chiromurder
March 9, 2017 7:32 AM Subscribe
chiromurder 😧 RIP neck 😧wrestling time 😧canine chiromurder 😧hoofer version 😧 cat not enjoy 😧 baby cracking 😧 his own baby 😧 exotic full gonzo
I have basically a permanently fucked up neck and watching these was horrible. I've only been to a chiropractor once, when I first got my herniated disc and I was desperate enough to try anything. The whole thing was so obviously a scam ("oh, yes, I can feel it... it's so much better now!") and I'm about 60% sure she is responsible for fucking up my neck even worse.
I have this weird thing now where some sort of pressure will build up in my neck or the back of my skull and every couple of days it will release in the form of this loud snap/pop that will resonate through my whole skull. Some days I can feel it in my teeth! It drives me insane at night, waiting for it to come, and it would be a neat party trick if I could time it right and put a microphone up to the back of my head.
Watching these was like watching a worlds worst sports injury supercut.
Also, yeah, I don't really get this either.
Ow. My neck hurts.
posted by bondcliff at 7:47 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
I have this weird thing now where some sort of pressure will build up in my neck or the back of my skull and every couple of days it will release in the form of this loud snap/pop that will resonate through my whole skull. Some days I can feel it in my teeth! It drives me insane at night, waiting for it to come, and it would be a neat party trick if I could time it right and put a microphone up to the back of my head.
Watching these was like watching a worlds worst sports injury supercut.
Also, yeah, I don't really get this either.
Ow. My neck hurts.
posted by bondcliff at 7:47 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
I keep thinking of the woman I met at the Y pool who was recovering from a broken neck courtesy a chiropractor. As much as I've enjoyed a minor adjustment here and there over the years it scared me right off. Cat massages are still okay, though, right?
posted by Room 641-A at 7:48 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Room 641-A at 7:48 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Chiropractic is basically Homeopathy For Your Spine. Not having anything get worse is the best case outcome.
Please don't.
posted by mhoye at 7:55 AM on March 9, 2017 [19 favorites]
Please don't.
posted by mhoye at 7:55 AM on March 9, 2017 [19 favorites]
Cat massages are still okay, though, right?
I kept hoping unhappy kitty would take a huge fucking chunk out of that guy's hand.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:58 AM on March 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
I kept hoping unhappy kitty would take a huge fucking chunk out of that guy's hand.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:58 AM on March 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
I don't get it.
Just one example. Don't read this if you're feeling squeemish.
posted by bonehead at 7:59 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Just one example. Don't read this if you're feeling squeemish.
posted by bonehead at 7:59 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
I mean, I see a chiro every couple years, and it helps with immediate problems. But I'm a grownup and I understand the risk. Anyone who does that to a baby or an animal should be arrested.
posted by goatdog at 8:00 AM on March 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by goatdog at 8:00 AM on March 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yeah, there's the making-no-difference-but-costing-money factor, there's the making-the-immediate-back-or-neck-problem-worse factor, there's the creating-new-back-or-neck-problems factor, and then there's the ripping arteries and killing or paralyzing you factor. Don't want a carotid artery dissection? Then don't go. And don't send your horse.
I couldn't watch to the end with most of them and noped out of the baby ones completely, but I got through the cat one just because the noises the cat was making were so promising. Does anybody have a line on a video that delivers the payoff? Perhaps there's a series of them featuring a zoo chiropractor? Doctor Crackins helps Randy the rhinoceros with his motility issues?
posted by Don Pepino at 8:07 AM on March 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
I couldn't watch to the end with most of them and noped out of the baby ones completely, but I got through the cat one just because the noises the cat was making were so promising. Does anybody have a line on a video that delivers the payoff? Perhaps there's a series of them featuring a zoo chiropractor? Doctor Crackins helps Randy the rhinoceros with his motility issues?
posted by Don Pepino at 8:07 AM on March 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Chiropractic is basically Homeopathy For Your Spine
It's no coincidence that the chiropractor I drive past every day also offers "BrainCore" neurofeedback therapy.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:14 AM on March 9, 2017
It's no coincidence that the chiropractor I drive past every day also offers "BrainCore" neurofeedback therapy.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:14 AM on March 9, 2017
"Felipe Albuquerque, a neurosurgeon in Phoenix who has studied stroke injury after neck manipulation... believes the patients that he has seen who had strokes following chiropractic manipulation had either a new arterial injury or one made worse by the manipulation.”
posted by Don Pepino at 8:21 AM on March 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 8:21 AM on March 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
Chiropractic is basically Homeopathy For Your Spine. Not having anything get worse is the best case outcome.
Homeopathy, but instead of being sure there's only a 100,000,000,000-1 dilution of arsenic in your water, you don't actually know how much there is. Not having anything get worse is the best case scenario, AND you're trusting your spine to someone who was enough of a credulous dupe to pay tens of thousands of dollars for a license to practice pseudoscience.
posted by Mayor West at 8:21 AM on March 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Homeopathy, but instead of being sure there's only a 100,000,000,000-1 dilution of arsenic in your water, you don't actually know how much there is. Not having anything get worse is the best case scenario, AND you're trusting your spine to someone who was enough of a credulous dupe to pay tens of thousands of dollars for a license to practice pseudoscience.
posted by Mayor West at 8:21 AM on March 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
X-rays:
There are many many many aspects of chiropractic that make me shudder and put it all out my mind. But the aspect that sticks with me is the x-rays. I know one who started a practice, and a key decision was what kind of x-ray machine to buy. It was expensive.
Everyone who goes gets x-rayed. I don't know how often. Like anyone sane, I really doubt the training behind chiropractic, especially around standard health quantities, like dosages. Dosages of x-rays, for instance. Most chiropractors seem to have rejected the tenets of allopathic medicine in favor of their imagination and ego, and I don't expect that x-rays are an exception to this rule.
I really wonder how many cancers are eventually caused by overzealous x-rays of chiropractors eager to make a show-and-tell of being a doctor.
posted by Dashy at 8:31 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
There are many many many aspects of chiropractic that make me shudder and put it all out my mind. But the aspect that sticks with me is the x-rays. I know one who started a practice, and a key decision was what kind of x-ray machine to buy. It was expensive.
Everyone who goes gets x-rayed. I don't know how often. Like anyone sane, I really doubt the training behind chiropractic, especially around standard health quantities, like dosages. Dosages of x-rays, for instance. Most chiropractors seem to have rejected the tenets of allopathic medicine in favor of their imagination and ego, and I don't expect that x-rays are an exception to this rule.
I really wonder how many cancers are eventually caused by overzealous x-rays of chiropractors eager to make a show-and-tell of being a doctor.
posted by Dashy at 8:31 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
I started seeing a chiro a couple years ago after some bad lower back issues. It honestly has helped. But I did look hard before going to find one who wasn't spouting or offering a lot of mumbo-jumbo. He has a massage therapist in his practice also. He's cracked my neck a few times, mainly last fall when I was having issues from too much desk sitting/hunching, and yeah, it's scary as hell when he does it but it did help.
posted by dnash at 8:39 AM on March 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by dnash at 8:39 AM on March 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
We need to rescind the practice of allowing chiropractors to approve handicapped parking placards. Maybe also using the title "Doctor."
UCLA Football Players' New Opponent: the Disabled
Scandal: As university probes charges that some team members falsely obtained handicapped parking placards, legitimate users express outrage.
Caught On Video: Doctor Asks For Cash For Handicapped Placard Even Before Exam
chiropractor seen on video apparently selling letters that allowed passengers to take emotional-support animals on flights for free also takes payments for approving handicapped parking placards, a CBS2 investigation has learned.
(My anger today at the UCLA story is just as great today as it was nearly twenty years ago.)
posted by Room 641-A at 8:39 AM on March 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
UCLA Football Players' New Opponent: the Disabled
Scandal: As university probes charges that some team members falsely obtained handicapped parking placards, legitimate users express outrage.
Caught On Video: Doctor Asks For Cash For Handicapped Placard Even Before Exam
chiropractor seen on video apparently selling letters that allowed passengers to take emotional-support animals on flights for free also takes payments for approving handicapped parking placards, a CBS2 investigation has learned.
(My anger today at the UCLA story is just as great today as it was nearly twenty years ago.)
posted by Room 641-A at 8:39 AM on March 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also: the only people who have ever referred me to a chiropractor for my health have been PI attorneys.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:40 AM on March 9, 2017
posted by Room 641-A at 8:40 AM on March 9, 2017
Also: the only people who have ever referred me to a chiropractor for my health have been PI attorneys.
Interestingly, I haven't met many personal injury or med mal attorneys who would ever visit a chiropractor themselves. They're more likely to warn people they know away from them, with extreme prejudice.
posted by asperity at 8:43 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Interestingly, I haven't met many personal injury or med mal attorneys who would ever visit a chiropractor themselves. They're more likely to warn people they know away from them, with extreme prejudice.
posted by asperity at 8:43 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Chiropractic is basically Homeopathy For Your Spine. Not having anything get worse is the best case outcome.
Only if you choose to go to a woo-doctor, of which there do seem to be plenty among chiropractors. However, the evidence is there that it's as effective in treating lower back injuries as conventional pills/PT and limited evidence that it can be effective in some patients for other, you know, spine-related problems.
It's not going to cure your asthma, and there are chiropractors who operate with the evidence available in account. And plenty who don't.
posted by cmoj at 8:51 AM on March 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
Only if you choose to go to a woo-doctor, of which there do seem to be plenty among chiropractors. However, the evidence is there that it's as effective in treating lower back injuries as conventional pills/PT and limited evidence that it can be effective in some patients for other, you know, spine-related problems.
It's not going to cure your asthma, and there are chiropractors who operate with the evidence available in account. And plenty who don't.
posted by cmoj at 8:51 AM on March 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
I know some folks in massage (go figure, it's Boulder). I've had some work done, and it's always been pleasant; I generally think licensed massage therapists around here have been pretty well trained and know what they're about. That said, one of the things that stops me from getting more into it is the temptation that a lot of them seem to feel towards chiropractic technique. I know I can say no if it comes up, but I really just don't even want to have the "I think that's across a line into potentially injurious bullshit" conversation.
posted by brennen at 9:05 AM on March 9, 2017
posted by brennen at 9:05 AM on March 9, 2017
I have this weird thing now where some sort of pressure will build up in my neck or the back of my skull and every couple of days it will release in the form of this loud snap/pop that will resonate through my whole skull. Some days I can feel it in my teeth! It drives me insane at night, waiting for it to come, and it would be a neat party trick if I could time it right and put a microphone up to the back of my head.
Ooh, I have this too. In addition to what you are talking about, sometimes when I pop my neck there's a weird metallic taste afterward.
When this first started I went to PT, and they recommended cervical traction. it helped so that I can actually turn my head, but I know things are still messed up in there. I sometimes wonder if I should try a chiro, but there's just too much quackery for me to get further than that especially since it is my neck. There is the alternative of Osteopathy, from which many of the principles of Chiropractic wasstolen borrowed, but don't really know that it would be that different.
Derail:
Why is it just "chiropractic"? It seems like it's just an adjective hanging there all by itself. Wouldn't it be better as "chiropractice" or something?
posted by ArgentCorvid at 9:18 AM on March 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
Ooh, I have this too. In addition to what you are talking about, sometimes when I pop my neck there's a weird metallic taste afterward.
When this first started I went to PT, and they recommended cervical traction. it helped so that I can actually turn my head, but I know things are still messed up in there. I sometimes wonder if I should try a chiro, but there's just too much quackery for me to get further than that especially since it is my neck. There is the alternative of Osteopathy, from which many of the principles of Chiropractic was
Derail:
Why is it just "chiropractic"? It seems like it's just an adjective hanging there all by itself. Wouldn't it be better as "chiropractice" or something?
posted by ArgentCorvid at 9:18 AM on March 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
My turning point on chiro was reading Trick or Treatment, a meta-analysis of various forms or alternative medicine. It's by Simon Singh, who also wrote the excellent The Code Book. For lower back problems, he concluded there might be some minor benefit, but he just said HELL NO on neck adjustments, and guessed the incidence of TIAs and other scary outcomes was vastly underestimated.
posted by sapere aude at 9:18 AM on March 9, 2017
posted by sapere aude at 9:18 AM on March 9, 2017
When I did PI plaintiff's work, I told clients going to a chiropractor the truth, which is that auto insurance companies pay less in damages/settlement for chiropractic treatment compared to physical therapy.
I have extremely strong feelings about how made-up chiropractic is and how the most favorable study showed it to be about as effective as PT for back stuff which I suspect is because decent chiros basically just do PT. But you can't share these opinions in mixed company because most people I've met who like their chiropractors defend chiropractic more vigorously (and irrationally) than they would their religious faith.
It's so fucking frustrating that it's even a thing in the United States, much less that states actually license chiropractors. Kind of like "homeopathic" labels on stuff at the pharmacy.
posted by radicalawyer at 9:19 AM on March 9, 2017 [9 favorites]
I have extremely strong feelings about how made-up chiropractic is and how the most favorable study showed it to be about as effective as PT for back stuff which I suspect is because decent chiros basically just do PT. But you can't share these opinions in mixed company because most people I've met who like their chiropractors defend chiropractic more vigorously (and irrationally) than they would their religious faith.
It's so fucking frustrating that it's even a thing in the United States, much less that states actually license chiropractors. Kind of like "homeopathic" labels on stuff at the pharmacy.
posted by radicalawyer at 9:19 AM on March 9, 2017 [9 favorites]
Cat massages are still okay, though, right?
If someone collects cats that love to knead humans, and opens a shop where they do that on my aching middle aged back, I'll pay.
posted by ocschwar at 9:24 AM on March 9, 2017 [11 favorites]
If someone collects cats that love to knead humans, and opens a shop where they do that on my aching middle aged back, I'll pay.
posted by ocschwar at 9:24 AM on March 9, 2017 [11 favorites]
I lucked into an amazing chiropractor who was is part of a clinic with multiple specialties; he comes from a sports medicine and PT background. He concentrates on stretching though cracking is occasionally a side effect. No x-rays, he referred me for MRI once when I started with him to verify that my neck was safe to work on after whiplash decades earlier, and then again when I tore my rotator cuff.
On the other hand my husband chose a crazy dude who thought that "luxations" caused all illness. Claimed he had cured cancer, depression, and obesity by releasing the blockages in electrical impulses. Tim kept going because it helped his neck but had a lot of fun asking the guy when it was going to fix his dead kidneys and why he kept gaining weight.
So I would never go to one without asking what they did before, what research do they follow, and checking carefully for magical claims.
posted by buildmyworld at 9:34 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
On the other hand my husband chose a crazy dude who thought that "luxations" caused all illness. Claimed he had cured cancer, depression, and obesity by releasing the blockages in electrical impulses. Tim kept going because it helped his neck but had a lot of fun asking the guy when it was going to fix his dead kidneys and why he kept gaining weight.
So I would never go to one without asking what they did before, what research do they follow, and checking carefully for magical claims.
posted by buildmyworld at 9:34 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
"checking carefully for magical claims" I first read that as "checking carefully for magical clams."
posted by Oyéah at 9:42 AM on March 9, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 9:42 AM on March 9, 2017 [9 favorites]
I went to a guy who insisted that cracking wasn't necessary because he didn't actually have to touch me at all. The entire thing is magical bullshit, no better than reiki or crystal "medicine."
posted by 1adam12 at 9:51 AM on March 9, 2017
posted by 1adam12 at 9:51 AM on March 9, 2017
Well, I don't know that most people would like to be surprised by unplanned-for magical clams. I wouldn't.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 9:51 AM on March 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 9:51 AM on March 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
I would not trust a magical clam for any medical care. Not any shellfish really, magical or mundane.
posted by buildmyworld at 10:01 AM on March 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by buildmyworld at 10:01 AM on March 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Look, guys, I know most of these chiropractors are quacks but magical clams have really helped with my sore mussels.
posted by bondcliff at 10:11 AM on March 9, 2017 [65 favorites]
posted by bondcliff at 10:11 AM on March 9, 2017 [65 favorites]
After defeating the chiromera, I search the room for magical items.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 10:12 AM on March 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 10:12 AM on March 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
That dog "adjustment" is indistinguishable from my playing with my dog's feet.
posted by radicalawyer at 10:27 AM on March 9, 2017
posted by radicalawyer at 10:27 AM on March 9, 2017
The best part of bonehead's story is that the chiropractor, who forged his patient's signature on informed consent forms and later lied about it under oath, apparently did not lose his license.
posted by radicalawyer at 10:30 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by radicalawyer at 10:30 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
If someone collects cats that love to knead humans, and opens a shop where they do that on my aching middle aged back, I'll pay.
You can borrow my three cats. Comes with bonus acupuncture.
posted by AFABulous at 10:52 AM on March 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
You can borrow my three cats. Comes with bonus acupuncture.
posted by AFABulous at 10:52 AM on March 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
Comes with bonus acupuncture.
I dunno, every cat I've known is shit at it. I KNOW I have meridians in places other than my belly!
posted by gorbichov at 11:00 AM on March 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
I dunno, every cat I've known is shit at it. I KNOW I have meridians in places other than my belly!
posted by gorbichov at 11:00 AM on March 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
I've never let a chiropractor work on my neck, but the magical wizard I go to does take me from "can barely breathe, can barely even crawl around, and can't stand upright" to "breathing normally and walking upright" in one session.
posted by xedrik at 12:05 PM on March 9, 2017
posted by xedrik at 12:05 PM on March 9, 2017
I couldn't watch past the first one.
But guys.... We're only hating on chiropractics, right? I'm seeing some disturbing massage hate and I Will Fight You.
posted by greermahoney at 1:18 PM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
But guys.... We're only hating on chiropractics, right? I'm seeing some disturbing massage hate and I Will Fight You.
posted by greermahoney at 1:18 PM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
They taught me some of that neck stuff in the Army and I say it works well for all kinds of mental and physical discomfort.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 1:26 PM on March 9, 2017
posted by Mr. Yuck at 1:26 PM on March 9, 2017
I will try to explain this as it was explained to me by a physical therapist, but without the medical terminology since I don't know any. First of all, chiropractic is indeed mostly bogus but there is one small benefit from it. The "cracking" sound is actual dissolved gases in the joint fluid rapidly coming out of solution as the joint is distorted and pressure drops. Sort of like opening a bottle of champagne. Within a few minutes the gases return to solution which is why you have to wait for a period before you can pop that joint again. The coming out of solution force is actually quite powerful and stimulates special nerves around the joint. This has two effects. The first is that of a temporary analgesic that alleviates some pain. Secondly, the muscles around the joint relax making your back feel "looser". That is why you at least temporarily feel better after a chiropractic session. Save your money and have a glass of champagne instead...
posted by jim in austin at 1:36 PM on March 9, 2017
posted by jim in austin at 1:36 PM on March 9, 2017
However, the evidence is there that it's as effective in treating lower back injuries as conventional pills/PT and limited evidence that it can be effective in some patients for other, you know, spine-related problems.
No, not really. The "evidence" is extremely weak, in part because as wth acupuncture there is no consensus on what a placebo version of a bogus treatment modality would be. And we know placebo effects play a huge role in pain management especially, and that pain is subjective and not easily measured in comparable ways in clinical trial settings. The "evidence" for both chiropractic and acupuncture is weak from a metaanalytic perspective even for the modest claims its rational defenders espouse, most of which claim modest benefits for chronic pain management.
Chiropractic was exactly like homeopathy in its origins. It was based on a completely nonsensical quack theory of pathology (Palmer's "subluxation" theory) in the 19th century and managed to institutionalize its practice on the margins of scientific medicine, which was still separating itself from witchcraft and quackery (and hasn't fully yet). There is no reason to call chiropractors "doctors." Their education is in no way equivalent to that of MDs or even PTs. The pool from which (for profit) chiro colleges draw is the academic bottom of the barrel. Chiro schools emphasize the business of practice building. And the practices thy build tend to target the poor and poorly educated as clients. Some may not talk woo but they were educated in woo and con artistry. There is no biomechanical or physiological mechanism for what they claim to do, as with acupuncture, so it can't really be trialed or tested. It's woo all the way down.
Lots of woo makes some people feel better, and who's to say otherwise? It also harms people who thereby spend money and precious time and take risks pursuing unscientific treatments with a veneer of respectability (white coats! X-ray machines! He's a doctor!) when what ails them would likely better be treated by a physical therapist or a good massage.
Yes scientific medicine hurts people too. The difference is it is also proven to help people.
/my opinion, sorry to rant
posted by spitbull at 1:54 PM on March 9, 2017 [22 favorites]
No, not really. The "evidence" is extremely weak, in part because as wth acupuncture there is no consensus on what a placebo version of a bogus treatment modality would be. And we know placebo effects play a huge role in pain management especially, and that pain is subjective and not easily measured in comparable ways in clinical trial settings. The "evidence" for both chiropractic and acupuncture is weak from a metaanalytic perspective even for the modest claims its rational defenders espouse, most of which claim modest benefits for chronic pain management.
Chiropractic was exactly like homeopathy in its origins. It was based on a completely nonsensical quack theory of pathology (Palmer's "subluxation" theory) in the 19th century and managed to institutionalize its practice on the margins of scientific medicine, which was still separating itself from witchcraft and quackery (and hasn't fully yet). There is no reason to call chiropractors "doctors." Their education is in no way equivalent to that of MDs or even PTs. The pool from which (for profit) chiro colleges draw is the academic bottom of the barrel. Chiro schools emphasize the business of practice building. And the practices thy build tend to target the poor and poorly educated as clients. Some may not talk woo but they were educated in woo and con artistry. There is no biomechanical or physiological mechanism for what they claim to do, as with acupuncture, so it can't really be trialed or tested. It's woo all the way down.
Lots of woo makes some people feel better, and who's to say otherwise? It also harms people who thereby spend money and precious time and take risks pursuing unscientific treatments with a veneer of respectability (white coats! X-ray machines! He's a doctor!) when what ails them would likely better be treated by a physical therapist or a good massage.
Yes scientific medicine hurts people too. The difference is it is also proven to help people.
/my opinion, sorry to rant
posted by spitbull at 1:54 PM on March 9, 2017 [22 favorites]
Here -- the Cochrane reports is the gold standard for metanalyses of current clinical trial literature. This article is entitled "Combined chiropractic interventions for low-back pain."
Here's some summary text:
Authors' conclusions:
Combined chiropractic interventions slightly improved pain and disability in the short-term and pain in the medium-term for acute and subacute LBP. However, there is currently no evidence that supports or refutes that these interventions provide a clinically meaningful difference for pain or disability in people with LBP when compared to other interventions. Future research is very likely to change the estimate of effect and our confidence in the results.
This was based on metaanalysis of "Twelve randomised trials (including 2887 participants) assessing various combinations of chiropractic care for low-back pain [where however] ....only three of these studies were considered to have a low risk of bias."
posted by spitbull at 2:08 PM on March 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Here's some summary text:
Authors' conclusions:
Combined chiropractic interventions slightly improved pain and disability in the short-term and pain in the medium-term for acute and subacute LBP. However, there is currently no evidence that supports or refutes that these interventions provide a clinically meaningful difference for pain or disability in people with LBP when compared to other interventions. Future research is very likely to change the estimate of effect and our confidence in the results.
This was based on metaanalysis of "Twelve randomised trials (including 2887 participants) assessing various combinations of chiropractic care for low-back pain [where however] ....only three of these studies were considered to have a low risk of bias."
posted by spitbull at 2:08 PM on March 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Also note the dependence of the chiropractic business on a subscription model, much like the more woo-ish versions of psychotherapy.
posted by spitbull at 2:18 PM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by spitbull at 2:18 PM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
And i am sorry to pepper the thread but to explain the reason I feel strongly about this is that I have worked in very poor communities for about 30 years and watched people preyed upon again and again by chiropractors for work injuries and car wrecks and the things that tend to happen to manual laboring bodies.
Often the people I know who have been victimized are poorly educated and can't discern the woo under the veneer of fake doctor LARPing. They're easy marks for a white coat and a title. In one *very* rural and poor community where I work now, which is a medical ghetto with almost pathetic levels of service locally, the chiro clinic is one of the nicest buildings in town and has a huge sign reading "medical clinic" outside.
My ass.
posted by spitbull at 2:28 PM on March 9, 2017 [11 favorites]
Often the people I know who have been victimized are poorly educated and can't discern the woo under the veneer of fake doctor LARPing. They're easy marks for a white coat and a title. In one *very* rural and poor community where I work now, which is a medical ghetto with almost pathetic levels of service locally, the chiro clinic is one of the nicest buildings in town and has a huge sign reading "medical clinic" outside.
My ass.
posted by spitbull at 2:28 PM on March 9, 2017 [11 favorites]
I still giggle at this ad.
And I love my chiro - he helped me with sciatica, and with misalignment after a car accident. Great guy ( not guy in ad )
posted by seawallrunner at 2:29 PM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
And I love my chiro - he helped me with sciatica, and with misalignment after a car accident. Great guy ( not guy in ad )
posted by seawallrunner at 2:29 PM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
No, not really. The "evidence" is extremely weak, in part because as wth acupuncture there is no consensus on what a placebo version of a bogus treatment modality would be.
Sorry, I'm gonna stick with the conclusions of the Mayo Clinic and the NIH. It seems to me that the objections you raise can equally be levied at any kind of back pain treatment.
I think you may be lumping together off-the-street chiropractors and DOs, who do indeed receive the level of training of an MD.
posted by cmoj at 2:40 PM on March 9, 2017
Sorry, I'm gonna stick with the conclusions of the Mayo Clinic and the NIH. It seems to me that the objections you raise can equally be levied at any kind of back pain treatment.
I think you may be lumping together off-the-street chiropractors and DOs, who do indeed receive the level of training of an MD.
posted by cmoj at 2:40 PM on March 9, 2017
DOs are not chiropractors. That's two different things.
posted by spitbull at 2:43 PM on March 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by spitbull at 2:43 PM on March 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
Also, the problem with American sources like NIH and Mayo is that chiros have legal and economic and political power and lobbying money in the US. Cochrane is British and very conservative in its approach. If you read the NIH study closely it is really hedging its conclusions and it relies on research produced at chiropractic institutions which even NIH concedes are very low quality studies.
Anyway, I've said my bit. The best case is that it is accidentally mildly effective.
posted by spitbull at 2:49 PM on March 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Anyway, I've said my bit. The best case is that it is accidentally mildly effective.
posted by spitbull at 2:49 PM on March 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
And i am sorry to pepper the thread but to explain the reason I feel strongly about this is that I have worked in very poor communities for about 30 years and watched people preyed upon again and again by chiropractors for work injuries and car wrecks and the things that tend to happen to manual laboring bodies.
I've seen the same thing, but not for nearly as long as that. Lots of people have a story of the one good chiropractor that helped them, but until the few decent people in the profession do something to self-regulate, none of them can be trusted.
Real medical professionals have rules about things like ethical advertising and informed consent. They don't have signs that say "Chiropractor for People and Pets" or patients-turned-stroke-victims that say "nobody ever mentioned the possibility of carotid artery dissection."
posted by asperity at 2:49 PM on March 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
I've seen the same thing, but not for nearly as long as that. Lots of people have a story of the one good chiropractor that helped them, but until the few decent people in the profession do something to self-regulate, none of them can be trusted.
Real medical professionals have rules about things like ethical advertising and informed consent. They don't have signs that say "Chiropractor for People and Pets" or patients-turned-stroke-victims that say "nobody ever mentioned the possibility of carotid artery dissection."
posted by asperity at 2:49 PM on March 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
In my last bout of LBP I went to a chiro because I was unable to obtain a timely appointment with a more conventional treatment modality and because I thought I'd try something other than being oxy'ed up for the better part of a month. Dude had worked with various sports franchises, etc, and seemed not so woo and more grounded than I had expected.
The first visit was interesting and the X-Ray definitely showed a couple of vertebrae that looked akimbo. The little percussive hammer thinger didn't seem to do much but the stimulation via electrodes provided some relief. Based on that I made a follow up appointment a few days later.
The second visit was going down a similar track right up to the point where he said he wanted to try something and before it really registered, he'd cracked my neck. After finally getting back on my feet I grabbed my stuff and with a loud "fuck that" I stormed out as best I could considering the back pain coupled with the new neck pain. And that fucker still sends me a bill for the co-pay every month. And I walk it back to his office every month with another "fuck if I'm paying for that."
So I spent the rest of November and most of December doped to the gills anyway. Fuck those guys. Oxy isn't so bad after all.
posted by Fezboy! at 3:01 PM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
The first visit was interesting and the X-Ray definitely showed a couple of vertebrae that looked akimbo. The little percussive hammer thinger didn't seem to do much but the stimulation via electrodes provided some relief. Based on that I made a follow up appointment a few days later.
The second visit was going down a similar track right up to the point where he said he wanted to try something and before it really registered, he'd cracked my neck. After finally getting back on my feet I grabbed my stuff and with a loud "fuck that" I stormed out as best I could considering the back pain coupled with the new neck pain. And that fucker still sends me a bill for the co-pay every month. And I walk it back to his office every month with another "fuck if I'm paying for that."
So I spent the rest of November and most of December doped to the gills anyway. Fuck those guys. Oxy isn't so bad after all.
posted by Fezboy! at 3:01 PM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
bondcliff: magical clams have really helped with my sore mussels
ಠ_ಠ
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 3:56 PM on March 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
ಠ_ಠ
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 3:56 PM on March 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
I grew up in Spartanburg, SC, which is home to Sherman College of Chiropractic. My parents became friends with a student who needed people to practice on. For the better part of a year, we went for free adjustments and I hated it. I was in 4th or 5th grade, definitely old enough for object permanence, but I would still close my eyes really tight on the car ride over there in the hopes that the college would be gone when I opened them. I have never sought chiropractic care as an adult.
posted by danielleh at 4:35 PM on March 9, 2017
posted by danielleh at 4:35 PM on March 9, 2017
My wife and I both screamed when, in the documentary Meru, one of the climbers has his neck LOUDLY cracked less than 6 months after shattering a vertebrae. I still get the shivers thinking about it.
posted by Drab_Parts at 5:42 PM on March 9, 2017
posted by Drab_Parts at 5:42 PM on March 9, 2017
When I had back problems quite a few years ago I tried osteopathy (no measurable effect) and chiropractic (helped a bit, but nothing lasting).
I realized after a few visits that I was basically a revenue stream for the chiropractor. He would make a bit of difference but wasn't interested in telling me how I could make permanent improvements, because I might stop coming back. I was never happy with the neck-cracking stuff, which seemed theatrical and unnecessary, but luckily I didn't seem to suffer from it.
I then saw a physical therapist, who had many years experience in the NHS, who told me on my first visit that her wish, in the nicest possible way, never to see me again. Her comments about chiropractic were pretty strong, and she told me about picking up the pieces after bad treatments.
She did some manipulation, gave me a talking to about why my extra weight was helping cause problems, and sent me off with a stiff exercise regime. That sorted me out, and the exercises mean that I haven't needed to go back. Chiropractic is indeed, IMHO, on the homeopathic end of things.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 6:04 PM on March 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
I realized after a few visits that I was basically a revenue stream for the chiropractor. He would make a bit of difference but wasn't interested in telling me how I could make permanent improvements, because I might stop coming back. I was never happy with the neck-cracking stuff, which seemed theatrical and unnecessary, but luckily I didn't seem to suffer from it.
I then saw a physical therapist, who had many years experience in the NHS, who told me on my first visit that her wish, in the nicest possible way, never to see me again. Her comments about chiropractic were pretty strong, and she told me about picking up the pieces after bad treatments.
She did some manipulation, gave me a talking to about why my extra weight was helping cause problems, and sent me off with a stiff exercise regime. That sorted me out, and the exercises mean that I haven't needed to go back. Chiropractic is indeed, IMHO, on the homeopathic end of things.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 6:04 PM on March 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Why is it just "chiropractic"? It seems like it's just an adjective hanging there all by itself
Yes! It's like when Trump talks about cyber!
posted by Room 641-A at 6:25 PM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yes! It's like when Trump talks about cyber!
posted by Room 641-A at 6:25 PM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
DOs are not chiropractors. That's two different things.
Yeah the chiropractic "doctorate" is a D.C. and this is a big distinction. Osteopathy started out as something a little like chiropractic - but is separate from it and predates it - but while they still teach some odd skeletal manipulation stuff the movement has otherwise substantially merged with mainstream/evidence-based medicine. I saw a D.O. for primary care for a while who I liked a lot.
posted by atoxyl at 6:28 PM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah the chiropractic "doctorate" is a D.C. and this is a big distinction. Osteopathy started out as something a little like chiropractic - but is separate from it and predates it - but while they still teach some odd skeletal manipulation stuff the movement has otherwise substantially merged with mainstream/evidence-based medicine. I saw a D.O. for primary care for a while who I liked a lot.
posted by atoxyl at 6:28 PM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
More anecdata: Chiropractics fixed my lower back pain that was sometimes debilitating. Over the years it would come back, I would head back to the chiro. Rinse repeat for 10 years. My last chiro told me to get Rolfed. Fifteen years later, no return of back pain. I was in so much pain I couldn't sleep and working at my desk was impossible. I felt at the time like it had saved my life.
posted by Belle O'Cosity at 6:50 PM on March 9, 2017
posted by Belle O'Cosity at 6:50 PM on March 9, 2017
but while they still teach some odd skeletal manipulation stuff the movement has otherwise substantially merged with mainstream/evidence-based medicine. I saw a D.O. for primary care for a while who I liked a lot.
One of my moms doctors at Kaiser is a DO, and Kaiser is pretty conservative.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:20 PM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
One of my moms doctors at Kaiser is a DO, and Kaiser is pretty conservative.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:20 PM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
I couldn't raise both arms together over my head without extreme numbness. One session with a chiro, problem fixed.
posted by serena15221 at 7:33 PM on March 9, 2017
posted by serena15221 at 7:33 PM on March 9, 2017
I know a couple who got divorced over chiropraxy. The wife wanted to treat the baby's ear infection with her chiropractor, who was one of the ones who think "luxations" are to blame for All The Things. The husband read up on it and, horrified, refused. She took the baby to the chiropractor behind his back, and then refused vaccinations on the chiro's advice. They ended up divorcing over it. In the end, she was given equal physical custody but the court disallowed her from making any medical decisions for the child. She still complains bitterly and in torrents, some six years later, that her ex-husband is keeping their child from good health AND is insisting on poisoning the kid with vaccines. SO GREAT. I've literally heard the kid complain, "I have an ear infection but mommy say I can't have it cured; I have to take poison-drugs instead."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:36 PM on March 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:36 PM on March 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Mrs. W.'s cousin is a DO and is indistinguishable from an MD is his beliefs and practice. I don't think he uses the manipulation stuff.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:36 PM on March 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:36 PM on March 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
Relying on anecdotal self-reported claims to oppose scientific literature is the very essence of confirmation bias.
Most human inflammatory ailments get better with time. Therefore anything we do tends to "work" over time on minor discomforts and pain. People have been swearing by magical cures since the first witch cured the first possessed person. And I'm sure all involved were convinced that a demon was exorcised by a magical incantation. Shit, people still fall for that one.
The essence of a good con is selling something people want to believe in, that is likely not to produce cognitive dissonance. A customer who doesn't know s/he's been conned comes back again and again. Which is why this was exactly what your chiropractor was trained to do in practice development classes at their for profit schools: keep you coming back for "adjustments."
Anyone with serious knowledge of basic science and medicine can look at chiropractic exactly like they look at homeopathy. Whatever "results" it gets are not testable or replicable or comparable in any serious way became they are either purely subjective and/or statistically likely to occur with placebo treatment.
Chiro is placebo medicine. If it didn't pretend to be science and gain all of its authority from that pretense, it would be no different from Reiki or reflexology or ear candling.
No disease has ever been cured by a chiropractor. No one has ever shown any causal reltionahip between spinal health and the rest of one's general health. Spines aren't "aligned" like a car's camber and caster. Massage and parasympathetic nervous stimulation make us feel better no matter who is doing the touching. Touch reduces pain and anxiety. It's a real thing. But the idea that there is some scientific discipline behind the ways and places chiropractors touch their patients that differs from a weird form of massage or exercise stimulation any PT learns is simply nonsense.
Your chiropractor doesn't need x-rays. They don't know how to read x-rays in fact. That's all for show. They will do the exact same bullshit maneuvers on you without the x-rays.
There is a ton of literature on the subject. This sub annoy aboht MDs afraid of competition. It's about quacks who call themselves doctors and prey on ignorance with pseudoscientific argle bargle and none of the risks or burdens or realities faced by real doctors.
It's play medicine. That's all it is. For profit.
posted by spitbull at 9:26 PM on March 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
Most human inflammatory ailments get better with time. Therefore anything we do tends to "work" over time on minor discomforts and pain. People have been swearing by magical cures since the first witch cured the first possessed person. And I'm sure all involved were convinced that a demon was exorcised by a magical incantation. Shit, people still fall for that one.
The essence of a good con is selling something people want to believe in, that is likely not to produce cognitive dissonance. A customer who doesn't know s/he's been conned comes back again and again. Which is why this was exactly what your chiropractor was trained to do in practice development classes at their for profit schools: keep you coming back for "adjustments."
Anyone with serious knowledge of basic science and medicine can look at chiropractic exactly like they look at homeopathy. Whatever "results" it gets are not testable or replicable or comparable in any serious way became they are either purely subjective and/or statistically likely to occur with placebo treatment.
Chiro is placebo medicine. If it didn't pretend to be science and gain all of its authority from that pretense, it would be no different from Reiki or reflexology or ear candling.
No disease has ever been cured by a chiropractor. No one has ever shown any causal reltionahip between spinal health and the rest of one's general health. Spines aren't "aligned" like a car's camber and caster. Massage and parasympathetic nervous stimulation make us feel better no matter who is doing the touching. Touch reduces pain and anxiety. It's a real thing. But the idea that there is some scientific discipline behind the ways and places chiropractors touch their patients that differs from a weird form of massage or exercise stimulation any PT learns is simply nonsense.
Your chiropractor doesn't need x-rays. They don't know how to read x-rays in fact. That's all for show. They will do the exact same bullshit maneuvers on you without the x-rays.
There is a ton of literature on the subject. This sub annoy aboht MDs afraid of competition. It's about quacks who call themselves doctors and prey on ignorance with pseudoscientific argle bargle and none of the risks or burdens or realities faced by real doctors.
It's play medicine. That's all it is. For profit.
posted by spitbull at 9:26 PM on March 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
Sorry I garbled last paragraph and didn't see til after edit. The second sentence was "This is not about MDs afraid of competition..."
posted by spitbull at 9:33 PM on March 9, 2017
posted by spitbull at 9:33 PM on March 9, 2017
DOs, by the way, differ from chiropractors in that when the underlying scientific theory of their original practice (which like many 19th century quackeries sought a single simple cause for all forms of morbidity) was proved to be pseudoscientific nonsense, they admitted it, kept the name and ditched most of the theory, and calibrated their training with MD education in such a way that the average DO certainly can be trusted to recognize that a knot on your shoulder or a shadow on your x-ray might be a tumor and not an excuse to bill for six more sessions.
Much of 19th century quackery located all health in the bowels too, a paradigm stil very much with us in the aisles at Whole Foods.
posted by spitbull at 9:39 PM on March 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Much of 19th century quackery located all health in the bowels too, a paradigm stil very much with us in the aisles at Whole Foods.
posted by spitbull at 9:39 PM on March 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
My mom dragged me to one for some reason I forget now when I was about 17. He took x-rays, I GUESS, and then proceeded to point at various places to show me how things were out of whack. I was there against my will, and I told him, "Dude. I am not a doctor and I cannot read x-rays, so you are wasting your time pointing at this and that, IF these are indeed actually MY x-rays in the first place." And I stood up and left, unmolested. I think he was glad to see the back of me. Heh.
posted by thebrokedown at 9:57 PM on March 9, 2017
posted by thebrokedown at 9:57 PM on March 9, 2017
I'm fine with "theatrical placebo" in a broad sense. The costs and risks are where the choices need to be made, and chiro and accupuncture fail on that count. Massage is a pretty low risk placebo treatment (and we need touch anyway), and less likely to make your pain worse. Even the studies done on the efficacy of PT show that it doesn't really perform any better than natural healing. A good PT, who is up on modern pain science, will be more akin to a psychologist - they'll help you feel safe with moving again, motivate you to move again, show you how to move again, show you how to teach your brain to be comfortable with movement again. That's where science has led us - movement interacts with the nervous system, and the nervous system is what dictates movement, pain, muscle tone, posture. Science has already passed the biomechanical model of pain and movement by, but unfortunately it will be with us for many, many, many years to come - not just in awful and embarrassing practices like chiro, but mainstream medicine too.
posted by MillMan at 10:50 PM on March 9, 2017
posted by MillMan at 10:50 PM on March 9, 2017
Even the studies done on the efficacy of PT show that it doesn't really perform any better than natural healing
Cite? PT isn't for pain management, it's for helping to regain use of an injured body part.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 12:35 PM on March 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
Cite? PT isn't for pain management, it's for helping to regain use of an injured body part.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 12:35 PM on March 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
Cat massages are still okay, though, right?
It's time for cat massage!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 5:08 PM on March 10, 2017
It's time for cat massage!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 5:08 PM on March 10, 2017
My wife tells a "true" story, somewhat apocryphal story mind you as she has forgotten the details of it, about a male chiropractor who became a midwife solely so that he could adjust his child's back as soon as it is out of mama. Unbelievable but we do have a lot of weirdo chiropractors in these parts including the ones who think back adjustments can cure the flu (& etc.) so there may be a degree of truth to it.
posted by Ashwagandha at 5:22 PM on March 10, 2017
posted by Ashwagandha at 5:22 PM on March 10, 2017
What I just realized about my mom's Kaiser DO is that he is actually her back doctor. He has treated her for years in such a straightforward fashion I always assumed he was an MD until I noticed it on his name tag.
posted by Room 641-A at 5:26 PM on March 10, 2017
posted by Room 641-A at 5:26 PM on March 10, 2017
The distinction "DO" means very little anymore except that your doc wasn't smart enough to get into a better medical school.
Your D.C. likely didn't have the grades to get into physical therapy school. The hidden secret of chiropractic is that there are far more "doctors" anymore than sucker patients or willing insurance companies. Chiropractic colleges are *for profit,* unlike any medical school in the US. They need more suckers to stay in business. So they take ANYONE who signs up. You too can be a "doctor" of chiropractic. It takes three or so years and you will learn almost no actual science, but a whole lot about how to build a profitable practice.
It's just true. Your car mechanic is likely better educated in her craft than your chiropractor. The white coat and the x-ray is all for show.
posted by spitbull at 3:54 AM on March 11, 2017
Your D.C. likely didn't have the grades to get into physical therapy school. The hidden secret of chiropractic is that there are far more "doctors" anymore than sucker patients or willing insurance companies. Chiropractic colleges are *for profit,* unlike any medical school in the US. They need more suckers to stay in business. So they take ANYONE who signs up. You too can be a "doctor" of chiropractic. It takes three or so years and you will learn almost no actual science, but a whole lot about how to build a profitable practice.
It's just true. Your car mechanic is likely better educated in her craft than your chiropractor. The white coat and the x-ray is all for show.
posted by spitbull at 3:54 AM on March 11, 2017
An epidemiological examination of the subluxation construct using Hill's criteria of causation.
Timothy A Mirtz, Lon Morgan, Lawrence H Wyatt and Leon Greene
Chiropractic and Osteopathy 17:13 2009
"There is a significant lack of evidence in the literature to fulfill Hill’s criteria of causation as regards chiropractic subluxation. No supportive evidence is found for the chiropractic subluxation being associated with any disease process or of creating suboptimal health conditions requiring intervention. Regardless of popular appeal this leaves the subluxation construct in the realm of unsupported speculation. This lack of supportive evidence suggests the subluxation construct has no valid clinical applicability. "
This was written by chiropractors and published in a chiro journal. They admit their theory is pure D bullshit.
posted by spitbull at 4:09 AM on March 11, 2017
Timothy A Mirtz, Lon Morgan, Lawrence H Wyatt and Leon Greene
Chiropractic and Osteopathy 17:13 2009
"There is a significant lack of evidence in the literature to fulfill Hill’s criteria of causation as regards chiropractic subluxation. No supportive evidence is found for the chiropractic subluxation being associated with any disease process or of creating suboptimal health conditions requiring intervention. Regardless of popular appeal this leaves the subluxation construct in the realm of unsupported speculation. This lack of supportive evidence suggests the subluxation construct has no valid clinical applicability. "
This was written by chiropractors and published in a chiro journal. They admit their theory is pure D bullshit.
posted by spitbull at 4:09 AM on March 11, 2017
Correction, it takes four years of chiro College, not 3 as I said above. You can get into the best ones with 8 basic science courses and a 3.0 GPA. They'll be glad to take your money ($150k or so) so you can make $40-60k a year chasing ambulances. And call yourself "doctor" at PTA meetings.
It's as if all law schools were Tier 3 and lower.
posted by spitbull at 4:23 AM on March 11, 2017
It's as if all law schools were Tier 3 and lower.
posted by spitbull at 4:23 AM on March 11, 2017
The costs and risks are where the choices need to be made, and chiro and accupuncture fail on that count.
Chiropractic "neck adjustments" have caused a number of deaths and debilitating injuries. I and others have linked to examples earlier in this thread. Placebos stop being a relatively harmless waste of money when they have a death toll or result in permanent debilitation. It should be outlawed, frankly. I'm a bit of an absolutist when quackery crosses the line from foolish to deadly.
posted by bonehead at 8:49 AM on March 11, 2017
Chiropractic "neck adjustments" have caused a number of deaths and debilitating injuries. I and others have linked to examples earlier in this thread. Placebos stop being a relatively harmless waste of money when they have a death toll or result in permanent debilitation. It should be outlawed, frankly. I'm a bit of an absolutist when quackery crosses the line from foolish to deadly.
posted by bonehead at 8:49 AM on March 11, 2017
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posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:43 AM on March 9, 2017 [9 favorites]