Send in your seconds, see if they can set the record straight
October 4, 2016 5:25 PM   Subscribe

With 35 days to go until the election, Tim Kaine and Mike Pence square off in the vice presidential debate at Longwood University in Farmville, Virginia at 9:00 PM Eastern Time. Print out your Bingo cards and tune into any major network or listen on NPR. Alternately, watch on one of YouTube's channels (NBC, PBS, Fox News, the Washington Post). Twitter will stream Bloomberg. Facebook has ABC and PBS. C-SPAN has its own feed. You can even watch in virtual reality (Gear, Rift, or Vive) via AltspaceVR.

Elaine Quijano of CBS News will be the debate’s sole moderator. The next debate between Trump and Clinton is Sunday, October 9, at 9:00 PM (Eastern.)

If you haven't been following the election threads closely, there's a wiki page that will catch you up on the in-jokes that have developed over time. If you need voter information, lampshade posted a collection of links.

Per mod request, try not to post reactions without context. Remember that people will be trying to make sense of this thread days (or years) from now. If you need to post "OMG!" in real time, use our Chat. (If the web interface isn't working for you, frimble has instructions for other ways to connect.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker (4021 comments total) 87 users marked this as a favorite
 
Keep an eye on Kaine's hands in the opening seconds for the tip-off whether he will be on the offensive tonight: he's Minnesota-born, and just might have put on the foil backstage.
posted by wenestvedt at 5:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Prediction: Pence slams Kaine's modest tax increases for the skyrocketing unemployment rate under his tenure, conveniently failing to mention that Kaine took office in 2006 and left in 2010. Not that any global economic catastrophe happened at the time or anything.
posted by Rhaomi at 5:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Whoa. Trump is going to live tweet this thing? There is going to be a lot to pay attention to!
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 5:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Nice work on the title.
posted by drezdn at 5:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [35 favorites]


We should include links to the songs the titles reference in the body of the post. 10 Duel Commandments from Hamilton.
posted by fomhar at 5:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Trump with the Tweeting. Dude! Let your #2 have his evening in the spotlight!
posted by notyou at 5:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Whoa. Trump is going to live tweet this thing?

Pence: "Can't I have just one thing to myself, Trump? Just one thing? Sorry, I mean Mr. Trump." [Fake]
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


National treasure Chuck Tingle (previously, previouslier, previousliest) will also be livetweeting the event, as he did the presidential debate last week.
posted by golwengaud at 5:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh, yeah. Trump's Twitter should be amusing.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:32 PM on October 4, 2016


Can't believe I'm seeing this without having to read 600 comments first.
Too bad I'm going to go to bed soon.
posted by MtDewd at 5:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Guys. Guys. Today a film maker contacted my husband about a documentary he is making about Roger Ailes and the media. Mr. Freedom thought he was contacted because he is the theatre professor at the local university and the guy wanted some actors to do dramatizations, but turns out that the wonderful century-house we bought in April was the childhood home of Ailes.

I immediately bought two Clinton-Kaine yard signs, because fuck that. Hopefully they will get here in time for them to be proudly displayed in our yard when the film crew shows up to interview us.
posted by chainsofreedom at 5:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [232 favorites]


Keep an eye out for Mike Pence's top moments discussing the Economy and Highlighting Hillary’s scandals.
posted by lantius at 5:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]




Trump with the Tweeting. Dude! Let your #2 have his evening in the spotlight!

Oh Trump's tweets are all about giving his #2 the spotlight.
posted by nathan_teske at 5:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [55 favorites]


I suspect it will be iPhone tweets all night, with vaguely Trumpy syntax reinforcing whatever talking point Pence just used.
posted by nicepersonality at 5:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


So is this iOS Trump who is livetweeting or are we getting the real deal Android?
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]




Guys, I'm glad we are all here for this.
posted by mrzarquon at 5:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]




I think, like the first debate, this is something I'll spot-check via the blue and Twitter rather than watching live.

There's basically no chance Kaine or Pence will say or do anything to sway my vote away from Clinton, so I really don't need the stress. But I'm very glad you're all here.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:35 PM on October 4, 2016


There's a twitterbot built by Gawker that only posts the Android tweets.
posted by holgate at 5:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Well, I'm not giving Twitter the traffic, at least not until I learn whether it's going to be bought out by Google, Disney or Salesforce.com.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I will be very interested to hear both of their positions on Rosie O'Donnell.
posted by mazola at 5:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


There's probably fair odds on Trump trying to fire Pence over Twitter if Kaine starts crushing him.
posted by jason_steakums at 5:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


RNC Declares Mike Pence Winner Of VP Debate Before It Even Starts

His strong stance on TBD swung it.
posted by Artw at 5:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [24 favorites]


You know how sometimes you don't want to/just aren't in the mood to perform oral on your partner and so you have to really, really talk yourself into it? That's kinda how I feel about this debate.

I live in Indiana so I'm used to Pence's bs but, dammit America. GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 5:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


There's a twitterbot built by Gawker that only posts the Android tweets.

I dunno how you top that, zeitgeist of Election 2016-wise, but I'm sure something will come up in the next month.

Several somethings, probably.
posted by notyou at 5:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Keep an eye out for Mike Pence's top moments discussing the Economy and Highlighting Hillary’s scandals.

I thought telling your opponent your strategy was a bad thing?
posted by mikelieman at 5:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Has anybody actually asked Trump about the iPhone vs Android tweets? I would really love to hear him talk around that story. (Not that candidates are expected to be the only ones on their twitter handle, but it just seems like this is an open secret that he's never admitted to.)
posted by instamatic at 5:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am disappointed in you, Metafilter, not having a debate thread up until over an hour after the GOP declared themselves the winner.
posted by ckape at 5:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [45 favorites]


There's a twitterbot built by Gawker that only posts the Android tweets.

Wow, so assuming this hasn't fallen apart somehow and they haven't wised up to this obvious tell, it looks like we're in for an interesting night of unfiltered livetweeting.
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:39 PM on October 4, 2016


Whoa. Trump is going to live tweet this thing? There is going to be a lot to pay attention to!

His whole campaign is so odd. And yet when Trump loses big time in November he'll be whining and complaining that it's a "media conspiracy." I have a friend who's a Trump supporter, and another who's generally a libertarian, and, despite being highly educated, they just complain and complain and complain some more about "the media" ("Trump did nothing illegal by not paying any personal taxes," etc etc).

Trump is a fucking moron. But we need to "understand why people are voting for him."

Bah.
posted by My Dad at 5:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Predictions
1- Tim Kaine may bring back his sarcastic Trump impersonation. (Low)
2- At least one broken microphone related zinger from Kaine (100%)
3- Mike Pence will respond to any question about Donald Trump's statements by suggesting that Hillary calling people deplorables and basement dwellers is a worse.(100%)
posted by humanfont at 5:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]




It's quite simple, as Trump said in is victory speech people voted for him because lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit.
posted by Artw at 5:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [51 favorites]


("Trump did nothing illegal by not paying any personal taxes," etc etc).

My standard reply is, "He has to prove that, seeing as he's already been busted for illegal donations from the Foundation" and "How did he get paid a half million from the casino company, yet only claim "salary, wages, and tips" of $6,108?
posted by mikelieman at 5:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Apparently Donald himself will be tweeting, but he will have four babysitters (including two Steves!) as he does so.
posted by nicepersonality at 5:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump is a fucking moron. But we need to "understand why people are voting for him."
Just a guess, but maybe because they are even bigger fucking morons?
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [24 favorites]


(huffs carburetor cleaner in preparation)
posted by boo_radley at 5:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


There are two boring old white guys in grey suits and red ties on stage droning on and on right now. Did the debate start while I wasn't looking?
posted by Justinian at 5:43 PM on October 4, 2016


Apparently Donald himself will be tweeting, but he will have four babysitters (including two Steves!) as he does so.

Double your Steve, double your Steve
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


huffs carburetor cleaner

I think you meant "hurf durf carburetor cleaner."

/mefi
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Hit Mike for being a gutless coward for signing RFRA behind closed doors with a room full of homophobes and religious fanatics. A man should be unashamed to stand in the full light of day and declare his bigotry proudly.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Skipping this one I think. Must remember to ask for Nov. 9th off though.
posted by vrakatar at 5:47 PM on October 4, 2016


Apparently Donald himself will be tweeting, but he will have four babysitters (including two Steves!) as he does so.

Two Steves and no campaign managers, whatever that means.
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:49 PM on October 4, 2016


We should include links to the songs the titles reference in the body of the post. 10 Duel Commandments from Hamilton.

The link should be to the genius page, surely.

[Pence]
Can we agree debates are dumb and immature?

[Kaine]
Sure
But your man has to answer for his words, sir.

[Pence]
With the facts? We both know that’s absurd, sir.

[Kaine]
Hang on, how many men will die because Trump is inexperienced and ruinous?

[Pence]
Okay, so we’re doin’ this

posted by anastasiav at 5:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [72 favorites]


Sad! @realdonaldtrump wants to be President, can't be trusted to tweet.
posted by humanfont at 5:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


After we've toasted Mitheral's dad, charge your glasses again and drink with me, to Vox Dei! For raising Chuck Tingle from an obscure author of niche SF erotica to force to be reckoned with and national treasure!
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


I have some cookie dough ice cream and am prepared for anything.
posted by winna at 5:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


My fantasy opening line for Kaine: "Is your microphone okay, Governor Pence? Everything working good over there?"
posted by uosuaq at 5:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


> "Two Steves and no campaign managers, whatever that means."

It means Beck's out of ideas, is what that means.
posted by boo_radley at 5:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Tim Kaine is an anagram for Anti-Mike.

Just saying.
posted by Talez at 5:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [81 favorites]


General election threadery:

The most recent With Her podcast has Bill Clinton as a guest and it's a real doozy. I started crying on the bus.

I just read the article: Barack Obama on Five Days that Shaped a Presidency that was linked in the last thread. Among other things he mentions Rush fucking Limbaugh and it saddens me immensely that he even registers on the President's radar. Like that fucking unelected blowhard has about as much influence as a sitting congressman.

biggest takeaway is as always that I'm so proud and glad that we elected this guy
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 5:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


hahaha OF COURSE: @shanegoldmacher: Many people will Google for more info on Mike Pence tonight. But they won't find a bio page on Trump's website. Because there isn't one.
posted by lalex at 5:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


My fantasy opening line for Kaine: "Is your microphone okay, Governor Pence? Everything working good over there?"

"I just want to make sure you're very happy."
posted by contraption at 5:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Popcorn's a poppin'. Scotch is on deck. Let's do this.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


That was a funny sneeze.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Someone in the deathly stillness of C-SPAN's live feed just sneezed, triggering a slow wave of nervous laughter.

JUST AS THE PROPHECY HAD FORESEEN
posted by cortex at 5:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [25 favorites]


CSPANs pre-debate coverage can be so dry. Fwiw, debate moderator was introduced, and she gave the audience final instructions like turn off cellphones and no cheering.
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:00 PM on October 4, 2016


Rupert from Survivor also debated Mike Pence.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:01 PM on October 4, 2016


Enter the Daderdome! Mad Dad vs Glad Dad!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Mac Users: If you're running macOS Sierra you can watch any of the YouTube debate streams using the Picture-in-Picture feature in Safari. Right click the YouTube video to get YouTube's custom context menu. Then right click on the video again to get Safari's context menu and select "Enter Picture-in-Picture". Now you can watch the debate in an adjustable popout window while you participate in the thread without having to switch tabs or windows.
posted by guiseroom at 6:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I love C-SPAN.org's minimalist feed. No need for someone to fill up the dead-air.
posted by mikelieman at 6:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


CSPANs pre-debate coverage can be so dry. Fwiw, debate moderator was introduced, and she gave the audience final instructions like turn off cellphones and no cheering.

This is precisely why I love C-SPAN.
posted by Shmuel510 at 6:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


I got a shot of rye and a can of cider all ready for this. And reruns of Elementary on the TV because there's no way I'm strong enough to watch this except by the words you all type here.
posted by rtha at 6:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Mad Dad vs Glad Dad!

Dad vs. Coach.
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I thought the debate had started while I was watching the flash and the coverage was just that boring. Guess not.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:02 PM on October 4, 2016


OK maybe just a little but there is not enough booze in the house for this and SHIELD is on later. Drunk History too. And I haven't even rinsed off today.
posted by vrakatar at 6:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


popcorn's a poppin' and the power's down / I'd like to try somethin' but I'm so far from town / the sun keeps shinin' and the north wind keeps pickin' up speed / gonna forget about myself for a while, go out and see what others need
posted by uosuaq at 6:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


A shot? I picked up a fresh jug of Wild Turkey 101.
posted by mikelieman at 6:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


There's probably fair odds on Trump trying to fire Pence over Twitter if Kaine starts crushing him.

I would die and go to heaven if he started calling him "Brainless Mike" or some such in his tweets.
posted by duffell at 6:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I gave an involuntary whimper when I saw that there was another election thread.

Probably best not too think too deeply on that.
posted by Orange Pamplemousse at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


only 35 years to go
posted by you're a kitty! at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [31 favorites]


Pence looks like a dad, but the kind of dad who disowned a gay kid and didn't list him as a survivor in his grandmother's obituary
posted by Countess Elena at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [70 favorites]


Kick some ass Timmy!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Once again, tie colors are reversed from party affiliations.
posted by zachlipton at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm at a viewing event with a friend and a tequila mule. Fingers crossed.
posted by Superplin at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016


@realDonaldTrump
Here we go - Enjoy!


Oooh sent from Android.
posted by sporkwort at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hopefully they control the audience better this time- the moderator just said the crowd was "enthusiastic".
posted by winna at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016


How to the titles work? Does Senator outrank Governor, thus Senator Kaine? Or is it the most recent position held?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


NBC coverage threw that accidental Pence win screen shot up and said "and the GOP has already named Pence the winner of this debate, no surprise there."
posted by phunniemee at 6:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Opening with a callout to Lloyd Bentsen...
posted by mikelieman at 6:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Reporting in from toddler bedtime: current mood: A frog. She is ribbiting and will not consider slumber. Updates appreciated.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [47 favorites]


The first question is "what equips you to be president if the unexpected happened".
posted by winna at 6:06 PM on October 4, 2016


What is Tim's lapel pin?
posted by sweetmarie at 6:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


DAD! ANSWER THE GOD DAMN QUESTION! TELL US ABOUT YOU!
posted by Talez at 6:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Look at the camera, Tim.
posted by robstercraw at 6:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why is Kaine looking off center in the split screen? It's off putting
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:07 PM on October 4, 2016


How to the titles work? Does Senator outrank Governor, thus Senator Kaine? Or is it the most recent position held?

I believe proper form is current title if one is held, else the highest previous title.
posted by jammer at 6:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Come on Kaine talk about yooooooooou.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:07 PM on October 4, 2016


It's definitely Trump on the twitters and not his campaign.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:07 PM on October 4, 2016


He's looking at the moderator, T.D. Strange.
posted by ChrisR at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016


I'm in a hotel room without a minibar. What do I do????
posted by Westringia F. at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence has this oddly pained look about his face. I don't mean in this moment, I mean in general. I think I've seen alt-right losers make this comparison before: he looks like the bodyguard from Jonny Quest crossed with a raisin.
posted by constantinescharity at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I think Tim's lapel pin is one of his son's military deployment pins.
posted by humanfont at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016


PENCE: It's great to be here -
ME: SNOOZE ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzz
posted by melissasaurus at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wow, Pence doesn't move his face much. He's like one of those puppets where the mouth is a filmed person's mouth.
posted by blnkfrnk at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Pence looks like the pissed off general/police captain from an 80's action film.

"You're out of control, McBain! You think the rules don't apply to you!"
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


FOURTH WALL DOWN. MAN THE BARRICADES.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


What is Tim's lapel pin?

I believe it's a Blue Star flag.
posted by phunniemee at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence seems really nervous.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine didn't answer the question at all in any respect.
posted by winna at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Do they have the split screens reversed?
posted by mikelieman at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


This debate is too normal. It's like bizarro world compared to the last one. This is the year normal is bizarre.
posted by dis_integration at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


The words in the background are distracting.
posted by clavdivs at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2016


They sound exactly the same right now.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well, Pence gets the name of the host wrong right off the bat. It's Longwood University, not Norwood.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


A war on coal? Yes, that's what I think of for the last 7.5 years . . .
posted by jeremias at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence has low energy.
posted by homunculus at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence is talking doom and gloom and he sounds about as mournful as a man at his dad's funeral when he knows there's no money in the will.
posted by winna at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Kaine: This is great!

Pence: Everything is scary and sucks.
posted by vverse23 at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Pence seems sedate and disturbingly sane. It's all that radio experience.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence: "I never thought I'd have a chance to be governor...let alone sitting a table like this"

That's because it's a weird-ass table for three people to sit awkwardly without looking at each other.
posted by zachlipton at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


> The words in the background are distracting

Especially the "evils" over Kaine's shoulder.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016


I've been calling him Mike Pinch, since his expression always looks like someone is giving him a charley horse under the table.
posted by mochapickle at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Tim Kaine taking pages of notes already!
posted by sweetmarie at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016


The words in the background are distracting.

They're a spell that will vanquish Trump, if only we can read them all.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Does anyone have any idea what this Trump tweet is referring to? "@megynkelly- I am in Nevada. Sorry to inform you Kellyanne is in the audience. Better luck next time."
posted by lalex at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


War on coal? Did Pence just say that?
posted by Yowser at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence has low energy.

My money's on Botox. Lots and lots of it.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Really? Emails and Clinton foundation? First non-introductory question?
posted by Justinian at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Pence's last communication from the campaign: "Pence! Be humble! Be the humblest humble that ever humbled! BUT NOT MORE HUMBLE THAN ME!!"

Pence: "Aw, shucks? On it?"
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016


There are less than 30k coal jobs in Pennsylvania, and no significant amount in any other swing state.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine seems to be taking copious notes.
posted by Rhomboid at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2016


Went out for smoke break so I'm a few minutes behind this is weird.
posted by vrakatar at 6:11 PM on October 4, 2016


If Pence wants to boast about his immigrant father, I look forward to him squirming to explain his attempts to keep immigrants out of his state.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Let's remember folks, Pence is a really solid politician which is why he won all those votes and collected all those donations during the primaries.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


They just flipped the split screen. Way to go Technical Director!
posted by mikelieman at 6:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Why do so many people distrust Hillary Clinton? Is it emails and the Clinton Foundation?"
posted by winna at 6:11 PM on October 4, 2016


Norwood University?
posted by klangklangston at 6:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


The number 4 google image search result I get for "service star pin" is Tim Kaine.
posted by ckape at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


For some reason Pence is reminding me of Odo from DS9.

(Except I'd much rather elect Odo as VP)

another DS9 reference, relevant to this election season
posted by k8bot at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine seems to be taking copious notes.

All work and no play makes Tim a dull boy...
posted by mikelieman at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think Tim's lapel pin is one of his son's military deployment pins.

Correct, and the GOP has already had to apologize for mocking him for wearing it.
posted by peeedro at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]



"Why do so many people distrust Hillary Clinton? Is it emails and the Clinton Foundation?"


Such a dumb question
posted by zutalors! at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"You have said that Donald Trump is thoughtful, considerate, and steady..."

He has? We're gonna need a drug test.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine is on the attack, talking about how Trump is so terrible. Does not address the question.

Moderator hammers Pence on Trump being erratic.
posted by winna at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016


whoa mike pence just heard about that "rapists and murderers" thing not sure he believes it
posted by klangklangston at 6:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Dictate, evil, disposed"
Kaines getting all the good background material.
posted by clavdivs at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016


Look out you guys! "The Middle East is literally spinning out of control!"
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Thank you for your question ,let me ignore it and tell you why Hillary Clinton is awful."
posted by Justinian at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Gentlemen, why do so many people dislike your party's candidate?"

"PIVOT PIVOT WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER CANDIDATE"
posted by 23skidoo at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016



"Why do so many people distrust Hillary Clinton? Is it emails and the Clinton Foundation?"

Such a dumb question


IS IT VAMPIRES
posted by klangklangston at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


NO DAD! DAD! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
posted by Talez at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh snap, Kaine hitting back on Russia and Putin.
posted by Rhomboid at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence: I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I
posted by leotrotsky at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016


> Pence is talking doom and gloom and he sounds about as mournful as a man at his dad's funeral woman at a fetus's funeral when he knows there's no money in the will.
posted by homunculus at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Strictly speaking, the entire earth is spinning beyond our control.
posted by ckape at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Kaine interrupting first...
posted by Sublimity at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016


LET US NOW PIVOT TO THE REAL CANDIDATES

LET THE PROXY DEBATE COMMENCE

*GONG SOUND FOLLOWED BY STAR TREK FIGHT MUSIC AT HALF SPEED*
posted by Panjandrum at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


OH SHIT PENCE IS AGAINST INSULTS MUST BE AWKWARD
posted by klangklangston at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Why are you interrupting him? Please stop ;_;

STOP TRYING TO SNIPE!
posted by Talez at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"We'll get to Russia in just a moment. We do have that coming up here."

OH SNAP
posted by My Dad at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016


Don't interrupt him, Kaine! That is not a good look.
posted by lydhre at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Pence: the world is LITERALLY spinning out of control. Mass dizziness does explain a lot.
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


OH YES, PLEASE TALK ABOUT FOUNDATIONS!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sarcastic Kaine is the best Kaine
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's official, Mike Pence is Frozen Caveman Lawyer.

"I'm a simple man who one day dreams of occupying the White House" [fake]
posted by Yowser at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine needs to settle down.
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Kaine looks like he's on the Kremlin wall jeering the rocket trucks.
posted by clavdivs at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"You are Donald Trump's apprentice."

Thanks Dad!
posted by HumuloneRanger at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Such a dumb question

For posterity: I do not do fake quotes and when quoting I am not necessarily endorsing the question/comment being reported.
posted by winna at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oooh! OBL! Knife Knife Knife!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


QUIJANO: Pence, why do 65% of Americans think Trump doesn't have have the temperament for the job?
PENCE: The Clinton-Kaine campaign is about insults. People don't think Hillary is trustworthy.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Kaine is raring to go.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wow I'm afraid Pence is the more sane sounding candidate with Trump's talking points/demagoguery we've been fearing...
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 6:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Apparently it's supposed to be a discussion and interruptions are part of the format?
posted by klarck at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Kaine needs to settle down.

He is being a bit rude.
posted by Flashman at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence is coming off as way more reasonable which is horrifying.
posted by winna at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Kaine's interruptions are not working and getting annoying. WTF.
posted by homunculus at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


This moderator didnt realize what she was in for with all of this crosstalk
posted by sweetmarie at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016


Not sure about Kaine's interruption strategy. But note that Pence tried to answer the "why don't people trust Donald Trump" question with "Here's why people don't trust Hillary Clinton" which WTF.
posted by dnash at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


This "discussion format" is a mess. I can't follow either of them.
posted by mochapickle at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


This is going to be a very fighty 90 minutes.
posted by Rhomboid at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Gentlemen, let's move on to ignoring the questions about the economy.
posted by cortex at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [53 favorites]


Pence is coming off much better at this point, sorry to say.
posted by Rumple at 6:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pitiful Pence has zero charisma! How did this guy make it this far? Sad!
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Looks like Trump can't do anything but retweet some ass-kissing from his fans. Surely he has policy rebuttals to make?
posted by Countess Elena at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016



Such a dumb question

For posterity: I do not do fake quotes and when quoting I am not necessarily endorsing the question/comment being reported


wow, ok. for the record: I was responding to the thing I also heard and thought that question was dumb and did not claim or say you made up anything or agreed with anything.
posted by zutalors! at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016


what's with the creepy horn-rim glasses dude who is lurking in the shadows just beyond the moderator's right elbow
is it evil dad
is evil dad in the daderdome
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


:hides under desk:
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016


Oh my god, I am cringing. The cross-talking and interruption and "no, Mom said it's my turn!" are very uncomfortable to watch.
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


Pence tried to answer the "why don't people trust Donald Trump" question with "Here's why people don't trust Hillary Clinton" which WTF.

It sounded like Kane did the same thing when asked about Hillary.
posted by upplepop at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"War on coal" for the second time
posted by Sublimity at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016


Tax increases cause unemployment! CALLED IT.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


The state of Indiana has no services. ;.; that's why is budget is balanced.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yes, people are struggling much more now that they have health insurance. :eye roll:
posted by jet_pack_in_a_can at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016


The moderator (Elaine Quijano) is worse off than Lester Holt - she's getting talked over relentlessly.
posted by winna at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is going to be a very fighty 90 minutes.

"Two Men Enter - One man leaves"
posted by mikelieman at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Need to cut Pence's mike.
posted by klangklangston at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine needs to back off the Trump attacks honestly, Pence is his own horrible monster and their policies should give him plenty of room to nail Pence to the wall on substance. Trump attacks should be the icing here, not the whole meal.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


"War on coal" count: 3
posted by Sublimity at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


So, noticed Pence is really avoiding talking about Trump
posted by annsunny at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Two red faced white dudes shouting at each other, yay
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Josh Marshall says "9:10 PM: I laugh at Trump mic truthers. But Pence's mic actually sounds a bit off, echoey."

I heard it too. It sounds like Pence was talking so quietly that his mic was on the edge of feeding back.
posted by zachlipton at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016


Dude: stop trying make "War on Coal" happen.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence is really good at the whole, "I guess I'm just... not MAD, Kaine, just disappointed" quietness thing.
posted by Greg Nog at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I think Pence is trying to ride that War on Coal train all the way to Pennsylvania.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think Kaine may be on brow roids
posted by klangklangston at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I think Kaine doesn't care about winning this. He cares about getting under Trump's skin. He's not thinking about the Veep debate, he's thinking about the next Presidential debate.
posted by asteria at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [48 favorites]


Pence: War on War on Coal!
posted by Talez at 6:19 PM on October 4, 2016


wow, ok. for the record: I was responding to the thing I also heard and thought that question was dumb and did not claim or say you made up anything or agreed with anything.

I didn't think you did? I was just making sure that it was clear that if I stick it in quotes it's what I heard, that's all.
posted by winna at 6:19 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine is Clinton's Interruption Translator.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [22 favorites]


Pence's job is to be wooden. The more boring he sounds, the more safe his ticket looks and the better for the Trump campaign.

Agree that Kaine needs to go after Pence, not Trump. Nobody will be shocked by anything anyone says about Trump, but they don't know Pence, who is plenty horrifying in his own right, and in a more ideologically consistent way.
posted by duffell at 6:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Oh, he was so proud of the "You're hired President"/"YOu're fired President"
posted by Sublimity at 6:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Pence coming off way more calm than Kaine - he's actually a professional politician, so when Trump campaign advisers were like "SO BASICALLY: All you have to do is not yell and we will look good", he is able to actually follow the strategy unlike Giant Orange Demon Child-Man.
posted by windbox at 6:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


"Do you want a 'you're hired' President in Hillary Clinton, or a 'you're fired' candidate in Donald Trump?"

Why do they use these cheesy scripted lines? They're...not good.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


From Pennsylvania, still think Pence's "War on Coal" is crap.
posted by jet_pack_in_a_can at 6:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


We're fighting a war on coal in Centralia, PA right now.
posted by cmfletcher at 6:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [26 favorites]


So, noticed Pence is really avoiding talking about Trump

I was actually thinking that a risky gambit for Kaine to take would be to not mention Trump at all during the debate, something that could potentially drive Trump crazy.
posted by drezdn at 6:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think Kaine doesn't care about winning this. He cares about getting under Trump's skin.

You think Trump is watching this, or even cares about the outcome?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:20 PM on October 4, 2016


Tim calmed down let Mike have his say, and is rolling "Ironworking and welding..."
posted by mikelieman at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2016


C'mon, everybody in a state that touches Indiana knows that calling it a "state that works" is delusional.
posted by klangklangston at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [33 favorites]


gotta say i'm pretty disappointed with kaine so far.
posted by modernnomad at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine's righteous indignation comes across as a bit manic, sadly.

Pence benefits from not having principles, or a soul.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Kaine needs to own being a good running mate for Clinton
posted by klangklangston at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence is right about the pre-done lines. Theyr'e dumb. Stop using them.
posted by Justinian at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I think Kaine is doing great and is on message, no idea what the manic stuff is about, really.
posted by zutalors! at 6:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


That audible scoff and sad head shake from Pence seems far worse to me than Gore's sighs sixteen years ago.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Pence benefits from not having principles, or a soul."

Pence is a talk radio star and doing a talk radio star turn.
posted by klangklangston at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]




Ooh she's bringing up the tax returns!
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


You think Trump is watching this, or even cares about the outcome?

He's live tweeting it.
posted by dis_integration at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


As someone who has to look at Indiana advertising in Illinois, Pence is way too proud of that "State that works" line. It's what, 3, 4 years old at this point?

Also agree that Pence's role to reign in Trump would be accomplished by way of putting Trump to sleep with his voice. (Maybe that's why Trump's awake at 3am?)
posted by Lykosidae at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016


But people catch on to cheesy sayings abs remember. Though, owch Pence dismissal.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016


You think Trump is watching this, or even cares about the outcome?

Yes. I think if people are talking about him on TV he's going to watch it.
posted by dilaudid at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence calling him out on "pre-done lines" like you're hired/ you're fired instead of answering about Trump not paying taxes
posted by sweetmarie at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016


OMG Tim calm down.
posted by charred husk at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence remarks that the Clinton/Kaine camp uses a lot of "pre-done" lines.
posted by winna at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016


"Honestly, you can roll out the numbers, but people know differently!"
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence isn't going to answer a single question tonight. Kaine needs to call him on it.
posted by cmfletcher at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


C'mon, everybody in a state that touches Indiana knows that calling it a "state that works" is delusional.

No need to attack the Hoosier state; it did nothing to you.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence calls Kaine out for using "predone lines" like you're hired/you're fired. And he's kinda right. Foo.
posted by mochapickle at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2016


MOD: Pence, do you think it's fair that Trump skipped out on taxes for many years?
PENCE: Lemme talk about the C/K plan for more taxes.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence accusing Kaine of spitting writtens kinda stinks of the whole "overprepared" garbage from the last debate.
posted by penduluum at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence said "Scranton" and Diamond Joe didn't appear. I wonder if the Biden Signal is down.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


"Senator Kaine you can roll out numbers and facts and reality all you want..."
posted by Talez at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


"You can roll out the numbers and the sunny side..."
posted by mikelieman at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


The interrupting is not a good look, just annoyed at everyone.
posted by dinty_moore at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


It did nothing for anyone that's the problem.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence, you've done nothing but host a radio show and run for public office. YOU ARE A CAREER PUBLIC SERVANT.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


TRUMP FACED SOME PRETTY TOUGH TIMES
rly Pence????
posted by k8bot at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, Kaine is off to a rough start. I have the feeling that he prepped to be more aggressive than he usually would be, and it's just not working. Pence is selling the Trump campaign very well so far. I was expecting better from Kaine.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Tim: "How do you know that?"
posted by mikelieman at 6:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Apparently interrupting women is the theme of the debates this year.
posted by dinty_moore at 6:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [25 favorites]



We're fighting a war on coal in Centralia, PA right now.


Yo, the coal is totes winning
posted by blnkfrnk at 6:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump is livetweeting this.

Lol. Does anyone know if it's customary for him to use little heart emojis when he talks about Pence?
posted by triggerfinger at 6:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


And then Pence throws out a "god bless you" on Kaine/taxes. Like the southern god bless you, meaning you are so naive. Still not answering the question, though.
posted by mochapickle at 6:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is there something about the podium on the left of the moderator that leads to obnoxious interruptions?
posted by Shmuel510 at 6:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"No need to attack the Hoosier state; it did nothing to you."

Grew up in Michigan; mom's family is all from Indiana.

It did plenty.
posted by klangklangston at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


This format is really not working for me,and I may just turn it off and catch up from you guys. I just can't handle the cross talk.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016


Mike Pence has no discernible face, just an abyss of pasty keratin.
posted by Burhanistan at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Every time Pence says something about Trump being a businessman, not a politician, I want Kaine to ask him, "You're a politician, Gov. Pence, do you think Donald Trump is more qualified to be president than you are?"
posted by Panjandrum at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


This is a bit train wrecky.
posted by xyzzy at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump hit hard times you say?
posted by bonje at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016


You think Trump is watching this, or even cares about the outcome?

Not only is he watching, he's live-tweeting it as he announced earlier.
posted by asteria at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016


(Okay, there isn't technically a podium, but you get my point.)
posted by Shmuel510 at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016


Quijano tries to force Pence to address the tax returns. Pence runs to talking about how Trump created jobs and makes billions.

Kaine says that if we pay our taxes and Trump thinks it's smart not to pay them, what does that make those of us who pay our taxes?
posted by winna at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


OH NO WE WANNA TALK ABOUT PREDONE LINES

SNIFF
posted by klangklangston at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I expected Kaine to be as interesting as an unenthusiastic handjob. I did not expect him to talk over Pence and look so fired up. I hope he settles down some.
posted by tryniti at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's weird to see a moderator, you know, actually moderating.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Seriously. The moderator needs to be able to pan the mics one way or the other.
posted by mikelieman at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hmm. Pence is better at this. Partly through obfuscation, careful omission, and outright lies, but he's coming across as smoother and more confident. I'm hoping Kaine starts warming up.
posted by figurant at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump's allegedly livetweeting this, but so far he's just been retweeting favorable reactions to Pence. No telling if he's actually watching the debate rather than just staring at his phone.
posted by painquale at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah Elaine! You tell them to stay in line and not talk over each over!
posted by Talez at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


PEOPLE IN FORT WAYNE KNOW DIFFERENT BECAUSE YOU'RE FUCKING THEM
posted by klangklangston at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Oh darn I just saw it's a retweet. I was SO HOPING that Trump had started using emojis!!
posted by triggerfinger at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016


This is difficult to watch. Difficult to watch Pence politic. Difficult to see Kaine get furious.
posted by Oyéah at 6:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I never would have guessed that it was the VP debate that I wouldn't be able to get through.
posted by diogenes at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


This format is a fucking disaster and I think the moderator just realized that.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


I take back what I said. Pence has killer, Trump-tier facial expressions. That's some great sturgeon face he just made.
posted by constantinescharity at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh thank god, the moderator told them to quiet down.

Oh jesus christ, the moderator just had to tell them to quiet down in the same tone of voice as my teacher mom, except her kids listen the first or second time.

Don't talk over the moderator, Kaine. I have no expectations for Pence.
posted by neonrev at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


The "pre-done" lines thing is a brilliant way to contrast Trump's strength (as his base sees it) that he's "real" and "a Washington outsider" to Hillary's perceived weakness, that she's "not natural, scripted, and a politician."
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence: "[Trump] is going to release his taxes."

WTF dipshit, have you paid any attention to your running mate at all? No he's not.
posted by dnash at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


This debate really needs a talking pillow for them to pass back and forth. Or a moderator to moderate.
posted by peeedro at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence thinks he's Reagan with his terribad "there they go again" line.
posted by dis_integration at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine should have responded to "There they go again" with "Talk about your pre-done lines."

Come on, think on your feet.
posted by Justinian at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


"has no discernible face."

Huh, it's the silver skull cap and blue tie. Red boxers and he's a bomb pop.
posted by clavdivs at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Good grief, Paine just said, "There you go again." How old is that call-back? Saint Reagan?
posted by wenestvedt at 6:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Mike, you can't say "this is what this campaign is really about" to every question. You sound like a....

...oh. Carry on!
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016


Or just put them in separate boxes and cut off their mics when it's not their turn to talk.
posted by dilaudid at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ohh Race Relations!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016


What I'm seeing is an animated, excited Kaine and a dull, robotic Pence. I get the idea that he is controlled but honestly he comes across as a low energy speaker without much passion.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I wish Kaine had hit back Donald creating jobs by pointing out he didn't actually pay for them.
posted by ckape at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


PENCE! You can't complain about pre-planned canned lines, then use one that is literally older than I am!
posted by Panjandrum at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yes Kaine! Make the evil replicant defend his deplorable record.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016


I already thought Clinton did well last debate, but this is really driving that point home.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Something about Pence makes me really, really, uncomfortable.
posted by Biblio at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Justinian, I think he tried to say something about that "there you go again" but he got steamrolled.

Quijano's getting irritated, I think.
posted by winna at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine is coming off as alarmingly combative. I am rethinking my decision to stay home in lieu of going to Best Bar In the World.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I tuned in a little late -- is this format going to be the whole 90 minutes?
posted by mochapickle at 6:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Tim, slow the fuck down! Pop a beta blocker or something!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Part of the problem is squeezing 9 segments into 90 minutes. Like holy shit. Nobody can really go into detail of anything.
posted by Talez at 6:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yah, but the part where Cthulhu tore through the desk ate their faces was pretty good, tho.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence is really fighting his resting scowl
posted by ckape at 6:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I love Tim Kaine but this is not his best performance.
posted by lalex at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


(And it's a shame, because I really like Elaine's questions. Set up like a more traditional debate, this session would be a lot more fruitful.)
posted by mochapickle at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


There should be time limits. This is a mess. It's making me feel incredibly stressed. This election is taking five years off my life in pure anxiety.
posted by prefpara at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


Pence's scowl at "community policing"... Did I imagine that? He already looks so checked out of what Kaine is saying.
posted by Lykosidae at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh God my election dread is setting in again
posted by mynameisluka at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kaine’s strategy is essentially to be a suicide-bomber to prevent this debate from making news. It’s awful to watch.
posted by gerryblog at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


What I'm seeing is an animated, excited Kaine and a dull, robotic Pence. I get the idea that he is controlled but honestly he comes across as a low energy speaker without much passion.

I'm seeing a calm and steady Pence versus a wound-up and combative Kaine. I don't like it, but that's how it's coming across.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Pence gave away the gave on entitlement reform, slashing Social Security is still the goal no matter what Trump says.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine just said we ask too much of police and then talked about how we need to make them responsible for engaging with the community. Both things are true, but he skipped the part about what we need them to stop doing so they can focus on that.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Cash money says if Kaine calls out Pence for being a pod person, Pence will rise to his feet and point and make that shrieking sound like Donald Sutherland at the end of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Kaine talks about the importance of community policing versus militarized models and hits Trump's advocacy of stop and frisk.
posted by winna at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't know this moderator. Is there any chance she'll start yelling at them if they don't shape up?
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I got a pun I don't know how to use

six pence none the richer

just putting it out there
posted by klangklangston at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


Pence's use of Botox has created an uncanny valley.
posted by humanfont at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


I don't think Kaine is combative, I think he's energetic. Pence is a litch.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I don't think Kaine's debate coach warned him that Pence might try to tell some fibs.
posted by klarck at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Gun control makes police safer, I wish more people would make this point. Cops HATE all the fucking guns on the street.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


My sharp pundit commentary: Pence is creeping me out with conservative robot grandpa face, but Kaine is also kind of coming off as kooky ranty argumentative uncle, and he needs to be playing warm goofy liberal dad.
posted by windbox at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"at the risk of agreeing with you"
posted by Sublimity at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine is a lot better when he's talking about himself and his accomplishments, not trying to be Clinton's cheerleader. I hope he keeps with that tack.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Guys I'm not sure what you're watching but you need to calm down. Kaine is doing *great* in the debate I'm watching, and Pence is just coming off as low energy. Sad.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Pence is so more polished and easier to understand.

Sigh.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Man, need to have a single mic on at a time.
posted by klangklangston at 6:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Kaine killing it on gun control with Virginia Tech stories, came off very empathetic. Followed by Pence listing minorities and stammering on how to talk about law and order
posted by sweetmarie at 6:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


@ RealDonaldJTrump: "@Susiesentinel: #pence is so much more likeable than Kaine

Pence comes across as a frozen mackerel.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I got a pun I don't know how to use
six pence none the richer
just putting it out there


Over on chat: Pence is such a lightweight you could have five more of him and still be none the richer.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [24 favorites]


Pence looks like a freaking vampire elder.

He says police officers are the best of us which just no.
posted by winna at 6:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump just retweeted some jamoke saying Kaine "looks like an evil crook out of the Batman movies". You know every time I think I'm done being surprised how adolescent he is -
posted by Countess Elena at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wow, Pence saying the charges of implicit systematic racism in police depts. has got to stop. Wow wow wow
posted by k8bot at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


The moderator has butchered or outright misrepresented every budget question so far
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence is denying institutional racism?!
posted by winna at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]



Guys I'm not sure what you're watching but you need to calm down. Kaine is doing *great* in the debate I'm watching, and Pence is just coming off as low energy. Sad.


I'm watching what you're watching!! I think Kaine is doing great. He's getting a lot of the talking points out that Clinton can't because people focus on her unfavorables and emails.

Also, Pence talked up not "rehearsing" and then trotted out Reagan's "there you go again."
posted by zutalors! at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yes, Governor Pence, there is implicit bias in everything. That's actually a thing.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


How is Dernald going to react if the general opinion following the debate is that the Republicans have the wrong candidate at the top of the ticket?
posted by DanSachs at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump (retweet): Kaine looks like an evil crook out of the Batman movies. [real]
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence sneakily trying to equate implicit bias with institutional racism. Do I need to Google the term for this guy?
posted by blurker at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


There was something in there about the economy. Pence tried to claim it's worse now than when Obama started. Like, huh? Obama started during the worst economic collapse since the Great Depression, he saved us from actually having another Great Depression, Wall Street is hitting record levels again - but somehow things are "worse" now?? And then Kaine cited some statistic to counter, and Pence went "oh, you can read off numbers..." - [headdesk.] So you can list off all the facts of what's actually happening, but it's all wrong somehow. UGH.
posted by dnash at 6:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence dumbstruck on the idea of widespread implicit bias. He say quit name calling police after tragedy
posted by sweetmarie at 6:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


klangklangston: six pence none the richer


Trump/Pence: none the winner, I hope.
posted by emelenjr at 6:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Wow, Pence saying the charges of implicit systematic racism in police depts. has got to stop. Wow wow wow

Don't you know? The Supreme Court said the justice system couldn't possibly contain systemic racism back in 1987!
posted by Talez at 6:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Chill y'all. Pence is dull af. Better if Aggro Kaine is what people are talking about after this.
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I am really really glad these two dudes are not running against each other at the top of the ticket
posted by Greg Nog at 6:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [49 favorites]


Why is the moderator letting Pence steamroll?
posted by leotrotsky at 6:35 PM on October 4, 2016


100% Mike Pence is running for President right now and not Trump's running mate.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


Mike Pence doesn't know what systemic bias actually is, which is cool.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:35 PM on October 4, 2016


Wow, after all that, the moderator's followup was actually on implicit bias
posted by klarck at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did Pence just actually do the I have a Black friend?
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Aggro Kaine: DAD IS MAD
posted by k8bot at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I dunno about puns, but DadFreedom persists in pretending that he hears the phrase "my pants" any time anyone says Mike Pence.

"Why does Donald Trump want my pants?"
"What are my pants doing in Florida?"

He always laughs at his own joke after saying it. It's driving my mom bananas.
posted by chainsofreedom at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [51 favorites]


HEY GANG, I DON'T THINK PENCE IS REALLY FRIENDS WITH SENATOR SCOTT.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [29 favorites]


Pence says (black) Senator Scott is a close friend. Kaine gives squint eyes and slight head shake.
posted by sweetmarie at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


"I am really really glad these two dudes are not running against each other at the top of the ticket"

Uh I am a traveler from the future and
posted by klangklangston at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


He probably likes his bias explicit.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


(deep breaths) Okay, I think Kaine is calming down a bit. This is helping.

At the very least it is allowing people to HEAR Pence dig himself a hole over the systemic racism thing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


ugh seriously pivoting to crime whenever anyone talks about black people is making me want to scream in all these debates
posted by zutalors! at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [40 favorites]


Trump (retweet): Kaine looks like an evil crook out of the Batman movies. [real]

Projection again, as Rudy did his Penguin imitation earlier today.
posted by drezdn at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]




This format is a mess.
posted by cmfletcher at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yes, pin that Trump to him!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Let me take your question about law enforcement as an opportunity to mention every gross thing Trump has every said!"
posted by Justinian at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


The thing that Pence is doing that is really working is he just doesn't shut up and he keeps talking softly on and on and it might be low energy but it's reading as reasonable.

It's not, it's horrifying, but it reads that way.
posted by winna at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


this format has always been this way?
posted by zutalors! at 6:37 PM on October 4, 2016


I wonder how many people are hate-tweeting Patrick Kane or Hunter Pence right now.
posted by SisterHavana at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine needs to focus on just repeating what Trump has said/done

The crosstalk/arguing/bickering is just bad
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think someone gave Kaine a signal to cut down on the interrupts. He's coming across way better now.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


"You just heard Senator Kaine reject stop-and-frisk, but I think.." WTF. It's rejected because it's UNCONSTITUTIONAL. It's the COURTS that rejected it, and rightly so.
posted by dnash at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Shorter Pence: "Boy, crime, I just don't know."
posted by HumuloneRanger at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [27 favorites]


Aw, dang, Kaine, let the moderator press Pence on the question about Scott. I mean, the stop and frisk thing is bullshit too but the rope was spooling out.
posted by cortex at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine's not doing so bad.
posted by angrybear at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think three times so far the moderator has said "but Governer Pence, the question was about X".

Not a great look for Pence if she keeps pressing.
posted by fomhar at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


I dunno, Trump's account isn't passing the Turing Test for me tonight. Just retweets, scheduled tweets, and non-interpretive statements.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I wish the Clinton campaign would explain implicit bias better, so that the "it's an African American officer" thing would die. Of course, that's from a fantasy world where white people aren't stupid.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


why doesn't this stage have a timeout corner?
posted by indubitable at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


The questions are coming way too fast for this to be a good debate. It's just quick soundbites of policy, kurffuffling and repeat.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Mic drop by Tim Kaine on the police and respect issue. I think he's starting to find his feet.
posted by humanfont at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Kaine: If you want to have a society of respect through law enforcement, you can't have someone at the top who insults minorities, women, POWs, etc.

Fantastic reponse. I hope that hit home.
posted by mochapickle at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [48 favorites]


30 minutes in, and Trump has already retweeted an account that references "white genocide" (@nycmia) --@danprimack
posted by zachlipton at 6:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm actually really hoping that all this talk of implicit bias will cause the media (do you hear me, media? I know some of you are reading) to talk more about what implicit bias is. Because it's actually a really eye-opening way to discuss this stuff, and I've heard it done in ways that don't put people on the defensive.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


MAKE THE POINT that THESE ARE DONALD TRUMP'S WORDS!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016


Okay, I think Kaine is calming down a bit. This is helping.

It's like someone had been coaching him to try and up their approval rating in the toxic masculinity demographic.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think the reason some people think Kaine isn't doing so great is that they are comparing it to a debate with Donald Trump. If you compare a debate to the debate with Donald Trump it's always going to look like you're losing because Donald Trump is so terrible.
posted by Justinian at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence is denying institutional racism?!

Yes, because Pence is the epitome of the white, conservative, anti-science, ultra-religious person who has never had to face bias because of his race, gender, religion, or literally anything else. It's a worldview that explicitly sees events as rooted in personal ethos, allowing no room for cultural biases or institutional inertia. Concepts like "implicit bias" and "institutional racism" are not just outside that discourse, they are anathema to that worldview. They live in a just world, which is confirmed by their own blinkered experiences.

That said, I really hope the debate keeps focusing on the issues that shows Pence as the vile, dismissive, racist, sexist, and classist monster that he is. I already know Trump is a pile of fetid shit, I want the rest of the country to get a good whiff of Pence as well.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [43 favorites]


I dunno, Trump's account isn't passing the Turing Test for me tonight. Just retweets, scheduled tweets, and non-interpretive statements.

He's surrounded by his team watching him. Because what America looks for in a President is the need for constant adult supervision.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Hey Mike, does Donald Trump have a plan?

I only ask because between criticizing the Dems for preprepared lines, and saying "War of Coal" and "insult driven campaign," you've said so only like eight times, so I'm not sure.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yep, I maaaaay not be able to watch this. Hopefully when I wake up in the morning, Trump will have tweeted out a picture of a pile of Dexadrine or something and we can all act like this never happened.
posted by penduluum at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


MOD: Pence, what would you say to the millions of undocumented immigrants who have *not* committed awful crimes?
PENCE: Trump has a plan to block illegal immigration and remove criminal aliens. After that's done, we'll deal with the rest of them.
Also, how dare Kaine claim we have an insult-driven campaign.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I dunno, Trump's account isn't passing the Turing Test for me tonight. Just retweets, scheduled tweets, and non-interpretive statements.

Turing? Or Voight-Kampff?
posted by Brainy at 6:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Why is Pence bringing up the basket of deplorables? Also why is he repeating the lie of Hillary calling them unamerican (jk I know why).
posted by Lykosidae at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016


I wonder how many people are hate-tweeting Patrick Kane or Hunter Pence right now.

Hunter Pence was in the Full House revival, he deserves whatever he gets.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence: "We are going to end illegal immigration for once and forever" (paraphrased)

"Did you just hear that?! Ours is the campaign of insults?!" oh please Pence, nobody is buying your faux indignation.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"If Donald Trump had said all the things that you said the way he said you said them he wouldn't be half as horrible as Hillary Clinton calling half of America as a basket of deplorables."
posted by winna at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"The thing that Pence is doing that is really working is he just doesn't shut up and he keeps talking softly on and on and it might be low energy but it's reading as reasonable."

Yeah, this is talk radio performance. Basically, one of the tricks to seeming to "win" political radio arguments is to just keep talking with a reasonable tone no matter what your opponent is saying in just this endless verbal filibuster because people can't actually fact check what you're saying, they're just getting a calm set of apparently reasonable things from one side.
posted by klangklangston at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


I thought the "So now we're even" line was actually pretty good.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


She's moderating the hell out of those two guys...
posted by mikelieman at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


"This is highly unconventional, but Handsome Joe Biden will be tagging in for Kaine for the last 30 minutes of the debate."
posted by drezdn at 6:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [28 favorites]


As a few of my friends have thankfully reminded me, very few people actually care about this debate. Deep breaths.
posted by duffell at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Pence is and has always been a better candidate than Trump. Also my linoleum.
posted by corb at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [24 favorites]


""Did you just hear that?! Ours is the campaign of insults?!" oh please Pence, nobody is buying your faux indignation."

GAMBLING?! AT RICK'S?
posted by klangklangston at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Ugh you guys, this is not pleasant to watch at all.
posted by Rhomboid at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Thank you Kaine for pointing out that Trump will NEVER apologize for anything: insults, birtherism, etc. Pence can shake his head all he wants but that's the truth.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


"I'm free to say what I want and if you don't like it, get out! But don't you dare call me a word that makes me use the dictionary!"
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Since I started watching seems like Kaine is fine. Shout out to the moderator for letting them talk.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence: "If Donald Trump had said all the things you said he said in the way he said you said them..."

I can't believe that this will not overtake "known knowns and known unknowns."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


"If Donald Trump had said all the things that you said the way he said you said them he wouldn't be half as horrible as Hillary Clinton calling half of America as a basket of deplorable."

I just completely lost my mind at that. Completely. Possibly the most Bizarro-World thing I've ever heard.
posted by dnash at 6:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [29 favorites]


I know ricochet biscuit that was a convoluted phrasing indeed!
posted by winna at 6:43 PM on October 4, 2016


okay, the feed i was watching froze, so i took that as my cue to stop watching.
posted by palomar at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016


I think Timmy got his groove back a little bit.

The moderator is solidly posing the questions, but Pence is just really good at ducking them.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


'They are deplorable you simpering pustule. Some number less than half but definitely double digits are deplorable hate driven fuckwads and we all know it. Racist sexist xenophobic shitbag assholes and we don't need to dance around it. Normalize THAT you pinch faced traitor to all that is good and noble of the human spirit. '
posted by ian1977 at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


THE WALL WILL ALSO BE BELOW THE GROUND GUYS
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


They are going to BUILD A WALL IN THE AIR. I want to see the specs for the levitating border wall.
posted by k8bot at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


UNDERGROUND ENFORCEMENT
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine needs to take a page from Clinton's book and stop talking long enough to let Pence hang himself with his own rope. I've caught a couple of times now where Pence was about to really step in it but Kaine talked right over him.
posted by timestep at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Why is Pence bringing up the basket of deplorables?

Because he apparently (correctly) predicted that Kaine would back the fuck down on it like he thought the rightwing racists might vote for Clinton or something
posted by Greg Nog at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Possibly the most Bizarro-World thing I've ever heard.

Genuinely Bilbosian.
posted by cortex at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"If Donald Trump had said all the things that you said the way he said you said them he wouldn't be half as horrible as Hillary Clinton calling half of America as a basket of deplorable."

Wait, is that really a quote? I'm just following along here, my husband and I will watch the debate later.
posted by KathrynT at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016


"If he did what you said did he would have done it — why are you dragging this campaign into the mud?"
posted by klangklangston at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016


This is painful to watch. Not fun at all.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Uhh, Pence knows all those things are on tape, right?
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


'Would undocumented immigrants be forcibly removed?'
Pence: That's a great question, let me take a moment here to distract you while I don't actually answer it. [fake, but only in that it's paraphrased]
posted by cjelli at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


And floating walls above ground too folks
posted by JoeXIII007 at 6:45 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence: "...a mountain range of debt?"

I'm... not sure that's a, uh, metaphorical thing.
posted by rp at 6:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think I'd die if I were Kaine because Pence is saying something objectionable every 10 seconds and not responding to it immediately would probably drive me crazy.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


> THE WALL WILL ALSO BE BELOW THE GROUND GUYS

AND IN THE AIR!
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Dammit Tim, stop letting him filibuster you.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:45 PM on October 4, 2016


If Kaine would just bust out some Hamilton references in Spanish right now (possibly something about immigrants getting the job done) I would love life for a short amount of time.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 6:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


That said, I really need Kaine to hold up his hands and say, "Listen carefully. This is exactly what the Trump campaign does. They trot out ugly lie after ugly lie, and when called out on it, they say, 'no, we never said that, YOU did.' I ask every one of you watching this debate to do the research yourself. Google these statements. They happened. They are real. Mike Pence can deny it all he wants, but that doesn't make it true."
posted by duffell at 6:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [56 favorites]


tim you need to ask where the money is going to come from for this giant reform and deportation process.
posted by winna at 6:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


THE WALL WILL ALSO BE BELOW THE GROUND GUYS
AND in the air!

I think what he means is that Donald Trump has reached 11th level and can now cast Summon Monster VI to call greater elementals.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


As if this weren't enough of a circus, Libertarian VP candidate Weld is livetweeting along with the debate, like a kid in the backseat, interjecting.
posted by mochapickle at 6:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Uhh, Pence knows all those things are on tape, right?

Tim reminded him.
posted by mikelieman at 6:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ugh. I ate all mu popcorn. Quick run to the kitchen to grab cookies.

@RealDonaldJTrump "@GeeVeeM: @realDonaldTrump @Susiesentinel Pence is so prepared! He did his homework to outperform Kaine."

Oh good, Kaine has just pointed out that both of their parents are immigrants.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wait, is that really a quote?

I might not have gotten all the bits of it but it's what I heard, yes.
posted by winna at 6:46 PM on October 4, 2016


I'm really glad Kaine keeps hammering the ugliest things Trump has said. Again. Again. Again. Again. The more he says it, the more ridiculous it sounds when Pence says "no, they're the negative ones."
posted by duffell at 6:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [28 favorites]


The questions are fairly milquetoast, but the followups are pretty tough.
posted by klarck at 6:46 PM on October 4, 2016


Actually the basket of deplorable is making inroads on my #NeverTrump people. No one has caved yet, but there's a lot of anger. That's probably why Pence is hitting it. Remember, all of Hillary's numbers are counting 5-10% of Republicans not voting for the Republican.
posted by corb at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


I totally see Trump getting jealous of Pence after this debate
posted by Tarumba at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Oh boy, the let's kill muslims section of the debate.
posted by dis_integration at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence isn't the candidate lol. Kaine ends every exchange with "yeah but Trump said abcd" and Pence just keeps shrugging.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Good debate judo by Kaine to use both ISIL and ISIS in the same answer.
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


> six pence none the richer

Mike Pence none the wiser.
posted by guiseroom at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Man, sometimes I get sick of this "we're a nation of immigrants" nonsense, but I guess I see that it's in the service of a good cause.
posted by koeselitz at 6:47 PM on October 4, 2016


> THE WALL WILL ALSO BE BELOW THE GROUND GUYS

AND IN THE AIR!


It reminded me of Rumsfeld saying he'd look for the WMDs in the east and the west and the north and the south; its that verbal filler that just screams "I don't know what I'm talking about."
posted by peeedro at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016


Shit, everytime he sets up the "defend this shit, son" bait, she switches gears!
posted by valkane at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence has his canned father knows best expressions, and spouts a bunch of untrue talking points and then gets an I Told You So Look, with much canned regret. I think he also attended the Orrin Hatch school of serious looks.
posted by Oyéah at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Deportation Nation is my least favorite Schoolhouse Rock
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


"Donald Trump can't start a twitter war with Miss Universe without shooting himself in the foot." Dad comedy gold.
posted by meinvt at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [31 favorites]


Personal Mt Rushmore. Kaine was saving that- did you see the smile on his face?
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Donald Trump can't start a Twitter war with miss universe without shooting himself in the Foot"

Full point blue
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [25 favorites]


@mattyglesias: "Pence doing a great job of making the case for Pence, but a poor job of defending Trump."
posted by holgate at 6:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kaine made an early mistake in assuming that Pence was a human opponent when in fact Pence is actually either undead or a construct and so you have to use different tactics.

Use bludgeoning weapons instead of piercing or slashing weapons Tim.
posted by vuron at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [66 favorites]


I like that Kaine has twice now said "here's the plan to X" and run through five bullet points. That's a good look.

While typing this he went through bullet points about Trump's military plan. "Trump said the world would be safer if more nations had nuclear weapons."
posted by fomhar at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Love that it's wrong for folks to be prepared for their public job interview.
posted by palindromic at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Oh snap, Mount Rushmore of Dictators while Pence just shakes his head.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine: [Top-notch set piece on national security and why Trump is dangerous]
Pence: "Did you work on that one a long time? Because it's got some really creative lines in it"
Kaine: "See if you can defend any of it"
posted by zachlipton at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [78 favorites]


I think Kaine is finally hitting his stride. The nervous chuffing by Pence is soothing...
posted by Panjandrum at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence laughs through Kaine giving a litany of Trump's dangerous foreign opinions.

Kaine came back by asking what Pence thinks is funny about nuclear war.
posted by winna at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [46 favorites]


Ok, no Jack Kennedy moment.
posted by clavdivs at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016


@RealDonaldJTrump "@GeeVeeM: @realDonaldTrump @Susiesentinel Pence is so prepared! He did his homework to outperform Kaine."

He really hopes he can get Pence to do his homework, too.
posted by ckape at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


corb, I don't get the anger from the NeverTrumpers. They're against the deplorables too! That's, like, part of their whole thing? So.... wtf?
posted by palomar at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


"I was in DC on 9/11"
"I was in Virginia, where the Pentagon is"
omg stfu you two
posted by gatorae at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Even if Kaine wins, I dread the headlines in the morning. Because they're all going to say Trump/Pence was destroyed last night. And we all know goddamned well Trump could join Pence on stage and they could take turns torturing small animals with power tools and their support wouldn't drop below 46% because holy shit there are a lot of terrible people, you guys.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


I would also love it if Kaine turned to Pence and quietly said, "I feel for you, Mike. I really do. I wouldn't want to be in your position. I see you there shaking your head and laughing, trying to pretend your candidate isn't a dangerous man. That's fine. But you and I know different."
posted by duffell at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [44 favorites]


One good thing Kaine is doing is laying a marker demanding Pence defend Trump, and Pence never says anything.
posted by gerryblog at 6:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I was also in a place on 9/11 and was sad. How many more decades before people can quit proclaiming that before being elected to office
posted by Countess Elena at 6:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [33 favorites]


Ugh I wanted so much more from Kaine. Or less. You know what I mean.
posted by tzikeh at 6:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Pence, if you pull the "I was in New York on 9/11" card in Trump's defense one more time I swear I will teleport myself to the debate floor through SHEER WILL and I will PUNK-SLAP you directly in the balls.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


I actually think it's smart that Kaine is focusing on Trump rather than Pence, no matter how bad you make Pence look, he looks better than Trump in comparison which lends credibility to Trump's campaign. The one thing that completely discredits Pence is that he agreed to be on the ticket with the great orange menace, other than that, he's pretty much an average conservative these days. And a lot of republicans who aren't so keen on Trump are dying to vote for an average conservative.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 6:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Iraq was NOT secured in 2009. No. Wrong.
posted by k8bot at 6:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Iran still exists therefore..." (paraphrasing)
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Whether you think Kaine is choking or kicking ass, I want to remind you all what Nate Silver implies in this tweest:

@NateSilver538: We're liveblogging the VP debate too, though, which could easily swing the polls as much as 0.006 percentage points.
posted by Justinian at 6:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [64 favorites]


Deportation Nation is my least favorite Schoolhouse Rock

Well, there was Elbow Room.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence is going through some extremely dull troop deployment discussion and tying it to some dead solider. It is very boring.
posted by winna at 6:51 PM on October 4, 2016


Is it possible that Pence may look like he's winning but is actually coming across as super-creepy to undecided voters?
posted by acidic at 6:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence has not defended Donald Trump's words or record a single time tonight.
posted by humanfont at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Quijano: Domestic terrorism?
Pence: BROWN PEOPLE. BORDERS. ISLAMIC TERRORISM.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Can't watch this any more; going to make a chicken pie for tomorrow's dinner.

Go get 'im, America's Dad!
posted by wenestvedt at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm hoping Kaine gets a chance to go after Pence for his terrible views on women and LGBT individuals.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Do they even understand what the definition of refugee is!!!??
posted by sweetmarie at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence just told a grieving mother her son's life was squandered.
posted by adept256 at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


It is very boring.

Sad!
posted by drezdn at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Governor Pence, what do you really think goes into approving someone for immigration?"
posted by Talez at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence is even more evil than Trump, I feel, watching his lying, political-evasion techniques on display tonight.
posted by valkane at 6:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Iraq was NOT secured in 2009. No. Wrong.

Indeed, and Bush is the one who negotiated the deal with Iraq for US forces to leave. Trump and Pence keep blaming Obama and Clinton when the deal was in place long before the inauguration.
posted by zachlipton at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Remember, all of Hillary's numbers are counting 5-10% of Republicans not voting for the Republican.

But all of Trump's are counting all sorts of % of Dems not voting for the Dem, even though polling in big states like Pennsylvania isn't showing that, which in turn suggests that the multiple profiles of legacy Dem places in Pennsyltucky are mostly meaningless in electoral terms.

I'm genuinely interested in the number of #NeverTrump Republicans who might be willing to go with a situation where Trump gets bored & resigns / impeached and the presidency goes to Generic Republican Pence.
posted by holgate at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016


My feeds cut out so I'm listening on NPR. I feel like I'm experiencing a totally different debate from everyone else. Pence has his radio voice, but his content is empty. AND IT'S SO FRUSTRATING
posted by chaoticgood at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


We will do 720 kickflip no hands ollie vetting

I have no idea what these words mean
posted by ckape at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine definitely seems to be doing much better now that he's sticking to snipes here and there rather than going full chomping-at-the-bit attack dog. Pence does finally have some emotion in his voice, but it's all anger, he's yet to approach enthusiastic about anything, really.
posted by Lykosidae at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine is trying to get Pence to defend the undefendable and Pence won't do it.

Maybe good strategy for Pence long term but it will make the Republican ticket look fractured like Trump and Pence don't get along. Sad!
posted by vuron at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is it possible that Pence may look like he's winning but is actually coming across as super-creepy to undecided voters?

Well I'm busy trying to decide what vampire the masquerade clan he is in but I don't know how representative I am.
posted by winna at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


They're against the deplorables too! That's, like, part of their whole thing? So.... wtf?

Hillary has not done a good job of saying that she didn't mean all of Trump's support, and every #NeverTrumper has a friend or colleague that has made a painful, terrible, hard choice and chose to support Trump. It plays to the crowds as though she's saying all Republicans voting Trump are terrible racists, which really isn't the case. She needs to clarify that more publicly.
posted by corb at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Elaine asks how Pence plans to stop "homegrown" terrorism. Pence looks pained and says, that's a great question, then spirals off on immigration.
posted by mochapickle at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Quijano: "How will you stop home-grown attacks made by American citizens?"

Pence: "Well, it starts with a strong immigration policy."

???
posted by 23skidoo at 6:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


How come she can't just ask them to answer the fucking question? Can we get some Irish journalists here? Even that BBC world report dude? He knows how to cut someone off when they start to dissemble.
posted by klangklangston at 6:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]



I think the reason some people think Kaine isn't doing so great is that they are comparing it to a debate with Donald Trump. If you compare a debate to the debate with Donald Trump it's always going to look like you're losing because Donald Trump is so terrible.


Alternatively people think Kaine isn't doing well because HRC kicked Trump's ass into December.
posted by zutalors! at 6:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Pence neatly sidestepping the US-born terrorists question with, we gotta have stronger borders so hostiles don't come in.

Mod calls him on that, puts it back on home-grown terrorism.

Pence is back to, first we gotta make Americans safe by keeping people out.

Kaine jumps in with, we have a plan to keep people out if they're dangerous but Trump wants to keep people out if they're Muslim.

Pence goes back to his recent anti-Syrian prejudice.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence just said, in answer to a question about how to prevent homegrown terrorism, that it starts with reforming immigration and then went on to specifically and carefully avoid talking about homegrown terrorism. And now Kaine looks like a guy who just drew three aces and is trying not to sweat it out.
posted by penduluum at 6:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine is just hammering Pence here, and every time Pence has to defend Trump, he passes. It's awful optics for Pence.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Hillary has not done a good job of saying that she didn't mean all of Trump's support

But she literally said half
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [34 favorites]


Good hitting Pence with getting slapped down by Republican judges.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kane started with the hand chops and now pence is starting it up too
posted by rebent at 6:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yes! We have cyber employees!!
posted by k8bot at 6:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine is just hammering Pence here, and every time Pence has to defend Trump, he passes. It's awful optics for Pence.

It's his only play. Defending him makes it worse.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well I'm busy trying to decide what vampire the masquerade clan he is in
Nosferatu
posted by drezdn at 6:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


"CYBER"

*cybers*
posted by acidic at 6:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


"But she literally said half"

BUT WHICH HALF
posted by klangklangston at 6:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


winna: Tremere
Trump is Malkavian
Okay I'm done
posted by Countess Elena at 6:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


borderline unintelligible on the radio, and Kaine is failing to exhibit dominance, which is what the crosstalk bullshit is about. C'mon Dad, sock him in the chops!
posted by mwhybark at 6:56 PM on October 4, 2016


Hillary has not done a good job of saying that she didn't mean all of Trump's support, and every #NeverTrumper has a friend or colleague that has made a painful, terrible, hard choice and chose to support Trump. It plays to the crowds as though she's saying all Republicans voting Trump are terrible racists, which really isn't the case. She needs to clarify that more publicly.

Maybe they're not bigots, but they are definitely okay supporting bigots.

The size of the violin I'm playing for them is physically impossible given that it's smaller than Planck distance.
posted by qcubed at 6:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [66 favorites]


BUT WHICH HALF

The other half, of course.
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:56 PM on October 4, 2016


It plays to the crowds as though she's saying all Republicans voting Trump are terrible racists, which really isn't the case.

You're right, only half of them are deplorable racists (as Hillary clearly said). The rest are just fine voting for deplorable racism.
posted by spitbull at 6:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


That Kaine line about public-private partnerships in intelligence was a bit cringe-worthy coming on the heels of the news about Yahoo.
posted by HumuloneRanger at 6:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Emails again. Check out cyber tape.
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Update:
Kaine: [Top-notch set piece on national security and why Trump is dangerous]
Pence: "Did you work on that one a long time? Because it's got some really creative lines in it"
Kaine: "See if you can defend any of it"
Pence: [Pretends it never happened and changes the subject.]
posted by zachlipton at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Bait and switch with the cyber security.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016


Quijano: "How will you stop home-grown attacks made by American citizens?"

Pence: "Well, it starts with a strong immigration policy."

???


No, he started by saying "great question," and then pivoted back to immigration policies.
posted by filthy light thief at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Please remember to explain what you're reacting to the the benefit of those of us who aren't watching live, thanks.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Moderator needs to slap down Pence harder.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Everytime Kaine quotes Trump, Pence laughs it off like it's all just fake.
posted by valkane at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Kaine: [finishes thought]
moderator: ok thanks.
[Pence smiles, looks ready to move on to new topic.]
moderator: lets talk about the tragedy in syria
Pence: Excuse me, are you going to let me respond to what he said?
posted by gatorae at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]



You're right, only half of them are deplorable racists. The rest are just fine voting for deplorable racism.
'

seriously. they showed up to the beach bonfire that turned out to be a cross burning, and they stayed. [Jay Smooth]
posted by zutalors! at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [33 favorites]


An hour in and nothing on climate change, women's right (Pence's worst topic by far), Wall St, trade, inequality, college tuition......AND NOW WERE BACK TO FUCKING EMAILS
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


drezdn I'm thinking Ventrue, actually.
posted by winna at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Gotta get that emailghazi in.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


MODERATOR MODERATE!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine is trying to get Pence to defend the undefendable and Pence won't do it.

Maybe good strategy for Pence long term but it will make the Republican ticket look fractured like Trump and Pence don't get along. Sad!


Heh. Will Trump be able to withstand all the taunting tweets about how his buddy Pence refused to defend him? For days on end? What about when Hillary Clinton needles him with that in the next debate?
posted by duffell at 6:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


It plays to the crowds as though she's saying all Republicans voting Trump are terrible racists, which really isn't the case. She needs to clarify that more publicly.

You're great corb, but I think you're a bit off here. She needs to clarify that by voting Trump they show their complicity in terrible racism, and that's about just as bad in an electoral sense. Open racism IS bad, and so is supporting it, and they need to say so, not try and coddle people in their bigotry.
posted by neonrev at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


I'm too far back to be relevant, but the external/internal terrorism thing was a missed hit (but a difficult thing to distill into a 5 second quip);

Internal terrorism attempts by 'minorities' in the US (ie., Pulse shooter) were instigated by institutional racism against the offspring of legal immigrants, who responded to discrimination.

Integration of immigrants would be one aspect of preventing (the desire to inflict) terrorism.

--

Geeze, Pence is a (technically proficient) politician. Shame he's propping-up/apologist-ing a travesty like Trump.

He's going to really help the borderline Rs unless he melts down.
posted by porpoise at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016


But she literally said half

HRC: There are some terrible racists out there

Terrible Racist: how fucking dare she say that about me
posted by Greg Nog at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [94 favorites]


Kaine does sound a little Andy Rooney at times.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016


Both of them steamrolling right over the female moderator.

At least Kaine said he was sorry.
posted by Sublimity at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


To call Trump a Malkavian is an insult to the noble clan of the moon. Trump is clearly some sort of failed Ventrue ghoul-turned-caitiff
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


She ASKED you to STFU, assholes... Both of you...
posted by mikelieman at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Don't forget gay rights, TD STrange. Are you sure he's worse on women's rights than gay rights? I mean, I don't think he actually wants to kill all women...
posted by Justinian at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016


Listening to Pence talk is like being eighteen again and "debating politics" in the form of being hectored by my girlfriend's wingnut dad.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Pence lacks the charisma to be Ventrue or Toreador

He's not zany enough to be Malkavian

He's against nature so no Gangrel

Pretty sure he'd try to fry any Tremere at the stake for being witches.

No Energy so clearly not Brujah

So he's either Giovanni (although that seems to fit the Trump brood better) or maybe Lasombra or Tzimisce.
posted by vuron at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


What? Pence is a Child of Set - he's dedicated himself to an admittedly amoral, destructive demagogue who only cares about his own pleasure and not a whit about those that bring him such.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Elaine, why would you tell Pence to shutup right after he segues into emails. That just goes to moderator bias.
posted by Talez at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2016


What's Aleppo?
posted by valkane at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Tone battle. Pence is syrupy smooth and droning and hypnotic and much better at talking over Kaine. Fuck. Kaine does not pick and choose his moment as well as Diamond Joe. If there was a Veep II debate, Kaine would own it, as he is sharp and prescient and forewarned about the Pence Hum, but there is not.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Forget about allowing the moderator to cut mics, give her a stun gun.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


She really needs the ability to cut the mics.

Edit: Stun gun would work too.
posted by No One Ever Does at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Good Lord, not the email server again!
posted by SisterHavana at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


(Also, high five to all my fellow kindred watching this thread, picking up LARP tips)
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Quijano asks what our role is in protecting civilians globally.

Pence called Putin a "small and bullying leader" which.. is a bold move, all things considering.
posted by winna at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I would love to know how Trump plans to rebuild the military with tax cuts for the rich.
posted by xyzzy at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Didn't Pence watch Obama/Romney? We already covered why our Navy is smaller than it used to be.
posted by Lykosidae at 6:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump/Pence: Bring Back The Draft!
posted by mikelieman at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence: 'We have the smallest navy since 1916'

2012 called, it wants Romney's debate lines back.
posted by cjelli at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Pence says we have the smallest navy since 1916, which who cares, guy.
posted by winna at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016


I'm so sick of that stupid "Smallest Navy" line.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]



Everytime Kaine quotes Trump, Pence laughs it off like it's all just fake.


I feel like Pence is only aware of 10% of what Trump has done at any given time. Like, you know how they keep the vice president separate from the president sometimes in case of emergency. They do that with Pence and Trump speeches so Pence can have plausible deniability(**).

(**)Hamilton reference!
posted by drezdn at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Actually I'm getting pretty stoked for the Hilary ads tomorrow with side by sides of Trumps quotes while Pence chuckles condescendingly.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


valkane: Everytime Kaine quotes Trump, Pence laughs it off like it's all just fake.

Head cannon: Pence is laughing to himself and saying "how the hell did I agree to be VP to this idiot."
posted by filthy light thief at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I wonder if because she said half it sounds more believable than Trumps all because one sounds more hyperbolic than the other.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine needs to GO TO TOWN on the Russia stuff.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


What is Kaine drawing? Maybe a funny cat to bring home to the kids later?
posted by k8bot at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I like that he brought up crimea(manafort lol) and specifically used the phrase "lean in" when talking about it. That was interesting.

I'm putting those HRC shotglasses to good use and it makes Pence seem a lot less like a regular lich.
posted by fomhar at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence is asked about Syria and talks about everything but Syria.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


What kind of next level shape shifting is this guy doing? Fight Putin, who is your best bud, with the military, which you want to defund?
posted by antinomia at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Kaine's big plus: He can defend the email accusations by basically saying "fuck yall, shit was investigated and they found NOTHING" in a way that Clinton doesn't seem to be getting advised to do (and instead trained to quickly apologize and try to move on).
posted by windbox at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


I mean, I don't think he actually wants to kill all women...

Only the ones he doesn't want to bang...
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Now I'm imagining a TV ad that shows Mike Pence painting a grim, terrifying picture of Vladamir Putin's Russia using clips from this debate. Slow fade to black... then a jam-packed series of quick, jarring video clips of Donald Trump praising Putin and Putin heaping praise on Donald in return.
posted by duffell at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


We are always going to have difficulties explaining complicated technology and privacy choices and capabilities to elected leaders and voters. It isn't going to be easy and we have to stay on it.
posted by humanfont at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine needs to GO TO TOWN on the Russia stuff.

There you go. I like it when he listens to me.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


And by believable I mean outrage inducing.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016


The 2016 Navy: Smaller Than Trump's hands?
posted by drezdn at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ah, LGBT folks. Let's GO.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence: 'We have the smallest navy since 1916'

The 600 ship navy is a perpetual Republican winner, because Reagan. Another opportunity to nail him on how to pay for naval expansion and contrast with Republican slashing of everything else.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton didn't want to bring a missile shield to Poland or the Czech Republic"

I realize you were only a toddler but Jesus Christ, Pence didn't you at least do a book report on the Bay of Pigs in high school?
posted by Talez at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Pence shakes his head every time kaine quotes trump as tho it's shameful of kaine to make such a mockery of American politics by quoting trump.
posted by ian1977 at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Uhoh I totally agree with what Pence is saying right now about standing up to Russia.
posted by Flashman at 7:01 PM on October 4, 2016


Does Governor Pence not realize that Putin is one of Trump's favorite people?
posted by SisterHavana at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence is asked about Syria and talks about everything but Syria.

He used up all of his Syria talking points on the question about homegrown terrorism.
posted by ckape at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine really getting into his groove now.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016


My fanfic version of this debate is so much better.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [30 favorites]


Pence can say whatever shit he wants to about Putin, he will have no actual power. That is what this debate has taught me.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence's feed cut out!!
posted by sweetmarie at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016


The size of the violin I'm playing for them is physically impossible given that it's smaller than Planck distance.

C'mon. You may not like it, but if disaster is averted there will need to be Republicans to rebuild the GOP, because there will be a GOP in Congress and it will have control of at least one chamber.

That said: I think it's going to be difficult to go all hands-across-the-water in October, when the campaign strategy shifts explicitly to GOTV and converting RVs to LVs. If that means that some #NeverTrump Republicans decide that they have had their feelings hurt too much by a candidate who was talking about the kind of fuckers who made them #NeverTrump in the first place, then I'm sorry but that's a conversation that now has to happen within the Republican ranks.
posted by holgate at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine caught out Pence on Russia - he quoted Pence saying Putin is a better leader than President Obama.

Unfortunately he then starts talking about Trump's taxes, which is a waste.
posted by winna at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


The way they keep saying "Elaine" is increasingly patronizing.
posted by zachlipton at 7:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


So many (plausible sounding but still) mis-truths from Pence/Repubs.

Shit. Fuck NCLB which just amplified the vaccine against rationalism.

Hah! Loved that Kaine referenced '5th grade <social studies?> class'!!
posted by porpoise at 7:03 PM on October 4, 2016


Hrmm that Washington Naval Treaty is definitely hampering the US Navy I mean they have to just use pre-dreadnought battleships and battlecruisers instead of having like 10 carrier groups...
posted by vuron at 7:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump supports the troops, except the weak ones.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


PENCE: Well, first and foremost, Donald Trump supports the troops.

Jesus Christ. Who does this bullshit work on.
posted by palindromic at 7:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence insists that the US needs a bigger military so that other nations will "know they are dealing with a strong America." Um. Dafuk has that got to do with "do we have an obligation to help refugees and other people damaged by war?"

Possibility 1) The Pence Hum hypnotized me and I missed some obvious segue between those.
Possibility 2) Pence ignored the actual question and just went off about how America needs the biggest stick so we can threaten anyone who makes us unhappy.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:03 PM on October 4, 2016


"I'm hoping Kaine gets a chance to go after Pence for his terrible views on women and LGBT individuals."

Attacking him on women will likely lose Trump votes; attacking him on LGBT issues isn't as likely to. (Can't imagine there are very many LGBT people voting for Trump — it'd be about signaling to the liberal side of mainstream voters that Trump would be bad for people they care about. I'd guess there'd be a reasonable calculus you could make out of how persuasive that is times the number of voters that rate it as a top priority [and, if you want, a progression of effect on people based on how high a priority they rate it] but I don't have enough of a likely voter model to actually make any sort of guess on how much that would shift people who are not already voting for Clinton to vote for her — including people who might otherwise not vote at all, based on enthusiasm, e.g. snake people).
posted by klangklangston at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


My fanfic version of this debate is so much better.

Pence has a metal arm and has been brainwashed?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


I wish Kaine hadn't pivoted back to taxes -- he was doing well hammering on the dissonance about Russia.
posted by Rumpled at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


A clash of self-selected echo chambers: The commentary here seems really displeased with Kaine, while the commentary I'm getting from Twitter seems pretty happy with him.

Neither of these are remotely uncommitted in their support of Clinton, so I'm not sure what to make of it. :)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Has Pence taken credit for Donald's campaign stances even once?

Tim Kaine always talks about what he will do with Hillary Clinton, while Pence always talks about Donald's campaign.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]




The size of the violin I'm playing for them is physically impossible given that it's smaller than Planck distance.

C'mon. You may not like it


I'm not sure people know what they're asking when they ask minorities to just "c'mon" on things like this.
posted by zutalors! at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Pence is getting rattled, asked if Kaine didn't take deductions when Kaine retorted that Trump doesn't support the troops because he doesn't pay his taxes.
posted by winna at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Jesus Christ. Who does this bullshit work on.

Right now, about 40% of the popular vote.
posted by mochapickle at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Pence is putting together a decent audition for the top line in 2020 by pretending to be unaware of anything Trump has said or done, he's not defending any of it, which doesn't help the ticket, but might help clear his name of the stink in 3 years time and against 15 more GOP retreads and burnouts.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


"Feckless" !DRINK!
posted by mikelieman at 7:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Uh Russia invading Georgia was in Aug 2008, which was still Bush. I guess Obama is responsible for that just like Katrina?
posted by Lykosidae at 7:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Jesus Christ. Who does this bullshit work on.

People who irrationally hate Hillary, the Clintons, and/or women.

People who root for the bully.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oooh Kaine referred to Trump as a maniac!
posted by sweetmarie at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Now I'm imagining a TV ad that shows Mike Pence painting a grim, terrifying picture of Vladamir Putin's Russia using clips from this debate. Slow fade to black... then a jam-packed series of quick, jarring video clips of Donald Trump praising Putin and Putin heaping praise on Donald in return.

Oh, and I forgot to mention: Yackety Sax is playing under the Donald clips. And then maybe another cut to black and a final line from Pence warning America about Putin, with more grim bass notes.
posted by duffell at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


We've got a Reagan-off!
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]




Kaine called Trump a fool or maniac, and Pence is all "that's beneath you" but I cheered so there you go.
posted by dis_integration at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


I can't watch anymore of this. This is a total train wreck.
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I just love how Mike Pence called out Tim Kaine for wanting to change the subject right after Pence himself answered the question by...changing the subject.
posted by SisterHavana at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016


"Jeffersonian values" playing to the crowd
posted by klangklangston at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016


I guess Obama is responsible for that just like Katrina?

And the death of Humayun Khan.
posted by Talez at 7:06 PM on October 4, 2016


we've got dueling Ronald Reagan quotes which is a huge waste of time.
posted by winna at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Let's corner the GOP on nukes!

I have a nuke for your party and I call it recordings of trump !
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine calling Pence out on not defending Trumps statement on nuclear armament. Pence blowing it off
posted by sweetmarie at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Pence must know that his political career is over unless Trump somehow wins.

The chances of being able to distance himself from Trump stink are minimal
posted by vuron at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


In 1916 the USCG had ~40 combat capable Cutters. Today they have ~350, not including vessels smaller than 80', bouy-tenders or ice-breakers. The Navy today is far more focused on power projection. When it comes to defense? Yes, the Coast Guard has missile-cruisers, and nastier surprises beyond those. This comes something as a surprise to people who don't live in a Coastie town - kinda like finding out the EMT has a grenade launcher in the ambulance in case the Ruskies get frisky.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Pence, stop trying to make the Clinton-Kaine ticket the insult ticket happen. It's not going to happen.
posted by palindromic at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


The enduring memory of this debate will, I hope, be Pence refusing to acknowledge or support any of Trump's statements, especially those in support of nuclear proliferation. And Kaine is hitting that hard.
posted by zachlipton at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Kaine called Trump a fool or maniac, and Pence is all "that's beneath you" but I cheered so there you go.

Frankly, at this point, smacking someone with a chair wouldn't be beneath this campaign...
posted by mikelieman at 7:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I can't watch anymore of this. This is a total train wreck.

My husband just sighed and walked sadly into another room. The only way I can handle this is because of y'all. THANKS MeFi!
posted by k8bot at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I haven't spoken to him in years, but I hope my navy gunner cousin is watching this debate somewhere from onboard a aircraft carrier the size of a small town, carrying armaments able to lay waste to most small countries, and giggling to himself about the idea of us having a small navy. Pretty sure his carrier could wipe out most earthly navies solo. He's my only liberal family member, and I hope he's having fun with this.
posted by neonrev at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence's dismissive head shakes at Kane's quoting is really,really gaslighting-feeling.
posted by Brainy at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


oh my god why wont Pence say 'of course more countries should not have nuclear weapons'??? He literally changed the subject. what the actual fuck.
posted by gatorae at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


THERE WE GO, TIM!

"Six times I've asked you to defend Donald Trump, and six times you've refused."
posted by leotrotsky at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [109 favorites]


Kaine: "Do you agree with Trump that more countries with nuclear weapons will make the world safer?"

Pence: "REAGAN QUOTE"
posted by 23skidoo at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence also needs to stop denying that Trump said things that he definitely, definitely said. It is too stupid.
posted by palindromic at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [30 favorites]


Oh wow, that line about not defending Trump.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


What a nearly tearful "he never said that"
posted by Countess Elena at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016


Alternating between this and the playoff baseball game. Whenever I get sick of dropped balls, wild swing-and-misses, and jaw-dropping errors, I just put the ballgame back on for a while.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


You know what? It's almost beside the point that TK is speaking the truth and that Pence is letting that truth roll off him like rain on a windshield. This whole thing is just very, very undignified and I hate it.
posted by Miss Scarlet with the Candlestick in the Lounge at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


that was great and the moderator ruined it.
posted by acidic at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I just realized Kaine is wearing a red tie and Pence is wearing a blue tie.

I have no further comment on the significance of this sartorial fact other than the fact that I might have gotten a wee bit drunker than anticipated a wee bit faster than expected.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm getting really frustrated with how both of them are talking over the moderator. It smacks of misogyny to me.
posted by zug at 7:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Quijano needs to have some way to cut their mics. This is a terrible format without it.
posted by winna at 7:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


And there's the payoff from that marker-laying. And Pence punted on defending him a seventh time.
posted by gerryblog at 7:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine calls Pence out for six instances in this debate alone where Pence could not defend his running mate. Pence goes all charley horse. And my feed cuts out!
posted by mochapickle at 7:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence's willingness to flatly deny that Trump has said things we have video of him saying is extraordinary. I don't know if it will work or not, but it's incredibly brazen.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [36 favorites]


I like Kaine pointing out Trump's blithering ignorance on Ukraine.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Scratch that, I hope the enduring image of this debate is Pence saying "he never said that" over and over again about things Trump has, in fact, said.
posted by zachlipton at 7:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


"let's start by not calling Vladimir Putin a great leader"

that landed
posted by mwhybark at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [30 favorites]


Man, Pence is finding out all kinds of awful stuff about Trump tonight

He's going to be really upset when he gets back to campaign H.Q. I bet
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [82 favorites]


Honestly, they're both coming across as assholes here. I'm pretty disgusted at the interruptions and talking over the female moderator.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Hillary wore red and Trump had a blue tie at their debate.

Kaine is doing much better now on foreign policy
posted by Rumple at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


zachlipton: The way they keep saying "Elaine" is increasingly patronizing.

More head cannon: they're saying Elaine like they're asking "Mooom, lemme finish!"
posted by filthy light thief at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


I just realized Kaine is wearing a red tie and Pence is wearing a blue tie.

Clinton wore a red suit and Trump wore a blue tie in the last debate.

I would be a fan of candidates wearing solid, neutral colors like soccer goalies.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I just realized Kaine is wearing a red tie and Pence is wearing a blue tie.

Happened in the first debate also. (Red dress for Clinton, blue tie for Trump.)
posted by Shmuel510 at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016


ooh smooth... Kaine said, "six times in this debate, I've called on Pence to defend Trump's positions; all six times he's refused, and yet he wants the public to vote for Trump."

Pence says that's not true, and that if Kaine lists them off, he'll defend them.

Kaine says, "more nations should get nuclear weapons." (Referring to Trump claiming Saudi Arabia, Japan, Korea should have them.)

Pence: He never said that.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


At first I thought Kaine was losing, and he certainly has let some opportunities slip.

But the more Pence talks, the sleezier he seems. Weird.
posted by Yowser at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


I hope our boy Tim has some garlic and a cross because in the split screen view it completely looks like Pence is eyeing his jugular as he dustily laughs.
posted by winna at 7:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Quijano needs to have some way to cut their mics

STUN GUN

Or at the very least, built in seat buzzers.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


C'mon. You may not like it, but if disaster is averted there will need to be Republicans to rebuild the GOP, because there will be a GOP in Congress and it will have control of at least one chamber.

You're right. I don't like it.

However, I think it's folly to assume that the GOP won't remain vile and obstructionist if they lose in November. But even ignoring that:

Why is the expectation that we always have to go more than halfway when they refuse to move? This is what helps center the discussion on what is palatable to them.

So, no. I'm not going to be 'nice' just because. I have zero evidence thus far that laying out honey works better than not laying anything out at all.
posted by qcubed at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Pence: I sure do lie smooth, don't I?
Kaine: YOU GUYS ARE LYING CHEATERS!
posted by valkane at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm getting really frustrated with how both of them are talking over the moderator. It smacks of misogyny to me.

I really don't think so. The format forces them into talking as much as they can get away with regardless of who the moderator is.
posted by ctmf at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence is definitely trying to make "insult driven campaign" thing happen. Welcome to the Upside Down.
posted by lydhre at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Alternative Universe!" DRINK!
posted by mikelieman at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016


I think people are mainly disappointed that Kaine isn't doing a better job of highlighting Pence's awful record.

But hammering on Trump is just soooo easy guys. It's hard not to take advantage when the opposition is just leaving their torso open for the body blows.

There aren't any knockout blows but it's continually forcing Pence to ineffectually defend Trump.

Forcing this election into being a referendum on Trump is a really good thing.
posted by vuron at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Active duty military types often feel the military needs to be bigger just on general principle. It's not a given that they'll scoff at claims the military is smaller.

Also, re: the Coast Guard: you're talking about a force responsible for the entire US coastline AND interstate waterways AND a giant bucket of other responsibilities using a number of personnel on par with the NYPD. Yes, they have ships, but no, it's not a big enough force at all. Not if you care about all the jobs the Coast Guard is tasked with.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine just pull out your phone, look up the clip on youtube and fucking play it instead of quoting him.
posted by Talez at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Now apparently Clinton is to blame for Russia invading Ukraine??? Well OK then
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


So the entire prep was built upon "so: you can't defend Trump." Which is great, but who's still paying attention 70 minutes in? The people paid to watch it, I suppose.
posted by holgate at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence's willingness to flatly deny that Trump has said things we have video of him saying is extraordinary. I don't know if it will work or not, but it's incredibly brazen.

No it isn't. *sigh* I'm just so disappointed in your insult-driven comments, Pater Aletheias.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [26 favorites]


Yes, the Coast Guard has missile-cruisers, and nastier surprises beyond those.

Plus it's filled with people who went to ask.metafilter for career advice!
posted by drezdn at 7:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]




Pence's "no he didn't say that" is going to look really awful in the ads when paired with Trump literally saying that.
posted by zachlipton at 7:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [84 favorites]


The Trump Mirror contagion has spread to Pence, despite his noble and many attempts to steer as clear of the Trump as possible.
posted by palindromic at 7:12 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence's vocal register is climbing! Hit him again, Daddy Kaine!

(Not really. Like, don't actually pop him one.)
posted by mwhybark at 7:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


cmtf, the misogyny comes in the way they're doing it. They use her first name as a wedge while she's calling them correctly by their last names.
posted by winna at 7:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I would be a fan of candidates wearing full, neutral colors like soccer goalies.

I'd prefer the "Star Trek: Next Generation Ten Forward Bartender" look.
posted by duffell at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


The best thing about this debate is that by Pence not engaging anything that Trump said, it's all still wide open for Clinton to double-down on in the next debate.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016


PENCE: STRENGTH, PLAIN AND SIMPLE
posted by palindromic at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


So after all that shouting back and forth, Pence STILL won't defend Trump's statements. Says it all.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


One of my historian go-tos, Paul Kennedy of Yale, still notes that the US Navy is bigger than All The Navies In History and All The Other Navies Put Together.
posted by holgate at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


its about the Russia, taxes!
posted by clavdivs at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence: "Wah wah this is an insult campaign"

Kaine: I'm literally repeating everything your running mate said
posted by Tarumba at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [63 favorites]


despite his noble and many attempts to steer as clear of the Trump as possible

Noble? Do words have meaning anymore?
posted by dis_integration at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016


This is fascinating. Every time Kaine highlights something Donald Trump actually said, Pence denies Trump actually said it. This isn't the same as two people with differing opinions about philosophy or something, it's a candidate for the Vice Presidency denying proven facts. Is he really so far down the well that he doesn't know what reality is anymore?
posted by wintermind at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [33 favorites]


Trump would know something about "crony corrupt capitalism," Mikey.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2016


It was, like, sardonic.
posted by palindromic at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016


"Pence is even more evil than Trump, I feel, watching his lying, political-evasion techniques on display tonight."

Pence has the blasé look of someone sucking the juice out of an infant.
posted by klangklangston at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [33 favorites]


It was nice of Trump to buy Pence his own mirror.
posted by ckape at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Quijano asked why Putin would respect Trump and not Clinton, Pence said "strength".
posted by winna at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence: "America is much stronger than Russia." THAT'S NOT WHAT YOUR RUNNING MATE SAYS!
posted by SisterHavana at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


"absolutely inarguable"

go poppa go
posted by mwhybark at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Okay, Pence was definitely going to say 'inarguable' before he switched to 'inaccurate.'
posted by palindromic at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Active duty military types often feel the military needs to be bigger just on general principle. It's not a given that they'll scoff at claims the military is smaller.

Active duty military types, in my experience, are also pretty inclined to be mad if someone suggests that they are weak in any way, or unable to do the job in any way. Trump & co tend more to the 'they are weak' side than to the typical 'more expensive machinery = more better' typical GOP approach.
posted by neonrev at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2016


For those catching up later:
Mod: Putin said he doesn't respect Hillary and he doesn't respect Obama; what will make him respect a Trump/Pence government?
Pence: Strength, pure and simple.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I got a pun I don't know how to use
six pence none the richer

Every time I see TRUMP PENCE I get 🎶 feed the birds, TRUMP PENCE a bag 🎶 going through my head, and I am similarly at a loss.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Kaine repeated that Pence called Putin a stronger leader than Obama and now Pence is denying his own words, not just Trump's.
posted by winna at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Kaine is under his skin right now, just keep this pace dad.
posted by cmfletcher at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm really getting sick of hearing Pence call Obama feckless.
posted by blurker at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Without some sort of mic powers there's just no way for the moderator to have any control here.
posted by graventy at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Russia reset? awfully random...
posted by acidic at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016


Every time Kaine quotes Trump, Pence laughs and shakes his head as though they're made up. What gets me is that, if you hadn't been paying any attention to the campaign up to this point, you would think they're made-up. Because they're ridiculous. And ordinarily, VP candidates don't run on a platform that has nothing to do with the top of the ticket's.

Luckily, there'd probably be very few of those people watching this painful sideshow, right?
posted by Rumpled at 7:15 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


I keep imagining Putin watching this whole thing over steepled fingers like the Patrician
posted by Countess Elena at 7:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


six pence none the richer

six times pence none questions answered
posted by Talez at 7:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


The way they keep saying "Elaine" is increasingly patronizing.

Huh. I read it completely the other way.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:16 PM on October 4, 2016


I'm good on all the nuclear stuff since Trump is so terrible on it, but I can't believe we're going to go through the entire debate without mentioning Pence's "I hate the gays and kinda women too" policies.
posted by Justinian at 7:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


The only thing I can think of with Pence repeatedly referencing the Russia reset is that the campaign is trying to get out from under the perception that Trump loves Putin.
posted by winna at 7:16 PM on October 4, 2016


REBUILD. MILITARY. CUZ WE ONLY GOT THE BIGGEST IN THE SOLAR SYSTEM,
posted by valkane at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


"Pence's willingness to flatly deny that Trump has said things we have video of him saying is extraordinary. I don't know if it will work or not, but it's incredibly brazen."

So, I had an uncle who was a serial philanderer, and what he told my dad was: "Deny, deny, deny. 'What are you going to believe, honey, me or your lying eyes?'"

(To be fair, he was not on the Indiana side of the family, which runs more toward domestic abuse over collectable tractors.)
posted by klangklangston at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I really wanna see this connect the dots picture Kaine has been working on
posted by sweetmarie at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Pence is clearly on the defense.

Short of saying "No comment" I don't know how he could be doing a shittier job of being a surrogate for Trump's campaign
posted by vuron at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]




HMmm, Trumpiest mirror so far?
posted by Brainy at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


You really want to talk about Foundations, Mike? Is that really where you want to go?
posted by leotrotsky at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Pence trying to hammer Clinton/Kaine on ISIS comes off as disingenuous, idiotic, and ignorant. For one, ISIS no longer controls Iraqi oil fields. For two, Trump literally said we should steal Iraqi oil as some sort of right of conquest. So not only is ISIS being beaten back, but Trump's plan would have exponentially increased not only the level of conflict, but the expenditures of American blood and wealth in fighting in a country that doesn't want us there.

The ignorance of the Trump/Pence foreign policy is astounding.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Heh. Tim looked like he was physically restraining himself there.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016


Oh God every time Pence says "when Donald Trump is president of the United States" I get that "Denethor eating dinner" skin-crawling feeling.
posted by duffell at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [28 favorites]


oh good, let's go back to the Clinton Foundation. Because two minutes is enough on North Korea and nuclear weapons.
posted by zachlipton at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine: peace through strength! We're all going to be drafted
posted by jazon at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh, Pence brought up the Clinton Foundation.

Go for his throat, Tim...
posted by mikelieman at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Peace through strength" is literally the definition of a dictatorship.
posted by femmegrrr at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Pence, you mendacious pigfucker, what do you think is already happening on the Korean peninsula?
posted by qcubed at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016


I wouldn't blame Pence for not listening to Trump at all and just not knowing what he says.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence keeps bringing up the Clinton Foundation. Kaine needs to go in hard on the proven ethical problems with the Trump Foundation. There's a lot of meat there.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I wish Kaine would explain the diplomacy of the Russian reset.
posted by xyzzy at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016


Ugh, that fucking travesty of an AP article. Thanks, assholes.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016


Oh, I'm glad you brought up foundations, because YOURS JUST GOT SHUT DOWN IN NEW YORK!
posted by valkane at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


Is he really so far down the well that he doesn't know what reality is anymore?

He's a Republican governor of Indiana that managed to alienate himself from the Indiana business establishment. The answer to your question is inarguably "yes."
posted by mwhybark at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


Yes. Yes, Gov. Pence, let's talk about foundations.
posted by penduluum at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


O FFS is this the Foreign Edition? Syria, Russia, North Korea. When are we going to get back to the Domestic policy (if ever.) I swear they are spending way more time on the foreign policy then they did in the Presidential Debate.

Oh ...Pence has swung from North Korea to the Clinton Foundation.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


argh, not that nothingburger Clinton Foundation/donors/access story again
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016


Just to argue with myself, it's because Kaine and Clinton don't give a flying eff about Mike Pence. Every minute they are attacking Pence on LGBT or women's rights is a minute they are not attacking Trump on taxes, racism, nuclear weapons, or anything else. So I understand Kaine's focus on Trump. I'd have thought the moderator would bring up the other stuff, though.
posted by Justinian at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


As a malaria researcher, the smearing of the Clinton Foundation is one of the most depressing, if inevitable, outcomes of this election.
posted by palindromic at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [74 favorites]


And we're back to the Clinton Foundation! It almost seems like all Mike Pence knows how to do is repeat his talking points.
posted by SisterHavana at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016


"I'm glad to talk about the Foundation!"

Now talk about the TRUMP FOUNDATION!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Every time Kaine quotes Trump, Pence laughs and shakes his head as though they're made up. What gets me is that, if you hadn't been paying any attention to the campaign up to this point, you would think they're made-up. Because they're ridiculous.

Yeah, Pence is just outright claiming up is down, but the tape is not going to be kind tomorrow.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ha, Kaine is trying to use eye contact to point out that he wants a response.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016


THERE WE GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I am so glad Kaine started with AIDS and opioid work when talking about the Clinton Foundation. That's (hopefully) got to sting Pence's horrible terrible very bad record on both those topics.
posted by Lykosidae at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


HMmm, Trumpiest mirror so far?

The perfect response.

posted by Panjandrum at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


TALK ABOUT THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL SHUTTING THEM DOWN!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


"cmtf, the misogyny comes in the way they're doing it. They use her first name as a wedge while she's calling them correctly by their last names."

Missed baller move: When she does that, tell her to call him, "Tim." Makes him relatable, makes it reasonably polite for him to use her first name, adds subtle highlights to Trump=misogynist narrative.
posted by klangklangston at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I would love for Pence to try to defend the Trump Foundation.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine talks about concrete positive outcomes from the Clinton Foundation and that it is highly rated. He then pivoted to discussing the Trump Foundation.
posted by winna at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


TIM KAINE IS READING MY MIND!!!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Kaine: Trump has an "Octopus like organization"

or, CTHULHU!!!! amirite
posted by k8bot at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Pence keeps bringing up the Clinton Foundation. Kaine needs to go in hard on the proven ethical problems with the Trump Foundation. There's a lot of meat there.

Tim has heard you.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2016


'Again, I would remind you both that this was about North Korea.'
posted by palindromic at 7:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [47 favorites]


Oooh yeah... Kaine gets to talk about the Clinton Foundation and its good works, and how it, and she, have both been found free of wrongdoing.... but since we're talking foundations, let's talk about Trump's...
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


THE PORTRAIT! YAY DAD! BRING UP THE TEBOW HELMET NEXT!
posted by Talez at 7:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Oh, emails. Come on.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence: "The Trump Foundation gives every cent to charitable causes" ... oh, that's going to make a lovely ad soundbite.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


I think Pence didn't get the memo that it's the second quarter and Team Trump is already down like 2 touchdowns and continually punting the ball isn't exactly going to erase that deficit.

I mean really, hoping that Trump can stage a miracle comeback in the next two debates is pretty optimistic.
posted by vuron at 7:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


So, SNL just getting people off the street for this one?
posted by drezdn at 7:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence's swivel-head rotation powers his incredulous eyebrows.
posted by zyxwvut at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Emails for tax returns. Glienicke Bridge. 12 hours.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm a bit behind here, but:

Quijano asked why Putin would respect Trump and not Clinton, Pence said "strength".

Translation: Alpha-male patriarchy is the only way. Trump and Putin will be two Mafia crime lords making deals with each other over "territory."
posted by dnash at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kaine: Trump has an "Octopus like organization"

or, CTHULHU!!!! amirite


Hail Hydra.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


JFC. Interesting back and forth about issues we care about and it's back to North Korea.
posted by acidic at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence drops the 33k emails line after claiming that the Clinton Foundation is an slush fund to allow the Clintons to travel the world while the Trump Foundation gives most of its money to charity.
posted by winna at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


No one has addressed topicality even once this round, and I'm pretty sure neither of them are flowing the round. SMH.
posted by drezdn at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Translation: Alpha-male patriarchy is the only way. Trump and Putin will be two Mafia crime lords making deals with each other over "territory."

This is different from the cold war how?
posted by Talez at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016


Ooh, I like that chinese intel, says Pence to himself.
posted by valkane at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016


I am literally nauseous watching a man nominated for VP bald faced lie while looking straight into the camera. Seriously ready to vomit. On the other end of the couch, my very calm and quiet husband began shouting at Pence on the tv, so at least I have a little comic relief to get me through this.
posted by hollygoheavy at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Holy shit the blatant lies about the foundations are just infuriating.
posted by graventy at 7:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


An octopus-like organization? Perhaps like a...Hydra?
posted by Maecenas at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Paying Trump's legal bills is clearly charitable though guys!
posted by vuron at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oooooh... A faith off!
posted by Talez at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Huh. Faith.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2016


Awwwww his mom and dad came to see Timmy in the big debate!!! :D
posted by k8bot at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kaine: "That's an easy one for me."
posted by porpoise at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


As the ending question even.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016


OOOHA YAY FAITH QUESTION

Can you discuss in detail, a time when you struggled to combine your faith and a matter of pubic policy?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Quijano asks how Pence and Kaine balance their faith with public policy needs.
posted by winna at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Josh Marshall says: Kaine is getting the key hits on Trump out in front of the audience more or less unrebutted. Not sure whether it's intentional or not, but Pence seems to be angling more for 2020 than 2016.

He might be on to something here.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Pence response: "I too, used to be Catholic, but that was before I found Jesus."
posted by leotrotsky at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


FINALLY we get to social issues!
posted by SisterHavana at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016


Okay, everybody who was hoping for a Bible-off tonight, your horse just came in.
posted by penduluum at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


""I think it's inarguable that Vladimir Putin has been a stronger leader in his country than Barack Obama has been in this country," Pence said during an interview with CNN"

I can't help but Freud that for Trump: Power = macho = cock size. Trump = very macho; huge, tremendous cock, lots of people are saying so at the Sizzler. Obama = not so macho; small cock (challenge to racist worldview — very upsetting) = not powerful. Putin = very macho; strong cock, much power. Pence tries to translate that into Homo Erectus without losing the dogwhistles.
posted by klangklangston at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pretty incredible we're going to get through an entire debate between the biggest threat to women's reproductive rights in America today and a pro-life Catholic Democrat without a single abortion question.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


Kaine comes out with the example that he is against the death penalty but he was governor of a state with the death penalty.
posted by winna at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine knocked the faith question out of the park with the death penalty tie-in. Sends the message that he'll go with the law on abortion despite being personally "pro life."
posted by tonycpsu at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


I know I'm late to this but the Pence "we need a broad shouldered man" thing is just gross and sexist and apparently something he's been saying for a while and I didn't know. Puke. Combined with the GOP website's 404 page, it just emphasizes what the party thinks of women and their place in society. Or since I'm quite willing to say not all republicans believe that, it says what the party leaders are willing to project as the party's attitude towards the role of women. And it's gross.
posted by R343L at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Okay, Tim's had a rough night, but I loved the answer about faith and policy. Perfect.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


I love that Kaine always divides his answers between his policy, which he describes very well, and what Trump said.

That way when it's Pence turn, he always has to be on the defensive
posted by Tarumba at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


All I ask is that you use your mind meld with Tim for good.
posted by humanfont at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wait what leotrotsky?! Did Pence just imply Catholics haven't found Jesus?
posted by vuron at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I was having trouble putting my finger on exactly was rubbing me the wrong way about Pence, and someone on Twitter hit it on the nose. "Mike Pence is America's gaslighting, passive-aggressive ex-boyfriend."
posted by antinomia at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [61 favorites]


Pence reminds me of my childhood in camps similar to Jesus Camp
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I understand why Kaine answered the faith question like he did, but I'm disappointed by the lack of any real mention of LGBT/women's rights so far this debate.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence: "I made a personal decision for Christ when I was a freshman in college" ?
posted by sweetmarie at 7:26 PM on October 4, 2016


Guys guys guys! I found a video of Mike Pence's mentor! Right here!
posted by Talez at 7:26 PM on October 4, 2016


I am not a fan generally of the combination of religion and politics but I am so here for Tim Kaine's patient, progressive faith. One of the few politicians that I really believe when he gives a public confession of his faith.
posted by duffell at 7:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


I'm worried. Kaine is making points we all know are sound, but he isn't managing to do so with any clarity. He's got that overexcited thing going on where his brain outruns his speech and clauses from the next sentence tumble into this one. I *like* the guy, and I find myself switching off.

Pence is speaking in easily comprehensible sentences, his inflection is on, he's taking breaths in the right places. His content is a nine-ounce turd, but the packaging is immaculate.

On abortion, he can fuck right off though.
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


OH JESUS HERE WE GO FUCK YOU PENCE AND YOUR PROLIFE HYPOCRITICAL ASS
posted by chaoticgood at 7:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


@markduvoisin: Kaine has calculated his job tonight is not to be likable, or to beat Pence, but to make stick whatever he can make stick to Trump.

@jbarro: Yeah. A lot of the debate analysis is missing this. Kaine's job is not to drive up his own favorables.

*breathes*
posted by lalex at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [46 favorites]


How is that a conflict, Mike?

Also, the question is about YOU, not fucking Hillary Clinton.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Pence is vague as hell about what this cherished faith is which is because he doesn't want to talk about his devotion to Ba'al on television.

You jackass the ancient principle of the sanctity of life is from the early nineteenth century.
posted by winna at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


This is the part where old dudes decide about a woman's reproductive rights. I think my ears sort of close up on their own when this shit starts.
posted by k8bot at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


Pence so very sad about abortion
posted by sweetmarie at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


One of the few politicians that I really believe when he gives a public confession of his faith.

Probably not a coincidence: the other one is HRC.
posted by you're a kitty! at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence is literally not answering the question of when his faith came into conflict with his politics, probably because he's a hypocrite who has no principles.
posted by dis_integration at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


I gotta say, Trump clearly isn't live-tweeting jack-sh**.
posted by waitingtoderail at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I was having trouble putting my finger on exactly was rubbing me the wrong way about Pence, and someone on Twitter hit it on the nose. "Mike Pence is America's gaslighting, passive-aggressive ex-boyfriend."

I just went Kate McKinnon-wide eyed.
posted by figurant at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


Pence is basically rehearsing for the 2020 GOP primaries with this pro-life argument.
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wait what leotrotsky?! Did Pence just imply Catholics haven't found Jesus?

No, just a joke. Pence was raised Catholic, but then became evangelical.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence goes on about how devout he is, and then goes on to talk about "sanctity of life" - talks about abortion alternatives in Indiana, and pro-adoption policies. (Fact check?)

Doesn't talk about a struggle between faith and public policy; it's all about "how I make public policy that matches my faith."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wait what leotrotsky?! Did Pence just imply Catholics haven't found Jesus?
posted by vuron at 7:25 PM on October 4 [+] [!]


An excellent example of when the [fake] tag might be in order

(that was not something actually said)
posted by Golem XIV at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Pence is going hard for evangelicals, and I'm sure the net is overflowing, too.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016


Paraphrase: "I really struggled with my faith when HRC said partial birth abortion was awesome." -- Pence
posted by xyzzy at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did Pence double down on religion over the law?
posted by klarck at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Although Pence is finally coming out with an answer to a question - his faith supersedes any issue of public policy.
posted by winna at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yes, trust American women.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine: We trust American Women!
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


I'm sorry, Kaine had a sincere answer about faith and Pence is just coming across a smarmy asshole.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


"pro-adoption state"

Hoosier adoptee here. a hearty FUCK YOU, YOU SOCIOPATHIC HUMAN TRAFFICKER to you, scumbag.
posted by mwhybark at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


Pence: "I try to spend a little time on my knees each day." [real]
posted by gatorae at 7:28 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Please drop Purvi Patel here, Kaine. PLEASE.
posted by palindromic at 7:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Doesn't support punishment? You fucking liar.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]




but since we're talking foundations, let's talk about Trump's...

And then Kaine blew it, swerving into talking about the "Trump Organization" (repeating points he's already made over and over) and then barely scratched the surface of all of Trump's Foundation shenanigans.
posted by Flashman at 7:29 PM on October 4, 2016


Wait, THAT'S the fundamental difference? I feel like there are some other really important ones too.

But yeah, it's a BFD. We CANNOT overturn Roe v Wade. Ever. Ever.
posted by k8bot at 7:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence backs down on Trump's "Punish abortions."

Turning point.
posted by porpoise at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


PENCE: Senator, you've whipped out that Mexican thing again.
posted by palindromic at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


"whipped out that Mexican thing again".

Please proceed governor?
posted by nathan_teske at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


"He said some of them are good people!!!!!" OMFG
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence finally taking the bait and trying to defend Trump. And failing.
posted by klarck at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Good gospel quote.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


The Dem spin room response needs to be that Pence is running a 2020 GOP campaign for himself, while Kaine is running a 2016 one for HRC.
posted by holgate at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Whipped out that Mexican thing again, WTF.
posted by jamaro at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine just put the boot in
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Senator, you whipped out that Mexican thing again.."
posted by obscurator at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence: "Senator, you whipped out that Mexican thing again."

...oooh, sounds kinky!
posted by SisterHavana at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's not pro-adoption, it's pro-identity erasure.
posted by mwhybark at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I thought Kaine just said he was quoting Matthew? Didn't he quote Luke? Luke 6:45?
posted by Justinian at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Has Trump actually ever spoken about abortion?
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016


Quoted the bible for truth!
posted by R343L at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016


"From the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks."

BIBLE OFF 2016
posted by gerstle at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


From the fulness of the heart the mouth speaks. Not "Render unto Caesar" but I'll take it!
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine is finishing strong.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kaine failed to hammer Pence on him saying that he didn't want to punish women when in fact Pence has already worked to punish women.
posted by winna at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Pence: "I try to spend a little time on my knees each day." [real]

Man, the alt-right anti-cuck contingent isn't going to like that one.
posted by sideshow at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Pence: "Senator you have whipped out that Mexican thing again."

That "Mexican thing" being Trump calling Mexicans rapists.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Governor, I regret to inform you that we're not doing phrasing anymore.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [25 favorites]


You've whipped out that Mexican thing again...
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016


That's a fucking home run.
posted by penduluum at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Governor why don't you trust women to make this choice for themselves".
BOOM
posted by k8bot at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [47 favorites]


Why dont you trust women? Why doesnt Donald Trump trust women? To make this choice themselves
posted by sweetmarie at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


Kaine: "Why don't you trust women to make this choice themselves?"
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


Why don't you trust women to make this choice for themselves?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by chaoticgood at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


Kaine scored all the major points

1)Forced Pence to defend Trump which Pence just went with the Kellyanne strategy which is already getting mocked relentlessly

2)Got a very strong personal faith answer in which should negate some of the "Godless Democrat" bullshit

3)Did no harm to the ticket

In contrast Pence basically had to lie relentlessly to avoid defending Trump which if this debate means anything (it doesn't) isn't going to impress voters.

Plus if he's angling for 2020 he's going to have about a zillion attack ads pointing out his false statements.
posted by vuron at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


To elaborate I actually, despite not being a Christian, really am glad to see full throated defense of progressive Christianity. Many Americans are religious and it's fine and good for democratic politicians to reflect that.
posted by R343L at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [53 favorites]


PENCE: Senator, you've whipped out that Mexican thing again.

Taco trucks on every corner!
posted by Panjandrum at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Again, this is the danger of a post factual error. Pens can lie all he wants on the TV, nobody's going to fact check him, and they're not gonna believe the other media sources fact checking because we all know they're biased anyway, am I right?
posted by corb at 7:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


"He's not a POLISHED politician like YOU GUYS, jeez..."
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Why don't you trust women?" YES. So great. And Pence had no answer.
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine is rather like Hubert H. Humphry, Pence is a lot like Lloyd Benson. He looks a lot an older Putin.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence is now going off in some haywire place in a passionate advocacy for adoption, not abortion.
posted by winna at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Why don't you trust women?" nvmd, this must be this.
posted by porpoise at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Re punishment: "Donald J. Trump said on Wednesday that women who seek abortions should be subject to “some form of punishment” if the procedure is banned in the United States"
posted by craven_morhead at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Pence so very sad about abortion"

he cries every time he sees an angel soft toilet paper package
posted by klangklangston at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


OMG Kaine said:

"When Trump tells you (punishing women, rapist Mexicans, etc.) he is telling you who he is"
posted by Tarumba at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [41 favorites]


My apologies for the spelling errors, I am maybe posting from my car. Like an addict.
posted by corb at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [31 favorites]


I gotta say, Trump clearly isn't live-tweeting jack-sh**.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall. Trump starts typing and the Steve minders lunge before he can hit send.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2016


Quijano asks what the candidates will do to heal the country after this divisive campaign.
posted by winna at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


I thought Kaine just said he was quoting Matthew? Didn't he quote Luke? Luke 6:45?

It's also in Matthew 12:34. Lots of overlap in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Christ Pence is a bullshitter. With all his religious righteousness I doubt he had sincere moral fiber in his being.
posted by angrybear at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Pence: "Society can be judged in how it deals with its most vulnerable - the aged, the infirm, and the unborn."

That's gonna come back to bite him. It'd be a nice line... if Trump actually had plans to take care of the aged, infirm, and other vulnerable populations.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


I admire Kaine for sticking to the message. I can't imagine it felt good, but he got it done. This is a great #2.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Kaine started out pretty rocky and overly fighty in this debate, but he's finishing strong and relaxed by standing on his own principles and forcing Pence to defend Trump's nonsense, which often go directly against Pence's own principles.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


Kaine: "Why don't we trust women to make this choice for themselves."

Pence: "Because society is judged on how they treat the weakest...including the unborn."

So there you have it. "Unborn" trumps (heh) "grown woman."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [27 favorites]


The only news coming out of this is going to be that Pence wouldn't defend Trump, so Kaine won.
posted by gerryblog at 7:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


man pence is in the talk radio zone. Never acknowledge a point, keep talking over…
posted by klangklangston at 7:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Allow me to demonstrate usage of the [fake] tag:

PENCE: [fake]
posted by perspicio at 7:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [56 favorites]


The idea that Trump is actually pro life is fucking laughable.
posted by gatorae at 7:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Also in Matthew, which shares some material with Luke because they are partially based on common earlier sources.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:34 PM on October 4, 2016


It's pretty clear that Kaine is doing this debate for Clinton, and Pence is doing it for Pence.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


> Has Trump actually ever spoken about abortion?

Yes, and said that women should face "some form of punishment" for it.
posted by Westringia F. at 7:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


War on coal. Drink.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Pence shares his running mate's inability to answer the question he is directly asked.
posted by Sublimity at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine: "Great line from the Gospel of Matthew: from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks."

(Context: Trump says he wants to punish women for abortions, Pence denies this would happen.)
posted by zachlipton at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I thought Pence came off well in the first half of the debate with Kaine looking a somewhat frazzled but that Kaine shifted gears a bit and came off well in the second half while Pence was clearly on the defensive there.
posted by Justinian at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Pence was raised Catholic, but then became evangelical.

— Then, said Cranly, you do not intend to become a protestant?
— I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?
posted by holgate at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I thought Kaine just said he was quoting Matthew? Didn't he quote Luke? Luke 6:45?

Lots of overlap in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

Bit of derail, but there's a hypothetical Q Source which ties together Matthew and Luke.

John is still a wierdo outlier.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Pence seems not to have really done any prep for this last question about how his ticket can unify the country after a victory. It's like he hasn't bothered to plan for winning...
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


So there you have it. "Unborn" trumps (heh) "grown woman."

I really do believe that Pence believes that women are part of our "most vulnerable", but his brain was smart enough to not say it.
posted by mikelieman at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine talks about Clinton's bipartisan efforts, Pence talks about how the country and world needs to be strongarmed by a businessperson to build a strong America
posted by sweetmarie at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]



"Why don't you trust women?" YES. So great. And Pence had no answer.


Pence began, "Because there needs to be a culture of life," and I really thought he was going for, "Because they're..."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Again with the War on Coal. They are trying hard to make a stand for OH and PA.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016


Whoa, is this where Pence comes out for Hillary?

Oh, nope. Trump.
posted by Floydd at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


For those reading along offline, Kaine recounted how Trump said women should be "punished" for abortions and Pence defends it by saying Trump isn't a very "polished" politician. And then Kaine shook his head in disbelief and brought out a biblical quote. Unfortunately saying it was Matthew, but it was really Luke, as Justinian said.
posted by mochapickle at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016


Pence is completely baffled by having to answer how to unite the nation so he starts painting an apocalyptic vision of how terrible everything is.

I notice that he kept deriding Kaine as a career politician while simultaneously talking about how long he himself was in congress but I don't expect anyone to report on it.
posted by winna at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Pence your first governor's campaign was suspended because you used your campaign funds to pay off your mortgage why are you trying to act like you aren't a corrupt career politician.
posted by Lykosidae at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


Frankly I think there is zero chance that Trump hasn't paid for ordered a woman to have an abortion rather than bear his child (let's be real, he'd never foot the bill).
posted by duffell at 7:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


If they're smart, what they'll do is take Pence's quote about measuring by how we treat the most vulnerable, and play it next to actual Donald Trump quotes.
posted by corb at 7:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [37 favorites]


AND it is over.
Rum now so I dont dream of Pence gaslighting me in my sleep.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


The only news coming out of this is going to be that Pence wouldn't defend Trump, so Kaine won.

I know you're trying to be optimistic but this is doubtful. We're going to hear a lot about Pence's calm demeanor and Kaine's aggressive floundering the next 48 hours. It sucks, and we're going to get through it, but thems the breaks.
posted by windbox at 7:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Well, that answered our questions: Kaine took one for the team, and Pence isn't really part of a team.
posted by holgate at 7:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


I think their wives look so similar. With the same haircut, they'd be almost impossible to tell apart.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:36 PM on October 4, 2016


The families are actually all standing there talking and shaking hands, compared to last week's weird awkwardness.
posted by zachlipton at 7:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hopefully thats enough of a wash that we'll be back to our regular scheduled Trump implosion shitshow.
posted by angrybear at 7:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hee hee PBS commentator: "Kaine came out caffeinated"
posted by k8bot at 7:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


It's over. Scattered applause. Elaine vanishes like a sigh.
posted by mochapickle at 7:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


feloniousmonk, it's a ridiculous question to Pence, because they don't give a single damn about unifying the country, or even what happens to their base
posted by Countess Elena at 7:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think we are going to hear Pence's calm demeanor and Kaine's awkward flailing. But we're also going to hear "Pence repeatedly denied that Trump said things that he actually did say. Here: let's see the clip." And that may end up being the main story.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


CNN takeaway is "Pence was better but Pense declined to defend Trump". So a tie I guess.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


"How will you bring unity to America?"

Kaine: Points to Hillary's extensive record of working across the aisle.

Pence: American life sucks currently, and it needs Trump's strong leadership to make it great again. [paraphrase true]

And no, I'm not going to bother mentioning how that will create any unity whatsoever. [not actually stated or even paraphrased.]
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Gosh, I hope so.
posted by valkane at 7:39 PM on October 4, 2016


First two on-site analysts I saw on CNN seem to be calling it for Pence.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:39 PM on October 4, 2016


The only news coming out of this is going to be that Pence wouldn't defend Trump, so Kaine won.

I know you're trying to be optimistic but this is doubtful. We're going to hear a lot about Pence's calm demeanor and Kaine's aggressive floundering the next 48 hours.


Maybe, maybe not. But here's the thing: nobody really gives a shit about the VP debate.
posted by dersins at 7:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


So Pence said we're going to be striking the Assad regime? That will end well.
posted by localhuman at 7:39 PM on October 4, 2016


It was Matthew 12:34.
posted by Lexica at 7:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Lollll Arbitrary and capricious jinx
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:40 PM on October 4, 2016


Honestly, all Clinton needs from this debate is for it not to change the narrative from "Trump is a fucking trainwreck." I'm hoping that it'll meet that very low bar. Even if everyone thinks Pence won, then it will be "don't you wish Pence was the candidate?", which is not particularly great for Trump.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [22 favorites]


They should give the moderators a supersoaker full of pee
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


"The idea that Trump is actually pro life is fucking laughable."

I imagine the thought process went from thinking that pregnancies ruin broads' figures to thinking that virgins don't need it and whores will take care of it no matter how illegal it is.
posted by klangklangston at 7:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


From a British viewer perspective, one has a suspicion that Mr Pence was not entirely truthful through the duration of this conviviality.
posted by Wordshore at 7:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [109 favorites]


Chris Matthews was impressed with Pence and thought Kaine came off as desperate. Raise your hands if you're stunned.
posted by SisterHavana at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Is CNN reporting anything like "Pence denies his running mate's saying a dozen things that are easily Googleable?"
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Maybe, maybe not. But here's the thing: nobody really gives a shit about the VP debate.

No, but this one provided all this material for "Roll clip of Donnie saying something vile", "Roll clip of Mike Pence denying Donnie said it", over and over and over and over that's going to be hi-larious to watch.
posted by mikelieman at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


But that gives people more of a reason to vote for Trump: he's even said he'll delegate as much as possible to his VP and staff.
posted by dilaudid at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


CNN hot take via Jake Tapper:

Pence wins on style (calm/reasonable sounding vs. interruptions)

Trump/Pence should have stronger fundamentals since "it's a change election", but in trouble since said change candidate isn't running away with the race due to myriad problems.

On that point, Kaine aired many of these problems largely accurately and Pence refused or declined to defend them.

Upshot: Pence may have won the night, but not sure about the week once we "go to the tape" as Kaine repeatedly said.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2016


Looking forward to waking up to a billion "you whipped out that Mexican thing again" memes.
posted by lalex at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I think we have a distorted view of debates because we listen to what the speakers actually say. Your average undecided voter would have the same response if they'd watched the thing in Esperanto. Who looked weird? Who seemed rude? Was someone sweaty or awkward?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yep Pence is the creep enabling, gaslighting douchebag who provides cover for the sociopaths like Trump.

He's probably too scared to engage in the abuse himself but is more than willing to live vicariously through the actions of the "alpha"
posted by vuron at 7:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


"Chris Matthews was impressed with Pence and thought Kaine came off as desperate. Raise your hands if you're stunned."

To be fair, Matthews, like most dogs, responds more to tone of voice, even as he recognizes many words.
posted by klangklangston at 7:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [74 favorites]


When he has a chance to think about it, Trump's going to be pissed that Pence "won" and he lost. Hopefully around 3:00am tonight.
posted by klarck at 7:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


I'm just waiting for The Onion's inevitable article on Kaine sneaking an extra juice box beforehand.
posted by ckape at 7:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


All that not-defending Trump *could* turn into a hundred think pieces about the "divide" in the Trump camp and how the two men barely conceal their hatred for each other, speculation about how long it can hold together. With the right push from the media. You KNOW if it was Kaine/Clinton, it would.
posted by ctmf at 7:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


From a British viewer perspective, one has a suspicion that Mr Pence was not entirely truthful through the duration of this conviviality.

*monocle drops into bone china teacup* You don't say
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [31 favorites]


I wonder how long it takes to thaw James Carville out for these MSNBC appearances.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Político: The Ten Most Interesting Moments of the VP Debate
posted by box at 7:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


You: watching the debate

Me: currently in a building with literally every 5th grader in my school district taking their first music lesson on their brand new band and orchestra instruments. I am sitting between the violas and the flutes but sound is carrying from every direction.

I am not sure who is in a worse spot.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [68 favorites]


Do we honestly live in a country where preparation and experience are automatically suspect?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [47 favorites]


Pence had a solid strategy, which was basically to retreat every time Kaine went on offense. It was basically 90 minutes of Kaine chasing Pence around and around in circles. Pence didn't lose, but it sure as heck was kind of a boring debate and sometimes seemed they were just talking over each other.

Taken in isolation, Pence did very well. He did pretty much what Trump should have been doing in the first debate. But the problem is, this is the second debate and this is the VP debate. Who in the US is going to be left that has both not been paying attention to the campaign until now and/or is tuning in specifically to see Kaine vs. Pence?

It's kind of closing the barn door after all the horses bolted.
posted by FJT at 7:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]




Mark Shields is killing it on pbs on the followup.
posted by valkane at 7:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Considering most pro-life people seem more concerned with punishing women I could see how Trump would come off as being aligned with that camp because he's clearly about punishing women

You know unless they are fuckable like his daughter.
posted by vuron at 7:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trying to decide if I have the energy to go see what the GOP site says about the debate now that it's actually over.
.
.
.
Nope. Can't do it.
posted by instamatic at 7:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I wonder how long it takes to thaw James Carville out for these MSNBC appearances.

True story, I was on a cruise that Carville and Matalin were on. Ran into Carville, said hello, he looked and talked WAY more normal in real-life.
posted by waitingtoderail at 7:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: Clinton's close ties to Russia deserve scrutiny [real]

Trump: Clinton's hairpiece is horrendous and I hear she gives out fake cufflinks [fake]
posted by penduluum at 7:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Focus group on CNN overwhelmingly picked Kaine.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [40 favorites]


ABC News analysis is commending Pence for staying calm, but essentially saying that Kaine "sacrificed himself" to hammer home points against Trump and cement the college-educated women demographic. Also, they're pretty unequivocal that Pence is a big fat liar.
posted by gladly at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [41 favorites]


From a British avert-my-eyes perspective: if, as I actually expect, HRC is one-term, the Pence-Kaine debates in 2020 will be very different.

Pence is angling for 2020, and the fact of his running alongside a dumpster fire on wheels in 2016 is merely peripheral. Kaine is drilled on 2016.
posted by holgate at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence was going into specifics on confronting Russia that are nothing like anything Trump has ever said about Russia. I'd love to see Trump asked if he agrees with them.
posted by Flashman at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


CNN undecided focus group just gave it to Kaine overwhelmingly

Edit: ha, DOT
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Kaine: "Your name is Michael Pence. You were born in 1959. You have a wife. You have children."

Pence: "Nonsense. Never happened." [fake]
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [29 favorites]


Winner or Loser doesn't matter. The only thing anyone will remember about this debate is the phrase "You whipped out that Mexican thing again."
posted by humanfont at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


So that debate in itself was a wash. Bad format, nothing really landed hard in the moment. However the Trump side gained nothing, and we're fast approaching the point where a failure to change the game is itself a loss for their side.

Secondly, Team Clinton can now go to town with ads showing Pence's blatant denials against Trump footage.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


CNN focus group overwhelmingly thought Kaine was the winner, FYI. Like 18 vs 3. Tapper notes the panel is from Richmond, though, where Kaine was mayor, so maybe not an unbiased sample.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


CNN undecided focus group just gave it to Kaine overwhelmingly
Wow, really?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Fox News undecided focus group just gave it to Putin. [fake]
posted by tonycpsu at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Do we honestly live in a country where preparation and experience are automatically suspect?

Competence is cheating.
posted by EatTheWeak at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


This is probably my second exposure to Tim Kaine since he was announced and, I like this man [yt].

He seemed uncomfortable a lot - it's not in his nature to put anyone down and it pains him to call out Pence's fake politi-speak. If his rhetoric lacked fire, it was more a reluctance to be mean while needing to do what his party needed of him.

But Pence did a lot of damage, too. Technical Draw, could be argued either way depending on strategy/tactics.

Long live the fighters!
posted by porpoise at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump: Clinton's hotels are tacky and everyone thinks so. [fake]
posted by drezdn at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Yes! CNN just said Pence would be a better general election candidate than Trump! Less than five hours till 3am.
posted by DanSachs at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [19 favorites]


The CBS focus group almost unanimously said Pence did better, the ones who were leaning Trump said it made them more likely to vote for him, but it didn't change the minds of any of the Clinton leaners.
posted by EarBucket at 7:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Why would you assume Hillary is one term? She would level Pence in a debate; all she'd have to do is bring up his shitty record and tendency not to show up for work. Plus having Trump's fail-smear all over him. If he's her challenger in 2020, she's a two-termer.
posted by emjaybee at 7:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Tapper notes the panel is from Richmond, though, where Kaine was mayor, so maybe not an unbiased sample.

Why the hell would CNN recruit their panel from Richmond?
posted by zachlipton at 7:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


KAINE: Mr. Trump is a man

PENCE: Nonsense

KAINE: Who lives

PENCE: Everyone knows he's dead

KAINE: In New York

PENCE: Doesn't even exist
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [117 favorites]


Are we now in the tea interval, or has this particular episode of japes and tomfoolery come to a conclusion?
posted by Wordshore at 7:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


The outcome of this debate wasn't as clear as the first presidential debate, but I think in order to talk about whether Pence won or not it's necessary to first look at what winning means in the context of the state of his campaign. In order to do that, I have to bring it back to the old question: we know Trump's present coalition has a ceiling so what did Pence do to broaden his appeal and win new voters into the fold? I think to the extent this debate matters at all, over the long term as soundbites from tonight pick up airtime in new ads, Pence's dropped arguments will reveal that Kaine got the upper hand tonight.
posted by feloniousmonk at 7:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Over on NBC, Kellyanne is up on the recap. When asked about Trump and taxes, she insists that he's always paid taxes! Real estate taxes, payroll taxes! When prompted, she hastily remembers to say federal income tax.
posted by mochapickle at 7:49 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


The response on Crimea needs to be something more like this, I think: on top of not even knowing Russia had annexed Crimea—thinking that Russia was already in Ukraine only in "a certain way" even when challenged on that—possession is nine-tenths and Trump gave away exactly what Russia wanted, the last tenth, for free! The instant he said "yes" to lifting sanctions on Russia related to Crimea and recognizing the annexation, and followed that with "the people of Crimea"... "would rather be with Russia" he gave away the most important bargaining chip, because he had no idea what the hell is going on in Ukraine, and because in actuality he's such a shitty negotiator that he didn't even realize a negotiation was going on.

If Trump were to become president, Russia will always be able to say "the President of the United States acknowledged that Crimea belongs properly as part of the Russian Federation." It's over, it's done. Russia got that for free. This is what happens when Trump has to deal with equals on an even playing field. The only kind of negotiation is remotely able to handle is when he's the rich guy with a team of lawyers beating up on a small business partner or an employee.

BTW, lol Chris Matthews: "Kaine hit all the erogenous zones of the Democratic party"
posted by XMLicious at 7:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


MSNBC is basically salivating for a week's worth of clips refuting all of Pence's bizarre refutations of things Trump clearly said.
posted by gatorae at 7:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yes! CNN just said Pence would be a better general election candidate than Trump! Less than five hours till 3am.

Oh my God everyone in the WORLD needs to tweet this news to Trump and ask him if he's sad, is he gonna cry, hey, you gonna cry, hey, you mad, your feelings hurt, you gonna cry?
posted by duffell at 7:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [31 favorites]


Would Pence make it out of a primary? If Trump doesn't win, the Republican field seems like it would be crowded again in 2020, unless someone like Paul Ryan could scare off most of the potential candidates.
posted by drezdn at 7:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


My husband and I agree, after the vice-presidential debate:
Get rid of Hillary and Donald and put Tim Kaine and Mike Pence in.
I haven't heard from my daughters yet (one isn't voting, the other is... voting her conscious.)

We will still probably cancel each other out, but we both would be more sure of our votes.
I like Kaine.
posted by TrishaU at 7:52 PM on October 4, 2016


Paul Ryan certainly scares me, he's the rich bully in an 80's teen movie.
posted by valkane at 7:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Do we honestly live in a country where preparation and experience are automatically suspect?

Nobody has enough books to make a good fire, so this is the next best thing.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Are we now in the tea interval, or has this particular episode of japes and tomfoolery come to a conclusion?

Tea until Sunday. Cricket has nothing on US elections.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I bet Trump is going to be livid about this. Every point Pence scored was for Pence, not the team, and he basically acted like he was embarrassed to be Trump's running mate. Trump is not going to be able to stand that.
posted by Mitrovarr at 7:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [28 favorites]


Pence-Kaine debates in 2020
Under what scenario would Pence and Kaine be debating in 2020?
posted by zutalors! at 7:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


> Get rid of Hillary and Donald and put Tim Kaine and Mike Pence in

What positions does Kaine hold that you like, that Clinton doesn't?
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [92 favorites]


Why does everybody act like politics is a sport? It's not. It's how we live as a society. This isn't fleeting or something to pass time.

No one, not a single person, is talking about how Pence just opposed abortion in like the creepiest way possible.
Now I just feel bad.
posted by Talez at 7:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Even if Pence filibustered his way into "winning" the debate next day analysis is going to be brutal because he'll come off as a liar.

And the late night shows and SNL are going to have a field day with the egregious lies.

So even if it looks good for Pence in the short term it's actually going to cost Trump over the long haul.
posted by vuron at 7:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Didn't Biden get the same admonishments for being rude to Ryan? Good times.
posted by klarck at 7:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I was watching the Washington Post feed. The two talking heads after the debate agreed that Pence won on style but Kaine won on substance. I would not even agree with Pence winning on style. There were moments when his 2 minutes seemed liked eternity. The man droned. He was calm, yes, but oh so dull.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


From a British viewer perspective, one has a suspicion that Mr Pence was not entirely truthful through the duration of this conviviality.

*monocle drops into bone china teacup* You don't say


My word!
posted by Behemoth at 7:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Would Pence make it out of a primary? If Trump doesn't win, the Republican field seems like it would be crowded again in 2020, unless someone like Paul Ryan could scare off most of the potential candidates.

If Trump doesn't win, the political press and EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICAN LEADER will shit all over him for 4 years, leaving his bruised ego with two options*: (1) Run again to prove to everyone how great he is, or (2) Sit on the sidelines and shout at anyone who will listen about what fucking losers the Republican candidates all are.

*This is assuming he's still alive in 4 years, which is all but assured, because mean people live for-fucking-ever.
posted by duffell at 7:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


I loooove everyone on TV saying Pence was only out to help Pence 2020. You just know Trump is watching and fuming.
posted by acidic at 7:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


My husband and I agree, after the vice-presidential debate: Get rid of Hillary and Donald and put Tim Kaine and Mike Pence in.

People say this every year (with the exception of Palin for obvious reasons) and it's a function of the differing roles of a Vice Presidential and Presidential candidate. Were Kaine in the P slot he'd be the one under withering fire by the other side.
posted by Justinian at 7:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Mitrovarr, I think you're right, but I think even Trump (oh what am I saying) can keep that under wraps. He'll be bitter about it, but it seems like the two men have no relationship to damage.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


> What positions does Kaine hold that you like, that Clinton doesn't?

A penis.
posted by mrzarquon at 7:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [54 favorites]


Under what scenario would Pence and Kaine be debating in 2020?

If Trump wins and quits in his first 100 days or Pence is an evangelical ticket balancer for zombie Ayn Rand.
posted by cmfletcher at 7:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Thinking back on the Clinton/Trump debate, I'm wondering why lied more. Trump or Pence? You'd think Trump would have had it locked up, but Pence was lying pretty consistently.
posted by No One Ever Does at 7:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]



Didn't Biden get the same admonishments for being rude to Ryan? Good times.


MALARKY!
posted by drezdn at 7:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Egregious lies and Pence Head Shaking. There goes Mike, denying reality again.
posted by valkane at 7:56 PM on October 4, 2016



Under what scenario would Pence and Kaine be debating in 2020?

If Trump wins and quits in his first 100 days or Pence is an evangelical ticket balancer for zombie Ayn Rand.


Right, it's a totally nonsensical scenario.
posted by zutalors! at 7:56 PM on October 4, 2016


Would Pence make it out of a primary? If Trump doesn't win, the Republican field seems like it would be crowded again in 2020, unless someone like Paul Ryan could scare off most of the potential candidates.

Pence is gunning for the role of elder statesman, he's shooting to sweep in as the establishment's inside man who was ready to govern on behalf of Trump, and he'd have the evangelical vote. He could have a shot.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I loooove everyone on TV saying Pence was only out to help Pence 2020. You just know Trump is watching and fuming.

Trump's been watching his favorite sex tapes for at least half an hour now.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kaine basically put on the Red Tearstone Ring and spammed R1 rapier attacks

No style, but later analysis will show massive DPS
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [22 favorites]


Trump lies instinctively, Pence in a more calculated and obvious fashion.
posted by emjaybee at 7:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


If utterly destroying one's VP debate opponent could shift an election, we would have had a President Dukakis.

My take is Pence came across marginally better on the optics/style, and stuck to the normal, vile standard of the modern Republican party on policy, changing nobody's mind. I don't see this moving the needle a whole lot.
posted by tclark at 7:57 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


For tonight's debate, for all of Pence's jabs against Kaine for being a lifelong insider politician, ironically for me it seemed that Pence's calm demeanor and smooth artful dodging non-answers made him seem much more like a lifelong insider than Kaine's overly excited and earnest guy trying his darndest to land a haymaker.
posted by FJT at 7:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


Costa: Pence's performance tonight: "Rush Limbaugh on decaf" with the wistful ethos of a John Mellencamp song
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump: Clinton's hotels are tacky and everyone thinks so. [fake]

You joke about this, but I recently re-watched Dune with another MeFi-er, and one of the things that struck me was how Trump's penthouse decor looked a lot like the decadent palace of the failing Corrino Imperial regime.
posted by qcubed at 7:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


I'm going to make an oddball prediction, but I'm completely serious: the lasting public recollection/interpretation of this debate is going to be based, not on this boring, fingernails-on-a-chalkboard event we just watched, but on SNL's cold open sketch about it that airs this weekend. The "winner" as recorded by history will be whoever comes off better in that sketch.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


Last three @RealDonaldJTrump tweets:



"@Gsimmons03Ginny: @realDonaldTrump ..Kaine is awful, Trump and Pence are the ticket..no more lies, we are ready to see America Great Again!

"@AnyoneTennis: @timkaine Cannot believe how often the moderator interrupts #Pence vs the other guy...so obvious @FoxNews" So true!

Mike Pence won big. We should all be proud of Mike!


Not sure why he needed to diss the moderator-- I guess it is just his go to stance after any debate. I would like to see a time comparison because I would be willing to bet that Pence talked slightly more than Kaine.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump's advisors were probably there to make sure he concentrated on Twitter, and not the actual debate.
posted by Yowser at 7:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


I gave up about 40 minutes in. The format was bad – it was painful watching them interrupt each other constantly. Kaine's performance was disappointing, and Pence just lied and evaded (and, from what I saw, got away with it).

I think it was the most recent episode of the FiveThirtyEight Elections podcast where they said that, historically, VP debates have almost no influence on the polls. So there's that?

From FiveThirtyEight:

There are two main takeaways. One is that Kaine came off overly aggressive and seemed too eager to get in his memorized talking points. The other is that Pence happily and calmly defended a version of his running mate that doesn’t exist.

That was pretty much my take.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


Yes, but Pence was mostly lying ABOUT Trump's lies. MetaLiar.
posted by instamatic at 7:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


No style, but later analysis will show massive DPS

Only if we win. Dad Joke Kaine was a no-show, even-keeled, honey-toned Pence was there all night. Polls will not go our way for at least a week.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:00 PM on October 4, 2016


My takeaway is that this debate was a very important event in which the two vic... zzzzzz.

Can't wait for Sunday.
posted by Justinian at 8:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


MetaFilter MetaLiar: Donald never said that.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Slap*Happy, VP debates do not affect polls.
posted by Justinian at 8:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


From a British viewer perspective, one has a suspicion that Mr Pence was not entirely truthful through the duration of this conviviality

From an Aussie perspective, I reckon that Pence ratbag was tellin' a bunch of porkies
posted by Rumpled at 8:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [54 favorites]


Why would you assume Hillary is one term?

Because 2020 is a census year; because 2018 is likely to be a bad year for the Dems in the Senate; because the GOP strategy of rabid obstruction (even w/ SCOTUS) is not going anywhere. There is no Dem upside to a Hillary Clinton second term. I wish there were.

Again, it's taking one for the team.
posted by holgate at 8:01 PM on October 4, 2016


Barring death or infirmity there is literally zero chance of Clinton not heading the 2020 ticket if she wins in 2016.
posted by Justinian at 8:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [43 favorites]


Polls will not go our way for at least a week.

I don't expect this to have much of an effect on the polls, although this is a very unusual election so who knows. In any case, whatever happens to the polls in the next 5 days will all be erased by what happens after Sunday's Townhall.
posted by dis_integration at 8:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Let's make sure she wins this one then we'll start working to minimize the damage in 2018 and 2020...mkay? The circular firing squad can wait.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:02 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Tea until Sunday. Cricket has nothing on US elections.

You have never seen the amount of cake available at a tea break in a cricket match.
posted by holgate at 8:03 PM on October 4, 2016


BTW it's National Taco Day!
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 8:03 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Slap*Happy, VP debates do not affect polls.

This is certainly true in that the debates don't have a direct, immediate effect, but a LOT of news cycle fodder came out of this. We'll see if anything comes of it.
posted by duffell at 8:04 PM on October 4, 2016


Yeah wait, you're suggesting is she wins this year she'll decline to run in 2020? Or that the Dems will primary her and win? That simply doesn't happen. That's not a thing that happens.
posted by penduluum at 8:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


Oh sure, whip out that Mexican thing.
posted by condour75 at 8:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]



BTW it's National Taco Day!


"You've whipped out that Mexican thing again."
posted by drezdn at 8:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Beat to it!
posted by drezdn at 8:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


MetaLiar: Donald never said that.

Feels Metafilter Man.
posted by Talez at 8:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


By and by, visit http://thatmexicanthing.com
posted by R343L at 8:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


I am buttoning out if someone starts a 2020 election thread.
posted by DanSachs at 8:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


There's a woman on MSNBC with a "Seaborn for America" poster in the background, which is awesome (and someone else with a giant Gary Johnson head, to which Maddow says "ask it what Aleppo is.")
posted by zachlipton at 8:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Kaine only won this one in some crazy alternate universe where words have meanings
posted by theodolite at 8:06 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]




I am buttoning out if someone starts a 2020 election thread.

So am I.
posted by restless_nomad at 8:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [24 favorites]


Eric Trump disgusted Obama did not demand a marching band to greet him in China

Yeah idk either, this is his debate reaction somehow
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Flashback: Pence tries to scoffingly react to Kaine's characterization of Trump's "Putin is a stronger leader" schtick, stammers a bit, ends up calling it "absolutely... inaccurate." Mefite reaction:

palindromic: "Okay, Pence was definitely going to say 'inarguable' before he switched to 'inaccurate.'"

I took it as an easy Freudian slip joke. Turns out that's literally the word Pence used to describe Putin's superior leadership over Obama, so maybe it was?
posted by Rhaomi at 8:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think there is actually something interesting in that Chris Matthews comment about "democrats erogenous zones"

Clinton/Kaine are apparently no longer giving a fuck about trying to peel off undecided voters from Trump because Trump can't seem to break 42-43%. Clinton/Kaine just need to drive Democratic enthusiasm and while Kaine might of seemed too feisty at times he made a very clear case about the differences between Clinton/Kaine and Trump/Pence in a way that will almost certainly help drive voter turnout.

In contrast Pence did absolutely nothing to expand the Trump base.

If I didn't know better it almost seems like the polling would be showing the opposite of what it actually is because Pence was defending like all he needed to do was play rope a dope but nothing could be farther from the truth.
posted by vuron at 8:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Didn't Pence sorta look like he was hearing a strange sound at times? Maybe his political future circling the bowl.
posted by Splunge at 8:08 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine: so, then there was the red wedding...

Pence: (shaking head) never happened...

Kaine: and then, rick bit this guys throat out...

Pence: nonsense

Kaine: and then we find out Bruce Willis was dead the whole time!

Pence: that tiny dictator will be put in his place by our STRENGTH! We must REBUILD THE MILITARY! EMAIL SERVER!

Kaine: turns out Robert Redford is Hydra.

Pence: Robert Redford's plan is a goodly plan that will make all the coal warriors put down their coal weapons and stop this coal war.
posted by valkane at 8:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


I have friends already lighting up FB and Twitter with colorful offers to show Pence their Mexican things.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [24 favorites]


Kaine only won this one in some crazy alternate universe where words facts have meanings

FTFY
posted by Talez at 8:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Lol CNN patiently making Eric look like a fool
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


MSNBC just said that Al Gore is going to start campaigning in the next few days.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:11 PM on October 4, 2016


MSNBC's "Truth Squad" says there were no "blatant lies" LOL WUT
posted by acidic at 8:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Didn't Pence sorta look like he was hearing a strange sound at times?

To me, he seemed to be using the "smell the fart" method of facial reactions.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Me: Oh man, I want more food, but I gotta pee too. They're in different directions.

My wife: Just go pee.

M: (heading toward kitchen) Trump says if he's elected I can get more food while I pee.

MW: Just go pee in the bathroom.

M: You're just like Hillary. Regulations! Make America great!
posted by klangklangston at 8:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [38 favorites]


New Republic Mike Pence tried to gaslight the American people about his running mate.
Most remarkably, Pence argued that Trump never held any of the positions or said any of the things that he actually holds and said. Pence lied about Trump’s immigration proposals, his comments about abortion, his tax policy, his feelings toward (and possible business ties to) Russia and Vladimir Putin. And at every opportunity, Pence said that, actually, it was Hillary Clinton who was close to Russia or was the real boor. (It should be no surprise that Trump’s campaign issued a release during the debate alleging that Clinton has close ties to Russia.) Pence’s strategy was to gaslight viewers and to confuse what have been very clear distinctions between the two campaigns.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [62 favorites]


I just have to say at a couple of points I was struck how much Pence physically reacted like George H. W. Bush used to do with that shoulder shaking head bobbing chuckle. Actually he was more Dana Carvey doing Bush, but boy was that a strange flashback, especially since the first time I noticed it they had just brought Regan into the discussion. Apparently it was past-presidents' day or something.
posted by sardonyx at 8:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


MSNBC is already splicing Trump statements with Kaine's reminders of what Trump has said. Can only assume Pence's denials will be added into the next wave.
posted by Lykosidae at 8:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


Eric moves his mouth when he's not talking, like a muscle memory of lapping blood out of a freshly torn-out throat
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [31 favorites]


I think we just saw a debate that wasn't really meant for us. I mean, some of it was, but I can't help but feel the whole point of it was to troll Trump. I think the Clinton team carefully selected topics and language that were guaranteed to get under Trump's reliable thin skin, and now they are going to watch as he has another embarrassing public meltdown, which Clinton will capitalize on in the next debate.

And pushing for Pence to take personal responsibility for Trump was a master stroke, because Trump didn't really want Pence, and this may drive a wedge between them.

VP debates don't usually have much of an effect of the elections, but this one might.
posted by maxsparber at 8:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [41 favorites]


MSNBC just said that Al Gore is going to start campaigning in the next few days.

Whaaa? He was totally absent from the Convention so I figured there was too much bad blood between him and the Clintons or he just was done with politricks. It'll be good to see his bearded mug again.
posted by dis_integration at 8:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


By and by, visit http://thatmexicanthing.com

God damn that digital team is fucking good.
posted by dersins at 8:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [45 favorites]


What positions does Kaine hold that you like, that Clinton doesn't?

Well he was a missionary.
posted by spitbull at 8:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


How are we feeling about Sunday? I am, rather suddenly and unaccountably, afraid that Trump will manage to come across as semi-reasonable.

I mean, I still think this is Clinton's election to lose, but the tiniest upward motion in Trump's poll numbers makes me go "nyarrrgghuugh". (Whereas downward motion makes me feel like I'm in the hospital and they've just opened up the flow of Dilaudid a bit. Like, "ahhhh, yeah that's the good shit".)

We know that Trump will respond to questions with a chunky slaw of untruths and outright nonsense. And the town hall format allows him to do that without challenge from either Clinton or the moderator. Best case (for Trump): his word salad will come across as merely frothy and bland. Worst case: his mouth will get away from him, and he'll either seem unhinged, or say something blatantly horrific (or both). (I think this latter possibility is the big danger for him – a random American will be a far more sympathetic victim than Clinton or a moderator.)

(I hate that substance, truth, and policy have almost zero bearing on the outcomes of these events. Instead, we talk about style, and emotional impressions, and zingers and gaffes, and "likability" – because those are the things that actually matter, in terms of winning or losing votes. And in talking about those things, at the expense of substance and policy, we encourage and validate the narrative that focuses on them.)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


God damn that digital team is fucking good.

I want a behind the scene tell all about these people so bad.
posted by Jalliah at 8:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


WaPo Pence goes far, far beyond Trump on Syria
Asked how a Trump-Pence administration would stop the civil war carnage in Aleppo, Pence said that he, at least, “truly believe(s) that what America ought to do right now is immediately establish safe zones, so that families and children can work out of those areas,” and “work with our partners…[to] make that happen. Provocations by Russia need to be met with American strength.” If Russia “continues to be involved” in airstrikes along with the Syrian government of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, he said, “the United States of America should be prepared to use military force to strike the military forces of the Assad regime” and “prevent this crisis in Aleppo.”

Trump has said very little about Syria’s civil war–and advocated none of the measures Pence outlined. Instead, he has concentrated on the separate fight against the Islamic State in Syria, saying he would “knock the hell out of” the militants, and advocated cooperation with Russia.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


IDK, there are a few unhappy conservatives holding their nose and voting for Trump, and with Pence they can also close their eyes and pretend the ticket is reversed.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Dana Bash just gave Eric a patronizing little wink at the end of his interview, and for the next few minutes she is my favorite journalist in America
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think we just saw a debate that wasn't really meant for us. I mean, some of it was, but I can't help but feel the whole point of it was to troll Trump.

Yeah, as I was watching I was thinking, "I hope the (hopefully) neutral-to-positive marks that Interrupty Kaine gets for this will just encourage Trump to be as tone deaf and provoke-able as he was in the first debate."
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:18 PM on October 4, 2016


Guess where http://ThatMexicanThing.com redirects?... Hillary's donate website!
posted by Tarumba at 8:18 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


And the town hall format allows him to do that without challenge from either Clinton or the moderator.

Not convinced by that. Also, it's scheduled against Giants-Packers.
posted by holgate at 8:19 PM on October 4, 2016


"I am, rather suddenly and unaccountably, afraid that Trump will manage to come across as semi-reasonable."

Trump will spend most of the night trying top Pence's performance. It's going to be very weird.
posted by klarck at 8:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think that the really pivotal thing this debate has shown is that Trumpism is contagious: Pence not only denied the reality of things Trump has said on film, he claimed he didn't speak words Pence himself provably said. So Trump's entire cabinet, and perhaps his entire executive branch, would be the same way: Trump with start all of his trade wars and his Secretary of Labor will say: "I never said Americans should have jobs. And neither did the President."
posted by XMLicious at 8:19 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


Team Hillary's IT shop is pretty next level on pretty much everything. And I'm not comparing that to the shambles that is the RNC and Trump campaign IT operation but to IT shops in general.

They move fast, they have excellent opposition research, their predictive analytics is apparently crazy good.

Trump's organization is completely outclassed.
posted by vuron at 8:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [23 favorites]


Watching Pence's faux disbelief at everything Kaine said about Trump just gave me terrifying Kerry/Bush debate flashbacks.
posted by ckape at 8:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Follow Mina Markham - "Senior Software Engineer / Pantsuit Seamstress" hillaryclinton.com
posted by mrzarquon at 8:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [27 favorites]


Tim Kaine seemed like a good potential president. Mike Pence seemed like a devil's advocate struggling and failing to defend the Antichrist's douchebag cousin. (I may be biased)
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


and they understand cyber
posted by you're a kitty! at 8:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


Can someone shed some light on Pence stopping himself from saying he was also raised Catholic? He was rephrasing his life story on the fly with his family saying grace and moved onto finding Jesus in his freshman year. It looked like he was editing himself from saying the word Catholic.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


God damn that digital team is fucking good.

I want a behind the scene tell all about these people so bad.


We got that last time and it was pretty delicious. I'm betting we see similar this time around.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 8:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


@NickRiccardi Eric Trump denying Russian ties. "If you want want to know if we have assets in Russia, go look to see if our name’s on a building there."

So it is impossible for Trump to have assets in Russia without his name emblazoned on a building? And honestly I'm not worried about whether or not he owns buildings in Russia, I'm worried that he owes Russia money for the buildings that he has here.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [32 favorites]


You joke about this, but I recently re-watched Dune with another MeFi-er, and one of the things that struck me was how Trump's penthouse decor looked a lot like the decadent palace of the failing Corrino Imperial regime.

#failingcorrinoimperialregime

Between this and the God Emperor Trump stuff, I am now pondering a Trump-based Dune. Ivanka is Princess Irulan, natch; Christie is "that floating fat man" the Baron Harkonnen; and clearly the very buff Paul Ryan needs to step into Sting's aluminum jockstrap.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Follow Mina Markham - "Senior Software Engineer / Pantsuit Seamstress" hillaryclinton.com/em>

OMGosh I love her! Thank you.
posted by Jalliah at 8:26 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


> So it is impossible for Trump to have assets in Russia without his name emblazoned on a building? And honestly I'm not worried about whether or not he owns buildings in Russia, I'm worried that he owes Russia money for the buildings that he has here.

This is the point - the question was originally about Russian owning Trump assets, but he answers in a way that changes the premise.

Its a basic shitty douchebag negotiating tactic.

Also doesn't work outside of most lunchrooms or bars.
posted by mrzarquon at 8:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I hate that substance, truth, and policy have almost zero bearing on the outcomes of these events. Instead, we talk about style, and emotional impressions, and zingers and gaffes, and "likability" – because those are the things that actually matter, in terms of winning or losing votes.

It's not true! But it is true that the people who are still undecided, are mostly going to be won over by emotional appeals to their personal hot-button issues, whether via policy soundbite or speaking style.

Those who can be persuaded by logic have already made up their minds--and they are the vast majority of voters. Policy and substance had a great deal to do with who they're voting for. The ones who can't be bothered to sort out the difference between "here's our revamp of current immigration policies" vs "gonna build a wall," can't be sure whether it's better for the economy to raise minimum wage or give tax cuts to billionaires, are using something other than rational comparison of candidate histories and policies to make up their minds. So of course, both campaigns are going to target them with emotional ads and soundbites.

It's not that the C/K campaign doesn't believe in the importance of policies, but they're not going to waste valuable, limited airtime going over them in detail; they have a website for that. Instead, they're going to use airtime to say "we have a policy and Trump doesn't, and also, he's vicious to people that you care about."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Never has Pantsuit Seamstress looked so good on a resume.
posted by instamatic at 8:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


It looked like he was editing himself from saying the word Catholic.

Well, much of the GOP's religious right base is evangelical, and American evangelicals have had some rather complicated feels toward Catholics over the years. I don't know if this is as relevant as it was back when JFK was running, but when you're down as far in the polls as Trump/Pence are, you probably want to avoid that kind of downside risk.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


Has the term "reality politics" been coined yet?
posted by valkane at 8:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Cuz i got dibs.
posted by valkane at 8:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I went to look at thatmexicanthing.com and gave $10. Those guys are good.
posted by wintermind at 8:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"...Smallest navy..."

Which means...fewer ships...

...Which requires smaller "all hands on deck" drills.

Smaller
hands
SMALL HANDS
posted by wenestvedt at 8:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


That smallest navy thing... It's a total lie, right?
posted by Yowser at 8:32 PM on October 4, 2016


Can someone shed some light on Pence stopping himself from saying he was also raised Catholic? He was rephrasing his life story on the fly with his family saying grace and moved onto finding Jesus in his freshman year. It looked like he was editing himself from saying the word Catholic.

Evangelicals (his base) don't tend to like us THOSE PAPISTS much. And frankly I think Catholics find it odd that someone raised Catholic would cross over to Evangelical...it feels odd and culture-clashy somehow.
posted by sallybrown at 8:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


If Trump could string a coherent sentence together, he would have already said "the era of reality politics is over."
posted by zachlipton at 8:32 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]




LOL on MSNBC pundit saying that Kaine was too aggressive for a campaign "with this much of a lead."
posted by klangklangston at 8:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Follow Mina Markham - "Senior Software Engineer / Pantsuit Seamstress" hillaryclinton.com

Hey, it's Jess.
posted by dersins at 8:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


The small navy thing is just moronic

One modern missile cruiser could wipe out a fleet of big gun ships

One submarine can incinerate a mid-sized nation

It's just...so stupid
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Didn't Obama nail the "smallest navy in 100 years" line from Romney by saying something like "yeah, we have fewer horses too"... as I recall?
posted by spitbull at 8:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [55 favorites]


More Dana Bash tonight: She repeatedly asks Eric if Trump has paid federal income taxes and he says YES and then quickly YESWEHAVEPAIDTAXESASACOMPANY. Over and over and over.
posted by mochapickle at 8:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


The pervasiveness of the "smallest navy" meme, the idea that modern aircraft carriers should be compared apples-to-apples with First-World-War frigates, is the simplest and most unambiguous proof of the bovine excremental nature of modern conservatism
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [34 favorites]


Note the full Matthew 12:34 quote, of which Kaine quoted only the latter half:

"You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks."

YOU ARE EVIL.
posted by sallybrown at 8:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [132 favorites]


After watching that, and sitting here quietly, I'm becoming more and more annoyed and angry about the thing I just watched. Not necessarily because of the three people involved, but more about the fuckheads at the Commission on Presidential Debates. I'm not old enough to have witnessed any debates before they took over, so my thoughts may be old news. I can't even get them written out in a coherent manner. It suffices to say that I feel that these events are just a spectacle put on by both parties (via the CPD) for some reason. Is it maybe to make voters feel like the candidates are actually trying to change the voters' opinions? Or is it just kibble for the media? If the questions only seem to target the differences between the candidates, resulting in talking points or other oft-heard responses, how can these things be effective? It doesn't help that the participants have the same fucking behaviors in all of the slightly different formats in every fucking cycle. Nor does it help the "moderators" are hamstrung by stupid fucking rules and their scripts. FFS, if this is going to be politics entertainment (cf WWE/sports entertainment) make it interesting! Get different type of moderators in there! How about judges, other politicians, sporting officials, even actors who've played judges or politicians or sporting officials?! Argh, I just don't get it. I think they're an embarrassment.

I suppose this is what happens when you watch without alcohol. Won't make that mistake ever again.
posted by bonje at 8:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


#ThatMexicanThing is kind of awesome right now.
posted by dersins at 8:37 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


"Evangelicals (his base) don't tend to like us THOSE PAPISTS much. And frankly I think Catholics find it odd that someone raised Catholic would cross over to Evangelical...it feels odd and culture-clashy somehow.

I went to high school with an evangelical Catholic (they exist; also Charismatic) and her family was deeply weird. Both Catholics and evangelicals think that evangelical Catholics are useful for their money and voting bloc, but think they're at least unorthodox and maybe heretical.
posted by klangklangston at 8:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's just...so stupid

It's a dogwhistle to the military complex that the money train is still a-chugging.
posted by valkane at 8:38 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


CNN poll of debate watchers, slightly Dem-leaning:

48% Pence won
42% Kaine

Did Kaine do better or worse than expected?
38% better
43% worse

Pence?
67% better
14% worse
posted by Rhaomi at 8:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94: The Clinton site is hawking this perfect depiction of Tim Kaine's eyebrows

The smiley with the eyebrow has been part of Tim Kaine's branding for a while.
posted by emelenjr at 8:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Mashable has a roundup of the the reaction on social media to "that Mexican thing"
posted by humanfont at 8:39 PM on October 4, 2016


"Not necessarily because of the three people involved, but more about the fuckheads at the Commission on Presidential Debates."

Yeah, they need timed mics. Give each exactly equal time based on the slap of a chess clock and cut the opposition mic during right-of-way. Time ends, mic ends, make your point.

But getting the parties to agree to that prior to knowing who their nominees would be? Not likely.
posted by klangklangston at 8:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


>
Didn't Obama nail the "smallest navy in 100 years" line from Romney by saying something like "yeah, we have fewer horses too"... as I recall?


We have fewer horses and bayonets
posted by mrzarquon at 8:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


What positions does Kaine hold that you like, that Clinton doesn't?
Someone else said it more coarsely, but I can't resist: "He pees standing up."
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]




Oh, wow,there's actually a Jess! I had convinced myself that Jess and Meredith were roommates.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


I suppose this is what happens when you watch without alcohol.

I decided it would be a good idea to quit drinking for the year. Seriously, this is the year I picked. Go ahead, make your Airplane! jokes.

*sobs*
posted by lalex at 8:40 PM on October 4, 2016 [29 favorites]


That smallest navy thing... It's a total lie, right?

Not strictly by the number of ships. However, by far the greatest measure of modern naval power is the number and capability of aircraft carriers and submarines. By that standard the US so far outclasses the rest of the world it's ridiculous.
posted by jedicus at 8:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


> Note the full Matthew 12:34 quote, of which Kaine quoted only the latter half:

"You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks."


That is some christian shade right there.
posted by mrzarquon at 8:41 PM on October 4, 2016 [71 favorites]




That was some serious gaslighting from Pence. "Mr. Trump didn't say that," like butter wouldn't melt in his mouth.

I felt like screaming, "There! Are! Four! Lights!"
posted by Salieri at 8:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [39 favorites]


Note the full Matthew 12:34 quote, of which Kaine quoted only the latter half:

"You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks."

YOU ARE EVIL.
posted by sallybrown at 11:36 PM on 10/4
Wait...is this...is this a dog whistle? I almost don't know what they look like on this side of the fence.

Me: doing a little happy atheists-for-Kaine wiggle dance over here
posted by instamatic at 8:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [28 favorites]


We're also spending a record low on archers and cavaliers. If they'd just train a few hundred thousand more archers, we could have the force projection range of a Ticonderoga class cruiser during refitting.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


not just that Pence did better, but that Pence did better because he refused to defend Trump. Because he's like sooooooooo embarrassed by Trump omg guys let's ditch him in Claire's and go to the food court so he can't find usssss
posted by sallybrown at 8:44 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


> We have fewer horses and bayonets

Gotta follow up with Obama's next bit "we have these things called aircraft carriers where planes land on them."

I'm gonna be super excited to see what roles he takes on in his post presidency position (hopefully with Hillary in office).
posted by mrzarquon at 8:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


ProBirdRights was on a tear:
Step aside "The Donald Duck" I'M live tweet this debate
I GOING TALK OVER YOUR QUESTION I ASSUME IT ABOUT HOW I GOT SO HANDSOME THANK YOU ELAINE GOOD QUESTION
i amire putin and how he gets to be king and how he can ban all cats that doent mean I pro putin (PS CALL ME PUTIN @ 1-800-BIRB)
beaking news bird win debate you can stop watching now I the winner me it over bye
posted by Lexica at 8:45 PM on October 4, 2016 [16 favorites]


I'd spend more on archers. Fuck your cavaliers.
posted by valkane at 8:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


> Wait...is this...is this a dog whistle? I almost don't know what they look like on this side of the fence.


In a conversation about faith, quoting scripture isn't really a dog whistle, it is a requirement for the conversation. Pence quoted Jeremiah.
posted by mrzarquon at 8:46 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


#failingcorrinoimperialregime

Between this and the God Emperor Trump stuff, I am now pondering a Trump-based Dune. Ivanka is Princess Irulan, natch; Christie is "that floating fat man" the Baron Harkonnen; and clearly the very buff Paul Ryan needs to step into Sting's aluminum jockstrap.


And Peter Thiel is Leto II Atreides. Both of them were horrible accelerationists.
posted by qcubed at 8:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


The smallest Navy thing could very well play well with the Navy. Not for the obvious "Navy, fuck yeah" reason, but because everyone in the Navy can agree that OPTEMPO these days is miserable on the sailors. 9-month carrier group deployments are routine, double-digits not unheard of. There are more submarine missions than submarines - the guys go to sea, spend an increasingly short time on long days of patching up the aging boat and then right back out. Training? Er, yeah, wedge that in too. People are quitting just to be able to see their families on a regular basis. It's also beating up the ships, deferring and deferring upkeep. How many of the carriers are at sea? That's because they're in the shop again.

So, fewer missions (good luck with that) or more ships. Two ways to make sailors happier.
posted by ctmf at 8:48 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


Love to hear Pence say how he's going to pay for all the new navy toys.

Except only Democrats have to pay for anything because IOKIYAR
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'd spend more on archers. Fuck your cavaliers.

Just as long as you stay away from high-tech lure of the crossbow - those Genoese are screwed if it rains.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:51 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


I warned you really early on about Kaine. Hillary needed a fire-breather, and she got a guy who teaches welding. Polls will be interesting to watch, and by interesting, I mean stock up now on anti-anx medicine.

Fortunately, the real muscle behind the Dem campaign has two more debates with which to maul the GOP Chosen One.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I warned you really early on about Kaine. Hillary needed a fire-breather,

She didn't, though.

Still doesn't.
posted by dersins at 8:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [44 favorites]


You wanna see real muscle? C'mon down here in the welding tanks!
posted by valkane at 8:54 PM on October 4, 2016


I warned you really early on about Kaine. Hillary needed a fire-breather, and she got a guy who teaches welding. Polls will be interesting to watch, and by interesting, I mean stock up now on anti-anx medicine.


Why did she need a fire breather? She's not tough enough on her own?
posted by zutalors! at 8:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


I went to high school with an evangelical Catholic (they exist; also Charismatic) and her family was deeply weird.

Yeah, I got exposed to charismatic Catholicism at the age where it latches most easily and I made sure it didn't latch. I'd still call myself a social justice Catholic just without the theological belief stuff.

Anyway, the big Catholic thing is 'whited sephulchres' (Matthew 23:27). That kind of hypocrisy really doesn't go down well.
posted by holgate at 8:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


You're not just that mexican thing to me 🌮❤️
posted by klangklangston at 8:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


I wish things had stayed more personal. That's where Kaine is strongest and Pence has a lot of weakness, and the exchange at the very end of the debate highlighted that. I don't in any way think there's anything wrong with being prepared for the debate, I think that's what the job requires, but perhaps a touch more of Kaine-the-welding-teacher would have been nice over Kaine-the-guy-with-five-bullet-points.
posted by zachlipton at 8:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


"She's not tough enough on her own?"

She's tough, but only Kaine could say "fuck off, your Republican FBI director couldn't make a case, and said so."
posted by klarck at 8:56 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence won the battle (maybe) but lost the media war tomorrow and the rest of the week trying to gaslight. Kaine was fine, his script was clearly to attack Trump constantly. That was a decision from the campaign I'm sure, so Hilary was on board.

Also the VP debate is not going to move the overall needle at all, except to the extent it goads Trump into flying off the handle again.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:58 PM on October 4, 2016 [13 favorites]


"Why did she need a fire breather? She's not tough enough on her own?"

Veeps are traditionally the attack dogs — stemming all the way back to when it was unseemly to actually campaign for yourself for president — but you have a point in that Trump is really into disrupting performative political norms. He's like Uber for democracy!
posted by klangklangston at 9:00 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Why did she need a fire breather? She's not tough enough on her own?

Oh for fucking real? Biden owned two veep debates in a row standing on his head, and that had nooooothing to do with Obama slamming it home to seal the deal? Especially after Obama blew the first debate vs. Romney, and Diamond Joe was right there to mock Ryan all the way back to the House next debate up?

Don't get me wrong. Obama is about as bad-ass a President as you can hope for, but from time to time, even he needs a little help.

I will not hang out in anyone's cognitive bubble and/or echo chamber, sorry.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


I.e. Soon it will all be replaced with robots!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:04 PM on October 4, 2016


AirBnBS
posted by spitbull at 9:04 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


There is nothing to be gained in trying to say anything new on email. It doesn't bring anyone new to the set of Hillary voters; it just makes us feel good. Don't worry about it. This debate will have very little impact on the election.
posted by humanfont at 9:05 PM on October 4, 2016


Yeah I mean HRC is basically being asked to save the free world essentially on her own and she's doing it very capably.

Biden did have a certain style but Kaine is great for the job of VP, presiding over the Senate, which he is already a part of, and attending State functions, and being a younger vigorous guy should anything happen to HRC.
posted by zutalors! at 9:05 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


The veep debate never moves the polls. Not even '88, when Lloyd Benson pwned that pipsqueak Dan Quayle.
posted by chrchr at 9:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]



I will not hang out in anyone's cognitive bubble and/or echo chamber, sorry.


Not sure how any of that was an answer to my question. Obama/Biden have a certain dynamic, but that's not the template for all campaigns ever, sorry.

Also I disagree with your "Biden won the VP debate to save Obama" view. It was a good bump but Obama closed it in Debate 2 on his own.
posted by zutalors! at 9:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yes and we all remember Al Gore that raging Firebrand with a tongue like a steel bullwhip. Oh and Dan Quale "the Anglo Ax Murderer".

lol nah Vps don't matter y'all.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


She's winning Virginia by 7-9 points.

Kaine could play his harmonica in the debate and still have done his job.
posted by spitbull at 9:08 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mike Pence is the literal worst. But also he's gone directly up against the Archdiocese of Indianapolis and the Diocese of Fort Wayne/South Bend, primarily over refugees, and has not come out terribly well. He's also staged weird signing ceremonies of offensive bills where he rounds up various faith groups' weirdos and presents them as representative, which has raised a lot of hackles.

Politicians in Indiana have to appeal to Catholics in the north and evangelicals in the south and Pence has failed at the former. He's unusual for a pro-life politician in how very many Catholic organizations have explicitly refused to endorse him over the years.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [35 favorites]


That 88 debate is a great example. If anything the victory made Benson look much more presidential than Dukakis. Very similar to tonight. Hmmm.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:10 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Biden did have a certain style but Kaine is great for the job of VP

His job was to make a mockery of Pence and Trump while clearly stating the case for Clinton. Today and now, that was his job. How'd he do at it?

Oh god, I hope I am wrong, but the polls will not be good for at least until the next Prez debate.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:10 PM on October 4, 2016


Kaine: (truthful statement)

Pence: (shakes head) (lie)

Kaine: (Impassioned statement)

Pence: (changes subject)

Kaine: (changes subject yet again, makes truthful statement)

Pence: (shakes head) (lie) (refutes truth) (thinks about how much he looks like doc savage)

Kaine: (tries to stick to script, keeps stepping on own feet)

Pence: (ya know, doc savage was pretty cool. And women can't be trusted with baby matters. I'm pretty cool. That woman isn't)

Kaine: DEFEND YOUR RUNNING MATE

Pence: (2020, maybe.)
posted by valkane at 9:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


omg the fucking psychodrama.

@JohnJHarwood: "Trump adviser on debate after Pence passed up opportunities to defend him: "Pence won overall, but lost with Trump""
posted by lalex at 9:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [35 favorites]


The next prez debate is in 5 days and the news cycle is going to be dominated by continued news of Trump's scandals plus coverage, with clips, of every time Pence lied in the debate about Trump's positions.

I'm sorry, but I think you're talking utter nonsense.
posted by palomar at 9:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [22 favorites]


In a conversation about faith, quoting scripture isn't really a dog whistle, it is a requirement for the conversation. Pence quoted Jeremiah.
Ha. No, I didn't mean that he quoted scripture. I meant that he very specifically quoted the second half of this *particular* verse. Carefully leaving the "viper" part unsaid. Leaving the obvious interpretation to the careful listener. Or, if you prefer, "first rate Christian shade" as someone posted upthread.
posted by instamatic at 9:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


People are saying Pence won because a) he's being graded on Trump's curve and b) lying about literally everything Trump said isn't being counted against his score. That said, once every commentator makes their perfunctory acknowledgement that Pence won because he didn't shit himself and cry and start hitting himself, the only topic for them to dig into is all the stuff he nakedly lied about.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kaine could play his harmonica in the debate and still have done his job.

Pence goes into his denial song and dance, Kaine pulls out harmonica and starts blowing the blues.

Instant win.
posted by mikelieman at 9:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


If the media that comes out of this is Pence won and some of that media talks about why Pence did better than Trump this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

This will make Donald mad. Mad Donald is good because he says and does stupid things. If he feels that he needs to prove something he's more liable to screw up.

I dunno. Maybe he'll change and praise Pence and be all happy. Who know with this guy.
posted by Jalliah at 9:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


The point many Dems are hammering now is that Pence didn't defend Trump's words, actions or campaign. Pence invented new policy positions on Russia, Syria, NATO and elsewhere that are opposite those of Trump.
posted by humanfont at 9:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [18 favorites]


Actually, I'm afraid that the debate will be overshadowed by Hurricane Matthew running up the East Coast.
posted by DanSachs at 9:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


The conventional wisdom is being formed and it does NOT look good for Team Trump.

NYT: Mr. Kaine challenged Mr. Pence repeatedly to defend statements or proposals made by Donald J. Trump during his chaotic and improvisational presidential campaign, forcing Mr. Pence to filibuster and dodge for minutes on end.

TPM: Kaine himself didn't always come off as well as I might have expected. But he did great for his running mate, sometimes by defending her in ways that are difficult for her to do herself but far more often by reading out crate loads of opposition research on Trump and simply reminding people of all the stuff he's said. ... Pence, on the other hand, came off fairly well in the Kaine v Pence debate. ... But he left his running mate all but undefended. ... He tossed out some obligatory denials, shook his head wearily and that was about it.

Basically, Kaine did his job to the hilt, and Pence looked good by not doing his job.

(Even more deliciously, Pence looking good will probably drive Trump to some new height of rage tweeting, unless they've taken away his phone and changed his Twitter password or something.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:16 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


Kaine more or less followed the shape of his DNC speech, which was press a little too hard early, and then settle into the event as it progressed. He also had the harder task, relative to Pence, which is Clinton-Kaine is running a status quo campaign, and Trump-Pence is running a change campaign. That puts Kaine on the wrong foot from the get go, and you could see him trying to put Pence on his wrong foot with all the insistence on Pence defending Trump's inanity. But not very elegantly, and it didn't really take.

Tough night for Kaine. Easy night for Pence (Gosh, but he's slimy and slippery!). Keep on keeping on.
posted by notyou at 9:17 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine: how do you live with yourself?

Pence: i just lie.
posted by valkane at 9:20 PM on October 4, 2016 [21 favorites]


Actually, I'm afraid that the debate will be overshadowed by Hurricane Matthew running up the East Coast.

Time is the thing that losing presidential candidates can't afford to give away. If Matthew's impact on the lower east coast stalls the campaign in general, it doesn't help Trump.

It still seems like "Kaine helped Clinton, Pence helped Pence" is the general takeaway, and that doesn't massively help Trump either.
posted by holgate at 9:22 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


"We're also spending a record low on archers and cavaliers. If they'd just train a few hundred thousand more archers, we could have the force projection range of a Ticonderoga class cruiser during refitting."

Trump/Pence: A Return to Slave Galleys

"Yeah I mean HRC is basically being asked to save the free world essentially on her own and she's doing it very capably. "

I have very serious concerns about HRC's ability to be president and fight crime as Batman.
posted by klangklangston at 9:23 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


I have very serious concerns about HRC's ability to be president and fight crime as Batman.

Batperson.
posted by dersins at 9:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [41 favorites]


For those fond of throwback longforms, I read this GREAT piece today from 1992: "What Hillary Wants," by Gail Sheehy in Vanity Fair. It is filled with bittersweet, uncanny tidbits (including the best explanation of the Clinton marriage and Bill's early infidelities I've ever read) as well as a number of different people mentioning that Hillary could be the first woman president.
posted by sallybrown at 9:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


I have very serious concerns about HRC's ability to be president and fight crime as Batman.

That's why she has Kaine. He can be Batman Dad.
posted by Jalliah at 9:25 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]




Please lord no more "What nerdy thing can we compare this election to" stories Cap'n the engine cannae take nae more of this!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [9 favorites]


Ahem: Jennifer Palmieri of the Clinton campaign on Twitter: "Can confirm that @HillaryClinton is really proud of @timkaine!"
posted by sallybrown at 9:30 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


"That's why she has Kaine. He can be Batman Dad."
Cain is one of the world's premier assassins, whose victims have included some of the most famous and powerful people on the planet. He trained the young Bruce Wayne with some of the skills that he would use as Batman, although Bruce has never used such techniques and has since surpassed Cain in ability. Regarding his training, Batman explained, "Knowing how to kill doesn't mean you must kill."
posted by klangklangston at 9:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pence did a good job of convincing my coworkers to vote for trump and still feel like they have an excuse to think of themselves as reasonable human beings . But they were gonna vote for trump regardless.

On the other hand, I think kaine scored some points (awkward points but points nonetheless) with people who might possibly be actually on the fence.
posted by ian1977 at 9:31 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


"If the media that comes out of this is Pence won and some of that media talks about why Pence did better than Trump this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

This will make Donald mad. Mad Donald is good because he says and does stupid things."


Oh please please please let this happen. Please let Trump get jealous of Pence. I'm hoping Kellyanne says something like, "See Donald? That's what a good debater looks like. You could learn a lot from Mike."
posted by Euphorbia at 9:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


small navy

I know! We've only got one three-masted frigate left and don't even get me started on dreadnaughts!
posted by ckape at 9:33 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]


"Pence did a good job of convincing my coworkers to vote for trump and still feel like they have an excuse to think of themselves as reasonable human beings . But they were gonna vote for trump regardless. "

Yeah, but nobody thought Hitler was an asshole when they voted for him.
posted by klangklangston at 9:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine's job was to generate post-debate media about Trump where Pence serves as the feed and Trump as the punchline. Again: he took one for the team.
posted by holgate at 9:34 PM on October 4, 2016 [12 favorites]


As far as I know we still have the biggest navy in the world, and the biggest military, even if it's arguably smaller than it was at the height of World War 2.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 9:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


We had bigger phones in 1916 too.
posted by middlethird at 9:36 PM on October 4, 2016 [10 favorites]




As far as I know we still have the biggest navy in the world

Carrier battle groups: the US has many, the rest of the world combined has "less than many".
posted by holgate at 9:42 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


After watching the hot takes it seems like Tim Kaine did no harm overall and might have helped a bit with women and Latinxs on reproductive choice and immigration. That's all I really need from a veep debate I suppose. I wanted Kaine to do better--his speeches are much more relatable and follow logically without constant sprinkles of non sequiturs.
posted by xyzzy at 9:43 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


One point I wish Kaine had been able to wedge in, when he brought up Trump's "Mount Rushmore" of Putin,
Kim Jong-Un, Gadhafi, and Saddam Hussein, is that the one guy in North Korea of whom Trump says he's "got to give him credit" isn't any of the Christians who have died for practicing their religion or anyone else who has given their lives defying a totalitarian state, but rather is the most powerful guy in the country who was handed the position by his father and grandfather who for generations killed anyone who would not worship them as living gods.

And the credit he feels compelled to bestow is admiration for how Kim, from that position of inherited ultimate power within the country, successfully murdered a bunch of his underlings.
posted by XMLicious at 9:47 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


Was Kaine doing an extended impression of coked up Trump for like half an hour and then realised it wasn't working and pivoted?
posted by ethansr at 9:49 PM on October 4, 2016


Facebook is already littered with Politico, Washington Post, etc posts saying "Fact Check: Pence was incorrect about [X]" on a wide range of different subjects (who committed the Paris terrorist attacks, how Pence characterized the AP report on the Clinton Foundation, whether he called Putin a stronger leader than Obama). I predict the narrative of this debate will change overnight from "Pence was smooth" to "Pence lied."
posted by sallybrown at 9:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [11 favorites]


> Kaine is rather like Hubert H. Humphry, Pence is a lot like Lloyd Benson. He looks a lot an older Putin.

Speaking of Humphrey, here are a couple of good pieces to show to any still undecided former Bernie supporters:

The lousy reason I didn't vote in 1968 — and why Sanders supporters shouldn't fall for it. I thought there was no difference between Richard Nixon and Hubert Humphrey. I was wrong.

3 Reasons to Vote for Hillary Clinton That Have Nothing To Do with Hillary Clinton: We can't ignore the ways that having a Democrat in the White House matters.
posted by homunculus at 9:52 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


Sure, compared to Trump, Pence looked able...

(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)

...but able doesn't beat Kaine.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [98 favorites]


The US is the only rank 1 blue-water navy: capable of multiple and sustained power projection missions globally. The problem really isn't "not enough ships", it's overuse of the ones we have.
posted by ctmf at 9:54 PM on October 4, 2016 [7 favorites]


cf. Todd-Lindberg classification system
posted by ctmf at 9:55 PM on October 4, 2016


The other somewhat Catholic point is that "you denied me three times" is definitely a thing, and Pence was denying Trump all kinds of times.
posted by holgate at 9:55 PM on October 4, 2016 [22 favorites]


I predict the narrative of this debate will change overnight from "Pence was smooth" to "Pence lied."

I sure as hell hope so. During the first 2012 debate I was laughing out loud at the stuff Romney was having to make up to be able to respond to Obama smoothly and aggressively, but then no one in the media, or even here for the most part, seemed to consider it material. But the media seems much more into the fact-checking this time, and primed to be vigilant thanks to Trump, so here's crossing my fingers...
posted by XMLicious at 9:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


If only someone had smuggled a rooster into the auditorium.
posted by ckape at 9:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


My dream scenario is that Trump hears cable news repeat the theme about "Pence was out there for Pence" and decides he's been betrayed.
posted by you're a kitty! at 9:59 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


The other somewhat Catholic point is that "you denied me three times" is definitely a thing, and Pence was denying Trump all kinds of times.

Kaine: "Six times tonight I have said to Governor Pence, I can’t imagine how you can defend your running mate’s position on one issue after the next, and in all six cases he’s refused to defend his running mate."
posted by sallybrown at 10:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [29 favorites]


I was going through the 538 debate liveblog and wow is this depressing:

It has been 425 days since the first debate of the 2016 election.
posted by ckape at 10:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [14 favorites]


I was really uncomfortable watching this debate. I think while Kaine's performance didn't live up to my expectations, my expectations don't really matter to the Clinton campaign, I'm already on board. I expected him to go after Pence's own record more, but by constantly having Pence fail to defend what Trump has said, or to lie about what Pence himself has said get's you a lot of clips showing what a liar Pence is and how Trump is indefensible. I'm also loving all the spin about how Trump's ego will be hurt by Pence doing a better job.

I do wish Pence's homophobia had been taken to task, it's reprehensible.
posted by airish at 10:07 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


I know I'm late to this but the Pence 'we need a broad shouldered man' thing is just gross and sexist

Chicago is the "City of the Big Shoulders." Chicago. Where Hillary Clinton is from. Maybe it's a secret endorsement?
posted by kirkaracha at 10:09 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Bookmark and thinking about needling Donald via Twitter about how much better Pence was at debating and how Pence showed such disloyalty by not defending his running mate.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:11 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


We had bigger phones in 1916 too

We also had Henry Ford spouting flim-flam and running for office without anyone asking him a year and half later, on May Day, 1918. The senate seat was to be filled for a year and he would run for president.
Ford was put to the small battery of basics concerning the geopolitical topics of the day.

Like a game, the Catonian moralists could hardly resist.
posted by clavdivs at 10:11 PM on October 4, 2016


My dream scenario is that Trump hears cable news repeat the theme about "Pence was out there for Pence" and decides he's been betrayed


god help me I have the same dream.
Thinking of staying up long enough to hear what Trump's Id has to say at 3AM.
If Trump's Id flamed Pence I'd have the best night's sleep since just after the democratic convention.
posted by Euphorbia at 10:11 PM on October 4, 2016


A number of people, including Megyn Kelly, are mixing up former Clinton speechwriter (and hilarious Tweeter) Jon Lovett with hilarious comedian Jon Lovitz.
posted by sallybrown at 10:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [15 favorites]


The other somewhat Catholic point is that "you denied me three times" is definitely a thing, and Pence was denying Trump all kinds of times.

Kaine: "Six times tonight I have said to Governor Pence, I can’t imagine how you can defend your running mate’s position on one issue after the next, and in all six cases he’s refused to defend his running mate."


And upon the Rock of Pence Trump will build his Church...
posted by qcubed at 10:13 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Just stumbled across this at the bottom of the Wikipedia article United States vice-presidential debate, 2008:
Say it Ain't So, Joe, opera composed by Curtis K. Hughes based on the vice-presidential debates.
posted by XMLicious at 10:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Kaine: "Six times tonight I have said to Governor Pence, I can’t imagine how you can defend"

Sing a song of sixpence
Pocket full of lies
posted by clavdivs at 10:14 PM on October 4, 2016 [20 favorites]


Then they seized him and led him away, bringing him into the high pundit's table, and Pence was following at a distance. And when they had kindled a fire in the middle of the courtyard and sat down together, Pence sat down among them. Then a press pool reporter, seeing him as he sat in the light and looking closely at him, said, “This man also was with him.” But he denied it, saying, “Little Katy, I do not know him.” And a little later someone else saw him and said, “You also are one of them.” But Pence said, “Crooked Hillary, I am not.” And after an interval of about an hour still another insisted, saying, “Certainly this man also was with him, for he too is orange.” But Pence said, “Kaine, I do not know what you are talking about.” And immediately, while he was still speaking, the rooster crowed. And the Trump turned and looked at Pence. And Pence remembered the saying of the Trump, how he had said to him, “Before the rooster crows today, you will deny me - like a dog - three times.” And he went out and wept bitterly.
posted by sallybrown at 10:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [80 favorites]


And if Russia chooses to be involved and continue, I should say, to be involved in this barbaric attack on Aleppo, the United States of America should use military force to strike the targets of the Assad regime, and prevent Aleppo.

Telling them our plans? I don't think General Douglas MacArthur would like that too much!
posted by kirkaracha at 10:21 PM on October 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


A number of people, including Megyn Kelly, are mixing up former Clinton speechwriter (and hilarious Tweeter) Jon Lovett with hilarious comedian Jon Lovitz.

The ratings would be so much better for these things if they featured the stinging blades of the windmill.
posted by zachlipton at 10:24 PM on October 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Please notice, also, that none of the takes on this debate are about it being bad for Clinton: Pence's attempts to attack her were not memorable and did not gain any narrative traction.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:27 PM on October 4, 2016 [17 favorites]


David Perry:
I wrote this before Pence was a VP candidate. Stand by it. Pence wants to use "the vulnerable" to attack women's rights.
posted by Lexica at 10:39 PM on October 4, 2016 [8 favorites]


Mike Pence is literally the worst governor of Indiana ever and I include in that assessment Ninian Edwards who governed it as a territory and sent the US Army to burn Peoria to the ground in a fit of pique when he couldn't capture Shawnee war leader Tecumseh in 1812-13 and Congress was like pretty pissed off about it and the resulting litigation lasted until the 1980s.

Well, all right, Pence is second-worst, but only until someone gives Pence the power to turn the US Army against US citizens, then he's clearly going Ninian Edwards all up in this shit IN ADDITION TO radically mismanaging the state.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:53 PM on October 4, 2016 [35 favorites]


You think Trump is watching this, or even cares about the outcome? He's live tweeting it. You think Trump is watching this, or even cares about the outcome? He's live tweeting it. Knock, Knock. Who's there ? Philip Glass. Philip Glass Who ? Knock, Knock. Android or Iphone, Lovett or Lovitz...
posted by y2karl at 11:01 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


In the midst of all the sudden-flip-flop sabre rattling against Russia, when "the cyber" was under discussion, Pence talked about "asymmetrical enemies". This wouldn't be a reference to Russia, the "asymmetrical" part refers to an opponent who is not a nation-state. The mysterious 400 pound man reappears.

(Or maybe this time Trump is imagining a lone wolf hacker whose distinguishing feature is very large hands, and his own hands being dwarfed by those of the enemy is the asymmetry he's thinking about.)
posted by XMLicious at 11:10 PM on October 4, 2016


It looks and sounds like some weird deleted scene from the Watchmen movie; I can't imagine either of these guys as a potential POTUS; they both have the same low tone monotone voice, one has a tinge of whine; the other has some unitelligible baritone to his. An hour and a half of my life; to be remembered for having all the content of a can of air.
posted by buzzman at 11:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Apparently dreams are coming true. The same source that said Pence lost with Trump also stated that Trump can't stand to be upstaged. Pence made a pretty strategic move here, betting that in four years he can just tell people throwing Trump in his face that he didn't defend him, only signing onto the ticket as a sane and moderating force for the sake of the country. You watch, it will be Saint Pence, savior of the GOP, in 2020.
posted by xyzzy at 11:12 PM on October 4, 2016 [5 favorites]


"only signing onto the ticket as a sane and moderating force for the sake of the country"

I know that's the play Pence is trying to make, but he's going to be best known for being Trump's running mate and second best known for his catastrophic RFRA that made national headlines painting him as an anti-LGBT bigot (which he is) and badly damaged his relationships with the business community and with Indiana donors. Then he reversed himself under intense national pressure, infuriating his evangelical base. Then, wildly unpopular and facing a loss in what ought to have been an easy GOP gubernatorial race in Indiana, he bailed the fuck out to campaign with Trump. He has no national or state platform once this campaign is over and has burned all possible bridges. (Not to mention his economic record in Indiana is just abysmal and under him it has hemorrhaged jobs.)

Although if the GOP wants to run in 2020 or 2024 a dude whose signature achievement is fighting gay marriage for 20 minutes before collapsing like a Trump casino ... uh, good luck with that, I guess?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:29 PM on October 4, 2016 [30 favorites]


And upon the Rock of Pence Trump will build his Church...

Weren't we just saying in the other thread that Trump buys his concrete from the mob? I get that Trump is unhappy Pence wouldn't defend him, but we're not talking about Pence being a literal part of the foundation, are we...?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:35 PM on October 4, 2016 [6 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: CLINTON’S CLOSE TIES TO PUTIN DESERVE SCRUTINY
posted by kirkaracha at 11:50 PM on October 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wait, did Pence actually tweet "weakness arouses evil"

What the actual fuck.
posted by mrzarquon at 12:06 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


What positions does Kaine hold that you like, that Clinton doesn't?

I like Clinton. I would vote for her regardless. But I think the margin for Kaine at this point would be higher against Trump, and that's a deal-breaker.
The margin of Kaine vs Pence... I don't know.
The rumors up thread about Trump delegating his duties (all or in part) to the vice president are troubling. Pence didn't run for president, he shouldn't have the job.
posted by TrishaU at 12:10 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


...The thing is, this ramshackle campaign, following a ramshackle business career, has exposed his flaws and failures to the world and, more importantly, to the people he will brush up against for the rest of his life. To them he is now officially a joke. I suspect he knows this. And if his thin skin on minor matters is any indication, he will be lashing out with even more vitriol. He is a mad jumble of a man, with a slapdash of a campaign and talking points dredged from the dark corners at the bottom of the Internet. I don’t think he will get to the White House, but just the fact that his carny act has gotten so far along the road will leave the path with a permanent orange stain. Trump, more than even the most craven politicians or entertainers, is a bottomless reservoir of need and desire for attention. He lives off crowd approval. And at a certain point that will dim, as it always does to people like him, and the cameras will turn to some other American novelty. When that attention wanes, he will be left with his press clippings, his dyed hair, his fake tan, and those tiny, tiny fingers.
DONALD TRUMP: THE UGLY AMERICAN*
*(With apologies to William J. Lederer and Eugene Burdick.)

posted by y2karl at 12:13 AM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]




Huffington post now: Mike Pence To America: Trump Never Said Those Things He Said

The Onion last year: Indiana Governor Insists New Law Has Nothing To Do With Thing It Explicitly Intended To Do
posted by ckape at 12:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [34 favorites]


Although if the GOP wants to run in 2020 or 2024 a dude whose signature achievement is fighting gay marriage for 20 minutes before collapsing like a Trump casino ... uh, good luck with that, I guess?
I think the success of this strategy will greatly depend on what lessons, if any, the GOP takes away from this election's post mortem. After the demographic problems revealed in 2008 and 2012 it seemed like Republicans were willing to become more measured in their approach to social issues in order to appear like they've arrived in this century intellectually if not yet in spirit. Then all of that hard work got thrown away with the crazy field of crazy candidates. But I am very concerned about the GOP, even as a democrat, because I feel like I can't depend on them to be somewhat reasonable and then follow through. I do not want Pence to represent the future of the GOP. At all. But against Trump he seems normal or even acceptable despite his hard right social Conservatism and despicable record.
posted by xyzzy at 12:39 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


The NYT has a story on @onlxn and his Trump dialogues: The Trump Dialogues, From a Parody Universe. Yes, this is an actual real news article, in the New York Times, about a guy on Twitter who writes fake Trump dialogues. 2016, huh?
posted by zachlipton at 12:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


I went to bed instead of watching. I crowdsourced my watching to you people. And you did the best you could, I suppose. But it sounds like Kaine's performance was pretty mediocre at best.
posted by thelonius at 2:34 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Eh, I think the way to put it is that Pence showed up to win the debate while Kaine showed up to win the election.
posted by Justinian at 2:42 AM on October 5, 2016 [45 favorites]


I will think of it as such. No cause for despair.
posted by thelonius at 3:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


via /r/politics

Pence denies he's part of an 'insult-driven' campaign, Trump tweets insults

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 9h9 hours ago
"@Jnelson52722: @realDonaldTrump @Susiesentinel Kaine looks like an evil crook out of the Batman movies"

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 9h9 hours ago
"@elisac006: @nycmia @realDonaldTrump I agree. Kaine looks like a fool!!"

posted by sebastienbailard at 3:28 AM on October 5, 2016 [20 favorites]


I stayed up late (in the UK) to watch the thing. My opinion, for whatever it's worth:

1) Ugh, what a godawful mess. Neither one sounded remotely interested in answering the questions being asked.

2) That being said, Pence came off better in the first half, when Kaine was being irritating, and Kaine came off better in the second half, when Pence started pretending he had never heard of this "Donald Trump" fellow.

3) Ultimately, it's not going to matter and no one's going to care.
posted by kyrademon at 3:30 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


Was Kaine doing an extended impression of coked up Trump for like half an hour and then realised it wasn't working and pivoted?
I think he was setting up for the news cycle today: "yeah, you like it when Trump does this to Hillary. NOW do you get how indefensible this behavior is?"

Because how can anyone make the claim that Kaine was interruptier than Trunp? Yeah, they can't.
posted by instamatic at 3:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Turns out ThatMexicanThing.com was not registered by Clinton's team, but by a quick-thinking fellow in Portland named Danilo Alfaro. Well played!
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:37 AM on October 5, 2016 [30 favorites]


Eh, I think the way to put it is that Pence showed up to win the debate while Kaine showed up to win the election.

Yeah, Pence was playing to a few PA counties while Kaine played to not-white-dudes. Wonder which one is the bigger voting bloc?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:42 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


AndrewInDC: "I would be a fan of candidates wearing solid, neutral colors like soccer goalies."
I would be a fan of candidates wearing colors like in the soccer goalie kits of the 90's.
posted by brokkr at 3:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


How come Kaine wore a blue tie and Pence a red one?
posted by CCBC at 3:49 AM on October 5, 2016


Mike Pence is literally the worst governor of Indiana ever and I include in that assessment Ninian Edwards who governed it as a territory and sent the US Army to burn Peoria to the ground in a fit of pique when he couldn't capture Shawnee war leader Tecumseh in 1812-13 and Congress was like pretty pissed off about it and the resulting litigation lasted until the 1980s.

Yeah, but was he supported by, and granted a State charter to, the Ku Klux Klan, went on to offer sitting governor Warren McCray a $10,000 bribe to support the Klan agenda in Indiana, and was, eventually, swept into office on a pro-Klan agenda like Gov. Ed Johnson?

I mean...Peoria is in Illinois, so...y'know...whatever.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:53 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


If Kaine's goal was to force Pence into a bunch of blatant lies that will provide fodder for attack ads and cable-news talking points, then he did his job. Given how many votes the VP debate usually ends up swaying (zero plus-or-minus zero) that was probably the right strategy.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:02 AM on October 5, 2016 [34 favorites]


Yeah, Zarquon. I feel like they came off about equal and that few minds were changed as a result of the debate itself—athough I do worry that Pence will have reassured some wavering Republicans who were getting a bit concerned about Trump's inflammatory and unrealistic positions. The sheen of reasonableness that Pence smeared over his running mate's words is very thin though, and I think Kaine set things up for that to be thoroughly deconstructed over the coming week. His repeated insistence that you can "go to the tape" to see what Trump has actually said will hopefully set folks up to start doing just that, and perhaps this week will be a sort of Greatest Hits montage of Trump saying absolutely horrible shit. Folks who didn't tune into the campaign until last week would do well to see some of those things brought up again.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:09 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


I didn't watch and based on what I've read here, I don't want to.

I haven't seen much of Kaine. When he was picked I thought it was a pity it was a boring, blue-dog "safe" choice and not Warren, but I had trusted that Clinton would have carefully chosen somebody amply competent to kick the ass of such a transparent moral and intellectual fraud as Pence, a bigot of no accomplishment who only got the VP pick because nobody else was interested in hitching their name to Benito. At the very least I thought Kaine would be as dependable as Biden. It is very disappointing to see that by all accounts Kaine failed to rise to the occasion.

Unless... unless he deliberately threw the debate to make Trump jealous of his own running mate!! Yes, I'm going to go with that. Masterstroke!
posted by moorooka at 4:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]




Turns out ThatMexicanThing.com was not registered by Clinton's team, but by a quick-thinking fellow in Portland named Danilo Alfaro. Well played!

Gosh I hope he is of Mexican descent it really would be such sweet justice. Either way tho, great job.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:30 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Twitter claims "'Whipped out that Mexican thing' is the only VP debate quote you need "

It's a good thing our side is much much better at media manipulation this cycle. A most competent campaign would be trying to dominate the news with Pence Won, instead of being shackled by their top of the ticket's hubris and jealousy.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think better debaters than Kaine would have found it damn hard to nail that jello to the wall.

As mentioned, Kaine did manage to get Pence to defend Trump by lying about Trump's public words and deeds and the campaign will make hay with it.

If it's true that this has rattled trump and gone towards alienating him from pence that may be victory enough.
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


I'm getting really frustrated with how both of them are talking over the moderator. It smacks of misogyny to me.
posted by zug at 10:09 PM on October 4
TFW you worry that Trump/Pence "talking over the female" (either candidate or moderator) is actually part of their campaign strategy to insinuate to voters that women "aren't strong enough to stand up to big shouldered men. I mean, do you really want a *woman* at the negotiating table with all those strongmen?" and then you worry that you might have to turn in your woman card just for thinking that.
posted by instamatic at 4:37 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


omg the fucking psychodrama.

@JohnJHarwood: "Trump adviser on debate after Pence passed up opportunities to defend him: "Pence won overall, but lost with Trump""


The backstage drama at Trump Tower is only getting better:

@JohnJHarwood: “more from adviser on Trump reaction to strong Pence debate following poor Trump showing last week: "he can't stand to be upstaged"”

Between getting overshadowed by his running mate and slipping 35 spots on the Forbes 400 wealthiest list, Trump took a one-two punch of narcissistic injury in the past twenty-four hours. Watch closely to see how he'll lash out in the next couple of days...
posted by Doktor Zed at 4:40 AM on October 5, 2016 [26 favorites]


It's wishful thinking to believe that Trump is going to distance himself from Pence because of this. It'd be hard for him to get any further away anyway.

What the performance imbalance does do is set up the horse-race media (and the large swath of voters who think like they do and enjoy the competitive aspect of the race) to be hard on Trump in the next debate. "Let's see if DJT can live up to the calm smooth style of his VP whoops he cannot now we can hammer him on it but we're being 'fair' so wheee". Again very similar to Lloyd Bentsen in 88. Bentsen was picked to toughen up the ticket, bring in Southern voters and military folks. But all his presence in the narrative did was allow the media to keep smashing Dukakis by comparing him, not to the similarly Yankee wonky Bush, but to his supposed surrogate.

For every conservative who will use Pence as cover there is one whose disgust with Trump's vulgarity will be thrown into high relief against his running mate's "decency and aw shucks humility". It's a wash.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


It's wishful thinking to believe that Trump is going to distance himself from Pence because of this. It'd be hard for him to get any further away anyway.

Doesn't matter anyway, not even the media cares what the VPs do when they're not debating. But the big story of the first debate was how Trump let his anger run away with him despite starting off relatively coached and on-message. If he starts pissed off on Sunday....
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]




I believe @reaganbattalion, I've been following him for a while and he's pretty solid. Also, Trump had to be fought, hard, to choose Pence in the first place, and has been resentful of him for a while. But no one with even a smidgen of sanity can defend the shit that Trump has been saying, and it's unreasonable to expect them to.

Some other great hits from Republican Twitter:

Erick Eriksen: "Boy, I could vote for the Donald Trump who exists in Pence's mind. I just can't vote for the actual Donald Trump."

Rick Wilson: "Now I want to meet the Trump from Earth 2 that Pence kept describing"

@Trump_truther "Mike Pence looks a bit like a Ken doll, doesn't he? Like if an Ken doll got old, had gray hair, wore a suit, and hated women in the military."

Evan McMullin was also tearing it up pretty well, calling out Trump's "police state fantasy", and pointing out when Pence was lying.
posted by corb at 4:54 AM on October 5, 2016 [49 favorites]


Now I want a fucking Egg McMuffin. Thanks!
posted by spitbull at 5:00 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


Hillary could just drop a "not even Pence would defend you."
posted by drezdn at 5:06 AM on October 5, 2016 [91 favorites]


As some presumably small portion of Americans sat through a dull debate between the Republican and Democratic vice-presidential nominees on Tuesday night, a far more interesting drama was unfolding within the Libertarian ticket. VP candidate Bill Weld told the Boston Globe that he plans to focus exclusively on attacking Donald Trump for the remainder of the campaign — essentially admitting that running mate Gary Johnson can not become president. (NYMag)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:09 AM on October 5, 2016 [44 favorites]


CNN expands on reports of post–VP debate unhappiness with Pence from within "Trump World" (which sounds like the worst theme park ever):
JOHN KING (CNN): "I want to give you one insight from somebody inside Trump world, who is in the inner circle in Trump world, who said that he does not think this is going to go down terribly well with the Donald Trump. Even though the Trump campaign is brushing up statements with all conservatives across the country praising Mike Pence. They said Donald Trump is watching the reviews and he's hearing Mike Pence won, but he didn't defend Donald Trump, and that Hillary Clinton and Mike Pence are better debaters than Donald Trump. Some people think that might not sit well with the boss."
Incidentally, has any modern presidential campaign been as prone to leaking as Trump's? In-fighting in the inner circle has provided the media with a steady stream of stories unnamed sources. Most recently, after Trump's disastrous debate, he held a conference call last week with his aides/advisors to chew them out about anonymously leaking to the press - news of which was promptly leaked to the press from "a source familiar with the call".
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:16 AM on October 5, 2016 [21 favorites]


One thing that was interesting was that Pence kept bringing up Iran and the whole nuclear deal thing. But didn't the negotiations for that begin after Hillary Clinton left the position of Secretary of State? So whatever criticisms he had, good or bad, didn't apply.
posted by I-baLL at 5:27 AM on October 5, 2016


Clinton has claimed credit for laying the groundwork that would ultimately produce the deal, so I'd say that one's legit.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:28 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


I hope Donald does what he did last week and says something every day for the next couple of days to keep the 'Pence wouldn't defend Trump, Trump angry?' speculation in the news cycle.

I hope media leading up to the Town Hall speculates about whether Trump can do better that the last debate and better then Pence. Bonus points for Pence would make a better Candidates/President

I hope the media makes it into a feud story.

I hope Donald fixates on showing the Pence guy who's , who's and takes up his own defence and starts relitigating that shit he's said and 'explaining' it. Just like he did with Machado. Donald lets hear about the Mexican Thing again!

I hope Donald will 'break' in the next couple of days and regale world with what he REALLY thinks about Pence and how he is so much better then his VP.

I hope the leaks from Trumps camp about him being more pissed off then they've ever seen are true and that the campaign has to expend lots of energy trying to control Donald to keep him from doing the stupid.
posted by Jalliah at 5:28 AM on October 5, 2016 [14 favorites]


Remember, Jalliah, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies.
posted by duffell at 5:31 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


The cuts and soundbites I'm seeing this morning really cast Kaine in a better light. Most of the interrupty, caffinated Kaine we saw in real time last night just doesn't come through in any of the highlight reels.
posted by klarck at 5:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Given that DJT decided to play with his own shit during his debate, not really surprised that Pence looked relatively good.

Seriously, if I cared about Trump aside from his ascendency to power would be an existential threat to humanity, if I was a family member I would honest to God a) stage an intervention and/or b) Get them to go to a doctor. And I mean that literally. It would be *something's finally got to be done about Uncle Donnie* time.

It also just fascinating to me that Pence, who, while he may be Skeletor, seems to understand what a superficial representation of sane looks like and yet, and yet, and yet he agreed to be Trump's VP. But then, I can't understand McCain, Cruz, and Ryan doing what seems to be the political equivalent of making sweet love to a dirty, rancid diaper.
posted by angrycat at 5:43 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


Pence agreed to be Trump's VP because he's so unpopular in Indiana that the consensus is he had nowhere else to go.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [17 favorites]


Yeah, Pence was going to get spanked HARD in Indiana so jumping to the VP slot for Trump not only gave him an out from a humiliating defeat but gave him a shot at the Presidency.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:48 AM on October 5, 2016


Here's the Clinton video on Pence vs Trumps words. Results.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:48 AM on October 5, 2016 [74 favorites]


Obviously, there's a lot I disagree with in this, but it's interesting. From the Christian Post, Hillary Clinton is the Best Choice for Voters Against Abortion. The key points:
It's no coincidence that abortions go up when Republicans are in charge and down when Democrats are. The two biggest indicators a woman will have an abortion are that she is poor (75% of women who have abortions make less than $23,000 and half make less than $11,000), and had an unintended pregnancy (half of U.S. pregnancies are unintended, and 43% end in abortion).

Want to guess which political party is more effective at reducing poverty and unwanted pregnancies? I'll give you a hint. It's not the "pro-life" Party that in this last Congressional session alone fought to cut medical care for poor mothers and children, food programs for kids, and contraception coverage and access for women.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:53 AM on October 5, 2016 [142 favorites]


The twitter replies to that video are incredible. They are all saying that everything was taken out of context and stuff. My brain hurts.
posted by sio42 at 5:54 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


The Republicans' execrable anti-Kaine attack ad, where they say he's unfit to be VP because he represented accused criminals in court, turns out to be not just unamerican but plagiarized.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:59 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


If it ain't fixed, don't break it.
posted by y2karl at 6:03 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


In case anyone hasn't yet had their fill of Vice Presidents: All Candidates Debate 5, featuring Clinton's running mate
posted by Greg Nog at 6:04 AM on October 5, 2016 [23 favorites]





This is my favourite headline so far.

Business Insider: Mike Pence 'won' the debate by pretending Donald Trump doesn't exist

From the news I've come across online there it so far seems to be a lot of "Pence narrowly won but..." type coverage.
posted by Jalliah at 6:15 AM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


In case anyone hasn't yet had their fill of Vice Presidents: All Candidates Debate 5, featuring Clinton's running mate

I watched this last night before going to bed and when I woke up in the middle of the night to pee I realized I was humming the (revised) Marco Rubio song. It's happening again.
posted by phunniemee at 6:18 AM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


Debate moderator outsourced all of her questions on the economy to a group of fiscal conservatives
Quijano did not ask either candidate about their plans to foster job growth. She did not broach the subject of trade. Or ask about home ownership. Or wages. Or job training. Or poverty.

Instead, she asked just two questions about economic policy, and she explicitly attributed both of them to the “nonpartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget.” The first asked if the two vice presidential candidates are “concerned that adding more to the debt could be disastrous for the country.” The second warned of a grim future, “when the Social Security Trust Funds run out of money.”

So who is the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget? They are probably the leading advocacy group promoting the idea that federal deficits are out of control and shrinking them should be a top priority. Their board members include both Alan Simpson and Erskine Bowles, co-chairs of a government commission that tried and failed to advance various proposals supported by deficit hawks in 2010. Pete Peterson, a billionaire who is probably the nation’s leading funder of anti-deficit advocacy, is also a board member.

To be sure, there are many people — especially in elite media circles — who share the Committee’s view that deficits are a pressing issue. But Quijano’s decision to focus on this to the exclusion of all other economic policy questions is odd. It is especially odd because the case for aggressive deficit reduction is weaker today than it has been in years.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:19 AM on October 5, 2016 [65 favorites]


Doktor Zed Incidentally, has any modern presidential campaign been as prone to leaking as Trump's? In-fighting in the inner circle has provided the media with a steady stream of stories unnamed sources.

Campaigns I'm not sure about, but actual presidencies, yes. The constant infighting leaks from the Trump campaign are eerily similar to the Reagan administration's constant infighting leaks. And I suspect for basically the same reason: the candidate/president is an empty suit who doesn't actually do any of the work he's supposed to be doing, and so has attracted multiple competing factions who essentially hate each other and wish to use the power vacuum at the top to promote their own agendas at the expense of the other factions.
posted by sotonohito at 6:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [36 favorites]


From the news I've come across online there it so far seems to be a lot of "Pence narrowly won but..." type coverage.

Yeah, I mostly agree with The Gist's take: Pence "won," insofar as he stayed cool and looked good, but the clear outward appearance is that he had to basically dismiss Trump to do it.

But personally, I think he'll "get away with it," because what he said is much less important in the court of public opinion than how he said it.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:22 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


I was humming the (revised) Marco Rubio song.

The beauty of the revision is that now it can be stuck in your head for the next four years
posted by Greg Nog at 6:23 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


My hunch is that most people didn't watch, and most people who started watching turned it off after 15 minutes. So what matters is the post-debate scuttlebutt, and "Pence won, but..." is probably just as bad for Trump as "Pence lost." I don't think this shifts the momentum in the way that Trump would need to shift it.

So yeah, not panicking or even particularly worried. On to the next thing.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


TL;DW for the VP debate: nothing happened.

By which I mean, lots happened, but nothing that will have any impact on the election. Neither candidate said anything so monumentally stupid or offensive that it will get even a single news cycle of attention, both managed to look at least sort of, vaguely, competent.

For people like me who had been seeing Pence as the second coming of Dan Quayle it was a revelatory disappointment, apparently Pence isn't actually as stupid as he seems to be.
posted by sotonohito at 6:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think Pence is evil, not stupid.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:26 AM on October 5, 2016 [28 favorites]


The Marco Rubio song ? I have yet to hear that. What comes to mind is sung to the tune of the theme to the Garry Shandling Show:
This.is the Marco Rubio Song!
This is the Marco Rubio song!
Third line down, it gets too long...
posted by y2karl at 6:27 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


My expert analysis of the VP debate was that it was a good game but Showalter really missed a chance to compete with the Blue Jays by sending in Duensing and Jimenez to pitch the 11th when the best reliever in baseball was ready to go in the bullpen.

I'm obsessed with this election, but the VP debate was about as compelling as syndicated reruns of Small Wonder.
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:30 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


apparently Pence isn't actually as stupid as he seems to be.

He was a radio guy, and watching him speak in such a calm, collected, pivot-on-a-dime way, I was reminded of David Foster Wallace's profile of conservative talk radio host John Ziegler. The key bit is DFW's description of the job:
Hosting talk radio is an exotic, high-pressure gig that not many people are fit for, and being truly good at it requires skills so specialized that many of them don't have names.

To appreciate these skills and some of the difficulties involved, you might wish to do an experiment. Try sitting alone in a room with a clock, turning on a tape recorder, and starting to speak into it. Speak about anything you want—with the proviso that your topic, and your opinions on it, must be of interest to some group of strangers who you imagine will be listening to the tape. Naturally, in order to be even minimally interesting, your remarks should be intelligible and their reasoning sequential—a listener will have to be able to follow the logic of what you're saying—which means that you will have to know enough about your topic to organize your statements in a coherent way. (But you cannot do much of this organizing beforehand; it has to occur at the same time you're speaking.) Plus, ideally, what you're saying should be not just comprehensible and interesting but compelling, stimulating, which means that your remarks have to provoke and sustain some kind of emotional reaction in the listeners, which in turn will require you to construct some kind of identifiable persona for yourself—your comments will need to strike the listener as coming from an actual human being, someone with a real personality and real feelings about whatever it is you're discussing. And it gets even trickier: You're trying to communicate in real time with someone you cannot see or hear responses from; and though you're communicating in speech, your remarks cannot have any of the fragmentary, repetitive, garbled qualities of real interhuman speech, or speech's ticcy unconscious "umm"s or "you know"s, or false starts or stutters or long pauses while you try to think of how to phrase what you want to say next. You're also, of course, denied the physical inflections that are so much a part of spoken English—the facial expressions, changes in posture, and symphony of little gestures that accompany and buttress real talking. Everything unspoken about you, your topic, and how you feel about it has to be conveyed through pitch, volume, tone, and pacing. The pacing is especially important: it can't be too slow, since that's low-energy and dull, but it can't be too rushed or it will sound like babbling. And so you have somehow to keep all these different imperatives and structures in mind at the same time, while also filling exactly, say, eleven minutes, with no dead air and no going over, such that at 10:46 you have wound things up neatly.
posted by Greg Nog at 6:32 AM on October 5, 2016 [81 favorites]


Here's the Clinton video on Pence vs Trumps words. Results.

Oh, that's lovely. Just perfect. The CNN version was a little long, but this one is edited with a razor blade.
posted by mikelieman at 6:33 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


I had a panic dream about the election last night, worrying over if Pence came across as too believable and if that would turn the tide of the election. I didn't even watch the debate last night! I just followed the thread.

When will this madness end? My liver can only take so much more of this.
posted by PearlRose at 6:40 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


This just in, Donnie has a word with Mike Pence....
posted by mikelieman at 6:44 AM on October 5, 2016


I just realized the timing of Pence and Trump flipping on Russia - right after Assange fell through and Guccifer 2.0 dropped a hot pile of nothing.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:44 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


'tho Donnie is more Montana Max than Wilson Fisk, of course...
posted by mikelieman at 6:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


I just realized the timing of Pence and Trump flipping on Russia

Trump has flipped too? What have a missed.
posted by Jalliah at 6:48 AM on October 5, 2016


I think Pence is evil, not stupid.

I live in Indiana, trust me, he's both. He scored so many own goals (religious freedom act, for example) that the business-oriented Republicans in Indianapolis wanted nothing to do with him. He wasn't raising nearly the funds he should have been. Folks were just sitting out. He almost lost his last reelection, and was on track to lose this one before he jumped ship. Incumbent Republican governors do not lose reelections in Indiana unless they're particularly incompetent.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:49 AM on October 5, 2016 [30 favorites]


Unless... unless he deliberately threw the debate to make Trump jealous of his own running mate!! Yes, I'm going to go with that. Masterstroke!

I'm not going to attribute the debate to nth-dimensional chess or anything, but the Clinton campaign has repeatedly said and done things that indicate that they believe using Trump's (and Pence's) own words against them is a winning strategy. Judging by the ads starting to come out, Kaine did what he was supposed to do. If the punditry is already turning from "Pence wins by not turning into Nyarlathotep on-stage" to "wow, he lied to our faces about stuff we have on videotape," and the electorate agrees, then it's at best a wash (when they need a win) and at worst another hit when they don't have the time to recover.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


I remain cautiously optimistic that Hillary Clinton will win, but, boy, do we need to have a national conversation about American Democracy after this. Because I was always told that Democracy is self-correcting, that the American experiment was designed to prevent dictatorship.

And yet here we are, a hair's breadth away from a dictator. And all it took to stop it was the most qualified presidential candidate in history coming off the most effective president in living memory, the total lack of institutional support from the candidate's own party, a civil war in conservative media, relentless self-sabotage by the candidate himself, and the refusal of every other living president to vote for the candidate.
posted by maxsparber at 6:52 AM on October 5, 2016 [121 favorites]


Trump has flipped too? What have a missed.

Maybe not a flip as much as Trump Brand Word Salad, I was thinking of his "we need to talk about Hillary's Russia connections" thing.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:54 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


According to New York Magazine, Weld is out.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:58 AM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


The small navy thing is just moronic

One modern missile cruiser could wipe out a fleet of big gun ships

One submarine can incinerate a mid-sized nation

It's just...so stupid


Well, if you're playing as the Americans in Civilization 4, your missile cruisers have an attack strength of 40 against a destroyer's defense strength of 24, so you'll probably win the first fight or two, but then you'll have to retreat for repairs. A decent fleet of 19th-century ironclads could, with the proper Zap-Brannigan-style tactics, take one down.

Oh my god you guys. I've finally figured it out. Trump isn't playing Diplomacy, he's playing Civ, and he thinks cultural or space wins are for wimps. You get major diplomatic bonuses with other warmongers if you saber-rattle. Switching to fascism cuts all your military upkeep costs drastically. You can renege freely on treaties as long as your military is so overpowered that they fear retaliating. The only way to stop the spread of Islam is to close your borders and switch to theocracy. Gandhi, behind that calm exterior, is secretly building a nuclear arsenal to annihilate us all.

This is the most plausible explanation I have yet seen for 2016.
posted by Mayor West at 6:59 AM on October 5, 2016 [48 favorites]


I remain cautiously optimistic that Hillary Clinton will win, but, boy, do we need to have a national conversation about American Democracy after this. Because I was always told that Democracy is self-correcting, that the American experiment was designed to prevent dictatorship.

And yet here we are, a hair's breadth away from a dictator. And all it took to stop it was the most qualified presidential candidate in history coming off the most effective president in living memory, the total lack of institutional support from the candidate's own party, a civil war in conservative media, relentless self-sabotage by the candidate himself, and the refusal of every other living president to vote for the candidate.


The Republican Party is a failed state. That said, I think a generic male Democrat would be crushing Trump right now. Hillary, due to a combination of 25+ years of relentless demonization by the right, together with being the first woman running for President, starts at a significant handicap. Pair that with the fact that she just isn't at her strongest when she's campaigning; she's better when she governs.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:02 AM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


Because I was always told that Democracy is self-correcting, that the American experiment was designed to prevent dictatorship.

The black experience in the United States would seem to indicate this assumption is manifestly incorrect.
posted by My Dad at 7:02 AM on October 5, 2016 [17 favorites]


According to New York Magazine, Weld is out.

See this freaks me out. I get the intent of why he would do it but right now but are we sure that in the states where it matters that enough Johnson voters would move to Clinton and not to Trump?
posted by Jalliah at 7:02 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


The Daily Show - Vice Presidential Debate Wrap-Up

Best bit is the last one.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:04 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


It's wishful thinking to believe that Trump is going to distance himself from Pence because of this. It'd be hard for him to get any further away anyway.

How soon they forget...
"I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, okay, and I wouldn't lose any voters, okay?"
posted by Thorzdad at 7:04 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Johnson/Weld aren't out. Weld just isn't doing anything to campaign for them anymore.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:04 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


I was thinking of his "we need to talk about Hillary's Russia connections" thing.

Isn't that just the well-documented effects of Trump's Mirror in action, though?

"What? Hillary and Kaine say I have suspicious ties to Russia? Then I say she has pictures of Putin in her locker, and fills up her notebook writing"Mrs. Vladimir Putin" over and over again."
[puts down phone, resumes working on his Play-Doh model of all-dictator Mt. Rushmore]
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:05 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


Johnson/Weld aren't out. Weld just isn't doing anything to campaign for them anymore.

Awesome. Minor bout of anxiety averted....
posted by Jalliah at 7:06 AM on October 5, 2016


According to New York Magazine, Weld is out.

New York Magazine says no such thing. Nor does the Boston Globe article it's based on. He's still in the race, but his campaigning is moving in emphasis from "here's why you should vote for Johnson" to "here's why you should vote against Trump."
posted by Shmuel510 at 7:07 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


I get the intent of why he would do it but right now but are we sure that in the states where it matters that enough Johnson voters would move to Clinton and not to Trump?

Clinton's lead widens in two-way polls, so it's likely.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:08 AM on October 5, 2016


waitingtoderail: I gotta say, Trump clearly isn't live-tweeting jack-sh**.

Probably the only thing I have in common with Trump is that we both won't be watching the VP debate tonight. — Jim Gaffigan (@JimGaffigan)
posted by filthy light thief at 7:10 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


There are clearly some people who say they're for Johnson in four-way polls and say they're for Clinton in two-way ones, but honestly, I think a lot of them are probably not going to vote at all.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:11 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


I started watching the debate but I'll admit I had to tune out. Sadly, Kaine just isn't Clinton, and while he had some quality retorts, it just wasn't the same. Kaine got blustery for a bit which wasn't great. Pence accused Kaine of (gasp!) preparing and Kaine went on the defensive, but that called for an offensive move - do you want a VP (and President) that aren't gonna prepare for negotiations with Russia/China/Syria/Iraq? Pence brought up a fallen soldier and I was waiting for Kaine to bring up the Kahns. Pence also managed to rile up Kaine when he brought up the emails in a way Trump was unable to provoke Clinton during their debate. Kaine also didn't have a good retort for when Pence brought up the basket of deplorables, especially when Kaine brought up home-grown terrorism but didn't link that to the white supremacists in that basket. Still, I think some of that was planned as I doubt harping on Pence's record on gay rights is necessarily the most productive with undecideds and Republican-leaning folk who may well have voted for Bush II twice and care more about jobs.
posted by fragmede at 7:16 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


You: watching the debate

Me: currently in a building with literally every 5th grader in my school district taking their first music lesson on their brand new band and orchestra instruments. I am sitting between the violas and the flutes but sound is carrying from every direction.

I am not sure who is in a worse spot.


The debate viewer, because you can dream of a time when every kid around you is better to the point of not making you physically cringe at the sounds they make, probably to the point that you wouldn't mind hearing them. The debate viewer had to listen to and think about Pence talk about Trump, which will never get better until they both go away, which may not happen for a long time.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Given the little of Kaine that I'd seen prior, I think judging the entirety of his debate skills solely on last night is selling him short. The ad the Clinton campaign just released is pretty brutal, and they have a trove of material to use for the rest of the campaign.
posted by strange chain at 7:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


Late to this, but:

Ivanka is Princess Irulan, natch

This isn't fair to Irulan. Irulan isn't a just-as-bad lapdog for Shaddam. IIRC, she takes her own steps, either independently or for the sisterhood, to figure out that her father was directly involved in the Harkonnen strike against the Atreides. And after Paul and Chani are gone, Irulan works hard and with apparently sincere love to act as a mother surrogate for Leto and Ghanima, not that they really need it, and defends them from Alia at some risk to herself. Ivanka is more Feyd; just as vicious as Harkonnen, maybe a bit cleverer, and being groomed to be a charismatic savior.

Shut-The-Fuck-Up-Donnie is, of course, Rabban.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:23 AM on October 5, 2016 [26 favorites]


I like actual debates. The kind that I used to have when I was teaching English class. When kids argued two sides of an issue, and half way through, a couple of them would ask me urgently if they were allowed to change sides because they had been convinced of the opposing viewpoint. Yeah, I didn't watch the debates, because these things are basically dog-and-pony shows.
posted by Peach at 7:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


Pence thanked the wrong university during the introduction.
posted by Talez at 7:25 AM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


Pence thanked the wrong university during the introduction.

He never said that.
posted by dersins at 7:27 AM on October 5, 2016 [110 favorites]


late to the party but can we talk for a minute about the bizarro world in which the republican VP nominee, several times, touted his union support? granted it was the border guards who, I suppose, along with cops, are the only people the party seems to think should have collective bargaining rights but even still - I would have loved to see Kaine go after him on how they are suddenly pro union when one comes out in favor of their side. doubly so if only the VP pick had been scott walker.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 7:28 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]




So I've spent most of my working life working for older white dudes (who hasn't?) and I found myself looking at the faces of the two of them and deciding that, if your mom died, Kaine would be the boss who totally understood that you needed an extra day off for bereavement, and sent you flowers, while Pence would call you into his office and chew you out for crying at your desk.
posted by emjaybee at 7:31 AM on October 5, 2016 [85 favorites]


Given the little of Kaine that I'd seen prior, I think judging the entirety of his debate skills solely on last night is selling him short. The ad the Clinton campaign just released is pretty brutal, and they have a trove of material to use for the rest of the campaign.

Yeah, it was incredibly frustrating to watch in real time, but the second I saw that CNN comparison video it became clear that Kaine wasn't really even trying to debate Pence - he was just throwing out sound bites and trying to make Pence and Trump look bad.

PS, if anybody missed it last night, I still cannot get over this:

Note the full Matthew 12:34 quote, of which Kaine quoted only the latter half:

"You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks."


I mean holy fuck. I haven't seen any headlines about that yet, but it's a more brutal slam than anything else Kaine said last night by far.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:32 AM on October 5, 2016 [107 favorites]


Yeah, and that Bible quote isn't going to be lost on my people, either.
posted by corb at 7:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [83 favorites]


late to the party but can we talk for a minute about the bizarro world in which the republican VP nominee, several times, touted his union support?

The general weakness of Unions at this point, plus Trump's lip service about protectionism, plus the Democrats' increased reliance on large donors, means that Republicans could actually peel off a huge number of union votes in the future, if they felt like pursuing that route. 2020 is going to be such a fucking nightmare.
posted by Greg Nog at 7:38 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


Yeah, and that Bible quote isn't going to be lost on my people, either.

"The lesser of two evils is stay home?" A "protest vote with your feet" from evangelicals could swing this. That's a demographic the GOP has relied on for quite a while.

I am Mike Lieman, and I approve this message.
posted by mikelieman at 7:39 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, it was incredibly frustrating to watch in real time, but the second I saw that CNN comparison video it became clear that Kaine wasn't really even trying to debate Pence - he was just throwing out sound bites and trying to make Pence and Trump look bad.

I am coming around to this position--Kaine sacrificed the debate to win the election. If that's the plan and it works, their campaign strategists are better than I am.

Clinton has been absolutely on fire with her videos this season. I don't know how widely they are viewed, but they are sharp.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:48 AM on October 5, 2016 [26 favorites]


The quote I've been using with evangelicals tempted to vote Trump is the following, from CS Lewis -
"I feel a strong desire to tell you – and I expect you feel a strong desire to tell me – which of these two errors is the worse. That is the devil getting at us. He always sends errors into the world in pairs – pairs of opposites. And he always encourages us to spend a lot of time thinking which is the worse. You see why, of course? He relies on your extra dislike of the one error to draw you gradually into the opposite one. But do not let us be fooled. We have to keep our eyes on the goal and go straight through between both errors. We have no other concern that that with either of them."
posted by corb at 7:50 AM on October 5, 2016 [33 favorites]


So was it just me or did Pence mock Trump's Mexico wall idea?
posted by I-baLL at 7:51 AM on October 5, 2016


I think judging the entirety of his debate skills solely on last night is selling him short.

The 2012 debate with George 'macaca' Allen shows a very different approach. Admittedly, statewide elections are much lower-profile and the debates reflect that -- the one where Kelly Ayotte struggled with the "role model" question looked like it was being held in a spare conference room -- but it seems pretty clear that Kaine was working a strategy to set the table for the town hall debate. Lots of Clinton surrogates on the trail today (though Hillary herself doesn't have anything scheduled) so let's see if they adopt a consistent line that not even Pence will defend the crazy shit Trump says.
posted by holgate at 7:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


I struggled a bit to find the most recent campaign ad from last night (it's posted above, but things get lost in the shuffle here). If you're looking for it, the video is here.
posted by phunniemee at 7:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, it was incredibly frustrating to watch in real time, but the second I saw that CNN comparison video it became clear that Kaine wasn't really even trying to debate Pence - he was just throwing out sound bites and trying to make Pence and Trump look bad.

That was his job. Kaine wasn't there to make Kaine look good; he was there to make Trump look bad and stick as much as he could to Trump. He did his job well.

I'm not sure what job the Trump campaign tasked Pence with, but it sure looks like Pence decided that his job was to get Pence in the running for 2020.
posted by craven_morhead at 7:54 AM on October 5, 2016 [36 favorites]


I do wonder whether some of Kaine's aggression was actually about his own political brand - an attempt to derail this "America's affable Dad" persona before it gets too entrenched. We're all having fun with it but if he has ambitions beyond the next eight years he might not want to be saddled with it forever.
posted by yarrow at 7:57 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


vuron: In contrast Pence did absolutely nothing to expand the Trump base.

Sadly, that's not true. For at least one undecided, strongly Catholic young lady in Arizona, Pence went far to win her over despite recognizing that Trump is a terrible person with terrible views and actions (NPR roundtable from this morning, audio only for now, with a transcript to come later today). She's a young Latina, but for her and another Republican woman in Arizona, faith trumps all. (But for luckily for my sanity, the two men who are pro-Clinton said things that made me pump my fist: so many "Pro-Life" advocates stop caring about that life after it's born, and religion can be great but let's remember the First Amendment and the Separation of Church and State.)

As an atheist who wishes religious people all the best but feel very strongly that separation of Church and State is key, Tim Kaine's comments made me even more excited to vote for Clinton/Kaine:
I looked the voters of Virginia in the eye and said, look, this is my religion. I'm not going to change my religious practice to get one vote, but I know how to take an oath and uphold the law. And if you elect me, I will uphold the law.
...
That was a real struggle. But I think it is really, really important that those of us who have deep faith lives don't feel that we could just substitute our own views for everybody else in society, regardless of their views.
Pulled from the Washington Post annotated VP debate transcript.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:00 AM on October 5, 2016 [31 favorites]


I am Mike Lieman, and I approve this message.
posted by mikelieman at 9:39 AM on October 5 [+] [!]


Holy shit. I've been calling you "mik elie man" in my head all these years....
posted by Floydd at 8:03 AM on October 5, 2016 [40 favorites]


I thought it was Mikel Ieman. *shrug*
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:06 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]



Holy shit. I've been calling you "mik elie man" in my head all these years

Milky Man. Sorrynotsorry.
posted by zutalors! at 8:06 AM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


I thought it was Mikelie Man.
posted by Pendragon at 8:08 AM on October 5, 2016 [17 favorites]


He always sends errors into the world in pairs

Boy, you can really tell that C. S. Lewis never had to grapple with the mysteries of Donald Trump. If he had, this would read more like,
He always sends errors into the world in clumps of 150 to 200 -- pairs of opposites, and then the doubling down on, "sarcastic" negation of, flat denial of, theatrical overstatement of, permutational recombination of, and nonsensical fusions of those pairs, plus a lot of peripheral unrelated lies orbiting the central cluster like electrons surrounding a nucleus, some creepy incest-adjacent stuff that I don't even, whatever the fuck Rudy Guiliani is saying, and brand promotion . . . I've really kind of lost my train of thought here, but I think it had something to do with lying or maybe Jesus? Anyway, lots of errors. Gosh, I'm tired. Gonna go lie down now.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 8:10 AM on October 5, 2016 [23 favorites]




I thought it was Mikelie Man.

The Michelin Man's Russian cousin?
posted by Talez at 8:12 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump: Mike Lieman's close ties to Russia deserve scrutiny [fake]
posted by fragmede at 8:14 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]



YouTube version of the 'Indefensible' ad


Damn, son.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:16 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


I've spent most of my working life working for older white dudes (who hasn't?)

*raises hand*

I've had two male bosses at contract jobs, totalling about six months. Other than that, every single one of my direct supervisors have been women. Granted, I do work in the non-profit world. I'm literally wearing a pink-collared shirt rn

Point being, my generation is a lot more used to directly experiencing female leadership than people over the age of 40 or so are. Turns out the world doesn't end.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:19 AM on October 5, 2016 [31 favorites]


Yeah, and that Bible quote isn't going to be lost on my people, either.

Nor I bet was it lost on Mike Pence. You can damn well bet he got the full meaning when Kaine pulled it on him.
posted by odinsdream at 8:19 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


As the debate progressed I really did get the feeling that Kaine was sent there to reap what Trump had sown and come home with some great soundbites. And lo and behold, Clinton's ad team is on point.

Nobody watches the VP debate but election wonks, but those ads will make the rounds of the voting public. Well played, good sir.
posted by lydhre at 8:20 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]




Trump: Mike Lieman's close ties to Russia deserve scrutiny [fake]

FULL DISCLOSURE: Eastern-European Jew. Pierogi and Brisket is the Food of My People.
posted by mikelieman at 8:25 AM on October 5, 2016 [28 favorites]


ACTUALLY, "New York Jew, from the Bronx, originally...", but if you want to get all "23 and Me", see above..
posted by mikelieman at 8:26 AM on October 5, 2016


Bialy's > Bagels
posted by mikelieman at 8:28 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


And from my interaction with the conservosphere this AM.

So on the Facebook I made a comment: It was like the Mike Pence of Earth-199999 was sent to the debate on Earth-616. He was probably confused by all the questions about Trump, like, "Why aren't we talking about Matthew Ellis?" (rimshot goes here)

Which was immediately followed by "Kaine reminded me of 'Teb' from Galaxy Quest..."

OK, yeah, Kaine does kind of look like Jed Rees. But seriously, that's your slam? There are about eight things you could legitimately criticize Kaine for. And seriously, if your schtick is to make the Clinton Campaign out to be sinister, you didn't go with The Recruiter from Deadpool but, instead picked a goofy and mostly likable character who no one is going to remember the name of from a 17 year old movie?

I'm not sure what is being said on high, but in the smartax, but I think it's safe to say that we're past peak Pepe the Frog.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 8:29 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Bialy's > Bagels

flagged

I carried a bag of fresh bialys on an airplane once. I was not popular that day.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:30 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


FULL DISCLOSURE: Eastern-European Jew. Pierogi and Brisket is the Food of My People.

Mmm. That reminds me, there's leftover brisket in the fridge. Shana Tova, indeed!

BTW, interesting (to me anyway) how many people on Twitter responded to DTJ tweet about Rosh Hashanah with how unsafe they have been made to feel for the first time as a Jew in the U.S. (all links for Twitter).
posted by Sophie1 at 8:31 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


I just want to say that I am not comfortable with the hostility toward Russia that was expressed, and I don't like hearing it from any candidate. Confrontation and aggression is not strength and it makes me nervous because I don't think open conflict with Russia on any level is a good thing. If we want to move them in a positive direction, calling them out publicly isn't the way.

I have a bias, my family is still there. But still.
posted by prefpara at 8:32 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


Neither candidate said anything so monumentally stupid or offensive that it will get even a single news cycle of attention

"#ThatMexicanThing" has launched a nice flurry of tweets and memes, and has a chance of stirring Latinx voters who know they're overwhelmed in a red state.

Mostly, I agree with the analysis that Pence was trying to win the debate, and he did, and Kaine was trying to enhance his campaign - and he succeeded in that. They both reached their goals, which is why they were smiling and relaxed by the end of things.

I am looking forward to the Trumpslosion as he figures out that the only reason Pence did well was that he dodged every question remotely related to Trump's positions.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:33 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, the sudden uptick in Russian rhetoric is setting off warning bells. Mostly because I can't tell if Putin and his machine is actually provoking us more, or if American politicians are just noticing the Crimea and Syria, or what. But I haven't seen this much anti Russian talk since the Reagan years, it seems.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 8:41 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


As I was saying upthread...
@RealRealDonaldTrump
The constant interruptions last night by Tim Kaine should not have been allowed. Mike Pence won big!
Hahahahahaha
posted by instamatic at 8:42 AM on October 5, 2016 [17 favorites]


Yeah, the sudden uptick in Russian rhetoric is setting off warning bells. Mostly because I can't tell if Putin and his machine is actually provoking us more, or if American politicians are just noticing the Crimea and Syria, or what. But I haven't seen this much anti Russian talk since the Reagan years, it seems.

They are literally trying to hack this election.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:43 AM on October 5, 2016 [35 favorites]


Best headline nominee: Mike Pence Won The Debate For His Imaginary Running Mate, Mitt Romney (BuzzFeed)
posted by lalex at 8:43 AM on October 5, 2016 [41 favorites]


BTW, interesting (to me anyway) how many people on Twitter responded to DTJ tweet about Rosh Hashanah with how unsafe they have been made to feel for the first time as a Jew in the U.S. (all links for Twitter).

It hasn't hit me yet. I'm not sure why, as my Twitter icon is all about Yiddish and has images both of me wearing tzitzits and me wearing tefillin, so I couldn't really be more Jewey online. (I suspect it's both because I mix that imagery with British imagery, which might confuse people, and, to a much greater extent, because I am a white dude, and white dudes aren't targeted as much.)

But, boy, do I see it. A lot of people who are publicly identified as Jews, either by themselves or by antisemities, and especially if they are openly feminist or in some other way political, are subject to just a torrent of vicious antisemitic abuse. And there has been a visible rise in Twitter users who identify as white nationalists and use coded words to express antisemitism -- "kayaks" is a popular replacement for an anti-Jewish epithet, and so you'll see people with Twitter handles that read "gas the kayaks" and that sort of thing.

And I believe them when they say they feel like Trump gave them permission. I know there is some argument about where the Trump Effect is real, whether there has been a marked rise in hateful behavior, post-Trump and inspired by him, but, you know, the haters all say there has been. They all credit him. They all take his and his son's posting of their memes, Trump's anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant comments, Trump's overt sexism, Trump's recent highlighting of a Jewish name in association with Clinton, etc. as acts of permission, acts that legitimize their worldview.

This is what it means when people say that a president's words matter. Because trickle down economics might not work, but trickle down hate does. At the top, you need only gesture at a troublesome priest, and those below you will volunteer to be the shock troops against him. And when you have someone saying Muslims must be kept out of the country, immigrants are rapists, etc. the shock troops will interpret it as a much larger mandate than a simple complaint about a priest. You just need to say Muslims should be identified somehow and a percent of the population will burn their mosques, and you need merely say a Jewish name and Jews on Twitter will receive photos of themselves in gas chambers.
posted by maxsparber at 8:44 AM on October 5, 2016 [91 favorites]


I grow increasingly convinced that HRC is staying out of the brightest parts of the spotlight at the moment, not just because when your opponent is busy destroying himself you stay out of his way, but more specifically because they (her campaign) are consciously baiting out what Trump threatened after the first debate: an attack on her that centers around Bill's infidelity.

It's literally the "oh please brer fox, don't bring up Monica Lewinsky" thing. Kaine and other surrogates have been tasked with doing whatever they reckon is most likely to piss Trump off; Trump's campaign (such as it is) has to be screaming at him to, whatever he does, DON'T BRING UP BILL'S CHEATING, which just makes it more likely as it imbues the idea with greater destructive force in Trump's mind (he can't think of a more powerful punch to land than sexual embarrassment and the taboo invests it with even greater power; to him, it's like people saying you never use nuclear weapons); and HRC is feigning, if not vulnerability, at least distraction. She's showing her back to bait the pounce.

If he brings it up on Sunday, she will annihilate him. There's no angle she's stronger on, no problem she's spend more time and energy being prepared to confront. And she's never been more popular and sympathetic than when she was dealing with Bill's fuck-around-ery. It's the worst possible move he could make, the most inexplicable tactic he could choose. Which means of course that he's definitely going to do it.
posted by penduluum at 8:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [47 favorites]


The Russia talk reminds me of something that tickled my brain last night:

Pence said that "the truth of the matter is, the weak and feckless foreign policy of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama has awakened an aggression in Russia that first appeared a few years ago with their move in Georgia, now their move into Crimea, now their move into the wider Middle East. (emphasis mine; source: WaPo transcript.)

Thing is, Russia invaded Georgia in August 2008. I... feel like there was a different person in the Oval Office then. Can't think of their name though
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:48 AM on October 5, 2016 [52 favorites]


She could also make a play to the conservative seats with some version of "I believe a marriage is forever" and it would be egg on his face all the way down.
posted by corb at 8:48 AM on October 5, 2016 [32 favorites]


VP hopeful Weld is more interested in attacking Trump

The Libertarian vice presidential candidate, William F. Weld, said Tuesday that he plans to focus exclusively on blasting Donald Trump over the next five weeks, a strategic pivot aimed at denying Trump the White House and giving himself a key role in helping to rebuild the GOP.

Weld’s comments in a Globe interview mark a major shift in his mission since he pledged at the Libertarian convention in May that he would remain a Libertarian for life and would do all he could to help elect his running mate, Gary Johnson, the former Republican governor of New Mexico.

posted by a lungful of dragon at 8:49 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is there any chance that the Central Park Five (and Trump's despicable reaction to the case) get the Alicia Machado treatment in the next few weeks?
posted by one_bean at 8:50 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


She could also make a play to the conservative seats with some version of "I believe a marriage is forever" and it would be egg on his face all the way down.

"I took a sacred vow to G-d, 'For better or worse', and when it was at it's worst, I KEPT MY VOW SACRED VOW'. You certainly can't say the same, Donnie...
posted by mikelieman at 8:52 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Not if she's smart. The Central Park Five are not universally understood to actually be innocent, and a lot of people sympathized with his sentiment in that case. It was a really, really brutal rape. She wants to keep with the Khans and Machados - people only a monster could hate.
posted by corb at 8:54 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


Front page headline of The Guardian: Pence defends running mate against Kaine's attacks in debate
In the article: "On almost every occasion, Pence offered little by way of defense."

>_>
posted by J.K. Seazer at 8:55 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


Kevin Drum makes a good point regarding last night's low ratings:
This suggests that the post-debate spin is going to be more important than usual since so few people actually saw the debate. I suspect that's good for Team Clinton, since Tim Kaine's performance is likely to look better over time. It may not have won people over during the debate itself, but Kaine badgered Pence pretty effectively and did a good job of exposing Pence's unwillingness to defend Donald Trump. In the end, the fact that Pence was so determined to throw Trump under the bus is likely to be the debate's biggest takeaway.
posted by Gelatin at 8:56 AM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


I carried a bag of fresh bialys on an airplane once. I was not popular that day.

posted by uncleozzy at 8:30 AM on October 5 [3 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]


False, because bialys are only fresh for the 20 minutes or so after they come out of the oven and absolutely must be toasted if eaten after cooling.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 8:56 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


She could also make a play to the conservative seats with some version of "I believe a marriage is forever" and it would be egg on his face all the way down.

Yes, this... I want her to be able to say, I took those vows for life, for better or worse, no matter what happened; I'm not bailing out on this because it gets rough or because of mistakes, no matter how bad those are. I wasn't facing abuse; I was facing a spouse who (sorry honey) hadn't lived up to his end of the bargain - and I wasn't cutting him loose for that; I said, you're going to follow through with what you promised.

And I will do that for America - I'm not going to quit when something's hard to cope with, or when it hurts me personally; I will support our allies because we have made promises to them; I will work hard to make America the strong community it needs to be, drawing on the good parts of our history and working to overcome our problems.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:57 AM on October 5, 2016 [62 favorites]


I want to watch Paul Dano play Eric Trump in a movie where he is once again beaten to death by Daniel Day-Lewis
posted by Senor Cardgage at 8:57 AM on October 5, 2016 [33 favorites]


maxsparber: "Because trickle down economics might not work, but trickle down hate does."

THIS. Needs to be in Clinton's stump speech.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:57 AM on October 5, 2016 [57 favorites]


absolutely must be toasted if eaten after cooling.

We brought them to relatives in LA. Jewish relatives. They were toasted. As good as fresh? No. But evidently you can't get bialys in the Valley for some reason.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:58 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh, and for people who want to know how the post factual world is taking things, apparently there is a very well photoshopped fake tweet being passed around, "from Kaine", talking about his wife asking him for an open marriage. I'm pretty sure this is originated in the "alt right" because of the cuck connection, but they passed it to the religious circles. That is, if you'll pardon my French, the bullshit fire I'm currently trying to piss on.
posted by corb at 9:01 AM on October 5, 2016 [50 favorites]


I wish I had some bialys. In fact, if I had a lot of bialys every day between now and the election that might help me get through the whole thing.
posted by Frowner at 9:03 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


"Tim Kaine's performance is likely to look better over time."

Whoever is working on Clinton's campaign strategy is a mastermind and all I can say is I'm glad they are using their powers for good. They got a solid 30 minutes' video of Pence shaking his head and saying that's not true! while in the background Kaine narrates the litany of hate Trump has vomited during his campaign.

I think their strategist might be Dumbledore.
posted by Tarumba at 9:03 AM on October 5, 2016 [38 favorites]


How well Photoshopped does a fake tweet really have to be to look real? I mean, select area, delete, fill white, Helvetica text, fin.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:04 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


How well Photoshopped does a fake tweet really have to be to look real? I mean, select area, delete, fill white, Helevetica text, fin.

You don't need Photoshop. There are websites that will re-create Twitter.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:06 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


If anyone needs a new phone background, here you go.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:07 AM on October 5, 2016 [27 favorites]


I KEPT MY VOW SACRED VOW Covenant.

The Protestant usage is 'holy covenant of marriage', as contrasted with the deprecated godless 'contract' marriage (and the Catholic 'sacrament of marriage').

Trump sees all of life as 'deals' and 'guidelines' to be shaped, formed and broken as he sees fit, and this philosophy extends not only to his business dealings but to his familial relationships.

Traditional Christian theology, on the other hand, sees marriage as a symbol of God's unconditional and everlasting love for humanity which is either unbreakable or breakable only under extreme conditions.*

*From a feminist and queer perspective, traditional marriage theology is problematic in several ways. But we're after different fish here.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:08 AM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


Hello, let's keep the shaming on cheating on and abusing one's spouse and be careful about shaming people for being divorced, please.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:11 AM on October 5, 2016 [36 favorites]


Yes, this... I want her to be able to say, I took those vows for life, for better or worse, no matter what happened; I'm not bailing out on this because it gets rough or because of mistakes, no matter how bad those are. I wasn't facing abuse; I was facing a spouse who (sorry honey) hadn't lived up to his end of the bargain - and I wasn't cutting him loose for that; I said, you're going to follow through with what you promised.

And I will do that for America - I'm not going to quit when something's hard to cope with, or when it hurts me personally; I will support our allies because we have made promises to them; I will work hard to make America the strong community it needs to be, drawing on the good parts of our history and working to overcome our problems.


I realize this would be a political statement in the service of (important) political goals and not a moral one, but I'm actually super uncomfortable with the idea that the presidential candidate I support should tell everyone that divorce is only OK in the event of abuse. Hillary Clinton is not a better or worse person because she is still married to Bill through his infidelity. Donald Trump is not a better or worse person by mere fact of having gone through multiple divorces (his conduct in and following those marriages is, of course, reprehensible) and I would love it if we could avoid stigmatizing people (and those close to them) who have divorced. They are not weaker, or worse, or less committed to the political future of the US.

Sorry again, I think I understand what the intention is here, it just struck me in a very personal place and I wanted to push back against this idea.
posted by Copronymus at 9:13 AM on October 5, 2016 [58 favorites]


Oh, and for people who want to know how the post factual world is taking things, apparently there is a very well photoshopped fake tweet being passed around, "from Kaine", talking about his wife asking him for an open marriage. I'm pretty sure this is originated in the "alt right" because of the cuck connection, but they passed it to the religious circles. That is, if you'll pardon my French, the bullshit fire I'm currently trying to piss on.

I suppose anyone who claims to be 'religious' yet would willingly accept this type of debasement-fetish horseshit from the rebrand Klan is not likely to vote Clinton/Kaine anyway, so it's probably not worth the effort of fighting. Far be it from me to kink-shame, but this alt-right obsession with cuckoldry and humiliation porn reeks of self-hatred as well as racial hatred, and I wish they would just keep it to themselves.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:14 AM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


corb: That is, if you'll pardon my French, the bullshit fire I'm currently trying to piss on.

I am out of Favorites again/still, so please allow me to stand and applaud sincerely for this figure of speech -- and for your real-life act of quashing disinformation. You're fighting a good fight there, ma'am.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:14 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Given that Trump raped his first wife and was extremely controlling and emotionally abusive to his second, I wouldn't focus on the "my marriage stuck" thing. Obviously, Trump is the one who caused those marriages to end, but it also implies that the women he was abusing shouldn't have left him. I KNOW that's not what Clinton's actual intention would ever be, but the whole sentiment of the idea rubs me the wrong way.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:15 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


Frowner: In fact, if I had a lot of bialys every day between now and the election that might help me get through the whole thing.

Sorry, Frowner, but coffee is for closers bialys are for Mods.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:17 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump is projecting so hard that if he does go after infidelity, he's going to lapse and say something like "Crooked Hillary cheated on Ivana in the 80s when she was also doing a ton of cocaine"
posted by 0xFCAF at 9:19 AM on October 5, 2016 [31 favorites]


The Concourse: Many People Are Saying That Donald Trump Is Mad About Mike Pence’s Good Reviews

(mostly linking for the story therein about Trump's resentment over Ivana outshining him as a casino manager, but I also enjoyed the title)
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wait, did Pence actually tweet "weakness arouses evil"?

The porn of it is already in production. Big twist at the end!
posted by msalt at 9:22 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sorry again, I think I understand what the intention is here, it just struck me in a very personal place and I wanted to push back against this idea.

Thank you, and yes... I can't figure out how Hillary can simultaneously talk about her marriage as an example of commitment to see problems through, without shaming those who got divorces. I expect that her campaign has considered that from multiple angles and probably has something much shorter and less detailed for exactly that reason.

I'm sorry for hitting people's buttons on this one; it's a touchy subject and many of us have trigger points in sensitive spots. Which, of course, is why Donald is trying to use it - he knows it's got a strong impact, even if he doesn't have the empathy to figure out why.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:22 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


Politico: Clinton dominating Trump among Florida Hispanics in new poll
Hillary Clinton leads Donald Trump by 24 points among likely Hispanic voters in Florida, according to a new poll that shows a significant number of Republican Latinos are unsure of their nominee for the White House.
...
Another plus for Clinton: the number of registered Hispanics grew from 13.9 percent of the total electorate in 2012 to 15.4 percent of the 12.4 million registered Florida voters as of the Aug 30 primaries. Since then, a coalition of liberal and pro-immigration groups say they’ve registered thousands more Latinos.
Nice job on hitching your wagon to the angry white person vote GOP.
posted by strange chain at 9:23 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wait, did Pence actually tweet "weakness arouses evil"?

The porn of it is already in production. Big twist at the end!


The Devil has a duck penis?
posted by Etrigan at 9:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


So we were talking about the VP debates and

50-year-old supervisor: "Hey, Liz? So what's up with this... this cartoon frog thing?"
Me: "...oh god."

And that's how I spent 10 minutes explaining meme culture, Pepe the frog, and the alt-right internet to my boss. I have reached Peak Millennial. Feels bad, man.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [123 favorites]


Third line down, it gets too long...

This is the
shortest
song
in the world.

Old school country music bandstand joke.

Appropriately accompanied by world's tiniest sad violin fiddle.
posted by spitbull at 9:25 AM on October 5, 2016


showbiz_liz: 50-year-old supervisor: "Hey, Liz? So what's up with this... this cartoon frog thing?" Me: "...oh god."

M. Night Shymalan twist: he was actually asking about Dat Boi.
posted by mhum at 9:26 AM on October 5, 2016 [73 favorites]


strange chain: Politico: Clinton dominating Trump among Florida Hispanics in new poll

There they go, whipping out that Mexican thing again.

HillaryClintonWiggleDance.gif
posted by filthy light thief at 9:27 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


I think their strategist might be Dumbledore.

Really? Someone who thinks that having a child abused for the first 11 years of his life - and then after it's abundently obvious he's being abused sending him back 'home' for more abuse? I really, really doubt that.

Is there any chance that the Central Park Five (and Trump's despicable reaction to the case) get the Alicia Machado treatment in the next few weeks?

Very little. She's smarter than that. Khan is a gold star parent and an attack on him was an attack on the military. Alicia Machado is a Spanish-speaking latina telenovella star and an attack on her is an attack on the hispanic community.

Every one of these little surprises is going to be not just Hillary Clinton waving a red rag to a bull. It's going to be Hillary Clinton waving a red rag to a bull while standing in front of a support pillar or something that's very expensive if Donald Trump breaks it.

The Central Park Five? If Donald Trump charges hard at that what votes does he lose? Who is likely to be that much more motivated to vote against him?
posted by Francis at 9:28 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


bialys: This is like biscuits a few threads ago (except I've had plenty of those). Do people prefer them with onions or garlic?
posted by kingless at 9:29 AM on October 5, 2016


Do people prefer them with onions or garlic?

Yes!
posted by OverlappingElvis at 9:31 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


I can't imagine a bialy without onion -- I've never seen one without onion in the little depression. Garlic is great, as is poppy seeds.
posted by maxsparber at 9:41 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]



Wait, did Pence actually tweet "weakness arouses evil"

What the actual fuck.


Arouse (verb)
1. evoke or awaken (a feeling, emotion, or response). Synonyms: induce, prompt, trigger, stir up, bring out, kindle, fire, spark off, provoke, engender, cause, foster; e.g. "to arouse suspicion"
2. awaken (someone) from sleep.

It's just a word, and a quite useful one in the non-Beavis & Butthead world.

"Whipped out that Mexican thing . . . "

OK, even I have to admit that this one is somewhat diverting.
posted by Herodios at 9:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Is there any chance that the Central Park Five (and Trump's despicable reaction to the case) get the Alicia Machado treatment in the next few weeks?
posted by one_bean at 8:50 AM on October 5

Not if she's smart. The Central Park Five are not universally understood to actually be innocent, and a lot of people sympathized with his sentiment in that case. It was a really, really brutal rape. She wants to keep with the Khans and Machados - people only a monster could hate.
posted by corb at 8:54 AM on October 5

Very little. She's smarter than that. Khan is a gold star parent and an attack on him was an attack on the military. Alicia Machado is a Spanish-speaking latina telenovella star and an attack on her is an attack on the hispanic community.

Every one of these little surprises is going to be not just Hillary Clinton waving a red rag to a bull. It's going to be Hillary Clinton waving a red rag to a bull while standing in front of a support pillar or something that's very expensive if Donald Trump breaks it.

The Central Park Five? If Donald Trump charges hard at that what votes does he lose? Who is likely to be that much more motivated to vote against him?
posted by Francis at 9:28 AM on October 5


I understand the politics might be shaky. But that episode is Trump's entire shitty campaign in a nutshell. And the fact that it might not be smart politics - because people might still think that they were guilty even though they're, you know, actually innocent - is also Trump's entire shitty campaign in a nutshell. I agree it might not improve her odds of winning the election. But calling it out, highlighting exactly what is wrong with Trump's fucking awful world view, is sort of what we need to be moving towards. Maybe if she has any cash left over she can run some ads the day after the election.

Here's Trump in the ad he took out in all four major newspapers: "I want to hate these murderers and I always will. ... How can our great society tolerate the continued brutalization of its citizens by crazed misfits? Criminals must be told that their CIVIL LIBERTIES END WHEN AN ATTACK ON OUR SAFETY BEGINS!" And when the city settled with them for $40 million, Trump wrote an editorial for the Daily News: "Settling doesn't mean innocence. ... Speak to the detectives on the case and try listening to the facts. These young men do not exactly have the pasts of angels." This is who he is. This is what he means when he says "law and order." The fact that it would be bad politics to point this out is disgraceful.
posted by one_bean at 9:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [16 favorites]


Politico: Clinton dominating Trump among Florida Hispanics in new poll

There they go, whipping out that Mexican thing again.


Er, um, uh, not exactly, no.
posted by psoas at 9:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


The Central Park Five are not universally understood to actually be innocent, and a lot of people sympathized with his sentiment in that case. It was a really, really brutal rape

They were innocent.
posted by zutalors! at 9:46 AM on October 5, 2016 [38 favorites]


Bialys, my heritage is middle eastern and polish (and Dutch and English, like most Americans, I'm a mutt), but my mom would make spinach feta bialy, and lamb pinenut bialys. So good. Now I want them.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 9:46 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Weird food fixation in describing the VP debate: Two Jars of Mayo Politely Discuss Politics: Liveblogging an Evening at the Vice-Presidential Debate (Jezebel's political coverage from The Slot, before the debate)

- Except Pence is the old mayo you found in your fridge that looks OK but is really rancid and unsafe for consumption, while Kaine is spicy home-made mayo that doesn't look all that impressive but is really, really tasty. (I do not want to eat either candidate, for the record.)

Colbert: "like watching a loaf of white bread get pistol-whipped by a jar of mayonnaise. Not a lot of flavor, but there was a clear winner" (The Daily Beast said that was Pence, because ...? It seemed like Colbert mocked Pence and Trump a lot more, perhaps exclusively, so I'm not seeing how Pence won there.)

And Mayonnaise Sandwich: Your Vice Presidential Debate Livemockery from "Crasstalk" (you don't need to read the page, bad comments and all that ...)
posted by filthy light thief at 9:46 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


If one of you is not planning on opening up a little deli or something in the near St. Louis suburbs, preferably between I-64 and I-44, maybe on a nice little street with an eclectic batch of restaurants and shops, like maybe between the Vom Foss and the Penzeys spices, could we please defer the Jewish food discussion until after lunch?

I'm not Jewish, but I am hungry, and you guys are killing me here.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 9:49 AM on October 5, 2016 [14 favorites]


until after lunch?

Zorak: We exist in a boundless time continuum. There is no weekend! lunch time!
posted by Existential Dread at 9:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


This is who he is. This is what he means when he says "law and order." The fact that it would be bad politics to point this out is disgraceful.

It's not bad politics to point it out and indeed I hope she brings it up at one of the debates. It just isn't something that will resonate at the level of Alicia Machado and hurt him badly among a voting block he doesn't want to lose so it won't be the highlight of Clinton's night and the rest of Trump's week.
posted by Francis at 9:52 AM on October 5, 2016


I know nobody is going to read this down here, but I watched the debate last night because my nine-year-old wanted to. About 15 minutes in, my 12-year-old figured out what we were doing an joined us. We had bingo cards, which kept it fun, but my 12-year-old is probably the most knowledgeable person in the house on the topic of this election. He was refuting Pence like a pro: "Trump didn't say that? There's video of him from a rally in Dubuque in March 2, 2015, at which he said..."
posted by not that girl at 9:53 AM on October 5, 2016 [92 favorites]


They were innocent.

Yes, but not everyone believes that, because racism. And especially given the recent focus on police brutality and systemic racism, anyone inclined to believe that a black person charged with a crime might in fact be innocent is probably voting against Trump already.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:53 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


From way upthread, to ricochet biscuit:

Between this and the God Emperor Trump stuff, I am now pondering a Trump-based Dune. Ivanka is Princess Irulan, natch; Christie is "that floating fat man" the Baron Harkonnen; and clearly the very buff Paul Ryan needs to step into Sting's aluminum jockstrap.

You have just ruined a fantasy of mine from when I was thirteen. Thanks a lot...
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:53 AM on October 5, 2016 [20 favorites]


I suppose anyone who claims to be 'religious' yet would willingly accept this type of debasement-fetish horseshit from the rebrand Klan is not likely to vote Clinton/Kaine anyway, so

Two things on this, that I think are equally important:

First, hard as it seems to believe, we are the only people who have this much information about what's going on in all corners, because we consolidate and have multiple views of the elephant, as it were. I only recognized this as bullshit alt-right stuff because I already knew about the weird "cuck" thing, and even then, it took me a half hour to realize. I knew it was wrong, because I believe in Kaine's sincere Catholic faith. But for someone who hasn't heard about it, and doesn't believe Kaine's faith is sincere, it's really plausible. By the time it's travelled a few telephone connections, the stamp of fake-Klan has been erased.

Second, people leaning Trump don't need to vote Clinton. They need to not vote Trump. If they vote for Evan McMullin or Darrell Castle, that's fine - it's not a vote for Trump and they aren't going to win anyway. It's one less brick in a previously monolithic wall that you really don't want people to start mortaring.
posted by corb at 9:54 AM on October 5, 2016 [24 favorites]


Weird food fixation in describing the VP debate: Two Jars of Mayo Politely Discuss Politics: Liveblogging an Evening at the Vice-Presidential Debate (Jezebel's political coverage from The Slot, before the debate)

So I'm reading and scrolling while eating my goto lunch these days, a turkey, cheese and MAYO sandwhich and now..erg. I lurv mayonaise....

Why pundits why?
posted by Jalliah at 9:59 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Er, um, uh, not exactly, no."

I know, I have very confused feelings about people using Mexican as shorthand for Latino because on the one hand it's usually the bad kind of attention so i can mentally try to disengage but on the other hand I know they mean Latino and it hurts that they just assume we're all Mexicans or maybe Puerto Ricans.

Like sometimes people ask me about taco recipes, meanwhile the first time I ever had a taco was after I moved to the US

Once a liberal acquaintance got kind of mad at me when I said I don't really know about tortillas and dips because they thought I was fucking with them. To me tortillas are omelets, not corn chips. I mean now I know but I didn't until I moved here.
posted by Tarumba at 9:59 AM on October 5, 2016 [16 favorites]



They were innocent.

Yes, but not everyone believes that, because racism


I'm not saying that Clinton should use the Central Park Five, but saying 'They're not understood to be innocent, and people agree with Trump' is just some feelings over facts bullshit that we keep having to contend with in this campaign.
posted by zutalors! at 10:02 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Amen, corb! Further to that, I sincerely believe that our society is a network and it dis-serves us to cut off pieces entirely, allowing the label of "Other" to strengthen. I completely sympathize with those who find that the threats and labels against them prevent their engagement and respect. But that just reinforces the importance of the rest of us keeping those threads strong enough to hopefully continue to (paraphrasing) continue to pull the moral arc of the universe.
posted by meinvt at 10:03 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


ChurchHatesTucker: YouTube version of the 'Indefensible' ad
At the VP debate, Mike Pence seemed to discover he was Donald Trump's running mate. He had a hard time with the news.
[Pence at the VP debate vs Trump and Pence video from prior events]
It's okay, Mike. We'd have a hard time defending him, too.
SO GOOD. SO, SO GOOD.

Compare and contrast: post-debate video from GOP - Tim Kaine Interrupts - it's over 4 minutes of Kaine talking over Pence, with a counter of the 72 interruptions, ending with the text "72 interruptions." [DO NOT READ THE YT COMMENTS]

That's it. No good zinger to open and/or close, no call to donate by texting a simple number, no message. In comparison, Donald interrupted Hillary 51 times vs Clinton interrupting him 17 times (article, not another dumb video).

So is the message that Kaine is a bully who says nasty things (in which he's just repeating Donald)? Because I'm really unclear on the message. Maybe they intended to imply as one YT comment says "If the American people are about to hear some Truth, interupt and stop them from hearing it." ... except it's not the truth, so there's that.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:03 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump wrote an editorial for the Daily News: "Settling doesn't mean innocence. ... Speak to the detectives on the case and try listening to the facts. These young men do not exactly have the pasts of angels." This is who he is. This is what he means when he says "law and order."

It's also stunningly hypocritical of him. (Shocking, I know!) I clearly remember Clinton bringing up a case he was involved in during the first presidential debate, and Trump defending himself by repeatedly insisting that he "settled without any admission of guilt." It's really just amazing what a hypocrite the man is.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:06 AM on October 5, 2016 [27 favorites]


OMG Kaine is annoying to look at on TV. That constant superior smirk is infuriating. I'm going to have to avoid watching him, given that I have to vote for the irritating git whatever he does.
posted by w0mbat at 10:11 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


This Twitter headline from my local Maine NBC affiliate is amazing:

@WCSH6: "We should let women make their own decisions," U.S. Senator Tim Kaine said- Here's why Gov. Mike Pence disagrees

(link to actual WCSH news clip with less interesting headline)

Of course, they're firmly based down here in the blue part of the state, and a different NBC affiliate serves District II (ie: the red/rural/harder to reach part). Still, I'm shocked to see the normally said channel 6 be so clear.
posted by anastasiav at 10:12 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


It got really hard for me when Kaine went "this is important, Elaine! "

It was super condescending IMO
posted by Tarumba at 10:14 AM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


I still like him, though!
posted by Tarumba at 10:15 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump wrote an editorial for the Daily News: "Settling doesn't mean innocence. ... Speak to the detectives on the case and try listening to the facts. These young men do not exactly have the pasts of angels." This is who he is. This is what he means when he says "law and order."

The mention of "angels" reminds me of his saying on Twitter that Hillary Clinton had held up Alicia Machado as an angel. Says a lot about who Trump thinks does and doesn't deserve to be treated as human.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:15 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Personally I didn't find the VPs treatment of the moderator to be misogynistic. Clearly like every other person did though so I could be wrong. It just seemed like regular moderator/moderatee behavior.

I wasn't really thrilled with the job she did overall. She was fine.
posted by zutalors! at 10:17 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]




I thought Quijano did a terrible job and chose terrible questions. The format was bad, so I don't fault her for that, but the questions were weak sauce IMO. Seriously not one question about Pence's LGBT record in IN?
posted by melissasaurus at 10:18 AM on October 5, 2016 [32 favorites]


> Personally I didn't find the VPs treatment of the moderator to be misogynistic

Yeah, me neither. I think they would've talked over Lester Holt (or anyone else who didn't have an airhorn) just as much.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:18 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yeah Tarumba, I too was somewhat put off by the way both candidates kept steamrolling the moderator. I mean, I know that part of the game is to try to control the mic as much as possible, but it still came of as two old white guys talking over the WoC who was supposed to be in charge of the proceedings. I was hoping that she'd snap and tell them both to cut it the fuck out, but it never happened. They both came off as pretty disrespectful, in that sense.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:18 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


two old white guys talking over the WoC who was supposed to be in charge of the proceedings.

I mean, she should have taken charge of it then. Both moderators so far have been weak sauce IMO - I don't think anything better will happen with Cooper and Wallace honestly.
posted by zutalors! at 10:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Also, at what point can we all finally agree that you don't have to be a fucking angel to be worthy of respect, both from your fellow citizens and from the law? Saying that someone is "no angel" is holding them to the standard of a literal mythical creature said to be the divine embodiment of goodness and innocence. I mean, what the actual fuck? None of us here on Planet Earth are angels. We are humans.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [57 favorites]


1,387 comments in less than 24 hours.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:22 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]



Yeah, nobody ever did that to Jim Lehrer.

Oh, wait, that's what we were all complaining about in 2012. Only that time the problem was that the moderator was an old white guy who should get off the stage.


"The question was about North Korea, gentlemen."
 
posted by Herodios at 10:22 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hey, I can wish that the moderator would show a little spine while also thinking that it's pretty fucking disrespectful and pretty fucking sad and pretty fucking predictable to see two white, male vice presidential candidates just talk over Elaine Quijano as if she wasn't even in the room. It's not just on the moderator to grab the candidates by their collars and give them a good shake, the candidates themselves are also supposed to be showing us what kind of people they are, and part of what I wanted to see was that they were capable of treating a woman of color with decency and respect. I didn't see that, and while it's not going to change my vote I do care about it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:25 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


> 1,387 comments in less than 24 hours.

That's what happens when Weakness Arouses Evil.
Tag line: "You've whipped out that Mexican thing again."
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:25 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


I like Tim Kaine a lot, yesterday's debate seemed uncharacteristic of him, and I think that's largely because he was less making the case for himself and more about forcing Pence to try and defend Trump's own words. When Kaine had a moment to talk about himself, such as when he talked about his faith and balancing his views of the death penalty with the oath of office, he came across as much better. But that doesn't really matter, no one is going to talk about that moment, but will instead talk about Kaine's interruptions and Pence's lies about Trump's campaign.

When 2016 is over, the GOP will pretend Donald Trump never existed
I fully expect the leaders of the GOP to say 'Of course Trump lost, he wasn't a real conservative', and for the devout Trump supporters in their base to say 'Of course Trump lost, Crooked Hillary rigged the system', and we'll continue to see the delegitimization of Democratic presidents, and American democracy in general.
posted by airish at 10:26 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


"... it still came of as two old white guys talking over the WoC who was supposed to be in charge of the proceedings"

Exactly, somehow Hillary managed to ace a debate without being a douche. We have different standards of social intelligence for men and women.

I do think Kaine became a lot more respectful after that, several times he restrained himself and did not respond and he was overall more responsive to Elaine's directions after he calmed down.
posted by Tarumba at 10:26 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


candidates themselves are also supposed to be showing us what kind of people they are

I agree with you and think they could/should have been more respectful to the process, but I think saying they were indecent toward her is a little strong.
posted by zutalors! at 10:27 AM on October 5, 2016




...could we please defer the Jewish food discussion until after lunch?

So it's a little later...how about now? Is there real bialy in Raleigh? Durham has a French bakery called Loaf that's supposed to have it.
posted by kingless at 10:27 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


A highschool debater would've had a card in their briefcase about Purvi Patel getting 20 years for self-induced abortion in Indiana but Tim Kaine didn't.
posted by larrybob at 10:29 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


I feel like the Purvi Patel thing, given that most people don't know about it, would take way too long for set up to be effective, although I agree that it's a monstrous verdict.
posted by zutalors! at 10:31 AM on October 5, 2016 [16 favorites]


If Trump was a little more self aware he would've tweeted something along the line of "Et tu Pence" last night instead of trying to congratulate Pence.

I still don't think Pence is going to be able to get the Trump stink off of himself but it was pretty funny watching Pence trying to disavow everything Trump has said.

Granted a lot of the electorate is perfectly fine with being lied to on a daily basis but I can't imagine that people on the lunatic fringe are going to like Pence throwing Trump under the bus and what percentage of Democrats are going to go "ohh that Pence is quite a gentleman!"
posted by vuron at 10:33 AM on October 5, 2016


Outside of the debate, last week College Republicans at the University of Minnesota sparked protests when they took part in a campus-wide student group painting activity.

Context: Every year, student groups are invited to paint panels promoting themselves on a covered high traffic walkway connecting the U of Mn campuses on either side of the Mississsippi river.

This year, the College Republicans chose to promote Trump's candidacy, including the phrase "Build The Wall". The mural was vandalized later (graffiti), and sparked discussion and protest. University President Eric Kaler addressed the issue in a campus wide email:

'[University President Eric Kaler] acknowledged in the email that students have found the phrase offensive, but he condemned the vandalization of the painting and said the campus supports all types of free speech.

“The University of Minnesota supports a campus climate that welcomes all members of our community and our values of equity and diversity, but that also ensures the free flow of ideas, even those that are offensive to some,” Kaler said. “We encourage all who find some protected speech distasteful or offensive to engage in more protected speech.”'


On the other had, there are limits even to free speech. I'm not sure vandalism was the right response, but I don't think that repeating Trump campaign slogans can go unchallenged either.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:33 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


I mean, I agree that it would have been better if the moderator had used a firmer hand with the candidates, and I didn't care for some of her questions either, but I wasn't watching the debates to pass judgement on Quijano, I was watching it to judge Kaine and Pence. The candidates were the ones who were supposed to be proving themselves to the American public, not the moderator.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:33 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


A highschool debater would've had a card in their briefcase about Purvi Patel getting 20 years for self-induced abortion in Indiana but Tim Kaine didn't.

They might not have wanted to subject Patel to that level of "fame". Sure, her case is in the news, but a nationally televised debate -- not to mention subjecting her to the Trump Brigade -- is another step up the Shit Staircase.
posted by Etrigan at 10:34 AM on October 5, 2016 [30 favorites]


"could we please defer the Jewish food discussion until after lunch?

-- I'm not Jewish, but I am hungry, and you guys are killing me here.


Seconding. FYI, today is also Tzom Gedalia.
posted by Mchelly at 10:37 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


not that girl: I know nobody is going to read this down here

What am I... chopped tofu?
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:39 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


i agree with the general take here that kaine went in to get those clips and sound bites. he wasn't even trying to win the debate as such.

i'd like to see what trumpet does next. this townhall thing is gonna be insane.
posted by sio42 at 10:39 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


On the other had, there are limits even to free speech. I'm not sure vandalism was the right response, but I don't think that repeating Trump campaign slogans can go unchallenged either.

I thought Kaler's response was terrible. He's not been a bad university president as university presidents go - especially considering we're not that long recovered from years of Mark Yudof - but "oh, we need to protect political speech" is incredibly hypocritical.

1. The university has been cracking down on political speech for years - when I took some classes here in the late 90s it was a very different place in terms of student engagement and visible student activity.

2. The bridge is maintained by the university - it's not a natural resource. The university wouldn't protect my political speech if my group got a board that said "fuck the UMN and all it stands for, especially [important donors A, B and C]".

3. What's next? It's okay to paint bible verses about how homosexuals are going to hell? Or start a group advocating for getting rid of women students because women belong in the home? This isn't some windswept corner where anything goes, and letting anti-LatinX racism fly is just saying that of all groups, they matter least.

4. I bet it's Kaler trying to triangulate with Republican political figures, alums and donors, and honestly, fuck that. Student wellbeing first.
posted by Frowner at 10:40 AM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]




Speaking of Pence and horrible criminal justice stories, Mike Pence Tells Wrongfully Convicted Man He Won’t Act On Pardon Request:
After serving 10 years of a 40 year prison sentence for an Indiana armed robbery and attempted murder, Keith Cooper was freed when eyewitnesses recanted their testimony against him, new DNA evidence showed he wasn’t at the scene of the crime, and a jailhouse informant admitted that he lied to investigators.

Five years later, Cooper filed a pardon petition that, if it were granted, would make him the first person in the state’s history granted clemency based on a finding of innocence. When his request was presented to the parole board, they found unanimously that he should be pardoned and have the two serious felony charges wiped from his record.

Now, after waiting for more than two years for Governor Mike Pence to act on the board’s decision, Cooper has learned that the GOP vice presidential candidate won’t — unless Cooper can prove to the governor’s administration that all other judicial remedies have been exhausted
Apparently Cooper has effectively exhausted his judicial remedies already (he took a deal where the court resentenced him to time served in exchange for withdrawing his petition to vacate the conviction, but wants the conviction wiped out to clear his name and ensure he isn't labeled as a felon for life). Pence's office refused to believe a letter from the public defender stating that he had no further options with the courts.
posted by zachlipton at 10:44 AM on October 5, 2016 [64 favorites]


FYI, today is also Tzom Gedalia.

Oh great. Another fast day. I'll just pretend I was too sick not to eat. Like the rabbi.

You know the rabbi. A man is sick and goes to the rabbi, he says, I'm too sick to fast. The rabbi says you must, it is commanded.

That day, while starving, the man sees the rabbi walking down the street. He's eating. He has a whole bag full of, oh, let's say bialys. Just chomping on them. Crumbs everywhere.

What gives, the man says. It's a fast day!

Too sick, the rabbi says.

But you said I had to! The man says.

I was smart, the rabbi says. I didn't go to a rabbi.
posted by maxsparber at 10:44 AM on October 5, 2016 [27 favorites]


The first amendment doesn't protect you from people grafitti-ing over your free speech because they didn't like what you said.
posted by Sara C. at 10:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


Frowner, I wonder if the issue is just that if he wanted to have it taken down, the most obvious way to go would be to argue that the slogan as hate speech (which I personally think it is, for the record) and have it removed on those grounds. Since the slogan also happens to be the signature plank in the republican presidential candidate's platform this year, that might court more controversy than he has the spine to face.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:46 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Cooper filed a pardon petition that, if it were granted, would make him the first person in the state’s history granted clemency based on a finding of innocence.

Wait just a second there. Are you telling me that Indiana has never let someone out of prison after it's been shown that they were innocent of the crime for which they were imprisoned? That up to now, they've always just kept people locked up even after it was well established that they hadn't done the crime? What the fuck, Indiana?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:48 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Not That Girl, my 13 year old is likewise better informed about the election than most adults. His friends too. They make trump jokes. I only hope they stay this engaged.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 10:49 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh, wait, I'm sorry. I misread. He was freed, but he wants the conviction overturned. That's not quite as fucked up.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:50 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


A pardon would restore his voting rights so Pence sees it as a net -1.
posted by cmfletcher at 10:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


As I understand it, there's a difference between requesting clemency on the basis of innocence (the governor grants you a pardon or clemency) and the courts doing so (a judge vacates the conviction). Presumably Indiana has had some of the latter, but never the former. Which is stupid, because the entire point of having pardons, at least outside of graft and corruption, is to have an extra-judicial relief valve to quickly and boldly redress manifest cases of injustice, but that would require governors to stick their neck out slightly, so it rarely happens.
posted by zachlipton at 10:52 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Still fucked up though? I would think that if there's a finding that someone should be let out of jail because they're innocent, that this would be an automatic overturning of the conviction?
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:52 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


A pardon would restore his voting rights so Pence sees it as a net -1.

I also don't see how having a felony conviction can possibly make it okay to take away your constitutional right to vote though so, uh, I guess I'll never be smart enough to run for Governor of Indiana.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:54 AM on October 5, 2016 [21 favorites]


Yeah, the university thing is kind of indicative of the larger problem, right? As a society, we have agreed that it's not okay to criminalize, or even censor, normal political speech. The idea of censoring a platform statement of a major party presidential candidate is insane, especially when the statement, itself, isn't racist. Building a border wall is stupid, but not itself morally wrong. Same with people shouting "Trump". But the problem is that Trump has started to stand for this kind of virulent racism. What do you do when the normalized political discourse is poisoned?
posted by corb at 10:55 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


ZeusHumms: there are limits even to free speech. I'm not sure vandalism was the right response, but I don't think that repeating Trump campaign slogans can go unchallenged either.

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:56 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


At University I did quite a bit of moderating and got a bit of a rep of being able to handle really contentious issues.
I have a lot of empathy fir the moderators. It's hard.

What tactics they can use is entirely dependent on just how far they are allowed to go. If it's clear from the beginning that the moderator has final authority to call a time out or 'just shut 'er all down' it makes a big difference it getting participants to reign themselves in.

After a few times the only way I would agree to moderate anything the least bit controversial or adversarial was if I had that power and had the full support of the organizers to use it.

It's one of those things that you do whatever you can to not threaten to use it but as far as I'm concerned it needs to be there so participant no there is a hard limit to what they can pull. I had to use it during a debate in the run up to the Iraq War. Did a thirty second time out, plus a calm restatement on expectations. It only took one time and a 'Gentleman do we need to take a 30 second break again?" for it to get better but after a few more times of that I would have shut it down.

I dunno what the expectations and the limits are for these debates, both official and unofficial. If the mods don't have the option or feel like they will have support for being more strident then it leaves them way more dependent on the participants monitoring themselves.

It's tough.
posted by Jalliah at 11:01 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


Exactly, somehow Hillary managed to ace a debate without being a douche. We have different standards of social intelligence for men and women.

I seem to recall the general consensus being "OMG Tim! Stop being a douche!"
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:03 AM on October 5, 2016


I can't figure out how Hillary can simultaneously talk about her marriage as an example of commitment to see problems through, without shaming those who got divorces. I expect that her campaign has considered that from multiple angles and probably has something much shorter and less detailed for exactly that reason.

Politics are hard, and that's one reason why Trump is flailing. That careful poltiican thing everybody hates is an important part of the job. I think Hillary can thread this needle and make a point about subtle pro-choice at the same time:
"Marriage can be incredibly difficult, and I would never tell a woman to stay in a marriage she felt she needed to leave. Sometimes it's literally a matter of life and death.

I won't even judge Donald for leaving his first two wives, that was his choice to make. But families are important too, especially when children are involved. I don't understand why he feels he has the right to judge me for making the painful choice to keep my family together.

I do know this. I respected my marriage covenant and my vows. Donald committed adultery brazenly, and bragged about in in the media. He even brought his mistress to a party his wife was at, which was reported in all the newspapers. I'd like to hear how Donald justifies his behavior, and why he thought it was OK to humiliate his wife and children this way."
posted by msalt at 11:03 AM on October 5, 2016 [55 favorites]


I'm right there with you tivalasvegas. It's just another way to maintain a permanent underclass.
posted by cmfletcher at 11:04 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


I also don't see how having a felony conviction can possibly make it okay to take away your constitutional right to vote though so, uh, I guess I'll never be smart enough to run for Governor of Indiana.
In my fantasy universe where I'm not too disabled to leave my house on most days, I would spend every last second of my spare time trying to fix felon disenfranchisement. I wouldn't go all New Hampshire on the issue, but voting rights should absolutely be returned after all sentencing and release conditions have been met. Allowing ex-cons to have a say in the democracy in which they live is a powerful and meaningful signal that they are actual human beings with recognizable rights, that there can be life after prison.
posted by xyzzy at 11:05 AM on October 5, 2016 [14 favorites]


I really don't think the Democratic party should be moralizing about anyone's marriage or sex partners (with obvious caveats for nonconsensual acts). It's not up to anyone but the spouses to determine what is and is not cheating and what is and is not allowed within the bounds of that relationship. I think Clinton would to best to just go with something like "Really, Donald? Really? You really think this is the most pressing issue facing our country right now?" (but more polished).
posted by melissasaurus at 11:08 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


The only word I could come up with when thinking about the Pence pardon refusal was: deplorable.
posted by OHenryPacey at 11:10 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


They should've gotten Marcia Fudge to moderate. She would've gaveled that shit down.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:10 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


Alright, Joy Reid just posted an interview she did with Carson Daly, and I am convinced she is one of us on this site. The interview is 4:30 long. Watch it and see the things she says and how she says them. Somebody who has a twitter account, ask her if she posts here. We don't need to know her actual account name, but I refuse to believe she isn't a mefite.

Also, watch her show on weekends. But yes, if any of you with a twitter account would be kind enough to ask if she posts here, that would be awesome. Right now she's on twitter talking about the vp debate.
posted by cashman at 11:10 AM on October 5, 2016 [22 favorites]


I realize this would be a political statement in the service of (important) political goals and not a moral one, but I'm actually super uncomfortable with the idea that the presidential candidate I support should tell everyone that divorce is only OK in the event of abuse. Hillary Clinton is not a better or worse person because she is still married to Bill through his infidelity.

And a lot of women who have been in that position made a different choice; and I suspect those women would be the most likely to think harshly of Clinton on this issue. Respecting their choice while asserting her own might be a hard needle to thread, but not that hard. It might even pay off.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 11:10 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


not that girl: I watched the debate last night because my nine-year-old wanted to. About 15 minutes in, my 12-year-old figured out what we were doing an joined us. We had bingo cards, which kept it fun, but my 12-year-old is probably the most knowledgeable person in the house on the topic of this election. He was refuting Pence like a pro

SecretAgentSockpuppet: my 13 year old is likewise better informed about the election than most adults. His friends too. They make trump jokes. I only hope they stay this engaged.

You raised your kids well. An update on [Jr. Miss] Trump, who barely won the high school election for school president -- she wasn't at school on the day of the vote, but when she came back, she was spouting nonsense about conspiracies she saw online regarding the first Presidential debate. She's solidly against HRC, and either on Team Donald or voting for "Google" Gary Johnson, most likely because of her parents' vocal views against Clinton(s). Apparently more kids joined her rants about Clinton conspiracies. My wife, the high school math teacher, credits these views to their parents.

These are kids in a small, rural school that is largely Native American, plus folks who live in the region, including some ranchers. For more context, one parent got upset because the biology textbook talks about watershed and/or riparian health, and that cattle can ruin these sensitive habitats.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:12 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


A pardon would restore his voting rights so Pence sees it as a net -1.

Untrue — in Indiana felons automatically have their voting rights restored as soon as they are released. This is in fact better than many states, where felons do not have their rights restored until they complete their parole.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 11:12 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


She could also make a play to the conservative seats with some version of "I believe a marriage is forever" and it would be egg on his face all the way down.

I said in the previous thread that if Trump brings up Bill's infidelities, Hillary should just shrug and say "Sorry, Donald, that was a long time ago. Remind me, which marriage were you on then?"
posted by Gelatin at 11:14 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


And a lot of women who have been in that position made a different choice; and I suspect those women would be the most likely to think harshly of Clinton on this issue.

I know several women, liberal and conservative, who are around Clinton's age and hate her, and they all left their husbands after they cheated on them.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:18 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Joy Reid uses the word "nothingburger" and I've never heard that term used anywhere other than here.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 11:19 AM on October 5, 2016 [31 favorites]


Trump raising Bill's infidelities would seem to me to be the perfect opportunity to whip out the old standby "I'm not going to dignify that with a response."
posted by Etrigan at 11:19 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


While we're talking about Trump supporters in high schools: Teens Suspended For Wearing ‘Trump 2016 White Pride’ Shirts To HS Pep Rally.

On a related note, NC Civil Rights Museum Receives Threats After Denying Trump A Tour:
After the International Civil Rights Center and Museum in Greensboro, North Carolina denied the Donald Trump campaign's request told hold a lengthy private tour for the candidate, the museum has received several threats, the News and Observer reported.

“The callers were threatening to come over and burn down the building and to shoot up the building,” John Swaine, the museum's CEO, told the News and Observer. “They’ve lessened in frequency this week, but they’re still coming in.”
This was the museum that said they wouldn't close down for 5 hours so Trump could be filmed walking around looking like he cares about civil rights.
posted by zachlipton at 11:20 AM on October 5, 2016 [33 favorites]


I still think the right response is for her to say "I'm sorry, you must have mistaken me for my husband." Why anybody would think that she should bear responsibility for her husband's infidelities is beyond me.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


Why anybody would think that she should bear responsibility for her husband's infidelities is beyond me.

Patriarchy.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [25 favorites]


Between this and the God Emperor Trump stuff, I am now pondering a Trump-based Dune. Ivanka is Princess Irulan, natch; Christie is "that floating fat man" the Baron Harkonnen

And Tiffany is St.-Alia-of-the-Knife?
posted by Gelatin at 11:21 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Jack Mitnick, Trump's former accountant, speaks: Is Trump A Tax Code Genius? Hardly, Says Former Trump Accountant
Donald Trump has claimed that the 1995 tax documents reported by the New York Times show he's understands "the tax laws better than almost anyone," but the accountant who prepared Trump's taxes that year threw cold water on Trump's claim in an interview published Tuesday.

"I did all the tax preparation. He never saw the product until it was presented to him for signature," the Trump family's former tax accountant Jack Mitnick told Inside Edition. "I’m the one who did all the work."
...
Mitnick gave a similar impression of Trump's involvement in the process in an interview with the New York Times. He said that Trump's first wife, Ivana, was more engaged in the tax preparation than Trump was. Per the New York Times:

In an interview on Wednesday, Mr. Mitnick said he could not divulge details of Mr. Trump’s finances without Mr. Trump’s consent. But he did talk about Mr. Trump’s approaches to taxes, and he contrasted Fred Trump’s attention to detail with what he described as Mr. Trump’s brash and undisciplined style. He recalled, for example, that when Donald and Ivana Trump came in each year to sign their tax forms, it was almost always Ivana who asked more questions.
posted by zachlipton at 11:22 AM on October 5, 2016 [23 favorites]


Patriarchy.

Well, yeah, I didn't mean that last part literally. I guess I just feel like that level of misogyny ought to be so far beyond the pale as to not merit a substantive response. But there I go again, getting "ought" and "is" mixed up.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


OK, I just did an on-site search for nothingburger and I have the options narrowed down. Joy, we're onto you! (And we love you! Call me!)
posted by mochapickle at 11:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


It is perhaps indicative of what this election is like that I had to click on zachlipton's link to make sure that those Trump White Pride shirts weren't actual campaign merchandise.
posted by corb at 11:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


Mission Accomplished:
With the dawn of a new day we can see one thing clearly, Tim Kaine went into the debate with one mission: force a week of rehashing and relitigation of basically every lie, crazy idea and toxic rant we've heard from Donald Trump over the last year and a half. Whether he made [Pence] ignore the attack, deny the attacks or agree with the attacks didn't really matter. As it happened, he got one and two. Here's the Clinton campaign's rapid response video lining up every Kaine claim, Pence denial and Trump video saying it. It's a classic Pence Said, Videotape Said thing. Everybody now digs into to see who's telling the truth.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:24 AM on October 5, 2016 [29 favorites]


And a lot of women who have been in that position made a different choice; and I suspect those women would be the most likely to think harshly of Clinton on this issue

I've mentioned my dad's haterade for Hillary before, but the all-time number one Hillary hater in my family? By a wide, wide margin?

My grandmother, who spent decades being terrified about her husband being unfaithful to her. My God, how she hated Hillary for staying with Bill after all the sex scandals, and would go on long rants about what kind of low-class, non-self-respecting woman would stay with a man who cheated on her.

As a kid, it confused me. As an adult, it makes me super, super sad, because I understand now that she was projecting her doubt and fear and even self-hatred. She was my favorite family member for just about the entire time she was alive, and in so many ways, she and Hillary had so much in common -- smart, idealistic, passionate women raised in middle-class families who became tough as nails over the course of their lives and were the primary breadwinners for a long period while their glamorous husbands were building social capital.

tl;dr: patriarchy, the game that sets women against each other.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:26 AM on October 5, 2016 [60 favorites]


"Nothingburger" on Talking Points Memo in 2011.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:26 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have said nothingburger in this thread and I am definitely not Joy Reid, if that helps narrow things down.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 11:27 AM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]




I'm having flashbacks to the early aughts, when a certain number of goons were convinced Jon Stewart was a Something Awful user after his use of "comedy gold" on the air.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:29 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yeah, I'm not seeing too much of a trend in the search; it looks most members who have said nothingburger have said it once or twice.

Note: I am not Joy Reid, but I do follow her on Twitter
posted by Existential Dread at 11:29 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Don't give up on Ohio.

@ThePlumLineGS: New Monmouth poll of likely voters in Ohio:

Clinton 44
Trump 42
Johnson 5

http://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/reports/MonmouthPoll_OH_100516/
posted by chris24 at 11:29 AM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


GOP asks which Trump-Pence foreign policy is for real:
Will the real Republican foreign policy please stand up?

The morning after Mike Pence offered core foreign policy positions that diverged from those of his running mate, Donald Trump, Republicans puzzled over what to make of them and what, if anything, they might suggest about a potential Trump administration.

Not much, was the early consensus among Trump skeptics.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:30 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


I was hoping for a spartacus moment where we all say we are Joy Reid.
posted by mochapickle at 11:31 AM on October 5, 2016 [31 favorites]


I think the gentlest of aikido is her best response to having the infidelity stuff thrown at her.

"You're right, Donald, Bill and I have had some very, very difficult times in our marriage. And we made the choice to work it out."

And that's it. Just pivot back to actual issues if he presses. No need to justify her decisions any further than that or be all NO U w/r/t cheating.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:31 AM on October 5, 2016 [31 favorites]


I wish I was Joy Reid, but alas, I am not.
posted by Sophie1 at 11:32 AM on October 5, 2016


Whether Joy Reid is here or not, this is kinda gross. If someone wants to use a pseudonym, let them.
posted by Orange Pamplemousse at 11:32 AM on October 5, 2016 [34 favorites]


Fairleigh Dickinson University’s PublicMind national poll

Clinton: 50
Trump: 40

Sep 28 - Oct 2, Likely Voters, +/- 4.4%
posted by strange chain at 11:33 AM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Nothingburger in the Washington Post, 1984.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 11:33 AM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


I saw that poll earlier today and considered posting it here, strange chain. It's definitely Clinton's strongest national poll in some time, and from a quality pollster too.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:35 AM on October 5, 2016


"Nothingburger" is first documented in 1953, apparently. Huh.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


[Y'all, let's (a) not read too much into political jargon showing up in more than one obsessive political wonkery context and (b) in any case not let the Hey I Bet They're A Mefite goofing stray too far into uncomfortable territory as far as site norms about identity.]
posted by cortex at 11:35 AM on October 5, 2016 [24 favorites]


In my defense, the interviewer didn't recognize the term either.

(dropping this now tho)
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 11:37 AM on October 5, 2016


Looks like it's safe for me to go back to 538 again! Cuz, you know, their models are terrible and flawed and clickbait when Hillary is at 55% but completely accurate and unassailable when she's at 75%. It's like Schroedinger's Poll Aggregator Quality.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:37 AM on October 5, 2016 [30 favorites]


OK, I just did an on-site search for nothingburger and I have the options narrowed down. Joy, we're onto you!

Urban Dictionary: nothingburger - we're not alone.


kirkaracha: It's a classic Pence Said, Videotape Said thing. Everybody now digs into to see who's telling the truth.

Wait, what digging do you need to do? Find the context of those statements that directly contradict Pence's repeated "no he didn't" comments? Because there's not a lot of context that would change those from "blatant contradiction" to "meant nothing of the sort," which is the only reversal that matters at this point.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:38 AM on October 5, 2016


Got it. I was joking about Joy Reid being here. I should have made that clearer.
posted by mochapickle at 11:38 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


"You're right, Donald, Bill and I have had some very, very difficult times in our marriage. And we made the choice to work it out."

Very nice, and subtle. I would add one slight, friendly, concerned addition at the end.

"It's tough, isn't it? What was it like dealing with infidelity issues in your marriages, Donald?"
posted by msalt at 11:38 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


Whether Joy Reid is here or not, this is kinda gross. If someone wants to use a pseudonym, let them.

We just want to shower her with roses. It's not like we're giving her a banjo or something.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:41 AM on October 5, 2016 [20 favorites]


filthy light thief: Wait, what digging do you need to do?

Those clips were short and straight cuts, not giving much room for sweet, sweet can type edits.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:41 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Soren, I put a lot of stock in 538's models, but I take their punditry with a grain of salt. I mean, it's no worse than most and better than many, but it's still just a bunch of (smart, wonky) people sitting in front of a pile of steaming entrails and trying to make sense of it all. Still, I tend to think their actual modeling is solid, if one doesn't try to read more into them than is reasonable. But then, I'm just some guy.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:42 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Roses or not, people should be given the choice of whether or not their real name is associated with their account here. It shouldn't be made for them.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:44 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


The phrase Pence in Gallicantu has been stuck in my mind thanks to Kaine's call out to Mark 14:30. The Church of St. Peter in Gallicantu is one of my favorite holy sites.
posted by humanfont at 11:45 AM on October 5, 2016


It seems everyone wants Hillary to turn it back on Donald if he brings up marriage infidelity.

But, I really hope she doesn't. It goes nowhere. The simple acknowledgement and keeping it about herself, followed by two minutes to talk about some actually important issue is the way to go.

At the end of the day, just because an attack turns out to be hypocritical doesn't change much. We all have our values, and we all go to sleep with a hypocrite each night. It can sound fun to rub folk's noses in it, but I don't think it changes minds - and definitely not unless you can directly connect it to some alternate proposed action. And that's where this whole line of counter-attack fails.

Presidential elections are not, and should not be, about candidate's marital past, and Trump even bringing it up will already smell of desperation. Just move along and let that stench linger.
posted by meinvt at 11:45 AM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]




I thought the "very, very rough stuff" that Trump wanted to throw in her face at the last debate was about Chelsea's parentage, not Bill's infidelity. The Chelsea stuff is straight out of the far out fever swamps and it is so far beyond the pale[*] that I could see Hillary being taken aback by its crassness.

I guess I don't get the infidelity angle. Is it supposed to imply that Hillary couldn't police Bill or keep him from straying? Even far out on the right wing, how does that matter? Bill cheated on you and so will Russia?

Or is it that she kept her marriage together in spite of Bill's lapses? That's the horrible thing? How? Isn't that the conservative position?

I know I'm not the target audience, but I don't see how any of these lines (even, or especially, the absolutely loathsome and vile Chelsea stuff) have any traction at all. Clinton can pin Trump down with a look of withering scorn and ... and ... what's Trump's endgame there? She doesn't even have to respond.

[*] Yes, John McCain, I won't ever forget your little "joke".
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:47 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Nobody here is out to dox anyone. Can we just drop it?
posted by mochapickle at 11:48 AM on October 5, 2016 [9 favorites]


I guess I don't get the infidelity angle. Is it supposed to imply that Hillary couldn't police Bill or keep him from straying?

Yep. Because there are those who think that no matter who it is who actually cheats in the marriage, it's the woman to blame.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:49 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


Alright, Joy Reid just posted an interview she did with Carson Daly, and I am convinced she is one of us on this site.

Joy, if you're here, tell us how we can get you MTP or otherwise make you Queen of the News
posted by schadenfrau at 11:50 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh look what the Wall Street Journal is covering now.

Extra bonus points for this being sent out as a notification from their phone app.

WSJ: Donald Trump Often Made Donations to State Attorneys General Reviewing His Business
posted by Jalliah at 11:50 AM on October 5, 2016 [24 favorites]


Yikes. Sorry I brought it up.

~End Joy Reid discussion~
posted by cashman at 11:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think Trump's angle is supposed to be that Hillary helped intimidate Bill's mistresses, or silenced his rape victims.
posted by argybarg at 11:51 AM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


I guess I don't get the infidelity angle. Is it supposed to imply that Hillary couldn't police Bill or keep him from straying?

There are a lot of people (on both sides of the proverbial aisle) who don't like how Hillary (allegedly) went after some of the women Bill was unfaithful with.
posted by Etrigan at 11:52 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


I guess I don't get the infidelity angle. Is it supposed to imply that Hillary couldn't police Bill or keep him from straying?

There are a lot of people (on both sides of the proverbial aisle) who don't like how Hillary (allegedly) went after some of the women Bill was unfaithful with.


It's a way to attack her for being a bad wife (which means not knowing her place, and also some critique on how much sex she coldly withheld, forcing her husband to look elsewhere because he has Needs) and a way to attack her for not being an ally to women. Although I am, and have always been, confused about what is meant by "went after."
posted by witchen at 11:55 AM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


Look, if Donald wants to bring out some of the really out there, super-gross conspiracy fantasies that people have about Hillary, he's welcome to. In the eyes of anyone who isn't already totally in the tank for him, it's just going to expose him for the complete loon that he is.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:55 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Watch: Mike Pence Shakes His Head at Things That Are True
Watch all the times Trump’s running mate shook his head, laughed, and/or said, ‘That’s nonsense!’ to things that have clearly happened.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:55 AM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


I absolutely agree with meinvt--the media is already doing much of this work for the HRC campaign by simply pointing out that three guys with nine marriages between them hardly have any room to be the moral authority on this one. Jake Tapert's palpable disgust for this topic seems to be shared by many of the commentators and pundits.

I do recall many women, including my own mother, being disgusted with Hillary for standing by her man. But since then I think that there's been some humanization that feminists and conservatives alike can applaud. Feminists seem primed to view the marriage as either transactional or none of their business and religious conservatives will appreciate the dedication to marital vows. Going further, even HRC's anger at the other women is understandable and empathatic and not necessarily a call to arms for feminists. I mean, I consider myself a feminist and felt no less angry and betrayed by the other woman in past telationships. Not the ideal response, but emotions are messy.
posted by xyzzy at 11:56 AM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


A while back, 538’s Farai Chideya did a join podcast with NPR’s Asma Khalid on the Republican voters. They’ve just put together on a follow-up on the Democratic voters. (There will eventually be a third podcast on independent voters.)
posted by Going To Maine at 11:58 AM on October 5, 2016


Even Trump isn't enough of a fool to lob her a softball like infidelity. Hilary has three different angles she could take on it, all of which are line drives into his face. She'd probably take the high route with something like prize bull octorok suggests. Reason #3,452,123,093 I could never be president is that I would immediately turn it around on him and point out that he's been married to Melinea longer than to either of his previous wives, and given precedent, how much longer is he planning to wait before he trades her in for a newer model?
posted by Mayor West at 11:59 AM on October 5, 2016


In the eyes of anyone who isn't already totally in the tank for him, it's just going to expose him for the complete loon that he is.

Not to mention that it will come out as, "And, you know, this thing, this thing that I really wasn't going to mention, with Secretary Clinton and, you know, I told myself I wouldn't mention it, said I wouldn't mention it, but this question about Secretary Clinton and the badger, you know, folks, really."

And the alt-right will cream its collective khakis, but nobody else will have any idea what he's talking about.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:59 AM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


married to Ivanka

In his dreams!
posted by mochapickle at 12:00 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


Though the Bill Clinton rape allegations are honestly troubling. If we end up with President Trump because Bill Clinton is a motherfucking rapist, I don't know what I'll do.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:00 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


In his dreams!

Eek. Freudian slip?
posted by Mayor West at 12:01 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


point out that he's been married to Ivanka longer than to either of his previous wives, and given precedent, how much longer is her planning to wait before he trades her in for a newer model?

I think the Trump projection containment field has failed and it's leaking into the rest of us
posted by strange chain at 12:01 PM on October 5, 2016 [12 favorites]


IIRC there was also a line of attack along the lines of "Hillary stayed with Bill because its a sham marriage for political power" which is super ludicrous, I honestly think she'd have done even better in her political career had she left Bill. It's just another part of that tired "I don't know why but I just don't trust her" thing.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:03 PM on October 5, 2016 [11 favorites]


I guess I don't get the infidelity angle. Is it supposed to imply that Hillary couldn't police Bill or keep him from straying?

It's...not that. Honestly, they could forgive that. The conservative position is that man is inherently flawed, and even the best of women will have a hard time keeping their men 100% true.

It's that Hillary seemed like it didn't matter to her - that her staying was not because she loved and wanted to help him, but because she needed Bill for her political ambitions. That she went after the other women - disparaging them in the press, dismissing their stories, etc - specifically so that his political future - and thus, hers - would not be impacted.

And that's what's unforgivable to them - making a mockery of marriage.
posted by corb at 12:04 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Why Did Indiana State Police Raid A Voter Registration Group's Office?:
In Indiana, an investigation into alleged voter registration fraud intensified rapidly Tuesday when state police reportedly raided the Indianapolis office of a voter registration group and confiscated computers, personal cell phones and paperwork, according to a report from the Intercept.

The Intercept reported that workers at the site told them that state police stopped one person from recording the incident and that the group's lawyer said he was unable to enter the building.

State police are investigating the Indiana Voter Registration Project's efforts in nine counties after claims that the group fraudulently registered voters, according to the Indianapolis Star. Indiana's Secretary of State Connie Lawson, who was a key sponsor of Indiana's 2005 voter ID law that went all the way to the Supreme Court where it was upheld– announced the investigation in September.

According to the Intercept, Lawson alleged that “nefarious actors are operating here in Indiana." The Intercept also wrote that Lawson had cited 10 individual voter registration forms as fraudulent. But, according to the Intercept, the state of Indiana doesn't allow voter registration forms – even those the group conducting the voter registration drive worries may be inaccurate– to be discarded without being looked over by the state.
This isn't Lawson's first time trying to suppress votes, and I doubt it'll be her last. And remember that it's not just Trump's people behind this War on Voting, it's almost the entire conservative movement.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:06 PM on October 5, 2016 [42 favorites]


"We'll get to Russia in just a moment. We do have that coming up here."

OH SNAP
posted by My Dad at 21:14 on October 4 [+] [!]


HOW ON EARTH WERE YOU COMMENTING ON METAFILTER WHILE DEBATING ON THAT STAGE, SENATOR?
posted by duffell at 12:07 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's making a mockery of marriage to stay? To do the predictable, hurt-wife action of casting aspersion on the other women who helped a cheating spouse violate their sacred vows?

Wow. The conservative mindset is a weird, twisted thing.
posted by palomar at 12:08 PM on October 5, 2016 [27 favorites]


As opposed to adopting a fake name and posing as your own spokesman so you can dish gossip during your divorce in the press, that's not making a mockery of marriage?
posted by zachlipton at 12:09 PM on October 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


but because she needed Bill for her political ambitions.
I get that this is a thing but I find it kind of hilarious. He's still crazy popular for some reason, but his gaffes with the Attorney General "meeting" at the airport and his trash talking of Obamacare are things Hillary has had to clean up. I don't think that she would necessarily be better off without him, but there's some trade-off for her staying with him for sure.
posted by xyzzy at 12:09 PM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


But then, I always forget the part where there's that rabid hatred of Hillary among conservatives, that anything she says or does is an excuse to trash her, even when the things she's saying and doing are things conservatives do themselves every single damn day. I forget that her real crime is not being the passive, silent, long-suffering wife who knows her place and stays in the kitchen and pumps out babies and never, ever tries to have her own mind.

Thank god I grew up in a liberal household.
posted by palomar at 12:10 PM on October 5, 2016 [18 favorites]


I thought the "very, very rough stuff" that Trump wanted to throw in her face at the last debate was about Chelsea's parentage, not Bill's infidelity. The Chelsea stuff is straight out of the far out fever swamps and it is so far beyond the pale[*] that I could see Hillary being taken aback by its crassness.

Trump has demonstrated -- as recently as the first debate -- that he swims in the sketchiest tide pools of right-wing conspiracies and believes that stuff. I hadn't heard the stuff about Chelsea's parentage (no doubt they imagine that Sidney Blumenthal is the father) but FFS, Chelsea looks just like Bill.

I would've have guessed Trump might go with the Huma Abedin + Hillary lesbian affair angle. Either way, she has has to murmur something about his temperament, after a long exasperated pause, and he's done.
posted by msalt at 12:13 PM on October 5, 2016


I forget that her real crime is not being the passive, silent, long-suffering wife who knows her place and stays in the kitchen and pumps out babies and never, ever tries to have her own mind.

You forgot doesn't bake cookies! SHE DIDN'T BAKE COOKIES PEOPLE!
posted by Talez at 12:14 PM on October 5, 2016 [27 favorites]


And that's what's unforgivable to them - making a mockery of marriage.

That's obviously not what it really is, given the offenses of Trump and so many other Republican men who continue to get their support. What's unforgivable to them is being a Democrat, and this is something they can slot into their worldview to justify their already determined conclusion.

I'm all for attempting to bridge actual divides, but you can't rationally discuss a bullshit fig-leaf with someone. This condemnation of someone else's marriage that didn't end in divorce is firmly in that camp.
posted by phearlez at 12:14 PM on October 5, 2016 [22 favorites]


I think the conservative position on marriage is quite in line with Trump's position: "Putting a wife to work is a dangerous thing." Everything women do outside of paid employment isn't "work" and women entering paid employment are assuming the risk that their marriage will fail as a result (and therefore can be blamed if the marriage, in fact, does fail or falter).
posted by melissasaurus at 12:14 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


And that's what's unforgivable to them - making a mockery of marriage.

But then why do they seem to be fine with prominent conservative men like Gingrich, Giuliani, and Trump himself making a mockery of marriage?
posted by Gelatin at 12:15 PM on October 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


It's only unforgiveable when they can pin the blame on the woman. 5 wives between the last 3 Republican nominees and 19000 infidelity scandals between the all male Republican architects of the impeachment doesn't merit notice, no mockery there.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:15 PM on October 5, 2016 [