The Fear of Having a Son
October 16, 2016 6:08 PM Subscribe
"The common wisdom, as research verifies, is that most men want sons. That’s starting to shift. Some men, like me, fear becoming fathers to sons." Andrew Reiner considers having and raising sons today. (SLNYT)
“I wanted a girl mainly because I felt it was harder to be a boy in today’s society.”
I can't help but think the underlying sentiment of men who don't want sons is that they have higher expectations on themselves for parenting sons than they would for daughters. The idea that boys have it harder than girls is laughable to me.
posted by a strong female character at 6:43 PM on October 16, 2016 [115 favorites]
I can't help but think the underlying sentiment of men who don't want sons is that they have higher expectations on themselves for parenting sons than they would for daughters. The idea that boys have it harder than girls is laughable to me.
posted by a strong female character at 6:43 PM on October 16, 2016 [115 favorites]
The idea that boys have it harder than girls is laughable to me.
Of course not, but that doesn't mean they don't have it hard.
posted by Celsius1414 at 6:51 PM on October 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
Of course not, but that doesn't mean they don't have it hard.
posted by Celsius1414 at 6:51 PM on October 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I can't help but think the underlying sentiment of men who don't want sons is that they have higher expectations on themselves for parenting sons than they would for daughters. The idea that boys have it harder than girls is laughable to me.
It could also be that they know what living in a culture driven by toxic masculinity looks like from the inside.
I chalk it up to grass-is-greenerism rather than a manifestation of patriarchy-thinking.
posted by tclark at 7:00 PM on October 16, 2016 [35 favorites]
It could also be that they know what living in a culture driven by toxic masculinity looks like from the inside.
I chalk it up to grass-is-greenerism rather than a manifestation of patriarchy-thinking.
posted by tclark at 7:00 PM on October 16, 2016 [35 favorites]
I think my reasons for wanting a girl weren't much more complicated than I was raised around a lot of women, the majority of my friends are women, I've always related better to women than with other dudes, and I thought that I might be better mentally prepared to help raise a woman.
Which I think just exposes my incredible naivety at thinking I could be mentally prepared to have a child, full stop. Being a kid is hard, raising a kid is hard. But the horrors that await women as they merely try to move through the world still very much exist. I don't think I'd ever characterize raising either sex as being "easier." Plus, every kid is different. My boy's a cakewalk compared to some kids I've met.
posted by Maaik at 7:02 PM on October 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
Which I think just exposes my incredible naivety at thinking I could be mentally prepared to have a child, full stop. Being a kid is hard, raising a kid is hard. But the horrors that await women as they merely try to move through the world still very much exist. I don't think I'd ever characterize raising either sex as being "easier." Plus, every kid is different. My boy's a cakewalk compared to some kids I've met.
posted by Maaik at 7:02 PM on October 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
I just don't understand this idea that raising a girl would be more approachable when both genders have to navigate a sexist world. The author never uses the term "toxic masculinity" but that's what he's referring to when he describes a fear of not being able to connect emotionally with a son. He doesn't appear to understand that the patriarchy is at the root of both toxic masculinity and sexism against girls, so he would have to deal with those issues regardless of what gender child he had.
posted by a strong female character at 7:06 PM on October 16, 2016 [49 favorites]
posted by a strong female character at 7:06 PM on October 16, 2016 [49 favorites]
I worry differently about my sons than my daughter; I feel like the general social problems my daughter will face are fairly clear and I know how to fight them. I feel like the problems with the social milieu my sons face are less clear, less-well-articulated, and hard to know how to fight. In some ways that amorphousness, of these problems of raising emotionally-healthy boys, really increases my anxiety.
I also feel like the social norms for raising (feminist) girls shifted a generation ago, so many parents are pretty comfortable raising their daughters as they/their female partners/their sisters/their female peers/whatev were raised. But the new social norms for raising feminist boys are emerging right now and it's confusing. I mean, my brothers are feminists and I feel like were raised healthily, but all the second-guessing my parents did with me as a girl, making sure they were raising ME in ways that respected an understanding of how toxic patriarchy hurt girls -- my generation of parenting is now doing that, widely, with boys, with an emerging understanding of how toxic patriarchy hurts boys. I do worry that my sons will be bullied or dismissed if they're sensitive and sweet, because not enough of their peers or teachers have abandoned toxic and fragile forms of masculinity -- but obviously I'm not going to raise them in the old, harmful forms.
I also, when I was on the school board, read through all these kids' discipline records when doing suspensions and expulsions -- 80% to 90% boys, and so so so often I saw boys who only knew how to express negative emotions (frustration, anxiety, fear, sadness) through anger and rage, because that was the only acceptable negative emotional expression for them to stay physically and emotionally safe among peers. That scares the SHIT out of me. That's hard to push back against!
I wouldn't say raising a boy is "harder" but I definitely identify with a lot of this guy's parenting anxieties w/r/t sons.
(And not to say that I couldn't do a solid hour on the special anxieties of raising girls!)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:10 PM on October 16, 2016 [78 favorites]
I also feel like the social norms for raising (feminist) girls shifted a generation ago, so many parents are pretty comfortable raising their daughters as they/their female partners/their sisters/their female peers/whatev were raised. But the new social norms for raising feminist boys are emerging right now and it's confusing. I mean, my brothers are feminists and I feel like were raised healthily, but all the second-guessing my parents did with me as a girl, making sure they were raising ME in ways that respected an understanding of how toxic patriarchy hurt girls -- my generation of parenting is now doing that, widely, with boys, with an emerging understanding of how toxic patriarchy hurts boys. I do worry that my sons will be bullied or dismissed if they're sensitive and sweet, because not enough of their peers or teachers have abandoned toxic and fragile forms of masculinity -- but obviously I'm not going to raise them in the old, harmful forms.
I also, when I was on the school board, read through all these kids' discipline records when doing suspensions and expulsions -- 80% to 90% boys, and so so so often I saw boys who only knew how to express negative emotions (frustration, anxiety, fear, sadness) through anger and rage, because that was the only acceptable negative emotional expression for them to stay physically and emotionally safe among peers. That scares the SHIT out of me. That's hard to push back against!
I wouldn't say raising a boy is "harder" but I definitely identify with a lot of this guy's parenting anxieties w/r/t sons.
(And not to say that I couldn't do a solid hour on the special anxieties of raising girls!)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:10 PM on October 16, 2016 [78 favorites]
I was much too worried about raising any child adequately to quibble about their gender...
posted by jim in austin at 7:11 PM on October 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 7:11 PM on October 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
Eyebrows McGee: the new social norms for raising feminist boys are emerging right now and it's confusing.
This hadn't occurred to me, but yeah. It really does feel like the notion of men being feminists has--if not emerged recently--has really become widely accepted in our culture pretty recently. And for me and everyone I know, we came to feminism on our own. I certainly wasn't raised with it.
posted by Maaik at 7:24 PM on October 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
This hadn't occurred to me, but yeah. It really does feel like the notion of men being feminists has--if not emerged recently--has really become widely accepted in our culture pretty recently. And for me and everyone I know, we came to feminism on our own. I certainly wasn't raised with it.
posted by Maaik at 7:24 PM on October 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
Of course trying to buck the norm is tough. Of course trying to do something different to what you were taught is tough. Of course it is even tougher when you have to teach your kid to do it, knowing that the rest of the world isn't necessarily going to agree with what you are teaching them; that they are likely to have to suffer taunts and jibes or bullying or perhaps worse. Of course you might have some unpleasant feelings on the way. But this is how change happens. This is how you make the world a better place.
Not to mention that if he were serious about wanting to make the world better for any girl-children he might have in the future, raising a boy to be less toxic-ly masculine would be a fine way to go about it. And if he and others like him who are afraid of the challenge would step up and try to be equal to the task, it would get easier for their kids. All of them.
I don't have a lot of sympathy for him. I feel like this article is him crying and throwing his toys on the floor because it's too hard. I'm not his mummy so I'm not going to soothe him and give him a cookie for recognising that it is hard to change, it is hard to fight against sexism, it is hard to undermine how the heteropatriarchy affects ALL OF US.
And I sincerely hope that his child doesn't turn out to be genderqueer, or agender, or genderfluid, or anything other than a "son" or a "daughter", because they're not likely to get much help from him in that case either.
posted by Athanassiel at 7:34 PM on October 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
Not to mention that if he were serious about wanting to make the world better for any girl-children he might have in the future, raising a boy to be less toxic-ly masculine would be a fine way to go about it. And if he and others like him who are afraid of the challenge would step up and try to be equal to the task, it would get easier for their kids. All of them.
I don't have a lot of sympathy for him. I feel like this article is him crying and throwing his toys on the floor because it's too hard. I'm not his mummy so I'm not going to soothe him and give him a cookie for recognising that it is hard to change, it is hard to fight against sexism, it is hard to undermine how the heteropatriarchy affects ALL OF US.
And I sincerely hope that his child doesn't turn out to be genderqueer, or agender, or genderfluid, or anything other than a "son" or a "daughter", because they're not likely to get much help from him in that case either.
posted by Athanassiel at 7:34 PM on October 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
if he were serious about wanting to make the world better for any girl-children he might have in the future, raising a boy to be less toxic-ly masculine would be a fine way to go about it. And if he and others like him who are afraid of the challenge would step up and try to be equal to the task, it would get easier for their kids. All of them.
Yes. This.
posted by a strong female character at 7:38 PM on October 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes. This.
posted by a strong female character at 7:38 PM on October 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't think it's entirely fair to say that they have higher expectations of themselves as a general rule. I suspect that there are different challenges for kids of each gender (and many overlapping), and men will be more aware of the challenges boys face than girls, just by virtue of experience. And one of the men also noted that he just doesn't feel like he fit the social norms of masculinity. So, as noted above, you may get a bit grass is greener phenomenon.
The men the article discusses seem to try to understand what girls have to face. Which is good! And they want to raise women who "transcend their sexist conditions." Also good!
But it did strike me as a bit superficial: we want to empower our daughters, with no real discussion on what that means. It came off as a bit...naive? Like, it's easy to raise girls! We just have to teach them how to fight the patriarchy! But boys are hard because it's gonna require nuance to navigate toxic masculinity so they become neither victims nor oppressors! So there's two things to think about with boys, vs just one with girls. But the one thing for girls is so much easier said than done, and I don't think it's easy to fully understand how that can play out even as a woman.
But I suspect that part of the shallowness, which felt dismissive at first glance, is due to the fact that the article wasn't long enough to really delve deeply into the issues faced by either gender.
There was one thing that did actually enrage me a bit for a moment: "Boys don’t always know how to ask for what they want.”
Kids! Kids don't always know how to ask for what they want. Some adults don't even manage it well.
But I'm glad it's started a discussion and calls attention to the fact that patriarchy sucks for boys and girls. That fixing it will be beneficial for everyone.
posted by ghost phoneme at 7:39 PM on October 16, 2016 [9 favorites]
The men the article discusses seem to try to understand what girls have to face. Which is good! And they want to raise women who "transcend their sexist conditions." Also good!
But it did strike me as a bit superficial: we want to empower our daughters, with no real discussion on what that means. It came off as a bit...naive? Like, it's easy to raise girls! We just have to teach them how to fight the patriarchy! But boys are hard because it's gonna require nuance to navigate toxic masculinity so they become neither victims nor oppressors! So there's two things to think about with boys, vs just one with girls. But the one thing for girls is so much easier said than done, and I don't think it's easy to fully understand how that can play out even as a woman.
But I suspect that part of the shallowness, which felt dismissive at first glance, is due to the fact that the article wasn't long enough to really delve deeply into the issues faced by either gender.
There was one thing that did actually enrage me a bit for a moment: "Boys don’t always know how to ask for what they want.”
Kids! Kids don't always know how to ask for what they want. Some adults don't even manage it well.
But I'm glad it's started a discussion and calls attention to the fact that patriarchy sucks for boys and girls. That fixing it will be beneficial for everyone.
posted by ghost phoneme at 7:39 PM on October 16, 2016 [9 favorites]
For some reason I always assumed I'd have a daughter, so when I found out we were having a boy, I was... not disappointed, but maybe a bit taken aback. I think the point above about grass-is-greenerism is dead on: people are intimate with the problems they faced growing up as one gender (or culture) and the problems associated with another aren't as real to them. The bit about physical interaction with boys being suppressed was interesting.
posted by phooky at 7:39 PM on October 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by phooky at 7:39 PM on October 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
We parents all have our own stories. They could fill a hundred posts. I wanted a girl, and got one. I don't know why I wanted a girl. My wife didn't. She remembered her adolescence and did not want to be a mother to a girl like she was (a 60's rebel). Why did I want a girl? I don't know. But it may have been because of the torturous/tortuous path I had to negotiate as a boy, learning how to negotiate gender norms. I was not naturally given to manhood, as I was a born aesthete, and a nature boy. I didn't realize how difficult this was for me at the time, because in the mid-20th century, "gender formation" was not a thing. Plus, when you're a kid, that term wouldn't mean anything, anyway.
Anyway, our 3rd wave feminist 20-something is doing brilliantly, so all is well. Parenthood, often accidental, works out well in the end. Don't worry about it. Children turn into adults, and their parents and teachers have little to do with it. I think it's genetics, but it could be karma. How would I know?
posted by kozad at 7:48 PM on October 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Anyway, our 3rd wave feminist 20-something is doing brilliantly, so all is well. Parenthood, often accidental, works out well in the end. Don't worry about it. Children turn into adults, and their parents and teachers have little to do with it. I think it's genetics, but it could be karma. How would I know?
posted by kozad at 7:48 PM on October 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
The fear that rape culture will make them a villain. My fear for having a daughter is that they'll be a victim. The recent locker-room talk worries me so much that people think that's normal... our kids are listening.
posted by adept256 at 8:07 PM on October 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 8:07 PM on October 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
Mod note: Several comments removed, by a disguised troll and then the responses. Please reload before responding to anything particularly incendiary and hit the contact form if you have questions about where your comment went!
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 8:08 PM on October 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 8:08 PM on October 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
The idea that boys have it harder than girls is laughable to me.
Strong female character, you've obviously never been a boy. You can say it doesn't sound right to you, but until you've been a boy you don't know. There is all kinds of shit that's truly horrible about being a boy, just as there's all kinds of shit that's horrible about being a girl.
My time as a femme trans lady has definitely given me insights into the American female experience I wouldn't have had otherwise. Why yes, guys can indeed be gross, grabby, entitled monsters sometimes! Beauty culture can sure do a number on your head! But I grew up a miserable boy, routinely getting the shit kicked out of me on the playground. I was expected to be dirty and noisy and aggro, and I was treated like a freak because I wasn't. There was this constant, crushing pressure to talk a certain way, to walk a certain way, to shut down my emotions and be mean and cold and follow this ghastly masculine script. Any deviation from the man script was treated with contempt. It was worst from the other kids, but we were also closely policed by grown men and women. Half the crazy fuckers who end up going on shooting sprees are boys who just felt like they couldn't live up to this insane code of what makes a man a "man." They get this bullshit forced down their throats from day one, and it ruins them. It's called toxic masculinity for a reason.
I'm not gonna say that the idea that boys have it better is laughable. It's an individual thing, obviously. But Jesus, I would have given my fucking left eye to grow up as a girl. From the radioactive waste dump where I was standing, the grass on the other side of the fence sure looked green and purty.
Unsubscribing from this thread before I get pulled into any stupid flamewars. I said what I said and I'm out.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 8:08 PM on October 16, 2016 [66 favorites]
Strong female character, you've obviously never been a boy. You can say it doesn't sound right to you, but until you've been a boy you don't know. There is all kinds of shit that's truly horrible about being a boy, just as there's all kinds of shit that's horrible about being a girl.
My time as a femme trans lady has definitely given me insights into the American female experience I wouldn't have had otherwise. Why yes, guys can indeed be gross, grabby, entitled monsters sometimes! Beauty culture can sure do a number on your head! But I grew up a miserable boy, routinely getting the shit kicked out of me on the playground. I was expected to be dirty and noisy and aggro, and I was treated like a freak because I wasn't. There was this constant, crushing pressure to talk a certain way, to walk a certain way, to shut down my emotions and be mean and cold and follow this ghastly masculine script. Any deviation from the man script was treated with contempt. It was worst from the other kids, but we were also closely policed by grown men and women. Half the crazy fuckers who end up going on shooting sprees are boys who just felt like they couldn't live up to this insane code of what makes a man a "man." They get this bullshit forced down their throats from day one, and it ruins them. It's called toxic masculinity for a reason.
I'm not gonna say that the idea that boys have it better is laughable. It's an individual thing, obviously. But Jesus, I would have given my fucking left eye to grow up as a girl. From the radioactive waste dump where I was standing, the grass on the other side of the fence sure looked green and purty.
Unsubscribing from this thread before I get pulled into any stupid flamewars. I said what I said and I'm out.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 8:08 PM on October 16, 2016 [66 favorites]
I thought the article was the author's proof to himself that he has a navel.
My partner was really frightened that we'd have a girl. Really upset about the odds. I really wanted to know why and her best explanation had something to do with having been a tomboy and the sheer horror she'd feel if our daughter were to turn out "girly".
It was a boy and we didn't have to worry about that. I've never heard him generalize about females and I'd like to take credit for that but I think much of it has to do with his mom, my mom, and a girl he befriended at the library before he could walk who you will probably see in the Olympics.
I don't think I would have been any different, but I wonder.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 8:10 PM on October 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
My partner was really frightened that we'd have a girl. Really upset about the odds. I really wanted to know why and her best explanation had something to do with having been a tomboy and the sheer horror she'd feel if our daughter were to turn out "girly".
It was a boy and we didn't have to worry about that. I've never heard him generalize about females and I'd like to take credit for that but I think much of it has to do with his mom, my mom, and a girl he befriended at the library before he could walk who you will probably see in the Olympics.
I don't think I would have been any different, but I wonder.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 8:10 PM on October 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's weird; every single pregnant woman I've ever known in real life has said she would prefer to have a boy, because "boys are just easier." I think there really is something to that greener grass theory.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:34 PM on October 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:34 PM on October 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
I didn't know it was such a common opinion, or feeling, but it's one I share. I'm glad Mrs K and I had girls, not boys.
Two reasons: I was raised by a father who almost always did the right thing, except only knowing the tools of anger and put-down when he felt someone else didn't. The fear of continuing the trend is real, and trends are easier to break when other patterns are different too.
Also, while I don't think boys have a harder life, it does feel easier to raise girls into great women than boys into great or even decent men. Among other things, I feel I'm giving my girls mostly positive messages (you can be this, you can and absolutely should do that), and I'd be giving boys messages in the negative (don't be like this, for goodness' sake don't ever do that).
Finally, reading what Eyebrows McGee and Ursula Hitler said. Yep, so much that.
posted by kandinski at 8:42 PM on October 16, 2016 [13 favorites]
Two reasons: I was raised by a father who almost always did the right thing, except only knowing the tools of anger and put-down when he felt someone else didn't. The fear of continuing the trend is real, and trends are easier to break when other patterns are different too.
Also, while I don't think boys have a harder life, it does feel easier to raise girls into great women than boys into great or even decent men. Among other things, I feel I'm giving my girls mostly positive messages (you can be this, you can and absolutely should do that), and I'd be giving boys messages in the negative (don't be like this, for goodness' sake don't ever do that).
Finally, reading what Eyebrows McGee and Ursula Hitler said. Yep, so much that.
posted by kandinski at 8:42 PM on October 16, 2016 [13 favorites]
Probably worth pointing out that, while girls are bullied as much or more than boys - just as women are abused and murdered as much or more than boys - bullies (and abusers, and murderers) are much more often male than female. So - at least in this statistical sense, and there are certainly other angles to look at - it does make a lot of sense to be more worried about having boys than girls; just not so much because you're worried about them being victims of bullying or violence.
Of course, I'm a rather jaded man who's generally sick of his gender, so take that as you will.
posted by koeselitz at 8:52 PM on October 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
Of course, I'm a rather jaded man who's generally sick of his gender, so take that as you will.
posted by koeselitz at 8:52 PM on October 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think what Ursula Hitler said here (and in other threads) is extremely valuable -- trans women and men have experiences that cis people like me could only imagine (and I surely fail). They have seen in their lives both sides of what each gender has to put up with. I don't know what flamewar happened, but it does us all a disservice to make trans women or men feel like they have to bow out of threads on gender topics.
posted by tclark at 8:54 PM on October 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by tclark at 8:54 PM on October 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
we wanted dogs, not boys or girls. We were sadly disappointed.
posted by greenhornet at 8:56 PM on October 16, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by greenhornet at 8:56 PM on October 16, 2016 [9 favorites]
I have one of each and have different fears for each child. I preferred a girl the first time around (I'm their mother) because I thought it would be easier, as I am one of three girls and have a lot of childhood memories of what being a girl feels like. I felt being a mom would be tricky enough without the terra incognita of boyhood to navigate. I bore close witness to three very different girlhoods but had never lived with a little boy before we welcomed my son.
In short, I feel that people who think boys or girls will be "easier" come off pretty myopic. You have no idea who your kids will be or the unique challenges they'll face.
I worry mostly that my husband and I both bring our own brands of sexism into parenting, and they are unfortunately pretty different brands, and quite often in conflict. I'm afraid they will get really mixed messages at home about what it means to be a boy or a girl and that they'll therefore turn to friends at school to help them understand how to be. But this is a parenting-in-general worry and about equally awkward for both boys and girls.
posted by the marble index at 9:14 PM on October 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
In short, I feel that people who think boys or girls will be "easier" come off pretty myopic. You have no idea who your kids will be or the unique challenges they'll face.
I worry mostly that my husband and I both bring our own brands of sexism into parenting, and they are unfortunately pretty different brands, and quite often in conflict. I'm afraid they will get really mixed messages at home about what it means to be a boy or a girl and that they'll therefore turn to friends at school to help them understand how to be. But this is a parenting-in-general worry and about equally awkward for both boys and girls.
posted by the marble index at 9:14 PM on October 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
There's such a hatred of men in parts of society today. It isn't universal (thank goodness), but it's a growing part of the dynamic. And it often comes most strongly from men, who have been taught to loath themselves and the idea of masculinity. The author of this article seems to have a strong dose of that self loathing. But maybe raising a son is the best thing he can do, because watching the boy grow and helplessly loving the child for who he is (as parents do) will teach him that there is worth to our gender. Like if this wonderful kid happens to be male, then maybe we're not all so bad...
posted by Kevin Street at 9:19 PM on October 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Kevin Street at 9:19 PM on October 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
I can't say that any of our parental fears or worries were gender-specific while raising our 3 kids. It was always clear that they were 3 completely different people, regardless of their genders. The roughest part for me was the inevitable moment sometime during the grade 3-5 years when they realize, with the heartbreaking weight of a ton of smashing bricks, that some people are going to be mean and shitty to them for no apparent reason. And part of that happy-go-lucky, care-free childhood thing sort of dies. Happened to all 3 of my kids in school in different ways and it's so awful and painful to see and know that you can't protect them from it.
My kids are all teenagers now and all of them are excellent people; all of them kind and caring and fair and none of them put with any kind of exclusionary bigoted bullshit at all; so maybe you have to suffer for that, I don't know. I'm so proud of all of them.
And for everyone who's worried about their young kids, let me be the asshole to tell you that the worry just gets more intense and complex. I'm worried constantly. But I'm also totally happy at their successes and the paths they are choosing. So it sort of balances out.
posted by chococat at 9:26 PM on October 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
My kids are all teenagers now and all of them are excellent people; all of them kind and caring and fair and none of them put with any kind of exclusionary bigoted bullshit at all; so maybe you have to suffer for that, I don't know. I'm so proud of all of them.
And for everyone who's worried about their young kids, let me be the asshole to tell you that the worry just gets more intense and complex. I'm worried constantly. But I'm also totally happy at their successes and the paths they are choosing. So it sort of balances out.
posted by chococat at 9:26 PM on October 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
A blogger on Vice, Chelsea G. Summers, thrills at how “misandry” — hatred of men — has become “chic.” She gushes that, in addition to a political agenda, this blanket antipathy promises some “great pop culture.” This has manifested itself, among other ways, through blogs and online essays and tweets that pillory and mock the growing trend of men crying — which, I know from my own and other men’s experience, can be the single act that most liberates and heals a painful past that devalues masculine sensitivity. Paradoxically, for some men, the third-wave feminism they embrace strong-arms them into muting the very sensitivity and empathy that opened their eyes to women’s plight.Oh no, those poor men! They're so sensitive and empathetic that they just want to do something about women's plight, but that awful feminism has strong-armed them—literally strong-armed them—into hiding those feelings! Don't those feminists know that they need to let men feel sorry for women so they can help them?
Just what did those articles say, anyway? From the Vice article:
But in 2015, misandry changed and chic got real. Misandry isn't as simple as hating men. Just as misogyny is less a dislike of women and more a network of practice built on the oppression of women, misandry is a seething rage against patriarchal power, not just a dislike of men.And from the Jezebel article:
Pop culture is flooded with vulnerable men, particularly of the celebrity variety. They usually—and vocally—feel an affinity for things like Bernie Sanders, social justice, the environment, and their mom. You’ll find them on lists like “26 Times Celebrity Men Stood Up For Feminism.” This vulnerable masculinity resembles “traditional” masculinity most strongly in the way it’s a consciously rendered performance, one that fits with contemporary mores. It purports to balance strength, that age-old requirement, with gendered softness. These men cry without being weak; they are vulnerable without being penetrable; it’s an iteration of masculinity that draws on the benefits of feeling without being subject to the gendered critique of emotional expression.Huh. Interesting. It almost looks like this guy hadn't read the articles he was referring to.
I think that the author's misunderstanding of those articles is actually emblematic of the whole misunderstanding that underlies these men's "fear of having a son". They're hearing a lot of feminist messages about the harmfulness of toxic masculinity and the importance of allowing men to be vulnerable. Calling yourself a feminist is a pretty fashionable move for a lot of men these days, which encourages them to act out sensitivity and vulnerability on the surface. But they can't afford to really take those messages to heart, because if they admit that their identities as men were influenced by tropes of toxic masculinity, they might be forced to admit some uncomfortable truths about themselves, making their fashionable image as feminists vulnerable, which they can't accept because toxic masculinity forbids them from being vulnerable. They instead decide that the way they're going to be feminist is by raising a daughter and having her deal with all of the sexism that they have no personal experience with, so they can convince themselves that they're "woke" by proxy.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 9:44 PM on October 16, 2016 [31 favorites]
As a father of a son and two daughters, I've found both sides to be equally challenging; raising kids is just hard work. (But, more often than not, fantastic.) My messages for them however are far more differentiated by their personalities than by their sex. In general, I will say that I have spent more time talking with my son about recognizing his privilege, and at what price that comes. Often times I feel like the most important answer I can give to some of the tougher questions is, "I don't know. I'm still trying to figure that out." Other times it's turning stuff around and asking them to share their experiences and then trying to gently guide them through figuring out how those experiences played out, both for themselves and for other people.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 10:09 PM on October 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 10:09 PM on October 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
There's such a hatred of men in parts of society today. It isn't universal (thank goodness), but it's a growing part of the dynamic. And it often comes most strongly from men, who have been taught to loath themselves and the idea of masculinity.
I'm really confused by what you mean here. I can think of very few examples of men who loathe "the idea of masculinity" or have no idea where you are seeing all this hatred of men, particularly in a world that remains very firmly a patriarchy.
Oh no, those poor men! They're so sensitive and empathetic that they just want to do something about women's plight, but that awful feminism has strong-armed them—literally strong-armed them—into hiding those feelings! Don't those feminists know that they need to let men feel sorry for women so they can help them?
That bit on "male tears" in the article really stood out to me because the author seemed to have misunderstood that (cutesy, fringe, completely sarcastic) movement or style or aesthetic entirely. It isn't about mocking men for having feelings but rather, for expressing completely disproportionate anger or outrage at having to give up their existing privileges. It was a way of turning the "hysterical" or "overemotional" card played so often against women expressing legitimate grievances against men, who are so rarely told they are acting irrationally or emotionally. I've never heard anyone use "male tears" to mock a man who was actually crying for any reason. I've seen it used almost exclusively to mock people like Gamergaters or the people who made all that fuss over Ghostbusters.
posted by armadillo1224 at 10:14 PM on October 16, 2016 [32 favorites]
I'm really confused by what you mean here. I can think of very few examples of men who loathe "the idea of masculinity" or have no idea where you are seeing all this hatred of men, particularly in a world that remains very firmly a patriarchy.
Oh no, those poor men! They're so sensitive and empathetic that they just want to do something about women's plight, but that awful feminism has strong-armed them—literally strong-armed them—into hiding those feelings! Don't those feminists know that they need to let men feel sorry for women so they can help them?
That bit on "male tears" in the article really stood out to me because the author seemed to have misunderstood that (cutesy, fringe, completely sarcastic) movement or style or aesthetic entirely. It isn't about mocking men for having feelings but rather, for expressing completely disproportionate anger or outrage at having to give up their existing privileges. It was a way of turning the "hysterical" or "overemotional" card played so often against women expressing legitimate grievances against men, who are so rarely told they are acting irrationally or emotionally. I've never heard anyone use "male tears" to mock a man who was actually crying for any reason. I've seen it used almost exclusively to mock people like Gamergaters or the people who made all that fuss over Ghostbusters.
posted by armadillo1224 at 10:14 PM on October 16, 2016 [32 favorites]
I never thought to be afraid of what gender my children were going to be – I mean it’s not like there was anything we could do about it so a degree of fatalism is appropriate. But now that it’s turned out we got two boys, I’ve never been remotely worried about developing them into appropriately modern and balanced human beings when it comes to gender relationships. 99% of what they learn is from observation, and when they see a strong relationship between me and my wife, and learn to respect all adults based on their individual merits not on their gender (or race or whatever), from example, then I don’t know what else I ought be doing, apart from the occasional gentle corrective to misperceptions. And I don’t know what we would have done differently with girls. Nothing, from my current (not practically informed) perspective.This article seems kinda neurotic and pro-“as a guilty parent, I should be worried about X”. I would have found it harder as a parent of girls dealing with all the disgusting pink crap – but that wouldn’t have been a parenting issue, it would have been an issue not offending other people.
posted by wilful at 10:18 PM on October 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by wilful at 10:18 PM on October 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
We're having our first child soon, in a few weeks. A boy. I can't say I have preferences in that matter. But my sister has two girls, one's a couple months old and the older is seven and I do dare say that girls' clothes, toys, and general stuff is much more codified in pink than boys' is in blue. It's totally frustrating to see the fucking only option be pink. And it's strange to have heard from the grandparents and other relatives arguments like "but what if others think that she's a boy" - if she'd be dressed in green, blue, whatever. This kind of total separation of boys and girls right from birth is what is somewhat distressing to me. And I can't but feel that this is where some of the problems come from. My wife's brother has a boy, five years old. Action figures, Iron Man suits, Cap.America shields, etc. That's all cool but at one time when he was playing with a girl, the boy's grandfather said to the mother: "If I ever catch him trying on women's clothes, he's gonna get it ..." I mean, there's this strange prohibition at work here that tells kids it's absolutely wrong even to try and feel what the other does. This kind of attitude sounds a bit like a prohibition on empathy in fear of becoming the other ...
Anyhow, having seen others raise thei kids, I realize it's difficult either way, and I'm just hoping that we'll manage to raise our soon-to-be born boy to not be an asshole.
posted by sapagan at 11:19 PM on October 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
Anyhow, having seen others raise thei kids, I realize it's difficult either way, and I'm just hoping that we'll manage to raise our soon-to-be born boy to not be an asshole.
posted by sapagan at 11:19 PM on October 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
Strong female character, you've obviously never been a boy. You can say it doesn't sound right to you, but until you've been a boy you don't know. There is all kinds of shit that's truly horrible about being a boy, just as there's all kinds of shit that's horrible about being a girl.
I'm also a trans woman, and for sure, my childhood was also fucking difficult, and likely would've been easier in many ways if I had been a cis girl rather than trying to live as a boy, but that's because I'm trans. It doesn't follow from my experience that life is harder for boys than girls. For sure, I am in many ways more intimately familiar with the ways non-conforming little boys are treated (and it is not fucking well) but there are pressures every bit as insidious on little girls, they're just often less visible. No doubt, effectively growing up with the pressures of both as trans people who grow up presenting as a gender they don't identify with often in many ways do, that is of course it's own class of hell, complete with a different (and more contentious) relationship with gender policing.
posted by Dysk at 12:33 AM on October 17, 2016 [31 favorites]
I'm also a trans woman, and for sure, my childhood was also fucking difficult, and likely would've been easier in many ways if I had been a cis girl rather than trying to live as a boy, but that's because I'm trans. It doesn't follow from my experience that life is harder for boys than girls. For sure, I am in many ways more intimately familiar with the ways non-conforming little boys are treated (and it is not fucking well) but there are pressures every bit as insidious on little girls, they're just often less visible. No doubt, effectively growing up with the pressures of both as trans people who grow up presenting as a gender they don't identify with often in many ways do, that is of course it's own class of hell, complete with a different (and more contentious) relationship with gender policing.
posted by Dysk at 12:33 AM on October 17, 2016 [31 favorites]
Well, boys do worse in school. They die more often in accidents. They get murdered more often. They kill themselves more often. It's terrifying. It can be terrifying without this being a zero-sum contest between the two dominant genders. Even though I would never say they have it worse, if you want your child to survive to adulthood and stay in school, it's a bigger challenge with a boy.
posted by mobunited at 2:30 AM on October 17, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by mobunited at 2:30 AM on October 17, 2016 [12 favorites]
But I grew up a miserable boy, routinely getting the shit kicked out of me on the playground. I was expected to be dirty and noisy and aggro, and I was treated like a freak because I wasn't. There was this constant, crushing pressure to talk a certain way, to walk a certain way, to shut down my emotions and be mean and cold and follow this ghastly masculine script. Any deviation from the man script was treated with contempt. It was worst from the other kids, but we were also closely policed by grown men and women.
Jesus, this. I hated being a boy. You had to fit into such a tight box or else. I knew it was all wrong, but to try and do anything else resulted in terrorism. Luckily, I had art to retreat to...to banish myself into, where being "different" was somehow acceptable (as long as you weren't too different.)
I hated being a boy so much I was at a total loss as to how to raise my own boy beyond "be nice to others" and "don't be a dick" and "women are equals." I really didn't feel comfortable encouraging him to do any of the "traditional" Boy things...sports, etc. But, I didn't know dick about anything else other than art, which is where I went to be alone. I hated being a boy so much I almost came to resent my own boy for forcing me to go back there.
Raising my daughter was so much easier. It was the age of "you can be anything" and show-after-show about empowering girls to do whatever they wanted, especially the traditionally male things. There was far more varied and encouraging support for raising girls than raising boys.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:34 AM on October 17, 2016 [14 favorites]
Jesus, this. I hated being a boy. You had to fit into such a tight box or else. I knew it was all wrong, but to try and do anything else resulted in terrorism. Luckily, I had art to retreat to...to banish myself into, where being "different" was somehow acceptable (as long as you weren't too different.)
I hated being a boy so much I was at a total loss as to how to raise my own boy beyond "be nice to others" and "don't be a dick" and "women are equals." I really didn't feel comfortable encouraging him to do any of the "traditional" Boy things...sports, etc. But, I didn't know dick about anything else other than art, which is where I went to be alone. I hated being a boy so much I almost came to resent my own boy for forcing me to go back there.
Raising my daughter was so much easier. It was the age of "you can be anything" and show-after-show about empowering girls to do whatever they wanted, especially the traditionally male things. There was far more varied and encouraging support for raising girls than raising boys.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:34 AM on October 17, 2016 [14 favorites]
I think this other NYT article is related. How to be a man in the age of Trump by Peggy Orenstein
posted by chavenet at 4:10 AM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 4:10 AM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm a feminist mom with a son, now a teenager.
I remember (with shame) shopping for first school supplies and finding myself trying to dissuade him from a pink pencil case in an absolute panic he would be bullied and marked through all of his schooling. I seriously had to talk myself down and I fretted all day at work worried about his first day.
Meanwhile my friends bought their (preschool aged) son his beloved barbie radio (he was mad for all things radio) and we laughed they would never have purchased barbie product for a daughter.
I get the objections, but there really is something visceral about the fears we discover while parenting. Kids somehow make you face the work you haven't done yet, and face how the social justice you've fought for has not been won, and how afraid you are to let your kids loose in the midst of it.
posted by chapps at 4:21 AM on October 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
I remember (with shame) shopping for first school supplies and finding myself trying to dissuade him from a pink pencil case in an absolute panic he would be bullied and marked through all of his schooling. I seriously had to talk myself down and I fretted all day at work worried about his first day.
Meanwhile my friends bought their (preschool aged) son his beloved barbie radio (he was mad for all things radio) and we laughed they would never have purchased barbie product for a daughter.
I get the objections, but there really is something visceral about the fears we discover while parenting. Kids somehow make you face the work you haven't done yet, and face how the social justice you've fought for has not been won, and how afraid you are to let your kids loose in the midst of it.
posted by chapps at 4:21 AM on October 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
I think there's a chance that men worry about having sons more because they feel like they are more responsible for the emotional well being of their sons. They're equally responsible in reality, regardless the gender, but there is a subconscious undertone that layers an extra pressure on fathers of sons. It's not rational, but it's there.
My son has just started school and he's started to pick up what i consider are bad masculine affectations. I really hope that we can be a stronger influencer than his peers, but i'm not convinced. That scares me.
posted by trif at 4:48 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
My son has just started school and he's started to pick up what i consider are bad masculine affectations. I really hope that we can be a stronger influencer than his peers, but i'm not convinced. That scares me.
posted by trif at 4:48 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm Canadian so I just assume they are worried about how much hockey equipment costs.
posted by srboisvert at 5:53 AM on October 17, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 5:53 AM on October 17, 2016 [10 favorites]
transwomen
Trans women. With a space. We're women who are trans, not an additional distinct category, much as some of us are tall women (but not tallwomen) or short women (but not shortwomen) and so on.
posted by Dysk at 6:25 AM on October 17, 2016 [12 favorites]
Trans women. With a space. We're women who are trans, not an additional distinct category, much as some of us are tall women (but not tallwomen) or short women (but not shortwomen) and so on.
posted by Dysk at 6:25 AM on October 17, 2016 [12 favorites]
But I grew up a miserable boy, routinely getting the shit kicked out of me on the playground. I was expected to be dirty and noisy and aggro, and I was treated like a freak because I wasn't. There was this constant, crushing pressure to talk a certain way, to walk a certain way, to shut down my emotions and be mean and cold and follow this ghastly masculine script. Any deviation from the man script was treated with contempt. It was worst from the other kids, but we were also closely policed by grown men and women.
Similar experience here - and it extended straight into university. only now in my 40s am i starting to hold my head up high, happy about who I am. And honestly, meeting people like you, fellow Mefites, has helped greatly!
The source of my anxiety nowadays is that I am quasi-consciously leading my son down the same path, since many of his classmates are of the aggressive sort.
I ask myself if by teaching him to be sensitive, kind, considerate, and respectful of others' boundaries and differences, will he will end up being isolated from the majority of his peers throughout his youth and adolescence (like me)?
Am I setting him up for an eternity of loneliness and exclusion because I want him to do "what's right?".
It's not like I'm going to let him run wild, but I will feel 100% responsible if I ever see him suffer the way I did.
posted by bitteroldman at 6:52 AM on October 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Similar experience here - and it extended straight into university. only now in my 40s am i starting to hold my head up high, happy about who I am. And honestly, meeting people like you, fellow Mefites, has helped greatly!
The source of my anxiety nowadays is that I am quasi-consciously leading my son down the same path, since many of his classmates are of the aggressive sort.
I ask myself if by teaching him to be sensitive, kind, considerate, and respectful of others' boundaries and differences, will he will end up being isolated from the majority of his peers throughout his youth and adolescence (like me)?
Am I setting him up for an eternity of loneliness and exclusion because I want him to do "what's right?".
It's not like I'm going to let him run wild, but I will feel 100% responsible if I ever see him suffer the way I did.
posted by bitteroldman at 6:52 AM on October 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
I know my husband grapples with this. He has a hard time getting past his own male-socialization trauma to a place where he knows what to tell our son. He worries a lot about failing him.
Exactly because I don't have any of that, I have an easier time. Also because my kid seems fairly gender-conforming, although he is definitely not macho; he's a sensitive quirky kid.
One of the reasons I deliberately sought out and joined a UU church was because they make more room for quirkiness of all kinds, gender-related or not. I liked how kind and compassionate and free-spirited the teens were at the place we joined. I want that for him. We can make our home a safe space but I wanted him to have more than that.
His school situation is good, but some weirdness happens now and then, despite our best efforts. And every time, it's his dad who has a harder time with it than I do.
Very possibly this would all be reversed if we had a girl. I've never had to address my baggage around that but I bet I would have some.
I will tell you, not having cable has been super helpful, because if you think about it, toy commercials and a lot of kid shows are where gender roles get hammered in. My kid missed a lot of that. And when he did hear about it second-hand, from other kids, he was utterly puzzled by it, because it seemed so alien to his life.
posted by emjaybee at 6:53 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Exactly because I don't have any of that, I have an easier time. Also because my kid seems fairly gender-conforming, although he is definitely not macho; he's a sensitive quirky kid.
One of the reasons I deliberately sought out and joined a UU church was because they make more room for quirkiness of all kinds, gender-related or not. I liked how kind and compassionate and free-spirited the teens were at the place we joined. I want that for him. We can make our home a safe space but I wanted him to have more than that.
His school situation is good, but some weirdness happens now and then, despite our best efforts. And every time, it's his dad who has a harder time with it than I do.
Very possibly this would all be reversed if we had a girl. I've never had to address my baggage around that but I bet I would have some.
I will tell you, not having cable has been super helpful, because if you think about it, toy commercials and a lot of kid shows are where gender roles get hammered in. My kid missed a lot of that. And when he did hear about it second-hand, from other kids, he was utterly puzzled by it, because it seemed so alien to his life.
posted by emjaybee at 6:53 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
From the Orenstein piece linked above by chavenet: "Boys need continuing, serious guidance about sexual ethics, reciprocity, respect. Rather than silence or swagger, they need models of masculinity that are not grounded in domination or aggression."
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:02 AM on October 17, 2016
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:02 AM on October 17, 2016
I don't have a lot of sympathy for him. I feel like this article is him crying and throwing his toys on the floor because it's too hard.
How very ironic.
posted by Behemoth at 7:10 AM on October 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
How very ironic.
posted by Behemoth at 7:10 AM on October 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've got three girls, and I feel like doing this on a weekly basis.
I've only got one and if I could have quit early Saturday morning when she decided to pee/poop all over EVERYTHING I might have. I would have seriously considered it. Parenting is hard and I'm not going to begrudge anyone thinking/complaining about the ways it's hard, if they're trying.
When we first found out we were having our little monster, I just sort of naturally imagined a boy, because I was picturing my childhood (only better), obviously. When I found out it was going to be a girl, the shift happened immediately and without any regret. I worry about all the patriarchy bullshit she'll have to put up with, and teaching her to handle that, but I feel like we're aware enough of those issues to at least give it our best efforts. For a boy, I'd also be thinking about both how to teach him about the ways the patriarchy hurts him and the ways it can cause him to hurt others, which feels more fraught. I expect to need to have fewer conversations about not raping people with my daughter and with a son, I'd need to do that.
I wonder how much of the broader trend (if there is indeed one, the article cites some data) is about worrying about things that have higher rates in boys, like ADHD and autism. Autism is the big scary monster of 2016 parenting, and I can see parents who are worried about that being slightly relieved to have a girl. (This is obviously not meant to condone either an expectation that girls won't be autistic or that autism is terrible, but rather thinking about how other people might be thinking.)
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:18 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've only got one and if I could have quit early Saturday morning when she decided to pee/poop all over EVERYTHING I might have. I would have seriously considered it. Parenting is hard and I'm not going to begrudge anyone thinking/complaining about the ways it's hard, if they're trying.
When we first found out we were having our little monster, I just sort of naturally imagined a boy, because I was picturing my childhood (only better), obviously. When I found out it was going to be a girl, the shift happened immediately and without any regret. I worry about all the patriarchy bullshit she'll have to put up with, and teaching her to handle that, but I feel like we're aware enough of those issues to at least give it our best efforts. For a boy, I'd also be thinking about both how to teach him about the ways the patriarchy hurts him and the ways it can cause him to hurt others, which feels more fraught. I expect to need to have fewer conversations about not raping people with my daughter and with a son, I'd need to do that.
I wonder how much of the broader trend (if there is indeed one, the article cites some data) is about worrying about things that have higher rates in boys, like ADHD and autism. Autism is the big scary monster of 2016 parenting, and I can see parents who are worried about that being slightly relieved to have a girl. (This is obviously not meant to condone either an expectation that girls won't be autistic or that autism is terrible, but rather thinking about how other people might be thinking.)
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:18 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
It might be because I'm the mom or it might be because my husband was raised toxic masculine in at least 3 different ways and has turned out amazingly but...this article made me feel so sad for the author because I love, love, love raising my two boys. I don't feel like there's any conflict between our goals of raising ethical and responsible human beings who feel loved and supported and them being boys.
I will say our "one neat trick" has been to steer clear of hockey. And our one long-term game is simply to talk to them, in age-appropriate ways, about all of this.
From my eldest son's Hulk green nail polish to my younger son's distressing latest habit of smacking people on the butt, we just take each issue as it comes as best we can and so far we've found our way as a family. I could name about a hundred incidents that were both distressing but also a real opportunity for us to all talk about it.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:40 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I will say our "one neat trick" has been to steer clear of hockey. And our one long-term game is simply to talk to them, in age-appropriate ways, about all of this.
From my eldest son's Hulk green nail polish to my younger son's distressing latest habit of smacking people on the butt, we just take each issue as it comes as best we can and so far we've found our way as a family. I could name about a hundred incidents that were both distressing but also a real opportunity for us to all talk about it.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:40 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
It can be terrifying without this being a zero-sum contest between the two dominant genders.
Yes. Please. Yes. There's more than enough suffering in this world for everyone to get as much as they can take. This issue doesn't need to be the goddamn trauma Olympics. My pain does not diminish the validity of your pain, and yours does not diminish the validity of mine.
One way or another, we all have to take the poison pill. We all get taught to disown different parts of our essential humanity. Girls cannot be angry, ambitious, assertive, or anything but pleasant and passive and demure. Boys cannot be sensitive, introspective, or emotional. And anyone who exists outside that gender binary is simply presumed not to exist at all.
As a man, I can't tell you how many times I have felt completely alienated from what is going on in my own head and heart -- to the extent that I don't even know what is bothering me. So many times, I have seen the same unexpressed pain in other men, who have never learned to name what they feel or understand what they feel or talk about what they feel or even feel what they feel. To be cut off in that way, not only from the rest of humanity but from your own true self, is deeply and desperately lonely.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 8:53 AM on October 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
Yes. Please. Yes. There's more than enough suffering in this world for everyone to get as much as they can take. This issue doesn't need to be the goddamn trauma Olympics. My pain does not diminish the validity of your pain, and yours does not diminish the validity of mine.
One way or another, we all have to take the poison pill. We all get taught to disown different parts of our essential humanity. Girls cannot be angry, ambitious, assertive, or anything but pleasant and passive and demure. Boys cannot be sensitive, introspective, or emotional. And anyone who exists outside that gender binary is simply presumed not to exist at all.
As a man, I can't tell you how many times I have felt completely alienated from what is going on in my own head and heart -- to the extent that I don't even know what is bothering me. So many times, I have seen the same unexpressed pain in other men, who have never learned to name what they feel or understand what they feel or talk about what they feel or even feel what they feel. To be cut off in that way, not only from the rest of humanity but from your own true self, is deeply and desperately lonely.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 8:53 AM on October 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
Though I disagree with a lot of the framing, I can empathize with the author. When I have considered having children, I have often thought that I would rather raise a girl than a boy. I have also considered that this might be a "grass is greener" situation, because I know first hand the difficulties of growing up as a boy. I am cisgendered, though if such things are a spectrum, I am perhaps a bit closer to the middle than to either extreme. I used to cry when I was very little because I wanted to be pretty and I knew boys were not allowed to be pretty. I used to think I would have been happy as a tomboy, except that I know that the pressures from the other direction would have been just as bad (or worse) in that case. But my experience of growing up as a boy was constant rejection and violence by male culture, to the point where even today I am not comfortable around straight men. Almost all my male friends are queer or are partners of my female friends.
I do not know how to help a boy navigate male culture any better than I did, which was terribly.
posted by Nothing at 9:09 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I do not know how to help a boy navigate male culture any better than I did, which was terribly.
posted by Nothing at 9:09 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
But I grew up... aroutinely getting the shit kicked out of me on the playground.
Me too, and I was a girl. And I was not allowed to fight back, because "boys will be boys, but little ladies don't do that sort of thing."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:20 AM on October 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
Me too, and I was a girl. And I was not allowed to fight back, because "boys will be boys, but little ladies don't do that sort of thing."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:20 AM on October 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
As a man, I can't tell you how many times I have felt completely alienated from what is going on in my own head and heart -- to the extent that I don't even know what is bothering me. So many times, I have seen the same unexpressed pain in other men, who have never learned to name what they feel or understand what they feel or talk about what they feel or even feel what they feel. To be cut off in that way, not only from the rest of humanity but from your own true self, is deeply and desperately lonely.
And I can say exactly the same thing as a woman, as can my mother and all of her sisters, for example.
posted by Dysk at 9:32 AM on October 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
And I can say exactly the same thing as a woman, as can my mother and all of her sisters, for example.
posted by Dysk at 9:32 AM on October 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
I do not know how to help a boy navigate male culture any better than I did, which was terribly.
This is a pretty good summary of the problem I'm facing. I have a 3-year-old girl, and we just discovered that #2, who will be here in April, is a boy. I absolutely adore my 3-year-old, who is a thoughtful and considerate (to the extent a toddler can be, anyway) and emotionally-together person and is routinely praised for it. Whatever combination of tactics my wife and I employed, I feel pretty good that she's on track to be an excellent human being. Based on my observations of other kids at the playground, if she were a boy, she'd already be getting the side-eye for not conforming to masculine stereotypes. The boy we raise is going to have his wardrobe restricted in ways girls don't, and will be questioned for being too emotionally self-aware. He'll be expected to navigate conflicts with more direct means. His friendships will be limited in how emotionally vulnerable they can be. He won't be able to like trucks AND princesses, even at age 3. (He'll be able to do anything he wants at home, obviously, but it is profoundly unsettling to watch toxic masculinity worm its way into the social interactions of toddlers)
I 100% recognize that he'll have a lot of things easier than my daughter will. When we first discovered we were having a girl 4 years ago, my first instinct was one of terror, because you can teach a boy not to perform toxic masculinity; you can only teach a girl how to minimize the damage she receives from it. That doesn't mean I'm not terrified of watching him struggle and fail to navigate male culture in exactly the same way his dad did.
posted by Mayor West at 9:33 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is a pretty good summary of the problem I'm facing. I have a 3-year-old girl, and we just discovered that #2, who will be here in April, is a boy. I absolutely adore my 3-year-old, who is a thoughtful and considerate (to the extent a toddler can be, anyway) and emotionally-together person and is routinely praised for it. Whatever combination of tactics my wife and I employed, I feel pretty good that she's on track to be an excellent human being. Based on my observations of other kids at the playground, if she were a boy, she'd already be getting the side-eye for not conforming to masculine stereotypes. The boy we raise is going to have his wardrobe restricted in ways girls don't, and will be questioned for being too emotionally self-aware. He'll be expected to navigate conflicts with more direct means. His friendships will be limited in how emotionally vulnerable they can be. He won't be able to like trucks AND princesses, even at age 3. (He'll be able to do anything he wants at home, obviously, but it is profoundly unsettling to watch toxic masculinity worm its way into the social interactions of toddlers)
I 100% recognize that he'll have a lot of things easier than my daughter will. When we first discovered we were having a girl 4 years ago, my first instinct was one of terror, because you can teach a boy not to perform toxic masculinity; you can only teach a girl how to minimize the damage she receives from it. That doesn't mean I'm not terrified of watching him struggle and fail to navigate male culture in exactly the same way his dad did.
posted by Mayor West at 9:33 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
He won't be able to like trucks AND princesses, even at age 3.
My son wandered around carrying a teeny tiny duffel bag accessory and called it "My Purse" at around 16 months.
He wore one of his twin sister's princess outfits for a couple of days while declaring himself a prince at age 3. Much to his sister's consternation, because they were her outfits.
He wore clothing with pink camouflage and hearts to school a handful of times in pre-K. His sister's. Because he wanted to and we let him.
And when one of his friends in class said something like, "That's for girls. Only girls wear that." He told them they were wrong because he was wearing it and he's a boy. Which pretty much flummoxed his friend and completely shut down that argument.
He's 8 now. And while he does a ton of "boy" things, he doesn't have any hangups about watching girl-centric tv shows with his sister or playing dolls or shopkins with her. (Although when he plays, lots of shopkins meet with unfortunate explosive accidents.)
We gave our kid free rein to like trucks and princess at age 3 and he still kept all his friends and didn't have trouble on the playground. No parent dared say shit to me about it. I would have given them an earful.
posted by zarq at 10:04 AM on October 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
My son wandered around carrying a teeny tiny duffel bag accessory and called it "My Purse" at around 16 months.
He wore one of his twin sister's princess outfits for a couple of days while declaring himself a prince at age 3. Much to his sister's consternation, because they were her outfits.
He wore clothing with pink camouflage and hearts to school a handful of times in pre-K. His sister's. Because he wanted to and we let him.
And when one of his friends in class said something like, "That's for girls. Only girls wear that." He told them they were wrong because he was wearing it and he's a boy. Which pretty much flummoxed his friend and completely shut down that argument.
He's 8 now. And while he does a ton of "boy" things, he doesn't have any hangups about watching girl-centric tv shows with his sister or playing dolls or shopkins with her. (Although when he plays, lots of shopkins meet with unfortunate explosive accidents.)
We gave our kid free rein to like trucks and princess at age 3 and he still kept all his friends and didn't have trouble on the playground. No parent dared say shit to me about it. I would have given them an earful.
posted by zarq at 10:04 AM on October 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
The article sounds like the author has a lot of issues he hasn't dealt with. Mostly likely if he did that, then his worries would dissipate.
My observation is that the difficulty of raising a child within a particular society depends on the child's personality and their immediate family. A 'tom-girl' might have a terrible time with a 'girly' mom and more manly dad. Or it might be just fine if there's if she has a brother she bonds with, whatever his personality. Or maybe mom will readjust her world views to spend more time with her daughter.
The biggest factor in raising a well adjusted child is recognizing their personality and then helping them grow into who they are.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:27 PM on October 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
My observation is that the difficulty of raising a child within a particular society depends on the child's personality and their immediate family. A 'tom-girl' might have a terrible time with a 'girly' mom and more manly dad. Or it might be just fine if there's if she has a brother she bonds with, whatever his personality. Or maybe mom will readjust her world views to spend more time with her daughter.
The biggest factor in raising a well adjusted child is recognizing their personality and then helping them grow into who they are.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:27 PM on October 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
The article sounds like the author has a lot of issues he hasn't dealt with. Mostly likely if he did that, then his worries would dissipate.
This was the impression I had also. I think he has unresolved conflicts with masculinity and his identity as a man.
The first few lines set the tone - is this really a common thing for new fathers? Or is this man expressing an unusual level of neurosis?
Also, why is "vulnerability", and the expression thereof, considered to be this unalloyed good? There are some places that are safe to express vulnerability and there are some places that are not. Part of training a child in emotional intelligence is teaching him to distinguish a safe space from an unsafe space.
posted by theorique at 12:38 PM on October 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
This was the impression I had also. I think he has unresolved conflicts with masculinity and his identity as a man.
The first few lines set the tone - is this really a common thing for new fathers? Or is this man expressing an unusual level of neurosis?
When my son, Macallah, was born five years ago, my college students asked how it felt to be a new father.I can identify with the sensation of "terrifying" because of the brand-new responsibility for a helpless infant, but thinking forward many years to when the child will handle the reality of bullying (from whichever side) seems to be both pessimistic and psychologically unhealthy. Your new baby needs your attention and here you are pointlessly worrying about hypothetical future bullying 5 or 10 or 15 years in the future!
“Terrifying,” I blurted. “All I can think about is bullying.”
Silence and perplexed looks filled the room. “Your child was just born,” a female student said.
“I know,” I responded. “But this boy’s going to be raised to feel and express his vulnerability. That’s a curse in this culture.”
Also, why is "vulnerability", and the expression thereof, considered to be this unalloyed good? There are some places that are safe to express vulnerability and there are some places that are not. Part of training a child in emotional intelligence is teaching him to distinguish a safe space from an unsafe space.
posted by theorique at 12:38 PM on October 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
I have two daughters and a son, and they don't always divide up that way, in "difficulty" or anything else. Sometimes my son and one of my daughters are more alike than the other daughter, and something not.
Raising children well is hard, not least because of biases in myself I couldn't see until I tried to figure out what and how to transmit values to my kids. My son currently is more of an ardent feminist than one of my daughters, but these things shift over time, and they're all still teenagers, so we'll see.
posted by pwinn at 1:59 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Raising children well is hard, not least because of biases in myself I couldn't see until I tried to figure out what and how to transmit values to my kids. My son currently is more of an ardent feminist than one of my daughters, but these things shift over time, and they're all still teenagers, so we'll see.
posted by pwinn at 1:59 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well. As a mother of two boys, this article nicely pinpointed the kinds of things that keep me up at night. I don't have girls so I don't have a comparison, but there's no need to get into some kind of Oppression Olympics to recognise that there are unique challenges to raising a son.
I worry a lot about my oldest, who just turned four. He is adorable and smart and funny and not very socially adept. He also wears dresses and skirts every day except daycare, because he has already learned that the kids will give him shit for it if he does. He loves dancing and music and numbers and board games. He wanders around daydreaming and stuck in his own head most of the time. His best friend is his stuffed bunny. He is sensitive and cries easily and hates rough-and-tumble play.
I worry.
I worry that the combination of weirdness, intelligence, sensitivity, social cluelessness, and girlyness is going to make him a magnet for bullies. I worry that if it doesn't, it'll be because he avoided it by ruthlessly shaving off large parts of himself in to "fit in", until he no longer knows or recognises who he is. I worry that, no matter how accepting we his parents are, he will grow to hate himself for being so unlike this vision of masculinity that permeates so much of our culture.
And I worry for my other son, who at 15 months old is too young to have much of an obvious gender identity. But suppose (as is likely) he is more "normal." Right now he is funny and loving and very socially astute. I worry that he'll adopt that vision of masculinity uncritically, losing sight of his own emotions in the process. I worry that he will internalise the codes of masculinity to the point that he doesn't know where they end and he begins. I worry that he will grow up in an emotional straitjacket that he made for himself by wanting to belong.
Maybe this kind of worry is unnecessary in this day and age. I hope so. But given the world we live in, I don't think it's a stretch to be worried in this way.
posted by forza at 4:09 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I worry a lot about my oldest, who just turned four. He is adorable and smart and funny and not very socially adept. He also wears dresses and skirts every day except daycare, because he has already learned that the kids will give him shit for it if he does. He loves dancing and music and numbers and board games. He wanders around daydreaming and stuck in his own head most of the time. His best friend is his stuffed bunny. He is sensitive and cries easily and hates rough-and-tumble play.
I worry.
I worry that the combination of weirdness, intelligence, sensitivity, social cluelessness, and girlyness is going to make him a magnet for bullies. I worry that if it doesn't, it'll be because he avoided it by ruthlessly shaving off large parts of himself in to "fit in", until he no longer knows or recognises who he is. I worry that, no matter how accepting we his parents are, he will grow to hate himself for being so unlike this vision of masculinity that permeates so much of our culture.
And I worry for my other son, who at 15 months old is too young to have much of an obvious gender identity. But suppose (as is likely) he is more "normal." Right now he is funny and loving and very socially astute. I worry that he'll adopt that vision of masculinity uncritically, losing sight of his own emotions in the process. I worry that he will internalise the codes of masculinity to the point that he doesn't know where they end and he begins. I worry that he will grow up in an emotional straitjacket that he made for himself by wanting to belong.
Maybe this kind of worry is unnecessary in this day and age. I hope so. But given the world we live in, I don't think it's a stretch to be worried in this way.
posted by forza at 4:09 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
there's no need to get into some kind of Oppression Olympics
I think what I found grating about the article is that that's what he does. He hoped for a daughter because either he thought she'd have it easier or he wouldn't understand her challenges as well and accordingly wouldn't care as much.
The former is wrong, the latter is monstrous.
posted by jpe at 4:32 AM on October 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think what I found grating about the article is that that's what he does. He hoped for a daughter because either he thought she'd have it easier or he wouldn't understand her challenges as well and accordingly wouldn't care as much.
The former is wrong, the latter is monstrous.
posted by jpe at 4:32 AM on October 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
No one blames parents for children who are victimized.
Everyone blames parents for children who victimize others.
posted by Brachinus at 5:22 AM on October 18, 2016
Everyone blames parents for children who victimize others.
posted by Brachinus at 5:22 AM on October 18, 2016
No one blames parents for children who are victimized.
Not really true
I know what you're saying and there's something there, but we put a lot of blame (principally on mothers) for not protecting kids who are victimized.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:36 AM on October 18, 2016
Not really true
I know what you're saying and there's something there, but we put a lot of blame (principally on mothers) for not protecting kids who are victimized.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:36 AM on October 18, 2016
Trigger warning on that article linked by Bulgaroktonos. Holy crap.
posted by amanda at 6:44 AM on October 18, 2016
posted by amanda at 6:44 AM on October 18, 2016
Oh yeah, sorry, definitely! Apologies.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:47 AM on October 18, 2016
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:47 AM on October 18, 2016
we put a lot of blame (principally on mothers) for not protecting kids who are victimized.
Not only for not protecting kids, but also for not stopping a non-conforming kids from being non-conforming.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:44 AM on October 18, 2016
Not only for not protecting kids, but also for not stopping a non-conforming kids from being non-conforming.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:44 AM on October 18, 2016
“I know,” I responded. “But this boy’s going to be raised to feel and express his vulnerability. That’s a curse in this culture.”
Yeah, I don't buy it. His kid is going to be raised to recognize his own vulnerability if there's any hope. It means understanding that life isn't zero sum and that knowing where your vulnerabilities lie is a strength, not a weakness. That recognizing you can feel things that aren't stereotypical male emotions, instead of subsuming them all in anger and indignation when things don't go your way.
posted by mikeh at 1:52 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I don't buy it. His kid is going to be raised to recognize his own vulnerability if there's any hope. It means understanding that life isn't zero sum and that knowing where your vulnerabilities lie is a strength, not a weakness. That recognizing you can feel things that aren't stereotypical male emotions, instead of subsuming them all in anger and indignation when things don't go your way.
posted by mikeh at 1:52 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
He won't be able to like trucks AND princesses, even at age 3.
Ugh, my son just turned 3. We were at Costco the other day and needed to buy him a box of pullups. While my husband and I were debating what size of the Disney "Cars" themed boys pullups to buy, our son pointed to the pink box and said "I want THOSE! I want the princess pullups!" My husband immediately said, "No, those are for girls." I was annoyed at the situation and didn't want him to think he shouldn't like those stupid princess pullups. I elaborated a little and explained, "Well, these Cars pullups are designed a little differently so they absorb more pee in the front, which you need since you are a boy. If you wore those princess pullups you would leak everywhere. It's pretty dumb that they don't make the princess pullups designed for boys, huh?" He agreed. It makes me sad though that even if the pullups were unisex in design, my husband would have majorly sideeyed me about buying the princess ones.
posted by gatorae at 7:54 PM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ugh, my son just turned 3. We were at Costco the other day and needed to buy him a box of pullups. While my husband and I were debating what size of the Disney "Cars" themed boys pullups to buy, our son pointed to the pink box and said "I want THOSE! I want the princess pullups!" My husband immediately said, "No, those are for girls." I was annoyed at the situation and didn't want him to think he shouldn't like those stupid princess pullups. I elaborated a little and explained, "Well, these Cars pullups are designed a little differently so they absorb more pee in the front, which you need since you are a boy. If you wore those princess pullups you would leak everywhere. It's pretty dumb that they don't make the princess pullups designed for boys, huh?" He agreed. It makes me sad though that even if the pullups were unisex in design, my husband would have majorly sideeyed me about buying the princess ones.
posted by gatorae at 7:54 PM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, get the princess pull-ups! I ended up avoiding the Cars/Princesses and made an effort to get Pirates and Doc McStuffins which seems a little more equitable. Then I'd just open up both packages and mixed them together so she'd get whatever. Sometimes she'd pick from the pile and it seemed fairly random which one she preferred.
I was watching kids face painting tutorials yesterday and one of them had this woman who was demonstrating how to paint a cat face on a little girl. She was listing all the common things kids ask for: butterfly, princess, kitty cat, and the little girl says, "Spiderman..." and the woman goes, "Oh but, you're not a boy!" hahahaha. The little girl looks a little chagrined and then says quietly, "...or Spidergirl..." and the woman, not to miss this one, says, "Oh sure! You could use pink to make a Spidergirl!" ArghblarghlflarghlCRAP! It's just...part of our culture. There was another little throw-away line at the end of another one I watched with a different artist who was doing a "bat face" where she said you could make one for girls as well if you use pink and purple. What is wrong with people's brains?!
posted by amanda at 10:25 AM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was watching kids face painting tutorials yesterday and one of them had this woman who was demonstrating how to paint a cat face on a little girl. She was listing all the common things kids ask for: butterfly, princess, kitty cat, and the little girl says, "Spiderman..." and the woman goes, "Oh but, you're not a boy!" hahahaha. The little girl looks a little chagrined and then says quietly, "...or Spidergirl..." and the woman, not to miss this one, says, "Oh sure! You could use pink to make a Spidergirl!" ArghblarghlflarghlCRAP! It's just...part of our culture. There was another little throw-away line at the end of another one I watched with a different artist who was doing a "bat face" where she said you could make one for girls as well if you use pink and purple. What is wrong with people's brains?!
posted by amanda at 10:25 AM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Raising my daughter was so much easier. It was the age of "you can be anything" and show-after-show about empowering girls to do whatever they wanted, especially the traditionally male things. There was far more varied and encouraging support for raising girls than raising boys.
I have two daughters and a son, and while I wouldn't begin to make universal declarations about one or the other being easier, I do feel that in many ways the task with daughters is clearer and, yes, easier, because as we move into a more egalitarian society, we are fighting for girls to be able to do and be the things that are honored in our society, and pretty much everyone is behind that. My fairly reactionary, Trump-voting parents still want their granddaughters to be able to kick ass in sports, become neurosurgeons and run for Lord Emperor of the Cosmos. But with boys, the new egalitarian utopia (which I want as much as anyone else) is only going to come by fighting for boys to be able to do and be the things that are less honored, less rewarded, and sometimes openly mocked. If my daughter wins the science fair and gets a soccer scholarship to college, everyone cheers. If my son excels at ballet and becomes a preschool teacher, the applause is much quieter and sometimes turns to mocking. It seems easier to me to support my daughters as the fight to entry into the lives our culture honors than to support my son as he fights for acceptance in the lives that we look down on--and makes people start to honor them.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:54 AM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
I have two daughters and a son, and while I wouldn't begin to make universal declarations about one or the other being easier, I do feel that in many ways the task with daughters is clearer and, yes, easier, because as we move into a more egalitarian society, we are fighting for girls to be able to do and be the things that are honored in our society, and pretty much everyone is behind that. My fairly reactionary, Trump-voting parents still want their granddaughters to be able to kick ass in sports, become neurosurgeons and run for Lord Emperor of the Cosmos. But with boys, the new egalitarian utopia (which I want as much as anyone else) is only going to come by fighting for boys to be able to do and be the things that are less honored, less rewarded, and sometimes openly mocked. If my daughter wins the science fair and gets a soccer scholarship to college, everyone cheers. If my son excels at ballet and becomes a preschool teacher, the applause is much quieter and sometimes turns to mocking. It seems easier to me to support my daughters as the fight to entry into the lives our culture honors than to support my son as he fights for acceptance in the lives that we look down on--and makes people start to honor them.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:54 AM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
I thought of this thread when the Boyville Utopia thread kicked up and thought again how glad I was to have daughters and why I'd wanted daughters. I saw the world the same way Pater above does and so wanted daughters because of it. Its a tougher life in many ways but more ways of being and not fucked with for it.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 12:11 PM on October 19, 2016
posted by Ogre Lawless at 12:11 PM on October 19, 2016
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Anyway, our son is about to turn 4. He's amazing and very sweet. And I feel fortunate that my natural mode of parenting seems to be very touchy-feely, very hands-on, lots of kneeling down to his eye level to hear what he's saying and talk to him, lots of him sitting in my lap while we're reading a book. I hug and kiss my kid all the freaking time and I cannot conceive of trying to curtail that because of wanting him to be a man or whatever. That seems crazy to me.
At the same time, I still worry about masculinity constantly. It's a hard needle to thread, being openly affectionate and physical, and also teaching him about boundaries--ask permission to give hugs, that kind of thing. Whatever you tell kids to do, I feel like their behavior ultimately depends heavily on the example they see you setting. So above all else, I'm trying to be good.
posted by Maaik at 6:43 PM on October 16, 2016 [30 favorites]