Too poor for a bedroom community? Yikes!
October 28, 2016 1:40 PM Subscribe
Average earners getting squeezed out of Sacramento region’s tight housing market Average wage earners in Sacramento, who can afford a roughly $250,000 house, are being excluded from the real estate market because of low resale inventory and a lack of new construction. Sacramento may be following the lead of the Bay Area, where only higher-earning families can own a home.
And, just when that sounds bad, a more recent article, Study: Rents Rising, Incomes Declining offers more possible evidence of a worsening situation for real-estate consumers in the Sacramento area.
Isn't this pretty much every city in the U.S. and Canada these days? Just fill in the blanks for your own city's real estate article!
Average wage earners in ___________, who can afford a roughly $___,___ house, are being excluded from the real estate market because of low resale inventory and a lack of new construction. _________ may be following the lead of _____________, where only higher-earning families can own a home. And, just when that sounds bad, a more recent article, Study: Rents Rising, Incomes Declining offers more possible evidence of a worsening situation for real-estate consumers in the ____________ area.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:51 PM on October 28, 2016 [52 favorites]
Average wage earners in ___________, who can afford a roughly $___,___ house, are being excluded from the real estate market because of low resale inventory and a lack of new construction. _________ may be following the lead of _____________, where only higher-earning families can own a home. And, just when that sounds bad, a more recent article, Study: Rents Rising, Incomes Declining offers more possible evidence of a worsening situation for real-estate consumers in the ____________ area.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:51 PM on October 28, 2016 [52 favorites]
Anecdotally, in the last 2-3 years I've noticed many more visibly homeless people in the outer/central part of Sacramento where my parents live, and many, many more in the downtown and Mansion Flats/Old Sac/train yard area than I ever had before.
posted by latkes at 1:52 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by latkes at 1:52 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Not only that, The Card Cheat, but it's a story that's been appearing every year for the past 30 years.
posted by Melismata at 1:52 PM on October 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 1:52 PM on October 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Live here. Can confirm. Housing costs are skyrocketing in a city with an already high CoL and professional wages stuck at early aughts levels. My GF and I are looking to buy right now and even though we are both ADs at successful design agencies we've been stuck in the mid-60s for years. That's just not much of an income (even combined) for this market.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 1:59 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Senor Cardgage at 1:59 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Latkes I work over on Howe near Arden and I see tons of homeless even out here
posted by Senor Cardgage at 1:59 PM on October 28, 2016
posted by Senor Cardgage at 1:59 PM on October 28, 2016
Alright! Now that Sacramento has gone to shit they'll finally repeal prop 13 and give the CA real estate market the laxative it needs.
posted by GuyZero at 2:01 PM on October 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 2:01 PM on October 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
This bit from the second link is kind of frustrating:
There aren't infinity people who want to live in Sacremento. It stands to reason that if prices are getting out of reach, the city should look into reducing the things that are limiting supply. But I guess high-density housing is the devil, so....
posted by sparklemotion at 2:01 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Affordable housing advocates are urging state lawmakers to approve a measure that would invest a billion dollars from the state's General Fund for affordable housing projects.I'd really want to know what the real differences between "invest[ing in]... affordable housing projects" and "easing regulations on homebuilding" are. It seems like a two pronged solution would probably work best. I'm not naive enough to assume that the "critics" aren't only proposing solutions that are of benefit to a Certain Kind of potential homeowner, but if making it easier to build McMansions also makes it easier to build affordable townhomes (or the like) it seems like a win-win.
Critics say the state should emphasize easing regulations on homebuilding instead.
There aren't infinity people who want to live in Sacremento. It stands to reason that if prices are getting out of reach, the city should look into reducing the things that are limiting supply. But I guess high-density housing is the devil, so....
posted by sparklemotion at 2:01 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Actually it's that we're not going to shit that is causing the problem. We're becoming the New Hotness now and are getting lots of Bay Area transplants flush with Bay Area cash who are realizing what we've been building under the radar over here.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 2:03 PM on October 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Senor Cardgage at 2:03 PM on October 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
Average wage earners in Sacramento, who can afford a roughly $250,000 house...
I know shit's more expensive in California, but...damn...An average wage-earner can afford a $250,000 home?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:05 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I know shit's more expensive in California, but...damn...An average wage-earner can afford a $250,000 home?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:05 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
What's the endgame. A culture of widespread poverty?
They're hoping everyone else starves to death basically
posted by The Whelk at 2:10 PM on October 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
They're hoping everyone else starves to death basically
posted by The Whelk at 2:10 PM on October 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
Isn't this pretty much every city in the U.S. and Canada these days? Just fill in the blanks for your own city's real estate article!
Isn't this also happening in Australia and the U.K. and Singapore and Hong Kong as well? Guess it basically holds for anywhere in the Anglosphere.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:11 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Isn't this also happening in Australia and the U.K. and Singapore and Hong Kong as well? Guess it basically holds for anywhere in the Anglosphere.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:11 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Latkes I work over on Howe near Arden and I see tons of homeless even out here
posted by Senor Cardgage 22 minutes ago [+] [!]
That is a huge change from 10 years ago.
posted by latkes at 2:24 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Senor Cardgage 22 minutes ago [+] [!]
That is a huge change from 10 years ago.
posted by latkes at 2:24 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Everyone with money is moving to urban areas, which causes real estate prices to go up. Meanwhile, wage stagnation. Q.E.D.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:27 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:27 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I can respond to this news no other way than with incoherent screaming
Fucking fuck
posted by sunset in snow country at 2:30 PM on October 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Fucking fuck
posted by sunset in snow country at 2:30 PM on October 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's not just wage stagnation - although that is a huge problem. And I think there's evidence it's not just a supply/demand problem. It's that the rich are over payed and under-taxed. I still find this data very compelling.
posted by latkes at 2:33 PM on October 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by latkes at 2:33 PM on October 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
Average wage earners in Sacramento, who can afford a roughly $250,000 house...
I know shit's more expensive in California, but...damn...An average wage-earner can afford a $250,000 home?
The US median household income is $50,000 (it's $10k more in Sacremento, but lets aim low). At 3.92% interest (that's the default Google's calculator gave me, bankrate is showing lower, but lets aim high on this one), a $250k loan (zero down payment), is a monthly payment of $1,182. Gross that up to $1,500 for utilities/property tax/insurance, and you're looking at 28% of gross income for housing costs.
I've always gone with a 30% of gross income is an affordable housing cost number... is there a different measure of affordability that I should be using?
posted by sparklemotion at 2:34 PM on October 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
I know shit's more expensive in California, but...damn...An average wage-earner can afford a $250,000 home?
The US median household income is $50,000 (it's $10k more in Sacremento, but lets aim low). At 3.92% interest (that's the default Google's calculator gave me, bankrate is showing lower, but lets aim high on this one), a $250k loan (zero down payment), is a monthly payment of $1,182. Gross that up to $1,500 for utilities/property tax/insurance, and you're looking at 28% of gross income for housing costs.
I've always gone with a 30% of gross income is an affordable housing cost number... is there a different measure of affordability that I should be using?
posted by sparklemotion at 2:34 PM on October 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
in recent years, buyers in the region’s most popular and affordable price ranges have been pushed out – first by cash-paying investors who scooped up homes by the thousands
That's a critical, critical point. Right after the housing collapse of '08, investors (lots of REITS, commercial property management firms, etc) took a ton of ownership stock off of the market and converted it to rental stock. This is part of what has happened in all of the major metro areas and directly contributes to inflated prices and low inventory.
@latkes: That data is compelling. I found this quote puzzling, though:
I have no explanation for why rents were high in 1998 and low in 2005.
In 1998 the dot com bubble was rapidly inflating and you had people flooding into SF from all over the country, out-bidding each other on rental units. In 2005 SF was still recovering from the bubble bursting and zero-interest mortgages made it a buyer's market, lowering the value of rental stock.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:40 PM on October 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
That's a critical, critical point. Right after the housing collapse of '08, investors (lots of REITS, commercial property management firms, etc) took a ton of ownership stock off of the market and converted it to rental stock. This is part of what has happened in all of the major metro areas and directly contributes to inflated prices and low inventory.
@latkes: That data is compelling. I found this quote puzzling, though:
I have no explanation for why rents were high in 1998 and low in 2005.
In 1998 the dot com bubble was rapidly inflating and you had people flooding into SF from all over the country, out-bidding each other on rental units. In 2005 SF was still recovering from the bubble bursting and zero-interest mortgages made it a buyer's market, lowering the value of rental stock.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:40 PM on October 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
I own a home in Sacramento, but the only way I was able to pull it off was by buying the house I grew up in from my parents. They bought it in 1978, but it had been refinanced so many times I didn't get much of a discount.
Recently they've been trying to talk me into moving to Susanville, where you can buy a house for less than half of what houses cost down here. I refused, as much as I'd love to be closer to them, because I'd never be able to afford a house in Sacramento again and I'll be damned if I'm going to spend the rest of my life in Susanville.
posted by elsietheeel at 2:43 PM on October 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
Recently they've been trying to talk me into moving to Susanville, where you can buy a house for less than half of what houses cost down here. I refused, as much as I'd love to be closer to them, because I'd never be able to afford a house in Sacramento again and I'll be damned if I'm going to spend the rest of my life in Susanville.
posted by elsietheeel at 2:43 PM on October 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
Also rents in Sacramento have been affected as well. In 1995, my first apartment was $340 a month. In 2001, a similar apartment cost me $695. And now, comparable 1 bedroom apartments go for $1,100 or more.
And while it's not 1995 and I'm not making $6 an hour at StateNet anymore, my income hasn't increased in concert with the rise in rent.
posted by elsietheeel at 2:49 PM on October 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
And while it's not 1995 and I'm not making $6 an hour at StateNet anymore, my income hasn't increased in concert with the rise in rent.
posted by elsietheeel at 2:49 PM on October 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
I grew up in Sacramento and just moved back to the area. It's shocking. There seems to be tons of new development, but it's all priced over $300K.
I moved from rural Western Massachusetts and still have my Zillow search alerts set for there. I wince and cry every time I get one because it's so much cheaper out there!
posted by apricot at 2:50 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I moved from rural Western Massachusetts and still have my Zillow search alerts set for there. I wince and cry every time I get one because it's so much cheaper out there!
posted by apricot at 2:50 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I moved from rural Western Massachusetts and still have my Zillow search alerts set for there. I wince and cry every time I get one because it's so much cheaper out there!
I have Zillow alerts for western Michigan and I do the same thing. What's that? A five bedroom, two bath farmhouse on five acres for $65,000? Shut your damn face.
posted by elsietheeel at 2:52 PM on October 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
I have Zillow alerts for western Michigan and I do the same thing. What's that? A five bedroom, two bath farmhouse on five acres for $65,000? Shut your damn face.
posted by elsietheeel at 2:52 PM on October 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
That's a critical, critical point. Right after the housing collapse of '08, investors (lots of REITS, commercial property management firms, etc) took a ton of ownership stock off of the market and converted it to rental stock. This is part of what has happened in all of the major metro areas and directly contributes to inflated prices and low inventory.
I hear people talk about this and I'm curious (genuinely) if we have good data to support this idea. Has the ratio of rental to owner occupied housing stock changed? Also, is there solid evidence of the idea that "foreign" investments have increased?
posted by latkes at 2:55 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I hear people talk about this and I'm curious (genuinely) if we have good data to support this idea. Has the ratio of rental to owner occupied housing stock changed? Also, is there solid evidence of the idea that "foreign" investments have increased?
posted by latkes at 2:55 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I moved from rural Western Massachusetts and still have my Zillow search alerts set for there.
I have Zillow alerts for western Michigan and I do the same thing.
Yeah, well, the population of those states has been pretty much flat since 1980 where California has gone from 23M to 39M so, you know, that demand part of supply and demand.
posted by GuyZero at 2:56 PM on October 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
I have Zillow alerts for western Michigan and I do the same thing.
Yeah, well, the population of those states has been pretty much flat since 1980 where California has gone from 23M to 39M so, you know, that demand part of supply and demand.
posted by GuyZero at 2:56 PM on October 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
Damnit I'm third generation, you can't make me leave!
posted by elsietheeel at 2:57 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by elsietheeel at 2:57 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have Zillow alerts for western Michigan and I do the same thing.
I'll see your western Michigan and raise you western New York state. A beautiful 14-room Victorian home ON A LAKE for $70,000. But no jobs in the area at all. Despite the government constantly trying to entice businesses to move there.
People are weird.
posted by Melismata at 2:58 PM on October 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
I'll see your western Michigan and raise you western New York state. A beautiful 14-room Victorian home ON A LAKE for $70,000. But no jobs in the area at all. Despite the government constantly trying to entice businesses to move there.
People are weird.
posted by Melismata at 2:58 PM on October 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
MOAR TELECOMMUTING
posted by elsietheeel at 2:59 PM on October 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by elsietheeel at 2:59 PM on October 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
A beautiful 14-room Victorian home ON A LAKE for $70,000.
Oh yeah, I read my kids that book.
posted by GuyZero at 3:01 PM on October 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh yeah, I read my kids that book.
posted by GuyZero at 3:01 PM on October 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
I still remember the Sacramento Flippers In Trouble blog from 2006-2007, just before the recession hit. It covered both luxury houses and fixer uppers. I was amazed back then by the asking prices for some of the cheap, tiny ranch houses.
It's old posts are still on line. See 2007 here.
Back then, the asking prices keep dropping. And the houses that had previous recent sales had huge price jumps in just a few years.
For example:
Total Loss: $262,100 Percent Loss: 38.2%
Asking Price: $424,900
Bedrooms:4 Baths: 3 Sq. feet:2700
Listing History:
Down 46.8% from $799,000 On 2006-11-24
Down 46.4% from $793,000 On 2007-03-03
Down 45.5% from $779,000 On 2007-03-24
Days on market: 400
# of Times Listed: 3
Previous Sales:
Sold on 2005-07-15 for $687,000
posted by jjj606 at 3:12 PM on October 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's old posts are still on line. See 2007 here.
Back then, the asking prices keep dropping. And the houses that had previous recent sales had huge price jumps in just a few years.
For example:
Total Loss: $262,100 Percent Loss: 38.2%
Asking Price: $424,900
Bedrooms:4 Baths: 3 Sq. feet:2700
Listing History:
Down 46.8% from $799,000 On 2006-11-24
Down 46.4% from $793,000 On 2007-03-03
Down 45.5% from $779,000 On 2007-03-24
Days on market: 400
# of Times Listed: 3
Previous Sales:
Sold on 2005-07-15 for $687,000
posted by jjj606 at 3:12 PM on October 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh man, jjj606, that gives me memories of Casey Serin related schadenfreude. Some of his old posts are still up.
posted by sparklemotion at 3:26 PM on October 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by sparklemotion at 3:26 PM on October 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Isn't this pretty much every city in the U.S. and Canada these days?
Nope. Buffalo is a city. So is Cleveland. So are Atlanta, and Dallas, and Columbia, and San Antonio...
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:44 PM on October 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Nope. Buffalo is a city. So is Cleveland. So are Atlanta, and Dallas, and Columbia, and San Antonio...
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:44 PM on October 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
My family has been in California since 1850. Shouldn't I get a break? I'm not one of these outsiders bringing up house prices! ;)
(I was living in Western Massachusetts for grad school, and wish we could have stayed but family and...wait for it...a better paying job brought us back. I miss everything about it but the economic stagnation.)
posted by apricot at 3:45 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
(I was living in Western Massachusetts for grad school, and wish we could have stayed but family and...wait for it...a better paying job brought us back. I miss everything about it but the economic stagnation.)
posted by apricot at 3:45 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Isn't this pretty much every city in the U.S. and Canada these days?
Median price for a home here in Pittsburgh is still just $116K although that's up 12% this past year. It's not quite like when I moved here in '89 and bought a six bedroom Edwardian foursquare with 12 stained glass windows for $43K but it's still pretty afordable here.
posted by octothorpe at 3:49 PM on October 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Median price for a home here in Pittsburgh is still just $116K although that's up 12% this past year. It's not quite like when I moved here in '89 and bought a six bedroom Edwardian foursquare with 12 stained glass windows for $43K but it's still pretty afordable here.
posted by octothorpe at 3:49 PM on October 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Isn't this pretty much every city in the U.S. and Canada these days?It's not true where I live. At least, it's not true yet. It takes a while for coastal trends to make their way to us, so maybe it will happen in six to eight years.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:50 PM on October 28, 2016
The design podcast 99% Invisible has an interesting episode about a Chilean solution for building low-income housing: build half a house and let the occupiers do the rest.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:56 PM on October 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:56 PM on October 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Kingston is nowhere near a bedroom community for any of the three major cities that are around us (Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal) so we are still technically affordable, and barring some massive influx of well-paying jobs that aren't dependent on Queen's/KGH/RMC, it might stay that way. My partner and I are well aware that in Ontario, we lucked out in being able to afford a 4 bedroom/1.5 house in a downtown neighbourhood. Mind you, if we decide to leave the Limestone City in a few years, Toronto--despite being where the jobs in our fields are--is always going to be off-limits. (Hamilton finally went out of our price range this past summer, if the news is anything to go by.)
posted by Kitteh at 4:01 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 4:01 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Isn't this also happening in Australia and the U.K. and Singapore and Hong Kong as well? Guess it basically holds for anywhere in the Anglosphere.
In Australia, the main cause is currently seen as a kind of intergenerational structural conflict: baby boomers who already have their own houses as assets are using them as security to make speculative real estate investments, on the premise that property prices are rising faster than just about any other investment around - which they have been for easily a couple of decades.
This is assisted by generous tax benefits that encourage exactly the kind of bubble-fuelling speculation that is driving up the prices that the speculators are trying to ride.
Foreign investment & immigration get a bit of blame as well from the racist right, but most serious commentators recognise the tax benefits as the elephant in the room that no politician is willing to touch, for fear of alienating such a large voting bloc, who are planning to fund their retirement in large part through these real estate assets.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:04 PM on October 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
In Australia, the main cause is currently seen as a kind of intergenerational structural conflict: baby boomers who already have their own houses as assets are using them as security to make speculative real estate investments, on the premise that property prices are rising faster than just about any other investment around - which they have been for easily a couple of decades.
This is assisted by generous tax benefits that encourage exactly the kind of bubble-fuelling speculation that is driving up the prices that the speculators are trying to ride.
Foreign investment & immigration get a bit of blame as well from the racist right, but most serious commentators recognise the tax benefits as the elephant in the room that no politician is willing to touch, for fear of alienating such a large voting bloc, who are planning to fund their retirement in large part through these real estate assets.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:04 PM on October 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
Toronto--despite being where the jobs in our fields are--is always going to be off-limits.
Nah, you get a raise for being in Toronto and you ratchet up the debt like everyone else.
posted by GuyZero at 4:04 PM on October 28, 2016
Nah, you get a raise for being in Toronto and you ratchet up the debt like everyone else.
posted by GuyZero at 4:04 PM on October 28, 2016
Ha! Not interested in that. We are very fortunate in that the only debt we have is the mortgage on this place. I hear about what Torontonians pay for monthly mortgages for detached/semi-detached and I think the stress of trying to ensure I still had a roof over my head with that kind of mortgage/property tax would kill me.
posted by Kitteh at 4:07 PM on October 28, 2016
posted by Kitteh at 4:07 PM on October 28, 2016
"If this keeps going, everyone is fucked. If this ever stops, everyone is fucked"
That was my thought looking at the skyline on a flight into Vancouver recently. It's really hard to see how any of these cities with massively inflated prices keep existing as cities "Hey, do you want to experience the joy of having high income and no money? Move to (any city you've heard of or any adjacent community!"). It's also hard to see how any of them can weather a downturn without so much capital being destroyed as to give us all nasty flashbacks to 2008. As far as I can see, either there's a cultural adjustment and a huge demographic cohort just stop trying to own homes, in which case, market downturn, fucked; Or something else happens to deflate the market, in which case market downturn, fucked; or it just keeps going, in which case ???, fucked.
posted by Grimgrin at 4:28 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
That was my thought looking at the skyline on a flight into Vancouver recently. It's really hard to see how any of these cities with massively inflated prices keep existing as cities "Hey, do you want to experience the joy of having high income and no money? Move to (any city you've heard of or any adjacent community!"). It's also hard to see how any of them can weather a downturn without so much capital being destroyed as to give us all nasty flashbacks to 2008. As far as I can see, either there's a cultural adjustment and a huge demographic cohort just stop trying to own homes, in which case, market downturn, fucked; Or something else happens to deflate the market, in which case market downturn, fucked; or it just keeps going, in which case ???, fucked.
posted by Grimgrin at 4:28 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Atlanta is going the same way, unless you want to live in Gwinnett. I do not want to live in Gwinnett.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:33 PM on October 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:33 PM on October 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
I do not want to live in Gwinnett.
When my husband used to visit me in Atlanta, one of the very first things he learned was ITP and OTP.
posted by Kitteh at 4:35 PM on October 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
When my husband used to visit me in Atlanta, one of the very first things he learned was ITP and OTP.
posted by Kitteh at 4:35 PM on October 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
who are realizing what we've been building under the radar over here.
I grew up there and hated that place so hard it has basically become my mental stand-in for everything awful about America, just endless sprawling miles of oven-hot suburban chain-store hell devoid of cultural energy or really any redeeming qualities as a place to live beyond being, you know, not actually positioned inside a nuclear test site or the caldera of an active volcano. Is it different now? What happened?
posted by crotchety old git at 4:51 PM on October 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
I grew up there and hated that place so hard it has basically become my mental stand-in for everything awful about America, just endless sprawling miles of oven-hot suburban chain-store hell devoid of cultural energy or really any redeeming qualities as a place to live beyond being, you know, not actually positioned inside a nuclear test site or the caldera of an active volcano. Is it different now? What happened?
posted by crotchety old git at 4:51 PM on October 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Hi, another Sacramento resident here. A friend just posted this listing and I thought I would share.
posted by Duffington at 4:53 PM on October 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Duffington at 4:53 PM on October 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is it different now? What happened?
Talent stayed, transplants (like myself, 17 years ago) came and stayed and we all just started stuff. Art projects, club nights, magazines, bands, and so many amazing restaurants.
Midtown has become a brilliant (which is why a lot of us are getting priced out) walkable wonderland of cool stuff. And its still getting better and now downtown is getting in on it and we have lots of districts that have popped up carrying seeds of what midtown started.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 4:55 PM on October 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Talent stayed, transplants (like myself, 17 years ago) came and stayed and we all just started stuff. Art projects, club nights, magazines, bands, and so many amazing restaurants.
Midtown has become a brilliant (which is why a lot of us are getting priced out) walkable wonderland of cool stuff. And its still getting better and now downtown is getting in on it and we have lots of districts that have popped up carrying seeds of what midtown started.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 4:55 PM on October 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
(In response to "Isn't this pretty much every city?")
ROU_Xenophobe: Nope. ...and Dallas, ... and San Antonio
posted by fireoyster at 4:56 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
ROU_Xenophobe: Nope. ...and Dallas, ... and San Antonio
- San Antonio has 4th most overvalued housing market - San Antonio Express-News
- S.A. in tighest housing market in decades - San Antonio Express-News
- Dallas real estate market is going wild as houses snapped up in days - Marketwatch
- ...Dallas home prices rising at blazing pace - Dallas Morning News
posted by fireoyster at 4:56 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Its still hot here though, but I am an iguana so I dig that.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 4:59 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Senor Cardgage at 4:59 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Okay, but the numbers I pulled up said that the average home prices in Dallas and San Antonio were like $120-140K. That might be up from where it was a few years ago, but it's still far from CA.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:00 PM on October 28, 2016
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:00 PM on October 28, 2016
I'd really want to know what the real differences between "invest[ing in]... affordable housing projects" and "easing regulations on homebuilding" are.
The first option generally looks like "agree to charge affordable rents for X years and get a break on property taxes" or even "provide a lower-rate loan to developers in exchange for affordable rents for X years." Actually building public housing remains off limits other than "the PJs". Reconsidering laws on leasing to make possible German-style long-term renting remains off-limits, in part because the tax incentives to buy are skewed.
(I'm iffy about municipal governments becoming de facto mortgage lenders for private developers; I'd sooner they actually built rental housing.)
baby boomers who already have their own houses as assets are using them as security to make speculative real estate investments, on the premise that property prices are rising faster than just about any other investment around - which they have been for easily a couple of decades.
Oh yeah, the buy-to-let brigade. Big thing in the UK, and a lot of shitty landlords who think they're property magnates and see tenants as nothing other than cash cows. There's a more reasonable variation, where empty-nester property owners in their sixties ('boomer' gets blurry outside the US) are keeping their bigger houses instead of downsizing because they're thinking of a time when they may need to pay for assisted living or some other kind of old-age care. But that's still a kind of economic sclerosis.
posted by holgate at 5:02 PM on October 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
The first option generally looks like "agree to charge affordable rents for X years and get a break on property taxes" or even "provide a lower-rate loan to developers in exchange for affordable rents for X years." Actually building public housing remains off limits other than "the PJs". Reconsidering laws on leasing to make possible German-style long-term renting remains off-limits, in part because the tax incentives to buy are skewed.
(I'm iffy about municipal governments becoming de facto mortgage lenders for private developers; I'd sooner they actually built rental housing.)
baby boomers who already have their own houses as assets are using them as security to make speculative real estate investments, on the premise that property prices are rising faster than just about any other investment around - which they have been for easily a couple of decades.
Oh yeah, the buy-to-let brigade. Big thing in the UK, and a lot of shitty landlords who think they're property magnates and see tenants as nothing other than cash cows. There's a more reasonable variation, where empty-nester property owners in their sixties ('boomer' gets blurry outside the US) are keeping their bigger houses instead of downsizing because they're thinking of a time when they may need to pay for assisted living or some other kind of old-age care. But that's still a kind of economic sclerosis.
posted by holgate at 5:02 PM on October 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think convention economic wisdom goes that inflation should bring the house values back in check, Grimgrin, along with obliterating everyone's savings and transferring all the wealth to nations that actually make stuff, like China. Ain't seeming so likely anytime soon. It's preferable if house values simply crashed by say 80% of course, but that's sounds unlikely too.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:10 PM on October 28, 2016
posted by jeffburdges at 5:10 PM on October 28, 2016
And that's fair, ROU_Xenophobe. I was making the point that everywhere with jobs (or even the potential for jobs) is going up drastically in comparison to where they used to be. But even Dallas' metro area has cracked $200k. My crappy little first house in a northern suburb, 30 minutes by toll road to anywhere worth working when I lived there, is now worth $201k. I paid $134k for it in 2003 (don't own it any more). The drastic rise comes from huge employers moving in almost literally down the street. But the sprawl of Dallas means that values will be kept somewhat in check, though people will be driving in from the Red River...
posted by fireoyster at 5:13 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by fireoyster at 5:13 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'll see your western Michigan and raise you western New York state. A beautiful 14-room Victorian home ON A LAKE for $70,000.
You probably have to heat that by flapping your arms though.
A big part of the problem in Sac is that it's a little bump in a giant flood plain/ wetland. If it wasn't for the Yolo bypass it would be underwater every time it rains. The Sacramento River was tidal all the way to downtown before the 1850s sluice mining disaster filled the river with sediment all the way to SF Bay (then filled the bay too). There's only so many places to build out there. And everything in CA is a battle between crooked and shady developers and the army of permitting agencies trying to keep them in line, look at the Natomas fiasco
posted by fshgrl at 5:23 PM on October 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
You probably have to heat that by flapping your arms though.
A big part of the problem in Sac is that it's a little bump in a giant flood plain/ wetland. If it wasn't for the Yolo bypass it would be underwater every time it rains. The Sacramento River was tidal all the way to downtown before the 1850s sluice mining disaster filled the river with sediment all the way to SF Bay (then filled the bay too). There's only so many places to build out there. And everything in CA is a battle between crooked and shady developers and the army of permitting agencies trying to keep them in line, look at the Natomas fiasco
posted by fshgrl at 5:23 PM on October 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
This is one simulation of the area after a levee break . I believe this is the scenario that halted development: twenty feet of water. That's the ARCO arena btw, for locals.
posted by fshgrl at 5:30 PM on October 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 5:30 PM on October 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
I need to buy a boat O_O
posted by mikurski at 5:38 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mikurski at 5:38 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hi, the rest of the world, welcome to Vancouver 7 years ago! I suppose the one advantage of living here is that presumably we'll hit by whatever horrors the endgame of this ridiculousness is sooner. That's good, right?
posted by Jon Mitchell at 5:46 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Jon Mitchell at 5:46 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Fshgrl, after growing up here it's still weird seeing development in Natomas. I remember when building there wasn't allowed.
posted by apricot at 5:53 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by apricot at 5:53 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
baby boomers who already have their own houses as assets are using them as security to make speculative real estate investments, on the premise that property prices are rising faster than just about any other investment around - which they have been for easily a couple of decades.
Depends when and where you bought. If you're underwater, you may well be waiting for prices to recover.
posted by IndigoJones at 6:02 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Depends when and where you bought. If you're underwater, you may well be waiting for prices to recover.
posted by IndigoJones at 6:02 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
But I don't want to live somewhere shitty and cheap!
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:09 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:09 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
real-estate consumers
i.e. everybody except the homeless, or the nomadic, or those people who live on permanently-aloft helicarriers.
posted by HeroZero at 6:39 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
i.e. everybody except the homeless, or the nomadic, or those people who live on permanently-aloft helicarriers.
posted by HeroZero at 6:39 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
The design podcast 99% Invisible has an interesting episode about a Chilean solution for building low-income housing: build half a house and let the occupiers do the rest.
The problems we're discussing here aren't about construction costs. A home that costs 200k to buy in KC will cost a million dollars, even though the construction price is largely the same. It's the land underneath it that's scarce, relative to the population increase in the state.
posted by pwnguin at 7:07 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
The problems we're discussing here aren't about construction costs. A home that costs 200k to buy in KC will cost a million dollars, even though the construction price is largely the same. It's the land underneath it that's scarce, relative to the population increase in the state.
posted by pwnguin at 7:07 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's more expensive to build out infrastructure too than it is in the Midwest. Between seismic, water issues, getting permits etc. Even in rural areas water is scarce and septics are expensive or impossible a lot of places because it won't perc its pretty spendy to build in a lot of places in CA. And rural northern CA is rural I have lots of friends with no cell service or internet at home.
posted by fshgrl at 7:43 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 7:43 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
As a Sacramentan who is pleased to have seen his house increase in value by over 25% in 2 years, I hope the Legislature continues to ignore this report.
posted by vorpal bunny at 7:44 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by vorpal bunny at 7:44 PM on October 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Fshgrl, after growing up here it's still weird seeing development in Natomas. I remember when building there wasn't allowed.
It was completely underwater in 1996! I'd never buy a house there even with the upgraded levees.
posted by fshgrl at 7:47 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
It was completely underwater in 1996! I'd never buy a house there even with the upgraded levees.
posted by fshgrl at 7:47 PM on October 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
AISD (Austin Independent School District) has reported shrinking student enrollment for the past few years, and more to come. The “vast majority” of the predicted decline comes from Austin’s increasing housing and rental costs, Wilson said, but lower birth rates and competition from private and charter schools are also contributing factors.
Two days ago, the local paper reported some increases in AISD enrollment, brought about by fancy dancing moves IE bringing in new students by allowing transfers from other area school districts and expanding prekindergarten to 3-year-olds. But these moves are a levee made of straw and mud and popsicle sticks in the face of a fast-rising tide and they'll get overrun like New Orleans in hurricane Katrina.
Austin is exploding right now. I love it, personally (I got my name on a mortgage in 1993), huge, gorgeous, high-rise office and condo buildings are popping up like mushrooms in rich loam after a summer rain, and Austin is festival after festival after festival, pretty much year 'round, it's like living in Disneyland except for grownups. But many ppl loathe what's happened to lil ol' Austin (they didn't get their name on a mortgage in 1993), and many ppl have been forced out of town. Or have just left, hating the traffic*, hating what they see as Austin having turned into South Dallas.**
* valid point
** Which is true, to some extent, except not really -- take a quick trip up to Dallas, and get a feel of it, and you'll as soon as you possibly can come hurtling back down here and cast yourself upon the ground sobbing joyously, writhing in paroxysms of ecstasy........
posted by dancestoblue at 1:30 AM on October 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Two days ago, the local paper reported some increases in AISD enrollment, brought about by fancy dancing moves IE bringing in new students by allowing transfers from other area school districts and expanding prekindergarten to 3-year-olds. But these moves are a levee made of straw and mud and popsicle sticks in the face of a fast-rising tide and they'll get overrun like New Orleans in hurricane Katrina.
Austin is exploding right now. I love it, personally (I got my name on a mortgage in 1993), huge, gorgeous, high-rise office and condo buildings are popping up like mushrooms in rich loam after a summer rain, and Austin is festival after festival after festival, pretty much year 'round, it's like living in Disneyland except for grownups. But many ppl loathe what's happened to lil ol' Austin (they didn't get their name on a mortgage in 1993), and many ppl have been forced out of town. Or have just left, hating the traffic*, hating what they see as Austin having turned into South Dallas.**
* valid point
** Which is true, to some extent, except not really -- take a quick trip up to Dallas, and get a feel of it, and you'll as soon as you possibly can come hurtling back down here and cast yourself upon the ground sobbing joyously, writhing in paroxysms of ecstasy........
posted by dancestoblue at 1:30 AM on October 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
BBC Two touched on this subject in it's illuminating documentary The Super-Rich and Us.
Emerging from centuries of lords owning all of the land, the realistic dream of a working class family owning a home emerged briefly in the 20th century, only now to revert to eternal tenancy under the new landlords.
posted by fairmettle at 1:46 AM on October 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Emerging from centuries of lords owning all of the land, the realistic dream of a working class family owning a home emerged briefly in the 20th century, only now to revert to eternal tenancy under the new landlords.
posted by fairmettle at 1:46 AM on October 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Duffington, that's a million dollar house in Sydney. I wish I was joking.
posted by Jubey at 4:28 AM on October 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Jubey at 4:28 AM on October 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
a $250k loan (zero down payment), is a monthly payment of $1,182.
Don't forget PMI. I just bought an approx. 250k home in Minneapolis and with PMI/taxes/insurance my payment is closer to $1900 a month.
posted by cabingirl at 5:25 AM on October 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Don't forget PMI. I just bought an approx. 250k home in Minneapolis and with PMI/taxes/insurance my payment is closer to $1900 a month.
posted by cabingirl at 5:25 AM on October 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Don't come to Milwaukee, where you can rent a nice 2 br flat for $600 in a safe neighborhood with a good school district, or an AMAZING 4 bedroom Victorian near the lake for $1995. or buy a gorgeous 3 bedroom colonial for $150,000.
Seriously, stay out.
posted by AFABulous at 7:01 AM on October 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Seriously, stay out.
posted by AFABulous at 7:01 AM on October 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
er, that 2 bedroom is $700. But still! $700 for a 2 bedroom! I might investigate that, I'm currently in a one bedroom for $575. My rent hasn't gone up in over 2 years.
posted by AFABulous at 7:17 AM on October 29, 2016
posted by AFABulous at 7:17 AM on October 29, 2016
I'm in LA and all these prices people are listing are making me cry in a different way.
posted by sprezzy at 7:46 AM on October 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by sprezzy at 7:46 AM on October 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
This isn't a problem that's isolated to California, it's a nationwide issue in the US. Cities everywhere are growing at a rate that exceeds the capacity of existing housing. Plenty of people in my city hate the new "luxury" construction projects that are going up, which is mostly a symptom of a tight housing market.
I actually support many of those projects because they prevent displacement. Rich people need places to live in cities, and the alternative is renovating existing housing stock with fancy upgrades to cater to the wealthy. By building more housing, existing residents can stay where they are and wealthy residents have new places to live.
I did a FPP on YIMBYs awhile back that has some links if anyone's interested. The goal of many YIMBYs is to keep housing costs low, and that means building both market-rate and affordable housing. Either way, if we have *more* housing, that empowers renters to tell their landlords to take a hike if rents keep going up. It also empowers new homebuyers to choose from more options in a very tight housing market.
posted by antonymous at 9:10 AM on October 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
I actually support many of those projects because they prevent displacement. Rich people need places to live in cities, and the alternative is renovating existing housing stock with fancy upgrades to cater to the wealthy. By building more housing, existing residents can stay where they are and wealthy residents have new places to live.
I did a FPP on YIMBYs awhile back that has some links if anyone's interested. The goal of many YIMBYs is to keep housing costs low, and that means building both market-rate and affordable housing. Either way, if we have *more* housing, that empowers renters to tell their landlords to take a hike if rents keep going up. It also empowers new homebuyers to choose from more options in a very tight housing market.
posted by antonymous at 9:10 AM on October 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Austin is exploding right now. I love it, personally (I got my name on a mortgage in 1993), huge, gorgeous, high-rise office and condo buildings are popping up like mushrooms in rich loam after a summer rain, and Austin is festival after festival after festival, pretty much year 'round, it's like living in Disneyland except for grownups. But many ppl loathe what's happened to lil ol' Austin (they didn't get their name on a mortgage in 1993), and many ppl have been forced out of town. Or have just left, hating the traffic*, hating what they see as Austin having turned into South Dallas.**
Substitute Nashville as the place name and you have the story of the last 10 years in Davidson County in a nutshell.
I don't think the huge highrises are gorgeous, though. They're a blight, they ruin the city's skyline and bring traffic to a standstill, and most of them are half-empty shells for investor Ponzi schemes.
posted by blucevalo at 9:12 AM on October 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Substitute Nashville as the place name and you have the story of the last 10 years in Davidson County in a nutshell.
I don't think the huge highrises are gorgeous, though. They're a blight, they ruin the city's skyline and bring traffic to a standstill, and most of them are half-empty shells for investor Ponzi schemes.
posted by blucevalo at 9:12 AM on October 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
A big part of the problem in Sac is that it's a little bump in a giant flood plain/ wetland. If it wasn't for the Yolo bypass it would be underwater every time it rains. The Sacramento River was tidal all the way to downtown before the 1850s sluice mining disaster filled the river with sediment all the way to SF Bay (then filled the bay too).
I had never heard of this mining disaster so I went off to Wikipedia and found the Great Flood of 1862, wherein
And also learned about the ARkStorm scenario, which estimates modern day damages based on a winter storm similar to the one implicated in the 1862 flood (it is grim).
posted by indubitable at 9:19 AM on October 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I had never heard of this mining disaster so I went off to Wikipedia and found the Great Flood of 1862, wherein
The entire Sacramento and San Joaquin valleys were inundated. An area about 300 miles (480 km) long, averaging 20 miles (32 km) in width,[15] and covering 5,000 to 6,000 square miles (13,000 to 16,000 km2) was under water.[9] The water flooding the Central Valley reached depths up to 30 feet (9.1 m), completely submerging telegraph poles that had just been installed between San Francisco and New York. Transportation, mail, and communications across the state were disrupted for a month.[16] Water covered portions of the valley from December 1861, through the spring, and into the summer of 1862.[9]!!!
And also learned about the ARkStorm scenario, which estimates modern day damages based on a winter storm similar to the one implicated in the 1862 flood (it is grim).
posted by indubitable at 9:19 AM on October 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I do not want to live in Gwinnett.
Nobody wants to live in Gwinnett.
posted by thivaia at 9:29 AM on October 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Nobody wants to live in Gwinnett.
posted by thivaia at 9:29 AM on October 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I do not want to live in Gwinnett.
Nobody wants to live in Gwinnett.
True, but I'd rather live there than Cobb.
posted by madcaptenor at 10:34 AM on October 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Nobody wants to live in Gwinnett.
True, but I'd rather live there than Cobb.
posted by madcaptenor at 10:34 AM on October 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Nobody wants to live in Gwinnett.
I talked about places like Gwinnett in one of the election threads, and of course there was that odd Boston Globe piece about the changing demographics of Norcross last month.
There are "nobody wants to live there / so many people do live there" places in every metro area. There have always been those transitional communities, except they were once in the middle of cities and lived in tenements and boarding-houses (or, if you were lucky, small well-built cottages owned by the factory to keep the workforce close by and punctual).
American suburbia was built upon the idea of keeping the city out, which is why the infrastructure is so fucked, and also on an aversion to shared public space, which explains why there's such a queasy reaction to those OTP burbs getting more diverse and a little bit rougher at the edges. It exposes the difference between "afford a house" and "afford somewhere to live right now". Cities and metro areas need to think about the "somewhere to live right now" people, but because the reach of government is so (deliberately) splintered, that's not going to change quickly or easily.
posted by holgate at 10:56 AM on October 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I talked about places like Gwinnett in one of the election threads, and of course there was that odd Boston Globe piece about the changing demographics of Norcross last month.
There are "nobody wants to live there / so many people do live there" places in every metro area. There have always been those transitional communities, except they were once in the middle of cities and lived in tenements and boarding-houses (or, if you were lucky, small well-built cottages owned by the factory to keep the workforce close by and punctual).
American suburbia was built upon the idea of keeping the city out, which is why the infrastructure is so fucked, and also on an aversion to shared public space, which explains why there's such a queasy reaction to those OTP burbs getting more diverse and a little bit rougher at the edges. It exposes the difference between "afford a house" and "afford somewhere to live right now". Cities and metro areas need to think about the "somewhere to live right now" people, but because the reach of government is so (deliberately) splintered, that's not going to change quickly or easily.
posted by holgate at 10:56 AM on October 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
It rained so much in January 1862 that Lake Tahoe rose 6 inches in a week, the American River rose 55 feet in a week, the Bay rose 7 feet and turned fresh enough to be used in steamships and the tides couldn't get in the Golden Gate for over a week against the flow of freshwater. It stayed fresh enough for freshwater fish to live in it for at least a month. There was a deep freeze just after the worst of the flood and ice piled onto the land in ice tsunamis and crushed everything in its way. One quarter of the taxable real estate in CA was destroyed in a week. The State government was effectively shut down for over a year and the ranching industry was destroyed.
I'm slightly obsessed with this flood and the fact no one who lives in the affected areas seems to know about it. The record shows about 5 storms of this magnitude in the past 2000 years btw :)
Here's a picture of the inundated areas.
posted by fshgrl at 11:25 AM on October 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
I'm slightly obsessed with this flood and the fact no one who lives in the affected areas seems to know about it. The record shows about 5 storms of this magnitude in the past 2000 years btw :)
Here's a picture of the inundated areas.
posted by fshgrl at 11:25 AM on October 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
Another issue that hasn't been mentioned AFAIK is the median Millenial is age 25 this year, so the front half of the baby boom echo is now in the housing market, while few boomers have yet to move on and free up stock.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=85nd
blue is working population, red is incomes for Sacramento
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_and_Poverty
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 11:37 AM on October 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=85nd
blue is working population, red is incomes for Sacramento
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_and_Poverty
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 11:37 AM on October 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
The US median household income is $50,000 (it's $10k more in Sacremento, but lets aim low). At 3.92% interest (that's the default Google's calculator gave me, bankrate is showing lower, but lets aim high on this one), a $250k loan (zero down payment), is a monthly payment of $1,182. Gross that up to $1,500 for utilities/property tax/insurance, and you're looking at 28% of gross income for housing costs.
I've always gone with a 30% of gross income is an affordable housing cost number... is there a different measure of affordability that I should be using?
I don't know anything about Sacramento, but in many places your allowance for utilities/tax/insurance is super low. My taxes and insurance alone are much more than that $318 difference, on a house which cost less than half of that price. Utility bills easily add another $300 on top of that. And of course there are maintenance costs which you're also ignoring.
posted by enn at 12:42 PM on October 29, 2016
I've always gone with a 30% of gross income is an affordable housing cost number... is there a different measure of affordability that I should be using?
I don't know anything about Sacramento, but in many places your allowance for utilities/tax/insurance is super low. My taxes and insurance alone are much more than that $318 difference, on a house which cost less than half of that price. Utility bills easily add another $300 on top of that. And of course there are maintenance costs which you're also ignoring.
posted by enn at 12:42 PM on October 29, 2016
Sewer/Garbage: $90
Water: $30
Electricity/Gas: $150
I can't speak to taxes, because I bought from my parents and was grandfathered into their 1978 tax rates.
posted by elsietheeel at 3:39 PM on October 29, 2016
Water: $30
Electricity/Gas: $150
I can't speak to taxes, because I bought from my parents and was grandfathered into their 1978 tax rates.
posted by elsietheeel at 3:39 PM on October 29, 2016
An interesting long-form in the Bee. I know the co-author as a fellow dad: I knew he did this sort of work so when I saw the length figured correctly he was in on it.
The market here has been interesting as long as I've lived here. The influence of Bay Area money both here and around the region comes and goes. I was kind of taken aback to hear of this fair city referred to as a "bedroom community" as its a righteous pain in the ass and only worth it when the market is strongly undervalued by comparison. (Apparently its like 1 in 7 paychecks though maybe more like 1 in 20 Sacramentans actually schlep it) Its hard not to see this as egress eastward: I started wondering where the new exurbia for Sacramentans might be and found Woodland is startingly $350K at midrange.
Woodland.
Dixon is still a value, commuters, freeway-close! Don't miss out like you did in Winters! And, apparently, Rio Linda.
The megainvestment in rental properties by Blackstone was at the time seen as a great thing because the rental market had been a pain in the ass and suddenly the sales market looked a lot rosier.
What we haven't seen is what we saw last time things went bughouse in the Bay Area -- an uptick in local tech jobs from companies and investors who decided there was enough going on west of us and we were a better value. There have been a couple of gnarly layoffs recently in that sector.
It'll be interesting for a while, hell its always been interesting. This is the second big cycle I've seen from boom to bust.. Lots of the mid market got washed out of the market for a while by the recession and are not surprisingly consuming the rental market produced from the homes they lost. Its not surprising what's being built is for thems with lots of bucks and easy credit.
The building here is largely in dribs and drabs, its not like there's a lack of space but a lack of interest in developing it since the recession. Some interesting stuff going on in midtown, downtown is currently under massive reconstruction to help empty the wallets of 17K recently-arrived stadium attendees on like 70 nights a year. West Sac is trying to develop up, the railyyards are whevs.
Every so often I reflect its been a long time since this local dude sang about how his apartment came with built-in grime -- nowadays all those places are around the corner from boutiques. Same dude pointed out that it was quite a battle living in the shadow of the capitol, whoa-oh, deliverin'.
That dude is now a major restaurateur.
Weird place, this town.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 12:53 AM on October 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
The market here has been interesting as long as I've lived here. The influence of Bay Area money both here and around the region comes and goes. I was kind of taken aback to hear of this fair city referred to as a "bedroom community" as its a righteous pain in the ass and only worth it when the market is strongly undervalued by comparison. (Apparently its like 1 in 7 paychecks though maybe more like 1 in 20 Sacramentans actually schlep it) Its hard not to see this as egress eastward: I started wondering where the new exurbia for Sacramentans might be and found Woodland is startingly $350K at midrange.
Woodland.
Dixon is still a value, commuters, freeway-close! Don't miss out like you did in Winters! And, apparently, Rio Linda.
The megainvestment in rental properties by Blackstone was at the time seen as a great thing because the rental market had been a pain in the ass and suddenly the sales market looked a lot rosier.
What we haven't seen is what we saw last time things went bughouse in the Bay Area -- an uptick in local tech jobs from companies and investors who decided there was enough going on west of us and we were a better value. There have been a couple of gnarly layoffs recently in that sector.
It'll be interesting for a while, hell its always been interesting. This is the second big cycle I've seen from boom to bust.. Lots of the mid market got washed out of the market for a while by the recession and are not surprisingly consuming the rental market produced from the homes they lost. Its not surprising what's being built is for thems with lots of bucks and easy credit.
The building here is largely in dribs and drabs, its not like there's a lack of space but a lack of interest in developing it since the recession. Some interesting stuff going on in midtown, downtown is currently under massive reconstruction to help empty the wallets of 17K recently-arrived stadium attendees on like 70 nights a year. West Sac is trying to develop up, the railyyards are whevs.
Every so often I reflect its been a long time since this local dude sang about how his apartment came with built-in grime -- nowadays all those places are around the corner from boutiques. Same dude pointed out that it was quite a battle living in the shadow of the capitol, whoa-oh, deliverin'.
That dude is now a major restaurateur.
Weird place, this town.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 12:53 AM on October 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Why is the Boston Globe covering an Atlanta suburb, anyway? That is strange.
I live near the Dunwoody/Doraville border, in a mostly white neighborhood (at least judging from who I see walking around), and on Halloween lots of Latino children will show up. I respond by giving them candy because it's Halloween and that's what you do when a kid knocks on your door on Halloween. I suspect some of my neighbors don't.
posted by madcaptenor at 6:18 AM on October 30, 2016
I live near the Dunwoody/Doraville border, in a mostly white neighborhood (at least judging from who I see walking around), and on Halloween lots of Latino children will show up. I respond by giving them candy because it's Halloween and that's what you do when a kid knocks on your door on Halloween. I suspect some of my neighbors don't.
posted by madcaptenor at 6:18 AM on October 30, 2016
How skewed is my perspective from Orange County, CA that $250k sounds like a bargain? It was recently reported that a person needs to earn $62,000 in OC to qualify to rent a STUDIO apt. Totally unsustainable long term.
posted by cecic at 4:26 PM on October 30, 2016
posted by cecic at 4:26 PM on October 30, 2016
The Gaslighting of the Millennial Generation
posted by jeffburdges at 5:33 PM on October 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 5:33 PM on October 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have to say, for the price Tulsa is a goddamned shining city on the hill. Presently living in a place that is less affordable than NYC or the Bay Area in terms of median rent/rent equivalent as a proportion of income, I'm beginning to get really annoyed by the cost of housing. On average, people are paying 40%+ of income for housing now in Miami.
I can only hope that the thousands and thousands of under construction units coming onto the market in the next year or two knock some sense into the landlords in this town.
posted by wierdo at 1:35 AM on November 1, 2016
I can only hope that the thousands and thousands of under construction units coming onto the market in the next year or two knock some sense into the landlords in this town.
posted by wierdo at 1:35 AM on November 1, 2016
Only $2.3M for this charming 2br ranch in Palo Alto!
posted by octothorpe at 4:12 AM on November 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 4:12 AM on November 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
The other problem with real estate rises like this,is the tax impact for people who own property, but are being taxed out because of rising value. Example, my house,even though it's still not rebuilt from the storms this spring, has gone up in value by almost 100k. I couldn't sell it if unwanted to, because my contractor seems to have disappeared with my insurance money, but my property taxes are now a 8,000$ a year. That's a 3k rise in 3 years. If we can ever finish repairs, I will have to sell if the rates go up again.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:45 AM on November 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:45 AM on November 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Only $2.3M for this charming 2br ranch in Palo Alto!
If you want to live next to millionaires, you're going to have to pay millionaire prices.
Also those schools are pretty solid and the anti-suicide patrols at Palo Alto train crossings seem to be working.
posted by GuyZero at 11:05 AM on November 2, 2016
If you want to live next to millionaires, you're going to have to pay millionaire prices.
Also those schools are pretty solid and the anti-suicide patrols at Palo Alto train crossings seem to be working.
posted by GuyZero at 11:05 AM on November 2, 2016
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I know this is blowing up the issue to something altogether larger, but I wonder what happens when only the rich can afford property and average jobs are going to AI and robots as well as cheap overseas labor.
What's the endgame. A culture of widespread poverty?
posted by tunewell at 1:51 PM on October 28, 2016 [5 favorites]