Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

January 17, 2017 1:32 PM

New York Times President Obama on Tuesday largely commuted the remaining prison sentence of Chelsea Manning.
posted by freakazoid (190 comments total)

Chelsea Manning, the ex-Army analyst who gave files to WikiLeaks, will be freed in May.

President Obama is commuting her sentence
posted by freakazoid at 1:33 PM on January 17, 2017 [16 favorites]

Great news. It's obvious that she's suffering and that the next president could only make it worse.
posted by Emma May Smith at 1:33 PM on January 17, 2017 [12 favorites]

I only wish she could somehow be released before Friday instead of May.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:33 PM on January 17, 2017 [70 favorites]

Excellent news.
posted by homunculus at 1:35 PM on January 17, 2017

And for those wondering about Snowden:

Asked about the two clemency applications on Friday, the White House spokesman, Joshua Earnest, discussed the “pretty stark difference” between Ms. Manning’s case for mercy with Mr. Snowden’s. While their offenses were similar, he said, there were “some important differences.”

“Chelsea Manning is somebody who went through the military criminal justice process, was exposed to due process, was found guilty, was sentenced for her crimes, and she acknowledged wrongdoing,” he said. “Mr. Snowden fled into the arms of an adversary, and has sought refuge in a country that most recently made a concerted effort to undermine confidence in our democracy.”

posted by Celsius1414 at 1:36 PM on January 17, 2017 [53 favorites]

yeah, i'm glad she'll be released but like. god. i'm so fucking scared that by may there will be no chance of this happening.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:36 PM on January 17, 2017 [32 favorites]

A Plea to President Obama: Pardon Edward Snowden. The choice is simple: pardon him, or abandon him to the mercy of Trump.
posted by homunculus at 1:36 PM on January 17, 2017 [11 favorites]

Snowden next, please. (Sorry, for simultaneous post)
posted by falsedmitri at 1:36 PM on January 17, 2017

This is the best news I've heard in a long time. She is a hero.
posted by brecc at 1:36 PM on January 17, 2017 [14 favorites]

Yeah, this gave me pause: "But President-elect Donald J. Trump mocked that change as excessively “politically correct,” raising the possibility that he will rescind it."
posted by jetsetsc at 1:36 PM on January 17, 2017 [1 favorite]

OMGOMGOMGOMG!!!!! I was so so so praying he was going to do this at the 11th hour!!! omgOMG!!!

I hope some day she does a tour of the country so I can personally thank her for her bravery and sacrifice. A hero.

(Now to read the details of the story...)
posted by latkes at 1:37 PM on January 17, 2017 [1 favorite]

I literally just wrote an email to the White House to thank Obama for this. I was surprised by how much the news moved me. But I don't think there is any doubt Manning would die in prison, and I am always moved by even the smallest acts of compassion, never mind the sort of compassionate acts that only a president could do.
posted by maxsparber at 1:37 PM on January 17, 2017 [11 favorites]

Holy shit yes. I was just talking about how I didn't think this would happen but THERE IT IS.
posted by rachaelfaith at 1:39 PM on January 17, 2017 [4 favorites]

209 today. This puts the number of commuted sentences by Obama up to 1385.

Oscar López Rivera is out too.
posted by zabuni at 1:41 PM on January 17, 2017 [19 favorites]

Obama is my hero and he's going out with grace and compassion. I wish he would do the same for Edward Snowden (who is also my hero).
posted by bluesky43 at 1:41 PM on January 17, 2017 [3 favorites]

I'm not sure that Obama deserves much credit for compassion. He could have done this years ago, and should have.

"Better late than never" is damning when late meant years of inhumane treatment.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:42 PM on January 17, 2017 [31 favorites]

Alice Marie Johnson next.
posted by BurntHombre at 1:42 PM on January 17, 2017

I'm not sure that Obama deserves much credit for compassion. He could have done this years ago, and should have.

I'll credit him for what he does today, even while recognizing that he could have done more and better in the past.
posted by maxsparber at 1:44 PM on January 17, 2017 [89 favorites]

As Lin-Manuel Miranda tweeted just now:

Sobbing with gratitude here in London.
OSCAR LOPEZ RIVERA IS COMING HOME.
THANK YOU, @POTUS.
🇵🇷

NPR: Pardon Sought For Prisoner Who Fought For Puerto Rican Independence
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:44 PM on January 17, 2017 [28 favorites]

I'm so glad that this is finally happening. It's so long overdue.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:45 PM on January 17, 2017

So this means Julian Assange will agree to be extradited, right?
posted by teraflop at 1:46 PM on January 17, 2017 [50 favorites]

I'm still terrified for her safety. A lot can happen in 5 months, especially considering the Orange Menace.

She should really be freed immediately. I don't at all trust the incoming administration to honour this deal.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 1:46 PM on January 17, 2017 [27 favorites]

Such great news. I hope she can hang on until May.
posted by Constant Reader at 1:47 PM on January 17, 2017 [2 favorites]

Sentence was, if anything, light to begin with and Manning deserved to serve it out. Disappointed in Obama for this
posted by knoyers at 1:50 PM on January 17, 2017 [5 favorites]

Obama spends his entire term in office waging a concerted war against whistleblowers, and then exits, pardoning one? Is this something like contrition?

The guy continues to baffle me.
posted by ryanshepard at 1:52 PM on January 17, 2017 [29 favorites]

Y @MMViverito, when you talk to Don Oscar, díle I've got a show for him in Chicago. It'll be my honor to play Hamilton the night he goes.

--@Lin_Manuel
posted by zachlipton at 1:52 PM on January 17, 2017 [27 favorites]

It was a functionally a death sentence. So, no, not a light sentence, and serving it out would have meant she died.
posted by maxsparber at 1:52 PM on January 17, 2017 [27 favorites]

Fantastic news all around today. That's a huge Thanks, Obama.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:53 PM on January 17, 2017

She should really be freed immediately. I don't at all trust the incoming administration to honour this deal.

especially considering pence's beliefs on how to deal with any aspect of LGBT rights.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:53 PM on January 17, 2017 [7 favorites]

I don't at all trust the incoming administration to honour this deal.

Even if they could take it back, which I'm not sure they can, Putin and Assange want Manning out of jail, so I'm sure Trump will fall in line.
posted by saturday_morning at 1:54 PM on January 17, 2017 [8 favorites]

If she does get out as planned, her physical safety is a real issue in Trump's America. I hope her lawyers are looking into asylum somewhere.
posted by Countess Elena at 1:55 PM on January 17, 2017 [8 favorites]

Despite the horror and terror that everyone paying attention to reality (and particularly those in the US) is feeling with regards the new administration, I don't think that reneging on this would be politically expedient, even if it were lawful. There's no particular gain to Trump in creating a huge furore simply in order to hurt Chelsea Manning, and while he's erratic, he has been elected president, not dictator. Lots of terrible things will happen, but I think we can be reasonably confident that Chelsea Manning will get her freedom. I hope so. I feel a palpable relief at the thought of some amelioration of her misery and an end to the cruelty of her imprisonment .
posted by howfar at 1:55 PM on January 17, 2017 [3 favorites]

I seriously doubt Julian Assange or Vladmir Putin give a shit about Manning except as a club to hit Obama with.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 1:55 PM on January 17, 2017 [41 favorites]

saturday_morning, why would Putin particularly want that? I hadn't thought of this.
posted by Countess Elena at 1:56 PM on January 17, 2017

Yeah, this gave me pause: "But President-elect Donald J. Trump mocked that change as excessively “politically correct,” raising the possibility that he will rescind it."

Not that everything about Donald Trump shouldn't give one pause, but this was actually about the decision of the military not discharging transgender soldiers in case that's not clear.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:56 PM on January 17, 2017 [3 favorites]

The guy continues to baffle me.

He knows it looks good for him and he's given Trump plenty of time to take it back. He's as transparent as ever.
posted by darksasami at 1:57 PM on January 17, 2017 [4 favorites]

35 years in prison was not a "light sentence" by any definition.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 1:57 PM on January 17, 2017 [57 favorites]

Do any lawyers know if a commutation can be taken back by the next President?
posted by Mavri at 1:59 PM on January 17, 2017 [3 favorites]

“Mr. Snowden fled into the arms of an adversary, and has sought refuge in a country that most recently made a concerted effort to undermine confidence in our democracy.”

Just to respond to this oft-repeated lie dropped by the White House Press Secretary, Snowden did not "fle[e] into the arms of an adversary", the United States government revoked his passport while he was in Moscow's airport during a layover for a flight to Ecuador. The United States government stranded him in Russia.
posted by indubitable at 2:00 PM on January 17, 2017 [106 favorites]

I don't think that reneging on this would be politically expedient, even if it were lawful.

they don't have to renege on this in order to kill her within the next 5 months. pence believes in torturing lgbt people until they kill themselves or until they are brainwashed into thinking that they are cis or hetero after all. i'm sure he considers either option a success story.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:00 PM on January 17, 2017 [10 favorites]

From what I've been reading, there is no way to rescind a pardon/commutation within the Constitution. Now, Fuckface has shown he doesn't give a shit about the Constitution, so we still need to be vigilant, but it would be quite unprecedented.
posted by kmz at 2:01 PM on January 17, 2017 [13 favorites]

Pretty sure it can't.

This decision unquestionably saved her life.
posted by praemunire at 2:02 PM on January 17, 2017 [3 favorites]

The United States government marooned him in Russia.

No, he marooned himself in Russia. He's always had the option of returning to the US.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:03 PM on January 17, 2017 [36 favorites]

But she could still be charged with a new crime in the future, sending her back to prison.
posted by dilaudid at 2:03 PM on January 17, 2017 [2 favorites]

why would Putin particularly want that? I hadn't thought of this.

Well, Wikileaks and Manning are allies, and Putin and Wikileaks are allies, I guess. And leaks and whistleblowing that weaken the US's security policy and foreign adventures, however justified, are definitely in Putin's interest.

Just my speculation, though -- I realize my tone was that of someone who confidently knows what they're talking about which I definitely do not.
posted by saturday_morning at 2:04 PM on January 17, 2017 [2 favorites]

Oh, fuck yes. A little light in the darkness.
posted by SansPoint at 2:05 PM on January 17, 2017 [1 favorite]

No, he marooned himself in Russia. He's always had the option of returning to the US.

The statement was, "He fled into the arms of an adversary". He was fleeing to Ecuador. Does the US government consider Ecuador an adversary? If so, that would be news to me.
posted by indubitable at 2:08 PM on January 17, 2017 [21 favorites]

But she could still be charged with a new crime in the future, sending her back to prison.

Yeah, I said a little of this in the election thread, but I really wonder why May vs immediately. That's a lot of time in jail that allows for potential future UCMJ charges.
posted by corb at 2:08 PM on January 17, 2017 [3 favorites]

That is great news. I am very to hear that her suffering will end soon. I hope she makes a shit load of money on a tell all book and a movie.
posted by mondo dentro at 2:09 PM on January 17, 2017 [1 favorite]

My immediate reaction was HELL YES

My second reaction is LET HER OUT NOW DAMMIT
posted by Existential Dread at 2:10 PM on January 17, 2017 [16 favorites]

I agree that she should be freed immediately, and will also express extreme doubt in the Trump administration's ability to follow through on this. She should have been freed years ago, and while I am happy that Obama has commuted much of her sentence, it is so late in the game I had already given up. It feels like something that happened after much foot-dragging, rather than something anyone (other than trans advocates and allies) particularly wanted to happen.

My fingers will remain crossed that she actually gets to be free and have a life.
posted by byanyothername at 2:12 PM on January 17, 2017 [2 favorites]

I seriously doubt Julian Assange or Vladmir Putin give a shit about Manning except as a club to hit Obama with.

Manning was happy to be a club.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:12 PM on January 17, 2017 [3 favorites]

I am so happy to hear this. I hope that the rest of her life is one of hope and happiness.
posted by Elly Vortex at 2:12 PM on January 17, 2017 [5 favorites]

Well, Wikileaks and Manning are allies, and Putin and Wikileaks are allies, I guess.

I'd argue that the organization that wikileaks was is not what wikileaks is at this point in time. While flawed, it presented itself as a secretive organization that vetted and responsibly released documents pulling back the veil on agreements and actions of questionable legality. Whether things were as vetted and redacted to protect those not culpable for ills is debatable, but that was their stated intention.

They've gone from that to a group that dumps documents with what seems like an agenda to shape power, not draw attention to abuses of power. If there was anyone left with enough pull to knock Assange out of the role (it's gone from wikileaks to "Assange's wikileaks") they're not doing it and their credibility is shot. I'm guessing he has control of servers/domains and who knows what else. Or nearly everyone else quit and it's Assange tweeting conspiracies unrelated to their posted evidence.

The group Chelsea Manning worked with isn't even a recognizable entity and tarring her with whatever they're doing today is unfounded.
posted by mikeh at 2:15 PM on January 17, 2017 [75 favorites]

Can Trump revert it? As I think if anyone will be needing to issue questionable pardons at the end of their Presidency it'll be him.
posted by Damienmce at 2:15 PM on January 17, 2017 [3 favorites]

In 2012 I refused to donate to Obama's campaign or vote for him again because of the conditions in which she was being held, and said so in emails to the White House.

My feelings about him are still complicated, but god damn this is good news for her.
posted by Beardman at 2:16 PM on January 17, 2017 [7 favorites]

One small candle in the darkness. Thanks, Obama; thanks, Chelsea.
posted by nicebookrack at 2:16 PM on January 17, 2017 [5 favorites]

That is absolutely charming.

Mr. Earnests illogical statement regarding Snowden, less so.

“Mr. Snowden fled into the arms of an adversary, and has sought refuge in a country that most recently made a concerted effort to undermine confidence in our democracy.”

should read as "We leaned on our allies to make sure that more savory places of refuge would refuse to help Mr. Snowden and now we make a big noise about the fact that he accepted the one place of refuge that was left.

Also, refugees are expected to be able to foresee the future and take into account the politics of their host country for the next ten years because we will inexplicably hold them responsible for those future policies."
posted by Ashenmote at 2:18 PM on January 17, 2017 [26 favorites]

This was definitely an "if you do anything before you go, for fuck's sake" for me - credit for doing it and I hope she gets a second act.
posted by atoxyl at 2:20 PM on January 17, 2017 [2 favorites]

He was fleeing to Ecuador. Does the US government consider Ecuador an adversary?

Snowden was fleeing to Ecuador because it's one of the few places that rarely ever extradites to the United States. He was fleeing to avoid capture and prosecution[*]. In the end he fled to an enemy, but let's not forget that by being in and accepting assistance from China he was already working with a country for whom 'adversary' is an appropriate designator.

[*] I understand that, given Obama's penchant for waging an all-out war on whistleblowers, he may have felt the move was necessary. That may explain, but doesn't negate that he chose to run quite deliberately and in a clearly premeditated fashion.
posted by mystyk at 2:21 PM on January 17, 2017 [11 favorites]

*tears of joy*
posted by Annika Cicada at 2:21 PM on January 17, 2017 [7 favorites]

The group Chelsea Manning worked with isn't even a recognizable entity and tarring her with whatever they're doing today is unfounded.

I'm not trying to tar Manning with the stain of the current incarnation of Wikileaks, but her release is still good news for the organization as it currently exists.

I'm not against what Obama did, mind you. I think it takes extra courage to do the right thing when your enemies have their reasons for wanting you to do it.
posted by saturday_morning at 2:22 PM on January 17, 2017 [1 favorite]

Who even cares about Assange's stupid personality cult any more? They're not relevant to this story of Manning's commutation.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:26 PM on January 17, 2017 [9 favorites]

> There's no particular gain to Trump in creating a huge furore simply in order to hurt Chelsea Manning

The gain to him is he's a petulant child and he'd do it just to annoy people. We elected a troll to the White House. He doesn't care about furors.

But I hope he restrains himself. And I'm so glad Obama did this (though I wish he'd done it ages ago).
posted by rtha at 2:28 PM on January 17, 2017 [5 favorites]

I seriously doubt Julian Assange or Vladmir Putin give a shit about Manning except as a club to hit Obama with.

Manning was happy to be a club.

I doubt that Manning was trying to glorify Putin's Russia and tear down liberal democracy through her actions and characterizing her as a vindictive Putinist is a pretty terrible thing to do.
posted by Copronymus at 2:31 PM on January 17, 2017 [54 favorites]

Who even cares about Assange's stupid personality cult any more? They're not relevant to this story of Manning's commutation.

Of course they are. Manning and WikiLeaks are tied together in a pretty direct way, and to pretend otherwise is nonsensical. Neither would have the significance they possess without the other. That doesn't make the relationship straightforward, necessarily, but it exists.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:34 PM on January 17, 2017 [3 favorites]

My second reaction is LET HER OUT NOW DAMMIT

My first reaction was LET HER OUT NOW DAMMIT!

My second reaction was RUN. RUN LIKE HELL.

Same with Rivera.

I'm a bit conflicted about Rivera's release. I agree he was a political prisoner. I believe he doesn't belong in prison. I would be comfortable with requiring that he be *exiled* to Puerto Rico. I don't KNOW that he was involved in the bombings that might have been deliberate or simply (simply!) manslaughter. However, he was convicted, and served for those crimes that he was convicted of, and now deserves the release.

Snowdon, ehh? Don't know enough about his motives to decide one way or another. My fault for not being well educated enough on the issue.
posted by BlueHorse at 2:35 PM on January 17, 2017

I doubt that Manning was trying to glorify Putin's Russia and tear down liberal democracy through her actions and characterizing her as a vindictive Putinist is a pretty terrible thing to do.

I consider Manning a useful idiot who was happy to hurt the US government. If I am to give Snowden credit for being a "careful" leaker then I am happy to give her credit as a foolish one.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:36 PM on January 17, 2017 [4 favorites]

I consider Manning a useful idiot who was happy to hurt the US government.

It's always easy to ascribe contemptible motives to someone else.
posted by maxsparber at 2:43 PM on January 17, 2017 [18 favorites]

I'd like to think I'm also considering her effects.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:45 PM on January 17, 2017 [1 favorite]

To the extent that the US government was hurt by Manning's leaks, the US government fucking deserved it.

That Assange exploited Manning to build his personality cult and then left her out in the cold is a discredit to Assange, not to Chelsea Manning.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:45 PM on January 17, 2017 [63 favorites]

She has explained her motives, and you haven't demonstrated otherwise.
posted by maxsparber at 2:45 PM on January 17, 2017 [11 favorites]

The US government's actions hurt the US government. Chelsea Manning appeared to be acting out of conscience, considering the atrocities committed in the Iraq folly, and I would never condemn her for that.
posted by Existential Dread at 2:46 PM on January 17, 2017 [33 favorites]

I don't think of Chelsea as a hero, but her crime in no way deserves punishment with 35 years of literal torture. This commutation is the humane thing to do and I am happy for her.
posted by xyzzy at 2:48 PM on January 17, 2017 [11 favorites]

Let me add: The US government's actions hurt the US government, due to the fact that we were never intended to find out about these actions and we did because of Manning. The administration went happily on their way slaughtering civilians and as apathetic Americans we were comfortable in our ignorance. Manning's actions changed all of that.
posted by Existential Dread at 2:49 PM on January 17, 2017 [52 favorites]

Chelsea Manning is literally a prisoner of conscience.
posted by ethansr at 2:49 PM on January 17, 2017 [12 favorites]

I did a paper, when I was in law school, on transgender people in the criminal justice system, and it was a hellish bit just to research it. I don't care what they did, anybody who's had to live through that who isn't a current danger to the public deserves at least this much. As long as one of the two major parties in the US is openly in favor of the sort of egregious cruelty that goes on in the name of refusing to recognize people's gender identities, there is no just way to leave a trans woman in this system and call it justice, and my only regret here is how many others are being left to the wolves.

If it's about punishing the guilty, then she's already gotten as much of that as any civil society should be capable of giving, and then some. Years in a men's prison. Dear lord, that we let that kind of thing happen. This is the sort of thing that people are going to look back on a hundred years from now with absolute horror.
posted by Sequence at 2:53 PM on January 17, 2017 [39 favorites]

I would never condemn her for that.

That's fine, and we will not meet on this. But plenty of deplorable things have been done out of conscience. Indeed, I would assume that someone who had been used by others might have quite sincere motives. I am more moved (though not significantly) by the notion that what Manning exposed had value, and that her treatment has been cruel. (More significantly.)
posted by Going To Maine at 2:54 PM on January 17, 2017 [1 favorite]

If she does get out as planned, her physical safety is a real issue in Trump's America. I hope her lawyers are looking into asylum somewhere.

Isn't she a British citizen?
posted by Emma May Smith at 2:56 PM on January 17, 2017

Is Guantanamo going to close in the next three days?
posted by pashdown at 3:01 PM on January 17, 2017 [3 favorites]

In my Constitutional Law class, we briefly mentioned President Bush's attempt to revoke a pardon in 2008. I refreshed my memory with this editorial. It seems like revocation of a presidential pardon (or of a commutation) is very rare, and that the justification hinges on the pardoned individual's receipt of the actual, physical document.

So if Chelsea Manning receives a paper copy of the pardon before Trump realizes what's going on and/or takes office, she's in a much more secure position than she would be otherwise. I'm still worried about President Trump's respect for legal norms, and about the months she'll need to spend in prison before release, and I'm definitely not an expert. But that's my best understanding of the situation.
posted by Leslie Knope at 3:05 PM on January 17, 2017 [6 favorites]

Snowden will be useful to Trump for one thing: to invite the nominally newly “free” Assange (with no option to realistically decline) as a guest of honour to his execution, to underscore the fact that he is not relieved of his obligations to his handlers, and that bad things happen to you if you cross Trump/Putin.

(Afterward, rumours will emerge that the firing squad were instructed to aim for the wrong side of Snowden's chest, for extra effect.)
posted by acb at 3:11 PM on January 17, 2017 [1 favorite]

A Long List of What We Know Thanks to Private Manning
posted by straight at 3:11 PM on January 17, 2017 [36 favorites]

I consider Manning a useful idiot who was happy to hurt the US government. If I am to give Snowden credit for being a "careful" leaker then I am happy to give her credit as a foolish one.

Does it benefit Putin when the moral uprightness of U.S. policy looks dubious? Yeah. Does that mean we should strive for more humane policy or that we should double down on suppressing evidence? Hmmmm...
posted by atoxyl at 3:18 PM on January 17, 2017 [17 favorites]

Her mother was Welsh, so she is probably a British citizen by descent, yes.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 3:21 PM on January 17, 2017 [1 favorite]

Manning may have had to renounce British citizenship to be in intelligence. They usually don't let you if you are a dual citizen.
posted by corb at 3:34 PM on January 17, 2017 [5 favorites]

To the extent that the US government was hurt by Manning's leaks, the US government fucking deserved it.

Yep. Like, I don't like corporal punishment as a rule, but at the same time some children need to be spanked.
posted by rhizome at 3:38 PM on January 17, 2017

The incoming dictator will make sure she doesn't actually get out - anyone still thinking this is going to be a _presidency_ doesn't understand what is about to happen. And for the record, I would like nothing more than to be completely wrong about my assessment, truly.
posted by dbiedny at 3:39 PM on January 17, 2017

And I'm sure that regardless of your feelings about Manning, Trump's pardons are going to be ridiculous.
posted by rhizome at 3:40 PM on January 17, 2017 [3 favorites]

Earnest made a political statement, but there are big structural differences between Manning and Snowden. While the President CAN pardon someone before they've been charged, the part about Manning having been "exposed to due process" seems like a big difference. Sure, maybe the reason would be different and the result the same if Snowden had submitted to the jurisdiction of the federal courts, but commuting a sentence of someone serving time and pardoning someone who hadn't yet gone to court are pretty different things.
posted by atomicstone at 3:44 PM on January 17, 2017 [8 favorites]

The nature of Manning's treatment, not as much her actions, is what ultimately led to the pardon, and why there likewise won't be one for Snowden.

Just to be clear, Manning is not being pardoned, her sentence is being commuted.
posted by tobascodagama at 3:45 PM on January 17, 2017 [7 favorites]

I have a nuanced opinion of this pardon, but ultimately think it was the right move, not as much for a condoning of Manning's actions but as at least some form of retribution for the inhumane isolation and effective abuse of an American citizen for years, and the removal of what, yes, as many have noted, would have effectively been a death sentence. The nature of Manning's treatment, not as much her actions, is what ultimately led to the pardon, and why there likewise won't be one for Snowden.

He didn't actually pardon Chelsea. He commuted the rest of her sentence.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:45 PM on January 17, 2017 [4 favorites]

And I'm sure that regardless of your feelings about Manning, Trump's pardons are going to be ridiculous.

Do presidents still get to issue pardons while being impeached?
posted by rocket88 at 3:46 PM on January 17, 2017 [2 favorites]

He knows it looks good for him and he's given Trump plenty of time to take it back. He's as transparent as ever.

The stinging critique is this is like in Game of Thrones type political stories where the antagonist lets the potential martyr free, because the optics of that soothes an uninformed populace, while he and his forces are materially machinating away the fabric of civilization by expanding a corrupt military-surveillance-industrial complex. But those are just fantasy stories.
posted by polymodus at 3:47 PM on January 17, 2017 [4 favorites]

Manning having been "exposed to due process" seems like a big difference

Sure, it's a difference he's using as a rationale, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be reasoned out more charitably to Snowden.
posted by rhizome at 3:47 PM on January 17, 2017

Will Putin's inauguration present for Trump be Snowden's head?
posted by blue_beetle at 3:56 PM on January 17, 2017

Manning was happy to be a club.

[as I grow despondent and suicidal in solitary confinement] Ah! It is glorious to serve the motherland!
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 3:57 PM on January 17, 2017 [10 favorites]

I'm tired of people complaining about Obama not doing enough. Obama has been successfully fighting off a forest fire with a squirt gun for 8 years and people have criticized his aim. Obama wasn't elected dictator. Now we'll see how people like someone who was.
posted by bongo_x at 3:58 PM on January 17, 2017 [70 favorites]

Per the NYT, the delay is standard and is intended to allow the person time to arrange for a place to live, work, etc. Less of a problem for a high-profile person like Manning, but it seems to be fairly common.
posted by Etrigan at 4:05 PM on January 17, 2017 [16 favorites]

Obama wasn't elected dictator.

He wouldn't need to be. Granting pardons and commuting prison sentences is well within the established powers of the President. As we can plainly see here. It is completely reasonable to ask why others who have been convicted under the Federal system did not receive the same treatment.
posted by indubitable at 4:09 PM on January 17, 2017 [4 favorites]

Manning was happy to be a club.

[as I grow despondent and suicidal in solitary confinement] Ah! It is glorious to serve the motherland!

Once one has been subjected to cruel and unusual punishment, being a club is perhaps less appealing. (Not that this makes the punishment less cruel or unusual.)
posted by Going To Maine at 4:18 PM on January 17, 2017

I think Obama's reason for doing this is to throw another burning firecracker into the Trump administration. This is a lose-lose situation for Trump -- either he reverses the commutation (sparking a lengthy legal battle and accusations of abuse of power), or he lets her go (making him look like even more of a friend of Putin).
posted by miyabo at 4:24 PM on January 17, 2017 [7 favorites]

While Manning has evidently received cruel and unusual punishment, the case for commutation is not a simple one. I mean, Manning, Snowden and Assange are in part responsible for the culture of leaking that influenced the last American election.

Transparency, accountability and the right to privacy are of course supremely important, but on the whole the Wikileaks era has become so very corrosive to democracy and even the sovereignty of nation-states.

Not an easy decision for Obama to "pardon" (if that is the correct term) Manning...
posted by My Dad at 4:32 PM on January 17, 2017 [2 favorites]

Personal context: I'm a gay, and when I read the headline, you have to imagine the feeling of relief I felt about this.
posted by polymodus at 4:41 PM on January 17, 2017 [1 favorite]

Mod note: knoyers, there's no need to repeat yourself.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 4:48 PM on January 17, 2017

Let's just be happy with the music while the ship of State sinks below our feet. We'll be swimming in the icy waters soon enough.
posted by humanfont at 5:07 PM on January 17, 2017 [3 favorites]

I would be comfortable with requiring that [Rivera] be *exiled* to Puerto Rico.

I'm wondering if that's possible, given Puerto Rico is part of the United States. Can you exile someone to Texas or California? Or perhaps DC is a better example, since it also doesn't have statehood.
posted by politikitty at 5:12 PM on January 17, 2017 [2 favorites]

That's a lot of time in jail that allows for potential future UCMJ charges.

Maybe someone can correct me, but can't she be charged in civilian criminal court as well? I don't think double jeopardy applies between UCMJ and federal criminal charges.
posted by miyabo at 5:13 PM on January 17, 2017

We don't exile American citizens, yet.

Voluntary exile is a whole other thing.
posted by spitbull at 5:13 PM on January 17, 2017

Obama to "pardon" (if that is the correct term) Manning..

No, the correct term is "commute." Manning still remains a convicted felon.
posted by spitbull at 5:15 PM on January 17, 2017 [2 favorites]

I'm tired of people complaining about Obama not doing enough. Obama has been successfully fighting off a forest fire with a squirt gun for 8 years and people have criticized his aim

Obama deserves a lot of credit for achievements but that doesn't mean he should get off the hook for areas where he sucked. He has presided over the worst adminstration with regards to compliance with FOIA since it came to exist, and has been a hellmouth for whistleblowers. Being angry about the disparity between that and commuting Manning's sentence - while still being glad he did it - is eminently reasonable.
posted by phearlez at 5:23 PM on January 17, 2017 [21 favorites]

While Manning has evidently received cruel and unusual punishment, the case for commutation is not a simple one. I mean, Manning, Snowden and Assange are in part responsible for the culture of leaking that influenced the last American election.

Honestly, I wouldn't have been in favor of commutation if Clinton won - I really do think the crimes Manning committed are serious, and the 'firehose' type leak did not allow for protection of active assets.

But I'm pretty sure this is Obama's equivalent of smuggling Manning out before the Trumpocalypse, so I'm not mad about it.
posted by corb at 5:28 PM on January 17, 2017 [10 favorites]

To me, Manning is no hero. Manning deliberately broke the law. While I appreciate that the information she released was important for the American people, the end does not justify the means. To me, the only question is did/does the punishment fit the crime? I do not have the ability to determine if 7 years or 35 years or any other amount of time is appropriate, but continuing to hold Manning serves no material purpose other than retribution at this point. I am not big on retribution for non violent crimes. While I don't think I would have commuted the sentence, I have no quarrel with the outgoing dictator doing what he thought appropriate. That is his right.
posted by AugustWest at 5:58 PM on January 17, 2017 [1 favorite]

What.

The punishment in this case was not just the extraordinary amount of time she was given, but also the fact that she is being held in a men's prison. This is definitely cruel and unusual.
posted by sockermom at 6:06 PM on January 17, 2017 [20 favorites]

The incoming dictator will make sure she doesn't actually get out - anyone still thinking this is going to be a _presidency_

So okay Trump's bad, but if he is going to be a dictator, wouldn't having control of the military already be a thing? I'm thinking he gets Article 25ed before mid terms, a deal is struck and a Democrat is selected as VP.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:13 PM on January 17, 2017

I have complicated feelings about Manning's actions, having grown up in a family where military service and the things that come with it are taken with a great deal of seriousness (I'm willing to accept that it's probably not a good thing, but it's there for me nonetheless). Her actions are pretty cut and dried and not in dispute, and often part of civil disobedience is bearing an unjust punishment.

In this case, however, her punishment was not unjust because the laws she broke were unjust, it was unjust in its specifics and how it was carried out. Prolonged solitary confinement is unjust. Refusing to recognize her identity is unjust. Frankly, much of what goes on at Fort Leavenworth is unjust. That's the issue to me.

I'm glad she had her sentence commuted, she does not deserve to die for her actions by any means, and that's what that was at the end of the day. I'm glad she wasn't pardoned, because, to my mind, what she did was wrong, no matter the intentions or how much I agree with those intentions.

I feel complicated about everything with her but this. This is the one clear right thing in this whole mess. I can only hope she finds someplace safe to recover and find a new life.
posted by neonrev at 6:22 PM on January 17, 2017 [9 favorites]

She did the right thing. Those journalists were murdered by our government, and she made us aware of that.
posted by oceanjesse at 6:37 PM on January 17, 2017 [20 favorites]

Good.
posted by Gelatin at 6:52 PM on January 17, 2017

I'm thinking he gets Article 25ed before mid terms

I'm guessing you're referring to Section 4 of the 25th Amendment, and I seriously doubt that's an issue. There's very little chance of Pence, or Trump's Cabinet, or another body designated by the Republican Congress declaring Trump unfit, or 2/3 of both Houses ratifying Trump's unfitness. He'd have to have done something incredibly crazy (even by his standards) to get the Republicans to remove their own President.

Instead of pondering extreme long-shots, every ounce of effort should be focused on gaining ground in the midterms and laying the groundwork for Presidential victory in 2020.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:59 PM on January 17, 2017 [7 favorites]

I'm guessing you're referring to Section 4 of the 25th Amendment

I just don't think he's healthy.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:08 PM on January 17, 2017

To me, Manning is no hero. Manning deliberately broke the law.

That's a nice simple rubric.
posted by Lexica at 7:09 PM on January 17, 2017 [13 favorites]

To me, Manning is no hero. Manning deliberately broke the law.

That's a nice simple rubric.
posted by Lexica at 7:09 PM on January 17 [+] [!]

And particularly apropos, a day after MLK day.
posted by klanawa at 7:20 PM on January 17, 2017 [39 favorites]

To me, Manning is no hero. Manning deliberately broke the law.
I'm fascinated by this. We just celebrated MLK, a man who, as part of his heroism, systematically broke the law as an attempt to bring attention to the inherent injustices and wrongdoing in the system that contained those laws. Granted, there are many, many differences, but isn't their something essential here. And isn't it just this question about the nature of heroism that many will need to ask themselves in coming days?
( off of soapbox )
posted by pt68 at 7:22 PM on January 17, 2017 [23 favorites]

mrjohnmuller: "I'm still terrified for her safety. A lot can happen in 5 months, especially considering the Orange Menace.

She should really be freed immediately. I don't at all trust the incoming administration to honour this deal."

Wouldn't that sort of thing be covered under double jeopardy?
posted by Samizdata at 7:47 PM on January 17, 2017

Just to be clear - Manning allowed the ruled to see what the rulers thought of them. It wasn't horrible things the CIA or Dept. State was doing that set off the Arab Spring... it was a clear picture as to what the despots were doing to their own people, presented in clear and unguarded language by a power hostile to the notion of authoritarian despots, but putting up with it for commercial and strategic purpose.

Manning isn't to blame for the Arab Spring. Manning isn't to blame for ISIL. Manning isn't to blame for Libya or Syria.

No, this goes back to Bush the Elder. Iraq I was a war of choice, just like Iraq II. I have a daughter in the first grade, and I am certain she will send her first son or daughter off to Iraq to die as a soldier.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:53 PM on January 17, 2017 [10 favorites]

phearlez: "I'm tired of people complaining about Obama not doing enough. Obama has been successfully fighting off a forest fire with a squirt gun for 8 years and people have criticized his aim

Obama deserves a lot of credit for achievements but that doesn't mean he should get off the hook for areas where he sucked. He has presided over the worst adminstration with regards to compliance with FOIA since it came to exist, and has been a hellmouth for whistleblowers. Being angry about the disparity between that and commuting Manning's sentence - while still being glad he did it - is eminently reasonable."

Yup. Is true on the FOIA stuff. I think I still have scans of my FOIA request asking for NSA info on myself.

Let me look.

[the electronic version of rustling through papers]

Yup. Right here (7zip of some PDFs, FWIW.). You can all see my first name, and that I am a Mr., but everything else is redacted.
posted by Samizdata at 8:02 PM on January 17, 2017 [5 favorites]

Which pissed me off to no end, BTW, as his plank on transparency was one of the main reasons I voted for him, BTW.
posted by Samizdata at 8:03 PM on January 17, 2017 [5 favorites]

every ounce of effort should be focused on gaining ground in the midterms and laying the groundwork for Presidential victory in 2020.

Don't forget state legislatures. We are only a few states away from Republicans on their own being able to pass Constitutional amendments.
posted by fings at 8:07 PM on January 17, 2017 [2 favorites]

I'm with corb on this one. Commuting Manning's sentence may be the merciful thing to do, considering the incoming administration. However, Manning simply released a ton of stuff essentially with the attitude that "there must be *something* worth releasing in here," and there was plenty of collateral damage because of it.

Civil disobedience is "A symbolic, non-violent violation of the law, done deliberately in protest against some form of perceived injustice. Mere dissent, protest, or disobedience of the law does not qualify. The act must be nonviolent, open and visible, illegal, performed for the moral purpose of protesting an injustice, and done with the expectation of being punished."

What Manning did wasn't that.
posted by haiku warrior at 8:10 PM on January 17, 2017 [9 favorites]

So, if you look at Obama's previous commutations, which mostly occur in December of a given year, you'll notice that nearly all of them specify end dates in mid-April. Since Manning's commutation in January specifies release in mid-May, I'm going to guess that the delay is logistical. The other most common option seems to be release after the time served is equal to a number of months that is equal to a multiple of 10, though it's unclear whether this is more time or less.

It's probably unconstitutional for Trump to straight-up reverse this, although his AG could theoretically charge Manning with a new crime (say, Treason). However, assuming Trump finishes a term without getting impeached, he may wish to pardon and commute sentences himself. This might not be a hill he wants to die on.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 8:14 PM on January 17, 2017

Civil disobedience is "A symbolic, non-violent violation of the law, done deliberately in protest against some form of perceived injustice. Mere dissent, protest, or disobedience of the law does not qualify. The act must be nonviolent, open and visible, illegal, performed for the moral purpose of protesting an injustice, and done with the expectation of being punished."

Something went wrong with this link.
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 8:15 PM on January 17, 2017

Thanks for catching link error on civil disobedience, paleyellowwithorange. My apologies for not checking.

Here is the correct one.
posted by haiku warrior at 8:33 PM on January 17, 2017

That's a really well-written definition, but do they cite a source for it? Is it an American legal definition, or something Thoreau wrote? I can't seem to google up a reference.
posted by polymodus at 8:36 PM on January 17, 2017

There's a citation under the definition and its explication: "West's Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved."
posted by paleyellowwithorange at 8:38 PM on January 17, 2017 [2 favorites]

I think if Manning had kept leaks to war crimes only, I would join in on the "hero" call. But the release of hundreds of thousands of documents is not an act of civil disobedience so much as it is an act of carelessness. It wasn't just "let the ruled see what their rulers thought of them", though that would have been bad enough. It was stuff like "here's a few hundred names of Afghanis who are helping the US military, many of whom have vulnerable families."

Which is why I'm glad it was a commutation, and not a pardon. Those leaks deserved consequences- just not "sit in jail while the Trump administration possibly tortures you" consequences.
posted by corb at 8:42 PM on January 17, 2017 [13 favorites]

I hope this comes as relief for Manning and that her release is not delayed or otherwise hampered by the incoming administration and the noxious cultural fumes they bring along. At the same time it is a stark reminder of a callous aspect that has developed in the US: the imperious, offhand manner in which pervasive surveillance, covert military ops, as well as legal and diplomatic power are brought to bear on those who question or resist. Manning was not so much punished as destroyed. That it is now politically expedient for Obama to commute her sentence does not change the fact that he has allowed a security apparatus with unprecedented power and zero scruples to flourish, which will soon do the bidding of a craven, moral void.
posted by dmh at 8:44 PM on January 17, 2017 [7 favorites]

they'll find fresh evidence or some charge to bring her back. Trump might not, but the people around him certainly wouldn't want the precedent to be set
posted by geminus at 9:17 PM on January 17, 2017

Samizdata: "Which pissed me off to no end, BTW, as his plank on transparency was one of the main reasons I voted for him, BTW."

BTW, I think this dork needs to say BTW more, BTW.
posted by Samizdata at 9:29 PM on January 17, 2017 [4 favorites]

I'm with corb in general on the nature of the document dump being too broad for me to consider this like something meant to expose illegal actions and thus above any punishment whatsoever. Indeed, all else being equal exactly this--a long sentence to signal it's a crime followed by a commutation due to some public good coming from it--would be fair.

Of course all else wasn't equal, and her early treatment with solitary the sleep-depriving "suicide watch" before charges were even filed was IMNSHO torture. I'm not a rhetorical bomb thrower and I actually forgot how pissed off I was with Obama in laid back 'go with the flow' mode while this was making news. Letting her out now is fine in terms of time served, but now she should get compensation for her treatment and her warders should be investigated. (Not that we prosecuted more blatant torturers, I know, just saying what I want to see.)

Snowden actually strikes me as a more traditional whistleblower, being reasonably careful to avoid operational information as far as we know and focus on potentially illegal practices. But it's exceedingly rare to pardon someone who hasn't been through the system, so while I get his fear but it's a different situation. Also, taking refuge from an unreconstructed KGB head is sort of an issue, and I don't find the argument that he'd rather have lived his life on the lam in the south of France. I guess for me if he wants life in Russian exile rather than test the American system that seems about right too.

Not one single documented case of anyone harmed by the leaks.

"Not harmed" is not the same as "I don't know of anyone killed."
posted by mark k at 9:32 PM on January 17, 2017 [5 favorites]

Snowden is a very different creature than Manning. There is much evidence that suggests he is an agent of Russia and/or fascist elements within the US. His data dump was far more harmful to our national security than Manning's, because it revealed methods and sources. He has shown zero remorse, and fled prosecution, whereas Manning faced justice and accepted her punishment.
posted by ergomatic at 9:37 PM on January 17, 2017 [1 favorite]

There is much evidence that suggests he is an agent of Russia and/or fascist elements within the US

Oh, do tell.
posted by rhizome at 9:59 PM on January 17, 2017 [19 favorites]

That's my President!
posted by klangklangston at 9:59 PM on January 17, 2017

There is much evidence that suggests he is an agent of Russia and/or fascist elements within the US

You can use the terms 'Red Skull' or 'Hydra' here, you know. They are not classified.
posted by Ashenmote at 12:01 AM on January 18, 2017 [11 favorites]

Mods, please delete that slander on an upright civic group that just happens to be led by a blood-red Nazi skeleton and use a tentacled death's head as its logo. Hail Hydra.
posted by No-sword at 12:13 AM on January 18, 2017 [6 favorites]

Obama spends his entire term in office waging a concerted war against whistleblowers, and then exits, pardoning one? Is this something like contrition?


Actually, I remember that part of his initial campaign was to support whistle blowers, so it was weird that he came down on them so hard.
It's wonderful news. Hang on, Chelsea. I wish he would pardon Snowden. We all owe him a huge debt.
posted by gt2 at 1:04 AM on January 18, 2017

Is Guantanamo going to close in the next three days?


To be fair, Obama has been trying to close it down all along; its Congress that keeps blocking that.
posted by gt2 at 1:13 AM on January 18, 2017 [4 favorites]

My guess is that Trump won't overturn Manning's commuted sentence, and I also think that Obama did Trump a favour by dealing with Manning rather than leaving it for Trump. One of Trump's strengths is being vague enough to appeal to multiple groups with conflicting policy preferences who all hear what they want to hear in Trump's ambiguous or contradictory pronouncements. For example, Trump the turbo-patriot, versus Trump the anti-establishment outsider. If Trump is forced to address Manning's case it's lose-lose for Trump, Trump either alienates Trump's jingoistic base who think Manning is a traitor or the Infowars crowd who think Manning, Snowden and Assange are heroes for exposing the NWO. So most likely Trump won't touch it. I don't think Trump will get any flak for not overturning it, since when has any president been blamed for not undoing the previous president's pardons and commutations? Likewise, Trump won't aggressively pursue Snowden, and may even pardon Snowden, especially if this tweet from 2013 is anything to go by, although Trump might also prefer to just ignore Snowden (for the reasons above).
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 1:51 AM on January 18, 2017

I don't give a flying fuck one way or another as to whether Assange surrenders himself to the USA.

I do want to see that asshole extradited to Sweden though.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:03 AM on January 18, 2017 [12 favorites]

I still don't understand the attitude that government whistleblowers should martyr themselves in order to prove their good intentions. It is like we expect figures of political resistance to be saints; otherwise they are devils.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:23 AM on January 18, 2017 [12 favorites]

> Isn't she a British citizen?

> Her mother was Welsh, so she is probably a British citizen by descent, yes.

She is a British citizen, according to the British Nationality Act 1981: "A person born outside the United Kingdom [...] shall be a British citizen if at the time of the birth [their] father or mother - (a) is a British citizen otherwise than by descent". Though Chelsea Manning was born in the USA, her mother is (as mentioned) Welsh.

--------------------------------------------------
> Manning may have had to renounce British citizenship to be in intelligence. They usually don't let you if you are a dual citizen.

That's a good point. I know that in 2011 her lawyer stated* that Chelsea Manning "[did] not hold a British passport or consider [her]self to be British", but I can't find anything definite on whether she ever formally renounced her British citizenship or not.

* Note: Article is from 2011, prior to Manning coming out as a transgender woman, so uses male pronouns and her former name.
posted by Morfil Ffyrnig at 5:34 AM on January 18, 2017 [1 favorite]

I'm genuinely curious about the Venn Diagram that shows the overlap of people who A) Don't hold anything against Snowden for his cozying up to Putin and B) Think Trump is a traitor/Manchurian candidate for cozying up to Putin.

You could argue that Snowden threw softball questions to Putin in a tv interview because he was under duress. But wouldn't the same hold true for Trump if Russia's got something on him?

Russia manipulated the US election and has a clear hold over the incoming President. But many of the same people who have been all over the Putin-Trump connection seem to think an over his head nerd is managing to fight off the very same agencies that got their grip on Trump and somehow still maintains his independence while living in Moscow. I don't get it.
posted by thecjm at 5:50 AM on January 18, 2017 [2 favorites]

There's a distinct difference between someone who took an action, presumably not under duress, for what he believed to be the sake of his country, and someone who has allied himself with a foreign power for the sake of personal power.

There is a real chance Snowden would be glad to be on the side of his country if he were welcome back. The chance that Trump is going to put the interests of the public over his own interests is.... vanishingly small.
posted by Zalzidrax at 6:04 AM on January 18, 2017 [2 favorites]

A classmate's father was sentenced to life in prison in 1991 (cocaine distribution and associated charges), when my classmate was 6 years old. President Obama commuted his sentence yesterday as well.

Elections matter.
posted by Etrigan at 6:16 AM on January 18, 2017 [19 favorites]

The Day The President Said My Client Wouldn't Die In Prison

"Hi, It's Brian Tannebaum."

"Hi Brian, how are you doing today, how is everything?"

Such an odd, typical question. More odd than typical because I was about to tell him that he wasn't going to die in prison.

"I'm fine, I have some news for you."

"President Obama has ordered your sentence commuted."

He dropped the phone.

Delores came back on and I could hear her saying "get up, get over here, you have to talk to him."

He came back on and expressed the type of emotion you can only imagine from someone who was just told that the President of the United States has given him a second chance.

Can you imagine? Me neither.

Tonight I imagine he has told his family that he will be coming home sooner than at his death.

I have received many congratulatory messages this afternoon, and I appreciate all of them. But I have to tell you that nothing is more meaningful to me than the fact that my client was the benefit of the grace of the leader of the free world.

Yes, I filled out some paperwork, put a package together, became the messenger. But my client will be free because the Federal Defender of the Southern District of Florida, Michael Caruso, thought to ask me to take this case, because Norman Reimer at NACDL helped me, because the Office of the Pardon Attorney recommended my client be freed, and because President Obama nodded his head "yes."

If I never again have an experience like this in my career, (and statistically I won't), I can feel a great sense that someone is freed from the chains and cages of a federal prison, when he spent the last 11 years there thinking he would die there, because some stellar members of the Bar thought to assist me in asking the President to set him free.
posted by zabuni at 6:53 AM on January 18, 2017 [17 favorites]

Here's a full list of the commutations. Just from eyeballing it, mandatory minimums for cocaine possession are driving a lot of it. There are people with life sentences for "Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute five kilograms or more of cocaine". In fact, the commutations show the damning failure of the drug war. 95% of them are possession of some amount of illegal drug: long prison sentence.
posted by zabuni at 7:30 AM on January 18, 2017 [7 favorites]

Also, if you want to send some kudos out for this, some should be sent to Chase Strangio, Manning's lawyer from the ACLU. If you've donated to them in light of recent events, this is what you're helping to pay for.
posted by zabuni at 7:44 AM on January 18, 2017 [3 favorites]

Assange lawyer: Manning commutation doesn't meet extradition offer's conditions

Called it.
posted by scalefree at 8:38 AM on January 18, 2017 [10 favorites]

I'm genuinely curious about the Venn Diagram that shows the overlap of people who A) Don't hold anything against Snowden for his cozying up to Putin and B) Think Trump is a traitor/Manchurian candidate for cozying up to Putin.

Snowden is a civilian whose influence is now mostly limited to speeches and interviews since the documents he leaked are already out in the hands of tons of people.


Trump will in less than 48 hours be the leader of the largest military forces on Earth.
posted by ymgve at 10:11 AM on January 18, 2017 [5 favorites]

I'm genuinely curious about the Venn Diagram that shows the overlap of people who A) Don't hold anything against Snowden for his cozying up to Putin and B) Think Trump is a traitor/Manchurian candidate for cozying up to Putin.

A) ... after his whistle-blowing, knowing that not doing so would result in his being put in solitary confinement for decades.

B) ... to become President of the United States of America.
posted by Etrigan at 10:17 AM on January 18, 2017 [3 favorites]

I'm genuinely curious about the Venn Diagram that shows the overlap of people who A) Don't hold anything against Snowden for his cozying up to Putin and B) Think Trump is a traitor/Manchurian candidate for cozying up to Putin.

Sounds like conservative style false equivalence - What on earth makes you think Snowden has cozied up to Putin? Dude wanted to go to Ecuador, the US won't let him, and will torture him if he returns to the US.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:24 AM on January 18, 2017 [2 favorites]

if you want to send some kudos out for this, some should be sent to Chase Strangio, Manning's lawyer from the ACLU.

Boy, does this need highlighting! The ACLU does something which is very smart, which is hire lawyers who believe in their cause, but hold them to professional standards. As such, ACLU lawyers are some of the best in the activist world, and they fight to help their clients, not grandstand. I think you can really notice a huge difference in Manning's results when Hollander and Strangio were employed, as opposed to just David Coombs, well known in overseas anti-war veteran circles as an activist lawyer only.

One of the things that was really painful to me back at that time was seeing his clients, and those of of others of the same type, routinely receive longer sentences than those who found lawyers who were still sympathetic but had more of a professional reputation.
posted by corb at 10:25 AM on January 18, 2017 [5 favorites]

Obama commutes sentence of Chelsea Manning. How many people died because of manning' leak?

I don't know who this "@JMfreespeech" person is, but I sure hope there's nothing in her past that people could bring up that might make Manning's crime seem trivial by comparison.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:32 AM on January 18, 2017 [11 favorites]

gt2 To be fair, Obama has been trying to close it down all along; its Congress that keeps blocking that.

To be accurate though, Obama has never actually tried to end the Guantanamo **SYSTEM**. Yes, he tried in a very narrow and specific way to shut down the Guantanamo Bay detention facility, but his plan was always to keep the detainees [1] in cages, forever, with neither charges nor trials.

I'm opposed to the part where the USA is just randomly deciding that a given person must be locked in a cage, forever, and that there's no need to bother with charges or a trial. Whether the physical cages are located in Cuba or Kansas makes no difference at all to me.

So yes, technically, Obama tried to close Guantanamo Bay. But in the more real sense of Guantanamo Bay as the system of keeping people locked away, forever, without bothering to bring charges or have a trial, Obama never tried to shut it down and in fact actively worked to strengthen the whole unconstitutional, anti-American, mess.

I've never really gotten how some people seem to think the real problem was that the physical facility was located in Cuba. Who gives a shit about where the illegal, un-American, anti-Constitutional, facility is? The problem is not and never has been the location.

As for Manning, I'll admit I'm also horrified at how many of the supposed liberal pro-freedom type people here on MeFi agree that letting the peons know what the powerful were doing is a vile crime that merits years of prison. Really? That's where we are? Letting people know what's going on is viewed, even by people here, as a very bad thing?

I'm at a loss for words and I feel betrayed by people I thought I knew.

[1] They aren't prisoners because they have never been even so much as accused of a crime much less convicted of one.
posted by sotonohito at 10:40 AM on January 18, 2017 [9 favorites]

Any potential harm from Manning's leaks can be laid at the feet of Wikileaks and Assange (who, as it happens, doesn't even respect her gender identity, so it makes no sense to pretend they're BFF political allies) for failing to protect the identities of whistleblowers, witnesses, irrelevant innocents and so on, and failing to edit or even read the documents they released. Their "selective firehose" approach of releasing bulk but cherrypicked data has burned any last shred of journalistic credibility they could have had and reduced them to a transparent propaganda arm for Putin. That's leaving aside the mountains of unpleasant facets like the rape allegations and antisemitism Assange has polished for himself over the years.

straight's link way up above should be required reading here. Manning did the right thing. Assange and Lamo did not. Even if you disagree with what Manning did, her sentence was extreme and her punishment has been primarily torture.
posted by byanyothername at 11:22 AM on January 18, 2017 [2 favorites]

Julian never had a grasp of the ethical dilemmas involved in running WikiLeaks. From the start it was a path to personal power, to becoming a player on the global stage. Before he started it he tried to recruit a friend we have in common. They got into huge arguments when the guy tried to explain to him the ramifications of what he was talking about, the risks to others, the hard choices that would have to be made. Julian was blind to all of it. He wanted power & this was his way to get it.
posted by scalefree at 11:37 AM on January 18, 2017 [8 favorites]

I don't know who this "@JMfreespeech" person is, but I sure hope there's nothing in her past that people could bring up that might make Manning's crime seem trivial by comparison.

(Just in case anybody does not recognise her Twitter handle: @JMfreespeech is Judith Miller, a NY Times journalist who published an article claiming that Saddam Hussein was successful in obtaining weapons of mass destruction despite the UN inspection program. This article was very influential in winning over public support for the War in Iraq, despite the fact that basically every claim within it turned out to be false.)
posted by tobascodagama at 11:44 AM on January 18, 2017 [10 favorites]

If there is one person in the world who should not be attacking Manning for the consequences of leaks it's Judith Miller. Talk about glass skyscrapers.
posted by scalefree at 11:49 AM on January 18, 2017 [6 favorites]

They also used a number of locations for "black sites" that nobody was even supposed to know existed let alone who was in them. One was in Poland & another was a US Navy ship parked off Diego Garcia so they could limit British liability & their own since technically the prisoners weren't in the base the US could disclaim responsibility too.
posted by scalefree at 11:59 AM on January 18, 2017 [3 favorites]

Russia manipulated the US election and has a clear hold over the incoming President. But many of the same people who have been all over the Putin-Trump connection seem to think an over his head nerd is managing to fight off the very same agencies that got their grip on Trump and somehow still maintains his independence while living in Moscow. I don't get it.

Honestly the people I know who are most unreservedly pro-Snowden tend also to be skeptical about Trump/Putin. But you may be underestimating the number of possible positions on this - for example I am strongly in favor of what Snowden did, have somewhat mixed feelings about what would be best for him to do now (but think there's a legit argument for the current course), think Trump shows an obvious public turn toward Putin which sets off some alarms, and at the same think a lot of commentators are trying to make "Russia's manipulation of the election" (and this is granting the premise that the Russian state is in fact behind the Podesta leaks) bear more weight than it it actually can.
posted by atoxyl at 12:55 PM on January 18, 2017 [3 favorites]

Thanks, Obama.
posted by theora55 at 1:17 PM on January 18, 2017 [1 favorite]

Surprise, surprise, Assange isn't honoring his pledge.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:01 PM on January 18, 2017 [2 favorites]

"No, no...that's not what I meant by 'clemency'."
posted by rhizome at 2:27 PM on January 18, 2017 [2 favorites]

If You Think Chelsea Manning Got Off Easy, You're Out of Your Mind
posted by homunculus at 3:31 PM on January 18, 2017 [6 favorites]

Look, the fact is Obama didn't say "Uno," and like it or not that
posted by No-sword at 7:25 PM on January 18, 2017 [5 favorites]

While I don't think Assange's pledge was in earnest, I agree that there's a pretty significant difference in the message an actual pardon would send regarding the administration's stance toward whistleblowers.
posted by straight at 3:02 AM on January 19, 2017 [1 favorite]

Chelsea Manning on Twitter: Thank you @BarackObama for giving me a chance. =,)
posted by nicebookrack at 8:46 AM on January 19, 2017

I don't mean to defend Assange, but the only way his original statement makes sense is for him to be saying: I'll return to the USA if the administration shows tangible evidence of something other than a policy of zero-tolerance for whistleblowers.

Manning's clemency doesn't really offer that kind of evidence, especially since Obama is leaving office and can't speak for Trump's policy.
posted by straight at 9:07 AM on January 19, 2017

I think it's more likely that he was simply unaware of commutations.
posted by rhizome at 9:30 AM on January 19, 2017

I thought along the same lines, but it got second place in my speculation because why wouldn't he simply have said something like, "ask me when she's actually out?" I know it's not fair to put words in his mouth, but I think he undercut himself with a flubbed response.
posted by rhizome at 11:53 AM on January 19, 2017

Funny, it sounds to me like Assange's actual issue is an unwillingness to put up and shut up. Because if he really was being entirely consistent he wouldn't say

"We can have many discussions to that point."

He'd say

"If the U.S. follows through on their promise I will board a plane on May 18th."
posted by phearlez at 11:55 AM on January 19, 2017 [5 favorites]

I think it's silly to hold this over Assange's head as if Obama granting Manning clemency, even if the Trump administration allows it to go through, represents any sort of change in US policy toward whistleblowers. I never took his statements about Manning as some sort of actual negotiation offer but more of a common sense observation that it would be dumb to turn himself over to a country that treats whistleblowers the way Manning was treated.
posted by straight at 12:01 PM on January 19, 2017

It sounds as if Assange's actual stated issue is the timing of the clemency, not the nature of the clemency, as pertains to commuting vs. pardoning, the fact that he had not previously spoken about the timing of the clemency non-withstanding. But maybe the nature of the 'discussions' in May will be about the nature of the clemency rather than the timing, despite the fact that he's now stressing the timing and not the nature. But. We'll see, I guess?

Yeah, we have people upthread speculating about Trump or someone in the bureaucracy either rescinding this or bringing new charges to effectively keep Manning in prison. If Assange's attitude is, "I'm waiting until she's actually out of prison," I think that's understandable. I'm mostly indifferent about what happens to Assange at this point, but that would at least make sense.
posted by indubitable at 12:11 PM on January 19, 2017

It's clear that Obama's commutation had zero to do with Assange's "offer". Also clear that Assange's ideology is generally really fucked up. What I'm waiting to see is if he does come to the US after Trump is in place: it will certainly be interesting if he arrives after tomorrow and finds himself facing few or no legal repercussions under the Trump regime.
posted by latkes at 12:45 PM on January 19, 2017 [2 favorites]

I think it's silly to hold this over Assange's head as if Obama granting Manning clemency, even if the Trump administration allows it to go through, represents any sort of change in US policy toward whistleblowers.

No has claimed it does. Here it is again:

If Obama grants Manning clemency Assange will agree to US extradition despite clear unconstitutionality of DoJ case

Simple and clear. Now that he's been put in the position of following through, there is much hemming and hawing about timing and that "clemency" really meant a pardon despite nothing of the sort being in his original announcement.

I never took his statements about Manning as some sort of actual negotiation offer but more of a common sense observation that it would be dumb to turn himself over to a country that treats whistleblowers the way Manning was treated.


Except nobody forced Assange to make the above declaration. He put it up of his own volition. If he meant what you wrote then he could have said it.

Assange was like a child who makes a stupid bet and then, when called on it, says it doesn't count because they secretly had their fingers crossed behind their back when they said it. There's no need to contort yourself into knots trying to explain Assange's "real" meaning. He was dishonest, and people supporting him are making themselves look dishonest by not acknowledging that.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:09 PM on January 19, 2017 [6 favorites]

He's clearly moving the goalposts. The current demand is for DOJ to make some kind of public statement about the case against him: “If it takes me going to United States to somehow flush out this case and get the DoJ to either make a charge or extradition or to drop it, then we are interested in looking at that as well.” Come May he'll be insisting on an expansive statement from DOJ before he commits to leaving the embassy. With Trump in charge & likely to bigfoot the US response who knows how it'll turn out but with two narcissists battling for the limelight it's bound to be a shitshow.
posted by scalefree at 7:21 PM on January 19, 2017 [1 favorite]

I can't bring myself to actually post any of the essays I've written, so

Assange is a bad and annoying turd in my opinion.
posted by neonrev at 8:34 PM on January 19, 2017 [5 favorites]

He should fly into the US tomorrow, if possible.
posted by rhizome at 8:51 PM on January 19, 2017 [1 favorite]

This is a curious argument given that both sides agree on the basic position that Assange will say things that forward his goals regardless of truth and with no intention of honoring his promises.
posted by phearlez at 10:04 AM on January 20, 2017 [2 favorites]

Is Assange even officially wanted in the US? Why can't he turn himself over to Sweden, who actually do want him?
posted by Pink Frost at 12:15 PM on January 20, 2017 [2 favorites]

I spent a few minutes looking into that the other day. His Wikipedia page mentions some vague stuff about maybe the US being interested in him, and in post-PATRIOT America anything can happen, but there doesn't seem to be any specific crime that he has been publicly charged with.

Whereas, yes, Sweden very publicly and concretely wants him in connection with a specific crime.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:20 PM on January 20, 2017 [1 favorite]