Terrorist attack in Quebec
January 30, 2017 3:04 AM Subscribe
Terrorist attack in Quebec Six are dead, and more wounded. Two men are in custody after they attacked a mosque during evening prayers, in Quebec City. This is horrible. Prime Minister Trudeau has condemned the attack, saying as well that "Muslim-Canadians are an important part of our national fabric".
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Today's protest at the Toronto US Consolate has become a vigil.
posted by scruss at 3:38 AM on January 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
Today's protest at the Toronto US Consolate has become a vigil.
posted by scruss at 3:38 AM on January 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
Horrifying. There are no words.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 3:39 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 3:39 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
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posted by soren_lorensen at 3:47 AM on January 30, 2017
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:47 AM on January 30, 2017
This is horrible.
I am glad the Prime Minister and other officials are calling this terrorism, immediately and unequivocally.
posted by Shepherd at 3:56 AM on January 30, 2017 [38 favorites]
I am glad the Prime Minister and other officials are calling this terrorism, immediately and unequivocally.
posted by Shepherd at 3:56 AM on January 30, 2017 [38 favorites]
"Muslim-Canadians are an important part of our national fabric"
It sucks that now there's some sort of requirement to go beyond the obvious: "YOU SHOULDN'T KILL PEOPLE, DICKHEAD."
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posted by pompomtom at 3:59 AM on January 30, 2017 [9 favorites]
It sucks that now there's some sort of requirement to go beyond the obvious: "YOU SHOULDN'T KILL PEOPLE, DICKHEAD."
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posted by pompomtom at 3:59 AM on January 30, 2017 [9 favorites]
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posted by and they trembled before her fury at 4:13 AM on January 30, 2017
posted by and they trembled before her fury at 4:13 AM on January 30, 2017
I am glad the Prime Minister and other officials are calling this terrorism, immediately and unequivocally.
It's the only way to deal with it, I think. No equivocation plus directly countering the normalization of harassment and violence towards minority populations.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:17 AM on January 30, 2017 [13 favorites]
It's the only way to deal with it, I think. No equivocation plus directly countering the normalization of harassment and violence towards minority populations.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:17 AM on January 30, 2017 [13 favorites]
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posted by cotton dress sock at 4:32 AM on January 30, 2017
posted by cotton dress sock at 4:32 AM on January 30, 2017
Mod note: One deleted. Just quickly: these breaking-news posts of horrific events are very difficult, so let's try to stick to the best quality sources we can find, and avoid too much speculation without good info. Do please especially avoid sensationalist tabloid type links. Thank you, everyone.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:40 AM on January 30, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 4:40 AM on January 30, 2017 [8 favorites]
I hate hate. Whoever they are, the arrogance to hand out death is nauseating.
posted by Construction Concern at 5:06 AM on January 30, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by Construction Concern at 5:06 AM on January 30, 2017 [10 favorites]
It was terrorism, plain and simple. No "lone wolf," no "deranged individual, none of that shit.
IT WAS TERRORISM AND THANK GOD THE TRUDEAU GOVERNMENT RECOGNIZED THAT.
posted by Kitteh at 5:07 AM on January 30, 2017 [32 favorites]
IT WAS TERRORISM AND THANK GOD THE TRUDEAU GOVERNMENT RECOGNIZED THAT.
posted by Kitteh at 5:07 AM on January 30, 2017 [32 favorites]
"Still, the context of the attack was inescapable, coming after a rise in anti-Muslim rhetoric, behavior and vandalism in both the U.S. and Canada and amid a heated debate over President Trump’s executive order temporarily shutting U.S. borders to refugees and migrants from seven mostly Muslim countries."
The quote above, from The Washington Post Link at the top of this thread, seems to speculate that the attack might have something to do with all of the anti-Muslim rhetoric.
This an act of terrorism, no doubt. Nevertheless, it seems premature to advance the narrative that the cause of this act of terrorism might somehow point towards an escalation of anti-Muslim rhetoric or "the normalization of harassment and violence towards minority populations."
posted by otto42 at 5:17 AM on January 30, 2017
The quote above, from The Washington Post Link at the top of this thread, seems to speculate that the attack might have something to do with all of the anti-Muslim rhetoric.
This an act of terrorism, no doubt. Nevertheless, it seems premature to advance the narrative that the cause of this act of terrorism might somehow point towards an escalation of anti-Muslim rhetoric or "the normalization of harassment and violence towards minority populations."
posted by otto42 at 5:17 AM on January 30, 2017
Wait, what? There has been an objectively high number of anti-Islamic acts. The escalation and normalization is backed up by facts, and not "alternative" ones, either.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:25 AM on January 30, 2017 [59 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 5:25 AM on January 30, 2017 [59 favorites]
As a Canadian I am deeply ashamed by this. We aren't 'better', we're just nicer about being racist shitbags.
posted by sandraregina at 5:36 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by sandraregina at 5:36 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
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posted by skye.dancer at 5:38 AM on January 30, 2017
posted by skye.dancer at 5:38 AM on January 30, 2017
Fascinating and ghoulish the collective breath-holding while we wait on the ethnicity of the terrorists.
Peace to the victims and their families.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 5:41 AM on January 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Peace to the victims and their families.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 5:41 AM on January 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Wait, what? There has been an objectively high number of anti-Islamic acts. The escalation and normalization is backed up by facts, and not "alternative" ones, either.
Of course, no disagreement here. A UK paper (link removed) suggested the attack may have been the work of a smaller Muslim minority on the larger Muslim minority in the mosque in Quebec City, rather than the work of an Anti-Muslim majority.
posted by otto42 at 5:43 AM on January 30, 2017
Of course, no disagreement here. A UK paper (link removed) suggested the attack may have been the work of a smaller Muslim minority on the larger Muslim minority in the mosque in Quebec City, rather than the work of an Anti-Muslim majority.
posted by otto42 at 5:43 AM on January 30, 2017
"As a Canadian I am deeply ashamed by this. We aren't 'better', we're just nicer about being racist shitbags."
As another Canadian, I am not ashamed by this because I didn't do it. You can acknowledge the racism in Canada without characterizing everyone in the country as a "racist shitbag." I and millions of other Canadians (and Americans) are disgusted by racism and fight it every day.
posted by crazylegs at 5:50 AM on January 30, 2017 [17 favorites]
As another Canadian, I am not ashamed by this because I didn't do it. You can acknowledge the racism in Canada without characterizing everyone in the country as a "racist shitbag." I and millions of other Canadians (and Americans) are disgusted by racism and fight it every day.
posted by crazylegs at 5:50 AM on January 30, 2017 [17 favorites]
> I am glad the Prime Minister and other officials are calling this terrorism, immediately and unequivocally.
Agreed.
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posted by gursky at 5:51 AM on January 30, 2017
Agreed.
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posted by gursky at 5:51 AM on January 30, 2017
The surging tide of violent "populism" knows no national boundaries.
posted by tommasz at 5:52 AM on January 30, 2017
posted by tommasz at 5:52 AM on January 30, 2017
Fuck the "terrorism" flag. It was MASS MURDER. I am so over this thing where murdering loons get dignified because they're murdering group A or group B. Like having a specific plan makes them so different from any other murdering loon (eg: Bourke St Melbourne the other day).
On reflection (having paused to pat a cat, and back away from capslock): Can anyone tell me how it is helpful to label this sort of thing 'terrorism'? I'm fully open to the idea that I'm missing something.
posted by pompomtom at 6:00 AM on January 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
On reflection (having paused to pat a cat, and back away from capslock): Can anyone tell me how it is helpful to label this sort of thing 'terrorism'? I'm fully open to the idea that I'm missing something.
posted by pompomtom at 6:00 AM on January 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
This post is premature and because of the lack of facts all anyone can offer is wild speculation or horrified condolences. Here's the latter.
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posted by spitbull at 6:00 AM on January 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
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posted by spitbull at 6:00 AM on January 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
It's things like this that make me cynical about the prospect of packing up am moving somewhere else, somewhere "better." It's not that I wouldn't be tempted by the possibility of moving somewhere where I don't have to fight as hard as I do in Texas, but it seems that the closer I pay attention to other nations right now, the more clearly I see that the fight against hatred, racism, and fascism is not one restricted to any nation's borders. There is no utopia except the ones we make ourselves in our own communities.
Fuck. Quebec, I am so sorry. So sorry. Do we need to all stand guard outside our community's mosques now? My partner is going down to the Capitol tomorrow to stand in solidarity with Texas Muslim Capitol Day, and my roommate may join them; if I can, I will go along.
Fuck.
posted by sciatrix at 6:02 AM on January 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Fuck. Quebec, I am so sorry. So sorry. Do we need to all stand guard outside our community's mosques now? My partner is going down to the Capitol tomorrow to stand in solidarity with Texas Muslim Capitol Day, and my roommate may join them; if I can, I will go along.
Fuck.
posted by sciatrix at 6:02 AM on January 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Can anyone tell me how it is helpful to label this sort of thing 'terrorism'? I'm fully open to the idea that I'm missing something.
Because usually when POC are killed horribly in tragedies such as these, the media is absolutely quick to label it the work of "lone wolves," "mentally ill", etc. They never ever call it terrorism. But when white people are killed horribly in similar manners? It gets called terrorism right damn fast.
posted by Kitteh at 6:04 AM on January 30, 2017 [49 favorites]
Because usually when POC are killed horribly in tragedies such as these, the media is absolutely quick to label it the work of "lone wolves," "mentally ill", etc. They never ever call it terrorism. But when white people are killed horribly in similar manners? It gets called terrorism right damn fast.
posted by Kitteh at 6:04 AM on January 30, 2017 [49 favorites]
Can anyone tell me how it is helpful to label this sort of thing 'terrorism'? I'm fully open to the idea that I'm missing something.
It's because terrorism is a label usually used to incite fear and dehumanize all Muslims, whether or not they personally are anything but peaceful, whenever some murderer chooses to take life for the purpose of inciting fear. Meanwhile, when white Christian* men kill innocents to incite fear it's mysteriously always an isolated incident, not terrorism at all. By calling this an act of terrorism that targets Muslims, we draw attention to this double standard.
*or culturally Christian
posted by sciatrix at 6:06 AM on January 30, 2017 [19 favorites]
It's because terrorism is a label usually used to incite fear and dehumanize all Muslims, whether or not they personally are anything but peaceful, whenever some murderer chooses to take life for the purpose of inciting fear. Meanwhile, when white Christian* men kill innocents to incite fear it's mysteriously always an isolated incident, not terrorism at all. By calling this an act of terrorism that targets Muslims, we draw attention to this double standard.
*or culturally Christian
posted by sciatrix at 6:06 AM on January 30, 2017 [19 favorites]
There has not been a day in January 2017 where there has not been a terrorist attack. Only the geography sets this one apart.
Put me down for (I count over 880) more asterisks.
posted by IndigoJones at 6:13 AM on January 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
Put me down for (I count over 880) more asterisks.
posted by IndigoJones at 6:13 AM on January 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
Mod note: A couple deleted. If all we can do here is fight about speculation of whether the killers are Muslims or not or link to hate sites, this isn't a thread we can have. If folks want to discuss the news as it becomes available from reliable sources without the flamebaiting etc., okay. If not, we'll delete and wait for a better time to discuss this.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:18 AM on January 30, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 6:18 AM on January 30, 2017 [13 favorites]
Can anyone tell me how it is helpful to label this sort of thing 'terrorism'?
If you're murdering people in an open way and, to all appearances, because of their race or religion or ethnicity or whatever, then you aren't only committing a crime against the people you murdered or injured. You're also committing a crime against all the people you're trying to cow into inaction, to drive away in fear.
Which makes you a terrorist.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:24 AM on January 30, 2017 [30 favorites]
If you're murdering people in an open way and, to all appearances, because of their race or religion or ethnicity or whatever, then you aren't only committing a crime against the people you murdered or injured. You're also committing a crime against all the people you're trying to cow into inaction, to drive away in fear.
Which makes you a terrorist.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:24 AM on January 30, 2017 [30 favorites]
The alt-rightists are already spreading an image meme claiming that the killers arrived as refugees a week earlier.
posted by acb at 6:25 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by acb at 6:25 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Terrorism describes acts of violence intended to terrorize whole communities, rather than just being isolated acts of violence against individuals. It's intended to intimidate specific classes of people, and make them afraid to do or just be whatever it is that the terrorist disapproves of. (It's the same principle as hate crimes, and I've never been able to tangle out a clear, logical difference between the two.)
Any violent crime will necessarily create fear in a community, but if that was its primary intent, especially if it's targeted toward a specific segment of the community, that's what makes it terrorism.
posted by ernielundquist at 6:25 AM on January 30, 2017 [14 favorites]
Any violent crime will necessarily create fear in a community, but if that was its primary intent, especially if it's targeted toward a specific segment of the community, that's what makes it terrorism.
posted by ernielundquist at 6:25 AM on January 30, 2017 [14 favorites]
Is there any news about motive? I skimmed TFA and could not get a handle on the doers. And the shout of Allahu ackbar was not characterized as sarcastic or intentional etc. Asking because I am trying to figure out what is unfolding there: Fundamentalists? Quebec nationalists? Garden variety racists?
posted by drowsy at 6:35 AM on January 30, 2017
posted by drowsy at 6:35 AM on January 30, 2017
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The differences between Canada and the US are becoming starkly apparent. Maybe they always were and I just didn't notice.
posted by james33 at 6:43 AM on January 30, 2017
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The differences between Canada and the US are becoming starkly apparent. Maybe they always were and I just didn't notice.
posted by james33 at 6:43 AM on January 30, 2017
So sad this morning.
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posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 6:46 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
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posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 6:46 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Honestly can't tell if my last reply was deleted or I've just hit the wrong button.
Either way: thank you for responses to my query, especially ROU_Xenophobe and ernielundquist.
posted by pompomtom at 6:54 AM on January 30, 2017
Either way: thank you for responses to my query, especially ROU_Xenophobe and ernielundquist.
posted by pompomtom at 6:54 AM on January 30, 2017
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I hope this is not a derail as acts like this are unconscionable and certainly are an act of terror. But just as there begins a consensus to keep names of shooters off the front page even the term "terrorism" both for militias and religious fanatics gives the criminals too much credit. They are all pathetic viscous common criminals. The semiotic token of "terror" implies that there is a "cause" and a cause implies more than just a criminal act and even that bit of credit needs to be removed from the idea of the brutal act of violence.
Allowing the idea of a 'terror act' moves the retribution towards martyrdom again giving too much credit.
Big guns,a big police force or removing guns can not stop the 'lone gunman' only removing the idea from the world.
posted by sammyo at 6:56 AM on January 30, 2017
I hope this is not a derail as acts like this are unconscionable and certainly are an act of terror. But just as there begins a consensus to keep names of shooters off the front page even the term "terrorism" both for militias and religious fanatics gives the criminals too much credit. They are all pathetic viscous common criminals. The semiotic token of "terror" implies that there is a "cause" and a cause implies more than just a criminal act and even that bit of credit needs to be removed from the idea of the brutal act of violence.
Allowing the idea of a 'terror act' moves the retribution towards martyrdom again giving too much credit.
Big guns,a big police force or removing guns can not stop the 'lone gunman' only removing the idea from the world.
posted by sammyo at 6:56 AM on January 30, 2017
Canadian here... assuming there is a legal definition for terrorism in Quebec law, how can this be called a "terrorist" attack if we don't know what happened?
AFAIK it's being "treated as" a terrorist attack. Perhaps I'm being pedantic here, but we just don't know what happened yet.
posted by My Dad at 7:02 AM on January 30, 2017
AFAIK it's being "treated as" a terrorist attack. Perhaps I'm being pedantic here, but we just don't know what happened yet.
posted by My Dad at 7:02 AM on January 30, 2017
CBC has a live blog here about the shooting, covering what the police are willing to share at this point as well as how the injured victims are doing. Motive is still obscure at this point. Via mandolin conspiracy's linked article there is a related article linked this one (from last year) that does reference some numbers about right wing extremism in Canada and hate crimes in Quebec if anyone is interested in understanding some of the Quebec context.
posted by Ashwagandha at 7:06 AM on January 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Ashwagandha at 7:06 AM on January 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
It is clearly too early to attribute this act to right wing extremism, especially with all of the "Fake News" going around.
Editor’s note: This piece originally stated that Reuters reported the names of the assailants. However, the information came from a Reuters parody social-media account. We regret the error and have deleted the information.
posted by otto42 at 7:13 AM on January 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
Editor’s note: This piece originally stated that Reuters reported the names of the assailants. However, the information came from a Reuters parody social-media account. We regret the error and have deleted the information.
posted by otto42 at 7:13 AM on January 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
Hi, "My Dad",
> Canadian here... assuming there is a legal definition for terrorism in Quebec law, how can this be called a "terrorist" attack if we don't know what happened?
Terrorism doesn't require a legal definition to exist. Only to prosecute it under a particular law. I'm going with this definition for terrorism:
"the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."
We do know already that this was unlawful and extreme violence against civilians. "In the pursuit of political aims" is obviously the questionable bit, but if the murderers only wanted to spread fear or kill people indiscriminately, they could have gone to any other public place (a shopping mall, an office building, a particular street). They also could have gone at another time. So it's pretty clear they deliberately chose a mosque at a time of prayer. This choice is political.
Knowing only the facts reported so far, I believe this is terrorism.
posted by sixohsix at 7:13 AM on January 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
> Canadian here... assuming there is a legal definition for terrorism in Quebec law, how can this be called a "terrorist" attack if we don't know what happened?
Terrorism doesn't require a legal definition to exist. Only to prosecute it under a particular law. I'm going with this definition for terrorism:
"the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."
We do know already that this was unlawful and extreme violence against civilians. "In the pursuit of political aims" is obviously the questionable bit, but if the murderers only wanted to spread fear or kill people indiscriminately, they could have gone to any other public place (a shopping mall, an office building, a particular street). They also could have gone at another time. So it's pretty clear they deliberately chose a mosque at a time of prayer. This choice is political.
Knowing only the facts reported so far, I believe this is terrorism.
posted by sixohsix at 7:13 AM on January 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
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posted by chunking express at 7:17 AM on January 30, 2017
posted by chunking express at 7:17 AM on January 30, 2017
Lived a bit NW of Quebec City for a long time, worked there regularly for a while after that. Racism in that area is very much different than in say Montreal, because for a long time it was homogeneous francophone, homogeneous Roman Catholic. The way I was treated there just for having an accent never would have happened elsewhere, and this was all well before the fires were stoked regarding hijabs. There are lots of good, great people in Quebec, but so many bad apples.
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posted by furtive at 7:27 AM on January 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
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posted by furtive at 7:27 AM on January 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Phillipe Couillard, Quebec's premier, is giving a press conference in a moment. The live feed is available in the CBC live blog Ashwagandha posted above.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:56 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:56 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Hate speech has consequences, always.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:04 AM on January 30, 2017
posted by tobascodagama at 8:04 AM on January 30, 2017
This was like a kick to the stomach when I heard about it, absolutely sickening.
I'm also Canadian, and watching what slithered through the door that Harper opened during his time in office, especially during his last campaign with the snitch line etc, and watching sociopathic scum like Kellei Leitch is absolutely heart rending. I can only wonder what will come out now that the two killers are in custody; what they consumed, and paid attention to online.
And yes, it is terrorism and it is also a hate crime.
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posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 8:14 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm also Canadian, and watching what slithered through the door that Harper opened during his time in office, especially during his last campaign with the snitch line etc, and watching sociopathic scum like Kellei Leitch is absolutely heart rending. I can only wonder what will come out now that the two killers are in custody; what they consumed, and paid attention to online.
And yes, it is terrorism and it is also a hate crime.
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posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 8:14 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
ODiV, I know locally people are planning to show up outside the local mosque in time for Friday services as a show of solidarity. I bet there's something similar happening in your area.
posted by peppermind at 8:24 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by peppermind at 8:24 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
It would appear that the Bloc Quebecois has just now taken their "C'est la goutte de trop" ("It's one drop too many") campaign ad, used in the 2015 federal election, from their Youtube channel. People were pointing out last night, and this morning, it's gone.
Description of the ad here:
[It] shows a drop of oil morphing into a niqab and attacks the New Democratic Party's position on allowing niqabs during citizenship ceremonies.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:33 AM on January 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
Description of the ad here:
[It] shows a drop of oil morphing into a niqab and attacks the New Democratic Party's position on allowing niqabs during citizenship ceremonies.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:33 AM on January 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
“I will just say to our fellow citizens, Muslim citizens, that we’re going to support them, we’re behind them, and I have to say, we love them.”
posted by clawsoon at 8:41 AM on January 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 8:41 AM on January 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Just fucking horrifying, a waste of six lives. This has ripped into that community in a way that will take a long time to recover from. What does one even say anymore? I wish the people promoting hatred would experience some kind of remorse but I fear that is not the case.
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posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 8:48 AM on January 30, 2017
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posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 8:48 AM on January 30, 2017
I felt the same sickness I felt when the Montreal massacre of 14 women engineering students occurred. I was horrified by the news and then thought, wait -what? Where???
So sad this has happened anywhere and so so sad it happened after Trudeau stated he welcomed everyone. I stand with him.
posted by biggreenplant at 8:58 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
So sad this has happened anywhere and so so sad it happened after Trudeau stated he welcomed everyone. I stand with him.
posted by biggreenplant at 8:58 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
> Can anyone tell me how it is helpful to label this sort of thing 'terrorism'? I'm fully open to the idea that I'm missing something.
Terrorism and mass murder aren't mutually exclusive labels. It was murder. That there was more one shooter makes it look like this was an organized attack. We've have numerous quotes in the media of Muslim Canadians saying they no longer feel safe in the country. That may have been the murderers intent.
So far, we have no info the attackers identities or motivations, so we'll have to wait on the the intent part.
I have no problem with PM Trudeau labeling this a terrorist attack because that's what it looks like. I don't think labeling the attack as terrorism in any way dignifies the murderers. It means that the murders not only wanted to wanted to kill people but also create fear in the larger community they were attacking. That makes this even worse than an ordinary random murder, not better and more dignified.
If it helps at all, most French-language media this morning have been using the phrase attentat anti-musulman meurtrier "murderous anti-Muslim attack" or "attack by by anti-Muslim muderers" to describe what happened here. (English grammar doesn't permit the conversion of "murderer" into an adjective to describe a kind of attack the way French does. They used that un-English feature of their language totally appriopriately this morning.) If you like phases like these better, please feel free to use them. I'm not telling you that because these people were murderers they weren't also terrorists.
posted by nangar at 9:18 AM on January 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
Terrorism and mass murder aren't mutually exclusive labels. It was murder. That there was more one shooter makes it look like this was an organized attack. We've have numerous quotes in the media of Muslim Canadians saying they no longer feel safe in the country. That may have been the murderers intent.
So far, we have no info the attackers identities or motivations, so we'll have to wait on the the intent part.
I have no problem with PM Trudeau labeling this a terrorist attack because that's what it looks like. I don't think labeling the attack as terrorism in any way dignifies the murderers. It means that the murders not only wanted to wanted to kill people but also create fear in the larger community they were attacking. That makes this even worse than an ordinary random murder, not better and more dignified.
If it helps at all, most French-language media this morning have been using the phrase attentat anti-musulman meurtrier "murderous anti-Muslim attack" or "attack by by anti-Muslim muderers" to describe what happened here. (English grammar doesn't permit the conversion of "murderer" into an adjective to describe a kind of attack the way French does. They used that un-English feature of their language totally appriopriately this morning.) If you like phases like these better, please feel free to use them. I'm not telling you that because these people were murderers they weren't also terrorists.
posted by nangar at 9:18 AM on January 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
Québec RCMP: SQ confirms that only 1 of the 2 men arrested yesterday at night is considered as a suspect #Québec #attack
TVA (Québec TV news): Alexandre Bissonnette est maintenant considéré comme le seul suspect de l’attaque dans la mosquée de Québec (Alexandre Bissonnette is now considered the sole suspect in the Québec City mosque attack)
posted by saturday_morning at 9:19 AM on January 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
TVA (Québec TV news): Alexandre Bissonnette est maintenant considéré comme le seul suspect de l’attaque dans la mosquée de Québec (Alexandre Bissonnette is now considered the sole suspect in the Québec City mosque attack)
posted by saturday_morning at 9:19 AM on January 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
The alt-right will now say that the other person was re-classified as a witness for political correctness reasons.
Mods, might it make sense to scrub the other person's name from the thread, to do our small part to un-google-bomb them?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:31 AM on January 30, 2017 [8 favorites]
Mods, might it make sense to scrub the other person's name from the thread, to do our small part to un-google-bomb them?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:31 AM on January 30, 2017 [8 favorites]
Media reporting that the other man, whose SCARY MUSLIM SOUNDING NAME made white supremacists across the continent pee themselves with joy, was the one who called the police on Bissonnette.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:35 AM on January 30, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by saturday_morning at 9:35 AM on January 30, 2017 [8 favorites]
I don't care what your "reasons," it takes a special type of ugly to gun people down at prayer.
posted by Mchelly at 9:36 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 9:36 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
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And holy crap, never expected that there (home town), really sadened by this. Not that much info has been released, police has confirmed that of the two persons detained, one is considered a suspect (he did confess to the police before he got arrested) and the other a witness (why is he detained wasn't specified). The suspect is a ex-anthropology/current pol-sci student at nearby Laval university, his social media presence seems to be a mish mash of things and not super indicative of anything. He has an identical twin brother.
So far nobody has linked this to the sub-group of toxic Qc talk radio hosts, which really deal in anti-intellectualism, anti-progressivism and xenophobia to build their audience, but it hard to imagine there's no link.
posted by coust at 9:36 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
.
.
.
.
.
And holy crap, never expected that there (home town), really sadened by this. Not that much info has been released, police has confirmed that of the two persons detained, one is considered a suspect (he did confess to the police before he got arrested) and the other a witness (why is he detained wasn't specified). The suspect is a ex-anthropology/current pol-sci student at nearby Laval university, his social media presence seems to be a mish mash of things and not super indicative of anything. He has an identical twin brother.
So far nobody has linked this to the sub-group of toxic Qc talk radio hosts, which really deal in anti-intellectualism, anti-progressivism and xenophobia to build their audience, but it hard to imagine there's no link.
posted by coust at 9:36 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
... and by link he mean "listened to them a lot", not "they planned this together".
posted by coust at 9:39 AM on January 30, 2017
posted by coust at 9:39 AM on January 30, 2017
For those in Ottawa, there is a vigil planned at Parliament Hill at 6pm tonight. (Similar ones in other cities, no doubt)
I've never gone to a vigil in my life and I'm seriously considering going - perhaps seeing a large crowd showing their support would give some small amount of comfort to those who are feeling betrayed and unwelcome in our country today. It might not be much, but it's something.
posted by randomnity at 9:43 AM on January 30, 2017
I've never gone to a vigil in my life and I'm seriously considering going - perhaps seeing a large crowd showing their support would give some small amount of comfort to those who are feeling betrayed and unwelcome in our country today. It might not be much, but it's something.
posted by randomnity at 9:43 AM on January 30, 2017
News break : Only one suspect in the shooting, Alexandre Bissonnette. The other one was a witness. [in french]
posted by CitoyenK at 9:44 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by CitoyenK at 9:44 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
I saw this last night before I went to bed and my immediate reaction was the gut level knowledge that this is all just going to get worse.
As a mild antidote, the fund for the Victoria Islamic Center has surpassed its goal and posted some touching photos of the community coming together. I lived in Victoria for a while, so waking up to that on top of the Muslim ban and my own personal heartaches on Saturday was too much.
I guess I'll try to tell this story, from out of my brainfog. It feels important. I'll mess it up, but oh well.
Saturday night I slept poorly. I had nightmares. In the most coherent dream, I dreamed that all the houses behind me had burned down, and no one cared. Every person I met as I fled the fires was too absorbed in their own personal lunacies. One woman followed me and incessantly raved about her high school students' science project to resurrect the dead. A pair of men flanked me for a while and simply echoed cryptic nonsense. I tried to warn everyone I could find, but none of them would even acknowledge the fires. I myself hadn't even set out to get help but simply to flee; I began seeking help when it became apparent that most people were oblivious or ambivalent about my neighborhood getting swallowed by an inferno.
I wrote about the dream a little more eloquently yesterday, but I lost that. The point of it is that we all have to stand together for one another, because otherwise nobody else is going to care when our houses burn down. A part of that is in how we frame and talk about and understand these kinds of events.
posted by byanyothername at 9:46 AM on January 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
As a mild antidote, the fund for the Victoria Islamic Center has surpassed its goal and posted some touching photos of the community coming together. I lived in Victoria for a while, so waking up to that on top of the Muslim ban and my own personal heartaches on Saturday was too much.
I guess I'll try to tell this story, from out of my brainfog. It feels important. I'll mess it up, but oh well.
Saturday night I slept poorly. I had nightmares. In the most coherent dream, I dreamed that all the houses behind me had burned down, and no one cared. Every person I met as I fled the fires was too absorbed in their own personal lunacies. One woman followed me and incessantly raved about her high school students' science project to resurrect the dead. A pair of men flanked me for a while and simply echoed cryptic nonsense. I tried to warn everyone I could find, but none of them would even acknowledge the fires. I myself hadn't even set out to get help but simply to flee; I began seeking help when it became apparent that most people were oblivious or ambivalent about my neighborhood getting swallowed by an inferno.
I wrote about the dream a little more eloquently yesterday, but I lost that. The point of it is that we all have to stand together for one another, because otherwise nobody else is going to care when our houses burn down. A part of that is in how we frame and talk about and understand these kinds of events.
posted by byanyothername at 9:46 AM on January 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
Obligatory link to the Breaking News Consumers' Handbook:
4. There's almost never a second shooter.
In the case of the DC Navy Yard shooting, the Sandy Hook shooting, and many others, initial reports included possible second and third shooters. “There’s pretty much never another one,” says Fisher. “So if you hear that, you can almost always discount."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:46 AM on January 30, 2017 [13 favorites]
4. There's almost never a second shooter.
In the case of the DC Navy Yard shooting, the Sandy Hook shooting, and many others, initial reports included possible second and third shooters. “There’s pretty much never another one,” says Fisher. “So if you hear that, you can almost always discount."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:46 AM on January 30, 2017 [13 favorites]
Mods, might it make sense to scrub the other person's name from the thread, to do our small part to un-google-bomb them?
I can get behind that. Flagged the two posts I saw with the name.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:50 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
I can get behind that. Flagged the two posts I saw with the name.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:50 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Note that the second big reveal in the article CitoyenK just posted is that the non-shooter initially arrested and later determined to be a witness not shooter wasn't even named the name that has been quoted here and elsewhere.. On the one hand, I guess that makes him un-google-bombed. On the other hand, now someone else who just happens to have that name has been google-bombed.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:50 AM on January 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:50 AM on January 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Also, the La Presse link CitoyenK just posted notes the last name of the man who was initially arrested as a suspect - and who is now considered a witness - was reported incorrectly.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:51 AM on January 30, 2017
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:51 AM on January 30, 2017
Yeah, I think that's a good idea and easily enough doable in this case that I've done so now.
posted by cortex at 9:52 AM on January 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by cortex at 9:52 AM on January 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
I won't be able to make the vigil this evening in Toronto but the protest this morning outside the American consulate was full of sympathy for the victims last night. That was the first public demonstration I've ever attended (deliberately) and it won't be the last. Let the world know that the fascist revival does not sit well with us.
posted by Evstar at 9:57 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Evstar at 9:57 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
. . . . . .
Chez nous, estie. On se tape dans le dos pour notre beau progressisme, oh qu'il est joli le modèle québécois, pendant qu'on ignore les jokes des mononcles racistes, les flots sans fin d'insanités des radios poubelles, les trolls qui font figure de héros populaire aux yeux des petits crisses comme Bissonnette, dont on excuse la petite haine normale envers les femmes et les étrangers parce qu'il est tellement fin et ne fait tellement pas de trouble pour ses semblables. Chez nous, pareil comme ailleurs. Merde, la honte.
posted by Freyja at 10:01 AM on January 30, 2017 [27 favorites]
Chez nous, estie. On se tape dans le dos pour notre beau progressisme, oh qu'il est joli le modèle québécois, pendant qu'on ignore les jokes des mononcles racistes, les flots sans fin d'insanités des radios poubelles, les trolls qui font figure de héros populaire aux yeux des petits crisses comme Bissonnette, dont on excuse la petite haine normale envers les femmes et les étrangers parce qu'il est tellement fin et ne fait tellement pas de trouble pour ses semblables. Chez nous, pareil comme ailleurs. Merde, la honte.
posted by Freyja at 10:01 AM on January 30, 2017 [27 favorites]
In a sliver of good news, the three victims who were in life-threatening condition have had their conditions upgraded and are "out of danger" (French).
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:03 AM on January 30, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:03 AM on January 30, 2017 [10 favorites]
Trudeau just made a statement in Parliament and now opposition leaders are making statements. Rona Ambrose's statement is being listed as a "reply to Trudeau's statement." by the CPAP (I think, even though it's on CBC) feed.
On the one hand, I think it's important for statements to be made in Parliament and to appear in the Hansard and that there are procedural rules for how people speak in Parliament, so this is kind of the way this has to work. But I would have loved if the PM and opposition leaders had held a joint press conference and made a joint statement, rather than simply each making separate statements that are similar in content. I understand that the leaders will be traveling to Quebec City together. Maybe they can do something like that there.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:31 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
On the one hand, I think it's important for statements to be made in Parliament and to appear in the Hansard and that there are procedural rules for how people speak in Parliament, so this is kind of the way this has to work. But I would have loved if the PM and opposition leaders had held a joint press conference and made a joint statement, rather than simply each making separate statements that are similar in content. I understand that the leaders will be traveling to Quebec City together. Maybe they can do something like that there.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:31 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
The La Presse article refers to the suspect as a known "troll." Jeebus
posted by thecjm at 10:39 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by thecjm at 10:39 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Hey all. I've been sitting with this all morning. Had to run some errands an on to the way to the last one, to pick up some beer at our local gas station market heard the PMs speech as it was played live. It was very powerful and I recommend listening to it when you get a chance. It ended just as I pulled into the parking lot.
The people that run the station are one of the few visible minorities in my area. No idea if they are Muslim but really that doesn't matter. They could be. At the check out the guy asked me how I was today and with the speech still rolling through my mind I teared up at the question. Canadian that I am I apologized , "Sorry I just heard the PMs speech on the radio about the terrorist attack last night and I'm upset". The guy looked puzzled and said "What attack?" So I told him. His face just fell and the whole thing was just awful. He ask if I knew who did it and I said that I didn't know but that they did have a suspect in custody. "That's good at least, I guess.." he said. "Thank you for letting me know." "Sorry for being the bearer of horrible news," I said and he thanked me again as I left. I cried the whole way home.
I dunno, this whole thing is utterly horrible.
. . . . . .
posted by Jalliah at 10:57 AM on January 30, 2017 [9 favorites]
The people that run the station are one of the few visible minorities in my area. No idea if they are Muslim but really that doesn't matter. They could be. At the check out the guy asked me how I was today and with the speech still rolling through my mind I teared up at the question. Canadian that I am I apologized , "Sorry I just heard the PMs speech on the radio about the terrorist attack last night and I'm upset". The guy looked puzzled and said "What attack?" So I told him. His face just fell and the whole thing was just awful. He ask if I knew who did it and I said that I didn't know but that they did have a suspect in custody. "That's good at least, I guess.." he said. "Thank you for letting me know." "Sorry for being the bearer of horrible news," I said and he thanked me again as I left. I cried the whole way home.
I dunno, this whole thing is utterly horrible.
. . . . . .
posted by Jalliah at 10:57 AM on January 30, 2017 [9 favorites]
I ended up falling asleep with my kids last night so I didn't find out about the news until this morning. It didn't really shock me. I think that living as a Muslim I kind of just accept in the back of my mind that there are people around who wish me harm even if they don't know me.
When I was a kid my religion wasn't an issue at all. During the first Gulf War my father ended up having a conversation with the police/CSIS because he had received an Arabic periodical in the mail, which was the first time I realized that my government might be treating us differently than others. Movies like True Lies started coming out and it seemed like the default Hollywood bad guy went from being a Soviet to some version of Islamic Terrorist. After that there'd be events like the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin where I'd hope that no Muslim was involved but in a more general "let's not have the situation be any worse than it already is sense" as opposed to any worry for myself. Even after 9/11 my worry was for innocents abroad. But then came 24 and then internet comments and it became really clear to me that there are a lot of people in Canada who think Muslims, even moderate ones, are a danger and want something done about us. Politically we've had that whole Quebec values charter episode and the last federal election where the Conservatives tried to ban the Niqab and the NDP saw their Quebec support crater because they were unequivocally against that.
At the same time intolerance has also grown inside the Muslim community. The mosques have gotten really good at highlighting why they are right and the other ones are wrong, and of course why greater Canadian society is to be resisted. The Provincial Conservatives in Ontario got a huge boost in the mosques when the Liberals introduced the new sex-ed curriculum for example. The only interfaith content I see at my local mosque is for debates where a Muslim scholar will go against someone else to prove why Islam is the Truth. I think a lot of it stems from the fact that there are so many more mosques and musallahs. 25 years ago there were a handful of mosques in the Toronto area and you'd have diverse congregations as a result. Now every community has their own mosques and it has made them much more homogeneous.
Reflecting on my reaction to the shooting a bit more, I think the initial reporting of one of the suspects being Muslim muted it. Because I could absolutely see that it could be a Muslim who did this (the vast majority of the victims of Muslim terrorists are Muslims themselves) and so I had to look inward just as much as I had to look at the kind of rhetoric and policies coming out of Quebec, Canada, the US, and Europe. My only response is that we have to work on inclusion and tolerance. Focus on what unites us and not what divides us. At the mosques it means that there ought to be meaningful interfaith events as well as events hosted with other, different mosques. It also means not to stay quiet when someone at the mosque says or does something intolerant. In wider Canadian society I am hopeful that this'll be a starting point where political Islamophobia is soundly rejected. The Conservative leadership race will be a good indicator of how things will go in that regard.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 10:58 AM on January 30, 2017 [37 favorites]
When I was a kid my religion wasn't an issue at all. During the first Gulf War my father ended up having a conversation with the police/CSIS because he had received an Arabic periodical in the mail, which was the first time I realized that my government might be treating us differently than others. Movies like True Lies started coming out and it seemed like the default Hollywood bad guy went from being a Soviet to some version of Islamic Terrorist. After that there'd be events like the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin where I'd hope that no Muslim was involved but in a more general "let's not have the situation be any worse than it already is sense" as opposed to any worry for myself. Even after 9/11 my worry was for innocents abroad. But then came 24 and then internet comments and it became really clear to me that there are a lot of people in Canada who think Muslims, even moderate ones, are a danger and want something done about us. Politically we've had that whole Quebec values charter episode and the last federal election where the Conservatives tried to ban the Niqab and the NDP saw their Quebec support crater because they were unequivocally against that.
At the same time intolerance has also grown inside the Muslim community. The mosques have gotten really good at highlighting why they are right and the other ones are wrong, and of course why greater Canadian society is to be resisted. The Provincial Conservatives in Ontario got a huge boost in the mosques when the Liberals introduced the new sex-ed curriculum for example. The only interfaith content I see at my local mosque is for debates where a Muslim scholar will go against someone else to prove why Islam is the Truth. I think a lot of it stems from the fact that there are so many more mosques and musallahs. 25 years ago there were a handful of mosques in the Toronto area and you'd have diverse congregations as a result. Now every community has their own mosques and it has made them much more homogeneous.
Reflecting on my reaction to the shooting a bit more, I think the initial reporting of one of the suspects being Muslim muted it. Because I could absolutely see that it could be a Muslim who did this (the vast majority of the victims of Muslim terrorists are Muslims themselves) and so I had to look inward just as much as I had to look at the kind of rhetoric and policies coming out of Quebec, Canada, the US, and Europe. My only response is that we have to work on inclusion and tolerance. Focus on what unites us and not what divides us. At the mosques it means that there ought to be meaningful interfaith events as well as events hosted with other, different mosques. It also means not to stay quiet when someone at the mosque says or does something intolerant. In wider Canadian society I am hopeful that this'll be a starting point where political Islamophobia is soundly rejected. The Conservative leadership race will be a good indicator of how things will go in that regard.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 10:58 AM on January 30, 2017 [37 favorites]
Is the audio of the PM's speech already available? I've been at the station the last hour working so we don't have CBC streaming (obv, as the station is independent).
posted by Kitteh at 11:00 AM on January 30, 2017
posted by Kitteh at 11:00 AM on January 30, 2017
Is the audio of the PM's speech already available? I've been at the station the last hour working so we don't have CBC streaming (obv, as the station is independent).
I haven't found it yet. Hopefully it will be posted soon.
posted by Jalliah at 11:08 AM on January 30, 2017
I haven't found it yet. Hopefully it will be posted soon.
posted by Jalliah at 11:08 AM on January 30, 2017
Freyja: ...pendant qu'on ignore les jokes des mononcles racistes, les flots sans fin d'insanités des radios poubelles, les trolls qui font figure de héros populaire aux yeux des petits crisses comme Bissonnette, dont on excuse la petite haine normale envers les femmes et les étrangers parce qu'il est tellement fin et ne fait tellement pas de trouble pour ses semblables. Chez nous, pareil comme ailleurs. Merde, la honte.
Je reconnais bien tout cela de l'autre côté de l'Atlantique. C'est bien triste. Vous n'êtes pas tous pareils, fort heureusement, mais ouais... cette putain de petite haine normale, comme tu le dis si bien, faut qu'elle arrête d'être vue comme ça. (je parle en général là, non pas envers quelqu'un en particulier.) On a payé cher cette vision réductrice aux US.
. . . . . .
posted by fraula at 11:25 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Je reconnais bien tout cela de l'autre côté de l'Atlantique. C'est bien triste. Vous n'êtes pas tous pareils, fort heureusement, mais ouais... cette putain de petite haine normale, comme tu le dis si bien, faut qu'elle arrête d'être vue comme ça. (je parle en général là, non pas envers quelqu'un en particulier.) On a payé cher cette vision réductrice aux US.
. . . . . .
posted by fraula at 11:25 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
There is a video of the speech embedded in this Toronto Star article.
(Scroll down to the 2nd embedded video for the speech. He speaks in French first, then English.)
posted by chococat at 11:25 AM on January 30, 2017
(Scroll down to the 2nd embedded video for the speech. He speaks in French first, then English.)
posted by chococat at 11:25 AM on January 30, 2017
Here is a video that's going around Facebook if you can watch it.
posted by Jalliah at 11:26 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Thank you, I needed that. It was good to hear.
posted by Kitteh at 11:39 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Kitteh at 11:39 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
CPAC video:
House of Commons Proceedings - Statements on Quebec Mosque Attack
On January 30, 2017, in the House of Commons, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Official Opposition Leader Rona Ambrose, NDP Leader Tom Mulcair, Green Party Leader Elizabeth May, and Bloc Québécois Leader Rhéal Fortin make statements concerning the deadly shooting that occurred on January 29th at a mosque in Sainte-Foy, Quebec.
From this morning's press conference in Quebec City:
Quebec Mosque Attack – Local Responses
On January 30, 2017, Quebec Premier Philippe Couillard, Quebec City Mayor Régis Labeaume, and representatives from the local Muslim community comment on the investigation into a deadly shooting at a mosque in Sainte-Foy, Que. (no interpretation)
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:44 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
House of Commons Proceedings - Statements on Quebec Mosque Attack
On January 30, 2017, in the House of Commons, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Official Opposition Leader Rona Ambrose, NDP Leader Tom Mulcair, Green Party Leader Elizabeth May, and Bloc Québécois Leader Rhéal Fortin make statements concerning the deadly shooting that occurred on January 29th at a mosque in Sainte-Foy, Quebec.
From this morning's press conference in Quebec City:
Quebec Mosque Attack – Local Responses
On January 30, 2017, Quebec Premier Philippe Couillard, Quebec City Mayor Régis Labeaume, and representatives from the local Muslim community comment on the investigation into a deadly shooting at a mosque in Sainte-Foy, Que. (no interpretation)
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:44 AM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Please consider donating to The National Council of Canadian Muslims.
posted by chococat at 11:57 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by chococat at 11:57 AM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Bissonnette may have asked for advice on the net hours before shooting. (WARNING: autoplay video)
Please note that the poster they quote is anonymous and there is no proof yet it was Bissonnette. Google-translated excerpt follows, but you can also translate through Chrome's settings.
Please note that the poster they quote is anonymous and there is no proof yet it was Bissonnette. Google-translated excerpt follows, but you can also translate through Chrome's settings.
Alexandre Bissonnette, who allegedly killed at least six people at the Center culturel Islamique de Québec, reportedly conducted a particularly incriminating search on the web just hours before taking action. On a hate forum where anonymity is required, a Canadian surfer, who could be Bissonnette, would have asked when the mosques are the busiest.posted by maudlin at 11:58 AM on January 30, 2017
At 2:44 pm on Sunday, January 29, the surfer wrote: "Which day are the most active mosques? I want to demonstrate at the main mosque in my city and I want to go there at the right time. " The information was transmitted to the police conducting the investigation.
There is a lot of info going around right now about Bissonnette but I am not sure how accurate it is. I'm seeing stuff that he was a Le Pen supporter, a misogynist, etc. None of that would shock me, but I dunno how much is verified.
posted by Kitteh at 12:01 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Kitteh at 12:01 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Updated info about the killer is that he's known for his derogatory comments on FB (especially on women rights issues) and was quickly recognized by some people when his picture got circulated. So again, early reports where wrong.
(I choose to believe this one since since it has an attributed source with a name)
posted by coust at 12:05 PM on January 30, 2017
(I choose to believe this one since since it has an attributed source with a name)
posted by coust at 12:05 PM on January 30, 2017
@kitteh Here's an article in french with interviews with peoples who knows him / Google translation
posted by CitoyenK at 12:05 PM on January 30, 2017
posted by CitoyenK at 12:05 PM on January 30, 2017
CBC radio a couple minutes ago stated that Police weren't sure who the suspect was, between the two names originally given. I'm not sure what to think at this point.
posted by Evstar at 12:15 PM on January 30, 2017
posted by Evstar at 12:15 PM on January 30, 2017
My French is still pretty good (a benefit of being an immigrant in Canada!) so I am happy to read it in its original language!
Oh wait, Journal de Montreal? They tend to be slightly salacious and sensationalist...
posted by Kitteh at 12:16 PM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh wait, Journal de Montreal? They tend to be slightly salacious and sensationalist...
posted by Kitteh at 12:16 PM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
The lack of people even talking about this in the US right now has troubled me beyond words today. I'm not even sure most people are following it enough to have noticed updates about the shooter's identity, that kind of basic factual stuff.
posted by Sequence at 12:17 PM on January 30, 2017
posted by Sequence at 12:17 PM on January 30, 2017
| Oh wait, Journal de Montreal? They tend to be slightly salacious and sensationalist...
Indeed, here's a La Presse
posted by CitoyenK at 12:21 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Indeed, here's a La Presse
posted by CitoyenK at 12:21 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale will be a holding a press conference at 15:30 EST
posted by I-baLL at 12:24 PM on January 30, 2017
posted by I-baLL at 12:24 PM on January 30, 2017
"CBC radio a couple minutes ago stated that Police weren't sure who the suspect was, between the two names originally given. I'm not sure what to think at this point."
Posted just now from the CBC live feed:
Posted just now from the CBC live feed:
The CBC can now confirm the name of the suspect. It is indeed Alexandre Bissonnette. More details from police expected soon.posted by I-baLL at 12:28 PM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
The lack of people even talking about this in the US right now has troubled me beyond words today. I'm not even sure most people are following it enough to have noticed updates about the shooter's identity, that kind of basic factual stuff.
I've been doing what I can on this front. Just a drop in the bucket but any Trumper tweet I come across in articles or on the twitter, that is celebrating, cause Muslim! is getting a reply. It's easy enough to do.
posted by Jalliah at 12:29 PM on January 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
I've been doing what I can on this front. Just a drop in the bucket but any Trumper tweet I come across in articles or on the twitter, that is celebrating, cause Muslim! is getting a reply. It's easy enough to do.
posted by Jalliah at 12:29 PM on January 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
So the La Presse article that CitoyenK just linked seems to talk about him and his twin brother being bullied. What strikes me is that his former classmates seem to frame this as something he was doing "It was incredible how much he made himself get bullied." (note: these are my translations, not the original quotes or a google translation). Is this just a quirk of French phrase construction that ends up translating poorly or are the people really blaming bullied kids for getting bullied?*
* Please note, the fact that I don't think kids who get bullied are to blame for it, does not mean that I don't think adults who were bullied as kids are fully responsible for terrorist attacks they commit.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:31 PM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
* Please note, the fact that I don't think kids who get bullied are to blame for it, does not mean that I don't think adults who were bullied as kids are fully responsible for terrorist attacks they commit.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:31 PM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
And just to note. I have my own personal twitter and one that I use for mostly for this political stuff. It's as disconnected from RL me as is possible.
posted by Jalliah at 12:32 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
"It was incredible how much he made himself get bullied." (note: these are my translations, not the original quotes or a google translation). Is this just a quirk of French phrase construction that ends up translating poorly or are the people really blaming bullied kids for getting bullied
That's a translation error, its more akin to "its incredible how much he was bullied".
posted by coust at 12:44 PM on January 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
That's a translation error, its more akin to "its incredible how much he was bullied".
posted by coust at 12:44 PM on January 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
"It was incredible how much he made himself get bullied."
A bit oddly phrased but I'd translate it: "It was incredible to what degree he was bullied" or maybe "It was incredible how much he was bullied".
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:48 PM on January 30, 2017
A bit oddly phrased but I'd translate it: "It was incredible to what degree he was bullied" or maybe "It was incredible how much he was bullied".
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:48 PM on January 30, 2017
The racist ad deleted by the @BlocQuebecois depicting a niqab dripping out of a pipeline is up here for posterity.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:48 PM on January 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:48 PM on January 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Ugh, Bloc Québécois. They were a huge chunk of the reason why I was so angry when I lived in Quebec.
posted by Kitteh at 12:55 PM on January 30, 2017
posted by Kitteh at 12:55 PM on January 30, 2017
I've been doing what I can on this front. Just a drop in the bucket but any Trumper tweet I come across in articles or on the twitter, that is celebrating, cause Muslim! is getting a reply. It's easy enough to do.
Uh... so if my notifications are any indication these 'celebrating' and 'just plain wrong' accounts are getting pounded right now with pushback. And so far, not that it's a surprise, 100% crickets.
posted by Jalliah at 1:16 PM on January 30, 2017
La Presse is reporting that the fellow who was mistakenly arrested as a suspect has said the following:
- He was in a stairwell at the mosque when the shooting started. He called 911 and came back in, and was helping a friend who was lying on the ground when he saw a guy with a gun in his hand come in the door.
- He thought the guy with the gun was the shooter returning (turned out it was the cops), so he bolted for the parking lot entrance.
- He also says the cops were "very nice" to him.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:27 PM on January 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
- He was in a stairwell at the mosque when the shooting started. He called 911 and came back in, and was helping a friend who was lying on the ground when he saw a guy with a gun in his hand come in the door.
- He thought the guy with the gun was the shooter returning (turned out it was the cops), so he bolted for the parking lot entrance.
- He also says the cops were "very nice" to him.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:27 PM on January 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
shooter was active on 4chan's /pol can we just get a bgp killfile on that effing site.
posted by xcasex at 1:33 PM on January 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by xcasex at 1:33 PM on January 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
There's more info about the 2nd man who was detained (and is not a suspect anymore). Basically it he was trying to help the victims at the scene and was the person who called 911, he got scared and ran when he saw somebody coming in with a gun, he didn't realized it was the police. The police arrested him since he was fleeing.
Article (in french) on La Presse.
He's being really gracious and patient about it, "says it's understandable"... give this guy a medal for generosity of spirit!
posted by coust at 1:34 PM on January 30, 2017 [22 favorites]
Article (in french) on La Presse.
He's being really gracious and patient about it, "says it's understandable"... give this guy a medal for generosity of spirit!
posted by coust at 1:34 PM on January 30, 2017 [22 favorites]
- He was in a stairwell at the mosque when the shooting started. He called 911 and came back in, and was helping a friend who was lying on the ground when he saw a guy with a gun in his hand come in the door.
- He thought the guy with the gun was the shooter returning (turned out it was the cops), so he bolted for the parking lot entrance.
- He also says the cops were "very nice" to him.
Well that at least explains why they grabbed him.
posted by Jalliah at 1:35 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
- He thought the guy with the gun was the shooter returning (turned out it was the cops), so he bolted for the parking lot entrance.
- He also says the cops were "very nice" to him.
Well that at least explains why they grabbed him.
posted by Jalliah at 1:35 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Uh... so if my notifications are any indication these 'celebrating' and 'just plain wrong' accounts are getting pounded right now with pushback. And so far, not that it's a surprise, 100% crickets.
Probably most of those accounts are throwaways, but it's good that anybody stumbling across the tweet threads in the future will see the corrections.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:39 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Probably most of those accounts are throwaways, but it's good that anybody stumbling across the tweet threads in the future will see the corrections.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:39 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Probably most of those accounts are throwaways, but it's good that anybody stumbling across the tweet threads in the future will see the corrections.
Some probably are. Some are not. A few of those have just deleted those tweets now.
posted by Jalliah at 1:47 PM on January 30, 2017
Some probably are. Some are not. A few of those have just deleted those tweets now.
posted by Jalliah at 1:47 PM on January 30, 2017
This Twitter thread about Twitter bots, Fox News and RT pushing the Muslim shooter propaganda is interesting.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 2:06 PM on January 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Elementary Penguin at 2:06 PM on January 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm seeing stuff that he was a Le Pen supporter
I don't suppose it means a lot, but she does appear to have been among his "likes" on Facebook. Along with Donald Trump, Génération nationale, Jack Layton, George W. Bush, Rob Ford, the IDF, Mr. Bean, WoW, and the 2011 Chrysler 200 Touring.
posted by sfenders at 2:07 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't suppose it means a lot, but she does appear to have been among his "likes" on Facebook. Along with Donald Trump, Génération nationale, Jack Layton, George W. Bush, Rob Ford, the IDF, Mr. Bean, WoW, and the 2011 Chrysler 200 Touring.
posted by sfenders at 2:07 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Ah, yes, Asshat calls Trudeau to express his condolences but makes sure to use this tragedy as a justification for his actions in the US. CANADA IS NOT YOUR FUCKING CUDGEL.
posted by Kitteh at 2:11 PM on January 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 2:11 PM on January 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
The social media posts are now connecting the shooter with Trump. Even reporters from the big networks.
Chris Hayes: After a terrorist attack on a Canadian mosque by a Trump fan, I wonder if Canada will take measures for extreme vetting of Trump fans
posted by Jalliah at 2:32 PM on January 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Sick about this, condolences to Mefi Muslims and Mefi Canadians. I love Quebec City and feel so sad and shocked about this. Hate emboldens hate.
Made me think of the Charleston Church shootings and the Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting. I'm not religious at all but it seems particularly evil to me to kill people when they are praying.
posted by madamjujujive at 2:33 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Made me think of the Charleston Church shootings and the Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting. I'm not religious at all but it seems particularly evil to me to kill people when they are praying.
posted by madamjujujive at 2:33 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Along with Donald Trump, Génération nationale, Jack Layton, George W. Bush, Rob Ford, the IDF, Mr. Bean, WoW, and the 2011 Chrysler 200 Touring.
A 27 year old liking Garfield should have been a giant red flag.
posted by srboisvert at 2:34 PM on January 30, 2017
A 27 year old liking Garfield should have been a giant red flag.
posted by srboisvert at 2:34 PM on January 30, 2017
tweet Quebec court documents show Alexandre Bissonnette charged w 6 counts 1st degree murder, 5 attempted murder
posted by Jalliah at 2:37 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
First Degree murder conviction is life in prison with no chance for parole for 25 years.
posted by Jalliah at 2:39 PM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
And I just read up on it, it is at the discretion of the judge if the sentences are concurrent or consecutive.
posted by Jalliah at 2:43 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Chantal Hébert: In wake of mosque shootings, Trudeau silent on Trump’s ban on Muslims
posted by chapps at 2:59 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by chapps at 2:59 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Here’s How Canadians Are Responding To The Quebec Mosque Attack
posted by Jalliah at 4:10 PM on January 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Maher Arar:
It is official: the terrorism charge is only reserved for Muslims. The suspect has only been charged with a crime. This is outrageous.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:31 PM on January 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
It is official: the terrorism charge is only reserved for Muslims. The suspect has only been charged with a crime. This is outrageous.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:31 PM on January 30, 2017 [6 favorites]
Maher Arar:
It is official: the terrorism charge is only reserved for Muslims. The suspect has only been charged with a crime. This is outrageous.
I just read that when the police were asked why no terrorism charge they said the investigation continues. While not holding my breath on this one it isn't uncommon for less complicated charges to be done fast and more complicated ones added later. Terrorism and charges for hate crimes are more complicated charges that require much more evidence and indepth investigating to make such cases.
It's likely that if investigators and prosecuters would want to pursue such charges that there hasn't been enough time to get what they need to do so.
posted by Jalliah at 4:40 PM on January 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
It is official: the terrorism charge is only reserved for Muslims. The suspect has only been charged with a crime. This is outrageous.
I just read that when the police were asked why no terrorism charge they said the investigation continues. While not holding my breath on this one it isn't uncommon for less complicated charges to be done fast and more complicated ones added later. Terrorism and charges for hate crimes are more complicated charges that require much more evidence and indepth investigating to make such cases.
It's likely that if investigators and prosecuters would want to pursue such charges that there hasn't been enough time to get what they need to do so.
posted by Jalliah at 4:40 PM on January 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
It's likely that if investigators and prosecuters would want to pursue such charges that there hasn't been enough time to get what they need to do so.
That's fair. It's literally only been 24 hours.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:52 PM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
That's fair. It's literally only been 24 hours.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:52 PM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Trump would be well-advised to keep doing whatever the Government has been doing on defending the "homeland", since it seems to be working rather well.
posted by thelonius at 5:14 PM on January 30, 2017
posted by thelonius at 5:14 PM on January 30, 2017
We are searching for a motive or explanation for the incident in Quebec where a gun was discharged multiple times in a building. Stay tuned.
posted by naju at 5:18 PM on January 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by naju at 5:18 PM on January 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Mr. Bissonnette's online profile and school friendships revealed little interest in extremist politics until last March when French nationalist leader Marine Le Pen visited Quebec City and inspired Mr. Bissonnette to vocal extreme online activism, according to people who clashed with him.
I'm of the mind that Canada should ban Marine Le Pen from Canada for inciting terrorism.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:22 PM on January 30, 2017 [20 favorites]
I'm of the mind that Canada should ban Marine Le Pen from Canada for inciting terrorism.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:22 PM on January 30, 2017 [20 favorites]
Their names:
Azzeddine Soufiane
He owned and operated the Boucherie Assalam in Sainte-Foy, less than a kilometre away from the Islamic cultural centre where the shooting took place.
Khaled Belkacemi
He was a professor of soil and agri-food engineering at Laval University, also in the Sainte-Foy neighbourhood.
Aboubaker Thabti
He moved to Quebec in 2011. His two children are three and 11 years old.
Mamadou Tanou Barry and Ibrahima Barry
Mamadou Tanou Barry and Ibrahima Barry are brothers from Guinea. Mamadou, who worked in information technology, was the father of two toddlers, aged three and 1½. His brother, Ibrahima, who worked for Quebec's Revenue Ministry, was a father of four, aged 13, seven, three and two.
Abdelkrim Hassane
Hassane was Algerian, and worked as a programming analyst for the Quebec government. He had three daughters, aged 10, eight and 15 months.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:59 PM on January 30, 2017 [45 favorites]
Azzeddine Soufiane
He owned and operated the Boucherie Assalam in Sainte-Foy, less than a kilometre away from the Islamic cultural centre where the shooting took place.
Khaled Belkacemi
He was a professor of soil and agri-food engineering at Laval University, also in the Sainte-Foy neighbourhood.
Aboubaker Thabti
He moved to Quebec in 2011. His two children are three and 11 years old.
Mamadou Tanou Barry and Ibrahima Barry
Mamadou Tanou Barry and Ibrahima Barry are brothers from Guinea. Mamadou, who worked in information technology, was the father of two toddlers, aged three and 1½. His brother, Ibrahima, who worked for Quebec's Revenue Ministry, was a father of four, aged 13, seven, three and two.
Abdelkrim Hassane
Hassane was Algerian, and worked as a programming analyst for the Quebec government. He had three daughters, aged 10, eight and 15 months.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:59 PM on January 30, 2017 [45 favorites]
The Globe has a longer write-up on the victims.
Minor note - apparently Mamadou Tanou Barry and Ibrahima Barry were not brothers but merely good friends. Their common last name was a coincidence.
posted by Arandia at 7:11 PM on January 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Minor note - apparently Mamadou Tanou Barry and Ibrahima Barry were not brothers but merely good friends. Their common last name was a coincidence.
posted by Arandia at 7:11 PM on January 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
> I'm of the mind that Canada should ban Marine Le Pen from Canada for inciting terrorism.
By comparison the Harper Conservatives banned George Galloway as a 'national security threat' a.k.a. someone who opposes our foreign policy?
posted by anthill at 7:32 PM on January 30, 2017
By comparison the Harper Conservatives banned George Galloway as a 'national security threat' a.k.a. someone who opposes our foreign policy?
posted by anthill at 7:32 PM on January 30, 2017
Arandia - thanks for the correction.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:55 PM on January 30, 2017
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:55 PM on January 30, 2017
Nenshi's statement, pretty much always proud he's our mayor.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 8:42 PM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 8:42 PM on January 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 12:35 AM on January 31, 2017
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 12:35 AM on January 31, 2017
Mr. Bissonnette's online profile and school friendships revealed little interest in extremist politics until last March when French nationalist leader Marine Le Pen visited Quebec City and inspired Mr. Bissonnette to vocal extreme online activism, according to people who clashed with him.
I'm of the mind that Canada should ban Marine Le Pen from Canada for inciting terrorism.
To get a gist of Le Pen's current game plan, the Guardian has a long-read profile of her current top strategist, Florian Philippot.
posted by progosk at 4:02 AM on January 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm of the mind that Canada should ban Marine Le Pen from Canada for inciting terrorism.
To get a gist of Le Pen's current game plan, the Guardian has a long-read profile of her current top strategist, Florian Philippot.
posted by progosk at 4:02 AM on January 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
White House links Quebec mosque shooting to Trump's travel ban
Of course, because a ban of people from Muslim nations coming to North America would surely have stopped this attack by an apparently North American born individual against Muslims.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 4:03 AM on January 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
Of course, because a ban of people from Muslim nations coming to North America would surely have stopped this attack by an apparently North American born individual against Muslims.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 4:03 AM on January 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
Better border security might have kept the gun out. That's surely what he meant.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:58 AM on January 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:58 AM on January 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Trudeau’s PMO takes on Fox News over a ‘false and misleading’ tweet about the Quebec mosque shooting
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:02 PM on January 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:02 PM on January 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this but it sickens me regardless, the Canadian alt-right have formulated a conspiracy regarding the Muslim gentleman who was detained by the police after the shooting.
Though this banner that was dropped off at Kellie Leitch's riding office restores some of my faith in my fellow Canadians.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:25 AM on February 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Though this banner that was dropped off at Kellie Leitch's riding office restores some of my faith in my fellow Canadians.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:25 AM on February 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
The Economist: A not-so-lone wolf: The Quebec City attack exposes Canada’s dangerous right-wing fringe
Radio poubelle (“rubbish bin radio”), as Quebeckers call shock radio, spreads the notion that the province is overrun with Muslims (they account for 3% of the population). In 2007 the small town of Hérouxville (Muslim population zero) enacted an absurd and provocative “code of conduct” that explicitly prohibited burning women alive or beating them to death, as if that were something Muslims in Canada commonly do. In 2013 the provincial government, led by the separatist Parti Québécois, advocated a charter of values that would have, among other things, forbidden public servants from wearing “conspicuous” religious symbols, such as hijabs. The measure died when an election was called. After the Quebec City attack, the host of a show on FM93, a conservative Quebec radio station, reported, without confirmation, that an attacker had shouted “Allahu akbar!” (“God is great!”)
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:02 AM on February 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Radio poubelle (“rubbish bin radio”), as Quebeckers call shock radio, spreads the notion that the province is overrun with Muslims (they account for 3% of the population). In 2007 the small town of Hérouxville (Muslim population zero) enacted an absurd and provocative “code of conduct” that explicitly prohibited burning women alive or beating them to death, as if that were something Muslims in Canada commonly do. In 2013 the provincial government, led by the separatist Parti Québécois, advocated a charter of values that would have, among other things, forbidden public servants from wearing “conspicuous” religious symbols, such as hijabs. The measure died when an election was called. After the Quebec City attack, the host of a show on FM93, a conservative Quebec radio station, reported, without confirmation, that an attacker had shouted “Allahu akbar!” (“God is great!”)
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:02 AM on February 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
MP Joël Lightbound, who represents the riding where the attack occurred, asks for forgiveness from the Muslim community for not having done enough, and receives a standing ovation in the House of Commons. (Report in English (CTV) here.)
posted by invokeuse at 8:27 PM on February 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by invokeuse at 8:27 PM on February 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
This is how Newfoundlanders have responded to the shootings. Busloads of people have come to stand outside the mosque in St. John's to show their support, right now. I'm stuck at work, but tearing up a little at my desk, and I'm not sure whether it's because such an expression of support is happening, or because it was necessary in the first place.
posted by peppermind at 8:20 AM on February 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by peppermind at 8:20 AM on February 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
And not even 2 weeks later later Quebec's National Assembly has resumed debate on a bill to prevent veiled women from giving or receiving government services.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 3:13 PM on February 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 3:13 PM on February 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Ugh. The National Assembly is divided on whether they should be strict or really strict on this discriminatory bill.
Just gross, Quebec.
posted by Yowser at 10:36 AM on February 21, 2017
Just gross, Quebec.
posted by Yowser at 10:36 AM on February 21, 2017
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posted by oheso at 3:09 AM on January 30, 2017 [9 favorites]