[Election 2016] If you stand for nothing, what’ll you fall for?
September 29, 2016 10:14 AM   Subscribe

In the wake of the first presidential debate Monday night, which was widely recognized as a Clinton win even by the Republicans, polls in swing states have begun to swing back toward Clinton and even Nate Silver is calming down a bit.

While Clinton was poised and prepared and increasingly delighted with the way the debate was shaping up, Trump's performance quickly devolved from calm and rehearsed to angry word salad, punctuated by sniffles which were heard round the world, and health concerns were raised again at a rally the next day.

But the big takeaway from debate night was a story about Trump's treatment of Miss Universe Alicia Machado which Clinton brought up near the end of the debate and the Clinton campaign quickly followed up with a well-executed video shortly afterward. The story quickly gained legs and Trump's treatment of women became a national topic of conversation.

Trump's troubles don't end there, however: while the New York Attorney Generals's investigation of the Trump Foundation appears to be widening, Newsweek has broken a story about Trump's violation of United States embargoes with Cuba, which could potentially have implications with Florida voters. And there are hints that Trump plans to use Bill Clinton's sex scandals against Hillary, which could go very badly for him, as the Clinton camp seems to be prepared for such an event.

Meanwhile, Gary Johnson had another Aleppo moment when he was unable to name a world leader -- ANY world leader.
posted by rabbitrabbit (3473 comments total) 146 users marked this as a favorite
 
Great job on your first FPP, rabbitrabbit.
posted by Gelatin at 10:19 AM on September 29, 2016 [156 favorites]


The ensuing narrative about the debate has done wonders for my mental health.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:19 AM on September 29, 2016 [39 favorites]


NYT: Split Over Donald Trump and Cut Off by Culture Wars, Evangelicals Despair
But three years ago, the Odgaards refused to rent the quaint site to two gay men for a wedding, saying it would violate their religious beliefs about marriage.
Let's read a little bit further...
Everyone they knew seemed to have a gay relative or friend. Mr. Odgaard’s daughter from his first marriage disavowed her father’s actions on Facebook, and his gay second cousin will not speak to him.
Don't give me bullshit and call it chocolate ice cream.
posted by Talez at 10:19 AM on September 29, 2016 [102 favorites]


Gary Johnson's candidacy has increasingly become a joke, and the only reason he's drawing support at all is as a protest candidate.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:20 AM on September 29, 2016 [22 favorites]


I think the saddest thing for me personally is that my nieces are exposed to the nasty rhetoric of Trump by their good ole boy paternal granddad. I will be there right before the final sprint of the election and I hope I don't have to interact with him.

I suspect I will be doing the majority of deprogramming those girls once they get older.
posted by Kitteh at 10:20 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Meanwhile, Gary Johnson had another Aleppo moment when he was unable to name a world leader -- ANY world leader.

Oof. Leagues worse than Aleppo, vaguely in line with Sarah Palin not being able to name a newspaper or magazine she has read.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:20 AM on September 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


Now that he's revealed his ignorance in even more spectacular fashion, can't we call an 'Aleppo moment' 'pulling a Johnson'?
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:20 AM on September 29, 2016 [44 favorites]


I'm still kind of stunned that nothing from HRC was picked out as a "Gore sigh" by the news commentariat.
posted by thelonius at 10:21 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]




Seriously, are we not doing phrasing anymore?
posted by tonycpsu at 10:22 AM on September 29, 2016 [32 favorites]




Now that he's revealed his ignorance in even more spectacular fashion, can't we call an 'Aleppo moment' 'pulling a Johnson'?

I refer to him as Gary "The Guy Who Doesn't Know Things" Johnson, in reference to this song.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:22 AM on September 29, 2016


Carrying over from the last thread:

If the Republicans collapse the Democrats can define themselves as the new center, and maybe we'll get a worthwhile party on the left sometime before I'm an old man in a retirement home (or, more likely, an old man in a tent under an overpass).

I'm betting on the opposite. I think the Libertarians may actually wind up as the most prominent new right party (after a few cycles of bitter struggle), and as a result the Dems will have to redefine themselves as more explicitly socialist.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:22 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


I posted this Fresh Air interview with WaPo investigative journalist David Fahrenthold in the other thread, but given that Trump's foundation skullduggery is part of the FPP, it may be worth another look.

Fahrenthold give an excellent rundown both on the nature of the scandal and his own technique in investigating it. And he makes clear, in a way that he wasn't in his published articles -- damning as they are -- that he believes Trump has committed multiple violations of the law.
posted by Gelatin at 10:23 AM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


Top aide: Trump's Cuba dealings weren't 'treasonous'

"Don't ever say the crime your boss is being accused of, especially if it's something like treason" is, like, Campaign Management 101.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:24 AM on September 29, 2016 [72 favorites]


From the last thread:

Gelatin: It's like seeing someone who failed a test -- and make no mistake, these Republican complaints tacitly concede the fact that Trump lost -- complaining that the person who actually studied only passed because she must have cheated.

Coach McGuirk on Lying and Cheating:
Brendon: What if they figure out that you're a liar, you know?

McGuirk: What women?

Brendon: Sure.

McGuirk: Then who needs them? Lie to men. The other thing, Brendon, is that cheating is just another way of being prepared. Basically, memorizing something is cheating. You knew the answer before the test was given. And so by taking the test and saying you learned that stuff...

Brendon: It's cheating.

McGuirk: It's cheating! You're already cheating!

Brendon: Wow.

McGuirk: Yeah, I'm discovering all this too as I say it.

Is McGuirk what Trump would be without the small $14M loan from his father?
posted by palindromic at 10:24 AM on September 29, 2016 [57 favorites]


BREAKING NEWS: Mothra Twins choose Mothra Twins for running mate.
posted by y2karl at 10:25 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Speaking of Machado, I do want to emphasize that her words are, as someone noted, more damning in the actual Spanish.
posted by corb at 10:25 AM on September 29, 2016 [33 favorites]


Top aide: Trump's Cuba dealings weren't 'treasonous'

Good grief. This family really is Arrested Development.
posted by zachlipton at 10:26 AM on September 29, 2016 [46 favorites]


the Dems will have to redefine themselves as more explicitly socialist.

Oh no, not that! Please don't throw us into the socialist briar patch, Br'er Bear!

Is McGuirk what Trump would be without the small $14M loan from his father?

He wishes.
posted by emjaybee at 10:27 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


can't we call an 'Aleppo moment' 'pulling a Johnson'?

Do try to avoid doing this in public.
 
posted by Herodios at 10:28 AM on September 29, 2016 [37 favorites]


Meanwhile, Mitch McConnell has apparently turned into Bartleby the Scrivener.

Mitch McConnell appears to be having sympathy sniffles with sein Führer.
posted by Talez at 10:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Didn't see it in the debate thread, so apologies if posted already, but:

A special 2016 election reunion episode of Will & Grace.
posted by chris24 at 10:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


I'm still kind of stunned that nothing from HRC was picked out as a "Gore sigh" by the news commentariat.

That's probably because her most famous bit of body language, the shoulder shimmy, was so joyful, and at the point where it was so obvious she'd won (Trump has a better temperament? Puh-leeze!) that she actually let herself realize it.
posted by Gelatin at 10:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [78 favorites]


It's not like the death of a longstanding, incredibly accomplished, well-respected world leader was front page news on every single news source on that same day.
posted by miyabo at 10:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


(future thread titlers: "talk less! smile more!" remains unused)
posted by mwhybark at 10:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


McGuirk, for all his faults, is at least in possession of a small kernel of humanity. Can you imagine Trump brought to tears by bagpipes, or ever Scottish Highland Dancing?
posted by Existential Dread at 10:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Good grief. This family really is Arrested Development.

Light treason? He'll fit right in with the Republican party.
posted by Talez at 10:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ok, so I finally watched the debate, and read some reactions, and am making my way through the thread, so forgive me if this is a little late to the party, but, well:

Trump's performance at the debate reminded me of nothing so much as my old roommate giving ten explanations in one minute for why he doesn't have his share of the rent, complete with weird shifts in facial expression, wild tangents, dry mouth and constant sniffling.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:31 AM on September 29, 2016 [71 favorites]


"Don't ever say the crime your boss is being accused of, especially if it's something like treason" is, like, Campaign Management 101.

"Ah, it's too hot today."
posted by Iridic at 10:32 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm betting on the opposite. I think the Libertarians may actually wind up as the most prominent new right party (after a few cycles of bitter struggle), and as a result the Dems will have to redefine themselves as more explicitly socialist.

a girl can dream
posted by burgerrr at 10:32 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Zapp Brannigan voice actor (Billy West) reading Trump quotes

I'm going to see a live version of this tonight at the Hollywood Improv!
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


Congratulations on your first FPP, rabbitrabbit! Well done!

Also, thanks for adding [Election 2016] to the headline. A nice touch.
posted by zarq at 10:35 AM on September 29, 2016 [30 favorites]


> (future thread titlers: "talk less! smile more!" remains unused)
posted by mwhybark at 10:30 AM on September 29 [1 favorite +] [!]


I mean it's a very memorable line, but for obvious reasons it might not really be the message that we want to take out of Hamilton.

I still think "oh my god, tear this dude apart" would be great for a debate thread, even if Mulligan's wording is a bit over-the-top.

and Trump Refuted would make a good title for the post-election celebration thread...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:38 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Congress did pass a continuing resolution, however, only through December 9th, setting up the next budget/shutdown fight for right in the middle of the lame duck session.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:42 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump's performance at the debate reminded me of nothing so much as my old roommate giving ten explanations in one minute for why he doesn't have his share of the rent, complete with weird shifts in facial expression, wild tangents, dry mouth and constant sniffling.

That means your roommate was smart!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:42 AM on September 29, 2016 [79 favorites]


That's probably because her most famous bit of body language, the shoulder shimmy, was so joyful, and at the point where it was so obvious she'd won (Trump has a better temperament? Puh-leeze!), she actually let herself realize it.

Breitbart (not linking to it) had an article claiming that the shimmy might have been a winner had she not done it for too long, i.e. she Hingle McCringleberried it.
posted by zakur at 10:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


A new thread?
I'll go warn my iPad.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


The level of self-unawareness on the part of their new Clinton Blowjob strategy is just incredible. Like they think it could actually work. To the point they're like, "I didn't want to have to do this but okay..." I mean the willful blindness is stunning. It's cult-member level.

I even had an argument (just for fun) with a Trump supporter yesterday about whether Trump had implied that he paid no taxes. "That's not what he said." I pulled up the transcript. It's right there. "That's not what he said. He will release his taxes when the audit is over, and it will show he's paid more than most people." Wow. What do you say to someone like that?
posted by fungible at 10:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [26 favorites]


What comes after double-down? Triple-down?

Chicago Tribune: Employees at Trump's California golf course say he wanted to fire women who weren't pretty enough

Newt Gingrich: "You're not supposed to gain 60 pounds' when you're Miss Universe"

Next up, Cuba...
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


What comes after double-down?

Regret.

Oh, sorry, that's what comes after a Double Down.
posted by Etrigan at 10:45 AM on September 29, 2016 [34 favorites]


Trump really Neil Breened it.
posted by Yowser at 10:45 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'd been basking in the afterglow of the debate for the past couple of days until I had some 'interesting' discussions in the faculty lounge. It's a wonder my eyes haven't rolled out of their sockets. Takes from Pakistani schoolteachers:

- Trump is a bald faced liar and that's better than being deceptive and conniving like Clinton, who is responsible for all the messes in the Middle East. As in, personally responsible. As in, she, behind the scenes, "started all the wars." "I'm not saying this ,this is the Americans themselves saying it ." (Thanks Republican spin machine. At least my colleagues appreciated my sharing of the 'sometimes there's only a smoke machine' quip.)

- Anyone who has been in public office for as long as Clinton would of course be well versed. Clinton's competence is no big deal, just a matter of her circumstances. (Why can't women *ever* be given credit for their accomplishments?)

- Clinton wasn't really anybody in her own right. She was catapulted into positions of influence because of her husband. (I took special pleasure in pointing out that she worked on the Watergate inquiry before she was married and she was valedictorian at Wellesley.)

- Trump is so obviously incompetent to be president that "the powers that be" must have simply put him up so that they can be assured of a Clinton victory.

But I just have to think about the last ten minutes of the debate to return to my happy state. She mopped the floor with him and it was extremely gratifying.
posted by bardophile at 10:46 AM on September 29, 2016 [50 favorites]


Great job on your first FPP, rabbitrabbit.

Can something be anti-eponysterical? Because to have rabbitrabbit make a first post now rather than Saturday morning seems to quality.
posted by phearlez at 10:46 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


Oh, sorry, that's what comes after a Double Down.

I thought that was diarrhea. Which is accurate in both contexts.
posted by Talez at 10:47 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I, for some reason, was watching the first town-hall debate — the one in 1992 with Bush, Clinton, and Perot. The whole thing is up on YouTube. I was struck by a few things:
  • The questions are quite good and the answers were excellent. The candidates were cordial toward one another and all of them came off as smart people. Clinton, in particular, said afterwards that his goal was to give people policy specifics, and to a person in 2016 it's astonishing how much detail he goes into on stage, throwing out numbers with ease and explaining complex things in accurate ways.
  • All the candidates went into great detail on the economy, which dominated questioning to the near-exclusion of social issues. (This, of course, may have been the influence of Perot, who saw everything through an economic lens and was a more genuine “run a country like a business” candidate than Romney or Trump ever could dream of.)
  • There were no personal attacks, or if there were they were so brief that I missed them entirely.
Despite all this, the legacy of this debate is almost entirely about stagecraft — Bush looking at his watch, Clinton wading out into the audience to connect with individual voters. I like the idea of a debate where the candidates interact with an audience of undecided voters, but I wish we had a way of doing that that didn't turn candidates into soliloquizers on an imagined stage.

I don't really know what an undecided voter looks like in this election. But I fear that we're not going to get this sort of substance on October 9. Either the candidates have figured out how to take nuanced policy questions and pivot to the well-worn topics in their answers, or the questions themselves have gotten more conventional and horse-racey.

If Trump had had to hang with those three in 1992, the contrast would've been so goddamn obvious. He would've been caught out on the first question as not knowing what the hell he was talking about. I think he'll tank the next debate, but most likely it'll be because he interrupted a questioner or started arguing with someone or once again brought up Rosie O'Donnell for no fucking reason.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:49 AM on September 29, 2016 [47 favorites]


Wanted: Pro-Trump News Writer
DO NOT APPLY IF:
-You have trouble using Microsoft Suite, Skype, or any other Basic Software
-You are a liberal
-You don't LOVE Trump
-You plan on just "getting by"
posted by octobersurprise at 10:49 AM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


From the article on Gingrich's comment I found this even more interesting bit from Trump down at the bottom:

"I had nothing to do with this person, but they wanted to fire her. I saved her job. ... You know what happened, look what I get out of it. I get nothing," Trump said during an interview Tuesday on Fox News.

"And it is a beauty contest," Trump later added. "Say what you want, but, I mean, they know what they're getting into. It's a beauty contest. And I said don't do that. Let her try and lose the weight. Can you imagine I end up in a position like this."


Even after everything we've been through together in these election threads it's still incredible to me that in the span of two statements he tries to make himself the victim - twice.
posted by komara at 10:49 AM on September 29, 2016 [28 favorites]


I already got to correspondence vote overseas! Quickest ballot fillout ever, got it last evening and mailed it this morning (though I did send my ballots within 48 hours for Obama both times). Also the first time ever that I've put a clear X over a presidential ticket. I'm sure you can guess which one. I REALLY did not want there to be ANY mistake about for whom I was voting. Perfectly-filled-in oval for the ticket I want, BIG HONKING X over the racist sexist scam artist and his VP pick. (Over their names. Not their oval.)

Clinton went and freaking made me cry again, it's just incredible watching a woman I look up to do her thing, experience the same shit I and other women have, and hold her own with such poise, intelligence, and humor.
posted by fraula at 10:49 AM on September 29, 2016 [27 favorites]


What comes after double-down? Triple-down?

More types of downs!

We got Bill, we got Cuba and 'no he didn't do Treason' still waiting on his direct response and a couple of possibilities that looked like he floated yesterday, with the potential big one being whether non-Christians should be kicked out of his rally (it was a joke! har har). He was testing that line.
posted by Jalliah at 10:50 AM on September 29, 2016


Gary Johnson is coming to Phoenix on Saturday for a rally.

The husband of a friend is the state chair of the Arizona Libertarian Party and had absolutely no idea this rally was happening until yesterday (and only then because friends were emailing him, not because of any official communication). None of my other Libertarian friends (used to be one - before I grew up) even knew this was happening.

But this is the year we are supposed to start taking Libertarians seriously...
posted by Lapin at 10:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [30 favorites]


I didn't watch the debate -- my job had me in a vehicle driving 400 miles, so I listened to it on NPR.

I have to say, after about 30 minutes, I started to wonder if Trump had done a giant rail of coke before going on, because his sniffing was SO FUCKING INTENSE over the radio.

If you haven't seen Samantha Bee analyze the debate yet, then you should watch it. Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4
posted by hippybear at 10:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [67 favorites]


The level of self-unawareness on the part of their new Clinton Blowjob strategy is just incredible. Like they think it could actually work. To the point they're like, "I didn't want to have to do this but okay..."

Do the Trump campaign people not think that Clinton's team hasn't already prepared for this? I'd put down money right this second that Clinton has at least one of Trump's mistresses ready to come out against him in a post-second debate commercial. They can't possibly think bringing up infidelities would be a winner, could they?

Oh yeah... Trump's Razor.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 10:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


Gary Johnson's candidacy has increasingly become a joke, and the only reason he's drawing support at all is as a protest candidate.
The thing I find really frustrating about Johnson is that, unlike most Libertarians, he actually does have designs on maintaining certain military conflicts, particularly in the Middle East. So he wants to cut the military in half in terms of budget and personnel, but still expects our guys and gals to fight their hearts out against ISIS and other terroristic enemies while continuing to defend Israel and intervening in places like Somalia and Uganda. And despite this, he didn't know what Aleppo was and can't name foreign leaders. Looking constantly inward does nothing for the country and it certainly did nothing for New Mexico under his term as governor, which dropped down several rungs on the ladder educationally, economically, and socially during his tenure. (See: supporting private prisons, being "tough on crime" by never pardoning a single non-violent drug offender, the stupid filmmaker tax credit, getting cited by Human Rights Watch, etc. etc.) Screw Johnson. He's a hack who says one thing and does another and is perfectly content to watch this country go up in flames while acting as a spoiler vote.
posted by xyzzy at 10:52 AM on September 29, 2016 [50 favorites]


Breitbart (not linking to it) had an article claiming that the shimmy might have been a winner had she not done it for too long

That's hilarious. Even her own worst enemies have to concede that it was a winning moment. Not sure how something that was no longer than 2 seconds counts as "too long," though.
posted by explosion at 10:53 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


The level of self-unawareness on the part of their new Clinton Blowjob strategy is just incredible. Like they think it could actually work. To the point they're like, "I didn't want to have to do this but okay..." I mean the willful blindness is stunning. It's cult-member level.

"Sorry, Donald, that was a while ago. Remind me, which marriage were you on when it happened?" [/fake]
posted by Gelatin at 10:54 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Also the first time ever that I've put a clear X over a presidential ticket. I'm sure you can guess which one. I REALLY did not want there to be ANY mistake about for whom I was voting. Perfectly-filled-in oval for the ticket I want, BIG HONKING X over the racist sexist scam artist and his VP pick. (Over their names. Not their oval.)

Uh... does this not invalidate the ballot?
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:55 AM on September 29, 2016 [55 favorites]


So in the land of Fox news (for those who can't bear to give them page views): their website has been running a constant stream of character assassination stories about Alicia Machado, as headlines. I can't help but think this is a mistake: they are in no way attacking the truth of her story because that of course would contradict Trump himself, who has doubled down several times, insisting he was justified in the way he treated her. So all they are doing is making sure the story stays in the news. Perhaps pointing out character flaws will allow a certain mindset to, in turn, justify their vote for Trump: "He was mean to this woman, but she is not virtuous." However there must be some voters out there who realize that no one deserves that kind of treatment.
posted by TreeRooster at 10:55 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


komara: "Even after everything we've been through together in these election threads it's still incredible to me that in the span of two sentences he tries to make himself the victim - twice."

I wonder to what extent the Clinton campaign intentionally meant this as catnip. The story doesn't reflect well on him even if he doesn't take the bait, but I wonder if it was their hope all along that he'd keep batting it around for the next few news cycles. Either way, I hope they've got a new thing to spring on him for the next debate.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:56 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wanted: Pro-Trump News Writer

"You will be paid for each and every quality article that you help create."
posted by AndrewInDC at 10:57 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


I can imagine what was going on inside of Weld's and Gary Johnson's heads.

Q: Name a world leader. Any world leader.

Weld: [Oh! Oh! Me, Mr. Kotter. Me, Mr. Kotter. Ooh! Ooh!]

Johnson: [Damn. Who was in charge of the Island of Misfit Toys?]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:57 AM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


Gary Johnson is coming to Phoenix on Saturday for a rally.

The husband of a friend is the state chair of the Arizona Libertarian Party and had absolutely no idea this rally was happening until yesterday


That seems pretty on-point for Libertarians, though. Don't need no top-down hierarchy telling me where to be and when to be there. I'll go where I want, when I want, and if Gary Johnson happens to be there, well, cool.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:59 AM on September 29, 2016 [47 favorites]


Wanted: Pro-Trump News Writer

"You will be paid for each and every quality article that you help create."


"But if you don't do 'quality work' you will only be paid 40 cents on the dollar of the negotiated contract."
posted by hippybear at 10:59 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Wanted: Pro-Trump News Writer

Reminds me of a recent Scientology recruitment ad for a writer who would work for Freedom magazine, their major in-house publication. Semi-relevant quote:

We have a religious aspect to what we do, and a definite point of view. You adjust to us, not the other way around.

Interesting how modern conservatives and repressive cults have very similar language.
posted by honestcoyote at 10:59 AM on September 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


I already got to correspondence vote overseas! Quickest ballot fillout ever, got it last evening and mailed it this morning (though I did send my ballots within 48 hours for Obama both times). Also the first time ever that I've put a clear X over a presidential ticket. I'm sure you can guess which one. I REALLY did not want there to be ANY mistake about for whom I was voting. Perfectly-filled-in oval for the ticket I want, BIG HONKING X over the racist sexist scam artist and his VP pick. (Over their names. Not their oval.)

You invalidated your ballot. You didn't vote for anyone.
posted by hleehowon at 11:00 AM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


Wanted Pro Trump Writer
If you are a highly-driven individual with a solid competency for writing...

posted by bardophile at 11:00 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Also: have we ever had a candidate whose skin was so easy to get under? How many stories have we heard about how he can't stand the implication that he's not as rich as he claims to be?

He's like the first mini-boss in a Zelda game — half a dozen giant weak spots, all of which glow bright neon. Clinton just has to memorize the routine, bide her time, and strike when he turns his back. A true boss would change up his movement pattern halfway through, but Trump's programming makes that impossible.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:00 AM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


> Zapp Brannigan voice actor (Billy West) reading Trump quotes

Methinks Stimpy voice actor (Billy West) reading Trump quotes would be more appropriate.
“Build the wall... duuuh, OK Ren”
posted by farlukar at 11:00 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


You invalidated your ballot.

The counters probably don't scan the entire ballot and reject it if there are extraneous marks.
posted by Etrigan at 11:01 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Uh... does this not invalidate the ballot?

Depends on how they count the votes. If it's by scanning the card, probably not - they only care about marks inside the circles. Content outside the voting dots won't even be noticed.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:02 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Breitbart (not linking to it) had an article claiming that the shimmy might have been a winner had she not done it for too long

Someone should tell the people at Breitbart that animated GIFs are an endless loop.

I wonder to what extent the Clinton campaign intentionally meant this as catnip. The story doesn't reflect well on him even if he doesn't take the bait, but I wonder if it was their hope all along that he'd keep batting it around for the next few news cycles. Either way, I hope they've got a new thing to spring on him for the next debate.

No doubt about it. She waited for the end of the debate to spring it on him -- and he was completely befuddled; he had no idea of what she was talking about at first -- and the campaign had a lengthy video all ready to go.

Team Clinton seems to have been working like the obituary desk at a major news outlet, assembling tons of clips, ready to be deployed at the appropriate time.
posted by Gelatin at 11:02 AM on September 29, 2016 [22 favorites]



Uh... does this not invalidate the ballot?


Nah. The optical readers will never see it. It could possibly be challenged in a Florida style recount, but that won't happen.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:02 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Also: have we ever had a candidate whose skin was so easy to get under?

Nixon was pretty famous for it, but he was also smart enough not to show it quite so much.

(now I'm envisioning Nixon in the Twitter era and the number of aides who would die trying to get his phone away from him)
posted by Etrigan at 11:03 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


I don't think a ballot has to be pristine for it to be counted, so long as there were no stray marks inside the fill-in ovals.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:03 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I hope SNL revives Celebrity Jeapordy with a 3rd Party Candidate Edition with Stein, Johnson and Connery or at least does Black Jeapordy with Donald/Hillary.
posted by humanfont at 11:03 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


savetheclocktower: I, for some reason, was watching the first town-hall debate — the one in 1992 with Bush, Clinton, and Perot.

Thanks to a family friend who worked for the Clinton campaign, highschooler emelenjr watched the debate on a TV in the basement of the arena where it was held, sitting with Stephanopoulous, Carville and other Clinton team members. I shook the Big Dog's hand when he came down to greet his staff afterward, too. My friend who came with me that night now works for Longwood University and was personally involved in preparations for the upcoming VP debate there.

He has so far not done the honorable thing and hooked me up with tickets to the thing.
posted by emelenjr at 11:03 AM on September 29, 2016 [28 favorites]


From doing some quick googling, whether or not marking outside the bubble invalidates a ballot seems to depend on the jurisdiction you're voting in. But some places may also allow you to cancel a spoilt ballot and get a second one. fraula you should look into this!
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:04 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]






So, once upon a time I went out with a girl who went on to be Missouri's Libertarian gubernatorial candidate. She would have SO knocked this question out of the park then and she was a college freshman. That's what blows me away about Johnson. I tend to see Libertarians as political wonks with maybe a twinge of cognitive dissonance. Meanwhile, it's like Johnson gets all his news from guys at the water cooler telling him about what Trevor Noah said on Comedy Central last night.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:06 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


At this point I think half the benefit to the Clinton campaign of a Lewinsky/Flowers attack would be not the backlash itself but the impression that he played right into her hands again. Trump blundering into obvious traps is damaging in and of itself, even if the traps don't have too many teeth, which gives the campaign incentive to publicly state ahead of time how obvious their traps are.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:06 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump spokesperson Katrina Pierson insists only "online polls" are really accurate because the media's scientific polls are "skewed."

Because that mindset worked so well for the Republicans in 2012.
posted by Gelatin at 11:07 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump spokesperson Katrina Pierson insists only "online polls" are really accurate because the media's scientific polls are "skewed."

Science Reality has a well-known anti-Trump bias.
posted by zarq at 11:07 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


So having Mark Cuban at the debate was in reality razzing Trump about his Cuban connections.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:08 AM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


"You will be paid for each and every quality article that you help create."

Which looks to be about 20 bucks a piece. In Vegas. By a company called Gravitas Works which looks to be somewhere around here. I'm just imagining a bunch of super-methed-out dudes struggling to write pro-Trump copy so they can get their money and go get a couple of 40s and a pack of squares or something.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:08 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also: have we ever had a candidate whose skin was so easy to get under? How many stories have we heard about how he can't stand the implication that he's not as rich as he claims to be?

Ah, you missed John Silber running for governor of Massachusetts.

Of course, there's Le Page from Maine, and Christie, and ...
posted by Melismata at 11:08 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


She waited for the end of the debate to spring it on him --

She waited for the topic of "she doesn't have the look" to come up. If that had been mentioned in the first half-hour, she'd've brought it up then; it was a matter of (glorious) luck for her that it was near the end of the agenda.

If Holt hadn't brought up the topic, she would've had to find a way to bring up Trump's attitude toward women, but it would've seemed like she was forcing the topic.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:08 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


I don't really know what an undecided voter looks like in this election.

Good bet they're white, male, and straight.
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:09 AM on September 29, 2016 [28 favorites]


HRC: He's so broke, he can't even pay attention! [fake]
posted by palindromic at 11:09 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Gary Johnson's candidacy has increasingly become a joke, and the only reason he's drawing support at all is as a protest candidate.

Seriously, though I think Gary Johnson is actually just crazy. Watch (if you can) as this poor MSNBC reporter recoils in palpable fear that he is going to lean over and start licking her. Even in this election cycle I think this may be the oddest clip we're going to get. Warning: Seriously. His tongue. It's creepy.
posted by The Bellman at 11:10 AM on September 29, 2016 [35 favorites]


From the Chicago Tribune article:
Trump has previously defended himself by saying he has “great respect for women” and “will do far more for women” than Clinton. He has also said that “all are impressed with how nicely I have treated women.
BWAHAHAHAHA

he thinks that if he says something, it magically becomes true. he has great respect for women--nevermind his very public record of demeaning, harassing, and discriminating against them. never mind the rape. he will do more for women than clinton--nevermind that he has no explanation of how. everyone is impressed with how nicely he's treated women--nevermind that he's saying this in direct response to people who are not impressed.

it's HILARIOUS

but oh wait, it works...
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 11:10 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


Donald Trump Is About to Go Nuclear on Hillary Clinton:
If Trump were to wage all-out war on the Clintons, he could rely on a veritable ocean of muck that the American right wing has accumulated over the years, including not just Benghazi or the email scandal, but accusations going back decades about Whitewater, the suicide of Vince Foster, and drug smuggling in Arkansas—not to mention the likeliest line of attack: Bill Clinton’s checkered sexual history.
Mmmm...reheated leftover nothingburgers.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:11 AM on September 29, 2016 [40 favorites]


If Holt hadn't brought up the topic, she would've had to find a way to bring up Trump's attitude toward women, but it would've seemed like she was forcing the topic.

I'm sure she had half a dozen other videos ready to go for other talking points which never came up.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:12 AM on September 29, 2016 [36 favorites]


At this point I think half the benefit to the Clinton campaign of a Lewinsky/Flowers attack would be not the backlash itself but the impression that he played right into her hands again.

Which is why I kinda want to see it happen. It'd be like Babe Ruth calling his shot.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:13 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


He's like the first mini-boss in a Zelda game — half a dozen giant weak spots, all of which glow bright neon.

Where as Clinton is the Bed of Chaos: you hit her obvious weak spots and nothing much happens, then you start looking around for somewhere else to attack and fall into a bottomless pit

I'm not sure what video game boss Gary Johnson is but I swear I can hear the Chocobo theme playing in my head every time I see him talk
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:13 AM on September 29, 2016 [40 favorites]


> ...my nieces are exposed to the nasty rhetoric of Trump

Here is the thing for me with someone like Trump getting so much airplay - it normalizes hate speech again.

Not to trivialize either smoking or hate speech, but the thing with his level of nasty public discourse is that we had it on the run, we really did, just like cigarette addiction.

We used to smoke in cars with our unrestrained two year olds bouncing around in the back. We used to smoke in airplanes, in hospitals, around people who were sick, everywhere - we smoked everywhere.

Then we started to understand all of the harm it caused. People tried to quit, society became less accepting.

Some people complained a lot about these changes - after all, they figured they were only hurting themselves.

The same has been happening with hate speech and nasty bigoted rhetoric - we stopped seeing it in public. Sure, some venomous creatures were muttering it in corners, but as it became less and less acceptable, we became less used to it, and noticed it more when it happened.

He has been undoing all that with his public displays of bigotry, of misogyny. It would be as if we all of sudden dropped all the smoking bans, and said, "hey, no we were wrong - this is okay - go ahead and blow smoke around the baby".
posted by hilaryjade at 11:13 AM on September 29, 2016 [112 favorites]


he has great respect for women--nevermind his very public record of demeaning, harassing, and discriminating against them.

Nevermind that he's on public record saying he doesn't respect women.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:13 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wanted: Pro-Trump News Writer

Current headlines on that site:
JUST BECAUSE TRUMP WON THE DEBATE DOESN’T MEAN HE WON (HOW STUPID DO THEY GET?)

BREAKING: MEXICAN CARTELS JUST CAUGHT WORKING WITH ISIS IN THE U.S.

INSIDER: Leaked Email Shows Obama’s Plan To Rig Election For Hillary

Hillary Just Promised To “Punish” All White Cops Once In Office

BREAKING: Hillary’s Campaign Now Backing Out Of The Debate

THE RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD JUST AGREED TO HELP TRUMP BUILD THE WALL
Quality stuff.
posted by zakur at 11:14 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


I don't really know what an undecided voter looks like in this election.

All the undecided voters I know are conservative Christian Republicans who would definitely vote for a GOP nominee if he were someone less odious than Trump, and who won't consider voting Dem because they are convinced that Clinton is thoroughly corrupt. They don't see any good options. The multi-decade propaganda campaign against the Clintons is really paying off this year for the GOP--it wouldn't be this close if there weren't so many people who are certain that Hillary can't be trusted.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:14 AM on September 29, 2016 [31 favorites]


Mmmm...reheated leftover nothingburgers.

As a Hashtag Millennial, I realized earlier this year that I had no idea what Whitewater actually WAS, just that it was some old Clinton scandal. So I looked it up. And oh my god, it is such a boring scandal! I found it almost impossible to believe that anyone had ever cared about it. I hope to god someone on Trump's team actually think it still has legs.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:15 AM on September 29, 2016 [53 favorites]


I guess it's nice to have yet another albatross to hang around Trump's neck, but the Cuba embargo is (was?) such a bad law that I wouldn't begrudge any American for breaking it.
posted by Flashman at 11:16 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Name a world leader. Any world leader.

"Uhh... hm... G-Galactus?"
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:16 AM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


Watch (if you can) as this poor MSNBC reporter recoils in palpable fear that he is going to lean over and start licking her yt .

hahahahahaha
posted by sallybrown at 11:16 AM on September 29, 2016


I found it almost impossible to believe that anyone had ever cared about it.

They wanted something to stick to the Clintons. Anything.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 11:16 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


All the undecided voters I know are conservative Christian Republicans who would definitely vote for a GOP nominee if he were someone less odious than Trump, and who won't consider voting Dem because they are convinced that Clinton is thoroughly corrupt. They don't see any good options. The multi-decade propaganda campaign against the Clintons is really paying off this year for the GOP--it wouldn't be this close if there weren't so many people who are certain that Hillary can't be trusted.

I'm the opposite - the ones I know are younger liberals who think of Clinton as a corporate war hawk, but a lot of them have been coming around to her, either enthusiastically or reluctantly.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:17 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


If Trump really does "go nuclear" on Clinton, I'm pretty sure that her team (and by extension, she) has been preparing for that for months and months. The debate itself showed how well she is able to prepare, and I'm sure nearly anything he has to "reveal" has already been anticipated.

I'm still a bit concerned by Assange's assertion that he supposedly has something he's going to release in October (surprise!) that will influence the election. That's something that I'm not sure the Clinton campaign can anticipate and prepare for.
posted by hippybear at 11:17 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Not sure how something that was no longer than 2 seconds counts as "too long," though.

posted by explosion at 10:53 AM on September 29 [+] [!]


Perhaps Marla, Ivanna, or Melania could explain how 2 seconds of something could be too long. . .
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 11:17 AM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


Mothra Twins choose Mothra Twins for running mate.

Maybe it's time to have identical twins for president. I know the constitution allows only one person, but how are you going to know who is who when one runs out of the Oval Office and the other one appears? DNA is not going to help. Maybe we could get those Jeremy Irons twins. Or Hayley Mills.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:18 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Current headlines on that site

It is far too early in the morning for me to start drinking, sadly.
posted by corb at 11:18 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pierre Salinger:
...the President called me into his office in the early evening. "Pierre, I need some help," he said solemnly. "I'll be glad to do anything I can Mr. President," I replied. "I need a lot of cigars." "How many, Mr. President?" "About 1,000 Petit Upmanns." I shuddered a bit, although I kept my reaction to myself. "And, when do you need them, Mr. President?" "Tomorrow morning."

I walked out of the office wondering if I would succeed. But since I was now a solid Cuban cigar smoker, I knew a lot of stores, and I worked on the problem into the evening.

The next morning, I walked into my White House office at about 8 a.m., and the direct line from the President's office was already ringing. He asked me to come in immediately.

"How did you do Pierre?" he asked, as I walked through the door.

"Very well," I answered. In fact, I'd gotten 1,200 cigars. Kennedy smiled, and opened up his desk. He took out a long paper which he immediately signed. It was the decree banning all Cuban products from the United States. Cuban cigars were now illegal in our country.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:20 AM on September 29, 2016 [76 favorites]


or any other Basic Software

10 PRINT "I NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING"
20 GOTO 10
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 11:21 AM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


You invalidated your ballot.

This is a reminder that when you vote you should follow instructions precisely and without creativity. Imagine your ballot was being counted by someone with views opposed to yours, and give them no opportunity to silence you.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 11:21 AM on September 29, 2016 [83 favorites]


If Trump really does "go nuclear" on Clinton, I'm pretty sure that her team (and by extension, she) has been preparing for that for months and months.

Nah, she ran for President in 2008 - she's been preparing for it for years.
posted by LionIndex at 11:21 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


I have to admit that I have become rather fond of Orange Julius! He is doing us a great service!
He probably will lose the election, and that is good. But beyond that he is doing a great job in demolishing the party he is fronting for, and that is a great service to us all
posted by Postroad at 11:22 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Mmmm...reheated leftover nothingburgers.

I thought we were having schemed shams.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:22 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Science Reality has a well-known anti against-rich asshole bias.

Momentarily forgot about the Trump-->rich asshole browser plugin but, on reflection, I think I'll leave it as is
posted by Fezboy! at 11:23 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Whee! The post title quote is from what I used for my senior quote!
Carry on.

posted by phunniemee at 11:23 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh yeah... Trump's Razor.

I started to wonder if Trump had done a giant rail of coke before going on


So that's what Trump's Razor is for!
 
posted by Herodios at 11:24 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Maybe it's time to have identical twins for president. I know the constitution allows only one person, but how are you going to know who is who when one runs out of the Oval Office and the other one appears?

Twin magic!
posted by uncleozzy at 11:25 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


he thinks that if he says something, it magically becomes true.

I don't know if I'd go that far, but he definitely has shown time and time again that he thinks that if he says something, people will believe it is true. And that that is all that is necessary. And hey, it's worked well enough for most of his career.
posted by baf at 11:26 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I found it almost impossible to believe that anyone had ever cared about [Whitewater]...

They wanted something to stick to the Clintons. Anything.


The same is true of the Benghazi witch hunt, which they also don't really give a shit about:
13 Benghazis That Occurred on Bush's Watch Without a Peep from Fox News
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:26 AM on September 29, 2016 [46 favorites]




I've got an undecided in my family. He's still a diehard BernieOrBuster who believes Clinton stole the primary, and cannot reconcile himself to her more hawkish leanings either. his Facebook posts have increasingly become more anxious about how he cannot reconcile himself to either option and probably just won't vote at all.

I'd like to believe this is entirely an act to avoid drama with his Trump-fan parents who he, his wife, and child live with. But if it is, I sure wish he'd drop a coded message in there or something, because I would reeeeally like to shake him by the shoulders and ask him to get his head on straight. If only for the sake of his immigrant wife, Latinx nephews, and queer in-laws.
posted by Stacey at 11:28 AM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


He has been undoing all that with his public displays of bigotry, of misogyny.

I'm not sure he has. Or, rather, if he goes down as tragically as I think he's about to go down, I don't think this respite for the forces of "hey, let's be assholes" is going to suddenly be normalized for the long run.

A lot of Trump's supporters see him as The Big Alpha Male™, who they, also being big alpha males, must follow. Ignoring their lack of understanding of herd dynamics, the more Trump looks like a flailing mess, a looser or a cry baby the more they're going to feel the need to distance themselves from him. They'll try to reason themselves out of this, hell, they already are - see every Hillary was wearing a wire, the moderator had it in for him, his mic was sabotaged, etc. story out there, but it going to wear at them. There's going to be an asshole bump in the short term and there will always be the unrepentant, but I think that boil is going to be lanced pretty hard in November.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:28 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]




After watching the Gary Johnson thing, I feel like he's getting a bit of a raw deal. He wasn't asked to name any world leader, he was asked to name a world leader he looked up to and admired. Arguably libertarians don't admire any foreign leaders because they don't believe the world outside the U.S. borders really exists.

That being said, he gave the *very* strong impression that he would not be capable of naming any world leader whatsoever. And when he finally came up with one ("the former president of Mexico") he was unable to remember the man's name without help.
posted by edheil at 11:29 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


Mothra Twins choose Mothra Twins for running mate.

Maybe it's time to have identical twins for president.


Soul Asylum had a better idea.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:30 AM on September 29, 2016


It's been almost 24 hours...and I still can't come up with a foreign leader I look up to. (real)

Going for the spin eh? Nice try, Count Olaf as Stephano. But the question was, respect, not look up to.
posted by cashman at 11:32 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Right now if I Google 'Trump' for news and click view more every single link is Cuba. You have to go to another page to get to anything else. Same for other people?
posted by Jalliah at 11:32 AM on September 29, 2016


All the candidates went into great detail on the economy, which dominated questioning to the near-exclusion of social issues. (This, of course, may have been the influence of Perot,

The economy was in the middle of a brutal, long-lasting recession that was throwing millions out of work. Millenials are not the only ones who had to deal with harsh economic times.
posted by My Dad at 11:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


I mean, Canada is north of the USA, so at least he'd look up to Justin Trudeau anyway.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 11:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


As a Hashtag Millennial, I realized earlier this year that I had no idea what Whitewater actually WAS, just that it was some old Clinton scandal. So I looked it up. And oh my god, it is such a boring scandal! I found it almost impossible to believe that anyone had ever cared about it.

That was pretty much the reaction of everybody at the time, too - everybody except the New York Times and Congressional Republicans. Check out the Wikipedia article. The entire thing was driven by reporters at the Gray Lady. Being politically aware at that time makes the current coverage rhyme in a way that exposes how utterly stupid the e-mail and Clinton Foundation stuff is. Josh Marshall reflected on this a while ago:
And yet here we are again - with an almost infinite, process-driven scandal that can easily continue on into a Clinton presidency, if there is one. Consider it. Clinton and her lawyers have separated her work emails from personal ones and then sent the work ones to the State Department. But Republicans will never believe that the filtering was on the level. And by apparently destroying the personal ones, that means that Republican questions and press questions will meet a permanent question mark. Presumably even if she wanted to let a third party review all the emails now she can't. So the deleted emails will remain the permanent fantastical repository for the decision not to prevent a rescue of Chris Stevens, give orders to erase warnings about safety at the Benghazi consulate and more.

If you'd been through the numskull scrutiny the Clintons were subjected to in office - the bogus "Whitewater" investigation, the purported murder of staffers, the Lewinsky investigation - you'd probably want to block off every avenue of scrutiny too. But the relationship between the Clintons and the press and the political class generally is codependent, toxic and frankly ridiculous on both sides - with extreme self-protection and legalism on one hand and hyperbole, nonsense and wolf-crying penalties on the other. Like any perennial and bad relationship it is exhausting to watch and generally impossible to pick apart where one part ends and other starts. Which is a reaction to the other, which is first? I have no idea anymore. It hardly matters.

In the main, none of these 'scandals' ever end up having a real there there. Not because the Clintons are good at covering things up but there just wasn't anything there in the first place. But the one thing the Clintons bring is drama. All the time. They may not be looking for it but they find it. Always.
He wrote that in March 2015.
posted by one_bean at 11:34 AM on September 29, 2016 [47 favorites]


edheil: "Arguably libertarians don't admire any foreign leaders because they don't believe the world outside the U.S. borders really exists."

They also can't point to any nations on earth that have tried the sorts of things that libertarians are advocating for because the US is already the most libertarian of developed nations. Which means, annoyingly, libertarians are usually free to argue “if we just tried a completely deregulated market it would work” no matter the topic because the most recent counterexamples are from, like, Victorian England.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:34 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


> Whee! The post title quote is from what I used for my senior quote!

Mine was "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

I never thought how prescient that quote would be.
posted by Gelatin at 11:34 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'm still a bit concerned by Assange's assertion that he supposedly has something he's going to release in October (surprise!) that will influence the election.

They finally found the Whitey tape!
posted by asteria at 11:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


showbiz_liz, Whitewater was one of the "big things" in my first voting election and I don't think I've ever really been able to drum up enough interest to know what it is. So, uh, kudos to you for the research I guess. I've met snakes with more legs.
posted by meinvt at 11:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


You shouldn't have to agree with someone to respect or admire them. If Johnson can't even say some milquetoast response like "Well I think Justin Trudeau has been a very civil and admirable leader and I respect him for that, even though I agree with very few of his policies", how is he going to make any sort of effective compromise as President?
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


Arguably libertarians don't admire any foreign leaders because they don't believe the world outside the U.S. borders really exists.
He's not really a Libertarian, as I pointed out in an earlier post. I did a ton of reading on Johnson in order to convince a relative to vote for him instead of Trump (I live in a safe dark blue state, it's ok) and came to the conclusion that Johnson is just a hard right Republican who picked up the bong vote to steal millennials from Obama.
posted by xyzzy at 11:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


I have to admit that I have become rather fond of Orange Julius! He is doing us a great service!
He probably will lose the election, and that is good. But beyond that he is doing a great job in demolishing the party he is fronting for, and that is a great service to us all


I hope that's true, but I fear that the GOP will figure out that a campaign of authoritarianism, xenophobia, and racism has a good chance of succeeding if the message if coming from someone who is not an obviously megalomaniacal moron. Give Trump's message to a faithfully married Christian of more modest means who held a governorship or a senate seat and things could be realllllllllllllly bad.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:37 AM on September 29, 2016 [27 favorites]


..While Clinton was poised and prepared...
... the Clinton camp seems to be prepared for such an event...
...The debate itself showed how well she is able to prepare...
...Do the Trump campaign people not think that Clinton's team hasn't already prepared for this?

Let's face it: Hilary is Batman.
posted by PlusDistance at 11:37 AM on September 29, 2016 [19 favorites]


It's been almost 24 hours...and I still can't come up with a foreign leader I look up to. (real)

This quote needs to be in every thread from now until the election:
June 6 -- Boosting his friend George W. Bush to reporters, Gov. Gary Johnson of New Mexico recalls a conversation they had at a conference on state government. ''George turns to me and says, 'What are they talking about?' I said, 'I don't know.' He said, 'You don't know a thing, do you?' And I said, 'Not one thing.' He said, 'Neither do I.' And we kind of high-fived.''
posted by tonycpsu at 11:37 AM on September 29, 2016 [110 favorites]


>If Trump were to wage all-out war on the Clintons, he could rely on a veritable ocean of muck that the American right wing has accumulated over the years,

Or he could talk about his experience, his qualifications, and his policy ideas. Oh wait.

Seriously, all she has to do is point out that he's talking this stuff up because he's got nothing. NOTHING. Can I get a larger typeface? HE'S GOT NOTHING TO RUN ON. NOT A FIG.

Every time I try to look at something on YouTube on the Roku, where I can't block the ads, I get a Trump ad that says (appropriately for the intended audience, in three-word sentences), 'America made safe. Terrorists kept out.' You know, forty thousand people a year die in car accidents in this country, yet most people manage not to live in constant fear of them. And a candidate who promised to make you safe from car accidents (or shark attacks, or lightning strikes) would be immediately recognized as a guy making empty noises with his mouth, as a guy with nothing to talk about.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 11:38 AM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


Well, we've never seen Hillary and Batman in the same room together... so, I guess there's that.
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:39 AM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


Arguably libertarians don't admire any foreign leaders because they don't believe the world outside the U.S. borders really exists.

In that case he should've said something like "Chris, I'm wary of admiring leaders. As Bob Dylan once said, "Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters." And as President, my first act will be to meter the salaries of politicians!"
posted by octobersurprise at 11:39 AM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


I'm still a bit concerned by Assange's assertion that he supposedly has something he's going to release in October (surprise!) that will influence the election.

By October, it'll likely be too late for Assange to substantively influence anything. Whatever 'bomb' he drops will need to be vetted, and his and Wikileaks' recent, uh, interesting dalliances with both the alt-right and Russian hackers will undermine his credibility. If he had anything of value to drop, he'd do it now.
posted by Existential Dread at 11:40 AM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


And oh my god, it is such a boring scandal! I found it almost impossible to believe that anyone had ever cared about it.

If you think it's bad when these threads re-litigate issues from the primary, just wait until we're re-litigating the Clinton "scandals" of the 90s.
posted by nubs at 11:40 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


[Election 2016] If you stand for nothing, what’ll you fall for?

You won't fall at all, having never gotten up off of the floor, in the first place...
posted by littlejohnnyjewel at 11:41 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Damn, Octobersurprise! I was going to vote for The Quidnunc Kid, but you totally just got my vote.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:42 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Bringing this back from the previous thread:

Have other presidential campaigns been so leaky? I understand the practice of strategic leaks but Trump's don't seem that way at all even with Trump's razor considered. For example Acosta got a copy of their talking points document. I know from a couple of campaigns I've worked on those are really guarded. And here a reporter gets them all? Is that normal?


Every campaign has leaks (and leakiness is generally a precursor to losing), but I can't remember a campaign that has been as leaky as Trump's. I suppose it's a given considering how undisciplined he is and how much turnover there's been in his staff.

I can't wait for the tell-all books his campaign staffers are sure to write as soon as it's all said and done.
posted by joedan at 11:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Certainly there must be Somali warlords who have done things he liked.
posted by ckape at 11:44 AM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


[Election 2016] If you stand for nothing, what’ll you fall for?

You won't fall at all, having never gotten up off of the floor, in the first place...


yeah but the floor could be a ledge and you could roll off of it
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:45 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


If Johnson truly believes that all ~200 current world leaders are loathsome dimwits, as people are inventing as a defense, he could have just owned it: "Chris, there isn't a single leader in the world that I respect, because none of them place freedom as their most fundamental value. That's the change I want to make in this election".

That would have played great as a soundbite and aligns well with his base -- people who think everything is terrible. I mean, this is what we call bombing an interview. If a candidate for your workplace answered a question with a response like that, you'd rightfully think they were a bong-addled moron.
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:45 AM on September 29, 2016 [32 favorites]


Why does the unsubstantiated appearance of impropriety stick to Clinton so much more strongly than the evidence of impropriety sticks to Trump? Have people really fallen into a bottomless pit of truthiness?

I talked to a Trumpie recently who had all sorts of smack to talk about Clinton. Oh, she's so corrupt, she's arrogant, Ben Ga Zee, emails blah blah. When I refuted all of those points, and she was out of actual reasons, her answer was "Well, I just go with my gut."

Good thing she's not eligible to vote. ::shimmy::
posted by Kitty Stardust at 11:45 AM on September 29, 2016 [40 favorites]


Every campaign has leaks (and leakiness is generally a precursor to losing), but I can't remember a campaign that has been as leaky as Trump's.

In fairness, there hasn't been a campaign that's had so much stuff to leak in a long damn time. Mostly it's just boring internal polls.
posted by Etrigan at 11:46 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald Trump's medical report, as read by Dr. Zoidberg. Whoopwhoopwhoopwhoop!
posted by nicebookrack at 11:46 AM on September 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


Gary Johnson is already insufferable, he doesn't need to start quoting Bob Dylan
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:47 AM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


I really, really wish the IRS would develop a leak.

Or, c'mon, someone take one for the team, and beg for a presidential pardon, in the name of the country!
posted by Dashy at 11:47 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


Do the Trump campaign people not think that Clinton's team hasn't already prepared for this?

The Clinton campaign has prepared for it, but the press hasn't prepared to do anything but follow the bait when the big takeaways from the debate that HRC and her top surrogates are pushing were about stiffing businesses and not paying taxes.

The aim will be to ratchet up things so that CNN essentially has a "10 Days Till Trump Talks About Bill And His Penis" countdown clock, with surrogates hinting things and cablenews yacking about what he might say, what the response might be, which groups of voters it's aiming at, etc. Polling companies will start to ask about the 90s and whether Trump should raise the topic, which essentially lodges it in people's heads.

(It most likely will end in another "I'm just too polite to say it" bait-and-switch.)

I'm not saying that it's 27-dimensional chess, but when Stone and Bossie and Ailes are running some of the show, there's an obvious danger in thinking that Trump campaign is digging its own grave by fixating on women's bodies for days and days and days. It takes the focus off Clinton on the trail as she's shifting up a gear -- no prompter, a bit more riffing -- and deserves to earn headlines.

In passing: this official Trump ad (page 2) in a Columbus, OH coupon book is really fascinating in its deliberate amateurishness.
posted by holgate at 11:50 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


I can't wait for the tell-all books his campaign staffers are sure to write as soon as it's all said and done.

They've all signed crazy strict NDAs.
posted by zakur at 11:51 AM on September 29, 2016


My current 2016 campaign fantasy is that Trump keeps nthing down on the Lewinsky thing and then Clinton releases an ad in which Lewinsky tells her story and talks about her anti-bullying campaign and then endorses Clinton. Unlikely to happen, I know, but would be so awesome.

My other campaign fantasy is that someone, somewhere from Camp Clinton finds a way to use Ivana Trump's line (one of my personal mottos) from First Wives Club: "Don't get mad, get everything."
posted by melissasaurus at 11:52 AM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


What's going on outside Trumpton with the GOP? Has all the Koch money gone into the state elections? Did any sort of efficient working on-the-ground party machine materialise?
posted by Devonian at 11:54 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure what video game boss Gary Johnson is but I swear I can hear the Chocobo theme playing in my head every time I see him talk

He's not really a boss, he's the one who talks a big game but folds quickly. If Mass Effect were real, he'd be Conrad Verner.

"Uhh... hm... G-Galactus?"

That's world leader, not world eater.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:54 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Why does the unsubstantiated appearance of impropriety stick to Clinton so much more strongly than the evidence of impropriety sticks to Trump?

Misogyny.
posted by joedan at 11:55 AM on September 29, 2016 [74 favorites]


Clinton releases an ad in which Lewinsky tells her story and talks about her anti-bullying campaign and then endorses Clinton

Clinton and Lewinsky working together would bring up the vitriol against both women to a whole another level of ugly imagery, with Bill thumbs up, grinning the whole time. That would rile up the evangelicals further.
posted by Karaage at 11:56 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


My campaign fantasy is that Mitt Romney decides that he can still have a place in the history books as the savior of the American Republic and starts actively campaigning for Clinton. He obviously despises Trump and he knows that Trump would be a dangerously unstable president. I disagree on 98% of Romney's policies, but he's sane and has a sense of honor. There might not be a big chance, but I think there's a more than 0% possibility that he decides to try to swing the balance.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:56 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


I really, really wish the IRS would develop a leak.

If this happened, wouldn't his campaign simply claim the documents were a forgery, and then the IRS would refuse to comment on the authenticity of the returns, being as they were illegally obtained?
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:56 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


How can Johnson not name a single world leader when dreamy Justin Trudeau is in headlines again for being charming with (royal) babies?
posted by nicebookrack at 11:57 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


In passing: this official Trump ad (page 2) in a Columbus, OH coupon book is really fascinating in its deliberate amateurishness.

Come on, that can't be official, can it? That has to just be Jimmy-coupon-printer going into business for himself. "Corrupt" is misspelled, for chrissake.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:00 PM on September 29, 2016


I really thought this was going to be the Libertarians big year. They had two former GOP governors who seemed on paper to give the ticket real credibility. The major party nominees have low approval ratings. Lots of GOP/Libertarian friendly donors are sitting out the Presidential contest and refusing to give to Trump -- the money should be there.

Johnson has managed to completely fuck up. He peaked at 12% in the polls and has fallen back to 8%. He hasn't be able use use national media appearances to break out, instead he's blowing easy questions and offering no message discipline. He can't present himself as a credible option and so the big donors like the Koch brothers are staying out.
posted by humanfont at 12:00 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


What do we have here? Why it's the Cuba talking points!

Trump's campaign is a sieve right now.
posted by Talez at 12:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


So Trump won't reveal his plan to defeat ISIS, but he'll telegraph the attack line he's going to use in the second debate?

I mean, honestly... he can't. He simply can not now bring up Bill's infidelities, because he's given Clinton far too long to come up with a response. So much time, in fact, that I suspect she not only is prepared with a response, she's calculated all his possible follow-ups in case this is some elaborate trap, and she's got a response ready for that. Because the only thing she telegraphs is the fact she'll damned well out-plan Trump.

I mean, I wouldn't put it past her to have somehow not gone after him hard enough in the first debate in order to provoke this discharge when it would have the least possible effect on her, and the most negative effect on him.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 12:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


He's not really a Libertarian, as I pointed out in an earlier post. I did a ton of reading on Johnson in order to convince a relative to vote for him instead of Trump (I live in a safe dark blue state, it's ok) and came to the conclusion that Johnson is just a hard right Republican who picked up the bong vote to steal millennials from Obama.

I was talking with a Libertarian friend about Johnson on Facebook today. I don't think he would mind me reposting this here. I found it all pretty interesting.

Me: I get the impression that he's very informed in some areas but not so much in other, pretty crucial ones.

Him: Agreed.

The big fight within the LP this year was between the "AnCap" faction and what I'm going to call the "rational" faction. The AnCaps literally boo'd the government prohibiting the blind from driving.

Johnson himself has his problems regarding on the spot trivia (not to minimize that, these are important factoids, and I expect a presidential candidate to be MORE informed than myself). However, his policy positions are absolutely the best the LP has had in 20 years, and really provide a strong basis for a mainstream party.

To compare,

Take Bob "The Moustache" Barr in 2008. The man was pro-life. Thankfully, the LP's platform now reads:

"Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration."

Me: I imagine that if current trends continue and the Libertarians get more mainstream, they'll also wind up dumping the more radical/weird parts of the platform?

Him: Oh man. There was a great article on this... I'm having a hard time finding it.

Basically the premise was that from 1970ish-2008ish the LP was kept alive by "radical/weird" parts tending the flame on rigidly held principles, but from 08 on, as the party has become more mainstream, the rigidity of the platform has been softened, because you don't build a big tent/coalition without compromise.

Thus the whole "Gary Johnson is not a true libertarian!!1!" meme.
----

From my viewpoint, there are several major factions in the Libertarian coalition:

Classical Liberals (Gary Johnson)
AnarchoCapitalists /minarchists / libertines (naked guy, Mcaffee, code wilson and defense distributed)
Silicon Valley Libertarians (Most of these are philosophically aligned, but not yet politically.)
Cyberlibertarians (JP Barlow, EFF etc)
Small Government Republican Refugees (the Pauls, Bob Barr)

Thankfully, the "Alt-Right" (white supremacists, bigots etc) has left the LP in favour of Donald Trump. Which in the future will hopefully make the LP more appealing to the Si Valley libertarians.

posted by showbiz_liz at 12:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]




Our girls wanted to watch the first debate.

7-year-old: Why is he being so rude?
4-year-old: He needs glasses. He's squinting.
7: Why does he keep talking over her? Oh, that was really rude!
4: Donald Trump, you need to be more polite!
7: No, no, no, not Trump!
4: I can't look any more! *runs away*
posted by gottabefunky at 12:02 PM on September 29, 2016 [146 favorites]


What do we have here? Why it's the Cuba talking points!

Trump's campaign is a sieve right now.


It's as if, taking their cue from the man at the top, Trump's campaign is too lazy even to do interviews.

[fake]

REPORTER: Any comment on $TOPIC?

TRUMP CAMPAIGN SPOX: Hold on, I'll email you our talking points.

[/fake]
posted by Gelatin at 12:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Clinton and her lawyers have separated her work emails from personal ones and then sent the work ones to the State Department.

Honestly, this is the real problem with using your work email for personal use - it's nearly impossible to sort even with the best intentions, and the normal thing you'd do for compliance - sending everything - risks all kinds of personal communications being now a matter of public record and exposable. Once she already did that, there was no good way forward for her.
posted by corb at 12:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Gottabefunky, that is basically the entire last election thread, perfectly summed up.
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Stein trolls Johnson on world leaders gaffe, also fails to name world leaders [real]

A day after Johnson was unable to name a world leader he admired when asked at an MSNBC town, Stein tweeted out a list of her own. May, Stédile, and Corbyn, however, aren't technically world leaders, as none holds a top position in their country's government. May is a member of the Canadian House of Commons. Stédile is an economist and member of Brazil's Landless Rural Workers Movement, which he helped found. Corbyn is the leader of the Labour Party in Britain.

Ehhhhhh, i'll give her that one. They're definitely leaders in the world, granted maybe not as internationally known. 3/4 of the voters in america wouldn't recognize those names, much less the fact that they aren't technically heads of state.
posted by Karaage at 12:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


In passing: this official Trump ad (page 2) in a Columbus, OH coupon book is really fascinating in its deliberate amateurishness.
  • Is that default Times New Roman or one of the new Microsoft fonts?
  • Bulleted lists that ramble and Use Inconsistent Methods of Capitalization.
  • Is "Extremely Successful Real Estate Developer of Hotels, Commercial Office Space, Etc." a job title? If not, Why Is Every Word Capitalized?
  • ALL CAPS IN RED
  • Positions statements that require:
    1. A nested list
    2. Why are they numbered?
    3. STOP using caps lock.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


What do we have here? Why it's the Cuba talking points!

Trump's campaign is a sieve right now.


And now they get to freak out about who is leaking everything as well!
Though with Trump's Razor as a guide it could very well be just due to simple stupidity, like someone goes to the bathroom and leaves their papers where people can get to them.
posted by Jalliah at 12:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's worth noting that one of Stein's choices, Elizabeth May, also has a history of playing footsie with the "WiFi signals are killing our children" and homeopathy crowds.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


Come on, that can't be official, can it?

You'd think so, wouldn't you? But I'm sure it fits into its context. And if you look at wingnut junk mail -- or just the crazy collage images that every other fucking Trumpsterbot slaps up on social media -- then there's definitely a Great-Uncle Ernie Bought Microsoft Publisher aesthetic to it.

hashtag 2016 everything is trolling.
posted by holgate at 12:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


4 : I can't look any more! *runs away*

I did exactly this when Lester Holt asked started asking his questions about race, so good for your youngest.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clinton campaign now directing people straight to early voting office after rally in Iowa.

This is what a ground game looks like. They are not letting this up for a second. Full court press until the very end.
posted by Talez at 12:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [89 favorites]


Clinton releases an ad in which Lewinsky tells her story and talks about her anti-bullying campaign and then endorses Clinton

This would be amazing. Unlikely to ever happen, but amazing.

"This election, and our country, is too important to stay home or vote for a candidate who doesn't have a chance. So I'm with Her. And if I can put my differences with Hillary Clinton aside in the interests of protecting our country from Donald Trump, anyone can."
posted by sallybrown at 12:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


I really thought this was going to be the Libertarians big year. They had two former GOP governors who seemed on paper to give the ticket real credibility.

Well, they've certainly continued in the proud tradition of former-Massachusetts-governors-turned-presidential-candidates.
posted by Mayor West at 12:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Monica strikes me as a very sad, dignified, wise woman, and I am grateful she has not put herself in the hands of Trump like Flowers and Broaddrick. I'm unsurprised she wants no part of this business.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [59 favorites]




Exclusive: The Creator of Pepe the Frog Is Voting for Hillary:
In 2005, Matt Furie—then in his early 20s—created a comic book called Boys Club in which a cartoon frog named Pepe acted out the dumb, laid-back stoner culture of post-college bros. Pepe, along with a wolf, a dancing bear, and a sarcastic dog, would play harmless pranks on one another. Furie, who was living in San Francisco at the time after attending Ohio Wesleyan University, would print the comic out at Kinkos and mostly distribute it to his small group of friends.

Today, the Anti-Defamation League officially recognized Furie's cartoon frog as a hate symbol, one that has been hijacked by the alt-right and Internet trolls, championing white nationalism and a cartoon-frog-looking hero, Donald Trump.

It's thrown Furie into what he calls an idiotic joke, where his innocent frog is now listed alongside the swastika and the burning cross and other "symbols most frequently used by a variety of white supremacist groups and movements," the ADL explains.

But that is not in any way what Furie—a professional artist who makes comic and children's books—originally intended.
My buddy and I recently saw the collected 'Boys Club' for sale at a local comics shop and felt bad for how this poor dude's work has been appropriated by assholes.
posted by palindromic at 12:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [48 favorites]




Come on, that can't be official, can it?

My favorites things about that:

1) Tries to depict Hillary as a "blank slate" despite that being the opposite of the usual Trump tactic and the dumbest imaginable move
2) Cites "presidential candidate" as one of Trump's qualifications
3) "Lady VP of construction"
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:16 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


God, what must that be like, to design something that then becomes a hate symbol? I can't even imagine.
posted by corb at 12:17 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


In my world where Donald comes at Hillary with Bill's various sins, she just lays some hard "I wouldn't pull at that thread" facts at him and then Nicki Minaj comes out and goes, "What's good, Donald?"

But I'm petty like that.
posted by ApathyGirl at 12:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


What do we have here? Why it's the Cuba talking points!
The Clinton Spin Machine and their allies in the media are getting desperate, and it's pretty sad they have to go back 10, 20 or even 30 years to try to try [sic] to attack Mr. Trump.
Whitewater: 27-37 years ago
Suicide of Vince Foster: 23 years ago
Monica Lewinsky affair: 20 years ago
posted by kirkaracha at 12:21 PM on September 29, 2016 [32 favorites]


God, what must that be like, to design something that then becomes a hate symbol? I can't even imagine.

feels bad man
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:21 PM on September 29, 2016 [79 favorites]


to try to try [sic] to attack Mr. Trump.

The [sic] is unnecessary. In Trumpland they're not just trying to attack Trump. They're trying to try to attack Trump.
posted by mazola at 12:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


...it's pretty sad they have to go back 10, 20, even 30 years to try to attack ...

...it's pretty sad they have to go back 10, 20, even 30 years to try to attack ...

...it's pretty sad they have to go back 10, 20, even 30 years to try to attack ...

Remind me, what century were Bill Clinton's sexcapades in, again?

(on preview, kirkaracha.)
posted by invincible summer at 12:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I for some reason, was watching the first town-hall debate — the one in 1992 with Bush, Clinton, and Perot...

Today:
You hear that giant sucking sound ?

That's Donald Trump.
...ad infinitum.
posted by y2karl at 12:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


The Clinton Spin Machine and their allies in the media are getting desperate, and it's pretty sad they have to go back 10, 20 or even 30 years to try to try [sic] to attack Mr. Trump.

Just a reminder that the Trump Foundation revelations generally occurred within the last decade.

But that's okay, Donald, we know your record of double-dealing dates back decades.
posted by Gelatin at 12:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


The thing I find really frustrating about Johnson is that, unlike most Libertarians, he actually does have designs on maintaining certain military conflicts, particularly in the Middle East. So he wants to cut the military in half in terms of budget and personnel, but still expects our guys and gals to fight their hearts out against ISIS and other terroristic enemies while continuing to defend Israel and intervening in places like Somalia and Uganda. And despite this, he didn't know what Aleppo was and can't name foreign leaders.

This is consistent with a common thing I see in libertarians -- Details Don't Matter. Privatization takes care of it. Private force takes care of it. Liberty takes care of it. Shit's easy.

And the funny thing? The little-l libertarians I've known are less libertarian and more supportive of public commons and regulation in the areas where they know more details (even if of course that's an exception, and as a general rule, the Big Ideas are The Right Thing, right?).
posted by wildblueyonder at 12:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump expanding his campaign pledge to EVERYTHING: "We have 41 days to make possible every dream you've ever dreamed."
— Alexandra Jaffe @ajjaffe
Who is it who promises to fulfill your ever dream? Let's see — could it be Satan?
posted by octobersurprise at 12:29 PM on September 29, 2016 [56 favorites]


And there are hints that Trump plans to use Bill Clinton's sex scandals against Hillary, which could go very badly for him, as the Clinton camp seems to be prepared for such an event.

Everyone is prepared for such event. There's dredging up old news, like no one cares old.

For (personal) perspective: there was some comedian at a daytime review-type show Las Vegas circa 2004 who had a Clinton BJ joke, and it was cringe-worthy old then.

The only reason I could see bringing up such old items is that 1) of course, they have nothing else to say to distract from the (old) Cuba revelation, and/or 2) they're trying to "inform" younger voters on Bill's past performances, to sour them on Hillary ... for not leaving Bill? Somehow Donald is better because he's on marriage #4 or whatnot?
posted by filthy light thief at 12:29 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I was a Republican in the first part of the 90s and even I thought the Whitewater thing was poo.

(maybe that's why I'm not one anymore? Rush Limbaugh didn't help, that's for sure.)
posted by emjaybee at 12:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump expanding his campaign pledge to EVERYTHING: "We have 41 days to make possible every dream you've ever dreamed."

trumpo.com
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [26 favorites]


Flashman: "I guess it's nice to have yet another albatross to hang around Trump's neck, but the Cuba embargo is (was?) such a bad law that I wouldn't begrudge any American for breaking it."

You don't get credit for breaking a law for that reason unless you do it publicly ala civil disobedience.

savetheclocktower: "Which means, annoyingly, libertarians are usually free to argue “if we just tried a completely deregulated market it would work” no matter the topic because the most recent counterexamples are from, like, Victorian England."

Plenty of failed states have deregulated markets.
posted by Mitheral at 12:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Who is it who promises to fulfill your ever dream? Let's see — could it be Satan?

No, Pedro.
posted by zakur at 12:35 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


In passing: this official Trump ad (page 2) in a Columbus, OH coupon book is really fascinating in its deliberate amateurishness.

Holy crap. I'm not even sure Philip K Dick was enough of a fatalist to predict a future where a false flag operation to discredit someone's supporters as unhinged lunatics with the mental acumen of a room full of third-graders is indistinguishable from actual campaign activities.
posted by Mayor West at 12:37 PM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


In passing: this official Trump ad (page 2) in a Columbus, OH coupon book is really fascinating in its deliberate amateurishness.

Am I bad at identifying celebrities, or is Rosie O'Donnell on page two in a photo montage with Gene Simmons?
posted by snofoam at 12:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Boy's Club is currently available at the Humble Book Bundle: Forbidden Books collection; $1 gets it and several others.

I got it (I get a lot of HumbleBundle book sets), looked through it, and I am entirely unsurprised that Pepe was grabbed as a mascot for people who think "fuck you, I do what I want" is a reasonable political philosophy. He's shown in a "Got MILF" t-shirt, and later with one that says "Happiness is a Large Gutpile" over a picture that I'm very glad was a line drawing and not colored. (I don't know why Pepe instead of one of the other characters, though.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


If the Cuba thing could plausibly be made as effective ammunition against Trump (which again I doubt), it would be on his proposed import tariffs: If Trump's own businesses willfully ignored legal embargoes, why would other businesses not off-the-books importers to get around enormous import tariffs?
posted by 0xFCAF at 12:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


"We have 41 days to make possible every dream you've ever dreamed."

Internal monologue:

Oh, haha, very funny, another rando on Twitter trying to make a name for herself with a thinly-veiled Broadway musical analogy.

Wait. The phrasing is wrong. It couldn't be...

*googles*

*shakes fist* 2016!
posted by Mayor West at 12:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's worth noting that one of Stein's choices, Elizabeth May, also has a history of playing footsie with the "WiFi signals are killing our children" and homeopathy crowds.

Elizabeth May has been surprisingly effective in opposition as the only Green MP in Canadian Parliament, and frequently the most effective debater when she's been in federal election debates. She's an engaging and insightful author who is, with exceptions, plausibly sensible. She's is carrying her party on her shoulders, the only reason the Greens are taken halfway seriously as a national party. If Stein's goal is to split the vote and get Trump elected she couldn't pick a better role model.

Fortunately for all of us, Stein ain't no May.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


Whitewater? Really? Even when that was fresh no one could make it sound interesting. The Republicans were all scuffing their feet and muttering about real estate.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 12:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Josh Marshall on the Machado bait: These words amount to what we might term 'stand-up narcissism', a demonstration of a personality defect so profound and total that it becomes comedic in a way that makes a decent run at transcending its own awfulness. His self-regard and conscienceless-ness is so total that it is beyond him to realize that his "a good deed never goes unpunished" lament doesn't make him look like a chauvinist asshole so much as a clownish version of a chauvinist asshole. It so perfectly mirrors Trump's self-immolation with the Khans that it's hard to believe the Clinton staffers who planned this could have imagined it would work so well.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


savetheclocktower: "Which means, annoyingly, libertarians are usually free to argue “if we just tried a completely deregulated market it would work” no matter the topic because the most recent counterexamples are from, like, Victorian England."

Plenty of failed states have deregulated markets.

I actually came to point out that we came close enough here, and it was a disaster. A reminder that The Jungle is now freely available on Project Gutenberg.
posted by mordax at 12:44 PM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


Hillary Clinton has been prepared for someone to bring up Bill's infidelity ever since it came out, if not before. It's not like it's new material, people have been trying to tar her with that brush since the nineties. She's not just prepared, she's practiced. It's, like, the absolute most obvious line of attack anyone could take against her, and it's never worked yet—with the exception of her defeat in the 2008 primaries, her political career has been a relentless upward climb since pretty much forever.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:45 PM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


Earlier today, I was thinking there's just so many people I wish were still around to give us their take on this election cycle and especially on Trump: Hunter S Thompson, Molly Ivins, George Carlin, Anne Richards... the list goes on and on.

I bet the articles they're writing and the shows they're doing in Heaven about all this are absolutely mind-blowing.
posted by lord_wolf at 12:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


if you're in the afterlife that gets coverage of the 2016 presidential election I have some bad news for you
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [170 favorites]


They also can't point to any nations on earth that have tried the sorts of things that libertarians are advocating for because the US is already the most libertarian of developed nations. Which means, annoyingly, libertarians are usually free to argue “if we just tried a completely deregulated market it would work” no matter the topic because the most recent counterexamples are from, like, Victorian England.

@LukewSavage:
Gary Johnson says a lot of stupid shit. But know what's stupider? A political philosophy that seeks to commodify the fucking air supply.

CHRIS MATTHEWS: "Name a world leader"
GARY JOHNSON: "The entire prison system should be run for profit"


CHRIS MATTHEWS: "Name a world leader"
GARY JOHNSON: "Collective bargaining is a moral evil"


CHRIS MATTHEWS: "Name a world leader"
GARY JOHNSON: "Workplace safety laws are a classic example of government overreach"


Ron Paul on Civil Rights "a massive violation of the rights of private property and contract, which are the bedrocks of free society.”

Anyways, it's super cool that libertarians want to legalize pot.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:52 PM on September 29, 2016 [70 favorites]


I can imagine a version of Heaven that allows for a constant stream of smug superiority to the mortal realm. But if you're in the same afterlife as Hunter S. Thompson, then you are in fact screwed.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


National treasure Charles Pierce relates that a circuit court has struck down New Hampshire's law banning "ballot selfies."
posted by Gelatin at 12:54 PM on September 29, 2016


But if you're in the same afterlife as Hunter S. Thompson, then you are in fact screwed.

I dunno, if I end up on Riverworld, I'd be totally cool with Hunter S. Thompson on my raft.
*thinks*
Oh. I see your point.
posted by mordax at 12:56 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Ron Paul on Civil Rights "a massive violation of the rights of private property and contract, which are the bedrocks of free society.”

Particularly odious due to the historical discourse on "property rights" being often code for slavery
posted by thelonius at 12:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


My buddy and I recently saw the collected 'Boys Club' for sale at a local comics shop and felt bad for how this poor dude's work has been appropriated by assholes.

I think Furie can look to Chuck Tingle on a lesson on how to conduct world-class countertrolling. I hope Furie can figure out a way to take back his own creation and stick it to the racists in the process.
posted by tclark at 12:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


It so perfectly mirrors Trump's self-immolation with the Khans that it's hard to believe the Clinton staffers who planned this could have imagined it would work so well.

Observing how effectively Clinton has baited Trump time-and-time-again through precision-targeted attacks on his ego is similar to the feeling of watching a dog being repeatedly fooled by fake throws of a tennis ball, or a wayward toddler being tricked into eating his vegetables by making a "fun" game of it. Only instead of cute and amusing, it's pathetic and scary.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


Nevada has just turned blue in the 538 polls-only forecast.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [58 favorites]


If you think Whitewater is boring, wait until you learn about Travelgate, a scandal that involved seven years of investigation over a couple of employees in the White House Travel Office being fired. Even Kenneth Star couldn't find anything to pin on Bill Clinton over this.
posted by zachlipton at 12:59 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]




That Josh Marshall article also reiterates a key point about the Machado trap: The 'charges' against Trump are nothing more than things he said on video. There are no charges. Just quotes. There is nothing in dispute. It's just showing people what he said.

Indeed.

That's why any debate with Clinton is, ultimately, a trap. With a smile and a shimmy, Clinton showed that she can transcend people's unfairly unfavorable opinions of her; Trump showed what he always shows -- that he's a raging, unprepared, intemperate blowhard. His fans eat it up; the majority of Americans, as polls consistently show, not so much.

I actually came to point out that we came close enough here, and it was a disaster.

Indeed, and Democrats fail to point this fact out often enough when Republicans complain about regulations: We tried an unregulated free market already, and it was a disaster.
posted by Gelatin at 1:02 PM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


Today I had the distinct privilege of attending an open discussion with Jamelle Bouie, (Slate chief political corespondent + CBS political news analyst) who came to talk to folks at my company about race and politics.

He had a lot of really smart, big-mind things to say about the current election. But he opened with remarks about the Republican party and how they've changed over the years.

I was able to ask a question: "As the republican party becomes radicalized, I'm worried that it will pull the democratic party to the right. You've told us what you're seeing on the right, can you talk a bit about what you are seeing happen on the left?

He said that there are a lot of lefts
- The washington institutional left - there is optimism because the rise of immigrant, POC, and female voters are giving the party more power. In the 1990s, the democratic party decided to abandon the far left and try to scoop out centrists, to gain power. But today, because of these new people joining the party, there is no electoral pressure to move to the right.

- The activist left: Some optimism, e.g. the Black Rights Matter movement has had a huge rise, and more and more Americans are sympathetic to BLM. But there is also pessimism because many activists see the problems in the nation as being intractable.

- The (for lack of better name) "Bernie Sanders Left": still adrift. Many different things attracted people to sanders, and there's no clear issue to coalesce around. It still remains to be seen if sanders' supporters will join politics, or if they will just give up.

He finished his answer by saying that it is really, really easy for small groups of people to make a difference. He said that you and 25 of your friends can go downtown and join the party and then suddenly you ARE the local party branch. And your local branch has a national voice. This is what happened with the tea party. If sanders' supporters wanted, they could drastically change the democratic party over the next 10-15 years.

I thought that was super interesting, so big thanks to Jamelle if you are on metafilter for coming out.
posted by rebent at 1:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [135 favorites]


this official Trump ad (page 2) in a Columbus, OH coupon book is really fascinating in its deliberate amateurishness

you sure it's deliberate?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 1:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Cmd F "Draining" "France" "Election"
posted by piyushnz at 1:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


What It’s Like to Be a Female Reporter Covering Donald Trump:
“I think you don’t realize the emotional cost of every single day, twice a day, being in rooms where the norm has become people shouting out, ‘Hang the bitch,’ ‘Kill her,’ ‘Cunt,’” [an anonymous woman] reporter said. “You shouldn’t be at the point where you hear ‘Cunt’ and you think, Oh, they’re angry at Hillary, or you hear ‘Bitch,’ and you’re like, Oh, they’re talking about our former secretary of State.”

She went on, “I do wonder what it does to you as a woman, walking into rallies where people are wearing these shirts, saying these things, and speaking about women in these ways, and either having to hear it or getting to the point where you don’t hear it. Those words and those phrases should be jarring. That should never become normal, and if and when it does, some emotional cost has been extracted.”
Thirty-nine days, eight hours, fifty minutes until this election is over...
posted by Doktor Zed at 1:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [116 favorites]


Kinda sucks to see Gary Johnson getting pilloried for his ignorance rather than his horrible political views (from twitter).

CHRIS MATTHEWS: "Name a world leader"
GARY JOHNSON: "Workplace safety laws are a classic example of government overreach"

CHRIS MATTHEWS: "Name a world leader"
GARY JOHNSON: "The entire prison system should be run for profit"
posted by straight at 1:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Particularly odious due to the historical discourse on "property rights" being often code for slavery

Yeah! If an entire society wants to engage in a conspiracy to block certain races from essential private services then those people affected should find a new society!

Strict libertarians are such fucking morons.
posted by Talez at 1:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Frankly, I’m concerned that Gary Johnson may be damaging the cause of legalization.
posted by nicepersonality at 1:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


Gary Johnson says a lot of stupid shit. But know what's stupider? A political philosophy that seeks to commodify the fucking air supply.

Not sue what this is referring to, but it probably isn't about a Moon Is A Harsh Mistress–type situation where air really is a commodity since, y'know, you live on the moon. Anyway, regarding the more general point, the nice thing about commodities is that they belong to people, and if someone else damages them then the owner has the law on their side to fix the situation.
Before the Clean Air Act was passed in 1972, Milwaukee was dumping raw sewage into Lake Michigan. Chicago was having to clean up its drinking water from Lake Michigan to get Milwaukees sewage out. Chicago sued -- the state of Illinois, really -- sued Milwaukee and said, You are polluting our water; its our property right to clean water; youre taking it from us. The court ruled, all the way to the Supreme Court, I believe, that Milwaukee was violating Chicagos rights. Along came the Clean Water Act, EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) set down some technological standards, said, Put these filters on your pipes. Milwaukee did it. It still didnt clean the water up; but Milwaukees defense was, Weve done what government said we have to do. It basically obliterated a property rights solution and substituted for it a far less superior regulatory solution. And to this day, Milwaukee dumps raw sewage into Lake Michigan.
EconTalk Episode with Terry Anderson, a founder of "Free Market Environmentalism"

I'm surprised at how much pushback Gary Johnson is getting here. My assumption is that people vote for third parties more on the basis of their founding principles than on the personal characteristics of whoever the candidate is this year.

Is anyone here genuinely concerned that he'll take more votes from Clinton than from Trump in swing states? Because if not, just let people vote third party to make a statement, and look forward to President Clinton in 2017.
posted by Rangi at 1:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Clinton releases an ad in which Lewinsky tells her story and talks about her anti-bullying campaign and then endorses Clinton

I’ve fantasised about Monica Lewinsky coming out in favour of Hillary, because I imagine her looking at a misogynist bully like Trump and, umm, not liking him.

But even it wasn’t for all the very good personal reasons why she might not want to endorse Hillary: I just can't see her putting herself back in the crossfire like that. She’s probably dreading being dragged back into this whole shitstorm as it is, without encouraging it.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:20 PM on September 29, 2016 [37 favorites]


OK so there's been a massive schism in the alt-right, The Daily Stormer has come out against Breitbart's own Milo Yiannopoulos (all links in this post are archive.is links because I'm not linking direct to this trash). Breitbart has noticed and shots have been fired.

I'm pretty fucking smug right now.
posted by Talez at 1:20 PM on September 29, 2016 [40 favorites]


I get the sentiment, but the countdown clocks are misleading. This election has awoken forces that won't go away quietly, and the 2018 mid-term begins on November 9th, 2016, as the Democrats will be facing a massive battle to either hold their bare Senate majority, or to stop the bleeding and prevent the Republicans from taking commanding control. Dems are defending 25 seats to only 8, with no obvious pickup opportunities and only ground to lose in states like Montana, West Virginia, Ohio, Missouri, Indiana, Florida, and even Pennsylvania or Michigan. Another no-show in the midterm like 2010 and 2014 puts Republicans in sight of 60 seats in the Senate, and control of the House ahead of the 2020 census and the opportunity to lock in unbreakable gerrymandering for another decade.

November 8 is not remotely the end point.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:20 PM on September 29, 2016 [61 favorites]


I don't really know what an undecided voter looks like in this election.

Good bet they're white, male, and straight.


Just about every Republican? Yep.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:21 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Is anyone here genuinely concerned that he'll take more votes from Clinton than from Trump in swing states?

Yeah, it does look like Johnson is taking some Clinton votes, since Clinton goes up by more points in a 2-way than Stein gets in the 4-way, and Trump does not go up as much in the 2-way as Johnson gets in the 4-way.

Colorado
Clinton 46, Trump 40, Johnson 6, Stein 2
Clinton 51, Trump 44

Florida
Clinton 45, Trump 43, Johnson 3, Stein 1
Clinton 48, Trump 45

North Carolina
Clinton 44, Trump 42, Johnson 7
Clinton 49, Trump 45

Pennsylvania
Clinton 45, Trump 39, Johnson 6, Stein 2
Clinton 49, Trump 44

Virginia
Clinton 46, Trump 40, Johnson 7, Stein 1
Clinton 49, Trump 43

Source
posted by rabbitrabbit at 1:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Mom! The deplorables are fighting again!
posted by zachlipton at 1:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [18 favorites]


Man I really dislike the NPR politics podcast, especially Sam Sanders. Trying to show sensitivity for the "low information voter." ("They're just trying to get a sense of these guys!")

Sam Sanders' Twitter is interesting and smart but on the podcast it seems like he's just chatting before an action movie or something, while also trying to do some massive false equivalence.
posted by zutalors! at 1:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Is anyone here genuinely concerned that he'll take more votes from Clinton than from Trump in swing states?"

Sure:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/clintons-third-party-headache-226700
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-is-gary-johnson-taking-more-support-from-clinton-or-trump/

I mean, who knows, it's hard to tell, but there is at least some evidence in that direction.
posted by bfields at 1:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


If anything comes up in the next week or so that causes me to lose confidence in the direction this campaign is going, I will read this article in today's Washington Post ("The first debate was a defeat for Trump. Here’s why the second could be an outright massacre"), especially the video it contains from a Town Hall during the primaries where she was asked a question about humility.
posted by DanSachs at 1:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [22 favorites]


Since there's no fucking way I'm clicking on even the archive links, what exactly is the cause of the schism?
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Jim Wright has published his characteristically-irate take on the debate over at Stonekettle Station.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:27 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Today, the Anti-Defamation League officially recognized Furie's cartoon frog as a hate symbol, ... But that is not in any way what Furie—a professional artist who makes comic and children's books—originally intended.

alt-right spin: Creator of an officially recognized racist hate symbol voting for Hillary! [fake, afaik]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:27 PM on September 29, 2016


I don't really know what an undecided voter looks like in this election.

The Guardian published a few of their statements this morning.
posted by still_wears_a_hat at 1:29 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I clicked that archive.is link at work, and now I regret it. :\
posted by defenestration at 1:30 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, it does look like Johnson is taking some Clinton votes, since Clinton goes up by more points in a 2-way more than Stein gets in the 4-way.

Counts for both her and Trump go up, and in all states she maintains basically the same lead:

Colorado: Clinton +6 → Clinton +7 (+1)
Florida: Clinton +2 → Clinton +3 (+1)
North Carolina: Clinton +2 → Clinton +4 (+2)
Pennsylvania: Clinton +6 → Clinton +5 (−1)
Virginia: Clinton +6 → Clinton +6 (+0)

I'm not worried about Johnson or Stein causing any of these states to go for Trump.
posted by Rangi at 1:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Since there's no fucking way I'm clicking on even the archive links, what exactly is the cause of the schism?

Milo is Jewish and doing 'Jewish' things.
posted by Jalliah at 1:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


what exactly is the cause of the schism?

Stormer is upset with Milo/Breitbart's more inclusive alt right approach [real]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


> OK so there's been a massive schism in the alt-right, The Daily Stormer has come out against Breitbart's own Milo Yiannopoulos
In some previous thread there was a Milo/Ernst Röhm comparison, inluding “outliving usefulness”... I guess we're there now.
posted by farlukar at 1:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've been saying that sooner or later Milo would try cuddling up to Nazis only to discover that Nazis hate homosexuals even if they're Nazi fetishists. I guess I'm glad this happened in a way that didn't involve violence?
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


I live in California and I am undecided for president. I might vote for Clinton. I might not.

If she loses California, however (barring some significant actual scandal), I will eat my shoes.

So it doesn't matter whom I vote for. I think that's why a lot of voters (i.e. everyone who doesn't live in one of those 5-6 swing states) are disaffected. We don't feel represented.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Man I really dislike the NPR politics podcast, especially Sam Sanders. Trying to show sensitivity for the "low information voter." ("They're just trying to get a sense of these guys!")

God, this. Sam Sanders is trying to win a Pulitzer for false equivalence. "This week, Trump admitted he's literally in consort with the Dark Lord Satan, but Clinton still is facing questions about her emails! Really both candidates are facing some challenges this week now that the Hellmouth is open due to an alleged ritual sacrifice done in Mike Pence's basement, which we do have footage of."
posted by 0xFCAF at 1:34 PM on September 29, 2016 [30 favorites]


We tried an unregulated free market already, and it was a disaster.

No, it was a disaster for everyone who wasn't already a rich, white, cis-het-etc dude, or directly under the protection of same. Well, and for certain unlucky dudes who failed to guess correctly which way the market would jump, but who cares about those losers?

The point is, if we had a free market today, with all our amazing info-resources, we could all get rich er many people would be better um several well-off white dudes could switch to being amazingly wealthy white dudes, so it's definitely time to bring that back.

[/sarcasm]

Non-sarcasm: I am endlessly entertained (because the other option is "collapse into a fetal position weeping") at how many far-right and libertarian proposals boil down to "please make it a law that I never have to give a damn about the life of any other human being."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:35 PM on September 29, 2016 [22 favorites]



The Guardian published a few of their statements this morning.


Mostly boil down to "Trump is a racist, but Hillary isn't doing enough to sway me based on the zero research I have done. It's also not my fault that Hillary isn't Bernie!"
posted by zutalors! at 1:36 PM on September 29, 2016 [34 favorites]


I think one legit reason to hope the polls are underestimating Clinton's actual lead is that in modern history we've never had such a huge disparity in campaign organization and get-out-the-vote ground game, so nobody really knows how much of a difference that disparity will make in getting voters to the polls. I assume some polls might try to take that into account as they weight their results, but I doubt they would err toward overestimating the effect.

So if a good GOTV ground game really does make a difference, I think it's reasonable to hope the current polls are underestimating how much better Clinton will do at getting her voters to the polls in the states where it matters most.
posted by straight at 1:36 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Sam Sanders has been horrible this entire election. His assignments seem to be "imagine the US consisted only of middle-aged white men who work in factories in Ohiogansylvania; who is winning that fictitious election and why are all other peoples' issues irrelevant?"
posted by melissasaurus at 1:37 PM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


NPR engage in false equivalence? You don't say.

That said, credit where due: On Monday Steve Inskeep turned in an outstanding profile of a Trump voter, who predicted "civil war" -- not that he plans to participate, mind you -- if Clinton wins.
posted by Gelatin at 1:37 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Since there's no fucking way I'm clicking on even the archive links, what exactly is the cause of the schism?

As I understand it, the Stormers claim that Milo Yiannopoulos has some sort of Jewish ancestry and so he's "He is taking our brand, our symbols, and turning them against us for a neocon-Jew conservative agenda." Then they call him a bunch of slurs for a Jewish person a few dozen times and call on people to harass him in public.

Basically, it seems they believe that Milo is soft-pedaling the horribleness of the alt-right, commercializing their dank memes and trying to convince people that only a small percentage are racist anti-Semites. As they wish to be known as the true racist anti-Semites, they are horrified someone, especially someone with any Jewish blood, would seek to diminish their importance, and so these guys have declared war.

Milo's scheduled talk on "How Feminism Hurts Women" at Florida Atlantic University was cancelled due to threats.
posted by zachlipton at 1:38 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]



God, this. Sam Sanders is trying to win a Pulitzer for false equivalence.


He said to be fair Donald Trump IS smart for dodging taxes. NPR Politics podcast is also annoying because the younger reporters are all "but we're millennials, how can we be expected to remember like, Bush and Kerry?" Meanwhile Harry Enten at 538 and all the Vox folks can talk in depth about like Eisenhower.
posted by zutalors! at 1:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


The Daily Stormer has come out against Breitbart's own Milo Yiannopoulos (all links in this post are archive.is links because I'm not linking direct to this trash)

*clicks*

...why is it Pokémon-themed‽
posted by Rangi at 1:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


If she loses California, however (barring some significant actual scandal), I will eat my shoes.

So it doesn't matter whom I vote for.


You saw that whole Brexit thing happen, right?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [99 favorites]


Gary Johnson thought the question was about a "whirled lieder" which are spinning German solo songs. Even I couldn't name one of them.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


At this point, and for safety's sake, I think we all need to keep a close eye on Trump campaign sites and watch for any unusually large deliveries of Kool-Aid.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Since there's no fucking way I'm clicking on even the archive links, what exactly is the cause of the schism?

Milo has been on the edge of the alt-right for a while now. He's really opportunist and people have been going either way on him. He's wrapped in his own scandal of stealing money for a white nationalist scholarship and his long known about "sexual degeneracy" being an openly gay man in what is basically a neo-nazi movement.
posted by Talez at 1:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


...why is it Pokémon-themed‽

4chan.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 1:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


...why is it Pokémon-themed‽

Pokémon is the Hamilton of much of the internet.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


Milwaukees defense was, Weve done what government said we have to do. It basically obliterated a property rights solution and substituted for it a far less superior regulatory solution. And to this day, Milwaukee dumps raw sewage into Lake Michigan.

Okay, but that's not replacing a free-market solution with a regulatory one, it's replacing a case-specific rule (you can't damage another person's property unreasonably with water pollution, for whatever definition of "unreasonably" a particular judge likes) with a national one that Gary Johnson says isn't strong enough (the Clean Water Act and its implementing regulations). The government is telling you what amount of water pollution is allowed either way.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Breitbart has noticed and shots have been fired.

Do they always put his name in ALL-CAPS for some reason?
posted by waitingtoderail at 1:43 PM on September 29, 2016


So it doesn't matter whom I vote for.

Personally, I think a clear and crushing repudiation of white supremacist fascism matters. YMMV.
posted by chris24 at 1:44 PM on September 29, 2016 [145 favorites]


NYT: Split Over Donald Trump and Cut Off by Culture Wars, Evangelicals Despair

I don't know if I count as an Evangelical anymore, but as a Christian I'm super bummed out by how many Evangelicals are supporting Trump. Seems like for a lot of them 30 years of right-wing propaganda that HRC is literally Satan has convinced them that absolutely anything would be better than her as president.
posted by straight at 1:46 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Before the Clean Air Act was passed in 1972, Milwaukee was dumping raw sewage into Lake Michigan. Chicago was having to clean up its drinking water from Lake Michigan to get Milwaukees sewage out. Chicago sued -- the state of Illinois, really -- sued Milwaukee and said, You are polluting our water; its our property right to clean water; youre taking it from us. The court ruled, all the way to the Supreme Court, I believe, that Milwaukee was violating Chicagos rights. Along came the Clean Water Act, EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) set down some technological standards, said, Put these filters on your pipes. Milwaukee did it. It still didnt clean the water up; but Milwaukees defense was, Weve done what government said we have to do. It basically obliterated a property rights solution and substituted for it a far less superior regulatory solution. And to this day, Milwaukee dumps raw sewage into Lake Michigan.
The guy who used to be in charge of the organization that gave us "Buy Ivory, Save an Elephant?" has some good ideas. Thanks so much for sharing!
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:47 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]




So it doesn't matter whom I vote for. I think that's why a lot of voters (i.e. everyone who doesn't live in one of those 5-6 swing states) are disaffected. We don't feel represented.

You're not represented because the person you want to win will probably win even if you don't vote? So elections only matter if they're really close and you personally get to cast the deciding vote?
posted by bongo_x at 1:50 PM on September 29, 2016 [77 favorites]




oh, izzatso?
posted by mazola at 1:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Fred Clark on the emotional integrity of a sincere liar:
On one side of that divide we have those who think that truthfulness has to do with speech that corresponds with external realities. On the other side we have those who think that truthfulness is a matter of passionate sincerity and sincere passion — of speech that corresponds with the speaker’s sentiments.
posted by metaquarry at 1:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


...that she already released? Wat?
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mostly boil down to "Trump is a racist, but Hillary isn't doing enough to sway me based on the zero research I have done. It's also not my fault that Hillary isn't Bernie!"

At this point in the race undecided voters seem to come in about four flavors:

Low information, just started paying attention.
Not really undecided, just fancy themselves "independent."
Regard elections as referendums on their own personal morality
Nuts

As to the latter, Buck is my favorite:
"[I want a government] that is somewhere between Libertarian and the Green party. Libertarian in general but with futuristic education, healthcare, and welfare systems covering all citizens while proactively protecting our environment. We could afford that, and a fantastic national infrastructure too, if we got out of the war business, brought all our troops home, and stopped subsidizing everyone else’s foreign wars that cost us trillions."
Look, you can't blame a dude for wanting to live in Star Trek.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [40 favorites]


No. The personal emails she deleted. She has to get them back somehow, and then we're allowed to talk about his taxes again.
posted by zachlipton at 1:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Would those be the emails the feds said were deleted the way everybody deletes emails, and not in order to hide something?
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump can't release his tax returns until Clinton shows us her high school diary. That's just simple physics; apparently the lamestream media can't even do math. Sad!
posted by 0xFCAF at 1:56 PM on September 29, 2016 [35 favorites]


I thought the Trump campaign's Russia office was working on that.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:56 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Okay, but that's not replacing a free-market solution with a regulatory one, it's replacing a case-specific rule (you can't damage another person's property unreasonably with water pollution, for whatever definition of "unreasonably" a particular judge likes) with a national one that Gary Johnson says isn't strong enough (the Clean Water Act and its implementing regulations).

Yeah, that's basically all about creating inefficiency in the name of how Libertarians *feel*. We have several basic options with regard to clean air and water:

1) Forget them.

2) Make a set of general rules everyone is expected to follow.

3) Allow this to go to court every time.

(1) isn't workable. See my referencing of The Jungle above. I think we can all agree we don't want to live in a poisoned hellscape - even Libertarians acknowledge that. Sort of. Sometimes. Mostly?

The difference between solutions (2) and (3) are basically about efficiency: companies can more easily plan for general, predictable rules than for individual rulings. It's no guarantee outcomes will be perfect - nothing is - but it at least allows everyone to be on the same page with how things should look before they break ground on new sites or anything.

In addition to being chaotic and unpredictable, (3) places smaller entities, (individuals, small businesses), at a distinct disadvantage against big ones. Think you're going to sue British Petroleum, private citizen? Heh. Nice one.

tl;dr: regulations may not be perfect, (I'm frequently unhappy with specifics), but the solution is 'better regulations' not 'court battle GO.'
posted by mordax at 1:56 PM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


God, this. Sam Sanders is trying to win a Pulitzer for false equivalence. "This week, Trump admitted he's literally in consort with the Dark Lord Satan, but Clinton still is facing questions about her emails! Really both candidates are facing some challenges this week now that the Hellmouth is open due to an alleged ritual sacrifice done in Mike Pence's basement, which we do have footage of."

I had an immediate visceral reaction to this comment of ‘hang on a minute, why am I reading this thread when I could be curled up in a dark room wallowing in the dependable reassuring comfort of rewatching Buffy?'
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


No. The personal emails she deleted

Should have clarified. Sorry.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]



Trump can't release his tax returns until Clinton shows us her high school diary. That's just simple physics; apparently the lamestream media can't even do math. Sad!

I think there is probably something about ISIS in her emails when she was an activist at University. She should release those too.
posted by Jalliah at 1:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


So it doesn't matter whom I vote for. I think that's why a lot of voters (i.e. everyone who doesn't live in one of those 5-6 swing states) are disaffected. We don't feel represented.

I live in Washington, DC, so I get where you're coming from. It doesn't matter who I vote for for president. DC's three electoral votes are Clinton's surest thing. I'm still voting, because every vote does matter. It is important to me that Donald's hateful agenda get denounced as strongly as possible, and my vote will make what I'm hoping to be a big landslide a tiny bit bigger. It needs to be as big as possible.

As for not feeling represented, I don't feel represented because I do not have a voting representative in the House, nor do I have Senators (and we only got those three electoral votes in 1961!). You do. Your Representatives and Senators make decisions for me and the almost 700,000 residents of the District of Columbia. If Donald is elected.....the District's relationship with conservatives in Congress is already sour, and given their track record, it's likely that we will be the guinea pigs for some of his more odious policies. Please remember this when you're making your downballot decisions.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 1:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [78 favorites]


This whole "take your pollution case to court" idea is moronic because it's based on the Coase Theorem, which has low transaction costs as a prerequisite. But a court case is probably the largest transaction cost a person could even imagine. It's like how Verizon figured out that it's basically fine to overcharge all people by $5, because once you ban class action, no individual can overcome the transactional barrier.

It just doesn't scale at all. How would you handle burning of leaded fuels? Sue each driver on the road for the tens of dollars of long-term damage they're doing to unknown future humans? It's insane.
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:00 PM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


Melissa Harris-Perry: How Trump Is Exploiting Clinton's Race Problem
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


On the subject of Milo:

There's a Neil Gaiman Sandman story where serial killers hold a secret convention. One dude isn't a serial killer; he's just a wormy wannabe who pretends to be one who's actually died, and sneaks in, because he wishes he was. When the real killers find him out, he protests: I understand what you do! I believe everything! I want to learn! You can probably guess how well this was received. (NSFL)

Milo, together with Katrina Pearson and other minority alt-righters, remind me of that story sometimes. For their own sake, I really don't want them to find out what's at the end of the rainbow they are chasing.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:02 PM on September 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


I am voting Clinton even though no one thinks Texas will go blue, because a. I have to go vote downticket anyway and b. fuck my state's current political landscape, seriously. Every Clinton vote I imagine as a tiny stab in that ignorant, hateful hellbeast. Not enough to kill. Not yet. But satisfying.
posted by emjaybee at 2:02 PM on September 29, 2016 [81 favorites]


I live in Puerto Rico. We pay Social Security tax and are required to register to be called up if the draft should return but have zero say about the general election for president. Viva democracy.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:04 PM on September 29, 2016 [41 favorites]


So it doesn't matter whom I vote for. I think that's why a lot of voters (i.e. everyone who doesn't live in one of those 5-6 swing states) are disaffected. We don't feel represented.

you know California will go for Clinton because lots and lots of Californians will get up and go to the polls and actually make the effort to vote for her and other Democrats, not because of some immutable natural law, right
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [132 favorites]


Trump Spokeperson Katrina Pierson: "The Media can't report on Trump not releasing his taxes anymore (since he has made it conditional on the release of Clinton's emails)"

I am honestly waiting for the moment when a Trump spokesdroid says something like this and a press member steps up and simply says out loud and on mic, "The fuck we can't, you stupid fuck." We have enough time left for things to boil down to this point. First round of beer is on me when it happens, kids. "Two-Hearted for the house, barkeep!"
posted by Thorzdad at 2:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Worth remembering that the popular vote is Trump's second chance for at least a pretend victory so it would be nice to see him solidly defeated there as well.
posted by Artw at 2:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [64 favorites]


So it doesn't matter whom I vote for. I think that's why a lot of voters (i.e. everyone who doesn't live in one of those 5-6 swing states) are disaffected. We don't feel represented.

I would argue it's because those unwilling to vote for Clinton over Trump are under-internalizing the potential damage Trump would cause to people and economies at home and around the world, or over-prioritizing their personal negative feelings about Clinton. In other words, they either lack understanding of what a Trump win would mean and what the chances are that it would cause disaster, or for some reason they can't bring themselves to align with Clinton. If you (not you personally, the general "you") understand that President Trump would almost certainly result in the kinds of statements, regulations, and Executive decisionmaking that would crash the national economy in ways unprecedented in our country's history (toppling the global economy that rests on our national economy); would have a higher chance of deploying a nuclear weapon than any President since Truman; would implement religious tests that betray our Constitution and founding principles; would make decisions based on what would enrich him personally; than your reason for not voting must be (a) you feel voting would be meaningless, and/or (b) you are unable to overcome some profound discomfort that voting for Trump's only real opponent makes you feel. But voting is of negligible cost to most people - a short few minutes of your time and perhaps some advance planning, especially in any early voting state. It's one of the few things our country requires of us, and far less painful than any other similar thing (paying taxes, registering for the draft). And it's slightly more important than meaningless, so why not do it? People of good conscience don't free ride. So what is really holding you back? If voting is not important, why not vote for Clinton? You dislike Secretary Clinton so much? Something in your self-conception demands that you not align yourself with her and her voters?

Lie to everyone if you have to. But don't go Nazi. In this election, silence is collaboration.
posted by sallybrown at 2:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [77 favorites]


So it doesn't matter whom I vote for. I think that's why a lot of voters (i.e. everyone who doesn't live in one of those 5-6 swing states) are disaffected. We don't feel represented.

well the way things shook out this year you will be represented at the executive level by either Trump or Clinton. If you prefer Clinton out of those two, you can rest assured that California's electoral votes will be going to her because lots and lots of Californians will get up and go to the polls and actually make the effort to vote for her, not because of some immutable natural law

so, take a moment out of feeling disaffected to be thankful for your fellow Californians who will be doing the work of helping to ensure your least unfavorite viable candidate gets elected! CA may be a foregone conclusion, but it doesn't happen by magic

edit: sorry for the sorta-double comment, it looked like the metafilter engines ate my first attempt
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [18 favorites]


NYT: Google Searches for Voter Registration Have Surged in Hispanic Areas

"Google trends data indicates that the searches for voter registration have surged over the last week — and that the highest rates of searches have been in disproportionately Hispanic areas.

By Wednesday evening, all of the top markets for searches for “register to vote” came in heavily Latino markets in Texas, California, Nevada, Arizona and Florida. The same pattern held into Thursday."
posted by chris24 at 2:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [26 favorites]


Non-sarcasm: I am endlessly entertained (because the other option is "collapse into a fetal position weeping") at how many far-right and libertarian proposals boil down to "please make it a law that I never have to give a damn about the life of any other human being."

No, its even worse than that. Nobody is forcing them to care, or even necessarily present an appearance of caring. Nobody expects a merchant selling you something to be passionate about collecting sales tax. They just have to do it. No, their problem is with any law that forces them to be even marginally inconvenienced for the sake of others.

I see this in the rabid frothing from the CopBlock folks, who I share a concern about accountability with. But many of them seem just as worked up over "road pirates," cops who might give them a ticket for speeding. The concept that a government might have a valid role in trying to shape the behavior of citizens into safer choices? Poppycock!

These folks, if asked to put down the game controller for five seconds and push a magic red button that would save someone's life, would tell you with anger that they'd been looking forward to beating this boss all week and to go bug someone else.
posted by phearlez at 2:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


I'm really disappointed in the Libertarian, to whom I donated not a small amount of time. I thought the problems with organization might have been local, but it appears it was but a microcosm.

I said from the moment I first heard from the candidates that their fortunes would have been so much better had they reversed the ticket. Weld has always seemed to be far more competent and eloquent.
posted by DrAstroZoom at 2:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump Spokeperson Katrina Pierson: "The Media can't report on Trump not releasing his taxes anymore (since he has made it conditional on the release of Clinton's emails)"

Yeah, good luck with that.

I wish the media would take the above statement as a challenge worth doing the hard work it'd take to report on the story, though. Ask David Farenthold -- sometimes it pays dividends.

(An interesting tidbit Farenthold mentioned in his Fresh Air interview was that he didn't set out to investigate Trump's foundation, merely the claim that he'd donated a million dollars to charity. And Trump's steadfast refusal to prove it led him to dig a little...then dig some more.)
posted by Gelatin at 2:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


I think one legit reason to hope the polls are underestimating Clinton's actual lead is that in modern history we've never had such a huge disparity in campaign organization and get-out-the-vote ground game, so nobody really knows how much of a difference that disparity will make in getting voters to the polls. I assume some polls might try to take that into account as they weight their results, but I doubt they would err toward overestimating the effect.

So if a good GOTV ground game really does make a difference, I think it's reasonable to hope the current polls are underestimating how much better Clinton will do at getting her voters to the polls in the states where it matters most.


There's a decent conversation at fivethirtyeight about what the polls might be missing, and Hypothesis #1 is the polls are underestimating Clinton's lead because of her superior ground game. The main point is that likely voter models should be picking up on that already. Part of Clinton's superior ground game is banking an early voting advantage. We saw that with Obama in 2012 and we saw it in almost every single primary. Clinton won the early vote (and often lost the vote share on election day but still won overall). Sanders supporters thought that meant that late voters were breaking for him - maybe, but it also reflected Clinton's organizational strength. As we get closer and closer to the actual election, more and more Clinton supporters will have already voted. The best way to identify likely voters is to ask them if they've already voted. My sense is that as we get closer and closer to Election Day, the polls will do a better job incorporating Clinton's superior ground game into their estimates.

Don't forget that a lot of postmortems thought Obama had a way better apparatus than Romney did in 2012. A lot of folks felt that he won Florida on the strength of his ground game. He was behind about 0.5% according to the polls on election eve, but he wound up winning by 0.5%. That's probably a good estimate of the influence of a superior ground game over and above what the polls are already capturing.
posted by one_bean at 2:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's surprising to me that people think their vote doesn't "matter" due to the large number of other people in the country.

For example, the sidewalks around my home aren't a disgusting mess only due to the large proportion of people who don't throw their trash on it. My own choice to not litter isn't some pointless gesture of civic pride - it's me engaging in the behavior that everyone has to in order to keep the place clean. It takes nearly all of us to not litter on the street. It takes many of us to vote for policies that don't actively screw with people's lives in profound and irreversible ways.

And if it turned out that half the country was hellbent on littering at every possible opportunity, it'd be even more important for me to try to not litter and to maybe do some more cleanup of my own.
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:16 PM on September 29, 2016 [65 favorites]


So it doesn't matter whom I vote for. I think that's why a lot of voters (i.e. everyone who doesn't live in one of those 5-6 swing states) are disaffected. We don't feel represented.

I don't mean to pile on, but I see so many people say some variation on this, and I'm sick of it. It honestly reminds me of anti-vaxxers, who are effectively relying on herd immunity to keep them safe from dying of whooping cough while opting out of the very process that grants them that safety.

I and countless other of your fellow POC, queer, immigrant, Jewish, Muslim, and/or disabled citizens have outright begged you (the general you) to get out there and vote, because it's the literal BARE MINIMUM thing you can do to stand in solidarity with us in this election where we have so very much at stake. Like, you don't have to get out there and march, you don't have to donate or volunteer your time, you don't even have to write impassioned screeds on the internet. You just have to vote. Because our stakes here are not abstract, they're distressingly concrete. Our stakes are the healthcare that keeps us alive, our right to marry who we love, our control of our reproductive choices, our first amendment rights, our economic wellbeing, our physical safety.
posted by yasaman at 2:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [189 favorites]


> I’ve fantasised about Monica Lewinsky coming out in favour of Hillary, because I imagine her looking at a misogynist bully like Trump and, umm, not liking him.

But even it wasn’t for all the very good personal reasons why she might not want to endorse Hillary: I just can't see her putting herself back in the crossfire like that. She’s probably dreading being dragged back into this whole shitstorm as it is, without encouraging it.


Lewinsky publicly endorsing Clinton seems like an extreme long shot. I doubt she has much fondness for either Clinton at this point. And she has remained a mostly private person in the intervening years.

If Trump does try to float the Lewinsky affair as an issue in this campaign, Hillary Clinton should simply respond that whatever Lewinsky may have done, it was decades ago and she doesn't deserve to be used as a prop for Trump to exploit for his own puposes. A simple "Shame on you, Donald Trump" and be done with it.
posted by Surely This at 2:19 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


I thought I read somewhere that Lewinsky wasn't supporting/voting for Clinton.

And, y'know, that's fine. That's totally fine.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's surprising to me that people think their vote doesn't "matter" due to the large number of other people in the country.

It's not the large number of people in the country, per se. It has more to do with how your particular state or district has swung over the years. Until Obama ran the first time, Indiana never mattered shit. But, for whatever reason, it swung for Obama. It still stayed hard Republican locally, though.

Election-night talking heads would do well to watch returns from Indiana. If it looks like we are actually going to elect Dems to both the Senate and Governorship, it's probably a good bet it's gonna be a Clinton landslide nationwide.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


0xFCAF: And if it turned out that half the country was hellbent on littering at every possible opportunity, it'd be even more important for me to try to not litter and to maybe do some more cleanup of my own.

Your statement captures my feeling seeing the "rolling coal" morons with their diesel smoke-stacks coming out of the beds of their jacked-up trucks - another reflection of the "screw it, I've got mine (and am going to spoil it)" attitude that Trump seems to have brought out.
posted by jazon at 2:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Apropos of nothing, I'm watching MTP right now, and I swear to God the look Joy Reid keeps giving Chuck Todd is definitely shades of "this is mine soon," and I love it.

Back on topic: Trump is polling at 30% among Latinx in NV?
posted by schadenfrau at 2:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


If I was Lewinsky I would probably just be out of the country for all of October/early November, someplace remote, and unavailable for comment.
posted by emjaybee at 2:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [27 favorites]


if they give MtP to Joy Reid I'll be so happy I won't even mind if Chuck Todd's sendoff doesn't involve a wicker man
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


Just repeating my main "reason to vote for Clinton even if you don't like Clinton" talking point.

She's much more likely to appoint progressive or progressive leaning justices to the Supreme Court. This effects policy for decades. Even if you object to Clinton on 75 different fronts, if you want to see progressive progress in your lifetime, vote Clinton and help make sure the court moves to the left (or at least away from the Scalian right).

If this doesn't persuade you but you are somebody who purports to support the rights of people who are currently oppressed in the United States, then vote look at the data about surging voter registration in Hispanic areas and consider voting in solidarity with the people most likely to be further oppressed under a Trump presidency.

If your argument is that you absolutely must not vote for Clinton because if she wins the Democrats will never change, consider whether you've done anything to usher in the kinds of changes that you'd like to see at the local level - like getting directly involved with local politics whose decisions impact you directly every single day. If the only attempt your making to change the Democratic party is to not vote for Clinton, then maybe that's not an especially strong reason to sacrifice the Supreme Court and vote against the interests of oppressed people.

I'm happy to share a long list of reasons to vote for Clinton if you need it but I don't want to clog up this discussion too much. My enthusiasm for her as a president runs deep.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [70 favorites]


"screw it, I've got mine"

Another way to see this - "whatever, let the other people in my Blue state feel like shitty sell-outs and do the emotional labor of voting for someone they aren't in love with politically...I'm going to stay home / throw my vote away and tell myself I stand for something! They'll make sure I'm taken care of and our world doesn't disappear in a great Trump-branded mushroom cloud!"
posted by sallybrown at 2:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [38 favorites]


Tecate Beer Commercial that trolls Trump.

"you're welcome, America."
posted by emjaybee at 2:27 PM on September 29, 2016 [38 favorites]


if they give MtP to Joy Reid I'll be so happy I won't even mind if Chuck Todd's sendoff doesn't involve a wicker man

Can we at least still have the bees?
posted by phearlez at 2:30 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Vote, godammit.

Vote.

Just... vote. (No, on second thoughts, get everyone you know to vote too. And everyone you don't.)

It doesn't matter if you're one of the five percent in the count, or one of the ninety-five. Vote.

(writes a man watching his country being fucked over by old white people. Who voted. Don't be that country, America.

You know what to do.)
posted by Devonian at 2:30 PM on September 29, 2016 [33 favorites]




2) they're trying to "inform" younger voters on Bill's past performances, to sour them on Hillary ... for not leaving Bill?

Eh, there's something there that someone with moral high ground could exploit, but Trump ain't that guy.

Like - in the twenty years since, we have come to broadly understand that it's not okay for a man at the top of an organization, even an unmarried man, even one who's not the leader of the free world - to have sex with an intern, because the massive power imbalance is not okay. And Bill Clinton has a history of having sex with or sexually harassing women who work under him, in a way that's massively not okay. And Hillary has a history of making these problems disappear by making the women out to be lying bimbos. And that's also not okay, not these days.

In a world with not this candidate, I'd appreciate seeing Bill Clinton admit that his relationships with women were inappropriate, and Hillary Clinton admit that her public and private responses to the same were also.

But that's not the world we live in right now.
posted by corb at 2:37 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


Tecate Beer Commercial that trolls Trump.

I've never been more proud to be a borracho.
Seriously, y'all—Tecate with lime is the bomb and it's cheap!
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:38 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


I happened to post a note to Facebook today about voting, and about choosing from between the two candidates that actually have a chance at winning. Nothing new that y'all aren't saying, but just thought it was interesting I happened to post this before this conversation just erupted here on MeFi.

(Yes it's public and that's a little scary for me, I usually keep my FB fairly locked down. Be kind.)
posted by misskaz at 2:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Why vote?

Why turnout matters, even in true-blue districts: Large margins of victory make politicians more responsive to progressive goals

"They find instead that Democratic politicians use the information of their vote margin to adjust their votes: a loss in vote share leads Democrats to vote in a more conservative way than they would have otherwise. They find, “a 2.5% Democratic loss results in an average 12.8 switches per incumbent.”
posted by chris24 at 2:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [69 favorites]




And Hillary has a history of making these problems disappear by making the women out to be lying bimbos. And that's also not okay, not these days.

Y'know, that was the one thing my Mom could come up with when I tried to engage her about why she's against Hillary a couple months ago. It's an accusation I've never really seen the backup for, though, so I didn't fully know how to respond. (Mostly I figured there was no way to talk Mom around that issue because it hits her in a very personal place, you can guess why.)
posted by dnash at 2:50 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


There's a reason the concerns of seniors get lawmakers' attention and the concerns of younger adults maybe not so much.

Seniors vote .
posted by Gelatin at 2:52 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


I can't help but get a lil' sick to my stomach that no matter what the outcome, more than half the nation will be furious. The new President has an enormous job of gathering the deplorables, or non-deplorables, under a collective wing.

At least, I hope the new President would take up that job...
posted by Conway at 2:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]



Trump just denied his compny paid 4 Cuba trip during embargo + discussed falsely linking 2 charity. Proof time. Names not in story removed.


I can see him just waiting all day with this ready and waiting. Come on Trump, do what you do best. Deny. Okay here it goes. Bamm!

And wow that was a lot of money for Cuba at the time.
posted by Jalliah at 2:56 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's an accusation I've never really seen the backup for, though, so I didn't fully know how to respond.

It's less important that the claim is strictly true or not. When I watched Monica Lewinsky come out and talk on TED, the conspicuous absence within her narrative was any solidarity with or by Hillary. The problems and experiences that Monica Lewinsky was openly talking about going through, would Hillary have recognized those as a result of exploitation and misogyny?

But the way to problematize this is to suppose even if Hillary did things that hurt the other women, that too could be understood as an imperfect reaction to the misogyny that permeates our culture. Therefore it's not an ironclad reason to not vote for Hillary.
posted by polymodus at 2:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Apologies if this was posted elsewhere. Scientific American Grades the Presidential Candidates on Science.

tl;dr: There's only one passing grade. It's a D.
posted by sparklemotion at 2:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


I am entirely unsurprised that Pepe was grabbed as a mascot for people who think "fuck you, I do what I want" is a reasonable political philosophy. He's shown in a "Got MILF" t-shirt, and later with one that says "Happiness is a Large Gutpile" over a picture that I'm very glad was a line drawing and not colored. (I don't know why Pepe instead of one of the other characters, though.)

Yes very damning? I uh
posted by atoxyl at 3:00 PM on September 29, 2016


you know California will go for Clinton because lots and lots of Californians will get up and go to the polls and actually make the effort to vote for her and other Democrats, not because of some immutable natural law, right

Here's some more food for thought: in my own lifetime, California was a lot more swingy, to the point that one could consider it to be more Republican leaning (after all, it did produce Nixon and Reagan!) So what the hell happened?

Well, back in the early 90s, the CAGOP started to see demographic shifts erode the position of strength they had in the 80s. So the Republican governor of the time, Pete Wilson, decided that pursuing nativist policies would re-energize the GOP electorate. And they did, for a bit.

They also made it clear to minorities in the state that they either hung together, or hung separately. By the time you get to 2000, the state was a lot less white, and CA minorities were a lot less inclined to vote for a party that treated them as the enemy. And thus, CA became part of the "blue wall".

Things change. Don't just assume politics is static, because it isn't.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [57 favorites]


When I watched Monica Lewinsky come out and talk on TED, the conspicuous absence within her narrative was any solidarity with or by Hillary.

Talk about holding women to excessively high standards.
posted by Lexica at 3:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [70 favorites]


Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The: Nevada has just turned blue in the 538 polls-only forecast.

My replies: 1) good to see it slightly blue, and 2) WTF Arizona - you were with us for a while back in August, and then y'all went back to Trump hard. In a matter of days, Hillary was projected to have Arizona at 58% to Donald having more than 70% chance to carry the state.

BUT... the latest State poll was Sep. 21-26 from Google Consumer Surveys (538 scored as "B") and Hillary is up 38% to Trump's 34% in a 4-way race, with Johnson with 11%. This is after a GCS survey (Sep. 7-13) had Donald up at 35% to Hillary's 34%, with Gary still getting 11%.

Before that, Ipsos' Sep. 2-15 poll had Donald up at 46% over Hillary's 39% in a 2-way race (no show of support for Gary).
posted by filthy light thief at 3:02 PM on September 29, 2016


> "Apologies if this was posted elsewhere. Scientific American Grades the Presidential Candidates on Science. tl;dr: There's only one passing grade. It's a D."

Clinton: 64
Trump: 7

That's a pretty damn stark difference.

(For those who care, Stein: 44 and Johnson: 30.)
posted by kyrademon at 3:02 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


Why does the unsubstantiated appearance of impropriety stick to Clinton so much more strongly than the evidence of impropriety sticks to Trump? Have people really fallen into a bottomless pit of truthiness?

For the same reason a 3-year-old can pull down his pants at the mall and everyone says it's cute, but when I do it, suddenly it's a "security issue."
posted by PlusDistance at 3:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


Clinton: 64

Impressively high given how much modern American politics filters against this sort of thing.

(I wouldn't expect to see any viable Republican candidate crack double digits on this)
posted by Artw at 3:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Why does the unsubstantiated appearance of impropriety stick to Clinton so much more strongly than the evidence of impropriety sticks to Trump? Have people really fallen into a bottomless pit of truthiness?

For the same reason a 3-year-old can pull down his pants at the mall and everyone says it's cute, but when I do it, suddenly it's a "security issue."


Neither of those things is unsubstantiated.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:10 PM on September 29, 2016


Clinton: 64
Trump: 7

That's a pretty damn stark difference.


The Trump answers are just astounding -- it honestly seems like it would have been better for his team to ignore the survey all together than to submit answers that get commentary like this (regarding Ocean Health):
Trump does not mention the ocean, fish, fisheries, coral reefs or coastlines in his answer. Grade: 0/5
posted by sparklemotion at 3:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


I roll to disbelieve kyrademon because frankly there is no way that Johnson and Stein are that good on science.

Stein is big on WOOOO!

and Johnson is a libertarian...
posted by vuron at 3:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


So the Republican governor of the time, Pete Wilson, decided that pursuing nativist policies would re-energize the GOP electorate. And they did, for a bit.

this involved some real tough talk against an imaginary straw Mexican and if I'm remembering this correctly Gov Wilson's name for him was

wait for it

"Pepe"
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


The article features the correction, “The star of Apprentass 4 was Angel Dark, not Alicia Machado.” While the correction is nonspecific, it appears that the Caller based the entire premise of their claim that Machado is a “porn star” on the incorrect belief that she was featured in that film. According to The Daily Beast, which reported on conservatives’ smear effort against Machado, “there does not appear to be any evidence suggesting the existence of professionally made pornography starring Machado.”

While the article no longer cites an example of her appearing in an adult film, it still baselessly claims that Machado made an “appearance in porn” and has a “background in pornography.”


The Machado fat-shaming scandal continues to go splendidly for Hillary. Not only is this one of those issues that cuts across normal political alignments to strike a literal majority of the public in a gut-punch way, but now amateurish Republicans are rolling out a slow counter-punch which will simply keep it dominating the news cycle for another day.

Lurid controversies about Machado's past are actually good for the Clinton campaign; they rivet everyone's attention. But bullshit lurid controversies are even better, with all of the outrage, none of the confusion, and more outrage piled on top. And it shows that Trump's supporters not only watch a lot of porn, but don't remember the details that well.
posted by msalt at 3:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


The great part about being a Libertarian is that you can simultaneously believe that a) man-made climate change is an existential threat to humanity and b) nothing should be done about that because it's the good and natural result of the free market deciding to extinguish the human race.
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [31 favorites]


Talk about holding women to excessively high standards.

I feel that your retort is problematic, because the rest of what I said there should have made it clear that what Lewinsky did for her talk, and in parallel the alleged behavior of Hillary are both understandable and empathizable. Maybe it would be relevant background if you knew that as a gay person, I cried while listening to Lewinsky's account, because it resonated deeply for me. Anyways, the connection I drew in response to dnash's comment was that their mom's concern (the concern about Hillary and "bimbos") is not necessarily a reason to not vote for Hillary. Your comment seems like a quick reaction based on thinking I said the opposite or expressed something very simplistic. That's not a dynamic that works for me here.
posted by polymodus at 3:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


In the early 1990s Trump's bankers put him on an allowance of $450,000 a month.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:16 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


And Hillary has a history of making these problems disappear by making the women out to be lying bimbos.

Citations really, really needed.

This is one of the things that makes me absolutely crazy. The only "evidence" I've ever seen for this is Juanita Brodderick's claim that Hillary shook her and said thank you, and yet it gets repeated all the time as if we all know what this refers to.

What the hell does it refer to? Because if no one can show me the receipts, I'm gonna have to go with "you've all swallowed more misogynist bullshit" as the actual explanation.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [93 favorites]


I'd appreciate seeing Bill Clinton admit that his relationships with women were inappropriate, and Hillary Clinton admit that her public and private responses to the same were also.

I'm no fan of Hillary Clinton, but how she deals with her private life is her own business and no one else's. Not mine, not yours. No one. Her private life has zero relevance to her pursuit of the presidency. Bill Clinton isn't running for office, either, and his private behavior has no bearing on what Hillary's responsibilities are as a potential future president. The constant focus on who these people sleep with is pretty much a threat to the United States, given how serious the job is of running the country and how useless and dangerous these time-wasting distractions have become.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:19 PM on September 29, 2016 [75 favorites]


Yeah, this complaint seems unreasonable, TBH.
posted by Artw at 3:21 PM on September 29, 2016


And she has remained a mostly private person in the intervening years.

While it might be thrilling and moving to hear Lewinsky endorse Clinton, I can't think of anyone in world I'd blame less for wanting to left alone.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [22 favorites]


The right wing allegations about Hillary Clinton's behavior towards Bill's accusers go beyond the Brodderick claim. But as far as I can tell they are all just that; unsubstantiated allegations from anonymous-type sources. Stuff like Hillary Clinton leading White House war-room meetings talking about how to discredit accusers. But unsourced and without proof.
posted by Justinian at 3:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump just denied his compny paid 4 Cuba trip during embargo + discussed falsely linking 2 charity. Proof time. Names not in story removed.

To be fair, that's just the invoice, which in matters TrumpOrg provides no guarantee that it was paid.

That may be the response from Barad-Trump. "We never paid them!"
posted by holgate at 3:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


Hillary Clinton initially believing her husband that these stories were fabricated and defending him, unforgivable.

Making public mocking statements about Ms Universe putting on a few pounds and inviting press to workout sessions rather than having private meetings and being supportive, perfectly reasonable.
posted by phearlez at 3:28 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


I would like to see some articles about those accusations - not saying this is a flippant way, I really do want to see them if anyone can link to some. When I try to google it, I can't tell the credible sources from the totally made-up nonsense ones.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:30 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


To be fair, that's just the invoice, which in matters TrumpOrg provides no guarantee that it was paid.

That may be the response from Barad-Trump. "We never paid them!"


"I did business in Cuba, but stiffed them too!" doesn't seem like the best defense in a couple different ways.
posted by chris24 at 3:30 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


So Trump was asked by NECN in NH who is a world leader he respects. "Well I think Merkel is a really great world leader," Trump said.

This election would be rejected by a Hollywood studio exec for being too fucking stupid of a script to be believable.
posted by Talez at 3:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [36 favorites]


I posted this is a much earlier thread (July) but I feel that it bears repeating:

If the possibility of safely blue states turning red doesn't scare you, how about this? Vote to deliver Trump a humiliating defeat. Vote to tell the nation (and the world) that the American electorate, for all its foibles, will ultimately punish racist and sexist rhetoric and actions. Think about what a huge margin of victory, even in New York, would tell the people who are most likely to be affected by Trump's proposed policies: that you've got their back. Can you imagine the rush of joy you will feel about the fundamental goodness of the American people if Trump's policies are repudiated firmly in November, with a crushing defeat?
posted by peacheater at 3:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [36 favorites]


Clinton was also asked who her fave world leader is today; her response is pretty awesome.
posted by melissasaurus at 3:35 PM on September 29, 2016 [29 favorites]


There was a WaPo article that cites some of the namecalling, but it's paywalled. I'll see if I can find a better source.
posted by corb at 3:37 PM on September 29, 2016


So Trump was asked by NECN in NH who is a world leader he respects. "Well I think Merkel is a really great world leader," Trump said.

"Well I saw that Chris Wallace clip on Twitter and I remember that's what the Weld guy answered and he sounded like less of a dope so I'll go with that. Merkel. He's a good dude."

24 hours later: "I never said Angela Merkel is a dude."

Within the same interview: "[Random unnecessary offensive comment about her appearance.]"
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:38 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]




Clinton was also asked who her fave world leader is today; her response is pretty awesome.

I'm really enjoying seeing Clinton enjoy herself on the campaign trail the last few days. She's loved into "person I'd like to have a beer with" territory, even though I don't drink and suspect we'd just spend the whole time gushing about our favorite bits from Hamilton.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


Trump Slams First Presidential Debate: "What a Rigged Deal"

what a baby
posted by defenestration at 3:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


WaPo paywall is easily defeated by opening the link in an incognito window in chrome, for those who don't know!
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm no fan of Hillary Clinton, but how she deals with her private life is her own business and no one else's. Not mine, not yours. No one. Her private life has zero relevance to her pursuit of the presidency. Bill Clinton isn't running for office, either, and his private behavior has no bearing on what Hillary's responsibilities are as a potential future president.

In fact, one of the few times I'd say who a public official sleeps with does matter is if they're trying to make a lot of political hay out of an opponent's sex life. It certainly wouldn't do to open your side to charges of hypocrisy and purely partisan motivation, now would it?

Oh, wait.
posted by Gelatin at 3:42 PM on September 29, 2016


Trump Slams First Presidential Debate: "What a Rigged Deal"

Amending an earlier comment I made...

"I didn't lose I won and besides my microphone wasn't working and besides the moderator was biased and besides she only won because she cheated and look at these online polls that say I won and also the whole thing was rigged."
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:43 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


I kinda want Clinton to turn to the moderator of the next debate and say "Be careful, if Trump doesn't do well, he may accusing you of rigging this whole thing."

I know it probably wouldn't be a good idea, but I still kinda want it to happen.
posted by defenestration at 3:44 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


WaPo paywall is easily defeated by opening the link in an incognito window in chrome, for those who don't know!

Also for those who don't know, the WaPo paywall is easily defeated with 99 cents then cancelling after the election. Farenthold's worth 99c to me on his own.
posted by Francis at 3:45 PM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


Maybe this was already posted but I didn't see it. 2 national post-debate polls:

"NBC News/SurveyMonkey found 52 percent of respondents thought Clinton won to Donald Trump’s 21 percent. Another from Reuters/Ipsos found that 56 percent of respondents thought Clinton won to Trump’s 26 percent.
posted by msalt at 3:47 PM on September 29, 2016


Trump Slams First Presidential Debate: "What a Rigged Deal" and NAFTA is "Worst trade deal ever"

Worst trade deal ever? I got the Treaty of Nanking (concession of Treaty Ports to the UK for the opium trade) looking a little miffed at being outshone by piddly NAFTA.
posted by tclark at 3:47 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump Slams First Presidential Debate: "What a Rigged Deal"

I know he didn't know what a dog was before, but I now suspect he has no earthly idea what a "deal" is either. A Presidential debate is not the same as reaching an agreement on a ground lease for a hotel. Only one of those things can reasonably be categorized as a "deal."
posted by zachlipton at 3:47 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


May be already mentioned, but PBS put Frontline's The Choice 2016 on YouTube. I walked away with a much more positive view of Hillary.
posted by Monochrome at 3:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [18 favorites]


Credit where it's due:

Chuck to Trump surrogate re: online polls: "Jason, you've been doing this a while, you know those are bogus!"

(I'm not forgiving Todd for being such a waste this election, but I did like this moment.)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


TPM: Top Trump Aide Doesn't Deny Report Trump Company Spent Money In Cuba (VIDEO)

"In an appearance on "The View" Thursday morning, Donald Trump's campaign manager insisted that a report alleging one of his companies broke the Cuban trade embargo in 1998 does not mean that the candidate had been “treasonous.”

But she did say “they paid money, as I understand from the story, they paid money in 1998," referring to the story published by Newsweek hours earlier.

“The question is: ‘Did he spend money?’ He’s very critical of Cuba, he’s very critical of Castro, and he’s been critical,” Kellyanne Conway said. “He gave a speech the very next year to the Cuban-American National foundation of Miami critical of those who want to do business with Castro, and he’s talked about the Cuban Embargo even on this [campaign] trail.”

“But again, we’re talking about, ‘Did his hotel invest money in 1998 in Cuba?’ No,” she continued."

So basically, 'hey, he broke the law a little trying to determine if he wanted to break it a lot. But he didn't, so all cool, right?'
posted by chris24 at 3:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mod note: Trump official says he doesn’t talk about Bill Clinton’s affairs, changes his mind 10 seconds later:
“... don’t think you’ve ever heard me talk about Bill Clinton’s peccadilloes from the 1990s. I don’t think they’re relevant right now.”

Exactly 10 seconds later, things changed.

“What I do think is relevant — and this is key — is that wherever the Clinton ship has sailed, it leaves behind it a wake of scandal. Whether it’s Bill Clinton and some of his indiscretions in the 1990s,” Cortes said, at which point Snow cut him off to interject, “Oh, but you just brought it up just then!”
"I said his peccadilloes weren't relevant. I'm talking about his indiscretions." fake
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 3:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Hey, peccadilloes is one of my favorite words because of this scene. Don't ruin it, Trump.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:00 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I kinda want Clinton to turn to the moderator of the next debate and say "Be careful, if Trump doesn't do well, he may accusing you of rigging this whole thing."

I want:

1) Clinton to open the next debate with "Donald, would you like to trade mics before we start?"

2) To hear Kaine say, some point in the VP debate, "Frankly, as a friend of mine says, that's malarky!"

3) Steven Tyler to make an anti-Trump video called "Dude (Acts Like A Baby)."
posted by octobersurprise at 4:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [35 favorites]


50/50 odds Trump thinks (Bill) Clinton's 90s peccadilloes are investments in pygmy armadillo ranch, like chinchillas, that didn't work out.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 4:03 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


The other general problem here is that one of "Bill's women" wasn't just an affair that's nobody else's business, it's a credible rape allegation.

Yeah, I'm not sure that's a good place for them to be going either.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 4:03 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Will These Anti-Trump Ads Be the Killer Spots of the 2016 Campaign?

"The Clinton campaign has released sharp ads attacking Donald Trump for his erratic temperament, his long history of misogynistic remarks, and his lack of foreign policy experience. But one of the most eviscerating ad efforts of the fall (so far) has come from a progressive outfit in Ohio, which has launched a series of spots slamming the GOP presidential nominee for having repeatedly stiffed contractors."

You can see the three ads in the article.
posted by chris24 at 4:04 PM on September 29, 2016 [19 favorites]


Buttercup: And to think, all that time it was your microphone that was functional.

(Wo)Man in Black: They were both functional. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to saying stupid things into a microphone.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 4:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [75 favorites]


filthy light thief: WTF Arizona - you were with us for a while back in August, and then y'all went back to Trump hard.

I wonder whether the Arizona Republic's endorsement will have any effects on polling? I know they've received a lot of death threats, but that doesn't mean that the needle hasn't moved in the other direction as well, just with less immediately visible (and horrible) consequences.

Also, I would swoon if Kaine used the word "malarkey." Putting that on my VP debate bingo card!
posted by Superplin at 4:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton was also asked who her fave world leader is today; her response is pretty awesome.

I am so torn. On the one hand, professional women should never be told to smile more because no one tells professional men to smile more. It's also reasonably clear that she's gotten some facial expression coaching because the patriarchy says she isn't "likable" enough, and she is the kind of lady who will learn to smile pretty if that's what it takes because she is the kind of lady who will do what it takes.

But dammit. She has a great smile and i'ts great to see it. It seriously is one of the only things that made Monday's debate watchable for me, and I could watch the shimmy gif every hour of every day.
posted by sparklemotion at 4:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [22 favorites]


After seeing the Trump campaign hang its hat on those brigaded online "polls" after the first debate I wonder if the Clinton campaign is going to organize a counter-brigade for the next couple of debates? Theoretically is it legal to use bots to vote?
posted by Justinian at 4:11 PM on September 29, 2016


Trek Against Trump
Star Trek has always offered a positive vision of the future, a vision of hope and optimism, and most importantly, a vision of inclusion, where people of all races are accorded equal respect and dignity, where individual beliefs and lifestyles are respected so long as they pose no threat to others. We cannot turn our backs on what is happening in the upcoming election. Never has there been a presidential candidate who stands in such complete opposition to the ideals of the Star Trek universe as Donald Trump....

We have heard people say they will vote Green or Libertarian or not at all because the two major candidates are equally flawed. That is both illogical and inaccurate...."
Signed by (so far) 98 actors, writers, directors, etc., associated with every incarnation of Star Trek (also including family members of deceased Trek luminaries).
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [71 favorites]


WaPo paywall is easily defeated by opening the link in an incognito window in chrome, for those who don't know!

In mobile Safari, click the double rectangles top right, then click Private (don't worry if it looks like the other tabs disappeared.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


David Fahrenthold ‏@Fahrenthold
Got a little more news about @realDonaldTrump's Foundation, coming later tonight....
SQUEEEEEE!
posted by Talez at 4:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


Oh and when I get board of the shimmy gif. There is the Shimmy Song. Which might just make this crapsack of an election season worthwhile.
posted by sparklemotion at 4:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


After seeing the Trump campaign hang its hat on those brigaded online "polls" after the first debate I wonder if the Clinton campaign is going to organize a counter-brigade for the next couple of debates? Theoretically is it legal to use bots to vote?

They won't for the second. Donald Trump is just the sort of twit who believes brigaded polls when they tell him what he wants to know. And if he thinks he won he won't change his gameplan.
posted by Francis at 4:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


If Donald is such a master negotiator and Hillary is so lousy why was he outplayed in negotiating the terms of a Presidential debate with Hillary?
posted by humanfont at 4:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Theoretically is it legal to use bots to vote?

There's an argument to be made that using any site in a manner not condoned is actually illegal, but in practice nobody cares about online polls.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:17 PM on September 29, 2016


I am late to this, but: Not voting because you believe your vote 'makes no difference' makes you a damn PARASITE (and, by the way, pretty despicable). Sometimes one is judged by the effects of one's actions; sometimes by the actions themselves. So--effects, small. actions--parasite.

I live in a Clinton-safe state in a 3/4 Republican town. I will vote for Clinton, and Governor Cody (my state senator). They will both win with or without me. I will not vote for any local Democrats because none are running because, unlike PARASITES, plenty of my Republican neighbors will come out vote for Republicans (even sure-loser-here Trump), so local Dems do not bother with the town elections.

By the way, here in the suburbs, this election has been notable for the absence of lawn signs. I have decided to put up no lawn sign until someone on my (pretty long) street puts up a Trump/Pence. But so far, I have not seen a single lawn sign in my town (and only one Trump/Pence in a neighboring town). Is this what is happening generally?
posted by hexatron at 4:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]




After seeing the Trump campaign hang its hat on those brigaded online "polls" after the first debate I wonder if the Clinton campaign is going to organize a counter-brigade for the next couple of debates?

No, because the Clinton campaign knows it wouldn't help. Any online poll showing Clinton as winning the debate will be discredited by the Trump campaign as brigaded by Clinton supporters, while any online poll showing Trump winning will be touted as an accurate assessment of the mood of the electorate.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


After seeing the Trump campaign hang its hat on those brigaded online "polls" after the first debate I wonder if the Clinton campaign is going to organize a counter-brigade for the next couple of debates?

"Both sides!"
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:29 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


When you clean someone's clock so obviously you don't need to traffic in false support.
posted by Talez at 4:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]




Chuck Todd is kind of like the weather in Texas:
You might be happy with it now, but wait five minutes.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


BuzzFeed: Newt Gingrich: Trump Is “A Gentleman” For Not Mentioning Bill Clinton’s Infidelity
“He thought about it, and I’m sure he said to himself, ‘a president of the United States shouldn’t attack somebody personally when their daughter is sitting in the audience,’” Gingrich said. “And he bit his tongue, and he was a gentleman, and I thought in many ways that was the most important moment of the whole evening. He proved that he had the discipline to remain as a decent guy even when she was disgusting.”

Gingrich added that he thought Clinton looked “mean and miserable,” while Trump shined in the exchange.

“And I think it was probably a great disappointment to her staff, that this taunt that they were sure was gonna set him off, so that they would end the debate with him doing something foolish. Instead he came off looking like a gentleman and she came off looking pretty mean and miserable.”
So Trump gets gets everyone to talk about it but also gets credit for not talking about it. OK makes sense in a world where Trump looked like a gentleman and Clinton looked mean and miserable-- that is to say OPPOSITE WORLD.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


The Time a Trump Aide Sued a Trump Adviser Over an Anti-Hillary Group Called...

Citizens Unanimous: No Trump
posted by 0xFCAF at 4:34 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Oh hey USA Today: "The Editorial Board has never taken sides in the presidential race. We're doing it now."

Damn! If I were traveling, I'd be choking on my Holiday Inn continental breakfast right about now.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:35 PM on September 29, 2016 [59 favorites]


What's fascinating about that USA Today editorial is that it's moral isn't "vote Clinton" but "don't vote Trump - vote anyone else, just don't vote Trump."
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:36 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Newt Gingrich: Trump Is 'A Gentleman' for Not Mentioning Bill Clinton’s Infidelity

"Gentleman" Donald Trump cheated on his first wife with his second wife, then cheated on his second wife with his third wife.

Newt Gingrich cheated on his first wife with his second wife, then cheated on his second wife with his third wife.

Rudy Giuliani cheated on his first wife with his second wife, then cheated on his second wife with his third wife.

Is "Gentleman" Don going to mention that Clinton's an amateur compared to them?
posted by kirkaracha at 4:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [26 favorites]


What's fascinating about that USA Today editorial is that it's moral isn't "vote Clinton" but "don't vote Trump - vote anyone else, just don't vote Trump."

From the article: "Nor does this editorial represent unqualified support for Hillary Clinton, who has her own flaws (though hers are far less likely to threaten national security or lead to a constitutional crisis). The Editorial Board does not have a consensus for a Clinton endorsement." (emphasis mine)

Which reads to me like there was one, 12 Angry Men style holdout in the room.
posted by saturday_morning at 4:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [19 favorites]


@IsaacDovere: Gingrich joins Giuliani & Trump in bringing up Bill Clinton's affairs. The three have 9 marriages between them:

And lest we forget Gingrich was also talking about Miss Universe's weight. Gingrich-- ya know the portly guy who divorced his wife when she had cancer so he could marry his mistress?

And speaking of mistresses...
I know that I should probably let this go but Hillary is the wronged party here-- not the women who chose to have sex with her husband. I don't care how Hillary reacted, these women chose to have sex with Bill. They can't turn around and pretend that Hillary was the bad person in that story.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [19 favorites]


Gingrich added that he thought Clinton looked “mean and miserable,”

Miserable? Pull the other one. She was enjoying herself.
posted by Gelatin at 4:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


Kurt Eichenwald clearly has a dossier of Trump material going back decades that he's decided to polish into stories.

Speculation here: there's an even bigger story he's going to release in October, and the names and ventures mentioned in these two pieces -- foreign entanglements past and present -- are little jabs at Trump imply what might be round the corner. Post-bankruptcy TrumpOrg is one that relies upon partners and NDAs and not all of them are leakproof, especially if they've been stiffed somewhere along the line.

Which reads to me like there was one, 12 Angry Men style holdout in the room.

Except they weren't angry, just excessively chilled out and hoarding all the snacks.
posted by holgate at 4:45 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Welp...

Millennials trust Trump more than Clinton on only one issue: Regulating Wall Street

"Clinton trails Trump on just one measure: Who do voters younger than 35 trust more to handle "government regulation of Wall Street and banks?" When that question is put to them, 44 percent of young voters trust Clinton; 51 percent trust Trump.

When you look at the other policy preferences of young voters, the answer makes no sense. On the issues where Clinton has run furthest to the left, like climate change, young voters support her by up to 60 points. And Donald Trump's position on regulating Wall Street is, to say the least, laissez-faire. He has pledged to dismantle the post-recession Dodd-Frank financial regulation; doing so would also take out the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Moreover, he has gone along with a widely shared Republican proposal for a moratorium on any regulations until the economy hit a certain (high) growth rate.

Clinton favors none of this."
posted by chris24 at 4:46 PM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


Newt Gingrich: Trump Is “A Gentleman” For Not Mentioning Bill Clinton’s Infidelity

This is why Gingrich is so infuriating. He's not stupid, he's purposely and cunningly doing evil. I never even believe that he believes the things he says. Trump is just stupid.
posted by bongo_x at 4:46 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Unlike Trump, Bill Clinton's mistress was made right here in America by Americans.
posted by humanfont at 4:47 PM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


Not that this will change the mind of any Trump supporters, who seem to have abandoned basic logic, but: part of the appeal of Trump is supposedly that he says what he thinks, and doesn't kowtow to excessive "political correctness."

His alleged reason for not bringing up Bill's infidelities during the first debate? He didn't want to offend one 36-year-old woman.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


This is why Gingrich is so infuriating. He's not stupid

If he's not stupid, why's he tying himself to a lead balloon?
posted by jackbishop at 4:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


It's pretty clear that Trump has no real desire to win. He didn't bother to prep for the debate, he fired his entire policy staff, he still won't spend any of his own fortune. A near miss is better for his ego than winning and having to deal with the consequences. Of course, that doesn't mean he won't win -- there's plenty of time for last minute game changers.
posted by miyabo at 4:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


USA Today needs to studiously avoid offending people. More than half their circulation is in hotels. If enough people at the Midwestern-Regional Spark Plug Sales Convention start throwing their copies at the hotel manager ranting about how they want a "fair and balanced" newspaper, the hotel might just conclude that newspapers are more trouble than they're worth. They're already going to get enough flack for a "anybody but Trump" endorsement.
posted by zachlipton at 4:50 PM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


Only took 72 hours to read through the 2 posts. Finally got up to now.
This had been an awesome pair of threads.
Thank you all so much for watching for me.

Now, has anything else been on MeFi in the last 3 days?
posted by MtDewd at 4:50 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trek Against Trump

I understand the lack of Shatner, because he sucks, but where the hell is Patrick Stewart?
posted by palindromic at 4:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I understand the lack of Shatner, because he sucks, but where the hell is Patrick Stewart?

My suspicion - not US citizens?
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 4:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Stewart is an Englishman so maybe he feels it's inappropriate to butt in. I don't think it should matter much but who knows.
posted by dis_integration at 4:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


And Shatner is Canadian but I doubt he feels it's inappropriate to butt in.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:59 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


And Marina Sirtis is a naturalized US citizen, I did not know that.
posted by peeedro at 5:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Now, has anything else been on MeFi in the last 3 days?

They've stopped posting anything else, right?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:02 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


In an interview tonight with NH media, Trump doubles/triples down that he's very proud that he forced the first black president to show his birth certificate. (full transcript of question and answer attached to tweet.)

@sopandeb: "!!! Trump tells @steinhauserNH1 that he is proud of his birtherism!: "I tried and I was able to do it so I’m very proud of that."
posted by chris24 at 5:04 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Stewart's feelings on the election.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


The deluge of all things not election comes on the 9th
posted by cmfletcher at 5:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think the whole millenial protest vote thing is a bit hand wringy, as they're not nearly as problematic as the older folk, but I do have incredibly sad visions of them in the future, decades after they understand the mathematics/mechanics of the US voting system. Their grandkids will ask them what it was like to vote for the first woman president and they will be filled with a profound regret. I say this as someone who voted for a third party in my youth, but thanks to the electoral college, didn't have to actually regret it.
posted by snofoam at 5:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


So it doesn't matter whom I vote for.

So I live in New York, whose presidential votes are about as sure and certain as they come. And this year, Chuck Schumer is going to beat Wendy Long like a red-headed stepchild, and Brian Higgins is going to beat the crap out of... whoever his opponent is, I don't remember. And Mike Ranzenhofer and Ray Walter are going to beat whoever the fuck the nobodies I vote for are. So my vote doesn't matter in that sense. ...but it'll still be fun to cast. Especially the one for president. Even when it will make not the slightest difference. You know why? Because fuck him. That's why.

So biscotti and I are going to walk down the street and we are going to vote So. Fucking. Hard. that the Harlem Road Community Center is going to want a cigarette when we are through.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [58 favorites]


2600 Magazine offers $10K for Trump's tax return payable in "dollars, bitcoin... or rubles"
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 5:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [37 favorites]


I have relatives in NY and CA that are voting for Trump - big "catholic" families on both sides, so there's a lot of them. If you need yet another reason to vote for Clinton in one of these blue states, do it to cancel out their votes.
posted by melissasaurus at 5:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


I will be voting for Hillary in spite of Kai Winn's endorsement.
posted by ckape at 5:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [31 favorites]


And Mike Ranzenhofer and Ray Walter are going to beat whoever the fuck the nobodies I vote for are. So my vote doesn't matter in that sense. ...

Downticket, downticket, downticket!
posted by eclectist at 5:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


One other thing on the "it doesn't matter whom I vote for" front. In California, we've got 17 statewide propositions on the ballot, plus whatever you've got in your local area. Some of them help fund schools, some lock in tax rates, some address criminal justice reform, one legalizes marijuana, and one repeals the death penalty (while another tries to make it easier for the state to kill people more quickly). This stuff matters a whole lot too, in some ways more than the Presidency, and showing up to vote on these measures is just as important.
posted by zachlipton at 5:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [37 favorites]


2600 Magazine offers $10K for Trump's tax return

Mentioned last thread, but the fact that Trump's "400 lb. Hacker" quip motivated them is amusing.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:17 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


Vote to stop this bullshit.

In the Era of Trump, Anti-Latino Hate Crimes Jumped 69% in L.A.
posted by chris24 at 5:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [36 favorites]


Their grandkids will ask them what it was like to vote for the first woman president and they will be filled with a profound regret.

I've said something like this before, but there are going to be a lot of lies and regrets about voting in this election. Don't be one of those people.
posted by bongo_x at 5:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


miyabo: It's pretty clear that Trump has no real desire to win. He didn't bother to prep for the debate, he fired his entire policy staff, he still won't spend any of his own fortune. A near miss is better for his ego than winning and having to deal with the consequences.

I disagree. I think not only does he want to win, he needs to win. He needs to win because he's a narcissist whose ego won't be able to accept that he was beaten, very publicly, and by a woman. This is why he's already begun rationalizing a potential loss-- my mic was sabotaged, the polls are rigged, the election was stolen, etc.

Also, he needs to win from a practical standpoint because all signs point to him being massively in debt-- likely owing hundreds of millions to Deutsche Bank. He did put in his own money (after much feet dragging, he officially forgave the millions he loaned the campaign) but Mark Cuban likely has it right- he's probably a fake billionaire. When they did his Comedy Central Roast, the joke writers get a list of everything that's off limits. He was fine with everything-- making fun of Melania, his family, and so on-- the only thing he red lined was jokes making it seem like he's not as rich as he claims. I made this point in the last thread, but when Sec. Clinton made note of him maybe being in debt to banks, he grimaced involuntarily, the same kind of grimace boxers make when a punch lands but they're trying to play it off. So from a financial standpoint he needs to win. His brand is in shambles and it's unlikely more buildings where they pay him for naming rights will be coming. That's why he's getting increasingly desperate.

As to wanting to do the job? God no. This is a man who's had everything handed to him on a silver platter all his life (a "small" million dollar loan!?) yet he still finds a way to whine that the system is rigged against him. Debate prep? Why would he bother? The people have been eating out of his hand at his rallies for months. And when he fails, he just has people around him tell him all the online polls loved him. So I don't think he want to do the job, but I do think he wants to win.
posted by bluecore at 5:20 PM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]




I've said something like this before, but there are going to be a lot of lies and regrets about voting in this election. Don't be one of those people.

On the plus side, a lot of folks will realize in time to vote for Hillary's second term, insha'Allah.
posted by snofoam at 5:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Downticket, downticket, downticket!

I hear ya, but I don't think there is anything downticket from the state assembly for me this year. Pretty sure Amherst town and Amherst Central Schools don't have anything up, anyway.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:26 PM on September 29, 2016


Can I just say that from an electoral-math perspective the New York fusion system is pretty great? It's a very small reform of the voting process, but it allows voters to identify the strength of whatever bloc agrees with them, without forcing voters to participate in the sham option of voting for unviable candidates.

Like, basically it makes visible the fact that the major parties are, internally, loose coalitions of competing interests, and also helps groups with common interests build organizations separate from the major party — which can give them meaningful leverage over the party's decisions. It's neat.

Most of the math-wonky analysis of voting systems — which I like a lot! I'm convinced that approval voting is the way to go, unless someone figures out how to really sell Condorcet's method to a math-averse culture — uh, anyway, most of the math-wonky analysis of voting systems fails to account for how elections are a repeated game, and that although fusion voting doesn't necessarily make a difference in one particular election, the presence of fusion voting can make a difference over time as organizations form to take advantage of it.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


The new Farenthold scoop is out:

Trump Foundation lacks the certification required for charities that solicit money

"Donald Trump’s charitable foundation — which has been sustained for years by donors outside the Trump family — has never obtained the certification that New York requires before charities can solicit money from the public, according to the state attorney general’s office.

Under the laws in New York, where the Donald J. Trump Foundation is based, any charity that solicits more than $25,000 per year from the public must obtain a special kind of registration beforehand. Charities as large as Trump’s must also submit to a rigorous annual audit that asks — among other things — whether the charity spent any money for the personal benefit of its officers."
posted by chris24 at 5:37 PM on September 29, 2016 [111 favorites]


We need fewer scoops and more "don't fucking vote for this person" editorials.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


(I've run out of Favs again. Hey, since he doesn't visit anymore, can I have Scott Adam's Favs to redistribute? I promise to use them wisely, Fav'ing comments he'd surely disapprove of.)
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 5:45 PM on September 29, 2016 [23 favorites]


No, we need both. These ongoing "scoops" are revealing Trump as a fraud and a con man; a man who has no credibility and should not be listened to; that there is nothing here worth venerating. The ongoing undermining of his image, paired with his behaviour and the hate filled spew he puts forth, are what gives the fertile ground for "don't fucking vote for this person" editorials.
posted by nubs at 5:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [30 favorites]


And Shatner is Canadian but I doubt he feels it's inappropriate to butt in.

Shatner has dual citizenship, so that's not it.

Really, the surprise omission for me - thus far - isn't Shatner but Nichelle Nichols. There are plenty of other notable liberal Trek vets, since most Trek vets are liberal (Dwight Schultz is the major exception), but I would expect Nichols to sign on to this. I hope it was just a comms snafu and nothing's wrong.
posted by mightygodking at 5:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


So, back in the day when audio was primitive, there was a genre of comedy where people would pretend to be interviewers and ask questions that were "answered" by song fragments (the Beatles got this a lot) It's the kind of thing that doesn't hold up. At all.

Later (late seventies/eighties) it became a thing to send out records of a celebrity's half of an interview, with the assumption that the local talent would play straight man for the other half on air. That devolved quickly. But is still funny.

Fast forwarding to today, I give you Seth Meyers.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


That's some pretty juicy stuff about The Trump Foundation.
If New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman (D) finds that Trump’s foundation raised money in violation of the law, he could order the charity to stop raising money immediately. With a court’s permission, Schneiderman could also force Trump to return money his foundation has already raised.
That could be interesting. I wonder if the court could force him to pay back money that has already been spent? According to Farenthold he received more than $25,000 a year for the last 10 years. In some cases he has received millions. It would be justice if he had to give back all the money donated to him because then it would mean that he ended up paying for all that stuff with his own money.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [25 favorites]


Trump Ally: Actually, Hillary Clinton Body-Shamed Girls In Anti-Trump Ad:
"The worst of all I find is those little girls in Mrs. Clinton's television ad, the nameless little girls standing in the mirror looking extremely uncomfortable, distressed about their own body types," McCaughey said. "Here's why that's distressing. Because I've sat at the bedside of a child nearing death from anorexia and there are families all over this country who have gone through this for years."
posted by kirkaracha at 5:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Farenthold is a golden god!
posted by sallybrown at 5:56 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


WaPo: Trump stirs old Clinton sex scandals, to the dismay of some allies
Donald Trump and his allies are dredging up the past marital infidelities of Hillary Clinton’s husband — a move of questionable benefit that is bewildering even some of his staunchest supporters.

The Republican nominee and his surrogates, under pressure to boost his standing with female voters and respond to Clinton’s accusations that he is a misogynist, are turning to an attack that has been tried repeatedly by the Clintons’ foes.[...]

Trump ally Newt Gingrich, who as House speaker led the charge to impeach Bill Clinton on perjury and obstruction charges, expressed dismay over the Trump campaign’s effort to revive the controversy.

“It’s totally the wrong direction to go,” Gingrich said. “He should not let them bait him into a swamp where they can revel in the mud.”
Look at Gingrich taking the high road! He is so noble, such a gentleman.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:59 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


why hasnt beyonce endorsed anyone, this is so stressful
posted by poffin boffin at 6:00 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]




What I personally kind of hate about them is not the outright lies but tactical attacks where they know rebuttal is both possible and trivial but 1. is too long for the fast paced interview (or debate) format and 2. involves too many points to connect for many people and 3. even if attempted would be enough of a distraction and deflection from the current question. This was especially noticeable in the debate and in the Kelly Anne on "The View". It's more cynical than straight lies.

I think the campaign needs an Elevator Defence for each of them, like an elevator pitch, but a defence from a drive-by attack, like, a 5 word version, a 10 word version, a 15 word version, and have them ready. Perhaps not always possible, but, in this campaign, very needed.
posted by rainy at 6:03 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Really, the surprise omission for me - thus far - isn't Shatner but Nichelle Nichols.

It appears it's been up for less than two days, and it's not clear how far in advance of going public they started contacting people, so it's entirely possible she (and any other prominent Trek actors who haven't signed on) simply hasn't seen it/responded yet. I wouldn't read too much into the absence of any notables from that list, if they haven't otherwise made a public statement on the election.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


What I personally kind of hate about them

Who is "them?"
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:05 PM on September 29, 2016


Kelly Anne and Trump.
posted by rainy at 6:07 PM on September 29, 2016


Trump Ally: Actually, Hillary Clinton Body-Shamed Girls In Anti-Trump Ad

Wow the rest of that interview is just as bad.
"No. And I think it's amazing that Mrs. Clinton —look, she had to go back 20 years to find something that he is alleged to have said. Alleged in public—" McCaughey said.

"He's on tape saying—" Harlow interrupted.

"I saw the tape," McCaughey interjected.

"He said on Fox News this week 'She gained a massive amount of weight,'" Harlow pointed out.

"That's right, she did and she was a beauty queen under contract with him," McCaughey said.

"And Alicia Machado said it drove her to be anorexic and bulimic. Do you think he has no culpability or responsibility?" Harlow asked.

"I don't," McCaughey said. "I think Hollywood and most of the literature, by the way, parents all across the country who like me have sought out the advice of doctors and read hundreds of articles about anorexia and bulimia have found Hollywood, the people who support Mrs. Clinton, are far more to blame."
"He didn't say that thing 20 years ago.Ok he did say it but she did get fat. Besides. Hillary is to blame."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Apprentass 4? Are we being trolled by reality?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Nah, Newt has just realized that you shouldn't throw this mud when you are already literally caked in it yourself. If Trump goes after Bill, Hillary gets to point out that Trump and Rudy and Newt and Roger all are unrepentant adulterers themselves, and that she and her husband have been able to work through it because of the importance of marriage and thecommitent they have.

It's such a fucking obvious trap, I can't believe the clown car is steering into it.
posted by nubs at 6:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]


I'm going to go against the conventional wisdom and say that Trump won't bring up Bill's infidelities in the future debates. They are surely aware Clinton has some supremely confident answer prepared for that line of attack, and don't want to give her the opportunity to deliver it. But by doing this "mentioning that we're not mentioning it" thing outside of the debates, it keeps it in the public's mind while not really giving Clinton a good opening to respond.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha oh wait i forgot for a moment this is trump we're talking about i was thinking of a competently run campaign and a candidate who is capable of self-control
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


“Donald pulled me aside at his wedding,” Stern said in comments that had not resurfaced until now. “He said, you know I am getting remarried, but Howard, vagina is expensive. I will never forget those words. The guy is right. Those were the exact words!”
posted by kirkaracha at 6:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]






Nah, Newt has just realized that you shouldn't throw this mud

Yeah I should have made it clearer that I was being sarcastic. He was already on record for saying Trump Is “A Gentleman” For Not Mentioning Bill Clinton’s Infidelity
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ah, sorry. I think 2016 has done permanent damage to my sarcasm, irony, and parody detectors.
posted by nubs at 6:16 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


And now for something a bit less juicy...

NYTimes: Ohio, Long a Bellwether, Is Fading on the Electoral Map
ATHENS, Ohio — After decades as one of America’s most reliable political bellwethers, an inevitable presidential battleground that closely mirrored the mood and makeup of the country, Ohio is suddenly fading in importance this year.

Hillary Clinton has not been to the state since Labor Day, and her aides said Thursday that she would not be back until next week, after a monthlong absence, effectively acknowledging how difficult they think it will be to defeat Donald J. Trump here. Ohio has not fallen into step with the demographic changes transforming the United States, growing older, whiter and less educated than the nation at large.

And the two parties have made strikingly different wagers about how to win the White House in this election: Mr. Trump, the Republican nominee, is relying on a demographic coalition that, while well tailored for Ohio even in the state’s Democratic strongholds, leaves him vulnerable in the more diverse parts of the country where Mrs. Clinton is spending most of her time.

It is a jarring change for political veterans here, who relish being at the center of the country’s presidential races: Because of newer battleground states, Mrs. Clinton can amass the 270 electoral votes required to win even if she loses Ohio
Can I just say (as an old white person) it's about time the "Heartland" got a little less attention. They are not the future of America, they are barely the present of America. I am sick and tired of stories about good Christian (white) folk and why they need to vote for Trump even thought they aren't racists (but they don't actually know any Black or Hispanic people.)
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [75 favorites]


How accurate is Fortune's 3.7B estimate? Like, are they often wrong by much?

He did put in his own money (after much feet dragging, he officially forgave the millions he loaned the campaign) but Mark Cuban likely has it right- he's probably a fake billionaire. When they did his Comedy Central Roast, the joke writers get a list of everything that's off limits. He was fine with everything-- making fun of Melania, his family, and so on-- the only thing he red lined was jokes making it seem like he's not as rich as he claims.


Certainly possible, but a plausible explanation is that all his self-worth hinges on the size of the fortune, so the wife can be changed, etc, but if the fortune itself is doubted, everything else crumbles away. Another thing is that a lot of his deals and assets rely on perception of his net worth - e.g. licensing deals, ability to stiff contractors, media projects. He's doing media appearances to increase fame in order to help this kind of sources of income, so to jeopardize them would make little sense. Right?
posted by rainy at 6:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's ironic and funny but I predict the story that his fortune fell $800m, even though it doesn't mean much (mostly seems to be about softening of NYC real estate), will likely hurt him among his hardcore supporters more than literally EVERYTHING ELSE COMBINED. [EDIT: no seriously I thought about this a bit more and this would just be soooooooooo funny. Can you see a 5 point drop just on this one story?]
posted by rainy at 6:34 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wha Wha Sad Trombone

Congress suddenly has buyer's remorse for overriding Obama's veto
Just one day after these lawmakers led the first override of a veto during Obama's presidency they publicly called for making changes to the law. But even as they admitted they agreed with some of the White House's concerns, GOP leaders quickly blamed the President for "dropping the ball" for failing to engage with Congress on the legislation before it passed. [...]

Echoing concerns raised by the White House that the measure could open the US to similar lawsuits from people in other countries, House Speaker Paul Ryan said the law needs to be changed to ensure that US troops are protected.

"I'd like to think there is a way we can fix it so that our service members do not have legal problems overseas while still protecting the rights of the 9/11 victims," Ryan said at his weekly news conference.

The speaker voiced his own reservations about the bill earlier this year, saying people needed to look at the unintended consequences. But he explained that he ultimately decided to allow a House vote on it because "you want to make sure that the 9/11 victims and their families get their day in court."
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell also thought it might be a good idea to "fix" the law they just passed. Gee maybe a good time to "fix" the law was before they passed it, or failing that, when it was vetoed by the President. Then they could have re-written the law before it did any damage. But by golly they sure couldn't let Obama have the last word. So now it is his fault they did this thing. He should have....engaged...with them some more! Invited them into the Oval Office, offered them some coffee. Had some salted peanuts to nibble on, maybe. Told them all how smart they were and what a swell job they were doing.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:36 PM on September 29, 2016 [82 favorites]


Paul Ryan, literally: "I'd like to think there is a way we can fix is so that we can have a piece of cake while still protecting our rights to eat it at the same time. I'm cautiously optimistic that it's doable. Thank you for your time. Ryan out."
posted by rainy at 6:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Psssst, SecretLofG: I think you missed the veto thread up there.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Politico: Trump ignores advice and launches Bill Clinton attack
For three days since Clinton’s dominant debate performance, Trump and his team have been flailing wildly to change the meta-narrative coming out of the showdown. And they have yet to alight on anything to effectively spin the result, challenge the conventional wisdom that Clinton won or to change the subject to anything less damaging for the GOP nominee.

Inside Trump Tower, his inner circle of advisers has been in turmoil: while some have attempted to reach to the hard-headed candidate by suggesting to reporters that he must prepare more thoroughly for the second debate, others have spit-balled ideas aimed at changing the subject, including a last-minute trip to Israel that might replicate the more presidential optics and media saturation coverage they achieved with last month’s surprise summit with the Mexican president.
Yeah don't try and prepare for the next debate, just fly off to Israel-- that's a good plan. Think of all the great photo ops. More pictures of Trump in a prayer shawl.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:45 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Psssst, SecretLofG: I think you missed the veto thread up there.

Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for pointing that out. I barely have time to read this thread much less the whole rest of the site.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Can I just say (as an old white person) it's about time the "Heartland" got a little less attention.

On the one hand, I'm glad that Ohio is losing its Special Snowflake of the Nation status, though I accept that this means a sad decline in the Ohio Undecided Voter industry.

On the other hand, it means North Carolina's sorta kinda taking its place.

In the meantime, every dilapidated small town in Penntuckginio is getting a little economic bump from the dozens of reporters writing their own unique profiles of white working-class people.
posted by holgate at 6:52 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


I barely have time to read this thread much less the whole rest of the site.

The rest of the site? I pretty much gave up on the rest of internet (yes, including ssh and telnet).
posted by rainy at 7:04 PM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


This election is the worst. I had a feeling Palin was the worst, but if you make a list of what she said, and make a Trump list, and move windows side by side? Yeah.. And he's running for president, not VP! Did anyone else notice that?
posted by rainy at 7:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Fast forwarding to today, I give you Seth Meyers

OK, that takes me right back to childhood when I was a total sucker for those bits, and apparently I still am.
posted by bongo_x at 7:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


For those interested in downballot races, the Pride Fund to End Gun Violence released a strong ad against Republican John Mica (FL-07). His challenger, Stephanie Murphy, is a Vietnamese-American educator, businesswoman, and foreign relations specialist. I'll be paying a lot of attention to this race.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 7:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


WSJ: Trump Casinos Lost Jobs at Greater Rate than Atlantic City Rivals, Study Finds

"A study of Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump’s record in Atlantic City shows that Trump casinos lost jobs at a greater rate than their rivals, while Mr. Trump personally profited.

An analysis by Temple University law professor Jonathan Lipson ranked Trump-branded casinos “the worst” among their peers when it came to jobs over a 14-year period. Mr. Lipson, a bankruptcy scholar, found that Trump casinos shed some 7,400 jobs between 1997 and 2010. That works out, on average, to job losses per casino of 900—37% higher than at other Atlantic City gambling venues in the same period."
posted by chris24 at 7:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


I was watching the debate in Toronto, listening to the sniffing and a friend pointed out that there are a few similarities between Trump and our own Rob Ford: the privileged upbringing, the compulsive lying, the lack of inhibition, the weird pink skin tone, the same sorts of crowds supporting them.

America : you always have to upstage Canada?
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:17 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


It's all going to boil down to how much of America believes that being a lying, misogynistic, racist, bullying abuser who gets away with it 'makes you smart', isn't it?

He's campaigning for Mayor of the USA.
posted by Devonian at 7:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


hah - I think that was jinx, bonobothegreat...
posted by Devonian at 7:19 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I wish the debates were much longer - 1.5 hours? That's optimized for shouting, interruption and demagogues. Make it 16 hours, spread over 2 days, with sufficient breaks. But no, this would be real democracy, we can't have that. Same thing with the Daily Show with JS: 25min interview!? What in the name of god??!!! Can you imagine two hours of Stewart interviewing Rumsfeld? That's something I would watch.
posted by rainy at 7:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Politico: Trump ignores advice and launches Bill Clinton attack

I'm so pleased Trump is not learning from his mistakes because it means it's all gonna be ok. Like does he not realize we are numb from saturation and indifferent to Bill's infidelity, and that even if we weren't, that Trump is worse on this topic and most important of all, Bill Clinton isn't running for President and nobody gives a fuck. In my mind Bill is now the Old Guy Who Really Likes Balloons. The Old Guy Who Really Likes Balloons used to be quite the philanderer but now he's got those balloons to play with (maybe they remind him of something) while the real smarts in the family is getting ready to run the country.
posted by dis_integration at 7:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [39 favorites]


Oof, someone gave Trump his cell phone back.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I just want to say I really take solace in Metafilter right now. I had an obnoxious American encounter this evening. I'm doing course right now and since my course project is with this person I decided that it was best to just bite my tongue.

I wasn't at the course on Tuesday but she told me what happened. Thank goodness I wasn't there because I'm not sure I woulda kept my mouth shut. Apparently when she was making the presentation for our group and for some reason decided to ask how many people watched the debates. She said a few people put up their hand and she laughed. "I'm the only one here who can actually vote and I didn't even watch them. Why would you all bother? They're both so bad and it's embarassing. It's a joke and it doesn't matter what anyone here thinks. But I suppose if you want to waste your time with something that doesn't involve you then go for it."

Wha?

I honestly was quite stunned especially since she then went on to say that someone during the break a guy said something negative about Republicans and she explained to me how she lectured him. She told him if this was a real project she could take him right to HR and he'd be fired for harassment and hostile workplace.

So utterly obnoxious and I wanted to say so many things. I breathed, nodded, there was no point and would cause friction that I just didn't want to deal with for the rest of the course. I just thought to myself it's okay, I will be home in an hour. I'll be able to rant if I feel like it in a place in place with people that aren't obnoxious and actually get why people in other countries, especially Canada would want to pay attention. Oh and are also okay with people in other countries voicing their opinions about it.

So thanks all. I do appreciate it.
posted by Jalliah at 7:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [30 favorites]


Coworker was AGHAST that the focus was on Trump being mean to a woman. Said coworker is voting Stein, because coworker is a feminist who can't understand how anyone can vote for Clinton.

All the links the coworker sends me are from Breitbart and Drudge and Infowars.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


I wish the debates were much longer

The format of the big French presidential debate (there's only one for the second round) has been two hours, two moderators (the main news anchors from privately-owned TF1 and publicly-owned France 2), basically an hour of talking time each, sitting across a table. Par example, 2012.
posted by holgate at 7:33 PM on September 29, 2016


Oof, someone gave Trump his cell phone back.

Did Don Lemon say something about him today or is he blaming CNN's rating on a black guy?
posted by Jalliah at 7:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ugh, Jalliah, I'm so sorry you had to have that encounter.

In more positive news out of Arizona (!), our city leaders have demanded Trump pull his recent campaign ads because they make unlawful use of images of Phoenix police, and thus imply an endorsement.
posted by Superplin at 7:34 PM on September 29, 2016 [38 favorites]


WSJ: Hillary-Hatred Derangement Syndrome: The end of the election is now in sight. Some among the anti-Hillary brigades have decided, in deference to their exquisite sensibilities, to stay at home on Election Day, rather than vote for Mrs. Clinton. But most Americans will soon make their choice. It will be either Mr. Trump or Mrs. Clinton—experienced, forward-looking, indomitably determined and eminently sane. Her election alone is what stands between the American nation and the reign of the most unstable, proudly uninformed, psychologically unfit president ever to enter the White House.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:35 PM on September 29, 2016 [26 favorites]


My gut tells me that Trump will win. I know that his policies are horribly racist and homophobic and every kind of evil, and he'll probably render America a wasteland... but his personality and personality type are so compelling to people, and part of me really admires the ability to say anything to anyone and just not give a fuck. I don't think Hillary has that kind of charisma.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:35 PM on September 29, 2016


Wait, is his name really @donlemon?
posted by bongo_x at 7:37 PM on September 29, 2016


The joke will be on anyone who voted for him if he does win. They'll have fallen for the con. He'll be all "What wall? What jobs? I never said that."
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:37 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


the ability to say anything to anyone and just not give a fuck. I don't think Hillary has that kind of charisma.

um, that's not charisma...
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:38 PM on September 29, 2016 [74 favorites]


I barely have time to read this thread much less the whole rest of the site.

I've almost forgotten that there is a Metafilter outside of the election threads.
posted by octothorpe at 7:38 PM on September 29, 2016 [37 favorites]


holgate: this looks and sounds SO much better. The time counters remind me of something else I thought during the debate: it would be such an easy thing to add to have rows of LEDs light up behind each candidate when it's their speaking time so that if someone is going over time or interrupted and talking over another, it would be VISUALLY obvious to everyone. This would literally cut down on 90% of interruptions.

Instead, a lot of people genuinely think moderator is playing favorites. With my idea, it would be visually obvious he is being fair.
posted by rainy at 7:39 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


For years I've been calling for more boldness in politics and personal life. Say what you want, yell what you want, and if other people disagree they can talk and yell back. Call out any bullshit and hypocricy when you see it, even if its in an inappropriate place. Unfortuanatly, the only people doing that are on the Right. Where are the angry, fiery, leftist agitators? I'll interrupt anyone making a dumb statment - Trump makes so many that Hillary should be constantly calling him an idiot.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:41 PM on September 29, 2016


People also critisize Trump's loose relationship with 'the truth', as if the 'truth' is a static thing instead of something created by social context and our own emotions. 'Ecstatic truth', as Herzog calls it.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:41 PM on September 29, 2016


Sure, because our society loves to hear a woman boldly telling a man he's wrong.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:43 PM on September 29, 2016 [49 favorites]


The joke will be on anyone who voted for him if he does win. They'll have fallen for the con. He'll be all "What wall? What jobs? I never said that."

Or he will spend his time ranting and hiring and firing everyone because he can't get his frickin wall built. The wall will become this obsession. I think he really does want a wall just because of what he thinks it will do but because it will be his monument. Kinda like Hitler was with the building of Germania.

I'm only kinda joking.
posted by Jalliah at 7:43 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm baffled any time someone mentions charisma and Donald Trump in the same sentence. He rambles like a drunk street preacher, makes bizarre faces that it blatantly looks like he's stood in front of the mirror for hours trying to perfect, makes bizarre hair and make-up choices, and if I came across him ranting on a corner I wouldn't stay to listen, I'd turn around and walk the other direction.

He's a con man, nakedly, unrepentantly, he might as well have a name tag on that says "Hello, I'm here to tell you lies and take your money!" Lots of people are apparently extremely gullible but that's different from charisma.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:45 PM on September 29, 2016 [57 favorites]


Trump's probably the best Republican, because at least he's corrupt and believes in money instead of religious convictions. And for most of human history, leaders were those who built monuments to themselves.

I still won't vote for him.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:45 PM on September 29, 2016


as if the 'truth' is a static thing

in this context, truth is highly correlated to fact. this is politics, not philosophy.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:45 PM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


But 'facts' all depend on interpretation and context, too. It's another thing the Left has lost - they're so focused on numbers, on being pedantic and correct. It's fine - 99% of the time they are correct. But people aren't moved by facts or numbers, they're moved by blatant emotional manipulation. We need some Democrats who are willing to read their Eduard Bernys, learn some oratory, and get their hands dirty. Obama could do that. Hell Springsteen and Kanye are probably the closest we have.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:47 PM on September 29, 2016


the ability to say anything to anyone and just not give a fuck. I don't think Hillary has that kind of charisma.


This is such a wonderful non-sequitor. Is it like, any expression can fit?

the ability to say anything to anyone and just not give a fuck. I don't think Hillary has that kind of Transluminiscent Aetiology.

posted by rainy at 7:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [35 favorites]


I was watching the debate in Toronto, listening to the sniffing and a friend pointed out that there are a few similarities between Trump and our own Rob Ford: the privileged upbringing, the compulsive lying, the lack of inhibition, the weird pink skin tone, the same sorts of crowds supporting them.

America : you always have to upstage Canada?


I will never forget my reaction, one crisp May morning in 2013, checking my phone and seeing the Toronto Star headline "ROB FORD IN CRACK VIDEO SCANDAL".

Instantaneously, completely confidently, I thought: Nope. No way. That cannot be true, because that cannot be the story behind that man's general weirdness and awfulness. It's just too stupid.

And we know how that ended up. One stupid thing after another, with stupid denials and stupid attacks, continuing with a stupid election campaign and ending with his stupid cancer that robbed our city of the closure it deserved.

So basically, what I'm saying is that Trump's Razor is older than Trump himself, and I suspect it will outlive him. I wish I believed that this was the last time we'd have to deal with a campaign where it applies, but I'm not optimistic.

Also, wouldn't the ultimate Trump's Razor turn out to be if Trump actually did turn out to be high as a kite all the time? After all the Ford/Trump comparisons, that would be truly, magnificently stupid.
posted by saturday_morning at 7:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


CiS: You... you're saying "feels not reals"? Like, not sarcastically?
posted by Justinian at 7:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


you lost me at kanye, but your citing him explains a lot.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm baffled any time someone mentions charisma and Donald Trump in the same sentence.

It's like 1/2 our country suddenly got hybristophilia.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


I don't think Hillary has that kind of Transluminiscent Aetiology.

I know Transluminiscent Aetiology. I got the best Transluminiscent Aetiology. I got yuge Transluminiscent Aetiology, believe me, and it's gonna be fantastic.
posted by tclark at 7:50 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump doesn't have charisma, people watch him for the same reason they slow down at a car wreck--is it really that bad, oh my god it is! It's fascinating in a sick way, if you like, but not charismatic.

I can't speak for all the reasons people vote for him, but it's not charisma. Celebrity + thrill of the forbidden (open racism/misogyny) + desire to stick it to people they resent +fuck you that's why! seems like a likely formula though.
posted by emjaybee at 7:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


MeFite lawysers:

Could all the contractors Trump robbed get together for a class action lawsuit?
posted by ocschwar at 7:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


One thing is for sure: The next time some MRA douche starts to go on about how all women love assholes, I'm going to ask if he voted for Donald Trump.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [19 favorites]


I still won't vote for him.

Which is good because it suggests that you're smart enough not to believe your own bullshit.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


Could all the contractors Trump robbed get together for a class action lawsuit?

Reddit IAARLs said "no", because there's no common element to their robbery, just a common robber. That sounds about right to me.
posted by holgate at 7:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Well, I do agree that there needs to be stronger attempt to appeal to emotions on the Left. Voters are (mostly) not deciding on facts. The problem is that Left projects are emotionally rooted in things like empathy, common cause, hope for the future, and those things are not as easy to engender in a 2 minute TV ad as fear, anger, and resentment.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've almost forgotten that there is a Metafilter outside of the election threads.

Before this election season, in the mornings after taking care of the pets and getting spouse and spawn out the door, my rhythm was to have coffee and toast while catching up with new posts and comments for 45 minutes or so. I looked forward to it and interesting /uplifting posts often set the tone for the day.

Now I grab the tablet before getting out of bed to catch up on The Current Thread. Now I often don't even look at the front page until evening. This election can't be over soon enough.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


I'm baffled any time someone mentions charisma and Donald Trump in the same sentence.... I'd turn around and walk the other direction.

Then you've never met anyone who was extremely charismatic. I have, up to and including the Big Dog himself, President William Jefferson Clinton, and let me tell you -- even if you know for a fact that you are about to meet a charismatic con man who is going to try to essentially sell you a car without letting you look under the hood, there is a damn good chance that you will end up buying the car and enjoying having been taken for the ride.
posted by Etrigan at 8:00 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]


Here's what keeps me up at night: Ratings for the town hall debate climb even higher as an ever-increasing population tunes it to watch Trump do more self-immolation. Trump shows up at the third debate obviously drunk, and steps down the next day, citing an unfair, unlevel playing field. The RNC invokes Rule 9 of this and unilaterally gives Mitt a second stab at the nomination. That sliver of America that sits between the solid 35% of repub supporters no matter what and the 45% of the incredulously happily snaps back to voting for the repub candidate, saving the nation from the total disgrace of having someone with no Y chromosome as their leader.

In the long threads I don't know if anyone's mentioned Malcom Gladwell's Revisionist History first episode on tokenism and moral self-licensing. He plays a clip where Marc Maron (I think) asked Obama how it feels to be America's last black president, and suggests that if Clinton wins, there's a very good chance she will be the last woman elected to the position for a long time to come. It feels almost the same for someone to say they were going to vote for her, and switched back to Romney, but that shows how open-minded they are.
posted by morspin at 8:02 PM on September 29, 2016


Trump shows up at the third debate obviously drunk, and steps down the next day

I really don't think Trump is going to drop out at this point. And if he does, there won't be unity behind the effort to replace him, but utter chaos. Rubio and Cruz will both think it's their turn and they'll be lobbying fiercly. It will be a complete disaster and will take weeks to resolve. Then whoever they pick will have exactly one week to convince America to vote for him/her. That's not enough time. Many ballots will still have Trump's name on them. Early voters will have already voted for Clinton or Trump. Nobody will know what is what. Clinton will take 400 EVs.
posted by dis_integration at 8:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


and unilaterally gives Mitt a second stab at the nomination.

na ga happen. The elections are now in the hands of the several states and their respective election laws, and RNC rules don't mean shit.
posted by holgate at 8:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump shows up at the third debate obviously drunk, and steps down the next day

Ha ha. No. He'd just claim Clinton drugged him somehow.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm watching the Frontline thing now. It's pretty amazing.
Just dropping in to recommend that you recommend it. And recommending that you watch the some WH correspondents' dinner videos after, especially 2015 and 16.
posted by rp at 8:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'd definitely buy that Bill Clinton is wicked charismatic. Everyone who's ever met him says so and while I myself am not a fan of the way he has comported himself in his personal life, I can definitely detect charisma even through the TV. He might be a phony but he's got the charisma such that no one sees it or (more likely) no one cares. You want to listen to him talk, you want to hear what he has to say, you want to be his friend.

Trump on the other hand I literally cannot stand to hear talk and watching him in action makes me cringe with second-hand embarrassment. That is not charisma.

And frankly I don't think that charisma is really possible without empathy. The thing everyone says about Bill Clinton is that he makes everyone else disappear and it's just you and him because he's so convincing that he's completely 100% into you, and only you, at that moment. A narcissist can't achieve that because the only person who is ever truly real to them is themselves.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [76 favorites]


You... you're saying "feels not reals"? Like, not sarcastically?


Yes, because what's 'real'? You can take one fact and interpret it a zillion ways through your own personal mythology. Like... I went to Trump Tower as a kid. Back then, I saw it as decadant and ugly hotel with bad food. But if I was walking like an Egyptian king, I'd see it as a monument to power. If I'm imagining myself as Percy Shelley, I can see it as a future monument to hubris. If I'm looking at it through the lens of labor, I can see it as an explotative form of capitalism. If I'm looking at it aestheically from a helicopter I see it as part of the skyline. Etc.

Pedantic fact-checking inspires nobody and exalts nobody. Trump is wrong, but he's also presenting a larger than life persona, a sort of wrestling heel vibe that I try and channel whenever I'm performing - hatred is a powerful energy. The left has forgotten that tradition of bold statements and powerful gestures (except on the fringes, like Bernie or musicians like Springsteen).

Read some Sam Kriss:

It's notable that this development only took place in the context of the emergence of a truly global capitalism and what the philosopher Max Horkheimer would later call "instrumental reason"—scientific reason that doesn't just explain reality, but which is put to use (the mode of reason that alienates people from a world reconfigured as one vast factory). For millions, technological advances meant not freedom, but utter misery—and just as it declares that everything can be known, instrumental reason abstracts that knowledge beyond immediate experience. "Enlightenment," Horkheimer writes, "has always aimed at liberating human beings from fear and installing them as masters. Yet the wholly enlightened Earth is radiant with triumphant calamity." Faced with a reality that could no longer be intuitively understood, whose secrets had become the property of a small class of scientists and administrators, the early flat earthers tried to claw back some of their autonomy. They insisted that their own experience, not the diktat of a ruling class, was true. And when you look at the Earth with your own two eyes, it doesn't look round. It looks flat.

I'm still not voting for Trump, because his policies will cause measurable harm to millions of people.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


And frankly I don't think that charisma is really possible without empathy. The thing everyone says about Bill Clinton is that he makes everyone else disappear and it's just you and him because he's so convincing that he's completely 100% into you, and only you, at that moment. A narcissist can't achieve that because the only person who is ever truly real to them is themselves.

Aren't there tricks to fake empathy, though? There's got to be a guide book or something, or there wouldn't be so many charismatic sociopaths. Something to do with eye contact and pretending to listen and care?
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah but that would imply that Donald Trump has read a book. I am pretty sure he has not.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Read some Sam Kriss:

Sam Kriss has no idea what Adorno & Horkheimer are talking about.
posted by dis_integration at 8:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Something to do with eye contact and pretending to listen and care?

Yes, but Trump can't be bothered to do this. He bullies, and I guess that appeals to certain people. There must be a lot more masochists out there than I thought.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Someone random on Twitter made the point that Trump's campaign mailing list can now probably be sold at a decent premium to any right-wing shyster for the next decade.

Ugh, something needs to happen to call in his loans fast. I don't really want it to be the stock market pressure on Deutsche Bank.
posted by holgate at 8:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah but that would imply that Donald Trump has read a book. I am pretty sure he has not.


I was talking about Bill Clinton, and my question wasn't rhetorical. I'm genuinely curious as to whether self-centered sociopaths can learn to fake empathy. I'd be shocked if they couldn't. Hell why doesn't Bill stump up for some of the same media training or personality training or whatever that he used for Hillary?
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:14 PM on September 29, 2016


I'm working on a few of my habitually non-voting friends here in Massachusetts to cast a ballot this election on the basis that there's a pretty decent recreational marijuana legalization bill on the ballot, and the polls for it are close so every vote matters. (Bottom line: legal in private only, legal age is 21, possession of up to ten ounces permitted, tax rate is 10%, and you're allowed to grow up to 6 plants.) At least one is wavering. We shall see.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yes, but Trump can't be bothered to do this. He bullies, and I guess that appeals to certain people. I guess there are a lot more masochists out there than I thought.


If you agree with what Trump (or Kanye, or whoever) is saying, it's not 'bullying' to say what you believe as loudly and as pointedly as possible. In fact, you could argue that if you believe something strongly you have a moral/personal duty to say that thing as often and as loudly as possible.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:15 PM on September 29, 2016


Trek Against Trump

Kirk: liberal interventionist, advocate of responsibility to protect, thus in Hillary's camp since day one. Currently out banging on doors.

Picard: acknowledged Hillary as the rational alternative after seriously considering all options, even Carson. Currently spending time on 4chan advocating for the rights of all sentient beings.

Sisko: voted for Bernie in the primaries. While it pains him to see America so far from a socialist utopia, he is proud, proud, to support the candidate who's holding back the night. Currently doing the dirtiest job the Clinton campaign can find.

Janeway: preferred Clinton in the primaries, voted for Cruz. Will do whatever it takes to stop Trump (don't ask).
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:17 PM on September 29, 2016 [36 favorites]


Compulsory voting like Australia has would fix this, by the way. It tends to favor bland moderates over the charismatic, so no Trump.

On a non-personal note, I remember a Spider-Man 2099 comic I read as a kid that had somebody asking for money with "President Clinton" on it - the punchline was 'Bill or Hillary?"

I can't seem to find a scan online, though, so maybe I imagined it.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:17 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


1st ballot hall of fame basketball player and NBA champion Ray Allen: "Hillary was great last night!! I'm with her!!!"
posted by cashman at 8:17 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trek illustrates what I mean. Kirk is closer to Trump - like the rest of the Original Series he had the courage of his convictions and a brash, restless energy. Picard was a boring administrator, a Hillary type, a facillitator who spent his time in conference rooms. Janeway was the same. Sisko was the only one who had both the fire and social justice conviction we need right now.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kirk is closer to Trump

Oh man, let's not go here.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:21 PM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


Compulsory voting like Australia has would fix this, by the way.

Wat. You know about Tony Abbott, right? Climate denier, Fucker-over of refugee boat people? Compulsory voting has its upsides, but "fixing" this problem is not among them.
posted by tclark at 8:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Kirk is closer to Trump - like the rest of the Original Series he had the courage of his convictions and a brash, restless energy.

Kirk is closer to Bill Clinton. And maybe that's the skeleton key: Hillary can deal with Trump because (mixing my geekdom metaphors) Trump is sorta kinda the Chaotic Evil alignment version of Chaotic Good Bill.
posted by holgate at 8:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [26 favorites]


I was talking about Bill Clinton, and my question wasn't rhetorical. I'm genuinely curious as to whether self-centered sociopaths can learn to fake empathy. I'd be shocked if they couldn't.

Speaking from personal experience: they absolutely can. I knew a charismatic sociopath intimately, and she basically did her homework: she was good at active listening, she did research for her lies. She figured out what people wanted to hear, told them that and played with them for her amusement. She made sure to set everyone close to her against each other so we wouldn't compare notes, too. (I think of that period of my life as 'that time I dated Saffron from Firefly.')

Trump... I think it's fair to say Trump is doing the lazy rich man version of that, actually. He's not appealing to people like *me*, but he's doing similar basic tricks: trying to appear to be what the crowd wants, when deep down, he would just as soon pour gasoline on those people and light them on fire. If he'd grown up poor, it's a fair bet he'd be better at the tool set.

Trek illustrates what I mean. Kirk is closer to Trump - like the rest of the Original Series he had the courage of his convictions and a brash, restless energy.

Ugh. No, just no.
posted by mordax at 8:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Again, personality-wise. Which means that, unlike Picard and everyone other than Sisko, he has a personality. And he uses it in favor of what was, at the time, progressive causes. We need that.

Basically, the left used to be cool. What happened?
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't think it's charisma, it's an attraction to a display of confidence. Confidence can be part of what makes someone charismatic but it also can work on it's own. Some people are just attracted to 'confidence' and it doesn't necessarily matter what that person is confident about. You can literally talk a bunch a bull and if you pull off the display some people will by it. During my activist and political escapades it was one of the top skills communication experts advised us to work on because projecting confidence was a persuasion technique that worked beyond whatever words were said.

It is totally gendered though. Men have it a whole lot easier using this skill because of misogynist perception of women being confident but regardless it still works.
posted by Jalliah at 8:22 PM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]




"(mixing my geekdom metaphors)"

Listen, I just need to know which one's Rick Grimes and which one's King Joffrey, okay?
posted by komara at 8:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


Thank you, Joe.
posted by rp at 8:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wat. You know about Tony Abbott, right? Climate denier, Fucker-over of refugee boat people? Compulsory voting has its upsides, but "fixing" this problem is not among them.

Yes, but he's still pretty mild, went to a good school, qualified politician, etc. And he was replaced by the closest his party had to a centre-left populist (until Turnbull went bad).
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:24 PM on September 29, 2016


I don't understand the attempt to dress up Trump's appeal or approach is some kind of theoretical understanding that can be replicated by Democrats.

He's selfish, self-centered and afraid. That's the root of his problem and his actions or 'speaking his mind' won't ultimately bring him or anyone else anywhere towards something resembling progress.
posted by localhuman at 8:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


You can literally talk a bunch a bull and if you pull off the display some people will by it.

See, there's that assumption that there's anything you can say that isn't some form of 'bullshit'.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:24 PM on September 29, 2016


Yes, but he's still pretty mild, went to a good school, qualified politician, etc.

This is much more an artifact of the parliamentary system than compulsory voting.
posted by tclark at 8:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


If you agree with what Trump (or Kanye, or whoever) is saying, it's not 'bullying' to say what you believe as loudly and as pointedly as possible. In fact, you could argue that if you believe something strongly you have a moral/personal duty to say that thing as often and as loudly as possible.

No. Like seriously no. There is a big difference between speaking strong, loudly and forcefully and bullying. They are so not the same thing. Ugh. Ugh Ugh
posted by Jalliah at 8:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [36 favorites]


He's selfish, self-centered and afraid. That's the root of his problem and his actions or 'speaking his mind' won't ultimately bring him or anyone else anywhere towards something resembling progress.

But I'm selfish, self-centred, and afraid. And because I'm self-centered, I'd prefer politics that give me free healthcare and welfare and keep my minority and LGBT friends safe, and my country prosperous, and WWIII not starting. And I can't be the only self, self-centered, and afraid person with those politics. The Left can't afford to abandon all the sad, angry geeks to the alt-Right and the Trumposphere because eventually that crew will build Trump 2.0 and get some sucess. I've had this argument a zillion times - people on our side need more passion and fire and anger.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I've had this argument a zillion times - people on our side need more passion and fire and anger.

You mean bullies?
posted by Jalliah at 8:28 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Pedantic fact-checking inspires nobody and exalts nobody

I love pedantic fact-checking! Obama does it really well, too. "The reality is...Let us be very clear that...."

A lot of what Trump does is bullying - or at least, bombast and swagger. And I really think it interacts with many people's psychology of strength/authority in a way that's comfortable to them. It's amazing to think that that many people have internalized a history of abuse, that we have a third of the nation operating under Stockholm Syndrome, but that might very well be what's up.
posted by Miko at 8:28 PM on September 29, 2016 [61 favorites]


It's the fantasy that the rich asshole boss who's terrorized them either with his opaque demands or gigantic financial power is going to be on their side now and help pull the other crabs back into the bucket.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


I don't know at what point the left was "cool" the way Trump is "cool". Progressivism hasn't been something you can really do to piss off your parents within my voting lifetime, certainly. It hasn't, within my voting lifetime, been in a position to divorce the "fun" stuff, like more liberal attitudes about sex and drugs, from stuff like how you're supposed to sort your recycling and drive less and give more of your money to social causes. Trump's "cool" is that he allows people to abandon responsibility for the system and insist that all the problems lay with the people who are currently being hurt by the system. We can't do that. We can't win people who want that without abandoning principles.

On the up side, despite those people being noisily miserable all over the internet, there aren't actually that many of them.
posted by Sequence at 8:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's not that. It's the willingness to call out bullshit (which, as I just noted, is everything). Everybody knows that Trump is a meglomaniacl monster, but why isn't anyone saying it besides comedians? Why has it been so long since, Obama aside, we had firey rhetoric and mythic oratory on the Left? We should be telling stories of the sad and underprivleged we need to help. One Springsteen song off The River about the plight of Mexican immigrants would do more to stop The Wall than a zillion Nate Silver predictions or John Oliver zingers.

Jeb Lund said it best:

Trump cut through over a dozen Republican candidates like an industrial saw shredding a box of Kleenex, and it couldn't have happened to a more dismal gallery of frauds. After years of complaining about deficits while promoting tax cuts that reduced government revenues by trillions, after years of promoting dominionist Christianity while claiming religious discrimination, after years of claiming to be victims while blaming everything wrong in America on homosexuals and college professors and minorities and Islam, after years of saying whatever the fuck they felt like and repeating it until it sounded true, each one of these blow-dried mediocrities got fired from The Apprentice: Republican Party by someone with even more sociopathic contempt for facts, logical consistency and other human beings than they had.
Hell, it wasn't even difficult. Just coming up with mean nicknames was enough on a stage teeming with their brand of puffed-up prevaricating nincompoopery. Donald Trump wasn't a legendary force, and he wasn't a ruthless killer. He was the only guy with a fork in a room full of inflatable clown punching bags – shoving them and waiting for them to rock back and forth, their fixed idiotic grins leaning into the fatal puncture.

posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]


This business between the Daily Stormers and Milo is deeply disturbing. It appears that they're complaining about a sort of cultural appropriation, obviously without using that phrase, of the term "alt-right" by people the Stormers consider to be insufficiently pure (either because they're not racist enough or worse, because they have some kind of connection to Judaism). This excerpt (archive.is link, contains ethnic slurs and an offensive caricature of Yiannopoulos) is instructive:
It’s important to understand that MILO isn’t trying to become the leader of the Alt-Right. He’s just trying to use it, in the same way that Glenn Beck used the Tea Party to get himself a show on Fox News. Glenn Beck stopped talking about the Tea Party as soon as it had been sucked dry.

Vox Day posted a blog yesterday attacking me for some reason (I’ve never said anything bad about the guy), in which he stated that MILO’s goal is to get a show on Fox News. And he’d know. They’re friends.

We created a movement, got massive media attention for trolling, then we allowed this [extremely offensive slur for a Jewish person] to come in and redefine it and now it’s basically over.

Alt-Right: Now or Never
Hate to say it, fam. But I guess I have to, because no one else is going to: if we don’t get control of this term now, it’s going to be gone real soon. Alex Jones is already picking it up, and this week used it to refer to the Jew Michael Savage (nee Weiner) and well as Stephen Crowder (he actually said Hillary was a Nazi going after the Alt-Right Jew Savage). Vox Day is doing something weird with it and MILO is doing his thing.

I’m doing my best to hold down the fort here. I’m doing interviews making sure the term is associated with White Nationalism.
As far as I can tell, they're pissed off that they spent all this time coming up with dank memes for their little white supremacy trolling club, and now a bunch of folks, some of them the very enemies the Stormers fight against, who are merely deplorable racists are coming in and adopting the banner in the hope of fame and profit.
posted by zachlipton at 8:32 PM on September 29, 2016 [29 favorites]


I do think that the closing argument against Trump is to invoke the pain of being conned to people who may have been conned. Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

they're pissed off that they spent all this time coming up with dank memes for their little white supremacy trolling club

The He-Man Pepe Appropriators Club.
posted by holgate at 8:34 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


zach, thanks for reading that stuff and summarizing so I don't have to.
posted by mmoncur at 8:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Everybody knows that Trump is a meglomaniacl monster, but why isn't anyone saying it besides comedians?

Well, there's something to be said for the ability to remain calm when a toddler is throwing a tantrum at your feet. Besides, hysterical name-calling doesn't really look good on a person. There are ways to demonstrate conviction that aren't predicated on being the loudest person in the room.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


This business between the Daily Stormers and Milo is deeply disturbing.

Also sadly predictable. If you join forces with people where hating certain types of people is part of their worldview and you're one of those people, you're only going to get a pass for so long. They will eventually fight you.
posted by Jalliah at 8:44 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


holgate: this looks and sounds SO much better. The time counters remind me of something else I thought during the debate: it would be such an easy thing to add to have rows of LEDs light up behind each candidate when it's their speaking time so that if someone is going over time or interrupted and talking over another, it would be VISUALLY obvious to everyone. This would literally cut down on 90% of interruptions.

This is what you have in Canadian elections (well, just 3? 5? lights that count down when you're running out of time). When the last light goes off, the mic turns off automatically.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


If you get cut off on stage, you can always heckle and interrupt from the audience.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 8:52 PM on September 29, 2016


We need fewer scoops and more "don't fucking vote for this person" editorials.

Every paper in the country coming out against Trump may do some good among the old-school Republicans (for whom Trump is already questionable) I suppose. It has to do less than zero good among people who like him. Newspapers are losers!
posted by atoxyl at 8:52 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's not that. It's the willingness to call out bullshit (which, as I just noted, is everything).

Your demand for more people with a "willingness to call out bullshit" at the same time you are trying to argue that everything is bullshit, should be evidence enough that you're just talking gibberish at this point. Whatever you're looking for here, it doesn't have anything to do with politics.

(I assume that's Milo on the Stormer page. Sigh. What a waste of good drag.)

(I can't write "Milo" without thinking "Milo Minderbinder.")
posted by octobersurprise at 8:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [40 favorites]


It's not like it's difficult to think of ways to get the candidates to keep to time, not interrupt, etc. Shutting off mic, LEDs, sure. People have thought of (and implemented) these things. The problem is that the debates are highly controlled and exhaustively negotiated performances. The campaigns spend months in talks with the Commission on Presidential Debates, and the structure and format - including things like time cues - is set in advance. Near universally, campaigns don't want these sorts of indicators or hard and fast cutoffs, so we don't have them. And they actually tweaked the formats quite a bit this year.
posted by Miko at 8:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


As far as I can tell, they're pissed off that they spent all this time coming up with dank memes for their little white supremacy trolling club, and now a bunch of folks, some of them the very enemies the Stormers fight against, who are merely deplorable racists are coming in and adopting the banner in the hope of fame and profit.

I struggle to have any sympathy for Milo, who by his own admission is a professional troll out only for the 'lolz', and personal profit. Huh, some white supremacists mean what they say, whodathunkit.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:04 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


Lindsay Ellis did a Loose Canon episode about how Hillary Clinton has been portrayed in pop-culture over the last 25-odd years. In particular, there's a lot of focus on how she's been portrayed on SNL. It's interesting to see how traits like "smart," "ambitious," "conniving," or "in over her head" wax and wane in the public imagination.

Also, the super early stuff where Bill & Hillary were seen as being deeply in love with each other.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 9:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think Trump has some charisma, and good delivery of lines at times (which is a small thing but small things can be very important). But that's not the reason he's done so well in the campaign. Most of the reason is that he can attack people without seeming mean and he has a wide arsenal of how to attack people: with a bit of humor, nicknames, sideway swipes, jocular exaggeration, and if I watched the primary debates with pen and paper I could make a much longer list. He's done this for all of his life, it's almost like a hobby or a bit like a sport. Other people tense up a bit or get a kind of a solemn look when they go on attack, but he can do that with natural ease. And this is what a lot of campaigning boils down to. This had been the dilimma of campaigning: negative ads work, but at the same time open you to criticism that you are taking the low road, you're mudslinging. Trump has been able to get the best of both worlds: he's going far more negative than anyone but at the same time it almost feels like he's just having a conversation with you and happened to mention a few things, and whether they are good, bad.. you tell me!

In the debate he kind of leaned too much on it (as well as on repetition for emphasis). That's not good, makes it too obvious, the pattern starts to unravel. If he prepares well next time, it could work again. He doesn't have enough time for the second, but in third I think he might be dangerous.
posted by rainy at 9:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


On charisma: during a previous presidential campaign — I think it was 2008 — late one night around the time of the conventions, CSPAN was showing historical footage of old conventions. At this time, they were showing Eisenhower's acceptance speech at the 1956 Republican convention — so, he was running for his second term.

I don't think I had ever seen footage of Eisenhower speaking before. And my God, he projected such a confident moral certitude in his convictions. I was ready to vote for him within five minutes of listening to him, regardless of the issues. Purely on the issues I imagine I would have preferred Stevenson, had I been alive and a voter then, but Ike was such a compelling speaker I'd probably have voted for him instead.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've almost forgotten that there is a Metafilter outside of the election threads.

Some of us are working really hard to provide a light counterpoint to this dreary election season. Come up for air once in a while ;)
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


Your demand for more people with a "willingness to call out bullshit" at the same time you are trying to argue that everything is bullshit, should be evidence enough that you're just talking gibberish at this point. Whatever you're looking for here, it doesn't have anything to do with politics.


Exactly! That's why Trump is powerful. People call him on his 'contridications', as if somebody making a statement 10 years ago is the same person or the same context as somebody now. People critisize his 'hypocrisy' in changing statements to appeal to different groups, as if it's not something everyone else does. All he cares about - all he appears to care about - is winning by manipulating people, and the 'truth' or 'facts' are secondary. Which sounds like an insult, but it's the only way to win in politics - by constantly maniuplating and twisting narratives and groups of people. It can be used so easily for progressive causes! Did politicians or Will and Grace do more for gay marriage? Did scientists or Seth Rogan do more for marijuana legalisation? Is there any doubt that Bill Clinton does what Trump does, only better? If the Left wants to win, they need to seize the power of narratives, not rely on some base conception of 'facts'.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 9:10 PM on September 29, 2016


Ohio has not fallen into step with the demographic changes transforming the United States, growing older, whiter and less educated […]

OMG I am Ohio.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


Mod note: Charlemagne in Sweatpants, your philosophy has been adequately expounded here. Please let it drop now. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 9:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [79 favorites]


Clinton should have picked a vice president who couild match Trump, but unfortunatley, The Onion's Joe Biden is fictional.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 9:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Miko: mic shutoffs would not work well because they still make moderator look unfair, and sometimes depending on question people might need 10 seconds here and there to finish the thought, to have a factual response, etc. A led indicator would be great because it would be a soft "cutoff": when the opposing light is on, it would be understood that there's a bit of leeway but a speaker's overtime would be evaluated by audience immediately as to how long it is, how often does he need it, what exactly is he saying that was so important that he needed 20s overtime here, 30s overtime there, etc. There would be a lot less speaker vs. moderator dynamic that Trump abused. Much less complaints after the debate.
posted by rainy at 9:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


It appears that they're complaining about a sort of cultural appropriation, obviously without using that phrase, of the term "alt-right" by people the Stormers consider to be insufficiently pure

Ha! I ran across the other side of this conflict the other day. The alt-right trolls allege that the neo-Nazis only joined the "alt-right" banner because, wait for it... false-flagging liberals drew them in by putting their coded symbols into dank alt-right memes. Because the Left are the REAL fascists, or something. Hoo boy.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 9:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


The campaigns spend months in talks with the Commission on Presidential Debates, and the structure and format - including things like time cues - is set in advance.

Forgive the mansplain, but there is actually no formal campaign-driven agreement on structure and format this year like there was in 2012. In essence, both campaigns have signed off on the format as set by the CPD.
posted by holgate at 9:16 PM on September 29, 2016


My wife was once in the same room as Bill Clinton. She didn't meet him, speak with him or even come within 30 feet of him, and even so she said she could pick up on the charisma he exuded.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:16 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


I've had this argument a zillion times - people on our side need more passion and fire and anger.

Speak for yourself.

Aside from the gendered aspect (because a woman who gets publicly, passionately angry about something has never been accused of being an unstable bitch or anything), I don't agree that "our side" needs this. Or rather, I don't agree that this should be the role of the President.

I don't need a President who oozes charisma and is always exuding some kind of "passion". That sounds fucking exhausting. Don't get me wrong, I could listen to Obama recite the goddamn phone book. But I love him more for his measured thoughtfulness than his soaring oratory. When he does get personal, or angry, or hurt, it's fifty million times more powerful because he's so constrained about it.

All movements need people of passion and fire - but they also need the more measured types, the wonks, the people who play the long game and work for incremental changes they know they can get, even when it means falling short and compromising. We need to the former for their vision of how the world can be, and we need the latter for their knowledge of how the world actually is. Maybe there's a platonic ideal of a presidential candidate who marries both of these qualities equally, but I'm not holding my breath. And frankly, in terms of inspiration, I'm personally more inspired by a particular person from Group 2. She's the adult I want running this show.

This goes back to my (probably tiresome at this point) pushback against the idea that Everyone Hates Hillary (or at least finds her an vastly uninspiring choice). She may not have the oratorical skills of her husband or Obama, but I don't need it. Apparently she does the Small Groups Charisma thing incredibly well - I don't know, I've never met her in person - but even so, I'm buying what she's selling. Just because it's not working for you doesn't mean it's not working for everyone.

Also...please to rewatch some classic Trek. I know that Kirk has sort of become known as being the hotshot, by-the-seat-of-his-pants dude who bags all the babes, but my most recent rewatch really made me see the character in a new light, and now I find myself sticking up for him. It was so obvious that his first love was to his ship and the safety of everyone on it, and it surprised me to see how downright conservative he could be when it came right down to it.

(I love the idea of Sisko being the one to do the dirty work that Clinton can't do herself. It's sort of the Bucky and Cap story, in the Winter Soldier comics retcon.)
posted by Salieri at 9:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [68 favorites]


mic shutoffs would not work well because they still make moderator look unfair, and sometimes depending on question people might need 10 seconds here and there to finish the thought, to have a factual response, etc.

The moderator isn't shutting the mic off, which makes it pretty hard to claim the moderator is unfair. And in practice I think the lights include a 5 second grace period....so you get time is running out, time is running out..time out..4, 3, 2, 1 off.

The fact is that if you KNOW how much time you have from the start and you KNOW you're going to be held to that time, you give answers that fill that time, within 3 or 4 seconds. This is what debaters (as in university debaters) do, because you absolutely cannot go over and because you will lose points for leaving more than a couple of seconds unfilled. I realize that the importance of the debates is very different here, but if a bunch of 18 year olds can learn to make their answers fit an arbitrary length of time, then presidential candidates with hoards of advisers and coaches can do it, too.

This isn't a situation where you talk for a while and the moderator says "ok 30 more seconds" and you never actually knew how long you would have until they said that. If you know from the second you open your mouth that you have 2 minutes, you will be very practiced at knowing what 2 minutes feels like, knowing how to organize an answer that lasts 2 minutes, and knowing how to explain your various talking points in 2 minutes (assuming you bothered to prep for the debate).
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:23 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


CIS: there's a difference in saying this is a dark color when it's deep navy, and saying it's black when it's white. For instance, Trump flatly denied the global warming statement or the support of Iraq war. Clinton said she did not do anything illegal with emails, but that it was a mistake. That's perhaps one of her most notable semi-fibs. Illegal is a fairly vague term and she picked a point in that vagueness that suited her. In other words, sometimes we lie because language is inherently imprecise, sometimes we lie because interpret things in a favorable light, and sometimes we are just like "No I did not take your sandwich from the fridge, I'm frankly a little insulted that you even thought I'm capable of that, oh you saw me alright bro."
posted by rainy at 9:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


I don't think I had ever seen footage of Eisenhower speaking before. And my God, he projected such a confident moral certitude in his convictions. I was ready to vote for him within five minutes of listening to him, regardless of the issues. Purely on the issues I imagine I would have preferred Stevenson, had I been alive and a voter then, but Ike was such a compelling speaker I'd probably have voted for him instead.

In 2008, a guy my dad went to seminary with ran for Congress as a Democrat against Michele Bachmann. They had one televised debate, and I watched it over the internet. It was immediately obvious she would win. You'd have never guessed she was known for wild-eyed crazy statements. She absolutely had the charisma of a national politician, and spoke so certainly about appropriations and filling pot-holes.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 9:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


What Trump does is basically the implicit working concept of a lot of comedy. The idea being you are mocking people to an audience, which by dint of being spoken to and thus "in" on the conversation are immunized from the direct attack of the bit, It's "other people" not being addressed who are bear the brunt of the joke since those who are 'there' are expected to "get it" and develop a bond of sorts with the comedian by their approving response.

With someone like Trump this would mean the people he's addressing can see him as "tough" instead of a bully because he's talking to them so, implicitly, they expect there's been a bond developed that protects them from those who must be his real targets. Standing behind a bully can be a pretty safe space to be in if you don't think the bully will be successfully challenged.

The Bill Clinton charisma thing is weird to me since I could not stand the man at all in no small part because of my reaction to his brand of "empathy". But I could obviously see and hear that other people swooned when he spoke. It was a source of a lot of contention for me among my politically active acquaintanceships at the time. Bill was undeniably the most gifted politician I've ever seen, but I say that without it being meant necessarily as a compliment.

One of the problems with bullshit is that at some point you actually have to govern and that takes actual boring bureaucratic effort. Saying whatever you want might sound appealing, though it becomes gobbledygook pretty quickly, but presidents still need to achieve real results for it to mean anything and that requires support based on different kinds of appeals. Hoping to elect a messiah is deeply foolish since no one can govern only by sheer force of bull and people who are willing to try are likely to be the least suitable individuals imaginable for the presidency of world superpower.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:37 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


If only I had a penguin: I agree that's better than current system but it seems more rigid than necessary here. After all, speakers here are sometimes addressing something the opponent brought up, and answering moderator in the same time slot. In theory, the goal here is not to see who wins but to let speakers explain their position to the electorate as efficiently as possible. Constraints on student debaters are totally different: they're not after all speaking to a 100 million strong audience at all levels of knowledge, unerstanding, etc, and they are usually not covering future, past and present policies and events of a vast country, as well as personal history of themselves and their opponents over past 40 years or so. I think letting them overshoot time adds fluidity to the conversation and should be totally fine as long as speakers know that full audience is aware of how much and for which topic they went overtime.

It just seems like a more natural and easy system than we have and doesn't inherently give advantage to either side.
posted by rainy at 9:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trek Against Trump

I just noticed that all of the surviving principal cast of the reboot series (Pine, Quinto, Urban, Pegg, Saldana, Cho) have signed on. Logically, my political agreement with the actors should not affect my artistic appreciation of the movies. But I'm no Vulcan, and now I like the Kelvin timeline movies slightly more than I did before.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Two of them are good, and one of them has a plot!
posted by Artw at 9:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Ah, I see we've reached the weekly edition of "Why Do the Democrats All Suck?"

Pretty sure in the UK this game is called "Why Does the Labour Party All Suck?" And I'm pretty sure it happens everywhere there are politicians, because expecting politicians to be perfect vessels for the Saving of The World is not going to end well.

And then every once in a while a politician comes along that everyone agrees doesn't suck, and then either they are defeated, in which case they get to go on being perfect for ever and ever, The One True Candidate that would have fixed everything, dammit. (See Bernie Sanders.) Or they are elected, in which cause everyone eventually decides Actually They Sucked The Whole Time because they aren't able to save the world after all. (See Obama.)

I think it's a far better idea to accept that candidates are flawed individuals who all have some combination of strengths and weaknesses and to make a decision about what your political priorities are and then work towards electing the person who is most likely to bring those things about, but I'm sure it'd far more fun to complain about how much people suck.
posted by threeturtles at 10:03 PM on September 29, 2016 [57 favorites]


Not sure the Labour Party comparison really holds, since the Democrats are not currently on fire, sinking and exploding simultaneously.
posted by Artw at 10:08 PM on September 29, 2016 [31 favorites]


A week ago democrats were polling in dead heat with Donald J. Trump tho.
posted by rainy at 10:10 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Australia's Labor Party ran Peter Garrett from Midnight Oil and somehow managed to turn him from a super-charismatic frontman to a bloodless party functionary.

I thought UK Labor was going great thanks to Corbyn.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 10:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's not like it's difficult to think of ways to get the candidates to keep to time, not interrupt, etc. Shutting off mic, LEDs, sure. People have thought of (and implemented) these things.

Stick 'em on the Jeopardy set and let Alex Trebeck at them. "I'll take Foreign affairs for $1000, Alex"...
posted by mikelieman at 10:21 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'd pay cash money to see Donnie's face during the 30 seconds of Think! music...
posted by mikelieman at 10:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Is there a chance that Gary Johnson quits at the end of Oct and endorses Hillary? Or just quits?
posted by rainy at 10:26 PM on September 29, 2016


He'll quit, but then when they ask him which candidate he's going to vote for he won't be able to think of one.
posted by mmoncur at 10:35 PM on September 29, 2016 [58 favorites]


Vote Aleppo / Fox 2016!
posted by rainy at 10:42 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


It is so sad that "Aleppo" has become a local joke at the expense of a local unfunny-joke candidate when it is a city that is at very least twelve times older than the USA and right now is so afflicted that families sleep in the same room so that if an air strike or artillery bombardment hits them there will be no widowed adults or orphaned children.

The 18-month drag of the US campaign has ensured that the humanitarian catastrophe in Syria will continue into 2017, and probably much longer, given what's at stake there. Even then, it will be for Obama what Rwanda is for Bill Clinton.
posted by holgate at 10:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [57 favorites]


My wife was once in the same room as Bill Clinton. She didn't meet him, speak with him or even come within 30 feet of him, and even so she said she could pick up on the charisma he exuded.

In the summer of 1992, when I was 14 and about to enter 9th grade, I went to a Clinton rally in Westlake Park in downtown Seattle. I was near the stage, and when Bill Clinton got to the part of his stump speech about college, he looked me right in the eyes and I swear to god it was like being hit by lightning.
posted by palomar at 10:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [24 favorites]


The 18-month drag of the US campaign has ensured that the humanitarian catastrophe in Syria will continue into 2017

If you had told me five years ago that the USA would ever again provide weapons to Al Qaeda affiliates I would have been hornswoggled.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 10:56 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Syrian army is not a bunch of dudes with machetes. They have S-400 anti-air defense. There's a russian naval station, a lot of Russian nationals at the beginning of war. Assad has a lot of support among Alawite population and not only. Really nothing like Rwanda. It's a mess in the middle east in the same way as Iraq, Afghanistan and Palesitine are a mess. Plus the Russian base and nationals.
posted by rainy at 11:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


This is awesome, Colbert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mmy2eWHa-eg
posted by rainy at 11:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Most people, politicians included, don't know what to do when confronted with the prospect of shaking hands with a paralyzed person. But when Bill Clinton realized I couldn't shake his offered hand, he picked up my hand and kissed it instead without missing a beat. Very smooth.

(I went home and had my hand sanitized for my protection.)
posted by Soliloquy at 11:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [62 favorites]


Really nothing like Rwanda.

It's like Rwanda in the sense that it's become zero-sum territory. If there is a military victory in Syria, then it's basically pick one or more of redraw the borders, ethnic cleansing or genocide for the most obvious losers.
posted by holgate at 11:13 PM on September 29, 2016


Finally caught up (sorry to all the posts I skimmed over)! A few thoughts after catching up on the day's news:

1. Just realized, beyond the surface level idiocy of trying to earn extra brownie points for referring to Clinton as "Secretary" during the debate, this is also following months of public speeches where he's been referring to her as "Crooked Hillary" at every chance he gets.

2. For the Whitewater noobs: One crazy factoid that I hadn't noticed when history was happening in real time: The initial Whitewater attack dog, L. Jean Lewis, was later rewarded for her efforts by GWB with an appointment as Chief of Staff for the Pentagon Inspector General. Here, she was on the other end of government corruption investigations by thwarting off inquisitions about Halliburton's no-bid contracts.

3. Question to legal experts: If Trump's charity is found to be not certified, would that have any bearing on the pay-to-play allegations with the charity's donation to the Florida Attorney General?
posted by p3t3 at 11:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Stick 'em on the Jeopardy set and let Alex Trebeck at them.

Jeopardy!, pshaw. I've said, long before the current presidential campaign, that presidential candidates should be required to appear on Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?

I may be in the minority among American voters, but I do prefer my leaders to be smarter than the average fifth grader.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 11:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]


Elitist.
posted by um at 11:46 PM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


typical liberal elites thinking they are better than "average" fifth grader. fifth graders are not average!
posted by rainy at 11:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think Trump has some charisma, and good delivery of lines at times (which is a small thing but small things can be very important). But that's not the reason he's done so well in the campaign. Most of the reason is that he can attack people without seeming mean and he has a wide arsenal of how to attack people:

We could not possibly see things more differently. I never even was interested enough to watch his TV show. He's Sara Palin without the charm.
posted by bongo_x at 11:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


I've never seen his TV show, or anything of him before he won the nomination. I don't think he has charm at all (neither did Palin), he has some charisma and entertainer's touch, a not-bad communicator, at times. If he was more knowledgeable and had some empathy, he'd be a formidable politician. I couldn't bear watching Palin even for half a minute -- the stupidity at all levels was overwhelming, zero charm, but the line delivery was strangely similar to Trump. The similarity is that they can get totally bogged down in a sentence and then very quickly switch gears and smoothly transition into a new one without losing a beat.

The difference between them is that Palin is dumber, doesn't have the same knack for attacking people as I mentioned above, and has real conservative religious bona fides (albeit fundamentally fake if that makes sense), and Trump is more confident.

It makes a lot of sense that they became chummy. I'm really curious why she didn't become a surrogate. Maybe the campaign thought she is too risky? Maybe they did research and she's no longer beloved by evangelicals whatsoever? It's probably something else and something weird, and we'll find out eventually.
posted by rainy at 12:13 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm really curious why she didn't become a surrogate. Maybe the campaign thought she is too risky?

She seemed really unhinged at the speech where she endorsed Trump. Like unhinged even for Palin. It's scary if you're too unhinged for Donald Trump.
posted by Justinian at 12:21 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


I think she'd do just fine now, Trump has lowered the bar for "unhinged" quite a bit since then.
posted by mmoncur at 12:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


Maybe the campaign thought she is too risky?

The last thing I heard out of her was some rambling about a month ago on immigration. Maybe he tired of her incoherence. It also was around the time when the Trump campaign was getting new blood in management. The newcomers could have had a part in her diminishing role. Using phrases like "wishy-washy positions" & "massive disappointment" I am sure did not help things either.

Trump Offers Jaw Droppingly Dumb Reason Why Sarah Palin Wasn’t Invited To GOP Convention
Wall Street Journal
Aug 25, 2016
posted by lampshade at 12:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Let's not rule out the possibility that he's too sexist to want to have her as a main surrogate.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:31 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


He doesn't need another female surrogate--he already has McEnany, Pierson, Hughes, and Conway.
posted by xyzzy at 2:08 AM on September 30, 2016


Those are underlings. He'd have to treat Palin as an equal
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:11 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Here's Biden talking about tax.
More specifically about how insane it is for a presidential candidate to brag about not paying taxes.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:45 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


Johnny Wallflower: "I've almost forgotten that there is a Metafilter outside of the election threads.

Some of us are working really hard to provide a light counterpoint to this dreary election season. Come up for air once in a while ;)
"

Yeah, there's no way that "happy, fun" is going to appeal to me right now. I'd just start worrying that President Trump would ban puppies and baby ducks. I haven't watched a movie or TV show in a month now because I just can't enjoy them. November can't come fast enough.
posted by octothorpe at 3:48 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Just this guy, y'know: "Here's Biden talking about tax.
More specifically about how insane it is for a presidential candidate to brag about not paying taxes.
"

I love when Joe gets irate.
posted by octothorpe at 3:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


I wish Clinton would have said that during the debate. It might have been an actual "Surely this...." moment, as it would have gotten massive airtime afterwards.
posted by papercake at 3:57 AM on September 30, 2016


RE: Palin. He doesn't want anyone who will steal focus. She's too much a media creation and media craver like him.
posted by chris24 at 4:02 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I can't think about original Kirk w/o thinking of a story from somebody who went to McGill and knew somebody who went to school with Shatner, sat behind him, and observed that he had very large zits on the back of the neck.

And you see how this relates to the election is nah I got nothing.
posted by angrycat at 4:14 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


So the Republican nominee is tweeting at 5am (after tweeting through the night) to check out someone's sextape.

@realDonaldTrump: Did Crooked Hillary help disgusting (check out sex tape and past) Alicia M become a U.S. citizen so she could use her in the debate?

Way to prolong the story!
posted by chris24 at 4:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [34 favorites]


In the previous thread I asked around if anyone had experience with how Hillary does in Town Hall formats, and if this will be a good opportunity for her to show the side of her that combats the criticisms of her personality. I just read the link in this comment and I encourage anyone who feels as I do to read it.

Not only does it sound like she'll do great, but there is no way Trump will learn anything from the first debate to take to this. I'll be in Korea for the next debate so I unfortunately can't see it live, but I'm very much looking forward to it now!
posted by like_neon at 4:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


That is truly disgusting, chris24. Trump is such a scumbag.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:38 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


SETTING: SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE - THE TOWN HALL ONE

Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump have been answering questions for nearly an hour, each in their own signature style of answers and word salad nonsense, respectively. A young man, noticeably dressed down for the event wearing a red t-shirt and blue jeans, stands for his turn to speak. Trump is visibly surprised and alarmed at his presence.

YOUNG MAN: "Town hall's over, Donald. Sorry, folks."

TRUMP: "How did you get past my security outside?"

YOUNG MAN: "There's a matter we need to talk about."

TRUMP: "Yeah. Money, right? Well, forget it."

YOUNG MAN: "No. Not money." He speaks slowly and deliberately. "Gray's. Sports. Almanac."

TRUMP: "You heard him, folks. Town hall's over."

[SCENE]
posted by Servo5678 at 4:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]




Losing a debate to a woman seems have sent Trump off the deep end.
posted by octothorpe at 4:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [22 favorites]


New post debate poll of Florida.

Clinton 46
Trump 42
Johnson 7

Plus new polls in Mi and NH, both Clinton +7.
posted by chris24 at 4:55 AM on September 30, 2016 [27 favorites]


Trump on twitter: "Using Alicia M in the debate as a paragon of virtue just shows that Crooked Hillary suffers from BAD JUDGEMENT! "

Umm, does he not realize what's going on here? Clinton didn't use her as a Paragon of Virtue, she used her as an example of Trump mistreating women. Clinton isn't nominating Alicia M. for Secretary of State. He's doubling down on mistreatment of women by saying she somehow deserved it.

I really think nobody is managing his campaign at all and we're watching him implode right now.
posted by mmoncur at 4:56 AM on September 30, 2016 [72 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: Did Crooked Hillary help disgusting (check out sex tape and past) Alicia M become a U.S. citizen so she could use her in the debate?

Every time he does this I feel like my heart is being stabbed again. That there are people out there, that will be cheering their president for going after and showing that person (in this case bitch) who is the boss is just heartbreaking.

Trump is a horrible human being but the worst thing about him is being shown so bluntly just how many people out there in the world support being so horrible.
posted by Jalliah at 5:00 AM on September 30, 2016 [58 favorites]


I really think nobody is managing his campaign at all and we're watching him implode right now.

I think it's actually evidence of someone specific managing his campaign: Roger Ailes. He can't get his revenge on Gretchen Carlson or Megyn Kelly or any other accusers, so this is his chance to lash out at a beautiful woman and try and humiliate her, take her down a peg or two. It's not hard to imagine him and Trump spending the night popping uppers and washing them down with vodka, passing the phone back and forth to see what fresh hell they can come up with.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:01 AM on September 30, 2016 [26 favorites]


So this! His misogyny runs so so deep that when someone simply says "It's terrible to call a woman Miss Piggy" his instinct is to shout "She's a SLUT, I can call her whatever I want. And furthermore, YOU show bad judgement for defending a SLUT!"

I am so close to tears to think that 40% of the country thinks this man is fit for presidency.
posted by like_neon at 5:02 AM on September 30, 2016 [136 favorites]




That's funny, because there are a few minor "Sources within Trump's campaign say" articles out there, but right now, 90% of the negative articles about Trump begin with the words "Trump Says".
posted by mmoncur at 5:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [28 favorites]


Unfortunately Team Trump's sleaze tactics appear to be paying at least some dividends. During their 7 am news summary, NPR noted that reporters asked Clinton about her husband's affairs three times, with Clinton declining to comment each time (and, like, way to go, intrepid reporters, she's sure to change her mind the third time you asked.

By mentioning that they weren't going to mention it, Team Trump got the so-called "liberal media" to mention it for them, because it's "out there." Feh.
posted by Gelatin at 5:08 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]




I really think nobody is managing his campaign at all and we're watching him implode right now.

Sadly I'm not so sure that his current take isn't supported by at least some people in the campaign. He is saying exactly the things the right wing media is say and the exact things his supporters are saying. I just got reading an article about how his rally goers don't think his Miss Universe is a big deal and that the liberal media has it all wrong.

We've been told several times that he spends a lot of time reading media about himself and he a fan of alt right media. He has Briebart right in the room with him. He's saying what Briebart is posting.

My question is a chicken and egg one. Who is leading? Is Trump sayng what he wants and the media follows along or is it the other way around. Personally I think it's both. They're feeding off each other right now. Sometimes it's Trump but sometimes it seems that Trump suddenly starts bleating about stuff that appears in the media first.

If I had the time I'd look into tracking the relationship back and forth but that would pretty much be a full time job.
posted by Jalliah at 5:09 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, the source for most of these scandals is Trump's own goddamn mouth, or video footage of him doing and saying things. He'd done plenty to disqualify and incriminate himself all on his own.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:11 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


By mentioning that they weren't going to mention it, Team Trump got the so-called "liberal media" to mention it for them, because it's "out there." Feh.

The media are the only people more easily baited than Trump. It baffles me that he's seen as some kind of master manipulator for being able to generate free publicity and get the media to talk about what he wants them to; they're so easy to lead, they might as well have rings through their noses.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


FYI, Machado hasn't done porn and doesn't have a sex tape. Snopes
posted by chris24 at 5:24 AM on September 30, 2016 [49 favorites]


Feh. Pedantic fact-checking.
posted by farlukar at 5:29 AM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


All he cares about - all he appears to care about - is winning by manipulating people, and the 'truth' or 'facts' are secondary. Which sounds like an insult, but it's the only way to win in politics - by constantly maniuplating and twisting narratives and groups of people. It can be used so easily for progressive causes! ... If the Left wants to win, they need to seize the power of narratives, not rely on some base conception of 'facts'.

OK, first: All the ughs in the world to this. Just had to get that out of the way.

Second: I would say that what the Clinton campaign is doing now with Alicia Machado is indeed seizing the power of narrative, but doing so in conjunction with facts. As for me, that's my preferred methodology for winning, and I'm not sure why you're so insistent that we can only have FACTS or WINNING.

Truth matters, not everything is relative, and for godssake don't we understand yet that the ends don't always justify the means?
posted by alleycat01 at 5:43 AM on September 30, 2016 [30 favorites]


Pretty good trolling by that Luntz guy:
‏@FrankLuntz : Are online polls scientific?
posted by klarck at 5:47 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


We'll find out Kellyanne is gone around four or five this afternoon, I would almost put money on it.
posted by Tevin at 5:47 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's not hard to imagine him and Trump spending the night popping uppers and washing them down with vodka, passing the phone back and forth to see what fresh hell they can come up with.
According to recent accounts, all Ailes has been capable of is recounting political war stories and re-litigating the loss of Fox News to the point that Giuliani had to take over debate prep and get Ailes out of there. Trump already has an impressive record of maligning, abusing, and mistreating women; I see no reason whatsoever to attribute the most recent attacks to a slug whose fantasies probably include subjugating and humiliating slave women on a desert barge.
posted by xyzzy at 5:48 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


If I were a journalist I'd just spend the day calling Trump's evangelical supporters asking if they've seen Alicia Machado's sex tape (Twitter)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:48 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Well his latest Machado tweets are hitting news articles as we speak. I do have to say that his supporters are helping him so much as well. They're right on the ball with the she's 'a porno slut, Hilary has no judgement' messaging. Of course Donald is okay to do whatever he wants and not have his fitness questioned because emails, emails, emails.

They really and truly are convinced that going after Machado like this is a winning strategy and are cheering him on big time.

Trump has released this big wave of festering misogynist pus upon the world. It's scary.
posted by Jalliah at 5:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


This is a stark illustration of how fundamentally unserious, hypocritical, and downright vengeful modern religious conservatism is in this country. They're supporting a candidate, many if not most enthusiastically, who is exhorting voters to check out a fake sex tape. And they're doing it in opposition to a former Sunday school teacher. They won't be ashamed about it, obvs, and the NeverTrumpers and other conservatives will continue to defend them as honest and virtuous and sincere.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [70 favorites]


Is there anything anyone can do to support Alicia right now? She must be going through hell with the trolls and the media. I'm sure the Clinton team talked to her about what might happen, but that doesn't mean it's not pretty awful for her. I just want to thank her and make sure she's safe and happy.
posted by like_neon at 5:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [27 favorites]


I guess 3 AM tweets are a good way to distract everyone from Cuba, taxes and the foundation.
posted by maudlin at 5:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


(5AM tweets, actually)
posted by maudlin at 5:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sending 5AM tweets about fake sex tapes to baskets of deplorables in order to deflect criticism of being deplorable? SAD!
posted by localhuman at 5:56 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


Between 3:20 and 5:30am there were 4 tweets.
posted by chris24 at 5:56 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


So it looks like the second debate prep is going swimmingly for Donald. Totally focused.
posted by JoeZydeco at 5:57 AM on September 30, 2016 [21 favorites]


Between 3:20 and 5:30am there were 4 tweets.

You've got to have stamina.
posted by dis_integration at 5:57 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


Or amphetamines.
posted by chris24 at 5:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [35 favorites]


As an aside if anyone is feeling really down with the big blurg of sexism and misogyny happening right now I recommend watching the new show 'Pitch'. I just watched the second episode while reading this thread and it made me feel a whole lot better. Mostly it made me feel hope because this show is dealing with it head on and it's pretty awesome. Awesome to see these issues coming out in a mainstream show and it's about baseball! Also in the latest episode of Horror Story they used gaslighting as a minor plot point. "Don't you gaslight me!" I let out a 'woo' when I heard it.
posted by Jalliah at 5:59 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]




I'll tell you what: I used to feel somewhat guilty about my love of remaining in my liberal bubble. I lived in a rural midatlantic area for a while and hated it and the little bleeding heart voice in my head has always told me that really that's just because I'm actually a big hypocrite and I don't like people who are different from me, and that's bad and I should feel bad. Welp, I'm here to say that if you are supporting this literal monster, you are different from me and I don't like you and if I can help it I do not want to live amongst a critical mass of you. This isn't about whether we disagree about what the marginal tax rate should be or that you're Christian and I'm not. This is about basic human rights--not even the extended remix like health care and housing, but the really superduper basic shit like life and liberty and granting a baseline of dignity and respect to your fellow humans.

Liberal Bubble 4ever. For the sake of my own self-care and self-preservation.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:04 AM on September 30, 2016 [89 favorites]


Stick 'em on the Jeopardy set and let Alex Trebeck at them.

"What is Aleppo?"

"Correct for four hundred!"
posted by EarBucket at 6:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


Between 3:20 and 5:30am there were 4 tweets.

Is there seriously any questions about what Donny's Little Helpers are? He thinks he's still teetotal because he totes has a prescription for them from Dr. Feelgood and he neeeeds them to keep his svelt waistline, but dude is popping uppers like candy.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:09 AM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


And how much you wan to bet Donald has made plenty of "sex tapes" of his conquests?
posted by spitbull at 6:09 AM on September 30, 2016


I've been on the "he's a speed freak" train for months!
posted by spitbull at 6:10 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


And how much you wan to bet Donald has made plenty of "sex tapes" of his conquests?

Donald really just likes to watch.
posted by PenDevil at 6:12 AM on September 30, 2016


I've been on the "he's a speed freak" train for months!

*fist bump* Me too. It's the Occam's Razor that explains Trump's Razor.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:14 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]




That's probably why he's so into Putin - he's hooked up with the post-war Pervitin stash that the Red Army brought back from Berlin.

The best Nazi drugs! The best!
posted by Devonian at 6:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


crooked hillary was wrong, what i did before was not sexist

[cracks fingers]

now let me REALLY show you sexist
posted by Tevin at 6:19 AM on September 30, 2016 [37 favorites]


*fist bump* Me too. It's the Occam's Razor that explains Trump's Razor.

I haven't been on that train. The train is getting closer to picking me up though. One of the main things keeping me from jump on board is the lack of people who have had contact with him saying anything about it. Or any campaign leaks. I suppose he could be super good at keeping it secret, but someone must have seen something and some time?

I dunno. It would explain a lot.
posted by Jalliah at 6:21 AM on September 30, 2016


Direct link To 538's latest. (What is with you people linking to tweets?)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:22 AM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


The more he doubles and triples down on Machado and how right he feels he was to denigrate her in the first place, the more sure I am that one of his own priorities at the next debate will be to "set the record straight" about her, and quadruple down with it. Especially since the more people retweet and call attention to it, the more he thinks his argument is winning.

He's exclusively talking to people who won't talk back to him (Hannity and other friendly media) or that he doesn't have to hear when they do (Twitter) - playing to his crowd and getting positive feedback for it. If the first person to pop this next hate bubble has to be Hillary on national TV with everyone watching, well, I for one am totally cool with it.
posted by Mchelly at 6:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]




CHT- at this point I personally am trying to give 538 fewer page views because their model is now so swingy as to be basically hysterical
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:26 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


One of the main things keeping me from jump on board is the lack of people who have had contact with him saying anything about it.

He hides the things he's ashamed of. He does his hair himself and won't let anyone else see; he's always wearing a suit jacket. His "high energy" and virility are so central to his fucked up sense of self that having his chemical dependency exposed would result in intolerable narcissistic injury.

I don't doubt his pills are as secret as his hair routine.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:28 AM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


@KagroX :
He totally didn't make tapes of models he invited into his specially-equipped spare bikini changing rooms at Perv-a-Lago. So that's good.

He wired Perv-a-Lago to surveil the phones in every room, and set aside one special room for models to change bikinis in. But don't worry!


JFC..

So basically it's just one more thing that Hilary's campaign gets to chose from. It appears that there is so much they may have a hard time deciding what to use.
posted by Jalliah at 6:29 AM on September 30, 2016


But, seriously, if you know much about speed...that dude is on speed, and has been, for a long, long time.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:29 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


A moment of levity from The New Yorker
also, > (What is with you people linking to tweets?)
posted by farlukar at 6:30 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


Direct link To 538's latest. (What is with you people linking to tweets?

Because the interesting thing to me was his commentary not the map.
posted by chris24 at 6:30 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I suppose he could be super good at keeping it secret, but someone must have seen something and some time?

He's an older dude, I'm sure he takes a few different sorts of pills. Who would notice? And there have been rumors. I mean, he has a doctor who is clearly not qualified to do anything but crack open an rx pad and not tell anyone what he writes on it if you comp him enough Buffet tickets. He brags that he only sleeps 4 hours a night. He's erratic, manic, shouty, and runs full bore with every bad idea that pops into his head.

Don't do drugs, kids. Especially speed. Speed turns you into an asshole.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:31 AM on September 30, 2016 [21 favorites]


If your livelihood depended on trump's continued success would you rat out the one fact that would surely destroy his candidacy?

Long term speed freaks with good captive doctors at their disposal can keep it quite discreet. Two pills a day, and if you're always speeding who can tell?

However his dose was seriously decreased at the debate.

His debate performance screamed "addict keeps it together for the job interview" to me.

The alternate theory is that he is high on the smell of his own gold-plated farts, that narcissism alone explains his constant manias and rages and obsessiveness.

Either way, the subject of his erratic behavior is his kryptonite and Lex Luthor just introduced it at the end of the debate in the form of Ms. Machado.

Read a comment elsewhere suggesting Hillary is hunting high and low for a soccer mom Trump has insulted for the next big debate reveal.
posted by spitbull at 6:31 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Being a Clinton oppo researcher must be so fulfilling. Too often you dig something up and it bounces off the wrong part of the news cycle, or the target hunkers down and waits it out, or it otherwise glances off harmlessly and you wonder why you bother. It must be a real joy to throw a bomb at someone and watch them poke at it for days on end.
posted by jackbishop at 6:33 AM on September 30, 2016 [36 favorites]


Don't do drugs, kids. Especially speed. Speed turns you into an asshole.

Speed shills.
posted by spitbull at 6:35 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Read a comment elsewhere suggesting Hillary is hunting high and low for a soccer mom Trump has insulted for the next big debate reveal.

Raise your hand if you've ever been personally victimized by Regina Geo... Donald Trump.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:35 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Maybe it's speed, maybe it isn't. There are those who whisper rumors of Ibogaine rearing its ugly head on the American political scene again.
posted by delfin at 6:36 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


if you believe something strongly you have a moral/personal duty to say that thing as often and as loudly as possible.

Thus, the Timecube guy.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:36 AM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


it's not 'bullying' to say what you believe as loudly and as pointedly as possible.

Thus, the Holocaust.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:37 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


I'll stipulate to "addictive stimulant drug." "Speed" is shorthand.

You can't hide that shit forever though. Most Americans have seen addiction up close and personal at some point.

Howard Dean on TV right now maintaining his cocaine argument in the face of whithering media faux disgust.

I could accept coke as the answer except that's much harder to disguise and illegal. My money is on a "legal" medical habit.
posted by spitbull at 6:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


VOICEOVER: It's 3am and and your children are safe and asleep. But there's a phone in the White House and it's tweeting. Something's happening in the world. Your vote will decide who will send that tweet; whether it's someone who already knows how to tell a woman to lose weight, someone who knows the best words, someone knows how the system is rigged. It's 3am and and your children are safe and asleep, who do you want sending that tweet?
posted by peeedro at 6:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]




I found this interesting...

The Week: Donald Trump's autocratic infrastructure nationalism
one theme he has consistently stuck to is that he'll Make America Great Again by rebuilding its allegedly crumbling infrastructure. During the first presidential debate, he once again dissed America's roads, bridges, and airports, noting that when "you come into LAX or LaGuardia or JFK…. from Dubai, Qatar, and China," it seems like you've come to a "Third World country."

But the countries Trump is praising as models for a better America are all autocracies that have made a hash of things.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


His debate performance screamed "addict keeps it together for the job interview" to me.

So you're saying that the monday debate performance was just a presidential version of this?
posted by peeedro at 6:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Howard Dean on TV right now maintaining his cocaine argument in the face of whithering media faux disgust.

They're just mad because they wish they were allowed to say it themselves. Someone needs to conjecture a list of antibiotics Clinton is on so they can set up a false equivalence.
posted by jackbishop at 6:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ha peedro I was having a similar thought about "the 4am tweetstorm." Yeah that would be a hilarious ad. I think it's time for Hillary to use humorous mockery more in general. It worked great for her at the debate. And it makes him lash out like a freak. He cannot handle being laughed at, at all.

And the late night hour of his Machado tweets is now a subject for TV commentary. Ha ha.
posted by spitbull at 6:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Don't do drugs, kids. Especially speed. Speed turns you into an asshole.

In my perfect world, DARE gets resurrected fifteen years from now, only now it's focused on steering kids away from prescription opiate abuse and recreational amphetamines. The day they talk about speed, it's just a video montage of Ellen Burstyn grinding her teeth and freaking out in the red dress from Requiem, and Donald's first debate performance. The room is so horrified that there are angry parent phone calls to the superintendant later in the afternoon.
posted by Mayor West at 6:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump's Mirror strikes again. This is from Breitbart:
Donald Trump addressed a packed house at a rally in Bedford, New Hampshire Thursday afternoon where he blasted Hillary Clinton, whom he said is “there for only one reason: to protect her donors and take their money.”

“Hillary Clinton is an insider fighting only for herself and her donors. I’m an outsider fighting for you,” Trump said, contrasting himself with his rival for the presidency.

“Follow the money,” he continued, hitting on a theme that has been central to his criticism of Clinton.
That's a very interesting statement. Clinton is only running to protect her donors and make money. I don't think she has ever been accused of that before. It does bring up the question of why Donald is running, however, and I guarentee it isn't because he is fighting for the little guys out there.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:51 AM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


I also so wish and hope the HRC team has a comeback ready for the next time Donald riffs on how bad everything is in America that is something like "Tell us, Donald, is there anything you think is good about America right now?" or better "Why do you always run down America like that?"
posted by spitbull at 6:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Thus, the Holocaust.

surely, thus
posted by delfin at 6:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


And the late night hour of his Machado tweets is now a subject for TV commentary. Ha ha.

I didn't notice when I first looked but yeah so many headlines are 'overnight, early morning, 3 am tweetstorm'. ha ha indeed.

I'm betting he's sitting there all smug. "See the media they are covering my tweets. Sucess! I'm still winning."


(and okay I'm getting closer to jumping on the' speed freak' train now)
posted by Jalliah at 6:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Somebody very close to Hillary once said, "There's nothing wrong with America that can't be fixed by what's right with America." That's probably the best retort to Trump's doom and gloom.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:56 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


For the Hamilton fans: @chrislhayes: Tweet less; Sleep more
posted by Roommate at 6:57 AM on September 30, 2016 [32 favorites]



Yes I'm just saying might as well straight up call him unpatriotic to get the predictable freak out from him.
posted by spitbull at 6:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Chicago Tribune just endorsed Gary Johnson. This does not appear to be a hoax or a joke, and it is not April 1st.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


What is Chicago?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:00 AM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


All of them.
posted by spitbull at 7:01 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


tronc
posted by Tevin at 7:03 AM on September 30, 2016 [26 favorites]


@RealDonaldJTrump: There are no sources, they are just made up lies.

BuzzFeed: 6 Times Donald Trump Relied On Unnamed “Sources”
1. When an “extremely credible source” told him that President Obama’s birth certificate was a fraud.

6. When he first heard the news from “sources” that no charges would be brought against Hillary Clinton. "Like I said the system is totally rigged!"
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:05 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sadly I'm not so sure that his current take isn't supported by at least some people in the campaign. He is saying exactly the things the right wing media is say and the exact things his supporters are saying.

But Trump doesn't need his supporters right now. Trump's natural base of support seems to have a hard ceiling of about 40%. Trump needs to reach out beyond that core base of support, and I as much as the deplorables love it, I don't see Trump proving Clinton's point about him being a disgusting misogynist gaining him anyone new.

at this point I personally am trying to give 538 fewer page views because their model is now so swingy as to be basically hysterical

Today Sam Wang predicts Clinton winning 307 EVs, with a win probability of random drift 79%, Bayesian 87%.

This is a stark illustration of how fundamentally unserious, hypocritical, and downright vengeful modern religious conservatism is in this country. They're supporting a candidate, many if not most enthusiastically, who is exhorting voters to check out a fake sex tape. And they're doing it in opposition to a former Sunday school teacher.

It's just adorable that people, especially in the media, still imagine -- or pretend -- that conservative evangelical voters aligning according to their religious, as opposed to their political, beliefs.

In 1980, as today, Jimmy Carter was a genuine, born-again Southern Baptist evangelical Christian, who was so squeaky clean morally that the worst you could say about him was that he gave an interview with Playboy magazine confessing to looking at other women with lust and committing adultery in his heart. And the so-called "moral majority" deserted him in droves to elect Ronald Reagan.

That was 46 years ago.

It's high time the media started seeing whether people walk the walk, rather than just talk the talk, before presenting their views as representative or given in good faith. Their support of Donald Trump should unmask these hypocrites once and for all.
posted by Gelatin at 7:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [75 favorites]


The Tribune was a GOP paper except for its 2008 and 2012 endorsements. They endorsed W in 2004 so I guess maybe they see more than a few similarities between W and Johnson. Anyway it's not a surprise that they didn't endorse Clinton, and yet couldn't bring themselves to endorse Trump. Why not just keep your mouth shut, though (a lesson Johnson could learn too).
posted by dis_integration at 7:08 AM on September 30, 2016


John Podesta: I'm almost @realDonaldTrump's age, so get the urge to get up in the middle of the night, but impt safety tip: don't reach for your phone.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:08 AM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


I'm disgusted by Donald's misogyny but I'm straight up grossed out that he's thinking about sex tapes at 3 in the morning.
posted by like_neon at 7:10 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Charlie Pierce: This Thing Is Nowhere Near Over
Whether he's hired new speechwriters, or his staff simply has found the right dosage, El Caudillo del Mar-A-Lago is dealing out the real thing there—true, classic America First populism. The soaring skyscrapers and gleaming airliners of the mind. The New Jerusalem, which the earliest white American immigrants believed they had crossed the ocean to build on this continent, and which succeeding generations have worked and strived to build within themselves.

Is it all a charlatan's boast? Of course, it is. He can't do any of that stuff if he's also going to ram even more wealth upwards with his preposterous economic program. But he's selling a dream here, and not a con. Is it a narcotic vision bound to fall short of grubby reality? Of course it is. It almost always does. But, for the first time since I've been listening to him, Trump has stumbled into a rich vein of American political history and a rich vein of American political bunkum, both of which have sustained the other ever since the nation was founded.
[...]
Of course, there is a dark side of this brand of populism. All of these golden opportunities are kept from good yeoman America by shadowy forces beyond their control. Of course, it would be absurd for Donald Trump to go all gnomes-of-Zurich anti-Semite on the country. (Besides, he can subcontract that job to his lovely social media schultzstaffel.) But to hear him talk about the "collusion" between the "special interests" and the "corrupt media executives" is to hear echoes of the shiny boots on cobblestones without the inconvenient armbands. He will play that card as readily as he will talk about the new American steel in the spine of the country. This is why he remains the most dangerous presidential candidate of my lifetime.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:12 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


rebent: He finished his answer by saying that it is really, really easy for small groups of people to make a difference. He said that you and 25 of your friends can go downtown and join the party and then suddenly you ARE the local party branch. And your local branch has a national voice. This is what happened with the tea party. If sanders' supporters wanted, they could drastically change the democratic party over the next 10-15 years.

From waay back in April 2016:
While even Bernie Sanders is starting to admit that his chance of winning the Democratic nomination is exceedingly slim, some of his former staff and volunteers have formed a political action committee dedicated to giving the senator “the ability to make real change from the White House.”

Brand New Congress ... is looking ahead to the 2018 midterm elections to “replace Congress all at once” with lawmakers who agree with the Vermont independent’s policy positions. The PAC won’t be able to fully accomplish that goal in 2018, however, since just 468 of the 535 lawmakers in the House and Senate will be up for re-election.

A timeline on the PAC’s website says that it plans to form local search committees to recruit organizers and candidates who are new to politics. (Sanders, for his part, has served in Congress for 26 years.) The PAC says it will codify various progressive policies in a platform that its slate of candidates must support.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:13 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


That was 46 years ago.

Give or take a decade.
posted by octothorpe at 7:17 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


WaPo: Before 6 a.m., Donald Trump proved Hillary Clinton’s point about his temperament
While you were probably still sleeping, the 2016 Republican presidential nominee encouraged all of us to check out a "sex tape" and offered a baseless conspiracy theory about his opponent helping the woman from the alleged sex tape get citizenship so she could take him down.

And in doing so, Donald Trump did everything Hillary Clinton could have hoped he would, drawing out a now-week-long story about Alicia Machado, making things up and — above all — reinforcing all those very real questions about whether he has the temperament to be president.
They have the 3 tweets. Besides "check out the sex tape" which is just mind-boggling, he also accuses Clinton of BAD JUDGEMENT for using Machado as a "paragon of virtue." I am...well...baffled. I can't connect the dots in my mind between Clinton pointing out that Trump called her names and made a big deal about her weight and Trump saying that means Clinton thinks Machado is a paragon of virtue. Is there a link there that I am missing? Are we only supposed to be concerned with women who are virtuous? I mean I'm not even going to get into the question of Ms. Machado's virtue then and now, I don't care, but I do think it is weird that Trump cares so much. I guess in his mind he gets to name call any woman that isn't perfect. Which is exactly why he thinks he can say nasty things about Rosie O'Donnell and we will all be on his side.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [31 favorites]






Howard Dean on TV right now maintaining his cocaine argument in the face of whithering media faux disgust.

I could accept coke as the answer except that's much harder to disguise and illegal. My money is on a "legal" medical habit.


Which is why I question Dean's tactic. I can just see the media blowing off a future revelation with, "See, it wasn't cocaine, it was legally prescribed amphetamines all along, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯".
posted by Gelatin at 7:22 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


As I said a few threads ago, Clinton is playing chess against someone playing flip-the-table.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Dude is STILL TWEETING.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


Can Deutsche Bank even call in Trump's loans? Or does he owe so much money that it's their problem, not his?
posted by whuppy at 7:26 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


a lungful of dragon: I'm no fan of Hillary Clinton, but how she deals with her private life is her own business and no one else's.

Why did Americans care so much about Bill Clinton cheating on his wife? (Quora question)
Asking from a European point of view, it seems the man was brought into a scandal which was disproportionate compared to the moral fault he committed. I'm not saying it wasn't wrong, it's just a private matter after all and it doesn't mean anything about his ability to rule the country.
When the independent probes of Clinton Administration cost nearly $80 million back in the 1990s, I remember a few news stories about how baffled many Europeans were about how much national noise there was on this, and I agreed with the European view.

Digging up old dirt on the Clintons now seems like a stretch, and when it comes from critics on the left, it makes me wonder if their views on birth control are closer to social conservatives. Do personal lives become public if it's about cheating spouses?
posted by filthy light thief at 7:26 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


Is there a link there that I am missing?

I have seen a lot of right-wing comments trying to say this as well. Their explanation (I only calmly asked one of them about this over Twitter) is that Hillary is partnering with someone with a very questionable background (ie this sex tape non story, the accusation of accessory to murder that was never charged), thus it shows Hillary's poor judgement

Obviously this is beyond stupid because

1) These accusations are false or grossly misrepresented and do not take away from the fact Trump said horrible things about this woman

2) Do they really want to play the game of who has better judgement based on who they associate themselves with?
posted by like_neon at 7:26 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


CNN: Donald Trump's last press conference was on July 27. So much for press accessibility. He's limited himself mostly to Fox News and social media for the past two months.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:28 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


The Daily Beast: GOP Blocks Probes Into Trump-Russia Ties
Privately, Republican congressional staff told The Daily Beast that Trump and his aides’ connections to Russian officials and businesses interests haven’t gone unnoticed and are concerning. And GOP lawmakers have reviewed Democrats’ written requests to the FBI that it investigate Trump before they were made public.

But the lawmakers in both chambers have declined to sign on to them. Republicans have no appetite to launch inquiries into their party’s presidential nominee, and they continue to believe the FBI flubbed its investigation into Clinton and her aides, who should have been charged with mishandling government secrets, the staffers said.

Instead Republican lawmakers appear far more interested in probing Hillary Clinton’s use of a private email server, nearly three months after the Justice Department declined to press charges against her or her aides. FBI Director James Comey has been called to testify to Congress three times about the email investigation, and Republicans have launched a separate inquiry into whether the former secretary of State committed perjury when she testified before Congress about her unorthodox communications system.
IOKIYAR
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:28 AM on September 30, 2016 [32 favorites]


They have the 3 tweets. Besides "check out the sex tape" which is just mind-boggling, he also accuses Clinton of BAD JUDGEMENT for using Machado as a "paragon of virtue." I am...well...baffled. I can't connect the dots in my mind between Clinton pointing out that Trump called her names and made a big deal about her weight and Trump saying that means Clinton thinks Machado is a paragon of virtue. Is there a link there that I am missing?

This is rarely known, previously only theoretical political strategy of double-down double-downing; at this point the links between things are so tortured that they either break reality or the candidate.
posted by nubs at 7:32 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump/Pence 2016: CHECK OUT THE SEX TAPE!

The bumper stickers write themselves now.
posted by spitbull at 7:34 AM on September 30, 2016 [40 favorites]


Perhaps Trump thinks retweets count as endorsements.
posted by drezdn at 7:36 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump/Pence 2016: CHECK OUT THE SEX TAPE!

I cannot describe the depths of my hate for you right now, spitbull.
posted by Etrigan at 7:36 AM on September 30, 2016 [35 favorites]


WaPo: The Daily 202: This week was full of reality checks for Trump’s campaign
-- The overall sentiment of media coverage, which had been trending more positive for Trump ahead of the debate, has shifted back to become predominantly negative. The GOP nominee has received three times the amount of coverage that Clinton has since Monday, political scientist John Sides tabulates on his Monkey Cage blog. “Clinton’s coverage since the debate has been much more positive than Trump’s and more positive than she has typically received. Indeed, this has been the most positive coverage she’s received since June.”[...]

-- Danger, Will Robinson: The format for the second debate could be terrible for Trump. All of the aforementioned acrobatics distract from the fact that the next debate is only ten days away. And it’s unclear whether Trump is willing to acknowledge the sheer amount of prep work he must do to rectify his performance before then.

Paul Waldman on Plum Line argues that the town-hall style of the second debate more naturally plays into Clinton’s strengths: “The questions will be asked by ordinary citizens, and are much less predictable than those asked by a moderator or panel: While they’re almost always substantive, they often raise issues that haven’t been discussed much in the campaign, and can do so from unusual angles. That favors a candidate whose understanding of policy is not only deep but broad.” Moreover, Trump is not accustomed to the town-hall style and it could be awkward if he’s chomping at the bit to retaliate against Clinton and hit harder than he did the first time. Overcompensation seems inevitable. “Just picture the cameras picking up the shocked and disgusted faces of women as he goes after Hillary for Bill’s infidelity, or digs in on his Machado attack,” Waldman writes.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:37 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's ironic that Ailes literally invented the town hall for Nixon and his format will undoubtedly cause Trump to self-immolate in a volcano of cheese dust and verbal diarrhea.
posted by xyzzy at 7:39 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


At this point, if Hillary wins, the right is going to launch an investigation into how Clinton let Trump win the nomination.
posted by drezdn at 7:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [65 favorites]


'...something like "Tell us, Donald, is there anything you think is good about America right now?" or better "Why do you always run down America like that?"'

This is just the sort of question that comes up in those town halls. Bet dollars to donuts you'll hear it next week.
posted by klarck at 7:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


IOKIYAR is there nothing you can't excuse?

Will it take something like evidence that Trump is leaking his intelligence briefings to Putin to get the Republican party to repudiate him?
posted by vuron at 7:44 AM on September 30, 2016


RE: Palin. He doesn't want anyone who will steal focus. She's too much a media creation and media craver like him.
posted by chris24 at 7:02 AM on September 30

I think that is probably the reason however there are two other possible reasons.

1.) Sarah Palin might not have wanted to work for Trump for free as he seems to expect most of his people to do. I know she loves speaking to crowds but she may have decided it wasn't worth the effort and the time away from her family.

2) She had to leave the campaign trail when her husband got into a snowmobile accident-- serious enough to be hospitalized. Then she herself fell and hit her head reportedly while hiking. There are rumors of heavy drinking. She might not have wanted to face the press.


At this point, if Hillary wins, the right is going to launch an investigation into how Clinton let Trump win the nomination.

posted by drezdn at 10:40 AM on September 30

I actually guffawed. Stop making this...so entertaining. I need to get some work done!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:47 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


MotherJones: Trump's Huge Conflict of Interest With a Big Foreign Bank Keeps Getting Worse
Deutsche Bank is in crisis. It holds more than $300 million in Trump's debt. That's a problem
The potential conflicts of interest are scary.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:48 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


Mrs. Betty Bowers: "Chicago Tribune endorses Gary Johnson, a candidate who thinks Chicago is in . . . well, he's not exactly sure."
posted by dnash at 7:51 AM on September 30, 2016 [20 favorites]


SHIMMY IF YOU'RE WITH HER
posted by lydhre at 7:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [31 favorites]


Great job, tronc!
posted by drezdn at 7:53 AM on September 30, 2016


IOKIYAR is there nothing you can't excuse?

Excuse? When the Bush administration got caught torturing prisoners, Republicans began defending the practice, a ten-plus year history of shame that continues with Trump endorsing it.
posted by Gelatin at 7:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump/Pence 2016: CHECK OUT THE SEX TAPE!

It's 2016. The memes have become sentient and are running for office. May god have mercy on our souls.
posted by phunniemee at 7:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]



At this point, if Hillary wins, the right is going to launch an investigation into how Clinton let Trump win the nomination.


"I have a feeling I'll get blamed for everything!"

"Why not?"

"Yeah, why not."
posted by zutalors! at 7:55 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


Greg Sargent: Trump’s ‘disgusting’ tweet about Alicia Machado got one thing right. It isn’t what he thinks.
What Trump’s tweet really says is that Machado’s effort to secure the vote for herself is suspect, because Clinton may have helped smooth that process, to Clinton’s own benefit. This is a version of the longtime charge that Democrats only want to create a path to citizenship for Latino immigrants in order to pad the voter rolls in their favor, and surely this will thrill Trumpist voters who are very upset about the ways the country is rigged in favor of various minority groups.

But the merits of that argument aside, it is politically awful for Trump — given his need to expand his appeal — to be questioning this effort at political integration by a former Latina beauty queen who is publicly urging more Latinos to participate in the election and is publicly declaring her pride at becoming a U.S. citizen who can now exercise her right to vote.

The Clinton campaign has not yet commented. But it’s unclear how Clinton might have done this, if she had wanted to. Immigration attorney David Leopold tells me it’s conceivable but highly unlikely that the Clinton campaign encouraged Machado to become a citizen, but even so, that there’s no way any telephone calls, even if they had been made, would succeed in speeding the process. And in any case, Leopold notes, this process could take anywhere from five months to a year, so Clinton would have had to get involved many months ago. “It’s clear Trump has no idea how the citizenship process works,” Leopold says.

The ultimate irony of the whole tale is that the person who may have done the most to drive Machado to become a U.S. citizen and secure the vote for herself is one Donald J. Trump. And if the preliminary evidence proves to be right, Trump is driving a lot more Latinos to vote in this election, too.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [32 favorites]


I remember when Trump faffed about with the Khan stuff, and how unsettling it was to even his supporters. How did he learn nothing from that? He's such an ignorant sleazy asshole and I can't believe people can happily support him.
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:59 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


The Chicago Tribune just endorsed Gary Johnson. This does not appear to be a hoax or a joke, and it is not April 1st.

So did the Detroit News.
posted by still_wears_a_hat at 8:02 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Machado's response on Instagram.

English translation:

machadooficial "The Republican candidate and his campaign team are again generating attacks, insults and trying to revive slanders and false accusations about my life. All this in order to intimidate, humiliate me and desequilibrarme again. The attacks that have emerged are slanders and cheap lies generated with bad intentions, which have no foundation that have been spread by sensationalist media. This, of course, is not the first time that I face such a situation. through their hate campaign, the Republican candidate insists on discrediting and demoralize a woman, which is definitely one of the most terrifying features. with this, seeking to distract attention from their real problems and its inability to pretend to be the leader of this great country.
When was a young girl, the now candidate, humiliated me, he insulted me publicly disrespected me, as he usually did privately in the cruelest way. As this happened to me, it is clear through the years, that their actions and behavior have been repeated with other women for decades. Therefore, I will keep standing, sharing my story, my absolute support Mrs. Clinton on behalf of women, my sisters, aunts, grandmothers, cousins, friends and female community. My Latin and in general, I want to thank all the support, love and respect, my career, my person as a human being and my family. I became a citizen of this great country because my daughter was born here and because I wanted to exercise my rights, including voting.

I will continue standing firm in my lived experience as Miss Universe and you with me supporting me. I've been so pleased with many kind words, for so much love. I'm focusing on my busy career, in my work as mother and I will continue taking positive steps for the Latino community, I will continue as activist for women's rights and respect we deserve. I appreciate all your love and all your support again, thanks. "Thousands of blessings.

My personal take: she's awesome.
posted by Tevin at 8:03 AM on September 30, 2016 [93 favorites]


I just realized: this is the first time I can remember Trump exhorting his supporters to use an internet resource for anything other than checking Twitter. Meanwhile, Hilary actually converted her entire web presence into a fact-checker and policy-debriefer for the debates, and opened her remarks with "everything I'm going to say is explained in greater detail on my website, and I'll also have people dissecting all the horrible lies Donald is about to tell you."

So, their respective positions on technology:

Clinton / Kaine: Go read our in-depth policy positions
Trump / Pence: CHECK OUT THE SEX TAPE!
posted by Mayor West at 8:05 AM on September 30, 2016 [20 favorites]


I noticed something regarding the Donald Trump/Bill O'Reilly interview about Alice Machado. This is an excerpt (my own transcription):

She did not do well. She had a lot of difficulty. And, you know, they wanted to fire her. The company itself wanted to fire her. I saved her job ... I saved her job because I said that's going to be ruinous I did that with a number of young ladies, saved their jobs but the staff itself. Look what happened. Look what I get out of it. I get nothing.

Did he essentially say that he did this same thing to "a number of young ladies?" There are a lot of Alicia Machado's out there?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


How did he learn nothing from that?

Like the craziest part of this is that I'm thinking "Surely nothing he can do will be more distasteful than this" but if he's taught me anything it's don't overestimate him.
posted by DynamiteToast at 8:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


see three different ways of making sense of Trump's statements.

Another way is to assume Trump will always take the opportunity to call a woman a fat whore if he can.
posted by rtha at 8:07 AM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


Oh, Clinton is going ALL IN.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:07 AM on September 30, 2016 [24 favorites]


Oh, Clinton is going ALL IN.

Whoever decided that she needs to call him "Donald" every. Single. Time, well, that person deserves whatever award you give to political campaigners.
posted by Etrigan at 8:08 AM on September 30, 2016 [71 favorites]


rainy: This is awesome, Colbert

"Trump said the polls all said he won, while the polls all said Hillary won. So it's he-said, reality-said."

Best line.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:09 AM on September 30, 2016 [42 favorites]


One thing I've only recently realised. Trump thinks he's dealing with a D-list celebrity. How many former winners of Miss Universe, Miss World, or any other beauty contest can you name.

What he's actually dealing with is effectively a TV soap star. Joint star of something that ran for 121 episodes in 2015 on Spanish-language TV in Mexico - and star of all 37 episodes (story finished, not cancelled) of something on Spanish language TV in 2013 in America. Not the biggest star - but certainly higher than the D list.
posted by Francis at 8:10 AM on September 30, 2016 [23 favorites]



So, their respective positions on technology:

Clinton / Kaine: Go read our in-depth policy positions
Trump / Pence: CHECK OUT THE SEX TAPE!


Plus "my son is good at the cyber."
posted by drezdn at 8:10 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Please save one or two of the responses for around 10pm. I want 3am Donald meltdowns to happen every night.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:11 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


My money is on a "legal" medical habit.

Phentermine. Easy to get and if you use it incorrectly, it will give you very similar results to cocaine. Also, while it is a weight-loss drug, it won't help with weight loss if your hunger has more to do low blood sugar or anxiety or binge-eating.

I speak from personal experience.
posted by asteria at 8:11 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


@HillaryClinton: While Donald continues day 5 of his Machado meltdown, we'll be in Florida talking about national service. You'll want to watch.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:13 AM on September 30, 2016 [31 favorites]


America: Where the guy who defended his current wife's nude modeling and ogled a twelve-year-old (and later watched her sex tape) is AGHAST, AGHAST I tell you, that his opponent associates with a woman who, er, didn't actually have a sex tape but watch it anyway.
posted by delfin at 8:13 AM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


@dandrezner: It's probably a coincidence that the people Trump persists in attacking -- Judge Curiel, the Khan family, Ms. Machado -- are minorities
posted by chris24


I think that's the key, actually. We're all thinking, what a maroon, why won't he just drop these ridiculous vendettas to get past them quicker? But he doesn't want to. The message isn't Curiel, Khan, Machado specifically, it's "I'll attack minorities for you" generally.
posted by ctmf at 8:14 AM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


Why Donald Trump tweets late at night (and very early in the morning):
The election is in less than 40 days, and the trailing candidate is still railing about something that his opponent explicitly and strategically wanted to distract him with. Hillary Clinton wanted to show that he could be baited into tweeting, so she baited him, and he is tweeting. It's sort of amazing.
...
Trump is a Twitter addict and a night owl. (Editor's note: Same.) He's been tweeting less recently than he did earlier in the campaign, which makes Friday morning's eruption all the more noticeable. But he doesn't tweet late at night because he's mad, he tweets late at night because he tweets late at night. Because he had something he wanted to say right at that minute and so he said it, instead of, say, going to sleep (or going back to sleep).

And that, of course, was Clinton's entire point.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:15 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


Josh Gerstein: Trump deposition video set for release
A video of Donald Trump testifying under oath about his provocative rhetoric about Mexicans and other Latinos is set to go public as soon as Friday, drawing new attention to those comments just weeks before voters cast their ballots in the presidential race.

Trump gave the testimony in June at a law office in Washington in connection with one of two lawsuits he filed last year after prominent chefs reacted to the controversy over his remarks by pulling out of plans to open restaurants at his new D.C. hotel.

D.C. Superior Court Judge Brian Holeman said in an order issued Thursday evening that fears the testimony might show up in campaign commercials were no basis to keep the public from seeing the video.

"This Court finds that Plaintiff has not demonstrated that any subject video deposition contains scandalous, libelous, or other unduly prejudicial material warranting denial of media access," Holeman wrote. "The public shall not be held captive by the suggested eventuality of partisan editing in a manner unfavorable to Plaintiff or the deponents."'
popcorn.gif
posted by zombieflanders at 8:16 AM on September 30, 2016 [67 favorites]


Guaranteed 40% of the vote.
posted by Artw at 8:16 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Phentermine. Easy to get...

... in MEXICO. Think about it, he flies down on a whim, has a low energy press conference with the Presidente, then flies back to Arizona and has a balls crazy rally. It's been a non-stop party ever since. The trip down to Mexico was to re-up on his supply of black market phentermine.
posted by peeedro at 8:17 AM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


This whole thread is amazing

For posterity:

What kind of man stays up all night to smear a woman with lies and conspiracy theories?

Alicia deserves praise for courageously standing up to Trump's attacks. And he has the gall to blame her—and say he "helped"?

When something gets under Donald's thin skin, he lashes out and can't let go. This is dangerous for a president.

Trump obsessively bullies Rosie O'Donnell—an accomplished actor. He insulted Kim Kardashian for her weight—when she was pregnant. Pathetic.

We've heard Donald's insults for years, and his policies reflect this disregard—even contempt—for women.

Trump on equal pay: "Do as good a job" as men.
Abortion? Should be "punished."
Pregnancy? An "inconvenience."
Wives working? "Dangerous."

While Donald continues day 5 of his Machado meltdown, we'll be in Florida talking about national service. You'll want to watch.

BOOM
posted by like_neon at 8:17 AM on September 30, 2016 [60 favorites]


> The trip down to Mexico was to re-up on his supply of black market phentermine.

Too stupid to believe. Trump's Mirror says .. well, probably true, then.
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


The election is in less than 40 days, and the trailing candidate is still railing about something that his opponent explicitly and strategically wanted to distract him with. Hillary Clinton wanted to show that he could be baited into tweeting, so she baited him, and he is tweeting. It's sort of amazing.

CLINTON: So a man who can be provoked by a tweet should not have his fingers anywhere near the nuclear codes, as far as I think anyone with any sense about this should be concerned.

TRUMP: That line’s getting a little bit old, I must say. I would like to...

CLINTON: It’s a good one, though. It well describes the problem.

(LAUGHTER)

TRUMP: It’s not an accurate one at all. It’s not an accurate one.

[Title screen: THE GANG GETS PROVOKED]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:19 AM on September 30, 2016 [35 favorites]




Also, while it is a weight-loss drug, it won't help with weight loss if your hunger has more to do low blood sugar or anxiety or binge-eating.

Or the gnawing emptiness that can only be sated with the vital essences of--

Sorry, what were we talking about?
posted by Mayor West at 8:20 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


The trip down to Mexico was to re-up on his supply of black market phentermine.

Psh, nah. We've seen the man's doctor. He's got 'pill mill' written all over him. Trump does not need to go to Mexico to get knockoff quasi-legal speed, assuming these rumors have any basis.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:21 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


Seriously, if Trump can't afford to get his illegal pills at home, he's even less rich than we think he is.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


Or the gnawing emptiness that can only be sated with the vital essences of--

Frenzied Coldblood, I presume.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:24 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump Poetry

Travel

I just left Detroit and
I just left Philadelphia and
I just –
you know,
you’ve seen me,
I been all over the place.
You decided to stay home,
and that’s OK.
But I will tell you
I’ve been all over

posted by anastasiav at 8:25 AM on September 30, 2016 [25 favorites]


... in MEXICO. Think about it, he flies down on a whim, has a low energy press conference with the Presidente, then flies back to Arizona and has a balls crazy rally. It's been a non-stop party ever since. The trip down to Mexico was to re-up on his supply of black market phentermine.

So, now the election season is parodying first season episodes of The Venture Bros?
posted by Existential Dread at 8:25 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


roomthreeseventeen: Oh, Clinton is going ALL IN.

@HillaryClinton: To Donald, women like Alicia are only as valuable as his personal opinion about their looks. (links to LA Times article: Trump wanted to fire women who weren't pretty enough, say employees at his California golf club, by Matt Pearce, Sept. 29, 2016)
When Trump did visit, the club’s managers went on alert. They scheduled the young, thin, pretty women on staff to work the clubhouse restaurant — because when Trump saw less-attractive women working at his club, according to court records, he wanted them fired.

"I had witnessed Donald Trump tell managers many times while he was visiting the club that restaurant hostesses were 'not pretty enough' and that they should be fired and replaced with more attractive women,” Hayley Strozier, who was director of catering at the club until 2008, said in a sworn declaration.
Pull quote and emphasis as in Hillary's tweet.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:26 AM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


[Title screen: THE GANG GETS PROVOKED]

Credits, music

INT PADDY'S PUB, THE GANG IN BOOTH, HUDDLED OVER PHONES

CHARLIE [LOOKS UP]: Remember when Mac gained all that weight?

FRANK: Now that was a real problem. Didn't he try to make a sex tape?
posted by mwhybark at 8:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Or the gnawing emptiness that can only be sated with the vital essences of--

I do not avoid Donald Trump, sir... but I do deny him my essence.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


rp: Thank you, Joe.

Joe Biden: Donald Trump is painfully uninformed (Vice President Joe Biden offered his thoughts on the first presidential debate while speaking in Drexel, Philadelphia. 31 minutes)

LOLOLOLOL - when I first clicked that link, the ad was "It's Time to End the Divide" - Taking a Stand, by Koch Industries
We want to have an open conversation about removing barriers to opportunity and progress. Our aim is to replace America’s two-tiered, winner-take-all system with one free and open society where all can win.
Oooh, are you saying deregulation? Or are you really talking about expanding the two-party system? Are you not happy with the libertarian and conservative think tanks and campaigns you heavily fund?
posted by filthy light thief at 8:30 AM on September 30, 2016


If I'm reading the story correctly, the transcripts have been released:

the videos remained inaccessible because they were filed directly with judge's chambers and the court's docketing system doesn't allow access to exhibits like videos.

Transcripts of the testimony in the suit Trump filed against companies connected with restaurateur Geoffrey Zakarian have already been made public.

posted by nubs at 8:31 AM on September 30, 2016




I don't think Hillary has that kind of Transluminiscent Aetiology.

When I start my progressive blackened death metal band, Transluminescent Aetiology will be the name of our debut album.
posted by infinitywaltz at 8:32 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


I wonder what the GOP congresscritters are talking about this morning.
posted by Slackermagee at 8:35 AM on September 30, 2016


Rolling Stone: If you were trying to run a losing campaign, wouldn't it look just like Trump's?: But here's the thing. Let's say you were trying to lose an election for president, lose it as spectacularly as possible, lose it so badly you destroyed your reputation forever. Wouldn't you do pretty much everything Donald Trump has done over the past 18 months – up to and including his meltdown on Twitter in the wee hours of Friday morning? Just look at this (not even close to comprehensive) list.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:37 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Does anyone know anything about this? Have the full transcripts been released or will this video have previously unreleased testimony?

Transcipt, here (pdf)

posted by Mister Bijou at 8:38 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Did he essentially say that he did this same thing to "a number of young ladies?" There are a lot of Alicia Machado's out there?

Why wouldn't there be?
posted by emjaybee at 8:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Crap, sorry, the one I linked to is a Trump U deposition, not the restaurant case.

GOD, THERE ARE SO MANY DEPOSITIONS
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


Tom Jacobs, Pacific Standard: Ingrained Sexism Helps Explain Why Evangelicals Support Trump
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


While I'd prefer if more Republicans would actually vote for Hillary because -1 Trump +1 Hillary represents a net increase of 2 I'm okay if Republicans leave the Presidential bubble blank or vote for someone completely irrelevant or write in JEB!
posted by vuron at 8:42 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


Wait. Am I supposed to hate Alicia Machado for gaining weight so she's not sexually attractive, or am I supposed to hate her because she was sexy enough for someone to make a sex tape with her?

I'm confused.
posted by cooker girl at 8:43 AM on September 30, 2016 [47 favorites]


"Well, if everybody didn't vote, that would be a pretty powerful political statement, wouldn't it?"

Wtf Jeb!, you were supposed to be the smart one.
posted by dis_integration at 8:44 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


JOOMBA LA BOOSHERS
posted by cooker girl at 8:45 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


Wtf Jeb!, you were supposed to be the smart one.

He is, but think what that's being compared to.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


The (Not So) Mighty Boosh
posted by zombieflanders at 8:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I just love "Machado Meltdown."

Can't wait for Trump to prove it even more.
posted by chris24 at 8:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


please clap don't vote
posted by tonycpsu at 8:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [22 favorites]




So, it's Friday. Let's take a look at All The Things that are lined up for Monday like a row of beautiful ducks:

- #machadomeltdown is not going anywhere, I think Donald's got at least a few more days left in him. How long did his fixation on the Khans last?
- Videos of depositions with him saying horrible things, with a full weekend to come up with a fresh new ad starring Donald
- Trump Foundation closing in like a vice, especially after the news that they're not even properly registered in NYC
- The Cuba thing only just starting up, I mean Clinton hasn't even mentioned this one yet has she? It's crazy, there is so much shit on Donald there's spares!

Oh and 8 days til the town hall. I think today is a bit of a wash for prepping, he was up pretty late last night and needs to go down for a nap.
posted by like_neon at 8:51 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump spokesperson Healy Baumgardner quits the campaign.

looks like somebody's paycheque bounced and they want it to look like an act of principle
posted by mightygodking at 8:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


Did any of the Republican candidates in the primary do opposition research on Trump?
posted by drezdn at 8:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


There's a fun bit on page 99 of that transcript, which I'm just skimming. Seems Trump signed a letter of credit which was sent to the bank, claiming that the plaintiffs had to send him a balance of money for violating a lease, but the lease hadn't actually begun yet.

Q: Did you or anyone on your behalf have any conversations with the bank about drawing down on the letter of credit?
Trump: I don't know. I didn't, but I don't know.
[...]
Q: And at the time you signed this certification, you understand, don't you, that the CZ-National obligation to pay rent hadn't even begun to accrue yet?
Trump: I -- I don't understand anything. I, frankly, was just given this by my attorneys. They 1 said this is proper --
Trump's lawyer: Wait.
Q: Right.
Trump: Okay.
Q: I don't want to ask you what your attorneys told you.
Trump: I relied on my attorneys, okay, to put it differently.
Q: Okay. Good.
Trump: Now she's happy.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:53 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


That clip of Trump saying "I don't understand anything" is going to be in every commercial and it's gonna rule
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [53 favorites]


Just to reiterate (since it's so hard to keep track of the facts with so much bullshit flying around) there is no Alicia Machado sex tape. That had already been conclusively and publicly debunked well before Trump's tweetstorm this morning. The purported Alicia Machado sex tape that Trump refers to actually features an unrelated woman, a professional pornographic actress who just happens to look a little bit like Alicia Machado. There is no evidence that any genuine Alicia Machado sex tape—professionally produced or otherwise—exists, or that she has featured in pornography aside from a single topless photoshoot for Playboy.

Not that it would validate Trump's attack one bit if a sex tape did exist; I mean, nobody is trying to claim that Machado has never had sex—she's a mother for grief's sake—and it baffles me why it should matter whether or not there is videographic evidence of that. Donald Trump has had sex. Hillary Clinton has had sex. Your mom has had sex, and so has your dad. Most adult humans have. It's a totally normal and generally pretty fun thing to do, plus it's kinda central to the continued existence of our species, so I'm not sure why I'm supposed to have a problem with Machado also doing it.

I just want to make sure that we keep things straight, here. Trump is not just being grossly misogynistic and petty, he's also lying, and in a very transparent, amateurish way at that.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:55 AM on September 30, 2016 [100 favorites]


Wtf Jeb!, you were supposed to be the smart one.

Smart for a Bush.

Srsly, were Poppy and Babs cousins or something?
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:56 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Never mind Thiel, I want a reporter to ask Mike Pence if he has watched the sex tape yet.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:57 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


I got the impression that Jeb! and Rmoney had lots and lots of dirt on Trump but after Jeb! had a complete failure to launch in the primaries they decided to just go with the vague "He's not a good candidate" warnings.

I saw that as a repudiation of Marco and Cruz that they'd rather let Trump go ahead and win in order to get destroyed by Clinton in November with the idea that then they wouldn't have anyone in the way for 2020 when presumably one of them would run against an unpopular Hillary.

The willingness to turn on each other at the drop of a hat seems to be endemic in the Republican party.
posted by vuron at 9:00 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Machado posted on her instagram an hour ago. Google translate does a pretty good job.
posted by pixie at 9:01 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


This isn't good fodder for an attack ad but it's pretty funny:

Q: You also had a relationship with Serta?
Trump: Yes. Mattress.
Q: What was the -- was the nature of the relationship?
Trump: Mattresses.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:02 AM on September 30, 2016 [49 favorites]




Wait. Am I supposed to hate Alicia Machado for gaining weight so she's not sexually attractive, or am I supposed to hate her because she was sexy enough for someone to make a sex tape with her?

You're supposed to be in awe of Donald Trump's willingness to humiliate people whom he sees as enemies. Especially women and non-whites.
posted by argybarg at 9:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


So, it's Friday. Let's take a look at All The Things that are lined up for Monday like a row of beautiful ducks

Trump vs. Clinton on Saturday Night Live
posted by kirkaracha at 9:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


MetaFilter: CHECK OUT THE SEX TAPE!
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:06 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


That transcript
TL:DR: Trump the rent collector; details not so much
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:07 AM on September 30, 2016


I think the Occam's razor answer to "didn't any of the other R. candidates do oppo on Trump?" question is yeah, they did, but they knew these kinds of things weren't going to bother the majority of the votes they were seeking. I guess it's possible they're not as cynical about their base as I am but I'd point to how tone-deaf his allies like Gingrich are being about this whole thing. "Mistreating women? Who's that going to bother?"
posted by phearlez at 9:09 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Former Florida Governor Jeb Bush (R) has a bright idea for social change: don't vote for the presidency. Bush told reporters Thursday that he won't vote for Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton, and that it would send quite a statement if no one else did either, CNN reported.

Aaaaaand then the election gets thrown to the Republican-controlled House of Representatives.

Nice try, Jeb, but no sale.
posted by Gelatin at 9:10 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


It's not Machado in that video. It's a different woman. But so fucking what if it was her?

I can't begin to express my contempt for consumers of sex work who then shame the sex workers. There is zero chance Trump doesn't watch porn. None. Same for a huge portion of his base. Yet they think this matters. Fuck that entire mindset and fuck everyone who holds to it.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:10 AM on September 30, 2016 [85 favorites]


there is no Alicia Machado sex tape.

Pivot! It's not about the Alicia Dark porno now. It's now about some grainy night-vision footage from a "Big Brother"-type show she was on.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:11 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I just noticed that all the Trump emails I get are from info@bencarson.com and start with "Please find a special message from one of our advertisers, Trump Make America Great Again Committee." I wonder what he thinks about that spicy sex tape
posted by theodolite at 9:11 AM on September 30, 2016


Jeb Bush: "Well, if everybody didn't vote, that would be a pretty powerful political statement, wouldn't it?"

Yes, I agree 100%! Everyone shouldn't vote. Yep. ... No, don't get up, Jeb. You gotta keep an eye on the game, keep track of the score for me. I'm not going anywhere... Just gotta get some chocolate milk... at the store. ... Be right back! No big deal.
posted by Slothrop at 9:13 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


There is zero chance Trump doesn't watch porn. None.

He told Howard Stern he watched Paris Hilton's sex tape, didn't he?
posted by argybarg at 9:13 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Actual dialogue in angrycat therapy session
Angrycat: ever since the debate Monday, that feeling of black despair has been lifted
Shrink: we still have six weeks to go. I heard today that the Ohio county that has been the bellwether for every election ever is leaning Trump
Angrycat :(
posted by angrycat at 9:14 AM on September 30, 2016 [26 favorites]


Jeb Bush: "Well, if everybody didn't vote, that would be a pretty powerful political statement, wouldn't it?"

Wow, a powerful message. Yeah. I mean, 45% of the country didn't vote in the 2012 election, but I'm sure 10% of ballots having a blank spot on them will really move the needle.
posted by 0xFCAF at 9:15 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


pixie: Machado posted on her instagram an hour ago.

So, um, does being a speed freak eventually affect your vision? Because that picture is not a fat person. Obviously shaming anyone's body is wrong, but in this case she's simply...not what he called her.

(And if Trump thinks she is fat, what does he think of his own body? Good heavens, it must be terrible inside his head.)
posted by wenestvedt at 9:15 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


I think it might be time for a new therapist, angrycat.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:16 AM on September 30, 2016 [33 favorites]


info@bencarson.com

Mailmerged for your convencience from a database called easymarks.db.

There is nothing about today's GOP that is not, when you drill all the way down, a direct marketing scam.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:16 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


there is no Alicia Machado sex tape. That had already been conclusively and publicly debunked well before Trump's tweetstorm this morning. The purported Alicia Machado sex tape that Trump refers to actually features an unrelated woman, a professional pornographic actress who just happens to look a little bit like Alicia Machado.

But did they check the kerning?
posted by Gelatin at 9:16 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Another historic endorsement: The San Diego Union-Tribune. "This paper has not endorsed a Democrat for president in its 148-year history. But we endorse Clinton. She’s the safe choice for the U.S. and for the world, for Democrats and Republicans alike."
posted by Sublimity at 9:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [32 favorites]




"Alicia Dark" should be shooting a Trump/pageant themed video at this very moment if she wants to make a mint.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:19 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


At this point, Shelley Levene has tossed the Glengarry leads in the trashcan to make room for the Trump/Carson mailing list.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:20 AM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


ABC
Always
Be
Conning.
posted by drezdn at 9:21 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


If you were trying to run a losing campaign, wouldn't it look just like Trump's?

Honestly, I'm starting to wonder if this entire election cycle has just been an elaborate Brewster's Millions-esque gambit by Trump to bleed the Republican party dry of both cash and popular appeal.

The main problem with that line of thought, of course, is contemplating what he's going to take home as the big prize if he manages to pull it off.
posted by Mayor West at 9:22 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


VOICEOVER: It's 3am and and your children are safe and asleep.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of that. I hope the Clinton people are on it. It's the perfect ad!

Just replay the 3AM phone call ad, but at the end you see a Trump-shaped person from the back, furiously hard at work at a computer. Then we zoom in on the screen, and it's last night's Machado tweets.

Done! Get it in the can, start playing it everywhere this afternoon. It works whether you remember the "3AM phone call" ad and all its baggage, or not.
posted by gurple at 9:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


He told Howard Stern he watched Paris Hilton's sex tape, didn't he?

Yeah, and it's really gross. Seriously, prepare some brain bleach before reading:
During that same interview, Trump mocked J. Lo’s ass (“I really like J. Lo but that ass is…. I mean…”), and, while discussing the women that are, in his not-so-humble opinion, the most beautiful in the world, would say very creepy things about Paris Hilton and his own daughter, Ivanka.

“Now, somebody who a lot of people don’t give credit to but is in actuality very beautiful is Paris Hilton,” Trump told Stern. “I’ve known Paris Hilton from the time she’s 12, her parents are friends of mine, and the first time I saw her she walked into the room and I said, ‘Who the hell is that?’ At 12, I wasn’t interested… but she was beautiful.” He also admitted to watching Paris Hilton’s sex tape with Knauss, despite knowing her since the age of 12 and being very close friends with the Hilton Family.

But he saved his strangest comments for Ivanka, who was 21 at the time. “You know who’s one of the great beauties of the world—according to everybody—and I helped create her? Ivanka. My daughter, Ivanka. She’s 6 feet tall, she’s got the best body. She made a lot of money as a model—a tremendous amount,” he said. “She’s considered one of the most beautiful women. And she really is, she’s a great beauty.”
posted by zombieflanders at 9:24 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


Republicans have launched a separate inquiry into whether the former secretary of State committed perjury when she testified before Congress about her unorthodox communications system.

Does anyone know how likely this is to happen before Election Day? Usually I go looking for my own answers about these things, but there is mostly just a cloud of methane when I search for "Hillary email perjury hearing".

I feel bad for angrycat's shrink, who, as a person with a graduate degree, is probably also afraid of Trump and is losing the ability to be reassuring all day - but no, they're not supposed to engage with anxiety that way. In any case, this is an unprecedented election and I'm not paying attention to traditional bellwethers with no independent significance. The demographics are changed, and that's what this madness is all about, really.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:25 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


The purported Alicia Machado sex tape that Trump refers to actually features an unrelated woman, a professional pornographic actress who just happens to look a little bit like Alicia Machado.

Trump's Mirror is now in play, so I'm eagerly awaiting the next press release from Katrina Pierson in which she plays this off as a non-story, because clearly those latina women all look alike anyway.
posted by Mayor West at 9:25 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


At 12, I wasn’t interested… but she was beautiful.

I'm sure Eric Trump will always remember his father's courage in not being turned on by a 12-year-old girl.
posted by argybarg at 9:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [51 favorites]




There is zero doubt in my mind that if a sex tape featuring Ivanka were to turn up, Trump would eagerly watch it. He's really that disgusting.
posted by Roommate at 9:29 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Please save one or two of the responses for around 10pm.

I'm not sure Trump's campaign knows Team HRC can schedule tweets to troll him. Or that Hillary isn't checking Twitter every few minutes.
posted by holgate at 9:30 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump's behavior makes a lot more sense if you assume that his whole run has been about setting up Trump TV, rather than about winning the Presidency.

When people tell him you've got to shut up about X, you've got to stop saying things that offend Y group, someone who was trying to win the election would be like, OMG, you're right, I should totally do that so I can appeal to the swing voters because I need them in order to win. And then he would try to do that.

Someone whose main interest was in setting up his own TV channel after the election would say, I can't do that, it'd hurt me with my deplorable base. Because he needs them on his side after the election is over, to watch his network.

Everything else being equal, I don't think he would mind being elected President. I just think that it looks like he's not really trying because he is, in fact, not really trying: Trump TV was the original plan, and it's still the plan. He tells the GOP otherwise, but his goals and their goals have never been the same. And it's been too late for them to do anything about it since July, so.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:32 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump's behavior makes a lot more sense if you assume that his whole run has been about setting up Trump TV, rather than about winning the Presidency.

I personally think the dude is legitimately delusional, and that this is giving him far more credit for forward-thinking than we have any evidence he deserves.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:33 AM on September 30, 2016 [52 favorites]


JoeZydeco: Trump spokesperson Healy Baumgardner quits the campaign.
A Florida Trump aide resigned Monday because she said she's uncomfortable with the lack of progress in the campaign. “It is clear the campaign is now going in a direction I am no longer comfortable with and I have decided to move on,” said Healy Baumgardner, who had established herself early on as a public face of the campaign on TV, then saw her role shift to Florida following several campaign shake-ups.

Baumgardner, a 20-year political operative who has worked on four presidential campaigns, said she looks forward “to honorably casting my vote for Mr. Trump on Election Day.”

Clinton is 4 percentage points ahead of Trump in Florida, according to a Mason-Dixon Polling & Research survey taken after the debate.
So, which direction is that? Down? Or doubling down on sexist slop? (And I wonder if she's contractually obligated to say she'll vote for Donald, or is just being a good campaign person?)
posted by filthy light thief at 9:34 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Absolutely loving the pundit turn Nate has taken this election.

September 1 (As The Race Tightens, Don’t Assume The Electoral College Will Save Clinton): Clinton...is ahead by 4 or 5 percentage points today...I’ve often heard Democrats express a belief that Clinton’s position in the swing states will protect her in the Electoral College even if the race draws to a dead heat overall. But this is potentially mistaken.

September 29 (Even A Small Post-Debate Bounce Could Make A Big Difference For Clinton): The map starts to look a lot safer for Clinton if she’s up by 3 to 5 points instead.

RIDE THE ROLLERCOASTER FOLKS!
posted by one_bean at 9:34 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


The most disturbing aspect of the rape accusation against Trump is that the woman involved looked a lot like Ivanka as a teenager.
posted by asteria at 9:36 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


In the midst of the Red Sox clinching a playoff berth, and the amazing success of the New England Patriots with their backup QBs, and a few of the more politically-minded sports talk hosts are losing their minds over Machado. They know it's a campaign-ending PR masterstroke, and their response has been to 1) Accuse her of murder, but only briefly, because more importantly, 2) She got fat! How dare she get fat! It was her job not to get fat! Why was she fat? She was (varies between 15 to 80) pounds overweight! How did she expect to keep her job, being Miss Universe and fat?

They. Can't. Let. It. Go.

They know it's stupid. They know it doesn't matter in terms of policy and issues they care about. They... just can't drop it.

Some callers are trying to steer them to the notion that crude body-shaming is turning off almost anyone who isn't a revanchist pig, and they don't get it, aren't equipped with the tools to understand it. They're spending hours making Clinton's point for her. It's amazing.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:36 AM on September 30, 2016 [22 favorites]


I don't think "delusional" and "focused on Trump TV" are necessarily mutually exclusive.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:38 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump's incompetence is not evidence of some grand master plan; it is evidence of his incompetence. If Trump later claims that it was all an act to lay the groundwork for his new media empire, why should we believe that more than any other self-serving lie of his?
posted by J.K. Seazer at 9:38 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


Why are so many people saying "check out the sex tape" in this thread? It's not "check out the sex tape". It's "check out sex tape". Trump/Pence: CHECK OUT SEX TAPE. Catchier, no?
posted by mhum at 9:38 AM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


There is zero doubt in my mind that if a sex tape featuring Ivanka were to turn up, Trump would eagerly watch it. He's really that disgusting.

Not only would he watch it, he'd market it and sign deals for spin-off merchandising. Remember that he coerced then-mistress Marla Maples into posing for Playboy.

Man, the tell-all book Barron could write 20 years from now will be amazing.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 9:39 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Even setting aside the creepiness of listing his daughter as one of the three hottest women he can think of, it's pretty notable that the other two were Paris Hilton and Kiera Knightly, who are both known for being about as willowy-thin as any female celebrities on Earth.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I've been watching the Deutsche Bank problems this week - they've been fire-selling non-core assets and today, they denied there was a run starting by hedge funds disengaging, so there are real fears of serious trouble ahead. And not for just DB: I'm thinking those post-collapse banking system stress tests are going to be put to the test themselves.

Now, DB is, as far as I remember, the only bank willing to deal with Trump.They have (as someone mentioned upthread) an enormous amount of his debt and, one presumes, are a major arbiter of his liquidity.

That could unravel very fast. Which would be... interesting.
posted by Devonian at 9:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [31 favorites]


There is zero doubt in my mind that if a sex tape featuring Ivanka were to turn up, Trump would eagerly watch it sue for a hefty royalty/agent's fee.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


So, it's Friday. Let's take a look at All The Things that are lined up for Monday

Pretty sure the next thread will be Tuesday. This thread is young yet, and Tues. is the VP debate.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Baumgardner, a 20-year political operative who has worked on four presidential campaigns, said she looks forward “to honorably casting my vote for Mr. Trump on Election Day.”

She misused the word "honorably." Not what words mean. Terrible spokeswoman. Sad!
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:42 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah, I don't think Trump has any master plan. He is just amazingly bad at life and his whole campaign is only successful because White People Mad.
posted by zutalors! at 9:42 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'm curious - I don't watch a lot of TV and I haven't seen many Clinton ads (except for the recent one about Trump's comments about women). What percentage of them are just clips of Trump spouting his hateful garbage? Please say all of them.
posted by komara at 9:44 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


All the negative ads I've seen have been kids/veterans/etc groups watching Trump spout hateful garbage or people telling stories about how Trump ripped them off in business.
posted by zutalors! at 9:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


WHITE PEOPLE MAD. CHECK OUT SEX TAPE. MAKE AGAIN MAKE.
posted by komara at 9:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


So, the Giant Orange Talking Yam and Mayor "The Buildings Almost Fell On Me" are in town. Probably stopping by to beg some Braggadocious Bucks from the DeVos Mafia.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:47 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Man, the tell-all book Barron could write 20 years from now will be amazing.

Deep in a safe somewhere in Trump Tower, there's an NDA with a newborn-sized footprint on it.
posted by EarBucket at 9:47 AM on September 30, 2016 [66 favorites]


Trump leaked Melanie's nude pix to the NY Post. I mean for fucks sake they had a proud, positive quote from him about them in the damn article.
posted by chris24 at 9:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I have to hold out hope for Barron because he's so young, but I am pretty sure he'll turn out like the rest of them. It's weird because by all accounts they've spent so little time with their father, but they've all reacted by trying to suck up for his love, rather than rejecting him.
posted by zutalors! at 9:50 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


[Politically-minded sports radio hosts] are spending hours making Clinton's point for her.

I write this as a cis-gender white male - this is both a demonstration of privilege and the typical reaction to any hint of its removal. These hosts simply cannot understand that a woman's body does not belong to them. They might understand that on a superficial level - they surely understand that it would be illegal to kidnap Ms. Machado - but they don't understand it on any deep level.

BTW, that Rolling Stone link about whether Trump really wants to win is AMAZING! I have been following the election closely for a long time, but it is astonishing to read all of Trump's signature idiotic and hateful moments in one list.
posted by Slothrop at 9:50 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Apologies if this point was made earlier, but I can't stop myself from thinking this:

Not only is he a horrible misogynist, a horrible racist, and a horrible human being in all the other ways, his (untrue anyway) attacks make no sense from a strategic perspective: America loves a sex tape!
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:51 AM on September 30, 2016


My fondest hope is that Trump goes to jail for some of these frauds that would have gone undiscovered if he hadn't run for president. But I'll also settle for becoming a business pariah and losing a bunch of lawsuits.

OTOH, New York needs to appoint a working group to go over how the Trump Organization managed to engage in SO MUCH illegal behavior for so long without drawing the attention of regulators or prosecutors. And I know a lot of it is that they just make things wildly overcomplicated, target small businesses that can't fire back, and bury opponents in paperwork, but that's the kind of thing the state clearly needs better enforcement mechanisms to cope with.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:51 AM on September 30, 2016 [53 favorites]


It's weird because by all accounts they've spent so little time with their father, but they've all reacted by trying to suck up for his love, rather than rejecting him.

They know which side their bread is gilded on
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


They know it's a campaign-ending PR masterstroke, and their response has been to 1) Accuse her of murder, but only briefly, because more importantly, 2) She got fat! How dare she get fat! It was her job not to get fat! Why was she fat? She was (varies between 15 to 80) pounds overweight! How did she expect to keep her job, being Miss Universe and fat?

Yeah, I feel bad now for worrying yesterday that the Trump campaign would spend the week attacking Clinton by using the allegations of Machado's involvement in a murder to lure the media into reporting on that story since I figured murder was a pretty compelling story. It never occurred to me that they'd instead go back again and again to weight and sex tapes in an attempt to discredit Machado and Clinton. I couldn't imagine with Trump's own history and the popularity of celebs like Kim Kardasian that would even be imagined a winning formula. But clearly Trump's own ridiculous obsessions are driving their message more than any real plan.

My problem now is that I'm not sure whether I'm more or less disturbed that our own would be Nazis seem to channeling the Hogan's Heroes version as much as Downfall's.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Now, DB is, as far as I remember, the only bank willing to deal with Trump.They have (as someone mentioned upthread) an enormous amount of his debt and, one presumes, are a major arbiter of his liquidity.
Because of Trump's history of failed projects and repeated bankruptcies, many of the world's top banks have long stopped doing business with him. Deutsche Bank was one of the only major banks—perhaps the only—that would work with him, and their relationship has been rocky. Trump wore out his welcome with Deutsche Bank's corporate banking arm in 2008, when he attempted to get out of paying $40 million he personally owed the bank after his company failed to make a payment deadline on a larger $640 million loan for his Chicago project. But Trump has maintained his relationship with Deutsche's so-called "private bank"—an arm of the bank that caters to wealthy people and has more flexibility in its lending standards than the corporate side. The four loans Trump currently has with Deutsche Bank are each from the private bank, a Deutsche Bank official told Mother Jones.
More at Mother Jones
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


true I guess there's no denying that filthy, filthy money
posted by zutalors! at 9:53 AM on September 30, 2016


Ok, I'm trying to tread gingerly here, but could we maybe cool it with the stuff about Trump sexualizing his daughter? Not because it's not true and disturbing and tragic, but because I don't think it's germane -- it's not coming up in the election -- and it is going to be triggering AS FUCK for a nontrivial amount of women.

Honestly, NPD fathers commit incest and rape at I think scarily high rates. (And NPD parents in general I think. Plus covert vs overt etc.) I'm not super comfortable gawking at Trump's terrible behavior when there's a nontrivial chance we're talking about something truly terrible.

And as triggering as Trump's behavior has been for a lot of people with NPD or toxic or abusive parents...I imagine that's gotta be way worse.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:53 AM on September 30, 2016 [58 favorites]


Trump's incompetence is not evidence of some grand master plan; it is evidence of his incompetence. If Trump later claims that it was all an act to lay the groundwork for his new media empire, why should we believe that more than any other self-serving lie of his?

I keep pinballing back and forth between "there's no way he ISN'T intentionally throwing this race to bolster his media brand; no one is this bad at politicking" and "actually, no, wait, some people are exactly this bad at everything, and I really doubt he's playing 9-dimensional chess when he can't even launder his own foundation's money without screwing it up."

If this is just a long con, then it's one of the stupidest things anyone has ever done. More than half the country will refuse to stay at a Trump hotel after this election, and he'll have made his real estate holdings radioactive to any business that doesn't want to be seen as racist/sexist/deplorable and boycotted. He can't possibly make up that revenue loss, even with a media empire. Can he?

But then: Trump's Razor. Intentionally throwing the race to parlay it into a TV network would indeed be the stupidest possible reason behind the last year's events.
posted by Mayor West at 9:55 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


TOYNBEE IDEA
IN KUBRICK'S 2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER
CHECK OUT SEX TAPE
posted by uosuaq at 9:56 AM on September 30, 2016 [50 favorites]


Hahahaha, of course they did.

Donald Trump Charity Gave to Jenny McCarthy’s Anti-Vaxx Crusade
posted by chris24 at 9:56 AM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


how the Trump Organization managed to engage in SO MUCH illegal behavior for so long without drawing the attention of regulators or prosecutors

I don't know exactly but Albany is considered notoriously corrupt in general.
posted by zutalors! at 9:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]




NYT baits snake people, they take the bait and give the quote we've been waiting for. Hillary Clinton Struggles to Win Back Young Voters From Third Parties:
The vast majority of millennials were not old enough to vote in 2000, when Ralph Nader ran as the Green Party nominee and, with the strong backing of young voters, helped cost Vice President Al Gore the presidency.

“Ralph who?” said David Frasier, a junior at Charleston Southern University.

“Didn’t he kind of come in at the last minute and kind of alter the votes or something?” Mr. Frasier, 26, asked, his memory barely jogged. “I was too young to remember.”
posted by zachlipton at 10:01 AM on September 30, 2016 [22 favorites]


Corruption's such old song that we can sing along in harmony, and nowhere is it stronger than in Albany!
posted by KathrynT at 10:02 AM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


Devonian: "They have (as someone mentioned upthread) an enormous amount of his debt and, one presumes, are a major arbiter of his liquidity. "

Would this be a good news/bad news situation for him? On the one hand, if DB goes away, Trump will probably find it harder to secure any new funding since everyone knows that he's a terrible credit risk (although Bank of China and Goldman Sachs have provided funding for some of recent joint projects where it looks like he was a minority partner). On the other hand, if DB goes bankrupt or something, would that mean that a big chunk of Trump's debt gets wiped clean?

Probably the worst-case scenario for Trump would be if DB survives but has to issue a call on his debt (could that even be possible? probably not, but it's fun to imagine) in order to settle the DOJ fine.
posted by mhum at 10:02 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


For anyone who's still wondering about whether they should vote or not, even in blue wall California, even in a liberal west coast enclave like Los Angeles County: Hate Crimes Surged by 24% Across L.A. County in 2015. Voting against the people who encourage and stoke this kind of behavior is, aside from not engaging in any hate crimes yourself, the literal absolute least you can do. Will voting magically make these hate crimes go away and improve our political climate like there's been a laying on of hands? No. But every little bit in that popular vote total against Trump is just that much more relief to your fellow citizens who are worried and scared right now.
posted by yasaman at 10:03 AM on September 30, 2016 [57 favorites]


On the other hand, if DB goes bankrupt or something, would that mean that a big chunk of Trump's debt gets wiped clean?

I understood that it could get sold off at auction to help DB pay off fines. Whoever buys it, in that scenario, has a ton of leverage over him.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:05 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


People Exclusive: Bill Clinton Opens Up About How Hillary Has Weathered Personal 'Heartbreaks and Disappointment'

This is an excerpt from the next episode of Hillary's podcast. Very much worth a read IMO.
posted by acidic at 10:05 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Warning: autoplay video from acidic's link.
posted by peacheater at 10:08 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]



“Didn’t he kind of come in at the last minute and kind of alter the votes or something?” Mr. Frasier, 26, asked, his memory barely jogged. “I was too young to remember"


I've been waiting for this?
posted by zutalors! at 10:09 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]




The last time I watched Morning Joe Mika was full of Concern that the debate wouldn't help Hillary at all. I can't even tell if she's really as dumb as she seems to be or if Joe constantly talking over her makes it hard for her to make any real points. That show is a waste.
posted by zutalors! at 10:13 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Is tronc in the pockets of Big Orange?

@latimes: Here's where the presidential race stands today in our daily tracking poll
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


As a person who was young, but of voting age, and did vote for Nader, (in Florida), I can confirm that I for sure would have voted for Gore over Bush.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 10:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


CHECK OUT SEX TAPE
posted by J.K. Seazer at 10:23 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


That Trump has no self control and can only respond to crises by detaching more from reality and exacerbating the situation with his own behavior...it's just so mind fucking boggling that anyone would vote for him.

Imagine this behavior and the consequences magnified with the stakes of the presidency.
posted by angrybear at 10:26 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Take a look at banner, Michael!
posted by one_bean at 10:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Mod note: A few comments removed. If you are genuinely grappling for the first time with the idea that people have opinions about Nader's influence on the outcome of the 2000 US presidential election, it is time to do some googling for yourself, not bring it up in here and ask people to explain for the thousandth time.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [36 favorites]


Okay, I won't follow the Nader derail any more, except to point out this:

Nader, both in his book Crashing the Party and on his website states: "In the year 2000, exit polls reported that 25% of my voters would have voted for Bush, 38% would have voted for Gore and the rest would not have voted at all." (which would net a 13%, 12,665 votes, advantage for Gore over Bush.)

It's kind of crazy to talk about incredibly minor parties when the huge problem was the 12000+ vote margin Gore would have had without a Nader campaign. The reason the election was so close that a few hundred votes could make a difference is because of the 12k votes Nader siphoned away.

Yeah, third parties can make a difference, and strategic voting matters.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:28 AM on September 30, 2016 [37 favorites]


In Canada in the 2015 we got similar hectoring from both the (socialist) NDP and the (batshit crazy) Greens about how voting for third parties is "bad". The Liberals, under Trudeau, won.

The Greens claimed to be neck-and-neck with the NDP in the polls in my riding, Victoria BC during the last election, so you just had to vote for them if you wanted a chance to send a Green MP to Parliament. They actually lied about their campaign numbers; they were never ahead, and "voting strategically" for them would have been a waste of a vote.

The NDP, which got crushed by the Liberals all across Canada, also hectored people about not voting strategically, even though, in hindsight, it's pretty obvious that the electorate loved and continues to love Justin Trudeau.

I think hectoring people to not vote for a third-party candidate is pathetic and anti-democratic. If people wanted to vote for Ralph Nader, why the hell not?

If you want to vote for a nincompoop like Jill Stein, or a clueless pothead like Gary Johnson, there is little chance of someone talking sense into your brain, anyway.

It's just so arrogant to say to be people that who they intend vote for is "wrong."
posted by My Dad at 10:29 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


I agree with what was said before, voting third party is like anti-vaxxers expecting herd immunity to keep their kids from getting diseases.
posted by zutalors! at 10:30 AM on September 30, 2016 [72 favorites]


Welp, Charlie Pierce managed to scare the living shit out of me again this afternoon. I wonder whether he filed this before or after he read Trump's insane tweetstorm.
posted by holborne at 10:30 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have to hold out hope for Barron because he's so young, but I am pretty sure he'll turn out like the rest of them. It's weird because by all accounts they've spent so little time with their father, but they've all reacted by trying to suck up for his love, rather than rejecting him.

I very fervently hope that Barron has a nanny/teacher/mentor who genuinely loves and cares about him.

Also this September 2016 article about the "Trump Boys" in Town & Country is sort of completely amazing.
posted by anastasiav at 10:33 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I wonder whether he filed this before or after he read Trump's insane tweetstorm.

Before.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:34 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


DailyBeast: Which Group of People Does Trump Hate the Most?
Not Mexicans, since some (he assumes) are good people. Not Muslims. Not even people with low ratings. It’s women. And it’s his biggest Achilles Heel.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:34 AM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]



I have to hold out hope for Barron because he's so young, but I am pretty sure he'll turn out like the rest of them. It's weird because by all accounts they've spent so little time with their father, but they've all reacted by trying to suck up for his love, rather than rejecting him.

I very fervently hope that Barron has a nanny/teacher/mentor who genuinely loves and cares about him.


I mean I don't really know, but I feel like Ivana at least is a smart person and probably a caring parent, and it seems like by all accounts that Trump doesn't really raise or even interact with his kids much. And yet. Look at those kids.

But absolutely, best wishes for Barron.
posted by zutalors! at 10:35 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think hectoring people to not vote for a third-party candidate is pathetic and anti-democratic.

When the alternative is George W Bush as Darth Cheney's ventriloquist's dummy or, in this election's case, Literally Hitler, you're going to get some push back on your choices.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:37 AM on September 30, 2016 [46 favorites]


Why are so many people saying "check out the sex tape" in this thread? It's not "check out the sex tape". It's "check out sex tape".

*Goes to Pornhub, searches "cashier"*
posted by dirigibleman at 10:38 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


OK, once again for the record, and for the benefit of anyone who wasn't politically aware back in 2000:

None of the other third-party candidates in 2000 were attracting votes from anyone other than their tiny, tiny blocs of diehard supporters. Nader, on the other hand, was very explicitly held up as a viable third choice for those on the Left who didn't feel represented by either Bush or Gore, and who wanted to protest against the (legitimately broken) two-party, winner-take-all electoral system that we have here in the U.S.

As a result, he got many more votes than a third-party candidate usually gets here, most of which came from people—mostly young voters—who would otherwise have voted for Gore. Bush's margin of victory in 2000 was so small that had Nader not received such a (relatively) outsized proportion of votes, he would definitely have lost the election to Gore.

America would then have avoided one of the most disastrous presidencies in recent history, one that saw a massive explosion in the national debt, normalization of torture as an interrogation tactic, permanent erosion of civil liberties, willfully counterproductive environmental policy, and setbacks for marginalized groups across the country.

The parallels with the role that Gary Johnson and Jill Stein are playing in this election cycle are unavoidable. I was 17 during the 2000 election, but I remember being a principled Nader supporter and I remember many people in my social circle—some of whom were of voting age—felt the same way.

You can be damn sure I'm not going to repeat that mistake again. The stakes are way too high for those kinds of games. The time for fixing the electoral process is between election cycles, not during them. Now is the time to make sure that Donald motherfucking Trump doesn't become our president and flush this country straight down the tubes. End of story.

Principled Leftist voters accidentally fucked this country back in 2000, and as disastrous as Bush II was, Donald Trump looks much, much worse. Don't let's repeat that mistake.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:39 AM on September 30, 2016 [155 favorites]


I'm sure someone's verified his latest tweets came from the Android, but really, "paragon", much less, "paragon of virtue" coming from Trump himself? I have doubts.
posted by klarck at 10:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


The kids may not see much of him, but I'm sure they're raised in a totalitarian-style cult of personality where they're constantly reminded that everything Good and Right in the world comes to them by the grace of Gentle Leader (a.k.a. Dad, CEO).

Also, that T&C article was mostly fawning garbage until: "He probably has normal-sized hands." Fist-bump to that writer.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 10:41 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump is now every guy that messaged you at 1am saying "u up?" and when you didn't respond right away sent you 3 dozen increasingly-more-unhinged ones calling you a skank and a whore and ugly and a bitch and so on.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 10:42 AM on September 30, 2016 [74 favorites]


An obese, poorly coifed, serial philanderer, alleged child rapist and coke user demands Americans watch a sex tape via 3 am tweet.

Whew OK -- Just smile, laugh and shimmy away folks.
posted by humanfont at 10:43 AM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]




Mod note: For fuck's sake, folks, seriously, this is not the thread in which we are going to arm-wrestle to settle once and for all whether people should vote third party. Some of you disagree with each other, and that's okay, but please move on from it in here, and take the reheated arguments to your blogs or social media or whatever.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [73 favorites]


Looks like Deutsche Bank won't need to call in Donald's loans just yet.

DOJ and DB negotiate settlement from $11 Billion down to $5.4 Billion.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:48 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


All the tweets including "paragon" are from Android.
posted by chris24 at 10:48 AM on September 30, 2016


I just realized: this is the first time I can remember Trump exhorting his supporters to use an internet resource for anything other than checking Twitter.

Well, second, after that time he told people to go to Clinton's website while its front page was devoted to fact-checking his debate performance.
posted by ckape at 10:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


after that time he told people to go to Clinton's website while its front page was devoted to fact-checking his debate performance

I thought he was directing people to his site also (which crashed.) Did I miss something?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:57 AM on September 30, 2016


I understood that it could get sold off at auction to help DB pay off fines. Whoever buys it, in that scenario, has a ton of leverage over him.

I have this pleasant fantasy of HRC in the front row of the auction house, just waiting for her chance to bid...
posted by mikelieman at 10:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Which Group of People Does Trump Hate the Most? It's women. And it’s his biggest Achilles Heel.
He doesn't even hate them, he just doesn't think of them as human. More like Fleshlights that say complimentary things to him. And when they don't, he tosses them in the trash and complains about low-quality manufacture.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


Deposition videos
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:59 AM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


ZeusHumms: "I understood that it could get sold off at auction to help DB pay off fines. Whoever buys it, in that scenario, has a ton of leverage over him."

Ah yes, of course. I feel foolish for missing that.

And well, as JoeZydeco points out, this is probably moot now that DB managed to negotiate the DOJ fine down to $5.4B (coincidentally just under the $6B or so they had already set aside in their litigation reserves). However, it's fun to imagine if Trump's debts were bought up by, say, a distressed debt vulture fund.
posted by mhum at 10:59 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I very fervently hope that Barron has a nanny/teacher/mentor who genuinely loves and cares about him.

Ever read Captains Courageous?
posted by Countess Elena at 11:03 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


On the other hand, if DB goes bankrupt or something, would that mean that a big chunk of Trump's debt gets wiped clean?

No. Debts are assignable, and if you as an individual take out a mortgage on a house there's a very good chance you'll get contact - before your first payment is even due - indicating that the debt has been transferred to some other party. Often in the US with loans under 500k that assignment has been to Fannie/Freddie, but it could be anyone. There's a few large players who tend to hold this stuff but for our purposes it's largely irrelevant.

Now, what you might be thinking of is that in the time coming off the CDO madness in the late 2000s there were some tales of folks who fought back on foreclosures with some success because the institutions trying to foreclose couldn't produce valid documentation that they were the actual debt holder. As these mortgages had been sold back and forth willy-nilly and bundled into much larger instruments there had at times been sloppy record keeping and it wasn't always easy to unwind this stuff such that people could prove they held the debt.

Which I phrase carefully to make clear - nobody ever doubted there was a debt, nor the fact that someone had a right to collect on it. The issue is that the legal system requires you be able to verify this fact. It's one of the reasons that if you ever have to deal with a debt collector - particularly someone trying to collect on old "zombie" debt that you've long since forgotten - you ask them for validation. No proof, no ability to force you to pay.

The chances that such documentation doesn't exist for Trump's properties is basically zero.

So were anyone holding one of those notes to go bankrupt, that debt would be sold off as part of the bankruptcy if it was a liquidation. If it was a restructuring maybe they'd get to keep it, maybe it would be sold. If it was sold then the price it fetched would be based in part on how likely it was that the people acquiring it would be able to collect.

You could see some interesting things about Trump properties with debts if there was a filing in American courts that wasn't sealed, but I wouldn't wager on it.
posted by phearlez at 11:05 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ever read Captains Courageous?

There's a musical, too.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:05 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Donald Trump Surrogates Play Up Bill Clinton's Past | Morning Joe | MSNBC

Ghouliani, Newt and Trump: 9 wives between them; reminder of history - GOP attacked the Clintons on past extramarital scandals, and the American people were sympathetic, increasing the public support for Bill and Hillary.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:08 AM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Anticipation of a New Lovers Arrival, The:
Not that it would validate Trump's attack one bit if a sex tape did exist; I mean, nobody is trying to claim that Machado has never had sex—she's a mother for grief's sake—and it baffles me why it should matter whether or not there is videographic evidence of that. Donald Trump has had sex. Hillary Clinton has had sex. Your mom has had sex, and so has your dad. Most adult humans have. It's a totally normal and generally pretty fun thing to do, plus it's kinda central to the continued existence of our species, so I'm not sure why I'm supposed to have a problem with Machado also doing it.
All the favorites for this comment. And, yes, eponysterial too.
posted by msalt at 11:08 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I thought he was directing people to his site also (which crashed.) Did I miss something?
TRUMP: “And look at her website. You know what? It’s no difference than this. She’s telling us how to fight ISIS. Just go to her website. She tells you how to fight ISIS on her website. I don’t think General Douglas MacArthur would like that too much.”
posted by ckape at 11:09 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]




Ah, I took that as inviting ISIS to look at her site.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:13 AM on September 30, 2016


ISIS also has a very public (and more PR-smart than Trump) website...
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:17 AM on September 30, 2016


Among the comments: "They're all in their rooms reading their courtesy copies of USA Today."

Photo: Lunch time at The DC Trump International Hotel.
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


That deposition Mister Bijou links to is fascinating.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:21 AM on September 30, 2016


Slate's headline about Mefi's Own Scott Adams is a real doozy.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:26 AM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


I understood that it could get sold off at auction to help DB pay off fines. Whoever buys it, in that scenario, has a ton of leverage over him.

OK, MeFi, so if we all pool our money...
(Quick—somebody shoot a MeMail to user 43565.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:28 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


This morning I listened to the most recent episode of Politico's Nerdcast 2016, and they answered a listener question in a way that made me legitimately angry.

The caller wondered why the US media dedicate so little space to actual policy positions of candidates, and specifically why there had been very little media coverage--most notably an absence of live television reports--of Clinton's speech on disability rights in Orlando last week. He asked how callers could reasonably be expected to make informed voting decisions when the media don't give them this information.

Everyone on the Politico team agreed this was a worthwhile point. Regarding the disability rights speech, Charlie Mahtesian acknowledged that it could be deemed historic, since to his knowledge no candidate had ever made disability an election season campaign point.

The problem, he said, was that there wasn't much "there there," if you drilled down. At first I thought he meant that she didn't offer any actual policy specifics, which surprised me given Clinton's wonkiness. He seemed to confirm my assumption when he noted that a considerable amount of her talk in Orlando duplicated her regular stump speech... but then he went on to explain that she had also touched on points such as employment law, education policy, and healthcare.

It turns out that the problem wasn't that she didn't have policy proposals. It's that the ones she offered are allegedly things anyone would agree with. They're uncontroversial. The fact that there are presently no (or insufficient) protections for disability rights in several areas would seem to counter this view, but Mahtesian explained that she didn't announce a big bill for spending $X, or make any other exciting proposal that would make for compelling news coverage. These details would make a difference in the lives of millions of Americans, but they didn't make for good TV.

Most importantly, she didn't take this opportunity to push hard against Donald Trump. Even though--as that WSJ link I shared above pointed out--she's mentioned his mocking of the disabled journalist many times, in this case her campaign decided that slamming Trump would detract from the seriousness of the policy matters she wanted to discuss. And this is what cost her, so that large swathes of the voting public never heard what she had to say. She didn't turn it into a fight. According to Politico, this was an understandable decision but a strategic error. It's not the fault of the media: basically, they said anyone who really cares about this stuff can just look it up, it's just not worth serving to the public without a more exciting hook to hang it on. "Historic foregrounding of disability rights" and "hitting hard on the campaign's core message of inclusiveness" just didn't cut it, I guess.

This is also infuriating because I've been hearing from some of my former-Bernie-supporting friends that Clinton has emphasized negative campaigning too much, without discussing positive reasons to vote for her. When she does push those messages, though, the media ignore her because they're "too boring." Meanwhile, they'll stand around for an hour in front of an empty podium at a hotel infomercial waiting for Trump to maybe, possibly say something of note.

I study the media, I work with and around journalists regularly, so I'm not naïve. Doesn't mean I can't still be angry about how they operate, especially when the stakes are so high.
posted by Superplin at 11:30 AM on September 30, 2016 [151 favorites]


I read the depositions, both the Trump U (abridged) one and the Restaurant one. A couple things: Trump never carries his reading glasses, the original completion date of the DC hotel, according to the press release sent out when it was announced, was late 2015, and--legal experts please clarify if this is a common response--Trump says "I don't know" and "I don't remember" a lot.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 11:30 AM on September 30, 2016


That deposition Mister Bijou links to is fascinating.

Originally I passed it by ( The Zakarian restaurant at the old post office hotel suit from June ), but then after you mentioned this I went back and read it and...

Dude really does have only one shtick doesn't he? And it's terrifying to watch in long-format like this.
posted by mikelieman at 11:32 AM on September 30, 2016


the original completion date of the DC hotel, according to the press release sent out when it was announced, was late 2015

Trump in the debate:
But we're opening the Old Post Office. Under budget, ahead of schedule, saved tremendous money. I'm a year ahead of schedule. And that's what this country should be doing.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:36 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


without drawing the attention of regulators or prosecutors.

Well, there's heavy implication that Trump had some sway with people given the power to conduct investigations and make settlements: city and state comptrollers, people in the attorney general's office. But as I've said here before, the real billionaires of NYC -- and, to be fair, the Clintons -- seem to have considered him a clown, a sideshow, a sometimes-useful distraction, and tolerated him as long as it was only construction workers and contractors and taxpayers getting stiffed, not themselves personally.

(DB's on the bounce. Oversold, shorted, traders working off their own gossip and rumour.)
posted by holgate at 11:38 AM on September 30, 2016


When she does push those messages, though, the media ignore her because they're "too boring." Meanwhile, they'll stand around for an hour in front of an empty podium at a hotel infomercial waiting for Trump to maybe, possibly say something of note.

This is a great point, part of an outstanding comment. I brought up the empty podium in these threads a few weeks ago and was inexplicably mocked for not "understanding the media" who was just giving Trump equal time because that's their job.
posted by zutalors! at 11:39 AM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Imagine if that debt were purchased by George Soros. The alt-right would go into conspiracy meltdown.
posted by cmfletcher at 11:39 AM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Angrycat, Ohio's bellwether status is a thing of the past, and the Clinton campaign is concentrating resources elsewhere. Tell your therapist!
posted by salix at 11:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


It turns out that the problem wasn't that she didn't have policy proposals. It's that the ones she offered are allegedly things anyone would agree with. They're uncontroversial. The fact that there are presently no (or insufficient) protections for disability rights in several areas would seem to counter this view, but Mahtesian explained that she didn't announce a big bill for spending $X, or make any other exciting proposal that would make for compelling news coverage. These details would make a difference in the lives of millions of Americans, but they didn't make for good TV.

Thanks for articulating that. I watched the speech twice, the second time with my wife, and thought it was great stuff. No big headline-making announcements, but good, common sense policies which would be the foundation for decent legislation that might even make it through the House. More importantly, she gave voice to the challenges faced by Americans with disabilities, and that was remarkable.

And, crickets.

I posted it to social media, which led to a brief but substantive exchange about the problems with the subminimum wage, so at least there was that tiniest of ripples. But otherwise, it was completely obscured by the continuing slow motion train wreck of the Trump show.
posted by vverse23 at 11:42 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


If Clinton's disability rights proposals were really so uncontroversial, then surely we wouldn't see Congress go into a freakout about the costs and the rights of businesses to discriminate and the trouble of all those burdensome regulations, right?
posted by zachlipton at 11:43 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


Browsing Google News headlines about the Machado story, and they are nearly unanimously negative re: Trump. Except, of course, Fox News:
Miss Universe Alicia Machado accused of threatening to kill judge in late '90s
FFS
posted by zakur at 11:44 AM on September 30, 2016


omg lololol @realdonaldtrump: "For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

Someone should tell him the White House has people to answer calls for him.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:45 AM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


All I know is that the first candidate who will take action to put real Canadian poutine in all American restaurants gets my vote.

PRIORITIES, PEOPLE.
posted by delfin at 11:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


good, common sense policies which would be the foundation for decent legislation that might even make it through the House

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, man. Can y'all just imagine the obstructionism from congressional Republicans that Hillary will have to face when she becomes president? It's going to make the eight-year-long tantrum that they've been throwing against Obama look like a happy-go-lucky sing-a-long. The wailing and screaming will be heard across the land.

This shit doesn't end in November, not by a long shot.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


omg lololol @realdonaldtrump: "For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

Does he think the President frequently receives 3am phone calls with requests to insult woman and minorities, or would that be a new program his administration would introduce?

"Mr. President. We need you in the situation room immediately. There's a totally unsubstantiated rumor going around a woman you found unattractive made a sex tape. We're thinking you can introduce it before the networks air it live while you review these plans to bomb the country she came from." [fake]
posted by zachlipton at 11:46 AM on September 30, 2016 [34 favorites]


I'd be interested in the evangelical Trumpster reaction to their favoured candidate's request for them to view pornography.

Is that part of the 25 percent of Donald that is bad, but will be helped by the good people gathering around him? Or are they gathering around him to look at what's playing on his phone?
posted by Devonian at 11:48 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Can y'all just imagine the obstructionism from congressional Republicans that Hillary will have to face when she becomes president?

One of the biggest things that drew me to her over Bernie in the primaries is that I think she understands this very well and will go in knowing that everything will be a horrible fight. I think a big part of what went wrong in the first four years especially of Obama was his failure to comprehend what he was up against in Congress.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:48 AM on September 30, 2016 [48 favorites]


@realdonaldtrump: For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

Tweet of the year, hands down.
posted by dis_integration at 11:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


... Clinton has emphasized negative campaigning too much, without discussing positive reasons to vote for her. When she does push those messages, though, the media ignore her because they're "too boring."

Sexist tightrope-walking twirling demands, part MCMDLXIV.
posted by Dashy at 11:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


The Four Donald Trumps You Meet on Earth
…Trump’s misogyny is shocking because it’s so brazen, but it’s infuriating because it’s so familiar. Chances are, if you’re a woman in 2016, you’ve heard it all before.

* * *

The first time you meet Donald Trump, he’s an older male relative who smells like cigarettes and asks when you are going to lose that weight. You’re 9 years old. Your parents have to go out and buy a bottle of vodka for him before he arrives. His name is Dick. No, really, it is. At dinner one night, he explains to you that black people are dangerous. “If you turn around, they’ll put a knife in your back.” Except Bill Cosby. “He’s one of the good ones.” Turns out he’s wrong about Cosby and everything else, but the statute of limitations on Dick’s existence on Earth will run out before that information is widely available.

The next time you meet Donald Trump you’re in high school.…
posted by Lexica at 11:49 AM on September 30, 2016 [62 favorites]


zachlipton: If Clinton's disability rights proposals were really so uncontroversial, then surely we wouldn't see Congress go into a freakout about the costs and the rights of businesses to discriminate and the trouble of all those burdensome regulations, right?

Right? As I continue to reflect, I realize that if there is no "other side" where journalists can look for opposing viewpoints, or something for pundits to debate concern troll over with even a veneer of plausibility, then they're just not interested.

If she'd attached a dollar figure, then there would have been something for vultures to fight over. But regulatory changes that in some cases don't even require spending allocations and have broad, bipartisan appeal aren't worth bothering with.
posted by Superplin at 11:50 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!

"Tweaked out of my mind."
posted by chris24 at 11:51 AM on September 30, 2016 [21 favorites]


I guess my only question at this point is whether I should check out sex tape
posted by beerperson at 11:51 AM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


I got to the point in the Post Office deposition where
Q But my question is, do you understand that
there is a duty of good faith and fair dealing
that's implied on to the part of both parties in
every lease deal?

A I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I
want a fair deal. I just don't know what the lease
says.
and I started feeling sad for Donnie. I mean, it's Real Estate Law 101 he's spacing out over here...
posted by mikelieman at 11:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


tonycpsu: "Someone should tell him the White House has people to answer calls for him."

Or that they take your phone away from you when you become president and give you one that has 90% of its functionality disabled and the certainly don't let you tweet unvetted messages at 3AM.
posted by octothorpe at 11:55 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


Can't check out sex tape. Can't find cashier in sex hardware store.
posted by PlusDistance at 11:55 AM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


@realdonaldtrump: For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

Right as he drops his Movement into the toilet...
posted by SillyShepherd at 11:58 AM on September 30, 2016


Someone on Twitter has pointed out that 3am NYC is 10am Russia.

I am torn between hysterical sobbing and hysterical laughter.
posted by like_neon at 11:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


Well, Randy Quaid has made his official endorsement.
(!!! DO NOT CLICK IF YOU VALUE SANITY !!!)
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:03 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm surprised Randy Quaid isn't supporting Gary Johnson.
posted by pxe2000 at 12:03 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I would bet money that the reason Alicia Machado is sure a sore spot for Trump is that she wouldn't sleep with him.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:04 PM on September 30, 2016 [61 favorites]


Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The: Can y'all just imagine the obstructionism from congressional Republicans that Hillary will have to face when she becomes president?

I definitely agree, and expect to see hot words and fiery language. Could we call that flaming passion.....
( ∙_∙)

   ( ∙_∙)>⌐■-■

       (⌐■_■)
Trumpster Fire?
posted by wenestvedt at 12:05 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well, Randy Quaid has made his official endorsement.
(!!! DO NOT CLICK IF YOU VALUE SANITY !!!)


I should have listened.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 12:07 PM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]




Clinton calls for new National Service Reserve during Florida swing:
Hillary Clinton on Friday called for the creation of a National Service Reserve, an initiative she said would allow 5 million mostly young people to serve their cities and states on a wide array of projects on a part-time basis.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:08 PM on September 30, 2016 [54 favorites]


Well, Randy Quaid has made his official endorsement.

I can't tell if Randy Quaid is doing better or doing worse than the last time I investigated what he was up to (which was, if I remember correctly, running from the law and the "Hollywood star whackers" he thought were trying to have him killed).
posted by infinitywaltz at 12:08 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump will also demand that the moon is made of cheese.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:09 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Reading through the details, that national civic service plan is great, but my libertarian husband is going to freak out.
posted by stolyarova at 12:09 PM on September 30, 2016


That's really interesting, kirkaracha. Depending on what kind of projects the National Service Reserve ends up taking on, I might very well be interested in joining.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:10 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I would bet money that the reason Alicia Machado is sure a sore spot for Trump is that she wouldn't sleep with him.

I'm firmly convinced of this as well. I mean, there's no way he didn't view the Miss Universe pageant as a pool of potential mistresses, right?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:12 PM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


Wow. The National Service Reserve is a wonderful, wonderful idea.
posted by Dashy at 12:12 PM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


my libertarian husband is going to freak out

I never understood this, especially with those in the military and veterans. Is it about it not being "honorable" or "patriotic" or something like that? Limiting service to one's country strictly to war seems like a horrible thing to ask for.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:15 PM on September 30, 2016 [26 favorites]


It's about the fear that it will be made compulsory.
posted by stolyarova at 12:16 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


"The interview with Ellmers, which took place on MSNBC, is a fantastic demonstration of how indefensible Trump’s behavior has been in this instance and how impossible it is for surrogates to even attempt to mount such a defense. Still, Ellmers tried her best and completely embarrassed herself in doing so. She basically blamed Clinton for Trump’s response and then said this: “Donald Trump is setting the record straight and he's using social media. That's the kind of president we need."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:16 PM on September 30, 2016


FTFA:
Hillary Clinton's new endeavor would be modeled after the Armed Forces Reserves, which allows participants "to make a high-impact contribution, while still building careers and pursuing their dreams in other ways," she said.

After receiving some "basic training," those in the services reserves could be called upon to help respond to natural disasters, public health campaigns or other projects.

"Some of those assignments will be just a few days, a month," Clinton said. "Some might be longer-term. But they will all directly address a vital need in your community."
This kind of reminds me of Thomas P.M. Barnett's "sysadmin force" idea from "The Pentagon's New Map" a dozen years ago, where the DoD could pivot part of its effort from fighting shooting wars and instead into building new, good things (albeit in other countries).

I love the idea of national service. Extending existing programs for forgiving the student loans of inner-city teachers into other skills and parts of America is an awesome idea.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:17 PM on September 30, 2016 [23 favorites]


On one side of the equation, it is my civic duty to check out the sex tape. On the other side of the equation, I've heard masturbation causes your hands to shrink.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:17 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


omg lololol @realdonaldtrump: "For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

That's funny. I mean, it's not, like, comedy gold, but it demonstrates a basic self-aware sense of humor; it's a good tweet.

It makes me sad whenever you see glimpses of the real human being caged up inside a narcissist.
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:18 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Just wait for people to call it a network of socialist indoctrination camps in 3...2...1.

Just look at the visceral hate for AmeriCorps, not because the program sometimes has problems and could use reform, but by people who are furious it was allowed to happen at all.
posted by zachlipton at 12:20 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


New Clinton Spanish-Language Ad Highlights 'First-Time' Voters Opposing Trump:
A concerted Spanish-language ad push from the Clinton campaign is underway, with two cuts of an ad highlighting first-time voters set to begin airing on television and digitally in all 50 states.

But the first-time voters the campaign is interested in highlighting aren’t just young voters — though they are included, too — but new citizens and Republicans crossing over to vote for a Democrat for the first time because of the specter of Donald Trump.
At the end she says, "Soy Hillary Clinton, and I approve this message." It doesn't have to be in English; George W. Bush's Spanish-language ads ended with "Soy George W. Bush y aprobé este mensaje." I know she dosn't speak Spanish, but maybe Tim Kaine could give her some pointers.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:21 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm glad Hillary Clinton isn't making her policy decisions based on what crazy people might say about them.
posted by theodolite at 12:21 PM on September 30, 2016 [23 favorites]


I would like to DEMAND tonight that 'president' Obama not strap all Evangelicals to an Elon Musk rocket and shoot them to the moon, if this does not happen later then YOU'RE WELCOME
posted by beerperson at 12:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


So, you're awake at 3am to take calls from Russia. Got it.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's about the fear that it will be made compulsory.

Like the Peace Corp, AmeriCorps, and the military?
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


> "I mean, it's not, like, comedy gold, but it demonstrates a basic self-aware sense of humor; it's a good tweet."

I don't think he's joking.
posted by kyrademon at 12:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


It wasn't that long ago that the military was compulsory. The Selective Service is still a thing.
posted by stolyarova at 12:23 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Wow. The National Service Reserve is a wonderful, wonderful idea.

You're now a Marine.

Next!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:23 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


it demonstrates a basic self-aware sense of humor; it's a good tweet

I don't think he meant it to be funny at all. He earnestly believes that his obsessive late-night Twitter binges proves he's more presidential than Clinton, who sleeps sometimes.
posted by neroli at 12:23 PM on September 30, 2016 [20 favorites]


It's about the fear that it will be made compulsory.

Like the Peace Corp, AmeriCorps, and the military?


Well, one of those (the one that this thing is explicitly being modeled on) kind of still is...
posted by Etrigan at 12:25 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I mean, I think I can sell him on it if I pitch it as a way to give young people jobs and experience, plus help fix local issues (damaged infrastructure etc.). But the name - "National Service Reserve" - is going to set off some post-Soviet alarm bells in his head.
posted by stolyarova at 12:25 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't think he meant it to be funny at all. He earnestly believes that his obsessive late-night Twitter binges proves he's more presidential than Clinton, who sleeps sometimes.

"Crooked Hillary Clinton doesn't make enough money to sustain a 24/7 amphetamine habit! Sad!"
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:25 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


You're now a Marine.

Like Namor!
posted by beerperson at 12:26 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Forget drug use, can we blame Trump's behavior on sleep deprivation?
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:26 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


You're now a Marine.

Of all the branches, the Marines are the ones I respect. er. Most respect.
posted by mikelieman at 12:27 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


omg lololol @realdonaldtrump: "For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

*ring ring*
*ring ring*
*ring ring*
TRUMP: Meredith, answer the goddamn phone!
MEREDITH: But Mr. Trump that's the red phone with the direct line to the Kremlin and--
TRUMP: Sometimes Putin has a few too many Stolis and calls to sing show tunes. You deal with it.
MEREDITH: Gee Mr. Trump I sure do like show tunes.
posted by Mayor West at 12:27 PM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


It's about the fear that it will be made compulsory.

That sounds kind of like the inverse of the libertarian complaints about safety nets via taxes vs. via charity, which they cling to despite centuries of it not actually panning out.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:27 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Perhaps he's on the same stuff as McAfee.
posted by cell divide at 12:28 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Opposing conscription isn't exclusively a libertarian thing.
posted by stolyarova at 12:29 PM on September 30, 2016


Clinton calls for new National Service Reserve during Florida swing:

I'd sign up for this the day it launched, I honestly would. I remember learning about the Civilian Conservation Corps and being SO MAD that it didn't still exist.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:29 PM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


Forget drug use, can we blame Trump's behavior on sleep deprivation?

Tweakers gonna tweak, and there's nothing any of us can do about it.
posted by mikelieman at 12:30 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Just look at the visceral hate for AmeriCorps, not because the program sometimes has problems and could use reform, but by people who are furious it was allowed to happen at all.

What if we went the Swiss route, and said that everyone has to do a year in the military or a year in the service corps? Not only would it jam up the political will to use the military to solve every problem, but it would also let us crash the unstoppable-force of military-fetishization among the alt-right into the immovable-object of contempt for public works.
posted by Mayor West at 12:30 PM on September 30, 2016 [24 favorites]


I mean, I completely understand opposing conscription, but going from National Service Reserve to SOVIET RUSSIA is a bit of a leap.
posted by lydhre at 12:30 PM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


Actually, this is kind of what I'm worried HRC's successful reactivation of Democratic patriotism might lead to - a world in which both left and right agree that conscription into the service of a nation is a patriotic duty rather than an essential violation of human rights.
posted by stolyarova at 12:31 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


I've liked the idea of national service for a long time. My dad was in the Army during the draft era, and I envied that fact that men his age from all over the United States had that in common. He could meet someone anywhere and they could compare notes about which branch they served in and where they served. I didn't necessarily envy the military aspect of it--he was a tactical nuclear officer in West Germany during the Berlin Wall Crisis--but the shared experience aspect of it.

I think a big part of racism is not being exposed to different people. I've heard enough stories of people meeting people of different races and backgrounds in the military or on college and professional sports teams and changing their attitudes that I believe it'd be beneficial on a national level. Actually being in it together makes you feel like you're all in it together.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:31 PM on September 30, 2016 [35 favorites]


lalex: omg lololol @realdonaldtrump: "For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

What is he now, Batman? He really turned up the America as Gotham, the "doomed city can only be saved by me," plot to 11.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:31 PM on September 30, 2016




Nobody has been drafted in 43 years. Everybody can chill out.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 12:32 PM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


New Clinton Spanish-Language Ad Highlights 'First-Time' Voters Opposing Trump:

Have you ever alguna vez found that suddenly habia muy polvoriento for no razon?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:33 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Opposing conscription isn't exclusively a libertarian thing.

Fully agree, but this sounds pretty far from being that.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 12:33 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump: In case you Undecided's haven't seen REPULSIVE Machado sex tape: (link to torrent file)

Jeb: please seed
posted by Taft at 12:33 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


@BernieSanders: It's pretty telling that Donald Trump thinks the problem with his sexist tweets is the time that they were sent.
posted by chris24 at 12:33 PM on September 30, 2016 [52 favorites]


As proposed, the National Service Reserve looks like an excellent idea. Mission creep and HRC's deep nationalistic/patriotic/civic belief that every citizen should serve their country (as stated in It Takes a Village, which I'm reading right now) could easily lead the NSR to become... more.
posted by stolyarova at 12:33 PM on September 30, 2016


I remember learning about the Civilian Conservation Corps and being SO MAD that it didn't still exist.

When Obama took office I wanted a revised WPA to give unemployed people jobs and rebuild infrastructure.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:34 PM on September 30, 2016 [29 favorites]


Also, my husband grew up in literal Soviet Russia, and his family moving to the United States saved him from compulsory service in the Belarussian armed forces. So yeah, the idea of compulsory civic service is kind of a bugaboo.
posted by stolyarova at 12:35 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I mean, it's not, like, comedy gold, but it demonstrates a basic self-aware sense of humor; it's a good tweet.

If the tweet's intention was to be self-deprecatingly funny, it must have been sent from an iPhone. If meant in earnest, Android.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:35 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


The National Service Reserve reminds me of an old David Graeber essay about why so many soldiers talk about philanthropy as their motivation for enlisting:
...Why do working-class Bush voters tend to resent intellectuals more than they do the rich? It seems to me that the answer is simple. They can imagine a scenario in which they might become rich but cannot possibly imagine one in which they, or any of their children, would become members of the intelligentsia. If you think about it, this is not an unreasonable assessment. A mechanic from Nebraska knows it is highly unlikely that his son or daughter will ever become an Enron executive. But it is possible. There is virtually no chance, however, that his child, no matter how talented, will ever become an international human-rights lawyer or a drama critic for the New York Times. Here we need to remember not just the changes in higher education but also the role of unpaid, or effectively unpaid, internships. It has become a fact of life in the United States that if one chooses a career for any reason other than the salary, for the first year or two one will not be paid. This is certainly true if one wishes to be involved in altruistic pursuits: say, to join the world of charities, or NGOs, or to become a political activist. But it is equally true if one wants to pursue values like Beauty or Truth: to become part of the world of books, or the art world, or an investigative reporter. The custom effectively seals off such a career for any poor student who actually does attain a liberal arts education. Such structures of exclusion had always existed, of course, especially at the top, but in recent decades fences have become fortresses.

If that mechanic’s daughter wishes to pursue something higher, more noble, for a career, what options does she really have? Likely just two: She can seek employment at her local church, which is hard to get. Or she can join the army.
posted by theodolite at 12:36 PM on September 30, 2016 [26 favorites]


Obama could casually mention that he has no intention of pardoning Trump at any point.
posted by drezdn at 12:36 PM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]




What is he now, Batman? He really turned up the America as Gotham, the "doomed city can only be saved by me," plot to 11.

MEANWHILE, AT STATELY TRUMP TOWER...
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:38 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


cell divide: Perhaps he's on the same stuff as McAfee.
Three years later, Men’s Journal writer Stephen Rodrick visited McAfee at his home in Tennessee, where McAfee dragged him outside to show him proof that he was being shadowed by hit men from a Mexican cartel. “All they eat is cream cheese,” McAfee told him, scanning the leaf litter in the woods. “I find cream cheese packets everywhere. If there’s cream cheese, I know the cartel has been here.”
And that's the fun part of the psychosis. Thanks, McAfee, I've added another drug to my "never, ever, ever try" list.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:39 PM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


"For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!


Did his medical report mention his prostrate?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:40 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


@realdonaldtrump: "For those few people knocking me for tweeting at three o'clock in the morning, at least you know I will be there, awake, to answer the call!"

Yeah right, like you'd put down that radio before you're totally done taking it apart.
posted by phearlez at 12:40 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Probably a good place to link to James' "The Moral Equivalent of War".
Let me illustrate my idea more concretely. There is nothing to make one indignant in the mere fact that life is hard, that men should toil and suffer pain. The planetary conditions once for all are such, and we can stand it. But that so many men, by mere accidents of birth and opportunity, should have a life of nothing else but toil and pain and hardness and inferiority imposed upon them, should have no vacation, while others natively no more deserving never get any taste of this campaigning life at all, — this is capable of arousing indignation in reflective minds. It may end by seeming shameful to all of us that some of us have nothing but campaigning, and others nothing but unmanly ease. If now — and this is my idea — there were, instead of military conscription, a conscription of the whole youthful population to form for a certain number of years a part of the army enlisted against Nature, the injustice would tend to be evened out, and numerous other goods to the commonwealth would remain blind as the luxurious classes now are blind, to man's relations to the globe he lives on, and to the permanently sour and hard foundations of his higher life. To coal and iron mines, to freight trains, to fishing fleets in December, to dishwashing, clotheswashing, and windowwashing, to road-building and tunnel-making, to foundries and stoke-holes, and to the frames of skyscrapers, would our gilded youths be drafted off, according to their choice, to get the childishness knocked out of them, and to come back into society with healthier sympathies and soberer ideas. They would have paid their blood-tax, done their own part in the immemorial human warfare against nature; they would tread the earth more proudly, the women would value them more highly, they would be better fathers and teachers of the following generation.
posted by klarck at 12:41 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Point made. HRC has found a way to use Patriotism! to make the left defend conscription as a Moral Good.
posted by stolyarova at 12:42 PM on September 30, 2016


I would not defend conscription, for the record, even to civil service. I do applaud the notion of rolling out a nationally coordinated and broadly accessible program for it, though.
posted by Superplin at 12:44 PM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


Actually, this is kind of what I'm worried HRC's successful reactivation of Democratic patriotism might lead to - a world in which both left and right agree that conscription into the service of a nation is a patriotic duty rather than an essential violation of human rights.

I think there's a fundamental split on the left that would prevent that from being the case (and with good reason, too).

As proposed, the National Service Reserve looks like an excellent idea. Mission creep and HRC's deep nationalistic/patriotic/civic belief that every citizen should serve their country (as stated in It Takes a Village, which I'm reading right now) could easily lead the NSR to become... more.

I'm not exactly sure what "mission creep" could occur, though. Conscription came about because of military threats. Unless, say, every dam in the US suddenly was simultaneously in imminent danger of bursting, there's no analog for other kinds of public service. As for HRC's belief, "should" does not mean "must," and I honestly think she means it more as guidelines than actual rules. A lot of government workers see themselves--rightly, IMO--as performing their duties as a civil service to the country, which is why a lot of libertarian complaints about (and in the case of a lot of conservatives, stirring violence against) government workers seem really nasty and divisive. Seeing as how she's been involved in working for the government for such a long time, I have no reason to believe that she or any currently-serving civilian Democrat thinks otherwise.

It is, however, exactly the kind of thing I'd be worried about someone like Trump who hasn't spent any time working for the government. It'd also be worrying coming from someone like a Paul Ryan or Ted Cruz, who believe only their work is worthwhile but that of most government workers is parasitic or even dangerous.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:45 PM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


Yeah, tweeting at 3AM somehow became identified as "dynamic leader doesn't need much sleep" rather than "gets up to pee a couple times a night and tweets while he's at it". It's all front with this one.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 12:46 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Point made. HRC has found a way to use Patriotism! to make the left defend conscription as a Moral Good.

That's your shadow, not another boxer.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:46 PM on September 30, 2016 [83 favorites]


What is he now, Batman?

To quote myself from Twitter:

"One is a rich fascist with anger mgmt. issues, the other is a hypercompetent strategist prepared for anything. Together they are Batman."
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 12:47 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Point made. HRC has found a way to use Patriotism! to make the left defend conscription as a Moral Good.

Oh, come on. Nobody is making that argument.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:47 PM on September 30, 2016 [37 favorites]


Ya know, the real danger of the Agriculture Department and the FDA is that one day they could start forcing us to eat healthy.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 12:47 PM on September 30, 2016 [30 favorites]


Yeah, tweeting at 3AM somehow became identified as "dynamic leader doesn't need much sleep" rather than "gets up to pee a couple times a night and tweets while he's at it". It's all front with this one.

He's bragged about how little he sleeps a ton of times though. That's one of the reasons these amphetamine rumors keep cropping up. I really wouldn't be surprised if he actually doesn't go to sleep before 3 most nights.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:48 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Superplin, as noted, I agree with the idea - it would be great for repairing infrastructure and helping young people get a solid start in life. But I'd be vastly comforted if it were paired with a complete elimination of any future possibility of the Draft.

Pope Guilty, did you not read that essay klarck linked to?
posted by stolyarova at 12:48 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I pretty much despise Trump. He stands for everything I think is Wrong - he's a 1%er, oppresses women, non-whites, the handicapped, Muslims, and presumably many other groups. His thinking and behavior are exactly what led to the Great Recession. The hypocrisy of a fat old guy being horrible about a woman who put on some weight - like, about 15 pounds or so - is nasty. His hypocrisy calling her crooked Hillary when he's done business in Cuba, doesn't pay workers (fraud, theft of service), says she's ill and then sniffles into his mic, questions the Clinton Foundation when his foundation is clearly sketchy, etc., kind of blows my mind. I can only assume any observers of the election assume the US is collectively mentally ill.

The only thing about him I've appreciated, at all, is that he's known to not drink or use drugs because that's what killed his brother. There is no evidence that he's using cocaine or other drugs. It's a nasty smear. Criticizing him is so easy. He provides so much material on a daily basis that any competent journalist should be insanely busy. Let's not smear him without documentation.
posted by theora55 at 12:48 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Unless, say, every dam in the US suddenly was simultaneously in imminent danger of bursting, there's no analog for other kinds of public service.

Can we please stop talking about Donald's prostate?!
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:48 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wait, I'm supposed to be defending conscription as a Moral Good now? I didn't get that memo. When did this happen?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:49 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


is that he's known to not drink or use drugs because that's what killed his brother.

There is no evidence that Donald Trump doesn't drink or do drugs, either.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:49 PM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


Pope Guilty, did you not read that essay klarck linked to?

The one written 106 years ago by this guy?
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:51 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


There is no evidence that Donald Trump isn't a hundred and forty lobsters in an orange Hefty bag
posted by beerperson at 12:51 PM on September 30, 2016 [55 favorites]




I'm surprised Randy Quaid isn't supporting Gary Johnson.

I'm surprised he isn't Vermin Supreme's running mate.
posted by rocket88 at 12:52 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald, there's this thing I keep seeing advertised on tv called prosvent, it's probably a scam, but I figure that if it is, you'd appreciate the hustle.
posted by drezdn at 12:52 PM on September 30, 2016


"he's known to not drink or use drugs because that's what killed his brother. There is no evidence that he's using cocaine or other drugs. It's a nasty smear."

They're not "drugs" if a doctor prescribes them. I can 100% believe that Trump would justify amphetamine use by using this logic.
posted by komara at 12:53 PM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


WaPo: Can ‘SNL’ take down Donald Trump? Is it going to try?
“The mainstream media and specifically NBC has gone too easy on Trump,” said Anthony Atamanuik, who toured America and Europe with a surreal, dark Trump impression and has optimistically planned a “last rally” for the character on Nov. 3. “I’ll sound like Trump for a second: ‘There’s something going on with NBC and Trump.’ ”

Added Andy Richter, Conan O’Brien’s sidekick on his TBS talk show: “Watching his hair get tousled was a bit more shocking than seeing him host SNL. Back when he hosted SNL, it was questionable. Now, treating him in the same way that you treat Judge Judy would seem irresponsible. It’s not funny anymore. There’s just too much blatant white supremacy being enabled by this campaign.”
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:53 PM on September 30, 2016 [35 favorites]


There is no evidence that Donald Trump isn't a hundred and forty lobsters in an orange Hefty bag

Did you mean void crabs?
posted by stolyarova at 12:54 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


WaPo: Can ‘SNL’ take down Donald Trump? Is it going to try?

They have Alec Baldwin playing him. I have a feeling he's going to try, even if the cue cards don't.
posted by Etrigan at 12:56 PM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


hello is there anything at all suggesting this National Service thing isn't completely voluntary or is the conscription thing just a totally made up bugbear
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:58 PM on September 30, 2016 [42 favorites]


I'd be vastly comforted if it were paired with a complete elimination of any future possibility of the Draft.

She repeatedly mentions it as a volunteer program and compares it to similar volunteer programs. By this metric, she should also be telling people she's not going to nationalize every job.

Please please please, left, remember the importance of civil rights.

Again, no one touting the volunteer service plan is asking for, supporting, or doing anything else to make this compulsory.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:58 PM on September 30, 2016 [31 favorites]


Please please please, left, remember the importance of civil rights. You already gave up with the NSA, even though it was TREASON! when Bush engaged in warrantless wiretapping of a few phones. And now HRC wants an Intelligence Surge and nobody here even squeaks about it. :(

You are the one who brought up conscription. Not Hillary Clinton. Not other MeFites. You. You brought it up as though it were a real possibility under consideration and have been freaking out at people about it and talking like Hillary Clinton proposed it and has somehow persuaded MeFites to endorse it. You are swinging at shadows that you are casting.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:58 PM on September 30, 2016 [73 favorites]


stolyarova: "Mission creep and HRC's deep nationalistic/patriotic/civic belief that every citizen should serve their country (as stated in It Takes a Village, which I'm reading right now) could easily lead the NSR to become... more."

One other thing to keep in mind: this does not appear to me to be the kind of thing a president can push through unilaterally. Something like this would have to go through congress, most likely controlled by the Republicans. Checks and balances and all that. I mean, as good an idea as an NSR might or might not be, it doesn't even exist yet and there's really no guarantee that it will ever exist, given Republican control of congress. Hell, congress can barely pass a budget to keep the lights on. And recall that their first order of business when Obama was first elected was to ensure that he'd be a one-term president by blocking every single thing he wanted. Do we think that they'd be more receptive to a Clinton administration?
posted by mhum at 12:58 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I remember the first time Donald hosted SNL - it was a pretty blatant way to get him comfortable live in the same studio that would be used a week later for the live finale of the first season of the Apprentice.

The other time, last year, well, from time to time, some NBC exec pulls a bunch of strings to get a friend in as host. Sometimes, it goes well. Other times, we have Donald Trump.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:58 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


It would take a literal act of Congress to bring back any kind of draft. No one serious is proposing this.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 12:59 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


I like how the relief that arrived with the glory of Monday evening and subsequent brilliant polling numbers has brought out some of the best goofiness of Metafilter.
posted by angrycat at 12:59 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


WaPo: Can ‘SNL’ take down Donald Trump? Is it going to try?

I know Lorne Michaels thinks about these issues in a serious way. He and Ferrell have said they thought Ferrell's Bush impression was a major factor in the election because it humanized his good ol' boy stupidity and made him seem likable. I can't imagine Alec Baldwin would sign on for a soft touch approach to Trump. We'll see. I'll definitely be watching.
posted by dis_integration at 12:59 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Look, just as soon as somebody starts seriously arguing for an expansion of the draft or for national service to be made mandatory, I will be out on the streets with a sign and a megaphone, I promise you. But given that nobody has made such a proposition or even hinted that they would like to make one, raising that specter sounds honestly a little paranoid.

I am 100% against the draft, even the vestigial version that we currently have. Firm opposition. But I'm definitely in favor of our government providing an opportunity for citizens to do useful work for the public good on a totally voluntary basis. I did Americorps when I was younger, and I found it to be a great experience where I was able to do some real good. I would jump at the chance to do that kind of work on an ongoing, part-time basis.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:59 PM on September 30, 2016 [35 favorites]


They're not "drugs" if a doctor prescribes them. I can 100% believe that Trump would justify amphetamine use by using this logic.

This. And there actually is evidence that he was a patient of a notorious amphetamine-pushing Dr. Feelgood "weight loss doctor" in the past. I can think of no better reason that he'd have a random freaky-deaky gastroenterologist as his primary care physician than that dude will fill your phentermine scripts on demand with no questions asked.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:00 PM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


boy is bringing up this imaginary conscription thing a way to ruin a good intention and also ask HRC to fix all the things, RIGHT NOW.

"yea it's cool and all but why hasn't she eliminated the draft yet?"
posted by zutalors! at 1:00 PM on September 30, 2016 [27 favorites]


You're right, Pope Guilty, mhum, et. al., and I'm sorry. Conscription scares the shit out of me and the thing I like least about HRC (and Obama's presidency) is the abandonment of the Civil Rights left - prosecution of whistleblowers, ramping up the surveillance state, and so on.

Put me in a basket with Noam Chomsky and Larry Lessig, I guess.
posted by stolyarova at 1:01 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


He's bragged about how little he sleeps a ton of times though. That's one of the reasons these amphetamine rumors keep cropping up. I really wouldn't be surprised if he actually doesn't go to sleep before 3 most nights.

I wonder what time he wakes up. What a strange guy.

Regarding SNL, he's beyond parody. He's unmockable. I don't think SNL can do anything about it.
posted by cell divide at 1:02 PM on September 30, 2016


But really it was that William James article that set me off. Because that's exactly the kind of rhetoric that would be used to justify this kind of conscription. :(
posted by stolyarova at 1:03 PM on September 30, 2016


Pope Guilty, did you not read that essay klarck linked to? The one written 106 years ago by this guy?

That's what frightens me most about Hillary Clinton. That she'll dig up William James and conscript him in to National Service.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:04 PM on September 30, 2016 [40 favorites]


Regarding SNL, he's beyond parody. He's unmockable. I don't think SNL can do anything about it.

Except walkout en masse before (or during) the live broadcast.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:04 PM on September 30, 2016


Put me in a basket with Noam Chomsky and Larry Lessig, I guess.

The basket of intellectuals.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 1:05 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


I guess I'm that rare lefty pacifist who is not opposed to a draft (with a "nat'l service instead of military" option) -- I really think it would decrease the number of non-US casualties worldwide. Currently the 1%-ers don't have any skin in the game, their kids are not going to die in far-off lands.

Regardless, if this National Service Reserve thing happens, I will sign up! (Assuming they let middle-aged guys join.)
posted by phliar at 1:05 PM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


Halp me metafilter! Election-related ethical dilemma: I'm in a crowded airport trying to charge my phone, no outlets to be found. Guy wearing Hillary for Prison T shirt brought his own extension cord to the airport and offered to let me charge. Use Electrical Outlet of Misogyny, or spend hours unable to read this thread?
posted by medusa at 1:05 PM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


That's what frightens me most about Hillary Clinton. That she'll dig up William James and conscript him in to National Service.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:04 PM on September 30


eponysterical
posted by Salieri at 1:05 PM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


I donated to Clinton's campaign again today because when the FEC releases the monthly report for September it will be the last report before the election. I want September to be a great month with lots of visible support for her.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:06 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm expecting a repeat of the "actor just reads the words the moron candidate actually said" bit from Sarah Palin's interview, only with exaggerated reaction shots from whoever plays Hillary and Lester Holt.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:06 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Use Electrical Outlet of Misogyny, or spend hours unable to read this thread?

I say use it. Fuck the patriarchy by stealing their power, literally in this case.
posted by palomar at 1:07 PM on September 30, 2016 [50 favorites]



Here's a lighthearded moment for you. "Bill, let's go!" Pres. Obama beckons former Pres. Bill Clinton to board Air Force One after funeral of Shimon Peres


What are the odds that at this or any other time Obama was thinking, I'm glad I'm not married to this dude. Or being president for the next eight years, actually. Better you than me, Hillary
posted by angrycat at 1:07 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yeah, use the juice to order up some Hillary Clinton swag.
posted by notyou at 1:08 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I guess I'm that rare lefty pacifist who is not opposed to a draft (with a "nat'l service instead of military" option) -- I really think it would decrease the number of non-US casualties worldwide. Currently the 1%-ers don't have any skin in the game, their kids are not going to die in far-off lands.

I get where you're going with this but historically the children of the rich either get exempted or they go into, for example, the Texas Air National Guard. They only go into combat if, like John Kerry, they really, really want to.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:09 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm expecting a repeat of the 'actor just reads the words the moron candidate actually said' bit from Sarah Palin's interview, only with exaggerated reaction shots from whoever plays Hillary and Lester Holt.

And sniffling. Lots and lots of sniffling.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:09 PM on September 30, 2016


Using the rationale Ayn Rand did when she cashed her Social Security checks:
Social Security is not voluntary. Your participation is forced through payroll taxes, with no choice to opt out even if you think the program harmful to your interests. If you consider such forced “participation” unjust, as Rand does, the harm inflicted on you would only be compounded if your announcement of the program’s injustice precludes you from collecting Social Security.

This being said, your moral integrity does require that you view the funds only as (partial) restitution for all that has been taken from you by such welfare schemes and that you continue, sincerely, to oppose the welfare state.
Replace Social Security with "having to live with you Trumpboots and your patriarchy" and take his power.
posted by stolyarova at 1:10 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Regarding the first debate, there were issues regarding Donald Trump's audio that affected the sound level in the debate hall.

It means what we all heard on the radio and tv was fine, and Donny's lack of foldback threw him off his game. SAD.
posted by mikelieman at 1:10 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


I donated to Clinton's campaign again today because when the FEC releases the monthly report for September it will be the last report before the election. I want September to be a great month with lots of visible support for her.

this comment just made somebody else (me) donate again, too
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:10 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Which means he sure better not try to sing the National Anthem at home plate.
posted by mikelieman at 1:11 PM on September 30, 2016


WaPo: Can ‘SNL’ take down Donald Trump? Is it going to try?

Given NBC's longstanding relationship with Trump and in particular their comedy shows', this looks like a perfect example of Betteridge's Law of Headlines.
posted by Doktor Zed at 1:12 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


theora55: There is no evidence that he's using cocaine or other drugs. It's a nasty smear. Criticizing him is so easy.

And yet you just said:

I can only assume any observers of the election assume the US is collectively mentally ill.

Not only is using "mentally ill" the same way just as much of a smear against the people targeted as well as people who actually have diagnoses, but everyone in the United States needs to understand really clearly that the events of this election are not the result of some involuntary condition or other responsibility-vacating circumstance: the segment of the population and political class supporting Trump is willing to turn you over to fascists to achieve their political objectives.

The behavior on the right that has for decades merely appeared to indicate that this would be the case if the opportunity arose, is now openly confirmed to be the case, and we all need to remember that in the future and hold it up whenever rightward-pushing changes are in question, no matter what happens in this election.
posted by XMLicious at 1:13 PM on September 30, 2016 [21 favorites]


I donated to Clinton's campaign again today because when the FEC releases the monthly report for September it will be the last report before the election. I want September to be a great month with lots of visible support for her.

>this comment just made somebody else (me) donate again, too


me too, thanks

PEER PRESSURE
posted by phunniemee at 1:14 PM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


Darrell Hammond's Trump was already perfect. Sad.
posted by ian1977 at 1:14 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]



Here's a lighthearded moment for you. "Bill, let's go!" Pres. Obama beckons former Pres. Bill Clinton to board Air Force One after funeral of Shimon Peres


That was pretty funny. Cats herding cats.
posted by zutalors! at 1:15 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


theora55: "There is no evidence that he's using cocaine or other drugs. It's a nasty smear. Criticizing him is so easy."

There's a family history of dementia, and given his own words in the public record, the questions about his competence are legitimate.

I think the fact that he hasn't released an independent certification that he's not suffering from dementia is telling. If he's not hiding anything, why isn't he simply talking a physical and releasing the results?
posted by mikelieman at 1:16 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


TPM Inside Trump's Machado Rage Spiral:
Trump becomes unhinged whenever he is challenged or insulted or injured by someone he perceives as beneath him in the gender or racial hierarchy. The list is almost endless: Hillary Clinton, Alicia Machado, Obama, the Khans, Judge Curiel. Trump is a bully who lives in a zero sum psychic economy of dominance. There are dominators and the dominated. That operates with white men too, as we saw in the Republican primaries. But when the injury comes from someone he believes is beneath him, there is a special intensity and charge.
...
As of this morning polls already showed that the debate and its immediate fallout had moved public opinion decisively in Clinton's favor, though of course the tide has turned before. The sum of all these facts - the debate defeat, the fight with Machado, the faltering polls - seem to be propelling Trump into a new rage spiral, rooted in narcissistic injuries, seemingly catalyzing itself, reinforcing itself in spiraling cycles of rage and self-injury. As we stumble and march toward election day, the pressure on everyone grows. But the effects on Trump seem greater and the assaults are more compressed in time. The exposure is greater. I'm curious whether he can right himself before his next encounter with Clinton.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:17 PM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


If Hillary Clinton could resurrect the Works Progress Administration, I would be so in favor of it. Since the WPA employed artists and writers, it would also be a great way for working-class people who can't afford to do an unpaid internship to actually use their craft in service to their country while getting paid for it. National service doesn't have to be about joining the military.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [86 favorites]


This shit doesn't end in November, not by a long shot.

For the love of everything anti-fascist and white supremacist, please please please vote in the midterms.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [29 favorites]


historically the children of the rich get exempted [from the draft] or join the Texas Air National Guard

Yet another beautiful theory destroyed by fact.

I guess I'm assuming we can implement such a law fairly.... which is why I'm not the one running for office.
posted by phliar at 1:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Darrell Hammond's Trump was already perfect. Sad.

For certain values of perfect, sure. But it was also a doofy, likeable caricature most of the time. Killam's version was a little more acidic, and as much as I love Hammond's work, I was sad to see it shelved last season.

Baldwin has a mean side that I am hoping to see deployed in the service of good tomorrow night.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


what we all heard on the radio and tv was fine, and Donny's lack of foldback threw him off his game.

Yeah, except you don't really need monitors unless there's a noisy band behind you. He was just whining.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:20 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Regarding SNL, he's beyond parody. He's unmockable. I don't think SNL can do anything about it.

Do a sketch where he is poor and trying to hide it.
posted by achrise at 1:23 PM on September 30, 2016 [43 favorites]


On the point made above, that Clinton's disability speech didn't get enough coverage because "she didn't take this opportunity to push hard against Donald Trump" -- someone on her team seems to have been paying attention. CNN headline on the service speech: On service, Clinton separates Trump from past GOP presidents
posted by neroli at 1:23 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Clinton launches final-stage turnout plan:
As the last full month of this presidential contest begins, Hillary Clinton is shifting toward a pure base-turnout strategy, inching away from her all-out effort to lure disaffected Republicans in favor of a traditional get-Democrats-to-the-polls effort that mirrors Barack Obama’s 2012 game plan.

Gone are Clinton’s regular references to winning over moderate conservatives and her sly allusions to GOP leaders meant to give defecting Republicans a framework for abandoning their nominee. With 39 days to go, Brooklyn headquarters and battleground state operatives are activating the massive surrogate machinery, a heavy early voting push, and a large-scale registration offensive they think they need to secure a win in November.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:23 PM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


I say use it. Fuck the patriarchy by stealing their power, literally in this case.

POWER SEIZED
posted by medusa at 1:24 PM on September 30, 2016 [36 favorites]


Some good news here in Wake County, NC (Raleigh area)

Wake Co NC voted absentees 47 days pre-elex:

2016 1,739 D 42.4% R 30.1 U 27.2
2012 185 D 32.4% R 38.4 U 29.2

up 940%, 18% swing to D

I wanted to vote absentee this year but my husband likes doing it in person and the early voting is just a few blocks from our home. So we will be voting in person probably October 21. Early voting in our district starts October 20 and runs til November 5.

I'm getting excited...
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:29 PM on September 30, 2016 [21 favorites]


Never worried about anyone conceding an election or giving a concession speech before this presidential election.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:30 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


FYI, if you want any Hillary swag before the filing deadline, you can get 20% off in the online store using code HRC2016.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:31 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


stolyarova: "Conscription scares the shit out of me"

If it helps at all, my impression is that of all the potential weird things that can happen in the US, conscription is not among the most likely. Unlike many European and Asian countries, I don't think the US has ever had a peacetime conscription program (i.e.: not linked to an active, shooting war). Even at the height of the Cold War, I don't think there was any kind of program where every able-bodied male citizen would have to spend a year in the military or national guard or whatever. It just doesn't seem to be part of American culture, either general or political.
posted by mhum at 1:31 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pema Levy: Trump Praised Saudi Arabia's Sharia Law for Making It Easy for Men to Get Divorced
In order to avoid admitting to cheating on his wife, Donald Trump invoked his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination 97 times during his divorce proceedings with Ivana Trump in 1990, the Huffington Post reported Friday. So it should come as little surprise that Trump had kind words for a system that allows men to divorce their wives without going to court: Saudi Arabia's sharia law.

The Republican presidential candidate praised the Islamic law, or sharia, system during a 60-second syndicated daily radio commentary called "Trumped!" that he recorded daily from 2004 to 2008. In a January 2008 segment, Trump discussed a news story of a Saudi man who had divorced his wife for watching a television show while alone at home because, in Trump's telling, the husband considered it tantamount to being alone with a strange man.

"Men in Saudi Arabia have the authority to divorce their wives without going to the courts," Trump said. "I guess that would also mean they don't need prenuptial agreements. The fact is, no courts, no judges—Saudi Arabia sounds like a very good place to get a divorce."
posted by zombieflanders at 1:38 PM on September 30, 2016 [23 favorites]


Melissasaurus and others, you finally got me. I donated, and picked up Never Trump buttons and a shirt. One for you today, you made a difference, as I'm a "new donor" and I'm sure that makes it extra shiny.
posted by clever sheep at 1:41 PM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


Regarding the first debate, there were issues regarding Donald Trump's audio that affected the sound level in the debate hall.
Just how much has the Trump campaign been badgering the CPD to say something that they felt compelled to put out this utterly meaningless statement days later? I wonder if he threatened to walk on the next debate or something.
posted by zachlipton at 1:41 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]




Trump Pleaded the Fifth 97 Times to Avoid Admitting to Adultery:
Over the course of five depositions that summer, he was asked approximately 100 questions related to marital infidelity. He pleaded the Fifth on 97 of them.
...
On Wednesday, Trump likened anyone who takes the Fifth to a criminal. “So there are five of them taking the Fifth Amendment, like you see on the mob, right?” he said at another rally in Iowa, inflating the number by two. “The mob takes the Fifth Amendment. If you’re innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”
posted by kirkaracha at 1:44 PM on September 30, 2016 [30 favorites]


Hopefully, his mic at the next debate won't constantly interrupt, brag about not paying taxes, dismiss the concerns of black voters, or petulantly dredge up an old feud with Rosie O'Donnell!
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:45 PM on September 30, 2016 [45 favorites]


I did notice there was a problem where you kept hearing Donald's voice when Hillary was talking.
posted by ckape at 1:49 PM on September 30, 2016 [98 favorites]


@JYSexton: If Trump's honest in deposition, he's paying no attention to his business. Good news as the presidency doesn't require multitasking.

@BenjySarlin: Supporters of the Republican nominee for President of the United States are sending me PornHub links in an effort to back up his 3 AM tweet.

No connection between the two links, I just thought they were both interesting/funny.

Melissasaurus and others, you finally got me. I donated,

I'm glad I brought it up. I was a bit reluctant as it seemed a bit too self-congratulatory but I was hoping for an echo effect.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:49 PM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


I do not fear a return of the draft, for many reasons; I started to write them out and realized that was sounding more like a blog post than a comment. TL;DR version: the military is not designed for true physical nor cultural diversity, nor is it built to cope with tumblr-and-twitter publicity.

The draft requires a base acceptance that military service is an honor, even if it's not one that was sought, and that its goals are worthy even if they're not understood by individual soldiers. Without those, it shifts from "joining an elite organization" to "prison sentence with life-threatening labor" in the minds of the participants. If there are enough of them, that's what the public will believe as well, especially after the first wave of suicides.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:50 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


'Tis a poor craftsman who blames their tools....
posted by mikelieman at 1:51 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


FYI, if you want any Hillary swag before the filing deadline, you can get 20% off in the online store using code HRC2016.

They still don't have that "Khaleesi is coming to Westeros!" shirt I want.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:51 PM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


welp, thanks to in-thread peer pressure i chipped in a donation to help beef up the FEC filing a teensy bit (and also to get that sweet October Supporter swag package they were touting on the donation page, smart move), and then the 20% store discount was mentioned upthread. oh, lord. didn't need to know that, but i've been eyeing that 45 button set for a while... and the shattered glass ceiling champagne flutes would go nicely with the shot glasses i already have on order. i have a feeling i'm going to want them for a special winter morning in the near future.
posted by palomar at 1:53 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Like maybe there was a problem in the hall but he obviously heard everything. And was easy enough to be heard.
posted by zutalors! at 1:53 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I haaate the thing about the mic because you know he is going to harp on it endlessly and twist it to make him look like a persecuted victim in a rigged election. UGH. Just give him an extra 5 minutes at the beginning of the next debate to bloviate about himself. He'll be pleased and it will turn off that many more voters, Win! Win!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:53 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Commission on Presidential Debates: Regarding the first debate, there were issues regarding Donald Trump's audio that affected the sound level in the debate hall.

Well, if Trump was looking for an excuse to opt out of the rest of the debates, the CPD just handed him an alibi on a silver platter.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:54 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Actually, a Malfunction Did Affect Donald Trump’s Voice at the Debate (NYT)

So the CPD released one meaningless sentence and the NYT turned that into 197 words that in no way impart any additional information. I feel stupider than I did before I clicked.
posted by zachlipton at 1:55 PM on September 30, 2016 [31 favorites]


"Men in Saudi Arabia have the authority to divorce their wives without going to the courts," Trump said. "I guess that would also mean they don't need prenuptial agreements. The fact is, no courts, no judges—Saudi Arabia sounds like a very good place to get a divorce."

...if you're a man trying to screw over the woman you married.
posted by zarq at 1:56 PM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


The issue with the mic was that it made him sound even more impressive and amazing, which is why he won according to all of the non-fake polls
posted by theodolite at 1:56 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah, that's why I added the source, so people could consider that before clicking, zachlipton.
posted by zutalors! at 1:56 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Daniel Dale: Donald Trump’s debate defeat has sent him into a raging tailspin
“This is the worst post-debate spin in world history,” Rick Tyler, a MSNBC political analyst and a former spokesman for Trump rival Ted Cruz, said in an interview. “The debate was bad enough. And he just has compounded all his problems. The Clinton camp must be overjoyed. They are playing him like a fiddle.”

Tyler added: “Everybody’s been saying, ‘Is this the thing that does him in?’ The answer is: yes, this is it. He’s a joke, he’s a laughingstock, he’s a punchline. He will not recover from this.”

Trump has defied numerous previous predictions of doom. But his behaviour, including an instantly notorious Friday tweet in which he urged people to watch a “sex tape,” is also alarming allies who had been heartened by his discipline — that is, his relative approximation of discipline — in the weeks leading up to the debate.
Sidenote: This happens to me every time. I see a new article attributed to The Star and I automatically think: "Yecch. Not clicking on that. Oh wait. The Toronto Star. Daniel Dale!"
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:00 PM on September 30, 2016 [20 favorites]


The statement also says the issue was in the hall. Did this make any difference for the TV broadcast?
posted by cmfletcher at 2:01 PM on September 30, 2016


The statement also says the issue was in the hall. Did this make any difference for the TV broadcast?

They didn't say it did, so. But yes, what a terrible, vague, unhelpful statement.
posted by cashman at 2:03 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


zutalors!, I'm not upset that you you posted it--I'm glad you did actually--just frustrated at the opaqueness behind the CPD speaking in riddles.
posted by zachlipton at 2:03 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm actually glad about the mic statement. We just know Donald is going to keep bringing it up, and the general response is going to be "What a whiner." Not something that's going to play well with his soft support.
posted by Francis at 2:03 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


cjelli: Regarding the first debate, there were issues regarding Donald Trump's audio that affected the sound level in the debate hall.

As Stephen Colbert joked, there was clearly something wrong with that microphone. Who left that thing on? Ba-da-bing!

Well, if Trump was looking for an excuse to opt out of the rest of the debates, the CPD just handed him an alibi on a silver platter.

Really? "My sound levels weren't perfect, I'm not going to debate again." I second octobersurprise's suggested first question from Hillary: Donald, would you like to trade mics before we start?
posted by filthy light thief at 2:04 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


If the microphone had not malfunctioned...

...And had he not still interrupted his opponent over 40 times. Dayenu.
...And had he not still have avoided answering as many questions as possible. Dayenu.
...And had he not still come across to everyone watching as a petulant, whiny crybaby? Dayenu.
...And had Grandpa Trump not offered us "The Cyber" parable. Dayenu.
...And had he not sounded like a raving lunatic on stage... Dayenu.
...And had he not used the phrase "a very anti-police judge" (and sounded like a fucking moron besides Dayenu.
...And had he not sniffed throughout the evening like a cocaine junkie... Dayenu.
...And had he not threatened to refuse support of our allies in NATO... Dayenu.
posted by zarq at 2:05 PM on September 30, 2016 [38 favorites]


The answer is: yes, this is it. He’s a joke, he’s a laughingstock, he’s a punchline. He will not recover from this.”

Ooh, I hope so. It was noted in another thread (many sorrys for not tracking down where, or by whom) that "Candidate is done now; game over" requires not just outrageous acts by the candidate, but an agreement by the media that that's their message. It doesn't matter how big or small the campaign gaffes are; what kills a campaign is the media saying, "well, I guess that's it for [candidate]," a flurry of "yep, looks like" from others, followed by in-depth analyses of the gaffe in question.

Some candidates might pull through this, but it's not like Trump will fail to double down on the sexism or racism. If the MSM message is now "watch Trump flounder" instead of "Trump shakes off accusations and keeps campaigning," we may get to watch the downward spiral that kills his campaign.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:07 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


From Clinton's FL speech:

@HillaryClinton: Trump "finds it a lot easier to insult women than to talk to the president of Mexico about building a wall.” —Hillary
posted by chris24 at 2:07 PM on September 30, 2016 [23 favorites]




CNN Trump advisers weigh putting Christie in charge of debate prep
Some of Donald Trump's advisers are discussing an overhaul in how he prepares for his second face-off with Hillary Clinton, and one option being floated internally is asking Chris Christie to take a leading role to get the Republican nominee ready.
The New Jersey governor, a long-time friend of Trump's, is one of "the few" in the billionaire's inner circle who has always been straight with him, and was "brutally honest" about his shortcomings after this week's debate, according to a source familiar with the discussions.

There's no sign that everyone in the campaign agrees this is the right path forward. There's been a round of recriminations within the campaign amid fallout from the debate.
Christie told CNN no request has been made."I have not been asked to do anything new, and as far as I know, there is no new debate prep scheduled," he said.
[my bold]

Sounds like his inner circle don't know what to do with him. He wants to pretend that he won the last debate. He wants to pretend that the way to win the election is to reach out to his fan base. He wants to pretend that he is prepared right now to debate, to be President, to do whatever the hell he wants. This is a side effect of having been surrounded by sycophants your whole life.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:11 PM on September 30, 2016 [26 favorites]


FWIW, this is the first election my wife and I have ever had serious discussions about (it all started with my discovering she's for weed legalization.) Anyway, she's a low-key liberal, and hasn't ever been a big Hillary fan (whatever that means) but she (and a lot of her normally staunch Republican, church-going, female friends) are so scared shitless over the possibility of a Trump presidency that they're going with Hillary. As she put it, some of her friends would rather not vote at all but, here in Indiana, not voting would, de facto, be a Trump vote. Indiana's in play, kids. At least for the Presidency.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:11 PM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


Trump has defied numerous previous predictions of doom. But his behaviour, including an instantly notorious Friday tweet in which he urged people to watch a “sex tape,” is also alarming allies who had been heartened by his discipline

You know, in driving I was taught to steer into the skid in order to regain control faster. The lesson I am taking from this is that the same advice does not apply to politics.
posted by nubs at 2:13 PM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


Really? "My sound levels weren't perfect, I'm not going to debate again."

I was thinking something more along the lines of:

"CPD admits to mic tampering! How much $ did Clinton FDN pay commissioners to rig debate for Crooked Hillary? If they can't guarantee fair contest, maybe I won't participate?"

—posted at 4:12 AM
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:16 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


@realJDonaldTrump: While Hillary profits off the rigged system, I am fighting for you! Remember the simple phrase: #FollowTheMoney

@LibyaLiberty
(Hend Amry): We can't. You won't share your taxes.

He is trying to make this "Follow the Money" thing happen. He used it three times in his speech last night. Unfortunately for him Follow the Money leads right back to Trump.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:18 PM on September 30, 2016 [28 favorites]


(But I guess we'll just have to wait and see how the press treats this very vague statement over the next few days.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:18 PM on September 30, 2016


You forgot: SAD!
posted by zakur at 2:19 PM on September 30, 2016


HRC interacting with voters during the scheduled town hall for 90 minutes, by herself, because her opponent stood up the American people.....not sure how that would put a W in Trump's column (aside from within his own head).
posted by melissasaurus at 2:20 PM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


Peter Serafinowicz, Homer J. Trump
posted by kirkaracha at 2:21 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


HRC interacting with voters during the scheduled town hall for 90 minutes, by herself, because her opponent stood up the American people

I am so, so, dreaming of exactly that. I know it won't happen, but it would be so totally awesome.
posted by dnash at 2:21 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hey gang, hold up a moment. Are we sure that Trump doesn't think he's running for Grand Nagus? Maybe he checked the wrong box on a form.

(Not that he'd be any better at that, but it would explain a few things)

(Yes, I'm surviving this election season with humor; why do you ask?)
posted by Servo5678 at 2:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


The draft requires a base acceptance that military service is an honor, even if it's not one that was sought, and that its goals are worthy even if they're not understood by individual soldiers. Without those, it shifts from "joining an elite organization" to "prison sentence with life-threatening labor" in the minds of the participants.

If I understand my history right, that shift is precisely what took place over the course of the Vietnam War. I suspect that perception of military service might be permanently lost.

---
Look - In my extremely feckless youth, like three or four years ago, I seriously considered joining the military. I didn't know what to do with myself. My cousin joined the Marines for similar reasons, and it seemed to work out well for him; he got technical training, mustered out without much psychological damage, and now works for Boeing. There's a particular point I've seen people make on Facebook, over and over and over: "you whiners who want free college tuition can GET IT IF YOU join the MILITARY and serve your country you whiners" and it makes me so angry because. I seriously considered it. But I'm not fit for military service because I take antidepressants.

Point is, the military legitimately and sincerely serves as a vehicle for people to better their circumstances and improve themselves in many ways. If a hypothetical NSR could provide that vehicle to people who can't join the military, that's worth supporting. If it can get people to do the important, necessary work that gets left behind by capitalism, that would be a hell of a thing.

It might serve as a starting point to get "free college tuition for some people" through Congress.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 2:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Did attackers take down Newsweek because of an anti-Trump story?
Details about the volume of the attack or what made it sophisticated were not immediately available. On Friday, Eichenwald described it as “a major attack on Newsweek.” Later in the afternoon, Eichenwald tweeted, “Lots of IP addresses involved. Main ones from Russia.”

In an e-mail to Ars, Impoco reiterated that the publication is "still investigating” and that investigators have “nothing definitive. As with any DDoS attack, there are a lot of IP addresses, but the main ones are Russian.” He said it remains too early to say what significance, if any, comes from the large number of Russian IPs.
posted by zachlipton at 2:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


There's a good reason that perception was lost during the Vietnam War. It's hard to perceive murdering and torturing innocent men, women, and children as "an honor."

Iraq and Afghanistan have done nothing but worsen this perception of the military.
posted by stolyarova at 2:24 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I get where you're going with this but historically the children of the rich either get exempted or they go into, for example, the Texas Air National Guard.

If we're bringing back imaginary conscription, it will be the kind with no exemptions other than severe physical or mental disability. Then the rich and powerful will have no option but leaving.

And that is how you bring about the proletariat revolution.
posted by asteria at 2:24 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think the primary threat to Clinton's chances now are not Trump but a Russian-hacker backed October Surprise.
posted by Justinian at 2:25 PM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


And that is how you bring about the proletariat revolution.

Is this a sincere defense of conscription from a left-accelerationist perspective?

Are you the shadow I'm looking for?
posted by stolyarova at 2:26 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


If we're bringing back imaginary conscription, it will be the kind with no exemptions other than severe physical or mental disability. Then the rich and powerful will have no option but leaving.

Yeah, no. The rich and powerful will never allow that to happen.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:27 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Bill's infedility and then a sex tape.

And Hilary's playing him and the media right now as he just perfectly aligns himself with this scandalous tabloid crap and she was holding back in the debate.

There's a real chance the dude just fucking loses it in the next one.
posted by angrybear at 2:28 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Bill Weld (L) on MSNBC at the moment calling Gary Johnson's "Aleppo moment" a "pop quiz", and saying how gosh darned disappointed Johnson is with himself because he was totally into warning about Syria before it was a thing... except it wasn't a quiz, he was given the answer and then couldn't even recognize that it had anything to do with Syria.
posted by XMLicious at 2:28 PM on September 30, 2016


Hey gang, hold up a moment. Are we sure that Trump doesn't think he's running for Grand Nagus?

Do they elect Grand Nagus? I always thought that was handled through a hostile buyout or something.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:29 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


From the deposition:
I'm running for office. I obviously have credibility because I now, as it turns out, became the Republican nominee running against, we have a total of 17 people that were mostly senators and governors, highly respected people. So it's not like, you know, like I've said anything that could be so bad. Because if I said something that was so bad, they wouldn't have had me go through all of these people and win all of these primary races ... So I was very surprised that he wanted to get out of the lease.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:30 PM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]




This seems odd...ly honest

@jeffjarvis: "I'm not sure anyone's more qualified than @HillaryClinton to be President of the United States," @GovBillWeld tells @chucktodd.
posted by chris24 at 2:31 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that Bill Weld is voting for Clinton/Kaine and not his own ticket.
posted by Justinian at 2:31 PM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


If we're bringing back imaginary conscription, it will be the kind with no exemptions other than severe physical or mental disability. Then the rich and powerful will have no option but leaving.

Counterpoint: in Israel there is active competition to get into combat units because active duty in these units is considered an advantage later in life, sort of how attending an Ivy league school is more prestigious despite the coursework being similar to a college of "lesser" pedigree.
posted by PenDevil at 2:33 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I feel bad for angrycat's shrink, who, as a person with a graduate degree, is probably also afraid of Trump and is losing the ability to be reassuring all day - but no, they're not supposed to engage with anxiety that way.

So my husband's psychiatrist, back during the primaries, TOTALLY APROPOS OF NOTHING, starting going off about the election. Like, it wasn't even a topic my husband brought up. So when my husband said he was voting for Bernie, she said, "Well then you're an idiot."

So YEAH. He hasn't been back since and I think got his PCP to prescribe his psych meds. The problem is that there aren't many actual psychiatrists in this town and having worked in the field I know all their reputations and this was "the good one."
posted by threeturtles at 2:33 PM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


If we're bringing back imaginary conscription, it will be the kind with no exemptions other than severe physical or mental disability.

The last time we had a draft, neither wheat nor peanuts were common, life-threatening allergies. Nor was vegetarianism a widespread diet - and throwing vegetarians onto a meat-based diet, regardless of potential religious violations, can make them horribly sick.

I would expect charts of "you must be this overweight to be exempt from military service" to hit tumblr about 3 hours after any kind of draft resolution got past the initial stages. And for LSD use to skyrocket.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:34 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Omg, you nerds, no one is bring back conscription.
posted by asteria at 2:36 PM on September 30, 2016 [69 favorites]


"There aren't that many great restaurants in DC," says a man that loves fast food and steaks burnt to a crisp.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:36 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Sounds like his inner circle don't know what to do with him.

I expect they don't. When does a YUGE man-baby tweet? Whenever he wants to.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:37 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


So, the Clinton's and Obama went to a funeral today for a great man. Trump stayed up late and told his twitter friends to watch porn.
posted by valkane at 2:37 PM on September 30, 2016 [36 favorites]


Even at the height of the Cold War, I don't think there was any kind of program where every able-bodied male citizen would have to spend a year in the military or national guard or whatever.

But Elvis was drafted, no?
posted by TWinbrook8 at 2:38 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Bill Clinton nominated Bill Weld to be ambassador to Mexico and Republican Jessie Helms blocked his nomination because Helms was an asshole.
posted by humanfont at 2:38 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm just trying to keep perspective.
posted by valkane at 2:38 PM on September 30, 2016


I feel like a psychologist who brings up the election with his/her patients is not going to have a lot of people recover and stop needing therapy.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:38 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's not a surprise once you learn that Bill Weld met and worked with Hillary Clinton "...on the House impeachment committee in 1974 where they were young staffers. The Clintons and Welds have been friends ever since. Weld resigned his governorship in 1997 to become President Bill Clinton’s ambassador to Mexico, although his bid never made it out of committee because Senator Jesse Helms blocked it." Newsweek, 6/16.

Like most people who have worked with HRC, he likes and respects her very much.
posted by stolyarova at 2:39 PM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


Just bought the "Women's rights are human rights" T-shirt. It takes a lot of doing to get my cheapskate self to buy something, but what finally convinced me was that it's a good-looking shirt and the message will stay relevant for a long time after the election. (I fear, after the example of Obama's presidency, especially after the election.)
posted by J.K. Seazer at 2:41 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Oh, Trump's hypocrisy just got ten times funnier:

Donald Trump Appeared In A 2000 Playboy Softcore Porn

Donald Trump made an appearance in an explicit 2000 Playboy video.

Trump’s role in the porn is relatively benign and centers around breaking a bottle of champagne on a Playboy-branded limo while several of the playmates are visiting New York City. BuzzFeed News obtained the footage from the online-only Buffalo, New York-based adult video store, Cinema Cornucopia.

posted by stolyarova at 2:42 PM on September 30, 2016 [27 favorites]


I have to say, this is one of the few elections I can remember where the vice-presidential candidate's name rarely makes it into the advertising, yard signs, etc. It's really a stark illustration of what this thing is all about.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:42 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's hard to perceive murdering and torturing innocent men, women, and children as "an honor."

Are you someone who has shown up here accidentally from a bizarre alternate history parallel Earth, because we've got some kind of quantum cusp or something going on in this timeline?

I don't know about an imaginary draft, but the aristocrats of our imaginary 21st-century Trump-lead New Gilded Age would have no trouble whatsoever establishing a warrior caste beneath them who considered this the highest honor.
posted by XMLicious at 2:44 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


A candidate is literally talking about rounding up undesirables and making cavalier comments about bombing other countries, but yeah, let's focus on the slippery slope that starts with a voluntary civil service program and ends with Clintonjugend.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:51 PM on September 30, 2016 [57 favorites]


Ooh let's talk about the veep:

Hillary Clinton’s running mate Virginia Sen. Tim Kaine believes the Catholic Church will one day accept same sex marriage and women should have unlimited access to abortion, but some Catholic leaders are telling him his views have no place in the church.


I'll bet they are!
posted by emjaybee at 2:57 PM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


There's no way the Roman Catholic Church accepts those positions unless by "one day" you mean "far enough into the future as to be meaningless". A schismatic American Catholic Church (which I've long felt is a good idea) which accepts ordination of women and such would be a different matter.
posted by Justinian at 2:59 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


NEW TRUMP YARD SIGNS AVAILABLE
posted by Lexica at 3:01 PM on September 30, 2016 [22 favorites]


CHECK OUT SEX TAPE

I tried, but my library pretended like they never even had a copy. Obvious Hillary shills.
posted by msalt at 3:05 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


NEW TRUMP YARD SIGNS AVAILABLE

Oh my god. If I could get one of those and put it on my Trump neighbor's lawn, I'd do it!
posted by Sophie1 at 3:05 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Well things will undoubtedly become somewhat fractured after the flame deluge, but with the the blessing of Saint Leibowitz they will be able to smooth things out.
posted by ckape at 3:06 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump welcomes the Playmates in New York and pops a bottle of champagne to kick off the New York stop. Trump then pours it over the Playboy bunny logo.
Take it away! Take it away! "Donald Trump's pop shot" is not a phrase I want in my head.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:07 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Donald Trump Appeared In A 2000 Playboy Softcore Porn

The Porn Star Candidate.
posted by zarq at 3:08 PM on September 30, 2016


Donald Trump Appeared In A 2000 Playboy Softcore Porn

I know Trump's Mirror and all, but I truly was not prepared for it to apply to "check out sex tape" too.
posted by zachlipton at 3:09 PM on September 30, 2016 [45 favorites]


> "this comment just made somebody else (me) donate again, too"

Me as well.
posted by kyrademon at 3:09 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


inching away from her all-out effort to lure disaffected Republicans in favor of a traditional get-Democrats-to-the-polls effort

That's very Bullshitico, implying a change in strategy when it's about acknowledging the calendar. September is for conversions; October is for locking in the base and GOTV, especially with early voting under way in many states.

On the volunteer stuff: there's value in getting young people in unfamiliar environments: a little bit of travel, a little bit of working alongside people they wouldn't normally encounter. Again, that sets up tension between the desire in certain places to stay the same forever and the mobility that accompanies opportunity, but that's never going to be resolved.
posted by holgate at 3:11 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Doing the math: the man was 54 when that Playboy flick was made.

So classy to live your midlife crisis on film!
posted by Sublimity at 3:11 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I also posted to my Facebook with a "free drink for donation today plus Voted sticker selfie Nov 8" challenge for my entire network.

So yeah, props, Secret Life of Gravy.
posted by clever sheep at 3:12 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump's law: If Donald is admonishing someone for a given action, he has committed that action.
posted by cmfletcher at 3:12 PM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


There's a real chance the dude just fucking loses it in the next one.

*buys extra popcorn*
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:14 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Whoa, hold on - back to the Grand Nagus thing: check out the information on the Grand Nagus version of the White House, the Nagal Residence: "The Nagal Residence was the gigantic, lavishly-appointed home of the Ferengi Grand Nagus. It was located in the capital city of Ferenginar, with a view of the Tower of Commerce. It was said that even the waste extraction fixtures were plated with latinum. Quark planned to replace them with solid latinum fixtures when he thought he was going to become the next Nagus in 2375."

Yup, Trump is running for Grand Nagus. I'm sure of it now.
posted by Servo5678 at 3:15 PM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm betting USA Today just lost at least these subscribers:
Representatives for four Trump-branded hotels — Trump International Hotel & Tower in New York, Trump International Hotel & Tower Chicago, Trump International Hotel in Washington, DC, and Trump Doral in Miami — told BuzzFeed News that guests are provided a complimentary copy of the paper. The front page of Friday’s edition featured a tease of the editorial, with the headline “TRUMP UNFIT FOR THE PRESIDENCY.”
posted by zachlipton at 3:18 PM on September 30, 2016 [24 favorites]


Shamelessly stolen for Facebook, cmfletcher.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 3:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


How is USA Today a going concern, still
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 3:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's basically McNewspaper.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:24 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Secret Life of Gravy, all I could think of when you posted that Trump's campaign is considering Chris Christie to manage Trump's debate prep is Owen Ellickson and his Christie portayal. I can only hope this is true, because I think Mr. Ellickson has hit the nail on the head with his characterization. Christie could no more manage Trump than fly, and last time I looked, he had no wings. It may have been unintentional, but thanks for the laugh!
posted by Silverstone at 3:27 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Damn it!

I don't even Facebook. My dog, she's 3, Facebooks and she's amazing. All the best people poke her. We're not making the fresh Trump jokes we should be making, believe me.
posted by cmfletcher at 3:28 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Half of USA Today's circulation is in hotels. It's designed specifically for that market, basically.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:29 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


USA Today is also a de facto syndication service for all the Gannett papers: if you're in a Gannett market, you get USA Today sections bundled with the local paper.
posted by holgate at 3:29 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Porn Star Candidate.

The Pornchurian Candidate
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:32 PM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


Back in 2010, USA Today lost a majority of their Marriott chain business, which diminished their circulation figures by about 50,000. (Out of about 1.8 million.) Hotels buy the papers in bulk through special arrangement (usually priced at around 0.75¢ -- the cost of the paper on a newsstand is $2.00.) Marriott stopped buying the papers in such large numbers because people weren't reading them. So now, customers can request a copy from the front desk, but they don't buy enough for every room.

Most hotels invisibly factor the cost of free newspapers into the bill while some luxury hotels print a newspaper charge right on the bill. When they do, it's usually the newsstand cost of the paper, plus a few cents extra for free delivery. So they make money on the deal.

There are 7 Trump Hotels in the United States, and one estate at the Trump Winery in Virginia. The loss of business probably wouldn't affect USA Today's circulation figures all that much. At 2.3 million (currently) they're the top newspaper by circulation in the country.
posted by zarq at 3:34 PM on September 30, 2016 [33 favorites]


Trust a publicist to know circulation figures.
posted by zarq at 3:37 PM on September 30, 2016 [23 favorites]


Clinton Burns Trump: Easier for Him to Insult Women Than Make Mexico Pay Up:
Speaking to a crowd in Coral Springs, Florida, Clinton said Trump “finds it a lot easier to insult women than to talk to the president of Mexico about building a wall. I mean, really? Who gets up at 3:00 in the morning to engage in a Twitter attack against a former Miss Universe?”
...
“My opponent's only infrastructure plan is to build a wall! I loved that he went down to Mexico and he choked,” Clinton said. “He didn't even raise it. He's been going around telling people for months we're going to build a wall, make Mexico pay for it, so he's sitting with the president of Mexico and he doesn't even bring it up.”
posted by kirkaracha at 3:38 PM on September 30, 2016 [34 favorites]


Hammond's Trump is too goofy uncle. Making the link between Trump and Jack Donaghy explicit is a perfect way to deflate him. I wouldn't be surprised if it were Tina Fey's idea. I almost wish they'd gotten Amy Poehler for Clinton.
posted by EarBucket at 3:40 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


I don't even Facebook

/me searches for more of cmfletcher's bon mots because I can totally get away with it now
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 3:41 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


There's a followup article to the "Prince Georging, Meflection, and Gobbing: A brief guide to Trump's rhetorical tricks" article I linked in the previous thread: The Trump Glossary.

From the earlier article:
This is key: You have to slow down and name what Trump is doing instead of reacting to it. Otherwise it might work on you.

Consider terms like "gaslighting," "mansplaining," and "negging." These are words that anatomized and labeled dumb dominance behaviors whose social effects aren't dumb — they're real. Naming this sort of thing teaches others (especially those not subject to the behaviors in question) to think twice about how our perceptions are tweaked by social cues and how animalistically we're programmed. If someone calls someone else weak and they don't challenge it, the lizard brain's first impulse is not to say, "Well, of course, it's unreasonable to expect someone to respond to such an uncivil charge." It is to say, "HUH! GUESS HE IS WEAK." If a man talks over someone else for long enough and the other party doesn't manage to stop it, this person must not be worth listening to. This is what happened to Jeb Bush. We only barely get control over these impulses by making our psychological vulnerabilities visible; that is, by naming them.
New terms this time include Midasing, Cookie-Grubbing, Meefing, Merkining, Gish Galloping, and Shkreling.
posted by Lexica at 3:41 PM on September 30, 2016 [23 favorites]


I had “take a shot every time Trump sniffles” during the debate and I’m still hung over.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:46 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


This comic is so perfect and I can't stop snerking at it. Recommended for cat-lovers.
posted by stolyarova at 3:48 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


the next installment covers High Jordachery, Waffle-Ironing, Meeseeking, Melf's Acid Arrowing, Ganking, Ofermode, and Skraelinging.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:48 PM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


Also, re: USA Today, in case anyone is curious.... (I promise I'll shut up about the paper after this comment.)

Cision lists the following information for the paper:

Audience and Readership:
Gender: Male Index 136
Age: 45-49 Index 109
Race: African American Index 151
Education: College BA/Post Grad Degree Index 150
HHI $250k+ Index 261
HHI $150k+ Index 197
Region: Midwest Index 125

To read this... the Print Measurement Bureau (PMB) index numbers are listed next to each item. The PMB Index is a percentage, with 100 reflecting the average. Scores above 100 represent intersections that are more likely to occur, while scores lower than 100 are more unlikely.

Cision lists the current estimated circulation/audience of USA Today as: 2,203,610. Slightly lower than what was reported in May of this year.
posted by zarq at 3:51 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Novi, MI was trending on twitter awhile ago, so I checked if something terrible had happened, and yup, it had, His Orangeness was holding an event there. Bunch of Trumpies (or Russian bots) gloating at the "massive" turnout, estimating a crowd of 25,000, Uh, the venue (The Suburban Collection Showplace) has a capacity of a couple thousand I think.

Then one journalist quoted Donald's speech, to the effect how great it'd be if we were "one people praying to one God under one flag."

All those white people with their proud little homemade "Deplorable" gear-ugh, I'm so mortified that I even look like them, that I'm a WASP from reddish-purpley places.
posted by NorthernLite at 3:53 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I had “take a shot every time Trump sniffles” during the debate and I’m still hung over.

How is the after life?
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:54 PM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


New Florida Poll out today from Mason Dixon
Following the first debate of the presidential general election campaign, Democrat Hillary Clinton has a 46%-42% lead over Donald Trump in Florida. Libertarian Gary
Johnson is supported by7%, Green Party candidate Jill Stein is backed by only1% and 4% remain undecided.

The race in Florida continues to predictably split among the various demographic sub-groups. Clinton leads among Democrats (83%-10%), women (54%-36%), blacks (92%-1%), Hispanics (64%-29%) and in Southeast Florida (58%-29%).
[my bold]

I know the theory is that Trump was never making a serious play for the Black vote, but I get a kick out of the idea that he went to all those Black churches for nothing.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:55 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


I submitted a debate question:

Both of you are professing Christians. Which commandment of Jesus' is most important to you: that we love our enemies and do good to them, or that we share our wealth with the poor and needy?
posted by EarBucket at 3:57 PM on September 30, 2016 [60 favorites]


Which commandment of Jesus' is most important to you: that we love our enemies and do good to them, or that we share our wealth with the poor and needy?

HRC: Both

DJT: Neither
posted by stolyarova at 3:58 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


gloating at the "massive" turnout, estimating a crowd of 25,000, Uh, the venue (The Suburban Collection Showplace) has a capacity of a couple thousand I think

Maybe if they put a few rooms together. It's definitely under 3K unless they want to get Fire Marshalls on to them again.
posted by readery at 3:59 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I get a kick out of the idea that he went to all those Black churches for nothing.

He didn't go to black churches to get black votes. He went so white people could believe he's not a racist.
posted by argybarg at 4:00 PM on September 30, 2016 [61 favorites]


The race in Florida continues to predictably split among the various demographic sub-groups. Clinton leads among Democrats (83%-10%), women (54%-36%), blacks (92%-1%), Hispanics (64%-29%) and in Southeast Florida (58%-29%).

Why is Southeast Florida so different?
posted by Azara at 4:06 PM on September 30, 2016


He went to black churches so white racists could say "see, he tried, he told them they had nothing to lose" and go about their racist ways feeling good. Plausible deniability seems to be the way Trump lives his life; say some stuff, pretend to do some stuff, say your lawyers or accountants told you to do some stuff. He's known to never use email as he thinks that would nail him, so he keeps everything just a bit provisional so he can get out of it.

And boy howdy asswipes like this getting comeuppance is all the more glorious.
posted by readery at 4:07 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


@ddale8:
There's almost no subtlety here. Trump is calling on supporters to stand at polling stations in black areas and look suspiciously at people.

His advice makes zero sense as a solution to voter fraud (which is very rare). It only works as intimidation and delegitimization.

Trump has now warned about voter fraud while near Detroit and while referring to Philadelphia. What, let us think, do they have in common?
This is very dangerous territory. He's asking for voter intimidation and suppression of certain people from his supporters, whom he has encouraged to commit violence. It's also illegal, because the GOP have done it before and got caught. In the last thread, I talked about how one of the issues where even NeverTrumpers agreed with Trump is the overblown threat of voter fraud and the celebration of Shelby v Holder, which encouraged voter suppression laws not seen since Jim Crow. This right here? This is one of the times where I hold them just as responsible as Trump. They enabled, no, encouraged this, and if Trump wins, this will be a large reason why.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:13 PM on September 30, 2016 [44 favorites]


The RNC, staying relevant: RNC Goes After Bill Clinton's Half-Brother in New Memo.
posted by waitingtoderail at 4:14 PM on September 30, 2016


Ivanka Trump stars in new campaign ad to help her father appeal to women
The carefully produced ad melds pictures of Ivanka with her children and rolling out blueprints at a construction site with video footage of Donald Trump embracing women and listening to them and playing with his grandchildren. It also shows video of several ordinary families of diverse backgrounds. The ad touts Trump's affordable child-care policy that he rolled out with Ivanka in September in Pennsylvania and is part of the campaign's aggressive effort to increase Trump's standing with female voters.

The ad is part of the campaign's $7.5 million buy for next week and is slated to run nationally and in battleground states on cable networks with large female audiences, such as Lifetime, Bravo, TLC and OWN (the Oprah Winfrey Network), as well as on network prime-time shows including "Dancing With the Stars," "Grey's Anatomy," "How to Get Away With Murder," "Madam Secretary" and "The Voice," according to a senior campaign official.
Embracing women and playing with his grandchildren. Not the Trump you usually see.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:18 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


CHECK OUT SEX TAPE is the name of my new vaporwave ECM project.
posted by PROD_TPSL at 4:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


Can't wait for the RNC to dig up the dirt on Socks the cat.
posted by PenDevil at 4:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [24 favorites]


> the original completion date of the DC hotel, according to the press release sent out when it was announced, was late 2015

Trump in the debate:
But we're opening the Old Post Office. Under budget, ahead of schedule, saved tremendous money. I'm a year ahead of schedule. And that's what this country should be doing.

It's just too easy, from March 21, 2016:
“We’re two years ahead of schedule. We’re going to be opening in September,” Trump said at a news conference held inside what will be the hotel’s lobby.
So, Trump International Hotel, opening in 2015, 2016, 2017, or 2018! What a businessman!
posted by peeedro at 4:20 PM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


RNC Goes After Bill Clinton's Half-Brother in New Memo.

As far as I can figure out, the story there is, "Clinton's brother hit hard times, so Clinton, via some proxy/ies, paid for his house."
...questions the RNC raises about the propriety of longtime Clinton aide Justin Cooper being involved in purchasing Roger Clinton's home in California through a limited liability corporation at a time the former president's half-brother was struggling with back taxes. No wrongdoing is alleged.
This is supposed to be evidence of sleaze and graft?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:20 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Why is Southeast Florida so different?

From looking at a map it's basically Miami/Fort Lauderdale/Palm Beach and the Everglades. In other words almost everyone lives in a city.
posted by Francis at 4:20 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I cannot for the life of me figure out what kind of dirt on a candidate's brother-in-law could cause the candidate serious damage. And helping out a sibling who had fallen on hard times would be considered admirable behavior in many families.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:21 PM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


oh please, please try to make a 'scandal' out of the Clintons helping Roger out, it'll contrast so nicely with the story about that time Trump stopped paying for his grandnephew's medical expenses
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [57 favorites]


Baldwin has a mean side that I am hoping to see deployed in the service of good tomorrow night.

If there is a god above, Baldwin will do a version of his monologue from Glengarry Glen Ross as Trump. Maybe with the Ed Harris role going to Reince Priebus.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 4:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


FWIW: I'm sure Alicia Machado is dealing with some ugly downsides to this and some of it may be downright shitty, but overall? God damn is this a glorious revenge.

I really want everything to be awesome for her from now on.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:26 PM on September 30, 2016 [23 favorites]


@SopanDeb: Trump tees off on debate mic in MI: "...and you think you have 100 million people watching, what do you do, stop the show? Please fix it?"

"It was bad. I wonder why it was bad. Think of that. I wonder why it was bad. It was so bad."(real)
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:28 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


You know, in driving I was taught to steer into the skid in order to regain control faster. The lesson I am taking from this is that the same advice does not apply to politics.

This is like the worst derail ever but, hey, road safety matters so:

This was always terrible terrible advice because either direction you could turn the steering wheel is plausibly "into" the skid. If you're in a skid and trying to regain control, the AFAIK real rule is simpler: Turn the steering wheel in the direction you want the front of the car to go.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:29 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Roger Clinton!!?

For the kids in the audience: He was a Clinton Scandal sideshow in the 90s, too.

In a way the Clinton Scandals are kinda like the Beatles. Every crop of 19 year olds gets to discover them fresh.
posted by notyou at 4:31 PM on September 30, 2016 [32 favorites]


Please bring back haircutgate. Pretty please? And can we have another inquiry into the Clintons' Christmas Cards?
posted by Francis at 4:33 PM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


Why is Southeast Florida so different?

Southeast FL is, yeah, Miami and Lauderdale and the other maybe actually liberal places.

The cities in the rest of south/central FL up through around I-4 (Tampa to Daytona) are kinda like Orange County CA but not as much, or maybe Phoenix.

North of I-4, Florida is just an extension of Georgia, or Alabama in west FL.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:34 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Referenced in an earlier post about a news article, but not actually linked: Episode 5 of Hillary's podcast: “Presidents are people, too” "President Bill Clinton sits down with Max after the first presidential debate to talk about why Hillary is running for president, her love of HGTV, and the power of moon rocks."
posted by cashman at 4:35 PM on September 30, 2016


(Orlando doesn't fit neatly into any of those because Orlando is just a whirling vortex of weaponized stupid)
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:35 PM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]




Can't wait for the RNC to dig up the dirt on Socks the cat.
Check out the Socks tape!
posted by bibliowench at 4:39 PM on September 30, 2016 [79 favorites]


He's asking for voter intimidation and suppression of certain people from his supporters, whom he has encouraged to commit violence.

The bits of election law relating to challenges and intimidation in many states work only because nobody tries to DDOS them. All bets are off this time.

Remember also that PA doesn't have early voting, and that the GOP will know the demographics and voting history of every precinct from its gerrymandering maps. (Though so too will Team HRC.)

This is another reason why the Clinton campaign wants to bank early votes, because if the Deplorables try anything during early voting, it'll be easier to report, identify and put relevant county boards and law enforcement on notice. Though again, the FOP endorsement and the way that Trump has appealed to cops makes me queasy. Only takes a few bad apples.
posted by holgate at 4:40 PM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


That NYT article said Ohio wasn't a bellweather anymore, and there does seem to be less focus on it, but Hillary is going to Ohio on Monday (October 3rd). Her events page doesn't say which city yet, just 'Ohio'. I'm going to guess it's Columbus, for no particular reason.
posted by cashman at 4:41 PM on September 30, 2016


Check out the Socks tape!

FTFY
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:41 PM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


Check out the Socks tape!

ಠ_ಠ
posted by Cookiebastard at 4:43 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


I see absolutely nothing wrong with paying off your sibling's mortgage, if they are in need and you have the means. Is there more to this "scandal" or is that really it?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:45 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


This was always terrible terrible advice because either direction you could turn the steering wheel is plausibly "into" the skid. If you're in a skid and trying to regain control, the AFAIK real rule is simpler: Turn the steering wheel in the direction you want the front of the car to go

With older cars, you would turn (briefly!) in the direction the car was skidding so the wheels could regain traction. Newer cars have ABS, which allows you to turn away. In either case (but especially the former) you're still dependant on how much room you have to play with.

/derail
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:45 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


USA Today was arguably visionary and way ahead of the curve, at least for its dying industry. They emphasized colorful web graphics in print, before there even was a web. Their sports coverage is intense; I believe they have 2 or even 3 full time reporters just for the team I cover, the San Francisco 49ers; next most is the San Jose Mercury News with 2.

Basically, newspapers have consolidated into three actually printed versions that matter"
1) the New York Times (which is really becoming more of a wire service), leaning left
2) the Wall Street Journal, now owned by Murdoch, leaning right; and
3) USA Today, unaffiliated, owning the sports beat, more fun and colorful than the first two.
posted by msalt at 4:49 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Is there more to this "scandal" or is that really it?
I think it may be a way to get the media to focus on Roger Clinton, who has a somewhat checkered past. I think he spent some time in prison for a drug conviction, and he had a child out of wedlock. It was a sort of big deal in the '90s, and I think played into a narrative about Bill Clinton being low-class. I can't imagine anyone is going to care now, and honestly it might make the Clintons seem more relatable. Raise your hand if there's no one in your family who has had a child without being married to the other parent or who has a drug conviction. Anyone?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:50 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Social norms are changing fast, and so many of the attacks which worked in the 90s would come off as just plain baffling now. A prime example of this is the weed thing- "I didn't inhale" vs "of course I inhaled, that's the whole point!"
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:53 PM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]



Yay made it to the end.

I attended a lunchtime talk about pitching to Angel Investors. During part of the talk about preparation and the importance of practicing your pitch the presenter made an aside, "Yes you don't want to be Trumpian".
Whole room burst out in laughter.

On the way home the second story on CBC hourly news was about the Machado tweets. In the first one the reporter pretty much read out the tweets with the intro that this started at 3 am. Then she said the sex tape part wasn't true. Then she went on to read several Hillary's responses which included the one saying he was unhinged and 'what kind of man'.
It sounded so bad read out loud like that and the contrast with Hillary's tweet were stark. Before that I've only read them. They sound even more awful when read out loud.
posted by Jalliah at 4:55 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump's law: If Donald is admonishing someone for a given action, he has committed that action.

Menstruating?

2016 is weird.
posted by phearlez at 5:00 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Basically, newspapers have consolidated into three actually printed versions that matter"

Do you mean "matter" as in "have national /local influence"? Because I'd argue that a number of local papers across the country are still quite relevant and are capable of effecting change in their own communities through print. St. Pete's Times/Tampa Bay Times in Northern Florida, for one. The Washington Post. The Boston Globe. And others.
posted by zarq at 5:02 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Newsweek follow-up article

Donald Trump Still Won't Tell the Truth About Cuba
Newsweek’s requests for comments, documents and even an interview with Trump were ignored, which was unusual. Traditionally, when campaigns, companies and other professional groups are told that a piece about them is in the works, they will contact a reporter to find out the scope of the story, even if there is no plan to give a comment. That way, they can have a planned response ready when the story breaks.[...]

Trump’s staff had searched through the files of the wrong company. Because they had refused to speak with Newsweek, they had mistakenly concluded the story involved a trip sponsored by the Trump Organization, a private company. In fact, testing out business opportunities in Cuba had been a project of Trump Hotels & Casino Resorts, a public company in which Trump was a controlling shareholder and chairman through 2009.

The next morning, Newsweek.com posted the article, which cited internal company documents, court filings and interviews with former Trump executives. By then, the Trump campaign had prepared talking points for its staff and surrogates that did not address the facts in the article and misrepresented them.
A campaign run by a basket of deplorables amateurs.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:02 PM on September 30, 2016 [35 favorites]


Ooh. Hillary's shop has Never Trump buttons now.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:04 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Long drive by myself today give me too much time to think. I was pondering Trump's meltdown and what would happen if it continued at this level. Would he make it to the next debate? Or will he get himself so worked up and paranoid that he would pull out and thought nah that would be stupid even for him.

Then I thought oh no, what if he pulled out and told everyone that he was going to have his own planned townhall, one that wasn't rigged? Would he do that? Could he do that? But yeah that is totally something he's unhinged enough to try. I scared myself.

Yes I know I'm totally out in paranoid land but what in the hell would happen if he tried something like that? What would the media do? It would be nutz.
posted by Jalliah at 5:11 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I've been meaning to say this about the purported Assange October surprise.

First, the guy is an asshole. But that's not pertinent to the second thing.

Second, if the information they have is information that they've taken off the DNC server or Clinton's personal server, I assume that Clinton's team is aware that it might become public knowledge and already has a game plan in place to address it. I'm not saying that a release of some new shocking information couldn't potentially have an impact, but her campaign has been pretty consistently disciplined in its approach to everything. I believe in my heart that they're fully prepared for virtually any e-mail related eventuality.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:12 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


alrighalrightfine

donated again. last time I got rejected due to having donated from outside the US, but I didn't click the "american abroad" thingy. (Well, the donation went through, and then got returned later). So this time hopefully it went through correctly.

Oh and also I dragged a couple of colleagues to register today (deadlines for that are coming up!)..
posted by nat at 5:15 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


This week Clinton's widened her leads in Florida and Nevada, and substantially narrowed Trump's lead in Ohio (Trump 51%, Clinton 49%).
posted by kirkaracha at 5:15 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


A campaign run by a basket of deplorables amateurs.

The worst thing is the talking points basically amounted to "Kurt Eichenwald is a loser obsessed with Trump" and "it was only light treason what's the big deal?"
posted by Talez at 5:15 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Maybe tomorrow if y'all can help me get over the phone fear I'll make some calls.. (I hate the phone with an ungodly passion)...
posted by nat at 5:16 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Bill's going to be in Ohio next week, Biden's in Florida, FLOTUS in NC. Nothing in PA or VA right now.

Trump's got events in CO and AZ -- a west coast overnighter! -- and is fundraising in NJ over the weekend. Pence is doing rallies VA on Monday and Wednesday, either side of the Veep debate. Kaine's probably doing harmonica practice prep.

Both candidates are booked in for the Al Smith Dinner in NYC on October 20th, the night after the third debate, where tradition demands gentle ribbing and self-deprecation. Hoo boy.
posted by holgate at 5:16 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Jalliah, I too have been scanning the headlines and thinking similar thoughts. What if this just keeps snowballing? What if the press has turned onTrump once and for all, and we are looking at a historic collapse to cap off this unprecedentedly bizarre campaign cycle? What if Trump ends up holed up in a hotel room somewhere for the last two weeks, communicating with the world only through increasingly hostile and paranoid tweets? It feels very possible, at this moment.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:17 PM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


I think the reason Trump is running is that his tax problems are bad enough that he's facing jail time, and he figured the IRS wouldn't throw a sitting president in prison.

I think his current drug binge is an extended going-away party.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 5:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


This may be old news, but the head of Massachusetts's congressional delegation is convinced that the Brexit Effect is a thing, looking at The Donald's polling vs. results in the primaries. Has anyone corroborated this, or is he just being a fatalist?
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:20 PM on September 30, 2016


Corroborated it how? There is no evidence from a general election yet.
posted by Justinian at 5:21 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


The H4A site is selling all kinds of 'designer buttons,' and some of them are pretty great, and some are OK, and then there's one that is just fucking terrible
posted by theodolite at 5:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


That is, indeed, an awful button.
posted by Justinian at 5:23 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


The first debate was a defeat for Trump. Here’s why the second could be an outright massacre

That article is an excellent analysis of why the town hall format will be a challenge for Trump. He doesn't really interact with the "little people."
Clinton does many campaign events in small groups, where she’ll meet with students or immigrants or business owners and have long conversations about what matters to them. Trump, on the other hand, seldom gets closer to voters than the distance between the first row and the podium at his rallies. But it’s more than lack of practice — it’s just not who he is. Whatever Trump’s talents, he’s not a people person. You don’t watch him talking to an ordinary Joe and say, “That guy really cares.”
He's also going to come in angry and still wanting the first debate with his "tough" attacks, which won't work in this format.

Imagine if a woman asks him about his beauty queen comments, or any of his comments about women. Imagine the reactions of women in the audience.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:23 PM on September 30, 2016 [23 favorites]


Maybe tomorrow if y'all can help me get over the phone fear I'll make some calls..

Do it. You're calling like minded people, mostly.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:25 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]




The LA Times USC Tracking Poll is taunting me with its idiocy again. It has been moving towards Trump since the debate. Every other poll in the entire universe has shown a shift towards Clinton of a few points. But this piece of crap is still moving towards Trump.

I hope they take a long hard ponder about their methodology after this.
posted by Justinian at 5:27 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


During that debate, blood was coming out of Trump's wherever. Obviously.

I'm just watching Samantha Bee from last night and she pointed out a brief post-debate Fox News clip when Trump is talking to Sean Hannity in the spin room and the voiceover is Megyn Kelly saying "I wonder if he's going to speak to any of the journalists in the room."
posted by XMLicious at 5:27 PM on September 30, 2016 [25 favorites]


Corroborated it how?

Wrong term. Verified is what I meant. Did Donnie Tee actually under-poll and over-deliver in the primaries, Brexit style? Google is failing me for once.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:28 PM on September 30, 2016


EarBucket FTW!
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:29 PM on September 30, 2016


This may be old news, but the head of Massachusetts's congressional delegation is convinced that the Brexit Effect is a thing, looking at The Donald's polling vs. results in the primaries. Has anyone corroborated this, or is he just being a fatalist?

My first though is that how could you compare the two because isn't primary polling only done on people voting in it? If so that's so then that would be suggesting that how Republican supporters vote and poll is how the whole country polls. That would just seem wrong because it's clear that their is quite a difference between the few and the whole.

Or maybe I'm just tired and don't understand what primary polling was about.
posted by Jalliah at 5:30 PM on September 30, 2016


Ooh. Hillary's shop has Never Trump buttons now.

They've had those for about 5 weeks.
posted by cashman at 5:30 PM on September 30, 2016


Thanks to those who mentioned donating - I joined you today in solidarity. (Plus, I can't resist the "donate $X and get this swag" thing. I also ordered a couple more things from the shop as well.

I'm embarrassed that I haven't yet done any actual volunteering, though, and I need to rectify that. I need a kick in the ass to get me going.
posted by Salieri at 5:32 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I don't recall if this got squashed in one of the earlier multi-thousand comment elections threads, so mods, delete if necessary.

On yard signs, bumper stickers, etc.:

I live in a red town in Texas, but work in one of the few blue towns in Texas. In each location, there is almost zero yard signs or bumper stickers for either candidate! This is especially interesting because I live two blocks away from a polling place in the red town and there are often signs for local races months ahead of time.

If I were to postulate, I would guess people are unhappy with both candidates or flat out scared to support HRC. I haven't publicly acknowledged that I am voting for her because my farther than left friend than me in this town is pushing hard for me to vote for Stein. I can't imagine what the "we vote Republican, then drink beer and watch football" would say if they knew I was voting for Hillary. (And, also, worst case: Trump wins and targets people that supported Hillary. It's an honest concern of mine.)

To be clear, I am not judging the the people in my city. I'm giving an accurate representation of how I see the vote going.

Anyway, today I saw the first two bumper stickers in town endorsing a candidate. On the way in to work, it was an I'm with her bumper sticker and I was surprised. On the way back from work to home, I saw a Trump sticker which I figured I would have seen at least 500 of by now.

So, I was surprised it took so long to see one. But my real surprise?

The person with the Trump MAGA bumper sticker put it right on their rear windshield in just the right place to obstruct view of their rear-view mirror.

I have had evens. I have kept my evens, because while I am concerned about this election, my daughter hugs me every night and my wife kisses me every night. My field of fucks is not yet barren. I can sow many more.

I'm not sure if that surreal experience of where the bumper sticker was placed pushed me beyond the "I can't even" and "No Fucks Left" or if it made me calmly satisfied that Hillary has this.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:34 PM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


They've had those for about 5 weeks.

Which is about how long it took my last order to arrive. :p

I'm embarrassed that I haven't yet done any actual volunteering, though, and I need to rectify that. I need a kick in the ass to get me going.

Download the app!! Search for Hillary 2016.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:36 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


That would just seem wrong because it's clear that their is quite a difference between the few and the whole.

I believe it was Sen. Ed Markey who believed that if the polls said Trump was down by one, he was actually ahead by two, and cited the Brexit polls as correlating with the GOP polls. Actual congress critters on our side of the aisle believe in the "secret Trump voter" thing.

Politico nicely debunks that, as per EarBucket's link.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:37 PM on September 30, 2016


Put the kids to bed and went back to my computer to order some swag before the deadline tonight. One Women's Rights are Human Rights shirt and one Women just want to have fun-damental rights tote for me, thanks.

Because fuck you, Donald.
posted by lydhre at 5:37 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Download the app!!

Does the app have tools to let you connect with the local campaign?
posted by cashman at 5:38 PM on September 30, 2016


First Hillary was given all the debate questions ahead of time. Then she was colluding with Lester Holt and giving him hand signals during the debate. Then Trump's microphone was sabotaged. But THAT'S not why Trump lost the debate, according to radio host / pundit / Patrick-Warburton-after-getting-hit-in-the-face-with-a-cast-iron-skillet lookalike Bill Mitchell!

It was because she had a secret teleprompter in her podium, which she got all of her facts and figures and talking points from, snuck in and out of it by a mysterious techie!

I'm feeling hungry. Anybody got a spare /hamburger
posted by delfin at 5:39 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Do you mean [print newspapers that] "matter" as in "have national /local influence"? Because I'd argue that a number of local papers across the country are still quite relevant and are capable of effecting change in their own communities through print. St. Pete's Times/Tampa Bay Times in Northern Florida, for one. The Washington Post. The Boston Globe. And others.

Good point. The Washington Post should have the fourth in my list of national print papers that matter, by which I mean both financially sustainable and national/regional influence.

St. Petes Times clearly breaks important stories, but are they sustainable? The Philadelphia Inquirer has lots of good journalism but their finances are in free fall and waves of layoffs follow each other. The Oregonian out here broke significant stories despite its right wing bias, until the day they gutted it to save money. Now it's not even a daily.
posted by msalt at 5:43 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


It was because she had a secret teleprompter in her podium, which she got all of her facts and figures and talking points from, snuck in and out of it by a mysterious techie!

I don't get how group of people that think that Hillary has gotten away with so much and is the mastermind behind so many cover-ups also think she can't remember facts and figures.

Hillary Clinton "Evil Dumb Genius"
posted by Jalliah at 5:47 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


cashman: Does the app have tools to let you connect with the local campaign?

Yes! It's great. You can see all the upcoming scheduled events in your area (within the next few days, anyway), and RSVP; you'll get a follow-up call from your local campaign office before the event.
Also you can pet Winnie the dog in your custom virtual office.
posted by Superplin at 5:47 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Does the app have tools to let you connect with the local campaign?

I think it's national, but there may be local input.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:49 PM on September 30, 2016


By the way, if you like the Drive-By Truckers, their new album, American Band, is a searing look at living the USA in 2016. Its very pertinent listening during this election season.

NPR First listen

pertinent Rolling Stone article.

Highly recommended if you like your southern rock complicated, politically charged, intelligent and angry. I've been listening to it all day and it makes me feel like there's some hope for us after all.

posted by Joey Michaels at 5:50 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


A chuckle in the New Yorker Cartoons department for STRANGER THINGS fans.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:52 PM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]



Trump’s bad week is a ‘nightmare’ for the GOP


Reflecting upon Trump’s actions, Matt Borges, the Republican Party chairman in battleground Ohio, said, “Can this thing just end — please?”

“My God,” he sighed, “what a nightmare.”

posted by Jalliah at 5:56 PM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


The Hillaryclinton.com site will connect you up with local organizers. I haven't tried the app.
posted by Sublimity at 5:57 PM on September 30, 2016


He's laying the groundwork...

@NickConfessare:
On phone, @patrickhealynyt asked Trump if he'd do 2nd debate, “I want to do the next debate, but everybody is talking about the mic.”

@JohnPodesta:
As I predicted after the first debate, looks like @realDonaldTrump is going to try and chicken out of the second and third debates.

I really did not think he would skip the debates because he would be forever labeled a loser with no way to change the outcome. However if his team is frightened that he might turn in an even worse performance then they might be telling him the whole thing is rigged against him and everyone would understand if he just backed away.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:58 PM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


I'm picturing the Super-Grisham from lady dynamite now, but with various versions of HRC.
posted by melissasaurus at 6:00 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


I gave as much as I could afford to HRC early in the campaign (and I do mean as much as I could afford). I have my Woman Card, my window sign, my button, and my hat. And I didn't dare watch the debate in case it all went bad, but I have been enjoying the aftermath thoroughly. I actually think the "Obama was born in the USA after all!" press conference was the turning point for the media, though - that's when they realized how thoroughly they had been owned.

I should add I voted for her against Obama, though I voted for him in the general election and have been very happy with him as President.
posted by Peach at 6:02 PM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


I really did not think he would skip the debates because he would be forever labeled a loser with no way to change the outcome. However if his team is frightened that he might turn in an even worse performance then they might be telling him the whole thing is rigged against him and everyone would understand if he just backed away.

Okay but what if they decide to do their own competing debate? Like a rigged one just for him?
posted by Jalliah at 6:04 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


"I really want to do this next debate. I'm prepped and everything, but these darn heel spurs are flaring up again. I'll have to consult with my doctor first."
posted by p3t3 at 6:06 PM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


Hillary should offer to trade mikes with him in person, leading to a ridiculous "iocane powder" sputtering session about how he could not possibly do that
posted by Countess Elena at 6:06 PM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


Maybe Trump is tweeting crazy shit to keep the media away from the news about his charity illegally soliciting donations and his light treason in Cuba.
posted by humanfont at 6:09 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


NYTimes Donald Trump Opens New Line of Attack on Hillary Clinton: Her Marriage
Mr. Trump, aiming to unnerve Mrs. Clinton, even indicated that he was rethinking his statement at their last debate that he would “absolutely” support her if she won in November, saying: “We’re going to have to see. We’re going to see what happens. We’re going to have to see.”

In an interview with The New York Times, he also contended that infidelity was “never a problem” during his three marriages, though his first ended in an ugly divorce after Mr. Trump began a relationship with the woman who became his second wife.
[...] he said that he was “absolutely disgusted” that Mrs. Clinton had allied herself politically with a Miss Universe winner, Alicia Machado, whom Mr. Trump had derided for gaining weight.[...]

Mr. Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, argued that Mrs. Clinton’s support for Ms. Machado was part of a pattern by the Democrat of treating women to suit her own political ends, and raised Mrs. Clinton’s criticism of women who had been involved with her husband, such as Monica Lewinsky and Gennifer Flowers.[...]“Hillary Clinton was married to the single greatest abuser of women in the history of politics,” he added about Mr. Clinton. “Hillary was an enabler, and she attacked the women who Bill Clinton mistreated afterward.
So there you have it-- that's how he is going to roll. He was completely faithful, Bill was the worst sexual abuser in the history of American politics, and Hillary was Bill's enabler. Oh and a nice little touch about he will not honor his agreement to support Hillary when she beats him in November.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:12 PM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


OMG you guys - Maybe she cloned herself and there's a room full of Clone Hillaries feeding debate answers to Alpha Hillary!!!!!

For anyone who missed it, from Trevor Noah and The Daily Show in July: Imagining President Trump's Cabinet (may be geo-locked, I was unfortunately unable to find in elsewhere.) There was actually enough footage of Trump taking the opposite side from himself on issues that they were able to do an entire board room full of Trumps arguing with and contradicting each other.
posted by XMLicious at 6:13 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Thank you Anderson. Before we start tonight, Donald, I want you to try both podiums out. Test out the microphones, use whichever one you prefer. I want you to be very happy. It's very important to me." [fake]
posted by zachlipton at 6:14 PM on September 30, 2016 [34 favorites]



How in the hell does he think he can get away with saying he was faithful?

Like dude wtf?
posted by Jalliah at 6:14 PM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


@HeerJeet: 3 AM call. GEN FLYNN: Sorry to wake you, Mr. President.A beauty queen is gaining weight. TRUMP: Let me start tweeting.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:15 PM on September 30, 2016 [31 favorites]


There's a dog? My app doesn't have a dog!
posted by chrchr at 6:17 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


How in the hell does he think he can get away with saying he was faithful?

You can't cheat on yourself, and in Trump's world, there is only Trump.
posted by dis_integration at 6:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Oh, wow, there was a scandal around Socks. It's like no Clinton is safe from the muckrakers.

(A very minor scandal; Rep Burton (R-IN) suggested it was improper to use White House personnel to answer letters addressed to the Clintons' kitty. This was greeted in all quarters with the contempt it deserved.)
posted by jackbishop at 6:20 PM on September 30, 2016 [28 favorites]


Something about this election keeps reminding me of this Uncle Bonsai classic (possibly NSFW - title of song is Penis Envy) that has the memorable closing lyric of:
If I had a penis I'd still be a girl,
But I'd make much more money and conquer the world.
posted by hilaryjade at 6:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


You can't cheat on yourself, and in Trump's world, there is only Trump.

"None of you are real. You're all figments of my imagination, and you've never been worse off. Only I can solve your problems because only I exist at all."
posted by tclark at 6:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


How in the hell does he think he can get away with saying he was faithful?

Like dude wtf?


But that has been his whole godforsaken campaign. He didn't start the birtherism movement, Hillary did and Donald just ended it by making Obama produce the long form birth certificate.

He is not the racist, Hillary is because she hasn't made America better for Black people during her 30 year reign as Captain America.

His charitable foundation is a godsend to the poor, Hillary's is a money-making scheme that has made her immensely wealthy and influential.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [18 favorites]


I emailed the White House back in the 90s when that was something you could do for the first time from the comfort of your Prodigy account. I was not aware that I had the opportunity to email Socks, and am very disappointed I never took them up on the offer to have government employees respond to an email from my kid self to a cat.
posted by zachlipton at 6:25 PM on September 30, 2016 [34 favorites]


I hope Hilary campaign hits him with a metaphorical MAC trunk. This guy HAS to go down. I was feeling alright and now I'm all stressed again that too many people are going to again buy his latest, 'Hillary is an enabler' shit and that makes me being a raging mysogynst asshole a better choice.

Like hearing him talk like he cares and is speaking up for women wronged is red rage inducing.
posted by Jalliah at 6:28 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I also donated to HRC today. My first time ever donating money to a political campaign. Thanks, MeFi.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 6:33 PM on September 30, 2016 [26 favorites]


chrchr: There's a dog? My app doesn't have a dog!

Have you updated it recently? The dog showed up... I want to say about a month ago-ish.
She's very friendly (and if you pet her you get another 50 points on the leaderboard /secret_tip).
posted by Superplin at 6:34 PM on September 30, 2016


It was tiny, but I also donated to Hillary this evening, for the first time.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to complain that, while my donation to Patty Judge in July was small in absolute terms, it was a substantial amount for me, and the only time I've seen any advertising for her at all was when I went on YouTube to seek it out. The Judge campaign never even acknowledged the donation. I may as well have flushed my money down the toilet.

(That donation to Sanders didn't really accomplish what I'd hoped either, but I hear that might still work out.)

I at least have faith that Hillary knows how to use campaign donations to get elected. And she sent me two e-mails immediately. (Both asking for more money. WTF, Hils? You think I got paid in the 12 minutes between clicking "donate" and you sending out the e-mail?)
posted by Spathe Cadet at 6:36 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]




But that has been his whole godforsaken campaign.

It's very "I know you are but what am I"/"I am rubber and you are glue," isn't it? It's very common tactic among the right wing to just mirror left wing arguments against them regardless of applicability, as if we're saying nothing more than, "You're a poopyhead," and they're coming back with, "No, you're a poopyhead!" People like that don't understand what an argument is. They just think you're calling them a name and call you it back.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:39 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


MAC trunks do have very pointy plastic edges.
posted by Flashman at 6:41 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


No, she for sure has to whack him with a massive case full of makeup.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 6:42 PM on September 30, 2016 [44 favorites]


MAC trunk.

Mack truck?


Yes. Oops lol

And at least now I'm laughing.
posted by Jalliah at 6:45 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


The plot surrounding the Clintons' pets thickens. In writing about the death of Buddy, Slate not only points out Sidney Blumenthal's role in the sordid affair (dude has his fingers in everything!) but also points out the peculiar disappearance of a relevant witness (emphasis mine):
One who might know the answer to some of the questions surrounding Buddy is Trumper, Buddy's neighbor. (See "Who Is Trumper?" WSJ, Aug. 2001.) But, as if to silence this witness months before the event, Trumper, a Shih Tzu, was put down by its owner in October. Was Trumper ill—or simply another name on the growing list of Clinton victims?
"Trumper"? It all fits together! "Donald J. Trump" was actually the pseudonym adopted in 2002 by an elderly Shih Tzu who feared for his life and adopted the disguise of a billionaire real estate magnate. His campaign is a desperate attempt to bring the murderers of his neighbor and best friend to justice.

Look, it explains the hair. And the bad temper.
posted by jackbishop at 6:45 PM on September 30, 2016 [22 favorites]


No, she for sure has to whack him with a massive case full of makeup.

The Ultamate weapon.
posted by cashman at 6:48 PM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


I really want a high quality Texas state poll right now.
posted by Talez at 6:50 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


It would be interesting but Texas is almost certainly a bridge too far. By the time you get Texas you're at 330 EV already or something.
posted by Justinian at 6:55 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary Clinton "Evil Dumb Genius"

See also: Sec. Clinton is so weak and frail that she needs to be propped up on pillows and staggers around from event to event physically dragged by her aides, yet she is able to mastermind poll-rigging, vote-rigging, debate-rigging, and a couple of murders.

Hillary Clinton "Frail Powerful Mastermind"
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:00 PM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


Comments upthread prompted me to make another donation to Hillary, as well. Thanks for the reminder :)
posted by wallabear at 7:02 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


It would be interesting but Texas is almost certainly a bridge too far. By the time you get Texas you're at 330 EV already or something.

Typically yes but apparently Latino parts of Texas have been seeing record registration numbers since the debate. I wouldn't be surprised to see Trump's lead start to evaporate.
posted by Talez at 7:09 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


We'll see. Latino turnout in Texas is indeed expected to rise. From an extremely low number to a slightly less but still extremely low number.
posted by Justinian at 7:10 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


The NYTimes isn't pulling any punches (and, finally, demonstrate they can make it through an election story without asking if both sides do it): As America Sleeps, Donald Trump Seethes on Twitter.
posted by peeedro at 7:13 PM on September 30, 2016 [11 favorites]


No, serious, if eligible LatinX voters reistered and voted, even accounting for ultra-conservative Catholic Abuelas, it's a walk in the park for Team Blue in Texas. Figure out why they won't and don't, make a plan to overcome that, and win.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:14 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Agree that it'd be fun to see a TX poll, but I don't expect her to lead, just to be close enough to make 'em sweat.

Now an AZ poll right now -- that might be something else.
posted by saturday_morning at 7:17 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's worrying him, though. That whole stream of consciousness rant about illegals voting at the end of the debate was what he's thinking about. Guy can't keep anything to himself. Texas new voters.
posted by ctmf at 7:17 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Maybe tomorrow if y'all can help me get over the phone fear I'll make some calls.. (I hate the phone with an ungodly passion)...

I've done three shifts of phone banking so far, about 6 hours. I would say I've spent about thirty minutes of that actually talking to people. Maybe less. There are a lot of people who don't answer. But, when I do get a live human being, they're almost always nice. Even the 70-something Republican attorney who I called (we chatted for 15 minutes, and he's voting for HRC, but staying R for the rest of the ticket) was wonderful. I've been asking for volunteers so far, and the people who don't or can't volunteer always thank me for doing what I'm doing. It's really been a lovely experience, even though most of it is just checking off "Not at home."

When I went this Thursday, the campaign office was so full of volunteers, people were sitting on the floor making calls. It's been so great so see all these people active and excited about a candidate, especially a woman. It's an antidote to the panic that rises when/if HRC's polls sink.
posted by gladly at 7:18 PM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


No, serious, if eligible LatinX voters reistered and voted, even accounting for ultra-conservative Catholic Abuelas, it's a walk in the park for Team Blue in Texas. Figure out why they won't and don't, make a plan to overcome that, and win.

Right, if Latinx voters voted at the same rate as white voters Clinton would win in a massive landslide.
posted by Justinian at 7:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Or African American voters, I should say! I believe the single most reliable voter demographic is black women.
posted by Justinian at 7:20 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


So what's the matter with Texas?
posted by schadenfrau at 7:22 PM on September 30, 2016


(Actually asking)
posted by schadenfrau at 7:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


HRC: Donald, would you like to trade mics before we start?

Donald: "But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of woman who would put the faulty microphone onto her own podium or her enemy's? Now, a clever woman would put the faulty microphone onto her own podium, because she would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the microphone in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the microphone in front of me."
posted by Devils Rancher at 7:23 PM on September 30, 2016 [39 favorites]


You mean why the low voter turnout among Hispanic voters there? I actually read about that a few days ago. As with everything, it's complicated. Economic factors contribute (but those same factors affect African American voters and turnout among AA voters is much higher), discrimination contributes (but see previous caveat), and there are significant cultural factors at play. A lot of Hispanic voters in Texas feel like the system is rigged and corrupt and their vote wouldn't/doesn't matter. It sounded very similar to the rhetoric out of the Bernie people.
posted by Justinian at 7:24 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm also in for a few more bucks to close out September.
posted by zachlipton at 7:24 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Watching Lawrence O'Donnell and the guests are all talking about how easy it is to needle Trump. This could be a new national pastime.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:27 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Cookiebastard: Hillary Clinton "Frail Powerful Mastermind"

see also: Barack Obama - ineffective, failure of a leader who is a diabolical dictator scheming to take away our freedoms and guns.
posted by bluecore at 7:27 PM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


Yeah I splurged on more gear and added to my monthly. The National Service Reserve really got me--I would have signed up for that after college, no question. I'm kind of pissed I didn't get to, but maybe they'll take retirees on the other end.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:28 PM on September 30, 2016 [13 favorites]


Yeah, I've always wondered about Texas and Latinx voters here. I don't know why turnout is so low, although I suspect it has to do with a lack of outreach. Democrats here just don't have the funding, but I suspect if the national party allocated the resources for a couple years of voter outreach and registration by going into communities and (literally) speaking the language, you'd see a huge shift.

Already Texas is gerrymandered to hell and back by our POS state legislature. I was looking at congressional districts recently and my old district in Houston (Sheila Jackson-Lee's district) is ridiculously shaped to include basically all the majority Black neighborhoods in the entire city, by snaking around in a bulgy semi-circle. It's honestly as if they just took a demographics map and circled the areas with high African-American residency and called it a district. I'm sure other districts are similarly gauged to concentrate Latinx and other voters, though it's less obvious because those communities aren't as concentrated into historically segregated neighborhoods.
posted by threeturtles at 7:30 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Every time y'all talk about your Hillary gear I get the sad. I want some! :D
posted by Jalliah at 7:32 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, too. Texas is seen as a safe Republican state which is going to vote Republican. So why bother voting when you know your vote isn't going to change that? And since a lot of people feel that way, Texas goes Republican again, which feeds back into the narrative.

I expect Texas will have a tipping point where the changing demographics throw it Democratic despite low turnout among Latinx voters... but having seen it happen once it will spur much greater political engagement among that population and Texas will see a wave which pushes it Democratic very very quickly rather than a slow and gradual process like we see in Ohio turning redder and Colorado turning bluer. It'll be like a light switching on in Texas.
posted by Justinian at 7:34 PM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]


It'll be like a light switching on in Texas.

I prefer to think of it as the dark switching off.
posted by notbuddha at 7:37 PM on September 30, 2016 [26 favorites]


NEW TRUMP YARD SIGNS AVAILABLE

I was trying to find my place in the thread, came across this comment, and thought for a minute I'd fallen into a mirror universe metafilter where you would all be voting Trump and linking to Breitbart (...and wearing shiny outfits and sporting tiny beards and mustaches....)

Yearrrrrrrgh. pleasedontleaveme
posted by invincible summer at 7:37 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]



It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, too. Texas is seen as a safe Republican state which is going to vote Republican. So why bother voting when you know your vote isn't going to change that? And since a lot of people feel that way, Texas goes Republican again, which feeds back into the narrative.


Yes, absolutely. I can't tell you how many people I've known here who just don't vote because they know the Republicans will win. That's why I was posting the hell out of the last poll that had Hillary within a couple points of Trump in Texas.

It's also why I voted Nader in 2000. Never again!
posted by threeturtles at 7:40 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


We have a collection of kids books from various people, including some of the Serendipity books. Tonight we read Snuffles, which seemed so very fitting. A quote:
Sniffles loved attention. She sought it in any way she could, and if that meant exaggeration, then so be it.
It's pretty much The Boy Who Cried Wolf, but with an ostrich named Snuffles. Fluffy hair, bold lies for attention, and doubling down on those lies.

So it's also about liars like Donald. Let's hope we can all laugh him off and he sticks his head in the sand in a few weeks. Not likely to all happen like that, but I'm holding onto that image.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:41 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


How is it that people are putting Trump's debate failure on Hillary being really good, instead of Trump being truly awful? Is it that his supporters, too, are coked-out gibbering idiots who are unable to string together one coherent sentence? I can see if that was the level on which you existed, you might think any semblance of acting like a normal human being suggests cheating. Is anyone else buying it?
posted by indubitable at 7:44 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I've been way behind on this thread all day. I'm hoping desperately that by the time I hit the bottom, I'll hit reports that Kellyanne Conway has been fired.
posted by invincible summer at 7:48 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


OK, I gonna do it. You guys have inspired me. I'm gonna drive up to Reno tonight from here in San Joaquin Valley, CA, and help canvass or register or enter data - whatever they need that I can do - for Hillary For America. I've registered with the campaign and booked my hotel. For someone as socially anxious as me, this is a big deal.

The thing I keep thinking is, what if Trump gets elected? How can I tell my grandkids that I didn't do everything I could to stop it?

Wish me luck.
posted by ogooglebar at 7:50 PM on September 30, 2016 [141 favorites]


I don't think he can fire Conway. That's too much. Although I did think it interesting that when I read people possibility was getting discussed on Maddow tonight. But now that it's fully on - all eyes are on the candidates post first debate, and October will be here - Trump just can't fire Conway. That would probably sink his campaign. Now, I could see them coming up with some kind of weird medical excuse.
posted by cashman at 7:53 PM on September 30, 2016


Good luck ogooglebar! Have fun stormin the castle!
posted by cashman at 7:53 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wish me luck.

Luck! You'll do great.
posted by Jalliah at 7:53 PM on September 30, 2016


TWinbrook8: "But Elvis was drafted, no?"

Yep, drafted in '58. Army service introduced him to amphetamines, an addiction that ultimately led to his death. Also where he met his future (14 years old at the time) wife.
posted by Mitheral at 8:01 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Just because firing Conway would likely sound the death knell for his campaign doesn't mean he won't do it. The man does not exactly have a reputation as a canny and pragmatic tactician. What he does have is a reputation for misogyny, scapegoating, lashing out, not taking advice, and firing people who disagree with him, especially when his campaign isn't going well.

Of course, Conway is slime and I don't particularly care whether or not she gets fired just as long as she never works again after this. I wouldn't trust her to bag my groceries; her work assaults the very notion of truth itself. She has been going on TV and attempting to gaslight people on a national scale. She has weaponized emotional abuse and attempted to use it to put a monster in power. Seriously, she's a real piece of shit.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:02 PM on September 30, 2016 [40 favorites]


> Wish me luck.

You are rad and you can do this! You have been to mefi meetups and talked with strangers from the internet! Who like you! You got this!
posted by rtha at 8:08 PM on September 30, 2016 [22 favorites]


Thank you so much, ogooglebar. :)
posted by schadenfrau at 8:11 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


She has been going on TV and attempting to gaslight people on a national scale. She has weaponized emotional abuse and attempted to use it to put a monster in power. Seriously, she's a real piece of shit.

Agreed. I wish her intros on television shows could be preceded by this. Like "Good morning, today we have Donald Trump's campaign manager Kellyanne Conway. She has been going on TV and attempting to gaslight people on a national scale. She has weaponized emotional abuse and attempted to use it to put a monster in power. Seriously, she's a real piece of shit." :crowd applauds confusedly:
posted by cashman at 8:12 PM on September 30, 2016 [41 favorites]


I know I'm late to the derail, but how about a Big Mac Truck?
I live to pun.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:12 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


he was up pretty late last night and needs to go down for a nap.

I don't have to take a nap YOU have to take a nap! You have to take TWO naps and I'm going to stay up late and I don't have to take a nap! NO! She was fat! My microphone was WRONG and she was mean TO ME AND I DON'T WANNA NAP I WANNA RICH AND HAVE HAIIIIIRRRRR . . .

*head tilts back, snores, snaps to*

And I want hamburgers and more money. Not gonna nap! Don't want to. Gonna win secret states. Putin likes me. He doesn't have to nap.
/pout
/tweet
posted by petebest at 8:15 PM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


I think it would be the perfect capstone for this election if Trump loses the election because he didn't bother to ask an aide "Who's that porno star?"
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]




Have sympathy for the political reporters.

Yeeeeahhhh.... not so much. As a class, political reporting has been lazy and spent more time playing "let's pretend objective truth is between the 2 campaigns." There are laudable exceptions, but as an industry and as a service for the public good, American journalism in 2016 have given tacit approval to the most indisputably mendacious campaign run by the most venal, abusive candidate since Nixon. And at this point, I think Trump is arguably worse than Nixon, so that would throw it to probably a century and a half.

When the primary thread of Clinton coverage remains to be that she is "untrustworthy" and Trump is polling competitively, the political reporters have failed. I have no sympathy.
posted by tclark at 8:30 PM on September 30, 2016 [19 favorites]


One of the most amusing fictions advanced by Trumpists is the notion that Hillary might have had some person behind the scenes feeding her answers during the debate. Who do they think that person would have been? There is literally nobody in the world more qualified to come up with answers to Presidential debate questions in 2016 than Hillary herself.

The thing about this that I don't get is...I mean, just think about it. My opponent is going to say something and I have to respond. Now! In real time! If Clinton did have Cyrano hiding in the bushes and telling her what to say, Trumps surrogates would have spent all day Tuesday saying that it looked like she was having a string of transient ischemic attacks. And they'd be right. It's an idea that would only work in a Commedia dell'arte performance and only then because the guy playing Captain Spavento would know to not interrupt her during her humorous asides to the audience. The Captain Spavento she was actually debating apparently missed that bit in improv 101 and interrupted her all the damn time.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 8:33 PM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


One of the most amusing fictions advanced by Trumpists is the notion that Hillary might have had some person behind the scenes feeding her answers during the debate. Who do they think that person would have been?

Some guy, I would expect.
posted by invincible summer at 8:43 PM on September 30, 2016 [20 favorites]


How in the hell does he think he can get away with saying he was faithful?

It was Hillary who introduced him to Marla in the first place. Hillary wanted to sleep with Marla but couldn't get it done, so Trump had to do it. He did a very good job and he's very proud of the job he did. But it was Hillary who started it all.
posted by invincible summer at 8:48 PM on September 30, 2016 [15 favorites]


Ladies and gentlemen once again Elizabeth Warren delivers the burn of the day pointing out that Donald isn't up at night thinking about creating jobs or making America great; he is attacking women.
posted by humanfont at 8:58 PM on September 30, 2016 [46 favorites]


Well, I disagree.. someone providing notes, reminders, details to a candidate during the opponent's timeslot would be obviously helpful. Even just psychologically this would help a lot. Consider just Rick Perry's... episode and two recent Johnson moments. If you look at the other side, Trump would benefit a lot if he had a team feeding him tips and corrections remotely.

Of course there's no evidence either of them were getting outside help, that's the rub.
posted by rainy at 8:59 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'd forgotten about the Trump/Clinton armed services forum until just now. I didn't see the Hillary part and all I remember is that everyone hated Matt Lauer, and that Trump screwed up that question about veteran suicide rates. But both candidates did take questions from the audience so won't the next debate, the Town Hall, be similar? As in, not good?
posted by TWinbrook8 at 9:05 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm another long time lurker (since July of 2004 or so) who finally felt compelled to join. I've been following the election threads since the primaries and I'm pretty sure I've read every comment in every thread since the conventions, and frankly haven't gotten a whole lot else done. All the thoughtful comments and links and support for people considering volunteering has been amazing. My anxiety about the election was starting to ramp up just before the debate and I decided that calling strangers on the phone couldn't possibly be worse for me than the feeling of not having done something to stop Trump and make sure Hillary is elected, so I stopped by my local field office--in Colorado Springs, where Trump got stuck in an elevator and yelled at the fire marshal. I haven't done any phone banking yet, but I've done two shifts of voter registration and went canvassing for the first time tonight. I took my 8 and 11 year old kids with me, after asking if they wanted to do it. My son (the 8 year old) came home from school pretty bummed earlier this week, after realizing that a lot of his friends' parents support Trump. We knocked on a bunch of doors tonight, encouraged people to vote for Hillary and re-elect Sen Bennet and even got a few more volunteers signed up. People were friendly and it was fun. I feel like Metafilter gets some credit, because people telling their stories about volunteering made it far less intimidating for me. I plan on asking how I can help with 2018, because I agree with those who've said that the midterms are critical. (Not advocating election mega-threads every week between now and then, though.)
posted by danielleh at 9:08 PM on September 30, 2016 [139 favorites]


Here's the full text of Trump's bit on voter fraud today. He encourages his supporters to go to polling places and "make sure it's on the up-and-up" (a phrase he uses four times).

I presume, to his supporters, "on the up-and-up" means not having any visible minorities voting.
posted by zachlipton at 9:09 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]


Right, but you have to look down at your phantom prompter, or at you confederate in the audience, or listen to your super secret radio and process what they're saying. Which means taking your eye off the ball and awkward pauses. As has been said upthread, looking calm and in control is maybe more vital to your success in these things than the words you say. I'm don't think you can manage that AND be deciphering messages from Supreme Leader Snoke at the same time.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 9:16 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]


Welcome, danielleh! Thank you so much for volunteering.
Once I've recovered sufficiently from my surgery this week to be able to spend time out in the world and talk for at least a couple of hours, I'll be back on the volunteering bandwagon with a vengeance. For now, I'm loving the stories of people biting the bullet.

I honestly don't know what I'd be doing with myself through this election season if it weren't for these threads. I treasure Metafilter and all of you and not just because yes I've had a couple of glasses of wine in lieu of painkillers tonight.
posted by Superplin at 9:17 PM on September 30, 2016 [12 favorites]


Worth noting that what Trump told his supporters to do today constitutes intimidation and is illegal in most jurisdictions.

The Republican nominee for President is openly encouraging illegal voter suppression and intimidation. I expect no elected Republicans will say a word. They're all Trump, they own every word he says, and never get to pretend otherwise.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:22 PM on September 30, 2016 [39 favorites]


Kid Charlemagne: with no preparation, you are perhaps right. With preparation, the way it would be done is that there would be short specific code words e.g. to pivot to a specific attack, bring up a rehearsed anecdote, i.e. no messages would be longer than 1-2 words. And of course, when opponent is speaking, there wouldn't need to be an awkward pause so you could get in a longer message.

There's one specific segment where Trump would be helped by this: when discussing cyber warfare, he forgot to bring up the emails kerfuffle.
posted by rainy at 9:26 PM on September 30, 2016


Trump needs to wow people with his "genuine" affection for the small people at the Town Hall. He needs to show that no matter what the question that someone asks of him that at least for a small period of time he is able to make that person the center of the universe. Their problems become his problems.

Viewers want to see that moment of connection and genuine empathy (not just faux sympathy) because it allows them to picture themselves talking to the President and that the President will listen to their problems and then move heaven and earth to fix their problem.

In general it's manipulative political theatre but if you come off as rude, or unable to relate to the audience member, or out of touch, or any number of character flaws Trump is unlikely to conquer between now and next Sunday you are going to lose support (or at least fail to win over converts).

The reality is that unless Trump not only erodes Hillary's current groundswell of support and also grows his base he's simple not going to be President. And time is running out.

In contrast Clinton is actually really good at doing the Town Hall format, she's good at reaching out and empathizing with people. Unfortunately we rarely get to see her in her element because I guess it's boring to journalists.

Yes she's not anywhere near as slick as her husband but the guy is pretty much a freak of nature but she's going to come off pretty well, maybe not Obama quality but still pretty good.

But the reality is that it's looking like the unthinkable might actually happen and Trump's wounded pride might make him bow out of the next two debates by using some crazy conspiracy theory. Some of his supporters might even buy into his narrative but the optics in general would be awful perhaps almost as bad as badly losing the 2 remaining debates.
posted by vuron at 9:27 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


danielleh: I'm really happy to hear that you're contributing, keep up the good work!!
posted by rainy at 9:27 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm guessing he'll drop out of one debate, see his numbers take a hit, then decide to do the debate after all claiming they made concessions to him.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:30 PM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


One issue is that the GOP has been under a longstanding consent decree to prevent them from engaging in certain voter suppression activities, including:
(e) refrain from undertaking any ballot security activities in polling places or election districts where the racial or ethnic composition of such districts is a factor in the decision to conduct, or the actual conduct of, such activities there and where a purpose or significant effect of such activities is to deter qualified voters from voting; and the conduct of such activities disproportionately in or directed toward districts that have a substantial proportion of racial or ethnic populations shall be considered relevant evidence of the existence of such a factor and purpose…
Nobody knows if Trump counts as an agent of the GOP of this purpose, but one could make a good argument that it's no accident that Trump seems to be worried about voter fraud when discussing the areas around Detroit and Philadelphia specifically.
posted by zachlipton at 9:31 PM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


There's a real chance the dude just fucking loses it in the next one.

I was a bit skeptical before the debate, but Clinton's strategy of baiting him was masterful. At the very moment when millions of voters started paying serious attention for the first time, she goaded him into full-on Khan-style meltdown mode.

The fact that she succeeded despite clearly telegraphing her strategy beforehand is amazing. Trump knew (or should have known) that it would happen, and that she would hit him on his obvious weaknesses, including his misogyny problem. And yet...

Dude can't keep a lid on his own fractured id for ninety minutes, with his own election on the line – and he wants us to believe that he's more temperamentally suited for the Presidency?

Trump's just been publicly humiliated by a woman, the media narrative was turning against him even before that ("liar", etc.), his team is reportedly in disarray, and the Machado thing has him trapped in his familiar cycle of doubling/tripling/quadrupling down on a very bad look. And the next debate between Trump and Clinton is in eight days. You know that Clinton's camp has a whole stable of bombs ready to drop.

So, yeah. People were saying months ago that he wouldn't be able to handle the pressure once the general election really got underway. His performance in the first debate was a widely acknowledged disaster. I definitely won't be surprised if he flames out even more spectacularly in the second or third.

I think it's more likely to happen in the third – the town hall format insulates him from the worst of his triggers (being questioned, challenged, pressed to be nominally coherent and honest, etc.). But I can also see him going off the rails in the town hall – just, you know, differently. Either way, he's not going to match Clinton's charm and polish. At best, he'll fuddle his way through, manage not to fling any feces, and still be declared the loser.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:41 PM on September 30, 2016 [40 favorites]


"Mr. Trump, aiming to unnerve Mrs. Clinton, even indicated that he was rethinking his statement at their last debate that he would “absolutely” support her if she won in November"

He's not "rethinking" per se, he's just saying words that pop into his head.

"re's the full text of Trump's bit on voter fraud today. He encourages his supporters to go to polling places and "make sure it's on the up-and-up" (a phrase he uses four times). I presume, to his supporters, "on the up-and-up" means not having any visible minorities voting"

As I have said before, if anything even a little like this happens, call your local Democratic party and COME AT ME, BRO.

Seriously, call, I wanna be in the paper as Captain America For Democracy! Plus my brother got to have someone arrested once when HE was poll-lawyering and I need a story to beat his at Thanksgiving!

Quote from before:
I volunteer as an emergency lawyer for my local Democratic party every election, which means that when the Democratic poll watchers see a problem, or the county party gets a call, they have a list of lawyers on speed dial that they can physically dispatch to the polling location. Once there, wearing my good suit and pearls and carrying my trusty handbook, I'm responsible for preserving evidence, bickering with the election officials on your behalf, and staring down any threatening jackasses while calling the cops. (Probably 90% of this is calling back in to the county HQ where they have an actual elections lawyer standing next to a phone who coaches the on-site lawyer what to do and say and makes a record of what's happening.) There is a three-hour training and a manual of common situations.

posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:59 PM on September 30, 2016 [82 favorites]


danielleh, way to go! I'm also in COS and hope to run into you sometime at the field office!
posted by mochapickle at 10:00 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Before the town hall, we get to see Kaine show up Pence - Kaine is a smooth and friendly speaker, and genuinely likes answering complicated questions, breaking them down to show how A and B and C all fit together to lead to his conclusion. Pence, OTOH, even if he liked debates and liked people - and we have no evidence of either of those - is stuck with answering questions about a campaign whose policies he didn't choose and often doesn't agree with.

Kaine is eager to answer the questions, "what will you do to support your candidate's presidency? Which weak points are you going to strengthen; which strong points will you be able to make even stronger?" Pence has got to be dreading those.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:02 PM on September 30, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump on Clinton: 'I can be nastier than she ever can be'

This is really, really not going to go well for him. He has literally no idea how to appeal to anyone except the deplorables.

It's like watching a man screaming "oh yeah? take THIS!" ...and pulling the trigger of a gun aimed at his own face.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:14 PM on September 30, 2016 [21 favorites]


Two things that strike me:
  1. The Clinton campaign seems to have done a much better job recently communicating H's warmth and personability. In the past she always struck me as very cold, calculating and efficient (which given gender crap is unforgivable for her) and yet you see so many people close to her saying "we don't get it". Damn good job there.
  2. I honestly don't think Donald has ever been in a knife fight with an opponent this skilled and subtle and it shows. (obligatory note of "good and I hope he and his ilk choke on it")
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:24 PM on September 30, 2016 [9 favorites]


Thank you so much for volunteering, danielleh. And welcome to MetaFilter.
posted by nangar at 10:47 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


I wonder if Pence is just going to break down and sob, smearing tears over his face and be like, "guys, I hate that bastard :(".
posted by rainy at 10:47 PM on September 30, 2016 [14 favorites]


These threads are helping me survive my Facebook feeds. Thank you, MeFi.

I have to keep from strangling lefty idiot friends who post political quotations they don't understand about Controlled Opposition to explain why they are actually fighting the power by voting for Stein. Apparently, Sanders has now been revealed as an agent of the conspiracy.

By the way, the millennials I know seem to be just fine-- maybe not overjoyed by HRC, but not crazy either. The serious crazy is coming from my age cohorts (read: Generation X) who are frothing at the mouth about Clinton.

By the way, Stein is now apparently doubling down on the "Trump is the lesser evil" thing. She really is a suppurating pustulant boil on the butt of humanity.
posted by frumiousb at 10:52 PM on September 30, 2016 [29 favorites]


Trump just can't fire Conway. That would probably sink his campaign.

Have faith in Trump's Razor.
posted by mazola at 11:11 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


By the way, Stein is now apparently doubling down on the "Trump is the lesser evil" thing. She really is a suppurating pustulant boil on the butt of humanity.

It will surely be gratifying to her ego if Trump wins because of her candidacy. I'm sure the thirty years of more conservative supreme court decisions week support the positions she purports to believe in.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:28 PM on September 30, 2016 [16 favorites]


Also it's not yet midnight here so I made another donation to Clinton because I do want a progressive SCOTUS.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:30 PM on September 30, 2016 [10 favorites]


One issue is that the GOP has been under a longstanding consent decree to prevent them from engaging in certain voter suppression activities,…
Nobody knows if Trump counts as an agent of the GOP of this purpose, but one could make a good argument that it's no accident that Trump seems to be worried about voter fraud when discussing the areas around Detroit and Philadelphia specifically.


Dems ought to be able to get an injunction against Trump based on this ruling and Trump's statement urging his followers to violate the ruling, right?
posted by msalt at 11:32 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


The fact that she succeeded despite clearly telegraphing her strategy beforehand is amazing.

Like I said in the debate thread, she didn't just prep against a psych profile, she prepped the specific clinical techniques that expose it. So not necessarily amazing if you accept the premise that narcissists gonna narcissist.
posted by holgate at 11:42 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Like I said in the debate thread, she didn't just prep against a psych profile, she prepped the specific clinical techniques that expose it. So not necessarily amazing if you accept the premise that narcissists gonna narcissist.

And Donny's tantrums after being beaten like a rented mule go back into refining his psychological profile, and HRC refines those clinical techniques. The town-hall is going to decimate him.
posted by mikelieman at 11:54 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]


Town Hell.
posted by mazola at 11:57 PM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump can't be trusted with [noun].
posted by mazola at 12:03 AM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


That's true, Trump can't be trusted with most nouns. Not a lot of adjectives either.
posted by nonasuch at 12:08 AM on October 1, 2016 [37 favorites]


Like I said in the debate thread, she didn't just prep against a psych profile, she prepped the specific clinical techniques that expose it. So not necessarily amazing if you accept the premise that narcissists gonna narcissist.

Clinical techniques aren't weapons to be used in this manner, and this portrayal of science being applied in this way squicks me. I don't know if you're a psychologist or trained in the field, but my understanding is that modern practice is not remotely about "exposing" people who "are" "[diagnostic category]". Maybe 30 or 40 years ago, sure, when the profession was more authoritarian and racist (see: sociology of psychiatry/therapy). Today, that anachronistic view contributes to stigma and misrepresentation of mental health issues.

Aside from that, I'm sure your general point about Clinton's use of new/effective psychological interaction strategies would still hold.

I also looked up the concept of narcissistic injury, and if you read the meaning of the term and explanation in full, it's hard to not empathize with someone such a narcissistic condition. The theorists posit it as a severe psychic injury underlying the outside, dysregulated behavior. So if we're gonna bring in psychology concepts, let's do it the justice it deserves.
posted by polymodus at 12:23 AM on October 1, 2016 [14 favorites]


Ha ha polymodus! Making me feel empathy for The Donald.
Damn.
(Makes gloating very very difficult)
posted by From Bklyn at 12:38 AM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Clinical techniques aren't weapons to be used in this manner

99999 times out of 100000, yes. But in truth, a lot of those times are in settings where the person under evaluation has already done bad (often criminal) things to others, and the goal is to manage things thereafter as best as possible. In this particular instance, I think the squick is an acceptable price in exchange for keeping Trump away from the nuclear football.

(IANAP, but I spend a lot of time around mental health clinicians.)
posted by holgate at 12:42 AM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


I would feel squicked also IF this was in the context of Donnie engaging with a professional directly in "modern practice", since using psychological techniques like this in the context of therapy would be a violation of professional ethics.

But it's more like FBI profiling of a threat, and then developing tactics to counter that threat.
posted by mikelieman at 12:42 AM on October 1, 2016 [13 favorites]


There are many mental conditions caused by abuse, but Donald Trump is proof that protection from any consequences for your actions for your entire life can also be emotionally disastrous.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:44 AM on October 1, 2016 [12 favorites]


How in the hell does he think he can get away with saying he was faithful?

This Vox article is very relevant to that question...
He can only process accusations — of dishonesty, of cruelty — as social gambits, not as factual claims. To him, the demand that he apologize or admit error is nothing more than a dominance play. Apologizing is losing."
This previously linked Fred Clark piece is relevant as well, and I think maybe a little closer to the mark, though probably both things are going on...
But for Trump and his followers, truthfulness is a measure of sincerity — of correspondence with internal sentiment. So Trump says, during the debate, that he was “smart” not to pay any taxes — a sincere, unfiltered expression of what he was feeling at that moment when he spoke those words. But asked about it an hour later he realizes that it wasn’t a smart thing to have said and he truly, sincerely wishes he hadn’t said it. That’s the sentiment behind his statement, “I never said that.” What he means is “I wish I hadn’t said that. It would be better if I hadn’t said that. I would like us all to pretend I’d never said that.” And that’s truthful — he really does wish he hadn’t said that. He really would like everyone to join him in pretending he hadn’t. He means that sincerely and genuinely, and thus his words align perfectly with his emotions and internal sentiments. And thus, to him and to his supporters, he is being truthful.
 
Since I finally caught up and have a backlog of links...

Fred Clark also has an eye-opening look at the overlap between the anti-Semitic "alt right" and the "classical" anti-Semitism of the John Birch society.

And on a lighter note...

The Clinton campaign really needs to spread the link to the
buck Trump game again before the next debate. Every time Trump says something horrible, you poke the little bobble head Trump avatar and thereby donate $1 to yhe Hillary Victory Fund. It very thereputic to have this open if you must watch him speak.

Finally,   some thoughts about the cultural implications of the candidates going by Hillary and Donald ... Which might partly answer the question somewhere upthread about why the VP candidates don't get name checked as often as usual, because it feels weird to call them "Tim" and "Mike" in the same way, but also weird to talk about "Hillary and Kaine" for instance.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:51 AM on October 1, 2016 [22 favorites]


So hypothetically, how much of a problem is it if one has a (active, imaginative, weak on social skills) four-year-old in tow and one wants to help out at a campaign event?
posted by Scattercat at 12:56 AM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


"What he means is “I wish I hadn’t said that. It would be better if I hadn’t said that."

Which is literally a developmental phase of kindergartners, who often lie not so much to calculatingly avoid punishment but because they want to "undo" the reality by insisting it didn't happen and don't fully understand that doesn't work. (With a kid you say, "I know you WISH you didn't eat mom's candybar ...") Donnie, I know you WISH you didn't commit all that tax fraud, but you can't undo it by saying it didn't happen ...

Scattercat, I have a lot of friends who canvass with their children (on foot or in strollers) ... To them it just a walk with a lot of stopping. If there's a flyer drop (as opposed to a door knock walk) you might prefer that. Plan for your child's stamina or have someone to take a kid handoff when she gets tired. Sometimes there are weird little cul-de-sac neighborhoods or cut-off subdivisions or single apartment buildings in an industrial park that only take an hour or so to canvas but require a special trip ... You could volunteer for those.

I volunteer for sign drop off and pick up, since I can fit a lot of signs in my minivan and my kids don't mind driving around town. They especially like post-election pickup when we make a game of being the first to spot the sign we have to "steal." It's time-consuming but easy, so it frees up non-child-encumbered volunteers for more difficult work. Campaigns may need other stuff run around town and dropped at various locations or with volunteers and that's very easy to do with a kid.

There are quite often little kids at literature and swag tables at events. There are always babies being worn, too. There are always kids at fundraising dinners. They will always be playing tag in the field at summer picnic events and hiding in the coatroom at winter gala events. So yeah, not weird. They're everywhere.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 1:18 AM on October 1, 2016 [18 favorites]


I just saw a few minutes of Obama speaking at Shimon Peres' funeral.

And I couldn't help wondering what Trump would had made out of the occasion:

"Dear guests,
I'm honored to speak here at the funeral of Simon Peres, a great man, a great leader of the great country of Israel. Now, I have never had the honor of meeting Simon personally, but people tell me that he was a great guy. And that he was for peace. On the way from the airport, Bibi told me a few stories about Simon, such as the time when ... [adjusts microphone] ... he was a great guy. And on the way from the airport, I could also see ... you know this is my first time in Isreal ... I could also see what a great country this is. You guys did a tremendous job of building this country with your bare hands - just like I built my business, a tremendous success, out of nothing. And just like me, you have some very successful businesses. And there's something else you have. You have lots of beautiful girls. Speaking of which, is Bar Rafaeli around? I'm a big fan of Bar. Met her once at one of Ivanka's parties. Is she here? [looks around and waves vaguely into the distance.] ... "Hey Bar. How are things going with Leonardo?" She may be Jewish, but she married an American guy, although I heard there are some problems. "Hey Bar, if things don't work out with Leonardo, you know who to call!" ... Jewish girl - American guy, what a great combination. But things can also go the other way around. My daughter Ivanka, my beautiful daughter Ivanka, she married a Jewish guy. Did you know that? But that's OK. I respect him. He is a very successful person. So I know a lot about your Jewish traditions. I know so much about Jewish traditions. I love gefilte fish. That matzo stuff [sniffles] not so much. Who came up with that? As I just said, I have great respect for the Jewish people. To tell you the truth, I feel a deep connection to you. You people are good with money - I'm good with money. Was Simon Peres good with money? I don't know. But I know one thing. When the time came, he made the right decision and he built that wall. Bibi told me about it. You build a successful country, you get people banging at your door that want in, that want to be a part of it, it's only natural. But then you need a strong leader who has the courage to build a wall. Simon was such a strong leader.
Mazeltov."

posted by sour cream at 1:18 AM on October 1, 2016 [23 favorites]


Crud. I screwed up the hypertext, but if you click the words "buck Trump" in my comment above, it really does take you to the game, whereas the previous linked words take you to the Fred Clark "Breitbart, baptized" article.
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:30 AM on October 1, 2016


"She was Bruce Springsteen just getting warmed up after 90 minutes; he was fat Elvis forgetting the words to 'Are You Lonesome Tonight. '"

Bill Maher, Real Time, September 30, 2016
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:37 AM on October 1, 2016 [11 favorites]


oneswellfoop: "There are many mental conditions caused by abuse, but Donald Trump is proof that protection from any consequences for your actions for your entire life can also be emotionally disastrous."

I'm pretty sure he grew up in an abusive household, at a minimum. He has all the characteristics of someone whose father was a narcissist, and who was given the role of "golden boy" by his father, with a "safe" but enabling mother. He also says little about his childhood in interviews and biographies, saying that he doesn't remember it. This is a common issue with people who experienced lots of trauma as a child. The golden boy role is the way you describe, typically. There were some consequences, such as Donald going to military school for his often violent, anti-social behavior (which may have enforced aspects of it, unfortunately), but for the most part his father never enforced boundaries. But in a household with a narcissist who ends up giving his children roles like the golden boy, it's always abusive, even if one child is never hit or given discipline. In fact, that can be a form of abuse in itself, for many reasons (especially with other household members being abused directly). Witnessing trauma can be the cause of PTSD.

This is not to say that anyone should have sympathy for Donald Trump. I have PTSD from abuse, having grown up being abused by my father, who is narcissistic (maybe not full blown NPD). I don't have sympathy for Trump at all. In fact I think he's very dangerous in his quest for power and has generated an enormous amount of ill-will throughout his life. But I do have empathy for him. He didn't ask to be raised the way he was. He is very insecure and is constantly fighting a battle within himself, which is externalized. I don't think he's happy, in the fully-realized-human-being sense, or has experienced what it feels like to be vulnerable and at peace within himself. He doesn't know how to connect with people; all he knows is how to manipulate. He is unaware how much of his behavior is ruled by his desire for attention, to his detriment, and to the detriment of others. It's a desperate need, and will always be an empty hole that he tries to fill, like an addict. If he stopped even for a moment, he'd have to be with himself, and that terrifies him.

None of this excuses his behavior nor its affect on others. He must take responsibility for his actions, especially his treatment of other people, and accept the consequences, including self-examination and taking steps to heal. I doubt that will ever happen. In the meantime, his attempt to win the presidency is a threat to everyone. I have zero problem if Clinton's team is using his psychological problems against him. In any case, you don't have to be a psychologist to understand the pattern of behavior Trump follows, and his glaring weak spots. Going at his weaknesses is the only way to truly defeat him politically. At a basic level, it's how the political game is played.
posted by krinklyfig at 3:01 AM on October 1, 2016 [66 favorites]


I just finished listening to a local public radio interview of David Cay Johnston, the guy who literally wrote the book on Trump. He told an absolutely fascinating story about how Trump associated and worked with a guy who was later indicted as a major cocaine and marijuana trafficker for the mob. Even though this association put his casino license at huge risk, Trump continually contracted his helicopter company to work for the casinos. Trump continued this association even after he was indicted, ultimately writing a character reference calling for a light sentence. Here's the crazy part. The mobster wanted his case to be heard in either Miami, where he picked up the drugs, or NYC, where he lived. Neither the defense attorney nor the prosecutor could recall why, but the case was relocated to a federal court in Newark, NJ to be heard by one Judge Maryanne Trump Barry. After three weeks she recused herself, and was forced to explain that she'd been riding around in helicopters with a dude indicted for major drug trafficking and could not therefore hear the case.

No transcript as far as I can tell, but the interview is well worth listening to.
posted by xyzzy at 3:51 AM on October 1, 2016 [19 favorites]


OnceUponATime: "Finally, some thoughts about the cultural implications of the candidates going by Hillary and Donald ... Which might partly answer the question somewhere upthread about why the VP candidates don't get name checked as often as usual, because it feels weird to call them "Tim" and "Mike" in the same way, but also weird to talk about "Hillary and Kaine" for instance."

I made a conscious choice around the beginning of the primaries always to refer to Hillary Clinton by her last name. I fully expected an unholy fuckload of misogyny to be unleashed during the election season from all sides (even so, wildly underestimated how much), and I feel it's the least I can do as man to refer to her in a way that doesn't indicate disrespect. Her campaign uses her first name, and that's her choice (in part to claim her identity apart from Bill), but IMO using her last name is what's appropriate on my part because it's the typical form for men. I'm excited for the day when Clinton's formal title will be "Madam President." Can't wait to hear people say it, or to pull up a news article and see it being used by the media and elected officials.

I've also started referring to Donald Trump by his first name, for the same reasons. But no silly nicknames for anyone. Also a choice. YMMV. I tend to tune people out when they go on about "Killary," or "Obozo," or "ReThuglicans," or anything like that.
posted by krinklyfig at 3:57 AM on October 1, 2016 [21 favorites]


On-message shade being thrown by the Hillary twitter account: It's 3:20am, as good a time as any to talk about national service
posted by strange chain at 4:21 AM on October 1, 2016 [54 favorites]




Nigel Farage to coach Donald Trump before next presidential debate

TRUMP: What was Wenger thinking sending Walcott on that early?
CLINTON: ...
TRUMP: The thing about Arsenal is, they always try and walk it in!
posted by PenDevil at 4:45 AM on October 1, 2016 [58 favorites]


So, tehhund just favorited the comment I made on August 13 about how "there are 33,497 surviving comments in all of the election threads since the start of the RNC 26 days ago."
posted by J.K. Seazer at 4:52 AM on October 1, 2016 [38 favorites]


I was waiting for the first debate to see if this would bear out, but I think the left can start using "loser" as a line of attack against Trump. It sucks that it's not effective to say "he has literally said he will use nuclear weapons if his feelings get hurt" and have that be enough for people to not vote for him but there's no rationality here.

Just looking at the clips, Clinton looked calm and composed and fun to be around while Trump was sputtering. His campaign/life is predicated on being a "winner" but I think the time is right to say "I don't know, he kind of seems like a loser to me? He's declared bankruptcy like six times. He can't keep a wife for more than a couple years- I guess they stay with him long enough to get alimony and then divorce him. He's up in the middle of the night tweeting about a beauty queen and calling her fat. Seems like he has kind of a sad life."

I'm going to try this out on my dad who is a white middle aged reluctant Trump leaner and see if I can plant a couple seeds if doubt.
posted by betsybetsy at 5:01 AM on October 1, 2016 [29 favorites]


Nigel Farage to coach Donald Trump before next presidential debate

In what? How to resign in disgrace?
posted by Sys Rq at 5:01 AM on October 1, 2016 [28 favorites]


There's a good reason that perception was lost during the Vietnam War. It's hard to perceive murdering and torturing innocent men, women, and children as "an honor."

Yeah, that never happened before Vietnam.
posted by spitbull at 5:19 AM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


For those excited about the National Service Reserves, just a reminder that AmeriCorps already exists and was created by the previous Pres. Clinton. I am proud to have served in the Maryland Conservation Corps right after graduating from college. I have lots of friends who served in NCCC, City Year, and Habitat for Humanity programs. Although the NCCC and many state and local programs are targeted at people 18-25, AmeriCorps also includes VISTA (which existed for 20 years before AmeriCorps), which places volunteers of all ages in social service positions throughout the country, and Senior Corps. I'm super excited about the possibility for the NSR, too, but you don't have to wait for NSR to serve your country. And, no, none of this is compulsory. I did it because I wanted to, and it was an awesome, hard, life-changing experience.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:33 AM on October 1, 2016 [30 favorites]


As a middle child, you’re in very good company with notable U.S. Presidents and celebrities such as Abraham Lincoln, John F. Kennedy, Winston Churchill, Bill Gates, Donald Trump and Steve Forbes. Though often a late bloomer, you find yourself in power careers that allows you to use your negotiating skills... and get that all too-needed attention.

Dec. 2013 HuffPo.

Trump's the peacemaker in a narcissistic, alcoholic household where the only peace is staving off disaster until the leader comes to. Its a tough gig folks, believe me. A tough gig. It helps to be the world's greatest salesman, let me tell you. Tap-dancing bullshittery could come in helpful, bigly. Bigly. Marcia, Marcia, Marcia. Look tough, talk smooth, make a deal, live to grift another day.
posted by petebest at 5:35 AM on October 1, 2016


Psychological/personality issues have to be explored in the campaign.

The stress of the job will be enough to cause many to react with irritability, anxiety, insomnia or depression. Candidates need to show grace under that stress.

Personality traits or disorders are important not in a shaming way, but as predictors of behavior. People with personality disorders may behave in harmful ways in the right conditions. If Ms Clinton can expose serious craziness during a debate, you know foreign leaders will during their negotiations. A person who can analyse the dominance game and turn it against her opponent is simply going to be better at those interactions.

It's also important to think about the situations where Ms Clinton's personality has contributed to her own problems. She forthrightly apologized for her email server during the debate and defused the issue, allowing her to get her message out. There have been times in the past where she might have equivocated or spoken very technically in the same situation. Her preparation allowed her to choose the right response.

Ms Clinton is able to understand herself and preempt her instincts to be defensive under stress; Mr Trump is not able to stop his instincts to play racist, sexist dominance games.
posted by Emmy Noether at 5:35 AM on October 1, 2016 [15 favorites]


Also, I don't think the Clinton campaign is doing a better job of showing Clinton as warm and personable- I think she is warm and personable. But if you've just been hearing about her through media clips the past 30 years, you probably had no idea what her personality was like.

I definitely didn't. I was having Elizabeth Bennet at Pemberley moments all over the place during the DNC- "how could I have been so blind? She's smart and funny and caring! Why didn't I see it?"

And then watching Clinton on stage with Trump and contrasting them. She's just so competent. I know no one who's vehemently anti-Hillary is going to be swayed because no amount of exposure is going to break through all of the terrible attacks and lies that have been thrown at her for so long, but I would be happy if some people could at least watch her and see that she is a real person.
posted by betsybetsy at 5:43 AM on October 1, 2016 [54 favorites]


In one of his last interviews, Peres called Trump’s views ‘unbelievable, ignorant’
Two weeks before his fatal stroke, Israel’s elder statesman warned against the notion of an isolationist America
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:51 AM on October 1, 2016 [7 favorites]


I can feel sorry for Donald's paucity of soul--what a terrible way to live!--without excusing any of the suffering he has caused/will cause. He has enough money to get really good therapists. He should.
posted by emjaybee at 5:59 AM on October 1, 2016 [12 favorites]


Nigel Farage to coach Donald Trump before next presidential debate

If only Farage were American slang for flatulence, the circle would be complete
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:14 AM on October 1, 2016 [12 favorites]


I really want a high quality Texas state poll right now.

You won't get one that measures things accurately if Clinton's campaign is working; the pollsters know that one of the hardest things to do in politics is turn a non-voter into a voter. All the high quality state polls are, by this point, using likely voter models - and the best known question for establishing a likely voter in 2016 is "Did you vote in 2012". Unless they do a poll somehow very specifically targeted at "Are you pissed off enough to vote right now when you didn't four years ago" they are going to be unable to measure what's actually going on.

In 2012 48% of latinx voters turned out - as opposed to around 66% of both black and white voters. If it gets up to 66% Clinton wins Texas. Period. This is something there is very little polling methodology to even work out, however. (I'm banging this drum loudly right now because if Clinton wins Texas it will be right in the teeth of all the polls and there are going to be claims of a fix so everyone needs to know what has actually happened).
posted by Francis at 6:22 AM on October 1, 2016 [21 favorites]


And note that's 48% nationwide; in Texas the figure was lower.
posted by Justinian at 6:27 AM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


The radio interview that xyzzy linked to above with Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and author David Cay Johnston will scare the pants off ya.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 6:31 AM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


NYT: Who Gets to Vote?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:33 AM on October 1, 2016


betsybetsy:
Also, I don't think the Clinton campaign is doing a better job of showing Clinton as warm and personable- I think she is warm and personable. But if you've just been hearing about her through media clips the past 30 years, you probably had no idea what her personality was like.
I don't blame the Clinton campaign or the media for this. My first presidential vote was for Bill, so I've been hearing her give speeches and also seeing media clips ever since then. If I had to sum up how I felt about her it would probably be cold, calculating, career politician. I didn't really trust her and I was only going to begrudgingly vote for her.

Then, I read this article in Vox:
This is an effort to answer a question I’ve been struggling with since at least 2008: Why is the Hillary Clinton described to me by her staff, her colleagues, and even her foes so different from the one I see on the campaign trail?
There are some amazing anecdotes and stories in there. One of the many things that jumped out at me was how much everyone from both sides of the aisle enjoyed working with her in the Senate.

And, then she did the debate. Wowzer!

I don't know if I would have felt the same way without reading the article, but my impression of her has completely changed. I'm full on gung-ho for Hillary now. I totally see the warm and personable now. In hindsight, all of the the cold, calculating I perceived in the past, I now look at as, "Ugh. This is the boring BS of the job, but I have to do it, to get to the prize, which is helping as many people as I can."

In sum, the shimmy may have moved her from a moderate victory to a landslide.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 6:38 AM on October 1, 2016 [67 favorites]


"I wonder if Donald Trump got a good night's sleep last night?" is a thought I just had but wouldn't have ever expected to have.
posted by glhaynes at 6:42 AM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Someone should warn Farage that Trump doesn't pay his contractors.
Or... maybe not?
(Wow. This is a real complicated little puzzle... do you protect an asshole from an asshole? Or just let them have at it? Also, this isn't really happening, is it?)
posted by From Bklyn at 6:43 AM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump is breaking the right-wing media (NYTMag)

Along the way, Erickson became one of the new kingmakers of the Tea Party-era G.O.P. A little-known Florida legislator and Senate hopeful named Marco Rubio reached out to him in 2009 when he was at 3 percent in the polls. A former Texas solicitor general, Ted Cruz, did the same in 2011. Rick Perry announced his 2012 presidential candidacy at Erickson’s gathering. By 2015, a number of the coming cycle’s aspirants — Rubio, Cruz, Perry and Bobby Jindal — had given him their personal cellphone numbers, and he had traded emails with Jeb Bush. And two months before that August’s convention in Atlanta, a New York-based Republican consultant named Sam Nunberg reached out to Erickson to ask if he could accommodate one more speaker: Donald Trump. . . .

Erickson did not see much of a political future for Trump, but he imagined that he might be good for ticket sales, if nothing else, at the RedState Gathering. He informed Nunberg that Trump could have a slot on the convention’s second day.

The evening before he was to speak in Atlanta, Trump went on CNN and denounced the Fox News host Megyn Kelly for her sharp questioning of him during a recent debate, speculating that Kelly had “blood coming out of her wherever.” When Erickson saw the footage that evening, he called Trump’s campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, and rescinded Trump’s invitation on the grounds that he would be too much of a distraction. “And that was that,” Erickson would later recall with a sheepish grin. “Until the next day, when he’s blowing me up."


Live by the crass populism, something something
posted by petebest at 6:47 AM on October 1, 2016 [10 favorites]


To me the Farage thing seems of a piece with the rumors about TrumpTV and nothing else. Pretty much any other Republican candidate for President in recent history would be trying to right the ship at the moment by name-checking so-called moderates in an attempt to stem the hemorrhaging among traditional Republican voters. So, any rational campaign would now be saying "Trump brings in McCain, Ryan and Romney for debate prep" or "Bloomberg" or someone that would be reassuring to suburban white women who always vote Republican. Farage is unknown to those voters. But Farage is reassuring to the alt-right, who are already Trump's 27% base.
posted by Slothrop at 6:49 AM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


Farange is basically a fringe candidate and opportunist best known for something that was other people's work and turned out to be a disaster. So really he's fitting in a number of ways, just none of them to do with winning people over in a US-style town hall format Presidential debate.
posted by Artw at 7:04 AM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also still surprised this latest news wasn't just a weird dream I had.
posted by Artw at 7:05 AM on October 1, 2016 [7 favorites]


My hunch is that the Farange thing is an attempt to feed a new narrative to the media, which is caught in a very Trump-unfriendly loop of "Trump lost the debate and looked like a loser," "do you guys think he's a speed freak, a coke head, or just really, really stupid?" and "wow, I know two-year-olds who have more impulse control." So their new narrative, which they're hoping will distract from the current one, is that the Trump campaign is like Brexit: an underestimated populist movement that will ultimately show up the smug coastal elites. And I suppose it could work, because that's already a narrative that has some traction (and reflects some fears) among coastal elite types.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:12 AM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


In other news, Angela Davis says that she's voting for Clinton to stop Trump. The quote is, "I have serious problems with other candidate, but I am not so narcissistic to say I cannot bring myself to vote for her".
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:16 AM on October 1, 2016 [26 favorites]


Nigel Farage ‏@Nigel_Farage 7m7 minutes ago
Contrary to press reports, I am in the United Kingdom.

posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:23 AM on October 1, 2016 [8 favorites]


that the Trump campaign is like Brexit: an underestimated populist movement that will ultimately show up the smug coastal elites.

It might be tricky for HRC to say "well, look at the state the UK's in right now" because she'll have to work with the Tories if elected, but no reason why surrogates can't say it: incoherent negotiating positions, Scotland once again talking about independence, large employers making plans to abandon the UK. "If Farage is such a fan of Brexit, why did he line up to get his kids German passports?"
posted by holgate at 7:23 AM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


Thanks for linking to that Ezra Klein piece, a non mouse, a cow herd. It's extremely persuasive.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:29 AM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


Jared, your father-in-law listens to me more when I’m attacking him on television than when I’m trying to convince him to be rational for the sake of the party.’ I think he’s a creature of TV.”

"Morning" Joe Scarborough to Jared Kushner in the NYTMag piece.

Unless movies and TV have lied to me . . .
posted by petebest at 7:30 AM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


Honestly, I think she should just ignore the Brexit thing and keep baiting Trump to talk about the things that she wants him to talk about. The problem with the Trump campaign trying to manipulate the media narrative is that Trump doesn't have the self-discipline to avoid sabotaging the entire effort.

Good lord, the idea of that man being president is terrifying.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:31 AM on October 1, 2016 [7 favorites]


Nigel Farage ‏@Nigel_Farage 7m7 minutes ago Contrary to press reports, I am in the United Kingdom.

Oh good, maybe it was just a weird dream after all.
posted by Artw at 7:40 AM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Honestly, I think she should just ignore the Brexit thing and keep baiting Trump to talk about the things that she wants him to talk about.

Exactly. Very few Americans know exactly what Brexit is, and only half of the ones who do care. That's inside baseball stuff for reporters and political junkies and we're way past that point now.
posted by msalt at 7:50 AM on October 1, 2016 [5 favorites]


Farage was overheard telling friends at the party's conference in Bournemouth last week: 'I would say at worst Trump is a boor,' before adding with a grin, 'actually he's a boor at best too!'

He denied saying Trump was a boor 'at best' but said: 'There was a period after the [US] conventions when Trump came across a bit boorish. It all looked a bit sexist, a bit out of date.'
(Warning: DailyMail)
posted by petebest at 7:52 AM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


NYTimes Fat-Shamer in Chief
Trump also revealed his apparent obsession with the obese in dismissing Russian sabotage of the election. More likely, he said during the debate, “it could be someone sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds,” giving techies a great hashtag to play with on Twitter.

This fat-shaming episode by a man who wants to lead the country is deeply resonant because most Americans struggle with their weight. More than two-thirds of adults are overweight or obese. It’s a serious problem — life threatening, for many people — with multibillion dollar health care consequences.

Trump could express sympathy or offer some solutions. Instead, he stuffs his puffy face with junk food for the cameras, while making fun of anyone who isn’t a cover model. As for exercise, he burns most of his calories by giving speeches, he says. Seriously. Aerobic insults, the Trump diet.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:56 AM on October 1, 2016 [11 favorites]


I suspect we are about three weeks away from another round of mother of God, how can the polls be tightening again? Anecdatum why:

The debate stirred my mother to go to Facebook with "that one might smile, and smile, and still be a villain." This literate woman of 70, first in her family to get a college degree, near-worshipper of RFK and Obama, has hated the Clintons, and Hillary particularly, with passionate intensity since she first laid eyes on them.

She won't talk about it; she gets too worked up. A really deadly look comes over her face like she would kill Hillary with her bare hands if she could, or at least would spit in her face.*

She says she won't vote for Donald Trump; she's talked before about writing in "Daffy Duck" (ha ha).

She cannot vote for Hillary Clinton. I don't think she can make her body do it. She reads the Drudge Report daily, or anything else that assures her she's not crazy for hating Hillary so much. It's like comfort food for her, especially lately.

We only have as many undecideds as we do because it takes a rare courage to let your mind be blown up by someone, to where you truly change your views on that person. I admit it; I can't fathom what would change my mind on Donald Trump. Certainly one debate wouldn't do it. My mother will not change on Hillary; it would untie every stitch in her world view.

Any change of fortune towards Hillary is going to angry up people like my mother, just like any move towards Trump is going to angry up people like us. So I suspect the rest of the campaign is going to look more like atrial fibrillation than anything that makes sense.

*There is no why.
posted by argybarg at 8:06 AM on October 1, 2016 [14 favorites]


@PGourevitch: Trump says he spent “50% of my thought process” during debate on his microphone. How can he want us to believe that? http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/01/us/politics/donald-trump-interview-bill-hillary-clinton.html

@stuartpstevens: This is as close as a presidential candidate has ever come to admitting they can't walk and chew gum at the same time.
posted by chris24 at 8:11 AM on October 1, 2016 [51 favorites]


NY Mag: What It’s Like to Be a Female Reporter Covering Donald Trump -- Claire Landsbaum.

“I think you don’t realize the emotional cost of every single day, twice a day, being in rooms where the norm has become people shouting out, ‘Hang the bitch,’ ‘Kill her,’ ‘Cunt,’” the second reporter said. “You shouldn’t be at the point where you hear ‘Cunt’ and you think, Oh, they’re angry at Hillary, or you hear ‘Bitch,’ and you’re like, Oh, they’re talking about our former secretary of State.”

She went on, “I do wonder what it does to you as a woman, walking into rallies where people are wearing these shirts, saying these things, and speaking about women in these ways, and either having to hear it or getting to the point where you don’t hear it. Those words and those phrases should be jarring. That should never become normal, and if and when it does, some emotional cost has been extracted.”

posted by spitbull at 8:14 AM on October 1, 2016 [30 favorites]


Oh good, maybe it was just a weird dream after all.

You're in your underwear and back in highschool, taking a final exam. Nigel Farage is cheating off your paper.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:17 AM on October 1, 2016 [7 favorites]


Normally I don't watch Bill Maher's Real Time but I caught it last night. Angela Rye is my new hero. Note how Trump surrogate Steve Moore interrupts, mansplains and even tries the paternal touch of dominance shit. Watch and see a master class in letting an asshole self destruct. Fireworks start at about 4:30 in.
posted by humanfont at 8:17 AM on October 1, 2016 [31 favorites]


Good luck to any Maine MeFites with the instant runoff initiative! IRV would make a lot of arguments over strategic voting nicely irrelevant.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:20 AM on October 1, 2016 [8 favorites]


NYTimes The Other Trump
For much of the campaign, except for a brief speech at the Republican National Convention, Tiffany — Donald J. Trump’s daughter with his former wife Marla Maples — has been the B-list Trump, off to the side in family photos and missing from the campaign trail and that now-infamously spooky ad aimed at the millennial vote.

She was left out of the biographical documentary of Mr. Trump shown at that convention and was unmentioned in news articles that detail the advice his three older children are doling out as the race gets tighter.[...]

Mr. Trump’s team appears to be grooming Tiffany — gingerly — to pitch in on the campaign trail in the coming weeks, particularly with millennials. Her Instagram feed, which in the past was dotted with party shots of her and a group of close friends who have been called the “Snap Pack,” has been cleaned up, and her Twitter account largely restricted to campaign photos and a fund-raising pitch by Tiffany, and steering clear of any Skittles-like controversies.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:35 AM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


TIFFANY NOOOOOO
posted by Spathe Cadet at 8:37 AM on October 1, 2016 [22 favorites]


The Observer Group Apologizes for Giuliani’s ‘Unscripted’ Remarks at Awards Dinner
The apology for Giuliani’s speech was sent Monday, just a day before the Commercial Observer reported that Giuliani had been axed as the keynote speaker for a conference held by the International Council of Shopping Centers—following letters from real estate professionals who deemed him divisive for his outspoken support of Trump.

The remarks Giuliani made to the Commercial Finance Association Thursday have not been publicly reported. But an attendee told the Observer the crowd was “shocked” by Giuliani’s comments and that some people began complaining about his speech almost immediately after it was over.

“Rudy talked about immigration and made a really, really inappropriate comment about the quote-unquote Mexicans in the kitchen at the Waldorf,” the attendee said. “It was bad. You could hear a pin drop. I think he was looking for applause.”
I think what's happening is that being part of Trump's inner circle has made him forget that most Americans are not comfortable with outright racism.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:44 AM on October 1, 2016 [56 favorites]


@HillaryClinton: Nobody here was “having fun” except for Trump.

Killer new ad from Clinton on how he treats women.
posted by chris24 at 8:44 AM on October 1, 2016 [15 favorites]


> Good luck to any Maine MeFites with the instant runoff initiative! IRV would make a lot of arguments over strategic voting nicely irrelevant.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:20 AM on October 1 [1 favorite +] [!]


derail, I know, but IRV is not actually that good. There's a video on this page from a mathematician who nicely explains how the spoiler effect still shows up in IRV.

In empirical terms, note that countries with IRV (most notably, Australia) tend toward having two major parties or two major coalitions, just like countries that use FPTP.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:45 AM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


Marla Maples really is a master of the sly dig at her ex-husband. Such as:
“She’d like to get to know her father better and spend time with him like his other children did: by going to his office and watching him work,” Ms. Maples said in a recent phone interview. “Only now, he’s not in the office anymore. He’s on the campaign trail.”
....
“I had the blessing of raising her pretty much on my own,” Ms. Maples said.
.....
“On the rare times Ivana brought one or two of the children to his office, he couldn’t have been less interested,” Mr. Schwartz said.

That wasn’t entirely true with Tiffany, Ms. Maples said. When Tiffany was a baby at Mar-a-Lago, he would occasionally snatch her up and carry her as he talked to electricians and carpenters building a club health spa.

Tiffany was too young to remember. “I kept pictures for her to prove it,” her mother said.
Anyhoo, I hope for Tiffany's sake that she stays the hell out of the election and gets far away from her father's clutches.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:48 AM on October 1, 2016 [30 favorites]


Trump says he spent “50% of my thought process” during debate on his microphone.

He's a poker-faced strategist that won't give away his secret plans for defeating ISIS.

But he reveals that during critical negotiations he is completely overwhelmed by audio-visual equipment.

YAHHHHHRRRR (sunglasses)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:49 AM on October 1, 2016 [28 favorites]


@WSJopinion: Hillary alone stands between America and the most unstable, unfit president in US history http://on.wsj.com/2d1UbgE writes Dorothy Rabinowitz

Kind of amazing when the conservative grand dame of the WSJ Editorial Board comes out strongly for Clinton.
posted by chris24 at 8:52 AM on October 1, 2016 [12 favorites]


In empirical terms, note that countries with IRV (most notably, Australia) tend toward having two major parties or two major coalitions, just like countries that use FPTP.

In the lower house where single districts are elected. In the Senate where the states are elected at large the minor parties have always held the balance of power. Last election was double dissolution, all twelve seats in each state were up for grabs (8.3% of the vote for a seat instead of 16.6%) and we got cross benchers in 20/76 seats. IRV is absolutely instrumental in that but the other half of the equation is having the minimum electoral support for legislative representation being low enough for minor parties to compete.

Like New Hampshire has multi member districts but has them plurality at large instead of MMP so they get this abomination of a legislature that doesn't represent the electorate at all.
posted by Talez at 8:52 AM on October 1, 2016 [5 favorites]


(Tiffany did not consent to be interviewed for this article, although she did pose for its photo shoot. Instead, the campaign delivered a list of approved contacts. Other family friends who were not on the list said they were instructed not to speak without authorization.)

I mean, at least they admit to it, but this is basically an unpaid ad and very creepy and any notion that The NY Times was thinking of becoming a real newspaper again should be dropped.
posted by Artw at 8:52 AM on October 1, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump says he spent “50% of my thought process” during debate on his microphone.

Candidate Claims That His Loss To Opponent Was "A Shure Thing"
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:56 AM on October 1, 2016 [30 favorites]


The radio interview that xyzzy linked to above with Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and author David Cay Johnston will scare the pants off ya.

You mean this one?

I had to stop and pause a couple of times. Rewind, even. Made me shiver. Brought back memories of a Brit con artist I once knew. He too used to barrel through life by the seat of his pants. Not a day at a time, a moment at a time. It ended badly.
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:01 AM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


This piece is dropping all sorts of shade on Donald.

But a lot of that is subtext, and the stated conditions -- photos but no interview, approved contacts, non-approved contacts forbidden to speak -- should really have led the piece to be spiked. You can tolerate that for a fluff piece about an actor, but not in the context of a political campaign. Another one that the Public Editor ought to address but probably won't.
posted by holgate at 9:19 AM on October 1, 2016 [11 favorites]


I respect Hillary Clinton so much for being strong enough to weather all of this intense misogyny. Virago Ergo Sum, Madame President.
posted by effluvia at 9:22 AM on October 1, 2016 [8 favorites]




Ok press why wasn't the OOH MY GOD NOOOOO a little earlier
posted by angrycat at 9:33 AM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh the TV critic? Great, great and the restaurant guy, still knockin' out those front page dingers, eh? Ahh NYT, you reckless goblin ya.
posted by petebest at 9:35 AM on October 1, 2016


On-message shade being thrown by the Hillary twitter account: It's 3:20am, as good a time as any to talk about national service

I think this is very smart messaging: when Donald does something that makes him look like an ass, then follow up by imitating the form and context of his remarks, but differing starkly in substance. It really helps to underscore the differences between the two candidates. Trump tweets unhinged fat-shaming tirades at 3 am? When Clinton tweets at 3 am, she talks about a positive vision for America. Repeat this often enough, and it constructs a clear image of one candidate who stumbles through every situation in a semi-coherent rage, and another candidate who negotiates those same situations with grace and sound judgment. And it shows just how low of a bar Trump is failing to clear.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:37 AM on October 1, 2016 [38 favorites]


This seems plausible, especially given what Marla Maples was telling Olivia Nuzzi last week:
"The failing NYT" plays nice on Tiffany profile, accepts list of approved contacts, pic w/o intvw. Suddenly Healy gets the candidate's call.
The former TV reviewer and the frustrated theatre critic playing access journalism.
posted by holgate at 9:39 AM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ah, if you had Toledo or Akron for the cities Hillary Clinton is visiting on Monday, you win. I guessed Columbus. I'd love it if Lebron showed up for the Akron speech, unveiling of economic plan and voter registration event. That would be so great. The Cavs first preseason game is at home on Wednesday, so he's probably around, but I think he's going hands-off at the moment, though he has certainly stood up (along with Melo, CP3 and others) in recent months.
posted by cashman at 9:40 AM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


@PGourevitch: Trump says he spent “50% of my thought process” during debate on his microphone.

And still his voters are so calcified in their thinking, so eager to follow this NewFascist whingy windbag, they once again can't process the fact that anyone who admits to such poor focus* isn't qualified to do anything at the White House, not change the lightbulbs, not polish the silverware. (Not dissing those jobs - I'm utterly certain you have to be very on the ball when you're working there.)

*Also, if he's such an assertive leader, why didn't he bring up at the debate there was a technical issue. Oh, but then he couldn't use it as the world's most ridiculous conspiracy theory afterward.
posted by NorthernLite at 9:40 AM on October 1, 2016 [11 favorites]


Donald Trump personally negotiated with Playboy over how much Marla would be paid for a nude spread and was pressing her to do it. Just ew, ick, wtf.
posted by humanfont at 9:53 AM on October 1, 2016 [19 favorites]


Donald Trump personally negotiated with Playboy over how much Marla would be paid for a nude spread and was pressing her to do it. Just ew, ick, wtf.

He truly knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
posted by nubs at 9:55 AM on October 1, 2016 [21 favorites]


Hackers Target Election Systems in 20 States

The "attempted intrusions" targeted online systems like registration databases, and not the actual voting or tabulation machines that will be used on Election Day and are not tied to the Internet. . . .Meanwhile, intelligence officials tell NBC News there is now "no doubt" the Russian government is trying to influence the election.
posted by petebest at 9:56 AM on October 1, 2016 [28 favorites]


I'm actually not sure what I think about the Tiffany Trump profile. The thing is, it's not really a Tiffany Trump profile. I have no sense of who she is from that profile, and there's nothing at all that would make me interested in her. It's about what a bad father Trump is. And I don't honestly care that Trump is a bad father, but I actually think that not giving the press access to Tiffany made them do a more unflattering article than they would have if they'd actually been profiling Tiffany. It would seem petty and mean to publish a negative article about Tiffany, who seems completely unremarkable except that she has a rich, shitty father. But it's ok to turn a supposed profile of her into an expose of the fact that Trump is too much of a narcissist to pay more than occasional attention to his children.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:57 AM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Some lighter election fare from Friday night:

@HeerJeet presents the election in quotes from Coen brother's films

#Altrightstarwars
posted by nubs at 10:02 AM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


I thought it was more about greasing the wheels for a Tiffany campaign splash.

Not the "think we're alone now" one. Hmm.

. . .nnnope the song was 1987 and she was 1993. Although,

She was named by her parents after Tiffany & Company; her father's purchase of the air rights above the store in the 1980s allowed him to build Trump Tower on Fifth Avenue.

Well, hey, we all have our . . things.
posted by petebest at 10:06 AM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


RYAN: A tie means we stick with him.
CHRISTIE: Fuck that. We re-vote. We're better than this!
BANNON: (burp)
CARSON: what are night tweets

posted by petebest at 10:17 AM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


Maybe Trump Doesn't Have the Guts to Bring Up Bill's Sex Life to Hillary's Face
After the debate was over, Trump and his surrogates explicitly named the Bill Clinton sex scandals as the subject Trump was allegedly too considerate to raise. The surrogates praised Trump for his magnanimous restraint.

The obvious conclusion is that Trump wants it both ways -- he wants praise for not Going There in the first debate, and he wants to Go There with a vengeance now. But maybe he really wanted to Go There on Monday night, except that once he was actually in Hillary Clinton's presence, he couldn't bring himself to do it. And now he's overcompensating by showing us what a big tough guy he could have been if he'd wanted to be. [...]

If I'm wrong, and Trump is telegraphing what will actually be a major line of attack at the next debate, then I'm a bit confused. Trump's campaign has made it clear that letting the enemy know how you're going to attack is a terrible strategy. Trump said so in a garbled, incomprehensible way during the debate, in reference to ISIS [...]

Trump is now telling Hillary Clinton's campaign "exactly what we’re going to do" in the next debate, assuming he has the nerve to actually do it. What would General MacArthur think?
posted by tonycpsu at 10:19 AM on October 1, 2016 [8 favorites]


Honestly, if we're placing odds, what are the odds there will not be cyberattacks originating from Russia? Anything from denial-of-service attacks to outright vote manipulation?

And what is the chance there are states or counties that will be totally hapless to it, to the point of not even knowing it's going on?

And what is the chance there are election offices that will simply not ask too many questions about a potential attack that they believe will put a Republican in office?

In other words, how is this not potentially a nightmare?
posted by argybarg at 10:32 AM on October 1, 2016 [16 favorites]


Has Russia managed anything better than hacking the DNC?
posted by asteria at 10:49 AM on October 1, 2016


So I woke up to this nightmare, which doesn't seem to have been posted yet: Clinton gives her take on Sanders supporters in leaked fundraising recording
Hacked audio of a conversation between Hillary Clinton and donors during a February fundraising event shows the Democrat nominee describing Bernie Sanders supporters as "children of the Great Recession" who are "living in their parents’ basement."

Speaking at a Virginia fundraiser hosted by former U.S. ambassador Beatrice Welters, Clinton says in a clip released by the Free Beacon that many of her former primary opponent's supporters sought things like “free college, free health care,” saying that she preferred to occupy the space "from the center-left to the center-right" on the political spectrum.

During the conversation, also reported in the Intercept, Clinton confesses to feeling "bewildered" by those to her far-left and far-right in the election.

"There is a strain of, on the one hand, the kind of populist, nationalist, xenophobic, discriminatory kind of approach that we hear too much of from the Republican candidates," she said. "And on the other side, there’s just a deep desire to believe that we can have free college, free healthcare, that what we’ve done hasn’t gone far enough, and that we just need to, you know, go as far as, you know, Scandinavia, whatever that means, and half the people don’t know what that means, but it’s something that they deeply feel."
I'm not sure how much of a difference this really makes, but the "parents’ basement" bit could really sting, especially when taken on its own. The Intercept article puts the remarks in a bit more context.

[Let us please not take this as an invitation to relitigate the primaries.]
posted by zachlipton at 10:54 AM on October 1, 2016 [5 favorites]


Has Russia managed anything better than hacking the DNC?

How would we know? Who would tell us if they had?
posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:55 AM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


If you listen to her entire comments there, she's encouraging compassion and understanding towards millenials.
posted by stolyarova at 10:57 AM on October 1, 2016 [39 favorites]


From that Intercept article, this context IMO is key:
CLINTON: Some are new to politics completely. They’re children of the Great Recession. And they are living in their parents’ basement. They feel they got their education and the jobs that are available to them are not at all what they envisioned for themselves. And they don’t see much of a future. I met with a group of young black millennials today and you know one of the young women said, “You know, none of us feel that we have the job that we should have gotten out of college. And we don’t believe the job market is going to give us much of a chance.” So that is a mindset that is really affecting their politics. And so if you’re feeling like you’re consigned to, you know, being a barista, or you know, some other job that doesn’t pay a lot, and doesn’t have some other ladder of opportunity attached to it, then the idea that maybe, just maybe, you could be part of a political revolution is pretty appealing. So I think we should all be really understanding of that and should try to do the best we can not to be, you know, a wet blanket on idealism. We want people to be idealistic. We want them to set big goals. But to take what we can achieve now and try to present them as bigger goals.
posted by misskaz at 10:57 AM on October 1, 2016 [120 favorites]


The key quote from that NBC News piece:
"The concern is the ability to cause confusion and chaos."
Ironically, the inconsistent and messy and often shambolic distributed way in which the US manages elections is a defence against a full-scale attack, but it's still fragile.

Think as much in terms of the ability to seed rumours, fan flames, perhaps DDOS websites and hijack social media accounts of trusted news sources. Trump's already telling his white supporters to vote early and spend election day loitering around precincts with large minority communities: what happens if there are bullshit reports of Massive Voter Fraud in Philly or Charlotte or Miami that Breitbart and Trump jump on?
posted by holgate at 10:58 AM on October 1, 2016



Just thought of something through it's likely been speculated about before.
I was just reading about what happens to campaign money after an election. I wonder if Trump was thinking he could donate any leftover campaign money to his charity.
Which we now know is a slush fund.
That's how he was thinking he could make money or at least make some of his money back.
Which means now he's totally screwed because the charity is not legally registered as a charity and he can't donate to it even if he was okay with going through the potentially weird optics about donating to his own charity.
Like he's hooped any chance about getting anything beyond what he can pay his own companies during the campaign.
posted by Jalliah at 11:01 AM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah, unlike Romney's 47% comments, the basement quote really does improve if you read or hear it in context.
posted by bardophile at 11:02 AM on October 1, 2016 [5 favorites]


Well, while I love the idea that Clinton is so clean the worst that could be dug up is DWS being mean about Bernie and Clinton talking about millennials in a way you could misconstrue if you REALLY wanted to - I doubt it.

If Russia/Assange/Whoever were capable of something better, I think we would know by now.

Also, I love that the Intercept had to editorialize rather than provide a transcript. What a useless rag.
posted by asteria at 11:02 AM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


I feel like that's the sort of statement from Clinton that is damaging to her if you're predisposed to dislike her in the first place. It's also something the media will probably run with because of their Pavlovian responses to anything possibly negative about Clinton.

What this ultimately means is another round of talking the die-hard Bernie supporters and liberal/progressive Clinton-haters down off the edge. It's really not all that bad in context but damn is it gonna be work convincing people of that.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:03 AM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


I saw those "leaked recording" reports last night, and a lot of the headlines used for them are deliberately misleading (in particular, saying she is "mocking Sanders supporters"). Not only did they tend to leave out the full context Misskaz noted, they are priming readers to interpret the comments in the least charitable manner possible.

That's just bad faith journalism for the sake of clickbait.
posted by Superplin at 11:03 AM on October 1, 2016 [40 favorites]


Has Russia managed anything better than hacking the DNC?

Russian hackers successfully got into voter registration databases in Illinois and Arizona. They tried in 18 other states. What if they are able to start deleting names?

They've also targeted Democratic party officials' cell phones.


Seems like the kind of thing that maybe should be investigated, right? Congressional Republicans don't think so.
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:05 AM on October 1, 2016 [18 favorites]


I was wondering what the hell the #BasementDwellers hashtag was. I honestly don't think it's a big deal. Should she have said that people in their 30s have six roommates? Because that's pretty often the case, too.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:08 AM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


Has Russia managed anything better than hacking the DNC?

Getting otherwise intelligent people to post videos from fucking Lee Camp in my Facebook feed?
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:09 AM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Today some people twitter decided to give Trump's ego a smack-down. I've been following it all morning. This was posted 1 hour ago.

@TimHeidecker: holy cow #UnfollowTrump is now the number 1 trend on twitter and his count is down 6 million. My god. thank you ALLLLLL!!!!!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:09 AM on October 1, 2016 [47 favorites]


Bad faith anti-Clinton clickbait journalism from The Intercept and Politico? Who'd have thunk it?

I don't think it's particularly damaging in terms of the support she already has, but it does make the job of convincing young voters who are on the fence about voting (or going third party) that much harder, which really isn't something we need right now. In context, she's expressing sympathy and connecting the idealism of some voters to her pragmatic incrementalist approach, which is laudable, but #BasementDwellers is already trending on Twitter (it seems like it's mostly pro-Trump people, as Trump himself is trying to make this a thing now), and stripped out of the context, it sounds pretty darn patronizing.
posted by zachlipton at 11:10 AM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Just caught this in the National Post today.

Conrad Black: The first one-on-one between Clinton and Trump was an even, if disappointing, debate

Contains such amazing wonders as: "Trump, though given to tangents and grating egocentricities, was sensible and his views were not immoderate", "he said nothing extreme or embarrassing", "[the birther issue] had nothing to do with race, religion, or pigmentation. Trump’s entire voluminous record of public comments can be ransacked without finding a scintilla of evidence to support the charge of racism or sectarian prejudice.", "he has sometimes said rude things about some women, usually very obnoxious women, but never about the female sex", "graciously responding near the end of Monday night’s encounter that he had shown great forbearance in resisting the temptation to reply unkindly to her claims that he disrespected women", "has been relatively uncontroversial since [the primaries]".

The ending is the best: "From Archie Bunker to the Honeymooners (Jackie Gleason and Audrey Meadows and Art Carney), to Pleasantville, America wants change, and unless Trump really stumbles, he is still it."

Think about that. From a white 70s racist to an all-white 50s sitcom to a movie nostalgic over an all-white 50s suburbia - yeah, that's the gamut from A to A in America.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:10 AM on October 1, 2016 [14 favorites]


I was wondering what the hell the #BasementDwellers hashtag was. I honestly don't think it's a big deal. Should she have said that people in their 30s have six roommates? Because that's pretty often the case, too.

Basement dweller has always been code to me for "loser shut-in who spends all their time on the Internet", in a way that living with roommates is not.
posted by indubitable at 11:11 AM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


But she never used the word dweller or the phrase basement dweller.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:12 AM on October 1, 2016 [16 favorites]


I saw this on Twitter's trending stuff and reference to the "children of the Great Recession" like we were supposed to find THAT part an insult. Um, no? I'm 35 and I went to college a bit late and I have therefore been fighting to get my career back on the rails for basically a decade now. If I'm insulted by anything, it's people who act like the recession wasn't supposed to have a huge impact on our lives. I live with three housemates and I don't have a retirement account. My situation isn't precisely normal, but lots of my friends are in similar boats, especially people like 5-7 years younger than me, people who should really have grown-up jobs by now. Why exactly are we supposed to be insulted that someone remembered we exist?
posted by Sequence at 11:13 AM on October 1, 2016 [54 favorites]


@TimHeidecker: holy cow #UnfollowTrump is now the number 1 trend on twitter and his count is down 6 million. My god. thank you ALLLLLL!!!!!

Really? When I look at it, he's at 12 million, which is an increase from the 11.9 cited on a screenshot of his account I saw earlier with this hashtag.

Also, #basementdweller may be trending, but from what I'm seeing in clicking on that hashtag it's mostly Trump followers trying to be opportunistic about it and/or people posting the full context of the quote.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:13 AM on October 1, 2016


Politico already changed the headline at least once. It was originally:

"Clinton mocks Sanders supporters in leaked fundraising recording"

And they changed it to:

"Clinton gives her take on Sanders supporters in leaked fundraising recording"
posted by zachlipton at 11:14 AM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


No, she said, "living in their parents' basement", which is the same thing, obviously, unless you're determined to play semantic games.
posted by indubitable at 11:15 AM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


asteria: If Russia/Assange/Whoever were capable of something better, I think we would know by now.

A two phase plan to destabilize the election would be to leak one portion of DNC/Clinton Foundation emails to establish them as bonafide (already done) and then drop a second batch of mostly genuine but several fake emails carefully crafted to be a bombshell October surprise.
posted by bluecore at 11:16 AM on October 1, 2016 [8 favorites]


I mean, personally, I think it's unfair to use a word that she didn't use, and make it a hashtag.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:17 AM on October 1, 2016 [27 favorites]


If thats the best they got, I mean, c'mon.
posted by valkane at 11:21 AM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


No, she said, "living in their parents' basement"

So we agree she didn't call anyone a "basement dweller" while discussing how millennials had every right to be disappointed and dispirited by the current situation? Cool.
posted by asteria at 11:21 AM on October 1, 2016 [25 favorites]


@TimHeidecker: holy cow #UnfollowTrump is now the number 1 trend on twitter and his count is down 6 million. My god. thank you ALLLLLL!!!!!

Really? When I look at it, he's at 12 million, which is an increase from the 11.9 cited on a screenshot of his account I saw earlier with this hashtag.


The joke is that #UnfollowTrump might not actually be working, but people can pretend it is by tweeting about its success. This pretense will supposedly needle Trump and his supporters into frantically checking tweet numbers, doing math to PROVE it's false, tweeting said math and variations of "nuh-uh!," etc., thereby wasting time they could be spending more productively in campaigning, griefing Hillary and her supporters on Twitter, etc. You can see quite a bit of the frustrated/math behavior in the responses to Tim Heidecker's tweet.
posted by holyrood at 11:22 AM on October 1, 2016 [16 favorites]


WaPo If Trump thinks debate prep is for chumps, his advisers can’t save him from himself
Trump has done the opposite, rejecting post-debate polls and the assessment even of many Republicans that he lost the debate during the final 60 minutes. Instead, he’s grasped onto unscientific Internet surveys that portray him the winner. When Jason Miller, the campaign’s senior communications adviser, appeared Thursday on MSNBC’s “MTP Daily” and cited several online polls that are subjected to no statistical rigor, an exasperated Chuck Todd, the host, said the campaign was “creating a reality that does not exist.”

This is an alternate reality created by Trump for Trump. My Post colleagues Phil Rucker and Bob Costa and I got an insight into this personality trait when we interviewed him almost a year ago[...]At one point, he reached across his big desk, which was piled with magazines featuring him on the cover, and handed us several sheets of paper, with the results of several online polls, all of which declared him the winner of both debates. It was immediately clear to him that we found his evidence unpersuasive.

“Why don’t people trust online polls?” he asked. We told him that online polls are “not scientific.” For a quick second, he seemed to accept that criticism as valid. “Okay,” he said. But then he pivoted back to his own view of things. He wanted to believe, and so he would. “It must mean something, right?” he said of the online polls.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:22 AM on October 1, 2016 [17 favorites]


I saw it earlier, and Hugh Hewitt shoehorned it into a conversation about race, trying to get it play. Of course as soon as you listen to the audio it's clear she's being empathetic and saying that you'd be disaffected too if you didn't get the [insert american dream] and instead got the opposite - living in your parents basement and a job as a barista as the pinnacle of your possible opportunities.

It's not great phrasing but it's clear she wasn't talking shit about them, she was saying here's why people who face a bleak future would be excited to join a movement that promised to revolutionize things. Next. There's nothing there.
posted by cashman at 11:22 AM on October 1, 2016 [9 favorites]


While this is of course primarily an American election, many of us in other countries are equally dismayed and aghast both at Trump the candidate, and even more so, at the prospect of a Trump Presidency. Your electoral laws prevent us foreigners from financially contributing to any campaign, but I think we may have found a way..... A local craft brewer here in New Zealand has come up with a beer called 'Dump The Trump'. The tasting notes on the bottle say it best.
This beer will build a wall of hops around your taste buds and make Mexico pay for it. It is a big aggressive, hoppy, short fingered vulgarian of an IPA! While our 'Murica APA celebrates hop freedom, Dump the Trump pokes fun at the world's thinnest skin orangutan who has hair that looks like it's running away from his face.

All this means is, it is a piney, stonefruit, tropical IPA with loads of American hops and a few from New Zealand and Australia as well. Now, we too can join the fight against this Cheeto faced buffoon.
So when Hillary gets 270+n EVs, I will down quite a number of Dump the Trumps, all the while with Joni Mitchell singing in my head.."I could drink a case of you..."
posted by vac2003 at 11:22 AM on October 1, 2016 [9 favorites]


Basement dweller is pejorative. What Clinton is doing in that quote is using a metaphor to reinforce the idea that millennials have it rough economically. She is not using the phrase dismissively - she's using it to with empathy.

Turning that into the phrase "basement dweller" would be like pulling out the parts about the mindset and job opportunities and saying "Clinton says Millennials are all baristas wirh negative mindsets. "
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:23 AM on October 1, 2016 [35 favorites]


Anyone with an anime avatar is already voting gamergate/trump. This is the alt-right internet taking itself way too serious.
posted by valkane at 11:23 AM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


She should just spend some of her couch cushion money to run ads with the whole audio, including the context. Totally eliminates the power of the attack if she's the one standing behind the message.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:24 AM on October 1, 2016 [8 favorites]


Whoo! OKAY!

After two weeks of my laptop's being halfway around the world, I now know exactly how DJT feels when they give him his phone back.

I didn't get to watch the debate quite in real time since I woke up about an hour after it'd started. But that meant I watched it in a Metafilter/twitter/social-media-free environment and can independently confirm that I had the same hot take initial opinion as the general consensus: the candidates were evenly matched for the first bit, then Clinton got under Trump's skin and started going to town. The pivotal moment for me, the "she's got this" moment was the shimmy. Not so much because Donald had clearly dug himself a(nother) huge hole, but because she knew it and could start breathing again. When she's comfortable and confident, she's very, very good.

The only takeaway for me that I don't think I've seen mentioned too much is the importance (and significance) of the respective teams. Clinton has a bunch of dedicated, smart and clever folks working doggedly for her and it shows. She had the fact-checkers fact-checkin', the social media folks social-media'ing and the attack commercials all ready to go. Much like the overall electoral map, she had lots of options and she and her team scoped them all out and knew which paths to victory she could take based on Trump's moves.

Trump, on the other hand, had Trump. Cleverness in spades, but glibness can't get you through 90 minutes of substantive(ish) live debate. He didn't have any competent team to support him, either in prep, during the debate and immediate after-debate spin time or in the post-debate analysis period. It's clear that he has no one that can tell him 'no', which is great when he's right (and his political instincts certainly shouldn't be underestimated) but when he's wrong he's very, very wrong.

That's important. And it's significant in that it reveals their governing style.

This isn't news to people who have been paying attention, of course, but I hope that the Average Voter is noticing now that Clinton governs by building competent teams, playing out the possibilities, developing strategy and then implementing the appropriate strategy in real time in a chaotic environment.

Trump governs by fiat and bluster, and it's not working.

I refuse to get too cocky, though. Freedom and liberation are an unending task.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:25 AM on October 1, 2016 [27 favorites]


On a more fun subject, we've learned a bit more about Trump's microphone (which, sadly, does not belong in the shaving kit). Politico, sigh, reports:
According to a source with knowledge of conversations with the debate commissioners, part of the issue rested with Trump touching his microphone, something candidates had been told not to do because the microphones were "calibrated exactly" to the candidate's voices.
This guy on Twitter has a series of stills purporting to show that Trump moved the mic during the debate (though we, of course, never actually see him move it).

It seems like the theory is that Trump messed with his microphone a bunch, then bullied the CPD into releasing that ridiculous statement even though we all heard him on TV perfectly fine.
posted by zachlipton at 11:27 AM on October 1, 2016 [22 favorites]


And also 'living in your parents basement' is not a phrase that's automatically derogatory. It's context driven. Used in reference with the creepy, gamergator, computer type guy who lives in his parents basement then yes. Derogatory.

Use in context of describing ones economic situation as having no choice but to live in my parents basement. Not derogatory.

I don't live in the basement but I have been force by economics to move back in with my parents and I regularly describe my situation as living in my parents basement. Mostly I use this with people younger then me, eg millenials and everyone gets its meaning and understands.
posted by Jalliah at 11:28 AM on October 1, 2016 [25 favorites]


No, she said, "living in their parents' basement", which is the same thing, obviously, unless you're determined to play semantic games.

Did you not read her words in context? She makes it very clear she's using it in the sense that economic issues are why a lot of millennials are living with their parents. It's not as if it's a radical notion, there have probably been thousands of articles written since 2007 that deal with this trend.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:31 AM on October 1, 2016 [17 favorites]


No, she said, "living in their parents' basement", which is the same thing, obviously, unless you're determined to play semantic games.

Well, I'm going to play a semantic game then, I guess. Because while I see "basement dweller" as a derogatory pejorative term, I see "living in their parents' basement" as being able to be taken as perjorative or not, depending on the context around it. And I look at the context and I see somebody saying that there's a group of disaffected people out there who have put in the work and effort and they aren't getting the opportunities that they expected; that they don't want to be living in their parent's basement, but that is how things have worked out, and they aren't wrong to be disaffected - but that the key is to figure out how to reach them and engage them.

There's certainly a cynical element here, because there's the political angle of how do you get them involved and supporting you. But it's not a "we have to go appeal to the basement dwellers, gah"; it reads to me as a "how do we engage with and show these voters who are discouraged and upset for understandable, justified reasons that we have solutions for their concerns too?"
posted by nubs at 11:32 AM on October 1, 2016 [28 favorites]


Oh mu god how are we still talking about this nothing "scandal" and not the fact that it was almost certainly "leaked" by a foreign dictator who jails dissidents, kills journalists, invades his neighbors, and hold fake elections...

and is now trying to tamper with ours for his own nefarious ends?
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:37 AM on October 1, 2016 [33 favorites]


I truly do not understand any way to read that quote other than as expressing sympathy for the economic concerns of people who, by every conceivable measure, do have legitimate economic concerns. Many young people are living with their parents because they can't find a job that makes enough money to move out. That's a fact. I don't understand how it could in any way be considered insulting to young people to acknowledge that fact and recognize that it contributes to their alienation from mainstream politics.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:39 AM on October 1, 2016 [43 favorites]


The only way I can see finding that insulting is if someone is desperately looking for a way to justify hanging onto dislike of Hillary Clinton.
posted by palomar at 11:42 AM on October 1, 2016 [37 favorites]


desperately looking for a way to justify hanging onto dislike of Hillary Clinton

who would do such a thing and why?!?!?!?!??!
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:45 AM on October 1, 2016 [11 favorites]


It seems like the theory is that Trump messed with his microphone a bunch, then bullied the CPD into releasing that ridiculous statement even though we all heard him on TV perfectly fine.
posted by zachlipton at 2:27 PM

Very interesting. So in actuality if there was a mic problem it was not because the mic guy was in the bag for Hillary but because Donald is inept.

Just had a thought-- complete derail but my husband spent his teen years in his parent's basement before moving out at 19. He loved it because he had his own entrance and his own bathroom. My dad's parents lived in the basement of their own apartment building because that way they could make the most from their investment. It paid off. When Grandma died she left over a $million even though Grandpa and she were the children of penniless immigrants.

No big thought process here, just "basement" conjures up no particular bad feelings for me personally. On the other hand, my daughter still lives with her dad because she can't afford at 23 to move out. That does make me feel bad. That makes me feel like weeping. If Trump is elected her life can only get worse. If Clinton is elected maybe she will have a better economic future.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:46 AM on October 1, 2016 [12 favorites]


The only way I can see finding that insulting is if someone is desperately looking for a way to justify hanging onto dislike of Hillary Clinton.

You've been to Facebook, right?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:46 AM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


The only way I can see finding that insulting is if someone is desperately looking for a way to justify hanging onto dislike of Hillary Clinton.

Unfortunately, that's a depressingly yuge percentage of voters under 35.
posted by zachlipton at 11:47 AM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


Well, my very smart, nationally renowned constitutional law professor, hardcore Bernie-supporting*, extremely grudging Clinton-voting friend posted that it "confirmed [his] worst suspicions of her," so there's that.

*He is married to a friend who is ALL IN for Hillary and has been since day one, and who has also recruited their daughter to the team. They don't comment much on each other's Facebook posts.
posted by Superplin at 11:47 AM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug. Anyone who falls for this basement thing probably wasn't going to vote for Hillary anyway.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:49 AM on October 1, 2016 [7 favorites]


Politico changed their headline to "Clinton gives her take on Sanders supporters in leaked fundraising recording" and appended a correction: "Editor’s note: The headline and lede of this story have been changed to better reflect Clinton’s tone." I doubt it will do a lot of good, but there you go.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:51 AM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wasn't it Twain that said that the clickbait-y Politico headline goes halfway around the world before the mealy-mouthed correction puts its boots on?
posted by tonycpsu at 11:52 AM on October 1, 2016 [28 favorites]


Bookmark and wondering how to tie the anchor that is Donald to his GOP Congressional allies and endorsers so tightly that not even Virginia's gerrymander can hold back the wave
posted by infinitewindow at 11:56 AM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


With all the "alleged" Russian cyberwarfare activity around the elections what kind of relationship is Putin expecting to have with Clinton? Is he expecting to be able to walk all over her wrt Ukraine and Syria?
posted by PenDevil at 12:10 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Looks like there's a chance of Palm Beach / West Palm Beach, Florida, getting hit by Hurricane Matthew next week, about 3 days before the second Presidential debate. Ordinarily, the amount of uncertainty about the track and intensity would just warrant a shrug, but this is where a bunch of Trump properties (including Mar-a-Lago) are, and it's exactly the sort of thing the 2016 writers would do.

(The only part that confuses me is that they wouldn't normally foreshadow it this far ahead.)
posted by Spathe Cadet at 12:34 PM on October 1, 2016 [15 favorites]


Second presidential debate (October 9, 2016, Washington University in St. Louis, St. Louis, MO)
The second presidential debate will take the form of a town meeting, in which half of the questions will be posed directly by citizen participants and the other half will be posed by the moderator based on topics of broad public interest as reflected in social media and other sources. The candidates will have two minutes to respond and there will be an additional minute for the moderator to facilitate further discussion. The town meeting participants will be uncommitted voters selected by the Gallup Organization.
Anybody know how Gallup is choosing the participants? Washington University is giving out tickets to students, so they'll presumably be the non-participant audience. Looks like from previous debates that it's local (St. Louis) residents, but I'd love to see the details.
posted by cashman at 12:38 PM on October 1, 2016


Has Russia managed anything better than hacking the DNC?

Yes, allegedly the voter registration databases of twenty states. Add, delete, drop tables, whatever. Could be effective for weighting towards a candidate or causing chaos for specific or generalized groups of voters. All white men over 50? DELETED. Or something.

But it says they weren't Internet-connected so I'm wondering if someone can explain how they're set up - are state voter registries running on NT boxes over DSL or something?

Access ohiovote BBS
login: admin
pw:
Delete Votes? (y/n): _
posted by petebest at 12:43 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Comms director for Sanders thinks the basement story is bullshit.

@cascamike: ugh. this is incredibly misleading,
@politico. she's clearly saying she gets why bernie's supporters are frustrated: http://politi.co/2dedXI5
posted by chris24 at 12:49 PM on October 1, 2016 [34 favorites]


Oh mu god how are we still talking about this nothing "scandal" and not the fact that it was almost certainly "leaked" by a foreign dictator...?

Right?!? Also, hello? Vladimir? You kettleblackcalling toplessequestrien beadyeyed POS, you didn't RTFA before you leaked it, did you? Don't most of your citizens who are not you or a rich mobster live in their parents' basement with their kids and their kids' kids and all their extended family? Famously? Like, forever? Ever since you guys effed up communism for all of us for seemingly all time? Oh, no, wait, to be fair, I heard if they're in the front line of the ballet they get to live in a dorm and maybe they get some orange peels every other month to munch on so the scurvy doesn't show as bad. So, but "basement-dwelling." Maybe not the bestest choice of content to leak.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:52 PM on October 1, 2016 [7 favorites]


This is not to say that anyone should have sympathy for ...

You can have sympathy for someone without wanting that person to be the elected leader of your country
posted by amtho at 12:54 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


Washington University is giving out tickets to students, so they'll presumably be the non-participant audience. Looks like from previous debates that it's local (St. Louis) residents, but I'd love to see the details.

In fact it will take place just shy of 2-1/2 miles from chez Charlemagne. I've seriously considered strolling up there and taking some pictures of the pre and post crowds plus any supporters or protesters and linking them here for you folks edification.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:56 PM on October 1, 2016 [11 favorites]


Meanwhile, intelligence officials tell NBC News there is now "no doubt" the Russian government is trying to influence the election.

Well, of course they are. Why would they not? They absolutely have a national interest in the outcome. Until state-sponsored hacking is (rightly, IMO) considered an act of war just as messing with electrical infrastructure, blowing up train bridges, etc. would be, might as well do what you can. The US Military appears ready to engage on that battlefield, but the world's political understanding of the problem doesn't seem to be there yet.

The surprise isn't that they're doing it, it's that we're woefully susceptible to that, and don't seem to care.
posted by ctmf at 12:58 PM on October 1, 2016 [14 favorites]


Can we talk about the fact that all Georgians will again be voting (as we have since the 2002 election) on now very outdated Diebold machines with no paper backup? Of all the ways to steal the election, that seems like the easiest one. And yet our Secretary of State, who is embarrassingly bad at his job, has refused federal help in securing our voting system, whether because of embarrassment at what a mess it is or because it would expose what his party is up to.
posted by hydropsyche at 1:09 PM on October 1, 2016 [30 favorites]


(The only part that confuses me is that [the 2016 writers] wouldn't normally foreshadow it this far ahead.)

It's because they're doing script rewrites on-set.
posted by Brie Fantasy at 1:13 PM on October 1, 2016 [10 favorites]


FWIW, I follow some die hard Clinton haters (they are also Never Trumpers) and are saying things along the lines of "there is a lot of stuff to use against Hillary, this is not it".
posted by like_neon at 1:16 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Canvassing report!

Me and my son went a-canvassing this afternoon in our own neighborhood and it was great. Lots of support, a couple people interested in volunteering. Lots of people thanking me and happy to see me. It, uh, helps that it's a majority black neighborhood. Those polling demographics do not lie.

I'm off back to the campaign office to drop my packet off. Keep the faith, citizens off Metafilter!
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:19 PM on October 1, 2016 [42 favorites]


> And yet our Secretary of State, who is embarrassingly bad at his job, has refused federal help in securing our voting system, whether because of embarrassment at what a mess it is or because it would expose what his party is up to.

I'm gonna go waaaay out on a limb and guess door #2.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:20 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


I really have to hope that Trump's efforts to play up a Sanders-Clinton disconnect will backfire, especially when Sanders himself has been perfectly clear what he would like his supporters to do. The more Trump is seen pushing this narrative, the fewer people will take it seriously, and he's laughably bad at subtlety here.
posted by zachlipton at 1:22 PM on October 1, 2016


He is *still* talking about the fucking mic:

@realDonaldTrump: I won the debate if you decide without watching the totally one-sided "spin" that followed. This despite the really bad microphone.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:23 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


Josh Marshall writes about Donald's cycle of rage and abuse.
At its essence all of this talk is no more than warnings and threats that he will abuse Clinton in public, shame her and try to humiliate her. Like any abuser he is threatening to hit her and make her cower. "Don't make me hurt you!" There's no issue or debate.
There's a direct line from this to a "Trump That Bitch" bumper sticker. For some people, this is a winning argument.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 1:25 PM on October 1, 2016 [25 favorites]


(The only part that confuses me is that [the 2016 writers] wouldn't normally foreshadow it this far ahead.)

Nah. The Trump campaign and everything that surrounds it was foreshadowed back in 1997 [nsfw].
posted by Groundhog Week at 1:26 PM on October 1, 2016


I signed up to canvass for Hillary tomorrow in New Hampshire.

HOLD ME I'M SCARED.
posted by pxe2000 at 1:26 PM on October 1, 2016 [45 favorites]


The Chicago Tribune just endorsed Gary Johnson. This does not appear to be a hoax or a joke, and it is not April 1st.

You have a choice between life and death. What do you pick?

Chicago Tribune: I punch myself in the face!
posted by srboisvert at 1:28 PM on October 1, 2016 [46 favorites]


I won the debate if you decide without watching the totally one-sided "spin"

"I'm playing all the right notes.... but not necessarily in the right order."
posted by holgate at 1:39 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump-loving Pennsylvania mayor under fire for posting racist meme depicting Obama lynching.

This is what we've normalized as a society. An elected official feels safe to post racist meme after racist meme.
posted by Talez at 1:44 PM on October 1, 2016 [50 favorites]


It would really help if Bernie would say to his millennial revolutionaries, "She hears you, she gets you, and that's why you should vote for her".

So far he hasn't gotten there yet. He's still never-Trump. But that is what they need to hear.
posted by Dashy at 1:44 PM on October 1, 2016 [5 favorites]


From a joint rally three days ago:
"I am asking you here today not only to vote for Secretary Clinton but to work hard to get your uncles and your aunts, to get your friends to vote," Sanders said. "It is imperative that we elect Hillary Clinton as our next president."
posted by zombieflanders at 1:51 PM on October 1, 2016 [33 favorites]


Trump-loving Pennsylvania mayor under fire for posting racist meme depicting Obama lynching.
I saw this yesterday and went to his Facebook page. He also has a photo of several orangutans in a wheelbarrow titled "Moving day at the White House" or something like that. I had a visceral reaction to it--I literally broke out into a sweat and my heart started pounding. I mean, it's not like I haven't seen the worst of humanity on the web since the 90's, but it was usually confined to dark, self-selected corners. The idea that an elected official thinks, thanks to Trump, that this is now a completely ok way to behave in public is vile and deeply distressing.
posted by xyzzy at 1:51 PM on October 1, 2016 [58 favorites]


Bernie is going to be in Iowa campaigning for Hillary on Monday. I can't go, but I'll try to get a report about what he says. My sense is that he has been saying much more positive things about her recently.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:51 PM on October 1, 2016


I'm not sure what you want Sanders to say that he hasn't been saying since July.
posted by zachlipton at 1:54 PM on October 1, 2016 [14 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: The so-called Commission on Presidential Debates admitted to us that the DJT audio & sound level was very bad. So why didn't they fix it?

And more whining.
posted by chris24 at 1:58 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


The mayor of West York, PA (and those calling for him to merely be censured) might want to give this a bit of a look-see.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:00 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is there any report on what exactly was the appalling thing that Giuliani apparently said on Monday? That's such a weird story. The fact that it was broken by The Observer makes me wonder if Giuliani and Trump have had some sort of falling out.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:05 PM on October 1, 2016


The fact that it was broken by The Observer makes me wonder if Giuliani and Trump have had some sort of falling out.

TRUMP: Rudy stop putting dumb words in my mouth!
GIULIANI: But you said them!
TRUMP: No! My words are the best! I have the best words!
GIULIANI: Fuck this popsicle stand! You're not going to win anyway!
[fake]
posted by Talez at 2:11 PM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]




99999 times out of 100000, yes. But in truth, a lot of those times are in settings where the person under evaluation has already done bad (often criminal) things to others, and the goal is to manage things thereafter as best as possible. In this particular instance, I think the squick is an acceptable price in exchange for keeping Trump away from the nuclear football.

Well I'm saying that this conceptually is incoherent. If Trump is a "bad man", psychiatry and psychology are value-neutral relative to that. There simply are no valid tools for exposing the "badness" of a person (let alone the ethics of publicly diagnosing narcissism in this case); it's simply unscientific and anachronistic. In the same vein, you cited the Freudian concept of psychic injury, but the article makes it clear it is a theoretical concept from specific schools of early psychology, whereas there's nothing in the entry about how it is to be used in modern psychological interventions. And if you look at say, Lacan which the entry mentions in relation to psychotherapy, I doubt he would have remotely approved of these ideas being used in this way because that would go against ethics and standards of care, and everything he was concerned about, really.

I've met plenty of clinicians who aren't well-versed in theory nor the philosophy of the science they're trained to apply. It's a problematic dynamic within the profession, too.
posted by polymodus at 2:15 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump-loving Pennsylvania mayor under fire for posting racist meme depicting Obama lynching.

A Kentucky pastor running for state house (the last state house in the south that is still majority Democrat and one that the Republican party desperately wants to take control of) is getting attention for something similar this week. Racist, vile memes on facebook, and he is doubling down defending himself. Fortunately the Republican Party of Kentucky is condemning the posts and Johnson's remarks.

I would love to think that these comments would make this man unelectable, but Bullitt County isn't known for progressive politics.
posted by chaoticgood at 2:15 PM on October 1, 2016


@realDonaldTrump: The so-called Commission on Presidential Debates admitted to us that the DJT audio & sound level was very bad. So why didn't they fix it?

Which part is so-called? That it's a commission, that it's presidential, or that it's about debates? The mind reels.
posted by dis_integration at 2:19 PM on October 1, 2016 [17 favorites]


Josh Marshall had some thoughts on the Giuliani thing. No real idea why the heck it's coming from The Observer, but I like the theory: Giuliani has perhaps been one of the biggest symbols of systemic racism (broken windows, stop and frisk, stoking fear against people of color to get elected, etc...), but he was previously able to hold it together and kept himself at the systemic level, rather than the "my racist cousin" level (with some exceptions of course). Now Giuliani's been Trumping it up for so long that he forgot you're not supposed to talk like you aren't a racist, even if you promote racial division and racist policies:
He's been swept into the same Trumpian frenzy. Rudy was always a divider. But there are different varieties of racism and grievance politics. Rudy's from the 1980s and 90s is akin to the revolt against busing in Boston chronicled by J. Anthony Lucas in Common Ground. It may be neither better nor worse. But it's different from Trumpism. To put it bluntly, he's been out there on the campaign trail talking to feral Trumpers, riffing on the racist jokes and taunts call and response. Then he brings it back into Manhattan with the Wall Street richies and like the anonymous attendee put it you could here a pin drop. Remember that one line: “It was bad. You could hear a pin drop. I think he was looking for applause.”
I have to think that if there was tape of the speech, it would have surfaced by now though.
posted by zachlipton at 2:21 PM on October 1, 2016 [5 favorites]


Several minutes ago:

‏@realDonaldTrump
I won the debate if you decide without watching the totally one-sided "spin" that followed. This despite the really bad microphone.


Jesus Christ. This guy can't fathom a world where he doesn't automatically win just by being a rich white guy that merely shows up.
posted by bluecore at 2:29 PM on October 1, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump-loving Pennsylvania mayor under fire for posting racist meme depicting Obama lynching.

Fred Christ Trump, what the ever-loving shit, West York Pennsylvania?! G-ddamn. That guy needs to gtfo pronto.
posted by petebest at 2:34 PM on October 1, 2016


You guys gotta watch The Choice. I knew a lot of Trump's background already but seeing it play out as a narrative from his childhood through now was both humanizing (as in, you can see how he got to be the way he is) and horrifying (as in, this is a guy who has been so incredibly insulated from consequences that he truly doesn't even understand that the concept might apply to him).
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:41 PM on October 1, 2016 [29 favorites]


3AM tweets about a former Miss Universe, it's the Dukakis in a tank moment.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 2:44 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


And in April, West York Council meeting has to be broken up by the cops after the Mayor and a councilman get shovey.

He sounds perfect for Trump. They're considering shutting off sewer service for delinquent accounts. It's metaphor rich.
posted by petebest at 2:47 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]




The Doe v. Trump and Epstein lawsuit was refiled on 9/30/2016 with a new witness. For those not in the know, this is the allegation that Trump and Epstein sexually assaulted an underage girl who thought she was getting a modeling contract. TW: The filing includes details of the alleged violent sexual assaults and threats of retaliatory physical harm.
posted by xyzzy at 2:55 PM on October 1, 2016 [12 favorites]


Hey everybody! I talked to my libertarian husband and he actually loves the National Service Reserve idea (but he hopes it will be, in many cases, like an apprenticeship program, where young people can get paid/at least get a stipend for their work).

So yeah, punching at shadows. Thanks for keeping me steady, friends. <3
posted by stolyarova at 3:01 PM on October 1, 2016 [41 favorites]


From a joint rally three days ago:

Sanders couldn't yell his support for Hillary loud enough for certain people who just don't seem to want to acknowledge what he's been saying, or that he isn't saying the right words in the right order, or whatever. It's a frustrating piece of a larger pattern of how he's been treated. Tough to say that anything can be done about it for now, but history tends to vindicate people on the right side of things in the long term, and I'll bet that will be true for his well-earned vindication.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:05 PM on October 1, 2016 [14 favorites]


3AM tweets about a former Miss Universe, it's the Dukakis in a tank moment.

I'm seriously wondering if we're even going to have these anymore. It seems as if, in the new firehose national media paradigm, a single gaffe is not enough anymore - the candidate has to have repeated and similar problems of the same kind, either self-inflicted like Trump's temper or half-invented like Hillary's health. That's just as well with me. Dukakis didn't deserve to be associated with a tank, and Dean didn't deserve to be associated with a yell.
posted by Countess Elena at 3:08 PM on October 1, 2016 [7 favorites]


ITA that neither Dukakis nor Dean deserved it. I was just wondering out loud if, since sheer horror wasn't enough to dissuade voters, that near universal ridicule on twitter and late night talk shows might do the trick.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 3:14 PM on October 1, 2016


Well, if it's based on things like the Armed Forces Reserve and Americorps then yes, there would be compensation. Americorps pays a stipend, provides room and board, and gives loan forgiveness to students. I'm less familiar with the Armed Forces Reserve, but I know it's a paying gig. It's voluntary in any case, but it would make sense to provide finanicial incentives if they wanted people to actually sign up for it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:16 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


TBH I always thought DeanScream a little sexy
posted by angrycat at 3:17 PM on October 1, 2016 [12 favorites]


Other people were talking about this National Service Reserve thing as being similar to Americorps or Peace Corps, but there's a huge huge difference: I wouldn't have to quit my job in order to participate in this program. That's why I never even considered something like Americorps: it pays a poverty wage and you can't do anything else to make money at the same time.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:19 PM on October 1, 2016 [34 favorites]


Happy to be corrected on Sanders's tone recently.

And in other news, find your Kleenex and read a letter to Lillary
posted by Dashy at 3:28 PM on October 1, 2016 [30 favorites]


So I'm only spot-checking the internet now and again while bingewatching Luke Cage, but so far I'm seeing the reaction to the Clinton audio break in her favor rather than going against her. I hope that continues, 'cause at this point it's almost comedic.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:33 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, the audio thing isn't a huge problem as of right now. Hope that holds. In any case, the VP debate is in a couple days so it will take over the narrative.
posted by Justinian at 3:40 PM on October 1, 2016


A Kentucky pastor running for state house (the last state house in the south that is still majority Democrat and one that the Republican party desperately wants to take control of) is getting attention for something similar this week. Racist, vile memes on facebook, and he is doubling down defending himself. Fortunately the Republican Party of Kentucky is condemning the posts and Johnson's remarks.

They've actually asked him to drop out of the race now.
posted by dilettante at 4:07 PM on October 1, 2016 [5 favorites]


but so far I'm seeing the reaction to the Clinton audio break in her favor rather than going against her. I hope that continues...

CNN is teasing now that Trump is going to step up to the empty podium and attack her for these remarks. I doubt he will recount them accurately. (sigh)
posted by puddledork at 4:23 PM on October 1, 2016




"Hillary talked about young people as 'basement dwellers' and completely left out the '400-pound' part. Sad"
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:28 PM on October 1, 2016 [10 favorites]


‘Finally. Someone who thinks like me.’

This is one of the saddest and most touching pieces on the election I've read, and it's worth your time. Equal parts compassionate, heartbreaking, and terrifying. I wish HRC could sit down with this lady and talk to her about getting the care she clearly needs.

The entire article makes it obvious how both our media and our justice system are failing people. We don't need more warrior cops - we need community carers. And we definitely need to tamp down the culture of clickbait media (without squashing the First Amendment, somehow).
posted by stolyarova at 4:37 PM on October 1, 2016 [38 favorites]


And in other news, find your Kleenex and read a letter to Lillary

Also, if you check the photo in the article, Lilly's mutant gene has kicked in and she will be a valuable ally should The Blob (check out the picture) ever regain his powers.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:41 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Donald Trump thinks like you, lady? How much have you scammed off other people? Or are you one of the gullible fools he's scamming? Because if so, I want some of your money.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:44 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Read the article before you snark, please. It's devastating.
posted by stolyarova at 4:46 PM on October 1, 2016 [12 favorites]


That poor woman has had a shitty life and nobody has done anything for her, except get her committed when she was clearly having a psychotic break.
posted by suelac at 4:48 PM on October 1, 2016 [10 favorites]


Politico already changed the headline at least once. It was originally:

"Clinton mocks Sanders supporters in leaked fundraising recording"

And they changed it to:

"Clinton gives her take on Sanders supporters in leaked fundraising recording"


From a technical point of view, not only can changes like this be pre-planned, but similar to A/B testing it would be possible to have different headlines show up to different visitors, the sort of thing where Facebook was experimenting with whether they could influence their users' emotional state. I know there are projects to try to watch news sites and catch when they make changes, but does anyone know whether this sort of thing is being watched—if different visitors get different headlines, or different text?

(I'm not particularly referring to this article, just in general. The sites themselves might do it, or hackers might rig up something that would accomplish it.)
posted by XMLicious at 4:51 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


showbiz_liz has a killer point there: the National Service Reserve, as proposed, would be modeled after the Armed Forces Reserve more than Peace Corps or Americorps. It's meant to be a long-term, part-time thing that people can participate in while also maintaining a normal life. That is such a key difference. I loved Americorps, but I basically put my life on hold for a year while I did it. That worked for me at the time, but it would never work for me now. This, on the other hand, is something I would be all over—assuming that the rest of the deal was fair, naturally.

I would be downright ecstatic to be given the opportunity to trade one or two weekends a month (or the equivalent) in exchange for a little extra money (or some loan forgiveness) while also getting a chance to see the country, meet civic-minded fellow ciizens, and do some good for society. I would for real do this, no question. I'm able-bodied, don't have kids, and genuinely want to be doing more to make the world a better place and help my fellow humans. I like to travel, I've done disaster relief work, and I have the time to spare—but I don't want to make it a full-time gig. There have got to be lots more people like me out there. I am seriously excited about this idea and I hope Hillary can pull it off.

I have long had this sense that I'm basically going to waste, that I'm sort of under-utilized because I don't want to fit into any of the roles that society has to offer me. This program has my name written all over it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:53 PM on October 1, 2016 [79 favorites]


I'm actually a little uncomfortable with that article, and I'm not sure whether my discomfort is warranted or not. On the one hand, she's an adult, and she gets to make her own decisions about publicity and disclosure. On the other hand, it felt a little bit like exploiting someone who clearly has a mental illness, and I'm not sure whether it's correct to depict her as a representative Trump supporter.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:58 PM on October 1, 2016 [18 favorites]


I would be downright ecstatic to be given the opportunity to trade one or two weekends a month (or the equivalent) in exchange for a little extra money (or some loan forgiveness) while also getting a chance to see the country, meet civic-minded fellow ciizens, and do some good for society. I would for real do this, no question. I'm able-bodied, don't have kids, and genuinely want to be doing more to make the world a better place and help my fellow humans. I like to travel, I've done disaster relief work, and I have the time to spare—but I don't want to make it a full-time gig. There have got to be lots more people like me out there. I am seriously excited about this idea and I hope Hillary can pull it off.

I'm turning 39 in a week, I have no kids, I'm able to do physical and intellectual work, and in a little over two months I'll have my associates degree and a boatload of student loan debt. I'd be thrilled at the chance to offset my loan costs by doing national service work a couple of weekends each month, maybe a week or two-week chunks a couple of times a year as well. Kinda like the Army Reserve scheduling, one weekend a month and two weeks a year, but I'd be willing to give up more time than that as I have more time to give.

Seriously, thrilled. Like, just the thought of that maybe being a possibility (and maybe getting to finish up my bachelors degree with that sort of option in place) is making me really excited about what the future could be like.
posted by palomar at 5:05 PM on October 1, 2016 [28 favorites]


I'm actually a little uncomfortable with that article, and I'm not sure whether my discomfort is warranted or not. On the one hand, she's an adult, and she gets to make her own decisions about publicity and disclosure. On the other hand, it felt a little bit like exploiting someone who clearly has a mental illness, and I'm not sure whether it's correct to depict her as a representative Trump supporter.

It's the uncanny valley of Donald Trump. See, my belief is that Trump has always been suffering from hereditary dementia and the GOP has been exploiting him to take the fall, so no-one has to end their actual political career on losing to Hillary Clinton. So, indeed not just representative of Trump supporters, but representative of Trump.

In other words: "It's emotional issues all the way down"

Now, I'm sure there are rational, sincere Trump supporters out there. But at this point it's a cult, and those traditionally vulnerable to cults will be taken in by this.
posted by mikelieman at 5:09 PM on October 1, 2016 [10 favorites]


That article is really tough. Honestly, I think it would be useful to have some language around the space between being mentally ill and being a jerk. There's a whole world of hatred and ignorance and hurt in there that may not be clinical, but certainly isn't healthy, and may come from ignorance but isn't really excusable.
posted by snofoam at 5:17 PM on October 1, 2016 [17 favorites]


Donald is now 75 minutes late for his only public appearance today, a rally in PA. Much grumbling, apparently. Very hot - people fainting.
posted by Devonian at 5:19 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


It read to me as an indictment of both the conservative conspiracy mill industry and the Trump campaign (which is part and parcel of said industry - given that Trump is Birther-in-Chief and has Steve Bannon and Roger Ailes directing his campaign, there's a vicious cycle here).

That woman doesn't belong in prison - she belongs in a long-term mental care facility, and I hope deeply that someone reaches out to her and helps her get that care. While (like in any cult, as mikelieman pointed out) the victim is complicit in their victimization, it's still heartbreakingly tragic to see it happen to anyone.
posted by stolyarova at 5:24 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's entirely possible to be mentally ill and a jerk. As someone with definite mental health issues, it's important for me to remember that while mental illness may at times help explain my behavior, it doesn't excuse it. I'm still an adult who is responsible for his own actions. One can't have agency without responsibility.

Besides, "jerk" is not a medical term.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:29 PM on October 1, 2016 [35 favorites]


“I have reason to believe that a journalist sought out a mentally ill Trump supporter just so they could imply that most Trump supporters are mentally ill.”

“…and this offends you as a Trump supporter?”

“No, it offends me as a mentally ill person.”

(with apologies to Seinfeld)
posted by savetheclocktower at 5:32 PM on October 1, 2016 [16 favorites]


There's a whole world of hatred and ignorance and hurt in there that may not be clinical, but certainly isn't healthy, and may come from ignorance but isn't really excusable.
I don't know. I think there's every indication that some of her issues are not subclinical: she is on disability, has some diagnoses (she mentions PTSD and anxiety), and was recently involuntarily committed to a psych ward. She is also a jerk and a racist and terrible in all sorts of ways. But I don't think that Trump supporters have mental illnesses than anyone else is, and I don't know if I'm on board with depicting Trump support as symptomatic of the kind of mental health issues that she's dealing with. I also am not sure how I feel about publicizing her particular mental health struggles as some sort of attempt to explain the Trump phenomenon.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:33 PM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


Anecdotally, yes, but I've known several people who have needed and gotten treatment for mental health issues, and I've known a LOT of jerks, and the venn diagram of the two has NO overlap.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:34 PM on October 1, 2016


The thing is, when my darling great aunt had a severe manic episode, she said some things that were...not great, and that were totally out of line with everything she'd said when she was herself and with everything she'd done by choice in life. I am never totally comfortable with "mental illness doesn't make you a jerk" because, IME, sometimes it does. Sometimes people truly are not themselves when having a serious episode, and I think it would do my great aunt a huge disservice to say that her manic episode represented some "truth" of who she was or some proof that she was really a jerk and should be "accountable" for stuff she popped out with when she was threatening people and not eating.

I feel like mental illness is really complex, and different people have different struggles.
posted by Frowner at 5:41 PM on October 1, 2016 [42 favorites]


Well, Donnie just said, "With Mexico, we get the drugs, they get the cash..."
posted by mikelieman at 5:51 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


And if you ever needed any evidence that Donnie is unhinged, he just asserted that Bernie supporters are coming over to his side...

Man, he's going off on Hillary Clinton like... She hurt him. She hurt him BAD.
posted by mikelieman at 5:54 PM on October 1, 2016 [9 favorites]


Unfortunately, the other big takeaway I got from that article is that her behavior and beliefs have become normalized. A significant fraction of the American population, representing a large network of communities, now believe in conspiracy theories that have no basis in fact and that do not allow for compromise.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 5:55 PM on October 1, 2016 [21 favorites]


This guy can't fathom a world where he doesn't automatically win just by being a rich white guy that merely shows up.

He's seventy years old and it has worked thus far. Why wouldn't he expect it to keep working?
posted by winna at 5:59 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


Man, he's going off on Hillary Clinton like... She hurt him. She hurt him BAD.

One reason HRC is actually the perfect woman for the job this election is that she has three decades of experience with people saying hateful, personal, awful, unforgivable things to and about her. She's said many times that at this point it just rolls right off her. I just can't imagine many other politicians that would be able to be so nonchalant in the face of the totally off the rails shit that Trump says about his opponents. I mean, that's partially how he stomped right over everyone else in the primaries. None of those dudes (and lady) knew how to respond to his name-calling and bullying without making themselves look either whiny and ineffectual or just as bad. But Hillz has a PhD is brushing it off at this point.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:02 PM on October 1, 2016 [79 favorites]


He's seventy years old and it has worked thus far.
I still suspect that the main reason he's running is that it hasn't worked well enough and the Presidency is his one last chance at a Really Big Score that will make him as rich as he believes he should be.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:05 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


(Going back a little and perhaps slightly off topic, but I was impressed enough by this I wanted to make sure the call-out got attention.)

Joey Michaels: By the way, if you like the Drive-By Truckers, their new album, American Band, is a searing look at living the USA in 2016.... Highly recommended if you like your southern rock complicated, politically charged, intelligent and angry.

I hit Spotify for this today and I've listened to the whole album several times, and damn if you ain't 100% spot on. This is a great album, and very scathing and angry in parts.

I think What it Means is my first-take favorite. Forgive me for an extended quote, but it seems to fit in well with the general zeitgeist here:

He was running down the street when they shot him in his tracks
about the only thing agreed upon is he ain't coming back
there won't be any trial so the air it won't be cleared
There's just two sides calling names out of anger and of fear
if you say it wasn't racial when they shot him in his tracks
well I guess that means that you ain't black...

... We're standing on the precipice of prejudice and fear
we trust science just as long as it tells us what we want to hear
we want our truths all fair and balanced as long as our notions lie within it
There's no sunlight in our asses and our heads are stuck up in it
and our heroes may be rapists who watch us while we dream
but don't look to me for answers cuz I don't know what it means


(Fan-sourced lyrics are here if you want more.)
posted by jammer at 6:06 PM on October 1, 2016 [12 favorites]




NYT breaking news: The Times has obtained Donald Trump's 1995 tax records. They suggest he could have paid no federal income tax for 18 years.
Donald J. Trump declared a $916 million loss on his 1995 income tax returns, a tax deduction so substantial it could have allowed him to legally avoid paying any federal income taxes for up to 18 years, records obtained by The New York Times show.

The 1995 tax records, never before disclosed, reveal the extraordinary tax benefits that Mr. Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, derived from the financial wreckage he left behind in the early 1990s through mismanagement of three Atlantic City casinos, his ill-fated foray into the airline business and his ill-timed purchase of the Plaza Hotel in Manhattan.

Tax experts hired by The Times to analyze Mr. Trump’s 1995 records said tax rules that are especially advantageous to wealthy filers would have allowed Mr. Trump to use his $916 million loss to cancel out an equivalent amount of taxable income over an 18-year period.

Although Mr. Trump’s taxable income in subsequent years is as yet unknown, a $916 million loss in 1995 would have been large enough to wipe out more than $50 million a year in taxable income over 18 years.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:14 PM on October 1, 2016 [64 favorites]


(The Guns of Umpqua is another one I like a lot and much sadder. I mention this primary because it's about the Umpqua Community College shooting, but I had to do some googling to figure that out. It's been a year to the day and I'd already forgotten about 9 people being murdered in a school because it happens all the damn time. How fucking sad is that? OK, sorry for the derail, I'm done.)
posted by jammer at 6:17 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


In Pennsylvania, Donald Trump on Hillary Clinton: "She should be in prison... She should be in prison."

Holy shit. He's shut his mouth and smirked during lock her up chants. Now he's just out and out calling for the jailing of his political opponent.

Just when you think you can't see it drop any further, Trump just keeps digging.
posted by Talez at 6:18 PM on October 1, 2016 [39 favorites]


Spent a short time on the drive home just now yelling at a Trump supporter who was being interviewed on NPR. (Not as a call-in)

When pinned down about his misogyny, she -doubled down- on the attacks on Macado before admitting that she disliked his misogyny .. that she was participating in.

I'm not sure she actually understood that what he's doing there is sexist or misogynist, or what that's even bad. She just understands that it's hurting his poll numbers.
posted by Archelaus at 6:18 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


Dude, I wish all my life fuck-ups had resulted in me not having to pay taxes for a couple of decades. I clearly have been choosing the wrong ways to fuck up.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:18 PM on October 1, 2016 [63 favorites]


On a more fun subject, we've learned a bit more about Trump's microphone (which, sadly, does not belong in the shaving kit). Politico, sigh, reports:
According to a source with knowledge of conversations with the debate commissioners, part of the issue rested with Trump touching his microphone, something candidates had been told not to do because the microphones were "calibrated exactly" to the candidate's voices.
This guy on Twitter has a series of stills purporting to show that Trump moved the mic during the debate (though we, of course, never actually see him move it).


Let's go to the videotape! I got these links from a #nevertrump republican friend, you can see Trump move his podium mic here, here (twice), here, here, here, here, and here (all youtube links). So there's Donald grabbing his mic at least eight times after he was instructed not to touch it, 8 year-olds can do better than that.

Is he moving it because he had a problem with it? Maybe. More likely, because it only happens when Hillary is speaking, it's a nervous fidget because he's incapable of standing still and listening to his opponent for more than 5 seconds at a stretch. Either way it's a dumb distraction from Donald getting creamed in that debate.
posted by peeedro at 6:19 PM on October 1, 2016 [32 favorites]


Note: I am actually fine with paying taxes, because I believe in the social contract. But still. None of my failures have come with multiyear perks!
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:20 PM on October 1, 2016 [10 favorites]


From the Times story:
"The three documents arrived by mail at The Times with a postmark indicating they had been sent from New York City. The return address claimed the envelope had been sent from Trump Tower."
MEREDITH?!
posted by Rhaomi at 6:21 PM on October 1, 2016 [102 favorites]


Wow, jammer, thank you for posting that Drive By Truckers! They're a band that I'd heard the name of and never really listened to or payed attention too, and that What it Means song is incredibly powerful and I am going to listen to a bunch of their stuff now, so thank you for introducing me to them! Oh, and on preview, HAHAHAHA about Trump's taxes
posted by Cookiebastard at 6:21 PM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


I still suspect that the main reason he's running is that it hasn't worked well enough and the Presidency is his one last chance at a Really Big Score that will make him as rich as he believes he should be.

To kind of extend this, I really wonder if he's reaching the age where... well, at some point, he realized money wasn't enough. Money hadn't made him feel like a whole person. Money wasn't enough because he wasn't famous enough. I mean, people knew who he was, but they knew so many people better. So obviously, he needed to be on TV. But he did that and being a TV star didn't make him feel like a whole person. He keeps trying to go one step further, to find the thing that'll be the capstone for his life, so that he doesn't just get old and frail and an afterthought. But none of that stuff replaces the fact that he's 70 and his life so far has been practically devoid of meaning.

I do think that there's a very strong possibility that all of this stems from having a fucked-up childhood of his own, but unlike most people who have problems like this, he's had every possible resource available to work on this stuff. He's never lacked the ability to get care. So at this point, we're talking about the consequences of the choices he made. I hope he can find some closure to his life at some point... and I hope it happens in the aftermath of a completely crushing defeat and people learning from the American public that, in fact, you can tell Donald Trump no, and that he spends his remaining days trying to clean up all the messes he's made. Probably wishful thinking, but I can hope.
posted by Sequence at 6:22 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Great October surprise, NYTimes. Thanks.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:23 PM on October 1, 2016 [10 favorites]


The 1995 tax records, never before disclosed, reveal the extraordinary tax benefits that Mr. Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, derived from the financial wreckage he left behind in the early 1990s through mismanagement of three Atlantic City casinos, his ill-fated foray into the airline business and his ill-timed purchase of the Plaza Hotel in Manhattan.

...Weird question - is it possible that he deliberately trashed all this stuff in order to get out of paying taxes?....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:27 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


More like, was it an actual loss or a "loss"?

This is part of the process of "privatize profits and socialize loss" businesses and the wealthy engage in all of the time.
posted by maxwelton at 6:35 PM on October 1, 2016 [9 favorites]


Wait, I can only carry up to $3,000 per year from the losses I incurred when some other coke-snorting charlatan convinced me to buy my overpriced and now worthless stock options. Somebody 'splain how this works for a $916 million dollar loss ... ?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:36 PM on October 1, 2016 [10 favorites]


I really wish NYT had sat on this for another 36 hrs. Breaking on a Saturday night, not so much. Monday morning? Yea. But either way, good on ya.
Headed to new somerville for hillary office tomorrow with snacks at least, data entry at best. Can't stand idly by no matter how much it seems the other camp is self-destructing.
posted by danapiper at 6:39 PM on October 1, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's my understanding he always arrives quite late. I've always assumed it was to make a dramatic entrance.
posted by Superplin at 6:40 PM on October 1, 2016


I really wish NYT had sat on this for another 36 hrs. Breaking on a Saturday night, not so much. Monday morning? Yea. But either way, good on ya.

It'll be on the front page of the Sunday paper.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:40 PM on October 1, 2016 [64 favorites]


I assume it's breaking now because it's in the Sunday edition, which has higher readership than other editions. (Or at least it used to. Maybe that's changed now that most people read things digitally.) It means that it will dominate the Sunday talk shows, although I have no idea whether that still matters, and all the other newspapers will pick it up and run with it on Monday.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:41 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


I mean, I don't think it's going to matter that much, because Trump seems to be bulletproof on being a big old crook and cheat, but I don't think they're burying it. And it's sure as hell going to kick the fake Hillary-insulted-Bernie's-supporters story off of the news cycle.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:42 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Have they been verified?
posted by drezdn at 6:43 PM on October 1, 2016


The tax records are coming from inside the tower! Inside the tower!
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:44 PM on October 1, 2016 [32 favorites]


My mom, who lives in New Jersey, who works two jobs, who raised three kids on her own for a long time. and who has always voted Republican, decided for sure on Monday night that she's voting for Hillary. The story tonight solidified it further, I think.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:45 PM on October 1, 2016 [51 favorites]


drezdn: Yes, verified by his accountant from the time.
posted by janewman at 6:45 PM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


Have they been verified?

It's in the article. They got the man who prepared them, Jack Mitnick, to verify them.
posted by Talez at 6:46 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


I really wish NYT had sat on this for another 36 hrs. Breaking on a Saturday night, not so much. Monday morning? Yea. But either way, good on ya.

It broke in time for Sunday morning edition, and it should be a hot topic on all the Sunday morning political talking head shows that old people still watch. Not to mention it'll spread through the rest of the press in the early part of the week.
posted by palomar at 6:46 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Do we think he knew the NYT piece was coming out and that's why he was 2 hours late to tonight's rally? Or is being that late just one of his wacky things?

They claimed his helicopter was delayed because the weather is lousy, which I believe because it is pretty lousy. Downside for a candidate who insists on flying home every night- travel delays should really be built into the schedule.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:46 PM on October 1, 2016


(disclosure: i am old and watch the sunday news shows when local radio's sunday morning blues show doesn't strike my fancy. because i'm my own grandfather.)
posted by palomar at 6:47 PM on October 1, 2016 [7 favorites]


@speechboy71: Trump just imitated/mocked Clinton falling on Sept 11th & got some of the loudest cheers of the night from his economically anxious crowd
posted by chris24 at 6:47 PM on October 1, 2016 [13 favorites]


Anyone could put that return address on the envelope. I have no doubt that Minas Trump is full of people who hate Donald, so putting the address there was a simple, free way to leave an upper decker in his suite.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:48 PM on October 1, 2016 [13 favorites]


I mean, I don't think it's going to matter that much, because Trump seems to be bulletproof on being a big old crook and cheat, but I don't think they're burying it. And it's sure as hell going to kick the fake Hillary-insulted-Bernie's-supporters story off of the news cycle.

Yes which is good.
And also at this point the more things that he's bombarded with the better. He's shown he breaks when having to be on the defensive and the more he feels like he's under attack and losing the more he loses it. He loses any focus that he could manage, his ability to keep on a consistent message that would be positive for him and is more likely to say and do stupid things.

So tomorrow it will be taxes again and possibily being shamed and made fun of in a way he can't handle on Saturday Night Live.
posted by Jalliah at 6:48 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


Have they been verified?
They've had the documents for a month and have been sitting on them while they had various people look at them. The tax preparer who prepared his taxes looked at them and says he thinks they're legit. It could be a very, very good hoax, but it sounds like the Times is satisfied that it's not.

And they got comment from the Trump camp, so they clearly knew this was coming. That may be why he went with "that makes me smart." They're going to run with the idea that this is just good business, which I guess it is, but it's deeply, deeply fucked up. Someone making $40,000 a year should not be paying more taxes than Donald Trump.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:48 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


Does this mean I have to stay up until 3am to see what Trump will tweet about the Times? (twitter)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:49 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Anyone could put that return address on the envelope. I have no doubt that Minas Trump is full of people who hate Donald, so putting the address there was a simple, free way to leave an upper decker in his suite.

Yep and a nice piece of bait to get him to start yelling and screaming to find out who did it. He's gonna be right pissed that somebody somewhere betrayed him like this and will be calling for heads to roll.
posted by Jalliah at 6:51 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Thank you for the comfort. I'm the news consumer that pays no attention to news (except y'all ) until Monday AM, so I'm happy to hear there might be a strategy here after all.
posted by danapiper at 6:53 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh please, please, please - I just want this festering asstumor to be held accountable for once in his goddamn life.
posted by bibliowench at 6:54 PM on October 1, 2016 [20 favorites]


They've had the documents for a month and have been sitting on them while they had various people look at them. The tax preparer who prepared his taxes looked at them and says he thinks they're legit. It could be a very, very good hoax, but it sounds like the Times is satisfied that it's not.

Ah okay. Ignore my above post then. He must have already had that freak out then. :D Would be cool to know when exactly he found out about to see if it matches up with one of his more ranty phases.
posted by Jalliah at 6:54 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


He's gonna be right pissed that somebody somewhere betrayed him like this and will be calling for heads to roll.

Everyone knows Christie is a traitor.
posted by drezdn at 6:55 PM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]




I just hope Hillary refers to him as a "millionaire" when she refers to him not paying taxes in her speeches later on.

Either he accepts the demotion but seethes about it, or, he starts yapping about how not only did he not pay any taxes, he didn't pay taxes on 1000 times more money. And seethes about it.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 6:55 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hole?
posted by phearlez at 6:55 PM on October 1, 2016 [8 favorites]




via Twitter: If submitted on time, these Trump tax returns would have been filed four weeks before Alicia Machado was crowned Miss Universe.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:59 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump seemingly implying Hillary has cheated on Bill.

@maggieNYT: Trump goes further: "I don't even think she's loyal to Bill, if you want to know the truth. And really folks, why should she be, right?"
posted by chris24 at 7:00 PM on October 1, 2016


Trump campaign responds to New York Times story (via The Guardian)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:02 PM on October 1, 2016


A flaw in the tax software program he used at the time prevented him from being able to print a nine-figure loss on Mr. Trump’s New York return, he said. So, for example, the loss of “-915,729,293” on Line 18 of the return printed out as “5,729,293.” As a result, Mr. Mitnick recalled, he had to use his typewriter to manually add the “-91,”
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:04 PM on October 1, 2016 [31 favorites]


if you like the Drive-By Truckers, their new album, American Band, is a searing look at living the USA in 2016

Decoration Day came out in '03 and I've always been amazed that more campaigns haven't used "Hell no, I ain't happy" as bumper music.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:04 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump campaign responds to New York Times story (via The Guardian

Oh yes, the illustrious "NUH UH!"
posted by Talez at 7:04 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's almost like Hillary knew the NYT had the returns when she lit the fuse on Monday.
posted by Flashman at 7:04 PM on October 1, 2016 [11 favorites]


That gif of Trump mocking Clinton while sick should be on every news show in the country tomorrow, with every news anchor in existence calling it a disqualifier.

He's done and said some horrible things, but that is such a perfect storm of cruel and petty and stupid and immature and shortsighted and stupid, I can't even wrap my brain around it.

I'm sure those few seconds were incredibly pleasurable for him, and I sincerely hope he reaps the rewards for it in many, many vicious and destructive news cycles to come.
posted by invincible summer at 7:05 PM on October 1, 2016 [32 favorites]


It'd be great if Home Depot put out a commercial featuring people coming in asking where the sex tape is and getting a confused "What?" as a response.
posted by juiceCake at 7:05 PM on October 1, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's almost like Hillary knew the NYT had the returns when she lit the fuse on Monday.

Something about the way she said it made me sure she knew she was right, though I worried (wrongly?) they'd used illegal access at IRS to get it.
posted by gerryblog at 7:07 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


allowed Mr. Trump to use his $916 million loss to cancel out an equivalent amount of taxable income over an 18-year period.

Honestly I think "he lost almost a billion dollars, and might have taken 18 years to become solvent again" might have more legs than "he might have paid no taxes for 18 years."

I mean maybe paying no taxes makes you "smart," but what does losing a billion dollars make you?
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:09 PM on October 1, 2016 [27 favorites]


I mean maybe paying no taxes makes you "smart," but what does losing a billion dollars make you?

Is this one of those jokes that ends with the phrase "same as in town?"
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:11 PM on October 1, 2016 [13 favorites]


I mean maybe paying no taxes makes you "smart," but what does losing a billion dollars make you?

Apparently the Presidential candidate of the Republican party.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:12 PM on October 1, 2016 [50 favorites]


Trump campaign responds to New York Times story (via The Guardian)

tl;dr: Put up or shut up.
...Mr. Trump has paid hundreds of millions of dollars in property taxes, sales and excise taxes, real estate taxes, city taxes, state taxes, employee taxes and federal taxes, along with very substantial charitable contributions.
We know he doesn't make charitable contributions. Why should we believe he pays any taxes without seeing his returns?
What is happening now with the FBI and DOJ on Hillary Clinton's emails and illegal server, including her many lies and her lies to Congress are worse than what took place in the administration of Richard Nixon -- and far more illegal.
1) The FBI said "no charges are appropriate in this case"
2) What specific lies to Congress?
3) Nixon arranged a criminal break-in, laundered money, committed obstruction of justice, and had the head of the FBI destroy evidence in a criminal investigation.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:12 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


*slow clap*

Well, well, well. The Paper of Record gets a break. The taxes - 3 summaries from 1995's NY, NJ & CT returns - showed up on Wednesday and you calculating bastiges did your homework and waited for Sunday's nattering nabobs to sleep on.

Chuck "Well yeah but Hillary supposedly buys store-brand" Todd has to be throwing caution to the wind and having a Coke Zero after 10pm tonight, baby! Trump's core demo tape that shit to watch after brunch. Front page of the Week's fattest -and in some cases only- edition. You ice-cold bastiges.

Wuzza, Trump? You - you say "Follow the money"? That's your new, my mic was bad follow the money, like, thing right?

A flaw in the tax software program he used at the time prevented him from being able to print a nine-figure loss on Mr. Trump’s New York return, he said. So, for example, the loss of “-915,729,293” on Line 18 of the return printed out as “5,729,293.” As a result, Mr. Mitnick recalled, he had to use his typewriter to manually add the “-91,” thus explaining why the first two digits appeared to be in a different font and were slightly misaligned from the following seven digits.

A flaw. Right.
posted by petebest at 7:13 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Guise! I'm really excited because I have to wake up at 3AM, which means I'll get to see Trump's angry tweets in real time. I didn't even know there was a 3AM.

🎵 IT'S 3AM AND I MUST BE ANGRY 🎵
posted by guiseroom at 7:14 PM on October 1, 2016 [17 favorites]


Trumpie sure is comfortable mockingly mimicking people's physical challenges. It almost makes you wonder if he does that on a regular basis.

Guys: do not defend Hillary on the email business. Do not take the bait at all. We are not talking about the email now. We are talking about the fact that Trump is a business loser whose success comes from having smart accountants who allow him to fail upwards. If he weren't a trust fund baby, he would be taking the bus because his car was repossessed.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:16 PM on October 1, 2016 [55 favorites]


And y'know what I'm thinking about that NYT article?

Thank God they didn't let that Healy dude have a hand in it.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:17 PM on October 1, 2016 [5 favorites]


It'd be great if Home Depot put out a commercial featuring people coming in asking where the sex tape is and getting a confused "What?" as a response.

Sex tape is a thing (Wikipedia but maybe NSFW)
posted by dis_integration at 7:18 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm basically cackling over the idea that Trump is going to be under pressure to release his other tax returns to prove that he is not just a LOSER who has NO INCOME.

Please, munificent Gods of old-school journalism leaks, let this be the line taken by the Sunday chattering class.

I'll also take general bashing Trump for what a loser he is, to have incurred almost a billion dollar loss back in 1995.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:21 PM on October 1, 2016 [21 favorites]


Sex tape is a thing (Wikipedia but maybe NSFW)

Um... I have heard that vet bandaging tape is way cheaper and comes in many colors to fit your mood...

Or so I have heard...
posted by mikelieman at 7:23 PM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


How can somebody literally live in a bunch of fucking gold houses and own planes and not pay ANY income taxes?

I contrast this to my household, always ending up "owing" on the 1040, at times missing payment extensions (cos the money's needed for luxuries like, oh, car repairs and health care), then having to pay interest penalty too.

On income that's probably 1/10th of what Donny Jr. forks out for just one endangered-species-killing trip.

But at least I'm enjoying this new reality show, "Trump Towers, Dumpster Fire."
posted by NorthernLite at 7:23 PM on October 1, 2016 [20 favorites]


OK, I'm late to the party, but I just listened to the "parents basement" audio... SHE GODDAMN GETS IT. Anyone who's ever had to be there, done that... they GET IT. Hillary understands. Oh, holy hell, I didn't understand her whole "listening thing" before that audio, but now I'm on the verge of tears, no sarcasm or irony, she just goddamn gets it. I've been there in my adult life. I see it with family and friends right now.

Wow. Just wow. No wonder Bernie is stumping for her as hard as he is.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:25 PM on October 1, 2016 [64 favorites]


I think What it Means is my first-take favorite. Forgive me for an extended quote, but it seems to fit in well with the general zeitgeist here:

Oh wow. That's brutal. The Truckers are a national treasure and by any rights should be filling stadiums and not the clubs that they're still playing.
posted by octothorpe at 7:25 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


But the most important revelation from the 1995 tax documents is just how much Mr. Trump may have benefited from a tax provision that is particularly prized by America’s dynastic families, who, like the Trumps, hold their wealth inside byzantine networks of partnerships, limited-liability companies and S corporations.

The provision, known as “net operating loss,” or “N.O.L.,” allows a dizzying array of deductions, business expenses, real estate depreciation, losses from the sale of business assets and even operating losses to flow from the balance sheets of those partnerships, limited liability companies and S corporations onto the personal tax returns of men like Mr. Trump. In turn, those losses can then be used to cancel out an equivalent amount of taxable income from, say, book royalties or branding deals.


So all my shitty business ventures are deductable! Ha Haaaa Columbia Record Club, who's laughing now?!

But seriously, Wig Genius here lost $43 million that year operating a *casino* ffs.
posted by petebest at 7:25 PM on October 1, 2016 [5 favorites]




FTFA:

Mr. Trump is a highly-skilled businessman who has a fiduciary responsibility to his business, his family and his employees to pay no more tax than legally required,

who knew people had fiduciary obligations to their family and employees

/legal pedant snark
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:26 PM on October 1, 2016 [13 favorites]


@maggieNYT: Trump goes further: "I don't even think she's loyal to Bill, if you want to know the truth. And really folks, why should she be, right?"

Okay, I'm not going to follow night Twitter, but my prediction is that this is his meltdown angle. A good deal of his base either believes that Hillary cheats with women, that Chelsea isn't Bill's, or both. If this is on his mind tonight and he's Mad Online, Katie bar the door.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:26 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


How can somebody literally live in a bunch of fucking gold houses and own planes and not pay ANY income taxes?

Leverage, basically, you're in hock/massive amounts of debt with your assets as your collateral.

Or, Other People's Money.

Like mentioned, it doesn't matter what his income is, what matters is his margin.
posted by porpoise at 7:26 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


It takes a special kind of shitty businessman to take casinos, where the house always wins, and rack up a billion dollars in losses. Then to claim credit for knowing how to make a deal?

No wonder he's been hawking vodka and steaks and clothing and water and courses and and and...

Reminder: if Donald had taken his dad's money and just invested in an index fund, he'd be so much better off. Everything he touches turns to shit.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:31 PM on October 1, 2016 [44 favorites]


This is the sick thing about wealth in this country. If you're considered one of the rich people, you don't even need to have money. They will give you money to burn doing whatever you want. If you're not one of the rich people, even if you have an income, it's still hard to buy a house. But I worked for a real estate developer who was kind of like a mini-Trump, and it was revolting that he'd managed to completely crash and burn one business, including like ten different apartment complexes that he'd allowed to turn into slums, and he just basically asked for a do-over and got investors to give him money to do it all over again. At the time I stopped working for him, he was doing okay, but he had no concept whatsoever of needing to earn a living. He just thought all the draws on the construction loans were his personal money.
posted by Sequence at 7:31 PM on October 1, 2016 [22 favorites]


If nothing else was fun about the conventions (which, you know, it was all fun), Chelsea having Bill's exact same vocal fry was petty great. Those genes run hard.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:31 PM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


Best line of defence for Trump's team is to say this was only one year and was a Big Bath.
posted by Yowser at 7:32 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think you all got more out of that WaPo piece than I did ... it struck me as a (very shallow) profile of a certain sort of person. I'm guessing the wapo readership is the kind of people who would say, "How does someone possibly support Trump?! How does it make sense to them?" in a scandalized sort of way. Well, this is one worldview that lets someone support Trump.

It's profoundly weird to me that you would call this worldview a mental illness, when they not only laid out the rational basis for her thoughts but noted how she found support for them in elected officials and media outlets.
As Melanie saw it, what she had posted about Obama was no different from what a New Hampshire state legislator and Trump campaign adviser had said about Hillary Clinton, that she “should be put in the firing line and shot for treason.”

“If it’s time to lock me up, it’s time to lock up the world,” Melanie remembered thinking when she had heard that.
Lots of people believe that President Obama is Muslim. It's not a mental illness. Lots of people believe that Muslim people are inherently anti-American. These premises logically lead to their conclusions.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 7:32 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


From the Times story: He also declined to contribute $1 toward public financing of New Jersey’s elections for governor.

I think I have always checked "yes" on this sort of thing on my tax forms in my state(s), but I don't blame anyone who doesn't. It's a totally petty detail regardless. I can't blame anyone for passing on that.

And yet I think it is gloriously petty of the NYT to make sure everyone knows of this petty detail, and I salute them for it.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:33 PM on October 1, 2016 [47 favorites]


Wait, I am a tax moron, but how does a loss become a deduction?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:35 PM on October 1, 2016


Mr. Mitnick was the person Mr. Trump leaned on most to do the spinning. The lawyer and accountant worked for a small Long Island accounting firm that specialized in handling tax issues for wealthy New York real estate families. Mr. Mitnick had long handled tax matters for Mr. Trump’s father, Fred C. Trump, and he said he began doing Donald Trump’s taxes after Mr. Trump turned 18.

. . . But he did talk about Mr. Trump’s approaches to taxes, and he contrasted Fred Trump’s attention to detail with what he described as Mr. Trump’s brash and undisciplined style. He recalled, for example, that when Donald and Ivana Trump came in each year to sign their tax forms, it was almost always Ivana who asked the most questions.

. . . In “Art of the Deal,” his 1987 best-selling book, Mr. Trump referred to Mr. Mitnick as “my accountant” — although he misspelled his name.


Ouch. Awkwaarrrd.
posted by petebest at 7:35 PM on October 1, 2016 [7 favorites]


Misspelling 'Jack Mitnick' as 'Kevin Mitnick,' that's just sloppy.
posted by box at 7:39 PM on October 1, 2016 [9 favorites]


So, uh, is this one of those losses that got wiped out in one of his bankruptcy filings? (which presumably wouldn't prevent the deduction from being used in subsequent returns because of loopholes gotta loop)
posted by ckape at 7:39 PM on October 1, 2016


Bill Maher Rips Trump’s Debate Fail: ‘The Coke Wore Off’:
Republicans out there: thank you so much for this. Thank you so much. You must be so fucking proud that your candidate takes a concrete position on something, and it’s: no fat chicks.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:42 PM on October 1, 2016 [36 favorites]




So where is there any proof that Trump's tax forms EVERY YEAR weren't like this, with nine-digit losses wiping out all tax liability? Hmmmm?
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:43 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


Leaked Donald Trump Records Show He May Not Have Owed Taxes for Years
TIME - ‎41 minutes ago‎

Leaked tax documents reveal how Trump could have avoided paying income tax for a decade
Vox - ‎1 hour ago‎

Donald Trump Tax Returns Reportedly Show $916 Million Loss in 1995
ABC News - ‎21 minutes ago‎

The New York Times just published some of Donald Trump's 1995 tax records — here's what they reveal
Business Insider - ‎39 minutes ago‎

Donald Trump 'declared £700 MILLION loss in 1995 and could have avoided tax for 18 years'
Mirror.co.uk - ‎22 minutes ago‎

Trump tax records surface: The Donald declared $916M loss in 1995
New York Daily News - ‎48 minutes ago‎


*lights cigarette, enjoys*
posted by petebest at 7:44 PM on October 1, 2016 [52 favorites]


The master businessman doesn't even bother to know the name of the man who has been his personal accountant for his entire adult life? The man he trusts—apparently unquestioningly—to file his taxes for him? Donald, you are so full of shit.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:45 PM on October 1, 2016 [27 favorites]


I wonder if the tax returns had any influence on the Times' endorsement of Clinton?
posted by annsunny at 7:49 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm only about 50 pages into this book but it begins with a look at why Americans don't even like to acknowledge that class in the U.S. even *exists*. Maybe this (and more stuff I'm increasingly sure is coming this month) will get people talking about it, at least.

Allow me to dream a bit; it's Saturday night and I had a couple of Merry Irishwomen. Lovely fall drink.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:51 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Well, well, well. The Paper of Record gets a break.

it's really funny to watch the NYT go from "The Paper of Record" to "A BUNCH OF LYING LIARS WHO ARE IN THE TANK FOR TRUMP!!!" and back to "The Paper of Record" depending on who they're reporting on in a given week.
posted by indubitable at 7:51 PM on October 1, 2016 [15 favorites]




Trump Taxes PDF, for those who don't like dealing with gifs embedded in the NYT viewer.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:55 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


Nothing about this election is what I'd call fun, exactly.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:55 PM on October 1, 2016 [15 favorites]


I wonder if the tax returns had any influence on the Times' endorsement of Clinton?

Are you putting forward the proposition that there was any chance in hell of the Times not endorsing Clinton? No, no the tax returns didn't make a difference.
posted by Justinian at 7:55 PM on October 1, 2016 [15 favorites]


Man. In the span of a week, I've gone from "heavy self-medication" to "grinning with schadenfreude".

The tax thing is delicious. Trump is now playing defense on multiple fronts – and if we've learned one thing about Trump, it's that he's at his absolute worst when he's on the defensive. That's when he does his most erratic and intemperate flailing.

Please, whatever forces govern the universe: after forcing me to endure the last fifteen months, let the next 37 days be an epic downward spiral for this absurd creature. I want his poll numbers to tumble, I want the media narrative to become "Trump: what the hell is happening to this guy?", and I want to see him frothing and gibbering as his elaborately constructed delusions of grandeur disintegrate around him.

In other circumstances, with any other candidate, I might feel guilty about such thoughts. But, in these circumstances, with this candidate? Fuck this guy. He does not deserve my empathy. And everyone whose country has been held hostage for the last year and a half have goddamned earned the right to indulge in a bit of bitter glee as the gunman goes down in flames.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:00 PM on October 1, 2016 [91 favorites]


Remember the end of Season 2 of OITNB? That's about how I'm feeling right now.

Always so rude, that one. (warning, spoilers!)
posted by stolyarova at 8:03 PM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


Just curious if anyone has ever done an analysis of the Twitter @replies to pro-HRC/anti-Trump vs pro-Trump/anti-HRC tweets. Because every one of the former I've ever seen is 9/10 pro-Trump abuse and #stupidhashtags whereas I don't really ever on purpose read the latter and am curious whether there's legions of pro-HRC Twitter trolls out there filling up the replies with memes and hashtags.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:05 PM on October 1, 2016


> That's when he does his most erratic and intemperate flailing.

I feel like not showing his tax records is only going to be worse for him.

"maybe he kept losing money the following year"

"maybe he's really only now barely making money"

I hope this whole endeavor leaves him penniless.
posted by mrzarquon at 8:05 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


There's nothing that says the Times can't be both "The Paper of Record" and doing an overall poor job of covering the election. I think "A BUNCH OF LYING LIARS WHO ARE IN THE TANK FOR TRUMP!!!" is a bit much, but hyperbole aside there have been times during this election when I've thought to myself, "With friends like these, who needs enemies?" For a paper that supposedly slants heavily Democratic, they've sure held Hillary to a much higher standard than Donald, much of the time.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:07 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's not necessarily illegal or immoral not to pay taxes, but to act like you're completely above explaining your financial situation to the American people before you get your hands on the Treasury Department is going to have some consequences. Mitt Romney already demonstrated them, but learning from the past is not Trump's strong suit.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:07 PM on October 1, 2016 [17 favorites]


I just got back from my decided-upon-at-the-last-minute trip to Reno to volunteer for the Hillary For America campaign(have I missed anything?), prompted by comments and links in these election threads. They sent me out to register voters, and I got...exactly zero registrations. But I'm not discouraged. There was no way to know that where they sent me, almost everyone I met would be already registered, or from out of state. Saturday, October 8th is the last day to register voters in Nevada, so I plan to go back next weekend and try again, this time with my wife. Speaking of whom...

She's been really (i mean really) anxious these past few weeks over the possibility of Trump getting elected. She's in Florida right now, in the middle of a two-week business trip, so (based on comments I've read in these threads) I suggested that if she saw the Clinton campaign up-close, she'd feel more confident. I gave her the hillaryclinton.com/events link that someone had posted. She volunteered, and this morning she made her four-registrations-for-the-day quota in 90 minutes. She said before the debate, her anxiety level was 7 on a 10 scale, but now it's 3. She feels better, she's made a difference, and I feel proud of myself for having inspired her to do it. You guys inspired me to inspire her, and you should feel proud of yourselves. Cause I feel proud of all of you.
posted by ogooglebar at 8:07 PM on October 1, 2016 [101 favorites]


it's really funny to watch the NYT go from "The Paper of Record" to "A BUNCH OF LYING LIARS WHO ARE IN THE TANK FOR TRUMP!!!" and back to "The Paper of Record" depending on who they're reporting on in a given week.

No, they're the 800-pound print gorilla, but they've been skidding for so long on reporting Trump's various crimes and misdemeanors that it's genuinely shameful.

Perhaps they did the investigating that prized these records from the bowels of Trump Tower, but mostly it seems they got a mega-scoop handed to them. "The Paper of Record" here is like "back at it again with the white Vans!" kind of teasing. Cause they finally broke something decent.

Srsly NYT . . . have fun tonight, but . . . watchin u . . .
posted by petebest at 8:09 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


it's really funny to watch the NYT go from "The Paper of Record" to "A BUNCH OF LYING LIARS WHO ARE IN THE TANK FOR TRUMP!!!" and back to "The Paper of Record" depending on who they're reporting on in a given week.

It's more of an IF they are reporting, TBH.
posted by Artw at 8:10 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


juiceCake: "It'd be great if Home Depot put out a commercial featuring people coming in asking where the sex tape is and getting a confused "What?" as a response."

I wonder how many people are finding out about bondage tape because of that stupid tweet and are saying "Yes, just what we needed". The GOP nominee for President could be responsible for thousands adding bondage to their sexual toolbox.

OnceUponATime: "I mean maybe paying no taxes makes you "smart," but what does losing a billion dollars make you?"

With a Casino! A Casino! I really wonder what percentage of Casinos lose money.

Yowser: "Best line of defence for Trump's team is to say this was only one year and was a Big Bath."

Not that they are afraid of straight up lying but if this statement isn't true it would seem to be pretty risky to declare it. Another leaked return would blow up 10x as much if they go this way.
posted by Mitheral at 8:12 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


NYT has been dead to me since Judith Miller. If their lurching corpse accidentally does something right, it's a coincidence, not any sort of conscious act.
posted by mikelieman at 8:12 PM on October 1, 2016 [13 favorites]


I really wonder what percentage of Casinos lose money.

None, unless the owner is crooked or incompetent.

Or both, maybe.
posted by petebest at 8:15 PM on October 1, 2016 [5 favorites]


really wonder what percentage of Casinos lose money.

None, unless the owner is crooked or incompetent.


It wasn't hard to come up with this link. I assume you have a lot of costs: facilities, staff, debt servicing, etc., and you have to bring in enough gamblers to cover your costs and make a profit. The house should always win, and your losses shouldn't come from gambling itself, but if you don't have a full house you'll still lose overall.
posted by dis_integration at 8:21 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


It wasn't hard to come up with this link.

It's amazing that )adjusting for inflation) last year, the entire Nevada casino industry lost well south of half as much as Trump alone did in 1995.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:26 PM on October 1, 2016 [21 favorites]


The Trump campaign response calls the tax documents both "alleged" and "illegally obtained". So... which is it, fake or stolen? Or are they suggesting there's a bunch of ginned-up tax documents lying around Trump Tower?
posted by GhostintheMachine at 8:27 PM on October 1, 2016 [11 favorites]


I suspect NYT had this dropped in their laps and the following executive discussion occurred:
"I don't want to touch this with a ten-foot pole. You know the Editorial Page guys'll be ecstatic, but the Real Estate Ad people will panic that we'll never get another penny from Trump Properties."
"But if we don't report it, the source will go someplace else and part of the story will be 'The NYT didn't run with this so WE did'."
"Okay, I'll work on some ponderous background and confirmation; that'll buy us some time."
"Look on the bright side; maybe after the election, Trump Properties will have to liquidate and they'll be owned by somebody else... somebody who pays in full and on time."
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:28 PM on October 1, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's not necessarily illegal or immoral not to pay taxes

I think it is absolutely immoral for someone as wealthy as Donald Trump (even the not-a-billionaire version) to not pay income tax.
posted by Justinian at 8:31 PM on October 1, 2016 [77 favorites]


Mod note: Let's drop the mental illness derail.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 8:32 PM on October 1, 2016 [7 favorites]


Alec Baldwin and Kate McKinnon doing Donald and Hillary on SNL for the debate cold open is pretty entertaining. McKinnon reacting to Donald going off the rails is priceless, and Baldwin is nailing the gestures and faces.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:37 PM on October 1, 2016 [8 favorites]


If you're a 'highly skilled businessmen', society provides you with adults who are suitably well-educated to serve as employees, and with customers with money, roads for these people to drive on so they can reach your stores, police to make them feel safe while doing so, etc., etc. Hilariously, people used to think that 'highly skilled businessmen' were obliged to return some of this value to society by having the decency to pay their fucking taxes.

It's not nearly enough for this rat bastard to just lose. He should be held up as an example of everything that is grasping, ugly, and indecent about the rigged game that is American capitalism and, at this point, democracy as well.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:38 PM on October 1, 2016 [42 favorites]


Baldwin looks amazingly like the man. McKinnon is young and fresh and did the Willy Wonka front flip and ❤️
posted by Countess Elena at 8:38 PM on October 1, 2016 [7 favorites]


It was considerate of the New York Times to wait until everyone's free article counter reset to release the story.
posted by ckape at 8:40 PM on October 1, 2016 [86 favorites]


> HALF of Americans don't pay income tax despite crippling govt debt...

Not the better half.
- Donald Trump (probably)
posted by guiseroom at 8:42 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


McKinnon's H is just terrific also. I am personally glad they didnt make baldwin totally cheetoh orange.

Frankly the whole thing is just way to close to how the debate actually went down for comfort - i hope i can look back on this in a month and a half as really funny.

the "what do you think about that? / I think im going to be president" was super choice.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 8:44 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


If their lurching corpse accidentally does something right, it's a coincidence, not any sort of conscious act.

yup, they thought they were getting the typical neoliberal with their Krugman hire, until he caught BDS in 2002.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:53 PM on October 1, 2016


Tonight's realization:

Tankgirl was in theatres when Trump last paid taxes.
posted by mrzarquon at 8:58 PM on October 1, 2016 [32 favorites]


Mr. Trump wants to repeal the estate tax, lower the top individual tax rate from 39.6% to 33%, repeal taxes on high-income households that took effect in 2013 and lower business taxes. That plan would increase the after-tax income of the top 1% of households by between 10.2% and 16%, according to the conservative-leaning Tax Foundation.
posted by salix at 9:03 PM on October 1, 2016 [7 favorites]


In March 1995, Mississippi ratified the Thirteenth Amendment, becoming the last state to approve the abolition of slavery.
posted by guiseroom at 9:10 PM on October 1, 2016 [26 favorites]


Wait, I can only carry up to $3,000 per year from the losses I incurred when some other coke-snorting charlatan convinced me to buy my overpriced and now worthless stock options. Somebody 'splain how this works for a $916 million dollar loss ... ?

The capital losses you are talking about and net operating losses on Trump's return are accounted for differently. If it is any consolation, Trump is also taking a $3000 deduction for capital losses on his return, just like you, but that deduction is worthless because his tax is already zero from his other deductions. So Trump is throwing away $3000 of unused deductions each year. Small consolation, but there it is.
posted by JackFlash at 9:13 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


I wouldn't be surprised if he has claimed the Earned Income Tax credit.
posted by humanfont at 9:17 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


The interesting thing is that the leak didn't come from the IRS because it includes only his state returns. But it also likely did not come from any one state because it includes his state returns from New York, New Jersey and Connecticut. It must have come from someone who has access to his state returns but not his federal returns. Perhaps someone in the Trump Organization but more likely some third party like a bank or commission that required these documents. Curious.
posted by JackFlash at 9:19 PM on October 1, 2016 [5 favorites]


Maybe the lack of federal returns is just because the leaker was considerate of the fact that the IRS has him under audit.
posted by ckape at 9:23 PM on October 1, 2016 [20 favorites]


Wait, I am a tax moron, but how does a loss become a deduction?

Presumably because businesses are taxed based on their profits, whereas normal people are taxed based upon what a business would refer to as revenue. You don't get to deduct your rent from your income, for example, but a business does. If a business's rent or other expenses put it at a "loss" one year, it gets to treat those losses as connected to yearly profits in subsequent years.

This is the basic problem with a "flat tax": they aren't going to change this, so anyone who can arrange to receive their income through something like "The Trump Organization" will get to play by business rules.

By the way, I've been surprised that I haven't seen it in the headlines anywhere, but the IRS reports on the top 400 taxpayers show that the number of those people who are in the "0%-10%" effective tax rate bracket has gone up and up and up during the last eight years, to the point that in 2013 or 2014 there were dozens of them. The first time I heard about it was that for the 2009 tax year there were six of them, which seemed incredible at the time but I thought it was an aftereffect of the global financial crisis; evidently it wasn't.
posted by XMLicious at 9:26 PM on October 1, 2016 [14 favorites]


People on twitter are speculating that Tiffany Trump could have been the source of the Trump tax leak.

I don't think there's any serious evidence of this, but it's an amusing pop culture conspiracy theory in progress.
posted by idiopath at 9:26 PM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


From NYT: The statement continued, “Mr. Trump knows the tax code far better than anyone who has ever run for President and he is the only one that knows how to fix it.”

This is the really funny thing about Trump's campaign. The idea that his success as a businessperson will transfer to success as a president only makes sense if you believe that he's on your side--that because he knows all the ways that wealthy screw the middle and lower classes, he'll be best positioned to fix the problems that allow that to happen. But Trump himself never supports that narrative. Every opportunity he has to say that he's on your side, he makes it clear that he's not.
posted by roll truck roll at 9:28 PM on October 1, 2016 [9 favorites]


What? I totally sent them the federal return.
posted by miyabo at 9:30 PM on October 1, 2016 [10 favorites]


Tonight's realization: Tankgirl was in theatres when Trump last paid taxes.

My own realization was that "wait, that's when I was still kinda hoping I could go see Lilith Fair."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:31 PM on October 1, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump's "check out sex tape" might as well be a Gob line from Arrested Development.
posted by guiseroom at 9:34 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


From NYT: The statement continued, “Mr. Trump knows the tax code far better than anyone who has ever run for President and he is the only one that knows how to fix it.”

All the evidence indicates the opposite is true. It seems that Trump simply handed everything over to his accountant and had no idea of what the numbers meant. His accountant said they he was brash and undiciplined and asked fewer questions about his return than Ivana. Trump may know a bit about a tiny section of the tax code that applies to him but very little in general.
posted by JackFlash at 9:35 PM on October 1, 2016 [13 favorites]


"sex tape"? I thought you said "tax rate"...
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:37 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]






Whatever bullshit Roger Stone is cooking up, it probably ties into any number of the lies he told last week.
posted by palomar at 10:09 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


The SNL sketch is embedded here if you want to see Alec Baldwin murder it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:11 PM on October 1, 2016 [20 favorites]


Wednesday @HillaryClinton is done #wikileaks — Roger Stone Jr.

Well if Roger Stone said it then it must be the truth. Right, people?
posted by Talez at 10:18 PM on October 1, 2016


Wikileaks keeps claiming the next release will torpedo Clinton, and it's mostly been a big yawn. This one will probably be more of the same. But like I said earlier, some sort of hacked release is about all that can stop Clinton now 'cause Trump isn't going to.
posted by Justinian at 10:20 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


The great triple-play combo of 2016: Putin to Assange to Stone... too bad baseball season is over and their team didn't make the playoffs.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:21 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Will Jordan (@williamjordann):
Monday: Debate
Tuesday: Machado
Wednesday: Polls
Thursday: Cuba
Friday: Porn
Saturday: Taxes
posted by salix at 10:24 PM on October 1, 2016 [34 favorites]


Just glad they're getting their October Surprise over with by Wednesday the 5th, so it can fully blow up in Trump's face by the weekend and Team Hillary has a full 31 days for GOTV and laughing at the silly men.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:29 PM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]



I wish I didn't see that tweet, part of me is now all worried that its actually something really bad and then another part of me is all, I can't wait and I wanna know what they think is going to be bad but really isn't.

Dammit.
posted by Jalliah at 10:32 PM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


If they had anything, and Trump knew about it, he'd have tweeted it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:37 PM on October 1, 2016 [10 favorites]


Roger Stone may be smart enough to keep Trump in the dark. Sadly. Could be bullshit to try to distract from the NYT tax story hitting the papers tomorrow. Could be the real thing. We'll see.
posted by Justinian at 10:41 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


@BenjySarlin: This week is like if Dukakis got in the tank, saw the TV coverage, got back in the tank, drove cross country while staff begged him to stop
posted by chris24 at 10:55 PM on October 1, 2016 [42 favorites]


...Weird question - is it possible that he deliberately trashed all this stuff in order to get out of paying taxes?....

I'd guess if you care about money after the first couple million, you don't want your business to lose .9 billion dollars in order to save some quantity less than .9 billion dollars in personal taxes. For one thing, you could use the profits from the successful business to go and make even more money (once you're done gold-plating your eliminatory facilities.)
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:58 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mod note: Couple deleted. If there is a problem with someone subtweeting David Duke in this thread, hit the contact form or at the very least flag it. Don't make me guess. Relatedly, don't quote racist assholes to no purpose except outrage. They don't need the platform expansion.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 10:59 PM on October 1, 2016 [9 favorites]


FOR THE RECORD I am a member of team wikileaks ain't got shit, or if they do it's some weird complicated thing that will require a corkboard, a mile of yarn, and about 100 pushpins to explain. Like if there's anything it's some Diet Benghazi level sauce.
posted by chrchr at 11:03 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]




Mod note: DO NOT use the edit function to add substantial content to your comment, especially not incredibly racist content. Poster given the day off while we look at it, everyone else, PLEASE FLAG, I didn't see it in real time because of the edit window shenanigans.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 11:06 PM on October 1, 2016 [15 favorites]


Again, if there is more hacked stuff, the Clinton team is aware of what it might be and is surely prepared for it. In fact, they've had months to prepare for it. It's either more Bullshit that only true believers will care about our is something minor that Wikileaks thinks is a major. Plus, this is Roger "banned from news stations for lying" Stone we're talking about. Not to get all argumentun ad hominem here, but consider the source.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:23 PM on October 1, 2016 [6 favorites]


So if he was able to use that massive $0.9B write-off to avoid paying taxes for 18 years, that means he started his campaign at around the same time that sweet, sweet 0% rate was running out.
posted by monospace at 11:26 PM on October 1, 2016 [24 favorites]


This is one of the saddest and most touching pieces on the election I've read, and it's worth your time. Equal parts compassionate, heartbreaking, and terrifying.

It's a bookend to the piece on the Georgia open carry bloke. Common strands: disability and pain and excruciating amounts of time on your hands and conspiracy websites and social media to fill the gaps. Like I said when the first piece came out, the internet means you never have to be alone in your beliefs and emotions, even though it might be better if you were.
posted by holgate at 11:30 PM on October 1, 2016 [12 favorites]


though I worried (wrongly?) they'd used illegal access at IRS to get it.

Yes, wrongly.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:41 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: @BarackObama who wants to raise all our taxes, only pays 20.5% on $790k salary. http://1.usa.gov/HFZJKH Do as I say not as I do.
posted by chris24 at 11:47 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


What on earth does he even mean by that?
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:48 PM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Barack Obama paid $160,000 more in taxes last year than I have for the previous two decades combined! Also I don't understand marginal tax rates."
posted by KathrynT at 11:53 PM on October 1, 2016 [36 favorites]


I'm surprised he's aware of how little presidents get paid, to be honest.
posted by peppermind at 11:55 PM on October 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Sorry, I meant to link it. It's a text from 2012 showing his hypocrisy on taxes.

Here's a bunch more Trump tweets calling out people for not paying taxes.
posted by chris24 at 11:57 PM on October 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


@ForecasterEnten: My guess is that Trump could get this tax story out of the press if he finally shoots someone on 5th ave.
posted by chris24 at 12:00 AM on October 2, 2016 [22 favorites]


The President's tax returns are the most utterly boring such document imaginable, as he's purposely kept his finances squeaky clean. His tax rate is low because he donated 22% of his AGI to charity, as Trump's own link points out. President Obama also doesn't make a $790k salary; the President makes $400,000/year (plus some nontaxable expense and travel accounts). The rest of the difference is largely royalties from his book, and a subtraction for retirement contributions.

In short, President Obama is a particularly bad example for someone who has a multi-thousand page tax return and doesn't donate to charity to point to.
posted by zachlipton at 12:00 AM on October 2, 2016 [30 favorites]


A great comment on the NYT piece:
Donald Trump is a deadbeat. He drives on roads paid for by teachers and mocks an army paid for by secretaries. He's a freeloader complaining about his free meal, pure and simple.

posted by localhuman at 12:05 AM on October 2, 2016 [127 favorites]


It's 3 am, has he tweeted anything?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:08 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


Larry David as Sen. Sanders on SNL (Family Feud) about supporting Hillary Clinton: "She might not seem that appetizing, but if you don't take her now, you're going to be clogged with crap for a very long time."

And for a joke that didn't quite land, on Jill Stein: "For someone who cares about the environment, she sure doesn't care about asking people to throw their votes away."

The whole sketch is pretty good, they even threw in a fake Lin-Manuel Miranda, Chris Christie cracking bridge jokes, and Putin. And the real LMM is supposed to be on SNL next week.
posted by zachlipton at 12:09 AM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


He hasn't tweeted in 10 hours! Sad!
posted by Justinian at 12:09 AM on October 2, 2016


They've definitely taken all the phones out of arm's reach. I wonder which phone will be the first to tweet, the iPhone or the Android?
posted by palomar at 12:11 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


So--there are two possibilities, seems like, if there's anything to the Wikileaks thing at all. One, it's something Hillary didn't know about herself at any point, at which point the best you get is "why didn't she know this was happening", but the real malfeasance is someone else's and it doesn't have a lot of pull. The second option is that if she did something that explosive, she knows damn well what she's done, and she's had this long to prepare, because they keep announcing that they're going to drop bombshells well in advance. If she has done something career-destroying, why was she not the slightest bit afraid of it coming out at the debate? Or any other time. You can watch it the whole time, she is definitely not standing up there dreading his next answer. We're supposed to believe she's a complete cartoon villain at this point.

I'm going to bet that what they have is something incredibly minor that they think will sound good if a single sentence of it is repeated in every piece of media people see for a week, but that will have very few teeth if viewed in context. They have to hype it up ahead of time for it to mean anything. If it was real, they wouldn't announce it ahead of time.
posted by Sequence at 12:20 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


In short, President Obama is a particularly bad example for someone who has a multi-thousand page tax return and doesn't donate to charity to point to.

oh, I beg to differ. In my view, the President is a spectacular best-case, an actual moon-shot role model. If only all multi-thousand-page non-donaters were to undergo similar public scutiny.
posted by mwhybark at 12:25 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


Larry David as Sen. Sanders on SNL (Family Feud) about supporting Hillary Clinton: "She might not seem that appetizing, but if you don't take her now, you're going to be clogged with crap for a very long time."


I botched the joke. Please add "Senator Clinton is the prune juice of this election" to the start of this so it at least makes some degree of sense. It requires Larry David's delivery to be remotely amusing.
posted by zachlipton at 12:38 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Roger Stone may be smart enough to keep Trump in the dark. Sadly. Could be bullshit to try to distract from the NYT tax story hitting the papers tomorrow. Could be the real thing. We'll see.

This particular stopped clock was 0/4 on the last allegations, so I'm not too worried.


During the live teleconference, Stone falsely claimed Clinton was “quite clearly operating with an earpiece” to receive answers to questions during the September 26 presidential debate because “she can’t remember anything.”

Stone warned his listeners that Clinton may rig voting machines to defeat Trump.

Stone Called Billionaire George Soros A “Nazi War Criminal”

Stone Doubted CIA Reports On Russian Hackers And Claimed CIA Director Works For Clinton’s Campaign

posted by sebastienbailard at 1:00 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


My prediction for Wikileaks:

OMG WE FOUND 20 MORE EMAILS! IN ONE OF THEM, HILLARY IS OFFERED MILLIONS BY A NIGERIAN PRINCE!
posted by mmoncur at 1:17 AM on October 2, 2016 [24 favorites]


No, no. It's that she was begged repeatedly for help by a desperate Nigerian prince and yet she ignored his pleas, just like Benghazi.

(In full honesty, I've heard this line somewhere in the past week, but after a reasonably diligent search, I can't attribute it, and a couple people have made versions of it over the past few months).
posted by zachlipton at 1:27 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's 3 am, has he tweeted anything?

I like to think that he was awake, and wanted to say something nasty, but HRC's "It's 3:20am, as good a time as any to talk about national service " tweet is getting under his skin.
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:55 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


So let's say you're Roger Stone Jr., and you want a smoking gun, and you have the resources that come with you (or a friend) humping Vladimir Putin's leg. What's to stop a would be Tom Clancy at Putin's FSB from just writing his own scandal? I mean, if you have a ton of hacked e-mails you wouldn't have to insert much. A double handful of tantalizing hints here and there and one or two major reveals from the key players you want to discredit.

Sure the targets would have all kinds of "evidence" that it wasn't true, but if your goal is to create doubt....

Are we that post modern yet?
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 3:57 AM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think Roger Stone is, as usual, full of shit, but I'm curious about the alternative. Is he claiming he's colluding with wikileaks? Otherwise, how would he know what they were about to drop?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:02 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


No, no, I know a guy who's nephew once met a guy who knows Roger Stone, and he says the revelation is big, yuge even! Evidently in one of the emails Hillary admitted to being the mastermind behind one of the major scandals of the Bill Clinton presidency. I dearly hope it isn't true since I don't want to see a president Trump, but I hear Hillary was the one to give the order to remove all the "W"s from the Whitehouse keyboards! I don't think there'll be any coming back from this one. If it's true, it's over.

[probably fake, but who knows really?]

Seriously though, what could they reveal at this point which could possibly make Clinton seem less fit for the presidency than Donald? Other than claiming Hillary is cheating on Bill with Donald I can't see anything reasonable that they could pull out of their asses this late in the game that would change things. But I suppose I shouldn't tempt the perverse gods of 2016 to prove me wrong on that...
posted by gusottertrout at 4:18 AM on October 2, 2016


@realDonaldTrump: I know our complex tax laws better than anyone who has ever run for president and am the only one who can fix them. #failing@nytimes
posted by ymgve at 4:36 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think the worm has turned at the Washington Post. Their coverage of Trump's Sat night rally in Pa goes straight to calling it the sideshow that it is. They walk through his attack on Clinton over the basement-dwellers comment showing how he can't even get out of his own way to make hay out of his only "good" news this week.

As news of Trump’s taxes broke, he goes off script at a rally in Pennsylvania:
MANHEIM, Pa. — Donald Trump's campaign announced Saturday evening that the candidate would soon deliver a nine-sentence critique of comments Hillary Clinton made months ago about many of the millennials supporting her primary rival, Bernie Sanders. It was an attempt to latch onto a new headline in hopes of finally escaping the controversies that had consumed his week.

It didn’t work.

It took Trump nearly 25 minutes to read the brief statement because he kept going off on one angry tangent after another — ignoring his teleprompters and accusing Clinton of not being “loyal” to her husband, imitating her buckling at a memorial service last month, suggesting that she is “crazy” and saying she should be in prison. He urged his mostly white crowd of supporters to go to polling places in "certain areas" on Election Day to "watch" the voters there. He also repeatedly complained about having a "bum mic" at the first presidential debate and wondered if he should have done another season of “The Apprentice.”
It goes on and the whole thing is worth a read because this is the first time I've seen the Post make a complete, open-eyed account of all the words coming out of Trump's mouth at a rally. So far, the rally coverage has been bogged down on just one thing at a time, whether it's one crazy line, or someone getting punched, or whatever the distraction of the day is. This article is different because it provides a full list of all the awkward and counterproductive off-prompter remarks he interjects blunting his message. It's the first time I've seen The Post say, "take a good look at what passes for politicking for Trump." Then it brings up the tax leak showing that he's losing at shadow boxing instead of responding to real campaign issues.

But the thing is to me, and I'm watching the rally now (youtube link), it's no more crazy or unhinged than usual. Sure, it's been a pretty sedate six weeks as Trump has mostly stuck to the teleprompter since the fall of Manafort, but this rally is considerably less of a nut-bar performance than back before Conway and Bannon took the helm. I guess the stakes are higher now, but Clinton's performance on Monday has really changed the tone of news coverage.

Also, if you want to see him mock Clinton's fainting spell, here it is on youtube. Sad.
posted by peeedro at 4:39 AM on October 2, 2016 [41 favorites]


“How many people have acid-washed or bleached a tweet?” Trump asked the crowd. “How many? That you deleted? So you deleted it but that’s not good enough. No, this is crazy. Our country is becoming a third-world country.”

...what?
posted by enn at 4:49 AM on October 2, 2016 [40 favorites]


Roger Stone and Info Wars have been collaborating with Assange on the next dump. Some reporting from a presumably right wing site suggests it could involve Huma Abedin and the Clinton Foundation; whether there's any real substance to that dump or not, the GOP folk presumably want to make enough of a noise for it to matter.
posted by the cydonian at 4:50 AM on October 2, 2016


...what?

In the right-wing news bubble, there is outrage that Clinton not only deleted her email, but "acid-washed" it. From factcheck.org: "The FBI said Clinton’s tech team used BleachBit, which is a free software program. It does not use chemicals." The cyber can be complicated.
posted by peeedro at 4:54 AM on October 2, 2016 [15 favorites]


Acid-washed tweets are so '90s.
posted by krinklyfig at 4:55 AM on October 2, 2016 [35 favorites]


the cydonian: "Roger Stone and Info Wars have been collaborating with Assange on the next dump."

I'm not exactly sure what this brain trust will come up with, but when I try to imagine it I keep picturing them working together in, say, Assange's apartment at the embassy, these major conspiratorial personalities all in one room, papers strewn everywhere, "doing srs campaign bsns," which always devolves into clashes of egos and 3 Stooges style slapstick.
posted by krinklyfig at 5:10 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've been wrong before, but if that's the big email dump then it smells like we're having nothingburgers again for lunch.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:25 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


As news of Trump’s taxes broke, he goes off script at a rally in Pennsylvania

FTA:
Trump yelled at the media to show his crowd, which he said would make for “better television,” pledged to win Pennsylvania and called supporters of international trade “blood suckers.”
Oh, look, dark mutterings about the media and an international conspiracy of "blood suckers" stealing money, the exact accusations the Nazis leveled against Jews in the 1930s. I'm sure it's totally accidental. Sure.

Roger Stone and Info Wars have been collaborating with Assange on the next dump. Some reporting from a presumably right wing site suggests it could involve Huma Abedin and the Clinton Foundation

Assange doesn't actually sound all that sure that they're devastating:
On Wednesday, Assange was asked by Fox News if the information could affect the outcome of the election.

“I think it’s significant,” he replied. “You know, it depends on how it catches fire in the public and in the media.”
That's a not-particularly-confident statement that makes it sound like it'll play well with the base but have a hard time catching on with anybody else. Which makes it the same as all the other "bombshells" that have come out. They've also started leaking info from personal e-mail accounts, which could have a lot of blowback.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:28 AM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]


Considering the amount of hype leading up to this supposed leak, it's gonna have to be yuge or else it will fall totally flat. On the other hand, if it were really such a massive deal, none of this telegraphing would be necessary. The more Wikileaks et al build this up, the less worried I am.

Also, as regards Assange specifically, he'd better hope this leak is everything he's saying it will be. If it isn't something truly terrible, something that he had an obvious moral duty to reveal, he will have destroyed his last shred of credibility as both a whistleblower and a human being.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:29 AM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]


I have to wonder what's going through Mike Pence's mind these days. Shrewd calculations for declaring Trump unfit at some point and becoming the candidate? Or the self-soothing thought that if he just keeps his head down, this painful chapter will be over soon?
posted by GrammarMoses at 5:43 AM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


From the New York Times article:
“He has a vast benefit from his destruction” in the early 1990s, said one of the experts, Joel Rosenfeld, an assistant professor at New York University’s Schack Institute of Real Estate.
That quote perfectly encapsulates how I feel about Mr. Trump's campaign and this entire election cycle.
posted by Fizz at 5:48 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


In re Assange: look, people have been investigating the Clintons with hostile intent for better than 20 years. And, like her or not, Clinton isn't stupid or incompetent - it's hard to believe that there's a bunch of non-forged material documenting major wrongdoing. The emails were basically a bunch of garbage, like every other scandal - they showed nothing any different from any major political figure. And I bet whatever Assange has is the same.

As to Assange, he's a disgrace to wikileaks. He is a smarter version of a 4chan troll, only he's played the left, and we can all see in his fanatical desire to bring us a Trump presidency that his politics are garbage.
posted by Frowner at 5:52 AM on October 2, 2016 [40 favorites]


I think I would have preferred it if we were the ones with the vast benefit from his destruction in the early 1990s.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 5:52 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


NY Times: Trump may not have paid taxes for 18 years
USA TODAY-1 hour ago

'NYT' Report: Trump's Tax Records Show He May Not Have Owed ...
NPR-2 hours ago

("May not have *owed*, NPR? That's your angle? God you suck.)

Donald Trump's Tax Returns - You Make $ Billion Loss You Get A ...
In-Depth-Forbes-3 hours ago

Steven Weisman: Americans don't mind paying taxes, but they want ...
Opinion-Salt Lake Tribune-20 hours ago

Bombshell report on Trump taxes sends GOP nominee reeling
In-Depth-Politico-8 hours ago


*cues Reelin' In the Years, makes sandwich*
posted by petebest at 6:00 AM on October 2, 2016 [9 favorites]


Early morning bean plating cause it's Sunday and I have a big mug of coffee:

So who released the tax forms? I've been pondering why just 1995. Why did this person only send this one year. Simple explanation is that they only have access to those ones. But that's also kinda weird. Why only have access to this one year? So if this is the explanation then it someone who would only have 1995.

Or the person does have access to more but decided on 1995 in particular because it showed exactly what they knew would cause a furor (him not paying taxes) and it showed the 900 million in one year business loss which looks bad on Mr 'I'm the best business man" Trump. So far it's playing out twofold and it's kinda awesome.
Trump supporters and maybe just other business people, "Not paying taxes because of loss is totally legal and totally normal. He would be a bad business guy if he didn't do this." Answer from people : "I'm more concerned about losing 900 million in one year. And this is the dude you want running things? This is what being good at running a business is? "

Another reason, the person really understands Trump and just how much he would loathe the world finding out about him losing almost a billion dollars in one year and that's another reason why they picked this specific year.
Potential extra bonus : Perhaps there is more and the person knows that if people dig more into what was going in 1995 to explain such a loss it's going to bring even more negative stuff to light.

Anyways I hope at some point in the future we will find out who it was. As soon as it's safer for them because right now I expect there is a witch hunt happening.
posted by Jalliah at 6:07 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


so I, too, am really happy about the tax returns, but here's a little anecdote for y'all.

In my writer's group, somebody had decided to put in their thing a line that was, to paraphrase, *If a man in a wheelchair can win a gold medal, then I can climb this tree*

So as I sat in the wheelchair, I was like all, sorry, this is harsh, but you know, in our culture wheelchairs signify helplessness and lack of ability and it when I come across this in text, it's like a fist to the face.

And this other critique guy was all *yeah, if you're trying to be PC*

as a white girl, I have a certain privilege that I guess has lead to this mindset: if I explain, with all the diplomacy I can muster, that some words can hurt because they support ideas that are actively hurtful to me, no dude is going to explain to me that I'm a member of the PC police.

But apparently I'm wrong.

And also, Donald? I dare you to come to my house for a fight. You and me. Mano a mano. You can stand up, you can use your legs. And you will find that this crippled chick is a bad mother fucker and by the way asshole your ass is getting whupped in this election by yet another bad ass chick and all of your little ridiculous mime shows ridiculing the disabled are not going to save you if you actually meet me in a dark alley.
posted by angrycat at 6:15 AM on October 2, 2016 [79 favorites]


I've been pondering why just 1995. Why did this person only send this one year.

Also worth noting that publishing unauthorized tax returns is a felony, maybe it was a test to see if journalists were serious about taking a risk in publishing before handing over even more documents.
posted by peeedro at 6:17 AM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]


Apparently Rudy Giuliani's line on Meet the Press is that "great men have big failures." You stick with that, Rudy. I am entirely fine with Trump's surrogates talking about the size of his failures.

Yeah, I read that Washington Post article, too. For people who can't/ don't read Wapo articles, the upshot is that it's illegal to publish tax returns without people's consent. The editor of the New York Times said previously that if he got Trump's tax returns he would publish them, even if he had to go against the advice of the paper's lawyers and even if it meant going to jail. And it might. The paper can make a first-amendment defense, but there's no telling whether it will work.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:20 AM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


Also worth noting that publishing unauthorized tax returns is a felony, maybe it was a test to see if journalists were serious about taking a risk in publishing before handing over even more documents.

Hadn't thought of that. *adds to list of points to ponder*
posted by Jalliah at 6:21 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Mod note: Characterizing someone saying Assange might "lose credibility" as the same as advocating for his execution is straight up trolling and not okay. Deleted, and take some time off.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:21 AM on October 2, 2016 [14 favorites]


From the Washington Post article Peeedro linked to above:
Through an attorney, the famously litigious Trump already has threatened "prompt initiation of appropriate legal action" against the Times. Washington Post associate editor Bob Woodward, who joined Baquet on the Harvard panel and also said he would risk jail to publish Trump's tax returns, joked during the talk that in the event of a criminal conviction, perhaps everyone in the newsroom could serve one day of the sentence.
Ha!
posted by Fizz at 6:24 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


The editor of the New York Times said previously that if he got Trump's tax returns he would publish them, even if he had to go against the advice of the paper's lawyers and even if it meant going to jail. And it might. The paper can make a first-amendment defense, but there's no telling whether it will work.

I *refuse* to be sympathetic to the NYT, but damnit they're making it hard...
posted by mikelieman at 6:24 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wouldn't it be great if this led to a grassroots demand for corporate tax reform?
posted by Kitty Stardust at 6:24 AM on October 2, 2016 [44 favorites]


Oh, and can we put to bed this idea that Trump's taxes somehow show that he's a tax-dodging genius who can fix the tax code? I'm sure that his accountants are very smart, but you don't get but so many genius points for hiring good accountants. I am 100% confident that the bathrooms at Mar-a-Lago are spotless, but I wouldn't hire Trump to tell me how to clean my house.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:26 AM on October 2, 2016 [26 favorites]


Forbes goes way out of the narrative to mansplain that of course corporate taxes are cumulative. Nothing to see here! (Forbes - I don't like you.)

Phil Helsel at NBC allows Trump's lie about having any intentions whatsoever to "fix" tax law in a way that doesn't benefit himself solely and completely. Then drops this steamer,

"Clinton at the debate suggested the returns might show Trump hasn't paid any federal taxes, which Trump did not address."

Ah, he absolutely DID address that, stating, quote, "That makes me smart." Are you new here, Phil? I'm pretty sure the debate is available for viewing during Internet hours. Check it out.

Meanwhile at America's McNewspaper, USA Today, the story is lovingly battered in sugar and cornmeal before being front-loaded with all of Trump's denials and misdirections. Followed by a few slices of fact. What are the fist hour of USA 2day commenters saying? Well, pull down the blast shield and let's see. After some standard nuh-uh / yeah-huhs, we get this gem:

Betty Highland
Owner at Self-Employed
Barry Gold I would be happy to wager that Trump has generated more income, employed more folks, paid more taxes, and donated more to charities using his own ingenuity creating product than Hillary Clinton. What product have the Clintons designed and sold which by doing so put folks to work? Answer: None. By the way, I am not a Trump supporter either, but I do understand what makes America great


Yes certainly Hillary lags behind at "creating product". Sick burn, Betty! Please note Betty is *not* a Trump supporter. (?)
posted by petebest at 6:31 AM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


$10 says Betty's "Self-Employed" = MLM
posted by argybarg at 6:33 AM on October 2, 2016 [14 favorites]


Slapping your name on a box of steak isn't "creating product". And as always, I got $100 US dollars on Hillary Clinton if any Trump supporters feel confident enough in their candidate to match my wager.
posted by mikelieman at 6:33 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm standing in front of a strip mall in Cambridge waiting to head up to New Hampshire and canvass. There's at least 20 people here. I'm terrified. Wish me luck.
posted by pxe2000 at 6:34 AM on October 2, 2016 [80 favorites]


Good luck, pxe2000. And good for you. I did some voter registration - it was less scary (though more boring) than I thought it would be.
posted by still_wears_a_hat at 6:36 AM on October 2, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'm standing in front of a strip mall in Cambridge waiting to head up to New Hampshire and canvass. There's at least 20 people here. I'm terrified. Wish me luck.

Are you going to Nashua? I might head up there this afternoon to punch in the canvassing results.
posted by Talez at 6:37 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


Go get 'em pxe2000! Zig for great justice!
posted by petebest at 6:37 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


You can do it, pxe2000! Report back at the end of the day, OK?
posted by Sublimity at 6:37 AM on October 2, 2016


Wouldn't it be great if this led to a grassroots demand for corporate tax reform?

It is a really great, real world, relevant and simplified example of some of the issues with the tax code and the rich.

Super rich guy.
Loses 900 million in one year.
That means he doesn't have to pay income tax for years.
Still gets to stay rich and keep all his things.

What? This is legal? How is this fair?

Bonus points that makes it seem even worse and unfair
Rich guy:
Brags about being rich
Says he's smart to do this in a condescending manner (everyone else is stupid)
Regularly complains about things that taxes pay for. Things that he hasn't paid for.
Is calling for tax cuts for rich people like him.
posted by Jalliah at 6:38 AM on October 2, 2016 [20 favorites]


Add to that:

Tweet-shames non-rich Americans who don't pay taxes.

It's smart when he fails and doesn't have to pay any taxes, but you're a parasite if you get laid off and don't pay any taxes.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:41 AM on October 2, 2016 [23 favorites]


"How did Donnie lose 900 million and not lose his house?"
posted by mikelieman at 6:45 AM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]


"How did Donnie lose 900 million and not lose his house?"

“I just hop on over to the Casino I recently built that went bankrupt and borrow the money from myself. Problem solved. I'm great at solving budgetary issues. I don't know why people are always so worried about their finances.”
posted by Fizz at 6:47 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: "@trumplican2016: .@realDonaldTrump There will be MASSIVE turnout for you, Mr. Trump - These polls don't register the pulse of the PEOPLE!

Let the unskewing begin!
posted by chris24 at 6:48 AM on October 2, 2016


"There it is," said campaign manager Robby Mook. . . In one year, Donald Trump lost nearly a billion dollars. A billion. He stiffed small businesses, laid off workers, and walked away from hardworking communities. And how did it work out for him? He apparently got to avoid paying taxes for nearly two decades -- while tens of millions of working families paid theirs. He calls that 'smart.'"

Concludes Mook, "Now that the gig is up, why doesn't he go ahead and release his returns to show us all how 'smart' he really is?"


ssssssssssnnnnnnnnnnnaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap
posted by petebest at 6:48 AM on October 2, 2016 [62 favorites]


Tweet-shames non-rich Americans who don't pay taxes.

Good gawd. He's so loathsome and stupid.

"I'm just like half of Americans who don't pay taxes either because they suck."

This is not the argument you really want to be making Donald. Kinda show you as part of an issue that many would think is more problem then a positive.
posted by Jalliah at 6:48 AM on October 2, 2016


So--there are two possibilities, seems like, if there's anything to the Wikileaks thing at all. One, it's something Hillary didn't know about herself at any point, at which point the best you get is "why didn't she know this was happening", but the real malfeasance is someone else's and it doesn't have a lot of pull. The second option is that if she did something that explosive, she knows damn well what she's done, and she's had this long to prepare, because they keep announcing that they're going to drop bombshells well in advance.

Third possibility - it's actually about another thing Bill did during his administration, and can easily be handled by a polite statement that "that was my husband. I am a different person."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:49 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think that's the takeaway here. Not that he used Rich-Peoples-Loopholes to evade taxes, it's that he lost $900 million in the go-go years of the nineties from failing at owning casinos. That's his "I'm a businessman" cred shattered right there.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 6:51 AM on October 2, 2016 [16 favorites]



I think that's the takeaway here. Not that he used Rich-Peoples-Loopholes to evade taxes, it's that he lost $900 million in the go-go years of the nineties from failing at owning casinos. That's his "I'm a businessman" cred shattered right there.

It's both. It's the Doublemint of a tax return. "Double Your Pleasure, Double Your Fun"
posted by Jalliah at 6:54 AM on October 2, 2016 [9 favorites]


Meanwhile at America's McNewspaper, USA Today, the story is lovingly battered in sugar and cornmeal before being front-loaded with all of Trump's denials and misdirections. Followed by a few slices of fact.

it is Sunday morning and that is not how you make French Toast.
posted by indubitable at 6:55 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


pxe2000: I'm terrified. Wish me luck.

I'm wishing you so much luck that you're going to get tired of having luck. Believe me.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:56 AM on October 2, 2016 [29 favorites]


Watching the SNL opener now ('cause I'm too old to stay up past 11) and McKinnon kills it. Her facial expressions while Baldwin/Trump is talking are exactly how I think Clinton was dying to respond while she was struggling to keep a straight face.
posted by octothorpe at 6:56 AM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


Both Giuliani and Christie are on the Sunday talk shows spinning this as how much of a "genius" (their words!) Trump is at tax reform.

Meanwhile, in the sane neck of the woods, Sanders said that Clinton's description from the leaked tape of his supporters is accurate, which should hopefully shut down both the "why isn't he helping her/taking her side/speaking up?" and "OMG she's so horrible because she called millenials basement dwellers!" nonsense
posted by zombieflanders at 6:58 AM on October 2, 2016 [9 favorites]


Also worth noting that publishing unauthorized tax returns is a felony,...


Perhaps, but it might also be a great opportunity to use the Trump defense:

"I was just trying to be sarcastic/funny when I made up those returns! Geez, Louise, can't you guys take a JOKE?"

And them let them argue that they're the real thing...
posted by sour cream at 7:00 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Alec Baldwin killed it too. I take some pleasure in knowing that Trump is going to see it and add another loop to his internal rage cycle. I expect him to lash out on Twitter at Baldwin any minute now.
posted by argybarg at 7:01 AM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


You know, it's a really big deal that this tax info was released, and also that it is a huge risk on behalf of the people who made it available and published it. Undoubtedly it's going to be pursued legally and some people are going to deal with serious legal consequences as a result.

Whoever you are: thank you for being brave enough to do this and to undertake those risks. Lots of people want to do whatever they can (short of bloodshed) to prevent this terrible man from becoming president but don't have the access and ability to do what you did.
posted by Sublimity at 7:01 AM on October 2, 2016 [128 favorites]


If, for some reason, you could only risk getting one tax return to the NYT, this is a great one: Trump as massive business failure, Trump as tax avoider. And if he thinks that's not a fair picture he can release the rest whenever he wants.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:02 AM on October 2, 2016 [16 favorites]


@samsteinhp: ABC/WAPO Poll: 53 percent of adults say Clinton won the debate, while just 18 percent say Trump won

The details of the near record poll trouncing.
posted by chris24 at 7:03 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's amazing that )adjusting for inflation) last year, the entire Nevada casino industry lost well south of half as much as Trump alone did in 1995.

I assume it's been audited, but damn, 900M in 1995 sure sounds like it had to have been padded by a zero or two. And we know how loose Donny is with other easily verifiable facts ...
posted by Dashy at 7:03 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Both Giuliani and Christie are on the Sunday talk shows spinning this as how much of a "genius" (their words!) Trump is at tax reform.

These are elected officials who hold/held political offices and responsibilities for many hundreds and thousands of people. I have no words.....

So here is a small list of .gifs that relate how I am currently feeling. Feel free to use them at your leisure.

dumpster-fire.gif
throwscomputeragainstwall.gif
idontwanttoliveonthisplanetanymore.gif
cryingdoctorwho.gif
angryjack.gif

posted by Fizz at 7:04 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


I recommend checking out the link from kirkaracha in this comment.

It's the second embedded YouTube clip that, to me, is fascinating.

Spoilers below. Bill Maher says (and it is almost certainly more funny to here him say it than via transcript):
In fact, [Cohen’s] the head lawyer at the Trump Organization. So we know he’s awfully busy with lawsuits—like the one that Trump filed against me in 2013,” said Maher. “Remember that lawsuit? OK, a lot of people remember that as a defamation suit. It wasn’t! He was suing me to collect five million dollars because I offered that to him if he could prove that his mother didn’t in fact fuck an ape!”

“So, he went into court. This happened! He went into court and produced his birth certificate as if it was going to say ‘orangutan’ on it. Yes, I made Donald Trump produce his birth certificate, and I’m very proud of that… very proud of that!
First, how did I miss that Bill Maher asked for proof that Donald's mom did not fuck an ape?

Second, and way more important, Trump actually sued to get the 5 million dollars? He actually went to court (or had someone in proxy) say "My mom didn't fuck an ape. Give me money!" This is someone who could be President? That is disturbing on so many levels.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:09 AM on October 2, 2016 [42 favorites]


For the holdouts that may not believe Sanders defended Clinton on her millennials comments, here's the video:
@ThisWeekABC: .@BernieSanders on leaked Clinton audio about his supporters: “What she was saying there is absolutely correct”
posted by zombieflanders at 7:10 AM on October 2, 2016 [25 favorites]


Boy is Trump all in on demonstrating the need for confiscatory estate taxes.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:11 AM on October 2, 2016 [41 favorites]


I really wish NYT had sat on this for another 36 hrs. Breaking on a Saturday night, not so much.

I disagree. This way we get an entire day of Trump melting down about it to discuss on the Sunday shows, which will give the story legs -- much like the Machado debacle -- going into Monday by fitting the narrative of "Trump blows up in response to yet another setback.
posted by Gelatin at 7:11 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


pxe2000 - I'm sitting here at my computer feeling pretty terrified about phonebanking. I keep telling myself it's for the good of all that I get over my phone anxiety. And thanks to you and the other mefites who've volunteered and shared their experiences, I am gonna do it. (Deep breath.)

(Also, it is clearly for the good of all that you've gone to canvas, thank you! And good luck!)

[a few minutes later]
Ok, I did it! Well, I made a few calls anyhow, so far haven't spoken with anyone in person (just voicemail and some no answers).

So pxe2000- you already got someone to be useful for the campaign (me). I'm sure you'll have good luck with doing more!
posted by nat at 7:12 AM on October 2, 2016 [34 favorites]


900M in 1995 sure sounds like it had to have been padded by a zero or two.

Any normal candidate would have put that out as a second, or third line of defense, or a rumor or something, right?

Nnnnnnope. Let Trump get Trumpy. "I am a tax god! So smart, with the failing. So smart."
posted by petebest at 7:13 AM on October 2, 2016


Interesting article that gets more into his likely business strategy and it's not so good from what I can gather. Even if it is legal.

From the Wall Street Journal: Donald Trump’s Tax Numbers Tighten Focus on Treatment of Losses

Mr. Trump had a series of business failings in the late 1980s and early 1990s in the casino industry and other ventures, followed by more-recent success on television along with his hotel and golf-course operations.

The U.S. taxes income, not wealth, and savvy taxpayers often try to avoid reporting much of the former while generating the latter. They are usually not trying to do so, however, by actually losing money.


.........

It can be smart to avoid paying taxes if you’re using tax breaks encouraged by the government or exploiting gaps in the system. It isn’t necessarily smart if a $0 tax bill results from actually losing money or not following the law.

“Really bad business decisions, like losing money in the casino business, generate real economic loss,” said David Herzig, a tax-law professor at Valparaiso University. “These losses are not ‘gold’ but the real loss of gold,” he said.

posted by Jalliah at 7:14 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


@christinawilkie: Christie: Not paying taxes proves "the genius of Donald Trump."

@rickklein: Giuliani on Trump taxes: "My response is, he's a genius." #ThisWeek

So they're really going with he's a genius, the rest of us are chumps and idiots.

'Taxes are for suckers' seems a helluva strategy.
posted by chris24 at 7:15 AM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]


Rich-Peoples-Loopholes

How does something like this get put into the tax code? With a straight face, I mean.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:18 AM on October 2, 2016


"'Taxes are for suckers' seems a helluva strategy."

The art of the "double down".
posted by klarck at 7:18 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


First, how did I miss that Bill Maher asked for proof that Donald's mom did not fuck an ape?

Second, and way more important, Trump actually sued to get the 5 million dollars? He actually went to court (or had someone in proxy) say "My mom didn't fuck an ape. Give me money!" This is someone who could be President? That is disturbing on so many levels.


..........

Is there no bottom to the absurdity of this man? This is real? I know, I know it's Trump we're talking about but.... I got nothing.
posted by Jalliah at 7:20 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


A clever ABC news commenter makes a connection . .

Show meee . . "Leona Helmsley"!

*ding*

Good answer! Good answer!
posted by petebest at 7:22 AM on October 2, 2016 [9 favorites]


So they're really going with he's a genius, the rest of us are chumps and idiots.

Steve Martin: First you make a million dollars, then you don't pay taxes.

Donald Trump: First you lose a billion dollars, then you don't pay taxes.

Excuuuuuse me, but not much of a genius when compared to some guy who plays the banjo.
posted by peeedro at 7:24 AM on October 2, 2016 [15 favorites]


It takes a real genius to lose nearly a billion dollars. Donald Trump will bring that type of genius to the presidency.
posted by drezdn at 7:25 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


Now I want someone at the Townhall to ask a question about the tax code. Let's say something at the mid-to advanced level. Level 5-7 on the 1 - 10 scale of knowing about how taxes work. Something that an expert and genius would have no trouble answering. Let his genius at tax code shine forth. Shine, Donald, Shine.
posted by Jalliah at 7:27 AM on October 2, 2016 [24 favorites]


I suppose they have been waiting to have this leaked for some time now, and been planning how to spin it. Do his voters care? Anyone seen any polls?
posted by frumiousb at 7:29 AM on October 2, 2016


I've just been imaging what a hell-on-earth it would be to be one of Trump's accountants. First of all, I'm going to assume that the fugue of his narcissistic ego creates all sorts of craziness and ass-covering amongst his employees so that his business financials are a swamp of confusion. Which means that getting any concrete sense of what's going on is next to impossible. Then, once you've wrestled that in to some semblance of a legally-reportable format, you've got to go tell Trump what his bottomline is. Which in Trump's psychology is the equivalent of giving him a report card as to his worth as a human being. He has shown he reacts poorly to anything that he sees as a slight to his ego, so that's going to be a fun meeting.

There is no amount of money that could get me to take on that job.
posted by mcduff at 7:31 AM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]


It only came out last night so no polls. No his base won't care. It's no longer about his base they're a lost cause at this point. They're locked in.
posted by Jalliah at 7:32 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Caleb Crain: The nonpayment of taxes is just a flesh wound. The killing blow is a failure so colossal that 18 years later he still hasn't broken even.
posted by PenDevil at 7:32 AM on October 2, 2016 [39 favorites]


Jalliah, I would love to see that happen but looking at his voter base, I don't expect this to accomplish much. Those voters are already convinced that he is what they want in a President. So his lack of knowledge about how the tax code works in the United States probably won't make much of a dent. Besides, Trump will just bluster his way through that response and talk about how he'll have the best people working on the budget.

*sighs*
posted by Fizz at 7:33 AM on October 2, 2016


Ok I just realized I'm past caring what his base thinks. With W there was a sense that maybe they could be reached, that if we did a better job, that if we found the way to phrase it in their own vernacular, we could find some common ground and inch them away from their most reprehensible social positions. but this time...

I've given up. They ARE reprehensible.

Am I the only one that feels like this time is different?
posted by schadenfrau at 7:34 AM on October 2, 2016 [29 favorites]


For the record, Steve Martin is a legit genius. A comic genius.

WSJ commenter "greg mcelvy" makes a few good points- emphasis added:

The fundamental problem is that financial losses are supposed to be actual losses of money. If Trump took a billion dollar loss, he should have lost a billion dollars. In his Atlantic City investments somebody lost a lot of money. In all probability , it was the bondholders.

That means that Trump didn't really lose all that money. However he is personally taking the loss because he owned the business that borrowed the money. Maybe the covenant with the bondholders was such that they assumed all the risk and Trump got all of the rewards.

But we don't know that. That's because there is next to no information about Trump and his business dealings.

Folks , accounting isn't magic. Debits have to equal credits. Except that we don't know that because we have no information about how Trump keeps books. Bernie Madoff did the same thing. By publishing a false set of books he perpetrated an elaborate and costly fraud. Except Trump hasn't even done that. We have no sets of books at all.

posted by petebest at 7:35 AM on October 2, 2016 [79 favorites]


Honestly, last week's onslaught of trump news was so bad and so fast that I couldn't keep up, but even then I don't expect the polls to change.
posted by Dashy at 7:35 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


I was sure the Trump lawsuit over Maher's joke that he was half-orangtutan was not real. I underestimated Trump's pettiness. Reuters article from 2013 here.
posted by mcduff at 7:37 AM on October 2, 2016 [9 favorites]


Jalliah, I would love to see that happen but looking at his voter base, I don't expect this to accomplish much. Those voters are already convinced that he is what they want in a President. So his lack of knowledge about how the tax code works in the United States probably won't make much of a dent. Besides, Trump will just bluster his way through that response and talk about how he'll have the best people working on the budget.

It's not about his voter base. It's about the people that are wavering. It's about the 'hold my nose voters'.
His base is locked down. Nothing is going to persuade them and they are coming up with anything and everything to spin this.

For instance:
Did you know that this is a bogus story, because it's a illegal to publish them, so it means nothing, besides the media never published Obama's College Transcripts. Where are Obama's transcripts huh?


And from a purely strategic point of view the more time he and his base is on defense and quite frankly looking ridiculous takes time and energy away from focusing directly on Hillary. This is a good thing at this time in the election.
posted by Jalliah at 7:42 AM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]


If a lying, racist, moronic, wig-flapping, misogynistic windbag is *still* my Presidential candidate, I don't think "didn't pay taxes" will change much.

But if it's understood he's cheating the f*#k out of me, well, then I might just stay home on Nov. 8. Hmf.
posted by petebest at 7:43 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump's base is irrelevant. At this point, elections are about turnout. The question is whether this helps Clinton's turnout and suppresses Trump's. My guess would be that the answer to both would be yes, at least a little bit, but that's just a guess. I'm going out canvassing in a couple of hours, and I'll be curious to hear what people say about it.

Absentee ballots got mailed out here on Thursday, and I think they probably arrived yesterday. So today I'm probably going to be doing ballot chase: going to the doors of people who have requested absentee ballots and getting them to fill them out and hand them over to me. It'll be interesting to see if people are motivated to vote this morning because Trump is a dumpster fire.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:44 AM on October 2, 2016 [12 favorites]


Lol I am in line at Whole Foods and it is a Trump hatefest. Strangers telling strangers about his taxes, personal stories about him not paying contractors, it's amazing. I mean, yeah, it's Whole Foods, but lolololol
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:46 AM on October 2, 2016 [73 favorites]


I think a lot of yall are vastly overestimating how much attention the majority of America has paid to the race up to this point. Now is the time when many vaguely-engaged people are starting to check in. Of course I'm not talking about 'the base,' I'm talking about culturally republican people who don't follow politics closely but who do vote in presidential elections. People who are soft Rs because they're business owners or upper middle class or religious, but who may have already been feeling iffy on the direction the party has been taking. Those people exist and this story is for them, not 'the base'.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:48 AM on October 2, 2016 [34 favorites]


Am I the only one that feels like this time is different?

I have three old friends who are Trump voters. And the odd thing is that they don't really care that much for Trump. However, they are *convinced* Obama is both Muslim and probably not a citizen and they *HATE* Clinton. Any media source which does not reflect these realities is obviously corrupt, and they only read articles when they agree with their world view.

The biggest reason they would vote for Trump is that he's not a Washington insider. When asked why they hold HRC to one standard and Clinton to another, they answer: "Trump is so far a private citizen."

They might stay home and not vote, but if Clinton wins they will be furious and incoherent.
posted by frumiousb at 7:48 AM on October 2, 2016


Here is the thing I keep returning to with Donald Trump. And I know that policy matters most (and he's garbage on policy), but:

Does he have friends?

Does he laugh? I've never seen Donald Trump laugh.

Has he ever made an effort to do something good for any human being besides himself and his immediate family?

He may be, all in all, the most miserably unpleasant person I've ever laid eyes on. This can't be a coincidence. Something about people who are just raging cold sores -- they're fascinating. Somehow they make people respond.
posted by argybarg at 7:53 AM on October 2, 2016 [38 favorites]


Also worth noting that publishing unauthorized tax returns is a felony.

The federal law on leaks only applies to federal IRS returns. That may be why the NYT only published the state returns. They might still be sitting on the IRS return. That is not to say that there might be other state laws regarding leaking of state tax forms, but it wouldn't be a federal felony.
posted by JackFlash at 7:54 AM on October 2, 2016 [23 favorites]


I love that the candidate proudly ranting about hacked emails and voicemails is complaining about the taxes being illegally obtained.
posted by chris24 at 7:55 AM on October 2, 2016 [31 favorites]


So a friend's thread, one of his friends:
What morals does Hillary have?
My response:
I've thought a lot about this question. Hillary has done both good and bad things throughout her life. She was a Goldwater Girl (c/o her father's beliefs) who then liberalized, joined the Democrats, and became a third way centrist. She also orchestrated one of the single greatest federal efforts ever to make sure that poor children would receive some kind of health insurance. She seems to care deeply about constituents, she takes an active interest in their problems, she does her best to solve them and make incremental social progress when she has the ability.

Can I justify her being a perfect angel to everybody's standard of proof? Nope. And chances are there's probably some gish gallop that anyone can make in response to this post. And that's ok too because people will have their views. But in my eyes her achievements reflect well on her and her scandals are mostly a series of falsehoods, half-truths, and IOKIYAR. To me she's Leslie Knope personified.

One thing I can say for sure, she's a lot more moral than someone who says that losing nearly a billion dollars and not paying taxes is "smart". She's a lot more moral than someone willing to demonize my friends and neighbours while he and his crony friends have looted the country of its riches who are the people actually making everyone poorer. She's a lot more moral honoring her vows and standing by her man through affairs and indiscretions while Trump has five kids through three mothers.

So I probably can't convince you but that's ok. I probably will never be able to convinced that Trump will be an utter disaster for this country. But hey, ain't that America.
His followup:
She is par with trump at best. Man my answer was so much easier. Unfortunately you won't realize my view either. It is America and its great.
I probably wasted my time. But it's ok. I guess this is the base.
posted by Talez at 7:57 AM on October 2, 2016 [39 favorites]


The SNL cold open
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:58 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


Am I the only one that feels like this time is different?

No. I do.
I see this election as taking it right down to the foundation. It's stark. It's at the baseline. You're either racist or okay with it or not. You either think white people are better then everyone else or you don't. You're either sexist or are okay with blatant misogyny or you're not. On and on and on.
For years there has been more wiggle room. When it was mostly just dog whistling there was room for leaving the questions more open, people that may not be or support all those things still had a space where denial was possible.

I do hold a lot of empathy and compassion for people that are hurting. I even have empathy for people that have problems dealing with how things have changed and keep changing. I get that part of it. I get feeling disillusioned. This is I know lots of people including myself who have had hard times, been disillusioned and don't go, life sucks now I'm going to be an utter and complete asshole and get all excited and/or support race and gender based hate and division, let alone everything else Trump stands for.

I have no patience when it comes to this sort of foundational world view beliefs. People do or don't. These are not ideas or beliefs where there is room to compromise somehow.
posted by Jalliah at 7:58 AM on October 2, 2016 [31 favorites]


HALF of Americans don't pay income tax despite crippling govt debt...
-@realDonaldTrump, 23 Feb 2012


That is, of course, because a good percentage Americans don't make enough money to pay Federal income tax. It should be obvious by now that trickle down economics isn't the solution, it's the problem.
posted by Gelatin at 7:59 AM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


In an email on Saturday night, Goldburd clarified that Trump could be refunded for taxes paid in 1992 through 1994 (as explained by the Times), though he may have initially paid taxes in those years.

So he would get an instant (maybe not instant, but maybe he could have used it as collateral) liquidity injection as well as avoiding future taxes? Could it be this was the primary goal?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:59 AM on October 2, 2016


"My answer was so much easier." Boy, if that doesn't perfectly encapsulate the Trump supporter mindset...
posted by palomar at 8:00 AM on October 2, 2016 [36 favorites]


Does he laugh? I've never seen Donald Trump laugh.

Does Trump Know How to Laugh?
Trump has offered a vitriolic diagnosis of the state of affairs in the United States, and his ability to convincingly channel populist rage has gotten him very far. Almost to the top, in fact. But Americans are not a joyless people, and have—for the last quarter century, at least—elected men who could offer (however legitimately) some hope of good humor in the middle of chaos and complication. Trump has never offered this to the public, and Monday night found him on his biggest stage yet—still unable to wipe the scowl from his face, unswervingly furious about society’s miseries. It is hard to imagine the American public offering the next four years of leadership to a man so taken, so entirely consumed, with dark tragedy.
posted by peeedro at 8:04 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]




Trump's base is irrelevant. At this point, elections are about turnout.

The problem is, should Clinton win thanks to her vastly superior GOTV, Trump has been priming his base to believe in voter fraud. A new AP-NORC poll finds that half of Trump's supporters have little to no confidence that the vote count will be fair. (And I don't think they're worried about Russian hackers.)
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:04 AM on October 2, 2016


@KevinMKruse: If you lost a billion dollars running a casino but George Clooney and Brad Pitt weren't somehow involved, you're a *horrible* businessman.
posted by chris24 at 8:05 AM on October 2, 2016 [37 favorites]




Rick Hasen: Trump’s Irresponsible Vote-Rigging Statements Literally Putting Our Democracy at Risk
One of the things we take for granted is that even in tumultuous times when elections are hard fought, the losers concede the election and embrace the process, even if things did not go well. That’s what Al Gore did after the Supreme Court decided Bush v. Gore. He did not call for demonstrations in the streets, which could have been destabilizing. In 2008, after great controversy over the Bush years, Obama v. McCain was very hard fought, but we were able to come together again as a country. As I blogged on Inauguration Day in 2009:
Regardless of your politics, today is a day to celebrate the remarkable peaceful transitions to power that occur in this country with each presidential transition. It is something we should not take for granted.
Donald Trump threatens this peace by raising the prospect not only of sending his supporters, unsupervised, into polling places (likely in minority neighborhoods). This can lead to voter intimidation on election day. He has also backed off his earlier, somewhat ambiguous statement that he would support Hillary Clinton if she won.
Again, I place this firmly at the feet of the people who have been pushing lies about voter fraud while dismissing the overwhelming evidence of voter suppression, regardless of whether they support Trump or not.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:12 AM on October 2, 2016 [38 favorites]


@EWErickson: "To sum up: Republicans who, four years ago, blasted middle class voters for paying no taxes, are praising Trump for not paying taxes."

I despise Erick Erickson, but his NeverTrump stance has been solid.
posted by chris24 at 8:12 AM on October 2, 2016 [39 favorites]


Looks like nobody has mentioned this yet, but 1995 was the year Trump took his casino empire public to shift the mounting debt onto investors; before that he was personally guaranteeing all the loans, and on the hook for it himself. Article

The takeaway is not that he didn't pay taxes, but that losing this kind of money in the casino industry was the result of a string of extraordinarily poor, in some cases very stupid, business decisions, such as spending way too much on construction of the Taj Mahal for ego boost BS like gold plating and buying the Plaza which he just couldn't afford at the time. He also did not count on Mississippi legalizing gambling a few years earlier, which sucked a lot of the visitors from south of the Carolinas out of the AC market. That hit the whole AC market hard but Trump was already overextended.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:13 AM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm probably going to be doing ballot chase: going to the doors of people who have requested absentee ballots and getting them to fill them out and hand them over to me.

I didn't know this was a thing. The idea that people hand over their ballots to a random stranger at their door is unsettling.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 8:15 AM on October 2, 2016 [39 favorites]


The story about Trump that gets me is the one about how he hired a small catering company to cater his wedding and then, after the wedding was over, refused to pay them. He told the owner that she could tell everyone that she had catered Donald Trump's wedding, and that was payment enough. He told her that if she had a problem with that, she could sue him, but he had better lawyers than she did, and the lawsuit would bankrupt her. She talked to some lawyers, they said he was right, and so she never got paid. She didn't want to stiff her staff, so she paid them out of her own pocket as much as she could.

That's the kind of scum that Donald Trump is. That's the kind of trash. And if your friends are comfortable voting for that kind of person, then I think you need new friends.
The idea that people hand over their ballots to a random stranger at their door is unsettling.
Oh, I agree. It actually stressed me the fuck out. In my perfect world, we actually walk together to the mailbox, but a lot of people just want to give it to me and be done with it. I am very, very careful with ballots, I promise.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:17 AM on October 2, 2016 [91 favorites]


Another comment via the WSJ article:

. . . Trump used junk bonds to finance his Atlantic City investments. We also know that he took millions out in the form of management fees, special dividends, etc. In all likelihood he lost no equity. How do we know this. Because he bragged that he "did very well" in the casino debacle.

What is at stake here is whether the billion dollar loss was his to declare on his personal tax return. Maybe pass through rules allow this. However you must admit that he neither put $1 billion into the business and that he didn't lose a $1 billion. Yet he is taking a billion dollar loss.



From TFNYTA:
The tax experts consulted by The Times said the $916 million net operating loss declared by Mr. Trump in 1995 almost certainly included large net operating losses carried forward from the early 1990s, when most of Mr. Trump’s key holdings were hemorrhaging money.

Indeed, by 1990, his entire business empire was on the verge of collapse. In a few short years, he had amassed $3.4 billion in debt — personally guaranteeing $832 million of it — to assemble a portfolio that included three casinos and a hotel in Atlantic City, the Plaza Hotel in Manhattan, an airline and a huge yacht.


We call it ridin' the gravy traaaaaaaaiiiiiiin . .
posted by petebest at 8:18 AM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]


I assume that the absentee ballots being chased are mailed with security envelopes, like the ones in my state. If I handed my ballot off to someone at the door, I would be doing so with an envelope that is sealed and bears my signature on the outside, which can be compared to the signature on file with the election board if necessary. No less secure than handing it to a postal worker.
posted by palomar at 8:19 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wow, Jake Tapper going off at the end here on Giuliani trying to defend Trump saying Hillary wasn't loyal to Bill. (video)

Wow his disgust was just blatant.

I don't know Jake Tapper at all. Is this type of reaction something that is normal for him? My gut is saying that it seems that a lot more reporters and pundits are getting fed-up and showing it but that may just be wishful think on my part.
posted by Jalliah at 8:20 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]



Also worth noting that publishing unauthorized tax returns is a felony


I'm kind of wondering if it was a joint return.
posted by dilettante at 8:22 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm kind of wondering if it was a joint return.

It is.
posted by Talez at 8:23 AM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


Nice detail about the returns pointed out to me by someone else: NJ doesn't let you (/non-residents?) use losses from real estate to offset what you owe on other income. So you'll notice, the -900,000,000 is not on that form.
posted by damayanti at 8:23 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Chuck Todd: But you have a history of infidelity
Rudy Giuliani: Everybody does


…..

posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:24 AM on October 2, 2016 [37 favorites]


Jake Tapper is good. He's the guy that interviewed Trump and kept asking like 20 different ways if his attacks on Curiel was racist.
posted by chris24 at 8:25 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's also a state return and the law specifies documents filed with the IRS so there's questions if releasing this is even illegal since it's not a federal document.
posted by chris24 at 8:27 AM on October 2, 2016




@MichaelSocolow: In this @esquire interview, Trump claims he was $900 million in debt in 1991. He lost ANOTHER $900 million in 1995?

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/interviews/a1939/esq0104-jan-ceos/
posted by chris24 at 8:32 AM on October 2, 2016 [19 favorites]


I assume that the absentee ballots being chased are mailed with security envelopes, like the ones in my state. If I handed my ballot off to someone at the door, I would be doing so with an envelope that is sealed and bears my signature on the outside, which can be compared to the signature on file with the election board if necessary. No less secure than handing it to a postal worker.
I'm not worried about tampering. I'm worried about losing a ballot. In 2012, one of my volunteers misplaced a ballot, and it was awful. We eventually found it: it had slipped into a gap between the seats in his car. But we really thought that this person was going to be disenfranchised because of our error, which is a terrible feeling. I am generally the kind of person who would lose my head if it weren't attached to my body, and I am not 100% comfortable with the responsibility. I have what I think is an iron-clad system to keep track of ballots that I pick up, but it still stresses me out.

It is conceivable that someone could go to heavily Democratic areas, claim to be Democrats doing ballot chase, and "accidentally" misplace people's ballots, but I think it's unlikely. For one thing, it would be a pretty serious felony, and there are probably ways to suppress turnout that would be less likely to result in you spending years in Federal prison.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:35 AM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]


popcorn.gif

@dandrezner: Oh boy. Suzanne Craig strongly implies to @brianstelter that the @nytimes has more Trump tax documents, will have follow-up stories.
posted by chris24 at 8:37 AM on October 2, 2016 [25 favorites]


The Washington Post recaps Trump's PA rally. Baldwin's SNL Trump Parody was more restrained.
posted by humanfont at 8:37 AM on October 2, 2016


I can't stop watching that SNL cold open. Amazing. Amazing. If it's true that SNL's Sarah Palin stuff had far-reaching implications, I can only pray that the debate parody does the job just as well. That's some good stuff. Kudos staff writers... you nailed it.
posted by valkane at 8:39 AM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


David Pakman: Trump Debate Performance Makes Saturday Night Live Irrelevant

Interesting observation at the seven minute mark: Trump's critique of LaGuardia echoes remarks made by Biden years ago (which Republicans attacked him for.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:41 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Of all the things, so many things, I feel that poisoning trust in the democratic process is the most heinous.

If the accusations are true, it's terrible. If they're not, it's worse.

There are no specifics, of course, so it looks like vile slander against the political legitimacy of the state.

Put up or shut up.
posted by Devonian at 8:43 AM on October 2, 2016 [12 favorites]


@kramtrak: Fun fact: There is something in those tax returns ACTUALLY WORSE than a billion dollar loss & paying no taxes. Otherwise, he'd release them

Yep, after this reveal, what the fuck else is he hiding if he doesn't release.
posted by chris24 at 8:44 AM on October 2, 2016 [43 favorites]


Ezra Klein: Whatever is actually in Trump’s tax returns is worse than what the New York Times says (emphasis in original)
Trump still isn’t releasing his returns. And here’s what that means: whatever is in his returns is worse than what the New York Times is telling the world is in his returns. The Trump campaign has decided it prefers the picture the Times is painting — a picture where Trump didn’t pay taxes for 18 years — to the picture Trump’s real records would paint.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:46 AM on October 2, 2016 [87 favorites]


The federal law on leaks only applies to federal IRS returns. That may be why the NYT only published the state returns. They might still be sitting on the IRS return. That is not to say that there might be other state laws regarding leaking of state tax forms, but it wouldn't be a federal felony.

The federal law is pretty broad, it begins with "Returns and return information shall be confidential" and gives exhaustive definitions of those terms. So, yes, the NYTimes hasn't published his federal tax forms, but by publishing his state returns from CT, NY, and NJ, they have included confidential return information from his federal returns. Just on the NY return alone, lines 1-17 are data directly from his federal returns, including income from wages and tips, income from interest and dividends, rental income, and his federal adjusted gross income.
posted by peeedro at 8:50 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


Well, I'm pretty sure that at the end of the day the Trump brand will be destroyed and he won't be able to borrow money for lunch, much less speculative litigation.
posted by mikelieman at 8:54 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


And today is the day that I hand my brain in. Was just watching Meet the Press and found myself at times nodding in agreement with Glenn Beck. I know who and what he is and how he is responsible for so much of this shitshow but when did he to turn sound all reasonable about what is happening.
posted by Jalliah at 8:55 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yep, after this reveal, what the fuck else is he hiding if he doesn't release.

This is why leaking only one (particularly shark-baity) year was fucking brilliant, if the source had others. Releasing every year rips off the band-aid. Now instead, everyone gets to speculate on what's in the other years, with even more reason to believe there's something there there, and it relieves no pressure on Trump to do something he doesn't want to do.

If the furor dies down, leak another one.
posted by ctmf at 9:00 AM on October 2, 2016 [14 favorites]


Just because he's jumping off a sinking ship doesn't make him not a rat.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:00 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


What is when Glen Beck became desperate to remain relevant?

OK Alex, I'll take "Striking my Colors" for $800
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 9:02 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


It would be interesting to see the supporting documents on how Trump booked those losses. To book a loss, it must be your own money, not borrowed money, that is lost.

If a loan is forgiven, renegotiated and written down by the lender, then instead of a loss, the forgiven debt actually becomes income, with taxes due. For example if the bank forecloses on your underwater house and has a short sale, the bank will send you a Form 1099 showing the forgiven debt as income on which you must pay taxes.

If debt is forgiven as part of a bankruptcy filing, then it does not count as income, but then it doesn't count as a loss either. It is completely eliminated from your accounts.

So it would be interesting to see if Trump's billion dollar loss actually came out of his own pocket, as required for booking a loss. And if the banks wrote down some of Trump's debts, then that should have been reported as income.
posted by JackFlash at 9:02 AM on October 2, 2016 [38 favorites]


Ok I just realized I'm past caring what his base thinks. With W there was a sense that maybe they could be reached, that if we did a better job, that if we found the way to phrase it in their own vernacular, we could find some common ground and inch them away from their most reprehensible social positions.

Instead, we got the so-called "Tea Party," aka the rebranding of the Republican base that still think Bush the Lesser did a good job as president.
posted by Gelatin at 9:03 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


That means that Trump didn't really lose all that money. However he is personally taking the loss because he owned the business that borrowed the money. Maybe the covenant with the bondholders was such that they assumed all the risk and Trump got all of the rewards.

Another reason Trump is, far from an aberration, the embodiment of the Republican philosophy: Socialize the risks, privatize the rewards.
posted by Gelatin at 9:06 AM on October 2, 2016 [16 favorites]


Glenn Beck is a radio guy who rode the asshole gravy train staked out by Rush Limbaugh. I suspect we'll see more of these rats strike a more sympathetic demeanor as civilization moves forward. You know, until the pendulum swings again.
posted by valkane at 9:08 AM on October 2, 2016


Trump has a 10-year-old son.

Oh, shit. Did I just commit a felony by publishing info that also appears on his federal tax return (Form 1040, line 6c)?
posted by zakur at 9:10 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]




Opportunists gotta opportune.
posted by valkane at 9:15 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Rush, even Howard Stern, all those guys should be on the passenger list for Ark B.
posted by valkane at 9:18 AM on October 2, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oh, shit. Did I just commit a felony by publishing info that also appears on his federal tax return (Form 1040, line 6c)?

Don't be fatuous. The existence of his son is not confidential information, but whether he claimed his son, or anyone else, as a dependent would be confidential information.
posted by peeedro at 9:22 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]




Ezra Klein: Whatever is actually in Trump’s tax returns is worse than what the New York Times says

That's a hell of a good point.

Also, while I too haven't been a fan of the NYT's election coverage, I agree with Klein's point that the Times may have been taking a huge risk by going with the story, that Trump wouldn't -- or couldn't -- release his returns and prove them wrong.

I wonder if somehow they knew he couldn't?
posted by Gelatin at 9:23 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


New Trump DC hotel vandalized

Let's keep this story in mind before jumping to conclusions.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 9:27 AM on October 2, 2016 [9 favorites]


Another item on Trump's return that stands out is that he reports only $6100 as wage income subject to Social Security and Medicare taxes (FICA). These are payroll taxes you would always have to pay even if your income tax is zero.

From the little we know, Trump's many businesses are structured as pass-through entities (sole proprietorship, partnership, S-corp) rather than as regular C-corporations. This means at least some of the income from his businesses should be passing through as wages subject to FICA taxes. You can avoid this if you are a completely passive investor in the business but it is hard to believe that Trump was not active in any of his businesses such as building hotels, golf courses and running casinos. As an active participant, he would be required to take reasonable wages.

Failing to declare any pass-through income as wages is a classic FICA tax dodge, because you are required to pay FICA taxes on wages even if your income tax is zero.
posted by JackFlash at 9:33 AM on October 2, 2016 [33 favorites]



New Trump DC hotel vandalized


That's a weird combination of things to spray paint, for the type of person who would vandalize Trump's hotel. IME around here the type of things I've seen spray painted are a lot more militant, for one thing. "No justice, no peace" is pretty generic - I've chanted that at peaceful protests for sustainable energy. Also, BLM people that I've met are pretty smart, and I think most would hesitate before spraying the name of the organization in that way. And it's not, in fact, easy to vandalize a big, fancy place downtown - the only times I've known anything like that to happen around here was during really massive protests which provided cover. Also, most of the spray-paint oriented left people I know are far more focused on how bad Hillary is.

I'm not going to judge someone who vandalizes a Trump property, and I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's definitely an unusual combination of circumstances.
posted by Frowner at 9:33 AM on October 2, 2016 [17 favorites]


Failing to declare any pass-through income as wages is a classic FICA tax dodge, because you are required to pay FICA taxes on wages even if your income tax is zero.

Just this morning I had a conversation with my seventeen-year-old about her looking for an after-school job. She wondered how much of a bite taxes would take from what will probably be a minimum-wage job, and I told her that it'd be income taxes, which she would likely eventually get back in refund, and Social Security, which she would get back when she retired.


My kid is going to be a taxpayer. Trump fails even that basic act of citizenship.
posted by Gelatin at 9:36 AM on October 2, 2016 [24 favorites]


The graffiti is signed "Van". That seems weird to me.
posted by palomar at 9:37 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


humanfont: The Washington Post recaps Trump's PA rally. Baldwin's SNL Trump Parody was more restrained.

I slept in today, and woke up to a text from a friend that was like "Holy shit you have to read this."

Pre-coffee, I wasn't quite sure what I was reading. After having coffee and re-reading it, it's...well, see for yourself:

“You’re unsuspecting,” Trump said. “Right now, you say to your wife: ‘Let’s go to a movie after Trump.’ But you won’t do that because you’ll be so high and so excited that no movie is going to satisfy you. Okay? No movie. You know why? Honestly? Because they don’t make movies like they used to — is that right?”
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:38 AM on October 2, 2016 [22 favorites]


I'm totally high fiving whoever vandalized Trump's hotel and also buying them a drink. I'm surprised however that there's no footage of it, and also it's a hotel, don't they have 24/7 front desk staff who would notice a vandal?
posted by dis_integration at 9:38 AM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


Another thing about that vandalism: how easy would it be for a black person to stand openly on a prominent entranceway like that and spray paint away? Maybe it's real, maybe it's not, but it smells odd. I hope it isn't real. There's nothing bullies like more than a chance to play the victim.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:39 AM on October 2, 2016


It's a beautiful and historic building that's owned by the taxpayers, Trump is just renting it.
posted by peeedro at 9:40 AM on October 2, 2016 [11 favorites]


palomar - is the right wing still obsessed with Van Jones?
posted by Countess Elena at 9:41 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump doesn't actually own anything these days, he just suckers other people into paying him licensing and management fees.
posted by strange chain at 9:41 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


(And I would say more about that graffiti and my suspicions, but I'm off to talk to the old folks at Grandma's senior housing community about voting and making sure they're registered before next week's online/mail-in cutoff. (The WA cutoff date for registration not done in person happens to land on my birthday, and Grandma has about half of these people in love with me after they saw me in and out of her home last winter to take care of her during some health issues and listened to her sing my praises, and the other half are terrified/in fearful awe of her after an epic fight she started with the community bully, so she'll lean on people to give her beloved granddaughter this very important birthday gift. And I'm planning to go back as soon as ballots are out, armed with stamps and offers to drive anyone to a ballot drop-off site who would rather do it that way. If we had actual polls, I'd be ferrying them by the carload... I sort of miss those days. Miss the I Voted stickers, too, and the nice old church ladies at my polling station. Anyway, off to stir up the oldsters!)
posted by palomar at 9:44 AM on October 2, 2016 [33 favorites]


Doing your tax return is largely "how much do you want to get audited?" which is why the six-foot-high stack of tax returns works in Trump's favor. His lawyers can get the auditors tied up in them indefinitely.

I would be retired by now if I dodged FICA, so fuck this guy.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:44 AM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]


The FICA thing really gets me, because his legitimate FICA bill couldn't be that high. FICA caps out at, what, $120,000? People who make a million dollars don't pay FICA on all of it. I checked, and it looks like the maximum possible FICA bill in 2016 is like $8,000. He travels in a plane with a gold-plated toilet. He can easily afford to pay $8,000 a year to keep Social Security and Medicare afloat. It's such a gross, petty thing to dodge. It's such a statement of contempt for all of us who gladly pay that tax so our parents and grandparents can grow old with dignity and security.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:47 AM on October 2, 2016 [49 favorites]


I could believe the vandal wasn't a left-winger or BLM protester, and I could believe that Trump told someone to vandalize someone else's property, but I think he's too vain to knowingly approve a plan to vandalize his own property.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:47 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


@SenatorReid: Republicans have put party so far ahead of country, they've endorsed a racist failure who managed to lose a billion dollars in a boom year.
posted by chris24 at 9:47 AM on October 2, 2016 [77 favorites]


Well this explains why Romney hates him so much. Trump is part of the 47%.
posted by one_bean at 9:51 AM on October 2, 2016 [35 favorites]


The FICA thing really gets me, because his legitimate FICA bill couldn't be that high. FICA caps out at, what, $120,000?

There is no cap on the 2.9% Medicare tax. So if Trump were required to report $1 million in wages, he would owe $29,000 in ordinary Medicare taxes. The ACA adds an additional 0.9% tax for wages above $250,000 so that would be an additional $6750.

I checked, and it looks like the maximum possible FICA bill in 2016 is like $8,000.

As self-employed, Trump would owe almost twice that on his first $117,000.
posted by JackFlash at 9:56 AM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


I am starting to worry that I've developed an addiction to these regular bursts of election-related excitement chemicals to my brain, and will go into physical withdrawal after the election is over.

There may not be enough guacamole in the world to get me through it. I expect it to be ugly.
posted by Superplin at 9:56 AM on October 2, 2016 [11 favorites]


Glenn Beck is anti-Trump but he's still Glenn Beck. He still believes all that crazy conspiracy shit.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:59 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump doesn't actually own anything these days, he just suckers other people into paying him licensing and management fees.

Yep. The developer of the Trump Hotel here in Toronto has been trying to nope the hell out of such a for a while. They don't look great in all of this either - the whole thing has been a shitshow from the get-go. The developer put up the tower for sale earlier this year.

A Look Inside Trump's Global Deals Exposes Trouble in Many Spots:

...an examination of his operations abroad reveals that, while he has made many millions selling his name, he has chosen a number of inexperienced -- even questionable -- partners, sometimes infuriated buyers and associates and moved late into saturated markets, producing less income than advertised.

So, I guess, going back to Trump's remarks in PA last night:

"Do not let this opportunity slip away or be wasted. You will never ever have this chance again. Not going to happen again… You have one magnificent chance.”

Sigh. Always be closing.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:59 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


If a loan is forgiven, renegotiated and written down by the lender, then instead of a loss, the forgiven debt actually becomes income, with taxes due. For example if the bank forecloses on your underwater house and has a short sale, the bank will send you a Form 1099 showing the forgiven debt as income on which you must pay taxes.
posted by JackFlash at 12:02 PM on October 2 [10 favorites +] [!]


Huh. So, if he hires a contractor to do some work for him, then does not pay (creating a debt), then maybe has a lawyer slide over a document saying "Sign here or we'll just start suing you for defamation" thereby canceling the debt...

Would that count as income for Trump?
posted by rebent at 10:02 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


New Trump DC hotel vandalized

Let's keep this story in mind before jumping to conclusions.


I'd thought it was gonna be this one.
posted by rp at 10:09 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Huh. So, if he hires a contractor to do some work for him, then does not pay (creating a debt), then maybe has a lawyer slide over a document saying "Sign here or we'll just start suing you for defamation" thereby canceling the debt...

Would that count as income for Trump?


It's one of those playing fast and loose with a 1099-C things. I doubt many of the contractors Trump stiffed realized they were supposed to send one out. It's entirely fucked up but that's probably one of the reasons Trump doesn't want to release his tax returns.
posted by Talez at 10:10 AM on October 2, 2016


Would that count as income for Trump?

Probably not. Before handing over a check for work performed, you require the contractor to sign a lien waver stating that the bill is paid in full. There is no forgiveness of debt. They have just "renegotiated" the price, albeit arguably under duress.
posted by JackFlash at 10:10 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


To give the Hotel vandalism some context, a historic black school house was just vandalized in Virginia. It was all over the news here. I think this might be more local backlash than national in this case.
posted by frecklefaerie at 10:25 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


The town hall debate will supposedly feature questions submitted by and voted up by the public. Go to presidentialopenquestions.com to submit and vote for questions!
posted by TreeRooster at 10:26 AM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


Since Trump claims he knows more about taxes than anyone who ran for president before, I just want to point out that Michelle Bachman has an LLM in tax. That is, even Michelle ("gardasil causes learning disabilities") Bachman knows more about tax law than Trump.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:28 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


It would be really helpful to see STATEMENT 1.
posted by kiltedtaco at 10:28 AM on October 2, 2016


STATEMENT 1: BELIEVE ME
posted by melissasaurus at 10:28 AM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]


Chuck Todd: But you have a history of infidelity
Rudy Giuliani: Everybody does


.....Omigaw. Is Giuliani Zambrano?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:32 AM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm not going to judge someone who vandalizes a Trump property, and I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's definitely an unusual combination of circumstances.

It does kind of have a familiar "what a 12 year old thinks the bad guy might say" ring about it, but there is always a bottom 1% of any organization who is going to be off key and off message.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 10:46 AM on October 2, 2016


Hillary has a new tool on her website: Trump "Smart" Tax Calculator

(My favorite part is the note at the bottom once you enter your income: "Factcheckers: Please send inquiries to senior strategist Corey Lewandowski at corey@cnn.com")
posted by sporkwort at 10:58 AM on October 2, 2016 [35 favorites]


Dammit, the grafitti artist was a black guy.

This is not going to play well.
posted by Talez at 11:00 AM on October 2, 2016


Trump May Have Had the Worst Week in Presidential Campaign History

I think we're finally at the point where the ridiculous mass of devastating scandals and insane comments from Trump aren't blocking each other anymore. It's still impossible to keep track of them all and bear them all in mind at once, but I think each one now adds to one big, easy-to-remember overarching narrative -- this guy is unfit to be president.

I suspect Alicia Machado was the slight breeze that finally brought the Three Stooges Syndrome to an end.
posted by kyrademon at 11:02 AM on October 2, 2016 [11 favorites]


petebest: "whether the billion dollar loss was his to declare on his personal tax return"

I certainly don't understand the details of this, but this blog post by John Hempton of Bronte Capital seems to address these key issues (h/t James Fallows). Read the whole post, but it seems to say that one of these things must be true:
  1. Trump actually incurred 1 billion dollars of personal debt and has been working to pay it back these past 20 years (and he has then been legitimately not paying federal income taxes)
  2. In some way the debt was forgiven or was actually incurred by a third party (and therefore he should not receive tax forgiveness)
  3. The debt is actually controlled by him (through his business and/or shell corporations) and he is simply not requiring that he pay himself back (so-called "debt parking"). He claims to the IRS that he is in debt and therefore pays no taxes, but suffers no real pain from that debt.
And it is unlikely, given his history, that number 1 is true.
posted by pjenks at 11:08 AM on October 2, 2016 [11 favorites]


"Some black guy sprays BLM graffiti" is really a big deal? A misdemeanor, ok, but nobody died. I know everything feeds into the Republican assumption that they are the Only True Victims, but this seems pretty minor.
posted by emjaybee at 11:10 AM on October 2, 2016 [35 favorites]


I just finished my canvassing shift and I'm in the car with my fellow volunteers. The shift went reasonably well!

My cohort and I had 42 potential voters with whom to connect. Of those, we managed to connect with about ten people. We expected to talk to more, since the weather has been bad and the Pats were playing. We got two Trump supporters (both of whom surprised me with their politeness) and one woman who said "I'm voting, but I'm too classy to tell you who for!" (WTF?) I also got two women who high-fived me when they saw my Hillary button. The first person I canvassed was probably on heroin, which was bizarre.

I signed up for the next few Sundays, since Hillz needs me. This was interesting and I'm glad I did it.
posted by pxe2000 at 11:10 AM on October 2, 2016 [65 favorites]


I suspect Alicia Machado was the slight breeze that finally brought the Three Stooges Syndrome to an end.

And if anyone thinks that's the only trap Team Clinton has in store for Trump, I have a bunch of Trump-branded steaks and vodka to sell you.
posted by Gelatin at 11:10 AM on October 2, 2016 [11 favorites]


Hillary has a new tool on her website: Trump "Smart" Tax Calculator

Ha ha. Love the Monopoly style guy as well.

Jalli puts in yearly wage:


"If you were Donald Trump, you would have paid

$0.00*

in federal income taxes.



The programming for this isn't difficult but it's still great the campaign has people on staff/call (likely staff) that can be so quick at getting something like this up when it's needed. Or that they figured that it might be useful and prepared it in advance just in case.
posted by Jalliah at 11:11 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


Dammit, the grafitti artist was a black guy.

This is not going to play well.


Does it play badly? I don't see why there's handwringing about this. The paint can be cleaned off, and I think the messages are exactly on point. If anything those garish handrails and Trump's name are already vandalism enough.
posted by dis_integration at 11:12 AM on October 2, 2016 [9 favorites]


Huh. He really is the king of debt.
posted by ian1977 at 11:13 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


Does it play badly? I don't see why there's handwringing about this. The paint can be cleaned off, and I think the messages are exactly on point.

"Did you hear what happened Sunday? One of Crooked Hillary's people vandalized one of my buildings. Is that the kind of President you want, someone who associates with criminals and vandals?"

....Yeah, this could play badly.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:15 AM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Some black guy sprays BLM graffiti" is really a big deal? A misdemeanor, ok, but nobody died. I know everything feeds into the Republican assumption that they are the Only True Victims, but this seems pretty minor.

I can totally see him talking about it and saying even worse things then he already has about black people and BLM. Which campaign wise is only bad for him and if there is any traction on Trump as a victim angle will get overshadowed.

I expect people are gonna try to make it a big deal.
posted by Jalliah at 11:16 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


Heh. From that NBC News link:
The combination of a multiple damaging stories, all made dramatically worse by the candidate's impulsive response, may be without precedent. It's as if Dukakis were photographed riding in the tank, saw the mocking news coverage, then climbed back into the tank and drove cross-country with Willie Horton riding shotgun as his own staff begged him to pull over.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:16 AM on October 2, 2016 [17 favorites]


He might talk about it and try to make hay but he will squander any opportunity to use it to his advantage and will instead just put his foot in his mouth so I say hey knock yourself out.
posted by ian1977 at 11:21 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


And in response all team Clinton has to say is 'shrug, we are of course against vandalism. Shrug shrug shrug'
posted by ian1977 at 11:21 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


this could play badly.

Forgotten by tomorrow. Even a press which might be desperate for a "both sides" won't latch onto a very minor crime by a random who has no connection to a campaign. Perhaps if there was a serious wave of vandalism against Trump properties, but that doesn't seem to be happening. Or if it is, it's getting ignored.
posted by honestcoyote at 11:28 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


Finishing move by Marla would be so so schadenfreudy delicious.
posted by ian1977 at 11:28 AM on October 2, 2016 [50 favorites]


Olivia Goldsmith, thou shouldst be living at this hour
posted by Countess Elena at 11:29 AM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump could be played by nick tortelli!
posted by ian1977 at 11:33 AM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


"I'm voting, but I'm too classy to tell you who for!"

Context usually makes it pretty clear who my family members are voting for, but both of my parents feel very strongly that it is both their right and a matter of decorum to not tell people who you voted for. Extended family have the same attitude.

That said, telling people you're too classy to tell them who you are voting for seems to violate the spirit of decorum in a... paralipsistical way that suggests their being partial to one of the current main candidates over the other. I'm too classy to say which one.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 11:33 AM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yeah, the vandalism thing isn't anything. All they have to say is that of course vandalism is bad, and this will be handled by the appropriate authorities, and why are you trying to change the subject from the completely humiliating evidence of your incompetence as a businessman that is revealed in your leaked tax returns. Because dude, you lost $900 million dollars investing in casinos in the middle of an economic boom. That's not a resume. That's a punchline.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:35 AM on October 2, 2016 [19 favorites]


'Follow the money. Crooked Hillary woke up long enough to pay a stooge to deface my beautiful winner property.'
posted by ian1977 at 11:39 AM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


“How many people have acid-washed or bleached a tweet?” Trump asked the crowd. “How many? That you deleted? So you deleted it but that’s not good enough. No, this is crazy. Our country is becoming a third-world country.”

If you interpret "third world country" as "place where not-white* people have power" then... he's semi-accurate on the last bit? I mean, not-white USAns don't have as much power as I wish they did, nor as much power as I hope they will have in the USA, but demographic shift and some white people directly confronting and working to address racism is causing changes in a lot of different systems which will eventually result in not-white people in the US having a lot more power and influence, gods willing.

He's also probably accurate with the sense that the social and political dominance of the US is starting to shift; it will take a lot longer for our military to be outclassed the way we're going, but people in other countries are starting to question the conquest narratives which have driven the European diaspora so far. Those narratives allowed a tiny part of the globe to have a really outsized influence to the detriment of pretty much everyone they colonized, so from my perspective it can't come soon enough, but I think this global shift toward reality instead of dominance myth might be driving a lot of the fears of white people. After all, realistically speaking, we're a tiny minority globally.

The more I've watched how white people respond to the looming specter of power loss, the more I've convinced our fears are that everyone else will be as bad as we were to us.


*I'm struggling with the phrasing on this because "brown" only sometimes seems to cover Asians and coming up with a word for "most of the world's population but not the majority here" is hard. I don't like shaping groups by what they aren't in general, but in this case it seems appropriate given how racist Trump is.
posted by Deoridhe at 11:40 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


The world "failure" is the key. Trump-leaning folks will remain intrigued by a mean son of a bitch so long as they think he's successful. If he's a failure and an embarrassment, sort of pathetic man-baby, then he's doomed.

Fortunately, when Trump is doomed he acts like a pathetic man-baby. Just gotta keep him on the cycle. Losing a billion a year and being whipped by women starts the cycle.
posted by argybarg at 11:41 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


Since the debate, I'm seeing a bunch of newer voices in the thread, people I haven't seen as active in past election threads. This is great, but since we've collected a fair number of in-jokes and baggage over the past I-don't-even-know-how-many comments, it's easy to get lost. I thought I'd start a MeFi Wiki page with a glossary to help get people up to speed on Meredith, the Steves, the Shaving Kit, and the like: ElectionThreadReference.

It's a first draft. Feel free to edit, rip it up, add things I forgot (it's a suitably difficult task to think of a list of inane things that you know but others may not), insult my intelligence, etc...
posted by zachlipton at 11:41 AM on October 2, 2016 [102 favorites]


A friend of a friend mentioned a Russian proverb they considered apt to the current situation: «Плохому танцору яйца мешают». (“A bad dancer always complains that his balls get in the way.”)
posted by Going To Maine at 11:45 AM on October 2, 2016 [57 favorites]


Finishing move by Marla would be so so schadenfreudy delicious

Not even Allan Drury would write something so soap-operatic. Which means it's probably going to turn out to be true.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:46 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]




It's a first draft. Feel free to edit, rip it up, add things I forgot (it's a suitably difficult task to think of a list of inane things that you know but others may not), insult my intelligence, etc...

This is great. Thanks. It's missing JCPL! If someone can't do it before I finish today's coursework I'll see if I can figure out how to add it.
posted by Jalliah at 11:47 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


An innocent audience member at the next town hall is going to ask him about this, he's not going to have prepared an answer, and will blow up at them about it.
posted by kiltedtaco at 11:50 AM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wait, that's what #NextPost is supposed to signify? (I thought it was just shorthand for "please, for the love of everything that is good and pure, someone make a new election post because I can't follow this one anymore!")
posted by Spathe Cadet at 11:52 AM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


Side note, on Becoming a Third World Country from my favorite environmentalist druid blogger, John Michael Greer, 6 years ago:
What distinguishes the Third World from the privileged industrial minority of the world’s nations? Third World nations import most of their manufactured goods from abroad, while exporting mostly raw materials; that’s been true of the United States for decades now. Third World economies have inadequate domestic capital, and are dependent on loans from abroad; that’s been true of the United States for just about as long. Third World societies are economically burdened by severe problems with public health; the United States ranks dead last for life expectancy among industrial nations, and its rates of infant mortality are on a par with those in Indonesia, so that’s covered. Third World nation are very often governed by kleptocracies – well, let’s not even go there, shall we?

There are, in fact, precisely two things left that differentiate the United States from any other large, overpopulated, impoverished Third World nation. The first is that the average standard of living here, measured either in money or in terms of energy and resource consumption, stands well above Third World levels – in fact, it’s well above the levels of most industrial nations. The second is that the United States has the world’s most expensive and technologically complex military. Those two factors are closely related...
Somehow, I don't think those are the aspects of "third world country" that Trump is using.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:54 AM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]


lol
@jeffrybur At $50K per truck, and counting intersections with traffic lights, $916M would actually buy you a taco truck on every corner of NYC and LA.
posted by Jalliah at 11:58 AM on October 2, 2016 [68 favorites]


$916M would actually buy you a taco truck on every corner of NYC and LA.

I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
posted by zachlipton at 12:00 PM on October 2, 2016 [34 favorites]


The Revenge of Marla is also instant head cannon.

I think I just shivered with glee.
posted by schadenfrau at 12:02 PM on October 2, 2016 [12 favorites]


That seems wasteful. I'd settle for one taco truck to follow me around. Maybe two in case one is in the shop for repairs.
posted by ian1977 at 12:03 PM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]


zachlipton: I thought I'd start a MeFi Wiki page with a glossary to help get people up to speed on Meredith, the Steves, the Shaving Kit, and the like: ElectionThreadReference.

Zachlipton, that is a great resource. Thanks for doing it!
posted by Superplin at 12:04 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


At $50K per truck, and counting intersections with traffic lights, $916M would actually buy you a taco truck on every corner of NYC and LA.

Now THIS is a concrete and specific plan for making America great again. I'm just concerned vast swathes of America would be left out.

True greatness will require rural tacofication legislation modelled on the Rural Electrification Act.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:05 PM on October 2, 2016 [49 favorites]


Rural Tacofication is priceless! LOLing uncontrollably.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 12:07 PM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]


Looks like Assange doesn't want to be upstaged by all the tax return and general meltdown drama, so the foreshadowed Wikileaks release has been canceled.

I mean, because of security concerns. That's why.
posted by Superplin at 12:07 PM on October 2, 2016 [30 favorites]


The Revenge of Marla

This would be so utterly, completely fantastic, I can't even. Revenge is a dish that tastes best when it is cold, indeed.
posted by LooseFilter at 12:07 PM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


on Becoming a Third World Country from my favorite environmentalist druid blogger, John Michael Greer, 6 years ago

In 2010 we had a negative NIIP of $3T, since then it has rolled off the table to $8T:

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/international/intinv/intinvnewsrelease.htm

AFAICT having a positive NIIP is correlated with having a good, happy society:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_creditor_nations_by_net_international_investment_position_per_capita
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 12:10 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Taco trucks on every corner of NYC and LA would once again prioritize the needs of big-city elites over those of rural Americans. What we need are driverless taco trucks that can be hailed by a smartphone app from anywhere in the country, with a federally guaranteed response time. It is a travesty that in 2016 our nation's taco infrastructure does not have Common Carrier status.
posted by contraption at 12:11 PM on October 2, 2016 [29 favorites]


For a bunch of radical transparency advocates, that announcement from WikiLeaks is sure short on actual information.
posted by zachlipton at 12:11 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


It would be really helpful to see STATEMENT 1.
posted by kiltedtaco at 12:28 PM on October 2

STATEMENT 1: BELIEVE ME
posted by melissasaurus at 12:28 PM on October 2


See Figure 1.
posted by Reverend John at 12:12 PM on October 2, 2016


What is it with silver-haired young villains? They were sexy in anime once, but IRL they turn out to be pathetic woman-hating cowards.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:14 PM on October 2, 2016 [14 favorites]


Josh Marshall dangles the heavenly possibility that Trump could end up being financially ruined by all this

As lovely as this would be, it's pretty clear that he could pump out a ghost written book every two years for the rest of his life and continue to live a life of luxury. I'd bet he could easily clear $30 million from book sales next year alone.

But all that aside, part of the glory of the LLC shell game is that if you know what you're doing (and while he may or may not, his team certainly does), it's possible to isolate debt into businesses that you allow to fold while sheltering assets in others. The disclosures may hurt him to some extent as far as getting funding for future projects, but most of the big money that he utilizes is well aware of his business practices.
posted by Candleman at 12:19 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Whoever you are: thank you for being brave enough to do this and to undertake those risks.

i hope it was tiffany
posted by poffin boffin at 12:20 PM on October 2, 2016 [37 favorites]


Looks like Assange doesn't want to be upstaged by all the tax return and general meltdown drama, so the foreshadowed Wikileaks release has been canceled.

I mean, because of security concerns. That's why.


.......

This election is just so, so weird.
posted by Jalliah at 12:21 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


i hope it was tiffany

My headcannon is now that both Tiffany and Marla decided to do it. They had some secret mother daughter discussion while sitting on a super comfy couch and drinking wine. Marla prepared the package and Tiffany mailed it.
posted by Jalliah at 12:23 PM on October 2, 2016 [32 favorites]


Did everyone see Maureen Dowd's "Girl Talk" editorial, now trending 4th on the NYT most popular? If linked earlier, I apologize. If not, I recommend you sit down while reading as every paragraph will make you hoot.
posted by bearwife at 12:29 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


If it was them, I hope it never comes out. The alt-right if fucking unhinged.
posted by cmfletcher at 12:30 PM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'd bet he could easily clear $30 million from book sales next year alone.

This is very much an open question. There's not that much money in publishing, and even if there were, Trump's books sell well, but not The Fault In Our Stars well. His ghostwriter says he's only received $1.6 million from what was meant to be a 50/50 split. It's not chump change for an average American, but certainly wouldn't keep him in the manner to which he is accustomed.
posted by Andrhia at 12:32 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


I love the crowd-sourcing of financial accounting that has happened in the last six months. Looking forward to what comes out in the next weeks. We really are stronger together.
posted by Dashy at 12:35 PM on October 2, 2016 [11 favorites]


That manner being letting other people pay for lunch
posted by beerperson at 12:36 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


I just wanted to underscore that Jack Mitnick, Donald Trump's former tax preparer who agreed to emerge from "semiretirement" to meet with The New York Times in a Florida bagel shop, is kind of a hero here. If he hadn't been willing to vouch for the veracity of the tax documents, the Times may not have been able to publish them at all. Mitnick could just as easily been like, "I'm a gazillion years old and I don't need this shit. Get off my lawn."
posted by Mothlight at 12:36 PM on October 2, 2016 [109 favorites]


> Did everyone see Maureen Dowd's "Girl Talk" editorial

Hmm. It seems to be trying to take Trump and the men in the GOP down a peg by calling them girls and women; if that's what it's doing, them I'm not loving that.
I've met 13-year-old girls who seemed a lot saner, tougher and smarter than Trump looks lately.
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:37 PM on October 2, 2016 [26 favorites]


I wonder if Assange is beginning to think to himself there is absolutely no chance that anything wikileaks can drop would have even the slightest chance of keeping Trump's campaign from completely derailing.
posted by vuron at 12:37 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Actually I think the genius of the Dowd piece is taking standard sexist stereotypes and turning them on the Trump entourage.
posted by bearwife at 12:39 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


What we need are driverless taco trucks that can be hailed by a smartphone app from anywhere in the country, with a federally guaranteed response time.

I think that's a fine idea!

hmmm....well, ya gotta have some sort of starting point to figure the numbers out from somewhere.

How Much Does It Cost To Start A Food Truck Business
mobile-cuisine.com

Running A Food Truck For Dummies Cheat Sheet
dummies.com
posted by lampshade at 12:39 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


poffin boffin: i hope it was tiffany

I haven't checked this, but supposedly Tiffany is the only one of his children he doesn't follow on Twitter, which makes me kind of sad for her.
posted by bluecore at 12:43 PM on October 2, 2016 [11 favorites]


What we need are driverless taco trucks that can be hailed by a smartphone app from anywhere in the country

Think bigger. Taco drones that fire tacos into your waiting face holes.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 12:43 PM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


Not that we need more proof that Trump is unhinged, but... damn.
posted by dhens at 12:44 PM on October 2, 2016




Re: Dowd piece:

My concentration snagged so badly on "Pretty boy Sean Hannity" that it took me a solid ten, fifteen minutes to be capable of processing language again.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 12:45 PM on October 2, 2016 [12 favorites]


which makes me kind of sad for her

i mean? maybe? i personally would feel like welp bullet dodged if the shrill deranged attention of a hateful bigoted narcissist managed to pass me by, no matter who they were to me.

frex frodo and sam felt lucky when the eye of sauron passed over them on their way to mordor
posted by poffin boffin at 12:47 PM on October 2, 2016 [15 favorites]


I haven't checked this, but supposedly Tiffany is the only one of his children he doesn't follow on Twitter, which makes me kind of sad for her.

I bet she thanks her lucky stars that she lives on the other side of the country from him and barely ever has to see him. Barron's the one I feel sorry for.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:47 PM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


Actually I think the genius of the Dowd piece

ugh i just shot diet coke out my nose
posted by indubitable at 12:47 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


One of the questions you can vote up for the debate is "How does a bill become a law?". That's some high class Trump trolling right there.

I... kind of want to hear him answer it though.
posted by Justinian at 12:49 PM on October 2, 2016 [36 favorites]


Isn't Maureen Dowd the same lady who ate an entire multi-serving weed chocolate bar all by herself with no prior weed experience, and used her resulting terrible time as an argument for why Drugs R Bad?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:49 PM on October 2, 2016 [36 favorites]


Yes. Yes she is.
posted by Justinian at 12:50 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


Intriguing tidbit from Politico:
Further muddying the path ahead, the expected WikiLeaks dump could take a toll on Trump as well. According to one person close to the Trump campaign who has been briefed on the implications, but not the substance, of the coming reveal, “It ain’t great for either candidate.”
posted by Rhaomi at 12:51 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wikileaks leak leaked. They have found photographic evidence of Hillary Clinton participating in the murder of one of her enemies. This changes everything!!!
posted by humanfont at 12:55 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is a tough crowd. No, I don't like Maureen Dowd, who among other things has been an unhinged Hillary hater this season. But per an earlier link in this thread, she is one of the woman journalists Trump has treated like crap this election season. And when she writes a good column, it tends to be worth reading. For those who find sexism tropes turned upside down amusing, enjoy the Girl Talk link.
posted by bearwife at 12:56 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


> : I just wanted to underscore that Jack Mitnick, Donald Trump's former tax preparer who agreed to emerge from "semiretirement" to meet with The New York Times in a Florida bagel shop, is kind of a hero here. If he hadn't been willing to vouch for the veracity of the tax documents, the Times may not have been able to publish them at all.

I wonder if Mitnick had read this Trump quote provided by a former Trump employee, and if so what he thought of it:

“I’ve got black accountants at Trump Castle and at Trump Plaza — black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day. Those are the kind of people I want counting my money. Nobody else"
posted by wilko at 12:57 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hey, if it makes you hoot, then more power to you and happy hooting.
(No snark or sarcasm intended here.)
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:58 PM on October 2, 2016


I usually can't stand MoDo, but she managed a decent article there.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:00 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


I really liked this bit of detail in the NYT piece, where they quote Mitnick:

“This is legit,” he said, stabbing a finger into the document.

I like that they went with this rather than a drier "Mitnick confirmed the document was legimate." But despite doing this sort of thing for a living, even Mitnick seems to have has a twinge of conscience:

Mr. Mitnick, though, said there were times when even he, for all his years helping wealthy New Yorkers navigate the tax code, found it difficult to face the incongruity of his work for Mr. Trump. He felt keenly aware that Mr. Trump was living a life of unimaginable luxury thanks in part to Mr. Mitnick’s ability to relieve him of the burden of paying taxes like everyone else.

“Here the guy was building incredible net worth and not paying tax on it,” he said.

posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:02 PM on October 2, 2016 [19 favorites]


ugh i just shot diet coke out my nose

You were one word away from becoming the next campaign manager.
posted by cmfletcher at 1:02 PM on October 2, 2016 [31 favorites]


if you worked at a Trump casino, you were nearly 40 percent more likely to lose your job than if you worked at one of the others.
In head-to-head competition – with the same businesses in the same place and time, facing the same challenges – Trump’s casinos performed worse, on average, than their peers at creating sustainable jobs.

His casinos were not the “best” and not even “average” – they were the worst.
from "The Conversation", with some nifty charts.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 1:03 PM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


You were one word away from becoming the next campaign manager.


If you want to hang out, you've gotta take her out
Campaign
If you want to get down, get down on the ground
Campaign
She don't lie, she don't lie, she don't lie
Campaign

Ok. Gotta go listen to some JJ Cale now.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:18 PM on October 2, 2016 [15 favorites]


Maureen Dowd, who among other things has been an unhinged Hillary hater this season...

This season?
Media Matters analyzed 195 columns by Dowd since November 1993 containing significant mentions of Clinton for whether they included any of 16 negative tropes in five categories (listed in the below methodology). 72 percent (141 columns) were negative towards Clinton -- only 8 percent (15 columns) were positive. The remaining 20 percent (39 columns) were neutral.
Link
posted by TWinbrook8 at 1:20 PM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]


I don't know how anyone is staying sane in the US.

You're reading this thread, right?
posted by Horace Rumpole at 1:23 PM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]


The majority of media-written things about Clinton are negative, and even the positive ones mention the negative almost reflexively. It's why "No one likes her" [real, but inaccurate].
posted by Deoridhe at 1:24 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Staying sane? Just search for the wingle word 'Trump' on Twitter right now, and you'll find few signs of sanity. The Trumpsters are flipping their flap-doodle.

Think the Black Knight sequence in Holy Grail....
posted by Devonian at 1:24 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Third World nations import most of their manufactured goods from abroad, while exporting mostly raw materials; that’s been true of the United States for decades now.

Nah. The US exports more capital goods than anything else and makes shitloads of manufactured goods. It doesn't usually feel like that because a lot of the cheap consumer stuff you buy in stores is imported while a lot of the stuff made and especially exported by the US are bigger ticket, business-to-business things. And it takes something like a million cheap lcd tvs to counteract one 777 (not that the world can buy many 777s in a year, but still).
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:25 PM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


I don't know how anyone is staying sane in the US.

Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence.
posted by zachlipton at 1:26 PM on October 2, 2016 [43 favorites]


Jack Mitnick, Donald Trump's former tax preparer who agreed to emerge from "semiretirement" to meet with The New York Times in a Florida bagel shop

aka "Deep Bagel."
posted by octobersurprise at 1:34 PM on October 2, 2016 [26 favorites]


briefed on the implications, but not the substance

Implication but no substance seems to be a good description of Wikileaks circa 2016.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:34 PM on October 2, 2016 [9 favorites]


There are more than 250,000 manufacturers in the United States. These firms contribute $2.17 trillion to GDP (12% of the economy). They employ 12.3 million people and expect to employ another 3.5 million in the next decade. Average wage is $79,000/year. Source
posted by humanfont at 1:35 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


or a schmear campaign if you were detective Briscoe
posted by cmfletcher at 1:37 PM on October 2, 2016 [45 favorites]


schmear campaign

*golf clap*
posted by octobersurprise at 1:42 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]




I tried clicking on that hashtag but someone got in it and posted, "liberals, you love animals, look what they do to dogs in Muslim countries" and I left before the gif could finish loading. It's like you have to catch a liberal-leaning hashtag before it becomes a Thing and is subsequently shit up.
posted by Countess Elena at 1:51 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ohio swing state TV commercial update: just saw my first Trump campaign commercial. Very vague platitudes about how much Papa Trump loves the common man.
posted by cooker girl at 1:55 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ok, I'm not caught up on the thread, so apologies if this has been brought up, but I skimmed and didn't see it.

The Clinton campaign has put up a "Trump 'Smart' Tax Calculator" where you enter your income and it tells you how much you would pay if you were Trump. (I assume it just always says $0.)

But the part I'm wondering about is after your enter your income and the results page says this:
*Donald Trump says it’s because he’s smart. The New York Times says it’s because he lost almost a billion dollars. Either way, Donald Trump may have avoided paying federal income taxes for 18 years after losing $916 million in 1995. And Trump really did pay zero, or nearly zero, in federal income taxes in 1978, 1979, 1984, 1991, and 1993. Until we see evidence otherwise, we’ll assume it’s still zero.

Factcheckers: Please send inquiries to senior Trump strategist Corey Lewandowski at corey@cnn.com
WHAT is with that line about Corey Lewandowski?
posted by threeturtles at 1:56 PM on October 2, 2016


WHAT is with that line about Corey Lewandowski?

It's a dig at the fact that Lewandowski is still getting money from the Trump campaign.
posted by Jalliah at 1:59 PM on October 2, 2016 [12 favorites]


Countess Elena, among #TheLastTimeTrumpPaidTaxes tweets I RT'd last night were these:
1. Queen Elizabeth was a princess
2. He was jealous because Woody Allen was marrying his daughter.
3. [Picture of John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever]
posted by NorthernLite at 2:08 PM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


WHAT is with that line about Corey Lewandowski?

on a functional note, hearing the name Corey Lewandowski does save me bookoo $$ on laxative purchases.

I mean, the effect is the same. Why pay for it if I can just turn on CNN?
posted by lampshade at 2:22 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


I fully support Rural Tacofication. My town's hole-in-the-wall taco place closed up, though we retain the requisite three Mexican restaurants. (For reference, there's only one fast food place: Dairy Queen.) There is a non-mobile taco truck in the next town over but really we need more taco options.

Though actually I'd prefer Obama's promised Rural Internetification. Speaking as someone who has currently run out of data on her satellite internet plan and can't load webpages with images.
posted by threeturtles at 2:29 PM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]






Giuliani: Trump 'better for the United States than a woman':
"Don’t you think a man who has this kind of economic genius is a lot better for the United States than a woman, and the only thing she’s ever produced is a lot of work for the FBI checking out her e-mails," the former New York City mayor said on "This Week" with George Stephanopoulos.
...
"And so now basically it’s don’t lecture me, Hillary, on feminism, because you’re a phony."
posted by kirkaracha at 2:47 PM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


And they assume Trump can be a "Champion" for anyone's interests but His Own? That's the textbook definition of Gullible Idiot.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:48 PM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


Giuliani is a human pustule.
posted by spitbull at 2:51 PM on October 2, 2016 [33 favorites]


From that WaPo article on Trump's Wacky Penn Rally™

The rally started more than an hour and 40 minutes late because heavy fog delayed Trump’s arrival. . . . When Trump finally took the stage, it was clear that he was worked up about something as he quickly rushed through his usual talking points.

Ssssnnnnnnnnnnnffffffffffhhhhkk! Ahhh! Whooo! *eyebulge* wait . . No wait, let's do another.

Halfway through the statement, Trump took a nearly 20-minute-long break to cover a range of topics . . .

Guys! Guys! Lets get a bus and stick it on a big frickin' boat! No- TWO boats, y'know - like how the army has those boats that open up and those jeeps come out of - NO no tanks! Lets get some friggin tanks okay . . .

He resumed his scripted spot: “To sum up…” But he interrupted himself . . .

"Oh man that's when like this one time me and Rudy. . . ."

He recounted how the “dopes at CNN” and “phony pundits” refused to acknowledge how well he was doing during the primaries. “Then we started getting 52 percent, 58 percent, 66 percent, 78 percent, 82 percent," Trump said, not making clear what those numbers mean. "And they just didn’t understand what was going on.”

Well obviously that's a reference to percent complete. Probably describing a security update he saw or something.

He claimed that he has a “winning temperament” while Clinton has “bad temperament.” Trump continued: “She could be crazy. She could actually be crazy.”

Okay, I'm gonna just stop me there, ahh . . I know the tax story kinda ate the cycle today but could we revisit this tomorrow? It sounds like he really might be losing it.
posted by petebest at 2:51 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


Giuliani makes me sad.
The things he says are so ... sadly dumb.
He can't be doing this if his own volition. I mean, he could be but I hope he isn't (even though I'm a grown up and know that, no, he probably is doing it of his own volition. And thus, making me sad.)
posted by From Bklyn at 2:53 PM on October 2, 2016


> "Giuliani: Trump 'better for the United States than a woman'"

Holy shit.
posted by kyrademon at 2:54 PM on October 2, 2016 [32 favorites]


What's funny is that I tend to believe that Giuliani meant to say "a woman who" rather than "a woman and", which is a common enough thing when you're in a rush. But I also believe he's pretty damn cozy with what it sounds like he said. Hell of a time for a Freudian slip.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:54 PM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]


it's Sunday morning, so which former Trump adviser do you think is texting me to tell me everyone, including @thedailybeast staff, hates me?

You're saying everyone hates me? I keep making the Scientology comparison, but it really fits.
posted by honestcoyote at 2:59 PM on October 2, 2016


If you're on Instagram and enjoy Hillary Clinton and/or throwback fashion photos, @hillarylooks is a great account to follow. This one is my favorite so far. (There are just so many delightful ones!)

I know it's important to recognize that scrutiny of Clinton's clothing, looks, hair, etc is gendered, sexist, and something male candidates don't face. But I also think...as a woman, particularly one who loves playing with fashion and styling, I love appreciating that side of her. It does make me feel uneasy, particularly after watching the Frontline episode that described how she made herself over (weight loss, makeup, different clothing) as part of her effort to win voters back in Arkansas (obviously that entire situation was sexist as hell). A male friend of mine jokingly asked during the debate whether he was allowed to say Clinton looked fabulous in her red pantsuit...but SHE DID, is the thing! I feel myself suppressing the joy I feel at looking at her and thinking "she looks great, and vibrant, and her hair is so beautifully coiffed that it's like a suit of armor, and she's about to kick some Trump ass!" I guess it's a difficult line to walk in a culture in which women are taught to express our inner selves through styling/grooming in a way men don't have to, and then a lot of us learn to take pleasure in doing so, or at least to master it such a way that it does say something about us...Is anyone else feeling conflicted about this?
posted by sallybrown at 3:06 PM on October 2, 2016 [62 favorites]


it's Sunday morning, so which former Trump adviser do you think is texting me to tell me everyone, including @thedailybeast staff, hates me?

You're saying everyone hates me? I keep making the Scientology comparison, but it really fits.


Lewandowski (who's my guess as the former Trump advisor) seems like one of those guys who sees a beautiful woman, assumes he has no shot, and so takes it on himself to treat her like shit from the get go as "punishment" for a rejection that never happened. Except then he gets drunk and makes passes over Facebook Messenger, which he later (after sobering up) claims was "just a joke because I would never date you anyways."
posted by sallybrown at 3:10 PM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]


I like the animated GIF on Clinton's 404 page. Hard to imagine Trump using an image that makes him look silly.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:10 PM on October 2, 2016 [42 favorites]


Hard to imagine Trump using an image that makes him look silly.

Really? I'd agree it's hard to imagine Trump using an image that he thinks would make him look silly but otherwise it's been non stop silly for years.
posted by juiceCake at 3:17 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


" I guess it's a difficult line to walk in a culture in which women are taught to express our inner selves through styling/grooming in a way men don't have to, and then a lot of us learn to take pleasure in doing so, or at least to master it such a way that it does say something about us...Is anyone else feeling conflicted about this?"

I've commented to several people that I look forward to the time twenty years in the future when some academic will write a kick-ass book deconstructing Clinton's fashion, makeup, and hair choices during this campaign (and prior ones). It feels a little too fraught to me to have in depth conversations about it now, but I think she and her team are doing really great and really interesting work for a high-profile woman in the public sphere who is aging relatively naturally (and gracefully) and has the hips of a woman who's given birth and the face of a woman who hasn't had Hollywood work done and so on. It's interesting because it's so unprecedented on such a large scale -- we just don't see that many post-menopausal woman in the public sphere, and usually as celebrities or wives rather than politicians or CEOs or what have you -- and because she has faced so much criticism about her personal presentation over so many years.

Anyway, yeah, there is a corner of my brain devoted to appreciating what great work she and her team are doing fashion-wise and it is holding that thought for future enjoyment when it won't feel quite so sexist/distracting from the serious issues of the campaign to talk about it in depth.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:18 PM on October 2, 2016 [53 favorites]


Wait. Underneath the misogynistic lead / Freudian slip, Giuliani said this:
"Then she mentioned the woman’s name, the model’s name, and then she made it appear as if [moderator] Lester Holt had brought it up. She had obviously been programmed to bring that up," Giuliani said.
But in the actual debate, she never made it appear as though Lester Holt had brought up Machado - that was only in the Saturday Night Live cold open. Did Giuliani just confuse reality with SNL? Or am I missing something?
posted by Chanther at 3:19 PM on October 2, 2016 [92 favorites]


(p.s. my dream Election Night outfit is a replica of that pink suit from the "Women's rights are human rights" speech.)
posted by sallybrown at 3:19 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Then she mentioned the woman’s name, the model’s name, and then she made it appear as if [moderator] Lester Holt had brought it up. She had obviously been programmed to bring that up," Giuliani said. (emphasis added)

So not only did she do this in an underhanded way (according to Rudy), it wasn't even her idea to do it? So Hillary is both deceitful and a puppet for someone else?
posted by sallybrown at 3:22 PM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


I know how you feel, sallybrown. When I canvassed today we got a stack of brochures where the cover image was Hillary touring a factory in New Hampshire. She wore a suit with this great boiled-wool swing coat that had pink pockets and collar, and the first words out of my mouth were "I want that coat." I had to step back and ask myself "is that okay?" It's a complicated issue, I think.
posted by pxe2000 at 3:23 PM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


Did Giuliani just confuse reality with SNL? Or am I missing something?

She segued from Holt's question about Trump questioning her "presidential look" to the Machado stuff. It was a change of subject, but that kind of move is pretty standard in presidential debates. You look for an opportunity to move to what you want to talk about and you take it.
posted by EarBucket at 3:23 PM on October 2, 2016


"she had obviously been programmed to bring that up"

I love it. I love how they can never goddamn decide what she is: too incompetent, weak, and frail to lead, or a brilliant schemer who orchestrates global catastrophes and hides evidence so well that even a dozen Congressional hearings can't dredge anything up that sticks. She's a calculating power-mad genius who's too stupid to leave her husband and has to be programmed like a machine to participate in a debate? Really? I mean...
posted by palomar at 3:24 PM on October 2, 2016 [48 favorites]


I hope all Trump's paid liars (and they know that's what they are) got the money up front. When he loses, they're going to have to ask themselves if it was worth it. Pretty much the only thing I can think they will have is the money or jobs at Fox. And we already know he doesn't pay if he "isn't satisfied" with the results.
posted by ctmf at 3:33 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is, perhaps, minor, in regards to Clinton's clothing choice, but did anyone else notice that she did not wear the American Flag pin during the first debate that has been de rigeur since 9/11?

On the one hand, I can't really see where she would have worn it. On the other hand, I hope it was a statement of, "really, that schtick was tired when it started and it is time to realize our patriotism does not rest on a lapel pin we wear."
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 3:35 PM on October 2, 2016 [37 favorites]


Also worth noting that publishing unauthorized tax returns is a felony, maybe it was a test to see if journalists were serious about taking a risk in publishing before handing over even more documents.

The NYT already has more documents than those they've released. Release some, wait for responses from the campaign, release more, drip drip drip.
posted by Justinian at 3:36 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


This is, perhaps, minor, in regards to Clinton's clothing choice, but did anyone else notice that she did not wear the American Flag pin during the first debate that has been de rigeur since 9/11?

I did, if only because it was the sole rebuttal to Clinton's debate performance that appeared from my Trumpist relatives on my FB feed. One commenter pointed out that Obummer never wears one, either, and if I had bothered to go out and find pictures of him doing just that and link them, they would no doubt have all been photoshops. So it goes.
posted by Countess Elena at 3:44 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, the rhetorical move of "she was programmed" is fairly obvious and standard fare. It's them trying to turn a positive (Clinton actually prepared for the debate and had examples at her command) into a negative ("she was programmed" - which neatly denies Clinton any agency of her own and also hints at cold calculation and conspiracy). Gross, particularly in the context of the rest of the interview, but it didn't surprise me that Giuliani would phrase it that way.

But I don't see anything in the debate which can be spun as "she mentioned the woman’s name, the model’s name, and then made it appear as though Lester Holt had brought it up." That's simply not how it went down in that segment. Holt was going to move on, and Clinton jumped in calling Trump on replacing "looks" with "stamina" and then used Machado as an example of Trump's tendency to go after looks.

On the other hand, the SNL cold open has exactly that turn of events: "Clinton" out of nowhere says Machado's name, "Holt" asks for clarification, and then "Clinton" proceeds as though the whole topic of Machado were initiated by Holt.

Giuliani's statement there doesn't describe the debate very well, but it does describe the SNL skit quite precisely, and made me wonder whether Giuliani had confused or deliberately conflated the real debate with the SNL skit.
posted by Chanther at 3:46 PM on October 2, 2016 [15 favorites]


With the leak of only the first page of tax returns, I wonder who and when the obvious "long form tax returns" demand (that gets play in mainstream media) will come from. (It's already all over twitter.)
posted by fragmede at 3:49 PM on October 2, 2016


I am imagining Marla and Tiffany saying together: "We. Owe. You. PAIN" as they put the tax return into the mailboxes. Go angry Willows, go.
posted by angrycat at 3:52 PM on October 2, 2016 [21 favorites]


I love it. I love how they can never goddamn decide what she is: too incompetent, weak, and frail to lead, or a brilliant schemer who orchestrates global catastrophes and hides evidence so well that even a dozen Congressional hearings can't dredge anything up that sticks. She's a calculating power-mad genius who's too stupid to leave her husband and has to be programmed like a machine to participate in a debate? Really? I mean...

"When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers of Ur-Fascism must also be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy." - Umberto Eco in Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:53 PM on October 2, 2016 [63 favorites]


Which, PS, read that whole Blackshirt essay if you want to be really freaked the fuck out. It was written in 1995, but you'd be forgiven for thinking it was written about this election specifically...
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:54 PM on October 2, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Pretty boy" isn't the right term for Hannity. "Dickhead" is a lot closer. He looks like a dickhead. In fact, were i to never hear anything he said, or even if he was vlogging about macrame from a trailer-park port-a-potty he would still look like a dickhead.

Maybe its the haircut.
posted by lkc at 3:54 PM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


Rudy Giuliani : Donald Trump :: The Iraqi Information Minister : Saddam Hussein

The only problem with this analogy is that basically everyone in Trump's campaign is the Iraqi Information Minister, including Trump himself.

It's Baghdad Bobs all the way down.

(Baghdads Bob?)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:03 PM on October 2, 2016 [14 favorites]


"I am imagining Marla and Tiffany saying together: "We. Owe. You. PAIN" as they put the tax return into the mailboxes. Go angry Willows, go."

I'm imagining Marla stepping up and saying, "Oh, those old joint returns? By all means, publish away!"
posted by klarck at 4:04 PM on October 2, 2016 [12 favorites]


Looked like Rudy sat on his glasses just before the interview.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:07 PM on October 2, 2016


Metafilter: vlogging about macrame from a trailer-park port-a-potty
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:14 PM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


Maybe its the haircut.

No, it's the face.

But I'd like to point out that it wouldn't be so bad right now if the press hadn't fscked around for a year to jack up clicks and such.

There are forty news cycles left. And one of them will get eaten by the VP debate.
posted by petebest at 4:15 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


More tantalizing speculation about the origins of the Trump tax returns:
@bmax: @7im Want to up that speculation? Look at the sticky arrow location on signature line:
That tweet links to a zoom-in of the signature lines where you can still see the little sticky-note arrow pointing towards Marla Maples' signature, suggesting that this copy came from someone in her camp (if not from Maples herself).
posted by mhum at 4:18 PM on October 2, 2016 [17 favorites]


Well, and indeed if a joint return she is fully within her rights to release it. So Shakespearean. Or Sophoclean even. Or reality TVian.

How delicious this soup is!
posted by spitbull at 4:24 PM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]


It would be so delicious if the epitome of white man posturing and entitlement and sexism was brought down by women.
posted by ultranos at 4:25 PM on October 2, 2016 [59 favorites]


It was a change of subject, but that kind of move is pretty standard in presidential debates.

I don't think it was a change of subject at all. The subject is how men feel like they have the right to critique women's appearance in ways that have nothing to do with their actual human qualities. Donald Trump's standard for looking presidential is literally impossible for a woman to meet, because his standard for women's looks requires them to be very young, very slim, and very sexualized, and looking like that would also be considered "wrong" for the presidency.

These are not separate matters. How Trump treats any one woman is a reflection of how Trump regards women, generally. Hillary's looks are just the latest in a long series of women he's felt entitled to critique because he's a man in a position of power.
posted by Sequence at 4:27 PM on October 2, 2016 [22 favorites]


That's the plan, ultranos. See you in November.
posted by Dashy at 4:27 PM on October 2, 2016 [16 favorites]


Well, and indeed if a joint return she is fully within her rights to release it.

Do we actually know that to be the case? I'm genuinely asking--I have no idea, but it seems as probable that you'd need consent from both parties.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:29 PM on October 2, 2016




The Daily Beast ‘The Trump Rule’: Leaked Audio of Trump Ogling Miss USA Beauty Queens
West Virginia, West Virginia—get over here. Beautiful,” utters Trump. “I knew a girl from West Virginia once—she drove me crazy…I loved her. She had no makeup, no nothing. They didn’t know about makeup. You know, in West Virginia, they didn’t know about makeup, they didn’t know about cellulite. Just beautiful.”

Trump is then heard explaining “The Trump Rule”—and implementing it.

“As I told you, many of you have already been chosen—so it doesn’t even matter. But as the Miss Universe Organization and the Miss USA Organization, we get to choose a certain number,” he said. “You know why we do that? Because years ago when I first bought it, we chose ten people—I chose none. And I get here, and the most beautiful people were never chosen! And I went nuts!”

“So we call it ‘The Trump Rule,’” he added. “It’s called The Trump Rule—and we get to choose.”
In 1996 he owned the Miss Teen USA, Miss Universe, and Miss USA pageants.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:38 PM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


MM might also be under an NDA as part of the divorce settlement or matters related. If this does end up in court, it'll be highly interesting.

In the UK, if someone gets wind of a newspaper intending to publish something based on information that may not have been legitimately obtained, it's possible to get the story injuncted. Is that true in the US?
posted by Devonian at 4:40 PM on October 2, 2016


More tantalizing speculation about the origins of the Trump tax returns:
@bmax: @7im Want to up that speculation? Look at the sticky arrow location on signature line:
That tweet links to a zoom-in of the signature lines where you can still see the little sticky-note arrow pointing towards Marla Maples' signature, suggesting that this copy came from someone in her camp (if not from Maples herself).


mfw
posted by Talez at 4:46 PM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


Did Donald Trump Dodge Taxes? | AM Joy | MSNBC

Panel includes David Cay Johnston, who believes he may have dodged taxes for forty years.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:56 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


In the UK, if someone gets wind of a newspaper intending to publish something based on information that may not have been legitimately obtained, it's possible to get the story injuncted. Is that true in the US?

In the U.S. prior restraint is prohibited except in a very few limited cases involving national security or judicial proceedings. That does not prohibit subsequent legal action as punishment for publishing unprotected speech. The prohibition against prior restraint is based on the idea that it is better to punish unprotected speech afterwords rather than hinder any possible protected speech pre-emptively.
posted by JackFlash at 4:57 PM on October 2, 2016 [12 favorites]


"Finally. Someone who thinks like me."

The sad thing is that she shouldn't have any trouble finding people like her, who sincerely believe that Barack Obama is a gay Kenyan Muslim, Michelle Obama is a man, the Obama children were kidnapped, InfoWars is a source of truth, the White House had Joan Rivers murdered, and martial law and guillotines are on the horizon.

She has a computer and an AM radio.
posted by delfin at 5:01 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


I know the stakes are high this year but man o man I am enjoying seeing this jackass get taken down. Cuba, sexism, taxes, ghoulish fascination over 20-year old blowjobs....

I was thinking the other day- remember how there was speculation his whole campaign was a false flag op to get Hillary elected? Well, maybe it is but has nothing to do with her. Maybe Donnie is actually smart and gives a shit, and his whole campaign is a false flag to destroy the GOP once and for all, to force a change from the gridlock by so damaging one of our big parties (the stupid one, as he said himself) that is no longer a force, and the center and left can get on with dealing with the challenges of the next several hundred years....

Nah, he's just a jackass.
posted by vrakatar at 5:06 PM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


she had obviously been programmed to bring that up

It's easier for some people to believe that Clinton some kind of super-advanced AI – when even Google is struggling to get Google Translate to yield acceptable results – rather than accept that Clinton is a good competent politician that Trump is having a hard time with because he isn't.
posted by nangar at 5:07 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think the most famous "prior restraint" case is the Pentagon Papers case in 1971, and even then the NYT had already published 3 installments before the Feds asked for an injunction. The Supreme Court eventually refused the injunction 6-3, but gave 9 different reasons why.

Anyway, that was national security, not a private citizen.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 5:08 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'd love it if Lebron showed up for the Akron speech, unveiling of economic plan and voter registration event.

Since he just endorsed Clinton, that seems... not unlikely.
posted by holgate at 5:12 PM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]


You know, in West Virginia, they didn’t know about makeup, they didn’t know about cellulite.

where do I sign up
posted by sallybrown at 5:12 PM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


From LeBron James's endorsement:
I’m so proud of the more than 1,100 students in my Wheels for Education and Akron I PROMISE Network programs. We’re working on year six now, and my kids have big plans for their futures.

A lot of them didn’t think college was for them, but now I hear they want to become things like doctors and business owners. We even have a future astrophysicist. I can’t wait to see how far these kids can go.

I also tell all my kids how important it is that they give back to the community. Because if basketball has taught me anything, it’s that no one achieves greatness alone. And it takes everyone working together to create real change.

When I look at this year’s presidential race, it’s clear which candidate believes the same thing. Only one person running truly understands the struggles of an Akron child born into poverty. And when I think about the kinds of policies and ideas the kids in my foundation need from our government, the choice is clear.

That candidate is Hillary Clinton.
posted by sallybrown at 5:21 PM on October 2, 2016 [86 favorites]


Aw man I was holding out to like LJ but fine. He knows more about communication than Hillary's Opponent.
posted by petebest at 5:27 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Anyone who is 100% pro Hillary I'm all like yeaaaaaaaaaaah insta besties

Anyone who is less than 100% pro Hillary I'm like wha??? What happened you used to be cool??????

Anyone who is pro-trump I'm like huh????? You dumb
posted by ian1977 at 5:35 PM on October 2, 2016 [12 favorites]


Ps 100% pro Hillary also includes reasonable room to not agree with 800% of what she says. I mean vote wise.
posted by ian1977 at 5:36 PM on October 2, 2016 [12 favorites]




My only question is..


You thirsty, Donald?
posted by ian1977 at 5:40 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


@BRios82:
#LastTimeTrumpPaidTaxes Hillary was fighting for universal healthcare.
posted by salix at 5:50 PM on October 2, 2016 [35 favorites]


I think the best strategy on that town hall debate question site is to ...

1) sort by "most votes

2) scroll through looking for a question you would really like to see asked, and note what page of results it appears on

3) continue scrolling until you find another version of basically the same question with fewer votes

4) copy the URL of this second version of the question

5) go back to the first version and click "suggest merge" and paste in the URL of the second version

6) resume scrolling... if you find a third and fourth version of the question repeat the "suggest merge" procedure

Doing that can result in the question you care about appearing as a single question with 2000 votes, enough to make it into the top 10, instead of a bunch of almost identical questions appearing way down the list, one with 800 votes, one with 600, one with 300, one with 100...
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:56 PM on October 2, 2016 [56 favorites]


So if we're voting on the questions do they feed the audience the questions to ask? Or what?
posted by Justinian at 6:01 PM on October 2, 2016


We are all witnesses.

shiny and chrome
posted by strange chain at 6:01 PM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


GOOD: Donald Trump games the tax system to ludicrous gain
BAD: People might take advantage of Welfare
posted by beerperson at 6:05 PM on October 2, 2016 [29 favorites]


stolyarova: "‘Finally. Someone who thinks like me.’

This is one of the saddest and most touching pieces on the election I've read, and it's worth your time. Equal parts compassionate, heartbreaking, and terrifying. I wish HRC could sit down with this lady and talk to her about getting the care she clearly needs..
"

Brownsville, where that woman lives, is only about an hour south of me here in Pittsburgh but the resurgence that the city has felt in the last fifteen years or so hasn't touched those little old mill towns down the Monongahela. Places likes McKeesport, Donora, Brownsville, Monessen are just dying and I'm not sure that they're saveable. Look at any of the towns or cities on this list of Mon River Valley places and check out the population drops over the last few generations. Steel left and suddenly there was no reason to live there.

Trump comes in and says that he'll bring the mills back and I find it hard to get too mad at people left in those towns for falling for it. He's full of shit of course; the mills have been bulldozed and are never coming back but it's such a seductive idea for people who have had nothing since the factory doors shut that I can see why they'd grasp at any straw.
posted by octothorpe at 6:07 PM on October 2, 2016 [20 favorites]


I mean, LeBron is OK I guess. But he's no Scott Baio.
posted by zakur at 6:11 PM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]


So if we're voting on the questions do they feed the audience the questions to ask? Or what?

In past town halls, I think it's been a mix of questions from live audience members, and pre-selected questions via text (which the moderator reads aloud) and video.

Edit: by "text", I mean the question is shown on a big screen, not that people are sending in questions via SMS
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:13 PM on October 2, 2016


New in the shop at hillaryclinton.com: The cutest Tim Kaine button set!
posted by amarynth at 6:20 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


Giuliani makes me sad. The things he says are so ... sadly dumb.
He can't be doing this if his own volition. I mean, he could be but I hope he isn't (even though I'm a grown up and know that, no, he probably is doing it of his own volition. And thus, making me sad.)


Giuliani has always been like that. He once got worked up into a total snit on a talk show and accused a caller of being crazy because the guy wanted to have a pet ferret.

Literally the only good thing I can say about him was that he managed the crisis phase of 9/11 pretty well, but as for his two mayoral terms before that, and his post-mayoral career after that....fuck that dude.

==

Donald Trump Pointed to 9/11 Attacks in Asking SEC for Leniency During Fraud Probe

....Okay, someone come here to Brooklyn and keep me from leaving the apartment because I am now thisclose to heading to Trump Tower and ripping the man's lips off with a pair of pliers.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:21 PM on October 2, 2016 [23 favorites]


Yes we kaine.



Oh behave.
posted by ian1977 at 6:22 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


Mod note: Rein in the non-sequitors.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 6:24 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


Thomas Geoghegan at In These Times: 3 reasons to vote for Hillary Clinton that have nothing to do with Hillary Clinton:
May I pile on the reasons why even the most bitter Sanders supporter should vote for Clinton? Forget the Supreme Court—it's too obvious. Here are three others:

1. It’s not about Clinton herself. Your vote puts not just Clinton in power but literally thousands of appointees. It may be the deputy administrator in an EPA regional office, or the new director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, or the new policy and strategy chief at U.S. Citizen and Immigration Services—or a new member of the National Labor Relations Board, or even chief number cruncher at the Census Bureau.

[...]

And while there's been enough banging on about that one vacancy in the Supreme Court, think about the lower courts, especially the trial courts. Think of the wage theft or Title VII cases that will be settled—and will keep, say, a pregnant plaintiff out of a homeless shelter. Here's just a passing news item to tell you what these lower courts do: The other day, three federal appellate judges on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit struck down a North Carolina voting law that with "almost surgical precision," to quote the opinion, was intended to keep black Americans from voting. Who were the judges? Three appointed by either Bill Clinton or Barack Obama. If you don't stop restrictive voting laws, how is a Sanders movement ever going to come back?
posted by palindromic at 6:25 PM on October 2, 2016 [42 favorites]


“I know people that are making a tremendous amount of money and paying virtually no taxes, and I think it’s unfair.” - Donald Trump, GOP debate, Sep. 16, 2015 [real]

"Only I should be able to pay virtually no taxes." [fake]
posted by zakur at 6:26 PM on October 2, 2016 [16 favorites]


can someone please sell me a Knope/Gergich 2016 button
posted by theodolite at 6:26 PM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


Stealth marketing opportunity: bars are always in need of bev naps (coasters) and Hill's store is selling these. Buy a few sets and deposite them strategically late October.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:30 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Sometimes things work out............
From: Jxxxx [mailto:jxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 4:22 PM
To: Election Commission 1 
Subject: Question from Web User - Elections

Hi, I filled out the online application for absentee ballot 
last week some time. When will the ballot arrive in my mailbox. 
Thank you!

----------------

From: xxxxx, Lxxxx [mailto:Lxxxx.xxxx0@xxxxxxx.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 1:54 PM
To: xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Dear Joseph, 

Your application was successfully processed,  you will 
receive your voting material after September 29th,  thank you 

Kind Regards, 

Lxxxxx
posted by lampshade at 6:33 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Marla Maples, a pumpkin patch, the Kabbalah, and the tax returns: Is A Cryptic Tweet By Marla Maples a Clue as to Source Behind Trump Tax Leak?
posted by sallybrown at 6:37 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Okay, that cocked-eyebrow smiley face button in the Tim Kaine set was too much for me to resist.
posted by Superplin at 6:38 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


I want the FIRST set of buttons I ordered, Clinton campaign! don't make order more! (i'm ordering them as a gift)
posted by dismas at 6:42 PM on October 2, 2016


I have lost all ability to tell "Might be true" from "psssht, come on now" so sure, Marla Maples is sending cryptic Kabbalah tweets about tax returns, WHY THE FUCK NOT.
posted by emjaybee at 6:43 PM on October 2, 2016 [18 favorites]


Grandpa Voted for Trump, a fake book cover.
posted by palindromic at 6:44 PM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


What is it with silver-haired young villains? They were sexy in anime once, but IRL they turn out to be pathetic woman-hating cowards.

Q.E.D.
posted by krinklyfig at 6:50 PM on October 2, 2016


Not true! There's... Draco Malfoy? And. Um.

Nope. That's it.
posted by asteria at 6:52 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yard sign field report: Drove from the DC area though Maryland, Western Pennsylvania and into Eastern Ohio, intentionally avoiding the turnpike both to save 20$ on tolls and to judge just how many Trump signs were out there. The answer? A fuckton. Saw several "Hilary for Prison" and homemade giant TRUMP NATION signs, and at least one Trump sign every mile or so, sometimes several in a row all together. Essentially zero Hilary signs until I got into the "big cities" of Youngstown and Akron. Didn't actually drive through Pittsburgh, where I assume the Hilary signs are probably at least noticeable.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:53 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


Marla Maples, a pumpkin patch, the Kabbalah, and the tax returns:

Because the only thing this election lacked was the ghost of Whittaker Chambers.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:57 PM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's the great pumpkin you non-believers.
posted by cmfletcher at 7:02 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


THAT TIM KAINE BUTTON SET

...:ahem:

Last week I shot a video with some friends of mine inviting Tim Kaine to busk with me. I wanted to do this for a while, but for a bunch of reasons it took until last week to come together. Had the Kaine buttons come out LAST WEEK I could have had them for the video. AUGH. Oh well.

(Yes, the Boston office knows about my video, and yes, they find it charming.)
posted by pxe2000 at 7:06 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


Western Pennsylvania and into Eastern Ohio, intentionally avoiding the turnpike both to save 20$ on tolls and to judge just how many Trump signs were out there. The answer? A fuckton. Saw several "Hilary for Prison" and homemade giant TRUMP NATION signs, and at least one Trump sign every mile or so, sometimes several in a row all together.

Counterpoint: in Indiana, home of Mike 'Cotton Hill' Pence, there is a surprising dearth of Trump signs relative to previous election years. Trump is an embarrassment to many Republicans here, like a fart in a crowded room, and no one wants to draw particular attention to him.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:11 PM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


"home of Mike 'Cotton Hill' Pence"

OMG CANNOT UNSEE HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:13 PM on October 2, 2016 [13 favorites]


Essentially zero Hilary signs until I got into the "big cities" of Youngstown and Akron.

Those small towns and rural areas can take up a lot of time on a drive and seem huge, but they represent a smaller and smaller part of the actual population. The part that's getting left behind. I don't think it's okay that those people have so easily been drawn into blaming blacks and Mexicans for that predicament, but I put a bunch more responsibility on the media and the GOP than on individual low-educated rural Ohioans who're being steered so obviously.

I think it was only a couple years ago when I finally accepted that, no, I am never moving back home to the town where I grew up, because that place has stopped existing. It wasn't even a "closed the mill" situation--it's just been declining and declining and there's not enough left there for me to go back to. I'm a lot more angry about seeing the Trump signs in Nebraska/Iowa than I would be there, because things around here are just night and day compared to what I saw in Ohio before I left. I feel like the Trump stuff in that part of Ohio is a symptom of Democrats largely ignoring the problems there until very recently, while the GOP was out making hay. The difference in ground game this election gives me better hope for the future, but it takes a long time for those seeds to really grow.
posted by Sequence at 7:14 PM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]


I can assure you that the Hillary signs and stickers are plentiful and getting plentifuller in Pittsburgh (well, at least the parts around the universities that i traverse). It was ever thus in PA. Pittsburgh on one side and Philadelphia on the other with Kentucky in between. And let me tell you the grudge that the middle of the state has against the cities is fierce. The state House generally acts as if they'd like to reenact that Bugs Bunny cartoon where he saws off Florida except whoops the cities are where all the tax revenue comes from. Doesn't stop them from trying to destroy our public transit and school systems.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:19 PM on October 2, 2016 [17 favorites]


Previously reported and previously discussed as a topic, but I haven't seen this one linked (apologies if it has been):

The devil in Donald: How the ghost of ‘evil’ Roy Cohn lives on inside Trump:

But, as close to a snake in nature and look as a human could be, it was lawyer Roy Marcus Cohn who taught Donald Trump how to live.

More specifically, Roy Cohn mentored Trump to:

- abuse the legal system to routinely cheat people;

- dodge paying taxes through use of — to be polite — inventively aggressive techniques.

- exploit falsehoods and innuendo to achieve his goals.

posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:20 PM on October 2, 2016 [11 favorites]


I find it depressing that many, if not most, of the HRC supporters I know are afraid to put up any kind of sign, magnet, or bumper sticker. They are absolutely convinced that some misfortune will be enacted upon them if they were to advertise their preference: car keyed, sign stolen, coworker and/or police mistreatment, getting fired, etc. This level of fear for publicly supporting a mainstream Democrat feels pretty new to me.

We've had our yard sign up and car magnets on for about a week, and have yet to be harassed or treated poorly. We are in a district with a Democratic State Rep, State Senator, US Rep, and both US Senators, so it's less dicey than some exurban Republican enclave. Our city is in the midst of a demographic shift, with a lot more young people and people of color, and there are too many Trump signs around (ie, more than one).

I am glad that we have the social and financial security to publicly support HRC's candidacy, so that our new neighbors know that there are reasonable, decent people around. I hope our family's public participation encourages our friends and family to be bold, for decency's sake and for those whose (valid) fears prevent such public displays.
posted by palindromic at 7:22 PM on October 2, 2016 [15 favorites]


Jack Mitnick coming out of retirement to confirm the tax records when he could have stayed safely on the sidelines makes him the Moonlight Graham of this election.

Kinsella, we miss you, but you are not forgotten!
posted by wenestvedt at 7:26 PM on October 2, 2016 [13 favorites]



I find it depressing that many, if not most, of the HRC supporters I know are afraid to put up any kind of sign, magnet, or bumper sticker. They are absolutely convinced that some misfortune will be enacted upon them if they were to advertise their preference: car keyed, sign stolen, coworker and/or police mistreatment, getting fired, etc. This level of fear for publicly supporting a mainstream Democrat feels pretty new to me.


My yard signs from the county Democratic party went up today, downticket races as well as Clinton, and I have discussed with a friend the worry that the Clinton sign will just walk off (at best). It does feel like something more daring than usual, just putting up a yard sign, even in my heavily Democratic neighborhood. This weekend was distribution from the local party and mine is the only sign on my street. I'll get an idea about the rest of the area tomorrow.
posted by dilettante at 7:30 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Christie advises Trump on town-hall tactics ahead of second debate:
New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie (R), who has hosted countless forums with voters and is widely considered one of the GOP’s most talented performers in that setting, spent Sunday advising Donald Trump ahead of the upcoming town-hall debate, according to Rudolph W. Giuliani.
...
Giuliani described the conversations over salad and sandwiches as intense but informal. He said Trump sat with Christie, Priebus and his “usual group” but did not hold a mock town-hall debate.

“That’s the way he likes to do it. That’s the way he’s most comfortable preparing,” Giuliani said of the circle of friends and staff members.
So Trump is once again "preparing" for a debate in a format he has limited experience in without practicing in the format. Good plan. Other than the Commander in Chief thing, has he ever been in a town hall debate taking questions from the audience?
posted by kirkaracha at 7:35 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


Justin Peters at Slate: The Ballad of Balloon Boy:
The homecoming would happen shortly, but the story itself was an epic, full of twists and turns. By the end of the day, we had learned that Balloon Boy had never been inside the balloon, that he had been home all along, hiding in an attic. By the end of the week, we had learned that his unscrupulous parents had probably staged the entire thing as a stunt to stoke interest in a possible reality show. Today, the Balloon Boy saga is remembered, if at all, as a weird artifact from a mildly simpler time, a moment when the media gatekeepers were briefly and harmlessly fooled by a particularly cunning specimen of indigenous American fame whore. We were tricked; we laughed it off; we learned nothing. It happens.

But that summation sells Balloon Boy short. The Balloon Boy story crystallizes the problem of cable news in one historically stupid moment. Balloon Boy happened because CNN and its competitors couldn’t help it from happening, because the production demands of a 24-hour news network left it vulnerable to the chicanery of an unscrupulous jerk. It deserves to be remembered as the moment when cable news emerged from its chrysalis and became the entity it was genetically destined to become: a fundamentally unjournalistic medium uniquely susceptible to the wheedlings of vain and manipulative grifters, condemned to follow shiny objects until the end of time. Sometimes those shiny objects are balloons. Sometimes they’re loudmouths with dumb opinions. And sometimes they’re presidential candidates.
posted by palindromic at 7:39 PM on October 2, 2016 [41 favorites]


Marla Maples, a pumpkin patch, the Kabbalah, and the tax returns: Is A Cryptic Tweet By Marla Maples a Clue as to Source Behind Trump Tax Leak?

I don't really understand like any of this, but the pumpkin patch evokes the "Pumpkin Papers," documents from the Alger Hiss case that were at one point hidden inside a pumpkin.

Or maybe she just tweeted some random kabbalah stuff and it has nothing to do with anything.
posted by zachlipton at 7:40 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


If Trump takes Christie's advice on how to act during a town hall, it's not going to play well inside of New Jersey, let alone outside of it.
posted by mollweide at 7:42 PM on October 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mike 'Cotton Hill' Pence

I would've gone with Clutch Cargo myself, but that's pretty good too.
posted by Old Kentucky Shark at 7:43 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Grandpa Voted for Trump, a fake book cover.

From the source, national treasure Paperback Paradise (previously)
posted by Existential Dread at 7:47 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


If Trump takes Christie's advice on how to act during a town hall, every audience member who asks a tough question will drive home from the debate to discover the highway offramp serving their neighborhood has been closed down.
posted by zachlipton at 7:47 PM on October 2, 2016 [18 favorites]


Hillary Clinton: ‘My worries are not the same as black grandmothers’:
“I’m a grandmother, and like every grandmother, I worry about the safety and security of my grandchildren, but my worries are not the same as black grandmothers, who have different and deeper fears about the world that their grandchildren face,” Clinton said.

Clinton described testimony that Taje Gaddy, 10, and Zianna Oliphant, 9, gave last week before the Charlotte City Council about violence in their community. Clinton later summoned Oliphant to join her on the stage.

“I wouldn’t be able to stand it if my grandchildren had to be scared and worried the way too many children across our country feel right now. But because my grandchildren are white, because they are the grandchildren of a former president and secretary of state, let’s be honest here, they won’t face the kind of fear that we heard from the children testifying before the city council,” Clinton said.
posted by palindromic at 8:03 PM on October 2, 2016 [66 favorites]


I'll repost my father in law's advice on keeping your yard sign. He's a lifelong Democrat who lives in rural central PA, so he knows all about yard sign warfare. His technique is to drive the stakes down really far into the ground and then heavily coat the rest in axel grease. Make it so anyone who tries to yank it can't get enough leverage to get it out.

There is one Trump yard sign house in my neighborhood and all i can think of is "Man that has got to be awkward for the [in all likelihood black] neighbors." Like, where do you think you are living, homes?
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:06 PM on October 2, 2016 [9 favorites]


I wouldn't go so far as to think that Marla Maples was alluding to the Pumpkin Papers when a simple reference to the color orange is enough to explain it.
posted by maggiemaggie at 8:06 PM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


As per Urban Dictionary from a 2007 entry, a pumpkin patch is a group of fake-tanned people who never socialize with anyone outside the group.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:08 PM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


And Deplorable Donald Trump would be The Great Pumpkin? Or just The Grating Pumpkin?
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:14 PM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


He's a lifelong Democrat who lives in rural central PA, so he knows all about yard sign warfare.

This type of thing does seem to cut both ways.
posted by Flashman at 8:17 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Stop Pretending You Don’t Know Why People Hate Hillary Clinton (Larry Womack at HuffPo)
posted by salix at 8:19 PM on October 2, 2016 [16 favorites]


mattdidthat, I have tea all over my keyboard now!
posted by mochapickle at 8:27 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Kind of boring until it gets lit...
posted by biogeo at 8:29 PM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump, Gingrich, and Guliani need to get up and do a wet t-shirt contest press conference already.

1. NO. No, no, no they do not.
2. The way this election's been going, be careful what you wish for.
3. The contest would end with all 3 of them yelling about the temperature of the water, who got doused more than the others, and how rigged the applause meter was.
4. You owe me, like, a gajillion gallons of brain bleach.
5. Christie would need to be the referee. Or possibly Hannity.
6. NO. Just NO MAKE IT STOP.
posted by PlusDistance at 8:37 PM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]


Orange on the outside, hollow on the inside, rotten and thrown out in early November? Yes. A Trumpkin.

Can we hope for a surprise defeat of Trump by Squirrel Girl then?
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:46 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


With all this talk about new stuff in the HRC shop, just thought it time for an update on my order, placed 05 August: STILL NOTHING.

C'MON.
posted by rp at 8:50 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


I feel like the Trump stuff in that part of Ohio is a symptom of Democrats largely ignoring the problems there until very recently, while the GOP was out making hay.

Up to a point. The Dems can throw money at education and training, but that means people will leave. And the GOP has always been able to draw upon social issues and "Those People will get all the money" to starve the beast. You can encourage new people to come into those areas, but that's at the cost of social cohesion in communities that have been largely homogeneous -- or statically heterogenous -- for half a century. At some point the specifics of what people are asking for begins to resemble a kind of cargo cult or historical reenactment: a 1950s version of Colonial Williamsburg.

You see small declining towns offering tax incentives in exchange for jobs, and while that can sometimes work, it's more often a race to the bottom, undermining the local tax base and also signalling to local businesses that they might get more breaks if they threaten to leave and actively court other locations than if they stay.

This is one of the Hard Problems of the 21st century for developed nations.
posted by holgate at 8:51 PM on October 2, 2016 [19 favorites]


I so much want somebody to mash up Hillary as The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl RIGHT NOW (who hits the comic book stores with the graphic novel "Squirrel Girl Beats Up the Marvel Universe" a couple days after the Town Hall Debate).
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:54 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't really understand like any of this

Marla Maples was with family (and Tiffany Trump, her daughter with Donald) in Georgia until 9/20, when she came back to NYC. The following day (9/21), she did an interview with Daily Beast reporter Olivia Nuzzi (who's on the Trump Beat), resulting in this piece, in which Nuzzi asks Maples about what Maples said re: Donald and the Presidency in 1999: “If he is really serious about being president and runs in the general election next year, I will not be silent... I will feel it is my duty as an American citizen to tell the people what he is really like.” It's clear from the interview that Maples is torn between her desire to support Tiffany building a relationship with her (fucking manipulative and horrible) father and her distaste for Trump's policies/campaign. Maples is very into spiritual woo and what she considers "karma" and the like. ("This is the game Maples will have to play if she continues to resolve to use the attention Trump affords her to promote what she views as her true self, and she knows it. 'How can I use this labeling so to speak, this opportunity, for the sake of higher good?' she said. 'That’s the question.'").

Two days later - September 23 - NYT reporter Suzanne Craig finds an envelope in her office mailbox postmarked from NYC with a return address of Trump tower, inside of which are the now-infamous 1995 tax return documents. She gets to work on verifying authenticity.

Also going on at the same time - the Trump campaign appears to be prepping Tiffany for rollout as a surrogate, by cleaning up her Instagram and the like. The NYT ends up publishing a profile on Tiffany, on October 1. Tiffany cooperates with the photo shoot and by providing a list of references the NYT can contact, but is not herself interviewed in the piece. Maples is interviewed throughout and provides a number of extremely shade-filled (but gentle) quotes in which she makes clear Trump had no part in raising her daughter.

Later on the very same day, the NYT publishes its tax return bombshell. Twitter quickly notices that one of the documents includes a signature flag next to Maples's printed name. While the NYT piece mentions seeking a comment from Trump, there is no mention of seeking a comment from Maples (whose returns these were also).

Today, October 2, Maples tweets a woo message about pumpkin patches, Kabbalah, and the birthday of Adam and Eve (which I have no ability to explain). A Twitter user responds to that tweet saying "TFW [that feeling when] you serve up a cold plate of revenge and then appreciate fall as you think about Etz Hayim, the Shekinah & Isaac ben Luria." A second Twitter user responds to that message, including Maples's username, to say "@MarcACaputo @itsmarlamaples wow. How do u know abt those stuff?" Maples then responds "A lot of studying & an open mind to learn."
posted by sallybrown at 9:03 PM on October 2, 2016 [48 favorites]


In non-Trump news, here’s Chris Geidner at Buzzfeed: “Tim Kaine’s Long, Conflicted History With The Death Penalty”
posted by Going To Maine at 9:10 PM on October 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think "Breathe it in as if 2day's the first day of your life" may be the part of Marla Maples's tweet that's supposed to be the hint?
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 9:13 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Just home from dinner with my family for Rosh Hashanah. Received confirmation that my brother (39) is voting for the Cheeto Benito. My dad "doesn't know yet." He said he might not vote at all. I'm completely overwhelmed. My brother was spouting off Fox news lies. Both of them think Hillary is going to prison. My brother is convinced that the foundation only gives 5% of their funds to actual charity. I'm mortified having people I'm related to believe this bullshit and I'm shocked at how thoroughly they've been brainwashed. I mean, they all know that my husband and I are queer and they know he has HIV. I can't figure out if they don't understand what a Trump presidency would mean for us, or if they just don't care. I've just got to come to terms with the fact that two of my family members are racist, sexist, homophobic assholes and I can't do anything about that. Really having a bad night.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:14 PM on October 2, 2016 [68 favorites]


Trump’s lawyer, Jay Goldberg, was even harsher in his criticism of Maples, saying, “The 15 minutes of glory ended when she left Donald’s side. So this is a perfect way to attract publicity. All of her actions stand for the proposition ‘Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.’”

Question for the upcoming town hall debate:

"Mr. Trump, for many years, but especially in the last few weeks, you've been heaping scorn on women. How's that working out for you?"
posted by The Tensor at 9:20 PM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


Christie advises Trump on town-hall tactics ahead of second debate:

Never vote for me or my son ever again
posted by Going To Maine at 9:22 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


John Oliver on the year 2016 (or, in sympathy for Sophie1's bad night, 5776): "What did I do to deserve this? I always tried to be a good person is this because I stole candy once in 4th grade please stop punishing us 2016."
posted by zachlipton at 9:25 PM on October 2, 2016 [6 favorites]


For any other Marlaology students out there, this 1990 profile of her by Maureen Orth is really something else:
When Marla was just sixteen, for example, she and her mother were approached by Playboy to pose nude in a mother-daughter spread. Marla, who read the Good Book every night before she went to bed in tiny Dalton, Georgia, would have none of it. Besides, she wasn’t old enough. “The Playboy people were very depressed because I was too young.” But Daddy, Stan Maples, a small-time subdivider, a deacon in the Baptist Church with a golden tenor, and a regionally famous Elvis imitator to boot, felt otherwise, even though he and Marla’s mama were getting divorced at the time. “It was a tough period and my dad was saying just go for it, what the heck, but even then I knew that wasn’t the way I wanted to be represented. I wanted to be respected, number one.”
As much of a piece of crap as Donald is, his wives seem to be interesting, quick, hardworking people.
posted by sallybrown at 9:29 PM on October 2, 2016 [14 favorites]


Reminder that Marla Maples wrote a tell-all book about her marriage which was quietly quashed months before publication.

The fact that the second half of the article in that link is about a Zodiac killer (not the famous one) may or may not prove that this universe is a malfunctioning simulation
posted by theodolite at 9:31 PM on October 2, 2016 [10 favorites]


At some point the specifics of what people are asking for begins to resemble a kind of cargo cult or historical reenactment: a 1950s version of Colonial Williamsburg.

20+ years ago, the Democratic Party needed to start working on getting people used to the idea that the old idea of our small Rust Belt towns was going away, and that people were going to need to learn how to form new communities, and that those new communities were also capable of being very nice and everybody was going to be okay. Republicans acted like we could get it all back if we just hated people who were different, and Democrats did reasonably well by young people but not by providing a path that their parents could visualize to things being okay.

Especially because people in those towns, in this time period, were heavily encouraged to wrap up a huge portion of their savings in their houses, the value of which has now tanked and can't recover if nobody wants to live in those places. Your kids could move away, but what were you supposed to do?

The up side is that there is actually a way better path opening up in the NEXT 20 or so years as decent jobs stop being tied to your ability to commute to the office and city dwellers realize they can buy, like, three houses for what they've got in their couch cushions. But it's going to be bumpy getting there.
posted by Sequence at 9:32 PM on October 2, 2016 [9 favorites]


I find it depressing that many, if not most, of the HRC supporters I know are afraid to put up any kind of sign, magnet, or bumper sticker. They are absolutely convinced that some misfortune will be enacted upon them if they were to advertise their preference: car keyed, sign stolen, coworker and/or police mistreatment, getting fired, etc. This level of fear for publicly supporting a mainstream Democrat feels pretty new to me.

Everyone I know who has put up a Hillary yard sign or put a Hillary sticker/magnet on their car has either had their stuff stolen or vandalized. Sample size of 6 people, in areas ranging from the greater Seattle area to Denver to Ohio to Maryland.

There was a house around the corner from me, up here in Everett where Trump had a rally a little over a month ago, that just started displaying a Hillary sign in their yard last week along with signs for local Dem races. I just drove by that house fifteen minutes ago -- all the other signs are there but the Hillary sign is gone.

I'm glad that no one has vandalized your stuff, but it is actually happening to other people, and to be honest I'm kind of tired of people pooh-poohing the fears that others might have about having their property stolen, vandalized, or being verbally or physically assaulted themselves.
posted by palomar at 9:33 PM on October 2, 2016 [29 favorites]


I find it depressing that many, if not most, of the HRC supporters I know are afraid to put up any kind of sign, magnet, or bumper sticker.

I got a mug! Maybe I can sneak it into coffee shops and decant my drinks into it.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:36 PM on October 2, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is anyone else kind of getting sick eating all this popcorn watching Cheetoh Jesus self-immolate?
posted by vuron at 9:42 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


Not me, I'm still hyperventilating about the possibilities of him magically turning things around somehow.
posted by infinitywaltz at 9:46 PM on October 2, 2016 [22 favorites]


Not me.
posted by mazola at 9:46 PM on October 2, 2016


> Later on the very same day, the NYT publishes its tax return bombshell. Twitter quickly notices that one of the documents includes a signature flag next to Maples's printed name. While the NYT piece mentions seeking a comment from Trump, there is no mention of seeking a comment from Maples (whose returns these were also).

This is amazing and I hope it is true.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:47 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is anyone else kind of getting sick eating all this popcorn watching Cheetoh Jesus self-immolate?

I'm not eating a kernel until the polls show a self-immolation. Right now the hatred for Hillary is so deeply ingrained in the nation I wouldn't be surprised to see the polls stay steady or even tighten in coming weeks. Remember how people respond when their views are challenged by clear evidence -- they dig in.
posted by argybarg at 9:51 PM on October 2, 2016 [14 favorites]


> I find it depressing that many, if not most, of the HRC supporters I know are afraid to put up any kind of sign, magnet, or bumper sticker. They are absolutely convinced that some misfortune will be enacted upon them if they were to advertise their preference: car keyed, sign stolen, coworker and/or police mistreatment, getting fired, etc. This level of fear for publicly supporting a mainstream Democrat feels pretty new to me.

I have my signs up, but I'm in Portland.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:51 PM on October 2, 2016




Here is a video of a flashmob doing pantsuit power dance for Clinton. Made me smile.
posted by frumiousb at 10:02 PM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]


HRC (with help from Bernie) hits Trump on the tax return in a brand new ad. (This is from The Briefing series, but it's on Twitter only right now, not on The Briefing site or YouTube. Do not read the comments.)
posted by maudlin at 10:06 PM on October 2, 2016 [13 favorites]


Sophie1, I was at a family party this weekend and the political conversations were really hard. I like to be perfectly calm if I talk about politics with my family, take the high road, never interrupt, blah blah blah. Usually I can manage to do that. This year it turns out that I can't.
posted by gerstle at 10:12 PM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


With all this talk about new stuff in the HRC shop, just thought it time for an update on my order, placed 05 August: STILL NOTHING.

C'MON.


I ordered a shirt for me and my mom on July 28th and they just came on Tuesday. She was really happy since they came the day before she went to volunteer for Hillary's campaign. She has wore the shirt everyday since she got it since the guy she lives with is one of the irrational Hillary haters. He knows he hates her but when asked why he is suddenly unable to find words.

And for some reason I was arguing about corndogs today and this happened.
posted by johnpowell at 10:21 PM on October 2, 2016 [8 favorites]


If rstevens isn't watching this thread, I want to know where else he knows of on the internet that's any more reassuring than this. Mostly everywhere else just makes me more anxious.
posted by Sequence at 10:47 PM on October 2, 2016


Jonathan Chait/Barrack Obama at New York Magazine: “Five Days That Shaped a Presidency: Barack Obama shares with Jonathan Chait a very early draft of his memoirs.”
On August 25, after a short trip to Baton Rouge to assess flooding in Louisiana and before what will likely be his last visit to China on Air Force One, Barack Obama sat down at the White House to reflect on the past eight years. He led America through a period of dramatic, convulsive change — an era that New York Magazine explores this week in its cover story. Before his conversation with Jonathan Chait, he chose five moments that, he believes, will have outsized historical impact. Here is their conversation in full.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:03 PM on October 2, 2016 [1 favorite]




From that Biden piece -

"You have to remember, in the 2012 race they asked me, if I could have any one wish, what would it be? And I said, to have a Republican Party. It was considered a gaffe — it was no gaffe. I genuinely meant it. Think about it. Nobody can speak for the Republican Party. Nobody. So with whom do you negotiate?"

And that was before Trump. No matter what happens in November, it's not going to be pretty...
posted by Devonian at 11:46 PM on October 2, 2016 [14 favorites]


Steve Sack cartoon: Excuse Prep for the Next Debate. Love the first one, "Podium pitcher was filled with Flint water".
posted by valetta at 12:19 AM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


From the department of possible historical resonances at the Guardian: a book about speed-freak Hitler.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:00 AM on October 3, 2016


Metafilter's had two goes at that book.

Jezebel has an interesting bit on Trump's helicopter fleet services manager/cocaine trafficker.

Weichselbaum was sentenced to three years in prison and served just 18 months before receiving early release, while the others charged in the same indictment got as many as 20 years. After Weichselbaum was released, he moved into Trump Tower with his girlfriend, who had just bought two adjoining apartments there for $2.4 million. According to investigative reporter David Cay Johnston, the payment was made in cash, leaving no public record of where the money came from or if anything even changed hands. (Weichselbaum and his upstairs neighbor were very close: He told his probation officer about Trump’s affair with Marla Maples long before the tabloids found out, the Smoking Gun reports.) And Trump didn’t just put Weichselbaum up after he got out of prison: He also continued paying the helicopter company—which had declared bankruptcy twice—$180,000 a month, despite having purchased three helicopters of his own, to form Trump Air.

“Trump has never been known to use drugs or even drink,” Johnston recalled earlier this year. “What motivated him to risk his valuable license by standing up for a drug trafficker remains unclear to this day.” Spy had a theory: Trump was paying Weichselbaum not just for his helicopter services but for his connections to the drug world, which provided access to the kinds of amenities not listed in brochures, which a certain class of clientele would expect to be supplied at no additional charge.

“Sure, I was offered coke gambling down there,” one high roller, referring to the Trump Plaza and Trump Castle, told Spy in 1991. And a Castle employee confirmed that VIPs were supplied with cocaine at parties: “It happened all the time.”

posted by sebastienbailard at 1:10 AM on October 3, 2016 [12 favorites]


It's interesting to me that the DC Hotel infomercial seems to have emerged as the major turning point in the media coverage of the campaign, the point where many said enough is enough and began to take steps toward questioning nonsense rather than just repeating it. It's interesting first because it's just so petty; of all the horrible things Trump has said this campaign, the thing that finally got to the press was that he wasted their time and network air promoting his hotel. It wasn't just that of course; that incident was the final straw in a few days worth of outrages: getting the press stuck in traffic and then mocking them for not being there, the birtherism interview, refusing to allow a pool producer to accompany cameras on the hotel tour, etc... But that's the point where reporters said "yeah this guy is good for ratings, but we're getting played for fools."

But it's also interesting because any sensible person should have realized this back in March (I mean, ideally you would have caught on sooner, but March was the last possible date). That's when Mitt Romney mocked Trump for all his business failures, and Trump called a press conference to show off how successful he was. That's the infamous press conference where he displayed fake steaks that literally had the label from another company on them, Trump Wine that he didn't own, Trump Magazine that went out of business in 2009, Trump Water he doesn't own, and he lauded his airline that was a complete failure. The instant that he stood up on that stage promoting his no longer existent steaks, pointing to a bunch of raw beef someone bought at a grocery store and didn't bother to unwrap, there should have been no doubt what game he was playing, that he would gladly play the press for fools and laugh at their fact checks. That moment was the equivalent of pointing at the moon, insisting it is the planet Neptune and is made out of cheese, and expecting the world's press to report that you are both the world's best astronomer and the world's best cheesemaker. After the fake steaks, the only surprising thing about Trump is that it took so long to reach the apex that was the DC Hotel incident, and yet everybody laughed that day off like it was nothing.
posted by zachlipton at 1:11 AM on October 3, 2016 [207 favorites]


Zachlipton, if I could use all my favorites on one comment today, that would be the comment I'd use them on.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:53 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


And alas, sio42, I think the root cause of such a loathing of Hills boils down pretty much to misogyny.
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 2:05 AM on October 3, 2016 [10 favorites]


> I feel like Metafilter gets some credit, because people telling their stories about volunteering made it far less intimidating for me.

> She feels better, she's made a difference, and I feel proud of myself for having inspired her to do it. You guys inspired me to inspire her, and you should feel proud of yourselves. Cause I feel proud of all of you.

> And thanks to you and the other mefites who've volunteered and shared their experiences, I am gonna do it. (Deep breath.)

> I signed up for the next few Sundays, since Hillz needs me. This was interesting and I'm glad I did it.

To all the volunteers: thank you.

I am not a phone person, and it's safe to say that calling people I don't know would never ever be on my list of favorite things to do. But today I found myself volunteering for a political campaign for the first time in my life, and spent time making calls to people I've never met.

Honestly, all the encouragement here on MeFi convinced me to do it!

And for anyone interested in volunteering in general (as the Hillary app says, only 36 days until Election Day!), here's a list of ways you can help the Hillary campaign, split up by how much time you can offer, and where (might have been posted before, but it's not in this thread afaik).

I'm a process-oriented person who likes to understand and have time to digest what's involved: where do I need to go, how much time will it take, what does the actual call bank UI look like, what options are there, what do I say in this case, etc.

So in case this helps anyone else thinking of making calls for Hillary, here are some observations from a first-time phone bank volunteer:

- It's pretty convenient. You can make calls as long as phone banks are open. You don't have to go to a call banking event and can make calls from home or anywhere really, as other MeFite volunteers have said. You can choose which state you want to call. (Of course you can also call at an official campaign event, too; my report here is based on my experience calling from home.)

- You can start with just a few calls -- the first goal they ask is for 5 calls. AFAIK you don't even have to do all 5 at once, either.

- You don't have to go to any meetings or talk to anyone to sign up to volunteer for this (at least, I didn't). There's an online training tutorial/meeting that you can join on most Sundays or Wednesdays, but it's not required to start calling (none of the tutorial times worked with my schedule).

- There are different types of outreach efforts, so you can choose which one you're most comfortable with. Each phone bank has a little description of what it's about, and there is a call script that's catered for each phone bank -- scripts can vary in content and length. The HRC website has a good overview of the main types of volunteer calls -- click on any of the "Learn more" links to get a quick sample of what a call involves, and see a screenshot of the call tool. (Today I also saw some call banks specifically for women, African Americans, and Asian American/Pacific Islanders.)

- There's a chance to get familiar with the call script(s) ahead of time. This was really one of the most important things for me, because I wanted to prepare and read through it on my own a few times and get the hang of the phrasing, and when to say what.

- While a script is available for each call, sometimes there are parts where the script will tell you to talk to the person on your own, like if it's a persuasion call. So for instance, you might be asked to talk to them about why you're personally voting for Hillary, if they say they're undecided. (Today my calls were for volunteer recruitment, and I didn't talk to any undecided people.)

- If you want, you can make a practice call (this only seems to be available 12pm-9pm Eastern), where you talk to a phone bank team member and can ask for tips. (I tried doing this today but the person didn't answer the phone, and I couldn't get another practice person in the same session.)

- My first 5 calls took me about 5 minutes to make, because nobody answered the phone for them (I ended up calling more). So, the general volunteer list linked above asks for "An hour" to call voters "From your home", but you probably won't need a whole hour for that first goal.

- For each goal reached (5 calls, then 10, 20, etc), a cascade of stars literally showers the call bank page and there's a friendly message that starts "Nice work!" encouraging you go on. (I'm wondering if the person who designed these success messages is the same person who designed the points/badges, dog, and plants in the Hillary app.) Calling strangers is still not one of my favorite things to do, but the messaging definitely helps. And it'd be awesome to get a cascade of stars and a congrats when finishing tasks at my job...

- There is also apparently a call team Slack channel. (I requested an invite but haven't gotten one.)

- The call banks are open pretty late: I'm not 100% certain, but it seems they close for a state at 9pm local time. So if you happen to be up at say, 11pm Eastern, you can still make calls to states on the west coast (as long as there are open call banks for them).

- As it's also been said here, most people didn't answer the phone. I heard a lot of voicemail or answering machine greetings. I had to make about 10 calls before I finally got to talk to someone (and while he said he couldn't volunteer, he was super nice and said he'd already donated to the campaign, and told me to keep up the good work! Pretty good first call banking conversation).

So yeah, I hope this info helps anyone else considering calling or otherwise pitching in.

Thanks again to everyone volunteering, contributing, donating, putting up signs, sharing their reports, and providing moral support!
posted by rangefinder 1.4 at 2:23 AM on October 3, 2016 [70 favorites]


Is anyone else kind of getting sick eating all this popcorn watching Cheetoh Jesus self-immolate?

Like two weeks ago Trump was Rommel in a Tiger II

Go back and read the threads
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:25 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


20+ years ago, the Democratic Party needed to start working on...

This is based on the idea that political parties and politicians should be on the vanguard of social change - that they should advocate for social change (e.g. gay marriage) or economic change (e.g. raising the minimum wage) and educate and convince the rest of the electorate of the rightness of their ideas.

This may work for some marginal politicians that are either on the party fringe or a third party. However, by definition, if a major party and its party leaders move substantially to the left/right of the majority of voters, they will no longer be electable. People won't change their mind en masse because politicians told them to. For voters (people) to change their minds requires media, education, information, social movements, one on one conversations with friends, and a whole number of other difficult to quantify elements. This can include support of politicians of course but cannot be limited to just that. It's when we as a people change our minds and begin to support and advocate for new ideas that politicians are enabled to also come out in support of them. Major party politicians by definition will only support policies that approx half or more of the voting population support.

So we cannot say that the Democratic Party should have been advocating for positions that would have been deeply unpopular with many at the time. Rather we must all bear some responsibilty for not having the conversation at that time and for not pushing our politicians to address the issue head on.

tl; dr: advocate loudly and clearly for issues that are important to you and organise to push your representatives to your point of view
posted by mosessis at 3:38 AM on October 3, 2016 [27 favorites]


Hillary Clinton Speech at Little Rock AME Zion Church in Charlotte (10/2/2016)

Obama's key word was Hope. Hillary's, I feel, is Healing. I wish I could vote for this rational, insightful, articulate woman. Healing vs hellraising - could the contrast with her opponent's speeches be any starker? From this Aussie, good wishes and gratitude to everyone supporting her, especially you intrepid volunteers.
posted by valetta at 3:39 AM on October 3, 2016 [31 favorites]


The press's problem, ultimately, is the same as the problem all of us with Republican friends on social media face ourselves... How to talk about Trump without showing disdain for his followers.

Mitt Romney rightly caught flack for looking down his nose at 47% of all Americans... but Trump has support from a similar percentage. They already think we liberals are elitist, looking down our noses at them... They already distrust the "mainstream media." Should we just write them off, as Romney wrote off the 47% he was talking about?

If so, how much deeper will the culture wars get, how much worse will our fragile democracy be fractured? If so large a fraction of the population is treated as hopelessly stupid or evil, how can democracy even work? How can any kind of society work, for that matter, with cultural divisions so deep there is no sense of shared identity or even shared reality? Historically this ends in civil war, or a sustained sub-war level of violence, politically motivated bombings and shootings and sabotage...

Or should we try to engage with them? Start a "peace process" before we end up actually at war? That requires a presumption of good faith, an implicit respect for their intelligence and point of view...

And so how can we call Trump out for being a con man without making his followers feel like we're calling them easy marks... gullible, stupid, greedy? No one likes being told they've been conned. People will fiercely resist that information, throwing good money (and effort) after bad, just to "prove" they were right in the first place...

(Of course, anyone can be conned. We shouldn't be so ashamed of it. It's our pride in thinking we can never get conned that actually makes us as easy marks, and we Democrats should remember that while we enjoy our shadenfreude this year. There have been some successful con men in the left too, historically...)

But how do you help someone who has fallen for a con, who has deeply invested in a pyramid scheme, who has sent money to the Nigerian prince or worse, joined cult... How do you help them when they refuse to acknowledge that they need help?

This is the problem journalists face right now, same as those of us with Trump-voting friends and relatives... This is the delicate line you have to walk, humoring people to a certain extent lest they cut you out of their lives completely for questioning their world view. NPR even did an interview with the editor at NYT after NYT made the choice to start using the word "liar" about Trump more often, where Scott Simon more or less explained that this was the reason NPR wasn't doing that... because it could be heard as an insult not just to Trump, but to all of his followers. And once Trump supporters stop believing in the credibility of NYT and NPR and etc, with all the "mainstream media," they lose contact with reality even more. They seek out news even more from sources which tell them that Hillary Clinton routinely has people killed or whatever (I hear this one a lot from the darker parts of my Facebook feed). And the more discinnected from reality this huge fraction of the population gets, the more our democracy is weakened.

I'm sympathetic to people in media right now. They've faced a version of this problem reporting on people like the IRA or Hezbollah, the tentsiin between depicting them as terrorists or peace partners... But it's different when it's in your own country. It's not their job to be cult deprogrammers... but that's sort of the role they find themselves trying to play. It's that or write off half the country, without which we can't be whole...
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:05 AM on October 3, 2016 [47 favorites]


How Trump's 'Apprentice' moved from capitalism to sexism (AP) - nothing surprising, but has quotes from staff & contestants.
posted by harriet vane at 4:14 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]




I don't think these people have been conned so much as they're reacting to the proposition that when unearned privilege is removed, it feels like oppression. There's nothing to negotiate. It's not acceptable to let white male privilege remain longer to keep white straight males from feeling bad. It's a struggle where one side wants equity and the other doesn't. How do you compromise between those positions?
posted by rikschell at 4:22 AM on October 3, 2016 [30 favorites]


That's the con they're being sold. "Join this movement and you can get your privileges back."

That's always the con, isn't it? "You can be at the top of the pyramid. You can be friends with royalty. You can be one of the ones the aliens rescue. You can be one of the privileged few..."
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:26 AM on October 3, 2016 [16 favorites]


I find it depressing that many, if not most, of the HRC supporters I know are afraid to put up any kind of sign, magnet, or bumper sticker

We've got a sticker on our front door, which is right on the street because it's a townhouse and one on the back window of our car. No one has damaged anything so far.
posted by octothorpe at 4:26 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


And I don't know how you compromise. I don't think we can create a homeland for ethnically "white people" (whatever that would even mean) or whatever. That sounds horrible (and I'm white)!

But maybe we can help them think of the rest of us as Americans just like them, so they'll realize the homeland they'e already got is not being taken away from them?
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:35 AM on October 3, 2016


how much deeper will the culture wars get, how much worse will our fragile democracy be fractured?

A lot of this depends on whether Trump openly contests his loss and calls into question the result of the democratic process, which I'm growing more frightful that he may do.
posted by localhuman at 5:05 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


With all of the terrible things he's said, it'd be funny/sad if not paying taxes might actually alienate voters.

Not getting my hopes up about this flipping people to Hillz, but if it causes people to stay home and not vote that's ok.
posted by strange chain at 5:11 AM on October 3, 2016


Sio42, that's misogyny all right, just a different variant.
posted by Sublimity at 5:11 AM on October 3, 2016 [24 favorites]


It's interesting to me that the DC Hotel infomercial seems to have emerged as the major turning point in the media coverage of the campaign, the point where many said enough is enough and began to take steps toward questioning nonsense rather than just repeating it.

While the press has always had a sycophantic flaw, Trump's mastery of the television medium - which dominates campaign coverage even in the Internet net - is one of his campaign's great advantages and offset its buffoonery and charlatanry for a very long time. From the NYT article "How Donald Trump Set Off a Civil War Within the Right-Wing Media" linked earlier:
No presidential candidate in history, Hannity told me, understands television better than Trump — “not even close.” On this score, I couldn’t disagree. One evening this past spring, on his plane after a campaign event in Buffalo, Trump told me that at rallies, he always made a point of finding the TV cameras at the back of the media pen and noticing whether a red light was flickering. “That means they’re airing it live,” he explained. “So I make sure to say something new” — by which he meant newsworthy, the better to own the next news cycle.

Trump was a TV star for more than a decade before he became a politician; he watches TV news incessantly and understands the medium intimately. He knows the optimal time slots on the morning shows. He stage-manages the on-set lighting. He is not only on speaking terms with every network chief executive but also knows their booking agents. He monitors the opinions of hosts and regular guests more avidly than most media critics do and works them obsessively, often directly.

Scarborough told me that Trump’s family — particularly Ivanka Trump’s husband, Jared Kushner — sometimes asked him for advice, and more than once “called me and asked me to get him off the ledge. I’ve said, ‘I can do that, but six hours later he’s going to revert to form.’ I told Jared at one point: ‘Jared, your father-in-law listens to me more when I’m attacking him on television than when I’m trying to convince him to be rational for the sake of the party.’ I think he’s a creature of TV.”
The whole TV news industry has been as expertly manipulated by Trump as the crowds of faithful at his rallies. Like a great salesman, or just plain huckster, he has offered exactly what they want, or think they want. That's incredibly difficult to resist and even harder to recover from once fallen for.
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:13 AM on October 3, 2016 [17 favorites]


Has Trump not reacted to the SNL skit yet? I thought that would have gotten him frothing at the mouth.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:17 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


NPR even did an interview with the editor at NYT after NYT made the choice to start using the word "liar" about Trump more often, where Scott Simon more or less explained that this was the reason NPR wasn't doing that... because it could be heard as an insult not just to Trump, but to all of his followers.

Have they never observed that the first-line defense of people caught lying is to demand, with truculence, "Are you calling me a liar?" Oh, heaven forfend, I wouldn't do that! It's just a hell of a coincidene that you are always saying untruthful things!
posted by thelonius at 5:17 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Have they never observed that the first-line defense of people caught lying is to demand, with truculence, "Are you calling me a liar?" Oh, heaven forfend, I wouldn't do that! It's just a hell of a coincidene that you are always saying untruthful things!

This has always perplexed me.

Are you calling me a liar?

Yes.

Why is that so difficult?
posted by maggiemaggie at 5:21 AM on October 3, 2016 [21 favorites]




Because that ends the conversation, and often the relationship.
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:29 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


@JamilSmith: When deranged Trump supporters get humanizing profiles, but innocent black kids have to die to be seen at all.

That's a fair response, definitely. It's also a profile worth reading, maybe, if only to understand a little about why and how 2016-era conservatives have become a group of unhinged people who blame immigrants and people of color and anyone else for all their problems. That's beyond just feeling empathy for victims of sexual assault and a corrupt justice system (as was the case, apparently, with the subject of the linked piece) — these are the people who help prop up Trump's version of fascism.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 5:31 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


That article on the Apprentice is disgusting. You could see only the barest echoes of what must have been going on in the aired episodes (things like him saying "She's a very beautiful woman, isn't she? She's a legendary beauty" about a few of the celebrity contestants who were models).
posted by sallybrown at 5:32 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hahaha Kellyanne Conway and Megyn Kelly are on FOX right now. I need my umbrella for all this shade.

Also, popcorn.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:32 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


(crap, that was actually a youtube clip from yesterday, thought my husband was watching TV. Now I need to find it so I can watch it forever)
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:39 AM on October 3, 2016


tivalasvegas right now
posted by J.K. Seazer at 5:41 AM on October 3, 2016 [13 favorites]


I picked up 2 Hillary signs when I phone banked 2 weeks ago. My sister placed hers in her front yard and has had no issues (heavily Hispanic neighborhood, Fort Worth,Tx). Mine is perched on top of my ornamental wire front yard fence, just behind an extremely thorny blackberry bush. Also, I am going to believe that the 9 year old (ish) girl waving and smiling at me on the highway yesterday spotted my Hillary bumper sticker.
posted by tingting at 5:52 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


what I'm watching forever
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:54 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


Forgot to mention the one Trump sign in my neighborhood. It has been hanging in a window down the street since the beginning of the year. About a month ago, it fell crooked in the window and now only a corner of it can be seen. No one has bothered to adjust it. This makes me happy.
posted by tingting at 5:59 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


Here in suburban Philly, it's remarkable how few signs I'm seeing for ANYONE. I've seen one Democratic sign all season and it's for a local district candidate. The guy who's a local Republican supervisor muckymuck up the street from my dad's usually has his lawn full of signs; this year, nothing. There are a handful of Trump signs and a handful for Pat Toomey but otherwise, it's a graveyard.

Central PA, on the other hand, is raging against the dying of the white.
posted by delfin at 6:03 AM on October 3, 2016 [14 favorites]


"Kellyanne, great to see you! So, Kellyanne, A;LK(!*^SIDjslkd(!*& !#@*!"
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:16 AM on October 3, 2016


Bracelet is all "fuck this, I'm ooouuttttt!"
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:18 AM on October 3, 2016 [10 favorites]


There's a house near me (rural Wisconsin) that sported a Cruz sign until well after the GOP convention. In late August, it disappeared. Just after 9/11 a Trump sign appeared. My husband and I speculated about the reasons behind the homeowners' capitulation.

Then, last week the Trump sign disappeared. My husband and I speculated about whether the debate or its aftermath had provided the last straw. We were wrong. The other day, a Realtor's sign appeared. Although I imagine displaying any evidence of one's political outlook is a bad idea when listing a house, it still pleased me to know that effective home staging includes ditching the Trump regalia.
posted by carmicha at 6:22 AM on October 3, 2016 [11 favorites]


It's almost like Hillary knew the NYT had the returns when she lit the fuse on Monday.

(From the Times article)
The three documents arrived by mail at The Times with a postmark indicating they had been sent from New York City. The return address claimed the envelope had been sent from Trump Tower.

Uh, guys, I don't want to speculate too wildly here, but it is 2016, so: has anyone ever seen Meredith and Hilary in the same room together?
posted by Mayor West at 6:23 AM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'm trying to hold on to my dislike of Megyn Kelly as she's responsible for promoting all sorts of crazy crap during her tenure at Fox but she actually seems to be doing some good in her role right now.

I also kind of wonder what the long term future for her is at a Fox News without Ailes and increasingly less Rupert. It seems like the Murdoch heirs are much less vehement in their viewpoints and would like Fox News to pivot towards being more centrist (and younger). I guess they are looking at demographic trends that aren't particularly that interesting to advertisers moving forward.
posted by vuron at 6:24 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Due to an existential crisis in my working life I checked out around the time [insert late night tv host here] ruffled his hair. With that crisis resolved in my favour I checked back in on Friday night.

I have not read every comment but I think my decisive impact on this election still entitles me to an "I survived the Metafilter election threads" t-shirt.
posted by vbfg at 6:25 AM on October 3, 2016 [15 favorites]


Yeah, who's going to get on making those shirts? Proceeds to the Metafilter Mods Beer Fund.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:29 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


That article on the Apprentice is disgusting. You could see only the barest echoes of what must have been going on in the aired episodes (things like him saying "She's a very beautiful woman, isn't she? She's a legendary beauty" about a few of the celebrity contestants who were models).

It gets worse:
Eight former crew members recalled that he repeatedly made lewd comments about a camerawoman he said had a nice rear, comparing her beauty to that of his daughter, Ivanka.
And there's quite a bit of internalized misogyny and possibly fear of retribution in this anecdote:
Contestant Poppy Carlig, who performed the twirl, said she considered Trump's request "playful banter." She added: "I don't immediately jump to the conclusion that people are having bad intentions with what they are saying. He said I reminded him of his daughter and I thought that was really touching because I know how much he values his family."
This is not normal behavior from a father, and the fact that he feels so open in saying stuff like this all the time and is using it as a form of domination and abuse makes me worry about Ivanka.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:29 AM on October 3, 2016 [35 favorites]


Here in suburban Philly, it's remarkable how few signs I'm seeing for ANYONE. I've seen one Democratic sign all season and it's for a local district candidate. The guy who's a local Republican supervisor muckymuck up the street from my dad's usually has his lawn full of signs; this year, nothing. There are a handful of Trump signs and a handful for Pat Toomey but otherwise, it's a graveyard.

Central PA, on the other hand, is raging against the dying of the white.


Philadelphian here! I just started a new job at what I'd like to think of as a miracle company. The sort of place that proudly boasts of how much of its staff is non-male/white/cisgender/straight. It's sad how much it unnerves me to attend all-hands company meetings where women speak as much as men do, and where nobody goddamn interrupts them. Given that I'm in tech, though, this place qualifies as a damn unicorn.

The first day I went in, there was a guy at my subway station with a tremendous amount of FUCK TRUMP buttons. Just sitting on the bench, starting up conversations with people, offering $3 buttons with various crude anti-Trump slogans.

He was a very popular guy.
posted by rorgy at 6:29 AM on October 3, 2016 [50 favorites]



Donald Trump Wants to Write Your Tweets

posted by box at 8:28 AM

Boy that's really going to contribute noise when all the Trumpbots just repeat the talking points. My feed is limited to my representatives (including Obama, natch) and political reporters so I won't have to read the Trump lies as filtered by the general public-- I can get it straight from the Trump surrogates-- filtered by reporters.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:29 AM on October 3, 2016


I also kind of wonder what the long term future for her is at a Fox News without Ailes and increasingly less Rupert.

The median age of a Fox News viewer is currently 68 years old, not sure how sustainable focusing on that demographic is.
posted by octothorpe at 6:32 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm in a very blue college town, so it's not terribly surprising that I haven't seen a lot of Trump stuff, but I don't think that I've seen a single Trump sign recently, including on houses that have signs for other Republican candidates. I think there was one up near campus during the primaries. Someone did chalk "Trump" on sidewalks near campus a couple of months ago. The next day, someone else had come along and neatly chalked "Stop" right above every place where it said "Trump," so that it now read "Stop Trump." I have no idea who you are, anonymous anti-Trump chalker, but my hats off to you. The best remedy for bad speech is more speech!

I'm seeing more Clinton stuff. I've had a magnet on my car for about a month without incident, but I don't drive very much.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:34 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


In darker yard sign news, there's a LiveLeak video of some young folks beating a suburban woman in the process of stealing her Trump yard signs. (Not linking it here for obvious reasons) Things are going to get pretty ugly in the next few news cycles, I hope to shit the radical right doesn't see this as a golden ticket to escalate violence.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:38 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Has Trump not reacted to the SNL skit yet? I thought that would have gotten him frothing at the mouth.

He might have, but that's the same day that the NYT released the tax information, and the same day he had a big meltdown. More reasons not to let him near the twitters.
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:40 AM on October 3, 2016


This discussion made me realize that while I've seen a couple Trump signs/stickers around, I haven't seen a single mention of our Senate race anywhere, from either side. The two candidates are just kind of Generic Evil Shitbird Republican Incumbent and Generic Suburban Democrat Challenger and it's boring as hell even though the race is very very close.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:40 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Anyone who is less than 100% pro Hillary I'm like wha??? What happened you used to be cool??????

I have a confession to make. Sorry. Not 100%. If she was Hillary Brown, or Hillary Jones or Hillary Smith (but not Hillary Roosevelt, Hillary Bush, or Hillary Kennedy) I'd be all in. But there is some part of me that tends to revolt against the idea of familial dynasties in American politics. It bothers me at that same level at which my inner Boy Scout twitches when I see a "patriot" abuse the shit out of an American flag.

That said, given her opponent, she'd have my vote is she was Hillary Khufu, Hillary Ming or Hillary Habsburg.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 6:40 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm seeing more Clinton stuff. I've had a magnet on my car for about a month without incident,

Me too. My husband and I share a Passat and a lightweight truck which we drive in the Raleigh area. No problems.

I see that Apprentice stuff all over the place this morning. Good. Also, Newt still thinks that Trump can change. Like, dude! This is your candidate. He is not going to change.
“He has gotten himself to the edge of the mountain, he can get himself to the top of the mountain, but to do that he has to be willing to make real change,” said Mr. Gingrich, who emphasized that he was not criticizing Mr. Trump.
"I'm not criticizing him, I just want him to be a different person."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:41 AM on October 3, 2016 [11 favorites]


Newt. Newty. Netwon. Can I call you Newton? I know you care deeply for Donald, but please practice some self-care and realize that in order to change, he has to want to change.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:45 AM on October 3, 2016 [13 favorites]


Speaking of Trump signs: This weekend I drove from Columbus, Ohio to Huntington, West Virginia by way of Ohio freeway. I only counted one Trump sign on the highway, and then equal parts Hillary/Trump signs in actual Huntington.

I am still in shock that there wasn't a flood of Trump signs from the outer 270 belt all the way to WV. Glad they were so scarce, of course, but shocked.
posted by Tevin at 6:45 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


More intel from last night's family confrontation. My brother (who also has a learning disability) is convinced that Hillary is not only going to take his guns away, but she is going to make him a felon. He reported that he has a letter from the ATF to prove it. When I asked to see the letter, he changed the subject. I don't know what he's talking about but he's not prone to lie about personal information, so either someone misinterpreted a letter for him, or he's at a whole different level than I thought about conspiracies. Either way, I woke up pretty well depressed this morning and also really concerned about the stability of my brother. This election, specifically the right wing spin machine that brought us here, is a nightmare.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:46 AM on October 3, 2016 [19 favorites]


Surprised this didn't make the thread yet.
Springsteen:
Some people seemed upset that I called @realDonaldTrump a moron, so I wanted to clarify my remarks: He’s also an asshole. #I’mWithHer
posted by spitbull at 6:47 AM on October 3, 2016 [63 favorites]


He has gotten himself to the edge of the mountain

Isn't that a ... cliff?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:48 AM on October 3, 2016 [16 favorites]


Surprised this didn't make the thread yet. Springsteen:
Some people seemed upset that I called @realDonaldTrump a moron, so I wanted to clarify my remarks: He’s also an asshole. #I’mWithHer
That was fake. Note that it came from "Bruce Spingsteen".
posted by dfan at 6:50 AM on October 3, 2016 [18 favorites]


Sophie1, this is what fifty years of that right wing spin machine, plus tons of deregulation and collusion to increase its range and volume, has brought America. A nation full of otherwise rational people who read one too many FWD: FWD: FWD: FWD: emails or Facebook rants or Twitter hashtags or radio broadcasts and are ready to believe any damned thing that the broadcast worldview alleges.

I'm struggling with my dad the same way. He's not a Trump fan and thinks modern Republicans are clowns, but he despises Obama and reeeeeeeeeeeeally despises Hillary, and I'm always poking holes in the misinformation streams that are guiding that. He's still reachable, albeit barely.
posted by delfin at 6:51 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


@DeclanGarvey: A bunch of Harvard students got this email today encouraging recipients to vote Trump. Great message targeting from the campaign.


The message of the email is that diversity is code for white genocide. "Harvard teaches its white students that they are immoral and contemptible if they don't support white genocide."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:51 AM on October 3, 2016 [11 favorites]


From the AP Big Story linked above, How Trump's Apprentice moved from capitalism to sexism:
"We were in the boardroom one time figuring out who to blame for the task, and he just stopped in the middle and pointed to someone and said, 'You'd f... her, wouldn't you? I'd f... her. C'mon, wouldn't you?'"
The article says six to eight cameras were filming at all times. So this footage exists.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 6:55 AM on October 3, 2016 [23 favorites]


A lot of the 'pro' Trump stuff is really just another chance to lower-middle/upper-lower class white America (I'm looking at you, Butler County, PA) to stick it to the Clintons one more time.

Despite it not being rooted in reality, a LOT of these folks blame NAFTA for the loss of manufacturing and their comfortable middle-classish lives. Believe me, a LOT.

Second, as they're seeing their power (economic and social) decrease, they see in the last 8 years huge strides for the LGBTQ community, talk about 'those poor black kids getting shot all the time', etc, etc, and they wonder who is looking out for them? Trump is preaching to that choir.
posted by splen at 6:58 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


@DeclanGarvey: A bunch of Harvard students got this email today encouraging recipients to vote Trump. Great message targeting from the campaign.

This email is not officially from the campaign obvs. But I did see a great example of the actual Trump campaign's ace mailing list management when I was door-knocking in Western PA and saw a "VOTE TRUMP!" mailing sticking out of the mailbox with branding from the New York State campaign office (and it wasn't forwarded from a previous address). In a deep blue, predominantly black urban neighborhood. A+ targeting right there.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:00 AM on October 3, 2016


they wonder who is looking out for them?

Man these people pivoted from "personal responsibility! rugged individuality! no one owes you a free lunch! take care of your own self! bootstraps!" fast, didn't they?
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:02 AM on October 3, 2016 [28 favorites]


Sorry about the fake Springsteen. But he did in fact call Trump a "moron" in a Rolling Stone interview.
posted by spitbull at 7:02 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


This email is not officially from the campaign obvs. But I did see a great example of the actual Trump campaign's ace mailing list management when I was door-knocking in Western PA and saw a "VOTE TRUMP!" mailing sticking out of the mailbox with branding from the New York State campaign office (and it wasn't forwarded from a previous address). In a deep blue, predominantly black urban neighborhood. A+ targeting right there.

I would totally believe a news story claiming that the Trump campaign is actually infiltrated top to bottom with Democratic GOTV operatives.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:04 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Politico/Morning Consult poll of likely voters
Clinton 46
Trump 39

Clinton 42
Trump 36
Johnson 9
Stein 2

Sep 30-Oct 2, +/-2%
posted by strange chain at 7:04 AM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


Man these people pivoted from "personal responsibility! rugged individuality! no one owes you a free lunch! take care of your own self! bootstraps!" fast, didn't they?

That line only comes out when it's useful to point out that an individual who is a minority is getting a food stamp or something. When they feel everyone is else getting a 'free lunch', damnit, they want a free buffet!

Also, they wouldn't be in that situation if Bill and Hillary hadn't personally come into their factory and personally taken their jobs to Mexicanada...*eye roll*

Yes, I know people who think and speak like this and it's beyonnnnnnd frustrating.
posted by splen at 7:06 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]




Campaign material update:

The Trump campaign mailed a (folded) sign to Ms. Personality. Neither of us have any idea why, but hey, that’s a few dimes less they have to spend on people who care.

I finally received my “[first names] for Clinton” bumper sticker, but they used the name on my credit card, not the name on my HFA profile, so it says “Stephens for Clinton” instead of “Steves.” Boooooo.
posted by nicepersonality at 7:09 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


I know a guy who parody's that sort of stuff (Mexicanada, etc.) on Facebook pretty regularly, usually accompanied with an article about how this or that republican policy totally sticks it to Joe Average American. It gets a little bit tedious until a friend of a friend shows up to "side with him" without RTFAing first. Then it's funny again.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 7:10 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


I finally received my “[first names] for Clinton” bumper sticker, but they used the name on my credit card, not the name on my HFA profile, so it says “Stephens for Clinton” instead of “Steves.” Boooooo.

Well, that confirms they're not paying attention to these threads.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:11 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


Dems build files to track Trump 'stain'

Good.

Also that's pretty much all of them by now.
posted by Artw at 7:12 AM on October 3, 2016 [10 favorites]


Good morning and welcome tot he looney bin.

Reply to that tweet notes that it's Rosh Hashanah. Kagan, Ginsburg and Breyer are Jewish.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:12 AM on October 3, 2016 [58 favorites]


Reply to that tweet notes that it's Rosh Hashanah. Kagan, Ginsburg and Breyer are Jewish.

Oh, right. I'm a moron.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:16 AM on October 3, 2016


Sanders: As Iowans well know, Hillary Clinton and I had some very vigorous debates. We do not agree on every issue. But there is no question that she is, far and away, the superior candidate in this election.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 7:21 AM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


Basic arithmetic time! Donald's tax evasion scheme in 1995, given the top incremental rate that year, cost the federal government 39.6% of $916 million, or $363 million. What could we buy with $363 million in 1995-dollars?

36 elementary schools! A quarter of the cost of all the alleged welfare fraud from that year! A third of the operating budget of the CDC! The entire operating budget of the Library of Congress!

All will be forgiven, Donald. Just build us our three dozen elementary schools, or fund the entire library of Congress, or get your party to shut the hell up about welfare reform. Oh, and release the next 20 years of returns, in case this wasn't just a one-time scheme.
posted by Mayor West at 7:23 AM on October 3, 2016 [33 favorites]


Maybe it was 5776 that sucked and it's all over now, rather than it being 2016 that's still gonna keep sucking for three more moths.

ETA: Shanah Tovah!
posted by spitbull at 7:26 AM on October 3, 2016 [39 favorites]


The up side is that there is actually a way better path opening up in the NEXT 20 or so years as decent jobs stop being tied to your ability to commute to the office and city dwellers realize they can buy, like, three houses for what they've got in their couch cushions. But it's going to be bumpy getting there.

Bumpy because you're going to see industries like the road haulage business change drastically -- not just from automation, but from the rise of just-in-time delivery to the home. There are millions of long-haul truck drivers in the US: it's a hard but relatively well-paid job and the demographics are firmly with Trump: older non-college white men.

The centre-left needs to get ahead of the conversation on the consumer supply chain and understand what's happening in the warehouses and on the roads: if the future of work relies more on telecommuting, then those people working remotely will also want stuff delivered to them.
posted by holgate at 7:37 AM on October 3, 2016 [10 favorites]


Unfortunately, companies like Amazon with big warehouses are already experimenting with automated location and retrieval of items, so that's another job that may disappear in the future.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:44 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


What the fucking hell, guys... I was visiting a relative over the weekend... this is a guy who despite being mostly rational, has been fascinated by innumerable wacky conspiracy theories his whole life. But he unhesitatingly says that he doesn't believe, even if Trump actually wins the election, that any of the fascist things Trump has said he will do, and would have been elected because he said he'll do, could actually happen. "People would stop him, people would fight back."

He was persuaded to vote for Obama twice, but this year was trying to pull "they're both equally bad." He has a toddler, a little girl, who theoretically might be drafted to fight in a war Trump started, if Trump were to follow his Republican predecessor and start some decade-plus-long wars.

After I pushed harder on the parallels to Nazi Germany, he started edging into accelerationist stuff. I said, "[In that context] would you still be saying it might be better for Trump to burn everything down so that we supposedly could start over, if you were Jewish?" That at least gave him enough of a pause to reply with "No, probably not."

The country that would with certainty be able to stem a rising tide of fascism through good people refusing to stand for it, alone, is not the country that would allow someone to get anywhere near the presidency in the first place after openly advocating for government registries and his own personally-established federal agency busting down millions of doors and saying he "would have had to be there at the time" to decide if there was anything wrong with using war powers to put Japanese citizens in camps during WWII.
posted by XMLicious at 7:45 AM on October 3, 2016 [19 favorites]


NPR even did an interview with the editor at NYT after NYT made the choice to start using the word "liar" about Trump more often, where Scott Simon more or less explained that this was the reason NPR wasn't doing that... because it could be heard as an insult not just to Trump, but to all of his followers. And once Trump supporters stop believing in the credibility of NYT and NPR and etc, with all the "mainstream media," they lose contact with reality even more.

That ship has sailed. The only time movement conservatives care what NPR or the NYT says is when the story bashes Clinton or presents Trump in a favorable lights. The minute reality rears its head, Trump followers are back to dismissing the "liberal media," as Republicans from Spiro Agnew to Rush Limbaugh to Trump himself have taught them to do.
posted by Gelatin at 7:49 AM on October 3, 2016 [20 favorites]


The country that would with certainty be able to stem a rising tide of fascism through good people refusing to stand for it, alone, is not the country that would allow someone to get anywhere near the presidency in the first place

Yes, of all the wishful thinking about this election, this one baffles me the most. "People won't let Trump start a small-scale nuclear exchange!!!" "The Republican senate won't let him appoint right wing justices!!!" "The people won't let him back out of treaty obligations!!!!"

Like, how is all that supposed to work? Are "the people" going to mob the presidential palace, so to speak? Is there going to be a nation-wide general strike when Trump says he's building a wall? Oh, yes, we have such a strong tradition of general strikes in the US, sure, we're practically France, nothing could go wrong here. That's why we didn't go to war in Iraq - the massive national protests coast to coast persuaded George Bush that the war was against the will of the people!

Trump probably can't pull off some of his policies because they go against the interests of right wing elites - so I'm not actually too worried that we will default on debt, for instance. But anything that average right wing people agree with is fair game.
posted by Frowner at 7:52 AM on October 3, 2016 [35 favorites]


The book "Boardwalk Empire" has a good section near the end about how Trump essentially scammed the city.
posted by drezdn at 7:56 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


he "would have had to be there at the time" to decide if there was anything wrong with using war powers to put Japanese citizens in camps during WWII.

do we need to be regaled by tales of people's racist friends?
posted by zutalors! at 7:56 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Unfortunately, companies like Amazon with big warehouses are already experimenting with automated location and retrieval of items, so that's another job that may disappear in the future.

Automated storage and retrieval is largely the industry standard for any distribution center now, so I wouldn't say "experimenting" so much, although there are still some gaps where the automation can't handle certain types of products effectively.
posted by LionIndex at 7:57 AM on October 3, 2016


Megyn Kelly is pivoting to increase her base as she nears the final months on her contract with FOX. She's in play to go to any network which can increase their cred with the looney right by having her on their payroll.
posted by readery at 7:57 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


@DeclanGarvey: A bunch of Harvard students got this email today encouraging recipients to vote Trump. Great message targeting from the campaign.


The message of the email is that diversity is code for white genocide. "Harvard teaches its white students that they are immoral and contemptible if they don't support white genocide."


So I scrolled through the replies to that tweet, and the emails aren't coming from the Trump campaign officially. It's some alt-right group that likes to encourage their members to send out email blasts to groups they've identified to be targeted for their message, and they use a script they call "the mantra".

It's Gamergate, you guys.
posted by palomar at 7:58 AM on October 3, 2016 [32 favorites]


> "do we need to be regaled by tales of people's racist friends?"

That was Trump.

Time Magazine: Exclusive: Donald Trump Says He Might Have Supported Japanese Internment
posted by kyrademon at 7:59 AM on October 3, 2016 [23 favorites]


XMLicious, that's so hard. Why does your friend (or anyone) think that it's better to fight a terrible president than to keep him out of office in the first place? Good on you for trying. Maybe he'll come around.
posted by emjaybee at 8:03 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Assorted nuttiness:
Drudge front page: first link goes to a Facebook page, second to a Tweet, third to a YouTube video of Roger Stone ranting to Alex Jones.
— McKay Coppins @mckaycoppins 6:58 AM - 3 Oct 2016
TRUMP: the COMING LANDSLIDE ~ Ancient Prophecy Documentary of Donald Trump, a screed by a guy named Trey Smith who does videos about aliens and dinosaurs and Nephilim and dragons. It's remarkable how little difference there is between a Trump campaign advisor and a lunatic grifter on YouTube.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:04 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Most of the punditocracy was absolutely 100% convinced that Trump would never be allowed by 'the Republican establishment' to win the primary at all. Now, those same people who failed to prevent his nomination are somehow supposed to rein him in when he's president? Who and how, exactly?
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:04 AM on October 3, 2016 [48 favorites]


So I actually have a response to this:
What the fucking hell, guys... I was visiting a relative over the weekend... this is a guy who despite being mostly rational, has been fascinated by innumerable wacky conspiracy theories his whole life. But he unhesitatingly says that he doesn't believe, even if Trump actually wins the election, that any of the fascist things Trump has said he will do, and would have been elected because he said he'll do, could actually happen. "People would stop him, people would fight back."
You know what this reminds me of, more than anything? That parable about the religious person sitting on his roof during a flood. Quoting only the most relevant bits,
All this time the floodwaters continued to rise, until soon they reached above the roof and the religious man drowned. When he arrived at heaven he demanded an audience with God. Ushered into God’s throne room he said, “Lord, why am I here in heaven? I prayed for you to save me, I trusted you to save me from that flood.”

“Yes you did my child” replied the Lord. “And I sent you a canoe, a boat and a helicopter. But you never got in.”
I sent you a capable opposition candidate. I sent you the Kahns. I sent you Alicia Machado. I SENT YOU TAX RETURNS. Get in the damn boat already!
posted by instamatic at 8:06 AM on October 3, 2016 [116 favorites]


Right? Like... people can stop him right now (well, November 8) by not voting for him. This is the system functioning as intended! Right this very second! You want to stop a maniac from doing maniacal things while President? Don't elect him President! JFC.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:08 AM on October 3, 2016 [48 favorites]


Yes, of all the wishful thinking about this election, this one baffles me the most. "People won't let Trump start a small-scale nuclear exchange!!!" "The Republican senate won't let him appoint right wing justices!!!" "The people won't let him back out of treaty obligations!!!!"


People also say this about Trump's plan to torture prisoners, target their families, etc. It doesn't take "the people" or "the troops" to make this happen. All it takes is a few evil or merely opportunistic individuals. The kind that narcissistic, disconnected leaders automatically draw to them. The kind that Trump's campaign has already started pushing to the top.
posted by PlusDistance at 8:09 AM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


"People would stop him, people would fight back."

This is our opportunity to fight back right now by not voting for him FFS! We don't get a recall election in 6 months if it turns out he's just as crazy as advertised.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:09 AM on October 3, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm not actually too worried that we will default on debt,

We don't have to actually default on it. The president pushing for us to default, merely mentioning a possible default, will wreck the economy.
posted by chris24 at 8:10 AM on October 3, 2016 [23 favorites]


". I sent you the Kahns. I sent you Alicia Machado. I SENT YOU TAX RETURNS. Get in the damn boat already!"

Pence. He sent Pence. I wish the Hillary Campaign would focus more on Pence since if Trump wins then it's going to be Pence in the driver's seat.

And Pence has a voting record that's easily used against him. We'll see how things play out at Tuesday's debate.
posted by I-baLL at 8:10 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


Hm, Wikileaks claims Hillary suggested assassinating Assange. I don't necessarily trust that, but if it's true, no wonder he hates her. This may hurt her with some voters, but if Assange thinks that the American people on the whole will be as horrified that she could possibly consider hurting him as he is, I dare say he is mistaken.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:11 AM on October 3, 2016


We're supposed to believe that Clinton seriously wanted to drone Assange while he was in Europe? Something that would be an act of war against an ally?
posted by chris24 at 8:15 AM on October 3, 2016 [21 favorites]


The Wikileaks tweet links to an article at truepundit.com, a website that has a $1 million dollar bounty out for Hillary's medical records. So, I'll go further than not necessarily believing these claims, I'll flat out say it. I'm not buying this bullshit.
posted by palomar at 8:16 AM on October 3, 2016 [35 favorites]


That sounds... unlikely, even by Wikileaks standards.
posted by Artw at 8:17 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't think anything published by Wikileaks is trustworthy at this point.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:17 AM on October 3, 2016 [19 favorites]


I have a really hard time believing that Clinton would use the word "drone" as a verb, other than in the "make a continuous low humming sound" sense.
posted by arcolz at 8:18 AM on October 3, 2016 [11 favorites]


But it's in a typerwriter-looking font! It must be truefax straight from the CIA archives!
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:18 AM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


Hm, Wikileaks claims Hillary suggested assassinating Assange. I don't necessarily trust that, but if it's true, no wonder he hates her. This may hurt her with some voters, but if Assange thinks that the American people on the whole will be as horrified that she could possibly consider hurting him as he is, I dare say he is mistaken.

The idea that she suggested using a drone strike to assassinate an Australian citizen on British, or Swedish soil is just wacky. It defies belief. The only source for this story is that "truepundit" website. Anonymous sources used in the NYT should be given a bit of a side eye, but from a site like that, completely ignored.

On preview, what palomar said.
posted by dis_integration at 8:19 AM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


We're supposed to believe that Clinton seriously wanted to drone Assange while he was in Europe? Something that would be an act of war against an ally?

While this particular thing is ridiculous, it should be noted that the US has no problems engaging in hostile military action to assassinate people on purportedly allied soil.

That's how we killed Osama, after all. But IOKIYARAmerican.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:19 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence has a voting record that's easily used against him. We'll see how things play out at Tuesday's debate.

I was discussing the upcoming veep debate with a relative who pointed out that Kaine usually wears a happy, positive expression, while Pence wears the pinched expression of a man as mean as his record has shown him to be. My relative believes that while, once again, the Republican base might revel in the meanness, the difference will play well with the prevailing narrative in Clinton's favor.
posted by Gelatin at 8:20 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


Second, as they're seeing their power (economic and social) decrease, they see in the last 8 years huge strides for the LGBTQ community, talk about 'those poor black kids getting shot all the time', etc, etc, and they wonder who is looking out for them?

I've heard from like ten different people that it is really, really hard to make it these days as a "normal, middle-class American" and that neither party was talking about it before Trump. Which like, yeah. I completely agree that we are not doing anywhere near enough. But do you not hear progressives talking about income inequality? Kind of a lot?

Apparently it doesn't count if you do not specify that you mean white people.
posted by gerstle at 8:20 AM on October 3, 2016 [22 favorites]


Hm, Wikileaks claims Hillary suggested assassinating Assange.

Assange fantasizes about being that important.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:21 AM on October 3, 2016 [53 favorites]


I'm also not sure how well it'll work when several Trump surrogates have gone on TV in the last 48 hours explicitly stating they're for suppression of (by all accounts legally-obtained) leaks via any means necessary, and Thiel has been noticeably silent.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:22 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Apparently it doesn't count if you do not specify that you mean only white people.


FTFY
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:22 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm very curious to see if abortion will come up in the VP debate. Tim Kaine's personal and political stances on it are almost tailor-made to appeal to Republican women who are uncomfortable with the idea but also uncomfortable with Republican rhetoric about women.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:23 AM on October 3, 2016 [17 favorites]


While this particular thing is ridiculous, it should be noted that the US has no problems engaging in hostile military action to assassinate people on purportedly allied soil.

You're not wrong. But I can't imagine a European ally not turning a drone strike on their soil into a major, alliance destroying, international incident. It doesn't make the fact that we can get away with it in Pakistan or Yemen any better, but still. It's completely beyond the pale to imagine casually suggesting we bomb the streets of say, Stockholm.
posted by dis_integration at 8:24 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


Not that I think anybody should assassinate Assange, but wouldn't using a drone be just about the stupidest possible way to do it? I mean you might as well stick a little American flag in the corpse afterward.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:25 AM on October 3, 2016 [28 favorites]


If anybody's wondering why they might be seeing a lot of weird mentions of big tech companies and candies, there's a reason for that: Racist Social Media Users Have A New Code To Avoid Censorship
posted by zombieflanders at 8:25 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


A quick Senate scorecard
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:26 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


If she was Hillary Brown, or Hillary Jones or Hillary Smith (but not Hillary Roosevelt, Hillary Bush, or Hillary Kennedy) I'd be all in. But there is some part of me that tends to revolt against the idea of familial dynasties in American politics.

George W. Bush was a Kent Dorfman-style legacy who only got into Yale because his father and grandfather went there. His father was President of the United States. His grandfather was a prominent United States Senator.

Hillary Clinton's father ran a small textile business. Her grandfather was an immigrant. She earned a BA with honors from Wellesley College, was the first student in college history to speak at commencement; the speech was featured in Life magazine. She worked as an attorney and children's advocate, earning more than her husband. When Bill Clinton was elected president she was the first first lady to have earned a postgraduate degree and to have her own professional career. She's a two-time US Senator and a former Secretary of State.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:27 AM on October 3, 2016 [174 favorites]


do we need to be regaled by tales of people's racist friends?

I know I can't turn MeFi into a therapy session. (That's what AskMe is for!) But on a limited basis this can be a supportive place for those of us dealing with constant Right-Wing hate and negativity on a personal level, which in its own way is an emotionally abusive situation.

Some of us are bringing long-buried and/or contested personal issues to these confrontations with R-wingers. And yet, like the deep-thinking lefties we are, we constantly try to analyze and understand THEM. Thinking more about them than they ever do about us. (Yep, sounds like an abusive relationship.)

For your own mental health sometimes the answer is to get away from it. So, just as Donny's unleashing more naked hateful bigotry, I'm confronting my life, how I've so tried to please the bigots in my family. The most recent encounters were the decades-in-the-making straw that broke it.

I might currently choose to live in a gun-loving, righty neighborhood cos I like the natural beauty nearby. And I HAVE to work with some scaredy-cat (R) voters. Plus I do want to visit the old mum from time to time. But I have decided I WILL avoid lengthy talks/ visits with the rest of fam. And I HAVE deactivated my FB acct. too.

When you get to the point of imagining it's '32 Germany and your friends/family are gushing about Adolf - that's time to book it out of their lives.

[So long story short - if any Midwestern MeFites want to have an Escape from the Trumpublican Family/ Celebrate Hillary's Victory Thanksgiving, include me in.
And if I start missing the fam, you can:
1. Tell me you've lived off your wife's income for years but think striking teachers should be fired.
2. Explain US Muslims are jihadists cos an expert at your church said so.
3. Casually toss out LGBTQ slurs while I sit there incredulously thinking, You DO know who else is one of Them, don't you?)]
posted by NorthernLite at 8:31 AM on October 3, 2016 [30 favorites]


If she was Hillary Brown, or Hillary Jones or Hillary Smith (but not Hillary Roosevelt, Hillary Bush, or Hillary Kennedy) I'd be all in. But there is some part of me that tends to revolt against the idea of familial dynasties in American politics.

If it weren't for a bunch of sexists in Arkansas during Bill's first turn as governor, she'd be gearing up to be President Rodham right now.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:32 AM on October 3, 2016 [78 favorites]


Great Flounder reference, kirkaracha!
posted by Lyme Drop at 8:34 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]




About Clinton as dynastic: On one hand, yeah, I'm not wild about the whole "the first woman president is the wife of a recent president" thing. On the other hand, in the US and globally this is often how the first women get into political power - several early British and American MPs/Senators were were women whose husbands had died in office or who traded on their political connections, and globally there have been a number of women leaders who were the daughters of important men. Eventually, people get accustomed to women as political leaders (up to a point; not like the world is at a 50/50 ratio yet) and women who don't have an unusual amount of connections can get elected.

The truth is that the world does not trust women to lead. We don't really like it when women have "dynastic" connections, but we are usually unwilling to elect women who don't.
posted by Frowner at 8:35 AM on October 3, 2016 [78 favorites]


The idea that she suggested using a drone strike to assassinate an Australian citizen on British, or Swedish soil is just wacky. It defies belief.

The standing President directed the military to assassinate an American citizen on non-European soil. Wacky or not, American drones have been used to kill political opponents overseas, as much as CIA-run prisons were used to extradite people to countries where it was easy for them to be disappeared or murdered.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 8:37 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is more of a re-election than a dynasty. When we elected Hillary and Bill the first time it was with the understanding that we got them both. They have a deep partnership. Hillary played a key role in managing Bill's political career. In some ways he was the front man and she was the brains behind the operation. If you look at Bill's career she was the one behind his return to the governors mansion in Arkansas, she was the one who turned things around between 1994 and 1996.
posted by humanfont at 8:38 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


Apologies if this video has already been posted but it is FILLING MY HEART WITH JOY #mustshare #tearsofdelight
posted by prefpara at 8:39 AM on October 3, 2016 [22 favorites]


Four years of tax returns all show Donald Trump paid no federal income tax

Might as well link to the article itself instead of to a tweet.
posted by Too-Ticky at 8:39 AM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


I really can't get behind the whole "Clinton dynasty, ew ew ew" thing. She's worked her goddamn ass off for how many decades? But we're going to pretend that she just lucked into all of it? That's a big heaping helping of chauvinism, I tell you what.
posted by palomar at 8:41 AM on October 3, 2016 [104 favorites]


In any event, it's an unsourced and unattributed story from a wanna-be Infowars, passed along by a morally-shady guy (who has a history of doing so) distributing unrelated personal information from private accounts of people who have thus far not even actually "rigged" anything they have been accused of rigging.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:42 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'll also say that even in the context of that unattributed quote, it reads to me more like a joke than an actual suggestion. (That doesn't mean I'd be fine with it if it turned out to be true, because if there's one group of people who shouldn't be making drone jokes, it's the handful of people who actually do have the power to kill people with drones, but it doesn't read like a horrifying slam-dunk to me even if it were true.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:46 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Just to be clear though, Hillary isn't running on anything much like Bill's platform of a "third way". If she was, I'd be far less supportive of her campaign. It's because she's running as herself and as an unabashed liberal that I'm enthusiastic about her presidency. Bill can disappear for all I care. I'm for Hillary.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:49 AM on October 3, 2016 [18 favorites]


> I don't think these people have been conned so much as they're reacting to the proposition that when unearned privilege is removed, it feels like oppression. There's nothing to negotiate. It's not acceptable to let white male privilege remain longer to keep white straight males from feeling bad. It's a struggle where one side wants equity and the other doesn't. How do you compromise between those positions?

This comment brought to mind an article from 2012, The Distress of the Privileged, which used the film Pleasantville as an illustration of the problem of dealing with the formerly privileged (in response to Chik-Fil-A's anti-LGBTQ lobbying):
I think it’s worthwhile to spend a minute or two looking at the world from George Parker’s point of view: He’s a good 1950s TV father. He never set out to be the bad guy. He never meant to stifle his wife’s humanity or enforce a dull conformity on his kids. Nobody ever asked him whether the world should be black-and-white; it just was.

George never demanded a privileged role, he just uncritically accepted the role society assigned him and played it to the best of his ability. And now suddenly that society isn’t working for the people he loves, and they’re blaming him.

It seems so unfair. He doesn’t want anybody to be unhappy. He just wants dinner.

Levels of distress. But even as we accept the reality of George’s privileged-white-male distress, we need to hold on to the understanding that the less privileged citizens of Pleasantville are distressed in an entirely different way. (Margaret Atwood is supposed to have summed up the gender power-differential like this: “Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.”)

George deserves compassion, but his until-recently-ideal housewife Betty Parker (and the other characters assigned subservient roles) deserves justice. George and Betty’s claims are not equivalent, and if we treat them the same way, we do Betty an injustice.
posted by palindromic at 8:49 AM on October 3, 2016 [51 favorites]


The press's problem, ultimately, is the same as the problem all of us with Republican friends on social media face ourselves... How to talk about Trump without showing disdain for his followers.

I was listening to a reporter on NPR describing his discussions with Trump supporters and that it was nearly impossible to honestly engage with them without insulting their intelligence. If you explain that Trump's plan for such and such policy is just complete fantasy, then the implications for those who support those policies are pretty clear.

Or should we try to engage with them? Start a "peace process" before we end up actually at war? That requires a presumption of good faith, an implicit respect for their intelligence and point of view...

If basic rationality and statement of fact is enough to undermine one's core beliefs, how can you engage in good faith? We've seen Obama try to bridge the divide and the press attempt to lend credibility through "balanced" reporting and it has only enabled the normalization of radical thinking. At some point you have to accept that you are already in a culture war and act accordingly.
posted by angrybear at 8:50 AM on October 3, 2016 [20 favorites]


I was skimming this Guardian article, Trump campaign faces biggest crisis yet after tax documents published - no further surprises, of course they're doubling down on "illegal" and not denying the facts at hand, etc.

But the collection of Trump's tweets on taxes at the bottom gives me pause.

"HALF of Americans don't pay income tax despite crippling govt debt..."
Well, Donnie, apparently that includes you?

"Facebook billionaire gives up his U.S. citizenship in order to save taxes. I guess 3.8 billion isn't enough ..."

"The hedge fund guys (gals) have to pay higher taxes ASAP. They are paying practically nothing. We must reduce taxes for the middle class!"

"@BarackObama who wants to raise all our taxes, only pays 20.5% on $790k salary. Do as I say not as I do."
So, like, 20.5% points more than you do?

I don't know about this (I know nothing about 2016) but this sort of pairing can't possibly be playing well with the marginal Republicans, can it? This guy is a tax evader and a failure as a businessman, and he's accusing other people of not paying their taxes?
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:50 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Members of Al Qaeda like Al Awaki were not and are not political opponents. They have foresaken politics for violence and evil. They recruit children to be suicide bombers and send them to blow up civilians. They behead human rights workers and encourage mayhem. There is no place in political life for that behavior. It is outrageous and disgusting to describe these evil people as politics opponents. Trying to equate Al Qaeda leaders with Assange is absurd.
posted by humanfont at 8:51 AM on October 3, 2016 [16 favorites]


Mark Cuban still trolling Trump.

Cuban: Paying taxes 'most patriotic thing you can do as wealthy person'
posted by chris24 at 8:57 AM on October 3, 2016 [34 favorites]


Apologies if this video has already been posted but it is FILLING MY HEART WITH JOY #mustshare #tearsofdelight

Well that got me pretty good.
posted by cashman at 8:57 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


The idea that she suggested using a drone strike to assassinate an Australian citizen on British, or Swedish soil is just wacky.

Going back and reading the old Snowden assassination fantasizes from Pentagon officials, it unfortunately doesn't seem that wacky to me, and we don't seem to have an anti-assassination candidate in the next election, nor did we in the previous one. Not sure whose mind this revelation is going to change except those who thought HRC was a pacifist.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:58 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Members of Al Qaeda like Al Awaki were not and are not political opponents... Trying to equate Al Qaeda leaders with Assange is absurd.

The more conventional term for the group they'd both fit into would be "enemies of the state".
posted by XMLicious at 9:00 AM on October 3, 2016


I would have some dark moment over this particular Wikileak if it got something directly from the pen or email of Hillary herself. A "sources said" account of the meeting means nothing.
posted by argybarg at 9:01 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Due process was suspended for a US citizen, so it's not "wacky" that someone would suggest the same end could be implemented for someone who isn't a citizen, who is deemed a threat in similar language for similar reasons. Anyway, everyone knows where Hillary stands on using the military to solve problems, so as someone else noted it is unlikely to change opinions, whether true or false.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:03 AM on October 3, 2016


Fred Clark: ‘A person who stands against everything that Christianity believes’:
Best-selling evangelical author and long-time Christianity Today columnist Philip Yancey, speaking in Madrid, responds to Spanish Christians asking about the American presidential election.

This reminds me of the earlier statement from another best-selling Christian author, Max Lucado, who denounced Donald Trump back in February. Both Yancey and Lucado are respected writers of many books beloved by white evangelicals. Both are also not known for having much of anything to say about politics — tending to focus mainly on pastoral concerns and personal spirituality. Both men also critique Trump from a similar perspective of traditional white evangelical piety — focusing on the candidate’s history of divorce, infidelity, gambling, and coarse bullying without much acknowledging his long history of racism and bigotry.

I’m not sure Lucado’s statement had much effect even among his biggest white evangelical fans. I suspect Yancey’s words will be similarly inconsequential. The 9-in-10 white evangelicals supporting Trump probably won’t consider the substance of Yancey’s argument — they’ll simply register that he’s turned against their anointed one, and consign him to the very long list of voices they no longer need to heed. (Yancey has already had to publicly reassure white evangelical gatekeepers that he was by no means endorsing Hillary Clinton or any other baby-killing Democrat.)
posted by palindromic at 9:05 AM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


You know, I'm totally sympathetic to Assange when we're talking about the risk that he personally runs by being the public face of Wikileaks. (Although I think it's extremely unlikely that the US would use a drone strike to assassinate the guy on European soil, or probably on any other soil - lots of other assassination methods out there.)

I'm not sympathetic to him when (among other things) he does his level best to insure that we get a Trump presidency. "A Democratic administration has targeted me and others like me for exposing their wrongdoing; therefore I will do my best to make sure that Americans are ruled by a far right strongman, because that will totally improve things"....I mean, look, that's the far-right strongman who literally wants to intern my neighbors. I'm sorry, Assange is in a terrible situation, but I don't want my neighbors interned or the opening up of even more fronts in our perpetual War on Terror.
posted by Frowner at 9:05 AM on October 3, 2016 [31 favorites]


When people are strangers who support Trump, you denounce their views.
When they are family, it's more complicated. Are they abusive, or merely deluded? If so, how do you engage?

Pretty sure that all should go into an Ask but suffice to say that it's going to depend on a lot of factors.
posted by emjaybee at 9:06 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


I was listening to a reporter on NPR describing his discussions with Trump supporters and that it was nearly impossible to honestly engage with them without insulting their intelligence. If you explain that Trump's plan for such and such policy is just complete fantasy, then the implications for those who support those policies are pretty clear.

QFT. I had to stop the discussion last night for this very reason. And with my brother, the idea that his big sister would find him to be indulging in fantasy or just not thinking critically, brings up all kinds of subconscious wounds.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:06 AM on October 3, 2016 [14 favorites]


@anamariecox: Trump on vet suicide: “they see things…a lot of folks in this room see & you’re strong & you can handle it, but some ppl can’t handle it.”

This, from a man who avoided serving in the military because of "bone spurs" and called a bout of gonnorhea his "personal Vietnam."
posted by zombieflanders at 9:09 AM on October 3, 2016 [45 favorites]


When people are strangers who support Trump, you denounce their views.
When they are family, it's more complicated. Are they abusive, or merely deluded? If so, how do you engage?


I don't know why it's more complicated, except that people apparently feel the need to characterize their family members or friends as "usually so smart and rational, but..." It just normalizes the behavior and I don't have a lot of sympathy for it.
posted by zutalors! at 9:09 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]




I'm sorry, Assange is in a terrible situation, but I don't want my neighbors interned or the opening up of even more fronts in our perpetual War on Terror.

Assange put himself in his own situation. Lest we forget, he's attempting to avoid going to court over sexual assault allegations, not trying to avoid being killed by a drone strike. He's tried to paint these charges at politically motivated, which is questionable at best. At this point I think we ought to ignore both him and Wikileaks.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:16 AM on October 3, 2016 [52 favorites]


When people are strangers who support Trump, you denounce their views.
When they are family, it's more complicated. Are they abusive, or merely deluded? If so, how do you engage?


I think our belief that we really know and trust and connect with the people in our families or friend groups is a pleasant delusion. Something about familial/cultural/circumstantial ties entrains us into believing we have a deep kinship and shared values. Then something comes along and teaches us that we may be in fact surrounded by strangers.

It's one of the painful conditions of being alive, and one of the reason this election feels so corrosive to our national psyche. It turns out we don't actually know each other and may not belong together.
posted by argybarg at 9:16 AM on October 3, 2016 [40 favorites]


@anamariecox: Trump on vet suicide: “they see things…a lot of folks in this room see & you’re strong & you can handle it, but some ppl can’t handle it.”

This, from a man who avoided serving in the military because of "bone spurs" and called a bout of gonnorhea his "personal Vietnam."


One of the many horrible effects of Trump's awful, unacceptable bigotry and sexism is how it distracts from all the other reasons he's completely fucking unacceptable on any level. We could go on and on about all that, and we have, and yet here we are.

That's the thing that infuriates me most about Trump's base. This dude presents so many reasons why he'd be disastrous even for the straight white male demographic, and yet so many of them are down with him. They're willing to accept all those awful flaws as long as he'll hold the line on their white supremacy.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:17 AM on October 3, 2016 [15 favorites]


I don't know why it's more complicated, except that people apparently feel the need to characterize their family members or friends as "usually so smart and rational, but..." It just normalizes the behavior and I don't have a lot of sympathy for it.

It normalizes the behavior because it is normal. Humans fall for con men; humans obey strongmen. It's what we do. If Trump wasn't playing on ancient instincts, he wouldn't be where he is. Those of us who see through it are the beneficiaries of good sense, education and luck, and there's no guarantee that tomorrow we won't be the marks of someone else we think is on our side.

I'm struggling to love and understand people who dandled me as as a child, people I held as soft-headed infants, being Trumpists. In my own situation, I think this is far better than declaring them dead to me. I don't expect other people, in other families, to feel that way all the time.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:17 AM on October 3, 2016 [42 favorites]


people apparently feel the need to characterize their family members or friends as "usually so smart and rational, but..."
The strange thing is that my family Trump supporter is truly one of the most generous and supportive people in my family. He is literally surrounded by everything that scares him to death in his own family--queer people, atheists, PoC, the disabled, the mentally ill, the deliberately childless--and he would give any of us fitting those categories his last dime and the shirt off his back to help us if we were in need. He has certainly had my back when my parents were all, "drop dead." But he cannot translate that generosity of spirit to communities that scare him outside his family. Like, it's fine that I'm on the dole because I really need to be, but everyone else on disability is probably just lazy and scamming the government. That's quite a lot of cognitive dissonance, right?
posted by xyzzy at 9:17 AM on October 3, 2016 [53 favorites]


• TRUMP: the COMING LANDSLIDE ~ Ancient Prophecy Documentary of Donald Trump, a screed by a guy named Trey Smith who does videos about aliens and dinosaurs and Nephilim and dragons. It's remarkable how little difference there is between a Trump campaign advisor and a lunatic grifter on YouTube.

I didn't know Trump University had a Mentat program.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:18 AM on October 3, 2016 [15 favorites]


Nate with the understatement.

@Nate_Cohn: Decent national polling for Clinton (pre-debate in parenthesis)
Rasmussen: Clinton+3 (Trump+5)
Morning Consult: Clinton+6 (Trump+1)

8 and 7 point swings makes it seem people paid attention this last week.
posted by chris24 at 9:21 AM on October 3, 2016 [15 favorites]


I don't know why it's more complicated, except that people apparently feel the need to characterize their family members or friends as "usually so smart and rational, but..." It just normalizes the behavior and I don't have a lot of sympathy for it.

It normalizes the behavior because it is normal. Humans fall for con men; humans obey strongmen. It's what we do. If Trump wasn't playing on ancient instincts, he wouldn't be where he is. Those of us who see through it are the beneficiaries of good sense, education and luck, and there's no guarantee that tomorrow we won't be the marks of someone else we think is on our side.


No, it normalizes racist behavior because people like their friends and family and don't want to believe they support racists. That's the "ancient behavior," and that's fine, but it's sickening to rationalize the behavior because something something humans.
posted by zutalors! at 9:21 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


Hillary Clinton's father ran a small textile business...

I'm not saying she's not eminently qualified for the job. Intellectually, I even understand that a large part of the experience and knowledge that makes her so qualified she gained during her stint as FLOTUS. And it doesn't bother me enough not to vote for her over Trump. Hell, I'd vote for her if she was running against Romney, McCain, Bush, Dole, the other Bush, Reagan, Nixon, Goldwater and, probably Ford. So compared to all the other issues that govern my decision about who I'd like to see in the White House, it's effect is minuscule.

But somewhere, like the third decimal place of shit that seems important, it bugs me.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 9:24 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


I fortunately don't encounter this dilemma too much in my life (my parents' politics are bad in a lolbertarian way, but they are not racists, misogynists, homophobes, islamophobes or Trumpists) but I stopped and listened to some BLM activists who had set up a mic on a corner near my work the other day and they pleaded with white people to not let Crazy Uncle Joe slide on his casual racism any longer. It was a pretty central message (the other being to VOTE DOWNBALLOT AND MIDTERM--oh those scary scary BLM people and their terrifying black radicalism!). The standard liberal response to the nutty -ist family members has been for a long time to just grit your teeth and "bless your heart" and then go to the bathroom and furiously text your boyfriend about the hell you are currently in. And, like, maybe that's how we got to where we are now?

I feel like more than political scientists and journalists what this election really needs are some psychologists. But, again, I can be emphatic about this because I don't really have to do it much. I've had some uncomfortable conversations with my mom, but she's a reasonable, rational person who also is just really sheltered. I did almost get into a fistfight about marriage equality in a liquor store back in the early-aughts, though. (Picture my husband dragging me out as I toss, "You're a bigot!" over my shoulder.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:24 AM on October 3, 2016 [11 favorites]




people apparently feel the need to characterize their family members or friends as "usually so smart and rational, but..."

The strange thing is that my family Trump supporter is truly one of the most generous and supportive people in my family


No, it's not strange, it's literally "I have black friends" or "those are the good ones"
posted by zutalors! at 9:26 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


That's quite a lot of cognitive dissonance, right?

Without cognitive dissonance, none of us would be able to get up in the morning.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:27 AM on October 3, 2016 [21 favorites]


But somewhere, like the third decimal place of shit that seems important, it bugs me.

The more I learn about Clinton's life story, the clearer it becomes that she teamed up with Bill at least partly because she felt she would never be allowed to rise to this level as a woman on her own. And you know what, she might have been right. There's a reason she's the first serious female candidate: this country has only recently, only barely begun to accept the idea as anything more than a hilarious joke.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:28 AM on October 3, 2016 [63 favorites]


It just normalizes the behavior and I don't have a lot of sympathy for it.

It normalizes the behavior because it is normal. Humans fall for con men; humans obey strongmen. It's what we do.


Quoted for truth. Or as Terry Pratchett puts it “Whoever had created humanity had left in a major design flaw. It was its tendency to bend at the knees.”

And I feel like the opposite of "normalizing" is "dehumanizing." And that's not what we want to do either. Is there space between? How do we say "these ideas are not okay, but I still love and respect you?" Can these people even separate the ideas from their own identities? Can we?

I really do think it's very similar to working with someone who has been taken in by a cult, or "radicalized" by a terrorist group -- or yes, conned out of their retirement savings, because there is a huge amount of overlap in those groups anyway. Terrorist groups sell weird religious ideas and con people out of their savings. Cults make people do violent things and con people out of their savings. Con artists isolate people from their families and can cause people to do desperate things.

But I don't know that we actually have any very good responses to those kinds of behaviors either. To the extent that there is such a thing as "standard" deprogramming techniques, they seem to be controversial and to not work very well. Still, I did find this article with advice from a guy who works with cult-victims on how to talk to Trump supporters. This kind of thing may be the best we can do, without actual physical conflict.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:29 AM on October 3, 2016 [21 favorites]


I don't know why it's more complicated, except that people apparently feel the need to characterize their family members or friends as "usually so smart and rational, but..."

It's complicated because we have to live with these people, and not ignore them.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:32 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Art of the Steal: This is How Trump Lost $916M and Avoided Tax by David Cay Johnston
posted by airish at 9:33 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm not entirely sure how some of my stepfamily are voting. They've not said anything pro-Trump on Facebook, but a couple times they've replied to things I've posted with "she's a criminal who should be in prison." I'm clinging to an assumption that maybe they just won't vote at all.
posted by dnash at 9:33 AM on October 3, 2016




It's complicated because we have to live with these people, and not ignore them


Right, so you want to assume they're smart and rational and this is just some weird blip, but this is who they really are. They're unsmart irrational racists, sorry.
posted by zutalors! at 9:33 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


I've been loving these threads! Thanks everyone. I've been entertained, educated, and embraced by the mood here.

My volunteer moment will be poll watching, but in blue and urbanish Northern Virginia. I don't have the guts or time to travel somewhere seriously red. Even in the fancy lawyer suit and $10 words, 5'2" isn't particularly intimidating

Also, Gold star to delfin for the thematic pun "Central PA, on the other hand, is raging against the dying of the white."
posted by Measured Out my Life in Coffeespoons at 9:34 AM on October 3, 2016 [16 favorites]


I think we're also seeing the difference between private morality and public morality or, more generally, our private and public selves.

How many people believe they are kind and well-meaning but shy? A lot of times this equates to: cold and unsupportive in their public dealings. Which equates to: Not actually kind or well-meaning, at least not in a way that matters.

We ought to all honor our public engagements and be good people in an outward, demonstrable way. But the old forms of public engagement (church, civic discourse, democratic participation, neighborhood, clubs and organizations) have fallen below critical mass and don't do much any more. The replacements are bullshit like shopping responsibly and Xbox voice chat lines.

As humans, we tend to write massive disclaimers for our own morality (I'm really nice, even if I don't do anything about it), good-sized disclaimers for our friends and family (wouldn't hurt a fly, I just wish he'd get off Facebook) and merciless about the Others. Not pretty, and not the foundations of a well-functioning society.
posted by argybarg at 9:34 AM on October 3, 2016 [11 favorites]


It's complicated because we have to live with these people, and not ignore them

Right, so you want to assume they're smart and rational and this is just some weird blip, but this is who they really are. They're unsmart irrational racists, sorry.


Or, maybe all of the irrational racists are actually not irredeemably evil and unreachable, despite what we might like to think in order to make ourselves feel better?
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:35 AM on October 3, 2016 [25 favorites]


So the people that want to suspend habeus corpus, intern US citizens, torture Muslims, kill their families, hang Chelsea Manning, etc. etc. -- Those are the people who have a problem with a drone strike on Assange?

If Assange was leaking anything other than anti-Hilary stuff, they'd be screaming for a nuke strike on the Ecuadorian Embassy.
posted by PlusDistance at 9:35 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


How do we say "these ideas are not okay, but I still love and respect you?"

Something to keep in mind is Jay Smooth's advice about telling people they just did or said something racist. You don't say "You are racist" you say "What you did/said was racist." Make it about the statement or the act, not about the person.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:35 AM on October 3, 2016 [25 favorites]


Sorry, this is the advice from the cult deprogrammer. Copied URL form wrong browser window, though that link is also relevant. :-(
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:35 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's complicated because we have to live with these people, and not ignore them

Right, so you want to assume they're smart and rational and this is just some weird blip, but this is who they really are. They're unsmart irrational racists, sorry.

Or, maybe all of the irrational racists are actually not irredeemably evil and unreachable


I didn't say anyone was evil. That's the problem with talking about racism, it gets everyone's back up, even among supposed allies. Oh sure, Trump supporters are supporting racism en masse, but if it's someone's family member, they are a smart totally rational person who is the most supportive ever, and is just mad about their 401K, and it's human nature!
posted by zutalors! at 9:37 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


When I look at the way we were able to shift public opinion on LGBT issues in a couple of decades, and then I see liberals insisting that racists just gonna racist and they'll never listen and there's nothing we can do about it, I just plain do not understand it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:39 AM on October 3, 2016 [67 favorites]


If there were any remaining military members thinking of voting for Trump "your dead friends couldn't handle it" should take care of that, right?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:39 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


You don't say "You are racist" you say "What you did/said was racist." Make it about the statement or the act, not about the person.

This. Teachers have to use this sort of language in the classroom all the time. There's a world of difference between telling a kid "This thing you're doing is dumb" or "that was a dumb thing to do" versus "You're dumb." The first two, while harsh, are not categorical statements about the person.

That said, I tend to separate the patience and tolerance I'll show kids from what I'll offer to adults who should know better. I get the sentiment, but I'm also kinda past not calling a lie a lie, so I'm pretty torn on this issue.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:40 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


How do we say "these ideas are not okay, but I still love and respect you?" Can these people even separate the ideas from their own identities? Can we?

If you engage in racist, sexist, homophobic, and transphobic behaviors (among others), work to enact them in public policy, cast doubt on my own humanity, and refuse any accountability for your actions, then guess what: I can't say, "I love and respect you*". #sorrynotatallsorry

*Beyond the respect I hold for each human life.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:40 AM on October 3, 2016 [20 favorites]



If you engage in racist, sexist, homophobic, and transphobic behaviors (among others), work to enact them in public policy, cast doubt on my own humanity, and refuse any accountability for your actions, then guess what: I can't say, "I love and respect you*". #sorrynotatallsorry


Yeah, this.
posted by zutalors! at 9:41 AM on October 3, 2016


I have a lot to say about racist families but this feels like a derail; I'll wait for the Ask.
posted by emjaybee at 9:43 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


If there were any remaining military members thinking of voting for Trump "your dead friends couldn't handle it" should take care of that, right?

Sadly, no. There's a lot of longstanding irrational Clinton/Hillary-hate out there, and a lot of "Oh, well, he's wrong about that one guy I knew, but yeah, most 'PTSD' is just whining."
posted by Etrigan at 9:44 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


she relates to trump bc he's like the idiotic blustering men she knows. she knows how to deal with him. hrc frightens her, i feel. i hadn't really taken the time to think about that before. and i don't know how you cross that divide.

This makes a lot of sense, thanks for the insight.

The way you cross the divide is to elect a woman as president, so your friend can see how great of a job she does. And then her fear of the unknown disappears, because it's not unknown any longer.

This is how public opinion turned so quickly on gay rights. Once people came out, both IRL and virutally (on popular TV shows such as Modern Family and Glee), the light dispelled the shadowy fears.
posted by msalt at 9:44 AM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


If there were any remaining military members thinking of voting for Trump "your dead friends couldn't handle it" should take care of that, right?

I wish. But as I said above, no, because 1) so many of them will accept that and all the rest of his bullshit as long as he supports their white supremacy and 2) because a lot of them will never hear it in that context and his statement will be spun away by the true believers, anyway.

Also, we shouldn't ignore that Trump just straight-up enabled and supported a lot of the unhealthy thinking that prevents many vets from seeking out help they actually need. This is right up there with the way his speeches encourage racial violence (and we've seen an uptick in hate crimes for it). His candidacy is actively hurting people, whether he wins or not. This nightmare is real.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:44 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Whitewater prosecutor Michael Chertoff endorses HRC.
Over the weekend, Chertoff -- the former secretary of Homeland Security -- told me his decision came down to national security. "I realized we spent a huge amount of time in the '90s on issues that were much less important than what was brewing in terms of terrorism," he said. For Chertoff, Clinton "has good judgment and a strategic vision how to deal with the threats that face us." ... "People can go back decades and perhaps criticize some of the judgments that were made," Chertoff said. "That is very, very insignificant compared to the fundamental issue of how to protect the country." Just as Chertoff does not think Clinton's dodgy friendships from her Arkansas days disqualify her from the presidency, he says the same thing about Clinton's use of a private e-mail system. It was a mistake, he said, but "she did not intentionally endanger national security."
posted by maudlin at 9:45 AM on October 3, 2016 [58 favorites]


If there were any remaining military members thinking of voting for Trump "your dead friends couldn't handle it" should take care of that, right?

This is ambiguous: are you saying their dead friends would abhor their voting for Trump, or that Trump would say of their dead friends that they "couldn't handle it" (where "it" is war and they couldn't handle it because they let the enemy kill them like dogs) and they should therefore not vote for him? Either one seems true and potentially effective.
posted by contraption at 9:45 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


contraption, I was implying that anyone who says that people with mental illness just can't handle war atrocities is unfit for the presidency
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:49 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


But somewhere, like the third decimal place of shit that seems important, it bugs me.

That's because you're looking at this backwards.

Political dynasties are bad because, well, there's ten thousand years of human history to judge, and hereditary rule is pretty much the worst form of succession that a society can choose. That's why we instinctually shy away from the idea of it (when we're not busy electing George W. Bush. Twice.). And Hilary has the same last name as Bill, so hey, same thing, right?

Except the mounting evidence is that it's actually HILARY who is the hyper-competent policy wonk, who understood from the age of 19 or so that there was no glass ceiling that could stop her if she was allowed to compete on her own merits. So she hitched her wagon to another hyper-competent person, who as an added bonus walked and talked like a good ol' boy. THe two of them took Arkansas by storm, and then they (notice I say "they" and not "he" because at this point it's impossible to retroactively tell whose ambition and sweat made this possible) made it to the highest office in the land. There, they endured eight years of the absolutely most heinous shit that Newt fucking Gengrich could send their way. And EIGHT YEARS LATER, even knowing how the sausage gets made, Hilary threw her name back in that ring, because goddamnit she'd been preparing for this job since she was a wunderkind at Wellesley, and she knew exactly what the job entailed and how she was going to go about doing it.

And eight years after THAT, here she is again, being subjected to the same character smears that have been flung at her for most of her adult life. Except now she has twenty-five years of social progress to benefit from, and suddenly it's not unthinkable to have a woman as commander-in-chief (in large part because of progressive policies that came out of her husband's administration), and she doesn't have to stand in the shadow of anyone, because it is her fucking time to shine.

This ain't no dynasty. This is Hilary motherfucking Rodham finally entering center-stage to take the role she was born to play. Khaleesi is coming to Westeros. She's not riding on Bill's coattails; all available evidence suggests that, if anything, it was him riding on her coattails twenty-five years ago. This isn't a political dynasty, this is two of the most talented political talents of our generation, joining forces and giving each other a leg up into the toughest job in the land. And now you want to vote for a fascist orange muppet because they have the same last name?
posted by Mayor West at 9:50 AM on October 3, 2016 [189 favorites]


Mod note: Folks, everybody's got to deal with their own families and friends they way they can, and while I can see some value in talking about one's personal perspective on strategy and bright lines and such there once we get into the level of telling other people how they have to deal with or think about or manage their relationships that's way farther than a MetaFilter conversation can really reasonably accommodate. Let's ease back some here and move on.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:50 AM on October 3, 2016 [20 favorites]


contraption, it was a paraphrase of Trump’s comments on suicide by military service members.
posted by mbrubeck at 9:50 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


If there were any remaining military members thinking of voting for Trump "your dead friends couldn't handle it" should take care of that, right?

Sadly, no. There's a lot of longstanding irrational Clinton/Hillary-hate out there, and a lot of "Oh, well, he's wrong about that one guy I knew, but yeah, most 'PTSD' is just whining."


Anecdata, but one of my favorite in-laws is a legal officer in the armed forces, and reports that he and all of his colleagues are firmly pro-Hillary. This recent comment by Trump just cements that and pisses them off.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:51 AM on October 3, 2016 [10 favorites]


My father would not support this kind of campaign, if this is what the Republican Party wants leave us Reagans out. Nancy would vote for HRC
— Michael Reagan @ReaganWorld 10:30 PM - 2 Oct 2016
Reagan is the President of The Reagan Legacy Foundation and Newsmax contributor. No surprise that he has some unhappy twitter followers right now.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:54 AM on October 3, 2016 [107 favorites]


Like, it's fine that I'm on the dole because I really need to be, but everyone else on disability is probably just lazy and scamming the government. That's quite a lot of cognitive dissonance, right?

I think this is less cognitive dissonance than it is a pretty common failure in empathy. There's a few leaps we all make in being empathetic, from first people we already know and love, then to people who are similar to us in very recognizable ways - often including racially and on gender lines - and then to people who maybe we don't see ourselves in very much at all. I'd wager a huge portion of the world doesn't make that last jump, maybe even over half of the world.

For a lot of history that wasn't a muscle we much needed to develop. When human reach was shorter and communities more homogenous it didn't make as much difference if we didn't recognize the ways "those folks" needed some help because we weren't likely to be asked or able to help them anyway. But with a large nation and a more blended population because of human mobility it's more important to be able to see that person is hurting regardless of how dissimilar they are.

I'm not sure how we drag folks over that last line. I'm sure there's no shortage of research on it, but doing it while also getting people to vote in politicians who will address the needs of folks who maybe don't look like that voter? Maybe this is a matter we need a larger ongoing effort for, beyond individual elections and candidates.
posted by phearlez at 9:55 AM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


While this particular thing is ridiculous, it should be noted that the US has no problems engaging in hostile military action to assassinate people on purportedly allied soil.

The UK isn't Pakistan. Pakistan isn't really an ally, just a frenemy. And its choices were basically to either pretend that it's okay with limited air strikes and incursions by the US, which it halfway actually is depending on who's getting blown up that day, or to have its capacity for air defense destroyed and then have the limited air strikes and incursions happen anyway.

The idea of the US firing a hellfire or dropping a jdam on the Ecuadorean embassy right in the middle of Knightsbridge is just silly. As goofy as saying that the US plans to assassinate the queen or to steal all of Britain's curry.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:56 AM on October 3, 2016 [13 favorites]


Reagan is the President of The Reagan Legacy Foundation and Newsmax contributor. No surprise that he has some unhappy twitter followers right now.
posted by octobersurprise


Hooooly shit. This is some next-level shade being thrown. This is Trump being excommunicated by the Vatican.

I'm not sure if I'm more pleased by this tweet, or the inevitable angry blacklash that Donald will unleash later today, publicly lambasting St. Reagan.

(also, eponysterical)
posted by Mayor West at 9:57 AM on October 3, 2016 [23 favorites]


Whitewater prosecutor Michael Chertoff endorses HRC.

Thx, maudlin. Bookmark for the next time you encounter a 'she belongs in prison' person.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:57 AM on October 3, 2016 [13 favorites]


Republicans are starting to go after Tim Kaine. If the worst they can bring up about him is that he hates the death penalty, well good luck with that. In his words, his 'faith teaches life is sacred'. I imagine if the death penalty comes up during tomorrow's VP debate, it will make drastically clear the difference between Kaine and Pence, and it will not help Trump reach new people.
posted by airish at 9:58 AM on October 3, 2016 [12 favorites]


We won the Revolutionary War but we screwed it up, we should have taken the curry!
posted by contraption at 9:58 AM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


The idea of the US firing a hellfire or dropping a jdam on the Ecuadorean embassy right in the middle of Knightsbridge is just silly. As goofy as saying that the US plans to assassinate the queen or to steal all of Britain's curry.

Sorry. The point being that "We can't announce our big important thing because we're worried about security for the embassy" is only marginally less transparent bullshit than "...because your heads would literally-literally explode" or "...because it would anger Azathoth."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:00 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Cuban: Paying taxes 'most patriotic thing you can do as wealthy person'

Mark Cuban's behavior throughout this election has made me feel so so so much better about enjoying Shark Tank as a guilty pleasure. Which is good, because I really fucking like me some Shark Tank.

A delightful aspect of the Cuban trolling is that Shark Tank is, in many ways, Mark Burnett's attempt to improve upon the formula of The Apprentice. It's all board room conversation, zero gimmicky stunt-promo events. And it stars five people who know business like Donald Trump wishes he knew business. (Mind you, Mr. Wonderful is all kinds of squicky human being himself, but at least the dude's no Trump. And he's not an idiot, at the very least.)
posted by rorgy at 10:01 AM on October 3, 2016 [10 favorites]


Just wanted to let y'all know that my husband, who has never voted in his life, will be registering to vote against Trump. No specific reason but more of a critical capacity of bullshit that is pissing him off so much he's going to register and vote.
posted by LizBoBiz at 10:01 AM on October 3, 2016 [61 favorites]


Political dynasties are bad because, well, there's ten thousand years of human history to judge, and hereditary rule is pretty much the worst form of succession that a society can choose. That's why we instinctually shy away from the idea of it (when we're not busy electing George W. Bush. Twice.). And Hilary has the same last name as Bill, so hey, same thing, right?

Um, I'm not in favor of hereditary rule but if I had to choose between living in a stable hereditary monarchy (where the monarch both ruled and reigned, to be clear) and living in a society where the ruler got chosen by some controversial set of rules often tending to brief civil wars, I choose the former. Orderly succession is better than months or years of political chaos every time the King kicks it, that's why "the King is dead, long live the King" was so important.

Agreed on the larger point, of course; calling Hillary and Bill a "dynasty" is the weakest of sauce.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:01 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


Donald Trump Wants to Write Your Tweets

Wait. Their big plan is to email and text people with stuff they're supposed to tweet during the debates? I don't think they understand how Twitter works. For their supporters who don't have Twitter accounts, maybe they can telex letters for people to mail?
posted by zachlipton at 10:02 AM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


The more I know about Kaine, the more I like him. I simply cannot wait for him to trounce Pence good and proper tomorrow night.
posted by mochapickle at 10:02 AM on October 3, 2016 [15 favorites]


Republicans are starting to go after Tim Kaine. If the worst they can bring up about him is that he hates the death penalty, well good luck with that.

It was a loser attack in 2005 when he ran for governor of Va. His republican challenger hit him hard over his opposition to the death penalty, Kaine did a very good job of explaining his relationship with his faith and his belief in upholding his oath of office and carrying out the law even when it conflicted with his personal beliefs. He essential won the election with his skillful defense on this issue, so it's beyond brain-dead to try to attack along the same line again.
posted by peeedro at 10:03 AM on October 3, 2016 [13 favorites]


We won the Revolutionary War but we screwed it up, we should have taken the curry!

the biggest lie that history perpetuates is that wars have winners. one side just loses less than the other.
posted by philip-random at 10:04 AM on October 3, 2016 [16 favorites]


We won the Revolutionary War but we screwed it up, we should have taken the curry!

Umm, not funny. Also I don't think the people who were in the process of conquering the subcontinent had yet brought back too much of its culinary traditions, they were still working on the cash and treasure at the time of the American Revolution.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:05 AM on October 3, 2016


itshappening.gif
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:05 AM on October 3, 2016 [15 favorites]


"The biggest lie that history perpetuates is that wars have winners. One side just loses less than the other."

Did someone famous say that or did you just say that? Because that's a damn good line and I'm going to be repeating it.
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:06 AM on October 3, 2016 [10 favorites]


quick someone tweet an offer for some stupid reality TV show that makes DJT the center of everything to @realdonaldtrump. That's all he really wants.

then schedule it for 3am on Sunday night and taunt him with the Sad! ratings.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:07 AM on October 3, 2016


One does not fuck around with Azathoth.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 10:07 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


For Chertoff, Clinton "has good judgment and a strategic vision how to deal with the threats that face us." ... "People can go back decades and perhaps criticize some of the judgments that were made," Chertoff said. "That is very, very insignificant compared to the fundamental issue of how to protect the country." Just as Chertoff does not think Clinton's dodgy friendships from her Arkansas days disqualify her from the presidency, he says the same thing about Clinton's use of a private e-mail system. It was a mistake, he said, but "she did not intentionally endanger national security."

NOW?? NOW, YOU ASSHOLE? You've spent years dragging her through the mud and after everyone has used your words and your investigations to crucify her, you decide her opponent is dangerous and you are all "can't we all just get along." STUPID, SHORT SIGHTED, RIGHT WING, SELF-SERVING MOTHER FUCKER.

(i'm a little angry this morning.)
posted by Sophie1 at 10:08 AM on October 3, 2016 [43 favorites]


@KatyTurNBC: #BREAKING NY AG sends Cease and Desist to Trump Foundation for operating without proper certification.

And here's Hope Hicks on the issue:
“While we remain very concerned about the political motives behind A.G. Schneiderman’s investigation, the Trump Foundation nevertheless intends to cooperate fully with the investigation. Because this is an ongoing legal matter, the Trump Foundation will not comment further at this time.”
posted by mochapickle at 10:08 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Air it on the Dumont Network. An ivory snow soap fan like Trump would love it.
posted by drezdn at 10:09 AM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


Wait. Their big plan is to email and text people with stuff they're supposed to tweet during the debates?

Better yet, I'm sure anyone in the media can use a throwaway account to sign up for the push notifications, so when everyone starts tweeting how awesome Trump is, they can be all "yeah, astroturf" and not "amazing groundswell of support!"

If you're going to run an astroturf campaign, you don't publicly announce it. Sheesh, what amateurs.
posted by Gelatin at 10:09 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


The UK isn't Pakistan. Pakistan isn't really an ally, just a frenemy. And its choices were basically to either pretend that it's okay with limited air strikes and incursions by the US, which it halfway actually is depending on who's getting blown up that day, or to have its capacity for air defense destroyed and then have the limited air strikes and incursions happen anyway.

Yes, it's a weak vassal state whereas the UK is an autonomous province of the empire. Nevertheless, international law does have a concept of sovereignty that says this isn't okay, and just because the US implicitly (& often explicitly) doesn't respect the law doesn't mean we get to say the law is not what it is.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:11 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Here's a link to an actual article instead of a tweet (can we please stop doing that?)

State Attorney General Orders Trump Foundation to Cease Raising Money in New York
posted by monospace at 10:12 AM on October 3, 2016 [49 favorites]



@KatyTurNBC: #BREAKING NY AG sends Cease and Desist to Trump Foundation for operating without proper certification.


This seems like a big deal
posted by zutalors! at 10:14 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


Umm, not funny. Also I don't think the people who were in the process of conquering the subcontinent had yet brought back too much of its culinary traditions, they were still working on the cash and treasure at the time of the American Revolution.

Yeah, sorry, I was trying to channel a hopelessly ignorant racist narcissist. Not the best thing to do on the internet, I guess, even if you're kidding and are really sure everyone reading will get it.
posted by contraption at 10:15 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


The tweeting thing is helpful -- I usually hit paywalls early in the month.
posted by mochapickle at 10:15 AM on October 3, 2016 [15 favorites]


Wait. Their big plan is to email and text people with stuff they're supposed to tweet during the debates? I don't think they understand how Twitter works. For their supporters who don't have Twitter accounts, maybe they can telex letters for people to mail?

And thus it came to pass in this brave new year of 2016 that the masterful engineering principles of Rube Goldberg were finally applied to the field of communications.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:15 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wiki leaks announcement, October surprise still on for tomorrow, says Inquisitor.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 10:15 AM on October 3, 2016


Yeah, sorry, I was trying to channel a hopelessly ignorant racist narcissist. Not the best thing to do on the internet, I guess, even if you're kidding and are really sure everyone reading will get it.

Ah, ok. It was far too calm in tone for me to pick that up. :(
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:16 AM on October 3, 2016


This seems like a big deal

Another straw on top.
posted by cashman at 10:17 AM on October 3, 2016


Wiki leaks announcement, October surprise still on for tomorrow, says Inquisitor.

Not sure what website this is, but the announcement was never going to be Tuesday anyway.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:18 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mr. Schneiderman, a Democrat and a supporter of Mr. Trump’s opponent, Hillary Clinton, has also asserted in a separate pending case that Mr. Trump defrauded students who participated in Trump University, his for-profit educational program.

The best possible result from this election: Trump gets buried under legal troubles, financially ruined by debt and tax avoidance scheme collapse, and the brands of Ivanka Trump and the other Trumplings (other than Tiffany) are rendered so toxic they have to retire from public life. Please please please.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:19 AM on October 3, 2016 [23 favorites]


every time you but think "surely, this" jeb!!!!!!!!!!!! adds another exclamation mark to the end of his name
posted by Tevin at 10:19 AM on October 3, 2016 [32 favorites]


every time you but think "surely, this" jeb!!!!!!!!!!!! adds another exclamation mark to the end of his name

yea exactly.
posted by zutalors! at 10:20 AM on October 3, 2016


State Attorney General Orders Trump Foundation to Cease Raising Money in New York

OK, good. I was just complaining to my wife last night that I don't understand how a foundation doing what Trump's is doing is allowed to continue operations without proper registration and documentation.
posted by nubs at 10:21 AM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


>@KatyTurNBC: #BREAKING NY AG sends Cease and Desist to Trump Foundation for operating without proper certification.

This seems like a big deal


I imagine the substantive case will wander off vaguely, in the end. The real value is that it's another day of losing the news cycle for a candidate and team who only know how to win the news cycle, and only understand winning in the context of "days of having won the cycle"; and conversely, as negative stories pile up against each other Trump gets more and more agitated, stupid and double-down-ish.

every time you but think "surely, this" jeb!!!!!!!!!!!! adds another exclamation mark to the end of his name

Ah, so this is where all the periods are going off the ends of our sentences - jeb is hoarding them for his little exclamation point factory
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:22 AM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]




>@KatyTurNBC: #BREAKING NY AG sends Cease and Desist to Trump Foundation for operating without proper certification.

This seems like a big deal

I imagine the substantive case will wander off vaguely, in the end. The real value is that it's another day of losing the news cycle for a candidate and team who only know how to win the news cycle, and only understand winning in the context of "days of having won the cycle"; and conversely, as negative stories pile up against each other Trump gets more and more agitated, stupid and double-down-ish.


It also just feels like for months now a lot of us have been like, "Is anyone SEEING THIS???" and feeling like we're shouting into the void of Chuck Todd's false equivalence. But between the debate behavior and the cease and desist and whatever else it feels like people are seeing.
posted by zutalors! at 10:24 AM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


Not sure what website this is, but the announcement was never going to be Tuesday anyway.

While I was there I did learn that Paris Hilton is all grown up, a DJ, and looking for a soulmate. So it wasn't a total loss.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:25 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wiki leaks announcement, October surprise still on for tomorrow, says Inquisitor.

how many times can they postpone this stupid nothingburger until it sheds its essence of unexpectedness to become the October Scheduled?
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:26 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wiki leaks announcement, October surprise still on for tomorrow, says Inquisitor.

It's not much of surprise if you announce it, now is it?
posted by octobersurprise at 10:26 AM on October 3, 2016 [14 favorites]


...the brands of Ivanka Trump and the other Trumplings (other than Tiffany) are rendered so toxic they have to retire from public life. Please please please.
Nah. They'll rebuild their Donald Free (tm) brand with some type of reality show.
posted by xyzzy at 10:28 AM on October 3, 2016


So I went and checked the Wikileaks twitter - they're announcing something tomorrow in Berlin, all right. Was the whole "security threat" thing just...security theater?

What strikes me with Wikileaks and a couple of other sites I used to look at regularly before this election cycle (Naked Capitalism, for instance, which I still read) is that they've gone so anti-Hillary that they end up sounding pro-Trump. NC gets pretty damn pro-Trump in the comments and sometimes in the moderator comments.

It's really creepy and it makes me think that in a de facto two-horse race, it's very hard to be genuinely against both horses - you tend to drift into backing one or the other. How do people square supporting the campaign for $15, Chelsea Manning and so on with actually arguing that the election is unfairly stacked for Hillary? Do they think Trump is going to pardon Manning? Do they think that a Trump supreme court will do anything except vote against unions on that big case that's pending now?
posted by Frowner at 10:28 AM on October 3, 2016 [15 favorites]


Yeah, sorry about the ads on the inquisitors site,on my locked down desktop, there were no ads. On my mobile, it awful. Sorry. It was the best option of the sites that had the story, assuming we don't want to link to infowars type sites, or brietbart type sites.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 10:30 AM on October 3, 2016


I was just complaining to my wife last night that I don't understand how a foundation doing what Trump's is doing is allowed to continue operations without proper registration and documentation.

I think that's due to the success of his branding. Nobody thought to look into it until recently.

But between the debate behavior and the cease and desist and whatever else it feels like people are seeing.

Remember that vast swaths of the population don't really tune into politics until about now.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:30 AM on October 3, 2016


Wiki leaks announcement, October surprise still on for tomorrow, says Inquisitor.

how many times can they postpone this stupid nothingburger until it sheds its essence of unexpectedness to become the October Scheduled?


It's hard to see how Wikileaks' "October Surprise" could possibly ever compete with the steady broadsides of the various NYT/WaPo/other investigations into Trump's foundations, taxes, porn cameos, et cetera and ad nauseum, anyway. This is probably just Assange doing his "Hello??! Human Fly here!" impression for attention/clicks.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:30 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Nah. They'll rebuild their Donald Free (tm) brand with some type of reality show.

Maybe he can team up with the curmudgeonly old guy from Duck Dynasty for a reality show.

And for their first episode, they go hunting with Dick Cheney
posted by Mayor West at 10:31 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


Does it seem to anybody else that there’s been a tipping point in media coverage over the past week? I feel like there’s been a consensus to go with a “Rubbernecking the Trump Train Wreck” narrative rather than a “Horse Race, Both Sides, Yadda Yadda” narrative.

Is it a question of which types of stories are bringing more page views, or does it have more to do with a new crop of bad Trump stories that came from diligent investigative reporting? (Or am I just seeing what I want to see?)
posted by nicepersonality at 10:32 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wiki leaks announcement, October surprise still on for tomorrow, says Inquisitor.

It's not much of surprise if you announce it, now is it?
posted by octobersurprise


You would know.
posted by chris24 at 10:34 AM on October 3, 2016 [38 favorites]


Was the whole "security threat" thing just...security theater?

According to Roger Stone on the 2 October edition of The Alex Jones Show:
Now we’ve seen disinformation in the last 24 hours saying that Assange has postponed this, he’s moved. I do know this. He does fear for his life and he should. Right now the globalists and the Clintonites are trying to figure out how to kill him.
If you've read enough right-wing nutbar prose, then you know what "globalist" is usually a euphemism for.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:35 AM on October 3, 2016 [11 favorites]


I think the media has realized that the election is close enough (in time) now and the polls are not tight enough to make the horserace story plausible; Trump is going to lose. And they've discovered that just as many people will tune in to watch the bully finally get his comeuppance.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:36 AM on October 3, 2016 [20 favorites]


Hillary is on stage in Toledo right now. She just talked up Lebron's endorsement of her, and is now talking about herself and her father, and her father's small business.
posted by cashman at 10:36 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump suggests Vets who need mental health services aren't "strong"

I mean, for fuck's sake. Can this guy just go away already?
posted by nubs at 10:37 AM on October 3, 2016 [28 favorites]


Here's a livestream from CBS in Toledo.
posted by cashman at 10:37 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Assange is an idiot. He thoroughly destroyed his own brand by publishing altered documents, failing to redact things like social security numbers in the DNC leaks, and leaking with a partisan agenda. He reminds me of some of the jerks I went to 2600 meetings with. They sat around cackling about the OKC bombing, crowing that Reno was finally "getting hers." That was the last 2600 meeting I ever attended.
posted by xyzzy at 10:38 AM on October 3, 2016 [39 favorites]


This is probably just Assange doing his "Hello??! Human Fly here!" impression for attention/clicks.

I know it seems like so long ago, but Assange's metaphorical "Hello??! Human Fly here" can't even compete with the literal Human Fly act from earlier this election season. 2016 everybody...
posted by TwoWordReview at 10:41 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


...calling Hillary and Bill a "dynasty" is the weakest of sauce.

I would probably feel less like this if there wasn't a Bush making a run for the executive branch since I was a freshman in high school and the disastrous results therein. See also jokes about Michelle Obama, Chelsea, Shasha and Malia. Again, I get these are just jokes but they normalize the idea that out of 350,000,000 Americans the is some magic genetic element to these few that makes them somehow obvious choices and that weirds me right the fuck out.

I also get that there are people who are saying this very thing as a whitewash of their misogyny, but, well, I'm this guy.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 10:42 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary: "I believe corporations that benefit from everything America has to offer, should feel some sense of responsibility. Not just to their biggest shareholders, but to their workers, to their customers, to their communities, and to their country - the United States of America."
posted by cashman at 10:43 AM on October 3, 2016 [20 favorites]


"Ongoing legal matter" is how TrumpOrg will now deflect any request for comment on the Foundation, which is probably better for them than various Trumplets trying various contradictory explanations when presented with Fahrenthold's reporting.
posted by holgate at 10:43 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Field report on lawn signs:

My husband and I took our kids up north to NH this weekend to visit his grandfather. We're talking almost-Canada NH; rural and red, littered with ghost towns after the paper mills all folded. We were dreading the drive up.

We were astounded to see that the Hillary/Kaine signs outnumbered the Trump signs at least two to one. There was a smattering of Johnson signs, which we took as a good thing also, but even in the clusters of Trump signs at major intersections some awesome person had diligently added at least one Clinton sign. It was wonderful and heartening and made us feel a hell of a lot more confident about NH at least (we're both certified Massholes now, so we don't get to worry about our own state).

But seriously. TWO TO ONE AT LEAST. We kept seeing more and pointing them out and hollering! Whoooo!
posted by lydhre at 10:44 AM on October 3, 2016 [25 favorites]




Does it seem to anybody else that there’s been a tipping point in media coverage over the past week?

By way of explanation from way, way upthread: this
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:46 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary's got a responsive, engaged crowd in Ohio. She's talking about Wells Fargo right now.
posted by cashman at 10:46 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Does it seem to anybody else that there’s been a tipping point in media coverage over the past week?

The first debate was pretty much Trump's Blinky moment.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 10:47 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hillary: Now while millions of American families, including mine and yours, were working hard and paying taxes, he was paying nothing.

Audience members: "not fair!" "he doesn't care!"
posted by cashman at 10:48 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


DAD IS CAMPAIGNING WITH DAVE MATTHEWS BAND!

I wonder if they'll let him play harmonica?
posted by Talez at 10:49 AM on October 3, 2016 [17 favorites]


Hillary said "yall see the debate last Monday?" in reference to Trump's "smart" remark. Then she tried to continue talking, but had to wait for "Hill-a-ry!" chants to finish before she could continue.
posted by cashman at 10:53 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


Nah. They'll rebuild their Donald Free (tm) brand ...

They are doing it already
Trump Hotels plans to create a new brand for Millennials, and this week it announced its name—Scion.

In a written announcement, the company, run by Ivanka Trump, Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s daughter, said that it chose Scion because it means descendant of a notable family.”
posted by achrise at 10:56 AM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


[Kaine] essential won the election with his skillful defense on this issue, so it's beyond brain-dead to try to attack along the same line again.

So if it were Trump he was going head-to-head with, that would make it a certainty, but he has to go against Pence, so... 75% chance it comes up?
posted by jackbishop at 10:58 AM on October 3, 2016




Republicans are starting to go after Tim Kaine. If the worst they can bring up about him is that he hates the death penalty, well good luck with that.

Support for death penalty lowest in more than four decades
posted by zombieflanders at 10:58 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


Scion certainly means descendant of a notable family, Ivanka. Unfortunately for you, though, it also means "you're still an asshole".
posted by lydhre at 10:59 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hey, KC, I think your Blinky link's hinky.
posted by cortex at 10:59 AM on October 3, 2016 [14 favorites]


Trump Hotels plans to create a new brand for Millennials, and this week it announced its name—Scion.

Part of me is disappointed they didn't go with "Bar[r]on," considering Donald's obvious fascination with the word. (It's not like "Scion" hides it any better, really.)
posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:59 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh god, Trump for sure lost the 916m speculating on Beanie Babies
posted by the marble index at 11:00 AM on October 3, 2016 [32 favorites]


They are doing it already

Trump Hotels plans to create a new brand for Millennials, and this week it announced its name—Scion.

In a written announcement, the company, run by Ivanka Trump, Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s daughter, said that it chose Scion because it means descendant of a notable family.”


Huh. I believe that another company might already hold a similar trademark; be interesting to know if the businesses are different enough to allow them to do that, or if they should expect yet another C&D letter.
posted by Existential Dread at 11:00 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Doesn't Scion mean oddly shaped Toyotas for millenials?
posted by ian1977 at 11:00 AM on October 3, 2016 [61 favorites]


It did until a few months ago.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:02 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


Regarding racism, and the white liberal tendency to ostracize people who say dumb racist shit, even when (especially when) they're our relatives: this Facebook video has been on my mind for several days. I think she raises some really, really, REALLY great points that many people in this thread need to take to heart.

If you can't watch a video, basically, it boils down to this: White folks, those are our people, like it or not. We need to stop abandoning our people when they don't act right, and instead TEACH THEM TO ACT RIGHT. It can be done, and when we say that these people are just irrational, stupid racists, that's just us saying that trying to help those people out of a shitty worldview is not something we're willing to do. But like it or not, they're our garden and we need to tend them.
posted by palomar at 11:02 AM on October 3, 2016 [24 favorites]


Oh god, Trump for sure lost the 916m speculating on Beanie Babies

More than 36% of Trump Tower is Bo Jackson rookie cards.
posted by drezdn at 11:02 AM on October 3, 2016 [14 favorites]


Doesn't Scion mean oddly shaped Toyotas for millenials?

"Translucent Plastic iMac" was already taken.
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:02 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


I hear the Scion IQ is very small.
posted by miyabo at 11:02 AM on October 3, 2016 [20 favorites]


Hillary laying out part of her economic focus:

1) Protecting taxpayers and making sure there is fairness in the system.
a - Passing the Buffet Rule
b- Put in place a new exit tax, and put the money back into helping US workers.

2) Protecting consumers - Make consumer protection a top priority
a - Empower the consumer protection bureau
b - Build on Dodd-Frank reforms and go even further
(stream glitched around here, but she talked about eliminating companies putting fine print in that disallows taking businesses who defraud customers, to court.)
posted by cashman at 11:02 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


A guy like the Don is going to have a diversified portfolio including extensive pog holdings.
posted by cmfletcher at 11:03 AM on October 3, 2016 [21 favorites]


Welp
On February 3, 2016, Toyota announced that it would shut down the Scion brand in August 2016, with selected models to be re-branded to be part of new Toyota vehicles for the 2017 model year.[4]
posted by Existential Dread at 11:04 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Republicans are starting to go after Tim Kaine. If the worst they can bring up about him is that he hates the death penalty, well good luck with that.
Oh by all means guys, run with that. You definitely want to give Tim Kaine an opportunity to talk about his religious convictions and how they sometimes mean that he has to have the courage to support unpopular (but in this case not that unpopular, and getting more popular) political positions. That's definitely a winner for Republicans.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:04 AM on October 3, 2016 [47 favorites]


Huh. I believe that another company might already hold a similar trademark; be interesting to know if the businesses are different enough to allow them to do that, or if they should expect yet another C&D letter.

The Trumps* have already registered the trademark for real estate/hotel usage (as of July 1, 2016). Whether Toyota sues is another question, but the USPTO thinks it's a-ok.

*DTTM Operations LLC, located at Trump Tower, which I'm assuming is the entity that holds their IP.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:04 AM on October 3, 2016


In a written announcement, the company, run by Ivanka Trump, Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s daughter, said that it chose Scion because it means descendant of a notable family.”

Okay I'm not gonna stay at her hotel or anything, but that is god damn clever.

"No, Daddy. I'm not running away from you on this at all," she said with a masterfully straight face. "Yes, it's a re-brand, but it's a re-brand with a respectful callback to you."

And that's exactly the line of bullshit a narcissist like Trump would buy. As long as he can believe it's about him, he's fine with it. Way to play your pops, Ivanka.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:05 AM on October 3, 2016 [14 favorites]


Hillary talking about workers - "I will defend your right to organize".
posted by cashman at 11:05 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hey, KC, I think your Blinky link's hinky.

Bah, too late to fix it now.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:06 AM on October 3, 2016


State Attorney General Orders Trump Foundation to Cease Raising Money in New York

More importantly(?) if they don't "provide the [AG’s] Charities Bureau with the information specified in Section 172 within fifteen (15) days” they "shall be deemed to be a continuing fraud upon the people of the state of New York".

I can't google deeply right now but does that mean they only need to file the proper paperwork to register, or will they need to come up with all the annual filings they should have been doing? AKA what is the "information specified in Section 172"? And what are the implications of being deemed a continuing fraud?
posted by achrise at 11:08 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


I’m not so sure about that branding, though. Most of the tweets I’ve seen from Trump’s millennial followers seem pretty opposed to Scionism.
posted by nicepersonality at 11:09 AM on October 3, 2016 [56 favorites]


I’m not so sure about that branding, though. Most of the tweets I’ve seen from Trump’s millennial followers seem pretty opposed to Scionism.

Goddamn.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:10 AM on October 3, 2016 [13 favorites]




@KatyTurNBC: #BREAKING NY AG sends Cease and Desist to Trump Foundation for operating without proper certification. This seems like a big deal

The failure to certify for solicitation is not itself such a big deal. Trump could just shut down his foundation which isn't really doing much anyway. The big deal is that the NY AG is demanding proper documentation for all of his past years' of filings.

Private foundations are a classic means of tax evasion which is why they are given even more stringent scrutiny than public charities. The scam is to have people direct your taxable income instead into a private foundation tax-free, then use that money for your personal expenses. Most private foundations are funded only by the family's own money. They don't solicit donations. Trump, on the other hand, is engaging in the classic tax evasion strategy.

The state of New York has regulations even more strict than the IRS. If a private foundation like Trump's solicits donations, they require an independent third-party auditor to certify the foundation's tax filings. The NY AG is requiring that the foundation be independently audited for previous years. Trump is going to have a hard time finding an auditor who will be willing to certify that his donations and self-dealing withdrawals are legitimate. An auditor risks losing their license. Think of Arthur Andersen which was put out of business when their shady audits of Enron were exposed. No auditor wants to risk that.

Trump will likely have to close his foundation and pay back taxes and penalties to New York for its fraudulent foundation dealings. Unfortunately none of this will happen until well after the election.
posted by JackFlash at 11:12 AM on October 3, 2016 [55 favorites]


The Trumps* have already registered the trademark for real estate/hotel usage (as of July 1, 2016).

Correction - they've filed the application, which met the minimum requirements necessary, but the process has not yet been finished and the mark has not yet been approved. There will likely be followup questions they have to answer and/or agreements on limitations to the TM (this is normal).

Hughes Hubbard is the law firm representing Trump co in the TM prosecution, if you're keeping track of business to avoid because they agree to work with the Trumps.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:12 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Guardian Article on the Trump Charity Situation (includes the AG letter). 15 days to provide years of back reports. I assume that it will be impossible for the Trump Foundation to compile the data in 15 days; but what happens after that is a question.
posted by humanfont at 11:15 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]




I work for a nonprofit in New York State, and our required yearly audit involves a team of outside accountants camping out in our meeting room for weeks at a time, pouring over individual receipts and time sheets. This for a total org budget of way less than 10 mil/year. I don't think even a totally above-board business with nothing to hide would be able to pull all those years of documentation together in 15 days.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:24 AM on October 3, 2016 [17 favorites]


props to JackFlash as well for posting insightful context and analysis on the nonstop crazy legal stuff in this election. MetaPulitzers all around
posted by theodolite at 11:25 AM on October 3, 2016 [19 favorites]


It's not much of surprise if you announce it, now is it?

What would General McArthur think?
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:25 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


To put the AG/Trump Foundation stuff into a little bit of local context --- I've set up a handful of charities in NYS on a pro bono basis (this is a really common way for tax lawyers to do pro bono work; and Trump probably could have had a tax lawyer essentially on staff at the Foundation for free, if he wanted to). Properly registering with the AG's office and complying with their reporting standards is an extremely basic part of that process. Like Trump's assignment of income issue, this is a NYS Charties 101 thing.

I suspect more and more that Trump has not had/listened to proper legal advice in a really really long time. He has his yes-men who agree to sue Bill Maher over the orangutan joke (how has that lawyer not been sanctioned for filing an obviously frivolous lawsuit!?!?!), and anyone who gives him actual advice is clearly ignored. He thinks everything can be handled by his Very Good Brain, so he doesn't need to know what the laws are or how to even reasonably cover his tracks -- it's not just willfully violating the law, it's not caring whether a law even exists; it's depraved indifference to the rule of law. That lawyers continue to work for him is a disgrace to the profession.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:26 AM on October 3, 2016 [88 favorites]


New Quinnipiac polls:

FLORIDA: Clinton 46 - Trump 41, Johnson 5
NORTH CAROLINA: Clinton 46 - Trump 43, Johnson 7
OHIO: Trump 47 - Clinton 42, Johnson 6
PENNSYLVANIA: Clinton 45 - Trump 41, Johnson 5
posted by zombieflanders at 11:32 AM on October 3, 2016 [10 favorites]


How can 40%+ of the population STILL SUPPORT THIS GUY after the week he's had?!
posted by stolyarova at 11:33 AM on October 3, 2016 [36 favorites]


I suspect more and more that Trump has not had/listened to proper legal advice in a really really long time. He has his yes-men who agree to sue Bill Maher over the orangutan joke (how has that lawyer not been sanctioned for filing an obviously frivolous lawsuit!?!?!), and anyone who gives him actual advice is clearly ignored. He thinks everything can be handled by his Very Good Brain, so he doesn't need to know what the laws are or how to even reasonably cover his tracks -- it's not just willfully violating the law, it's not caring whether a law even exists; it's depraved indifference to the rule of law.

And up till now, it totally worked!

I think this is what Trump means when he says he has 'a winning temperament' (and why he's really not even wrong to say so) - he's figured out that the more brazenly you break the rules and the more loudly you say 'no I didn't!', the more you can get away with. He's a winner all right, but the way he wins just demonstrates how shitty the game is.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:34 AM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


FLORIDA: Clinton 46 - Trump 41, Johnson 5
NORTH CAROLINA: Clinton 46 - Trump 43, Johnson 7
OHIO: Trump 47 - Clinton 42, Johnson 6
PENNSYLVANIA: Clinton 45 - Trump 41, Johnson 5


What the fuck, Ohio?
posted by jammer at 11:35 AM on October 3, 2016 [33 favorites]


How can 40%+ of the population STILL SUPPORT THIS GUY after the week he's had?!

Well, for one thing, this poll was taken from September 27 - October 2. So, after the debate, but largely before Cuba and taxes.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:35 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


How can 40%+ of the population STILL SUPPORT THIS GUY after the week he's had?!

Republicans. Some cultural intimidation. And the combo of "Hillary is a criminal and ought to be in jail" and "they're both terrible," two lines that are dead easy to remember and repeat.
posted by argybarg at 11:36 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


What the fuck, Ohio?

Old white people.
posted by stolyarova at 11:36 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


How can 40%+ of the population STILL SUPPORT THIS GUY after the week he's had?!

Benghazi, 33,000 emails, selling access to the state department for their foundation, team R, fuck liberals, supreme court, anti-abortion, Democrats are sodomites, father knows best.

Take your fucking pick.
posted by Talez at 11:36 AM on October 3, 2016 [10 favorites]


I wonder if it's because he's so brazen that nobody bothered to look too closely into this stuff. I mean, you look at him, and you think, "Anyone totally committed to fraud who be laying low, trying not to draw attention to themselves and their dealings." Because he's spent the last 40 years trying to get, and hang onto, the public's attention--and has succeeded in doing so--it lent cover to the idea that he didn't have anything to hide.

Hiding in plain sight. Crazy like a fox? I don't even know.
posted by suelac at 11:37 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm still trying to get past the hubris of announcing a run for presidency when you KNOW, 100% for sure, that you're the sole holder of a charity without proper paperwork that you're using to launder money past the tax men. The foundation has the same accountant as Trump's son's (much smaller, legally run) charity. He can't plead ignorance. How do you NOT THINK that the SEC or the IRS or SOMEONE WITH THE POWER TO FUCK UP YOUR LIFE is going to take a good long look at the blatant tax fraud you're committing as the nominee for one of the country's two major political parties?

I am bereft of evens. There are no more left to give.
posted by Mayor West at 11:37 AM on October 3, 2016 [25 favorites]


How do you NOT THINK that the SEC or the IRS or SOMEONE WITH THE POWER TO FUCK UP YOUR LIFE is going to take a good long look at the blatant tax fraud you're committing as the nominee for one of the country's two major political parties?

He thinks he's genetically a winner.
posted by argybarg at 11:39 AM on October 3, 2016 [11 favorites]


How do you NOT THINK that the SEC or the IRS or SOMEONE WITH THE POWER TO FUCK UP YOUR LIFE is going to take a good long look at the blatant tax fraud you're committing as the nominee for one of the country's two major political parties

And this should ALL have come out during the primaries! But the GOP really shat the bed on the whole issue of opposition research. They didn't even try. None of this was really secret, and a halfway-decent effort would have revealed at least some of it.

Thank you so much, GOP.
posted by suelac at 11:39 AM on October 3, 2016 [41 favorites]




I mean isn't that like the first law of committing financial shenaniganry? Doesn't matter how you got the money, you make sure you pay the taxes on it, or you're going down like Capone. The IRS has no quarter and craves none.
posted by Mayor West at 11:39 AM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


How do you NOT THINK that the SEC or the IRS or SOMEONE WITH THE POWER TO FUCK UP YOUR LIFE is going to take a good long look at the blatant tax fraud you're committing as the nominee for one of the country's two major political parties?

The goal is to win, so he can purge all those people.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:40 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


I wonder if it's because he's so brazen that nobody bothered to look too closely into this stuff... Hiding in plain sight. Crazy like a fox? I don't even know.

I was talking to Mr. Stolyarov about this the other day, and hypothesized that somebody silver-tongued and better-composed would never have gotten so far because the craziness provides plausible deniability.

A homeless crazy person ranting about wanting to KILL ALL THE XYZ is a lot less terrifying than a calm, well-groomed person looking you dead in the eye and saying, "We need to kill all the XYZ."
posted by stolyarova at 11:40 AM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


And this should ALL have come out during the primaries! But the GOP really shat the bed on the whole issue of opposition research. They didn't even try. None of this was really secret, and a halfway-decent effort would have revealed at least some of it.

Thank you so much, GOP.


For them it was mutually assured destruction and some whacked out game of Prisoner's Dilemma. Whoever dragged out the oppo file was going to feel the full brunt of Donald's oppo file. So someone had to take the bullet. Nobody volunteered.
posted by Talez at 11:41 AM on October 3, 2016 [16 favorites]


achrise: "Trump Hotels plans to create a new brand for Millennials, and this week it announced its name—Scion.
"

You know, like the down-market Toyotas!
posted by boo_radley at 11:41 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


@sahilkapur: Post-debate swing state polls

CO: Clinton +11
VA: Clinton +7
FL: Clinton +4
NV: Clinton +6
MI: Clinton +7
NH: Clinton +7
posted by chris24 at 11:42 AM on October 3, 2016 [23 favorites]


I'm still trying to get past the hubris of announcing a run for presidency when you KNOW, 100% for sure, that you're the sole holder of a charity without proper paperwork that you're using to launder money past the tax men.

I doubt he looked this far ahead when he got into it. I assumed he thought he'd abuse a bunch of Republicans in debate, raise his brand with colorful outrageousness, and end up shuffling out with the crowd and able to reap the rewards. Having actually won the thing he's decided to milk it for all its worth, but the sort of thing that elevates your brand in the closed echo-chamber of a primary only gets people looking at you a lot harder when they're not predisposed to love you.
posted by jackbishop at 11:43 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


New Monmouth poll of likely voters in Colorado

Just as Trump heads to CO for two rallies on the first of a three-day western swing, including a Reid-trolling event on Wednesday in Henderson, NV. (Elizabeth Warren is in Vegas on Tuesday, Tim Kaine's there on Thursday.)
posted by holgate at 11:44 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


What the fuck, Ohio?

There's a reason why so many sitcom characters living in the liberal coastal enclaves come originally from "Ohio".
posted by Talez at 11:44 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


It is my understanding that Trump's charity has been filing the CHAR500 every year. Whoever signed that form would seem to be in a lot of legal trouble.
posted by humanfont at 11:47 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


What the fuck, Ohio?

"All is strange and vague. Are we dead? Or is this Ohio?"
posted by octobersurprise at 11:47 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


It is my understanding that Trump's charity has been filing the CHAR500 every year. Whoever signed that form would seem to be in a lot of legal trouble.

Quick, someone get Meredith's lawyers on the horn!
posted by codacorolla at 11:48 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Here's an interesting update from 538.
posted by annsunny at 11:48 AM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump's appearing in Pueblo today, where Democrats outnumber Republicans 39,869 to 22,642. Pueblo County also has 51% Hispanic voters, a group that's been turned off by talk of the wall. So good luck with that.

The location where he's speaking holds roughly 1600 people. Just watch him insist it's 25K.
posted by mochapickle at 11:49 AM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


About 40 percent of Republican voters were always going to vote for the tribe, no matter how disastrous the candidate. So the numbers don't surprise me.
posted by tavella at 11:50 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Whoever signed that form would seem to be in a lot of legal trouble.

I'll bet a beer it was his CFO Allen Weisselberg. The only "employees" of the foundation are Don, Don Jr., Ivanka, Eric, and Allen.
posted by cmfletcher at 11:51 AM on October 3, 2016


After watching The Choice I decided to check out Hillary Rodham's Wellesley commencement speech from 1969.

Here, she's talking about student protests at Wellesley over various aspects of the educational and admissions structure:

"We arrived at Wellesley and we found, as all of us have found, that there was a gap between expectation and realities. But it wasn't a discouraging gap and it didn't turn us into cynical, bitter old women at the age of 18. It just inspired us to do something about that gap. What we did is often difficult for some people to understand. They ask us quite often: "Why, if you're dissatisfied, do you stay in a place?" Well, if you didn't care a lot about it you wouldn't stay. It's almost as though my mother used to say, "You know I'll always love you but there are times when I certainly won't like you." Our love for this place, this particular place, Wellesley College, coupled with our freedom from the burden of an inauthentic reality allowed us to question basic assumptions underlying our education."

I mean, if that doesn't just sum up HRC's entire public life up till now, I don't know what does.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:51 AM on October 3, 2016 [44 favorites]


That lawyers continue to work for him is a disgrace to the profession.

This is why I was kinda shocked when Morgan Lewis's name was on that letter about the IRS audit. I told one of my lawyer friends not only who does non-profit law, but actually does a lot of work with folks at that firm in that area

and she spent the rest of lunch being like o_O O_o o_O O_o omg i wonder what the head of the practice group there thinks o_O O_o o_O O_o

in between writing geeky tax lawyer fanfic about how you'd actually pull off having the Clinton Foundation shut up shop and turn everything over to the Gates Foundation
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:51 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Didn't Tom Baker defeat the Scions in 1978?
posted by Devonian at 11:51 AM on October 3, 2016 [42 favorites]


I wonder if it's because he's so brazen that nobody bothered to look too closely into this stuff... Hiding in plain sight. Crazy like a fox? I don't even know.

Part of the reason he has been able to skate on this so long is that he failed to register his foundation as soliciting outside donations. If your foundation is funded by your own money, then New York does not require an annual independent audit because there are fewer opportunities for fraud. But when you solicit outside donations, then the potential for fraud is greater and New York requires an independent audit. By failing to properly register all these years, Trump has avoided outside scrutiny of his foundation's financial dealings.
posted by JackFlash at 11:51 AM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]




What the fuck, Ohio?

There's a reason why so many sitcom characters living in the liberal coastal enclaves come originally from "Ohio".


Because those characters are quitters, who elected to flit away to "safe", progressive enclaves instead of putting in the slow, everyday work to enact change in their own home states?

(Seriously, as an Ohioan I get real tired of people from other parts of the country seeing the Midwest as an immutable mass of retrograde thinking, but I get even more tired of the people living here who think the same thing.)
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:53 AM on October 3, 2016 [17 favorites]


Ron Paul on MSNBC says Gary Johnson isn't a true libertarian, will likely vote for Jill Stein instead.

Nothing means anything any more.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:55 AM on October 3, 2016 [20 favorites]


(Seriously, as an Ohioan I get real tired of people from other parts of the country seeing the Midwest as an immutable mass of retrograde thinking, but I get even more tired of the people living here who think the same thing.)

Michigan is a right-to-work state now. We may not be an immutable mass, but there's a huge reserve of retrograde thinking that's being tapped pretty hard in these parts.
posted by Etrigan at 11:56 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yay Colorado!

I've seen some Trump lawn signs and bumper stickers in Colorado Springs, but nowhere near the number I saw for Romney, McCain, or Bush. Granted, I've seen no Hillary signage whatsoever, but at least Trump enthusiasm seems somewhat tempered even in this conservative stronghold.
posted by bibliowench at 11:57 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Whoever signed that form would seem to be in a lot of legal trouble.

I'll bet a beer it was his CFO Allen Weisselberg. The only "employees" of the foundation are Don, Don Jr., Ivanka, Eric, and Allen.


And by being CFO, he likely removed any chance he had to be like "well, the client gave us false information." Usually, accountants/lawyers can defend themselves in this way (not sure if that applies when your client is a known pathological liar...). But since he's listed as the CFO, he has all kinds of additional duties and obligations and assumed knowledge about the facts. Here's [pdf] a good rundown of obligations of being on a charity board in NYS from AG Schneiderman.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:57 AM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hey, remember that time the President of the United States nominated a Supreme Court justice and the Senate blew it off for eight months and counting because they think the president's term only lasts three years or something?
posted by kirkaracha at 11:58 AM on October 3, 2016 [63 favorites]


There are more astronauts from Ohio than any other state. What is it about that place that makes someone want to leave the planet?

I kid, we love you guys over here in PA
posted by cmfletcher at 11:59 AM on October 3, 2016 [27 favorites]


Because those characters are quitters, who elected to flit away to "safe", progressive enclaves instead of putting in the slow, everyday work to enact change in their own home states?

I can't speak to the TV-show version of things, but when I was living & working in DC, a lot of the people I knew there had come from Ohio. I sympathize with the frustration, but it's a real migration.
posted by psoas at 11:59 AM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump’s organization did business with Iranian bank later linked to terrorism
Donald Trump’s real estate organization rented New York office space from 1998 to 2003 to an Iranian bank that U.S. authorities have linked to terrorist groups and Iran’s nuclear program.

Trump inherited Bank Melli, one of Iran’s largest state-controlled banks, as a tenant when he purchased the General Motors Building on Fifth Avenue in Manhattan, according to public records reviewed by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists and the Center for Public Integrity. The Trump Organization kept the bank on as a tenant for four more years after the U.S. Treasury Department designated Bank Melli in 1999 as being controlled by the Iranian government.

U.S. officials later alleged that Bank Melli had been used to obtain sensitive materials for Iran’s nuclear program. U.S. authorities also alleged that the bank had been used between 2002 and 2006 to funnel money to a unit of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard that has sponsored terrorist attacks — a period that overlapped with the time the bank rented office space from Trump.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 12:00 PM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm not from Ohio but I left my hometown because feeling suicidal all the time as an outcast from everyone who surrounded me was a little tedious.

People leaving places isn't always a frivolous decision.
posted by winna at 12:01 PM on October 3, 2016 [50 favorites]


That 538 update from further up in the thread says that Hillary only got a 1-2 point bounce in the polls, but looking at all the other polls in the thread, she seems to have gotten a bigger bounce. Was that article written before Quinnipowac and Monmouth were released, or am I missing something?
posted by pxe2000 at 12:01 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Re: Michigan, blame Hillsdale College, the Mackinac Center, and the DeVos family.

I went to Hillsdale College (uurghrughghghghhhh except I met Mr. Stolyarov there and we bonded over how regressive, oppressive and generally awful the culture of Christian conservatism on campus was) so I take their particular brand of politics preeettty personally.
posted by stolyarova at 12:03 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's good to see so many pigeons coming home to roost in the guano-streaked dovecots on the roof of Trump Tower, but...

#deargodistherereallyanothermonthofthis
posted by Devonian at 12:03 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hillary Clinton, on message in Toledo: “How anyone can lose a dollar let alone a billion dollars in the casino industry is beyond me [...] What kind of genius loses a billion dollars in a single year? This is Trump to a T.”

The brilliant think about that messaging is that it needles Trump by undercutting his high-flying businessman image. Wouldn't it be nice if he blurted out "It's all just a massive shell game to hide taxable income...smart!" or something like that?
posted by Gelatin at 12:04 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Because those characters are quitters, who elected to flit away to "safe", progressive enclaves instead of putting in the slow, everyday work to enact change in their own home states?

For many people the safe in that sentence doesn't have quotation marks. I'm all for people putting down roots and putting in the hard work to change these deep red pockets. But I'm not going to tell someone they have to be exposed to open racism, sexism, transphobia, xenophobia, etc -- in person-to-person interactions and in their interaction with the government --- when they have a chance to (somewhat) escape all of that. Some of these areas are literally unsafe for some of our fellow denizens.
posted by melissasaurus at 12:04 PM on October 3, 2016 [33 favorites]


inb4 "538 need the horserace for clicks" people come around
posted by Tevin at 12:04 PM on October 3, 2016


If it helps, Ohioans, I think about leaving Texas at least once a month.
posted by emjaybee at 12:05 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]




That 538 update from further up in the thread says that Hillary only got a 1-2 point bounce in the polls

It says it's plausible she only got a 1-2 point bounce but it could be bigger because we don't have enough good data yet.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 12:05 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


> The Times has obtained Donald Trump's 1995 tax records. They suggest he could have paid no federal income tax for 18 years.

> My father would not support this kind of campaign, if this is what the Republican Party wants leave us Reagans out. Nancy would vote for HRC — Michael Reagan

> Wiki leaks announcement, October surprise still on for tomorrow, says Inquisitor.


I just want to say, OctoberSurprise, this is your time to shine!
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:08 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ron Paul on MSNBC says Gary Johnson isn't a true libertarian, will likely vote for Jill Stein instead.

"I'm getting page doesn't exist" on that one. Bad link, or did Jessica Taylor take it down?
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 12:08 PM on October 3, 2016


they're our garden and we need to tend them.

where do i order a truckload of Roundup™?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 12:08 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


For many people the safe in that sentence doesn't have quotation marks.

Literally just today, I had a (trans, queer) friend tell me that she is moving back out of our home state again because her grad program down there is full of anti-trans and anti-lgbt rhetoric, and also the sheriff of the county she lives in has stated that there should be a public list of all trans people in schools, comparing them to head lice.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:09 PM on October 3, 2016 [22 favorites]




My best friend grew up in Ohio, spent several years in the PacNW liberal bubble with me, met her husband here, had kids here, and moved back to Ohio about 20 months ago -- the cost of living out here is just too high, and her husband couldn't find work. Now they're homeowners, he's got a terrific job he really enjoys and that has a future... and my girl is struggling to find her footing in a region that has changed dramatically in some ways, and not at all in others. One way that nothing has changed, she tells me, is the undercurrent of racism. When they were buying their house they were warned away from so many areas because they're "dangerous"... but they're actually safer than the neighborhood she left behind in Seattle. What makes them dangerous is the presence of people of color. The Nepalese kids that live next door to her, sweet awesome kids, are shunned by one family on the block. Every other kid is allowed to play at this family's house, but the Nepalese kids don't even bother trying anymore because the dad of the family won't let them on his property. He's got some spurious reason that he thinks proves he's not a racist, but it's pretty obviously bullshit. And my girl, she loves her house and she loves that her kids can run around and play outside and she loves that her husband has fulfilling work, she loves the land and the scenery and it's her childhood home so there's a lot of attachment to the place, but the negatives are still there. The things that made her want to flee in the first place are still there. And she's trying to fight it all in any way she can, trying to find ways to solve the problems around her, but there are days when she really, really hates it.

So I can sympathize with not wanting your region to be trashed by perceived outsiders, but I also have a huge amount of sympathy for the people who live in those areas and can't bear what they see and struggle to find ways to make a difference in the face of what often seems like insurmountable odds.
posted by palomar at 12:10 PM on October 3, 2016 [32 favorites]


"I'm getting page doesn't exist" on that one. Bad link, or did Jessica Taylor take it down?

She took it down because it was inaccurate.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:11 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


For them it was mutually assured destruction and some whacked out game of Prisoner's Dilemma. Whoever dragged out the oppo file was going to feel the full brunt of Donald's oppo file. So someone had to take the bullet. Nobody volunteered.

Then after Trump was the nominee, anyone who stabbed him in the back like that would kiss off any future chance for running on the Republican ticket. Even Cruz took back his convention non-endorsement, though as I said, I bet he wishes he'd waited until after the debate.
posted by Gelatin at 12:11 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Looks like she took it down. I found a video of it on YouTube and Ron Paul basically says that there's no "liberty candidate" this time around, but that Stein is best on foreign policy and progressives should vote for her. Not a Stein endorsement.
posted by stolyarova at 12:12 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


What would General McArthur think?

Douglas MacArthur: I shall return.

Donald Trump: Maybe I'll return. Maybe I won't. We'll have to see how they treat me -- the Philippines are rigged, it's a rigged system folks. Nothing you can do. Nothing you can do.
posted by peeedro at 12:12 PM on October 3, 2016 [11 favorites]


inb4 "538 need the horserace for clicks" people come around

Considering the stated likelihoods of the two apocalyptic scenarios mentioned in the linked 538 article are 0.15% and 0.4% respectively, those people aren't precisely wrong.
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:14 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


I kid, we love you guys over here in PA

I love Ohio, too. I love that there's a Russia, Ohio. I love how Wapakoneta gets called "Wapak" because it's shorter. I love Devo and Rocket From The Tombs and Chrissie Hynde. And I love that "High in the middle and round on both ends" thing.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:14 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]






The Atlantic: The Many Scandals of Donald Trump: A Cheat Sheet

Could be an older article reedited with updated information.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:16 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


The 538 update is interesting for the numbers Johnson is getting, not the clickbait of a close race. It also doesn't reflect the numbers after the NYT released the info on Trumps tax returns, so that might affect numbers too.
posted by annsunny at 12:17 PM on October 3, 2016


What would General McArthur think?

"Do whatever you want; I'm super dead."
posted by ocherdraco at 12:19 PM on October 3, 2016 [98 favorites]


...and full of protein?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:20 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


For many people the safe in that sentence doesn't have quotation marks.

This conversational thread really makes me wish I could put the phrase "metafilter's own" and the name "Mark Mothersbaugh" together. Because, yeah, about half of Devo's stuff is a fun house mirror held up to places like Ohio. Outside of a couple very blue enclaves, it's not nearly so much fun, and he'd probably be as good as anyone to attest to that.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:21 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Michael Chertoff, lead Republican counsel on the Senate Whitewater Committee, former head of the Justice Department’s criminal division, former U.S. Court of Appeals justice, and second head of Homeland Security, endorses Clinton.

We're through the looking glass here, people.

Should we take that endorsement as a tacit admission that Whitewater really was a partisan fishing expedition that wound up with bupkus?
posted by Gelatin at 12:21 PM on October 3, 2016 [21 favorites]


Mod note: One deleted. If you're tired of reading this thread go ahead and do something else, no need to announce it in here.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:23 PM on October 3, 2016 [29 favorites]


"I know. It's all wrong. By rights we shouldn't even be here. But we are. It's like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger, they were. And sometimes you didn't want to know the end. Because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it's only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you. That meant something, even if you were too small to understand why. But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand. I know now. Folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back, only they didn't. They kept going. Because they were holding on to something."

"What are we holding onto, Sam?"

"That there's some good in this world, Mr. Frodo... and it's worth fighting for. "
posted by JakeEXTREME at 12:25 PM on October 3, 2016 [18 favorites]


I'm not from Ohio but I left my hometown because feeling suicidal all the time as an outcast from everyone who surrounded me was a little tedious. People leaving places isn't always a frivolous decision.

...

For many people the safe in that sentence doesn't have quotation marks. I'm all for people putting down roots and putting in the hard work to change these deep red pockets. But I'm not going to tell someone they have to be exposed to open racism, sexism, transphobia, xenophobia, etc -- in person-to-person interactions and in their interaction with the government --- when they have a chance to (somewhat) escape all of that. Some of these areas are literally unsafe for some of our fellow denizens.

Looking back at my comment, I can see how it would come off as a bit insensitive towards people who moved for very good and very serious reasons (which I do not begrudge in the least), and I apologize for not quite seeing past my own privilege (or that of certain TV characters) in terms of "fighting the good fight". But on the whole I think Ohio is within striking distance of becoming a semi-progressive oasis in the middle of a dark red part of the country. We went blue in the last two Presidential elections, and I think we could easily do it again given sufficient will on the part of the progressive electorate.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:25 PM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pour one for our homie Assange, who just doesn't matter anymore :(

Maybe it's time to go to trial for the crimes of which you've been accused, Julian. That embassy must be feeling mighty small, and they're going to kick you out eventually.
posted by Yowser at 12:26 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


"I know. It's all wrong. By rights we shouldn't even be here. But we are. It's like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger, they were. And sometimes you didn't want to know the end. Because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it's only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you. That meant something, even if you were too small to understand why. But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand. I know now. Folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back, only they didn't. They kept going. Because they were holding on to something."

That's a comforting thought if you're a protagonist protected by plot armor. Meanwhile the people who will see their meagre insurance stripped from them and their minimum wage stagnated (at best, possibly withdrawn) won't have that luxury. There's a lot of people who won't make it through the passing of a darkness.
posted by Talez at 12:26 PM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kurt Eichenwald is definitely emptying out his Trump File, one folder at a time.

And as has been widely reported, Trump's choice of ready-mix concrete over steel-frame construction was a choice to work with the mob.
posted by holgate at 12:27 PM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


says Inquisitor.

Inquisitr (the spelling they use) is a clickbait site, and a bottom-feeder among clickbait sites in general. And in related news, October 4, 2016 is Wikileaks' 10th anniversary so Assange is probably looking to draw extra attention any way he can.
posted by fuse theorem at 12:27 PM on October 3, 2016


From that Newsweek article linked above, it's unclear whether Trump knowingly chose Chinese building materials... but it does seem clear he could have chosen American and didn't. Man I hope HRC's team is all over the news from this week!

"Trump has not committed any crimes by purchasing his steel and aluminum from China, nor did he engage in wrongdoing by using Chinese textile factories to make his clothing lines. But, given the only beneficiaries of his decisions to go with cheaper Chinese metals for his construction project are Trump and his family, he is not someone who ever attempted to lead by example by only buying products made in America. He filled his bank accounts with millions of dollars that could have gone to blue-collar workers, many of whom now believe he is the man who will bring back the jobs that he secretly helped to destroy."
posted by clever sheep at 12:28 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


his steel and aluminum from Chinese manufacturers rather than United States corporations based in states like Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin.

I know that's where steel gets made but that's a hell of a list of states to piss off electorally (which is of course why the article called them out I guess).
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:28 PM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


How do you NOT THINK that the SEC or the IRS or SOMEONE WITH THE POWER TO FUCK UP YOUR LIFE is going to take a good long look at the blatant tax fraud you're committing as the nominee for one of the country's two major political parties?

Maybe he assumed that by the time any investigation got rolling, he'd be president, and could simply pardon himself.

Though that's probably giving him too much credit for having a couple functioning neurons.
posted by happyroach at 12:29 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hey, is that blood in the water?
posted by kirkaracha at 12:29 PM on October 3, 2016 [21 favorites]



Kurt Eichenwald is definitely emptying out his Trump File, one folder at a time.


So we could be in for a long, steadily moving October Surprise.
posted by Jalliah at 12:29 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


So we could be in for a long, steadily moving October Surprise.

More like an October Yeahwealwaysfiguredbutiguessitsnicetohaveconfirmation.
posted by Etrigan at 12:32 PM on October 3, 2016 [16 favorites]


Talez, I guess I should mention that I think the darkness is this election and the fight will take place on November 8th, not after. I hope.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 12:32 PM on October 3, 2016


> I'm all for people putting down roots and putting in the hard work to change these deep red pockets. But I'm not going to tell someone they have to be exposed to open racism, sexism, transphobia, xenophobia, etc -- in person-to-person interactions and in their interaction with the government --- when they have a chance to (somewhat) escape all of that. Some of these areas are literally unsafe for some of our fellow denizens.

This is why for those of us who can stay, because of our privileged class / gender / sexual identity / race, should do our best to help at least create a beach head. We can't replace the need for having diverse voices in the conversation, but we can help amplify and support that diversity.
posted by mrzarquon at 12:32 PM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


Kurt Eichenwald is definitely emptying out his Trump File, one folder at a time.

And as has been widely reported, Trump's choice of ready-mix concrete over steel-frame construction was a choice to work with the mob.


One shudders to think what they have on him.
posted by Gelatin at 12:34 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


So Lebron and his family are supporting Hillary Clinton, and while he won't be at today's rally, he's trying to meet up with Hillary and the campaign in the future. Hillary actually said today at her rally that she's proud to have him endorse her and "join the campaign" and I waited because I wasn't sure if that meant he was actually going to participate in an event or a rally, but it looks like he is:
"I know she's actually in my hometown today, and because we have two practices today I won't be able to attend that, but we've been in communication about doing something and we'll figure it out," James said.
I love the he wrote the letter, and Lebron is a deity in North Ohio right now, and really respected statewide. When his team does exhibitions in other parts of the state, the crowd is starstruck. I love that he ended his written remarks with talk about registering people and getting out the vote.

A lot of people probably arent aware because they don't follow sports or the nba, but Lebron is fresh off leading his team from being down in the nba finals 3 games to 1 game, in a 7-game series (4 games wins it all). No nba team had ever come back from that to win, but Lebron led his team back from that seemingly insurmountable deficit, personally helping to seal the win with huge plays at the end of game 7. So what I'm saying is, the guy that's famous right now for helping win a huge victory for his side in Ohio, just signed on to help.
posted by cashman at 12:35 PM on October 3, 2016 [49 favorites]


October "Shocked -- Shocked!"
posted by tonycpsu at 12:35 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hey so I just moved to Ohio from Seattle and boy o, let me tell you, racism is alive and well in both places, just expressed differently. Let's please not pretend like blue counties are magically non-racist counties, please?
posted by Tevin at 12:35 PM on October 3, 2016 [43 favorites]


Maybe he assumed that by the time any investigation got rolling, he'd be president, and could simply pardon himself.

At this point, one begins to wonder if Trump ran for president in a long shot attempt to be able to pardon himself for all the crimes he has committed.
posted by drezdn at 12:35 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


That's a comforting thought if you're a protagonist protected by plot armor.

No it isn't, unless you're claiming Sam = Deadpool.
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:40 PM on October 3, 2016


one begins to wonder if Trump ran for president in a long shot attempt to be able to pardon himself for all the crimes he has committed.

No, because he would have to sense and acknowledge that he had committed crimes, and allow the possibility that any authority could have power over him. Genetic winners such as himself would never allow such weak thoughts into their head.
posted by argybarg at 12:41 PM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hillary store update: Ordered the shot glasses, the Woman Card, the button set with the pics of Hillary throughout her public life, and a logo t-shirt on 9/15. They were delivered on Friday 9/30 but I didn't know until I picked up my mail today. Just FYI, if you're waiting on an old order or wondering what's shipping fastest.
posted by palomar at 12:42 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Ohio conversation has been interesting, but I always find myself wondering -- what, if anything, can be done to flip (or make more competitive) that long red strip of states down the center of the country starting in North Dakota and ending in Texas? If Texas were to somehow 'turn blue' would that somehow tip the balance to encourage a more progressive outlook down the center of the country? (Looks like the last time Kansas, Nebraska, and Oklahoma went Dem was 1964.) What is the factor that makes those states so extremely conservative?
posted by anastasiav at 12:43 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


For the Southern part of that strip my guess is "racism."
posted by monospace at 12:46 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump's a crook? No October Surprise to me, but I've related before that the first (and only) person I've known who has met Dishonest Donald was a former independent contractor who was put out of business because Trump cheated him out of tens of thousands of dollars. (Every time I see a report of somebody that happened to, I check to see if it as my guy, and, nope, just another victim)

I have believed from day one of Trump's campaign that his motivations for running are (1) to make BIG money for himself (he's 70 and has failed in his life-long ambition to become the richest man in the world... 'running the American economy [into the ground]' is the one way he can succeed and (2) to self-pardon himself for all the hundreds of criminal acts he's committed along the way. I don't consider him a threat to bring Fascism to America as much as I consider him a threat to make America a Trump Keptocracy.

I have said back when he was 'just' a TV star that he belonged in a cell with Bernie Madoff, and the only reasons he isn't are (1) he hasn't cheated anyone with more influence than himself and (2) he isn't Jewish (a major factor on why Madoff is the only figure from the late '00s meltdown in jail... but I digress). So where are the TRUMP FOR PRISON signs? This isn't "lowering yourself to their level"... this is what we should have been saying all along.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:47 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


Isn't minority voter turnout a better guess than racism?
posted by zutalors! at 12:47 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


The Ohio conversation has been interesting, but I always find myself wondering -- what, if anything, can be done to flip (or make more competitive) that long red strip of states down the center of the country starting in North Dakota and ending in Texas?

Maybe this is selection bias on my part in terms of what pops up on my radar, but I think Democrats need to get better about working with Native American tribes and communities in these areas. Particularly on the environment (e.g., NoDAPL and fracking).
posted by melissasaurus at 12:47 PM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump's choice of ready-mix concrete over steel-frame construction was a choice to work with the mob.

Also, I bet he didn't stiff them on their bills.
posted by Gelatin at 12:48 PM on October 3, 2016 [32 favorites]


what, if anything, can be done to flip (or make more competitive) that long red strip of states down the center of the country starting in North Dakota and ending in Texas?

I suspect the biggest factor in those states is Evangelical Christianity. It's going to be hard to turn Evangelicals into Democrats while abortion and homosexuality are still such hot-button issues. If the Dems went anti-abortion it would be a boon to the greens and libertarians alike, and likely kill the party (not to mention being the morally wrong choice). But if they stay in favor of Roe v Wade they'll never win the Evangelicals.
posted by dis_integration at 12:49 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


I know Ohio is a swing state, and it's basically a few highly populated urban areas that go blue surrounded by a sea of red, but I really don't understand how a state that voted for Obama twice is so highly polling toward Trump, against the trend of practically every other swing state. Is there an explanation for that? Are the polls off, have the demographics changed that much in the past four years, or what?
posted by Roommate at 12:50 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


the first (and only) person I've known who has met Dishonest Donald was a former independent contractor who was put out of business because Trump cheated him out of tens of thousands of dollars. (Every time I see a report of somebody that happened to, I check to see if it as my guy, and, nope, just another victim)

That should be Clinton's next ad.
posted by Gelatin at 12:53 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


The opposition to abortion is a latecomer to Southern politics. In Texas we have the one-two punch of a long history of racism and heavy dependency on the oil industry to fuel our conservatism.
posted by emjaybee at 12:55 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pour one for our homie Assange, who just doesn't matter anymore :(

I'm typically in favor of some form of Wikileaks in the form of forced transparency if the government won't engage in it voluntarily. I understand that Russia is probably supplying Wikileaks with whatever they're going to drop. I still feel really icky feeling slightly annoyed at Wikileaks. I don't think they're in the tank for Trump. I think they're in the tank for anti-establishmentism.

In a practical sense, I want there to be transparency in government but I'd really prefer some form of liberalism to stick around so that we still have a functioning government to make more transparent. But for them to hold off on shitting on the liberal side of politics, which is the side they're given information about, is to ask them to be partisan and I don't think that's really a road we want to go down with an organization like Wikileaks. It's like, either way I'm throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

It's a clusterfuck of a moral quagmire for someone like me that supports the premise of Wikileaks, want it to be non-partisan and at the same time, wish they didn't have so much dirt only on the liberal side that they're effectively handing support to an authoritarian crypto-fascist. Like, I can have only two out of three, you know? All I can do is wish that liberal politicians act like upstanding professionals at all times and avoid even the slightest hint of impropriety. But that's not really something I can actually control so, well, I just keep trying to get H elected and hope for the best.
posted by Talez at 12:56 PM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Ohio is doubly strange because their governor is... Kasich, who is going out of his way to wash his hands of Trump's stain and give him as little support as possible.

I suspect tainted Skyline Chili. (As if there is any UNTAINTED Skyline Chili.)
posted by delfin at 12:57 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


I know Ohio is a swing state, and it's basically a few highly populated urban areas that go blue surrounded by a sea of red, but I really don't understand how a state that voted for Obama twice is so highly polling toward Trump, against the trend of practically every other swing state. Is there an explanation for that?

Sen. Rob Portman's reverse coattails.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:59 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]



Today on the internet I learned that Trump supporters are really, really, really mad that the media is reporting so much on Trump. At least a couple of times a week I take a boo at comments and other sites to get a general sense of what`s up in that department and today was the worst I`ve seen so far.

Not happy campers at all.

Trump is still winning though.
posted by Jalliah at 1:00 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


what, if anything, can be done to flip (or make more competitive) that long red strip of states down the center of the country starting in North Dakota and ending in Texas?

Well, older Republicans can die.
Since the average Republican is significantly older than the average Democrat, far more Republicans than Democrats have died since the 2012 elections. To make matters worse, the GOP is attracting fewer first-time voters. Unless the party is able to make inroads with new voters, or discover a fountain of youth, the GOP’s slow demographic slide will continue election to election.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:00 PM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


[FADE IN on black and white photos of Trump living the high life]

VO: the first (and only) person I've known who has met Dishonest Donald was a former independent
contractor

[As VO continues, fade in superimposed black and white photos of cooks, carpenters, construction workers]

VO: ...who was put out of business because Trump cheated him out of tens of thousands of dollars.

[As VO continues, fade in on newspaper headlines of Trump casino and other bankruptcies, and lawsuits over Trump's failure to pay bills, and Trump Universiry ]

VO: Every time I see a report of somebody that happened to, I check to see if it as my guy, and, nope, just another victim.

[Fade in on stock photo of small business with a big CLOSED sign in the window]

[Fade out; fade in on color shot of Hillary Clinton looking directly at the camera]

CLINTON: I'm Hillary Clinton, and I approve this message because America deserves someone who believes in paying their bills.

[FADE TO BLACK]
posted by Gelatin at 1:02 PM on October 3, 2016 [21 favorites]


But if they stay in favor of Roe v Wade they'll never win the Evangelicals.

Ain't that the sad truth. I know a couple of evangelicals for whom Hillary is a non-starter because of her pro-choice stance. I've actually stepped onto the third rail with them for a discussion, arguing that abortion rates are reduced when you offer programs like free birth control and sex education, but for them, one abortion is too many, and anybody who allows even that one abortion is of the devil.

It's aggravating and I don't see the conversation going anywhere but we still have to have those conversations sometimes if we're going to see the needle budge eventually.
posted by vverse23 at 1:03 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think they're in the tank for anti-establishmentism.

Also, antisemitism. Wikileaks has some deep cultural issues and could stand to clean house, starting with Assange. Or perhaps Wikileaks should go away, and a new transparency org take its place.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:04 PM on October 3, 2016 [14 favorites]


There's nothing magical about the Wikileaks brand and there's a very real taint to it from a pretty awful human being as the figurehead. We can still have leaks when the least transparent executive branch in recent memory won't pony up on their own. We managed to get Snowden's leak without their involvement, and the Intercept is an ongoing (flawed) concern that's still out there to get leaks. The Grey Lady showed she was still capable of publishing a leak that might be legally problematic with this Trump return revelation.

I'd say that if anything, Wikileaks is showing that a leak publishing operation is just as capable of becoming an establishment operation, in the sense of preserving a person and an image over a mission, as any traditional publication is. Wishing them a fond sail off into the irrelevant sunset isn't at all incompatible with being open to forced transparency when necessary.
posted by phearlez at 1:05 PM on October 3, 2016 [22 favorites]


How do we get from Trump calling PTSD survivors weak to Flynn disavowing that suggestion while saying what his boss really meant? I mean, we've done this before, but it's all the media's fault for quoting Trump in context? Apparently, words might not matter in Trumplandia, but they still matter to many of us outside of it.
posted by Silverstone at 1:07 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Sweden is the Saudi Arabia of feminism" - Julian Assange
posted by theodolite at 1:08 PM on October 3, 2016


Also, I bet he didn't stiff [The Mafia] on their bills.

Then again, one might also speculate that the Donald might have gotten a nice break on certain services rendered, in exchange for allowing his ready-mix contractors to get rid of a few inconvenient "loose ends" while pouring the foundations for Trump Tower, et al.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:09 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


Since the average Republican is significantly older than the average Democrat ...

WSJ: Among Seniors, Clinton Grows More Appealing
“It’s disconcerting, because seniors have been the core of our base in recent years,” Republican pollster Ed Goeas said, adding that private polling shows similar trends.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:09 PM on October 3, 2016 [22 favorites]


Regarding a blue Texas, there are quite a few articles floating around positing what a "purple" Texas looks like. It basically looks a lot like the end of the GOP as a national party.
posted by craven_morhead at 1:11 PM on October 3, 2016 [13 favorites]


Ahead of Tuesday's debate, here's how Tim Kaine, Mike Pence match up (USA Today, October 2, 2016) -- soft details, for the most part - neither are highly notable, until you get to
Major issue recently known for: In the Senate, Kaine has repeatedly pushed for a resolution authorizing use of military force against the Islamic State. He’s argued that current actions go beyond what Congress has approved. Pence got national attention in 2015 for signing, and then agreeing to amend, “religious freedom” legislation that critics said would allow businesses to deny services to gays and lesbians.

Criticisms of each other: Kaine has called Pence’s record on LGBT issues “anti-civil rights.” Pence has said he’s cut taxes in Indiana while Kaine pushed to raise them in Virginia.
It'll be interesting to hear what two self-described dull/ b-listers say to each-other.

More on Kaine: How Tim Kaine Is Preparing for Tuesday's Vice Presidential Debate (ABC News, Oct 3, 2016)
He seems to know that too. As he left Mass on Sunday in Richmond, Virginia, Hillary Clinton's running mate told reporters that on Tuesday he just has to "be myself."

"I'm calm," Kaine said of his upcoming debate with GOP vice presidential nominee Mike Pence. "Things work out the way they are supposed to."

But behind the calm is intense preparation.

Longtime Democratic campaign aide Mo Elleithee has informally given Kaine thoughts and advice as he prepares for this week's debate at Longwood University in Farmville, Virginia. Elleithee worked closely with Kaine during his Senate and gubernatorial campaigns.

Elleithee said Kaine usually begins his debate prep by working alone, reading and absorbing information, before he engages in mock debates. He said Kaine thinks about the debate format and the best way to use that format to make his arguments.
...
Kaine told his traveling press corps that part of his prep involved connecting Pence's record to Trump's.

"It's not knowing another fact, but it is about thinking hard about the material, thinking hard about Pence's record and also what Pence's record would say about the guy who chose him, since it really is more about Donald Trump than it is about Gov. Pence," Kaine told reporters Sept. 22.
And on Pence: How Mike Pence Is Preparing for Tuesday's Vice Presidential Debate (ABC News, Oct 3, 2016)
"I am doing a little preparation for it. And a little bit more traditional than my running mate," Pence told radio talk show host Hugh Hewitt last week.
...
According to a Pence aide, Pence has been preparing for the debate "since the night he received the call from Mr. Trump."

"The team has developed a plan and they are executing that plan," said the aide.
...
He also did a number of mock debates, with Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker standing in for Kaine, according to a Pence aide. Pence was in Wisconsin for two days last week and met with Walker then.

Walker later tweeted it had been a "honor" to help Pence "prepare for a thoughtful debate on the issues." Pence responded by tweeting Walker is “a true friend” and “great leader.”
...
The Pence team has not commented on how involved the Trump team was (though Pence was in New York three times last week).

Pence had no public events in Indiana this weekend. An aide said he was spending time with family and "continuing informal debate prep."
So effin' weird -- it's like Donald and Mike are running parallel campaigns that happen to be headed the same direction. I don't see a Donald actually coordinating with Mike if they actually win, instead they continue to operate separately, with Mike trying to keep his record as clean as possible by being away from Donald as much as possible.

And it's interesting that there are named sources for Kaine and quotes from his own public appearances, versus "an aide" talking for Pence.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:12 PM on October 3, 2016 [11 favorites]


WaPo Years before ‘Aleppo moment,’ Gary Johnson showed little interest in details of governing
Over the next eight years, New Mexico lawmakers would struggle to work with a governor who paid little attention to details. Those who worked closely with Johnson, then a Republican elected as a political novice vowing to shake up the established order, recall a chief executive who would speed through meetings and often preferred to discuss his fitness routine than focus on the minutiae of policymaking.

Today people here are not surprised that Johnson’s lack of interest in the fine points of governing has led to some high-profile stumbles in his Libertarian candidacy for president, such as his inability to name his favorite foreign leader or when a question about the war-ravaged city at the center of the Syrian refugee crisis prompted him to ask, “What is Aleppo?”
If you don't know much about him and his governorship this is a pretty interesting read. For example:
An examination of eight years of legislation showed that Johnson vetoed a bill to create specialized license plates because he thought it was too costly. He vetoed the formation of an African American affairs committee and a task force examining how to get equal pay for women because he thought they were a waste of time and money.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:13 PM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


Then again, one might also speculate that the Donald might have gotten a nice break on certain services rendered

Reporters should ask about that possibility, because it "raises questions" and "casts shadows" on Trump's career. It's also a more likely productive endeavor than their discovering Clinton's State Department basically didn't grant special favors to Clinton Foundation donors.
posted by Gelatin at 1:13 PM on October 3, 2016


“It’s disconcerting, because seniors have been the core of our base in recent years,” Republican pollster Ed Goeas said, adding that private polling shows similar trends.

Eldsters just aren't that into dank memes?
posted by Artw at 1:17 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


what, if anything, can be done to flip (or make more competitive) that long red strip of states down the center of the country starting in North Dakota and ending in Texas?

I think trying to pin this on any one thing you can point to as an immediate cause, is a bit of a fools errand but the overarching cause, I think, is fear. Fear of minorities, fear of the gays, fear they're going to take away your guns...but in a lot of places what it goes back to is fear of failure. The past 40 years have not been kind to the midwest, see every article that used the term "rust belt" plus the wholesale gutting of family farms back in the day. So every little mill town and grain elevatorville USA took a huge hit. Meanwhile, the urban areas which tended to be more economically diverse tended to fare better in the wealth transfer of the past few decades. That set up a narrative that certain forces played like a harp.

I mean look at the whole Jade Helm thing. Insanity. But it got actual news cycles on actual news TV and actual politicians were talking about it.

Assuage that fear and those states are easy to flip.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 1:22 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Sweden is the Saudi Arabia of feminism" - Julian Assange

At first I was thinking this was a parallel to "China is the Saudi Arabia of rare earth elements" and that it meant Sweden had the largest proven reserves of feminism on the planet, and might be a pivotal member of an international cartel regulating the price of a barrel of feminism in world markets.
posted by XMLicious at 1:23 PM on October 3, 2016 [59 favorites]


It'll be interesting to hear what two self-described dull/ b-listers say to each-other.

They might self-describe as B-listers, but it’s worth remembering that Mike Pence wasn’t riding particularly high in Indiana - one theory behind his joining the ticket was that he might lose his upcoming reelection bid. Kaine, while “bland”, is not unpopular.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:24 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


What Clinton needs to emphasize in the final month of the campaign is that she is absolutely NOT "equally bad" as Trump. The endorsement of Michael Chertoff, who was lead Republican counsel on the Senate Whitewater Committee and W.'s second head of Homeland Security, needs to be put front-and-center.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:28 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


I suspect Hillary will still win Ohio - though the polls suggest otherwise - because I think the people who turned up to vote for Obama will turn up to vote to vote for Sec Clinton and the people who say they're going to vote for Trump won't actually get out and do it.
posted by Tevin at 1:30 PM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Eh, I'm not sure she's going to want to hitch her wagon to Michael freaking Chertoff. His endorsement was a pretty tepid "well, she's not Trump" style endorsement, and if his campaign tries to get mileage out of it, it could backfire if he's like "well, I didn't say I was thrilled about it, and actually, I have my issues with her involvement in Whitewater even though she was cleared of wrongdoing" or whatever... Just too much downside there for what seems to be very little upside. Anyone who thinks Whitewater is an Actual Thing that voters should care about in 2016 probably isn't very gettable.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:31 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


How do we get from Trump calling PTSD survivors weak to Flynn disavowing that suggestion while saying what his boss really meant?

The same way we get from Hillary calling Sanders supporters "basement dwellers" to Sanders himself disavowing that suggestion while saying what she really meant. Look at the actual quote, and read the intent. He said some people can handle it (meaning returning from combat) and some people can't, and the people who can't need help - medical, spiritual, whatever.

Trump says enough stupid stuff; nobody needs to make up anything or read something nefarious in everything he says. He's no supervillain, and he's sure not an evil genius.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 1:32 PM on October 3, 2016 [12 favorites]


He's no supervillain, and he's sure not an evil genius.
He's certainly no Lex Luthor, who in one of the multiple DC Universes WAS elected President, but he is a creation of The Media, the so-called Liberal Media, and a big part of the blame belongs to The New York Times and NBC. I've said before that the entire "Real Estate Ads" department prepares for layoffs when a new anti-Trump piece is published, and NBC is owned by Comcast, who'd be the #1 beneficiary of a Republican do-nothing FCC.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:39 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


OnceUponATime: I'm sympathetic to people in media right now.

I am completely and utterly not. They have shirked their responsibility and their entire job description throughout this campaign (and let's be honest, for far longer than that). No sympathy from me. The country relies on journalists. They are vital. I will hold them 100% accountable if Trump wins, without question. DO YOUR FUCKING JOBS.
posted by chonus at 1:39 PM on October 3, 2016 [34 favorites]


With regards to Wikileaks, I feel it's time to stop talking in vague terms. Assange's behavior, both personal and professional, shows he is willing to benefit himself at the expense of others. Wikileaks might have been a revelation when it started, but it's rapidly become a tool of Putin.

Right now, I'm comfortable assuming all hacks are Russian until proven otherwise.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 1:40 PM on October 3, 2016 [15 favorites]


Welp, never shopping at Home Depot again.
posted by cashman at 1:40 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


the people who say they're going to vote for Trump won't actually get out and do it.

I think this is especially true if he starts to look unlikely to win in a given state. His base is disaffected white guys who haven't been voting and they aren't likely to muster the gumption if they feel like it isn't a sure thing for their guy, or at least a close race. I hope this results in unambiguous swing state wins for Clinton, removing some of the potential for post-election disputes. Trump's whole thing is being a big strong winner, and once the stink of failure starts to stick there's a good chance his heretofore loyal fans will start deserting in droves.
posted by contraption at 1:41 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


How do we get from Trump calling PTSD survivors weak to Flynn disavowing that suggestion while saying what his boss really meant? I mean, we've done this before, but it's all the media's fault for quoting Trump in context?

Trump Sick and Tired Of Mainstream Media Always Trying To Put His Words Into Some Sort Of Context

The Onion AND [real] - satire and reality in the Trump campaign have been racing around at such speed that it's impossible to tell which one is lapping which.
posted by Doktor Zed at 1:42 PM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


Here in the UK, David Fahrenthold was just interviewed live on Sky News about the foundation revelations. Trump did not come out of it well.

The Sky anchor ended the piece with "Mr Trump is the gift that just keeps on giving, isn't he?"
posted by knapah at 1:42 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Mr Trump is the gift that just keeps on giving, isn't he?"

Technically, he's the gift that never gives and, instead, takes.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:42 PM on October 3, 2016 [35 favorites]


Right now, I'm comfortable assuming all hacks are Russian until proven otherwise.

What the typeface didn't convince the latest one was totally legit?
posted by asteria at 1:45 PM on October 3, 2016


gift that just keeps on giving

I've heard Herpes described the same way.
posted by cmfletcher at 1:46 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


For the Southern part of that strip my guess is "racism." ... the overarching cause, I think, is fear.

It's easy and tempting to think that people think bad things and have, in some respects, bad values because of bad reasons. But it's not like it should be a surprise that rural and rural-city whites trend conservative, just like they have pretty much since polling came around. Apart from Texas, this strip of states is near the bottom in percent-in-metro-areas. And if you narrowed it down further into percent-urban-in-metro-areas (as opposed to the rural exurbs of metro areas), they'd probably drop even further.

And apart from the oil/gas patches, these states haven't seen the influx of new arrivals that the south and sunbelt have. People in these states tend pretty strongly to be from there or from a neighboring state, and many of them are losing population... which also ages them, since emigrants tend to be younger. So... old rural-ish white people are conservative. Well, yeah.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:47 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Wikileaks" was suspect to me the first time I heard its "let's piggyback on Wikipedia that has no connection to us" name. Its single public spokesman, Assange, just added to the unreliability in my mind, long ago. One thing's certain, if Trump wins, Assange gets to move out of the Wherever Embassy in favor of a suite in any Trump building he wishes.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:50 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


To explain the Home Depot thing, the co-founder of Home Depot is in the front at a trump rally currently, and supports Trump. And apparently today was supposed to be Trump's campaign releasing a letter signed by a bunch of executives that was going to boost Trump's reputation - but obviously the day has been dominated by Trump's tax scandal (s).
posted by cashman at 1:51 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


In defense of Home Depot, the co-founder who supports Trump hasn't been involved with the company for over a decade. Home Depot also has a strong reputation for donationg to LGBTQ causes even when threatened with boycott.
posted by infinitywaltz at 1:52 PM on October 3, 2016 [41 favorites]


"Wikileaks" was suspect to me the first time I heard its "let's piggyback on Wikipedia that has no connection to us" name.

You know that wiki is a general term, right? Wikipedia is a wiki, it's not the wiki.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:52 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


But Wikileaks isn't a Wiki?
posted by Artw at 1:54 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yep, Carl's Jr. for Trump. I'm gonna miss their Western Bacon Burger.

And yes, but by the time -leaks started trading off the name, most people associated it with the -pedia. NOT an unconscious move, come on!
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:54 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Then it's a silly name, but not because of anything to do with Wikipedia.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:55 PM on October 3, 2016


But Wikileaks isn't a Wiki?

It's named Wikileaks because it's crowdsourced just like Wikipedia.

Your concern would be valid if it were Leakpedia.
posted by Talez at 1:57 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


If only they had named it Wookieleaks after the popular Wookiepedia
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 1:58 PM on October 3, 2016 [17 favorites]


Given the Stone/Assange bromance, they should call it wackyleaks.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:59 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's named Wikileaks because it's crowdsourced just like Wikipedia.

Yeah, um, no. Aside from being Assamges private mouthpiece there's more to wikis than crowd sourcing.

And it can be a silly name because it isn't a Wiki AND because it's trying to piggyback on Wikipedia specifically, TBH.
posted by Artw at 1:59 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


“Wikileaks” was suspect to me the first time I heard its “let’s piggyback on Wikipedia that has no connection to us” name.

You know that wiki is a general term, right? Wikipedia is a wiki, it's not the wiki.


This is true, but “the wiki about topic X” tends to be shortened to “X wiki”. Also, though wikileaks have changed the layout, the original version described itself as an “an uncensorable Wikipedia for untraceable mass document leaking and analysis.” I’m not saying that Assange was trying to confuse, but he was certainly trying to piggyback.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:59 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


The original concept for Wikileaks was that anyone could anonymously upload information or post their own comments and analysis of uploaded documents. The site even ran on the same software as Wikipedia for a while. They killed this pretty early on, but kept the name.
posted by theodolite at 2:00 PM on October 3, 2016 [12 favorites]


What to do when you spill so much water on your macbook keyboard that it makes sloshing sounds and water comes pouring out of the side, causing you to lose your place in the election megathread:

- Turn it upside down IMMEDIATELY and put it in a bag of rice to dry out
- Go to your favorited comments section (on your old laptop) and click on your most recent favorited comment to get back to business. (Note: also a good strategy for switching from laptop to phone and vice versa)
posted by insoluble uncertainty at 2:01 PM on October 3, 2016 [25 favorites]


- Go to your favorited comments section (on your old laptop) and click on your most recent favorited comment to get back to business. (Note: also a good strategy for switching from laptop to phone and vice versa)

That doesn't work sometimes because Tehhund is busy fucking everyone's favourited comments order. THANKS TEHHUND!
posted by Talez at 2:04 PM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


It's going to be hard to turn Evangelicals into Democrats while abortion and homosexuality are still such hot-button issues.

Homosexuality is going away as an issue. Too many under-40s just don't give a shit.

Just playing with 2012 CCES data, the only states where a majority of under-40s opposed marriage equality in 2012 were Alabama, Idaho, Mississippi, North Dakota, Oklahoma, and (duh) Utah. The only state where 60\% of under-40s opposed SSM in 2012 was Idaho, and that only barely. (note: sample sizes in some states will be weensy, take with big lump of salt)

I can't remember the details, but I saw a paper about politics and evangelicals and one problem evangelical or born-again (not exactly the same thing) churches are starting to have is that instead of people picking up conservative politics after joining the church, younger people are starting to avoid those churches because of their conservative politics. Like... "I can't be Baptist, that's for old people screaming about gays."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:04 PM on October 3, 2016 [29 favorites]


I meant the most recent comment favorited BY you, not most recent comment of yours to receive a favorite.
posted by insoluble uncertainty at 2:10 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


What to do when you spill so much water on your macbook keyboard that it makes sloshing sounds and water comes pouring out of the side, causing you to lose your place in the election megathread:

posted by insoluble uncertainty


Hydroponysterical!
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:10 PM on October 3, 2016 [34 favorites]


Wikileaks claims to be devoted to transparency and openness yet they won't live by those rules. Consider the absurdity of Assange deciding to withhold some secret information he has obtained on Hillary Clinton. Some information so shocking that it would alter the outcome election. The very secrets of the corrupt and powerful that Wikileaks supposedly exists to expose. And that's just the surface. Look more closely and you'll see an organization that is run as the personal fiefdom of Assange without audits, accountability or oversight. He regularly boasts of other secrets he's been given but holds back.
posted by humanfont at 2:12 PM on October 3, 2016 [30 favorites]


Instead of blaming journalists, help us register voters and get out the vote for Clinton.

This is not an either/or.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:19 PM on October 3, 2016 [16 favorites]


It's named Wikileaks because it's crowdsourceed just like Wikipedia.

If by "crowdsourceed" you mean the source is a crowd of hackers in the Kremlin...

In other words, not at all like Wikipedia.
posted by happyroach at 2:23 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


“It’s disconcerting, because seniors have been the core of our base in recent years,” Republican pollster Ed Goeas said, adding that private polling shows similar trends.

Eldsters just aren't that into dank memes?

posted by Artw at 4:17 PM

Judging by my mother (79) and her friends they are not into bad manners. Sit up straight, spit that gum out, be polite, and don't revert to name-calling. Seriously. My mom the life-long Republican was grossed out by Trump way back in March.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:26 PM on October 3, 2016 [19 favorites]


@AliVitali: Mic pops loudly again. "I'm telling you the commission on presidential debates is operating this mic…what a joke they are," Trump jokes.

Later he called the United States a "Banana Republic." What a nasty man with a nasty attitude. He belittles everyone and everything. Why do we have to be subjected to this jerk?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:33 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Thanks for the tip, insoluble uncertainty! Hope your MacBook is ok!
posted by rabbitrabbit at 2:34 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Reminder: When Trump says "Banana Republic," he means "the dude in charge isn't white."
posted by stolyarova at 2:34 PM on October 3, 2016 [29 favorites]


When Trump says "Banana Republic," he means "I wanna be the Top Banana".
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:36 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


But there is some part of me that tends to revolt against the idea of familial dynasties in American politics.

I can appreciate the confusion but Hillary, despite being married to a former governor of Arkansas, is unrelated to him by blood.
posted by srboisvert at 2:37 PM on October 3, 2016 [19 favorites]


Is there ever money in the banana stand?
posted by pxe2000 at 2:38 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


New Republic Donald Trump’s lewd comments about his daughters are a window into his warped views on gender.
It’s tempting to analyze these statements in Oedipal terms. But perhaps they say more about Trump’s relationship with women in general than his particular relationship with his daughters. As Michelle Goldberg convincingly argued in Slate, “For Trump, the only salient distinction when judging a women’s worth is whether she is fuckable or unfuckable.”

If that is the starting premise, then the logic is inescapable: 1) Women are worthy to the extent they are fuckable; 2) my daughters are women; 3) I value them more than anything; 4) so the highest praise I can give them is to say they are extremely fuckable. As a man who loves his daughters, Trump can think of no greater way to express his affection than to praise them as sex goddesses. His comments might make others cringe, but from Trump’s point of view they are heartfelt displays of love.
I've always thought that as a true narcissist his daughters are just extensions of himself. The better looking they are the better he likes them because they validate his own vanity. He is not a female but he can compare a camerawoman's behind with Ivanka's and that is as close as he can get to making himself the gold standard.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:39 PM on October 3, 2016 [36 favorites]


Robert Reich on Twitter: Trump is to business what a skunk is to a dinner party. He makes a stink and people pay him. When he owes money he hides in the bushes.

This election is making us all lose our goddamn minds.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 2:39 PM on October 3, 2016 [33 favorites]


> How can 40%+ of the population STILL SUPPORT THIS GUY after the week he's had?!

If you subtract out the 27% crazification factor, I'd like to believe the remaining 13+% just think they are watching Trump star in his latest reality TV show, The Biggest Loser.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 2:40 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


My grandparents—hard-core creationist focus-on-the-family over-90-year-old republicans—are not voting for Trump this year. My grandmother plans to abstain, and my grandfather says he plans to vote for Clinton. I fell out of my chair when I heard that.
posted by you're a kitty! at 2:42 PM on October 3, 2016 [59 favorites]


Oooo Trump Mirror alert!

@AliVitali: Trump says Hillary Clinton "hasn’t made an honest dollar in her entire life."

What's really interesting is that she has made money as a professional speaker-- and so has he-- and she made money writing a book--and so has he. Aside from all of his shady business dealings and his corrupt Foundation, I wonder if he thinks deep inside that taking money for speaking engagements and publishing books is dishonest.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:46 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


People pay skunks at dinner parties??
posted by ian1977 at 2:47 PM on October 3, 2016 [30 favorites]


It's...maybe not the perfect metaphor.
posted by infinitywaltz at 2:48 PM on October 3, 2016 [33 favorites]


strange chain:

Clinton 46
Trump 39

Clinton 42
Trump 36
Johnson 9
Stein 2

Sep 30-Oct 2, +/-2%


Can "What's Aleppo?" please just drop out?

answer: the least funny Marx Brother
posted by chonus at 2:48 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


That metaphor is like a liquor store that leases chipmunks on Flag Day.
posted by ian1977 at 2:50 PM on October 3, 2016 [38 favorites]


Heh. Someone has found a tweet from Trump on Aug 22, 2015 where he writes "How is Bernie Sanders going to defend our country if he can't even defend his own microphone. Very sad!"
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:51 PM on October 3, 2016 [32 favorites]


Of all the things that have gotten through my 2016 filter to punch me straight in the goddamn gut, the opening story in The Choice about young, wild-haired, proudly feminist Hillary Rodham, with her floral pants and big glasses and law career, being forced to change her name and tame her hair and lose weight and start wearing skirt suits, and and and, just to recover their chances at a political career just.... it made me real-cry.

I want her to get two terms and on the first day of her second term I want her to change her name back.
posted by you're a kitty! at 2:57 PM on October 3, 2016 [83 favorites]


If you subtract out the 27% crazification factor, I'd like to believe the remaining 13+% just think they are watching Trump star in his latest reality TV show, The Biggest Loser.

There’s no one unified theory for this. How many Rs don’t believe that Trump can’t win but also believe that he’s the guy their team is backing this year? How many believe he can be controlled? How many just don’t trust Clinton? One problem with “the 27% crazification factor” is that it suggests that there’s a block of people whose rationales are inexplicable and a separate, distinct block that can be understood. But it’s all a hodgepodge, and it’s why the campaign only goes after people who are sitting on the fence and not, you know, the die-hard supporters.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:58 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Aside from all of his shady business dealings and his corrupt Foundation, I wonder if he thinks deep inside that taking money for speaking engagements and publishing books is dishonest.

He definitely thinks that it's not real business. Didn't he actually say that he would give his Art of the Deal royalties to charity? (Not that that would be a bad thing, assuming it were true.)
posted by roll truck roll at 2:58 PM on October 3, 2016


The latest polls have greatly helped the JCPL! It's gonna stay at moderate until we see what, if anything, is in these possibly bullshit Wikileaks announcements though. I am however looking forward to more Trump meltdowns in the coming weeks.
posted by Justinian at 3:01 PM on October 3, 2016 [31 favorites]


Didn’t he actually say that he would give his Art of the Deal royalties to charity? (Not that that would be a bad thing, assuming it were true.)

Yes. Indeed, the Trump Foundation was originally set up to take the royalties from The Art Of The Deal.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:04 PM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]




#DaddyWilSaveUs

I uh... ugh
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 3:14 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


Political dynasties are bad because, well, there's ten thousand years of human history to judge, and hereditary rule is pretty much the worst form of succession that a society can choose. That's why we instinctually shy away from the idea of it (when we're not busy electing George W. Bush. Twice.). And Hilary has the same last name as Bill, so hey, same thing, right?

Gotta say as an anthropologist that this is not really accurate. Most human societies prior to the modern era (and many since) have been kinship-based, either directly or metaphorically, and hereditary succession (whether matrilineal or patrilineal, both are well attested in the anthropological literature) is by far the most common (and arguably natural in evolutionary terms) human approach to leadership and governance across cultures and very likely over a *lot* longer than "ten thousand years," which is well after the dawn of agriculture (and the subsequent division of labor that produces social classes and non-kinship based social relations where non-hereditary leadership even becomes a possibility as social groups get larger and more settled and economically diversified within any given society). We don't "instinctually shy away" from any form of governance that I am aware of as a proven scientific fact, at least. If anything, hereditary leadership is likely our most "instinctual" idiom of governance, as kinship is certainly an (the) instinctual idiom of relationship.
posted by spitbull at 3:15 PM on October 3, 2016 [16 favorites]


Biden responds to Trump's PTSD comments.
posted by melissasaurus at 3:16 PM on October 3, 2016 [29 favorites]


#Twinks4TaxRelief
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:17 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


OK, GhostintheMachine, I will walk my comment back, having read the entire transcript of his rally. He does state that under his administration there would be more help for soldiers and vets although he did not state any concrete plans. I'm still somewhat skeptical due to his documented treatment of others with needs, but I will concede your point and apologize to Mr. Trump for my error.
posted by Silverstone at 3:18 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's easy and tempting to think that people think bad things and have, in some respects, bad values because of bad reasons. But it's not like it should be a surprise that rural and rural-city whites trend conservative, just like they have pretty much since polling came around.

Yep. From north to south the Dem side is socially-conservative rural populism, farm-state subsidised subsistence with evangelical characteristics... then Texas. But ND down to OK is only 24 electoral votes in total: fewer than Florida. Acreage doesn't vote.

Winning Senate seats and governorships and a decent presence in state legislatures matters more in those states than presidential contests.
posted by holgate at 3:18 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Twinks4Trump

What in the fresh hell? This cannot possibly be real.

Milo Yiannopoulos

Well, that explains everything. Trolls gonna troll.
posted by chaoticgood at 3:18 PM on October 3, 2016 [10 favorites]


Indeed, the Trump Foundation was originally set up to take the royalties from The Art Of The Deal.

Ooooh. THAT kind of charity.
posted by Artw at 3:19 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


A potential explanation for a lot: "America Is Literally In An Abusive Relationship With Donald Trump" (apologies if this has been linked before; it seems obvious, and it's a few days old)

And Domestic Abusers DO belong in jail.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:24 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


Indeed, the Trump Foundation was originally set up to take the royalties from The Art Of The Deal.

Ooooh. THAT kind of charity.

Ah, no - it was going to distribute those royalties (and I think it did? Some of them?) Indeed, this is part of the whole issue with the Trump foundation. The Clintons, for instance, have both The Clinton Foundation and The Clinton Family Foundation. The Trumps just have the latter foundation. Indeed, the interesting running thread of Farenthold’s reporting on the fact that Trump seemed to be getting his wages paid into that Foundation is that it would be fine except that
a) he would have to be paying income taxes before they were deposited.
b) he would need to use the money for philanthropic giving. (I think? Certainly that was the case with the portrait the foundation acquired, but I’m not sure that that applies to the cash - tho’ it would definitely make sense.)
posted by Going To Maine at 3:28 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


(The Trump Family Foundation does seem to have become that kind of foundation, though...)
posted by Going To Maine at 3:29 PM on October 3, 2016


In the Heart of Trump Country [SLNewYorker]. Good, thoughtful, empathetic reporting.
posted by suelac at 3:37 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


Instead of blaming journalists, help us register voters and get out the vote for Clinton.

I am not happy with the way many of my previous go-to media sources (*cough* NPR *cough*) have chosen to cover the election, but it's important to remember how many of these journalists have had their workforce and livelihood gutted in the past decade. I read a story last week on the ongoing destruction of the Denver Post because of corporate greed and changing business models. If their story is representative to what's happening to other city papers, I don't think it's fair to accuse journalists of not doing their jobs if they don't have the support and resources to do these jobs in the first place. I suspect many of them are doing the best they can in a completely fucked situation.

The people in charge of the media companies who employ these journalists? I'm fine castigating them, but I've never considered them journalists in the first place.
posted by bibliowench at 3:39 PM on October 3, 2016 [15 favorites]


In the Heart of Trump Country [SLNewYorker]. Good, thoughtful, empathetic reporting.

I will read this, because I like going crazy. However, I would also love to read a piece on “The Heart of Clinton Country”. I don’t think it exists.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:43 PM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


Someone should reassure the Trump supporters that this thing with the Foundation isn't a "liberal attack;" it's a matter of misfiled paperwork. The Foundation was a type that's not allowed to ask for money, and since Trump's been asking for donations to go to it, it has to file as a different category and, because that category has public records, submit those records to the state.

No problem. As long as all its actions are within the law, this is a minor matter of accounting paperwork - it might be a bit of a rush to complete all at once, but I'm sure they can get an extension if they can't provide the complete records within a couple of weeks, as long as they hand over what they've got ready by then.

Of course, it's possible that some of the actions are within the law for their current type of foundation and not the other, in which case, there may be some penalties, but these kinds of bureaucratic scrambles happen all the time; you pay a penalty and move on with life.

Unless, of course, your entire foundation's purpose is to hide illegal tax dodges, in which case, "pay a fine and keep better records in the future" won't fix things.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:43 PM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


Accountant: Ok, I've got everything cooked for you. This stuff is all pretty shady and somewhat illegal, but as long as you don't do something silly like run for President you're apt to get away with it.

Donald: *distracted by someone on Twitter calling him a millionaire* OK fine whatever

*later*

Donald: What was it my accountant was saying? Something something run for President.
posted by ckape at 3:44 PM on October 3, 2016 [67 favorites]


Nolan D. McCaskill at Politico: “Trump boasts about ‘brilliantly’ using the tax laws”
posted by Going To Maine at 3:54 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


(Looks like the last time Kansas, Nebraska, and Oklahoma went Dem was 1964.) What is the factor that makes those states so extremely conservative?

Born in Nebraska where I lived till I was 25 and still have family. Here is my take on it..
There is a strain of Midwestern thinking that prizes self-reliance above all else while remaining completely oblivious to how interconnected everything is. Being out there in the middle, you are somewhat insulated from the more turbulent ebbs and flows of the national economy, land is cheap and plentiful, and there's lots of pretty-well-paying low-level white collar jobs around from so many data centers and (back in the day) telemarketing.
Now, since there's an ever-stretching plain to build new housing on, housing is cheap and best of all you'll never have to see a face less pale than yours if you don't want to. Couple this with a low cost of living and you have a situation where lots and lots of unremarkable white guys with unremarkable skillsets are able to own a house and a couple cars with very little economic friction and they are able to live a life free of color if that's what they want to do.
And since they did it, clearly the only thing stopping black people from doing it too is the will to work for a living. That has to be it, because, "hey Im not all that special, smart, or skilled and I did it." So it must be a laziness inherent in "them" culturally.
I have been hearing variations on this theme all my life from friends and acquaintances back there. Its one of the things I miss least about "home": the staggering cultural whiteness of it all.
But that's my read on things.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 3:55 PM on October 3, 2016 [51 favorites]


So, for those of you who haven't been paying close attention to more local voting issues*, I like to recommend The League of Women Voters. They should have a downloadable pdf for your community giving a summary of the issues and candidates. The organization tries to be as neutral as possible in their summaries. I like to recommend it for low information voters, too, since many of them are unaware of some of the stances of politicians. I haven't checked it out yet, they may have had some difficulty pinning down Trump's stances.(lol)

Anyone know of other groups that try to do something like it?

*me
posted by annsunny at 4:01 PM on October 3, 2016 [20 favorites]


You know, like the down-market Toyotas!

Hey! I just have to say I love my Scion xd. Don't smear a perfectly good car brand with the Stink of Trump.
posted by threeturtles at 4:12 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


I will read this, because I like going crazy. However, I would also love to read a piece on “The Heart of Clinton Country”. I don’t think it exists.

It does exist. It's just not majority white.
posted by one_bean at 4:18 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


For the first time in a long time the PEC has bumped HRC a few more safe EV, from 214 to 218. also the win probability is back into the mid/high 80's where it was after the DNC. My own JCPL is relatively stable/low when those numbers are where they are.
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:19 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Couple this with a low cost of living and you have a situation where lots and lots of unremarkable white guys with unremarkable skillsets are able to own a house and a couple cars with very little economic friction and they are able to live a life free of color if that's what they want to do. And since they did it, clearly the only thing stopping black people from doing it too is the will to work for a living.

Many of these folks fail to recognize that their status is a direct result of the labor and equity built by their ancestors. My grandparents and parents certainly sacrificed but not *nearly* as much as my great-parents that built their families up from a hole in the ground.
posted by nathan_teske at 4:20 PM on October 3, 2016 [14 favorites]


*I will read this, because I like going crazy. However, I would also love to read a piece on “The Heart of Clinton Country”. I don’t think it exists.

It does exist. It's just not majority white.*

Oh, language! By “it”, I meant the piece, not the place. The place must exist, because Clinton beat Sanders and has plenty of support. It just gets ignored.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:20 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]




Hey! I just have to say I love my Scion xd. Don't smear a perfectly good car brand with the Stink of Trump.

Too late. You own a GATTACAr now.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:23 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


I guess if we're talking dynasties, I guess Hillary would be Hatshepsut? I could live with that.
posted by happyroach at 4:24 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


but not *nearly* as much as my great-parents that built their families up from a hole in the ground.

Not to mention the folks who occupied that ground as sovereign territory for a few thousand years before the settlers came.
posted by spitbull at 4:27 PM on October 3, 2016 [11 favorites]


Democrats unveil ad series to boost minority voter turnout:
The DNC’s seven-figure ad buy will be featured on radio, print and digital outlets tailored to African-Americans, Hispanic and Asian-American and Pacific Islanders across the country.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:27 PM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think we need to stop demonizing entire states. Even in liberal states, 30-40% of the population is going to vote for Trump; only in Ohio and Kansas etc, it's 10-20% "extra" on top of that. If California were demographically similar to Ohio (whiter and older), the poll numbers would be very close. To answer why Ohio votes for Trump, you have to first answer why a large chunk of California does too.
posted by miyabo at 4:28 PM on October 3, 2016 [52 favorites]


I know Diamond Joe has a lot of well-earned vacation coming up*, but can we keep him around as VP Emeritus or something? Have him swing by once in a while to call out malarkey that's piled up?

*that corvette isn't going to drive itself around.
posted by strange chain at 4:29 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm sure the Onion would approve of Joe hanging around in some capacity.
posted by drewbage1847 at 4:30 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


NYT Reporter Who Received Donald Trump's Tax Documents Speaks Out | Andrea Mitchell | MSNBC

Andrea presses her into "no comment"ing on whether she knew who sent them.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:35 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


My ill-tempered and racist father and Republican Women's Activist mother moved me from Cleveland, Ohio to Los Angeles, California when I was 5½ years old, for which I will always be thankful. Although he did take the first amount of the money he got from the promotion he was transferred for to buy a house in a lily-white suburb in the San Fernando Valley, less than half-a-block from the 5-lane 101 Freeway. So if California is not demographically closer to Ohio, it's not for lack of my family's effort.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:44 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think we need to stop demonizing entire states.

It's the reaction to the 'American Heartland' narrative, even though that narrative is itself partly a creation of coastal popular and political culture. You don't hear quite the same stuff about Idaho, land of potatoes and white supremacist militias.
posted by holgate at 4:46 PM on October 3, 2016 [19 favorites]


I think we need to stop demonizing entire states.

It’s the reaction to the 'American Heartland' narrative, even though that narrative is itself partly a creation of coastal popular and political culture. You don't hear quite the same stuff about Idaho, land of potatoes and white supremacist militias.

I’m not far into Nixonland yet, but one of its big arguments seems to be that while Nixon was good with the politics of resentment, there were plenty of folks happy to use it on the other side of the aisle.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:51 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


@JTSantucci: Trump on his failures in the past: "I was young and you have to learn."

Donald Trump was 49 in 1995.
posted by peeedro at 4:52 PM on October 3, 2016 [35 favorites]


It's the reaction to the 'American Heartland' narrative, even though that narrative is itself partly a creation of coastal popular and political culture. You don't hear quite the same stuff about Idaho, land of potatoes and white supremacist militias.

Close enough: I Hate Illinois Nazis
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:54 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


I mean, today is my 51st birthday (somehow?), and I'm still learning. Failure is part of life and all that.
But my failures didn't ruin individual lives, businesses, or entire communities, so come on, dude. That's just bullshit.
posted by Superplin at 4:56 PM on October 3, 2016 [31 favorites]


It's interesting because Stein and Johnson seem to be fading in a bunch of states and while some are coming home to the Republicans an increasing percentage seem to be willing to at least give Clinton a shot as President because no matter what she's soooo much better than any of the alternatives.
posted by vuron at 4:56 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


@ddale8: Obama: "I see a straight line from the announcement of Sarah Palin as the vice-presidential nominee to what we see today in Donald Trump."

Good news for John McCain.
posted by chris24 at 4:57 PM on October 3, 2016 [22 favorites]


One of my children reports that their shop teacher was ranting about what a liar Hillary is today. I am feeling grumbly about the situation.
posted by humanfont at 5:04 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


AP just released a story about Trump's mysogynist and sexist behaviour on the set of the Apprentice.
posted by awfurby at 5:05 PM on October 3, 2016


I mean, today is my 51st birthday (somehow?), and I'm still learning. Failure is part of life and all that.
But my failures didn't ruin individual lives, businesses, or entire communities, so come on, dude. That's just bullshit.

Hey, Superplin, the day isn't over yet, you could still get cracking!

(And happy birthday!)
posted by Salieri at 5:07 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Salieri: Hey, Superplin, the day isn't over yet, you could still get cracking!

Well, my mission daily is to corrupt young lives, so I suppose I may be more successful than I realize. (And thank you!)
posted by Superplin at 5:09 PM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Donald Trump was 49 in 1995

He is eternally young at both heart and brain.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:09 PM on October 3, 2016


and hands
posted by Spathe Cadet at 5:10 PM on October 3, 2016 [16 favorites]


So more news from "Trump Country". My bother in law, who drives a truck for a company that supplies lumber yards, were talking about Anastasiav's question. At some point he said something like, "Well, because of work I rub elbows with a lot of Trump supporters. I think a lot of them are having some buyer's remorse right now."

Reduced my JCPL.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:11 PM on October 3, 2016 [14 favorites]


One of my children reports that their shop teacher was ranting about what a liar Hillary is today. I am feeling grumbly about the situation.

Uhhhh... That's kind of unconstitutional and should be reported to the principal if not the superintendent.
posted by Talez at 5:12 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump Team Turns ClintonKaine.com Into a Mini-Drudge Report:
If you happen to click on a link to clintonkaine.com in the next few weeks, you may notice something peculiar—namely, the part that the bottom that says “Paid for by Donald J. Trump for President.”

No, Trump hasn’t suddenly started supporting Hillary Clinton (though, really, that would just be the latest in a long list of Trump campaign trail contradictions). His team bought the domain for $15,000; now they’ve transformed it into a site all about Clinton’s scandals. It’s like their own personal Drudge Report, complete with underlined, all-caps headlines such as “CLINTON CALLS SANDERS SUPPORTERS BASEMENT DWELLERS.”
The best part is that they screwed up their SSL configuration so the site gave me a warning in both Safari and Firefox (they were using a letsencrypt cert for another domain). Now I'm trying again and I don't get a certificate error, but the stylesheet doesn't load and it looks like 1992.

Sad.
posted by zachlipton at 5:14 PM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


That's kind of unconstitutional and should be reported to the principal if not the superintendent

... um, no. That's not unconstitutional. That teacher is behaving unprofessionally, but it's not unconstitutional to talk about politics at work, even if one is a public employee.
posted by suelac at 5:16 PM on October 3, 2016 [36 favorites]


I'm only surprised at the public acknowledgment, since this is essentially what I expected based on what I've read of her career: GOP Senators: We Could Work With Hillary Clinton.

The fact that they unabashedly acknowledge their a priori obstructionist strategy against Obama makes me feel ill, though.
posted by Superplin at 5:19 PM on October 3, 2016 [11 favorites]


During debate, Ayotte says Trump "absolutely" a role model for kids

Can any NH mefites chime in on whether this'll make a difference in that senate race?
posted by strange chain at 5:19 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


For ClintonKaine.com, the same tech geniuses who failed to realize that you can't have an https-only site that hardcodes http-only paths for scripts and stylesheets did spend their time embedding this HILL NO ASCII art into the HTML as a comment, so that's some really top-notch work there.
posted by zachlipton at 5:20 PM on October 3, 2016 [13 favorites]


... um, no. That's not unconstitutional. That teacher is behaving unprofessionally, but it's not unconstitutional to talk about politics at work, even if one is a public employee.

I want to emphasize this point. It is not at all unconstitutional. I'm a state employee and cannot openly campaign using my university email, or claim to represent the institution, but I absolutely am not prohibited from expressing my political opinions, even to students.
posted by Superplin at 5:21 PM on October 3, 2016 [11 favorites]


For ClintonKaine.com, the same tech geniuses who failed to realize that you can't have an https-only site that hardcodes http-only paths for scripts and stylesheets did spend their time embedding this HILL NO ASCII art into the HTML as a comment, so that's some really top-notch work there.

That totally jibes with modern conservatism where any affirmative statement of beliefs is incidental to the prime directive of pissing off liberals.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:24 PM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


Tim Kaine needs to drop a "Gosh Darnit" tomorrow.
posted by drezdn at 5:25 PM on October 3, 2016 [13 favorites]


If you look at the archive you can see that clintonkaine.com used to host some bizarre Hillary/Harry Potter crossover fic.
posted by Biblio at 5:28 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


drezdn: Tim Kaine needs to drop a "Gosh Darnit" tomorrow.

If he can do this plus incorporate a casual Biden-esque "malarkey," he will have won my heart forever.
I may need to make a Tim Kaine Dadspeak bingo card.
posted by Superplin at 5:32 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


For ClintonKaine.com, the same tech geniuses who failed to realize that you can't have an https-only site that hardcodes http-only paths for scripts and stylesheets did spend their time embedding this HILL NO ASCII art into the HTML as a comment, so that's some really top-notch work there.

"I have a son. He's 10 years old. He has computers. He is so good with these computers, it's unbelievable."
posted by merocet at 5:35 PM on October 3, 2016 [33 favorites]


I want to emphasize this point. It is not at all unconstitutional. I'm a state employee and cannot openly campaign using my university email, or claim to represent the institution, but I absolutely am not prohibited from expressing my political opinions, even to students.

This issue is significantly more complicated when you are teaching K-12, and all three public school districts I have taught in have had explicit bans on non-scholastic political speech in the classroom. It is probably worth an e-mail to the principal to at least query the policy without naming names; certainly, this is a question that s/he should be prepared for this year. The very first page of this ACLU (Washington) guide notes that
Generally, the First Amendment protects your speech if you are speaking as a private citizen on a matter of public concern. However, if you are speaking in an official capacity (within the duties of your job), your speech will not have the same protection. What you say or communicate inside the classroom is considered speech on behalf of the school district and therefore will not be entitled to much protection.
posted by charmedimsure at 5:44 PM on October 3, 2016 [19 favorites]


I do hope that clintonkaine.com site remains completely accessible, because having looked at its contents and comparing them to Comet Flaming-Caca streaking across the skies of Planet Trump at the moment, it's not so much taking a knife to a gunfight as turning up on a skateboard with a water pistol at the Battle of Kursk.
posted by Devonian at 5:47 PM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Author Timothy O'Brian has seen Trump's tax returns, and has some thoughts:
While I can’t write specifically about what I saw, I can say that the returns would give voters useful and tangible insights into Trump’s actual track record as a businessman, philanthropist and taxpayer.

But Trump has chosen not to release his returns. And I doubt he ever will, because they would reveal that the career he boasts so much about is built on sand.
posted by Superplin at 5:49 PM on October 3, 2016 [30 favorites]


charmedimsure: This issue is significantly more complicated when you are teaching K-12

I cede the point, as I know little about K-12. I was reacting mostly to the notion--which has also been expressed to me, as a college-level educator--that we are somehow expected to neither have nor express political opinions, ever. I do agree that it's a much thornier matter in primary and secondary institutions.

I may also be extra touchy because I am voluntarily restricting my political Twitter activity to @mentions, which is a partial and imperfect attempt to keep partisan politics from affecting my student evaluations and thus endangering my job (don't get me started).
posted by Superplin at 5:54 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Chris Hayes talked about today's appellate court ruling against Mike Pence relating to Pence trying to stop refugees from finding refuge in the state of Indiana. The Indianapolis Star has coverage here, and the actual ruling is here. Hayes read this excerpt:
"He argues that his policy of excluding Syrian refugees is based not on nationality and thus is not discriminatory, but is based solely on the threat he thinks they pose to the safety of residents of Indiana. But that’s the equivalent of his saying (not that he does say) that he wants to forbid black people to settle in Indiana not because they’re black but because he’s afraid of them, and since race is therefore not his motive he isn’t discriminating. But that of course would be racial discrimination, just as his targeting Syrian refugees is discrimination on the basis of nationality."
Chris Hayes noted that all 3 of the judges are conservatives, appointed by Reagan and by Bush, and one of the judges is on Trump's list of possible supreme court nominees. Ouch. I love that this came out the night before the VP debate and I hope Kaine can somehow use it to characterize Pence.
posted by cashman at 5:57 PM on October 3, 2016 [46 favorites]


Chris Hayes also pointed out that the refugees are "highly vetted" as his intro to that segment, which I admired - most talking heads completely ignore that point and let Trump just keep on with the "we don't know who these people are"

one of the judges is on Trump's list of possible supreme court nominees

I feel like this might bolster people's feelings that Trump doesn't really want to do the terrible things though
posted by zutalors! at 5:59 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


I may also be extra touchy because I am voluntarily restricting my political Twitter activity to @mentions, which is a partial and imperfect attempt to keep partisan politics from affecting my student evaluations and thus endangering my job (don't get me started).

Totally different if you are teaching college. It sucks being worried that stuff will wind up in your evals; that's nuts. I get being extra touchy- aren't we all this year!- and my own touchy knee-jerk response is mostly that if I am being super-careful about advertising my political positions in front of my middle school kids in my deeeeeeeply red state- they're not curricular for me in any way, and when kids ask me even before/after school which way I am going to vote the farthest I will go is telling them that whatever they are guessing based on what they know about me is probably right- Trump supporters darn well better be too.
posted by charmedimsure at 6:03 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


To answer why Ohio votes for Trump, you have to first answer why a large chunk of California does too.

~80% of End Timers/Fundies, Orthodox Jews, Walmart shoppers*, and billionaires vote the (R) in the presidential election.

* this is probably the first category correlating, as Walmart is heavy on the ground in JesusLand.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:06 PM on October 3, 2016




Why didn't we get topics for tomorrow's debate? There are to be nine 10-minute segments....about what? Elaine Quijano is the moderator. I suppose it's just like Holt's situation, where she alone chooses the questions. But we didn't even get broad topics this time.
posted by cashman at 6:08 PM on October 3, 2016


Am I missing something about the whole "fiduciary responsibility" angle? I understand a company has a responsibility to lower its tax burden in order to maintain profitability and therefore keep shareholders and employees happy. But isn't this a personal loss? Who does this harm if he pays more tax than is absolutely required by law? Doesn't it just mean he doesn't make as much money?
posted by GhostintheMachine at 6:09 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Am I missing something about the whole "fiduciary responsibility" angle?

You aren't missing anything. Giuliani said something even dumber than usual.
posted by diogenes at 6:16 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


Walmart shoppers

Walmart is a massively successful superstore with cheap prices. To label Walmart shoppers as Trump voters is to sort of label poorer voters as Trump voters.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:16 PM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


It ain't just about the not-paying-taxes, though. I got into a conversation with someone saying "well, wait a minute, don't the rest of us also do the same thing, try to hack the tax code to get as much back as we can?"

I responded that it's one thing to save yourself a bunch of money by hacking your taxes. It's another thing entirely to save yourself a bunch of money by hacking your taxes and then waving that money around crowing "look how much money I made, I must be a good businessman!"

And then it is YET ANOTHER thing entirely to save yourself a bunch of money by hacking your taxes to write off your business losses, and then wave that money around crowing that it is proof you are a good businessman.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:20 PM on October 3, 2016 [21 favorites]


It's even another-other thing if you loudly proclaim that you use your tax-avoidance loot to bribe politicians all the time to get what you want, and hence would presumably have had a hand in creating the tax laws you're exploiting.
posted by XMLicious at 6:25 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


don't the rest of us also do the same thing, try to hack the tax code to get as much back as we can?

Not ...really?
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:29 PM on October 3, 2016 [30 favorites]


Walmart is a massively successful superstore with cheap prices. To label Walmart shoppers as Trump voters is to sort of label poorer voters as Trump voters.


Yep, I found that a bit off-putting. I shop at Walmart. I live in a small town and two Walmarts are 80% of the department-store shopping available. Sometimes I shop at Target instead but that's because I'm not poor and don't mind paying higher prices sometimes.

I don't look down on anyone who does their shopping there. They're not making a political statement, they just need food and clothing.
posted by mmoncur at 6:31 PM on October 3, 2016 [21 favorites]


What is the factor that makes those states so extremely conservative?

Racism is a factor, I'd never claim it's not, but on the whole I always find Texas less racist than the rest of the South and it's certainly more diverse, and getting more so all the time.

Protestantism in the more evangelical aspects is another part.

For Texas, though, guns might be the most salient issue. Not having their guns taken away is a REAL sticking point with a lot of people, including people I call friends and generally respect.

And there's a big philosophical Libertarian streak in Texas, the positive side of which is a "live and let live" attitude. The negative side tends to be "fuck the government trying to tell me what I can and can't do." The applies from everything from gun ownership to taxes to environmental regulations to sewage standards. I mean, the one local political meeting I went to (the local Democratic party) was taken over by a guy complaining about new requirements for septic tanks. And I had someone in my neighborhood who was running sewage onto their property and their neighbors property with no treatment, no septic at all.

I think one thing that may be common among these states is that they have a lot of land, a lot of ranching, a lot of people who own property. And among people who own rural property there tends to be this self-reliant attitude that tends to go along with "how dare you try to tell me what I can and can't do on my own property."

It's possibly because in rural areas us property owners don't often see the benefits of government in the same way city dwellers do. For example, where I am I have no city services. I have to pay someone to come get my garbage and paid to install my septic system and maintain it. There is no animal control, no law enforcement other than the county Sheriffs, only volunteer fire departments. So I can understand how the culture values those things less. (Although I always say I love paying my property taxes because damn our roads need all the help they can get, and I know the schools need it, even though I don't have kids.)

But it's a lot easier to appreciate what government can do when you have public transportation and access to health clinics and roads in good repair and hell sports stadiums and stuff. When there's nothing government is doing for you that you can actually SEE and TOUCH, it's easier to forget what's good about it.
posted by threeturtles at 6:32 PM on October 3, 2016 [33 favorites]


C'mon. The base thinks he'll cheat the "world tax" and bring that money back home. For them. They don't have the wherewithal to realize when they are being cheated. The hard line republicans with no sense think cheating on taxes is best practices.

With even the worst of clinton prosecutors coming out anti-trump, supporting him marks you as something less than American. It marks you as a sucker. It marks you a facist.

In a corrupt, reality-tv world, we got a grandma in a red pants-suit between us and the great void. God bless her. God bless you all. These threads rock.
posted by valkane at 6:38 PM on October 3, 2016 [12 favorites]


If you want an extremely in-depth look at the Trump Foundation tax stuff check out this blog post from @EOTaxProf.
posted by melissasaurus at 6:42 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


@ ChurchHatesTucker
For me that clip never gets old.
posted by dougzilla at 6:44 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Racism is a factor, I'd never claim it's not, but on the whole I always find Texas less racist than the rest of the South and it's certainly more diverse, and getting more so all the time.
...
For Texas, though, guns might be the most salient issue. Not having their guns taken away is a REAL sticking point with a lot of people, including people I call friends and generally respect.


If you scratch ten dudes who don't want their guns taken away and use that as an audible justification of their voting patterns, you're going to find nine racists. Deep down inside, they're afraid that The Other is going to come and take their stuff and violate their women, and the only thing stopping them is the gun they keep next to the bed. Some of them don't even admit it to themselves and are (otherwise) fundamentally decent people who probably really do have nonwhite friends, but that fear of The Other is the real sticking point for a huge majority of single-issue gun-rights voters.
posted by Etrigan at 6:48 PM on October 3, 2016 [38 favorites]


Not ...really?

Well, kinda, but not in especially flashy ways. It might be donations to your church which spends most of its spare cash on activities for regular members, or Goodwill for getting rid of stuff, or maybe a hobbyish side business where you turn a bare profit to the satisfaction of the IRS after you deduct your supplies and expenses. I know a few people who structure their year's financial decisions according to the tax breaks available -- buying rental property or farmland, installing solar panels, etc. -- but to me that just sounds exhausting.
posted by holgate at 6:48 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


There are more than 250,000 manufacturers in the United States. These firms contribute $2.17 trillion to GDP (12% of the economy).

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/BOPGTB shows our economy is bleeding out $60B per MONTH in goods trade deficit. (We have a services surplus that makes up for it somewhat)

They employ 12.3 million people and expect to employ another 3.5 million in the next decade.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MANEMP shows it was 14 million during the Truman administration

Average wage is $79,000/year

Median's gotta be a lot lower.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:50 PM on October 3, 2016


While my faith that Clinton is going to win this has not and is not wavering, I'm very depressed about the state of the U.S.A. today.

None of this is anything new, but while I want to believe that there are ways to mend some of the great cultural divide in our country but I just see it getting wider and wider. There seems to be an ever growing number of people who not only debate ideology but objective reality. How do you come to some sort of mutually beneficial consensus with people who reject the fundamentals of science, reject the idea that humans deserve fundamental rights and reject the tenants of the Constitution and even their own religion? People who believe liars and madmen before facts? Who'll point to lies and forgeries and insist they're true but examine genuine documents and insist they are forgeries?

Has there ever been an example in history of having to walk so many people back from beyond the fringes of reality? There's a whole culture of delusion in the USA who believe that we are the culture of delusion.

I have given up trying to engage with them at all - logic doesn't work, facts don't work, evidence doesn't work, even getting them to admit their own points are illogical doesn't work. Its like all of their beliefs are tied together in a ball of rubber bands - you might be able to pull one away for a moment but its going to snap right back the moment you release it.

I just don't see any way that this eventually ends in something other than catastrophe - either of the elected kind or worse.

None the less, we have to keep fighting to try and make sure progressive and moderate people get elected at every level of our government (and in years with presidential elections, too). Its just so disheartening sometimes.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:51 PM on October 3, 2016 [48 favorites]


Eight former crew members recalled that he repeatedly made lewd comments about a camerawoman he said had a nice rear, comparing her beauty to that of his daughter, Ivanka.

I didn't even know what evens were and now i'm out

I was using them up without knowing
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:53 PM on October 3, 2016 [35 favorites]


don't the rest of us also do the same thing, try to hack the tax code to get as much back as we can?

Good grief, definitely not. If only because to "hack" the tax code at this level requires the services of very expensive accountants who specialize in tax shelters and income concealment. Fudging your deductions is not only a difference of magnitude but a difference of order. Trump is availing himself of an entire infrastructure that finds the razor edge of legal and engages in very complicated gymnastics to hide and protect income, following (perhaps...) the literal and narrow letter, but definitely not the spirit, of tax law. And at a level most of us cannot imagine affording because it requires an unusual level of financial education and willingness to "innovate" in shady ways. And make no mistake, trump doesn't figure these dodges out, his hired tax lawyers do.
posted by Miko at 6:54 PM on October 3, 2016 [25 favorites]


Has there ever been an example in history of having to walk so many people back from beyond the fringes of reality? There's a whole culture of delusion in the USA who believe that we are the culture of delusion.

No, because we've never had a situation where this much delusion was publicly acknowledged. We've had no shortage of racism, sexism, hatred of "the other" defined in many ways, stubborn commitment to "this is what my grandparents did so it's good for me" throughout our history. But only recently have we had widespread, vocal acknowledgement that those aren't good, that "this is tradition" is not enough reason to stick with old habits, that the foundations of many communities was not so much kinship and mutual support, but exclusionism and mutual fear.

It had to be visible before we can fight it. We needed to have the far-left liberal educated intelligentsia see that, no really, huge portions of the country really, honestly believe that women are unfit to manage their own lives, and people with dark skin are innately more prone to crime than people with pale skin. As long as it was considered impolite to mention these things in public, the problems couldn't get fixed. I don't know if they can be fixed now - but just like BLM didn't create a problem but brought into public awareness one that had always existed, these "delusions" aren't something new, but something we're just finally seeing in communities outside of those that share them.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:00 PM on October 3, 2016 [22 favorites]


https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/BOPGTB shows our economy is bleeding out $60B per MONTH in goods trade deficit. (We have a services surplus that makes up for it somewhat)

That's not really a problem. The United States gets a free trade deficit due to the unyielding demand for dollars around the world. Our trade deficit is literally liquidity for the international economy. That's why we can run zero bound interest rates for years and pump money into the economy continuously and fail to kickstart any inflation.
posted by Talez at 7:01 PM on October 3, 2016 [14 favorites]


"Trump, the King of Shame, has covertly come to the rescue. He has shamed virtually every line-cutting group in the Deep Story—women, people of color, the disabled, immigrants, refugees. But he's hardly uttered a single bad word about unemployment insurance, food stamps, or Medicaid, or what the tea party calls "big government handouts," for anyone—including blue-collar white men."

Rest of the article here: I Spent 5 Years With Some Of Trump's Biggest Fans by Arlie Russell Hochschild
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:01 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Given that Trump's accountants are the same people who never bothered to take care of ensuring that his charity was registered with the State of New York, I do rather question their competence in general. I mean that I, a person who does not live in New York and does not have a charity, previously knew in the back of my head that New York had a bunch of special charity registration hoops that people have to jump through. I didn't know why I knew this, and I certainly don't know details, because I have no reason to know any of this, but I knew there was some kind of thing you had to do over there. So if I knew this, why the hell didn't Trump's tax lawyers and accountants, who prepared the Form 990 for the foundation every year and practice in New York and presumably should have some idea how things work over there, have any kind of a clue?
posted by zachlipton at 7:04 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


Deep down inside, they're afraid that The Other is going to come and take their stuff and violate their women, and the only thing stopping them is the gun they keep next to the bed.

A lot of the most outspoken gun owners and carriers I know are women, who want to be able to protect themselves from men.
posted by threeturtles at 7:04 PM on October 3, 2016 [10 favorites]


If you're in Florida, go vote against this if nothing else: Ballot Initiative Could Make Getting an Abortion a Capital Crime. And they have the death penalty there.

Thought I'm sure Gary "ah, leave abortion to the states,"Johnson would be a-ok with it.
posted by emjaybee at 7:06 PM on October 3, 2016 [17 favorites]


Lawrence O'Donnell: Trump's darkest secret is on line 6 of his tax return: earned income for 1995 was only 3.5 mil

Oh please tell me this is what puts Trumpkin over the edge
posted by schadenfrau at 7:08 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


...and what is a bortion?
posted by tonycpsu at 7:09 PM on October 3, 2016 [21 favorites]


20 dollars, same as in town.
posted by infinitywaltz at 7:12 PM on October 3, 2016 [11 favorites]


...and what is a bortion?

A standard portion of borscht.
posted by Talez at 7:12 PM on October 3, 2016 [21 favorites]


Are we doing a new thread for the VP debates?
posted by lkc at 7:12 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


VP debate thread will go live shortly before the debate to help avoiding filling the thread up before the thing even starts. ChurchHatesTucker has dibs.

The question is whether we can make the VP debate thread last until Sunday's debate or whether we need yet another intermediate thread.
posted by zachlipton at 7:15 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


Drew Magary: If You Vote for Trump, Then Screw You:
Earlier this week, the Washington Post’s David Fahrenthold uncovered yet another Donald Trump scam job, in which he used over $250,000 in charitable donations to help pay off his legal bills. And, because this is Trump, that sordid (and almost certainly illegal) bit of money laundering is just ONE despicable detail of the story. There are many more, including Trump’s club trying to welch on a $1 million hole-in-one payout (out of all of Trump’s bad qualities, his steadfast refusal to pay people what he owes them, while bragging about it, is the most enraging), along with the old bit about Trump blithely ignoring local ordinances so he could put a big, dipshit flagpole up at the Mar-A-Lago club, with his lawyers stating—with a straight face—that a smaller flag “would fail to appropriately express the magnitude of Donald J. Trump’s . . . patriotism” (NOTE: Until recently, Trump didn’t know what the stripes on the flag symbolized).

None of this is surprising, of course. Trump is a liar and a crook, and he commits abominable acts at such a frenetic pace that they get lost in the fury surrounding whatever horrible thing he does next. Keith Olbermann needed over 17 minutes on this site just to list a fraction of the atrocities Trump has staged during election season, and he’s gonna need 17 more minutes to cover what happens between now and Election Day. Remember when Trump said he would get rid of food regulations? That was Thursday. (Note: this was written September 21st)

Regardless, in the end, people are still gonna vote for this man. Maybe not enough to get him elected, but still: it’ll be in the tens of millions.
posted by palindromic at 7:17 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


Ah, all good. I thought it went up like an hour before or so, and having trouble catching up on the old telephone browser.
posted by lkc at 7:17 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


I got into a conversation with someone saying "well, wait a minute, don't the rest of us also do the same thing, try to hack the tax code to get as much back as we can?"

On the one hand, I kind of feel for that argument, but Trump blew it with the "That makes me smart" smugness. I mean, I get a few deductions. Know what? I take them and don't feel bad about it. They were made for me. I'm using them the way they were intended. I feel like I'm paying my fair share.

And I guess Trump could say the same thing. He didn't write the tax code, and he'd be a fool to pay over what the code said he had to. Only it doesn't quite sound the same when a self-professed billionaire is gloating about paying zero.

Rather than the I'm smart, I'm a genius schtick, he would have done a lot better to say "Well, [interviewer], what tax do you pay? 25%? Not 30? Why not? Don't you feel like 30 would be more fair? How do you know how much to pay?"

Granted, I'm happy to see him having trouble with this, and it's a bit facile to blame it all on the tax code when people like him influence what the tax code is a lot more than you and I do. But I feel like if he hadn't been such a dick about it, a lot more people could have related.
posted by ctmf at 7:18 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wait, has nobody clicked through that FL ballot initiative link yet? Because that's not actually the title. Or the content.
Florida Ballot Initiative Would Make Abortion, Birth Control Punishable by Death
“Let’s be very clear what this initiative proposes. Its supporters want to put doctors and patients in jail for life–or have them executed by the state–for accessing hormonal birth control or abortion,” said Rewire’s Vice President of Law and the Courts, Jessica Mason Pieklo.

“The idea that taking the birth control pill is the equivalent of first-degree premeditated murder would be laughably absurd if it were not so immediately dangerous to patients and providers,” said Pieklo. “And it is patently false to claim this measure wouldn’t outlaw contraception. It does [outlaw conception] with the minor exception of condoms by defining abortion so broadly as to include all forms of hormonal birth control.”
posted by instamatic at 7:19 PM on October 3, 2016 [26 favorites]


...and what is a bortion?

20 dollars, same as in town.


They closed the place in town down, so now you have to take the 5:30am bus half way across the state.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 7:23 PM on October 3, 2016 [49 favorites]


None of this is anything new, but while I want to believe that there are ways to mend some of the great cultural divide in our country but I just see it getting wider and wider.

I'm watching a documentary about Buckley and Vidal debating at the political conventions in 1968 and I would venture to say the atmosphere then was more divided.

Going back further, the civil war and the election of 1800 were also high points of polarization.

We will recover and civility will return.

I'm not sure the Republican party can survive. The right wing media and party structure have manufactured a system that rewards extremism, authoritarianism and 'truthiness'. We'll either need a revolution in the Republican party or a different party with the flexibility to build a more inclusive coalition.
posted by Emmy Noether at 7:29 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


a documentary about Buckley and Vidal debating at the political conventions in 1968

I saw that documentary!! So good.
posted by zutalors! at 7:35 PM on October 3, 2016


Ashley Feinberg at Deadspin: A Complete-ish History of of Donald Trump's Obsession With His Ideal Woman, His Own Daughter: (warning: literally nauseating, contains photos)
But even as Trump put Ivana behind him, Ivanka—the name means “little Ivana”—was blossoming in front of him. And through some unholy mixture of sexual possessiveness, narcissism, and the will to brand and commodify his own flesh and blood, Trump seemed compelled to make sure everyone noticed.

When he wasn’t talking about Ivanka directly, he was talking about her teen peers. Especially if they happened to look like Ivanka.

We’ve compiled every documented instance of Trump’s public expressions of incestuous and ephebophilic tendencies we could find. If you know of anything we missed, please let us know. We’d hate for another one of The Donald’s hilarious jokes to go overlooked.
I had heard of most of these examples in isolation, but something about seeing them compiled together, interspersed with photos, really made the tapioca rise in my gullet.
posted by palindromic at 7:37 PM on October 3, 2016 [14 favorites]


I'm not sure the Republican party can survive. The right wing media and party structure have manufactured a system that rewards extremism, authoritarianism and 'truthiness'. We'll either need a revolution in the Republican party or a different party with the flexibility to build a more inclusive coalition.

Yeah I'm not sure what we'll ever be able to do that or how even a rebirth or a new party rising from the ashes would even work in a practical sense. There's no reasonable faction ready to fill in the vacuum (which hasn't been subsumed by the extreme-right) and outside the presidency, the Republicans hold unprecedented amounts of power in state houses and have a complete lock on the House.

I'm honest to god afraid that hostile obstructionism by a gerrymandered Republican house against a wide coalition Democratic president is going to be the normal for the next generation. The Republicans can make whatever incremental rollbacks they can get away with to restore a "Father Knows Best" style society in the laboratories of democracy while obstructing as much progress as possible at the federal level.
posted by Talez at 7:38 PM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


He said some people can handle it (meaning returning from combat) and some people can't, and the people who can't need help - medical, spiritual, whatever.

Biden expressed this more strongly than I ever could, but to reiterate - what Trump said was terrible not because he intended it maliciously, but because it was completely IGNORANT about PTSD and the opposite of how anyone with any authority over our military and the VA should speak about and to those who suffer (dreadfully) from PTSD.

What he said was, there are people who are strong, and then there are other people who need help. There's strong people and people who get PTSD.

That is BULLSHIT. Being strong doesn't prevent PTSD, and having PTSD doesn't mean you're not strong, and needing and asking for help doesn't mean you're weak! This plays into the terrible stigma still associated with PTSD among a lot of the people who have it, who feel like they are weak because they got it. Who don't "admit" to having it, and so don't get the help they need, and sometimes take their own lives because of it.

The danger Trump poses to the U.S. isn't just because of his intentional racism, hatred, and malice; it's just as much because he often doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about, and yet his massive ego and privilege tells him he's perfectly qualified to spout off about whatever he feels like (see also: negotiating the U.S. debt, pulling out of NATO).
posted by sallybrown at 7:42 PM on October 3, 2016 [126 favorites]


> Jonathan Chait/Barrack Obama at New York Magazine: “Five Days That Shaped a Presidency: Barack Obama shares with Jonathan Chait a very early draft of his memoirs.”

Charles Pierce on Chait's piece: It's Not Fair to Simply Blame Sarah Palin: Our American discourse was poisoned years before her arrival.
posted by homunculus at 7:44 PM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


> I'm honest to god afraid that hostile obstructionism by a gerrymandered Republican house against a wide coalition Democratic president is going to be the normal for the next generation. The Republicans can make whatever incremental rollbacks they can get away with to restore a "Father Knows Best" style society in the laboratories of democracy while obstructing as much progress as possible at the federal level.

And because we have this fixation of it being the President's fault for everything, the Republicans will continue the self fulfilling prophecy of how incompetent the (mostly) Republican government is, so it needs more Republicans.

And the parts that aren't elected officials are just intentionally left understaffed, under funded, and positions vacant, in order to ensure that it conforms to their ideal world of (republican) Governments not serving the people and just being a waste.

Seriously, at what point do we hold them accountable for treason by way of work stoppage / slow down like tactics (which we teach to insurgents in other countries)?
posted by mrzarquon at 7:45 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


The Rude Pundit: What Fucking Decade Does Donald Trump Think This is?
posted by homunculus at 7:47 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


(see also: negotiating the U.S. debt)

The worst part is that fucking with the full faith and credit of the United States would probably be the end of US hegemony in the world economy and there would be no coming back. Best case scenario for the US, the world piles onto the Euro as a new reserve currency. Worst case scenario? China decides that week is a great time to make the Yuan fully convertible given that a USD peg is no longer useful for flooding the US with cheap imports and amassing hard currency.
posted by Talez at 7:48 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


I will read this, because I like going crazy. However, I would also love to read a piece on “The Heart of Clinton Country”. I don’t think it exists.

People who read the New Yorker don't really need to be informed about themselves.

I admit I am now curious if there are intelligent right wing publications seriously trying to solve 'the unfathomable mystery of people voting for Clinton'.
posted by srboisvert at 7:51 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


The worst part is that fucking with the full faith and credit of the United States would probably be the end of US hegemony in the world economy and there would be no coming back.

I truly think it could crash the global economy in a manner that would lead to destruction on a scale never before seen. (If he hasn't already started a nuclear war.)
posted by sallybrown at 7:52 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


For me, if Trump actually lost close to a billion dollars, it's totally legit and fair to take the deduction. It's a basic principle of our tax system that it taxes business profits.

But that's a huge loss! Huge enough that Trump is either the worst business person ever, or ginning up paper losses to evade taxes. It's such a huge loss that it's extremely suspicious, especially in the casino industry. The casino industry is often used by organized crime as a way to launder money and hide profits.
posted by chrchr at 7:52 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


The thing about trump declaring himself the brilliant genius sage of all paths to tax nirvana is that for the self-dealing and assigning income problems with the foundation, his best defense is that ignorance is a defense for those particular problems.

Kinda hard to be brilliant and ignorant at once, but no doubt he'll try.
posted by Dashy at 7:54 PM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


For clarification I was talking about a 6th grade classroom. I go from being enraged to laughing at the image of a grown adult man arguing with children about Hillary Clinton. On the other hand I shouldn't have to explain to my kid that while they should absolutely listen to their teacher on matters of safety and use of power tools; his views on Hillary Clinton are nonsense.
posted by humanfont at 7:56 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yay, I made it to the bottom and I can post No One Understands Donald Trump Like the Horny Narcissist Who Created Dilbert!
“When I observe Trump,” writes Adams, “I can see the scaffolding of his thinking process because it is close enough to my own that the patterns are obvious.” A bit later he adds, incredulously: “Do you know what flaws people most often accuse me of? Lack of empathy. And narcissism, obviously.” (He goes on to explain that, having sated all conceivable material desires, he, like Trump, is in fact driven merely by the knowledge that his “unique skill set can produce an outsized benefit for the rest of you.”)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:56 PM on October 3, 2016 [41 favorites]


Oh and 30% of the money we owe to our own government through Social Security and federal pension funds. Another not quite 40% is stuff we owe to our own citizens either through state government pensions, private pensions, 401ks, mutual funds, and private savers. Only $6T is owed overseas, a little over 30%. So even if you decided to fuck over every foreigner the US would still owe $13T to itself and its citizens.

So the largest group of people Trump is going to ask to take a haircut is going to be senior citizens mostly. The middle aged and older generation are pretty much about to wipe out themselves voting for Trump's policies. They won't know it until their SS checks get adjusted for the haircut and Trump will be ready to blame past governments for "looting" the trust fund which will be another falsehood entirely.

Jesus Christ it just keeps going on where this goes.
posted by Talez at 7:57 PM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


And I hereby put $10 on the 900M as not being his debt/loss to write off.
posted by Dashy at 7:57 PM on October 3, 2016 [22 favorites]


How often, really, do people write off enormous sums like $900M? I'd imagine the super-wealthy might write off a million or five, depending. Seems like $900M would have set off all sorts of alarms at the IRS.
posted by mochapickle at 8:00 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


You know that cliched answer people running for office when they say, "I just wanted to give something back"? I kinda wish Trump had said that somewhere along the line so we could all collectively answer, "How about you just hand over the one billion dollars and we can call it even, asshat".
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 8:00 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


And I hereby put $10 on the 900M as not being his debt/loss to write off.

I'll take that bet. Trump was leveraged to the fucking hilt for most of the '80s and '90s until he figured out he made better money licensing his name and personality.
posted by Talez at 8:00 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


From Twitter user Alan Cole:

All Net Operating Losses in 1995: $49.331 billion. [source]
NOL taken by @realDonaldTrump in 1995: $916 million. [source: Marla!]
Trump was 1.9% of the US total.

He's a giant LEECH hanging on to our nation's leg.

[see Cole's follow up to this tweet for a number of his answers to questions about comparing these figures]
posted by sallybrown at 8:00 PM on October 3, 2016 [26 favorites]


Ah! The VP debates are tomorrow! Ok, I had it in my head they were on Monday again. I was wondering why y'all were betting so nonchalant!
posted by lkc at 8:03 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


How often, really, do people write off enormous sums like $900M? I'd imagine the super-wealthy might write off a million or five, depending. Seems like $900M would have set off all sorts of alarms at the IRS.

The fact that the figure didn't even fit on the forms speaks volumes.
posted by sallybrown at 8:03 PM on October 3, 2016 [22 favorites]


MACARTHUR: I shall return.

TRUMP: No, no, you’re telling the enemy everything you want to do.
posted by ckape at 8:06 PM on October 3, 2016 [26 favorites]


Annie Donahue, a former waitress at the Trump National Golf Club, on Instagram:
10 years ago I was working in the restaurant at Donald Trump's golf course, the one mentioned in this article. It's located about 5 minutes from where I grew up. I worked there before he bought the place and continued to work there after. I brought him his eggs for breakfast and his favorite clam chowder for lunch countless times. Somehow I passed for being attractive enough to wait on him. I know I wasn't his first choice and I wasn't his type. He didn't make me stand there while he put his arm around me and made the other men at the table tell me how beautiful I was like he did to my friend. I didn't get sent home or not scheduled for work on the day's when he was visiting the property, but plenty of my female coworkers did. I was in my mid 20's at the time and I could tell that was pushing it for being able to be in The Donald's presence. He wanted to see girls still in their teens, the thinner and prettier the better. If you didn't match this you could expect to not be scheduled, you could expect to be in line for getting fired.
posted by sallybrown at 8:07 PM on October 3, 2016 [59 favorites]


I want to emphasize this point. It is not at all unconstitutional. I'm a state employee and cannot openly campaign using my university email, or claim to represent the institution, but I absolutely am not prohibited from expressing my political opinions, even to students.

An important difference is that if they don't like what you're saying for whatever reason, your students can just get up and walk away. Primary and secondary students are legally forbidden from doing so and will be punished by the State if they do.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:07 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


Marla Maples update: she appears to have enjoyed the Clinton shimmy.
posted by sallybrown at 8:11 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


Marla also re-posted her pumpkin patch tweet this afternoon, "ICYMI"...wink wink.
posted by sallybrown at 8:15 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


My husband owned a business for a time in the early aughts. Our accountant gave him a talking to the first year he operated at a profit and complained that he wasn't getting a refund. He told my husband that paying taxes was a good thing. It means you're making money.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:20 PM on October 3, 2016 [19 favorites]


Wow, that pumpkin patch/kabalah/Adam&Eve code is just going straight over my head.
posted by Emmy Noether at 8:23 PM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


As a small aside, "Trump" has now replaced "Toot" as the term of art for flatulence in the household, e.g. "Oh god, who Trumped in here?"
posted by leotrotsky at 8:25 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


(He goes on to explain that, having sated all conceivable material desires, he ...
... devotes his time to cataloging his grievences and stroking his own ego. Sad!
posted by octobersurprise at 8:29 PM on October 3, 2016 [5 favorites]


I go from being enraged to laughing at the image of a grown adult man arguing with children about Hillary Clinton.

Do you remember that video from a while back with the little girl at Disney World arguing with Gaston? This is how I am imagining this interaction.
posted by supercrayon at 8:34 PM on October 3, 2016 [6 favorites]


People are never going to stop commenting as if they are channeling a Trump tweet are they?

Just follow up the occasional sentence with Sad! and you perfected sarcasm and mocking.
posted by vuron at 8:34 PM on October 3, 2016 [2 favorites]


A throwback from the infamous 1994 Vanity Fair article in which he compared VD to Vietnam (which also featured an anecdote about Michael Bolton trying to steal Marla Maples away after a breakup in which Trump says he "left her like a dog"):
Trump nibbled from the buffet, then went into the study and presented himself to Carol Schuler, a professional tarot-card reader, who had been hired for the evening.

“How is his marriage going to work out?” I kibitzed from the sideline.

“O.K. with you if I answer?” the reader asked Trump.

“Uh, I guess so,” he said nervously.

Schuler threw a card on the table and said, “It shows imbalance in the relationship. You need to compromise more.”

Trump was clearly not pleased. The tarot reader threw another card.

“This shows it’s important to include each other in decisions,” she said. “She’s very protective. She’s there when you need her.”

“Will I have more children?” Trump asked with genuine curiosity.

“Yes, and the next one’s going to be a boy.* And this changes your entire life.”

“Will business continue to do well?”

“This is another question that isn’t black-and-white,” she said, considering a new card. I watched as Trump seemed to sink under the weight of her words. “There is growth, but slower than you’d like it to be. You have some difficult cards here. Don’t take on more than you can handle.” . . .

I then asked him what he had learned from his brush with financial death, and the painful experience of being shunned by the world when he was down.

“I have friends who can have war with someone and then go back and be best friends,” he said. “I can’t be that way…. You have to remember who the loyal ones were and who were not, and if you don’t, you’re a total schmuck. And if I have a chance to hurt these people who weren’t loyal to me, I will. Call that vindictive. Call it what you will…. People who wouldn’t talk to me three years ago now call up and want to kiss my ass. I tell my secretary, ‘Rhona, call them back and say, “Mr. Trump told me to tell you, ‘Fuck you!’ ” then hang up.’ ”
*True: Barron. (Tiffany was a newborn at the time.)
posted by sallybrown at 8:42 PM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


Our trade deficit is literally liquidity for the international economy.

yes and no

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_position
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:43 PM on October 3, 2016


Well, they had less to work with and had to try harder, that's for sure.
posted by Artw at 8:47 PM on October 3, 2016 [9 favorites]


Annie Donahue, a former waitress at the Trump National Golf Club, on Instagram:

I just realized I worked for a small town Trump. o.O
So many similarities it's uncanny.

4 years ago times were tough and I took a waitressing job at a place in town that did not have a good rep with treating it's staff. It was my only choice but hey I thought I can hack it.

I lasted three months. I started losing weight because of all the activity and the owner constantly talked about it. Things like how much better I was looking and wow in a few months you'll be so much prettier. He hired another waitress after a month who immediately started getting all of the best shifts. I complained and got told that she was just a better waitress. The cook told me that the skinny and whoever he thought looked the prettiest got those shifts because they made him more money. The cook had been there for a year and said the only reason he stayed was because he needed some immigration thing to go through then he was outta there.

The guy was sexist, arrogant, thought he was the smartest guy ever even though his business was failing big time. He had all sorts of big plans to build onto his restaurant/motel and was constantly saying he was getting investors. He yelled at customers he didn't like, made bigotted comments about non-white tourist and he HATED when a woman showed him he was wrong or was smarter then he was.

Anyways the American election was 2 weeks before I quit. The day before voting day I found myself in a political 'discussion' where he insisted that Romney would win. I said no Obama has it, just have to look at the polls. But hey what did I know? He said point blank that there was just no way I knew better. He also called me a barbarian and insisted that my barbarian viewpoint was going to die out when people finally came back around to how things should be. He was really mad at me. Mad to the point where the cook was worried for my safety.

So Obama won. Came in the next day and owner wasn't there. The Cook said that during breakfast he ranted at some regulars about Obama and left the restaurant. We had to call his wife to close up because no one knew where he was. He didn't show up until the next afternoon. At this point I was at the give no fucks stage about this job and said 'Isn't it great Obama won! I was right!' Guy didn't talk to me for three days.

Yep he was a Trump.
posted by Jalliah at 8:54 PM on October 3, 2016 [46 favorites]


I thought McKinnon's Clinton was practically a loving tribute. Playing up her quirks only serves to humanize her, something she could really use among a certain segment of the population.

The awkwardness of bringing up Alicia Machado, which SNL played up beautifully, was notable because it was such an obviously set trap, but Trump walked right into it anyway. If that trap were any more obvious, Admiral Ackbar would have appeared out of nowhere just to warn him about it.
posted by 0xFCAF at 8:57 PM on October 3, 2016 [46 favorites]


I agree: That author is totally off. McKinnon's Clinton is pretty great, especially the voice. I think McKinnon understands that Hillary is genuinely both ambitious and relatable, and how Hillary is stuck in the tricky position of conveying her relatability and her progressive mission behind her ambition to a populace that's largely determined to resist her.

I got the sense that McKinnon genuinely likes Hillary, and Baldwin genuinely despises Trump.
posted by mochapickle at 8:58 PM on October 3, 2016 [25 favorites]


The only thing that would be better than Marla Maples (hypothetically!) releasing Donald's old tax returns to destroy his reputation as a successful self-made businessman, in the process getting the first woman elected to the office of President of the United States, would be if afterward, NBC gave Maples her own TV show. And its ratings were double those of The Apprentice.

Oh and then Tiffany says "You're fired!" to Donald three times on nationally broadcast live television and he melts into a smoking orange puddle and no one ever has to hear from or think about him ever again, and the collective racist dementia that has gripped our nation vanishes, like a spell is lifted, and we celebrate the anniversary of that day every year thereafter with huge meals and drunken parties in which we celebrate the diversity of our country and its people, like a less-genocidal, more inclusive Thanksgiving.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 8:59 PM on October 3, 2016 [54 favorites]


Tonight, Clinton tweeted out her extremely powerful ad about veterans (originally released 9/16 but got a bit buried with a number of other ads), featuring Joel Sollender, a World War II veteran and former POW of the Nazis. Bring kleenex.

Sollender says:
Something that didn’t make it into the short clip, Sollender said, was his fear at the time that the Germans would discover that he was Jewish. “As a prisoner of war, and being Jewish, I had some concerns about my dog tags, which were obviously marked ‘H’ for Hebrew,” he recounted. “But they never looked at them. I had blond hair and blue eyes and spoke a little German, so it helped me along.”

“I was a pretty lucky guy to do what I did and get away with it,” he continued, “and come home safely and have a more or less charmed life ever since.”

Sollender has been so vociferous this election because he has been deeply disturbed by the dark resonances he has perceived accompanying Trump’s ascent. For reference, he pointed to Sinclair Lewis’ 1935 novel, It Can’t Happen Here, which chronicles the rise of a fascist demagogue to the presidency of the United States. “There are indications that it could happen here,” he said, “and I’ll do whatever I can to stop it.”
posted by sallybrown at 9:00 PM on October 3, 2016 [54 favorites]


Oh and then Tiffany says "You're fired!" to Donald three times on nationally broadcast live television and he melts into a smoking orange puddle and no one ever has to hear from or think about him ever again, and the collective racist dementia that has gripped our nation vanishes, like a spell is lifted, and we celebrate the anniversary of that day every year thereafter with huge meals and drunken parties in which we celebrate the diversity of our country and its people, like a less-genocidal, more inclusive Thanksgiving.

Trumplestiltskin! Trumplestiltskin! Trumplestiltskin!
posted by sallybrown at 9:02 PM on October 3, 2016 [11 favorites]


I thought McKinnon's Clinton was practically a loving tribute.

I pretty often go and watch Clinton and "Val" which I think is peak awesome Clinton.

"Why won't the people just let me lead? Just give me the hammer and the nails and let me fix it all!?"
posted by Deoridhe at 9:11 PM on October 3, 2016 [40 favorites]


If you aren't voting because it "doesn't matter" then you do not deserve civilization and you can never again be angry or express an opinion about anything, because you have demonstrated that you have nothing to contribute and no skin in the game when it comes to human society.
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:14 PM on October 3, 2016 [14 favorites]


On the other hand I shouldn't have to explain to my kid that while they should absolutely listen to their teacher on matters of safety and use of power tools; his views on Hillary Clinton are nonsense.

No, actually, I mean. When I was six or so my mom sat me down and told me the DARE program in my school was going to give me a lot of misinformation, but it would be impolite to disrupt class by saying so. I have no idea what this did to my development (to be told that these authority figures were full of shit) but honestly it seems like a normal part of life.

When I was in 10th grade, the debate club teacher had us watch a 9/11 truther documentary.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 9:15 PM on October 3, 2016 [8 favorites]


I agree: That author is totally off. McKinnon's Clinton is pretty great, especially the voice.

Yeahbut, I muted Weekend Update after about a minute, or, equivalently, after about their tenth "Ugh both these people are so terrible" bit.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:19 PM on October 3, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yeah, Weekend Update was the worst.

And there was a bit in Margot Robbie's monologue where she says about the election: "It's nuts! Everybody just lies, it's crazy." And I'm thinking maybe she didn't mean everybody-everybody but it sounds like she's saying everybody-everybody across the board.
posted by mochapickle at 9:25 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


The UK isn't Pakistan. Pakistan isn't really an ally, just a frenemy. And its choices were basically to either pretend that it's okay with limited air strikes and incursions by the US, which it halfway actually is depending on who's getting blown up that day, or to have its capacity for air defense destroyed and then have the limited air strikes and incursions happen anyway.

*takes deep breath*

So, it's not that I disagree with this characterization, per se. BUT *takes another deep breath*:

1. I think it's really problematic to think of this as a normal or acceptable state of affairs.
2. There's a weird contradiction in the equality implied by 'frenemy' and the massive power asymmetry that leads to the US being able to do essentially whatever it wants in Pakistan.
3. This attitude reads as very very condescending to my Pakistani ear and underscores for me why it is that so many Pakistanis so admire(d) the Irani government's vocal and practical defiance of Uncle Sam.
posted by bardophile at 9:31 PM on October 3, 2016 [27 favorites]


I think McKinnon got Conway down pat, duckspeaking how she duckspeaks; her Clinton is more impressionistic, more exasperation-translator.
posted by holgate at 9:36 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


Also I should note additional triggering criteria related to my kid's recent teacher bullshit and my own emotionl baggage. As a child I was a democrat in a red state and this was hard. As a boy I was drafted to be Ferarro for our mock debate / class election after losing a coin toss with the other democrat in the class (also boy) who got to play Mondale meanwhile some super popular kids got to basically tease me as Reagan/Bush. I was called Geraldine for weeks afterwards. Later when I was in the tenth grade I got beat up by a jock for supporting Dukakis. He pinned me down and choked me until I passed out. Teachers didn't do shit.

Now this shop teacher is giving my kid shit. Honestly I have no idea what to do. The adrenaline surge I'm feeling is not supportive of good decision making.
posted by humanfont at 9:43 PM on October 3, 2016 [23 favorites]


And I hereby put $10 on the 900M as not being his debt/loss to write off.

I'll take that bet. Trump was leveraged to the fucking hilt for most of the '80s and '90s until he figured out he made better money licensing his name and personality.


You might want to reconsider that bet. And therein lies the mystery. Leveraged means Trump borrowed the money for his investments. The borrower, Trump, can't claim a loss on borrowed money. It's the lender that claims a loss. Trump can only claim a loss on his own invested money.

One of the big loopholes in the tax code is the use of real estate depreciation to create losses. Still, it's hard to imagine how Trump could have generated a billion dollars in depreciation. The billion dollar loss is suspect without revealing the supporting documentation.
posted by JackFlash at 9:45 PM on October 3, 2016 [13 favorites]


I don't even trust Trump enough to lose a billion dollars :P
posted by mazola at 9:49 PM on October 3, 2016 [14 favorites]


Now this shop teacher is giving my kid shit. Honestly I have no idea what to do. The adrenaline surge I'm feeling is not supportive of good decision making.

Well, we could debate all day whether it's legal or constitutional, but you could certainly complain to the principal and tell them you're uncomfortable with them bringing politics into the classroom, especially in an election year when one of the parties is promoting an openly racist and misogynist candidate.
posted by mmoncur at 10:05 PM on October 3, 2016 [16 favorites]


1. I think it's really problematic to think of this as a normal or acceptable state of affairs.

I'd never claim that it's moral. Only, maybe, that it's "normal" insofar as great powers kicking around regional powers is historically commonplace.

2. There's a weird contradiction in the equality implied by 'frenemy' and the massive power asymmetry that leads to the US being able to do essentially whatever it wants in Pakistan.

That's a fair cop. I should have just said that Pakistan is not an ally of the US, though the two (or just factions within them) can act together when it suits them.

3. This attitude reads as very very condescending to my Pakistani ear and underscores for me why it is that so many Pakistanis so admire(d) the Irani government's vocal and practical defiance of Uncle Sam.

Getting kicked around by a great power sucks, so the attitude you're describing seems very understandable and reasonable to me. I would agree that it's entirely possible that the US acting in the way that it has been provokes enough entirely reasonable enmity that it runs counter to the long-term interests of the US.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:19 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


TPM article, Mark Cuban: Trump’s Business Losses Could ‘Easily Be A Tax Shelter’, has this CNN interview embedded, Mark Cuban: We don't know if Trump used a tax shelter
Definitely worth checking out.
posted by dougzilla at 10:22 PM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


I really didn't want to have a reason to like Mark Cuban, but I guess I have to say I am indeed starting to like him.
posted by Quonab at 10:31 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mod note: One deleted. We really can't get more deeply into analyzing Pakistan-US relations in this thread; too big a topic to fit into this thread.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:31 PM on October 3, 2016


For reference, he pointed to Sinclair Lewis’ 1935 novel, It Can’t Happen Here, which chronicles the rise of a fascist demagogue to the presidency of the United States.

Which book, not coincidentally, is currently being presented as an adaptation at Berkeley Repertory Theater, and I saw it last weekend. It's not an amazing piece of theater, but it's a competent production, and the story is sadly believable.
posted by suelac at 10:52 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm seeing it at Berkeley Rep in a couple of weeks (actually, I had tickets to see it this Sunday, but exchanged them because debate). I'm afraid I won't have enough evens for it though.
posted by zachlipton at 11:03 PM on October 3, 2016




I pretty often go and watch Clinton and "Val" which I think is peak awesome Clinton.

"Val"'s impression of Trump is kind of cute, and I absolutely love the way she answers "Clinton"'s "I wish you could be president" with "Me too!"
posted by kirkaracha at 11:13 PM on October 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump says ‘race riots’ are happening every month:
“We’re a divided nation, and each week it seems we’re getting more and more divided,” Trump said at a rally here. “[We see] race riots on our streets on a monthly basis. Somebody said don’t call them race riots, but that’s what they are. They’re race riots. And it’s happening more and more.”
posted by kirkaracha at 11:33 PM on October 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


Who said "don't call them race riots," Donald? Was it somebody from your campaign? Yeah, they sure don't know what they're talking about. You just keep doing you. You got this, Donald.
posted by Weeping_angel at 11:42 PM on October 3, 2016 [17 favorites]


Now this shop teacher is giving my kid shit. Honestly I have no idea what to do.

File a complaint. Public school teachers have the right to hold political opinions and even, often, to express them--but not to proselytize (so to speak) to students on behalf of those opinions.
posted by dersins at 11:51 PM on October 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


Buzzfeed: Paul Ryan, So Handsome, So Sad: "He wishes someone else could take the cup from him … I’d say ‘weary martyr’ is a good way to describe him."
posted by zachlipton at 12:02 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Kevin Plantz (@KevinPlantz):
.@realDonaldTrump As a Veteran with PTSD, I'm stronger than you could ever be.
posted by salix at 12:52 AM on October 4, 2016 [28 favorites]


Wasn't the Wikileaks announcement supposed to be 53 minutes ago? I don't see anything.
posted by msalt at 12:53 AM on October 4, 2016


The Wikileaks thing was delayed a bit, its starting any minute now.
posted by Justinian at 1:07 AM on October 4, 2016


The big surprise appears to be a wikileaks infomercial
posted by crashlanding at 1:20 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I wonder where they learned the whole "promise a big announcement, get everyone to pay attention, then conduct an endless infomercial" tactic from?
posted by zachlipton at 1:24 AM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


Yeah so far its a bunch of wikileaks sitting around jerking eachother off.
posted by Justinian at 1:34 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hahaha, yeah everyone got trolled. Assange just said that he knows there is tremendous expectation in the United States but that if they had a major release concerning the USA they wouldn't be releasing it at 3:00am.
posted by Justinian at 2:13 AM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Of course not, he wouldn't do anything at 3AM that might interrupt his pal Donald's tweets.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:25 AM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Wikirolled!

Well, at least it was a surprise.
posted by valetta at 2:26 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Maybe it was going to be the "Hillary commenting on Millenials" nothingburger that got shopped around to the anti-Hillary press, but then other people released it first and they are just trying to save face now.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 2:29 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Do we still get a tour of the Assange hotel?
posted by SpiffyRob at 2:30 AM on October 4, 2016 [26 favorites]


You'd think the Russians would have something for their catspaws to broadcast.
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:30 AM on October 4, 2016


Whose face are they saving? They're in it for the lulz.
posted by spitbull at 2:30 AM on October 4, 2016


Well, HuffPo has gone ahead and tempted the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing.
posted by mmoncur at 2:34 AM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Pssst Ecuador...

Throw the bum out.
posted by Yowser at 2:43 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Intercepted 2012 email From Hillary Clinton to Huma Abedin, translated from simple replacement cipher:

B-E-S-U-R-E-T-O-R-E-A-D-Y-O-U-R-W-I-K-I-L-E-A-K-S
posted by condour75 at 3:08 AM on October 4, 2016 [35 favorites]


I made the mistake of just watching Morning Joe. Mika just equated Trumps 900 million problem to Clinton getting money for speeches.
posted by johnpowell at 3:20 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Morning Joe has more heel turns than a wrestling show.
posted by Yowser at 3:30 AM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Seems reasonable. She didn't give those speeches. She kept losing them over an extended period.
posted by vbfg at 3:30 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wikileaks founder Julian Assange said on Tuesday the organization would publish around one million documents related to three governments and the U.S. election before the end of the year.

LOL, OK.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:38 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Assange denied that the release of documents related to the U.S. election was specifically geared to damage Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, and said he had been misquoted in that regard. -- Reuters
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 3:41 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


New Franklin and Marshall Poll (pdf) showing Clinton up 47 to 38 in PA.

Interesting details in the appendix about my area down here in SW PA:
Allegheny County: Clinton 64%, Trump 27%, Johnson 2%
Southwest PA: Clinton 26%, Trump 52%, Johnson 7%

So the urban/suburban areas of SW PA, are landslide Clinton territory but the rural areas around them are just the opposite. I knew that there was a split but I didn't realize that it was so dramatic. Good thing that so few people still live in rural PA or the state numbers would be vastly different.
posted by octothorpe at 3:49 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Assange denied that the release of documents related to the U.S. election was specifically geared to damage Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, and said he had been misquoted in that regard. -- Reuters

Oh WHAT EVERRR
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:52 AM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Assange's December Surprise.
posted by Devonian at 3:56 AM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wikileaks Big October Suprise is Absolutely Nothing

I gather that /r/the_donald and infowars are absolutely blowing up. Alex Jones accuses Assange of being a Clinton plant.
posted by humanfont at 4:00 AM on October 4, 2016 [26 favorites]


hahahahahaha oh that's so great

Just emphasizes that there's no dirt on Clinton. I love it.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 4:10 AM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Assange: "Wolf!"
posted by GhostintheMachine at 4:19 AM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Wait, I don't...get it? Was he delaying hoping something big would come in? Was he scooped and now he's trying to cover? Is he seriously trying to pull off "in fear of his life"? This makes no sense.
posted by instamatic at 4:19 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Let him among us that hasn't hyped a big release only to rickroll the media for 90 minutes of self-promotion cast the first stone.
posted by 0xFCAF at 4:19 AM on October 4, 2016 [36 favorites]


Speaking of perfectly-timed bombshells...
@davidsirota: BREAKING: Docs show casino lobbying firms funneled huge cash directly to Pence campaign as Pence backed casino bills
Article here.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:23 AM on October 4, 2016 [61 favorites]


Nothing burger! ALL THE NOTHING BURGERS

Burgers of nothingness, they've got em

OMG I need sleep
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 4:29 AM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wait, so Pence has the successful owners of casinos backing him up as well as Trump? That's like both wings of the successful/unsuccessful casino owners alliance; they can coordinate and catch Hillary in a pincer attack!

She's doomed! Doomed I tell you!

:Kermit exits, flailing, pursued by bear:
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:35 AM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


A post by someone named Josh Adler is making the rounds on Facebook - it's a post by the grandson of a contractor that did a lot of work for Trump over the years, and it was written in response to Trump's retort that maybe the reason he didn't pay people was because "they didn't do a good job."

I've shared it myself. Some of the telling quotes:
My grandfather's company was one of the numerous contractors that Donald Trump refused or was unable to pay in full for their work. "Unable" because of Trump's mismanagement and over-leverage, not because he had some kind of ex post facto savvy for retrading his contracts. The payment failures were not because of poor performance -- Trump repeatedly hired my grandfather's company for every project that Trump developed in Atlantic City, as did every other casino developer in Atlantic City. What I heard growing up was that it was Trump's well-known practice not to pay final bills and then dare his contractors to sue. Most couldn't afford the fight, and most didn't obtain lien rights because they needed the work too badly too fight that hard on the contracts.

My grandfather, who was responsible for negotiating contracts face-to-face with Trump for at least a decade (and had a number of choice anecdotes about Trump that I will not share tonight), therefore insisted on mechanics lien rights on their jobs. His company had essential, specific expertise Trump needed, and Trump blustered and threatened but caved in when my grandfather walked out. On Trump's final project, when Trump could not pay the bill, he begged them to release their lien at a discount or else he would go bankrupt and pay them nothing. It was indeed true that he could not afford to pay the bill and would be forced into bankruptcy if they did not release the lien. They checked. There was no concern about the quality of work. To my knowledge, he never alleged that the work was bad nor could he have -- they were one of the essential prime contractors for every casino he or anyone built in A.C. Preferring something to nothing, they agreed to discount the payment and release the lien. He then reneged on the new discounted deal, and soon went bankrupt anyway. Nonetheless, they were paid a larger share of what they were owed than most others were, because he couldn't open the casino without the lien released.

[ ...]

If Trump hired so many thousands of contractors whom he didn't pay because, somehow, they all did such bad jobs for him, again, and again, and again, bad architects, bad drapers, bad plumbers, doesn't that just say he must be terrible at hiring people? Fool me twice... you can't fool me... but fool me thousands of times? After all, there must be SOME capable American workers out there (though I doubt very many of his workers were American.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:41 AM on October 4, 2016 [97 favorites]


Okay, that Franklin and Marshall poll, someone help me not despair for humanity over figure 2 on page 6. What the fuck is up with numbers in the teens and twenties on all measures of "Will this person be a good, competent President?" in the same poll where 38% of these same people are voting for this dude for the office of President??? I mean, I am pretty sure i know what the reason is, but dear god. "I think the other candidate would be a better, more competent, more effective President buuuut nah. Wrong pronoun and letter next to her name. Let's focus on what really matters for the country: patriarchy and partisanship. "
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:43 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


:Kermit exits, flailing, pursued by bear:

It's ok; the bear is Fozzie and he's not at scary at all. But I'm pretty sure he & America's Dad Tim Kaine have the same book of corny jokes. I hope we hear some tonight.
posted by pointystick at 4:52 AM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Let him among us that hasn't hyped a big release only to rickroll the media for 90 minutes of self-promotion cast the first stone.
posted by 0xFCAF at 6:19 on October 4


*backs up dump truck full of rocks*
posted by strange chain at 4:54 AM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Oh my goodness. It feels so weird to say this, but reading /r/The_Donald right now is a supremely delightful experience. THEY ARE SO HURT AND ANGRY I LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT
posted by rorgy at 5:06 AM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


Is there anyplace that distills the alt-right butthurt into concentrated schadenfreude so I don't have to actually visit that page?
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:28 AM on October 4, 2016 [29 favorites]


EmpressCallipygos: "it's a post by the grandson of a contractor that did a lot of work for Trump over the years, and it was written in response to Trump's retort that maybe the reason he didn't pay people was because "they didn't do a good job.""

Reading this I realized I've worked for a mini-Trump. Back when my father and I were doing service work we had a client who owned many of the apartment buildings in town (several hundred units). She was really hands on; every month we'd meet with her over breakfast or lunch and go over the invoices for the work we'd done in the last month. And every month she'd pick out about 10% of the invoices and just refuse to pay. No reason or pattern I cold detect, it was seemingly at random. My father used to just smile and agree.

Now my father wasn't the sort who would normally be calm about being ripped off this way. And seeing how this was both a small but significant part of our business and no one else would work for her (because she demanded this unilateral discount) I was a little confused why we put up with it. I'd have been "Look pay us or we aren't going to work for you in the future". But he didn't say anything like that and we kept doing work for her.

When I got around to asking my father about it he explained that he charged her a larger markup on material and a higher per hour rate on labour than other clients. Worked out to a 20-25% surcharge verses other clients. The net result was the client was happy because she thought she was ripping us off and we were happy because she was actually paying us a 15+% bonus for dealing with her attempts to rip us off.
posted by Mitheral at 5:28 AM on October 4, 2016 [155 favorites]


What the fuck is up with numbers in the teens and twenties on all measures of "Will this person be a good, competent President?" in the same poll where 38% of these same people are voting for this dude for the office of President???

The first number is the crazification factor, the second includes the groups who are voting to keep the supreme court conservative and trust that Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell and Mike Pence will actually be running the show.
posted by Emmy Noether at 5:29 AM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


So last night, Kelly Ayotte called Trump a role model in the New Hampshire Senate debates.

Later that night, she realized how fucking stupid that was, and then tried to take it back.
posted by Talez at 5:39 AM on October 4, 2016 [28 favorites]


I enjoy watching Kelly Ayotte try to find a way out of the double bind she's in.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:44 AM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I would love to hear Kelly Ayotte speak for 45 seconds on why she thinks Hillary Clinton isn't a good role model.

Actually, I wouldn't, because then I'd be vomiting uncontrollably.
posted by 0xFCAF at 5:51 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh my goodness. It feels so weird to say this, but reading /r/The_Donald right now is a supremely delightful experience. THEY ARE SO HURT AND ANGRY I LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT

There's a certain kind of poetry to how the comments sort in that sub. Not by top (my default) or best (site default), but by new. Whoever has shouted most recently gets the attention, damn whatever comments have had the most support.
posted by phunniemee at 5:58 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's interesting to see how the Republican party is so terrified of their base and the possibility of being primaried for being unfaithful that they are completely unable to run against Trump when all reason and most polling would suggest that if you are an endangered Senator or Representative your best bet would actually be actively running against Cheetoh Jesus because you are a "Maverick" and you are post-partisan.
posted by vuron at 5:59 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]



Is there anyplace that distills the alt-right butthurt into concentrated schadenfreude so I don't have to actually visit that page?


EnoughTrumpSpam over at Reddit does a good job shitposting about Trump and Milo and the rest of the gang. And is quite gleeful about it.

If you'd like your schadenfreude distilled into a single photograph... TFW all your hopes and dreams are crushed at 3 am (via)

This one might be even better.
posted by honestcoyote at 5:59 AM on October 4, 2016 [41 favorites]


I made the mistake of just watching Morning Joe. Mika just equated Trumps 900 million problem to Clinton getting money for speeches.

The Morning Joe Crew Finds the Real Trump Tax Villain: Hillary Clinton
I just got through telling you that I don't believe the tax story is necessarily a devastating blow to the Donald Trump campaign -- and now along comes the Morning Joe crew to proclaim that, yes, Trump is killing it, because his tax response is so darn authentic, while Hillary Clinton is secretive and corrupt and therefore is the real villain in this morality play.

I wish I were making this up. Just watch. A complete transcript is below.
[...]

BRZEZINSKI: -- and there's one that keeps kind of doing this thing that penetrates the ether. The people are hearing -- they feel -- the truth from Donald Trump.

BARNICLE: And that is on Secretary Clinton, that she hasn't told us, really, where she wants to go, where she wants to take us.

BRZEZINSKI: Right, and I think the reaction to this New York Times story on Donald Trump's part was brilliant. And the thing is, he didn't even think twice about it. He just went there, while she has been hiding this speech money, hiding this foundation stuff, hiding this email stuff, and trying to get around it, "mistakes were made," and I'm telling you, people don't -- they are not feeling a complete connection with her. And this doesn't help, to get all high and mighty. Get off your high horse about this tax thing. Unless laws were broken, it's not an issue. You guys cancel each other out.
Morning Joke.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:06 AM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Headline in Fox News: WikiLeaks' 'October Surprise' fails; Assange promises more to come

More failure? That was Fox News' headline.
posted by msalt at 6:10 AM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Wikikeaks, condensed.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:17 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


The current Fox News headline is WIKI-WEAK: Julian Assange's wee-hours appearance brings no 'October Surprise' despite hype and I could not be happier with this Tuesday goddamn morning.
posted by rorgy at 6:26 AM on October 4, 2016 [29 favorites]


never have I been made happier by a self-important man's inability to keep himself from trying to seem like an All-Important Edgelord at the expense of a national election newscycle

plus I like how Assange has sort of let himself go a bit and now looks less Cyberpunk and more Uncle Dressing Cyberpunk For The Local Comic Con
posted by rorgy at 6:29 AM on October 4, 2016 [25 favorites]


Apologies for linking to a tweet, but there's some interesting stuff in this poll about enthusiasm among Trump and Clinton's supporters. The percentage of Trump supporters who say they're "very enthusiastic" is down slightly from September, from 48% to 46%. The percentage of Clinton voters who say they're "very enthusiastic" about their candidate is up pretty sharply in the same time period, from 39% to 46%. Trump and Clinton now have pretty much identical enthusiasm numbers, with Clinton's slightly better than Trump's. The enthusiasm numbers for third-party candidates are very low, which suggests that they may not vote at all.

This is very good news for Clinton, I think. Let's up the trend keeps going the way it's going.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:30 AM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


Tuesday polls-
Rasmussen - Clinton +1
NBC - Clinton +5
F&M (PA) - Clinton +9
F&M (PA Sen) - McGinty +6

Even Rasmussen has Clinton up
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:31 AM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Docs show casino lobbying firms funneled huge cash directly to Pence campaign as Pence backed casino bills

Well, at least someone on that ticket made money from casinos.
posted by Etrigan at 6:32 AM on October 4, 2016 [34 favorites]


Even Rasmussen has Clinton up

And Princeton's Sam Wang puts Clinton's win probability at random drift 84%, Bayesian 90%, with a prediction of 315 EVs.

The Senate prediction is back to tied at 50 all, after a few days 51 for Republicans, too.
posted by Gelatin at 6:36 AM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


McGinty +6

FUCK yes
posted by rorgy at 6:36 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump's Tax Records Show He May Have Understated His Salary by Millions to the IRS.
It doesn’t seem to add up. Just one example of where Trump’s tax returns seem to conflict with reality: the Republican presidential candidate told the IRS and New York state tax officials that he collected a mere $6,108 in “wages, salaries, tips, etc.” in 1995. Yet, according to financial reports filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission, that same year Trump received $583,333 in compensation from the then-named Trump Hotels & Casino Resorts, the company Trump had taken public in the middle of that year. The figure comes from a proxy statement that the company filed in early 1996. The payment is clearly listed as salary for 1995, and it appears to have been paid directly from the company to Trump, and not through one of the corporate entities he controls.
Holy shit. This is just the gift that keeps on giving.
posted by Talez at 6:39 AM on October 4, 2016 [83 favorites]


Mika looked at Lawrence O'Donnell with pure disgust this morning when he continued to bring up Trump's PTSD comments.Then they ridiculed him after he left for bringing up the fact that Trump's earnings were "only" about 3 and a quarter million in 1995.

They are gross people but sort of laughably gross.
posted by zutalors! at 6:42 AM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Update from the front lines! A friend of mine just emailed (hi Rich. Stop lurking and come register an account) to say he's been phone-banking for Hilary in Wisconsin. Reading the election threads here was enough to inspire him to go out and volunteer! We're not just screaming into the abyss!

Regarding logistics, he says:
They can always use more phone bankers/canvassers, but they also need people to do data entry work and people popping in with food/beverages are always greatly appreciated (caffeinated beverages always a plus, I try and bring a 12 pack of diet coke or something every time I go). People working and volunteering are really nice and there are all ages, from people still in high school to retirees.
I had not considered the supply-lines element of campaign offices, but I definitely remember being 19 and a dirt poor college student working 90 hours a week in a remote office in early 2004, and eating a lot of Top Ramen and Kraft dinner because we just scrounged whatever was in the office in between phone calls. So even if you can't swing the time to go knocking on doors or calling people, let's try to keep local offices stocked and caffeinated! Diet Coke for the Diet Coke gods!
posted by Mayor West at 6:44 AM on October 4, 2016 [34 favorites]


One of the things I found really inspiring when I first volunteered to do data entry was the Girl Scout troop who were phonebanking. It was really cool to see middle school-aged kids engaged in politics like that.
posted by pxe2000 at 6:46 AM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


HuffPo Trump Gave 10 Times The Personal Max To Florida Attorney General
Donald Trump gave 10 times as much money as the law appears to allow individuals to contribute to the 2006 gubernatorial campaign of Florida’s then-Attorney General Charlie Crist, according to a Huffington Post review of state campaign finance records.

The donations that exceeded the individual limit were all made on the same day through companies Trump owns. Trump did not disclose the connection, and regulators did not identify the gifts as coming from Trump. All told, Trump made nine contributions of $500 to Crist’s campaign on Aug. 25, 2005, for a total of $4,500. At the time, the maximum allowable donation in Florida from an individual or corporation was $500, a sum that Trump had already given Crist’s campaign as a personal donation in June of that year.
It is amazing how much malfeasance has been uncovered being committed by one guy. One guy. Think how much more shit is going on that will never be caught. We think that we are protected because there are laws and regulations in place but I'm beginning to suspect that enforcing these laws is a very low priority. As we have already discovered during this crazy election the FEC is pretty much toothless; Trump continues to solicit funds from foreign nationals and there seems to be no attempt to stop him.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:49 AM on October 4, 2016 [72 favorites]


Sorry if this has already been linked, but:

Trump Used Foundation Funds for 2016 Run, Filings Suggest

It's far too early to enumerate any domesticated oviparous vertebrates, but my own personal Panic Level is lower than it's been in months. Everyone vote, everyone keep volunteering and donating - but I'm starting to think that Trump is finished.

I'll really start feeling better if the second debate is as much of a train wreck as the first (which I fully expect it to be).
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:51 AM on October 4, 2016 [31 favorites]


There's a certain kind of poetry to how the comments sort in that sub. Not by top (my default) or best (site default), but by new. Whoever has shouted most recently gets the attention, damn whatever comments have had the most support.

I mean, the comments here also sort chronologically, so, yeah.
posted by dersins at 6:52 AM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Criminey! Trump Used Foundation Funds for 2016 Run, Filings Suggest
"Trump would get thumped here,” Smith, president of the Palmetto Family Council, a social conservative public policy group, told the Christian Broadcasting Network. “He is a celebrity, but an apprentice at politics.”

Smith’s comments appeared in a March 2011 CBN story alongside feedback from other key national evangelical leaders such as Ralph Reed and Tony Perkins. Shortly after the story ran, Trump called Smith and invited him to meet at Trump Tower in New York, Smith told RealClearPolitics, “to see if he could convince me those things weren’t true.”[...]

During their meeting in Trump’s office, they discussed Christian faith and religious liberty. Smith was struck by “a different Donald Trump than I expected.” On his way out the door, Smith asked that Trump consider donating to the Palmetto Family Council.[...]

“It was a quiet donation that came with a simple cover letter,” Smith said. It read: “Great meeting with you and your wife in my office,” dated May 6, 2011. Enclosed was a check for $10,000 from the Donald J. Trump Foundation.

That check is one of at least several donations to suggest Trump used his private foundation, funded by outside donors, to launch and fuel his political ambitions. Such contributions, if they were made solely for Trump’s benefit, could violate federal self-dealing laws for private foundations.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:54 AM on October 4, 2016 [22 favorites]


Trump seems unique as a candidate in that any attempt whatsoever to hold him to established law will be taken by a significant portion of the population to be the government unfairly targeting him for political reasons. I'd honestly worry about what would happen if he was seriously targeted for his many crimes, for how many Trumpers would that be the last straw before a shooting or bombing? Even a couple would be horrible.

It's a fucked mental calculus, but I'd bet that was talked about.
posted by neonrev at 6:55 AM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Reddit threads will default to new comments first for live events. It makes match and game threads in the sports related subs much easier to follow.
posted by cmfletcher at 6:56 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Darn you, Potato Planet! I should have previewed.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:56 AM on October 4, 2016


@davidsirota: BREAKING: Docs show casino lobbying firms funneled huge cash directly to Pence campaign as Pence backed casino bills

Actual casino capitalism has been bankrolling the Republican party for quite some time now. Sheldon Adelson contributed huge amounts in the last three election cycles to various republican candidates.

It's one of the weirder bits of modern Republican conservatism that gambling is now practically a core virtue.
posted by srboisvert at 6:57 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump seems unique as a candidate in that any attempt whatsoever to hold him to established law will be taken by a significant portion of the population to be the government unfairly targeting him for political reasons.

I read it a bit differently. Any attempt to hold him to established law is taken by a significant portion of the population as proof that the laws are stupid and breaking the law is smart.

Law and order everyone!
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:59 AM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


That check is one of at least several donations to suggest Trump used his private foundation, funded by outside donors, to launch and fuel his political ambitions. Such contributions, if they were made solely for Trump’s benefit, could violate federal self-dealing laws for private foundations.

Which would fit the pattern Farenthold's investigations uncovered. But surely it'd violate election law as well? I doubt charities are supposed to contribute to political campaigns.
posted by Gelatin at 7:00 AM on October 4, 2016


I think the real October Surprise is how much dirt there is out there on Trump. He has been careening around, completely reckless with money for decades, drunk on his own self-estimation. Now those bad choices are are being exposed to the world. I wonder if his own children know what terrible choices he has made.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:01 AM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Eric Trump dismisses polls, because "When I'm walking on the street, I feel such tremendous love, and Clinton doesn't have that."

I'd like to know what street he's walking on, and I could suggest a few alternatives.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:01 AM on October 4, 2016 [61 favorites]


It's one of the weirder bits of modern Republican conservatism that gambling is now practically a core virtue.

You get to swindle the poor, take their money, and blame them for their stupidity. Also you can backfill the tax systems you gutted. Perfect.
posted by argybarg at 7:01 AM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


It's one of the weirder bits of modern Republican conservatism that gambling is now practically a core virtue.

Casinos are a lot like the Tea Party in that siphoning money away from the elderly is a major part of their business model.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:02 AM on October 4, 2016 [29 favorites]


I should add that, as a lifelong rule-following do-gooding Hermione, I'm personally offended at all this "rules r dum, the bad kids r smrt and kool" malarkey from the Trumpists.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:03 AM on October 4, 2016 [63 favorites]


A look at today on the campaign trail:

TEAM CLINTON
HRC in PA
Bill in OH
Bernie in MN
Warren in NV
Michelle in NC

TEAM TRUMP
Trump in AZ
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:03 AM on October 4, 2016 [43 favorites]


Trump seems unique as a candidate in that any attempt whatsoever to hold him to established law will be taken by a significant portion of the population to be the government unfairly targeting him for political reasons

I really don't think anything will stick against Trump, no matter how heinous. You could have incontrovertible proof that Trump ordered mafia-style hits on people who were blocking a construction project and he'd spin it as smart business and maybe you'd see a small dip at the polls.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:05 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]




It's one of the weirder bits of modern Republican conservatism that gambling is now practically a core virtue.

Well, sure. And their big bet right now is that their nominee for President isn't as much of an idiot, fraud, and failure as he presents (or as his past demonstrates) .

It's a sucker bet, but that's not stopping them from pushing all in, because the alternative is a strong, intelligent, competent woman, and that's clearly too horrible to even contemplate.
posted by dersins at 7:05 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Secret Life of Gravy: WaPo Years before ‘Aleppo moment,’ Gary Johnson showed little interest in details of governing
At the center of Johnson’s candidacy is his tenure in Santa Fe, where he was quick to use his veto pen and argued that government should provide only the most basic of services, such as building highways.

But Johnson ended up unnerving lawmakers on both sides of the aisle, who complained that he rarely took their ideas seriously.

When the vetoes started to pile up that first year, legislators tried to make amends by inviting him to participate in discussions about how they should spend money, according to legislative notes in the state Capitol. Johnson’s reply, again, was “no.”
Governor Veto was a Republican governor when the NM House and Senate had majorities, and earned that nickname from 700 to 800 vetoes he issued during his two terms.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:06 AM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Regarding the tax thing, and the charity thing:

I've been working on a longform piece about Ayn Rand all year, and one thing that's drawn my eye over and over is how potently Atlas Shrugged captures some of that slow-motion-fall-off-a-cliff sensation that 2016's provided in spades. The whole Brexit phenomenon, and the Trump thing when it looks like Trump might win, feels so eerily like the way in which the "bad people" go about knowingly destroying the society they're part of, aware enough that they're doing something self-destructive but not aware enough to undo the steeping resentments they feel towards the people they hope to destroy, even if it undoes them in the process. I found myself genuinely wondering if Rand went through some sort of similar event, because really Brexit in particular followed an absurdly parallel sequence of events. And Atlas Shrugged is not really known for its faithful reproductions of reality.

The tax-and-charity thing is another example, however, of something feeling like it's come right out of a Rand novel—in this case, it's the depiction of people who are so corrupt, and so privileged that they assume their various corrupt exploits are their rights, that they literally can't comprehend somebody else in a similar position to them not acting in exactly as corrupt a manner as they have been. At this point, it feels pretty clear that Trump's Mirror is an actual phenomenon, and that Trump accuses Clinton of all the things he himself is culpable of. With the tax obsession and the constant Clinton Foundation assaults, however, it feels like it goes beyond hypocrisy: I get the sense that he assumes Clinton must be doing all the awful things he does, because why would you be rich and not blithely game the system?

It also feeds into the seeming hypocrisy of his attacks. If you assume, as I think Trump does, that everybody in your position is as awful as you are, then the hypocrisy is on Clinton, for pretending that she's any better than he is. The crime isn't the crime: the crime is claiming that you are somehow above the crime. Hillary has to be corrupt, and the more she claims not to be, the more it rankles. Her claim to be more qualified for the presidency has got to be a lie, and paradoxically it makes her evidently less fit to be president than if she hadn't made that claim. Which is another phenomenon Rand satirizes, pretty ruthlessly and (in the wake of this election cycle) with damned accuracy too.

All of which leaves me wondering if Rand's experiences in Russia parallel our current environment whatsoever. It's equally likely that Rand merely perceived this all as happening, because she hated Freddy Roosevelt or whatever. But it's odd how similar so much of that wretched book feels.
posted by rorgy at 7:07 AM on October 4, 2016 [75 favorites]


The crime isn't the crime: the crime is claiming that you are somehow above the crime.

On a just-us-smallfolk level, I've encountered this phenomenon for years as (see above) a do-gooder Hermione type. The Trump campaign is just seeing it writ large. People admire him for "saying what everyone is thinking" when in actual fact not everyone is thinking that shit. But if you say that actually you don't think that stuff, you're accused of being a worse liar than Trump could ever be. But long before Trump this was A Thing, especially as directed from men towards women. (Being mansplained one's own real motivations and thoughts is such a thing.) I was on a listserv back in the Pleistocene with a dude (about 20 years my senior, so you can imagine a 40-something man picking on a 23 year old woman) that kind of made it his personal mission to "expose me" as not at all a good person because I committed the crime of being a kind of earnest Buddhist bleeding heart. (The listserv was one devoted to Phish so, like, earnest Buddhist bleeding hearts you'd think would be sort of thick on the ground--I don't know why this guy singled me out in particular.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:16 AM on October 4, 2016 [27 favorites]


"...that they literally can't comprehend somebody else in a similar position to them not acting in exactly as corrupt a manner as they have been."

This and the ease with which "you'd have to be a fool not to..." is used to justify a gain inordinate of another's expense trouble me in a big picture that I can't entirely see sort of way. See also: "we have cameras."
posted by klarck at 7:16 AM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


In somewhat related news, trolling and white supremacy do not seem to be very profitable:

"4chan, the infamous message board whose users once labelled it "the asshole of the Internet," is nearly out of money and will have to take drastic action if it wants to survive, according to its new owner. Meanwhile, the notorious hedge fund manager Martin Shkreli has offered to help out."
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:19 AM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


DONALD TRUMP: THE UGLY AMERICAN - Greydon Carter / Vanity Fair

The thing is, this ramshackle campaign, following a ramshackle business career, has exposed his flaws and failures to the world and, more importantly, to the people he will brush up against for the rest of his life. To them he is now officially a joke. I suspect he knows this. And if his thin skin on minor matters is any indication, he will be lashing out with even more vitriol. He is a mad jumble of a man, with a slapdash of a campaign and talking points dredged from the dark corners at the bottom of the Internet. I don’t think he will get to the White House, but just the fact that his carny act has gotten so far along the road will leave the path with a permanent orange stain. Trump, more than even the most craven politicians or entertainers, is a bottomless reservoir of need and desire for attention. He lives off crowd approval. And at a certain point that will dim, as it always does to people like him, and the cameras will turn to some other American novelty. When that attention wanes, he will be left with his press clippings, his dyed hair, his fake tan, and those tiny, tiny fingers.
posted by bluecore at 7:19 AM on October 4, 2016 [26 favorites]


"Everybody has a history of infidelity."
posted by Artw at 7:19 AM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


"Trump would get thumped here,” Smith, president of the Palmetto Family Council, a social conservative public policy group, told the Christian Broadcasting Network. “He is a celebrity, but an apprentice at politics.”
Nah, apprentices study and practice.
posted by phearlez at 7:19 AM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Talez: One of my children reports that their shop teacher was ranting about what a liar Hillary is today. I am feeling grumbly about the situation.

Another anecdote from the school front: my wife teaches at a really small (100+ student) high school, and the young lady who was narrowly voted back in as class president was referred to as [her first name] Trump, because she's loud and passionate, but doesn't take time to listen to others and is part of a small "mean girl" group. (My wife even asked the group if they're all friends, because they are so nasty to each other. "That's just how we treat each other," one of them replied.)

For clarification, being labeled a Trump was not a good thing in the eyes of her fellow students.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:22 AM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


rorgy: "...that they literally can't comprehend somebody else in a similar position to them not acting in exactly as corrupt a manner as they have been."

Which is why I didn't comment in the Amazon freebie review FPP thread! I have done a couple of reviews of products for which I got an item at zero cost, and I made an effort not to be blinded by greed -- but most commenters acted as though they just can't imagine writing fairly in that situation. *shrug*

posted by wenestvedt at 7:24 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Going To Maine: Nolan D. McCaskill at Politico: “Trump boasts about ‘brilliantly’ using the tax laws
Trump framed the report as “an alleged tax filing from the 1990s at the end of one of the most brutal economic downturns in our country’s history,” explaining that the conditions then for real estate developers was “almost as bad as the Great Depression of 1929 and far worse than the Great Recession of 2008.”
O RLY? In 1995 the world economy experienced another year of robust growth. According to International Monetary Fund (IMF) estimates, total output expanded by about 3.5%, largely unchanged from the previous year’s level, which in turn was the best performance since 1988.

GDP growth was positive for the fourth straight year. Yeah, Donald, far worse than the Great Recession of 2008. FFS, that's an article on Britannica.com that I found with 10 seconds of searching the internet. Nolan, take a few seconds to check these kind of statements from Donald, please. Verbatum reporting without confirmations makes his statements plausible when they should not be.

Maybe the real estate development market was different, but I'll let someone else dig up that information.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:27 AM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


"When I'm walking on the street, I feel such tremendous love, and Clinton doesn't have that."

The power of love is a curious thing, Eric Trump will tell you. I'm sure he hopes his father can get his lead back in time. But if this is it, he'll need a new drug.
posted by condour75 at 7:28 AM on October 4, 2016 [33 favorites]


The strange thing is that my family Trump supporter is truly one of the most generous and supportive people in my family.

Not really strange. One of the things this election season could be teaching us is that people are really complicated and messy collections of contradictory and confusing traits. It should go without saying that the same person can be kind and generous in one context, and a complete shitheel in others. This is what real human beings are like, including each of us who no doubt have our own hypocrisies and prejudices too, and it's something we have to come to terms with unless we want to go live alone on a remote mountainside, or be extremely unhappy all our lives.

I guess I find it hard to believe that (unless you are very young and just now coming to see one's parents or other adult relatives as real people) this election is the first time people with Trump-leaning close relatives have had to grapple with loved ones' sometimes upsetting attitudes. It is upsetting, of course, and I understand it from first hand experience with my own parents, who vote conservatively for a variety of reasons I have disagreed with since my teens. (I remember vividly my naive shock and dismay when I realized my parents would be voting for Reagan and not Carter for President, for an early example.)

What worries me in these threads are the moments when I feel people are dismissing Trump supporters as no longer worthy of any respect or consideration at all as fellow members of society, because that's the same horrific rhetoric that I personally despise in the talk by despotic leaders like Trump.
posted by aught at 7:29 AM on October 4, 2016 [25 favorites]


ZDNet: Why Trump and Brexit are an indictment of the tech industry and its worldview
When the smoke clears on the demonization of Trump and Brexit voters, we'll simply see the discontent of an alarmingly massive swath of people left behind by the tech revolution.

...

While both Trump and Brexit are widely characterized as xenophobic grasps for an earlier time when life was simpler and we took care of our own, the repugnant attitudes on the surface mask the deeper, legitimate problem at the heart of this discontent.

The calls to limit immigrants, build walls, and become more insular are only symptoms. The real illness is in the job market. If it weren't for the troubles with jobs, it's highly unlikely that Trump or Brexit--which are both low on solutions but ample in giving the finger to the establishment--would have gained any legitimate traction.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:29 AM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


WaPo: Tuesday’s VP debate will be all about Clinton and Trump: “Mike Pence needs to go in there and try to change the trajectory of the race, but he can’t do that because the biggest problem with their campaign right now is the presidential candidate,” said Mo Elleithee, a former Kaine ­adviser who now directs Georgetown University’s Institute of ­Politics and Public Service.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:30 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


ZDNet: Why Trump and Brexit are an indictment of the tech industry and its worldview

That seems a bizarre leap, on the other hand I've seen such mountains of bizarre gross geek bro bullshit this last couple of years so who even knows anymore?
posted by Artw at 7:33 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]




I feel people are dismissing Trump supporters as no longer worthy of any respect or consideration at all as fellow members of society

I feel differently than you, I feel like there have been massive calls for empathy for Trump supporters, in the media and in these threads. Much more so than empathy for PoC, LGBT, women, etc who are affected by what these people believe.
posted by zutalors! at 7:35 AM on October 4, 2016 [65 favorites]



Is there anyplace that distills the alt-right butthurt into concentrated schadenfreude so I don't have to actually visit that page?


I took a little peek.

-Can't believe that there is nothing. WTF?
-I was so sure Killary was dead tomorrow
-We're so screwed now. This makes us look stupid. Like really stupid. Not Donald US.
-lots of talk about who to blame. Gotta be someone.
-talk about what they wish it would be - lots of lewd silly things

-Well Stone said Wednesday guys? So maybe it is really tomorrow.
-Okay yeah maybe tommorrow.
-OMG lets not start again. We're screwed.

I stopped reading when I got to this comment and couldn't stop laughing.

I agree. I never started in the first place. Assange never said Tuesday was the day. I blame Alex Jones actually. I stopped following his work a few months ago because his accuracy was too low.
posted by Jalliah at 7:40 AM on October 4, 2016 [34 favorites]


Donald Trump is such a clown! Who couldn't beat him?

Jeb Bush
Ben Carson
Ted Cruz
John Kasich
Jim Gilmore
Marco Rubio
Rick Perry
Scott Walker
Bobby Jindal
Lindsey Graham
George Pataki
Jim Gilmore
Mike Huckabee
Rick Santorum
Rand Paul
Carley Fiorina
Chris Christie
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:41 AM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I feel people are dismissing Trump supporters as no longer worthy of any respect or consideration at all as fellow members of society

For my part: I'm -done- feeling sympathetic for people who choose to act in ways that curtail the rights of others, and especially those who advocate violence to do so. I don't care if they're acting out of malice, stupidity, fear, or whatever combination of those things.
posted by Archelaus at 7:41 AM on October 4, 2016 [56 favorites]


> Eric Trump dismisses polls, because "When I'm walking on the street, I feel such tremendous love, and Clinton doesn't have that."

I'll have what he's snorting.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:44 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


This tweet from Daniel Dale is chilling. It's a text from a Trump supporter who claims that they're stocking up on ammo, and have already identified "local left-wing radicals"--presumably anyone who is anti-Trump, especially PoC--"as potential targets for becoming neutralized for the greater good of America". And that's from someone who was cordial when they spoke face-to-face.

And we wonder why people aren't putting up yard signs?
posted by zombieflanders at 7:46 AM on October 4, 2016 [80 favorites]


I feel people are dismissing Trump supporters as no longer worthy of any respect or consideration at all as fellow members of society

Some, I'm sure, are nice people.
posted by dis_integration at 7:46 AM on October 4, 2016 [37 favorites]


GhostintheMachine: Am I missing something about the whole "fiduciary responsibility" angle? I understand a company has a responsibility to lower its tax burden in order to maintain profitability and therefore keep shareholders and employees happy. But isn't this a personal loss? Who does this harm if he pays more tax than is absolutely required by law? Doesn't it just mean he doesn't make as much money?

There are two things: 1) people who don't have their own (huuuge) business can't reduce their taxes from personal losses, so it paints Donald as someone who does not represent the working class like he says he does, and 2) he complains about the state of government institutions and infrastructure but his taxes in 1995 could have paid for 36 elementary schools, or a third of the operating budget of the CDC, or the entire operating budget of the Library of Congress.

The rub is that on point #2, many people say "well, he did a good job in not paying more taxes than he had to," which is a sound practice for anyone, as a business owner or blue collar worker.

But then there's Donald's words from over Feb. 2012: HALF of Americans don't pay income tax despite crippling govt debt ... and that was Trump's Mirror in action.

Paying taxes is part of the social contract people enter into to get all the services and utilities that are provided from local, state and federal taxes. Schools, roads, firefighters and police, and our military (and so much more) are paid for with taxes, which Donald did not pay because he is a terrible business person for having those losses in the first place.

Even if you overlook all that, there are plenty of other despicable business practices that Donald uses, so if this doesn't piss you off, there are so many more options.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:48 AM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Eric Trump dismisses polls, because "When I'm walking on the street, I feel such tremendous love, and Clinton doesn't have that."

"Yelling 'Go fuck yourself' is love, right? They are saying that I am so beautiful that I should have sex with me."
posted by Etrigan at 7:49 AM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


There was an NPR interview this morning with a Mormon Trump supporter who makes the remarkable argument that, since the Mormons were persecuted and chased out of communities, Muslims should get the same treatment. I don't even know what to do with that
posted by theodolite at 7:51 AM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


When I'm walking on the street, people say "Hi, Soren Lorensen!" From this I infer that nobody ever says hello to anyone but me.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:51 AM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Eric Trump walks down...streets? Pffft.
posted by ian1977 at 7:53 AM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Religious persecution for some, miniature American flags for others!
posted by cmfletcher at 7:53 AM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


There was an NPR interview this morning with a Mormon Trump supporter who makes the remarkable argument that, since the Mormons were persecuted and chased out of communities, Muslims should get the same treatment. I don't even know what to do with that

OH GOD I was screaming at the radio this morning. I never do that. But this lady was just so goddamn dense.

Her fear is that Muslims wanted to "walk into our schools and shoot our children." David Greene drolly noted that studies have shown that most mass shootings in the US are perpetrated by white men and asked if that eased her worries.

"No, because I don't believe them."

Democracy in action! She gets a vote, same as you.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:57 AM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


For people linking tweets and other short snippets-- some have asked not to do that, and I thought I'd chime in from my phone. I don't care if you link the entire text of a tweet, but can you please add a note that that's what you've done? Every time I click a link on my phone and see the exact text that was in the thread already, then I hit the back button, then my phone tries to reload the massive thread, then it errors out, then I have to reload it again and hope I remembered to click on the time stamp before leaving the page, and if not scroll, scroll, scroll to find my place again. Take pity on us poor phone browsers, and give us a clue what the link is, and whether it's worth 5 minutes of fighting the monster thread navigation to view it. (My overheating phone thanks you from the bottom of its home button.)
posted by instamatic at 7:58 AM on October 4, 2016 [34 favorites]


There was an NPR interview this morning with a Mormon Trump supporter who makes the remarkable argument that, since the Mormons were persecuted and chased out of communities, Muslims should get the same treatment.

I heard about two sentences of that, specifically the ones about how Mormons didn't want to change any laws and were just looking to worship in peace, but Muslims all want to convert everyone and CLICK I'M DONE.
posted by Etrigan at 7:59 AM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


theodolite: There was an NPR interview this morning with a Mormon Trump supporter who makes the remarkable argument that, since the Mormons were persecuted and chased out of communities, Muslims should get the same treatment. I don't even know what to do with that

Give them their own state, of course! If you're looking for the state with the highest percentage Muslim population, it's either Illinois or New York.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:00 AM on October 4, 2016


I've never had a Muslim knock on my door looking to proselytize.
posted by ian1977 at 8:01 AM on October 4, 2016 [50 favorites]


instamatic I long click on links in situations like that; opens it up in a new tab so you don't have to back up to the monster thread.
posted by Mitheral at 8:01 AM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


instamatic: For people linking tweets and other short snippets-- some have asked not to do that, and I thought I'd chime in from my phone. I don't care if you link the entire text of a tweet, but can you please add a note that that's what you've done?

Seconding this - and I like to see tweet text instead of blind links saying "check out this comment from someone!"
posted by filthy light thief at 8:02 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


instamatic I long click on links in situations like that; opens it up in a new tab so you don't have to back up to the monster thread.

Also my technique. Metafilter is the only site I go to on a regular basis that doesn't default to opening links in a new tab, so I just got in the habit of always long-clicking on any link in MF.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:03 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've had plenty of gripes about NPR this election season for their "we just present what people say and let the listener decide" stance, but between today's profile and the one I linked upthread about the dude who predicts a civil war if Clinton is elected, they've been doing remarkable work in letting Trump voters put their beliefs on display in all their, um, glory.
posted by Gelatin at 8:03 AM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


I've tried long-clicking, but gave up a few thousand comments back. My phone reloads every time I click out of this thread's window and back in. (And my phone is an iPhone 6 running the latest updates, not an ancient brick.) it's actually faster to go back and forth in the same window on my phone.
posted by instamatic at 8:03 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


If you go to your MeFi preferences, the third check box will make links open in a new window by default.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 8:04 AM on October 4, 2016 [39 favorites]


The level of cognitive dissonance that the Republican party has been able to inculcate their base with (the proverbial 27%) is truly impressive.

They have developed a parallel universe to the one that most of us operate and anything that threatens to intrude on that construct or call into doubt it's validity is instantly rejected typically by pointing to some vague assertion made by conservative pundits (or preachers). Furthermore they get really angry if you push back against their world view or call it into question.

This is the sort of elaborate construct that allows some conservatives to believe that school shootings like Sandy Hook are elaborate false flag operations designed to separate Americans from their guns.
posted by vuron at 8:05 AM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Metafilter is the only site I go to on a regular basis that doesn't default to opening links in a new tab

Is that a setting somewhere? It's one of the few sites I got to on a regular basis that does default to opening links in a new tab for me.
posted by Etrigan at 8:05 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I guess I find it hard to believe that (unless you are very young and just now coming to see one's parents or other adult relatives as real people) this election is the first time people with Trump-leaning close relatives have had to grapple with loved ones' sometimes upsetting attitudes. It is upsetting, of course, and I understand it from first hand experience with my own parents, who vote conservatively for a variety of reasons I have disagreed with since my teens.

I think for a lot of us the Trump support crosses over a line that hadn't previously been crossed. It is one thing to divide on ideological grounds about how to best make society better. It is another to throw your support behind someone who is so consistently hateful and feckless. Consider the support of McCain, where the narrative behind him was one about duty and service. Personally I think he's actually a hateful little jerk who coasted on family connections, but that's something you'd have to look past his personal presentation to see.

You don't have to dig to see that on Trump. His gross behavior towards women and PoC has been front and center and a part of his appeal. Where McCain stopped to tell a supporter that no, Obama was not a secret muslim, Trump has stoked and encouraged at every turn. He's cavalier at best about violence against people who disagree with him.

Principled disagreement - or even just lazy tribalism - is a lot easier to reconcile than supporting an overtly hateful movement. I don't think this is quite the first time people have confronted relative's troubling attitudes. I have friends who had very difficult conversations with family over the Maryland marriage equality vote, who had to look people in the eye and say "You realize this isn't some abstract thing, right? This has a very concrete impact on my life with my husband." I'm not sure that particular rift ever healed completely.

This is that, writ large, without even the fig leaf of a supposed biblical definition of narrow focus to fall back on.
posted by phearlez at 8:05 AM on October 4, 2016 [43 favorites]


If you go to your MeFi preferences, the third check box will make links open in a new window by default.


OMG!!!! MY LIFE IS CHANGED FOREVER! Thank you, sincerely. I'm a relative MF newb and this has driven me bonkers the whole time.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:07 AM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


I have given up trying to engage with them at all - logic doesn't work, facts don't work, evidence doesn't work, even getting them to admit their own points are illogical doesn't work. Its like all of their beliefs are tied together in a ball of rubber bands - you might be able to pull one away for a moment but its going to snap right back the moment you release it.

Their beliefs are all tied together with emotions. It's a different worldview than one steeped in logic, facts, and evidence. Maybe worldviews rooted in emotions and feelings are most likely to change when presented with similar worldviews, as opposed to fact and logic based worldviews.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:07 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


> And we wonder why people aren't putting up yard signs?

Between shit like this and Trump calling on his supporters to "watch" polling stations in "certain areas" we may be asking ourselves "And we wonder why people didn't vote?" on November 9th.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:08 AM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


theodolite: There was an NPR interview this morning with a Mormon Trump supporter who makes the remarkable argument that, since the Mormons were persecuted and chased out of communities, Muslims should get the same treatment. I don't even know what to do with that

Oh, and we can send such Islamophobic supporters of Trump articles that call out his comments supporting Sharia law because it's easier for men to divorce their wives, and for religious folks, remind them that he pleaded the fifth 97 times to avoid admitting to adultery in his 1990 divorce hearing, to end his first of three marriages. Hey, undecided religiously-guided voters, don't make this about being Anti-Choice over everything else because Pence can't save you. (Another NPR piece from this morning in their Divided States series, audio only for now, transcript to come later today)
posted by filthy light thief at 8:09 AM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Between shit like this and Trump calling on his supporters to "watch" polling stations in "certain areas"

This reminds me, way upthread we were joking about how many taco trucks $916 million could buy. Was just thinking that taco trucks should be sent out to polling places to keep watch as well, or just to sell tacos.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:12 AM on October 4, 2016 [22 favorites]


Ha. A Pence tweet for X-men fans.
posted by Artw at 8:14 AM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


You can forward them all the stuff you want, but this article linked to earlier in the thread made a persuasive case that many/most of his supporters will not care about his personal lapses in orthodoxy because they're not looking for someone who embodies their beliefs, they're looking for a strongman who will protect them as their power and influence wane (or are perceived to wane).

Ascendant political coalitions can afford to impose litmus tests on their candidates. They look for politicians who not only endorse their favored positions, but embody them. But coalitions that believe the moral consensus is cracking, that see their values under attack, and fear their own eclipse may turn away from candidates whose own lives exemplify a moral vision that the broader society no longer endorses. Instead, they seek out figures who seem strong enough, tough enough, ruthless enough to roll back social change, or at least to hold it at bay. They look for a champion.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:14 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Their beliefs are all tied together with emotions.

Which is... I can't call it schadenrfeude but kind of a special kind of ironic to me because I was brought up to believe that the Right is the rational, thinking, utilitarian side and the Left are all feeeelings and bleeding hearts and wooly-headed, hippie-dippie irrationality. Yes, this was a long time ago lol. Before the complete evangelical take-over of the GOP. I've pretty much spent my entire adult life watching these poles reverse and this moment marks the completion of the full cycle.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:14 AM on October 4, 2016 [39 favorites]


This reminds me, way upthread we were joking about how many taco trucks $916 million could buy. Was just thinking that taco trucks should be sent out to polling places to keep watch as well, or just to sell tacos.

I'm now thinking of a Get Out The Vote campaign based on hiring all the taco trucks we can on election day and parking them outside the polling stations to give out free tacos.
posted by Francis at 8:16 AM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


a special kind of ironic to me because I was brought up to believe that the Right is the rational, thinking, utilitarian side and the Left are all feeeelings and bleeding hearts and wooly-headed, hippie-dippie irrationality. ... Before the complete evangelical take-over of the GOP. I've pretty much spent my entire adult life watching these poles reverse and this moment marks the completion of the full cycle.

QFT. Democrats in general seem to have embraced a utilitarian, technocratic mindset in which the data points toward the preferred policy. As noted earlier, it's telling that Republicans, for example, refuse to even allow the CDC to collect data on gun casualties, because it's a tacit admission that the data will suggest a policy they don't want, much like climate change.

It's worth noting that one of the notable early studies of cognitive dissonance involved members of a cult whose prophecies had failed.
posted by Gelatin at 8:21 AM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


Andrew Kaczynski, Nathan McDermott, Christopher Massie, and Kyle Blaine, who unearthed lurid stories about Donald J. Trump at Buzzfeed, are leaving for CNN.
posted by monospace at 8:22 AM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


If anyone wants a little nugget to soothe their JCPL, when I was out canvassing last weekend, people (demographic info: middle class black neighborhood) were by and large fired up about voting. Most of the time the person I was out to contact wasn't at home (it wound up being a lot of college kids living with their parents who were either at school or at work) but I'd always ask whoever opened the door if everyone in the house was registered to vote and knew where their polling place was. The universal answer was basically "HELL YEAH, LET ME AT THAT VOTING BOOTH!" Taco trucks would be a nice bonus, but the people of my precinct seem to already be having fantasies of mashing that (D) button so hard.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:23 AM on October 4, 2016 [58 favorites]


If anyone else is having trouble with the page reloading each time you long-click to open in a new window, I just went through and closed every single other window and (for now) it is not reloading.
posted by instamatic at 8:23 AM on October 4, 2016


All of the forces in the media drive us to think that there is only the basket of deplorables. To do so is wonderfully tempting, and a luxury that I indulge in shamefully . (The other basket is that of people who should know better, a classification that also invites dismissal.)
posted by Going To Maine at 8:24 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I feel differently than you, I feel like there have been massive calls for empathy for Trump supporters, in the media and in these threads. Much more so than empathy for PoC, LGBT, women, etc who are affected by what these people believe.

I suspect that's because the media you read, like these threads, is probably targeted to an audience that already feels deep empathy for PoC, LGBT people, women, etc.

Metafilter has not a single Trump supporter posting. Zero. On the other hand we have lots of women, queer people, and people of color, and disabled people, etc (and a lot of overlap among those groups). This is a pretty safe space for all of those groups, which is part of what makes it wonderful.

But Metafilter sometimes scares me a little when we get our two-minute hate on for the people who aren't here with us. The non college educated white men who are overwhelmingly voting for Trump? They're not here. They can't defend themselves.

But it's actually not their fault that they are non-college-educated, white, or men. And maybe being those things doesn't make you a bad person. Maybe their race, sex, and class mean they are under cultural pressures that someone who wasn't raised that way has a hard time understanding. Maybe too someone who grew up in a rural environment is under different cultural pressures and constraints than someone who grew up in the more prosperous suburbs or the city has never experienced.

If we can make an effort to understand how drug addiction is not necessarily a moral failing, but a product of someone's circumstances combined with normal human weaknesses, and how certain kinds of crime in the cities are mostly a symptom of poverty and desperation and hopelessness, and how low SAT scores and grades are explained more by socio-economic status than "stupidity and laziness"... Maybe we can understand how "Supporting Trump" is also one of those things.

Maybe "more non-college educated white men support Trump" isn't proof that "White people suck" so much as a symptom of problem that is being disproportionately experienced by non-college educated white men. Like -- well -- lack of education comes to mind. Toxic masculinity with its pressure to be a breadwinner. The disappearance of manufacturing jobs that once would have provided a middle class existence without a college education. And yes, the loss of privileges... but some of those "privileges" actually functioned as a safety net for these people, and now they are seeing that net disappear (and they don't trust the "government" safety net that their political "enemies" claim to be trying to hold out for them. Trust is hard, across tribal boundaries.)

I'm personally asking MeFites to empathize with these (white, male, rural, working-class) people specifically because they are the people I think we find it hardest to empathize with. Because if we don't, we are going to wind up being prejudiced against people (in effect, if not intent) based on their race, sex, place of origin, and social class.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:25 AM on October 4, 2016 [54 favorites]




Andrew Kaczynski, Nathan McDermott, Christopher Massie, and Kyle Blaine, who unearthed lurid stories about Donald J. Trump at Buzzfeed, are leaving for CNN.

Am I the only one who actually views this as a step down for them, in terms of credibility? Buzzfeed has been doing some solid journalism recently, but I stopped paying any attention to CNN long ago. I've had them mentally filed as "that mealy-mouthed TV news outfit that airports always have on" for the better part of a decade now.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:26 AM on October 4, 2016 [35 favorites]


This mindset is also evident, by the way, in the way Republicans talk about Democrats. They often refer to Democrats wanting to raise taxes and increase regulations as if those activities were goals in and of themselves, rather than means to an end.

On the other hand, it's pretty clear, based on their own statements, that cutting taxes on the wealthy and reducing regulation on business are indeed the goals of the modern Republican Party, irrespective of any policy aim to be achieved thereby, which rarely if ever works out as promimes -- right, Kansas? Cutting taxes is the policy aim.
posted by Gelatin at 8:27 AM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


Andrew Kaczynski, Nathan McDermott, Christopher Massie, and Kyle Blaine, who unearthed lurid stories about Donald J. Trump at Buzzfeed, are leaving for CNN.

CNN is getting into journalism?
posted by Artw at 8:27 AM on October 4, 2016 [52 favorites]


I'm personally asking MeFites to empathize with these (white, male, rural, working-class) people specifically because they are the people I think we find it hardest to empathize with.

We can empathize with them at the same time that we believe they are making a monstrous decision.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:28 AM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Mod note: Folks, we really have been around the "be empathetic to Trump supporters" vs "no, they want to kill me" rodeo approximately one million times, it's really not changing anybody's mind and it just produces vituperation in the thread, please let's not go there again.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:28 AM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


Between shit like this and Trump calling on his supporters to "watch" polling stations in "certain areas" we may be asking ourselves "And we wonder why people didn't vote?" on November 9th.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:08 AM on October 4 [2 favorites +] [!]


Oh, pull the other one. Women and minorities don't scare that easily. I mean, seriously, do you know what black people had to go through to get to vote?

On preview, what soren lorensen said. We're all going to vote hard.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:36 AM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


Am I the only one who actually views this as a step down for them?

I agree that CNN is a step down. CNN is in the entertainment business, not the journalism business. The head of CNN (Jeff Zucker) came over from the entertainment side of NBC, and his rise there was tightly tied to his realization that Trump made good TV and increased ratings. He brought that mindset with him to CNN.
posted by diogenes at 8:41 AM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]




I always have to take a minute to figure out if Jeff Zucker directed the Airplane! movies. Those guys are also in the tank for Trump!
posted by pxe2000 at 8:44 AM on October 4, 2016


I can't call it schadenrfeude but kind of a special kind of ironic to me because I was brought up to believe that the Right is the rational, thinking, utilitarian side and the Left are all feeeelings and bleeding hearts and wooly-headed, hippie-dippie irrationality. Yes, this was a long time ago lol. Before the complete evangelical take-over of the GOP. I've pretty much spent my entire adult life watching these poles reverse and this moment marks the completion of the full cycle.

soren_lorensen: Me too! I'm very early GenX, and I remember when it was the left derided as soft-headed, soft-hearted, "feminists-n-social scientists LOL" - here's an article by a feminist anthropologist that touches on this! - but oh boy has the worm turned lately. Trump, not to mention his minions, positively oozes emotionality! Watching the debate, and its aftermath, was like watching a marshmallow Peep explode in a microwave.

It would be funny if it wasn't frightening to me personally as a woman how many of the "Trump bro" ilk think that "women are too irrational and emotional" to lead, and blah blah evolutionary psychology blah blah can't argue with Science! - and they are at their most overflowing-with-feelings (or, should I say, feefees) when they are trying to be the most "rational."
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:45 AM on October 4, 2016 [24 favorites]


My apologies, I didn't mean to imply that women or minorities are too afraid to vote or that they would deserve any blame in the event that Trump wins, but Republicans have used underhanded voter suppression tactics like this for a long time and every person they can dissuade from voting is a victory for them.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:48 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I feel as though we need a dance break. Pantsuit flashmob takes over Union Square in homage to Hillary Clinton.
posted by WordCannon at 8:51 AM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Pantsuit Flashmob might be a decent name for a band
posted by vuron at 9:01 AM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump backers realize they’ve been played as WikiLeaks fails to deliver October surprise

Picking what to quote from this article was hard.

The much-vaunted news conference, as it turned out, was little more than an extended infomercial for WikiLeaks on the occasion of the 10th anniversary of its founding.

Assange, whose group released a trove of hacked Democratic National Committee documents on the eve of the party’s convention this summer, breezily dismissed the idea that anyone should have expected any news at his news conference.

[Snowden and WikiLeaks clash over leaked Democratic Party emails]

“If we are going to make a major publication about the U.S., we wouldn't do it at 3 a.m.," Assange said at one point, referring to the Eastern daylight start time for the event.

That didn’t go over well with Trump backers who had stayed up through the night, thinking they’d be watching live the unveiling of the death blow to the Clinton campaign.

Assange, as it turns out, had taken a page from Trump’s own playbook by drawing an audience with a tease, only to leave those tuning in feeling that they’d been tricked.

posted by Jalliah at 9:02 AM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Maggie Hassan has an ad out already on Ayotte saying Trump's a role model and it lowers the boom.
posted by chris24 at 9:05 AM on October 4, 2016 [37 favorites]


But 3 am is when the magic happens!
posted by Huffy Puffy at 9:06 AM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Has anyone called Hannity lately?
posted by drezdn at 9:06 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Fuck these people. Apropos of absolutely nothing other than ginning up Muslim hate, Conway tweets a random news article this morning.

@KellyannePolls: Muslim kills sister bc she married a Christian. Their father upset bc son's income gone & bc daughter brought shame. http://nyp.st/2dmhULG
posted by chris24 at 9:08 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Maggie Hassan has an ad out already on Ayotte saying Trump's a role model and it lowers the boom.

That felt like someone punching me in the gut. Good ad. Simple and to the point.
posted by Jalliah at 9:09 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]




Maggie Hassan has an ad out already on Ayotte saying Trump's a role model yt and it lowers the boom.

That ad is a humdinger. No wonder these clowns (Trump, at least) whine about nasty lowball tactics when people simply quote their own words. Their own words are nothing to be proud of (which Ayotte conceded with her attempt to take it back).
posted by Gelatin at 9:11 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


OnceUponATime: “The non college educated white men who are overwhelmingly voting for Trump?... I'm personally asking MeFites to empathize with these (white, male, rural, working-class) people... ”

Look, I think your read of these demographics is more than a little – hasty. It is true that the biggest predictors of being a Trump supporters are being white, being male, and not having a college education. We hear these things and immediately think "rural working-class" as you did, but I don't think that's actually true. Rural America has a larger proportion of white non-Hispanic people, yes; but it isn't that much larger, and actually doesn't rise above 80% on average, particularly in the South. That means more than one in five rural people isn't white. As of 2004, rural college enrollment rates were only 7% lower than the national average, and I'm willing to bet they've gone up since then. And I shouldn't have to point this out, I guess, but I'm also guessing the proportion of women to men in rural America is about the same as it is in the rest of the country.

In short: all rural working-class people are not white men without a college education. Making the leap to connect these seems like a mistake to me. Most of all, in my opinion it underestimates what I believe is probably the groundswell of Trump's actual support: internet-using white males who are contrarian and angry at "the system," with various amorphous meanings for that term. Some are committed racists, but a lot more are just wearing swastikas like Sid Vicious did because "it pisses the right people off." I don't think they're more likely to be rural at all – to the contrary, I think they're likely to be surrounded by Democrats and to despise that. Maybe I've been hanging out on r/The_Donald too much, but that's the impression I get there. Rural working-class religious white people – the demographic people like to think is the average Trump voter – don't use words like "cuck" or posts memes with cartoon frogs. Maybe this is an optical misapprehension, like the assumption that having thousands of people come to your rallies means tens of millions of people will vote for you – but I think it carries some truth. The real push Trump has gotten has been on the internet, by people not actually working for his campaign.
posted by koeselitz at 9:11 AM on October 4, 2016 [37 favorites]


>> Maggie Hassan has an ad out already on Ayotte saying Trump's a role model and it lowers the boom.
> That felt like someone punching me in the gut. Good ad. Simple and to the point.


The callback at the end - after seeing Trump do his thing - is a real kick. Not good news for Kelly Ayotte. I'd rate this a campaign-ender in normal years.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:12 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


It Takes A Genius Like Donald Trump To Lose A Billion Dollars* (9:17, but let's skip Hunky Rabbis calendar jokes) | The Late Show with Stephen Colbert

* While running a casino. You know what they say, the house always loses.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:13 AM on October 4, 2016


The callback at the end - after seeing Trump do his thing - is a real kick. Not good news for Kelly Ayotte. I'd rate this a campaign-ender in normal years.

And it doubles as an anti-Trump ad.
posted by Gelatin at 9:14 AM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Cant wait for Tim Kaine to show up at tonight's veep debate with a trunkload of Little Caesars and two-liters of pop for everyone in attendance.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 9:15 AM on October 4, 2016 [27 favorites]


Clinton Leads By 6 Points In Post-Debate Poll Of North Carolina

Clinton 45
Trump 39

Trump led by 1 pre-debate, so 7 point swing.
posted by chris24 at 9:21 AM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


He didn't lose a billion dollars. He didn't lose 900 million. Those would have made him a moron! He lost 916 million. The genius sweet spot.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:22 AM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'd rate this a campaign-ender in normal years.

I really do not understand Ayotte's durability in New Hampshire. She's signed on to every right wing tea party obstruction her entire time in office, while denying what she's doing in plain sight with these mealymouthed bothsides-isms at every turn. She's the next in a long line of New England hardline Republicans who seem to exist only play Lucy to the Democrat's need for "bipartisanship", while always pulling the football at the last moment and voting for the Ted Cruz amendment anyway. See: Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins. Hassan, unlike say Patrick Murphy or Ted Strickland, is an impressive candidate, a popular governor who won 55% of the vote in her gov election. Yet New Hampshire is so far sticking by Ayotte.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:24 AM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


"When I'm walking on the street, I feel such tremendous love, and Clinton doesn't have that."

The power of love is a curious thing, Eric Trump will tell you. I'm sure he hopes his father can get his lead back in time.


I'm pretty sure Huey Lewis and the News's early work was a little too new wave for Eric's tastes, but when Sports came out in '83, he thought they really came into their own, commercially and artistically. The whole album has a clear, crisp sound, and a new sheen of consummate professionalism that really gives the songs a big boost, according to him. They've been compared to Elvis Costello, but Eric thinks Huey has a far more bitter, cynical sense of humor.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 9:26 AM on October 4, 2016 [53 favorites]


Woo if NC turns into a rout I think the number of options for Trump to win are vanishingly small especially given that if Clinton wins NC she's certain to win Virginia.
posted by vuron at 9:27 AM on October 4, 2016


Borlax-5, I dare you to go to Earth and act like a jackass.

This is from Extra Fabulous Comics, in case anybody else was wondering who to credit for this.
posted by rorgy at 9:28 AM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Holy fuck are his wastrel sons idiots.

@MajorCBS: Via @EricTrump @AmericaNewsroom on @mike_pence "his track record in his home state, in Illinois is exactly why we picked him..." #Indiana
posted by chris24 at 9:30 AM on October 4, 2016 [56 favorites]


Maggie Hassan has an ad out already on Ayotte saying Trump's a role model and it lowers the boom.

Love it. Would be great to tie as much of the Republican party as possible to this anchor. I suppose metaphorically it is more like Bugs Bunny watching Elmer Fudd tie his shoelace to an anchor chain, and then pointing it out the moment before he gets dragged away.
posted by snofoam at 9:31 AM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


If she wins NC it's over before the polls close on the west coast, unless Trump somehow wins Pennsylvania, or New Hampshire and Wisconsin both. That doesn't seem like a plausible scenario.

Even still, Clinton winning NC opens up even more room for her to lose Florida and/or Colorado, both of which she's currently winning.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:32 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Cant wait for Tim Kaine to show up at tonight's veep debate with a trunkload of Little Caesars and two-liters of pop for everyone in attendance.

I know everybody's all about Goofy Dad Tim Kaine, but I really want him to come out swinging tonight. Go after Pence not just on Trump, but on how evil Pence himself is. He should rub his face in his disgusting bigotry, let everyone know how his laws treated Purvi Patel, and bring up the new casino money allegation so he looks as venial and disgusting as Trump.

I only "aw shucks" face I want Kaine to be making is the one he does while sticking a (metaphorical) shiv in Pence's ribs.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:33 AM on October 4, 2016 [58 favorites]


In short: all rural working-class people are not white men without a college education. Making the leap to connect these seems like a mistake to me.

I didn't say they were. But the more of those qualifiers you match, the more likely you are, statistically, to be a Trump supporter. By the time you're looking at someone who is in the intersection of all of those groups, there's like a >90% chance of them being a Trump supporter, irrespective of their other virtues or vices as a person.

Maybe I've been hanging out on r/The_Donald too much, but that's the impression I get there. Rural working-class religious white people – the demographic people like to think is the average Trump voter – don't use words like "cuck" or posts memes with cartoon frogs.

Well, there's no polling that identifies people by their subreddit rather than their state, but I get the impression that those people are visible (to us) but relatively few.

There is polling by age, and older people seem to outnumber younger people among Trump's supporters, while I think the reddit bros are mostly younger...

Besides I can't make a case defending them very well (though I would be interested in hearing the case made, because wow those people seem hard to defend, but I'm really philosophically committed to this "nothing human is alien to me" idea and I suspect they must have some motives I'd recognize, somewhere under all that posturing...) But I actually know some of the other kind of Trump supporter, so those are the ones I think of when MeFi gets mad at Trump supporters.

Still it worries me that the distinction between the right and the alt-right is becoming blurrier, and between the patriarchy and the Manosphere.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:33 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


WaPo: Tuesday’s VP debate will be all about Clinton and Trump

I hope not. I want to see Kaine hit Pence hard for some of his really far out there anti-LGBT record, including his writings and radio shows in the 1990s. He should also attack Pence's refusal to pardon Keith Cooper.

On preview, what zombieflanders said too.
posted by dhens at 9:35 AM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Still it worries me that the distinction between the right and the alt-right is becoming blurrier, the patriarchy and the Manosphere.

Here's a little secret for you:

The alt-right doesn't exist. It's just white supremacists with twitter handles and reddit accounts. Throwaway emails are the new white hoods
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:42 AM on October 4, 2016 [40 favorites]


Mark Joseph Stern: Mike Pence Is a Coward and an Extremist. He’s the perfect face of the GOP.
Donald Trump’s more tepid supporters like to think of his running mate, Mike Pence, as the adult on this year’s Republican ticket, one who offers the previously ideologically wishy-washy Republican nominee rock-ribbed conservative credentials to boot. “What we have here is a really good leader, a good conservative, a knowledgeable conservative, a real Reagan-like happy warrior joining this ticket,” Speaker of the House Paul Ryan glowed after Pence was picked in July. The Indiana governor may be a true conservative, but Pence is hardly the picture of a mainstream Reagan-esque “happy warrior” that his supporters would like to claim. Indeed, throughout his long and strange career, Pence has displayed a willingness to uncritically adopt the kookiest, angriest, most deranged positions of the far-right wing of his party. A brief overview of his political history demonstrates this pattern of unhinged extremism—and suggests that his debate performance on Tuesday night will veer between dull obfuscation and awkward evasion of an extremist policy background that he is too craven to openly defend.
[...]
[T]here is a slim chance that Pence will be asked a few sharp, unexpected questions. And when that has happened in the past, his failure to deliver a coherent response has been downright revelatory. Challenged to say whether he thinks anti-gay discrimination should be illegal or whether former Ku Klux Klan grand wizard David Duke is deplorable, Pence has panicked, stuttered, and melted into a silence that speaks volumes. When Pence collapses on the air, two things become immediately apparent: This man is a fanatical ultraconservative—but he also doesn’t have the courage to openly defend his beliefs. In those moments, voters can peer between the lines to see the coward that hides beneath the culture warrior. That is the real Mike Pence. And it is the man whom Pence’s handlers will likely strive to conceal from view under the bright lights of prime-time TV on Tuesday night.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:45 AM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


Citing a growing number of reports by its membership of Trump-like bullying in classrooms across the country, the National Education Association is planning to make the issue a centerpiece of its argument against Trump in ads and mailings in battleground states.

Teachers on the blue (like myself) have talked about this before. This shit is for real. Again, like Trump encouraging the "tough soldiers don't need mental health care" line, his candidacy alone is doing terrible harm whether he wins or not.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:45 AM on October 4, 2016 [71 favorites]


a long line of New England hardline Republicans who seem to exist only play Lucy to the Democrat's need for "bipartisanship", while always pulling the football at the last moment and voting for the Ted Cruz amendment anyway.

such good analogy though
posted by zutalors! at 9:49 AM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


I know everybody's all about Goofy Dad Tim Kaine, but I really want him to come out swinging tonight. Go after Pence not just on Trump, but on how evil Pence himself is. He should rub his face in his disgusting bigotry, let everyone know how his laws treated Purvi Patel, and bring up the new casino money allegation so he looks as venial and disgusting as Trump.

I wouldn't worry about that. Kaine is avuncular but he's no softie and he's not afraid to call out crap behavior. You should really watch his HRC speech if you haven't, but if you can't commit the time you should at least a few 30 second runs. Watch this part where he talks about the student group for gay rights at his university that sued and won the right to meet on campus. When he talks about the behavior of students who abused this group as they marched onto campus he doesn't need to be hot about it. He's set up the initial situation and talks about his reaction to seeing that ugliness. Or where he talks about Trump's praise of Putin. Or when he talks about Pence.

Kaine's delivery is no Biden but I think that quiet strength is going to play real well against the loud buffoonery that is Trump-Pence.
posted by phearlez at 9:50 AM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


Still it worries me that the distinction between the right and the alt-right is becoming blurrier, and between the patriarchy and the Manosphere.

When the right's candidate has a history of racism, is openly embracing the alt-right, and is a misogynistic serial sexual harasser being advised by other misogynistic serial sexual harassers, I don't think it's up to those of us on the left (or center) to maintain any distinction on their behalf. People on the right can disavow Trump, disavow the violence, disavow the racist and sexist policies, and maybe I'll start thinking there's a perceivable difference between the patriarchal right and the Manosphere alt-right.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:50 AM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


I'm crossing my fingers for a new Ohio poll to come out today and flip the state blue in 538's polls-only model. It's been trending that way for a while, and is currently hovering juuuuuust on the red side of 50/50. If the blue part of The Snake gets longer, I feel like it'll mean a lot for Clinton's chances. Ohio is currently her best chance there, and it's a very frequently-polled state. A new poll with Clinton in the lead could make all the difference in the model.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:51 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


And, seeing as well-known lefty Judge Richard Posner just yesterday slapped down Mike Pence's deplorably callous and racist attempt to discriminate against Syrian entrants based on their national origin, maybe we can have like, one question about how to meet our legal and moral obligation to help the refugees?
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:51 AM on October 4, 2016 [22 favorites]


Anecdote: I'm multi-tasking through a webinar, where someone just talked dropped a reference to Trump's business acumen with regards to taxes, as if it were a given that everyone understood and agreed upon. This isn't a politically-based webinar, but one about site selection for new businesses. WTF, presenter.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:56 AM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


> ZDNet: Why Trump and Brexit are an indictment of the tech industry and its worldview

That seems a bizarre leap, on the other hand I've seen such mountains of bizarre gross geek bro bullshit this last couple of years so who even knows anymore?


I genuinely don't understand why you find this leap bizarre, or even why you find it a leap - the tech industry is the one that's growing fastest, but it also requires specialized training, so those in manufacturing jobs or other non-tech jobs are getting left out - and the resultant job insecurity is making people panicky, and when they get panicky they don't always make good choices, hence Trump and Brexit.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:58 AM on October 4, 2016


@ChuckTingle: all eyes on the haunted painting at city hall, anxious to see if the bloodthirsty ghost of warlord pence will emerge for tonights debate

Yes folks, the good Dr. Tingle will be live tweeting tonight's VICEMAN DEBATE between Ancient Warlord Ghost Pence and the Top Wizard's second in command, Kaine.
posted by Roommate at 9:58 AM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


well-known lefty Judge Richard Posner

Posner is more of a libertarian than a lefty. I'd call his law and economics philosophy downright conservative.
posted by dis_integration at 9:59 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


My understanding is that Posner is not really a leftie, but that he has his own weird mish-mash of Chicago School economics and classic liberalism that guide his judicial principles. Recently, he's been more in line with the Democratic Party, but that's more a product of the Republican Party's self-inflicted prion disease than an expression of his left-wing principles.
posted by palindromic at 9:59 AM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Teachers on the blue (like myself) have talked about this before. This shit is for real.

Not just schools, either. I heard stories from family friends -- professional dancers, hired to perform at a fair -- receiving vile homophobic abuse, and when the abuser was told to shut up and go away by others in the audience, the response was "I can say whatever the hell I want." Never happened before to them. I know "weather isn't climate", but for the moment it feels like open season for bigots.
posted by holgate at 9:59 AM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


i swear dis_integration's comment wasn't there when i previewed, lousy long thread. anyway, jinx!
posted by palindromic at 10:00 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm now thinking of a Get Out The Vote campaign based on hiring all the taco trucks we can on election day and parking them outside the polling stations to give out free tacos.

It wouldn't be the first electoral idea we stole from Australia.
posted by ckape at 10:01 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I keeping reading comments from Trump supporters about the debate tonight calling Pence, the Silver Fox. Is this a nickname he's had from before or something they've given him right now? Regardless they're talking about him like he's Batman and is going to save Trump at the debate tonight.
posted by Jalliah at 10:02 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


i guess it's time to turn in my license to commit sarcasm. Sad.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:02 AM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Eric Trump walks down...streets? Pffft.

Well, occasionally you do have to get from the building to your limo.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:03 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I keeping reading comments from Trump supporters about the debate tonight calling Pence, the Silver Fox. Is this a nickname he's had from before or something they've given him right now?

If nicknames were something we could export, Trump's fan base actually would be able to end the trade deficit.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:03 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"I can say whatever the hell I want."

"And so can I. I think your views and words are offensive and I want you to go away."

Freedom of speech, not freedom from consequences.

{{{HUGS}}} for anyone dealing with (increased) hate and threats.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:03 AM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


Calling Judge Posner a well-known leftie must have been a joke; the man was appointed by Ronald Reagan. He doesn't suffer fools gladly, though, so he's been harsh on cases brought before him by Pence's administration. Posner has also admitted, commendably, that he was fooled by Indiana's claim that its voter ID law was about preventing "voter fraud" and not suppressing minority voting, so he's looked particularly askance at several cases since.
posted by Gelatin at 10:04 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's okay Tiva, I got it.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:04 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Manufacturing has been in decline for decades for reasons that are fuck all to do with "tech".
posted by Artw at 10:05 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


calling Pence, the Silver Fox

this is a vile slander on roger sterling and hot gray-haired people everywhere.
posted by joyceanmachine at 10:05 AM on October 4, 2016 [34 favorites]


Also, let's keep in mind that Pence was picked as Trump's VP not because he was considered to be the strongest possible option, but rather because he was the best pick of the people who were willing to do the job. The word at the time was that the Trump campaign had had to pass over several other possible candidates before getting to Pence, because they had difficulty finding someone who was willing to publicly hitch his wagon to Trump and bear the fruits of that association for better or for worse. Pence was facing possible humiliation in his re-election bid for the Indiana governorship, and presumably didn't think he had as much to lose.

Tim Kaine, on the other hand, has been on the Democratic VP shortlist for a long time, and was nearly chosen as Obama's running mate back in 2008. He wasn't as flashy as some of Clinton's other potential picks (Elizabeth Warren) but that's just a matter of strategy; it was felt that what Clinton needed was someone steady, solid, and even a little bit boring to balance out the audaciousness of Clinton's bid to become the nation's first woman president. He was absolutely the Clinton campaign's top choice, and I expect he'll get the job done tonight in the debates.

Remember that VPs rarely improve their ticket's poll numbers much, but that they can very easily drag them down. The goal of this debate is for each VP candidate to play defense for his campaign's brand while simultaneously trying to drag down the other campaign's pick and make them into a liability. I think Kaine will be on top of that; all reports are that he has little to hide and little to be ashamed of, while Pence has several areas in which he is distinctly vulnerable.

Also, personally, I am really interested to hear more of what Kaine has to say for himself. I hadn't really heard of him before this election season, but I like what I've read about him so far. I'd like to learn more about him, and I'll be interested to see how he tries to portray himself and what episodes from his life and his political career he chooses to talk about. These debates are often portrayed as something of a sideshow to the presidential ones, but I'll definitely be tuning in for this one.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:05 AM on October 4, 2016 [36 favorites]


If we can make an effort to understand how drug addiction is not necessarily a moral failing ... Maybe we can understand how "Supporting Trump" is also one of those things.

Interestingly, J.D. Vance compares Trumpism to a drug addiction: "Opioid of the Masses: To many, Donald Trump feels good, but he can’t fix America’s growing social and cultural crisis, and the eventual comedown will be harsh."
"What Trump offers is an easy escape from the pain. To every complex problem, he promises a simple solution. He can bring jobs back simply by punishing offshoring companies into submission. As he told a New Hampshire crowd—folks all too familiar with the opioid scourge—he can cure the addiction epidemic by building a Mexican wall and keeping the cartels out. He will spare the United States from humiliation and military defeat with indiscriminate bombing. It doesn’t matter that no credible military leader has endorsed his plan. He never offers details for how these plans will work, because he can’t. Trump’s promises are the needle in America’s collective vein.

The great tragedy is that many of the problems Trump identifies are real, and so many of the hurts he exploits demand serious thought and measured action—from governments, yes, but also from community leaders and individuals. Yet so long as people rely on that quick high, so long as wolves point their fingers at everyone but themselves, the nation delays a necessary reckoning. There is no self-reflection in the midst of a false euphoria. Trump is cultural heroin. He makes some feel better for a bit. But he cannot fix what ails them, and one day they’ll realize it.
It's a tough, because in a broad sense it's possible to have both empathy/fear/disdain for addicts and Trump supporters (and, in the same way, there are varying degrees of suppport/addiction ranging from "a little bit" to a life-wrecking need for another dank meme*. )

I mean, I have empathy for people struggling with addiction problems and I'm all for living-and-let-living, generous rehab availability, and varying degrees of legalization, but I'm still going to cross the street if I encounter some angry tweaker.

(*"Siiiiiiddd, all I wanted was a meeemmme ...")
posted by octobersurprise at 10:07 AM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


I keeping reading comments from Trump supporters about the debate tonight calling Pence, the Silver Fox. Is this a nickname he's had from before or something they've given him right now?

I've lived in Indiana for more than a decade and I've never heard it before.

Regardless they're talking about him like he's Batman and is going to save Trump at the debate tonight.

That sentence makes me want to let loose with a full-on mad-scientist "BWA HA HA!" Even among Pence's supporters here, he's regarded as something of a dim bulb, and he was widely regarded as such a failure that he was well on his way to losing his re-election bid when he jumped to the Trump bandwagon.
posted by Gelatin at 10:08 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I used to think Warhammer 40K was all dark and awful with its dystopian space future of despotic oppression and maxims like "Be strong in your ignorance."

Then I discovered Gary Johnson.

WH40K better up its game, yo.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:08 AM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


calling Pence, the Silver Fox

this is a vile slander on roger sterling and hot gray-haired people everywhere.


I have it on good authority -- Mrs. H Herself -- that the real "Silver Fox" is, in fact, Cooper Anderson.

Not sure if that makes Kathie Gryphon "The Red Fox".
posted by Herodios at 10:09 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is explicitly calling out gaslighting a viable debate or campaign strategy?
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:10 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


this is a vile slander on roger sterling and hot gray-haired people everywhere.

A ha! Totally zoned that a "Silver Fox" is a name for a handsome, grey haired man. And yeah..ew.
posted by Jalliah at 10:10 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]



Pence is more "The Grey Skull" type.
 
posted by Herodios at 10:11 AM on October 4, 2016 [22 favorites]


just yesterday slapped down Mike Pence's deplorably callous and racist attempt to discriminate against Syrian entrants based on their national origin, maybe we can have like, one question about how to meet our legal and moral obligation to help the refugees

Same thing, but for Pence's also recently slapped down attempt to require all fetal remains be buried or cremated. Maybe we can also have like one question about how to meet our legal and moral obligation to provide healthcare for women.

(this is not a complaint about asking about refugees, I would also like that question asked! Just that there are a lot of important topics that these debates never cover, and at least two of them involve callous things that Mike Pence is trying to do)
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:12 AM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


A while ago, I posted an AskMe about inviting Tim Kaine to busk with me. One of the higher-ups at the Boston office advised me to make a video inviting Hillary's running mate and America's dad to busk with me, and my friend Chris and I made a video last week. It just went live, and has been getting some scattered RTs. I'd be honored if any MeFites who love the Replacements, buskers, ukuleles, or Tim Kaine would signal-boost the vid!
posted by pxe2000 at 10:12 AM on October 4, 2016 [43 favorites]


I live in city that's a popular retirement destination. In my neighborhood there's a housing development called Silver Fox Landing. I was SO DISAPPOINTED to find out it wasn't a retirement village.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 10:12 AM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Keepin it 1600 isn't going to post until after the veep debate tonight and I am GOING THROUGH WITHDRAWL. Come on @jonfavs, I need to hear some of that sweet sweet gloating.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:13 AM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Keepin it 1600 isn't going to post until after the veep debate tonight and I am GOING THROUGH WITHDRAWL.

Aren't they doing a live stream before/after like they did for the first debate?
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:15 AM on October 4, 2016


I used to think Warhammer 40K was all dark and awful with its dystopian space future of despotic oppression and maxims like "Be strong in your ignorance."

In the grim darkness of the far future, there are only markets.

For the glory of the Em'prah Invisible Hand!
posted by sparklemotion at 10:16 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


pxe2000: I'd be honored if any MeFites who love the Replacements, buskers, ukuleles, or Tim Kaine would signal-boost the vid!

Did what I could. Good luck!!
posted by wenestvedt at 10:18 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I presume that Kaine has at least one staffer whose sole job for the last month has been to game out a "You're no Jack Kennedy" line for tonight.
posted by Etrigan at 10:19 AM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


@AliceOllstein: .@GovGaryJohnson just told @MSNBC that his lack of geographical knowledge is a plus bc you can't get into a war w/ a country you can't find

[real]

Video
posted by chris24 at 10:19 AM on October 4, 2016 [41 favorites]


sio42: those Kaine clips are amazing. he's no Biden but he's got the calm stern no-nonsense sort of grandpa thing going on. or maybe high school principal. someone you respect even if he has to give you a talking to.

SCOUTMASTER KAINE.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:19 AM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


I presume that Kaine has at least one staffer whose sole job for the last month has been to game out a "You're no Jack Kennedy" line for tonight.
Governor, I knew Skeletor.
I fought against Skeletor.
Skeletor was an arch-enemy of mine.

Governor -- you're no Skeletor.
posted by Herodios at 10:23 AM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


@AliceOllstein: .@GovGaryJohnson just told @MSNBC that his lack of geographical knowledge is a plus bc you can't get into a war w/ a country you can't find

Oh God, Stoner Bart Simpson is still going to get some votes, won't he?
posted by maudlin at 10:25 AM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Monmouth PA - Clinton +10
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:25 AM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


I presume that Kaine has at least one staffer whose sole job for the last month has been to game out a "You're no Jack Kennedy" line for tonight.

PENCE: "I am outraged!"

KAINE: "Hello, Outraged, I'm Dad!"
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:26 AM on October 4, 2016 [74 favorites]


Frankly, while I am an atheist Jew, I sort of want to see a Bible Bee tonight. Let the two of them duke out how they each see their campaigns in light of the Scriptures.

Pence is Evangelical, or so he says. He hasn't really shared his denomination. "After being elected governor of Indiana in 2012, he (Pence) suddenly became reticent. He told Fehrman his family was “looking for a church.” It’s not known whether they ever found one." He apparently brings his bible to meetings to look for policy answers.

Meanwhile, Kaine and his wife, Anne Holton attend St. Elizabeth Catholic Church in a poor, predominantly black working-class neighborhood in Richmond, Virginia. It is the same church that they have been attending for 30 years, and where they were married in 1984. He founded a men's bible study at the church. He was a missionary in Honduras (which has its own issues - but he taught welding and carpentry) and has served the Church for his entire life. Don't tell me he doesn't know the Bible backwards and forwards.

I think, despite the right taking Kaine to task for his death penalty and abortion views, Pence would have a much more difficult time squaring that circle.

Ultimately, I do hope they talk policy, but I think Kaine would pound Pence into the ground.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:29 AM on October 4, 2016 [31 favorites]


Tim Kaine knows how to weld? *swoon*
posted by drezdn at 10:30 AM on October 4, 2016 [28 favorites]


@AliceOllstein: .@GovGaryJohnson just told @MSNBC that his lack of geographical knowledge is a plus bc you can't get into a war w/ a country you can't find

It is of course well known that careless talk costs lives, but the full scale of the problem is not always appreciated. For instance, a human (see Earth) named Gary Johnson who, because of an insane election season, was one of the three most important human beings in the hemisphere at the time, once said "You can't get into a war with a country you can't find." At the very moment that Gary said this, a freak wormhole opened up in the fabric of the space-time continuum and carried his words far far back in time across almost infinite reaches of space to the White House in 2001, explaining why George W. Bush was once heard to say to no-one in particular, "challenge accepted."
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:31 AM on October 4, 2016 [77 favorites]


@GovGaryJohnson just told @MSNBC that his lack of geographical knowledge is a plus bc you can't get into a war w/ a country you can't find

Wrong Way Corrigan is running for President.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:32 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm now super-interested to know the whole story of who's trolling Assange. Someone had to have promised him some prime dirt on Clinton so good it made him wet his pants. And then kept pushing back the delivery date again and again with plausible excuses while Assange hyped the whole thing. He must have EXPLODED with rage when it failed, once again, to arrive yesterday.
posted by ctmf at 10:33 AM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Don't forget - Trump said he'd leave foreign and domestic policy to his VP.

So that's something to bear in mind tonight. Looking at the actual Presidential nominee.
posted by Devonian at 10:33 AM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


Step aside, Vagenda of Manocide - we have a new contender in the ring for silliest pseudo-feminist Republican neologism, from Scott Lemieux at LGM - BREAKING! Donald Trump is an Asshole Who Hates Women:
However! Here at LGM we strive to be Fair and Balanced and to present Opposing Viewpoints. Perhaps we can turn to the list of SUPERGENIUSES for Donald Trump, which among various frauds, Nazi apologists, and felons includes Pajamas Media founder and the man who made Pauline Kael quit film criticism, Mr. Roger L. Simon. I’m sure his thoughts on the subject will be highly illuminating:
And as for the sexism, please-louise, it’s the reverse. If anything, Trump’s a closet gynosupremacist. He’s nuts about women (well, except Megyn Kelly). Ivanka and Kellyanne Conway are the dominant figures in his campaign and are likely to have key positions in a Trump administration. I’d take either of them over Valerie Jarrett, by a long shot.
GYNOSUPREMACIST IS A THING FOR REAL, says Simon.
posted by palindromic at 10:34 AM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


If anyone is in need of a little comic relief, check out the results of MoveOn's Laughter Trumps Hate contest. (Some videos NSFW.)
posted by Soliloquy at 10:35 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


he doesn't come across as a politician looking for easy one liners.

If I can be a Kaine booster for one more comment, I'll point at this bit earlier in the HRC speech where he talks about the 'north star' of an aspirational target. Watch that 90 seconds and see what it really means to revere the work of the founding fathers. Not as infallible gods whose words can't be changed, but as people who did good in their time and who need us to keep improving on their work. Yet another place where the dems are taking the message the 'pubs have been waving around for decades, shines it up, and makes it a liberal progress message.

He hits that north star thing a few more times and it's just so nice to see another politician keeping up the hope and improvement message. If the various voices that say the more optimistic campaign tends to win are right then I think Kaine is gonna stomp Pence without ever getting his boots muddy. And he's not much of a one-liner politician but it's pretty impressive, I think, how many places you can dip into that keynote and find a good 90 second run that works well on its own and communicates a good message.

I think, despite the right taking Kaine to task for his death penalty and abortion views, Pence would have a much more difficult time squaring that circle.

I wonder if Kaine is the person who can finally jujitsu the right on the death penalty and really hurt them on the place that it is madness they haven't turned on it already: the fact that it is an irreversible action for an imperfect government to take. Conservatives have been telling us they love their country but don't trust it for much of my lifetime. And they shouldn't trust it to do something that can't ever be made right again when it's wrong. Perhaps Kaine and his conviction that taking life is wrong can be the person who makes that message work.
posted by phearlez at 10:36 AM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


Tim Kaine knows how to weld? *swoon*

He grew up working in the small metalworking shop his father owned.
posted by peeedro at 10:37 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


need a tim kaine flashdance ad STAT
posted by dismas at 10:38 AM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


Tim Kaine knows how to weld? *swoon*

Well yes, but remember that in the context of elective politics, "weld" is a verb meaning "to whisper the correct answers to Gary Johnson on live television".
 
posted by Herodios at 10:38 AM on October 4, 2016 [49 favorites]


Anthony Bourdain says no to dining with Donald Trump: ‘Absolutely f—ing not’:
Anthony Bourdain dined with President Obama last week on the season premiere of CNN’s “Parts Unknown,” but don’t expect him to break bread with the “loathsome” Donald Trump anytime soon.

“Absolutely f—ing not,” the globe-trotting foodie told TheWrap when asked if he would care for a private dining session with The Donald.

“I’ve been a New Yorker most of my life, [and] for better or worse Mr. Trump is a New Yorker,” Bourdain said. “We know him well here. We’ve watched how he does business and we’ve watched him say things and then we’ve seen whether or not he did those things, we have seen how he treats the people he does business with. I would give the same answer that I would have given 10 years ago, when he was just as loathsome,” he added.
posted by palindromic at 10:39 AM on October 4, 2016 [71 favorites]


@AliceOllstein: .@GovGaryJohnson just told @MSNBC that his lack of geographical knowledge is a plus bc you can't get into a war w/ a country you can't find

His anti-terrorism plan is to put up a sign reading "America that way -->" at our borders.
posted by cmfletcher at 10:40 AM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'm now super-interested to know the whole story of who's trolling Assange.

I'm going to put down $5 on it being Marla Maples.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:41 AM on October 4, 2016 [24 favorites]


I know everybody's all about Goofy Dad Tim Kaine, but I really want him to come out swinging tonight.

Less Goofy Dad Tim Kaine, and more Big Daddy Kaine?
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:50 AM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


@AliceOllstein: .@GovGaryJohnson just told @MSNBC that his lack of geographical knowledge is a plus bc you can't get into a war w/ a country you can't find

His anti-terrorism plan is to put up a sign reading "America that way -->" at our borders.


Nah, that only works if you know written English. You can't be tricked by a sign you can't read.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:50 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]




His anti-terrorism plan is to put up a sign reading "America that way -->" at our borders.

That sign lacks liberty. As a libertarian, surely it would read "America that way, if you please. You are also free to not read this sign if that pleases you, but our strong commitment to property rights demands you not steal this sign. Also there's nothing in the Constitution that says the government is allowed to put up signs, so we feel pretty bad about having printed this sign, but maybe a private sign-posting charity will start doing the job instead. Anyway, you're totally free to follow this sign or not, entirely up to you, but we don't know Aleppo is, so there's a non-zero chance that this sign could actually take you there."
posted by zachlipton at 10:50 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


calling Pence, the Silver Fox

this is a vile slander on roger sterling and hot gray-haired people everywhere.


This is the grossest nickname assigned to a gross person since the #VideogameGate people started calling Christina Hoff Sommers "Based Mom."
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:52 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Less Goofy Dad Tim Kaine, and more Big Daddy Kaine?

So he kustomizes hot-rods, too?

He's a Renaissance Dad!
 
posted by Herodios at 10:52 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've always heard Anderson Cooper referred to as a Silver Fox, but never Pence. That's an insult to Cooper.
posted by Twain Device at 10:54 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Nah, that only works if you know written English. You can't be tricked by a sign you can't read.

Didn't anyone tell you that these "other languages" are just made up ways for foreign types to poke fun at innocent, unsuspecting Americans? after the benighted tourist walks away, they go back to talking amongst themselves in a vaguely Maine-ish accent

[fake, probably]

posted by tivalasvegas at 10:55 AM on October 4, 2016


My husband was born and raised liberal Catholic, was an alter boy, the whole deal and even though he's an atheist now, woe betide the street preacher whom he decides to get into a scripture battle with. Protestants think that Catholics don't know the bible. They are quite wrong.

Which is to say, sign me up for a Pence/Kaine scripture throw down.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:58 AM on October 4, 2016 [29 favorites]


phearlez: I wonder if Kaine is the person who can finally jujitsu the right on the death penalty and really hurt them on the place that it is madness they haven't turned on it already: the fact that it is an irreversible action for an imperfect government to take.

Fingers crossed, but not holding my breath, though I would love for this to happen. There's a governor-supported push to reinstate the death penalty in New Mexico during a special session that was initiated to discuss the state's budget shortfalls due to the sharp decline in gas and oil revenues. Oh, and there's a push to increase the crimes covered in the state's Three Strikes law, which would cost the state millions more. Good job on focusing on the economy.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:58 AM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I've always heard Anderson Cooper referred to as a Silver Fox, but never Pence. That's an insult to Cooper.

Surely Pence would be the Silver-Plated Fox. At best.
posted by mazola at 10:59 AM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Big Daddy Kaine?
Ain't no half steppin', Pence.
posted by penduluum at 10:59 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I know we've joked that the Trumps are like the Bluths before, but, like seriously, they have Bob Loblaw defending their shady real estate business on TV; they're accused of light treason; they have a fake charity; they use their businesses as personal bank accounts; they're racist af; the kids are mostly incompetent and just as shady as the dad; the patriarch's longtime mistress holds the evidence that could take them down; they give shady political donations and wage racist political campaigns and try to get rich off of building a wall across the Mexico border; etc etc.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:02 AM on October 4, 2016 [82 favorites]


"Say goodbye to THESE, Donald!"
posted by Huffy Puffy at 11:04 AM on October 4, 2016 [33 favorites]


John Lewis on the Danger of Trump Supporters:
"When I see the people that react to Donald Trump's words at those rallies, I see the same look in their eyes that I saw [in the eyes of Sheriff Clark and his posse]—a look that says, 'you're not a part of us, you're not a part of the American family, you come from someplace else.' When Trump talks about building a wall, to lock certain individuals out, people rallied. They screamed and yelled. It reminded me of some of the rallies that I saw on television for [infamous racist/segregationist Alabama governor] George Wallace during the '60s. It makes me somewhat sad. I thought for many, many years that our country had become much more hopeful, much more optimistic, and we had come to a place where we saw unbelievable changes. I've said over and over again that we have witnessed what I like to call a nonviolent revolution in America during the last 50 years, a revolution of values, a revolution of ideas. I think the Trump campaign is trying to take us back to another place, another time, and we've come so far, made so much progress, I don't think we can afford to go back. We have to go forwards, and continue to be what Dr. King called 'the beloved community,' where we lay down the burden of division, the burden of hate, and create an American community at peace with itself."
Lewis' words are interspersed with pages from March, the graphic novel trilogy he co-created.
posted by palindromic at 11:05 AM on October 4, 2016 [40 favorites]


But they don't celebrate Cuatro de Cinco.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:05 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh yeah the Trumps are most definitely the Bluth family, if the Bluths awoke to find themselves trapped in an episode of Black Mirror.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:05 AM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


How long before it is revealed that Trump built palaces for Saddam in Iraq.
posted by humanfont at 11:06 AM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Holy shit, melissasaurus. That is a very compelling list of comparisons. But I still like the Bluths even though they are awful people. Being fictional gives them that advantage.
posted by defenestration at 11:06 AM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


How long before it is revealed that Trump built palaces for Saddam in Iraq.

Not a guy you want to screw on the invoices, so I'm guessing Trump didn't try.
posted by Etrigan at 11:09 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


What I wouldn't give to see Donald Trump, Jr. on a Segway.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:10 AM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Motherboy XXX
posted by cmfletcher at 11:12 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also, while I'm in wish-fulfillment mode, I want a Department of Democratic Reform and I want John Lewis to be its Secretary-For-Life.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:13 AM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


At least Trump had the good sense not to do the chicken dance in front of President Peña Nieto, it's much more inflammatory in Mexico.
posted by peeedro at 11:13 AM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


"The Final Countdown" does seem appropriate.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 11:13 AM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


I know I'm OLD, but I remember when "The Silver Fox" was the title given to pop/country crooner Charlie Rich. And "no one knows what goes on behind closed doors".
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:14 AM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


But they don't celebrate Cuatro de Cinco.

Well, we know they don't want taco trucks on every corner, so maybe they bought up all of the taco ingredients to make taco bowls so that the trucks wouldn't have anything to sell.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:15 AM on October 4, 2016


The nice thing about the Bluths is that in addition to constantly getting their comeuppance, they only ever cheated fictional characters and not real people.
posted by ckape at 11:16 AM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Twitter tells me that today is #NationalTacoDay. I really hope this can be worked into the debate somehow.
posted by zachlipton at 11:17 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


You have to wonder if Arrested Development creator Mitchell Hurwitz spent much time in a Trumpish Tower...
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:19 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


My husband was born and raised liberal Catholic, was an alter boy, the whole deal and even though he's an atheist now, woe betide the street preacher whom he decides to get into a scripture battle with. Protestants think that Catholics don't know the bible. They are quite wrong.

I was talking to my lovely wife the other day after some back-and-forth with some anti-vaxxers who showed up on a doctor friend's Facebook reminder to get the flu shot. Their arguments were terrible -- wouldn't accept the CDC as sources, wouldn't say why, but that doesn't matter because they wouldn't accept any evidence. I pointed out to my wife that I'd been educated by Jesuits, and those guys taught us to think critically, and to dislike lack of intellectual rigor. I don't know what they're teaching at Liberty University or whatever, but it's pretty clear -- as if this entire election didn't make it more so -- that evidence is less than orthodoxy. Which is fine as long as you're preaching to the choir, but it leaves some folks woefully unprepared to defend their positions against even the mildest scrutiny.
posted by Gelatin at 11:20 AM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


Cant wait for Tim Kaine to show up at tonight's veep debate with a trunkload of Little Caesars and two-liters of pop for everyone in attendance.

Nope, he's definitely bringing tacos.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:20 AM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wow, PEC now has HRC with 234 EV safe, up 18 just from yesterday. This is the highest i've seen that number and jives with the probabilities tipping close to 90%. florida must be looking more and more like a win!
posted by OHenryPacey at 11:21 AM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]



Need a #NationalTacoTruckDay too. I vote for June 14.
posted by Jalliah at 11:21 AM on October 4, 2016


calling Pence, the Silver Fox

this is a vile slander on roger sterling and hot gray-haired people everywhere.

I have it on good authority -- Mrs. H Herself -- that the real "Silver Fox" is, in fact, Cooper Anderson.


Trump Supporters, I've served silver foxes, I know from silver foxes. Silver foxes are friends of mine. Governor Pence is no silver fox.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:24 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Need a #NationalTacoTruckDay too. I vote for June 14.

November 9th.
posted by Etrigan at 11:24 AM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump’s a closet gynosupremacist.

Bet you five bucks he can't pronounce that, and also thinks it's a really big type of gyro.
posted by emjaybee at 11:24 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


This is the highest i've seen that number and jives with the probabilities

Jibe. The word is jibe.
posted by rocketman at 11:25 AM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Wow, PEC now has HRC with 234 EV safe, up 18 just from yesterday.

Well, at the weekend Roger Stone DID say Hillary's campaign would be over by Wednesday.

Perspicacious chap, that Stone.
posted by Devonian at 11:25 AM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


I remember when "The Silver Fox" was the title given to pop/country crooner Charlie Rich. And "no one knows what goes on behind closed doors".

It isn't fair to Charlie Rich, but lots of his hits work for Trump: "A Woman Left Lonely," "The Most Beautiful Girl," "My Elusive Dreams," "Every Time You Touch Me (I Get High)," and especially, "The Fool Strikes Again."
posted by octobersurprise at 11:25 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Less Goofy Dad Tim Kaine, and more Big Daddy Kaine?

It's a mistake to think that these are somehow two different aspects.

Just watch any "goofy dad" when something threatens their kids...

Pence is threatening America and Tim Kaine is America's goofy dad. I'm making extra popcorn tonight.
posted by VTX at 11:27 AM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


How long before it is revealed that Trump built palaces for Saddam in Iraq.

He at least did the interior decoration.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:28 AM on October 4, 2016


>This is the highest i've seen that number and jives with the probabilities

Jibe. The word is jibe.


No this is the new move where you recreate the JCPL with your hands. As your hand rises, your face gets more panicky, etc.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:29 AM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


The Right misinformation machine has reached its logical conclusion, and here we sit with about 1/3 of the nation so primed by Fox News, Infowars and whatever else to reject not just facts but the actual basis of our collective reality. America has never been great about promoting critical thinking in our educational system, but we sure know how to gin up a fake version of the real world complete with its own "logic" and "evidence" in the form of spoon-fed conspiracy theories. The people who buy into this alternative system are so thoroughly inoculated against any evidence to the contrary that I don't know if anything can bring them back from the brink.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 11:29 AM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


While walking the dog and toddler this morning, I espied the first Clinton-Kaine sign in my neighborhood that is not also in my yard! So the ratio for my area is now 3:2, advantage Trump, but I suspect something more like the inverse in terms of actual voting.

I also saw a dude on his phone in his front yard, sort of staring in disgusted contempt at the Trump sign in his neighbor's yard. I gave the sign a disappointed shake of my head and a thumbs down in solidarity. He gave me a thumb's up, which I did not count as a Clinton sign.
posted by palindromic at 11:29 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Governor Pence is no silver fox.

More like the Silver Jackal?
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:30 AM on October 4, 2016


The net result was the client was happy because she thought she was ripping us off and we were happy because she was actually paying us a 15+% bonus for dealing with her attempts to rip us off.

Please joint me in a toast to Mitheral's dad. Because damn.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:30 AM on October 4, 2016 [44 favorites]


silverfish
posted by cmfletcher at 11:31 AM on October 4, 2016 [27 favorites]


PEC has the meta-margin and expected EV vs. time, but do they have the top-line random drift and bayesian probabilities plotted over time? Those seem to have been really stable for quite a while.
posted by ctmf at 11:31 AM on October 4, 2016


Pence is what happens when a Ken doll is allowed to age naturally - the yellow hair shield goes silver all at once.
posted by palindromic at 11:32 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


More apropos Charlie Rich, from his Sun period:

Everything I Do Is Wrong
Who Will the Next Fool Be?
Easy Money
posted by maudlin at 11:33 AM on October 4, 2016


Frankly, while I am an atheist Jew, I sort of want to see a Bible Bee tonight.

Me too. One thing fascinating about this matchup is that both candidates have been outspoken about how their policies are informed by faith. That's a far cry from the presidential debate between the relentlessly secular Trump and the thoughtfully devout but circumspect Clinton.

Of course, Kaine and Pence have pretty much nothing in common policywise, and it doesn't seem like they interpret their faith in remotely comparable ways. But it could be interesting to watch Kaine's Christian charity face off against Pence's Christian tribalism.
posted by jackbishop at 11:34 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Please joint me in a toast to Mitheral's dad.

Not during the workday, Mr Johnson.
posted by phearlez at 11:34 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Herodios: Governor -- you're no Skeletor.

That's because we have Rick Scott, right?

(In my mind, he's skeletal because he thinks he won't age if he's literally skin and bones. "I won't wrinkle if I can't wrinkle, right?")
posted by filthy light thief at 11:34 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The: "I'm crossing my fingers for a new Ohio poll to come out today and flip the state blue in 538's polls-only model. It's been trending that way for a while, and is currently hovering juuuuuust on the red side of 50/50. If the blue part of The Snake gets longer, I feel like it'll mean a lot for Clinton's chances. "

Polls only now has Ohio at 52.7% Clinton.

And I love the snake; it's a great infographic.
posted by Mitheral at 11:35 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Interestingly, J.D. Vance compares Trumpism to a drug addiction: "Opioid of the Masses: To many, Donald Trump feels good, but he can’t fix America’s growing social and cultural crisis, and the eventual comedown will be harsh."

The Right misinformation machine has reached its logical conclusion, and here we sit with about 1/3 of the nation so primed by Fox News, Infowars and whatever else to reject not just facts but the actual basis of our collective reality

Yeah, if Trump supporters are like drug addicts, I'd say it's actually right wing media fantasies that are their drug, the conspiracy theories, the righteous indignation. Trump is just a pusher. You can get awfully high on righteous indignation, and can become delusional...
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:36 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Michelle joining Kaine with the dad jokes.

@Philip_Elliott: "This is not an Apprentice-ship," Mrs. Obama tells audience in Charlotte.
posted by chris24 at 11:37 AM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


@Nate_Cohn: Easy way to look at post-debate polls:
Trump probably needs all of PA/NC/FL
PA: C+10, C+9, C+4
FL: C+5, C+4, C+2, C+1
NC: C+6, C+3, C+2, C+1
posted by chris24 at 11:38 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


PEC has the meta-margin and expected EV vs. time, but do they have the top-line random drift and bayesian probabilities plotted over time? Those seem to have been really stable for quite a while.

I don't see a plot, but i would disagree with that assertion, I remember the drift/bayesian being low 70's just before the debate and the upward creep has been steady but slow.

As for the jive/jibe, i saw it too late to edit for spelling, but yes, jibe is the word i was after.
posted by OHenryPacey at 11:39 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Frankly, while I am an atheist Jew, I sort of want to see a Bible Bee tonight.

That seems like it would be an exercise in futility, given that very few folks on the left care about the biblical literacy of their candidates, and very few folks on the right would recognize the messages "love your enemy" or "give all your stuff to the poor" as coming from the bible.
posted by Mayor West at 11:39 AM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Yeah, if Trump supporters are like drug addicts, I'd say it's actually right wing media fantasies that are their drug, the conspiracy theories, the righteous indignation. Trump is just a pusher. You can get awfully high on righteous indignation, and can become delusional...

Which is why Limbaugh and Fox News and their ilk have to keep pushing the outrage button harder, and about more and more outlandish things. The audience develops a tolerance and won't stay tuned.
posted by Gelatin at 11:39 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


More like the Silver Jackal?

More like the Silver Jagoff.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:40 AM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I would absolutely vote for Gary Johnson to star in a sitcom about a hapless dad that is sentenced to be President of the United States by a judge because he ran over the White House garden and couldn't afford to fix it.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 11:41 AM on October 4, 2016 [28 favorites]


This is the highest i've seen that number and jives with the probabilities

Jibe. The word is jibe.


Whatever swings your boom.
 
posted by Herodios at 11:42 AM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


here we sit with about 1/3 of the nation so primed by Fox News, Infowars and whatever else to reject not just facts but the actual basis of our collective reality

Which makes the reports that Deplorable Donald is planning a "Trump TV" network as his "post-electoral-failure" plan sound... well, too smart for Trump.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:44 AM on October 4, 2016




So on the tax thing, I was just thinking about how unfair this feels from the point of view of someone struggling.

After I became disabled and unable to work, we racked up too much debt. Some medical, some credit cards from emergency expenses. We expected to be able to pay it off once I got approved for disability, which I never did. So we learned to survive on 50% of our previous income.

So eventually we worked out deals with debt holders and got a bunch of debt forgiven in one year. And all that debt that was forgiven counted as taxable income. So in the year my husband lost his job we had $10,000 of extra income to pay taxes on, when we never actually had that money. It was like imaginary money that we theoretically made because otherwise we'd have owed it, but it pushed us into a higher tax bracket and we ended up owing the IRS a lot, and having to get a payment plan, etc.

All while having no job between the two of us.

So the fact that Donald Trump can fail at business and pay NOTHING? That's just so deeply offensive to my sense of fairness.
posted by threeturtles at 11:46 AM on October 4, 2016 [73 favorites]


This is the highest i've seen that number and jives with the probabilities
Jibe. The word is jibe.

Hey, that belongs in the 'pedents' thread.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:48 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


In a Trump-free election, Pence might not seem so mainstream:
...in another election — one without Trump’s constant controversies or his near-prescient ability to keep himself perpetually front-and-center — Pence might not be regarded as a force for normalcy. Over a long career as a conservative radio host and elected official, Pence has made his share of controversial statements.

...a longstanding commitment to small government and social conservatism, even when that meant tacking to the right of the Republican mainstream. And when he does that, Pence has both a tendency to deploy more colorful rhetoric and to tread into territory that his critics call deeply hostile.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:49 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


David Kay Johnson is a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporter who may have figured out at least part of the mystery of how Trump booked his billion dollar loss in 1995. He hasn't explained how Trump was able to book losses on borrowed money but he has figured out how Trump was able to avoid booking forgiven debt as income.

The loophole Trump used is an amendment made to Section 108 of the tax code in 1993 concerning debt forgiveness, just two years before Trump's big tax write off. The amendment allows real estate developers to avoid paying income tax on forgiven debt but instead marking down the book value (basis) of their property by the amount of forgiven debt, reducing future depreciation deductions. Essentially, this means instead of paying for the forgiven debt on Trump's income taxes in one year, he gets to spread the tax burden out over the life of the property.

This isn't a freebie. The depreciation deduction is a really big deal in improving the cash flow of real estate development, so if you are giving that up to avoid paying taxes on forgiven debt in the present, you have significantly reduced the investment value of the real estate for the future. Trump's future taxes would have been significantly increased.

But Trump avoided this again by, for the first and only time in his career, issuing public stock in his casino business. So effectively he transferred his new tax burden over to unsuspecting investors. In 2004, Trump's new casino stock corporation filed bankruptcy, partly due to the cash flow reduction from the previous depreciation elimination. This is important because if Trump did not fully disclose this tax burden to potential investors in the prospectus for his initial public offering, that would be securities fraud.

So Trump really is a genius at grifting. On the same casino property he first stiffed the banks who forgave his debt, then he bilked the stockholders who invested in this property by misrepresenting its value, next he collected millions in salary from the stockholders to manage the property, and finally the corporation declared bankruptcy and he washed his hands of the whole deal with no personal loss. All the while paying no taxes.

Trump isn't a builder or investor in America. He's just a high-stakes grifter.
posted by JackFlash at 11:50 AM on October 4, 2016 [120 favorites]


Of course, Kaine and Pence have pretty much nothing in common policywise, and it doesn't seem like they interpret their faith in remotely comparable ways. But it could be interesting to watch Kaine's Christian charity face off against Pence's Christian tribalism.

Part of me would like to see Kaine demonstrate the possibility of theological traditions that aren't horrible rightwing nutjobbery. But as a person that believes in multi-confessional secular government I would rather they engage in a conversation based on the common principles that connect Americans across philosophical and theological lines.

On the other hand, Catholic theology has traditionally held that "All truth is God's truth"* -- in secular language, that true things are true regardless of whether you come at them from a theological way-of-knowing or a secular way-of-knowing. So if the Bible says "yeah there was this flood and all the animals got on a ship" and geology says "Um... about that", you have to use the brain God gave you to reconcile those things in a way that does justice to both ways of knowing, since both Holy Scripture and human reason are ultimately trustworthy paths to truth.

Protestant theology has had trouble squaring this circle because it historically had an anthropology that taught that specific, direct divine inspiration is necessary for humans to be able to rightly interpret scientific findings. (To put it crudely, if you don't have Jesus in your heart, you'll fuck up your science because original sin.) So that would be an... uh, illuminating conversation.

But again, not a conversation that's specifically germane to an election debate in a secular republic.

*I find that while many conservative Protestants affirm this in theory, in practice they interpret it in such a way as to be fairly meaningless
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:50 AM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


So, I was listening to the KERA Think podcast, and she was interviewing Michael Kirk who filmed PBS's The Choice documentary. Anyway, he was talking about how privileged Donny was, growing up in a mansion. In Queens. And I was all, wait...I've been in Queens. There are no mansions in Queens. I mean, there's some nice houses, but when I think mansion, I think this.

This is Donny's boyhood home. It has been on the market for half a year. I fail to understand how a 2500 square foot street-fronting mostly zero lot property constitutes a mansion in anyone's description. I mean, it's not all that important, except that "mansion" has a different connotative value than "suburban house big enough for the kids to all have their own room".
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 11:51 AM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Open Mike: Presidential debates co-chair Mike McCurry:
It's better to show up and do a full sound check if you're a candidate for president of the United States.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:54 AM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Thinking about right-wing-outrage addiction and drug addiction, I looked up the county-by-county electoral map for the 2012 presidential election and, from that "Unnecessariat" article we discussed a while ago, a map of overdose deaths per capita by county in 2014. That looks like a disturbingly large correlation, to me. (Same with the suicide map.) The "Unnecessariat" article also links this report showing that "county by county, where life expectancy is dropping survivors are voting for Trump.")

Now I feel like it is kind of in bad taste, and yet maybe more literally true than I thought, to compare addiction to right wing fantasies with drug addiction. If they are this highly correlated, they probably share some of the same causes.
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:55 AM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


He's just a high-stakes grifter.

A what now?
posted by uncleozzy at 11:55 AM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kansas is down 60 million dollars on its projections three months in.

Remember kids: This is the Trump tax plan at work.
posted by Talez at 11:55 AM on October 4, 2016 [28 favorites]


it leaves some folks woefully unprepared to defend their positions against even the mildest scrutiny.

"take your stinking scrutiny and your billion year old earth and your evolution and your fake moon landing and stick it where the sun don't shine."
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 11:57 AM on October 4, 2016


Remember kids: This is the Trump tax plan at work.

And also that of "serious, honest conservative wonk" Paul Ryan.
posted by Gelatin at 11:59 AM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Open Mike: Presidential debates co-chair Mike McCurry

Wow that guy must love seafood because he cannot chew with his mouth closed.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 11:59 AM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


tivalasvegas: Part of me would like to see Kaine demonstrate the possibility of theological traditions that aren't horrible rightwing nutjobbery. But as a person that believes in multi-confessional secular government I would rather they engage in a conversation based on the common principles that connect Americans across philosophical and theological lines.

You might enjoy this interview with Kaine on NPR (September 16, 2016)
Steve Inskeep: I just watched a speech in which you quoted the Bible, and referred to your Catholicism, which you've done often. To what extent have you had to struggle with when to follow your faith in your public life and when not to do that?

Sen. Tim Kaine: I think if you're a person of faith, personal opinion: If you're a person of faith, you're going to struggle. Even if you're not in public life, you're going to struggle. Because the commands of love your neighbor as yourself, not easy. You know. And who is my neighbor? Not just my neighbor but somebody I don't even know. That's not an easy command. It's very difficult. So I think you always have to struggle with it.

And in public life, yeah, you do struggle. But I do feel very strongly that my Catholicism is about the way I live and the rules that I follow. And even if I, even if they're hard or even if I don't necessarily agree, it's the rules that I follow.

But I don't think my job as a public official is to make everybody else follow the Catholic Church's teaching, whatever their religious background or lack of a religious background. That First Amendment again, it's there for a reason, and it says that not only that you can worship as you choose or not. It also says we won't have an established religion. We will not put one set of religious doctrines higher than others.
There's a bit more, but I'll cut it there. I really appreciated hearing Kaine's views on religion, because they mirror my own (views, not religious beliefs): practice what you preach, but don't push your beliefs on others.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [25 favorites]


Still stunning to me that Trump spent almost an entire week picking a fight with Alicia Machado with six weeks left in the election.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


If they are this highly correlated, they probably share some of the same causes.

Inferring meaningful correlations after eyeballing a map is a baaaad idea.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Which is to say, sign me up for a Pence/Kaine scripture throw down.

I know this is all mostly jokey but it's persisting in the thread so I feel the need to assert that I for one am not going to start disregarding the separation of church and state just because churchyness factor favors my preferred candidate. Speaking as someone who also cringes whenever a political leader utters the now seemingly-requisite "...and God bless the United States of America!!!!" line at the end of a major speech.
posted by aught at 12:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


I'm hoping for Kaine to contrast how much Jesus talked about homosexuality and abortion vs paying taxes.
posted by ckape at 12:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


how much Jesus talked about homosexuality and abortion vs paying taxes.

My upthread qualms notwithstanding I may cream myself if Kaine utters the phrase "Render unto Caesar..." tonight.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]




And divorce. I seem to remember JC was pretty clear on that one.
posted by Devonian at 12:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Now I feel like it is kind of in bad taste, and yet maybe more literally true than I thought, to compare addiction to right wing fantasies with drug addiction. If they are this highly correlated, they probably share some of the same causes.

I have been thinking about Trump supporters through the lens of anomie (and Durkheim's Suicide) for while now, and it sort of fits:
[Anomie is] characterized by a rapid change of the standards or values of societies (often erroneously referred to as normlessness),* and an associated feeling of alienation and purposelessness. He believed that anomie is common when the surrounding society has undergone significant changes in its economic fortunes, whether for better or for worse and, more generally, when there is a significant discrepancy between the ideological theories and values commonly professed and what was actually achievable in everyday life.**
*not actually rapid, but they've been able to live in a protected bubble for the past 40 years, so they've not felt the slow societal transition towards acceptance of increased social justice; it feels rapid to them [see, e.g., "There was no racism before Obama took office"]

**They've been told to do XYZ and they'd receive indicators ABC of "stable happy life" - but this was a lie, because...well, capitalism....but also because the world changes and what worked in 1960 might not work in 2016, and they've been given no tools (like education on how to engage in critical thinking or exposure to non-able-bodied-cis-straight-white-male life stories) to cope with those changes.
posted by melissasaurus at 12:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]



I listened to this on the way home and debated about making it a post. It was super interesting and thoughtful. I think it is relevant to themes in this election and they do talk about it at Trump at one point. Decided to just post a link here in case people would be interested.

CBC Radio Ideas: The Enright Files on America's Culture of Violence
Interviews with Andrew Solomon, Rebecca Solnit, Patrica Williams and Saul Cornell.
posted by Jalliah at 12:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


What? Trump didn't hatch out of a golden egg with the choirs of angels waiting to place the Winner's crown on his infant head? Sad. Starter houses are for losers.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 12:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm hoping for Kaine to contrast how much Jesus talked about homosexuality and abortion vs paying taxes.

I'm not, and I would be kinda surprised to see Kaine go that way too. He's my Senator and was my Governor but I never much sought him out, appearance-wise. So my experience with his speaking isn't super deep. But I never got the impression he was one to use his religion to advance political ends, for good or bad. When I have seen him speak about his religion it's been about how it informs him and his choices, but not how it shapes his political beliefs. So I feel like using it to push some portion of it would be inconsistent with how he's kept up a pro-choice stance and how he agreed to accept the death penalty as a thing that Virginia had during his stint as governor.

So dropping that sort of thing in the debates would seem a little like cherry-picking to me. I'd rather he just defended taxes from an ethical and fairness stance.
posted by phearlez at 12:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Just to note, because getting these things right is IMPORTANT: Rick Scott isn't Skeletor. Rick Scott is Bat Boy, people. Bat Boy. It is also permissible but deprecated to say that Rick Scott is Voldemort.

itisknown.gif
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Inferring meaningful correlations after eyeballing a map is a baaaad idea.

Why? I mean are you saying you don't think there would be a correlation if you actually sat down to calculate it? Because I find that pretty hard to believe. When a correlation is easily visible to the eyeballs it usually turns out to be a pretty strong correlation, in my experience. And that Washington Post article had some pretty convincing scatter plots of closely related quanitites.

Or are you saying that I shouldn't attribute meaning to the correlation? Because I didn't attribute much -- I didn't, for instance, say that being a drug addict is a cause of supporting Trump or being a Trump supporter causes you to get addicted to drugs. I made the weaker (but more likely to be accurate IMO) statement that they probably have some causes in common. And it's easy to imagine they would, given that, as the Post article says "We're focusing on middle-aged whites because the data show that something has gone terribly wrong with their lives. In a study last year, economists Anne Case and Angus Deaton pointed out that mortality rates for this group have actually been increasing since the '90s."

Is it just a coincidence that middle aged white people are Trump's base of support, and also the only demographic group with falling life expectancy? You think those are unconnected?

I don't know what the connection is, but I'm pretty confident there is one. Hopefully someone's already working on a study.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


I fail to understand how a 2500 square foot street-fronting mostly zero lot property constitutes a mansion in anyone's description.

Considering that the average size new single-family American house was 983 square feet in 1950, 2500 square feet, 5 bedrooms and 4.5 baths would almost constitute a "mansion."
posted by Floydd at 12:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Somehow -- maybe one of these massive election threads? -- I'm following Juanita Jean's, The World's Most Dangerous Beauty Salon, Inc, a very funny progressive liberal blog in Texas.

Last week they were asking for volunteers for "chase calls" to registered-Democrat seniors who had requested mail-in ballots. I do a lot of local history interviews and research and am very comfortable talking to older folks, so this seemed to be a great opportunity to warm up before doing some phone banking for Hillary Clinton.

I'm here to tell you that calling seniors is a DELIGHT. The first person I spoke to said joyously, "Oh, I mailed back my ballot as soon as I got it!" which made me feel really great. There's a script to follow, asking them to remember the downballot races, but so far I've only spoken to people who have already voted. Yay, Texas oldsters!

So if you're feeling a little bit intimidated by potentially speaking to Trumpians or assholes, I highly recommend signing up for something like these.
posted by vickyverky at 12:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [34 favorites]


Trump isn't a builder or investor in America. He's just a high-stakes grifter.

Not to defend him in any way, but he's hardly the only property developer for whom that's true.
posted by aught at 12:19 PM on October 4, 2016


Because I find that pretty hard to believe. When a correlation is easily visible to the eyeballs it usually turns out to be a pretty strong correlation, in my experience.

Yeahbut, the thing about doing that with maps is that a lot of the time you end up comparing a map of population density with noise added to another map of population density with different noise added. Not saying that you are doing this now.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


But again, not a conversation that's specifically germane to an election debate in a secular republic.

I disagree - both candidates have a history of claiming that religion is important to them. I would love to see a question like, "You are both on record as being very religious. How has your faith influenced your political decisions in the past, and how will it influence your activities in office?"

I already know I'd love Kaine's answer; I'm sure I'd be entertained by Pence's.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


The net result was the client was happy because she thought she was ripping us off and we were happy because she was actually paying us a 15+% bonus for dealing with her attempts to rip us off.

So I'm a seamstress and there's a reason people who sew professionally automatically add an upcharge when working for a wedding. Brides are known to be difficult. I'd say most small business people do this when working with people who show signs of being difficult or likely to dispute fees. You can say that's not fair, but hey, I set my rates upfront and if you don't like them, you can go elsewhere.
posted by threeturtles at 12:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Mitheral: Polls only now has Ohio at 52.7% Clinton.

Sadly I think you must have been looking at the now-cast, or else it was a blip that I failed to pick up in my compulsive refreshing of the polls-only forecast page today. I'm still seeing Ohio hovering at a frustrating 49.5% Clinton, 50.5% Trump.

Granted, the difference is surely well within the margin of error either way.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:24 PM on October 4, 2016


And that Washington Post article had some pretty convincing scatter plots of closely related quanitites.

Both linear regression plots (albeit ones without precise fits and missing r2 values) and correlation plots are waaay more compelling than a bunch of arbitrary shades on a map. Call it personal bias here, but maps correlate well with just so many phenomena. There's so much data contained in all of those MSAs that it’s hard to tell just how much is up.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


While I think vice-presidential debates are necessary and important for other reasons, historically they don't move the polls at all. I think, if anything, that will be especially true this year.

As my spouse said of Pence, "No one is going to notice that the wastepaper basket next to the dumpster is also on fire."
posted by kyrademon at 12:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [52 favorites]


And hey, since we're still talking about Mitheral's excellent story from earlier today, I should mention that adding an "asshole tax" is pretty standard practice in construction. If you have a client that you know is particularly difficult to deal with and who is going to chew up more than the usual amount of management time, but you still are willing to work with them, you bump up your price to suit. My company does the same thing, for a very small number of repeat clients who we hate working with but who are willing to pay us enough to make it worthwhile. Granted, a 25% surcharge is pretty audacious.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I fail to understand how a 2500 square foot street-fronting mostly zero lot property constitutes a mansion in anyone's description.

Looks like Clemenza's house in the Godfather.
posted by JackFlash at 12:29 PM on October 4, 2016


As my spouse said of Pence, "No one is going to notice that the wastepaper basket next to the dumpster is also on fire."

Genius.
posted by Sophie1 at 12:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


Herodios: Governor -- you're no Skeletor.

That's because we have Rick Scott, right?


Yes, well, but I also remember someone referring to Michael Chertoff as "the head -- or anyway the skull -- of Homeland Security" during the George * Bush administration.
 
posted by Herodios at 12:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh, this article on Daily Kos!!! I am printing it and attaching it to my chest. I am posting it on my facebook wall and I might blow it up and set it out on my lawn. It really sets my brother in a certain light that is unflattering and true.

If you tell me you are supporting Trump, I already know seven things about you.
It is NOT OKAY that Trump mocked a disabled person. If Hillary did that, it would be a deal-breaker for me. I'd go third-party, or write in my own name. I have standards. You apparently don't. Some people try to justify this by saying Trump didn't really do it. Except he really did, and it was awful.

No one even tries to defend Donald Trump mocking POWs, because he said it loud and clear: "I like people who weren't captured". It was that insult to John McCain that I thought would have killed his chances within the GOP ranks, since they claim to be pro-veteran. I grossly overestimated their character. By the time we get around to the part about Trump lusting after his own damn daughter or justifying statutory rape, I have already given up on you as a decent person.
posted by Sophie1 at 12:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [38 favorites]


I've been half-listening to the debate coverage on MSNBC and CNN all day and they've been doing interviews with undecideds and third party voters. The words I am tired of hearing are these:

"I am waiting for the candidates to tell me about the things that matter to me, like paying for my education and getting a job after college."

Apparently no one has informed these people that democracy is participatory--you can't expect each candidate to show up at your dorm room to give their personal pitch. You have to do your research--read their policy positions, watch debates, look at reliable news sources, study the issues packets sent out by various election bodies, etc. I may have been very left, verging on Green party even, as a young adult, but I never expected national or local candidates to beam me direct messages about their policy positions.
posted by xyzzy at 12:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


Trump grew up in Jamaica Estates. While not exactly palatial, that's still a pretty decent pad, especially for Queens:
Donald Trump’s Old Queens Neighborhood Contrasts With the Diverse Area Around It
posted by monospace at 12:39 PM on October 4, 2016


Re: the DailyKos piece. I have a real issue with blanket statements like "you have no class" or "you have no issue with women". Trump is a horrid human being, but people are allowed to vote for him if they really believe that the RNC platform is better for them. I think it's a gross choice, but I'm not ready to say that every Trump voter doesn't believe in the Constitution.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:41 PM on October 4, 2016


Donald Trump will be live tweeting tonight.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Donald Trump will be live tweeting tonight.

*drezdn buys popcorn futures*
posted by drezdn at 12:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [27 favorites]


That's crazy, xyzzy. Have these people been trapped in a hole for the last six months, or what?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]




Throwing the Constitution at a candidate is a pretty weak attack, if you ask me. Tell me about your plan to restore habeas corpus and maybe you'll have some moral high ground to stand on. Both candidates are pretty clear that they will only be bound by the Constitution when it suits their aims.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


And hey, since we're still talking about Mitheral's excellent story from earlier today, I should mention that adding an "asshole tax" is pretty standard practice in construction.

Based on the reporting, I suspect that any large subcontractors in the area with a solid history of good work were aware of Trump's tendency to renegotiate at the last minute, and those guys either refused to bid or bid high so they would be fairly confident they wouldn't lose money on the job.

However these guys like the piano seller? That's a small businessman who probably never does that kind of volume in a normal year, and doesn't have the kind of connections that would warn him that Trump is going to shaft him. Those guys are left swinging in the wind, and I think we can assume that Trump actively sought out small businesses as subcontractors, because he knew he could stiff them for any reason (or none at all).

Big businesses would have been pre-armed, would have negotiated stiffer terms in the contract, and would have had the wherewithal to walk away if they couldn't come to terms.
posted by suelac at 12:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


I liked this response:
Cant wait to see what you have to delete by tomorrow morning!
And of COURSE he can't let anyone else be the focus of attention for a few hours. It's the RNC idiocy all over again.
posted by phearlez at 12:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


Oh yeah, I'm absolutely not defending Trump's practice of stiffing contractors. I was talking more about the asshole tax in general. One way to keep working profitably with a troublesome client is to raise your prices to compensate for the loss in other areas. It doesn't justify their bad behavior, it just lets you route around it once you know that the problem exists.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:50 PM on October 4, 2016


Apparently no one has informed these people that democracy is participatory--you can't expect each candidate to show up at your dorm room to give their personal pitch.

There's a reason that campaigns do door-knocking and cold calling.

Heck, if they're being honest I kind of admire them. I can't name a single HRC policy despite knowing she has lots of them.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:51 PM on October 4, 2016


Yeah, as a poor person I'm not even slightly motivated to sympathy by the thought that giant companies, when they take a loss, don't really take a loss. Instead they push that loss off onto us so that our taxes pay for their loss.

Socialized loss, privatized profits.

But I'm fucked sideways if I'm short a few bucks on the rent.

The sheer rage that fills me, knowing that what Trump did was totally legal and that there are people out there actually defending the practice, the law, and the tax code, is unspeakable. They want to explain how it all really make sense, how if we just consider profits overall rather than just on an annual basis, than letting a company subsidize its losses by forcing me to pay for it is completely justifiable.

I've always known the American tax system was rigged against me. I've always known the economy as a whole was rigged against me. I've always known that once you've gotten rich enough the rules don't apply and you can never, ever, no matter what you do, wind up hungry or having a hard time paying the bills.

But seeing it illustrated so gloatingly by Trump brings it home in a really visceral way.

And what turns that white hot rage into cold depression is knowing that nothing I do will ever have the slightest influence on things and that the tax code, the system, the economy, will never change and that I have exactly zero power to do anything.

The Democratic party damn sure doesn't care about fixing the problem, the best we can say is that they want to keep the current, totally unfair and unjust status quo while the Republicans want to make it worse.
posted by sotonohito at 12:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


What are the drinking game rules if Pence drops a plug for a Trump product?
posted by cmfletcher at 12:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


"I am waiting for the candidates to tell me about the things that matter to me, like paying for my education and getting a job after college."

Well, the media can't report on Donald's plan for that because he doesn't have one. And since they're not reporting on Trump's plan, it would unbalance their coverage if they reported on Hillary's.
posted by ckape at 12:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [30 favorites]


if you scroll down on the tweet about having to delete stuff you can see alex jones be apopletic.

Was that a joke, or did Jones (ironically) delete it?
posted by ctmf at 12:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Finish the bottle if Pence calls Kaine a papist.
posted by drezdn at 12:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


if you scroll down on the tweet about having to delete stuff you can see alex jones be apopletic.

That made me laugh so hard I have to direct-link to the tweets for my fellow MeFites.

Warming up...

Full apoplexy, literally reduced to grunting noises.
posted by stolyarova at 12:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [29 favorites]


Heck, if they're being honest I kind of admire them. I can't name a single HRC policy despite knowing she has lots of them."

Tumblr, of all places, has you covered! “but what are Hillary’s POLICIES?” - with lots of internal links. Some highlights:
  • We already knew she wants harder regulation on the megabanks, right?
  • Universal quality pre-K for every kid!
  • Paid medical leave and new-parent leave. Not just for new moms, either. Regardless of gender.
  • Funding childcare centers on college campuses for student parents!
  • omg you guys, her plans for addressing autism. Note the total absence of the word “curing.” It’s all about “providing support” and “early diagnosis” and “improving access” and “increasing opportunities.”
  • Seriously, she’s coming at mental health from all sides, it’s fantastic
  • Her rhetoric about the police also hits better training to deal with implicit bias
  • Comprehensive background checks for gun buying!
  • Close the Charleston loophole
  • that’s right: this time Clinton was the one dragging Bernie to the left
  • Solar panels!
  • I mean, clean energy in general, but “solar panels” is the shiniest part
  • Automatic voter registration
  • AUTOMATIC VOTER REGISTRATION
  • Raise the minimum wage to $12/hr
  • She’s planning to upgrade our 25 most costly freight bottlenecks
  • Did you know our country had a cost issue with freight bottlenecks?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [68 favorites]


The sheer rage that fills me, knowing that what Trump did was totally legal ...

Some of it may have been legal but we also know for a fact that some of it was also illegal. A lot of his dealings we can't evaluate one way or the other because he won't release his income tax returns, but his pattern of illegality in the public portions suggests there might be more that is hidden from the public.

We know about the illegality of his foundation because the law requires public disclosure of foundation tax returns. Not so for personal income tax returns.
posted by JackFlash at 1:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Oh the Alex Jones apoplexy vid is AMAZING. I've watched it seven times so far and I can't stop!
posted by mochapickle at 1:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Every time someone says "Trump-Pence" I hear Mary Poppins sing:

Though their words
Are simple and few
Listen, listen
They’re asking “Sez who?”

Hear the slurs,
Trump-Pence, (douchebags)
Trump-Pence,
Trump-Pence,
Trump-Pence, (douchebags)
posted by emjaybee at 1:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


Also, the googles says that Alex Jones is only 42. How is that possible? I was sure he was late 50s.
posted by mochapickle at 1:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


It's a hard way of living.
posted by spitbull at 1:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


The opposite of Justin Trudeau, who looks 30 due to a lifelong regimen of yoga, love, and adorableness.
posted by stolyarova at 1:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


Yeah, the house with the columns I could see calling a mansion. Not so much the tudor though.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 1:06 PM on October 4, 2016


If someone even last year would have told me that at a point in the near future Infowars would become, like, a thing that otherwise normal(?) Republicans paid any attention to, I'd have laughed so hard I'd need to sit down.

I mean, it was really not that long ago where mentioning Alex Jones or Infowars had to automatically come with an explainer because who the fuck knows who Alex Jones is except the most dedicated collectors of internet curiosities? Like, whenever Jon Ronson would explain who Alex Jones is, I'd feel sort of smugly superior because I already knew.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


My husband was born and raised liberal Catholic, was an alter boy, the whole deal and even though he's an atheist now, woe betide the street preacher whom he decides to get into a scripture battle with. Protestants think that Catholics don't know the bible. They are quite wrong.

I have a friend who spent two years in a Jesuit seminary. I know exactly what you mean.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, Jones and I are basically the same age, and I've treated my body like shit for a long time but still feel like we can't possibly look to be in the same decade; bile like his must rot from the inside-out.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


If Pence And Kaine Aren’t The Future Of Their Parties, Who Is?

On the dem side, Governor Raimundo in particular is charismatic and whip-smart and is running a pretty good economic turnaround here in RI - it's a slow slog, but she's making the best of the mess she was handed. She'd be a mainstream, center-right Democrat like Hillary, only without the two decades of slander.

Al Franken is another name that should not be discounted, he's a radical firebrand and deep thinker while a mainstream Democrat, who's Minnesota Nice but with a quick wit and a sharp edge he can summon when needed. If we need a populist, he'd be the one I'd prefer.
posted by Slap*Happy at 1:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Alex Jones makes me feel like my WoW murloc derail a few election threads ago wasn't actually a derail, just prescient.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


somebody plz make a Vine of that Alex Jones clip + murloc wharrgarrbling
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Holy shit Alex Jones is my age???

Jesus.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Here's Alex Jones in cartoon form
posted by Slap*Happy at 1:14 PM on October 4, 2016


Watching that video just now was my first exposure to Alex Jones. That's.... something else.

Isn't there a guy in "V for Vendetta" with a very similar speaking style?
posted by diogenes at 1:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Wargarbling" is my new favorite term for the mouth diarrhea flowing from Jones, Drudge, Limbaugh, etc. etc.
posted by xyzzy at 1:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Not to continue the derail or anything, but here he is in 1998 and he looks fully 35. I'm one year younger and in 1998 I was mistaken for a middle schooler.
posted by mochapickle at 1:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


So tonight's the VP debate, plus Trump's going to be doing his thing on Twitter, plus there's a ball game I'd like to keep an eye on...but I only got five hours of sleep last night and I'm at work until 8:30. *puts a pot of coffee on*

If this whole Infowars thing doesn't work out in the long run, Alex Jones could get a job as one of those guys who does voice-overs for monster truck commercials, or maybe as a wrestling announcer.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


i have never seen a picture of alex jones before but he likes what you'd get if an angry egg had sex with a chonga bagel
posted by Tevin at 1:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]




It's the angry heel persona they teach you in the first week of pro wrestling school.
posted by cmfletcher at 1:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Jesus Christ, I have never seen Alex Jones before, but those clips are like the most coked-up 1980s wrestling promos. A sweaty, red-faced man yelling nonsense at the top of his lungs. Really incredible.
posted by uncleozzy at 1:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]




"If this is what Alex Jones feels like, I understand why he never stops screaming." (starts around 13:30) (you should listen to Election Profit Makers because it's great)
posted by theodolite at 1:25 PM on October 4, 2016


With all the staff shakeups the Trump campaign goes through, I hope his final staff consists of Keitel, Jodl, Krebs, and Burgdorf.
posted by drezdn at 1:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]




Releasing personal information is never a good look.
posted by stolyarova at 1:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


at last a look behind the veil at the monsters funding malaria and HIV prevention
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [87 favorites]


Oooh, big coup, Russia. All the private information for already publically identified foundation donors!

I miss hacktivism. This state-sponsored disinfo anti-privacy bullshit is no fun.
posted by xyzzy at 1:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Developing: Guccifer 2.0 dumps a bunch of Clinton Foundation donor data

yyyyyeeeeeahh call it a hunch but I kinda think the Clinton Foundation wouldn't have a folder labeled "Pay To Play"
posted by mightygodking at 1:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


He’s more Ultimate Warrior than Hulk Hogan. (Warrior’s politics are a closer match, too.)
posted by nicepersonality at 1:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


It doesn't look legit. For instance one of the tracking sheets was explicitly republicans getting donations and there was a folder that literally said "Pay to Play" on the server.

We'll have to see what this one posts further down the road.
posted by Talez at 1:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


if you scroll down on the tweet about having to delete stuff you can see alex jones be apopletic.

now THAT'S charisma...
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Developing: Guccifer 2.0 dumps a bunch of Clinton Foundation donor data

yyyyyeeeeeahh call it a hunch but I kinda think the Clinton Foundation wouldn't have a folder labeled “Pay To Play”

That’s what we’ll spend the rest of the cycle pointlessly debating, maybe.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Guccifer 2.0 dumps a bunch of Clinton Foundation donor data

Donor names and amounts are already voluntarily released by the Clinton Foundation even though not required by law. This is simply doxing their private information such as address, email and phone numbers. Pure malicious harassment.
posted by JackFlash at 1:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


You know, at this juncture, unless Putin himself, George Zmmerman or Zombie Fred Phelps is on that donor list, I do not really care. Come January, we're going to be governed either by a compromised-but-plausible Democrat or Cheeto Jesus, I've already gotten on the ride and tightened the straps and I can no longer care. There's no October surprise that's going to surprise me into wanting to be ruled by Trump.

I recognize that for an internationally wanted hacker, life probably won't change much no matter who's elected, so it probably doesn't resonate much with Guccifer or Assange, but my life will be materially worse if Trump is elected instead of Clinton, just like my neighbors' in my substantially Muslim neighborhood.
posted by Frowner at 1:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Terry "I Stole My Stage Name From a Marvel Comic" Bollea is a close ally of Peter Theil, just like Trumpy.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:38 PM on October 4, 2016


yyyyyeeeeeahh call it a hunch but I kinda think the Clinton Foundation wouldn't have a folder labeled “Pay To Play”

list_of_people_whom_I_Hillary_Rodham_Clinton_have_personally_murdered.xlsx
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [94 favorites]



I thought we could already get access to Clinton Foundation donors?

Is this a pretend 'secret' list of an actually not secret list in order to make people think it's a new and secret list or something?
posted by Jalliah at 1:39 PM on October 4, 2016


It includes private phone numbers and email addresses.
posted by stolyarova at 1:39 PM on October 4, 2016




list_of_people_whom_I_Hillary_Rodham_Clinton_have_personally_murdered_A-F.xlsx
list_of_people_whom_I_Hillary_Rodham_Clinton_have_personally_murdered_G-P.xlsx
list_of_people_whom_I_Hillary_Rodham_Clinton_have_personally_murdered_Q-Z.xlsx
posted by mochapickle at 1:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [35 favorites]


Oh the Alex Jones apoplexy vid is AMAZING. I've watched it seven times so far and I can't stop!

It is a thing of beauty. It reminds me of Bill O'Reilly's hit "Fuck it! We'll do it live!" Now I want an Alex Jones remix.

If Pence And Kaine Aren’t The Future Of Their Parties, Who Is?

Win or lose, I wonder if one of the legacies of Donald Trump will be to legitimize candidates without previous political experience. Having seen what Trump could do, it seems more likely that anyone with the money and the constituency might decide to seek the attention if not actually the positions. And that either party might be more inclined to work with outsiders.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:41 PM on October 4, 2016


Even if this isn't legit, the old adage of "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on" is going to ring incredibly true.
posted by Talez at 1:41 PM on October 4, 2016


Just got back from phone banking. First call was hard, but by the fifth call or so it's a breeze. As others noted, you're calling Democrats, except for the odd person who shouldn't be on their lists. Almost everyone I managed to talk to was supporting Hillary, and half were "Hell yeah I am!" I did get one poor lady who could not comprehend what I was calling about or who Hillary was. (I gained a bit of cred in the office for my persistence there.) I managed to sign up four volunteers (well, three new ones and one guy who was already volunteering in the neighboring swing state.)

Pro tip: bring your charger. I rarely actually talk on my phone and was surprised at how fast the battery drained.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [25 favorites]


I recognize that for an internationally wanted hacker, life probably won't change much no matter who's elected,
I respectfully disagree. I think they're counting on Deporable Donald to give them full amnesty and apartments in a Trump building.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:41 PM on October 4, 2016


I eagerly await the inevitable Alex Jones/Downfall mashup.
posted by holborne at 1:42 PM on October 4, 2016


Mark Hamill is not only "Son of Vader" but also the voice of the Best Joker Ever from the Animated Batman. If you're too awful for him...
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


funny cause this election is literally Mon Mothma vs Jabba the Hutt
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


ALEX JONES IS HOW I FEEL INSIDE RICK
ALL THE TIME
posted by uosuaq at 1:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


Three volunteers on your first go, that's pretty good ChurchHatesTucker! Keep it up :D
posted by Tevin at 1:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I respectfully disagree. I think they're counting on Deporable Donald to give them full amnesty and apartments in a Trump building.

I dunno. I don't know Assange's heart, and he sounds like a rapey creep, but I've been around radical left/movement circles and it would not surprise me in the least if all these guys were just so focused on the far left critique of the Democratic party* that they're simply not thinking.

They don't have to think. Assange will always have his international hacker celebrity career, and as soon as he can winkle his way out of the embassy it will be back to that life - not necessarily a lot of money, but plenty of connections, places to stay, etc. I assume that everybody else is pretty much living a low-rent but exciting activist life, and that won't change as long as they stay out of jail. All of them will stay out of the US.

They don't need to be actually pro-Trump to be as removed from the personal consequences of a Trump presidency as a parlor pink gazillionaire.

I certainly believe that they want Trump to win, but that's because they want Hillary to lose and don't really care about the knock-on effects.

(I was thinking this morning - I always want to ask the burn-it-down/accelerationist crowd who they think is going to take care of their parents and grandparents during the extended collapse of the US, when there's no social security and the economy is in chaos. I bet that's not something they're eager to do themselves, or have even thought about.)

*with which I personally tend to agree, actually.
posted by Frowner at 1:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Could this new Guccifer thing be what Assange was planning to release as the October Surprise? It would explain why he dropped it; it seems pretty weak and nasty.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


suelac: "However these guys like the piano seller? That's a small businessman who probably never does that kind of volume in a normal year, and doesn't have the kind of connections that would warn him that Trump is going to shaft him."

No doubt. We had the advantage of already having the most expensive call out rates in town so were the last shop to be called by them. And there was an informal association of HVAC guys in town who would meet for breakfast every once and a while where problem customers were discussed/complained about. So we both knew going in this client was problematic and that they couldn't really shop around on price because no one else would work for them. There was at least once where a hungry new guy setup shop and immediately got burned by this client for probably a hundred plus hours + material over the course of six seven months.
posted by Mitheral at 1:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Are Julian Assange et al really "leftist"? As a leftist, I've always assumed they were right-libertarian technocracy types. I'd agree that they don't necessarily want Trump to win, but they sure as hell don't want anyone liberal or lefty to win, either.

As to them expecting a handout from Trump, can they possibly be that stupid? Trump doesn't pay the contractors who build his hotels.
posted by Sara C. at 1:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


I recognize that for an internationally wanted hacker, life probably won't change much no matter who's elected,
I respectfully disagree. I think they're counting on Deporable Donald to give them full amnesty and apartments in a Trump building.


At least in Guccifer 2.0’s case, why would Putin need to pardon himself?
posted by Going To Maine at 1:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Are Julian Assange et al really “leftist”? As a leftist, I've always assumed they were right-libertarian technocracy types. I'd agree that they don't necessarily want Trump to win, but they sure as hell don't want anyone liberal or lefty to win, either.

Paint me a nationalist, but I sort of assume that Assange just de facto hates the U.S. Government. Maybe he didn’t start that way, but that’s where he is now, and that’s how he operates in practice.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:58 PM on October 4, 2016


Update: A review of the newly released documents reveals no information about the Clinton Foundation. Instead, the documents appear to come mostly from the Democratic Party of Virginia. Other documents appear to come from the national Democratic party.

from the daily caller, of all places.
posted by condour75 at 1:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think Assange is looking for Russian asylum.
posted by cmfletcher at 1:59 PM on October 4, 2016


this Guccifer 2.0 "hack" is like when your mom feels bad that you didn't get the October Surprise you wanted and she tries to make you one from scratch but it's just not the same and nothing will ever take the disappointment away
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [70 favorites]


The Democratic Party of Virginia? For sure a hotbed of deep political grey ops if ever there was one!
posted by soren_lorensen at 2:00 PM on October 4, 2016


Endgame shenanigans are ramping up.

From the Columbus Dispatch today:

Jon Husted says bogus election fraud article offends him as 'a Christian'

Nice (and mildly surprising) to see Husted unambiguously on the right side of this.
posted by perspicio at 2:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Every piece of information in that "file" is public information for the last couple of months.
posted by Talez at 2:03 PM on October 4, 2016


Are Julian Assange et al really "leftist"?

Everybody I know who is (or mostly was - the rape charges put a lot of people off, even though they don't like to talk about it) a big Assange fan is definitely left, and Wikileaks was, at least around here, spun as a left project. I dunno, over the years I've been around a few hacky/Assange-y types, and they are all sort of techno-anarchist-ish. Almost all very nice people with good lived values, actually, which is why I'm always surprised when Assange gets so much traction with them.

Up until the last couple of years, actually, Wikileaks and whistleblowing generally seemed to me mostly about exposing government malfeasance and impropriety, often pretty bravely. There's nothing wrong with Chelsea Manning or Edward Snowden.
posted by Frowner at 2:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


The Hill calls it a hoax.

"A sampling of the posted documents include a spreadsheet of big bank donations, a list of primarily California donors, an outdated spreadsheet of some Republican House members — and a screenshot of files he claimed to have obtained, one of which was titled “Pay to Play.”

But there are a number of red flags that suggest the documents are in fact from a previous hack on the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC), not a new hack on the Clinton Foundation."
posted by dnash at 2:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


There’s nothing wrong with Chelsea Manning or Edward Snowden.

At least on the subject of Wikileaks, it seems like Cablegate was one of the reasons they started getting more of a side-eye.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:09 PM on October 4, 2016


Can we not re-litigate the relative merits of particular leakers in this thread? This subject has been particularly tricky on Metafilter.
posted by xyzzy at 2:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


That Guccifer folder tantalizingly marked "pay to play"? It's DCCC oppo research on a couple of Republican congressmen.

Yep. It's all legit DCCC shit mixed in with public records trying to smear Clinton with insinuations.
posted by Talez at 2:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Can we not re-litigate the relative merits of particular leakers in this thread? This subject has been particularly tricky on Metafilter.

Oh, absolutely. I raised Cablegate because of its connection to Wikileaks, nothing else. Assange seems germane.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:13 PM on October 4, 2016


The alt-right machine has already started to plaster the more nefarious fantasy of this leak over as much of their shitty little corner of the world as they can.
posted by Talez at 2:14 PM on October 4, 2016


lol at "pay to play" folder

looking for the "smoking gun" folder next
posted by defenestration at 2:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Per usual, engaging in transparent and correct behavior gets spun into unfounded accusations of malfeasance.

Why might there be a folder called "Pay to Play"? It would be a colossally stupid name for a folder if you were engaging in actual corruption, but it might be a good name if you're tracking contributions to/from PACs and other related entities as is required by the SEC under a section of the law which is referred to by the SEC itself as the "Pay to Play" rule. Or, as noted, an oppo research file of your opponent doing illegal behavior.

Nothingburgers: $0, same as in town.
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Update: A review of the newly released documents reveals no information about the Clinton Foundation. Instead, the documents appear to come mostly from the Democratic Party of Virginia. Other documents appear to come from the national Democratic party.

from the daily caller, of all places.
“P.S. I’m pleased to congratulate Wikileaks on their 10th anniversary!!!,” Guccifer 2.0 writes. “Julian, you are really cool! Stay safe and sound!”
OK, can we agree that Guccifer 2.0 is really Julian Assange? Faked "smoking gun" proof, and hyping Wikileaks anniversary, with a bonus "Julian is a cool dood!" tweet.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm usually pretty safe within my city's blue bubble, but today we had a concern troll show up on our neighborhood Nextdoor site. She wanted "help" understanding why anyone would support Hillary Clinton with her documented record of murders, KKK affiliation, etc. (I didn't read the whole list, but you can guess). Then she proceeded to be shocked and saddened that her neighbors didn't want to engage with her "nonpartisan" discussion. Not her political opinions, nosirree, she was just asking some questions and why was everybody being so mean to her? Fortunately one of the mods shut down the discussion.

November 8th cannot come too soon.
posted by Preserver at 2:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


“P.S. I’m pleased to congratulate Wikileaks on their 10th anniversary!!!,” Guccifer 2.0 writes. “Julian, you are really cool! Stay safe and sound!”

october sup guy?
posted by defenestration at 2:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


From the guy who brought you Trump Leaks, it's #GiveMoreThanTrump, which has already raised at least *refreshes* $11,000 for the American Refugee Committee, which is more than Trump's documented donations for several years. And it took less than 30 minutes.

*refreshes* Make that $13,731
posted by maudlin at 2:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [25 favorites]


my prediction for the last debate came true, so here's one for tonight:

Kaine hangs each and every one of Trump's indefensible statements on Pence like he's some hollow-eyed Christmas tree until he implodes under the weight of all that evil nonsense like the house from Poltergeist

there is still 20 minutes of debate left when this happens, so Kaine asks the moderator if he can fill the rest of the time by playing requests from the audience on harmonica and the moderator says well this is unprecedented but sure
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [55 favorites]


#NextPost VP Debate Bingo cards
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


prize bull octorok: my prediction for the last debate came true
I can predict anything I want, so I'm going to predict that she fucking destroys him. Why not.
so here's one for tonight

One of these things is not like the other ;)

But that doesn't mean I don't want your new prediction to be true. C'mon 20 minute harmonica jam!
posted by filthy light thief at 2:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Holy fuck are his wastrel sons idiots.

@MajorCBS: Via @EricTrump @AmericaNewsroom on @mike_pence "his track record in his home state, in Illinois is exactly why we picked him..." #Indiana


Ugh, don't you try to pin that cockroach on us, Eric. We have governor problems of our own in Illinois.
posted by merriment at 2:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Other Guccifer hack folder names

* Hit list (contents: Thriller.mp3, YMCA.aac, Wonderwall.wav)
* Professional corruption (contents: Several .docx files like "John Anderson - resume.docx" with a .txt file with links to file repair utilities to try out)
* Laundering (contents: Excel spreadsheet of preferred drycleaning vendors by city)
* Under the Table (contents: Tim Kaine's woodworking diagrams of some legs to make on his new lathe)
* Bribes (contents: PDFs of articles from Bride magazine, dates unknown)
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [42 favorites]


I think Assange is fair game because he has inserted himself into the election.

The prevailing attitude I've seen in people like Assange is that most people are know-nothing sheep, technologically speaking. Especially the government. They enjoy rubbing official noses in their own ignorance. Secondarily, most of these types truly do believe in transparency in politics and government. Where Assange really goes off the rails is in terms of personal privacy--he has completely abdicated his throne when it comes to these rights due to his reticence when it comes to redacting irrelevant private data from leaks.
posted by xyzzy at 2:24 PM on October 4, 2016


Well I'm about to leave to go into the Big City for a concert tonight, so I won't be with y'all for the debate. I'll be trying to catch up after 3AM or so...I wonder if I can find a torrent and DL it to watch tomorrow sometime.

Have fun. I know Kaine is going to be awesome.
posted by threeturtles at 2:26 PM on October 4, 2016


@MajorCBS: Via @EricTrump @AmericaNewsroom on @mike_pence "his track record in his home state, in Illinois is exactly why we picked him..." #Indiana

Give the guy some credit. He could have gone with Iowa or even Idaho.
posted by JackFlash at 2:27 PM on October 4, 2016


Mod note: A few comments deleted. Please don't use the edit function to change content, it creates confusion where different readers are seeing different versions of the comment.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


threeturtles: I wonder if I can find a torrent and DL [the VP debate] to watch tomorrow sometime

ProTip: you can right click and save the C-SPAN debate (at least I could save the C-SPAN first presidential debate). The YouTube streams from various official outlets were all blocking my usual YT backup efforts, which would have allowed me to watch it offline on my commute to work.

(But yes, people also make torrents of the official feeds)
posted by filthy light thief at 2:29 PM on October 4, 2016


Mark Hamill is not only "Son of Vader" but also the voice of the Best Joker Ever from the Animated Batman. If you're too awful for him...

FWIW Hamill hasn't exactly been coy about being a Democrat, or at least left-of-center. From what I hear in fandom circles, he's Good People.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Okay I really want the debate to start because I have a doughnut.
posted by Jalliah at 2:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Pessimistic prediction for tonight: Because so few people know how truly execrable Mike Pence is, people see him and Kaine as two boring sides of the same wonk coin. Pence will be declared the winner because the news media are so desperate for a "conservatives are also OK/this is a normal election" narrative.
posted by Sara C. at 2:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Thanks, LobsterMitten - now I have to mention again that Assange is creepy but Snowden is totes adorbs.
posted by stolyarova at 2:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


If this is all the Russian-state sponsored hackers and/or Assange et al have, my worries about a genuine October Surprise are approaching zero. Even if they do have something big, way to torpedo credibility with all this crying wolf. (Disclaimer: obviously this doesn't matter to those people who reject any measure of objective reality, but they're lost causes anyway.)
posted by yasaman at 2:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]




Pence will be declared the winner because the news media are so desperate for a "conservatives are also OK/this is a normal election" narrative.

I think the best strategy for Kaine is to keep holding Pence's feet to the Trump garbage fire. No one in the Republican Party has a good answer for squaring GOP ideology with this guy who is simultaneously not particularly conservative on economic issues and also is super super rightwing on social issues. They mostly solve it by muttering inanities and running away from their interlocuters as soon as they can, unless they're Kellyanne Conway who has supernatural powers of shameless obfuscation.

Kaine has a sustained amount of time to embarrass Pence and, by extension, the rest of the Republican establishment which is trying desperately to ignore the white-hooded elephant in the room.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


If this is all the Russian-state sponsored hackers and/or Assange et al have, my worries about a genuine October Surprise are approaching zero.

As it becomes apparent that Clinton is going to win, at some point it becomes advantageous to Russia to no longer antagonise the next President of the USA. They may cut off the flow of leaked documents to their regular outlets and hang them out to dry for a bit.
posted by PenDevil at 2:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Every time I see "Guccifer" I think "Gucci Mane." Tho Gucci Mane would be dropping leaks like they were hot and every one of them would be more exciting.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Ahhhhhh, now Ohio is blue.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The


Eponysterical?
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Snowden is totes adorbs.

totes!
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


[Are we starting a new thread for the veep debate? Also, will anyone be in chat?]
posted by xyzzy at 2:44 PM on October 4, 2016


When the new life is breathed into the flickering embers of this thread in the form of the upcoming VP Debate post, may I ask that the fantastic Election Thread Reference wiki page, started by Zachlipton, be included?

I found it incredibly helpful, even as someone who's been assiduously reading every comment. New commenters in particular might be put off if they don't understand constant references to the JCPL or Trump's Razor.
posted by adrianhon at 2:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


[ChurchHatesTucker has dibs on the new thread.]
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:46 PM on October 4, 2016


I was planning on watching the debate, but also they updated Stardew Valley yesterday and I have a full field of cranberries soooo...
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Mod note: Logistics stuff over in the Metatalk thread please. Yes, there will be a new debate thread about 30 min before the debate, and yes the election chat will be up and running again.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


man, does Alex Jones make coke look unfun
posted by angrycat at 2:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


As it becomes apparent that Clinton is going to win, at some point it becomes advantageous to Russia to no longer antagonise the next President of the USA. They may cut off the flow of leaked documents to their regular outlets and hang them out to dry for a bit.

It's crazy to me that Putin has so publicly sided with Trump, and taken action on his behalf that was traceable back to Russia. Because Trump has never led in the polls. It's always been more likely that Clinton would win. And until recently, the US and Russia had been trying to work together, despite our differences.

I have been assuming that's why Clinton wasn't hammering Trump on those connections -- she maybe wanted to preserve some kind of fig leaf for Putin so that she could work with him if necessary.

The US/Russia relationship got a lot more hostile this week, though. I can't imagine it is going to warm up if Clinton wins, after everything that's happened now.
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


For those following right-wing demagogery in general and "Call me Mr Brexit" implications in particular, Diane Jones, the new leader of UKIP, has resigned after a golden reign of just 18 days for unclear reasons, but quoting 'insufficient authority' with her senior colleagues. It is apparently quite possible that Nigel Farage is now the defacto leader again, until they sort themselves out.

If they sort themselves out.


Be careful what you wish for, o populist mobsters.
posted by Devonian at 2:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I was planning on watching the debate, but also they updated Stardew Valley yesterday and I have a full field of cranberries soooo...

I've been getting back into Dark Souls, so I'm gonna spend tonight watching a skeletal creature that has lost sight of his own humanity get beat the hell up and tossed around like a rag doll

Then tomorrow it's back to Dark Souls
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [37 favorites]


I Listened to a Trump Supporter
or, why after everything you've built has fallen apart in the last ten years, somebody who's going to tear everything down and keep what's left for himself seems better than the 'status-quo'.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


For those following right-wing demagogery in general and "Call me Mr Brexit" implications in particular, Diane Jones, the new leader of UKIP, has resigned after a golden reign of just 18 days for unclear reasons, but quoting 'insufficient authority' with her senior colleagues. It is apparently quite possible that Nigel Farage is now the defacto leader again, until they sort themselves out.

I'm on my way to see Billy Bragg tonight in Toronto. It's a sound alternative to the veep debate tonight. I'm sure he'll have a few bon mots about Brexit and Trump. Will report back.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Snowden is totes adorbs.

If you haven't already, track down Snowden's interview with John Oliver. So much adorbs in one room across the street from the FSB headquarters.
posted by porpoise at 3:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I SAW THAT. And the adorbs were almost too much. If Colbert had been there, too, smirking and raising his eyebrow in the corner, I might have exploded.
posted by stolyarova at 3:03 PM on October 4, 2016


OnceUponATime: “It's crazy to me that Putin has so publicly sided with Trump, and taken action on his behalf that was traceable back to Russia.”

I think it's highly doubtful that Putin took that action himself. He has not "so publicly sided with Trump," as far as I can tell – more like he's expressed bemusement publicly when told how much Trump claims to admire him. And I think he's too smart to think that a President Trump would be any good for Russia, or for international stability in general. Guccifer was probably inside Russia, but I doubt what happened there was a planned action; it seems a lot more like a random attempt to cover up a flubbed intelligence-gathering operation.
posted by koeselitz at 3:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


And I think he’s too smart to think that a President Trump would be any good for Russia,

Why would Trump be bad for Russia? I can’t say that’s a view I’ve seen expressed in a lot of places.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think he'd rather sit down at the poker table with the drunken lout as opposed to the player calculating pot odds and counting their outs.
posted by cmfletcher at 3:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's on the same planet as everything else, and the dude is super unpredictable. He could turn on a dime and decide that nuking Moscow was a great idea.
posted by stolyarova at 3:09 PM on October 4, 2016


I'm on my way to see Billy Bragg tonight in Toronto.

Waaah! I had no idea he was back in town. Got deadlines and can't sneak out, but tell him I said hi. And do report back with les bon mots.
posted by maudlin at 3:10 PM on October 4, 2016


America has all those nukes pointed at Russia. At some point the cold, calculating Mr Putin has do decide if he really wants Donald Trump to be the one holding the trigger for the next 4-8 years.

If you were in an armed standoff pointing a gun at your enemy and they were pointing a gun back what kind of person do you want holding the gun -- someone more like Hillary or more like Trump.

When I think about it that way I think Russia is going to recognize that while Trump has been entertaining for them; it is time to back away.
posted by humanfont at 3:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]





@ChrisMegerian: Clinton slips and says it's 35 years, not 35 days until the election.


If I was her I'm sure it feels like 35 years.

Though I hope this horrible gaffe doesn't cause her to lose the election.
posted by Jalliah at 3:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


"Ras" Putin is as much an egomaniac as Dumb Donald and much smarter. I'm sure he has a plan to get all those nukes pointed at somebody else in Presitrump's first few months. And when it comes to nuking anybody, Trump the Career Bully would never strike at anyone who could strike back. I still think the most likely 'nuclear incident' would be a JOINT US/Russian bombing of everything in Syria not controlled by Assad. And the current issues between Obama and Russia over Syria have to make Putin MORE of a Trumpfan.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:17 PM on October 4, 2016


Putin's not just a fan of Trump. He's supported far right parties throughout Europe. Western isolationism and nationalism and nativism in general serve his purposes, because they undermine alliances like NATO and the EU.
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


I Listened to a Trump Supporter
or, why after everything you've built has fallen apart in the last ten years, somebody who's going to tear everything down and keep what's left for himself seems better than the 'status-quo'.
These people need a populist answer. They need someone willing to listen to their very real concerns, and offer solutions that don’t look like Band-Aids on bullet wounds. If they had that on the left, we wouldn’t even be discussing Ohio as a “swing state”.

Right now, this is the discourse we’re seeing about Trump supporters. This only emboldens those attitudes. To people like her, this feels like the left is laughing at her for her unwillingness to get in line and support the things that have left her broke and broken.
This is where things require some form of cultural context and where things work to Trump's advantage. Circa-2009 Democrats tried their absolute hardest against people who didn't want things to improve under the black president. It wasn't a case of Democrats servicing their Wall Street buddies, it was really a case of career Republicans standing up and saying "$830b was more than enough" when we really needed double or even triple that. The sad thing is that Wall Street recovers faster than Main Street and it's hurting the Democrats.

In a regular election a liberal shows up, point out how the Republicans have tried to fuck everyone, hope main street America don't hate you for [insert social progress the conservatives are making a hissy fit over] and then fight like hell for votes. And therein lies the crux:

Trump has none of that baggage.

Trump doesn't have to defend a record of Republicans being obstructionist fucktards because he's selling himself not the Republican party. That's why you don't see Paul Ryan or Mitch McConnell stumping for Trump. Democrats, who don't want to make promises they don't intend to keep (for the most part), on the other hand have adopted a mildly pragmatic drawn slightly populist c/o Bernie. But that's just not enough for these people who are hurting. Trump on the other hand promises to go into DC and give them hell unburdened by the baggage of Congressional Republicans. The people lap it up because pragmatic incrementalism isn't good enough for them anymore. They need drastic change in the system. They're white and middle class! They did everything asked of them. Hypocrisy abound but they suddenly feel like they're not getting their share of the American dream.

They're don't know it yet but they're definitely not going to get things fixed with Trump but they know they're not going to get what they want (which is essentially make the country either 1967 or 1998 again) with Clinton.
posted by Talez at 3:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Maybe Putin just wanted to scare us by letting us see what he could do if we really wanted to screw us over. After we see how easily he could have stuck us with President Trump we're so traumatized we wake up Nicole Kidman and tell her everything
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


i dreamt of an HRC/Putin summit where she removes her shoe and pounds it on the table. but i'm weird like that.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


ah, shoe-pounding, a nostalgic touchstone for us Olds. My first exposure to the concept was listening to the "First Family" comedy album in a sketch where Kennedy met Khrushchev.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


i dreamt of an HRC/Putin summit where she removes her shoe and pounds it on the table. but i'm weird like that.

It worked against Nokia Krunchvez…
posted by Going To Maine at 3:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


It doesn't look legit. For instance one of the tracking sheets was explicitly republicans getting donations and there was a folder that literally said "Pay to Play" on the server.

Why do we even HAVE that folder, Kronk?
posted by emjaybee at 3:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]




@maggieNYT: "You are going to be proud of your country again," says Trump.

@abradacabla: I'm so old I remember when Michelle Obama was slammed for saying she hadn't always been proud of her country. It's OK for whites though.
posted by chris24 at 3:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [65 favorites]


The people lap it up because pragmatic incrementalism isn't good enough for them anymore. They need drastic change in the system. They're white and middle class! They did everything asked of them. Hypocrisy abound but they suddenly feel like they're not getting their share of the American dream.

No, they lap it up because Trump is promising them a return to the old days, where society catered to them, and all the other demographics can go piss off. And that's the problem - we aren't going back. The white working class as a portion of the makeup of the American populace is declining. And that's not going to change.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald Trump’s humiliation of Mike Pence has made tonight’s VP debate very strange:
I have never been quite so confused as to how to interpret a vice presidential debate. Let’s say Mike Pence shows up and crushes Tim Kaine. Unambiguously. Totally.
...
Let’s say Pence turns in a strong performance tonight. What is that supposed to prove? That Republicans had better, more popular options than Donald Trump, and should have nominated one of them? That a more generic Republican campaign would outperform Trump’s traveling circus? That there’s someone, somewhere, who could be a good influence on Trump, if only Trump would listen to him, which he won’t?
posted by kirkaracha at 3:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


No, they lap it up because Trump is promising them a return to the old days, where society catered to them, and all the other demographics can go piss off. And that's the problem - we aren't going back. The white working class as a portion of the makeup of the American populace is declining. And that's not going to change.

Uhhhh... That's basically what I said.
posted by Talez at 3:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I've been getting back into Dark Souls, so I'm gonna spend tonight watching a skeletal creature that has lost sight of his own humanity get beat the hell up and tossed around like a rag doll ... Then tomorrow it's back to Dark Souls

BRB looking for mods to turn Maxson or Motor-Runner into Trump
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump Spent '93 White House Correspondents Dinner Ogling Attendees:
“After 45 minutes [Kirsebom] came over to my table, almost in tears, and pleaded with me to move her,” he writes. “It seems that Trump had spent his entire time with her assaying the ‘tits’ and legs of the other female guests and asking how they measured up to those of other women, including his wife. ‘He is,’ she told me, in words that seemed familiar, ‘the most vulgar man I have ever met.’”
The Vanity Fair article has other tidbits, such as the time Ivanka called to ask them to go easy on her dad when they were reporting a feature on Trump University, and lots of shade about the size of his fingers.
posted by zachlipton at 3:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [25 favorites]


Kaine hangs each and every one of Trump's indefensible statements on Pence like he's some hollow-eyed Christmas tree until he implodes under the weight of all that evil nonsense like the house from Poltergeist
posted by prize bull octorok at 5:19 PM

I really want Kaine to ask if Pence checked out sex tape.



Someone matched up the Assange October Flop with Downfall
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


My hope for the debate is that Kaine keeps bringing up Trump's issues until Pence finally says a nice soundbite like "Why do we have to keep talking about Trump? I've barely met the man!"
posted by mmoncur at 4:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


The Vanity Fair article has other tidbits
At one point we sent checks for $1.11 out to 58 of the “well-known” and “well-heeled” to see who would take the time to endorse and deposit the checks from a firm we called the National Refund Clearinghouse. The ones who deposited the $1.11 checks were sent 64-cent checks, and the ones who deposited those were sent checks for 13 cents. This being in the days before electronic deposits and such, the exercise took the better part of a year. At the end, only two 13-cent checks were signed—and we couldn’t believe our good fortune. One was signed by arms trader Adnan Khashoggi. The other was deposited by Donald Trump.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [31 favorites]


Pence's opening statement: America I've made a huge mistake.
posted by humanfont at 4:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Multiple choice: The guy who goes with Trump to national security briefings is currently retweeting:
A) Sane, yet Republican tinged, policy
B) Conspiratorial fever dreams
posted by PenDevil at 4:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think Pence i s low-key hoping that they win, and then Trump gets impeached.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Going To Maine: “Why would Trump be bad for Russia? I can’t say that’s a view I’ve seen expressed in a lot of places.”

In the same way that a belligerent idiot in control of any major nation would be bad for Russia. Not in the boring, slow-burn, here-we-go-again-sigh way that Hillary Clinton, a known quantity, will be – in the ridiculous, fucking-hell-why-did-he-just-drop-nuclear-weapons-on-the-Crimea-that-doesn't-even-make-sense way. Although I'm sure in general he just doesn't care, but I don't think he's in any way allied with Trump or salivating over his presidency. An "ally" like Trump would be a mess, even if he did try to be your friend all the time. Trump has made some motions toward taking a hands-off policy toward Russia; that seems nice, but Putin is too intelligent to believe implications made during an election, particularly since our current president was openly honest about the fact that he was going to act completely differently once his election was over.

OnceUponATime: “Putin's not just a fan of Trump. He's supported far right parties throughout Europe. Western isolationism and nationalism and nativism in general serve his purposes, because they undermine alliances like NATO and the EU.”

I don't think the two are connected in Putin's mind. They shouldn't be; they aren't practically connected for Russia. The far-right parties of Europe have a direct impact on Russia's security in the borderlands and the potential annexation thereof. Far-right nationalism in the United States – yeah, I don't know; usually it's pretty warlike? Maybe in this case that wouldn't be bad? But if it's super-blundering, probably it wouldn't be good?

Hillary Clinton is the ruling elite. Putin doesn't like her, he doesn't like the current American paradigm with Russia, but it's a known quantity, it's a bad he knows and can live with. I don't think he has many thoughts about Donald Trump, but if he does, I wouldn't expect them all to be glowing.
posted by koeselitz at 4:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


B) Conspiratorial fever dreams

He can see Russia from his house!
posted by Artw at 4:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Russian husband says that the word Putin used to describe Trump is better translated as "flamboyant" or "flashy" than "brilliant," for what it's worth.
posted by stolyarova at 4:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


WaPo As Clinton gains, Trump supporters seem to hate her more than ever
Trump’s pre-rally speakers often prime the crowd for the attacks. In Wisconsin, former New York mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani repeatedly called Clinton “stupid.” In Pennsylvania, a Republican candidate for state treasurer said more people believe in Big Foot and UFOs than trust Clinton.

And in New Hampshire, a state lawmaker warned what a Clinton presidency would mean. “Ladies and gentlemen, if she becomes president, she’s moving in,” said Andy Sanborn, a state senator. “She’s going to be eating at your dinner table every night. She’s going to be taking part of your wages every week. She’s going to be driving your car on Tuesdays. Every aspect of your life, she’s going to be involved with and make life more and more and more restrictive.”
The whole article is horrifying. The Clinton hate is irrational and very frightening. There are people interviewed who try to explain why they hate her so much and it mostly comes down to Emails, Benghazi, Pay for Play, and Bill's affairs. I think those are excuses rather than reasons.
“When [Bill Clinton] was running for president the first time, I remember my dad saying: ‘He’s okay. He’s kind of Playboy-ish, but so was Kennedy, so he may be okay,’” Ellen Kaufman, a 56-year-old emergency-room nurse, said at a rally in Melbourne, Fla., on Sept. 27. “And he said: ‘That wife. Something about her.’ And it’s not because she’s a professional, it’s not because she’s a lawyer and all of these things. He said she just isn’t right.”

Kaufman said she agrees with her late father; she says Hillary Clinton has “always just rubbed me the wrong way.” On the other hand, she said, Trump is the “strict dad” that America needs.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


I don't know if there's really any point in asking what it is about Trump Supporters. Trump says a lot of things that the far right likes to hear. It's a no-brainer that people who basically define their politics around being as bigoted as possible will rally behind a candidate who openly advocates bigotry.

What's more surprising to me is two things:

1. That think piece authors are still peddling this "alienated left behind people who want someone who will really listen to them and work for their needs" bullshit. If that were remotely true, these people would all be Clinton supporters. Not to mention that Republican candidates have been pandering to this demographic for at least the last 8 and arguably the last 16 years. It's not a surprise that these people would vote for any Republican candidate.

2. What I really want to know is how Trump came to power without appealing to other traditional Republican demographics (religious right, old money fiscal conservatives, etc), and why those groups are marching in lockstep right now despite how deeply Trump repudiates almost every traditional Republican policy. I get why poor white people in the Rust Belt would be Trump's base. I don't get why the religious right is willing to go along.

It really feels to me like the analysts are phoning it in this year and just copy and pasting the same old shit. Poor whites in the Rust Belt are REALLY not the story this year.
posted by Sara C. at 4:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [26 favorites]


Not to minimize the vitriol, but Hillary Rodham Clinton is welcome to eat at my dinner table every night, that sounds delightful.

"Long day, Hills?"
posted by you're a kitty! at 4:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [44 favorites]


I told my parents that I wish she was my great aunt that swept in to town once a year, took me out for cocktails and regaled me with stories from the beltway.
posted by infinitywaltz at 4:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Multiple choice: The guy who goes with Trump to national security briefings is currently retweeting:
A) Sane, yet Republican tinged, policy
B) Conspiratorial fever dreams

posted by PenDevil at 7:08 PM on October 4

Oh oh oh, I know this one! It's General Flynn retweeting that Clinton is a murderer and she is out to get everyone who doesn't vote for her! Boo!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


New pro-HRC PAC ad: PLAYGROUND BULLY (SLYT)
posted by stolyarova at 4:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


“I believe she’s a communist,” Jim Denlinger, 47, said at Trump’s rally in rural Pennsylvania on Saturday night. “She also has done so many illegal things. There are 48 people who are dead around the Clintons. . . . If you look at each case, it’s suspicious. I think the Clintons are a very spooky couple.”

Spooky scary
Men becoming first husbands
Women becoming presidents
posted by Going To Maine at 4:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [42 favorites]


Yeah I don't even understand this line, "She’s going to be driving your car on Tuesdays." So Hillary is going to be so invasive that she....it's going to feel like she lives at my house and drives my car? It's such a weird thing to say.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


THANK MR SKELTAL
posted by stolyarova at 4:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Looks like the GOP accidentally posted their post-debate spin a little too early. [link to tweet w/ screenshot in case it's taken down]

MEREDITH!!?!
posted by melissasaurus at 4:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [58 favorites]


Sara C. that is exactly my query. I get the racist masses following the Trump clown car and I don't need an analyst to tell me why they are. What is astonishing that it seems that the more "reasonable" Rs are marching in lockstep. Is it all about the down ticket? The supreme court? Naked tribalism? Anyone got a link where someone digs into the fiscal Rs and finds out what/if they're thinking?
posted by merocet at 4:20 PM on October 4, 2016


Or, perhaps more aptly, I want to get off Mr. Trump's Wild Ride.
posted by stolyarova at 4:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Looks like the GOP accidentally posted their post-debate spin a little too early. [link to tweet w/ screenshot in case it's taken down]

Holy shoot. That is ridiculous.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


But wait, there's more:

It's Clear Who Lost the VP Debate, Hillary Clinton
, with hard-hitting analysis like:
Tim Kaine was unable to answer for his running-mate's record of failure, corruption and secrecy at tonight's debate. The American people have spoken and it's clear who tonight's biggest loser is, Hillary Clinton.
[that is the entirety of the article]
posted by melissasaurus at 4:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


oh my god is that GOP thing a parody
posted by you're a kitty! at 4:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Give More Than Trump started by Owen Ellickson
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 4:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


BAhahahaha! Still up! Where's lorem ipsum guys, you gotta leave space for more content later
posted by Existential Dread at 4:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Looks like the GOP accidentally posted their post-debate spin a little too early. [link to tweet w/ screenshot in case it's taken down]

MEREDITH!!?!


I was just looking at the page "5 Questions Tim Kaine was not asked"
The American people will hold Tim Kaine and Hillary Clinton accountable for their records of failure and corruption even if tonight's debate did not. Tim Kaine must be breathing a sigh of relief that he did not have to answer for these important questions:
and the rest is blank. Phew! Time Kaine must have gotten ALL the questions.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [22 favorites]


Re "driving your car on Tuesdays", this is clearly a Hillary Represents Big Government analogy gone mad.

The car thing, man, I don't even know. My guess is that the whole thing is designed to connect Clinton to the "nanny state" idea. I have dim memories of the 80s when people didn't wear seatbelts on principle because something something gubmit blah blah blah
posted by Sara C. at 4:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


The best people! The best!
posted by PenDevil at 4:24 PM on October 4, 2016


There are more, guys. 5 Questions Tim Kaine was NOT Asked

[doesn't list any questions]

Maybe Barron isn't so good with The Cyber and the like such as after all.
posted by melissasaurus at 4:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


5 Questions Tim Kaine was not asked

The American people will hold Tim Kaine and Hillary Clinton accountable for their records of failure and corruption even if tonight's debate did not. Tim Kaine must be breathing a sigh of relief that he did not have to answer for these important questions:

[also the entirety of the article]
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Maybe the car thing is to do with President Obama's self-driving car initiative?
posted by stolyarova at 4:25 PM on October 4, 2016


THIS IS GOLD
posted by you're a kitty! at 4:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


self-driving car initiative

sure why not, it makes as much sense as anything really
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


During the debate we helped fact check and monitor the conversation in real time @GOP.

This should just be retweeted at @GOP for the duration of the debate.
posted by Existential Dread at 4:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Looks like the GOP accidentally posted their post-debate spin a little too early. [link to tweet w/ screenshot in case it's taken down]

#NextPost
posted by you're a kitty! at 4:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


That WaPo article is scaring me.
Trump supporters have long worn shirts or buttons labeling Clinton a “b----,” but there’s a new T-shirt popping up at recent events with an even harsher message: “I wish Clinton had married O.J.,” the former football star who was acquitted in 1995 on charges that he murdered his ex-wife.
I'm really worried for Clinton's personal safety. On top of the violent rhetoric, you have the Trump campaign pushing the conspiracy that the only way she wins is because the system is rigged. This is exactly the heated atmosphere that drives unhinged people to...well, take matters into their own hands.

Fuck the Republican party SO HARD for standing by while this has been happening.
posted by Salieri at 4:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [34 favorites]


Is one of the questions Elvis or Johnny Cash?
posted by cmfletcher at 4:27 PM on October 4, 2016


And...404 already on the GOP site!

Note: Hillary's 404 page pokes fun at herself. The GOP 404 page is ugly about Hillary.
posted by Salieri at 4:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


A point to remember, going into the VP debates: the conventional wisdom is that the VP candidate can't do much to help their ticket, but they can harm it. Therefore, we may see the candidates not trying to win the debate so much as to make the other guy lose it. They are likely to play defense for their own side while looking for an opportunity to exploit the other side's vulnerabilities.

I think this will play to Kaine's advantage. He's a candidate with a record that is pretty uniformly neutral-to-positive, and there's not a lot of dirt on his running mate that hasn't already been played out pretty thoroughly by now. Pence on the other hand is unpopular even among his Republican constituents, and his running mate is a walking liability. Also, the Clinton campaign is clearly being managed much better than Trump's, so it may be that Kaine and Pence will be playing totally different games, with Kaine being the only one of the two who knows what the real rules are.

We shall see.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:29 PM on October 4, 2016


On the other hand, she said, Trump is the “strict dad” that America needs.

Interesting that both sides invoke paternal imagery of one of their nominees but do so in very different ways.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


The GOP 404 page is ugly about Hillary.

Wow, using that pic (not gonna link it b/c fuck that) is deeply shitty. Fuck these dudes.
posted by Existential Dread at 4:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


BRB looking for mods to turn Maxson or Motor-Runner into Trump

Huh there actually appears to be a mod that enables Trump as a FO4 companion but Nexus nixed it. So now I learned where Nexus draws the line? *confused dog face*
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:33 PM on October 4, 2016


5 Questions that Tim Kaine did not get asked:

1) What are your eyebrow grooming secrets?

2) Does Hillary enjoy the harmonica? Does Mrs. Kaine?

3) What are your best tax avoidance schemes?

4) Is Hillary on her death bed, and if so are you happy or sad about that?

5) Chelsea or Ivanka?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Is one of the questions Elvis or Johnny Cash?

WILLIE NELSON
posted by Going To Maine at 4:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


What is your name?
What is your quest?
What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
posted by Sublimity at 4:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

I've found the best response to that question to be "I don't know I always spat".
posted by Talez at 4:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


> Also, the Clinton campaign is clearly being managed much better than Trump's, so it may be that Kaine and Pence will be playing totally different games, with Kaine being the only one of the two who knows what the real rules are.


My money is on Pence is going to treat this like he's running for President, as I'm sure that is what has been pitched to him behind the scenes anyway, and over step his boundaries in terms of what a VP is actually capable of doing (not much, legally, settle a split vote and make sure to have a pulse when the President doesn't).

Kaine isn't going to go attack dog, but we are going to see a lot of own goals from Pence. With Kaine more just being the dad trying to point out that Pence is running in the wrong direction.
posted by mrzarquon at 4:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Charlie Rich, perhaps more apropo to this election:

Life's Little Ups and Downs
posted by msalt at 4:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Huh there actually appears to be a mod that enables Trump as a FO4 companion but Nexus nixed it. So now I learned where Nexus draws the line?

Valentine/Hancock 2016!
posted by bibliowench at 4:42 PM on October 4, 2016


Larry Womack's powerfully fact-filled article, linked by salix far upthread, was one of the best arguments against Hillary Hate that I have ever seen. But near the end was a throwaway reference that spoke volumes to me: "This is about a Lady MacBeth stereotype that, frankly, should never have existed in the first place." Because whatever misogyny is already ferociously powerful in our society, Hillary Clinton gets more of it, because she became known at first because of who she's married to. As First Lady, she got into the White House with nobody voting for her, and no Congressional Approval. And that's the obviously "Lady MacBeth" way to get in the front door, regardless of everything she has done since. An obviously unfair criticism, a "stereotype that should never have existed in the first place", but a powerful one.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Huh there actually appears to be a mod that enables Trump as a FO4 companion but Nexus nixed it. So now I learned where Nexus draws the line?

Nood mods are one thing; something that lays bare the ugliness of the human spirit is just over the line.
posted by cortex at 4:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Every time the news says Kaine and Pence are debating in Farmville it breaks my brain a little as I first imagine some kind of cow-clicker debate on Facebook, then I remember Longwood University is in Farmville, Va.
posted by peeedro at 4:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


Sara C. that is exactly my query. I get the racist masses following the Trump clown car and I don't need an analyst to tell me why they are. What is astonishing that it seems that the more "reasonable" Rs are marching in lockstep. Is it all about the down ticket? The supreme court? Naked tribalism? Anyone got a link where someone digs into the fiscal Rs and finds out what/if they're thinking?

It's simple cost-benefit analysis. They got worried at points about Trump losing and dragging them down with him, but when he's up in the polls they've kept their mouths shut and crossed their fingers. And now it's too late. The establishment is now in three camps:

a) Not okay with racism/deplorability, or they're on a spectrum of how much they've struggled ethically with that, but have demonstrably shown they're more interested in getting power and are willing to throw their ethics under the bus for the chance. Key figures: Paul Ryan, Ted Cruz, Mike Pence, Chris Christie (?)

b) DGAF. Key figures: Newt Gingrich, Ben Carson, Chris Christie (?)

c) #NeverTrump. Key figures: Ben Sasse, Lindsey Graham, corb
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [24 favorites]


Guess Team Trump was too busy writing those blog posts, because Team Clinton is all alone in the VPDebate Spin Room:
It began with John Podesta, the campaign chairman. He held forth for the cameras at 2:15 p.m., followed by Karen Finney, Kaine’s communications director at 3:15 p.m., then Jennifer Palmieri, Clinton’s communications chief, at 4:15 p.m., then Amanda Renteria, the political director at 5:15 p.m., and finally Robby Mook, Clinton’s campaign manager at 6:15 p.m.

Team Trump? They advised and held no organized press availabilities for reporters.
I think this is the real reason the press has mostly turned a corner on Trump - they can't get access so no need to play nice (or, as Trump would say, "What have you got to lose?").
posted by melissasaurus at 4:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


HRC shade: Number of times Trump has tweeted at @Rosie: 65
Number of times Trump has tweeted in support of Mike Pence, his running mate: 21 #VPDebate
posted by PenDevil at 4:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [44 favorites]




Valentine/Hancock 2016!

Strong disliked that.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Note: Hillary's 404 page pokes fun at herself. The GOP 404 page is ugly about Hillary.

They'll never quite get it, but this is the reason why most of what passes for conservative humor is so sweatily unfunny: the complete inability to occasionally take the foot off the accelerator and poke a little fun at themselves. For as much as right wing blowhards cry about mistreatment at the hands of Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert, they are apparently blind to the fact that much of liberal satire comes with a healthy helping of self-effacement on the side. It's why all past attempts at a conservative version of the Daily Show have been doomed to failure—they are all about the biting and the barking, with none of the chasing of one's own tail.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [41 favorites]


2. What I really want to know is how Trump came to power without appealing to other traditional Republican demographics (religious right, old money fiscal conservatives, etc), and why those groups are marching in lockstep right now despite how deeply Trump repudiates almost every traditional Republican policy. I get why poor white people in the Rust Belt would be Trump's base. I don't get why the religious right is willing to go along.

Because,

1) Many of them (other "traditional" Republicans of varying stripes) don't really believe that he means what he says - it's a negotiating tactic, it's a way to drum up support with the radical conservatives (not them, of course, you know, the *whisper* crazy ones ), it's a bunch of bafflegab to tweak and panic liberals & Dems. There've been a bunch of articles linked here where lots of lukewarm Trump supporters actually say this to journalists.

2) For the religious right especially, there have been decades of propaganda aimed squarely at their fears telling them that Dems in general & Hilary in particular are Satan's literal minions on Earth. Every single argument we've had here on MetaFilter about how however much you dislike Hilary she's better than the alternative (who will quite possibly literally destroy America) . . . . they're having the exact same conversation on the evangelical Republican side, only vice-versa.

3) Most importantly, IMO, on a quick-take soundbite level Trump's policies, such as they are, are really boilerplate ordinary Republican policies - we need a strong military because terrorism + we're the good guys who should Good Cop the world, lower taxes especially on the wealthy & corporations will create good jobs, most taxes are just the government taking your hard-earned money and giving it to a bunch of lazy bums who don't even want to look for work, everyone is too sensitive and wimpy and whiny these days. While there are plenty of Republicans or conservative-leaning folks who have been paying attention and get that Trump "policies" are either contradictory gobbledegook or no deeper than a soundbite, if you're not paying much attention he doesn't sound all that different from other Republicans.

I suspect that's the reason there was that bump in the polls before the debate - a bunch of lean/tend-Republicans who weren't paying attention before started "supporting" Trump as a sort of reflexive automatic Republican answer; then they watched or heard enough of the debate to go, "Uhhhhhh . . . maybe not. . . . ", so Clinton regained her lead.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


The best people! The best!

Man, remember when we Dems used to quake in fear of the unbeatable, flawlessly coordinated, evil genius Republican politicking machine? I guess Karl Rove retired and he was, like, the entire operation?
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


If things get too bad, Russian IP addresses will be blackholed at the border and any .RU TLD will resolve to 4chan. Like it or don't, the internet runs through the USA and our hackers are more experienced, funded and can get their grubby mitts physical access to more Tier 1 peers.

The Russians are an annoyance and a distraction to Obama... after the DNC leaks, they are so far up shit creek with Clinton, it's not even funny.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence seems to be hoping that at the very least, he can play Dick Cheney to a mostly hands-off Trump.
posted by drezdn at 5:01 PM on October 4, 2016




I ordered two sets of buttons (1 and 2). Hope they show up before the election!

Ian Millheiser is unimpressed by people gawking at the RNC's spin (full text: "As scandals go, is the RNC pre-writing content more or less troubling than Hillary Clinton not being immune to common bacterial infections?"). Personally, I'm not surprised, but I think it's worth noting as one more straw in the giant haystack of the Republican Party's organizational incompetence.
posted by Leslie Knope at 5:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"We don't do that," says WJC. "Don't lock him up. Vote."
That's part of the problem. Above a certain income level, we don't lock ANYBODY (except Bernie Madoff) up, no matter how many crimes they've committed.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"The cyber" includes archive.org, and I am so happy they've changed their policies from "we archive occasionally" to "hey, hit the 'archive now' button if we don't already have a page," so these were saved for posterity.

Who Won the Vice Presidential Debate: Americans from all across the country tuned in to watch the one and only Vice Presidential debate.... (already posted)

5 Questions Tim Kaine was NOT Asked: The American people will hold Tim Kaine and Hillary Clinton accountable for their records of failure and corruption even if tonight's debate did not. ...

It's Clear Who Lost the VP Debate, Hillary Clinton: Tim Kaine was unable to answer for his running-mate's record of failure, corruption and secrecy at tonight's debate. ...

10 Things Voters are Saying About the Debate: Voters all over the country are tuning in to tonight's Vice Presidential debate. Join in the conversation #debates2016.

Did nobody on the GOP site learn the basics of proofreading? Because it's not "short words in titles don't get capitalized;" it's "articles, conjunctions, and some prepositions don't get capitalized." Verbs - like "was" and "are" - should be capitalized.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 5:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


Man, remember when we Dems used to quake in fear of the unbeatable, flawlessly coordinated, evil genius Republican politicking machine? I guess Karl Rove retired and he was, like, the entire operation?

Not especially. But I'm aware that between 1968 and 1992 the Democrats had control of the White House for a grand total of four years. (I'm also aware that part of the reason it was only four years was that Ted Kennedy tried to knife Jimmy Carter).
posted by Francis at 5:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


That's part of the problem

The idea is we don't call for the jailing of our political opponents. We just don't. Be better than the Republicans.

If, after Trump gets his ass kicked in November, it turns out it can be proven that he broke some laws I'm sure justice will take its course. But it is inappropriate and dangerous when the Republicans call for Clinton to be thrown in prison and it is inappropriate and dangerous to chant that Trump should be thrown in prison.
posted by Justinian at 5:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


The pre-writing of counters and general nasty things to say about one's opponents is pretty much standard practice. But pushing that content to production is just dumb incompetence, and shows the relative caliber of talent in charge of gop.com.
posted by tclark at 5:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


The Russians are an annoyance and a distraction to Obama... after the DNC leaks, they are so far up shit creek with Clinton, it's not even funny.

I really hope you're not right, because if invading and annexing part of a neighboring sovereign nation we have a defense pact with and deeply repressing their people whilst both blaming the US and the west for economic issues and testing the limits of military and territorial decorum was just annoying to Obama, but a minor leak of what were actually just annoying and distracting e-mails really gets Clinton riled up. I like to imagine she's not quite as petty as that and Putin & co were already sitting in the headwaters of shit creek already for far greater crimes.
posted by neonrev at 5:10 PM on October 4, 2016


If, after Trump gets his ass kicked in November, it turns out it can be proven that he broke some laws I'm sure justice will take its course.

Yes, and candy will rain from the sky.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]




Hillary online phone bank open for outreach to Latinos in FL- sign up now if you speak Spanish!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"hey, hit the 'archive now' button if we don't already have a page,"

Tangential, but could you tell me more about this? Is this really a thing like a browser plug-in/extension or something?
posted by Golem XIV at 5:13 PM on October 4, 2016


Trump Spent '93 White House Correspondents Dinner Ogling Attendees

I've been thinking about this because it's amazing just how many women have come forward with stories of times where Trump did something gross and inappropriate that it looks more and more like a missing stair situation (at least from a "this person is creepy and makes people feel bad by being a terrible person" perspective, since there's so much baggage around the withdrawn Ivana accusation and the Epstein claims). When else have so many incidents of creepy and unacceptable behavior been reported publicly by so many people?
posted by zachlipton at 5:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


The idea is we don't call for the jailing of our political opponents. We just don't.
When do you qualify for this Political Immunity? When you're formally nominated, when you qualify for the ballot or when you first declare your candidacy?
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:15 PM on October 4, 2016




Peeeedro: Every time the news says Kaine and Pence are debating in Farmville it breaks my brain a little

I KNEW it! I knew Second Life would find its niche!

I just didn't think it would be as the home of Vice-Presidential Debates.
posted by wenestvedt at 5:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


al gore for young people? can an american explain this? he's like bernie somehow?
posted by andrewcooke at 5:19 PM on October 4, 2016


> "When do you qualify for this Political Immunity?"

Whenever your opponents prefer an actual justice system that works on a system of due process to a shrieking mob.
posted by kyrademon at 5:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


> Normally I don't go political on this page either, so I'll thank you not to use it to insult my father. #DadVader #DonTheCon #ImWithHer2016 (twitter @HamillHimself)

This is Trump
posted by homunculus at 5:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


INVESTIGATE HIM WITH DUE CAUSE HIM UP!
posted by Artw at 5:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [29 favorites]


The whole theme of this election, to me, is some variation on "we're better than this" or "we can be better" or "oh my god, we as a species need to stop being a bunch of terrible fuckups" depending on my CPL. To that end I've been saying, over and over, don't chant "lock him up" about Trump, because that's what they say about Clinton and jail without a trial is not and not representative of a healthy democracy. Just say "he deserves a fair trial." The other thing I've been saying in a lot of facebook and reddit arguments is that if some people are saying 2 + 2 = 4 and Conway is saying 2 + 2 = 7, a fair and impartial observer is going to side with the first group, call the second one a bunch of liars, and not search endlessly for compromise. In that sense, he deserves a fair trial.
posted by fomhar at 5:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


shows the relative caliber of talent in charge of gop.com.

Not necessarily - any genius can press the wrong button in a CMS (guilty). But it does show they probably don't have enough people. Two pairs of eyeballs should be minimum to set anything live, so either their workflow is faulty, they only have one intern doing stuff, or - yeah, it's just no way to run a railroad. You're not running your knitting Wordpress blog.
posted by Devonian at 5:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Well, Bill Clinton is right. Can't stop the Single Payer train.
posted by Yowser at 5:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


An actual Change Management process isn't any sort of magic. ITIL is a thing for reasons.
posted by mikelieman at 5:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


The total inability of Trump or the GOP to find even moderately competent people willing to work for them in pretty much any field other than sower of lies gives me great hope about the recruits Peter Thiel will find to make him live forever on the blood of children and build his underwater fortress of infant solipsism.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 5:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Debate Post
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


VP Debate Thread!
posted by HumuloneRanger at 5:27 PM on October 4, 2016


Many people will Google for more info on Mike Pence tonight. But they won't find a bio page on Trump's website. Because there isn't one.

This is where tonight gets somewhat interesting. Trump and Pence are running parallel campaigns, with Pence as the ambassador to the establishment GOP and to Chamber of Commerce-type Republicans. Pence must surely also be running with 2020 in mind. But tonight, Trump will be expecting loyalty above all from the guy who doesn't even get on the website or included in the non-disparagement clauses of volunteer contracts.

It complicates Kaine's prep a little: do you go after Pence's as the one with a clear political record in the House and as governor of Indiana, do you go after him as Trump's VP, or do you go after him for trying to have his cake and eat it? It'd be more politically satisfying to go with the third option -- and perhaps might rattle Pence a little -- but the overall campaign goal from Team Clinton will surely be to force Pence into defending (or not defending!) Trump at his Trumpiest, while pointing out the times not even he has been willing to agree with the top of the ticket.

I'll be following Matt Yglesias's feed: though he's walked it back a little of late, he was first to say that Pence is not a curious or intelligent man.
posted by holgate at 5:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hey, I'm old enough to remember when President Nixon awkwardly declared that Charles Manson was guilty halfway through Manson's trial. He wasn't wrong, and the lawyers who called for a mistrial didn't get it. That was back when America Was Great. (Before Nixon's blanket pardon)
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:29 PM on October 4, 2016


Obligatory: "I have a son—he’s 10 years old. He has computers. He is so good with these computers. It’s unbelievable."

Indeed.
posted by mikelieman at 5:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Charles Manson wasn't running for President!
posted by Justinian at 5:31 PM on October 4, 2016


It complicates Kaine's prep a little: do you go after Pence's as the one with a clear political record in the House and as governor of Indiana, do you go after him as Trump's VP, or do you go after him for trying to have his cake and eat it?
Pence is a vile, vile person, but I don't think that Kaine should go after his record. I think he should ask him to answer for every thing that Trump has ever said or done that goes against Pence's supposed moral scruples. You want the Evangelical folks to feel less, not more comfortable with the ticket after the debate.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yep, Kaine should talk about nothing but Trump's record, and when Pence says "Why not focus on me?" say "Because Trump's the horse you rode in on."
posted by mmoncur at 5:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


What I really want to know is how Trump came to power without appealing to other traditional Republican demographics

The Republican contest wasn't really about appealing to constituencies; it was about which candidates' views made them absolutely unacceptable. Other candidates had voting records and policy platforms that could be attacked; Trump didn't. Trump's campaign was short on specifics but yuge on mockery and divisiveness, and it therefore positioned him as a compromise between the people who hated (e.g.) Jeb! Bush and the people who hated Ted Cruz.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:39 PM on October 4, 2016


Don't forget the chat:

I Kaine't Even
posted by Surely This at 5:46 PM on October 4, 2016


(what does JCPL stand for, anyways?)
posted by frecklefaerie at 6:20 PM on October 4, 2016


ff, see the wiki link in the New Post
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016


(read the wiki earlier and didn't see it, hence why I ask here.)
posted by frecklefaerie at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016


Justinian (Campaign?) Panic Level
posted by Golem XIV at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016


Justinian Current Panic Level.
posted by infinitywaltz at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Long after I am dead historians of the future will wonder why the anxiety of a 6th century emperor was so important to 21st century Americans.
posted by Justinian at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [54 favorites]


I'm sorry if this has been brought up before but I don't really know how to search for it across so many threads without specific wording, so

You know that thing where some web dev creates and launches a site for a client and then the client doesn't pay and suddenly their site just says, "Such-and-such business doesn't pay their bills."

I'm just saying that I would go to my grave a happy man if that kind of message appeared on Trump's site is all.
posted by komara at 9:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


have it on good authority -- Mrs. H Herself -- that the real "Silver Fox" is, in fact, Cooper Anderson.

The Silver Fox reference for me is the character in Empire Falls. It isn't flattering.
posted by srboisvert at 4:19 AM on October 5, 2016


Hillary Clinton is the ruling elite. Putin doesn't like her, he doesn't like the current American paradigm with Russia, but it's a known quantity, it's a bad he knows and can live with.

I get your point that Putin will want predictable in a world leader but I am not sure he will want predictable in the sense of a continuity of US policy towards Russia.

The current ruling elite in America has been handing Russia its ass economically. Sure Putin has macho blustered about in Georgia and the Ukraine but the Russian economy? Clobbered with no sign that is going to let up. I'm not sure Putin can live with the status quo of economic freefall for too long.
posted by srboisvert at 4:58 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Long after I am dead historians of the future will wonder why the anxiety of a 6th century emperor was so important to 21st century Americans.

lt all depends whose icon is getting shattered, little ninja, 'cause it's Byzantine turtles all the way down.
posted by y2karl at 5:06 AM on October 5, 2016


koeselitz: Hillary Clinton is the ruling elite. Putin doesn't like her, he doesn't like the current American paradigm with Russia, but it's a known quantity, it's a bad he knows and can live with. I don't think he has many thoughts about Donald Trump, but if he does, I wouldn't expect them all to be glowing.

I have a different assessment. I won't go too much into the weeds on this since it's only tangentially election-related, but I do think it's important:

1) Putin is absolutely not happy with the current Russian-American paradigm. We don't need to guess at this. In a bill he just submitted to Russia's parliament:

Putin threatened to end a joint U.S.-Russian disarmament program -- in which surplus weapons-grade plutonium is processed into fuel -- unless the U.S. meets certain conditions:

* Roll back North Atlantic Treaty Organization infrastructure and reduce NATO personnel to September 2000 levels;
* Repeal the Magnitsky Act, which imposed sanctions on Russian officials involved in human rights violations;
* Repeal all U.S. sanctions against Russian individuals and businesses;
* Compensate Russians for damages incurred by U.S. sanctions and by Russia’s “forced countersanctions”;
* Present a “clear plan of irreversible destruction” of U.S. surplus plutonium.


Grandiose demands for a nuclear disarmament program that was winding down anyway, but a clear sign that Russia is watching our campaign rhetoric and is reminding us that either way Russia sees our relationship changing post-election.

2) To understand Putin is to remember he climbed the ranks of the KGB. He's an opportunist, always. He attacks at weakness. Sowing disinformation and chaos is part of the game plan, so much so that there's some evidence FSB and GRU units were running dual independent hacking operations into the DNC email system. I think it's a good bet he sees Trump as a buffoon that can be easily manipulated-- Trump's many Russian connections, his vocal admiration of Putin, Trump's pliable, willy-nilly attitude to NATO and alliances. He either sees Trump as someone who can be bought or someone who can be out bullied, and I don't think he's wrong. At the very least he appears to be trying to tip the scales to Trump in the election, which isn't a coincidence. Supposed proverb from the cold war: "Americans believe in coincidences. Russia creates them."
posted by bluecore at 6:07 AM on October 5, 2016 [21 favorites]


The wording is odd in that Bloomberg article. My understanding is that he didn't just threaten to end the plutonium destruction program -- he ended it.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:05 AM on October 5, 2016


New bumper sticker:

TRUMP: Considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law
posted by msalt at 8:58 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Can't check out sex tape. Can't find cashier in sex hardware store.

Ok i'm way way not caught up, but has no one else noticed that the syntax of that reads like a command from an old text based adventure game? like:

YOU STEP INSIDE THE DOOR OF A DIMLY LIT OFFICE. YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY DUSTY DARK WOODEN BOOKSHELVES, THE ROOM IS DIMLY LIKE BY SCONCES. TOWARDS THE REAR OF THE ROOM, THERE IS A LARGE ORNATE DESK WITH SEVERAL OBJECTS RESTING ON IT

>APPROACH DESK

THE DESK HAS A SMALL TV, A VCR, A TAPE, AND A NOTEBOOK. THE TAPE HAS "SEX" IN LARGE LETTERS ON THE FRONT, AND SMALL SCRAWLED HANDWRITING

>CHECK OUT SEX TAPE

THE REAR OF THE BOX DESCRIBES....


Seriously, all i could imagine was ">PLAY SEX TAPE" "YOU CAN'T CURRENTLY DO THAT, SOMETHINGS MISSING..."
posted by emptythought at 1:39 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


"he's known to not drink or use drugs because that's what killed his brother. There is no evidence that he's using cocaine or other drugs. It's a nasty smear."

I sort of wrote about this in a previous thread... and others somewhat said the same thing above, but rich white people don't do drugs. They might in college, maybe, but a whole lot of uptight rich people have never even smoked weed.

However, a shitload of them have prescriptions which makes it like totally different and abuse the shit out of them. Pain killers, stimulants, etc. I started encountering this with private school or upper middle class+ kids in high school who abused adderal and shit all the time.

I would completely believe he doesn't drink. Hell, i'd believe he doesn't do coke. Maybe he never has, maybe he did in the 80's. That's all totally believable to me.

But he's so blatantly obviously high as fuck. If you've known multiple people who abused stimulants, he gives like all the tells, and a lot of it has nothing to do with his behavior.

And he has a lot of cohorts in the whole "I NEVER do drugs, i just take the prescribed amount my doctor gave me!".

Anyone who doesn't buy this has never heard someone brag about talking their doctor in to prescribing them way more of X legal speed than they needed because "it just wasn't working", and now they had like as much as they wanted.

Some people keep it up, some have complete meltdowns, but holy fuck have i never seen anyone abuse prescription speed like sort of rich and rich kids(and young adults, and their parents...).

I mean it's where all us sort of poor to poor kids got it in high school and college... from them, and their parents.
posted by emptythought at 2:10 PM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


it would be so great if i never again as long as i live have to see people blithely stating that taking prescription stimulants makes you a drug addict. it's almost but not quite as tiresome as people asking me to sell them some of my adderall.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:29 PM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


did someone say that? because i saw someone criticizing abuse of prescription drugs, not proper use of a drug prescribed for a legitimate medical issue.
posted by palomar at 10:23 PM on October 5, 2016 [14 favorites]


Next thread is over here
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:56 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


bluecore: “I think it's a good bet he sees Trump as a buffoon that can be easily manipulated-- Trump's many Russian connections, his vocal admiration of Putin, Trump's pliable, willy-nilly attitude to NATO and alliances. He either sees Trump as someone who can be bought or someone who can be out bullied, and I don't think he's wrong. At the very least he appears to be trying to tip the scales to Trump in the election, which isn't a coincidence. Supposed proverb from the cold war: 'Americans believe in coincidences. Russia creates them.'”

I think this vastly overstates how "easily manipulated" Trump is. If Trump were really easily manipulated, the Republicans would have gotten rid of him by now. The unfortunate thing about a childish narcissist with a very low intelligence is that it's hard to predict what he'll choose to decide will best stroke his ego at any given moment.

I mean: you can say that he has said things on the campaign trail that seem advantageous to Russia. He has downplayed Ukraine's sovereignty, and indicated that he would be friendly toward Russia and allow Russia to pursue whatever objectives it wishes.That's wonderful and all, but Vladimir Putin is (I believe) at least smart enough to know that the things people say on the campaign trail in America mean absolutely nothing – and that goes double for Trump, who contradicts himself daily. Even Trump's economic and professional ties to Russia – his loans, his business dealings, his advisors with Muscovian connections – don't actually mean a whole lot in the final equation. This is a man who has turned his back on billions of dollars in debt, worked for taxpayers and then screwed them, turned on business partners in a heartbeat for the sake of personal benefits that were wholly illusory, etc. There's no sense in which Donald Trump is a reliable partner or even stooge.

The thing about international politics is that everyone wants a reliable partner; but a reliable partner must be a rational actor, purely in terms of seeking their own interest, and Donald Trump is not a rational actor. I'm sure Putin despises the current US stance toward Russia – I'm not at all suggesting that Hillary Clinton is SOFT ON RUSSIA!!! or anything like that. But the other side of the coin is that I don't particularly care if Hillary Clinton is SOFT ON RUSSIA!!! and in fact I wish she was more so. She seems more open to mutually beneficial partnership than Trump ever will, though her standards are pretty high. That's all I'm saying.

And, yeah – it's a little distasteful to me that election years have both candidates insisting that the other will be SOFT ON RUSSIA!!! constantly. I think we probably should let go of the need to insist constantly that Hillary Clinton is more hated than Donald Trump by the Moscow elite. It makes more sense to conclude that Putin is as stumped by Trump as everybody else: he is not in any sense a ratiional actor, so how is partnership even possible? At the very least, Putin must know that he has to wait until after the election to see what either candidate will do – even in the case of Hillary Clinton, who's never actually been president before.
posted by koeselitz at 1:45 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Putin sees a trend. Russia, Belarus, Hungary, Egypt, Turkey, Phillipines, hell, even the UK. Voters are voting away democracy. He hopes the trend continues, and will do everything in his power to see the trend continue, especially in the USA. It would be a marvelous victory for Russia if the United States fell into a strong-man quasi-dictatorship under Russia's sphere of influence.

Why would Trump not back completely his good friend and mentor once he was in power?

On the other hand, Clinton is all kinds of tough. Israel inadvertently demonstrated a while back that modern Russian AA radar has been completely pwned by electronic countermeasures in American-sourced aircraft over Syria. Obama would never put the US in a position to demonstrate likewise, as he is cautious and reserved, more than he should be at times when mustard gas is being dropped and hospitals bombed.

Clinton? She may just well. It will sell a shit-ton of American AA systems at the very least, just when Russia needs the revenue the most.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:36 PM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


(Made it.)
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 8:01 AM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


if you want to bend your brain, the kennedy-nixon debate (possibly all of them) are available on youtube. been a long time since we saw that kind of decorum and respect for opposition and moderation in a political debate.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:28 PM on October 10, 2016


Trumpkin to me is the sweet Narnian dwarf, NOT cheeto Voldemort.
posted by brujita at 3:48 PM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]


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