Scout Law says: a Scout must be kind. Mostly. Sometimes. But here, yes.
January 31, 2017 12:35 AM   Subscribe

The Boy Scouts of America have announced that "Starting today, we will accept and register youth in the Cub and Boy Scout programs based on the gender identity indicated on the application" [NYT, Guardian], reversing their previous practice of basing gender on the gender listed on the birth certificate. The previous policy effectively banned trans boys from participation, and previously resulted in the expulsion of an 8 year old trans boy on the basis of misgendering him. [MeFi, NYT]

This follows a July 2015 lifting of the ban on gay staff, and a previous digging in on the trans issue as recently as the late 2016 expulsion noted above.
posted by jaduncan (63 comments total) 23 users marked this as a favorite
 
Good for them. And the timing is courageous.
posted by ottereroticist at 12:58 AM on January 31, 2017 [28 favorites]


It's about time. Is the BSA still in the clutches of the LDS church or have there been more positive developments?
posted by Dokterrock at 1:01 AM on January 31, 2017 [4 favorites]


Yeah, wow, this is as weirdly topically-political as I've ever seen the BSA. I await the Anti-Fascism merit badge announcement.
posted by Etrigan at 3:22 AM on January 31, 2017 [34 favorites]


Psst... space between "trans" and "boy" please. Particularly relevant here when it's about how he is a boy, not some separate class of not-boy.
posted by hoyland at 3:37 AM on January 31, 2017 [18 favorites]


This is good. Transgender boys are boys first. They deserve to be in the Boy Scouts.

But, speaking as an ex-scout, the Boy Scouts are still overall terrible.
posted by SansPoint at 4:15 AM on January 31, 2017


I must admit, the later language around "Our organization’s local councils will help find units that can provide for the best interest of the child" makes me wonder if it's going to be allowed to admit them rather than required for each troop.
posted by jaduncan at 4:39 AM on January 31, 2017 [7 favorites]


Psst... space between "trans" and "boy" please. Particularly relevant here when it's about how he is a boy, not some separate class of not-boy.

Duly noted, thanks.
posted by jaduncan at 4:40 AM on January 31, 2017 [2 favorites]


I'm really glad the scouts took this step. My son is in cub scouts because, at least where we live, there aren't other organizations nearby that offers the opportunities scouts does. I was starting to consider pulling him out when there was the news about the 8 year old being kicked out.
posted by drezdn at 4:47 AM on January 31, 2017 [3 favorites]


In Japan it's Scouting. Children are admitted regardless of plumbing or their intentions for same.
posted by oheso at 5:39 AM on January 31, 2017 [12 favorites]


Mod note: Fixed "trans boy" per OP request. Thank you, hoyland and jaduncan!
posted by taz (staff) at 6:04 AM on January 31, 2017 [6 favorites]


Glad to finally have some good news. I suspect it has more to do with lawsuits than a real change of heart, but either way it will change kids' lives.
posted by AFABulous at 6:09 AM on January 31, 2017 [3 favorites]


This is certainly a step forward into the 21st century. They allow adult gays to be in the BSA, but do they take gay boys/scouts? Can't find an answer on Google. If they do, good for them. If they don't shame, shame shame.

Is the BSA still in the clutches of the LDS church ...
Where I grew up, the catholic church had a iron fist hold on the cub/boy scouts.
That's why I never wanted to join. It seemed like it was just another catechism class, too many
masses to attend and too many priests hanging around. I joined a more secular group: 4H.
posted by james33 at 6:23 AM on January 31, 2017 [2 favorites]


Having been in 3 different scout troops, and a Cub Scout troop, always remember, your mileage may vary. Good luck to all of the boys.
posted by evilDoug at 6:36 AM on January 31, 2017 [2 favorites]


This is good news. I just wish they were more disabled-friendly now as well.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 6:45 AM on January 31, 2017 [1 favorite]


I must admit, the later language around "Our organization’s local councils will help find units that can provide for the best interest of the child" makes me wonder if it's going to be allowed to admit them rather than required for each troop.

to be totally honest, if I were the trans kid in question, that would be the solution I'd want. "Here's a troop that's two counties over but will accept you and not stare at you like you're from Krypton" is better than "You have to join the local troop and they will bully you." IDK how that stacks up against the ideals of justice but I think it's reasonable to let kids and parents decide this on a case-by-case basis.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 6:51 AM on January 31, 2017 [5 favorites]


This is good news, but just out of curiosity, how many kids even bother with the Scouts anymore? Even in my 70's childhood the numbers seemed to be dwindling.
posted by jonmc at 6:58 AM on January 31, 2017 [1 favorite]


This is certainly a step forward into the 21st century. They allow adult gays to be in the BSA, but do they take gay boys/scouts?

Yes, as of 2014. They didn't let out adults be leaders until a year and a half later.
posted by Etrigan at 6:59 AM on January 31, 2017 [1 favorite]


But, speaking as an ex-scout, the Boy Scouts are still overall terrible.

Yeah -- I mean, this is a great development, and I extend my sincere congrats to everyone who excited about joining the organization. I still wouldn't want to be a part of, nor would enroll my trans kid in, BSA.
posted by zebra at 7:00 AM on January 31, 2017


Progress in a time of retrenchment elsewhere--I applaud the decision, even if it is overdue.
posted by haiku warrior at 7:01 AM on January 31, 2017 [1 favorite]


"Here's a troop that's two counties over but will accept you and not stare at you like you're from Krypton" is better than "You have to join the local troop and they will bully you."

Or the BSA could take a firm stance that Scouts should be better that. It's right there in the Law, over and over again: Friendly. Courteous. Kind. And at least half of the other nine. If a troop is bullying kids of different races, different religions, different anything else, the council and the BSA and everyone else should come down on the adult leadership with both boots to say "Not. Fucking. Cool. Teach your kids better. This is not who we are, and it's not who you or they will be or we will revoke your charter, period."
posted by Etrigan at 7:09 AM on January 31, 2017 [26 favorites]


Not that I'm disagreeing with anyone's personal choice to move troops, or even leave Scouting entirely, rather than kick up a fuss about it that might end badly for them. My anger and desire for a better world and BSA doesn't override anyone else wanting their kids to have the best possible experience.
posted by Etrigan at 7:13 AM on January 31, 2017 [1 favorite]


I agree with you Etrigan, a hard stance from the top down would be best, but I could see this "leave some control at the local level" tactic being one for the current political landscape, and I'll support all steps forward.

With this, I feel more comfortable thinking about my boys joining boy scouts, because the alternatives don't have troops or groups in enough communities to be valid alternatives for everyone everywhere. For example, there are seven BSA districts here in New Mexico, but at most one group or troop for each of the alternative organizations in the entire state. We're lucky, because we might be 30 to 40 minutes away from such a group, or we could try out one of the 11 BSA troops in our greater neighborhood region.

I really liked scouting. As a non-sporting kid, I was one of the non-Mormons who stuck with our group. It started out as a cub scout pack at our elementary school, but as the group dwindled in size because most boys picked sports over scouts, we moved to the nearby Mormon temple. They were a good group, very focused on all the boys getting to Eagle Scout before turning 18. My brother was in another troop that was non-denominational (as far as I remember), and more focused on backpacking and hiking trips than badges and ranks.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:31 AM on January 31, 2017 [1 favorite]


All caveats about good institutional behavior and as a snarker that proudly announced his pride at NOT getting a golden eagle, any group that gets kids out into the woods away from high tech and teaches them how to build a fire and survive on roots and berries can't be all bad. Actually a very good thing.
posted by sammyo at 7:31 AM on January 31, 2017 [5 favorites]


In the past, a lot of units (including one Cub Master I know well, which makes me proud of him) have exercised their own discretion on admission of gay Scouts/leaders, etc. -- and while that worked for them on a case-by-case basis, I am very pleased to see tolerance codified at the national level. It takes a big stick out of the hands of bigots and the intolerant, and puts the national committee at the side of any boy who wants to participate.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:34 AM on January 31, 2017


I also know that units all over the country are feeling a lot of pressure as recruiting dries up, so this *may* have been mere pragmatism -- but I will take it!
posted by wenestvedt at 7:36 AM on January 31, 2017


Every time the scouts make a baby step like this, conservatives go go ballistic and pull tens of thousands more scouts out of the program (and put them in far worse Jesus Camp-type programs).

I really wish they would replaced be tens of thousands of scouts from progressive families who would get active in Scouting and work to push for more change from within. I can tell you firsthand that by volunteering as a Scout leader for a pack or troop you can make changes happen and right quick- expect us to do better but please don't give up on us.
posted by Esteemed Offendi at 7:39 AM on January 31, 2017 [17 favorites]


This is a really nice thing and well-timed.

BSA isn't all the way there yet though. This Friday, for instance, we'll be skipping our son's Cub Scout meeting because this is the week they'll be discussing religion. We live in a diverse area, and the Scouts do make an effort to be inclusive. So, they intend to speak about a variety of religions, not just Christianity, but Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, and some of the other religions represented in the pack. That may sound nice and it kind of is, but there's still the matter of the Scouts not technically permitting atheists. And so, we can choose to either: show up, have our kid discuss his lack of belief honestly, and possibly be asked to leave the pack forever; show up, but coach our seven year-old to lie or be evasive; or skip scouts for the week.

I'm really glad that trans boys are finally welcome. That is a terrific thing that deserves celebrating. But the Scouts are still not where they need to be.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:48 AM on January 31, 2017 [13 favorites]


I also know that units all over the country are feeling a lot of pressure as recruiting dries up, so this *may* have been mere pragmatism -- but I will take it!

On the other hand, If it really is due to pressure from outside it means that things are getting better in the wider culture in at least some areas.
posted by jaduncan at 7:54 AM on January 31, 2017


Every time the scouts make a baby step like this, conservatives go go ballistic and pull tens of thousands more scouts out of the program (and put them in far worse Jesus Camp-type programs).

I really wish they would replaced be tens of thousands of scouts from progressive families who would get active in Scouting and work to push for more change from within. I can tell you firsthand that by volunteering as a Scout leader for a pack or troop you can make changes happen and right quick- expect us to do better but please don't give up on us.

posted by Esteemed Offendi at 7:39 AM


This right here. If every good liberal and Mefite turns their nose up at BSA because of something they remember from when they were a kid or because of something they read about Central Offices, no wonder the organization's full of people who aren't like us.
posted by TheProfessor at 8:15 AM on January 31, 2017 [7 favorites]


I agree with Etrigan that this needs to be a top-down approach. If a trans kid is getting bullied, of course parents should have the freedom to go to a different troop, but the troop shouldn't have the ability to exclude the kid. The troop should get special sensitivity training, ideally in conjunction with a trans person from the local LGBT center or somesuch (not a cis queer person). I have a lot going on right now, and no experience with scouting, but that's actually something I'd love to do. Hmmm.
posted by AFABulous at 8:25 AM on January 31, 2017 [1 favorite]


I agree with Etrigan that this needs to be a top-down approach.

What I'm hearing through the Scouting e-mail lists is that actually this "policy change" came about because of a bottom-up approach. Apparently a council (local area organization, sometimes as big as an entire state) asked national a question about it and when national went out to the other councils on it, they found that a) there wasn't actually a policy to change, since they were already registering youth based on their self-declaration rather than checking birth certificates or something and b) a number of councils were already consciously registering trans youth without fanfare. So rather than have another big fight about it, this is sort of an announcement of a fait accompli.
posted by Jahaza at 8:47 AM on January 31, 2017 [7 favorites]


If every good liberal and Mefite turns their nose up at BSA because of something they remember from when they were a kid or because of something they read about Central Offices

Huh? I "turn my nose up at BSA" because they literally think boys who have the same beliefs I do are unworthy of belonging to their august institution.
posted by praemunire at 9:27 AM on January 31, 2017 [3 favorites]


no wonder the organization's full of people who aren't like us.

Dude, people like us weren't allowed to join - still aren't allowed to join, in my case, even ignoring gender.

The blame rests with the bigoted policies of the Boy Scouts. Full stop. If you decided to stay and fight for change from within, that's great - as long as you are actually fighting for change, and not just using that as convenient way to ameliorate some cognitive dissonance. But no one is obligated to stay members of a club that bars people from entry for bigoted reasons.

... especially if they themselves are barred.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:27 AM on January 31, 2017 [6 favorites]


I'm curious about the bit about finding the right troops for them, too. I was a scout in two different organizations and am a leader in a third -- none of them BSA -- and it seems there's a lot of variety. Some troops are "if you go to this church, this is your troop," and some are based on other things like "we're homeschoolers and meet Monday mornings" or "we're really into horses" or whatever.

Some leaders like large troops, some like small. So in general I'm in favor of leaders being able to control the size of their troop -- but not to be able to pick and choose beyond that.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:01 AM on January 31, 2017


> This is good news, but just out of curiosity, how many kids even bother with the Scouts anymore

In the US, according to Wikipedia:
Boy Scouts: 2.4 million boys
Girl Scouts: 1.9 million girls
Camp Fire: 200,000 people (I'm unclear if that includes adult members)
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:09 AM on January 31, 2017 [1 favorite]


I tried to explain the importance of this to people here in the UK (I grew up in the US), and there was mass confusion!

"Wait, so girls aren't allowed into the Scouts in the US? What, are they only allowed to be Girl Guides?"
I tried explaining about Boy Scouts vs Girl Scouts vs Campfire and...
"So are Campfire like The Woodcraft Folk?"
No, not exactly, but you're getting warmer I guess? Anyway the BSA were taken over by an LDS coup a while back and...
"Stop a minute. Who are the Mormons, anyhow?"
Okay, we're going to be here a while...
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 10:14 AM on January 31, 2017 [9 favorites]


Now if they would only let atheists join they might qualify as a modern organization worthy of support.
posted by charlesminus at 10:20 AM on January 31, 2017 [3 favorites]


I'm an Eagle Scout and while I've long had issues with lots of policies of the BSA in my experience and in my troop there were never any overtly explicit religious requirements and atheists were never denied inclusion. No one even asked you what your religion was. I understand not all troops were like this, and in my experience the troop you are in makes a huge difference in terms of the political and religious overtones. For example, some other troops in town met at a church. My troop met at the armory.

I've been an outspoken critic of the BSA since my later years as an active, pre-Eagle member and I am encouraged by their recent progress, if imperfect and too late.
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:31 AM on January 31, 2017 [3 favorites]


I understand not all troops were like this, and in my experience the troop you are in makes a huge difference in terms of the political and religious overtones.

Scouting is a lot like AA (besides that I spent years in each and am generally thankful for their existence even as I spit fire at many of their problems) -- some take the founding documents as "Very Official Decrees That Must Be Followed To The Letter And Let's Make Up Some New Letters To Fill In The Blanks And Then Those Are Very Official Decrees As Well", while some take them as "Good ideas with some implementation issues and let's not dwell too much on this particular thing because really, the important thing is [boys' self-sufficiency | not drinking]".

So some people walk into the a troop or meeting that's wrong for them and turn right around and never try again. Other people find a new one that fits them better. Some people sit down and try to change things. Some people sit down and are miserable; Scouting and/or AA just isn't right for a lot of people, too, and that's fine as well.
posted by Etrigan at 10:46 AM on January 31, 2017 [1 favorite]


I wonder if Trump is going to make it more not-okay for people everywhere to be associated with his positions? Like "oooh, we thought that, but looks like it's associated with fascist white nationalism, so actually we are done" The timing on this is really interesting.
posted by corb at 10:48 AM on January 31, 2017 [1 favorite]


This is really good news. Like I've said before - National BSA leaders are recruited from council level. Council leaders are recruited from units. Support the good ones, and it has ripples all the way to the top.
posted by caution live frogs at 11:53 AM on January 31, 2017 [1 favorite]


For as much as I love GSA, one of the reasons I became a leader (aside from the overnight at the Boston Museum of Science) was because other troop leaders in town were/are super selective about who they'll take. I made it a point to never turn a girl down. So my point is that Scouts can only be as good as the people who volunteer to lead. I hope these steps towards inclusion lead more progressive people back to BSA and that those people will start inclusive groups. That's how progress is made in Scouting. This is a great step, and I hope they keep moving forward.
posted by Ruki at 12:18 PM on January 31, 2017 [4 favorites]


Someone I follow on twitter tweetstormed how this is made her nervous. She pointed out the deep ties the boyscouts have with evangelicals and how some parts of the organization have had fascistic tendencies.

Another tweet that would fit this idea:

this is AMERICA, we have STRONG CHRISTIAN VALUES, instead of murdering our gay children we just try to guilt them into killing themselves

https://twitter.com/eevee/status/826215565937176577

I myself was kept out of the scouts as a boy because my church had a even more indoctrinating group called the Pathfinders.
posted by M Edward at 12:20 PM on January 31, 2017 [1 favorite]


My cub scout troop leader was a evangelical Christian who practiced corporal punishment on both her children and her cub scouts. I was kicked out for asking questions about logical flaws in the Christ resurrection story. Why this was pertinent to the ideals of Scouting, I don't know. I am not sure if I'll encourage my son to go into Scouting - my experience was that terrible. I can only hope that like others have mentioned, the Scouting experience is really dependent on the people involved, and not a systemic intolerance.
posted by Geckwoistmeinauto at 12:24 PM on January 31, 2017


.. oh, and this was in the urban North East USA in the 80s and 90s.
posted by Geckwoistmeinauto at 12:25 PM on January 31, 2017


In Japan it's Scouting. Children are admitted regardless of plumbing or their intentions for same.

Same in Australia. Seems weird as hell in the US that there are still separate unmixed organizations for boys and girls. Scouting is much more fun with girls involved too. It's not 1950. But then, yeah, what I've read about Scouting in the US, mainly here on Metafilter, really does reveal it as a completely different institution than that which operates in other western countries. I can't imagine anyone here seriously giving a shit about atheism.
posted by Jimbob at 12:38 PM on January 31, 2017


I am not sure if I'll encourage my son to go into Scouting - my experience was that terrible.

And I just want to clarify that, by no means, do I expect people who were horrifically hurt by Scouting as a child, and there are too many of them, to be those leaders bringing forth a better Scouting experience. BSA has been so regressive for so long that there are people who, understandably, want nothing to do with them ever again. I just hope there are enough people left to stand up and volunteer.

I'm so sorry you had to endure that abuse, Geckwoistmeinauto. There is systemic intolerance, but good people have been pushing back against it, hard, and it's starting to break down. There will always be crappy leaders, in BSA and GSA both, although I would hope that a leader like yours would get booted. If I ever struck one of my girls, I'd be prohibited from ever volunteering with GSA again.
posted by Ruki at 12:50 PM on January 31, 2017 [2 favorites]


If every good liberal and Mefite turns their nose up at BSA because of something they remember from when they were a kid or because of something they read about Central Offices, no wonder the organization's full of people who aren't like us.

As someone who won't falsely sign their declaration of religious principles I'm not welcome. Enjoy your privilege, though. I'd have loved to been a merit badge counselor at various times. There are backdoor opportunities -- I've had a few -- but I'm kind of "meh" on an org who won't take me for me and I absolutely loved Scouting and the weird adventures it provided.

I am glad for the gains of other groups. In the grand scheme of things the Scout's steadfast "no godless" seems silly: there aren't very many rabid 'muricans againt us. The Scouts' continued stance against the wholly secular has given me a better appreciation for the complaints of groups not lifted by the prevailing tide: when the fuck is my win?

Much of the backbone the Scouts discover is aided when their funding and facilities are threatened by people who see Scout policies as against the sponsor's more inclusive policies and threaten to pull the plug. Hard to see that connection in this case but few tears are shed for athiests: I expect to be excluded from the program for a good long time.

I am glad I had daughters (both Scouts -- get your cookies pre-ordered, everyone!)
posted by Ogre Lawless at 1:41 PM on January 31, 2017 [2 favorites]


My personal experience with the Adult Scout leaders I am Facebook friends with says that many local scout leaders are very very angry at being blindsided by this. A large percentage of them will resist such a progressive idea.
posted by Megafly at 6:06 PM on January 31, 2017


I'm a leader in a cub scout pack where about half the leadership is Unitarian Universalist and we're thrilled. I'm actually one of those people pushing for more change from within. I vowed to myself that if they let openly gay scouts in -- this was a few years ago when it was under debate -- that I would volunteer a lot so they wouldn't lose leadership for it. And volunteer I did. A lot. Now that they let in openly gay scouts, gay leaders, and trans scouts, my work here is done.

Actually, maybe not... I just looked at the leadership application and sure enough, you're supposed to initial that you agree with the Declaration of Religious Principles. I've processed maybe 30 of those apps and I've never noticed that before. It sure isn't prominent. It's tiny type.
posted by selfmedicating at 6:23 PM on January 31, 2017 [5 favorites]


I myself was kept out of the scouts as a boy because my church had a even more indoctrinating group called the Pathfinders.

Paladins, I take it?
posted by jaduncan at 10:18 PM on January 31, 2017 [1 favorite]


I'm glad they're recognizing all boys as boys.

My brother was an atheist Eagle Scout. His local religious institution reconciled it by saying he needed to have respect for religion, even if he wasn't religious, and off he went - but it was still a hoop he had to jump.

The girls' Boy Scout equivalent, Camp Fire, doesn't discriminate on the basis of religion or gender (it went co-ed at least 40 years ago) but gets a lot less attention and has racism baked in the way Scouts do - mostly racism against Native Americans but these groups in general tend to be very white even in more diverse areas. Given how reluctant white people are to combat what they view as unimportant racism (see also: the name of the Washington DC football team being a racial slur), I doubt that will change any time soon in either institution.

I really liked how Camp Fire challenged me to build basic skills, though. My High School/Horizon years were spent learning budgeting, and I had to do three projects for my WoHeLo Medallion which were aimed at improving the world around me. I can point to having to work through those projects as a centering force in my dedication to social justice, and I think it would be valuable for a lot of people... but I think the next incarnation of "group for children to learn skills" needs to have a more diverse development structure.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:33 AM on February 1, 2017


Or, we can put our money, energy, and talent into organizations that are unquestionably LGBTQ and interfaith affirming and and also face an uphill struggle for funding and volunteer work.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 5:50 AM on February 1, 2017


If you're called to work within the BSA, do so with all your skill, energy, and passion. But I'm getting a bit tired of being told to put my health and well-being on the line to reform spaces where I've explicitly not been wanted out of some progressive person's burden.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 6:51 AM on February 1, 2017


I guess just wearing loincloths and skinny dipping will not be allowed at summer camps anymore.
posted by PJMoore at 12:12 PM on February 1, 2017


PJMoore, what do you mean by that?
posted by AFABulous at 1:42 PM on February 1, 2017


I don't think skinny dipping has been allowed at summer camps for over twenty years, ever since the counselor sex scandals started happening. So it's not really a question of "anymore."
posted by corb at 3:27 PM on February 1, 2017 [1 favorite]


Let's be honest, telling a bunch of minors they can all get naked under the watchful eye of their adult supervisor isn't going to fly pretty much anywhere. Quite aside from the obvious risk of abuse, it's going to be pretty triggering for some people with a history of abuse even if it's entirely innocently meant on that occasion.
posted by jaduncan at 3:11 PM on February 2, 2017 [1 favorite]


Dammit, the God and faith themed Cub Scout meeting I mentioned trying to skip for last week in my comment above was rescheduled for tonight and they didn't warn us. Coached my kid when asked about his religious practices to smile and sweetly say he'd rather listen than speak today, thank you.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:50 PM on February 10, 2017


I keep coming back to this with disquiet. I am a woman, born a girl. When I was a kid, I was obsessed with Boy Scouts -- I found the merit badges utterly cool, the things they did fascinating, the uniforms dazzling; I checked out and read "Boys' Life" obsessively from the library (thanks, dad, for being cool with that!).

I didn't want to sell cookies or sew or cook or do any of that shit; I wanted to race cars, learn to tie knots, camp, and build a ham radio.

But I didn't want to be a boy. But. If ... if the option were available to me when I was a kid -- if the girl-born person beside me had gotten into Boy Scouts because he realized he was a boy -- what would I have done?

I am an adult woman, and I don't feel like a man (and didn't feel like a boy) -- but I desperately wanted to do Boy Scout things as a girl.

I don't know what I would have done. I fear I would have been fucked up. I know I would have been jealous beyond measure. I still wish I would have been able to be a scout in the way I imagined it. But I never wished I was a "boy" -- I was ok with my body, with my gender. What would I have thought, what would I have felt, what would people have told me if I were born a girl now? How is a "boy" different from a "tomboy"?
posted by ariel_caliban at 3:25 PM on February 19, 2017


First, ariel_caliban, I understand why you were upset that you couldn't do "boy things." The division between "boy" and "girl" things is nonsensical and every child should have the choice to tie knots or cook or camp or sew. I know plenty of adult men and women who do all four.

So I understand why you would have been upset that someone who was assigned female at birth, like you, could join the boy scouts and you could not. It is not fair and it's arbitrary and gender roles should be abolished. This is a goal of 99% of the trans people I know. However, we're born into a flawed system. The trans boy in this case had 3 options - join girl scouts, where he didn't feel he belonged, try to join boy scouts, or don't participate at all.

As a thought experiment, I suppose you could have said "hey, I realized I'm a boy!" just to get into boy scouts but no one actually does that, due to the massive risk of bullying and family rejection. The other boys in your hypothetical troop may be fine with it, but you still have to go to school. How long could or would you keep that up? Are you going to use the boys' bathrooms?

The difference between a trans boy and a tomboy is quite simple - the trans boy is a boy and the tomboy is not, by their own admission. Some tomboys consider themselves to be gender nonconforming because they like "typical boy" stuff, but they are still (self-identified) female so they are not trans. Many trans boys/men do not like typical boy stuff - my BFF has purple hair and wears nail polish and wouldn't go camping if you paid him. But they are still male.

Again, I understand your disquiet. Things shouldn't be segregated like this and there's no quick and easy answer. But other countries have broken down the barriers (at least in scouting) and so can we.
posted by AFABulous at 3:50 PM on February 19, 2017 [1 favorite]


Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed response, AFABulous! I agree that the ideal answer would be to break down the gender barriers for scouting, just as other countries have done.

My thoughts about myself, really, are that I'm not sure how I would have felt about my gender identity had I been born in a more enlightened age. I was just a kid -- as it was, my classmates used to say as a matter of course "ariel_caliban wants to be a boy!" (though through sheer luck it never turned into bullying -- I got along with everyone). I didn't think I wanted to be a boy. But, of course -- it wasn't really even "an option" back then.

I know plenty of people who tried out different sexualities in high school and college -- I wonder if I would have "tried out" a different gender identity, given my overwhelming interest in "boys things" when I was young? I certainly was never all that sure of anything as a kid. Who is?

Ideally we would all have the freedom to join in groups and express our selves without all this gender categorization.

I guess that's why this victory (and make no mistake, I consider it a victory!) feels difficult to me -- it feels like it once again enforces gender roles in a way that kicks me to the curb.
posted by ariel_caliban at 4:02 PM on February 19, 2017


Dysphoria isn't just about wanting to do the things that are "cool." It's also about needing to do things that the larger culture responds to with harassment or violence.

That said, part of my antipathy for scouting is that there's more than one way to be anti-LGBTQ, and I wonder if the culture of gender normativity I experienced in scouting somewhat contributes to my mild phobia of being alone with cis- and straight men.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 4:31 AM on February 22, 2017


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