Afghanistan ride. How to enter, survive and return in one piece.
May 13, 2017 4:47 PM Subscribe
"Me and Izi have started small adventure company this year. We have started too late and all people has asked us about 2010 ;)
This story begun when one journalist has called me and asked about Afganistan tour. - Have you been there? I have heard you intend to take people for Afganistan? Is this true?
Well, we have seen Afganistan and road to Wakhan from other bank of Pyanzh but we have not been there. No clients this year, why not take a little ride to Afghanistan just for fun?"
I remember when that ride report was posted. Most ride reports are terribly boring, but there have been a few amazingly good ones over the years that hit that magic intersection of good writing, good photos, and great pacing. This one, about a ride through Angola in 2007, is another.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:54 PM on May 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 7:54 PM on May 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
That is amazing! Thanks so much for posting! Just spent 3 hours reading through it all. I may now be looking at adventure tours to Afghanistan & Tajikistan.
In reading to the end, I found he posted a video of the trip and one in memory of his riding partner who died a little after this trip. Both next on my viewing list. I'd forgotten how much I love this stuff!
posted by maupuia at 11:22 PM on May 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
In reading to the end, I found he posted a video of the trip and one in memory of his riding partner who died a little after this trip. Both next on my viewing list. I'd forgotten how much I love this stuff!
posted by maupuia at 11:22 PM on May 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
Just to report that the video of the trip I linked to is wonderful and worth the 20 mins to watch it!
posted by maupuia at 12:33 AM on May 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by maupuia at 12:33 AM on May 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Sorry for one more post, but that second video is even better!
posted by maupuia at 1:03 AM on May 14, 2017
posted by maupuia at 1:03 AM on May 14, 2017
I promise I'm not trying to derail this, but it's sort of unavoidable to ask this -- is this one of those things men get to do, and women can only do if they accept much more risk?
Because I love shit like this. And now that my personal life and health is starting to maybe sort itself out, things like this might be an option. But I never see this addressed. There are just these happy posts from dudes, possibly completely unaware that that ability to just go somewhere with not zero risk, but with immense privilege, is not shared by everybody. And it makes me both sad and angry. Like it's not on these people to change the world, but if you're posting stuff because you want to show people it can be done or you want to encourage them to make similar trips, acknowledging how it might be different for women and what that might entail is maybe not too much to ask.
I haven't gone through the whole thing yet, so maybe they do. But I opened it and it was just that familiar sinking feeling of like...ah yes, of course, another thing definitely not meant for me.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:03 AM on May 14, 2017 [7 favorites]
Because I love shit like this. And now that my personal life and health is starting to maybe sort itself out, things like this might be an option. But I never see this addressed. There are just these happy posts from dudes, possibly completely unaware that that ability to just go somewhere with not zero risk, but with immense privilege, is not shared by everybody. And it makes me both sad and angry. Like it's not on these people to change the world, but if you're posting stuff because you want to show people it can be done or you want to encourage them to make similar trips, acknowledging how it might be different for women and what that might entail is maybe not too much to ask.
I haven't gone through the whole thing yet, so maybe they do. But I opened it and it was just that familiar sinking feeling of like...ah yes, of course, another thing definitely not meant for me.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:03 AM on May 14, 2017 [7 favorites]
Just got to a comment in the thread related to that:
"I think I am responsible, not crazy or insane - so I deceided to ride without passanger. I prefer to ride alone and share my impression from trip with woman (or women) when I return. "
So yes, I think they're aware it'd be a lot more difficult to do the trip as a woman, or even with one as a passenger.
I have been following the adventures of a guy called Ed March on a moped and his partner has now done her own solo bike adventures : http://wanderonahonda.co.uk . I think part of why they decided to travel separately is he has a higher appetite for risk, possibly that is more common which is why these types of adventures tend to be more male dominated.
posted by JonB at 6:40 AM on May 14, 2017
"I think I am responsible, not crazy or insane - so I deceided to ride without passanger. I prefer to ride alone and share my impression from trip with woman (or women) when I return. "
So yes, I think they're aware it'd be a lot more difficult to do the trip as a woman, or even with one as a passenger.
I have been following the adventures of a guy called Ed March on a moped and his partner has now done her own solo bike adventures : http://wanderonahonda.co.uk . I think part of why they decided to travel separately is he has a higher appetite for risk, possibly that is more common which is why these types of adventures tend to be more male dominated.
posted by JonB at 6:40 AM on May 14, 2017
I think part of why they decided to travel separately is he has a higher appetite for risk, possibly that is more common which is why these types of adventures tend to be more male dominated.
Uh...no. It's that women face more risk. Not that they have less of an appetite for risk. Honestly that's...I mean, I'm trying to be charitable, here, but that's maybe not a great takeaway when men don't face the constant menace of sexual violence just by being alone in large swathes of the world.
It's not just travel. There was an article a while ago about the dangers facing female war correspondents, and how they are largely just ignored. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.
We don't have less of an appetite for risk. Just to do things that men do, we have to have more of an appetite for risk. And we can't even get accurate information about how to mitigate those risks, because the people writing about these things never bother to consider how things might be different for us. Even female travel writers don't write about it, for all the reasons you might expect.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:47 AM on May 14, 2017 [7 favorites]
Uh...no. It's that women face more risk. Not that they have less of an appetite for risk. Honestly that's...I mean, I'm trying to be charitable, here, but that's maybe not a great takeaway when men don't face the constant menace of sexual violence just by being alone in large swathes of the world.
It's not just travel. There was an article a while ago about the dangers facing female war correspondents, and how they are largely just ignored. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.
We don't have less of an appetite for risk. Just to do things that men do, we have to have more of an appetite for risk. And we can't even get accurate information about how to mitigate those risks, because the people writing about these things never bother to consider how things might be different for us. Even female travel writers don't write about it, for all the reasons you might expect.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:47 AM on May 14, 2017 [7 favorites]
Not looking for an argument, just thought you might find the blog of a woman doing solo bike adventures as interesting as I did.
posted by JonB at 6:56 AM on May 14, 2017
posted by JonB at 6:56 AM on May 14, 2017
I have been breathlessly clicking through these; thanks for the link.
To your critique, schadenfrau: I hear what you're saying, that these guys ability to do this is an example of male privilege and not acknowledging that is as well. On the other hand, going through the pictures, as I have, there was a woman, I think in the German group of bikers, and at least some of the commentators on the forum are also. I struggle with your criticism because on Metafilter, the best practice is usually: if you're not into and FPP, that's OK, but you don't need to comment or take it down a peg. However, what you're saying is: you ARE into it, but it makes you sad and angry because for a woman to do this trip, she'd have to assume much more risk. That is undeniably true. And as you say, you're not suggesting these bikers solve all the ills of the world. I guess the question is, would you rather these not be posted, because you feel that it's not possible for you to personally do this trip without undue risk? Because I'm a man, but there is literally absolutely no way I could do this trip, financially or medically, but I still spent 90 minutes going through the whole thing and being amazed at the insight into Central Asia, without feeling even for a second that I was going to be able to do this trip. Maybe that's also privelege, not having to consider that I'd be at risk taking the trip, but in this case the posts seem insightful and fascinating and the right out of the gate take where it's less good because three dudes did it and also awful sexism persists, seems to take the wind out of its sails. I guess you are just asking for the guy on AVrider to acknowledge the risk.
I also don't think every post needs to be for every person. There're FPPs up right now about postpartum depression and apartment shopping. As a childless broke man, neither of these things is even a little bit relevant to me, but I'm not going into the thread saying, "Is this one of those things women/wealthy people get to do?" These are both things not meant for me, and that's OK! I want to be crystal clear that I'm not going, "But what about MEN'S rights?" and "Why isn't there a STRAIGHT pride parade" or anything. I'm just saying I think it's possible to look at these photos of this part of the world without feeling disempowered because you personally can't make this pilgrimage (I certainly can't). It's like, we've had posts on mountain climbing that aren't worse in my opinion just because there isn't a discussion of the fact that these trips aren't accessible to people who use wheelchairs.
I dunno. I expect my opinion is unpopular and I do not intend it as a diss or even to invalidate your concerns, which are legitimate. I just think that one nice thing about Metafilter is the breadth of the types of posts, and this window into something I know I could never do was lovely, and I'd rather these experiences be shared even if they aren't accessible to all of us.
posted by andromache at 6:57 AM on May 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
To your critique, schadenfrau: I hear what you're saying, that these guys ability to do this is an example of male privilege and not acknowledging that is as well. On the other hand, going through the pictures, as I have, there was a woman, I think in the German group of bikers, and at least some of the commentators on the forum are also. I struggle with your criticism because on Metafilter, the best practice is usually: if you're not into and FPP, that's OK, but you don't need to comment or take it down a peg. However, what you're saying is: you ARE into it, but it makes you sad and angry because for a woman to do this trip, she'd have to assume much more risk. That is undeniably true. And as you say, you're not suggesting these bikers solve all the ills of the world. I guess the question is, would you rather these not be posted, because you feel that it's not possible for you to personally do this trip without undue risk? Because I'm a man, but there is literally absolutely no way I could do this trip, financially or medically, but I still spent 90 minutes going through the whole thing and being amazed at the insight into Central Asia, without feeling even for a second that I was going to be able to do this trip. Maybe that's also privelege, not having to consider that I'd be at risk taking the trip, but in this case the posts seem insightful and fascinating and the right out of the gate take where it's less good because three dudes did it and also awful sexism persists, seems to take the wind out of its sails. I guess you are just asking for the guy on AVrider to acknowledge the risk.
I also don't think every post needs to be for every person. There're FPPs up right now about postpartum depression and apartment shopping. As a childless broke man, neither of these things is even a little bit relevant to me, but I'm not going into the thread saying, "Is this one of those things women/wealthy people get to do?" These are both things not meant for me, and that's OK! I want to be crystal clear that I'm not going, "But what about MEN'S rights?" and "Why isn't there a STRAIGHT pride parade" or anything. I'm just saying I think it's possible to look at these photos of this part of the world without feeling disempowered because you personally can't make this pilgrimage (I certainly can't). It's like, we've had posts on mountain climbing that aren't worse in my opinion just because there isn't a discussion of the fact that these trips aren't accessible to people who use wheelchairs.
I dunno. I expect my opinion is unpopular and I do not intend it as a diss or even to invalidate your concerns, which are legitimate. I just think that one nice thing about Metafilter is the breadth of the types of posts, and this window into something I know I could never do was lovely, and I'd rather these experiences be shared even if they aren't accessible to all of us.
posted by andromache at 6:57 AM on May 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
This reminded me—because I read it so recently—of Dervla Murphy's Full Tilt, which relates her solo trip, mostly by (single-speed) bicycle, from Ireland to India in 1963 as a woman in her early thirties. She spends a big chunk of the book on Afghanistan, which, IIRC, is her favorite of the countries she traverses. Of course, 1963 Afghanistan was a very different place than 2009 Afghanistan, but it was hardly free of danger.
posted by enn at 7:13 AM on May 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by enn at 7:13 AM on May 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
However, what you're saying is: you ARE into it, but it makes you sad and angry because for a woman to do this trip, she'd have to assume much more risk. That is undeniably true. And as you say, you're not suggesting these bikers solve all the ills of the world. I guess the question is, would you rather these not be posted, because you feel that it's not possible for you to personally do this trip without undue risk?
Yeah that's basically the crux of it: these are things I've always wanted to do, but these resources clearly aren't for me.
And not every post is for everyone, but here on MeFi people frequently point out when something is exclusionary and unaware of it. I don't think this critique is inappropriate, because the content itself is exclusionary by virtue of ignoring the difference. You post something that's exclusionary, you should probably expect someone to be like, hey, this excludes me in a pretty shitty way. It's a front page reminder that much of the wide wonder of the world is not meant for women, because of how we're treated, even if that's not the intent.
And the comments of this post seem like the perfect place to post resources that DO take this into account, if you can find them (I've never had much luck -- like a blog post here or there, but always for a general audience, never the kind of thing where it's women talking to other women about how to be safe and what actually happens).
There's an essay in King Kong Theory by Virginie Despentes that basically posits rape as the price women pay for participation in the world. That's the reality we have to deal with. It's weird, alienating, and, yes, marginalizing to have that ignored.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:22 AM on May 14, 2017 [6 favorites]
Yeah that's basically the crux of it: these are things I've always wanted to do, but these resources clearly aren't for me.
And not every post is for everyone, but here on MeFi people frequently point out when something is exclusionary and unaware of it. I don't think this critique is inappropriate, because the content itself is exclusionary by virtue of ignoring the difference. You post something that's exclusionary, you should probably expect someone to be like, hey, this excludes me in a pretty shitty way. It's a front page reminder that much of the wide wonder of the world is not meant for women, because of how we're treated, even if that's not the intent.
And the comments of this post seem like the perfect place to post resources that DO take this into account, if you can find them (I've never had much luck -- like a blog post here or there, but always for a general audience, never the kind of thing where it's women talking to other women about how to be safe and what actually happens).
There's an essay in King Kong Theory by Virginie Despentes that basically posits rape as the price women pay for participation in the world. That's the reality we have to deal with. It's weird, alienating, and, yes, marginalizing to have that ignored.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:22 AM on May 14, 2017 [6 favorites]
I hear you and I don't think your comment was inappropriate. This in particular:
the comments of this post seem like the perfect place to post resources that DO take this into account
is spot-on. That is maybe what I disagreed with about your first comment, that it was a undercutting the topic at hand but it didn't offer an alternative. But what I now understand you are saying is, there aren't many places where women share these kinds of travel tips, so all you can do is voice your dissent at the shitty state of affairs where reasonable fear of sexual violence proscribes all kinds of adventures, including exciting motorbike trips through Afghanistan.
There's an essay in King Kong Theory by Virginie Despentes that basically posits rape as the price women pay for participation in the world.
Brutally grim.
posted by andromache at 7:48 AM on May 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
the comments of this post seem like the perfect place to post resources that DO take this into account
is spot-on. That is maybe what I disagreed with about your first comment, that it was a undercutting the topic at hand but it didn't offer an alternative. But what I now understand you are saying is, there aren't many places where women share these kinds of travel tips, so all you can do is voice your dissent at the shitty state of affairs where reasonable fear of sexual violence proscribes all kinds of adventures, including exciting motorbike trips through Afghanistan.
There's an essay in King Kong Theory by Virginie Despentes that basically posits rape as the price women pay for participation in the world.
Brutally grim.
posted by andromache at 7:48 AM on May 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
The question of safety for women travelers comes up a lot, even if in a dude-centric report like this it only shows up in the margins. There are women doing these trips, though in much smaller numbers than the men, as well as couples and mixed groups. In addition to the obvious online discussions, I have seen advertisements for seminars and workshops on solo motorcycle travel for women; it's a Thing, even if it is a small and peripheral thing in the big picture.
There are definitely women who are doing it, but their existence doesn't mean that it is something that is fully accessible to all. I agree that it is always worth noticing and questioning what makes this kind of trip possible for some people and harder (or impossible) for others -- gender, visa/passport issues, disabilities, finances... I don't think it detracts from the pleasure of reading these narratives to maintain an awareness
posted by Dip Flash at 8:17 AM on May 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
There are definitely women who are doing it, but their existence doesn't mean that it is something that is fully accessible to all. I agree that it is always worth noticing and questioning what makes this kind of trip possible for some people and harder (or impossible) for others -- gender, visa/passport issues, disabilities, finances... I don't think it detracts from the pleasure of reading these narratives to maintain an awareness
posted by Dip Flash at 8:17 AM on May 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
There are a lot of legendary women who were motorcycle tourers. One that comes to mind is Bessie Stringfield. All of motorcycling is pretty male heavy, but there are plenty of awesome counterexamples.
posted by Maxwell's demon at 11:04 AM on May 14, 2017
posted by Maxwell's demon at 11:04 AM on May 14, 2017
The biggest problem I have with these guys is that they appear to be sex tourists. Not OK.
posted by Maxwell's demon at 1:07 PM on May 14, 2017
posted by Maxwell's demon at 1:07 PM on May 14, 2017
they appear to be sex tourists
What makes you say that?
There might be something in the videos, or that I missed in the thread, but I did not get that impression at all.
posted by Spiegel at 1:43 PM on May 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
What makes you say that?
There might be something in the videos, or that I missed in the thread, but I did not get that impression at all.
posted by Spiegel at 1:43 PM on May 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
The biggest problem I have with these guys is that they appear to be sex tourists.
Unless you know something that's not in either of the videos, or any of the photos, or any of the commentary for the photos, that's an extremely long bow to draw.
posted by maupuia at 1:53 PM on May 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Unless you know something that's not in either of the videos, or any of the photos, or any of the commentary for the photos, that's an extremely long bow to draw.
posted by maupuia at 1:53 PM on May 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
The part about the business woman and her two young daughters? Maybe I am reading too much into it.
posted by Maxwell's demon at 2:12 PM on May 14, 2017
posted by Maxwell's demon at 2:12 PM on May 14, 2017
I also felt that the comment about the daughters was somewhat in poor taste, but that is pretty far from being sex tourists. If I remember correctly they had breakfast with the daughters and their mother, and then went on their way.
posted by Spiegel at 2:19 PM on May 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Spiegel at 2:19 PM on May 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
I also felt that the comment about the daughters was somewhat in poor taste, but that is pretty far from being sex tourists. If I remember correctly they had breakfast with the daughters and their mother, and then went on their way.
That's what they described happening, yes. I read it as a deliberately bro-tastic play to his audience (largely mid-life white guys, of course) -- remember, he is writing the ride report partly as entertainment, but it also functions as an advertisement for his business, which is guiding motorcycle trips: "we organize tailor-made motorcycle tours in Asia, Africa and South America."
There have been other ride reports I can remember which openly crossed into sex tourism, but more common is what you see here, lower key comments and sometimes photos of attractive women as part of the travel experience. It's not present in all narratives, and while it mostly works well with their audience there is also sometimes push-back.
I am reminded of the FPP the other week about the vanlife people, and the ways in which they constructed images which their audience wanted to see -- there is the same kind of feedback loop in these ride reports, with the successful ones finding the right narratives and images to keep people reading.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:47 PM on May 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
That's what they described happening, yes. I read it as a deliberately bro-tastic play to his audience (largely mid-life white guys, of course) -- remember, he is writing the ride report partly as entertainment, but it also functions as an advertisement for his business, which is guiding motorcycle trips: "we organize tailor-made motorcycle tours in Asia, Africa and South America."
There have been other ride reports I can remember which openly crossed into sex tourism, but more common is what you see here, lower key comments and sometimes photos of attractive women as part of the travel experience. It's not present in all narratives, and while it mostly works well with their audience there is also sometimes push-back.
I am reminded of the FPP the other week about the vanlife people, and the ways in which they constructed images which their audience wanted to see -- there is the same kind of feedback loop in these ride reports, with the successful ones finding the right narratives and images to keep people reading.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:47 PM on May 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yeah, even if we read it more charitably, it still contributes to the perception that motorcycle riding is for dudes. Personally, I find riding a motorcycle thousands of miles is a really powerful form of therapy, and I wish as many people as possible would try it.
posted by Maxwell's demon at 3:20 PM on May 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Maxwell's demon at 3:20 PM on May 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
6 Women Adventure Riders Who Ride The World Solo, including the amazing Tiffany Coates, who blogs extensively and leads expeditions everywhere.
(I know her personally, so trying not to shill)
posted by gregglind at 5:10 PM on May 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
(I know her personally, so trying not to shill)
posted by gregglind at 5:10 PM on May 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
I like seeing all the small, inexpensive bikes in your link, gregglind. Another thing you don't need to go adventuring is a $20000 1200 cc BMW. Another favorite story of mine is the woman who rode her Vespa from SF to New York
posted by Maxwell's demon at 6:35 PM on May 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Maxwell's demon at 6:35 PM on May 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
I have heard also about Overland Expo as a way of connecting to these sorts of adventures.
(I do long distance adventure running, and there are tons of awesome women there too!)
posted by gregglind at 7:53 PM on May 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
(I do long distance adventure running, and there are tons of awesome women there too!)
posted by gregglind at 7:53 PM on May 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
the perfect place to post resources that DO take this into account
Not really resources, schadenfreude, but in the spirit of encouragement: I remember that a former colleague of mine would buzz around with a bunch of female aidworker bikers up in the Charikar plains north of Kabul back in the late noughties; a good friend of mine used to work up in Taloqan and Badakhshan, way in the north east, and would occasionally ride in local informal buzkashi (albeit it in happier times); another rode in the '05 Mazar buzkashi taking photos. My impression was that being female didn't exclude someone from doing these things, although there were certainly limitations and you're right, they apply differently and more lightly to men. Certainly these women were all way more, ah, ballsy than I. For me, it was more that you earnt the right to take risks by being there and figuring out the environment enough to calibrate the risks, be you man or woman.
posted by YouRebelScum at 12:50 PM on May 15, 2017 [1 favorite]
Not really resources, schadenfreude, but in the spirit of encouragement: I remember that a former colleague of mine would buzz around with a bunch of female aidworker bikers up in the Charikar plains north of Kabul back in the late noughties; a good friend of mine used to work up in Taloqan and Badakhshan, way in the north east, and would occasionally ride in local informal buzkashi (albeit it in happier times); another rode in the '05 Mazar buzkashi taking photos. My impression was that being female didn't exclude someone from doing these things, although there were certainly limitations and you're right, they apply differently and more lightly to men. Certainly these women were all way more, ah, ballsy than I. For me, it was more that you earnt the right to take risks by being there and figuring out the environment enough to calibrate the risks, be you man or woman.
posted by YouRebelScum at 12:50 PM on May 15, 2017 [1 favorite]
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Yikes. I can only imagine...
Also, not just the photos but also the medium here is wonderful. I miss forums like this.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 4:59 PM on May 13, 2017 [1 favorite]