[Election 2016] If you stand for nothing, what’ll you fall for?
September 29, 2016 10:14 AM   Subscribe

In the wake of the first presidential debate Monday night, which was widely recognized as a Clinton win even by the Republicans, polls in swing states have begun to swing back toward Clinton and even Nate Silver is calming down a bit.

While Clinton was poised and prepared and increasingly delighted with the way the debate was shaping up, Trump's performance quickly devolved from calm and rehearsed to angry word salad, punctuated by sniffles which were heard round the world, and health concerns were raised again at a rally the next day.

But the big takeaway from debate night was a story about Trump's treatment of Miss Universe Alicia Machado which Clinton brought up near the end of the debate and the Clinton campaign quickly followed up with a well-executed video shortly afterward. The story quickly gained legs and Trump's treatment of women became a national topic of conversation.

Trump's troubles don't end there, however: while the New York Attorney Generals's investigation of the Trump Foundation appears to be widening, Newsweek has broken a story about Trump's violation of United States embargoes with Cuba, which could potentially have implications with Florida voters. And there are hints that Trump plans to use Bill Clinton's sex scandals against Hillary, which could go very badly for him, as the Clinton camp seems to be prepared for such an event.

Meanwhile, Gary Johnson had another Aleppo moment when he was unable to name a world leader -- ANY world leader.
posted by rabbitrabbit (3572 comments total) 148 users marked this as a favorite
 
Great job on your first FPP, rabbitrabbit.
posted by Gelatin at 10:19 AM on September 29, 2016 [157 favorites]


The ensuing narrative about the debate has done wonders for my mental health.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:19 AM on September 29, 2016 [39 favorites]


NYT: Split Over Donald Trump and Cut Off by Culture Wars, Evangelicals Despair
But three years ago, the Odgaards refused to rent the quaint site to two gay men for a wedding, saying it would violate their religious beliefs about marriage.
Let's read a little bit further...
Everyone they knew seemed to have a gay relative or friend. Mr. Odgaard’s daughter from his first marriage disavowed her father’s actions on Facebook, and his gay second cousin will not speak to him.
Don't give me bullshit and call it chocolate ice cream.
posted by Talez at 10:19 AM on September 29, 2016 [106 favorites]


Gary Johnson's candidacy has increasingly become a joke, and the only reason he's drawing support at all is as a protest candidate.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:20 AM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


I think the saddest thing for me personally is that my nieces are exposed to the nasty rhetoric of Trump by their good ole boy paternal granddad. I will be there right before the final sprint of the election and I hope I don't have to interact with him.

I suspect I will be doing the majority of deprogramming those girls once they get older.
posted by Kitteh at 10:20 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Meanwhile, Gary Johnson had another Aleppo moment when he was unable to name a world leader -- ANY world leader.

Oof. Leagues worse than Aleppo, vaguely in line with Sarah Palin not being able to name a newspaper or magazine she has read.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:20 AM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


Now that he's revealed his ignorance in even more spectacular fashion, can't we call an 'Aleppo moment' 'pulling a Johnson'?
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:20 AM on September 29, 2016 [46 favorites]


I'm still kind of stunned that nothing from HRC was picked out as a "Gore sigh" by the news commentariat.
posted by thelonius at 10:21 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]




Seriously, are we not doing phrasing anymore?
posted by tonycpsu at 10:22 AM on September 29, 2016 [33 favorites]




Now that he's revealed his ignorance in even more spectacular fashion, can't we call an 'Aleppo moment' 'pulling a Johnson'?

I refer to him as Gary "The Guy Who Doesn't Know Things" Johnson, in reference to this song.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:22 AM on September 29, 2016


Carrying over from the last thread:

If the Republicans collapse the Democrats can define themselves as the new center, and maybe we'll get a worthwhile party on the left sometime before I'm an old man in a retirement home (or, more likely, an old man in a tent under an overpass).

I'm betting on the opposite. I think the Libertarians may actually wind up as the most prominent new right party (after a few cycles of bitter struggle), and as a result the Dems will have to redefine themselves as more explicitly socialist.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:22 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


I posted this Fresh Air interview with WaPo investigative journalist David Fahrenthold in the other thread, but given that Trump's foundation skullduggery is part of the FPP, it may be worth another look.

Fahrenthold give an excellent rundown both on the nature of the scandal and his own technique in investigating it. And he makes clear, in a way that he wasn't in his published articles -- damning as they are -- that he believes Trump has committed multiple violations of the law.
posted by Gelatin at 10:23 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Top aide: Trump's Cuba dealings weren't 'treasonous'

"Don't ever say the crime your boss is being accused of, especially if it's something like treason" is, like, Campaign Management 101.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:24 AM on September 29, 2016 [74 favorites]


From the last thread:

Gelatin: It's like seeing someone who failed a test -- and make no mistake, these Republican complaints tacitly concede the fact that Trump lost -- complaining that the person who actually studied only passed because she must have cheated.

Coach McGuirk on Lying and Cheating:
Brendon: What if they figure out that you're a liar, you know?

McGuirk: What women?

Brendon: Sure.

McGuirk: Then who needs them? Lie to men. The other thing, Brendon, is that cheating is just another way of being prepared. Basically, memorizing something is cheating. You knew the answer before the test was given. And so by taking the test and saying you learned that stuff...

Brendon: It's cheating.

McGuirk: It's cheating! You're already cheating!

Brendon: Wow.

McGuirk: Yeah, I'm discovering all this too as I say it.

Is McGuirk what Trump would be without the small $14M loan from his father?
posted by palindromic at 10:24 AM on September 29, 2016 [58 favorites]


BREAKING NEWS: Mothra Twins choose Mothra Twins for running mate.
posted by y2karl at 10:25 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Speaking of Machado, I do want to emphasize that her words are, as someone noted, more damning in the actual Spanish.
posted by corb at 10:25 AM on September 29, 2016 [37 favorites]


Top aide: Trump's Cuba dealings weren't 'treasonous'

Good grief. This family really is Arrested Development.
posted by zachlipton at 10:26 AM on September 29, 2016 [47 favorites]


the Dems will have to redefine themselves as more explicitly socialist.

Oh no, not that! Please don't throw us into the socialist briar patch, Br'er Bear!

Is McGuirk what Trump would be without the small $14M loan from his father?

He wishes.
posted by emjaybee at 10:27 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


can't we call an 'Aleppo moment' 'pulling a Johnson'?

Do try to avoid doing this in public.
 
posted by Herodios at 10:28 AM on September 29, 2016 [38 favorites]


Meanwhile, Mitch McConnell has apparently turned into Bartleby the Scrivener.

Mitch McConnell appears to be having sympathy sniffles with sein Führer.
posted by Talez at 10:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Didn't see it in the debate thread, so apologies if posted already, but:

A special 2016 election reunion episode of Will & Grace.
posted by chris24 at 10:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


I'm still kind of stunned that nothing from HRC was picked out as a "Gore sigh" by the news commentariat.

That's probably because her most famous bit of body language, the shoulder shimmy, was so joyful, and at the point where it was so obvious she'd won (Trump has a better temperament? Puh-leeze!) that she actually let herself realize it.
posted by Gelatin at 10:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [82 favorites]


It's not like the death of a longstanding, incredibly accomplished, well-respected world leader was front page news on every single news source on that same day.
posted by miyabo at 10:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


(future thread titlers: "talk less! smile more!" remains unused)
posted by mwhybark at 10:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


McGuirk, for all his faults, is at least in possession of a small kernel of humanity. Can you imagine Trump brought to tears by bagpipes, or ever Scottish Highland Dancing?
posted by Existential Dread at 10:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Good grief. This family really is Arrested Development.

Light treason? He'll fit right in with the Republican party.
posted by Talez at 10:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ok, so I finally watched the debate, and read some reactions, and am making my way through the thread, so forgive me if this is a little late to the party, but, well:

Trump's performance at the debate reminded me of nothing so much as my old roommate giving ten explanations in one minute for why he doesn't have his share of the rent, complete with weird shifts in facial expression, wild tangents, dry mouth and constant sniffling.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:31 AM on September 29, 2016 [73 favorites]


"Don't ever say the crime your boss is being accused of, especially if it's something like treason" is, like, Campaign Management 101.

"Ah, it's too hot today."
posted by Iridic at 10:32 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm betting on the opposite. I think the Libertarians may actually wind up as the most prominent new right party (after a few cycles of bitter struggle), and as a result the Dems will have to redefine themselves as more explicitly socialist.

a girl can dream
posted by burgerrr at 10:32 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Zapp Brannigan voice actor (Billy West) reading Trump quotes

I'm going to see a live version of this tonight at the Hollywood Improv!
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


Congratulations on your first FPP, rabbitrabbit! Well done!

Also, thanks for adding [Election 2016] to the headline. A nice touch.
posted by zarq at 10:35 AM on September 29, 2016 [31 favorites]


> (future thread titlers: "talk less! smile more!" remains unused)
posted by mwhybark at 10:30 AM on September 29 [1 favorite +] [!]


I mean it's a very memorable line, but for obvious reasons it might not really be the message that we want to take out of Hamilton.

I still think "oh my god, tear this dude apart" would be great for a debate thread, even if Mulligan's wording is a bit over-the-top.

and Trump Refuted would make a good title for the post-election celebration thread...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:38 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


Congress did pass a continuing resolution, however, only through December 9th, setting up the next budget/shutdown fight for right in the middle of the lame duck session.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:42 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump's performance at the debate reminded me of nothing so much as my old roommate giving ten explanations in one minute for why he doesn't have his share of the rent, complete with weird shifts in facial expression, wild tangents, dry mouth and constant sniffling.

That means your roommate was smart!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:42 AM on September 29, 2016 [82 favorites]


That's probably because her most famous bit of body language, the shoulder shimmy, was so joyful, and at the point where it was so obvious she'd won (Trump has a better temperament? Puh-leeze!), she actually let herself realize it.

Breitbart (not linking to it) had an article claiming that the shimmy might have been a winner had she not done it for too long, i.e. she Hingle McCringleberried it.
posted by zakur at 10:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


A new thread?
I'll go warn my iPad.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


The level of self-unawareness on the part of their new Clinton Blowjob strategy is just incredible. Like they think it could actually work. To the point they're like, "I didn't want to have to do this but okay..." I mean the willful blindness is stunning. It's cult-member level.

I even had an argument (just for fun) with a Trump supporter yesterday about whether Trump had implied that he paid no taxes. "That's not what he said." I pulled up the transcript. It's right there. "That's not what he said. He will release his taxes when the audit is over, and it will show he's paid more than most people." Wow. What do you say to someone like that?
posted by fungible at 10:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [28 favorites]


What comes after double-down? Triple-down?

Chicago Tribune: Employees at Trump's California golf course say he wanted to fire women who weren't pretty enough

Newt Gingrich: "You're not supposed to gain 60 pounds' when you're Miss Universe"

Next up, Cuba...
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


What comes after double-down?

Regret.

Oh, sorry, that's what comes after a Double Down.
posted by Etrigan at 10:45 AM on September 29, 2016 [34 favorites]


Trump really Neil Breened it.
posted by Yowser at 10:45 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'd been basking in the afterglow of the debate for the past couple of days until I had some 'interesting' discussions in the faculty lounge. It's a wonder my eyes haven't rolled out of their sockets. Takes from Pakistani schoolteachers:

- Trump is a bald faced liar and that's better than being deceptive and conniving like Clinton, who is responsible for all the messes in the Middle East. As in, personally responsible. As in, she, behind the scenes, "started all the wars." "I'm not saying this ,this is the Americans themselves saying it ." (Thanks Republican spin machine. At least my colleagues appreciated my sharing of the 'sometimes there's only a smoke machine' quip.)

- Anyone who has been in public office for as long as Clinton would of course be well versed. Clinton's competence is no big deal, just a matter of her circumstances. (Why can't women *ever* be given credit for their accomplishments?)

- Clinton wasn't really anybody in her own right. She was catapulted into positions of influence because of her husband. (I took special pleasure in pointing out that she worked on the Watergate inquiry before she was married and she was valedictorian at Wellesley.)

- Trump is so obviously incompetent to be president that "the powers that be" must have simply put him up so that they can be assured of a Clinton victory.

But I just have to think about the last ten minutes of the debate to return to my happy state. She mopped the floor with him and it was extremely gratifying.
posted by bardophile at 10:46 AM on September 29, 2016 [55 favorites]


Great job on your first FPP, rabbitrabbit.

Can something be anti-eponysterical? Because to have rabbitrabbit make a first post now rather than Saturday morning seems to quality.
posted by phearlez at 10:46 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


Oh, sorry, that's what comes after a Double Down.

I thought that was diarrhea. Which is accurate in both contexts.
posted by Talez at 10:47 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I, for some reason, was watching the first town-hall debate — the one in 1992 with Bush, Clinton, and Perot. The whole thing is up on YouTube. I was struck by a few things:
  • The questions are quite good and the answers were excellent. The candidates were cordial toward one another and all of them came off as smart people. Clinton, in particular, said afterwards that his goal was to give people policy specifics, and to a person in 2016 it's astonishing how much detail he goes into on stage, throwing out numbers with ease and explaining complex things in accurate ways.
  • All the candidates went into great detail on the economy, which dominated questioning to the near-exclusion of social issues. (This, of course, may have been the influence of Perot, who saw everything through an economic lens and was a more genuine “run a country like a business” candidate than Romney or Trump ever could dream of.)
  • There were no personal attacks, or if there were they were so brief that I missed them entirely.
Despite all this, the legacy of this debate is almost entirely about stagecraft — Bush looking at his watch, Clinton wading out into the audience to connect with individual voters. I like the idea of a debate where the candidates interact with an audience of undecided voters, but I wish we had a way of doing that that didn't turn candidates into soliloquizers on an imagined stage.

I don't really know what an undecided voter looks like in this election. But I fear that we're not going to get this sort of substance on October 9. Either the candidates have figured out how to take nuanced policy questions and pivot to the well-worn topics in their answers, or the questions themselves have gotten more conventional and horse-racey.

If Trump had had to hang with those three in 1992, the contrast would've been so goddamn obvious. He would've been caught out on the first question as not knowing what the hell he was talking about. I think he'll tank the next debate, but most likely it'll be because he interrupted a questioner or started arguing with someone or once again brought up Rosie O'Donnell for no fucking reason.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:49 AM on September 29, 2016 [49 favorites]


Wanted: Pro-Trump News Writer
DO NOT APPLY IF:
-You have trouble using Microsoft Suite, Skype, or any other Basic Software
-You are a liberal
-You don't LOVE Trump
-You plan on just "getting by"
posted by octobersurprise at 10:49 AM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


From the article on Gingrich's comment I found this even more interesting bit from Trump down at the bottom:

"I had nothing to do with this person, but they wanted to fire her. I saved her job. ... You know what happened, look what I get out of it. I get nothing," Trump said during an interview Tuesday on Fox News.

"And it is a beauty contest," Trump later added. "Say what you want, but, I mean, they know what they're getting into. It's a beauty contest. And I said don't do that. Let her try and lose the weight. Can you imagine I end up in a position like this."


Even after everything we've been through together in these election threads it's still incredible to me that in the span of two statements he tries to make himself the victim - twice.
posted by komara at 10:49 AM on September 29, 2016 [28 favorites]


I already got to correspondence vote overseas! Quickest ballot fillout ever, got it last evening and mailed it this morning (though I did send my ballots within 48 hours for Obama both times). Also the first time ever that I've put a clear X over a presidential ticket. I'm sure you can guess which one. I REALLY did not want there to be ANY mistake about for whom I was voting. Perfectly-filled-in oval for the ticket I want, BIG HONKING X over the racist sexist scam artist and his VP pick. (Over their names. Not their oval.)

Clinton went and freaking made me cry again, it's just incredible watching a woman I look up to do her thing, experience the same shit I and other women have, and hold her own with such poise, intelligence, and humor.
posted by fraula at 10:49 AM on September 29, 2016 [27 favorites]


What comes after double-down? Triple-down?

More types of downs!

We got Bill, we got Cuba and 'no he didn't do Treason' still waiting on his direct response and a couple of possibilities that looked like he floated yesterday, with the potential big one being whether non-Christians should be kicked out of his rally (it was a joke! har har). He was testing that line.
posted by Jalliah at 10:50 AM on September 29, 2016


Gary Johnson is coming to Phoenix on Saturday for a rally.

The husband of a friend is the state chair of the Arizona Libertarian Party and had absolutely no idea this rally was happening until yesterday (and only then because friends were emailing him, not because of any official communication). None of my other Libertarian friends (used to be one - before I grew up) even knew this was happening.

But this is the year we are supposed to start taking Libertarians seriously...
posted by Lapin at 10:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [32 favorites]


I didn't watch the debate -- my job had me in a vehicle driving 400 miles, so I listened to it on NPR.

I have to say, after about 30 minutes, I started to wonder if Trump had done a giant rail of coke before going on, because his sniffing was SO FUCKING INTENSE over the radio.

If you haven't seen Samantha Bee analyze the debate yet, then you should watch it. Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4
posted by hippybear at 10:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [70 favorites]


The level of self-unawareness on the part of their new Clinton Blowjob strategy is just incredible. Like they think it could actually work. To the point they're like, "I didn't want to have to do this but okay..."

Do the Trump campaign people not think that Clinton's team hasn't already prepared for this? I'd put down money right this second that Clinton has at least one of Trump's mistresses ready to come out against him in a post-second debate commercial. They can't possibly think bringing up infidelities would be a winner, could they?

Oh yeah... Trump's Razor.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 10:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [19 favorites]


Gary Johnson's candidacy has increasingly become a joke, and the only reason he's drawing support at all is as a protest candidate.
The thing I find really frustrating about Johnson is that, unlike most Libertarians, he actually does have designs on maintaining certain military conflicts, particularly in the Middle East. So he wants to cut the military in half in terms of budget and personnel, but still expects our guys and gals to fight their hearts out against ISIS and other terroristic enemies while continuing to defend Israel and intervening in places like Somalia and Uganda. And despite this, he didn't know what Aleppo was and can't name foreign leaders. Looking constantly inward does nothing for the country and it certainly did nothing for New Mexico under his term as governor, which dropped down several rungs on the ladder educationally, economically, and socially during his tenure. (See: supporting private prisons, being "tough on crime" by never pardoning a single non-violent drug offender, the stupid filmmaker tax credit, getting cited by Human Rights Watch, etc. etc.) Screw Johnson. He's a hack who says one thing and does another and is perfectly content to watch this country go up in flames while acting as a spoiler vote.
posted by xyzzy at 10:52 AM on September 29, 2016 [53 favorites]


Breitbart (not linking to it) had an article claiming that the shimmy might have been a winner had she not done it for too long

That's hilarious. Even her own worst enemies have to concede that it was a winning moment. Not sure how something that was no longer than 2 seconds counts as "too long," though.
posted by explosion at 10:53 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


The level of self-unawareness on the part of their new Clinton Blowjob strategy is just incredible. Like they think it could actually work. To the point they're like, "I didn't want to have to do this but okay..." I mean the willful blindness is stunning. It's cult-member level.

"Sorry, Donald, that was a while ago. Remind me, which marriage were you on when it happened?" [/fake]
posted by Gelatin at 10:54 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


Also the first time ever that I've put a clear X over a presidential ticket. I'm sure you can guess which one. I REALLY did not want there to be ANY mistake about for whom I was voting. Perfectly-filled-in oval for the ticket I want, BIG HONKING X over the racist sexist scam artist and his VP pick. (Over their names. Not their oval.)

Uh... does this not invalidate the ballot?
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:55 AM on September 29, 2016 [59 favorites]


So in the land of Fox news (for those who can't bear to give them page views): their website has been running a constant stream of character assassination stories about Alicia Machado, as headlines. I can't help but think this is a mistake: they are in no way attacking the truth of her story because that of course would contradict Trump himself, who has doubled down several times, insisting he was justified in the way he treated her. So all they are doing is making sure the story stays in the news. Perhaps pointing out character flaws will allow a certain mindset to, in turn, justify their vote for Trump: "He was mean to this woman, but she is not virtuous." However there must be some voters out there who realize that no one deserves that kind of treatment.
posted by TreeRooster at 10:55 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


komara: "Even after everything we've been through together in these election threads it's still incredible to me that in the span of two sentences he tries to make himself the victim - twice."

I wonder to what extent the Clinton campaign intentionally meant this as catnip. The story doesn't reflect well on him even if he doesn't take the bait, but I wonder if it was their hope all along that he'd keep batting it around for the next few news cycles. Either way, I hope they've got a new thing to spring on him for the next debate.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:56 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wanted: Pro-Trump News Writer

"You will be paid for each and every quality article that you help create."
posted by AndrewInDC at 10:57 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


I can imagine what was going on inside of Weld's and Gary Johnson's heads.

Q: Name a world leader. Any world leader.

Weld: [Oh! Oh! Me, Mr. Kotter. Me, Mr. Kotter. Ooh! Ooh!]

Johnson: [Damn. Who was in charge of the Island of Misfit Toys?]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:57 AM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


Gary Johnson is coming to Phoenix on Saturday for a rally.

The husband of a friend is the state chair of the Arizona Libertarian Party and had absolutely no idea this rally was happening until yesterday


That seems pretty on-point for Libertarians, though. Don't need no top-down hierarchy telling me where to be and when to be there. I'll go where I want, when I want, and if Gary Johnson happens to be there, well, cool.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:59 AM on September 29, 2016 [49 favorites]


Wanted: Pro-Trump News Writer

"You will be paid for each and every quality article that you help create."


"But if you don't do 'quality work' you will only be paid 40 cents on the dollar of the negotiated contract."
posted by hippybear at 10:59 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Wanted: Pro-Trump News Writer

Reminds me of a recent Scientology recruitment ad for a writer who would work for Freedom magazine, their major in-house publication. Semi-relevant quote:

We have a religious aspect to what we do, and a definite point of view. You adjust to us, not the other way around.

Interesting how modern conservatives and repressive cults have very similar language.
posted by honestcoyote at 10:59 AM on September 29, 2016 [22 favorites]


I already got to correspondence vote overseas! Quickest ballot fillout ever, got it last evening and mailed it this morning (though I did send my ballots within 48 hours for Obama both times). Also the first time ever that I've put a clear X over a presidential ticket. I'm sure you can guess which one. I REALLY did not want there to be ANY mistake about for whom I was voting. Perfectly-filled-in oval for the ticket I want, BIG HONKING X over the racist sexist scam artist and his VP pick. (Over their names. Not their oval.)

You invalidated your ballot. You didn't vote for anyone.
posted by hleehowon at 11:00 AM on September 29, 2016 [18 favorites]


Wanted Pro Trump Writer
If you are a highly-driven individual with a solid competency for writing...

posted by bardophile at 11:00 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Also: have we ever had a candidate whose skin was so easy to get under? How many stories have we heard about how he can't stand the implication that he's not as rich as he claims to be?

He's like the first mini-boss in a Zelda game — half a dozen giant weak spots, all of which glow bright neon. Clinton just has to memorize the routine, bide her time, and strike when he turns his back. A true boss would change up his movement pattern halfway through, but Trump's programming makes that impossible.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:00 AM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


> Zapp Brannigan voice actor (Billy West) reading Trump quotes

Methinks Stimpy voice actor (Billy West) reading Trump quotes would be more appropriate.
“Build the wall... duuuh, OK Ren”
posted by farlukar at 11:00 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


You invalidated your ballot.

The counters probably don't scan the entire ballot and reject it if there are extraneous marks.
posted by Etrigan at 11:01 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Uh... does this not invalidate the ballot?

Depends on how they count the votes. If it's by scanning the card, probably not - they only care about marks inside the circles. Content outside the voting dots won't even be noticed.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:02 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Breitbart (not linking to it) had an article claiming that the shimmy might have been a winner had she not done it for too long

Someone should tell the people at Breitbart that animated GIFs are an endless loop.

I wonder to what extent the Clinton campaign intentionally meant this as catnip. The story doesn't reflect well on him even if he doesn't take the bait, but I wonder if it was their hope all along that he'd keep batting it around for the next few news cycles. Either way, I hope they've got a new thing to spring on him for the next debate.

No doubt about it. She waited for the end of the debate to spring it on him -- and he was completely befuddled; he had no idea of what she was talking about at first -- and the campaign had a lengthy video all ready to go.

Team Clinton seems to have been working like the obituary desk at a major news outlet, assembling tons of clips, ready to be deployed at the appropriate time.
posted by Gelatin at 11:02 AM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]



Uh... does this not invalidate the ballot?


Nah. The optical readers will never see it. It could possibly be challenged in a Florida style recount, but that won't happen.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:02 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Also: have we ever had a candidate whose skin was so easy to get under?

Nixon was pretty famous for it, but he was also smart enough not to show it quite so much.

(now I'm envisioning Nixon in the Twitter era and the number of aides who would die trying to get his phone away from him)
posted by Etrigan at 11:03 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


I don't think a ballot has to be pristine for it to be counted, so long as there were no stray marks inside the fill-in ovals.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:03 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I hope SNL revives Celebrity Jeapordy with a 3rd Party Candidate Edition with Stein, Johnson and Connery or at least does Black Jeapordy with Donald/Hillary.
posted by humanfont at 11:03 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


savetheclocktower: I, for some reason, was watching the first town-hall debate — the one in 1992 with Bush, Clinton, and Perot.

Thanks to a family friend who worked for the Clinton campaign, highschooler emelenjr watched the debate on a TV in the basement of the arena where it was held, sitting with Stephanopoulous, Carville and other Clinton team members. I shook the Big Dog's hand when he came down to greet his staff afterward, too. My friend who came with me that night now works for Longwood University and was personally involved in preparations for the upcoming VP debate there.

He has so far not done the honorable thing and hooked me up with tickets to the thing.
posted by emelenjr at 11:03 AM on September 29, 2016 [29 favorites]


From doing some quick googling, whether or not marking outside the bubble invalidates a ballot seems to depend on the jurisdiction you're voting in. But some places may also allow you to cancel a spoilt ballot and get a second one. fraula you should look into this!
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:04 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]






So, once upon a time I went out with a girl who went on to be Missouri's Libertarian gubernatorial candidate. She would have SO knocked this question out of the park then and she was a college freshman. That's what blows me away about Johnson. I tend to see Libertarians as political wonks with maybe a twinge of cognitive dissonance. Meanwhile, it's like Johnson gets all his news from guys at the water cooler telling him about what Trevor Noah said on Comedy Central last night.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:06 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


At this point I think half the benefit to the Clinton campaign of a Lewinsky/Flowers attack would be not the backlash itself but the impression that he played right into her hands again. Trump blundering into obvious traps is damaging in and of itself, even if the traps don't have too many teeth, which gives the campaign incentive to publicly state ahead of time how obvious their traps are.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:06 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump spokesperson Katrina Pierson insists only "online polls" are really accurate because the media's scientific polls are "skewed."

Because that mindset worked so well for the Republicans in 2012.
posted by Gelatin at 11:07 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump spokesperson Katrina Pierson insists only "online polls" are really accurate because the media's scientific polls are "skewed."

Science Reality has a well-known anti-Trump bias.
posted by zarq at 11:07 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


So having Mark Cuban at the debate was in reality razzing Trump about his Cuban connections.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:08 AM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


"You will be paid for each and every quality article that you help create."

Which looks to be about 20 bucks a piece. In Vegas. By a company called Gravitas Works which looks to be somewhere around here. I'm just imagining a bunch of super-methed-out dudes struggling to write pro-Trump copy so they can get their money and go get a couple of 40s and a pack of squares or something.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:08 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also: have we ever had a candidate whose skin was so easy to get under? How many stories have we heard about how he can't stand the implication that he's not as rich as he claims to be?

Ah, you missed John Silber running for governor of Massachusetts.

Of course, there's Le Page from Maine, and Christie, and ...
posted by Melismata at 11:08 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


She waited for the end of the debate to spring it on him --

She waited for the topic of "she doesn't have the look" to come up. If that had been mentioned in the first half-hour, she'd've brought it up then; it was a matter of (glorious) luck for her that it was near the end of the agenda.

If Holt hadn't brought up the topic, she would've had to find a way to bring up Trump's attitude toward women, but it would've seemed like she was forcing the topic.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:08 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


I don't really know what an undecided voter looks like in this election.

Good bet they're white, male, and straight.
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:09 AM on September 29, 2016 [29 favorites]


HRC: He's so broke, he can't even pay attention! [fake]
posted by palindromic at 11:09 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Gary Johnson's candidacy has increasingly become a joke, and the only reason he's drawing support at all is as a protest candidate.

Seriously, though I think Gary Johnson is actually just crazy. Watch (if you can) as this poor MSNBC reporter recoils in palpable fear that he is going to lean over and start licking her. Even in this election cycle I think this may be the oddest clip we're going to get. Warning: Seriously. His tongue. It's creepy.
posted by The Bellman at 11:10 AM on September 29, 2016 [35 favorites]


From the Chicago Tribune article:
Trump has previously defended himself by saying he has “great respect for women” and “will do far more for women” than Clinton. He has also said that “all are impressed with how nicely I have treated women.
BWAHAHAHAHA

he thinks that if he says something, it magically becomes true. he has great respect for women--nevermind his very public record of demeaning, harassing, and discriminating against them. never mind the rape. he will do more for women than clinton--nevermind that he has no explanation of how. everyone is impressed with how nicely he's treated women--nevermind that he's saying this in direct response to people who are not impressed.

it's HILARIOUS

but oh wait, it works...
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 11:10 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Donald Trump Is About to Go Nuclear on Hillary Clinton:
If Trump were to wage all-out war on the Clintons, he could rely on a veritable ocean of muck that the American right wing has accumulated over the years, including not just Benghazi or the email scandal, but accusations going back decades about Whitewater, the suicide of Vince Foster, and drug smuggling in Arkansas—not to mention the likeliest line of attack: Bill Clinton’s checkered sexual history.
Mmmm...reheated leftover nothingburgers.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:11 AM on September 29, 2016 [41 favorites]


If Holt hadn't brought up the topic, she would've had to find a way to bring up Trump's attitude toward women, but it would've seemed like she was forcing the topic.

I'm sure she had half a dozen other videos ready to go for other talking points which never came up.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:12 AM on September 29, 2016 [37 favorites]


At this point I think half the benefit to the Clinton campaign of a Lewinsky/Flowers attack would be not the backlash itself but the impression that he played right into her hands again.

Which is why I kinda want to see it happen. It'd be like Babe Ruth calling his shot.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:13 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


He's like the first mini-boss in a Zelda game — half a dozen giant weak spots, all of which glow bright neon.

Where as Clinton is the Bed of Chaos: you hit her obvious weak spots and nothing much happens, then you start looking around for somewhere else to attack and fall into a bottomless pit

I'm not sure what video game boss Gary Johnson is but I swear I can hear the Chocobo theme playing in my head every time I see him talk
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:13 AM on September 29, 2016 [41 favorites]


> ...my nieces are exposed to the nasty rhetoric of Trump

Here is the thing for me with someone like Trump getting so much airplay - it normalizes hate speech again.

Not to trivialize either smoking or hate speech, but the thing with his level of nasty public discourse is that we had it on the run, we really did, just like cigarette addiction.

We used to smoke in cars with our unrestrained two year olds bouncing around in the back. We used to smoke in airplanes, in hospitals, around people who were sick, everywhere - we smoked everywhere.

Then we started to understand all of the harm it caused. People tried to quit, society became less accepting.

Some people complained a lot about these changes - after all, they figured they were only hurting themselves.

The same has been happening with hate speech and nasty bigoted rhetoric - we stopped seeing it in public. Sure, some venomous creatures were muttering it in corners, but as it became less and less acceptable, we became less used to it, and noticed it more when it happened.

He has been undoing all that with his public displays of bigotry, of misogyny. It would be as if we all of sudden dropped all the smoking bans, and said, "hey, no we were wrong - this is okay - go ahead and blow smoke around the baby".
posted by hilaryjade at 11:13 AM on September 29, 2016 [112 favorites]


he has great respect for women--nevermind his very public record of demeaning, harassing, and discriminating against them.

Nevermind that he's on public record saying he doesn't respect women.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:13 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wanted: Pro-Trump News Writer

Current headlines on that site:
JUST BECAUSE TRUMP WON THE DEBATE DOESN’T MEAN HE WON (HOW STUPID DO THEY GET?)

BREAKING: MEXICAN CARTELS JUST CAUGHT WORKING WITH ISIS IN THE U.S.

INSIDER: Leaked Email Shows Obama’s Plan To Rig Election For Hillary

Hillary Just Promised To “Punish” All White Cops Once In Office

BREAKING: Hillary’s Campaign Now Backing Out Of The Debate

THE RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD JUST AGREED TO HELP TRUMP BUILD THE WALL
Quality stuff.
posted by zakur at 11:14 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


I don't really know what an undecided voter looks like in this election.

All the undecided voters I know are conservative Christian Republicans who would definitely vote for a GOP nominee if he were someone less odious than Trump, and who won't consider voting Dem because they are convinced that Clinton is thoroughly corrupt. They don't see any good options. The multi-decade propaganda campaign against the Clintons is really paying off this year for the GOP--it wouldn't be this close if there weren't so many people who are certain that Hillary can't be trusted.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:14 AM on September 29, 2016 [33 favorites]


Mmmm...reheated leftover nothingburgers.

As a Hashtag Millennial, I realized earlier this year that I had no idea what Whitewater actually WAS, just that it was some old Clinton scandal. So I looked it up. And oh my god, it is such a boring scandal! I found it almost impossible to believe that anyone had ever cared about it. I hope to god someone on Trump's team actually think it still has legs.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:15 AM on September 29, 2016 [57 favorites]


I guess it's nice to have yet another albatross to hang around Trump's neck, but the Cuba embargo is (was?) such a bad law that I wouldn't begrudge any American for breaking it.
posted by Flashman at 11:16 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Name a world leader. Any world leader.

"Uhh... hm... G-Galactus?"
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:16 AM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


Watch (if you can) as this poor MSNBC reporter recoils in palpable fear that he is going to lean over and start licking her yt .

hahahahahaha
posted by sallybrown at 11:16 AM on September 29, 2016


I found it almost impossible to believe that anyone had ever cared about it.

They wanted something to stick to the Clintons. Anything.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 11:16 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


All the undecided voters I know are conservative Christian Republicans who would definitely vote for a GOP nominee if he were someone less odious than Trump, and who won't consider voting Dem because they are convinced that Clinton is thoroughly corrupt. They don't see any good options. The multi-decade propaganda campaign against the Clintons is really paying off this year for the GOP--it wouldn't be this close if there weren't so many people who are certain that Hillary can't be trusted.

I'm the opposite - the ones I know are younger liberals who think of Clinton as a corporate war hawk, but a lot of them have been coming around to her, either enthusiastically or reluctantly.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:17 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


If Trump really does "go nuclear" on Clinton, I'm pretty sure that her team (and by extension, she) has been preparing for that for months and months. The debate itself showed how well she is able to prepare, and I'm sure nearly anything he has to "reveal" has already been anticipated.

I'm still a bit concerned by Assange's assertion that he supposedly has something he's going to release in October (surprise!) that will influence the election. That's something that I'm not sure the Clinton campaign can anticipate and prepare for.
posted by hippybear at 11:17 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Not sure how something that was no longer than 2 seconds counts as "too long," though.

posted by explosion at 10:53 AM on September 29 [+] [!]


Perhaps Marla, Ivanna, or Melania could explain how 2 seconds of something could be too long. . .
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 11:17 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Mothra Twins choose Mothra Twins for running mate.

Maybe it's time to have identical twins for president. I know the constitution allows only one person, but how are you going to know who is who when one runs out of the Oval Office and the other one appears? DNA is not going to help. Maybe we could get those Jeremy Irons twins. Or Hayley Mills.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:18 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Current headlines on that site

It is far too early in the morning for me to start drinking, sadly.
posted by corb at 11:18 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pierre Salinger:
...the President called me into his office in the early evening. "Pierre, I need some help," he said solemnly. "I'll be glad to do anything I can Mr. President," I replied. "I need a lot of cigars." "How many, Mr. President?" "About 1,000 Petit Upmanns." I shuddered a bit, although I kept my reaction to myself. "And, when do you need them, Mr. President?" "Tomorrow morning."

I walked out of the office wondering if I would succeed. But since I was now a solid Cuban cigar smoker, I knew a lot of stores, and I worked on the problem into the evening.

The next morning, I walked into my White House office at about 8 a.m., and the direct line from the President's office was already ringing. He asked me to come in immediately.

"How did you do Pierre?" he asked, as I walked through the door.

"Very well," I answered. In fact, I'd gotten 1,200 cigars. Kennedy smiled, and opened up his desk. He took out a long paper which he immediately signed. It was the decree banning all Cuban products from the United States. Cuban cigars were now illegal in our country.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:20 AM on September 29, 2016 [78 favorites]


or any other Basic Software

10 PRINT "I NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING"
20 GOTO 10
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 11:21 AM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


You invalidated your ballot.

This is a reminder that when you vote you should follow instructions precisely and without creativity. Imagine your ballot was being counted by someone with views opposed to yours, and give them no opportunity to silence you.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 11:21 AM on September 29, 2016 [88 favorites]


If Trump really does "go nuclear" on Clinton, I'm pretty sure that her team (and by extension, she) has been preparing for that for months and months.

Nah, she ran for President in 2008 - she's been preparing for it for years.
posted by LionIndex at 11:21 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


I have to admit that I have become rather fond of Orange Julius! He is doing us a great service!
He probably will lose the election, and that is good. But beyond that he is doing a great job in demolishing the party he is fronting for, and that is a great service to us all
posted by Postroad at 11:22 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Mmmm...reheated leftover nothingburgers.

I thought we were having schemed shams.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:22 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Science Reality has a well-known anti against-rich asshole bias.

Momentarily forgot about the Trump-->rich asshole browser plugin but, on reflection, I think I'll leave it as is
posted by Fezboy! at 11:23 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Whee! The post title quote is from what I used for my senior quote!
Carry on.

posted by phunniemee at 11:23 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh yeah... Trump's Razor.

I started to wonder if Trump had done a giant rail of coke before going on


So that's what Trump's Razor is for!
 
posted by Herodios at 11:24 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Maybe it's time to have identical twins for president. I know the constitution allows only one person, but how are you going to know who is who when one runs out of the Oval Office and the other one appears?

Twin magic!
posted by uncleozzy at 11:25 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


he thinks that if he says something, it magically becomes true.

I don't know if I'd go that far, but he definitely has shown time and time again that he thinks that if he says something, people will believe it is true. And that that is all that is necessary. And hey, it's worked well enough for most of his career.
posted by baf at 11:26 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I found it almost impossible to believe that anyone had ever cared about [Whitewater]...

They wanted something to stick to the Clintons. Anything.


The same is true of the Benghazi witch hunt, which they also don't really give a shit about:
13 Benghazis That Occurred on Bush's Watch Without a Peep from Fox News
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:26 AM on September 29, 2016 [48 favorites]




I've got an undecided in my family. He's still a diehard BernieOrBuster who believes Clinton stole the primary, and cannot reconcile himself to her more hawkish leanings either. his Facebook posts have increasingly become more anxious about how he cannot reconcile himself to either option and probably just won't vote at all.

I'd like to believe this is entirely an act to avoid drama with his Trump-fan parents who he, his wife, and child live with. But if it is, I sure wish he'd drop a coded message in there or something, because I would reeeeally like to shake him by the shoulders and ask him to get his head on straight. If only for the sake of his immigrant wife, Latinx nephews, and queer in-laws.
posted by Stacey at 11:28 AM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


He has been undoing all that with his public displays of bigotry, of misogyny.

I'm not sure he has. Or, rather, if he goes down as tragically as I think he's about to go down, I don't think this respite for the forces of "hey, let's be assholes" is going to suddenly be normalized for the long run.

A lot of Trump's supporters see him as The Big Alpha Male™, who they, also being big alpha males, must follow. Ignoring their lack of understanding of herd dynamics, the more Trump looks like a flailing mess, a looser or a cry baby the more they're going to feel the need to distance themselves from him. They'll try to reason themselves out of this, hell, they already are - see every Hillary was wearing a wire, the moderator had it in for him, his mic was sabotaged, etc. story out there, but it going to wear at them. There's going to be an asshole bump in the short term and there will always be the unrepentant, but I think that boil is going to be lanced pretty hard in November.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:28 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]




After watching the Gary Johnson thing, I feel like he's getting a bit of a raw deal. He wasn't asked to name any world leader, he was asked to name a world leader he looked up to and admired. Arguably libertarians don't admire any foreign leaders because they don't believe the world outside the U.S. borders really exists.

That being said, he gave the *very* strong impression that he would not be capable of naming any world leader whatsoever. And when he finally came up with one ("the former president of Mexico") he was unable to remember the man's name without help.
posted by edheil at 11:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


Mothra Twins choose Mothra Twins for running mate.

Maybe it's time to have identical twins for president.


Soul Asylum had a better idea.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:30 AM on September 29, 2016


It's been almost 24 hours...and I still can't come up with a foreign leader I look up to. (real)

Going for the spin eh? Nice try, Count Olaf as Stephano. But the question was, respect, not look up to.
posted by cashman at 11:32 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Right now if I Google 'Trump' for news and click view more every single link is Cuba. You have to go to another page to get to anything else. Same for other people?
posted by Jalliah at 11:32 AM on September 29, 2016


All the candidates went into great detail on the economy, which dominated questioning to the near-exclusion of social issues. (This, of course, may have been the influence of Perot,

The economy was in the middle of a brutal, long-lasting recession that was throwing millions out of work. Millenials are not the only ones who had to deal with harsh economic times.
posted by My Dad at 11:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


I mean, Canada is north of the USA, so at least he'd look up to Justin Trudeau anyway.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 11:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


As a Hashtag Millennial, I realized earlier this year that I had no idea what Whitewater actually WAS, just that it was some old Clinton scandal. So I looked it up. And oh my god, it is such a boring scandal! I found it almost impossible to believe that anyone had ever cared about it.

That was pretty much the reaction of everybody at the time, too - everybody except the New York Times and Congressional Republicans. Check out the Wikipedia article. The entire thing was driven by reporters at the Gray Lady. Being politically aware at that time makes the current coverage rhyme in a way that exposes how utterly stupid the e-mail and Clinton Foundation stuff is. Josh Marshall reflected on this a while ago:
And yet here we are again - with an almost infinite, process-driven scandal that can easily continue on into a Clinton presidency, if there is one. Consider it. Clinton and her lawyers have separated her work emails from personal ones and then sent the work ones to the State Department. But Republicans will never believe that the filtering was on the level. And by apparently destroying the personal ones, that means that Republican questions and press questions will meet a permanent question mark. Presumably even if she wanted to let a third party review all the emails now she can't. So the deleted emails will remain the permanent fantastical repository for the decision not to prevent a rescue of Chris Stevens, give orders to erase warnings about safety at the Benghazi consulate and more.

If you'd been through the numskull scrutiny the Clintons were subjected to in office - the bogus "Whitewater" investigation, the purported murder of staffers, the Lewinsky investigation - you'd probably want to block off every avenue of scrutiny too. But the relationship between the Clintons and the press and the political class generally is codependent, toxic and frankly ridiculous on both sides - with extreme self-protection and legalism on one hand and hyperbole, nonsense and wolf-crying penalties on the other. Like any perennial and bad relationship it is exhausting to watch and generally impossible to pick apart where one part ends and other starts. Which is a reaction to the other, which is first? I have no idea anymore. It hardly matters.

In the main, none of these 'scandals' ever end up having a real there there. Not because the Clintons are good at covering things up but there just wasn't anything there in the first place. But the one thing the Clintons bring is drama. All the time. They may not be looking for it but they find it. Always.
He wrote that in March 2015.
posted by one_bean at 11:34 AM on September 29, 2016 [49 favorites]


edheil: "Arguably libertarians don't admire any foreign leaders because they don't believe the world outside the U.S. borders really exists."

They also can't point to any nations on earth that have tried the sorts of things that libertarians are advocating for because the US is already the most libertarian of developed nations. Which means, annoyingly, libertarians are usually free to argue “if we just tried a completely deregulated market it would work” no matter the topic because the most recent counterexamples are from, like, Victorian England.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:34 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


> Whee! The post title quote is from what I used for my senior quote!

Mine was "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

I never thought how prescient that quote would be.
posted by Gelatin at 11:34 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'm still a bit concerned by Assange's assertion that he supposedly has something he's going to release in October (surprise!) that will influence the election.

They finally found the Whitey tape!
posted by asteria at 11:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


showbiz_liz, Whitewater was one of the "big things" in my first voting election and I don't think I've ever really been able to drum up enough interest to know what it is. So, uh, kudos to you for the research I guess. I've met snakes with more legs.
posted by meinvt at 11:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


You shouldn't have to agree with someone to respect or admire them. If Johnson can't even say some milquetoast response like "Well I think Justin Trudeau has been a very civil and admirable leader and I respect him for that, even though I agree with very few of his policies", how is he going to make any sort of effective compromise as President?
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [18 favorites]


Arguably libertarians don't admire any foreign leaders because they don't believe the world outside the U.S. borders really exists.
He's not really a Libertarian, as I pointed out in an earlier post. I did a ton of reading on Johnson in order to convince a relative to vote for him instead of Trump (I live in a safe dark blue state, it's ok) and came to the conclusion that Johnson is just a hard right Republican who picked up the bong vote to steal millennials from Obama.
posted by xyzzy at 11:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


I have to admit that I have become rather fond of Orange Julius! He is doing us a great service!
He probably will lose the election, and that is good. But beyond that he is doing a great job in demolishing the party he is fronting for, and that is a great service to us all


I hope that's true, but I fear that the GOP will figure out that a campaign of authoritarianism, xenophobia, and racism has a good chance of succeeding if the message if coming from someone who is not an obviously megalomaniacal moron. Give Trump's message to a faithfully married Christian of more modest means who held a governorship or a senate seat and things could be realllllllllllllly bad.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:37 AM on September 29, 2016 [29 favorites]


..While Clinton was poised and prepared...
... the Clinton camp seems to be prepared for such an event...
...The debate itself showed how well she is able to prepare...
...Do the Trump campaign people not think that Clinton's team hasn't already prepared for this?

Let's face it: Hilary is Batman.
posted by PlusDistance at 11:37 AM on September 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


It's been almost 24 hours...and I still can't come up with a foreign leader I look up to. (real)

This quote needs to be in every thread from now until the election:
June 6 -- Boosting his friend George W. Bush to reporters, Gov. Gary Johnson of New Mexico recalls a conversation they had at a conference on state government. ''George turns to me and says, 'What are they talking about?' I said, 'I don't know.' He said, 'You don't know a thing, do you?' And I said, 'Not one thing.' He said, 'Neither do I.' And we kind of high-fived.''
posted by tonycpsu at 11:37 AM on September 29, 2016 [112 favorites]


>If Trump were to wage all-out war on the Clintons, he could rely on a veritable ocean of muck that the American right wing has accumulated over the years,

Or he could talk about his experience, his qualifications, and his policy ideas. Oh wait.

Seriously, all she has to do is point out that he's talking this stuff up because he's got nothing. NOTHING. Can I get a larger typeface? HE'S GOT NOTHING TO RUN ON. NOT A FIG.

Every time I try to look at something on YouTube on the Roku, where I can't block the ads, I get a Trump ad that says (appropriately for the intended audience, in three-word sentences), 'America made safe. Terrorists kept out.' You know, forty thousand people a year die in car accidents in this country, yet most people manage not to live in constant fear of them. And a candidate who promised to make you safe from car accidents (or shark attacks, or lightning strikes) would be immediately recognized as a guy making empty noises with his mouth, as a guy with nothing to talk about.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 11:38 AM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


Well, we've never seen Hillary and Batman in the same room together... so, I guess there's that.
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:39 AM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


Arguably libertarians don't admire any foreign leaders because they don't believe the world outside the U.S. borders really exists.

In that case he should've said something like "Chris, I'm wary of admiring leaders. As Bob Dylan once said, "Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters." And as President, my first act will be to meter the salaries of politicians!"
posted by octobersurprise at 11:39 AM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


I'm still a bit concerned by Assange's assertion that he supposedly has something he's going to release in October (surprise!) that will influence the election.

By October, it'll likely be too late for Assange to substantively influence anything. Whatever 'bomb' he drops will need to be vetted, and his and Wikileaks' recent, uh, interesting dalliances with both the alt-right and Russian hackers will undermine his credibility. If he had anything of value to drop, he'd do it now.
posted by Existential Dread at 11:40 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


And oh my god, it is such a boring scandal! I found it almost impossible to believe that anyone had ever cared about it.

If you think it's bad when these threads re-litigate issues from the primary, just wait until we're re-litigating the Clinton "scandals" of the 90s.
posted by nubs at 11:40 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


[Election 2016] If you stand for nothing, what’ll you fall for?

You won't fall at all, having never gotten up off of the floor, in the first place...
posted by littlejohnnyjewel at 11:41 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Damn, Octobersurprise! I was going to vote for The Quidnunc Kid, but you totally just got my vote.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:42 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Bringing this back from the previous thread:

Have other presidential campaigns been so leaky? I understand the practice of strategic leaks but Trump's don't seem that way at all even with Trump's razor considered. For example Acosta got a copy of their talking points document. I know from a couple of campaigns I've worked on those are really guarded. And here a reporter gets them all? Is that normal?


Every campaign has leaks (and leakiness is generally a precursor to losing), but I can't remember a campaign that has been as leaky as Trump's. I suppose it's a given considering how undisciplined he is and how much turnover there's been in his staff.

I can't wait for the tell-all books his campaign staffers are sure to write as soon as it's all said and done.
posted by joedan at 11:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Certainly there must be Somali warlords who have done things he liked.
posted by ckape at 11:44 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


[Election 2016] If you stand for nothing, what’ll you fall for?

You won't fall at all, having never gotten up off of the floor, in the first place...


yeah but the floor could be a ledge and you could roll off of it
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:45 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


If Johnson truly believes that all ~200 current world leaders are loathsome dimwits, as people are inventing as a defense, he could have just owned it: "Chris, there isn't a single leader in the world that I respect, because none of them place freedom as their most fundamental value. That's the change I want to make in this election".

That would have played great as a soundbite and aligns well with his base -- people who think everything is terrible. I mean, this is what we call bombing an interview. If a candidate for your workplace answered a question with a response like that, you'd rightfully think they were a bong-addled moron.
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:45 AM on September 29, 2016 [33 favorites]


Why does the unsubstantiated appearance of impropriety stick to Clinton so much more strongly than the evidence of impropriety sticks to Trump? Have people really fallen into a bottomless pit of truthiness?

I talked to a Trumpie recently who had all sorts of smack to talk about Clinton. Oh, she's so corrupt, she's arrogant, Ben Ga Zee, emails blah blah. When I refuted all of those points, and she was out of actual reasons, her answer was "Well, I just go with my gut."

Good thing she's not eligible to vote. ::shimmy::
posted by Kitty Stardust at 11:45 AM on September 29, 2016 [42 favorites]


Every campaign has leaks (and leakiness is generally a precursor to losing), but I can't remember a campaign that has been as leaky as Trump's.

In fairness, there hasn't been a campaign that's had so much stuff to leak in a long damn time. Mostly it's just boring internal polls.
posted by Etrigan at 11:46 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald Trump's medical report, as read by Dr. Zoidberg. Whoopwhoopwhoopwhoop!
posted by nicebookrack at 11:46 AM on September 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


Gary Johnson is already insufferable, he doesn't need to start quoting Bob Dylan
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:47 AM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


I really, really wish the IRS would develop a leak.

Or, c'mon, someone take one for the team, and beg for a presidential pardon, in the name of the country!
posted by Dashy at 11:47 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


Do the Trump campaign people not think that Clinton's team hasn't already prepared for this?

The Clinton campaign has prepared for it, but the press hasn't prepared to do anything but follow the bait when the big takeaways from the debate that HRC and her top surrogates are pushing were about stiffing businesses and not paying taxes.

The aim will be to ratchet up things so that CNN essentially has a "10 Days Till Trump Talks About Bill And His Penis" countdown clock, with surrogates hinting things and cablenews yacking about what he might say, what the response might be, which groups of voters it's aiming at, etc. Polling companies will start to ask about the 90s and whether Trump should raise the topic, which essentially lodges it in people's heads.

(It most likely will end in another "I'm just too polite to say it" bait-and-switch.)

I'm not saying that it's 27-dimensional chess, but when Stone and Bossie and Ailes are running some of the show, there's an obvious danger in thinking that Trump campaign is digging its own grave by fixating on women's bodies for days and days and days. It takes the focus off Clinton on the trail as she's shifting up a gear -- no prompter, a bit more riffing -- and deserves to earn headlines.

In passing: this official Trump ad (page 2) in a Columbus, OH coupon book is really fascinating in its deliberate amateurishness.
posted by holgate at 11:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


During my lunch break, I took a peek at the Red Pill subreddit (obviously not linking, sheezus) to see what they thought of the debate in Evil Misogyny World. And, in their own special vocabulary, they credited Hillary with having the more dominant Alpha performance. Trump looked like a beta to them, while Hillary displayed "amused mastery."

If that's not a begrudging acknowledgment of her win, I don't know what is.
posted by witchen at 11:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [110 favorites]


I can't wait for the tell-all books his campaign staffers are sure to write as soon as it's all said and done.

They've all signed crazy strict NDAs.
posted by zakur at 11:51 AM on September 29, 2016


My current 2016 campaign fantasy is that Trump keeps nthing down on the Lewinsky thing and then Clinton releases an ad in which Lewinsky tells her story and talks about her anti-bullying campaign and then endorses Clinton. Unlikely to happen, I know, but would be so awesome.

My other campaign fantasy is that someone, somewhere from Camp Clinton finds a way to use Ivana Trump's line (one of my personal mottos) from First Wives Club: "Don't get mad, get everything."
posted by melissasaurus at 11:52 AM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


What's going on outside Trumpton with the GOP? Has all the Koch money gone into the state elections? Did any sort of efficient working on-the-ground party machine materialise?
posted by Devonian at 11:54 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure what video game boss Gary Johnson is but I swear I can hear the Chocobo theme playing in my head every time I see him talk

He's not really a boss, he's the one who talks a big game but folds quickly. If Mass Effect were real, he'd be Conrad Verner.

"Uhh... hm... G-Galactus?"

That's world leader, not world eater.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:54 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Why does the unsubstantiated appearance of impropriety stick to Clinton so much more strongly than the evidence of impropriety sticks to Trump?

Misogyny.
posted by joedan at 11:55 AM on September 29, 2016 [79 favorites]


Clinton releases an ad in which Lewinsky tells her story and talks about her anti-bullying campaign and then endorses Clinton

Clinton and Lewinsky working together would bring up the vitriol against both women to a whole another level of ugly imagery, with Bill thumbs up, grinning the whole time. That would rile up the evangelicals further.
posted by Karaage at 11:56 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


My campaign fantasy is that Mitt Romney decides that he can still have a place in the history books as the savior of the American Republic and starts actively campaigning for Clinton. He obviously despises Trump and he knows that Trump would be a dangerously unstable president. I disagree on 98% of Romney's policies, but he's sane and has a sense of honor. There might not be a big chance, but I think there's a more than 0% possibility that he decides to try to swing the balance.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:56 AM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


I really, really wish the IRS would develop a leak.

If this happened, wouldn't his campaign simply claim the documents were a forgery, and then the IRS would refuse to comment on the authenticity of the returns, being as they were illegally obtained?
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:56 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


How can Johnson not name a single world leader when dreamy Justin Trudeau is in headlines again for being charming with (royal) babies?
posted by nicebookrack at 11:57 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


In passing: this official Trump ad (page 2) in a Columbus, OH coupon book is really fascinating in its deliberate amateurishness.

Come on, that can't be official, can it? That has to just be Jimmy-coupon-printer going into business for himself. "Corrupt" is misspelled, for chrissake.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:00 PM on September 29, 2016


I really thought this was going to be the Libertarians big year. They had two former GOP governors who seemed on paper to give the ticket real credibility. The major party nominees have low approval ratings. Lots of GOP/Libertarian friendly donors are sitting out the Presidential contest and refusing to give to Trump -- the money should be there.

Johnson has managed to completely fuck up. He peaked at 12% in the polls and has fallen back to 8%. He hasn't be able use use national media appearances to break out, instead he's blowing easy questions and offering no message discipline. He can't present himself as a credible option and so the big donors like the Koch brothers are staying out.
posted by humanfont at 12:00 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


What do we have here? Why it's the Cuba talking points!

Trump's campaign is a sieve right now.
posted by Talez at 12:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


So Trump won't reveal his plan to defeat ISIS, but he'll telegraph the attack line he's going to use in the second debate?

I mean, honestly... he can't. He simply can not now bring up Bill's infidelities, because he's given Clinton far too long to come up with a response. So much time, in fact, that I suspect she not only is prepared with a response, she's calculated all his possible follow-ups in case this is some elaborate trap, and she's got a response ready for that. Because the only thing she telegraphs is the fact she'll damned well out-plan Trump.

I mean, I wouldn't put it past her to have somehow not gone after him hard enough in the first debate in order to provoke this discharge when it would have the least possible effect on her, and the most negative effect on him.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 12:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


He's not really a Libertarian, as I pointed out in an earlier post. I did a ton of reading on Johnson in order to convince a relative to vote for him instead of Trump (I live in a safe dark blue state, it's ok) and came to the conclusion that Johnson is just a hard right Republican who picked up the bong vote to steal millennials from Obama.

I was talking with a Libertarian friend about Johnson on Facebook today. I don't think he would mind me reposting this here. I found it all pretty interesting.

Me: I get the impression that he's very informed in some areas but not so much in other, pretty crucial ones.

Him: Agreed.

The big fight within the LP this year was between the "AnCap" faction and what I'm going to call the "rational" faction. The AnCaps literally boo'd the government prohibiting the blind from driving.

Johnson himself has his problems regarding on the spot trivia (not to minimize that, these are important factoids, and I expect a presidential candidate to be MORE informed than myself). However, his policy positions are absolutely the best the LP has had in 20 years, and really provide a strong basis for a mainstream party.

To compare,

Take Bob "The Moustache" Barr in 2008. The man was pro-life. Thankfully, the LP's platform now reads:

"Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration."

Me: I imagine that if current trends continue and the Libertarians get more mainstream, they'll also wind up dumping the more radical/weird parts of the platform?

Him: Oh man. There was a great article on this... I'm having a hard time finding it.

Basically the premise was that from 1970ish-2008ish the LP was kept alive by "radical/weird" parts tending the flame on rigidly held principles, but from 08 on, as the party has become more mainstream, the rigidity of the platform has been softened, because you don't build a big tent/coalition without compromise.

Thus the whole "Gary Johnson is not a true libertarian!!1!" meme.
----

From my viewpoint, there are several major factions in the Libertarian coalition:

Classical Liberals (Gary Johnson)
AnarchoCapitalists /minarchists / libertines (naked guy, Mcaffee, code wilson and defense distributed)
Silicon Valley Libertarians (Most of these are philosophically aligned, but not yet politically.)
Cyberlibertarians (JP Barlow, EFF etc)
Small Government Republican Refugees (the Pauls, Bob Barr)

Thankfully, the "Alt-Right" (white supremacists, bigots etc) has left the LP in favour of Donald Trump. Which in the future will hopefully make the LP more appealing to the Si Valley libertarians.

posted by showbiz_liz at 12:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]




Our girls wanted to watch the first debate.

7-year-old: Why is he being so rude?
4-year-old: He needs glasses. He's squinting.
7: Why does he keep talking over her? Oh, that was really rude!
4: Donald Trump, you need to be more polite!
7: No, no, no, not Trump!
4: I can't look any more! *runs away*
posted by gottabefunky at 12:02 PM on September 29, 2016 [148 favorites]


What do we have here? Why it's the Cuba talking points!

Trump's campaign is a sieve right now.


It's as if, taking their cue from the man at the top, Trump's campaign is too lazy even to do interviews.

[fake]

REPORTER: Any comment on $TOPIC?

TRUMP CAMPAIGN SPOX: Hold on, I'll email you our talking points.

[/fake]
posted by Gelatin at 12:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Clinton and her lawyers have separated her work emails from personal ones and then sent the work ones to the State Department.

Honestly, this is the real problem with using your work email for personal use - it's nearly impossible to sort even with the best intentions, and the normal thing you'd do for compliance - sending everything - risks all kinds of personal communications being now a matter of public record and exposable. Once she already did that, there was no good way forward for her.
posted by corb at 12:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Gottabefunky, that is basically the entire last election thread, perfectly summed up.
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Stein trolls Johnson on world leaders gaffe, also fails to name world leaders [real]

A day after Johnson was unable to name a world leader he admired when asked at an MSNBC town, Stein tweeted out a list of her own. May, Stédile, and Corbyn, however, aren't technically world leaders, as none holds a top position in their country's government. May is a member of the Canadian House of Commons. Stédile is an economist and member of Brazil's Landless Rural Workers Movement, which he helped found. Corbyn is the leader of the Labour Party in Britain.

Ehhhhhh, i'll give her that one. They're definitely leaders in the world, granted maybe not as internationally known. 3/4 of the voters in america wouldn't recognize those names, much less the fact that they aren't technically heads of state.
posted by Karaage at 12:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


In passing: this official Trump ad (page 2) in a Columbus, OH coupon book is really fascinating in its deliberate amateurishness.
  • Is that default Times New Roman or one of the new Microsoft fonts?
  • Bulleted lists that ramble and Use Inconsistent Methods of Capitalization.
  • Is "Extremely Successful Real Estate Developer of Hotels, Commercial Office Space, Etc." a job title? If not, Why Is Every Word Capitalized?
  • ALL CAPS IN RED
  • Positions statements that require:
    1. A nested list
    2. Why are they numbered?
    3. STOP using caps lock.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


What do we have here? Why it's the Cuba talking points!

Trump's campaign is a sieve right now.


And now they get to freak out about who is leaking everything as well!
Though with Trump's Razor as a guide it could very well be just due to simple stupidity, like someone goes to the bathroom and leaves their papers where people can get to them.
posted by Jalliah at 12:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's worth noting that one of Stein's choices, Elizabeth May, also has a history of playing footsie with the "WiFi signals are killing our children" and homeopathy crowds.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


Come on, that can't be official, can it?

You'd think so, wouldn't you? But I'm sure it fits into its context. And if you look at wingnut junk mail -- or just the crazy collage images that every other fucking Trumpsterbot slaps up on social media -- then there's definitely a Great-Uncle Ernie Bought Microsoft Publisher aesthetic to it.

hashtag 2016 everything is trolling.
posted by holgate at 12:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


4 : I can't look any more! *runs away*

I did exactly this when Lester Holt asked started asking his questions about race, so good for your youngest.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clinton campaign now directing people straight to early voting office after rally in Iowa.

This is what a ground game looks like. They are not letting this up for a second. Full court press until the very end.
posted by Talez at 12:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [92 favorites]


Clinton releases an ad in which Lewinsky tells her story and talks about her anti-bullying campaign and then endorses Clinton

This would be amazing. Unlikely to ever happen, but amazing.

"This election, and our country, is too important to stay home or vote for a candidate who doesn't have a chance. So I'm with Her. And if I can put my differences with Hillary Clinton aside in the interests of protecting our country from Donald Trump, anyone can."
posted by sallybrown at 12:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


I really thought this was going to be the Libertarians big year. They had two former GOP governors who seemed on paper to give the ticket real credibility.

Well, they've certainly continued in the proud tradition of former-Massachusetts-governors-turned-presidential-candidates.
posted by Mayor West at 12:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Monica strikes me as a very sad, dignified, wise woman, and I am grateful she has not put herself in the hands of Trump like Flowers and Broaddrick. I'm unsurprised she wants no part of this business.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [62 favorites]




Exclusive: The Creator of Pepe the Frog Is Voting for Hillary:
In 2005, Matt Furie—then in his early 20s—created a comic book called Boys Club in which a cartoon frog named Pepe acted out the dumb, laid-back stoner culture of post-college bros. Pepe, along with a wolf, a dancing bear, and a sarcastic dog, would play harmless pranks on one another. Furie, who was living in San Francisco at the time after attending Ohio Wesleyan University, would print the comic out at Kinkos and mostly distribute it to his small group of friends.

Today, the Anti-Defamation League officially recognized Furie's cartoon frog as a hate symbol, one that has been hijacked by the alt-right and Internet trolls, championing white nationalism and a cartoon-frog-looking hero, Donald Trump.

It's thrown Furie into what he calls an idiotic joke, where his innocent frog is now listed alongside the swastika and the burning cross and other "symbols most frequently used by a variety of white supremacist groups and movements," the ADL explains.

But that is not in any way what Furie—a professional artist who makes comic and children's books—originally intended.
My buddy and I recently saw the collected 'Boys Club' for sale at a local comics shop and felt bad for how this poor dude's work has been appropriated by assholes.
posted by palindromic at 12:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [49 favorites]




Come on, that can't be official, can it?

My favorites things about that:

1) Tries to depict Hillary as a "blank slate" despite that being the opposite of the usual Trump tactic and the dumbest imaginable move
2) Cites "presidential candidate" as one of Trump's qualifications
3) "Lady VP of construction"
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:16 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


God, what must that be like, to design something that then becomes a hate symbol? I can't even imagine.
posted by corb at 12:17 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


In my world where Donald comes at Hillary with Bill's various sins, she just lays some hard "I wouldn't pull at that thread" facts at him and then Nicki Minaj comes out and goes, "What's good, Donald?"

But I'm petty like that.
posted by ApathyGirl at 12:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


What do we have here? Why it's the Cuba talking points!
The Clinton Spin Machine and their allies in the media are getting desperate, and it's pretty sad they have to go back 10, 20 or even 30 years to try to try [sic] to attack Mr. Trump.
Whitewater: 27-37 years ago
Suicide of Vince Foster: 23 years ago
Monica Lewinsky affair: 20 years ago
posted by kirkaracha at 12:21 PM on September 29, 2016 [33 favorites]


God, what must that be like, to design something that then becomes a hate symbol? I can't even imagine.

feels bad man
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:21 PM on September 29, 2016 [79 favorites]


to try to try [sic] to attack Mr. Trump.

The [sic] is unnecessary. In Trumpland they're not just trying to attack Trump. They're trying to try to attack Trump.
posted by mazola at 12:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


...it's pretty sad they have to go back 10, 20, even 30 years to try to attack ...

...it's pretty sad they have to go back 10, 20, even 30 years to try to attack ...

...it's pretty sad they have to go back 10, 20, even 30 years to try to attack ...

Remind me, what century were Bill Clinton's sexcapades in, again?

(on preview, kirkaracha.)
posted by invincible summer at 12:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I for some reason, was watching the first town-hall debate — the one in 1992 with Bush, Clinton, and Perot...

Today:
You hear that giant sucking sound ?

That's Donald Trump.
...ad infinitum.
posted by y2karl at 12:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


The Clinton Spin Machine and their allies in the media are getting desperate, and it's pretty sad they have to go back 10, 20 or even 30 years to try to try [sic] to attack Mr. Trump.

Just a reminder that the Trump Foundation revelations generally occurred within the last decade.

But that's okay, Donald, we know your record of double-dealing dates back decades.
posted by Gelatin at 12:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


The thing I find really frustrating about Johnson is that, unlike most Libertarians, he actually does have designs on maintaining certain military conflicts, particularly in the Middle East. So he wants to cut the military in half in terms of budget and personnel, but still expects our guys and gals to fight their hearts out against ISIS and other terroristic enemies while continuing to defend Israel and intervening in places like Somalia and Uganda. And despite this, he didn't know what Aleppo was and can't name foreign leaders.

This is consistent with a common thing I see in libertarians -- Details Don't Matter. Privatization takes care of it. Private force takes care of it. Liberty takes care of it. Shit's easy.

And the funny thing? The little-l libertarians I've known are less libertarian and more supportive of public commons and regulation in the areas where they know more details (even if of course that's an exception, and as a general rule, the Big Ideas are The Right Thing, right?).
posted by wildblueyonder at 12:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump expanding his campaign pledge to EVERYTHING: "We have 41 days to make possible every dream you've ever dreamed."
— Alexandra Jaffe @ajjaffe
Who is it who promises to fulfill your ever dream? Let's see — could it be Satan?
posted by octobersurprise at 12:29 PM on September 29, 2016 [58 favorites]


And there are hints that Trump plans to use Bill Clinton's sex scandals against Hillary, which could go very badly for him, as the Clinton camp seems to be prepared for such an event.

Everyone is prepared for such event. There's dredging up old news, like no one cares old.

For (personal) perspective: there was some comedian at a daytime review-type show Las Vegas circa 2004 who had a Clinton BJ joke, and it was cringe-worthy old then.

The only reason I could see bringing up such old items is that 1) of course, they have nothing else to say to distract from the (old) Cuba revelation, and/or 2) they're trying to "inform" younger voters on Bill's past performances, to sour them on Hillary ... for not leaving Bill? Somehow Donald is better because he's on marriage #4 or whatnot?
posted by filthy light thief at 12:29 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I was a Republican in the first part of the 90s and even I thought the Whitewater thing was poo.

(maybe that's why I'm not one anymore? Rush Limbaugh didn't help, that's for sure.)
posted by emjaybee at 12:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump expanding his campaign pledge to EVERYTHING: "We have 41 days to make possible every dream you've ever dreamed."

trumpo.com
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [26 favorites]


Flashman: "I guess it's nice to have yet another albatross to hang around Trump's neck, but the Cuba embargo is (was?) such a bad law that I wouldn't begrudge any American for breaking it."

You don't get credit for breaking a law for that reason unless you do it publicly ala civil disobedience.

savetheclocktower: "Which means, annoyingly, libertarians are usually free to argue “if we just tried a completely deregulated market it would work” no matter the topic because the most recent counterexamples are from, like, Victorian England."

Plenty of failed states have deregulated markets.
posted by Mitheral at 12:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Who is it who promises to fulfill your ever dream? Let's see — could it be Satan?

No, Pedro.
posted by zakur at 12:35 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


In passing: this official Trump ad (page 2) in a Columbus, OH coupon book is really fascinating in its deliberate amateurishness.

Holy crap. I'm not even sure Philip K Dick was enough of a fatalist to predict a future where a false flag operation to discredit someone's supporters as unhinged lunatics with the mental acumen of a room full of third-graders is indistinguishable from actual campaign activities.
posted by Mayor West at 12:37 PM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


In passing: this official Trump ad (page 2) in a Columbus, OH coupon book is really fascinating in its deliberate amateurishness.

Am I bad at identifying celebrities, or is Rosie O'Donnell on page two in a photo montage with Gene Simmons?
posted by snofoam at 12:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Boy's Club is currently available at the Humble Book Bundle: Forbidden Books collection; $1 gets it and several others.

I got it (I get a lot of HumbleBundle book sets), looked through it, and I am entirely unsurprised that Pepe was grabbed as a mascot for people who think "fuck you, I do what I want" is a reasonable political philosophy. He's shown in a "Got MILF" t-shirt, and later with one that says "Happiness is a Large Gutpile" over a picture that I'm very glad was a line drawing and not colored. (I don't know why Pepe instead of one of the other characters, though.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


If the Cuba thing could plausibly be made as effective ammunition against Trump (which again I doubt), it would be on his proposed import tariffs: If Trump's own businesses willfully ignored legal embargoes, why would other businesses not off-the-books importers to get around enormous import tariffs?
posted by 0xFCAF at 12:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


"We have 41 days to make possible every dream you've ever dreamed."

Internal monologue:

Oh, haha, very funny, another rando on Twitter trying to make a name for herself with a thinly-veiled Broadway musical analogy.

Wait. The phrasing is wrong. It couldn't be...

*googles*

*shakes fist* 2016!
posted by Mayor West at 12:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's worth noting that one of Stein's choices, Elizabeth May, also has a history of playing footsie with the "WiFi signals are killing our children" and homeopathy crowds.

Elizabeth May has been surprisingly effective in opposition as the only Green MP in Canadian Parliament, and frequently the most effective debater when she's been in federal election debates. She's an engaging and insightful author who is, with exceptions, plausibly sensible. She's is carrying her party on her shoulders, the only reason the Greens are taken halfway seriously as a national party. If Stein's goal is to split the vote and get Trump elected she couldn't pick a better role model.

Fortunately for all of us, Stein ain't no May.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


Whitewater? Really? Even when that was fresh no one could make it sound interesting. The Republicans were all scuffing their feet and muttering about real estate.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 12:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Josh Marshall on the Machado bait: These words amount to what we might term 'stand-up narcissism', a demonstration of a personality defect so profound and total that it becomes comedic in a way that makes a decent run at transcending its own awfulness. His self-regard and conscienceless-ness is so total that it is beyond him to realize that his "a good deed never goes unpunished" lament doesn't make him look like a chauvinist asshole so much as a clownish version of a chauvinist asshole. It so perfectly mirrors Trump's self-immolation with the Khans that it's hard to believe the Clinton staffers who planned this could have imagined it would work so well.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


savetheclocktower: "Which means, annoyingly, libertarians are usually free to argue “if we just tried a completely deregulated market it would work” no matter the topic because the most recent counterexamples are from, like, Victorian England."

Plenty of failed states have deregulated markets.

I actually came to point out that we came close enough here, and it was a disaster. A reminder that The Jungle is now freely available on Project Gutenberg.
posted by mordax at 12:44 PM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


Hillary Clinton has been prepared for someone to bring up Bill's infidelity ever since it came out, if not before. It's not like it's new material, people have been trying to tar her with that brush since the nineties. She's not just prepared, she's practiced. It's, like, the absolute most obvious line of attack anyone could take against her, and it's never worked yet—with the exception of her defeat in the 2008 primaries, her political career has been a relentless upward climb since pretty much forever.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:45 PM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


Earlier today, I was thinking there's just so many people I wish were still around to give us their take on this election cycle and especially on Trump: Hunter S Thompson, Molly Ivins, George Carlin, Anne Richards... the list goes on and on.

I bet the articles they're writing and the shows they're doing in Heaven about all this are absolutely mind-blowing.
posted by lord_wolf at 12:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


if you're in the afterlife that gets coverage of the 2016 presidential election I have some bad news for you
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [173 favorites]


They also can't point to any nations on earth that have tried the sorts of things that libertarians are advocating for because the US is already the most libertarian of developed nations. Which means, annoyingly, libertarians are usually free to argue “if we just tried a completely deregulated market it would work” no matter the topic because the most recent counterexamples are from, like, Victorian England.

@LukewSavage:
Gary Johnson says a lot of stupid shit. But know what's stupider? A political philosophy that seeks to commodify the fucking air supply.

CHRIS MATTHEWS: "Name a world leader"
GARY JOHNSON: "The entire prison system should be run for profit"


CHRIS MATTHEWS: "Name a world leader"
GARY JOHNSON: "Collective bargaining is a moral evil"


CHRIS MATTHEWS: "Name a world leader"
GARY JOHNSON: "Workplace safety laws are a classic example of government overreach"


Ron Paul on Civil Rights "a massive violation of the rights of private property and contract, which are the bedrocks of free society.”

Anyways, it's super cool that libertarians want to legalize pot.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:52 PM on September 29, 2016 [70 favorites]


I can imagine a version of Heaven that allows for a constant stream of smug superiority to the mortal realm. But if you're in the same afterlife as Hunter S. Thompson, then you are in fact screwed.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


National treasure Charles Pierce relates that a circuit court has struck down New Hampshire's law banning "ballot selfies."
posted by Gelatin at 12:54 PM on September 29, 2016


But if you're in the same afterlife as Hunter S. Thompson, then you are in fact screwed.

I dunno, if I end up on Riverworld, I'd be totally cool with Hunter S. Thompson on my raft.
*thinks*
Oh. I see your point.
posted by mordax at 12:56 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Ron Paul on Civil Rights "a massive violation of the rights of private property and contract, which are the bedrocks of free society.”

Particularly odious due to the historical discourse on "property rights" being often code for slavery
posted by thelonius at 12:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


My buddy and I recently saw the collected 'Boys Club' for sale at a local comics shop and felt bad for how this poor dude's work has been appropriated by assholes.

I think Furie can look to Chuck Tingle on a lesson on how to conduct world-class countertrolling. I hope Furie can figure out a way to take back his own creation and stick it to the racists in the process.
posted by tclark at 12:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


It so perfectly mirrors Trump's self-immolation with the Khans that it's hard to believe the Clinton staffers who planned this could have imagined it would work so well.

Observing how effectively Clinton has baited Trump time-and-time-again through precision-targeted attacks on his ego is similar to the feeling of watching a dog being repeatedly fooled by fake throws of a tennis ball, or a wayward toddler being tricked into eating his vegetables by making a "fun" game of it. Only instead of cute and amusing, it's pathetic and scary.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


Nevada has just turned blue in the 538 polls-only forecast.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [61 favorites]


If you think Whitewater is boring, wait until you learn about Travelgate, a scandal that involved seven years of investigation over a couple of employees in the White House Travel Office being fired. Even Kenneth Star couldn't find anything to pin on Bill Clinton over this.
posted by zachlipton at 12:59 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]




That Josh Marshall article also reiterates a key point about the Machado trap: The 'charges' against Trump are nothing more than things he said on video. There are no charges. Just quotes. There is nothing in dispute. It's just showing people what he said.

Indeed.

That's why any debate with Clinton is, ultimately, a trap. With a smile and a shimmy, Clinton showed that she can transcend people's unfairly unfavorable opinions of her; Trump showed what he always shows -- that he's a raging, unprepared, intemperate blowhard. His fans eat it up; the majority of Americans, as polls consistently show, not so much.

I actually came to point out that we came close enough here, and it was a disaster.

Indeed, and Democrats fail to point this fact out often enough when Republicans complain about regulations: We tried an unregulated free market already, and it was a disaster.
posted by Gelatin at 1:02 PM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


Today I had the distinct privilege of attending an open discussion with Jamelle Bouie, (Slate chief political corespondent + CBS political news analyst) who came to talk to folks at my company about race and politics.

He had a lot of really smart, big-mind things to say about the current election. But he opened with remarks about the Republican party and how they've changed over the years.

I was able to ask a question: "As the republican party becomes radicalized, I'm worried that it will pull the democratic party to the right. You've told us what you're seeing on the right, can you talk a bit about what you are seeing happen on the left?

He said that there are a lot of lefts
- The washington institutional left - there is optimism because the rise of immigrant, POC, and female voters are giving the party more power. In the 1990s, the democratic party decided to abandon the far left and try to scoop out centrists, to gain power. But today, because of these new people joining the party, there is no electoral pressure to move to the right.

- The activist left: Some optimism, e.g. the Black Rights Matter movement has had a huge rise, and more and more Americans are sympathetic to BLM. But there is also pessimism because many activists see the problems in the nation as being intractable.

- The (for lack of better name) "Bernie Sanders Left": still adrift. Many different things attracted people to sanders, and there's no clear issue to coalesce around. It still remains to be seen if sanders' supporters will join politics, or if they will just give up.

He finished his answer by saying that it is really, really easy for small groups of people to make a difference. He said that you and 25 of your friends can go downtown and join the party and then suddenly you ARE the local party branch. And your local branch has a national voice. This is what happened with the tea party. If sanders' supporters wanted, they could drastically change the democratic party over the next 10-15 years.

I thought that was super interesting, so big thanks to Jamelle if you are on metafilter for coming out.
posted by rebent at 1:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [136 favorites]


this official Trump ad (page 2) in a Columbus, OH coupon book is really fascinating in its deliberate amateurishness

you sure it's deliberate?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 1:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Cmd F "Draining" "France" "Election"
posted by piyushnz at 1:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


What It’s Like to Be a Female Reporter Covering Donald Trump:
“I think you don’t realize the emotional cost of every single day, twice a day, being in rooms where the norm has become people shouting out, ‘Hang the bitch,’ ‘Kill her,’ ‘Cunt,’” [an anonymous woman] reporter said. “You shouldn’t be at the point where you hear ‘Cunt’ and you think, Oh, they’re angry at Hillary, or you hear ‘Bitch,’ and you’re like, Oh, they’re talking about our former secretary of State.”

She went on, “I do wonder what it does to you as a woman, walking into rallies where people are wearing these shirts, saying these things, and speaking about women in these ways, and either having to hear it or getting to the point where you don’t hear it. Those words and those phrases should be jarring. That should never become normal, and if and when it does, some emotional cost has been extracted.”
Thirty-nine days, eight hours, fifty minutes until this election is over...
posted by Doktor Zed at 1:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [118 favorites]


Kinda sucks to see Gary Johnson getting pilloried for his ignorance rather than his horrible political views (from twitter).

CHRIS MATTHEWS: "Name a world leader"
GARY JOHNSON: "Workplace safety laws are a classic example of government overreach"

CHRIS MATTHEWS: "Name a world leader"
GARY JOHNSON: "The entire prison system should be run for profit"
posted by straight at 1:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


Particularly odious due to the historical discourse on "property rights" being often code for slavery

Yeah! If an entire society wants to engage in a conspiracy to block certain races from essential private services then those people affected should find a new society!

Strict libertarians are such fucking morons.
posted by Talez at 1:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Frankly, I’m concerned that Gary Johnson may be damaging the cause of legalization.
posted by nicepersonality at 1:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


Gary Johnson says a lot of stupid shit. But know what's stupider? A political philosophy that seeks to commodify the fucking air supply.

Not sue what this is referring to, but it probably isn't about a Moon Is A Harsh Mistress–type situation where air really is a commodity since, y'know, you live on the moon. Anyway, regarding the more general point, the nice thing about commodities is that they belong to people, and if someone else damages them then the owner has the law on their side to fix the situation.
Before the Clean Air Act was passed in 1972, Milwaukee was dumping raw sewage into Lake Michigan. Chicago was having to clean up its drinking water from Lake Michigan to get Milwaukees sewage out. Chicago sued -- the state of Illinois, really -- sued Milwaukee and said, You are polluting our water; its our property right to clean water; youre taking it from us. The court ruled, all the way to the Supreme Court, I believe, that Milwaukee was violating Chicagos rights. Along came the Clean Water Act, EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) set down some technological standards, said, Put these filters on your pipes. Milwaukee did it. It still didnt clean the water up; but Milwaukees defense was, Weve done what government said we have to do. It basically obliterated a property rights solution and substituted for it a far less superior regulatory solution. And to this day, Milwaukee dumps raw sewage into Lake Michigan.
EconTalk Episode with Terry Anderson, a founder of "Free Market Environmentalism"

I'm surprised at how much pushback Gary Johnson is getting here. My assumption is that people vote for third parties more on the basis of their founding principles than on the personal characteristics of whoever the candidate is this year.

Is anyone here genuinely concerned that he'll take more votes from Clinton than from Trump in swing states? Because if not, just let people vote third party to make a statement, and look forward to President Clinton in 2017.
posted by Rangi at 1:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Clinton releases an ad in which Lewinsky tells her story and talks about her anti-bullying campaign and then endorses Clinton

I’ve fantasised about Monica Lewinsky coming out in favour of Hillary, because I imagine her looking at a misogynist bully like Trump and, umm, not liking him.

But even it wasn’t for all the very good personal reasons why she might not want to endorse Hillary: I just can't see her putting herself back in the crossfire like that. She’s probably dreading being dragged back into this whole shitstorm as it is, without encouraging it.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:20 PM on September 29, 2016 [38 favorites]


OK so there's been a massive schism in the alt-right, The Daily Stormer has come out against Breitbart's own Milo Yiannopoulos (all links in this post are archive.is links because I'm not linking direct to this trash). Breitbart has noticed and shots have been fired.

I'm pretty fucking smug right now.
posted by Talez at 1:20 PM on September 29, 2016 [40 favorites]


I get the sentiment, but the countdown clocks are misleading. This election has awoken forces that won't go away quietly, and the 2018 mid-term begins on November 9th, 2016, as the Democrats will be facing a massive battle to either hold their bare Senate majority, or to stop the bleeding and prevent the Republicans from taking commanding control. Dems are defending 25 seats to only 8, with no obvious pickup opportunities and only ground to lose in states like Montana, West Virginia, Ohio, Missouri, Indiana, Florida, and even Pennsylvania or Michigan. Another no-show in the midterm like 2010 and 2014 puts Republicans in sight of 60 seats in the Senate, and control of the House ahead of the 2020 census and the opportunity to lock in unbreakable gerrymandering for another decade.

November 8 is not remotely the end point.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:20 PM on September 29, 2016 [61 favorites]


I don't really know what an undecided voter looks like in this election.

Good bet they're white, male, and straight.


Just about every Republican? Yep.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:21 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Is anyone here genuinely concerned that he'll take more votes from Clinton than from Trump in swing states?

Yeah, it does look like Johnson is taking some Clinton votes, since Clinton goes up by more points in a 2-way than Stein gets in the 4-way, and Trump does not go up as much in the 2-way as Johnson gets in the 4-way.

Colorado
Clinton 46, Trump 40, Johnson 6, Stein 2
Clinton 51, Trump 44

Florida
Clinton 45, Trump 43, Johnson 3, Stein 1
Clinton 48, Trump 45

North Carolina
Clinton 44, Trump 42, Johnson 7
Clinton 49, Trump 45

Pennsylvania
Clinton 45, Trump 39, Johnson 6, Stein 2
Clinton 49, Trump 44

Virginia
Clinton 46, Trump 40, Johnson 7, Stein 1
Clinton 49, Trump 43

Source
posted by rabbitrabbit at 1:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Mom! The deplorables are fighting again!
posted by zachlipton at 1:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [18 favorites]


Man I really dislike the NPR politics podcast, especially Sam Sanders. Trying to show sensitivity for the "low information voter." ("They're just trying to get a sense of these guys!")

Sam Sanders' Twitter is interesting and smart but on the podcast it seems like he's just chatting before an action movie or something, while also trying to do some massive false equivalence.
posted by zutalors! at 1:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Is anyone here genuinely concerned that he'll take more votes from Clinton than from Trump in swing states?"

Sure:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/clintons-third-party-headache-226700
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-is-gary-johnson-taking-more-support-from-clinton-or-trump/

I mean, who knows, it's hard to tell, but there is at least some evidence in that direction.
posted by bfields at 1:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


If anything comes up in the next week or so that causes me to lose confidence in the direction this campaign is going, I will read this article in today's Washington Post ("The first debate was a defeat for Trump. Here’s why the second could be an outright massacre"), especially the video it contains from a Town Hall during the primaries where she was asked a question about humility.
posted by DanSachs at 1:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [22 favorites]


Since there's no fucking way I'm clicking on even the archive links, what exactly is the cause of the schism?
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Jim Wright has published his characteristically-irate take on the debate over at Stonekettle Station.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:27 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Today, the Anti-Defamation League officially recognized Furie's cartoon frog as a hate symbol, ... But that is not in any way what Furie—a professional artist who makes comic and children's books—originally intended.

alt-right spin: Creator of an officially recognized racist hate symbol voting for Hillary! [fake, afaik]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:27 PM on September 29, 2016


I don't really know what an undecided voter looks like in this election.

The Guardian published a few of their statements this morning.
posted by still_wears_a_hat at 1:29 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I clicked that archive.is link at work, and now I regret it. :\
posted by defenestration at 1:30 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, it does look like Johnson is taking some Clinton votes, since Clinton goes up by more points in a 2-way more than Stein gets in the 4-way.

Counts for both her and Trump go up, and in all states she maintains basically the same lead:

Colorado: Clinton +6 → Clinton +7 (+1)
Florida: Clinton +2 → Clinton +3 (+1)
North Carolina: Clinton +2 → Clinton +4 (+2)
Pennsylvania: Clinton +6 → Clinton +5 (−1)
Virginia: Clinton +6 → Clinton +6 (+0)

I'm not worried about Johnson or Stein causing any of these states to go for Trump.
posted by Rangi at 1:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Since there's no fucking way I'm clicking on even the archive links, what exactly is the cause of the schism?

Milo is Jewish and doing 'Jewish' things.
posted by Jalliah at 1:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


what exactly is the cause of the schism?

Stormer is upset with Milo/Breitbart's more inclusive alt right approach [real]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


> OK so there's been a massive schism in the alt-right, The Daily Stormer has come out against Breitbart's own Milo Yiannopoulos
In some previous thread there was a Milo/Ernst Röhm comparison, inluding “outliving usefulness”... I guess we're there now.
posted by farlukar at 1:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've been saying that sooner or later Milo would try cuddling up to Nazis only to discover that Nazis hate homosexuals even if they're Nazi fetishists. I guess I'm glad this happened in a way that didn't involve violence?
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


I live in California and I am undecided for president. I might vote for Clinton. I might not.

If she loses California, however (barring some significant actual scandal), I will eat my shoes.

So it doesn't matter whom I vote for. I think that's why a lot of voters (i.e. everyone who doesn't live in one of those 5-6 swing states) are disaffected. We don't feel represented.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Man I really dislike the NPR politics podcast, especially Sam Sanders. Trying to show sensitivity for the "low information voter." ("They're just trying to get a sense of these guys!")

God, this. Sam Sanders is trying to win a Pulitzer for false equivalence. "This week, Trump admitted he's literally in consort with the Dark Lord Satan, but Clinton still is facing questions about her emails! Really both candidates are facing some challenges this week now that the Hellmouth is open due to an alleged ritual sacrifice done in Mike Pence's basement, which we do have footage of."
posted by 0xFCAF at 1:34 PM on September 29, 2016 [30 favorites]


We tried an unregulated free market already, and it was a disaster.

No, it was a disaster for everyone who wasn't already a rich, white, cis-het-etc dude, or directly under the protection of same. Well, and for certain unlucky dudes who failed to guess correctly which way the market would jump, but who cares about those losers?

The point is, if we had a free market today, with all our amazing info-resources, we could all get rich er many people would be better um several well-off white dudes could switch to being amazingly wealthy white dudes, so it's definitely time to bring that back.

[/sarcasm]

Non-sarcasm: I am endlessly entertained (because the other option is "collapse into a fetal position weeping") at how many far-right and libertarian proposals boil down to "please make it a law that I never have to give a damn about the life of any other human being."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:35 PM on September 29, 2016 [22 favorites]



The Guardian published a few of their statements this morning.


Mostly boil down to "Trump is a racist, but Hillary isn't doing enough to sway me based on the zero research I have done. It's also not my fault that Hillary isn't Bernie!"
posted by zutalors! at 1:36 PM on September 29, 2016 [34 favorites]


I think one legit reason to hope the polls are underestimating Clinton's actual lead is that in modern history we've never had such a huge disparity in campaign organization and get-out-the-vote ground game, so nobody really knows how much of a difference that disparity will make in getting voters to the polls. I assume some polls might try to take that into account as they weight their results, but I doubt they would err toward overestimating the effect.

So if a good GOTV ground game really does make a difference, I think it's reasonable to hope the current polls are underestimating how much better Clinton will do at getting her voters to the polls in the states where it matters most.
posted by straight at 1:36 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Sam Sanders has been horrible this entire election. His assignments seem to be "imagine the US consisted only of middle-aged white men who work in factories in Ohiogansylvania; who is winning that fictitious election and why are all other peoples' issues irrelevant?"
posted by melissasaurus at 1:37 PM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


NPR engage in false equivalence? You don't say.

That said, credit where due: On Monday Steve Inskeep turned in an outstanding profile of a Trump voter, who predicted "civil war" -- not that he plans to participate, mind you -- if Clinton wins.
posted by Gelatin at 1:37 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Since there's no fucking way I'm clicking on even the archive links, what exactly is the cause of the schism?

As I understand it, the Stormers claim that Milo Yiannopoulos has some sort of Jewish ancestry and so he's "He is taking our brand, our symbols, and turning them against us for a neocon-Jew conservative agenda." Then they call him a bunch of slurs for a Jewish person a few dozen times and call on people to harass him in public.

Basically, it seems they believe that Milo is soft-pedaling the horribleness of the alt-right, commercializing their dank memes and trying to convince people that only a small percentage are racist anti-Semites. As they wish to be known as the true racist anti-Semites, they are horrified someone, especially someone with any Jewish blood, would seek to diminish their importance, and so these guys have declared war.

Milo's scheduled talk on "How Feminism Hurts Women" at Florida Atlantic University was cancelled due to threats.
posted by zachlipton at 1:38 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]



God, this. Sam Sanders is trying to win a Pulitzer for false equivalence.


He said to be fair Donald Trump IS smart for dodging taxes. NPR Politics podcast is also annoying because the younger reporters are all "but we're millennials, how can we be expected to remember like, Bush and Kerry?" Meanwhile Harry Enten at 538 and all the Vox folks can talk in depth about like Eisenhower.
posted by zutalors! at 1:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


The Daily Stormer has come out against Breitbart's own Milo Yiannopoulos (all links in this post are archive.is links because I'm not linking direct to this trash)

*clicks*

...why is it Pokémon-themed‽
posted by Rangi at 1:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


If she loses California, however (barring some significant actual scandal), I will eat my shoes.

So it doesn't matter whom I vote for.


You saw that whole Brexit thing happen, right?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [100 favorites]


Gary Johnson thought the question was about a "whirled lieder" which are spinning German solo songs. Even I couldn't name one of them.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


At this point, and for safety's sake, I think we all need to keep a close eye on Trump campaign sites and watch for any unusually large deliveries of Kool-Aid.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Since there's no fucking way I'm clicking on even the archive links, what exactly is the cause of the schism?

Milo has been on the edge of the alt-right for a while now. He's really opportunist and people have been going either way on him. He's wrapped in his own scandal of stealing money for a white nationalist scholarship and his long known about "sexual degeneracy" being an openly gay man in what is basically a neo-nazi movement.
posted by Talez at 1:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


...why is it Pokémon-themed‽

4chan.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 1:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


...why is it Pokémon-themed‽

Pokémon is the Hamilton of much of the internet.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


Milwaukees defense was, Weve done what government said we have to do. It basically obliterated a property rights solution and substituted for it a far less superior regulatory solution. And to this day, Milwaukee dumps raw sewage into Lake Michigan.

Okay, but that's not replacing a free-market solution with a regulatory one, it's replacing a case-specific rule (you can't damage another person's property unreasonably with water pollution, for whatever definition of "unreasonably" a particular judge likes) with a national one that Gary Johnson says isn't strong enough (the Clean Water Act and its implementing regulations). The government is telling you what amount of water pollution is allowed either way.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Breitbart has noticed and shots have been fired.

Do they always put his name in ALL-CAPS for some reason?
posted by waitingtoderail at 1:43 PM on September 29, 2016


So it doesn't matter whom I vote for.

Personally, I think a clear and crushing repudiation of white supremacist fascism matters. YMMV.
posted by chris24 at 1:44 PM on September 29, 2016 [146 favorites]


NYT: Split Over Donald Trump and Cut Off by Culture Wars, Evangelicals Despair

I don't know if I count as an Evangelical anymore, but as a Christian I'm super bummed out by how many Evangelicals are supporting Trump. Seems like for a lot of them 30 years of right-wing propaganda that HRC is literally Satan has convinced them that absolutely anything would be better than her as president.
posted by straight at 1:46 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Before the Clean Air Act was passed in 1972, Milwaukee was dumping raw sewage into Lake Michigan. Chicago was having to clean up its drinking water from Lake Michigan to get Milwaukees sewage out. Chicago sued -- the state of Illinois, really -- sued Milwaukee and said, You are polluting our water; its our property right to clean water; youre taking it from us. The court ruled, all the way to the Supreme Court, I believe, that Milwaukee was violating Chicagos rights. Along came the Clean Water Act, EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) set down some technological standards, said, Put these filters on your pipes. Milwaukee did it. It still didnt clean the water up; but Milwaukees defense was, Weve done what government said we have to do. It basically obliterated a property rights solution and substituted for it a far less superior regulatory solution. And to this day, Milwaukee dumps raw sewage into Lake Michigan.
The guy who used to be in charge of the organization that gave us "Buy Ivory, Save an Elephant?" has some good ideas. Thanks so much for sharing!
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:47 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]




So it doesn't matter whom I vote for. I think that's why a lot of voters (i.e. everyone who doesn't live in one of those 5-6 swing states) are disaffected. We don't feel represented.

You're not represented because the person you want to win will probably win even if you don't vote? So elections only matter if they're really close and you personally get to cast the deciding vote?
posted by bongo_x at 1:50 PM on September 29, 2016 [78 favorites]




oh, izzatso?
posted by mazola at 1:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Fred Clark on the emotional integrity of a sincere liar:
On one side of that divide we have those who think that truthfulness has to do with speech that corresponds with external realities. On the other side we have those who think that truthfulness is a matter of passionate sincerity and sincere passion — of speech that corresponds with the speaker’s sentiments.
posted by metaquarry at 1:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


...that she already released? Wat?
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mostly boil down to "Trump is a racist, but Hillary isn't doing enough to sway me based on the zero research I have done. It's also not my fault that Hillary isn't Bernie!"

At this point in the race undecided voters seem to come in about four flavors:

Low information, just started paying attention.
Not really undecided, just fancy themselves "independent."
Regard elections as referendums on their own personal morality
Nuts

As to the latter, Buck is my favorite:
"[I want a government] that is somewhere between Libertarian and the Green party. Libertarian in general but with futuristic education, healthcare, and welfare systems covering all citizens while proactively protecting our environment. We could afford that, and a fantastic national infrastructure too, if we got out of the war business, brought all our troops home, and stopped subsidizing everyone else’s foreign wars that cost us trillions."
Look, you can't blame a dude for wanting to live in Star Trek.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [40 favorites]


No. The personal emails she deleted. She has to get them back somehow, and then we're allowed to talk about his taxes again.
posted by zachlipton at 1:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Would those be the emails the feds said were deleted the way everybody deletes emails, and not in order to hide something?
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump can't release his tax returns until Clinton shows us her high school diary. That's just simple physics; apparently the lamestream media can't even do math. Sad!
posted by 0xFCAF at 1:56 PM on September 29, 2016 [36 favorites]


I thought the Trump campaign's Russia office was working on that.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:56 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Okay, but that's not replacing a free-market solution with a regulatory one, it's replacing a case-specific rule (you can't damage another person's property unreasonably with water pollution, for whatever definition of "unreasonably" a particular judge likes) with a national one that Gary Johnson says isn't strong enough (the Clean Water Act and its implementing regulations).

Yeah, that's basically all about creating inefficiency in the name of how Libertarians *feel*. We have several basic options with regard to clean air and water:

1) Forget them.

2) Make a set of general rules everyone is expected to follow.

3) Allow this to go to court every time.

(1) isn't workable. See my referencing of The Jungle above. I think we can all agree we don't want to live in a poisoned hellscape - even Libertarians acknowledge that. Sort of. Sometimes. Mostly?

The difference between solutions (2) and (3) are basically about efficiency: companies can more easily plan for general, predictable rules than for individual rulings. It's no guarantee outcomes will be perfect - nothing is - but it at least allows everyone to be on the same page with how things should look before they break ground on new sites or anything.

In addition to being chaotic and unpredictable, (3) places smaller entities, (individuals, small businesses), at a distinct disadvantage against big ones. Think you're going to sue British Petroleum, private citizen? Heh. Nice one.

tl;dr: regulations may not be perfect, (I'm frequently unhappy with specifics), but the solution is 'better regulations' not 'court battle GO.'
posted by mordax at 1:56 PM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


God, this. Sam Sanders is trying to win a Pulitzer for false equivalence. "This week, Trump admitted he's literally in consort with the Dark Lord Satan, but Clinton still is facing questions about her emails! Really both candidates are facing some challenges this week now that the Hellmouth is open due to an alleged ritual sacrifice done in Mike Pence's basement, which we do have footage of."

I had an immediate visceral reaction to this comment of ‘hang on a minute, why am I reading this thread when I could be curled up in a dark room wallowing in the dependable reassuring comfort of rewatching Buffy?'
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


No. The personal emails she deleted

Should have clarified. Sorry.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]



Trump can't release his tax returns until Clinton shows us her high school diary. That's just simple physics; apparently the lamestream media can't even do math. Sad!

I think there is probably something about ISIS in her emails when she was an activist at University. She should release those too.
posted by Jalliah at 1:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


So it doesn't matter whom I vote for. I think that's why a lot of voters (i.e. everyone who doesn't live in one of those 5-6 swing states) are disaffected. We don't feel represented.

I live in Washington, DC, so I get where you're coming from. It doesn't matter who I vote for for president. DC's three electoral votes are Clinton's surest thing. I'm still voting, because every vote does matter. It is important to me that Donald's hateful agenda get denounced as strongly as possible, and my vote will make what I'm hoping to be a big landslide a tiny bit bigger. It needs to be as big as possible.

As for not feeling represented, I don't feel represented because I do not have a voting representative in the House, nor do I have Senators (and we only got those three electoral votes in 1961!). You do. Your Representatives and Senators make decisions for me and the almost 700,000 residents of the District of Columbia. If Donald is elected.....the District's relationship with conservatives in Congress is already sour, and given their track record, it's likely that we will be the guinea pigs for some of his more odious policies. Please remember this when you're making your downballot decisions.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 1:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [80 favorites]


This whole "take your pollution case to court" idea is moronic because it's based on the Coase Theorem, which has low transaction costs as a prerequisite. But a court case is probably the largest transaction cost a person could even imagine. It's like how Verizon figured out that it's basically fine to overcharge all people by $5, because once you ban class action, no individual can overcome the transactional barrier.

It just doesn't scale at all. How would you handle burning of leaded fuels? Sue each driver on the road for the tens of dollars of long-term damage they're doing to unknown future humans? It's insane.
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:00 PM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


Melissa Harris-Perry: How Trump Is Exploiting Clinton's Race Problem
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


On the subject of Milo:

There's a Neil Gaiman Sandman story where serial killers hold a secret convention. One dude isn't a serial killer; he's just a wormy wannabe who pretends to be one who's actually died, and sneaks in, because he wishes he was. When the real killers find him out, he protests: I understand what you do! I believe everything! I want to learn! You can probably guess how well this was received. (NSFL)

Milo, together with Katrina Pearson and other minority alt-righters, remind me of that story sometimes. For their own sake, I really don't want them to find out what's at the end of the rainbow they are chasing.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:02 PM on September 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


I am voting Clinton even though no one thinks Texas will go blue, because a. I have to go vote downticket anyway and b. fuck my state's current political landscape, seriously. Every Clinton vote I imagine as a tiny stab in that ignorant, hateful hellbeast. Not enough to kill. Not yet. But satisfying.
posted by emjaybee at 2:02 PM on September 29, 2016 [81 favorites]


I live in Puerto Rico. We pay Social Security tax and are required to register to be called up if the draft should return but have zero say about the general election for president. Viva democracy.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:04 PM on September 29, 2016 [41 favorites]


So it doesn't matter whom I vote for. I think that's why a lot of voters (i.e. everyone who doesn't live in one of those 5-6 swing states) are disaffected. We don't feel represented.

you know California will go for Clinton because lots and lots of Californians will get up and go to the polls and actually make the effort to vote for her and other Democrats, not because of some immutable natural law, right
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [133 favorites]


Trump Spokeperson Katrina Pierson: "The Media can't report on Trump not releasing his taxes anymore (since he has made it conditional on the release of Clinton's emails)"

I am honestly waiting for the moment when a Trump spokesdroid says something like this and a press member steps up and simply says out loud and on mic, "The fuck we can't, you stupid fuck." We have enough time left for things to boil down to this point. First round of beer is on me when it happens, kids. "Two-Hearted for the house, barkeep!"
posted by Thorzdad at 2:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Worth remembering that the popular vote is Trump's second chance for at least a pretend victory so it would be nice to see him solidly defeated there as well.
posted by Artw at 2:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [66 favorites]


So it doesn't matter whom I vote for. I think that's why a lot of voters (i.e. everyone who doesn't live in one of those 5-6 swing states) are disaffected. We don't feel represented.

I would argue it's because those unwilling to vote for Clinton over Trump are under-internalizing the potential damage Trump would cause to people and economies at home and around the world, or over-prioritizing their personal negative feelings about Clinton. In other words, they either lack understanding of what a Trump win would mean and what the chances are that it would cause disaster, or for some reason they can't bring themselves to align with Clinton. If you (not you personally, the general "you") understand that President Trump would almost certainly result in the kinds of statements, regulations, and Executive decisionmaking that would crash the national economy in ways unprecedented in our country's history (toppling the global economy that rests on our national economy); would have a higher chance of deploying a nuclear weapon than any President since Truman; would implement religious tests that betray our Constitution and founding principles; would make decisions based on what would enrich him personally; than your reason for not voting must be (a) you feel voting would be meaningless, and/or (b) you are unable to overcome some profound discomfort that voting for Trump's only real opponent makes you feel. But voting is of negligible cost to most people - a short few minutes of your time and perhaps some advance planning, especially in any early voting state. It's one of the few things our country requires of us, and far less painful than any other similar thing (paying taxes, registering for the draft). And it's slightly more important than meaningless, so why not do it? People of good conscience don't free ride. So what is really holding you back? If voting is not important, why not vote for Clinton? You dislike Secretary Clinton so much? Something in your self-conception demands that you not align yourself with her and her voters?

Lie to everyone if you have to. But don't go Nazi. In this election, silence is collaboration.
posted by sallybrown at 2:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [78 favorites]


So it doesn't matter whom I vote for. I think that's why a lot of voters (i.e. everyone who doesn't live in one of those 5-6 swing states) are disaffected. We don't feel represented.

well the way things shook out this year you will be represented at the executive level by either Trump or Clinton. If you prefer Clinton out of those two, you can rest assured that California's electoral votes will be going to her because lots and lots of Californians will get up and go to the polls and actually make the effort to vote for her, not because of some immutable natural law

so, take a moment out of feeling disaffected to be thankful for your fellow Californians who will be doing the work of helping to ensure your least unfavorite viable candidate gets elected! CA may be a foregone conclusion, but it doesn't happen by magic

edit: sorry for the sorta-double comment, it looked like the metafilter engines ate my first attempt
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [18 favorites]


NYT: Google Searches for Voter Registration Have Surged in Hispanic Areas

"Google trends data indicates that the searches for voter registration have surged over the last week — and that the highest rates of searches have been in disproportionately Hispanic areas.

By Wednesday evening, all of the top markets for searches for “register to vote” came in heavily Latino markets in Texas, California, Nevada, Arizona and Florida. The same pattern held into Thursday."
posted by chris24 at 2:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [27 favorites]


Non-sarcasm: I am endlessly entertained (because the other option is "collapse into a fetal position weeping") at how many far-right and libertarian proposals boil down to "please make it a law that I never have to give a damn about the life of any other human being."

No, its even worse than that. Nobody is forcing them to care, or even necessarily present an appearance of caring. Nobody expects a merchant selling you something to be passionate about collecting sales tax. They just have to do it. No, their problem is with any law that forces them to be even marginally inconvenienced for the sake of others.

I see this in the rabid frothing from the CopBlock folks, who I share a concern about accountability with. But many of them seem just as worked up over "road pirates," cops who might give them a ticket for speeding. The concept that a government might have a valid role in trying to shape the behavior of citizens into safer choices? Poppycock!

These folks, if asked to put down the game controller for five seconds and push a magic red button that would save someone's life, would tell you with anger that they'd been looking forward to beating this boss all week and to go bug someone else.
posted by phearlez at 2:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


I'm really disappointed in the Libertarian, to whom I donated not a small amount of time. I thought the problems with organization might have been local, but it appears it was but a microcosm.

I said from the moment I first heard from the candidates that their fortunes would have been so much better had they reversed the ticket. Weld has always seemed to be far more competent and eloquent.
posted by DrAstroZoom at 2:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump Spokeperson Katrina Pierson: "The Media can't report on Trump not releasing his taxes anymore (since he has made it conditional on the release of Clinton's emails)"

Yeah, good luck with that.

I wish the media would take the above statement as a challenge worth doing the hard work it'd take to report on the story, though. Ask David Farenthold -- sometimes it pays dividends.

(An interesting tidbit Farenthold mentioned in his Fresh Air interview was that he didn't set out to investigate Trump's foundation, merely the claim that he'd donated a million dollars to charity. And Trump's steadfast refusal to prove it led him to dig a little...then dig some more.)
posted by Gelatin at 2:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


I think one legit reason to hope the polls are underestimating Clinton's actual lead is that in modern history we've never had such a huge disparity in campaign organization and get-out-the-vote ground game, so nobody really knows how much of a difference that disparity will make in getting voters to the polls. I assume some polls might try to take that into account as they weight their results, but I doubt they would err toward overestimating the effect.

So if a good GOTV ground game really does make a difference, I think it's reasonable to hope the current polls are underestimating how much better Clinton will do at getting her voters to the polls in the states where it matters most.


There's a decent conversation at fivethirtyeight about what the polls might be missing, and Hypothesis #1 is the polls are underestimating Clinton's lead because of her superior ground game. The main point is that likely voter models should be picking up on that already. Part of Clinton's superior ground game is banking an early voting advantage. We saw that with Obama in 2012 and we saw it in almost every single primary. Clinton won the early vote (and often lost the vote share on election day but still won overall). Sanders supporters thought that meant that late voters were breaking for him - maybe, but it also reflected Clinton's organizational strength. As we get closer and closer to the actual election, more and more Clinton supporters will have already voted. The best way to identify likely voters is to ask them if they've already voted. My sense is that as we get closer and closer to Election Day, the polls will do a better job incorporating Clinton's superior ground game into their estimates.

Don't forget that a lot of postmortems thought Obama had a way better apparatus than Romney did in 2012. A lot of folks felt that he won Florida on the strength of his ground game. He was behind about 0.5% according to the polls on election eve, but he wound up winning by 0.5%. That's probably a good estimate of the influence of a superior ground game over and above what the polls are already capturing.
posted by one_bean at 2:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's surprising to me that people think their vote doesn't "matter" due to the large number of other people in the country.

For example, the sidewalks around my home aren't a disgusting mess only due to the large proportion of people who don't throw their trash on it. My own choice to not litter isn't some pointless gesture of civic pride - it's me engaging in the behavior that everyone has to in order to keep the place clean. It takes nearly all of us to not litter on the street. It takes many of us to vote for policies that don't actively screw with people's lives in profound and irreversible ways.

And if it turned out that half the country was hellbent on littering at every possible opportunity, it'd be even more important for me to try to not litter and to maybe do some more cleanup of my own.
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:16 PM on September 29, 2016 [66 favorites]


So it doesn't matter whom I vote for. I think that's why a lot of voters (i.e. everyone who doesn't live in one of those 5-6 swing states) are disaffected. We don't feel represented.

I don't mean to pile on, but I see so many people say some variation on this, and I'm sick of it. It honestly reminds me of anti-vaxxers, who are effectively relying on herd immunity to keep them safe from dying of whooping cough while opting out of the very process that grants them that safety.

I and countless other of your fellow POC, queer, immigrant, Jewish, Muslim, and/or disabled citizens have outright begged you (the general you) to get out there and vote, because it's the literal BARE MINIMUM thing you can do to stand in solidarity with us in this election where we have so very much at stake. Like, you don't have to get out there and march, you don't have to donate or volunteer your time, you don't even have to write impassioned screeds on the internet. You just have to vote. Because our stakes here are not abstract, they're distressingly concrete. Our stakes are the healthcare that keeps us alive, our right to marry who we love, our control of our reproductive choices, our first amendment rights, our economic wellbeing, our physical safety.
posted by yasaman at 2:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [191 favorites]


> I’ve fantasised about Monica Lewinsky coming out in favour of Hillary, because I imagine her looking at a misogynist bully like Trump and, umm, not liking him.

But even it wasn’t for all the very good personal reasons why she might not want to endorse Hillary: I just can't see her putting herself back in the crossfire like that. She’s probably dreading being dragged back into this whole shitstorm as it is, without encouraging it.


Lewinsky publicly endorsing Clinton seems like an extreme long shot. I doubt she has much fondness for either Clinton at this point. And she has remained a mostly private person in the intervening years.

If Trump does try to float the Lewinsky affair as an issue in this campaign, Hillary Clinton should simply respond that whatever Lewinsky may have done, it was decades ago and she doesn't deserve to be used as a prop for Trump to exploit for his own puposes. A simple "Shame on you, Donald Trump" and be done with it.
posted by Surely This at 2:19 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


I thought I read somewhere that Lewinsky wasn't supporting/voting for Clinton.

And, y'know, that's fine. That's totally fine.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's surprising to me that people think their vote doesn't "matter" due to the large number of other people in the country.

It's not the large number of people in the country, per se. It has more to do with how your particular state or district has swung over the years. Until Obama ran the first time, Indiana never mattered shit. But, for whatever reason, it swung for Obama. It still stayed hard Republican locally, though.

Election-night talking heads would do well to watch returns from Indiana. If it looks like we are actually going to elect Dems to both the Senate and Governorship, it's probably a good bet it's gonna be a Clinton landslide nationwide.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


0xFCAF: And if it turned out that half the country was hellbent on littering at every possible opportunity, it'd be even more important for me to try to not litter and to maybe do some more cleanup of my own.

Your statement captures my feeling seeing the "rolling coal" morons with their diesel smoke-stacks coming out of the beds of their jacked-up trucks - another reflection of the "screw it, I've got mine (and am going to spoil it)" attitude that Trump seems to have brought out.
posted by jazon at 2:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Apropos of nothing, I'm watching MTP right now, and I swear to God the look Joy Reid keeps giving Chuck Todd is definitely shades of "this is mine soon," and I love it.

Back on topic: Trump is polling at 30% among Latinx in NV?
posted by schadenfrau at 2:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


If I was Lewinsky I would probably just be out of the country for all of October/early November, someplace remote, and unavailable for comment.
posted by emjaybee at 2:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [27 favorites]


if they give MtP to Joy Reid I'll be so happy I won't even mind if Chuck Todd's sendoff doesn't involve a wicker man
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


Just repeating my main "reason to vote for Clinton even if you don't like Clinton" talking point.

She's much more likely to appoint progressive or progressive leaning justices to the Supreme Court. This effects policy for decades. Even if you object to Clinton on 75 different fronts, if you want to see progressive progress in your lifetime, vote Clinton and help make sure the court moves to the left (or at least away from the Scalian right).

If this doesn't persuade you but you are somebody who purports to support the rights of people who are currently oppressed in the United States, then vote look at the data about surging voter registration in Hispanic areas and consider voting in solidarity with the people most likely to be further oppressed under a Trump presidency.

If your argument is that you absolutely must not vote for Clinton because if she wins the Democrats will never change, consider whether you've done anything to usher in the kinds of changes that you'd like to see at the local level - like getting directly involved with local politics whose decisions impact you directly every single day. If the only attempt your making to change the Democratic party is to not vote for Clinton, then maybe that's not an especially strong reason to sacrifice the Supreme Court and vote against the interests of oppressed people.

I'm happy to share a long list of reasons to vote for Clinton if you need it but I don't want to clog up this discussion too much. My enthusiasm for her as a president runs deep.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [71 favorites]


"screw it, I've got mine"

Another way to see this - "whatever, let the other people in my Blue state feel like shitty sell-outs and do the emotional labor of voting for someone they aren't in love with politically...I'm going to stay home / throw my vote away and tell myself I stand for something! They'll make sure I'm taken care of and our world doesn't disappear in a great Trump-branded mushroom cloud!"
posted by sallybrown at 2:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [38 favorites]


Tecate Beer Commercial that trolls Trump.

"you're welcome, America."
posted by emjaybee at 2:27 PM on September 29, 2016 [38 favorites]


if they give MtP to Joy Reid I'll be so happy I won't even mind if Chuck Todd's sendoff doesn't involve a wicker man

Can we at least still have the bees?
posted by phearlez at 2:30 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Vote, godammit.

Vote.

Just... vote. (No, on second thoughts, get everyone you know to vote too. And everyone you don't.)

It doesn't matter if you're one of the five percent in the count, or one of the ninety-five. Vote.

(writes a man watching his country being fucked over by old white people. Who voted. Don't be that country, America.

You know what to do.)
posted by Devonian at 2:30 PM on September 29, 2016 [33 favorites]




2) they're trying to "inform" younger voters on Bill's past performances, to sour them on Hillary ... for not leaving Bill?

Eh, there's something there that someone with moral high ground could exploit, but Trump ain't that guy.

Like - in the twenty years since, we have come to broadly understand that it's not okay for a man at the top of an organization, even an unmarried man, even one who's not the leader of the free world - to have sex with an intern, because the massive power imbalance is not okay. And Bill Clinton has a history of having sex with or sexually harassing women who work under him, in a way that's massively not okay. And Hillary has a history of making these problems disappear by making the women out to be lying bimbos. And that's also not okay, not these days.

In a world with not this candidate, I'd appreciate seeing Bill Clinton admit that his relationships with women were inappropriate, and Hillary Clinton admit that her public and private responses to the same were also.

But that's not the world we live in right now.
posted by corb at 2:37 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Tecate Beer Commercial that trolls Trump.

I've never been more proud to be a borracho.
Seriously, y'all—Tecate with lime is the bomb and it's cheap!
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:38 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


I happened to post a note to Facebook today about voting, and about choosing from between the two candidates that actually have a chance at winning. Nothing new that y'all aren't saying, but just thought it was interesting I happened to post this before this conversation just erupted here on MeFi.

(Yes it's public and that's a little scary for me, I usually keep my FB fairly locked down. Be kind.)
posted by misskaz at 2:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Why vote?

Why turnout matters, even in true-blue districts: Large margins of victory make politicians more responsive to progressive goals

"They find instead that Democratic politicians use the information of their vote margin to adjust their votes: a loss in vote share leads Democrats to vote in a more conservative way than they would have otherwise. They find, “a 2.5% Democratic loss results in an average 12.8 switches per incumbent.”
posted by chris24 at 2:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [69 favorites]




And Hillary has a history of making these problems disappear by making the women out to be lying bimbos. And that's also not okay, not these days.

Y'know, that was the one thing my Mom could come up with when I tried to engage her about why she's against Hillary a couple months ago. It's an accusation I've never really seen the backup for, though, so I didn't fully know how to respond. (Mostly I figured there was no way to talk Mom around that issue because it hits her in a very personal place, you can guess why.)
posted by dnash at 2:50 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


There's a reason the concerns of seniors get lawmakers' attention and the concerns of younger adults maybe not so much.

Seniors vote .
posted by Gelatin at 2:52 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


I can't help but get a lil' sick to my stomach that no matter what the outcome, more than half the nation will be furious. The new President has an enormous job of gathering the deplorables, or non-deplorables, under a collective wing.

At least, I hope the new President would take up that job...
posted by Conway at 2:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]



Trump just denied his compny paid 4 Cuba trip during embargo + discussed falsely linking 2 charity. Proof time. Names not in story removed.


I can see him just waiting all day with this ready and waiting. Come on Trump, do what you do best. Deny. Okay here it goes. Bamm!

And wow that was a lot of money for Cuba at the time.
posted by Jalliah at 2:56 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's an accusation I've never really seen the backup for, though, so I didn't fully know how to respond.

It's less important that the claim is strictly true or not. When I watched Monica Lewinsky come out and talk on TED, the conspicuous absence within her narrative was any solidarity with or by Hillary. The problems and experiences that Monica Lewinsky was openly talking about going through, would Hillary have recognized those as a result of exploitation and misogyny?

But the way to problematize this is to suppose even if Hillary did things that hurt the other women, that too could be understood as an imperfect reaction to the misogyny that permeates our culture. Therefore it's not an ironclad reason to not vote for Hillary.
posted by polymodus at 2:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Apologies if this was posted elsewhere. Scientific American Grades the Presidential Candidates on Science.

tl;dr: There's only one passing grade. It's a D.
posted by sparklemotion at 2:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


I am entirely unsurprised that Pepe was grabbed as a mascot for people who think "fuck you, I do what I want" is a reasonable political philosophy. He's shown in a "Got MILF" t-shirt, and later with one that says "Happiness is a Large Gutpile" over a picture that I'm very glad was a line drawing and not colored. (I don't know why Pepe instead of one of the other characters, though.)

Yes very damning? I uh
posted by atoxyl at 3:00 PM on September 29, 2016


you know California will go for Clinton because lots and lots of Californians will get up and go to the polls and actually make the effort to vote for her and other Democrats, not because of some immutable natural law, right

Here's some more food for thought: in my own lifetime, California was a lot more swingy, to the point that one could consider it to be more Republican leaning (after all, it did produce Nixon and Reagan!) So what the hell happened?

Well, back in the early 90s, the CAGOP started to see demographic shifts erode the position of strength they had in the 80s. So the Republican governor of the time, Pete Wilson, decided that pursuing nativist policies would re-energize the GOP electorate. And they did, for a bit.

They also made it clear to minorities in the state that they either hung together, or hung separately. By the time you get to 2000, the state was a lot less white, and CA minorities were a lot less inclined to vote for a party that treated them as the enemy. And thus, CA became part of the "blue wall".

Things change. Don't just assume politics is static, because it isn't.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [57 favorites]


When I watched Monica Lewinsky come out and talk on TED, the conspicuous absence within her narrative was any solidarity with or by Hillary.

Talk about holding women to excessively high standards.
posted by Lexica at 3:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [70 favorites]


Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The: Nevada has just turned blue in the 538 polls-only forecast.

My replies: 1) good to see it slightly blue, and 2) WTF Arizona - you were with us for a while back in August, and then y'all went back to Trump hard. In a matter of days, Hillary was projected to have Arizona at 58% to Donald having more than 70% chance to carry the state.

BUT... the latest State poll was Sep. 21-26 from Google Consumer Surveys (538 scored as "B") and Hillary is up 38% to Trump's 34% in a 4-way race, with Johnson with 11%. This is after a GCS survey (Sep. 7-13) had Donald up at 35% to Hillary's 34%, with Gary still getting 11%.

Before that, Ipsos' Sep. 2-15 poll had Donald up at 46% over Hillary's 39% in a 2-way race (no show of support for Gary).
posted by filthy light thief at 3:02 PM on September 29, 2016


> "Apologies if this was posted elsewhere. Scientific American Grades the Presidential Candidates on Science. tl;dr: There's only one passing grade. It's a D."

Clinton: 64
Trump: 7

That's a pretty damn stark difference.

(For those who care, Stein: 44 and Johnson: 30.)
posted by kyrademon at 3:02 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


Why does the unsubstantiated appearance of impropriety stick to Clinton so much more strongly than the evidence of impropriety sticks to Trump? Have people really fallen into a bottomless pit of truthiness?

For the same reason a 3-year-old can pull down his pants at the mall and everyone says it's cute, but when I do it, suddenly it's a "security issue."
posted by PlusDistance at 3:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


Clinton: 64

Impressively high given how much modern American politics filters against this sort of thing.

(I wouldn't expect to see any viable Republican candidate crack double digits on this)
posted by Artw at 3:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Why does the unsubstantiated appearance of impropriety stick to Clinton so much more strongly than the evidence of impropriety sticks to Trump? Have people really fallen into a bottomless pit of truthiness?

For the same reason a 3-year-old can pull down his pants at the mall and everyone says it's cute, but when I do it, suddenly it's a "security issue."


Neither of those things is unsubstantiated.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:10 PM on September 29, 2016


Clinton: 64
Trump: 7

That's a pretty damn stark difference.


The Trump answers are just astounding -- it honestly seems like it would have been better for his team to ignore the survey all together than to submit answers that get commentary like this (regarding Ocean Health):
Trump does not mention the ocean, fish, fisheries, coral reefs or coastlines in his answer. Grade: 0/5
posted by sparklemotion at 3:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


I roll to disbelieve kyrademon because frankly there is no way that Johnson and Stein are that good on science.

Stein is big on WOOOO!

and Johnson is a libertarian...
posted by vuron at 3:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


So the Republican governor of the time, Pete Wilson, decided that pursuing nativist policies would re-energize the GOP electorate. And they did, for a bit.

this involved some real tough talk against an imaginary straw Mexican and if I'm remembering this correctly Gov Wilson's name for him was

wait for it

"Pepe"
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


The article features the correction, “The star of Apprentass 4 was Angel Dark, not Alicia Machado.” While the correction is nonspecific, it appears that the Caller based the entire premise of their claim that Machado is a “porn star” on the incorrect belief that she was featured in that film. According to The Daily Beast, which reported on conservatives’ smear effort against Machado, “there does not appear to be any evidence suggesting the existence of professionally made pornography starring Machado.”

While the article no longer cites an example of her appearing in an adult film, it still baselessly claims that Machado made an “appearance in porn” and has a “background in pornography.”


The Machado fat-shaming scandal continues to go splendidly for Hillary. Not only is this one of those issues that cuts across normal political alignments to strike a literal majority of the public in a gut-punch way, but now amateurish Republicans are rolling out a slow counter-punch which will simply keep it dominating the news cycle for another day.

Lurid controversies about Machado's past are actually good for the Clinton campaign; they rivet everyone's attention. But bullshit lurid controversies are even better, with all of the outrage, none of the confusion, and more outrage piled on top. And it shows that Trump's supporters not only watch a lot of porn, but don't remember the details that well.
posted by msalt at 3:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


The great part about being a Libertarian is that you can simultaneously believe that a) man-made climate change is an existential threat to humanity and b) nothing should be done about that because it's the good and natural result of the free market deciding to extinguish the human race.
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [31 favorites]


Talk about holding women to excessively high standards.

I feel that your retort is problematic, because the rest of what I said there should have made it clear that what Lewinsky did for her talk, and in parallel the alleged behavior of Hillary are both understandable and empathizable. Maybe it would be relevant background if you knew that as a gay person, I cried while listening to Lewinsky's account, because it resonated deeply for me. Anyways, the connection I drew in response to dnash's comment was that their mom's concern (the concern about Hillary and "bimbos") is not necessarily a reason to not vote for Hillary. Your comment seems like a quick reaction based on thinking I said the opposite or expressed something very simplistic. That's not a dynamic that works for me here.
posted by polymodus at 3:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


In the early 1990s Trump's bankers put him on an allowance of $450,000 a month.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:16 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


And Hillary has a history of making these problems disappear by making the women out to be lying bimbos.

Citations really, really needed.

This is one of the things that makes me absolutely crazy. The only "evidence" I've ever seen for this is Juanita Brodderick's claim that Hillary shook her and said thank you, and yet it gets repeated all the time as if we all know what this refers to.

What the hell does it refer to? Because if no one can show me the receipts, I'm gonna have to go with "you've all swallowed more misogynist bullshit" as the actual explanation.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [94 favorites]


I'd appreciate seeing Bill Clinton admit that his relationships with women were inappropriate, and Hillary Clinton admit that her public and private responses to the same were also.

I'm no fan of Hillary Clinton, but how she deals with her private life is her own business and no one else's. Not mine, not yours. No one. Her private life has zero relevance to her pursuit of the presidency. Bill Clinton isn't running for office, either, and his private behavior has no bearing on what Hillary's responsibilities are as a potential future president. The constant focus on who these people sleep with is pretty much a threat to the United States, given how serious the job is of running the country and how useless and dangerous these time-wasting distractions have become.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:19 PM on September 29, 2016 [77 favorites]


Yeah, this complaint seems unreasonable, TBH.
posted by Artw at 3:21 PM on September 29, 2016


And she has remained a mostly private person in the intervening years.

While it might be thrilling and moving to hear Lewinsky endorse Clinton, I can't think of anyone in world I'd blame less for wanting to left alone.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


The right wing allegations about Hillary Clinton's behavior towards Bill's accusers go beyond the Brodderick claim. But as far as I can tell they are all just that; unsubstantiated allegations from anonymous-type sources. Stuff like Hillary Clinton leading White House war-room meetings talking about how to discredit accusers. But unsourced and without proof.
posted by Justinian at 3:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump just denied his compny paid 4 Cuba trip during embargo + discussed falsely linking 2 charity. Proof time. Names not in story removed.

To be fair, that's just the invoice, which in matters TrumpOrg provides no guarantee that it was paid.

That may be the response from Barad-Trump. "We never paid them!"
posted by holgate at 3:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


Hillary Clinton initially believing her husband that these stories were fabricated and defending him, unforgivable.

Making public mocking statements about Ms Universe putting on a few pounds and inviting press to workout sessions rather than having private meetings and being supportive, perfectly reasonable.
posted by phearlez at 3:28 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


I would like to see some articles about those accusations - not saying this is a flippant way, I really do want to see them if anyone can link to some. When I try to google it, I can't tell the credible sources from the totally made-up nonsense ones.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:30 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


To be fair, that's just the invoice, which in matters TrumpOrg provides no guarantee that it was paid.

That may be the response from Barad-Trump. "We never paid them!"


"I did business in Cuba, but stiffed them too!" doesn't seem like the best defense in a couple different ways.
posted by chris24 at 3:30 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


So Trump was asked by NECN in NH who is a world leader he respects. "Well I think Merkel is a really great world leader," Trump said.

This election would be rejected by a Hollywood studio exec for being too fucking stupid of a script to be believable.
posted by Talez at 3:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [36 favorites]


I posted this is a much earlier thread (July) but I feel that it bears repeating:

If the possibility of safely blue states turning red doesn't scare you, how about this? Vote to deliver Trump a humiliating defeat. Vote to tell the nation (and the world) that the American electorate, for all its foibles, will ultimately punish racist and sexist rhetoric and actions. Think about what a huge margin of victory, even in New York, would tell the people who are most likely to be affected by Trump's proposed policies: that you've got their back. Can you imagine the rush of joy you will feel about the fundamental goodness of the American people if Trump's policies are repudiated firmly in November, with a crushing defeat?
posted by peacheater at 3:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [36 favorites]


Clinton was also asked who her fave world leader is today; her response is pretty awesome.
posted by melissasaurus at 3:35 PM on September 29, 2016 [29 favorites]


There was a WaPo article that cites some of the namecalling, but it's paywalled. I'll see if I can find a better source.
posted by corb at 3:37 PM on September 29, 2016


So Trump was asked by NECN in NH who is a world leader he respects. "Well I think Merkel is a really great world leader," Trump said.

"Well I saw that Chris Wallace clip on Twitter and I remember that's what the Weld guy answered and he sounded like less of a dope so I'll go with that. Merkel. He's a good dude."

24 hours later: "I never said Angela Merkel is a dude."

Within the same interview: "[Random unnecessary offensive comment about her appearance.]"
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:38 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]




Clinton was also asked who her fave world leader is today; her response is pretty awesome.

I'm really enjoying seeing Clinton enjoy herself on the campaign trail the last few days. She's loved into "person I'd like to have a beer with" territory, even though I don't drink and suspect we'd just spend the whole time gushing about our favorite bits from Hamilton.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


Trump Slams First Presidential Debate: "What a Rigged Deal"

what a baby
posted by defenestration at 3:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


WaPo paywall is easily defeated by opening the link in an incognito window in chrome, for those who don't know!
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm no fan of Hillary Clinton, but how she deals with her private life is her own business and no one else's. Not mine, not yours. No one. Her private life has zero relevance to her pursuit of the presidency. Bill Clinton isn't running for office, either, and his private behavior has no bearing on what Hillary's responsibilities are as a potential future president.

In fact, one of the few times I'd say who a public official sleeps with does matter is if they're trying to make a lot of political hay out of an opponent's sex life. It certainly wouldn't do to open your side to charges of hypocrisy and purely partisan motivation, now would it?

Oh, wait.
posted by Gelatin at 3:42 PM on September 29, 2016


Trump Slams First Presidential Debate: "What a Rigged Deal"

Amending an earlier comment I made...

"I didn't lose I won and besides my microphone wasn't working and besides the moderator was biased and besides she only won because she cheated and look at these online polls that say I won and also the whole thing was rigged."
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:43 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


I kinda want Clinton to turn to the moderator of the next debate and say "Be careful, if Trump doesn't do well, he may accusing you of rigging this whole thing."

I know it probably wouldn't be a good idea, but I still kinda want it to happen.
posted by defenestration at 3:44 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


WaPo paywall is easily defeated by opening the link in an incognito window in chrome, for those who don't know!

Also for those who don't know, the WaPo paywall is easily defeated with 99 cents then cancelling after the election. Farenthold's worth 99c to me on his own.
posted by Francis at 3:45 PM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


Maybe this was already posted but I didn't see it. 2 national post-debate polls:

"NBC News/SurveyMonkey found 52 percent of respondents thought Clinton won to Donald Trump’s 21 percent. Another from Reuters/Ipsos found that 56 percent of respondents thought Clinton won to Trump’s 26 percent.
posted by msalt at 3:47 PM on September 29, 2016


Trump Slams First Presidential Debate: "What a Rigged Deal" and NAFTA is "Worst trade deal ever"

Worst trade deal ever? I got the Treaty of Nanking (concession of Treaty Ports to the UK for the opium trade) looking a little miffed at being outshone by piddly NAFTA.
posted by tclark at 3:47 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump Slams First Presidential Debate: "What a Rigged Deal"

I know he didn't know what a dog was before, but I now suspect he has no earthly idea what a "deal" is either. A Presidential debate is not the same as reaching an agreement on a ground lease for a hotel. Only one of those things can reasonably be categorized as a "deal."
posted by zachlipton at 3:47 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


May be already mentioned, but PBS put Frontline's The Choice 2016 on YouTube. I walked away with a much more positive view of Hillary.
posted by Monochrome at 3:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [18 favorites]


Credit where it's due:

Chuck to Trump surrogate re: online polls: "Jason, you've been doing this a while, you know those are bogus!"

(I'm not forgiving Todd for being such a waste this election, but I did like this moment.)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


I would like to see some articles about those accusations - not saying this is a flippant way, I really do want to see them if anyone can link to some.

Here's an article from the NYT citing Carl Bernstein writing that she "undertook an 'aggressive, explicit direction of the campaign to discredit'" Gennifer Flowers, and George Stephanopoulos saying Hillary came to him with “We have to destroy her story,” about a different woman.

The other general problem here is that one of "Bill's women" wasn't just an affair that's nobody else's business, it's a credible rape allegation.
posted by lalex at 3:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


TPM: Top Trump Aide Doesn't Deny Report Trump Company Spent Money In Cuba (VIDEO)

"In an appearance on "The View" Thursday morning, Donald Trump's campaign manager insisted that a report alleging one of his companies broke the Cuban trade embargo in 1998 does not mean that the candidate had been “treasonous.”

But she did say “they paid money, as I understand from the story, they paid money in 1998," referring to the story published by Newsweek hours earlier.

“The question is: ‘Did he spend money?’ He’s very critical of Cuba, he’s very critical of Castro, and he’s been critical,” Kellyanne Conway said. “He gave a speech the very next year to the Cuban-American National foundation of Miami critical of those who want to do business with Castro, and he’s talked about the Cuban Embargo even on this [campaign] trail.”

“But again, we’re talking about, ‘Did his hotel invest money in 1998 in Cuba?’ No,” she continued."

So basically, 'hey, he broke the law a little trying to determine if he wanted to break it a lot. But he didn't, so all cool, right?'
posted by chris24 at 3:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump official says he doesn’t talk about Bill Clinton’s affairs, changes his mind 10 seconds later:
“... don’t think you’ve ever heard me talk about Bill Clinton’s peccadilloes from the 1990s. I don’t think they’re relevant right now.”

Exactly 10 seconds later, things changed.

“What I do think is relevant — and this is key — is that wherever the Clinton ship has sailed, it leaves behind it a wake of scandal. Whether it’s Bill Clinton and some of his indiscretions in the 1990s,” Cortes said, at which point Snow cut him off to interject, “Oh, but you just brought it up just then!”
"I said his peccadilloes weren't relevant. I'm talking about his indiscretions." [fake]
posted by kirkaracha at 3:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Hey, peccadilloes is one of my favorite words because of this scene. Don't ruin it, Trump.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:00 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I kinda want Clinton to turn to the moderator of the next debate and say "Be careful, if Trump doesn't do well, he may accusing you of rigging this whole thing."

I want:

1) Clinton to open the next debate with "Donald, would you like to trade mics before we start?"

2) To hear Kaine say, some point in the VP debate, "Frankly, as a friend of mine says, that's malarky!"

3) Steven Tyler to make an anti-Trump video called "Dude (Acts Like A Baby)."
posted by octobersurprise at 4:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [35 favorites]


50/50 odds Trump thinks (Bill) Clinton's 90s peccadilloes are investments in pygmy armadillo ranch, like chinchillas, that didn't work out.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 4:03 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


The other general problem here is that one of "Bill's women" wasn't just an affair that's nobody else's business, it's a credible rape allegation.

Yeah, I'm not sure that's a good place for them to be going either.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 4:03 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Will These Anti-Trump Ads Be the Killer Spots of the 2016 Campaign?

"The Clinton campaign has released sharp ads attacking Donald Trump for his erratic temperament, his long history of misogynistic remarks, and his lack of foreign policy experience. But one of the most eviscerating ad efforts of the fall (so far) has come from a progressive outfit in Ohio, which has launched a series of spots slamming the GOP presidential nominee for having repeatedly stiffed contractors."

You can see the three ads in the article.
posted by chris24 at 4:04 PM on September 29, 2016 [19 favorites]


Buttercup: And to think, all that time it was your microphone that was functional.

(Wo)Man in Black: They were both functional. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to saying stupid things into a microphone.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 4:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [75 favorites]


filthy light thief: WTF Arizona - you were with us for a while back in August, and then y'all went back to Trump hard.

I wonder whether the Arizona Republic's endorsement will have any effects on polling? I know they've received a lot of death threats, but that doesn't mean that the needle hasn't moved in the other direction as well, just with less immediately visible (and horrible) consequences.

Also, I would swoon if Kaine used the word "malarkey." Putting that on my VP debate bingo card!
posted by Superplin at 4:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton was also asked who her fave world leader is today; her response is pretty awesome.

I am so torn. On the one hand, professional women should never be told to smile more because no one tells professional men to smile more. It's also reasonably clear that she's gotten some facial expression coaching because the patriarchy says she isn't "likable" enough, and she is the kind of lady who will learn to smile pretty if that's what it takes because she is the kind of lady who will do what it takes.

But dammit. She has a great smile and i'ts great to see it. It seriously is one of the only things that made Monday's debate watchable for me, and I could watch the shimmy gif every hour of every day.
posted by sparklemotion at 4:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [22 favorites]


After seeing the Trump campaign hang its hat on those brigaded online "polls" after the first debate I wonder if the Clinton campaign is going to organize a counter-brigade for the next couple of debates? Theoretically is it legal to use bots to vote?
posted by Justinian at 4:11 PM on September 29, 2016


Trek Against Trump
Star Trek has always offered a positive vision of the future, a vision of hope and optimism, and most importantly, a vision of inclusion, where people of all races are accorded equal respect and dignity, where individual beliefs and lifestyles are respected so long as they pose no threat to others. We cannot turn our backs on what is happening in the upcoming election. Never has there been a presidential candidate who stands in such complete opposition to the ideals of the Star Trek universe as Donald Trump....

We have heard people say they will vote Green or Libertarian or not at all because the two major candidates are equally flawed. That is both illogical and inaccurate...."
Signed by (so far) 98 actors, writers, directors, etc., associated with every incarnation of Star Trek (also including family members of deceased Trek luminaries).
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [73 favorites]


WaPo paywall is easily defeated by opening the link in an incognito window in chrome, for those who don't know!

In mobile Safari, click the double rectangles top right, then click Private (don't worry if it looks like the other tabs disappeared.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


David Fahrenthold ‏@Fahrenthold
Got a little more news about @realDonaldTrump's Foundation, coming later tonight....
SQUEEEEEE!
posted by Talez at 4:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


Oh and when I get board of the shimmy gif. There is the Shimmy Song. Which might just make this crapsack of an election season worthwhile.
posted by sparklemotion at 4:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


After seeing the Trump campaign hang its hat on those brigaded online "polls" after the first debate I wonder if the Clinton campaign is going to organize a counter-brigade for the next couple of debates? Theoretically is it legal to use bots to vote?

They won't for the second. Donald Trump is just the sort of twit who believes brigaded polls when they tell him what he wants to know. And if he thinks he won he won't change his gameplan.
posted by Francis at 4:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


If Donald is such a master negotiator and Hillary is so lousy why was he outplayed in negotiating the terms of a Presidential debate with Hillary?
posted by humanfont at 4:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Theoretically is it legal to use bots to vote?

There's an argument to be made that using any site in a manner not condoned is actually illegal, but in practice nobody cares about online polls.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:17 PM on September 29, 2016


Yeah I know a lot of stuff gets posted in these threads but the link that scaryblackdeath posted above, with Chuck Todd challenging a Trump campaign guy on the online polls, is really worth watching. Todd starts straight up laughing at about 1:30.
posted by lalex at 4:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh hey USA Today: "The Editorial Board has never taken sides in the presidential race. We're doing it now."

[spoiler alert: Trump is unfit for the presidency]
posted by lalex at 4:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [48 favorites]


I am late to this, but: Not voting because you believe your vote 'makes no difference' makes you a damn PARASITE (and, by the way, pretty despicable). Sometimes one is judged by the effects of one's actions; sometimes by the actions themselves. So--effects, small. actions--parasite.

I live in a Clinton-safe state in a 3/4 Republican town. I will vote for Clinton, and Governor Cody (my state senator). They will both win with or without me. I will not vote for any local Democrats because none are running because, unlike PARASITES, plenty of my Republican neighbors will come out vote for Republicans (even sure-loser-here Trump), so local Dems do not bother with the town elections.

By the way, here in the suburbs, this election has been notable for the absence of lawn signs. I have decided to put up no lawn sign until someone on my (pretty long) street puts up a Trump/Pence. But so far, I have not seen a single lawn sign in my town (and only one Trump/Pence in a neighboring town). Is this what is happening generally?
posted by hexatron at 4:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]




After seeing the Trump campaign hang its hat on those brigaded online "polls" after the first debate I wonder if the Clinton campaign is going to organize a counter-brigade for the next couple of debates?

No, because the Clinton campaign knows it wouldn't help. Any online poll showing Clinton as winning the debate will be discredited by the Trump campaign as brigaded by Clinton supporters, while any online poll showing Trump winning will be touted as an accurate assessment of the mood of the electorate.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


After seeing the Trump campaign hang its hat on those brigaded online "polls" after the first debate I wonder if the Clinton campaign is going to organize a counter-brigade for the next couple of debates?

"Both sides!"
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:29 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


When you clean someone's clock so obviously you don't need to traffic in false support.
posted by Talez at 4:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]




Chuck Todd is kind of like the weather in Texas:
You might be happy with it now, but wait five minutes.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


BuzzFeed: Newt Gingrich: Trump Is “A Gentleman” For Not Mentioning Bill Clinton’s Infidelity
“He thought about it, and I’m sure he said to himself, ‘a president of the United States shouldn’t attack somebody personally when their daughter is sitting in the audience,’” Gingrich said. “And he bit his tongue, and he was a gentleman, and I thought in many ways that was the most important moment of the whole evening. He proved that he had the discipline to remain as a decent guy even when she was disgusting.”

Gingrich added that he thought Clinton looked “mean and miserable,” while Trump shined in the exchange.

“And I think it was probably a great disappointment to her staff, that this taunt that they were sure was gonna set him off, so that they would end the debate with him doing something foolish. Instead he came off looking like a gentleman and she came off looking pretty mean and miserable.”
So Trump gets gets everyone to talk about it but also gets credit for not talking about it. OK makes sense in a world where Trump looked like a gentleman and Clinton looked mean and miserable-- that is to say OPPOSITE WORLD.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


The Time a Trump Aide Sued a Trump Adviser Over an Anti-Hillary Group Called...

Citizens Unanimous: No Trump
posted by 0xFCAF at 4:34 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Oh hey USA Today: "The Editorial Board has never taken sides in the presidential race. We're doing it now."

Damn! If I were traveling, I'd be choking on my Holiday Inn continental breakfast right about now.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:35 PM on September 29, 2016 [61 favorites]


What's fascinating about that USA Today editorial is that it's moral isn't "vote Clinton" but "don't vote Trump - vote anyone else, just don't vote Trump."
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:36 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Newt Gingrich: Trump Is 'A Gentleman' for Not Mentioning Bill Clinton’s Infidelity

"Gentleman" Donald Trump cheated on his first wife with his second wife, then cheated on his second wife with his third wife.

Newt Gingrich cheated on his first wife with his second wife, then cheated on his second wife with his third wife.

Rudy Giuliani cheated on his first wife with his second wife, then cheated on his second wife with his third wife.

Is "Gentleman" Don going to mention that Clinton's an amateur compared to them?
posted by kirkaracha at 4:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [28 favorites]


What's fascinating about that USA Today editorial is that it's moral isn't "vote Clinton" but "don't vote Trump - vote anyone else, just don't vote Trump."

From the article: "Nor does this editorial represent unqualified support for Hillary Clinton, who has her own flaws (though hers are far less likely to threaten national security or lead to a constitutional crisis). The Editorial Board does not have a consensus for a Clinton endorsement." (emphasis mine)

Which reads to me like there was one, 12 Angry Men style holdout in the room.
posted by saturday_morning at 4:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [19 favorites]


@IsaacDovere: Gingrich joins Giuliani & Trump in bringing up Bill Clinton's affairs. The three have 9 marriages between them:

And lest we forget Gingrich was also talking about Miss Universe's weight. Gingrich-- ya know the portly guy who divorced his wife when she had cancer so he could marry his mistress?

And speaking of mistresses...
I know that I should probably let this go but Hillary is the wronged party here-- not the women who chose to have sex with her husband. I don't care how Hillary reacted, these women chose to have sex with Bill. They can't turn around and pretend that Hillary was the bad person in that story.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [19 favorites]


Gingrich added that he thought Clinton looked “mean and miserable,”

Miserable? Pull the other one. She was enjoying herself.
posted by Gelatin at 4:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


Kurt Eichenwald clearly has a dossier of Trump material going back decades that he's decided to polish into stories.

Speculation here: there's an even bigger story he's going to release in October, and the names and ventures mentioned in these two pieces -- foreign entanglements past and present -- are little jabs at Trump imply what might be round the corner. Post-bankruptcy TrumpOrg is one that relies upon partners and NDAs and not all of them are leakproof, especially if they've been stiffed somewhere along the line.

Which reads to me like there was one, 12 Angry Men style holdout in the room.

Except they weren't angry, just excessively chilled out and hoarding all the snacks.
posted by holgate at 4:45 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Welp...

Millennials trust Trump more than Clinton on only one issue: Regulating Wall Street

"Clinton trails Trump on just one measure: Who do voters younger than 35 trust more to handle "government regulation of Wall Street and banks?" When that question is put to them, 44 percent of young voters trust Clinton; 51 percent trust Trump.

When you look at the other policy preferences of young voters, the answer makes no sense. On the issues where Clinton has run furthest to the left, like climate change, young voters support her by up to 60 points. And Donald Trump's position on regulating Wall Street is, to say the least, laissez-faire. He has pledged to dismantle the post-recession Dodd-Frank financial regulation; doing so would also take out the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Moreover, he has gone along with a widely shared Republican proposal for a moratorium on any regulations until the economy hit a certain (high) growth rate.

Clinton favors none of this."
posted by chris24 at 4:46 PM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


Newt Gingrich: Trump Is “A Gentleman” For Not Mentioning Bill Clinton’s Infidelity

This is why Gingrich is so infuriating. He's not stupid, he's purposely and cunningly doing evil. I never even believe that he believes the things he says. Trump is just stupid.
posted by bongo_x at 4:46 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Unlike Trump, Bill Clinton's mistress was made right here in America by Americans.
posted by humanfont at 4:47 PM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


Not that this will change the mind of any Trump supporters, who seem to have abandoned basic logic, but: part of the appeal of Trump is supposedly that he says what he thinks, and doesn't kowtow to excessive "political correctness."

His alleged reason for not bringing up Bill's infidelities during the first debate? He didn't want to offend one 36-year-old woman.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


This is why Gingrich is so infuriating. He's not stupid

If he's not stupid, why's he tying himself to a lead balloon?
posted by jackbishop at 4:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


It's pretty clear that Trump has no real desire to win. He didn't bother to prep for the debate, he fired his entire policy staff, he still won't spend any of his own fortune. A near miss is better for his ego than winning and having to deal with the consequences. Of course, that doesn't mean he won't win -- there's plenty of time for last minute game changers.
posted by miyabo at 4:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


USA Today needs to studiously avoid offending people. More than half their circulation is in hotels. If enough people at the Midwestern-Regional Spark Plug Sales Convention start throwing their copies at the hotel manager ranting about how they want a "fair and balanced" newspaper, the hotel might just conclude that newspapers are more trouble than they're worth. They're already going to get enough flack for a "anybody but Trump" endorsement.
posted by zachlipton at 4:50 PM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


Only took 72 hours to read through the 2 posts. Finally got up to now.
This had been an awesome pair of threads.
Thank you all so much for watching for me.

Now, has anything else been on MeFi in the last 3 days?
posted by MtDewd at 4:50 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trek Against Trump

I understand the lack of Shatner, because he sucks, but where the hell is Patrick Stewart?
posted by palindromic at 4:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


If he's not stupid, why's he tying himself to a lead balloon?

I'm not sure that's quite the right metaphor. I'd go with this instead.
posted by The World Famous at 4:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I understand the lack of Shatner, because he sucks, but where the hell is Patrick Stewart?

When it comes to U.S. politics, he's just not . . .


engaged.
posted by The World Famous at 4:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


I know that I should probably let this go but Hillary is the wronged party here-- not the women who chose to have sex with her husband. I don't care how Hillary reacted, these women chose to have sex with Bill. They can't turn around and pretend that Hillary was the bad person in that story.

I've said this before here, but one's perspective on this probably depends on whether you see Monica Lewinsky as "the other woman who fucked Hillary's husband" or "a very young woman who was the victim of a sexual predator using a vast power and maturity imbalance to seduce her, and who subsequently became the target of a vicious smear campaign aimed at discrediting her."
posted by lalex at 4:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [28 favorites]


Actually I'm happy to drop this; I'm voting for Hillary so tbh I don't really like thinking about this stuff. Carry on, thread!
posted by lalex at 4:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I understand the lack of Shatner, because he sucks, but where the hell is Patrick Stewart?

My suspicion - not US citizens?
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 4:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Stewart is an Englishman so maybe he feels it's inappropriate to butt in. I don't think it should matter much but who knows.
posted by dis_integration at 4:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


And Shatner is Canadian but I doubt he feels it's inappropriate to butt in.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:59 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


And Marina Sirtis is a naturalized US citizen, I did not know that.
posted by peeedro at 5:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Now, has anything else been on MeFi in the last 3 days?

They've stopped posting anything else, right?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:02 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


In an interview tonight with NH media, Trump doubles/triples down that he's very proud that he forced the first black president to show his birth certificate. (full transcript of question and answer attached to tweet.)

@sopandeb: "!!! Trump tells @steinhauserNH1 that he is proud of his birtherism!: "I tried and I was able to do it so I’m very proud of that."
posted by chris24 at 5:04 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Stewart's feelings on the election.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


The deluge of all things not election comes on the 9th
posted by cmfletcher at 5:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think the whole millenial protest vote thing is a bit hand wringy, as they're not nearly as problematic as the older folk, but I do have incredibly sad visions of them in the future, decades after they understand the mathematics/mechanics of the US voting system. Their grandkids will ask them what it was like to vote for the first woman president and they will be filled with a profound regret. I say this as someone who voted for a third party in my youth, but thanks to the electoral college, didn't have to actually regret it.
posted by snofoam at 5:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


So it doesn't matter whom I vote for.

So I live in New York, whose presidential votes are about as sure and certain as they come. And this year, Chuck Schumer is going to beat Wendy Long like a red-headed stepchild, and Brian Higgins is going to beat the crap out of... whoever his opponent is, I don't remember. And Mike Ranzenhofer and Ray Walter are going to beat whoever the fuck the nobodies I vote for are. So my vote doesn't matter in that sense. ...but it'll still be fun to cast. Especially the one for president. Even when it will make not the slightest difference. You know why? Because fuck him. That's why.

So biscotti and I are going to walk down the street and we are going to vote So. Fucking. Hard. that the Harlem Road Community Center is going to want a cigarette when we are through.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [59 favorites]


2600 Magazine offers $10K for Trump's tax return payable in "dollars, bitcoin... or rubles"
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 5:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [37 favorites]


I have relatives in NY and CA that are voting for Trump - big "catholic" families on both sides, so there's a lot of them. If you need yet another reason to vote for Clinton in one of these blue states, do it to cancel out their votes.
posted by melissasaurus at 5:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


I will be voting for Hillary in spite of Kai Winn's endorsement.
posted by ckape at 5:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [31 favorites]


And Mike Ranzenhofer and Ray Walter are going to beat whoever the fuck the nobodies I vote for are. So my vote doesn't matter in that sense. ...

Downticket, downticket, downticket!
posted by eclectist at 5:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


One other thing on the "it doesn't matter whom I vote for" front. In California, we've got 17 statewide propositions on the ballot, plus whatever you've got in your local area. Some of them help fund schools, some lock in tax rates, some address criminal justice reform, one legalizes marijuana, and one repeals the death penalty (while another tries to make it easier for the state to kill people more quickly). This stuff matters a whole lot too, in some ways more than the Presidency, and showing up to vote on these measures is just as important.
posted by zachlipton at 5:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [37 favorites]


So I live in New York, whose presidential votes are about as sure and certain as they come.

New York is actually a reasonably satisfying state to vote in because we have electoral fusion, meaning that more than one party can nominate the same candidate. So you can vote for, say, Democrat Andrew Cuomo on the Working Families Party line. The effect is that third parties get a little more influence than they would normally have on major party candidates' platforms.
posted by lalex at 5:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


2600 Magazine offers $10K for Trump's tax return

Mentioned last thread, but the fact that Trump's "400 lb. Hacker" quip motivated them is amusing.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:17 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


Vote to stop this bullshit.

In the Era of Trump, Anti-Latino Hate Crimes Jumped 69% in L.A.
posted by chris24 at 5:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [36 favorites]


Their grandkids will ask them what it was like to vote for the first woman president and they will be filled with a profound regret.

I've said something like this before, but there are going to be a lot of lies and regrets about voting in this election. Don't be one of those people.
posted by bongo_x at 5:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


miyabo: It's pretty clear that Trump has no real desire to win. He didn't bother to prep for the debate, he fired his entire policy staff, he still won't spend any of his own fortune. A near miss is better for his ego than winning and having to deal with the consequences.

I disagree. I think not only does he want to win, he needs to win. He needs to win because he's a narcissist whose ego won't be able to accept that he was beaten, very publicly, and by a woman. This is why he's already begun rationalizing a potential loss-- my mic was sabotaged, the polls are rigged, the election was stolen, etc.

Also, he needs to win from a practical standpoint because all signs point to him being massively in debt-- likely owing hundreds of millions to Deutsche Bank. He did put in his own money (after much feet dragging, he officially forgave the millions he loaned the campaign) but Mark Cuban likely has it right- he's probably a fake billionaire. When they did his Comedy Central Roast, the joke writers get a list of everything that's off limits. He was fine with everything-- making fun of Melania, his family, and so on-- the only thing he red lined was jokes making it seem like he's not as rich as he claims. I made this point in the last thread, but when Sec. Clinton made note of him maybe being in debt to banks, he grimaced involuntarily, the same kind of grimace boxers make when a punch lands but they're trying to play it off. So from a financial standpoint he needs to win. His brand is in shambles and it's unlikely more buildings where they pay him for naming rights will be coming. That's why he's getting increasingly desperate.

As to wanting to do the job? God no. This is a man who's had everything handed to him on a silver platter all his life (a "small" million dollar loan!?) yet he still finds a way to whine that the system is rigged against him. Debate prep? Why would he bother? The people have been eating out of his hand at his rallies for months. And when he fails, he just has people around him tell him all the online polls loved him. So I don't think he want to do the job, but I do think he wants to win.
posted by bluecore at 5:20 PM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]




I've said something like this before, but there are going to be a lot of lies and regrets about voting in this election. Don't be one of those people.

On the plus side, a lot of folks will realize in time to vote for Hillary's second term, insha'Allah.
posted by snofoam at 5:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Downticket, downticket, downticket!

I hear ya, but I don't think there is anything downticket from the state assembly for me this year. Pretty sure Amherst town and Amherst Central Schools don't have anything up, anyway.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:26 PM on September 29, 2016


Can I just say that from an electoral-math perspective the New York fusion system is pretty great? It's a very small reform of the voting process, but it allows voters to identify the strength of whatever bloc agrees with them, without forcing voters to participate in the sham option of voting for unviable candidates.

Like, basically it makes visible the fact that the major parties are, internally, loose coalitions of competing interests, and also helps groups with common interests build organizations separate from the major party — which can give them meaningful leverage over the party's decisions. It's neat.

Most of the math-wonky analysis of voting systems — which I like a lot! I'm convinced that approval voting is the way to go, unless someone figures out how to really sell Condorcet's method to a math-averse culture — uh, anyway, most of the math-wonky analysis of voting systems fails to account for how elections are a repeated game, and that although fusion voting doesn't necessarily make a difference in one particular election, the presence of fusion voting can make a difference over time as organizations form to take advantage of it.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


The new Farenthold scoop is out:

Trump Foundation lacks the certification required for charities that solicit money

"Donald Trump’s charitable foundation — which has been sustained for years by donors outside the Trump family — has never obtained the certification that New York requires before charities can solicit money from the public, according to the state attorney general’s office.

Under the laws in New York, where the Donald J. Trump Foundation is based, any charity that solicits more than $25,000 per year from the public must obtain a special kind of registration beforehand. Charities as large as Trump’s must also submit to a rigorous annual audit that asks — among other things — whether the charity spent any money for the personal benefit of its officers."
posted by chris24 at 5:37 PM on September 29, 2016 [115 favorites]


We need fewer scoops and more "don't fucking vote for this person" editorials.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


(I've run out of Favs again. Hey, since he doesn't visit anymore, can I have Scott Adam's Favs to redistribute? I promise to use them wisely, Fav'ing comments he'd surely disapprove of.)
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 5:45 PM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


No, we need both. These ongoing "scoops" are revealing Trump as a fraud and a con man; a man who has no credibility and should not be listened to; that there is nothing here worth venerating. The ongoing undermining of his image, paired with his behaviour and the hate filled spew he puts forth, are what gives the fertile ground for "don't fucking vote for this person" editorials.
posted by nubs at 5:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [31 favorites]


And Shatner is Canadian but I doubt he feels it's inappropriate to butt in.

Shatner has dual citizenship, so that's not it.

Really, the surprise omission for me - thus far - isn't Shatner but Nichelle Nichols. There are plenty of other notable liberal Trek vets, since most Trek vets are liberal (Dwight Schultz is the major exception), but I would expect Nichols to sign on to this. I hope it was just a comms snafu and nothing's wrong.
posted by mightygodking at 5:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


So, back in the day when audio was primitive, there was a genre of comedy where people would pretend to be interviewers and ask questions that were "answered" by song fragments (the Beatles got this a lot) It's the kind of thing that doesn't hold up. At all.

Later (late seventies/eighties) it became a thing to send out records of a celebrity's half of an interview, with the assumption that the local talent would play straight man for the other half on air. That devolved quickly. But is still funny.

Fast forwarding to today, I give you Seth Meyers.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


That's some pretty juicy stuff about The Trump Foundation.
If New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman (D) finds that Trump’s foundation raised money in violation of the law, he could order the charity to stop raising money immediately. With a court’s permission, Schneiderman could also force Trump to return money his foundation has already raised.
That could be interesting. I wonder if the court could force him to pay back money that has already been spent? According to Farenthold he received more than $25,000 a year for the last 10 years. In some cases he has received millions. It would be justice if he had to give back all the money donated to him because then it would mean that he ended up paying for all that stuff with his own money.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


Trump Ally: Actually, Hillary Clinton Body-Shamed Girls In Anti-Trump Ad:
"The worst of all I find is those little girls in Mrs. Clinton's television ad, the nameless little girls standing in the mirror looking extremely uncomfortable, distressed about their own body types," McCaughey said. "Here's why that's distressing. Because I've sat at the bedside of a child nearing death from anorexia and there are families all over this country who have gone through this for years."
posted by kirkaracha at 5:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Farenthold is a golden god!
posted by sallybrown at 5:56 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


WaPo: Trump stirs old Clinton sex scandals, to the dismay of some allies
Donald Trump and his allies are dredging up the past marital infidelities of Hillary Clinton’s husband — a move of questionable benefit that is bewildering even some of his staunchest supporters.

The Republican nominee and his surrogates, under pressure to boost his standing with female voters and respond to Clinton’s accusations that he is a misogynist, are turning to an attack that has been tried repeatedly by the Clintons’ foes.[...]

Trump ally Newt Gingrich, who as House speaker led the charge to impeach Bill Clinton on perjury and obstruction charges, expressed dismay over the Trump campaign’s effort to revive the controversy.

“It’s totally the wrong direction to go,” Gingrich said. “He should not let them bait him into a swamp where they can revel in the mud.”
Look at Gingrich taking the high road! He is so noble, such a gentleman.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:59 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


why hasnt beyonce endorsed anyone, this is so stressful
posted by poffin boffin at 6:00 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]




What I personally kind of hate about them is not the outright lies but tactical attacks where they know rebuttal is both possible and trivial but 1. is too long for the fast paced interview (or debate) format and 2. involves too many points to connect for many people and 3. even if attempted would be enough of a distraction and deflection from the current question. This was especially noticeable in the debate and in the Kelly Anne on "The View". It's more cynical than straight lies.

I think the campaign needs an Elevator Defence for each of them, like an elevator pitch, but a defence from a drive-by attack, like, a 5 word version, a 10 word version, a 15 word version, and have them ready. Perhaps not always possible, but, in this campaign, very needed.
posted by rainy at 6:03 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Really, the surprise omission for me - thus far - isn't Shatner but Nichelle Nichols.

It appears it's been up for less than two days, and it's not clear how far in advance of going public they started contacting people, so it's entirely possible she (and any other prominent Trek actors who haven't signed on) simply hasn't seen it/responded yet. I wouldn't read too much into the absence of any notables from that list, if they haven't otherwise made a public statement on the election.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


What I personally kind of hate about them

Who is "them?"
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:05 PM on September 29, 2016


Kelly Anne and Trump.
posted by rainy at 6:07 PM on September 29, 2016


Trump Ally: Actually, Hillary Clinton Body-Shamed Girls In Anti-Trump Ad

Wow the rest of that interview is just as bad.
"No. And I think it's amazing that Mrs. Clinton —look, she had to go back 20 years to find something that he is alleged to have said. Alleged in public—" McCaughey said.

"He's on tape saying—" Harlow interrupted.

"I saw the tape," McCaughey interjected.

"He said on Fox News this week 'She gained a massive amount of weight,'" Harlow pointed out.

"That's right, she did and she was a beauty queen under contract with him," McCaughey said.

"And Alicia Machado said it drove her to be anorexic and bulimic. Do you think he has no culpability or responsibility?" Harlow asked.

"I don't," McCaughey said. "I think Hollywood and most of the literature, by the way, parents all across the country who like me have sought out the advice of doctors and read hundreds of articles about anorexia and bulimia have found Hollywood, the people who support Mrs. Clinton, are far more to blame."
"He didn't say that thing 20 years ago.Ok he did say it but she did get fat. Besides. Hillary is to blame."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Apprentass 4? Are we being trolled by reality?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Nah, Newt has just realized that you shouldn't throw this mud when you are already literally caked in it yourself. If Trump goes after Bill, Hillary gets to point out that Trump and Rudy and Newt and Roger all are unrepentant adulterers themselves, and that she and her husband have been able to work through it because of the importance of marriage and thecommitent they have.

It's such a fucking obvious trap, I can't believe the clown car is steering into it.
posted by nubs at 6:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


I'm going to go against the conventional wisdom and say that Trump won't bring up Bill's infidelities in the future debates. They are surely aware Clinton has some supremely confident answer prepared for that line of attack, and don't want to give her the opportunity to deliver it. But by doing this "mentioning that we're not mentioning it" thing outside of the debates, it keeps it in the public's mind while not really giving Clinton a good opening to respond.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha oh wait i forgot for a moment this is trump we're talking about i was thinking of a competently run campaign and a candidate who is capable of self-control
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


“Donald pulled me aside at his wedding,” Stern said in comments that had not resurfaced until now. “He said, you know I am getting remarried, but Howard, vagina is expensive. I will never forget those words. The guy is right. Those were the exact words!”
posted by kirkaracha at 6:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]






Nah, Newt has just realized that you shouldn't throw this mud

Yeah I should have made it clearer that I was being sarcastic. He was already on record for saying Trump Is “A Gentleman” For Not Mentioning Bill Clinton’s Infidelity
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ah, sorry. I think 2016 has done permanent damage to my sarcasm, irony, and parody detectors.
posted by nubs at 6:16 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


And now for something a bit less juicy...

NYTimes: Ohio, Long a Bellwether, Is Fading on the Electoral Map
ATHENS, Ohio — After decades as one of America’s most reliable political bellwethers, an inevitable presidential battleground that closely mirrored the mood and makeup of the country, Ohio is suddenly fading in importance this year.

Hillary Clinton has not been to the state since Labor Day, and her aides said Thursday that she would not be back until next week, after a monthlong absence, effectively acknowledging how difficult they think it will be to defeat Donald J. Trump here. Ohio has not fallen into step with the demographic changes transforming the United States, growing older, whiter and less educated than the nation at large.

And the two parties have made strikingly different wagers about how to win the White House in this election: Mr. Trump, the Republican nominee, is relying on a demographic coalition that, while well tailored for Ohio even in the state’s Democratic strongholds, leaves him vulnerable in the more diverse parts of the country where Mrs. Clinton is spending most of her time.

It is a jarring change for political veterans here, who relish being at the center of the country’s presidential races: Because of newer battleground states, Mrs. Clinton can amass the 270 electoral votes required to win even if she loses Ohio
Can I just say (as an old white person) it's about time the "Heartland" got a little less attention. They are not the future of America, they are barely the present of America. I am sick and tired of stories about good Christian (white) folk and why they need to vote for Trump even thought they aren't racists (but they don't actually know any Black or Hispanic people.)
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [78 favorites]


How accurate is Fortune's 3.7B estimate? Like, are they often wrong by much?

He did put in his own money (after much feet dragging, he officially forgave the millions he loaned the campaign) but Mark Cuban likely has it right- he's probably a fake billionaire. When they did his Comedy Central Roast, the joke writers get a list of everything that's off limits. He was fine with everything-- making fun of Melania, his family, and so on-- the only thing he red lined was jokes making it seem like he's not as rich as he claims.


Certainly possible, but a plausible explanation is that all his self-worth hinges on the size of the fortune, so the wife can be changed, etc, but if the fortune itself is doubted, everything else crumbles away. Another thing is that a lot of his deals and assets rely on perception of his net worth - e.g. licensing deals, ability to stiff contractors, media projects. He's doing media appearances to increase fame in order to help this kind of sources of income, so to jeopardize them would make little sense. Right?
posted by rainy at 6:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's ironic and funny but I predict the story that his fortune fell $800m, even though it doesn't mean much (mostly seems to be about softening of NYC real estate), will likely hurt him among his hardcore supporters more than literally EVERYTHING ELSE COMBINED. [EDIT: no seriously I thought about this a bit more and this would just be soooooooooo funny. Can you see a 5 point drop just on this one story?]
posted by rainy at 6:34 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wha Wha Sad Trombone

Congress suddenly has buyer's remorse for overriding Obama's veto
Just one day after these lawmakers led the first override of a veto during Obama's presidency they publicly called for making changes to the law. But even as they admitted they agreed with some of the White House's concerns, GOP leaders quickly blamed the President for "dropping the ball" for failing to engage with Congress on the legislation before it passed. [...]

Echoing concerns raised by the White House that the measure could open the US to similar lawsuits from people in other countries, House Speaker Paul Ryan said the law needs to be changed to ensure that US troops are protected.

"I'd like to think there is a way we can fix it so that our service members do not have legal problems overseas while still protecting the rights of the 9/11 victims," Ryan said at his weekly news conference.

The speaker voiced his own reservations about the bill earlier this year, saying people needed to look at the unintended consequences. But he explained that he ultimately decided to allow a House vote on it because "you want to make sure that the 9/11 victims and their families get their day in court."
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell also thought it might be a good idea to "fix" the law they just passed. Gee maybe a good time to "fix" the law was before they passed it, or failing that, when it was vetoed by the President. Then they could have re-written the law before it did any damage. But by golly they sure couldn't let Obama have the last word. So now it is his fault they did this thing. He should have....engaged...with them some more! Invited them into the Oval Office, offered them some coffee. Had some salted peanuts to nibble on, maybe. Told them all how smart they were and what a swell job they were doing.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:36 PM on September 29, 2016 [83 favorites]


Paul Ryan, literally: "I'd like to think there is a way we can fix is so that we can have a piece of cake while still protecting our rights to eat it at the same time. I'm cautiously optimistic that it's doable. Thank you for your time. Ryan out."
posted by rainy at 6:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Psssst, SecretLofG: I think you missed the veto thread up there.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Politico: Trump ignores advice and launches Bill Clinton attack
For three days since Clinton’s dominant debate performance, Trump and his team have been flailing wildly to change the meta-narrative coming out of the showdown. And they have yet to alight on anything to effectively spin the result, challenge the conventional wisdom that Clinton won or to change the subject to anything less damaging for the GOP nominee.

Inside Trump Tower, his inner circle of advisers has been in turmoil: while some have attempted to reach to the hard-headed candidate by suggesting to reporters that he must prepare more thoroughly for the second debate, others have spit-balled ideas aimed at changing the subject, including a last-minute trip to Israel that might replicate the more presidential optics and media saturation coverage they achieved with last month’s surprise summit with the Mexican president.
Yeah don't try and prepare for the next debate, just fly off to Israel-- that's a good plan. Think of all the great photo ops. More pictures of Trump in a prayer shawl.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:45 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Psssst, SecretLofG: I think you missed the veto thread up there.

Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for pointing that out. I barely have time to read this thread much less the whole rest of the site.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Can I just say (as an old white person) it's about time the "Heartland" got a little less attention.

On the one hand, I'm glad that Ohio is losing its Special Snowflake of the Nation status, though I accept that this means a sad decline in the Ohio Undecided Voter industry.

On the other hand, it means North Carolina's sorta kinda taking its place.

In the meantime, every dilapidated small town in Penntuckginio is getting a little economic bump from the dozens of reporters writing their own unique profiles of white working-class people.
posted by holgate at 6:52 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


I barely have time to read this thread much less the whole rest of the site.

The rest of the site? I pretty much gave up on the rest of internet (yes, including ssh and telnet).
posted by rainy at 7:04 PM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


This election is the worst. I had a feeling Palin was the worst, but if you make a list of what she said, and make a Trump list, and move windows side by side? Yeah.. And he's running for president, not VP! Did anyone else notice that?
posted by rainy at 7:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Fast forwarding to today, I give you Seth Meyers

OK, that takes me right back to childhood when I was a total sucker for those bits, and apparently I still am.
posted by bongo_x at 7:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


For those interested in downballot races, the Pride Fund to End Gun Violence released a strong ad against Republican John Mica (FL-07). His challenger, Stephanie Murphy, is a Vietnamese-American educator, businesswoman, and foreign relations specialist. I'll be paying a lot of attention to this race.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 7:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


WSJ: Trump Casinos Lost Jobs at Greater Rate than Atlantic City Rivals, Study Finds

"A study of Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump’s record in Atlantic City shows that Trump casinos lost jobs at a greater rate than their rivals, while Mr. Trump personally profited.

An analysis by Temple University law professor Jonathan Lipson ranked Trump-branded casinos “the worst” among their peers when it came to jobs over a 14-year period. Mr. Lipson, a bankruptcy scholar, found that Trump casinos shed some 7,400 jobs between 1997 and 2010. That works out, on average, to job losses per casino of 900—37% higher than at other Atlantic City gambling venues in the same period."
posted by chris24 at 7:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


I was watching the debate in Toronto, listening to the sniffing and a friend pointed out that there are a few similarities between Trump and our own Rob Ford: the privileged upbringing, the compulsive lying, the lack of inhibition, the weird pink skin tone, the same sorts of crowds supporting them.

America : you always have to upstage Canada?
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:17 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


It's all going to boil down to how much of America believes that being a lying, misogynistic, racist, bullying abuser who gets away with it 'makes you smart', isn't it?

He's campaigning for Mayor of the USA.
posted by Devonian at 7:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


hah - I think that was jinx, bonobothegreat...
posted by Devonian at 7:19 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I wish the debates were much longer - 1.5 hours? That's optimized for shouting, interruption and demagogues. Make it 16 hours, spread over 2 days, with sufficient breaks. But no, this would be real democracy, we can't have that. Same thing with the Daily Show with JS: 25min interview!? What in the name of god??!!! Can you imagine two hours of Stewart interviewing Rumsfeld? That's something I would watch.
posted by rainy at 7:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Politico: Trump ignores advice and launches Bill Clinton attack

I'm so pleased Trump is not learning from his mistakes because it means it's all gonna be ok. Like does he not realize we are numb from saturation and indifferent to Bill's infidelity, and that even if we weren't, that Trump is worse on this topic and most important of all, Bill Clinton isn't running for President and nobody gives a fuck. In my mind Bill is now the Old Guy Who Really Likes Balloons. The Old Guy Who Really Likes Balloons used to be quite the philanderer but now he's got those balloons to play with (maybe they remind him of something) while the real smarts in the family is getting ready to run the country.
posted by dis_integration at 7:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [39 favorites]


Oof, someone gave Trump his cell phone back.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I just want to say I really take solace in Metafilter right now. I had an obnoxious American encounter this evening. I'm doing course right now and since my course project is with this person I decided that it was best to just bite my tongue.

I wasn't at the course on Tuesday but she told me what happened. Thank goodness I wasn't there because I'm not sure I woulda kept my mouth shut. Apparently when she was making the presentation for our group and for some reason decided to ask how many people watched the debates. She said a few people put up their hand and she laughed. "I'm the only one here who can actually vote and I didn't even watch them. Why would you all bother? They're both so bad and it's embarassing. It's a joke and it doesn't matter what anyone here thinks. But I suppose if you want to waste your time with something that doesn't involve you then go for it."

Wha?

I honestly was quite stunned especially since she then went on to say that someone during the break a guy said something negative about Republicans and she explained to me how she lectured him. She told him if this was a real project she could take him right to HR and he'd be fired for harassment and hostile workplace.

So utterly obnoxious and I wanted to say so many things. I breathed, nodded, there was no point and would cause friction that I just didn't want to deal with for the rest of the course. I just thought to myself it's okay, I will be home in an hour. I'll be able to rant if I feel like it in a place in place with people that aren't obnoxious and actually get why people in other countries, especially Canada would want to pay attention. Oh and are also okay with people in other countries voicing their opinions about it.

So thanks all. I do appreciate it.
posted by Jalliah at 7:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [30 favorites]


Coworker was AGHAST that the focus was on Trump being mean to a woman. Said coworker is voting Stein, because coworker is a feminist who can't understand how anyone can vote for Clinton.

All the links the coworker sends me are from Breitbart and Drudge and Infowars.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


I wish the debates were much longer

The format of the big French presidential debate (there's only one for the second round) has been two hours, two moderators (the main news anchors from privately-owned TF1 and publicly-owned France 2), basically an hour of talking time each, sitting across a table. Par example, 2012.
posted by holgate at 7:33 PM on September 29, 2016


Oof, someone gave Trump his cell phone back.

Did Don Lemon say something about him today or is he blaming CNN's rating on a black guy?
posted by Jalliah at 7:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ugh, Jalliah, I'm so sorry you had to have that encounter.

In more positive news out of Arizona (!), our city leaders have demanded Trump pull his recent campaign ads because they make unlawful use of images of Phoenix police, and thus imply an endorsement.
posted by Superplin at 7:34 PM on September 29, 2016 [38 favorites]


WSJ: Hillary-Hatred Derangement Syndrome: The end of the election is now in sight. Some among the anti-Hillary brigades have decided, in deference to their exquisite sensibilities, to stay at home on Election Day, rather than vote for Mrs. Clinton. But most Americans will soon make their choice. It will be either Mr. Trump or Mrs. Clinton—experienced, forward-looking, indomitably determined and eminently sane. Her election alone is what stands between the American nation and the reign of the most unstable, proudly uninformed, psychologically unfit president ever to enter the White House.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:35 PM on September 29, 2016 [26 favorites]


My gut tells me that Trump will win. I know that his policies are horribly racist and homophobic and every kind of evil, and he'll probably render America a wasteland... but his personality and personality type are so compelling to people, and part of me really admires the ability to say anything to anyone and just not give a fuck. I don't think Hillary has that kind of charisma.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:35 PM on September 29, 2016


Oof, someone gave Trump his cell phone back.

Hahaha no kidding:

@realdonaldtrump: "Wow, did you see how badly @CNN (Clinton News Network) is doing in the ratings. With people like @donlemon, who could expect any more?"

Deadline: "CNN, meanwhile, clocked its most watched quarter in eight years, among both total viewers and adults 25-54 in Q3 2016, which officially ended Sunday. In primetime, it was CNN’s second-best quarter in eight years, in both metrics, behind only Q4 2008."
posted by lalex at 7:35 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Wait, is his name really @donlemon?
posted by bongo_x at 7:37 PM on September 29, 2016


The joke will be on anyone who voted for him if he does win. They'll have fallen for the con. He'll be all "What wall? What jobs? I never said that."
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:37 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


the ability to say anything to anyone and just not give a fuck. I don't think Hillary has that kind of charisma.

um, that's not charisma...
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:38 PM on September 29, 2016 [76 favorites]


I barely have time to read this thread much less the whole rest of the site.

I've almost forgotten that there is a Metafilter outside of the election threads.
posted by octothorpe at 7:38 PM on September 29, 2016 [38 favorites]


holgate: this looks and sounds SO much better. The time counters remind me of something else I thought during the debate: it would be such an easy thing to add to have rows of LEDs light up behind each candidate when it's their speaking time so that if someone is going over time or interrupted and talking over another, it would be VISUALLY obvious to everyone. This would literally cut down on 90% of interruptions.

Instead, a lot of people genuinely think moderator is playing favorites. With my idea, it would be visually obvious he is being fair.
posted by rainy at 7:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


For years I've been calling for more boldness in politics and personal life. Say what you want, yell what you want, and if other people disagree they can talk and yell back. Call out any bullshit and hypocricy when you see it, even if its in an inappropriate place. Unfortuanatly, the only people doing that are on the Right. Where are the angry, fiery, leftist agitators? I'll interrupt anyone making a dumb statment - Trump makes so many that Hillary should be constantly calling him an idiot.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:41 PM on September 29, 2016


People also critisize Trump's loose relationship with 'the truth', as if the 'truth' is a static thing instead of something created by social context and our own emotions. 'Ecstatic truth', as Herzog calls it.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:41 PM on September 29, 2016


Sure, because our society loves to hear a woman boldly telling a man he's wrong.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:43 PM on September 29, 2016 [50 favorites]


The joke will be on anyone who voted for him if he does win. They'll have fallen for the con. He'll be all "What wall? What jobs? I never said that."

Or he will spend his time ranting and hiring and firing everyone because he can't get his frickin wall built. The wall will become this obsession. I think he really does want a wall just because of what he thinks it will do but because it will be his monument. Kinda like Hitler was with the building of Germania.

I'm only kinda joking.
posted by Jalliah at 7:43 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm baffled any time someone mentions charisma and Donald Trump in the same sentence. He rambles like a drunk street preacher, makes bizarre faces that it blatantly looks like he's stood in front of the mirror for hours trying to perfect, makes bizarre hair and make-up choices, and if I came across him ranting on a corner I wouldn't stay to listen, I'd turn around and walk the other direction.

He's a con man, nakedly, unrepentantly, he might as well have a name tag on that says "Hello, I'm here to tell you lies and take your money!" Lots of people are apparently extremely gullible but that's different from charisma.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:45 PM on September 29, 2016 [59 favorites]


Trump's probably the best Republican, because at least he's corrupt and believes in money instead of religious convictions. And for most of human history, leaders were those who built monuments to themselves.

I still won't vote for him.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:45 PM on September 29, 2016


as if the 'truth' is a static thing

in this context, truth is highly correlated to fact. this is politics, not philosophy.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:45 PM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


But 'facts' all depend on interpretation and context, too. It's another thing the Left has lost - they're so focused on numbers, on being pedantic and correct. It's fine - 99% of the time they are correct. But people aren't moved by facts or numbers, they're moved by blatant emotional manipulation. We need some Democrats who are willing to read their Eduard Bernys, learn some oratory, and get their hands dirty. Obama could do that. Hell Springsteen and Kanye are probably the closest we have.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:47 PM on September 29, 2016


the ability to say anything to anyone and just not give a fuck. I don't think Hillary has that kind of charisma.


This is such a wonderful non-sequitor. Is it like, any expression can fit?

the ability to say anything to anyone and just not give a fuck. I don't think Hillary has that kind of Transluminiscent Aetiology.

posted by rainy at 7:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [35 favorites]


I was watching the debate in Toronto, listening to the sniffing and a friend pointed out that there are a few similarities between Trump and our own Rob Ford: the privileged upbringing, the compulsive lying, the lack of inhibition, the weird pink skin tone, the same sorts of crowds supporting them.

America : you always have to upstage Canada?


I will never forget my reaction, one crisp May morning in 2013, checking my phone and seeing the Toronto Star headline "ROB FORD IN CRACK VIDEO SCANDAL".

Instantaneously, completely confidently, I thought: Nope. No way. That cannot be true, because that cannot be the story behind that man's general weirdness and awfulness. It's just too stupid.

And we know how that ended up. One stupid thing after another, with stupid denials and stupid attacks, continuing with a stupid election campaign and ending with his stupid cancer that robbed our city of the closure it deserved.

So basically, what I'm saying is that Trump's Razor is older than Trump himself, and I suspect it will outlive him. I wish I believed that this was the last time we'd have to deal with a campaign where it applies, but I'm not optimistic.

Also, wouldn't the ultimate Trump's Razor turn out to be if Trump actually did turn out to be high as a kite all the time? After all the Ford/Trump comparisons, that would be truly, magnificently stupid.
posted by saturday_morning at 7:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


CiS: You... you're saying "feels not reals"? Like, not sarcastically?
posted by Justinian at 7:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


you lost me at kanye, but your citing him explains a lot.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm baffled any time someone mentions charisma and Donald Trump in the same sentence.

It's like 1/2 our country suddenly got hybristophilia.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


I don't think Hillary has that kind of Transluminiscent Aetiology.

I know Transluminiscent Aetiology. I got the best Transluminiscent Aetiology. I got yuge Transluminiscent Aetiology, believe me, and it's gonna be fantastic.
posted by tclark at 7:50 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump doesn't have charisma, people watch him for the same reason they slow down at a car wreck--is it really that bad, oh my god it is! It's fascinating in a sick way, if you like, but not charismatic.

I can't speak for all the reasons people vote for him, but it's not charisma. Celebrity + thrill of the forbidden (open racism/misogyny) + desire to stick it to people they resent +fuck you that's why! seems like a likely formula though.
posted by emjaybee at 7:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


MeFite lawysers:

Could all the contractors Trump robbed get together for a class action lawsuit?
posted by ocschwar at 7:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


One thing is for sure: The next time some MRA douche starts to go on about how all women love assholes, I'm going to ask if he voted for Donald Trump.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [19 favorites]


I still won't vote for him.

Which is good because it suggests that you're smart enough not to believe your own bullshit.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


Could all the contractors Trump robbed get together for a class action lawsuit?

Reddit IAARLs said "no", because there's no common element to their robbery, just a common robber. That sounds about right to me.
posted by holgate at 7:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Well, I do agree that there needs to be stronger attempt to appeal to emotions on the Left. Voters are (mostly) not deciding on facts. The problem is that Left projects are emotionally rooted in things like empathy, common cause, hope for the future, and those things are not as easy to engender in a 2 minute TV ad as fear, anger, and resentment.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've almost forgotten that there is a Metafilter outside of the election threads.

Before this election season, in the mornings after taking care of the pets and getting spouse and spawn out the door, my rhythm was to have coffee and toast while catching up with new posts and comments for 45 minutes or so. I looked forward to it and interesting /uplifting posts often set the tone for the day.

Now I grab the tablet before getting out of bed to catch up on The Current Thread. Now I often don't even look at the front page until evening. This election can't be over soon enough.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


I'm baffled any time someone mentions charisma and Donald Trump in the same sentence.... I'd turn around and walk the other direction.

Then you've never met anyone who was extremely charismatic. I have, up to and including the Big Dog himself, President William Jefferson Clinton, and let me tell you -- even if you know for a fact that you are about to meet a charismatic con man who is going to try to essentially sell you a car without letting you look under the hood, there is a damn good chance that you will end up buying the car and enjoying having been taken for the ride.
posted by Etrigan at 8:00 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


Here's what keeps me up at night: Ratings for the town hall debate climb even higher as an ever-increasing population tunes it to watch Trump do more self-immolation. Trump shows up at the third debate obviously drunk, and steps down the next day, citing an unfair, unlevel playing field. The RNC invokes Rule 9 of this and unilaterally gives Mitt a second stab at the nomination. That sliver of America that sits between the solid 35% of repub supporters no matter what and the 45% of the incredulously happily snaps back to voting for the repub candidate, saving the nation from the total disgrace of having someone with no Y chromosome as their leader.

In the long threads I don't know if anyone's mentioned Malcom Gladwell's Revisionist History first episode on tokenism and moral self-licensing. He plays a clip where Marc Maron (I think) asked Obama how it feels to be America's last black president, and suggests that if Clinton wins, there's a very good chance she will be the last woman elected to the position for a long time to come. It feels almost the same for someone to say they were going to vote for her, and switched back to Romney, but that shows how open-minded they are.
posted by morspin at 8:02 PM on September 29, 2016


Trump shows up at the third debate obviously drunk, and steps down the next day

I really don't think Trump is going to drop out at this point. And if he does, there won't be unity behind the effort to replace him, but utter chaos. Rubio and Cruz will both think it's their turn and they'll be lobbying fiercly. It will be a complete disaster and will take weeks to resolve. Then whoever they pick will have exactly one week to convince America to vote for him/her. That's not enough time. Many ballots will still have Trump's name on them. Early voters will have already voted for Clinton or Trump. Nobody will know what is what. Clinton will take 400 EVs.
posted by dis_integration at 8:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


and unilaterally gives Mitt a second stab at the nomination.

na ga happen. The elections are now in the hands of the several states and their respective election laws, and RNC rules don't mean shit.
posted by holgate at 8:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump shows up at the third debate obviously drunk, and steps down the next day

Ha ha. No. He'd just claim Clinton drugged him somehow.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm watching the Frontline thing now. It's pretty amazing.
Just dropping in to recommend that you recommend it. And recommending that you watch the some WH correspondents' dinner videos after, especially 2015 and 16.
posted by rp at 8:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'd definitely buy that Bill Clinton is wicked charismatic. Everyone who's ever met him says so and while I myself am not a fan of the way he has comported himself in his personal life, I can definitely detect charisma even through the TV. He might be a phony but he's got the charisma such that no one sees it or (more likely) no one cares. You want to listen to him talk, you want to hear what he has to say, you want to be his friend.

Trump on the other hand I literally cannot stand to hear talk and watching him in action makes me cringe with second-hand embarrassment. That is not charisma.

And frankly I don't think that charisma is really possible without empathy. The thing everyone says about Bill Clinton is that he makes everyone else disappear and it's just you and him because he's so convincing that he's completely 100% into you, and only you, at that moment. A narcissist can't achieve that because the only person who is ever truly real to them is themselves.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [77 favorites]


You... you're saying "feels not reals"? Like, not sarcastically?


Yes, because what's 'real'? You can take one fact and interpret it a zillion ways through your own personal mythology. Like... I went to Trump Tower as a kid. Back then, I saw it as decadant and ugly hotel with bad food. But if I was walking like an Egyptian king, I'd see it as a monument to power. If I'm imagining myself as Percy Shelley, I can see it as a future monument to hubris. If I'm looking at it through the lens of labor, I can see it as an explotative form of capitalism. If I'm looking at it aestheically from a helicopter I see it as part of the skyline. Etc.

Pedantic fact-checking inspires nobody and exalts nobody. Trump is wrong, but he's also presenting a larger than life persona, a sort of wrestling heel vibe that I try and channel whenever I'm performing - hatred is a powerful energy. The left has forgotten that tradition of bold statements and powerful gestures (except on the fringes, like Bernie or musicians like Springsteen).

Read some Sam Kriss:

It's notable that this development only took place in the context of the emergence of a truly global capitalism and what the philosopher Max Horkheimer would later call "instrumental reason"—scientific reason that doesn't just explain reality, but which is put to use (the mode of reason that alienates people from a world reconfigured as one vast factory). For millions, technological advances meant not freedom, but utter misery—and just as it declares that everything can be known, instrumental reason abstracts that knowledge beyond immediate experience. "Enlightenment," Horkheimer writes, "has always aimed at liberating human beings from fear and installing them as masters. Yet the wholly enlightened Earth is radiant with triumphant calamity." Faced with a reality that could no longer be intuitively understood, whose secrets had become the property of a small class of scientists and administrators, the early flat earthers tried to claw back some of their autonomy. They insisted that their own experience, not the diktat of a ruling class, was true. And when you look at the Earth with your own two eyes, it doesn't look round. It looks flat.

I'm still not voting for Trump, because his policies will cause measurable harm to millions of people.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


And frankly I don't think that charisma is really possible without empathy. The thing everyone says about Bill Clinton is that he makes everyone else disappear and it's just you and him because he's so convincing that he's completely 100% into you, and only you, at that moment. A narcissist can't achieve that because the only person who is ever truly real to them is themselves.

Aren't there tricks to fake empathy, though? There's got to be a guide book or something, or there wouldn't be so many charismatic sociopaths. Something to do with eye contact and pretending to listen and care?
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah but that would imply that Donald Trump has read a book. I am pretty sure he has not.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Read some Sam Kriss:

Sam Kriss has no idea what Adorno & Horkheimer are talking about.
posted by dis_integration at 8:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Something to do with eye contact and pretending to listen and care?

Yes, but Trump can't be bothered to do this. He bullies, and I guess that appeals to certain people. There must be a lot more masochists out there than I thought.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Someone random on Twitter made the point that Trump's campaign mailing list can now probably be sold at a decent premium to any right-wing shyster for the next decade.

Ugh, something needs to happen to call in his loans fast. I don't really want it to be the stock market pressure on Deutsche Bank.
posted by holgate at 8:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah but that would imply that Donald Trump has read a book. I am pretty sure he has not.


I was talking about Bill Clinton, and my question wasn't rhetorical. I'm genuinely curious as to whether self-centered sociopaths can learn to fake empathy. I'd be shocked if they couldn't. Hell why doesn't Bill stump up for some of the same media training or personality training or whatever that he used for Hillary?
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:14 PM on September 29, 2016


I'm working on a few of my habitually non-voting friends here in Massachusetts to cast a ballot this election on the basis that there's a pretty decent recreational marijuana legalization bill on the ballot, and the polls for it are close so every vote matters. (Bottom line: legal in private only, legal age is 21, possession of up to ten ounces permitted, tax rate is 10%, and you're allowed to grow up to 6 plants.) At least one is wavering. We shall see.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yes, but Trump can't be bothered to do this. He bullies, and I guess that appeals to certain people. I guess there are a lot more masochists out there than I thought.


If you agree with what Trump (or Kanye, or whoever) is saying, it's not 'bullying' to say what you believe as loudly and as pointedly as possible. In fact, you could argue that if you believe something strongly you have a moral/personal duty to say that thing as often and as loudly as possible.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:15 PM on September 29, 2016


Trek Against Trump

Kirk: liberal interventionist, advocate of responsibility to protect, thus in Hillary's camp since day one. Currently out banging on doors.

Picard: acknowledged Hillary as the rational alternative after seriously considering all options, even Carson. Currently spending time on 4chan advocating for the rights of all sentient beings.

Sisko: voted for Bernie in the primaries. While it pains him to see America so far from a socialist utopia, he is proud, proud, to support the candidate who's holding back the night. Currently doing the dirtiest job the Clinton campaign can find.

Janeway: preferred Clinton in the primaries, voted for Cruz. Will do whatever it takes to stop Trump (don't ask).
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:17 PM on September 29, 2016 [37 favorites]


Compulsory voting like Australia has would fix this, by the way. It tends to favor bland moderates over the charismatic, so no Trump.

On a non-personal note, I remember a Spider-Man 2099 comic I read as a kid that had somebody asking for money with "President Clinton" on it - the punchline was 'Bill or Hillary?"

I can't seem to find a scan online, though, so maybe I imagined it.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:17 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


1st ballot hall of fame basketball player and NBA champion Ray Allen: "Hillary was great last night!! I'm with her!!!"
posted by cashman at 8:17 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trek illustrates what I mean. Kirk is closer to Trump - like the rest of the Original Series he had the courage of his convictions and a brash, restless energy. Picard was a boring administrator, a Hillary type, a facillitator who spent his time in conference rooms. Janeway was the same. Sisko was the only one who had both the fire and social justice conviction we need right now.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kirk is closer to Trump

Oh man, let's not go here.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:21 PM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


Compulsory voting like Australia has would fix this, by the way.

Wat. You know about Tony Abbott, right? Climate denier, Fucker-over of refugee boat people? Compulsory voting has its upsides, but "fixing" this problem is not among them.
posted by tclark at 8:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Kirk is closer to Trump - like the rest of the Original Series he had the courage of his convictions and a brash, restless energy.

Kirk is closer to Bill Clinton. And maybe that's the skeleton key: Hillary can deal with Trump because (mixing my geekdom metaphors) Trump is sorta kinda the Chaotic Evil alignment version of Chaotic Good Bill.
posted by holgate at 8:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [26 favorites]


I was talking about Bill Clinton, and my question wasn't rhetorical. I'm genuinely curious as to whether self-centered sociopaths can learn to fake empathy. I'd be shocked if they couldn't.

Speaking from personal experience: they absolutely can. I knew a charismatic sociopath intimately, and she basically did her homework: she was good at active listening, she did research for her lies. She figured out what people wanted to hear, told them that and played with them for her amusement. She made sure to set everyone close to her against each other so we wouldn't compare notes, too. (I think of that period of my life as 'that time I dated Saffron from Firefly.')

Trump... I think it's fair to say Trump is doing the lazy rich man version of that, actually. He's not appealing to people like *me*, but he's doing similar basic tricks: trying to appear to be what the crowd wants, when deep down, he would just as soon pour gasoline on those people and light them on fire. If he'd grown up poor, it's a fair bet he'd be better at the tool set.

Trek illustrates what I mean. Kirk is closer to Trump - like the rest of the Original Series he had the courage of his convictions and a brash, restless energy.

Ugh. No, just no.
posted by mordax at 8:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Again, personality-wise. Which means that, unlike Picard and everyone other than Sisko, he has a personality. And he uses it in favor of what was, at the time, progressive causes. We need that.

Basically, the left used to be cool. What happened?
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't think it's charisma, it's an attraction to a display of confidence. Confidence can be part of what makes someone charismatic but it also can work on it's own. Some people are just attracted to 'confidence' and it doesn't necessarily matter what that person is confident about. You can literally talk a bunch a bull and if you pull off the display some people will by it. During my activist and political escapades it was one of the top skills communication experts advised us to work on because projecting confidence was a persuasion technique that worked beyond whatever words were said.

It is totally gendered though. Men have it a whole lot easier using this skill because of misogynist perception of women being confident but regardless it still works.
posted by Jalliah at 8:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]




"(mixing my geekdom metaphors)"

Listen, I just need to know which one's Rick Grimes and which one's King Joffrey, okay?
posted by komara at 8:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Thank you, Joe.
posted by rp at 8:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wat. You know about Tony Abbott, right? Climate denier, Fucker-over of refugee boat people? Compulsory voting has its upsides, but "fixing" this problem is not among them.

Yes, but he's still pretty mild, went to a good school, qualified politician, etc. And he was replaced by the closest his party had to a centre-left populist (until Turnbull went bad).
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:24 PM on September 29, 2016


I don't understand the attempt to dress up Trump's appeal or approach is some kind of theoretical understanding that can be replicated by Democrats.

He's selfish, self-centered and afraid. That's the root of his problem and his actions or 'speaking his mind' won't ultimately bring him or anyone else anywhere towards something resembling progress.
posted by localhuman at 8:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


You can literally talk a bunch a bull and if you pull off the display some people will by it.

See, there's that assumption that there's anything you can say that isn't some form of 'bullshit'.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:24 PM on September 29, 2016


Yes, but he's still pretty mild, went to a good school, qualified politician, etc.

This is much more an artifact of the parliamentary system than compulsory voting.
posted by tclark at 8:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


If you agree with what Trump (or Kanye, or whoever) is saying, it's not 'bullying' to say what you believe as loudly and as pointedly as possible. In fact, you could argue that if you believe something strongly you have a moral/personal duty to say that thing as often and as loudly as possible.

No. Like seriously no. There is a big difference between speaking strong, loudly and forcefully and bullying. They are so not the same thing. Ugh. Ugh Ugh
posted by Jalliah at 8:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [36 favorites]


He's selfish, self-centered and afraid. That's the root of his problem and his actions or 'speaking his mind' won't ultimately bring him or anyone else anywhere towards something resembling progress.

But I'm selfish, self-centred, and afraid. And because I'm self-centered, I'd prefer politics that give me free healthcare and welfare and keep my minority and LGBT friends safe, and my country prosperous, and WWIII not starting. And I can't be the only self, self-centered, and afraid person with those politics. The Left can't afford to abandon all the sad, angry geeks to the alt-Right and the Trumposphere because eventually that crew will build Trump 2.0 and get some sucess. I've had this argument a zillion times - people on our side need more passion and fire and anger.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I've had this argument a zillion times - people on our side need more passion and fire and anger.

You mean bullies?
posted by Jalliah at 8:28 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Pedantic fact-checking inspires nobody and exalts nobody

I love pedantic fact-checking! Obama does it really well, too. "The reality is...Let us be very clear that...."

A lot of what Trump does is bullying - or at least, bombast and swagger. And I really think it interacts with many people's psychology of strength/authority in a way that's comfortable to them. It's amazing to think that that many people have internalized a history of abuse, that we have a third of the nation operating under Stockholm Syndrome, but that might very well be what's up.
posted by Miko at 8:28 PM on September 29, 2016 [62 favorites]


It's the fantasy that the rich asshole boss who's terrorized them either with his opaque demands or gigantic financial power is going to be on their side now and help pull the other crabs back into the bucket.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


I don't know at what point the left was "cool" the way Trump is "cool". Progressivism hasn't been something you can really do to piss off your parents within my voting lifetime, certainly. It hasn't, within my voting lifetime, been in a position to divorce the "fun" stuff, like more liberal attitudes about sex and drugs, from stuff like how you're supposed to sort your recycling and drive less and give more of your money to social causes. Trump's "cool" is that he allows people to abandon responsibility for the system and insist that all the problems lay with the people who are currently being hurt by the system. We can't do that. We can't win people who want that without abandoning principles.

On the up side, despite those people being noisily miserable all over the internet, there aren't actually that many of them.
posted by Sequence at 8:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's not that. It's the willingness to call out bullshit (which, as I just noted, is everything). Everybody knows that Trump is a meglomaniacl monster, but why isn't anyone saying it besides comedians? Why has it been so long since, Obama aside, we had firey rhetoric and mythic oratory on the Left? We should be telling stories of the sad and underprivleged we need to help. One Springsteen song off The River about the plight of Mexican immigrants would do more to stop The Wall than a zillion Nate Silver predictions or John Oliver zingers.

Jeb Lund said it best:

Trump cut through over a dozen Republican candidates like an industrial saw shredding a box of Kleenex, and it couldn't have happened to a more dismal gallery of frauds. After years of complaining about deficits while promoting tax cuts that reduced government revenues by trillions, after years of promoting dominionist Christianity while claiming religious discrimination, after years of claiming to be victims while blaming everything wrong in America on homosexuals and college professors and minorities and Islam, after years of saying whatever the fuck they felt like and repeating it until it sounded true, each one of these blow-dried mediocrities got fired from The Apprentice: Republican Party by someone with even more sociopathic contempt for facts, logical consistency and other human beings than they had.
Hell, it wasn't even difficult. Just coming up with mean nicknames was enough on a stage teeming with their brand of puffed-up prevaricating nincompoopery. Donald Trump wasn't a legendary force, and he wasn't a ruthless killer. He was the only guy with a fork in a room full of inflatable clown punching bags – shoving them and waiting for them to rock back and forth, their fixed idiotic grins leaning into the fatal puncture.

posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


This business between the Daily Stormers and Milo is deeply disturbing. It appears that they're complaining about a sort of cultural appropriation, obviously without using that phrase, of the term "alt-right" by people the Stormers consider to be insufficiently pure (either because they're not racist enough or worse, because they have some kind of connection to Judaism). This excerpt (archive.is link, contains ethnic slurs and an offensive caricature of Yiannopoulos) is instructive:
It’s important to understand that MILO isn’t trying to become the leader of the Alt-Right. He’s just trying to use it, in the same way that Glenn Beck used the Tea Party to get himself a show on Fox News. Glenn Beck stopped talking about the Tea Party as soon as it had been sucked dry.

Vox Day posted a blog yesterday attacking me for some reason (I’ve never said anything bad about the guy), in which he stated that MILO’s goal is to get a show on Fox News. And he’d know. They’re friends.

We created a movement, got massive media attention for trolling, then we allowed this [extremely offensive slur for a Jewish person] to come in and redefine it and now it’s basically over.

Alt-Right: Now or Never
Hate to say it, fam. But I guess I have to, because no one else is going to: if we don’t get control of this term now, it’s going to be gone real soon. Alex Jones is already picking it up, and this week used it to refer to the Jew Michael Savage (nee Weiner) and well as Stephen Crowder (he actually said Hillary was a Nazi going after the Alt-Right Jew Savage). Vox Day is doing something weird with it and MILO is doing his thing.

I’m doing my best to hold down the fort here. I’m doing interviews making sure the term is associated with White Nationalism.
As far as I can tell, they're pissed off that they spent all this time coming up with dank memes for their little white supremacy trolling club, and now a bunch of folks, some of them the very enemies the Stormers fight against, who are merely deplorable racists are coming in and adopting the banner in the hope of fame and profit.
posted by zachlipton at 8:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [29 favorites]


I do think that the closing argument against Trump is to invoke the pain of being conned to people who may have been conned. Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

they're pissed off that they spent all this time coming up with dank memes for their little white supremacy trolling club

The He-Man Pepe Appropriators Club.
posted by holgate at 8:34 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


zach, thanks for reading that stuff and summarizing so I don't have to.
posted by mmoncur at 8:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Everybody knows that Trump is a meglomaniacl monster, but why isn't anyone saying it besides comedians?

Well, there's something to be said for the ability to remain calm when a toddler is throwing a tantrum at your feet. Besides, hysterical name-calling doesn't really look good on a person. There are ways to demonstrate conviction that aren't predicated on being the loudest person in the room.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


some perspective, via Kurt Anderson:
Imagine a woman who showed up [to a presidential debate] unprepared, sniffling like a coke addict and interrupting her opponent 70 times. Let’s further imagine that she had 5 kids by 3 men, was a repeated adulterer, had multiple bankruptcies, paid zero federal taxes and rooted for the housing crisis in which many thousands of families lost their homes. Wait… there’s more: she has never held any elected office in her life.” -Michelle Vitalione
posted by lalex at 8:43 PM on September 29, 2016 [117 favorites]


This business between the Daily Stormers and Milo is deeply disturbing.

Also sadly predictable. If you join forces with people where hating certain types of people is part of their worldview and you're one of those people, you're only going to get a pass for so long. They will eventually fight you.
posted by Jalliah at 8:44 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


holgate: this looks and sounds SO much better. The time counters remind me of something else I thought during the debate: it would be such an easy thing to add to have rows of LEDs light up behind each candidate when it's their speaking time so that if someone is going over time or interrupted and talking over another, it would be VISUALLY obvious to everyone. This would literally cut down on 90% of interruptions.

This is what you have in Canadian elections (well, just 3? 5? lights that count down when you're running out of time). When the last light goes off, the mic turns off automatically.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


If you get cut off on stage, you can always heckle and interrupt from the audience.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:52 PM on September 29, 2016


We need fewer scoops and more "don't fucking vote for this person" editorials.

Every paper in the country coming out against Trump may do some good among the old-school Republicans (for whom Trump is already questionable) I suppose. It has to do less than zero good among people who like him. Newspapers are losers!
posted by atoxyl at 8:52 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's not that. It's the willingness to call out bullshit (which, as I just noted, is everything).

Your demand for more people with a "willingness to call out bullshit" at the same time you are trying to argue that everything is bullshit, should be evidence enough that you're just talking gibberish at this point. Whatever you're looking for here, it doesn't have anything to do with politics.

(I assume that's Milo on the Stormer page. Sigh. What a waste of good drag.)

(I can't write "Milo" without thinking "Milo Minderbinder.")
posted by octobersurprise at 8:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [41 favorites]


It's not like it's difficult to think of ways to get the candidates to keep to time, not interrupt, etc. Shutting off mic, LEDs, sure. People have thought of (and implemented) these things. The problem is that the debates are highly controlled and exhaustively negotiated performances. The campaigns spend months in talks with the Commission on Presidential Debates, and the structure and format - including things like time cues - is set in advance. Near universally, campaigns don't want these sorts of indicators or hard and fast cutoffs, so we don't have them. And they actually tweaked the formats quite a bit this year.
posted by Miko at 8:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


As far as I can tell, they're pissed off that they spent all this time coming up with dank memes for their little white supremacy trolling club, and now a bunch of folks, some of them the very enemies the Stormers fight against, who are merely deplorable racists are coming in and adopting the banner in the hope of fame and profit.

I struggle to have any sympathy for Milo, who by his own admission is a professional troll out only for the 'lolz', and personal profit. Huh, some white supremacists mean what they say, whodathunkit.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:04 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


Lindsay Ellis did a Loose Canon episode about how Hillary Clinton has been portrayed in pop-culture over the last 25-odd years. In particular, there's a lot of focus on how she's been portrayed on SNL. It's interesting to see how traits like "smart," "ambitious," "conniving," or "in over her head" wax and wane in the public imagination.

Also, the super early stuff where Bill & Hillary were seen as being deeply in love with each other.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 9:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think Trump has some charisma, and good delivery of lines at times (which is a small thing but small things can be very important). But that's not the reason he's done so well in the campaign. Most of the reason is that he can attack people without seeming mean and he has a wide arsenal of how to attack people: with a bit of humor, nicknames, sideway swipes, jocular exaggeration, and if I watched the primary debates with pen and paper I could make a much longer list. He's done this for all of his life, it's almost like a hobby or a bit like a sport. Other people tense up a bit or get a kind of a solemn look when they go on attack, but he can do that with natural ease. And this is what a lot of campaigning boils down to. This had been the dilimma of campaigning: negative ads work, but at the same time open you to criticism that you are taking the low road, you're mudslinging. Trump has been able to get the best of both worlds: he's going far more negative than anyone but at the same time it almost feels like he's just having a conversation with you and happened to mention a few things, and whether they are good, bad.. you tell me!

In the debate he kind of leaned too much on it (as well as on repetition for emphasis). That's not good, makes it too obvious, the pattern starts to unravel. If he prepares well next time, it could work again. He doesn't have enough time for the second, but in third I think he might be dangerous.
posted by rainy at 9:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


On charisma: during a previous presidential campaign — I think it was 2008 — late one night around the time of the conventions, CSPAN was showing historical footage of old conventions. At this time, they were showing Eisenhower's acceptance speech at the 1956 Republican convention — so, he was running for his second term.

I don't think I had ever seen footage of Eisenhower speaking before. And my God, he projected such a confident moral certitude in his convictions. I was ready to vote for him within five minutes of listening to him, regardless of the issues. Purely on the issues I imagine I would have preferred Stevenson, had I been alive and a voter then, but Ike was such a compelling speaker I'd probably have voted for him instead.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've almost forgotten that there is a Metafilter outside of the election threads.

Some of us are working really hard to provide a light counterpoint to this dreary election season. Come up for air once in a while ;)
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Your demand for more people with a "willingness to call out bullshit" at the same time you are trying to argue that everything is bullshit, should be evidence enough that you're just talking gibberish at this point. Whatever you're looking for here, it doesn't have anything to do with politics.


Exactly! That's why Trump is powerful. People call him on his 'contridications', as if somebody making a statement 10 years ago is the same person or the same context as somebody now. People critisize his 'hypocrisy' in changing statements to appeal to different groups, as if it's not something everyone else does. All he cares about - all he appears to care about - is winning by manipulating people, and the 'truth' or 'facts' are secondary. Which sounds like an insult, but it's the only way to win in politics - by constantly maniuplating and twisting narratives and groups of people. It can be used so easily for progressive causes! Did politicians or Will and Grace do more for gay marriage? Did scientists or Seth Rogan do more for marijuana legalisation? Is there any doubt that Bill Clinton does what Trump does, only better? If the Left wants to win, they need to seize the power of narratives, not rely on some base conception of 'facts'.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 9:10 PM on September 29, 2016


Ohio has not fallen into step with the demographic changes transforming the United States, growing older, whiter and less educated […]

OMG I am Ohio.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


[Charlemagne in Sweatpants, your philosophy has been adequately expounded here. Please let it drop now. Thanks. ]
posted by restless_nomad at 9:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [79 favorites]


Clinton should have picked a vice president who couild match Trump, but unfortunatley, The Onion's Joe Biden is fictional.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 9:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Miko: mic shutoffs would not work well because they still make moderator look unfair, and sometimes depending on question people might need 10 seconds here and there to finish the thought, to have a factual response, etc. A led indicator would be great because it would be a soft "cutoff": when the opposing light is on, it would be understood that there's a bit of leeway but a speaker's overtime would be evaluated by audience immediately as to how long it is, how often does he need it, what exactly is he saying that was so important that he needed 20s overtime here, 30s overtime there, etc. There would be a lot less speaker vs. moderator dynamic that Trump abused. Much less complaints after the debate.
posted by rainy at 9:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


It appears that they're complaining about a sort of cultural appropriation, obviously without using that phrase, of the term "alt-right" by people the Stormers consider to be insufficiently pure

Ha! I ran across the other side of this conflict the other day. The alt-right trolls allege that the neo-Nazis only joined the "alt-right" banner because, wait for it... false-flagging liberals drew them in by putting their coded symbols into dank alt-right memes. Because the Left are the REAL fascists, or something. Hoo boy.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 9:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


The campaigns spend months in talks with the Commission on Presidential Debates, and the structure and format - including things like time cues - is set in advance.

Forgive the mansplain, but there is actually no formal campaign-driven agreement on structure and format this year like there was in 2012. In essence, both campaigns have signed off on the format as set by the CPD.
posted by holgate at 9:16 PM on September 29, 2016


My wife was once in the same room as Bill Clinton. She didn't meet him, speak with him or even come within 30 feet of him, and even so she said she could pick up on the charisma he exuded.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:16 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


I've had this argument a zillion times - people on our side need more passion and fire and anger.

Speak for yourself.

Aside from the gendered aspect (because a woman who gets publicly, passionately angry about something has never been accused of being an unstable bitch or anything), I don't agree that "our side" needs this. Or rather, I don't agree that this should be the role of the President.

I don't need a President who oozes charisma and is always exuding some kind of "passion". That sounds fucking exhausting. Don't get me wrong, I could listen to Obama recite the goddamn phone book. But I love him more for his measured thoughtfulness than his soaring oratory. When he does get personal, or angry, or hurt, it's fifty million times more powerful because he's so constrained about it.

All movements need people of passion and fire - but they also need the more measured types, the wonks, the people who play the long game and work for incremental changes they know they can get, even when it means falling short and compromising. We need to the former for their vision of how the world can be, and we need the latter for their knowledge of how the world actually is. Maybe there's a platonic ideal of a presidential candidate who marries both of these qualities equally, but I'm not holding my breath. And frankly, in terms of inspiration, I'm personally more inspired by a particular person from Group 2. She's the adult I want running this show.

This goes back to my (probably tiresome at this point) pushback against the idea that Everyone Hates Hillary (or at least finds her an vastly uninspiring choice). She may not have the oratorical skills of her husband or Obama, but I don't need it. Apparently she does the Small Groups Charisma thing incredibly well - I don't know, I've never met her in person - but even so, I'm buying what she's selling. Just because it's not working for you doesn't mean it's not working for everyone.

Also...please to rewatch some classic Trek. I know that Kirk has sort of become known as being the hotshot, by-the-seat-of-his-pants dude who bags all the babes, but my most recent rewatch really made me see the character in a new light, and now I find myself sticking up for him. It was so obvious that his first love was to his ship and the safety of everyone on it, and it surprised me to see how downright conservative he could be when it came right down to it.

(I love the idea of Sisko being the one to do the dirty work that Clinton can't do herself. It's sort of the Bucky and Cap story, in the Winter Soldier comics retcon.)
posted by Salieri at 9:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [68 favorites]


mic shutoffs would not work well because they still make moderator look unfair, and sometimes depending on question people might need 10 seconds here and there to finish the thought, to have a factual response, etc.

The moderator isn't shutting the mic off, which makes it pretty hard to claim the moderator is unfair. And in practice I think the lights include a 5 second grace period....so you get time is running out, time is running out..time out..4, 3, 2, 1 off.

The fact is that if you KNOW how much time you have from the start and you KNOW you're going to be held to that time, you give answers that fill that time, within 3 or 4 seconds. This is what debaters (as in university debaters) do, because you absolutely cannot go over and because you will lose points for leaving more than a couple of seconds unfilled. I realize that the importance of the debates is very different here, but if a bunch of 18 year olds can learn to make their answers fit an arbitrary length of time, then presidential candidates with hoards of advisers and coaches can do it, too.

This isn't a situation where you talk for a while and the moderator says "ok 30 more seconds" and you never actually knew how long you would have until they said that. If you know from the second you open your mouth that you have 2 minutes, you will be very practiced at knowing what 2 minutes feels like, knowing how to organize an answer that lasts 2 minutes, and knowing how to explain your various talking points in 2 minutes (assuming you bothered to prep for the debate).
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


CIS: there's a difference in saying this is a dark color when it's deep navy, and saying it's black when it's white. For instance, Trump flatly denied the global warming statement or the support of Iraq war. Clinton said she did not do anything illegal with emails, but that it was a mistake. That's perhaps one of her most notable semi-fibs. Illegal is a fairly vague term and she picked a point in that vagueness that suited her. In other words, sometimes we lie because language is inherently imprecise, sometimes we lie because interpret things in a favorable light, and sometimes we are just like "No I did not take your sandwich from the fridge, I'm frankly a little insulted that you even thought I'm capable of that, oh you saw me alright bro."
posted by rainy at 9:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


I don't think I had ever seen footage of Eisenhower speaking before. And my God, he projected such a confident moral certitude in his convictions. I was ready to vote for him within five minutes of listening to him, regardless of the issues. Purely on the issues I imagine I would have preferred Stevenson, had I been alive and a voter then, but Ike was such a compelling speaker I'd probably have voted for him instead.

In 2008, a guy my dad went to seminary with ran for Congress as a Democrat against Michele Bachmann. They had one televised debate, and I watched it over the internet. It was immediately obvious she would win. You'd have never guessed she was known for wild-eyed crazy statements. She absolutely had the charisma of a national politician, and spoke so certainly about appropriations and filling pot-holes.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 9:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


What Trump does is basically the implicit working concept of a lot of comedy. The idea being you are mocking people to an audience, which by dint of being spoken to and thus "in" on the conversation are immunized from the direct attack of the bit, It's "other people" not being addressed who are bear the brunt of the joke since those who are 'there' are expected to "get it" and develop a bond of sorts with the comedian by their approving response.

With someone like Trump this would mean the people he's addressing can see him as "tough" instead of a bully because he's talking to them so, implicitly, they expect there's been a bond developed that protects them from those who must be his real targets. Standing behind a bully can be a pretty safe space to be in if you don't think the bully will be successfully challenged.

The Bill Clinton charisma thing is weird to me since I could not stand the man at all in no small part because of my reaction to his brand of "empathy". But I could obviously see and hear that other people swooned when he spoke. It was a source of a lot of contention for me among my politically active acquaintanceships at the time. Bill was undeniably the most gifted politician I've ever seen, but I say that without it being meant necessarily as a compliment.

One of the problems with bullshit is that at some point you actually have to govern and that takes actual boring bureaucratic effort. Saying whatever you want might sound appealing, though it becomes gobbledygook pretty quickly, but presidents still need to achieve real results for it to mean anything and that requires support based on different kinds of appeals. Hoping to elect a messiah is deeply foolish since no one can govern only by sheer force of bull and people who are willing to try are likely to be the least suitable individuals imaginable for the presidency of world superpower.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:37 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


If only I had a penguin: I agree that's better than current system but it seems more rigid than necessary here. After all, speakers here are sometimes addressing something the opponent brought up, and answering moderator in the same time slot. In theory, the goal here is not to see who wins but to let speakers explain their position to the electorate as efficiently as possible. Constraints on student debaters are totally different: they're not after all speaking to a 100 million strong audience at all levels of knowledge, unerstanding, etc, and they are usually not covering future, past and present policies and events of a vast country, as well as personal history of themselves and their opponents over past 40 years or so. I think letting them overshoot time adds fluidity to the conversation and should be totally fine as long as speakers know that full audience is aware of how much and for which topic they went overtime.

It just seems like a more natural and easy system than we have and doesn't inherently give advantage to either side.
posted by rainy at 9:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trek Against Trump

I just noticed that all of the surviving principal cast of the reboot series (Pine, Quinto, Urban, Pegg, Saldana, Cho) have signed on. Logically, my political agreement with the actors should not affect my artistic appreciation of the movies. But I'm no Vulcan, and now I like the Kelvin timeline movies slightly more than I did before.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Two of them are good, and one of them has a plot!
posted by Artw at 9:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Ah, I see we've reached the weekly edition of "Why Do the Democrats All Suck?"

Pretty sure in the UK this game is called "Why Does the Labour Party All Suck?" And I'm pretty sure it happens everywhere there are politicians, because expecting politicians to be perfect vessels for the Saving of The World is not going to end well.

And then every once in a while a politician comes along that everyone agrees doesn't suck, and then either they are defeated, in which case they get to go on being perfect for ever and ever, The One True Candidate that would have fixed everything, dammit. (See Bernie Sanders.) Or they are elected, in which cause everyone eventually decides Actually They Sucked The Whole Time because they aren't able to save the world after all. (See Obama.)

I think it's a far better idea to accept that candidates are flawed individuals who all have some combination of strengths and weaknesses and to make a decision about what your political priorities are and then work towards electing the person who is most likely to bring those things about, but I'm sure it'd far more fun to complain about how much people suck.
posted by threeturtles at 10:03 PM on September 29, 2016 [57 favorites]


Not sure the Labour Party comparison really holds, since the Democrats are not currently on fire, sinking and exploding simultaneously.
posted by Artw at 10:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [31 favorites]


A week ago democrats were polling in dead heat with Donald J. Trump tho.
posted by rainy at 10:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Australia's Labor Party ran Peter Garrett from Midnight Oil and somehow managed to turn him from a super-charismatic frontman to a bloodless party functionary.

I thought UK Labor was going great thanks to Corbyn.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 10:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's not like it's difficult to think of ways to get the candidates to keep to time, not interrupt, etc. Shutting off mic, LEDs, sure. People have thought of (and implemented) these things.

Stick 'em on the Jeopardy set and let Alex Trebeck at them. "I'll take Foreign affairs for $1000, Alex"...
posted by mikelieman at 10:21 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'd pay cash money to see Donnie's face during the 30 seconds of Think! music...
posted by mikelieman at 10:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Is there a chance that Gary Johnson quits at the end of Oct and endorses Hillary? Or just quits?
posted by rainy at 10:26 PM on September 29, 2016


He'll quit, but then when they ask him which candidate he's going to vote for he won't be able to think of one.
posted by mmoncur at 10:35 PM on September 29, 2016 [58 favorites]


Vote Aleppo / Fox 2016!
posted by rainy at 10:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


It is so sad that "Aleppo" has become a local joke at the expense of a local unfunny-joke candidate when it is a city that is at very least twelve times older than the USA and right now is so afflicted that families sleep in the same room so that if an air strike or artillery bombardment hits them there will be no widowed adults or orphaned children.

The 18-month drag of the US campaign has ensured that the humanitarian catastrophe in Syria will continue into 2017, and probably much longer, given what's at stake there. Even then, it will be for Obama what Rwanda is for Bill Clinton.
posted by holgate at 10:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [57 favorites]


My wife was once in the same room as Bill Clinton. She didn't meet him, speak with him or even come within 30 feet of him, and even so she said she could pick up on the charisma he exuded.

In the summer of 1992, when I was 14 and about to enter 9th grade, I went to a Clinton rally in Westlake Park in downtown Seattle. I was near the stage, and when Bill Clinton got to the part of his stump speech about college, he looked me right in the eyes and I swear to god it was like being hit by lightning.
posted by palomar at 10:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


The 18-month drag of the US campaign has ensured that the humanitarian catastrophe in Syria will continue into 2017

If you had told me five years ago that the USA would ever again provide weapons to Al Qaeda affiliates I would have been hornswoggled.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 10:56 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Syrian army is not a bunch of dudes with machetes. They have S-400 anti-air defense. There's a russian naval station, a lot of Russian nationals at the beginning of war. Assad has a lot of support among Alawite population and not only. Really nothing like Rwanda. It's a mess in the middle east in the same way as Iraq, Afghanistan and Palesitine are a mess. Plus the Russian base and nationals.
posted by rainy at 11:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


This is awesome, Colbert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mmy2eWHa-eg
posted by rainy at 11:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Most people, politicians included, don't know what to do when confronted with the prospect of shaking hands with a paralyzed person. But when Bill Clinton realized I couldn't shake his offered hand, he picked up my hand and kissed it instead without missing a beat. Very smooth.

(I went home and had my hand sanitized for my protection.)
posted by Soliloquy at 11:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [63 favorites]


Really nothing like Rwanda.

It's like Rwanda in the sense that it's become zero-sum territory. If there is a military victory in Syria, then it's basically pick one or more of redraw the borders, ethnic cleansing or genocide for the most obvious losers.
posted by holgate at 11:13 PM on September 29, 2016


Finally caught up (sorry to all the posts I skimmed over)! A few thoughts after catching up on the day's news:

1. Just realized, beyond the surface level idiocy of trying to earn extra brownie points for referring to Clinton as "Secretary" during the debate, this is also following months of public speeches where he's been referring to her as "Crooked Hillary" at every chance he gets.

2. For the Whitewater noobs: One crazy factoid that I hadn't noticed when history was happening in real time: The initial Whitewater attack dog, L. Jean Lewis, was later rewarded for her efforts by GWB with an appointment as Chief of Staff for the Pentagon Inspector General. Here, she was on the other end of government corruption investigations by thwarting off inquisitions about Halliburton's no-bid contracts.

3. Question to legal experts: If Trump's charity is found to be not certified, would that have any bearing on the pay-to-play allegations with the charity's donation to the Florida Attorney General?
posted by p3t3 at 11:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Stick 'em on the Jeopardy set and let Alex Trebeck at them.

Jeopardy!, pshaw. I've said, long before the current presidential campaign, that presidential candidates should be required to appear on Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?

I may be in the minority among American voters, but I do prefer my leaders to be smarter than the average fifth grader.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 11:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Elitist.
posted by um at 11:46 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


typical liberal elites thinking they are better than "average" fifth grader. fifth graders are not average!
posted by rainy at 11:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think Trump has some charisma, and good delivery of lines at times (which is a small thing but small things can be very important). But that's not the reason he's done so well in the campaign. Most of the reason is that he can attack people without seeming mean and he has a wide arsenal of how to attack people:

We could not possibly see things more differently. I never even was interested enough to watch his TV show. He's Sara Palin without the charm.
posted by bongo_x at 11:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


I've never seen his TV show, or anything of him before he won the nomination. I don't think he has charm at all (neither did Palin), he has some charisma and entertainer's touch, a not-bad communicator, at times. If he was more knowledgeable and had some empathy, he'd be a formidable politician. I couldn't bear watching Palin even for half a minute -- the stupidity at all levels was overwhelming, zero charm, but the line delivery was strangely similar to Trump. The similarity is that they can get totally bogged down in a sentence and then very quickly switch gears and smoothly transition into a new one without losing a beat.

The difference between them is that Palin is dumber, doesn't have the same knack for attacking people as I mentioned above, and has real conservative religious bona fides (albeit fundamentally fake if that makes sense), and Trump is more confident.

It makes a lot of sense that they became chummy. I'm really curious why she didn't become a surrogate. Maybe the campaign thought she is too risky? Maybe they did research and she's no longer beloved by evangelicals whatsoever? It's probably something else and something weird, and we'll find out eventually.
posted by rainy at 12:13 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm really curious why she didn't become a surrogate. Maybe the campaign thought she is too risky?

She seemed really unhinged at the speech where she endorsed Trump. Like unhinged even for Palin. It's scary if you're too unhinged for Donald Trump.
posted by Justinian at 12:21 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


I think she'd do just fine now, Trump has lowered the bar for "unhinged" quite a bit since then.
posted by mmoncur at 12:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


Maybe the campaign thought she is too risky?

The last thing I heard out of her was some rambling about a month ago on immigration. Maybe he tired of her incoherence. It also was around the time when the Trump campaign was getting new blood in management. The newcomers could have had a part in her diminishing role. Using phrases like "wishy-washy positions" & "massive disappointment" I am sure did not help things either.

Trump Offers Jaw Droppingly Dumb Reason Why Sarah Palin Wasn’t Invited To GOP Convention
Wall Street Journal
Aug 25, 2016
posted by lampshade at 12:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Let's not rule out the possibility that he's too sexist to want to have her as a main surrogate.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:31 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


He doesn't need another female surrogate--he already has McEnany, Pierson, Hughes, and Conway.
posted by xyzzy at 2:08 AM on September 30, 2016


Those are underlings. He'd have to treat Palin as an equal
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:11 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Here's Biden talking about tax.
More specifically about how insane it is for a presidential candidate to brag about not paying taxes.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:45 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


Johnny Wallflower: "I've almost forgotten that there is a Metafilter outside of the election threads.

Some of us are working really hard to provide a light counterpoint to this dreary election season. Come up for air once in a while ;)
"

Yeah, there's no way that "happy, fun" is going to appeal to me right now. I'd just start worrying that President Trump would ban puppies and baby ducks. I haven't watched a movie or TV show in a month now because I just can't enjoy them. November can't come fast enough.
posted by octothorpe at 3:48 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Just this guy, y'know: "Here's Biden talking about tax.
More specifically about how insane it is for a presidential candidate to brag about not paying taxes.
"

I love when Joe gets irate.
posted by octothorpe at 3:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


I wish Clinton would have said that during the debate. It might have been an actual "Surely this...." moment, as it would have gotten massive airtime afterwards.
posted by papercake at 3:57 AM on September 30, 2016


RE: Palin. He doesn't want anyone who will steal focus. She's too much a media creation and media craver like him.
posted by chris24 at 4:02 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I can't think about original Kirk w/o thinking of a story from somebody who went to McGill and knew somebody who went to school with Shatner, sat behind him, and observed that he had very large zits on the back of the neck.

And you see how this relates to the election is nah I got nothing.
posted by angrycat at 4:14 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


So the Republican nominee is tweeting at 5am (after tweeting through the night) to check out someone's sextape.

@realDonaldTrump: Did Crooked Hillary help disgusting (check out sex tape and past) Alicia M become a U.S. citizen so she could use her in the debate?

Way to prolong the story!
posted by chris24 at 4:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [35 favorites]


In the previous thread I asked around if anyone had experience with how Hillary does in Town Hall formats, and if this will be a good opportunity for her to show the side of her that combats the criticisms of her personality. I just read the link in this comment and I encourage anyone who feels as I do to read it.

Not only does it sound like she'll do great, but there is no way Trump will learn anything from the first debate to take to this. I'll be in Korea for the next debate so I unfortunately can't see it live, but I'm very much looking forward to it now!
posted by like_neon at 4:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


That is truly disgusting, chris24. Trump is such a scumbag.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:38 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


SETTING: SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE - THE TOWN HALL ONE

Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump have been answering questions for nearly an hour, each in their own signature style of answers and word salad nonsense, respectively. A young man, noticeably dressed down for the event wearing a red t-shirt and blue jeans, stands for his turn to speak. Trump is visibly surprised and alarmed at his presence.

YOUNG MAN: "Town hall's over, Donald. Sorry, folks."

TRUMP: "How did you get past my security outside?"

YOUNG MAN: "There's a matter we need to talk about."

TRUMP: "Yeah. Money, right? Well, forget it."

YOUNG MAN: "No. Not money." He speaks slowly and deliberately. "Gray's. Sports. Almanac."

TRUMP: "You heard him, folks. Town hall's over."

[SCENE]
posted by Servo5678 at 4:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]




Losing a debate to a woman seems have sent Trump off the deep end.
posted by octothorpe at 4:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [23 favorites]


New post debate poll of Florida.

Clinton 46
Trump 42
Johnson 7

Plus new polls in Mi and NH, both Clinton +7.
posted by chris24 at 4:55 AM on September 30, 2016 [27 favorites]


Trump on twitter: "Using Alicia M in the debate as a paragon of virtue just shows that Crooked Hillary suffers from BAD JUDGEMENT! "

Umm, does he not realize what's going on here? Clinton didn't use her as a Paragon of Virtue, she used her as an example of Trump mistreating women. Clinton isn't nominating Alicia M. for Secretary of State. He's doubling down on mistreatment of women by saying she somehow deserved it.

I really think nobody is managing his campaign at all and we're watching him implode right now.
posted by mmoncur at 4:56 AM on September 30, 2016 [74 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: Did Crooked Hillary help disgusting (check out sex tape and past) Alicia M become a U.S. citizen so she could use her in the debate?

Every time he does this I feel like my heart is being stabbed again. That there are people out there, that will be cheering their president for going after and showing that person (in this case bitch) who is the boss is just heartbreaking.

Trump is a horrible human being but the worst thing about him is being shown so bluntly just how many people out there in the world support being so horrible.
posted by Jalliah at 5:00 AM on September 30, 2016 [59 favorites]


I really think nobody is managing his campaign at all and we're watching him implode right now.

I think it's actually evidence of someone specific managing his campaign: Roger Ailes. He can't get his revenge on Gretchen Carlson or Megyn Kelly or any other accusers, so this is his chance to lash out at a beautiful woman and try and humiliate her, take her down a peg or two. It's not hard to imagine him and Trump spending the night popping uppers and washing them down with vodka, passing the phone back and forth to see what fresh hell they can come up with.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:01 AM on September 30, 2016 [26 favorites]


So this! His misogyny runs so so deep that when someone simply says "It's terrible to call a woman Miss Piggy" his instinct is to shout "She's a SLUT, I can call her whatever I want. And furthermore, YOU show bad judgement for defending a SLUT!"

I am so close to tears to think that 40% of the country thinks this man is fit for presidency.
posted by like_neon at 5:02 AM on September 30, 2016 [138 favorites]




That's funny, because there are a few minor "Sources within Trump's campaign say" articles out there, but right now, 90% of the negative articles about Trump begin with the words "Trump Says".
posted by mmoncur at 5:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [28 favorites]


Unfortunately Team Trump's sleaze tactics appear to be paying at least some dividends. During their 7 am news summary, NPR noted that reporters asked Clinton about her husband's affairs three times, with Clinton declining to comment each time (and, like, way to go, intrepid reporters, she's sure to change her mind the third time you asked.

By mentioning that they weren't going to mention it, Team Trump got the so-called "liberal media" to mention it for them, because it's "out there." Feh.
posted by Gelatin at 5:08 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]




I really think nobody is managing his campaign at all and we're watching him implode right now.

Sadly I'm not so sure that his current take isn't supported by at least some people in the campaign. He is saying exactly the things the right wing media is say and the exact things his supporters are saying. I just got reading an article about how his rally goers don't think his Miss Universe is a big deal and that the liberal media has it all wrong.

We've been told several times that he spends a lot of time reading media about himself and he a fan of alt right media. He has Briebart right in the room with him. He's saying what Briebart is posting.

My question is a chicken and egg one. Who is leading? Is Trump sayng what he wants and the media follows along or is it the other way around. Personally I think it's both. They're feeding off each other right now. Sometimes it's Trump but sometimes it seems that Trump suddenly starts bleating about stuff that appears in the media first.

If I had the time I'd look into tracking the relationship back and forth but that would pretty much be a full time job.
posted by Jalliah at 5:09 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, the source for most of these scandals is Trump's own goddamn mouth, or video footage of him doing and saying things. He'd done plenty to disqualify and incriminate himself all on his own.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:11 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


By mentioning that they weren't going to mention it, Team Trump got the so-called "liberal media" to mention it for them, because it's "out there." Feh.

The media are the only people more easily baited than Trump. It baffles me that he's seen as some kind of master manipulator for being able to generate free publicity and get the media to talk about what he wants them to; they're so easy to lead, they might as well have rings through their noses.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


FYI, Machado hasn't done porn and doesn't have a sex tape. Snopes
posted by chris24 at 5:24 AM on September 30, 2016 [50 favorites]


Feh. Pedantic fact-checking.
posted by farlukar at 5:29 AM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


All he cares about - all he appears to care about - is winning by manipulating people, and the 'truth' or 'facts' are secondary. Which sounds like an insult, but it's the only way to win in politics - by constantly maniuplating and twisting narratives and groups of people. It can be used so easily for progressive causes! ... If the Left wants to win, they need to seize the power of narratives, not rely on some base conception of 'facts'.

OK, first: All the ughs in the world to this. Just had to get that out of the way.

Second: I would say that what the Clinton campaign is doing now with Alicia Machado is indeed seizing the power of narrative, but doing so in conjunction with facts. As for me, that's my preferred methodology for winning, and I'm not sure why you're so insistent that we can only have FACTS or WINNING.

Truth matters, not everything is relative, and for godssake don't we understand yet that the ends don't always justify the means?
posted by alleycat01 at 5:43 AM on September 30, 2016 [30 favorites]


Pretty good trolling by that Luntz guy:
‏@FrankLuntz : Are online polls scientific?
posted by klarck at 5:47 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


We'll find out Kellyanne is gone around four or five this afternoon, I would almost put money on it.
posted by Tevin at 5:47 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's not hard to imagine him and Trump spending the night popping uppers and washing them down with vodka, passing the phone back and forth to see what fresh hell they can come up with.
According to recent accounts, all Ailes has been capable of is recounting political war stories and re-litigating the loss of Fox News to the point that Giuliani had to take over debate prep and get Ailes out of there. Trump already has an impressive record of maligning, abusing, and mistreating women; I see no reason whatsoever to attribute the most recent attacks to a slug whose fantasies probably include subjugating and humiliating slave women on a desert barge.
posted by xyzzy at 5:48 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


If I were a journalist I'd just spend the day calling Trump's evangelical supporters asking if they've seen Alicia Machado's sex tape (Twitter)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:48 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Well his latest Machado tweets are hitting news articles as we speak. I do have to say that his supporters are helping him so much as well. They're right on the ball with the she's 'a porno slut, Hilary has no judgement' messaging. Of course Donald is okay to do whatever he wants and not have his fitness questioned because emails, emails, emails.

They really and truly are convinced that going after Machado like this is a winning strategy and are cheering him on big time.

Trump has released this big wave of festering misogynist pus upon the world. It's scary.
posted by Jalliah at 5:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


This is a stark illustration of how fundamentally unserious, hypocritical, and downright vengeful modern religious conservatism is in this country. They're supporting a candidate, many if not most enthusiastically, who is exhorting voters to check out a fake sex tape. And they're doing it in opposition to a former Sunday school teacher. They won't be ashamed about it, obvs, and the NeverTrumpers and other conservatives will continue to defend them as honest and virtuous and sincere.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [72 favorites]


Is there anything anyone can do to support Alicia right now? She must be going through hell with the trolls and the media. I'm sure the Clinton team talked to her about what might happen, but that doesn't mean it's not pretty awful for her. I just want to thank her and make sure she's safe and happy.
posted by like_neon at 5:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [28 favorites]


I guess 3 AM tweets are a good way to distract everyone from Cuba, taxes and the foundation.
posted by maudlin at 5:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


(5AM tweets, actually)
posted by maudlin at 5:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sending 5AM tweets about fake sex tapes to baskets of deplorables in order to deflect criticism of being deplorable? SAD!
posted by localhuman at 5:56 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


Between 3:20 and 5:30am there were 4 tweets.
posted by chris24 at 5:56 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


So it looks like the second debate prep is going swimmingly for Donald. Totally focused.
posted by JoeZydeco at 5:57 AM on September 30, 2016 [22 favorites]


Between 3:20 and 5:30am there were 4 tweets.

You've got to have stamina.
posted by dis_integration at 5:57 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


Or amphetamines.
posted by chris24 at 5:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [35 favorites]


As an aside if anyone is feeling really down with the big blurg of sexism and misogyny happening right now I recommend watching the new show 'Pitch'. I just watched the second episode while reading this thread and it made me feel a whole lot better. Mostly it made me feel hope because this show is dealing with it head on and it's pretty awesome. Awesome to see these issues coming out in a mainstream show and it's about baseball! Also in the latest episode of Horror Story they used gaslighting as a minor plot point. "Don't you gaslight me!" I let out a 'woo' when I heard it.
posted by Jalliah at 5:59 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]




I'll tell you what: I used to feel somewhat guilty about my love of remaining in my liberal bubble. I lived in a rural midatlantic area for a while and hated it and the little bleeding heart voice in my head has always told me that really that's just because I'm actually a big hypocrite and I don't like people who are different from me, and that's bad and I should feel bad. Welp, I'm here to say that if you are supporting this literal monster, you are different from me and I don't like you and if I can help it I do not want to live amongst a critical mass of you. This isn't about whether we disagree about what the marginal tax rate should be or that you're Christian and I'm not. This is about basic human rights--not even the extended remix like health care and housing, but the really superduper basic shit like life and liberty and granting a baseline of dignity and respect to your fellow humans.

Liberal Bubble 4ever. For the sake of my own self-care and self-preservation.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:04 AM on September 30, 2016 [90 favorites]


Stick 'em on the Jeopardy set and let Alex Trebeck at them.

"What is Aleppo?"

"Correct for four hundred!"
posted by EarBucket at 6:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


Between 3:20 and 5:30am there were 4 tweets.

Is there seriously any questions about what Donny's Little Helpers are? He thinks he's still teetotal because he totes has a prescription for them from Dr. Feelgood and he neeeeds them to keep his svelt waistline, but dude is popping uppers like candy.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:09 AM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


And how much you wan to bet Donald has made plenty of "sex tapes" of his conquests?
posted by spitbull at 6:09 AM on September 30, 2016


I've been on the "he's a speed freak" train for months!
posted by spitbull at 6:10 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


And how much you wan to bet Donald has made plenty of "sex tapes" of his conquests?

Donald really just likes to watch.
posted by PenDevil at 6:12 AM on September 30, 2016


I've been on the "he's a speed freak" train for months!

*fist bump* Me too. It's the Occam's Razor that explains Trump's Razor.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:14 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]




That's probably why he's so into Putin - he's hooked up with the post-war Pervitin stash that the Red Army brought back from Berlin.

The best Nazi drugs! The best!
posted by Devonian at 6:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


crooked hillary was wrong, what i did before was not sexist

[cracks fingers]

now let me REALLY show you sexist
posted by Tevin at 6:19 AM on September 30, 2016 [38 favorites]


*fist bump* Me too. It's the Occam's Razor that explains Trump's Razor.

I haven't been on that train. The train is getting closer to picking me up though. One of the main things keeping me from jump on board is the lack of people who have had contact with him saying anything about it. Or any campaign leaks. I suppose he could be super good at keeping it secret, but someone must have seen something and some time?

I dunno. It would explain a lot.
posted by Jalliah at 6:21 AM on September 30, 2016


Direct link To 538's latest. (What is with you people linking to tweets?)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:22 AM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


The more he doubles and triples down on Machado and how right he feels he was to denigrate her in the first place, the more sure I am that one of his own priorities at the next debate will be to "set the record straight" about her, and quadruple down with it. Especially since the more people retweet and call attention to it, the more he thinks his argument is winning.

He's exclusively talking to people who won't talk back to him (Hannity and other friendly media) or that he doesn't have to hear when they do (Twitter) - playing to his crowd and getting positive feedback for it. If the first person to pop this next hate bubble has to be Hillary on national TV with everyone watching, well, I for one am totally cool with it.
posted by Mchelly at 6:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]




CHT- at this point I personally am trying to give 538 fewer page views because their model is now so swingy as to be basically hysterical
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:26 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


One of the main things keeping me from jump on board is the lack of people who have had contact with him saying anything about it.

He hides the things he's ashamed of. He does his hair himself and won't let anyone else see; he's always wearing a suit jacket. His "high energy" and virility are so central to his fucked up sense of self that having his chemical dependency exposed would result in intolerable narcissistic injury.

I don't doubt his pills are as secret as his hair routine.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:28 AM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


@KagroX :
He totally didn't make tapes of models he invited into his specially-equipped spare bikini changing rooms at Perv-a-Lago. So that's good.

He wired Perv-a-Lago to surveil the phones in every room, and set aside one special room for models to change bikinis in. But don't worry!


JFC..

So basically it's just one more thing that Hilary's campaign gets to chose from. It appears that there is so much they may have a hard time deciding what to use.
posted by Jalliah at 6:29 AM on September 30, 2016


But, seriously, if you know much about speed...that dude is on speed, and has been, for a long, long time.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:29 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


A moment of levity from The New Yorker
also, > (What is with you people linking to tweets?)
posted by farlukar at 6:30 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


Direct link To 538's latest. (What is with you people linking to tweets?

Because the interesting thing to me was his commentary not the map.
posted by chris24 at 6:30 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I suppose he could be super good at keeping it secret, but someone must have seen something and some time?

He's an older dude, I'm sure he takes a few different sorts of pills. Who would notice? And there have been rumors. I mean, he has a doctor who is clearly not qualified to do anything but crack open an rx pad and not tell anyone what he writes on it if you comp him enough Buffet tickets. He brags that he only sleeps 4 hours a night. He's erratic, manic, shouty, and runs full bore with every bad idea that pops into his head.

Don't do drugs, kids. Especially speed. Speed turns you into an asshole.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:31 AM on September 30, 2016 [21 favorites]


If your livelihood depended on trump's continued success would you rat out the one fact that would surely destroy his candidacy?

Long term speed freaks with good captive doctors at their disposal can keep it quite discreet. Two pills a day, and if you're always speeding who can tell?

However his dose was seriously decreased at the debate.

His debate performance screamed "addict keeps it together for the job interview" to me.

The alternate theory is that he is high on the smell of his own gold-plated farts, that narcissism alone explains his constant manias and rages and obsessiveness.

Either way, the subject of his erratic behavior is his kryptonite and Lex Luthor just introduced it at the end of the debate in the form of Ms. Machado.

Read a comment elsewhere suggesting Hillary is hunting high and low for a soccer mom Trump has insulted for the next big debate reveal.
posted by spitbull at 6:31 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Being a Clinton oppo researcher must be so fulfilling. Too often you dig something up and it bounces off the wrong part of the news cycle, or the target hunkers down and waits it out, or it otherwise glances off harmlessly and you wonder why you bother. It must be a real joy to throw a bomb at someone and watch them poke at it for days on end.
posted by jackbishop at 6:33 AM on September 30, 2016 [38 favorites]


Don't do drugs, kids. Especially speed. Speed turns you into an asshole.

Speed shills.
posted by spitbull at 6:35 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Read a comment elsewhere suggesting Hillary is hunting high and low for a soccer mom Trump has insulted for the next big debate reveal.

Raise your hand if you've ever been personally victimized by Regina Geo... Donald Trump.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:35 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Maybe it's speed, maybe it isn't. There are those who whisper rumors of Ibogaine rearing its ugly head on the American political scene again.
posted by delfin at 6:36 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


if you believe something strongly you have a moral/personal duty to say that thing as often and as loudly as possible.

Thus, the Timecube guy.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:36 AM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


it's not 'bullying' to say what you believe as loudly and as pointedly as possible.

Thus, the Holocaust.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:37 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


I'll stipulate to "addictive stimulant drug." "Speed" is shorthand.

You can't hide that shit forever though. Most Americans have seen addiction up close and personal at some point.

Howard Dean on TV right now maintaining his cocaine argument in the face of whithering media faux disgust.

I could accept coke as the answer except that's much harder to disguise and illegal. My money is on a "legal" medical habit.
posted by spitbull at 6:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


VOICEOVER: It's 3am and and your children are safe and asleep. But there's a phone in the White House and it's tweeting. Something's happening in the world. Your vote will decide who will send that tweet; whether it's someone who already knows how to tell a woman to lose weight, someone who knows the best words, someone knows how the system is rigged. It's 3am and and your children are safe and asleep, who do you want sending that tweet?
posted by peeedro at 6:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]




I found this interesting...

The Week: Donald Trump's autocratic infrastructure nationalism
one theme he has consistently stuck to is that he'll Make America Great Again by rebuilding its allegedly crumbling infrastructure. During the first presidential debate, he once again dissed America's roads, bridges, and airports, noting that when "you come into LAX or LaGuardia or JFK…. from Dubai, Qatar, and China," it seems like you've come to a "Third World country."

But the countries Trump is praising as models for a better America are all autocracies that have made a hash of things.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


His debate performance screamed "addict keeps it together for the job interview" to me.

So you're saying that the monday debate performance was just a presidential version of this?
posted by peeedro at 6:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Howard Dean on TV right now maintaining his cocaine argument in the face of whithering media faux disgust.

They're just mad because they wish they were allowed to say it themselves. Someone needs to conjecture a list of antibiotics Clinton is on so they can set up a false equivalence.
posted by jackbishop at 6:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ha peedro I was having a similar thought about "the 4am tweetstorm." Yeah that would be a hilarious ad. I think it's time for Hillary to use humorous mockery more in general. It worked great for her at the debate. And it makes him lash out like a freak. He cannot handle being laughed at, at all.

And the late night hour of his Machado tweets is now a subject for TV commentary. Ha ha.
posted by spitbull at 6:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Don't do drugs, kids. Especially speed. Speed turns you into an asshole.

In my perfect world, DARE gets resurrected fifteen years from now, only now it's focused on steering kids away from prescription opiate abuse and recreational amphetamines. The day they talk about speed, it's just a video montage of Ellen Burstyn grinding her teeth and freaking out in the red dress from Requiem, and Donald's first debate performance. The room is so horrified that there are angry parent phone calls to the superintendant later in the afternoon.
posted by Mayor West at 6:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump's Mirror strikes again. This is from Breitbart:
Donald Trump addressed a packed house at a rally in Bedford, New Hampshire Thursday afternoon where he blasted Hillary Clinton, whom he said is “there for only one reason: to protect her donors and take their money.”

“Hillary Clinton is an insider fighting only for herself and her donors. I’m an outsider fighting for you,” Trump said, contrasting himself with his rival for the presidency.

“Follow the money,” he continued, hitting on a theme that has been central to his criticism of Clinton.
That's a very interesting statement. Clinton is only running to protect her donors and make money. I don't think she has ever been accused of that before. It does bring up the question of why Donald is running, however, and I guarentee it isn't because he is fighting for the little guys out there.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:51 AM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


I also so wish and hope the HRC team has a comeback ready for the next time Donald riffs on how bad everything is in America that is something like "Tell us, Donald, is there anything you think is good about America right now?" or better "Why do you always run down America like that?"
posted by spitbull at 6:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Thus, the Holocaust.

surely, thus
posted by delfin at 6:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


And the late night hour of his Machado tweets is now a subject for TV commentary. Ha ha.

I didn't notice when I first looked but yeah so many headlines are 'overnight, early morning, 3 am tweetstorm'. ha ha indeed.

I'm betting he's sitting there all smug. "See the media they are covering my tweets. Sucess! I'm still winning."


(and okay I'm getting closer to jumping on the' speed freak' train now)
posted by Jalliah at 6:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Somebody very close to Hillary once said, "There's nothing wrong with America that can't be fixed by what's right with America." That's probably the best retort to Trump's doom and gloom.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:56 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


For the Hamilton fans: @chrislhayes: Tweet less; Sleep more
posted by Roommate at 6:57 AM on September 30, 2016 [33 favorites]



Yes I'm just saying might as well straight up call him unpatriotic to get the predictable freak out from him.
posted by spitbull at 6:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Chicago Tribune just endorsed Gary Johnson. This does not appear to be a hoax or a joke, and it is not April 1st.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


What is Chicago?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:00 AM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


All of them.
posted by spitbull at 7:01 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


tronc
posted by Tevin at 7:03 AM on September 30, 2016 [27 favorites]


@RealDonaldJTrump: There are no sources, they are just made up lies.

BuzzFeed: 6 Times Donald Trump Relied On Unnamed “Sources”
1. When an “extremely credible source” told him that President Obama’s birth certificate was a fraud.

6. When he first heard the news from “sources” that no charges would be brought against Hillary Clinton. "Like I said the system is totally rigged!"
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:05 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sadly I'm not so sure that his current take isn't supported by at least some people in the campaign. He is saying exactly the things the right wing media is say and the exact things his supporters are saying.

But Trump doesn't need his supporters right now. Trump's natural base of support seems to have a hard ceiling of about 40%. Trump needs to reach out beyond that core base of support, and I as much as the deplorables love it, I don't see Trump proving Clinton's point about him being a disgusting misogynist gaining him anyone new.

at this point I personally am trying to give 538 fewer page views because their model is now so swingy as to be basically hysterical

Today Sam Wang predicts Clinton winning 307 EVs, with a win probability of random drift 79%, Bayesian 87%.

This is a stark illustration of how fundamentally unserious, hypocritical, and downright vengeful modern religious conservatism is in this country. They're supporting a candidate, many if not most enthusiastically, who is exhorting voters to check out a fake sex tape. And they're doing it in opposition to a former Sunday school teacher.

It's just adorable that people, especially in the media, still imagine -- or pretend -- that conservative evangelical voters aligning according to their religious, as opposed to their political, beliefs.

In 1980, as today, Jimmy Carter was a genuine, born-again Southern Baptist evangelical Christian, who was so squeaky clean morally that the worst you could say about him was that he gave an interview with Playboy magazine confessing to looking at other women with lust and committing adultery in his heart. And the so-called "moral majority" deserted him in droves to elect Ronald Reagan.

That was 46 years ago.

It's high time the media started seeing whether people walk the walk, rather than just talk the talk, before presenting their views as representative or given in good faith. Their support of Donald Trump should unmask these hypocrites once and for all.
posted by Gelatin at 7:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [78 favorites]


The Tribune was a GOP paper except for its 2008 and 2012 endorsements. They endorsed W in 2004 so I guess maybe they see more than a few similarities between W and Johnson. Anyway it's not a surprise that they didn't endorse Clinton, and yet couldn't bring themselves to endorse Trump. Why not just keep your mouth shut, though (a lesson Johnson could learn too).
posted by dis_integration at 7:08 AM on September 30, 2016


John Podesta: I'm almost @realDonaldTrump's age, so get the urge to get up in the middle of the night, but impt safety tip: don't reach for your phone.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:08 AM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


I'm disgusted by Donald's misogyny but I'm straight up grossed out that he's thinking about sex tapes at 3 in the morning.
posted by like_neon at 7:10 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Charlie Pierce: This Thing Is Nowhere Near Over
Whether he's hired new speechwriters, or his staff simply has found the right dosage, El Caudillo del Mar-A-Lago is dealing out the real thing there—true, classic America First populism. The soaring skyscrapers and gleaming airliners of the mind. The New Jerusalem, which the earliest white American immigrants believed they had crossed the ocean to build on this continent, and which succeeding generations have worked and strived to build within themselves.

Is it all a charlatan's boast? Of course, it is. He can't do any of that stuff if he's also going to ram even more wealth upwards with his preposterous economic program. But he's selling a dream here, and not a con. Is it a narcotic vision bound to fall short of grubby reality? Of course it is. It almost always does. But, for the first time since I've been listening to him, Trump has stumbled into a rich vein of American political history and a rich vein of American political bunkum, both of which have sustained the other ever since the nation was founded.
[...]
Of course, there is a dark side of this brand of populism. All of these golden opportunities are kept from good yeoman America by shadowy forces beyond their control. Of course, it would be absurd for Donald Trump to go all gnomes-of-Zurich anti-Semite on the country. (Besides, he can subcontract that job to his lovely social media schultzstaffel.) But to hear him talk about the "collusion" between the "special interests" and the "corrupt media executives" is to hear echoes of the shiny boots on cobblestones without the inconvenient armbands. He will play that card as readily as he will talk about the new American steel in the spine of the country. This is why he remains the most dangerous presidential candidate of my lifetime.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:12 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


rebent: He finished his answer by saying that it is really, really easy for small groups of people to make a difference. He said that you and 25 of your friends can go downtown and join the party and then suddenly you ARE the local party branch. And your local branch has a national voice. This is what happened with the tea party. If sanders' supporters wanted, they could drastically change the democratic party over the next 10-15 years.

From waay back in April 2016:
While even Bernie Sanders is starting to admit that his chance of winning the Democratic nomination is exceedingly slim, some of his former staff and volunteers have formed a political action committee dedicated to giving the senator “the ability to make real change from the White House.”

Brand New Congress ... is looking ahead to the 2018 midterm elections to “replace Congress all at once” with lawmakers who agree with the Vermont independent’s policy positions. The PAC won’t be able to fully accomplish that goal in 2018, however, since just 468 of the 535 lawmakers in the House and Senate will be up for re-election.

A timeline on the PAC’s website says that it plans to form local search committees to recruit organizers and candidates who are new to politics. (Sanders, for his part, has served in Congress for 26 years.) The PAC says it will codify various progressive policies in a platform that its slate of candidates must support.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:13 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


That was 46 years ago.

Give or take a decade.
posted by octothorpe at 7:17 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


WaPo: Before 6 a.m., Donald Trump proved Hillary Clinton’s point about his temperament
While you were probably still sleeping, the 2016 Republican presidential nominee encouraged all of us to check out a "sex tape" and offered a baseless conspiracy theory about his opponent helping the woman from the alleged sex tape get citizenship so she could take him down.

And in doing so, Donald Trump did everything Hillary Clinton could have hoped he would, drawing out a now-week-long story about Alicia Machado, making things up and — above all — reinforcing all those very real questions about whether he has the temperament to be president.
They have the 3 tweets. Besides "check out the sex tape" which is just mind-boggling, he also accuses Clinton of BAD JUDGEMENT for using Machado as a "paragon of virtue." I am...well...baffled. I can't connect the dots in my mind between Clinton pointing out that Trump called her names and made a big deal about her weight and Trump saying that means Clinton thinks Machado is a paragon of virtue. Is there a link there that I am missing? Are we only supposed to be concerned with women who are virtuous? I mean I'm not even going to get into the question of Ms. Machado's virtue then and now, I don't care, but I do think it is weird that Trump cares so much. I guess in his mind he gets to name call any woman that isn't perfect. Which is exactly why he thinks he can say nasty things about Rosie O'Donnell and we will all be on his side.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [31 favorites]






Howard Dean on TV right now maintaining his cocaine argument in the face of whithering media faux disgust.

I could accept coke as the answer except that's much harder to disguise and illegal. My money is on a "legal" medical habit.


Which is why I question Dean's tactic. I can just see the media blowing off a future revelation with, "See, it wasn't cocaine, it was legally prescribed amphetamines all along, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯".
posted by Gelatin at 7:22 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


As I said a few threads ago, Clinton is playing chess against someone playing flip-the-table.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Dude is STILL TWEETING.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


Can Deutsche Bank even call in Trump's loans? Or does he owe so much money that it's their problem, not his?
posted by whuppy at 7:26 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


a lungful of dragon: I'm no fan of Hillary Clinton, but how she deals with her private life is her own business and no one else's.

Why did Americans care so much about Bill Clinton cheating on his wife? (Quora question)
Asking from a European point of view, it seems the man was brought into a scandal which was disproportionate compared to the moral fault he committed. I'm not saying it wasn't wrong, it's just a private matter after all and it doesn't mean anything about his ability to rule the country.
When the independent probes of Clinton Administration cost nearly $80 million back in the 1990s, I remember a few news stories about how baffled many Europeans were about how much national noise there was on this, and I agreed with the European view.

Digging up old dirt on the Clintons now seems like a stretch, and when it comes from critics on the left, it makes me wonder if their views on birth control are closer to social conservatives. Do personal lives become public if it's about cheating spouses?
posted by filthy light thief at 7:26 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


Is there a link there that I am missing?

I have seen a lot of right-wing comments trying to say this as well. Their explanation (I only calmly asked one of them about this over Twitter) is that Hillary is partnering with someone with a very questionable background (ie this sex tape non story, the accusation of accessory to murder that was never charged), thus it shows Hillary's poor judgement

Obviously this is beyond stupid because

1) These accusations are false or grossly misrepresented and do not take away from the fact Trump said horrible things about this woman

2) Do they really want to play the game of who has better judgement based on who they associate themselves with?
posted by like_neon at 7:26 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


CNN: Donald Trump's last press conference was on July 27. So much for press accessibility. He's limited himself mostly to Fox News and social media for the past two months.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:28 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


The Daily Beast: GOP Blocks Probes Into Trump-Russia Ties
Privately, Republican congressional staff told The Daily Beast that Trump and his aides’ connections to Russian officials and businesses interests haven’t gone unnoticed and are concerning. And GOP lawmakers have reviewed Democrats’ written requests to the FBI that it investigate Trump before they were made public.

But the lawmakers in both chambers have declined to sign on to them. Republicans have no appetite to launch inquiries into their party’s presidential nominee, and they continue to believe the FBI flubbed its investigation into Clinton and her aides, who should have been charged with mishandling government secrets, the staffers said.

Instead Republican lawmakers appear far more interested in probing Hillary Clinton’s use of a private email server, nearly three months after the Justice Department declined to press charges against her or her aides. FBI Director James Comey has been called to testify to Congress three times about the email investigation, and Republicans have launched a separate inquiry into whether the former secretary of State committed perjury when she testified before Congress about her unorthodox communications system.
IOKIYAR
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:28 AM on September 30, 2016 [32 favorites]


They have the 3 tweets. Besides "check out the sex tape" which is just mind-boggling, he also accuses Clinton of BAD JUDGEMENT for using Machado as a "paragon of virtue." I am...well...baffled. I can't connect the dots in my mind between Clinton pointing out that Trump called her names and made a big deal about her weight and Trump saying that means Clinton thinks Machado is a paragon of virtue. Is there a link there that I am missing?

This is rarely known, previously only theoretical political strategy of double-down double-downing; at this point the links between things are so tortured that they either break reality or the candidate.
posted by nubs at 7:32 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump/Pence 2016: CHECK OUT THE SEX TAPE!

The bumper stickers write themselves now.
posted by spitbull at 7:34 AM on September 30, 2016 [40 favorites]


Perhaps Trump thinks retweets count as endorsements.
posted by drezdn at 7:36 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump/Pence 2016: CHECK OUT THE SEX TAPE!

I cannot describe the depths of my hate for you right now, spitbull.
posted by Etrigan at 7:36 AM on September 30, 2016 [35 favorites]


WaPo: The Daily 202: This week was full of reality checks for Trump’s campaign
-- The overall sentiment of media coverage, which had been trending more positive for Trump ahead of the debate, has shifted back to become predominantly negative. The GOP nominee has received three times the amount of coverage that Clinton has since Monday, political scientist John Sides tabulates on his Monkey Cage blog. “Clinton’s coverage since the debate has been much more positive than Trump’s and more positive than she has typically received. Indeed, this has been the most positive coverage she’s received since June.”[...]

-- Danger, Will Robinson: The format for the second debate could be terrible for Trump. All of the aforementioned acrobatics distract from the fact that the next debate is only ten days away. And it’s unclear whether Trump is willing to acknowledge the sheer amount of prep work he must do to rectify his performance before then.

Paul Waldman on Plum Line argues that the town-hall style of the second debate more naturally plays into Clinton’s strengths: “The questions will be asked by ordinary citizens, and are much less predictable than those asked by a moderator or panel: While they’re almost always substantive, they often raise issues that haven’t been discussed much in the campaign, and can do so from unusual angles. That favors a candidate whose understanding of policy is not only deep but broad.” Moreover, Trump is not accustomed to the town-hall style and it could be awkward if he’s chomping at the bit to retaliate against Clinton and hit harder than he did the first time. Overcompensation seems inevitable. “Just picture the cameras picking up the shocked and disgusted faces of women as he goes after Hillary for Bill’s infidelity, or digs in on his Machado attack,” Waldman writes.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:37 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's ironic that Ailes literally invented the town hall for Nixon and his format will undoubtedly cause Trump to self-immolate in a volcano of cheese dust and verbal diarrhea.
posted by xyzzy at 7:39 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


At this point, if Hillary wins, the right is going to launch an investigation into how Clinton let Trump win the nomination.
posted by drezdn at 7:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [66 favorites]


'...something like "Tell us, Donald, is there anything you think is good about America right now?" or better "Why do you always run down America like that?"'

This is just the sort of question that comes up in those town halls. Bet dollars to donuts you'll hear it next week.
posted by klarck at 7:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


IOKIYAR is there nothing you can't excuse?

Will it take something like evidence that Trump is leaking his intelligence briefings to Putin to get the Republican party to repudiate him?
posted by vuron at 7:44 AM on September 30, 2016


RE: Palin. He doesn't want anyone who will steal focus. She's too much a media creation and media craver like him.
posted by chris24 at 7:02 AM on September 30

I think that is probably the reason however there are two other possible reasons.

1.) Sarah Palin might not have wanted to work for Trump for free as he seems to expect most of his people to do. I know she loves speaking to crowds but she may have decided it wasn't worth the effort and the time away from her family.

2) She had to leave the campaign trail when her husband got into a snowmobile accident-- serious enough to be hospitalized. Then she herself fell and hit her head reportedly while hiking. There are rumors of heavy drinking. She might not have wanted to face the press.


At this point, if Hillary wins, the right is going to launch an investigation into how Clinton let Trump win the nomination.

posted by drezdn at 10:40 AM on September 30

I actually guffawed. Stop making this...so entertaining. I need to get some work done!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:47 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


MotherJones: Trump's Huge Conflict of Interest With a Big Foreign Bank Keeps Getting Worse
Deutsche Bank is in crisis. It holds more than $300 million in Trump's debt. That's a problem
The potential conflicts of interest are scary.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:48 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


Mrs. Betty Bowers: "Chicago Tribune endorses Gary Johnson, a candidate who thinks Chicago is in . . . well, he's not exactly sure."
posted by dnash at 7:51 AM on September 30, 2016 [20 favorites]


SHIMMY IF YOU'RE WITH HER
posted by lydhre at 7:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [31 favorites]


Great job, tronc!
posted by drezdn at 7:53 AM on September 30, 2016


IOKIYAR is there nothing you can't excuse?

Excuse? When the Bush administration got caught torturing prisoners, Republicans began defending the practice, a ten-plus year history of shame that continues with Trump endorsing it.
posted by Gelatin at 7:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump/Pence 2016: CHECK OUT THE SEX TAPE!

It's 2016. The memes have become sentient and are running for office. May god have mercy on our souls.
posted by phunniemee at 7:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]



At this point, if Hillary wins, the right is going to launch an investigation into how Clinton let Trump win the nomination.


"I have a feeling I'll get blamed for everything!"

"Why not?"

"Yeah, why not."
posted by zutalors! at 7:55 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


Greg Sargent: Trump’s ‘disgusting’ tweet about Alicia Machado got one thing right. It isn’t what he thinks.
What Trump’s tweet really says is that Machado’s effort to secure the vote for herself is suspect, because Clinton may have helped smooth that process, to Clinton’s own benefit. This is a version of the longtime charge that Democrats only want to create a path to citizenship for Latino immigrants in order to pad the voter rolls in their favor, and surely this will thrill Trumpist voters who are very upset about the ways the country is rigged in favor of various minority groups.

But the merits of that argument aside, it is politically awful for Trump — given his need to expand his appeal — to be questioning this effort at political integration by a former Latina beauty queen who is publicly urging more Latinos to participate in the election and is publicly declaring her pride at becoming a U.S. citizen who can now exercise her right to vote.

The Clinton campaign has not yet commented. But it’s unclear how Clinton might have done this, if she had wanted to. Immigration attorney David Leopold tells me it’s conceivable but highly unlikely that the Clinton campaign encouraged Machado to become a citizen, but even so, that there’s no way any telephone calls, even if they had been made, would succeed in speeding the process. And in any case, Leopold notes, this process could take anywhere from five months to a year, so Clinton would have had to get involved many months ago. “It’s clear Trump has no idea how the citizenship process works,” Leopold says.

The ultimate irony of the whole tale is that the person who may have done the most to drive Machado to become a U.S. citizen and secure the vote for herself is one Donald J. Trump. And if the preliminary evidence proves to be right, Trump is driving a lot more Latinos to vote in this election, too.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [32 favorites]


I remember when Trump faffed about with the Khan stuff, and how unsettling it was to even his supporters. How did he learn nothing from that? He's such an ignorant sleazy asshole and I can't believe people can happily support him.
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:59 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


They have the 3 tweets. Besides "check out the sex tape" which is just mind-boggling, he also accuses Clinton of BAD JUDGEMENT for using Machado as a "paragon of virtue." I am...well...baffled. I can't connect the dots in my mind between Clinton pointing out that Trump called her names and made a big deal about her weight and Trump saying that means Clinton thinks Machado is a paragon of virtue. Is there a link there that I am missing? Are we only supposed to be concerned with women who are virtuous?

I see three different ways of making sense of Trump's statements.

The first is that Trump wants attention on Trump, and Trump's advisors think Trump is better off fighting a campaign on personality than on policy. If Trump draws attention to himself without getting into policy -- and 'check out the sex tape' is hardly a policy position -- he invites Clinton to attack him on, effectively, his home turf of tabloid scandals: two people saying bad things about each other. That lets him continue to make vague policy pronouncements relatively unchallenged ('make America great again, generally speaking'). I also think that if this is his strategy, either by plan or by instinct, it's a failing one, since Secretary Clinton has been attacked in the press for the last three decades. She has just as much experience with this as he does -- and she's weathered it all.

The second is that, to make 'a paragon of virtue' make sense, you have to put yourself in Trump's head for a second. I think he might truly believe that the person at fault was Machado, and that Trump virtuously spoke to the truth of the situation when he called her fat -- that she, not he, threw the first stone. If Machado is to blame [she isn't; Trump is - but imagine you're Trump], then Clinton came onstage and blamed Trump for something that, in Trump's eyes, Machado did. Pointing out other purported things she did isn't a refutation, it's Trump saying 'and look at all the other things she did in addition to her crime of gaining weight.' Trump is effectively saying 'she was asking to get called fat when she put on weight; I'm not to blame -- she is.' And from there you get to 'because I, Trump, was right to call her fat, Clinton displayed bad judgement in blaming me for her crime.'

The third is that it doesn't actually make sense and there's no link but Trump thinks there's value in attacking someone who JUST HAPPENS to be an immigrant to get his base of voters fired up and willing to get out and vote -- he's essentially saying 'immigrants are terrible,' which is terrible. The conspiracy-mongering lie that Clinton somehow got Machado her immigration paperwork sorted plays into this.

The 'missing link' is 'Trump is a terrible person' -- we just don't know exactly how he's terrible in this precise situation, exactly. Although I wouldn't rule out 'all of the above.'
posted by cjelli at 8:01 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


The Chicago Tribune just endorsed Gary Johnson. This does not appear to be a hoax or a joke, and it is not April 1st.

So did the Detroit News.
posted by still_wears_a_hat at 8:02 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Machado's response on Instagram.

English translation:

machadooficial "The Republican candidate and his campaign team are again generating attacks, insults and trying to revive slanders and false accusations about my life. All this in order to intimidate, humiliate me and desequilibrarme again. The attacks that have emerged are slanders and cheap lies generated with bad intentions, which have no foundation that have been spread by sensationalist media. This, of course, is not the first time that I face such a situation. through their hate campaign, the Republican candidate insists on discrediting and demoralize a woman, which is definitely one of the most terrifying features. with this, seeking to distract attention from their real problems and its inability to pretend to be the leader of this great country.
When was a young girl, the now candidate, humiliated me, he insulted me publicly disrespected me, as he usually did privately in the cruelest way. As this happened to me, it is clear through the years, that their actions and behavior have been repeated with other women for decades. Therefore, I will keep standing, sharing my story, my absolute support Mrs. Clinton on behalf of women, my sisters, aunts, grandmothers, cousins, friends and female community. My Latin and in general, I want to thank all the support, love and respect, my career, my person as a human being and my family. I became a citizen of this great country because my daughter was born here and because I wanted to exercise my rights, including voting.

I will continue standing firm in my lived experience as Miss Universe and you with me supporting me. I've been so pleased with many kind words, for so much love. I'm focusing on my busy career, in my work as mother and I will continue taking positive steps for the Latino community, I will continue as activist for women's rights and respect we deserve. I appreciate all your love and all your support again, thanks. "Thousands of blessings.

My personal take: she's awesome.
posted by Tevin at 8:03 AM on September 30, 2016 [94 favorites]




I just realized: this is the first time I can remember Trump exhorting his supporters to use an internet resource for anything other than checking Twitter. Meanwhile, Hilary actually converted her entire web presence into a fact-checker and policy-debriefer for the debates, and opened her remarks with "everything I'm going to say is explained in greater detail on my website, and I'll also have people dissecting all the horrible lies Donald is about to tell you."

So, their respective positions on technology:

Clinton / Kaine: Go read our in-depth policy positions
Trump / Pence: CHECK OUT THE SEX TAPE!
posted by Mayor West at 8:05 AM on September 30, 2016 [20 favorites]


I noticed something regarding the Donald Trump/Bill O'Reilly interview about Alice Machado. This is an excerpt (my own transcription):

She did not do well. She had a lot of difficulty. And, you know, they wanted to fire her. The company itself wanted to fire her. I saved her job ... I saved her job because I said that's going to be ruinous I did that with a number of young ladies, saved their jobs but the staff itself. Look what happened. Look what I get out of it. I get nothing.

Did he essentially say that he did this same thing to "a number of young ladies?" There are a lot of Alicia Machado's out there?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


How did he learn nothing from that?

Like the craziest part of this is that I'm thinking "Surely nothing he can do will be more distasteful than this" but if he's taught me anything it's don't overestimate him.
posted by DynamiteToast at 8:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


see three different ways of making sense of Trump's statements.

Another way is to assume Trump will always take the opportunity to call a woman a fat whore if he can.
posted by rtha at 8:07 AM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


Oh, Clinton is going ALL IN.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:07 AM on September 30, 2016 [24 favorites]


Oh, Clinton is going ALL IN.

Whoever decided that she needs to call him "Donald" every. Single. Time, well, that person deserves whatever award you give to political campaigners.
posted by Etrigan at 8:08 AM on September 30, 2016 [71 favorites]


rainy: This is awesome, Colbert

"Trump said the polls all said he won, while the polls all said Hillary won. So it's he-said, reality-said."

Best line.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:09 AM on September 30, 2016 [43 favorites]


One thing I've only recently realised. Trump thinks he's dealing with a D-list celebrity. How many former winners of Miss Universe, Miss World, or any other beauty contest can you name.

What he's actually dealing with is effectively a TV soap star. Joint star of something that ran for 121 episodes in 2015 on Spanish-language TV in Mexico - and star of all 37 episodes (story finished, not cancelled) of something on Spanish language TV in 2013 in America. Not the biggest star - but certainly higher than the D list.
posted by Francis at 8:10 AM on September 30, 2016 [23 favorites]



So, their respective positions on technology:

Clinton / Kaine: Go read our in-depth policy positions
Trump / Pence: CHECK OUT THE SEX TAPE!


Plus "my son is good at the cyber."
posted by drezdn at 8:10 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Please save one or two of the responses for around 10pm. I want 3am Donald meltdowns to happen every night.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:11 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


My money is on a "legal" medical habit.

Phentermine. Easy to get and if you use it incorrectly, it will give you very similar results to cocaine. Also, while it is a weight-loss drug, it won't help with weight loss if your hunger has more to do low blood sugar or anxiety or binge-eating.

I speak from personal experience.
posted by asteria at 8:11 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


@HillaryClinton: While Donald continues day 5 of his Machado meltdown, we'll be in Florida talking about national service. You'll want to watch.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:13 AM on September 30, 2016 [31 favorites]


America: Where the guy who defended his current wife's nude modeling and ogled a twelve-year-old (and later watched her sex tape) is AGHAST, AGHAST I tell you, that his opponent associates with a woman who, er, didn't actually have a sex tape but watch it anyway.
posted by delfin at 8:13 AM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


@dandrezner: It's probably a coincidence that the people Trump persists in attacking -- Judge Curiel, the Khan family, Ms. Machado -- are minorities
posted by chris24


I think that's the key, actually. We're all thinking, what a maroon, why won't he just drop these ridiculous vendettas to get past them quicker? But he doesn't want to. The message isn't Curiel, Khan, Machado specifically, it's "I'll attack minorities for you" generally.
posted by ctmf at 8:14 AM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


Why Donald Trump tweets late at night (and very early in the morning):
The election is in less than 40 days, and the trailing candidate is still railing about something that his opponent explicitly and strategically wanted to distract him with. Hillary Clinton wanted to show that he could be baited into tweeting, so she baited him, and he is tweeting. It's sort of amazing.
...
Trump is a Twitter addict and a night owl. (Editor's note: Same.) He's been tweeting less recently than he did earlier in the campaign, which makes Friday morning's eruption all the more noticeable. But he doesn't tweet late at night because he's mad, he tweets late at night because he tweets late at night. Because he had something he wanted to say right at that minute and so he said it, instead of, say, going to sleep (or going back to sleep).

And that, of course, was Clinton's entire point.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:15 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


Josh Gerstein: Trump deposition video set for release
A video of Donald Trump testifying under oath about his provocative rhetoric about Mexicans and other Latinos is set to go public as soon as Friday, drawing new attention to those comments just weeks before voters cast their ballots in the presidential race.

Trump gave the testimony in June at a law office in Washington in connection with one of two lawsuits he filed last year after prominent chefs reacted to the controversy over his remarks by pulling out of plans to open restaurants at his new D.C. hotel.

D.C. Superior Court Judge Brian Holeman said in an order issued Thursday evening that fears the testimony might show up in campaign commercials were no basis to keep the public from seeing the video.

"This Court finds that Plaintiff has not demonstrated that any subject video deposition contains scandalous, libelous, or other unduly prejudicial material warranting denial of media access," Holeman wrote. "The public shall not be held captive by the suggested eventuality of partisan editing in a manner unfavorable to Plaintiff or the deponents."'
popcorn.gif
posted by zombieflanders at 8:16 AM on September 30, 2016 [68 favorites]


Guaranteed 40% of the vote.
posted by Artw at 8:16 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Phentermine. Easy to get...

... in MEXICO. Think about it, he flies down on a whim, has a low energy press conference with the Presidente, then flies back to Arizona and has a balls crazy rally. It's been a non-stop party ever since. The trip down to Mexico was to re-up on his supply of black market phentermine.
posted by peeedro at 8:17 AM on September 30, 2016 [21 favorites]


This whole thread is amazing

For posterity:

What kind of man stays up all night to smear a woman with lies and conspiracy theories?

Alicia deserves praise for courageously standing up to Trump's attacks. And he has the gall to blame her—and say he "helped"?

When something gets under Donald's thin skin, he lashes out and can't let go. This is dangerous for a president.

Trump obsessively bullies Rosie O'Donnell—an accomplished actor. He insulted Kim Kardashian for her weight—when she was pregnant. Pathetic.

We've heard Donald's insults for years, and his policies reflect this disregard—even contempt—for women.

Trump on equal pay: "Do as good a job" as men.
Abortion? Should be "punished."
Pregnancy? An "inconvenience."
Wives working? "Dangerous."

While Donald continues day 5 of his Machado meltdown, we'll be in Florida talking about national service. You'll want to watch.

BOOM
posted by like_neon at 8:17 AM on September 30, 2016 [61 favorites]


> The trip down to Mexico was to re-up on his supply of black market phentermine.

Too stupid to believe. Trump's Mirror says .. well, probably true, then.
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


The election is in less than 40 days, and the trailing candidate is still railing about something that his opponent explicitly and strategically wanted to distract him with. Hillary Clinton wanted to show that he could be baited into tweeting, so she baited him, and he is tweeting. It's sort of amazing.

CLINTON: So a man who can be provoked by a tweet should not have his fingers anywhere near the nuclear codes, as far as I think anyone with any sense about this should be concerned.

TRUMP: That line’s getting a little bit old, I must say. I would like to...

CLINTON: It’s a good one, though. It well describes the problem.

(LAUGHTER)

TRUMP: It’s not an accurate one at all. It’s not an accurate one.

[Title screen: THE GANG GETS PROVOKED]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:19 AM on September 30, 2016 [37 favorites]




Also, while it is a weight-loss drug, it won't help with weight loss if your hunger has more to do low blood sugar or anxiety or binge-eating.

Or the gnawing emptiness that can only be sated with the vital essences of--

Sorry, what were we talking about?
posted by Mayor West at 8:20 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


The trip down to Mexico was to re-up on his supply of black market phentermine.

Psh, nah. We've seen the man's doctor. He's got 'pill mill' written all over him. Trump does not need to go to Mexico to get knockoff quasi-legal speed, assuming these rumors have any basis.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:21 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


Seriously, if Trump can't afford to get his illegal pills at home, he's even less rich than we think he is.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


Or the gnawing emptiness that can only be sated with the vital essences of--

Frenzied Coldblood, I presume.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:24 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump Poetry

Travel

I just left Detroit and
I just left Philadelphia and
I just –
you know,
you’ve seen me,
I been all over the place.
You decided to stay home,
and that’s OK.
But I will tell you
I’ve been all over

posted by anastasiav at 8:25 AM on September 30, 2016 [25 favorites]


... in MEXICO. Think about it, he flies down on a whim, has a low energy press conference with the Presidente, then flies back to Arizona and has a balls crazy rally. It's been a non-stop party ever since. The trip down to Mexico was to re-up on his supply of black market phentermine.

So, now the election season is parodying first season episodes of The Venture Bros?
posted by Existential Dread at 8:25 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


roomthreeseventeen: Oh, Clinton is going ALL IN.

@HillaryClinton: To Donald, women like Alicia are only as valuable as his personal opinion about their looks. (links to LA Times article: Trump wanted to fire women who weren't pretty enough, say employees at his California golf club, by Matt Pearce, Sept. 29, 2016)
When Trump did visit, the club’s managers went on alert. They scheduled the young, thin, pretty women on staff to work the clubhouse restaurant — because when Trump saw less-attractive women working at his club, according to court records, he wanted them fired.

"I had witnessed Donald Trump tell managers many times while he was visiting the club that restaurant hostesses were 'not pretty enough' and that they should be fired and replaced with more attractive women,” Hayley Strozier, who was director of catering at the club until 2008, said in a sworn declaration.
Pull quote and emphasis as in Hillary's tweet.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:26 AM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


[Title screen: THE GANG GETS PROVOKED]

Credits, music

INT PADDY'S PUB, THE GANG IN BOOTH, HUDDLED OVER PHONES

CHARLIE [LOOKS UP]: Remember when Mac gained all that weight?

FRANK: Now that was a real problem. Didn't he try to make a sex tape?
posted by mwhybark at 8:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Or the gnawing emptiness that can only be sated with the vital essences of--

I do not avoid Donald Trump, sir... but I do deny him my essence.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Josh Gerstein: Trump deposition video set for release

Does anyone know anything about this? Have the full transcripts been released or will this video have previously unreleased testimony?
posted by lalex at 8:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


rp: Thank you, Joe.

Joe Biden: Donald Trump is painfully uninformed (Vice President Joe Biden offered his thoughts on the first presidential debate while speaking in Drexel, Philadelphia. 31 minutes)

LOLOLOLOL - when I first clicked that link, the ad was "It's Time to End the Divide" - Taking a Stand, by Koch Industries
We want to have an open conversation about removing barriers to opportunity and progress. Our aim is to replace America’s two-tiered, winner-take-all system with one free and open society where all can win.
Oooh, are you saying deregulation? Or are you really talking about expanding the two-party system? Are you not happy with the libertarian and conservative think tanks and campaigns you heavily fund?
posted by filthy light thief at 8:30 AM on September 30, 2016


If I'm reading the story correctly, the transcripts have been released:

the videos remained inaccessible because they were filed directly with judge's chambers and the court's docketing system doesn't allow access to exhibits like videos.

Transcripts of the testimony in the suit Trump filed against companies connected with restaurateur Geoffrey Zakarian have already been made public.

posted by nubs at 8:31 AM on September 30, 2016


Does anyone know anything about this? Have the full transcripts been released or will this video have previously unreleased testimony?

I believe the full transcripts are already public; it's was just a question of the videos of the depositions.
posted by cjelli at 8:31 AM on September 30, 2016




I don't think Hillary has that kind of Transluminiscent Aetiology.

When I start my progressive blackened death metal band, Transluminescent Aetiology will be the name of our debut album.
posted by infinitywaltz at 8:32 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


Thanks folks!
posted by lalex at 8:32 AM on September 30, 2016


I wonder what the GOP congresscritters are talking about this morning.
posted by Slackermagee at 8:35 AM on September 30, 2016


Rolling Stone: If you were trying to run a losing campaign, wouldn't it look just like Trump's?: But here's the thing. Let's say you were trying to lose an election for president, lose it as spectacularly as possible, lose it so badly you destroyed your reputation forever. Wouldn't you do pretty much everything Donald Trump has done over the past 18 months – up to and including his meltdown on Twitter in the wee hours of Friday morning? Just look at this (not even close to comprehensive) list.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:37 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


In today's Jeb! news:
Former Florida Governor Jeb Bush (R) has a bright idea for social change: don't vote for the presidency. Bush told reporters Thursday that he won't vote for Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton, and that it would send quite a statement if no one else did either, CNN reported. "Well, if everybody didn't vote, that would be a pretty powerful political statement, wouldn't it?"
To be fair, it was a pretty powerful statement when no one voted for Jeb! -- he's not wrong about that.

He also backhandedly confirmed (although at this point is already substantially was) that his father will be voting for Clinton, saying 'that he found it "inappropriate" that someone would repeat what his "frail" father said at a private event.'
posted by cjelli at 8:37 AM on September 30, 2016 [33 favorites]


Does anyone know anything about this? Have the full transcripts been released or will this video have previously unreleased testimony?

Transcipt, here (pdf)

posted by Mister Bijou at 8:38 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Did he essentially say that he did this same thing to "a number of young ladies?" There are a lot of Alicia Machado's out there?

Why wouldn't there be?
posted by emjaybee at 8:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Crap, sorry, the one I linked to is a Trump U deposition, not the restaurant case.

GOD, THERE ARE SO MANY DEPOSITIONS
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


Tom Jacobs, Pacific Standard: Ingrained Sexism Helps Explain Why Evangelicals Support Trump
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


While I'd prefer if more Republicans would actually vote for Hillary because -1 Trump +1 Hillary represents a net increase of 2 I'm okay if Republicans leave the Presidential bubble blank or vote for someone completely irrelevant or write in JEB!
posted by vuron at 8:42 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


Wait. Am I supposed to hate Alicia Machado for gaining weight so she's not sexually attractive, or am I supposed to hate her because she was sexy enough for someone to make a sex tape with her?

I'm confused.
posted by cooker girl at 8:43 AM on September 30, 2016 [48 favorites]


Bush told reporters Thursday that he won't vote for Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton, and that it would send quite a statement if no one else did either,

Jeb Bush boldly advocating doing the quietest most disappointing course of action possible? Jeb BUSH? JEB BUSH????? JERBY BUSHIE???? JOOMBA LA BOOSHERS???????
posted by Greg Nog at 8:43 AM on September 30, 2016 [66 favorites]


"Well, if everybody didn't vote, that would be a pretty powerful political statement, wouldn't it?"

Wtf Jeb!, you were supposed to be the smart one.
posted by dis_integration at 8:44 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


JOOMBA LA BOOSHERS
posted by cooker girl at 8:45 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


Wtf Jeb!, you were supposed to be the smart one.

He is, but think what that's being compared to.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


The (Not So) Mighty Boosh
posted by zombieflanders at 8:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I just love "Machado Meltdown."

Can't wait for Trump to prove it even more.
posted by chris24 at 8:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


please clap don't vote
posted by tonycpsu at 8:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [23 favorites]




So, it's Friday. Let's take a look at All The Things that are lined up for Monday like a row of beautiful ducks:

- #machadomeltdown is not going anywhere, I think Donald's got at least a few more days left in him. How long did his fixation on the Khans last?
- Videos of depositions with him saying horrible things, with a full weekend to come up with a fresh new ad starring Donald
- Trump Foundation closing in like a vice, especially after the news that they're not even properly registered in NYC
- The Cuba thing only just starting up, I mean Clinton hasn't even mentioned this one yet has she? It's crazy, there is so much shit on Donald there's spares!

Oh and 8 days til the town hall. I think today is a bit of a wash for prepping, he was up pretty late last night and needs to go down for a nap.
posted by like_neon at 8:51 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump spokesperson Healy Baumgardner quits the campaign.

looks like somebody's paycheque bounced and they want it to look like an act of principle
posted by mightygodking at 8:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


Did any of the Republican candidates in the primary do opposition research on Trump?
posted by drezdn at 8:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


There's a fun bit on page 99 of that transcript, which I'm just skimming. Seems Trump signed a letter of credit which was sent to the bank, claiming that the plaintiffs had to send him a balance of money for violating a lease, but the lease hadn't actually begun yet.

Q: Did you or anyone on your behalf have any conversations with the bank about drawing down on the letter of credit?
Trump: I don't know. I didn't, but I don't know.
[...]
Q: And at the time you signed this certification, you understand, don't you, that the CZ-National obligation to pay rent hadn't even begun to accrue yet?
Trump: I -- I don't understand anything. I, frankly, was just given this by my attorneys. They 1 said this is proper --
Trump's lawyer: Wait.
Q: Right.
Trump: Okay.
Q: I don't want to ask you what your attorneys told you.
Trump: I relied on my attorneys, okay, to put it differently.
Q: Okay. Good.
Trump: Now she's happy.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:53 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


That clip of Trump saying "I don't understand anything" is going to be in every commercial and it's gonna rule
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [54 favorites]


Just to reiterate (since it's so hard to keep track of the facts with so much bullshit flying around) there is no Alicia Machado sex tape. That had already been conclusively and publicly debunked well before Trump's tweetstorm this morning. The purported Alicia Machado sex tape that Trump refers to actually features an unrelated woman, a professional pornographic actress who just happens to look a little bit like Alicia Machado. There is no evidence that any genuine Alicia Machado sex tape—professionally produced or otherwise—exists, or that she has featured in pornography aside from a single topless photoshoot for Playboy.

Not that it would validate Trump's attack one bit if a sex tape did exist; I mean, nobody is trying to claim that Machado has never had sex—she's a mother for grief's sake—and it baffles me why it should matter whether or not there is videographic evidence of that. Donald Trump has had sex. Hillary Clinton has had sex. Your mom has had sex, and so has your dad. Most adult humans have. It's a totally normal and generally pretty fun thing to do, plus it's kinda central to the continued existence of our species, so I'm not sure why I'm supposed to have a problem with Machado also doing it.

I just want to make sure that we keep things straight, here. Trump is not just being grossly misogynistic and petty, he's also lying, and in a very transparent, amateurish way at that.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:55 AM on September 30, 2016 [103 favorites]


Wtf Jeb!, you were supposed to be the smart one.

Smart for a Bush.

Srsly, were Poppy and Babs cousins or something?
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:56 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Never mind Thiel, I want a reporter to ask Mike Pence if he has watched the sex tape yet.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:57 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


I got the impression that Jeb! and Rmoney had lots and lots of dirt on Trump but after Jeb! had a complete failure to launch in the primaries they decided to just go with the vague "He's not a good candidate" warnings.

I saw that as a repudiation of Marco and Cruz that they'd rather let Trump go ahead and win in order to get destroyed by Clinton in November with the idea that then they wouldn't have anyone in the way for 2020 when presumably one of them would run against an unpopular Hillary.

The willingness to turn on each other at the drop of a hat seems to be endemic in the Republican party.
posted by vuron at 9:00 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Machado posted on her instagram an hour ago. Google translate does a pretty good job.
posted by pixie at 9:01 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


This isn't good fodder for an attack ad but it's pretty funny:

Q: You also had a relationship with Serta?
Trump: Yes. Mattress.
Q: What was the -- was the nature of the relationship?
Trump: Mattresses.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:02 AM on September 30, 2016 [50 favorites]




Wait. Am I supposed to hate Alicia Machado for gaining weight so she's not sexually attractive, or am I supposed to hate her because she was sexy enough for someone to make a sex tape with her?

You're supposed to be in awe of Donald Trump's willingness to humiliate people whom he sees as enemies. Especially women and non-whites.
posted by argybarg at 9:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


So, it's Friday. Let's take a look at All The Things that are lined up for Monday like a row of beautiful ducks

Trump vs. Clinton on Saturday Night Live
posted by kirkaracha at 9:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


MetaFilter: CHECK OUT THE SEX TAPE!
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


That transcript
TL:DR: Trump the rent collector; details not so much
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:07 AM on September 30, 2016


I think the Occam's razor answer to "didn't any of the other R. candidates do oppo on Trump?" question is yeah, they did, but they knew these kinds of things weren't going to bother the majority of the votes they were seeking. I guess it's possible they're not as cynical about their base as I am but I'd point to how tone-deaf his allies like Gingrich are being about this whole thing. "Mistreating women? Who's that going to bother?"
posted by phearlez at 9:09 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


Former Florida Governor Jeb Bush (R) has a bright idea for social change: don't vote for the presidency. Bush told reporters Thursday that he won't vote for Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton, and that it would send quite a statement if no one else did either, CNN reported.

Aaaaaand then the election gets thrown to the Republican-controlled House of Representatives.

Nice try, Jeb, but no sale.
posted by Gelatin at 9:10 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


It's not Machado in that video. It's a different woman. But so fucking what if it was her?

I can't begin to express my contempt for consumers of sex work who then shame the sex workers. There is zero chance Trump doesn't watch porn. None. Same for a huge portion of his base. Yet they think this matters. Fuck that entire mindset and fuck everyone who holds to it.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:10 AM on September 30, 2016 [87 favorites]


there is no Alicia Machado sex tape.

Pivot! It's not about the Alicia Dark porno now. It's now about some grainy night-vision footage from a "Big Brother"-type show she was on.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:11 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I just noticed that all the Trump emails I get are from info@bencarson.com and start with "Please find a special message from one of our advertisers, Trump Make America Great Again Committee." I wonder what he thinks about that spicy sex tape
posted by theodolite at 9:11 AM on September 30, 2016


Jeb Bush: "Well, if everybody didn't vote, that would be a pretty powerful political statement, wouldn't it?"

Yes, I agree 100%! Everyone shouldn't vote. Yep. ... No, don't get up, Jeb. You gotta keep an eye on the game, keep track of the score for me. I'm not going anywhere... Just gotta get some chocolate milk... at the store. ... Be right back! No big deal.
posted by Slothrop at 9:13 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


There is zero chance Trump doesn't watch porn. None.

He told Howard Stern he watched Paris Hilton's sex tape, didn't he?
posted by argybarg at 9:13 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Actual dialogue in angrycat therapy session
Angrycat: ever since the debate Monday, that feeling of black despair has been lifted
Shrink: we still have six weeks to go. I heard today that the Ohio county that has been the bellwether for every election ever is leaning Trump
Angrycat :(
posted by angrycat at 9:14 AM on September 30, 2016 [26 favorites]


Jeb Bush: "Well, if everybody didn't vote, that would be a pretty powerful political statement, wouldn't it?"

Wow, a powerful message. Yeah. I mean, 45% of the country didn't vote in the 2012 election, but I'm sure 10% of ballots having a blank spot on them will really move the needle.
posted by 0xFCAF at 9:15 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


pixie: Machado posted on her instagram an hour ago.

So, um, does being a speed freak eventually affect your vision? Because that picture is not a fat person. Obviously shaming anyone's body is wrong, but in this case she's simply...not what he called her.

(And if Trump thinks she is fat, what does he think of his own body? Good heavens, it must be terrible inside his head.)
posted by wenestvedt at 9:15 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


I think it might be time for a new therapist, angrycat.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:16 AM on September 30, 2016 [33 favorites]


info@bencarson.com

Mailmerged for your convencience from a database called easymarks.db.

There is nothing about today's GOP that is not, when you drill all the way down, a direct marketing scam.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:16 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


there is no Alicia Machado sex tape. That had already been conclusively and publicly debunked well before Trump's tweetstorm this morning. The purported Alicia Machado sex tape that Trump refers to actually features an unrelated woman, a professional pornographic actress who just happens to look a little bit like Alicia Machado.

But did they check the kerning?
posted by Gelatin at 9:16 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Another historic endorsement: The San Diego Union-Tribune. "This paper has not endorsed a Democrat for president in its 148-year history. But we endorse Clinton. She’s the safe choice for the U.S. and for the world, for Democrats and Republicans alike."
posted by Sublimity at 9:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [33 favorites]




"Alicia Dark" should be shooting a Trump/pageant themed video at this very moment if she wants to make a mint.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:19 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


At this point, Shelley Levene has tossed the Glengarry leads in the trashcan to make room for the Trump/Carson mailing list.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:20 AM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


ABC
Always
Be
Conning.
posted by drezdn at 9:21 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


If you were trying to run a losing campaign, wouldn't it look just like Trump's?

Honestly, I'm starting to wonder if this entire election cycle has just been an elaborate Brewster's Millions-esque gambit by Trump to bleed the Republican party dry of both cash and popular appeal.

The main problem with that line of thought, of course, is contemplating what he's going to take home as the big prize if he manages to pull it off.
posted by Mayor West at 9:22 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


VOICEOVER: It's 3am and and your children are safe and asleep.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of that. I hope the Clinton people are on it. It's the perfect ad!

Just replay the 3AM phone call ad, but at the end you see a Trump-shaped person from the back, furiously hard at work at a computer. Then we zoom in on the screen, and it's last night's Machado tweets.

Done! Get it in the can, start playing it everywhere this afternoon. It works whether you remember the "3AM phone call" ad and all its baggage, or not.
posted by gurple at 9:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


He told Howard Stern he watched Paris Hilton's sex tape, didn't he?

Yeah, and it's really gross. Seriously, prepare some brain bleach before reading:
During that same interview, Trump mocked J. Lo’s ass (“I really like J. Lo but that ass is…. I mean…”), and, while discussing the women that are, in his not-so-humble opinion, the most beautiful in the world, would say very creepy things about Paris Hilton and his own daughter, Ivanka.

“Now, somebody who a lot of people don’t give credit to but is in actuality very beautiful is Paris Hilton,” Trump told Stern. “I’ve known Paris Hilton from the time she’s 12, her parents are friends of mine, and the first time I saw her she walked into the room and I said, ‘Who the hell is that?’ At 12, I wasn’t interested… but she was beautiful.” He also admitted to watching Paris Hilton’s sex tape with Knauss, despite knowing her since the age of 12 and being very close friends with the Hilton Family.

But he saved his strangest comments for Ivanka, who was 21 at the time. “You know who’s one of the great beauties of the world—according to everybody—and I helped create her? Ivanka. My daughter, Ivanka. She’s 6 feet tall, she’s got the best body. She made a lot of money as a model—a tremendous amount,” he said. “She’s considered one of the most beautiful women. And she really is, she’s a great beauty.”
posted by zombieflanders at 9:24 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Republicans have launched a separate inquiry into whether the former secretary of State committed perjury when she testified before Congress about her unorthodox communications system.

Does anyone know how likely this is to happen before Election Day? Usually I go looking for my own answers about these things, but there is mostly just a cloud of methane when I search for "Hillary email perjury hearing".

I feel bad for angrycat's shrink, who, as a person with a graduate degree, is probably also afraid of Trump and is losing the ability to be reassuring all day - but no, they're not supposed to engage with anxiety that way. In any case, this is an unprecedented election and I'm not paying attention to traditional bellwethers with no independent significance. The demographics are changed, and that's what this madness is all about, really.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:25 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


The purported Alicia Machado sex tape that Trump refers to actually features an unrelated woman, a professional pornographic actress who just happens to look a little bit like Alicia Machado.

Trump's Mirror is now in play, so I'm eagerly awaiting the next press release from Katrina Pierson in which she plays this off as a non-story, because clearly those latina women all look alike anyway.
posted by Mayor West at 9:25 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


At 12, I wasn’t interested… but she was beautiful.

I'm sure Eric Trump will always remember his father's courage in not being turned on by a 12-year-old girl.
posted by argybarg at 9:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [54 favorites]




There is zero doubt in my mind that if a sex tape featuring Ivanka were to turn up, Trump would eagerly watch it. He's really that disgusting.
posted by Roommate at 9:29 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Please save one or two of the responses for around 10pm.

I'm not sure Trump's campaign knows Team HRC can schedule tweets to troll him. Or that Hillary isn't checking Twitter every few minutes.
posted by holgate at 9:30 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump's behavior makes a lot more sense if you assume that his whole run has been about setting up Trump TV, rather than about winning the Presidency.

When people tell him you've got to shut up about X, you've got to stop saying things that offend Y group, someone who was trying to win the election would be like, OMG, you're right, I should totally do that so I can appeal to the swing voters because I need them in order to win. And then he would try to do that.

Someone whose main interest was in setting up his own TV channel after the election would say, I can't do that, it'd hurt me with my deplorable base. Because he needs them on his side after the election is over, to watch his network.

Everything else being equal, I don't think he would mind being elected President. I just think that it looks like he's not really trying because he is, in fact, not really trying: Trump TV was the original plan, and it's still the plan. He tells the GOP otherwise, but his goals and their goals have never been the same. And it's been too late for them to do anything about it since July, so.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:32 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump's behavior makes a lot more sense if you assume that his whole run has been about setting up Trump TV, rather than about winning the Presidency.

I personally think the dude is legitimately delusional, and that this is giving him far more credit for forward-thinking than we have any evidence he deserves.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:33 AM on September 30, 2016 [53 favorites]


JoeZydeco: Trump spokesperson Healy Baumgardner quits the campaign.
A Florida Trump aide resigned Monday because she said she's uncomfortable with the lack of progress in the campaign. “It is clear the campaign is now going in a direction I am no longer comfortable with and I have decided to move on,” said Healy Baumgardner, who had established herself early on as a public face of the campaign on TV, then saw her role shift to Florida following several campaign shake-ups.

Baumgardner, a 20-year political operative who has worked on four presidential campaigns, said she looks forward “to honorably casting my vote for Mr. Trump on Election Day.”

Clinton is 4 percentage points ahead of Trump in Florida, according to a Mason-Dixon Polling & Research survey taken after the debate.
So, which direction is that? Down? Or doubling down on sexist slop? (And I wonder if she's contractually obligated to say she'll vote for Donald, or is just being a good campaign person?)
posted by filthy light thief at 9:34 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Absolutely loving the pundit turn Nate has taken this election.

September 1 (As The Race Tightens, Don’t Assume The Electoral College Will Save Clinton): Clinton...is ahead by 4 or 5 percentage points today...I’ve often heard Democrats express a belief that Clinton’s position in the swing states will protect her in the Electoral College even if the race draws to a dead heat overall. But this is potentially mistaken.

September 29 (Even A Small Post-Debate Bounce Could Make A Big Difference For Clinton): The map starts to look a lot safer for Clinton if she’s up by 3 to 5 points instead.

RIDE THE ROLLERCOASTER FOLKS!
posted by one_bean at 9:34 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


The most disturbing aspect of the rape accusation against Trump is that the woman involved looked a lot like Ivanka as a teenager.
posted by asteria at 9:36 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


In the midst of the Red Sox clinching a playoff berth, and the amazing success of the New England Patriots with their backup QBs, and a few of the more politically-minded sports talk hosts are losing their minds over Machado. They know it's a campaign-ending PR masterstroke, and their response has been to 1) Accuse her of murder, but only briefly, because more importantly, 2) She got fat! How dare she get fat! It was her job not to get fat! Why was she fat? She was (varies between 15 to 80) pounds overweight! How did she expect to keep her job, being Miss Universe and fat?

They. Can't. Let. It. Go.

They know it's stupid. They know it doesn't matter in terms of policy and issues they care about. They... just can't drop it.

Some callers are trying to steer them to the notion that crude body-shaming is turning off almost anyone who isn't a revanchist pig, and they don't get it, aren't equipped with the tools to understand it. They're spending hours making Clinton's point for her. It's amazing.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:36 AM on September 30, 2016 [22 favorites]


I don't think "delusional" and "focused on Trump TV" are necessarily mutually exclusive.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:38 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump's incompetence is not evidence of some grand master plan; it is evidence of his incompetence. If Trump later claims that it was all an act to lay the groundwork for his new media empire, why should we believe that more than any other self-serving lie of his?
posted by J.K. Seazer at 9:38 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


Why are so many people saying "check out the sex tape" in this thread? It's not "check out the sex tape". It's "check out sex tape". Trump/Pence: CHECK OUT SEX TAPE. Catchier, no?
posted by mhum at 9:38 AM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


There is zero doubt in my mind that if a sex tape featuring Ivanka were to turn up, Trump would eagerly watch it. He's really that disgusting.

Not only would he watch it, he'd market it and sign deals for spin-off merchandising. Remember that he coerced then-mistress Marla Maples into posing for Playboy.

Man, the tell-all book Barron could write 20 years from now will be amazing.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 9:39 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Even setting aside the creepiness of listing his daughter as one of the three hottest women he can think of, it's pretty notable that the other two were Paris Hilton and Kiera Knightly, who are both known for being about as willowy-thin as any female celebrities on Earth.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I've been watching the Deutsche Bank problems this week - they've been fire-selling non-core assets and today, they denied there was a run starting by hedge funds disengaging, so there are real fears of serious trouble ahead. And not for just DB: I'm thinking those post-collapse banking system stress tests are going to be put to the test themselves.

Now, DB is, as far as I remember, the only bank willing to deal with Trump.They have (as someone mentioned upthread) an enormous amount of his debt and, one presumes, are a major arbiter of his liquidity.

That could unravel very fast. Which would be... interesting.
posted by Devonian at 9:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [32 favorites]


There is zero doubt in my mind that if a sex tape featuring Ivanka were to turn up, Trump would eagerly watch it sue for a hefty royalty/agent's fee.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


So, it's Friday. Let's take a look at All The Things that are lined up for Monday

Pretty sure the next thread will be Tuesday. This thread is young yet, and Tues. is the VP debate.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Baumgardner, a 20-year political operative who has worked on four presidential campaigns, said she looks forward “to honorably casting my vote for Mr. Trump on Election Day.”

She misused the word "honorably." Not what words mean. Terrible spokeswoman. Sad!
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:42 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah, I don't think Trump has any master plan. He is just amazingly bad at life and his whole campaign is only successful because White People Mad.
posted by zutalors! at 9:42 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'm curious - I don't watch a lot of TV and I haven't seen many Clinton ads (except for the recent one about Trump's comments about women). What percentage of them are just clips of Trump spouting his hateful garbage? Please say all of them.
posted by komara at 9:44 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


All the negative ads I've seen have been kids/veterans/etc groups watching Trump spout hateful garbage or people telling stories about how Trump ripped them off in business.
posted by zutalors! at 9:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


WHITE PEOPLE MAD. CHECK OUT SEX TAPE. MAKE AGAIN MAKE.
posted by komara at 9:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


So, the Giant Orange Talking Yam and Mayor "The Buildings Almost Fell On Me" are in town. Probably stopping by to beg some Braggadocious Bucks from the DeVos Mafia.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:47 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Man, the tell-all book Barron could write 20 years from now will be amazing.

Deep in a safe somewhere in Trump Tower, there's an NDA with a newborn-sized footprint on it.
posted by EarBucket at 9:47 AM on September 30, 2016 [68 favorites]


Trump leaked Melanie's nude pix to the NY Post. I mean for fucks sake they had a proud, positive quote from him about them in the damn article.
posted by chris24 at 9:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I have to hold out hope for Barron because he's so young, but I am pretty sure he'll turn out like the rest of them. It's weird because by all accounts they've spent so little time with their father, but they've all reacted by trying to suck up for his love, rather than rejecting him.
posted by zutalors! at 9:50 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


[Politically-minded sports radio hosts] are spending hours making Clinton's point for her.

I write this as a cis-gender white male - this is both a demonstration of privilege and the typical reaction to any hint of its removal. These hosts simply cannot understand that a woman's body does not belong to them. They might understand that on a superficial level - they surely understand that it would be illegal to kidnap Ms. Machado - but they don't understand it on any deep level.

BTW, that Rolling Stone link about whether Trump really wants to win is AMAZING! I have been following the election closely for a long time, but it is astonishing to read all of Trump's signature idiotic and hateful moments in one list.
posted by Slothrop at 9:50 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Apologies if this point was made earlier, but I can't stop myself from thinking this:

Not only is he a horrible misogynist, a horrible racist, and a horrible human being in all the other ways, his (untrue anyway) attacks make no sense from a strategic perspective: America loves a sex tape!
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:51 AM on September 30, 2016


My fondest hope is that Trump goes to jail for some of these frauds that would have gone undiscovered if he hadn't run for president. But I'll also settle for becoming a business pariah and losing a bunch of lawsuits.

OTOH, New York needs to appoint a working group to go over how the Trump Organization managed to engage in SO MUCH illegal behavior for so long without drawing the attention of regulators or prosecutors. And I know a lot of it is that they just make things wildly overcomplicated, target small businesses that can't fire back, and bury opponents in paperwork, but that's the kind of thing the state clearly needs better enforcement mechanisms to cope with.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:51 AM on September 30, 2016 [53 favorites]


It's weird because by all accounts they've spent so little time with their father, but they've all reacted by trying to suck up for his love, rather than rejecting him.

They know which side their bread is gilded on
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


They know it's a campaign-ending PR masterstroke, and their response has been to 1) Accuse her of murder, but only briefly, because more importantly, 2) She got fat! How dare she get fat! It was her job not to get fat! Why was she fat? She was (varies between 15 to 80) pounds overweight! How did she expect to keep her job, being Miss Universe and fat?

Yeah, I feel bad now for worrying yesterday that the Trump campaign would spend the week attacking Clinton by using the allegations of Machado's involvement in a murder to lure the media into reporting on that story since I figured murder was a pretty compelling story. It never occurred to me that they'd instead go back again and again to weight and sex tapes in an attempt to discredit Machado and Clinton. I couldn't imagine with Trump's own history and the popularity of celebs like Kim Kardasian that would even be imagined a winning formula. But clearly Trump's own ridiculous obsessions are driving their message more than any real plan.

My problem now is that I'm not sure whether I'm more or less disturbed that our own would be Nazis seem to channeling the Hogan's Heroes version as much as Downfall's.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Now, DB is, as far as I remember, the only bank willing to deal with Trump.They have (as someone mentioned upthread) an enormous amount of his debt and, one presumes, are a major arbiter of his liquidity.
Because of Trump's history of failed projects and repeated bankruptcies, many of the world's top banks have long stopped doing business with him. Deutsche Bank was one of the only major banks—perhaps the only—that would work with him, and their relationship has been rocky. Trump wore out his welcome with Deutsche Bank's corporate banking arm in 2008, when he attempted to get out of paying $40 million he personally owed the bank after his company failed to make a payment deadline on a larger $640 million loan for his Chicago project. But Trump has maintained his relationship with Deutsche's so-called "private bank"—an arm of the bank that caters to wealthy people and has more flexibility in its lending standards than the corporate side. The four loans Trump currently has with Deutsche Bank are each from the private bank, a Deutsche Bank official told Mother Jones.
More at Mother Jones
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


true I guess there's no denying that filthy, filthy money
posted by zutalors! at 9:53 AM on September 30, 2016


Ok, I'm trying to tread gingerly here, but could we maybe cool it with the stuff about Trump sexualizing his daughter? Not because it's not true and disturbing and tragic, but because I don't think it's germane -- it's not coming up in the election -- and it is going to be triggering AS FUCK for a nontrivial amount of women.

Honestly, NPD fathers commit incest and rape at I think scarily high rates. (And NPD parents in general I think. Plus covert vs overt etc.) I'm not super comfortable gawking at Trump's terrible behavior when there's a nontrivial chance we're talking about something truly terrible.

And as triggering as Trump's behavior has been for a lot of people with NPD or toxic or abusive parents...I imagine that's gotta be way worse.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:53 AM on September 30, 2016 [60 favorites]


Trump's incompetence is not evidence of some grand master plan; it is evidence of his incompetence. If Trump later claims that it was all an act to lay the groundwork for his new media empire, why should we believe that more than any other self-serving lie of his?

I keep pinballing back and forth between "there's no way he ISN'T intentionally throwing this race to bolster his media brand; no one is this bad at politicking" and "actually, no, wait, some people are exactly this bad at everything, and I really doubt he's playing 9-dimensional chess when he can't even launder his own foundation's money without screwing it up."

If this is just a long con, then it's one of the stupidest things anyone has ever done. More than half the country will refuse to stay at a Trump hotel after this election, and he'll have made his real estate holdings radioactive to any business that doesn't want to be seen as racist/sexist/deplorable and boycotted. He can't possibly make up that revenue loss, even with a media empire. Can he?

But then: Trump's Razor. Intentionally throwing the race to parlay it into a TV network would indeed be the stupidest possible reason behind the last year's events.
posted by Mayor West at 9:55 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


TOYNBEE IDEA
IN KUBRICK'S 2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER
CHECK OUT SEX TAPE
posted by uosuaq at 9:56 AM on September 30, 2016 [51 favorites]


Hahahaha, of course they did.

Donald Trump Charity Gave to Jenny McCarthy’s Anti-Vaxx Crusade
posted by chris24 at 9:56 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


how the Trump Organization managed to engage in SO MUCH illegal behavior for so long without drawing the attention of regulators or prosecutors

I don't know exactly but Albany is considered notoriously corrupt in general.
posted by zutalors! at 9:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]




NYT baits snake people, they take the bait and give the quote we've been waiting for. Hillary Clinton Struggles to Win Back Young Voters From Third Parties:
The vast majority of millennials were not old enough to vote in 2000, when Ralph Nader ran as the Green Party nominee and, with the strong backing of young voters, helped cost Vice President Al Gore the presidency.

“Ralph who?” said David Frasier, a junior at Charleston Southern University.

“Didn’t he kind of come in at the last minute and kind of alter the votes or something?” Mr. Frasier, 26, asked, his memory barely jogged. “I was too young to remember.”
posted by zachlipton at 10:01 AM on September 30, 2016 [22 favorites]


Corruption's such old song that we can sing along in harmony, and nowhere is it stronger than in Albany!
posted by KathrynT at 10:02 AM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


Devonian: "They have (as someone mentioned upthread) an enormous amount of his debt and, one presumes, are a major arbiter of his liquidity. "

Would this be a good news/bad news situation for him? On the one hand, if DB goes away, Trump will probably find it harder to secure any new funding since everyone knows that he's a terrible credit risk (although Bank of China and Goldman Sachs have provided funding for some of recent joint projects where it looks like he was a minority partner). On the other hand, if DB goes bankrupt or something, would that mean that a big chunk of Trump's debt gets wiped clean?

Probably the worst-case scenario for Trump would be if DB survives but has to issue a call on his debt (could that even be possible? probably not, but it's fun to imagine) in order to settle the DOJ fine.
posted by mhum at 10:02 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


For anyone who's still wondering about whether they should vote or not, even in blue wall California, even in a liberal west coast enclave like Los Angeles County: Hate Crimes Surged by 24% Across L.A. County in 2015. Voting against the people who encourage and stoke this kind of behavior is, aside from not engaging in any hate crimes yourself, the literal absolute least you can do. Will voting magically make these hate crimes go away and improve our political climate like there's been a laying on of hands? No. But every little bit in that popular vote total against Trump is just that much more relief to your fellow citizens who are worried and scared right now.
posted by yasaman at 10:03 AM on September 30, 2016 [58 favorites]


On the other hand, if DB goes bankrupt or something, would that mean that a big chunk of Trump's debt gets wiped clean?

I understood that it could get sold off at auction to help DB pay off fines. Whoever buys it, in that scenario, has a ton of leverage over him.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:05 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


People Exclusive: Bill Clinton Opens Up About How Hillary Has Weathered Personal 'Heartbreaks and Disappointment'

This is an excerpt from the next episode of Hillary's podcast. Very much worth a read IMO.
posted by acidic at 10:05 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Warning: autoplay video from acidic's link.
posted by peacheater at 10:08 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]



“Didn’t he kind of come in at the last minute and kind of alter the votes or something?” Mr. Frasier, 26, asked, his memory barely jogged. “I was too young to remember"


I've been waiting for this?
posted by zutalors! at 10:09 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]




The last time I watched Morning Joe Mika was full of Concern that the debate wouldn't help Hillary at all. I can't even tell if she's really as dumb as she seems to be or if Joe constantly talking over her makes it hard for her to make any real points. That show is a waste.
posted by zutalors! at 10:13 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Is tronc in the pockets of Big Orange?

@latimes: Here's where the presidential race stands today in our daily tracking poll
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


As a person who was young, but of voting age, and did vote for Nader, (in Florida), I can confirm that I for sure would have voted for Gore over Bush.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 10:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


CHECK OUT SEX TAPE
posted by J.K. Seazer at 10:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


That Trump has no self control and can only respond to crises by detaching more from reality and exacerbating the situation with his own behavior...it's just so mind fucking boggling that anyone would vote for him.

Imagine this behavior and the consequences magnified with the stakes of the presidency.
posted by angrybear at 10:26 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Take a look at banner, Michael!
posted by one_bean at 10:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


[A few comments removed. If you are genuinely grappling for the first time with the idea that people have opinions about Nader's influence on the outcome of the 2000 US presidential election, it is time to do some googling for yourself, not bring it up in here and ask people to explain for the thousandth time.]
posted by cortex at 10:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [36 favorites]


Okay, I won't follow the Nader derail any more, except to point out this:

Nader, both in his book Crashing the Party and on his website states: "In the year 2000, exit polls reported that 25% of my voters would have voted for Bush, 38% would have voted for Gore and the rest would not have voted at all." (which would net a 13%, 12,665 votes, advantage for Gore over Bush.)

It's kind of crazy to talk about incredibly minor parties when the huge problem was the 12000+ vote margin Gore would have had without a Nader campaign. The reason the election was so close that a few hundred votes could make a difference is because of the 12k votes Nader siphoned away.

Yeah, third parties can make a difference, and strategic voting matters.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:28 AM on September 30, 2016 [38 favorites]


In Canada in the 2015 we got similar hectoring from both the (socialist) NDP and the (batshit crazy) Greens about how voting for third parties is "bad". The Liberals, under Trudeau, won.

The Greens claimed to be neck-and-neck with the NDP in the polls in my riding, Victoria BC during the last election, so you just had to vote for them if you wanted a chance to send a Green MP to Parliament. They actually lied about their campaign numbers; they were never ahead, and "voting strategically" for them would have been a waste of a vote.

The NDP, which got crushed by the Liberals all across Canada, also hectored people about not voting strategically, even though, in hindsight, it's pretty obvious that the electorate loved and continues to love Justin Trudeau.

I think hectoring people to not vote for a third-party candidate is pathetic and anti-democratic. If people wanted to vote for Ralph Nader, why the hell not?

If you want to vote for a nincompoop like Jill Stein, or a clueless pothead like Gary Johnson, there is little chance of someone talking sense into your brain, anyway.

It's just so arrogant to say to be people that who they intend vote for is "wrong."
posted by My Dad at 10:29 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


I agree with what was said before, voting third party is like anti-vaxxers expecting herd immunity to keep their kids from getting diseases.
posted by zutalors! at 10:30 AM on September 30, 2016 [73 favorites]


Welp, Charlie Pierce managed to scare the living shit out of me again this afternoon. I wonder whether he filed this before or after he read Trump's insane tweetstorm.
posted by holborne at 10:30 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


the huge problem was the 12000+ vote margin Gore would have had without a Nader campaign.

An alternative way to put this might be: the 12000 votes Gore might have gotten by shifting his platform in a more Naderly direction
posted by Greg Nog at 10:32 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


I have to hold out hope for Barron because he's so young, but I am pretty sure he'll turn out like the rest of them. It's weird because by all accounts they've spent so little time with their father, but they've all reacted by trying to suck up for his love, rather than rejecting him.

I very fervently hope that Barron has a nanny/teacher/mentor who genuinely loves and cares about him.

Also this September 2016 article about the "Trump Boys" in Town & Country is sort of completely amazing.
posted by anastasiav at 10:33 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I wonder whether he filed this before or after he read Trump's insane tweetstorm.

Before.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:34 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


DailyBeast: Which Group of People Does Trump Hate the Most?
Not Mexicans, since some (he assumes) are good people. Not Muslims. Not even people with low ratings. It’s women. And it’s his biggest Achilles Heel.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:34 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]



I have to hold out hope for Barron because he's so young, but I am pretty sure he'll turn out like the rest of them. It's weird because by all accounts they've spent so little time with their father, but they've all reacted by trying to suck up for his love, rather than rejecting him.

I very fervently hope that Barron has a nanny/teacher/mentor who genuinely loves and cares about him.


I mean I don't really know, but I feel like Ivana at least is a smart person and probably a caring parent, and it seems like by all accounts that Trump doesn't really raise or even interact with his kids much. And yet. Look at those kids.

But absolutely, best wishes for Barron.
posted by zutalors! at 10:35 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think hectoring people to not vote for a third-party candidate is pathetic and anti-democratic.

When the alternative is George W Bush as Darth Cheney's ventriloquist's dummy or, in this election's case, Literally Hitler, you're going to get some push back on your choices.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:37 AM on September 30, 2016 [46 favorites]


Why are so many people saying "check out the sex tape" in this thread? It's not "check out the sex tape". It's "check out sex tape".

*Goes to Pornhub, searches "cashier"*
posted by dirigibleman at 10:38 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


OK, once again for the record, and for the benefit of anyone who wasn't politically aware back in 2000:

None of the other third-party candidates in 2000 were attracting votes from anyone other than their tiny, tiny blocs of diehard supporters. Nader, on the other hand, was very explicitly held up as a viable third choice for those on the Left who didn't feel represented by either Bush or Gore, and who wanted to protest against the (legitimately broken) two-party, winner-take-all electoral system that we have here in the U.S.

As a result, he got many more votes than a third-party candidate usually gets here, most of which came from people—mostly young voters—who would otherwise have voted for Gore. Bush's margin of victory in 2000 was so small that had Nader not received such a (relatively) outsized proportion of votes, he would definitely have lost the election to Gore.

America would then have avoided one of the most disastrous presidencies in recent history, one that saw a massive explosion in the national debt, normalization of torture as an interrogation tactic, permanent erosion of civil liberties, willfully counterproductive environmental policy, and setbacks for marginalized groups across the country.

The parallels with the role that Gary Johnson and Jill Stein are playing in this election cycle are unavoidable. I was 17 during the 2000 election, but I remember being a principled Nader supporter and I remember many people in my social circle—some of whom were of voting age—felt the same way.

You can be damn sure I'm not going to repeat that mistake again. The stakes are way too high for those kinds of games. The time for fixing the electoral process is between election cycles, not during them. Now is the time to make sure that Donald motherfucking Trump doesn't become our president and flush this country straight down the tubes. End of story.

Principled Leftist voters accidentally fucked this country back in 2000, and as disastrous as Bush II was, Donald Trump looks much, much worse. Don't let's repeat that mistake.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:39 AM on September 30, 2016 [156 favorites]


I'm sure someone's verified his latest tweets came from the Android, but really, "paragon", much less, "paragon of virtue" coming from Trump himself? I have doubts.
posted by klarck at 10:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


The kids may not see much of him, but I'm sure they're raised in a totalitarian-style cult of personality where they're constantly reminded that everything Good and Right in the world comes to them by the grace of Gentle Leader (a.k.a. Dad, CEO).

Also, that T&C article was mostly fawning garbage until: "He probably has normal-sized hands." Fist-bump to that writer.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 10:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump is now every guy that messaged you at 1am saying "u up?" and when you didn't respond right away sent you 3 dozen increasingly-more-unhinged ones calling you a skank and a whore and ugly and a bitch and so on.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 10:42 AM on September 30, 2016 [76 favorites]


I was 17 during the 2000 election, but I remember being a principled Nader supporter and I remember many people in my social circle—some of whom were of voting age—felt the same way.
You can be damn sure I'm not going to repeat that mistake again.


Counterpoint: I actually voted in the 2000 election, in a swing state, for Gore, and I would do it again, BUT I do not give a shit if my fellow-citizens decide to vote third-party; neither Republican nor Democrat is owed any of our votes, and it is not a "mistake" to vote however we would like.
posted by Greg Nog at 10:43 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


An obese, poorly coifed, serial philanderer, alleged child rapist and coke user demands Americans watch a sex tape via 3 am tweet.

Whew OK -- Just smile, laugh and shimmy away folks.
posted by humanfont at 10:43 AM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]




[For fuck's sake, folks, seriously, this is not the thread in which we are going to arm-wrestle to settle once and for all whether people should vote third party. Some of you disagree with each other, and that's okay, but please move on from it in here, and take the reheated arguments to your blogs or social media or whatever.]
posted by cortex at 10:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [73 favorites]


Looks like Deutsche Bank won't need to call in Donald's loans just yet.

DOJ and DB negotiate settlement from $11 Billion down to $5.4 Billion.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:48 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


All the tweets including "paragon" are from Android.
posted by chris24 at 10:48 AM on September 30, 2016


I just realized: this is the first time I can remember Trump exhorting his supporters to use an internet resource for anything other than checking Twitter.

Well, second, after that time he told people to go to Clinton's website while its front page was devoted to fact-checking his debate performance.
posted by ckape at 10:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


after that time he told people to go to Clinton's website while its front page was devoted to fact-checking his debate performance

I thought he was directing people to his site also (which crashed.) Did I miss something?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:57 AM on September 30, 2016


I understood that it could get sold off at auction to help DB pay off fines. Whoever buys it, in that scenario, has a ton of leverage over him.

I have this pleasant fantasy of HRC in the front row of the auction house, just waiting for her chance to bid...
posted by mikelieman at 10:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Which Group of People Does Trump Hate the Most? It's women. And it’s his biggest Achilles Heel.
He doesn't even hate them, he just doesn't think of them as human. More like Fleshlights that say complimentary things to him. And when they don't, he tosses them in the trash and complains about low-quality manufacture.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


Deposition videos
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:59 AM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


ZeusHumms: "I understood that it could get sold off at auction to help DB pay off fines. Whoever buys it, in that scenario, has a ton of leverage over him."

Ah yes, of course. I feel foolish for missing that.

And well, as JoeZydeco points out, this is probably moot now that DB managed to negotiate the DOJ fine down to $5.4B (coincidentally just under the $6B or so they had already set aside in their litigation reserves). However, it's fun to imagine if Trump's debts were bought up by, say, a distressed debt vulture fund.
posted by mhum at 10:59 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I very fervently hope that Barron has a nanny/teacher/mentor who genuinely loves and cares about him.

Ever read Captains Courageous?
posted by Countess Elena at 11:03 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


On the other hand, if DB goes bankrupt or something, would that mean that a big chunk of Trump's debt gets wiped clean?

No. Debts are assignable, and if you as an individual take out a mortgage on a house there's a very good chance you'll get contact - before your first payment is even due - indicating that the debt has been transferred to some other party. Often in the US with loans under 500k that assignment has been to Fannie/Freddie, but it could be anyone. There's a few large players who tend to hold this stuff but for our purposes it's largely irrelevant.

Now, what you might be thinking of is that in the time coming off the CDO madness in the late 2000s there were some tales of folks who fought back on foreclosures with some success because the institutions trying to foreclose couldn't produce valid documentation that they were the actual debt holder. As these mortgages had been sold back and forth willy-nilly and bundled into much larger instruments there had at times been sloppy record keeping and it wasn't always easy to unwind this stuff such that people could prove they held the debt.

Which I phrase carefully to make clear - nobody ever doubted there was a debt, nor the fact that someone had a right to collect on it. The issue is that the legal system requires you be able to verify this fact. It's one of the reasons that if you ever have to deal with a debt collector - particularly someone trying to collect on old "zombie" debt that you've long since forgotten - you ask them for validation. No proof, no ability to force you to pay.

The chances that such documentation doesn't exist for Trump's properties is basically zero.

So were anyone holding one of those notes to go bankrupt, that debt would be sold off as part of the bankruptcy if it was a liquidation. If it was a restructuring maybe they'd get to keep it, maybe it would be sold. If it was sold then the price it fetched would be based in part on how likely it was that the people acquiring it would be able to collect.

You could see some interesting things about Trump properties with debts if there was a filing in American courts that wasn't sealed, but I wouldn't wager on it.
posted by phearlez at 11:05 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ever read Captains Courageous?

There's a musical, too.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:05 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Donald Trump Surrogates Play Up Bill Clinton's Past | Morning Joe | MSNBC

Ghouliani, Newt and Trump: 9 wives between them; reminder of history - GOP attacked the Clintons on past extramarital scandals, and the American people were sympathetic, increasing the public support for Bill and Hillary.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:08 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Anticipation of a New Lovers Arrival, The:
Not that it would validate Trump's attack one bit if a sex tape did exist; I mean, nobody is trying to claim that Machado has never had sex—she's a mother for grief's sake—and it baffles me why it should matter whether or not there is videographic evidence of that. Donald Trump has had sex. Hillary Clinton has had sex. Your mom has had sex, and so has your dad. Most adult humans have. It's a totally normal and generally pretty fun thing to do, plus it's kinda central to the continued existence of our species, so I'm not sure why I'm supposed to have a problem with Machado also doing it.
All the favorites for this comment. And, yes, eponysterial too.
posted by msalt at 11:08 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I thought he was directing people to his site also (which crashed.) Did I miss something?
TRUMP: “And look at her website. You know what? It’s no difference than this. She’s telling us how to fight ISIS. Just go to her website. She tells you how to fight ISIS on her website. I don’t think General Douglas MacArthur would like that too much.”
posted by ckape at 11:09 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]




Ah, I took that as inviting ISIS to look at her site.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:13 AM on September 30, 2016


ISIS also has a very public (and more PR-smart than Trump) website...
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:17 AM on September 30, 2016


Among the comments: "They're all in their rooms reading their courtesy copies of USA Today."

Photo: Lunch time at The DC Trump International Hotel.
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


That deposition Mister Bijou links to is fascinating.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:21 AM on September 30, 2016


Slate's headline about Mefi's Own Scott Adams is a real doozy.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:26 AM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


I understood that it could get sold off at auction to help DB pay off fines. Whoever buys it, in that scenario, has a ton of leverage over him.

OK, MeFi, so if we all pool our money...
(Quick—somebody shoot a MeMail to user 43565.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:28 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


This morning I listened to the most recent episode of Politico's Nerdcast 2016, and they answered a listener question in a way that made me legitimately angry.

The caller wondered why the US media dedicate so little space to actual policy positions of candidates, and specifically why there had been very little media coverage--most notably an absence of live television reports--of Clinton's speech on disability rights in Orlando last week. He asked how callers could reasonably be expected to make informed voting decisions when the media don't give them this information.

Everyone on the Politico team agreed this was a worthwhile point. Regarding the disability rights speech, Charlie Mahtesian acknowledged that it could be deemed historic, since to his knowledge no candidate had ever made disability an election season campaign point.

The problem, he said, was that there wasn't much "there there," if you drilled down. At first I thought he meant that she didn't offer any actual policy specifics, which surprised me given Clinton's wonkiness. He seemed to confirm my assumption when he noted that a considerable amount of her talk in Orlando duplicated her regular stump speech... but then he went on to explain that she had also touched on points such as employment law, education policy, and healthcare.

It turns out that the problem wasn't that she didn't have policy proposals. It's that the ones she offered are allegedly things anyone would agree with. They're uncontroversial. The fact that there are presently no (or insufficient) protections for disability rights in several areas would seem to counter this view, but Mahtesian explained that she didn't announce a big bill for spending $X, or make any other exciting proposal that would make for compelling news coverage. These details would make a difference in the lives of millions of Americans, but they didn't make for good TV.

Most importantly, she didn't take this opportunity to push hard against Donald Trump. Even though--as that WSJ link I shared above pointed out--she's mentioned his mocking of the disabled journalist many times, in this case her campaign decided that slamming Trump would detract from the seriousness of the policy matters she wanted to discuss. And this is what cost her, so that large swathes of the voting public never heard what she had to say. She didn't turn it into a fight. According to Politico, this was an understandable decision but a strategic error. It's not the fault of the media: basically, they said anyone who really cares about this stuff can just look it up, it's just not worth serving to the public without a more exciting hook to hang it on. "Historic foregrounding of disability rights" and "hitting hard on the campaign's core message of inclusiveness" just didn't cut it, I guess.

This is also infuriating because I've been hearing from some of my former-Bernie-supporting friends that Clinton has emphasized negative campaigning too much, without discussing positive reasons to vote for her. When she does push those messages, though, the media ignore her because they're "too boring." Meanwhile, they'll stand around for an hour in front of an empty podium at a hotel infomercial waiting for Trump to maybe, possibly say something of note.

I study the media, I work with and around journalists regularly, so I'm not naïve. Doesn't mean I can't still be angry about how they operate, especially when the stakes are so high.
posted by Superplin at 11:30 AM on September 30, 2016 [152 favorites]


I read the depositions, both the Trump U (abridged) one and the Restaurant one. A couple things: Trump never carries his reading glasses, the original completion date of the DC hotel, according to the press release sent out when it was announced, was late 2015, and--legal experts please clarify if this is a common response--Trump says "I don't know" and "I don't remember" a lot.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 11:30 AM on September 30, 2016


That deposition Mister Bijou links to is fascinating.

Originally I passed it by ( The Zakarian restaurant at the old post office hotel suit from June ), but then after you mentioned this I went back and read it and...

Dude really does have only one shtick doesn't he? And it's terrifying to watch in long-format like this.
posted by mikelieman at 11:32 AM on September 30, 2016


the original completion date of the DC hotel, according to the press release sent out when it was announced, was late 2015

Trump in the debate:
But we're opening the Old Post Office. Under budget, ahead of schedule, saved tremendous money. I'm a year ahead of schedule. And that's what this country should be doing.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:36 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


without drawing the attention of regulators or prosecutors.

Well, there's heavy implication that Trump had some sway with people given the power to conduct investigations and make settlements: city and state comptrollers, people in the attorney general's office. But as I've said here before, the real billionaires of NYC -- and, to be fair, the Clintons -- seem to have considered him a clown, a sideshow, a sometimes-useful distraction, and tolerated him as long as it was only construction workers and contractors and taxpayers getting stiffed, not themselves personally.

(DB's on the bounce. Oversold, shorted, traders working off their own gossip and rumour.)
posted by holgate at 11:38 AM on September 30, 2016


When she does push those messages, though, the media ignore her because they're "too boring." Meanwhile, they'll stand around for an hour in front of an empty podium at a hotel infomercial waiting for Trump to maybe, possibly say something of note.

This is a great point, part of an outstanding comment. I brought up the empty podium in these threads a few weeks ago and was inexplicably mocked for not "understanding the media" who was just giving Trump equal time because that's their job.
posted by zutalors! at 11:39 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Imagine if that debt were purchased by George Soros. The alt-right would go into conspiracy meltdown.
posted by cmfletcher at 11:39 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Angrycat, Ohio's bellwether status is a thing of the past, and the Clinton campaign is concentrating resources elsewhere. Tell your therapist!
posted by salix at 11:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


omg lololol @realdonaldtrump: "For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"
posted by lalex at 11:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


It turns out that the problem wasn't that she didn't have policy proposals. It's that the ones she offered are allegedly things anyone would agree with. They're uncontroversial. The fact that there are presently no (or insufficient) protections for disability rights in several areas would seem to counter this view, but Mahtesian explained that she didn't announce a big bill for spending $X, or make any other exciting proposal that would make for compelling news coverage. These details would make a difference in the lives of millions of Americans, but they didn't make for good TV.

Thanks for articulating that. I watched the speech twice, the second time with my wife, and thought it was great stuff. No big headline-making announcements, but good, common sense policies which would be the foundation for decent legislation that might even make it through the House. More importantly, she gave voice to the challenges faced by Americans with disabilities, and that was remarkable.

And, crickets.

I posted it to social media, which led to a brief but substantive exchange about the problems with the subminimum wage, so at least there was that tiniest of ripples. But otherwise, it was completely obscured by the continuing slow motion train wreck of the Trump show.
posted by vverse23 at 11:42 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


If Clinton's disability rights proposals were really so uncontroversial, then surely we wouldn't see Congress go into a freakout about the costs and the rights of businesses to discriminate and the trouble of all those burdensome regulations, right?
posted by zachlipton at 11:43 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


Browsing Google News headlines about the Machado story, and they are nearly unanimously negative re: Trump. Except, of course, Fox News:
Miss Universe Alicia Machado accused of threatening to kill judge in late '90s
FFS
posted by zakur at 11:44 AM on September 30, 2016


omg lololol @realdonaldtrump: "For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

Someone should tell him the White House has people to answer calls for him.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:45 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


All I know is that the first candidate who will take action to put real Canadian poutine in all American restaurants gets my vote.

PRIORITIES, PEOPLE.
posted by delfin at 11:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


good, common sense policies which would be the foundation for decent legislation that might even make it through the House

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, man. Can y'all just imagine the obstructionism from congressional Republicans that Hillary will have to face when she becomes president? It's going to make the eight-year-long tantrum that they've been throwing against Obama look like a happy-go-lucky sing-a-long. The wailing and screaming will be heard across the land.

This shit doesn't end in November, not by a long shot.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


omg lololol @realdonaldtrump: "For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

Does he think the President frequently receives 3am phone calls with requests to insult woman and minorities, or would that be a new program his administration would introduce?

"Mr. President. We need you in the situation room immediately. There's a totally unsubstantiated rumor going around a woman you found unattractive made a sex tape. We're thinking you can introduce it before the networks air it live while you review these plans to bomb the country she came from." [fake]
posted by zachlipton at 11:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [35 favorites]


I'd be interested in the evangelical Trumpster reaction to their favoured candidate's request for them to view pornography.

Is that part of the 25 percent of Donald that is bad, but will be helped by the good people gathering around him? Or are they gathering around him to look at what's playing on his phone?
posted by Devonian at 11:48 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Can y'all just imagine the obstructionism from congressional Republicans that Hillary will have to face when she becomes president?

One of the biggest things that drew me to her over Bernie in the primaries is that I think she understands this very well and will go in knowing that everything will be a horrible fight. I think a big part of what went wrong in the first four years especially of Obama was his failure to comprehend what he was up against in Congress.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:48 AM on September 30, 2016 [48 favorites]


@realdonaldtrump: For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

Tweet of the year, hands down.
posted by dis_integration at 11:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


... Clinton has emphasized negative campaigning too much, without discussing positive reasons to vote for her. When she does push those messages, though, the media ignore her because they're "too boring."

Sexist tightrope-walking twirling demands, part MCMDLXIV.
posted by Dashy at 11:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


The Four Donald Trumps You Meet on Earth
…Trump’s misogyny is shocking because it’s so brazen, but it’s infuriating because it’s so familiar. Chances are, if you’re a woman in 2016, you’ve heard it all before.

* * *

The first time you meet Donald Trump, he’s an older male relative who smells like cigarettes and asks when you are going to lose that weight. You’re 9 years old. Your parents have to go out and buy a bottle of vodka for him before he arrives. His name is Dick. No, really, it is. At dinner one night, he explains to you that black people are dangerous. “If you turn around, they’ll put a knife in your back.” Except Bill Cosby. “He’s one of the good ones.” Turns out he’s wrong about Cosby and everything else, but the statute of limitations on Dick’s existence on Earth will run out before that information is widely available.

The next time you meet Donald Trump you’re in high school.…
posted by Lexica at 11:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [63 favorites]


zachlipton: If Clinton's disability rights proposals were really so uncontroversial, then surely we wouldn't see Congress go into a freakout about the costs and the rights of businesses to discriminate and the trouble of all those burdensome regulations, right?

Right? As I continue to reflect, I realize that if there is no "other side" where journalists can look for opposing viewpoints, or something for pundits to debate concern troll over with even a veneer of plausibility, then they're just not interested.

If she'd attached a dollar figure, then there would have been something for vultures to fight over. But regulatory changes that in some cases don't even require spending allocations and have broad, bipartisan appeal aren't worth bothering with.
posted by Superplin at 11:50 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!

"Tweaked out of my mind."
posted by chris24 at 11:51 AM on September 30, 2016 [21 favorites]


I guess my only question at this point is whether I should check out sex tape
posted by beerperson at 11:51 AM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


I got to the point in the Post Office deposition where
Q But my question is, do you understand that
there is a duty of good faith and fair dealing
that's implied on to the part of both parties in
every lease deal?

A I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I
want a fair deal. I just don't know what the lease
says.
and I started feeling sad for Donnie. I mean, it's Real Estate Law 101 he's spacing out over here...
posted by mikelieman at 11:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


tonycpsu: "Someone should tell him the White House has people to answer calls for him."

Or that they take your phone away from you when you become president and give you one that has 90% of its functionality disabled and the certainly don't let you tweet unvetted messages at 3AM.
posted by octothorpe at 11:55 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


Can't check out sex tape. Can't find cashier in sex hardware store.
posted by PlusDistance at 11:55 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


@realdonaldtrump: For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

Right as he drops his Movement into the toilet...
posted by SillyShepherd at 11:58 AM on September 30, 2016


Someone on Twitter has pointed out that 3am NYC is 10am Russia.

I am torn between hysterical sobbing and hysterical laughter.
posted by like_neon at 11:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


Well, Randy Quaid has made his official endorsement.
(!!! DO NOT CLICK IF YOU VALUE SANITY !!!)
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:03 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm surprised Randy Quaid isn't supporting Gary Johnson.
posted by pxe2000 at 12:03 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I would bet money that the reason Alicia Machado is sure a sore spot for Trump is that she wouldn't sleep with him.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:04 PM on September 30, 2016 [62 favorites]


Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The: Can y'all just imagine the obstructionism from congressional Republicans that Hillary will have to face when she becomes president?

I definitely agree, and expect to see hot words and fiery language. Could we call that flaming passion.....
( ∙_∙)

   ( ∙_∙)>⌐■-■

       (⌐■_■)
Trumpster Fire?
posted by wenestvedt at 12:05 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well, Randy Quaid has made his official endorsement.
(!!! DO NOT CLICK IF YOU VALUE SANITY !!!)


I should have listened.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 12:07 PM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]




Clinton calls for new National Service Reserve during Florida swing:
Hillary Clinton on Friday called for the creation of a National Service Reserve, an initiative she said would allow 5 million mostly young people to serve their cities and states on a wide array of projects on a part-time basis.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:08 PM on September 30, 2016 [56 favorites]


Well, Randy Quaid has made his official endorsement.

I can't tell if Randy Quaid is doing better or doing worse than the last time I investigated what he was up to (which was, if I remember correctly, running from the law and the "Hollywood star whackers" he thought were trying to have him killed).
posted by infinitywaltz at 12:08 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump will also demand that the moon is made of cheese.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:09 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Reading through the details, that national civic service plan is great, but my libertarian husband is going to freak out.
posted by stolyarova at 12:09 PM on September 30, 2016


That's really interesting, kirkaracha. Depending on what kind of projects the National Service Reserve ends up taking on, I might very well be interested in joining.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:10 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I would bet money that the reason Alicia Machado is sure a sore spot for Trump is that she wouldn't sleep with him.

I'm firmly convinced of this as well. I mean, there's no way he didn't view the Miss Universe pageant as a pool of potential mistresses, right?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:12 PM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


Wow. The National Service Reserve is a wonderful, wonderful idea.
posted by Dashy at 12:12 PM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


my libertarian husband is going to freak out

I never understood this, especially with those in the military and veterans. Is it about it not being "honorable" or "patriotic" or something like that? Limiting service to one's country strictly to war seems like a horrible thing to ask for.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:15 PM on September 30, 2016 [28 favorites]


It's about the fear that it will be made compulsory.
posted by stolyarova at 12:16 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


"The interview with Ellmers, which took place on MSNBC, is a fantastic demonstration of how indefensible Trump’s behavior has been in this instance and how impossible it is for surrogates to even attempt to mount such a defense. Still, Ellmers tried her best and completely embarrassed herself in doing so. She basically blamed Clinton for Trump’s response and then said this: “Donald Trump is setting the record straight and he's using social media. That's the kind of president we need."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:16 PM on September 30, 2016


FTFA:
Hillary Clinton's new endeavor would be modeled after the Armed Forces Reserves, which allows participants "to make a high-impact contribution, while still building careers and pursuing their dreams in other ways," she said.

After receiving some "basic training," those in the services reserves could be called upon to help respond to natural disasters, public health campaigns or other projects.

"Some of those assignments will be just a few days, a month," Clinton said. "Some might be longer-term. But they will all directly address a vital need in your community."
This kind of reminds me of Thomas P.M. Barnett's "sysadmin force" idea from "The Pentagon's New Map" a dozen years ago, where the DoD could pivot part of its effort from fighting shooting wars and instead into building new, good things (albeit in other countries).

I love the idea of national service. Extending existing programs for forgiving the student loans of inner-city teachers into other skills and parts of America is an awesome idea.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:17 PM on September 30, 2016 [25 favorites]


On one side of the equation, it is my civic duty to check out the sex tape. On the other side of the equation, I've heard masturbation causes your hands to shrink.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:17 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


omg lololol @realdonaldtrump: "For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

That's funny. I mean, it's not, like, comedy gold, but it demonstrates a basic self-aware sense of humor; it's a good tweet.

It makes me sad whenever you see glimpses of the real human being caged up inside a narcissist.
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:18 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Just wait for people to call it a network of socialist indoctrination camps in 3...2...1.

Just look at the visceral hate for AmeriCorps, not because the program sometimes has problems and could use reform, but by people who are furious it was allowed to happen at all.
posted by zachlipton at 12:20 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


New Clinton Spanish-Language Ad Highlights 'First-Time' Voters Opposing Trump:
A concerted Spanish-language ad push from the Clinton campaign is underway, with two cuts of an ad highlighting first-time voters set to begin airing on television and digitally in all 50 states.

But the first-time voters the campaign is interested in highlighting aren’t just young voters — though they are included, too — but new citizens and Republicans crossing over to vote for a Democrat for the first time because of the specter of Donald Trump.
At the end she says, "Soy Hillary Clinton, and I approve this message." It doesn't have to be in English; George W. Bush's Spanish-language ads ended with "Soy George W. Bush y aprobé este mensaje." I know she dosn't speak Spanish, but maybe Tim Kaine could give her some pointers.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:21 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm glad Hillary Clinton isn't making her policy decisions based on what crazy people might say about them.
posted by theodolite at 12:21 PM on September 30, 2016 [23 favorites]


I would like to DEMAND tonight that 'president' Obama not strap all Evangelicals to an Elon Musk rocket and shoot them to the moon, if this does not happen later then YOU'RE WELCOME
posted by beerperson at 12:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


So, you're awake at 3am to take calls from Russia. Got it.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's about the fear that it will be made compulsory.

Like the Peace Corp, AmeriCorps, and the military?
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


> "I mean, it's not, like, comedy gold, but it demonstrates a basic self-aware sense of humor; it's a good tweet."

I don't think he's joking.
posted by kyrademon at 12:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


It wasn't that long ago that the military was compulsory. The Selective Service is still a thing.
posted by stolyarova at 12:23 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Wow. The National Service Reserve is a wonderful, wonderful idea.

You're now a Marine.

Next!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:23 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


it demonstrates a basic self-aware sense of humor; it's a good tweet

I don't think he meant it to be funny at all. He earnestly believes that his obsessive late-night Twitter binges proves he's more presidential than Clinton, who sleeps sometimes.
posted by neroli at 12:23 PM on September 30, 2016 [20 favorites]


It's about the fear that it will be made compulsory.

Like the Peace Corp, AmeriCorps, and the military?


Well, one of those (the one that this thing is explicitly being modeled on) kind of still is...
posted by Etrigan at 12:25 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'd love it if absolutely 100% of Hillary's future advertisements were in Spanish.
posted by odinsdream at 12:25 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


I mean, I think I can sell him on it if I pitch it as a way to give young people jobs and experience, plus help fix local issues (damaged infrastructure etc.). But the name - "National Service Reserve" - is going to set off some post-Soviet alarm bells in his head.
posted by stolyarova at 12:25 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't think he meant it to be funny at all. He earnestly believes that his obsessive late-night Twitter binges proves he's more presidential than Clinton, who sleeps sometimes.

"Crooked Hillary Clinton doesn't make enough money to sustain a 24/7 amphetamine habit! Sad!"
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:25 PM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


You're now a Marine.

Like Namor!
posted by beerperson at 12:26 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Forget drug use, can we blame Trump's behavior on sleep deprivation?
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:26 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


You're now a Marine.

Of all the branches, the Marines are the ones I respect. er. Most respect.
posted by mikelieman at 12:27 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


omg lololol @realdonaldtrump: "For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

*ring ring*
*ring ring*
*ring ring*
TRUMP: Meredith, answer the goddamn phone!
MEREDITH: But Mr. Trump that's the red phone with the direct line to the Kremlin and--
TRUMP: Sometimes Putin has a few too many Stolis and calls to sing show tunes. You deal with it.
MEREDITH: Gee Mr. Trump I sure do like show tunes.
posted by Mayor West at 12:27 PM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


It's about the fear that it will be made compulsory.

That sounds kind of like the inverse of the libertarian complaints about safety nets via taxes vs. via charity, which they cling to despite centuries of it not actually panning out.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:27 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Perhaps he's on the same stuff as McAfee.
posted by cell divide at 12:28 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Opposing conscription isn't exclusively a libertarian thing.
posted by stolyarova at 12:29 PM on September 30, 2016


Clinton calls for new National Service Reserve during Florida swing:

I'd sign up for this the day it launched, I honestly would. I remember learning about the Civilian Conservation Corps and being SO MAD that it didn't still exist.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:29 PM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


Forget drug use, can we blame Trump's behavior on sleep deprivation?

Tweakers gonna tweak, and there's nothing any of us can do about it.
posted by mikelieman at 12:30 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Just look at the visceral hate for AmeriCorps, not because the program sometimes has problems and could use reform, but by people who are furious it was allowed to happen at all.

What if we went the Swiss route, and said that everyone has to do a year in the military or a year in the service corps? Not only would it jam up the political will to use the military to solve every problem, but it would also let us crash the unstoppable-force of military-fetishization among the alt-right into the immovable-object of contempt for public works.
posted by Mayor West at 12:30 PM on September 30, 2016 [25 favorites]


I mean, I completely understand opposing conscription, but going from National Service Reserve to SOVIET RUSSIA is a bit of a leap.
posted by lydhre at 12:30 PM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


Actually, this is kind of what I'm worried HRC's successful reactivation of Democratic patriotism might lead to - a world in which both left and right agree that conscription into the service of a nation is a patriotic duty rather than an essential violation of human rights.
posted by stolyarova at 12:31 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I've liked the idea of national service for a long time. My dad was in the Army during the draft era, and I envied that fact that men his age from all over the United States had that in common. He could meet someone anywhere and they could compare notes about which branch they served in and where they served. I didn't necessarily envy the military aspect of it--he was a tactical nuclear officer in West Germany during the Berlin Wall Crisis--but the shared experience aspect of it.

I think a big part of racism is not being exposed to different people. I've heard enough stories of people meeting people of different races and backgrounds in the military or on college and professional sports teams and changing their attitudes that I believe it'd be beneficial on a national level. Actually being in it together makes you feel like you're all in it together.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:31 PM on September 30, 2016 [36 favorites]


lalex: omg lololol @realdonaldtrump: "For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

What is he now, Batman? He really turned up the America as Gotham, the "doomed city can only be saved by me," plot to 11.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:31 PM on September 30, 2016




Nobody has been drafted in 43 years. Everybody can chill out.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 12:32 PM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


New Clinton Spanish-Language Ad Highlights 'First-Time' Voters Opposing Trump:

Have you ever alguna vez found that suddenly habia muy polvoriento for no razon?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:33 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Opposing conscription isn't exclusively a libertarian thing.

Fully agree, but this sounds pretty far from being that.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 12:33 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump: In case you Undecided's haven't seen REPULSIVE Machado sex tape: (link to torrent file)

Jeb: please seed
posted by Taft at 12:33 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


@BernieSanders: It's pretty telling that Donald Trump thinks the problem with his sexist tweets is the time that they were sent.
posted by chris24 at 12:33 PM on September 30, 2016 [52 favorites]


As proposed, the National Service Reserve looks like an excellent idea. Mission creep and HRC's deep nationalistic/patriotic/civic belief that every citizen should serve their country (as stated in It Takes a Village, which I'm reading right now) could easily lead the NSR to become... more.
posted by stolyarova at 12:33 PM on September 30, 2016


I remember learning about the Civilian Conservation Corps and being SO MAD that it didn't still exist.

When Obama took office I wanted a revised WPA to give unemployed people jobs and rebuild infrastructure.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:34 PM on September 30, 2016 [31 favorites]


Also, my husband grew up in literal Soviet Russia, and his family moving to the United States saved him from compulsory service in the Belarussian armed forces. So yeah, the idea of compulsory civic service is kind of a bugaboo.
posted by stolyarova at 12:35 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I mean, it's not, like, comedy gold, but it demonstrates a basic self-aware sense of humor; it's a good tweet.

If the tweet's intention was to be self-deprecatingly funny, it must have been sent from an iPhone. If meant in earnest, Android.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:35 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


The National Service Reserve reminds me of an old David Graeber essay about why so many soldiers talk about philanthropy as their motivation for enlisting:
...Why do working-class Bush voters tend to resent intellectuals more than they do the rich? It seems to me that the answer is simple. They can imagine a scenario in which they might become rich but cannot possibly imagine one in which they, or any of their children, would become members of the intelligentsia. If you think about it, this is not an unreasonable assessment. A mechanic from Nebraska knows it is highly unlikely that his son or daughter will ever become an Enron executive. But it is possible. There is virtually no chance, however, that his child, no matter how talented, will ever become an international human-rights lawyer or a drama critic for the New York Times. Here we need to remember not just the changes in higher education but also the role of unpaid, or effectively unpaid, internships. It has become a fact of life in the United States that if one chooses a career for any reason other than the salary, for the first year or two one will not be paid. This is certainly true if one wishes to be involved in altruistic pursuits: say, to join the world of charities, or NGOs, or to become a political activist. But it is equally true if one wants to pursue values like Beauty or Truth: to become part of the world of books, or the art world, or an investigative reporter. The custom effectively seals off such a career for any poor student who actually does attain a liberal arts education. Such structures of exclusion had always existed, of course, especially at the top, but in recent decades fences have become fortresses.

If that mechanic’s daughter wishes to pursue something higher, more noble, for a career, what options does she really have? Likely just two: She can seek employment at her local church, which is hard to get. Or she can join the army.
posted by theodolite at 12:36 PM on September 30, 2016 [26 favorites]


Obama could casually mention that he has no intention of pardoning Trump at any point.
posted by drezdn at 12:36 PM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]




What is he now, Batman? He really turned up the America as Gotham, the "doomed city can only be saved by me," plot to 11.

MEANWHILE, AT STATELY TRUMP TOWER...
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:38 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


cell divide: Perhaps he's on the same stuff as McAfee.
Three years later, Men’s Journal writer Stephen Rodrick visited McAfee at his home in Tennessee, where McAfee dragged him outside to show him proof that he was being shadowed by hit men from a Mexican cartel. “All they eat is cream cheese,” McAfee told him, scanning the leaf litter in the woods. “I find cream cheese packets everywhere. If there’s cream cheese, I know the cartel has been here.”
And that's the fun part of the psychosis. Thanks, McAfee, I've added another drug to my "never, ever, ever try" list.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:39 PM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


"For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!


Did his medical report mention his prostrate?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:40 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


@realdonaldtrump: "For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

Yeah right, like you'd put down that radio before you're totally done taking it apart.
posted by phearlez at 12:40 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Probably a good place to link to James' "The Moral Equivalent of War".
Let me illustrate my idea more concretely. There is nothing to make one indignant in the mere fact that life is hard, that men should toil and suffer pain. The planetary conditions once for all are such, and we can stand it. But that so many men, by mere accidents of birth and opportunity, should have a life of nothing else but toil and pain and hardness and inferiority imposed upon them, should have no vacation, while others natively no more deserving never get any taste of this campaigning life at all, — this is capable of arousing indignation in reflective minds. It may end by seeming shameful to all of us that some of us have nothing but campaigning, and others nothing but unmanly ease. If now — and this is my idea — there were, instead of military conscription, a conscription of the whole youthful population to form for a certain number of years a part of the army enlisted against Nature, the injustice would tend to be evened out, and numerous other goods to the commonwealth would remain blind as the luxurious classes now are blind, to man's relations to the globe he lives on, and to the permanently sour and hard foundations of his higher life. To coal and iron mines, to freight trains, to fishing fleets in December, to dishwashing, clotheswashing, and windowwashing, to road-building and tunnel-making, to foundries and stoke-holes, and to the frames of skyscrapers, would our gilded youths be drafted off, according to their choice, to get the childishness knocked out of them, and to come back into society with healthier sympathies and soberer ideas. They would have paid their blood-tax, done their own part in the immemorial human warfare against nature; they would tread the earth more proudly, the women would value them more highly, they would be better fathers and teachers of the following generation.
posted by klarck at 12:41 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Point made. HRC has found a way to use Patriotism! to make the left defend conscription as a Moral Good.
posted by stolyarova at 12:42 PM on September 30, 2016


I would not defend conscription, for the record, even to civil service. I do applaud the notion of rolling out a nationally coordinated and broadly accessible program for it, though.
posted by Superplin at 12:44 PM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


Actually, this is kind of what I'm worried HRC's successful reactivation of Democratic patriotism might lead to - a world in which both left and right agree that conscription into the service of a nation is a patriotic duty rather than an essential violation of human rights.

I think there's a fundamental split on the left that would prevent that from being the case (and with good reason, too).

As proposed, the National Service Reserve looks like an excellent idea. Mission creep and HRC's deep nationalistic/patriotic/civic belief that every citizen should serve their country (as stated in It Takes a Village, which I'm reading right now) could easily lead the NSR to become... more.

I'm not exactly sure what "mission creep" could occur, though. Conscription came about because of military threats. Unless, say, every dam in the US suddenly was simultaneously in imminent danger of bursting, there's no analog for other kinds of public service. As for HRC's belief, "should" does not mean "must," and I honestly think she means it more as guidelines than actual rules. A lot of government workers see themselves--rightly, IMO--as performing their duties as a civil service to the country, which is why a lot of libertarian complaints about (and in the case of a lot of conservatives, stirring violence against) government workers seem really nasty and divisive. Seeing as how she's been involved in working for the government for such a long time, I have no reason to believe that she or any currently-serving civilian Democrat thinks otherwise.

It is, however, exactly the kind of thing I'd be worried about someone like Trump who hasn't spent any time working for the government. It'd also be worrying coming from someone like a Paul Ryan or Ted Cruz, who believe only their work is worthwhile but that of most government workers is parasitic or even dangerous.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:45 PM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


Yeah, tweeting at 3AM somehow became identified as "dynamic leader doesn't need much sleep" rather than "gets up to pee a couple times a night and tweets while he's at it". It's all front with this one.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 12:46 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Point made. HRC has found a way to use Patriotism! to make the left defend conscription as a Moral Good.

That's your shadow, not another boxer.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:46 PM on September 30, 2016 [84 favorites]


What is he now, Batman?

To quote myself from Twitter:

"One is a rich fascist with anger mgmt. issues, the other is a hypercompetent strategist prepared for anything. Together they are Batman."
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 12:47 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Point made. HRC has found a way to use Patriotism! to make the left defend conscription as a Moral Good.

Oh, come on. Nobody is making that argument.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:47 PM on September 30, 2016 [37 favorites]


Ya know, the real danger of the Agriculture Department and the FDA is that one day they could start forcing us to eat healthy.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 12:47 PM on September 30, 2016 [31 favorites]


Yeah, tweeting at 3AM somehow became identified as "dynamic leader doesn't need much sleep" rather than "gets up to pee a couple times a night and tweets while he's at it". It's all front with this one.

He's bragged about how little he sleeps a ton of times though. That's one of the reasons these amphetamine rumors keep cropping up. I really wouldn't be surprised if he actually doesn't go to sleep before 3 most nights.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:48 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Superplin, as noted, I agree with the idea - it would be great for repairing infrastructure and helping young people get a solid start in life. But I'd be vastly comforted if it were paired with a complete elimination of any future possibility of the Draft.

Pope Guilty, did you not read that essay klarck linked to?
posted by stolyarova at 12:48 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I pretty much despise Trump. He stands for everything I think is Wrong - he's a 1%er, oppresses women, non-whites, the handicapped, Muslims, and presumably many other groups. His thinking and behavior are exactly what led to the Great Recession. The hypocrisy of a fat old guy being horrible about a woman who put on some weight - like, about 15 pounds or so - is nasty. His hypocrisy calling her crooked Hillary when he's done business in Cuba, doesn't pay workers (fraud, theft of service), says she's ill and then sniffles into his mic, questions the Clinton Foundation when his foundation is clearly sketchy, etc., kind of blows my mind. I can only assume any observers of the election assume the US is collectively mentally ill.

The only thing about him I've appreciated, at all, is that he's known to not drink or use drugs because that's what killed his brother. There is no evidence that he's using cocaine or other drugs. It's a nasty smear. Criticizing him is so easy. He provides so much material on a daily basis that any competent journalist should be insanely busy. Let's not smear him without documentation.
posted by theora55 at 12:48 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Unless, say, every dam in the US suddenly was simultaneously in imminent danger of bursting, there's no analog for other kinds of public service.

Can we please stop talking about Donald's prostate?!
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:48 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wait, I'm supposed to be defending conscription as a Moral Good now? I didn't get that memo. When did this happen?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:49 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


is that he's known to not drink or use drugs because that's what killed his brother.

There is no evidence that Donald Trump doesn't drink or do drugs, either.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:49 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Pope Guilty, did you not read that essay klarck linked to?

The one written 106 years ago by this guy?
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:51 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


There is no evidence that Donald Trump isn't a hundred and forty lobsters in an orange Hefty bag
posted by beerperson at 12:51 PM on September 30, 2016 [55 favorites]




I'm surprised Randy Quaid isn't supporting Gary Johnson.

I'm surprised he isn't Vermin Supreme's running mate.
posted by rocket88 at 12:52 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald, there's this thing I keep seeing advertised on tv called prosvent, it's probably a scam, but I figure that if it is, you'd appreciate the hustle.
posted by drezdn at 12:52 PM on September 30, 2016


"he's known to not drink or use drugs because that's what killed his brother. There is no evidence that he's using cocaine or other drugs. It's a nasty smear."

They're not "drugs" if a doctor prescribes them. I can 100% believe that Trump would justify amphetamine use by using this logic.
posted by komara at 12:53 PM on September 30, 2016 [20 favorites]


WaPo: Can ‘SNL’ take down Donald Trump? Is it going to try?
“The mainstream media and specifically NBC has gone too easy on Trump,” said Anthony Atamanuik, who toured America and Europe with a surreal, dark Trump impression and has optimistically planned a “last rally” for the character on Nov. 3. “I’ll sound like Trump for a second: ‘There’s something going on with NBC and Trump.’ ”

Added Andy Richter, Conan O’Brien’s sidekick on his TBS talk show: “Watching his hair get tousled was a bit more shocking than seeing him host SNL. Back when he hosted SNL, it was questionable. Now, treating him in the same way that you treat Judge Judy would seem irresponsible. It’s not funny anymore. There’s just too much blatant white supremacy being enabled by this campaign.”
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:53 PM on September 30, 2016 [35 favorites]


There is no evidence that Donald Trump isn't a hundred and forty lobsters in an orange Hefty bag

Did you mean void crabs?
posted by stolyarova at 12:54 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


WaPo: Can ‘SNL’ take down Donald Trump? Is it going to try?

They have Alec Baldwin playing him. I have a feeling he's going to try, even if the cue cards don't.
posted by Etrigan at 12:56 PM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


hello is there anything at all suggesting this National Service thing isn't completely voluntary or is the conscription thing just a totally made up bugbear
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:58 PM on September 30, 2016 [44 favorites]


I'd be vastly comforted if it were paired with a complete elimination of any future possibility of the Draft.

She repeatedly mentions it as a volunteer program and compares it to similar volunteer programs. By this metric, she should also be telling people she's not going to nationalize every job.

Please please please, left, remember the importance of civil rights.

Again, no one touting the volunteer service plan is asking for, supporting, or doing anything else to make this compulsory.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:58 PM on September 30, 2016 [31 favorites]


Please please please, left, remember the importance of civil rights. You already gave up with the NSA, even though it was TREASON! when Bush engaged in warrantless wiretapping of a few phones. And now HRC wants an Intelligence Surge and nobody here even squeaks about it. :(

You are the one who brought up conscription. Not Hillary Clinton. Not other MeFites. You. You brought it up as though it were a real possibility under consideration and have been freaking out at people about it and talking like Hillary Clinton proposed it and has somehow persuaded MeFites to endorse it. You are swinging at shadows that you are casting.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:58 PM on September 30, 2016 [76 favorites]


stolyarova: "Mission creep and HRC's deep nationalistic/patriotic/civic belief that every citizen should serve their country (as stated in It Takes a Village, which I'm reading right now) could easily lead the NSR to become... more."

One other thing to keep in mind: this does not appear to me to be the kind of thing a president can push through unilaterally. Something like this would have to go through congress, most likely controlled by the Republicans. Checks and balances and all that. I mean, as good an idea as an NSR might or might not be, it doesn't even exist yet and there's really no guarantee that it will ever exist, given Republican control of congress. Hell, congress can barely pass a budget to keep the lights on. And recall that their first order of business when Obama was first elected was to ensure that he'd be a one-term president by blocking every single thing he wanted. Do we think that they'd be more receptive to a Clinton administration?
posted by mhum at 12:58 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I remember the first time Donald hosted SNL - it was a pretty blatant way to get him comfortable live in the same studio that would be used a week later for the live finale of the first season of the Apprentice.

The other time, last year, well, from time to time, some NBC exec pulls a bunch of strings to get a friend in as host. Sometimes, it goes well. Other times, we have Donald Trump.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:58 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


It would take a literal act of Congress to bring back any kind of draft. No one serious is proposing this.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 12:59 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


I like how the relief that arrived with the glory of Monday evening and subsequent brilliant polling numbers has brought out some of the best goofiness of Metafilter.
posted by angrycat at 12:59 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


WaPo: Can ‘SNL’ take down Donald Trump? Is it going to try?

I know Lorne Michaels thinks about these issues in a serious way. He and Ferrell have said they thought Ferrell's Bush impression was a major factor in the election because it humanized his good ol' boy stupidity and made him seem likable. I can't imagine Alec Baldwin would sign on for a soft touch approach to Trump. We'll see. I'll definitely be watching.
posted by dis_integration at 12:59 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Look, just as soon as somebody starts seriously arguing for an expansion of the draft or for national service to be made mandatory, I will be out on the streets with a sign and a megaphone, I promise you. But given that nobody has made such a proposition or even hinted that they would like to make one, raising that specter sounds honestly a little paranoid.

I am 100% against the draft, even the vestigial version that we currently have. Firm opposition. But I'm definitely in favor of our government providing an opportunity for citizens to do useful work for the public good on a totally voluntary basis. I did Americorps when I was younger, and I found it to be a great experience where I was able to do some real good. I would jump at the chance to do that kind of work on an ongoing, part-time basis.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:59 PM on September 30, 2016 [35 favorites]


They're not "drugs" if a doctor prescribes them. I can 100% believe that Trump would justify amphetamine use by using this logic.

This. And there actually is evidence that he was a patient of a notorious amphetamine-pushing Dr. Feelgood "weight loss doctor" in the past. I can think of no better reason that he'd have a random freaky-deaky gastroenterologist as his primary care physician than that dude will fill your phentermine scripts on demand with no questions asked.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:00 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


boy is bringing up this imaginary conscription thing a way to ruin a good intention and also ask HRC to fix all the things, RIGHT NOW.

"yea it's cool and all but why hasn't she eliminated the draft yet?"
posted by zutalors! at 1:00 PM on September 30, 2016 [27 favorites]


You're right, Pope Guilty, mhum, et. al., and I'm sorry. Conscription scares the shit out of me and the thing I like least about HRC (and Obama's presidency) is the abandonment of the Civil Rights left - prosecution of whistleblowers, ramping up the surveillance state, and so on.

Put me in a basket with Noam Chomsky and Larry Lessig, I guess.
posted by stolyarova at 1:01 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


He's bragged about how little he sleeps a ton of times though. That's one of the reasons these amphetamine rumors keep cropping up. I really wouldn't be surprised if he actually doesn't go to sleep before 3 most nights.

I wonder what time he wakes up. What a strange guy.

Regarding SNL, he's beyond parody. He's unmockable. I don't think SNL can do anything about it.
posted by cell divide at 1:02 PM on September 30, 2016


But really it was that William James article that set me off. Because that's exactly the kind of rhetoric that would be used to justify this kind of conscription. :(
posted by stolyarova at 1:03 PM on September 30, 2016


Pope Guilty, did you not read that essay klarck linked to? The one written 106 years ago by this guy?

That's what frightens me most about Hillary Clinton. That she'll dig up William James and conscript him in to National Service.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:04 PM on September 30, 2016 [40 favorites]


Regarding SNL, he's beyond parody. He's unmockable. I don't think SNL can do anything about it.

Except walkout en masse before (or during) the live broadcast.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:04 PM on September 30, 2016


Put me in a basket with Noam Chomsky and Larry Lessig, I guess.

The basket of intellectuals.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 1:05 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


I guess I'm that rare lefty pacifist who is not opposed to a draft (with a "nat'l service instead of military" option) -- I really think it would decrease the number of non-US casualties worldwide. Currently the 1%-ers don't have any skin in the game, their kids are not going to die in far-off lands.

Regardless, if this National Service Reserve thing happens, I will sign up! (Assuming they let middle-aged guys join.)
posted by phliar at 1:05 PM on September 30, 2016 [20 favorites]


Halp me metafilter! Election-related ethical dilemma: I'm in a crowded airport trying to charge my phone, no outlets to be found. Guy wearing Hillary for Prison T shirt brought his own extension cord to the airport and offered to let me charge. Use Electrical Outlet of Misogyny, or spend hours unable to read this thread?
posted by medusa at 1:05 PM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


That's what frightens me most about Hillary Clinton. That she'll dig up William James and conscript him in to National Service.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:04 PM on September 30


eponysterical
posted by Salieri at 1:05 PM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


I donated to Clinton's campaign again today because when the FEC releases the monthly report for September it will be the last report before the election. I want September to be a great month with lots of visible support for her.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:06 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm expecting a repeat of the "actor just reads the words the moron candidate actually said" bit from Sarah Palin's interview, only with exaggerated reaction shots from whoever plays Hillary and Lester Holt.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:06 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Use Electrical Outlet of Misogyny, or spend hours unable to read this thread?

I say use it. Fuck the patriarchy by stealing their power, literally in this case.
posted by palomar at 1:07 PM on September 30, 2016 [50 favorites]



Here's a lighthearded moment for you. "Bill, let's go!" Pres. Obama beckons former Pres. Bill Clinton to board Air Force One after funeral of Shimon Peres


What are the odds that at this or any other time Obama was thinking, I'm glad I'm not married to this dude. Or being president for the next eight years, actually. Better you than me, Hillary
posted by angrycat at 1:07 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Huh: New press release from the Commission on Presidential Debates:
Statement about first debate
Sep 30, 2016
Regarding the first debate, there were issues regarding Donald Trump's audio that affected the sound level in the debate hall.
That's the full text of the statement. There's so little to go on with that that I wish they'd elected to say nothing at all, or else said a lot more, because it's rather unclear what it actually means.
posted by cjelli at 1:08 PM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


Yeah, use the juice to order up some Hillary Clinton swag.
posted by notyou at 1:08 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I guess I'm that rare lefty pacifist who is not opposed to a draft (with a "nat'l service instead of military" option) -- I really think it would decrease the number of non-US casualties worldwide. Currently the 1%-ers don't have any skin in the game, their kids are not going to die in far-off lands.

I get where you're going with this but historically the children of the rich either get exempted or they go into, for example, the Texas Air National Guard. They only go into combat if, like John Kerry, they really, really want to.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:09 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm expecting a repeat of the 'actor just reads the words the moron candidate actually said' bit from Sarah Palin's interview, only with exaggerated reaction shots from whoever plays Hillary and Lester Holt.

And sniffling. Lots and lots of sniffling.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:09 PM on September 30, 2016


Using the rationale Ayn Rand did when she cashed her Social Security checks:
Social Security is not voluntary. Your participation is forced through payroll taxes, with no choice to opt out even if you think the program harmful to your interests. If you consider such forced “participation” unjust, as Rand does, the harm inflicted on you would only be compounded if your announcement of the program’s injustice precludes you from collecting Social Security.

This being said, your moral integrity does require that you view the funds only as (partial) restitution for all that has been taken from you by such welfare schemes and that you continue, sincerely, to oppose the welfare state.
Replace Social Security with "having to live with you Trumpboots and your patriarchy" and take his power.
posted by stolyarova at 1:10 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Regarding the first debate, there were issues regarding Donald Trump's audio that affected the sound level in the debate hall.

It means what we all heard on the radio and tv was fine, and Donny's lack of foldback threw him off his game. SAD.
posted by mikelieman at 1:10 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


I donated to Clinton's campaign again today because when the FEC releases the monthly report for September it will be the last report before the election. I want September to be a great month with lots of visible support for her.

this comment just made somebody else (me) donate again, too
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:10 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Which means he sure better not try to sing the National Anthem at home plate.
posted by mikelieman at 1:11 PM on September 30, 2016


WaPo: Can ‘SNL’ take down Donald Trump? Is it going to try?

Given NBC's longstanding relationship with Trump and in particular their comedy shows', this looks like a perfect example of Betteridge's Law of Headlines.
posted by Doktor Zed at 1:12 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


theora55: There is no evidence that he's using cocaine or other drugs. It's a nasty smear. Criticizing him is so easy.

And yet you just said:

I can only assume any observers of the election assume the US is collectively mentally ill.

Not only is using "mentally ill" the same way just as much of a smear against the people targeted as well as people who actually have diagnoses, but everyone in the United States needs to understand really clearly that the events of this election are not the result of some involuntary condition or other responsibility-vacating circumstance: the segment of the population and political class supporting Trump is willing to turn you over to fascists to achieve their political objectives.

The behavior on the right that has for decades merely appeared to indicate that this would be the case if the opportunity arose, is now openly confirmed to be the case, and we all need to remember that in the future and hold it up whenever rightward-pushing changes are in question, no matter what happens in this election.
posted by XMLicious at 1:13 PM on September 30, 2016 [21 favorites]


I donated to Clinton's campaign again today because when the FEC releases the monthly report for September it will be the last report before the election. I want September to be a great month with lots of visible support for her.

>this comment just made somebody else (me) donate again, too


me too, thanks

PEER PRESSURE
posted by phunniemee at 1:14 PM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


Darrell Hammond's Trump was already perfect. Sad.
posted by ian1977 at 1:14 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]



Here's a lighthearded moment for you. "Bill, let's go!" Pres. Obama beckons former Pres. Bill Clinton to board Air Force One after funeral of Shimon Peres


That was pretty funny. Cats herding cats.
posted by zutalors! at 1:15 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


theora55: "There is no evidence that he's using cocaine or other drugs. It's a nasty smear. Criticizing him is so easy."

There's a family history of dementia, and given his own words in the public record, the questions about his competence are legitimate.

I think the fact that he hasn't released an independent certification that he's not suffering from dementia is telling. If he's not hiding anything, why isn't he simply talking a physical and releasing the results?
posted by mikelieman at 1:16 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


TPM Inside Trump's Machado Rage Spiral:
Trump becomes unhinged whenever he is challenged or insulted or injured by someone he perceives as beneath him in the gender or racial hierarchy. The list is almost endless: Hillary Clinton, Alicia Machado, Obama, the Khans, Judge Curiel. Trump is a bully who lives in a zero sum psychic economy of dominance. There are dominators and the dominated. That operates with white men too, as we saw in the Republican primaries. But when the injury comes from someone he believes is beneath him, there is a special intensity and charge.
...
As of this morning polls already showed that the debate and its immediate fallout had moved public opinion decisively in Clinton's favor, though of course the tide has turned before. The sum of all these facts - the debate defeat, the fight with Machado, the faltering polls - seem to be propelling Trump into a new rage spiral, rooted in narcissistic injuries, seemingly catalyzing itself, reinforcing itself in spiraling cycles of rage and self-injury. As we stumble and march toward election day, the pressure on everyone grows. But the effects on Trump seem greater and the assaults are more compressed in time. The exposure is greater. I'm curious whether he can right himself before his next encounter with Clinton.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:17 PM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


@realdonaldtrump: "For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

SCENE: 3:00 AM, FORT MEADE, NSA HEADQUARTERS

*red phone rings*

NSA AGENT SMITH (answering phone): Good morning, President Trump. Wait, slow down, Vladimir Putin called you? What did he say? The president of Russia wanted to know if your refrigerator is running, and then he advised you to go catch it? I see. No, Mr. President, I don't think this warrants a nuclear response. I agree, Mr. President, maybe just one of your signature tweets. Sweet dreams to you too, Mr. President. (hangs up phone)

NSA AGENT JONES: He just tweeted "Vladimir Putin's mom is fat! Huge! Sad! LOSER!"

NSA AGENT SMITH: Your turn!

NSA AGENT JONES: Okay, I'm dialing. (clears throat, adopts accent) Hello, President Trump? This is Kim Jong-Un. Your cat is on my fence! Oh, you don't have a cat? Well, I don't have a fence! (hangs up phone)

*red phone rings*

NSA AGENT SMITH (answering phone): Good morning, President Trump. Wait, slow down, Kim Jong-Un called you? What did he say?
posted by mattdidthat at 1:18 PM on September 30, 2016 [55 favorites]


If Hillary Clinton could resurrect the Works Progress Administration, I would be so in favor of it. Since the WPA employed artists and writers, it would also be a great way for working-class people who can't afford to do an unpaid internship to actually use their craft in service to their country while getting paid for it. National service doesn't have to be about joining the military.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [88 favorites]


This shit doesn't end in November, not by a long shot.

For the love of everything anti-fascist and white supremacist, please please please vote in the midterms.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [29 favorites]


historically the children of the rich get exempted [from the draft] or join the Texas Air National Guard

Yet another beautiful theory destroyed by fact.

I guess I'm assuming we can implement such a law fairly.... which is why I'm not the one running for office.
posted by phliar at 1:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Darrell Hammond's Trump was already perfect. Sad.

For certain values of perfect, sure. But it was also a doofy, likeable caricature most of the time. Killam's version was a little more acidic, and as much as I love Hammond's work, I was sad to see it shelved last season.

Baldwin has a mean side that I am hoping to see deployed in the service of good tomorrow night.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


what we all heard on the radio and tv was fine, and Donny's lack of foldback threw him off his game.

Yeah, except you don't really need monitors unless there's a noisy band behind you. He was just whining.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:20 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Regarding SNL, he's beyond parody. He's unmockable. I don't think SNL can do anything about it.

Do a sketch where he is poor and trying to hide it.
posted by achrise at 1:23 PM on September 30, 2016 [43 favorites]


On the point made above, that Clinton's disability speech didn't get enough coverage because "she didn't take this opportunity to push hard against Donald Trump" -- someone on her team seems to have been paying attention. CNN headline on the service speech: On service, Clinton separates Trump from past GOP presidents
posted by neroli at 1:23 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Clinton launches final-stage turnout plan:
As the last full month of this presidential contest begins, Hillary Clinton is shifting toward a pure base-turnout strategy, inching away from her all-out effort to lure disaffected Republicans in favor of a traditional get-Democrats-to-the-polls effort that mirrors Barack Obama’s 2012 game plan.

Gone are Clinton’s regular references to winning over moderate conservatives and her sly allusions to GOP leaders meant to give defecting Republicans a framework for abandoning their nominee. With 39 days to go, Brooklyn headquarters and battleground state operatives are activating the massive surrogate machinery, a heavy early voting push, and a large-scale registration offensive they think they need to secure a win in November.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:23 PM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


I say use it. Fuck the patriarchy by stealing their power, literally in this case.

POWER SEIZED
posted by medusa at 1:24 PM on September 30, 2016 [36 favorites]


Some good news here in Wake County, NC (Raleigh area)

Wake Co NC voted absentees 47 days pre-elex:

2016 1,739 D 42.4% R 30.1 U 27.2
2012 185 D 32.4% R 38.4 U 29.2

up 940%, 18% swing to D

I wanted to vote absentee this year but my husband likes doing it in person and the early voting is just a few blocks from our home. So we will be voting in person probably October 21. Early voting in our district starts October 20 and runs til November 5.

I'm getting excited...
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:29 PM on September 30, 2016 [22 favorites]


Never worried about anyone conceding an election or giving a concession speech before this presidential election.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:30 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


FYI, if you want any Hillary swag before the filing deadline, you can get 20% off in the online store using code HRC2016.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:31 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


stolyarova: "Conscription scares the shit out of me"

If it helps at all, my impression is that of all the potential weird things that can happen in the US, conscription is not among the most likely. Unlike many European and Asian countries, I don't think the US has ever had a peacetime conscription program (i.e.: not linked to an active, shooting war). Even at the height of the Cold War, I don't think there was any kind of program where every able-bodied male citizen would have to spend a year in the military or national guard or whatever. It just doesn't seem to be part of American culture, either general or political.
posted by mhum at 1:31 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pema Levy: Trump Praised Saudi Arabia's Sharia Law for Making It Easy for Men to Get Divorced
In order to avoid admitting to cheating on his wife, Donald Trump invoked his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination 97 times during his divorce proceedings with Ivana Trump in 1990, the Huffington Post reported Friday. So it should come as little surprise that Trump had kind words for a system that allows men to divorce their wives without going to court: Saudi Arabia's sharia law.

The Republican presidential candidate praised the Islamic law, or sharia, system during a 60-second syndicated daily radio commentary called "Trumped!" that he recorded daily from 2004 to 2008. In a January 2008 segment, Trump discussed a news story of a Saudi man who had divorced his wife for watching a television show while alone at home because, in Trump's telling, the husband considered it tantamount to being alone with a strange man.

"Men in Saudi Arabia have the authority to divorce their wives without going to the courts," Trump said. "I guess that would also mean they don't need prenuptial agreements. The fact is, no courts, no judges—Saudi Arabia sounds like a very good place to get a divorce."
posted by zombieflanders at 1:38 PM on September 30, 2016 [23 favorites]


Melissasaurus and others, you finally got me. I donated, and picked up Never Trump buttons and a shirt. One for you today, you made a difference, as I'm a "new donor" and I'm sure that makes it extra shiny.
posted by clever sheep at 1:41 PM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


Regarding the first debate, there were issues regarding Donald Trump's audio that affected the sound level in the debate hall.
Just how much has the Trump campaign been badgering the CPD to say something that they felt compelled to put out this utterly meaningless statement days later? I wonder if he threatened to walk on the next debate or something.
posted by zachlipton at 1:41 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]




Trump Pleaded the Fifth 97 Times to Avoid Admitting to Adultery:
Over the course of five depositions that summer, he was asked approximately 100 questions related to marital infidelity. He pleaded the Fifth on 97 of them.
...
On Wednesday, Trump likened anyone who takes the Fifth to a criminal. “So there are five of them taking the Fifth Amendment, like you see on the mob, right?” he said at another rally in Iowa, inflating the number by two. “The mob takes the Fifth Amendment. If you’re innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”
posted by kirkaracha at 1:44 PM on September 30, 2016 [30 favorites]


Hopefully, his mic at the next debate won't constantly interrupt, brag about not paying taxes, dismiss the concerns of black voters, or petulantly dredge up an old feud with Rosie O'Donnell!
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:45 PM on September 30, 2016 [45 favorites]


I did notice there was a problem where you kept hearing Donald's voice when Hillary was talking.
posted by ckape at 1:49 PM on September 30, 2016 [99 favorites]


@JYSexton: If Trump's honest in deposition, he's paying no attention to his business. Good news as the presidency doesn't require multitasking.

@BenjySarlin: Supporters of the Republican nominee for President of the United States are sending me PornHub links in an effort to back up his 3 AM tweet.

No connection between the two links, I just thought they were both interesting/funny.

Melissasaurus and others, you finally got me. I donated,

I'm glad I brought it up. I was a bit reluctant as it seemed a bit too self-congratulatory but I was hoping for an echo effect.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:49 PM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


I do not fear a return of the draft, for many reasons; I started to write them out and realized that was sounding more like a blog post than a comment. TL;DR version: the military is not designed for true physical nor cultural diversity, nor is it built to cope with tumblr-and-twitter publicity.

The draft requires a base acceptance that military service is an honor, even if it's not one that was sought, and that its goals are worthy even if they're not understood by individual soldiers. Without those, it shifts from "joining an elite organization" to "prison sentence with life-threatening labor" in the minds of the participants. If there are enough of them, that's what the public will believe as well, especially after the first wave of suicides.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:50 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


'Tis a poor craftsman who blames their tools....
posted by mikelieman at 1:51 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


FYI, if you want any Hillary swag before the filing deadline, you can get 20% off in the online store using code HRC2016.

They still don't have that "Khaleesi is coming to Westeros!" shirt I want.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:51 PM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


Actually, a Malfunction Did Affect Donald Trump’s Voice at the Debate (NYT)

And that's why I was wishing the CPD had either said nothing or a lot more: the lead of that story? 'Maybe Donald J. Trump was right' and goes on to note that 'Mr. Trump complained after the debate that the event’s organizers had given him a “defective mike."'

But we don't know that the microphone was actually defective. We don't even know if there was a malfunction: 'Regarding the first debate, there were issues regarding Donald Trump's audio that affected the sound level in the debate hall.'

There were 'issues' that 'affected' the sound level. But the reporting is already taking that to mean there was a malfunction -- the NYT continues, 'The commission released no other information about the malfunction, including how it was discovered, which equipment was to blame, or why the problem was only admitted to on Friday, four days after the debate. Reached by phone, a commission spokeswoman said she could not immediately elaborate.' [Emphasis mine.]

Was there a malfunction? It's unclear. The CPD certainly did not say there was one in its press release, but that's what it's being taken to mean, and that's how it's being reported.

I can imagine the CPD is in something of a bind over this, given that Trump already canceled on debates in the primaries and might have threatened to cancel future debates privately; we don't know.

I don't mean to hang too much on the absence of one word, but it was striking how the CPD statement admitted no fault and made no judgement -- there was 'an issue' that 'affected' the sound levels. That doesn't mean that Trump was 'right.'
posted by cjelli at 1:53 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


welp, thanks to in-thread peer pressure i chipped in a donation to help beef up the FEC filing a teensy bit (and also to get that sweet October Supporter swag package they were touting on the donation page, smart move), and then the 20% store discount was mentioned upthread. oh, lord. didn't need to know that, but i've been eyeing that 45 button set for a while... and the shattered glass ceiling champagne flutes would go nicely with the shot glasses i already have on order. i have a feeling i'm going to want them for a special winter morning in the near future.
posted by palomar at 1:53 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Like maybe there was a problem in the hall but he obviously heard everything. And was easy enough to be heard.
posted by zutalors! at 1:53 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I haaate the thing about the mic because you know he is going to harp on it endlessly and twist it to make him look like a persecuted victim in a rigged election. UGH. Just give him an extra 5 minutes at the beginning of the next debate to bloviate about himself. He'll be pleased and it will turn off that many more voters, Win! Win!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:53 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Commission on Presidential Debates: Regarding the first debate, there were issues regarding Donald Trump's audio that affected the sound level in the debate hall.

Well, if Trump was looking for an excuse to opt out of the rest of the debates, the CPD just handed him an alibi on a silver platter.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:54 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Actually, a Malfunction Did Affect Donald Trump’s Voice at the Debate (NYT)

So the CPD released one meaningless sentence and the NYT turned that into 197 words that in no way impart any additional information. I feel stupider than I did before I clicked.
posted by zachlipton at 1:55 PM on September 30, 2016 [31 favorites]


"Men in Saudi Arabia have the authority to divorce their wives without going to the courts," Trump said. "I guess that would also mean they don't need prenuptial agreements. The fact is, no courts, no judges—Saudi Arabia sounds like a very good place to get a divorce."

...if you're a man trying to screw over the woman you married.
posted by zarq at 1:56 PM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


The issue with the mic was that it made him sound even more impressive and amazing, which is why he won according to all of the non-fake polls
posted by theodolite at 1:56 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah, that's why I added the source, so people could consider that before clicking, zachlipton.
posted by zutalors! at 1:56 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Daniel Dale: Donald Trump’s debate defeat has sent him into a raging tailspin
“This is the worst post-debate spin in world history,” Rick Tyler, a MSNBC political analyst and a former spokesman for Trump rival Ted Cruz, said in an interview. “The debate was bad enough. And he just has compounded all his problems. The Clinton camp must be overjoyed. They are playing him like a fiddle.”

Tyler added: “Everybody’s been saying, ‘Is this the thing that does him in?’ The answer is: yes, this is it. He’s a joke, he’s a laughingstock, he’s a punchline. He will not recover from this.”

Trump has defied numerous previous predictions of doom. But his behaviour, including an instantly notorious Friday tweet in which he urged people to watch a “sex tape,” is also alarming allies who had been heartened by his discipline — that is, his relative approximation of discipline — in the weeks leading up to the debate.
Sidenote: This happens to me every time. I see a new article attributed to The Star and I automatically think: "Yecch. Not clicking on that. Oh wait. The Toronto Star. Daniel Dale!"
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:00 PM on September 30, 2016 [20 favorites]


The statement also says the issue was in the hall. Did this make any difference for the TV broadcast?
posted by cmfletcher at 2:01 PM on September 30, 2016


The statement also says the issue was in the hall. Did this make any difference for the TV broadcast?

They didn't say it did, so. But yes, what a terrible, vague, unhelpful statement.
posted by cashman at 2:03 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


zutalors!, I'm not upset that you you posted it--I'm glad you did actually--just frustrated at the opaqueness behind the CPD speaking in riddles.
posted by zachlipton at 2:03 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm actually glad about the mic statement. We just know Donald is going to keep bringing it up, and the general response is going to be "What a whiner." Not something that's going to play well with his soft support.
posted by Francis at 2:03 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


cjelli: Regarding the first debate, there were issues regarding Donald Trump's audio that affected the sound level in the debate hall.

As Stephen Colbert joked, there was clearly something wrong with that microphone. Who left that thing on? Ba-da-bing!

Well, if Trump was looking for an excuse to opt out of the rest of the debates, the CPD just handed him an alibi on a silver platter.

Really? "My sound levels weren't perfect, I'm not going to debate again." I second octobersurprise's suggested first question from Hillary: Donald, would you like to trade mics before we start?
posted by filthy light thief at 2:04 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


If the microphone had not malfunctioned...

...And had he not still interrupted his opponent over 40 times. Dayenu.
...And had he not still have avoided answering as many questions as possible. Dayenu.
...And had he not still come across to everyone watching as a petulant, whiny crybaby? Dayenu.
...And had Grandpa Trump not offered us "The Cyber" parable. Dayenu.
...And had he not sounded like a raving lunatic on stage... Dayenu.
...And had he not used the phrase "a very anti-police judge" (and sounded like a fucking moron besides Dayenu.
...And had he not sniffed throughout the evening like a cocaine junkie... Dayenu.
...And had he not threatened to refuse support of our allies in NATO... Dayenu.
posted by zarq at 2:05 PM on September 30, 2016 [38 favorites]


The answer is: yes, this is it. He’s a joke, he’s a laughingstock, he’s a punchline. He will not recover from this.”

Ooh, I hope so. It was noted in another thread (many sorrys for not tracking down where, or by whom) that "Candidate is done now; game over" requires not just outrageous acts by the candidate, but an agreement by the media that that's their message. It doesn't matter how big or small the campaign gaffes are; what kills a campaign is the media saying, "well, I guess that's it for [candidate]," a flurry of "yep, looks like" from others, followed by in-depth analyses of the gaffe in question.

Some candidates might pull through this, but it's not like Trump will fail to double down on the sexism or racism. If the MSM message is now "watch Trump flounder" instead of "Trump shakes off accusations and keeps campaigning," we may get to watch the downward spiral that kills his campaign.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:07 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


From Clinton's FL speech:

@HillaryClinton: Trump "finds it a lot easier to insult women than to talk to the president of Mexico about building a wall.” —Hillary
posted by chris24 at 2:07 PM on September 30, 2016 [23 favorites]