A Millennial Reviews: ‘Seinfeld'
February 28, 2017 12:54 PM Subscribe
Jerry’s dating life consists of a revolving door of physically perfect women whom he beds before casting aside over various superficial imperfections. Perhaps people have man hands because we’ve worked a day in our life. Rosie the Riveter had man hands. Jerry cares not. Jerry surrounds himself with failsons like George Costanza and opportunists like Elaine Benes yet holds women to an impossible standard of not being a “low talker” or a phone sex worker, or someone who laughs like Elmer Fudd or has jimmy legs. Women in Seinfeld are treated as disposable and renewable sex objects for our upper-class protagonists. Costanza burns down a woman’s cabin. Even Elaine finds herself complicit in a plot to discover whether a woman’s breasts are real and thus of higher value.
I’m confused by this. It’s a legit critique of Seinfeld (that I’ve also seen from non-Millenials) but is also framed as by a parodic dirtbag leftist. So I guess I give it a 5/10?
posted by Going To Maine at 12:58 PM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 12:58 PM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
And people wonder why Seinfeld has gotten a frosty reception when he's performed for millennials in recent years.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:59 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:59 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
I can't quite tell if the writer understands that the entire premise of Seinfeld really was that all of them were bad people who (usually) got what was coming to them.
posted by cmoj at 1:03 PM on February 28, 2017 [120 favorites]
posted by cmoj at 1:03 PM on February 28, 2017 [120 favorites]
I mean, that was basically the point of the whole series. The final episode underscored this intentionally.
posted by hippybear at 1:05 PM on February 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 1:05 PM on February 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
I can't quite tell if the writer understands that the entire premise of Seinfeld really was that all of them were bad people who (usually) got what was coming to them.
It doesn't matter, it's not about the show, it's about the writer, and, you know, nowness.
See the same writer's Buffy review for more if that's your thing, it's linked at the bottom of the page.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:05 PM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
It doesn't matter, it's not about the show, it's about the writer, and, you know, nowness.
See the same writer's Buffy review for more if that's your thing, it's linked at the bottom of the page.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:05 PM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
I spent the entire election process posting anti-Trump Disney Princess memes in reaction to his fascist treatment of Mexicans while completely ignoring the fact that Walt Disney was a Nazi-sympathizing union buster whose company recently tried to patent the phrase “Day of the Dead” in order to sell toys...Sharing your Hulu password is good socialism...Really the show should be called Past Seinfeld orUnModern Seinfeld so people understand what they’re watching...Costanza burns down a woman’s cabin...All too familiar are the smiling face and murderous bloody hand of the American government...When these pretzels make us thirsty, we should not eat more pretzels. You can turn down a Junior Mint.
This is an Alex Jones screed, not a review of anything. It's not even Jones. It's a bad markov chain generator that's been fed Alex Jones and Salon articles from the early 90's.
posted by GuyZero at 1:06 PM on February 28, 2017 [26 favorites]
This is an Alex Jones screed, not a review of anything. It's not even Jones. It's a bad markov chain generator that's been fed Alex Jones and Salon articles from the early 90's.
posted by GuyZero at 1:06 PM on February 28, 2017 [26 favorites]
the entire premise of Seinfeld really was that all of them were bad peopleYep.
In the immortal words of Rainier Luftwaffe Wolfcastle: That's the joke.
posted by MrJM at 1:08 PM on February 28, 2017 [11 favorites]
ha! young people, they're the worst. this writer gets it!
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:11 PM on February 28, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:11 PM on February 28, 2017 [15 favorites]
(So, it's like It's Always Sunny but with only one Kramer?)
posted by tobascodagama at 1:11 PM on February 28, 2017 [18 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 1:11 PM on February 28, 2017 [18 favorites]
I can't quite tell if the writer understands
Only ironically.
(which is a sort of interesting cowardice, he can't seem to genuinely like or dislike, except at a remove, and always looking back over his shoulder at some imagined audience)
posted by bonehead at 1:15 PM on February 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
Only ironically.
(which is a sort of interesting cowardice, he can't seem to genuinely like or dislike, except at a remove, and always looking back over his shoulder at some imagined audience)
posted by bonehead at 1:15 PM on February 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
I mean, that was basically the point of the whole series. The final episode underscored this intentionally.
Let me suggest that at least part of the reason everyone hated the final episode of Seinfeld is that the series did a terrible job of making this point. By making all of the characters likable in their horribleness, it neutered that message so that they didn't come across as malevolently evil but rather naïvely malign creatures co-existing with other malign people. Consequently, for the show to posit that they deserved a comeuppance at the end for their actions meant that the show denied its own truth.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:17 PM on February 28, 2017 [56 favorites]
Let me suggest that at least part of the reason everyone hated the final episode of Seinfeld is that the series did a terrible job of making this point. By making all of the characters likable in their horribleness, it neutered that message so that they didn't come across as malevolently evil but rather naïvely malign creatures co-existing with other malign people. Consequently, for the show to posit that they deserved a comeuppance at the end for their actions meant that the show denied its own truth.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:17 PM on February 28, 2017 [56 favorites]
Or it was just that no matter what they did for the finale of one of the most popular shows of all time it was going to disappoint.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:20 PM on February 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Sangermaine at 1:20 PM on February 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
In the immortal words of Rainier Luftwaffe Wolfcastle: That's the joke.
I dunno. Sufficiently ironic misogyny is, you know, indistinguishable from misogyny.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:26 PM on February 28, 2017 [38 favorites]
I dunno. Sufficiently ironic misogyny is, you know, indistinguishable from misogyny.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:26 PM on February 28, 2017 [38 favorites]
We're too many layers of sarcasm deep, captain. The hull is buckling under the pressure. The handwave drive is inoperable, and we can't wink our way out.
posted by Cranialtorque at 1:28 PM on February 28, 2017 [58 favorites]
posted by Cranialtorque at 1:28 PM on February 28, 2017 [58 favorites]
I think the point of the finale of Seinfeld was to rip the masks off of the four main characters.
The show existed in their bubble of superficial charm and self-amusement. They were always massive, entitled assholes, but they were funny and absurd, like an over the top cocktail anecdote. The finale was pretty clumsy, but I do appreciate the writers were going to finally take the veils of sarcasm and triviality off of the main characters and show what monsters they really were. It was a failure of craft sure, but I don't fault its intent.
posted by bonehead at 1:31 PM on February 28, 2017 [10 favorites]
The show existed in their bubble of superficial charm and self-amusement. They were always massive, entitled assholes, but they were funny and absurd, like an over the top cocktail anecdote. The finale was pretty clumsy, but I do appreciate the writers were going to finally take the veils of sarcasm and triviality off of the main characters and show what monsters they really were. It was a failure of craft sure, but I don't fault its intent.
posted by bonehead at 1:31 PM on February 28, 2017 [10 favorites]
Let me suggest that at least part of the reason everyone hated the final episode of Seinfeld is t
speak for yourself -- I loved it.
posted by philip-random at 1:32 PM on February 28, 2017 [9 favorites]
speak for yourself -- I loved it.
posted by philip-random at 1:32 PM on February 28, 2017 [9 favorites]
(which is a sort of interesting cowardice, he can't seem to genuinely like or dislike, except at a remove, and always looking back over his shoulder at some imagined audience)
AKA The Internet 2017.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:35 PM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
AKA The Internet 2017.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:35 PM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
See the same writer's Buffy review for more if that's your thing
That is not my thing. Buffy is "goth as hell"? And step off Giles, you "Millennial."
(I'm old and I don't get this schtick.)
posted by Squeak Attack at 1:38 PM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
That is not my thing. Buffy is "goth as hell"? And step off Giles, you "Millennial."
(I'm old and I don't get this schtick.)
posted by Squeak Attack at 1:38 PM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Next up: Is Don Quixote really just a self-aggrandizing nutcase?
posted by Taft at 1:38 PM on February 28, 2017 [23 favorites]
posted by Taft at 1:38 PM on February 28, 2017 [23 favorites]
Isn't the Observer a right-wing paper? So the point would be that Seinfeld is quite all right really, it's the critiques that are wrong and dumb and advanced by wrong dumb people who are wrong and dumb?
posted by Frowner at 1:47 PM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 1:47 PM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
I mean, that was basically the point of the whole series. The final episode underscored this intentionally.
The final episode was "holy shit, did you not get it? let me spell it out for you people. Now do you get it? PEACE. I'm out."
posted by ocschwar at 1:52 PM on February 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
The final episode was "holy shit, did you not get it? let me spell it out for you people. Now do you get it? PEACE. I'm out."
posted by ocschwar at 1:52 PM on February 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
I'm reminded that Seinfeld was very much of its time. I can't watch it now.
posted by MrGuilt at 1:55 PM on February 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by MrGuilt at 1:55 PM on February 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
(which is a sort of interesting cowardice, he can't seem to genuinely like or dislike, except at a remove, and always looking back over his shoulder at some imagined audience)
AKA The Internet 2017.
Remember when 9/11 ended irony and ushered in a new age of earnest sincerity?
posted by tobascodagama at 1:56 PM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
AKA The Internet 2017.
Remember when 9/11 ended irony and ushered in a new age of earnest sincerity?
posted by tobascodagama at 1:56 PM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
Much ado about nothing?
posted by humanfont at 1:56 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by humanfont at 1:56 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
There were few things more annoying than living in NYC when Seinfeld was running. Everyone just sort of assumed you watched it religiously. I got really, really fucking tired of
having to have the "WHAT? You don't watch Seinfeld? How can you not watch Seinfeld?" conversation. (It was kind of like the "Sopranos" conversation, only more often.)
posted by holborne at 2:02 PM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
having to have the "WHAT? You don't watch Seinfeld? How can you not watch Seinfeld?" conversation. (It was kind of like the "Sopranos" conversation, only more often.)
posted by holborne at 2:02 PM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
I dunno. Sufficiently ironic misogyny is, you know, indistinguishable from misogyny.
But this isn't a case of "ironic misogyny". The point of the show, as stated above, is that these are bad people doing bad things, not that they're "just joking".
So the point would be that Seinfeld is quite all right really, it's the critiques that are wrong and dumb and advanced by wrong dumb people who are wrong and dumb?
Generally, yeah. Or at least any one that misses the show's basic premise.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:02 PM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
But this isn't a case of "ironic misogyny". The point of the show, as stated above, is that these are bad people doing bad things, not that they're "just joking".
So the point would be that Seinfeld is quite all right really, it's the critiques that are wrong and dumb and advanced by wrong dumb people who are wrong and dumb?
Generally, yeah. Or at least any one that misses the show's basic premise.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:02 PM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
I lived in Portland during that time and everyone was like that about the show there too.
posted by josher71 at 2:03 PM on February 28, 2017
posted by josher71 at 2:03 PM on February 28, 2017
Confusing to understand what exactly the writer is trying to say - ironic send up of dirtbag leftist ironic send up of earnest but confused, shallow millennial left-politics?
But this paragraph was worth it:
But this paragraph was worth it:
Jerry Seinfeld, who lays about as an artist throughout the series, finds his arch nemesis in a U.S. Postal worker named Newman. Newman clearly represents unionized workers and is seen by Jerry as fat, slovenly, lazy, eccentric, and untrustworthy, when in reality he is living the life of the exploited. Newman works endless hours while needing to devise entrepreneurial side hustles with Kramer just to survive in Giuliani’s New York. Newman is all of us.posted by pmv at 2:05 PM on February 28, 2017 [18 favorites]
But this isn't a case of "ironic misogyny". The point of the show, as stated above, is that these are bad people doing bad things, not that they're "just joking".
Which was then juxtaposed with them having secure, well off, even somewhat glamorous lives (remember, George was decently placed in the Yankees front office, while Elaine was in the fashion industry.) And again, we have a cultural tendency to the just world fallacy, which colors how we view how characters read. Which is why the message comes off as ironic - yes, these are horrible people, but they didn't get the book thrown at them until the very last episode (and when that book came, it was in a binding that was itself controversial (remember, they were tried for breaking a Good Samaritan law.))
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:11 PM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
Which was then juxtaposed with them having secure, well off, even somewhat glamorous lives (remember, George was decently placed in the Yankees front office, while Elaine was in the fashion industry.) And again, we have a cultural tendency to the just world fallacy, which colors how we view how characters read. Which is why the message comes off as ironic - yes, these are horrible people, but they didn't get the book thrown at them until the very last episode (and when that book came, it was in a binding that was itself controversial (remember, they were tried for breaking a Good Samaritan law.))
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:11 PM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
The final episode was "holy shit, did you not get it? let me spell it out for you people. Now do you get it? PEACE. I'm out."
And for those who still didn't get it, Curb Your Enthusiasm was a decade-long rant of the form "see, horrible people. I meant it then and I mean it now. I can keep escalating the comic horribleness until those in the back of the class finally pick up what I'm throwing down here."
posted by zachlipton at 2:19 PM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
And for those who still didn't get it, Curb Your Enthusiasm was a decade-long rant of the form "see, horrible people. I meant it then and I mean it now. I can keep escalating the comic horribleness until those in the back of the class finally pick up what I'm throwing down here."
posted by zachlipton at 2:19 PM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm a millennial and I watched Seinfeld when it was on.
posted by potrzebie at 2:20 PM on February 28, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 2:20 PM on February 28, 2017 [9 favorites]
Newman clearly represents unionized workers and is seen by Jerry as fat, slovenly, lazy, eccentric, and untrustworthy, when in reality he is living the life of the exploited. Newman works endless hours while needing to devise entrepreneurial side hustles with Kramer just to survive in Giuliani’s New York.
This is bizarre. Regardless of how you want to interpret it, Newman was clearly living in a world of three-hour work breaks ("Junk Mail"). At one point, he just stops delivering the mail altogether ("Andrea Doria")! And he can afford to live in the same building as Jerry. No, Newman's living the good life, except that he never got that transfer to Hawaii.
posted by praemunire at 2:21 PM on February 28, 2017 [9 favorites]
This is bizarre. Regardless of how you want to interpret it, Newman was clearly living in a world of three-hour work breaks ("Junk Mail"). At one point, he just stops delivering the mail altogether ("Andrea Doria")! And he can afford to live in the same building as Jerry. No, Newman's living the good life, except that he never got that transfer to Hawaii.
posted by praemunire at 2:21 PM on February 28, 2017 [9 favorites]
It's like the characters had some sort of developmental impairment when it came to emotional and emphatic function. Almost like it stopped when they were toddlers. I'm sure there's a snappier way of putting that.
posted by bonehead at 2:22 PM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 2:22 PM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
Which was then juxtaposed with them having secure, well off, even somewhat glamorous lives (remember, George was decently placed in the Yankees front office, while Elaine was in the fashion industry.)
George is actually a good argument against your point: his fortunes rose and fell during the series as he got or was fired from various jobs due to his laziness, selfishness, and incompetence. He was even forced to move back in with his parents for a time when he couldn't afford living on his own anymore.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:23 PM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
George is actually a good argument against your point: his fortunes rose and fell during the series as he got or was fired from various jobs due to his laziness, selfishness, and incompetence. He was even forced to move back in with his parents for a time when he couldn't afford living on his own anymore.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:23 PM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
It's Always Sunny is about border-blue collar/service industry workers who are chronically without health insurance, or housing, expressing their misery by making one around them as worse off as them, in Pennsylvania. It perfectly captures the present moment, even though it debuted a dozen years ago.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:24 PM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 2:24 PM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
I didn't have a TV at that time (my 20s) and legit didn't even know what Seinfeld was for a few years. It's funny to me though because I've known all those people. Alphabetical cereal = me. Roommates who'd date a beautiful woman then go on and on about "well her nose is a little big". Cringe inducing but accurate about a certain overanalytical neurotic type.
posted by freecellwizard at 2:26 PM on February 28, 2017
posted by freecellwizard at 2:26 PM on February 28, 2017
That article is run-on, self-hating, wish fulfillment narrative for people to hate-read, except it never even rises to being hate-able.
Here's the deal about Seinfeld: it was enjoyable, funny, and very much of its time. MeFi, which is composed of a rapidly aging population, is pretty much of the same time as that tv show. The whole site was probably dreamed up by mathowie as he thought about this whole blog thing while drinking an OK Soda and watching Seinfeld. It's a cultural norm of sorts, and people make goofy-ass "what if Seinfeld but modern day" twitter accounts and we write young characters into our cable dramas that just discovered 90s comedies.
But just because characters are written as loathsome for their time doesn't mean the normal, non-controversial things they did in the late 90s are not now completely abnormal! And some of the framing in the show just wouldn't cut it in in 2017, not because the characters would be too loathsome, but because we have new awkwardnesses and unspoken rules and opinions on the old ones.
posted by mikeh at 2:27 PM on February 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
Here's the deal about Seinfeld: it was enjoyable, funny, and very much of its time. MeFi, which is composed of a rapidly aging population, is pretty much of the same time as that tv show. The whole site was probably dreamed up by mathowie as he thought about this whole blog thing while drinking an OK Soda and watching Seinfeld. It's a cultural norm of sorts, and people make goofy-ass "what if Seinfeld but modern day" twitter accounts and we write young characters into our cable dramas that just discovered 90s comedies.
But just because characters are written as loathsome for their time doesn't mean the normal, non-controversial things they did in the late 90s are not now completely abnormal! And some of the framing in the show just wouldn't cut it in in 2017, not because the characters would be too loathsome, but because we have new awkwardnesses and unspoken rules and opinions on the old ones.
posted by mikeh at 2:27 PM on February 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
Jake Flores is a journalist and satire writer, whose work can be found on Cracked.com, Vice, and Animeme Rap Battles.
Observer is the Kushner publication that people keep on warning against, right? It's a true testament to our post-Poe's Law climate that I can't tell if this is a real profile description or if Trump's mediamen invented this bio to make fun of Gen Y, not unlike Marshall Harford III.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:28 PM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
Observer is the Kushner publication that people keep on warning against, right? It's a true testament to our post-Poe's Law climate that I can't tell if this is a real profile description or if Trump's mediamen invented this bio to make fun of Gen Y, not unlike Marshall Harford III.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:28 PM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
I got really, really fucking tired of having to have the "WHAT? You don't watch Seinfeld? How can you not watch Seinfeld?" conversation. (It was kind of like the "Sopranos" "Six Feet Under" "Deadwood" "The Wire" "Breaking Bad" "Game of Thrones" conversation, only more often.)
Oh I give up.
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:32 PM on February 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
Oh I give up.
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:32 PM on February 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
Seinfeld is very much not "of its time". The particulars of the show are, sure, but the underlying concept that people, and society and many of its conventions, are petty and ridiculous is timeless. A lot of the "modern Seinfeld" ideas thrown around are bad but it really would work just as well today as it did then.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:35 PM on February 28, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by Sangermaine at 2:35 PM on February 28, 2017 [12 favorites]
Hot take: Seinfeld is just a modern retelling of a Molière comedy.
posted by zachlipton at 2:40 PM on February 28, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 2:40 PM on February 28, 2017 [9 favorites]
Kramer burned down the cabin.
posted by valkane at 2:41 PM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by valkane at 2:41 PM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
I get Seinfeld. I don't need to talk about Seinfeld. What I don't get is what the hell voice Jake Flores is adopting in these write-ups.
Is he spoofing his idea of a teenaged ding-dong? Does he actually just write like a cliché teenaged ding-dong? In his Buffy piece, is he purposefully so full of pop culture references that his sentences make no sense? Is he purposefully juxtaposing all those pop culture references with his complete lack of knowledge about Buffy itself or the time it was made? Or is he really just an idiot?
posted by Squeak Attack at 2:44 PM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
Is he spoofing his idea of a teenaged ding-dong? Does he actually just write like a cliché teenaged ding-dong? In his Buffy piece, is he purposefully so full of pop culture references that his sentences make no sense? Is he purposefully juxtaposing all those pop culture references with his complete lack of knowledge about Buffy itself or the time it was made? Or is he really just an idiot?
posted by Squeak Attack at 2:44 PM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
Guys, guys! I don't think Basil Fawlty is as good at running a hotel as the show makes out!
posted by comealongpole at 2:45 PM on February 28, 2017 [29 favorites]
posted by comealongpole at 2:45 PM on February 28, 2017 [29 favorites]
Animeme Rap Battles, everybody
Animeme Rap Battles
Animeme...Rap...Battles.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:08 PM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Animeme Rap Battles
Animeme...Rap...Battles.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:08 PM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Except for the new technologies
No, it would just be about different petty, stupid things. If anything, modern technology and social media have opened up a whole new world of petty stupidity to exploit, a fine new layer of idiocy on top of the idiocy of the physical world.
posted by Sangermaine at 3:11 PM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
No, it would just be about different petty, stupid things. If anything, modern technology and social media have opened up a whole new world of petty stupidity to exploit, a fine new layer of idiocy on top of the idiocy of the physical world.
posted by Sangermaine at 3:11 PM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
Metafilter: It's a bad markov chain generator that's been fed Alex Jones and Salon articles from the early 90's.
posted by 445supermag at 3:25 PM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by 445supermag at 3:25 PM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
It’s a legit critique of Seinfeld (that I’ve also seen from non-Millenials) but is also framed as by a parodic dirtbag leftist. So I guess I give it a 5/10?
In A Millennial Reviews Star Trek it's more clear that the target of the satire is the parodic dirtbag leftist millennial. I mean, it's not done well, but at least it's clear what the intended target is.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 3:30 PM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
In A Millennial Reviews Star Trek it's more clear that the target of the satire is the parodic dirtbag leftist millennial. I mean, it's not done well, but at least it's clear what the intended target is.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 3:30 PM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
One of very few Seinfeld episodes I ever watched showed Jerry rinsing and racking dishes which happened to be the very same kind my partner and I were eating from as we watched: "Dixie Dogwood" by Joni.
Those dishes make explicit reference to the legend that Christ was crucified on a dogwood cross, and I wondered then whether there might be a little more going on there than the self-consciously frothy superficiality of the show would lead a person to expect, and with the later(?) "Festivus" business, I was sure of it.
Seinfeld is a comedy in the great tradition.
posted by jamjam at 3:36 PM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Those dishes make explicit reference to the legend that Christ was crucified on a dogwood cross, and I wondered then whether there might be a little more going on there than the self-consciously frothy superficiality of the show would lead a person to expect, and with the later(?) "Festivus" business, I was sure of it.
Seinfeld is a comedy in the great tradition.
posted by jamjam at 3:36 PM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
it's more clear that the target of the satire is the parodic dirtbag leftist millennial
Well, fuck this guy then.
posted by Squeak Attack at 3:37 PM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
Well, fuck this guy then.
posted by Squeak Attack at 3:37 PM on February 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
Guys, guys! I don't think Basil Fawlty is as good at running a hotel as the show makes out!
Respectfully, I think that Basil Fawlty is exactly as good at running a hotel as the show makes out.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:07 PM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
Respectfully, I think that Basil Fawlty is exactly as good at running a hotel as the show makes out.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:07 PM on February 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
it's more clear that the target of the satire is the parodic dirtbag leftist millennial
Well, fuck this guy then.
I'm not saying that this was a good parody, but I think that if the dirtbag left doesn't want to be parodied they would better advertise that with a less ironic label.
They'd be parodied either way, of course. But the defensiveness would seem more deserved.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:09 PM on February 28, 2017
Well, fuck this guy then.
I'm not saying that this was a good parody, but I think that if the dirtbag left doesn't want to be parodied they would better advertise that with a less ironic label.
They'd be parodied either way, of course. But the defensiveness would seem more deserved.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:09 PM on February 28, 2017
A lot of the "modern Seinfeld" ideas thrown around are bad but it really would work just as well today as it did then.
As evidenced by the fact that George Costanza is basically just Larry David, who has continued to do just fine with virtually the same character in Curb Your Enthusiasm.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 4:33 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
As evidenced by the fact that George Costanza is basically just Larry David, who has continued to do just fine with virtually the same character in Curb Your Enthusiasm.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 4:33 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
it's more clear that the target of the satire is the parodic dirtbag leftist millennial
I'm not saying that this was a good parody, but I think that if the dirtbag left doesn't want to be parodied they would better advertise that with a less ironic label.
It's not even really a parody of that specific guy though - these are a jumble of all the different "those damn millennials" tropes to the point that I think it has to be a meta-parody of parodies of millennials. (The writer appears to be a fairly young person who retweets a bunch of the "dirtbag left" folks, so I am right!)
posted by atoxyl at 4:35 PM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm not saying that this was a good parody, but I think that if the dirtbag left doesn't want to be parodied they would better advertise that with a less ironic label.
It's not even really a parody of that specific guy though - these are a jumble of all the different "those damn millennials" tropes to the point that I think it has to be a meta-parody of parodies of millennials. (The writer appears to be a fairly young person who retweets a bunch of the "dirtbag left" folks, so I am right!)
posted by atoxyl at 4:35 PM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
Which was then juxtaposed with them having secure, well off, even somewhat glamorous lives (remember, George was decently placed in the Yankees front office, while Elaine was in the fashion industry.)
What the what? George, who the show often describes as a "a short, stocky, dim-witted bald man" is the perennial loser. He is grossly incompetent, lazy, and generally a liability everywhere he goes. He is only hired by the Yankees because Jerry (the writer, not the character) hates the Yankees and wanted to characterize them as a organization, and Steinbrenner specifically, as always making the absolute worst choices.
And Elaine... she single handedly destroyed every employer she has ever worked for. Some multiple times!
posted by danny the boy at 4:43 PM on February 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
What the what? George, who the show often describes as a "a short, stocky, dim-witted bald man" is the perennial loser. He is grossly incompetent, lazy, and generally a liability everywhere he goes. He is only hired by the Yankees because Jerry (the writer, not the character) hates the Yankees and wanted to characterize them as a organization, and Steinbrenner specifically, as always making the absolute worst choices.
And Elaine... she single handedly destroyed every employer she has ever worked for. Some multiple times!
posted by danny the boy at 4:43 PM on February 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
She turned Mr. Pitt into Hitler! She embezzled from J Peterman and was fired twice! Were we watching the same show?
posted by danny the boy at 4:47 PM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by danny the boy at 4:47 PM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
Forest for trees, something something. Newman!
posted by Beholder at 5:06 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Beholder at 5:06 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
>A lot of the "modern Seinfeld" ideas thrown around are bad but it really would work just as well today as it did then.
As evidenced by the fact that George Costanza is basically just Larry David, who has continued to do just fine with virtually the same character in Curb Your Enthusiasm.
I never really got into Seinfeld back in the 90's (mostly because all my uni friends ever wanted to do was smoke pot and watch TV, which I found boring), but I sure love Curb. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because all of the characters in Seinfeld are caricatures, whereas in Curb at least something actually happens over the course of the series...
posted by My Dad at 5:25 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
As evidenced by the fact that George Costanza is basically just Larry David, who has continued to do just fine with virtually the same character in Curb Your Enthusiasm.
I never really got into Seinfeld back in the 90's (mostly because all my uni friends ever wanted to do was smoke pot and watch TV, which I found boring), but I sure love Curb. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because all of the characters in Seinfeld are caricatures, whereas in Curb at least something actually happens over the course of the series...
posted by My Dad at 5:25 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
The characters on Seinfeld cause disaster wherever they go and yet keep having more opportunities, never really punished for what they did wrong (until the final episode). It makes me suspect New York City is really like that just because of some of its most famous real-life characters doing the same, one of whose name rhymes with Ronald Dump.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:18 PM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:18 PM on February 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
My 19-y.o. first-generation-in-the-US Mexican-heritage former coworker, a hilarious skater dude from LA, discovered Seinfeld a little over two years ago, just before there was a PR-stunt architectural installation of Jerry's apartment in LA in celebration of some syndication agreement or other. He was able to walk though the apartment (along with millions of other Angelenos) during a holiday visit to the family.
He initially opened social interaction about the show by asking, "So, any of you ever hear of this show, 'Seinfeld'?"
He was *so into it*. I don't think I can really describe how excited he was, not just about the apartment, but about the show. Every day, he'd want to tell us about whatever good episode he'd seen the night before.
I want to stress, it was *totally not annoying*, it was AMAZING. The rest of us were all somewhat bemused at first ("Uh, yes, we have heard of this show") but it was so delightful to see his joy in both experiencing and recounting the show that no-one ever busted his chops about it for even one second, and of course we all joined in when we remembered a show. Watercooler narrative that has an infinite shelf life: that is a rarity.
posted by mwhybark at 6:39 PM on February 28, 2017 [21 favorites]
He initially opened social interaction about the show by asking, "So, any of you ever hear of this show, 'Seinfeld'?"
He was *so into it*. I don't think I can really describe how excited he was, not just about the apartment, but about the show. Every day, he'd want to tell us about whatever good episode he'd seen the night before.
I want to stress, it was *totally not annoying*, it was AMAZING. The rest of us were all somewhat bemused at first ("Uh, yes, we have heard of this show") but it was so delightful to see his joy in both experiencing and recounting the show that no-one ever busted his chops about it for even one second, and of course we all joined in when we remembered a show. Watercooler narrative that has an infinite shelf life: that is a rarity.
posted by mwhybark at 6:39 PM on February 28, 2017 [21 favorites]
The weird Trump angle on this is that Steve Bannon made a great deal of money off of the syndication rights for Seinfeld. Meanwhile Jared Kushner (Trump's son in Law) owns the Observer. So it would seem that this is possibly some kind of passive aggressive snark from Kushner to Bannon. It has been reported that the two don't like each other.
posted by humanfont at 7:30 PM on February 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 7:30 PM on February 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
the entire premise of Seinfeld really was that all of them were bad people
Yep. In the immortal words of Rainier Luftwaffe Wolfcastle: That's the joke.
I think the premise was actually closer to: all of us are bad people. All of us, in our obsession with self, appearance, minutiae, competition, fear of shame. The audience laughed and were invited to identify with the characters and root for them, and in the end were being mocked for our own moral failures.
Elaine worked in publishing, not fashion.
I can't read anything from the Observer any more; I broke my brain trying to understand the motivation for A Letter of Apology from Bruce Springsteen for Letting Trump Win, which is garbage from premise to final punctuation. They are aiming to be head-scratchingly obtuse and I think their main function is to serve as a crypto-annoyance channel for the Kushner/Trumpiverse. Sure, let's publish an incredibly hard-to-parse wank of an article slamming the most successful comedy of its time, initially dismissed as "too Jewish" to air. If you can't understand the point of view, it's because you're not the audience.
posted by Miko at 8:17 PM on February 28, 2017 [13 favorites]
Yep. In the immortal words of Rainier Luftwaffe Wolfcastle: That's the joke.
I think the premise was actually closer to: all of us are bad people. All of us, in our obsession with self, appearance, minutiae, competition, fear of shame. The audience laughed and were invited to identify with the characters and root for them, and in the end were being mocked for our own moral failures.
Elaine worked in publishing, not fashion.
I can't read anything from the Observer any more; I broke my brain trying to understand the motivation for A Letter of Apology from Bruce Springsteen for Letting Trump Win, which is garbage from premise to final punctuation. They are aiming to be head-scratchingly obtuse and I think their main function is to serve as a crypto-annoyance channel for the Kushner/Trumpiverse. Sure, let's publish an incredibly hard-to-parse wank of an article slamming the most successful comedy of its time, initially dismissed as "too Jewish" to air. If you can't understand the point of view, it's because you're not the audience.
posted by Miko at 8:17 PM on February 28, 2017 [13 favorites]
That's the worst piece of published writing I've read in a long time. Just brutal.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:20 PM on February 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:20 PM on February 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
It's a cultural norm of sorts
For some version of culture. Not everyone watched Seinfeld even if everyone you know watched it.
posted by sockermom at 8:25 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
For some version of culture. Not everyone watched Seinfeld even if everyone you know watched it.
posted by sockermom at 8:25 PM on February 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
See, the problem I've always had with Seinfeld is that while the characters are definitely painted as losers and awful people, and sure the final episode showed them explicitly getting their comeuppance, I felt the episodes were always written in such a way as to try to kind of bring you in on the awfulness.
Like, sure, it's awful for Jerry to discard all these women for their tiny flaws, and Jerry's a bad person, sure. But I mean... she did have man hands, right? I have had friends like this, who agree that they're being a dirtbag, but don't really care and still expect you to agree with them. They expect you to be a dirtbag too, and suspect you're merely making the right socially-acceptable noises about being upset by intolerance.
I always kind of resented that about Seinfeld. Not to derail too hard, but I resent that about Big Bang Theory as well. There's a whole class of show that does this - make a shitty joke, but it's "okay" because they're pointing out how shitty it is, despite the fact that it feels like they're secretly elbowing you in the ribs and saying "But honestly, though, man hands, right?"
posted by Imperfect at 8:41 PM on February 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
Like, sure, it's awful for Jerry to discard all these women for their tiny flaws, and Jerry's a bad person, sure. But I mean... she did have man hands, right? I have had friends like this, who agree that they're being a dirtbag, but don't really care and still expect you to agree with them. They expect you to be a dirtbag too, and suspect you're merely making the right socially-acceptable noises about being upset by intolerance.
I always kind of resented that about Seinfeld. Not to derail too hard, but I resent that about Big Bang Theory as well. There's a whole class of show that does this - make a shitty joke, but it's "okay" because they're pointing out how shitty it is, despite the fact that it feels like they're secretly elbowing you in the ribs and saying "But honestly, though, man hands, right?"
posted by Imperfect at 8:41 PM on February 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
That was the worst word salad I have ever met.
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 9:04 PM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 9:04 PM on February 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
millennial laughing alone with word salad
posted by poffin boffin at 9:55 PM on February 28, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 9:55 PM on February 28, 2017 [17 favorites]
I think the premise was actually closer to: all of us are bad people.
Yeah, this. Maybe this speaks poorly of me, but I think we were supposed to identify with the hang ups and pettiness. With later cringe comedy--say, David Brent--I watch and I in no way imagine myself as him, but with Seinfeld there's a bit of "yeah, this is the part of me at my worst and most petty." A lot of the plots are centered around them doing, thinking, feeling or saying something horrible or at least petty, and then thinking it's unfair to have to face the consequences.
posted by mark k at 10:27 PM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
Yeah, this. Maybe this speaks poorly of me, but I think we were supposed to identify with the hang ups and pettiness. With later cringe comedy--say, David Brent--I watch and I in no way imagine myself as him, but with Seinfeld there's a bit of "yeah, this is the part of me at my worst and most petty." A lot of the plots are centered around them doing, thinking, feeling or saying something horrible or at least petty, and then thinking it's unfair to have to face the consequences.
posted by mark k at 10:27 PM on February 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
Seinfeld making fun of this kid would actually be a good episode.
posted by fshgrl at 10:36 PM on February 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 10:36 PM on February 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
The theme was carried on in Curb Your Enthusiasm by the father of Seinfeld. Larry David was a likable asshole. So I didn't miss Seinfeld all that much. But the last season of Curb was so over the top I was happy to see it go.
posted by waving at 11:15 PM on February 28, 2017
posted by waving at 11:15 PM on February 28, 2017
Cringe inducing but accurate about a certain overanalytical neurotic type. This. It's also why I'm drawn to Woody Allen and Larry David.
posted by waving at 11:22 PM on February 28, 2017
posted by waving at 11:22 PM on February 28, 2017
Meh. I can't help but think it might have been funnier as a "So, what's the deal with Seinfeld?" monologue.
posted by nubs at 1:06 AM on March 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by nubs at 1:06 AM on March 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
See, the problem I've always had with Seinfeld is that while the characters are definitely painted as losers and awful people, and sure the final episode showed them explicitly getting their comeuppance, I felt the episodes were always written in such a way as to try to kind of bring you in on the awfulness.
I mean, this is the point, and also the source of the continuing popularity. These are obviously juvenile, immature, petty people, and all of us are just like them, partly or some of the time.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:07 AM on March 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
I mean, this is the point, and also the source of the continuing popularity. These are obviously juvenile, immature, petty people, and all of us are just like them, partly or some of the time.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:07 AM on March 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
I am George Cantstandzya (especially when it's 2am and I can't sleep)
posted by nubs at 1:13 AM on March 1, 2017
posted by nubs at 1:13 AM on March 1, 2017
The first two paragraphs of this six paragraph article are hacky "Those kids and those damn video games amirite?"
It's a shame, because the bits about the show's dated misogyny and problematic aspects would have been an interesting read, but I guess shitting on young people was more important.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 5:50 AM on March 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's a shame, because the bits about the show's dated misogyny and problematic aspects would have been an interesting read, but I guess shitting on young people was more important.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 5:50 AM on March 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
In retrospect, it was a shockingly moralistic show:
1. Crew of people give in to worst parts of themselves (a thing we all do occasionally)
2. As a result, crew suffers in various amounts: George: always; Elaine: most of the time; Jerry: only some of the time; Kramer: not till the last episode.
I mean, what is more moralistic than a show that punishes terrible people for being terrible?
There's even an alternate-universe episode where they see what better people they could be, but aren't.
You can make a sophisticated argument that seeing the show from POV of a terrible character softens how terrible they are, but Seinfeld took pains to keep reminding you that all four of them were shallow and awful. They never softened up.
posted by emjaybee at 7:22 AM on March 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
1. Crew of people give in to worst parts of themselves (a thing we all do occasionally)
2. As a result, crew suffers in various amounts: George: always; Elaine: most of the time; Jerry: only some of the time; Kramer: not till the last episode.
I mean, what is more moralistic than a show that punishes terrible people for being terrible?
There's even an alternate-universe episode where they see what better people they could be, but aren't.
You can make a sophisticated argument that seeing the show from POV of a terrible character softens how terrible they are, but Seinfeld took pains to keep reminding you that all four of them were shallow and awful. They never softened up.
posted by emjaybee at 7:22 AM on March 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
At one point during the series Elaine worked on the J Peterman Catalog and famously tried to introduce the male purses as a "European men's carryall" and the sombrero hat as a office essential for people wanting to take a nap.
posted by humanfont at 7:30 AM on March 1, 2017
posted by humanfont at 7:30 AM on March 1, 2017
... the entire premise of Seinfeld really was that all of them were bad people who (usually) got what was coming to them.
And this is why I hated it. I like my fiction with a protagonist I care about -- at least on some level. The characters on Seinfeld made it impossible for me to care about a single one of them.
posted by DrAstroZoom at 7:38 AM on March 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
And this is why I hated it. I like my fiction with a protagonist I care about -- at least on some level. The characters on Seinfeld made it impossible for me to care about a single one of them.
posted by DrAstroZoom at 7:38 AM on March 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
The Sandinistas?
Really?
I mean, socialism is what, then, absolutely illegal under all circumstances abortions?
Enjoy your starbucks there capitalist.
Y'know, this piece not merely terrible (and I no rite so good m'self), it's willfully ignorant of even elementary googlable facts.
posted by Smedleyman at 7:53 AM on March 1, 2017
Really?
I mean, socialism is what, then, absolutely illegal under all circumstances abortions?
Enjoy your starbucks there capitalist.
Y'know, this piece not merely terrible (and I no rite so good m'self), it's willfully ignorant of even elementary googlable facts.
posted by Smedleyman at 7:53 AM on March 1, 2017
the writing on this and the Buffy article - weak, lazy and un-ironically generic. (however, i know lotsa millenials who dig Buffy. i think a reason why is the playfulness of the language, a sense of emoticon-speak. and simply, because high school is indeed life on a Hellmouth.)
posted by Mr.Pointy at 7:57 AM on March 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Mr.Pointy at 7:57 AM on March 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
I've gone through periods where I hate the show (because they are terrible) and where I love it (because I am also terrible, I just don't give in to it as often, and it's satisfying to have it confirmed that yes, this was a good decision on my part.) Also we still refer to useless people as "vegetable lasagna" around our house.
posted by emjaybee at 8:13 AM on March 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by emjaybee at 8:13 AM on March 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Archie Bunker was also created as a horrible character who all viewers would clearly see was bad. Look how that turned out.
Anti-heroes have a way of becoming heroes given enough exposure.
posted by clawsoon at 8:20 AM on March 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Anti-heroes have a way of becoming heroes given enough exposure.
posted by clawsoon at 8:20 AM on March 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
There are a lot of things to dislike about Seinfeld, for sure, and I do think there is a trap of depicting horrible characters in a funny way that leads to them being normalized and potentially lionized. It's like trying to do an anti-war war film. I think too many people took the meta-commentary about developing a show "about nothing" to be a commentary on the state of the TV biz and not about the show itself: that there was nothing redeeming or enlightening here.
That being said, I will always appreciate the show for bringing me moments such as a "Festivus for the rest of us"; "I'm out!"; and "the sea was angry that day, my friends, like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli."
posted by nubs at 8:37 AM on March 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
That being said, I will always appreciate the show for bringing me moments such as a "Festivus for the rest of us"; "I'm out!"; and "the sea was angry that day, my friends, like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli."
posted by nubs at 8:37 AM on March 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: ironic send up of dirtbag leftist ironic send up of earnest but confused, shallow millennial left-politics
posted by univac at 8:40 AM on March 1, 2017
posted by univac at 8:40 AM on March 1, 2017
Archie Bunker was also created as a horrible character who all viewers would clearly see was bad.
No, he wasn't. He was created as a character to show how social conservatism victimized the white working class, which is why he was played by a dyed in the wool liberal.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:42 AM on March 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
No, he wasn't. He was created as a character to show how social conservatism victimized the white working class, which is why he was played by a dyed in the wool liberal.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:42 AM on March 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
I should just give up on Seinfeld articles and threads as apparently I am the only person who thought there was exactly one good joke in the entire run of the show. It was a joke about how Jerry actually wasn't really funny, shouted at him by one of the prisoners at the end of the final episode. I was hoping to see something about how Seinfeld was funny for the generation that didn't see it's livelihood slipping away, but apparently terrible people being rather unfunny is timeless. Admittedly, I only watched a few episodes here and there because I could always find something better to watch, like static or test patterns.
At least college students these days realize that Seinfeld (the man, not the show) is hackneyed and boring.
posted by Hactar at 9:56 AM on March 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
At least college students these days realize that Seinfeld (the man, not the show) is hackneyed and boring.
posted by Hactar at 9:56 AM on March 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
There's even an alternate-universe episode where they see what better people they could be, but aren't.
But the alternative universe characters are themselves snobby. They're an exaggerated, comic version of nice that is just as awful as the attitudes of the main characters.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:59 AM on March 1, 2017
But the alternative universe characters are themselves snobby. They're an exaggerated, comic version of nice that is just as awful as the attitudes of the main characters.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:59 AM on March 1, 2017
I'm prepared to believe that the show's time has passed because everything is so terrible now and we don't need more terribleness in our lives. Seinfeld himself is not anyone I care about. But I will never not laugh at Newman's truck catching on fire.
posted by emjaybee at 10:37 AM on March 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by emjaybee at 10:37 AM on March 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
I should just give up on Seinfeld articles and threads as apparently I am the only person who thought there was exactly one good joke in the entire run of the show.
I'd wager that most people who didn't enjoy the show just don't bother reading the threads, since they aren't likely to enjoy those either. But, if it's any consolation, I didn't like the show either, to the point where, eventually, I'd race to turn the channel if there was even a hint of that ungodly awful theme music popping up since that was nightmare fuel as far as I was concerned. (That dislike did not extend to Julie Louise Dreyfuss or Jason Alexander, both of whom I find rather enjoyable in other things and John O'Hurley isn't all bad either.)
As an aside, since there is still Seinfeld chatter, a good friend of mine, many years ago, was dating a woman who appeared on Seinfeld in a small role. That she was dating a woman met with disapproval from her conservative parents. For this episode, the woman she was dating needed a business jacket for her costume in the show. Since she didn't have one herself, she borrowed one of my friend's father's jackets to wear. My friend, of course, notified her parents that "dad's" suit jacket would be on Seinfeld when the episode was scheduled to air. Now while the parents didn't approve of her relationship, they could hardly let such an auspicious occasion pass without mention to friends and relatives, so, in a sense, for the sake of that jacket, the relationship was given approval, the couple's status shared, the suit jacket made famous, and, now, many years later, the two are happily marriage with full acceptance among family and friends to boot. That certainly may have all happened anyway, but it's at least one good thing I like to give credit to the show for providing.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:40 AM on March 1, 2017 [14 favorites]
I'd wager that most people who didn't enjoy the show just don't bother reading the threads, since they aren't likely to enjoy those either. But, if it's any consolation, I didn't like the show either, to the point where, eventually, I'd race to turn the channel if there was even a hint of that ungodly awful theme music popping up since that was nightmare fuel as far as I was concerned. (That dislike did not extend to Julie Louise Dreyfuss or Jason Alexander, both of whom I find rather enjoyable in other things and John O'Hurley isn't all bad either.)
As an aside, since there is still Seinfeld chatter, a good friend of mine, many years ago, was dating a woman who appeared on Seinfeld in a small role. That she was dating a woman met with disapproval from her conservative parents. For this episode, the woman she was dating needed a business jacket for her costume in the show. Since she didn't have one herself, she borrowed one of my friend's father's jackets to wear. My friend, of course, notified her parents that "dad's" suit jacket would be on Seinfeld when the episode was scheduled to air. Now while the parents didn't approve of her relationship, they could hardly let such an auspicious occasion pass without mention to friends and relatives, so, in a sense, for the sake of that jacket, the relationship was given approval, the couple's status shared, the suit jacket made famous, and, now, many years later, the two are happily marriage with full acceptance among family and friends to boot. That certainly may have all happened anyway, but it's at least one good thing I like to give credit to the show for providing.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:40 AM on March 1, 2017 [14 favorites]
upon closer inspection, these are loafers
posted by entropicamericana at 10:48 AM on March 1, 2017
posted by entropicamericana at 10:48 AM on March 1, 2017
I'd wager that most people who didn't enjoy the show just don't bother reading the threads, since they aren't likely to enjoy those either.
As I suggested upthread, I despised Seinfeld when it was on its first run and I still despise it today. Yes, yes, I get (and got) that it was satire. I just never understood why I was supposed to enjoy a show when I couldn't get through 45 seconds of any episode without fervently wishing that every character would get run over by a truck. If I want to feel barely focused rage at other New Yorkers I can just hop on the F train, thanks.
posted by holborne at 10:56 AM on March 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
As I suggested upthread, I despised Seinfeld when it was on its first run and I still despise it today. Yes, yes, I get (and got) that it was satire. I just never understood why I was supposed to enjoy a show when I couldn't get through 45 seconds of any episode without fervently wishing that every character would get run over by a truck. If I want to feel barely focused rage at other New Yorkers I can just hop on the F train, thanks.
posted by holborne at 10:56 AM on March 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
Hot take: Seinfeld is just a modern retelling of a Molière comedy.
Seinfeld was the last plausible retelling of a Moliere comedy.
That genre lost plausibility with the advent of the cell phone.
It's since been replaced with comedies like 30 Rock, where the errors are made possible because the characters are pathologically bonkers, and so cannot be saved by their phones.
posted by ocschwar at 10:57 AM on March 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
Seinfeld was the last plausible retelling of a Moliere comedy.
That genre lost plausibility with the advent of the cell phone.
It's since been replaced with comedies like 30 Rock, where the errors are made possible because the characters are pathologically bonkers, and so cannot be saved by their phones.
posted by ocschwar at 10:57 AM on March 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
Can we have the counter part where a Baby Boomer reviews Portlandia and complains about how the characters are shallow, flawed, and self serving.
posted by ShakeyJake at 2:25 PM on March 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by ShakeyJake at 2:25 PM on March 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
i got dibs on the one where a gen-xer just sits around and hates everyone
posted by entropicamericana at 2:27 PM on March 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 2:27 PM on March 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
i got dibs on the one where a gen-xer just sits around and hates everyone
With the Boomers on one side and the Millennials on the other, can you blame us?
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:32 PM on March 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
With the Boomers on one side and the Millennials on the other, can you blame us?
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:32 PM on March 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
Millennials!
posted by grobstein at 2:43 PM on March 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by grobstein at 2:43 PM on March 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Very few sitcoms age well. Seinfeld is no exception. But it's impossible to miss the reality that almost every sitcom since Seinfeld wouldn't exist were it not for the precedents in tone and misanthropy that Seinfeld set. There are a lot of execs in cable and network TV (not to mention Madison Avenue) who grew up worshipping Seinfeld, and they aren't going to let you forget it.
posted by blucevalo at 2:51 PM on March 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by blucevalo at 2:51 PM on March 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
The Seinfeld finale is disappointing because it was designed to be disappointing. It is chock full of broken promises:
posted by HeroZero at 6:40 PM on March 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
- They're going to go to France. They land in central Massachusetts, the dreariest place on Earth.
- They're going to die in the plane crash. Again, they land in Mass.
- During the near miss plane crash, Elaine says something like "There's something I've always wanted to tell you." The plane levels out and she never says it.
- The news anchor describing the crash asks of Jerry and Elaine, "Will we hear wedding bells?" We never do.
posted by HeroZero at 6:40 PM on March 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
So...Beckettian...(except Beckett's funnier)
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:33 PM on March 1, 2017
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:33 PM on March 1, 2017
the bits about the show's dated misogyny
Which was a running joke about a) dating in New York. Seriously for a single, not poor, semi-normal, straight man to have a succession of way out of his league girlfriends in NY in the 90s was not that much of an exaggeration and b) TV shows where the doofy males have supermodel looking wives. It made fun of those tropes because he was so insanely picky and broke up with all his girlfriends for insane reason. Also remember Puddy- he was Elaine's male counterpoint of the good looking but vacant girlfriend that she was attracted to but didn't like.
I can't believe I just had to explain that.
posted by fshgrl at 9:50 PM on March 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
Which was a running joke about a) dating in New York. Seriously for a single, not poor, semi-normal, straight man to have a succession of way out of his league girlfriends in NY in the 90s was not that much of an exaggeration and b) TV shows where the doofy males have supermodel looking wives. It made fun of those tropes because he was so insanely picky and broke up with all his girlfriends for insane reason. Also remember Puddy- he was Elaine's male counterpoint of the good looking but vacant girlfriend that she was attracted to but didn't like.
I can't believe I just had to explain that.
posted by fshgrl at 9:50 PM on March 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
It made fun of those tropes because he was so insanely picky and broke up with all his girlfriends for insane reasons… I can’t believe I just had to explain that.
It’s worth noting that a bunch of people have also been talking about their own, different reads on it. All of these takes are, in fact, reasonable, and at some point the intentionality of the creators (whatever it may have been, beyond “these are funny jokes!”) kind of goes out the window.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:02 PM on March 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
It’s worth noting that a bunch of people have also been talking about their own, different reads on it. All of these takes are, in fact, reasonable, and at some point the intentionality of the creators (whatever it may have been, beyond “these are funny jokes!”) kind of goes out the window.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:02 PM on March 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
It’s worth noting that a bunch of people have also been talking about their own, different reads on it. All of these takes are, in fact, reasonable, and at some point the intentionality of the creators (whatever it may have been, beyond “these are funny jokes!”) kind of goes out the window.
No, I disagree. The trope of a man on TV or in the movies having a ridiculously hot wife / series of girlfriends and not seeming to like each other or have anything in common was well established and Seinfeld made fun of it. I was in my 20s then and remember it well. It wasn't my favorite show and Puddy annoyed me but that WAS the joke. Even if people on this thread don't get it, that doesn't change the fact that was the joke.
posted by fshgrl at 12:28 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
No, I disagree. The trope of a man on TV or in the movies having a ridiculously hot wife / series of girlfriends and not seeming to like each other or have anything in common was well established and Seinfeld made fun of it. I was in my 20s then and remember it well. It wasn't my favorite show and Puddy annoyed me but that WAS the joke. Even if people on this thread don't get it, that doesn't change the fact that was the joke.
posted by fshgrl at 12:28 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
The trope was well-established, yes. But I think that at some point the intention to make fun of the trope goes out the window if enough people don't notice the mockery and only notice the succession of women. Perhaps this is simply another aspect of how the show ages badly, or at least differently than was intended: alternate readings rise to the surface.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:13 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 8:13 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
More to the point - just because you're mocking a problematic trope doesn't make the framing of that mockery any less problematic. Jokes aren't beyond reproach, and you don't get a pass on a shitty joke because it's targeting something shitty.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:20 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:20 AM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
The trope of a man on TV or in the movies having a ridiculously hot wife / series of girlfriends and not seeming to like each other or have anything in common was well established and Seinfeld made fun of it.
I agree. Is it shitty in general that that was the social reality? Yeah. Is it shitty that is the basis of a joke? Yeah. Was it a joke at the time that a lot of people, even many women, thought was funny? Yeah.
Remember, too, that Elaine didn't just have Puddy (he was kind of her backup/booty call) she also had a string of inadequate/pathetic boyfriends that played on the fact that it was really slim pickings for women at the the time. The Maestro. The "Communist." Jake Jarmel. Joel Rifkin. The lazy, clingy freeloading British guy she had to chase out of her apartment because he was about to miss his plane. This is also poking fun at the dating economy of the day - as is the famous "Spongeworthy" joke, which I can tell you was 100% of social chatter the week or so after it aired (as was "Master of your domain."
posted by Miko at 8:34 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
I agree. Is it shitty in general that that was the social reality? Yeah. Is it shitty that is the basis of a joke? Yeah. Was it a joke at the time that a lot of people, even many women, thought was funny? Yeah.
Remember, too, that Elaine didn't just have Puddy (he was kind of her backup/booty call) she also had a string of inadequate/pathetic boyfriends that played on the fact that it was really slim pickings for women at the the time. The Maestro. The "Communist." Jake Jarmel. Joel Rifkin. The lazy, clingy freeloading British guy she had to chase out of her apartment because he was about to miss his plane. This is also poking fun at the dating economy of the day - as is the famous "Spongeworthy" joke, which I can tell you was 100% of social chatter the week or so after it aired (as was "Master of your domain."
posted by Miko at 8:34 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
he was so insanely picky and broke up with all his girlfriends for insane reason.
Right! The joke wasn't about the so-called imperfect women, it was that no one was ever good enough, which I suspect was also a bit autobiographical. I'd also add that I think saying Jerry "discarded" women is a mischaracterization. He wasn't a Lothario, many of the women broke up with him because he was so undatable.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:38 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Right! The joke wasn't about the so-called imperfect women, it was that no one was ever good enough, which I suspect was also a bit autobiographical. I'd also add that I think saying Jerry "discarded" women is a mischaracterization. He wasn't a Lothario, many of the women broke up with him because he was so undatable.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:38 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Didn't care for the writing style as I find it immediately off putting. What's next? A millennial reviews The A-Team in some sort of clever way?
posted by juiceCake at 9:45 AM on March 2, 2017
posted by juiceCake at 9:45 AM on March 2, 2017
A millennial reviews The A-Team in some sort of clever way?
In 1983, a crap TV show was put on the air by a network who didn't expect a hit. The show promptly became a top-ten Nielsen powerhouse. Today, still airing in syndication and streaming and after a major motion picture, it survives as a franchise in need of a refresh. If you have a network, if you're starved for ideas, and if you can acquire the rights...maybe you can reboot the A-team.*
*Hopefully without the sexism and mindless violence and mythologizing of war.
posted by nubs at 12:08 PM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
In 1983, a crap TV show was put on the air by a network who didn't expect a hit. The show promptly became a top-ten Nielsen powerhouse. Today, still airing in syndication and streaming and after a major motion picture, it survives as a franchise in need of a refresh. If you have a network, if you're starved for ideas, and if you can acquire the rights...maybe you can reboot the A-team.*
*Hopefully without the sexism and mindless violence and mythologizing of war.
posted by nubs at 12:08 PM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
*Hopefully without the sexism and mindless violence and mythologizing of war.
A serious question: what would be left? A cool van?
posted by Miko at 1:04 PM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
A serious question: what would be left? A cool van?
posted by Miko at 1:04 PM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
I pity the fool who loses that from the formula.
posted by nubs at 1:20 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by nubs at 1:20 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
You know I've never seen the A-Team. I recall Mr. T of course and I saw some commercials and I saw the Family Guy parody of it and that's probably enough. But I wonder if references to it and knowledge of it are fading. Apparently Dwight Schultz "Reg Barclay" was in it as well.
I'm definitely and obviously not a Millennial but a Millennial told a friend of mine he thought it was so cool that he grew up in the 80s and I'm not sure what to make of that.
posted by juiceCake at 2:16 PM on March 2, 2017
I'm definitely and obviously not a Millennial but a Millennial told a friend of mine he thought it was so cool that he grew up in the 80s and I'm not sure what to make of that.
posted by juiceCake at 2:16 PM on March 2, 2017
But I wonder if references to it and knowledge of it are fading. Apparently Dwight Schultz "Reg Barclay" was in it as well.
As H.M. "Howling Mad" Murdoch; just as BA had to be knocked out to get him on a plane each episode, Murdoch had to be sprung from a mental institution (which makes me remember how gross the show was about mental health/PTSD).
Knowledge of it should fade; it was a rather poor show, even as a kid in the 80s it had obvious problems (though it was fun for an adolescent male audience - pretty guest stars, car chases, explosions, military hardware, etc). It was formulaic to an extreme, and predictable as a result, and exulted in the adolescent male fantasy of white people's problems being solved by the application of force so that the pretty guest star would be impressed.
posted by nubs at 2:34 PM on March 2, 2017
As H.M. "Howling Mad" Murdoch; just as BA had to be knocked out to get him on a plane each episode, Murdoch had to be sprung from a mental institution (which makes me remember how gross the show was about mental health/PTSD).
Knowledge of it should fade; it was a rather poor show, even as a kid in the 80s it had obvious problems (though it was fun for an adolescent male audience - pretty guest stars, car chases, explosions, military hardware, etc). It was formulaic to an extreme, and predictable as a result, and exulted in the adolescent male fantasy of white people's problems being solved by the application of force so that the pretty guest star would be impressed.
posted by nubs at 2:34 PM on March 2, 2017
juiceCake, I don't even know how this is possible but I've never seen an episode of The A-Team.
posted by Room 641-A at 2:37 PM on March 2, 2017
posted by Room 641-A at 2:37 PM on March 2, 2017
In the same way that every Wallace & Gromit animation involves some sort of ridiculous Heath Robinson device, so too every A-Team episode requires them welding together some pile of scrap into some sort of deus ex machina machine (frequently lobbing cabbages, as I recall).
The rest of the episode was filler.
posted by ivan ivanych samovar at 2:39 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
The rest of the episode was filler.
posted by ivan ivanych samovar at 2:39 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
every A-Team episode requires
-BA getting knocked out to fly usually after saying "I ain't getting on no plane!"
-Murdoch broken out of mental facility
-team gets beaten in initial encounter
-team builds deus ex machina device out of scrap metal after initial defeat leaves them without resources
-Mr.T gets to say "I pity the fool"
-Hannibal gets to say "I love it when a plan comes together" after the bad guys are defeated by the cabbage flinging deus ex machina device
-Face fails to get the girl somehow or Hannibal undercuts the price on the deal he made for the A-team
posted by nubs at 2:48 PM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
-BA getting knocked out to fly usually after saying "I ain't getting on no plane!"
-Murdoch broken out of mental facility
-team gets beaten in initial encounter
-team builds deus ex machina device out of scrap metal after initial defeat leaves them without resources
-Mr.T gets to say "I pity the fool"
-Hannibal gets to say "I love it when a plan comes together" after the bad guys are defeated by the cabbage flinging deus ex machina device
-Face fails to get the girl somehow or Hannibal undercuts the price on the deal he made for the A-team
posted by nubs at 2:48 PM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Apparently Dwight Schultz "Reg Barclay" was in it as well.
I swear I just spent a ridiculous amount of time re-reading this, trying to figure out how Dwight Schrute from The Office could have been on the A-Team.
posted by zachlipton at 4:24 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I swear I just spent a ridiculous amount of time re-reading this, trying to figure out how Dwight Schrute from The Office could have been on the A-Team.
posted by zachlipton at 4:24 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
To be frank, I'm not sure what this thread is about anymore.
Perhaps the answer is: nothing.
posted by nubs at 5:19 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Perhaps the answer is: nothing.
posted by nubs at 5:19 PM on March 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
-Mr.T gets to say "I pity the fool"
-Hannibal gets to say "I love it when a plan comes together" after the bad guys are defeated by the cabbage flinging deus ex machina device
Oh god, it's an A-Team thread. I can't not comment on an A-Team thread. So two things:
1. Mr. T never said "I pity the fool" on the A-Team. Not once. Truly. That line is from Rocky III. No one wants to believe me when I say this, but I swear to you it's absolutely true. What's worse, everyone thinks they remember hearing him say it on the A-Team. It's like everyone remembering Sinbad in "Shazaam."
2. I wear a ring that has "I love it when I plan comes together!" engraved on it. I pretty much never take it off. I am otherwise a normal person.
posted by holborne at 8:20 PM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
-Hannibal gets to say "I love it when a plan comes together" after the bad guys are defeated by the cabbage flinging deus ex machina device
Oh god, it's an A-Team thread. I can't not comment on an A-Team thread. So two things:
1. Mr. T never said "I pity the fool" on the A-Team. Not once. Truly. That line is from Rocky III. No one wants to believe me when I say this, but I swear to you it's absolutely true. What's worse, everyone thinks they remember hearing him say it on the A-Team. It's like everyone remembering Sinbad in "Shazaam."
2. I wear a ring that has "I love it when I plan comes together!" engraved on it. I pretty much never take it off. I am otherwise a normal person.
posted by holborne at 8:20 PM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Every episode of the A Team also involved a 10 minute long gunfight that made the stormtroopers look like crack shots. Even as small kids we lol'ed over that.
Although, having seen Restrepo maybe it was more realistic than we thought.
posted by fshgrl at 9:11 PM on March 2, 2017
Although, having seen Restrepo maybe it was more realistic than we thought.
posted by fshgrl at 9:11 PM on March 2, 2017
2. I wear a ring that has "I love it when I plan comes together!" engraved on it.
Your jeweler really should have caught that typo. I'd demand a refund! ;)
posted by Joseph Gurl at 9:15 PM on March 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Your jeweler really should have caught that typo. I'd demand a refund! ;)
posted by Joseph Gurl at 9:15 PM on March 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
METAFILTER: I'm not sure what this thread is about anymore.
posted by philip-random at 9:26 PM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 9:26 PM on March 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh god, it's an A-Team thread. I can't not comment on an A-Team thread. So two things:
1. Mr. T never said "I pity the fool" on the A-Team. Not once. Truly. That line is from Rocky III.
I think the thread started out as being about Seinfeld, but somehow we got onto the A-team. And I believe you are right about"I pity the fool", though I'm not surprised the line is conflated with Mr. T on the A-team; Rocky III came out in 1982 and the A-team started in 1983 and IIRC Mr. T's involvement was a big part of the hype about the show; he was the hot pop culture thing of the moment.
posted by nubs at 6:18 AM on March 3, 2017
1. Mr. T never said "I pity the fool" on the A-Team. Not once. Truly. That line is from Rocky III.
I think the thread started out as being about Seinfeld, but somehow we got onto the A-team. And I believe you are right about"I pity the fool", though I'm not surprised the line is conflated with Mr. T on the A-team; Rocky III came out in 1982 and the A-team started in 1983 and IIRC Mr. T's involvement was a big part of the hype about the show; he was the hot pop culture thing of the moment.
posted by nubs at 6:18 AM on March 3, 2017
But the last season of Curb was so over the top I was happy to see it go.
It was. Nevertheless, I, for one, am happy to report that they are filming a new season of Curb as we speak.
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:01 PM on March 5, 2017
It was. Nevertheless, I, for one, am happy to report that they are filming a new season of Curb as we speak.
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:01 PM on March 5, 2017
Family Guy parody
Family Guy does not do parody. It does scene-for-scene remakes in which one of the original characters is simply replaced with one of the awful Family Guy characters, same way Robot Chicken does.
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:03 PM on March 5, 2017
Family Guy does not do parody. It does scene-for-scene remakes in which one of the original characters is simply replaced with one of the awful Family Guy characters, same way Robot Chicken does.
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:03 PM on March 5, 2017
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