Laz said he wished they could have suffered more.
April 10, 2017 8:57 PM Subscribe
Deadspin looks at perhaps the world's most brutal race, the Barkley Marathons.
[Barkley previously on MF: 1, 2]
[Barkley previously on MF: 1, 2]
Here's a race report from this year's only finisher, John Kelly.
This is a pretty great article on this year's race.
Brandon Stapanowich's race report.
I may be somewhat of a Barkley geek ;)
posted by maupuia at 10:42 PM on April 10, 2017 [3 favorites]
This is a pretty great article on this year's race.
Brandon Stapanowich's race report.
I may be somewhat of a Barkley geek ;)
posted by maupuia at 10:42 PM on April 10, 2017 [3 favorites]
Seconding awfurby: The film is captivating. Unexpectedly moving. Incredible subculture.
posted by asavage at 11:01 PM on April 10, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by asavage at 11:01 PM on April 10, 2017 [7 favorites]
I ended up in a Facebook argument about the Barkley last weekend. A friend was disgusted by the entire thing, particularly by the enthusiasm around something so brutally difficult. "A disgusting celebration of self-harm," she called it, and said I might as well be cheering on bulimics to purge more or bridge-jumpers to quit stalling and go for it. I was taken aback, not just because the comparison to serious mental illness felt so wildly out of place. Don't you think there's a natural human inclination to explore the edge of our mental and physical limits, I asked. Absolutely not, she replied, which is such a fundamentally different way of seeing humanity that I wasn't sure we could even keep discussing it.
posted by brozek at 4:01 AM on April 11, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by brozek at 4:01 AM on April 11, 2017 [9 favorites]
I dunno I find something stupidly masculine and dick-measurey about it, personally speaking, and literally the opposite of everything I get and want to get out of running - and I certainly think there could be potential for harm in a population (ultra runners) that is familiar with overdoing it.
However, if people wanna break out the tape measures and measure their dicks or whatever, heck if they are having a good time it's not really hurting me or anyone else. Eye-rolly at worst, niche community of passionate people pursuing their passion at best, you know?
posted by smoke at 4:43 AM on April 11, 2017 [3 favorites]
However, if people wanna break out the tape measures and measure their dicks or whatever, heck if they are having a good time it's not really hurting me or anyone else. Eye-rolly at worst, niche community of passionate people pursuing their passion at best, you know?
posted by smoke at 4:43 AM on April 11, 2017 [3 favorites]
Metafilter: A disgusting celebration of self-harm
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:32 AM on April 11, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:32 AM on April 11, 2017 [8 favorites]
The Barkley has become the reductio ad absurdum of ultra running. Although there's nothing wrong with the Barkley itself, and some of the people I've run with who've run the Barkley are the nicest people you'd want to meet. You'd never realize, until you asked them, that they would subject themselves to such a thing. And their stories are often hilarious.
I never ran the Barkley myself, but I used to run a lot of ultras until some health problems side-lined me. And it is a niche community that you are either in or you are not in. But things had already changed a lot by the time I stopped, and not for the better, by the time I stopped. When I started, this kind of running was mostly a goofy thing for people who liked to be out in the woods and push themselves. When I stopped, there was a rigid hierarchy of races everybody was "supposed" to do if they were a "serious" ultra runner. That meant Western States, Badwater or both because those races had been getting a lot of press and if you dipped one foot in a 50K you were training for Western States. Heck, why even train? Just be awesome. I would go to races and have absurd conversations with runners that went like this:
"This is my first ultra, but I'm training for Western States! I've set up a blog with running tips and lifestyle tips, and I'm looking for sponsors for my running journey! I'll be doing a 100-miler next!"
"Well that's nice. Good luck to you. This is a 50K. Maybe you should train for and do a couple 50-milers before you try a 100-miler. Just an idea."
"But I'm going to run Western States! Have you done Western States?"
"No..."
posted by lagomorphius at 5:32 AM on April 11, 2017 [18 favorites]
I never ran the Barkley myself, but I used to run a lot of ultras until some health problems side-lined me. And it is a niche community that you are either in or you are not in. But things had already changed a lot by the time I stopped, and not for the better, by the time I stopped. When I started, this kind of running was mostly a goofy thing for people who liked to be out in the woods and push themselves. When I stopped, there was a rigid hierarchy of races everybody was "supposed" to do if they were a "serious" ultra runner. That meant Western States, Badwater or both because those races had been getting a lot of press and if you dipped one foot in a 50K you were training for Western States. Heck, why even train? Just be awesome. I would go to races and have absurd conversations with runners that went like this:
"This is my first ultra, but I'm training for Western States! I've set up a blog with running tips and lifestyle tips, and I'm looking for sponsors for my running journey! I'll be doing a 100-miler next!"
"Well that's nice. Good luck to you. This is a 50K. Maybe you should train for and do a couple 50-milers before you try a 100-miler. Just an idea."
"But I'm going to run Western States! Have you done Western States?"
"No..."
posted by lagomorphius at 5:32 AM on April 11, 2017 [18 favorites]
A friend was disgusted by the entire thing, particularly by the enthusiasm around something so brutally difficult. "A disgusting celebration of self-harm," she called it
I'm guessing she is not a runner.
I constantly have to remind myself when I run that almost every runner you see on the trail is struggling with sort of pain and it is not just me having a hard time of it.
Kind of like life.
posted by srboisvert at 5:59 AM on April 11, 2017 [13 favorites]
I'm guessing she is not a runner.
I constantly have to remind myself when I run that almost every runner you see on the trail is struggling with sort of pain and it is not just me having a hard time of it.
Kind of like life.
posted by srboisvert at 5:59 AM on April 11, 2017 [13 favorites]
I was taken aback, not just because the comparison to serious mental illness felt so wildly out of place.
Not as wild as you think. When I hear about the possible health complications during a long-distance run -- your nipples might bleed! Your chafed leg skin will crack! You may piss and crap yourself during the race! -- I think "where else this might happen that dares call itself a sport?"
I'm only part-joking when I refer to marathons as unsuccessful suicide attempts.
And then people say they feel so good after a run? Yes, that's endorphins. That's your own body trying to drug you into submission So you stop inflicting pain and damage on it. It's not such a leap to compare that to people who self-injure in less socially acceptable ways.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:07 AM on April 11, 2017 [3 favorites]
Not as wild as you think. When I hear about the possible health complications during a long-distance run -- your nipples might bleed! Your chafed leg skin will crack! You may piss and crap yourself during the race! -- I think "where else this might happen that dares call itself a sport?"
I'm only part-joking when I refer to marathons as unsuccessful suicide attempts.
And then people say they feel so good after a run? Yes, that's endorphins. That's your own body trying to drug you into submission So you stop inflicting pain and damage on it. It's not such a leap to compare that to people who self-injure in less socially acceptable ways.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:07 AM on April 11, 2017 [3 favorites]
which is such a fundamentally different way of seeing humanity that I wasn't sure we could even keep discussing it.
I've felt the same in certain (online) communities - I feel like striving is something that kind of characterizes us as humans. Doesn't have to be physical to be striving but has to be hard, right?
That's not to say there's not a lot of d*ck measuring, which is lame because the great thing about foot racing is that there are always going to be people faster than you, and people slower than you. And lots of the people slower than you are going to be fit and attractive and have six packs and stuff. and I hope you enjoy that single Michelob Ultra, motherfarker, because I will be down the street drinking one double IPA after the next and eating a pizza at Your Pie.
posted by ftm at 6:08 AM on April 11, 2017 [3 favorites]
I've felt the same in certain (online) communities - I feel like striving is something that kind of characterizes us as humans. Doesn't have to be physical to be striving but has to be hard, right?
That's not to say there's not a lot of d*ck measuring, which is lame because the great thing about foot racing is that there are always going to be people faster than you, and people slower than you. And lots of the people slower than you are going to be fit and attractive and have six packs and stuff. and I hope you enjoy that single Michelob Ultra, motherfarker, because I will be down the street drinking one double IPA after the next and eating a pizza at Your Pie.
posted by ftm at 6:08 AM on April 11, 2017 [3 favorites]
My wife and I saw the documentary at Hot Docs a few years ago and I really can't recommend it highly enough.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:28 AM on April 11, 2017
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:28 AM on April 11, 2017
If you really want the pain and crazy, allow me to introduce you to Martin Strel.
posted by lagomorphius at 6:47 AM on April 11, 2017
posted by lagomorphius at 6:47 AM on April 11, 2017
[person spends years and years preparing for a race, then comes shockingly, heartbreakingly close to finishing but is DQ'd after making an error in a sleep-deprived state, finished 6 seconds over time]: dang. well that was fun. too bad. i tried hard and i wish i could have finished.
[person who doesn't run and who doesn't like runners]: i think you are stupid and the race you ran is harmful and bad
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:49 AM on April 11, 2017 [21 favorites]
[person who doesn't run and who doesn't like runners]: i think you are stupid and the race you ran is harmful and bad
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:49 AM on April 11, 2017 [21 favorites]
"A disgusting celebration of self-harm,"
That describes most marathons for me, and I love running them.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:49 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
That describes most marathons for me, and I love running them.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:49 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
WHAT ARE YOU RUNNING FROM!? THE SICKNESS IS INSIDE OF YOU!
posted by loquacious at 6:55 AM on April 11, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by loquacious at 6:55 AM on April 11, 2017 [10 favorites]
The sickness is inside... [looks to camera] all of us.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:57 AM on April 11, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:57 AM on April 11, 2017 [8 favorites]
I run and like runners (both my parents, most of my parents' friends) but I don't really classify ultras and endurance races as the same category of endeavor as my daily jogs.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:00 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:00 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
Does anybody?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:13 AM on April 11, 2017
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:13 AM on April 11, 2017
Well, I interpreted srboisvert's comment as saying that everyone on the trail is in pain and that being any kind of runner means pushing through pain, so endurance races are just more of that.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:19 AM on April 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:19 AM on April 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
[person spends years and years preparing for a race, then comes shockingly, heartbreakingly close to finishing but is DQ'd after making an error in a sleep-deprived state, finished 6 seconds over time]: dang. well that was fun. too bad. i tried hard and i wish i could have finished.
It happens at other ultras. I was at the finish at Ice Age Trail one year when somebody missed the cut-off by a couple seconds. I think they did get recorded as having finished, but they didn't get a buckle.
As far as the hurt bit: I've contended for years that longer trail races are less harmful than flat out road race marathons. There are, of course, genetic freaks who run the whole thing and finish hours ahead of everybody else. But for most participants you run, you hike, if you simply continue to keep moving forward at a steady pace and don't get lost you might even win something in your age group. It's good fun.
posted by lagomorphius at 7:21 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
It happens at other ultras. I was at the finish at Ice Age Trail one year when somebody missed the cut-off by a couple seconds. I think they did get recorded as having finished, but they didn't get a buckle.
As far as the hurt bit: I've contended for years that longer trail races are less harmful than flat out road race marathons. There are, of course, genetic freaks who run the whole thing and finish hours ahead of everybody else. But for most participants you run, you hike, if you simply continue to keep moving forward at a steady pace and don't get lost you might even win something in your age group. It's good fun.
posted by lagomorphius at 7:21 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
Okay, fair enough. Barkley is its own weird thing for a very small number of weird people, and god love 'em for it.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:21 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:21 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
Barkleys are not a race.
posted by IndigoJones at 7:28 AM on April 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by IndigoJones at 7:28 AM on April 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
Barkleys are not a race.
My bad. I forgot that it doesn't have an established course, checkpoints, and timed cut-offs. :(
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:31 AM on April 11, 2017
My bad. I forgot that it doesn't have an established course, checkpoints, and timed cut-offs. :(
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:31 AM on April 11, 2017
So this is some sort of exercise in gaining the approval of a bully disguised as a foot race? I see there is the conch but where are piggy's glasses?
posted by bdc34 at 7:32 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by bdc34 at 7:32 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
So this is some sort of exercise in gaining the approval of a bully disguised as a foot race? I see there is the conch but where are piggy's glasses?
Lord of the Flies is a bad analogy. All of the runners I've talked to who've been in the Barkley fully understand the absurdity of their situation. Nobody signs up for it by accident. Their stories are often really funny. I never want to try it.
posted by lagomorphius at 7:39 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
Lord of the Flies is a bad analogy. All of the runners I've talked to who've been in the Barkley fully understand the absurdity of their situation. Nobody signs up for it by accident. Their stories are often really funny. I never want to try it.
posted by lagomorphius at 7:39 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is all an unexpected rabbit hole for me.
I'm not naturally inclined to push myself to this degree, but I would like to be that kind of person. When I've been in situations where life has forced me to live in some kind of extreme, I've appreciated the brief glimpses into the parts of myself Robbins mentioned and liked what I've seen. To me this is like any other kind of challenge humans subject ourselves to: practicing a craft over a lifetime, pursuing religious discipleship, or other forms of physical endurance.
It's not for everyone, of course, but fortunately Laz isn't yanking people off the street and subjecting them to the marathons against their will.
posted by Tevin at 7:52 AM on April 11, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm not naturally inclined to push myself to this degree, but I would like to be that kind of person. When I've been in situations where life has forced me to live in some kind of extreme, I've appreciated the brief glimpses into the parts of myself Robbins mentioned and liked what I've seen. To me this is like any other kind of challenge humans subject ourselves to: practicing a craft over a lifetime, pursuing religious discipleship, or other forms of physical endurance.
It's not for everyone, of course, but fortunately Laz isn't yanking people off the street and subjecting them to the marathons against their will.
posted by Tevin at 7:52 AM on April 11, 2017 [4 favorites]
brozek "Don't you think there's a natural human inclination to explore the edge of our mental and physical limits, I asked."
Yes and no. I think that desire obviously exists in some people, but it also manifests more if it's socially supported. My impression is that most human cultures don't show much of it.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:21 AM on April 11, 2017
Yes and no. I think that desire obviously exists in some people, but it also manifests more if it's socially supported. My impression is that most human cultures don't show much of it.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:21 AM on April 11, 2017
I've only watched the one documentary, but it sure looks like a lot of these men have families who have to deal with the long training hours, injuries, and all the general support required by long-distance/endurance athletes. And I've worked with endurance athletes, it's intrusive and affects career growth.
It kind of feels like for every dude who needs to go do his dick-waving race, there's half a dozen or more people who have to hold his dick whether they want to or not.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:36 AM on April 11, 2017 [11 favorites]
It kind of feels like for every dude who needs to go do his dick-waving race, there's half a dozen or more people who have to hold his dick whether they want to or not.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:36 AM on April 11, 2017 [11 favorites]
Yep, those are called "crews".
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 8:38 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 8:38 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
And I've worked with endurance athletes, it's intrusive and affects career growth.
Well, people are allowed to have priorities other than "career growth", in the one brief lifespan they have.
posted by thelonius at 8:42 AM on April 11, 2017 [27 favorites]
Well, people are allowed to have priorities other than "career growth", in the one brief lifespan they have.
posted by thelonius at 8:42 AM on April 11, 2017 [27 favorites]
The main link above - the article in Deadspin - is a fine and well-written article, but I highly recommend another piece which it calls "exquisite" – Andrew Thompson's 2005 race report. Harrowing and devastatingly beautiful:
posted by koeselitz at 8:42 AM on April 11, 2017 [3 favorites]
With each passing mountain top, the cold bit in a little more, and the chill set in a little deeper. I was doing everything I could to conserve body heat given my paltry provisions. I ate everything I could spare, I drank all I could, and I tucked-in and cinched-up my sparse clothing. I increased pace to maintain circulation. I dreaded my clothing miscalculation [he wore shorts!] and couldn’t wait until camp so I could make corrections and put this chill behind me. By Book 4 I peeled off my soaked polypropylene gloves and pissed on both my hands, long and hard, in order to regain dexterity.(That bit is from the first loop, incidentally.)
posted by koeselitz at 8:42 AM on April 11, 2017 [3 favorites]
My mom and I made my dad stop running marathons. Training turned him into an asshole, and/or he'd get injured during training, making him even more of an asshole because then he couldn't run for a while and was climbing up the walls. And then just the sheer time spent on it, taking away from what little family time he had (he's a Type A in all walks of life, and has worked from home 6 days a week for my entire life). Some people can train for a marathon or longer and be totally fine and chill and re-set their other life priorities so no one gets short-changed, but my dad was not one of those people. The goal-setting and competitiveness and physical strain just made him cranky and mean. (I should note this was decades ago, before marathoning was just what you do for an encore after you finish that first 10k. It was still regarded as pretty extreme for non-elite athletes.)
I would hope the families have agency. Some people enjoy holding dicks. Some don't. In my family, we did not, so we put our feet down. But I can't speak for anyone else's households.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:45 AM on April 11, 2017 [5 favorites]
I would hope the families have agency. Some people enjoy holding dicks. Some don't. In my family, we did not, so we put our feet down. But I can't speak for anyone else's households.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:45 AM on April 11, 2017 [5 favorites]
Lyn Never: “It kind of feels like for every dude who needs to go do his dick-waving race, there's half a dozen or more people who have to hold his dick whether they want to or not.”
Somehow I'm sure there are women that have completed this course. This is the biggest thing I wish the best articles about it – which oddly all seem to be written be women – would talk about.
posted by koeselitz at 8:45 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
Somehow I'm sure there are women that have completed this course. This is the biggest thing I wish the best articles about it – which oddly all seem to be written be women – would talk about.
posted by koeselitz at 8:45 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
(And, not to harp on Andrew Thompson's piece above, but – as a former runner and a relative of runners, I totally get what some have said here, and I sighed with relief at his blunt statement: "I never trust runners. I am a hiker.")
posted by koeselitz at 8:50 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by koeselitz at 8:50 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm hopefully doing my first ultra this year (nope, not training for Western States, however a neighbor down the street went last year and really loved it). I'd love to get my body and training/orienteering to the state where I could even consider doing the Barkley. Just the same, while I'd like to get to the point of being competant enough that I could attempt to tackle that, with the time cut off at 20 miles in 12 hours that's not an overall pace I associate with running :)
That's about a 36 minute/mile pace - that initially seems insanely slow. I can compare the paces that I run at, or even the paces that I'll power walk up a steep long hill. Trying to imagine the terrain of the barkley being such that people much stronger/faster than I are forced to such rates that the average mile pace is pushing against 36 minutes/mile (and I'm assuming that there are some stretches where they can run) really is an entirely different ball game from the terrain that I have to work with. And then there's the nettles!
99% of my runs aren't pain or unpleasant in any way. Even when I'm dripping sweat in the heat (and I hate heat), pushing myself hard through a tempo or intervals it's pretty much all joy. My body loves the feeling of running fast, and I wish that my 40 year old body could handle more speed sessions. It doesn't feel like a runner's high, but more the simple joy of a small child or dog who's running. I suspect that it helps that 99% of my runs are with the dog who made me a runner.
When it's not good it pretty much means that I've moved onto my next injury. One thing that has made the injuries easier to deal with, is so far it's always a new area to get injured. So at least in my mind I can keep telling myself that I'm getting stronger, and maybe this one will be my last injury until I can just run and keep running.
I'm really looking forward to the experience of my first 50 miler. Having a giant block of time I can set aside to run, a planned route (it's on a looped course (12.5mile loop)), and aid stations! Actually, better than the aid stations will be all the other runners. Getting to see stronger/faster people, getting to run for a time with random people at a similar pace as my own. And all of us rejoicing in this disgusting celebration of self-harm :)
posted by nobeagle at 9:13 AM on April 11, 2017 [3 favorites]
That's about a 36 minute/mile pace - that initially seems insanely slow. I can compare the paces that I run at, or even the paces that I'll power walk up a steep long hill. Trying to imagine the terrain of the barkley being such that people much stronger/faster than I are forced to such rates that the average mile pace is pushing against 36 minutes/mile (and I'm assuming that there are some stretches where they can run) really is an entirely different ball game from the terrain that I have to work with. And then there's the nettles!
99% of my runs aren't pain or unpleasant in any way. Even when I'm dripping sweat in the heat (and I hate heat), pushing myself hard through a tempo or intervals it's pretty much all joy. My body loves the feeling of running fast, and I wish that my 40 year old body could handle more speed sessions. It doesn't feel like a runner's high, but more the simple joy of a small child or dog who's running. I suspect that it helps that 99% of my runs are with the dog who made me a runner.
When it's not good it pretty much means that I've moved onto my next injury. One thing that has made the injuries easier to deal with, is so far it's always a new area to get injured. So at least in my mind I can keep telling myself that I'm getting stronger, and maybe this one will be my last injury until I can just run and keep running.
I'm really looking forward to the experience of my first 50 miler. Having a giant block of time I can set aside to run, a planned route (it's on a looped course (12.5mile loop)), and aid stations! Actually, better than the aid stations will be all the other runners. Getting to see stronger/faster people, getting to run for a time with random people at a similar pace as my own. And all of us rejoicing in this disgusting celebration of self-harm :)
posted by nobeagle at 9:13 AM on April 11, 2017 [3 favorites]
I've run multiple full marathons. I understand the need to test myself and the endorphin addiction. I also understand that it's very difficult to properly train for distance running when you have a spouse and young children. Ultimately, it becomes a selfish endeavor. That's why I've scaled back to focusing on half marathons. They're easier to train for, less prone to cause injury and they take less time away from family.
posted by bwvol at 9:17 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by bwvol at 9:17 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
One woman out of 20? 100? doesn't mean that men and women are equally straining their families to do hobbies like this. The women runners I know have a hard time even training for full marathons, because long training runs (and what's become sort of a travel fetish for these races now) become a childcare problem, and if they are the healthcare provider in the family they can't afford to get hurt and not be able to work. The support just isn't there, and it isn't presumed like it is for men.
Well, people are allowed to have priorities other than "career growth", in the one brief lifespan they have.
They need to not be management or software developers, then, if they're going to check out from everything but running, which I think is actually necessary to successfully run like that. They need to have not led their partners to believe that they intend to follow a traditional-career-path career.
Because it doesn't ever seem to be "hi, nice to meet you, I'm going to mostly be running and needing insurance just fyi" it's "what if you started taking the kids to school so I can do longer runs in the morning...and also I was thinking I'd quit my job and go work at Home Depot in the afternoons so I have more time to run. You'd also need to pick the kids up." (True story, former coworker of mine. Ex-husband of hers.)
Grownups, which is a class that should include adult men, don't always get to live their wildest dreams or do all the strives when they have boring old real-world responsibilities and have chosen to have families which come with obligations. But we repeatedly celebrate men for doing this - see also the celebrity chef who sleeps 4 minutes a day, athletes wrecking their bodies and brains and then doing terrible things to their partners and children, the race to be the CEO with the most pointless rich-man quirks.
It's harmful to men, for whom it's not good enough to just go do a healthy thing in moderation, it's always gotta be exxxxtreeeeeeeme sriracha-flavored gruntracing. It's harmful to the women in their lives who are, as ever, expected to make the sandwiches and watch the kids.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:20 AM on April 11, 2017 [17 favorites]
Well, people are allowed to have priorities other than "career growth", in the one brief lifespan they have.
They need to not be management or software developers, then, if they're going to check out from everything but running, which I think is actually necessary to successfully run like that. They need to have not led their partners to believe that they intend to follow a traditional-career-path career.
Because it doesn't ever seem to be "hi, nice to meet you, I'm going to mostly be running and needing insurance just fyi" it's "what if you started taking the kids to school so I can do longer runs in the morning...and also I was thinking I'd quit my job and go work at Home Depot in the afternoons so I have more time to run. You'd also need to pick the kids up." (True story, former coworker of mine. Ex-husband of hers.)
Grownups, which is a class that should include adult men, don't always get to live their wildest dreams or do all the strives when they have boring old real-world responsibilities and have chosen to have families which come with obligations. But we repeatedly celebrate men for doing this - see also the celebrity chef who sleeps 4 minutes a day, athletes wrecking their bodies and brains and then doing terrible things to their partners and children, the race to be the CEO with the most pointless rich-man quirks.
It's harmful to men, for whom it's not good enough to just go do a healthy thing in moderation, it's always gotta be exxxxtreeeeeeeme sriracha-flavored gruntracing. It's harmful to the women in their lives who are, as ever, expected to make the sandwiches and watch the kids.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:20 AM on April 11, 2017 [17 favorites]
I'm having trouble understanding your conclusion, Lyn Never. Is there information in these articles that is informing your assumptions about the personal lives of the competitors / their families?
posted by lazaruslong at 9:24 AM on April 11, 2017
posted by lazaruslong at 9:24 AM on April 11, 2017
lazaruslong: “I'm having trouble understanding your conclusion, Lyn Never. Is there information in these articles that is informing your assumptions about the personal lives of the competitors / their families?”
Well, I don't want to speak for her, but I know that a lot of us can say the things she's saying from experience. It's true: a lot of ultra runners are single-minded to the point of basically neglecting their relationships and spiritual and emotional duties to the other human beings who are close to them. We know this because we've seen it.
I mean – for a related example, my brother used to be an ultra runner, ran multiple marathons per week, etc. Now he has a wife and three kids. Sometimes he's sheepish, saying he's just gotten lazy, but I know the truth: you just can't be a responsible adult with a job and a family and run that goddamned much. And I'm glad he took the responsible route, rather than the route where you burn your family for the sake of your athletic ambitions.
Lyn Never: “One woman out of 20? 100? doesn't mean that men and women are equally straining their families to do hobbies like this. The women runners I know have a hard time even training for full marathons, because long training runs (and what's become sort of a travel fetish for these races now) become a childcare problem, and if they are the healthcare provider in the family they can't afford to get hurt and not be able to work. The support just isn't there, and it isn't presumed like it is for men.”
Yep. I agree completely, and as far as I can tell you're right about the numbers. Women who have any kind of "obligation" – which is to say any woman with a family or even just a relationship, apparently – doesn't really have the chance to do this kind of sport. Or – it should be noted – women can be runners if they just don't have families or intensive careers. That's true of both of the women I know who are marathoners: they like doing this, they're independent, and they have their own things going on and never really wanted children anyway, and I really respect that honestly. And obviously women should be allowed to do that – to follow running, if they want, instead of stuffing all their spare time into a career. The issue is that men seem to be the only people who are really allowed to do both by being passionate full-time runners but also dragging their family through the hardship of having to support them in that.
I dug around and found this relatively good overview of women in ultra running in Runner's World:
posted by koeselitz at 9:43 AM on April 11, 2017 [8 favorites]
Well, I don't want to speak for her, but I know that a lot of us can say the things she's saying from experience. It's true: a lot of ultra runners are single-minded to the point of basically neglecting their relationships and spiritual and emotional duties to the other human beings who are close to them. We know this because we've seen it.
I mean – for a related example, my brother used to be an ultra runner, ran multiple marathons per week, etc. Now he has a wife and three kids. Sometimes he's sheepish, saying he's just gotten lazy, but I know the truth: you just can't be a responsible adult with a job and a family and run that goddamned much. And I'm glad he took the responsible route, rather than the route where you burn your family for the sake of your athletic ambitions.
Lyn Never: “One woman out of 20? 100? doesn't mean that men and women are equally straining their families to do hobbies like this. The women runners I know have a hard time even training for full marathons, because long training runs (and what's become sort of a travel fetish for these races now) become a childcare problem, and if they are the healthcare provider in the family they can't afford to get hurt and not be able to work. The support just isn't there, and it isn't presumed like it is for men.”
Yep. I agree completely, and as far as I can tell you're right about the numbers. Women who have any kind of "obligation" – which is to say any woman with a family or even just a relationship, apparently – doesn't really have the chance to do this kind of sport. Or – it should be noted – women can be runners if they just don't have families or intensive careers. That's true of both of the women I know who are marathoners: they like doing this, they're independent, and they have their own things going on and never really wanted children anyway, and I really respect that honestly. And obviously women should be allowed to do that – to follow running, if they want, instead of stuffing all their spare time into a career. The issue is that men seem to be the only people who are really allowed to do both by being passionate full-time runners but also dragging their family through the hardship of having to support them in that.
I dug around and found this relatively good overview of women in ultra running in Runner's World:
Back in the 1980s, Ann Trason didn't let fear stop her from jumping into her first ultra-distance event—the American River 50—at a time when she was one of only a couple of women running ultradistances. She saw an article about Sally Edwards, a pioneer of triathlon, running a 50-mile race and was inspired. Trason showed up to the starting line without a water bottle and with no idea how to properly fuel herself through the race... Trason went on to win 14 Western States races, twice beating all the men but one. Her course record there stood until Greenwood finally broke it in 2012. Trason set the standard that female ultrarunners still chase today—and she did it with little camaraderie or competition with other women.I wish this was something women had more of an opportunity to do. And I also wish that the behind-the-scenes – or sometimes very obvious and public – sexism of the "women are the crew helping the men who are the runners" dynamic were broken up so we could move beyond it.
"The thing that bothered me more than competing was the training, because I'd go out for runs and it'd be all guys and Ann," Trason says. "The women would all be crewing. I'd tell them to get out and run—I was embarrassed. There'd be six women helping 20 guys and Ann."
Not a lot has changed for the generations that have followed Trason.
posted by koeselitz at 9:43 AM on April 11, 2017 [8 favorites]
The phenomenon is certainly not limited to running, so I think a lot of us have personal experience. Men get to follow their bliss down all sorts of time-consuming, impractical, all-encompassing pathways with much more freedom than women and with much less social judgement.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:00 AM on April 11, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:00 AM on April 11, 2017 [11 favorites]
Thanks, koeselitz and soren_lorensen, for the follow-up. I totally agree with the larger point of:
"Men get to follow their bliss down all sorts of time-consuming, impractical, all-encompassing pathways with much more freedom than women and with much less social judgement."
That's a real issue and worthy of a post in and of itself. I guess my hangup is with the specifics from Lyn Never, things like:
"They need to not be management or software developers, then, if they're going to check out from everything but running, which I think is actually necessary to successfully run like that. They need to have not led their partners to believe that they intend to follow a traditional-career-path career. " (emphasis mine)
and
"Grownups, which is a class that should include adult men, don't always get to live their wildest dreams or do all the strives when they have boring old real-world responsibilities and have chosen to have families which come with obligations. But we repeatedly celebrate men for doing this - see also the celebrity chef who sleeps 4 minutes a day, athletes wrecking their bodies and brains and then doing terrible things to their partners and children, the race to be the CEO with the most pointless rich-man quirks.
It's harmful to men, for whom it's not good enough to just go do a healthy thing in moderation, it's always gotta be exxxxtreeeeeeeme sriracha-flavored gruntracing. It's harmful to the women in their lives who are, as ever, expected to make the sandwiches and watch the kids." (emphasis mine)
and
"It kind of feels like for every dude who needs to go do his dick-waving race, there's half a dozen or more people who have to hold his dick whether they want to or not."
I mean, there's a lot packed in there! Extracting a few:
1. These men have deceived their partners about their career path
2. These men are in the wrong career path
3. These men are not grownups
4. These men are dick waving by pursuing this race
5. Men are not able to do things in moderation but instead always extreme etc
6. Women are always expected to make the sandwiches and watch the kids.
and so on. It's certainly possible that some / all of the above apply to the people that participate in the Barkley - and there's probably a great discussion to be had around the intersection of hobbies and gender roles, sexism and gender based privilege as regards running, reward and celebratory expectations and how they divide along gender lines, and so on. I'd like to read that discussion! Let's have a post about it!
This post is about this particular race, which some folks find to be interesting because of it's differences from traditional races. Coming in with the (to me) fairly incendiary conclusions above seems like a derail.
posted by lazaruslong at 10:21 AM on April 11, 2017 [20 favorites]
"Men get to follow their bliss down all sorts of time-consuming, impractical, all-encompassing pathways with much more freedom than women and with much less social judgement."
That's a real issue and worthy of a post in and of itself. I guess my hangup is with the specifics from Lyn Never, things like:
"They need to not be management or software developers, then, if they're going to check out from everything but running, which I think is actually necessary to successfully run like that. They need to have not led their partners to believe that they intend to follow a traditional-career-path career. " (emphasis mine)
and
"Grownups, which is a class that should include adult men, don't always get to live their wildest dreams or do all the strives when they have boring old real-world responsibilities and have chosen to have families which come with obligations. But we repeatedly celebrate men for doing this - see also the celebrity chef who sleeps 4 minutes a day, athletes wrecking their bodies and brains and then doing terrible things to their partners and children, the race to be the CEO with the most pointless rich-man quirks.
It's harmful to men, for whom it's not good enough to just go do a healthy thing in moderation, it's always gotta be exxxxtreeeeeeeme sriracha-flavored gruntracing. It's harmful to the women in their lives who are, as ever, expected to make the sandwiches and watch the kids." (emphasis mine)
and
"It kind of feels like for every dude who needs to go do his dick-waving race, there's half a dozen or more people who have to hold his dick whether they want to or not."
I mean, there's a lot packed in there! Extracting a few:
1. These men have deceived their partners about their career path
2. These men are in the wrong career path
3. These men are not grownups
4. These men are dick waving by pursuing this race
5. Men are not able to do things in moderation but instead always extreme etc
6. Women are always expected to make the sandwiches and watch the kids.
and so on. It's certainly possible that some / all of the above apply to the people that participate in the Barkley - and there's probably a great discussion to be had around the intersection of hobbies and gender roles, sexism and gender based privilege as regards running, reward and celebratory expectations and how they divide along gender lines, and so on. I'd like to read that discussion! Let's have a post about it!
This post is about this particular race, which some folks find to be interesting because of it's differences from traditional races. Coming in with the (to me) fairly incendiary conclusions above seems like a derail.
posted by lazaruslong at 10:21 AM on April 11, 2017 [20 favorites]
A lot of software developers, specifically, seem to have intense outdoor hobbies? I think you may be thinking of more serious competitors than the people I'm thinking of, though, and I certainly buy that if you do try to have a time-intensive career, a time-intensive hobby, and a family and the same time one of those things is likely to be neglected.
posted by atoxyl at 10:48 AM on April 11, 2017
posted by atoxyl at 10:48 AM on April 11, 2017
Perhaps this race has changed since I last talked to the sort of people who were running it. About ten years ago it was discussed at other "normal" ultra races in a "omg there's this crazy race nobody finishes where you have to tear pages out of books and the race director is like some kind of mean circus clown I bet I could finish it" kind of way. Now it's the pinnacle of ultra races. That's kind of a problem.
If anyone wants a taste of The Barkley with an actual marked course and nice people helping, try Lovin' The Hills in Kentucky. It's basically the same kind of terrain. A lot of Barkley runners run it as a warm-up. There are a lot of hills. I missed the cut-off one year and they still gave me my medal.
You do need a crew for a 100-miler. Although I've seen 100-mile finishers cross the line, thank the race director, drink a cup of coffee, and get in their car and drive off.
posted by lagomorphius at 11:21 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
If anyone wants a taste of The Barkley with an actual marked course and nice people helping, try Lovin' The Hills in Kentucky. It's basically the same kind of terrain. A lot of Barkley runners run it as a warm-up. There are a lot of hills. I missed the cut-off one year and they still gave me my medal.
You do need a crew for a 100-miler. Although I've seen 100-mile finishers cross the line, thank the race director, drink a cup of coffee, and get in their car and drive off.
posted by lagomorphius at 11:21 AM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
Don't you think there's a natural human inclination to explore the edge of our mental and physical limits, I asked. Absolutely not, she replied, which is such a fundamentally different way of seeing humanity that I wasn't sure we could even keep discussing it.
I think it is a fundamentally different way of seeing things. I'm not a runner but I have heard the same reactions in this thread... you're crazy, you must be a masochist, why do that to yourself, why not just stick to shorter events, must be nice to have so much free time to invest in something pointless, etc.
In my sport we joke about "type 2 fun". As in it is uncomfortable and maybe a little miserable while you are doing it, but as soon as it is over it was the greatest adventure you ever went on.
You learn a lot about yourself. It's not a macho dick waving contest to do these things at all, at least not to me. In the documentary the runners clearly have that same kind of absurdist "well guess I got myself into a pickle this time" humor about it that I recognize. I'd rather go have adventure and a real experience, even if it's uncomfortable, than spend another night watching Netflix. Some people don't get it though..
It's harmful to men, for whom it's not good enough to just go do a healthy thing in moderation, it's always gotta be exxxxtreeeeeeeme sriracha-flavored gruntracing. It's harmful to the women in their lives who are, as ever, expected to make the sandwiches and watch the kids.
You're using a narrow stereotype to paint with an awfully broad brush. I make my own sandwiches, they are delicious. I also do endurance events with plenty of badass women and people from all walks of life. Women may be better built for endurance sports actually. I would love for more women to be a part of my sport personally, they are good company before they drop me and leave me behind. And I think that maybe characterizing endurance athletes as deadbeat dads driven solely by toxic masculinity to self-harm is not really the way to go about it.
I'm going to guess you're not a type 2 fun kind of person.
posted by bradbane at 12:10 PM on April 11, 2017 [7 favorites]
I think it is a fundamentally different way of seeing things. I'm not a runner but I have heard the same reactions in this thread... you're crazy, you must be a masochist, why do that to yourself, why not just stick to shorter events, must be nice to have so much free time to invest in something pointless, etc.
In my sport we joke about "type 2 fun". As in it is uncomfortable and maybe a little miserable while you are doing it, but as soon as it is over it was the greatest adventure you ever went on.
You learn a lot about yourself. It's not a macho dick waving contest to do these things at all, at least not to me. In the documentary the runners clearly have that same kind of absurdist "well guess I got myself into a pickle this time" humor about it that I recognize. I'd rather go have adventure and a real experience, even if it's uncomfortable, than spend another night watching Netflix. Some people don't get it though..
It's harmful to men, for whom it's not good enough to just go do a healthy thing in moderation, it's always gotta be exxxxtreeeeeeeme sriracha-flavored gruntracing. It's harmful to the women in their lives who are, as ever, expected to make the sandwiches and watch the kids.
You're using a narrow stereotype to paint with an awfully broad brush. I make my own sandwiches, they are delicious. I also do endurance events with plenty of badass women and people from all walks of life. Women may be better built for endurance sports actually. I would love for more women to be a part of my sport personally, they are good company before they drop me and leave me behind. And I think that maybe characterizing endurance athletes as deadbeat dads driven solely by toxic masculinity to self-harm is not really the way to go about it.
I'm going to guess you're not a type 2 fun kind of person.
posted by bradbane at 12:10 PM on April 11, 2017 [7 favorites]
In my sport we joke about "type 2 fun".
I'm curious to learn what the other types of fun are.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:17 PM on April 11, 2017
I'm curious to learn what the other types of fun are.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:17 PM on April 11, 2017
Here's a great read that spends more time on the founder. Somehow knowing that he's actually a well-to-do accountant named Gary makes it even more frightening.
It is probably true that there are some people obsessed with a pastime who neglect their responsibilities, but others of them are using the sport as a route to mental health. It might be hard to tell (without asking) whether an ultra-runner has a family/job that is suffering because of an obsession with the sport or a family/job that is collecting the benefits of her new-found serenity. If you are the runner you have to be honest with yourself, I suppose.
Optimistically, the evolution of sport is towards increasing difficulty without increasing likelihood of self-harm. We don't accept dueling so much anymore, and what we know about long-term consequences of head injury is forcing certain other sports onto the ropes. Hopefully ultra-running culture isn't moving towards adding real danger as opposed to difficulty. This study seems to mollify concerns. However, that leaves open the question of whether the Barkleys are too dangerous--on the one hand there is a rigorous selection process, on the other there might not be enough support? Anyone with more knowledge can weigh in!
posted by TreeRooster at 12:28 PM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
It is probably true that there are some people obsessed with a pastime who neglect their responsibilities, but others of them are using the sport as a route to mental health. It might be hard to tell (without asking) whether an ultra-runner has a family/job that is suffering because of an obsession with the sport or a family/job that is collecting the benefits of her new-found serenity. If you are the runner you have to be honest with yourself, I suppose.
Optimistically, the evolution of sport is towards increasing difficulty without increasing likelihood of self-harm. We don't accept dueling so much anymore, and what we know about long-term consequences of head injury is forcing certain other sports onto the ropes. Hopefully ultra-running culture isn't moving towards adding real danger as opposed to difficulty. This study seems to mollify concerns. However, that leaves open the question of whether the Barkleys are too dangerous--on the one hand there is a rigorous selection process, on the other there might not be enough support? Anyone with more knowledge can weigh in!
posted by TreeRooster at 12:28 PM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
While the barkley has gotten more press, I don't think it's viewed as the pinnacle of ultra running. Perhaps some of the press is spinnning it as such, but I think it's more that it gets spread to be more mainstream each year. As much as I'd like to be physically and mentally able to complete the Barkley, it doesn't really sound like much fun. And I'm definitely appreciate my type-2 fun. I like to run because I like to run!
When one's talking about a 12 hour cut off for 20 miles, that's a 36 minute/mile average pace. That's insanely slow to my mind. Considering that the people who are struggling and failing to maintain this pace are by and large much stronger, skilled and fitter than I am, that really puts the terrain and locomotion into perspective. It's a hike and a climb, combined with fighting/resisting nettles while staying mentally alert enough to stay on course. But it's not a run :) .
Sure, I wouldn't mind some hard scrabble in a run, and technical terrain is fun to pick your way through when you don't end up superman'ing it. But ultimately what my preference in a running race, is all terrain that someone *could* run. And sure, as I'm not competitively going to be winning I'm good with walking the steep uphills for a 50 miler. But 95%+ of those uphills should be something that I could run with enough cardio.
TreeRooster: I think a bit part of being accepted to the Barkley is the director probably has as priority when choosing candidates 1) are skilled/smart enough to know when you can't continue / when you're getting in trouble before it's too late. 2) Might possibly be able to finish. As it doesn't look like there's been a single death attributed to it 1)'s got to feature prominently in one's acceptance request.
posted by nobeagle at 12:38 PM on April 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
When one's talking about a 12 hour cut off for 20 miles, that's a 36 minute/mile average pace. That's insanely slow to my mind. Considering that the people who are struggling and failing to maintain this pace are by and large much stronger, skilled and fitter than I am, that really puts the terrain and locomotion into perspective. It's a hike and a climb, combined with fighting/resisting nettles while staying mentally alert enough to stay on course. But it's not a run :) .
Sure, I wouldn't mind some hard scrabble in a run, and technical terrain is fun to pick your way through when you don't end up superman'ing it. But ultimately what my preference in a running race, is all terrain that someone *could* run. And sure, as I'm not competitively going to be winning I'm good with walking the steep uphills for a 50 miler. But 95%+ of those uphills should be something that I could run with enough cardio.
TreeRooster: I think a bit part of being accepted to the Barkley is the director probably has as priority when choosing candidates 1) are skilled/smart enough to know when you can't continue / when you're getting in trouble before it's too late. 2) Might possibly be able to finish. As it doesn't look like there's been a single death attributed to it 1)'s got to feature prominently in one's acceptance request.
posted by nobeagle at 12:38 PM on April 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
My buddy Jamil did it this year... last year, he managed to complete the "Fun Run," but this year, he came in a few minutes short. Pretty insane, given that dude is a multiple time Hardrock finisher.
To prepare for next year, he's planning on doing a million ft of climbing between now and then...
(Side note... I've done Western States and it is AMAZING.)
posted by ph00dz at 12:44 PM on April 11, 2017 [4 favorites]
To prepare for next year, he's planning on doing a million ft of climbing between now and then...
(Side note... I've done Western States and it is AMAZING.)
posted by ph00dz at 12:44 PM on April 11, 2017 [4 favorites]
Right, nobeagle. I guess there is hardly any comparison with the "all-comer" events I'm familiar with, where there are ambulances and SAG wagons and people reminding you to drink!
posted by TreeRooster at 12:50 PM on April 11, 2017
posted by TreeRooster at 12:50 PM on April 11, 2017
Here is a good interview with this year's finisher, John Kelly (who mistakenly refers to the Barkley as a race -- he apparently did not get the memo!). One thing he mentions that is really interesting is that part of his training involved doing things that were "intentionally disastrous" like getting lost in the woods and having to find his way out. It was his way of building the mental strength of not giving up when things went bad, and putting himself in a position where things were not entirely in his control.
This year's almost finisher, Gary Robbins, is an extraordinary human being, even more so than your typical Canadian. He and his wife were both runners when they started dating and he was involved in ultra running and adventure racing long before they met. That damn duplicitous Gary!
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 1:29 PM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
This year's almost finisher, Gary Robbins, is an extraordinary human being, even more so than your typical Canadian. He and his wife were both runners when they started dating and he was involved in ultra running and adventure racing long before they met. That damn duplicitous Gary!
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 1:29 PM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm curious to learn what the other types of fun are.
Type 1, experiences that are pleasurable in and off themselves. Disneyland, watching Netflix in a snuggie, eating the entire pizza.
Type 2, an experience worth doing but not necessarily pleasurable while doing it. In retrospect, totally worth it. Backpacking, running a marathon, an adventure.
Type 3, experiences that sound like a good idea but are terrible while doing them and embarrassing or traumatizing to think about in retrospect. Shipwreck, failed arctic expedition, lost and no help coming.
The Barkley is crazy but it's no shipwreck.
posted by bradbane at 1:32 PM on April 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
Type 1, experiences that are pleasurable in and off themselves. Disneyland, watching Netflix in a snuggie, eating the entire pizza.
Type 2, an experience worth doing but not necessarily pleasurable while doing it. In retrospect, totally worth it. Backpacking, running a marathon, an adventure.
Type 3, experiences that sound like a good idea but are terrible while doing them and embarrassing or traumatizing to think about in retrospect. Shipwreck, failed arctic expedition, lost and no help coming.
The Barkley is crazy but it's no shipwreck.
posted by bradbane at 1:32 PM on April 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
koeselitz: Unfortunately it looks like there has not yet been a woman finisher. Wikipedia lists the 18 finishers (between 1995 and 2017) - none of the names look female. I seem to recall that there was at least a woman finisher for the fun run but don't immediately see a list of just fun run finishers.
The very fact that it's not unusual for there to be 0 finishers in a year cements in my head that it's the reductio ad absurdum of ultrarunning rather than the pinnacle.
bradbane: The difference between type 2 and type 3 seems largely rely upon luck (i.e. shipwreck) and/or hind sight. So potentially a Barkley attempt could go quickly to type 3. Heck, the 2005 winner report as quoted above, had to urinate on his hands to get the dexterity to open the book to take their page/lap number. That's a small slip in the snow when no one else notices to a head injury and a quick slumber into hypothermia.
Not that I'm trying to bring up how dangerous the Barkley could be, but rather trying to think up / request a new category for 3 which isn't just type 2 fun that ran into some bad luck.
posted by nobeagle at 1:50 PM on April 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
The very fact that it's not unusual for there to be 0 finishers in a year cements in my head that it's the reductio ad absurdum of ultrarunning rather than the pinnacle.
bradbane: The difference between type 2 and type 3 seems largely rely upon luck (i.e. shipwreck) and/or hind sight. So potentially a Barkley attempt could go quickly to type 3. Heck, the 2005 winner report as quoted above, had to urinate on his hands to get the dexterity to open the book to take their page/lap number. That's a small slip in the snow when no one else notices to a head injury and a quick slumber into hypothermia.
Not that I'm trying to bring up how dangerous the Barkley could be, but rather trying to think up / request a new category for 3 which isn't just type 2 fun that ran into some bad luck.
posted by nobeagle at 1:50 PM on April 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think the best description of the Barkley is probably voluntary SEAL training. One of the finishers in the documentary, John Fegyveresi, is not known as a particularly fast runner. He's just an endurance guy who can go for a long, long time. It's why many of the more successful folks come from backpacking/hiking backgrounds rather than marathon backgrounds.
I would be really interested to see how well Kilian Jornet could do at the Barkley.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 1:56 PM on April 11, 2017
I would be really interested to see how well Kilian Jornet could do at the Barkley.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 1:56 PM on April 11, 2017
My buddy Jamil did it this year... last year, he managed to complete the "Fun Run,"
That is awesome. Tell him I was really worried for him last year... He seems like a really nice, cool guy.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 2:32 PM on April 11, 2017 [4 favorites]
That is awesome. Tell him I was really worried for him last year... He seems like a really nice, cool guy.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 2:32 PM on April 11, 2017 [4 favorites]
koeselitz: Somehow I'm sure there are women that have completed this course. This is the biggest thing I wish the best articles about it – which oddly all seem to be written be women – would talk about.
There have been no women finishers.
I'm on the fringes of the local ultra community. (Aside: yes, go Jamil! Too bad you seem to have Barkley-induced narcolepsy in various forms...) I've gone on group runs with them, volunteered at aid stations and to sweep at races of various lengths including hundred milers. So I know a number of ultrarunners, and was even supposed to do my own first 55k in February. (I ended up sidelined for--ironically non-running-related--injury and health reasons. Antelope Canyon 2018, I'll be gunning for you as soon as I finish this cycle of PT...)
Anyway, I'm surprised at some of the comments here. I know plenty of women who run ultras, although Barkley is sui generis and attracts a very special breed of person, so I can't say I know any women who have done it. In general, I find the ultra community to be very laid back, consisting mostly of people who just love being out on the trails. I know men who crew for their wives/girlfriends and aren't runners themselves, couples who are both runners and bring their kids to events. Single people of any gender. Runners who stick to the 50k-ish zone, those who do 50-milers, others who run 100s, or timed races like Across The Years. People who prefer flat or rolling terrain, others who seek out as much vertical as they can find and stand. I've literally never
I'm not saying the kind of dick-waving and gendered dynamics people are discussing doesn't exist, but I associate it much more with road marathoners or triathletes than ultrarunners.
posted by Superplin at 2:50 PM on April 11, 2017 [11 favorites]
There have been no women finishers.
I'm on the fringes of the local ultra community. (Aside: yes, go Jamil! Too bad you seem to have Barkley-induced narcolepsy in various forms...) I've gone on group runs with them, volunteered at aid stations and to sweep at races of various lengths including hundred milers. So I know a number of ultrarunners, and was even supposed to do my own first 55k in February. (I ended up sidelined for--ironically non-running-related--injury and health reasons. Antelope Canyon 2018, I'll be gunning for you as soon as I finish this cycle of PT...)
Anyway, I'm surprised at some of the comments here. I know plenty of women who run ultras, although Barkley is sui generis and attracts a very special breed of person, so I can't say I know any women who have done it. In general, I find the ultra community to be very laid back, consisting mostly of people who just love being out on the trails. I know men who crew for their wives/girlfriends and aren't runners themselves, couples who are both runners and bring their kids to events. Single people of any gender. Runners who stick to the 50k-ish zone, those who do 50-milers, others who run 100s, or timed races like Across The Years. People who prefer flat or rolling terrain, others who seek out as much vertical as they can find and stand. I've literally never
I'm not saying the kind of dick-waving and gendered dynamics people are discussing doesn't exist, but I associate it much more with road marathoners or triathletes than ultrarunners.
posted by Superplin at 2:50 PM on April 11, 2017 [11 favorites]
From here:
Kim is one of the eight female runners this year. No woman has ever finished the race, though they continue to sign up each year. I ask one woman if she felt like it was possible for a female to finish. She says she doesn’t think it is. I ask a lot of women the same question, and, to my astonishment, they all agree, citing the physical limitations of a woman’s stride and build. Laz explains that the top male runners in the world finish the race with only minutes to spare. The most recent finisher — Jared Campbell in 2014 (no one finished in 2015) — came in just six minutes before the 60-hour cutoff. Laz says women just aren’t fast enough. Yet still, against all odds, a handful of brave souls were willing to give it a shot.posted by jcruelty at 3:17 PM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
Heather Anderson currently holds (or at least very recently held) the record for FKT self-supported hike on the Appalachian Trail.
I honestly think a woman could finish Barkley. You'll see a serious challenge in the next ten years, I'm sure of it.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 3:52 PM on April 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
I honestly think a woman could finish Barkley. You'll see a serious challenge in the next ten years, I'm sure of it.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 3:52 PM on April 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
Heather Anderson currently holds (or at least very recently held) the record for FKT self-supported hike on the Appalachian Trail.
Yeah, Heather holds self-supported records for Appalachian, Pacific Crest and Arizona trails. That's records for both men and women. She's run Barkley 4 times now, but hasn't got further than into the 3rd loop. This year she bailed on the second loop. I think she's got a serious chance of finishing also. But absolutely everything needs to go right!
I read an interview recently with Laz, where he said he thought thru-hikers have the best chance at Barkley. So she's got that!
posted by maupuia at 4:06 PM on April 11, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yeah, Heather holds self-supported records for Appalachian, Pacific Crest and Arizona trails. That's records for both men and women. She's run Barkley 4 times now, but hasn't got further than into the 3rd loop. This year she bailed on the second loop. I think she's got a serious chance of finishing also. But absolutely everything needs to go right!
I read an interview recently with Laz, where he said he thought thru-hikers have the best chance at Barkley. So she's got that!
posted by maupuia at 4:06 PM on April 11, 2017 [3 favorites]
brozek "Don't you think there's a natural human inclination to explore the edge of our mental and physical limits, I asked."
I think there is, and that some people follow it to exploring 'how long can I go without eating' or 'how thin can I be without dying'. I don't see why you have trouble following that chain to mental illness.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 4:17 PM on April 11, 2017
I think there is, and that some people follow it to exploring 'how long can I go without eating' or 'how thin can I be without dying'. I don't see why you have trouble following that chain to mental illness.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 4:17 PM on April 11, 2017
I'm really shocked by some of the attitudes here. I have mental health issues. I have harmed myself and starved myself, etc. People doing this kind of event do not seem the least bit like this to me. Maybe other people are drawing on their own experiences with self harm, and that's why they're seeing it here. But at the very least it's a broad assumption to be making. To me it's the slipperiest of slopes. We don't need to pathologize people whose priorities don't line up with ours.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 4:29 PM on April 11, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 4:29 PM on April 11, 2017 [15 favorites]
yea, I have mental health issues, I've done not eating, self-harm, and running. I see a pretty strong link.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 4:32 PM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 4:32 PM on April 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
I guess what bothers me about drawing a link to mental health is that in this thread it's in among various condemnations of these people, and it reads like another of many condemnations. We may infer that these people are driven to self harm, to abandon their families, to be all around awful men in a dick-measuring contest, all based on the fact of their participation in this event. Not just this event! Marathons in general. Your nipples bleed! How could a sane person willingly endure that?
My mom is 69. She was training to do a 50km hike this Spring. She was going to do it because she likes hiking and because it was a fun challenge. She did it last year and had a great time. It's no Barkley, but when I've mentioned it to people, they've said "oh, your mom would love this article about this insane ultra marathon!" Because I guess they see some similarities in how it involves pushing your limits. She denies it, but I know my mom wants to push herself for the sake of it, because she knows she won't be able to do stuff like this forever. It means something to her to continue doing this kind of hike as long as she can.
She just had to cancel this year because she ended up going to the hospital after one of her training hikes. She was diagnosed with pneumonia and they discovered that she has cancer.
So I promised her that we'll do it together when she gets better. For both of us it will be a test of endurance, of what we're capable of. Someone could say that it's some latent need to punish ourselves, and maybe on some level that's right. Maybe you could analyze my psychology and say that I feel this need to push myself to make up for the fact that I live so far away from my mom, that I'm not there to care for her, or for any number of issues (I have plenty). Can you come to that conclusion based only on the fact that I intend to participate, because no sane person would hike 50km? After all, my feet will bleed, I'll get blisters, and my knees will be killing me for days afterward. Why subject myself to that?
It's not that I think there's no conversation to be had. But I'm seeing an awful lot of painting with an exceedingly broad brush in this thread. There are always going to be people who hurt their families in the name of career, status, money, etc. There will always be people who push themselves for the wrong reasons, out of fear or obsession, or whatever. Running is certainly no different, which means that there will always be the asshole who places unreasonable demands on his family for the sake of pushing his limits. There's also going to be my friend who started running to get sober, or my friend who just likes running marathons when she's on summer break from teaching. We don't know why anyone does anything, and that applies to people who, for whatever reason, want to push themselves as hard as they can. Blanket statements about them will never be fair one way or the other.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 5:10 PM on April 11, 2017 [13 favorites]
My mom is 69. She was training to do a 50km hike this Spring. She was going to do it because she likes hiking and because it was a fun challenge. She did it last year and had a great time. It's no Barkley, but when I've mentioned it to people, they've said "oh, your mom would love this article about this insane ultra marathon!" Because I guess they see some similarities in how it involves pushing your limits. She denies it, but I know my mom wants to push herself for the sake of it, because she knows she won't be able to do stuff like this forever. It means something to her to continue doing this kind of hike as long as she can.
She just had to cancel this year because she ended up going to the hospital after one of her training hikes. She was diagnosed with pneumonia and they discovered that she has cancer.
So I promised her that we'll do it together when she gets better. For both of us it will be a test of endurance, of what we're capable of. Someone could say that it's some latent need to punish ourselves, and maybe on some level that's right. Maybe you could analyze my psychology and say that I feel this need to push myself to make up for the fact that I live so far away from my mom, that I'm not there to care for her, or for any number of issues (I have plenty). Can you come to that conclusion based only on the fact that I intend to participate, because no sane person would hike 50km? After all, my feet will bleed, I'll get blisters, and my knees will be killing me for days afterward. Why subject myself to that?
It's not that I think there's no conversation to be had. But I'm seeing an awful lot of painting with an exceedingly broad brush in this thread. There are always going to be people who hurt their families in the name of career, status, money, etc. There will always be people who push themselves for the wrong reasons, out of fear or obsession, or whatever. Running is certainly no different, which means that there will always be the asshole who places unreasonable demands on his family for the sake of pushing his limits. There's also going to be my friend who started running to get sober, or my friend who just likes running marathons when she's on summer break from teaching. We don't know why anyone does anything, and that applies to people who, for whatever reason, want to push themselves as hard as they can. Blanket statements about them will never be fair one way or the other.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 5:10 PM on April 11, 2017 [13 favorites]
I have no desire to ever do Barkley, but I love intense physical challenges that are at the edge of my abilities. Doing something I wasn't sure I was capable feels amazing, and if I fail, it's the best motivation to learn more and train more. Someday I want to do an Iron Man Triathlon (2.4 mile swim, 112 bike, 26mi run) and I'm pretty sure I will be able to do it, but I won't know until it happens and it will still push the limits of my abilities.
For all the people attempting Barkley, there's not much out there in terms of running that they don't know they can do. There's a limit to how long races are, for the most part, and most people shift goals to improving their PR, but (to my mind), that's different and most of the time, shaving minutes or seconds off isn't nearly as satisfying.
Laz is offering this one event that no matter how good you are, how well-trained and prepared you are, you will almost certainly fail. Running faster and working harder aren't what you do to improve your PR, it's what you have to do just to have a chance at finishing. If you do finish, whether it's the whole thing, or a fun run, or a loop, it matters because it is pushing the limits of what you're capable of.
A really close friend picked up running as an adult, after hating and avoiding it their whole life. One of my best memories is running with them for their first 5k and it was the first race they'd ever done, and they had never imagined they could or would ever do anything like that. (And now they're doing a half-marathon, so who knows how far they'll go.)
posted by raeka at 5:39 PM on April 11, 2017 [4 favorites]
For all the people attempting Barkley, there's not much out there in terms of running that they don't know they can do. There's a limit to how long races are, for the most part, and most people shift goals to improving their PR, but (to my mind), that's different and most of the time, shaving minutes or seconds off isn't nearly as satisfying.
Laz is offering this one event that no matter how good you are, how well-trained and prepared you are, you will almost certainly fail. Running faster and working harder aren't what you do to improve your PR, it's what you have to do just to have a chance at finishing. If you do finish, whether it's the whole thing, or a fun run, or a loop, it matters because it is pushing the limits of what you're capable of.
A really close friend picked up running as an adult, after hating and avoiding it their whole life. One of my best memories is running with them for their first 5k and it was the first race they'd ever done, and they had never imagined they could or would ever do anything like that. (And now they're doing a half-marathon, so who knows how far they'll go.)
posted by raeka at 5:39 PM on April 11, 2017 [4 favorites]
One thing he mentions that is really interesting is that part of his training involved doing things that were "intentionally disastrous" like getting lost in the woods and having to find his way out.
That's quite interesting. One time when I was considering how exactly one would train for something like The Barkley my parents were living in a house way up in the Alleghenies, so my idea would have been to go visit them for a week or two and every day go crashing through the woods off trail for a couple of hours and try to find my way back.
posted by lagomorphius at 6:16 PM on April 11, 2017
That's quite interesting. One time when I was considering how exactly one would train for something like The Barkley my parents were living in a house way up in the Alleghenies, so my idea would have been to go visit them for a week or two and every day go crashing through the woods off trail for a couple of hours and try to find my way back.
posted by lagomorphius at 6:16 PM on April 11, 2017
I watched the documentary on Netflix. I love that they pick a sacrificial lamb who is totally unqualified every year and throw them into the meat-grinder.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:48 PM on April 11, 2017
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:48 PM on April 11, 2017
I have a friend who's done the Barkley Fall Classic! (The little sibling of the real thing.) She's a woman, who took up running about 3 years ago, when she was about 45ish. Her kids had gone to college, she was mid-career-change, and caring for a grandparent with dementia. She'd go out early in the morning or late in the evening while her husband stayed with the grandparent. She started at a mile, and then 5K, and then 10K, and then a marathon, and then she started on INSANE ULTRAS. She didn't finish the fall classic but she loooooooved it. She just finished a local 100K.
She is a relatively intense personality who falls madly in love with things and does them SUPER. DEVOTEDLY. But she knows this about herself and manages them in pretty healthy ways (and is, in fact, a mental health professional). Her training partner, also a woman, has completed 50Ks although she's still working up to 100Ks, and she's not particularly obsessive; she just also was empty nesting, wanting to be healthier, and got into running.
My friend's husband has taken up running this year, after the elderly grandmother passed away and their care demands as a couple were much less, and has worked up to 10Ks training with his wife.
I do think she and her training partner are moderately insane for wanting to run 100K at a time, but there are definitely way worse ways to go about empty nesting! And they LOVE it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:53 PM on April 11, 2017 [6 favorites]
She is a relatively intense personality who falls madly in love with things and does them SUPER. DEVOTEDLY. But she knows this about herself and manages them in pretty healthy ways (and is, in fact, a mental health professional). Her training partner, also a woman, has completed 50Ks although she's still working up to 100Ks, and she's not particularly obsessive; she just also was empty nesting, wanting to be healthier, and got into running.
My friend's husband has taken up running this year, after the elderly grandmother passed away and their care demands as a couple were much less, and has worked up to 10Ks training with his wife.
I do think she and her training partner are moderately insane for wanting to run 100K at a time, but there are definitely way worse ways to go about empty nesting! And they LOVE it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:53 PM on April 11, 2017 [6 favorites]
Ok, so I starting running just over 5 years ago. At 50. Not a midlife crisis! After not really having run before, or having grudgingly run and not enjoyed it. And I totally surprised myself by finding I DID enjoy it. I can vividly remember doing my first 10km - I had thought it was impossible to run such a distance. I built up to a road half-marathon in about 6 months, and then found trails. And loved them!
And I guess I wanted to see how far I could run. So over the last few years I've built up, and have now run a few ultras - longest about 65km.
I'm not obsessive about running. I still have to often push myself out the door to run. But virtually every run, I've always felt better afterwards. And made a whole new bunch of friends. And explored places locally I'd never been to in 50 years of living here.
For me, pushing myself to go further (not faster - I'm not fast!) has been a very healthy thing in so many ways. It helps, yes, that our kids are teenagers and so the burden of caring for them isn't there as when they were younger. I'm a better person for having found running. And read pretty much any hobby for running here I think.
To bring this back to the Barkley - I ran the Barkley Fall Classic last September. It was among the best experiences of my life :)
posted by maupuia at 8:15 PM on April 11, 2017 [8 favorites]
And I guess I wanted to see how far I could run. So over the last few years I've built up, and have now run a few ultras - longest about 65km.
I'm not obsessive about running. I still have to often push myself out the door to run. But virtually every run, I've always felt better afterwards. And made a whole new bunch of friends. And explored places locally I'd never been to in 50 years of living here.
For me, pushing myself to go further (not faster - I'm not fast!) has been a very healthy thing in so many ways. It helps, yes, that our kids are teenagers and so the burden of caring for them isn't there as when they were younger. I'm a better person for having found running. And read pretty much any hobby for running here I think.
To bring this back to the Barkley - I ran the Barkley Fall Classic last September. It was among the best experiences of my life :)
posted by maupuia at 8:15 PM on April 11, 2017 [8 favorites]
As someone who's done self-injury and running, they come from and fulfill completely different parts of myself. As was apparently commented about one of my recent race photos if my tongue was hanging out of my mouth, I'd look just like running buddy; my wife's dog. *He* loves to run, purely for running and hasn't gotten to do even one race.
Nonetheless, as others mention there's a lot of people, so of course will find lots of different people. At least two of the run bloggers that I follow initially started running as companion to an eating disorder. Both of them eventually overcame their eating disorder in order to become better runners. At the same time, I agree with others that the family/self destroying stereotype fits more with what I've heard from people leaving the Tri scene moving on to ultrarunning.
maupuia : thanks for sharing the race report. As you say at the end you're re-signed up for BFC 2017 - should we be ready to cheer you on for the 2019 Barkley? :) My sister and I have been talking about eventually doing a race together, but need to plan a bit more long term. I'll try suggesting a 2020 or 2021 BFC possibility.
posted by nobeagle at 8:28 AM on April 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
Nonetheless, as others mention there's a lot of people, so of course will find lots of different people. At least two of the run bloggers that I follow initially started running as companion to an eating disorder. Both of them eventually overcame their eating disorder in order to become better runners. At the same time, I agree with others that the family/self destroying stereotype fits more with what I've heard from people leaving the Tri scene moving on to ultrarunning.
maupuia : thanks for sharing the race report. As you say at the end you're re-signed up for BFC 2017 - should we be ready to cheer you on for the 2019 Barkley? :) My sister and I have been talking about eventually doing a race together, but need to plan a bit more long term. I'll try suggesting a 2020 or 2021 BFC possibility.
posted by nobeagle at 8:28 AM on April 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
The difference between type 2 and type 3 seems largely rely upon luck (i.e. shipwreck) and/or hind sight. So potentially a Barkley attempt could go quickly to type 3.
I see the difference as mostly about testing your limits vs ignoring them. But you are right, there is an element of risk in doing any kind of adventure, even a minor one. There was just a memorial thread here on MeFi for Mike Hall a few days ago, the most accomplished ultra-distance cyclist in the world, killed by a driver during a race. Mike said about endurance events "the most prepared will be the most successful" but your luck can always run out.
If you remove ALL the risk though, then you're in Disneyland. That's not an adventure.
How could a sane person willingly endure that?
How can a sane person willingly endure a passive life of work and consumption?
When I'm back in my little 68 degree climate cooled profit making box being a good little worker bee, that's what I think about. How I wish I were cold and exhausted and shivering in a space blanket in a ditch in the middle of the night because at least I was pretty sure I was actually alive & sane in that moment.
Back here in the 'real world', where the suggestion of enduring any discomfort for the sake of any unprofitable challenge is a sign you're crazy, I'm not so sure.
posted by bradbane at 1:26 PM on April 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
I see the difference as mostly about testing your limits vs ignoring them. But you are right, there is an element of risk in doing any kind of adventure, even a minor one. There was just a memorial thread here on MeFi for Mike Hall a few days ago, the most accomplished ultra-distance cyclist in the world, killed by a driver during a race. Mike said about endurance events "the most prepared will be the most successful" but your luck can always run out.
If you remove ALL the risk though, then you're in Disneyland. That's not an adventure.
How could a sane person willingly endure that?
How can a sane person willingly endure a passive life of work and consumption?
When I'm back in my little 68 degree climate cooled profit making box being a good little worker bee, that's what I think about. How I wish I were cold and exhausted and shivering in a space blanket in a ditch in the middle of the night because at least I was pretty sure I was actually alive & sane in that moment.
Back here in the 'real world', where the suggestion of enduring any discomfort for the sake of any unprofitable challenge is a sign you're crazy, I'm not so sure.
posted by bradbane at 1:26 PM on April 12, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's interesting you posit the Barkleys as opposite to some kind of capitalist sisyphean hell, bradbane, because I actually put them on the same spectrum.
Why do the Barkleys have so much cachet? Because they're really, really hard. Why do we venerate struggle and effort?
There's something very Protestant work ethic about it. The nobility of striving for striving's sake.
posted by smoke at 3:59 PM on April 12, 2017
Why do the Barkleys have so much cachet? Because they're really, really hard. Why do we venerate struggle and effort?
There's something very Protestant work ethic about it. The nobility of striving for striving's sake.
posted by smoke at 3:59 PM on April 12, 2017
My experience over 25+ years of office jobs is that struggle and effort aren't venerated. Or maybe they're given lip service when it comes to the small handful of hotshots, but for the average working person? No. What's wanted by one's employers is the ability to arrive on time and sit in a cube for 8+ hours quietly doing what you're told to do.
I think if you asked the people I work with whether they see similarities between our work and the Barkleys, they'd either blink at you in befuddlement ("what are the Barkleys?") or fall over laughing ("you think this is comparable to trying to stay mentally on top of things while engaging in strenuous physical effort? whaaaat?").
posted by Lexica at 4:47 PM on April 12, 2017
I think if you asked the people I work with whether they see similarities between our work and the Barkleys, they'd either blink at you in befuddlement ("what are the Barkleys?") or fall over laughing ("you think this is comparable to trying to stay mentally on top of things while engaging in strenuous physical effort? whaaaat?").
posted by Lexica at 4:47 PM on April 12, 2017
I can't really speak to why other people do these races, but for a guy like me -- a boring office worker by day -- these are epic adventures, structured enough that they're "safe," but challenging enough that they require real effort and training. Pain is just the price of admission. There's something magical about that feeling of having run for 18 straight hours, knowing that even though it's the middle of the night, I've still got six hours of forward momentum left to go.
Now that I have a toddler, I've had to tone it down quite a bit... you know, responsibilities and all that, but I look forward to the day when he's at the finish line cheering me on.
posted by ph00dz at 6:25 PM on April 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
Now that I have a toddler, I've had to tone it down quite a bit... you know, responsibilities and all that, but I look forward to the day when he's at the finish line cheering me on.
posted by ph00dz at 6:25 PM on April 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
I somewhat find it offensive that some people seem to think that doing things like this equates to mental illness in such a negative sense as to compare it to having an eating disorder. I don't doubt that there are people who get obsessed with things in a negative manner (and definitely people that have a bit more privilege to be obsessed with things), but to pathologize anyone who does these things is irresponsible and dangerous. How about the people who do these things as a way of dealing with trauma? I don't think I've seen anyone mention that aspect in this thread. I know plenty of people who do athletic and endurance things in a healthy, enthusiastic manner as a way of dealing with trauma (including people who previously had eating disorders) and I think it'd be very offensive and have a negative impact on them if somebody were to deride them for that. I know for a fact that my father, after having been in Vietnam, took off to stay in the woods of Oregon for a few months after unsuccessfully looking for another way to re-adapt to society. It was extremely beneficial for him, and his eventual therapist said it was probably his first step to recovering from PTSD. Being an ex-SEAL, who was an expert at orienteering (and suffered a traumatic event due to his orienteering), he would have loved to have done the Barkley if it existed when he was in better shape.
With that said, I'm really glad this was posted, because I've been thinking about this for the past couple of weeks but couldn't remember the name of it. I didn't realize there was a documentary and I'm gonna have to watch it.
posted by gucci mane at 7:35 AM on April 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
With that said, I'm really glad this was posted, because I've been thinking about this for the past couple of weeks but couldn't remember the name of it. I didn't realize there was a documentary and I'm gonna have to watch it.
posted by gucci mane at 7:35 AM on April 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
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