Paid £80 million a second. Never even done a war.
November 2, 2016 4:57 PM Subscribe
The Football Association and the Scottish Football Association are defy a ruling by FIFA banning players from Britain wearing commemorative poppies during the England v. Scotland match on 11th November. The British Prime Minister has called Fifa's decision 'utterly outrageous' while cartoonist David Squires provided a slightly different take on the way football commemorates the dead.
Elsewhere, West Brom and former Wigan Athletic player James McClean has explained in the past why he has refused to wear one.
Nice post!
posted by Artw at 5:03 PM on November 2, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:03 PM on November 2, 2016 [11 favorites]
Weirdly enough, I get Mr. Samora's point. If you are to commemorate the British who died in WW1, why should the Germans not also get armbands for remembrance day? What about a Rwandan team that wants to mourn for the 1994 genocide?
What about an American football player who wants to wear a BLM armband to mourn Sandra Bland?
FIFA's blanket ban is draconian, but there are no good lines on this. Who we as a society choose to mourn, and who we choose to remember, is innately a political decision.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 5:10 PM on November 2, 2016 [18 favorites]
What about an American football player who wants to wear a BLM armband to mourn Sandra Bland?
FIFA's blanket ban is draconian, but there are no good lines on this. Who we as a society choose to mourn, and who we choose to remember, is innately a political decision.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 5:10 PM on November 2, 2016 [18 favorites]
FIFA's blanket ban is draconian, but there are no good lines on this.
Every country gets to declare one day of remembrance, and, when playing a game on that day, players from that country have the option to wear a black arm band, bearing a symbol that the country's club has approved and the opposing team does not object to.
Done. Let the National teams deal with the internal political sorting out.
Yeah, probably no black arm bands for Sandra. Maybe a yellow ribbon for the US team on Memorial Day. A symbol appropriate for Rwanda on April 7.
I'm iffy on the opposing team vetoes but am naively choosing to believe that they could prevent more problems than they cause.
posted by sparklemotion at 5:34 PM on November 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Every country gets to declare one day of remembrance, and, when playing a game on that day, players from that country have the option to wear a black arm band, bearing a symbol that the country's club has approved and the opposing team does not object to.
Done. Let the National teams deal with the internal political sorting out.
Yeah, probably no black arm bands for Sandra. Maybe a yellow ribbon for the US team on Memorial Day. A symbol appropriate for Rwanda on April 7.
I'm iffy on the opposing team vetoes but am naively choosing to believe that they could prevent more problems than they cause.
posted by sparklemotion at 5:34 PM on November 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Poppy thing is a separate discussion, but I'm pretty sure the Conservative Party forfeited any possible right they may have to speak out on issues regarding football and respect for the dead after Hillsborough.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 5:35 PM on November 2, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 5:35 PM on November 2, 2016 [15 favorites]
The UK poppy debate, summarized in two tweets.
posted by effbot at 5:39 PM on November 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by effbot at 5:39 PM on November 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
Poppy thing is a separate discussion, but I'm pretty sure the Conservative Party forfeited any possible right they may have to speak out on issues regarding football and respect for the dead after Hillsborough.
This is perfect for them right now, though: barely disguised brexistic jingoism gets a gift from a superficially innocuous commemorative symbol made verboten by the foreigners. Nationalists love that kind of shit.
posted by Celsius1414 at 5:41 PM on November 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is perfect for them right now, though: barely disguised brexistic jingoism gets a gift from a superficially innocuous commemorative symbol made verboten by the foreigners. Nationalists love that kind of shit.
posted by Celsius1414 at 5:41 PM on November 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
Why do UK poppies only have two petals? That is weird and wrong. Have y'all ever even seen a poppy?
posted by Sys Rq at 5:46 PM on November 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Sys Rq at 5:46 PM on November 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have nothing to say at the moment about the poppy issue but David Squires' recent strip combining Jose Mourinho's present situation of living in a hotel with I'm Alan Partridge was a thing of beauty which all of you need to read right now.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:02 PM on November 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:02 PM on November 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
I had no idea Hank Hill was so concerned about soccer.
posted by maryr at 6:27 PM on November 2, 2016
posted by maryr at 6:27 PM on November 2, 2016
I thought the Brexit vote banned any show of concern for anything that ever happened or will happen on the continent.
posted by ckape at 7:11 PM on November 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ckape at 7:11 PM on November 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Can someone explain this to a U.S. non sports fan who thinks players should get to express their politics on the field?
posted by latkes at 7:51 PM on November 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by latkes at 7:51 PM on November 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
If the team (or the country) is pressuring and/or forcing them to wear the poppy, can the players really be said to be expressing their politics?
posted by Sys Rq at 8:19 PM on November 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Sys Rq at 8:19 PM on November 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
ckape, the Brexit vote was all about showing England's usual level of respect to mainland Europe. Which includes this delightful chant (Two World Wars and One World Cup) about the level of global influence England has had in the last half century.
More plainly, and with less bitter sarcasm, I suspect that the fact that FIFA is enforcing a rule they may previously have turned a blind eye to is a pretty clear indication of how much soft power the UK has lost in the past 6 months.
There's a poppy controversy every year. Normally it's more internally focussed on a celebrity who's perceived to slight Remembrance Day causes by wearing it wrong or not at all, but "FIFA won't let us" has precedent.
posted by ambrosen at 8:50 PM on November 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
More plainly, and with less bitter sarcasm, I suspect that the fact that FIFA is enforcing a rule they may previously have turned a blind eye to is a pretty clear indication of how much soft power the UK has lost in the past 6 months.
There's a poppy controversy every year. Normally it's more internally focussed on a celebrity who's perceived to slight Remembrance Day causes by wearing it wrong or not at all, but "FIFA won't let us" has precedent.
posted by ambrosen at 8:50 PM on November 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
Can someone explain this to a U.S. non sports fan who thinks players should get to express their politics on the field?
latkes, it's pretty simple. FIFA does not think that players should get to express their politics on the field. That's it, that's all of it.
posted by wilful at 10:23 PM on November 2, 2016
latkes, it's pretty simple. FIFA does not think that players should get to express their politics on the field. That's it, that's all of it.
posted by wilful at 10:23 PM on November 2, 2016
a thing of beauty
I would have put 'football cartoons' squarely in my personal 'meh' category, but David Squires is brilliant.
posted by Segundus at 12:30 AM on November 3, 2016
I would have put 'football cartoons' squarely in my personal 'meh' category, but David Squires is brilliant.
posted by Segundus at 12:30 AM on November 3, 2016
I think the Tottenham fan that's got a sound bite on BBC News had the best perspective: If it's truly an act of remembrance, the FA shouldn't be against finding another way of celebrating.
The FA is just using this as another attack in their long war against FIFA.
posted by clorox at 12:32 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
The FA is just using this as another attack in their long war against FIFA.
posted by clorox at 12:32 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
great post stanf
posted by james33 at 2:31 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by james33 at 2:31 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Can someone explain this to a U.S. non sports fan who thinks players should get to express their politics on the field?
There is no end to the problems this would cause. Imagine the theoretical day when the Saudi team play the US and one of the Saudi players decides to wear an armband or special top design commemorating the brave heroes who tragically lost their lives flying jumbo jets into the world trade centre. Or hell, maybe the whole team does. Maybe there's a minute's silence to remember them after the anthem.
Yes this example is extreme and inflammatory, but you can bet that situations that are as controversial in the countries involved would be inevitable, even if the above is far-fetched.
posted by Dysk at 3:51 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
There is no end to the problems this would cause. Imagine the theoretical day when the Saudi team play the US and one of the Saudi players decides to wear an armband or special top design commemorating the brave heroes who tragically lost their lives flying jumbo jets into the world trade centre. Or hell, maybe the whole team does. Maybe there's a minute's silence to remember them after the anthem.
Yes this example is extreme and inflammatory, but you can bet that situations that are as controversial in the countries involved would be inevitable, even if the above is far-fetched.
posted by Dysk at 3:51 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, the FA are being boorish berks about this, but that is completely in line with modern British media-approved views with regard to the whole poppy nonsense anyway.
Just think of the waste involved in the whole malarkey, for one thing. Tens of millions of cheap plastic poppies, every year, because there's no way whatsoever anyone could remember anything without performative chintzy consumerist crap.
posted by Dysk at 3:55 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Just think of the waste involved in the whole malarkey, for one thing. Tens of millions of cheap plastic poppies, every year, because there's no way whatsoever anyone could remember anything without performative chintzy consumerist crap.
posted by Dysk at 3:55 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Saudi/911 example seems pretty unlikely but a Serbia v Croatia game would likely have enough needle without someone wanting to commemorate their brave soldiers. There are plenty of teams where recent history would be an issue leading to potential conflict in the stadium, and possibly also away from the game.
posted by biffa at 4:25 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by biffa at 4:25 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
This morning on Radio4 they were interviewing someone (I think he used to be head of the FA?) who was Very Indignant about the whole thing and he said it would be worth the possible punishment of losing points if only to prevent "the stress" that could be caused to "hundreds of thousands of people" because the football players are not wearing a poppy on the field.
Hundreds of thousands of people stressed out because some guys running around a field aren't wearing a poppy?
It made me even more upset that this was in the same half hour they covered the appalling lack of security and support in the country's prisons.
People have become insane over Nationalism and misguided in what they think respect actually means.
posted by like_neon at 4:25 AM on November 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
Hundreds of thousands of people stressed out because some guys running around a field aren't wearing a poppy?
It made me even more upset that this was in the same half hour they covered the appalling lack of security and support in the country's prisons.
People have become insane over Nationalism and misguided in what they think respect actually means.
posted by like_neon at 4:25 AM on November 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
Dysk makes a key point above regarding how contentious "politics" can be in sports. I think the fact that soccer competitions are trans-national while much popular US sport is domestically focused (with a couple of Canadian teams) makes it easier for US sports to agree a common set of standards/culture of what is acceptable (although of course the US has it's own controversies even without the international aspect).
One of the interesting things for me is the malleability of people's positions depending upon the "politics" in question. In Scotland there was a lot of controversy regarding some Celtic fans choosing to wave the Palestinian flag at a European game. The same commentators/newspapers who decried this "political" act, are by-and large all for including the poppy in match days.
I am meh about the FA's wanting to include the poppy in their upcoming game (I can see both sides, most people in the UK believe that it is non-contentious act of remembrance , others believe it is a bit icky aligning sport with militarism) but Dysk's point on how you "objectively" decide which symbols are okay and which inflammatory or out of order, is key. Say for example that Hungary decide to play with an armband showing a map of "Greater Hungary" including their claims to Slovakia and Transylvania while playing against their neighbours.
This obsession in Britain with comforting symbols (poppies, blue passports etc.) harking back to a past where we felt ourselves to be "Great" are a symptom of our insecurity and myopia. Just because the consensus within our island is that this is "good politics" doesn't mean we can thumb our noses at the international body that governs us all. The same commentators/newspapers stirring this controversy would be the first to cry foul if another country wore something that they considered controversial. Guys, we are no longer THE Empire, we can no longer pretend to be the cultural norm and everyone else a deviation from our common-sense rightness.
posted by Gratishades at 4:28 AM on November 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
One of the interesting things for me is the malleability of people's positions depending upon the "politics" in question. In Scotland there was a lot of controversy regarding some Celtic fans choosing to wave the Palestinian flag at a European game. The same commentators/newspapers who decried this "political" act, are by-and large all for including the poppy in match days.
I am meh about the FA's wanting to include the poppy in their upcoming game (I can see both sides, most people in the UK believe that it is non-contentious act of remembrance , others believe it is a bit icky aligning sport with militarism) but Dysk's point on how you "objectively" decide which symbols are okay and which inflammatory or out of order, is key. Say for example that Hungary decide to play with an armband showing a map of "Greater Hungary" including their claims to Slovakia and Transylvania while playing against their neighbours.
This obsession in Britain with comforting symbols (poppies, blue passports etc.) harking back to a past where we felt ourselves to be "Great" are a symptom of our insecurity and myopia. Just because the consensus within our island is that this is "good politics" doesn't mean we can thumb our noses at the international body that governs us all. The same commentators/newspapers stirring this controversy would be the first to cry foul if another country wore something that they considered controversial. Guys, we are no longer THE Empire, we can no longer pretend to be the cultural norm and everyone else a deviation from our common-sense rightness.
posted by Gratishades at 4:28 AM on November 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
I was walking down the biggest shopping street in Glasgow yesterday and came across a bus-sized "Official Merchandise" stall for the poppies. This year you can also buy poppies made out of shells fired during WW1.
I cannot put my finger on why I find these things so distasteful but the words 'war as entertainment' keep floating around my head.
posted by kariebookish at 5:29 AM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
I cannot put my finger on why I find these things so distasteful but the words 'war as entertainment' keep floating around my head.
posted by kariebookish at 5:29 AM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's like Groundhog Day, we have the same conversation every year, the tabloids have their OUTRAGE that McClean isn't wearing one, the poppy wearing gets earlier and earlier, the solemnity arms race continues ("one minute of silence, no, two minutes"). The facts are:
This is all pretty recent by the way - pre-Iraq/Afghanistan there were no soldiers paraded at football matches or poppies on football shirts or anything like that. My granddad was an Irishman who was a sergeant in the RAF during World War II and was at Dunkirk and then spent most of the war in Africa (which he blamed for his skin cancer later in life) and I think he'd take a dim view of the whole thing if he was around to see it.
posted by kersplunk at 5:44 AM on November 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
- The poppy only commemorates British and Commonwealth/Empire soldiers, not those from other countries.
- It commemorates those involved in all conflicts - not just World Wars I and II, and Iraq/Afghanistan, but decolonisation wars in India, Kenya, Malaysia, Yemen, Ireland etc. in which British troops committed atrocities and war crimes.
- It doesn't commemorate the many civilians who died in wars.
This is all pretty recent by the way - pre-Iraq/Afghanistan there were no soldiers paraded at football matches or poppies on football shirts or anything like that. My granddad was an Irishman who was a sergeant in the RAF during World War II and was at Dunkirk and then spent most of the war in Africa (which he blamed for his skin cancer later in life) and I think he'd take a dim view of the whole thing if he was around to see it.
posted by kersplunk at 5:44 AM on November 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
I was walking down the biggest shopping street in Glasgow yesterday and came across a bus-sized "Official Merchandise" stall for the poppies. This year you can also buy poppies made out of shells fired during WW1.
Have you seen the pictures of military jets in poppy remembrance livery? The whole thing is distasteful at best.
posted by Dysk at 5:46 AM on November 3, 2016
Have you seen the pictures of military jets in poppy remembrance livery? The whole thing is distasteful at best.
posted by Dysk at 5:46 AM on November 3, 2016
This is all pretty recent by the way - pre-Iraq/Afghanistan there were no soldiers paraded at football matches or poppies on football shirts or anything like that.
I agree with this. I resent how my childhood memories of poppy collections as a humanitarian gesture have been tainted by the creeping poppy nationalism from the 9-11/Iraq invasion era onwards. It's changed from something that was relatively inclusive and humane to something rather more jingoistic.
posted by plep at 5:50 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I agree with this. I resent how my childhood memories of poppy collections as a humanitarian gesture have been tainted by the creeping poppy nationalism from the 9-11/Iraq invasion era onwards. It's changed from something that was relatively inclusive and humane to something rather more jingoistic.
posted by plep at 5:50 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
In Canada, the poppies commemorate all the dead of war - soldier, civilian, regardless of "side". Their sale supports the Canadian Legion, which helps veterans and their families. But the symbolism (which is fluid) here is about remembrance, not glorification.
posted by jb at 5:50 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by jb at 5:50 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
In Canada, the poppies commemorate all the dead of war - soldier, civilian, regardless of "side".
I think that this is part of what has got me confused. I grew up knowing the poppy as a symbol of hope for the goodness of humanity. Even though I have a vague notion that poppies have taken on some kind of weird "flag pin" status in the UK, my brain refuses to parse the idea that they could ever be a bad thing.
posted by sparklemotion at 5:56 AM on November 3, 2016
I think that this is part of what has got me confused. I grew up knowing the poppy as a symbol of hope for the goodness of humanity. Even though I have a vague notion that poppies have taken on some kind of weird "flag pin" status in the UK, my brain refuses to parse the idea that they could ever be a bad thing.
posted by sparklemotion at 5:56 AM on November 3, 2016
They have definitely attained 'flag pin' status. Every year there is news about some politician/newsreader/celebrity not wearing a poppy on camera and from the kerfuffle you'd think they were live at Westminster pissing on the grave of the unknown soldier.
posted by like_neon at 6:01 AM on November 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by like_neon at 6:01 AM on November 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
I don't think it's *quite* reached flag pin status if the poppy is only the idol of patriotic faith once a year. In the USA a politician is expected to wear their jingo idol every moment they are in public and failure to do so clearly shows that they are communazi terrorist loving anti-American liberal weenies.
posted by sotonohito at 6:27 AM on November 3, 2016
posted by sotonohito at 6:27 AM on November 3, 2016
Remembrance days have doubled up in the UK over the last 20 years or so, increasing their prominence. Since the aftermath of WW2 Remembrance Sunday, the nearest Sunday to the 11th, has been the main focus of public events. In more recent years, where the 11th doesn’t fall on a Sunday, The Royal British Legion have managed to grow the significance of public events on 11th November. This happened after a big push on the 80th Anniversary of the Armistice in 1998. Prior to that, events on the 11th drew very little attention. So we now have two remarkably similar events occurring within close proximity to each other. Which is great if you like that sort of thing.
posted by Mellon Udrigle at 7:03 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Mellon Udrigle at 7:03 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
a Serbia v Croatia game
Last time England played on 11th November, they didn't wear poppies. It was 1987, against Yugoslavia. And for extra irony, yes, Gary Lineker was on the team.
posted by ambrosen at 7:27 AM on November 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
Last time England played on 11th November, they didn't wear poppies. It was 1987, against Yugoslavia. And for extra irony, yes, Gary Lineker was on the team.
posted by ambrosen at 7:27 AM on November 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
Theresa May: "(wear the poppy) to recognise and respect those who have given their lives for our safety and security"
The powers that be used to say soldiers gave their lives for our freedom. That change in wording is a little frightening.
posted by rocket88 at 8:00 AM on November 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
The powers that be used to say soldiers gave their lives for our freedom. That change in wording is a little frightening.
posted by rocket88 at 8:00 AM on November 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
Huh, this is is so interesting for a USian. Thanks for the explanations. From this vantage, I can see the FIFA position clearly. But I am also in strong favor of American NFL players right to 'take a knee' during the national anthem here. I guess the point about soccer/football being an international sport vs American football being, well, American, is a key difference. As is the poppy specifically being a jingoistic symbol. I do wonder how to make a rule that is "fair" that works in all circumstances.
posted by latkes at 9:22 AM on November 3, 2016
posted by latkes at 9:22 AM on November 3, 2016
Well, they probably noticed that one of the freedoms that were protected was the freedom not to wear a poppy, and for once the cognitive dissonance was too much.
It's worth pointing out that all a poppy actually is is an "I've Donated to the Royal British Legion" badge.
posted by Grangousier at 9:25 AM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's worth pointing out that all a poppy actually is is an "I've Donated to the Royal British Legion" badge.
posted by Grangousier at 9:25 AM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
I was walking down the biggest shopping street in Glasgow yesterday and came across a bus-sized "Official Merchandise" stall for the poppies. This year you can also buy poppies made out of shells fired during WW1.
I cannot put my finger on why I find these things so distasteful but the words 'war as entertainment' keep floating around my head.
Whilst I'll be (and often am) the first in line to criticise the co-opting of Remembrance Day into an act of nationalism by various different organisations (certain newspapers, far right groups and the Tory party spring to mind) you seem to be missing the point on the poppies made from shells.
For context: They're part of the Royal British Legion's Every man remembered campaign aimed at commemorating those lost on the Somme, and making those people seem real again for current generations (for whom they are no longer part of living memory).
So it's not war porn, or gimmickery, or celebration of our brave troops - it's about re-humanising the lost soldiers (many of whom were teenagers or young adults) and hopefully making people remember that war is really shit and yes, really, if you fought in one you may well die.
The poppies (and indeed everything you buy from RBL at the moment) each come with a card naming a random soldier lost, and tell you a bit about them. They also encourage you to go off and find more and then leave a memory or commemoration of some kind on the website above.
I did a little bit of digging into the name that came with mine - Private David Lyell Thomson, for example and discovered that despite being a Scottish kid he ended up fighting and dying with the London regiment. Which made me think more about what it must have been like as a 21 year old kid not only fighting a whole country away, but then being wounded and dying away from the friends you signed up with.
So yeah - whilst I 100% agree with you about the fetishisation of remembrance. It's really, really important to separate that from the act, and from the need to raise money to help remember, and to assist, those that war has damaged.
Those two things are not generally being perpetrated by the same actors, and the danger is that mentally we forget the importance of the latter because of our distaste for the former.
This current football row is a really good example of fetish vs remembrance. Because it's the ever-bumbling FA trying to ingratiate itself with the gutter media and distract from its own England manager fuckups by bowing to the fetishists.
Poppies aren't the only way to remember. Hold a minute's fucking silence before the game like we do for every other tragedy or remembrance thereof. And yeah, okay, it's the 100th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme. So kick of a social media campaign asking the fans to stand up and applaud at the 7mins 30sec mark if you really want to mark that creatively (the men at the Somme on the first day went "over the top" at about 7:30am).
It really isn't that hard. But then that'd require the FA (and the SFA, who have their own reasons to district from themselves) to be acting in good faith, and it would require the frothing press hordes to be doing the same. Which won't fucking happen.
posted by garius at 10:02 AM on November 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
I cannot put my finger on why I find these things so distasteful but the words 'war as entertainment' keep floating around my head.
Whilst I'll be (and often am) the first in line to criticise the co-opting of Remembrance Day into an act of nationalism by various different organisations (certain newspapers, far right groups and the Tory party spring to mind) you seem to be missing the point on the poppies made from shells.
For context: They're part of the Royal British Legion's Every man remembered campaign aimed at commemorating those lost on the Somme, and making those people seem real again for current generations (for whom they are no longer part of living memory).
So it's not war porn, or gimmickery, or celebration of our brave troops - it's about re-humanising the lost soldiers (many of whom were teenagers or young adults) and hopefully making people remember that war is really shit and yes, really, if you fought in one you may well die.
The poppies (and indeed everything you buy from RBL at the moment) each come with a card naming a random soldier lost, and tell you a bit about them. They also encourage you to go off and find more and then leave a memory or commemoration of some kind on the website above.
I did a little bit of digging into the name that came with mine - Private David Lyell Thomson, for example and discovered that despite being a Scottish kid he ended up fighting and dying with the London regiment. Which made me think more about what it must have been like as a 21 year old kid not only fighting a whole country away, but then being wounded and dying away from the friends you signed up with.
So yeah - whilst I 100% agree with you about the fetishisation of remembrance. It's really, really important to separate that from the act, and from the need to raise money to help remember, and to assist, those that war has damaged.
Those two things are not generally being perpetrated by the same actors, and the danger is that mentally we forget the importance of the latter because of our distaste for the former.
This current football row is a really good example of fetish vs remembrance. Because it's the ever-bumbling FA trying to ingratiate itself with the gutter media and distract from its own England manager fuckups by bowing to the fetishists.
Poppies aren't the only way to remember. Hold a minute's fucking silence before the game like we do for every other tragedy or remembrance thereof. And yeah, okay, it's the 100th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme. So kick of a social media campaign asking the fans to stand up and applaud at the 7mins 30sec mark if you really want to mark that creatively (the men at the Somme on the first day went "over the top" at about 7:30am).
It really isn't that hard. But then that'd require the FA (and the SFA, who have their own reasons to district from themselves) to be acting in good faith, and it would require the frothing press hordes to be doing the same. Which won't fucking happen.
posted by garius at 10:02 AM on November 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
It's really, really important to separate that from the act, and from the need to raise money to help remember, and to assist, those that war has damaged.
Except that's not what the whole poppy thing is about. There are countless civilian casualties, people who died or were damaged by war, who are entirely outside the scope of this.
posted by Dysk at 10:11 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Except that's not what the whole poppy thing is about. There are countless civilian casualties, people who died or were damaged by war, who are entirely outside the scope of this.
posted by Dysk at 10:11 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm not keen on the Poppy and haven't bought one, worn one, or donated to RBL for years. I'm not keen on FIFA either, so they can have each other. My thoughts are that the ban on wearing a Poppy is disrespectful to those people for whom it is a cultural norm. There are many England and Scotland players (and fans) for whom not wearing a Poppy on that day is unthinkable. I'm sure they have other cultural exemptions, so they should simply add this to the list.
The powers that be used to say soldiers gave their lives for our freedom. That change in wording is a little frightening.
Well, they used to say "For King and Empire", make of it what you will.
posted by Emma May Smith at 10:48 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
The powers that be used to say soldiers gave their lives for our freedom. That change in wording is a little frightening.
Well, they used to say "For King and Empire", make of it what you will.
posted by Emma May Smith at 10:48 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm a baseball card collector, and one of the things that's boggled my mind is the way Major League Baseball's teams have started wearing military-camouflaged caps and, in some cases, entire jerseys on Memorial Day (since the US doesn't observe November 11th). I pull a card whose photograph shows a Yankee or a Cub or (incongruously) an Angel dressed like that and the cognitive dissonance is high.
I'm not sure if it's because baseball is an inherently conservative hobby and the trend is new, or if it's because I'm Canadian--Toronto is the sole team not to go along with the trend, though probably only because we do have Remembrance Day--but really, it strikes me as a sign of the growing hagiography of the military since the turn of the century.
posted by Quindar Beep at 11:14 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure if it's because baseball is an inherently conservative hobby and the trend is new, or if it's because I'm Canadian--Toronto is the sole team not to go along with the trend, though probably only because we do have Remembrance Day--but really, it strikes me as a sign of the growing hagiography of the military since the turn of the century.
posted by Quindar Beep at 11:14 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
entire jerseys on Memorial Day (since the US doesn't observe November 11th).
Minor quibble. Memorial Day in the US is the day for remembering fallen veterans. On November 11th, the US has Veterans Day, which is the day for honouring vets both alive and departed.
That the US doesn't have a holiday focused on remembering civilian casualties has more than a little, I think, to do with the fact that the US hasn't had to deal with civilian casualties on the homefront as major ongoing effects of war* since the civil war).
*Yes, Pearl Harbor, and yes September 11th. Of the many arguments regarding how they are different than Flanders or the Blitz I'll just stick with the one about how the US wasn't actually involved in a war when those happened.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:45 AM on November 3, 2016
Minor quibble. Memorial Day in the US is the day for remembering fallen veterans. On November 11th, the US has Veterans Day, which is the day for honouring vets both alive and departed.
That the US doesn't have a holiday focused on remembering civilian casualties has more than a little, I think, to do with the fact that the US hasn't had to deal with civilian casualties on the homefront as major ongoing effects of war* since the civil war).
*Yes, Pearl Harbor, and yes September 11th. Of the many arguments regarding how they are different than Flanders or the Blitz I'll just stick with the one about how the US wasn't actually involved in a war when those happened.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:45 AM on November 3, 2016
Sorry Dysk, but you have to have a very narrow definition of the work of the Legion to claim that they don't support those damaged and affected by war.
They're a charity whose remit, since 1921 has been to care for veterans and veterans families. Fom physical and mental health to welfare and social support. Do they make a big thing of the poppy? Well yes, obviously - because the lack of adequate support for returning troops after WW1 is the entire reason they exist.
I completely agree with you that they don't cover areas such as civilian casualties or working in war-torn countries, but then they'd agree with you too. You're absolutely right that's out of their scope - and they'd agree.
There are plenty of other charities for whom that is within scope. Just sticking within the football context there are plenty of ways that football clubs get involved. It's been great seeing how Football Manager (the multi-million selling football management sim) has heavily pushed War Child within game over recent years, for example. Meanwhile QPR were offering buses to help move child refugees from Calais whilst Arsenal have partnered with Save the Children to build football facilities for children in Iraq (here's Arsenal Ladies captain Alex Scott over there).
I guess what I'm saying is that the Legion fills a role, but not a complete one, when it comes to helping the victims of war. Which is why it needs support. But it absolutely doesn't represent the entirely of the charitable action required in that area - but it wouldn't claim to.
Which, again, is why the fetishisation of the poppy is dangerous. Because a side-effect of the disingenuous drive of various parties to put it in the same category as blue passports and Union-Jack-waving is that it removes all nuance from the very serious need to remember the damage that war does to everyone it affects.
So, again, returning to the football - have a minute's silence for all victims of war and (purely because it's the 100th anniversary) maybe a marker at a certain minute for the Somme.
Then, if footballers want to do something specific for the Legion - and I know many would be happy to do so - then they can record an advert or two reading out the stories and names of those who died on the Somme in support of the Every Life Matters campaign.
Job done. No need for anyone to get upset and/or get their feathers puffed up.
posted by garius at 11:48 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
They're a charity whose remit, since 1921 has been to care for veterans and veterans families. Fom physical and mental health to welfare and social support. Do they make a big thing of the poppy? Well yes, obviously - because the lack of adequate support for returning troops after WW1 is the entire reason they exist.
I completely agree with you that they don't cover areas such as civilian casualties or working in war-torn countries, but then they'd agree with you too. You're absolutely right that's out of their scope - and they'd agree.
There are plenty of other charities for whom that is within scope. Just sticking within the football context there are plenty of ways that football clubs get involved. It's been great seeing how Football Manager (the multi-million selling football management sim) has heavily pushed War Child within game over recent years, for example. Meanwhile QPR were offering buses to help move child refugees from Calais whilst Arsenal have partnered with Save the Children to build football facilities for children in Iraq (here's Arsenal Ladies captain Alex Scott over there).
I guess what I'm saying is that the Legion fills a role, but not a complete one, when it comes to helping the victims of war. Which is why it needs support. But it absolutely doesn't represent the entirely of the charitable action required in that area - but it wouldn't claim to.
Which, again, is why the fetishisation of the poppy is dangerous. Because a side-effect of the disingenuous drive of various parties to put it in the same category as blue passports and Union-Jack-waving is that it removes all nuance from the very serious need to remember the damage that war does to everyone it affects.
So, again, returning to the football - have a minute's silence for all victims of war and (purely because it's the 100th anniversary) maybe a marker at a certain minute for the Somme.
Then, if footballers want to do something specific for the Legion - and I know many would be happy to do so - then they can record an advert or two reading out the stories and names of those who died on the Somme in support of the Every Life Matters campaign.
Job done. No need for anyone to get upset and/or get their feathers puffed up.
posted by garius at 11:48 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
My thoughts are that the ban on wearing a Poppy is disrespectful to those people for whom it is a cultural norm. There are many England and Scotland players (and fans) for whom not wearing a Poppy on that day is unthinkable. I'm sure they have other cultural exemptions, so they should simply add this to the list.
Would you feel the same in relation to a Rangers v Celtic match held on 12 July? Plenty of things are cultural norms while still being problematic political speech.
posted by howfar at 11:50 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Would you feel the same in relation to a Rangers v Celtic match held on 12 July? Plenty of things are cultural norms while still being problematic political speech.
posted by howfar at 11:50 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Would you feel the same in relation to a Rangers v Celtic match held on 12 July? Plenty of things are cultural norms while still being problematic political speech.
My opinion is the same as FIFA's: cultural practices can be exempt or rules changed to make room for them. Wearing the Poppy is a cultural practice so should be accommodated. We can sit in judgement on other cultures all we want, but in the end we have to accept that a global sport brings with it cultural diversity. None of us want football to be a monoculture, so there should be room for individual cultures where they don't affect the game.
posted by Emma May Smith at 11:57 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
My opinion is the same as FIFA's: cultural practices can be exempt or rules changed to make room for them. Wearing the Poppy is a cultural practice so should be accommodated. We can sit in judgement on other cultures all we want, but in the end we have to accept that a global sport brings with it cultural diversity. None of us want football to be a monoculture, so there should be room for individual cultures where they don't affect the game.
posted by Emma May Smith at 11:57 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sorry Dysk, but you have to have a very narrow definition of the work of the Legion to claim that they don't support those damaged and affected by war.
They support some of those damaged and affected by war. To leave out the minor detail that they are actually an organisation for veterans rather than an organisation for all those damaged and affected by war rather misrepresents what they are and what they do.
posted by Dysk at 7:50 PM on November 3, 2016
They support some of those damaged and affected by war. To leave out the minor detail that they are actually an organisation for veterans rather than an organisation for all those damaged and affected by war rather misrepresents what they are and what they do.
posted by Dysk at 7:50 PM on November 3, 2016
So, again, returning to the football - have a minute's silence for all victims of war and (purely because it's the 100th anniversary) maybe a marker at a certain minute for the Somme.
Then, if footballers want to do something specific for the Legion - and I know many would be happy to do so - then they can record an advert or two reading out the stories and names of those who died on the Somme in support of the Every Life Matters campaign.
This is a fantastic solution, and would be exactly what the FA would be suggesting if they had any sense and this were about remembrance rather than rah-rah militaristic nationalism.
posted by Dysk at 7:53 PM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Then, if footballers want to do something specific for the Legion - and I know many would be happy to do so - then they can record an advert or two reading out the stories and names of those who died on the Somme in support of the Every Life Matters campaign.
This is a fantastic solution, and would be exactly what the FA would be suggesting if they had any sense and this were about remembrance rather than rah-rah militaristic nationalism.
posted by Dysk at 7:53 PM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Useful summary of the evolution of the UK's "poppy war".
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:34 AM on November 4, 2016
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:34 AM on November 4, 2016
Part of the UK's long history of wars over poppies.
posted by ckape at 10:39 AM on November 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ckape at 10:39 AM on November 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
FIFA are to take disciplinary action against Qatar for using slaves to build World Cup stadiums.
Nah, just kidding, they're taking disciplinary action against England and Scotland for wearing poppy armbands.
posted by Emma May Smith at 9:51 AM on November 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nah, just kidding, they're taking disciplinary action against England and Scotland for wearing poppy armbands.
posted by Emma May Smith at 9:51 AM on November 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
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