Don't Stay in School
January 4, 2017 4:36 AM Subscribe
Don't Go to School (slyt) David Brown posits that the traditional school syllabus is a poor fit for modern life.
"I was never taught what law there are"
I guess that would have come under Civics, which for some odd reason schools stopped teaching years ago.
posted by james33 at 4:46 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
I guess that would have come under Civics, which for some odd reason schools stopped teaching years ago.
posted by james33 at 4:46 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
That's the stupidest argument for anything I've heard this week. Essentially it's "school hasn't force-fed me the information I need to deal with every aspect of life... therefore it isn't useful... therefore don't go to school."
It's an argument for a total lack of agency. We are what is done to us (or for us). We cannot learn by ourselves, or from experience, or from our families and others around us, because knowledge and skills are something that is put into us, like a vaccination.
There's a very strong argument to be made that schools should do more to prepare kids for life; probably the most useful thing they can teach (and many do) is that education doesn't begin and end at the school gate. But this isn't that argument.
posted by pipeski at 5:04 AM on January 4, 2017 [25 favorites]
It's an argument for a total lack of agency. We are what is done to us (or for us). We cannot learn by ourselves, or from experience, or from our families and others around us, because knowledge and skills are something that is put into us, like a vaccination.
There's a very strong argument to be made that schools should do more to prepare kids for life; probably the most useful thing they can teach (and many do) is that education doesn't begin and end at the school gate. But this isn't that argument.
posted by pipeski at 5:04 AM on January 4, 2017 [25 favorites]
Ignorance of history is largely why the US and UK are where we currently are, no?
posted by middleclasstool at 5:06 AM on January 4, 2017
posted by middleclasstool at 5:06 AM on January 4, 2017
I'm sure that he would say that I'm part of the problem, but I just reject the idea that students should only learn things with direct practical application. I even reject the idea that we can know what will have direct practical application for a given person. Part of the reason that I learned science as a kid is because nobody could look at tiny me and determine that I wasn't going to become a scientist. How would you even know whether you wanted to continue studying science that until you started studying science? But also, everyone needs to understand how to think scientifically. To be a good citizen, you need to understand how scientists evaluate claims and what the difference is between science and other ways of understanding the universe. Good science education isn't just memorizing factoids: it's also a rigorous introduction to a way of understanding reality. Similarly, no school is going to be able to teach students all the laws of their country. Students need to understand how the legal system works, and then they need to have the tools to research topics that are important to them and to evaluate the sources that they find. Those tools don't just come from practical classes: reading Shakespeare will teach you how to read closely and carefully, and that is definitely a life skill that everyone needs to have.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:11 AM on January 4, 2017 [36 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:11 AM on January 4, 2017 [36 favorites]
I'm already planning on homeschooling my children unless something changes. Kids were reading Moby Dick as early as elementary school in my parents day. Now they're banning books because of "bad words."
We parents need to step back up to the education plate and help out their children instead of relying on others to do it.
posted by pizzakats708 at 5:22 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
We parents need to step back up to the education plate and help out their children instead of relying on others to do it.
posted by pizzakats708 at 5:22 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm already planning on homeschooling my children unless something changes. Kids were reading Moby Dick as early as elementary school in my parents day. Now they're banning books because of "bad words."
And such small portions!
posted by Mayor West at 5:31 AM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
And such small portions!
posted by Mayor West at 5:31 AM on January 4, 2017 [9 favorites]
I guess that would have come under Civics, which for some odd reason schools stopped teaching years ago.
Not sure how you're defining years ago, but I have myself taught Civics in a public school this century.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:34 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
For a more nuanced argument might I recommend a book. It's titled Deschooling Society and it was written by Ivan Illich and published in 1971. I understand print copies are also available for sale and in libraries, should you prefer such a thing.
posted by Stanczyk at 5:42 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Stanczyk at 5:42 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
This man apparently attended a school with no civics, home economics, accounting, health, or technology courses. That does indeed sound like a school that could use some greater breadth of field. Maybe we could get ahold of some extra money to fund those, if the same people griping about what a poor job schools do of preparing you for the "real world" would stop voting for political parties with their heads in the goddamned sand.
Meanwhile, it seems like you could take that useless algebra knowledge you have knocking around in there, and your fancy book learning, and combine them to figure out how to file your own tax return.
posted by Mayor West at 5:42 AM on January 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
Meanwhile, it seems like you could take that useless algebra knowledge you have knocking around in there, and your fancy book learning, and combine them to figure out how to file your own tax return.
posted by Mayor West at 5:42 AM on January 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
stop voting for political parties with their heads in the goddamned sand
To be fair, there's actually not all that much sand up there.
posted by flabdablet at 5:45 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
To be fair, there's actually not all that much sand up there.
posted by flabdablet at 5:45 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
Pfft. Everyone knows all kids really need to learn is how to code.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:52 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 5:52 AM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
Kids were reading Moby Dick as early as elementary school in my parents day.
They were? What a pedagogically questionable choice! My God, with the limited instructional time teachers have you'd think they wouldn't waste it on something as crazy as having nine-year-olds read Moby Dick. That is inappropriate to the point of lunacy because kids in elementary school are just not going to benefit that much from reading Melville and there's so much they need to learn that you really need to plan carefully to fit it all in.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 5:54 AM on January 4, 2017 [33 favorites]
They were? What a pedagogically questionable choice! My God, with the limited instructional time teachers have you'd think they wouldn't waste it on something as crazy as having nine-year-olds read Moby Dick. That is inappropriate to the point of lunacy because kids in elementary school are just not going to benefit that much from reading Melville and there's so much they need to learn that you really need to plan carefully to fit it all in.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 5:54 AM on January 4, 2017 [33 favorites]
Yeah, I mean screw the past 40 years worth of cognitive and learning science research into child development! (Also screw people who have to work full time jobs instead of staying home all day with their kids for 15+ years!)
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:58 AM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:58 AM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
What a pedagogically questionable choice! My God...
Perhaps because it is a very, very good book?
Some people just don't get it at all. Sigh.
posted by shockingbluamp at 6:02 AM on January 4, 2017
Perhaps because it is a very, very good book?
Some people just don't get it at all. Sigh.
posted by shockingbluamp at 6:02 AM on January 4, 2017
Homeschooling your kids is definitely work - just not work that comes with a 401K and subsidized health insurance.
posted by COD at 6:03 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by COD at 6:03 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Kids were reading Moby Dick as early as elementary school in my parents day.
...No. No, they were not. They were not even doing that in my parents' day.
They did, however, read Ivanhoe and Silas Marner in high school, which in both cases had the effect of making most teenagers loathe Walter Scott and George Eliot.
posted by thomas j wise at 6:03 AM on January 4, 2017 [19 favorites]
...No. No, they were not. They were not even doing that in my parents' day.
They did, however, read Ivanhoe and Silas Marner in high school, which in both cases had the effect of making most teenagers loathe Walter Scott and George Eliot.
posted by thomas j wise at 6:03 AM on January 4, 2017 [19 favorites]
Kids were reading Moby Dick as early as elementary school in my parents day.
How else would they learn how to render whale oil?
posted by Floydd at 6:10 AM on January 4, 2017 [18 favorites]
How else would they learn how to render whale oil?
posted by Floydd at 6:10 AM on January 4, 2017 [18 favorites]
Perhaps because it is a very, very good book?
Some people just don't get it at all. Sigh.
I've read Moby Dick. I agree that it is a very, very good book. I have an undergraduate degree with departmental honors in English Language and Literature from one of the best universities in the country and I just really love reading and have read a great many things so I feel like I have a decent understanding of good literature. I also have a Master's in Teaching with a focus on Elementary Education and have taught elementary school. Elementary schoolers are not going to get what is good about Moby Dick. Reading it with them would be an inappropriate waste of time. You need to teach elementary schoolers to read age-appropriate texts in order to get them to a point where they will appreciate Moby Dick when they are older. It is insane to me that people think that reading Moby Dick with small children is going to do anything other than confuse and upset them plus waste time they could be developing the skills they need to read Moby Dick when they are no longer small children. What a fucking weird world this is where people genuinely seem to think this is a good idea!
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:14 AM on January 4, 2017 [54 favorites]
Some people just don't get it at all. Sigh.
I've read Moby Dick. I agree that it is a very, very good book. I have an undergraduate degree with departmental honors in English Language and Literature from one of the best universities in the country and I just really love reading and have read a great many things so I feel like I have a decent understanding of good literature. I also have a Master's in Teaching with a focus on Elementary Education and have taught elementary school. Elementary schoolers are not going to get what is good about Moby Dick. Reading it with them would be an inappropriate waste of time. You need to teach elementary schoolers to read age-appropriate texts in order to get them to a point where they will appreciate Moby Dick when they are older. It is insane to me that people think that reading Moby Dick with small children is going to do anything other than confuse and upset them plus waste time they could be developing the skills they need to read Moby Dick when they are no longer small children. What a fucking weird world this is where people genuinely seem to think this is a good idea!
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:14 AM on January 4, 2017 [54 favorites]
I entered elementary school in the mid-1950s. We didn't see Moby Dick until well into high school. Even then, it was a real slog to get through. I cannot imagine any rationale for making elementary students read that book. Somebody's inventing history.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:20 AM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:20 AM on January 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
I remember in 4th grade, when we were studying Truth And Method, one child just burst into tears when the teacher explained that there was no way out of the hermeneutic circle.
posted by thelonius at 6:21 AM on January 4, 2017 [35 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 6:21 AM on January 4, 2017 [35 favorites]
I have an automatic allergy to any valorizing of schooling in the "good old days" because it was largely accomplished with a) corporal punishment of children, b) exploitation of women, c) de jure and/or de facto segregation, d) institutionalization of children with disabilities, e) everyone being a-okay with students with learning differences just being written off as bad and ineducable at very very young ages.
But I guess they were reading developmentally inappropriate literature, so yay?
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:31 AM on January 4, 2017 [31 favorites]
But I guess they were reading developmentally inappropriate literature, so yay?
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:31 AM on January 4, 2017 [31 favorites]
Kids these days aren't even deriving Taniyama-Shimura from ZFC anymore. smh
posted by kmz at 6:32 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by kmz at 6:32 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
Don't teach the quadratic formula to kids who will grow up to work in Wallmart--just to those who will become scientists. You'll know who they are by their class.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:34 AM on January 4, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:34 AM on January 4, 2017 [12 favorites]
Kids were reading Moby Dick as early as elementary school in my parents day.
They weren't really reading it in a full sense, at that age. They were being walked through its story by a teacher reading it for them. Even if their eyes passed over the words.
I had the same experience with The Iliad in 5th or 6th grade. And that's probably a better fit for the age than Moby Dick if you're going to insist on that kind of pretension. The exercise might have had some value, I'm sure it was used as a vehicle to teach a bunch of Classical history alongside, and probably some basic poetics, but it was nothing like reading it in college.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:37 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
They weren't really reading it in a full sense, at that age. They were being walked through its story by a teacher reading it for them. Even if their eyes passed over the words.
I had the same experience with The Iliad in 5th or 6th grade. And that's probably a better fit for the age than Moby Dick if you're going to insist on that kind of pretension. The exercise might have had some value, I'm sure it was used as a vehicle to teach a bunch of Classical history alongside, and probably some basic poetics, but it was nothing like reading it in college.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:37 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
I took a "US government" class, but it wasn't mandatory. The only reason I know anything about basic finances and stuff is because both my parents had careers in banking. And I'm kinda jealous David Brown learned how to use a condom in school, because went to Catholic school and had to seek out all my sexual health info on my own.*
I liked the video and thought it was a totally valid argument. At least, the part about learning less practical things without at least including important life skills. But "hey let's rethink our education priorities" is a lot less catchy than "don't stay in school."
Besides, we all know that school is not a place for smart people.
*Though I'm more passionate about sexual health than about pretty much anything else, so I guess there's something to be said for self-directed study.
posted by giraffe at 6:48 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
I liked the video and thought it was a totally valid argument. At least, the part about learning less practical things without at least including important life skills. But "hey let's rethink our education priorities" is a lot less catchy than "don't stay in school."
Besides, we all know that school is not a place for smart people.
*Though I'm more passionate about sexual health than about pretty much anything else, so I guess there's something to be said for self-directed study.
posted by giraffe at 6:48 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
A lot of the "practical life skills" stuff that isn't taught in school isn't taught because parents insist that they should be the ones teaching it to their kids and then they... don't. Either on principle or just neglect.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:51 AM on January 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:51 AM on January 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
David Brown posits that the traditional school syllabus is a poor fit for modern life.
I don't think the traditional school syllabus was ever a good fit for even ancient life. One didn't attend Plato's Academy in order to learn how to farm...
posted by Dalby at 7:02 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
I don't think the traditional school syllabus was ever a good fit for even ancient life. One didn't attend Plato's Academy in order to learn how to farm...
posted by Dalby at 7:02 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Kinda how I felt in high school. The word "relevant" and how education wasn't was my single point, and David Brown's, too. I still hear kids kvetch about how they should learn about mortgages and taxes and balancing checkbooks instead of geometry and calculus. But that grown-up stuff isn't hard to pick up as you make your way through life, and besides, you forget most of what you learn in high school, anyway. I remember dissecting a cat in 12th grade, but hell if I can remember the 300+ Latin names for the muscle groups, bones, nerve bundles, etc. OK, gluteus maximus: got that one.
Brown has a point about the need to address issues being germane to the adolescent experience. You shouldn't have to take psychology to learn about depression. Some schools address suicide, bullying, issues of gender and sexuality; some don't.
And almost no one in high school tells you that (in the USA) when a cop asks if he can search your car, you have a right to say no, and probably should say no if you have an ounce of pot in your backpack. I wish my nephew had learned that in high school.
Lastly, I'm not much of a hip-hop critic, but the lack of nuanced word play I've heard elsewhere is painfully absent from this clip.
posted by kozad at 7:17 AM on January 4, 2017
Brown has a point about the need to address issues being germane to the adolescent experience. You shouldn't have to take psychology to learn about depression. Some schools address suicide, bullying, issues of gender and sexuality; some don't.
And almost no one in high school tells you that (in the USA) when a cop asks if he can search your car, you have a right to say no, and probably should say no if you have an ounce of pot in your backpack. I wish my nephew had learned that in high school.
Lastly, I'm not much of a hip-hop critic, but the lack of nuanced word play I've heard elsewhere is painfully absent from this clip.
posted by kozad at 7:17 AM on January 4, 2017
And almost no one in high school tells you that (in the USA) when a cop asks if he can search your car, you have a right to say no, and probably should say no if you have an ounce of pot in your backpack.
Loooooord can you imagine what (white, middle class) parents would say if their kid came home and was like, "Hey, we learned in Civics today that I can tell cops to shove it if I have drugs in my backpack and they want to search it!"
Teaching Civics is a constant battle of trying to tell kids what they need to know without telling them things that are going to get repeated (probably slightly incorrectly) to parents who will then attempt to get you fired. I taught Civics in a very rural, conservative area and trying to explain economic systems (e.g. socialism vs. capitalism) without triggering "MOOOOM! DAAAAD! TEACHER TOLD ME THAT SOCIALISM ISN'T THE PUREST EVIL EVER VISITED TO EARTH BY SATAN!!!!" was tough.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:24 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Loooooord can you imagine what (white, middle class) parents would say if their kid came home and was like, "Hey, we learned in Civics today that I can tell cops to shove it if I have drugs in my backpack and they want to search it!"
Teaching Civics is a constant battle of trying to tell kids what they need to know without telling them things that are going to get repeated (probably slightly incorrectly) to parents who will then attempt to get you fired. I taught Civics in a very rural, conservative area and trying to explain economic systems (e.g. socialism vs. capitalism) without triggering "MOOOOM! DAAAAD! TEACHER TOLD ME THAT SOCIALISM ISN'T THE PUREST EVIL EVER VISITED TO EARTH BY SATAN!!!!" was tough.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:24 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Obviously, this is going to vary by educational system, but civics is included in my state's educational standards, and students are required to learn about it at every stage of their k-12 education. I think it's integrated into the social studies curriculum in the younger grades, but it's definitely covered.
I am all for schools teaching practical life skills, but no school is going to be able to anticipate the practical life skills that every student will need. If students only learn "relevant" skills, they won't have the tools to deal with the actual stuff they encounter, if only because they're going to encounter things over the course of their lives that are different from what existed when they were in school. They also need basic analytical skills, the ability to synthesize new information, the ability to communicate effectively, the ability to empathize with people different from themselves... all the things that you're supposed to get from a broad liberal education.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:27 AM on January 4, 2017
I am all for schools teaching practical life skills, but no school is going to be able to anticipate the practical life skills that every student will need. If students only learn "relevant" skills, they won't have the tools to deal with the actual stuff they encounter, if only because they're going to encounter things over the course of their lives that are different from what existed when they were in school. They also need basic analytical skills, the ability to synthesize new information, the ability to communicate effectively, the ability to empathize with people different from themselves... all the things that you're supposed to get from a broad liberal education.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:27 AM on January 4, 2017
Don't teach the quadratic formula to kids who will grow up to work in Wallmart--just to those who will become scientists. You'll know who they are by their class.
Alpha children wear grey They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm really awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard.
posted by briank at 7:30 AM on January 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
Alpha children wear grey They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm really awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard.
posted by briank at 7:30 AM on January 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
I took a "US government" class, but it wasn't mandatory.
Civics in the form of a class called "Economic, Legal, and Political Systems of America" was mandatory at my high school. It looks like the state level requirement is now something called "American History: The Founding Principles, Civics, and Economics," but the curriculum is similar.* It's not a perfect course, but you do learn the structure of government, some basic supply and demand level microeconomics, and some stuff about financial planning. It's not enough to get you through life, but it's a start. I'm surprised to learn that the UK doesn't offer something similar, but I don't really know much about education there. The problem at my high school is that the non-AP/Honors social studies courses were a dumping ground for the teachers who were actually there to coach. It was untested and kind of ephemeral, so it was basically a place for guys named Chip to repeat some Rush Limbaugh talking points before coaching golf.
The video isn't totally wrong, but practical stuff needs to exist alongside the quadratic equation and frog dissection which are both really important beginning experiences to people who go on to lots of different types of jobs (even leaving aside the non-practical value of education). Sure, we should probably teach kids how to file out a 1040, or cook a few basic meals, or budget, but that's not a reason to stop reading Shakespeare. Still he's not a Nazi who's into Korn so he's doing better than the guy from my high school he reminds me of.
*The specific statute outlining the current requirement is basically an ALEC statute so it's full of very specific conservative talking points that I don't love, but it is a civics requirements and the fuller standard course of study is better.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:31 AM on January 4, 2017
Civics in the form of a class called "Economic, Legal, and Political Systems of America" was mandatory at my high school. It looks like the state level requirement is now something called "American History: The Founding Principles, Civics, and Economics," but the curriculum is similar.* It's not a perfect course, but you do learn the structure of government, some basic supply and demand level microeconomics, and some stuff about financial planning. It's not enough to get you through life, but it's a start. I'm surprised to learn that the UK doesn't offer something similar, but I don't really know much about education there. The problem at my high school is that the non-AP/Honors social studies courses were a dumping ground for the teachers who were actually there to coach. It was untested and kind of ephemeral, so it was basically a place for guys named Chip to repeat some Rush Limbaugh talking points before coaching golf.
The video isn't totally wrong, but practical stuff needs to exist alongside the quadratic equation and frog dissection which are both really important beginning experiences to people who go on to lots of different types of jobs (even leaving aside the non-practical value of education). Sure, we should probably teach kids how to file out a 1040, or cook a few basic meals, or budget, but that's not a reason to stop reading Shakespeare. Still he's not a Nazi who's into Korn so he's doing better than the guy from my high school he reminds me of.
*The specific statute outlining the current requirement is basically an ALEC statute so it's full of very specific conservative talking points that I don't love, but it is a civics requirements and the fuller standard course of study is better.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:31 AM on January 4, 2017
And almost no one in high school tells you that (in the USA) when a cop asks if he can search your car, you have a right to say no, and probably should say no if you have an ounce of pot in your backpack. I wish my nephew had learned that in high school.
I actually learned this in 7th grade when covering the constitution as part of 'real life applications' (Public jr high/high school, but majority-minority urban area). This is part of why I keep on thinking I'm from an alternate universe whenever anyone talks about mainstream school experiences.
I do wish that home ec wasn't phased out, and there's something to be said for doing more practical shop or mechanics classes, too. Other than the constitutional exam, I never had a civics class and I don't even know if I had one that was available to me. There's a lot of types of knowledge that have been devalued, and I think it's worth looking to see if they're useful. But then, of course, you have to fund these classes, and that's where the real issue comes in.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:36 AM on January 4, 2017
I actually learned this in 7th grade when covering the constitution as part of 'real life applications' (Public jr high/high school, but majority-minority urban area). This is part of why I keep on thinking I'm from an alternate universe whenever anyone talks about mainstream school experiences.
I do wish that home ec wasn't phased out, and there's something to be said for doing more practical shop or mechanics classes, too. Other than the constitutional exam, I never had a civics class and I don't even know if I had one that was available to me. There's a lot of types of knowledge that have been devalued, and I think it's worth looking to see if they're useful. But then, of course, you have to fund these classes, and that's where the real issue comes in.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:36 AM on January 4, 2017
There's a lot of valid points arguing against this video, but presumably we have to put it in the form of verse. Which I definitely learnt at school, because I ain't no fool.
posted by The River Ivel at 7:36 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 7:36 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
You need to teach elementary schoolers to read age reading-level-appropriate texts
FTFY.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:41 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
FTFY.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:41 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
You need to teach elementary schoolers to read age reading-level-appropriate texts
FTFY.
Fair although I'd actually say "developmentally appropriate" texts; I had a very high reading level as a kid but there are books that weren't right for me and I wasn't going to get much out of even if they were technically on my reading level.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:48 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
FTFY.
Fair although I'd actually say "developmentally appropriate" texts; I had a very high reading level as a kid but there are books that weren't right for me and I wasn't going to get much out of even if they were technically on my reading level.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:48 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
I guess it depends on what you mean by "get[ting] much out" of a book. There's lots of stuff - subtext, vocabularly, etc. - that went over my head when I (an advanced reader, like you) was reading Tom Clancy, Stephen King and Douglas Adams in 5th grade, but a lot of stuff got absorbed, like complex syntax and grammar. I think there is value in exposing kids to concepts they can't immediately metabolize since those details will come back to them later and aid in quicker comprehension.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:05 AM on January 4, 2017
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:05 AM on January 4, 2017
To be fair, there's actually not all that much sand up there.
Enough to whine about...
posted by notsnot at 8:07 AM on January 4, 2017
Enough to whine about...
posted by notsnot at 8:07 AM on January 4, 2017
subtext, vocabularly, etc
Argh. Apparently I didn't get as much out of those books as I thought!
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:12 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Argh. Apparently I didn't get as much out of those books as I thought!
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:12 AM on January 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
So I'm not 100% sure he actually is advocating for kids to drop out. He says near the end he wants to make sure "these pointless things don't stay in school."
I think the hashtag is purposefully misleading because it gets attention that way. (I have done no research on him, so if he is literally telling kids to drop out elsewhere, sorry for the misread.)
Also, I agree we need to do a better job teaching both the practical and the theoretical. My own hypothesis is that most kids don't have any interest in the theoretical when we're giving it to them - high school. And then many go to college and waste 3 years drinking, etc. Mainly because they don't have fully formed brains, life experience, yet do have an excess of hormones. I'd like to see an experiment where kids learn the basics, including life skills and foreign language (because there's a ticking clock on language) until 14-15. Then send them out to get menial jobs for a decade. Then we'll pay 100% for a college degree at or after age 25, when they stand a better chance of paying attention and have the life skills to pick a major they might use. I just think it's crazy we ask at 17-yo who has no real life experience to make a hugely expensive decision on what they want to do for the rest of their lives. It doesn't seem to be working very well.
posted by greermahoney at 8:35 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
I think the hashtag is purposefully misleading because it gets attention that way. (I have done no research on him, so if he is literally telling kids to drop out elsewhere, sorry for the misread.)
Also, I agree we need to do a better job teaching both the practical and the theoretical. My own hypothesis is that most kids don't have any interest in the theoretical when we're giving it to them - high school. And then many go to college and waste 3 years drinking, etc. Mainly because they don't have fully formed brains, life experience, yet do have an excess of hormones. I'd like to see an experiment where kids learn the basics, including life skills and foreign language (because there's a ticking clock on language) until 14-15. Then send them out to get menial jobs for a decade. Then we'll pay 100% for a college degree at or after age 25, when they stand a better chance of paying attention and have the life skills to pick a major they might use. I just think it's crazy we ask at 17-yo who has no real life experience to make a hugely expensive decision on what they want to do for the rest of their lives. It doesn't seem to be working very well.
posted by greermahoney at 8:35 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
Basic premise of the song:
"I was never taught about modern ____________.
I was only taught about ancient __________."
Where do you think the basis for modern __________ came from? Now quit yer bitchin' and crack a book.
posted by prepmonkey at 8:37 AM on January 4, 2017
"I was never taught about modern ____________.
I was only taught about ancient __________."
Where do you think the basis for modern __________ came from? Now quit yer bitchin' and crack a book.
posted by prepmonkey at 8:37 AM on January 4, 2017
Elementary schoolers are not going to get what is good about Moby Dick. Reading it with them would be an inappropriate waste of time.
Sorry for the weird tangent here. But. You know how as kids we learned about butterflies metamorphosing? When I learned about that I was all like "this is now a fact that I have learned. Objective accomplished" without noticing that metamorphosis is waaaay fucked up. Kids (well, kids like I was) are just not in a position to appreciate how weird it is to weave yourself another skin-bag and dissociate yourself into a goo so you can rearrange your cells into a totally new body plan.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:54 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
Sorry for the weird tangent here. But. You know how as kids we learned about butterflies metamorphosing? When I learned about that I was all like "this is now a fact that I have learned. Objective accomplished" without noticing that metamorphosis is waaaay fucked up. Kids (well, kids like I was) are just not in a position to appreciate how weird it is to weave yourself another skin-bag and dissociate yourself into a goo so you can rearrange your cells into a totally new body plan.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:54 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
They weren't really reading it in a full sense, at that age. They were being walked through its story by a teacher reading it for them. Even if their eyes passed over the words.
Can we not do this thing where in order to defend modern schooling we have to crap on kids reading great literature? I read Moby Dick in kindergarten, on my own, because I thought it was interesting. Same with the classics. Prometheus Bound was stuck in my brain in all of its glory for the next ten years or so. It was so good I snuck it off my parents' bedroom shelves.
Is my experience of reading these all richer now that I am older and have experienced more of life? Absolutely! But that doesn't mean it was developmentally inappropriate for me to have read Moby Dick or Aeschylus* then. For some kids, it's perfectly appropriate for them to be reading those things.
And that is honestly a thing that we lose when we insist on schooling children only with their age cohort, and all with the same material. Kids that would benefit from advanced material can't get to it, because it's viewed as 'developmentally inappropriate'.
posted by corb at 8:57 AM on January 4, 2017
Can we not do this thing where in order to defend modern schooling we have to crap on kids reading great literature? I read Moby Dick in kindergarten, on my own, because I thought it was interesting. Same with the classics. Prometheus Bound was stuck in my brain in all of its glory for the next ten years or so. It was so good I snuck it off my parents' bedroom shelves.
Is my experience of reading these all richer now that I am older and have experienced more of life? Absolutely! But that doesn't mean it was developmentally inappropriate for me to have read Moby Dick or Aeschylus* then. For some kids, it's perfectly appropriate for them to be reading those things.
And that is honestly a thing that we lose when we insist on schooling children only with their age cohort, and all with the same material. Kids that would benefit from advanced material can't get to it, because it's viewed as 'developmentally inappropriate'.
posted by corb at 8:57 AM on January 4, 2017
(Well, can't get to it if they don't have parents who buy books in bulk, anyway)
posted by corb at 8:58 AM on January 4, 2017
posted by corb at 8:58 AM on January 4, 2017
I'm a pretty big fan of dropping out of school, but for almost opposite reasons. The kids I know are getting very little in the way of real liberal arts education. The last kid I know well who just finished high school had essentially a bunch of classes in memorizing stuff for tests, combined with silly and usually outdated 'vocational' training, plus some really weird and almost randomly selected computer skills, including a really time consuming project where he had to make an Xtranormal video. And he went to a really high rated school.
I will note that he got turfed to some 'vocational' track in school because he had a tough time with adolescence for a while. He had a whole series of classes in "motor sports" and training in careers that barely even exist anymore, like firefighting. Which is probably how that school system got so high rated. They send the underperforming kids to classes in how to become Batman when you grow up.
The stuff this kid here is singing about I'm not seeing much of in the US.
Also, though, I would like to LOL at all the early reader nerds who chose to read great literature. I was an advanced reader, and man oh man, did I read some trash. I thought that adult life was just fucking and killing people. Imagine my disappointment when I discovered it's only like half.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:05 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
I will note that he got turfed to some 'vocational' track in school because he had a tough time with adolescence for a while. He had a whole series of classes in "motor sports" and training in careers that barely even exist anymore, like firefighting. Which is probably how that school system got so high rated. They send the underperforming kids to classes in how to become Batman when you grow up.
The stuff this kid here is singing about I'm not seeing much of in the US.
Also, though, I would like to LOL at all the early reader nerds who chose to read great literature. I was an advanced reader, and man oh man, did I read some trash. I thought that adult life was just fucking and killing people. Imagine my disappointment when I discovered it's only like half.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:05 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
And almost no one in high school tells you that (in the USA) when a cop asks if he can search your car, you have a right to say no
Depends on your tolerance for the risk of being beaten or just straight-up murdered.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:11 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Depends on your tolerance for the risk of being beaten or just straight-up murdered.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:11 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
And that is honestly a thing that we lose when we insist on schooling children only with their age cohort, and all with the same material. Kids that would benefit from advanced material can't get to it, because it's viewed as 'developmentally inappropriate'.
Except we don't really do that in modern schools; at least not the ones I work with, it no doubt varies from place to place. They track where students are in terms of their ability to read (usually on a number of different axes, like fluency versus comprehension) and work with them on books that are on their individual level (or a slightly higher level for working guided with a teacher). It's probably not as individualized as it could be, if we had a lot more teachers, but it's not like no one knows some students benefit from reading more complicated texts than other students. People spend their whole adult lives studying and working on teaching kids to read; it's not like these insights are unknown to them.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:11 AM on January 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
Except we don't really do that in modern schools; at least not the ones I work with, it no doubt varies from place to place. They track where students are in terms of their ability to read (usually on a number of different axes, like fluency versus comprehension) and work with them on books that are on their individual level (or a slightly higher level for working guided with a teacher). It's probably not as individualized as it could be, if we had a lot more teachers, but it's not like no one knows some students benefit from reading more complicated texts than other students. People spend their whole adult lives studying and working on teaching kids to read; it's not like these insights are unknown to them.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:11 AM on January 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
I went to a decent, but by no means top, high school that had some good programs for the more advanced kids. English and social studies were team-taught as a single class until senior year, which was really helpful in understanding culture in a holistic way. Sophomore year those same teachers added a seminar in music, art, and architecture that played off the units in the main class. It all worked really well together to help understand how all these pieces are interconnected and what that means for the modern world.
That said, generally-speaking I do think we need to do a better job of fostering life skills instead of memorization. We all need basic arithmetic, algebra, and probably geometry, but I know that I never learned those in a context that would illuminate why they're important. They were just math, and even when they were word problems, they weren't germane. Show me how to calculate discounts, how to figure out unit cost, how to eyeball how many gallons of water my pool holds or how much I'm being shorted on my pint at the pub.
posted by uncleozzy at 9:17 AM on January 4, 2017
That said, generally-speaking I do think we need to do a better job of fostering life skills instead of memorization. We all need basic arithmetic, algebra, and probably geometry, but I know that I never learned those in a context that would illuminate why they're important. They were just math, and even when they were word problems, they weren't germane. Show me how to calculate discounts, how to figure out unit cost, how to eyeball how many gallons of water my pool holds or how much I'm being shorted on my pint at the pub.
posted by uncleozzy at 9:17 AM on January 4, 2017
They weren't really reading it in a full sense, at that age. They were being walked through its story by a teacher reading it for them. Even if their eyes passed over the words.
Can we not do this thing where in order to defend modern schooling we have to crap on kids reading great literature?
Can we not do the thing where we call other people's opinions and experiences 'crapping on kids?' That'd be swell.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:20 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
Can we not do this thing where in order to defend modern schooling we have to crap on kids reading great literature?
Can we not do the thing where we call other people's opinions and experiences 'crapping on kids?' That'd be swell.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:20 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
They track where students are in terms of their ability to read (usually on a number of different axes, like fluency versus comprehension) and work with them on books that are on their individual level (or a slightly higher level for working guided with a teacher). It's probably not as individualized as it could be, if we had a lot more teachers, but it's not like no one knows some students benefit from reading more complicated texts than other students.
This is real, but I'm not really sure it's sufficient. Kids are scored at their lexile level, but there isn't really anything available for kids who are essentially several grades ahead of where they're expected to be in reading. The solution used to be having those kids skip grades, or at least go into a classroom with older kids, but we've moved away from that now, so now they just kind of painfully exist and don't actually improve unless the parents supplement the education.
posted by corb at 9:28 AM on January 4, 2017
This is real, but I'm not really sure it's sufficient. Kids are scored at their lexile level, but there isn't really anything available for kids who are essentially several grades ahead of where they're expected to be in reading. The solution used to be having those kids skip grades, or at least go into a classroom with older kids, but we've moved away from that now, so now they just kind of painfully exist and don't actually improve unless the parents supplement the education.
posted by corb at 9:28 AM on January 4, 2017
Can really relate to this video and like what it says.
As a young adult in the late 1970s I felt angry I hadn't learned many basic life skills either at home with my utterly impractical parents or in school. So I thought of creating something called Daily Reality Programs. These would be hive mind based videos, interviews with various people who had learned a skill and talked about what worked for them.
Topics would be things like Raising a child, Paying taxes, Making money, Buying a house, Breaking up, Healthy relationships, Affordable delicious meals, Doing laundry, Housekeeping, Using the library, Basic household repairs, Understanding politics, Handling feeling lonely, How to learn about something I don't know yet, all kind of things. I'd make the videos, then offer them to libraries or community centers.
Once I went on the internet in 1999, most of my practical life questions were answered in marvelous detail in the hive mind of the web, with YouTube videos, on AskMetaFilter, so I figured they weren't necessary but maybe they still are.
posted by nickyskye at 9:33 AM on January 4, 2017
As a young adult in the late 1970s I felt angry I hadn't learned many basic life skills either at home with my utterly impractical parents or in school. So I thought of creating something called Daily Reality Programs. These would be hive mind based videos, interviews with various people who had learned a skill and talked about what worked for them.
Topics would be things like Raising a child, Paying taxes, Making money, Buying a house, Breaking up, Healthy relationships, Affordable delicious meals, Doing laundry, Housekeeping, Using the library, Basic household repairs, Understanding politics, Handling feeling lonely, How to learn about something I don't know yet, all kind of things. I'd make the videos, then offer them to libraries or community centers.
Once I went on the internet in 1999, most of my practical life questions were answered in marvelous detail in the hive mind of the web, with YouTube videos, on AskMetaFilter, so I figured they weren't necessary but maybe they still are.
posted by nickyskye at 9:33 AM on January 4, 2017
Wow, am I the only person who was glad I didn't learn "practical" things in school? The torture of listening to someone explain how to fill out a form — I am so glad I missed it. You have plenty of time to learn practical things in life, but only so much time to get exposed to weird things like Ethan Frome and trig. Schools should be as impractical as possible! (Okay, maybe have optional life skills class in the afternoon.)
posted by dame at 9:41 AM on January 4, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by dame at 9:41 AM on January 4, 2017 [13 favorites]
The torture of listening to someone explain how to fill out a form — I am so glad I missed it.
Yeah, knowing people who today cry out that they were never told how to file their taxes in school, I'm very skeptical that had they been taught this that they would have been paying attention.
The same attitude that they're mouthing today (Oh, I only want to be taught the things that are directly relevant to my life) would have applied just the same back then. (Why are you teaching me how to fill out my taxes? I don't pay taxes. I'm gonna continue playing games on my phone.)
posted by Dalby at 9:59 AM on January 4, 2017
Yeah, knowing people who today cry out that they were never told how to file their taxes in school, I'm very skeptical that had they been taught this that they would have been paying attention.
The same attitude that they're mouthing today (Oh, I only want to be taught the things that are directly relevant to my life) would have applied just the same back then. (Why are you teaching me how to fill out my taxes? I don't pay taxes. I'm gonna continue playing games on my phone.)
posted by Dalby at 9:59 AM on January 4, 2017
Half of going to a public school is learning to interact with everyone else in society.
And instead of teaching random "practical" things, wouldn't it be better to teach people to look stuff up? I know I had at least a couple class sessions devoted to "how to use a library" and even though I thought it was dumb because I was a book loving nerd who already knew all that, in retrospect, just practicing those skills was probably helpful.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:59 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
And instead of teaching random "practical" things, wouldn't it be better to teach people to look stuff up? I know I had at least a couple class sessions devoted to "how to use a library" and even though I thought it was dumb because I was a book loving nerd who already knew all that, in retrospect, just practicing those skills was probably helpful.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:59 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure public schools are the best place for kids to be learning 'life skills' anyway. I don't really trust them to decide what my kid needs to know about politics or psychology or sex. Right now, abstinence education is a pretty popular life skill curriculum in the schools.
When my kid was in school, it was drug education. DARE and other similar programs. They were absolutely ridiculous, often horrifically intrusive, and often actually counterproductive. I actually had the regional director for DARE call me at my house to harangue me for opting my son out, and man, he was one of the densest, angriest people I've ever interacted with. And he was in charge of the curriculum.
I'm sure everything would have been great if they taught exactly the life skills I thought were important for my kid, but for some reason, they also let everyone else have some say in it.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:06 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
When my kid was in school, it was drug education. DARE and other similar programs. They were absolutely ridiculous, often horrifically intrusive, and often actually counterproductive. I actually had the regional director for DARE call me at my house to harangue me for opting my son out, and man, he was one of the densest, angriest people I've ever interacted with. And he was in charge of the curriculum.
I'm sure everything would have been great if they taught exactly the life skills I thought were important for my kid, but for some reason, they also let everyone else have some say in it.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:06 AM on January 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Why are you teaching me how to fill out my taxes? I don't pay taxes.
The times kids deploy "when are we ever going to use this" are, in retrospect, kind of bizarre.. I remember hearing it all the time in algebra which even I, as a lawyer, sometimes find myself calling on for random day to day stuff and not as much in social studies classes, which I loved, but my knowledge of world history comes up a lot less directly.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:12 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
The times kids deploy "when are we ever going to use this" are, in retrospect, kind of bizarre.. I remember hearing it all the time in algebra which even I, as a lawyer, sometimes find myself calling on for random day to day stuff and not as much in social studies classes, which I loved, but my knowledge of world history comes up a lot less directly.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:12 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
I remember picking Moby Dick off a library shelf as a primary school child, reading "Call me Ishmael", deciding that "Ishmael" was a stupid and annoying name, and putting it back.
posted by flabdablet at 11:10 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 11:10 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
the experience of an unusually advanced reader who picks a difficult book to read on their own is pretty different than most children who are assigned that book in a classroom, and that's what's was being described. it's really weird to take that as shitting on advanced readers.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 11:37 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 11:37 AM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
And instead of teaching random "practical" things, wouldn't it be better to teach people to look stuff up?
something something teach a man to fish something something
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:38 AM on January 4, 2017
something something teach a man to fish something something
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:38 AM on January 4, 2017
the most practical class i ever had was typing. i had no idea it was going to be useful, but there were a lot of girls taking it and that was good enough for me. i was forced to take drafting/shop class which was a nightmare of not having any basic ability. and i lived for the thirty minutes or so after lunch in seventh grade where the teacher would simply read to us. although moby dick might have been a little much at that point, maybe maybe not. but as much as i loved to read, it didn't hold a candle to story time. that actually felt like i was being taught.
posted by lescour at 11:53 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by lescour at 11:53 AM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
It took me a while into adulthood for it to really sink in that school is designed for the average student to succeed.
Many of us here are above way average students.
I spent so much time in school repeating what I had learned in previous years because concepts and facts stick to my brain. Spelling and grammar not so much. During school, and even for awhile in adulthood it didn't make sense to me.
Most people would not get by without repeating of information. Most people don't get by without reading on age level.
Are there things I think my schools should have emphasized less? Yes. But ultimately school wasn't designed for me with good reasons.
Some of the things he mentioned like basic healthcare decisions, first aid, mental health and financial skills (like taxes highly dependent on law) schools don't want to teach due to liability. If someone decides they can take aspirin for a headache, but they are on blood thinners and then bleed to death at 16 = lawsuit central.
I don't think it is right, and we should empower individuals. I just wonder how much of our schooling is affected by risk of losing funds.
posted by AlexiaSky at 12:10 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Many of us here are above way average students.
I spent so much time in school repeating what I had learned in previous years because concepts and facts stick to my brain. Spelling and grammar not so much. During school, and even for awhile in adulthood it didn't make sense to me.
Most people would not get by without repeating of information. Most people don't get by without reading on age level.
Are there things I think my schools should have emphasized less? Yes. But ultimately school wasn't designed for me with good reasons.
Some of the things he mentioned like basic healthcare decisions, first aid, mental health and financial skills (like taxes highly dependent on law) schools don't want to teach due to liability. If someone decides they can take aspirin for a headache, but they are on blood thinners and then bleed to death at 16 = lawsuit central.
I don't think it is right, and we should empower individuals. I just wonder how much of our schooling is affected by risk of losing funds.
posted by AlexiaSky at 12:10 PM on January 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
I homeschooled my eldest (now attending first year university two years ahead of her peers and with a solid A average, ahem). While teaching her algebra I used to hop on Khan academy the night before and basically just be one step ahead of her daily curriculum. She found math very frustrating and at one point asked if I liked algebra. I told her I enjoyed puzzling it out in secondary school and was enjoying re-learning it again as an adult. So she asked me when I had ever *used* algebra. Right now, while I am teaching you, is what I told her. I still made her learn it.
posted by saucysault at 12:17 PM on January 4, 2017
posted by saucysault at 12:17 PM on January 4, 2017
In a very very general sense of problem solving involving numbers, I use algebra all the time.
In the sense of memorizing formulas, I've forgotten most of those, and I can't say that bothers me much.
When I started high school, everyone had to take a math placement test, and I got placed in AP algebra.
Of some importance, I was probably dressed funny because we'd moved to the area something like two weeks prior and I didn't know the local high school cultural markers, and I thought I probably had a funny accent, so I tried not to talk at all. I was also the only girl in the class.
As such, I mostly just tried to lay low, but one day, the teacher called me out in front of everyone--an entire room full of boys--because I'd somehow gotten correct answers on a test despite not writing out the exact formulas he'd taught us for the 'show your work' part. He assumed I was cheating, and I was too self-conscious to defend myself. So for the rest of the class, I focused on writing the formulas down the way he wanted rather than on actually solving problems, as it was pretty obvious that this teacher had no idea that algebra was anything but a series of formulas you had to memorize and then dutifully apply to specific types of math problems. That kind of algebra is boring and not applicable to most adults. But the kind where you have a problem and figure out how to solve it can be really fun, and is good general problem solving practice. Unfortunately, you need school systems and individual teachers who understand that and are capable of teaching it as problem solving.
Denouement: My brother later got the same teacher and was also accused of cheating, but he got mad, defended himself, and won a little moral victory.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:52 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
In the sense of memorizing formulas, I've forgotten most of those, and I can't say that bothers me much.
When I started high school, everyone had to take a math placement test, and I got placed in AP algebra.
Of some importance, I was probably dressed funny because we'd moved to the area something like two weeks prior and I didn't know the local high school cultural markers, and I thought I probably had a funny accent, so I tried not to talk at all. I was also the only girl in the class.
As such, I mostly just tried to lay low, but one day, the teacher called me out in front of everyone--an entire room full of boys--because I'd somehow gotten correct answers on a test despite not writing out the exact formulas he'd taught us for the 'show your work' part. He assumed I was cheating, and I was too self-conscious to defend myself. So for the rest of the class, I focused on writing the formulas down the way he wanted rather than on actually solving problems, as it was pretty obvious that this teacher had no idea that algebra was anything but a series of formulas you had to memorize and then dutifully apply to specific types of math problems. That kind of algebra is boring and not applicable to most adults. But the kind where you have a problem and figure out how to solve it can be really fun, and is good general problem solving practice. Unfortunately, you need school systems and individual teachers who understand that and are capable of teaching it as problem solving.
Denouement: My brother later got the same teacher and was also accused of cheating, but he got mad, defended himself, and won a little moral victory.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:52 PM on January 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
I did take civics in high school and loved it. Of course, the timing was excellent - I took it in the fall of 1988, with a Presidential election happening, so we got to see a lot of the things we were learning about happening in real life.
posted by SisterHavana at 1:03 PM on January 4, 2017
posted by SisterHavana at 1:03 PM on January 4, 2017
I spent my 8th and 9th grade high school years (1963 - 1964) in a small military academy in Georgia (as in U.S. state). Most of the instructors there were retired military, WWII and Korean war vets.
In addition to the usual English, Math, and so on, the syllabus there included stuff like dissambly/cleaning/reassembly of M1 Garands and carbines, hand-to-hand combat, and the like -- often taught out of surplus WWII army field manuals.
When I later went back to public school and the other kids would ask what kind of stuff I kearned in military school, it was fun to say "stuff like how to kill you with my bare hands without people in the next room knowing."
Turns out that I haven't actually needed to apply any of that knowledge either, but then again, one never knows...
posted by TwoToneRow at 1:10 PM on January 4, 2017
In addition to the usual English, Math, and so on, the syllabus there included stuff like dissambly/cleaning/reassembly of M1 Garands and carbines, hand-to-hand combat, and the like -- often taught out of surplus WWII army field manuals.
When I later went back to public school and the other kids would ask what kind of stuff I kearned in military school, it was fun to say "stuff like how to kill you with my bare hands without people in the next room knowing."
Turns out that I haven't actually needed to apply any of that knowledge either, but then again, one never knows...
posted by TwoToneRow at 1:10 PM on January 4, 2017
I took civics as a freshman in high school in the '80s. The teacher was a criminal defense attorney with a very dry and cynical sense of humor. A significant part of the class involved studying various scenarios involving police and citizens (e.g., a traffic stop where drugs are found after a search) and determining whether the actions taken by police were constitutional. We also talked about how to protect our own rights in similar situations. It was an excellent class, and I have found the material learned to be useful and very practical throughout my life.
posted by krinklyfig at 2:06 PM on January 4, 2017
posted by krinklyfig at 2:06 PM on January 4, 2017
(Wow, do I hate having to watch a video - even a short one - to get the message.)
This year, I am trying to start responding to arguments in a more ordered way that leads to action, like this:
posted by kristi at 2:08 PM on January 4, 2017 [17 favorites]
This year, I am trying to start responding to arguments in a more ordered way that leads to action, like this:
- Do I agree with the main point? No. The point highlighted at the end is "Nobody should be forced to learn something that isn't practically useful." I think everyone should have access to beauty and wonder, and I know music and art and math and science and foreign languages have brought beauty and wonder and joy and delight into my own life, and I want everyone to have access to those.
- What do I agree with? He says "Introduce those topics, yes" but then let students choose whether to pursue them. Well, I do agree with that, and in my experience, that's pretty much what happens for many students in many countries; my perception is that, more often, kids are deprived of an introduction, rather than forced too far along the path. Perhaps it would be useful to explore what constitutes a sufficient introduction. He also seems to be making a case for including more practical life-skills and citizen education in schools, and I agree with that; but I disagree that those are more essential than literature and history and algebra. From the rest of the discussion here on Metafilter:
- I agree with pipeski that the best thing to learn is how to learn, and that lots of learning takes place outside of school
- I agree with ArbitraryAndCapricious that no one knows, for any individual child, what topics will have practical application as an adult, and also that being able to think scientifically is essential to being an informed citizen
- I agree with Mrs. Pterodactyl that requiring grade-school kids to read Moby Dick is developmentally inappropriate, and I strongly agree with her that developmentally-appropriate learning activities are best
- I agree with soren_lorensen that the "good old days" of schooling were really bad in a lot of important ways
- I thoroughly agree with Bulgaroktonos that we should probably teach more life skills but also continue teaching Shakespeare
- I agree with grumpybear69 and corb that young children can still get a lot out of books that are beyond their level in some ways (I read adult books as a grade-schooler and missed a lot of stuff but also picked up a lot of stuff)
- I agree with corb that kids should have access to things that are beyond their grade level - so I strongly support well-stocked school libraries and public libraries, which fed lots of my reading when I was a kid
- What kind of world do I want to live in:
- What's the least we should do? I want to live in a world with educated people who enjoy learning about things. I want to live in a world with equal opportunity for everyone. So, to me, the least we should do is:
- fund public schools well
- push for broad curricula for everyone
- push for whatever's needed (free school meals, remedial courses, good pre-school options, robust school libraries) to provide equal opportunities for all students
- support education programs in other countries, since being able to get even an elementary school education isn't guaranteed all over the world (thanks to leibniz for the list of good things about 2016, in which I learned that the global literacy rate is the highest ever)
- What's the ideal?
- What will I do about this, and when?
I would like to live in a world where all education is free to everyone and teachers are among the highest-paid professionals - and where very little of their time has to be devoted to their least-favorite chores, and instead they can spend most of their time working with small groups of kids to make sure each kid is getting all the basic knowledge they'll need to thrive, and also that each kid gets to explore their own interests.
This month, I will contact my state representatives and my school board representatives to tell them that I support giving lots of money schools in general and paying teachers and funding school libraries in particular, and when appropriate, thanking them for their past efforts to provide lots of options for all kids. Wow, that's seven people on the school board ... guess I need to look up some phone numbers.
posted by kristi at 2:08 PM on January 4, 2017 [17 favorites]
Nice use of bullet points. I've always admired those who really know how to bullet as opposed to those who just dash dash a few lists and think they're done.
posted by Stanczyk at 2:31 PM on January 4, 2017
posted by Stanczyk at 2:31 PM on January 4, 2017
Gosh, I just hear so much pain in this video.
I fell solidly into the "why didn't I learn any real life skills in school" camp for a good few years after I got my first degree. And I think I knew deep down, even then, that the problem wasn't that I had truly learned nothing practical. The problem was having graduated into a shit economy, and having an abusive boss the likes of whom I had never faced before, and having precarious housing, and feeling helpless in the face of all that. Only problem was, there was nothing I could do to undo the financial crash of 2008, or convince my boss that I wasn't incurable socially stunted, or make stable housing easier to find. So I made up origins for my problems that began with college. If only I hadn't gone to a super-liberal nerd school where socially awkward behavior was permissible and sometimes even encouraged I wouldn't have these problems interacting with my boss. If only I hadn't studied anthropology, if I had previous work experience that gave me skills other than child care, maybe I'd have a job that was respected and fairly compensated. If only I had mythical concrete skills, maybe I'd have been able to stay in the cheaper city I'd lived in previously instead of being forced into DC's bonkers rental market.
Choosing my college was, up until then, the biggest decision I'd had full agency over. So it somehow followed in my mind that I'd brought my post-college misery upon myself by making a bad college choice. Nope, just turns out that working for an abuser, and figuring out the social rules of job hunting and interviewing, and learning to feed yourself and take care of your health and pay bills independently--that's a ton to juggle all at once. It made me want to shut down and scream at the world and grasp for little things I could control because the world felt so large and overwhelming. Wishing I'd chosen my school or my courses better was just a proxy for wanting better control over everything else in my life that was going to shit.
I realize this now because I eventually got a second degree in nursing, one of the archetypal practical applied fields, and anyone in this field will tell you that you might as well know nothing going into your first job. Memes about how "nursing school didn't prepare me for [x]" show up all over social media. I have a feeling that no course of practical schooling would satisfy David's desires, and this video is really about other things in his life that he feels helpless in the face of.
posted by ActionPopulated at 3:40 PM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
I fell solidly into the "why didn't I learn any real life skills in school" camp for a good few years after I got my first degree. And I think I knew deep down, even then, that the problem wasn't that I had truly learned nothing practical. The problem was having graduated into a shit economy, and having an abusive boss the likes of whom I had never faced before, and having precarious housing, and feeling helpless in the face of all that. Only problem was, there was nothing I could do to undo the financial crash of 2008, or convince my boss that I wasn't incurable socially stunted, or make stable housing easier to find. So I made up origins for my problems that began with college. If only I hadn't gone to a super-liberal nerd school where socially awkward behavior was permissible and sometimes even encouraged I wouldn't have these problems interacting with my boss. If only I hadn't studied anthropology, if I had previous work experience that gave me skills other than child care, maybe I'd have a job that was respected and fairly compensated. If only I had mythical concrete skills, maybe I'd have been able to stay in the cheaper city I'd lived in previously instead of being forced into DC's bonkers rental market.
Choosing my college was, up until then, the biggest decision I'd had full agency over. So it somehow followed in my mind that I'd brought my post-college misery upon myself by making a bad college choice. Nope, just turns out that working for an abuser, and figuring out the social rules of job hunting and interviewing, and learning to feed yourself and take care of your health and pay bills independently--that's a ton to juggle all at once. It made me want to shut down and scream at the world and grasp for little things I could control because the world felt so large and overwhelming. Wishing I'd chosen my school or my courses better was just a proxy for wanting better control over everything else in my life that was going to shit.
I realize this now because I eventually got a second degree in nursing, one of the archetypal practical applied fields, and anyone in this field will tell you that you might as well know nothing going into your first job. Memes about how "nursing school didn't prepare me for [x]" show up all over social media. I have a feeling that no course of practical schooling would satisfy David's desires, and this video is really about other things in his life that he feels helpless in the face of.
posted by ActionPopulated at 3:40 PM on January 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
Gosh, I just hear so much pain in this video.
That is an interesting perspective. Thank you for it.
Another thing that occurs to me is the pain of social alienation. We live in a very complex and difficult society; it's simply unreasonable, I think, to expect any one person to know all of it. It should be normal and expected that we go to our family, and our friends, with questions about how to do things.
But for a lot of reasons, including an economy that encourages social alienation and instability, many of us don't have those networks to draw on.
Someone on MetaFilter once said something like, You never really become an adult, you just learn how to deal with more situations. But that learning process is never over, because we're all encountering new situations.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:17 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
That is an interesting perspective. Thank you for it.
Another thing that occurs to me is the pain of social alienation. We live in a very complex and difficult society; it's simply unreasonable, I think, to expect any one person to know all of it. It should be normal and expected that we go to our family, and our friends, with questions about how to do things.
But for a lot of reasons, including an economy that encourages social alienation and instability, many of us don't have those networks to draw on.
Someone on MetaFilter once said something like, You never really become an adult, you just learn how to deal with more situations. But that learning process is never over, because we're all encountering new situations.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:17 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I made it all of 15 seconds into that. When I went to school, I learned that reading books teaches you stuff. Read a book. Or read a few thousand. That way you can teach yourself.
posted by New England Cultist at 9:07 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by New England Cultist at 9:07 AM on January 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
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posted by oheso at 4:43 AM on January 4, 2017 [4 favorites]