'and the street lights dance in your eyes'
March 24, 2017 3:21 AM Subscribe
In many towns and cities the familiar orange glow of HPS Sodium street-lighting has given way, or is giving way, to the cooler white glare of LED illumination, giving cost and energy-efficiency savings, and improving nocturnal colour rendition. Many welcome the change: Hal Espen, writing in 2011 for The Atlantic lamented the prevalence of the ‘jaundiced weirdness’ of sodium lighting and looked forward to its obsolescence. But others are unhappy: LED Streetlights Are Giving Neighborhoods the Blues reckons Jeff Hecht at IEEE Spectrum; some complain that ‘LED street lights are disturbing my sleep’ as Brian Wheeler reports for the BBC; research at the University of Exeter suggests LED lighting could have major impact on wildlife; and astronomers, among others, are concerned about the possible effects on the night sky — LEDs: Light Pollution Solution or Night Sky Nemesis? ponders Bob King at Universe Today. Lux Review (‘Your independent guide to lighting’) asks: Will tunable street light breakthrough silence LED critics?, while, at the same site, we learn of a Bird-friendly LED island in the Netherlands.
Previously at MeFi. A history of street lighting in the United States (Wikipedia). Title reference.
Previously at MeFi. A history of street lighting in the United States (Wikipedia). Title reference.
I still remember how weird it was when I moved to Chicago in the late seventies and those sodium lamps were everywhere, making everything orange at night. Naturally, I'm nostalgic for it now.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:32 AM on March 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:32 AM on March 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
Whoo boy, that remotely tunable color temperature boondoggle. They're partnering with IBM Watson Internet of Things to add "weather enabled cognitive capability". Because y'know, they can't just hire someone whose job it is to dim and brighten the lights. Run screaming from these folks, city managers.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:57 AM on March 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:57 AM on March 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
Halloween Jack -- Same here. I started as a freshman at Northwestern in 1981 and came from Maine, where the streetlights were still incandescents at the time (probably still are, for all I know). The purple-orange sky at night is one of my most vivid memories of that time.
posted by briank at 4:59 AM on March 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by briank at 4:59 AM on March 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
Though they've begun replacing the orange sodium lights here in Chicago, for example along Lake Shore Drive, most of the city retains the orange glow.
I would like to see some stars at night but the orange sky feels like home at this point, I'm sure I'll miss it when it goes. It never really gets dark here and everything is almost monochrome at night.
posted by mai at 5:32 AM on March 24, 2017
I would like to see some stars at night but the orange sky feels like home at this point, I'm sure I'll miss it when it goes. It never really gets dark here and everything is almost monochrome at night.
posted by mai at 5:32 AM on March 24, 2017
Is the colour spectrum the problem or the fact that LED lights are cheap enough to run constantly? The link about affecting wildlife isn't clear. Based in the abstract, the study doesn't seem to have compared LEDs against either incandescent or sodium lights, having started from an "artificial lighting naive" grassland environment. Rather, it tested mitigation strategies and identified one that would be a pretty good candidate.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:38 AM on March 24, 2017
posted by tobascodagama at 5:38 AM on March 24, 2017
To rephrase my question above: Is the colour spectrum of LEDs versus other lights a problem, or just the fact that they can be run constantly? Because the spectrum of LEDs is adjustable, where the spectrum of sodium lights (for instance) is not.
Basically, is there something specific to LEDs that is a problem, or is this a "WiFi causes cancer" situation where people are grumpy about something new even though they've been exposed to similar RF signals their whole lives with no issues?
posted by tobascodagama at 5:40 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Basically, is there something specific to LEDs that is a problem, or is this a "WiFi causes cancer" situation where people are grumpy about something new even though they've been exposed to similar RF signals their whole lives with no issues?
posted by tobascodagama at 5:40 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
My totally unqualified hot take on this is that the blue content in the LED lights negatively impacts circadian rhythms in a way that the orange lights did not. Source: the godawful combo doorbell/nightlight that my landlord installed which requires obstruction (via a SodaStream) in order for me to get to sleep when insomnia drives me to the living room couch.
posted by grumpybear69 at 5:48 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 5:48 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
To rephrase my question above: Is the colour spectrum of LEDs versus other lights a problem, or just the fact that they can be run constantly? Because the spectrum of LEDs is adjustable, where the spectrum of sodium lights (for instance) is not.
Basically, is there something specific to LEDs that is a problem, or is this a "WiFi causes cancer" situation where people are grumpy about something new even though they've been exposed to similar RF signals their whole lives with no issues?
You are correct. The spectrum of the LEDs that are being used is shifted heavily to the blue spectrum, which is thought to disrupt sleep patterns because it's so similar to sunlight. There's an easy fix, which is to use LEDs with a warmer color temperature. That would require some thought and not just farming out the project to the lowest bidder.
I live in Chicago and have always disliked the orange glow, but that's a matter of taste. With the streetlights out front and the crime buster bulbs the city puts in the alley, my apartment is like living inside a jack-o-lantern at night when the lights are off.
The rhetoric on this issue in Chicago is getting overheated to the point that LEDs are being blamed for every ill known to mankind, and people are even suspicious of the warmer bulbs since "LEDs bad" is becoming received wisdom. What cracks me up is that people are now hanging onto their precious CFLs because those are "safer".
What I despise is the blue power on LED that's become ubiquitous on appliances. The air filter I had to get for my bedroom came with a gigantic bright blue LED power light on top. The manufacturer finally changed the design and now they come with a red power LED.
posted by lagomorphius at 5:51 AM on March 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
Basically, is there something specific to LEDs that is a problem, or is this a "WiFi causes cancer" situation where people are grumpy about something new even though they've been exposed to similar RF signals their whole lives with no issues?
You are correct. The spectrum of the LEDs that are being used is shifted heavily to the blue spectrum, which is thought to disrupt sleep patterns because it's so similar to sunlight. There's an easy fix, which is to use LEDs with a warmer color temperature. That would require some thought and not just farming out the project to the lowest bidder.
I live in Chicago and have always disliked the orange glow, but that's a matter of taste. With the streetlights out front and the crime buster bulbs the city puts in the alley, my apartment is like living inside a jack-o-lantern at night when the lights are off.
The rhetoric on this issue in Chicago is getting overheated to the point that LEDs are being blamed for every ill known to mankind, and people are even suspicious of the warmer bulbs since "LEDs bad" is becoming received wisdom. What cracks me up is that people are now hanging onto their precious CFLs because those are "safer".
What I despise is the blue power on LED that's become ubiquitous on appliances. The air filter I had to get for my bedroom came with a gigantic bright blue LED power light on top. The manufacturer finally changed the design and now they come with a red power LED.
posted by lagomorphius at 5:51 AM on March 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
I hate those lights! I live in Savannah and in the downtown historic area they haven't installed the bright white horrors they've"upgraded" to everywhere else. So the people who can afford to live in the most expensive area get spared this assault on their senses but the rest of us have to live with it. When we lost power from Hurricane Matthew it was really great being able to see the stars every night. Unfortunately, we also lost some trees that kept that harsh bright light from totally invading the house.
posted by mareli at 6:08 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by mareli at 6:08 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
There is a city worker changing out the sodium lights for LEDs in front of my house as I type this. I am not looking forward to the change. I prefer the dimmer orange-yellow glow of the sodium lamps to the glare of LEDs. Does this also mean an end to street lamps mysteriously turning off as you walk under them? My understanding is that is due to sodium lights overheating or something and cutting out temporarily.
posted by fimbulvetr at 6:13 AM on March 24, 2017
posted by fimbulvetr at 6:13 AM on March 24, 2017
Sodium lights look better from airplanes.
posted by kevinbelt at 6:19 AM on March 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 6:19 AM on March 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Does this also mean an end to street lamps mysteriously turning off as you walk under them?
If they're buying LEDs from the cheapest supplier, you can expect all sorts of things to mysteriously happen as you walk under them.
posted by effbot at 6:21 AM on March 24, 2017
If they're buying LEDs from the cheapest supplier, you can expect all sorts of things to mysteriously happen as you walk under them.
posted by effbot at 6:21 AM on March 24, 2017
Well, at least it looks like they are installing 3000k warm light, full cut-off lights here in Ottawa. I guess I will find out tonight what the difference is like.
posted by fimbulvetr at 6:24 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by fimbulvetr at 6:24 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Good riddance. I still miss the nighttime hue of my childhood with mercury vapor street lamps. LEDs are way closer than sodium ever was. Sodium vapor lights always make my brain twitch. The color is just wrong.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 6:35 AM on March 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 6:35 AM on March 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
I wonder how much of this can be ameliorated by some kind of directed shielding that keeps a streetlight's light on the street and blocks it from upward or unnecessarily outward spreading.
posted by kokaku at 6:38 AM on March 24, 2017
posted by kokaku at 6:38 AM on March 24, 2017
The dark-sky park near me has a parking lot lit by motion-sensitive, color-temperature-changing LED lamps. They make a dim reddish glow most of the time, they brighten and whiten in the presence of motion.
While they're pretty new, they're not brand new, it's been a few years. I don't think you need a ton of "new technology," networking, or software to handle this stuff pretty well.
But a system of software-bound, networked street lights may involve a lucrative service contract for someone, so obviously we should do it that way.
posted by Western Infidels at 6:41 AM on March 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
While they're pretty new, they're not brand new, it's been a few years. I don't think you need a ton of "new technology," networking, or software to handle this stuff pretty well.
But a system of software-bound, networked street lights may involve a lucrative service contract for someone, so obviously we should do it that way.
posted by Western Infidels at 6:41 AM on March 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
The real problem is that we're still treating streetlamps as spotlights for motoring lanes. We need to return to more gentle diffusive lighting at pedestrian level, and then maybe we won't need to keep using harsh stadium-style flood lamps.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 6:41 AM on March 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 6:41 AM on March 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
My town has LED streetlights and I love them. That horrible orange glow from the old sodium lights would penetrate all but the thickest blinds in my old apartment and the terrible fixture design let too much light leak from the sides. I look forward to the day when the overcast skies of home aren't tainted orange by that horrible light and our cities glow like the moon instead.
Yes, they have a slightly blue cast. Yes, the shadows look odd because the light is coming from multiple point sources on each fixture. But it's not like the orange light was better for visibility and I find the LEDs to have better coverage for less total light intensity.
People will always complain about change, but energy efficiency and a visible reduction in light pollution (from my perspective) are worth it.
posted by Lighthammer at 6:47 AM on March 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yes, they have a slightly blue cast. Yes, the shadows look odd because the light is coming from multiple point sources on each fixture. But it's not like the orange light was better for visibility and I find the LEDs to have better coverage for less total light intensity.
People will always complain about change, but energy efficiency and a visible reduction in light pollution (from my perspective) are worth it.
posted by Lighthammer at 6:47 AM on March 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
the American Medical Association has come out on this
"emphasizing that it is the short wavelength illumination that we have come to know as "eco-friendly illumination" that is causing the most harm (primarily LED lighting)."
and it's the bright blue-green emission — below 500nm — peak in the "white" LEDs that coincides with the sensitivity peak:
High Sensitivity of Human Melatonin, Alertness, Thermoregulation …
by C Cajochen – 2005 – Cited by 189
Nonclassical ocular photoreceptors with peak sensitivity around 460 nm have been found to regulate circadian rhythm function as measured by melatonin …
Right at the peak emission for "white" LEDs:
posted by hank at 7:02 AM on March 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
"emphasizing that it is the short wavelength illumination that we have come to know as "eco-friendly illumination" that is causing the most harm (primarily LED lighting)."
and it's the bright blue-green emission — below 500nm — peak in the "white" LEDs that coincides with the sensitivity peak:
High Sensitivity of Human Melatonin, Alertness, Thermoregulation …
by C Cajochen – 2005 – Cited by 189
Nonclassical ocular photoreceptors with peak sensitivity around 460 nm have been found to regulate circadian rhythm function as measured by melatonin …
Right at the peak emission for "white" LEDs:
posted by hank at 7:02 AM on March 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
PS, some science on the subject worth reading:
PowerPoint slides for the information published in this article:
Jul 5, 2013 – Evaluating Potential Spectral Impacts of Various Artificial Lights on Melatonin Suppression, Photosynthesis, and Star Visibility ….. The impact of artificial light on photosynthesis, on star visibility and on melatonin suppression
That's a very detailed study. There is one new LED out with a clean emission spectrum — Phillips "REBEL" amber, driven by a phosphor but not emitting in the blue band according to their charts.
It took the American Medical Association 40 years to warn people about the 15-30x increased risk of cancer from tobacco; it only took 10 years to warn people about artificial white nighttime lighting associated with the 5x increase in breast cancer.
posted by hank at 7:06 AM on March 24, 2017
PowerPoint slides for the information published in this article:
Jul 5, 2013 – Evaluating Potential Spectral Impacts of Various Artificial Lights on Melatonin Suppression, Photosynthesis, and Star Visibility ….. The impact of artificial light on photosynthesis, on star visibility and on melatonin suppression
That's a very detailed study. There is one new LED out with a clean emission spectrum — Phillips "REBEL" amber, driven by a phosphor but not emitting in the blue band according to their charts.
It took the American Medical Association 40 years to warn people about the 15-30x increased risk of cancer from tobacco; it only took 10 years to warn people about artificial white nighttime lighting associated with the 5x increase in breast cancer.
posted by hank at 7:06 AM on March 24, 2017
I learn more about The Netherlands on metafilter than living in the actual Netherlands.
posted by ouke at 7:09 AM on March 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by ouke at 7:09 AM on March 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
"We need to return to more gentle diffusive lighting at pedestrian level, and then maybe we won't need to keep using harsh stadium-style flood lamps."
Good idea in theory, but the suburb I live in has done this, and everyone just drives with their high beams on now. It's pretty horrible.
posted by kevinbelt at 7:15 AM on March 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Good idea in theory, but the suburb I live in has done this, and everyone just drives with their high beams on now. It's pretty horrible.
posted by kevinbelt at 7:15 AM on March 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm glad they're working on ways to make the LED lights less harsh. If my eye happens to wander too close to the source of light, I'm buying it for several minutes, and they tend to be a headache trigger in general for me. I forwarded old fashioned light bulbs for use in the home because of the headache factor, so I hope the technology continues to develop on that front, too.
The last time I was at an amusement park after dark, I remember a lot of people were wearing these blinking LED lights on lanyards around their necks. Any time I had to walk against traffic flow, I'd have to keep my eyes firmly fixed on the ground to avoid blinding. I was up all that night with a throbbing head.
I don't want to waste energy, but until I can swap out my peepers for a more efficient set I'm kind of stuck.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:47 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
The last time I was at an amusement park after dark, I remember a lot of people were wearing these blinking LED lights on lanyards around their necks. Any time I had to walk against traffic flow, I'd have to keep my eyes firmly fixed on the ground to avoid blinding. I was up all that night with a throbbing head.
I don't want to waste energy, but until I can swap out my peepers for a more efficient set I'm kind of stuck.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:47 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
> Source: the godawful combo doorbell/nightlight that my landlord installed which requires obstruction (via a SodaStream) in order for me to get to sleep when insomnia drives me to the living room couch.
> What I despise is the blue power on LED that's become ubiquitous on appliances. The air filter I had to get for my bedroom came with a gigantic bright blue LED power light on top. The manufacturer finally changed the design and now they come with a red power LED.
My stupid cable modem! It has to be in the living room and even putting electrical tape over the LEDs just means that it leaks out of all the vent grates, painting the dark room with vertical lines of blue, flashing light. I could probably improvise something out of thin cardboard to just put over it but damn.
posted by indubitable at 8:30 AM on March 24, 2017
> What I despise is the blue power on LED that's become ubiquitous on appliances. The air filter I had to get for my bedroom came with a gigantic bright blue LED power light on top. The manufacturer finally changed the design and now they come with a red power LED.
My stupid cable modem! It has to be in the living room and even putting electrical tape over the LEDs just means that it leaks out of all the vent grates, painting the dark room with vertical lines of blue, flashing light. I could probably improvise something out of thin cardboard to just put over it but damn.
posted by indubitable at 8:30 AM on March 24, 2017
In my opinion, it's simultaneously true that the orange sodium lights are terrible, and that the some of the new LEDs aren't great. However, the thing I hate about the sodium lights (the color) is fundamental to the technology, and the stuff I dislike about the LEDs is implementation-specific, so I have at least some hope for improvements before the next huge technology shift.
And yes, the blue power LEDs on home electronics are the root of all evil.
posted by primethyme at 8:32 AM on March 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
And yes, the blue power LEDs on home electronics are the root of all evil.
posted by primethyme at 8:32 AM on March 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
kokaku: I wonder how much of this can be ameliorated by some kind of directed shielding that keeps a streetlight's light on the street and blocks it from upward or unnecessarily outward spreading.
That only addresses the spread of light, not the color. In fact, light shielding is a pretty common requirement in places that have stricter design standards for commercial and residential development, and that's before the prevalence of LED bulbs, or even CFLs for that matter.
Anyway, I miss arc lights. And by miss, I mean I'm glad we don't have artificial moons lighting entire towns.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:34 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
That only addresses the spread of light, not the color. In fact, light shielding is a pretty common requirement in places that have stricter design standards for commercial and residential development, and that's before the prevalence of LED bulbs, or even CFLs for that matter.
Anyway, I miss arc lights. And by miss, I mean I'm glad we don't have artificial moons lighting entire towns.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:34 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
the blue power LEDs on home electronics are the root of all evil.
We bought a cable modem to avoid paying monthly rental from our ISP. Great! Except now an entire room glows blue at night, thanks to the blue LEDs on the new modem. I'll have to make a small box for the modem to shield it when anyone wants to sleep in that room, or just tape over the lights.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:36 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
We bought a cable modem to avoid paying monthly rental from our ISP. Great! Except now an entire room glows blue at night, thanks to the blue LEDs on the new modem. I'll have to make a small box for the modem to shield it when anyone wants to sleep in that room, or just tape over the lights.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:36 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
My town has started replacing the old-style yellow/orange streetlights with LEDs.
Last year, they replaced the one outside my house,and it is pretty awful.
The light it casts is harsh and unpleasant.
The city, of course, will tell you that in absolute value (lumens, presumably), the new lights put out less light and have reduced glare.
Which is likely true under testing conditions. But I think focusing on pure numbers ignores that the human eye reacts to different lights sources in varying ways.
Pinpoint light sources, especially pure white, draw the eye and cast shadow in a way that is hard to see on lab instruments but immediately obvious in the real world.
On the other hand, the new streetlight is definitely more focused and directional than the old.
The old one cast enough light into my living room to read by, the new one necessitates turning on a light to find my keys.
This years Halloween display was much creepier, as the front walk is no longer illuminated.
Also, I have noticed that the new LED lamps are much smarter about turning off when it is grey/overcast but not still dark.
Even driving to school today at 8am on a typical NW grey morning, all of the old style lamps are still lit, while the new ones have been off for an hour.
If the goal is energy-savings, the new LEDs are a definite win.
I'd rather they just removed the light in front of my house entirely, and said as much to the city when they replaced it.
The streetlights on my street are mostly decorative, the one by my house illuminates my mailbox which is handy when trying to read the Pennysaver but in general, it serves little purpose.
My town does have a "dark sky" ordinance, but naturally they exempted streetlights when it was written, so we don't even have that to fall back on.
posted by madajb at 8:54 AM on March 24, 2017
Last year, they replaced the one outside my house,and it is pretty awful.
The light it casts is harsh and unpleasant.
The city, of course, will tell you that in absolute value (lumens, presumably), the new lights put out less light and have reduced glare.
Which is likely true under testing conditions. But I think focusing on pure numbers ignores that the human eye reacts to different lights sources in varying ways.
Pinpoint light sources, especially pure white, draw the eye and cast shadow in a way that is hard to see on lab instruments but immediately obvious in the real world.
On the other hand, the new streetlight is definitely more focused and directional than the old.
The old one cast enough light into my living room to read by, the new one necessitates turning on a light to find my keys.
This years Halloween display was much creepier, as the front walk is no longer illuminated.
Also, I have noticed that the new LED lamps are much smarter about turning off when it is grey/overcast but not still dark.
Even driving to school today at 8am on a typical NW grey morning, all of the old style lamps are still lit, while the new ones have been off for an hour.
If the goal is energy-savings, the new LEDs are a definite win.
I'd rather they just removed the light in front of my house entirely, and said as much to the city when they replaced it.
The streetlights on my street are mostly decorative, the one by my house illuminates my mailbox which is handy when trying to read the Pennysaver but in general, it serves little purpose.
My town does have a "dark sky" ordinance, but naturally they exempted streetlights when it was written, so we don't even have that to fall back on.
posted by madajb at 8:54 AM on March 24, 2017
>I wonder how much of this can be ameliorated by some kind of directed shielding that keeps a streetlight's light on the street and blocks it from upward or unnecessarily outward spreading.
These rolled out a couple years ago in my neighborhood in Brooklyn and they hadn’t quite figured out how to shade them from residents’ windows yet. The newer ones do have a sort of screen to keep so much light leaking out the side. Where I am it’s pretty rough, especially in winter when they shine like a damn x-ray through the bare trees.
Sidenote: In Scott Kelly's NYC-at-night-from-space picture from 2015 you can see exactly where they started rolling it out! In this image, if you look up from the southern tip of Manhattan, there are two dark areas in the bit of Brooklyn that’s visible: Prospect Park on the left and Greenwood Cemetery on the right. The bluish area surrounding the cemetery is where they started installing LEDs (Kensington, Windsor Terrace, Sunset Park, etc.), and you can see exactly where they hadn’t changed them yet. (On the Jersey side of the Hudson, south of the GWB, there’s another area using LEDs too, it looks like--Cliffside Park? Edgewater?)
posted by miles per flower at 8:58 AM on March 24, 2017
These rolled out a couple years ago in my neighborhood in Brooklyn and they hadn’t quite figured out how to shade them from residents’ windows yet. The newer ones do have a sort of screen to keep so much light leaking out the side. Where I am it’s pretty rough, especially in winter when they shine like a damn x-ray through the bare trees.
Sidenote: In Scott Kelly's NYC-at-night-from-space picture from 2015 you can see exactly where they started rolling it out! In this image, if you look up from the southern tip of Manhattan, there are two dark areas in the bit of Brooklyn that’s visible: Prospect Park on the left and Greenwood Cemetery on the right. The bluish area surrounding the cemetery is where they started installing LEDs (Kensington, Windsor Terrace, Sunset Park, etc.), and you can see exactly where they hadn’t changed them yet. (On the Jersey side of the Hudson, south of the GWB, there’s another area using LEDs too, it looks like--Cliffside Park? Edgewater?)
posted by miles per flower at 8:58 AM on March 24, 2017
I vividly remember a snowy night in the '70s, when streetlights were pretty much all mercury-vapor, driving through the center of Lunenburg, MA. They had just switched to sodium lamps, and it looked like some kind of horror movie. The streetlight in front of my house was changed to LED a couple of years ago, and I like it a lot more than the blinking sodium thing that was there before.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:16 AM on March 24, 2017
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:16 AM on March 24, 2017
Let's not forget the Austin moontowers...
posted by jim in austin at 9:24 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by jim in austin at 9:24 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
filthy light thief, I had the same problem with the cable modem and box - I ended up taping a red filter (I have a book of "swatches" from LEE Filters that I got from my local camera store) over the channel numbers and that dims the color and brightness to where it's not as noticeable. Other annoying lights I get out the gaffer tape (also works great as a "crawl blocker" on the bottom of the screen).
posted by plasticpalacealice at 9:26 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by plasticpalacealice at 9:26 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
the thing I hate about the sodium lights (the color) is fundamental to the technology, and the stuff I dislike about the LEDs is implementation-specific
A white LED is a blue LED with a phosphor that absorbs some of the light and emits yellow light, so the blueness is kind of inherent to the technology. But the tech is improving, and you can get LEDs now with very "natural" color rendering (i.e. near daylight). Sodium lights is about as bad in that respect as it can get.
posted by effbot at 9:39 AM on March 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
A white LED is a blue LED with a phosphor that absorbs some of the light and emits yellow light, so the blueness is kind of inherent to the technology. But the tech is improving, and you can get LEDs now with very "natural" color rendering (i.e. near daylight). Sodium lights is about as bad in that respect as it can get.
posted by effbot at 9:39 AM on March 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Is there a reason to prefer "daylight" spectrum for artificial lighting at night? Those aren't daylight hours, after all.
posted by indubitable at 9:47 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by indubitable at 9:47 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Our city is just getting started on this but actually took a thoughtful approach to it. They did one street in the city with LEDs (lucky for me it was one nearby) and put different color temperature LEDs on each end of the street. They then publicized the street name and asked people to drive/stroll down the street and provide feedback. The yellow/orange temperature LEDs won by a margin of about 4:1 over the blue/white color temperature LEDs. So I guess that's what the city is going with.
posted by Defective_Monk at 11:02 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Defective_Monk at 11:02 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Color rendering (aka, actually being able to see) is a great reason to have light sources that more closely mimic daylight. That said, overly bright lighting without full cutoff fixtures is worse than useless when it comes to the purported purpose of street lights. When you're creating deep shadows for people to hide in, you aren't doing shit to deter crime, even if it makes people feel better.
posted by wierdo at 11:35 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by wierdo at 11:35 AM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
A white LED is a blue LED with a phosphor that absorbs some of the light and emits yellow light, so the blueness is kind of inherent to the technology.
Maybe. But I have a house full of high CRI warm LED recessed lighting fixtures, and they're great. In most ways better than the incandescents they replaced. So it is clearly possible to make "white" LEDs that don't appear blue (though I realize that there are different challenges in street lights vs. a residential can light).
posted by primethyme at 12:04 PM on March 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
Maybe. But I have a house full of high CRI warm LED recessed lighting fixtures, and they're great. In most ways better than the incandescents they replaced. So it is clearly possible to make "white" LEDs that don't appear blue (though I realize that there are different challenges in street lights vs. a residential can light).
posted by primethyme at 12:04 PM on March 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
Let's not forget the Austin moontowers...
I don't know if they are moontowers, and Wikipedia doesn't list Chicago as a location, but there are some big old light towers like this one scattered up and down the lakefront. One might think they had more of a lighthouse function, but they aren't all sitting up against the shoreline. I suspect there used to be more of them.
posted by lagomorphius at 12:29 PM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't know if they are moontowers, and Wikipedia doesn't list Chicago as a location, but there are some big old light towers like this one scattered up and down the lakefront. One might think they had more of a lighthouse function, but they aren't all sitting up against the shoreline. I suspect there used to be more of them.
posted by lagomorphius at 12:29 PM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
A bit of an aside, but what did mercury vapour lit streets look like? The "blueish green tinge" I'm reading about is something I associated with a trend of colour grading in films evoking a certain period, but were the streets actually celadon?
posted by lucidium at 5:46 PM on March 24, 2017
posted by lucidium at 5:46 PM on March 24, 2017
i myself have a very specific problem with LED lights. i was left with HPPD after a bad drug experience some years ago (almost four now), the main problem being palinopsia; while it was quite intense and terrifying at first, it's largely unnoticeable at this point – except when it comes to LED lights. they don't just stick in my vision, they sort of scramble it in some way that is difficult to explain, and can trigger a temporary regression to bad/intense general palinopsia. though this is very specific to me, i'm sure people with photosensitivity (and maybe some others with HPPD?) must have problems with them as well, and the problem isn't just aesthetic – in my case, at least, it literally (de)limits my field of vision.
posted by LeviQayin at 7:24 PM on March 24, 2017
posted by LeviQayin at 7:24 PM on March 24, 2017
Does this also mean an end to street lamps mysteriously turning off as you walk under them?
Yes, ghosts hate blue light.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 7:37 PM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yes, ghosts hate blue light.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 7:37 PM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
I just bought my first pack of "warm" LED bulbs to use at home. I was skeptical because I'm familiar with the harsh white LEDs but they are much better than the CFLs they are replacing. Am I missing something when I ask why they can't use this technology in streetlights? Is it just a cost issue?
posted by atoxyl at 9:55 PM on March 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 9:55 PM on March 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm guessing it's less efficient but they wouldn't be switching to LEDs if they weren't at baseline more efficient/reliable in some way than sodium lamps, would they?
posted by atoxyl at 10:08 PM on March 24, 2017
posted by atoxyl at 10:08 PM on March 24, 2017
A bit of an aside, but what did mercury vapour lit streets look like?
They were fairly blue.
I once worked at a place that moved from an old wooden factory to a new, cavernous steel building. The CEO bought into mercury vapor lamps for the production floor, because they were the energy-efficient choice of the day. So there were clusters of these glaring blue lights up on the high ceiling. Nobody who worked on the floor liked them. I especially hated them because it was really hard to read the dials on the machine tools in my shop. The CEO tried to convince me they were good, using a light meter, and they did send out a lot of light, but still. I wound up putting incandescent task lights on all the machines, and they did the same at all the production stations where they had to read measurements or do fine work.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:24 AM on March 25, 2017
They were fairly blue.
I once worked at a place that moved from an old wooden factory to a new, cavernous steel building. The CEO bought into mercury vapor lamps for the production floor, because they were the energy-efficient choice of the day. So there were clusters of these glaring blue lights up on the high ceiling. Nobody who worked on the floor liked them. I especially hated them because it was really hard to read the dials on the machine tools in my shop. The CEO tried to convince me they were good, using a light meter, and they did send out a lot of light, but still. I wound up putting incandescent task lights on all the machines, and they did the same at all the production stations where they had to read measurements or do fine work.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:24 AM on March 25, 2017
How about we do away with streetlights and just issue all citizens headlamps? I mean, it works fine out in the woods…
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:33 AM on March 25, 2017
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:33 AM on March 25, 2017
atoxyl, I believe warm white LEDs are both less energy-efficient and more expensive up front than cool white LEDs. The cost difference is marginal on the scale of a household, but at the scale of a city it probably adds up.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:35 AM on March 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:35 AM on March 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Will tunable street light breakthrough silence LED critics?
Not the ones who can't get a good night's sleep, at least.
Because Echelon, the company chosen to implement the Minnesota initiative, appear to be using conventional 2700K LEDs which continue to have a pretty strong peak in the blue ~479nm region where the melanopsin-bearing retinal ganglion cells which modulate circadian rhythm are maximally sensitive, instead of Soraa LEDs which use a more violet light to excite the painted-on phosphors which are the basis of all white LEDs. Note that Soraa does make warm white lights for the residential market -- but I've never seen them advertised, and I couldn't find any on sale for less than $20 each.
The CEO tried to convince me they [mercury vapor lights] were good, using a light meter, and they did send out a lot of light, but still. I wound up putting incandescent task lights on all the machines, and they did the same at all the production stations where they had to read measurements or do fine work.
Maybe that was because the fovea, the central area of the retina which is responsible for the most detailed images, is almost entirely lacking in blue-sensitive cones.
posted by jamjam at 12:40 PM on March 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Not the ones who can't get a good night's sleep, at least.
Because Echelon, the company chosen to implement the Minnesota initiative, appear to be using conventional 2700K LEDs which continue to have a pretty strong peak in the blue ~479nm region where the melanopsin-bearing retinal ganglion cells which modulate circadian rhythm are maximally sensitive, instead of Soraa LEDs which use a more violet light to excite the painted-on phosphors which are the basis of all white LEDs. Note that Soraa does make warm white lights for the residential market -- but I've never seen them advertised, and I couldn't find any on sale for less than $20 each.
The CEO tried to convince me they [mercury vapor lights] were good, using a light meter, and they did send out a lot of light, but still. I wound up putting incandescent task lights on all the machines, and they did the same at all the production stations where they had to read measurements or do fine work.
Maybe that was because the fovea, the central area of the retina which is responsible for the most detailed images, is almost entirely lacking in blue-sensitive cones.
posted by jamjam at 12:40 PM on March 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Mercury vapor blue was the street lighting of my childhood. A lot of people were angry when sodium vapor lighting replaced them. If we go back far enough, arc lighting was popular for a time in the early teens.
posted by JJ86 at 5:30 AM on March 26, 2017
posted by JJ86 at 5:30 AM on March 26, 2017
Because Echelon, the company chosen to implement the Minnesota initiative, appear to be using conventional 2700K LEDs which continue to have a pretty strong peak in the blue ~479nm region where the melanopsin-bearing retinal ganglion cells which modulate circadian rhythm are maximally sensitive, instead of Soraa LEDs which use a more violet light to excite the painted-on phosphors which are the basis of all white LEDs. Note that Soraa does make warm white lights for the residential market -- but I've never seen them advertised, and I couldn't find any on sale for less than $20 each.
That's a press release from 2012 - is it clear that other manufacturers haven't improved their spectrum reproduction since then?
posted by atoxyl at 1:09 PM on March 26, 2017
That's a press release from 2012 - is it clear that other manufacturers haven't improved their spectrum reproduction since then?
posted by atoxyl at 1:09 PM on March 26, 2017
Here's some testing of (early generation) LEDs vs. CFLs vs. incandescent. The LEDs tested here do have a blue peak, but the better ones less so than the CFLs and they have a fuller spectrum overall.
posted by atoxyl at 1:20 PM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by atoxyl at 1:20 PM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Thankfully, warm white LED A19 bulbs are $5-$7 apiece these days, and have largely eliminated the blue peak since the phosphor is applied directly to the LEDs rather than being the remote type those Philips use.
The Philips tested in atoxyl's link was better than anything else available at the time, but still seemed a bit off. They were quite bright, but somehow still felt dark like a CFL. I suspect it was the blue peak making my pupils constrict more than appropriate. All the bulbs I've picked up in the last year are easily as good as incandescent bulbs to my eye. (I only buy warm white, FWIW)
posted by wierdo at 11:09 PM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Philips tested in atoxyl's link was better than anything else available at the time, but still seemed a bit off. They were quite bright, but somehow still felt dark like a CFL. I suspect it was the blue peak making my pupils constrict more than appropriate. All the bulbs I've picked up in the last year are easily as good as incandescent bulbs to my eye. (I only buy warm white, FWIW)
posted by wierdo at 11:09 PM on March 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
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On the plus side, there's been a tendency to turn off street lighting in safer areas in many parts of the UK, which at least mitigates some of the problem, even if it's only being done for the cost saving.
posted by pipeski at 3:33 AM on March 24, 2017