Female engineer sues Tesla, cites 'culture of pervasive harassment'
February 28, 2017 7:28 AM Subscribe
A female engineer at Tesla has accused Elon Musk’s car company of ignoring her complaints of “pervasive harassment”, paying her a lower salary than men doing the same work, promoting less qualified men over her and retaliating against her for raising concerns. [...] Vandermeyden, 33, shared her story with the Guardian at a time when Silicon Valley is reeling from the explosive allegations of former Uber engineer Susan Fowler.
Also: I am an Uber survivor.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:33 AM on February 28, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:33 AM on February 28, 2017 [12 favorites]
So, at what point do we tell Silicon Valley that they have a problem?
First I'm hearing of it.
posted by Etrigan at 7:33 AM on February 28, 2017 [26 favorites]
First I'm hearing of it.
posted by Etrigan at 7:33 AM on February 28, 2017 [26 favorites]
but but but elon musk, enlightened technocrat wunderkind
posted by entropicamericana at 7:35 AM on February 28, 2017 [23 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 7:35 AM on February 28, 2017 [23 favorites]
Foci, post that link in the Uber thread just so we keep them a bit separate.
posted by ellieBOA at 7:37 AM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by ellieBOA at 7:37 AM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
So, at what point do we tell Silicon Valley that they have a problem? Because it's apparent they won't grasp it themselves.
Is this ironic? Sarcastic? Beeecause *points to women in IT since IT has existed*
posted by fraula at 7:38 AM on February 28, 2017 [11 favorites]
Is this ironic? Sarcastic? Beeecause *points to women in IT since IT has existed*
posted by fraula at 7:38 AM on February 28, 2017 [11 favorites]
The issue with so many of these companies is that the HR director may not even exist, and if they do, it's probably someone who was with the company when they were small and had no formal training. Just whoever got assigned the HR work or was willing to do the drudgery.
Human Resources is, of course, coded as women's work, and is underappreciated emotional labor. They're not going to pay for a professional, they're not going to give an HR director broad powers.
posted by explosion at 7:44 AM on February 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
Human Resources is, of course, coded as women's work, and is underappreciated emotional labor. They're not going to pay for a professional, they're not going to give an HR director broad powers.
posted by explosion at 7:44 AM on February 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
Re: the OP:
Second exception was a training seminar where there were about a hundred of us in all, of whom about a dozen of us were women. We were in teams of 8, and chance so had it that our team was 4 - 4 men and women (we were also quite international). We won the design competition they held at the seminar. The gender parity of our team was the first thing pointed out, its diversity right along with it.
posted by fraula at 7:49 AM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
It was common for her to be the only woman in meetings with 40 to 50 men, she said on a recent morning, seated in the living room of her family’s house in San Carlos, the city where Tesla was founded, located across the bay from its current factory in Fremont.This has been a repeat experience for me. In twelve years of working in IT, there have been two notable exceptions: first, a director-level meeting in which we were four women. One at CFO level (international), one at country director level, another at IT department director level, and me (Test Manager). The very first thing we did was look at each other wide-eyed and go, "we're all women!!!" It had never happened to any of us before.
Second exception was a training seminar where there were about a hundred of us in all, of whom about a dozen of us were women. We were in teams of 8, and chance so had it that our team was 4 - 4 men and women (we were also quite international). We won the design competition they held at the seminar. The gender parity of our team was the first thing pointed out, its diversity right along with it.
posted by fraula at 7:49 AM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
This is exactly how far we have come and it's damn far. We have come far enough that women are highly educated, skilled in strategy and negotiation, and have enough money and power that they can afford to say, 'I can't even with this bullshit and we are getting to the bottom of this now.' We have also come so far as to be able to have some of these conversations in the light of day and have come so far as to have allies – strong women and men who are able to support this kind of take-down. I'd like every company head to start reviewing their pay structures and looking at the women paid less and be aware...lawsuits are coming. What will the free market bear for inequality?
posted by amanda at 7:50 AM on February 28, 2017 [34 favorites]
posted by amanda at 7:50 AM on February 28, 2017 [34 favorites]
I have a hard time seeing HR as "emotional labor." In my experience it's "prevent us from getting sued, protect management, and screw the worker" labor.
posted by werkzeuger at 7:52 AM on February 28, 2017 [33 favorites]
posted by werkzeuger at 7:52 AM on February 28, 2017 [33 favorites]
What will the free market bear for equality?
Depends, how much are men threatened by treating women as equal? The "invisible hand of the market" seems to be rather male-oriented, in terms of who defines what's "fair."
posted by filthy light thief at 7:52 AM on February 28, 2017 [9 favorites]
Depends, how much are men threatened by treating women as equal? The "invisible hand of the market" seems to be rather male-oriented, in terms of who defines what's "fair."
posted by filthy light thief at 7:52 AM on February 28, 2017 [9 favorites]
Remember when Silicon Valley was reeling from Julie Ann Horvath's revelations of similar behaviour at GitHub? SV seems to do a lot of reeling but not a whole lot of, you know, actually fixing shit.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:59 AM on February 28, 2017 [56 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 7:59 AM on February 28, 2017 [56 favorites]
I have a hard time seeing HR as "emotional labor." In my experience it's "prevent us from getting sued, protect management, and screw the worker" labor.
Ah, but making it seem like they just want everyone to be nice to each other and wouldn't it be great if we could just arrive at a solution here that doesn't involve those icky lawyers or having to fire anyone because Stu is such a good worker and honestly, Mary, did he really do anything so wrong besides maybe use less-than-optimum words in complimenting your breasts?
That's the emotional labor that a lot of companies require of their HR departments.
posted by Etrigan at 8:01 AM on February 28, 2017 [23 favorites]
Ah, but making it seem like they just want everyone to be nice to each other and wouldn't it be great if we could just arrive at a solution here that doesn't involve those icky lawyers or having to fire anyone because Stu is such a good worker and honestly, Mary, did he really do anything so wrong besides maybe use less-than-optimum words in complimenting your breasts?
That's the emotional labor that a lot of companies require of their HR departments.
posted by Etrigan at 8:01 AM on February 28, 2017 [23 favorites]
...human resources isn’t helping me. They’re just protecting the company.’
That's a feature, not a bug.
posted by hwyengr at 8:03 AM on February 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
That's a feature, not a bug.
posted by hwyengr at 8:03 AM on February 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
Is this ironic? Sarcastic? Beeecause *points to women in IT since IT has existed*
posted by fraula at 7:38 AM on February 28
Are YOU Serious? Can't tell honestly. Have you heard of tokenism? It's a thing. Have you researched pay scales? Opportunities for advancement? Do tell.
Every woman you can name in IT since IT has existed had to outperform and out-innovate her male counterparts to such a degree that her contribution could not be ignored (and sometimes not even then...). Men who excel in science and innovation get championed as as genius sages who MUST be listened to. Women who excel in science typically live in poverty and then we make a movie about them after they're dead...
posted by Locobot at 8:06 AM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by fraula at 7:38 AM on February 28
Are YOU Serious? Can't tell honestly. Have you heard of tokenism? It's a thing. Have you researched pay scales? Opportunities for advancement? Do tell.
Every woman you can name in IT since IT has existed had to outperform and out-innovate her male counterparts to such a degree that her contribution could not be ignored (and sometimes not even then...). Men who excel in science and innovation get championed as as genius sages who MUST be listened to. Women who excel in science typically live in poverty and then we make a movie about them after they're dead...
posted by Locobot at 8:06 AM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
It really depends on the people involved and the company's attitude. Some HR departments are nothing but a legal shield, others actually want to do right by the employees.
An HR employee can fight for benefits for the employees to increase health and reduce stress, conflict resolution is often an HR duty as well. Obviously the company wants to save money and prevent lawsuits, but HR may be in the position to say, "hey actually a nap room and a private space for breast pumping or nursing does much more for employee morale than the beer on tap."
Obviously anyone can say that sort of thing, but that should be on the minds of HR professionals.
posted by explosion at 8:07 AM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
An HR employee can fight for benefits for the employees to increase health and reduce stress, conflict resolution is often an HR duty as well. Obviously the company wants to save money and prevent lawsuits, but HR may be in the position to say, "hey actually a nap room and a private space for breast pumping or nursing does much more for employee morale than the beer on tap."
Obviously anyone can say that sort of thing, but that should be on the minds of HR professionals.
posted by explosion at 8:07 AM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is exactly how far we have come and it's damn far. We have come far enough that women are highly educated, skilled in strategy and negotiation, and have enough money and power that they can afford to say, 'I can't even with this bullshit and we are getting to the bottom of this now.' We have also come so far as to be able to have some of these conversations in the light of day and have come so far as to have allies – strong women and men who are able to support this kind of take-down.
The Equal Pay Act in the United States was passed in 1963. In Canada, it was 1956. I remember numbers of lawsuits in the 1970s and 1980s, which were supposed to "fix" unequal pay and workplace discrimination. We have not come far; we have come lurching two steps forward, one back, in a circle, back to start, etc. "Having these conversations in the light of day" has been happening for decades. And yet, here we still are.
posted by jokeefe at 8:22 AM on February 28, 2017 [12 favorites]
The Equal Pay Act in the United States was passed in 1963. In Canada, it was 1956. I remember numbers of lawsuits in the 1970s and 1980s, which were supposed to "fix" unequal pay and workplace discrimination. We have not come far; we have come lurching two steps forward, one back, in a circle, back to start, etc. "Having these conversations in the light of day" has been happening for decades. And yet, here we still are.
posted by jokeefe at 8:22 AM on February 28, 2017 [12 favorites]
In my experience HR departments attract highly judgmental people who see others as being beneath them. There is major pressure in corporate environments to keep things "just peachy," there's no incentive for an individual HR worker to root out discrimination.
posted by Locobot at 8:22 AM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Locobot at 8:22 AM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
An HR employee can fight for benefits for the employees to increase health and reduce stress, conflict resolution is often an HR duty as well. Obviously the company wants to save money and prevent lawsuits, but HR may be in the position to say, "hey actually a nap room and a private space for breast pumping or nursing does much more for employee morale than the beer on tap."
You know what would do this even better? A union.
posted by indubitable at 8:34 AM on February 28, 2017 [68 favorites]
You know what would do this even better? A union.
posted by indubitable at 8:34 AM on February 28, 2017 [68 favorites]
Are YOU Serious? Can't tell honestly. Have you heard of tokenism? It's a thing. Have you researched pay scales? Opportunities for advancement? Do tell.
fraula is pointing out that we have been telling IT there is a problem since there was an IT.
posted by winna at 8:34 AM on February 28, 2017 [24 favorites]
fraula is pointing out that we have been telling IT there is a problem since there was an IT.
posted by winna at 8:34 AM on February 28, 2017 [24 favorites]
If you have worked in tech and read _In the First Circle_, you would know that HR are the political officers of the company. They are there to indoctrinate with training materials and videos, to monitor the beliefs and expressions of the workers, and to put a bullet in the back of the head of anyone who gets too restive. They are people with no real skills except an unwavering loyalty to the regime. Only half joking there.
posted by Balna Watya at 8:46 AM on February 28, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by Balna Watya at 8:46 AM on February 28, 2017 [17 favorites]
Fraula, believing that SV is not a hotbed of misogynism and inequality??
Are you serious?
Beeecause that ain't OUR fraula!
How this plays out in this era of the Trump will be interesting. I'm betting on no word from the gilded White House.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:48 AM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Are you serious?
Beeecause that ain't OUR fraula!
How this plays out in this era of the Trump will be interesting. I'm betting on no word from the gilded White House.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:48 AM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
She's suing while she's still employed at the company. That's rare, and means a lot, both in terms of her credibility and her strategic position.
posted by yarly at 8:52 AM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by yarly at 8:52 AM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
I've met plenty of HR people who are decent human beings and professionals, including at tech companies. The work they're asked to do is often profoundly difficult.
That doesn't change the nature of the power relationship in the least, of course. Everyone who has pointed out that HR isn't on your side is correct. But then really, neither is your management or company ownership and investors. Business is shit partly because it compromises just about everyone who participates.
posted by brennen at 8:58 AM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
That doesn't change the nature of the power relationship in the least, of course. Everyone who has pointed out that HR isn't on your side is correct. But then really, neither is your management or company ownership and investors. Business is shit partly because it compromises just about everyone who participates.
posted by brennen at 8:58 AM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
You know what would do this even better? A union.
How true is this? Do the UAW (who seem to be engaged in a PR battle with Tesla right now) have a good record on parity for women?
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 9:00 AM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
How true is this? Do the UAW (who seem to be engaged in a PR battle with Tesla right now) have a good record on parity for women?
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 9:00 AM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
You know what would do this even better? A union.
Guess what Musk has been fighting off?
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:00 AM on February 28, 2017 [16 favorites]
Guess what Musk has been fighting off?
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:00 AM on February 28, 2017 [16 favorites]
Because it's apparent they won't grasp it themselves.
There's no way anybody's truly unaware at this point. They know, and they prefer things as they are now because the industry as it is now is a very good place for the people who are currently in charge of it. If they keep the idea of a meritocracy and they change what constitutes "merit", that's very threatening to the people who're currently in positions of power. Even the ones who aren't actively harassing women have benefitted from the system keeping women out, and they're not going to volunteer to make their workplaces more inclusive.
This is a threat to their position at the top of the food chain, and this is exactly why laws, especially laws protecting minorities, need actual law enforcement. Eventually, the people in power will do the right thing because they have to, and eventually those people will be replaced with people who've always known not to tolerate this? But only after it gets too expensive to do anything else.
posted by Sequence at 9:04 AM on February 28, 2017 [9 favorites]
There's no way anybody's truly unaware at this point. They know, and they prefer things as they are now because the industry as it is now is a very good place for the people who are currently in charge of it. If they keep the idea of a meritocracy and they change what constitutes "merit", that's very threatening to the people who're currently in positions of power. Even the ones who aren't actively harassing women have benefitted from the system keeping women out, and they're not going to volunteer to make their workplaces more inclusive.
This is a threat to their position at the top of the food chain, and this is exactly why laws, especially laws protecting minorities, need actual law enforcement. Eventually, the people in power will do the right thing because they have to, and eventually those people will be replaced with people who've always known not to tolerate this? But only after it gets too expensive to do anything else.
posted by Sequence at 9:04 AM on February 28, 2017 [9 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. I'm pretty sure fraula is a woman in tech and was saying that this problem has been going on for a long time; let's not get in a fight over a misunderstanding.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:05 AM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:05 AM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
--So, at what point do we tell Silicon Valley that they have a problem? Because it's apparent they won't grasp it themselves.
--Is this ironic? Sarcastic? Beeecause *points to women in IT since IT has existed*
I think what fraula was saying is that women in IT have been TRYING to point out the obvious problems that their job sector has for a good long while now. But some of the folks in this thread misunderstood her statement to mean, "what? the IT sector has no problems! why, look at the tiny, put-upon cadre of women way over there!"
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 9:10 AM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
--Is this ironic? Sarcastic? Beeecause *points to women in IT since IT has existed*
I think what fraula was saying is that women in IT have been TRYING to point out the obvious problems that their job sector has for a good long while now. But some of the folks in this thread misunderstood her statement to mean, "what? the IT sector has no problems! why, look at the tiny, put-upon cadre of women way over there!"
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 9:10 AM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Interesting that the article frames her as an "engineer", her career has been in sales, with a stint as a "manufacturing engineer" and original background in microbiology.
I also do more work than those ranking higher than me at my workplace, and they're paid more to do the job. But I'm a man. So...
posted by vs at 9:13 AM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
I also do more work than those ranking higher than me at my workplace, and they're paid more to do the job. But I'm a man. So...
posted by vs at 9:13 AM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
You know what would do this even better? A union.
How true is this? Do the UAW (who seem to be engaged in a PR battle with Tesla right now) have a good record on parity for women?
Around here commercial/institutional construction industry is 100% unionized. Up until very recently their unions haven't given a sh**** about parity for women or just basic harassment free work environment for women.
posted by coust at 9:14 AM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
How true is this? Do the UAW (who seem to be engaged in a PR battle with Tesla right now) have a good record on parity for women?
Around here commercial/institutional construction industry is 100% unionized. Up until very recently their unions haven't given a sh**** about parity for women or just basic harassment free work environment for women.
posted by coust at 9:14 AM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
How true is this? Do the UAW (who seem to be engaged in a PR battle with Tesla right now) have a good record on parity for women?
Eh, it's a mixed bag. If you go to an auto assembly plant, union or non-union, you will see a fair number of women production workers. Certainly not 50/50, but much better than other sectors of manufacturing where you can walk an entire production line and not see any women. I have no insight on parity of pay or handling of harassment grievances, I only see what I see as an engineering contractor.
For this situation, since she is an engineer, she wouldn't fall under the UAW's umbrella, though, even if Tesla were organized.
posted by dudemanlives at 9:16 AM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Eh, it's a mixed bag. If you go to an auto assembly plant, union or non-union, you will see a fair number of women production workers. Certainly not 50/50, but much better than other sectors of manufacturing where you can walk an entire production line and not see any women. I have no insight on parity of pay or handling of harassment grievances, I only see what I see as an engineering contractor.
For this situation, since she is an engineer, she wouldn't fall under the UAW's umbrella, though, even if Tesla were organized.
posted by dudemanlives at 9:16 AM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
So, at what point do we tell Silicon Valley that they have a problem?
When you are a robber baron who is enabled, applauded, and indulged, you are too busy believing you are untouchable to see reality, let alone read the memo that you are nothing but a pig with dumb luck.
At what point do we collectively put our foot down and make certain money is no fortress to avoid acting like a responsible adult?
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 9:16 AM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
When you are a robber baron who is enabled, applauded, and indulged, you are too busy believing you are untouchable to see reality, let alone read the memo that you are nothing but a pig with dumb luck.
At what point do we collectively put our foot down and make certain money is no fortress to avoid acting like a responsible adult?
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 9:16 AM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
First you'll have to invent the collective foot.
posted by rhizome at 9:19 AM on February 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 9:19 AM on February 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
I have a hard time seeing HR as "emotional labor." In my experience it's "prevent us from getting sued, protect management, and screw the worker" labor.
The way people on Metafilter use the term emotional labor is a kind of expanded definition. In its original sense, emotional labor refers to regulating your emotional state in the workplace, so in that sense, it applies to pretty much any people-facing position, including HR. It is their job to protect the company, often by silencing or discrediting those who raise issues, and a big part of how they do that is through emotional regulation and manipulation. And from their perspective, they often identify those who identify the problem as the problem themselves. They eliminate complaints by eliminating complainers.
Male dominated cultures put a whole lot of weight on bluster. They confuse confidence with competence, and that's why so much of the advice women get in the workplace and elsewhere involves posturing like eliminating qualifiers from their language and toughing out untenable situations rather than complaining. Everything is oversimplified, very black and white, and hot takes and thinking on your feet are valued over pretty much anything else. It's just counterproductive whatever your line of business is. It's also heavily rooted in emotions, despite all the sexist stereotypes to the contrary. Male dominated cultures often give much more weight to ideas that resonate emotionally than to those that make logical sense. And no matter how many times it blows up in their faces (not often enough), people keep perpetuating it.
It happens everywhere, including right here, but the more male-dominated an environment it is, the worse it usually gets.
Encouraging or allowing a culture of workplace harassment fits that mold exactly. It's counterproductive, it's nonsensical, and it has a lot of potential to blow up in your face. But they still keep letting it happen.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:19 AM on February 28, 2017 [34 favorites]
The way people on Metafilter use the term emotional labor is a kind of expanded definition. In its original sense, emotional labor refers to regulating your emotional state in the workplace, so in that sense, it applies to pretty much any people-facing position, including HR. It is their job to protect the company, often by silencing or discrediting those who raise issues, and a big part of how they do that is through emotional regulation and manipulation. And from their perspective, they often identify those who identify the problem as the problem themselves. They eliminate complaints by eliminating complainers.
Male dominated cultures put a whole lot of weight on bluster. They confuse confidence with competence, and that's why so much of the advice women get in the workplace and elsewhere involves posturing like eliminating qualifiers from their language and toughing out untenable situations rather than complaining. Everything is oversimplified, very black and white, and hot takes and thinking on your feet are valued over pretty much anything else. It's just counterproductive whatever your line of business is. It's also heavily rooted in emotions, despite all the sexist stereotypes to the contrary. Male dominated cultures often give much more weight to ideas that resonate emotionally than to those that make logical sense. And no matter how many times it blows up in their faces (not often enough), people keep perpetuating it.
It happens everywhere, including right here, but the more male-dominated an environment it is, the worse it usually gets.
Encouraging or allowing a culture of workplace harassment fits that mold exactly. It's counterproductive, it's nonsensical, and it has a lot of potential to blow up in your face. But they still keep letting it happen.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:19 AM on February 28, 2017 [34 favorites]
Also, generally speaking, the UAW locals I have worked around have been more concerned with maintaining the status quo WRT their jobs and are not really the most progressive bunch; but that's a small sample size so take it with a large grain of salt.
posted by dudemanlives at 9:21 AM on February 28, 2017
posted by dudemanlives at 9:21 AM on February 28, 2017
with a stint as a "manufacturing engineer"
The scare quotes around manufacturing engineer are unnecessary and hopefully only unintentionally insulting to engineers who hold this job.
posted by muddgirl at 9:23 AM on February 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
The scare quotes around manufacturing engineer are unnecessary and hopefully only unintentionally insulting to engineers who hold this job.
posted by muddgirl at 9:23 AM on February 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
Interesting that the article frames her as an "engineer", her career has been in sales, with a stint as a "manufacturing engineer" and original background in microbiology.
This seems like a really weird thing to bring up. The work she was doing was as an engineer, when all this happened. If Tesla didn't want her to be an engineer, they didn't have to put her into an engineering position. It's not like there's a shortage of engineers who want to work at Tesla. The fact that she'd worked in sales prior to moving into engineering seems completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. My previous career was in accounting, which is not relevant to my currently being a software developer and how I ought to be treated in my job as a software developer.
posted by Sequence at 9:32 AM on February 28, 2017 [28 favorites]
This seems like a really weird thing to bring up. The work she was doing was as an engineer, when all this happened. If Tesla didn't want her to be an engineer, they didn't have to put her into an engineering position. It's not like there's a shortage of engineers who want to work at Tesla. The fact that she'd worked in sales prior to moving into engineering seems completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. My previous career was in accounting, which is not relevant to my currently being a software developer and how I ought to be treated in my job as a software developer.
posted by Sequence at 9:32 AM on February 28, 2017 [28 favorites]
I also do more work than those ranking higher than me at my workplace, and they're paid more to do the job. But I'm a man. So...
So...this lower status is more likely to be a reflection of your ability than if you were a woman?
Is that where that sentence was going? I hope it was.
posted by howfar at 9:36 AM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
So...this lower status is more likely to be a reflection of your ability than if you were a woman?
Is that where that sentence was going? I hope it was.
posted by howfar at 9:36 AM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
The scare quotes around manufacturing engineer are unnecessary and hopefully only unintentionally insulting to engineers who hold this job.
Damn straight. When I was in e-school, manufacturing engineering was a whole co-equal discipline to mechanical, electrical, aeronautics, etc.
Minimising a whole professional discipline just to build a narrative that Vandermeyden's experience, what, doesn't count because she's not a "real engineer"? That's monumentally fucked.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:37 AM on February 28, 2017 [19 favorites]
Damn straight. When I was in e-school, manufacturing engineering was a whole co-equal discipline to mechanical, electrical, aeronautics, etc.
Minimising a whole professional discipline just to build a narrative that Vandermeyden's experience, what, doesn't count because she's not a "real engineer"? That's monumentally fucked.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:37 AM on February 28, 2017 [19 favorites]
Doesn't the US/California has labor laws that could come into play? I know it's not a solution for the women who suffered the abuse, but it seems that there's a need for a few high profile cases with severe consequences to the employers to start setting things straight.
(edit: well that's what the linked article is about actually... nothing to see here, move along)
posted by coust at 9:52 AM on February 28, 2017
(edit: well that's what the linked article is about actually... nothing to see here, move along)
posted by coust at 9:52 AM on February 28, 2017
I have a techie friend who positively salivates at anything Musk does but has been an active participant in women's rights marches and other related causes here in town. I am curious if he will realize his idol has feet of clay. Or if he will acknowledge it.
posted by Kitteh at 10:02 AM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 10:02 AM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
I have a similar friend and his idolatry was unaffected when I heard through the grapevine that the dudebro startup culture at SpaceX was so immediately apparent that it could be perceived during a job interview tour.
posted by xyzzy at 10:08 AM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by xyzzy at 10:08 AM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Encouraging or allowing a culture of workplace harassment fits that mold exactly. It's counterproductive, it's nonsensical, and it has a lot of potential to blow up in your face. But they still keep letting it happen.
Flagged as fantastic. This entire comment should be on a gd tote bag.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:14 AM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Flagged as fantastic. This entire comment should be on a gd tote bag.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:14 AM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
The gender pay gap for unionized workers is half that of non-unionized workers.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:24 AM on February 28, 2017 [31 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 10:24 AM on February 28, 2017 [31 favorites]
Who allows this shit in their office? I work in IT and in Silicon Valley, and mentor young IT techs. We're lucky in that we have an empowered and excellent HR staff, and if I even sniff someone leching on a woman, they're gone so fast their head spins. Who the hell just keeps letting this happen?
Note: I'm not talking about the systematic injustices of pay and cultural snubbing...working hard on that too, and it's a tough row to hoe. Cultural Bias is a monster to overcome.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:25 AM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Note: I'm not talking about the systematic injustices of pay and cultural snubbing...working hard on that too, and it's a tough row to hoe. Cultural Bias is a monster to overcome.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:25 AM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
SV rewards a variety of traits. What they don't seem to do a good job of understanding is that these high performing work teams could actually be vastly more productive if they weren't hotbeds of toxic masculinity.
It doesn't matter how hot shit you are at coding, building, etc if you bring everyone around you down.
The fact that SV is largely a closed circle at the top level with the same faces in VC and on a large percentage of the board for start-ups, etc just creates an environment where boys being boys is tacitly accepted if not outright condoned.
I would love for another loci for tech incubation to develop outside of the current SV environment that is ruled by a different ethos than the dominant tech-bro stupidity that seems to dominate SV. It seems like if you have other environments that talented engineers can choose from then you can potentially start creating an ecosystem that is different than the current paradigm. Unfortunately it seems like the culture present in other tech start-up cities seems to be more or less doing the exact same types of things that we find so problematic about SV.
posted by vuron at 10:47 AM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
It doesn't matter how hot shit you are at coding, building, etc if you bring everyone around you down.
The fact that SV is largely a closed circle at the top level with the same faces in VC and on a large percentage of the board for start-ups, etc just creates an environment where boys being boys is tacitly accepted if not outright condoned.
I would love for another loci for tech incubation to develop outside of the current SV environment that is ruled by a different ethos than the dominant tech-bro stupidity that seems to dominate SV. It seems like if you have other environments that talented engineers can choose from then you can potentially start creating an ecosystem that is different than the current paradigm. Unfortunately it seems like the culture present in other tech start-up cities seems to be more or less doing the exact same types of things that we find so problematic about SV.
posted by vuron at 10:47 AM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
What will the free market bear for inequality?
the free market will wedge in literally all the inequality it is possible to, that's the definition of a free market
posted by The Bridge on the River Kai Ryssdal at 10:52 AM on February 28, 2017 [10 favorites]
the free market will wedge in literally all the inequality it is possible to, that's the definition of a free market
posted by The Bridge on the River Kai Ryssdal at 10:52 AM on February 28, 2017 [10 favorites]
This isn't just a problem for the IT industry. It's worse for manufacturing.
I work across both those sectors. The people in charge, fuck it, the men in charge of manufacturing are older and more conservative than the people in charge of IT.
If you have finally noticed that IT has a problem with sexism, then I can tell you, it's a fucktonne worse for manufacturing.
I've personally seen a female engineer's cv dropped in the bin, because "women can't be engineers".
posted by happyinmotion at 11:07 AM on February 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
I work across both those sectors. The people in charge, fuck it, the men in charge of manufacturing are older and more conservative than the people in charge of IT.
If you have finally noticed that IT has a problem with sexism, then I can tell you, it's a fucktonne worse for manufacturing.
I've personally seen a female engineer's cv dropped in the bin, because "women can't be engineers".
posted by happyinmotion at 11:07 AM on February 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
fwiw - i have been fortunate to work for two pacific nw startups that were founded by women (one of them also had a female cto). the culture was a lot nicer.
posted by lescour at 11:17 AM on February 28, 2017
posted by lescour at 11:17 AM on February 28, 2017
Mostly related to the Uber stuff, I want to send an email around my company urging people not to use Uber, and I feel like someone around here has probably written something much better than anything I could come up with, that I could re-purpose. So, if you happen to have a link to a good starting point for such an email, I'd be much obliged.
posted by christy at 11:18 AM on February 28, 2017
posted by christy at 11:18 AM on February 28, 2017
This is maybe a bit tangential, but I've usually had the word 'engineer' in my job title.
I don't have an engineering degree, though, so it made me vaguely uncomfortable putting that on my resume. Know what happened when I went with job descriptions rather than titles, though?
Two things.
On the female sounding name version of my resume, I got calls about pink collar jobs that paid a fraction of what I was making, that didn't require the job skills I had, and did require a whole lot of skills I didn't.
I had a version of my resume where my gender was obfuscated too, and on that one, I'd usually get more relevant hits. But one time, I was asked to interview at a company (they must have emailed rather than called), and when I showed up being a lady, they pretty much demoted me on the fly, and started interviewing me for some assistant position to the job they'd contacted me about, asking me questions about who my SMEs were and stuff. As though it was impossible that I had actually designed these systems, so obviously, I must have just documented someone else's work. I don't think they ever fully registered that I got the information about how these systems were put together by putting them that way.
So I don't have the luxury of rejecting the engineer title on a technicality, and I'm guessing that she doesn't either. I'd very much like to not have to depend on bullshit and keywords to be taken seriously, but I prefer paying my mortgage.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:26 AM on February 28, 2017 [24 favorites]
I don't have an engineering degree, though, so it made me vaguely uncomfortable putting that on my resume. Know what happened when I went with job descriptions rather than titles, though?
Two things.
On the female sounding name version of my resume, I got calls about pink collar jobs that paid a fraction of what I was making, that didn't require the job skills I had, and did require a whole lot of skills I didn't.
I had a version of my resume where my gender was obfuscated too, and on that one, I'd usually get more relevant hits. But one time, I was asked to interview at a company (they must have emailed rather than called), and when I showed up being a lady, they pretty much demoted me on the fly, and started interviewing me for some assistant position to the job they'd contacted me about, asking me questions about who my SMEs were and stuff. As though it was impossible that I had actually designed these systems, so obviously, I must have just documented someone else's work. I don't think they ever fully registered that I got the information about how these systems were put together by putting them that way.
So I don't have the luxury of rejecting the engineer title on a technicality, and I'm guessing that she doesn't either. I'd very much like to not have to depend on bullshit and keywords to be taken seriously, but I prefer paying my mortgage.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:26 AM on February 28, 2017 [24 favorites]
...human resources isn’t helping me. They’re just protecting the company.’
There is zero chance someone of her intelligence and experience said this is any sort of a serious way.
There is zero chance she is unaware of the function of HR.
posted by Cosine at 11:32 AM on February 28, 2017
There is zero chance someone of her intelligence and experience said this is any sort of a serious way.
There is zero chance she is unaware of the function of HR.
posted by Cosine at 11:32 AM on February 28, 2017
There is zero chance someone of her intelligence and experience said this is any sort of a serious way.
There is zero chance she is unaware of the function of HR.
To be fair, that was a quote from her lawyer about what clients typically come into her office saying.
posted by hwyengr at 11:46 AM on February 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
There is zero chance she is unaware of the function of HR.
To be fair, that was a quote from her lawyer about what clients typically come into her office saying.
posted by hwyengr at 11:46 AM on February 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
This is maybe a bit tangential, but I've usually had the word 'engineer' in my job title.
My literal first job out of college was a tech support gig where I had a "manager" title. I wasn't actually managing anybody, there wasn't anybody for me to manage, because the whole company was like seven people and I was the only one doing my job.
I'm a white-passing man. Guess how many times I've been questioned about that extremely bizarre and inappropriate manager title. (No points for guessing correctly that the number is zero.)
posted by tobascodagama at 11:46 AM on February 28, 2017 [10 favorites]
My literal first job out of college was a tech support gig where I had a "manager" title. I wasn't actually managing anybody, there wasn't anybody for me to manage, because the whole company was like seven people and I was the only one doing my job.
I'm a white-passing man. Guess how many times I've been questioned about that extremely bizarre and inappropriate manager title. (No points for guessing correctly that the number is zero.)
posted by tobascodagama at 11:46 AM on February 28, 2017 [10 favorites]
Never really trusted HR, but after reading this thread I'm half way to picturing them in NKVD uniforms shooting people in the back of the head for the good of the father-company. Although, come to think of it I did compare an HR director to a Borgia once.
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:22 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:22 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
BrotherCaine: "Never really trusted HR, but after reading this thread I'm half way to picturing them in NKVD uniforms shooting people in the back of the head for the good of the father-company. Although, come to think of it I did compare an HR director to a Borgia once."
Well, then, at least you aren't being shot. You just pass away quietly in an ignored corner.
posted by Samizdata at 12:24 PM on February 28, 2017
Well, then, at least you aren't being shot. You just pass away quietly in an ignored corner.
posted by Samizdata at 12:24 PM on February 28, 2017
I wonder if it is unique that in all the places I have worked as a computer consultant, there have been staff, and gender has never ever even been considered.
posted by Burn_IT at 3:13 PM on February 28, 2017
posted by Burn_IT at 3:13 PM on February 28, 2017
gender has never ever even been considered
That only says that you haven't considered it.
posted by E. Whitehall at 3:40 PM on February 28, 2017 [20 favorites]
That only says that you haven't considered it.
posted by E. Whitehall at 3:40 PM on February 28, 2017 [20 favorites]
I'm not in HR, but have worked extensively alongside Hr Departments in a variety of orgs. Metafilter's idea of HR is the equivalent of lawyer-jokes or something in the broader world. HR is a big field, people, it contains multitudes.
posted by smoke at 3:59 PM on February 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by smoke at 3:59 PM on February 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
Do the UAW (who seem to be engaged in a PR battle with Tesla right now) have a good record on parity for women?
The UAW was the first union to endorse the Equal Rights Amendment in 1970. In 1974 the UAW assisted in the founding of the Coalition of Labor Union Women (CLUW) and its first president, Olga Madar, had been the vice-president of the UAW. For the first year of its existence, the National Organization for Women (NOW) was run out of the Detroit office of the UAW. The UAW was quite active in the recent Women's Marches. I'm sure it hasn't been all peaches and cream but the UAW has a pretty good record on promoting women's rights both at work and at home.
posted by JackFlash at 4:23 PM on February 28, 2017 [11 favorites]
The UAW was the first union to endorse the Equal Rights Amendment in 1970. In 1974 the UAW assisted in the founding of the Coalition of Labor Union Women (CLUW) and its first president, Olga Madar, had been the vice-president of the UAW. For the first year of its existence, the National Organization for Women (NOW) was run out of the Detroit office of the UAW. The UAW was quite active in the recent Women's Marches. I'm sure it hasn't been all peaches and cream but the UAW has a pretty good record on promoting women's rights both at work and at home.
posted by JackFlash at 4:23 PM on February 28, 2017 [11 favorites]
SEIU was also a major presence at the Women's March and pro-immigrant rallies I attended in Boston. Not saying that all unions are on the side of the angels, but it's clear who the enemy is, and that enemy is capital, not labour.
Also, I just want to point out that the original reference to unions in this thread was a response to a claim that HR is a major force for improving employee benefits and working conditions. To quote the exchange that brought unions into the thread:
"An HR employee can fight for benefits for the employees to increase health and reduce stress, conflict resolution is often an HR duty as well. Obviously the company wants to save money and prevent lawsuits, but HR may be in the position to say, 'hey actually a nap room and a private space for breast pumping or nursing does much more for employee morale than the beer on tap.'"
"You know what would do this even better? A union."
And it's true. Even the best HR department is serving two masters. But unions answer only to their membership.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:26 PM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
Also, I just want to point out that the original reference to unions in this thread was a response to a claim that HR is a major force for improving employee benefits and working conditions. To quote the exchange that brought unions into the thread:
"An HR employee can fight for benefits for the employees to increase health and reduce stress, conflict resolution is often an HR duty as well. Obviously the company wants to save money and prevent lawsuits, but HR may be in the position to say, 'hey actually a nap room and a private space for breast pumping or nursing does much more for employee morale than the beer on tap.'"
"You know what would do this even better? A union."
And it's true. Even the best HR department is serving two masters. But unions answer only to their membership.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:26 PM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
I'm not in HR, but have worked extensively alongside Hr Departments in a variety of orgs. Metafilter's idea of HR is the equivalent of lawyer-jokes or something in the broader world. HR is a big field, people, it contains multitudes.
HR can only be as good as the boss/whoever holds ultimate authority lets it be, and that's it's problem no matter how ethical individuals might be. If the head of Uber or Tesla doesn't think something is an issue and should be ignored, then there is little HR can do. Hence the need for unions or some sort of unconnected third party (the courts, for example).
posted by lesbiassparrow at 6:50 PM on February 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
HR can only be as good as the boss/whoever holds ultimate authority lets it be, and that's it's problem no matter how ethical individuals might be. If the head of Uber or Tesla doesn't think something is an issue and should be ignored, then there is little HR can do. Hence the need for unions or some sort of unconnected third party (the courts, for example).
posted by lesbiassparrow at 6:50 PM on February 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
Can someone explain how unions, presumably representing both the women and the people harassing the women, solve this problem?
Unions have some benefits, but I'm deeply skeptical of them fixing the problems of entrenched bias in the workforce. Someone runs the unions. These are ultimately just different political operations. They may be better for the workers as a whole, but the underrepresented sliver of workers who are female, how does this representation help them? Someone want to show their work on this beyond the linked article showing a smaller gender pay gap?
posted by ch1x0r at 8:19 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Unions have some benefits, but I'm deeply skeptical of them fixing the problems of entrenched bias in the workforce. Someone runs the unions. These are ultimately just different political operations. They may be better for the workers as a whole, but the underrepresented sliver of workers who are female, how does this representation help them? Someone want to show their work on this beyond the linked article showing a smaller gender pay gap?
posted by ch1x0r at 8:19 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Literally nobody suggested that unions would fix the problem of sexual harassment in the workforce, just that the claimed pro-worker benefits from having HR departments are benefits that could be more effectively and consistently pushed for by unions.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:35 PM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 8:35 PM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Unions can enforce women getting equal pay for equal work and equal opportunity work assignments. If women workers are harassed and management doesn't address the issue, the worker can file a grievance. If the grievance is not addressed properly by management, then the union can shut down all work. A lot of the union shop stewards in the UAW are women. Your union shop steward is the first one you go to for help. The shop steward is your direct union representative and works for you, not HR and not management. Your shop steward works side by side with you on the job. They have the power to directly confront management on your behalf.
posted by JackFlash at 8:49 PM on February 28, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by JackFlash at 8:49 PM on February 28, 2017 [10 favorites]
Ffs... train drivers are still called engineers!
Tech companies seems to call a lot of their technical positions engineer, and it has nothing to do with having an formal degree in mechanical/structural/electrical engineering (which allows you to sign blueprints and actually carries a level of responsibility). It's been this way for a while, nothing surprising about it.
After a few years, whatever you're doing trumps what you studied in and nobody cares about your degree. Two of the best programmers I've worked with had totally unrelated degrees, one in visual arts (sculpture) and the other in music (trombone!). Another friend of mine graduated from acting school, started doing odd jobs for another friends company and managed to gain enough proficiency in programming that he's now a full time programmer and has no problem actually switching jobs since he has experience (he had friends to guide him and help him get his foot in the door though).
So women with microbiology degree doing engineering work, I say bring it on.
And about union being a force to help fix those kind of problems, my experience has been that unions act like their membership, so in occupations traditionally dominated by men (construction, city employed blue-collars, police, ...) they aren't a big force of change. Teachers and civil servant unions seemed to do better.
posted by coust at 9:47 AM on March 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Tech companies seems to call a lot of their technical positions
After a few years, whatever you're doing trumps what you studied in and nobody cares about your degree. Two of the best programmers I've worked with had totally unrelated degrees, one in visual arts (sculpture) and the other in music (trombone!). Another friend of mine graduated from acting school, started doing odd jobs for another friends company and managed to gain enough proficiency in programming that he's now a full time programmer and has no problem actually switching jobs since he has experience (he had friends to guide him and help him get his foot in the door though).
So women with microbiology degree doing engineering work, I say bring it on.
And about union being a force to help fix those kind of problems, my experience has been that unions act like their membership, so in occupations traditionally dominated by men (construction, city employed blue-collars, police, ...) they aren't a big force of change. Teachers and civil servant unions seemed to do better.
posted by coust at 9:47 AM on March 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
and it has nothing to do with having an formal degree in mechanical/structural/electrical engineering (which allows you to sign blueprints and actually carries a level of responsibility)
I have a formal BS in Engineering and that's not even enough to have a professional level of responsibility (I can't act as an authority under my own name, such as approving designs that impact health&safety or testifying in court). In the US that requires a 2-4 year apprenticeship and passing a professional engineering exam.
posted by muddgirl at 10:13 AM on March 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
I have a formal BS in Engineering and that's not even enough to have a professional level of responsibility (I can't act as an authority under my own name, such as approving designs that impact health&safety or testifying in court). In the US that requires a 2-4 year apprenticeship and passing a professional engineering exam.
posted by muddgirl at 10:13 AM on March 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
I have a formal BS in Engineering and that's not even enough to have a professional level of responsibility (I can't act as an authority under my own name, such as approving designs that impact health&safety or testifying in court). In the US that requires a 2-4 year apprenticeship and passing a professional engineering exam.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention that part (same in Canada). But I think you need the degree to be allowed to pass the professional exam and get the internship, no?
posted by coust at 10:24 AM on March 1, 2017
Oh yeah, forgot to mention that part (same in Canada). But I think you need the degree to be allowed to pass the professional exam and get the internship, no?
posted by coust at 10:24 AM on March 1, 2017
HR is a big field, people, it contains multitudes.
Have you ever had an HR department that worked fundamentally against management? I haven't, and I've been HR. So the HR department is either going to be cool because the CEO is cool, or they're going to be assholes because the CEO needs an asshole there. At best, you get "Aw gosh, why can't we all just get along..." types under asshole leadership, and they either enable the assholes or burn out rapidly.
posted by Etrigan at 11:05 AM on March 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
Have you ever had an HR department that worked fundamentally against management? I haven't, and I've been HR. So the HR department is either going to be cool because the CEO is cool, or they're going to be assholes because the CEO needs an asshole there. At best, you get "Aw gosh, why can't we all just get along..." types under asshole leadership, and they either enable the assholes or burn out rapidly.
posted by Etrigan at 11:05 AM on March 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
But I think you need the degree to be allowed to pass the professional exam and get the internship, no?
Yeah, IIRC this is true, but like 99% of working "engineers" don't need a professional license.
posted by muddgirl at 12:08 PM on March 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yeah, IIRC this is true, but like 99% of working "engineers" don't need a professional license.
posted by muddgirl at 12:08 PM on March 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Have you ever had an HR department that worked fundamentally against management?
Oh yes, in the case where behaviours were exposing the org to reputational and litigation risks; Where management was urging a smaller redundancy payout (legal minimum) as opposed to a historically higher rate; where time frames for a relocation/restructure were too short because of cost concerns; where corporation funded social events were going to have budgets stripped; where execs wanted to bend rules/laws in an off-shoring restructure, and more.
I'm not saying this happens all the time, everywhere. I'm not even saying it happens most of the time. But I find mefi's black-and-white stereotypes around HR wearying, and tbh a little ignorant. They are just people at the end of the day, and like people they do good and ill or a variety of reasons.
posted by smoke at 2:36 PM on March 1, 2017
Oh yes, in the case where behaviours were exposing the org to reputational and litigation risks; Where management was urging a smaller redundancy payout (legal minimum) as opposed to a historically higher rate; where time frames for a relocation/restructure were too short because of cost concerns; where corporation funded social events were going to have budgets stripped; where execs wanted to bend rules/laws in an off-shoring restructure, and more.
I'm not saying this happens all the time, everywhere. I'm not even saying it happens most of the time. But I find mefi's black-and-white stereotypes around HR wearying, and tbh a little ignorant. They are just people at the end of the day, and like people they do good and ill or a variety of reasons.
posted by smoke at 2:36 PM on March 1, 2017
So, at what point do we tell Silicon Valley that they have a problem? Because it's apparent they won't grasp it themselves.
Silicon Valley (and other tech hubs) know that there's a problem. Some individuals are reluctant to agree or recognize the scale of the problem. Many of those individuals are executives and managers fully caught up in their fragility who are being unpleasantly surprised at not only the vehemence of the feminist rage that they're encountering, but the steely eyes and lack of support they're getting from the men who have been telling them to straighten up their professional attitudes about diversity for a long time.
Change is happening and retribution will come quickly to companies that fail to make the appropriate adjustments. Uber is not going to be the only example.
posted by Revvy at 2:54 PM on March 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Silicon Valley (and other tech hubs) know that there's a problem. Some individuals are reluctant to agree or recognize the scale of the problem. Many of those individuals are executives and managers fully caught up in their fragility who are being unpleasantly surprised at not only the vehemence of the feminist rage that they're encountering, but the steely eyes and lack of support they're getting from the men who have been telling them to straighten up their professional attitudes about diversity for a long time.
Change is happening and retribution will come quickly to companies that fail to make the appropriate adjustments. Uber is not going to be the only example.
posted by Revvy at 2:54 PM on March 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
But I find mefi's black-and-white stereotypes around HR wearying, and tbh a little ignorant.
It certainly is not ignorant. The fact of the matter is that HR represents the classic principal-agent problem. There is no way to avoid this reality. The HR representative is hired and paid by management. It is impossible for the the employee to know if the advice or service that HR is providing is in the best interests of the company or the employee. And in fact, subconsciously, the HR rep themselves may not know because they have an inherent conflict of interest.
It is as if your spouse hired the divorce lawyer to represent you in a divorce. It is impossible for you to know for sure whose interests the lawyer is representing no matter how ethical or nice they seem to be. The lawyer themself may not consciously realize when they have a conflict of interest.
By default, the employee must always assume that HR is working for management and not for you. Sorry, but that's the way it is. If you work for HR, you work for management. If you want to work for employees, become an employment lawyer for hire by employees.
posted by JackFlash at 3:03 PM on March 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
It certainly is not ignorant. The fact of the matter is that HR represents the classic principal-agent problem. There is no way to avoid this reality. The HR representative is hired and paid by management. It is impossible for the the employee to know if the advice or service that HR is providing is in the best interests of the company or the employee. And in fact, subconsciously, the HR rep themselves may not know because they have an inherent conflict of interest.
It is as if your spouse hired the divorce lawyer to represent you in a divorce. It is impossible for you to know for sure whose interests the lawyer is representing no matter how ethical or nice they seem to be. The lawyer themself may not consciously realize when they have a conflict of interest.
By default, the employee must always assume that HR is working for management and not for you. Sorry, but that's the way it is. If you work for HR, you work for management. If you want to work for employees, become an employment lawyer for hire by employees.
posted by JackFlash at 3:03 PM on March 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
But I find mefi's black-and-white stereotypes around HR wearying, and tbh a little ignorant.
Please consider that some of us who view HR through a jaundiced lens do so because we work in either HR or HR-adjacent fields (anything dealing with employment practices), and that our perspective isn't due to ignorance, it's due to having seen how the sausage sometimes gets made.
posted by Lexica at 3:42 PM on March 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Please consider that some of us who view HR through a jaundiced lens do so because we work in either HR or HR-adjacent fields (anything dealing with employment practices), and that our perspective isn't due to ignorance, it's due to having seen how the sausage sometimes gets made.
posted by Lexica at 3:42 PM on March 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Silicon Valley Needs To Get Its Act Together On Sexual Harassment & Discrimination
posted by homunculus at 5:07 PM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 5:07 PM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
It’s Not Just Uber - "The dysfunction and harassment Susan Fowler experienced doesn’t just happen at Uber. It pervades our working lives."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:47 PM on March 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:47 PM on March 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
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posted by NoxAeternum at 7:32 AM on February 28, 2017 [14 favorites]