True or False
December 22, 2016 11:19 AM Subscribe
2016: A Pop Quiz for White Women Who Think Black Women Should Be Nicer to Them in Conversations about Race
2014: White Women, Please Don't Expect Me to Wipe Away Your Tears (previously)
2013: Tears & Fears: White Women & Social Justice [PDF]
2011: White Fragility (previously)
2010: Stuff White People Do: rush to the aid of crying white instigators of racism, instead of the victims
2007: When White Women Cry: How White Women's Tears Oppress Women of Color [PDF]
2014: White Women, Please Don't Expect Me to Wipe Away Your Tears (previously)
2013: Tears & Fears: White Women & Social Justice [PDF]
2011: White Fragility (previously)
2010: Stuff White People Do: rush to the aid of crying white instigators of racism, instead of the victims
2007: When White Women Cry: How White Women's Tears Oppress Women of Color [PDF]
It does, though: False.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 11:49 AM on December 22, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by amnesia and magnets at 11:49 AM on December 22, 2016 [28 favorites]
True or False: Gender oppression is way worse than racial oppression.
This question has no good answer.
"False" also indicates disagreement with the premise.
posted by Etrigan at 11:49 AM on December 22, 2016 [5 favorites]
This question has no good answer.
"False" also indicates disagreement with the premise.
posted by Etrigan at 11:49 AM on December 22, 2016 [5 favorites]
But "False" does not indicate rejection of the premise. It's a whole "When did you stop beating your wife" trap.
posted by crush-onastick at 11:51 AM on December 22, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by crush-onastick at 11:51 AM on December 22, 2016 [8 favorites]
Who is Becky?
Well, that's my name. But really you should read this.
posted by rewil at 11:53 AM on December 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
Well, that's my name. But really you should read this.
posted by rewil at 11:53 AM on December 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
Who is Becky?
“Becky with the good hair.” of the Beyonce song “Sorry”
Some predictably white dude on Quora’s answer - this would epitomize the author’s point in including it.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:54 AM on December 22, 2016
“Becky with the good hair.” of the Beyonce song “Sorry”
Some predictably white dude on Quora’s answer - this would epitomize the author’s point in including it.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:54 AM on December 22, 2016
The answer is intersectionality!
posted by ChuraChura at 11:57 AM on December 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 11:57 AM on December 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
White women are saying "Becky is a slur."posted by amnesia and magnets at 12:02 PM on December 22, 2016 [18 favorites]
Y'all wrong. It's not a slur, but trust–I'm in your corner on this one, white women.
I hope and pray Becky does become a slur.
Becky is originally "omg Becky, look at her butt" from Baby got Back. Read the rest of the lyrics and it'll all make sense.
posted by fshgrl at 12:18 PM on December 22, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 12:18 PM on December 22, 2016 [8 favorites]
From White Women, Please Don't Expect Me to Wipe Away Your Tears:
White people (like me), really need to learn to sit with the unpleasant emotions that come with listening to and learning about the centuries of injustice that PoC have experienced in the land we now call the USA. It's not fun to contemplate how our ancestors and current society work to lift us up at the expense of PoC, but the lived experience of PoC indicates that it is way worse to actually experience the fruit of that poison tree, every day with little, if any, respite.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 12:29 PM on December 22, 2016 [22 favorites]
More commonly, we find ourselves trying to have discussions where we seem to be talking at, but never to, and certainly never with each other.Recently, I participated in some conversations where race was a central topic. One participant was Black and I something I saw repeatedly was this phenomenon, where they would talk about systemic racism, and then some (well-meaning, ostensibly progressive) white people would take that person's points as being personal attacks on them and their lives. It was frustrating to see others derail conversations in this manner.
White people (like me), really need to learn to sit with the unpleasant emotions that come with listening to and learning about the centuries of injustice that PoC have experienced in the land we now call the USA. It's not fun to contemplate how our ancestors and current society work to lift us up at the expense of PoC, but the lived experience of PoC indicates that it is way worse to actually experience the fruit of that poison tree, every day with little, if any, respite.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 12:29 PM on December 22, 2016 [22 favorites]
I like to think I'm in tune with pop culture, but the link between "OMG Becky" and "Becky with the good hair" just blew my mind.
posted by DrAstroZoom at 12:29 PM on December 22, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by DrAstroZoom at 12:29 PM on December 22, 2016 [14 favorites]
Gender oppression also encapsulates oppression against transgender people, nonconforming people, and intersex people. Pitting it against racial oppression as a dichotomy is a bad way to start conversation.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:35 PM on December 22, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:35 PM on December 22, 2016
Gender oppression also encapsulates oppression against transgender people, nonconforming people, and intersex people.
And when you consider that black (or brown) trans, nonconforming, and intersex people in general have to deal with an extra axis of oppression as compared to white trans, nonconforming, and intersex people, you'll get a sneak peak at that whole intersectionality thing.
I mean, no one wins in a game of I Am More Oppressed Than Thou, but the point is that privilege comes in a lot of different forms and if the goal is equality it's important to not blind yourself to that (even though I think it's very human to do so).
posted by sparklemotion at 12:55 PM on December 22, 2016 [7 favorites]
And when you consider that black (or brown) trans, nonconforming, and intersex people in general have to deal with an extra axis of oppression as compared to white trans, nonconforming, and intersex people, you'll get a sneak peak at that whole intersectionality thing.
I mean, no one wins in a game of I Am More Oppressed Than Thou, but the point is that privilege comes in a lot of different forms and if the goal is equality it's important to not blind yourself to that (even though I think it's very human to do so).
posted by sparklemotion at 12:55 PM on December 22, 2016 [7 favorites]
The only issue I have with "Becky" is that, as a short form of "Rebecca", it's a pretty common Jewish name. That's such a subtle undercurrent though, that the overall shorthand still works pretty well.
posted by Karmakaze at 12:56 PM on December 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Karmakaze at 12:56 PM on December 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
White people (like me), really need to learn to sit with the unpleasant emotions that come with listening to and learning about the centuries of injustice that PoC have experienced in the land we now call the USA
This. This this this. It's quite literally the least we can do.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:29 PM on December 22, 2016 [19 favorites]
This. This this this. It's quite literally the least we can do.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:29 PM on December 22, 2016 [19 favorites]
This is so good.
Those who are taking issue with the first item: try to get past your initial reaction and really, really listen to what this piece is saying. It's too good to just completely shut down on after the first line because you're offended by what you think it's saying. The items are all things that would be said by the titular "white woman who thinks black women should be nicer to her in conversations about race." It's not the black woman who's tried immediately to weigh one kind of oppression against the other. It's that white woman, the one the article is about.
posted by sunset in snow country at 2:01 PM on December 22, 2016 [12 favorites]
Those who are taking issue with the first item: try to get past your initial reaction and really, really listen to what this piece is saying. It's too good to just completely shut down on after the first line because you're offended by what you think it's saying. The items are all things that would be said by the titular "white woman who thinks black women should be nicer to her in conversations about race." It's not the black woman who's tried immediately to weigh one kind of oppression against the other. It's that white woman, the one the article is about.
posted by sunset in snow country at 2:01 PM on December 22, 2016 [12 favorites]
Is the frustration with white women, specifically, because white men aren't engaging in conversations with black women at all, or is there something else there?
posted by metasarah at 2:06 PM on December 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by metasarah at 2:06 PM on December 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you read the article, you'll see that a lot of these things are coming out in conversations about feminism, where, yes, more women than men are engaging, which is as it should be. (Male feminists are great but women should be the ones steering these conversations.) So I wouldn't frame it as "at least the white women are engaging" - a lot of them are hoping not to engage and trying to shut down black women who do enter these conversations and attempt to speak up for their own interests.
posted by sunset in snow country at 2:21 PM on December 22, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by sunset in snow country at 2:21 PM on December 22, 2016 [9 favorites]
It is because White Feminism has a long history of prioritizing gains for any women over gains for all women, and in particular that has meant relying on the labor (intellectual, physical) of black women and then ignoring them when it comes time to reap the benefits of gains for women.
The linked articles give some great context.
posted by ChuraChura at 2:23 PM on December 22, 2016 [37 favorites]
The linked articles give some great context.
posted by ChuraChura at 2:23 PM on December 22, 2016 [37 favorites]
crush-onastick: "But "False" does not indicate rejection of the premise. It's a whole "When did you stop beating your wife" trap."
No, it's really not. "False" doesn't have to mean "false, racism is way worse" - it can mean "false, racism and sexism are equally horrific and deserving of our attention" or "false, it's a false equivalency and it makes no sense to say one is better or worse than the other" or "false, on many occasions they are the same thing".
I'll admit I'm not a big fan of the article - I think its audiences are "people who will agree with the whole thing anyway" and "people who won't engage with the content but will just get mad about it" - but the very fact that we're arguing over the first question here makes it all the more justified to include in an article like this.
(And, as a Jewish girl: all the Jewish Rebeccas I've known have gone by Becca or the unshortened Rebecca. I wouldn't associate "Becky" with being Jewish.)
posted by capricorn at 2:26 PM on December 22, 2016 [11 favorites]
No, it's really not. "False" doesn't have to mean "false, racism is way worse" - it can mean "false, racism and sexism are equally horrific and deserving of our attention" or "false, it's a false equivalency and it makes no sense to say one is better or worse than the other" or "false, on many occasions they are the same thing".
I'll admit I'm not a big fan of the article - I think its audiences are "people who will agree with the whole thing anyway" and "people who won't engage with the content but will just get mad about it" - but the very fact that we're arguing over the first question here makes it all the more justified to include in an article like this.
(And, as a Jewish girl: all the Jewish Rebeccas I've known have gone by Becca or the unshortened Rebecca. I wouldn't associate "Becky" with being Jewish.)
posted by capricorn at 2:26 PM on December 22, 2016 [11 favorites]
> Is the frustration with white women, specifically, because white men aren't engaging in conversations with black women at all, or is there something else there?
A very, very long history of something else there. Much of that "something else" is around white women crying (literally and figuratively) as a way to center their own emotions and response over those of the black women talking about race, feminism, how priorities are set in social justice movements, and their experiences with all of that. See the last link in the fpp for more.
posted by rtha at 2:28 PM on December 22, 2016 [6 favorites]
A very, very long history of something else there. Much of that "something else" is around white women crying (literally and figuratively) as a way to center their own emotions and response over those of the black women talking about race, feminism, how priorities are set in social justice movements, and their experiences with all of that. See the last link in the fpp for more.
posted by rtha at 2:28 PM on December 22, 2016 [6 favorites]
And just to add to that, on a broader scale: the reason that true/false question about sexism being worse than racism is in the article in the first place is because the founding tenet of White Feminism™ is the belief that "people of color are trying to convince me that racism is more important than sexism". Which is funny/sad because it so beautifully parallels the Men's Rights crowd and their "women are trying to convince me that women are better than men and should have more rights than men" bullshit strawman argument.
posted by capricorn at 2:34 PM on December 22, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by capricorn at 2:34 PM on December 22, 2016 [7 favorites]
White people (like me), really need to learn to sit with the unpleasant emotions that come with listening to and learning about the centuries of injustice that PoC have experienced in the land we now call the USA.
As a white male, learning to sit with those unpleasant emotions is something that my feminism and antiracism studies align on... But it's been a really interesting experience accompanying my wife as she sees how differently she fits into each.
posted by solotoro at 5:11 PM on December 22, 2016
As a white male, learning to sit with those unpleasant emotions is something that my feminism and antiracism studies align on... But it's been a really interesting experience accompanying my wife as she sees how differently she fits into each.
posted by solotoro at 5:11 PM on December 22, 2016
I love the passive aggressiveness of the first comment: "True or False: This white woman needed to hear that."
posted by sour cream at 1:14 AM on December 23, 2016
posted by sour cream at 1:14 AM on December 23, 2016
There's a lot of stuff here that I need to think about. I'm slowly learning - and I'll keep slowly learning for the rest of my life.
posted by sciencegeek at 2:59 AM on December 23, 2016
posted by sciencegeek at 2:59 AM on December 23, 2016
(Commenting because adding this as a favorite is not enough of a "yes, this is important" and "thank you." And now back to listening.)
posted by giraffe at 7:30 AM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by giraffe at 7:30 AM on December 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
We're pitting women against black people here, in the era of Donald F-ing Trump.
I'll likely get modded out or shouted down for having a differing opinion, but we're worse off by fighting about who has the right to be mad over which injustices were and are worse, instead of you know, worrying about the fact that on January 21, the US Justice Department is almost certain to completely stop going after cops and others who shoot unarmed black people dead in the street.
There's an elephant in the room, stomping and destroying everything in its path, and I'm going to pay attention to that, instead of squabbling with people who are on my side.
posted by cnc at 8:59 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'll likely get modded out or shouted down for having a differing opinion, but we're worse off by fighting about who has the right to be mad over which injustices were and are worse, instead of you know, worrying about the fact that on January 21, the US Justice Department is almost certain to completely stop going after cops and others who shoot unarmed black people dead in the street.
There's an elephant in the room, stomping and destroying everything in its path, and I'm going to pay attention to that, instead of squabbling with people who are on my side.
posted by cnc at 8:59 AM on December 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
There's an elephant in the room, stomping and destroying everything in its path, and I'm going to pay attention to that, instead of squabbling with people who are on my side.
You're not wrong at all. Unfortunately staying above such squabbling is often hard to disambiguate from disregarding concerns people consider legitimate, and that is a hard nut to crack. We need a charismatic leader, and we seem to not have one.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:38 AM on December 24, 2016
You're not wrong at all. Unfortunately staying above such squabbling is often hard to disambiguate from disregarding concerns people consider legitimate, and that is a hard nut to crack. We need a charismatic leader, and we seem to not have one.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:38 AM on December 24, 2016
We're pitting women against black people here, in the era of Donald F-ing Trump.
We need a charismatic leader, and we seem to not have one.
Who's "we"? Men? Democratic voters? MeFites?
If you are unfamiliar with how poorly white women and feminists have treated people and specifically women of color to such a degree that you feel comfortable dismissing the sentiments of these writers as "squabbling," here is another link to read. I'm not really in the mood to go do the work, but I would really, really recommend finding more information about the long and storied history of white women whining about how expressions of the concerns of women of color are nothing more than attempts to cause infighting and shift the spotlight away from The Real Important Goal of Feminism... which almost always just so happens to overlook the concerns of women of color.
Men do this to women all the time, too -- just as in their efforts to eradicate racism, Black women were and are accused by white women of sowing divisiveness and discord in the women's liberation movement, in their efforts to eradicate misogyny, they were and are accused by Black men of sowing divisiveness and discord within the Black liberation movement.
The linked pieces and comments here have nothing to do with pitting anyone against anyone else, except insofar as white women are known for doing it constantly, and everything to do with America's culturally dominant (white supremacist) version of feminism, which continues to insist that it's more important to help white women feel better about racism than it is to put any kind of effort into helping women of color feel safe, welcome, or even respected as human beings. Many, many women of color do not consider white women as being "on [their] side" at all, and they are categorically not obligated to do so for any reason, let alone in the name of political unity.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 12:14 PM on December 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
We need a charismatic leader, and we seem to not have one.
Who's "we"? Men? Democratic voters? MeFites?
If you are unfamiliar with how poorly white women and feminists have treated people and specifically women of color to such a degree that you feel comfortable dismissing the sentiments of these writers as "squabbling," here is another link to read. I'm not really in the mood to go do the work, but I would really, really recommend finding more information about the long and storied history of white women whining about how expressions of the concerns of women of color are nothing more than attempts to cause infighting and shift the spotlight away from The Real Important Goal of Feminism... which almost always just so happens to overlook the concerns of women of color.
Men do this to women all the time, too -- just as in their efforts to eradicate racism, Black women were and are accused by white women of sowing divisiveness and discord in the women's liberation movement, in their efforts to eradicate misogyny, they were and are accused by Black men of sowing divisiveness and discord within the Black liberation movement.
The linked pieces and comments here have nothing to do with pitting anyone against anyone else, except insofar as white women are known for doing it constantly, and everything to do with America's culturally dominant (white supremacist) version of feminism, which continues to insist that it's more important to help white women feel better about racism than it is to put any kind of effort into helping women of color feel safe, welcome, or even respected as human beings. Many, many women of color do not consider white women as being "on [their] side" at all, and they are categorically not obligated to do so for any reason, let alone in the name of political unity.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 12:14 PM on December 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
Who's "we"? Men? Democratic voters? MeFites?
Democratic voters, in this case.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:35 PM on December 24, 2016
Democratic voters, in this case.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:35 PM on December 24, 2016
We're pitting women against black people here, in the era of Donald F-ing Trump.
What is this framing where women are somehow not also black?
posted by rtha at 1:38 PM on December 24, 2016 [15 favorites]
What is this framing where women are somehow not also black?
posted by rtha at 1:38 PM on December 24, 2016 [15 favorites]
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This question has no good answer.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:43 AM on December 22, 2016 [8 favorites]