Too many cooks
November 3, 2016 7:00 AM Subscribe
Why we are suing Christopher Kimball Previously on the Blue, America's Test Kitchen's bow-tied overlord Christopher Kimball leaves America's Test Kitchen for milkier pastures. Seems now that all is about to curdle.
The Washington Post gives us Six take-aways from America’s Test Kitchen’s lawsuit against Christopher Kimball while the Boston Globe takes a slightly less heated approach.
The Washington Post gives us Six take-aways from America’s Test Kitchen’s lawsuit against Christopher Kimball while the Boston Globe takes a slightly less heated approach.
He poached our employees
I mean, I can't be the only one who pictured something different. Too much hollandaise on the brain...
posted by miles per flower at 7:09 AM on November 3, 2016 [56 favorites]
I mean, I can't be the only one who pictured something different. Too much hollandaise on the brain...
posted by miles per flower at 7:09 AM on November 3, 2016 [56 favorites]
That's not the only suit he faces. He calls his new concern Milk Street Kitchen because it's on Milk Street in Boston. Milk Street Cafe, which was there first, was not amused.
posted by adamg at 7:15 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by adamg at 7:15 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Too much hollandaise on the brain...
Plenty of eggheads in a kitchen based on repeated testing, I'm sure.
posted by solarion at 7:15 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Plenty of eggheads in a kitchen based on repeated testing, I'm sure.
posted by solarion at 7:15 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I mean, I can't be the only one who pictured something different. Too much hollandaise on the brain...
He poached our employees, fricasseed our vendors, and parboiled our underwriters!
posted by TedW at 7:16 AM on November 3, 2016 [17 favorites]
He poached our employees, fricasseed our vendors, and parboiled our underwriters!
posted by TedW at 7:16 AM on November 3, 2016 [17 favorites]
Constant Reader, the link to the Boston Globe doesn't work. Contact the mods for some help with that.
I started reading Cook's Illustrated something like 20 years ago. My personal collection of go-to recipe's is at least 90% from them. So I have huge respect and love for what Kimball built, and for the man himself.
And some of what the lawsuit alleges is the usual crap. "Poaching employees" is always tossed into these suits, as it covers everything from casual coversation to offering gobs of money. But taking email lists, contracting with new vendors while using ATK email accounts, and harvesting ATK contact lists are well beyond the pale, if true. And doubly horrifying that he did all this while still a partner in ATK!
I do so hate learning about those feet of clay.
posted by Frayed Knot at 7:16 AM on November 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
I started reading Cook's Illustrated something like 20 years ago. My personal collection of go-to recipe's is at least 90% from them. So I have huge respect and love for what Kimball built, and for the man himself.
And some of what the lawsuit alleges is the usual crap. "Poaching employees" is always tossed into these suits, as it covers everything from casual coversation to offering gobs of money. But taking email lists, contracting with new vendors while using ATK email accounts, and harvesting ATK contact lists are well beyond the pale, if true. And doubly horrifying that he did all this while still a partner in ATK!
I do so hate learning about those feet of clay.
posted by Frayed Knot at 7:16 AM on November 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
I bought The Best Recipe more than 10 years ago and there are several recipes in there that are, literally, The Best Recipe. Then I bought a couple more of their books and they were 95% recycled recipes from The Best Recipe. That's about the time I started wondering if Christopher Kimball was kind of a shyster.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:17 AM on November 3, 2016
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:17 AM on November 3, 2016
The guy wears suspenders and a bow tie. I'd be very surprised if he didn't have a chest freezer full of the dismembered bodies of wayward cats.
posted by selfnoise at 7:20 AM on November 3, 2016 [31 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 7:20 AM on November 3, 2016 [31 favorites]
Then I bought a couple more of their books and they were 95% recycled recipes from The Best Recipe. That's about the time I started wondering if Christopher Kimball was kind of a shyster.
I let their magazine subscription lapse in favor of joining the website, which is more convenient on a number of levels. But the constant offers to join their other websites (as well as multiple magazines) made me conclude that there is a good bit of scamming going on there as well.
And Milk Street is a dumb name.
posted by TedW at 7:21 AM on November 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
I let their magazine subscription lapse in favor of joining the website, which is more convenient on a number of levels. But the constant offers to join their other websites (as well as multiple magazines) made me conclude that there is a good bit of scamming going on there as well.
And Milk Street is a dumb name.
posted by TedW at 7:21 AM on November 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Things won’t work in America’s Test Kitchen once I’m gone, children. Not without my floured hands at the wheel. Mandolines won’t slice. Knives will separate at the seam and clatter to the floor. Biscuits won’t rise. Dough won’t proof. Hens won’t lay. Roosters won’t crow. Oven won’t bake. Drawers won’t close. And who’ll pay Old Henry what’s due to him when he comes striding up the walk some fine autumn morning? Your hands aren’t strong enough to hold the tithe.
posted by maxsparber at 7:25 AM on November 3, 2016 [66 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 7:25 AM on November 3, 2016 [66 favorites]
He poached our employees
One of Kimball's problems is that he always uses too much vinegar.
posted by bonehead at 7:25 AM on November 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
One of Kimball's problems is that he always uses too much vinegar.
posted by bonehead at 7:25 AM on November 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
Agree with others that ATK was/is way too aggressive about monetizing.
Chris Kimball seems like not a great person, but it also seems like ATK is more or less his creation, which its current management are trying to prevent Kimball from strangling now that he's been pushed out. So much drama from such bland food!
posted by notyou at 7:28 AM on November 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
Chris Kimball seems like not a great person, but it also seems like ATK is more or less his creation, which its current management are trying to prevent Kimball from strangling now that he's been pushed out. So much drama from such bland food!
posted by notyou at 7:28 AM on November 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
But the constant offers to join their other websites (as well as multiple magazines) made me conclude that there is a good bit of scamming going on there as well.
And that, totally. So spammy.
ATK did give me one running joke that my wife and I love to say. Any time we are searching for a good recipe for whatever, including things like cookies and cocktails, we say "First brine the chicken for 24 hours."
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:29 AM on November 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
And that, totally. So spammy.
ATK did give me one running joke that my wife and I love to say. Any time we are searching for a good recipe for whatever, including things like cookies and cocktails, we say "First brine the chicken for 24 hours."
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:29 AM on November 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
Mod note: Fixed Boston Globe link, carry on.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:30 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:30 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thank you Frayed Knot, mods contacted. Yes, TedW, that's the one.
posted by Constant Reader at 7:30 AM on November 3, 2016
posted by Constant Reader at 7:30 AM on November 3, 2016
Whoever had the idea to have a chef interact with the host (instead of the camera), and then recap the entire event, is a genius.
posted by Brian B. at 7:30 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 7:30 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
TedW: And Milk Street is a dumb name.
But...it's an actual place -- the actual place! "Milk Street in downtown Boston — at 177 Milk Street — is home to our magazine's editorial offices and our cooking school." I used to work at 40 Broad Street and I often walked down Milk Street on my way from the train station.
It's his address -- and it may be one of the few truly authentic things about the ma.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:32 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
But...it's an actual place -- the actual place! "Milk Street in downtown Boston — at 177 Milk Street — is home to our magazine's editorial offices and our cooking school." I used to work at 40 Broad Street and I often walked down Milk Street on my way from the train station.
It's his address -- and it may be one of the few truly authentic things about the ma.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:32 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Something seemed hinky about how Kimball's departure from ATK was announced, and I guess now we know why.
I'd have a lot more sympathy for the dude if, after he realized that ATK wasn't going to work out (for whatever reason), he severed his ties and actually went about building something from scratch.
I mean, yeah, there is a good chance that a lot of what he "stole" were things that he originally contributed to ATK (who was sourcing out those great employees to hire?* who started those relationships with the vendors, etc.), so I can understand him feeling like he had the right to take them with him. But staying an owner in a company while building a competitor? And building that competitor in a way that kneecaps your original company? That's shady as hell, even if some of the allegations turn out to be exaggerated.
*the notion of "poaching" employees being a bad thing gets my not-usually-labor-movement-aligned back up. If the employees are at-will, they have the right to go where they want. If Kimball was offering them a better deal, it was totally within their rights to take it, and ATK should have stepped up if it wanted to keep them.
posted by sparklemotion at 7:36 AM on November 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
I'd have a lot more sympathy for the dude if, after he realized that ATK wasn't going to work out (for whatever reason), he severed his ties and actually went about building something from scratch.
I mean, yeah, there is a good chance that a lot of what he "stole" were things that he originally contributed to ATK (who was sourcing out those great employees to hire?* who started those relationships with the vendors, etc.), so I can understand him feeling like he had the right to take them with him. But staying an owner in a company while building a competitor? And building that competitor in a way that kneecaps your original company? That's shady as hell, even if some of the allegations turn out to be exaggerated.
*the notion of "poaching" employees being a bad thing gets my not-usually-labor-movement-aligned back up. If the employees are at-will, they have the right to go where they want. If Kimball was offering them a better deal, it was totally within their rights to take it, and ATK should have stepped up if it wanted to keep them.
posted by sparklemotion at 7:36 AM on November 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
it may be one of the few truly authentic things about the man.
Tell me about it; in one of the last "Letters from Vermont" that I saw, he tried to pass this urban legend about deer hunting off as something that happened to one of his neighbors.
posted by TedW at 7:39 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Tell me about it; in one of the last "Letters from Vermont" that I saw, he tried to pass this urban legend about deer hunting off as something that happened to one of his neighbors.
posted by TedW at 7:39 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Clearly their hands aren’t strong enough to hold the tithe.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:40 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 7:40 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
The WashPo article notes "Kimball said Milk Street is inspired by global cuisine that is less reliant on heat and time and more so on spices and levels of flavor". In which case I'm all in. Because bless their New England hearts at ATK, but their recipes are incredibly bland. "1/4 teaspoon of cayenne... optional" does not belong in a recipe for anything.
posted by Nelson at 7:45 AM on November 3, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 7:45 AM on November 3, 2016 [23 favorites]
> If the employees are at-will, they have the right to go where they want.
This is true, but the employees aren't the ones being sued here. They won't suffer any legal consequences for accepting Kimball's offer. The question is whether Kimball had the right to make them a better offer in the first place, which under his contract with ATK he might not have.
I mean, that's not necessarily an ideal situation for the poached employees, either — if somebody wants to make me a good offer to work for them, I'd prefer them to not be legally restrained from doing so.
But on the other hand, by unfairly competing with his former business, Kimball may be hurting the livelihood of any of his former employees that either declined his offer or that didn't get an offer.
posted by a mirror and an encyclopedia at 7:48 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is true, but the employees aren't the ones being sued here. They won't suffer any legal consequences for accepting Kimball's offer. The question is whether Kimball had the right to make them a better offer in the first place, which under his contract with ATK he might not have.
I mean, that's not necessarily an ideal situation for the poached employees, either — if somebody wants to make me a good offer to work for them, I'd prefer them to not be legally restrained from doing so.
But on the other hand, by unfairly competing with his former business, Kimball may be hurting the livelihood of any of his former employees that either declined his offer or that didn't get an offer.
posted by a mirror and an encyclopedia at 7:48 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
I could tell he was no good the way he talked to his cohosts. You could see the seething resentment bubbling under their skin as he patronized them.
Yeah, this. I may be being unkind, but every time I've seen news about his leaving ATK or about a lawsuit involving him, my first reaction is to assume it's something a lot worse than business-related complaints.
posted by tocts at 7:49 AM on November 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, this. I may be being unkind, but every time I've seen news about his leaving ATK or about a lawsuit involving him, my first reaction is to assume it's something a lot worse than business-related complaints.
posted by tocts at 7:49 AM on November 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
He always kinda annoyed me on ATK, but I ignored it as just shtick. And I soured on ever buying their stuff after "register for free on our website to get the recipes" turned quickly into "here's an invoice for that magazine you totally didn't actually agree to buy, but we're hoping you won't notice and just pay it."
When I really started to question the guy himself though, was a special he did about Fannie Farmer and Victorian-era cooking. Apparently he owns her old house, and he had a vintage wood burning stove put in. And they made a special showing the cooking process for an elaborate Victorian style dinner party. Which is fascinating. Except what grated on me was he kept talking about the things HE learned from it, when HE did absolutely none of the work. It was one of the other Cooks Illustrated/ATK women who did the actual cooking - which was clearly a TON of work on an old stove like that. So basically he thought the project up, did none of the hard labor or work, just smugly ate all the food, and took all the credit.
I now kinda think that's him in a nutshell. I don't really believe he even cooks that much, just that he thought up a way to get other people to do the work of learning and teaching about cooking, so he could take the credit for their work and sell it to people.
posted by dnash at 7:52 AM on November 3, 2016 [16 favorites]
When I really started to question the guy himself though, was a special he did about Fannie Farmer and Victorian-era cooking. Apparently he owns her old house, and he had a vintage wood burning stove put in. And they made a special showing the cooking process for an elaborate Victorian style dinner party. Which is fascinating. Except what grated on me was he kept talking about the things HE learned from it, when HE did absolutely none of the work. It was one of the other Cooks Illustrated/ATK women who did the actual cooking - which was clearly a TON of work on an old stove like that. So basically he thought the project up, did none of the hard labor or work, just smugly ate all the food, and took all the credit.
I now kinda think that's him in a nutshell. I don't really believe he even cooks that much, just that he thought up a way to get other people to do the work of learning and teaching about cooking, so he could take the credit for their work and sell it to people.
posted by dnash at 7:52 AM on November 3, 2016 [16 favorites]
I mean, yeah, there is a good chance that a lot of what he "stole" were things that he originally contributed to ATK (who was sourcing out those great employees to hire?* who started those relationships with the vendors, etc.), so I can understand him feeling like he had the right to take them with him.
I think the key word there is "contributed". People want to bring things in to projects--but they still want to own them. That's not really how it works. If your company pays you to make a widget, you don't own the widget because you gave the labor to make the widget. What you got in exchange for your time was your wages. If you contribute things--like a great employee or a great idea--as part of your contribution to co-owning the business, what you got in exchange for that stuff was your ownership stake in the business. You could negotiate for those thing to be part of giving up your stake in the company, but you don't just get to take them with you when you go, or they aren't actually contributions to the company anymore.
It's the sort of thing that generally strikes me as incredibly immature. Like giving another kid a toy and then taking it back because you think they're not playing with it as well as you'd play with it. I don't expect kids to have that kind of foresight, but adults should. If there's stuff you want your company to only borrow from you, not keep, you should be spelling that out explicitly. Which isn't that uncommon; companies lease buildings, IP, and even staff from their owners or their owners' other companies all the time.
posted by Sequence at 8:02 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think the key word there is "contributed". People want to bring things in to projects--but they still want to own them. That's not really how it works. If your company pays you to make a widget, you don't own the widget because you gave the labor to make the widget. What you got in exchange for your time was your wages. If you contribute things--like a great employee or a great idea--as part of your contribution to co-owning the business, what you got in exchange for that stuff was your ownership stake in the business. You could negotiate for those thing to be part of giving up your stake in the company, but you don't just get to take them with you when you go, or they aren't actually contributions to the company anymore.
It's the sort of thing that generally strikes me as incredibly immature. Like giving another kid a toy and then taking it back because you think they're not playing with it as well as you'd play with it. I don't expect kids to have that kind of foresight, but adults should. If there's stuff you want your company to only borrow from you, not keep, you should be spelling that out explicitly. Which isn't that uncommon; companies lease buildings, IP, and even staff from their owners or their owners' other companies all the time.
posted by Sequence at 8:02 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I could tell he was no good the way he talked to his cohosts.
Yeah, agreed. The one time I tried watching ATK, he turned me right off to it because it seemed like he was really strict and dictatorial, and I got this sense of "wow, this guy is really tightly wound". It's not really my style of cooking in general (I'm a little closer to the Julia Child style of "eh, no one sees you cooking so if things aren't 100% perfect then who cares"), but it seemed like he was more "if you don't use the right type of vinegar than everything will be ruined forever".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:05 AM on November 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
Yeah, agreed. The one time I tried watching ATK, he turned me right off to it because it seemed like he was really strict and dictatorial, and I got this sense of "wow, this guy is really tightly wound". It's not really my style of cooking in general (I'm a little closer to the Julia Child style of "eh, no one sees you cooking so if things aren't 100% perfect then who cares"), but it seemed like he was more "if you don't use the right type of vinegar than everything will be ruined forever".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:05 AM on November 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'll never forgive Chris Kimball for making Vermont seem douchey.
posted by General Malaise at 8:06 AM on November 3, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by General Malaise at 8:06 AM on November 3, 2016 [13 favorites]
We're only a third of the way through this story and everyone pointing fingers at Christopher Kimball seems way too obvious.
I think sweet Jack Bishop or sardonic Bridget will be revealed as the murderer.
posted by orange ball at 8:07 AM on November 3, 2016 [21 favorites]
I think sweet Jack Bishop or sardonic Bridget will be revealed as the murderer.
posted by orange ball at 8:07 AM on November 3, 2016 [21 favorites]
I think sweet Jack Bishop or sardonic Bridget will be revealed as the murderer.
My money's on Jack. He is one sarcastic mofo in person. Plus, I would ditch my wife in a heartbeat for Bridget Lancaster if I didn't think her crazy Scots husband wouldn't hunt me down like a dog.
posted by briank at 8:11 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
My money's on Jack. He is one sarcastic mofo in person. Plus, I would ditch my wife in a heartbeat for Bridget Lancaster if I didn't think her crazy Scots husband wouldn't hunt me down like a dog.
posted by briank at 8:11 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wow. A lot of Kimball hate here. Never saw a jury this big before.
posted by Splunge at 8:13 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Splunge at 8:13 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
My favorite part of the complaint is Kimball basically opening a help desk ticket to set up a gmail account to hide shit from ATK.
posted by mama casserole at 8:15 AM on November 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
On June 10, 2015, Mr. Kimball emailed Tom Hagopian, an IT consultant for ATK: “I want a private gmail account that is not part of the company servers/systems.”My second favorite part is "His allusion to 'Mission Impossible' betrays his knowledge of surreptitious wrongdoing."
posted by mama casserole at 8:15 AM on November 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
People want to bring things in to projects--but they still want to own them. That's not really how it works.
Oh yeah -- I totally agree. It's more that I can imagine what he's thinking, even though I think he's probably wrong.
I also think that there's a bit of a difference between what might feel like a "just" outcome to all of this, and what the law says (what the settlement agreement will say is a totally different thing to). Not knowing Kimball's side of the story, or any contract details, or the relevant law, and alsoknowing how legal complaints are written to put everything in the best possible light for the complainants, I'm looking at this from a gut "this seems fair" point of view.
So, I give the "I contributed to this thing, it wouldn't exist without me" mindset some weight, even though it probably won't (and shouldn't) hold up in court. And no matter what weight I give that, I can't justify building the new company from the inside of the old company, if those allegations are true.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:15 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh yeah -- I totally agree. It's more that I can imagine what he's thinking, even though I think he's probably wrong.
I also think that there's a bit of a difference between what might feel like a "just" outcome to all of this, and what the law says (what the settlement agreement will say is a totally different thing to). Not knowing Kimball's side of the story, or any contract details, or the relevant law, and alsoknowing how legal complaints are written to put everything in the best possible light for the complainants, I'm looking at this from a gut "this seems fair" point of view.
So, I give the "I contributed to this thing, it wouldn't exist without me" mindset some weight, even though it probably won't (and shouldn't) hold up in court. And no matter what weight I give that, I can't justify building the new company from the inside of the old company, if those allegations are true.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:15 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, my. I just love the emails from his work account that are all, "Starting new company! Copying company property! How can I hide this, IT department?" I mean...at least learn how to open your own Gmail account.
posted by xingcat at 8:17 AM on November 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by xingcat at 8:17 AM on November 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
IMAGINE, no IP.
(Not that I'm any sort of Chris Kimball fan)
posted by humboldt32 at 8:21 AM on November 3, 2016
(Not that I'm any sort of Chris Kimball fan)
posted by humboldt32 at 8:21 AM on November 3, 2016
The idea of Christopher Kimball doing anything with "more spice" is absurd.
posted by Small Dollar at 8:22 AM on November 3, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by Small Dollar at 8:22 AM on November 3, 2016 [22 favorites]
As much as I enjoyed consuming the ATK/CK/etc articles/shows it takes about 6 unnecessary ingredients and ~40 minutes of extra prep work (and mis-en-plase) to make items.
"The special turmeric and saffon brings out the wonderful flavor of the chicken"
If the chicken was flavored correctly to begin with you wouldn't need expensive spices to fix it.
posted by Hasteur at 8:22 AM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
"The special turmeric and saffon brings out the wonderful flavor of the chicken"
If the chicken was flavored correctly to begin with you wouldn't need expensive spices to fix it.
posted by Hasteur at 8:22 AM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
I hope he shows up to court dressed as a strawberry.
posted by ian1977 at 8:23 AM on November 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 8:23 AM on November 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
Ooof. The thing about handing control of the radio show to Kimball's production company? And then Kimball canceling it six months in to have the Milk Street radio show begin immediately afterwards? Leaving ATK to scramble to land a 5-minute segment on NPR's The Splendid Table? They really do need more professional executives.
posted by infinitewindow at 8:27 AM on November 3, 2016
posted by infinitewindow at 8:27 AM on November 3, 2016
The idea of Christopher Kimball doing anything with "more spice" is absurd.
Calling a "spice and flavor-forward" magazine Milk Street should tell you all you need to know.
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:27 AM on November 3, 2016 [26 favorites]
Calling a "spice and flavor-forward" magazine Milk Street should tell you all you need to know.
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:27 AM on November 3, 2016 [26 favorites]
The one time I tried watching ATK, he turned me right off to it because it seemed like he was really strict and dictatorial, and I got this sense of "wow, this guy is really tightly wound". It's not really my style of cooking in general (I'm a little closer to the Julia Child style of "eh, no one sees you cooking so if things aren't 100% perfect then who cares"), but it seemed like he was more "if you don't use the right type of vinegar than everything will be ruined forever".
OK, but the ATK schtick is "we tried this umpteen ways and here's the one we think is best."
I actually kind of like that because for complex dishes I would rather not be guessing on all the steps and they take that out.
However, I've never tried to make one of their recipes. My son and I watch ATK along with Martha Stewart because we find it soothing not because we will ever make any of those dishes.
posted by emjaybee at 8:32 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
OK, but the ATK schtick is "we tried this umpteen ways and here's the one we think is best."
I actually kind of like that because for complex dishes I would rather not be guessing on all the steps and they take that out.
However, I've never tried to make one of their recipes. My son and I watch ATK along with Martha Stewart because we find it soothing not because we will ever make any of those dishes.
posted by emjaybee at 8:32 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Milk Street is a really stupid name for a magazine focused on global cuisine, regardless of whether it's the address of the company's headquarters.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:48 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:48 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
In a special hell, Kimball will tour global cuisine with Anthony Bourdain, as his taster.
posted by benzenedream at 9:09 AM on November 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 9:09 AM on November 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
Apparently kimball is a big Deadhead. He should have called his magazine Shakedown Street.
posted by ian1977 at 9:10 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 9:10 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Of course, if the lawsuit doesn't go his way he can always fall back on his gig playing Grateful Dead covers. I would say he is the most straitlaced deadhead ever, but there is a surgeon I work with that fits that description as well.
posted by TedW at 9:10 AM on November 3, 2016
posted by TedW at 9:10 AM on November 3, 2016
Yeah, and their signature dish, the milk steak over-hard, comes with a paucity of jelly beans.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:11 AM on November 3, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:11 AM on November 3, 2016 [14 favorites]
In a perfect world, Anthony and Christopher would have a dual Hell were they take turns cooking and eating one another.
posted by ian1977 at 9:14 AM on November 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 9:14 AM on November 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
In a special hell, Kimball will tour global cuisine with Anthony Bourdain, as his taster.
They could have Guy Fieri drive them around in his Camaro!
posted by TedW at 9:19 AM on November 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
They could have Guy Fieri drive them around in his Camaro!
posted by TedW at 9:19 AM on November 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
And it would be Guy's palate that they'd have to cater to for he would be judge.
This Kimball ala King is the bomb but it needs more Donkey Sauce!
posted by ian1977 at 9:28 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
This Kimball ala King is the bomb but it needs more Donkey Sauce!
posted by ian1977 at 9:28 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
"'Since its inception, ATK has written about recipes and techniques from around the world, especially in Cook’s Illustrated,' the suit says.'"
I've been a CI subscriber for more than 20 years, and that statement is...not accurate in my opinion. They choose what recipes they will develop by polling readers with potential concepts. It's been interesting to watch them very slowly branch out, following their audience, for the last two decades, but as someone who has been a long-term vegetarian and lover of cuisines well-adapted to vegetarianism, I have continued subscribing in spite of feeling consistently underserved. I've subscribed to _Milk Street_ and I'm interested to see how it might be different.
posted by jocelmeow at 9:29 AM on November 3, 2016
I've been a CI subscriber for more than 20 years, and that statement is...not accurate in my opinion. They choose what recipes they will develop by polling readers with potential concepts. It's been interesting to watch them very slowly branch out, following their audience, for the last two decades, but as someone who has been a long-term vegetarian and lover of cuisines well-adapted to vegetarianism, I have continued subscribing in spite of feeling consistently underserved. I've subscribed to _Milk Street_ and I'm interested to see how it might be different.
posted by jocelmeow at 9:29 AM on November 3, 2016
Yeah. I actually really like Cook's Illustrated -- I need a recipe for mashed potatoes? I'll take my pick of the more than half-dozen recipes available through America's Test Kitchen, and one of them will certainly be quite tasty. Same goes for other simple recipes, like their mashed sweet potatoes. I also really like that their slow cooker recipes don't rely heavily on "cream of this" and "boxed mix that".
But there's a reason I went elsewhere when I needed a recipe for Lamb Curry.
posted by PearlRose at 9:52 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
But there's a reason I went elsewhere when I needed a recipe for Lamb Curry.
posted by PearlRose at 9:52 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
OK, but the ATK schtick is "we tried this umpteen ways and here's the one we think is best."
No, I get that. But there's still a difference between "here's the method we think works best" and "here's the method that is best, we have proven it with science and if you don't do it this way people will shun you".
The magazine has more of the former tone - Chris Kimball has the latter.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:53 AM on November 3, 2016 [13 favorites]
No, I get that. But there's still a difference between "here's the method we think works best" and "here's the method that is best, we have proven it with science and if you don't do it this way people will shun you".
The magazine has more of the former tone - Chris Kimball has the latter.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:53 AM on November 3, 2016 [13 favorites]
From the Globe piece:
(There's a Cook's Country tasting lab where Kimball is angsting and makes a tentative statement about which sample he likes, and Bishop says something noncommittal, and Kimball says that for twenty years he's been looking into Jack Bishop's eyes for any solace, any hint of human kindness. Bishop replies, "Yeah, keep looking, Chris.")
posted by brainwane at 10:47 AM on November 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
In particular, Bishop said the Milk Street magazine bears a striking resemblance to Cook’s Illustrated, right down to its 32-page size.I'm imagining Bishop cornering Kimball for a very special Cook's Country tasting lab, where he has a few magazines set up in a row with their covers masked, and challenges him to look at them and say which one he likes the best, and goes into what the experts and the studio audience liked best and why.
'Seeing the physical magazine was the last straw,' said Bishop, referring to the magazine’s release this fall. 'It feels hauntingly familiar because it is hauntingly familiar.'
(There's a Cook's Country tasting lab where Kimball is angsting and makes a tentative statement about which sample he likes, and Bishop says something noncommittal, and Kimball says that for twenty years he's been looking into Jack Bishop's eyes for any solace, any hint of human kindness. Bishop replies, "Yeah, keep looking, Chris.")
posted by brainwane at 10:47 AM on November 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
Idk what his terms of employment were, but Kimball developing the concept for his new venture and even working on it during company time is just plain sloppy on his side. Makes it a pretty solid case for company.
There's a Texas case (can't remember name) in which a man had come up with concept during his vacation and sought leave of absence to develop it. His employer claimed and legally won rights to 100% of it.
posted by Neekee at 11:38 AM on November 3, 2016
There's a Texas case (can't remember name) in which a man had come up with concept during his vacation and sought leave of absence to develop it. His employer claimed and legally won rights to 100% of it.
posted by Neekee at 11:38 AM on November 3, 2016
From the sadly no-longer-updated blog Tigers & Strawberries, about Cooks Illustrated: The Best Recipe for Culinary Cultural Imperialism
I also support the sense of scientific inquiry that the recipe testers and writers bring to their investigations. As someone who can geek about food science all day and all night, who loves to use her knowledge of chemistry and physics in the kitchen to good effect, I can really get behind the careful analysis that each recipe undergoes before it is published. My nickname is the Culinary Nerd, after all.posted by Lexica at 12:16 PM on November 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
However, the way in which Asian recipes are treated in this magazine never fails to set my teeth on edge.
I just told an old friend about the downfall of the Frugal Gourmet. I really hope she's not into ATK. (She made me swear that if I ever learned anything terrible about Norm Abrams that I just wouldn't tell her.)
And if there's anything anyone should have learned by now: if you're gonna do hinky things, don't put them in email for crying out loud. Go hire some carrier pigeons or something.
The True Secrets of grilled cheese, ridiculously time-intensive but tasty chocolate-chip cookies, and what Mr. e refers to as "artisan french toast" -- these are are my favorite ATK/Cook's Illustrated things.
posted by epersonae at 12:33 PM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
And if there's anything anyone should have learned by now: if you're gonna do hinky things, don't put them in email for crying out loud. Go hire some carrier pigeons or something.
The True Secrets of grilled cheese, ridiculously time-intensive but tasty chocolate-chip cookies, and what Mr. e refers to as "artisan french toast" -- these are are my favorite ATK/Cook's Illustrated things.
posted by epersonae at 12:33 PM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
this february the atk podcast did an episode about chicken wings
christopher kimball, obviously, doesn't like chicken wings but he described how he would eat them if he did
all i can imagine when i think about christopher kimball or when i eat chicken wings is kimball angrily eating his wings and cursing bridget under his breath for making him deign to eat saucefood with his fingers and afterwards rinsing his hands of their filth like pontius pilate at the trial of jesus christ
posted by Tevin at 12:48 PM on November 3, 2016 [19 favorites]
christopher kimball, obviously, doesn't like chicken wings but he described how he would eat them if he did
all i can imagine when i think about christopher kimball or when i eat chicken wings is kimball angrily eating his wings and cursing bridget under his breath for making him deign to eat saucefood with his fingers and afterwards rinsing his hands of their filth like pontius pilate at the trial of jesus christ
posted by Tevin at 12:48 PM on November 3, 2016 [19 favorites]
Ugh, this guy.
I'm from vermont and when I first got into cooking I was all "OOO VERMONT IS IN A FAMOUS MAGAZINE", and I liked Cooks Illustrated but I found his "letter from the editor" intro about Life in Vermont so patronizing and annoying. Like , oh simple bill from over the hill came over because his cow got out of the pasture and la dee dah ~life in a small town~. Blegh.
posted by pintapicasso at 1:19 PM on November 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm from vermont and when I first got into cooking I was all "OOO VERMONT IS IN A FAMOUS MAGAZINE", and I liked Cooks Illustrated but I found his "letter from the editor" intro about Life in Vermont so patronizing and annoying. Like , oh simple bill from over the hill came over because his cow got out of the pasture and la dee dah ~life in a small town~. Blegh.
posted by pintapicasso at 1:19 PM on November 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
I have a love/hate relationship with America's Test Kitchen, but an absolute obsession with ATK radio because of Kimball's interaction with Dan Souza, the guy that did the tasting segment of the radio show.
Dan started every sentence he uttered with Kimball's first name: "OK Chris, what we're going to taste today is canned vegetarian broth, I have three samples here... Chris, what we were looking for in a vegetarian broth is .... Chris, you've tried them all, why don't you tell us what you think... Chris, once again you've shown your rebellious side, you've picked the panel's least favorite broth as your favorite...."
Something about the way Dan said Chris -- in every single episode -- strongly convinced me that Dan hates Chris, and if he were pushed just an oonch further, he would find a way to murder Chris with that mandolin they keep in the corner of the test kitchen (you know, the rusty one).
posted by OrangeDisk at 2:29 PM on November 3, 2016 [21 favorites]
Dan started every sentence he uttered with Kimball's first name: "OK Chris, what we're going to taste today is canned vegetarian broth, I have three samples here... Chris, what we were looking for in a vegetarian broth is .... Chris, you've tried them all, why don't you tell us what you think... Chris, once again you've shown your rebellious side, you've picked the panel's least favorite broth as your favorite...."
Something about the way Dan said Chris -- in every single episode -- strongly convinced me that Dan hates Chris, and if he were pushed just an oonch further, he would find a way to murder Chris with that mandolin they keep in the corner of the test kitchen (you know, the rusty one).
posted by OrangeDisk at 2:29 PM on November 3, 2016 [21 favorites]
Something about the way Dan said Chris -- in every single episode -- strongly convinced me that Dan hates Chris, and if he were pushed just an oonch further, he would find a way to murder Chris with that mandolin they keep in the corner of the test kitchen
I've said this in an ATK thread before, but I felt the same way about how Bridget says the word 'onion.' She pronounces it "ung-yun," which is not an uncommon pronunciation in the south (I think she's from North Carolina?), but it seemed to rankle Chris. Which is why I got so much joy out of watching Bridget cook a recipe for Chris that called for onion, because I swear she found a way to say the word 'onion' much more often than was necessary or even sensical, and she'd give him a quick little side-eye every time she said it to see if he was squirming. Watching Bridget give him the onion torture was the next best thing to being able to poke the haughty, uptight goober in the ribs, with a fork, through the teevee.
posted by mudpuppie at 3:38 PM on November 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
I've said this in an ATK thread before, but I felt the same way about how Bridget says the word 'onion.' She pronounces it "ung-yun," which is not an uncommon pronunciation in the south (I think she's from North Carolina?), but it seemed to rankle Chris. Which is why I got so much joy out of watching Bridget cook a recipe for Chris that called for onion, because I swear she found a way to say the word 'onion' much more often than was necessary or even sensical, and she'd give him a quick little side-eye every time she said it to see if he was squirming. Watching Bridget give him the onion torture was the next best thing to being able to poke the haughty, uptight goober in the ribs, with a fork, through the teevee.
posted by mudpuppie at 3:38 PM on November 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
Sometime in the past I signed up for the ATK wesbsite, for reasons I no longer remember. I just received an email from them with a recipe for the perfect chocolate chip cookie, maybe an hour after reading this thread. They're watching us all.
posted by scalefree at 4:51 PM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by scalefree at 4:51 PM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
I just got the chocolate chip cookie email too!
posted by dnash at 5:56 PM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by dnash at 5:56 PM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
i got home from work today and there was a pile of perfect chocolate chip cookies on my porch, the scent of fresh maple syrup thick in the air
posted by Tevin at 6:07 PM on November 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Tevin at 6:07 PM on November 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yes! I'm learning that Asian recipes are their weakest link. god-awful. I bought the ATK slow cooker e-book which is pretty good but I made an "Asian" chicken soup that had soy sauce, ginger, garlic and a little fish sauce in the broth and it was so bland. Probably the title "Asian chicken noodle soup" should have clued me in.
posted by pintapicasso at 8:03 PM on November 3, 2016
posted by pintapicasso at 8:03 PM on November 3, 2016
*the notion of "poaching" employees being a bad thing gets my not-usually-labor-movement-aligned back up. If the employees are at-will, they have the right to go where they want. If Kimball was offering them a better deal, it was totally within their rights to take it, and ATK should have stepped up if it wanted to keep them.
As described in the complaint, he used his office, during work hours, to hold meetings with employees to lie about what the company was doing and then offer them jobs at a new company he was setting up.
So I agree with you in the abstract about poaching; to the extent I believe ATK this is pretty shameful.
There's a Texas case (can't remember name) in which a man had come up with concept during his vacation and sought leave of absence to develop it. His employer claimed and legally won rights to 100% of it.
I had spent most of my career believing that an employer could claim rights to literally anything related to their business if you thought of it while on a salary. Apparently this depends not just on the employment agreement but on the state--in California if you develop an idea the employer can't assert any rights unless you used company time or equipment.
posted by mark k at 8:38 PM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
As described in the complaint, he used his office, during work hours, to hold meetings with employees to lie about what the company was doing and then offer them jobs at a new company he was setting up.
So I agree with you in the abstract about poaching; to the extent I believe ATK this is pretty shameful.
There's a Texas case (can't remember name) in which a man had come up with concept during his vacation and sought leave of absence to develop it. His employer claimed and legally won rights to 100% of it.
I had spent most of my career believing that an employer could claim rights to literally anything related to their business if you thought of it while on a salary. Apparently this depends not just on the employment agreement but on the state--in California if you develop an idea the employer can't assert any rights unless you used company time or equipment.
posted by mark k at 8:38 PM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes! I'm learning that Asian recipes are their weakest link. god-awful. I bought the ATK slow cooker e-book which is pretty good but I made an "Asian" chicken soup that had soy sauce, ginger, garlic and a little fish sauce in the broth and it was so bland.
I think there's a whitebread intersection here of three things:
1. They don't have a serious Asian presence on their test kitchen staff, or if they do, those cooks aren't given priority on food they know best.
2. Their recipes are generally pretty solid, but are absolutely geared towards mainstream suburban American tastes, so foreign (esp. non-white) cuisine sometimes gets rough treatment.
3. Chris Kimball's precious, precious delicate tastebuds. Dude thinks tomatoes are spicy. And even this he turns into a brag: I'm a supertaster!
Apparently kimball is a big Deadhead. He should have called his magazine Shakedown Street.
I still cannot parse that someone that tight-assed, fastidious, and smug would follow a bunch of stoned hippies around. It'd be like hearing that Mitch McConnell is still pissed off that they kicked Dave Mustaine out of Metallica.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:17 AM on November 4, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think there's a whitebread intersection here of three things:
1. They don't have a serious Asian presence on their test kitchen staff, or if they do, those cooks aren't given priority on food they know best.
2. Their recipes are generally pretty solid, but are absolutely geared towards mainstream suburban American tastes, so foreign (esp. non-white) cuisine sometimes gets rough treatment.
3. Chris Kimball's precious, precious delicate tastebuds. Dude thinks tomatoes are spicy. And even this he turns into a brag: I'm a supertaster!
Apparently kimball is a big Deadhead. He should have called his magazine Shakedown Street.
I still cannot parse that someone that tight-assed, fastidious, and smug would follow a bunch of stoned hippies around. It'd be like hearing that Mitch McConnell is still pissed off that they kicked Dave Mustaine out of Metallica.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:17 AM on November 4, 2016 [7 favorites]
Glad I'm not the only one who's relieved that this is "secret contract shenanigans," rather than "serial groper."
It doesn't take much longer than five minutes with any of his radio or television output to realise that he's a raging persnickety asshole, but I'm OK buying from raging persnickety assholes.
posted by Kreiger at 8:28 AM on November 4, 2016
It doesn't take much longer than five minutes with any of his radio or television output to realise that he's a raging persnickety asshole, but I'm OK buying from raging persnickety assholes.
posted by Kreiger at 8:28 AM on November 4, 2016
ATK and CI fanfic, for those of you who partake.
My real Kimball complaint is that when I interviewed him 13 years ago (an interview in which he said "I'm incorrigible. Hopefully incorruptible."), he was dismissive of vegetarians. In contrast, when I interviewed Alton Brown for the same article, and reminded him of a previous interview where he'd said something negative about vegetarianism as a trend, he was way more thoughtful and reflective, and demonstrated that he was changing his mind.
posted by brainwane at 9:53 AM on November 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
My real Kimball complaint is that when I interviewed him 13 years ago (an interview in which he said "I'm incorrigible. Hopefully incorruptible."), he was dismissive of vegetarians. In contrast, when I interviewed Alton Brown for the same article, and reminded him of a previous interview where he'd said something negative about vegetarianism as a trend, he was way more thoughtful and reflective, and demonstrated that he was changing his mind.
posted by brainwane at 9:53 AM on November 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Glad I'm not the only one who's relieved that this is "secret contract shenanigans," rather than "serial groper."
Well, it's not assault, but dude did have an affair with a staffer under him, then divorced his wife so he could marry her.
I mean, he divorced his wife and then, completely unrelated to that, a staff member was all SUBSEQUENTLY like whaaaaat, I have sudden, out of nowhere feelings for my boss, is this appropriate, oh, heck, let's get married and put an engagement announcement in the New York Times
posted by middleclasstool at 11:03 AM on November 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, it's not assault, but dude did have an affair with a staffer under him, then divorced his wife so he could marry her.
I mean, he divorced his wife and then, completely unrelated to that, a staff member was all SUBSEQUENTLY like whaaaaat, I have sudden, out of nowhere feelings for my boss, is this appropriate, oh, heck, let's get married and put an engagement announcement in the New York Times
posted by middleclasstool at 11:03 AM on November 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
middleclasstool, yeah you right! Tomatoes were thought to be dangerous and poisonous by white Europeans before/after they were imported from the New World.
posted by DJZouke at 11:38 AM on November 4, 2016
posted by DJZouke at 11:38 AM on November 4, 2016
I don't understand what's going on with ATK Radio podcasts. Are these also recorded a year in advance? The last one was released on 10/28.
posted by bluejayway at 12:09 PM on November 4, 2016
posted by bluejayway at 12:09 PM on November 4, 2016
I was wondering that too, bluejayway. Tried to find anything about it online, and...nothing.
posted by General Malaise at 12:13 PM on November 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by General Malaise at 12:13 PM on November 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wow. A lot of Kimball hate here. Never saw a jury this big before.
If you have never observed mefites hating on Chris Kimball, then you must be new here. His name is smack dab in the middle of the Metafilter Bingo Card, flanked on either side by Orson Scot Card and Malcolm Gladwell.
posted by seasparrow at 10:04 PM on November 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you have never observed mefites hating on Chris Kimball, then you must be new here. His name is smack dab in the middle of the Metafilter Bingo Card, flanked on either side by Orson Scot Card and Malcolm Gladwell.
posted by seasparrow at 10:04 PM on November 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
I remember watching an episode of ATK where their testers decided the best corn chip to use for a recipe was some bland Doritos thing, because it was the best-tasting one they found.
Because when I want opinions on what makes a good corn chip, I turn to the bespectacled guy who makes Phil Hartman's old Anal-Retentive Chef character seem relaxed.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:31 PM on November 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Because when I want opinions on what makes a good corn chip, I turn to the bespectacled guy who makes Phil Hartman's old Anal-Retentive Chef character seem relaxed.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:31 PM on November 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
A few weeks later, but due to being totally sick of election podcasts, I fired up the new episode of ATK Radio, and to my surprise, Bridget Lancaster is now the host. Guess that solves that question.
posted by General Malaise at 9:49 AM on November 17, 2016
posted by General Malaise at 9:49 AM on November 17, 2016
P.S. it's like 200% better with Bridget hosting and Jack backing her up.
posted by General Malaise at 1:40 PM on November 17, 2016
posted by General Malaise at 1:40 PM on November 17, 2016
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