April 28, 2002

3:09 PM

Israel refuses the UN factfinding mission, as if anyone ever had any doubts about a government that has consistently refused any third party monitoring, fact finding, or international observers, in any aspect of the conflict with its Palestinian neighbors. In doing so, Ariel Sharon's government yells out once more its disdain for international public opinion, and kicks yet another attempt at establishing an impartial view of the situation in the balls. If Israel acted in rightful self-defence in Jenin, then a UN fact finding mission could only confirm this state of affairs, now couldn't it? How long will we all stand by and watch this happen over and over again? Can we be critical of Israel without being labelled anti-semitic? Does the Holocaust provide permanent immunity from compliance with international law to the state of Israel? If as a white Christian I feel anger and frustration, what should my muslim brothers in other parts of the world feel? Am I surprised that some of them resort to dispicable means to make their point?
posted by coyroy (26 comments total)

On a somewhat related note:

"Until recently, the administration had contemplated a possible confrontation with Mr. Hussein this fall, after building a case at the United Nations that the Iraqi leader is unwilling to allow the kind of highly intrusive inspections needed to prove that he has no weapons of mass destruction." [ Full Article ]
posted by Stuart_R at 3:47 PM on April 28, 2002

Israel sent officials to U.N. headquarters in New York on Thursday to press the world body to change the nature of the team.

Sounds like they just want qualified people (who aren't necessarily swayed by politics) to conduct the fact finding mission.
posted by Yelling At Nothing at 3:48 PM on April 28, 2002

Once you decide that Israel is Wrong etc then you will discount anything they say or do. Hold your scorn and try this, from the Washibngton Post, on why Israel dislikes the crew that is to evaluate. After reading, then re-think what you have written:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51318-2002Apr25.html
posted by Postroad at 3:51 PM on April 28, 2002

Didn't a US government observer describe what went down in Jenin as an atrocity as well? There was something about it on CNN the other day.
posted by donkeyschlong at 3:58 PM on April 28, 2002

If as a white Christian I feel anger and frustration, what should my muslim brothers in other parts of the world feel?

Good question. This article describes how Christian pessimism and radical Islam are "blowing up the world." He doesn't really talk about Islam, but shows how the wrong Christian perspective is dominant in our society, and how it possibly contributes to the problem.

Does the Holocaust provide permanent immunity from compliance with international law to the state of Israel?

Of course not, and remember that not all Israelis are Jewish. The wrongs done to your forefathers does not give you the right to victimize others. Of course, the same goes for the Palestinians, but in this Greek tragedy, neither side wants to stop the endless cycle of blood-vengeance.
posted by insomnyuk at 4:00 PM on April 28, 2002

The whole world can't be wrong? Try this
http://www.israelmybeloved.com/news/our_view/020421_kofi_annan.htm
posted by Postroad at 4:05 PM on April 28, 2002

I had forgot: Powell had said there was no atrocity.No American has said there has been one. But why not wait till remarks one way or the other are based on facts? Why not allow Israel to get a team from the UN to come there unless the UN is afraid that a skilled team, in part ok'd by Israel might show they are wrong. Just the facts,mam.
posted by Postroad at 4:07 PM on April 28, 2002

CNN's de-prioritization of this piece is absolutely astounding - I'm unable to find a link to it on the main page, or anywhere else. The election in Mali is breaking, important world news, and this isn't?
posted by poorhaus at 5:03 PM on April 28, 2002

Further, that Washington Post article is damned sketchy, appallingly incomplete, and entirely unconvincing. If the Post wishes to discredit the entire fact-finding team, then I'd like to hear more about every member of the team, and why all of them are unqualified for the job. Anecdotal evidence that one member has a beef with the Israeli red cross is hardly sufficient to justify the refusal of the team's entry into Jenin. Nor is it sufficient for Israel to say they don't want the team to come in because it may make them look bad.

I think this may be a turning point for a lot of previously-neutral western leaders to change their tune on Israel, and start pressuring Dubya to bloody well do something about it. Not that I think Dubya should be the custodian of world peace, but seeing as how the UN is a bloated, castrated, irrelevant miasma of diplomatic self-absorption, we are left with little choice of white knights.
posted by poorhaus at 5:17 PM on April 28, 2002

The USA as "White Knight"? That's a lark.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:43 PM on April 28, 2002

Israel has become a rogue state. And the U.S. politicians are choosing for us to be complicit, gravely damaging what remains of our international credibility. Given that there is no obvious economic motivation for this, one has to wonder why.
posted by rushmc at 6:10 PM on April 28, 2002

Powell had said there was no atrocity

He actually said so far there is no evidence of an atrocity. As in, so far a qualified team has not given confirmation that something outside the realm of regular fighting happened there.

Israel asking for different members of the team is a red herring, it's only there to give a semi-plausible excuse for their inexcusable actions on this matter. They simply don't want to be held up for scrutiny in their 'war on terrorism' which has been revelealed by a great many sources (America, Israeli, and European) to actually a be a war on a Palestinian state, with terrorist-fighting thrown in for good measure.
posted by chaz at 6:41 PM on April 28, 2002

Israel did not ask for a diffferent team. Begin by getting facts right. They asked that some military men,experienced in war, be sent along with the others. Now if you think the refugee camp was just a place where civilians got slaughtered, check this out:
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27422
Israel is a rogue state? And Iran,Syrian, Iraq, Saudi Arabia--all financing terror groups?
posted by Postroad at 7:12 PM on April 28, 2002

There is a theory attributed to nazi propaganda minister Goebbels: anything repeated often enough would be at some point accepted by people as fact.

Some people keep repeating the same accusations regardless of information to the contrary. I'm beginning to think it's just a ruse to frustrate well meaning folks into submission.

Let me offer again the testimony of Palestinian bomb-maker Omar, quoted extensively in Al-Ahram (Egypt) Weekly:

"We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the [Jenin] camp. We chose old and empty buildings and the houses of men who were wanted by Israel because we knew the soldiers would search for them," he said. "We
cut off lengths of mains water pipes and packed them with explosives and nails. Then we placed them about four meters apart throughout the houses -- in cupboards, under sinks, in sofas... the women went out to tell the
soldiers that we had run out of bullets and were leaving. The women alerted the fighters as the soldiers reached the booby-trapped area..."

13 Israeli soldiers were killed before they decided to try different tactics.
posted by semmi at 8:08 PM on April 28, 2002

Israel is a rogue state? And Iran,Syrian, Iraq, Saudi Arabia--all financing terror groups?

I'm not too high on them, either, but the status of one nation is independent of the status of the others.
posted by rushmc at 8:18 PM on April 28, 2002

"Israel is a rogue state? And Iran,Syrian, Iraq, Saudi Arabia--all financing terror groups?"

The US finances Israel. By example that makes the US a rogue state.
posted by adnanbwp at 9:34 PM on April 28, 2002

"13 Israeli soldiers were killed before they decided to try different tactics."

One army invades an area, and u expect the invaded to just sit with their hands under their butts ? If Russian army had attacked US, the US army would have fought back. The only difference is Palestinians dont have an official army.
posted by adnanbwp at 9:37 PM on April 28, 2002

If Israel acted in rightful self-defence in Jenin, then a UN fact finding mission could only confirm this state of affairs, now couldn't it?

coyroy, only if you trust the UN as a truly unbiased observer. When one considers in toto the history of their relationship, it's very easy to see why Israel might not have full confidence in that view, and since they are already in many ways an international pariah, there is little to be lost from exercising their sovereignty rights under the Charter in this case.
posted by dhartung at 9:59 PM on April 28, 2002

Once you decide that Israel is Wrong etc then you will discount anything they say or do. [postroad]

Absolutely true, and well-demonstrated here. Allow me to contribute a corollary, equally well-demonstrated: Once you decide that Palestine is Wrong etc then you will discount anything they say or do.

Fair 'nuff?

I continue to be bewildered that anyone here thinks they're going to change anyone else's mind about who's Wrong in this situation. We're all working from the same data: news reports, all of which are biased to one side or another, and all of which are further obfuscated by the security and/or propaganda needs of the various participants and sources. In other words, we're all clueless, and blowing smoke.
posted by ook at 11:05 PM on April 28, 2002

I'm getting this so far from this thread (regardless of side one be on):

What do we want?

Peace!

When do we want it?

Now!

Unfortunately it's not in our hands. Our leaders will not ever personally face the carnage each and every one of us in the grovelling class could, might and are facing. They will decide when a pyrotechnic Middle East is less in their favor. Perhaps, maaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnny more will die and generations will pass (Fastforwarded past, VCR-like, on the order of billions of frames) before a much slimmed down and subterranean human populous decides to implement such a peaceful ideological livelihood.
posted by crasspastor at 11:35 PM on April 28, 2002

Not "billions" of generations=frames. But billions of lives=frames.
posted by crasspastor at 11:41 PM on April 28, 2002

I don't have anything new to add to the argument, but I do appreciate the falling stock of the UN. It is time to put that sour thing to sleep.

Oh Yeah. U.S. money out of the Middle East!
posted by thirteen at 12:37 AM on April 29, 2002

Powell never went to Jenine, how would ne know what went on?
posted by delmoi at 3:56 PM on April 29, 2002

A proper investigation of human rights in a chaotic situation like the fighting in Jenin is going to take a lot of work! Treating this situation superficially, as if it's a daily news crisis, belittles the careful and thorough efforts needed to collect testimony and piece it together. The UN is not the only organization capable of doing this work. With patience and persistence, the facts will eventually emerge. Consider Tlateloco 1968-- people figured that one out eventually. It's not like every Israeli or Palestinian present in Jenin has sworn everlasting silence on the subject. If "barefoot epidemiologists" can track down toxic chemical problems by going door-to-door, it's certainly possible to figure out more or less what happened in Jenin, given that an awful lot of people survived.

(Brief digression / request for info: if anyone has good links or input on the elections in Mali, I'd be interested to read it.)
posted by sheauga at 8:58 PM on April 29, 2002

The US finances Israel. By example that makes the US a rogue state.

Actually, it makes us a Machiavellian world power dedicated to perceived self-interest rather than justice for all.
posted by rushmc at 3:31 PM on April 30, 2002

Israel refuses U.N. factfinding mission rightly so. This is especially true when it's indirectly proclaimed that Israel is guilty until proven guilty.

First of all, the team in its original makeup, consisted of those who could only be partial...just like the U.N. themselves show bias against Israel repeatedly since it became an independent country in 1948.

Any nation has the right to be consulted as to the composition of an investigatory team. Since this was a military operation, it is proper for the nation being investigated to request a team which would consist of military and counterterrorism experts. This would assist in an impartial investigation.

I wish the original post would give the other side. What about the U.N. allowing the refugee camps to become a haven for terrorists and bomb factories? International public opinion and its media are generally against Israel. Can't you understand the disdain? Do you believe that Arafat entered "Oslo" in good faith?

Yes, you can critique Israel without being considered anti-semitic as long as you hold them to the same standards as other independent nations.

The Holocaust provides you with a snapshot in history that should never be repeated.
posted by jacques67 at 7:14 PM on April 30, 2002