aka Surf Music from Hell
October 5, 2016 1:33 PM   Subscribe

 
So it's Mike Patton.
posted by beerperson at 1:37 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Huh, that's fascinating. I'm not even remotely a musician or even really all that knowledgeable about music. I knew vaguely that distortion was a big part of the whole rock sound, but I had no idea that it was so absolutely critical.
posted by sotonohito at 1:49 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Distortion is what rock (not just metal) is all about, fercryinoutloud.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:52 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Apparently so, but I honestly had no idea until just now. Like I said, total musical ignoramus here. I listen to music when the mood strikes me and I like music, both classical and modern, well enough. But mostly I can take it or leave it and I don't listen nearly as much, or pay nearly as much attention, as a lot of people seem to.
posted by sotonohito at 1:56 PM on October 5, 2016


Raining Blood still sounds pretty fucking good.
posted by NoMich at 1:57 PM on October 5, 2016 [8 favorites]


Working in a rock band has opened my brain to how important different distortion pedals and filters are to the sounds we hear in all sorts of popular music. If you're interested in this, I highly recommend "It Might Get Loud," particular the sections focusing on U2's The Edge. He's one of the masters of pedals/filters/guitar tech.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:00 PM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Head-noddin' rock.
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:02 PM on October 5, 2016


he sure does like reverb tho
posted by gwint at 2:02 PM on October 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Surf rock and black metal are secretly identical -- This Exists vlog/episode, which references Trve Kvlt surf music (YT playlist), which is further described by Metal Sucks.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:03 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yeah, I think it would have been even better with a totally dry direct-to-board guitar sound. But this is still pretty funny.
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:04 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ah, flt's link reminded me that I'd seen this before from a different guy. Depends on if you want someone playing in a mask or not, I guess.
posted by gwint at 2:08 PM on October 5, 2016


Raining Blood still sounds pretty fucking good.

"Enter Sandman", too.

Surf rock and black metal are secretly identical

Which might explain why Guitar Wolf works so well, since their whole deal is melding noisy metal aesthetics to surf/hot rod rock.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:14 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


I liked them and I don't think the distortion is so critical. I'm not saying any of that was better than with the distortion, but I tend to like any music played well and those were played fairly well. These days if they're actually playing instruments and there's no autotune I'll listen, but that's getting more rare all the time.
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 2:18 PM on October 5, 2016


Heh, pretty fun. I do like the particularly surfy ones in particular; not that there isn't a decent amount of general overlap in the tendency of both metal and surf to use less-common scales and traditional dissonant intervals, but some of this stuff really does get halfway to Dick Dale once you drop out the crunch/sludge/fuzz feel of the effects chain.

Distortion is what rock (not just metal) is all about

True, and yet sorta complicated; relatively contemporary rock is definitely defined by the presence of significant distortion on guitars, but if you jump back through rock and roll history the first couple decades in particular sound more like this stuff than like the heavy distortion we associated with stuff like metal or grunge. Surf itself was very definitely rock, after all, and you look at the 50s and 60s and distortion was mild and usually more a melodic element or a semi-saturated rhythm element sitting in among clean guitar, horns, honkytonk piano sounds, etc. than the standout texture it often is these days. On Rocket 88 it was basically just a fuzzy walking bassline; early Beatles stuff was pretty chimey and clean; and so on.

My feeling is metal was more of one of the end points on the distortion treadmill than anything; it took a while for "wow, that sounds distorted, neat" to graduate all the way to the ultra-smashed "let's squeeze the clean tone in a vice until it reveals state secrets" sort of tone of that genre.
posted by cortex at 2:22 PM on October 5, 2016 [10 favorites]


I *love* surf music. This is exactly how I want my metal to sound. So, for reals, where do I buy this?
posted by Fezboy! at 2:25 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


Consider that arguably the first-ever rock & roll song came about when a damaged amplifier gave an electric guitar an unexpectedly distorted sound.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:26 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]




Surf is one take, jazz is another.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:27 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


These days if they're actually playing instruments and there's no autotune I'll listen

Not for an instant do I believe that.
posted by kenko at 2:30 PM on October 5, 2016


I knew vaguely that distortion was a big part of the whole rock sound, but I had no idea that it was so absolutely critical.

It's critical to sustaining the musical interest and listenability of metal because guitar distortion brings out the harmonic series much more strongly than a clean sounding guitar, especially through the still-favoured valve amplifier. Single notes and especially power chords (chords without a third played) in fact have a very sweet major third harmonic overtone in them that is sounded higher up in register. Of course the overtone is also perfectly in tune, like barber shop singing, whereas fretted guitar notes can never be properly in tune with each other all the way across the instrument.

This sweetness of colour and enjoyable 'filling out' of the harmonic series in the distorted sound allows metal's riffs and general musical attitude to extend itself in the opposite direction, indulging itself in all those dark dissonant scales, tritones, and stuff about death. The videos without the distortion make it sound like film music.

if they're actually playing instruments and there's no autotune

Pretty sure guitars have been the first thing they put through the autotune for a few years now. Country music was onto it first.
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:40 PM on October 5, 2016 [16 favorites]


The key is spring reverb.
posted by cazoo at 2:42 PM on October 5, 2016


Pretty sure guitars have been the first thing they put through the autotune for a few years now. Country music was onto it first.

That was what I was saying I liked about these videos. I didn't miss the distortion so much because it still sounded like someone with talent playing music, not a robot/computer playing music like is so common now.
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 2:53 PM on October 5, 2016


If I recall, the notes to Anthrax's B-sides record talk about the surf-thrash affinity, as with their version of "Pipeline".

Amon Amarth has some pretty Dick Dale moments.
posted by bendybendy at 2:55 PM on October 5, 2016


When I was in a satanic surf band, I used every bit of my heavy metal guitar training. Flat fifths, tremolo picking, tight melodic climbs. So much transferred it gave me such a head start.
posted by Brainy at 3:04 PM on October 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Distortion is what rock (not just metal) is all about, fercryinoutloud. ... I'm the first person to mention Rockabilly in this comment thread?
posted by King Sky Prawn at 3:04 PM on October 5, 2016


aka Surf Music from Hell

That's what the slap-back reverb is giving this non-distored signal. Would sound a lot different as a truly dry signal without any processing.

Yes, I am fun at parties.
posted by humboldt32 at 3:11 PM on October 5, 2016 [7 favorites]


It wouldn't even need to be from hell, it sounds so much like surf music, period. I know lots of metal guitarists started off learning to play stuff like Dick Dale, so it makes sense!

One of the only ones (this round) which still sounded pretty "metal" to me was Walk by Pantera.
posted by cell divide at 3:13 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'll never understand why people feel the need to deride electronic instruments and electronic musicians as invalid or "not real", especially when it's unprompted and totally tangential to the topic at hand.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:20 PM on October 5, 2016 [6 favorites]


My boyfriend and I have been working on a surf cover of Phobophile by Cryptopsy to do with our surf band. It literally is just a case of remove the metal drumming and replace it with a surf beat, and play the guitar parts clean (but drenched in spring reverb) with more triplet rolls.
posted by Dysk at 3:25 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'll never understand why people feel the need to deride electronic instruments and electronic musicians

If that's directed at me I'm not saying electronic music/musicians aren't real or valid. I just don't care for it. I didn't feel like it was that tangential because what I liked about these videos was the sound without as much processing be it autotune or distortion or whatever. I probably didn't say that very well.
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 3:27 PM on October 5, 2016


Primus does it well: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aYDfwUJzYQg
posted by mariokrat at 3:32 PM on October 5, 2016


This is always kinda fun but they still sound pretty identifiably like metal riffs to me - I dunno maybe just because I'm pretty familiar with most of the material.
posted by atoxyl at 3:34 PM on October 5, 2016


he sure does like reverb tho

I went to a Wayne Krantz guitar clinic. After, there was a little reception and he chatted with us. The guitar players of course wanted to talk effects pedals. Krantz told us that he had a period where he wasn't using any reverb, either on the amp (I think he was playing through Marshall heads) or by stomp box. This ended, he said, when he played a show with a bunch of other guitarists, and Jimmy Herring said to him, "Really dude? No reverb?" and he gave up the experiment.
posted by thelonius at 3:50 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


These videos demonstrate pretty nicely that a good riff is a good riff with or without distortion. Wasn't it Kerry King who claimed to be basically Dick Dale with a distortion pedal?

Tangentially, metal played on banjo and ukulele.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:51 PM on October 5, 2016


When I was in a satanic surf band

Well, don't just leave us hanging. What was the name of your band and where can I hear its music?
posted by Paul Slade at 4:06 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


My boyfriend and I have been working on a surf cover of Phobophile by Cryptopsy to do with our surf band. It literally is just a case of remove the metal drumming and replace it with a surf beat, and play the guitar parts clean (but drenched in spring reverb) with more triplet rolls.

Oh my god, I would love to hear this. Cryptopsy has a number of tunes that hide surfy melodic runs that could totally work that way, Phobophile being the best of them.

One of my favorite things about metal is the tendency of metal musicians to be fans of other genres of music and pull those into the mix. Keeps the sounds super fresh.

Also, not metal but still awesome melding of surf and punk: Agent Orange.
posted by Existential Dread at 4:07 PM on October 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


And this is exactly my metal band has a Horror Surf alter ego.
posted by sourwookie at 4:24 PM on October 5, 2016


Might as well just play heavy metal songs on acoustic guitars.
posted by straight at 4:33 PM on October 5, 2016


Might as well just play heavy metal songs on acoustic guitars.

I believe this is the link you meant to post.
posted by humboldt32 at 5:07 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


here's Cannibal Corpse with no distortion, less reverb, and no yelling...
posted by ennui.bz at 5:29 PM on October 5, 2016


Now do dance music without compression!

Then it just sounds like 80s pop. Compare this subtle remix with the original to see what i mean.

It's a big difference, but it still sounds like disco/dance music. Just classic dance music.
posted by emptythought at 5:57 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


So I was going to share a link to the MTV Unplugged concerts, but in examining the first one that came to mind, I guess they kinda cheated.

Edit: but here's slightly less cheaty one.
posted by pwnguin at 6:46 PM on October 5, 2016


Also, not metal but still awesome melding of surf and punk: Agent Orange.

Agent Orange are good, but they're no Man or Astro-Man?
posted by Dysk at 7:13 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's interesting that he threw Death into this, considering they're considered the first/one of the first death metal bands, yet also released the album "Human", featuring members of Cynic. That album, alongside Cynic, has tons of nods to jazz music, with some people even deriding Cynic as a jazz fusion band.

I think something is missing from this discussion, of which the main video hinges its entire hypothesis on, is tone. That guy's amp and the reverb on it make it sound surfy. You could do another video claiming that metal songs sound just like jazz music simply by emulating Wes Montgomery's guitar tone (once again, see the clean parts of Death's album "Human", and Cynic's releases).

Not only that, but that example of Meshuggah isn't a good one. Meshuggah is lauded for their complex polyrhythms based around a 4/4 core more than anything, with the guitars sometimes in two different meters entirely. How many surf bands have a drummer playing in 4/4 and 23/16 simultaneously? Likewise, what surf song has guitars playing in a meter such as these?

This is a fun example, and I enjoyed these videos, but they drew from a very small slice of metal. I'd actually like to see someone do this with a band like The Dillinger Escape Plan.
posted by gucci mane at 8:00 PM on October 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'll never understand why people feel the need to deride electronic instruments and electronic musicians as invalid or "not real",

The electric guitar is an 'electronic instrument' though. The problem some people have with music of the last 10 years or so are Auto-tune and compression and quantising (if they call it that now, I am a bit old), which are not instruments.

You can't actually have everything in tune, all the time, using equal temperament, but we've had a few hundred years for our ears to get used to it. But still our ears seem to yearn for pure intervals as heard in the harmonic series. Auto-tune can't fix this but it does seem to be applying a layer of steely rigidity over everything and it's legitimate to question that.
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:49 PM on October 5, 2016


Distortion really makes pinch harmonics ring out, and pinch harmonics are how you know the universe loves you.
posted by Rhomboid at 11:59 PM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Are pinch harmonics now very out of fashion? Feels like they peaked with this ridiculous solo and now they're a bit like bad 90s jeans or 'Friends' or something.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:59 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think something is missing from this discussion, of which the main video hinges its entire hypothesis on, is tone. That guy's amp and the reverb on it make it sound surfy. You could do another video claiming that metal songs sound just like jazz music simply by emulating Wes Montgomery's guitar tone (once again, see the clean parts of Death's album "Human", and Cynic's releases).

I think it's a much about playing style as tone (in the guitarist sense of guitar+pedals+amp+settings=tone). Clean guitar played with a heavy right hand and aggressive attack (bigger strings help here) will always sound more surf or rockabilly than jazz, and the exact same settings played more gently (or with the much higher string tension and to a lesser extent action of a typical archtop - the key is to lose the 'snap' attack of the string bouncing off the fretboard) will sound jazzier.

I anyways load up on reverb for jazz stuff as well as surf (though not to the extent of having the springs smacking into each other for jazz, whereas that's practically a must to really get the proper muted string noise sounds) just roll off a little bit of tone knob and play less aggressively.
posted by Dysk at 2:04 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


(Interestingly, heavy attack is not a hallmark of metal playing at all - quite the opposite in fact. There's a long history of thin picks, tiny low-tension strings, and economy of motion. The high-output humbuckers on a typical metal guitar will give you something of the same effect on the clean channel on a lot of amps though because they push the input in a similar way on initial attack.)
posted by Dysk at 2:10 AM on October 6, 2016


Nah, artificial harmonics never went away, at least not in metal. Here's an Alex Skolnick treatise on the topic from 2012.
posted by Rhomboid at 2:15 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also, on Crystal Mountain he's omitting the triplet rolls on the open low E, which would make it sound even surfier.
posted by Dysk at 2:16 AM on October 6, 2016


Nah, artificial harmonics never went away

And Steve Vai now endorses Antares' guitar-specific Auto-Tune product, so what do I know. But loving a guitar nerd thread!
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:24 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did someone say surf music from hell?
posted by Brittanie at 3:42 AM on October 6, 2016


Antares' guitar-specific Auto-Tune product

I'm kind of dubious that this will catch on. Looks like you need to install their hardware on your guitar, first of all. Big deal-breaker for many guitarists, there. Then they have to convince people that it won't stomp all over their bends and vibrato.
posted by thelonius at 4:10 AM on October 6, 2016


The Edge demonstrates a pedal.
posted by asok at 4:49 AM on October 6, 2016


Looks like you need to install their hardware on your guitar

No, the pedal board is 500 dollars or so and will work with any electric guitar.
posted by Coda Tronca at 5:07 AM on October 6, 2016


Thanks, I didn't get that far in their demo video I think. My bad.

The intonation correction seems appealing, since that's such a bitch on the guitar. (It's a lot more complicated than just making the fretted 12th fret play, although I'm not quite ready to drink the compensated nut or Buzz Feiten kool-aid just yet - good setup on a traditional guitar and keeping newish strings is close enough for me, I'm not making any Steely Dan records in here or anything like that).
posted by thelonius at 5:22 AM on October 6, 2016


It was only for a moment right at the end of the second video, but the Meshuggah riff honestly didn't sound all that different without distortion. I'm guessing that's because of the low tuning (well, that and they typically use extended range guitars)--doesn't require much distortion to sound heavy. In fact, too much distortion would probably make Meshuggah's riffs sound like mud.
posted by tehjoel at 6:02 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


asok: Huh, Bill Bailey called it dead on.
posted by Grimgrin at 6:20 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Did someone say Slaughter of the Bluegrass? No, but they definitely should have!
posted by FatherDagon at 7:42 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


The problem some people have with music of the last 10 years or so are Auto-tune and compression and quantising (if they call it that now, I am a bit old), which are not instruments.

It threatens to sort of get into the What Is The Nature Of Reality Itself philosophizing but I'm gonna object to this as a flat assertion as well: if we're going to acknowledge that techniques and hardware that contribute to instrumental performance are part of the concept of instrumentation—which is exactly what it means when we acknowledge that amp distortion, stomp boxes, expressive pedals, effects chains in general etc. are part of a guitarist's instrumental philosophy and sound and performance—then writing off stuff that has basically the exact same relationship but less of a popular mythologized role in live performance doesn't really hold.

Timing is part of performance, and there are a lot of really, really good drummers out there, and a lot of wooden metronomes. Compression is part of tone and is exactly what's going on as part of a lot of guitar effects—distortion is in part fundamentally a compression of the normal response curve of the input sound. Autotune is signal processing, just like a vocoder is, just like a talk box is, and engineers have been nudging the tonality of takes through tape tricks and manual tweaks for decades in any case.

There's fads and habitual overuse and poor musicians and engineers out there, and certainly trends in mainstream radio-friendly top-tier music production that change over time and leave listeners good reasons to be annoyed, but none of that is about autotune or compression or quantization, and none of that makes those things any less fundamentally instrumental than any number of other tools and techniques that otherwise get a pass for not having become (or, really, not having remained) targets of pop or audiophile ire.
posted by cortex at 9:35 AM on October 6, 2016 [7 favorites]


To be fair, when people rail against compression, it's not usually compression as an instrument effect they're annoyed about, it's compression in the mastering stage, trading dynamics for perceived loudness.
posted by Dysk at 10:11 AM on October 6, 2016


Sure, and beyond that they're usually railing specifically about the loudness war escalation of mastering compression beyond it's own genuine utility for high-noise-floor contexts like radio and into just silly-ass brinksmanship.

But it's also a really insufficient label for that complaint, and for every serious listener who casually makes that complaint while understanding but not communicating the nuances you get a dozen casual listeners who walk away from hearing that with the misapprehension that Compression Is Bad and that complaining about it is a way to win points in a discussion of music production. And then it gets hard to ferret out the complainant who knows better from the complainant that doesn't, the next time the complaint comes up in a pet-peeve context. And then I get all nitpicky and annoying about my annoyance.
posted by cortex at 10:36 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


And as a slight aside, here is The Taste of Chaos Ensemble performing Blood and Thunder by Mastadon and Apocalyptica performing Metallica's Fade to Black.
posted by misterpatrick at 10:50 AM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Cortex gets expansive about compression!
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:51 AM on October 6, 2016 [3 favorites]


I really don't see an issue with Auto-Tune whatsoever. It's a great tool for vocalists who have an otherwise amazing performance hampered by a few bad notes, while also being a really fun effect for people like Kanye West and Bon Iver who use it as such. It's funny how T-Pain and Kanye got shit for auto-tuning their vocals, yet Bon Iver did not, and in fact now having released his newest album is getting critical acclaim for vocal manipulation. Gee, I wonder why 🤔🙄

I mean, it all really just comes down to the utility of the tools and an individual's use of them. No one is going to yell at Skrillex or Deadmau5 for having side-chain compression, which produces a specific effect for their music (and many others'), but everyone gets upset at Hollywood mastering and the loudness wars. Metallica's St. Anger is an obvious example, but I think that production style could be used to great effect in another context. I don't see why you can't do Hollywood mastering that's loud as hell across the board while also being punchy and dynamic. My main issue is remasters of albums, where the original dynamics are destroyed by the remastering.
posted by gucci mane at 11:49 AM on October 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


And speaking of remasters, I'm on the bus listening to the 2015 remaster of New Order's "Power, Corruption & Lies" and marveling at how punchy it is. The drum in "Leave Me Alone" is great.
posted by gucci mane at 11:51 AM on October 6, 2016


As a rule I'm not nostalgic about the sound of vinyl LPs vs. digital recordings. However, I have one beloved old album that (scratchy as it's gotten over the decades) retains an ethereal open sound for which I've yet to find a CD/SACD remaster that truly duplicates it. All the ones I've encountered so far have a flatter more compressed sound; none have quite managed to match the shimmering atmospheric effervescence of the original LP. Since this is an exception rather than a rule, I'm pretty sure this is crappy remastering rather than an indictment of digital recording in general.

I'm about ready to buy a USB turntable and a track down a used-but-clean copy of the album at this point. I really do adore that stupid album...
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:23 PM on October 6, 2016


It's a great tool for vocalists who have an otherwise amazing performance hampered by a few bad notes

That's not really how it's used though. They put everything through it now and it sounds strange, given that previously we'd been accustomed to hearing vocalists and stringed instruments making microtonal compensations for equal temperament.

Obviously I'm not trying to knock anyone's taste and fun effects are there to be used like anything else in pop. But when everything goes through Auto-Tune it seems like there's a strange surface sheen to the music, and in years to come it may sound as odd as some of the intervals in meantone sound to us now, or as bad as the major thirds in equal temperament sound when you hear them made by a tone generator.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:02 PM on October 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


I really don't see an issue with Auto-Tune whatsoever. It's a great tool for vocalists who have an otherwise amazing performance hampered by a few bad notes

I have no particular problem with autotune, but there are very few cases where this is necessary. Vocal comping (compositing from multiple takes recorded in a single session, usually by just looping the backing track and getting the singer to sing the song over and over) is incredibly easy and accessible in the era of digital recording. Bum notes can easily be swapped out for decent notes, and any engineer/producer relying on autotune to sort things out didn't do their job properly in the first place.

There are some cases where autotune might be more useful as a tool, like tweaking a live recording, and other times or sound sources that make comping impossible or ineffective.

I don't see why you can't do Hollywood mastering that's loud as hell across the board while also being punchy and dynamic.

I don't understand what you're getting at here. "Loudness" in a mastering context specifically refers to a reduction in dynamic range.
posted by howfar at 12:09 AM on October 8, 2016 [2 favorites]


This video is a far better explanation than I can manage of how skilled singers have traditionally enriched layered vocal harmonies by using microtonal variations - literally, singing out of tune in places. This takes ages in the studio and years of practice, so modern pop producers can't be bothered with that and are naturally just going to run every vocal through Auto-Tune instead, and it sounds un-human, because it is un-human. Auto-Tune cannot be taught to make unpredictable microtonal adjustments that are pleasing to the human ear, and now nobody can be bothered to put them in afterwards. That's why so much of what's on the radio sounds 'wrong' and we won't be listening to it in 25 years' time.
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:20 AM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


It might sound dated in twenty five years time, but we'll still be listening to it, same as we're still listening to music from the eighties with drums drenched in digital reverb.
posted by Dysk at 2:29 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


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