I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
November 13, 2016 10:59 AM Subscribe
I must have missed the part where it said "Ron Perlman as Batou"???
posted by Sternmeyer at 11:13 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Sternmeyer at 11:13 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
A version with comments from Mamoru Oshii.
posted by forforf at 11:19 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by forforf at 11:19 AM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
"If you liked the Matrix you'll love Ghost in the Shell. It's got fight choreography just like The Matrix, only now the hot chick looks naked."
posted by Nelson at 11:20 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 11:20 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
This seems like it's not going to be weird enough or slow enough to be what I want it to be.
posted by aubilenon at 11:23 AM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 11:23 AM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
Seriously though, the whitewashing of the cast aside (which actually looks more like a general Americanizing of Japan) the movie looks about the level of Lucy, or Ultraviolet or Babylon A.D. Which to say it looks like it's got awesome imagery and slick cinematography but I dunno if it'll rise above interchangeable action flick status.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:24 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 11:24 AM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Interesting to see the visual approach.
For those who have not been following the whitewash issues:
DreamWorks: Stop Whitewashing Asian Characters!
Ghost in the Shell hires Japanese actress Rila Fukushima amidst whitewashing controversy
posted by greenhornet at 11:30 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
For those who have not been following the whitewash issues:
DreamWorks: Stop Whitewashing Asian Characters!
Ghost in the Shell hires Japanese actress Rila Fukushima amidst whitewashing controversy
posted by greenhornet at 11:30 AM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
This looks bad but, to my surprise, I would still like to see it.
Don't know if I will be able to get this quite right but:
It's true that the vulnerability of the Major is one of the notes you can play in a Ghost in the Shell. But it's a counterpoint. It works because she's invulnerable, omni-competent, and utterly confident and self-reliant. She's driven by an inner sense of purpose.
You can't just make her character about her doubts. If you tell her, "Everything they told you was a lie," she will probably kill you right there. She is not fazed by that kind of thing. The apparent device of taking away her past is maybe enough to fuck up her character by itself (also: total cliché!).
The trailer makes it seem like they don't get it, then. Now, you can cut a trailer to have the exact opposite emphasis of the movie, so this is a noisy indicator only. But I find myself slightly pissed.
posted by grobstein at 11:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [20 favorites]
Don't know if I will be able to get this quite right but:
It's true that the vulnerability of the Major is one of the notes you can play in a Ghost in the Shell. But it's a counterpoint. It works because she's invulnerable, omni-competent, and utterly confident and self-reliant. She's driven by an inner sense of purpose.
You can't just make her character about her doubts. If you tell her, "Everything they told you was a lie," she will probably kill you right there. She is not fazed by that kind of thing. The apparent device of taking away her past is maybe enough to fuck up her character by itself (also: total cliché!).
The trailer makes it seem like they don't get it, then. Now, you can cut a trailer to have the exact opposite emphasis of the movie, so this is a noisy indicator only. But I find myself slightly pissed.
posted by grobstein at 11:57 AM on November 13, 2016 [20 favorites]
But I like the visual work, wow
posted by grobstein at 11:58 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by grobstein at 11:58 AM on November 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
The original Ghost in the Shell movie was more interesting for its visual and sound design than its story, which could have been good, but was hobbled by a lot of clumsy philosophizing. I say this someone who still loves this movie like a lot.
TBH, I don't think that that there is a lot of material there that will translate well in a remake. Which makes me feel less frustrated by my decision to boycott it due to the whitewashing.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:02 PM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
TBH, I don't think that that there is a lot of material there that will translate well in a remake. Which makes me feel less frustrated by my decision to boycott it due to the whitewashing.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:02 PM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! I HAVE HAD IT WITH THESE MOTHERLOVING GOATS IN THIS MOTHERLOVING SHELL!
posted by comealongpole at 12:05 PM on November 13, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by comealongpole at 12:05 PM on November 13, 2016 [19 favorites]
Looks interesting, it's on the list of things to possibly see. For one there seems to be story there than in the original anime.
Plus, there's Ron Perlman.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:05 PM on November 13, 2016
Plus, there's Ron Perlman.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:05 PM on November 13, 2016
That is Euron Greyjoy in a Ron Perlman wig. The real Ron Perlman is busy running for president.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:08 PM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 12:08 PM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
TBH, I don't think that that there is a lot of material there that will translate well in a remake. Which makes me feel less frustrated by my decision to boycott it due to the whitewashing.
Well there is the first Ghost in the Shell movie and then there is a huge and often contradictory canon of other Ghost in the Shell media -- all kinds of media, many different creators, etc.
So it's actually a very rich source material. The first theatrical movie is neither definitive nor (I think) the best presentation of the material.
posted by grobstein at 12:08 PM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well there is the first Ghost in the Shell movie and then there is a huge and often contradictory canon of other Ghost in the Shell media -- all kinds of media, many different creators, etc.
So it's actually a very rich source material. The first theatrical movie is neither definitive nor (I think) the best presentation of the material.
posted by grobstein at 12:08 PM on November 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Um, that's not Ron Perlman. It's Euron Greyjoy.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:08 PM on November 13, 2016
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:08 PM on November 13, 2016
Looks interesting, it's on the list of things to possibly see. For one there seems to be story there than in the original anime.
Plus, there's Euron Greyjoy!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:17 PM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Plus, there's Euron Greyjoy!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:17 PM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
What Japanese Think of Whitewashing.
posted by Pendragon at 12:23 PM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 12:23 PM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
Some Meiji Era Japanese weren't offended by The Mikado, so this wouldn't be the first time.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:36 PM on November 13, 2016
posted by Apocryphon at 12:36 PM on November 13, 2016
That link on Japanese views of whitewashing is worth watching since it does seem to point to some of the complexity of talking about race in anime, where race often doesn't fit into the same sorts of constructs as it does in the real world, for good and bad.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:52 PM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 12:52 PM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
> What Japanese Think of Whitewashing.
My knee would jerk less if the race-changing done in U.S. adaptations was arbitrary or more exploratory. Or in other words, it's not that the heroine is generically northern European, it's that almost everybody with a speaking part is generically northern European (excepting the ones that are deliberately otherwise; the street thugs, the old yakuza boss, the temple monks, all symbols of old Japan in their ways). If the setting was moved elsewhere, and the trappings of luxury were internationalized rather than exclusively tokens of perennial Japan travelogue exotica -- the geisha, the dark bars with floor seating, the temples -- it'd be easier to accept the casual racial transposition of the main character. Because while on the one hand, sure, as a cyborg The Major can be any race (or shape), she's going to be designed to fit among the people around her. Which we're set up to believe will be Japanese, or conceding for a moment a far-future scenario in which Japan is more extensively integrated than it is now, will be a racial palette with more than two colors.
So it's important to be sensitive to the needs and sensibilities of other ethnic groups when you're mining their tropes, but that's not the only consideration. If not just one video blogger's vox pop but the entire nation of Japan, in unison, declare they aren't offended by the large-scale cultural appropriation, that's still not sufficient leverage for justifying unconsidered racial transplants in American movies, because the story's own internal logic needs to work. The trailer begs the queestion "Does it make sense for a future-Japan to be deeply wedded to the symbology and rituals of its past, but be populated primarily by Europeans?" I have only the trailer to go by, but it makes no damn sense yet.
posted by ardgedee at 1:32 PM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
My knee would jerk less if the race-changing done in U.S. adaptations was arbitrary or more exploratory. Or in other words, it's not that the heroine is generically northern European, it's that almost everybody with a speaking part is generically northern European (excepting the ones that are deliberately otherwise; the street thugs, the old yakuza boss, the temple monks, all symbols of old Japan in their ways). If the setting was moved elsewhere, and the trappings of luxury were internationalized rather than exclusively tokens of perennial Japan travelogue exotica -- the geisha, the dark bars with floor seating, the temples -- it'd be easier to accept the casual racial transposition of the main character. Because while on the one hand, sure, as a cyborg The Major can be any race (or shape), she's going to be designed to fit among the people around her. Which we're set up to believe will be Japanese, or conceding for a moment a far-future scenario in which Japan is more extensively integrated than it is now, will be a racial palette with more than two colors.
So it's important to be sensitive to the needs and sensibilities of other ethnic groups when you're mining their tropes, but that's not the only consideration. If not just one video blogger's vox pop but the entire nation of Japan, in unison, declare they aren't offended by the large-scale cultural appropriation, that's still not sufficient leverage for justifying unconsidered racial transplants in American movies, because the story's own internal logic needs to work. The trailer begs the queestion "Does it make sense for a future-Japan to be deeply wedded to the symbology and rituals of its past, but be populated primarily by Europeans?" I have only the trailer to go by, but it makes no damn sense yet.
posted by ardgedee at 1:32 PM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm shocked that this looks way worse than I could ever imagine. It looks utterly boring. I will adjust my expectations should Hollywood come through with a live action Cowboy Bebop film.
posted by juiceCake at 1:58 PM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by juiceCake at 1:58 PM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Visual design is on-point, and they seem to be cribbing the most iconic shots and sequences. I'm still skeptical that it will be anything but a horrid half-assed adaptation of the story (which, as others have noted, really wasn't exactly stellar).
But who can even tell what the story is--that trailer doesn't give much avenue to people unfamiliar with the manga to understand what it's about. "Oh, Scarlet Johannson is some kind of robot? OK, I guess. She's not-nude and fighting some dudes and, um, there's a weird Blade Runner thing going on. I'm going to see what else is playing."
posted by Room 101 at 2:33 PM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
But who can even tell what the story is--that trailer doesn't give much avenue to people unfamiliar with the manga to understand what it's about. "Oh, Scarlet Johannson is some kind of robot? OK, I guess. She's not-nude and fighting some dudes and, um, there's a weird Blade Runner thing going on. I'm going to see what else is playing."
posted by Room 101 at 2:33 PM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
The narrative touches at the end of the trailer about how "I'll find out who I was" and "everything you told you was a lie" are so generic and cliche
posted by Apocryphon at 2:40 PM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 2:40 PM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
i love all cyberpunk and hope this move is amazing
posted by rebent at 2:43 PM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by rebent at 2:43 PM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
I like the part where the whitewashing in a film specifically made in America for Americans gets a pass because Asians from a different nation, who have never felt othered about their race or had to deal with microaggressions or did not have to grow up where most all the media they consumed growing up either had a great white lead or a largely emasculated or exotified Asian secondary, said they were, at best, miffed
y'all know there are Asian-Americans who probably are a little disconcerted that they're getting dumped on again by a largely white, male industry that plays such a big role in determining culture, right? or is this another one of those bubbles people don't seek to avoid and thus have no clue, whatsoever, how other people see the world?
posted by runt at 3:17 PM on November 13, 2016 [18 favorites]
y'all know there are Asian-Americans who probably are a little disconcerted that they're getting dumped on again by a largely white, male industry that plays such a big role in determining culture, right? or is this another one of those bubbles people don't seek to avoid and thus have no clue, whatsoever, how other people see the world?
posted by runt at 3:17 PM on November 13, 2016 [18 favorites]
No thanks.
posted by cristinacristinacristina at 3:51 PM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by cristinacristinacristina at 3:51 PM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ugh, I was already disappointed because of the whitewashing, but the whole "I'll find out who I am" nonsense is almost cartoonishly out of character. And what's with her calling herself The Major? The lack of a team as a grounding force is unexpectedly bugging me as well; in the manga, the movie, and the tv show all of the "solo attacker in a room of people" is actually her being backed by an enormous team she's in constant contact with.
There's no sign of the Puppetmaster from the first book/movie, or the Laughing Man or Individual 11 from the TV show. The circle of figures could be a reference to Stabat Mater from the Third Manga, but the inclusion of Batou without at least references to the Puppetmaster, Laughing Man, or Individual 11 is very, very strange unless they're trying to make some new philosophical core, and that seems unlikely. Both the Laughing Man (a phenomena of copy cats and stochatic activism/violence) and the Individual 11 (terrorism as a cover for government manipulation) would be a lot more meaningful now than the Puppetmaster (AIs as a new species) would be, but it looks a lot like they set up a bog standard "strong female character" plot and included a few iconic scenes and Kusanagi's canonical bisexuality for titillation. All in all... I'm seriously depressed by what this looks like.
One of my gripes with more recent interpretations of Ghost in the Shell is that they haven't gender-swapped half the team. It would be cake. Aramaki might be the most interesting swap because it would shift the dynamic subtly without changing it overtly, but Ishikawa and Saito could easily be women, and a Pazu/Borma mixed gender team would be interesting. Togusa should stay a guy for the gender dynamics alone (ditto Batou) because those dynamics are unchanged, but the rest of the team would be more interesting with a mix of genders and sexualities (like, Pazu/Borma mixed gender but with both homosexual would be fascinating).
posted by Deoridhe at 4:10 PM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
There's no sign of the Puppetmaster from the first book/movie, or the Laughing Man or Individual 11 from the TV show. The circle of figures could be a reference to Stabat Mater from the Third Manga, but the inclusion of Batou without at least references to the Puppetmaster, Laughing Man, or Individual 11 is very, very strange unless they're trying to make some new philosophical core, and that seems unlikely. Both the Laughing Man (a phenomena of copy cats and stochatic activism/violence) and the Individual 11 (terrorism as a cover for government manipulation) would be a lot more meaningful now than the Puppetmaster (AIs as a new species) would be, but it looks a lot like they set up a bog standard "strong female character" plot and included a few iconic scenes and Kusanagi's canonical bisexuality for titillation. All in all... I'm seriously depressed by what this looks like.
One of my gripes with more recent interpretations of Ghost in the Shell is that they haven't gender-swapped half the team. It would be cake. Aramaki might be the most interesting swap because it would shift the dynamic subtly without changing it overtly, but Ishikawa and Saito could easily be women, and a Pazu/Borma mixed gender team would be interesting. Togusa should stay a guy for the gender dynamics alone (ditto Batou) because those dynamics are unchanged, but the rest of the team would be more interesting with a mix of genders and sexualities (like, Pazu/Borma mixed gender but with both homosexual would be fascinating).
posted by Deoridhe at 4:10 PM on November 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
I was all set to argue for the cultural appropriation, but then I actually watched half the trailer. Ugh.
If they had Americanized the story and set it in New York and made her a blonde... sure, why not. Hollywood does this with French and Japanese movies all the time.
But it's evidently still set in Japan-- heck, they go out of their way to throw in completely unnecessary ultra-Japanese tropes. In that case, jeez, do not cast Scarlett Johannson. And do not do not do not try (and fail) to make her look Japanese.
And if that weren't enough... I like a good catsuit, but come on, Hollywood, literally making her look naked is just stupid. Kusanagi actually wore things in the manga.
posted by zompist at 4:21 PM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
If they had Americanized the story and set it in New York and made her a blonde... sure, why not. Hollywood does this with French and Japanese movies all the time.
But it's evidently still set in Japan-- heck, they go out of their way to throw in completely unnecessary ultra-Japanese tropes. In that case, jeez, do not cast Scarlett Johannson. And do not do not do not try (and fail) to make her look Japanese.
And if that weren't enough... I like a good catsuit, but come on, Hollywood, literally making her look naked is just stupid. Kusanagi actually wore things in the manga.
posted by zompist at 4:21 PM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
Plus, why the black hair? It doesn't look good on her, and in the (first) manga and anime it was blue or purple.
posted by zompist at 4:28 PM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zompist at 4:28 PM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
For one there seems to be story there than in the original anime.
There was certainly a story in the original, but much of it was implied and inferred. Entire depths of character were explored in wordless montages, for instance. They handled it gracefully, not beating you over the head with it like this, where the dialogue is all "I DONT FEEL CONNECTED OMG WHAT AM I" and "THEY'RE LYING TO YOU"
posted by naju at 5:22 PM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
There was certainly a story in the original, but much of it was implied and inferred. Entire depths of character were explored in wordless montages, for instance. They handled it gracefully, not beating you over the head with it like this, where the dialogue is all "I DONT FEEL CONNECTED OMG WHAT AM I" and "THEY'RE LYING TO YOU"
posted by naju at 5:22 PM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
GITS had such a brilliant soundtrack, by the way. What is this weak Depeche Mode trip hop cover shit.
posted by naju at 5:29 PM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by naju at 5:29 PM on November 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
Looks kinda terrible. Hopefully that's just lousy marketing, because I'm definitely gonna watch it. I'm am a complete sucker for GITS media.
posted by figurant at 6:02 PM on November 13, 2016
posted by figurant at 6:02 PM on November 13, 2016
in the (first) manga and anime it was blue or purple.
The hair color hasn't really been static, and honestly, dark blue or purple hair is sometimes used in anime as a stylized version of "black hair" anyway, in that it's easier to animate and more interesting-looking, but if the creators of it were to make a live action movie, the actor's wig would be black, not blue or purple. (I can't get inside the heads of the people in charge and say if that was their intention here, but it's a consideration.)
On a personal note, I think the whitewashing is really monumentally stupid, but outside of that, I think she actually looks pretty good with black hair. (That's just down to personal preference, I suspect.)
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 7:09 PM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
The hair color hasn't really been static, and honestly, dark blue or purple hair is sometimes used in anime as a stylized version of "black hair" anyway, in that it's easier to animate and more interesting-looking, but if the creators of it were to make a live action movie, the actor's wig would be black, not blue or purple. (I can't get inside the heads of the people in charge and say if that was their intention here, but it's a consideration.)
On a personal note, I think the whitewashing is really monumentally stupid, but outside of that, I think she actually looks pretty good with black hair. (That's just down to personal preference, I suspect.)
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 7:09 PM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
It doesn't matter what I think, it's gonna sell like hotcakes because it's a paper thin vehicle for male gaze ScarJo titillation. That's disappointing in itself; she subverted the male gaze so well in Under the Skin.
posted by naju at 7:10 PM on November 13, 2016
posted by naju at 7:10 PM on November 13, 2016
> There's no sign of the Puppetmaster from the first book/movie, or the Laughing Man or Individual 11
My first impression was that it was related to GITS II: Innocence, which involves gynoids who are malfunctioning and killing their Johns (and were, as it turns out, contained illegal ghost-dubs from captive women), includes a doll-obsessed hacker who lives in a prosthetic body fashioned to look like a marionette. However, that movie is mainly Batou and Togusa, owing to the Major's apparent demise at the end of the first movie, but of course there's more to her story. I wonder if the faceless maybe-villain in the trailer is meant to be Kuze, the "leader" of the Individual 11.
At least they aren't any Tachikoma spider tanks that talk like children and keep hounding Batou for natural oil.
posted by Sunburnt at 9:33 PM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
My first impression was that it was related to GITS II: Innocence, which involves gynoids who are malfunctioning and killing their Johns (and were, as it turns out, contained illegal ghost-dubs from captive women), includes a doll-obsessed hacker who lives in a prosthetic body fashioned to look like a marionette. However, that movie is mainly Batou and Togusa, owing to the Major's apparent demise at the end of the first movie, but of course there's more to her story. I wonder if the faceless maybe-villain in the trailer is meant to be Kuze, the "leader" of the Individual 11.
At least they aren't any Tachikoma spider tanks that talk like children and keep hounding Batou for natural oil.
posted by Sunburnt at 9:33 PM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I wonder if the faceless maybe-villain in the trailer is meant to be Kuze, the "leader" of the Individual 11.
Wikipedia says yeah.
This also fits with a lot of the other rhetoric in the trailer, which you'll know what I mean probably but is kinda spoiler territory.
posted by grobstein at 9:45 PM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wikipedia says yeah.
This also fits with a lot of the other rhetoric in the trailer, which you'll know what I mean probably but is kinda spoiler territory.
posted by grobstein at 9:45 PM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
At least they aren't any Tachikoma spider tanks
What do you mean, "at least"? The Tachikoma sentience arc is one of the most interesting bits of season one.
As for the preview, making the film focus on Kusanagi -- especially a memory wiped and moody Kusanagi -- is at best a horrible idea. Ghost in the Shell discards questions of identity very early on and moves onto sentience and souls. It looks like mixing explosions and existential philosophy proved too much for the screen writer.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:04 PM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
What do you mean, "at least"? The Tachikoma sentience arc is one of the most interesting bits of season one.
As for the preview, making the film focus on Kusanagi -- especially a memory wiped and moody Kusanagi -- is at best a horrible idea. Ghost in the Shell discards questions of identity very early on and moves onto sentience and souls. It looks like mixing explosions and existential philosophy proved too much for the screen writer.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:04 PM on November 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
Forget Ghost in the Shell. They'll never outdo Stand Alone Complex, which is one of the smartest sci-fi shows ever made.
I want a Tachikoma movie. I loved those things.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 10:31 PM on November 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
I want a Tachikoma movie. I loved those things.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 10:31 PM on November 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
I, too, thought that Scarlet could be a passible asian cyborg and that the whitewashing would be quite unobtrusive.
After watching that trailer there is so much "wtf? Why are all these americans in Japan?".
I like the set design and I am hoping that the CG gets a bit more work to get to a more reality based sheen on things (often trailers are cut from incomplete CG shots).
Of course, we saw some of the original GitS first movie scenes and some new stuff ...but, yeah, the voice over seems to point to a dumbed down, non-subtle americanised version of things. Which is sad.
I'll also say I liked the Tachicoma arc and their philisophical musings and development (and their attachment to Batou was funny :)).
@Deoridhe: wtf? You're saying you like GitS and the dynamic ... but let's change it all? WTF? Saying what you say, you cannot possibly be against the whitwashing, as you seemingly don't care if everything else in the team dynamic gets changed.
posted by MacD at 11:50 PM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
After watching that trailer there is so much "wtf? Why are all these americans in Japan?".
I like the set design and I am hoping that the CG gets a bit more work to get to a more reality based sheen on things (often trailers are cut from incomplete CG shots).
Of course, we saw some of the original GitS first movie scenes and some new stuff ...but, yeah, the voice over seems to point to a dumbed down, non-subtle americanised version of things. Which is sad.
I'll also say I liked the Tachicoma arc and their philisophical musings and development (and their attachment to Batou was funny :)).
@Deoridhe: wtf? You're saying you like GitS and the dynamic ... but let's change it all? WTF? Saying what you say, you cannot possibly be against the whitwashing, as you seemingly don't care if everything else in the team dynamic gets changed.
posted by MacD at 11:50 PM on November 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
What i get from the trailer is that they're going to steal every good action scenes from the anime, and remove every philosophical aspect of it and replace it by a vaguely Bourne-like plot about memory and identity.
posted by SageLeVoid at 12:06 AM on November 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by SageLeVoid at 12:06 AM on November 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
Haven't watched the original in 20 years. This looks great. Interesting visuals. I can't bring myself to get angry at a major production company whitewashing. They want the movie to be a success and I suspect it will play better in Asian markets as well with western actors. That's unfortunate. At least they're not going all John Wayne on it.
I don't see anime characters as representing Japanese people, nor do the japanese. Yes it's frustrating that white people are still the default movie star. Yes it's frustrating that we don't have any japanese-heritage stars with the drawing power of Scarlett Johansson. 50% of her career is putting on tight suits and beating people up in slow motion. From an investment standpoint, it makes sense. Would it have been more acceptable if the actress playing Major Kusanagi was asian but not japanese? What if she were Japanese but overly petite with no gravitas? (Not saying she would be, but I think japanese casting would present a different set new challenges.)
Could someone explain in detail what would have been acceptable? Should the production company have hired all Japanese actors, shot the movie in Japanese and filmed it in Japan? That seems like an unrealistic gamble, though I admit I'd be more interested in that set of choices.
On the bright side, this movie got made and it looks interesting to me. If this opens up the doors for more big budget anime productions, great. I don't think Cyberpunk settings are beholden to any one culture. The assumptions made by people like Gibson or Scott in the mid/late 1980s won't come ever come true. Cyberpunk is an awesome, anachronistic paleo-future that reflect the anxieties of the US in the 80s. Anime was a part of that conversation and I don't feel like any one country owns that vision.
Yes I would be angry if a Samurai Chomploo live action movie cast Ryan Reynolds and Chris Evans.
posted by Telf at 1:24 AM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't see anime characters as representing Japanese people, nor do the japanese. Yes it's frustrating that white people are still the default movie star. Yes it's frustrating that we don't have any japanese-heritage stars with the drawing power of Scarlett Johansson. 50% of her career is putting on tight suits and beating people up in slow motion. From an investment standpoint, it makes sense. Would it have been more acceptable if the actress playing Major Kusanagi was asian but not japanese? What if she were Japanese but overly petite with no gravitas? (Not saying she would be, but I think japanese casting would present a different set new challenges.)
Could someone explain in detail what would have been acceptable? Should the production company have hired all Japanese actors, shot the movie in Japanese and filmed it in Japan? That seems like an unrealistic gamble, though I admit I'd be more interested in that set of choices.
On the bright side, this movie got made and it looks interesting to me. If this opens up the doors for more big budget anime productions, great. I don't think Cyberpunk settings are beholden to any one culture. The assumptions made by people like Gibson or Scott in the mid/late 1980s won't come ever come true. Cyberpunk is an awesome, anachronistic paleo-future that reflect the anxieties of the US in the 80s. Anime was a part of that conversation and I don't feel like any one country owns that vision.
Yes I would be angry if a Samurai Chomploo live action movie cast Ryan Reynolds and Chris Evans.
posted by Telf at 1:24 AM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
50% of (Scarlett Johanssons) career is putting on tight suits and beating people up in slow motion.50% of her career is playing a character feeling mentally dislocated with her physical body. Obviously in Under The Skin, but also in Her, Lucy, The Island, Lost In Translation, and even to a lesser extent Age of Ultron. It looks like GitS will continue this line of work, combining it with her ability to kick ass in ridiculously high heels.
posted by WhackyparseThis at 2:10 AM on November 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
The trailer begs the queestion "Does it make sense for a future-Japan to be deeply wedded to the symbology and rituals of its past, but be populated primarily by Europeans?"
You mean the same Japan that is already deeply wedded to the symbology and rituals of its past, but adopts, transforms and straight out fetishizes Western culture at every turn? You're really having trouble believing they'd make at least one Western-looking super robot?
posted by obiwanwasabi at 2:23 AM on November 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
You mean the same Japan that is already deeply wedded to the symbology and rituals of its past, but adopts, transforms and straight out fetishizes Western culture at every turn? You're really having trouble believing they'd make at least one Western-looking super robot?
posted by obiwanwasabi at 2:23 AM on November 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't see anime characters as representing Japanese people, nor do the japanese.
This is a really odd thing to say. There are all kinds of stories in anime, and all kinds of characters. There are some characters that are explicitly not Japanese, and some where it's ambiguous--e.g. characters with Japanese names in fantastical settings.
But there are a hell of a lot of stories where the characters are unquestionably Japanese. They live in Japan, have Japanese names, follow Japanese religion, participate in Japanese institutions, and so on. Interpreting them as not Japanese requires some weird "color blind" logic that conveniently allows audiences to read clearly Japanese characters as white.
You can perhaps make an argument that for some stories, and some creators, the setting and the ethnicity of the characters is not the point, and that they are Japanese in the same way a lot of characters by American authors are American--that is, by default. But you cannot make a blanket statement about "anime characters."
Ghost in the Shell can be adapted to not take place in Japan, perhaps even with the original creator's blessing, but it will change the setting. It is clearly Japan, and the characters are clearly Japanese, regardless of their looks. They talk at sometimes nauseating length about Japanese politics, even!
When it comes to Ghost in the Shell, the futuristic setting means more is possible w.r.t. the ethnic make-up of Japan and people's choices about how they look, but here's the thing: Internal logic isn't the only thing that matters. Now, personally, I find the explanation that Japan fetishizes "Western culture" to the point that the majority of people in future Japan--except those that are employed as symbols of its past--will look white to be deeply suspect. But even if I accepted that internal logic, that's not the only criteria that a work can be judged by. Creators have choices, and those choices exist in a social context. Whitewashing is not just a problem because it's nonsensical.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:36 AM on November 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
This is a really odd thing to say. There are all kinds of stories in anime, and all kinds of characters. There are some characters that are explicitly not Japanese, and some where it's ambiguous--e.g. characters with Japanese names in fantastical settings.
But there are a hell of a lot of stories where the characters are unquestionably Japanese. They live in Japan, have Japanese names, follow Japanese religion, participate in Japanese institutions, and so on. Interpreting them as not Japanese requires some weird "color blind" logic that conveniently allows audiences to read clearly Japanese characters as white.
You can perhaps make an argument that for some stories, and some creators, the setting and the ethnicity of the characters is not the point, and that they are Japanese in the same way a lot of characters by American authors are American--that is, by default. But you cannot make a blanket statement about "anime characters."
Ghost in the Shell can be adapted to not take place in Japan, perhaps even with the original creator's blessing, but it will change the setting. It is clearly Japan, and the characters are clearly Japanese, regardless of their looks. They talk at sometimes nauseating length about Japanese politics, even!
When it comes to Ghost in the Shell, the futuristic setting means more is possible w.r.t. the ethnic make-up of Japan and people's choices about how they look, but here's the thing: Internal logic isn't the only thing that matters. Now, personally, I find the explanation that Japan fetishizes "Western culture" to the point that the majority of people in future Japan--except those that are employed as symbols of its past--will look white to be deeply suspect. But even if I accepted that internal logic, that's not the only criteria that a work can be judged by. Creators have choices, and those choices exist in a social context. Whitewashing is not just a problem because it's nonsensical.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:36 AM on November 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
Looking more closely at the trailer, there are a number of moments that suggest some possibility of the movie having some interest in the social context given some of the scenes showing people of color and the general theme of where one comes from and who they are. Now I have no faith that is anything but window dressing, but I'm not willing to discount the possibility either based on one 1:30 trailer.
Regarding whitewashing and anime more generally, while there is no question that Hollywood goes white whenever they can and that has a meaningful effect on the culture, there are some factors that inform that beyond the most obvious. The main one being due to Hollywood's success, white has become something like global neutral for film as Hollywood movies are shown everywhere and America has a certain status as a world power that gives white and English a different global meaning than would, say, making the film in Japan with Japanese actors. The relationship between Japan and its neighbors can create a different viewing context than the more physically distant and culturally ubiquitous Hollywood White at this point.
While Hollywood movies are made in the US, they are shown everywhere, so the decisions made, for good or ill, aren't just about US culture and how audiences in the US will respond, but how the rest of the world will too. That isn't an excuse for lack of diversity in casting, there seems to be a number of indications that more diversity in casts won't have a negative effect at the box office, but it is less certain whether non-White movies will enjoy the same success. So Hollywood relies on its white stars to carry films as a hedge to insure their investments since it works.
With anime it isn't entirely different in some regards, with a number of works being set in Japan and referencing it, but where the character design is anime neutral, non-specific background and national origin, other than very few black characters being present. In part, I suspect this too is too maintain their audiences in different parts of the world and is in another way influenced by the idea of it representing wider culture than just Japan even if the setting is there, just as US movies set in New York aren't necessarily UScentric in their intentions, even if they are in their prejudices.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:30 AM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
Regarding whitewashing and anime more generally, while there is no question that Hollywood goes white whenever they can and that has a meaningful effect on the culture, there are some factors that inform that beyond the most obvious. The main one being due to Hollywood's success, white has become something like global neutral for film as Hollywood movies are shown everywhere and America has a certain status as a world power that gives white and English a different global meaning than would, say, making the film in Japan with Japanese actors. The relationship between Japan and its neighbors can create a different viewing context than the more physically distant and culturally ubiquitous Hollywood White at this point.
While Hollywood movies are made in the US, they are shown everywhere, so the decisions made, for good or ill, aren't just about US culture and how audiences in the US will respond, but how the rest of the world will too. That isn't an excuse for lack of diversity in casting, there seems to be a number of indications that more diversity in casts won't have a negative effect at the box office, but it is less certain whether non-White movies will enjoy the same success. So Hollywood relies on its white stars to carry films as a hedge to insure their investments since it works.
With anime it isn't entirely different in some regards, with a number of works being set in Japan and referencing it, but where the character design is anime neutral, non-specific background and national origin, other than very few black characters being present. In part, I suspect this too is too maintain their audiences in different parts of the world and is in another way influenced by the idea of it representing wider culture than just Japan even if the setting is there, just as US movies set in New York aren't necessarily UScentric in their intentions, even if they are in their prejudices.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:30 AM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
At least they aren't any Tachikoma spider tanks that talk like children and keep hounding Batou for natural oil.
Love the Tachikoma and consider them a vital part of GitS and vital to exploring Batou's character.
posted by juiceCake at 6:42 AM on November 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
Love the Tachikoma and consider them a vital part of GitS and vital to exploring Batou's character.
posted by juiceCake at 6:42 AM on November 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
This kind of makes sense if it's based on the 1995 film, which it seems to be. The city the 1995 film was set in was based on Hong Kong, and not many of the main characters look at all Japanese even if they have the same names as they do in the manga (compare the film versions of Kusanagi and Batou with the manga versions, in particular). I'm not sure why Mamoru Oshii did this but it was obviously a deliberate decision to detach the story from its original setting.
If anything, it's the parts of the new film that are explicit references to Japan (like those Geisha robots and the Blade Runner-style cityscape) that are likely to be the worst, judging by the trailer, although having a Japanese cyborg with a mass-produced European face policing future Hong Kong was never without its problems either.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 7:07 AM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
If anything, it's the parts of the new film that are explicit references to Japan (like those Geisha robots and the Blade Runner-style cityscape) that are likely to be the worst, judging by the trailer, although having a Japanese cyborg with a mass-produced European face policing future Hong Kong was never without its problems either.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 7:07 AM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
What i get from the trailer is that they're going to steal every good action scenes from the anime, and remove every philosophical aspect of it and replace it by a vaguely Bourne-like plot about memory and identity.
QFT.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:36 AM on November 14, 2016
QFT.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:36 AM on November 14, 2016
Beat me to it. The geisha imagery could easily be from the sequel movie, Innocence (which wasn't very good, but hey, it's something) but making it about the Major's secret origins and Section 9 being Not What It Appears is very close to the exact opposite of what I want from Ghost in the Shell.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:07 AM on November 14, 2016
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:07 AM on November 14, 2016
I've seen the first Ghost in the Shell anime and read the manga and frankly, they weren't very good stories. Not bad, but not very good.
It looks like the movie while have a tighter plot and that can only help things.
The imagery was nice, but nothing Earth shatteringly wow. Well, besides ScarJo, but that's usual.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:09 AM on November 14, 2016
It looks like the movie while have a tighter plot and that can only help things.
The imagery was nice, but nothing Earth shatteringly wow. Well, besides ScarJo, but that's usual.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:09 AM on November 14, 2016
Maybe Motoko has amnesia and thinks she's white, but when she learns her true past she fires Scarlett Johansson.
posted by grobstein at 9:29 AM on November 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by grobstein at 9:29 AM on November 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
>making it about the Major's secret origins and Section 9 being Not What It Appears is very close to the exact opposite of what I want from Ghost in the Shell
I've read the manga, both movies, the tv show and the mini series and – if I had to boil the many GiTS adaptations down, I'd say it pretty much is 100% about:
- if we can replace our bodies and consciousness is fickle, what is being human about, really?
- how the exercise of power neccesarily corrupts or compromises your values/humanity but may or may not be necessary for the greater good, whatever that is
- dope ass fight scenes with cyborg gun play
so I'm curious as to how your experience differs!
posted by pmv at 9:35 AM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've read the manga, both movies, the tv show and the mini series and – if I had to boil the many GiTS adaptations down, I'd say it pretty much is 100% about:
- if we can replace our bodies and consciousness is fickle, what is being human about, really?
- how the exercise of power neccesarily corrupts or compromises your values/humanity but may or may not be necessary for the greater good, whatever that is
- dope ass fight scenes with cyborg gun play
so I'm curious as to how your experience differs!
posted by pmv at 9:35 AM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
It is pretty damn shameful that an American production that seeks to cast American talent (not just caucasian, based on the trailer) doesn't seem to have Asian-American actors as well. From a practical standpoint, Hollywood could definitely stand to add more variety when appropriate, if anything so it could create positive feedback loops to lead to more minority representation. If they're just going to randomly Americanize Japan in a weird reverse of The Man in the High Castle, as if the occupation never ended, might as well get some As-Ams as well.
That said, I'm not too worked out about this because I don't think this movie is going to do that well, it looks cool but it don't think it'll be able to rise up above "slick, but story-wise empty, action film." I'm betting it doesn't make enough to encourage the studios into trying to racebend Akira again.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:21 AM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
That said, I'm not too worked out about this because I don't think this movie is going to do that well, it looks cool but it don't think it'll be able to rise up above "slick, but story-wise empty, action film." I'm betting it doesn't make enough to encourage the studios into trying to racebend Akira again.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:21 AM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I totally agree with that summary, pmv, but one of the things I really love about GitS is that points one and two are kept distinct -- the rise of cybernetics and concomitant blurring of the line between human and AI are just part of the setting, and not part of some shadowy agenda or grand conspiracy. Having those two elements exist independent of each other makes it feel more like an organic world. And in particular it makes the "what's a human now?" theme more powerful because it's never a plot point that the existence of cyborgs is bad, or that the people being converted from human to cybernetic are victims -- it's just a fact of the setting.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:07 PM on November 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:07 PM on November 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am also of the opinion that GitS is a Japanese story, set in a future Japan. Aramaki, Saito, Kusanagi, Togusa, Ishikawa these are all Japanese surnames.
I saw the Q&A video from the press event and they explained that Kitano 'Beat' Takeshi couldn't do the English lines well enough, so he is speaking Japanese, and the rest are speaking English, which should be interesting. I think that will give the film a bit of Japanese flavor depending on how much screen time Kitano gets.
It is interesting that they've gotten Oshii and Kenji Kawai on board. That said, Ollie Barder at Forbes points out that this new production has no obvious support by Shirow Masamune, so that's a big hole, imo.
I think if Sanders is mashing up various parts of the GitS universe into a new movie, that's really not that interesting. Maybe the only benefit will be new interest in the original material, the manga, the anime, etc.
I think Japanese film-makers have yet to make a big cross-over success, and this Hollywood-hybrid effort also looks to be less than the anime effort. Perhaps this is a culture gulf that can't yet be crossed effectively.
posted by gen at 8:46 PM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I saw the Q&A video from the press event and they explained that Kitano 'Beat' Takeshi couldn't do the English lines well enough, so he is speaking Japanese, and the rest are speaking English, which should be interesting. I think that will give the film a bit of Japanese flavor depending on how much screen time Kitano gets.
It is interesting that they've gotten Oshii and Kenji Kawai on board. That said, Ollie Barder at Forbes points out that this new production has no obvious support by Shirow Masamune, so that's a big hole, imo.
I think if Sanders is mashing up various parts of the GitS universe into a new movie, that's really not that interesting. Maybe the only benefit will be new interest in the original material, the manga, the anime, etc.
I think Japanese film-makers have yet to make a big cross-over success, and this Hollywood-hybrid effort also looks to be less than the anime effort. Perhaps this is a culture gulf that can't yet be crossed effectively.
posted by gen at 8:46 PM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
... the trailer felt like it was for clueless fanfic of the original. Guess I'll be passing on it, barring some great word of mouth after its release.
posted by mordax at 11:27 PM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mordax at 11:27 PM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Ghost in the Shell soundtrack is such a big part of why the original movie was so compelling. Standalone Complex has a better story, but the soundtrack can't compare.
One of the reasons the music is so compelling is that the composer (Kawai Kenji) took inspiration from both Bulgarian and Japanese folk music. It sounds "Japanese," but it's not just straight Japanese folk music that's been jazzed up for a soundtrack. There's an otherworldliness to it.
I had misremembered; I thought he had actually used a Bulgarian choir, but according to Wikipedia he used Japanese singers. It reminds me a lot of the collaborations between Angelite & Huun-Hur-Tu, though, which is worth looking into for anyone who likes the music.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:59 AM on November 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
One of the reasons the music is so compelling is that the composer (Kawai Kenji) took inspiration from both Bulgarian and Japanese folk music. It sounds "Japanese," but it's not just straight Japanese folk music that's been jazzed up for a soundtrack. There's an otherworldliness to it.
I had misremembered; I thought he had actually used a Bulgarian choir, but according to Wikipedia he used Japanese singers. It reminds me a lot of the collaborations between Angelite & Huun-Hur-Tu, though, which is worth looking into for anyone who likes the music.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:59 AM on November 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oshii's GitS is by far the best representation of the franchise. He asks his audience to sit back and watch someone go completely through an existential crisis while allowing the plot to dovetail and push forward to a conclusion. Not a lot of writers/directors are that brave with their stories. He took some good ideas and superficial characters from Shirow "crotch shot" Masamune and turned them into something deeply introspective and thematically great.
I might be biased because Oshii's GitS is one of my favorite movies and one of the only ones that I constantly return to and rewatch. Which I have done enough times that I could probably talk about it for hours.
That said the trailer looks good to me and I'm looking forward to the movie.
posted by P.o.B. at 8:04 AM on November 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
I might be biased because Oshii's GitS is one of my favorite movies and one of the only ones that I constantly return to and rewatch. Which I have done enough times that I could probably talk about it for hours.
That said the trailer looks good to me and I'm looking forward to the movie.
posted by P.o.B. at 8:04 AM on November 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
I said it before and I'll say it again:
The original Ghost in the Shell movie was probably the least interesting of any of the GITS productions ever made. So they chose to do literally the worst possible one. Hollywood: figures.
posted by some loser at 10:06 AM on November 15, 2016
The original Ghost in the Shell movie was probably the least interesting of any of the GITS productions ever made. So they chose to do literally the worst possible one. Hollywood: figures.
posted by some loser at 10:06 AM on November 15, 2016
Quoting various parties:
> What do you mean, "at least"? The Tachikoma sentience arc is one of the most interesting bits of season one.
The arc was very interesting, but the Tachikomas graduated from cute to annoying for me at some point. Also, it would be a shameful thing if they attempted to replicate their arc in a two-hour movie, especially if they were the C-plot to more action-ready Section 9 stuff.
> I am also of the opinion that GitS is a Japanese story, set in a future Japan. Aramaki, Saito, Kusanagi, Togusa, Ishikawa these are all Japanese surnames.
Stand Alone Complex chopped a lot of wood in establishing the future history of the GitS world. Section 9 is stationed in the fictional port city of Niihama ("new port") the capital of Niihama prefecture, which was temporarily but no longer capital of Japan following a limited nuclear exchange between first world powers in WW3. They are undoubtedly in Japan.
> The original Ghost in the Shell movie was probably the least interesting of any of the GITS productions ever made. So they chose to do literally the worst possible one.
Least interesting, and most stylish. A natural choice for the wrong sort of reason.
posted by Sunburnt at 10:49 AM on November 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
> What do you mean, "at least"? The Tachikoma sentience arc is one of the most interesting bits of season one.
The arc was very interesting, but the Tachikomas graduated from cute to annoying for me at some point. Also, it would be a shameful thing if they attempted to replicate their arc in a two-hour movie, especially if they were the C-plot to more action-ready Section 9 stuff.
> I am also of the opinion that GitS is a Japanese story, set in a future Japan. Aramaki, Saito, Kusanagi, Togusa, Ishikawa these are all Japanese surnames.
Stand Alone Complex chopped a lot of wood in establishing the future history of the GitS world. Section 9 is stationed in the fictional port city of Niihama ("new port") the capital of Niihama prefecture, which was temporarily but no longer capital of Japan following a limited nuclear exchange between first world powers in WW3. They are undoubtedly in Japan.
> The original Ghost in the Shell movie was probably the least interesting of any of the GITS productions ever made. So they chose to do literally the worst possible one.
Least interesting, and most stylish. A natural choice for the wrong sort of reason.
posted by Sunburnt at 10:49 AM on November 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
Meh. Oshii's Ghost in the Shell is far more complex than any of the episodic stuff. It takes a little bit of thought to understand what's going on, but Oshii actually engages the audience in Kusanagi's actions and thoughts. If you're into watching her punch people in a bathing suit, looking cool wearing a trench coat, or get caught up in seeing her robot nudity than you've missed far more than you've seen.
posted by P.o.B. at 2:26 PM on November 15, 2016
posted by P.o.B. at 2:26 PM on November 15, 2016
> They are undoubtedly in Japan.
Oh, and I should add that because the Major is 100% prosthetic, she can look like whatever she wants. She has even hinted to Batou that she might not have been a woman had she had a natural upbringing, but she does like the effect it has on discomfiting those she has conflict with.
posted by Sunburnt at 2:27 PM on November 15, 2016
Oh, and I should add that because the Major is 100% prosthetic, she can look like whatever she wants. She has even hinted to Batou that she might not have been a woman had she had a natural upbringing, but she does like the effect it has on discomfiting those she has conflict with.
posted by Sunburnt at 2:27 PM on November 15, 2016
Major is 100% prosthetic
One of my favorite feminist critiques of the original GitS film I've read starts off with the line "There are no woman in this film."
The idea that she is completely fabricated is central to Kusanagi's character. For one, she doesn't really know if she's actually even a person. Secondly, she doesn't even own her own body. I think that would create a couple of questions for anyone.
posted by P.o.B. at 3:03 PM on November 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
One of my favorite feminist critiques of the original GitS film I've read starts off with the line "There are no woman in this film."
The idea that she is completely fabricated is central to Kusanagi's character. For one, she doesn't really know if she's actually even a person. Secondly, she doesn't even own her own body. I think that would create a couple of questions for anyone.
posted by P.o.B. at 3:03 PM on November 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
@Deoridhe: wtf? You're saying you like GitS and the dynamic ... but let's change it all? WTF? Saying what you say, you cannot possibly be against the whitwashing, as you seemingly don't care if everything else in the team dynamic gets changed.
I love the series, own the media, etc... but that doesn't mean I can't critique it for it's weaknesses. It's very much a Seinen setup, and I can adore the Major while wishing she wasn't a Smurfette and wishing I wasn't looking at her crotch every five pages (in the manga; they drop a lot of that fanservice in the movies and SAC). It's not like Stand Alone Complex didn't mess with Masamune's original anyway, and making it more gender balanced would potentially give the rest of the team more to do. While you're re-imagining a fascinating property, stepping up the diversity and dropping even more of the sexism (the manga is much worse, I'll admit) is worth a solid look. Besides, making the team more gender balanced changes nothing about the underlying themes of authority, identity, and individuality.
Being a woman who interacts with media created by men for other men and meant to specifically exclude me means love is always paired with critique. I experience it simultaneously as subject and object and it requires the double consciousness which comes with that.
I might be biased because Oshii's GitS is one of my favorite movies and one of the only ones that I constantly return to and rewatch. Which I have done enough times that I could probably talk about it for hours.
I fell in love with GitS because of Oshii but I have to admit the manga (particularly the third, after the fifth re-read or so) is really my jam, and I adore SAC. I find the philosophy of the movie much less compelling now in comparison to the more complicated nests they came up with in SAC and how it commented on how individuals act and react and how that can cascade. Its one I do rewatch semi-regularly, though, and is high on my list of favorite properties.
For one, she doesn't really know if she's actually even a person. Secondly, she doesn't even own her own body. I think that would create a couple of questions for anyone.
I've long wondered what a female-run production team would do with it. Like, one of the pieces said but never acted on from the manga is that Kusanagi deliberately looks like a generic, off the shelf cyborg. There should be thousands of her running around; she should run into people who look exactly like her all of the time, but she never does. Another piece is the whole relationship with her body since, as you say, she doesn't actually own it and can purchase a new one when the old one breaks. The phenomena of entirely female service robots is another interesting area for exploration - a lot of the titillation from the manga is removed (no rooms full of mostly naked lounging women), but the fact that all of the service robots are attractive women is unremaked on.
I disagree that there's any evidence she's fabricated, though. She brings it up as a fear when talking to her lover because she can't see her own brain, but her encased brain is shown in all of the media properties and is treated as if it is "her" until she "mates" with the Puppetmaster and sends copies of herself out into the world (bringing us to the third manga and a Motoko isotope). SAC establishes her origin pretty clearly as well, though obviously we can argue canon for a while, as well as the fact she remembers it all very clearly.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:55 AM on November 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
I love the series, own the media, etc... but that doesn't mean I can't critique it for it's weaknesses. It's very much a Seinen setup, and I can adore the Major while wishing she wasn't a Smurfette and wishing I wasn't looking at her crotch every five pages (in the manga; they drop a lot of that fanservice in the movies and SAC). It's not like Stand Alone Complex didn't mess with Masamune's original anyway, and making it more gender balanced would potentially give the rest of the team more to do. While you're re-imagining a fascinating property, stepping up the diversity and dropping even more of the sexism (the manga is much worse, I'll admit) is worth a solid look. Besides, making the team more gender balanced changes nothing about the underlying themes of authority, identity, and individuality.
Being a woman who interacts with media created by men for other men and meant to specifically exclude me means love is always paired with critique. I experience it simultaneously as subject and object and it requires the double consciousness which comes with that.
I might be biased because Oshii's GitS is one of my favorite movies and one of the only ones that I constantly return to and rewatch. Which I have done enough times that I could probably talk about it for hours.
I fell in love with GitS because of Oshii but I have to admit the manga (particularly the third, after the fifth re-read or so) is really my jam, and I adore SAC. I find the philosophy of the movie much less compelling now in comparison to the more complicated nests they came up with in SAC and how it commented on how individuals act and react and how that can cascade. Its one I do rewatch semi-regularly, though, and is high on my list of favorite properties.
For one, she doesn't really know if she's actually even a person. Secondly, she doesn't even own her own body. I think that would create a couple of questions for anyone.
I've long wondered what a female-run production team would do with it. Like, one of the pieces said but never acted on from the manga is that Kusanagi deliberately looks like a generic, off the shelf cyborg. There should be thousands of her running around; she should run into people who look exactly like her all of the time, but she never does. Another piece is the whole relationship with her body since, as you say, she doesn't actually own it and can purchase a new one when the old one breaks. The phenomena of entirely female service robots is another interesting area for exploration - a lot of the titillation from the manga is removed (no rooms full of mostly naked lounging women), but the fact that all of the service robots are attractive women is unremaked on.
I disagree that there's any evidence she's fabricated, though. She brings it up as a fear when talking to her lover because she can't see her own brain, but her encased brain is shown in all of the media properties and is treated as if it is "her" until she "mates" with the Puppetmaster and sends copies of herself out into the world (bringing us to the third manga and a Motoko isotope). SAC establishes her origin pretty clearly as well, though obviously we can argue canon for a while, as well as the fact she remembers it all very clearly.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:55 AM on November 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Besides, making the team more gender balanced changes nothing about the underlying themes of authority, identity, and individuality.
I would only agree with this due to the fact that everytime it is remade these aspects do change. If you're saying you would go back and change it in all the franchises then I would disagree, as I believe the genders do make up a significant thematic aspect. Batou, for one, is a personification of machismo/maleness and identity takes on an importance through his interactions with Kusanagi in Oshii's GitS.
In the first film Kusanagi does end up seeing herself in passing at one point, but I believe Oshii used her image & reflections constantly appearing to aid in her need to understand herself and question her dissociation.
There really isn't any evidence that she isn't fabricated though, and I'm pretty sure her actual brain matter, besides the encasement, is never shown. IIRC Kusanagi actually has a cyborg brain, making her completely robotic besides her memories and ghost. Oshii went to great lengths to make sure Kusanagi acted robotic or doll-like to emphasize her lack of humanness. Personally, I see this as a way Oshii could reduce Kusanagi into simple landmarks that the audience uses as a reason to attach what they want to see. On the flip side of that I always believe the shelling scene is a dream as the next scene has her wake up.
posted by P.o.B. at 10:38 AM on November 16, 2016
I would only agree with this due to the fact that everytime it is remade these aspects do change. If you're saying you would go back and change it in all the franchises then I would disagree, as I believe the genders do make up a significant thematic aspect. Batou, for one, is a personification of machismo/maleness and identity takes on an importance through his interactions with Kusanagi in Oshii's GitS.
In the first film Kusanagi does end up seeing herself in passing at one point, but I believe Oshii used her image & reflections constantly appearing to aid in her need to understand herself and question her dissociation.
There really isn't any evidence that she isn't fabricated though, and I'm pretty sure her actual brain matter, besides the encasement, is never shown. IIRC Kusanagi actually has a cyborg brain, making her completely robotic besides her memories and ghost. Oshii went to great lengths to make sure Kusanagi acted robotic or doll-like to emphasize her lack of humanness. Personally, I see this as a way Oshii could reduce Kusanagi into simple landmarks that the audience uses as a reason to attach what they want to see. On the flip side of that I always believe the shelling scene is a dream as the next scene has her wake up.
posted by P.o.B. at 10:38 AM on November 16, 2016
If you're saying you would go back and change it in all the franchises then I would disagree, as I believe the genders do make up a significant thematic aspect.
How on earth would I be able to do that?
Oshii went to great lengths to make sure Kusanagi acted robotic or doll-like to emphasize her lack of humanness. Personally, I see this as a way Oshii could reduce Kusanagi into simple landmarks that the audience uses as a reason to attach what they want to see.
I've experienced men turning me into simple landmarks for their life and then becoming offended when I irrationally continued being a person. It's always... interesting.
I understand what Oshii did and why so many men find it compelling, but he's plucking strings that don't exist within me and so my reaction is going to be different. His choices were an interesting deviation from the Masamune presentation of her, where she and her team was a lot more crude, and it was part of why I have mixed feelings about Oshii's deliberate objectification of her. Masamune had a mix of identification and objectification in how he dealt with her; as you said, Oshii made her much more of a cipher and object for his philosophical point of view, which meant hiding her subjectivity even further. Her motivations remain, enough for me to still be able to identify with her and not Batou or Togusa who are presented much more as audience surrogates, but I missed having the humanization of her interacting with her lovers, and the denouement of the movie is very different when it lacks her personal connection with Section 1 through her lover at the time.
Her having a variety of lovers of various genders also contextualized her interactions with the Puppetmaster, instead of making it seem like she was too detached for Batou's unrequited love; it makes it a choice she made instead of the inevitable reaction of not returning someone's romantic affections. I experience her embrace of the Puppetmaster not as the ultimate symbol of detachment from humanity but instead the ultimate expression of curiosity and a desire for unending life - an unending life we get some fragments of in the third manga. Part of what I find compelling about her is this willingness to jump off of a cliff, not knowing if she would be her at the end of it but willing to give up everything to experience the fall.
posted by Deoridhe at 4:35 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
How on earth would I be able to do that?
Oshii went to great lengths to make sure Kusanagi acted robotic or doll-like to emphasize her lack of humanness. Personally, I see this as a way Oshii could reduce Kusanagi into simple landmarks that the audience uses as a reason to attach what they want to see.
I've experienced men turning me into simple landmarks for their life and then becoming offended when I irrationally continued being a person. It's always... interesting.
I understand what Oshii did and why so many men find it compelling, but he's plucking strings that don't exist within me and so my reaction is going to be different. His choices were an interesting deviation from the Masamune presentation of her, where she and her team was a lot more crude, and it was part of why I have mixed feelings about Oshii's deliberate objectification of her. Masamune had a mix of identification and objectification in how he dealt with her; as you said, Oshii made her much more of a cipher and object for his philosophical point of view, which meant hiding her subjectivity even further. Her motivations remain, enough for me to still be able to identify with her and not Batou or Togusa who are presented much more as audience surrogates, but I missed having the humanization of her interacting with her lovers, and the denouement of the movie is very different when it lacks her personal connection with Section 1 through her lover at the time.
Her having a variety of lovers of various genders also contextualized her interactions with the Puppetmaster, instead of making it seem like she was too detached for Batou's unrequited love; it makes it a choice she made instead of the inevitable reaction of not returning someone's romantic affections. I experience her embrace of the Puppetmaster not as the ultimate symbol of detachment from humanity but instead the ultimate expression of curiosity and a desire for unending life - an unending life we get some fragments of in the third manga. Part of what I find compelling about her is this willingness to jump off of a cliff, not knowing if she would be her at the end of it but willing to give up everything to experience the fall.
posted by Deoridhe at 4:35 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't expect everybody to hold the same opinions I do, and I've read and talked with enough people to know it just isn't men who enjoy Oshii's GitS. I've read the manga, but tbh I can't really get into Massmune's stuff as his artistic output mainly consists of fetishizing and objectifying women. That said I would clearly label both of their GitS iterations as problematic. I don't see Oshii's deliberate objectifying of Kusanagi as objectification qua objectification, but because she literally is an object. The objectification and "land marking" happens on several levels throughout the film. The film literally starts with a computerized objectification of reality. Her dehumanizations isn't a ploy to play out philosophical ideas or simply a way to pose her revealingly, which Masamune's Major is keen to do. Kusanagi's wake up scene is one of the most simple and telling scenes for the whole film. The moment she opens her eyes, blinks, wipes away the eye boogers and then remembers she's just a robot is one of the most human things she does. Aside from the stroll through town. Consciousness arising out of interaction with the environment, the environment (over)growing and ultimately sublimatin. I consider that far more of a truer representation of someone inhabiting a wholly robotic body. I believe the idea of joining with puppet master is her way of regaining some sort of humanity that was much more human than playing waifu to Batou or cybersexing it up with various characters.
posted by P.o.B. at 8:01 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by P.o.B. at 8:01 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
That said I would clearly label both of their GitS iterations as problematic.
I'm confused why you are disagreeing with me, then, and repeatedly implying I don't like GitS. All I'm doing is expanding on the problematic aspects of GitS, which exists despite my love for it. If you want to go "yeah problematic" then focus just on what you love go for it - I'll be over here exploring the problematic areas and imagining how they could be improved.
posted by Deoridhe at 4:55 PM on November 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm confused why you are disagreeing with me, then, and repeatedly implying I don't like GitS. All I'm doing is expanding on the problematic aspects of GitS, which exists despite my love for it. If you want to go "yeah problematic" then focus just on what you love go for it - I'll be over here exploring the problematic areas and imagining how they could be improved.
posted by Deoridhe at 4:55 PM on November 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
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