Murderous Sleepwalker
April 3, 2017 10:42 AM Subscribe
With Ghost in the Shell failing to overcome the problems of its casting, at least at the box office, Alasdair Stuart takes a look at why the original remains a cyberpunk classic.
Treating my wife as a kind if control group, as she had no idea that GITS had been any kind of preexisting thing, her reaction to the marketing was a lot of "hunh? Whatever." Scarlett Johansson in a white suit, against random backgrounds. Nothing wowie zowie about the trailer's visuals, no hint as to what it's even about, no intimation that the movie is fun (or anything else).
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:56 AM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:56 AM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
It sounds like a boring nothing of a movie with nice effects, but $19 is pretty disastrously bad even for one of those. Power Rangers did better than it despite being an obviously boring greyed-out cashgrab.
posted by Artw at 10:57 AM on April 3, 2017
posted by Artw at 10:57 AM on April 3, 2017
I guess I just didn't see the point. All the advertising has done is make me want to watch the original, but I guess I might catch the live action version if and when it reaches a streaming service.
posted by knapah at 10:59 AM on April 3, 2017
posted by knapah at 10:59 AM on April 3, 2017
I made my husband watch the original movie the other week, because he'd never seen it. It stands up remarkably well for a >20 year old science fiction movie about cyborgs (lotta boobs though). I'd recommend checking it out if you haven't seen it, rather than going to see the ScarJo version.
posted by quaking fajita at 10:59 AM on April 3, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by quaking fajita at 10:59 AM on April 3, 2017 [9 favorites]
I saw the remake, the original, and read the manga. I thought the remake was a good effort, but that the direction seemed to pick the deadest of takes and didn't leave much room for Johansson to act. Perhaps this was true to the source but it left me wanting for more humanity in the first half of the film.
posted by zippy at 11:10 AM on April 3, 2017
posted by zippy at 11:10 AM on April 3, 2017
The shitty thing is, I was almost willing to see it if only for the visuals. I could seriously watch a muted version of the original GITS with no foreground animation, just the gorgeous painted backgrounds and have a good time.
Sadly, the remake just redid things Zach Snyder style with high contrast high fidelity everything. The painterly aesthetic of the original was totally done away with.
posted by sp160n at 11:10 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Sadly, the remake just redid things Zach Snyder style with high contrast high fidelity everything. The painterly aesthetic of the original was totally done away with.
posted by sp160n at 11:10 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've got potentially good news for the Akira adaptation.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:13 AM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 11:13 AM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
I kind of Scarlett Johansson in a white suit, against random backgrounds. Nothing wowie zowie about the trailer's visuals, no hint as to what it's even about, no intimation that the movie is fun (or anything else).
Yeah, It is in my wheelhouse (I'm cyberbunk & sci-fi fan, and watch anime on occasion), but I've never really seen or read anything related to GitS. Watching the trailer, the only interesting thing is having Scarlett Johansson as the lead. Beyond that, it has that slicker, more epic, but generic-Minority-Report-esque-futuristic look that I saw both in the Total Recall and Robocop remake.
posted by FJT at 11:13 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, It is in my wheelhouse (I'm cyberbunk & sci-fi fan, and watch anime on occasion), but I've never really seen or read anything related to GitS. Watching the trailer, the only interesting thing is having Scarlett Johansson as the lead. Beyond that, it has that slicker, more epic, but generic-Minority-Report-esque-futuristic look that I saw both in the Total Recall and Robocop remake.
posted by FJT at 11:13 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
($19M not $19, obvs... it didn't do THAT bad)
posted by Artw at 11:13 AM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:13 AM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
All shell, no ghost.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:14 AM on April 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:14 AM on April 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
Mod note: Couple comments removed; there was a bunch of discussion race, casting, and Japanese vs. non-asian American vs. Asian-American perceptions of character and representation in this previous thread, and it'd be really nice to not rehash that from scratch in here.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:14 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:14 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
If it was the second coming of Christ, I'd wait 'til it showed up on Netflix; that's just how I'm livin'.
But even aside from that, there's a line from the trailer--"They didn't save your life--they STOLE it!"--which suggests pretty strongly to me that this is a Robocop remake, and not, in fact, a GitS remake. That is, the people who made it decided that a riff on Robocop would be easier to understand and more palatable, and nobody would really mind if they just made that little change.
So they released the chase scene from early in the movie, presumably to show how faithful they were to the source material. This is basically what they did with Watchmen, too, IMO--they changed the heart of the thing, and then tried to make up for it by recreating some of the individual panels of the comic with slavish devotion...
But again, if it was the greatest thing since pay toilets, I'd still wait until I could see it in the privacy of my own home.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 11:15 AM on April 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
But even aside from that, there's a line from the trailer--"They didn't save your life--they STOLE it!"--which suggests pretty strongly to me that this is a Robocop remake, and not, in fact, a GitS remake. That is, the people who made it decided that a riff on Robocop would be easier to understand and more palatable, and nobody would really mind if they just made that little change.
So they released the chase scene from early in the movie, presumably to show how faithful they were to the source material. This is basically what they did with Watchmen, too, IMO--they changed the heart of the thing, and then tried to make up for it by recreating some of the individual panels of the comic with slavish devotion...
But again, if it was the greatest thing since pay toilets, I'd still wait until I could see it in the privacy of my own home.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 11:15 AM on April 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
($19M not $19, obvs... it didn't do THAT bad)
$40mil. gross international FWIW. I suspect it'll do fine internationally once it opens everywhere.
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:17 AM on April 3, 2017
$40mil. gross international FWIW. I suspect it'll do fine internationally once it opens everywhere.
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:17 AM on April 3, 2017
FWIW. I suspect it'll do fine internationally once it opens everywhere.
Yes, it's going to be popular in Japan other parts of Asia.
posted by My Dad at 11:18 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yes, it's going to be popular in Japan other parts of Asia.
posted by My Dad at 11:18 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't really understand any non-money reason for any of the current glut of live-action remakes of animated movies, but I am interested to know whether anyone's asked Scarlett Johansson why she's so interested in making movies where her body gets deconstructed - this, Lucy, Under the Skin, Her (sort of).
posted by Grangousier at 11:21 AM on April 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 11:21 AM on April 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
Just as a thought experiment imagine how much money a Black Widow movie would have made instead.
posted by Artw at 11:22 AM on April 3, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:22 AM on April 3, 2017 [16 favorites]
So anyone who has read the manga sequels by Masamune Shirow: are they any good? Are they worth buying and reading?
Like The Invisibles, Ghost in the Shell is something I re-read every two or three years only because I have fucked-up dreams every time.
posted by infinitewindow at 11:22 AM on April 3, 2017
Like The Invisibles, Ghost in the Shell is something I re-read every two or three years only because I have fucked-up dreams every time.
posted by infinitewindow at 11:22 AM on April 3, 2017
it's just a really, really bad movie whatever casting decisions they made
I don't think you can separate the two things quite that easily. Not in the sense that it's bad because of the whitewashed casting. Rather, they went with whitewashed casting because it's a bad movie. The desire to throw in some random big name actor with no regard for how appropriate her casting might be indicates that nobody was thinking about the film beyond hypothetical dollar signs.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:24 AM on April 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
I don't think you can separate the two things quite that easily. Not in the sense that it's bad because of the whitewashed casting. Rather, they went with whitewashed casting because it's a bad movie. The desire to throw in some random big name actor with no regard for how appropriate her casting might be indicates that nobody was thinking about the film beyond hypothetical dollar signs.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:24 AM on April 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
but I am interested to know whether anyone's asked Scarlett Johansson why she's so interested in making movies where her body gets deconstructed - this, Lucy, Under the Skin, Her (sort of).
I suspect it's less that Johansson wants these roles and more (as noted in the article) that lots of casting directors think she looks like what a perfect human created by a bunch of white scientists would be, so she gets offered these parts and not much else.
posted by crush at 11:28 AM on April 3, 2017 [16 favorites]
I suspect it's less that Johansson wants these roles and more (as noted in the article) that lots of casting directors think she looks like what a perfect human created by a bunch of white scientists would be, so she gets offered these parts and not much else.
posted by crush at 11:28 AM on April 3, 2017 [16 favorites]
I've got potentially good news for the Akira adaptation.
That just seems like a Warcraft like waste of talent on something that doesn't need doing. If they want to give him fat wads of cash that;s great, but that project is cursed and no good can come of it. I'm hoping GitS sinks the thing TBH.
posted by Artw at 11:38 AM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
That just seems like a Warcraft like waste of talent on something that doesn't need doing. If they want to give him fat wads of cash that;s great, but that project is cursed and no good can come of it. I'm hoping GitS sinks the thing TBH.
posted by Artw at 11:38 AM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Looking at the trailer again, it's trying to hard to mimic the visuals of the anime, while not adding anything. Well, other than the attractive woman in skintight body suit, which isn't exactly in short supply on the internet, according to a friend of mine. Hell, the original anime isn't that good story wise.
I'd kill for decent live action Appleseed though.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:46 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'd kill for decent live action Appleseed though.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:46 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Just as a thought experiment imagine how much money a Black Widow movie would have made instead.
I've been running that thought experiment for literally years now, and it's like the thought I had about the lack of another Predator movie for more than a decade between Predator 2 and the first AvP movie: imagine the owners of the franchise dumping a big pile of money in a Hollywood parking lot and setting it on fire, every year.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:48 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've been running that thought experiment for literally years now, and it's like the thought I had about the lack of another Predator movie for more than a decade between Predator 2 and the first AvP movie: imagine the owners of the franchise dumping a big pile of money in a Hollywood parking lot and setting it on fire, every year.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:48 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'd kill for decent live action Appleseed though.
I'd help.
posted by brand-gnu at 11:49 AM on April 3, 2017
I'd help.
posted by brand-gnu at 11:49 AM on April 3, 2017
This is actually something of a relief because I was kind of intrigued by the remake despite all the warning signs and the whitewashing, and now I don't have to grapple with a problematic movie that also happens to be quite good; it's shit all around so I can forget about its existence until it pops up on a streaming service and I watch it out of the same morbid curiosity that led me to watch, say, Doomsday. (Also, don't watch Doomsday.)
At least this will go better than that time I thought paying money to watch the Aeon Flux movie in a theatre would somehow be a good idea.
posted by chrominance at 11:51 AM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
At least this will go better than that time I thought paying money to watch the Aeon Flux movie in a theatre would somehow be a good idea.
posted by chrominance at 11:51 AM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also: as someone who's never watched or read any GitS stuff, it's actually a bit daunting trying to figure out what to watch. Like, there's two continuities and they've already remade the 1995 movie once and there's literally a movie called "The New Movie" that I guess is a sequel maybe any also Stand Alone Complex has nothing to do with the movies at all but also they made two movies out of clips from the anime series and oh I don't know anymore.
posted by chrominance at 11:54 AM on April 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by chrominance at 11:54 AM on April 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Aw, I love Doomsday.
posted by Artw at 11:56 AM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:56 AM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
don't watch Doomsday
*shrugs* I think Doomsday is a fun bad movie and to its credit knows what it is. Ghost in the Shell, based on all the marketing I've seen & the casting, doesn't seem to know what it is and that will be the kiss of death in the North American market.
will go better than that time I thought paying money to watch the Aeon Flux movie in a theatre would somehow be a good idea.
There's your problem right there.
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:57 AM on April 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
*shrugs* I think Doomsday is a fun bad movie and to its credit knows what it is. Ghost in the Shell, based on all the marketing I've seen & the casting, doesn't seem to know what it is and that will be the kiss of death in the North American market.
will go better than that time I thought paying money to watch the Aeon Flux movie in a theatre would somehow be a good idea.
There's your problem right there.
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:57 AM on April 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
The remake of the 1995 is some kind of digital remastering isn't it? I haven't seen it but I doubt it changes much except for surface texture... also as a veteran of comics recolourings I suspect those changes will be bad.
posted by Artw at 11:57 AM on April 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:57 AM on April 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
You know what's in the theatres and unexpectedly great? Kong. There's a movie that absolutely knows what it is.
posted by Artw at 11:59 AM on April 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:59 AM on April 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
nobody was thinking about the film beyond hypothetical dollar signs.
Hollywood is *always* about the $ signs: That’s expected. What’s disappointing is when they’re lazy about it.
GiTS could have been good: It could have been a well crafted story with acting, prop., graphic design & cinematography all coming together to make something worth watching. Instead, they went with the "shove the nearest off the shelf plotline into the carcass of the existing brand & hope that the anticipatory buzz you get from the fanbase is enough to get people into the cinemas option".
This is why people are pointing at the white-washing. It’s not that the movie was guaranteed to be bad with ScaJo in it - far from it - but that it was symptomatic of a wider failure.
The prop design is supposed to be pretty good though (thank Weta workshop) so there’s that I suppose.
(the marketing budget for Passengers was *huge*: Couldn’t get away from it. I don’t think GiTS got the same attention.)
posted by pharm at 11:59 AM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Hollywood is *always* about the $ signs: That’s expected. What’s disappointing is when they’re lazy about it.
GiTS could have been good: It could have been a well crafted story with acting, prop., graphic design & cinematography all coming together to make something worth watching. Instead, they went with the "shove the nearest off the shelf plotline into the carcass of the existing brand & hope that the anticipatory buzz you get from the fanbase is enough to get people into the cinemas option".
This is why people are pointing at the white-washing. It’s not that the movie was guaranteed to be bad with ScaJo in it - far from it - but that it was symptomatic of a wider failure.
The prop design is supposed to be pretty good though (thank Weta workshop) so there’s that I suppose.
(the marketing budget for Passengers was *huge*: Couldn’t get away from it. I don’t think GiTS got the same attention.)
posted by pharm at 11:59 AM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
The way to think about the various iterations of GITS media is that they're loosely related remixes of each other that don't generally have chronological connections. The new movie fits into that, at least.
And here's a twitter thread about why you should just rewatch Stand Alone Complex instead.
posted by figurant at 12:02 PM on April 3, 2017 [9 favorites]
And here's a twitter thread about why you should just rewatch Stand Alone Complex instead.
posted by figurant at 12:02 PM on April 3, 2017 [9 favorites]
I looked up some clips of the remastered version in an attempt to figure out which movie was which, and...no. The 3D-ified retextured weirdness is super strange and did not age well. Avoid.
posted by quaking fajita at 12:03 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by quaking fajita at 12:03 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Treating my wife as a kind if control group, as she had no idea that GITS had been any kind of preexisting thing, her reaction to the marketing was a lot of "hunh? Whatever." Scarlett Johansson in a white suit, against random backgrounds. Nothing wowie zowie about the trailer's visuals, no hint as to what it's even about, no intimation that the movie is fun (or anything else).
In retrospect it's absolutely mystifying that the trailers leaned so hard on re-creating iconic shots from the Oshii movie, bereft of any kind of context that would sell someone unfamiliar with the original on this adaptation, when the actual script seems tailor-made to render anyone who would recognize those shots incoherent with either rage or confusion.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:04 PM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
In retrospect it's absolutely mystifying that the trailers leaned so hard on re-creating iconic shots from the Oshii movie, bereft of any kind of context that would sell someone unfamiliar with the original on this adaptation, when the actual script seems tailor-made to render anyone who would recognize those shots incoherent with either rage or confusion.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:04 PM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
it's actually a bit daunting trying to figure out what to watch.
The curse of the successful franchise...
You have basically two entry points that matter:
* The original 1995 movie, which is the most iconic part of the franchise. Treat it as a standalone movie.
* The first animated series (Standalone Complex). This is the entry point to the continuity in the newer animated series. Once you've watched it, you can watch the rest of the animated series without confusion.
I think you can safely ignore Innocence and the clip movies...
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:06 PM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
The curse of the successful franchise...
You have basically two entry points that matter:
* The original 1995 movie, which is the most iconic part of the franchise. Treat it as a standalone movie.
* The first animated series (Standalone Complex). This is the entry point to the continuity in the newer animated series. Once you've watched it, you can watch the rest of the animated series without confusion.
I think you can safely ignore Innocence and the clip movies...
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:06 PM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
SAC is really an incredible anime series. The opening theme is totally awesome, as well. And the whole idea of the "Stand Alone Complex", of course, seems incredibly prescient given the rise of stochastic terrorism in the decade since the series premiered.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:13 PM on April 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 12:13 PM on April 3, 2017 [8 favorites]
In retrospect it's absolutely mystifying that the trailers leaned so hard on re-creating iconic shots from the Oshii movie, bereft of any kind of context that would sell someone unfamiliar with the original on this adaptation, when the actual script seems tailor-made to render anyone who would recognize those shots incoherent with either rage or confusion.
"Hey, if we show this to the fanboys, they'll like, go crazy and shit. They'll all see the movie 20 times each to see this scene- and oh yeah, we'll put some a those tamagotchi tanks in there too. Fanboys eat that shit up."
In other words, they took one of the most iconic, yet only marginally relevant scenes of the original anime, and tossed it out there to attract anime fans. And it worked to the extent that I did hear fans saying that it looked like an awesome recreation of the very. Slow. Boring. Scene. From the movie. They didn't quite grasp that GitS fans tend to like the philosophizing, and want some decent writing with their T&A and explosions.
posted by happyroach at 12:32 PM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
"Hey, if we show this to the fanboys, they'll like, go crazy and shit. They'll all see the movie 20 times each to see this scene- and oh yeah, we'll put some a those tamagotchi tanks in there too. Fanboys eat that shit up."
In other words, they took one of the most iconic, yet only marginally relevant scenes of the original anime, and tossed it out there to attract anime fans. And it worked to the extent that I did hear fans saying that it looked like an awesome recreation of the very. Slow. Boring. Scene. From the movie. They didn't quite grasp that GitS fans tend to like the philosophizing, and want some decent writing with their T&A and explosions.
posted by happyroach at 12:32 PM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Just recently rewatched the 1995 original--still great, and quite beautiful. Definitely worth watching.
posted by n. moon at 12:40 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by n. moon at 12:40 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
OK, I'm willing to say it, SAC is better than the original 1995 movie.
posted by Pendragon at 12:41 PM on April 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 12:41 PM on April 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
So disappointing. I can't believe somebody was like "Yeah, this is a great script. Let's dump over a hundred million into this." Alachia Queen is pretty spot on with my thoughts and feelings about it
Reddit has a good guide on Where to start Ghost in the Shell
OK, I'm willing to say it, SAC is better than the original 1995 movie.
No, it really isn't.
posted by P.o.B. at 12:43 PM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Reddit has a good guide on Where to start Ghost in the Shell
OK, I'm willing to say it, SAC is better than the original 1995 movie.
No, it really isn't.
posted by P.o.B. at 12:43 PM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Nthing Stand Alone Complex if you're someone looking for a place to start. It has nothing to do with the movie story-wise. It's just a police procedural set in the future and is probably one of the best sci-fi shows, live action or otherwise, in the last 20 years.
Though one note of caution: tobascodagama links to the opening above. The song is neat but the CG has...not aged well. The actual show is not CG, so don't let that throw you off watching it.
OK, I'm willing to say it, SAC is better than the original 1995 movie.
Having just rewatched all of SAC and the 1995 movie in the last few weeks, this is correct. SAC refined the movie and concentrated everything that was good about it.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:48 PM on April 3, 2017 [12 favorites]
Though one note of caution: tobascodagama links to the opening above. The song is neat but the CG has...not aged well. The actual show is not CG, so don't let that throw you off watching it.
OK, I'm willing to say it, SAC is better than the original 1995 movie.
Having just rewatched all of SAC and the 1995 movie in the last few weeks, this is correct. SAC refined the movie and concentrated everything that was good about it.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:48 PM on April 3, 2017 [12 favorites]
No, it really isn't.
Yes, it really is :-)
posted by Pendragon at 12:49 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yes, it really is :-)
posted by Pendragon at 12:49 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I thought this would be about the Oshii movie. The Oshii movie is one of my favorite films of all time, but I've probably gushed enough about it here for now.
I had never read the manga until this year. More, I'd avoided it. The only bits I'd seen circulating online were the more shocking sexualized bits, and conversations about it seemed to always get completely stuck on that, so I'd written it off as I guess porn-with-a-plot-in-there-somewhere. Which is a wrong impression not especially helped by Masamune's reputation or the fanbase's interests. Once I actually sat down with it, I enjoyed it quite a lot. It surprised me how many of the plot points from both Oshii movies and the anime series had originated in the manga. But where the movies and TV adaptations flesh them out into full plots, the manga is almost careless in how many cool, interesting ideas it just leaves lying about.
The biggest shock I had with the manga is how funny it is, though. Yes, it's a rather disturbing vision of a possible future where humans and machines have sort of merged to the detriment of things like human worth and human rights; but it approaches all of that with a good-natured and weirdly innocent sense of humor. It has a sense of fun that all adaptations thus far have entirely excised.
posted by byanyothername at 12:54 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
I had never read the manga until this year. More, I'd avoided it. The only bits I'd seen circulating online were the more shocking sexualized bits, and conversations about it seemed to always get completely stuck on that, so I'd written it off as I guess porn-with-a-plot-in-there-somewhere. Which is a wrong impression not especially helped by Masamune's reputation or the fanbase's interests. Once I actually sat down with it, I enjoyed it quite a lot. It surprised me how many of the plot points from both Oshii movies and the anime series had originated in the manga. But where the movies and TV adaptations flesh them out into full plots, the manga is almost careless in how many cool, interesting ideas it just leaves lying about.
The biggest shock I had with the manga is how funny it is, though. Yes, it's a rather disturbing vision of a possible future where humans and machines have sort of merged to the detriment of things like human worth and human rights; but it approaches all of that with a good-natured and weirdly innocent sense of humor. It has a sense of fun that all adaptations thus far have entirely excised.
posted by byanyothername at 12:54 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also: is there any legit way to watch the subbed 1995 movie streaming? Amazon Prime and Hulu only have it dubbed and it's not on Netflix or Crunchyroll. I really tried to watch it in some legit way before turning to...other means...but I'd like to pay for it if I could.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:55 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Sangermaine at 12:55 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
The different versions of Ghost in the Shell are like the different versions of Hitchhiker's Guide -- they're all similar in fundamental ways but with major differences in tone, theme and style, none of them objectively better than the rest, and you can make a decent case for any one as the "definitive" story. Except the US-produced live action movie, which is just a weird artifact that sits off in a corner by itself while everybody tries to ignore it.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:58 PM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:58 PM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Oh: and the manga's depiction of the Puppeteer is a lot more interesting and...novel than the movie's Puppet Master. The latter is a serviceable but standard issue cyberpunk AI-that-wants-to-be-free. It was one of the seminal works in establishing the cliche, so I'm not too bothered by that, but the manga really emphasizes the Puppeteer's newness and fundamental alienness in a way the Oshii film doesn't. It also alludes to the Puppeteer transcending physicality, which is something I can certainly understand Oshii wanting to cut back on; but it's the rare example of digital-network-as-spiritual-plane that actually works for me. That seems to be an idea that gets revisited occasionally, but Lain and the final stage in Rez are the only other examples I can think of that pull it off.
posted by byanyothername at 12:59 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by byanyothername at 12:59 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
(been meaning to watch SAC--this thread may what finally gets me to do it!)
posted by n. moon at 1:00 PM on April 3, 2017
posted by n. moon at 1:00 PM on April 3, 2017
Oh, and normally I watch anime subbed, but the SAC dub is actually pretty good.
posted by Pendragon at 1:03 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Pendragon at 1:03 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
That seems to be an idea that gets revisited occasionally, but Lain and the final stage in Rez are the only other examples I can think of that pull it off.
Please God do not let Hollywood do a live-action Lain remake.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:03 PM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Please God do not let Hollywood do a live-action Lain remake.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:03 PM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
The biggest shock I had with the manga is how funny it is, though.
It's 60% the tachikomas and 40% the random silly faces.
posted by sukeban at 1:04 PM on April 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
It's 60% the tachikomas and 40% the random silly faces.
posted by sukeban at 1:04 PM on April 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
I legit 100% forgot Arise existed from 2015 until this moment.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:08 PM on April 3, 2017
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:08 PM on April 3, 2017
Also: is there any legit way to watch the subbed 1995 movie streaming? Amazon Prime and Hulu only have it dubbed and it's not on Netflix or Crunchyroll.
Obtain the subbed version from illicit sources but then play the dubbed version muted on a different device every time you watch it.
>.>
<.<
posted by tobascodagama at 1:09 PM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Obtain the subbed version from illicit sources but then play the dubbed version muted on a different device every time you watch it.
>.>
<.<
posted by tobascodagama at 1:09 PM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Please, nobody ever remake Lain. Or Haibane Renmei ( a series that had me crying for weeks).
posted by Pendragon at 1:09 PM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 1:09 PM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
I don't think they could remake Lain live-action. It's definitely a wonderful series but also a product of its time and culture.
I agree - it's like trying to reboot Hackers - as a time capsule of sorts, it's wonderful (or at least thoroughly enjoyable, for Hackers).
posted by filthy light thief at 1:12 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I agree - it's like trying to reboot Hackers - as a time capsule of sorts, it's wonderful (or at least thoroughly enjoyable, for Hackers).
posted by filthy light thief at 1:12 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Oshii movie is one of my favorite films of all time, but I've probably gushed enough about it here for now.
No you haven't. The movie has some deep and interesting elements which I hardly ever see people even get close to discussing.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:21 PM on April 3, 2017
No you haven't. The movie has some deep and interesting elements which I hardly ever see people even get close to discussing.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:21 PM on April 3, 2017
Please God do not let Hollywood do a live-action Lain remake.
I would consider this actual blasphemy, no lie. Unless you put someone like Alejandro Jodorowsky or Grant Morrison at the helm and tell them to just go nuts.
posted by byanyothername at 1:21 PM on April 3, 2017
I would consider this actual blasphemy, no lie. Unless you put someone like Alejandro Jodorowsky or Grant Morrison at the helm and tell them to just go nuts.
posted by byanyothername at 1:21 PM on April 3, 2017
Yes, that would be the only exception for me... But that will never happen.
posted by Pendragon at 1:24 PM on April 3, 2017
posted by Pendragon at 1:24 PM on April 3, 2017
The only live-action Lain remake I could accept would be a camera pointed at power lines for 100 minutes.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:29 PM on April 3, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:29 PM on April 3, 2017 [15 favorites]
Dear Hollywood: If you attempt - no, if you even think about making a live action remake of Nausicaä I'm going to hunt each and every one of you down like wild mongrel dingoes and utterly defile the corpses of your wastrel ancestors.
You've already mucked it up enough.
posted by loquacious at 1:32 PM on April 3, 2017
You've already mucked it up enough.
posted by loquacious at 1:32 PM on April 3, 2017
Sorry to interrupt the deraily discussion about random unrelated anime, but it looks like me and maybe two other people in this thread actually watched the live action GitS? Anybody else? Did anyone think it was a casting choice that killed it or was it just bad? I thought it was just terrible. GitS overlaid with Blade Runner aesthetic. Waaaayyy to expository. Lack of any real tension. Idk, maybe fun to look at for a couple of hours but as someone who thinks the original film is pretty damn great this was just a big "wtf?" from beginning to end.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:33 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by P.o.B. at 1:33 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
I don't think they could remake Lain live-action. It's definitely a wonderful series but also a product of its time and culture.
anem0ne
But it's set in the present day, present time.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:33 PM on April 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
anem0ne
But it's set in the present day, present time.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:33 PM on April 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
P.o.B.,
As mentioned above, I saw it (on Saturday), and as I said I agree with you about it being terrible. It's not simply that it changed a lot from the original, which adaptations necessarily have to do. It was just a bad movie. The dialogue was awful (like one character literally says "ghost in the shell" at one point), the story bland and cliche, even the action was dull. The look and feel was derivative and boring, but that's kind of unavoidable, I think. The changes they made were baffling and pointless and just made a dumb, dull movie.
SPOILERS
The only difference I could see the casting making was in the (bizarre, unnecessary) plot twist at the end where it turns out the Major used to be Japanese, since they wouldn't have done that if the actress were already supposed to be Japanese. But the rest of the stupid movie would still be there.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:39 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
As mentioned above, I saw it (on Saturday), and as I said I agree with you about it being terrible. It's not simply that it changed a lot from the original, which adaptations necessarily have to do. It was just a bad movie. The dialogue was awful (like one character literally says "ghost in the shell" at one point), the story bland and cliche, even the action was dull. The look and feel was derivative and boring, but that's kind of unavoidable, I think. The changes they made were baffling and pointless and just made a dumb, dull movie.
SPOILERS
The only difference I could see the casting making was in the (bizarre, unnecessary) plot twist at the end where it turns out the Major used to be Japanese, since they wouldn't have done that if the actress were already supposed to be Japanese. But the rest of the stupid movie would still be there.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:39 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm never going to see the live-action GotS. NEVER!!!
posted by Pendragon at 1:40 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 1:40 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Verge articles touches on this, but one problem with adapting older cyberpunk works like Ghost in the Shell (or the grandaddy of them all, Neuromancer) is that the cyberpunk aesthetic and attitude has so thoroughly permeated pop culture and consciousness that they're going to feel retroactively derivative because so much of modern sci-fi and even conceptions of society are derivatives of them. It makes me sad because I love Neuromancer but at this point a movie version would probably be rejected as rip-off of The Matrix.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:46 PM on April 3, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by Sangermaine at 1:46 PM on April 3, 2017 [9 favorites]
I saw it last night and it felt very under-written or maybe over edited. It just jumps from scene to scene without much flow and I never did figure out what was the point of the organization she was working for.
posted by octothorpe at 1:55 PM on April 3, 2017
posted by octothorpe at 1:55 PM on April 3, 2017
Then you get something like Dredd where the hacking bits are basically retro.
posted by Artw at 1:56 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 1:56 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
It makes me sad because I love Neuromancer but at this point a movie version would probably be rejected as rip-off of The Matrix.
I see that as the absolute worst-case scenario since you'd have to wedge in an awful lot of kung-fu fighting and hero's journey BS to turn Neuromancer into The Matrix.
Best-case scenario? The filmmakers faithfully and meticulously adapt the book as a future-travelogue heist movie with backstabby intrigue and memorably-designed cyberspace sequences, and people assume that it's a ripoff of both Inception and Tron.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:58 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
I see that as the absolute worst-case scenario since you'd have to wedge in an awful lot of kung-fu fighting and hero's journey BS to turn Neuromancer into The Matrix.
Best-case scenario? The filmmakers faithfully and meticulously adapt the book as a future-travelogue heist movie with backstabby intrigue and memorably-designed cyberspace sequences, and people assume that it's a ripoff of both Inception and Tron.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:58 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
but I am interested to know whether anyone's asked Scarlett Johansson why she's so interested in making movies where her body gets deconstructed - this, Lucy, Under the Skin, Her (sort of).
I suspect it's less that Johansson wants these roles and more (as noted in the article) that lots of casting directors think she looks like what a perfect human created by a bunch of white scientists would be, so she gets offered these parts and not much else.
Not Johansson's own words, but simply an interpretation from The Atlantic (article written in 2014):
I suspect it's less that Johansson wants these roles and more (as noted in the article) that lots of casting directors think she looks like what a perfect human created by a bunch of white scientists would be, so she gets offered these parts and not much else.
Not Johansson's own words, but simply an interpretation from The Atlantic (article written in 2014):
But in most of these roles, part of her is missing. In Her, it was her body. Johansson gives an entirely vocal performance as Samantha, the Operating System that the film’s protagonist purchases and then falls in love with. In Under the Skin and Lucy, her body is very much present, but her personality has gone missing. For different reasons, both characters are emotionally inert, and the indelible image of each film is Johansson’s blank stare. Like most great actors, she certainly has the skill to convey what is inside her head with just a look, but in these films, her mind and her soul remain intentionally, and frustratingly, hidden.posted by sapagan at 2:20 PM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
So what to make of this gradual vanishing act? Is Johansson simply challenging herself with roles that compartmentalize her talents? Possibly. But there is also a strongly feminist streak running through each of these films. Considering her on-the-record statements about Hollywood’s objectification of women, we might be meant to read her recent work as a unique and powerful statement about an industry and society that make its women disappear.
I haven't seen it either, but I've picked up enough about the plot to know that one change in particular really seems to miss the point of every other version of the story. The idea of the Major's origin being a dark secret, and that underlying the trend of converting people to cyborgs is an Evil Conspiracy That Must Be Stopped, seems to me to be fundamentally mismatched with the GitS setting.
One of the constants in all the adaptations has been that transhumanism is just a fact of life, with all the political intrigue and shadowy noir conspiracies moving forward from that, rather than looking backward at how we got to that point and whether sticking robot bits into people (or vice versa) is morally fraught. This is why (anime) Togusa's quaint insistence on remaining fully organic and using a Mateba just makes him kind of a weirdo, rather than a political rebel.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:25 PM on April 3, 2017 [13 favorites]
One of the constants in all the adaptations has been that transhumanism is just a fact of life, with all the political intrigue and shadowy noir conspiracies moving forward from that, rather than looking backward at how we got to that point and whether sticking robot bits into people (or vice versa) is morally fraught. This is why (anime) Togusa's quaint insistence on remaining fully organic and using a Mateba just makes him kind of a weirdo, rather than a political rebel.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:25 PM on April 3, 2017 [13 favorites]
They made the first five minutes of this available on YouTube, which was a great service to me; the initial fight scene, though beautifully dressed by WETA, is totally inert. There's no sensation of motion or drama, partially due to overuse of a slow motion camera and partially due to the director/DP simply having no idea where to point the camera. Every time the film goes off of a simple squared up establishing shot it goes to shit. There's a moment when the Major is just sort of moving her gun around in slow motion and... I'm sorry, what's meant to be happening there?
In any case, perhaps the marketers should reconsider this particular strategy when their movie opens with such a wet fart.
posted by selfnoise at 2:28 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
In any case, perhaps the marketers should reconsider this particular strategy when their movie opens with such a wet fart.
posted by selfnoise at 2:28 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also: as someone who's never watched or read any GitS stuff, it's actually a bit daunting trying to figure out what to watch.
Start at the beginning then work your way up is always the way to bet when unsure about what to see/read when.
In this case the original 1995 movie, or if you cannot find that, its partial 2008 remake/update Ghost in the Shell 2.0 are the best starting points. You need to know nothing going in.
The same actually also goes for the 2002 tv series Ghost in the Shell: Stand-Alone Complex, but that's a far bigger time investment, 2 seasons of twentysix episodes of twentyfive minutes each. Worthwhile though and finally available on blueray in complete form.
(There are also compilations sets of the major storylines of each season, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex - The Laughing Man and Individual Eleven, but those miss a lot.)
Movie wise, Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence is a sequel to the original film and needs nothing else to enjoy it, while Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex - Solid State Society is a sequel to the television series.
Finally, there's Ghost in the Shell: Arise, a reboot/prequel of sorts of four original video animations, a third continuity therefore, which also gave rise to a television series GitS: Arise Alternative Architecture, which reworked and expanded the OVAs. This is also where Ghost in the Shell: The New Movie fits in.
The manga is its own thing entirely and your enjoyment of it depends how much you like Masamune Shirow and his usual obsessions.
Let's not mention the Tachikomatic Days shorts or the various short movies made for advertising purposes.
posted by MartinWisse at 2:30 PM on April 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Start at the beginning then work your way up is always the way to bet when unsure about what to see/read when.
In this case the original 1995 movie, or if you cannot find that, its partial 2008 remake/update Ghost in the Shell 2.0 are the best starting points. You need to know nothing going in.
The same actually also goes for the 2002 tv series Ghost in the Shell: Stand-Alone Complex, but that's a far bigger time investment, 2 seasons of twentysix episodes of twentyfive minutes each. Worthwhile though and finally available on blueray in complete form.
(There are also compilations sets of the major storylines of each season, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex - The Laughing Man and Individual Eleven, but those miss a lot.)
Movie wise, Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence is a sequel to the original film and needs nothing else to enjoy it, while Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex - Solid State Society is a sequel to the television series.
Finally, there's Ghost in the Shell: Arise, a reboot/prequel of sorts of four original video animations, a third continuity therefore, which also gave rise to a television series GitS: Arise Alternative Architecture, which reworked and expanded the OVAs. This is also where Ghost in the Shell: The New Movie fits in.
The manga is its own thing entirely and your enjoyment of it depends how much you like Masamune Shirow and his usual obsessions.
Let's not mention the Tachikomatic Days shorts or the various short movies made for advertising purposes.
posted by MartinWisse at 2:30 PM on April 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
"Beyond Hypothetical Dollar Signs" is the name I will use when I finally beak out as a highbrow literary rapper. Maybe just "BeyondHypo$$."
posted by Western Infidels at 4:50 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Western Infidels at 4:50 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
So anyone who has read the manga sequels by Masamune Shirow: are they any good? Are they worth buying and reading?
Well, infinitewindow, are you a fan? One that needs service? If so. GITS2: Man-Machine Interface has you covered. There are a few interesting bits snuggled in between all the tits and ass (though very little in the way of actual [or virtual] nudity), but if you're the joyless sort that's put off by relentless, gratuitous panty shots, the incoherent jumble of a plot probably won't be enough to win you over
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 4:51 PM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Well, infinitewindow, are you a fan? One that needs service? If so. GITS2: Man-Machine Interface has you covered. There are a few interesting bits snuggled in between all the tits and ass (though very little in the way of actual [or virtual] nudity), but if you're the joyless sort that's put off by relentless, gratuitous panty shots, the incoherent jumble of a plot probably won't be enough to win you over
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 4:51 PM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Gibson's own opinion on The Matrix vis-a-vis Neuromancer.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:52 PM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:52 PM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
It's 60% the tachikomas and 40% the random silly faces.
And 30% pantsu shots.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:39 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
And 30% pantsu shots.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:39 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
And 30% pantsu shots.
Was that as much of a thing in the first one? Certainly Shirow's always pandered to the "male gaze" but when GITS 2 came out, I found the upskirt frenzy of that book downright jarring, and I appreciate ridiculous fanservice. Little did I know that much of Masamune Shirow's later work tends to be forthrightly pornographic.
The tachikomas, though! Those little guys were sadly lacking in the movies! And in the comic sequel. Glad to hear they made it into the later anime.
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 7:50 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Was that as much of a thing in the first one? Certainly Shirow's always pandered to the "male gaze" but when GITS 2 came out, I found the upskirt frenzy of that book downright jarring, and I appreciate ridiculous fanservice. Little did I know that much of Masamune Shirow's later work tends to be forthrightly pornographic.
The tachikomas, though! Those little guys were sadly lacking in the movies! And in the comic sequel. Glad to hear they made it into the later anime.
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 7:50 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Doomsday
If actual cannibals dancing to Fine Young Cannibals isn't your thing, well, it's like I don't even know you
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:48 PM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
If actual cannibals dancing to Fine Young Cannibals isn't your thing, well, it's like I don't even know you
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:48 PM on April 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Was that as much of a thing in the first one? Certainly Shirow's always pandered to the "male gaze" but when GITS 2 came out, I found the upskirt frenzy of that book downright jarring, and I appreciate ridiculous fanservice.
I found it not just the fanservice that was disturbing, but the fact that at some point Shirow completely lost any idea of what a human woman looks like. As in, at a certain point I turned to my partner an said "Those aren't breasts, those are pedipalps!" At the same time the writing, already one of his weak points, pretty much completely degenerated into an incoherent ramble. I find it a perfect example of a comic artist being bitten by the Brain Eater, sadly.
posted by happyroach at 9:16 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I found it not just the fanservice that was disturbing, but the fact that at some point Shirow completely lost any idea of what a human woman looks like. As in, at a certain point I turned to my partner an said "Those aren't breasts, those are pedipalps!" At the same time the writing, already one of his weak points, pretty much completely degenerated into an incoherent ramble. I find it a perfect example of a comic artist being bitten by the Brain Eater, sadly.
posted by happyroach at 9:16 PM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Shirow's made a name for himself and now, rather than worry about how to do it again, I think he's basically retired to happily draw weird shiny breasts and bottoms and live with his pet spiders. Imagine if George Lucas had done that after the original Star Wars trilogy.
posted by BinaryApe at 1:07 AM on April 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by BinaryApe at 1:07 AM on April 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
A warning for people planning to watch Stand Alone Complex for the first time: if you're not suddenly sniffling at one point in a later episode you might not actually be human.
And if you are, it's another sign of just how clever the series is.
posted by BinaryApe at 1:36 AM on April 4, 2017
And if you are, it's another sign of just how clever the series is.
posted by BinaryApe at 1:36 AM on April 4, 2017
from womenwriteaboutcomics, I like this (nsfw) compare/contrast with Brandon Graham's (raunchy but not icky) Dirty Pair fan comic
Part 1/4 of a multiparter regarding the GITS franchise
Finishing with a nice takedown as digestif:
Three Women Having Sex On A Boat: Ghost in the Shell’s Sex Scene
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:18 AM on April 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
It’s unfortunate that the idea of a female character having sexual agency in a fan comic is enough to make the comic notable, but Graham takes it much further.Further womenwriteaboutcomics on Shirow:
Part 1/4 of a multiparter regarding the GITS franchise
Finishing with a nice takedown as digestif:
Three Women Having Sex On A Boat: Ghost in the Shell’s Sex Scene
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:18 AM on April 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
THE MATRIX is arguably the ultimate “cyberpunk” artifact. Or will be, if the sequels don’t blow. I hope they don’t, and somehow have a hunch they won’t
Crap, this was so close on being filed under "stuff Gibson presciently wrote about".
GitS was doomed because it was a option that was burning on someones' pocket, very much like Akira will fail (and Peele should stay the fuck out of it as he can't save it - nobody on Hollywood can) because too many people will be sticking their ideas and formulas to success ($) into it, and the end result will be average at best.
Maybe if it's on cable a couple years down the road I'll watch it, although I don't expect anything but green-screened failure.
posted by lmfsilva at 3:59 AM on April 4, 2017
Crap, this was so close on being filed under "stuff Gibson presciently wrote about".
GitS was doomed because it was a option that was burning on someones' pocket, very much like Akira will fail (and Peele should stay the fuck out of it as he can't save it - nobody on Hollywood can) because too many people will be sticking their ideas and formulas to success ($) into it, and the end result will be average at best.
Maybe if it's on cable a couple years down the road I'll watch it, although I don't expect anything but green-screened failure.
posted by lmfsilva at 3:59 AM on April 4, 2017
Wow... TIL a lot about Masamune Shirow and the Ghost in the Shell manga. Looks like I'm good with my original GitS volume as far as the manga goes. Ta, Trinity-Gehenna. (What the hell is it with people who make completely bad-ass comics following up with shallow soft core? I'm looking at you too, Grant Morrison.)
posted by infinitewindow at 5:29 AM on April 4, 2017
posted by infinitewindow at 5:29 AM on April 4, 2017
And wow, my copy doesn't even have the pages in sebastienbailard's last link.
posted by infinitewindow at 5:30 AM on April 4, 2017
posted by infinitewindow at 5:30 AM on April 4, 2017
Trinity-Gehenna In the other thread I suggested that Shirow may actually be suffering from some age related brain degeneration. Either that or he just got really lazy and decided to coast on his reputation, one or the other.
Because I agree 100% with your assessment of GitS2.
Everything Shirow has ever done suffered a bit from a combination of male gaze gratification and a certain vagueness of plot and philosophy. He wants to say deep things, but I'm still not sure if he's ever actually said anything deep or if he just says deep sounding stuff.
But in GitS2 he just went off the deep end. It's nothing but a collection of women posed to display tits, ass, or crotch in as many panels as possible with the most rambling, incoherent, stoned philosophy student 101 level "deepness" he could cram in. Is there a plot? Maybe? I think there sort of might have been. But who can find it among all the panty shots and paragraph after paragraph of quasi-mystic musings?
GitS1 had some problems, both with objectification and a semi-incoherent story and philosophy. But there was a plot, and the philosophic rambling sort of made sense.
I don't know if he just got lazy, or if he really is suffering from early onset whatever, or if it was just the Brain Eater again. But as his final attempt at something other than outright pornography, it is awful.
These days he's just drawing attractive white/Asian women being sodomized by big animalistic black men, so clearly he lost any interest in doing anything other than porn. I think maybe, in GitS2 we're seeing him basically lose interest but feel an obligation to finish what he'd started.
In any event, yeah, I highly recommend that people just give GitS2 a skip. Oh, and his tendency towards racism was starting to show up a bit in GitS2. The included in the original but cut for the American release porn scene in GitS2 also featured animalistic black men sodomizing a woman (black too in this case).
posted by sotonohito at 8:06 AM on April 4, 2017
Because I agree 100% with your assessment of GitS2.
Everything Shirow has ever done suffered a bit from a combination of male gaze gratification and a certain vagueness of plot and philosophy. He wants to say deep things, but I'm still not sure if he's ever actually said anything deep or if he just says deep sounding stuff.
But in GitS2 he just went off the deep end. It's nothing but a collection of women posed to display tits, ass, or crotch in as many panels as possible with the most rambling, incoherent, stoned philosophy student 101 level "deepness" he could cram in. Is there a plot? Maybe? I think there sort of might have been. But who can find it among all the panty shots and paragraph after paragraph of quasi-mystic musings?
GitS1 had some problems, both with objectification and a semi-incoherent story and philosophy. But there was a plot, and the philosophic rambling sort of made sense.
I don't know if he just got lazy, or if he really is suffering from early onset whatever, or if it was just the Brain Eater again. But as his final attempt at something other than outright pornography, it is awful.
These days he's just drawing attractive white/Asian women being sodomized by big animalistic black men, so clearly he lost any interest in doing anything other than porn. I think maybe, in GitS2 we're seeing him basically lose interest but feel an obligation to finish what he'd started.
In any event, yeah, I highly recommend that people just give GitS2 a skip. Oh, and his tendency towards racism was starting to show up a bit in GitS2. The included in the original but cut for the American release porn scene in GitS2 also featured animalistic black men sodomizing a woman (black too in this case).
posted by sotonohito at 8:06 AM on April 4, 2017
These days he's just drawing attractive white/Asian women being sodomized by big animalistic black men
Link?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:20 AM on April 4, 2017
Link?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:20 AM on April 4, 2017
Oh god, that's the other part of GITS I blocked out -- I picked up a Japanese copy of Man-Machine Interface at a con before anybody'd licensed it for an English release, and, uh, nope.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:22 AM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:22 AM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
He wants to say deep things, but I'm still not sure if he's ever actually said anything deep or if he just says deep sounding stuff.
Weird that you typed the exact Oxford definition of anime in here.
posted by selfnoise at 8:39 AM on April 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Weird that you typed the exact Oxford definition of anime in here.
posted by selfnoise at 8:39 AM on April 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm off to see it this evening at the behest of a friend, in 3D no less, so I'll report back if there's any good writing hidden in the third dimension.
posted by lucidium at 8:45 AM on April 4, 2017
posted by lucidium at 8:45 AM on April 4, 2017
It's like any other 3D film where there's really only one or two memorable scenes that actually utilizes it to the full extent. Also, there's the bit where Major says "I'm a robot BEEP BOOP", and that alone adds a whole 'nother dimension to your viewing experience.
posted by P.o.B. at 9:45 AM on April 4, 2017
posted by P.o.B. at 9:45 AM on April 4, 2017
Brandon Blatcher, Bing "Galgrease" if you really must.
The rest of you, go find you some Dominion Tank Police. Good silly fun.
The way he combines hand-drawn and CG elements in his later stuff is kind of interesting, but as a storyteller Shirow paeaked early, IMO.
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 10:24 AM on April 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
The rest of you, go find you some Dominion Tank Police. Good silly fun.
The way he combines hand-drawn and CG elements in his later stuff is kind of interesting, but as a storyteller Shirow paeaked early, IMO.
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 10:24 AM on April 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
I wanted to like this movie because it had Mamoru Oshii's blessing, and as far as I can tell, Black Widow is basically the Major's Western cousin. To say nothing of the appearance of the lovely and talented "Beat" Takeshi.
Actually, the casting reminded me of Machete, only where in Machete it was deliberately weird as a surprisingly effective piss-take, here it was just...weird.
Takeshi and the actor playing Saito delivering their dialogue in Japanese while everyone else speaks English (including Ma Kusanagi, who sounds like she had to learn it phonetically) reminded me of Han and Jabba speaking their own languages at each other.
Recreation of scenes from the anime got awfully labored towards the end.
I found myself worrying about little things like Takeshi's twitch (has he always had that?) and Batou's ring (symbolic of something? actor's own? why leave it on if the latter?)
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 10:48 AM on April 4, 2017
Actually, the casting reminded me of Machete, only where in Machete it was deliberately weird as a surprisingly effective piss-take, here it was just...weird.
Takeshi and the actor playing Saito delivering their dialogue in Japanese while everyone else speaks English (including Ma Kusanagi, who sounds like she had to learn it phonetically) reminded me of Han and Jabba speaking their own languages at each other.
Recreation of scenes from the anime got awfully labored towards the end.
I found myself worrying about little things like Takeshi's twitch (has he always had that?) and Batou's ring (symbolic of something? actor's own? why leave it on if the latter?)
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 10:48 AM on April 4, 2017
Takeshi has always had interesting affectations. The recreated scenes from the anime were completely stripped of meaning. Same with the characters. Who knew the Major can be taken out with a simple cattle prod.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:06 PM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by P.o.B. at 1:06 PM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Okay, I saw this. Was it a good GITS movie? No. A good movie? Also no. All the criticisms upthread and elsewhere are certainly true.
But there were things I liked. The production design was occasionally fascinating, although the building-sized holograms didn't really grab me. The costumes, the props, the vehicles, the locations, when they weren't directly copying shots from the Oshii movie, were like someone had made a film of the @Archillect twitter feed. Johansson was doing a thing with a slouched posture and a slightly stiff gait which suggested an interesting weight and muscularity. Unfortunately, it also sometimes made it look like she was having lower-back issues. Kitano Takeshi is always fun to watch. The score was good, and wisely wasn't trying to ape the Kawai soundtrack of the original (the decried remix is over the end credits)
The plot was unsatisfying and the dialog was cringeworthy. I understand the Japanese release is going to be dubbed by the main animation voice cast, and I'd almost like to see a subbed version of that, because I know my tolerance for bad writing is a lot higher in another language. The shot-for-shot copies of the 1995 film were aggravating, because the recognition took me right out of the movie, and because they went by way too fast compared to the long cuts of the original. I doubt that would be a problem for someone who didn't have the original memorized though.
Overall I can't say I'd recommend it, but I'm not completely sorry I saw it.
posted by figurant at 9:00 PM on April 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
But there were things I liked. The production design was occasionally fascinating, although the building-sized holograms didn't really grab me. The costumes, the props, the vehicles, the locations, when they weren't directly copying shots from the Oshii movie, were like someone had made a film of the @Archillect twitter feed. Johansson was doing a thing with a slouched posture and a slightly stiff gait which suggested an interesting weight and muscularity. Unfortunately, it also sometimes made it look like she was having lower-back issues. Kitano Takeshi is always fun to watch. The score was good, and wisely wasn't trying to ape the Kawai soundtrack of the original (the decried remix is over the end credits)
The plot was unsatisfying and the dialog was cringeworthy. I understand the Japanese release is going to be dubbed by the main animation voice cast, and I'd almost like to see a subbed version of that, because I know my tolerance for bad writing is a lot higher in another language. The shot-for-shot copies of the 1995 film were aggravating, because the recognition took me right out of the movie, and because they went by way too fast compared to the long cuts of the original. I doubt that would be a problem for someone who didn't have the original memorized though.
Overall I can't say I'd recommend it, but I'm not completely sorry I saw it.
posted by figurant at 9:00 PM on April 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
I wonder if anyone has analyzed the movie from a gender perspective yet. There was definitely an undercurrent to it, what with the sci-fi concept of corporations creating and owning bodies housing minds, and where consent exists within that framework.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:34 PM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 10:34 PM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
So anyone who has read the manga sequels by Masamune Shirow: are they any good? Are they worth buying and reading?
I adore the manga irrationally and entirely at odds with my political leanings. The second short set (Human Error Processing) is interesting; it focuses on Section Nine after the Major leaves and she exists mostly as a (heh) ghost except for showing up once. I am weirdly fond of Man-Machine Interface despite the intense levels of cheesecake. It is very confusing; you're essentially following a day in the life of Motoko Aramaki's life as she pursues a mystery and takes on obstacles; the philosophical things are THERE along with some interesting implications about Motoko Kusinagi (I think) but I'd recommend at least two or three rereads and an eye to the plot if you attempt it. Masamune is not holding our hands on this one. Also, knowing about isotopes suddenly became critical to understanding the denouement, which I found enjoyable but might be a bit too obscure for other people.
With all (good) versions they are worth a very close reading. There is almost always two or three layers of stuff going on, and both Masamune and those who follow in his legacy tend to not elucidate the subtleties (I would argue Oshi made the philosophical underpinnings much more obvious in the first movie, which is part of why people love it). Man Machine Interface takes this to another level as it has several Motokos all intersect with each other in the context of a complicated political plot that is never resolved, against the backdrop of Singularity.
posted by Deoridhe at 12:48 AM on April 5, 2017
I adore the manga irrationally and entirely at odds with my political leanings. The second short set (Human Error Processing) is interesting; it focuses on Section Nine after the Major leaves and she exists mostly as a (heh) ghost except for showing up once. I am weirdly fond of Man-Machine Interface despite the intense levels of cheesecake. It is very confusing; you're essentially following a day in the life of Motoko Aramaki's life as she pursues a mystery and takes on obstacles; the philosophical things are THERE along with some interesting implications about Motoko Kusinagi (I think) but I'd recommend at least two or three rereads and an eye to the plot if you attempt it. Masamune is not holding our hands on this one. Also, knowing about isotopes suddenly became critical to understanding the denouement, which I found enjoyable but might be a bit too obscure for other people.
With all (good) versions they are worth a very close reading. There is almost always two or three layers of stuff going on, and both Masamune and those who follow in his legacy tend to not elucidate the subtleties (I would argue Oshi made the philosophical underpinnings much more obvious in the first movie, which is part of why people love it). Man Machine Interface takes this to another level as it has several Motokos all intersect with each other in the context of a complicated political plot that is never resolved, against the backdrop of Singularity.
posted by Deoridhe at 12:48 AM on April 5, 2017
Well, that was actually kinda fun. I watched it with a fellow fan of the original films who was thoroughly disgusted, and another friend who I don't think has seen anything of GiTS and rather enjoyed it, though they suspected a lot of the memorable visuals were cribbed. I'm trying to decide whether that tor article is worth sharing for some background.
I went in expecting a bunch of recreated scenes smushed into a plot plucked blindly from Hollywood's PKD-lite folder and was satisfied with what I got. Like someone doing a jigsaw deliberately wrong but still sort of matching the edges up. The scenery was nicely done, and in a different movie the story almost could have gone somewhere with the themes around consent and memory. They were in such a rush to get through the checklist though it felt like the film version of a drunken napkin note.
posted by lucidium at 1:34 AM on April 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
I went in expecting a bunch of recreated scenes smushed into a plot plucked blindly from Hollywood's PKD-lite folder and was satisfied with what I got. Like someone doing a jigsaw deliberately wrong but still sort of matching the edges up. The scenery was nicely done, and in a different movie the story almost could have gone somewhere with the themes around consent and memory. They were in such a rush to get through the checklist though it felt like the film version of a drunken napkin note.
posted by lucidium at 1:34 AM on April 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh yeah, and I have to agree with Angela Chen in the first link. The "twist" was like the Platonic solid of tone deafness, it's satirical.
posted by lucidium at 2:36 AM on April 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by lucidium at 2:36 AM on April 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Paramount Blames Ghost in the Shell’s Failure on Whitewashing Controversy
posted by Artw at 6:27 AM on April 6, 2017
posted by Artw at 6:27 AM on April 6, 2017
Ouch.
‘Ghost In The Shell’ Will Lose $60 Million-Plus: Here’s Why
The bombing of Ghost In The Shell arrives at an awful time for Paramount in the wake of its $1 billion slate financing deal with Shanghai Film Group and Huahua Media going south, coupled with the fact that most of the studio’s 2016 slate outside of Arrival and Fences has tanked.
posted by Artw at 6:46 AM on April 6, 2017
‘Ghost In The Shell’ Will Lose $60 Million-Plus: Here’s Why
The bombing of Ghost In The Shell arrives at an awful time for Paramount in the wake of its $1 billion slate financing deal with Shanghai Film Group and Huahua Media going south, coupled with the fact that most of the studio’s 2016 slate outside of Arrival and Fences has tanked.
posted by Artw at 6:46 AM on April 6, 2017
Tired: Remakes of foreign films that think replacing half the cast with white people is enough to justify their existence.
Wired: Thoughtful woman-led sci fi films and dramas about black families.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:09 AM on April 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Wired: Thoughtful woman-led sci fi films and dramas about black families.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:09 AM on April 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I guess Star Trek Beyond didn't do well? Or at least made less domestically than its budget. That's a shame, I liked that one.
posted by Artw at 7:20 AM on April 6, 2017
posted by Artw at 7:20 AM on April 6, 2017
Having been told that this new GitS was semi-faithfully mimicking many of the visually memorable moments from the 1995 movie, I was watching (by means that will not contribute to box office revenue) to find out what they did with the best one. They ignored it completely, of course.
posted by sfenders at 5:23 AM on April 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by sfenders at 5:23 AM on April 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
Ghost in the Shambles: What Hollywood Continues to Fail to Learn
posted by Artw at 6:07 AM on April 21, 2017
posted by Artw at 6:07 AM on April 21, 2017
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I get the desire to see this as karmic justice, but it's just a really, really bad movie whatever casting decisions they made. It's astonishing how badly they managed to fuck it up.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:49 AM on April 3, 2017 [10 favorites]