Antidisestablishmentarianism lost today
January 1, 2017 5:00 PM Subscribe
On January 1, 2017, Norway ceased to be one of the remaining small handful of European countries with a state church, with the formal disestablishment of the Church of Norway (Lutheran). Norway became Lutheran in the 1530s when Denmark, which then ruled Norwegian territory, broke with the Holy See.
"When 2016 becomes 2017, Norway will formalize the separation of church and state that was set in motion eight years ago by parliament. As of January 1st, the Nordic nation’s 1,250 priests and bishops will no longer be government officials appointed by the king. And the Church of Norway will no longer be an agency of the state, but an independent business. [...] [Even after the split,] the Church of Norway is almost solely funded by the government, that particular provisions are attached to the church in legislation and that the Church is still responsible for funerals in most places throughout the country. "
When 73% of Norwegians are still members of the Church of Norway, only 3% attend weekly services, making Norway one of the most secular countries in Europe. (In Europe, it's common for various churches to receive a share of tax revenues set aside for religious bodies in proportion to their membership, which creates a strong incentive for maintaining official membership rolls.)
A short history of the Church of Norway, which mentions reform movements that pushed the move towards separation, but leaves out Vidkun Quisling's collaborator government under Hitler, which resulted in strenuous church opposition and electoral collapse (which turned out not to matter with a dictator in place) when it attempted to Nazi-ize churches and schools and to deport Norwegian Jews, and created a permanent distrust of government management of church affairs. The King will still be required to be a member of the Church of Norway, but will no longer have any authority over it; the royal family are the only persons exempted from the Norwegian Constitution's decree of freedom of religion.
Constitutional changes. Background documents.
"When 2016 becomes 2017, Norway will formalize the separation of church and state that was set in motion eight years ago by parliament. As of January 1st, the Nordic nation’s 1,250 priests and bishops will no longer be government officials appointed by the king. And the Church of Norway will no longer be an agency of the state, but an independent business. [...] [Even after the split,] the Church of Norway is almost solely funded by the government, that particular provisions are attached to the church in legislation and that the Church is still responsible for funerals in most places throughout the country. "
When 73% of Norwegians are still members of the Church of Norway, only 3% attend weekly services, making Norway one of the most secular countries in Europe. (In Europe, it's common for various churches to receive a share of tax revenues set aside for religious bodies in proportion to their membership, which creates a strong incentive for maintaining official membership rolls.)
A short history of the Church of Norway, which mentions reform movements that pushed the move towards separation, but leaves out Vidkun Quisling's collaborator government under Hitler, which resulted in strenuous church opposition and electoral collapse (which turned out not to matter with a dictator in place) when it attempted to Nazi-ize churches and schools and to deport Norwegian Jews, and created a permanent distrust of government management of church affairs. The King will still be required to be a member of the Church of Norway, but will no longer have any authority over it; the royal family are the only persons exempted from the Norwegian Constitution's decree of freedom of religion.
Constitutional changes. Background documents.
I just wanted to use antidisestablishmentarianism in a sentence.
It has just occurred to me that even though I'm a Victorianist who writes about religious issues, I have never yet had the occasion to use antidisestablishmentarianism in any of my scholarship. Finally, a goal for 2017!
posted by thomas j wise at 5:17 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
It has just occurred to me that even though I'm a Victorianist who writes about religious issues, I have never yet had the occasion to use antidisestablishmentarianism in any of my scholarship. Finally, a goal for 2017!
posted by thomas j wise at 5:17 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
Meanwhile, supercalifragilist... nevermind.
Well done Eyebrows. We salute you.
posted by adept256 at 5:20 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Well done Eyebrows. We salute you.
posted by adept256 at 5:20 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Norwegian Humanist Association's criticisms seem pretty valid to me: the country's constitution now defines a specific church as the "national church", provides for its support, and specifies its theological position ("an Evangelical-Lutheran church"). The Head of State will continue to necessarily be a member of the church (although no longer its head ex-officio) and apparently it will continue to have a special role in legislation, too. It's still effectively an established church; it just enjoys greater autonomy.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:41 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:41 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm not an antidisestablishmentarian myself, but I do see the value in a national Church. Yes, the value is outweighed by the dangers of entangling religion in politics, but I think there's something beautiful about, say, the Church of England's commitment to having a presence in every community. There come times when even the most deeply committed secularist may need a place to go and gather -- to grieve communally at the loss of a loved one, to celebrate a marriage, to speak to a wise and experienced priest about a problem. Religion can be good -- at its best, it honors its (probable) etymological root, re + ligare, "to reconnect" (related to words like 'ligament').
I do believe, as a religious person myself, that religion did (and still does, in many places) function to bind a community together, not just in shared beliefs but in shared rituals, communal marking of time and special events. And that's a thing we've lost in the modern world, for better and for worse.* I'm a better person for the fact that I have friends from the church communities I've been a part of whom I otherwise would likely never have met. We naturally cocoon ourselves, segregated out by age, class, and race. And I've found that the Church is one of the few places left where I can have relationships with people who are postal workers, professors or Uber drivers; with retirees, young adults and children.
A phrase, of course, derived from the marriage vows in the Book of Common Prayer.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:10 PM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
I do believe, as a religious person myself, that religion did (and still does, in many places) function to bind a community together, not just in shared beliefs but in shared rituals, communal marking of time and special events. And that's a thing we've lost in the modern world, for better and for worse.* I'm a better person for the fact that I have friends from the church communities I've been a part of whom I otherwise would likely never have met. We naturally cocoon ourselves, segregated out by age, class, and race. And I've found that the Church is one of the few places left where I can have relationships with people who are postal workers, professors or Uber drivers; with retirees, young adults and children.
A phrase, of course, derived from the marriage vows in the Book of Common Prayer.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:10 PM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
I grew up loving the word "antidisestablishmentarianism" despite not understanding its meaning and resenting the made-up-by-a-Disney-songwriter word "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" for usurping its "longest word" status. Well, Wikipedia has listed "pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis" as 'the longest word in a major dictionary', although it does list some longer. I'm actually rather fond of "floccinaucinihilipilification", meaning "the act or habit of describing or regarding something as unimportant, of having no value or being worthless", which I certainly can appreciate.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:17 PM on January 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:17 PM on January 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
here come times when even the most deeply committed secularist may need a place to go and gather -- to grieve communally at the loss of a loved one, to celebrate a marriage, to speak to a wise and experienced priest about a problem.
As an atheist, I am baffled by your conflation of the need for a location to celebrate events with the utility of a priest or church.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 6:22 PM on January 1, 2017 [27 favorites]
As an atheist, I am baffled by your conflation of the need for a location to celebrate events with the utility of a priest or church.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 6:22 PM on January 1, 2017 [27 favorites]
resenting the made-up-by-a-Disney-songwriter word "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious"
Would you resent it less if you learned that it wasn't made up by Disney? (it's much older than the movie, the Sherman brothers picked it up when they were kids)
posted by effbot at 6:31 PM on January 1, 2017
Would you resent it less if you learned that it wasn't made up by Disney? (it's much older than the movie, the Sherman brothers picked it up when they were kids)
posted by effbot at 6:31 PM on January 1, 2017
Finally, my 7 Year Bitch EP can serve as a soundtrack for reading the news.
posted by intermod at 6:37 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by intermod at 6:37 PM on January 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Sure, you can replace priest with bartender or DJ and leave religion out of it. If there's a tragedy in my community, I don't want the state to come and gather us around someone that'll say Gandalf still loves us. That excludes us that don't believe in the gospel of Tolkien.
I used 'fustian' in a book report when I was a kid. Wait I'll save you a click:
2. Pretentious speech or writing; pompous language.
I thought it was a super clever three way pun my English teacher would appreciate, but he drew a red line through it. I complained and he showed me that it wasn't in his pocket dictionary. But it was in the OED when I checked. I'm still bitter about that.
posted by adept256 at 6:44 PM on January 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
I used 'fustian' in a book report when I was a kid. Wait I'll save you a click:
2. Pretentious speech or writing; pompous language.
I thought it was a super clever three way pun my English teacher would appreciate, but he drew a red line through it. I complained and he showed me that it wasn't in his pocket dictionary. But it was in the OED when I checked. I'm still bitter about that.
posted by adept256 at 6:44 PM on January 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
"Antidisestablishmentarianism" was the first super long word I was unreasonably proud of being able to spell. Seriously, preening and everything; I might have been eight at the time.
It didn't occur to me to wonder until this exact moment what it actually meant.
There's a lesson in there somewhere that my eight year old self could probably have used.
posted by mhoye at 6:50 PM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
It didn't occur to me to wonder until this exact moment what it actually meant.
There's a lesson in there somewhere that my eight year old self could probably have used.
posted by mhoye at 6:50 PM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
There come times when even the most deeply committed secularist may need a place to go and gather -- to grieve communally at the loss of a loved one, to celebrate a marriage, to speak to a wise and experienced priest about a problem.I'm Jewish, so I can attest to the fact that my ancestors managed to do all these things for millennia without ever, even once, being members of an established church.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:05 PM on January 1, 2017 [34 favorites]
There come times when even the most deeply committed secularist may need a place to go and gather -- to grieve communally at the loss of a loved one, to celebrate a marriage, to speak to a wise and experienced priest about a problem.
Thank goodness none of this requires having a state church, or is even improved by it.
posted by Lexica at 7:27 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
Thank goodness none of this requires having a state church, or is even improved by it.
posted by Lexica at 7:27 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
As an atheist, I am baffled by your conflation of the need for a location to celebrate events with the utility of a priest or church.
Certainly; but "location" is not quite the same thing as "place", and I think there's an importance to place-making that we neglect at our peril. I'm not saying every non-religious person will at some point find that they "really" are religious -- yes, there can be atheists in foxholes. But I think there are many people who are not religious who still get value from the parish church. They serve not just as religious centers, but as soup kitchens, AA meeting venues, or simply a beautiful place to drop in for a quick moment of meditation.
Or, I kind of appreciate the fact (noted in the post) that the Church of Norway is (and will still be) responsible for most funerals. I've performed a number of memorial services for homeless folks in my neighborhood over the years, people whose passing would otherwise receive no formal act of communal remembering. There's a value in that. Maybe I'm taking an overly romantic view of it, but I really appreciate the idea of a public space that is set apart from the everyday tasks of home and work.
Again, I'm not an antidisestablishmentarian (hah, got to use it again!) and think it would be a terrible idea to do particularly in my own country, the US. However, things are somewhat different in Europe, where I think people are much more rooted to place and hometown, and I respect that different nations do have different accommodations for religion. I mean, it's still deeply weird to me that Roman Catholic schools (but no other religious schools) are funded by the province of Ontario, or that Germany collects on behalf of religious groups a church tax on their registered members. Or that Elizabeth Windsor magically changes her position on whether churches should have bishops when she crosses the Scottish border! But these are questions for those respective democracies to work out for themselves.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:30 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Certainly; but "location" is not quite the same thing as "place", and I think there's an importance to place-making that we neglect at our peril. I'm not saying every non-religious person will at some point find that they "really" are religious -- yes, there can be atheists in foxholes. But I think there are many people who are not religious who still get value from the parish church. They serve not just as religious centers, but as soup kitchens, AA meeting venues, or simply a beautiful place to drop in for a quick moment of meditation.
Or, I kind of appreciate the fact (noted in the post) that the Church of Norway is (and will still be) responsible for most funerals. I've performed a number of memorial services for homeless folks in my neighborhood over the years, people whose passing would otherwise receive no formal act of communal remembering. There's a value in that. Maybe I'm taking an overly romantic view of it, but I really appreciate the idea of a public space that is set apart from the everyday tasks of home and work.
Again, I'm not an antidisestablishmentarian (hah, got to use it again!) and think it would be a terrible idea to do particularly in my own country, the US. However, things are somewhat different in Europe, where I think people are much more rooted to place and hometown, and I respect that different nations do have different accommodations for religion. I mean, it's still deeply weird to me that Roman Catholic schools (but no other religious schools) are funded by the province of Ontario, or that Germany collects on behalf of religious groups a church tax on their registered members. Or that Elizabeth Windsor magically changes her position on whether churches should have bishops when she crosses the Scottish border! But these are questions for those respective democracies to work out for themselves.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:30 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
tivalasvegas: "There come times when even the most deeply committed secularist may need a place to go and gather -- to grieve communally at the loss of a loved one, to celebrate a marriage, to speak to a wise and experienced priest about a problem. "
All of these functions could just as easily be performed by a community centre. You could even fund full time staff to do the things the church members are doing.
tivalasvegas: " And I've found that the Church is one of the few places left where I can have relationships with people who are postal workers, professors or Uber drivers; with retirees, young adults and children."
But no (and I'm assuming you are some form of christian) Muslims, Jews, Hard atheists, Satanists, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans or most other non christian belief holders. Also depending on your flavour of Christian no gay or trans people.
posted by Mitheral at 7:44 PM on January 1, 2017 [12 favorites]
All of these functions could just as easily be performed by a community centre. You could even fund full time staff to do the things the church members are doing.
tivalasvegas: " And I've found that the Church is one of the few places left where I can have relationships with people who are postal workers, professors or Uber drivers; with retirees, young adults and children."
But no (and I'm assuming you are some form of christian) Muslims, Jews, Hard atheists, Satanists, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans or most other non christian belief holders. Also depending on your flavour of Christian no gay or trans people.
posted by Mitheral at 7:44 PM on January 1, 2017 [12 favorites]
Sure, all points taken. Again, I do fully agree that disestablishment is the right thing to do.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:47 PM on January 1, 2017
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:47 PM on January 1, 2017
Apparently the longest word ever coined is
lopadotemachoselachogaleokranioleipsanodrimhypotrimmatosilphioparaomelitokatakechymenokichlepikossyphophattoperisteralektryonoptekephalliokigklopeleiolagoiosiraiobaphetraganopterygon
which is a fictional fricassee dish mentioned in Aristophanes' Assemblywomen.
One prose translation has the dish in English as "oysters-saltfish-skate-sharks'-heads-left-over-vinegar-dressing-laserpitium-leek-with-honey-sauce-thrush-blackbird-pigeon-dove-roast-cock's-brains-wagtail-cushat-hare-stewed-in-new-wine-gristle-of-veal-pullet's-wings."
posted by blucevalo at 7:52 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
lopadotemachoselachogaleokranioleipsanodrimhypotrimmatosilphioparaomelitokatakechymenokichlepikossyphophattoperisteralektryonoptekephalliokigklopeleiolagoiosiraiobaphetraganopterygon
which is a fictional fricassee dish mentioned in Aristophanes' Assemblywomen.
One prose translation has the dish in English as "oysters-saltfish-skate-sharks'-heads-left-over-vinegar-dressing-laserpitium-leek-with-honey-sauce-thrush-blackbird-pigeon-dove-roast-cock's-brains-wagtail-cushat-hare-stewed-in-new-wine-gristle-of-veal-pullet's-wings."
posted by blucevalo at 7:52 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Perhaps you could also agree that presuming to speak on behalf of those who don't share your beliefs on how we should value the role of churches in our communities is not your, ahem... place.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:53 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:53 PM on January 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
I offered my opinion. I certainly didn't intend to presume to speak on anyone's behalf other than my own, but if I did then I do apologize.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:56 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:56 PM on January 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
oysters-saltfish-skate-sharks'-heads-left-over-vinegar-dressing-laserpitium-leek-with-honey-sauce-thrush-blackbird-pigeon-dove-roast-cock's-brains-wagtail-cushat-hare-stewed-in-new-wine-gristle-of-veal-pullet's-wings
Wow, so Guy Fieri owns a time machine? Explains so much.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:58 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Wow, so Guy Fieri owns a time machine? Explains so much.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:58 PM on January 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Tivalasvegas, I think you'll find that many Jews and other religious minorities in countries with Established churches are quietly angry that they're forced to bow their head before the State religion. The same goes for Christians in majority-Islamic (or Hindu or whatever) states. Even people nominally of the same religion tend to dislike Established churches when they're taken seriously (as they typically are in Islamic countries), so I think you're simply observing the fact that people like churches that reflect their own values: mostly-secular Western European Christians like churches that aren't very evangelical and which don't place any serious demands upon them.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:05 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:05 PM on January 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
The purpose of establishment churches in and after the Reformation was much leas to compel the people to worship in a certain manner as it was to subordinate religion to secular authority, with disabilities of non-communicants not so much to punish their heterodoxy as to keep out of power people who submitted to the authority of religious hierarchs not of the state's choosing.
posted by MattD at 8:30 PM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by MattD at 8:30 PM on January 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
There come times when even the most deeply committed secularist may need a place to go and gather...
What?
to grieve communally at the loss of a loved one,
When my parents died, we held the services in a funeral home. Lots of family and friends visited.
to celebrate a marriage,
I got married in a beautiful old courthouse overlooking the Mississippi River.
to speak to a wise and experienced priest about a problem.
If I have a problem with my car, I talk to a mechanic. When it's a problem with my taxes, I talk with an accountant. When I've got a pain or a rash, there's my doctor. What could I possibly need the expertise of a priest to help me solve? What on earth can a religious official provide a secular person?
When my son was two weeks old, he caught an infection that threatened his life. A kindly religious official stopped by our hospital room to offer comfort, and I found it the most bizarre and useless offering imaginable. Why would I want to talk to her? She couldn't heal my son, and I find nothing comforting in any religion.
And don't get me started on this "committed secularist" nonsense...
posted by GhostintheMachine at 8:48 PM on January 1, 2017 [17 favorites]
What?
to grieve communally at the loss of a loved one,
When my parents died, we held the services in a funeral home. Lots of family and friends visited.
to celebrate a marriage,
I got married in a beautiful old courthouse overlooking the Mississippi River.
to speak to a wise and experienced priest about a problem.
If I have a problem with my car, I talk to a mechanic. When it's a problem with my taxes, I talk with an accountant. When I've got a pain or a rash, there's my doctor. What could I possibly need the expertise of a priest to help me solve? What on earth can a religious official provide a secular person?
When my son was two weeks old, he caught an infection that threatened his life. A kindly religious official stopped by our hospital room to offer comfort, and I found it the most bizarre and useless offering imaginable. Why would I want to talk to her? She couldn't heal my son, and I find nothing comforting in any religion.
And don't get me started on this "committed secularist" nonsense...
posted by GhostintheMachine at 8:48 PM on January 1, 2017 [17 favorites]
Interestingly, we just watched a really fun movie The Last King on Netflix. It's about the time in 1204 when Norwegian Birkebeiners carried an infant king across country on skis to protect him from their rival Baglers. Those terms are all explained in the links, but I mention it here because at first I thought they disliked the Catholic Baglers because they were Lutheran. When I realized the date I understood that they just weren't christians at all. With that, and with how unlikely they portrayed baptism to be in Trollhunter, it seems to me that Norway's connection to the Christianity is a little more tenuous than it's neighbors. Anyway, great movie. Highly recommended.
posted by putzface_dickman at 10:59 PM on January 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by putzface_dickman at 10:59 PM on January 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
" It's about the time in 1204 when Norwegian Birkebeiners carried an infant king across country on skis to protect him from their rival Baglers."
This is my favorite Norwegian story! There's a memorial ski race that's 54 km (33.5 miles) but the fun part is that competitors have to carry 3.5 k (about 8 lbs) to represent the baby king they're fleeing with. (The baby was actually 2 years old and 8 pounds would be hella scrawny but anyway! He grew up to unite the country and end the civil war so it worked out!)
Their 3.5 k is food and survival gear in case the weather changes, which seems kind-of like cheating compared to carrying a cranky toddler in the freezing cold, but then they're not actually involved in a civil war, so ...
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:09 PM on January 1, 2017 [11 favorites]
This is my favorite Norwegian story! There's a memorial ski race that's 54 km (33.5 miles) but the fun part is that competitors have to carry 3.5 k (about 8 lbs) to represent the baby king they're fleeing with. (The baby was actually 2 years old and 8 pounds would be hella scrawny but anyway! He grew up to unite the country and end the civil war so it worked out!)
Their 3.5 k is food and survival gear in case the weather changes, which seems kind-of like cheating compared to carrying a cranky toddler in the freezing cold, but then they're not actually involved in a civil war, so ...
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:09 PM on January 1, 2017 [11 favorites]
I'm a proud fourth generation atheist, but I learnt today from this post that I am also an antidisestablishmentarianist - what a cool word! It seems to me, from observation, that religion plays a smaller role in countries with established religion. This definitely has been the case in Scandinavia. But even in countries such as Morocco and Iran, the latter undeniably a totalitarian country ruled by clergy, religion is not nearly as dominant in everyday life or even political discourse as in most neighboring countries. It's really weird to experience. AFAIK, Morocco and Iran are the only Muslim countries where Jews are legally protected from discrimination.
I also agree with tivaslasvegas: even for atheists, the church can be a good space for celebration or sorrow. My atheist dad asked to be buried from a church, after personally experiencing how difficult it is for the bereaved to arrange their own ceremony in the middle of grief. All the power to those who can manage it — I've been to some really beautiful and heartwarming non-religious ceremonies, both funerals and weddings — but if you can't, the church is a good place to be, and in my experience very respectful of atheists' wishes.
posted by mumimor at 12:24 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
I also agree with tivaslasvegas: even for atheists, the church can be a good space for celebration or sorrow. My atheist dad asked to be buried from a church, after personally experiencing how difficult it is for the bereaved to arrange their own ceremony in the middle of grief. All the power to those who can manage it — I've been to some really beautiful and heartwarming non-religious ceremonies, both funerals and weddings — but if you can't, the church is a good place to be, and in my experience very respectful of atheists' wishes.
posted by mumimor at 12:24 AM on January 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
AFAIK, Morocco and Iran are the only Muslim countries where Jews are legally protected from discrimination.
Legally protected maybe; not actually protected. There's a considerable amount of official and personal discrimination and consequently almost every Jew that could leave has left. The number of Jews remaining in Iran is a matter of debate, but it's probably a few percent of the original figure. The figure for Morocco is about one percent.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:47 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Legally protected maybe; not actually protected. There's a considerable amount of official and personal discrimination and consequently almost every Jew that could leave has left. The number of Jews remaining in Iran is a matter of debate, but it's probably a few percent of the original figure. The figure for Morocco is about one percent.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:47 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
also, 2017 is the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther's 95 theses, which Germany will celebrate.
to receive a share of tax revenues
I've been pondering these Nordic state churches of late.
posted by infini at 12:58 AM on January 2, 2017
to receive a share of tax revenues
I've been pondering these Nordic state churches of late.
posted by infini at 12:58 AM on January 2, 2017
All of these functions could just as easily be performed by a community centre. You could even fund full time staff to do the things the church members are doing.
Ours just opened in time for the Solstice holiday. They've been clever and built a door through the local supermarket as well as formal entrance. And big bay windows with cushions. So you're deeply tempted to nip across for a sit down and a read when you go to buy eggs.
posted by infini at 1:03 AM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Ours just opened in time for the Solstice holiday. They've been clever and built a door through the local supermarket as well as formal entrance. And big bay windows with cushions. So you're deeply tempted to nip across for a sit down and a read when you go to buy eggs.
posted by infini at 1:03 AM on January 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
resenting the made-up-by-a-Disney-songwriter word "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious"
Would you resent it less if you learned that it wasn't made up by Disney? (it's much older than the movie, the Sherman brothers picked it up when they were kids)
Mary Poppins author, PL Travers took issue with the word, seen here in the underrated movie Saving Mr. Banks.
posted by fairmettle at 2:48 AM on January 2, 2017
Would you resent it less if you learned that it wasn't made up by Disney? (it's much older than the movie, the Sherman brothers picked it up when they were kids)
Mary Poppins author, PL Travers took issue with the word, seen here in the underrated movie Saving Mr. Banks.
posted by fairmettle at 2:48 AM on January 2, 2017
I used 'fustian' in a book report when I was a kid.
You should have been here on April 20, 2006.
posted by TedW at 3:29 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
You should have been here on April 20, 2006.
posted by TedW at 3:29 AM on January 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
But I think there are many people who are not religious who still get value from the parish church. They serve not just as religious centers, but as soup kitchens, AA meeting venues, or simply a beautiful place to drop in for a quick moment of meditation.
Religion actually crowds these places out for the non-religious and other-religious leaving them with no option. Also England's state church is not without its Troubles.
posted by srboisvert at 5:33 AM on January 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
Religion actually crowds these places out for the non-religious and other-religious leaving them with no option. Also England's state church is not without its Troubles.
posted by srboisvert at 5:33 AM on January 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
Religion actually crowds these places out for the non-religious and other-religious leaving them with no option.
Please rephrase. I'm unclear what you are trying to say.
posted by IndigoJones at 6:32 AM on January 2, 2017
Please rephrase. I'm unclear what you are trying to say.
posted by IndigoJones at 6:32 AM on January 2, 2017
There come times when even the most deeply committed secularist may need a place to go and gather -- to grieve communally at the loss of a loved one, to celebrate a marriage, to speak to a wise and experienced priest about a problem.
Such services and experiences are provided by Human-Etisk Forbund.
posted by audi alteram partem at 6:36 AM on January 2, 2017
Such services and experiences are provided by Human-Etisk Forbund.
posted by audi alteram partem at 6:36 AM on January 2, 2017
IndigoJones: "I'm unclear what you are trying to say."
Say 80% of a town is nominally of Foo Religion. The non-fooists can only draw on 20% of the population to support non-fooist wedding\ funeral\gathering spaces. And it's even worse in the case of an establishment religion that garners funds from the tax base as their taxes are being used for a facility they can't/choose not to use. This is an especially serious problem in smaller communities where the solution to every problem of space is "use the church".
posted by Mitheral at 6:41 AM on January 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Say 80% of a town is nominally of Foo Religion. The non-fooists can only draw on 20% of the population to support non-fooist wedding\ funeral\gathering spaces. And it's even worse in the case of an establishment religion that garners funds from the tax base as their taxes are being used for a facility they can't/choose not to use. This is an especially serious problem in smaller communities where the solution to every problem of space is "use the church".
posted by Mitheral at 6:41 AM on January 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
What Mitheral said, although with the codicil that removing the venues affiliated with Foo religion is not actually a guarantee that a community centre will subsequently be built or staffed. In a capitalist system there's a strong temptation for the powers that be to stick a Walmart on that land instead. If the economic and political landscape mean there's no funding or political will to create secular spaces for community wellbeing, people will cling to existing spaces for spiritual wellbeing as the next best thing.
We should disestablish to prevent specific religions from enjoying special privileges and we should commit to creating secular spaces which provide opportunities for people of all faiths and none, but it's important not to assume that A will automatically lead to B.
posted by the latin mouse at 6:54 AM on January 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
We should disestablish to prevent specific religions from enjoying special privileges and we should commit to creating secular spaces which provide opportunities for people of all faiths and none, but it's important not to assume that A will automatically lead to B.
posted by the latin mouse at 6:54 AM on January 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
In Denmark, there are different fractions within the state church, and while they share the church, they have different community buildings. And now, there are also the secular library+cultural space+community center buildings. It seems we can afford them all. And mosques and synagogues. It is not a zero-sum game, and in a time of increasing anti-semitism and anti-muslim sentiment, I see some bishops going right to the front of opposition against the racism and protection of religious freedom.
Legally protected maybe; not actually protected. There's a considerable amount of official and personal discrimination and consequently almost every Jew that could leave has left. The number of Jews remaining in Iran is a matter of debate, but it's probably a few percent of the original figure. The figure for Morocco is about one percent.
I can't disagree, not least because I have met some of those few remaining Jews in both countries, as well as immigrants from both countries, here and in Israel. But I'm not comparing with Western democracies. I'm comparing with their neighbors: the Gulf states, most of the -stans, Northern Africa.
It often seems like I'm an apologist for Iran here on the blue, and it's a bit strange given that their government is authoritarian and sponsors terror in Lebanon and Israel, things I am naturally against. But the demonization of Iran from American and Israeli conservatives has long since transcended common sense and actual knowledge, which again stands in the way of real change for the long-suffering Iranian people. During the last 8 years, it has become apparent that Iranian, American and Israeli conservatives are on the same side: against peace and against prosperity for ordinary people. They don't even bother to hide their unholy alliance anymore.
From my outsiders' perspective, the three countries have confounding similarities: the kleptocratic leadership, the extreme inequality, the chaotic mixture of radical religion and flamboyant secularism, the militarization. And in all three countries: very warm, caring and smart people.
posted by mumimor at 8:42 AM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Legally protected maybe; not actually protected. There's a considerable amount of official and personal discrimination and consequently almost every Jew that could leave has left. The number of Jews remaining in Iran is a matter of debate, but it's probably a few percent of the original figure. The figure for Morocco is about one percent.
I can't disagree, not least because I have met some of those few remaining Jews in both countries, as well as immigrants from both countries, here and in Israel. But I'm not comparing with Western democracies. I'm comparing with their neighbors: the Gulf states, most of the -stans, Northern Africa.
It often seems like I'm an apologist for Iran here on the blue, and it's a bit strange given that their government is authoritarian and sponsors terror in Lebanon and Israel, things I am naturally against. But the demonization of Iran from American and Israeli conservatives has long since transcended common sense and actual knowledge, which again stands in the way of real change for the long-suffering Iranian people. During the last 8 years, it has become apparent that Iranian, American and Israeli conservatives are on the same side: against peace and against prosperity for ordinary people. They don't even bother to hide their unholy alliance anymore.
From my outsiders' perspective, the three countries have confounding similarities: the kleptocratic leadership, the extreme inequality, the chaotic mixture of radical religion and flamboyant secularism, the militarization. And in all three countries: very warm, caring and smart people.
posted by mumimor at 8:42 AM on January 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
This other Wikipedia page seems to suggest there are quite a few more national churches in European countries than the link in the first line of the FPP suggests.
posted by biffa at 10:45 AM on January 2, 2017
posted by biffa at 10:45 AM on January 2, 2017
Uff da!
posted by elsietheeel at 7:09 PM on January 2, 2017
posted by elsietheeel at 7:09 PM on January 2, 2017
Also: Down with the Disestablishmentarianism, MAN
posted by elsietheeel at 7:20 PM on January 2, 2017
posted by elsietheeel at 7:20 PM on January 2, 2017
Thread: Norwegian state religion.
Comments: Jews in Iran.
posted by brokkr at 4:41 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Comments: Jews in Iran.
posted by brokkr at 4:41 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
« Older Rory: failing at holding flowers | Load 745 tons and what do you get? Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:02 PM on January 1, 2017 [46 favorites]