“Kill the chicken to frighten the monkey.”
November 7, 2016 2:57 PM Subscribe
Writing on the Wall: Disappeared Booksellers and Free Expression in Hong Kong [Pen.org] provides the most comprehensive account to date of the disappearance of five Hong Kong booksellers [wiki: Causeway Bay Books Disappearances] in late 2015, and gives special attention to the worrying cases of booksellers Gui Minhai and Lee Bo, both foreign nationals who were seized by Chinese agents across borders—in Thailand and Hong Kong, respectively—in violation of international law. This unprecedented action reflects a dangerous escalation of China's tactics to silence dissidents even beyond its borders. [Full Report] [Executive Summary] [在此处阅读中文版执行摘要] [.pdf]
- If China Meant to Chill Hong Kong Speech, Booksellers’ Case Did the Job [The New York Times]
- If China Meant to Chill Hong Kong Speech, Booksellers’ Case Did the Job [The New York Times]
The lack of information about the disappearances, and what one returning bookseller said were forced confessions, have sowed fear in Hong Kong’s once-thriving publishing community. China’s government has never given an explanation as to why it took such extraordinary measures against only one of many publishers. Was it, the report asks, to prevent the publication of a particular book? Or was the aim to coerce the publishers into revealing their sources? Perhaps it was to obtain lists of customers? Or maybe it was to shut down the biggest publisher of such books?- Push China To Ensure Rights of Hongkongers Are Protected, US Officials Urge [South China Morning Post]“This constellation of theories, none mutually exclusive and none confirmed, has created an atmosphere of uncertainty,” the report said. “It is impossible for independent publishers who produce books critical of China’s rulers to know how not to cross the line and become the next targets because it is unclear where that line is drawn. The only sure response is to take no steps at all.”
“In its latest annual report on human rights and rule of law conditions in China, the Congressional-Executive Commission on China has particularly highlighted the worrying case of the five missing booksellers, who were allegedly abducted by mainland agents last year for publishing and selling books critical of the Chinese Communist Party. “The growing influence of the Chinese central government and Communist Party and suspected activity by Chinese authorities in Hong Kong – notably the disappearance, alleged abduction, and detention in mainland China of five Hong Kong booksellers – raised fears regarding Hong Kong’s autonomy within China as guaranteed under the ‘one country, two systems’ policy enshrined in the Basic Law, which prohibits mainland Chinese authorities from interfering in Hong Kong’s internal affairs,” the report read.” [...] The Hong Kong government issued a press release in response to the report late Friday night advising foreign legislatures not to interfere in the internal affairs of Hong Kong. “Since the return to the Motherland, the HKSAR has been exercising a high degree of autonomy and ‘Hong Kong people administering Hong Kong’ in accordance with the Basic Law,” the statement added. “This demonstrates the successful implementation of the “one country, two systems” principle, which is widely recognised by the international communities.”- Hong Kong Booksellers Held For 'Illegal Activities', Say China Police [The Guardian] [February 4, 2016]
“The three men – Lui Por, Cheung Chi-ping and Lam Wing-kee, who were linked to the Causeway Bay Books shop – had had “criminal compulsory measures” imposed on them, Chinese police in the southern province of Guangdong told Hong Kong police. This was the first indication by mainland Chinese authorities as to the fate of the three since they were reported missing last November. No other details of their location or condition were given. Hong Kong police referred to the letter from the Chinese police in a statement, but did not make it public in full. Two other Hong Kong booksellers who also disappeared, Gui Minhai and Lee Bo, are believed to have been abducted or coerced from Thailand and Hong Kong respectively, and taken to China, according to foreign diplomats. Hong Kong police said China had also given them a handwritten letter from Lee, stating that he was in China. In the letter Lee declined a request by Hong Kong police to meet him. He gave no further details.”
To, uh, make that analogy stick, wouldn't the United States have to be a massively corrupt and repressive regime over that time period? I mean, our government isn't fantastic, but I think we're a bit more tolerant of dissent* at the very least...
*Current political environment not withstanding.
posted by combinatorial explosion at 5:13 PM on November 7, 2016
*Current political environment not withstanding.
posted by combinatorial explosion at 5:13 PM on November 7, 2016
Wound on national pride - it's a bit of a travesty that they don't seem to be taking any of the good ideas that Hong Kong can provide and slowly apply them to the mainland. Then again, if you're totally fixated on the wound thing...
posted by combinatorial explosion at 5:17 PM on November 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by combinatorial explosion at 5:17 PM on November 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Imagine if San Francisco...
Exactly. The vast majority of reportage on China is a version of Orwell's Two Minutes of Hate. Americans are denied useful and informational reportage because it serves America's baked-in party line of Competition Creates Bestestesses party line.
I mean, our government isn't fantastic, but I think we're a bit more tolerant of dissent* at the very least...
No...That's not assumed. There are ranges and degrees of state scrutiny to compare and contrast and having lived in both countries I can be alternatively accused of bias and awareness...
In fact, asserting America is tolerant of dissent is a privileged assumption and parroted nonsense. Land of the Free has been reduced to a punchline and guess who's telling the jokes?
posted by lazycomputerkids at 5:22 PM on November 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Exactly. The vast majority of reportage on China is a version of Orwell's Two Minutes of Hate. Americans are denied useful and informational reportage because it serves America's baked-in party line of Competition Creates Bestestesses party line.
I mean, our government isn't fantastic, but I think we're a bit more tolerant of dissent* at the very least...
No...That's not assumed. There are ranges and degrees of state scrutiny to compare and contrast and having lived in both countries I can be alternatively accused of bias and awareness...
In fact, asserting America is tolerant of dissent is a privileged assumption and parroted nonsense. Land of the Free has been reduced to a punchline and guess who's telling the jokes?
posted by lazycomputerkids at 5:22 PM on November 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Seriously? You don't think there's any meaningful difference between the US and the PRC in terms of freedom of speech?
posted by languagehat at 5:25 PM on November 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 5:25 PM on November 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
Seriously?
Not exactly a respectful address and a conversational marker of incredulity. You should know that. But to engage in good faith-- You've loaded much into "there's". There are many meaningful differences to consider in terms of historical charter and present-day expression and I'm happy to go down the line of any topic and examine the differences.
I'm loathe to generalize. As I stated: Ranges and degrees of state scrutiny...
posted by lazycomputerkids at 5:33 PM on November 7, 2016
Not exactly a respectful address and a conversational marker of incredulity. You should know that. But to engage in good faith-- You've loaded much into "there's". There are many meaningful differences to consider in terms of historical charter and present-day expression and I'm happy to go down the line of any topic and examine the differences.
I'm loathe to generalize. As I stated: Ranges and degrees of state scrutiny...
posted by lazycomputerkids at 5:33 PM on November 7, 2016
There are many meaningful differences to consider in terms of historical charter and present-day expression and I'm happy to go down the line of any topic and examine the differences.
I'm loathe to generalize. As I stated: Ranges and degrees of state scrutiny...
Yeah I mean I think in this case we're looking at the forced disappearance of the press.
Which is something that doesn't happen in the US, whatever else does.
So yeah.
posted by TheProfessor at 6:02 PM on November 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm loathe to generalize. As I stated: Ranges and degrees of state scrutiny...
Yeah I mean I think in this case we're looking at the forced disappearance of the press.
Which is something that doesn't happen in the US, whatever else does.
So yeah.
posted by TheProfessor at 6:02 PM on November 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted. Folks, let's turn this thread around and point it back towards Hong Kong and the actual situation described in the articles -- let's not make everything about the US.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 6:13 PM on November 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 6:13 PM on November 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Maybe China's suffered a festering wound on their national pride, but how about asking the people who actually live in Hong Kong what they want. It's not an abstract national symbol, it's a place with real, living, breathing people who are impacted by decisions from Beijing.
Meanwhile: Hong Kong pro-democracy politicians banned by China as crisis grows (The Guardian)
I have no hope for anything we can do to turn the tide. Protests are useless. Elections are a sham. Any uprising would last about five minutes and end in violence. HK isn't important enough for other countries to risk their relationships with China by stepping in. All we can do is wait and hope things change on the mainland.
posted by airmail at 6:54 PM on November 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
Meanwhile: Hong Kong pro-democracy politicians banned by China as crisis grows (The Guardian)
I have no hope for anything we can do to turn the tide. Protests are useless. Elections are a sham. Any uprising would last about five minutes and end in violence. HK isn't important enough for other countries to risk their relationships with China by stepping in. All we can do is wait and hope things change on the mainland.
posted by airmail at 6:54 PM on November 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
I was going to ask what they might do to book scouts or its cultural equvilant. I remember my Japanese Professor had a beautiful phrase: 'when the Ch'in faded, books began to fall out of the walls and grow from garden pots'
posted by clavdivs at 6:59 PM on November 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 6:59 PM on November 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's not an abstract national symbol, it's a place with real, living, breathing people who are impacted by decisions from Beijing.
And elsewhere...Rising sea levels set to displace 45 million people in Hong Kong, Shanghai and Tianjin if earth warms 4 degrees from climate change
posted by lazycomputerkids at 7:22 PM on November 7, 2016
And elsewhere...Rising sea levels set to displace 45 million people in Hong Kong, Shanghai and Tianjin if earth warms 4 degrees from climate change
posted by lazycomputerkids at 7:22 PM on November 7, 2016
What is the ideal outcome? Most residents don't believe outright independence to be practical (nor would it ever be allowed by China). What many hoped is that the rights they had wouldn't be restricted as a result of the 1997 handover for the full duration of the One Country Two Systems policy, which expires in 2047. And that, by then, China will have changed enough that the changes would be less noticeable.
But things have changed, and I don't know how much of it was avoidable. Mandarin is more commonplace, and now less than 40% of primary schools (grades 1-6) teach Chinese using only Cantonese, the predominant dialect, and 25% teach Chinese using only Mandarin. Even if there were no malice on the part of China, it's easy to see how these changes can lead to resentment.
Speaking as someone with close ties to HK, it's hard not to feel grief for what the city used to be and for the growing pains that are necessary for HK to be -- well, no one quite knows. The power imbalance between HK and China is great enough (and Hong Kong prosperous enough not to risk revolt) that whatever course the mainland chooses to take will likely come to pass. It's more of a question of how much of the city's uniqueness -- or, forgive the romanticism, soul -- and competitiveness is lost as a consequence.
posted by wallgrub at 8:03 PM on November 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
But things have changed, and I don't know how much of it was avoidable. Mandarin is more commonplace, and now less than 40% of primary schools (grades 1-6) teach Chinese using only Cantonese, the predominant dialect, and 25% teach Chinese using only Mandarin. Even if there were no malice on the part of China, it's easy to see how these changes can lead to resentment.
Speaking as someone with close ties to HK, it's hard not to feel grief for what the city used to be and for the growing pains that are necessary for HK to be -- well, no one quite knows. The power imbalance between HK and China is great enough (and Hong Kong prosperous enough not to risk revolt) that whatever course the mainland chooses to take will likely come to pass. It's more of a question of how much of the city's uniqueness -- or, forgive the romanticism, soul -- and competitiveness is lost as a consequence.
posted by wallgrub at 8:03 PM on November 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
The whole point of disappearing the people who trade in ideas is to kill the ability of the populace to envision a future.
posted by polymodus at 12:58 AM on November 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 12:58 AM on November 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Even if there were no malice on the part of China, it's easy to see how these changes can lead to resentment.
"Malice" is maybe taking it a bit far, but many of the changes you describe are definitely the calculated result of policy from both mainland and HK government. The slow loss of Cantonese is just the most visible effect of a deliberate attempt to dilute a Hong Kong national identity out of existence. It's probably a major contributing factor to the mainland's moves with regard to LegCo and the Basic Law are controversial rather than almost universally loathed.
posted by Dysk at 3:03 AM on November 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Malice" is maybe taking it a bit far, but many of the changes you describe are definitely the calculated result of policy from both mainland and HK government. The slow loss of Cantonese is just the most visible effect of a deliberate attempt to dilute a Hong Kong national identity out of existence. It's probably a major contributing factor to the mainland's moves with regard to LegCo and the Basic Law are controversial rather than almost universally loathed.
posted by Dysk at 3:03 AM on November 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mod note: A couple deleted. I'm sorry, but there's just no way for this to be about Hong Kong / China when people keep bringing up the US. As requested earlier, please stick to Hong Kong and the actual situation described in the articles
posted by taz (staff) at 3:43 AM on November 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 3:43 AM on November 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
The whole point...
Of abstraction and rhetoric is not to achieve conclusion without examination.
Disappearing? No. Intimidation and fear are the state's goals with night arrests and indefinite detainment on matters the state deems seditious. No one prioritizing liberty is a fan of any state defining sedition, but what large and regional nation state does not?
Trade in ideas? Advocacy is a narrow exchange. Calls to action? See above.
Kill the ability-- How much poetry do you require? Literary devices are insufferable in terms of policy. Real suffering is the result of all policy, so the language is as simple and quantitative as possible given it, nonetheless, will be corrupted by power and passions that speak truth to power. But absolutes are another just form of manipulation. Go stir a crowd.
Envision a future: Versus? This collocation is closest to corporate ad copy.
A minority's perspective/expressions/you name it... are simultaneously valuable and threatened.
These goddamned business periodicals are edited by assholes deep in the salons of speculative markets and exercising their freedom of expression to provide the cold war of one culture's ignorance of another.
The narrative is the poor, poor Chinese are hoodwinked by the government and it is destructive. An angle, a sell, a pitch, a confidence of that narrative is "freedom" and "danger".
posted by lazycomputerkids at 4:44 AM on November 8, 2016
Of abstraction and rhetoric is not to achieve conclusion without examination.
Disappearing? No. Intimidation and fear are the state's goals with night arrests and indefinite detainment on matters the state deems seditious. No one prioritizing liberty is a fan of any state defining sedition, but what large and regional nation state does not?
Trade in ideas? Advocacy is a narrow exchange. Calls to action? See above.
Kill the ability-- How much poetry do you require? Literary devices are insufferable in terms of policy. Real suffering is the result of all policy, so the language is as simple and quantitative as possible given it, nonetheless, will be corrupted by power and passions that speak truth to power. But absolutes are another just form of manipulation. Go stir a crowd.
Envision a future: Versus? This collocation is closest to corporate ad copy.
A minority's perspective/expressions/you name it... are simultaneously valuable and threatened.
These goddamned business periodicals are edited by assholes deep in the salons of speculative markets and exercising their freedom of expression to provide the cold war of one culture's ignorance of another.
The narrative is the poor, poor Chinese are hoodwinked by the government and it is destructive. An angle, a sell, a pitch, a confidence of that narrative is "freedom" and "danger".
posted by lazycomputerkids at 4:44 AM on November 8, 2016
No one prioritizing liberty is a fan of any state defining sedition, but what large and regional nation state does not?
The issue is not merely that the Chinese state defines "sedition" broadly. It is also the fact that the definition is so deeply unclear around its boundaries that it is hard to know what will count as a violation -- as the article points out, the chilling effect of this on speech is enormous -- and the well-attested procedural problems with Chinese state trials for these political offences, including televised confessions, torture, deprivation of access to a lawyer, and indefinite detention, prior to trial, in unknown locations without access to one's family. These are real problems with the mainland legal culture as it currently is, and represent good reasons for Hong Kong lawyers and citizens to be terrified by the indications that mainland legal practices will become the norm there.
I'm afraid I don't follow the rest of your argument. Either the Chinese will comply with their treaty obligation to respect Hong Kong's legal system and its limited autonomy or they will not. The people of Hong Kong have a right to be frightened by the prospect that their system will be lost, especially given the current trends towards increasing repression seen in the mainland system. You don't have to be the editor of a business periodical or a market trader to understand the problem with that, although of course one of the results of the change will be profound damage to the Hong Kong economy.
posted by Aravis76 at 7:54 AM on November 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
The issue is not merely that the Chinese state defines "sedition" broadly. It is also the fact that the definition is so deeply unclear around its boundaries that it is hard to know what will count as a violation -- as the article points out, the chilling effect of this on speech is enormous -- and the well-attested procedural problems with Chinese state trials for these political offences, including televised confessions, torture, deprivation of access to a lawyer, and indefinite detention, prior to trial, in unknown locations without access to one's family. These are real problems with the mainland legal culture as it currently is, and represent good reasons for Hong Kong lawyers and citizens to be terrified by the indications that mainland legal practices will become the norm there.
I'm afraid I don't follow the rest of your argument. Either the Chinese will comply with their treaty obligation to respect Hong Kong's legal system and its limited autonomy or they will not. The people of Hong Kong have a right to be frightened by the prospect that their system will be lost, especially given the current trends towards increasing repression seen in the mainland system. You don't have to be the editor of a business periodical or a market trader to understand the problem with that, although of course one of the results of the change will be profound damage to the Hong Kong economy.
posted by Aravis76 at 7:54 AM on November 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
The average HKer will never write an editorial criticizing the government or get embroiled in battles for political power. Even if there were real elections, they might not bothered to vote. But corruption and suppression of the press and the rule of law trickle down to everyday life. In HK, people believe you can start a business, visit a hospital, apply for a school, or argue your case in court without paying bribes. You can buy food from the supermarket and it won't be poisoned. Can the CCP guarantee this? Looking at the situation on the mainland, most HKers conclude: no.
posted by airmail at 8:53 AM on November 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by airmail at 8:53 AM on November 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
lazycomputerkids, I don't comprehend your concern. You criticize almost each phrase of mine, but in the process deftly draw attention away from the topic, which I had explicitly identified. The booksellers. Do you suppose that they would actually disagree with what I said earlier? You know what kind of books they sell, right?
posted by polymodus at 3:15 PM on November 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 3:15 PM on November 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
« Older "Music equals good..." | A shot of scotch Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by radicalawyer at 3:11 PM on November 7, 2016 [4 favorites]