of special privilege for the few… The preservation of civil liberties for all… a wider and constantly rising standard of living.”

That still sounds good to me.

Here's a transcript of her nomination acceptance speech.

None of us can raise a family, build a business, heal a community or lift a country totally alone.

America needs every one of us to lend our energy, our talents, our ambition to making our nation better and stronger. I believe that with all my heart.

That's why “Stronger Together” is not just a lesson from our history. It's not just a slogan for our campaign. It's a guiding principle for the country we've always been and the future we're going to build.

A country where the economy works for everyone, not just those at the top. Where you can get a good job and send your kids to a good school, no matter what ZIP code you live in.

A country where all our children can dream, and those dreams are within reach. Where families are strong, communities are safe, and yes, where love trumps hate.

That's really what she stands for. I agree that anyone who can't hear the consistent theme there is not paying attention. We're all on the same team, and we all need to work together toward "A country where the economy works for everyone, not just those at the top."

I find it pretty goddamn inspiring, myself.
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:46 PM on September 23, 2016 [38 favorites]

Shouldn't we try to get through the weekend on this thread and save a new one for the debate?
posted by saturday_morning at 2:46 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

Q: What does Hillary want to do?

Most of us in this thread could give several good answers to this question, but that won't affect the vote. The Clinton team needs to figure out the underlying reasons why 40+% of the country is drawn to Trump, and tell *those* people what Hillary wants to do *for them*.

And it isn't as simple as "they're all deplorables". Some are, sure, but many of them are just generally feeling screwed over by society and their employers and they think their taxes are too high and the government isn't helping them and a million other reasons and their frustrations are real and legitimate. The deplorable part comes from people like Trump (and many others) telling them that Mexicans and Blacks and Muslims and Feminists and Gays are the cause of their problems, and things will be better when white men are back to running everything again. And they believe it. But the truth is many of them aren't on board with Trump because they're deplorable. They've become deplorable because they've gotten on board with Trump and those like him and bought into their rhetoric.

She needs to speak to those people - the other basket of Trump supporters who aren't deplorables at heart. She needs to empathize with them and explain in simple sound-bite terms why the minorities aren't to blame and how we can "Make America Great Again" in other ways. Ways that help them without hurting others.

I hope she does that in the debates and doesn't just try to make him look like a fool. (I hope she does make him look like a fool, but also those other things)
posted by rocket88 at 2:48 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

when does the new thread start

Monday is the usual, and logical, time but the gun was jumped for this one so it's longer in the tooth than usual.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:48 PM on September 23, 2016

I do not think she is at a Dukakis/Gore level of haplessness, but she is far too close to Kerry for my comfort. I want the basic idea of Hillary's intentions to click with people, so that they say "Yes, I would like that as well."

So I don't know what to say to convince you at this point (probably nothing - if it's not resonating with you, it's not), but maybe instead I'll just remind you that your own point of view here isn't remotely universal. There are plenty of people in this thread who are hearing something from her that totally clicks for them. Maybe there's some pithy way to get that across to more people that her team hasn't hit on yet, but I think this is really an individual thing. Maybe a campaign truly can't be all things to all people. Speaking only for myself, the inclusiveness theme - paired with her long history of being incredibly tenacious and being a "listener" - has really worked for me in terms of emphasizing the best parts of her personality and what she can bring to the presidency (even leaving aside her wonky plans and big, juicy brain).

I'm sort of really tired at this point, because it's reminding me way too much of the primaries where people kept insisting that no one actually liked Hillary Clinton, even when she was winning handily. They didn't seem to believe that there were a lot of people (very often women, incidentally) who were enthusiastic Clinton supporters who found her very exciting.

Maybe it's the people who are usually treated as invisible who are hearing her message and saying, "Yes, that's exactly it."
posted by Salieri at 2:48 PM on September 23, 2016 [42 favorites]

one real concrete way Clinton is vastly superior to Sanders is that she was actually eager to say Black Lives Matter right from the start.

She "All Lives Matter"ed them at another event not long after they had interrupted Sanders' Social Security rally.

I mean she's reversed course since then, but let's not rewrite history.
posted by indubitable at 2:49 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah I'd personally love to see this thread last until maybe 30 minutes before the debate, to help avoid chaos.
posted by zachlipton at 2:49 PM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]

US intel says a top Trump advisor went to Moscow and met with Kremlin head of collecting intel on US elections [real]

. . . “Based on briefings we have received, we have concluded that the Russian intelligence agencies are making a serious and concerted effort to influence the U.S. election,” they {Sen. Dianne Feinstein, ranking minority member on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and Rep. Adam Schiff, ranking minority member on the House Intelligence Committee} said. “At the least, this effort is intended to sow doubt about the security of our election and may well be intended to influence the outcomes of the election.” They added that “orders for the Russian intelligence agencies to conduct such actions could come only from very senior levels of the Russian government.”

Jeezy Petes you guys, seriously that is some f#*%d-up s$&t right there. Kleptocratic stooge and former Marine intelligence officer brokers election for Trump with PootzCo.

#NextPost
posted by petebest at 2:49 PM on September 23, 2016 [28 favorites]

She "All Lives Matter"ed them at another event not long after they had interrupted Sanders' Social Security rally.

Not that I don't believe you, but do you have a link?
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:52 PM on September 23, 2016

> I want to basic idea of Hillary's intentions to click with people, so that they say "Yes, I would like that as well." But I don't think that's happening

And why do you not think that is happening? Perhaps it isn't happening with you, but I don't know what metric it is that you are judging this by. I'm not accusing you of disloyalty or anything along those lines, and I'm more open to criticism of the campaign than many others- but I'm honestly curious, what makes you think this isn't happening?

The only thing I can think of are her "favorability" ratings in the polls or similar, and so much of that seems to be "Is Clinton trustworthy" in the midsts of tons and tons of articles attacking her trustworthiness, and many partisan attempts to smear her both in the past and in the present. Or maybe the outspoken nature of BoBs or other people who are not in the Clinton camp is something you see much of. But I have to guess because I really don't know what you are using as a gauge for this.

If she was not running against Trump, would we be as nervous about her messaging with the polls showing that she is tracking with where Obama was in 2012? Because if we look at the polls and think "holy shit he's horrible, why isn't she up like a TON higher in the polls" it's easy to think that it must be because she isn't resonating with some base, or that there is a messaging problem... whereas if this wasn't Trump, we'd likely not even be having this discussion.
posted by MysticMCJ at 2:53 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

T.D. Strange: What elected Republicans are still openly neverTrump besides Kacish and Lindsey Graham? Ben Sasse?, ok but no one even knows who he is.

Jeff Flake, but I'm not sure how well known he is outside of Arizona.
(And boy does it irritate me to have to acknowledge something positive about him. Although at this point, who knows if it'll stick?)
posted by Superplin at 2:53 PM on September 23, 2016

I do not understand why the Trump-Putin connections, and the attempts to hack the elections in Arizona and Illinois, are not front page scandals across the country.
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:53 PM on September 23, 2016 [47 favorites]

no Democratic candidate in our lifetime has cracked the code that keeps 40%+ of the voting public voting for Republicans, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't expect Clinton to thread that needle right here and now
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:54 PM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]

This is where I quietly suggest that rewriting history (or at least temporarily playing fast and loose with it) is possibly a valid move in this election campaign.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:55 PM on September 23, 2016

Not that I don't believe you, but do you have a link?

I don't have a link, but I also remember this.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 2:57 PM on September 23, 2016

Samantha Bee has a handy guide to Trump endorsements by prominent Republicans (or other unlikely suspects).

My favorites:
"Rand Paul: ham radio announcement, 2 am"
"John McCain: note in penny jar"
"Mitch McConnell: temporary tattoo, left buttock"
posted by Superplin at 2:59 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

Gotta love that editor's note at the end of the Kardashian piece:

What *I* love about that Kardashian piece is the update right at the very very very top that says the statements attributed to Kim Kardashian did not appear in either the print or online versions of the interview published by Wonderland magazine, and that the magazine disavows the quote. Looks like trashy tabloid "reporting" by the Evening Standard... and disappointingly but not at all surprisingly, my fellow MeFites rushed to trash Kim Kardashian without bothering to notice the big honkin' part of the article that indicates it's not actually true.
posted by palomar at 3:00 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's not an official thing; there's no official thing.
posted by LobsterMitten at 3:01 PM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

Continuing the trend of news that is making me nauseous:

“I am greatly honored by the endorsement of Senator Cruz. We have fought the battle and he was a tough and brilliant opponent. I look forward to working with him for many years to come in order to make America great again.” - Donald J. Trump
[Real]
posted by RedOrGreen at 3:02 PM on September 23, 2016

Classic Theme, Engage!
posted by petebest at 3:02 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Metafilter: It's not an official thing; there's no official thing.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:03 PM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]

US intel says a top Trump advisor went to Moscow and met with Kremlin head of collecting intel on US elections

I wonder if that was mentioning in the classified briefing.
posted by holgate at 3:03 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

And why do you not think that is happening?

Because most poll aggregators show her with around 44-47% support, and her opponent is an obvious asswipe.

Because I guarantee you if I asked 10 of my friends who all support Hillary: What does she want to accomplish with her presidency? I would get a mishmash of well-meaning answers without a theme, and eventually they'd get back to "well, she sure as hell isn't Donald Trump."

Because Democratic candidates and their supporters have, in my lifetime, routinely lapsed into what they think is the high ground of "not offering sound bites or easy slogans" and gotten their butts kicked by fools.
posted by argybarg at 3:05 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Classic Theme, Engage!

Really should be mentioned in the #NextPost
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:05 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Not that I don't believe you, but do you have a link?

I found this, she was speaking at an AA church about a month and a half before the Sanders thing. Still gross, but not in response to BLM protesters.
posted by indubitable at 3:05 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

where people kept insisting that no one actually liked Hillary Clinton, even when she was winning handily. They didn't seem to believe that there were a lot of people (very often women, incidentally) who were enthusiastic Clinton supporters who found her very exciting.

Maybe it's the people who are usually treated as invisible who are hearing her message and saying, "Yes, that's exactly it."
posted by Salieri

FUCKING EXACTLY RIGHT. I chalk up many misgivings and worry about her very nice lead and messaging to the same old sexist society that loves to discount women's voices.
posted by agregoli at 3:08 PM on September 23, 2016 [13 favorites]

Argybarg, I'm sorry your friends aren't paying attention, but glad they are supporting her anyway.
posted by agregoli at 3:10 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

These threads always wind up having the same length problem anyway. I say just run this one until election day.
posted by mazola at 3:10 PM on September 23, 2016

Q: What does Hillary want to do?

Crush her enemy, see him driven before her, and hear the lamentations of his women?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:10 PM on September 23, 2016 [19 favorites]

I mean the sun is eventually going to swallow the planet, so there's no point making new threads, really.
posted by stolyarova at 3:11 PM on September 23, 2016 [60 favorites]

Crush her enemy, see him driven before her, and hear the lamentations of his women?

But really listen to their lamentations.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:13 PM on September 23, 2016 [93 favorites]

Q: What does Clinton want to do?
A: Make nazi punks fuck off.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:13 PM on September 23, 2016 [20 favorites]

Conservative radio talker John Ziegler: "Ted Cruz was with Trump when he could've beaten him & against him when he couldn't. Then he non-endorsed with max damage, & caved for 0 gain."

Seems about right.
posted by holgate at 3:14 PM on September 23, 2016 [14 favorites]

maybe we'll claw our way out of the fucked-up timeline we're stuck in and maybe in twenty years or so there'll be a viable candidate who could use "SPACE COMMUNISM NOW" as an A to the "what does [x] want?" Q.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:20 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

Alexandra Petri: Ted Cruz and his conscience amicably part ways
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:22 PM on September 23, 2016 [15 favorites]

I dunno, ascribing a conscience to Cruz really seems to be playing fast and loose with empirical evidence.
posted by Superplin at 3:24 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

The Election Thread length issue is like Climate Change. Very few, very LOUD people admit it's happening, but it is, it's not good, it's hard to fix, we're all passively contributing to it and we may already be past the point of no return. In fact, I personally feel like I just drove to WalMart to buy several overprocessed and overpackaged food products and plastic things. At least this is only my second comment today.

But seriously, I know my "MAKE AMERICA BETTER... FOR EVERYBODY" sounds a little too "All Lives Matter" for some, but it's supposed to be a catch-all slogan, something different segments of American society can read their own interests into with an unspoken assurance that even the Deplorables will benefit - and just hate it. And "BETTER" doesn't deny that America isn't "GREAT" (for certain definitions of Great), just not "Good Enough" (for certain unrelated definitions of Good). Yeah, I know, too much to explain for a 5 word slogan. "Better Together" it is, then. (How about "Make America Better Together"?)
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:27 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Here is my private Hillary Clinton slogan: Going Forward, sensibly.

That's really all I need. A little progress, some sensible decisions, some deft handling of foreign affairs and some attempt to make everyone feel like they are included in the greatness of America.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:36 PM on September 23, 2016 [24 favorites]

"I mean look is there anyone in the world at all surprised that Ted Cruz would do something self-serving and shitty? He's Ted Cruz. That's what he do."

I am in no way a fan of Ted Cruz, but when I saw what he did at the RNC, I have to say I had a little bit of respect for him, it's not easy to get up in front of what is ostensibly your peer group and get booed for sticking to your principles.
Any respect he got from me for that is herewith rescinded.
posted by Rufous-headed Towhee heehee at 3:39 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

Reason #2871 of why I am glad I have given no money to the Trump Campaign:

WaPo: Corey Lewandowski set to collect nearly $500,000 from Trump campaign

Lewandowski, who is now serving as a paid commentator on CNN, collected at least $415,000 in salary, bonuses and severance from the Trump campaign between April 2015 and August of this year, according to a Washington Post analysis of federal campaign finance filings. Campaign officials said he will continue receiving his $20,000 monthly pay as severance until the end of the year, which would give him a total of $495,000 over two years.

His compensation appears to be higher than that of his counterparts, though a direct comparison is difficult because Lewandowski is paid a flat fee through a limited-liability company rather than a campaign paycheck.

After taxes and deductions, Robby Mook, Hillary Clinton’s campaign manager, has earned between $7,000 and $11,000 a month this cycle, according to federal filings. He has been paid a total of $141,704 in salary between April 2015 through August of this year.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:40 PM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

> Because I guarantee you if I asked 10 of my friends who all support Hillary

Well, that "if" implies that you haven't done so - maybe take the leap of faith? Your friends may surprise you with their answers...

Regardless - In the primaries, enough people seemed to feel that she was able to make a better case for their support than Sanders, who was certainly able to condense much of his campaign into more repetitive slogans, quotes, and sound bites -- to the point of sounding like a single-issue candidate at times.

I suspect that many of the people she isn't "connecting" with on messaging but who still support her are coming from a position of originally supporting him. I know I came from that camp originally - I felt that Clinton had no messaging, but the reality is that it was completely lost in all of the aforementioned noise of negative press and manufactured controversy, along with the tunnel-vision that can accompany support for a competing candidate.

This is very likely why I cannot speak for her messaging at the time, I was blind to it... I had to make the conscious effort to recognize that much of my feelings towards Clinton were the result of years of propaganda (including some particularly vile messaging from certain portions of the Sanders camp) and recalibrate how I viewed her in light of that recognition. And I'm not saying that you personally haven't done that - but it's also not an easy thing to do.
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:41 PM on September 23, 2016 [16 favorites]

Also note that tweet by Donna Brazile at the end of that NYT article.

#HillaryClinton was telling a story about her mother, she's also said "we can stand up together & say 'yes Black lives matter.' Stop hating!

posted by cashman at 3:44 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

Donald Trump Taps Rick Santorum To Headline His Catholic Advisory Group

A statement from the Trump campaign said the group was launched to help represent Trump’s issues and policies regarding Catholic and Christian voters and to “have access to the wise counsel of such leaders.” The 35-member council will be serving as advisors to Trump on pro-life issues, and as Congressman Sean Duffy put it, “Issues and policies of greatest concern to Catholics.” And Duffy took a page out of Trump’s playbook by dissing Hillary Clinton as “openly hostile to those issue of greatest concern to Catholics and will attack the core teachings of the Catholic Church.”

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:51 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

You know how the german communist party famously and stupidly made "Nach Hitler, uns" a slogan?

Yeah, it never works out that way. But "Nach Clinton, Warren," that is something that makes sense.

The main thing I'm looking forward to after Clinton wins is having a solid four years of not having to worry that much about literal nazis taking over the United States. The main other thing I'm looking forward to, though, is Warren being an absolutely continual PITA for Clinton.

And then becoming President in 2024.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:58 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Maybe this is along the lines of argybarg's argument?:

TPM: Why Hillary Clinton hasn't been able to leave Donald Trump in the Dust

Given my understanding of the back & forth it seems to address a lot of arg's concerns about slogan/messaging/etc. I get that the messaging is working for some of us (I actually feel like it's very much on point- for me) but I also believe that it's not working for others. I don't know what the solution is, but if this is an area of messaging improvement, I'm up for us continuing the discussion.

My one hope would be that we think constructively & if we come up with potential adjustments, someone/somewhere within this thread's influence might be able to run the message up the flag pole to their local HFC group, etc. I am thoroughly convinced that while Clinton is surrounded with the "best," she would also listen to a good idea if it made its way up from her staff. Conversely, I'm not all that enthused about us all bemoaning Clinton's lack of messaging if we aren't willing to roll up our sleeves & figure out messaging that would work.

tl;dr: Ok, so what does good messaging look like? We know HC's positions, let's brainstorm how she could be doing this better.
posted by narwhal at 4:01 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

In the primaries, enough people seemed to feel that she was able to make a better case for their support than Sanders, who was certainly able to condense much of his campaign into more repetitive slogans, quotes, and sound bites -- to the point of sounding like a single-issue candidate at times.

An excellent point, and one that I'm keeping in my pocket. I also remember how pundits used to roll their eyes at Bill Clinton's endless policy-heavy State of the Union addresses — until they found empirical evidence that people ate those up.

I also thought the DNC was superb. The sight of so many powerful people vouching for Hillary was remarkable. The personal testimony of her long, dedicated involvement was convincing. So there may be an entirely new message around a woman who wants to exercise power in a more traditionally female way: listening, learning, caring in personal terms, building consensus. Maybe we just don't have the politics to process that yet.

But I also know that "I have a 33-point plan" has been the instrument of Democratic self-destruction too many times for me not to dread it.
posted by argybarg at 4:02 PM on September 23, 2016 [14 favorites]

Josh Marshall at TPM makes the same point others have been making in this thread.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:02 PM on September 23, 2016

> Trick question, Ted Cruz never had a soul.

Cruz has a soul*. He keeps it safely hidden among the hundreds of cans of soup in his pantry. [* Note: Soul(s) in Cruz's possession may not actually be the soul of Ted Cruz.]
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 4:04 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Here is my private Hillary Clinton slogan: Going Forward, sensibly.

That's really all I need. A little progress, some sensible decisions, some deft handling of foreign affairs and some attempt to make everyone feel like they are included in the greatness of America.

Jaroslav Hasek had you covered back in 1911 with The Party of Moderate Progress Within the Bounds Of the Law.
posted by knapah at 4:05 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Maybe "I Don't Want to Set the World On Fire" as a campaign song?
posted by argybarg at 4:07 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's an improvement over Trump's rally theme of "You Can't Always Get What You Want." /real
posted by Superplin at 4:15 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

"When the Swallows Come Back to Capistrano"
posted by clavdivs at 4:18 PM on September 23, 2016

Closer to the election he'll start using "Lunatic Fringe"
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:18 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

One of the problems for Hillary's condensed message is that so many of the "we're all here together; let's fix this" metaphors are both male-coded and focused on conquering an opponent; those that are female-coded are also assumed to be trivial.

Maybe she say "let's roll up our sleeves and steer this ship to the Port of Prosperity" without being ridiculed for the pirate-y imagery, but I doubt it. She certainly can't say "we have an abundance of resources; we'll make a feast and make sure everyone is invited." She can't say "it takes a village - and we are that village," because that get shoved into the "just women's work" bin. I'm honestly amazed that she's managed to push family & childcare as much as she has, and that she hasn't been shouted down as "focusing on grandma issues."

Cooperation and communication are often considered "feminine" approaches to problems, and I don't think there's any simple way to counter the rhetoric of "my side is going to WIN and the other side will LOSE" with pithy soundbites about how we are going to fight poverty, bigotry, and tragedy with the magic powers of equal rights, education, and safety nets.

Hillary's agenda doesn't have an enemy, and that makes it hard to use the traditional war-focused metaphors that fill most political campaigns.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:25 PM on September 23, 2016 [56 favorites]

also though we've been working ourselves into fits of trump anxiety, america on the whole has been busily not paying all that much serious attention, because people who aren't a little bit insane don't want to follow all the tedious details of a multiple-years-long election campaign.

(and they're right; this is why sane countries have electoral rules structured such that campaigns last a few weeks instead of a few years).

basically what I'm getting at here is that right now is an appropriate time for Clinton to be:

1. Fundraising, and
2. Sandbagging

and hopefully the campaign will get significantly more forceful in two weeks or so, when people actually start taking the election semi-seriously.

this is also what I thought about Kerry in September of 2004 though. so there's an element of wishful thinking here. but only an element, since likely Clinton's got about twenty thousand times as much useful/effective October Surprise stuff to drop on Trump than Kerry had to drop on Bush.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:26 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

What do we want? MODERATE CHANGE
When do we want it? IN DUE COURSE
posted by LynnDee at 4:26 PM on September 23, 2016 [63 favorites]

Trump campaign quarrels over money woes:

Trump’s top advisers have held a series of tense conversations in recent days about how to close a fundraising hole that’s grown to over $200 million – a deficit that’s led Trump to essentially cede the TV airwaves to his Democratic rival.
...
The shortfall is putting Trump at a substantial disadvantage during the remaining few weeks of the campaign, as focus shifts to the clinical – and costly -- process of bringing voters out to the polls.

posted by kirkaracha at 4:28 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

How do we want it? WITHIN CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITS
posted by argybarg at 4:29 PM on September 23, 2016 [36 favorites]

I was thinking Pink Floyd's "In The Flesh" for Trump's late-stage rally theme.
posted by uosuaq at 4:31 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump's going to stiff his own campaign bill, calling it.
posted by Yowser at 4:32 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

I suppose it's nice that we have something new to criticize Hillary for, that isn't Emails/Foundation/Benghazi/Press Conferencess/Pneumonia/Bill/Outfits/Hair/Outfits/Voice/Smile. Personally, I can't wait until next week, and the new Vitally Important Campaign Issue That Hillary is Fixing Up topic.

Seriously if you think Hillary's campaign doesn't have an adequate theme, WRITE ONE. Write a kickass theme, give it to your friends, publicize it on all your social media. Do some work yourself, don't just sit there expecting to be saved.
posted by happyroach at 4:33 PM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

What do we want? MODERATE CHANGE
When do we want it? IN DUE COURSE

Perfect. And funny.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:34 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump's going to stiff his own campaign bill, calling it.

That was two weeks ago.
posted by Talez at 4:35 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Poll: Nearly half of voters think Trump will detonate a nuke

"A majority of voters say Donald Trump would allow the U.S. to default on its debt and that he would misuse the power of the presidency to punish his political opponents.

And nearly half of voters — 46 percent — say the GOP nominee would use a nuclear weapon to attack ISIS or another foreign enemy."
posted by chris24 at 4:37 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

There are several Weasleys who would make good Vice Presidents, but if you're referring to Ron Weasley here I must politely request that you go splinch yourself.

Late but, anyone who wants to talk smack about Ron Weasley can fight me.
posted by asteria at 4:43 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump's going to stiff his own campaign bill, calling it.

That was two weeks ago.

That was the article I was thinking about when I read that Cory Lewandowski was making $20,000 a month while not working for Trump. Meanwhile some of the people in the Washington DC policy office had put in long hours since April and never got a paycheck.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:44 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

"Among those who say they will vote for Trump, 48 percent say he’ll create a database to track Muslims; 36 percent say there will be race riots; 33 percent say the government would default on its debt; and 32 percent say Trump would punish his political opponents and authorize internment camps for illegal immigrants.

Only 22 percent of Trump supporters believe he will start a nuclear war."

I just... don't even know what to do with this information. White people really have gone insane.*

*yes I know #notallwhitepeople
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:45 PM on September 23, 2016 [43 favorites]

She can't say "it takes a village - and we are that village," because that get shoved into the "just women's work" bin. I'm honestly amazed that she's managed to push family & childcare as much as she has, and that she hasn't been shouted down as "focusing on grandma issues."

Yeah, one of the things I've been saddened about this election cycle (one in a long long list) is how little Clinton's work on behalf of women and children seems to matter to people. I find myself trying to defend Clinton's progressive credentials to others, talking about her work with CHIP and the Beijing women's conference and her constant work on behalf of women around the world and get a lot of "well, ok, I know she's done a lot for women and children, but what about other stuff?" even from other women. And I mean, women and children are more than half of all humanity. Helping women and children helps the entire world. I'm sad that "progressive" seems to have narrowed in focus to the minimum wage, free tuition for colleges and sticking it to the banks. Somehow all these "women's issues" are not sufficiently progressive.
posted by peacheater at 4:51 PM on September 23, 2016 [75 favorites]

> There are several Weasleys who would make good Vice Presidents, but if you're referring to Ron Weasley here I must politely request that you go splinch yourself.

> Late but, anyone who wants to talk smack about Ron Weasley can fight me.

Ron Weasley: The Gryffindor who's everything that people unjustly accuse Hufflepuffs of being.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:51 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

How about "A Vision of American Freedom" as a slogan? Or something along those lines?

I think it really needs to be hammered home how Trump's vision is explicitly an American incarnation of Nazi Germany, as the Nazis saw their own state: American citizens needing to worry about being reported as unregistered Muslims (and American Muslims needing to register!), now reunited with Ted "special police patrols of ethnic neighborhoods" Cruz, a Deportation Force busting down millions of doors across the country and rounding people up to put in camps, lots of supporters gunning for a retroactive end to what Cruz calls the "policy" of birthright citizenship so that even people believing they're "legals" may need the equivalent of an Ahnenpass because their own birth certificates are no longer adequate proof of citizenship, where protesting must have consequences, and America as the world's torturer and murderer of the families of enemies of the state.

These are the kind of things that many people on the Trump side, at the very least the electorally-significant proportion of non-deplorables, have all their lives had the self-image of righteously opposing and if we beat the drum hard enough, with the right way of articulating it, the scales will fall away from their eyes.

Plus, it's an opportunity to seize back the definitions of freedom and liberty, and elaborate that all of the things we've been fighting for on the left, that she's been fighting for, are the same freedom and liberty enshrined in the civil scripture.
posted by XMLicious at 4:52 PM on September 23, 2016 [13 favorites]

Only 22 percent of Trump supporters believe he will start a nuclear war.

Would you eat a handful of Skittles if you knew 22% of them were batshit insane?
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:54 PM on September 23, 2016 [38 favorites]

****SPECIAL REPORT KNOW YOUR SUBSTANCES ELECTION REPORT****
Wow I am commenting on a metafilter thread while drunken for the first time
And I am not stoned or at least much more drunk than stoned
This is why they got drunk during war not stoned right
Because drunken is all I don't care while stoned is like I can plot a course where the nukes are falling like in six months
Go booze.
*****END SPECIAL REPORT KNOW YOUR SUBSTANCES ELECTION REPORT*****
posted by angrycat at 4:57 PM on September 23, 2016 [20 favorites]

"I just... don't even know what to do with this information. White people really have gone insane.*"

You realize that these are percentages of Trump supporters, not percentages of "white people"?
posted by I-baLL at 4:58 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Would you eat a handful of Skittles if you knew 22% of them were batshit insane?"

Heh, the worst part about the people-as-Skittles analogy is that it means that you're a Skittle too....eating other Skittles. Maybe the newest political party in the US is going to be the Doner Party?
posted by I-baLL at 5:00 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

Shouldn't we try to get through the weekend on this thread and save a new one for the debate?

I think we're going to need more than one thread for the debate. Maybe more than one for Monday, even.
posted by kythuen at 5:01 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ron Weasley: The Gryffindor who's everything that people unjustly accuse Hufflepuffs of being.

I know there's seven books but I promise, they're a quick read. You should check them out sometime.

You realize that these are percentages of Trump supporters, not percentages of "white people"?

Who are 99% white people, let's be real. As a fellow white person, I agree that white people suck.
posted by asteria at 5:05 PM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]

#NotAllWhitePeopleButAProblematicPercentageGivenOurMajorityStatusDwindlingAsItMayBe

#TheHashtagIsTheMessage
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:15 PM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]

So I was in a sadistic mood and ended up looking for Trump on Twitter, and it's pretty clear he has not been in control of his twitter account anymore. This isn't his usual writing style-

"Hopefully the violence & unrest in Charlotte will come to an immediate end. To those injured, get well soon. We need unity & leadership."

Also "unity"?? lol
posted by Tarumba at 5:19 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

the Doner Party

"A Basket Of Kabobs!"
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 5:24 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

I was thinking Pink Floyd's 'In The Flesh' for Trump's late-stage rally theme.

Nah, "Empty Spaces."

What shall we use to fill the empty spaces
Where we used to talk?
How should I fill the final places?
How should I complete the wall?

posted by kirkaracha at 5:25 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump wants to fire generals who disagree with him. That’ll mean firing a lot of generals.
Nothing in Trump’s public comments suggest that he grasps that the military is a fundamentally cautious institution led by men and women who are far from the warmongering stereotypes often seen in pop culture (like Dr. Strangelove’s Gen. Buck Turgidson).
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:29 PM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

Mother should I run for president?
Mother should I trust the government?
posted by kyrademon at 5:31 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

3600 comments! poor mods
posted by Yowser at 5:32 PM on September 23, 2016

Have you stopped freaking out yet?

Vox: Democrats are in deep trouble — even if Hillary Clinton wins
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:35 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

As long as this thread is, I'd vote for starting a new one just slightly before the debate on Monday, because *that* one...hoo boy.
posted by uosuaq at 5:39 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Mod note: Folks, a long Harry Potter derail is *not* what this thread needs. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 5:40 PM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

I just... don't even know what to do with this information. White people really have gone insane.*

*yes I know #notallwhitepeople

Oh, and as for this: I think this is fundamentally the same problem that we have with antivaxxers: a fair number of privileged people have simply forgotten both how society eradicated a bunch of their problems, and what those problems were like in real terms. They don't understand the mechanisms or costs associated with the success they enjoy - clean water, reliable power grids, stable legal system, etc. - and they also don't have any idea how bad things can get for them personally if things in this country go truly sideways.

Like, 'who cares if cops shoot black people, I'll never be a black person?' Or 'who cares if people in some other country get nuked?' It doesn't occur to them that those problems could ever touch them or someone they care about, and they're too awful to care about people they don't know.

.. I guess what I'm saying is, they're not crazy per se. They're willfully ignorant, intellectually dishonest, and so short sighted it's a wonder they don't run into doors, but I dunno about crazy.
posted by mordax at 5:42 PM on September 23, 2016 [31 favorites]

So I was in a sadistic mood and ended up looking for Trump on Twitter, and it's pretty clear he has not been in control of his twitter account anymore. This isn't his usual writing style-

"Hopefully the violence & unrest in Charlotte will come to an immediate end. To those injured, get well soon. We need unity & leadership."

That and it's written on Twitter for iPhone, not the Android that Trump uses.
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:43 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

New Clinton ad.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:00 PM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

That is fascinating, Doktor Zed
posted by Tarumba at 6:00 PM on September 23, 2016

3600 comments! poor mods

Poor mobile devices, more like. New thread, please?
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:03 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump Taps Rick Santorum

What, are we not doing "phrasing" anymore?

Also, since his Christian name is Richard, if one's going to get all nicknamey, shouldn't one, y'know, go for the gusto?
posted by petebest at 6:09 PM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

what if we just stopped talking about the election until the debate thread on monday

what then

what if we just did something else all weekend

i suggest overwatch but ymmv
posted by poffin boffin at 6:10 PM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]

Subnautica just released a new update. Also an excellent option. Time suck of the highest, eye-candiest order.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:12 PM on September 23, 2016

Yowser: "Trump's going to stiff his own campaign bill, calling it."

I can't believe any supplier isn't working on a Cash basis with the Trump Campaign. His entire modus operende is getting other people to pay for stuff, sucking all the juice out he can and then declaring bankruptcy.
posted by Mitheral at 6:17 PM on September 23, 2016

Trump Hotels Covered Up A Massive Credit Card Theft. Then They Let It Happen Again.

Over two years, payment systems at seven of Trump’s most prestigious hotels were hacked, and more than 70,000 credit card numbers were stolen, according to the New York attorney general. The breach affected Trump hotels in Chicago, Las Vegas, Toronto, Florida, Hawaii and New York ― in short, the crown jewels of Trump’s hospitality empire.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:20 PM on September 23, 2016 [20 favorites]

Should I freak out?
posted by pxe2000 at 6:21 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Musical interlude
posted by pxe2000 at 6:22 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Should I freak out?

No.
posted by procrastination at 6:24 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

Huh. Turns out the Trump Files shows that Trump agrees with MeFi on at least one point...

TRUMP: You're the Dilbert guy?
ADAMS: Correct.
TRUMP: You endorsed me today?
ADAMS: I did.
TRUMP: Just calling to say: no thank you.
ADAMS:

[Fake, but daaaaamn]
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:26 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

Jon Favreau has a new post up on The Ringer: Despairing the Debates
How Barack Obama learned to win the game he hates

Two weeks earlier, in Denver, President Obama had lost his first debate against Mitt Romney. It wasn’t close — the verdict was rendered just 10 minutes in by the Twittersphere and the live dial tests of undecided voters running across the bottom of the screen. But the collective freak-out that followed reached new heights of pundit hysteria.[...]

According to Nate Silver, Obama went from an 86 percent chance of victory on October 4 to a 61 percent chance on October 12. The End of Times was near.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:26 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

U.S. law enforcement is looking into Donald Trump foreign policy advisor Carter Page’s meetings with high-ranking Russian officials this summer, Yahoo’s Michael Isikoff reports.

One of the officials Page allegedly met with, Igor Diveykin, is “believed by U.S. officials to have responsibility for intelligence collected by Russian agencies about the U.S. election.” Russia is widely believed to be behind high-profile computer hacks that appear timed to influence the presidential election.

ThinkProgress obtained a letter from Sen. Harry Reid to the FBI, dated August 27, demanding an investigation into Page’s contacts with the Russians.

Hey. . . . Did y'all hear that? . . . Shhhhhhhh . . .
posted by petebest at 6:27 PM on September 23, 2016 [14 favorites]

Sell the furniture for extra cash.
posted by clavdivs at 6:28 PM on September 23, 2016

> Should I freak out?

Nah:

"We have never before seen a candidate like Donald Trump, and Donald Trump may well break patterns of history that have held since 1860."
posted by monospace at 6:31 PM on September 23, 2016

Yahoos blankety-blank reporter.
лол
posted by clavdivs at 6:34 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Regarding that "13 keys" system:

The keys are 13 true/false questions, where an answer of "true" always favors the reelection of the party holding the White House, in this case the Democrats. ...

Based on the 13 keys, it would predict a Donald Trump victory. Remember, six keys and you're out, and right now the Democrats are out — for sure — five keys. ... So very, very narrowly, the keys point to a Trump victory. But I would say, more to the point, they point to a generic Republican victory... he could defy all odds and lose even though the verdict of history is in his favor.

It's no shocker that party turnover after 8 years in office is expected, and that it normally takes either a charismatic candidate or an obvious voter mandate to disrupt that. But his system says nothing about individual candidates, and his terms are so vague he could apply them after the fact to declare that his system worked.

There's a point for "The incumbent administration is untainted by major scandal." Who decides what kind of scandal is "major?" A point for "no substantial third-party candidate" - again, by what measure?

If this system has predicted the last 30 years correctly, why didn't we hear his name during the last few elections? His track record involves waffling about Nader - and in this one, he's on record as waffling about Johnson. If Trump wins, he'll claim a victory; if he loses, he'll claim that Johnson wasn't a solid enough third-party contender.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:42 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

One theme Clinton has made very clear and continues to hammer: she will pick up the baton from Obama and carry it forward in a similar fashion. (A theme Gore stupidly failed to deploy during his run, when he should have embraced the other Clinton rather than pushing him away.) When the President is from your party and is popular, a lot of your campaign message is: "Oh yeah, you like that? Eight more years like that!"

Another major theme Clinton and the campaign have been pushing is "Love and Kindness" - which is more about how she will go about making change.

I do wish the public mockery of "It takes a village" hadn't been so pervasive in the 90s, because I think about that so often and it is so goddamn true about nearly everything in life. But I can see the campaign being wary about that because of the baggage and because of what a hate parade the Republicans threw about "You didn't build that!" (not the same thing, but similar).
posted by sallybrown at 6:48 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

By the way, that latest ad, the one with your vulnerable teenage daughter looking into the mirror while Donald Trump says disgusting things about her — that's one of the most devastating political ads I've ever seen.
posted by argybarg at 6:49 PM on September 23, 2016 [37 favorites]

Poor mobile devices, more like. New thread, please?

No. You've behaved badly already and look where it got you. Election threads are going to election thread. Moon's Day is the day. Moon's Day is the day.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:50 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

Julia Ioffe's piece on Carter Page is well worth a read: it raises more questions than it answers, but they're not the questions you might expect.
posted by holgate at 6:51 PM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

Didja hear the news about good ol' General Mercer?

Trump's team is apparently using sophisticated analytics* to identify Clinton's strengths, weaknesses, and "tells" based on past debate performance, to help Trump notice clues as to when she is asked a question she doesn't know how to answer, is trying to dodge, and so forth.

This seems much more plausible to me than the idea that he's completely blowing off debate prep. Trump may be a clown, but he works with a bunch of people who seem determined to at least try to rein him in and fence him in for a decent performance. I agree with others that the bumpkin version is what his campaign wants to put out there, to lower expectations.

(*The analytics firm is run by a father-daughter duo named Mercer, hence the gratuitous Hamilton reference above.)
posted by Superplin at 6:53 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Clinton: Yet More Change.
Clinton: Experienced & Capable (to not fuck it all up)
Clinton: Why not keep hoping? It's better than giving up.
Clinton. Listens, Thinks, Acts. (I like it but acts is a squishy word)
Clinton: Listens, Thinks, Leads. (Perhaps as improvement on the above? I'm actually trying here...)
Clinton: The Brains Behind Pa.
Clinton: Smart & Stong, like America.
Clinton: A Better Way Forward.
Clinton: Let's do this America Thing!
Clinton: Careful Leadership For Smart Change.
Clinton: Because Fuck That Asshat & His Bag Of Dicks.

Ok, I'm all thunk out.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:58 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

Yahoos blankety-blank reporter.
лол

From some -pedia or other: *ahem* "Michael Isikoff (pronounced Issickoff, born 1952) is an American investigative journalist, formerly with the United States magazine Newsweek. He joined Newsweek as an investigative correspondent in June 1994, and has written extensively on the U.S. government's War on Terrorism, the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse, campaign finance and congressional ethics abuses, presidential politics and other national issues.

On July 1, 2010, Isikoff became the national investigative correspondent for NBC News,[3] a position which he resigned in April, 2014, citing the network's move in a direction that left him with "fewer opportunities" for his work.[4]"

Story's got legs, I tells ya! Run boy, run!

"Isikoff had been prepared to break the Monica Lewinsky scandal, but several hours before going to print, the article was killed by top Newsweek executives. As a result, the story broke first on Matt Drudge's Drudge Report the following morning."

Huh. Did not know.
posted by petebest at 6:59 PM on September 23, 2016

OK so I was going to wait until the #nextpost but 36 hours is just to much torture for me to bear and maybe this will help someone else out way down here. I've been on a boat out at sea for 5 days with no Internet, only sirius radio (MSNBC, NPR, CNN, sound only, yes it's worse than TV) to keep me mildly up to date instead of all of your brilliant minds and diligent fingers. It took me two days to catch up (hang in there tehund, you can do it). I literally climbed the mast to get enough reception to load this thread, only to climb back down and find Chrome tried to reload the page and lost my reading material for the next 10 hours. So I beg of you, and I know this has been answered before but I just can't find it, what magic do I need to do to not reload the entire 3000 comment string to read the latest "### new comments"?
posted by danapiper at 7:26 PM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]

OK, Kirk Douglas is 100 years old? And still has the mental and physical energy to follow this garbage fire of an election? Jeez!
posted by suelac at 7:35 PM on September 23, 2016 [19 favorites]

that's one of the most devastating political ads I've ever seen.

At this point I just resign myself to the fact that every time I watch one of her ads I'm going to tear up.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 7:37 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

I literally climbed the mast to get enough reception to load this thread

I honestly feel bad about making you read my comments now, but also this is fantastic and I'm sorry for your loss. I just click the timestamp of the last comment I've read (i.e. 7:26 pm) and open it in a new tab or bookmark it, like this. You can also copy a distinctive phrase to search and find on the page. But given the reloading that still happens, maybe copying it and saving it as a PDF would be safer?
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:38 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's okay to stop paying attention to the election for a couple of days. If something genuinely gamechanging happens (Clinton gets caught in a real scandal, Eric Trump sheds the human suit and devours a baby) it'll probably still be news when you come back later.

Turn off the radio, chill the hell out, and if you can spare the time please destroy my internet connection so I can chill the hell out.
posted by fomhar at 7:39 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Further evidence that NYT is in the tank for Trump.
posted by Yowser at 7:43 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Julia Ioffe's piece on Carter Page is well worth a read

This dude sounds like an older version of my friend's douchebag ex, a walking Dunning-Kruger effect who decorates his apartment with framed stock certificates and unwittingly buys fake Burberry on Ebay.
posted by sallybrown at 7:47 PM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

From the politico story linked above:

Enter Carter Page, a 44-year-old PhD and business school graduate who claims an expertise in Russia and energy, yet who, I quickly discovered, was known by neither Russia experts nor energy experts nor Russian energy experts. . . Page also, as I would be surprised to discover, appears largely unknown to Trump’s own campaign.

March Bloomberg interview:

Page’s interest in Russia dates to his youth in New York’s Hudson Valley. Watching a TV news program on arms control talks, he says he noticed that the adviser sitting behind President Ronald Reagan wore a Navy uniform. A few years later, Page enrolled in the U.S. Naval Academy. He later worked in arms control at the Pentagon and completed a fellowship at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York.

*cough*spook*cough*
posted by petebest at 7:47 PM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

Further evidence that NYT is in the tank for Trump.

That's not really even a question anymore, it's established empirical fact.

Also #nonewthread till Monday. Let this one hit 5000, there's not enough time between now and the debate for a full new thread, and the debate will break the site in half. I resolve to limit further posts in this one to only extremely relevant links (or really, really top quality snark) and I suggest everyone else make the same pledge. Go outside, it's still nice fall weather and we can all meltdown together on Monday. #yeswecan...waituntilMonday.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:49 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

*cough*spook*cough*

If *that* fool of a guy is a spy for the U.S., we are well and truly fucked.
posted by sallybrown at 7:50 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think the suggestion was he's a spy for Russia.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:51 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump doesn't seem like the sort of person who'd welcome [Cruz] back into the fold. Sure, he put out a statement, but you know Trump will hold a grudge.

I vote for both. Trump's going to parade him on stage in a gimp mask, Christie-style.

In other news, Trump not winning the military. #1, #2
posted by ctmf at 7:51 PM on September 23, 2016

Further evidence that NYT is in the tank for Trump.

That's not really even a question anymore, it's established empirical fact.

It really isn't. And they really aren't. That was an interesting piece of journalism, documenting a fascinating feature of the internet age.
posted by dis_integration at 7:53 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

My goal for the rest of the election is to ignore trump, and all associated hand-wringing and excoriation, as much as possible - and to focus my energy on watching and reading about Hillary. I admit I did just watch Hillary's "daughters" ad (which was excoriating, if mercifully short)- but then stayed and watched a couple of other ads - "janelle" and "alethea".

There are so many great pieces out there demonstrating Hillary's social strengths, as well as her policies (this is my favourite so far) - if you want a change in pace in election coverage, you don't have to go far to find it.
posted by ianhattwick at 7:55 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

No mast-climbing required anymore, don't feel bad, jetlagaddict! I've tried the time stamp thing and I still lose my place when Chrome has a spontaneous unnecessary need to reload.

And yes, it was calming to be disconnected for few days, I wish I could have taken you all with me as a thank you for all the sanity-keeping you've done the past few months. Come to think of it, there might be a market there, boats with no Internet that just drive out into the middle of the ocean and force you to stop paying attention to things that needlessly drive you up a wall.... it is interesting to see what endured the week. Last week was omg Hillary's sick and dying but not really. This week was skittles.
posted by danapiper at 7:55 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

From the ctmf link: A Gallup poll conducted in January found that 42 percent of American voters identify as independents, the fifth year in a row that figure has been above 40 percent.

Approximately 29 percent of Americans now identify as Democrats and 26 percent as Republicans.

That must surely factor into the fairly-baffling Trump polling %?
posted by petebest at 8:00 PM on September 23, 2016

Shit, I'd take you up on it, danapiper. I work within sight of the ocean and just today found myself staring longingly out at the horizon, thinking about just how much I wanted to be on a boat out in the middle of it, out of sight of shore.

So I'm definitely gonna try to take a break from this thread until the new one! If you see me here this weekend, yell at me, I need to finish a thing instead of grimly clicking show new comments every half hour or so.
posted by yasaman at 8:01 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

I check under my bed for Russians every night before I can turn out the lights. How about you guys?
posted by indubitable at 8:02 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

I check under my bed for Russians every night before I can turn out the lights. How about you guys?

On Tuesday I found one in my closet.
posted by Jalliah at 8:04 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

Was it that creepy Manafort fucker?
posted by Artw at 8:08 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

What I did find, however, is that while Page might not be helping Trump, Trump has been a significant help to Page. Since being named by Trump as an advisor, Page, who has spent his career trying to put together energy deals in Russia and the former Soviet Union, has finally begun to be noticed in the region. He is being treated in Russia as a person with potentially important ties in America. “He’s an extremely well-informed, authoritative expert on Russia,” says Mikhail Leontiev, a pro-Kremlin talking head and spokesman for Rosneft, Russia’s state oil giant. “People really respect him in this industry. He’s a very serious guy, and he has a good reputation.” According to the Yahoo report, U.S. intelligence believes Page had an audience with top Russian officials—including Rosneft head Igor Sechin—during a summer trip to Moscow. From what I could find about him, it’s hard to imagine he could have secured those meetings without that mention by Trump.

A con-man. The Trump of the spy-set.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:09 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

*cough*spook*cough*

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking that. I know that Russian stuff is murky -- as Adrian Chen's piece on paid Russian trolling operations noted, shitposting and disinfo work well in a low-trust society -- and Ioffe's piece felt like it was entering the same territory.
posted by holgate at 8:10 PM on September 23, 2016

a walking Dunning-Kruger effect who decorates his apartment with framed stock certificates and unwittingly buys fake Burberry on Ebay.

This is such a wonderfully specific insult.
posted by infinitywaltz at 8:11 PM on September 23, 2016 [26 favorites]

Possible tip for offline thread reading:

In Chrome on my Galaxy 7, I can select "Print", and then save as a PDF file. Then, I open the "My Files" app (in the "Samsung" app group), and open it from there. It's awkward, but workable.

(This thread is currently 859 pages.)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:13 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

/wonders what percentage of the Trump campaign own katanas.
posted by Artw at 8:16 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Japanese sword, or the crotch-rocket motorcycle?
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:17 PM on September 23, 2016

Clinton: Yet More Change.
Clinton: Experienced & Capable (to not fuck it all up)
Clinton: Why not keep hoping? It's better than giving up.
Clinton. Listens, Thinks, Acts. (I like it but acts is a squishy word)
Clinton: Listens, Thinks, Leads. (Perhaps as improvement on the above? I'm actually trying here...)
Clinton: The Brains Behind Pa.
Clinton: Smart & Stong, like America.
Clinton: A Better Way Forward.
Clinton: Let's do this America Thing!
Clinton: Careful Leadership For Smart Change.
Clinton: Because Fuck That Asshat & His Bag Of Dicks.

Ok, I'm all thunk out.

Clinton: Tear Down This Wall!
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:24 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

So what's everyone doing for the debates?

I debated (heh) whether to watch – it's not like my vote is in question, and I'm sure it will stress me out. But, who am I kidding – I have to look.

But if I'm gonna subject myself to that, I feel the need to administer some self-care – and, perhaps oddly, to make it a dignified occasion. Alcohol will obviously be involved – Scotch would be my usual, but I need to moderate on a work night. A nice home-cooked meal: something comforting and carby, but understatedly classy. Perhaps something in the risotto or polenta area? Ooh, I know: Smitten Kitchen's fabulous mushroom bourguignon. Perfect for fall. Perhaps with a dry lambic, and figs and blue cheese for dessert.

Also, if anyone has any spare Vicodin, please hit a brother up
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:30 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

That "Mirror" ad is brutal toward Trump, because it's with his own words.

I have two sons, two daughters, and zero interest in electing that pig as a model for the former or a slap in the face to the latter.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:41 PM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]

I'll probably just eat all of my fingernails into bloody stumps.
posted by gatorae at 8:42 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

I don't know if I can watch. I do have a lot of homework for a master's in public administration that might as well be a master's in the history of pre apocalyptic public administration if the cheeto wins.

If I do watch I think my strategy will be to bypass savory carbs and go for something sweet and lots of alcohol.
Maybe a whole tiramisu and a gallon of wine.
posted by Tarumba at 8:44 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Will follow the liveblogging of it here because I do not wish to throw things at my television, or throw the television out the window, or anything like that because it will frighten the cats. I made a fantastic beef stroganoff not long ago and it was easy so I'll probably just rerun that.
posted by rtha at 8:48 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

On Tuesday I found one in my closet.

Friday I'm in love.
posted by bongo_x at 8:48 PM on September 23, 2016 [13 favorites]

I can't watch, I can't not watch. I was hoping that I'd have a rehearsal scheduled, thus making the question moot, but nope. Maybe I'll go to one of the open debate-watch parties announced on the campaign website, and sit in a corner, a little stranger who doesn't know anyone there.

In conclusion: :/
posted by seyirci at 8:49 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

If I start drinking, I will get alcohol poisoning and possibly die. I'm not going to be able to watch the debates for personal sanity reasons, but I will be reading the thread, refreshing compulsively and nervously dry-heaving. CAN'T WAIT, GOING TO BE A LOT OF FUN.
posted by infinitywaltz at 8:52 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm hosting a debate-watching party and there is LOTS of booze on the menu!
posted by Sublimity at 8:54 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

So what's everyone doing for the debates?

Ugh, I recently realized that Italian TV might not show the debate.* So I may need to find some sort of Democrats Abroad watch party. Or find a live audio stream? But I think my phone might explode if I try to stream something while running the thread.

It is not a great time for my laptop to be on the other side of the planet.

*I'm on vacation in Rome
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:56 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

That mushroom bourguignon though

:O
posted by Tarumba at 8:57 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

/wonders what percentage of the Trump campaign own katanas.

//am assuming <5%^* of those are full tang

*further assumption is that there is a lot of disposable income in this demo for the "inadvertently bought something worthwhile"

Debates will be streamed and the day's thread will tell us about those, right?
posted by porpoise at 8:58 PM on September 23, 2016

Margaret-effing-Thatcher used slogans like 'There is no alternative' and 'Vote for a better future'. In much the same way that black people aren't allowed to extemporaneously express anger in public, women aren't allowed to make imperative calls for action. When they do they are ridiculed at best. The mistake in criticizing the Clinton campaign's choice of slogan is, once again, assuming that Clinton and Trump are competing on a level playing ground. They are not. Trump is permitted to do and say things that Clinton is not because he is male. This privilege extends to all parts of his campaign, including slogans, theses, what-have-you.
posted by um at 9:01 PM on September 23, 2016 [48 favorites]

I don't think I can bear watching a debate without being fairly comfortable about how Clinton will do, so I'm going to skip the first one. Also, I have chorus practice, so that gives me a good excuse.
posted by suelac at 9:06 PM on September 23, 2016

I'm so tired of people saying, "Just do everything they say and you won't get hurt."

That's advice you give hostages about kidnappers, not citizens about police.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:10 PM on September 23, 2016 [68 favorites]

I realized last week that I will literally be in an airplane for the entire debate.

I am so happy that I won't have to watch it, but I'm terrified about what that means about this race.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 9:11 PM on September 23, 2016

I'm so tired of people saying, "Just do everything they say and you won't get hurt."

What's worth is the three different friends-of-friends who have posted on my FB feed this week saying "I was pulled over yesterday. I was calm and reasonable and didn't get shot. What's so hard about that?"

Yeah, they're all white. But that's probably a coincidence.
posted by mmoncur at 9:13 PM on September 23, 2016 [27 favorites]

Every time I pass a blue H hospital sign I hope somebody will spraypaint the missing arrow on it overnight.
posted by perspicio at 9:29 PM on September 23, 2016 [22 favorites]

I see it as a political fact that the candidates that do a good job of articulating a clear, unified notion of what they want to do, of what outcome they intend for their presidency, do better than those relying on long lists of policy proposals.

I've found the core of her message to be consistent and compelling - the USA is made of a wide swath of different people and we're stronger together when we support each other and make sure every citizen is respected. The DNC was soaked in it - both in terms of what people said, and in terms of the sheer variety of the people she put on stage. Even her "attack" ads have been about reinforcing the idea that the diversity of the US is a benefit and we shouldn't let hateful speech set us against each other. Her response to the LGBTQ community after she misspoke on Reagan and AIDS - to apologize and bring the people who critiqued her into her campaign to improve it - is evidence it's not just words. She won't - she can't - be "perfect" but I'm a fan of her goals and ideals for this country and I don't think she's been at all subtle about her message.
posted by Deoridhe at 9:35 PM on September 23, 2016 [26 favorites]

I check under my bed for Russians every night before I can turn out the lights. How about you guys?

if my gf was under the bed it would be pretty weird tbh even when we are fighting about the same damn thing for literally the 57th time
posted by poffin boffin at 9:58 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

Ted Cruz's full endorsement of Trump, as posted on Facebook
posted by mazola at 10:03 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm having minor surgery Monday, and while I should hopefully be home recovering by debate time, I'm not sure how alert I'll be. Since I don't get any TV channels I'll have to stream it, and I'll definitely be relying on you people for ongoing commentary.

Post-surgery I almost certainly won't be able to drink, and I'm not sure how much or what I'll be able to eat. I can only hope that they'll send me home with some good drugs, I guess. Those would help regardless of the outcome. Anything to take the edge off this anxiety razor.
posted by Superplin at 10:13 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

Y'know, few things make me admire someone, or at least respect their actions, more than their standing up for their family. Few things earn my contempt more than selling out their family for political gain.

During the 2000 Republican primary in South Carolina, George W. Bush's campaign insinuated that John McCain's  8-year-old adopted daughter from Bangladesh was a "Negro child" born out of wedlock. McCain smacked Bush down in 2000, but in 2008 he hired the guy behind the attack and disgracefully sucked up to Bush.

As much as I loathe him, Cruz was right to oppose Trump, and right to defend his wife and father against Trump's nonsensical attacks. Now he's sold out his family. And for what?
posted by kirkaracha at 10:36 PM on September 23, 2016 [25 favorites]

The Disappearing Ink of Kim Kardashian’s Trump Support
Once again, there is no reality for Reality TV people.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:06 PM on September 23, 2016

The Trump campaign bought 3500 copies of his own book with donor money to give away to delegates at the RNC. If Trump got any royalties from the sales, that would be (more) illegal self-dealing.
posted by suelac at 11:15 PM on September 23, 2016 [14 favorites]

Does someone have a comprehensive list of everything illegal that we're more than 80% sure he's done? The paintings, these books, I can't keep up with this shit.
posted by fomhar at 11:30 PM on September 23, 2016

Q: Did he actually not lose money on something?
A: Then it was obviously illegal.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:41 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

Fortunately I don't even have to make a choice to watch the debate or not as I have class on Monday nights. Here's hoping Colbert is on top of his game though.
posted by clorox at 12:12 AM on September 24, 2016

Hey, y'all. You know how Trump runs around telling people he built up his own business with just a "small" loan of one million dollars from daddy?

Posted: April 09, 1991

ATLANTIC CITY — One of Donald Trump's casinos has admitted that it broke the law and violated terms of its license when the developer's father lent it $3.5 million by purchasing gaming chips when he had no plans to gamble, the state Division of Gaming Enforcement said yesterday.

For this he paid a $30,000 fine and got to keep the interest-free "loan" in the form of unused grey chips worth $5,000 each.
posted by xyzzy at 1:16 AM on September 24, 2016 [18 favorites]

(Also, I wonder how much space Trump oppo research takes up on a hard drive.)
posted by xyzzy at 1:18 AM on September 24, 2016

It seems to me that Clinton's messaging problem, insofar as it exists, comes from a combination of things: she's been in public life for well over 30 years, she has changed in that time, she has been willing to compromise on her previously stated positions, she is a woman who is very good at the man's game of politics, she has made questionable calls and serious mistakes in her career, she doesn't trust the media with a lot. In short, she's complicated. And I've left a lot of things off that list. Every part of her career has given her a new segment of people to alienate, some with better cause than others. Combine that with the misogynistic double standards that she constantly has to battle. All of that together means that many people won't listen to her; when they do listen, they won't believe her.

I don't think think people are wrong to say she has a messaging problem with some segments of the electorate. I just don't think there's a whole lot she can do about it. She'd have to not be herself.
posted by bardophile at 2:18 AM on September 24, 2016 [12 favorites]

The So what's everyone doing for the debates?


Hopefully working late. I'll catch up on the highlights & "analysis" between 10 & midnight.
posted by Devils Rancher at 2:26 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm thinking about skittles-infused vodka cocktails and baloney sliders for my debate watch party...
posted by danapiper at 2:31 AM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

Margaritas are traditional.
posted by Justinian at 3:01 AM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

Margaritas are traditional.

Vodka seems appropriate this time around.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:11 AM on September 24, 2016 [8 favorites]

I check under my bed for Russians every night before I can turn out the lights. How about you guys?

if my gf was under the bed it would be pretty weird tbh

Maybe people go under there because they just like the peace and quiet

that's not weird you don't know them
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:17 AM on September 24, 2016 [12 favorites]

I'm going to the Somerville for Hillary Debate-Watching Party. If I'm going to watch this, I have to be with my people.
posted by pxe2000 at 5:05 AM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Uh, guys, the only Metafilter approved debate food is guacamole. Come on, you all know this.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:13 AM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

Well, guacamole or a plate of beans.
posted by knapah at 5:19 AM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

Cincinnati Enquirer Endorses Clinton

Generally speaking, newspaper endorsements are not of much interest, since they don't move the needle very much anymore. This one's a bit more significant, though, because (a) Ohio is a swing state, and (b) the Enquirer hasn't endorsed a Democrat since they threw their support behind Woodrow Wilson in 1916. And he was a very different kind of Democrat. That means they went for Hoover in the midst of the Great Depression, preferred Goldwater over LBJ, believed Dewey would defeat Truman, and thrice gave their blessing to Richard Nixon. Endorsing Donald Trump, however, was a bridge too far.
-- Zenger, Electoral-Vote.com

Cincinnati Enquirer: It has to be Hillary Clinton

The Enquirer has supported Republicans for president for almost a century – a tradition this editorial board doesn’t take lightly. But this is not a traditional race, and these are not traditional times. Our country needs calm, thoughtful leadership to deal with the challenges we face at home and abroad. We need a leader who will bring out the best in all Americans, not the worst. That’s why there is only one choice when we elect a president in November: Hillary Clinton.

Clinton is a known commodity with a proven track record of governing. As senator of New York, she earned respect in Congress by working across the aisle and crafting bills with conservative lawmakers. She helped 9/11 first responders get the care they needed after suffering health effects from their time at Ground Zero, and helped expand health care and family leave for military families. Clinton has spent more than 40 years fighting for women's and children's rights. As first lady, she unsuccessfully fought for universal health care but helped to create the Children's Health Insurance Program that provides health care to more than 8 million kids today. She has been a proponent of closing the gender wage gap and has stood up for LGBT rights domestically and internationally, including advocating for marriage equality.

Trump is a clear and present danger to our country. . . . has no foreign policy experience, and the fact that he doesn't recognize it – instead insisting that, "I know more about ISIS than the generals do" – is even more troubling. His wild threats to blow Iranian ships out of the water if they make rude gestures at U.S. ships is just the type of reckless, cowboy diplomacy Americans should fear from a Trump presidency. The fact that so many top military and national security officials are not supporting Trump speaks volumes.

Clinton has been criticized as being hawkish but has shown a measured approach to the world's problems. . . .

Clinton was a competent secretary of state, with far stronger diplomatic skills than she gets credit for. . . .

Her presidential campaign has been an inclusive one, reflected by the diversity of her supporters. . . .

Clinton has talked about building bridges, not walls, and has a plan to keep immigrant families together with a path to citizenship.

We have our issues with Clinton. . . . But our reservations about Clinton pale in comparison to our fears about Trump.

Trump brands himself as an outsider untainted by special interests, but we see a man utterly corrupted by self-interest. His narcissistic bid for the presidency is more about making himself great than America. Trump tears our country and many of its people down with his words so that he can build himself up. . . .

While Clinton has been relentlessly challenged about her honesty, Trump was the primary propagator of arguably the biggest lie of the past eight years: that Obama wasn't born in the United States.

Trump has played fast and loose with the support of white supremacist groups.

He has praised some of our country's most dangerous enemies – see Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong Un and Saddam Hussein – while insulting a sitting president, our military generals, a Gold Star family and prisoners of war like Sen. John McCain.

. . . going two weeks without saying something misogynistic, racist or xenophobic is hardly a qualification for the most important job in the world.

Why should anyone believe that a Trump presidency would look markedly different from his offensive, erratic, stance-shifting presidential campaign?

It’s true that he has created jobs, but he also has sent many overseas and left a trail of unpaid contractors in his wake. His refusal to release his tax returns draws into question both Trump’s true income and whether he is paying his fair share of taxes. Even if you consider Trump a successful businessman, running a government is not the same as being the CEO of a company. The United States cannot file bankruptcy to avoid paying its debts.

[. . . ]

In these uncertain times, America needs a brave leader, not bravado. Real solutions, not paper-thin promises. A clear eye toward the future, not a cynical appeal to the good old days.

Hillary Clinton has her faults, certainly, but she has spent a lifetime working to improve the lives of Americans both inside and outside of Washington. It's time to elect the first female U.S. president – not because she's a woman, but because she's hands-down the most qualified choice.
-- Cincinnati Enquirer editorial board

posted by Herodios at 5:35 AM on September 24, 2016 [66 favorites]

Fahrenthold is digging deeper and Trump responds with another forceful "NUH UH!"
posted by Talez at 5:37 AM on September 24, 2016

I was curious whether any newspapers had endorsed Trump. According to Wikipedia, only four--and one of those is trashy tabloid National Enquirer. Real!
posted by Sublimity at 5:50 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

A house divided.
posted by octothorpe at 5:53 AM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Clinton is a known commodity"

LoL.
Oh man is she going to face such a fused society politically.

It will resemble the Pierce presidency.
posted by clavdivs at 5:54 AM on September 24, 2016

TNR: Trump’s White Supremacy Platform Comes into Focus: He promises the enrichment and safeguarding of white people at the expense of the principle of equal protection.
posted by chris24 at 6:03 AM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

I realized last week that I will literally be in an airplane for the entire debate.

I am so happy that I won't have to watch it, but I'm terrified about what that means about this race.

You're concerned that by not observing it, you are altering the outcome?
posted by indubitable at 6:09 AM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm going to the Somerville for Hillary Debate-Watching Party. If I'm going to watch this, I have to be with my people.

My husband and I signed up too (in Davis Square, right?). Hope we see you there!
posted by peacheater at 6:11 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

LoL.
Oh man is she going to face such a fused society politically.

It will resemble the Pierce presidency.

So you predict that she will quash the BLM movement, nullify the Civil Rights Act, fail to acquire Cuba, set the stage for a second Civil War in the US, and be abandoned by the Democratic party and drink herself to death? Such positive thoughts.
posted by xyzzy at 6:12 AM on September 24, 2016 [9 favorites]

Yeah for some reason I read that as "Alexander Pierce" from the MCU and was like, "Nah, he can't be president. He was killed by Fury when Cap brought down the helicarriers. Also the Hydra thing would probably be bad news."

Just the thought of actually watching the debates makes me anxious, but this time I'm determined to power through and share it with any of you who will be there. At the very least, posting might keep me from screaming.
posted by Salieri at 6:23 AM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm at the Hillary event this morning at Nashua for Liz Warren leading on to canvassing. Turnout is good.
posted by Talez at 6:35 AM on September 24, 2016 [14 favorites]

Vape, coffee, rice-spinach-eggs, thread, Eric Satie and a cool morning breeze. Such is my Saint Louis morning. I'm in the bubble.
Today i will try to keep my cool. Today I will try to empathize. Today I'll try again to overcome laziness.
Tomorrow? Nobody knows...but right now I'm just happy to have friends. Thanks, everyone.
posted by bird internet at 6:41 AM on September 24, 2016 [20 favorites]

Guys, the "Check Thread" light keeps coming on. Is that bad?

*sniff*sniff* *sniff* *snf*

*shrug*

"Trump’s top advisers have held a series of tense conversations in recent days about how to close a fundraising hole that’s grown to over $200 million – a deficit that’s led Trump to essentially cede the TV airwaves to his Democratic rival. The discussions, which were relayed by more than a half-dozen sources, have veered into finger pointing, with some participants pinning the blame on the Republican National Committee or on Steven Mnuchin, Trump’s national finance chairman and a newcomer to the political scene.

. . . But Kushner, a wealthy real estate executive and New York Observer publisher who has taken on an increasingly influential role in the campaign, pushed back forcefully – telling Beach in no uncertain terms that the Dallas investor didn’t know what he was talking about. Kushner, who is regularly in touch with Walsh and party chairman Reince Priebus, argued that the committee had been proven itself to be responsive. He reserved particular praise for Walsh.

. . . That’s when Woody Johnson jumped in. By that point, the call had gone on for nearly 45 minutes, and Johnson – the billionaire owner of the New York Jets – had had enough. Addressing Bailey directly, Johnson said that the best way to win over uncommitted donors was by contacting them, not sitting on conference calls. Then, the Jets owner abruptly hung up."

*fanfare* Let the Machevellian recriminatiooooooons! . . . BEGIN!
posted by petebest at 6:46 AM on September 24, 2016 [15 favorites]

AM Joy (Joy Reid) just came on, on MSNBC. She's probably the closest thing to what a metafilter member would be like, on television. Support her show if you can.
posted by cashman at 7:02 AM on September 24, 2016 [14 favorites]

"Once informed that the sender's name is believed to be pseudonym used by the president, Abedin exclaimed: 'How is this not classified?'" the report says. "Abedin then expressed her amazement at the president's use of a pseudonym and asked if she could have a copy of the email"

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story

OMG, I think I'm going spilt a seam.
posted by clavdivs at 7:04 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

cashman: "AM Joy (Joy Reid) just came on, on MSNBC. She's probably the closest thing to what a metafilter member would be like, on television. Support her show if you can."

We ditched cable earlier in the year and now as the election nears, I am so happy that we did that. (I do miss baseball, though).
posted by octothorpe at 7:13 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

Watching AM Joy is sanity preserving right up until you realize what a gulf there is between AM Joy and standard cable news shows. Like a panel of POC talking about police brutality against POC shouldn't be all that unique.

Also, McCrory is going to lose right?
posted by schadenfrau at 7:15 AM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

An entire segment about whether we should trust police? Also shouldn't be unique.

I want Joy in the flagship show yesterday. She is better -- just better --than Chuck Todd in every conceivable way.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:19 AM on September 24, 2016 [10 favorites]

Buzzfeed News: The Inconvenient Truths Of Polling That Every Voter Should Know: To correct any departures from known demographics, pollsters have long “weighted” their results. If a sample contains only half as many 18 to 25 year olds as it should, for example, and twice as many people over 65, the young voters would be given a weight of two, and the older ones a weight of 0.5. So every young person who said they intended to vote for Trump or Clinton would count twice, while two older supporters would be needed to register a single preference for each candidate.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:21 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Once informed that the sender's name is believed to be pseudonym used by the president, Abedin exclaimed: 'How is this not classified?'" the report says. "Abedin then expressed her amazement at the president's use of a pseudonym and asked if she could have a copy of the email"

We're going to have an orange fucking toddler for president. Jesus Christ.
posted by Talez at 7:25 AM on September 24, 2016

AP Politics
Trump campaign plans $140 million ad buy

The total, if executed, would include $100 million in television airtime and $40 million in digital ads, according to senior communications adviser Jason Miller.

The plan represents a new approach for the billionaire businessman, who has repeatedly bragged in recent weeks about how much less he's spent than Democratic rival Hillary Clinton and seemed to rely heavily on free media coverage of his large rallies.

Through this week, the Trump campaign has put only about $22 million into TV and radio ads for the general election, according to Kantar Media's political advertising tracker. Clinton has spent more than five times as much on those kinds of ads, $124 million so far.

He only has $50 million in the bank so either he is going to kick in some more of his own money or he is engaging in wishful thinking. Or possibly he plans on going into debt and then "re-structuring" the debt once the campaign is over.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:26 AM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

Maybe Russia will pay for it - who knows?
posted by Golem XIV at 7:29 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

He's going to do an ad blitz and make Russia pay for it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:34 AM on September 24, 2016 [8 favorites]

From the politico article:
The interviews provide more insight into Clinton's lack of technical acumen. According to the FBI's Abedin writeup, she "could not use a computer"; Hanley said Clinton had no idea what her own email password was, and had to rely on aides.

This is probably the core issue here, and in that case, it's on the State Department, not Hillary.

This year, Sanders, Clinton and Trump are all grandparents-aged people with little understanding of computers. This is the main thing that is is disappointing to me, but I am not a US voter. Anyhow, I am also not ageist, and IMHO, the relevant organizations should be providing the services needed so our leaders can work optimally.
posted by mumimor at 7:39 AM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

This is probably the core issue here, and in that case, it's on the State Department, not Hillary.

More or less, yes. Hillary had precisely one requirement. A single device she could carry around with her that was able to check her personal and her work email at the same time. The State Department IT couldn't give her that and it isn't an unreasonable requirement.
posted by Francis at 7:41 AM on September 24, 2016 [23 favorites]

We're going to have an orange fucking toddler for president. Jesus Christ.

Because the President uses a pseudonym to send email?
posted by xyzzy at 7:43 AM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

The major problem for Trump is that doing an ad blitz is pretty pointless at this point because let's be honest everyone at this point knows the candidates and the number of undecided voters is exceedingly small.

Basically Trump is trying to convert the Johnson voters (and maybe Stein accelerationists) but 2-way polling actually has Clinton expanding her lead in a 2-way battle which means that the bulk of third party supporters actually loathe Trump.

So where Trump really needs to be spending money is on GotV operations in battleground states where he's completely outnumbered by Hillary and let's be honest even if you dropped $140 million on GotV operations it's too late you simply can't scale up in time.

In contrast Hillary has had her GotV operation in full force for more than a year. She probably can't spend any more money on it (declining marginal utility) so at this point her money is going to be spent on TV Ads (many of which she locked in at better rates months ago) which is also designed to help down ballot tickets.

The big loser is of course down ballot Republicans who depend on the Presidential candidate to provide lots of supplemental advertising. They are taking a beating right now and the state level polling supports the idea that they are probably going to lose big (although a wave election that results in Speaker Pelosi is unlikely).

The only reason why the Senate is even looking like it could result in a 50-50 split is that the Democrats put up some really bad senate candidates in some races.
posted by vuron at 7:44 AM on September 24, 2016 [13 favorites]

Because the President uses a pseudonym to send email?

No because the continuing perception of impropriety keeps eroding people from Hillary's support.
posted by Talez at 7:49 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

I dunno, maybe it's just me but I think people may be sick of hearing about her damn emails.
(see also: Lauering the bar)
posted by petebest at 7:55 AM on September 24, 2016 [20 favorites]

Meh, I have to think that of all Clinton's putative email sins, this is pretty weak sauce. Of course the president uses a pseudonym to send emails. I'd be shocked if he didn't, given how many people are likely to see them.
posted by GrammarMoses at 7:56 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, does Benghazi work as anything but a GOP snark anymore?
posted by petebest at 7:56 AM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

The big loser is of course down ballot Republicans who depend on the Presidential candidate to provide lots of supplemental advertising. They are taking a beating right now and the state level polling supports the idea that they are probably going to lose big (although a wave election that results in Speaker Pelosi is unlikely).

Unfortunately I think this is very wishful thinking, Senate polling has the Democrats now trailing in every competitive race other than Illinois, Wisconsin and Indiana, with Pennsylvania a dead heat, which projects to a 51 or 52 seat Republican Senate. And if they're down like that in the Senate, the House isn't even a discussion. I don't think there's any evidence Trump is having any significant affect on the down ballot.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:58 AM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

because the continuing perception of impropriety keeps eroding people from Hillary's support.

You're making the mistake of thinking that the the perception follows from unfolding evidence, rather than the other way around.
posted by argybarg at 7:59 AM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

How does Obama's decision to use a pseudonym reflect on Clinton? What's the issue? What impropriety?
posted by JackFlash at 8:04 AM on September 24, 2016 [12 favorites]

Trump's wild spending spree won't happen.

His campaign does not have $140million. Nor will it get $140million. He has access to about $50million raised by the RNC, and that's it. There is no more.

Trump himself *cannot* kick in a significant amount more. He has neither the capital nor the credit to do so, even if he wanted to. If he did, his highly-leveraged businesses do not have the liquidity.

Trump has already paid in everything he will. He built the honey trap, and now he's in collection mode. He's funnelling every dollar back into his businesses.

The big donors are dumping their cash down-ticket. The small donors are being treated as rubes and are mostly buying TRUMP! hotel rooms for TRUMP! staffers. The cash is flowing nicely back into the TRUMP! coffers.

He will spend more on media buys - but it will be with media owned by his team, and the kickbacks will flow.

Why do you think he's buying space on breitbart? To persuade their voters not to vote for Hillary?

It's not a Presidential campaign. It's a scam that is close to actual fraud.
posted by Combat Wombat at 8:05 AM on September 24, 2016 [69 favorites]

No because the continuing perception of impropriety keeps eroding people from Hillary's support.

I would be a bit shocked if the President didn't use a pseudonym to send email. If people are in a hizzy about his lying to the press about knowing about the private email server, then I submit that this is Obama's problem, not so much Hillary's. But the idea that HRC or Obama should be expected to understand anything more than "magic box makes words happen that get beamed to other magic box" when it comes to the structure of the government IT networks is pretty reachy. I don't think that Obama spent much time wondering if HRC was following the State Dept. rules--he rightly assumed that she and her staff should be responsible for that infrastructure. That she screwed it up is really not on him and that he lied to the press is really not her problem. If he even lied--someone else probably loads his contacts and he just had to type "hillary" and autofill would do the rest.

The thing that really kills me about all the email crap is that no Sec. of State prior to Powell personally used email. And I'm fairly sure that Bush, Jr. didn't use email, either.
posted by xyzzy at 8:10 AM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

WaPo: 50% of America's single parents, 20% of families with kids, could see a tax hike under Trump's tax plan
posted by melissasaurus at 8:10 AM on September 24, 2016 [9 favorites]

That realclearpolitics Senate Polling link shows GOP with 44 seats until September (pneumonia) when it rose to 46 with 7 seats categorized as "toss ups". Wouldn't the debates and a likely surge of conscience and/or decency lift those boats in a possible 51 majority?
posted by petebest at 8:13 AM on September 24, 2016

I wish I truly thought a surge of conscience and/or decency was likely.
posted by GrammarMoses at 8:15 AM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

50% of America's single parents, 20% of families with kids, could see a tax hike under Trump's tax plan

Yeah, this is happening here too, it's the new right: get the poor to pay for the rich
posted by mumimor at 8:16 AM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, this is happening here too, it's the new right: get the poor to pay for the rich

That's just called capitalism.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:17 AM on September 24, 2016 [11 favorites]

Wouldn't the debates and a likely surge of conscience and/or decency lift those boats in a possible 51 majority?

Well, let's hope, but I'd still put that in the category of wishful thinking looking at the specific races. Basically they need McGinty to win a 50-50 race in PA, Hassan to pull back ahead of Ayotte in NH, AND either Heck or Burr to falter in NV or NC. The rest of the races are all but over with Dems pulling support for miserable candidates Strickland and Murphy in OH and FL. There's an outside chance of Jason Kander pulling the upset in MO, or something incredibly weird and unlikely happening with special cases in AK or LA, but that's not even "wishful thinking", it's fanfic territory. Oh, and they're still counting on Evan Bayh to win Indiana even with all of this, with Trump polling at +11, that doesn't seem like a sure thing to me either in an underpolled race.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:22 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

How does Obama's decision to use a pseudonym reflect on Clinton? What's the issue? What impropriety?


It has "Clinton" and "email" in the same sentence. At this point it's just a default assumption that every time she used a computer it was for nefarious purposes.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:25 AM on September 24, 2016 [7 favorites]

I don't think that Obama spent much time wondering if HRC was following the State Dept. rules

She was following the rules. The rules allow the use of personal email for work. Those were the rules when Clinton was in office. Those are still the rules today. Hundreds of government officials use personal email, at least part of the time, for work. That is not forbidden by rules. It is a normal thing.

That she screwed it up is really not on him.

What did she screw up? It's rather annoying, that even after all of these threads on email, people are still repeating Republican disinformation.
posted by JackFlash at 8:26 AM on September 24, 2016 [52 favorites]

Remember when watching an unpredictable womanizer in a toupeé rant about someone named Khan was how we took our minds off the real world? Good times.
posted by petebest at 8:26 AM on September 24, 2016 [30 favorites]

It has "Clinton" and "email" in the same sentence.

Yep, that's all it takes.
posted by Surely This at 8:33 AM on September 24, 2016

So, I'm going on a last minute camping trip Monday. I seriously thought about not going to watch the debate, but a) it's probably the last time to go camping before it gets too cold and b) sitting in the woods in front of a fire is probably way better for my mental health. I'm still going to watch it when I get back, though. And I think it'll be better because I'll already know what the overall outcome is (and the major sound bites). I have a request, though. In the debate thread, when the debate actually starts, can somebody post a big DEBATE BEGINS comment so I can easily tell when to sync my reading/watching? Thanks, and hold down the fort!
posted by Weeping_angel at 8:42 AM on September 24, 2016 [9 favorites]

Politicians who debate Hillary Clinton have a history of falling into an obvious trap:

For her entire public life, Hillary Clinton has lived in a world whose rules and dynamics are dictated by men. Running for president is no different, except the stakes are that much higher. While Clinton has been engaged in a lifelong fight against gender discrimination, there has been one kind of situation where she has been able to use male sexism to her distinct advantage: televised debates.

posted by kirkaracha at 9:16 AM on September 24, 2016 [7 favorites]

NYT just endorsed Hillary.
posted by hilaryjade at 9:17 AM on September 24, 2016 [27 favorites]

They took a pass on the nazi? Amazing.
posted by valkane at 9:21 AM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

"Clinton Campaign: Trump Cannot Pass Debate Test If He Repeats These Debunked Lies:

In a prebuttal to the first presidential debate, Hillary for America officials today released a damning list of Donald Trump’s most discredited lies from the campaign so far, and said that repeating these false claims would make it impossible for him to get a passing grade in Monday’s critical test before the voters. According to PolitiFact, a whopping 70% of Trump’s claims are untrue.

posted by bardophile at 9:22 AM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

They took a pass on the nazi? Amazing.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
posted by Talez at 9:24 AM on September 24, 2016 [10 favorites]

"We will explain in a subsequent editorial why we believe Mr. Trump to be the worst nominee put forward by a major party in modern American history."
posted by kirkaracha at 9:29 AM on September 24, 2016 [13 favorites]

NYT just endorsed Hillary.

I hope they remember to notify the news desk.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:29 AM on September 24, 2016 [42 favorites]

Uh, guys, the only Metafilter approved debate food is guacamole. Come on, you all know this.

Campaign Remedy Guacamole recipe still available on request. Sadly I'll have to skip it, post-surgery, so I'll need the rest of you to take up the slack.
posted by Superplin at 9:30 AM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

I hope they remember to notify the news desk.

I wonder at the number of qualifiers and nothingburgers dressed up as concerns.
posted by Artw at 9:33 AM on September 24, 2016

Hanley said Clinton had no idea what her own email password was, and had to rely on aides.

Ten years ago, I knew what my passwords were, all of them - because I had to enter them every time I went to the site. Today... meh. I remember a couple of crucial ones and count on my browser to remember the rest. If I forget, I use the "lost your password" button. I have forgotten my main email's password several times and had to use various methods to recover it.

I don't fault anyone for forgetting an online password; it's not like you use it more than once every few months - less, depending on your digital arrangement. I enter my passwords less often than I enter my own phone number into forms. We don't castigate people for saying, "oops, gimme a moment; I have to look up my phone number;" whydahell is it news that someone can't remember a combo of letter-number-special-character designed to be hard to randomly generate?

(That said, I can't wait for the tumblr generation to start entering politics, for people who grew up not only with internet, but with the assumption that every bit of interesting news in your life would be instantly internationally broadcast to start seeking jobs that have traditionally been shrouded in aloof secrecy.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:34 AM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

So here's what I don't get about that "$140 million ad buy on the way" story. Multiple people upthread pointed out that the Trump campaign doesn't have more than $50 million. I don't have time to check right now, but I know that information is freely available on the FEC website, and I'm assuming that's where MetaFilter commenters or their sources got it from.

Why–no, let me rephrase that. Whyyyyyyyyyy does it not occur to the people reporting the $140 million number wherever they got it from, to go check the same thing that's so easy to find out, and report that situation as a follow-up statement? Here, I'll give them a start: www.fec.gov. It's not even hard to find, it's, like, two clicks in.

Sigh.
posted by seyirci at 9:39 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

Looks like business is not so good at the new hotel

NYT: Donald Trump’s Shiny New Washington Hotel

WASHINGTON — When Donald Trump labeled Mexican immigrants “rapists” in announcing his candidacy in June of last year, he lost contracts with Nascar, Macy’s, NBC Universal, Univision, even Serta mattresses. Not surprisingly, his three eldest children — Ivanka, Donald Jr. and Eric — began worrying about whether the marketability of the Trump brand could survive the campaign undamaged.

Worry they should, if Mr. Trump’s new hotel, which Mr. Trump himself opened last week, is any indication. The hotel is on Pennsylvania Avenue, a short walk from the White House, and to a lot of people, just walking through the door seems like a political act. Mr. Trump’s name festoons the key cards, the laundry bags, the bathrobes and slippers. It’s hard not to feel that a dollar spent there is a dollar for the Trump campaign.

“I don’t know who’s going to book it, because it’s so contentious,” a local convention planner said.

On Tuesday, the place seemed eerily empty. You could book a room for next weekend for less than $400. A week ago, the minimum rate was twice that.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:41 AM on September 24, 2016 [12 favorites]

I hope Hillary is enjoying herself today, reading these endorsements. She deserves them.
posted by valkane at 9:41 AM on September 24, 2016 [23 favorites]

Talez: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

You can't get fooled again!
posted by Weeping_angel at 9:42 AM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

@RealDonaldTrump:If dopey Mark Cuban of failed Benefactor fame wants to sit in the front row, perhaps I will put Jennifer Flowers right alongside of him!

Her name is Gennifer.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:45 AM on September 24, 2016 [14 favorites]

Why–no, let me rephrase that. Whyyyyyyyyyy does it not occur to the people reporting the $140 million number wherever they got it from, to go check the same thing that's so easy to find out, and report that situation as a follow-up statement? Here, I'll give them a start: www.fec.gov. It's not even hard to find, it's, like, two clicks in.

Sigh.
posted by seyirci at 12:39 PM

The link that I shared this morning: Trump campaign plans $140 million ad buy does mention that

Trump's advertising plan costs more than his campaign has in the bank, meaning he needs to dip into his own pockets or continue raising major money.

As of Sept. 1, the campaign had about $50 million in cash, though in a news release earlier this month, the campaign said it had $97 million in cash when including his joint accounts with Republican Party allies.

So I am not really sure what your beef is.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:52 AM on September 24, 2016

You're concerned that by not observing it, you are altering the outcome?

oh God please, not quantum politics!
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:53 AM on September 24, 2016 [11 favorites]

Only losers know how to spel.
posted by valkane at 9:54 AM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump had $50 mil. as of three weeks ago. Presumably he's still raising money.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:55 AM on September 24, 2016

(Said every CEO email, everywhere.)
posted by valkane at 9:55 AM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

Looks like business is not so good at the new hotel

I walked by it last night and briefly considered stopping in to use the lobby restroom and shit on the floor or something, but that's not fair to the undocumented staff working there without maternity leave. Plus it looked totally empty in there, they'd definitely know it was me.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:55 AM on September 24, 2016 [19 favorites]

I went shopping at a discount outlet whatever and saw a pretty red dress, looked at the size, saw the Ivanka Trump label, and dropped it with a hiss. I think her brand might have a problem.
posted by angrycat at 10:00 AM on September 24, 2016 [41 favorites]

> More or less, yes. Hillary had precisely one requirement. A single device she could carry around with her that was able to check her personal and her work email at the same time. The State Department IT couldn't give her that and it isn't an unreasonable requirement.

It may not sound unreasonable to you, but plenty of people carry two phones around. One for work and their personal phone. Facebook and Apple employees among them, and I have a feeling Facebook and Apple are able to hire quality IT folk. Apple's internal IT department, especially, might know a thing or two about iPhones.

Moreover it's been my experience as an employee who isn't a board member, that dictating terms to the IT department doesn't go well for me. Still, the raging asshole we know Trump is, who is used to getting his way, is definitely a raging asshole to the IT help desk if they won't do what he asks. (Are we even sure he pays them?)

*Sigh* But sure, lets talk about emails yet again. Remember when the White House lost 22. Million. Emails! All in an effort to avoid the FOIA *and* the Presidential Records Act so they couldn't be held accountable. A ton of people resigned and we impeached President Bush over it?

Wait that last part didn't happen, so maybe the whole emails thing is hogwash.

Or how about that time that a government employee pulled back resources, ignored security briefings and just stood by and let a terrorist attack happen, leading to rumors that they were complicit in killing Americans that lost their lives that day.

Totally fired, and never ever held another government job, right? No, wait, we elected President Bush a second time after that, even after Americans died on his watch.
posted by fragmede at 10:01 AM on September 24, 2016 [10 favorites]

NYT: A Week of Whoppers From Donald Trump

a closer examination, over the course of a week, revealed an unmistakable pattern: Virtually all of Mr. Trump’s falsehoods directly bolstered a powerful and self-aggrandizing narrative depicting him as a heroic savior for a nation menaced from every direction. Mike Murphy, a Republican strategist, described the practice as creating “an unreality bubble that he surrounds himself with.”

The New York Times closely tracked Mr. Trump’s public statements from Sept. 15-21, and assembled a list of his 31 biggest whoppers, many of them uttered repeatedly. This total excludes dozens more: Untruths that appeared to be mere hyperbole or humor, or delivered purely for effect, or what could generously be called rounding errors. Mr. Trump’s campaign, which dismissed this compilation as “silly,” offered responses on every point, but in none of the following instances did the responses support his assertions.

They go on to list all 31 lies categorizing them as:

Tall Tales About Himself
Unfounded Claims About Critics and the News Media
Inaccurate Claims About Clinton
Stump Speech Falsehoods
Esoteric Embellishments
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:04 AM on September 24, 2016 [20 favorites]

I went shopping at a discount outlet whatever and saw a pretty red dress, looked at the size, saw the Ivanka Trump label, and dropped it with a hiss. I think her brand might have a problem.

Certainly among the coveted Snake People demographic.
posted by indubitable at 10:12 AM on September 24, 2016 [13 favorites]

Looks like business is not so good at the new hotel

The restaurant is BLT Prime by David Burke, a second choice because the Washington restaurateur José Andrés backed out of his agreement to open a Spanish-Japanese eatery after Mr. Trump’s immigrant-bashing campaign kickoff speech. At lunchtime on a recent weekday, 17 people were eating in a space that seats 120. Tom Sietsema, The Washington Post’s restaurant critic, titled his review “Gilded Touches on Yet Another Steakhouse.”...

Drinking my iced tea, I gazed over the railing at the lobby, then looked again: There was Ivanka, leading an entourage of eager people with clipboards and notebooks.

Ms. Trump swept up the steps into the restaurant. Half the diners stood up. They weren’t customers, somebody in the entourage said, but employees.

Washington DC's very own Potemkin Restaurant!
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:12 AM on September 24, 2016 [24 favorites]

Eh. I don't think it's obligatory for Facebook employees to carry two phones if they want access to both work and personal stuff as I know people who work there who don't carry two phones but have clearly had access to both. What may be happening is those employees don't want to mingle work and personal. Amazon at least when I was there required they be able to remote wipe your device (in case it was lost). You were supposed to report it lost immediately which meant immediate wipe. Some folks might not want that for their personal phone.
posted by R343L at 10:13 AM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

Re: the 'J'ennifer Flowers Trump tweet (now deleted and spelling corrected and reposted.)

You are struggling with the woman vote & thinking about humiliating first female nominee of major party by bringing husband's ex-mistress
posted by chris24 at 10:13 AM on September 24, 2016 [21 favorites]

In other words, it really isn't an absurd requirement to be able to access personal and (non-classified) work accounts on a single device.
posted by R343L at 10:14 AM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

So I am not really sure what your beef is.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:52 AM on September 24

I... dropped it with a hiss.
posted by angrycat at 12:00 PM on September 24

Eponysterical posts never get old for me.
posted by carmicha at 10:22 AM on September 24, 2016 [34 favorites]

Donald Trump: "I only cheated on wives one and two!" (Fake, but true)
posted by valkane at 10:28 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh, yeah ? Well, how would you.like to buy a year's supply of food, pal ?
posted by y2karl at 10:28 AM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

whether the marketability of the Trump brand could survive the campaign undamaged

This gives me a moment of glee amidst all the anxiety.

Because there are three things Trump loves: money, power, and attention.

And in his crazed lunge for power and attention, he doesn't seem to realize that he's seriously jeopardizing the money. Half the country will now avoid his products and properties like the plague. Companies will no longer partner with him. TV networks will be loath to hire him.

He won't end up destitute – but it may become difficult to keep up the charade of being a billionaire.

Two years from now, I want this man to rue the day he sought the Presidency. I want him to be impoverished, snubbed and reviled (when he is not simply ignored or forgotten), and helpless to do anything about it. I want the things he cherishes most – money, power, and attention – to be taken away from him, leaving him with no balm for his yawning void of a soul.

I want him to be confronted, every hour of every day, with the inescapable fact that he is a loser; that no one respects him or cares what he thinks; that he is a hollow, horrid shell of a human being, with death fast approaching, destined to be remembered as a failure on every level that matters.

Is that too much to ask?

44 days left. ugghh
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:30 AM on September 24, 2016 [54 favorites]

Washington DC's very own Potemkin Restaurant!

Come see the empty ground floor retail of Chicago's Trump Tower. They can't even Potemkin!
posted by srboisvert at 10:32 AM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

Apparently Trump put out the misspelled Gennifer tweet and the campaign deleted it and corrected the spelling of her name in a repost. It didn't occur to the campaign that the best idea would be to stop at the deletion without the correction? And take his phone until Ivanka returns?
posted by Silverstone at 10:38 AM on September 24, 2016 [9 favorites]

He won't end up destitute – but it may become difficult to keep up the charade of being a billionaire.

He's gonna be dead soon. This is the 1% version of a mid-life crises. I have no idea if this man has ever experienced romantic love. But I kinda doubt it. What we are seeing with Donald is some shakesspearian shit that could be broadcast to trailerparks across the nation. And it is. And it works. But it's his swan song. If America votes this game show host in, it's doom for everyone. But I'd like to believe that even though 40% of america watches Duck dynasty, 60% don't. And that's how we got president obama.
posted by valkane at 10:40 AM on September 24, 2016 [20 favorites]

Trump's got domination/submission dynamics build way too deep into him to comprehend that most people don't think "Oh yeah, well your husband cheated on you!" is an incredible own. He expected the whole classroom to applaud that tweet.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:42 AM on September 24, 2016 [8 favorites]

Yep, highest approval ratings she's had was post-Monica.
posted by chris24 at 10:45 AM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

I carry two phones, but in real life, I only answer one of them.
This is true for everyone else I know who carries two phones, and for all of us, it tends to be the "private" phone we answer. It's not that our "private" phone is actually private. It's that our "private" phone number is not available to the general public. Everyone I work with has access to the "private" number. All calls to the official number are redirected to relevant staff.
I sometimes call out from the official number, and I access mail from my official phone. But honestly, most of the time, its at the bottom of my bag, and shut off. The thing is that even when you are a lowly employee at a tiny university, your mail and your callers will be a crap-load of shit. You'll have stalkers, tabloid journos, angry parents and interest groups calling you and mailing you all the time. I can't even imagine how this is magnified when you are the US Secretary of State. But among the mails there are important stuff you need to deal with ASAP. You need to keep that folder clean and clear.
I've asked the exact same question Hillary did: could I please have mail sent to my private phone. It was denied, but I am not Secretary of State. At government level, the IT guys should be delivering the service as needed by the government.
posted by mumimor at 10:46 AM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

broadcast to trailerparks ... Duck Dynasty

I know you don't mean badly, but: (1) if you wouldn't generalize about poor black folks in the "inner city", then maybe similar generalizations shouldn't be made about poor white folks in "trailer parks"; and (2) it is not accurate to say that Trump's base is made up of poor whites. (On average, they actually skew wealthier than Clinton supporters.) Support for Trump is predicted by many telling things – being white, living in rural areas, being less educated, attending church more regularly, working in pre-information-economy industries, living in regions with little racial and ethnic diversity – but not by poverty.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:53 AM on September 24, 2016 [33 favorites]

In fact: since Trump supporters tend to have higher incomes, and to live in more rural areas (where the costs of living and property are much lower) – doesn't that mean that their relative wealth is even greater? An income that will barely get you an apartment in some cities can buy a two-story house and a few acres of land in more rural places.

Class is definitely a big part of this election – if only because so much of this election is about race, and you can't talk about one without the other – but we're not talking about strictly income class. It's often been noted that class in America is...complicated, and wealth is only part of it. It's also tied up with identity – racial, regional, professional, religious.

The "white working class" has emerged as a shorthand for pointing to the locus of Trump's support – but the accuracy of that characterization hinges entirely on how you understand the term "working class". If you define it solely in terms of income, then it's inaccurate. But if you understand "working class" to be a cultural category – one which encompasses a range of income levels, including wealthier folks and poorer folks – then I think it's closer to the mark.

The media has not been great about making the distinction – I've seen countless articles about Trump, headed by photos of blue-collar laborers and Appalachian hillbillies. Those supporters certainly exist – but the media has focused on them, and ignored the rest of Trump's base, in a way that has skewed the overall image. I honestly wonder why. Perhaps because it's a narrative that has intuitive appeal and plausibility to readers (even if it's inaccurate), and thus it's an easier sell?

I've been taken in by it myself, from time to time.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 11:19 AM on September 24, 2016 [16 favorites]

Thanks, rtha, for linking to the Kaiser Family Foundation's survey of white working class voters (and non-voters), and thanks to your organization for doing it. It's rare that I see a survey that detailed about a group I belong to.

They recognized that some of us are Democrats and some of us are atheists. Whee, actual empirical evidence that I exist! Usually, when I say that on the web, I'm told I'm lying. When I talk about my political views with upper-middle-class Democrats in person, they usually believe I actually hold the views I do, but think I'm some kind of total anomaly, and refuse to believe I know any anybody from my own social class that holds similar views.

I wish they had included more black and hispanic working-class people in their survey. They're dropped from the analyses of some responses because the sample size is too small, so we just end up with comparisons of how college educated and non-college educate who answered X to one question answered another question. But to include this kind of analysis at all, and recognize that working class people are ethnically diverse, is pretty rare. When they do this kind of comparison, it brings out ways class and ethnicity intersect (e.g. in rates of home ownership, unemployment and underemployment, optimism about the future).

You rarely get a survey that's broken down this way.
posted by nangar at 11:20 AM on September 24, 2016 [8 favorites]

My post-election Trump fantasies: (1) Hollywood Squares comes back just so The Donald could sit in the top row between Carrot Top and Gallagher (2) God displays her displeasure with the candidate by causing #eclipse2017 to skip the few states that went red.
posted by DanSachs at 11:28 AM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

... or a guest-starring slot on the Love Boat works too.
posted by DanSachs at 11:35 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Donald Trump’s campaign is denying any connection to a man that it previously named as a foreign policy adviser, who is reportedly being investigated for alleged ties to the Kremlin.

. . . Page could not be reached for comment."
posted by petebest at 11:45 AM on September 24, 2016 [12 favorites]

all right why the fuck are her fucking numbers going down on fucking 538.
and i've used up all my fucks for the day
posted by angrycat at 11:46 AM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

> and i've used up all my fucks for the day

*backs up truck*

I've been saving up for just such an occasion. Help yourself.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:48 AM on September 24, 2016 [18 favorites]

To Trump, there is no qualitative difference between being elected president and being on The Love Boat. I wish him obscurity.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:49 AM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

I appreciate that you know what i meant, potato planet. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt. And as a kentucky-born redneck, know that I truly meant no disparage to all the fine southern folk who are not duck dynasty adherents. Or Trumpists.
posted by valkane at 11:51 AM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

Obsessing over 538 is kind of a mugs game, but it looks like there's a big dip for the "bad weekend" and now her numbers are stable or recovering? Remember that's polls have a lag.
posted by Artw at 11:52 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Princeton site numbers improved from yesterday (Clinton from 289 to 294 at the top) but I try not to check it more than once a day. Nerves.
posted by kingless at 11:53 AM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hanley said Clinton had no idea what her own email password was, and had to rely on aides.

I had the fun experience yesterday of being in the middle of demonstrating an application in front of a bunch of clients and realizing that I had no fricking clue what the password was for my demo account because it's been saved by my browser at my workstation. I had to reset it in front of god and everyone.

Also let me tell you about the massive number of my clients (almost all of them PhDs) who also do not remember their SSO passwords when away from their own computers. We have to change them every 3 months and yes, I too have a post it stuck to my monitor with a hint on it as to my current password. My job title has the word technologist in it. Womp womp.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:02 PM on September 24, 2016 [36 favorites]

Ha, Soren, I've had that same experience. I played it off as a chance to demo how losing a password worked,with a wink and a nod.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 12:08 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

Metafilter: My job title has the word technologist in it. Womp womp.
posted by valkane at 12:11 PM on September 24, 2016 [15 favorites]

538s model is exceedingly swingy and magnifies even slight fluctuations in the polling. That's great for eyeballs but not super honest.

In contrast Sam Wang's model is very slow to show movement but has had an extreme degree of reliability. But let's be honest telling people that the race is essentially static doesn't draw a ton of eyeballs to your site other than as fact checking against the sky is falling narrative.
posted by vuron at 12:14 PM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

Trump being anything like viable means the sky's already falling, we're just worried about how hard it's going to hit and where.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:17 PM on September 24, 2016 [10 favorites]

polls are shit. some random asshole calls me on the phone (and i actually answer it because i've done some quick mental calculus of shit i care about and decide the call may be important) and if i don't immediately hang up and add the number to the blocklist i'm 98% sure to feed the caller total bullshit. i am the trump of respondents.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 12:21 PM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

a fair number of privileged people have simply forgotten both how society eradicated a bunch of their problems, and what those problems were like in real terms. They don't understand the mechanisms or costs associated with the success they enjoy - clean water, reliable power grids, stable legal system, etc. - and they also don't have any idea how bad things can get for them personally if things in this country go truly sideways.

I bring this up all the time in terms of cutting public benefits and welfare. Like, ok, let's imagine you truly don't care about the suffering of other people. But how would you feel if every time you left the house you had to see children in the street starving? Had to deal with swarms of panhandlers? Imagine all the people in public housing just living on the streets, dying in the streets, imagine the disease that would run rampant. Imagine that your nice life was constantly under barrage with all this ugliness. Imagine having to be a lot more concerned about being assaulted and robbed just because you left the house and are clean looking and have nice stuff. I mean, all that would kinda suck, right?
posted by threeturtles at 12:23 PM on September 24, 2016 [15 favorites]

soren_lorenson: Womp womp.

Every time someone says that I think of Strongbad. [SLYT]
posted by wenestvedt at 12:24 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump's viable because apparently around 60% white people are racist/sexist/homophobic/etc or are fine with those qualities in a President.

Trump is the logical outcome of basically playing on the fears of white voters for the last 40+ years, perhaps it's time for some self-examination on why that's been so successful.
posted by vuron at 12:24 PM on September 24, 2016 [11 favorites]

Google really needs to add "obvious party affiliation" to its news serving algorithm because just because I'm interested in the election does not mean I'm interested in every two-bit alt-right blog's hot takes. The more I tell Google I don't want any more news from a particular source, the more it dredges similar ones up from the bowels of the internet and puts them in front of my eyeballs. Please stahp.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:25 PM on September 24, 2016 [9 favorites]

Kirk Douglas is 100 years old?

Sobering to think he was 16 when Hitler began his rise to power. We're quickly running out of people that can bear witness to those times.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:25 PM on September 24, 2016 [15 favorites]

> Trump is the logical outcome of basically playing on the fears of white voters for the last 40+ years, perhaps it's time for some self-examination on why that's been so successful.


As I've said before, Trump is what happens that, after years of conditioning your electorate to listen for dogwhistles, some guy shows up with a bullhorn.
posted by mrzarquon at 12:34 PM on September 24, 2016 [8 favorites]

Juice Rap News Coverage
posted by jeffburdges at 12:34 PM on September 24, 2016

My Vote

Roger Angell (the New Yorker baseball reporter) explains why he plans to vote for Clinton.
posted by kingless at 12:37 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

*actual dialogue in the angrycat household*
angrycat: "I don't think I can be happy as long as 538 puts DJT's chances of winning above 40%"
SO: "You may be worrying about the election too much"
angrycat: "I hope you remember saying that when we're huddled around a campfire eating beans out of a can"
SO: ". . ."
angrycat: "I guess I see your point."
posted by angrycat at 12:40 PM on September 24, 2016 [27 favorites]

Mchelly: A message from Grandma and Grandpa

That was fantastic. A good blend of serious as f**k ("we've seen this before in Germany") and funny ("you can tell that I'm a ghost and not a Trump supporter, right?").
posted by filthy light thief at 12:41 PM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

Wait.
He's really bringing the mistress?
Is this really happening?
I miss booze already.
posted by angrycat at 12:49 PM on September 24, 2016 [9 favorites]

Andrew from Buzzfeed confirms Gennifer Flowers will be at the debate.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:51 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

What a shitshow.
posted by PenDevil at 12:52 PM on September 24, 2016 [19 favorites]

@BuzzFeedAndrew: Wow! Gennifer Flowers has agreed to join Trump for the debate. Her assistant tells me.
posted by chris24 at 12:52 PM on September 24, 2016

Okay, let's see if we can get both of Trump's ex-wives and a few mistresses to attend. (Equating Flowers to Mark Cuban is one the top 10 list of stupidest things Duh Donald has tweeted)
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:54 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

I hope Trump makes mention of people he's got in the crowd, so Hillary can mention that her supporter, actual billionaire Mark Cuban is there too.
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:56 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

She's already baiting him--successfully.

I think I just went from "vaguely anxious" to "blood thirsty"
posted by schadenfrau at 12:56 PM on September 24, 2016 [23 favorites]

@williamjordann: CNN/Gallup: debate expectations gaps

16: HRC +10
12: BHO +25
08: BHO +25
04: Bush +13
00: Gore +8
96: WJC +52
92: WJC +8
84: RWR: +39

Every person with higher expectations won the popular vote.
posted by chris24 at 12:59 PM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

I want her to say "You say you're wealthy Mr Trump. Well, I've met a few billionaires and let me tell you, you're no billionaire."
Then I want his head to (figuratively) explode like the pumpkin it is.
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:00 PM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

steady-state strawberry, just a warning that being on a plane for the entirety of the debate doesn't mean you can escape. In fact, it might mean that 70% of the passengers will be watching the debate on the personal entertainment screens in the seat backs and you will be squirming uncomfortably trying to watch your episode of No Reservations while ignoring the tiny, ever-multiplying mug of Donald Trump in your peripheral vision.
posted by spamandkimchi at 1:01 PM on September 24, 2016 [7 favorites]

...and the pig enjoys it.
posted by cashman at 1:08 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

Every time. It happens every time. A part of me thinks he can't possibly stoop lower, and then he does.
posted by bardophile at 1:18 PM on September 24, 2016 [19 favorites]

@joshtpm: The suburban married white women who are the tipping point demo in this campaign are sure to warm to shaming woman w her husbands affairs.

@ZeddRebel: Only a dyed-in-the-wool misogynist would think rubbing husband's infidelity in the face of the first woman nominee would be a plus for him.

@ddale8: A woman will never be happier to see her husband's former mistress.

@HeerJeet: @joshtpm I don't know if even Trump's Razor is powerful enough to explain this idiocy.
posted by chris24 at 1:18 PM on September 24, 2016 [40 favorites]

20 years later, do the Clintons have to keep pretending they didn't have an arrangement?
posted by roll truck roll at 1:21 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

20 years later, do the Clintons have to keep pretending they didn't have an arrangement?

Frankly, no one should care but them.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:25 PM on September 24, 2016 [67 favorites]

maybe because if true a) relevance? and b) it buys into the narrative of the ineffable reasons why HRC is untrustworthy and c) voters couldn't reasonably process such a revelation and d) relevance and e) do male candidates deal with such nonsense?
posted by angrycat at 1:26 PM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

do male candidates deal with such nonsense?

Exactly. My initial reaction was that the Clinton campaign could invite Trump's mistresses as well, but that wouldn't have nearly the impact, and his supporters might actually revel in it. This double standard is sick.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:28 PM on September 24, 2016 [12 favorites]

@ditzkoff: “I'll prove Mark Cuban doesn’t set off my temper by impulsively inviting a guest who makes me look icky and my rival sympathetic” #checkmate
posted by chris24 at 1:36 PM on September 24, 2016 [34 favorites]

I think the idea is probably to rattle Clinton and throw her off her game, which isn't going to work, because if there's one thing that being Hillary Clinton for the past 25 years would teach a person, it's how not to be rattled and thrown off your game. But it occurs to me that the real goal is to allow him to claim that Hillary has been rattled and thrown off her game, which the media will then pick up on and run as the story. And that might actually work.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:37 PM on September 24, 2016 [9 favorites]

@gennflowers: Hi Donald. You know I'm in your corner and will definitely be at the debate!...💋
posted by chris24 at 1:38 PM on September 24, 2016

Having an arrangement just "isn't done," therefore they would never talk about it if they had one. Which is fine, it's none of our business. But it's just one of those things that Presidents who are serious and not Orange Demagogues have to be--heteronormatively married, a somewhat serious member of a church, and the only acceptable drug history is alcohol and some mj.
posted by xyzzy at 1:38 PM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

I am pretty sure Hillary knew this stuff would resurface if she ran. She's probably wondering why it took them so long, like its the only major card they had to play and wanted to save it until late in the game. Hillary doesn't care, she's about to become the president. Let an ex-mistress witness her badassness. Millions of women have had to make the decisions Hillary did when faced with rocky patches in their marriages - we see it in Ask all the time. If anything, this humanizes her.
posted by erisfree at 1:38 PM on September 24, 2016 [28 favorites]

gross
posted by tonycpsu at 1:39 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think that all the Clinton campaign has to say is that this is a presidential debate, and reality-show antics don't have any place there. She's not going to dignify this stunt with a response, and she hopes they can discuss substantive issues, as befits the seriousness of the office for which they're running.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:43 PM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

Trump’s week reveals bleak view, dubious statements in ‘alternative universe’:

Donald Trump’s week began in the wake of explosions in New Jersey and New York. It ended in the aftermath of shootings and riots. For a candidate whose strategy relies on painting a dystopian view of the nation — often based on inaccurate and questionable claims — the tragedies yielded a trove of political opportunities.
...
An examination by The Washington Post of one week of Trump’s speeches, tweets and interviews show a candidate who not only continues to rely heavily on thinly sourced or entirely unsubstantiated claims but also uses them to paint a strikingly bleak portrait of an impoverished America, overrun by illegal immigrants, criminals and terrorists — all designed to set up his theme that he is specially suited to “make America great again.”

posted by kirkaracha at 1:43 PM on September 24, 2016

If they wanted to rattle her, why announce it two days before the debate?

I'd totes like to be proven wrong, but maybe they're trying to put her in an impossible situation, a la: if she reacts without emotion, she's a cold whatever. If she reacts with emotion, she's hysterical.

But I'm sure I'm overthinking things here and Trump is just lashing out like a petulant baby man child who foresees an imminent future of his being used as a rag with which HRC mops the floor at the debate.
posted by angrycat at 1:45 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Gennifer's presence will appeal to the misogynistic base, lessening the need for Trump to appeal to them verbally. Then he can focus on not saying anything so bombastic that the media is forced to call him out on it.
posted by polyhedron at 1:46 PM on September 24, 2016

If they wanted to rattle her, why announce it two days before the debate?

48 hours of publicity.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:46 PM on September 24, 2016 [9 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump: If dopey Mark Cuban of failed Benefactor fame wants to sit in the front row, perhaps I will put Gennifer Flowers right alongside of him!

@kirkaracha: @realDonaldTrump Next to Ivana (wife #1), Marla (mistress/wife #2), Melania (mistress/wife #3) & whoever you're cheating on her with.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:47 PM on September 24, 2016 [10 favorites]

I'm sure his fundamentalist Christian base are suitable horrified.
posted by PenDevil at 1:48 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

Gennifer's presence will appeal to the misogynistic base, lessening the need for Trump to appeal to them verbally. Then he can focus on not saying anything so bombastic that the media is forced to call him out on it.

There are two problems with that. First, when he's not being bombastic he's boring, which will not be good for him. And second, he really, really needs to avoid any substantive discussion of policy, because he will make mistakes, and the mistakes will be the story. I think he's going to have to make it personal and bring the full Trump show, in all its unhinged glory, or else it ends up veering off in directions that don't help him.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:50 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm sure his fundamentalist Christian base are suitable horrified.

Really? I'd think they'd see it as throwing her sin in her face.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:50 PM on September 24, 2016

Really? I'd think they'd see it as throwing her sin in her face.

What sin? Did she have an affair with Gennifer Flowers?
posted by PenDevil at 1:53 PM on September 24, 2016 [25 favorites]

Mod note: @realDonaldTrump: She thinks she can bait me with a Tweet! I'll show her! fake
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 1:53 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

I really think reading anymore into this than Trump got pissed about the Cuban thing and lashed out in the moment as the misogynistic idiot he is is giving him too much credit.
posted by chris24 at 1:57 PM on September 24, 2016 [32 favorites]

Gennifer Flowers is a person with agency and she, too, bears responsibility here. Granted, she has always been a performer (she was a lounge singer in Little Rock) and has taken other opportunities to capitalize on her notoriety--in fairness, it's probably difficult for her to earn a living any other way--but she's allowing herself to be used as a prop. I am having trouble imagining Monica Lewinsky, who has been very thoughtful about cyber notoriety and bullying, agreeing to such a scheme even if she supports Trump (no idea if she has stated whether she plans to vote for Clinton or Trump).
posted by carmicha at 1:57 PM on September 24, 2016 [8 favorites]

I wouldn't be surprised if Trump keeps it together, and on script, for about thirty minutes during the debate.

And is it 90 minutes without a break? I can't imagine Trump staying cool for that long if he starts getting angry. He may walk off the stage.
posted by mrzarquon at 1:57 PM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm sure his fundamentalist Christian base are suitable horrified.

Really? I'd think they'd see it as throwing her sin in her face.

It's Rorschach. They'll see what they want to see. Christians who hate him, power to them, will hate it. Christians who like him will like it.

Gennifer's presence will appeal to the misogynistic base, lessening the need for Trump to appeal to them verbally. Then he can focus on not saying anything so bombastic that the media is forced to call him out on it.

Respectfully, and with an acknowledgement that I also catastrophize everything that's happening in this godawful election -- I think that's too clever by half. What does Trump's Razor say? The stupidest explanation is the likeliest. The stupidest explanation is that Trump thinks he's being super clever by bringing in someone to throw her off her game. This not being elementary school, it won't work.

But it occurs to me that the real goal is to allow him to claim that Hillary has been rattled and thrown off her game, which the media will then pick up on and run as the story. And that might actually work.

That might have worked if he'd sprung this at the last minute. But now the story will be over 48 hours old by the time the debate actually happens, and Flowers' presence won't be anything other than a footnote. (Unless he decides to make a big deal of it, which as other people have expressed I'm pretty sure would only help her case with the viewing public, even with those Vichy undecideds.)
posted by saturday_morning at 2:00 PM on September 24, 2016 [7 favorites]

I really think reading anymore into this than Trump got pissed about the Cuban thing and lashed out in the moment as the misogynistic idiot he is is giving him too much credit.

Yes, remember the Razor.
posted by kingless at 2:01 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

@mattyglesias: Cuban was invited just to see if it would provoke Trump into doing something crazy and stupid. And guess what? It worked.
posted by chris24 at 2:03 PM on September 24, 2016 [22 favorites]

Like Roger Angell, Kirk Douglas is pretty old. And he's anti-Trump, too.
posted by kingless at 2:07 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wouldn't be surprised if Trump keeps it together, and on script, for about thirty minutes during the debate.

The thing is, what's the script? I don't think he can handle a substantive policy question about anything where the answer isn't some variation on shoot them, bomb them, or build a wall. What does he say when they ask how the Federal government should respond to the threat of emerging viruses like Zika? If the moderators ask him normal debate questions, he will make a fool of himself. Even if he wears an earpiece, which it's rumored he will, he's not going to do well when he's trying to stick to script.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:10 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

In the 2007 ALCS, the Cleveland baseball team was beating Boston three games to one (best of seven). Pretty bad position for Boston to be in, to have to win three games straight. Didn't look good. Josh Beckett was starting for the Sox in game five. Cleveland flew in his ex-girlfriend to sing the National Anthem. When they did that, it became immediately obvious how nervous they were about having to win just one more game. Beckett destroyed them in game five, and the Sox won the next seven straight to win the ALCS and World Series. The Anthem thing was so dumb. Beckett was an unflabbale dude. He had some choice words about how little it meant to him after the game.

I can't remember a single time in her decades of public service that Clinton has been distracted by petty bullshit. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
posted by one_bean at 2:12 PM on September 24, 2016 [19 favorites]

I have recently decided to move to the woods, become an old crone witch and start casting spells on men that irritate or otherwise vex me, starting with one Cheeto Benito.
posted by Sophie1 at 2:17 PM on September 24, 2016 [44 favorites]

IMO boring is the best look for Trump at the debates. It just means people can point and say "see, he's serious." Remember the double-standard here. Trump wins the debates if he doesn't do anything so outrageous that the media is forced to focus on it. Hillary, conversely, loses if she makes the wrong facial expression or gets an itch in her throat.
posted by polyhedron at 2:17 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

Please, she's 68 and about to be Chelsea's second parent who's President of the United States, after being FLOTUS for 8, Senator, and Secretary of State for the first four years after GeeDubz incompetently set fire to half the planet. She's been around the world 1000 times, has stared down the haters, weathered the assaults, and could care less who the Circus Peanut invites.

Plus, Genny's going to do better under HRC policies, is viewed as less-than by Trump, and should the subject of her attendance come up you know she's got that Bruce Lee "bring it" hand ready.
posted by petebest at 2:18 PM on September 24, 2016 [12 favorites]

Is there a Kickstarter for said vexing? I would donate to send some bad mojo.
posted by chris24 at 2:18 PM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

IMO boring is the best look for Trump at the debates

Problem for Trump is, he's losing. So he needs a game change out of the debates. Hard to get that by being boring.
posted by saturday_morning at 2:24 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

> What does he say when they ask how the Federal government should respond to the threat of emerging viruses like Zika?

Oh oh oh I know this one!

Scientific American asked all the candidates:

How would you improve federal research and our public health system to better protect Americans from emerging diseases and other public health threats, such as antibiotic resistant superbugs?

And Donald Trump replied [emphasis mine]:

Donald Trump (R): The implication of the question is that one must provide more resources to research and public health enterprises to make sure we stay ahead of potential health risks. In a time of limited resources, one must ensure that the nation is getting the greatest bang for the buck. We cannot simply throw money at these institutions and assume that the nation will be well served. What we ought to focus on is assessing where we need to be as a nation and then applying resources to those areas where we need the most work. Our efforts to support research and public health initiatives will have to be balanced with other demands for scarce resources. Working with Congress—the people’s representatives—my administration will work to establish national priorities and then we will work to make sure that adequate resources are assigned to achieve our goals.

(The full set of science policy questions and candidate's answers is really striking. Trump's answers are incredibly short -- much shorter than Clinton's, Stein's, or Johnson's -- and unsurprisingly devoid of thought.)
posted by Westringia F. at 2:29 PM on September 24, 2016 [11 favorites]

"Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" and "War On Women" are taking on a Chauvinist caricature in this election. Air Farce One.
posted by effluvia at 2:30 PM on September 24, 2016

So we can't afford to throw money at public health institutions to combat serious threats to life, but by all means let's dump as much funding as we can imagine in the direction of the military and its contractors without any regard for priorities.
posted by zachlipton at 2:35 PM on September 24, 2016 [8 favorites]

I think that all the Clinton campaign has to say is that this is a presidential debate, and reality-show antics don't have any place there. She's not going to dignify this stunt with a response, and she hopes they can discuss substantive issues, as befits the seriousness of the office for which they're running.

As opposed to seating Mark Cuban in front of Trump just to get a jealous rise out of him, that's definitely not a reality TV stunt. *eyeroll*
posted by indubitable at 2:35 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

My first husband had a long affair, which I did not know about. Unlike our Hillary, I did dtmf, and was very very angry, publicly. It's been about as long for me, as it has been for Hillary, and I'm not angry anymore. If someone were to plop Ex and Mistress in the front row of something I were doing, it wouldn't faze me a bit.

I'll bet money Hillary heard about Trumps latest, rolled her eyes, raised an eyebrow at abashed Bill, and went back to drilling for the debate.

This means nothing. Sturm und drang.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 2:37 PM on September 24, 2016 [47 favorites]

The Josh Marshall article saturday_morning linked above is a pretty good read on the debate.

A Few Thoughts on the Debate

"...Trump is extremely ignorant when it comes to public policy. George W. Bush had a pretty limited handle on public policy issues too. But either he or his campaign staff (likely both) had some awareness of this fact and kept his answers general and brief. Trump has no such self-awareness and generally just makes things up on the fly. That's seldom gone over well in non-Fox contexts - not just because he's ignorant but because it's usually pretty obvious he's just making things up.

I do think it's possible he'll be goaded into saying something offensive or unhinged. For instance, I think it would be highly advisable for Clinton to confront Trump on birtherism - to press the point that he needs to provide some explanation and apology for why he spread this lie for six years. He's shown very little indication that he has a good answer to that question. Questions like that, shaming questions, tend to set him off.

Rather than a tirade, the much greater danger for Trump is just the need to explain his policies in anything more than 5 or ten second snippets. This laibility was very clear in the National Security Forum..."
posted by chris24 at 2:41 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Y'know that worry about running into your ex -- or the person your ex dumped you for -- and the fear that he/she will be more successful now, or look better than you somehow, or whatever? I have to imagine a similar thing happens when you run into your spouse's former mistress (or mister?).

Trump has to be thinking that's the sort of reaction that Clinton will have, and will therefore throw her off. Only here's the thing: Gennifer Flowers has only one claim to fame, and that's being the "other woman." Hillary Clinton is the first woman running as a major party candidate for president and still has the best shot at winning.

I'm honestly not sure how this is supposed to bother her at all, except in the heads of people who don't have any fucking sense of maturity at all.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:42 PM on September 24, 2016 [13 favorites]

As opposed to seating Mark Cuban in front of Trump just to get a jealous rise out of him, that's definitely not a reality TV stunt. *eyeroll*

Not sure I understand. Is the Clinton campaign only allowed to invite people who have never taken a dig at Trump, or is Mark Cuban someone who is totally irrelevant and uninvolved in the campaign who is only being invited because of his alleged affair with Melania?
posted by snofoam at 2:45 PM on September 24, 2016 [16 favorites]

So we can't afford to throw money at public health institutions to combat serious threats to life, but by all means let's dump as much funding as we can imagine in the direction of the military and its contractors without any regard for priorities.

We're about to kick over half a million people off SNAP this year as well.
posted by Talez at 2:45 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

As opposed to seating Mark Cuban in front of Trump just to get a jealous rise out of him, that's definitely not a reality TV stunt. *eyeroll*
Cuban requested the front-row seat and then HE tweeted about it. (Of course, HE's a Reality TV character) We don't know who else she will have on her side. Of course, Trump's TV experience was usually prepped, staged ("Just run at Vince McMahon and he'll fall down") and edited to be 'fixed in post'.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:47 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah, while Cuban no doubt meant to vex Trump, there's also no doubt he's been a surrogate and campaigner for her. There's actually a rationale for him there besides mind games. Or misogyny.
posted by chris24 at 2:47 PM on September 24, 2016 [15 favorites]

Even if he wears an earpiece, which it's rumored he will

Wait what?
posted by spitbull at 2:49 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

The challenge for Trump is twofold. First, it's difficult to really shake things up with what is by definition a low energy strategy. Second, Trump's inability to answer basic questions about his policy proposals will almost certainly bring out his aggressive and erratic side. At the end of the day it is quite difficult to be other than the people we are. Absent a teleprompter, Trump has shown no ability in eighteen months to be anybody but himself in public. These basic realities are key to bear in mind.

Low-key and "Presidential"? Or fired up and loose-cannony?

Hmmmmm . . . hmmmmmmmmm . . .

Low-key Trump debate press, "Surprisingly considered", "boring", "didn't spout the usual", and goes the way of his RNC acceptance speech. (Yawn. Next!)

Fired up Trump press, "forcefully repeated", "remained {racist}", "law & order". More crazypants hate.

Option 3: Punt. Fashion some Conwayesque Trump-Lite pivot "surprise" garbage and expect him to juggle it for 45 minutes. Base hates it, moderates are confused, Trump backpedals for a week.

Option 4: The Trumpronicity: a statement so outside all norms that the immediate deafening silence eats his campaign and most of the GOP whole. The c- or n- words, spitting on the crowd, crying in sweaty, red-faced sobs for daddy. He's unhinged, possibly ill, and certainly a fraud. Perhaps a reckoning is due at the first debate . . .
posted by petebest at 2:49 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

And is it 90 minutes without a break? I can't imagine Trump staying cool for that long if he starts getting angry. He may walk off the stage.
posted by mrzarquon at 4:57 PM on September 24

Yes, the debate is 90 minutes with no commercial interruptions. Trump will have to speak for at least half of that time without a script, without repeating himself, and without reading a fucking poem about a snake. He doesn't have it in him. Remember one of his prominent characteristics that we know about is his inability to concentrate for more than 10 minutes at a time.

So what will he do? Try to dominate the stage, be bombastic, entertain with his carny personality. The thing is people watch these debates to decide who they want to choose for the Presidency, They want likability, knowledge, and confidence. He has confidence but he is sorely lacking in knowledge. It remains to be seen if he will be likable. The way this is set-up with just the two people on stage is not going to work for him. It will show off his many shortcomings, he won't be able to hide or catch a break, and I believe he might even be too subdued to be entertaining.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:53 PM on September 24, 2016 [7 favorites]

I think it's a real mistake to chalk up everything Trump does to an incompetent, irrational nature. He's media savvy and knows that how Clinton feels matters less than how she is perceived. Cuban and Flowers represent a specific message being sent to the candidates' bases. He's playing for America's id, and doing far better for it than most of us imagined possible.

Right now, being boring and uncontroversial feels as unexpected as anything. We all want to see outrageous Trump shooting his mouth off and throwing the election. I really, really wouldn't bet on that. No one is going to come away from a boring Trump debate and think Trump is actually boring.

I do hope I'm wrong. If I'm not, I hope the Clinton campaign has better ideas for countering it than I do.
posted by polyhedron at 2:55 PM on September 24, 2016

My expectations of Trump in the debates are split.

Point: I kind of expect he'll be prepared enough and convinced to at least be serious, and while he'll have basically no facts or figures to deal with and he'll peddle lots of lies. He'll have a couple zingers ready that his advisers have drilled into him. It'll be the usual debate effect of people coming away in support of whoever they supported to begin with, only with the added effect of a media shocked that Trump wasn't crazypants -- which means the media will basically claim Trump won because of low expectations.

Counterpoint: He's a classic bully and he did well in the GOP debates because it was a weak field nobody really wanted to take him on. Nobody wanted to alienate his supporters. He blustered all he wanted basically unchecked, except when he ran away from Megyn Kelly. Also look at his trip to Mexico: once face to face with another world leader, he muted his bluster and mumbled and didn't talk any shit until he was safely on the other side of the border. Given that, I half expect once he's up against Clinton and she's not ready to take his shit, he'll buckle.

Except this whole fucking year is bonkers and I kinda don't plan to watch the debates live because I already know which of them I support and which one is a fascist cheeto who should be swallowed up by a fiery chasm in the Earth.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:56 PM on September 24, 2016 [9 favorites]

Sopan Deb: A source close to Evan McMullin says that he told Cruz today in Texas that he's sorry that Cruz isn't in the fight anymore.

A source close to Evan McMullin, you guys!
posted by saturday_morning at 2:58 PM on September 24, 2016 [15 favorites]

He's playing for America's id, and doing far better for it than most of us imagined possible.

He's playing for white America's id. That's not enough anymore. And he's underperforming Romney by over 5 points. So he's not even that good at that.
posted by chris24 at 2:59 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

We're about to kick over half a million people off SNAP this year as well.
And most of the congresscritters who voted to do so are going to be re-elected easily. Trump isn't our only threat (just the one capable of the most damage).
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:05 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think there's a small but loud group of people who love Donald Trump, but a much larger group of people who really don't like him but either don't know how not to vote Republican or have been repeating for 25 years that Hillary Clinton is the devil. And those two groups together don't make a majority.

So let's not overestimate the man's "accomplishments" just yet.
posted by argybarg at 3:06 PM on September 24, 2016 [9 favorites]

A source close to Evan McMullin, you guys!

They mean like physically close, right? Like a dude who ran into him on the street?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:06 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

That implies that someone running into Evan McMullin on the street would recognize him.
posted by zachlipton at 3:09 PM on September 24, 2016 [9 favorites]

I just ordered yard signs for Hillary. And donated again.

I decided to only order the signs, separately, so make sure its *just the signs* that could be shipped. Lets see if they arrive before Nov.

(In Oregon we get our ballots 2-3 weeks before election day, so really not useful to have yard signs out Nov 7th)
posted by mrzarquon at 3:10 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

I am so hoping that Hillary catches Donald doing his "not listening, thinking of something else" act, and turns to him and says, "Donald, are you bored? Because you don't need to be here. We can cover this without you."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:15 PM on September 24, 2016 [10 favorites]

> They mean like physically close, right? Like a dude who ran into him on the street?

Someone overheard him on his phone at Starbucks. Sorry, I mean "campaign headquarters"
posted by mrzarquon at 3:15 PM on September 24, 2016 [7 favorites]

Remember Brexit. I am cautiously optimistic but not at all convinced we aren't headed down the path of xenophobia. I do live in a conservative echo-chamber, it's possible the pulse I'm reading is all wrong. But I hope the campaign is approaching the situation as if the polls were inverted and overcomes the double standard applied to the candidates in the media.
posted by polyhedron at 3:17 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

Remomber Trump making faces when getting a question he didn't like in the CNN debate in September? I'm betting we see something similar at least once.
posted by chris24 at 3:19 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've noticed a general lack of Hillary signs in Portland - and yard signs in general. I don't know if thats because of how hard they are to get a hold of, or the begrudging Bernie fans here, or what. People have been supportive when I'm in my official Portland for Hillary attire (green Oregonians for Hillary tshirt, Hillary Hoodie).

It's like it is still a secret to be a Hillary fan in this town.
posted by mrzarquon at 3:20 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Remember Brexit.

The UK is 88% white. The 2016 electorate will be 67% white. Yes, we'd be fucked if only white people were voting, but thank god they're not.
posted by chris24 at 3:20 PM on September 24, 2016 [15 favorites]

So I'm reading the Scientific American article linked by Westringia F. and came across this:

Donald Trump (R): The premise of this question is exactly correct—scientific advances do require long term investment.

and I can't stop laughing. "The premise of this question is exactly correct"! He comes across like a high school debater who doesn't know what in hell he is talking about but is trying to fill up his time.* Clinton, of course, provides very thoughtful and insightful answers.

I strongly recommend reading this. Come for the hilarity, stay for the science.

*I would have also accepted, "Thank you for that question. It is a very valuable question and one that really needs an answer. I will do my best to answer it."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:21 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

Not to say its a done deal and we don't need to keep working hard. Cuz we do. Just pointing out one difference.
posted by chris24 at 3:21 PM on September 24, 2016

It's nice that Trump has helped lower expectations for Hillary at the debate. He didn't have to but he did. Because he's a moron playing checkers while Hillary plays chess.
posted by asteria at 3:27 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

We need to keep an attitude of fearful motivation short of panic, even if (when?) Trump falls farther behind. Because of those other Republicans, remember?

Here's a nice issue-centric cartoon from Tom Gauld: "The Sensible Caterpillar (building a high wall) and the Stupid Beetle ('too stupid to see that they were changing his way of life')"
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:28 PM on September 24, 2016 [9 favorites]

I really think reading anymore into this than Trump got pissed about the Cuban thing and lashed out in the moment as the misogynistic idiot he is is giving him too much credit.

Whenever anyone starts trying to figure out how some not-remotely-helpful thing Trump does helps his campaign, I just remember that pineapples don't have sleeves.
posted by jackbishop at 3:38 PM on September 24, 2016 [20 favorites]

Sure, I'll throw my hat in the prediction ring. Trump will be low-energy compared to his campaign rallies. He'll speak in nonsensical soundbites that sound to his base (and the media) like he's speaking truth to power. "Look at those riots! This country is on the wrong track! We can't let Obama and the Democrats have control anymore, we need new leaders" He'll speak to the emotions and vague fears that every (white) person has about lower pay, and less opportunities. His policies will be vague to the point of ridiculous, but he'll sound, again to people who don't like Hillary, relatively reasonable. He'll cite the Chelsea bombings and whatever other mass shootings we manage to have before Monday as evidence of how we need a strong leader.

Hillary will be composed and fairly deadpan in comparison, nothing will rattle her, but for non-policy wonks she'll come off as boring or dismissive. But she'll outline real solutions for many millions of Americans. Those not in the tank for her won't care.

A non-insignificant portion of the population will think "Ugh. I don't like either of them." And then tune out until November when they might remember to vote.

There will be no unhinging, no smackdown, no 'gotcha' moment. It'll be surprisingly boring and info free. And we'll panic, because he'll go up in a few polls, while Hillary goes up in others. Rinse and repeat 3 times.
posted by gofargogo at 3:46 PM on September 24, 2016 [11 favorites]

A new Clinton ad focusing on a Republican small businesswoman from upstate New York.

- "I thought, this woman—I want to ride with her." —Roxie, a Republican and small business owner, on meeting Hillary -
posted by chris24 at 3:56 PM on September 24, 2016 [17 favorites]

> - "I thought, this woman—I want to ride with her." —Roxie, a Republican and small business owner, on meeting Hillary -

That video is awesome.

How many business owners can say they are proud to have worked with Donald?

(Also, I want to see Job Biden walking around with her ice cream now)
posted by mrzarquon at 3:59 PM on September 24, 2016 [11 favorites]

A new Clinton ad focusing on a Republican small businesswoman from upstate New York.

"Why do you think she's kept up her interest in this?"

BECAUSE SHE'S LESLIE FUCKING KNOPE.
posted by Talez at 4:01 PM on September 24, 2016 [12 favorites]

How many business owners can say they are proud to have worked with Donald?

She at one point made a crack that some of her biggest supporters were people who'd worked closely with her. Other of her biggest supporters were people who'd worked closely with him.
posted by Francis at 4:04 PM on September 24, 2016 [41 favorites]

Man, I wish there was a way to link to a tweet and not have the shitty replies from shitty people show up under it.

Great ad though!
posted by strange chain at 4:08 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

> Man, I wish there was a way to link to a tweet and not have the shitty replies from shitty people show up under it.


Being pros at social media, all her hillaryclinton.com videos are also uploaded to Youtube at the same time (with the comments hidden).
posted by mrzarquon at 4:15 PM on September 24, 2016 [12 favorites]

or a guest-starring slot on the Love Boat works too.

Involving a 500 pound wild boar that broke loose from his pen in the cargo hold.
posted by y2karl at 4:16 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

One Day After Endorsement, Cruz Refuses to Say Trump is Fit for the Presidency

LOL. Really you need to read all his weaselly responses. Here's the beginning.

"Smith asked: “Do you consider Donald Trump to be fit to be president?”

Cruz paused, then answered: “I think we have one of two choices.”

But that was as far as he was willing to go. With each of his carefully worded answers, Cruz made clear that he still has deep antipathy for his former primary rival. He worries about what a Trump presidency would mean."
posted by chris24 at 4:27 PM on September 24, 2016 [14 favorites]

He worries about what a Trump presidency would mean.

Mainly that Ted Cruz wouldnt be President or able to run in 2020.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:52 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

One Day After Endorsement, Cruz Refuses to Say Trump is Fit for the Presidency

The first questioner, a Muslim woman, asked how she could feel safe with a president who she believes is a racist.

Cruz answered, “That is a question you are going to have to ask yourself.” He then went on to warn about the danger of “radical Islamic terrorism” and said he worries that Hillary Clinton won’t defeat it.

The next questioner mentioned Cruz’s two young daughters. “How can you support a candidate who is so openly misogynist?”

“That is a question I have wrestled with,” Cruz replied. The answer, he said, is that Clinton would appoint as many as four liberals to the Supreme Court.

posted by kirkaracha at 4:56 PM on September 24, 2016 [16 favorites]

Kim Kardashian has endorsed Hillary, so I think that decides it and we can officially call the election over.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:03 PM on September 24, 2016 [24 favorites]

“That is a question I have wrestled with,” Cruz replied. The answer, he said, is that Clinton would appoint as many as four liberals to the Supreme Court.

So instead Cruz is going to let Trump appoint justices that will reduce his daughters to second class citizens.
posted by Talez at 5:04 PM on September 24, 2016 [19 favorites]

I mean, Cruz is pretty clear that he wants presidents to appoint justices who will reduce his daughters to second-class citizens. That's kind of his whole agenda.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:05 PM on September 24, 2016 [34 favorites]

Well, Cruz certainly would have appointed justices that would do the same...
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:06 PM on September 24, 2016

Cruz is slime and nobody should expect any better of him, but still those replies are super fucking gross.
posted by Artw at 5:06 PM on September 24, 2016 [19 favorites]

Kim Kardashian has endorsed Hillary, so I think that decides it and we can officially call the election over.

I'm glad she's made it clear because regardless of anything else she's a big celebrity and her potential Trump support really became a thing. If she was for Trump, the bleating from Trump and Trumpsters about having her in their camp would have been sick and gross and I am happy that there is one less sick and gross thing I have to read about Trump doing.
posted by Jalliah at 5:19 PM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump just will say that any tough question isn't addressing what real Americans actually worry about and then mouth "blah-blah-blah" while Clinton is speaking. His base isn't looking for anything more from him.
posted by bonobothegreat at 5:23 PM on September 24, 2016

...In football terms, we’re probably still in the equivalent of a one-score game. If the next break goes in Trump’s direction, he could tie or pull ahead of Clinton. A reasonable benchmark for how much the debates might move the polls is 3 or 4 percentage points. If that shift works in Clinton’s favor, she could re-establish a lead of 6 or 7 percentage points, close to her early-summer and post-convention peaks. If the debates cut in Trump’s direction instead, he could easily emerge with the lead. I’m not sure where that ought to put Democrats on the spectrum between mild unease and full-blown panic. The point is really just that the degree of uncertainty remains high.

Election Update: The Case For And Against Democratic Panic
posted by y2karl at 5:26 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

@hotlinejosh: INBOX: Ted Cruz won't be conducting scheduled interview (pretaped) for MTP because of "technical issues." Weird...

Cruz now backing out of interviews.
posted by chris24 at 5:27 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

The BUT Candidate Vs the AND Candidate

When you start to calculate these ratios — simply the BUTS divided by the ANDS, multiplied by 100 to make it a whole number -- a world of patterns emerges.

Boring Presidents from Eisenhower to George W. Bush averaged below 10, as did the early Presidents. All of George W. Bush’s State of the Union addresses scored less than 10.

Great orators like Lincoln, Kennedy and Teddy Roosevelt averaged over 20. Nixon’s first inaugural — where he clearly had a story he wanted to tell the world — scored a whopping 46. Barbara Jordan’s legendary speech at the 1976 Democratic National Convention was a 36.

Donald Trump, in his primary debates and speeches averaged an astonishing 29, but Hillary Clinton was less than half that at 14. Guess which one’s speeches scored more air time on television.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:29 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

His base isn't looking for anything more from him.

True, but he can't win with just his base.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:31 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

If Trump really acts like a belligerent pig, let's not forget the go-to headline "Trump, Clinton spar in fiesty debate."
posted by argybarg at 5:31 PM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

But "his base" isn't going to win the election for him, unless the GOP Vote Suppression Machine has its best year ever AND Putin's Hacker Squad successfully targets the right states. He'll only get by with A LOT of help from his 'friends'.

And Nate Silver is just promoting Panic now in order to make the election into an ESPN-worthy game. Fivethirtyeight.com is on my list of sites not contributing anything useful to this election.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:32 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Silver is definitely spinning it pretty heavily but he's not wrong about Clinton's margins right now. She's got no room for error. If one more state flips it's game over. Of course the reverse is also true, if one more of Trump's states flips he has nowhere to go to make it up.

But the idea that Trump has no chance without suppression and hacking is wrong. It's almost but not quite as wrong as when Trump insisted he could only lose PA through cheating.
posted by Justinian at 5:47 PM on September 24, 2016

@wikileaks: Chelsea Manning, sentenced to 35 years for leaking Clinton's cables, now sentenced to solitary for suicide attempt

Clinton's cables... Alrighty. Good to see Wikileaks/Assange still working hard to elect a white supremacist fascist.
posted by chris24 at 5:56 PM on September 24, 2016 [13 favorites]

I think this is very likely the current map. Note that Clinton is at 272 EV with Florida still blank since the polling average right now is a dead tie. That's a razor thin margin. She can't lose a single state unless she takes Florida, in which case she could lose a couple and would almost certainly win the election.

That's if the election were today obviously. It could look quite different on Nov 8.
posted by Justinian at 5:56 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

I just saw a very scary PA poll so my JCPL is currently running high.
posted by peacheater at 6:09 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

She's either leading very slightly or trailing very slightly in Florida, Nevada, and North Carolina.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:10 PM on September 24, 2016

I just saw a very scary PA poll so my JCPL is currently running high.

Stop looking at individual polls. She's up 5.8% in Pennsylvania.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:16 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah Fox has Trump up by 5, while Women's Voices Women Vote have HRC up by 4. (NC)

Feh!
posted by petebest at 6:17 PM on September 24, 2016

Clicking on the time stamp creates a bookmark? Clicking on the time stamp creates a bookmark?? After 10,000 election posts I learn this today? Could we just put this in a chyron running at the bottom of the page?
posted by TWinbrook8 at 6:25 PM on September 24, 2016 [31 favorites]

You know I think I'd love to see the exchange at the debate of something like this:

Donald: Some obvious solution to some problem

Hillary: I agree with you. in fact Donald, we already have a program that does exactly that, but it has been under funded by Republican congressmen for the last X years. I've already proposed how we could expand on that program and improve on it, since as you've stated it is very effective at solving the problem, but it needs some changes so it has a broader impact outside of pilot project area.

Donald: Oh.

Maybe he'll have a stroke from the rage at being corrected by a woman while at the same time complimented by her.
posted by mrzarquon at 6:29 PM on September 24, 2016 [22 favorites]

Looking at the Suffolk University poll ("Live Phone", which is a method, I guess) it goes like this,

"Hello, my name is __________ and I am conducting a survey for Suffolk University and I would like to get your opinions on some issues of the day in North Carolina. Would you like to spend seven minutes to help us out? {ASK FOR YOUNGEST IN HOUSEHOLD}"

Are you a man or a woman? (Okay that's not written out, I assume they're guessing.)

Lease to note that {ASKING FOR YOUNGEST IN HOUSEHOLD} shows the highest percentage of respondents (27% in NC) in the 50-64 year old range. 24% 35-49.

Who has a landline, seven minutes to kill and isn't annoyed at the whole setup? (skews Trump, old loudmouth jerks)

Polls.
posted by petebest at 6:29 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

Clinton campaign's response to Trump inviting Gennifer Flowers to the debate:

"Hillary Clinton plans on using the debate to discuss the issues that make a difference in people's lives. It's not surprising that Donald Trump has chosen a different path."
posted by chris24 at 6:29 PM on September 24, 2016 [72 favorites]

Clicking on the time stamp creates a bookmark?

Not a bookmark per se, but it updates your current position in case of browser reloads. Especially useful on mobile devices.

#NextPost
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:39 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sign reporting from the field: I'm visiting family in a very republican area. I drove past four or five houses today that were covered in signs for local republican candidates and not a single Trump sign on any of them.

I suppose it could just mean that they're too disorganized to get their yard signs out, but I found it encouraging.
posted by gerstle at 6:40 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Time stamp thing is tricky though. On mobile, you seem to need an actual reload to get it to stick. Especially if you switch to another tab or tabs...
posted by Windopaene at 6:46 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

"Hillary Clinton plans on using the debate to discuss the issues that make a difference in people's lives. It's not surprising that Donald Trump has chosen a different path."

Shade for days
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:47 PM on September 24, 2016 [14 favorites]

Hrm. Are these extra long threads self policing, in that mobile users are whittled down?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:31 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

ix-nay, ix-nay . . .
posted by petebest at 7:45 PM on September 24, 2016

Last one was around this long, possibly more outrage fatigue and the end of summer kicking in finally
posted by mrzarquon at 7:50 PM on September 24, 2016

Bah, the Palin thread was 5555 comments.
posted by Mitheral at 7:53 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

Alright. Since we know the debates are the time when a lot of people are going to pay attention to politics and will ask questions and perhaps want to catch up and be informed, we might be served by coming up with egregious items (sourced) that we can share with those people.

I know some people are going fact free, or will deliberately or unknowingly just give Trump a chance because he's running on white male privilege. Its also evident that Trump makes his previous shitty things go away by coming up with a seemingly never-ending amount of new shitty things to drown the old shit in.

Maybe a single paragraph, 4-line summary, and a link.

And perhaps the broad topic. For instance, Anti-Immigrant, Financial, Policy, Lies, Anti-women, Anti-Muslim, Anti-Black, Nuclear, Endorsements, Illegal, etc.

What do you think?
posted by cashman at 7:58 PM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

I tested a bottle of orange white wine for the debate. It'll do just fine, I think. I kid you not, they make orange wine.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:59 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

What do you think?

#NextThread
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:01 PM on September 24, 2016

One of mine is under the Policy umbrella.

1. Trump basically tried to make fun of Hillary because she takes the job of president seriously.

"Throughout most of his campaign [Trump] mocked Clinton for putting out so many proposals — while his aides derided reporters for pressing for specifics, insisting that voters didn't care. "She's got people that sit in cubicles writing policy all day," Trump told Time magazine in June. "Nothing's ever going to happen. It's just a waste of paper." As for specifics, "My voters don't care and the public doesn't care," he said.

Source: Associated Press.
posted by cashman at 8:01 PM on September 24, 2016 [17 favorites]

#NextThread

But the next thread is just going to be a chatroom for the debate. I think we could actually get things posted in here and compile a pretty good list of the ridiculous things he's said and done, even if everyone just lists their one pet peeve or most egregious "are you fing kidding me" moment they had with Trump. Like the painting thing, or the $250k spent on lawyers using other people's charity donations.
posted by cashman at 8:04 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

I love when Nate Silver and Sam Wang get into it online. The story so far:

- This morning Matt Yglesias tweeted: "If you focus on the polls, historians may look back on 2016 as one of the least-dramatic elections of all time."

- To which Nate replied: "This is mostly wrong… 2016 polls have been more volatile than 2012, 2008, 2004. Certainly not as volatile as some past years (1992) though."

- And then Sam just weighed in: "As far as I am aware, Silver is factually incorrect. Standard deviation of Clinton-v-Trump national margin is 2.2%, lowest ever since 1952."
posted by chris24 at 8:07 PM on September 24, 2016 [39 favorites]

The first debate thread is coming soon. So we are waiting for that...
posted by Windopaene at 8:07 PM on September 24, 2016

To answer your question: 176 Reasons Donald Trump Shouldn't Be President, complete with the mellifluous sound of Keith Olbermann's outrage. That's 176 most egregious "are you fing kidding me" moments.
posted by zachlipton at 8:08 PM on September 24, 2016 [12 favorites]

As for specifics, "My voters don't care and the public doesn't care," he said.

That's an interesting dichotomy...
posted by Sys Rq at 8:09 PM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

But the next thread is just going to be a chatroom for the debate. I think we could actually get things posted in here and compile a pretty good list of the ridiculous things he's said and done

Other than by what's already been posted? Go for it.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:10 PM on September 24, 2016

I'm saying in a concentrated form. In a way that people could easily grab and put into an email, or on facebook.

This is cracking me up. I thought for sure people would actually start listing things. You aren't going to get somebody to watch a 12 minute video or whatever. I watched it when it came out because I like KO and have since he was on sportscenter a lifetime ago. But this is things people can pick and choose from, to be able to send to their friend or acquaintance or family member who is uninformed. So say you know your uncle isn't big on finance but would flip his shit if he saw a big list of all the horrible things Trump has said and done regarding women. You scoop up 4 or 5 things, sourced, and drop them into an email after the debate when you hear your uncle talking about voting for Trump. And so on.
posted by cashman at 8:17 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

I kid you not, they make orange wine.

The most important thing I've learned from Hillary's latest ad is that out there is someone who makes wine ice cream! Unfortunately, it looks like she's halfway across the country from me, otherwise I would be there right now stocking up on her product in honor of the debate.
posted by Salieri at 8:17 PM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

Sam also retweeted an interesting tweet a bit before his tweet above.

Nate tweeted: "It's a tight race. Clinton's the favorite but close enough that Trump would probably pull ahead if he "wins" debate."

To which Stephen Prothero tweeted, and Sam retweeted: "This is silly. More evidence that @NateSilver538 is tuning into "noise" rather than "signal."
posted by chris24 at 8:19 PM on September 24, 2016 [15 favorites]

indubitable: I check under my bed for Russians every night before I can turn out the lights. How about you guys?

It is statistically extremely unlikely that Bernie Sanders is actually under my bed ... (Monty cartoon/comic)
posted by filthy light thief at 8:23 PM on September 24, 2016

if everyone just lists their one pet peeve or most egregious "are you fing kidding me" moment they had with Trump. Like the painting thing, or the $250k spent on lawyers using other people's charity donations.

...that list would be longer than this thread is already.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:24 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

My problem is that I don't know how to talk to anyone who needs to be convinced that Trump would be a terrible president. If hearing him talk about being president doesn't make your alarm bells go crazy, I don't know the first thing to say to you. Our basic precepts are in such different places I don't know what grounds we have to speak to each other.
posted by argybarg at 8:35 PM on September 24, 2016 [34 favorites]

You're just as capable of googling "worst things that Donald Trump has said" as I am, but I came up with this list from Slate. I would probably put the thing about John McCain ("he's not a war hero. He's a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured.") at above 20.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:36 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hillary released a list of Trump lies that he may bring into the debate, including:
Trump’s Seven Deadly Lies
1. FALSE: Trump opposed the Iraq War.
2. FALSE: Trump opposed intervention in Libya.
3. FALSE: Clinton supports open borders.
4. FALSE: Clinton wants to get rid of the Second Amendment.
5. FALSE: President Obama and Clinton founded ISIS.
6. FALSE: Clinton would allow 620,000 refugees into the U.S. with no vetting.
7. FALSE: Trump will make Mexico pay for the wall.

It goes on to list, with explanations of why they're wrong, his lies about energy & climate change, crime & policing, economy & jobs, immigration, refugees, health care...

The problem with trying to make a simple "debunk-trump" primer is that you have to pick the topics, because "an overview of the lies and bullshit" is the same as "outline of all of Trump's speeches."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:38 PM on September 24, 2016 [7 favorites]

Just a suggestion. The idea has been dismissed, so we can move on.
posted by cashman at 8:40 PM on September 24, 2016

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is scheduled to meet separately in New York on Sunday with both Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton and Republican nominee Donald Trump.

Netanyahu is expected to ask both candidates to come out publicly against any attempt by the UN or any other international organization to impose a settlement on Israel. This comes in light of concern that Barack Obama, in the twilight of his presidency, may either support or even initiate a new UN Security Council resolution on the conflict.

Because what we really need right now is Netanyahu's involvement. Fuck that guy so much.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:44 PM on September 24, 2016 [40 favorites]

Wine ice cream is pretty easy to make, provided you have an ice cream maker. HMU if you're near DC, I would be delighted to make some for you!

This tweet sums up a lot of why I have so much respect for Hillary Clinton.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 8:46 PM on September 24, 2016 [26 favorites]

@woodruffbets: Trump on his ACA replacement plan: "You will be making your own deals and they will be greater than you ever thought possible"

I look forward to negotiating my own coverage, rates and claims.
posted by chris24 at 8:53 PM on September 24, 2016 [37 favorites]

Yeah I've got amazing leverage with the insurance companies: give me a lower premium or else ... I won't be able to afford it!
posted by dis_integration at 9:00 PM on September 24, 2016 [38 favorites]

Yeah, I find my negotiating skills are the sharpest when I need medical attention.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:09 PM on September 24, 2016 [63 favorites]

If you scroll down to this chart of each aggregator's state-by-state analysis, you can pretty clearly see that 538 is totally into making the race seem like a nail-biter. The blues are less blue, and the reds are less red. I mean like, significantly. It stands out visually.
posted by ctmf at 9:11 PM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

That's the real problem with healthcare, not enough capitalism.
posted by Artw at 9:12 PM on September 24, 2016 [20 favorites]

I was just thinking, I want to spend *more* time on the phone haggling over bills and coverage with my insurance company and/or medical provider than I already do.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:13 PM on September 24, 2016 [10 favorites]

Nate has bills to pay now.

Actually that's not it, he has venture capital seed money he has to demonstrate click growth to.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:13 PM on September 24, 2016

Uggh. If he can do that to ACA, can he do the same to Medicare and Medicaid?

My health care costs literally $80-$100K a year, at the minimum. And that's only because my current insurance, using the buying power that enormous insurance companies have, negotiates my health care down from what one of my providers attempts to bill at the rack rate -- some $27K a week(!). It wasn't all that long ago that they were actually doing death panels for people in my condition. If Trump finds out about me and how expensive just one 6-outta-10 brunette can be, I am genuinely frightened those days will come back.

I'm angry that voters are so willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to health care. It's shameful.
posted by mochapickle at 9:18 PM on September 24, 2016 [25 favorites]

he has venture capital seed money he has to demonstrate click growth to.

ESPN owns them. So he has a struggling, money-losing media giant who's spending lots of money outside of their core business to demonstrate click growth to.
posted by chris24 at 9:19 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Actually not a joke question: is there a poll aggregator aggregator where I can see how it compares with its competition?
posted by Artw at 9:26 PM on September 24, 2016

ctmf's link to NYT's the Upshot is probably the best comparison of aggregators. (about midway down the page.)
posted by chris24 at 9:28 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

How many people, right now, can name the details of the Gennifer Flowers story? Something something Bill Clinton slept with her maybe? I’m guessing nobody under 35 can. I’m pretty fuzzy on it because the Bill scandals were very unpleasant to witness (and I was a Republican at the time!) and I stopped paying attention when it was happening.

As for Clinton being “rattled,” by Flowers, ha! If she got through it when it happened and then while it was national news, I’m fairly sure she’s done being rattled by it. I’m very sure every single Clinton scandal of 90s was considered likely to come up and so was prepared for, especially for a debate.

I’ve decided that panic is unhelpful and so I’m not going to do it. I’m doing what I can to increase voting (even though my state being anything but red is a dim possibility) and sending money and posting stuff online and that is the extent of the good I am personally able to do.
posted by emjaybee at 9:33 PM on September 24, 2016 [16 favorites]

If you scroll down to this chart of each aggregator's state-by-state analysis, you can pretty clearly see that 538 is totally into making the race seem like a nail-biter. The blues are less blue, and the reds are less red. I mean like, significantly. It stands out visually.

Wow, that's pretty damning.

I've always said that in any for-profit company, if there's a button that they can push that will make them more money, no matter what other things the button might do, over time it becomes more and more likely that someone will push it.

So, if the cable company can make their voice-response system harder to use, less people get through to talk to a human, and they have less humans to pay. If they can make it harder to cancel your service, less people will cancel. These seem like "evil" things but really they're just more-money buttons that someone in the company couldn't help pushing. There are even worse examples, for example industrial companies pushing the "spend less time on EPA compliance" button to save money.

538 is either the most accurate aggregator and all of the others are wrong... or someone there pushed the "Make the race look tighter so we get more pageviews" button.

I hope it's the latter.
posted by mmoncur at 9:35 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

As for Clinton being “rattled,” by Flowers, ha! If she got through it when it happened and then while it was national news, I’m fairly sure she’s done being rattled by it.
Now, if Deplorable Donald could get Vince Foster in the front row at the debate, THAT would rattle Hillary... and every other non-ghoul at the event.

538 is either the most accurate aggregator and all of the others are wrong... or someone there pushed the "Make the race look tighter so we get more pageviews" button.
Forget Trump's Razor, this looks like a job for Occam.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:38 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Orange wine is an oxidized, unique fermentation process worth trying. Trump is not.
posted by erisfree at 9:39 PM on September 24, 2016 [9 favorites]

Ignoring the punditry those graphs all look pretty much the same shape, with some variation in baseline, so I don't think I'm ready to sign up for "538 is just crazy nonsense" just yet.
posted by Artw at 9:40 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well, or another possible motivation: being weaselly. "We said it would be close the whole time, so we weren't really 'wrong'".
posted by ctmf at 9:40 PM on September 24, 2016

How many people, right now, can name the details of the Gennifer Flowers story?

The one practical thing pulling in Flowers does for him is that it encourages media outlets to refresh everyone's memories for the sake of context. That in turn is basically more bad news cycles for HRC. That, like the emails and the Clinton Foundation and so on, has been generally bad for her poll numbers and good for him. Ultimately if there's negative media attention on her, it helps him. Even if the matter at hand is clearly stupid.

On that level alone, this seems like something savvy. The thing is, after he publicly embarrassed most of the mainstream media with his hotel infomercial stunt, he might not get his way. At this point I feel like it's a question of whether the media has the sense and the spine required not to take this bait. Unfortunately, the MSM has generally been blisteringly stupid about this race, so they might continue on with that.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:44 PM on September 24, 2016 [9 favorites]

Yeah, not going to bet against spineless and stupid anytime now.
posted by Artw at 9:47 PM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

Come on, who among us doesn't remember Hillary's shady real estate deal with Gennifer Flowers, her affair with Vince Foster, and her brutal murder of the McDougal family?
posted by tonycpsu at 9:49 PM on September 24, 2016 [7 favorites]

I'm sorry, the McWhogal family?
posted by palomar at 9:52 PM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

I remember something about the Clinton's Satan worshiping daycare center, but it's fuzzy.
posted by bongo_x at 9:54 PM on September 24, 2016 [11 favorites]

'Make your own health insurance deals' for a lot of people is 'see if you can get a visa for Canada.' If you're self-employed and have a chronic condition, without guaranteed issue you're screwed.

I hope HRC can cite a few examples of entrepreneurs who've benefitted from the ACA's provisions. Or just call bullshit and talk about how people can now not go bankrupt from medical bills. (She ought to say 'bankrupt' a lot. And 'broke'. Every answer, please.)
posted by holgate at 9:58 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

ABC-Wapo Clinton +2

"Both candidates continue to be viewed negatively by the voters. Currently, 39 percent of registered voters have a favorable impression of Clinton, while 57 percent have an unfavorable impression. For Trump, the results are comparable: 38 percent see him positively, 57 percent negatively. That unfavorability number, however, is five points lower than it was just before the two parties’ national conventions in July."

Congrats, New York Times, mission accomplished.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:03 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

On a lighter note, Owen Ellickson is having fun on Twitter:

HILLARY: So. You're bringing Bill's old fling.
TRUMP: You're bringing a man who's richer than me! Equally below the belt, if not more so

TRUMP: Look, if it's-
HILLARY: Bring her. Fly her in 1st!
TRUMP: She's in coach. Middle seat.
HILLARY: All they had left?
TRUMP: I specified
posted by Surely This at 10:03 PM on September 24, 2016 [7 favorites]

Hillary Clinton's RBF
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:07 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is scheduled to meet separately in New York on Sunday with both Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton and Republican nominee Donald Trump.

Worth reading between the lines: the Trump campaign approached Netanyahu but Netanyahu made the meeting conditional on him meeting Clinton as well. Netanyahu is either for Hillary, or he is pretty sure she's going to win and doesn't want to risk anything that looks like a slight.

I tend to suspect the first theory, because (a) Netanyahu already criticised Trump's racist comments (which led to the cancellation of a mooted Trump visit to Israel); and (b) Netanyahu isn't an idiot. The very last thing Israel needs is a loudmouth gung-ho friend of Putin setting US foreign policy in Syria and Iraq. But anyway, the important thing is that nobody is giving Trump any favors; Trump doesn't have any friends.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:09 PM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

'Make your own health insurance deals' for a lot of people is 'see if you can get a visa for Canada.' If you're self-employed and have a chronic condition, without guaranteed issue you're screwed.

And Canada won't issue visas to people with chronic conditions because it causes excessive demand on their health or social services. So Canada is out of the question for many people facing an uphill battle with health care costs.
posted by mochapickle at 10:29 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

Jill Harth, woman who sued Trump over alleged sexual assault, breaks silence
posted by Artw at 10:31 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

...two months ago. And his numbers have only gone up since then.
posted by mmoncur at 10:35 PM on September 24, 2016

Ah shit, I did not catch the date on that. And yeah, I guess that shows how much attention that's getting.
posted by Artw at 10:46 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

Netanyahu has already gotten involved in American politics with his speech to Congress not long ago, which was basically him teaming up with Republicans to snub Obama. There's absolutely zero reason to believe he's above meddling in this election if he thinks it'll net him a win. What happens if one candidate agrees to his requests and the other doesn't? Then it's a total thing. And the blunt fact is, Trump IS stupid enough to do whatever Netanyahu wants to get his support, which in turn will affect whatever decisions Clinton makes on this.

Netanyahu isn't stupid, no. But he's out for himself, wrapping the flag of Israel around himself the way Trump hugs American flags.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:48 PM on September 24, 2016 [13 favorites]

There's absolutely zero reason to believe he's above meddling in this election if he thinks it'll net him a win.

Trump openly promotes the views of anti-Semites. There are some lines even Bibi won't cross and I'm pretty sure this is one of them.
posted by mightygodking at 10:53 PM on September 24, 2016

Has the traditional process of US Presidents trying to push through peace in the Middle East on their way out the door ever led to anything of any use whatsoever?
posted by zachlipton at 10:58 PM on September 24, 2016

Worth reading between the lines: the Trump campaign approached Netanyahu but Netanyahu made the meeting conditional on him meeting Clinton as well. Netanyahu is either for Hillary, or he is pretty sure she's going to win and doesn't want to risk anything that looks like a slight.

Netanyahu threw his hat behind Romney last time and it backfired spectacularly. Fool me twice, won't get fooled again!
posted by PenDevil at 11:00 PM on September 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well... A Significant Deal Between the U.S. and Israel

Barack Obama and Benjamin Netanyahu met at the United Nations on Wednesday—their conversation was, as expected, tactful, punctuated by smiles and banter. The President—whose Administration just signed a Memorandum of Understanding (M.O.U.) with Israel, committing to a ten-year, thirty-eight-billion-dollar aid package—has reason, this election season, to stress his contribution to Israel’s military strength. “We want to make sure that Israel has the full capabilities it needs in order to keep the Israeli people safe,” Obama told the press before the meeting. Netanyahu, who has openly allied with Congressional Republicans—and has been attacked at home for damaging relations with the President in the process—has reason to show gratitude for the Administration’s largesse.

posted by oneswellfoop at 11:06 PM on September 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

This election, I don't even. Why is this still a race?
posted by mazola at 11:09 PM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

i hear the "they're both terrible, none of the above" thing absolutely everywhere. I heard it on an Overwatch voice line, for corn's sake. It has become the thing anyone can say and be safe -- people who disagree with it will mostly clam up. Oddly enough, in the most terrifying and consequential election of any of our lifetimes, it has become a unifying, almost non-partisan thing to say. The fact that it suggests no useful future doesn't matter; it's just something to make the speaker sound with-it and smarter than politics.

I wonder if this is part of what is moving the polls so close: Not a warming to Trump or reponse to Hillary, but a consensus on that narrative: "I don't like either one!"
posted by argybarg at 11:10 PM on September 24, 2016 [21 favorites]

i hear the "they're both terrible, none of the above" thing absolutely everywhere.

Drives. Me. Nuts.
posted by mazola at 11:15 PM on September 24, 2016 [12 favorites]

I hope you guys are right. I've lost all tolerance for Netanyahu.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:19 PM on September 24, 2016

What happens if one candidate agrees to his requests and the other doesn't? Then it's a total thing. And the blunt fact is, Trump IS stupid enough to do whatever Netanyahu wants to get his support [...]

All we have to go on is what's in the article, which says "Only after both camps consented was it agreed that the meetings would take place [...]"

Look, I get that you don't like Netanyahu, but the article is very clear that he wasn't willing to side with one candidate over another. Netanyahu wasn't so punctilious in the last US Presidential election (to be fair, neither was Obama, in Israel's last general election). More significantly, the Jerusalem Post seems to have been briefed that Netanyahu made his meeting conditional on his meeting Clinton as well: the condition was an implicit snub and the story can only have come from Netanyahu's office.

I think it's interesting to speculate why Netanyahu's office may have chosen to implicitly reject Trump's overture, and why they would have made that rejection public. Leaving reasons of sentiment out of it (which I acknowledge may be a mistake) it implies that Netanyahu believes that he will gain more by being publicly friendly to Clinton's campaign than he will lose by insulting Trump's. Trump is notoriously thin-skinned; insulting him is potentially risky; so I can only think Netanyahu doesn't expect that Trump will win.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:35 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

Mos def IRL I get the vibe that both are terrible.

You know, it's not just the polls. It's the whole toxic mess. It's the normalization of awfulness. I've referred to this teen before, the one where he sez everybody at his high school thinks that Trump is hilarious. Well, I was laughing my ass off when this kid told me that somebody had put a Trump sticker on the back of a school bus, a kid duly notified the driver of this fact, and the driver erupted into very non-approved obscenities. What can I say, I'm an educator, I can totally see myself reacting in that way even if there were wee children around, and I'm a lover of pranks that punch up or at least not down.

But then I mentioned that I had read (here) that there was a sighting of a "Trump That Bitch" sticker in the wild. The kid said that it was common on the internet.

I had a hard time reacting constructively to that. (I see a therapist in which I discuss this issue and this is not an ask, just to be clear). I'm not his parent, and so if I have concerns I communicate them to his parents, but that doesn't really end up in the kid thinking I'm his number one hero.

To be clear, I'm not blaming the kid for the existence of Reddit or the chans or the gamer culture. But he's immersed in it, and that saying that children are like sponges well there's always truth to the cliche.

And given Trump's 1/4-1/3 chance of winning the presidency, I just have a really hard time being patient with that shit these days, even if it comes out of the mouth of a kid who is so often a really sweet guy.
posted by angrycat at 11:59 PM on September 24, 2016 [9 favorites]

"They're both terrible!" is the sort of thoughtless cliche that people who like to think they are more sophisticated than the average bear will say. You know, like "both parties are two sides of the same oligarchical coin!" (except they usually won't know the word oligarchy) or "Communism works wonderfully in theory!" or similar attempts at being clever. They think it makes them mature and insightful observers of the system unlike those pitiable folks who think their vote actually, you know, matters.

But it's actually an incredibly immature viewpoint. People who look at the world like that tend to be people whose worldview has never significantly advanced beyond the freshman bullshitting session level.

It reminds me of something I read (though I'm not sure where) about the American Civil War; People who know very little about the Civil War will tell you it was about slavery. People who know a modest amount will tell you it was about State's Rights. People who know a great deal about it will tell you it was about slavery.

"They're both terrible!" is the middle bit of that progression. People who think they know about politics but are actually revealing their ignorance in a Dunning-Kruger manner.
posted by Justinian at 12:13 AM on September 25, 2016 [58 favorites]

< (to be fair, neither was Obama, in Israel's last general election)

To be fair, at the very end, Netanyahu was resorting to tactics that had more in common with Trump's than anyone (including himself) would like to admit. People accustomed to power can end up making all sorts of shitty claims and promises in exchange for not losing power.

In sorta-related "how weird can this election get" news, Ehud Barak bumped into Ivanka and Jared Kushner in LA.
posted by holgate at 12:17 AM on September 25, 2016

But the next thread is just going to be a chatroom for the debate.

Ugh. I hope not. I won't be able to watch the debate live and of course would like to hear reactions to it on the site, but I dread seeing hundreds of posts just reacting to something without context. Shouldn't that kind of thing be on Fanfare?
posted by gusottertrout at 12:25 AM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

Doing Debate-Centric Posts on Fanfare... I second that motion. Should we discuss it in MetaTalk?
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:29 AM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wouldn't mind that. Though I suppose the mods might not be thrilled with two threads about the election being open at the same time.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:35 AM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

There's always MeFi chat for all your real-time reactions, which I think the mods have encouraged in the past to reduce thread load. But IMHO it's nice having at least the more substantial commentary saved for posterity in the thread itself.
posted by Rhaomi at 12:40 AM on September 25, 2016 [13 favorites]

I believe the FanFare debate thing has been discussed and rejected already?
posted by Justinian at 12:53 AM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

i hear the "they're both terrible, none of the above" thing absolutely everywhere. I heard it on an Overwatch voice line, for corn's sake. It has become the thing anyone can say and be safe -- people who disagree with it will mostly clam up. Oddly enough, in the most terrifying and consequential election of any of our lifetimes, it has become a unifying, almost non-partisan thing to say. The fact that it suggests no useful future doesn't matter; it's just something to make the speaker sound with-it and smarter than politics.

FWIW, I'm seeing a lot of my "they're both terrible" FB-friends warming a lot more to Hillary now, both because they are realizing how much of their perception of Hillary is due to a life time of Republican propaganda, and because the more they see of Trump, the more scared they get. This includes some of my female Bernie-or-bust friends. But the male Bernie-bros are relentless, and they regularly post right-wing slander with comments like "this time she's done!" It's disgusting.

I have Trump-supperting friends too, but they are not American and don't have American friends, so it doesn't matter much. They are all nice, but very uneducated and easily confused.
posted by mumimor at 12:56 AM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

Mod note: Re Debate post: We've talked about this a bit, and we can have a dedicated debate thread, but it needs not to be a chat-type thing where people are reacting with no context, like, "omg, he DIDN'T just say that!!!" Discussion about the debate: fine, but live chat without context should go in Mefi Chat (I think frimble was maybe looking at setting up a special channel on Chat for that). In other words, people who are not watching / haven't watched the debate directly should be able to read and understand the thread and what people are talking about. Also, it shouldn't be posted too early, so that there are hundreds of comments before the event actually begins. It's totally fine to make a Metatalk post about this if folks think it needs more discussion.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:04 AM on September 25, 2016 [32 favorites]

"SPACE COMMUNISM NOW"

I would vote the fuck out of that platform. Somebody get the Axlotl tanks fired up, we've got a candidate to build!
posted by Meatbomb at 1:10 AM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

Thanks taz. Chat type comments were exactly the sort of thing I was worried about, but having a separate thread and a warning about maintaining context should make things at least a little easier to parse after the fact.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:16 AM on September 25, 2016

Mefi Chat + Margaritas it is.
posted by Justinian at 1:17 AM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

I would also vote for a Mexican space Communism salamander if it's that kind of tank.
posted by XMLicious at 1:26 AM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

There are a lot of people right now who seem unhappy with the numbers (and now images) on 538 versus the other poll aggregators. I've followed Nate Silver's projections since the primaries of 2008. I geeked out on his detailed explanation of how his model works. It has not changed. Here's the website from Sept 25, 2008. The states have muted colors when they're projected to be close. The detailed poll listing has the same date/weights format. The poll tracker crosses the 50% line. The projected electoral votes have a WIDE distribution. The scenario analysis table has the same lines in it.

There are important reasons why 538 polls only model looks different from poll aggregators.

Mr Silver has chosen to model sampling error with a wide distribution. This accounts for the possibility that even if ten polls of Florida give similar results, those results have to come from pollsters who make assumptions about voter turnout, composition of the electorate versus composition of the people they sample, etc. Those assumptions are likely to be similar to each other and based on standard methodologies (what has historically worked). If one pollster makes an inaccurate assumption - say that both campaigns will have functioning GOTV efforts as has been the case historically - then many of the pollsters are likely to make the same error. A poll aggregator is likely to treat each poll as an independent sample and be more confident that the larger sample obtained by doing so is more accurate.

Mr Silver has wide ranges of error in future projections from today's polls. This is because there simply aren't many examples (well polled presidential elections) to go by historically, and wide distributions work better when modeling events based on the psychology of people.

Mr Silver also has a very wide range of outcomes in the EV projections. This is because some states are fairly similar (Minnesota and Wisconsin) and their polling errors will tend to be correlated.

These are important assumptions and I can't fault him for making any of them. If the race is stable and the polls are accurate, any site is going to give the same answers. I want to have a better view of the potential outcomes based on the things I don't know yet, so I accept a wider range of uncertainty than appears at PEC.

As for the punditry, it's crap. I miss posts like this.
posted by Emmy Noether at 5:24 AM on September 25, 2016 [21 favorites]

ESPN owns them. So he has a struggling, money-losing media giant who's spending lots of money outside of their core business to demonstrate click growth to.

(See also: NYT, NBC, CNN, tronc (Bwahahaaa), LA Times, Gizmodo . . . )

Apologies for the broken record but the "they're both terrible" is only the latest in a mind-boggly lond stream of damning indictments against the corporate media edifice the American society is welded to.

If outright lies and bulls**t don't get challenged before tens of thousands of innocent women and children are murdered (specifically referencing Iraq War II, but the case for several other war crimes could ne made . . .), IT IS EVIDENT they have absolutely no compunction about tilting the table in Trump's favor just for the lulz money. Yeah, they know the nukes are in play this time. (Trump's call is coming from inside their house!)

Seriously Jeff Zucker has more on his karma list than "fired Conan because Tonight show is confusing". Hanging his totes fav Trump Tweet on the wall at CNN ought to be a firable offense.
posted by petebest at 5:37 AM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

LAT: Scope of Trump's falsehoods unprecedented for a modern presidential candidate
posted by chris24 at 5:48 AM on September 25, 2016 [11 favorites]

Election 2016 Best Twittery Nomnee, Comedy or Variety, Owen Ellickson:
TRUMP: Flowers looks good. Not GOOD good, she's indefensibly old, but-- (click)
TRUMP: Hello?
HILLARY: Hi, fuckwit.
TRUMP:
CONWAY:

HILLARY: Just letting you know: I have information about your campaign. Someone's been lying to you.
CONWAY: Donald, we-
TRUMP: Shut up, Kel

TRUMP: I got a rat in the house?
HILLARY. Big one. Huge.
TRUMP: Well, Hil, be a pal--
HILLARY: I'll tell you who. An hour before our debate.

TRUMP: Who is it?
CONWAY: Don't let her get into your head.
HILLARY: Too late. I'm doing laps in that God-forsaken thing.
TRUMP: WHO (click)
posted by petebest at 5:57 AM on September 25, 2016 [23 favorites]

NYT: 2008 Crisis Deepened the Ties Between Clintons and Goldman Sachs

Yes, when the email thing maybe starts to die down, time for the Times to dredge up and repeat financial impropriety insinuation.
posted by chris24 at 6:01 AM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

I really don't like the strategy of attacking Nate Silver. I realize that it makes you feel better, but I don't think the goal here should be to feel better. It reminds me too much of what happened with Brexit: the polls suggested the possibility of a result that seemed unthinkable, so people came up with reasons to discount the polls. I don't think we should be doing the unskewing bullshit. The polls suggest that Trump could win. If that is an unthinkable result to you, then you need to think about what you, personally, can be doing to prevent it. Don't assume that it's up to someone else to fix this.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:07 AM on September 25, 2016 [32 favorites]

This is probably a given, but I hope the debate FPP mentions the MetaChat policy in bold, above the fold, with a link.

I'd even suggest posting the FPP after the debate, but it's all good.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:16 AM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

Rick Lazio just sent some "advice" to Trump - he is blaming his 2000 loss to Hillary on the fact that he left his podium during the debates to confront her.

Dear Rick: I voted in that election, and I voted for Hillary, but it was because of where you stood on the issues, not where you stood during the debate.

I also just left a comment on the Facebook link for that NYT article about Clinton and Goldman-Sachs asking them to FOR THE LOVE OF GOD start paying attention to Trump's financial ties to foreign nationals because that was way shadier, seriously.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:21 AM on September 25, 2016 [13 favorites]

NYT: 2008 Crisis Deepened the Ties Between Clintons and Goldman Sachs

What the shit, NYT?! You couldn't be arsed to scoop any newer reporting than 2011 for this hit piece? Is this an Op-Ed? (Nope. A headline in the "Politics" section)

Wait til NYT Public Editor Liz Spayd hears about this! She's gonna come down on ace reporters NICHOLAS CONFESSORE and SUSANNE CRAIG like a ton of bricks!!

*sigh*
posted by petebest at 6:21 AM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

LAT: Scope of Trump's falsehoods unprecedented for a modern presidential candidate

I don't know why I haven't thought of this before because it is so obvious, and many commenters have hinted at it without saying it directly: across the globe, construction and all of it's side industries is a business ridden by commissions, corruption, hyperbole, stiffing weaker partners, stiffing clients and much more along that line. I was once offered a 25% commission, and for the people doing that to even know my number, government officials had to have been involved. I remembered because a person in that article was a real estate broker, and I remembered that those of my FB friends who are Trumpers are also all within construction, somehow.
I think if you work within that field, lies and hyperbole is not as damning as in some other fields - it's almost the norm. I know I excuse some of my friends who are a bit too close to unsavoriness. That doesn't mean I believe everyone in the business are corrupt or evil, or Trump voters, not at all. More that it is a business where boundaries are a little fuzzy.
I once attended a lecture with the great German architect Stefan Behnisch and it has stuck with me that he said: "if you can afford to work in China, you won't want to", hinting at the crazy corruption surrounding the Beijing Olympics construction. He had much more complex comments about the US construction scene, but also much less direct and quotable, out of an expressed fear of losing access.

Summa: maybe lot of Trump supporters are less worried about a crazy, lying corrupt president than they are about more Rule of Law and less corruption and tax-evasion. This would make a lot more sense than the endless economy discourse a lot of left and right commentators are putting out: Trumps voters are blue collar and male, but they are not poor.
posted by mumimor at 6:22 AM on September 25, 2016 [9 favorites]

People can unskew polls to their hearts content if that helps them reduce their panic levels to the point where they can take constructive actions to help the Clinton campaign/hinder the Trunp campaign. I'm an atheist, but I've got no problem with people who believe in a God. If that helps them be better people then it's all good.
posted by um at 6:25 AM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

Sure, I agree. Panic is not going to help anyone. It's still more likely that Clinton will win than that Trump will. But use that non-panic to get motivated, not to get complacent. We need all hands on deck.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:29 AM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

I personally have no issue with Nate's model. I think the race is close and Trump does have a decent chance of winning. I have a problem with how Nate is pushing his model, almost seeming to try to invoke panic, literally repeatedly using clickbaity "Dems should panic" in headlines and tweets. And getting irritated when some people don't panic. His social media focus seems less informative and more designed to play on Democratic fears. And generate clicks.

And I'm to the only one who's noticed. Josh Marshall just tweeted:

A mystery to me what this air of defensiveness is about.

In response to Nate's last tweet of:

538 model has Clinton +2 nationally, exactly matching the new ABC/Post poll. Result shouldn't be a surprise.
posted by chris24 at 6:32 AM on September 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

Is this an Op-Ed? (Nope. A headline in the "Politics" section)

Worse. It's on the front page of the print edition (on a Sunday, when people actually buy the thing)
posted by Mchelly at 6:33 AM on September 25, 2016

1. There are other poll aggregators besides Nate Silver, most of which are far more bullish on Clinton than Nate Silver is
2. Even Nate Silver still has Clinton winning the thing, as he has for pretty much the entire time
3. UK polling is vastly different and less reliable than American polling so can we just drop the Brexit nonsense already, it's a completely different thing
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:33 AM on September 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

And it seems Trump backed down again.

Gennifer Flowers will not be at the debate per @johnrobertsFox
posted by chris24 at 6:41 AM on September 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

And it seems Trump is trying to distract from the Flowers mess by reaching out to Bernie or Busters.

Many on the team and staff of Bernie Sanders have been treated badly by the Hillary Clinton campaign - and they like Trump on trade, a lot!

Bernie Sanders gave Hillary the Dem nomination when he gave up on the e-mails. That issue has only gotten bigger!
posted by chris24 at 6:43 AM on September 25, 2016

I don't know who Nate Silver is, so I have no need to trust or discredit him.
posted by agregoli at 6:46 AM on September 25, 2016

FYI, the actual LA Times print article doesn't say "Scope of Trump's falsehoods unprecedented", it says:

Scope of Trump's Lies Unmatched

Nice to see the L word used on the front page.
posted by chris24 at 6:48 AM on September 25, 2016 [12 favorites]

Hey Bernie Bros, ever think to wonder why Trump is pandering to you so heavily?

Think about it.
posted by Yowser at 6:49 AM on September 25, 2016 [14 favorites]

The main problem with Silver's current line of punditry is that it's heavy on the "if X, then Y, then DEMS SHOULD PANIC" when neither X nor Y is present in the data: he's hypothetically skewing his own model, and he's also focusing on individual polls when they line up with that model.

I think it's a close race and that there are better things to do with one's time and energy than worry about Silver's motivation.
posted by holgate at 6:55 AM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

NYT does have "A Week of Whoppers from Trump" on the print front page, but just in a small subhead leading to a story on page 25. So nothing compared to the big Clinton/GS story.

But at least the article led is pretty good: "All politicians bend the truth to fit their purposes, including Hillary Clinton. But Donald J. Trump has unleashed a blizzard of falsehoods, exaggerations and outright lies in the general election, peppering his speeches, interviews and Twitter posts with untruths so frequent that they can seem flighty or random — even compulsive."
posted by chris24 at 6:55 AM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Politico also belatedly getting into the Trump fact-checking business:

Donald Trump’s Week of Misrepresentations, Exaggerations and Half-Truths

"The conclusion is inescapable: Trump’s mishandling of facts and propensity for exaggeration so greatly exceed Clinton’s as to make the comparison almost ludicrous.

Though few statements match the audacity of his statement about his role in questioning Obama’s citizenship, Trump has built a cottage industry around stretching the truth. According to POLITICO’s five-day analysis Trump averaged about one falsehood every three minutes and 15 seconds over nearly five hours of remarks.

In raw numbers, that’s 87 erroneous statements in five days."
posted by chris24 at 7:40 AM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

Aaaaaand Trump's campaign manager has said that the Flowers thing was never real and that she 'can't believe how easily the Clinton campaign was baited' by the rumor, which is both hilarious, because they never took the bait, and horrifying, because of course Trump creates his own reality and a lot of people will believe that's true.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:45 AM on September 25, 2016 [19 favorites]

Kurt Eichenwald ‏@kurteichenwald
Now that @realDonaldTrump has put mistresses in play with his Flowers stunt, time to open up my BIG file on his affairs for another article.

Uh oh. Spaghetti-Os!
posted by Talez at 7:46 AM on September 25, 2016 [18 favorites]

Nobody is going to care/pay attention to an article about Donald's affairs. It's a waste of time.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:48 AM on September 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

Why did he have to wait for "Trump to put mistresses in play", do you think Clinton would've been afforded the same deference if the media had a MASSIVE stack of juicy oppo that could be rolled out at any time?
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:50 AM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

I am constantly gobsmacked at how clueless members of the media are about how misogyny works.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:51 AM on September 25, 2016 [38 favorites]

Aaaaaand Trump's campaign manager has said that the Flowers thing was never real and that she 'can't believe how easily the Clinton campaign was baited' by the rumor

and we have always been at war with Eurasia.
posted by holgate at 7:54 AM on September 25, 2016 [16 favorites]

Well, an article on his affairs probably won't work on men, but his big issues are with women and some of them might care. One more reminder that Trump is that asshole guy that all of them know and hate.
posted by chris24 at 7:59 AM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump appears to be avoiding all national media besides Fox to temper birtherism that other reporters have been chomping at the bit for. Only once in the past week has he been interviewed by any sort of media outside Fox (ABC6 on September 21st) and this was the question:

Garbarek: "This announcement earlier this week with you saying that you believe President (Barack) Obama was, in fact, born in the United States, after all the years where you've expressed some doubt, what changed?"

Trump: "Well, I just wanted to get on with, I wanted to get on with the campaign. A lot of people were asking me questions. We want to talk about jobs. We want to talk about the military. We want to talk about ISIS and get rid of ISIS. We want to talk about bringing jobs back to this area, because you've been decimated, so we just wanted to get back on the subject of jobs, military, taking care of our vets, etc."

So the national TV media seems to have just shrugged their shoulders and given up. Ditto on the Trump foundation. Nobody can get Trump to answer any questions leaving Kellyanne & Co. to spin and lie through their teeth for him.
posted by Talez at 8:01 AM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Conway: "And I really don't appreciate campaigns thinking it is the job of the media to go and be these virtual fact-checkers...
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:05 AM on September 25, 2016 [11 favorites]

"And I really don't appreciate campaigns thinking it is the job of the media to go and be these virtual fact-checkers...

Cuz that really harshes my pathological liar buzz.
posted by chris24 at 8:07 AM on September 25, 2016 [26 favorites]

African-American respondents in the new WaPo/ABC poll: Clinton 89%, Stein 3%, Johnson & Trump tied at 2%.

Amazing how when you're not blinded by white supremacy you see right through Trump.
posted by chris24 at 8:11 AM on September 25, 2016 [47 favorites]

Politico: Conway calls Trump 'the Babe Ruth of debating' [real]

“He's a brilliant debater,” Conway said on ABC’s “This Week.” “Newt Gingrich put it best. The former Speaker recently said Donald Trump is the best debater he's ever seen. He's like the Babe Ruth of debating. He really shows up and swings and does a great job.”

I was skeptical, but if Newt Gingrich is saying it, then. . . .

Also I wonder what happened to lowering expectations in advance of the debate. Is Trump feeling a little cocky about his chances?
posted by Spathe Cadet at 8:15 AM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

Also I wonder what happened to lowering expectations in advance of the debate. Is Trump feeling a little cocky about his chances?

Why wouldn't he? He's had the media swinging from his nuts for months now. Lowering expectations is for losers. He's a winner. The instant he acknowledges that the usual rules of politics might apply to him, he runs the risk of losing his power over them.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:19 AM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

More like the Ty Cobb of debating I'd think. He's got the same sort of people skills. I mean Trump is clearly the most likely candidate to dive into the crowd to attack someone in a wheelchair.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:21 AM on September 25, 2016 [12 favorites]

538: take the initial poll of likely voters with third party candidates included; adjust for likely voters; adjust for omitted third parties; adjust for trend line; adjust for house effect; allocate undecided and third party voters; apply demographic regression. Voila, Clinton leading by 2% nationally.

PEC: take the median of the likely voter polls; voila, Clinton leading by 1.8% nationally.

But sure, I prefer Sam Wang because he's the one unskewing the polls to make me feel better about Clinton's chances.
posted by one_bean at 8:25 AM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

I have been idly wondering about a timeline in which some other powerful country decided to bomb and invade the US in order to topple Führer Trump and effect "regime change." The justification seems clear. We have nukes!
posted by GrammarMoses at 8:29 AM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Conway continuing the "Clinton started birtherism in 2008" lie again this morning.

It wouldn't change anything, but it'd be gratifying to have the chyron people use "Trump Campaign Liar" as her title on-air.
posted by strange chain at 8:32 AM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

And a great essay in the Atlantic this morning on Trump being that asshole, sexist guy every woman knows:

The Four Donald Trumps You Meet On Earth: I swear there’s something familiar about this guy.

"Donald Trump has said repugnant, insulting things about women—over and over and over again—for as long as he’s been in the public eye. He has called various women crazy, flat-chested, pigs. He refers to them as “pieces of ass.” He said pumping breast milk was “disgusting.”

“Women,” he told New York magazine in 1992. “You have to treat them like shit.”

Trump’s misogyny is shocking because it’s so brazen, but it’s infuriating because it’s so familiar. Chances are, if you’re a woman in 2016, you’ve heard it all before..."
posted by chris24 at 8:36 AM on September 25, 2016 [49 favorites]

Joy Reid smacking down email lies by saying "it's just not true" and refusing to discuss further.

She shoulda been called Hope.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:48 AM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump campaign: Nuh-uh! We baited them!
posted by kirkaracha at 9:01 AM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

And a great essay in the Atlantic this morning on Trump being that asshole, sexist guy every woman knows:

The Four Donald Trumps You Meet On Earth: I swear there’s something familiar about this guy.


Holy fuck that is powerful.
posted by Mchelly at 9:30 AM on September 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

How Lester Holt is getting ready for Monday's debate

"He has thought a lot about his responsibility to the viewing public.

With regards to fact-checking, "Lester is not going to be a potted plant," one NBC staffer close to Holt said.

Another staffer seconded that sentiment.

This doesn't mean Holt will interrupt every time he hears a lie. Officials at the Commission on Presidential Debates say the candidates should challenge each other.

But Holt will strive to avoid a repeat of NBC's "Commander in Chief Forum" earlier this month, when Trump falsely said he opposed the invasion of Iraq and interviewer Matt Lauer let it slide."
posted by chris24 at 9:38 AM on September 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

Commission on Presidential Debates adopts official Trump campaign line, says moderators shouldn't fact-check
posted by melissasaurus at 9:45 AM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump campaign: Nuh-uh! We baited them!

Looks as if quite a few took the bait: like, for instance, the UK's grauniad
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:46 AM on September 25, 2016

Hoping that Hillz has a moment half as great as this on Monday.
posted by pxe2000 at 9:53 AM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

TRUMP: "I am not Donald Trump, I am pop star Taylor Swift"

MODERATOR: "Thank you, Mr. Swift. Secretary Clinton, a response?"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:02 AM on September 25, 2016 [38 favorites]

That long Miami Herald piece on Trump as Florida Man has a lot of substance that hasn't really made it into general :

Trump — who former airport officials say used to fly in and out of Palm Beach on the noisiest plane on the airfield, and who once had his 727 impounded for failure to pay a noise fee — has by all accounts an almost irrational hatred of airplane noise. And because Mar-a-Lago sits directly in the path of planes taking off from Palm Beach International Airport, airplane noise is something he hears all the time.

It drives him crazy, former employees said.

Flies big plane to Florida mansion every weekend / complains about big planes flying by Florida mansion on weekends. Also: is racist, has done a few capricious good deeds, is physically repulsed by people with illnesses and disabilities.
posted by holgate at 10:17 AM on September 25, 2016 [20 favorites]

My last can't even has now been expended. I was holding on to it - evens are precious things to me... I didn't have that many to begin with...

So - I guess that means that Trump is also going to be the de facto moderator. If the de jure moderator takes a passive role it is going to be up to HC to be the "truth-squad" (like that's a bad thing to be???) and he gets to frame the entire "conversation" by forcing her to spend her time rebutting his CONSTANT STREAM OF LIES LIES LIES.

The passive, toady, bullshit, softball treatment this monster is getting is disgusting. So...

To The Press:
I. Can't. Even.
posted by Golem XIV at 10:19 AM on September 25, 2016 [21 favorites]

TRUMP: "I am not Donald Trump, I am pop star Taylor Swift"

MODERATOR: "Thank you, Mr. Swift. Secretary Clinton, a response?"


More like:
MODERATOR: "Thank you, Ms. Swift. Secretary Clinton, your opponent has won 10 Grammy awards and sold over 40 million albums; you, apparently can't even operate an email server. Your foundation has been accused of engaging pay to play, and some say your campaign lacks substance, and that your recent health problems cast doubts about -"

SECRETARY CLINTON: "Is there a question?"

MODERATOR: "My question is about Monica Lewinsky."
posted by nubs at 10:22 AM on September 25, 2016 [98 favorites]

Donald Trump: 'I Hope' Trump Foundation Hasn't Broken Any Laws

"Trump was asked directly by Full Measure host Sharyl Atkinson if he was "confident that the Trump Foundation has followed all charitable rules and laws," and he demurred, insisting that his attorneys have control over the operation.

"Well, I hope so, I mean, my lawyers do it," Trump said. "We give away money, I don't make anything, I take no salaries, I take no — any costs, I have zero costs, and a lot of money goes through the Trump Foundation into charities. Goes to charities, it doesn't go to me, it goes to charities."

The Foundation, however, lists only five officers on its IRS forms, and no attorney. Those officers include Trump, his three eldest children, and a treasurer, Alan Weisselberg, who also serves as CFO of the Trump Organization."
posted by chris24 at 10:32 AM on September 25, 2016 [14 favorites]

From earlier in the thread: "They're both terrible!" is the sort of thoughtless cliche that people who like to think they are more sophisticated than the average bear will say. ... They think it makes them mature and insightful observers of the system unlike those pitiable folks who think their vote actually, you know, matters. But it's actually an incredibly immature viewpoint.

I think people who say, "They're both terrible" may well mean "This system is fucked," which is a fair statement in my experience. It's easy enough to deride the maturity of folks with differing opinions. But how helpful is it? Someone upthread linked to a Nation article that points out an uncomfortable truth: "The confusion and hollowness of both political parties has not been a secret. Citizens left, right, and center have been giving up on electoral politics and the two-party system for decades. The nation’s largest political party is the 'don’t bother' party—roughly half of the adult population who see no reason to vote, and nothing in it for them. Instead of scolding them, an active political party might look into the cause-and-effect of dysfunctional democracy and try to change it."

I am a life-long, progressive Democrat. My party and my candidate are far more democratically minded than the opposition. But are they democratically minded enough? For this election, yes. For the future, no. We can't just dismiss or ignore those folks. We have to overturn Citizens United etc. After we win this election. For too many of us, electing Hillary will be the equivalent of dodging a bullet rather than improving our current health. That is not a critique of Hillary, that's merely acknowledging that our political system ignores the pain and needs of way too many citizens.

And now I'm going to find out if I can do some phone banking for Hillary tomorrow. I took the day off so I could watch the debate. I'm genuinely convinced that Hillary may well become the best president this nation has ever had if we can get her into office. And that still won't be enough to save our collective asses unless we can overturn Citizens United and get public funding into place. You know, IMHO.
posted by Bella Donna at 10:33 AM on September 25, 2016 [18 favorites]

Mother Jones: The Fear-Hate-Anger Click Machine: What do you do in that situation? You reach for what works—and fear, hate, and anger work incredibly well. Publish something that appeals to any of the three and it's instant gratification: People will click on that headline, share that post. So you do it again, and you try to learn how to do it more effectively. It's a pretty straight-up Pavlovian mechanism, and there's no one seeking an audience on the internet—ourselves included—who has not felt its pull.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:33 AM on September 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

"We give away money, I don't make anything, I take no salaries, I take no — any costs, I have zero costs, and a lot of money goes through the Trump Foundation into charities. Goes to charities, it doesn't go to me, it goes to charities."

Jeez, could he doth protest any too mucher?
posted by Sys Rq at 11:30 AM on September 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's too early to say for sure, but it seems like this whole Gennifer Flowers thing could in the end, hurt Trump with his base. If he'd done it it would've hurt him with lots of fence-sitters, true, but it seems like the entire dialogue is a pretty easily-read one in the dominance politics which are basically the only game Donald Trump has ever played: "Well maybe I should just do thing X, then!" "OK, bring it." "Oh, just fooling." From the playground to the boardroom, backing down from an accepted challenge always, always makes bullies lose face.
posted by jackbishop at 11:31 AM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think the only people paying attention at the level of Twitter baiting are diehards or journalists.

It will bother him though.

>:)
posted by schadenfrau at 11:42 AM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

Nothing will hurt him with his base. Being an agent of Putin hasn't hurt him, so nothing will.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:50 AM on September 25, 2016 [13 favorites]

Nick Kristoff NY Times Op-Ed: How to Cover a Charlatan Like Trump

Frankly, we should be discomfited that many Americans have absorbed the idea that Hillary Clinton is less honest than Donald Trump, giving Trump an edge in polls of trustworthiness.

Hello? There is no comparison.

Now if only the Times Opinion section had influence over the news section...
posted by Surely This at 12:37 PM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump wins again: The head of the Commission on Presidential Debates has some advice for debate moderators this fall: leave the fact-checking to the candidates.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:42 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

From that link:

Trump campaign aides have staked out a similar position. Some of them say a pro-fact-checking stance is really an anti-Trump stance.

So that's an outright concession that their candidate intends to lie, isn't it? That seems like a good story for a journalist to follow up on.
posted by contraption at 12:54 PM on September 25, 2016 [52 favorites]

Oh good, a literal "he said/she said debate."
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:54 PM on September 25, 2016 [9 favorites]

leave the fact-checking to the candidates.

This year, lazy "objectivity" and he-said/she-said coverage is turning into US Journalism's Maginot Line. Trump's trying to Gish Gallop lie himself into the White House, and the media is flummoxed that he's not playing by the established rules.
posted by tclark at 12:57 PM on September 25, 2016 [13 favorites]

I just got a promoted tweet reminding me to vote early in Iowa and telling me how to do it. It was some celebrity, and I was like "who is that, she looks familiar," and then I realized that it's Ivanka Trump, and the promoted tweet was from the Trump campaign. That's some *super effective* Twitter targeting you guys are doing there, Trump campaign. The fact that I follow pretty much every official and unofficial Iowa Democratic Twitter account is a sure sign that you want to convince me to vote early.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:01 PM on September 25, 2016 [14 favorites]

"We give away money, I don't make anything, I take no salaries, I take no — any costs, I have zero costs, and a lot of money goes through the Trump Foundation into charities. Goes to charities, it doesn't go to me, it goes to charities."

A private foundation like Trump's has literally zero costs to operate. It doesn't run any charitable programs. It just takes in donations as checks and then writes out checks as donations to charities.

You can see his 2014 Form 990 here.

He lists the directors as Donald, Donald Jr., Eric, Ivanka and his treasurer Allen Weisselberg. Each are listed as nominally working one-half hour per week for the foundation, although I would guess the real time is closer to zero.

In 2014, the foundation had two donations, neither of which are Donald Trump. Trump has not personally contributed any money to his own foundation since 2008.

The first donation is $20,000 from Prestige Mills, a carpet wholesaler. If I had to guess, I would say this is probably a "legal" kickback from a contractor for one of his hotels or resorts.

The second donation of $477,400 is from Richard Ebers of Inside Sports and Entertainment. This company arranges entertainment packages for corporations and individuals to attend events like the U.S. Tennis Open, golf's Masters and the Super Bowl. If I had to guess, I would say this a probably a "legal" kickback for funneling high rollers into Trump's hotels, resorts and casinos. The dollar amount is a peculiarly specific number, rather than a round number, making me think it is a percentage of some larger business transaction.

As for spending, Trump wrote 50 checks to various charities such as $1000 to Salvation Army, $1000 to St. Francis Food Pantry, and $15,000 to Ronald McDonald House. Other checks include $15,000 to the NY Police Athletic League, $10,000 to the New York Jets Foundation, and $5000 to the Fashion Footwear Charitable Foundation (Ivanka's influence?).

The biggest check Trump wrote by far was $100,000 to the Citizens United Foundation, the same folks whose lawsuit overturned the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law. Citizens United at the time was suing the New York attorney general regarding financial disclosures for charities. It so happened that the New York attorney general was at the same time investigating Trump University so the donation to help out Citizens United seems to be just a way of Trump harassing his enemy the attorney general.

So Trump is right that there are no costs to his foundation. That's because it doesn't do anything. In 2014 Trump had to deposit two donor checks and write out 50 donation checks, about one check a week. That's it for the total activities of his foundation.

On the other hand, Trump is lying when he says "it doesn't go to me." As Farhenthold at the WaPo has documented, Trump has used hundreds of thousands of dollars of foundation money to pay off legal issues related to his businesses.
posted by JackFlash at 1:15 PM on September 25, 2016 [36 favorites]

Other checks include $15,000 to the NY Police Athletic League

If I am not mistaken, this donation bought ad space in the program at their annual ball, which was then used to run an ad for a Trump hotel.
posted by PenDevil at 1:23 PM on September 25, 2016 [11 favorites]

Can we get a bar graph of those d'ohnations?
posted by petebest at 1:31 PM on September 25, 2016

If I am not mistaken, this donation bought ad space in the program at their annual ball, which was then used to run an ad for a Trump hotel.

If so, then that would be another example of illegal self-dealing from Trump's foundation to benefit his hotel. You can only deduct the portion of the donation that is above the fair market value of the service provided by the donation. In this case it would be the value of business advertising. Counting the entire donation as deductible through his foundation is illegal.
posted by JackFlash at 1:34 PM on September 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

In another episode, House Democrats earlier this month asked the Justice Department to investigate a $25,000 donation the Trump foundation made in 2013 to the reelection campaign of Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi, whose office at the time was considering whether to start a fraud probe of Trump University, his defunct, for-profit real estate school.

Federal law bars foundations from donating to political campaigns or candidates. Aides to Trump have blamed the donation to Bondi on clerical errors, while Trump, 70, who has said there was no wrongdoing, paid a $2,500 penalty earlier this year and reimbursed the foundation from his personal account.

Hicks, in an email, called any allegations of wrongdoing tied to Bondi a “false mischaracterization” that “disregards the facts.”

Well thats settled then.
posted by petebest at 1:36 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

That's some *super effective* Twitter targeting you guys are doing there, Trump campaign.

C'mon, Giles-Parscale can't be getting paid $10m a month to piss it down a well--oh.
posted by holgate at 1:36 PM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

50 checks to various charities such as $1000 to Salvation Army, $1000 to St. Francis Food Pantry, and $15,000 to Ronald McDonald House. Other checks include $15,000 to the NY Police Athletic League

So you're saying that the bulk of the Trump Foundation's charitable activities were along the lines of what a somewhat prosperous used car dealer might contribute?

Pretty sure my boss, a small time TV writer, has contributed more to the Salvation Army and local food bank this year than the Trump Foundation did in 2014.
posted by Sara C. at 1:37 PM on September 25, 2016 [16 favorites]

Wait, "Neh-vah-da" isn't an accepted pronunciation?
posted by petebest at 1:44 PM on September 25, 2016

Nope. It's always a short A, and Nevadans (*raises hand*) get rustly when people say it wrong.
posted by stolyarova at 1:47 PM on September 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

Why Donald Trump Should Not Be President

Here's the follow-up Trump editorial promised in the Times endorsement.
posted by Surely This at 1:49 PM on September 25, 2016 [11 favorites]

@juddlegum: Politico says Hillary is lying about impact of Trump's estate tax plan on himself because she uses Trump's own estimate of his net worth!

Yep, #3 on Politico's list of Clinton lies this week is:

"3. Trump’s “economic plans would ... include an estimated $4 billion tax cut for his own family just by eliminating the estate tax.” (the New York Times, Sept. 21)

The accuracy of Clinton’s claim depends on Trump’s net worth — a matter of dispute. Trump has claimed he's worth $10 billion. If so, the Wall Street Journal reports that applying a 40 percent estate tax rate (which applies to wealth above $10.9 million), Trump would have to pay about $4 billion in the estate tax. Analyses by Bloomberg News and other organizations, however, pegged Trump’s net worth closer to $3 billion, meaning his estate tax payment would be closer to $1.2 billion.

The Clinton campaign responded: “If Donald Trump admits he is lying about his net worth we will happily revise the estimate down.”
posted by chris24 at 1:51 PM on September 25, 2016 [80 favorites]

Why Donald Trump Should Not Be President

...despite our best attempts to help him.

The difference between the editorial/opinion side and the NYT news desk is out of control.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:01 PM on September 25, 2016 [14 favorites]

(Glad to know the correct way to say it. Thanks!)

Via Gennifer Flowers' twitter, i was reading a NY Post article (sorry) wherein it is written - on whatever it is they write on up there -
The mogul has skipped reading policy briefings, eschewed mock debates, and turned away two GOP operatives who offered to help prep him for free, said three sources close to the campaign.

But Trump sees the lack of prep as a strength, allowing him to bring spontaneity into the debate and making him more “unpredictable,” a source said.

But he has been receiving advice from top advisers, like former Mayor Rudy Giuliani, who feeds him potential questions on his campaign plane flights, a source said.

Trump “thinks all he has to do is get four good sound bites and two big hits on her and the public doesn’t care about anything else,” a source said.

But the really fascinating part was the recap of Flowers' news story. It was all about a candidate lying.
posted by petebest at 2:02 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Nick Confessore, who wrote the NYT piece on Clinton/Goldman today, is a bit defensive on Twitter.

"Trump is a different kind of candidate who requires a different kind of coverage" now shifting to "how can you write about Clinton at all?"

His straw man argument didn't go down well and his replies are filled with journalists calling him out. His tweets after that haven't gone much better.
posted by chris24 at 2:06 PM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

Politico also rates Clinton as a liar for saying that Trump is a candidate who incites hatred and violence like we’ve never seen before. Politico declares that George Wallace was more hateful than Trump -- so take that you liar.

Politico just sucks. Oh, and by the way, their email explanation in the article is also factually wrong.
posted by JackFlash at 2:07 PM on September 25, 2016 [16 favorites]

That list of Clinton lies is...deplorable. Among them:

#2: the article acknowledges that PolitiFact says Clinton's health release is comparable to Romney's and Obama's and then she released more details. You can argue that either candidate should release more, you can always argue for more, but that's different from saying she lied.

#3: As noted above, this is accusing Clinton of lying about Trump's net worth because she used his own number. Sad.

#5: This is a book review, not a statement of an untrue fact. It also ignores all the policy papers on Clinton's website. The fact that Congress may try to block her policies does not mean she is lying.

#6-7: Apparently Politico wants to pretend that a 30 second "yeah he was born in the US" undoes years worth of racist conspiracy-mongering, especially when that statement was followed by a "yeah I just said that to get on with it."

#8: Claims Hillary lied because George Wallace or Andrew Jackson may have been ridiculously horrible people while Trump is merely horrible.

Which leaves only #4, where the worst you can say is that some listeners could interpret that statement to mean that a single policy tweak would magically produce affordable housing for all, while most sensible people would understand it would simply help address the problem, and #1, which is about her goddamn emails again.
posted by zachlipton at 2:08 PM on September 25, 2016 [13 favorites]

Wow, Nick Confessore is a mess.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:10 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

Bingo cards here, getcha Presidential debate bingo cards here...
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:10 PM on September 25, 2016 [12 favorites]

Politico: Trashing Clinton in tenuous ways because we're tired of being called a left-wing rag by Breitbart.
posted by Talez at 2:11 PM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

politico is sick
posted by mumimor at 2:12 PM on September 25, 2016

Bingo cards here, getcha Presidential debate bingo cards here...
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:10 PM on September 25
[1 favorite +] [!]

Ha, awesome. I'll be making bingo cards using this list of Trump's most likely lies.
posted by marshmallow peep at 2:16 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

TPM: The Great "Is It Really Close?" Debate

The 2012 vs 2016 poll charts are interesting.
posted by chris24 at 2:24 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Those Bingo cards are brilliant. #NextPost
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:26 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

NYT Why Donald Trump Should not be President
posted by hilaryjade at 2:50 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Nick Confessore appears to be pouting to the effect that no one can write an article critical of Clinton without being hassled in the Twitterdome. He's completely ignoring the timing, research, and context of his front page story as the basis of said hassling.

Says the complaints are "Trumpian". Ooooookay then.
posted by petebest at 2:52 PM on September 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

From the NYT article:
Whatever his gyrations, Mr. Trump always does make clear where his heart lies — with the anti-immigrant, nativist and racist signals that he scurrilously employed to build his base.
posted by hilaryjade at 2:54 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Scurrilous!
posted by paper chromatographologist at 2:57 PM on September 25, 2016

I know dissing the New York Times is all the rage here, but their endorsement of Clinton yesterday, and their dismissal of Trump today leaves no doubt on where they stand. I'm a subscriber, and while it bothered me when they reported yet again on the email controversy and the Clinton Foundation, they have published far more negative stories on Trump. I don't think it's fair to paint them as "in the bag for Trump."
posted by monospace at 3:03 PM on September 25, 2016 [9 favorites]

And in the comments (yes I know we should not read comments) is this gem:
It has been gratifying to read the last two editorials written by the Times regarding Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. Unfortunately, the NYT could not have come up with these opinions based on the reporting in their own newspaper which has been filled with fall equivalencies regarding Clinton versus Trump.
The Times has led the way in convincing Americans that Hillary Clinton is less honest and more untrustworthy than Donald Trump. Let's let the readers' advocate at the paper answer this question, "How is it that so many Americans have been led to believe that Donald Trump is more honest and trustworthy than Hillary Clinton? Has the NYT had anything to do with this sad fact?
posted by hilaryjade at 3:06 PM on September 25, 2016 [36 favorites]

I feel like the NYT is running late in taking the threat of a Trump presidency seriously. I feel like much of the media has been late (and this, of course, is ground well covered in these threads). But I do also agree with monospace - I don't feel they have shown egregious bias.

The compare & contrast, let-the-public decide approach for politics is broken. Media needs to start calling out falsehoods & charlatans, and slowly, they have.

But they should have been doing so much more aggressively, and much sooner. Trump should have never become a viable candidate, and I feel he has dragged the national conversation down to a low I hope to never see again.
posted by hilaryjade at 3:27 PM on September 25, 2016 [22 favorites]

I don't think it's fair to paint them as "in the bag for Trump."

There is a huge gulf between their editorial page and their news page. And sadly, way more people read page 1 than the Opinion page. The news desk has always been hostile to the Clintons. Let's not forget that the Times started the bullshit Whitewater story, started the bullshit email story that they basically had to apologize for, got called out by their own columnist, and has a an obsession with insinuation in the absence of any actual evidence.

So not in the bag for Trump, but certainly fairly antagonistic to Clinton.
posted by chris24 at 3:45 PM on September 25, 2016 [15 favorites]

Not so much "in the baggies trump" as "massively useless at their jobs". All that's lazy false equivalency, attemps at balance by emphasizing nothingburgers and a fundamental failure to follow up on pretty anything leaves a void which favours him.
posted by Artw at 3:53 PM on September 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

Kellyanne Conway just criticized Obama’s response to Trump claims about black Americans:

STEPHANOPOULOS: So are African American communities really in the worst shape they've ever been?

CONWAY: Seems to me that everything that Donald Trump is saying and it's too bad that the president is so glib about these issues. But Donald Trump —

STEPHANOPOULOS: The president's glib about race issues?

CONWAY: No, no, no, he was very — he — no, George, he was just very glib about what the — you know, calling — referring to an 8-year old. What Donald Trump is talking about in his speeches is bringing — is rebuilding the inner cities, is bringing more jobs there, is tackling full-on poverty and joblessness and homelessness in the inner cities and crime.

posted by kirkaracha at 3:55 PM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

Oh please. Sit down.
posted by cashman at 4:00 PM on September 25, 2016 [9 favorites]

Maria Bamford is doing her part:

@mariabamfoo Hey! I may be calling you if you live in Oklahoma! http://www.hillaryclinton.com/calls I'm on my 9th call to Broken Arrow!
posted by LynnDee at 4:08 PM on September 25, 2016 [24 favorites]

I can't get over the fact that Trump surrogates are arguing that journalism shouldn't exist, to journalists, and no one is laughing at them or screaming in horror.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:12 PM on September 25, 2016 [33 favorites]

I mean, given my experience with journalists a lot of them hate journalists too, so maybe it's speaking to them on a spiritual level
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 4:13 PM on September 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

A weird fetish for demonizing the Clintons for doing things that absolutely every other politician in Washington does (many of them neither criminal nor unusual things) is like the lurking immune deficiency in the cells of the NY Times. It weakens their reporting and makes it easy for opportunistic viruses like Trump to run rampant.

You could say something similar about how the desire to oppose everything that the Democrats want, no matter how much it also hurts them to do so, infects and weakens the Republican party. Here, the Tea Party was the first wave of sickness, softening them up, then came Trump, like political dysentery, forcing them to spew out all that had remained hidden.
posted by emjaybee at 4:14 PM on September 25, 2016 [14 favorites]

I can't get over the fact that Trump surrogates are arguing that journalism shouldn't exist, to journalists, and no one is laughing at them or screaming in horror.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:12 PM on September 25 [2 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

I am doing the latter. Seemingly into the void.
posted by Golem XIV at 4:18 PM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

No Fortune 100 CEOs Back Republican Donald Trump:

No chief executive at the nation’s 100 largest companies had donated to Republican Donald Trump’s presidential campaign through August, a sharp reversal from 2012, when nearly a third of the CEOs of Fortune 100 companies supported GOP nominee Mitt Romney.

posted by kirkaracha at 4:28 PM on September 25, 2016 [28 favorites]

In defense of those critics the other politicians are able to hide these traits behind a penis.
posted by humanfont at 4:37 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

@mariabamfoo Hey! I may be calling you if you live in Oklahoma! http://www.hillaryclinton.com/calls I'm on my 9th call to Broken Arrow!

Why does the campaign have her calling Oklahoma? That's one of the top 10 reddest states in the union.

I hope it's trying to rustle up more Democrats to volunteer calling because votes there are a lost cause.
posted by Talez at 4:38 PM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'd move to OK just to get a call from Maria Bamford so maybe that's their strategy.
posted by dis_integration at 4:45 PM on September 25, 2016 [14 favorites]

Civil Rights Museum Denies "Special Request" by Trump Campain

Jones says the Trump campaign was aggressive and rude to museum staff in making their request.
He says Trump's people wanted the museum to be closed for at least 5 hours to accommodate Trump.

Jones says the museum does not provide special treatment to anyone and says that is the main reason they denied the request.

He said he also didn't feel like the request was sincere.

"The approach, the type of disrespect, pretty much a demand and bullying us to use the museum in their manner and their way in their time, it was inappropriate and I think it's probably reflective of the type of insensitivity of civil rights and human rights that's reflective from Trump over the years," said Jones.

5 hours! What the hell were they planning to do for 5 hours? My guess is that they wanted the museum available (and empty) for whenever Trump & Co got around to fitting it into their schedule.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:47 PM on September 25, 2016 [27 favorites]

Why does the campaign have her calling Oklahoma?

Either to help downticket Democrats, or maybe to trick Trump into wasting time there?
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:47 PM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

She won't win it, no, but every bit helps. I have a friend from Broken Arrow who's still on the fence ("Fine. I'll vote for her" (in his rational moments) or "Never! I won't do it!" (when he's feeling fighty)). A call from Maria Bamford would seal that deal like Gorilla Glue.
posted by downtohisturtles at 4:48 PM on September 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

but every bit helps

Not in the electoral college.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 4:51 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

TFW, having read the entire thread and finally getting to the bottom where the discussion is about something covered several times above by MeFites who've done calling on behalf of Clinton a bunch: Most of the calls are indeed focused on recruiting volunteers.

I bet it's super nice to get a recruitment "Yes, you can help!" phone call if you're a Democrat in a deep red state.
posted by carsonb at 4:55 PM on September 25, 2016 [10 favorites]

I'd vote for a paper clip if Maria Bamford told me to.
posted by ian1977 at 4:58 PM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

In Trump's defense, they needed five hours to turn back all of the clocks on Civil Rights.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 4:59 PM on September 25, 2016 [17 favorites]

Civil Rights Museum Denies "Special Request" by Trump Campain

I'm sure the Trump camp was a pain to the museum staff, but I don't think that's what the headline is trying to communicate.
posted by zachlipton at 4:59 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

If I were on Trump's campaign staff — in other words, if I were so disconnected from reality as to believe that I were role-playing as an evil person in a mere simulation of human existence — I would use the first debate as an opportunity to spring some new and bizarre assertions.

Like, if Trump claims that he was against the Iraq war from the start, he's basically daring the moderator to speak up, since that's been the most litigated claim of the campaign. But if he gets away from the greatest hits, if he plays some of the deep album cuts or B-sides or tries out some new stuff, there's no way the moderator will be able to fact-check it in real time.

Hence I think the question isn't “should moderators fact-check the debaters?” because some moderators have done this in subtle ways in the past. If Trump tries to play the Iraq gambit, there's no universe in which Hillary doesn't hit back on it, and if she's really smart she'll lean on the moderator to acknowledge the discrepancy. That's less “fact-checking” and more “believing in a universe where facts exist.”

I think that's a fair thing to expect from a moderator. But to want more than that is to assume that they all possess encyclopedic knowledge, or that there is an army of fact-checkers who are going to yell into Lester Holt's earpiece when someone says something refutable.

I'm talking about claims obscure enough that nobody will be able to disprove it until the debate is over, or nuanced enough that they're halfway into the realm of opinion. When a GOP candidate claims that a tax cut will pay for itself by stimulating the economy, is that a "lie" just because it's never happened before? Or is it pandering, or hopeless optimism, or something less binary than that?

We keep wanting debates to be objective measurements of candidates' qualifications instead of the yo'-mama slapfights that they are. I think there's a decent chance that Trump will doom his campaign with something he does in one of the debates, but it won't be because he got caught contradicting some shit that he said in 2006. It'll be because he insults millions of people, or starts talking obvious nonsense, or otherwise reveals himself to be even more unhinged than we thought. And even then he'll get at least 175 EVs, because reality is so much weirder than I had ever imagined.
posted by savetheclocktower at 4:59 PM on September 25, 2016 [10 favorites]

Great, more than 24 hours until the debate and I already have nervous diarrhea. This has been a fun year.
posted by infinitywaltz at 5:01 PM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

They're already pre-spinning the debate for Trump on CNN. The talking heads say they think Trump will do better than expected and dial himself back a little and that could be a big problem for Clinton.

Thanks, CNN.
posted by Justinian at 5:06 PM on September 25, 2016 [10 favorites]

I'm either going to go to an official watch party at a bar (other Democrats! booze!) or skip the debate altogether (calm! not feeling like I'm going to puke with dread!). I can't decide which option will be better for my emotional wellbeing.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:09 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Any other St Louis Mefis thinking about heading to The Royale tomorrow night? PM me if so!
posted by bird internet at 5:18 PM on September 25, 2016

Jones says the Trump campaign was aggressive and rude to museum staff in making their request.

So much for that great relationship with The Blacks.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:18 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Can the moderators just ask questions that 'pre-fact check'?

Like....'Mr Trump, you said xyz, which is a known falsehood. With that in mind, how do you now answer the question of blank?'
posted by ian1977 at 5:18 PM on September 25, 2016 [20 favorites]

I don't think it's fair to paint them as "in the bag for Trump."

I do.

The real world effect of the NYT screaming "EMAIL EMAILS EMAILS SHADOWS EMAILS AND SCANDAL EMAILS" while waiting days or weeks to report on Trump's dealings with Russia, conflicts of interest, or the racist comment of the day is to paint Clinton as bad or worse than Trump, when that's patently rediculous on it's face. The NYT has done that throughout the cycle, and they have to be fully aware of what theyre doing, because it's obviously a concerned effort being directed by someone, the news editors if not the opinion page. That's in the bag for Trump, and actively working to get him elected, while claiming deniability with a worthless Clinton endorsement late in the cycle after the damage has been done.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:31 PM on September 25, 2016 [27 favorites]

if he plays some of the deep album cuts or B-sides or tries out some new stuff, there's no way the moderator will be able to fact-check it in real time.

Unless he's watching MeFi chat!

MeFi chat: For the Good Times™
posted by petebest at 5:36 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

There is a huge gulf between their editorial page and their news page.

I've been wondering if part of it is a generational gap. The opinion writers are old enough to remember the witch hunts and nothingburgers of the first Clinton administration but the news desk is young enough to be an extension of Hillary's supposed "millennial problem" where they have spent their formative years seeing her vilified but never learned it all smoke and no fire.
posted by peeedro at 5:52 PM on September 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

In the last ABC / WaPo poll Trump leads Clinton among white dudes without a college degree by 59 points. 59 points. (79-17). I know it would be wrong to start lumping all white dudes without a college degree into the deplorable racist pile, so I will not, but 80% is a very high number.
posted by Justinian at 5:54 PM on September 25, 2016 [44 favorites]

I mean, I managed to figure it out, and I'm just a snake person without the advantage of investigative journalism skills .
posted by schadenfrau at 5:57 PM on September 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

I'm cynical enough to believe that they want Clinton to win but are also business oriented enough to want to attract clicks and sales by promoting hate, fear and panic.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:59 PM on September 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

In the last ABC / WaPo poll Trump leads Clinton among white dudes without a college degree by 59 points.

Stay in school, kids!

(***The More You Know***)///
posted by rodeoclown at 6:02 PM on September 25, 2016 [12 favorites]

If the Hillary Clinton campaign has the resources, and volunteers, to call people in Oklahoma, then they should. Keep in mind a lot of volunteers want to act in particular areas (usually their own state). There are surely some democrats on ballots there who have a chance of winning, even if Clinton does not.

Speaking of which, I'm again doing data entry in the Seattle office after nearly two weeks off (between travel and work, etc.) I'm pretty glad to be here even if I'm seeing real live Trump voters in call logs I'm entering (and after seeing live Trump-Pence signs out in the country today). And tomorrow is the first debate and we'll all be out at an event which will be fun. :)
posted by R343L at 6:04 PM on September 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm cynical enough to believe that they want to promote hate, fear and panic because they're lazy, jaded, incurious f*#kheads who wouldn't have to do as much work in Donny's world.

Look out the window = headline!

Virtuous Mob Cleanses City,
Trump Defends Selling Air Force One to China, "I Personally Made A Ton of Money", that kind of thing.
posted by petebest at 6:06 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

In the last ABC / WaPo poll Trump leads Clinton among white dudes without a college degree by 59 points. 59 points. (79-17). I know it would be wrong not to start lumping all white dudes without a college degree into the deplorable racist pile, so I will not, but 80% is a very high number.

I find these numbers mind boggling. I can't help but wonder if the same sort of numbers would show up, up here in Canada. Perhaps ignorance is bliss though.
posted by Jalliah at 6:07 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Speaking of which, I'm again doing data entry in the Seattle office after nearly two weeks off (between travel and work, etc.) I'm pretty glad to be here even if I'm seeing real live Trump voters in call logs I'm entering (and after seeing live Trump-Pence signs out in the country today). And tomorrow is the first debate and we'll all be out at an event which will be fun. :)

I've been doing New Hampshire and the number of Trump voters around Nashua and Merrimack is pretty depressing.
posted by Talez at 6:07 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

No chief executive at the nation’s 100 largest companies had donated to Republican Donald Trump’s presidential campaign through August
A feature, not a bug. Trump is the Enemy of Evil Big Business (actually, they just know he's a bigger crook than any of them and he's just insanely jealous of them).

They're already pre-spinning the debate for Trump on CNN.
That's bad news for Deplorable Donald. He needs to keep expectations low in order to outperform them.

I know it would be wrong not to start lumping all white dudes without a college degree into the deplorable racist pile,
Not deplorable racists, but certainly deplorable sexists... the He-Man Woman Haters Club.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:09 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hillary. Trump resist. Stay in school. Cause it's the best.
posted by angrycat at 6:10 PM on September 25, 2016 [9 favorites]

There was an extra NOT in my comment which rendered it non-sensical, and y'all are still quoting it. Noooo.
posted by Justinian at 6:10 PM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

Media Critic Jay Rosen: Asymmetry between the major parties fries the circuits of the mainstream press (and five other ideas I use to interpret campaign coverage this year)
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:18 PM on September 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

*stops lumping*

Wait, so I should lump white dudes with no college or not white college dude lumping?

Okay that - that doesn't sound right, can we get a check on that?
posted by petebest at 6:19 PM on September 25, 2016

I know it would be wrong to start lumping all white dudes without a college degree into the deplorable racist pile, so I will not, but 80% is a very high number.

My husband is a white dude without a college degree. He's all in for Clinton, but I think he would agree with their polling. In general, I think that if you're a straight white dude who never went to college and doesn't see "college" in general as something achievable for anyone in your family, not much about Clinton's message resonates with you.

Also, as a field report, the Press Herald reported today that Maine District II is basically a lock for Trump, and my trip into the wilds of District II would bear that out. Lots and lots of Trump signs in small towns like Palermo and Unity, and no signs (we actively looked on the way back) for either Clinton or the DII Congressional candidate Emily Cain. Also no visible presence that I found (although maybe it was there) at our destination, Common Ground Country Fair, which is a fair based on Organic Gardening and a back-to-nature lifestyle. Lots of Bernie Stickers in the parking lot, along with a smattering of Johnson, but we didn't even see more than a smattering of Clinton stickers in this parking lot full of cars that should certainly be all in for her.

I can only see this as a miss on the part of the Maine Dems, since I sincerely believe that getting some visible support out could embolden some folks who are supporting more quietly.
posted by anastasiav at 6:23 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm a white dude without a degree. I apologize for my people. I don't understand it either.
posted by ctmf at 6:23 PM on September 25, 2016 [22 favorites]

#NotAllWhiteDudesWithoutDegrees

#Sigh
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:26 PM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

My fiancé is a white Baby Boomer without a degree. Many, many white men his age don't have degrees because they were drafted, or had to work. Doesn't mean they are crazy, and it doesn't mean they would ever seriously consider voting for Trump.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:28 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

So, um, it looks like I'm not the only Iowa Hillary supporter who's been getting Trump's GOTV promoted tweet.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:36 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump Flies With Gold-Plated Bathroom Fixtures, and You’re Paying Millions for It:

The bombastic businessman has often bragged about the comforts of his ride, with its full bedroom, shower and 24-karat gold-plated bathroom fixtures. But because it seats so few passengers, Trump’s Secret Service agents appear to make up more than half of the plane’s flight manifests. And that means taxpayers are now legally required to pick up the majority of its staggering running costs.
...
Politico, which first reported these payments, put the total the Secret Service paid to the Trump campaign at $1.6 million. But a closer look at campaign finance filings shows that the U.S. Secret Service covered more than $2.3 million of the $3.8 million Trump’s campaign has paid Tag Air in 2016.
...
And as pricey as his plane is to fly, he makes his travel even more expensive by insisting on returning to New York City at the end of each day so he can sleep in his own bed in Trump Tower’s penthouse. Flying home, rather than overnighting in the next city on the campaign schedule, typically adds three to four hours of flying time per day, translating to $27,000 to $36,000 per day in higher flight costs.

Trump's 757

...could carry as many as 228 passengers if it were filled with economy seats, but there's nothing "economy" about this plane.

Trump's 757 is designed to carry 43 passengers secured with 24 caret gold plated seat belts, according to a video tour of the aircraft his company posted in 2011. It features a dining room, big screen TVs, a master and a guest bedroom and even a shower.

posted by kirkaracha at 6:41 PM on September 25, 2016 [14 favorites]

> I can't help but wonder if the same sort of numbers would show up, up here in Canada. Perhaps ignorance is bliss though. _Jalliah

<shudder> Maybe that might have been the reasoning behind the Libs going with Trudeau instead of Joyce Murray - avoid losing, again, against the Cons only this time via the misogyny vote and instead grabbed the millennial segment with Trudeau.

It wouldn't have erupted from dogwhistle to bullhorn, so it would have been harder business as usual.

We did briefly have a female Prime Minister in Kim Campbell. I recall being kinda sorta impressed by it in the middle of highschool but also thought that it was more of a pro tem thing and not a big deal other than as a bit of token-ism. There was probably a ton of sexism thrown around, but I wasn't sophisticated enough to notice/care/call-out. Anyone more "woke" during that time care to draw any comparisons with the current situation?

Huh, reading between the lines of wikipedia, yeah, she lost largely due to the combination of the situation of her being PM and her being a woman. One of the dominos leading to the Cons taking charge, and then the Cons being taken over by the Reform, culminating with the recent Lib overthrow.
posted by porpoise at 6:48 PM on September 25, 2016

Trump Flies With Gold-Plated Bathroom Fixtures, and You’re Paying Millions for It:

I take small comfort in knowing that even in a $100 million aircraft, the idiots that wired up the TV didn't get the aspect ratio settings correct.
posted by Talez at 6:49 PM on September 25, 2016 [13 favorites]

Gold plated? Trashy. Solid gold or nothing.
posted by ian1977 at 6:53 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

the idiots that wired up the TV didn't get the aspect ratio settings correct.
As long as the error makes Donnie look thinner, it's more than acceptable,
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:54 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Most politicians are at least a little dishonest, but very few of them are dishonest in quite the same way as Donald Trump.
posted by Artw at 6:57 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

because it seats so few passengers, Trump’s Secret Service agents appear to make up more than half of the plane’s flight manifests. And that means taxpayers are now legally required to pick up the majority of its staggering running costs.

Seriously, the man is a genius at what he does. Everything he does nets him a percentage.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:58 PM on September 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

As long as the error makes Donnie look thinner, it's more than acceptable,

The error makes everyone look fatter so same diff I guess.
posted by Talez at 6:58 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, Trump literally boasted that he could make a profit out of running for President. He had things like this in mind all along.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:58 PM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

"Flying home, rather than overnighting in the next city on the campaign schedule, typically adds three to four hours of flying time per day, translating to $27,000 to $36,000 per day in higher flight costs. ... Trump's 757 ...could carry as many as 228 passengers if it were filled with economy seats, but there's nothing "economy" about this plane."

I swear to God when Blagojevich did this -- flew back home to Chicago every night rather than staying with the plebs in Springfield, on state planes at taxpayer expense -- people were WAY more furious about that than trying to sell the Senate seat. He even kicked everyone else off who wasn't in his entourage (normally any state employee with business in Chicago can grab an empty seat on a state plane that's flying anyway, exactly because it saves money). Two peas in a pod.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:07 PM on September 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

Yeah my husband is another white dude without a degree for Clinton. But he's a known anomaly and really neither of us is totally sure how he turned out as a non-racist feminist given his family and background. (He actually cut contact with his parents because he couldn't take any more extremely blatant racism.)
posted by threeturtles at 7:12 PM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

Gold plated? Trashy. Solid gold or nothing.

Trump's gotta Trump.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:12 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

> he turned out as a non-racist feminist given his family and background _threeturtles

I know another such man (really, in context, might be capitalized). Born and raised in Alabama, first person in his entire social circle to go to college (hard bioscience). Went to Sweden to do his postdoc. Stopped going home for holidays/reunions since all he got was shit for having gone off to college, much less gone to Sweden for a postdoc.

After trading his academic career for his wife's academic career (they met in Sweden, iirc, both non-locals, her not from North America), which was successful after at least 5 continental moves. He's now a dean-level admin guy at an ok university.

Can't imagine him voting Trump.
posted by porpoise at 7:21 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump's gotta Trump.

I thought it was "Trump's gotta Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump"?
posted by Talez at 7:24 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

I thought it was....

Let me see that trummmmmp....trumpa trumpa trump trump
posted by ian1977 at 7:30 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

TRUMP: Condolences to my opponent, who passed away hours ago
CLINTON: [glares impatiently at Lester Holt]
HOLT: Oh, I’m not a fact-checker
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:32 PM on September 25, 2016 [39 favorites]

I've been invited to a friend's house to watch the debate, which on the one hand there will be booze and food and strength in numbers, but on the other I think it's going to be a miserable slog that Trump will "win" because vast swathes of American society have apparently made it their life's work to prop up this awful human being at all costs and nothing is true.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:37 PM on September 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

My husband and I just made a pact to watch until we can stomach it no more and then promised ourselves not to feel guilty for screaming into our couch pillows in frustration and changing the channel. Hopefully we can last long enough to have a legitimate drink from our kickass shattered glass ceiling pint glasses.

no but guys really I'm so anxious I could puke
posted by lydhre at 7:54 PM on September 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

I don't really see what the big deal is w/r/t the Secret Service reimbursing Trump for the flight time. Yeah he owns the airline, but so what? Do they just let the airline make up a number for costs, or do they have a standard reimbursement rate? That article in Politico doesn't say, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do the latter.

I mean, for the Clinton campaign, they're just making some other, not-Clinton person wealthy when they're paying out even more in reimbursements for flight time. The very nature of our era of staggering campaign budgets assures that all kinds of people, from political consultants to the owners of media companies, are getting wealthy. If you object to the idea of capitalism and think that airlines should be run at cost, I'm right there with you, but I don't really think that's what the people in this thread are getting worked up over.
posted by indubitable at 8:02 PM on September 25, 2016

I don't think I'm going to watch. For one thing I literally can't stand to hear Trump speak. I mute him when he comes on the radio. His word salad drives me bonkers and then when he does say something of substance, it's a bald-faced lie that then no one calls him out on. I'll expect some curated YouTubez the next day. Please Lord grant me some looks like Hillz gave the Benghazi committee. I need those gifs in my life.

Keepin it 1600 will be doing a Facebook Live thingie before and the after. I'll follow along here with you all as my pinhole camera.

Somehow I just don't think the other side is, like, sobbing into their pillows and vomiting with anxiety. Must be nice.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:04 PM on September 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

God help me, I just said "You know, Bill Kristol may be on to something here."
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:05 PM on September 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

I don't really see what the big deal is w/r/t the Secret Service reimbursing Trump for the flight time. Yeah he owns the airline, but so what? Do they just let the airline make up a number for costs, or do they have a standard reimbursement rate? That article in Politico doesn't say, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do the latter.

That kind of hand waves away the actual issue. The issue is that he's routing a massive secret service payment straight to his pocket and that he's taking unnecessary travel.
posted by Talez at 8:06 PM on September 25, 2016 [12 favorites]

There's really no incentive for Trump not to fly back to New York. His campaign handles their portion, the secret service handles the other portion, Trump keeps the entire profit from the flights after crew, insurance and fuel.
posted by Talez at 8:08 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

It doesn't seem to be an unusually large amount of travel; the article points out that the Clinton campaign has received even more from the Secret Service to the tune of $2.6 million.
posted by indubitable at 8:08 PM on September 25, 2016

I won't have the option of watching the debate until midnight, so I'll be here following whatever y'all are posting, so by the time I have the option to watch it, I assume I'll know whether it was a shitshow or whether Clinton burned him alive for our enjoyment and will make my decision about watching based on that.

I DID buy avocados today, though, so guacamole is happening regardless.
posted by threeturtles at 8:09 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

The law says you can't make a profit from the campaign but it says nothing about routing everything through layers and webs of corporations to give reasonable doubt.
posted by Talez at 8:09 PM on September 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

the article points out that the Clinton campaign has received even more from the Secret Service to the tune of $2.6 million.

But it clarifies that that's for twice as much time.
posted by threeturtles at 8:10 PM on September 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

It doesn't seem to be an unusually large amount of travel; the article points out that the Clinton campaign has received even more from the Secret Service to the tune of $2.6 million.

The $2.3 million the Secret Service spent to fly with Trump is only slightly less than the $2.6 million the agency has paid to the campaign of Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton ― even though she has had the agency’s protection for twice as long as her Republican opponent.

posted by zakur at 8:12 PM on September 25, 2016 [25 favorites]

>Do they just let the airline make up a number for costs, or do they have a standard reimbursement rate?

From the HuffPo article: "FEC rules require that Secret Service agents pay a “pro-rata share of the travel” to the campaign. So if agents on any given leg make up three quarters of the passengers, the U.S. Government is required to pay three quarters of the cost to fly Trump’s luxury liner."
posted by shenderson at 8:15 PM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

I mean, for the Clinton campaign, they're just making some other, not-Clinton person wealthy when they're paying out even more in reimbursements for flight time.

1. Trump flies home every night to his gold-plated bed.
2. Trump puts the press in a separate plane, which is unprecedented in a modern campaign. (The press pay for the privilege.)
3. FFS, we already know that you like waving your hands so fast you can fly without a plane.
posted by holgate at 8:17 PM on September 25, 2016

*shrug* Trump would probably be wiser to spread his campaign largess around by chartering with a third party which will then owe him favors later. Splashing around that kind of money will buy you political allies. But we already know Trump is a selfish prick, so what he's doing is not surprising. I just don't see a moral difference between buying off the power elite and spending the money on yourself. They're both symptoms of a deeply corrupted campaign finance system.
posted by indubitable at 8:17 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

by chartering with a third party which will then owe him favors later.

Well, he's chartering additional planes with a company based in New Hampshire, so there you go.
posted by holgate at 8:22 PM on September 25, 2016

>*shrug* Trump would probably be wiser to spread his campaign largess around by chartering with a third party which will then owe him favors later.

OK, this response confuses me. It seems to boil down to "any time a campaign purchases goods or services, e.g. by chartering a plane, it is an act of corruption equivalent to self-dealing." It also seems to come with an implicit allegation that Clinton is simply chartering a plane as a way of currying favor with some politically influential plane-chartering company, rather than as a way of purchasing an indispensable service. That's ... not actually what you're saying, is it?
posted by shenderson at 8:24 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm saying that when presidential campaigns raise upwards of $1 billion in a campaign cycle, there are only so many ways in which that money can be spent, and the nature of our capitalist system means that a large portion of it will end up accumulating with relatively few people. Who those people are is not as important to me as the fact that this happens at all.
posted by indubitable at 8:30 PM on September 25, 2016

TRUMP: Condolences to my opponent, who passed away hours ago
CLINTON: [glares impatiently at Lester Holt]
HOLT: Oh, I’m not a fact-checker

CLINTON: How can I be dead, Donald, I'm standing right here!
TRUMP: It's obviously a body double. There's been all sorts of stories about her using that sort of thing since she passed.
CLINTON: LESTER?
HOLT: Oh, I’m not a fact-checker
posted by Talez at 8:38 PM on September 25, 2016 [11 favorites]

Clinton: how can I be dead I'm standing right here?
Trump: do you guys hear something? I don't hear anything. Spooky.
posted by ian1977 at 8:42 PM on September 25, 2016 [13 favorites]

I don't really see what the big deal is w/r/t the Secret Service reimbursing Trump for the flight time.

Because it's a scam that is stealing money from the people of the USA and corrupting the democratic process. No other campaign could afford to fly their candidate around in a luxury plane. No other campaign would fly their candidate around so much for so little purpose. No other campaign would kick all media personnel off the plane. But this is what Trump does:

1) Trump owns the plane, which has a fixed cost (leasing or interest, depreciation, etc.). The more it's used, the more that cost is amortised. Even if Trump broke even on the fuel and other variable costs, he'd still be making money on each flight.

2) But he doesn't just break even. By kicking the media off the plane it means that the secret service personnel are the majority of the people on board. Since the deal is that the US pays for flight costs pro-rata, the US pays for most of the cost of the flight.

3) Since Trump actually makes money when he flies, he flies the heck out of that plane, taking flights that make absolutely no sense in terms of campaigning or even personal efficiency. He's like some executive scumming frequent flier miles, except that his rewards are in cash.

So this is all just one big, giant scam, that personally enriches Trump and enables him to evade the scrutiny of the media. It's a disgusting abuse of process and of the good will of the United States.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:03 PM on September 25, 2016 [66 favorites]

Clinton: Doesn't matter. The constitution doesn't say you have to be alive to be president.
Trump: ...
Clinton: HA! You have no idea if I made that up or not!
posted by um at 9:14 PM on September 25, 2016 [42 favorites]

I've known some rich people who were frugal, but I have never met a genuinely rich person who would fly back and forth across the country to get the equivalent of frequent flyer miles, particularly when they have something else they could be doing. It tells me that the money is important to him, more important than actually campaigning. He's either scraping-the-barrel broke or he isn't even a little bit invested in winning.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:15 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

He's a chiseller. And he's a pathological chiseller. He cheats his suppliers and contractors because he can, because he lacks the basic humanity not to do it, and he's because built up the infrastructure (contracts, mob-style lawyers, a web of corporate entities) to facilitate it. Count your fucking spoons.
posted by holgate at 9:27 PM on September 25, 2016 [25 favorites]

Let's be clear: the standard modern American campaign is a grotesque redistribution of wealth from individual donors to WBFK-TV in the form of ads. Trump is unusual because he's redistributing it to his own businesses and cronies, whether it's Giles-Parscale or rent at Barad-Trump or on the planes or on other shit. He took five months to pay a $10k policing bill to a small NH town.

I'm only surprised that the networks and affiliates and cablenewsers haven't turned on Trump because he's spending fuck-all on TV ads. The bean counters expect beans from both sides, and Trump has not provided many beans.
posted by holgate at 9:35 PM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump has not provided many beans

It's the sharing economy.
posted by porpoise at 9:37 PM on September 25, 2016

It's also a testament to how TrumpOrg has spent a metric fucktonne more time working out how best to chisel maximum benefit from the campaign than to any fucking policy proposals.
posted by holgate at 9:42 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump was, until recently, providing content. (The birther announcement may have killed many media outlets' interest in covering his content for free.) And Hillary may have swooped in to buy those slots, so they're not out of money, just have an unbalanced number of ads between the two sides.

However, after the stuck-onna-plane fiasco, the no-reporters-allowed-on-tour fiasco, and a few other bits of hostility toward the media... Trump may discover that they don't, in fact, have an obligation to provide him with the amount and style of coverage he wants - that's what ads are for. And the media will be delighted to realize that the general public isn't going to turn off their TVs if they're insulting Trump instead of lauding him for being "unpredictable."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:46 PM on September 25, 2016

Trump demanded Secret Service protection back last November. Trump and Carson were the only Republican candidates demanding that. Not Jeb or Kasich or Fiorina or Rubio or Walker or Perry or Jindal or Paul or Christie. Even though Trump has lots of private security, once the Secret Service was involved, they began to subsidize his campaign travel in his private luxury 757. Trump knows how to work the system for his own profit.
posted by JackFlash at 9:46 PM on September 25, 2016 [14 favorites]

The con is on. The only policy proposal is self-enrichment and vanity pumping. God help us.
posted by dis_integration at 9:46 PM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

There was a theory circulating a few million years ago that Trump didn't actually want to be president. Does anyone still believe that?
posted by um at 9:51 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

He wants power, adulation and the chance to humiliate people. The presidency is a way to get those, so yes, he wants to be president.
posted by argybarg at 9:54 PM on September 25, 2016 [12 favorites]

I'm certain at any point of the campaign that he had lost he would have said " i really didn't want the job anyway" like any asshole, but now that he's this close there's no way he'd turn it down.
I bet he chuckles himself to sleep some nights wondering how this practical joke/con has gotten this far along.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:58 PM on September 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

He wants power, adulation and the chance to humiliate people. The presidency is a way to get those, so yes, he wants to be president.

Yep. Note that this is distinct from wishing to *govern*. He never wanted to do the *job* the President is hired to do. That's hard work. Hell, it aged *Dubya*, and that guy spent a huge portion of his time on vacation.

Trump just wants to run the country the way he runs his businesses: into the ground, while lining his pockets and laughing at everybody.
posted by mordax at 9:59 PM on September 25, 2016 [19 favorites]

It tells me that the money is important to him, more important than actually campaigning.

I'll revise there slightly. As Mark Cuban has said, actual billionaires don't really get involved in penny-ante informercial shit like steaks and vodka. So I think it's clear that he's tight and insecure about money. But: what's most important to Trump is walking away feeling that somebody has been ripped off and he's the beneficiary.

He wants to preside. He wants to get the presidential treatment. He wants deference. He doesn't want the job of being president. He wants to remake the presidency as an arbitrary monarchy where he can delegate whenever he's bored and rule as a divine-right monarch when he's bothered.
posted by holgate at 9:59 PM on September 25, 2016 [33 favorites]

At the age of 70, after all his scams and wheeling-dealing, winning the presidency will provide him the only way he can make a big enough score to become as rich as he believes he should be. I previously recommended if he wins you should take all your money out of banks and stocks, but maybe instead of mattress stuffing or bitcoins, you should just buy shares in whatever he's having.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:01 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

He wants power, adulation and the chance to humiliate people.

No matter what happens at the debate, Trump will claim victory because it was the highest rated debates ever. There's going to be like 100 million people watching, just in the US. I can't imagine what that will do to his ego.
posted by peeedro at 10:09 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

you should just buy shares in whatever he's having.

Except the peons won't be able to buy into that shit. Like a proper Russian-style oligarchy it'll be privately held up to the point at which it balloons.

(I have thought hard about cashing out the meagre amount of money I have in various index funds, and may finally do that tomorrow.)
posted by holgate at 10:12 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've had a thought about the "honesty issue"... I'm going to ask my Catholic Trumper and undecided acquaintances if they know what Vatileaks is or about the Vatican, Inc. stuff, and then ask whether they view Clinton or the Pope as more honest.

The plan being, to try to wrangle them into seeing how unexceptional the supposed bases for finding Clinton untrustworthy are for any leader in a large organization, versus how exceptional Trump's lies and self-dealing and everything else is.
posted by XMLicious at 10:14 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Here's some essential debate preparation: "11 Things You Might Not Know About Lester Holt"
#5. HE TOOK HIS FUTURE WIFE ON A DATE TO A FOREST FIRE. Don't ya just love listicles?
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:17 PM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

Am I the only one who was confused and thought that Lester Holt was the name of the main character from American Beauty?
posted by ian1977 at 10:19 PM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

Pure conjecture here, but I wouldn't be surprised if Trump has had the sit-down with Pence about how he fully expects to resign when the going gets rough and hand over the steering wheel. Even Trump must realize that he can't handle the rigors of this job for four years. And then we'll be exponentially fucked.
posted by vverse23 at 10:22 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Jill Stein goes after Michelle Obama on Twitter.
Twitter is not pleased.
posted by dougzilla at 10:33 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

I wouldn't be surprised if Trump has had the sit-down with Pence

Given that Pence seems to be running an entirely parallel campaign, I would be very surprised. (He was down the road on Saturday, with no publicity and invitation-only, promising Christian home-schooler parents that he'd defund Planned Parenthood and repeal the Johnson amendment that stops churches from being political endorsers while retaining 501(c)(3) status. And, y'know, help out home-schooler parents who don't want their kids learning difficult things.)
posted by holgate at 10:34 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

I can't imagine what that will do to his ego.

I'm hoping for "puts it past critical mass, detonating him into some sort of Ego-Singularity."
posted by Archelaus at 10:42 PM on September 25, 2016

Pure conjecture here, but I wouldn't be surprised if Trump has had the sit-down with Pence about how he fully expects to resign when the going gets rough and hand over the steering wheel.

While I agree that Trump could walk away from this at the drop of a hat if he felt like it - flipping everyone off on his way out - I would be shocked if he talked it over with Pence, or even someone whose opinion he might be remotely interested in. Admitting to someone else he might quit isn't really part of his deal. (Especially since the only up side would be a smoother transition period, and I imagine he doesn't care about that at all.)
posted by mordax at 10:52 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

dougzilla: "Jill Stein goes after Michelle Obama on Twitter. Twitter is not pleased."

This... does not demonstrate very sharp political instincts.
posted by mhum at 10:58 PM on September 25, 2016 [20 favorites]

Jill Stein is no more qualified than Trump. She may be less evil but she's no more qualified.
posted by Justinian at 10:59 PM on September 25, 2016 [29 favorites]

An optimist would say she's no less qualified.
posted by ian1977 at 11:33 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump and Carson were the only Republican candidates demanding that.

Which is telling, in that Carson's campaign from the outset was nothing more than a scam making money for PACs owned and run by his managers. Birds of a feather...
posted by PenDevil at 11:44 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

What both Stein and Trump demonstrate is a lack of common humanity. This makes them both absolutely unqualified to hold the highest office in the land.
posted by vac2003 at 11:55 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

My optimistic take on the debate: the last time the American people focussed their attention on the two candidates in a concentrated way, it was at the conventions, and Clinton’s poll numbers soared.

(I do also have a pessimistic take but *la la la I can’t hear you*)
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 12:27 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

THE DANGEROUS DISCOUNTING OF DONALD TRUMP

by Ali Minai

Another important effect fueling Trump's political movement is a dramatic change in the social acceptability of a specifically white identity. Identity politics is nothing new in the American system – especially for minority groups that appeal to group solidarity to overcome their marginalization in society at large. Over the last several decades, identity politics have mattered much more in the Democratic Party, where solid voting blocs such as African-American and LGBTQ voters have been critical to the success of the party. Meanwhile, almost by default, the Republican Party's voting base has become increasingly white, but that has not been seen as an explicit identification – in part because the notion of "white identity" has been tied closely with toxic ideologies such as white supremacy. Election 2016 has changed that. One of Trump's greatest strategic successes has been to turn his campaign into a vehicle for expressing attitudes, anxieties and grievances that have been building up in certain segments of the white electorate for reasons discussed earlier in this piece, but which could not be expressed in polite company until now. For the first time in recent American politics, an explicitly identifiable and somewhat socially acceptable white group identity has been created at the national level, with Donald Trump as its face. One should expect that some significant number of voters will be drawn in by their solidarity with this group in spite of their rational inclinations.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:35 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

Somehow I just don't think the other side is, like, sobbing into their pillows and vomiting with anxiety. Must be nice.

Well, no, they're not. Because they do actually know that Hillary's not going to institute mandatory abortions, dismantle ICE, pillage the churches or whatever nonsense rhetoric they've got going this week. Sure they believe it in a way, but like they don't actually believe it or there would be bombs going off in every major American city and underground resistance cells forming and, uh, that's not happening.

Watch what they do, not what they say. What they're doing is what they've always done, a rearguard reaction against the movement for racial and economic equality that's been going on since 1865.

I'm reading an excellent (i.e. horrifying) Pulitzer Prize-winning account of the post-Reconstruction era entitled Slavery By Another Name and it is just goddamn depressing and terrible to see that some of the exact same bullshit rationalizations that we hear today got used to justify the reenslavement of black people-slash-explain away why grabbing people off the public road, hauling them in on trumped-up vagrancy or nuisance charges and then selling their labor to mines or plantations that locked them up at night is TOTALLY not the same thing as slavery. Someone literally was quoted calling all black people "rapists and murderers" and I was like does Donald Trump have a fucking time machine?

In conclusion, same bullshit different century.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:06 AM on September 26, 2016 [50 favorites]

If there really isn't going to be any fact checking, I would totally like to see Secretary Clinton spend 90 minutes trying to quiz Donald Trump about names of Congressmen and departments of the government. Ask him who he is going to appoint as Minister of Magic.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:15 AM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]

Welp, watching Morning Joe has convinced me that it is time to build a nuclear fallout shelter and invest in some cyanide capsules just in case. The polls today were just godawful.
posted by xyzzy at 3:32 AM on September 26, 2016

So um. Can somebody smarter than I am demonstrate that HRC can get this thing if she loses FL and OH?
posted by angrycat at 4:07 AM on September 26, 2016

Why bother? It's neck-and-neck in CO & Pennsylvania. I am so incredibly dejected right now.
posted by xyzzy at 4:12 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Never mind, looked at a map, it would be 273 to 265, if all the other blues hold. Well, that's a pant-shittingly tight race
posted by angrycat at 4:12 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

FWIW, today's Princeton (Wang) assessment has Clinton at 294, same as yesterday.
posted by kingless at 4:19 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

Oh shit PA WTH homies
posted by angrycat at 4:22 AM on September 26, 2016

It's neck-and-neck in CO & Pennsylvania. I am so incredibly dejected right now.

Agghh! Stoppit! Trump has won precisely one poll in Pennsylvania ever. But polls have fluctuation.
posted by Francis at 4:23 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

So I went to look at the demographics of PA, how can Trump be even close? GOTV, guys please GOTV
posted by mumimor at 4:25 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Look at NJ and CA for fun. Clinton +39
posted by petebest at 4:26 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Good god, a couple of close polls and people are talking about cyanide capsules.
posted by octothorpe at 4:27 AM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

Good god, a couple of close polls and people are talking about cyanide capsules.

I'd laugh, but I'm too busy panicking. I need to, like, be put into cryosleep for the next few weeks.
posted by xyzzy at 4:30 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

Those are indeed some very terrible poll results.
posted by Justinian at 4:32 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Never mind, looked at a map, it would be 273 to 265, if all the other blues hold. Well, that's a pant-shittingly tight race

272 technically since Trump will take 1 of the Maine EV. I linked the map as I see it currently earlier in the thread. Note this requires Clinton to hold both CO and PA.

Florida is looking more and more central. Clinton could substitute Florida for both CO and PA if it came to it. Which I don't think it will but Florida would solve all kinds of problems.
posted by Justinian at 4:34 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

We're trying! But these days, no one answers their doors or their phones so voter contact is... difficult.

Over the weekend I was sitting on my porch with family when a woman walked by, saw my yard sign and started waving and thumbs-upping at me. I went over to talk to her. She lives a few streets away and said she was afraid to put a Hillary sign up or put a sticker on her car (I have both). This is a deep blue city and a racially integrated neighborhood but she's been convinced that any visible support for Clinton, even here, will get her house egged and car keyed. I tried to talk her down. I've had my signs up for a couple weeks, no blowback. She was planning to go canvassing the next day but again was afraid--what is she encountered a Trumpist? I told her she'd be mostly contacting Democrats, it's fine. The campaign of fear that Trump has been conducting has even terrified this old white lady in a liberal city. There's no words for how I'm feeling, how that conversation made me feel. To our Johnson canvasser friendin this thread, maybe that's why no Clinton supporters spoke up? They're terrified of being beat the fuck up by unhinged Trumpists?

My bag of holding has an endless supply of evens. I'm dropping them all over the place.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:36 AM on September 26, 2016 [44 favorites]

I previously recommended if he wins you should take all your money out of banks and stocks

In all seriousness...what is the safest thing to do with one's money? I don't have much, but I've put a moratorium on unnecessary spending until further notice, and I happen to have a convenient opportunity to move my retirement savings around. I know nothing about this stuff, but I know enough to be nervous about what a Trump win (or even a tight run-up to the election) could do to the markets.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:39 AM on September 26, 2016

MODERATOR: how would you combat world hunger?

TRUMP: blow up the moon, let the cheese fall to earth

MODERATOR: hillary, same question
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:41 AM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]

> "Good god, a couple of close polls and people are talking about cyanide capsules."

There shouldn't be polls that are that close. Even outliers shouldn't be that close.

This is an election between a reasonable, competent human being and an absolutely bugfuck nuts lunatic, and it's terrifying that it's even a question.
posted by kyrademon at 4:46 AM on September 26, 2016 [34 favorites]

For people who might be planning to vote Johnson while counting on the rest of us to actually save the country, note that in the CNN 4 way races Clinton is up by 1 in PA and actually losing by 1 in CO. But in the 2 way race she is at 50% in PA and 49% in CO.

Yeah, yeah I'm not supposed to be mad at Johnson/Stein voters because blah blah blah. But no, if they blow up the country I'm going to have a conniption. The Trump voters are mostly unreachable. These folks should know better. I suspect they would come to deeply regret their vote if Trump gets elected. I hope the rest of us save them from that.
posted by Justinian at 4:47 AM on September 26, 2016 [28 favorites]

Guys, the debate is tonight. Hold off on panic.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:01 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sam Wang: Three Reasons To Ignore Debate “Expectations”
posted by octothorpe at 5:05 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Krugman basically calling out his own paper again.

The Falsity of False Equivalence

"If Donald Trump becomes president, the news media will bear a large share of the blame. I know some (many) journalists are busy denying responsibility, but this is absurd, and I think they know it. As Nick Kristof says, polls showing that the public considers Hillary Clinton, a minor fibber at most, less trustworthy than a pathological liar is prima facie evidence of massive media failure.

In fact, it’s telling that this debate is usually framed as one of false equivalence and whether it’s a problem. It’s a lot better to have this debate than a continuation of the unchecked media assault on Clinton. But it’s actually much worse than that. The media haven’t treated Clinton fibs as the equivalent of outright Trump lies; they have treated more or less innocuous Clintonisms as major scandals while whitewashing Trump."
posted by chris24 at 5:16 AM on September 26, 2016 [54 favorites]

@ashleyfeinberg: MSNBC rn on moderators factchecking: "What if Trump says Hillary was president during 9/11?"

Trump spox: "That's for Hillary to refute."
posted by chris24 at 5:22 AM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

Hold off on panic.

My head agrees and my head says she will win.

My gut is another story. Lately, I often wake in the middle of the night with Trump anxiety. It's taking a toll on my digestion. The man literally makes me sick. Last time I felt this way about US events was in the pre-Iraq war buildup anxiety. And I am a privileged white older woman - I can't imagine the gut wrenching anxiety for Trump's hate-targeted groups, I am so sorry you all have to put up with this shit.
posted by madamjujujive at 5:34 AM on September 26, 2016 [27 favorites]

So basically, the entire debate is going to be about Donald Trump and/or his insults aimed at Hillary, and again Hillary isn't going to have any chance to make an affirmative case for herself. Swell.

I hate everything.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:34 AM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]

Mom has been worried about the increasingly tight polling in Colorado, where she lives, so I persuaded her to sign up to volunteer this coming weekend. I did a few hours' worth of Florida calling on Saturday with an older list and got a grand total of six pro-Hillary people, but at least I flagged a bunch of wrong/disconnected numbers and a few people who absolutely, positively weren't with her.

Sorry for talking a lot about my election-related activities and not much about the polls and news. The Bloomberg national tie and the CNN/ORC reported ties in CO and PA have me pretty irrationally nervous, and everything else I can think to say has been said better by someone else.

I think I'll be going to the Law Dems debate watch party because (a) I already know most of the attendees and (b) it's upstairs, which is my preferred length of commute.
posted by Leslie Knope at 5:36 AM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]

soren_lorensen: But these days, no one answers their doors or their phones so voter contact is... difficult.

Discussion on DU about this, from the callee POV. The OP asks "Serious question about polls - do you pick up your phone if you don't recognize the caller?"

Some serious answers, and this:

No. I've won too many trips to the Caribbean as it is.

posted by valetta at 5:42 AM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

Quinnipiac has a national poll out today as well, +1 Clinton with LV.
posted by Justinian at 5:42 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sometimes this thread is like some perverse competition to see who can be the most performatively despairing.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:43 AM on September 26, 2016 [30 favorites]

Chuck Todd Suggests Trump Should Have Invited 'Grieving Benghazi Mother' To Debate Instead Of Flowers

Even for Chuck Todd, parroting Breitbart commenters on air seems like a new low.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:51 AM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]

Discussion on DU about this, from the callee POV. The OP asks "Serious question about polls - do you pick up your phone if you don't recognize the caller?"

I mean, I do the calling and I don't pick up when I see a non-local area code. But then, I know exactly who it is (my neighborhood's organizer) and exactly what they're going to ask (am I going to volunteer right now/tomorrow/this weekend?) and what my answer will be (I am volunteering as much as I can but I work and have a four-year-old, so, you know, I'll get there when I get there). I sign up for my shifts online so I have time to check all my various calendars and clear childcare with my spouse.

So I get it. But the policy is to not leave messages so actually getting a message to voters is not something that happens a lot.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:51 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

yeah I'm having total post-9/11 reactions to this situation
posted by angrycat at 5:54 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

‘The whole chessboard’: A new document reveals Donald Trump’s economic strategy in detail

Trump not only takes Paul Ryan's magic asterisk of massive tax cuts creating huge windfalls (how's that working in Kansas?), he applies the same 'logic' to a brand new magic asterisk, that somehow pulling the US out of the WTO and renegotiating every trade deal would also create giant windfalls. He'd do both.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:55 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Two of our cats take prozac for behavior and litter box issues. Strongly considering dipping into their supply.
posted by localhuman at 5:57 AM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

Yeah, I am not making anything up when I say that I was awake in the middle of the night for at least an hour last night worrying. Like, sorry for bumming everyone out, but I'm completely terrified.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:02 AM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]

TRUMP: blow up the moon, let the cheese fall to earth [fake]

More from the article linked upthread by the man of twists and turns:

Following the defeat of Barry Goldwater in the 1964 Presidential election, some in the Republican Party embarked on an ambitious plan to create an alternative reality to sustain their conservative ideology in a world driven increasingly by the ideas of science. This project took off following the enactment of civil rights and welfare laws by Democrats and liberal Republicans in the mid-1960s, and truly became supercharged in the Reagan years with the advent of talk radio and the rise of the religious right. The culmination of this alternative reality was the election of George W. Bush in 2000, and the subsequent invasion of Iraq – arguably one of the most world-altering events of the last fifty years. The foundational principles of the Republican Alternate Reality Project, or RARP, are the detachment of belief from evidence, and the manufacturing of conspiracy theories to sustain an evidence-free view of reality. In this funhouse mirror universe, reducing taxes increases revenue and cuts deficits (supply-side – or voodoo – economics), taking away their welfare benefits makes poor people happier, giving more money to the rich alleviates poverty (trickle-down economics), election fraud is rampant in America, and climate change is an elaborate liberal hoax. Notable recent additions to this canon include the idea that President Obama is a Kenyan-born Muslim Saul Alinsky acolyte, and the primary function of Planned Parenthood is to harvest fetuses for evil scientists.

In the particular context of the present election, the effect of the RARP is to create an open space for Donald Trump to propagate lie after lie without any pushback from his committed followers.

THE DANGEROUS DISCOUNTING OF DONALD TRUMP, by Ali Minai


posted by Mister Bijou at 6:06 AM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]

In all seriousness...what is the safest thing to do with one's money?

Buy guns and canned food. Plan an escape route out of any major cities. Dig out your old map of nuclear fallout shelters.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:06 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm in the sleepless-night crowd too.

If things really are going the way they look, this is larger than any misstep Clinton could be making. I can't decide if we're being hypnotized by a single world-class manipulator or if what we think of as the prosperous, democratic world is about embark on a massive series of self-destructive acts and Brexit and Trump are just the tip of the spear.
posted by argybarg at 6:06 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

Most of my stoicism has come from a surprisingly deep-ish well of faith in the American electorate that elected Obama twice. For whatever reason, with this morning's polls I may have hit the bottom. This is the second time I've felt scared, and saying so is not "performative." It's a sad attempt to scrape some comfort from community. I'm pretty sure we'd all love some of that.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:07 AM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]

Sometimes this thread is like some perverse competition to see who can be the most performatively despairing.

And then sometimes, the wise, sober arbiters of what is polling noise and what is worthy of our concern venture out from their quarters to let everyone know how much more wise and sober they are.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:10 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

From T.D. Strange's linked article above:

Later, he predicted the Chinese would end "cheating" practices on trade: “Donald Trump comes into the White House, they will perceive strength, and they will understand that it’s in their best interest to make a better deal and move forward with relations.”

Holy shit. They actually think that's a plan?
posted by strange chain at 6:13 AM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

Buy guns and canned food. Plan an escape route out of any major cities. Dig out your old map of nuclear fallout shelters.

Ok, but what if you've already beaten Fallout 4? What then???
posted by kythuen at 6:13 AM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

I heard the words "...Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson..." on the radio this morning and was once again reminded that the entire Western world is happily tipping towards lunacy at breakneck pace. We Americans, of course, do it biggest and baddest, but we're far from alone.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:13 AM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]

I had to explain to a friend who will vote Clinton but can't stand the anxiety: Say you're 13 and your mother is thinking about marrying an abusive moron who you are pretty sure will fuck up your life. If at least your cousins see what you see, you have to talk to them, just to know they see what you see. It's the only way to stay sane.
posted by argybarg at 6:20 AM on September 26, 2016 [27 favorites]

I found this somewhat comforting.

Obama’s campaign guru: Don’t fret about polls. Clinton is winning, and she can finish the job tonight.
posted by colt45 at 6:28 AM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

In case it hasn't been posted here yet - Metatalk on the debate thread.
posted by hilaryjade at 6:30 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

New Clinton ad (yt):

"Trump can't win tonight's debate by lying to the American people."
posted by chris24 at 6:30 AM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

If Trump were leading in the polls I'd be more freaked, but he still isn't. He's behind where McCain and Romney were at this same date. I know Trump is scary but honestly, Clinton is still winning. I'm not saying get complacent but maybe save the rending of garments and smearing of ashes until the Republic is actually dead?
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:32 AM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]

I'm forever an optimist and my theory still is that it will be a landslide. I believe the polls are less accurate today because Clinton supporters are much less vocal due to fear of repurcussions (I refuse to put a sticker on my car because signs are being vandalized on both sides in my very very blue state of MA) and people are less willing to answer doors or take phone calls from folks they don't know especially in areas where I assume Clinton should be leading (big cities?).

Also I did my good duty for the day and got my friend to register to vote in FL who hasn't voted since the Disillusionment of 2004 because they were just fed up with the system. I told them how important this was and especially now that they're in FL instead of their previously very blue state, and they sent in their registration over the weekend. So that's one more.
posted by danapiper at 6:32 AM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]

Obama’s campaign guru: Don’t fret about polls. Clinton is winning, and she can finish the job tonight.

Lol at him calling Trump Cheeto in the interview.

"I know everybody goes crazy about the latest Cheetos poll, but I feel very confident about both New Hampshire and Florida."
posted by chris24 at 6:35 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

“Donald Trump comes into the White House, they will perceive strength, and they will understand that it’s in their best interest to make a better deal and move forward with relations.”

Just his mighty presence will cause world leaders to tremble, as we saw when he met with the Mexican president and achieved nothing except getting his ass handed to him later on Twitter.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:36 AM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]

Serious question: Should one even watch the debates, if one has already decided who to vote for? I usually watch them, but this season is just so awful due to Trump's presence, that I don't really want to give him any more attention. At this point, Hillary could come out as a secret alien from the Planet X who are intent on conquering Earth and be the sort of person that talks at movies and I'd still prefer her.

Whether to watch the debates is the only thing I'm undecided about.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:36 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

One data point: I always tell people that "they're both awful" unless I know the people or am ready to argue. I mean, I do think they're both awful, but to very different degrees, and I have a whole "remember the Supreme Court, do you want to break RBG's heart" spiel for when I am ready to argue.

I do this because, despite being a rock-'em-sock'-em internet opinionater, I'm kind of conflict averse in real life and because I don't want to discover who among my colleagues is a Trumpist. But it's quite possible that a lot of squishy lefties are allowing as how both are awful because they don't want to have non-stop fights.
posted by Frowner at 6:38 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

The 538 nowcast currently has Trump at 54.9% probability of victory... I know the nowcast is noisy, but.... damn.
posted by modernnomad at 6:38 AM on September 26, 2016

It's amazing how much of right-wing politics comes down to "I can't tell the difference between strength, negotiation skill, and empty bluster".
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:39 AM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]

If Trump were leading in the polls I'd be more freaked, but he still isn't. He's behind where McCain and Romney were at this same date

I don't believe that's true.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:42 AM on September 26, 2016

"I know everybody goes crazy about the latest Cheetos poll, but I feel very confident about both New Hampshire and Florida."

This is not fake.
posted by winna at 6:42 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

@BobbyBigWheel: I don't know how many of you are undecided voters but only one campaign is asking debate moderators to not say if they are lying
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:43 AM on September 26, 2016 [45 favorites]

This whole thing really is about dominance. But what I don't get is how blatantly transparent Trump's dominance pose is. It's like he read some place about how primates signal hierarchical dominance and went full chimpanzee and never looked in the mirror at how ludicrous he looks when he's making those faces. I don't know how anyone takes it seriously.

I'm trying really hard to not be publicly afraid because half the appeal of this douchebag to other douchebags is "Ha ha made you flinch ha ha!" The more we liberals are scared of a Trump presidency, the more hilarious they find it.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:45 AM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]

Just his mighty presence will cause world leaders to tremble, as we saw when he met with the Mexican president and achieved nothing except getting his ass handed to him later on Twitter.

I think Hillary should say exactly this tonight.

Honestly, I've been more worried than I am today. I am looking forward to tonight. She is a great debater. She can do this. She has come prepared for Cheeto Benito and she is armed. Personally, I think she is going to clean Hofstra's floors with him.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:46 AM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

Frankly, I trust the Plouffe.
posted by Tevin at 6:46 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

it's quite possible that a lot of squishy lefties are allowing as how both are awful because they don't want to have non-stop fights.

Imagine how much higher the incentive would be if you leaned Clinton and your social world were full of Trump supporters, or at least lifelong Republicans. You would surely sign on to the accepted social norm of "they're both terrible" as the compromise that will keep you safe.

The problem is it becomes a bulwark against the kind of outpouring that Hillary is going to need to win this thing. She needs people to say we are going to stand up for what is good. Working instead from the premise of everything is shit gets you Trump because is everything is shit anyway, why not be entertained?
posted by argybarg at 6:46 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

I believe the polls are less accurate today because Clinton supporters are much less vocal due to fear of repurcussions (I refuse to put a sticker on my car because signs are being vandalized on both sides in my very very blue state of MA) and people are less willing to answer doors or take phone calls from folks they don't know especially in areas where I assume Clinton should be leading (big cities?).

It's time to unskew the polls.
posted by indubitable at 6:47 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

FYI, 538 is the only one showing anything close to a "dead heat." Here's the breakdown from other polling aggregators:

NYT Upshot: 69%
DailyKos: 64%
PredictWise: 70%
PEC: 79%
Cook Political Report: Lean Dem
Rothenberg & Gonzales: Lean Dem
Larry Sabato: Likely Dem
posted by zombieflanders at 6:47 AM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

Data point, I am the leftyist leftist that has ever lefted. I would crawl through glass to vote for Hillary, despite her being right of my personal agenda. I had about $400 in damage done to my bumper because of my Hillary sticker. It was next to my Darwin fish, and it looks like someone took a bowie knife, stuck it in deep enough to get under the paint, and scraped across to remove them. (Plastic, preformed bumpers, I.e. Mazda) ill be honest, I didn't even know they were painted, I thought the whole thing was just formed that color. It happened in a strip center shopping parking lot, as far as I can guess. I thought about putting signs out, but I just this weekend finally got all my windows replaced after the storm this spring, and I don't have the thousands of dollars to replace them again.

Point is this, there are lots of people who are afraid of the other side enough to not be vocal, but this fear almost guarantees that they will vote against the Orange Apocalypse.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:49 AM on September 26, 2016 [27 favorites]

> "Here's the breakdown from other polling aggregators:"

That ... is really not as comforting as I think you perhaps intended.
posted by kyrademon at 6:50 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Eh, people are comparing the numbers a month and a half away from the election to feeling like they did after 9/11. I think relative to that, they should be comforting, but whatevs.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:53 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

I guess I feel like we know where we stand now: it's still more likely that Clinton will win, but it's going to be close, and it's not anything like a sure thing. That's where we are. There's no reason to panic, but there is also no room for complacency. So what can you do? Can you donate $5 to the Clinton campaign? Can you volunteer in your nearest swing state this weekend? Can you make phone calls using the autodialer? Can you vote early? (Early voting starts on Thursday in my state. I'm going to see if I can round up some friends to go vote at the library with me that day.) Can you talk to a couple of friends about why you like Hillary and think she'll be a good president? I think the important thing is to try to channel our worries into positive action.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:54 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

FYI, 538 is the only one showing anything close to a "dead heat."

I just unsubscribed from 538 in my RSS reader and from Silver on twitter. The signal-to-noise filtering value of worrying over a guy paid to amp up noise is not worth it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:56 AM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

Since I'm believer in the 538 forecasts, the virtual tie is somewhate worrying, but this is just a brief snapshot as of today. If it remains like this for the next few weeks, then I'll worry.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:58 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

I voted today, so that's one thing checked off.
posted by kyrademon at 6:58 AM on September 26, 2016 [44 favorites]

So, I have a dead serious question, one that has been running in the back of my mind for weeks but that now is coming more and more to the forefront of my thoughts, and I know my wise fellow Metafilterians will have answers for me:

If Trump is elected, and if he actually starts to do the things he promises to do -- mass deportations, high tariffs with China and/or Mexico, dumps us out of NAFTA (sending the economy into a nosedive), possibly ramps up the war in the Middle East -- what do we do? What can I, a middle aged white lady with a mortgage and a responsibility to feed my family, do?

I'm more used to protests where your physical presence helps or hinders. Forming a wall in front of Planned Parenthood - that sort of thing. But the idea of families in my community being rousted from their homes and deported sickens me. What does the resistance look like? Honestly, what action can I personally plan to take against a government that has tossed civil liberties out the window.
posted by anastasiav at 7:03 AM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

We found some friends to come over and watch the debate with us, so I am going to be present with them, eating, drinking and having fun, instead of drowning in internet commentary. I suspect this will be very healthy for me.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:04 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Metafilter meets real life: HAMILTON Cast Members to Host Voter Registration at Richard Rodgers Theater
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:04 AM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

Trump In 2014: “American Exceptionalism” Is “A Very Dangerous Term To Use”

“Well, I think it’s a very dangerous term in one way. Because I heard Putin saying, ‘Who do they think they are, saying they’re exceptional?’”

Yep, he thinks American exceptionalism is bad because it hurts Putin's feelings.
posted by chris24 at 7:07 AM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]

HAMILTON Cast Members to Host Voter Registration at Richard Rodgers Theater

Voter registration is always to the general good, but maybe their efforts would be put to better use in Anywhere But New York City
posted by mightygodking at 7:10 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

Tomorrow (Tues 9/27) is National Voter Registration Day. I'm emailing out a reminder about voter registration to everyone in my corner of the office!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:11 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Voter registration is always to the general good, but maybe their efforts would be put to better use in Anywhere But New York City

I think they are doing it in conjunction with the national voter registration days, which are also days they have performances.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:11 AM on September 26, 2016

The Bloomberg poll that came out this does worry me some. Ann Selzer, Bloomberg's pollster, is one of the best in the country, and instead relying on voting in previous elections to filter likely voters, she asks people if they're definitely going to vote. This may indicate the Democrats have a turn-out problem. It showed up in her poll last month too.

Fortunately, Clinton has an excellent ground game, and Trump has almost nothing. Thanks to everyone who's volunteering. Getting out the vote could make a big difference this year, and you'll be the ones who make that happen.
posted by nangar at 7:14 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Make America Great* Again

*just not greater than Russia, Putin might get his fee fees hurt
posted by chris24 at 7:14 AM on September 26, 2016

What can I, a middle aged white lady with a mortgage and a responsibility to feed my family, do?

Work for the Clinton campaign. Any other answer has to wait.
posted by argybarg at 7:15 AM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

Guys, I lost my phone on a roller coaster yesterday and the first thing I thought was "how am I going to find my place in the election thread again?" Fortunately I was able to catch up, and now I have the thread loaded on my iPad, which I will not bring on any rides with me. Now, off to make my guacamole!
posted by Biblio at 7:18 AM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

If Trump is elected, and if he actually starts to do the things he promises to do -- mass deportations, high tariffs with China and/or Mexico, dumps us out of NAFTA (sending the economy into a nosedive), possibly ramps up the war in the Middle East -- what do we do? What can I, a middle aged white lady with a mortgage and a responsibility to feed my family, do?

You can't do much of anything directly except lobby your congresscritter, work to get someone blue elected in your state and district, and vote again in two years. If Trump wins it's up to our elected officials to make use of our constitutional levers to keep him in check, and our military to refuse unlawful orders, and our bureaucrats to put up institutional roadblocks. In other words, if Trump wins, we're fucked.

Indirectly, the impact of a Trump presidency will fall hardest on the poor and especially poor people of color. You can volunteer, you can quit your job to work for a non-profit, you can donate.
posted by dis_integration at 7:22 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Psh I just got back from a two week vacation to Europe with limited internet access.

Did I miss anything?
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:22 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

Don't mind me, I'm just sitting here trying to puzzle out my dual Canadian citizenship and how much of that carries over to my son...

U of T, if you need an instructional technologist... call me!
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:28 AM on September 26, 2016

The Bloomberg poll that came out this does worry me some. Ann Selzer, Bloomberg's pollster is one of the best in the country, and instead relying on voting in previous elections to filter likely voters, she asks people if they're definitely going to vote. This may indicate the Democrats have a turn-out problem. It showed up in her poll last month too.

This is known and is another reason the Democrats lose midterms. I can't remember who produced an article and a set of graphs where 100% likely to turn out favoured the Republicans, 90% the Democrats, 80% was an overwhelmingly Democratic win.

Get Out The Vote and the Ground Game really matters for the Democrat and not so much for the Republican.
posted by Francis at 7:35 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

HAMILTON Cast Members to Host Voter Registration at Richard Rodgers Theater

Voter registration is always to the general good, but maybe their efforts would be put to better use in Anywhere But New York City

People come to Broadway from all over the country; I would imagine a great majority of Hamilton attendees at this point are from Anywhere But New York City.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:39 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

Psh I just got back from a two week vacation to Europe with limited internet access.

Did I miss anything?

Everything and nothing. Don't bother reading to catch up, just join the new thread that goes up sometime today before the first debate.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:39 AM on September 26, 2016

I drove from my pale-red home in rural Ohio through Deep Red Ohio Country this weekend and saw, much to my ever-loving rage and disbelief, tons of Trump signs.

BUT! I also saw two Hillary canvassers.

I didn't see any Trump canvassers.

I know it's a bit anecdotal but signs don't win elections; door knockers do.
posted by Tevin at 7:39 AM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

I've been binge watching old shows or at least they've been on in the background. Had lots of time since being laid off. I'm now down to shows in my medium to low interest list and that aren't too deep. I need escapist fluff and silliness to help with the sanity level. Latest is Gossip Girl, which I am enjoying for the total ridiculousness of it all, but holy heck season 3 and 4, there are actual Trumps in it! Kushner and Ivanka were all here's an awesome award upper class snobby dude! Way to smack me back into reality stupid show. *shudder* The Trump references in that show take on a whole new level of ominous now.
posted by Jalliah at 7:41 AM on September 26, 2016

Psh I just got back from a two week vacation to Europe with limited internet access.

Did I miss anything?

5000 comments “ZOMG POLL NUMBERS SHIFTED”
posted by farlukar at 7:41 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Mika, a lie would mean that he knew the man's party registration," Conway said.

Kellyanne, if he didn't know the man's party registration why did he SAY he did?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:42 AM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]

Way to smack me back into reality stupid show. *shudder* The Trump references in that show take on a whole new level of ominous now.
Gilmore Girls does this to me too, lots of Hillary references and a few Trump references.
posted by peacheater at 7:43 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

92 percent of at least two of our embeds' tweets are negative toward Donald Trump. Why are they on our campaign plane? Why are they covering our campaign if they can't say, 'Hey, look at this crowd' ... So excuse the Trump campaign if we feel like we can't get a fair shake from certain people."

No one seems to understand what journalism is.
posted by winna at 7:47 AM on September 26, 2016 [25 favorites]

Some good state-of-journalism GRAR from PZ Myers.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:50 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Cruz on Beck again declines to:
- encourage a vote for Trump
- say Trump is fit to be POTUS
- affirm full trust for Trump on judges

Helluva endorsement.
posted by chris24 at 7:51 AM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

Remembering (or misremembering) that speculation on Trump many months ago was that he was running as a candidate who could enforce law & order in our current period of civil unrest, and some suspicions that he would encourage civil unrest, or at least make it less unthinkable.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:56 AM on September 26, 2016

Also this is what we have come to: Trump and Nazi flags paired at Bloomsburg, PA fair.
posted by peacheater at 7:58 AM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

Trump’s version of law and order is the reason we lead the world in incarceration (Vox, July 21, 2016)
posted by filthy light thief at 7:59 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

Anti-Trump GOP strategist Mike Murphy calls today's polling "president of September", fwiw.

92 percent of at least two of our embeds' tweets are negative toward Donald Trump.

One of those is Sopan Deb who generally just transcribes, highlights, and tweets what Trump is saying, with a little bit of fact-checking on basic repeated lies and misrepresentations (such as the '58%' African-American youth unemployment stat which includes those still in school).
posted by holgate at 7:59 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

CNN Crafts Commercial for Debate Night That Looks Like a News Show: For two and a half minutes during its coverage leading up to this evening’s presidential debate between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, CNN will air a commercial for cable-TV’s Epix network that will look a lot like its regular programming. Michael Steele, the former Republican National Committee chair and frequent cable-news analyst; Barney Frank, the former Massachusetts Congressman; Amy Holmes, a news anchor who has appeared on The Blaze and MSNBC; and Mark Updegrove, a presidential historian, will all hold forth on what is supposed to be a stunning revelation by a former U.S. President.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:00 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Mika, a lie would mean that he knew the man's party registration," Conway said.

As Harry G. Frankfurt, professor at Princeton University, explains in his book "On Bullshit" Trump is not actually a liar. He is worse. He is a bullshitter.

"Frankfurt’s key observation is that the liar, even as he or she might spread untruth, inhabits a universe where the distinction between truth and falsehood still matters. The bullshitter, by contrast, does not care what is true or not. By his or her bluffing, dissimulation, and general dishonesty, the bullshit artist works to erase the very possibility of knowing the truth. For this reason, bullshit is more dangerous than lies, since it erodes even the possibility of truth existing and being found."

“It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth,” Frankfurt observes. “Producing bullshit requires no such conviction. A person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to that extent respectful of it. When an honest man speaks, he says only what he believes to be true; and for the liar, it is correspondingly indispensable that he considers his statements to be false. For the bullshitter, however, all bets are off. … He does not reject the authority of the truth, as the liar does, and oppose himself to it. He pays no attention to it at all. By virtue of this, bullshit is a greater enemy of truth than lies are.”
posted by JackFlash at 8:01 AM on September 26, 2016 [29 favorites]

Something/nothing: this morning NPR started airing a series calledDivided States (site search, as the posts aren't tagged [yet?]). They're on Morning Edition, so they don't have transcripts yet, and there are only four interviews with people in Georgia. I think the idea is to give listeners a view of individual voters and show that voters don't follow all the "party breaks" you'd imagine, even though some clearly do. They're audio-only for now, with transcripts to go up later today. So far, there is a white male auto mechanic and his wife, who tie racial tensions to Obama and as surprise to no one, plan to vote for Trump. The other trumpeter is a black male Iraq and Afghanistan war veteran and current small-scale farmer who is tired of "politics as usual." The two Hillary supporters are women, a black woman who owns an electrical contracting company, and a white retired airline pilot and nurse who started a flight school.

It'll be interesting to see how their interviewees reinforce or break gender patterns.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:01 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

CNN Crafts Commercial for Debate Night That Looks Like a News Show

And MSNBC is running its lead-up like it's College Gameday.
posted by holgate at 8:02 AM on September 26, 2016

I just went outside and my Hillary sign was lying on my porch. Weird.
posted by Biblio at 8:02 AM on September 26, 2016

"The bullshitter, by contrast, does not care what is true or not. By his or her bluffing, dissimulation, and general dishonesty, the bullshit artist works to erase the very possibility of knowing the truth. For this reason, bullshit is more dangerous than lies, since it erodes even the possibility of truth existing and being found."

And then when the very person in charge of structuring and managing the debates says she doesn't think moderators should call out bullshit, she's creating a world that says "bullshit is OK."
posted by dnash at 8:06 AM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

This lie vs. bullshit thing keeps popping up in these threads, and it's so silly and meaningless. This isn't a riddle where "one always tells the truth, the other always lies", so if you can figure it out you know to just believe the opposite. When Trump knows the truth but says something false, he's lying. When Trump doesn't know the truth but pretends he does, and says something false, he's still lying, about his own knowledge and expertise. Debating the semantics of it seems pointless. He is a liar. He's a bullshitter. He is a con artist. He is all of these things.
posted by Roommate at 8:07 AM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]

"It's all part of The Spectacle! Semiotics and shit! Wooooo!"
posted by Artw at 8:08 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Words don't mean things.
posted by petebest at 8:11 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

So basically, the entire debate is going to be about Donald Trump and/or his insults aimed at Hillary, and again Hillary isn't going to have any chance to make an affirmative case for herself. Swell.


And then the headlines will be all talking about how Hillary doesn't have a platform and won't address the issues, after she spends all night dealing with the fantastic lying gasbag. Because it isn't the media's job to fact-check anything, don't you know. I'm beginning to refer to them as the stenographer's pool.
posted by nubs at 8:16 AM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

Third parties fraction Clinton's coalition.

Where the hell is Bernie again?
posted by schadenfrau at 8:17 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Where the hell is Bernie again?

Campaigning with Hillary

Can we not?
posted by dis_integration at 8:21 AM on September 26, 2016 [31 favorites]

PA anecdote: On a bike route that I ride regularly, I saw 4 Trump signs. I spoke aloud to each one. There were easily twice as many Romney signs on this route 4 years ago.
posted by Dashy at 8:22 AM on September 26, 2016

Okay people we're approximately six-and-one-half hours out from the debate. I think.

Who's writing The Official MeFi 2016 Election First Debate Post™?

I nominate CHT. Or: Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock on three . . . One . . Two . . .
posted by petebest at 8:23 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Third parties fraction Clinton's coalition.

Florida can still save us all.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:24 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think the mods have the new post and timing covered.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:24 AM on September 26, 2016

Prince Georging, Meflection, and Gobbing: A brief guide to Trump's rhetorical tricks.
posted by gerryblog at 8:28 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think the mods have the new post and timing covered.

The Election Debate Logistics Thread
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:29 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

PA anecdote: On a bike route that I ride regularly, I saw 4 Trump signs. I spoke aloud to each one. There were easily twice as many Romney signs on this route 4 years ago.

Rural New England, here - tons of Trump signs, especially the obnoxious giant ones. Nothing for Hillary, not even on bumperstickers. Quite a change from four years ago - I see more leftover Obama stickers than Hillary stickers. There's no chance my state goes red, but the enthusiasm gap is notable.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:32 AM on September 26, 2016

Mod note: For serious, let's not go down another Wither Bernie hole here.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:33 AM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

Some poll-chewing in this Twitter thread, on the topic of how campaigns model the electorate, and how and when wavering voters 'come home' to a party.
posted by holgate at 8:34 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

So, I check this thread and see a lot of panic about the polls and I check my usual go to-source, electoral-vote.com, and see a gap that's widened since I checked last on Friday. I feel like I'm in an argument at the sports book, basically.
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:38 AM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

Bloomberg TV to fact check debate on-screen
posted by chris24 at 8:38 AM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

Bloomberg TV to fact check debate on-screen

Well, at least we'll clinch the crucial top 1% of income vote.
posted by dis_integration at 8:39 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

John Oliver Compares Trump And Clinton 'Scandals'

Hey, New York Times, this is what actual reporting looks like without campaigning for Trump. Take some fucking notes.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:40 AM on September 26, 2016 [30 favorites]

Rural New England, here - tons of Trump signs, especially the obnoxious giant ones. Nothing for Hillary, not even on bumperstickers. Quite a change from four years ago - I see more leftover Obama stickers than Hillary stickers. There's no chance my state goes red, but the enthusiasm gap is notable.

Well, in theory, it may not be as much an enthusiasm gap as a shipping one given the problems people here have had getting their merchandise from the Clinton camp.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:41 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Gizmodo: How to Stream Tonight's Presidential Debate For Free, No Cable Required.

If one _does_ have cable, additional streaming options are possible. #nextPost
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:45 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

I just went outside and my Hillary sign was lying on my porch. Weird.

It probably needed to lie down for a minute because of heat stroke and pneumonia.
posted by Too-Ticky at 8:46 AM on September 26, 2016 [22 favorites]

Well, in theory, it may not be as much an enthusiasm gap as a shipping one given the problems people here have had getting their merchandise from the Clinton camp.

Yesterday a bunch of Clinton / Kaine signs sprouted up like mushrooms in my neighborhood. I don't think that a bunch of people were suddenly won over to the cause - rather it's likely that a truckload of signs arrived.
posted by Surely This at 8:46 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

"There is no denying the Republicans have the passion now, the enthusiasm. The Democrats do not. Independents are breaking for Romney. And there’s the thing about the yard signs. In Florida a few weeks ago I saw Romney signs, not Obama ones. From Ohio I hear the same. From tony Northwest Washington, D.C., I hear the same."
posted by chris24 at 8:49 AM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]

Rural New England, here - tons of Trump signs, especially the obnoxious giant ones.

I'm seeing a lot more Trump signs here in Northern Va, but like 90% of them are not official Trump/Pence signs, but printed and distributed by the Virginia Republican party. I see that as a good sign that 1) those donations that paid for the signs are going to the state party and not the Trump campaign and 2) the Trump campaign has no ground game doing basic things like contacting voters and distributing signs in the area where they have the greatest need to win more votes.
posted by peeedro at 8:53 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

SFChronicle [SFGate.com]: Networks resist using high tech to fact-check debates

I love the solution Salon CEO Jordan Hoffner offered the other day: The debates should borrow a page from the National Football League and call out lies just like NFL teams challenge penalties.

“Each side would be given two challenges,” Hoffner wrote. “The candidates could then use them over the course of the 90-minute debate. If one heard a ‘lie’ during the other’s response, he or she could press a button that would illuminate a red light at his or her podium.”

Then Fact-Check or Politifact could check out the statement. If the “lie” was proved to be a lie, then that candidate could keep their two challenges. Hoffner said it only took him seconds to fact-check one of Trump’s most frequently told lies. Factcheck.org director Eugene Kiely is dubious that all sleuthing could be done that quickly.

referencing Salon: An open letter to the Commission on Presidential Debates: Bring on instant replay!
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:54 AM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]

"There is no denying the Republicans have the passion now, the enthusiasm. The Democrats do not. Independents are breaking for Romney....

That piece opens with with the best "reader beware" preamble:

We begin with the three words everyone writing about the election must say: Nobody knows anything. Everyone’s guessing.

Let's have more political prognostication pages open with those lines, and everything that quotes Trump, people in his campaign or his supporters with HuffPo's endcap:

Editor’s note: Donald Trump regularly incites political violence and is a serial liar, rampant xenophobe, racist, misogynist and birther who has repeatedly pledged to ban all Muslims — 1.6 billion members of an entire religion — from entering the U.S.

And I'd be happy. Heck, move that the the front of pieces that quote Trump or anyone who supports him AND every article about how Hillary is probably up to no good and/or dying right now, and I'd be OK with journalists not doing much fact-checking for the article itself.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:57 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

I had a very vivid dream last night about the debates, but the entire dream consisted of showing up at the place where I'll be watching the debate, chatting with my friends who were there, finding seats, and waiting for it to start. At no point in the dream did the debates actually begin. Even now, at this late date, some part of my brain is completely unable to process the fact that Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are about to have a presidential debate.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:03 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

My hoodie arrived! Four weeks an a couple days, FWIW.

Who's writing The Official MeFi 2016 Election First Debate Post™?

I've got one half written. If the mods aren't doing their own I'll finish it up.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:03 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm pretty unconvinced by most of the polling that suggests Trump is within the margin of error.

Most of the time they have ridiculously large third party vote totals. Simply put Johnson will not get anywhere close to 10%.

Additionally the Likely Voter screens being used are heavily biased towards massive high-school educated white male turnout and every other demographic not turning out as much. Yeah the white angry men are out in force but I have zero doubt that plenty of people are going to go out and tell them to fuck off with the racist/sexist/homophobic bullshit that they and Trump have been peddling.

Yeah some relatively homogeneous states with lots of high-school educated white guys are going to be way tighter than they should be but the trend line seems remarkably steady. Yes there are long term fluctuations but short of a major event there isn't a lot Trump can do to close the gap.
posted by vuron at 9:06 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Should one even watch the debates, if one has already decided who to vote for?

If you intend to talk to possibly-undecideds, or if you want the chance to convince the "holding my nose and voting for Hillary" people that Hillary is not, in fact, just "not quite as bad" as Trump, but actually qualified for the position and brings both talent and experience - then watching the debate gives you the most current quotes/issues to bring into those discussions.

If you're avoiding contact with people who are waffling (which would be perfectly reasonable, if you can arrange that), then no, the debate is going to be Competent Hillary vs. Grandstanding Trump; the only real reason to watch is the potential of catching Trump's Biggest Fuckup Yet on live TV. There's a non-zero chance that he'll do or say something that puts the rest of his campaign into the "politics as usual" bucket, like physically attacking someone (whether that's Hillary or a debate mod), leaving the stage in a huff and refusing to finish, or going on an overtly racist, sexist rant full of words that will be bleeped out by the networks.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:06 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

I've got one half written. If the mods aren't doing their own I'll finish it up.

I'd propose posting draft posts in the body of the Meta thread so that whoever eventually does make the post can crowdsource it, but I am Not A Mod so y'know.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:07 AM on September 26, 2016

Should one even watch the debates, if one has already decided who to vote for?

Confession time: I almost never watch the debates. I'm not sure I wanted a single Obama debate in real time, because I didn't think the anxiety would be worth it to me. But this time, somehow I feel compelled to watch it. Either way, this is history, and I feel like when I'm old and grey, I will want to have been there experiencing this moment with other people around me.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:08 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

The important question is which Hamilton lyric will be the title for the next post? Have we used "they don't have a plan, they just hate mine!" yet?
posted by asteria at 9:10 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Just in: DC Circuit blocks proof-of-citizenship requirement on federal voter registration forms in KS, AL and GA
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:11 AM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]

Suggestion: Hey, turn around, bend over, I’ll show you where my shoe fits
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:11 AM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

The important question is which Hamilton lyric will be the title for the next post? Have we used "they don't have a plan, they just hate mine!" yet?

"Don't modulate the key and not debate with me"
posted by Aznable at 9:11 AM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]

I'm happy with whoever making a decent post with links to streams shortly before the debate starts, and the details aren't much of a worry. If you want to aim for it, CHT, I say go for it, and maybe mention that over in the MetaTalk as well just so anyone else watching close and considering dibs will know too.
posted by cortex at 9:13 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Should one even watch the debates, if one has already decided who to vote for?

hey man, this bingo card isn't going to fill out itself
posted by phunniemee at 9:16 AM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

Is anyone else just doing what they can to get through the day without acknowledging a horrible sense of impending doom in the back of their minds?

I know I am. I feel like I've been having a stretched out very mild panic attack ever since I woke up this morning.
posted by Tarumba at 9:16 AM on September 26, 2016 [16 favorites]

That registration case is interesting because of the ties between Brian Newby of the EAC and Kansas SoS and "voter-fraud" gobshite Kris Kobach.
posted by holgate at 9:16 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Not from Hamilton, but "Go away, batin'!" seems appropriate.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 9:17 AM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

I heard part of that Divided States NPR piece this morning. One of the Trump supporters was going to join a militia group for patriots to overthrow the government if HRC is elected.

I feel physically ill. Hold me?
posted by stolyarova at 9:19 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

The important question is which Hamilton lyric will be the title for the next post?

Couldn't we go West Wing and use "Game on, boyfriend!" instead?
posted by mightygodking at 9:20 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

@owillis: "fyi trump can lose a debate. it was too late for rubio but he won this."

Donald Trump vs. Marco Rubio - Debate Highlights 2/25/2016
posted by chris24 at 9:20 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Gizmodo: How to Stream Tonight's Presidential Debate For Free, No Cable Required.

I was under the impression that it wouldn't be necessary to resort to extraordinary streaming means to watch the debate if you owned a TV with an antenna. It's going to be aired on ABC/CBS/NBC as well as PBS. No cable <> No TV.
posted by Strange Interlude at 9:23 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm going to watch the debates because it will be the first time in my life I will see a woman debating an opponent for President of the United States in a general election (I was too young to remember Ferraro and that was VP anyway). There's no way I'm going to miss it even if she will be debating someone unworthy of the role.

Plus I'm going to be hanging out with the folks who I've been volunteering for and talking to possible new volunteers and supporters. Also, gah! I forgot my Clinton pin today!
posted by R343L at 9:24 AM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

I know, I feel like even if HRC wins we still have hit the point of no return. It's like Trump radicalized half the country and we can never reach them again.
posted by Tarumba at 9:25 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

I was under the impression that it wouldn't be necessary to resort to extraordinary streaming means to watch the debate if you owned a TV with an antenna.

I and a lot of other Youths that I know don't even have TVs anymore - we just watch TV on laptops. And some of my friends who do have TVs bought them pre-digital-transition, and they can't pick up broadcast channels anymore, so they watch everything through streaming apps via Roku or a gaming system.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:26 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm fairly sure the country can be de-radicalized quite quickly (we have had periods of Know Nothingism, the heyday of the Klan in the 20s, etc). However, I worry that we've seen our last fact-based election of any kind. And we may have hit a point of no return in terms of news media, in general.
posted by Sara C. at 9:27 AM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

I know, I feel like even if HRC wins we still have hit the point of no return. It's like Trump radicalized half the country and we can never reach them again.

Disagree. These are, for the most part, folks who haven't had the big bad happen to them. Or, they have, and they haven't seen the benefits of having the safety net. The country is full of Republicans who say, "I was against Obamacare until my daughter was born with CF." or I was against gay marriage until my son came out. These people are out there and they are worth the time and effort we put in to say, you matter and even though you voted against your own interests, Obamacare will cover your daughter.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:30 AM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]

The important question is which Hamilton lyric will be the title for the next post?

Not sure if it's relevant but my favorite part has always been the tear-inducing part near the end,

Wellll I'm X-Hams and I'm here to say
That I star in hist'ry in a major way
posted by beerperson at 9:31 AM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

Hamilton title idea, if it hasn't yet been done: "Ask him a question: it glances off, he obfuscates, he dances."
posted by Leslie Knope at 9:32 AM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]

chris24's post has a really good article.

TPM: The Great "Is It Really Close?" Debate

The 2012 vs 2016 poll charts are interesting.

Romney was leading for 20 days in October 2012.
posted by cashman at 9:34 AM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

Maine's Paul LePage released his binder of drug dealers. He'd said 90% were black, Hispanic. Most of them are white. [via @ddale8]
posted by melissasaurus at 9:35 AM on September 26, 2016 [41 favorites]

my thing about the post 9/11 feeling wasn't like *oh thousands of my dead neighbors* thing and the horror of all that but more like WTF country freedom fries and now we're invading a country for no good reason and I loathed this country.

I got used to thinking about how I loved MY president and MY Madame Secretary and hey guess what angrycat that time may be coming to an end.

It's hard to wrap one's mind around.
posted by angrycat at 9:35 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

The West Wing: "Crime. Boy, I don't know," is when I decided to kick your ass
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:35 AM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]

Here are some tax twitterers to follow who will be live-tweeting the debate.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:39 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

I hope you're right. I worry that it's not so much that it'll be de-radicalized, it's that it'll be buried again only to come back up like another goddamn Jason sequel.

When a baby starts screaming in an airplane, it can be hard to remember all the reasonable conversations that were taking place before the screeching started. Other babies may even take up the cry and make things worse. But it doesn't mean a majority of the people on the plane are babies, nor does it forbid the possibility of an eventual safe landing when you can flee into the airport.
posted by Celsius1414 at 9:43 AM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]

Here are some tax twitterers to follow who will be live-tweeting the debate.

At first I was bewildered by the possibility that there was some hip new slang meaning for "tax" until I eventually realized you were actually talking about taxation.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 9:44 AM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

I and a lot of other Youths that I know don't even have TVs anymore - we just watch TV on laptops. And some of my friends who do have TVs bought them pre-digital-transition, and they can't pick up broadcast channels anymore, so they watch everything through streaming apps via Roku or a gaming system.

I totally get that, and truth be told I'm basically the same way WRT consuming ~90% of my TV through Roku.

But at the same time I also see a lot of folks my age (mid-30s and 40s) who own perfectly functional digital sets and have been fooled by their local pay-TV monopoly into thinking that they have to have cable in order to watch live TV, not realizing all the stuff they can watch with a simple $20-$30 antenna.
posted by Strange Interlude at 9:45 AM on September 26, 2016

what if the babies have nuclear codes? HUH? WHAT THEN?
posted by angrycat at 9:45 AM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

In that scenario the baby on the plane isn't backed up by a professional cable news network and thousands of radio shock jocks across the country pushing an agenda of spreading their adult baby fetish.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:45 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

At first I was bewildered by the possibility that there was some hip new slang meaning for "tax" until I eventually realized you were actually talking about taxation.

Me, every morning when I sign into work.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:46 AM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

And some of my friends who do have TVs bought them pre-digital-transition, and they can't pick up broadcast channels anymore, so they watch everything through streaming apps via Roku or a gaming system.

They do make antennas for the digital signals. I think if the TV is too old you also have to get a converter box but you can get the whole set up for <$25.

There are other problems with digital that may make it unwatchable (the digital signals seem to be weaker than the analog ones were; instead of a bad signal giving a fuzzy screen now it just totally cuts out; etc.) but it is possible to have an old TV and still get the broadcast signal.
posted by LizBoBiz at 9:46 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

But no, the dry rot and decay of racism that permeates the very fabric of America? That'll still be around.

I agree. There is a reason it surfaces periodically. It never actually left. And the more power they have the more violent and radical they will be, so the harder it will be to make them go dormant again.

Trump has made hate mainstream.
posted by Tarumba at 9:47 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Profiles in courage: It Took Ted Cruz All of Two Months to Sell His Soul
posted by homunculus at 9:50 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

One of the Trump supporters was going to join a militia group for patriots to overthrow the government if HRC is elected.

I feel physically ill. Hold me?

Remember that these dudes are weekend warriors at best. The Malheur Gang was a pretty pathetic basket of deplorables.
posted by emjaybee at 9:54 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

These same dudes also said the same thing about Obama being elected. A few of them went truly off the deep end and killed people (I've told the story in these threads before about the guy who went on a rampage a couple blocks from my house and killed 3 cops in 2009). The vast majority of them will continue to clean their guns and film it for YouTube and meet with the rest of the 102nd Internet Commenting Battalion and distribute microaggressions on the rare occasion they actually meet and speak to people of color. Not ideal, but far from an insurgency.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:01 AM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

Randomness:

1. I had to cab it to work this morning due to some commuter stupidness, and on the FDR drive I saw one of the most aggressively pro-Trump cars I've ever seen. There were three Trump/Pence bumper stickers on it, along with four generic "Yay 'Murica" car magnets, an NRA car magnet, a 9/11 "Never Forget" decal on the passenger side door and a flag hooked up to a stick in the back seat.

2. Ample Hills Creamery, which I maintain is the best ice cream shop in New York City, has released two new flavors for the election - one for each candidate. Hillary Clinton's is a Mexican-hot-chocolate flavor (dark chocolate with chili and cinnamon) with chocolate chip cookie chunks; Trump's flavor is orange marshmallow with brownie chunks.

3. Ample Hills is also screening the debate at two of their Brooklyn locations, but I'll be going to watch at the best bar in the world instead, because it is only one block away from me and also because they will have beer.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:08 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

ugh orange and chocolate is too tasty

he should have been orange juice and baking soda toothpaste flavored
posted by stolyarova at 10:09 AM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

stolyarova: he should have been orange juice and baking soda toothpaste flavored

Nah: coffee and mint ice cream, to replicate the "cup of mud too soon after brushing teeth" sensation that ruins every morning.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:11 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Thanks cjelli for the transcript and analysis. Personally I think Rubio did win that. And for the reasons you state:

"Was that 'winning'? Rubio certainly had Trump on the defensive, called him out on not having details, and then called him out on trying to pass off a restatement of his initial premise as a followup. He forced Trump to pivot to personal attacks...and away from sounding like a statesmen...For all of Trump's posturing and bluster, Rubio was the one driving that conversation."

Defensive, resorting to personal attacks, showing his ignorance. And this win would be even more obvious for a general election audience rather than a Republican primary. If Clinton can do this to him, she does well tonight. And personally I think she's a better debater than Rubio.
posted by chris24 at 10:12 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

But baking soda toothpaste is snowy white and disgusting.
posted by stolyarova at 10:12 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

In light of new Monmouth poll results, could we use "But he shit the bed at the battle of Monmouth?"
posted by drezdn at 10:19 AM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

Is that a 'win'? He never got Trump to concede anything. Trump just pivoted away, directly into attacking Rubio directly for what Rubio was imply indirectly -- that Rubio 'knows nothing' and 'melts down' in a difficult moment. But that pivot, of course, worked, insofar as Trump did win the primary.

Looking at it my the perspective of a sort of "politics as usual frame", as I recall it, it was considered a "win" for Rubio because it revealed that Trump had no plan, had no answers, and was reduced to "pivoting" into a personal attack. It was one of the first examples of another candidate directly challenging Trump and not backing down or getting thrown off by Trump's belittling, but continuing to press for a meaningful answer. And take it for what it was; Rubio scored points on the exchange, but by this point in the primary, Rubio was flailing about anyways. It was a strategy that could have worked if somebody had grabbed it earlier and kept it up, and wasn't on stage with 10 other people fighting for airtime. It was a too little, too late moment. And we need to remember that Trump will never concede anything. Never. To look for that as a win condition is pointless; the "win" comes from a relentless attack that reveals his lack of plan and lack of depth on virtually any topic. At least to my eyes.

From a different perspective, Trump is playing a different game and to a different audience. We talk a lot about dogwhistles, but I think Trump has a completely different thing going on: the "dogwhistles" to his base and supporters is about being as loud and brash and a great deal of posturing. His base likely ate up that exchange with Rubio because it reinforced his image as a "tough guy" who doesn't need to know facts, just needs to be the toughest guy in the room.

This campaign seems to be more about image than substance, and if Clinton can puncture Trump's image, that's the "win". I think. Rationality is out the window; this is all about perspective and spin.
posted by nubs at 10:20 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

> "The important question is which Hamilton lyric will be the title for the next post?"

Lock up your daughters and horses!
posted by kyrademon at 10:28 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

oh my god, tear this dude apart.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:31 AM on September 26, 2016 [43 favorites]

You can bet lots of money that Team Clinton has "will never admit he was wrong, will never admit he said something that makes him look bad, will never admit he doesn't know something" in 60-point bold on its prep sheet, and has worked specifically on methods to highlight that and make him look... well, pathological. Because you're not going to get him to concede -- unless he does it as a planned performance -- but you can force him into fifteen ridiculous things in order to avoid doing so.
posted by holgate at 10:31 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

The important question is which Hamilton lyric will be the title for the next post?

"I have so much work to do."
posted by stet at 10:33 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Linked off of Joy Reid's twitter: How to Debate an Obnoxious Man, According to Three Women Who've Done It (a Lot). Soledad O'Brien, Joy Reid, and Jill Abramson on how to walk the tightrope of being a public woman.
posted by cashman at 10:33 AM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]

> oh my god, tear this dude apart.

This is precisely why I am watching the debate. Regardless of how the spin goes once the 90 minutes are up I will be able to revel in watching a Secretary Clinton dismantle the Orange Man to his face.
posted by Tevin at 10:34 AM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

I've been reading a bit more casually these days and can't tell the difference between Hamilton references and real things people are saying so just want to politely ask people to pull that back a little bit.
posted by zutalors! at 10:34 AM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

You know, when Cruz conceded the primary, effectively handing the nomination to Trump, I had this surreal, lurching feeling of "Holy shit. Hooollly shit. This is actually happening."

With the first debate happening in just eight hours, I'm experiencing the same feeling again.

42 more days.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:35 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Win this debate for Douglas Adams.
posted by drezdn at 10:37 AM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

From cashman's link: "I'd hear, "As Jerry said....," when I was the one who had made the comment. I usually stayed silent but steamed inside".

OMG this happens to me all the fucking time and I always felt embarrassed at my own internal anger and thought it was petty. The fact that a former editor of the NYT felt this way makes me feel so validated!
posted by Tarumba at 10:41 AM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

JUST IN: Lester Holt won't be allowed to fact check, but he will be allowed to look directly into the camera like Jim from The Office
posted by chris24 at 10:44 AM on September 26, 2016 [45 favorites]

"Thank you, Mr. Trump. That was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike an actual answer to the question."

I'd pay real money to somebody's Foundation if the moderator did the "what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul" bit.
posted by nubs at 10:47 AM on September 26, 2016 [27 favorites]

Win this debate for Douglas Adams.

We are so through the looking glass, I'm actually rooting for the Sub-Cyclic Normality Assert-i-Tron.
posted by whuppy at 10:50 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

In contrast to some of the bad polls from earlier that some were worried about:

Monmouth - National likely voters
4Way
Clinton: 46% (+4)
Trump: 42%

Florida Chamber of Commerce - FL likely voters
2Way
Clinton: 45% (+3)
Trump 42%

4Way
Clinton: 43% (+2)
Trump: 41%

HPU - NC Likely voters
4Way
Clinton: 43% (+1)
Trump: 42%

LORAS - Iowa likely voters
4Way
Clinton: 38%
Trump: 38%
posted by chris24 at 10:56 AM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

Tarumba: Trump has made hate mainstream.

Again. He has made hate mainstream again. Civil rights and related clashes have taken place since before our country was a country, and we (generally) survived. We had a civil war, brother literally fighting brother and all that, and our country survived. We voted for George W. twice, and we survived. We voted for our first Black President, also twice, and our country survived.

Change will come, conflicts will be faced, and we will survive. People have died, more people will die, but as a whole, we will survive.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:57 AM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]

Also, when hate is made public, it makes it harder for some to live, but it also makes it easier to address. Hate speech and worse, hate crimes, need to be seen to be believed, or you get idiots saying we're in a post-racism society. Sure, you'll get idiots who say "the Black President made this an issue," to which we can then say "No, our Black President addressed the issue."
posted by filthy light thief at 11:04 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

RNC chair @Reince says of Trump's lack of traditional debate prep: “He’s been through 14 season finales."

[real]
posted by chris24 at 11:04 AM on September 26, 2016 [19 favorites]

And Mark Burnett replies: "No, I got him through 14 season finales, and I'm not working for him anymore."
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:07 AM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]

How Trump Rides on Waves of Other People's Money, by Tim O'Brien, former Trump lawsuit victim:

Trump's MO around OPM in his early days was defined largely by his father, Fred, basically because Fred had a lot of M. While Trump frequently downplays the role his father played at the start of his business career, his dad was always there for him, wallet and Rolodex open.

"It has not been easy for me," Trump said at a town hall meeting in New Hampshire almost a year ago. "And you know I started off in Brooklyn, my father gave me a small loan of a million dollars.” In a subsequent interview, Trump described his father's financial support as amounting to nothing more than a "very, very small loan."

None of this is true, of course.

posted by zachlipton at 11:08 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

"He's been through 14 season finales"

That is... an amazing statement.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:12 AM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

Dave Weigel: Jill Stein being escorted to the place where she'll get arrested.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:12 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Stein was just on MSNBC doing an interview. Weird.
posted by cashman at 11:14 AM on September 26, 2016

Also, when hate is made public, it makes it harder for some to live, but it also makes it easier to address. Hate speech and worse, hate crimes, need to be seen to be believed, or you get idiots saying we're in a post-racism society.

You're talking about racism like it's just an error that a lot of people make, and they'll all stop being racist when they find out that they were wrong. But it's not a factual error (even though it feeds on them) - it's an ideological lens through which the world is interpreted. Historically, societies don't get less racist when a demagogue focuses and normalizes nativist rage against outsiders. They get worse.
posted by theodolite at 11:18 AM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

I might be a crazy person because this is what I expect to see on election day and this is the more conservative version.

And while the poll fluctuations are scary, I still believe the above.
posted by asteria at 11:18 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

I haven't been paying too much attention to the "now-cast" on fivethirtyeight.com...is today the first day it's had Trump at over 50%?
posted by uosuaq at 11:18 AM on September 26, 2016

> Additionally the Likely Voter screens being used are heavily biased towards massive high-school educated white male turnout and every other demographic not turning out as much.

Most polls screen for likely voters by checking whether they've voted in previous elections. Women and college-educated people vote at higher rates than other people, so they're more likely to be included in polls of likely voters. Young people who weren't old enough to vote in the last election or didn't vote because of logistical difficulties of voting while you're in college are excluded, so are people who previous afoul of laws designed to reduce minority voting. Older people and affluent people are also more likely to have voted in recent elections, so they're more likely to be included.

All in all, this means that polls of likely voters tend to favor Republicans relative to polls of registered voters or eligible voters, but not for the simplistic reasons you claimed. Unfortunately for Democrats, the voters in actual elections skew Republican for the same reasons voters in previous elections did. That's why voter registration and GOTV efforts are so important. And that's why a court ruling against North Carolina's discriminatory voter ID law might gain some Electoral College votes for Clinton in a state that polls have narrowly going for Trump; some people who previously had difficulty voting in NC will be able to now.
posted by nangar at 11:19 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

If he calls out trimp tonight it will be my new favorite thing about Lester Holt. (currently it's this, which to be fair he wasn't directly responsible for.)
posted by numaner at 11:22 AM on September 26, 2016

Also, when hate is made public, it makes it harder for some to live, but it also makes it easier to address. Hate speech and worse, hate crimes, need to be seen to be believed, or you get idiots saying we're in a post-racism society.

Yeah, I think I might have some bias because I work and live with people who escaped persecution (refugees), but as far as I know more public racism and discrimination generates a space for group mentality and eventually leads to things like ethnic cleansing.

Like I am sure some people might become more vocal about disagreeing with the trend, but the potential risks are terrible, so it doesn't seem worth it.
posted by Tarumba at 11:23 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fucking Politics, How Does It Work?
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:23 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

chris24: Defensive, resorting to personal attacks, showing his ignorance.

Has anyone suggested that Trump certainly has "Made America Grate Again" yet?
posted by wenestvedt at 11:25 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

RNC chair @Reince says of Trump's lack of traditional debate prep: “He’s been through 14 season finales."

Let it be remembered that the GOP fell to the unreal sociopathic illogic of reality television (via Trump) much faster and with far less struggle than it did to the mono-mythic glamour of Hollywood movies, by way of Reagan.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:25 AM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

Has anyone suggested that Trump certainly has "Made America Grate Again" yet?

I have seen a cheese shop with that sign!
posted by Tarumba at 11:25 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

@Carrie_Rachel (aka Carrie Brownstein): Pundits claiming the onus is on @HillaryClinton to prove she's a human tonight shows how far we’ve come in humanizing a monster like Trump
posted by mrzarquon at 11:30 AM on September 26, 2016 [43 favorites]

Debate Prep Comics from The Nib
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:30 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Today was NOT the day to run out of my antidepressant.
posted by threeturtles at 11:30 AM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

So, my prediction for tonight:

We will be initially disappointed. Trump will hit all sorts of Trumpian notes, sounding "strong" but vague, doing his dominance game and selling, selling. Clinton will be policy-oriented, land a few jabs, not be inspirational but certainly sound competent and well-reasoned.

Pundits will declare it a draw and therefore a win for Trump, because he has cleared the hurdle of looking "presidential" in a place where he doesn't belong. MeFi will faint.

But over the next few days it will become clear that voters were not amused with Trump and in fact felt strongly in favor of Clinton. Pundits will once again be surprised that many voters watch debates to watch the candidates think and make a reasoned decision, and Clinton's decision to speak to them rather than emit plumes of gaseous vapors will earn their respect.

The debate will stop the drift towards Trump that has been happening and this will carry on as a close election. Also, Trump's real dangerous nonsense will be in debate #2.
posted by argybarg at 11:37 AM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]

Oh my god the Nib has an app with a "basket of deplorables" emoji.
posted by emjaybee at 11:41 AM on September 26, 2016

I can predict anything I want, so I'm going to predict that she fucking destroys him. Why not.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:41 AM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]

Bill Kristol just predicted a clear Hilary win.

We are so fucked.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:43 AM on September 26, 2016 [39 favorites]

Bill Kristol just predicted a clear Hilary win.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by chris24 at 11:44 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

"He's been through 14 season finales"

I'm all for making this his 15th fucking finale.
posted by madamjujujive at 11:45 AM on September 26, 2016 [20 favorites]

For those who are interested, I found that Telemundo has English closed captioning. It looks like it might be a bit tricky for some TV setups but seems like it should work in general. A perspective from outside of the usual everyday cable news bubble is very welcome in my world at this point.
posted by feloniousmonk at 11:45 AM on September 26, 2016

I'm hoping that this just means Kristol is finally self-aware of his own shitty track record on predicting the future, which means that now it won't even work in reverse anymore.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:47 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

I have a headache that's too massive to stay up till 4am on a workday, but still feeling bad this will be the first time I miss a debate since 2008. I trust y'all will carry the flag though. I need to see the magic words "Clinton Nov. win probability: Bayesian 90%" soon or I'll eat every fattening foodstuff at home.

I just want to tell you good luck. We're all counting on you.
posted by ersatz at 11:48 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

> Bill Kristol just predicted a clear Hilary win.
We are so fucked.

NO! I need to double my vodka supplies.

Unless maybe this is him trying to bait the universe by trying to be wrong, in which case, game on, Mr. Kristol.
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:48 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Just posting these together so future gender studies professors don't have to go looking for separate tweets.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:52 AM on September 26, 2016 [42 favorites]

I mean, if there's any year where Kristol could be right, it would be this one.
posted by asteria at 11:53 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

If, during tonight's debate, Clinton uses the term 'I blame Obama' referring to progress, health care, avoiding the 2nd Great Depression, etc., I will donate $100 to her campaign. Or more, as I would do a couple shots if that happened.
posted by theora55 at 11:54 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

I have just returned from driving through parts of Real America (TM) this week on my way to and from visiting family in Florida. I was tremendously surprised by the paucity of Trump signs and bumper stickers as we passed through Ohio, West Virginia, Virginia, the Carolinas, and Georgia, and heartened by the presence of the lone Clinton sign that would pop up along some county road.

We live in a blue collar, inner ring suburb in the Rust Belt and the racial demographics of our city are rapidly changing. I have seen a handful of Trump signs in our neighborhood, including the one that was posted immediately above a sign advertising the presence of a Head Start preschool at that address and the Blue Lives Matter flag that I am counting as a de facto Trump sign. After waiting for over a month, my Clinton/Kaine yard sign and car magnets arrived, and I put them up as soon as we returned home.

One of our neighbors is an 8-year-old multiracial boy, who is terrified of Trump. He believes that his family will go to jail, that people will launch bombs at America, that his friends will be forced to move away. If seeing some white folks actively opposing Trump and working for Clinton is any comfort to him, I am happy burn our social capital with the older, white, former union workers in my neighborhood whom I suspect harbor Trump sympathies.


besides we are the young family that helps dig the old folks' driveways out after a snow so maybe, hopefully, some of them will rethink their reflexive distrust of liberals
posted by palindromic at 11:54 AM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]

Bill Kristol just predicted a clear Hilary win.

Game over, man. Game over!
posted by nubs at 11:54 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh my god the Nib has an app with a "basket of deplorables" emoji.

This is so amazing. I AM IN LOVE WITH THIS.
posted by Jalliah at 11:55 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Bill Kristol has reached the final, most advanced level of being wrong, where it is indistinguishable from being right.
posted by maxsparber at 11:55 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

I immediately checked to see if Dick Morris had made a prediction that would counteract Kristol's. And while he has a post up on his site, no way I'm watching him for 6 minutes to find out.
posted by chris24 at 11:57 AM on September 26, 2016

I think he should be declared the winner of the first one. It'll be better to frame her as the come back kid. I can handle a few weeks of Trump Is Winning being the narrative.
posted by zutalors! at 12:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Atlantic: How Trump Lowered Expectations for the First Debate
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think he should be declared the winner of the first one.

Personally, I want to nip this Trump "momentum" and D freakout in the bud. I like that people who thought he had no chance are being woke up, but I'd prefer a close but steady and clear lead. If I can't have a blowout.
posted by chris24 at 12:04 PM on September 26, 2016

"He's been through 14 season finales"
I'm all for making this his 15th fucking finale.

I'm hoping his candidacy gets the Quantum Leap treatment—cancelled prematurely with little fanfare and no real sense of closure other than a cryptic on-screen caption that reads "Donald Trump never returned home."
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [21 favorites]

Also, when I returned home and opened up my RSS feed, there were 4500 unread posts, so I just sort of silently clicked 'All Read' and resigned myself to not having an encyclopedic knowledge of the past 9 days of news.

This unwitting news detox made me feel neither better nor worse about the world.
posted by palindromic at 12:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think he should be declared the winner of the first one. It'll be better to frame her as the come back kid. I can handle a few weeks of Trump Is Winning being the narrative.


You might be right, he could get cocky and start fucking up nonstop. At the same time losing might make him furious and he could also start fucking up nonstop. It's a win-win!
posted by Tarumba at 12:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Dick Morris' video begins with:

Whenever a debate is coming up and takes place, the media always focuses on "who won the debate?" But that's not what I look for, and not what most political consultants look for. We look for what is the long-term strategic implication of the debate as it fits into the campaign plans of each of the two candidates.

So, he's starting with a claim that it doesn't matter who 'wins;' this is just one maneuver in a larger campaign. And in some senses, that's correct... but mostly it comes across as weaseling.

He then goes on to say that both candidates come in with lowered expectations: "Hillary because of her health; Trump because of his penchant for crazy rhetoric."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hillary was sick about 2000 years ago in Election Days. But I'm all for Trump and his team going into this expecting a fight with a lurching, bleary-eyed, half-conscious wreck of a woman, so whatever.
posted by invincible summer at 12:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

theodolite: You're talking about racism like it's just an error that a lot of people make, and they'll all stop being racist when they find out that they were wrong. But it's not a factual error (even though it feeds on them) - it's an ideological lens through which the world is interpreted. Historically, societies don't get less racist when a demagogue focuses and normalizes nativist rage against outsiders. They get worse.

While I'm no student of history, I don't see this as the moment when Trump becomes a full demagogue, because I still don't believe there's really the momentum and support behind him and/or nativist rage. If he came sweeping in on that, and didn't roll through the GOP primaries simply as the loudest voice in the room, I'd be worried. Doubly so if the US was facing tough economic times for all. Instead, he won round one on a crowded floor, where no one stood out against his bluster. Now he's facing the second-least-liked candidate, and he's been beating his drum of fear and calamity, while she's talking about unity and improving the good things we have.

Also, he's campaigning for himself, not for a cause. The racists with him are not multiplying, but I recognize they're getting bolder because of the normalization, but at the same time plenty of people are now talking about the racism as just that - racism, not just "someone's opinions."
posted by filthy light thief at 12:14 PM on September 26, 2016

Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition
posted by madamjujujive at 12:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

I can handle a few weeks of Trump Is Winning being the narrative.

I can't. I really, really can't. Like, you guys, remember the post-credits scene of Captain America: Civil War where Bucky Barnes gets frozen in cryostasis again and it was sad and you're like, "poor Bucky :( I wish my precious deadly cyborg assassin didn't have to get shoved in a freezer for plot reasons" (for values of "you" that include those of us who are Overinvested in the MCU). Well now I watch that scene with naked longing to join Bucky in his sweet, sweet, frozen oblivion until this godforsaken election is over. I KNOW I SHIT TALKED THIS LIFE CHOICE BEFORE, BUCKY, BUT I TAKE IT ALL BACK. LET ME IN YOUR FREEZER.
posted by yasaman at 12:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [31 favorites]

I would very much like her to say something like, 'I understand why Trump won't release his tax returns; it must be very embarrassing for a business magnate to earn less than two lifelong public servants', then sprout a pair of enormous hawk wings and soar over the auditorium while beatboxing an oddly moving rendition of 'Flight of the Valkyries.'
posted by palindromic at 12:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [36 favorites]

Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition

Hey Greens, tell me again how Clinton is just as bad or worse.
posted by chris24 at 12:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [55 favorites]

> Trump Picks Top Climate Skeptic to Lead EPA Transition

He's literally trolling liberals. That's his entire candidacy. And 42% of the country loves it.
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

I'm hoping his candidacy gets the Quantum Leap treatment—cancelled prematurely with little fanfare and no real sense of closure other than a cryptic on-screen caption that reads "Donald Trump never returned home."

Oh boy!

Though if we're going with ignominious television endings, I'd prefer Trump die on his way back to his home planet, leaving his dumbass supporters wondering why they never got to the fireworks factory.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

Hey Greens, tell me again how Clinton is just as bad or worse.

You're not looking at the big picture! Clinton will just mean more of the same incremental improvements in policy at best! Once the dumpster fire of a Trump presidency takes hold everyone will surely come to their senses, see that we're right and elect Stein 2020 in a landslide!
posted by Talez at 12:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

Stein's Green Party: Sometimes you have to destroy a planet to save it.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

Another Debate Cartoon (because we DESPERATELY need cute cats)
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

... then sprout a pair of enormous hawk wings ...

The New York Times would no doubt nickname her 'War Hawk Clinton' afterwards.
posted by zarq at 12:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

The New York Times would no doubt nickname her 'War Hawk Clinton' afterwards.

What do you mean afterwards?
posted by Talez at 12:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

I would very much like her to say something like, ....

I'd like her to have a simple catch phrase like, "Again, it doesn't seem like you know what you're talking about." Repeat with slight variations over and over.
I'd also like Trump or the moderator to bring up Bill's infidelity, so she can say something like:

"I don't understand why my husband's behavior is an issue, since Donald and I are the candidates. But since you asked, I have never committed adultery. Donald, you have committed adultery, again and again. I'm really curious to hear how you justify that."

posted by msalt at 12:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]

I am totally OK with Clinton being the Sorceress of Eternia
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Stop the Trump Train

Intense new ad from Priorities USA.
posted by chris24 at 12:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

@petridishes: finally the whole country will watch as a woman stands politely listening to a loud man's bad ideas about the field she spent her life in
posted by zombieflanders at 12:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [103 favorites]

This sounds familiar. Were there cameras at my partner's father's house last week? Because he had some ideas about how to handle Zika virus.
posted by palindromic at 12:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

God, I hate Chuck Todd so much. What is your fucking problem!!??
posted by Sophie1 at 12:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]

In case you haven't yet decided what you're drinking tonight [ad]
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Worst case scenario: Clinton wins the debate handily but the media waffle and say Trump succeeded by looking more "presidential" than expected.

Best case scenario: Clinton wins the debate handily and Trump loses his shit on camera and doesn't show up to the next two scheduled debates.

Likely scenario: Clinton wins the debate handily but the media are divided on who was better. Dems complain bitterly, while Repubs complain bitterly. Metafilter complains bitterly.
posted by rocket88 at 12:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]

Trump Invites Benghazi Survivor, Gold Star Mom To Attend Monday Debate

Oh, Trump, you're just the douchiest.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

He's behind where McCain and Romney were at this same date.

Dunno why people think this. On Sep 26 2012 Obama was ahead of Romney in the RCP average by exactly 4 points, 48.6 to 44.6. On Sep 26 2008 Obama was ahead of McCain by just over 4 points, 47.9 to 43.7. By comparison, Clinton is ahead nationally by roughly 1.5 to 2 points today.

It's a much closer race, particularly in the Electoral College, than at the same time in 2008 and 2012. I don't know where people are getting the idea the opposite is true.
posted by Justinian at 12:42 PM on September 26, 2016

Wow, the PEC Clinton win probability has gone waaaay up, as has the Meta-Margin. 1.8 % yesterday and 2.4% today.
posted by peacheater at 12:42 PM on September 26, 2016

Is this enough? Can we launch a campaign to get him to resign and give MTP to Joy Reid now?
posted by schadenfrau at 12:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah I think the PEC margin just picked up those national polls a few days ago showing Clinton +5 or +7. It tends to react much more slowly than 538. This is either a feature or a bug depending on your viewpoint. It'll probably fall back down in a couple days when it picks up the awful CO and PA polls from today... unless the good Florida poll that just came out balances those out?
posted by Justinian at 12:45 PM on September 26, 2016

I want a siren style red light with a ship horn to go HONNNNNK whenever Trump lies.
posted by Tarumba at 12:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

To reiterate something from the middle of last night when most reasonable people were actually asleep, Florida is worth 29 electoral votes. PA is 20. Colorado is 9. 20+9 is coincidentally enough 29, exactly what Florida counts. So they can save us from ourselves if we shit the bed in PA or CO or both.

Florida, I will never mock you again if you come through this year. I promise.
posted by Justinian at 12:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

new NBC/Survey Monkey tracking poll, two-way race: Clinton 51%, Trump 44%. Clinton margin w/likely votes up 2 points from last week

new NBC/Survey Monkey poll: Clinton 45%, Trump 40%, Johnson 10%, Stein 3%. Clinton's 5-point margin w/likely voters unchanged from last week
posted by chris24 at 12:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Likely scenario

Oh, I think it is extremely likely that this is the only debate we will get. Trump isn't up against a bunch of Conservative also-rans, perhaps the worst collection of potential candidates I have ever seen, appearing in front of a sympathetic audience.

Trump is going up against one of the most experienced politicians in my lifetime, a woman who has been preparing for this debate seriously, and has decades of experience dealing with noisy, obnoxious men who want to destroy her.

Whatever curve the media wants to grade on, this will not be a pleasant experience for Trump. And he's a crybaby, and will declare the whole thing unfair, and just refuse to do it again. He just randomly declared he was done debates in the primary back in March, and he hasn't been too interested in this debate, so I expect he will just decide it's no fun and he doesn't want to do it anymore.
posted by maxsparber at 12:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]

PEC doesn't use national polls though since they are effectively useless (because we don't vote nationally). Sam Wang depends solely on the state polls and the state poll median values are staying remarkably level.

That's the problem with focusing too much on any one poll because there are always fluctuations and distortions in the data. Focusing on the median value reduces the impact of any one poll on the values.

In contrast 538 is not only giving different polls different values and giving more recent ones higher value he is also putting in some estimates for a house effect on some of the pollsters. In some cases that's effectively moved polling from being +x Clinton to +x Trump (I assume the reverse also happens but it seems less noticeable).
posted by vuron at 12:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Stop the Trump Train

Intense new ad from Priorities USA.

Hey, I thought to myself, I recognize that footage from somewhere
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Just posting these together so future gender studies professors don't have to go looking for separate tweets.

CLINTON'S TASKS TONIGHT
* Release detailed plan of first 100 days in office
* Come off as intelligent and charismatic without, you know, being bitchy about it
* Give the media at least three (but no more than four) "you're no Jack Kennedy" style zingers

TRUMP'S TASKS TONIGHT
* Show up
* Tie shoes (or at least one of them)
* Mention at least one concrete policy, UNLESS the policy is secret or so tremendous that we wouldn't believe it
posted by tonycpsu at 12:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]

Dunno why people think this. On Sep 26 2012 Obama was ahead of Romney in the RCP average by exactly 4 points

I'm assuming they're going by length of time after the convention? In 2012, the DNC was in early September, the 1st debate was less than a month later. This year, the time between the DNC and the 1st debate is about six weeks. If you were to move the 2012 timeline two weeks further, Obama was ±1 point in the polls.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah I think the PEC margin just picked up those national polls a few days ago showing Clinton +5 or +7. It tends to react much more slowly than 538. This is either a feature or a bug depending on your viewpoint. It'll probably fall back down in a couple days when it picks up the awful CO and PA polls from today... unless the good Florida poll that just came out balances those out?
I think PEC doesn't use national polls right? Which is part of the reason it lags 538 - since state polls generally lag national polls.
posted by peacheater at 12:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

With all the talk of electronic ballots being vulnerable to hacks, has anyone really explored the potential for outside manipulation of poll results? I assume the stringency of security protocols in place varies from organization to organization.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:53 PM on September 26, 2016

Florida, I will never mock you again if you come through this year. I promise.

Florida Man Saves America, coming to theaters November 8th!
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

I said it up earlier in the thread but I am waiting with great anticipation for the all-to brief second when Mr Trump's eyebrow makeup cracks ever so slightly and the camera zooms to his eyes and you see him realize, suddenly and with great clarity, "Oh - shit."
posted by Tevin at 1:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think PEC doesn't use national polls right? Which is part of the reason it lags 538 - since state polls generally lag national polls.

Good point. Maybe the decent Florida polling really did outweigh the CO and PA polling then.
posted by Justinian at 1:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

A guy in Houston shot up a mall earlier today while wearing Nazi paraphernalia. Nine people wounded but no one dead except the shooter. Feel free to flag this if it's not right for the thread but, geez.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]

I wish I could hide that garbage LA Times / USC tracking poll when I look at RCP. Every day. Every goddamn day it sits there at like Trump +4 and I know its a garbage poll that has all kinds of methodological oddities measuring enthusiasm rather than pure vote and so on and I just want it gone. But it sits there, every day, taunting me. Trump +4. Trump +5. It is my white whale.
posted by Justinian at 1:05 PM on September 26, 2016

Trump +4. Trump +5. It is my white whale. males, non-college educated, ages 35-50.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Given the vendor with a Nazi flag next to a Trump flag at the PA state fair, Houston seems prett relevant.
posted by schadenfrau at 1:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

MORE AMERICANS EXPECTED TO SELF-MEDICATE THAN FOR ANY OTHER DEBATE IN HISTORY
posted by you're a kitty! at 1:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

TRUMP'S TASKS TONIGHT

* Not shit pants on live TV
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

@davidehrlich: tonight, we are pretty much sending Hillary Clinton to drill into a giant asteroid & nuke it from the inside before it can destroy the earth
posted by chris24 at 1:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [67 favorites]

Trump, Trump supporters, voting for Trump, etc is basically 'rolling coal' all over the American political system.
posted by The otter lady at 1:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [21 favorites]

Today's argument for the Oxford Comma:

Clinton invited several people to the debate, including Mark Cuban, a 9/11 survivor and a domestic abuse survivor.

Poor Mark Cuban - I had no idea...
posted by stolyarova at 1:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [91 favorites]

I want a siren style red light with a ship horn to go HONNNNNK whenever Trump lies.

That light would be flashing so much it would be causing seizures.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

HOLT: Mrs. Clinton, what's the solution for the Gaza Strip? You have 60 seconds, & Trump is gunna interrupt you about 7 times
HRC:
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

The otter lady: Trump, Trump supporters, voting for Trump, etc is basically 'rolling coal' all over the American political system.

Yup, pretty accurate. Spewing extra pollution because "fuck you, environmentalists," not realizing they're living in the same damned environment that those "hippie wimps" are trying to save.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:28 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

Trump's police advisor fired for repeatedly trying to run people down.

Retired police officer Vincent Caldara last year pleaded not guilty to a charge of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon for allegedly, intentionally ramming a former colleague with his car, leaving the colleague with serious physical injuries and over $200,000 in medical bills, according to The Guardian.[...]

In another incident, a woman sued Caldara for driving his Harley-Davidson motorcycle into her, causing her serious physical harm.
posted by fomhar at 1:29 PM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]

But he only hires the "best people," believe me.
posted by stolyarova at 1:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump's police advisor fired for repeatedly trying to run people down.

Where does he find these people?
posted by Tarumba at 1:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

"At last," thinks homicidal racist Glenn Reynolds, "there's a place for me after all."
posted by zombieflanders at 1:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

The man tasked with chairing Donald Trump’s law enforcement coalition in Florida and flying his running mate Mike Pence to rallies was dismissed from his pilot job after The Guardian revealed last week he was allegedly involved in two violent crimes.
...
Caldara appeared with Trump at an event in Fort Myers as recently as last week, and spoke on his behalf at a campaign event in Cocoa Beach earlier in September, where he praised the real estate mogul as the “law and order candidate.” Though the campaign declined to tell The Guardian whether Caldara still worked for the law enforcement coalition, all references to his involvement have been stripped from the Florida Trump campaign’s social media accounts. Pence’s press secretary told the publication that Caldara was not a paid employee of the campaign.

Fired from which job now?
posted by filthy light thief at 1:33 PM on September 26, 2016

The man tasked with chairing Donald Trump’s law enforcement coalition in Florida
Though the campaign declined to tell The Guardian whether Caldara still worked for the law enforcement coalition, all references to his involvement have been stripped from the Florida Trump campaign’s social media accounts.

I missed the florida bit, thought he was head of some national committee. Still a funny story in that horrifying way that we've all come to know so well.
posted by fomhar at 1:39 PM on September 26, 2016

We are having a Presidential Debate/Monday Night Football Simulcast at our place tonight. Super torn on which to mute, because I need big nights from Julio and Hillary to keep my American dream alive.
posted by palindromic at 1:40 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

Sorry, I didn't mean to be snarky. But I agree, he sure has some huuuge pricks on his side. Picks. I mean picks.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:45 PM on September 26, 2016

MORE AMERICANS EXPECTED TO SELF-MEDICATE THAN FOR ANY OTHER DEBATE IN HISTORY
As I've mentioned before, my parents are Trumpsters (they've been superfans of Limbaugh/Coulter for years and love when people troll liberals; they inhabit a different reality in which Obama is the worst president ever). This election has been my own personal hell; it feels like reliving Family Thanksgiving 2002 every minute of every day (when I was a strident anti-war activist and hadn't yet learned to just FIAMO at the dinner table). All the therapy I've had in the past 15 years and the complex boundaries I've constructed in order to avoid going full no contact are predicated on being able to shut out their distorted worldview; to avoid any topic that touches politics/society/justice -- to take a wide berth in order to prevent the gaslighting attempts and shield myself from the inevitably racist and sexist arguments. And now their worldview is being legitimized on a national scale and is unavoidable. Every interview with Kellyanne Conway is like trying to talk to my mother; Giuliani sounds like he's getting talking points from my father. Hell yeah I'll be medicated for the debate, just as I am for every Thanksgiving dinner.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]

Fahrenthold's new story is finally up, addressing why other people keep giving to the Trump Foundation: Trump directed $2.3 million owed to him to his charity instead:

Donald Trump’s charitable foundation has received approximately $2.3 million from companies that owed money to Trump or one of his businesses but were instructed to pay Trump’s tax-exempt foundation instead, according to people familiar with the transactions.

In cases where he diverted his own income to his foundation, tax experts said, Trump would still likely be required to pay taxes on the income. Trump has refused to release his personal tax returns. His campaign said he paid income tax on one of the donations, but did not respond to questions about the others.

posted by zachlipton at 1:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [30 favorites]

I am buying myself a cupcake on my way home as my personal reward for not yelling at the Gary Johnson people who are handing out leaflets in front of my workplace.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

I am buying myself a cupcake on my way home as my personal reward for not yelling at the Gary Johnson people who are handing out leaflets in front of my workplace.

Just tell em the sun is going to envelop the earth anyway, so why bother even voting for Johnson
posted by Existential Dread at 1:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [22 favorites]

If you live in a very red area, the Johnson people might be trying to get reluctant Trumpers off the ledge. Easier than convincing them to vote for HRC.
posted by stolyarova at 1:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think rather than yelling, I'd be asking the Johnson leafletters how the work on their basement apartment where they're going to be hiding the inevitable fugitives from Trump "justice" is going. Oh, that's not a thing you are doing? You were just going to let this happen then go on your merry way none the worse for wear with no sacrifices made and no fucks given? Awesome, good to know how willing you are to go to the barricades for civil liberties.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:53 PM on September 26, 2016

This new Fahrenthold story is interesting, because it closes the loop on the Trump Foundation racket; we now have a full cycle. Trump does stuff he's supposed to get paid for, but arranges for the Foundation to be paid instead. In general, this should still count as taxable income to Trump (under IRS "assignment of income" rules), but it's presumably likely he didn't pay taxes on all of it. Then he uses the Foundation's money to do stuff like settle legal problems for his businesses like the flagpole and the hole-in-one scam, buy ads for his businesses, and, due to an alleged clerical error, make a political donation that benefits his business.

That's self-dealing on both sides: the money coming in is just an extension of Trump's own bank account and a chunk of the money going out is just an extension of things Trump would pay for out of his own bank account.
posted by zachlipton at 1:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]

Fahrenthold's new story is finally up, addressing why other people keep giving to the Trump Foundation: Trump directed $2.3 million owed to him to his charity instead:

Called it! I fucking called it!
posted by Talez at 1:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]

As melissasaurus has noted in this thread, "assignment of income" comes into play here. Also, quoting from upthread, this remains unanswered:

"One thing that might boost the coverage of this is that the scandal also implicates all of the donors who diverted Trump payments to the foundation. E.g., how did NBC claim the $500K donation on its returns?"

And it looks like Fahrenthold caught Boris Epshteyn in a terrible bullshitty lie after Epshteyn thought he had the better of him, presented additional reporting and statements by Trump, and Epshteyn and Hope Hicks couldn't get their stories straight while bravely bravely running away.

Can they just give him the Pulitzer already in case bad things happen and Trump abolishes journalism?
posted by holgate at 1:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]

Holy nerves and butterflies batman.

My body and brain is having a flashback to what it felt like before I had to do public debates during elections. I'm having sympathy/empathy pangs big time. I'm sure Hillary being a million time more experienced than I ever was has it under control but I keep going back to how I'd feel as the hour got closer and closer.
posted by Jalliah at 1:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

That all sounds super shady if not downright criminal. I'd be excited about it if I thought there was any chance Trump would get in trouble for it, even if he loses the election.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Alexandra Petri: finally the whole country will watch as a woman stands politely listening to a loud man's bad ideas about the field she spent her life in
posted by gladly at 2:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]

The new Fahrenthold piece is really great. The explanation of the "ignorance is a defense to tax evasion" is a little more simplistic than reality, but given Trump's "draw out litigation forever and ever" strategy, it doesn't really matter whether they could get him on tax evasion - he'd be long dead and the money would be long hidden before he'd see any consequences.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

I want a siren style red light with a ship horn to go HONNNNNK whenever Trump lies.

"Good, 'cause I got a hot date tonight..."
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

This new Fahrenthold story is interesting, because it closes the loop on the Trump Foundation racket; we now have a full cycle.

One missing link still: we don't know how the donors classified their donations. NBC Universal has the power to reveal whether it treated the $500k as deductible. Comedy Central can do the same for its $400k roast fee.
posted by holgate at 2:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

I hope someone investigates it from NBC's perspective as well. I'm not well-versed on what constitutes a risk that must be disclosed on a 10K or investor call, but I can guarantee their tax lawyers are writing opinions right now on whether they have to be worried about how they reported the payment.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

Albert Burneko at Deadspin: You Are a Fact Checker:

A simple truth is being swallowed up by abstract categories and terms of art—“fact check” and “moderator” and “journalist” and “debate” and “candidate” and so on—here. Powerful people will be speaking, and less powerful people will be paying attention to them. The powerful people will advance self-serving fictions—they will lie. These lies may be outright and knowing falsehoods, or involve a dishonestly authoritative pose masking a shaky grasp of facts, or be artful sidesteps posed as actual answers to questions. When a lie is told, someone will recognize that it is a lie. That person will have a platform for pointing out that it was a lie. That opportunity will imply a moral duty—not as a “moderator” or a “journalist,” but as a human being with a brain and the capacity for critical thought and honesty—to point out the lie, so that other people who have not identified the lie will not be fooled by the lie. If that person chooses, instead, to stay silent, out of a sense of loyalty to one of the powerful people or responsibility to the made-up protocols of a made-up role (“moderator,” say), that person is choosing to be a party to the lie. That person would then be advancing a self-serving fiction—a lie—of his own: that the responsibilities of political loyalty or to a made-up role or whatever overrule his moral duty as a human being to the truth.

posted by palindromic at 2:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

And Tom Scocca at Deadspin: What Will White People Say About How Trump Does In The Debate?:

All the anxious analysis going on right now, about expectations and fact-checking and tactics, has very little to do with the question of which candidate should be president. Nothing that happens tonight will change the fact that Hillary Clinton is an experienced and largely competent public servant, committed to a broadly palatable policy agenda (disclosure: I’m personally connected to some of her policy work), while Donald Trump is a corrupt, race-baiting baby-man whose only defense against charges that he’s a pathological liar is that he’s too ignorant to know which facts he’s lying about.

Most Americans—or rather, most kinds of Americans—know this. Black people, Asian people, and Hispanic people have long since recognized that Donald Trump was absurdly unqualified to be president in the first place, and that everything he’s done since has been further disqualification. Yet Trump is still close enough to Hillary Clinton in the polls that the press is trying to come up with reasons why that is so, and why tonight’s debate is so pivotal.

The reason why Trump is running a competitive race is very simple: White people would like to vote for a racist idiot. The presidential race will be determined by the question of whether white people merely have a mild desire to vote for a racist idiot, or an overwhelming desire to vote for a racist idiot.

posted by palindromic at 2:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]

You Are a Fact Checker

always my least favorite Choose Your Own Adventure book tbh
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [41 favorites]

Metafilter: Complains Bitterly
posted by ZeusHumms at 2:14 PM on September 26, 2016

From that Deadspin article:

But the ongoing and singular appeal of Trump doesn’t really fit that sympathetic argument. The white working class is not somehow more working class than the rest of the working class, and the rest of the working class is planning to vote for Clinton.

Precisely.

Not to mention that Trump does best among people who are not in fact on the bottom economically - he does best among the people who are the usual fascist symps, badly-educated people with enough money to make them greedy. It's not the most working class working class people who are at issue here.
posted by Frowner at 2:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [21 favorites]

Fahrenthold's reporting has motivated me to actually subscribe to an actual newspaper since, roughly, the WWW. That kind of work needs supporting.

fully realizing that I am part of the problem and that my behavior for the past many years has helped cause the paucity of actual, investigative reporting. How was I able to find the money to afford this subscription? Easy, I cancelled my contribution to NPR.
posted by Fezboy! at 2:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [15 favorites]

So I'm doing some coding courses during my employment down time. Just started one today about making a basic HTML5 game. You're a dude that is running around shooting monsters. I've made some changes. It's going to be a dudette, going to stick Trumps face on the monster model and my weapon is going to be a gun that shoots facts and the word 'liar' at him.

It already is feeling very cathartic.
posted by Jalliah at 2:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

@RikerGoogling

what time is the dukat janeway debate

posted by stolyarova at 2:25 PM on September 26, 2016 [26 favorites]

Given the general decline in newspaper audience numbers, do any of the newspaper endorsements still have value and weight?
posted by ZeusHumms at 2:26 PM on September 26, 2016

For President? Marginal at best. For local stuff, yes.
posted by Justinian at 2:27 PM on September 26, 2016

I've never really cared about a Presidential newspaper endorsement, but I do look to them (both big paper and local alt-weekly) for local offices and initiatives, along with other sources. We've got a ton of stuff to vote for in California, and endorsements for things like school board and community college board are quite helpful. In the Presidential race, I wonder how much weight a "don't vote for Trump" endorsement from a normally right-leaning paper carries; maybe it's enough to wake a few people up.
posted by zachlipton at 2:30 PM on September 26, 2016

Fahrenthold's reporting has motivated me to actually subscribe to an actual newspaper since, roughly, the WWW. That kind of work needs supporting.

I find it hilarious (in a sobbing-but-also-crying way) the way other media outlets are reporting on Fahrethold's investigative process. Like "wow, he's got this legal pad, and he calls people, and asks questions, and tracks down information. It's this unique new thing and people are obsessed with watching it play out on twitter." Um, no, actually, other media people, this is what journalism - your supposed profession - actually looks like. People are interested and follow him and read his articles because he's actually doing what journalists are supposed to do. But Chuck Todd and friends are all like "New 'Journalism' Fad Going Viral with Youths, story at 11."
posted by melissasaurus at 2:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [52 favorites]

With all the talk of electronic ballots being vulnerable to hacks, has anyone really explored the potential for outside manipulation of poll results? I assume the stringency of security protocols in place varies from organization to organization.

Depends on what you mean by "outside" manipulation. Ever since electronic voting machines became widespread in 2000, they've been wide open to tampering by unscrupulous or incompetent election officials and anyone with even a little technical inclination. I'd look at them first before coming up with another wild-eyed "omg RUSSIANS!!!" theory.
posted by indubitable at 2:38 PM on September 26, 2016

Hillary Clinton with Hamish & Andy (2010)
Asking Hillary Clinton the big questions! (followup in 2013)
posted by kirkaracha at 2:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

That's self-dealing on both sides: the money coming in is just an extension of Trump's own bank account and a chunk of the money going out is just an extension of things Trump would pay for out of his own bank account.

The Ebers thing is new reporting. You could maybe maybe finagle something out of the Comedy Central thing as a fee for his time waived in return for a donation, though Trump's own words on the roast donation get in the way there. Maybe out of NBC coughing up for all of the "charity" promises in The Apprentice, but that's even more marginal.

But Ebers is an event fixer and ticket scalper, and Fahrenthold says he "bought goods and services — including tickets — from Trump or his businesses." A lot harder to say "oh, no tangible value" there.
posted by holgate at 2:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

wild-eyed "omg RUSSIANS!!!" theory.

How far into the sand does your head have to be to ignore Russia's attempts to influence the election?
posted by asteria at 2:43 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

I won’t be able to watch the debate tonight because it will give me a heart attack, but I hope someone will notice if Trump is still wearing a tie that is too long, and will then also notice if anyone in the media comments on it.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

This HRC parody article from July popped up on my feed again, and I found it to be comforting in advance of the debate, so I'm sharing with others in the hopes that it does the same for you:

Let Me Remind You Fuckers Who I Am by "Hillary Clinton"
posted by melissasaurus at 2:46 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

Hillary should just get up at the debates and say "Donald, if you release your tax returns and there's no sign of tax avoidance I will abandon my candidacy".
posted by Talez at 2:47 PM on September 26, 2016

Huh? No.
posted by agregoli at 2:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

Fahrenthold's reporting has motivated me to actually subscribe to an actual newspaper since, roughly, the WWW. That kind of work needs supporting.

I did the same thing this morning. I thought, 'hey I need to support this with some actual cash.' Ends up they have a deal on for 1 dollar a month for the next two months which is cool and all but kinda funny because I was prepared to pay more.
posted by Jalliah at 2:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

You could maybe maybe finagle something out of the Comedy Central thing as a fee for his time waived in return for a donation.

No, you can't. Trump could simply waive his fee, but he can't tell the network what to do with the money they saved. He can't tell them to give it to charity -- any charity, because that is directing their spending. He has control of their spending which means it he has constructively received payment.

He could waive his fee and the network could use it for anything they want, like bonuses for the executives. But Trump cannot instruct them to use it for charity.
posted by JackFlash at 2:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

Yeah, the Russian thing is not exactly a crazy conspiracy theory.
posted by thefoxgod at 2:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Best case scenario: Clinton wins the debate handily and Trump loses his shit on camera and doesn't show up to the next two scheduled debates.

That's pretty good, but here's what I think is the best case scenario that's at all, like, physically possible.

So imagine the beginning, they come out and are near each other for the shaking hands or whatnot. AND THERE IS A LOUD COMMOTION! A DISTURBANCE! And, as the Secret Service people rush around if they're not too drunk this time, Trump literally, physically, in real life cowers behind Clinton. Who pats him on his little head. Also he has visibly pooped himself. In a minute it will turn out that it was just someone in the audience having a medical incident of some sort -- like choking and panicking, or having a seizure, but they're okay now.

I mean, I would suggest that the classic Dead Zone baby-shield is the best case scenario, but where would Trump get the baby? I don't think I could convince you that he travels with several babies in his coat just in case he is attacked. Though many have said that, I dunno, I'm just asking questions here.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

Hillary is going to be in my town, Garner, tomorrow! I really can't go because I can't lose 5 hours out of the middle of my day but I'm amazed that she will be here.

A Full List of Donald Trump's Rapidly Changing Policy Positions

Donald Trump changes his mind so frequently and so dramatically that a compilation of his current policies would not tell the whole story, nor would it be up to date for very long — he once offered up three different views on abortion in eight hours. By mixing facts with exaggerations and outright falsehoods in hundreds of interviews while simultaneously refusing to offer specifics — insisting that unpredictability is an advantage he'll use to cut better deals — Trump and the Republican Party that's nominated him are putting forward the most elusive presidential platform in modern history.

To wit: This list features 117 distinct policy shifts on 20 major issues, tracking only his reversals since he announced his candidacy on June 16, 2015.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

I Think Nate Silver is Broken Maybe - Here’s my theory: I think Nate Silver is broken. I think the primaries, in which he took Ls just about hourly on his (reasonable and justified!) certainty that Trump was about to flame out, broke him; the lesson he took away from the beating seems to have been Nothing is knowable.
posted by DynamiteToast at 2:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

Of all the weird stuff that has happened in 2016, Deadspin being the place to go for political analysis is one of the more unexpected ones.
posted by zachlipton at 2:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

That's why I said "finagle": I'm thinking of the appearance, not the legality, and the capacity of the non-Fahrenthold media to cope with three different flavours of bullshit from the campaign.

But if Trump's passing on tix and hospitality from TrumpOrg to Ebers in exchange for a donation, it's a lot more obvious what's going on.
posted by holgate at 2:55 PM on September 26, 2016

We are past 4600 comments. Please for the love of my limited patience, could we get the new thread up?
posted by Sophie1 at 2:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

The request is to hold off on the new thread until shortly before the debate, for the love of all of our limited patiences.
posted by zachlipton at 2:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

I Think Nate Silver is Broken Maybe

Oracles always go mad eventually. Too much ethylene gas takes its toll sooner or later. Sad!
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

Yeah, if what folks need is to take a couple hours off from this creakin' tower of comments before the debate thread kicks off, that's probably not the worst thing that could happen to any us. Says the guy about to clock out.
posted by cortex at 2:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

Here’s my theory: I think Nate Silver is broken. I think the primaries, in which he took Ls just about hourly on his (reasonable and justified!) certainty that Trump was about to flame out, broke him; the lesson he took away from the beating seems to have been Nothing is knowable. I think he is Nate Bronze now.

Nate Bronze. Huehuehue.
posted by Justinian at 2:58 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

guess what? the creakin' tower of comments just got 100 inane remarks higher
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [21 favorites]

Y'all that mushroom bourguignon ain't playin' around. So good.
posted by goHermGO at 2:59 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Re: MSNBC's list of the participants' tasks tonight, from DailyKos:

Clinton's tasks tonight:

1. Unify Quantum Mechanics & Relativity.
2. All answers in Shakespeare quotes.
3. Smile constantly but look real.

Trump's tasks tonight:

1. Show up.
2. Don't projectile vomit.
3. Breathe.
posted by zakur at 3:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [23 favorites]

@LawrenceKS_PD

Additionally, drinking games where you drink every time someone says "yuge" leads to binge drinking, and we discourage that strongly


Be safe, dear friends!
posted by stolyarova at 3:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

We are past 4600 comments. Please for the love of my limited patience, could we get the new thread up?

New thread will go up approx 2 hrs from now, as discussed in the MetaTalk post.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:05 PM on September 26, 2016

Yeah, if what folks need is to take a couple hours off from this creakin' tower of comments before the debate thread kicks off, that's probably not the worst thing that could happen to any us.

I'm not leaving until I see these threads in my sleep.
posted by Justinian at 3:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

As I mentioned upthread, it seems mighty peculiar that Ebers donated exactly $477,400 to Trump's foundation in 2014. As I said there, this sounds suspiciously more like a business transaction, a bill due, than a donation. Seems that Farenthold has come to the same conclusion.
posted by JackFlash at 3:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

Is this the part where America collectively goes on an epic bender and wakes up in a grimy alley on November 9th with the world's worst hangover?
posted by indubitable at 3:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm not leaving until I see these threads in my sleep.

You don't yet?!
posted by infinitywaltz at 3:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

I talked to the president of Mexico about this thread and he totally told me Mexico would pay for it.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Of all the weird stuff that has happened in 2016, Deadspin being the place to go for political analysis is one of the more unexpected ones.

Deadspin picked up all of Gawker's male political writers (the female ones mostly went to Jezebel) just before Gawker sold its subsidiary properties to Univision, and there is no way they didn't plan that.
posted by mightygodking at 3:13 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

Spotted somebody at the grocery today wearing his Bill Clinton Chuy's Restaurant T-shirt. Wasn't sure if he already had it or bought it online for the occasion.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:14 PM on September 26, 2016

Keep commenting. We have two hours to make it to number four.
posted by vverse23 at 3:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

One practical thing I've noticed: reposting stuff will kill my browser. Obviously, I don't click on re-posts if I know I have seen them already, so the advice (actually plea) is: if you repost something, and there can be excellent reasons for doing so, please cite the former post or in some other way mention this was already posted.
Thank you.

Also, now I will sleep here in Scandinavia. I will most certainly wake up from a nightmare in time for the late-night rehashing of the debate, but I will try to refrain from watching and take a shot of brandy so I can sleep two more hours. You guys are my hope for sanity. I'll wake up when you go to sleep and I'm hoping you will restore sanity. (Election coverage here is if possible even more sensationalist than in the US, for different unpalatable reasons).
posted by mumimor at 3:20 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Additionally, drinking games where you drink every time someone says "yuge" leads to binge drinking, and we discourage that strongly

Be safe, dear friends!

I thought the election drinking game rules were

1. drink

posted by farlukar at 3:23 PM on September 26, 2016 [14 favorites]

(Election coverage here is if possible even more sensationalist than in the US, for different unpalatable reasons).
This is probably not the time for this, but would love to understand more about why that is at some point.
posted by peacheater at 3:26 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

This is probably not the time for this, but would love to understand more about why that is at some point.
If I ever get some sleep, I'll make a post about the normalization of racism in Northern Europe, when all this is over.
posted by mumimor at 3:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

I would like to ammend my debate fantasy of a loud horn when Trump lies with the swift arrival of the IRS 5 minutes before the debate ends and they arrest Trump for tax evasion and in the struggle his toupee falls off.
posted by Tarumba at 3:39 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

John Dingell: Donald Trump couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel. Looking forward to this debate.
posted by Sophie1 at 3:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

I believe Trump could be arrested for tax evasion before the election and he'd still get 42% of the vote.
posted by Justinian at 3:42 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

The Fahrenthold story would be a good opportunity for Hillary to play to the populist crowd tonight. She could point out that if you or I stole even a fraction of that kind of money on our taxes we'd be looking at jail time, but Trump is rich enough that the worst he'll have to face is a no contest plea and a fine. Segue from there to Wells Fargo.
posted by EarBucket at 3:43 PM on September 26, 2016

Is this the part where America collectively goes on an epic bender and wakes up in a grimy alley on November 9th with the world's worst hangover?

At this point, I think America is down to hoping to wake up in a tub of ice with our kidneys missing. Because at least then we'll have ice.
posted by happyroach at 3:45 PM on September 26, 2016 [17 favorites]

Keepin' It 1600 will be live tonight on Facebook. Debate preview at 8:30pm, and then immediately following the debate.
posted by zakur at 3:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

What the what? Donald Trump keeps asking foreign leaders for money. The latest: Vicente Fox.
posted by zachlipton at 3:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

As it turns out, I can't actually drink tonight. I accidentally scheduled my monthly 4-hour IV home infusion for this evening; it will end about halfway through the debate.

Every half hour during the infusion, the nurse stops to take my blood pressure. I've warned her to ignore any reading taken after I turn the TV on, just so she doesn't freak out and call a whaaaaaaambulance....
posted by invincible summer at 3:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

YOU GUYS

I landed a contract job today!

This is both good (for obvious reasons) and...bad? because I won't be able to watch as much of the debate. I feel like it's my civic duty, and besides, I want to watch Hillary slay Cheeto.
posted by pxe2000 at 3:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]

For your debate drinking (etc) game needs:
5 Woman-Owned Liquor Brands
6 Female-Owned Breweries
California Wineries Owned by Women
20 Black-Owned Wine and Spirit Brands
Minority Cannabis Business Association [Simply Pure in CO is owned by a black woman]
posted by melissasaurus at 3:57 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

It appears that (ahem) "MeFi's own" Scott Adams is either trolling his readers in a grand manner, or has come up with the oddest set of reasons a "certified genius" would support Donald Trump that I've seen.

1. "I don't know enough to make a decision" (So the default is Trump?)
2. Hilary will take my money after I'm dead (The "my" is kind of irrelevant here, I think.
3. Trump victory party (Does he imagine he'll be invited?)
4. Clinton doesn't "look healthy enough" (Apparently he plays a doctor on the Internet.)
5. "Trained persuaders" like him see Trump as a leader. (He doesn't seem to be interested in where things lead.)
6. Trump is the best persuader ever. (Even though he may be a "con man, a snake oil salesman, a carnival barker, or full of shit.")

If anyone can find actual logic in these statements, feel free to inform the populace.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:01 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's the first episode of Hillary, the Cheeto Slayer.
posted by SillyShepherd at 4:02 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

As a political analyst, Scott Adams is a pretty shitty cartoonist.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

He's a troll. How do I know he's a troll? Because he once showed up here to call himself a genius under a fake name. There is no reason to search for deeper meaning in his pronouncements, because he is a troll. Who is trolling.
posted by zachlipton at 4:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [24 favorites]

"Trained persuaders" like him see Trump as a leader.

If there was ever a blinking red sign screaming RUN, it's defining oneself as a 'persuader.'
posted by Existential Dread at 4:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

It's the first episode of Hillary, the Cheetoh Slayer.

I now demand Buffy-style opening credits.
posted by ultranos at 4:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

If anyone can find actual logic in these statements, feel free to inform the populace.

Scott Adams is a troll, and he has real problems with women, so combine the two and why anybody would expect him to be anything except a pure Trumpkin is beyond me.
posted by mightygodking at 4:04 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

Breaking: The Clinton campaign has invited Trump's brother Vincenzo Trumpangeli from Sicily to invoke the code of omertà.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:05 PM on September 26, 2016

Scott Adams left off the most important item on the list:
He is a wealthy straight white male whose life of comfort will not be significantly affected by a Trumpean reign of terror.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:07 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

If there was ever a blinking red sign screaming RUN, it's defining oneself as a 'persuader.'

What if you're a strong persuader?
posted by kirkaracha at 4:07 PM on September 26, 2016

From the Scott Adams link:

As most of you know, I had been endorsing Hillary Clinton for president, for my personal safety, because I live in California. It isn’t safe to be a Trump supporter where I live.

HAHA OMG HAHAHAHAHA YOU POOR PERSECUTED WHITE MAN. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Others have already beaten me to the fact that those 6 statements can be summed up as "I have serious problems with women," but AHAHAHAHAAHAHA
posted by sunset in snow country at 4:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

As a political analyst, Scott Adams is a pretty shitty cartoonist.

At least he gave the world Dogbert as a shorthand for pretty shitty people with delusions of power and grandeur like himself and Trump.

And MRA Dilbert is still being updated.
posted by holgate at 4:11 PM on September 26, 2016

@HillaryClinton
“You didn’t blame Little John or Meat Loaf. You fired Gary Busey.

These are the kinds of decisions that would keep me up at night."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [18 favorites]

Has anyone mentioned that the illustrious Steve King of Iowa seems to have gone full Nazi? He also tweeted a quote from far-right Hungarian politician Viktor Orbán saying that Hillary Clinton was a mouthpiece for George Soros, but I actually think there's a real chance that he's too much of a dingbat to even realize that's an anti-semitic dogwhistle.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's not too late to place a small wager to make things a little more interesting. I have ten shares riding on Trump uttering the phrase "Crooked Hillary" during the debate.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:22 PM on September 26, 2016

I'm going to Toledo tomorrow to see Mr. Future First Gentleman Himself speak. I will be interested in his hot debate takes.
posted by palindromic at 4:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Scott Adams jumps from "I don't know enough to make a decision" to "I know a lot about this one issue, so now I can make a decision on the whole election." Either he doesn't understand uncertainty or, in his eyes, this one proposed change to the estate tax trumps every other issue in the election.

To expand on "doesn't understand uncertainty": imagine that you're describing political positions on a 2D number line and have determined that Candidate A's stance on one issue is 23.75. You're not at all sure about her stances on dozens of other issues, so they could be anywhere between -100 and 100. You don't get to say "I'm voting for Candidate B because Candidate A's positions are > 0 on average." (And yes, we know Candidate A's positions on all of those issues to three decimal places because she put detailed plans on her website. But Scott's ignoring that, so for purposes of this ersatz hypothetical, I'm ignoring that. Hillary's policy shop doesn't get nearly enough love.)

On preview: yeah, trolling.
posted by Leslie Knope at 4:27 PM on September 26, 2016

@HillaryClinton
“You didn’t blame Little John or Meat Loaf. You fired Gary Busey.

These are the kinds of decisions that would keep me up at night."

And let the goading begin.
posted by chris24 at 4:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump Fans Are Mocking Hofstra Students For This “Trigger Warning” But It’s Not For The Debate

People on Twitter are going completely nuts bashing Hofstra students on Twitter over a sign that was reported to be a “trigger warning” about the debate. The only problem is the sign is actually outside a different event.

The trigger warning is actually for a virtual reality event that "hopes to inspire students to speak out about issues that matter to them" and the exhibits include gun violence, sexual harassment, and racial injustice.

Drudge Report got ahold of the wrong end of the stick and thought the trigger warning was for the debate and wrote an entire post about it with predictable comments from their deplorable readers which...nuff said.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:32 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

HRC bringing the A+ trolling game. Trump's attempts w/ the Flowers thing reminds me of the scene in Arrested Development when Buster (as a child) gets mad at the housekeeper and throws a dustbuster (her favorite toy!) at a city bus (her car!) to get back at her.
posted by melissasaurus at 4:33 PM on September 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

They just posted a debate preview episode of the FiveThirtyEight Elections podcast, if you're looking for something to wet your whistle.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:35 PM on September 26, 2016

I forgot how truly brutal that Obama roast of Trump was. Nuked him from orbit. Whoever plays that role in the eventual movie is going to be up for an Oscar if they nail those reactions.
posted by feloniousmonk at 4:35 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

New rule: companies that try to play both sides of this election don’t get my business.

Stop trying to make money off this nightmare.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:38 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

“You didn’t blame Little John or Meat Loaf. You fired Gary Busey.

These are the kinds of decisions that would keep me up at night.

There's an important subtext to this line, almost certainly not even intended by the speechwriter who wrote it. It was delivered, by President Obama, shortly after he ordered troops into Pakistan in pursuit of bin Laden. Like the operation was literally happening as he spoke. The President had, in fact, just made an extremely important decision, ordering troops into a nuclear-armed country we were never at war with, and was mocking Trump for the relative importance of their jobs.
posted by zachlipton at 4:41 PM on September 26, 2016 [22 favorites]

OK I've walked the dog, I've bought the popcorn, I've made the ice tea, and I've checked the level on the bourbon to make sure there is enough. I'm caught up on my twitter feed, I've read all the articles that caught my eye, I've listened to all my podcasts, and I'm at the end of the thread. Only....1 hour and 15 minutes to kill.

I can't even put myself into Hillary's shoes at this moment. I trust and believe she is fired-up and ready to go. Is it too much to ask that she has a little bit of fun tonight?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:44 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

My phone is charged, the cat is fed and petted and I have guacamole!

Oh, and a big ass bottle of Kraken.
posted by bird internet at 4:47 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

The final pre-debate JCPL is HIGH. Not quite redlining but some of my panic receptors have come back online after a week or two of calm. Please destroy this orange cheeto, Secretary Clinton.
posted by Justinian at 4:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

I'm physically nauseous. Ithink i might rely on you people this time.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

I just got my designer collection of Hillary buttons!!! They were ordered on July 30 for my mother's birthday on August 29, but better late than never!
posted by maggiemaggie at 4:50 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

CSPAN is doing a good job at remaining sane in their coverage so far (very early, I know). They also mentioned that they'll be including audience instructions, which won't likely be present in the network feeds who are going to be delivering hot takes until the last possible second.
posted by feloniousmonk at 4:51 PM on September 26, 2016

I hope Lester Holt embeds fact checking in the questions, e.g., "Mr. Trump, on $Issue you said $Something on $Date1 and then $Opposite on $Date2. Which is it, for what reason and why are you flipflopping?"
posted by carmicha at 4:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Atlantic: Donald Trump's Cruel Streak

Donald J. Trump has a cruel streak. He willfully causes pain and distress to others. And he repeats this public behavior so frequently that it’s fair to call it a character trait. Any single example would be off-putting but forgivable. Being shown many examples across many years should make any decent person recoil in disgust.

Judge for yourself if these examples qualify.[...]

And this penchant for purposeless cruelty goes beyond the political realm. "Heidi Klum. Sadly, she's no longer a 10," Trump said once for no apparent reason, baffling the model. “I've known Donald for many, many years. Personally I don't know why he did it," Klum said. "I don't know what I have to do with a presidential campaign." Imagine knowing someone for years, then having them attack your appearance for no reason on national TV. You’d think they were a sociopath.

There are a few things that I had not read about already. He really is a piece of shit.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [28 favorites]

My [raised-Democrat-by-union-workers-but-super-conservative-anyway-somehow] mom texts me: "Presidential debate tonight. Your [conservative Republican] Dad says 'this year's race is between someone who I absolutely do not want to vote for and someone I absolutely can not vote for.' I agree but I think he and I have the two individuals switched. LOL

And like, I don't even know how to reply to that? I can barely parse it

"I have them switched" what does that MEAN
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 4:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

It was delivered, by President Obama, shortly after he ordered troops into Pakistan in pursuit of bin Laden. Like the operation was literally happening as he spoke.

How would it look, they asked, if the president was at a black-tie dinner joking around with a bunch of reporters in the beautiful Hilton Hotel ballroom in Washington, D.C., while a group of Americans were dying on a failed mission in Pakistan? Secretary of State Hillary Clinton shot down that concern with a well-placed response. "Fuck the White House Correspondents' dinner," she said. "Heaven help us if we ever make an important operational decision like this based on some political event."

posted by kirkaracha at 4:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

The Uni apparently misspelled Clinton's name on the debate tickets.

There are no words.

I hope this was a troll and not something that actually happened.
posted by Yowser at 4:53 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Or "Mr. Trump, you said $Something but $Evidence demonstrates that is untrue. Now that you know that, how are you revising your position and what should the American people believe?"
posted by carmicha at 4:54 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

The very best thing about that Correspondents dinner the Gary Busey quote is from: is that's the one that happened during the operation that resulted in killing Osama bin Laden. Actual decisions that keep a leader up a night.
posted by lovecrafty at 4:54 PM on September 26, 2016

'Souvenir Tickets' to 1st Presidential Debate Misspell Candidate's Name as Hilary
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:55 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

J. Elvis Weinstein: Hillary should act like Trump tried to crush her hand during the opening handshake.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

I will probably not be watching C-SPAN, so if someone can distill the audience instructions down and post them in the thread at the appropriate time, I would appreciate that.
posted by zachlipton at 4:56 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

My [raised-Democrat-by-union-workers-but-super-conservative-anyway-somehow] mom texts me: "Presidential debate tonight. Your [conservative Republican] Dad says 'this year's race is between someone who I absolutely do not want to vote for and someone I absolutely can not vote for.' I agree but I think he and I have the two individuals switched. LOL

And like, I don't even know how to reply to that? I can barely parse it

"I have them switched" what does that MEAN
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 4:53 PM on September 26 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]

I think in means that they're cancelling each other out. Disaster averted.

I wish I could say the same..my good chrustian mother made hilarious aspersions in her last facebook post before I quit looking at facebood a month ago.
posted by bird internet at 5:01 PM on September 26, 2016

I just did a Ctrl F search on this thread for "hilary" which yielded 18 matches. D'oh!
posted by Atom Eyes at 5:01 PM on September 26, 2016

Trump debates Clinton, hilary ensues.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

Not sure which YouTube stream I should choose. CBS, Washington post or PBS or ?

Recommendations please? I would prefer not so much commentary, unless the commenter is hilarious or super on point
posted by Tarumba at 5:05 PM on September 26, 2016

Trump tweeted this two years ago today.

"I wonder if I run for PRESIDENT, will the haters and losers vote for me knowing that I will MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN? I say they will!"
posted by chris24 at 5:05 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

(and did anyone see the lady dancing on her seat?)
posted by Tarumba at 5:06 PM on September 26, 2016

I'm planning on watching the Bloomberg stream, via their channel on Youtube. They'll have live fact-checking. CSPAN would be the best if you want commentary-free viewing.
posted by honestcoyote at 5:06 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Not sure which YouTube stream I should choose. CBS, Washington post or PBS or ?

The Washington Post feed is talking-head free. So if you don't need to listen to the blather, go there.
posted by peeedro at 5:08 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm going to be listening to the Ringer's pre- and post-debate coverage, but I'd appreciate recs for the mid-debate stream to pick.
posted by you're a kitty! at 5:09 PM on September 26, 2016

Not sure which YouTube stream I should choose. CBS, Washington post or PBS or ?

PBS is going to have David Brooks, isn't it?

I guess you could just mute it.
posted by indubitable at 5:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

I saw on top of the front page "In a battle between a Bald Eagle and a chicken..." and thought the Debate Thread had been posted early...
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

The season 7 premier of Bob's Burgers is here, if anyone needs a post-debate palate cleanser.
posted by erisfree at 5:12 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

Me too!!
posted by Tarumba at 5:12 PM on September 26, 2016

Finally got my antidepressants. Now for them to kick in and this dizziness to pass. And thank you thread for reminding me I need to go make guacamole.
posted by threeturtles at 5:12 PM on September 26, 2016

> The Atlantic: Donald Trump's Cruel Streak

Link.
posted by homunculus at 5:12 PM on September 26, 2016

I'm going with the WaPo stream. It's up now showing people arriving. Just had two minutes of people swarming around Sheldon Adelson like petitioners at court.
posted by lovecrafty at 5:13 PM on September 26, 2016

I think I just saw a campaign ad for Richard Nixon.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'll be alternating between the CSPAN, WaPo and Bloomberg feeds.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:14 PM on September 26, 2016

New Jeep ad airing tonight -- looks like it's saying "both sides are the same," but it feels like it's pulling for Hillary?
posted by Mchelly at 5:15 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Debate FPP!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

godspeed gentlemen.
posted by Justinian at 5:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Does it count as a streak if it's most of your personality?
posted by Tarumba at 5:16 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Debate thread
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 5:16 PM on September 26, 2016

My contribution to the wishful thinking:

MODERATOR: [any question]
CLINTON: Mr. Trump, do you reject the endorsement of David Duke?
posted by prefpara at 5:17 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

so much for chilling on inane comments before it starts
posted by indubitable at 5:18 PM on September 26, 2016

It was delivered, by President Obama, shortly after he ordered troops into Pakistan in pursuit of bin Laden. Like the operation was literally happening as he spoke.

So Obama shows his certificate, roasts Trump, owns the next day's news cycle, then pre-empts the finale of the Celebrity Apprentice to announce he got bin Laden. It was a fantastic day, one I still remember because it was my most favourited comment for years.
posted by yellowbinder at 5:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Being for HRC saved me a few bucks tonite. Left my keys at work, no one else to let me in at home, had to call maintenance man. But after we discussed the debate he let me pay half what he was gonna charge for after hours fee. (Which had been a ripoff anyway.)

I'm in the Doing Something Else camp (shower, snack, movie or book to relax). MeFi and twitter can update me.

(And yes, NOW i post in a mega thread, when it's almost finito.
I'd had a bunch of intended comments I never posted, e.g. wondering how my righty female relatives, still extremely bitter about decades-old adultery by exes, would feel re the Flowers thing.)
posted by NorthernLite at 5:19 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

My fantasy line:
CLINTON: Does this mean I won't be invited to your next wedding, Donald?

(I believe this is the non-inane comments thread, indubitable.)

On preview of other thread: okay, you might have a point.
posted by uosuaq at 5:21 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

No, that's what I mean. That thread is already filled with "omg i'm making popcorn" etc.
posted by indubitable at 5:22 PM on September 26, 2016

Clinton's tasks tonight:

* Cast enemy skill "Big Guard" on entire party
* Maintain deep reserves of phoenix down, megalixir
* Unlock level 4 limit break "omnislash"
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

@RogerJStoneJr: WTF ? Trump Casino Hotel in Vegas is refusing to show the debates on any public tv in bars

Huh. Maybe they want people to gamble rather than watch 1.5 hours of TV.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:27 PM on September 26, 2016

New Jeep ad airing tonight -- looks like it's saying "both sides are the same," but it feels like it's pulling for Hillary?

If you're trying to reach Republican voters using a Cat Stevens song might not be the best choice.
posted by peeedro at 5:27 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

I just did a Ctrl F search on this thread for "hilary" which yielded 18 matches. D'oh!

Hey. Some of those are me.
posted by hilaryjade at 5:37 PM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

So there's FINALLY a new thread. Does this mean I can close this browser window now? The length of this FPP combined with a thoroughly botched upgrade to Sierra on my way-past-needing-to-be-upgraded MacBook Pro last week is flat-out MURDERING my computer. A couple of reboots a day, 4-5 complete FREEZES where I have to wait 4-7 minutes before the damn thing comes back to life, and just general slowness — all of which are aggravated by having this window open — is a recipe for utter misery. (You know, other than the very thought of the Porcine Cheeto himself.)

(please say I can close this window please)
posted by CommonSense at 5:52 PM on September 26, 2016

flat-out MURDERING my computer

I'm insanely curious about Metafilter's server load and if the behind-the-curtains people have had to do anything weird to support megathreads with really high user loads.

Pony request: Graphs please!
posted by porpoise at 6:08 PM on September 26, 2016

What's bad about being the world's piggy bank? Wouldn't that mean the US holds everyone's money?
posted by FJT at 6:11 PM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

A guy in Houston shot up a mall earlier today while wearing Nazi paraphernalia.

He was a white guy, so it wasn't a terrorist attack.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:22 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

So, I 'm feeling like she's president. Please tell me everyone else thinks so too.
posted by valkane at 7:49 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Reposting the link to the debate thread since it fell out of Recent Activity.
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:02 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

A guy in Houston shot up a mall earlier today while wearing Nazi paraphernalia.

He was a white guy, so it wasn't a terrorist attack.

He was South Asian.
posted by zutalors! at 5:37 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]