No more vagina pillows (at that location)
September 29, 2016 2:20 PM Subscribe
Back in 2015, Portlandia was renewed for a sixth and seventh season, and season 7 is almost upon us.
One of the many recurring sketches on the program features Toni and Candace, the owners of the Women and Women First bookstore. While the name is a play on Chicago’s Women and Children First, episodes are filmed at Porland’s In Other Words.
On Monday, after a particularly intrusive shooting session, the staff at In Other Words have put a “Fuck Portlandia!” sign in the window, written a blog post about their issues why, and cut off their relationship with the program. Additional coverage/reposting at Splitsider, Jezebel and The A.V. Club
One of the many recurring sketches on the program features Toni and Candace, the owners of the Women and Women First bookstore. While the name is a play on Chicago’s Women and Children First, episodes are filmed at Porland’s In Other Words.
On Monday, after a particularly intrusive shooting session, the staff at In Other Words have put a “Fuck Portlandia!” sign in the window, written a blog post about their issues why, and cut off their relationship with the program. Additional coverage/reposting at Splitsider, Jezebel and The A.V. Club
Sooooo... spin-off with a different cast?
ducks, runs
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
ducks, runs
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Per the AV Club I'm not sure if they skit has gotten any more or less "LOL Fred Armisen in a wig and dress" over the first six seasons but it's too bad they couldn't work it all out. Sucks if the Portlandia crew left the place a mess.
posted by GuyZero at 2:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by GuyZero at 2:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Or the humorless TV show was finally ditched by people who rightly saw no humor in it.
posted by QuietDesperation at 2:34 PM on September 29, 2016 [67 favorites]
posted by QuietDesperation at 2:34 PM on September 29, 2016 [67 favorites]
So the skit about the humorless feminist bookstore owners has been shut down by the humorless feminist bookstore owners.
Really, they care about their city and people of color and trans folks and that makes them humorless?
posted by Huck500 at 2:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [100 favorites]
Really, they care about their city and people of color and trans folks and that makes them humorless?
posted by Huck500 at 2:41 PM on September 29, 2016 [100 favorites]
So the skit about the humorless feminist bookstore owners has been shut down by the humorless feminist bookstore owners.
Really, they care about their city and people of color and trans folks and that makes them humorless?
Perhaps the right question is: is the sketch anti-trans? If Fred Armisen is in a dress, is the joke that Fred Armisen is a man in a dress, or is the joke the character itself, who happens to be a woman who is played by Fred Armisen? These things are kind of difficult to untangle - would the sketch be problematic if Melissa McCarthy were playing Fred Armisen’s role? Are the sketches on Key & Peele where Peele plays Meegan problematic?
posted by Going To Maine at 2:47 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]
Really, they care about their city and people of color and trans folks and that makes them humorless?
Perhaps the right question is: is the sketch anti-trans? If Fred Armisen is in a dress, is the joke that Fred Armisen is a man in a dress, or is the joke the character itself, who happens to be a woman who is played by Fred Armisen? These things are kind of difficult to untangle - would the sketch be problematic if Melissa McCarthy were playing Fred Armisen’s role? Are the sketches on Key & Peele where Peele plays Meegan problematic?
posted by Going To Maine at 2:47 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]
I'm not enough of an expert on comedy or transmisogyny to know if my discomfort with [ "ha ha, a man is dressed like a woman and talking funny" ] is justified.
Well, it certainly has a long history, but I personally don't think that justifies it either.
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, it certainly has a long history, but I personally don't think that justifies it either.
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't agree with all the points the bookstore makes, but they're right that show is fucking awful
posted by to sir with millipedes at 2:52 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by to sir with millipedes at 2:52 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Not in and of itself, I mean. I've seen men dressed up as women for some justifiable reasons not simply related to ha ha man in women's clothing, but I've seen too much of it that never gets beyond ha ha man in women's clothing (Milton Berle, just to give one "illustrious" example) and I've never grasped the humor of it.
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:52 PM on September 29, 2016
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:52 PM on September 29, 2016
Was the joke ever, "Fred Armisen is wearing a dress"?
posted by crashlanding at 2:52 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by crashlanding at 2:52 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
I'm genuinely curious if people who are uncomfortable with that are uncomfortable with Brownstien's Lance character. Because I go back and forth.
posted by lumpenprole at 2:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by lumpenprole at 2:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Back in the nineties riot grrrl policy was to avoid the media. Everyone was all "but whyyyyyyyyy, why won't you do whatever it takes to get your message out there".
Why? Gee, I wonder.
posted by Frowner at 2:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
Why? Gee, I wonder.
posted by Frowner at 2:58 PM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
It's not as though we're operating in a media landscape with many portrayals of feminists and feminist bookstores, either - this is about all you get.
posted by Frowner at 2:59 PM on September 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 2:59 PM on September 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
Looking at the order of how things played out, it looks like the show "stopped" being funny and suddenly started being phobic once the promised cash didn't come through, with more blame to spread to a local newspaper, after it failed to acquiesce to giving out free publicity. Still, it'll be fun to see how Candice reacts on the show, if the writers are brave enough to work this drama into the show's universe.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
Also:
The current board, staff, and volunteers were not involved in the decision, made six years ago, to allow Portlandia to film at In Other Words.
I find it interesting - more of as a sign of the times, or a description of how bookstores work, than anything else - that the store has seen a complete overturn in the decision-making staff in the past six years.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
The current board, staff, and volunteers were not involved in the decision, made six years ago, to allow Portlandia to film at In Other Words.
I find it interesting - more of as a sign of the times, or a description of how bookstores work, than anything else - that the store has seen a complete overturn in the decision-making staff in the past six years.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
I think that "this particular sketch being filmed here makes some folks in our community uncomfortable" is a sufficient bar for deciding to cut off ties with a production, whether or not it's objectively offensive or whatever.
posted by tobascodagama at 3:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [56 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 3:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [56 favorites]
I am very surprised to hear that an experienced production company was this abusive. One of my company's shops used to be next door to a common location for a popular reality show, and one day one of their security people took it upon himself to tell us they were going to block off our driveway. When our manager complained to the director the guard was fired on the spot. The fee for using a space like this in a production is usually flat, but it's also usually generous enough to cover lost business, inconvenience, and cleanup. Here in NOLA people actively vie to have their businesses and homes used for location shooting.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
I spent many years volunteering at a left bookstore. Total turnover in six years wouldn't surprise me that much, because it was a lot of work and everyone was working for free. And about every four years or so, there always seemed to be some big change in....not politics, but how to interact with the world. Which relationships would we prioritize? How would we staff and promote events? How would we shelve to highlight what?
It would not surprise me at all if, five years ago, this seemed like good fun at first - people outside of activist communities don't realize this (because y'all only see us through gross, meanspirited, lol-feminists mainstream media) but we - yes, even feminists - make fun of some of the dumber, more frustrating or more counterintuitive things that happen.
And then, just like when you laugh along with the bully before you realize that you're being bullied rather than mutually joking around, the lack of fun and reciprocity probably became apparent. If you think "hey, we share values, we can poke fun at ourselves", it can take a while to realize that no, they can poke fun at you, but it doesn't go both ways.
posted by Frowner at 3:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [60 favorites]
It would not surprise me at all if, five years ago, this seemed like good fun at first - people outside of activist communities don't realize this (because y'all only see us through gross, meanspirited, lol-feminists mainstream media) but we - yes, even feminists - make fun of some of the dumber, more frustrating or more counterintuitive things that happen.
And then, just like when you laugh along with the bully before you realize that you're being bullied rather than mutually joking around, the lack of fun and reciprocity probably became apparent. If you think "hey, we share values, we can poke fun at ourselves", it can take a while to realize that no, they can poke fun at you, but it doesn't go both ways.
posted by Frowner at 3:13 PM on September 29, 2016 [60 favorites]
Really, they care about their city and people of color and trans folks and that makes them humorless?
From the Jezebel link it sounds like they didn't care up until they weren't making enough money to cover the cost of the show using their place.
posted by P.o.B. at 3:17 PM on September 29, 2016
From the Jezebel link it sounds like they didn't care up until they weren't making enough money to cover the cost of the show using their place.
posted by P.o.B. at 3:17 PM on September 29, 2016
The Jezebel link doesn't quote the entire letter, which explains among other things that the folks running the store now never agreed to the show but were grandfathered into it.
posted by tofu_crouton at 3:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 3:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
A related digression: I've just read Hunger Makes Me a Modern Girl: a Memoir by Carrie Brownstein, and it's very well-written, she is a uniquely talented prose stylist. Note: the book doesn't go into Portlandia very much, but she has fascinating insights about other aspects of her career.
posted by ovvl at 3:19 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 3:19 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was just reading an avclub review of a very bad episode of DS9 before I stumbled on this controversy, I thought this passage provided a interesting if not complete answer to the drag/transphobia question:
"Men in drag can be funny. I love me some Monty Python and Kids In The Hall and Tootsie. But the approach is important. With Python and the Kids, the drag work didn’t rely on the basic fact of “men in dress, ha ha!” to work; the performers took their characters seriously, even if we didn’t. Same thing with Tootsie, and there, the joke was almost never about the concept of drag, but about the failings of the man doing it (he makes an ugly woman), or the horrible sexism he never realized was happening all around him. Trying to make a joke around how outrageous it is for a man to wear women’s clothing has a limited appeal. You can get a few snickers about high heels and makeup, but it dries out quickly."
posted by sherief at 3:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
"Men in drag can be funny. I love me some Monty Python and Kids In The Hall and Tootsie. But the approach is important. With Python and the Kids, the drag work didn’t rely on the basic fact of “men in dress, ha ha!” to work; the performers took their characters seriously, even if we didn’t. Same thing with Tootsie, and there, the joke was almost never about the concept of drag, but about the failings of the man doing it (he makes an ugly woman), or the horrible sexism he never realized was happening all around him. Trying to make a joke around how outrageous it is for a man to wear women’s clothing has a limited appeal. You can get a few snickers about high heels and makeup, but it dries out quickly."
posted by sherief at 3:24 PM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
"From the Jezebel link it sounds like they didn't care up until they weren't making enough money to cover the cost of the show using their place."
Years ago, I worked at a food co-op in a college town. A protest over whether selling Israeli hummus meant that we were complicit in the crimes against the Palestinian people caused years worth of teeth-gnashing and hair-rending over whether or not to ban it (and any other Israeli, or Israel-supporting companies or products).
Right now, there's a contretemps over whether to continue selling Eden Soy products, since the owner is one of those Hobby Lobby loons who thinks it's a sin to give adequate health care to women. The food co-op board has banned all discussion and has repeatedly broken their own rules of procedure to preclude people complaining about Eden Soy.
The most apparent difference is that they sell a lot of Eden Soy products, and relatively few products targeted by BDS.
posted by klangklangston at 3:30 PM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
Years ago, I worked at a food co-op in a college town. A protest over whether selling Israeli hummus meant that we were complicit in the crimes against the Palestinian people caused years worth of teeth-gnashing and hair-rending over whether or not to ban it (and any other Israeli, or Israel-supporting companies or products).
Right now, there's a contretemps over whether to continue selling Eden Soy products, since the owner is one of those Hobby Lobby loons who thinks it's a sin to give adequate health care to women. The food co-op board has banned all discussion and has repeatedly broken their own rules of procedure to preclude people complaining about Eden Soy.
The most apparent difference is that they sell a lot of Eden Soy products, and relatively few products targeted by BDS.
posted by klangklangston at 3:30 PM on September 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
I am very surprised to hear that an experienced production company was this abusive.I'm not especially surprised. In Los Angeles, location crews can be professional and courteous, or they can be careless and rude and leave a mess, and you never really know which you're going to get. Even from one season of a show to another, if there's enough turnover in the production crew (and I've seen turnover on the order of 90%) you can have a whole new set of faces that don't really care about what happened last season.
It's generally worse with reality than scripted, since reality shows can change all their locations from one season to the next and nobody will care.
posted by curiousgene at 3:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Um. I kinda thought the transphobia was ironic hipster transphobia so it bothered me but I didn't let it piss me off, that said, the other gender swap stuff on the show squicked me right the fuck out.
So...edgy humor is problematic and needs to grow into the current cultural milieu, bookstore at the edges of the current cultural milieu has criticism and tells the show to GTFO and GTFU. Seems about right to me.
I would like to request cis ppl to please refrain from trying to determine if the skit is trans mysogynist/trans antagonist and give the community that the space serves determine that for themselves instead.
posted by Annika Cicada at 3:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [39 favorites]
So...edgy humor is problematic and needs to grow into the current cultural milieu, bookstore at the edges of the current cultural milieu has criticism and tells the show to GTFO and GTFU. Seems about right to me.
I would like to request cis ppl to please refrain from trying to determine if the skit is trans mysogynist/trans antagonist and give the community that the space serves determine that for themselves instead.
posted by Annika Cicada at 3:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [39 favorites]
They went with the "Portland isn't 100% White" argument which I always find humorous.
posted by bongo_x at 3:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by bongo_x at 3:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm naturally distrustful of the Armisen character simply due to the fact that there's a lot of talk in the entertainment industry about how terrible of a person he is, specifically to women.
I cashiered and bagged his groceries when I was working at a grocery store once. He was unnecessarily condescending to me in a weird backwards manner when I was trying to give him something for free since I had mistakenly forgotten to ring it up and we had closed 10 minutes prior (he came in to shop in the last 10 minutes of being open).
I can see why some people find things on the show funny, especially people who have never been here/never moved out of the suburbs (like a lot of people I personally know), but a lot of it comes off as punching down on the city and its inhabitants. Then again, I'm also fairly defensive about this city that I call home.
posted by gucci mane at 3:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
I cashiered and bagged his groceries when I was working at a grocery store once. He was unnecessarily condescending to me in a weird backwards manner when I was trying to give him something for free since I had mistakenly forgotten to ring it up and we had closed 10 minutes prior (he came in to shop in the last 10 minutes of being open).
I can see why some people find things on the show funny, especially people who have never been here/never moved out of the suburbs (like a lot of people I personally know), but a lot of it comes off as punching down on the city and its inhabitants. Then again, I'm also fairly defensive about this city that I call home.
posted by gucci mane at 3:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
Forgot to mention that I support In Other Words in this, they're a great community center and resource. I saw Sara Marcus speak there in support of her book "Girls to the Front" many years ago and it was a lot of fun.
posted by gucci mane at 3:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by gucci mane at 3:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think that "this particular sketch being filmed here makes some folks in our community uncomfortable" is a sufficient bar for deciding to cut off ties with a production, whether or not it's objectively offensive or whatever.
Yes, (contractual obligations aside) the store had every right to end the relationship for any reason. And I doubt that Fred and Carrie (or anyone else involved in the show) would have made a huge stink about it.
But when they were the ones who put up the attention seeking sign and an angry web page making objective statements like the show is transmisogynistic because Fred wears a dress, and so their objective statements are worth examining, I think.
I mean, I thought the first season of Portlandia was funny enough, but I was honestly shocked to hear that they'd come up with 7 seasons worth of jokes, so I fully believe that it's gotten less funny. But the "dude in a dress jokes are lazy, reactionary, and actively harmful. They’re also just straight up not funny" line seems even more wrong on its face* than the reactionary "rape jokes are never funny" line.
Anyways, I'm sure they are well meaning folks, but the stores public actions here make them seem a lot more like the parody store than any place that I would want to spend my money.
*I'd love to learn more about why a man wearing a dress and a wig to play a female character reads as transphobic, so if anyone can share a 101-level link I'd go read that and not question it here. I'll admit it would be easier to understand if the joke was based on the fact that the character didn't pass, but the Bookstore sketches that I saw never even went close to that.
posted by sparklemotion at 4:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes, (contractual obligations aside) the store had every right to end the relationship for any reason. And I doubt that Fred and Carrie (or anyone else involved in the show) would have made a huge stink about it.
But when they were the ones who put up the attention seeking sign and an angry web page making objective statements like the show is transmisogynistic because Fred wears a dress, and so their objective statements are worth examining, I think.
I mean, I thought the first season of Portlandia was funny enough, but I was honestly shocked to hear that they'd come up with 7 seasons worth of jokes, so I fully believe that it's gotten less funny. But the "dude in a dress jokes are lazy, reactionary, and actively harmful. They’re also just straight up not funny" line seems even more wrong on its face* than the reactionary "rape jokes are never funny" line.
Anyways, I'm sure they are well meaning folks, but the stores public actions here make them seem a lot more like the parody store than any place that I would want to spend my money.
*I'd love to learn more about why a man wearing a dress and a wig to play a female character reads as transphobic, so if anyone can share a 101-level link I'd go read that and not question it here. I'll admit it would be easier to understand if the joke was based on the fact that the character didn't pass, but the Bookstore sketches that I saw never even went close to that.
posted by sparklemotion at 4:01 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
but I was honestly shocked to hear that they'd come up with 7 seasons worth of jokes
They didn't.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 4:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [29 favorites]
They didn't.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 4:06 PM on September 29, 2016 [29 favorites]
Ooh, it is finally the right place to tell the story of why I hate Fred Armisen! GM, I had a very similar experience.
I was at a Yo La Tengo Hannukkah show where Fred was the featured comedian. At that time I didn't know who he was as I didn't watch SNL. After the show I was hanging out at the merch table and Fred walked over. My friend, who knew him, introduced us. I had enjoyed his set and told him as much. "Hey man," I said, "you were really funny!"
In response, he stared at me in silence with a look that said "no shit, dickwad, I'm Fred Fucking Armisen."
After a few moments of that I turned to my friend, said goodnight, and left Maxwell's without any further acknowledgement of Fred's presence, four words burning a hole in my mind: Christ, what an asshole.
posted by grumpybear69 at 4:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [39 favorites]
I was at a Yo La Tengo Hannukkah show where Fred was the featured comedian. At that time I didn't know who he was as I didn't watch SNL. After the show I was hanging out at the merch table and Fred walked over. My friend, who knew him, introduced us. I had enjoyed his set and told him as much. "Hey man," I said, "you were really funny!"
In response, he stared at me in silence with a look that said "no shit, dickwad, I'm Fred Fucking Armisen."
After a few moments of that I turned to my friend, said goodnight, and left Maxwell's without any further acknowledgement of Fred's presence, four words burning a hole in my mind: Christ, what an asshole.
posted by grumpybear69 at 4:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [39 favorites]
but a lot of it comes off as punching down on the city and its inhabitants. Then again, I'm also fairly defensive about this city that I call home.
And yet, in another twist, Portlandia is apparently being used to sell Portland. All press is good press, I guess.
Also, none of these Fred Armisen stories are allowed to kill my love of Documentary Now! That cannot happen.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
And yet, in another twist, Portlandia is apparently being used to sell Portland. All press is good press, I guess.
Also, none of these Fred Armisen stories are allowed to kill my love of Documentary Now! That cannot happen.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
If a cheesy (but wonderful) supernatural drama like Grimm gets that Portland is not 100% white, why can't Portlandia?
posted by Ber at 4:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by Ber at 4:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
Or the humorless TV show
I think the bookstore segment is unfunny and unkind at best, but in general Portlandia, at least the early seasons I caught, really nails SWPL culture in Portlandia-type cities. At least, Victoria, BC was so totally like Portlandia back in the 90's. Unfortunately the feminist bookstores are long gone in Victoria, replaced by tattoo parlours and kombucha bars.
posted by My Dad at 4:16 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think the bookstore segment is unfunny and unkind at best, but in general Portlandia, at least the early seasons I caught, really nails SWPL culture in Portlandia-type cities. At least, Victoria, BC was so totally like Portlandia back in the 90's. Unfortunately the feminist bookstores are long gone in Victoria, replaced by tattoo parlours and kombucha bars.
posted by My Dad at 4:16 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
@sparklemotion: I don't know that I can prove or disprove what you're asking for.
The community that serves the space that serves as the backdrop for the show felt like it was trans misogyny in that specific context of time and place.
So it's their call. In that space, it's trans antagonist and trans misogynist. It's not like some universal maxim, it's contextual. Portlandia can film somewhere else where the community that supports the space doesn't feel that way.
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:17 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
The community that serves the space that serves as the backdrop for the show felt like it was trans misogyny in that specific context of time and place.
So it's their call. In that space, it's trans antagonist and trans misogynist. It's not like some universal maxim, it's contextual. Portlandia can film somewhere else where the community that supports the space doesn't feel that way.
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:17 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
Well I laughed. I might even try a whole show.
posted by StephenB at 4:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by StephenB at 4:18 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
it looks like the show "stopped" being funny and suddenly started being phobic once the promised cash didn't come through, with more blame to spread to a local newspaper, after it failed to acquiesce to giving out free publicity
Comments like this feel incredibly mean-spirited and like y'all didn't actually read the bookstore's actual blog post.
In Other Words appears to have removed the Facebook post ("Willamette Week is running a story about us soon. Here is why we did not give them an interview for their unethical[...] http://fb.me/RH3zyZdz") in which they said they'd told the Willamette Week newspaper to fuck off due to rape apologism in a WW article, which IOW quoted. I skimmed the IOW Facebook post when it was first making the rounds; I don't remember the exact newspaper quote or article, but the accusation of rape apologism didn't appear to be totally unjustified at the time.
posted by nicebookrack at 4:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
Comments like this feel incredibly mean-spirited and like y'all didn't actually read the bookstore's actual blog post.
In Other Words appears to have removed the Facebook post ("Willamette Week is running a story about us soon. Here is why we did not give them an interview for their unethical[...] http://fb.me/RH3zyZdz") in which they said they'd told the Willamette Week newspaper to fuck off due to rape apologism in a WW article, which IOW quoted. I skimmed the IOW Facebook post when it was first making the rounds; I don't remember the exact newspaper quote or article, but the accusation of rape apologism didn't appear to be totally unjustified at the time.
posted by nicebookrack at 4:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
Good for them. I always thought that targeting humorless man-hating second-wave feminists was weirdly anachronistic and lazy. Goddess knows contemporary third-wave feminists present ample opportunities for parody.
But that's the show in a nutshell: funny-ish—but not in the ways that Portland and Portlanders are actually funny.
posted by ottereroticist at 4:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
But that's the show in a nutshell: funny-ish—but not in the ways that Portland and Portlanders are actually funny.
posted by ottereroticist at 4:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
Okay, found the IOW post about the Williamette Week on their Facebook timeline; IOW links to this open letter / "Statement From The Survivors" to the WW editors, in response to the January 2015 Willamette Week article on Hart Noecker, "Purged," about accusations of sexual abuse against a prominent Portland activist.
Jezebel itself has an article about Noeker from February 2015.
posted by nicebookrack at 4:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Jezebel itself has an article about Noeker from February 2015.
posted by nicebookrack at 4:40 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Years ago, I worked at a food co-op in a college town."
I knew what town that was before I saw who posted it
posted by HuronBob at 4:46 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I knew what town that was before I saw who posted it
posted by HuronBob at 4:46 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
So it's their call. In that space, it's trans antagonist and trans misogynist. It's not like some universal maxim, it's contextual.
I'm sorry if it sounded like I was asking for proof. I understand that the In Other Words community found it to be anti-trans, and I am glad that the show will no longer film there.
I understand the "racism" accusation, because, as the statement says, Portlandia does not have a diverse cast, and I have the background knowledge to understand how casting 99% white people to represent a community that is less than 99% white can be racist. (I disagree that Portlandia is actually racist, but at least I understand it).
I'm missing the background knowledge to understand why a cis man playing a cis female character can be trans antagonist and trans misogynist. I mean, I get why a cis man (or cis woman) playing a trans woman could be transmisogynist (especially in the context of a joke about not passing). But I'm at at loss with this one.
posted by sparklemotion at 4:50 PM on September 29, 2016
I'm sorry if it sounded like I was asking for proof. I understand that the In Other Words community found it to be anti-trans, and I am glad that the show will no longer film there.
I understand the "racism" accusation, because, as the statement says, Portlandia does not have a diverse cast, and I have the background knowledge to understand how casting 99% white people to represent a community that is less than 99% white can be racist. (I disagree that Portlandia is actually racist, but at least I understand it).
I'm missing the background knowledge to understand why a cis man playing a cis female character can be trans antagonist and trans misogynist. I mean, I get why a cis man (or cis woman) playing a trans woman could be transmisogynist (especially in the context of a joke about not passing). But I'm at at loss with this one.
posted by sparklemotion at 4:50 PM on September 29, 2016
Getting into an entire transmisogyny background 101 discussion here seems like a derail. There are many resources available online for those who have little to no familiarity with the issues that the FPP raises and there is an entire area of this site on which people can ask for those resources.
posted by melissasaurus at 4:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by melissasaurus at 4:57 PM on September 29, 2016 [17 favorites]
Man, the Portlandia / Fred Armisen tags on Jezebel are a veritable rabbit hole of shady allusions. From the dearly departed Gawker (with a sadly departed comment section) Fred Armisen Has A Reputation. I can see how rumors to this effect could put a feminist organization off keeping ties.
posted by nicebookrack at 5:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 5:05 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
BTW a recurring extra on the Women and Women First bits was my first girlfriend back in the 90s, which seems like a very meta Portlandia joke. Too bad for her, I know she's really enjoyed the gig, especially getting to share a dressing tent with kd lang during filming of the season 4 finale.
posted by ottereroticist at 5:12 PM on September 29, 2016
posted by ottereroticist at 5:12 PM on September 29, 2016
In response, he stared at me in silence with a look that said "no shit, dickwad, I'm Fred Fucking Armisen."
I missed the "silence" part the first time I read that and thought he went full Billy Corgan on you.
posted by bongo_x at 5:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
I missed the "silence" part the first time I read that and thought he went full Billy Corgan on you.
posted by bongo_x at 5:15 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
I would like to request cis ppl to please refrain from trying to determine if the skit is trans mysogynist/trans antagonist and give the community that the space serves determine that for themselves instead.
This so much.
Also.
posted by AFABulous at 5:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
This so much.
Also.
posted by AFABulous at 5:26 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Woah, In Other Words looks like a really cool store! Way more interesting than the caricature on Portlandia. I had no idea.
posted by teponaztli at 5:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by teponaztli at 5:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
I remember reading the comments on that Gawker article, and feeling gross about being a fan of his, to the point where I stopped watching Portlandia. I wonder how Brownstein puts up with him if even half of the stories are true.
posted by JLovebomb at 5:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by JLovebomb at 5:51 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
@grumpbear69: dang, my interaction with Fred was not that bad! Basically what happened with me was I had just gotten done working a 12 hour shift running between the meat counter and cashiering, because my stupid store manager didn't know how to schedule anyone and scheduled only one cashier for the entire day. Fred came in at 8:50, when we closed at 9, and did all his shopping. I don't fault him for that, because a lot of people do that, but I think maybe this made my opinion of him a bit sour. Everyone was super stoked that he came in and I just wanted to go to bed. Anyway, I busted through his stuff and bagged it all and he paid in cash. Then he pointed out that I had forgotten to ring up a birthday card and that he didn't have his credit card on him and needed to run somewhere to get it because he was out of cash. I told him to just take the birthday card because it was like $2 and I knew my boss wouldn't care. He told me he insisted on paying for it. I told him I made a mistake and to not worry about it. He kept insisting on paying for it! Now, the reason I've been calling him Fred is because at this point in the exchange I said "Fred, seriously, it's like $2, just take it" but in a cordial, friendly way. He gave me a sort of shitty look and said "I assure you I can afford a $2 birthday card, just like anybody else, but since you insist on making this transaction difficult I guess I'll have to take it for free." Dude, it's a $2 birthday card. I had the authority to give people things for free up to a certain point. I, and my bosses, regularly did this because it was a family-owned grocery store in a ritzy neighborhood (the Pearl district) and it was just a way of differentiating us from places like Fred Meyer, or Market of Choice, or Zupan's, or New Seasons, etc. The entire exchange probably didn't take very long but it was agonizing for me because the whole store was watching and I was just trying to leave, not insult this actor. It was a totally normal transaction! Ugh. And yeah no shit Fred, I know you can afford it. I didn't just ring up $100-something worth of groceries and know your name because you're some poor guy that just walked in off Highway 30. His actions weren't necessarily mean, he was just pushy and obstinate and then decided to drop that line on me when I was trying to be nice and own up for a mistake I had made.
posted by gucci mane at 5:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by gucci mane at 5:55 PM on September 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
I've never seen Portlandia but I really like Sleater-Kinney so I'm pretty surprised, disappointed, and puzzled to learn that the show is kind of gross.
posted by a mirror and an encyclopedia at 6:16 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by a mirror and an encyclopedia at 6:16 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I like Portalandia because, living in hipsterville and being a hipster myself, it's like watching a documentary. It's super accurate.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 6:19 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 6:19 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Fred Armisen Has A Reputation.
I heard he steals birthday cards he could easily afford.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:19 PM on September 29, 2016 [49 favorites]
I heard he steals birthday cards he could easily afford.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:19 PM on September 29, 2016 [49 favorites]
From the little of Portlandia I have seen, (I know, I know,) it always seemed like they completely missed an opportunity for real biting satire about a city transforming from slackerville to ambitious bourgie town, and instead went for low hanging kinda fake fruit to make fun of.
posted by Pembquist at 6:27 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Pembquist at 6:27 PM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
I generally enjoy the Portlandia skits I've seen, but I consistently find the feminist bookstore skits off-putting. It felt like it was creating this group of straw feminists in order to make fun of them, which feels too similar to how certain groups of people represent feminists online. This was further reinforced for me when an "anti-SJW" type coworker I had really, really enjoyed those skits for lampooning feminists. It just felt like it was playing into their expectations.
That said, I'd really like to see a skit-based or cast-based (a la Nero Wolfe) show that had equal gender representation in the cast, but assigned gendered-roles agnostic to the gender of the person playing the role, with men often playing women and women often playing men. I'd find that sort of queering of the show very refreshing.
That said, I can completely understand how trans individuals could find certain portrayals of women by men (or vice versa) to be offensive. It's definitely an area that it's easy to mess up, intentionally or otherwise.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:36 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
That said, I'd really like to see a skit-based or cast-based (a la Nero Wolfe) show that had equal gender representation in the cast, but assigned gendered-roles agnostic to the gender of the person playing the role, with men often playing women and women often playing men. I'd find that sort of queering of the show very refreshing.
That said, I can completely understand how trans individuals could find certain portrayals of women by men (or vice versa) to be offensive. It's definitely an area that it's easy to mess up, intentionally or otherwise.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:36 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Portlandia is hard to judge because you'd think everyone involved would be aware enough of the issues at hand to be respectful of the people in the situations they are lampooning, but I suspect that, like many "genius" shows that started bright and strong, that they just disappeared up their own butts and stopped paying attention to the world beyond the show.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:44 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:44 PM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
they just disappeared up their own butts and stopped paying attention to the world beyond the show
Which is appropriate, since I and my crew try our damndest to pretend the world outside our hipsterville doesn't exist.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 6:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Which is appropriate, since I and my crew try our damndest to pretend the world outside our hipsterville doesn't exist.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 6:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was confused by one thing in the blog post. Are people actually moving to Portland because of Portlandia? I haven't watched for a while, but I thought it made the city look pretty annoying.
posted by Alluring Mouthbreather at 6:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Alluring Mouthbreather at 6:49 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
My thoughts:
(a) I generally like Portlandia but haven't seen the last season or maybe two, so I don't know about its decline or not. I like Carrie and kinda tolerate Fred because I enjoy shows making fun of hippies.
(b) I think it's fair for the bookstore to kick them out if they're wrecking the place, etc.
(c) On the other hand, their sheer obnoxiousness is super putting me off and I would not want to be around people that vicious. They make some points, but at the same time...ugh, really do not want to go there.
(d) There are plenty of stories about Fred being jerktastic (plus well, dude has this bug eyed, fish lips thing going on that doesn't help either), which...yeah, I don't know how the heck Carrie is fine with that?
(e) I kind of agree that if someone's playing a cross-gender character and committing to the bit rather than "look, I am a dude in a dress", it doesn't really bother me. I don't LIKE his characters of Toni and Nina (shut up about the fucking cacao already), mind you, but that's because they're obnoxious personalities. I'm not super fond of Lance either, but he's less irritating, so fine. But yeah, some people probably are gonna be offended by that. On the other hand I come from improv and they're all "play whatever gender," so...*shrug*
(f) I never have liked Toni and Candice and their humorless snobbery thing, so if they cut that from the show altogether rather than moving to another location, I'd be fine with that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
(a) I generally like Portlandia but haven't seen the last season or maybe two, so I don't know about its decline or not. I like Carrie and kinda tolerate Fred because I enjoy shows making fun of hippies.
(b) I think it's fair for the bookstore to kick them out if they're wrecking the place, etc.
(c) On the other hand, their sheer obnoxiousness is super putting me off and I would not want to be around people that vicious. They make some points, but at the same time...ugh, really do not want to go there.
(d) There are plenty of stories about Fred being jerktastic (plus well, dude has this bug eyed, fish lips thing going on that doesn't help either), which...yeah, I don't know how the heck Carrie is fine with that?
(e) I kind of agree that if someone's playing a cross-gender character and committing to the bit rather than "look, I am a dude in a dress", it doesn't really bother me. I don't LIKE his characters of Toni and Nina (shut up about the fucking cacao already), mind you, but that's because they're obnoxious personalities. I'm not super fond of Lance either, but he's less irritating, so fine. But yeah, some people probably are gonna be offended by that. On the other hand I come from improv and they're all "play whatever gender," so...*shrug*
(f) I never have liked Toni and Candice and their humorless snobbery thing, so if they cut that from the show altogether rather than moving to another location, I'd be fine with that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
That said, I can completely understand how trans individuals could find certain portrayals of women by men (or vice versa) to be offensive.
It's not that it's merely offensive. It's flat-out physically dangerous to trans women that people see them as "men in dresses." This stuff perpetuates that notion.
As a trans man, I face little risk of assault, but I don't need anyone thinking I'm just playing "dress up" either.
posted by AFABulous at 6:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
It's not that it's merely offensive. It's flat-out physically dangerous to trans women that people see them as "men in dresses." This stuff perpetuates that notion.
As a trans man, I face little risk of assault, but I don't need anyone thinking I'm just playing "dress up" either.
posted by AFABulous at 6:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this at all.
It's a little suspicious that they're just now, after seven years of allowing the show to film there, all of a sudden claiming to be offended and inconvenienced by the show. It just reeks to high heaven of a business scrambling to save face among its alienated customers and its annoyed neighbours by saying, "Yeah, fuck those guys," despite no one being to blame for Portlandia shooting there but themselves.
That said, the book store sketches have always rubbed me the wrong way for all the same reasons given upthread.
posted by Sys Rq at 7:04 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's a little suspicious that they're just now, after seven years of allowing the show to film there, all of a sudden claiming to be offended and inconvenienced by the show. It just reeks to high heaven of a business scrambling to save face among its alienated customers and its annoyed neighbours by saying, "Yeah, fuck those guys," despite no one being to blame for Portlandia shooting there but themselves.
That said, the book store sketches have always rubbed me the wrong way for all the same reasons given upthread.
posted by Sys Rq at 7:04 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ugh that fucking show. It's somehow super annoying and dead accurate (I just left Portland after 9 years there) and not funny all at the same time. And yeah, they should just lose those characters anyway.
Ok, maybe occasionally funny. The BSG skit was pretty good.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ok, maybe occasionally funny. The BSG skit was pretty good.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:12 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was confused by one thing in the blog post. Are people actually moving to Portland because of Portlandia? I haven't watched for a while, but I thought it made the city look pretty annoying.
Seems cool to me.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:32 PM on September 29, 2016
Seems cool to me.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 7:32 PM on September 29, 2016
I used to volunteer in a space similar to In Other Words in Philadelphia. Because these spaces are volunteer-run, they turn over people with astonishing frequency. They're staffed by students, by unemployed people (both those in between jobs and those who are perpetually unemployed for whatever reason), by people with the sorts of jobs that give you odd hours off in the middle of the week (service industry, retail, etc). The minute someone takes on a heavier course load, or gets a 9-5 job, or has a crisis and moves back in with their parents, things change. Institutional knowledge has to pass to new people, and then those people go through the cycle of crashing and burning, and it all repeats again. It's not like working for a national chain where there would be protocols in place for filming, or a small store with a single owner who calls the shots. Everything is decided based on consensus, by a forever shifting cast.
This constant stream of new people then leads to the kind of subtle every-few-years ideological shifts Frowner mentions upthread. I can totally see a scenario where In Other Words got a new crop of transfeminine volunteers for the first time in a while, and they're the ones who pushed back against Fred Arnisen's schtick. Maybe a bunch of people who are involved in affordable housing campaigns when they're not at the store, who brought up the use of Portlandia in real estate ads. The point is, I'd bet a million bucks that the current group that is kicking Portlandia out comes from a completely different context than whoever made the deal in the first place. And that's great; that's what a healthy growth process for a radical space looks like. I quit volunteering at my local space in part because the same dude's been stuck in the book ordering role forever, and the space can't change ideologically if he won't let marginalized people in on that process. In Other Words is taking the concerns of marginalized people seriously when so many radical spaces talk a good game but ultimately give all their power to white men.
posted by ActionPopulated at 7:34 PM on September 29, 2016 [34 favorites]
This constant stream of new people then leads to the kind of subtle every-few-years ideological shifts Frowner mentions upthread. I can totally see a scenario where In Other Words got a new crop of transfeminine volunteers for the first time in a while, and they're the ones who pushed back against Fred Arnisen's schtick. Maybe a bunch of people who are involved in affordable housing campaigns when they're not at the store, who brought up the use of Portlandia in real estate ads. The point is, I'd bet a million bucks that the current group that is kicking Portlandia out comes from a completely different context than whoever made the deal in the first place. And that's great; that's what a healthy growth process for a radical space looks like. I quit volunteering at my local space in part because the same dude's been stuck in the book ordering role forever, and the space can't change ideologically if he won't let marginalized people in on that process. In Other Words is taking the concerns of marginalized people seriously when so many radical spaces talk a good game but ultimately give all their power to white men.
posted by ActionPopulated at 7:34 PM on September 29, 2016 [34 favorites]
If a cheesy (but wonderful) supernatural drama like Grimm gets that Portland is not 100% white, why can't Portlandia?
Aww, I will miss Grimm. Grimm is indeed cheesetastic, but it's hugely enjoyable just to watch how enthusiastically the show embraces being set in Portland, instead of "generic Vancouver skyscrapers masquerading as NYC and LA" like every other supernatural drama. The show isn't perfect on issues like race, but it's always had people of color in the cast and the lore.
Maybe Portlandia needs some shaking up from an aswang.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Aww, I will miss Grimm. Grimm is indeed cheesetastic, but it's hugely enjoyable just to watch how enthusiastically the show embraces being set in Portland, instead of "generic Vancouver skyscrapers masquerading as NYC and LA" like every other supernatural drama. The show isn't perfect on issues like race, but it's always had people of color in the cast and the lore.
Maybe Portlandia needs some shaking up from an aswang.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
PUT A BIRD
ON IT
AND
MOVE
ON
posted by not_on_display at 9:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
They went with the "Portland isn't 100% White" argument which I always find humorous.
Why do you find that humorous? Portland is 28% POC even just in the city, and Beaverton, Hillsboro, and other surrounding communities are more diverse.
posted by msalt at 10:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Why do you find that humorous? Portland is 28% POC even just in the city, and Beaverton, Hillsboro, and other surrounding communities are more diverse.
posted by msalt at 10:31 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
They went with the "Portland isn't 100% White" argument which I always find humorous.
Given the nature of Portland's founding and civic regulations for many of its early years, I don't know whether this is a humor thing or an irony thing.
posted by hippybear at 12:33 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Given the nature of Portland's founding and civic regulations for many of its early years, I don't know whether this is a humor thing or an irony thing.
posted by hippybear at 12:33 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
(Note that I write this living in the greater Spokane area, which is 87% white compared with Portland's 76%, so I'm not throwing stones into a pond I don't also share. I don't think Spokane had any explicit "no blacks allowed" policies like Portland did, but I'm not a deep student of Spokane history.)
posted by hippybear at 12:37 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 12:37 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's somehow super annoying and dead accurate (I just left Portland after 9 years there) and not funny all at the same time.
Well yeah. If you portray annoying, obnoxious people accurately you just get a show full of obnoxious, annoying people. You need to do something more to actually make them funny and from what I've seen of Portlandia it hasn't really tried doing that.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:48 AM on September 30, 2016
Well yeah. If you portray annoying, obnoxious people accurately you just get a show full of obnoxious, annoying people. You need to do something more to actually make them funny and from what I've seen of Portlandia it hasn't really tried doing that.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:48 AM on September 30, 2016
Funny, I happened to see Fred Armisen a few months ago. I am terrible with faces, so I wouldn't have recognized him if he had not been having a conversation at the corner with the young woman he was with (that voice!). I walked by them (because I'm a fast walker) and he audibly mumbled something about my ass as I passed him, in a plausibly deniable way. It was kind of skeevy.
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 2:20 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 2:20 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Portlandia wishes it was edgy enough for the "Fred Armisen in drag" thing to be trans-phobic. Nope, it's that same tired old trope of "feminists are mannish and that's funny because they should be feminine, amirite?" Which was unfunny literally generations ago.
I don't want to get too judgy towards In Other Words' post because their decision to part ways with Portlandia seems well founded, but throwing in the trans issue reminds me of the HEY LOOK I CAN NAME ALL THE ISSUES oneupmanship (oneup-person-ship?) that overtook way too many conversations when I was running in a lot of activisty circles. Maybe let's not risk weakening very important causes by shoehorning them in everywhere?
Anyway, Portlandia always kind of annoyed me for resorting to that kind of facile humor (and - I say this as someone frequently accused of being a hipster - they have SO MUCH to work with), and this plus the Fred Armisen grossness just adds to the reasons.
posted by AV at 4:32 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't want to get too judgy towards In Other Words' post because their decision to part ways with Portlandia seems well founded, but throwing in the trans issue reminds me of the HEY LOOK I CAN NAME ALL THE ISSUES oneupmanship (oneup-person-ship?) that overtook way too many conversations when I was running in a lot of activisty circles. Maybe let's not risk weakening very important causes by shoehorning them in everywhere?
Anyway, Portlandia always kind of annoyed me for resorting to that kind of facile humor (and - I say this as someone frequently accused of being a hipster - they have SO MUCH to work with), and this plus the Fred Armisen grossness just adds to the reasons.
posted by AV at 4:32 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Those stats say Portland is by population:
Black or African American alone, percent, April 1, 2010 (a) 6.3%
where did you get that 28%?
posted by mary8nne at 5:31 AM on September 30, 2016
Black or African American alone, percent, April 1, 2010 (a) 6.3%
where did you get that 28%?
posted by mary8nne at 5:31 AM on September 30, 2016
POC does not = Black. You've got some math to do and I'll leave you to it.
posted by selfnoise at 5:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 5:58 AM on September 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
People of color who aren't Black. In the PNW, most POC are Hispanic, Asian, or Native American.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:00 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:00 AM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
You know, I didn't realize Portland was 28% POC. Here in flyover country, the impression I'd gotten from the media was that Portland was way whiter than even that. To me, this makes the various super-duper-white media I've noticed about/set-in/etc Portland even more egregious. MPLS-St Paul is only 22% POC but any portrait of MPLS-St Paul that leaves out the diversity of people of color here is radically untrue to the real life of the city.
posted by Frowner at 6:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Frowner at 6:18 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
...and with media like portlandia reinforcing that I completely understand why you would.
One thing I've experienced in (albeit North and downtown) Portland is that the city seems pretty diverse, at least more so than Austin.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
One thing I've experienced in (albeit North and downtown) Portland is that the city seems pretty diverse, at least more so than Austin.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:27 AM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Portlandia proved that Mike Nesmith is Dale Cooper's father, so for that it gets a gold star in my brain
posted by Lucinda at 6:53 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Lucinda at 6:53 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Are people using statistics for just the city of Portland itself or the metro area? I'm asking because I noticed that Frowner used a 22% POC figure for the Twin Cities and I'm pretty sure that's a metro area statistic both from the number and the way she described it.
posted by Alluring Mouthbreather at 6:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Alluring Mouthbreather at 6:54 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, the cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul proper are 36% POC and 33% POC respectively. The suburbs are significantly whiter, despite my best efforts to fix that.
Frowner's point stands, even at 22% POC for the whole metro -- even Fargo (1996) doesn't pretend that the Twin Cities is all white.
I kind of give Portlandia a pass on the diversity issue, because it's always been a show that lovingly pokes fun at the "worst" parts of Portland, and the things it likes to poke fun at are very Stuff White People Like-esque.
posted by sparklemotion at 7:31 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Frowner's point stands, even at 22% POC for the whole metro -- even Fargo (1996) doesn't pretend that the Twin Cities is all white.
I kind of give Portlandia a pass on the diversity issue, because it's always been a show that lovingly pokes fun at the "worst" parts of Portland, and the things it likes to poke fun at are very Stuff White People Like-esque.
posted by sparklemotion at 7:31 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
What a marketing coup for this show I haven't thought about in 5 years! The publicist must be over the moon.
posted by cnanderson at 8:43 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by cnanderson at 8:43 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Are people using statistics for just the city of Portland itself or the metro area?
The funny thing about Portland is that due to the Urban Growth Boundary mandate, I think the city and its metro area are very nearly synonymous.
posted by jackbrown at 8:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
The funny thing about Portland is that due to the Urban Growth Boundary mandate, I think the city and its metro area are very nearly synonymous.
posted by jackbrown at 8:52 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
To be fair, the man-in-a-dress gag does look very 1970s these days. It's like the silly foreigners in Mind Your Language, or the old British comedy trope of the Pervert, who was equal parts voyeur, exhibitionist, swinger and homosexual, turned up to 11. (Remember when gay people were seen as ridiculous?)
posted by acb at 9:14 AM on September 30, 2016
posted by acb at 9:14 AM on September 30, 2016
To be fair, gay people are still perceived to be ridiculous by a vast number of the US population. Until they have one in their social circle, and then attitudes change. Well, they mostly change.
Harvey Milk was correct when he talked about how important coming out is for social change.
The man-in-a-dress trope in sketch comedy, I thought, had become less about a man in a dress and more about characterization a couple of decades ago, but apparently it's still regarded as scandalous enough to be offensive. I didn't think of any of the men-as-women portrayals in, say, The League Of Gentlemen to be about men dressed as women, and more to be about the character of the woman being portrayed. Same with (to be honest) Monty Python or even (the few times I've watched) Portlandia. Perhaps I'm viewing it with too nuanced an eye? Is it still really such a major trope in society?
No wonder North Carolina has so much queer panic in their legislature.
posted by hippybear at 9:30 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Harvey Milk was correct when he talked about how important coming out is for social change.
The man-in-a-dress trope in sketch comedy, I thought, had become less about a man in a dress and more about characterization a couple of decades ago, but apparently it's still regarded as scandalous enough to be offensive. I didn't think of any of the men-as-women portrayals in, say, The League Of Gentlemen to be about men dressed as women, and more to be about the character of the woman being portrayed. Same with (to be honest) Monty Python or even (the few times I've watched) Portlandia. Perhaps I'm viewing it with too nuanced an eye? Is it still really such a major trope in society?
No wonder North Carolina has so much queer panic in their legislature.
posted by hippybear at 9:30 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
(I do accept that my involvement with the faerie culture across the years, which has men who identify as men but who like wearing dresses [like with the character Colin from High Maintenance] either as a lifestyle or as a cultural genderfuck, might have colored my own perceptions well beyond what the standard culture perceives.)
posted by hippybear at 9:32 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 9:32 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
I guess the question is, are all men dressed as women portraying women in sketch comedy doing it as a punchline, or are they doing it to create a character?
I haven't seen enough Portlandia to have any opinion about this particular instance, but the larger question is worth examining. Like, with Kids In The Hall. They had men dressed as women many times, but it didn't feel like a punchline to me. Are my perceptions off about things like this, in comparison to the larger culture?
posted by hippybear at 9:43 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
I haven't seen enough Portlandia to have any opinion about this particular instance, but the larger question is worth examining. Like, with Kids In The Hall. They had men dressed as women many times, but it didn't feel like a punchline to me. Are my perceptions off about things like this, in comparison to the larger culture?
posted by hippybear at 9:43 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
(Also, I haven't seen enough Portlandia to know if Armiston's depiction of a female character is, in and of itself, offensive. I'm only questioning whether it's truly still "oh, that male actor is portraying a woman by wearing a dress" that is a punchline in today's sketch comedy culture like it was in Milton Berle's day, or whether we've moved beyond that. If the character is offensive, I truly respect that. If it's just simply a man putting on a dress that is a punchline, I don't feel like I've seen that in a long time except in maybe Adam Sandler movies.)
posted by hippybear at 9:59 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 9:59 AM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think we are talking past each other at this point, so I respect your unwillingness to help me understand.
posted by hippybear at 10:03 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 10:03 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
This gets into some of the finer inside baseball on "does drag belong in the trans umbrella or not" debate.
I'm a "big tent" trans gal, others have differing opinions.
At the base of it, I think intent does matter, but time and place matters more.
And something that was okay 20, or even 3 years ago, can be understood as "happened then and was fine, but now things have changed and that kind of play don't fly now".
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:12 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm a "big tent" trans gal, others have differing opinions.
At the base of it, I think intent does matter, but time and place matters more.
And something that was okay 20, or even 3 years ago, can be understood as "happened then and was fine, but now things have changed and that kind of play don't fly now".
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:12 AM on September 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
The funny thing about Portland is that due to the Urban Growth Boundary mandate, I think the city and its metro area are very nearly synonymous.
I don't think that's accurate. The Portland metro area includes poorer suburbs such as Gresham and Hillsboro (which is 22% Latino), and even a city in a different state -- Vancouver WA which is very white though 10% Latino.
What Portland is becoming is a European style city with poorer suburbs and a wealthier inner city -- like New York and San Francisco -- as opposed to the typical American pattern of poor inner city and wealthy suburbs (with Detroit being the archetype).
Perhaps what you mean is that the Portland metro area is nearly synonymous with the Urban Growth Boundary, which is true except for Vancouver again. But no one keeps stats on the Urban Growth area's demographics.
posted by msalt at 10:16 AM on September 30, 2016
I don't think that's accurate. The Portland metro area includes poorer suburbs such as Gresham and Hillsboro (which is 22% Latino), and even a city in a different state -- Vancouver WA which is very white though 10% Latino.
What Portland is becoming is a European style city with poorer suburbs and a wealthier inner city -- like New York and San Francisco -- as opposed to the typical American pattern of poor inner city and wealthy suburbs (with Detroit being the archetype).
Perhaps what you mean is that the Portland metro area is nearly synonymous with the Urban Growth Boundary, which is true except for Vancouver again. But no one keeps stats on the Urban Growth area's demographics.
posted by msalt at 10:16 AM on September 30, 2016
Mod note: Couple comments deleted; it'd be easy for this to sort of accelerate into a pretty not-great string of arguments and I'd like folks to help avoid that.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:24 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:24 AM on September 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mod note: A couple comments removed; please think real hard before deciding that a given Yeah But What About X take on whether transphobia is really a thing or... is gonna actually make for a better thread rather than just a sort of reflexively make it more hostile for folks with skin in the game.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:06 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:06 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Honestly, I'm surprised that it's taken this long for a story about Portlanders that are against Portlandia to get widespread attention. Judging from my personal (and thus anecdotal) experience they've really worn out their welcome in the city...
When Portlandia first started I think a lot of people here were on the fence about it - it was pretty common to have friends or family members who were extras or bit players in a skit and that was kind of cool / flattering, given that there isn't much a film industry here.
At the same time the show was annoying because it didn't portray the city particularly accurately. I mean, sure, there are a bunch of hipster kooks here, but that isn't specific to Portland; if you go to Etsy you're gonna find a lot of shit that has "birds on it" that were made in any number of less hip places.
Furthermore, it seems like they slapping the "Portland" label on trends that weren't necessarily created or based here but which were just generic trends amongst millennials. E.g., their skit in the first season where adults get way too into playing hide and seek was built around making fun of grown ups who can't let childish things go - but I know of several adult kickball leagues in different cities around the country, and it seems like the people who go to them are aware that what they are doing is semi-ridiculous but that's part of why they like it. Acting as if all the people who do that are juvenile idiots is pretty condescending, actually, given that they are harmlessly goofing off with their friends and getting some light physical activity in.
However, over the last few years the novelty of the show really wore off. In fact, it has become actively annoying to have to see anything to do with the show. A huge part of that is that the city is currently in a massive real-estate crunch which has caused the average rental price of apartments to rise a few hundred bucks per month while wages have stayed stagnant, a situation which is obviously stressful for people who want to continue to live here. There have been a lot of evictions, and a lot of buildings have been bulldozed to make room for wildly unaffordable condos, and all of the city's renters are kind of on edge. So when I saw an article about "The real Portland behind Portlandia!" on an in-flight magazine last year that specifically told people from the Bay Area to move here because the housing market was so much more affordable my blood just started to boil.
Now obviously the show can't be completely blamed for all the gentrification problems - but it does feel like the show raised the city's profile and that can't have helped the situation... Furthermore, it is also logical to associate the show with those problems given that there are Portlandia-themed real estate ads visible around the town. They probably get blamed for a bit too much but they kind of brought it on themselves.
Still, regardless of whether or not Portlandia is a major factor in the city's most pressing problems it definitely feeds into it's smaller ones. For example, there used to be a display case for local hand-made goods at my nearest grocery store... And that got taken down to make room for a display of mass manufactured Portlandia merchandise. Leaving aside personal taste ( - although for the record I think it is undeniable that the old Bigfoot mugs were so much cooler than the current unfunny joke cookbooks - ) the fact is that Portlandia came to Portland because they thought it was a unique place and then they directly helped to make it more of a blandly bougie town that's chockablock with shitty consumer shit. That is ironic at best and actively unacceptable at worst.
posted by Kiablokirk at 6:45 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
When Portlandia first started I think a lot of people here were on the fence about it - it was pretty common to have friends or family members who were extras or bit players in a skit and that was kind of cool / flattering, given that there isn't much a film industry here.
At the same time the show was annoying because it didn't portray the city particularly accurately. I mean, sure, there are a bunch of hipster kooks here, but that isn't specific to Portland; if you go to Etsy you're gonna find a lot of shit that has "birds on it" that were made in any number of less hip places.
Furthermore, it seems like they slapping the "Portland" label on trends that weren't necessarily created or based here but which were just generic trends amongst millennials. E.g., their skit in the first season where adults get way too into playing hide and seek was built around making fun of grown ups who can't let childish things go - but I know of several adult kickball leagues in different cities around the country, and it seems like the people who go to them are aware that what they are doing is semi-ridiculous but that's part of why they like it. Acting as if all the people who do that are juvenile idiots is pretty condescending, actually, given that they are harmlessly goofing off with their friends and getting some light physical activity in.
However, over the last few years the novelty of the show really wore off. In fact, it has become actively annoying to have to see anything to do with the show. A huge part of that is that the city is currently in a massive real-estate crunch which has caused the average rental price of apartments to rise a few hundred bucks per month while wages have stayed stagnant, a situation which is obviously stressful for people who want to continue to live here. There have been a lot of evictions, and a lot of buildings have been bulldozed to make room for wildly unaffordable condos, and all of the city's renters are kind of on edge. So when I saw an article about "The real Portland behind Portlandia!" on an in-flight magazine last year that specifically told people from the Bay Area to move here because the housing market was so much more affordable my blood just started to boil.
Now obviously the show can't be completely blamed for all the gentrification problems - but it does feel like the show raised the city's profile and that can't have helped the situation... Furthermore, it is also logical to associate the show with those problems given that there are Portlandia-themed real estate ads visible around the town. They probably get blamed for a bit too much but they kind of brought it on themselves.
Still, regardless of whether or not Portlandia is a major factor in the city's most pressing problems it definitely feeds into it's smaller ones. For example, there used to be a display case for local hand-made goods at my nearest grocery store... And that got taken down to make room for a display of mass manufactured Portlandia merchandise. Leaving aside personal taste ( - although for the record I think it is undeniable that the old Bigfoot mugs were so much cooler than the current unfunny joke cookbooks - ) the fact is that Portlandia came to Portland because they thought it was a unique place and then they directly helped to make it more of a blandly bougie town that's chockablock with shitty consumer shit. That is ironic at best and actively unacceptable at worst.
posted by Kiablokirk at 6:45 PM on September 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Also, I volunteer at the Hollywood movie theater here in Portland and last week Fred Armisen came in to buy a ticket to the new Ron Howard documentary about the Beatles. He ended up in my line but then spent most of our interaction staring at my female coworker who was at the next register over. We both agreed that it was unnecessarily creepy.
posted by Kiablokirk at 6:50 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Kiablokirk at 6:50 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
the fact is that Portlandia came to Portland because they thought it was a unique place and then they directly helped to make it more of a blandly bougie town that's chockablock with shitty consumer shit. That is ironic at best and actively unacceptable at worst.
Probably ironic, given that Carrie Brownstein is (was?) a long-time resident. (She moved away at some point, but I don’t know if she ever moved back.)
posted by Going To Maine at 6:56 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Probably ironic, given that Carrie Brownstein is (was?) a long-time resident. (She moved away at some point, but I don’t know if she ever moved back.)
posted by Going To Maine at 6:56 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I guess the question is, are all men dressed as women portraying women in sketch comedy doing it as a punchline, or are they doing it to create a character?
I can totally see your position and where you're coming from, but it kinda doesn't matter whether or not the man-in-a-dress comedy character is abstractly, academically problematic. The sad reality is, enough people are going to read our receive it in a problematic way (because the subtle nuance you're talking in is entirely lost on much of the cishet world) that what odinsdream says it's true - it actively creates danger for trans women with the views it engenders and reinforces.
posted by Dysk at 7:34 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I can totally see your position and where you're coming from, but it kinda doesn't matter whether or not the man-in-a-dress comedy character is abstractly, academically problematic. The sad reality is, enough people are going to read our receive it in a problematic way (because the subtle nuance you're talking in is entirely lost on much of the cishet world) that what odinsdream says it's true - it actively creates danger for trans women with the views it engenders and reinforces.
posted by Dysk at 7:34 PM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I wanted to be outraged by the humorlessness of the bookstore owners, but after reading their reasonable blog post about the behavior of the Portlandia crew, I found myself agreeing with them.
posted by mecran01 at 7:50 PM on September 30, 2016
posted by mecran01 at 7:50 PM on September 30, 2016
I live in Seattle but my sister lives in Portland in Carrie's area of the city. I've seen her multiple times and I only visit about once every two months. My sister sees her all the time.
posted by k8t at 9:43 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by k8t at 9:43 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Furthermore, it seems like they slapping the "Portland" label on trends that weren't necessarily created or based here but which were just generic trends amongst millennials.
Portlandia's humor works for me, possibly because it portrays these millennial concerns and lets me laugh at my own insecurities. Every time I see one of the skits of YouTube, I go thinking, This is so metaphorically true of my own social experiences and personal anxieties and reactions. Carrie's bookstore character and how she treats other people—that's a situation that resonates, in that she gets to be a misanthropic jerk, socially transgressive, etc., whereas in real life, it's tempting but clearly obviously not the best, "productive" choice of behavior for the given conflict. For what it's worth, the depiction of the situations are rather empathic to some of millennials' perceived problems, and moreover the solutions/behaviors of obstinate stubbornness, etc., are a skewering some of my own internal frustrations and giving some measure of lightness to that.
The controversy is important and I think there's merit in developing an argument that the show is unfairly exploiting Portland's identity, etc. It's just that on the other hand, the humor that I found in the show was never in making fun of Portland and its people—understandably a concern of actual Portlanders, in the risk of an Othering process and appropriation of a cultural commons—it much more in how it resonated on a personal level, seeing in these skits the well-intentioned pre-leftist behaviors and actions of the characters who are otherwise nothing like me or my social milieu: that was my reaction to the show as someone not white, nor straight, without social connections that resemble theirs.
Comedians have a tough job in striking the right balance, and I hope they find better ways because I for one saw some good things in the message of the show.
Sorry, talking seriously about humor is hard…
posted by polymodus at 10:14 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Portlandia's humor works for me, possibly because it portrays these millennial concerns and lets me laugh at my own insecurities. Every time I see one of the skits of YouTube, I go thinking, This is so metaphorically true of my own social experiences and personal anxieties and reactions. Carrie's bookstore character and how she treats other people—that's a situation that resonates, in that she gets to be a misanthropic jerk, socially transgressive, etc., whereas in real life, it's tempting but clearly obviously not the best, "productive" choice of behavior for the given conflict. For what it's worth, the depiction of the situations are rather empathic to some of millennials' perceived problems, and moreover the solutions/behaviors of obstinate stubbornness, etc., are a skewering some of my own internal frustrations and giving some measure of lightness to that.
The controversy is important and I think there's merit in developing an argument that the show is unfairly exploiting Portland's identity, etc. It's just that on the other hand, the humor that I found in the show was never in making fun of Portland and its people—understandably a concern of actual Portlanders, in the risk of an Othering process and appropriation of a cultural commons—it much more in how it resonated on a personal level, seeing in these skits the well-intentioned pre-leftist behaviors and actions of the characters who are otherwise nothing like me or my social milieu: that was my reaction to the show as someone not white, nor straight, without social connections that resemble theirs.
Comedians have a tough job in striking the right balance, and I hope they find better ways because I for one saw some good things in the message of the show.
Sorry, talking seriously about humor is hard…
posted by polymodus at 10:14 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
>I'd love to learn more about why a man wearing a dress and a wig to play a female character reads as transphobic
cf. Blackface
posted by fredludd at 2:19 AM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
cf. Blackface
posted by fredludd at 2:19 AM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't really feel so great about a using term that specifically applies to racism as a comparison label for transmisogyny. Mainly because trans women exist of all races, in all cultures, and using a term that describes western white supremacy over black people as a comparison label seems to kind of erase all trans POC (not just black trans women) from the discussion.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:50 AM on October 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:50 AM on October 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
I was never bothered by the Candace character and in fact I think Fred inhabits her so well that I totally forget she's played by a man. It strikes me in the same vein as Monty Python and kids in the hall.
But Nina and Lance squick me out so bad I have no idea why. His voice?
posted by St. Peepsburg at 12:07 AM on October 3, 2016
But Nina and Lance squick me out so bad I have no idea why. His voice?
posted by St. Peepsburg at 12:07 AM on October 3, 2016
Yeah, his voice is awful. Especially saying "cacow" constantly.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:13 PM on October 3, 2016
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:13 PM on October 3, 2016
"I cashiered and bagged his groceries when I was working at a grocery store once. He was unnecessarily condescending to me in a weird backwards manner when I was trying to give him something for free since I had mistakenly forgotten to ring it up and we had closed 10 minutes prior (he came in to shop in the last 10 minutes of being open). "
Bob Odenkirk returned his cart at Trader Joe's.
"If a cheesy (but wonderful) supernatural drama like Grimm gets that Portland is not 100% white, why can't Portlandia?"
because Grimm is an explicit fantasy
POC does not = Black. You've got some math to do and I'll leave you to it."
Arminsen's mom is Venezuelan and his dad is biracial — German and Japanese. If you're gonna ding Portlandia for not having people of color on it, it really does imply that you're not counting Armisen as multi-racial. Otherwise, at least half the skits have a non-white actor in them.
posted by klangklangston at 9:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
Bob Odenkirk returned his cart at Trader Joe's.
"If a cheesy (but wonderful) supernatural drama like Grimm gets that Portland is not 100% white, why can't Portlandia?"
because Grimm is an explicit fantasy
POC does not = Black. You've got some math to do and I'll leave you to it."
Arminsen's mom is Venezuelan and his dad is biracial — German and Japanese. If you're gonna ding Portlandia for not having people of color on it, it really does imply that you're not counting Armisen as multi-racial. Otherwise, at least half the skits have a non-white actor in them.
posted by klangklangston at 9:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you're gonna ding Portlandia for not having people of color on it, it really does imply that you're not counting Armisen as multi-racial.
A difficulty of evaluating whether or not something contains POC is that it often requires a critic to evaluate (“devolves into a critic evaluating”?) based on skin tone.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
A difficulty of evaluating whether or not something contains POC is that it often requires a critic to evaluate (“devolves into a critic evaluating”?) based on skin tone.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
More importantly, I think it's still fair to ask why there is, for instance so little black representation in the background and supporting casts, even if the main cast includes a non-black POC.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:29 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tobascodagama at 10:29 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
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posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 2:25 PM on September 29, 2016 [47 favorites]