The end of the "kinder, gentler," Reddit.
May 25, 2017 8:03 AM Subscribe
Imzy, the "kinder, gentler" Reddit alternative (previously), is shutting down on June 23rd. The site raised an $8 million Series A in October 2016, and opened its platform up to the public that same month.
According to The Verge article on the shutdown, less-friendly Reddit clone Voat is also at risk of being shut down due to funding issues.
Behold the power of network effects.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:07 AM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:07 AM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
I thought reddit was already the kinder, gentler 4chan.
posted by CaseyB at 8:10 AM on May 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by CaseyB at 8:10 AM on May 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
That just leaves Voat, the "meaner, more racist" Reddit
posted by leotrotsky at 8:11 AM on May 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 8:11 AM on May 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
I thought reddit was already the kinder, gentler 4chan.
It really isn't. It just does a slightly better job at sectioning it off. There's a behind-the-scenes fracas going on where the people behind bigoted subreddits have effectively managed to bully site mods (and occasionally other subreddit mods) into falling in line.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:14 AM on May 25, 2017 [18 favorites]
It really isn't. It just does a slightly better job at sectioning it off. There's a behind-the-scenes fracas going on where the people behind bigoted subreddits have effectively managed to bully site mods (and occasionally other subreddit mods) into falling in line.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:14 AM on May 25, 2017 [18 favorites]
leotrotsky: For now. They might have to shut down for lack of funds, as per: voat.co/v/announcements/1866053
(Fuck if I'm linking to that shithole. Copy and paste.)
posted by SansPoint at 8:17 AM on May 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
(Fuck if I'm linking to that shithole. Copy and paste.)
posted by SansPoint at 8:17 AM on May 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
8 million bucks sounds like an awful lot of money to have wasted... wonder what they spent it on.
posted by ph00dz at 8:45 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by ph00dz at 8:45 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
So that’s ~$1million / month. How many people were they employing ?! Or were they one of those companies that manages to burn $1million / month on AWS charges because they have no idea how to keep a lid on their AWS costs?
posted by pharm at 8:53 AM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by pharm at 8:53 AM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I know that from day one, Imzy seemed more like a platform that was designed for the sort of viral Facebook style sharing of stories than it was designed for real human beings to actually have conversations there, and the conversations were the whole reason to go there instead of getting the same content from Reddit. I didn't last long. Metafilter is a good place to talk to people, and I want to note that I don't want the Blue to change at all, but I don't want a chat room, and yet I do want something more conversational without the same concerns about whether or not the original post is Significant.
But the reason I don't need a chat room is that I've instead started doing an awful lot of my online conversation via a couple fandom-related Discord servers. I don't like how hard they are for new people to stumble into, but I am learning to appreciate spending part of my social time in a garden with a high fence. It's so much more relaxed than I was ever able to be on even the more progressive parts of Reddit.
posted by Sequence at 8:57 AM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
But the reason I don't need a chat room is that I've instead started doing an awful lot of my online conversation via a couple fandom-related Discord servers. I don't like how hard they are for new people to stumble into, but I am learning to appreciate spending part of my social time in a garden with a high fence. It's so much more relaxed than I was ever able to be on even the more progressive parts of Reddit.
posted by Sequence at 8:57 AM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
pharm, TechCrunch says: "According to a source, the co-founders only recently came to the decision to shut down and wanted to do so with plenty of cash still in the bank — so they may have something else in the works. We’ve reached out to ask and will let you know if and when we hear back about that."
To which I can only give a very concerned side-eye to the Imzy founders...
posted by SansPoint at 8:58 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
To which I can only give a very concerned side-eye to the Imzy founders...
posted by SansPoint at 8:58 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Haven't even heard of it, which is likely the problem. If I have a question on how something works, the first google answer usually comes from a site like CreativeCOW or Ableton Forum, but the second or third are often from Reddit with a gazillion users where someone might be into exactly the same niches. Twitter and Tumblr are good on the go for different things (breaking news on twitter, eye candy on tumblr). Facebook is a decent (used to be good) aggregator of content. A community where "but we're nice" is the only thing being offered ultimately doesn't have anything to offer.
I mean, I bookmarked r/soccer because if I want to see a replay of a goal, it will be there when I arrive, and to follow the opinions on the topics of the day, the community is generally more civil than most places where sports are discussed (if slightly obsessed with banter).
Still have no interest in signing up, but at least I know it's there. I didn't know what a Imzy was, other than guessing "the younger sibling of the worst olympic mascot ever?"
posted by lmfsilva at 8:58 AM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
I mean, I bookmarked r/soccer because if I want to see a replay of a goal, it will be there when I arrive, and to follow the opinions on the topics of the day, the community is generally more civil than most places where sports are discussed (if slightly obsessed with banter).
Still have no interest in signing up, but at least I know it's there. I didn't know what a Imzy was, other than guessing "the younger sibling of the worst olympic mascot ever?"
posted by lmfsilva at 8:58 AM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
because they have no idea how to keep a lid on their AWS costs?
I thought the only way to keep a lid on AWS costs was to not use AWS.
Ba-dum-bum-CHING!!
posted by sutt at 8:59 AM on May 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
I thought the only way to keep a lid on AWS costs was to not use AWS.
Ba-dum-bum-CHING!!
posted by sutt at 8:59 AM on May 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
The only reason that I still remembered that they exist is a) I put them in my bookmarks bar and b) they sent me a T-shirt.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:00 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:00 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Wow, the voat frontpage is just wow. So much entitled/racist/manbaby/whitevictim. So much.
posted by signal at 9:02 AM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by signal at 9:02 AM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I really wanted this to work, and I really wanted to join it, but a two things seemed to impede that union:
- Invites. Reddit pretty much throws the door open and that's how they get the numbers. Granted, Imzy wanted a higher class of people, but you can't have a bouncer at the door 24/7 who's too damn picky. Even Studio 54 had to let people in.
- Complicated UI. Again, reddit, and even metafilter, win here due to the extreme simplicity of the user interface. Imzy seemed too complicated and too clever and shiny for its own good. If I can't figure out what the heck is going on within a few seconds, you better have a damn good reason for that learning curve. Up arrows, down arrows, comment here. Favorite. Comment. Again, simple is a winner.
And yeah, what in the heck did they DO with all that money?
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 9:03 AM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
- Invites. Reddit pretty much throws the door open and that's how they get the numbers. Granted, Imzy wanted a higher class of people, but you can't have a bouncer at the door 24/7 who's too damn picky. Even Studio 54 had to let people in.
- Complicated UI. Again, reddit, and even metafilter, win here due to the extreme simplicity of the user interface. Imzy seemed too complicated and too clever and shiny for its own good. If I can't figure out what the heck is going on within a few seconds, you better have a damn good reason for that learning curve. Up arrows, down arrows, comment here. Favorite. Comment. Again, simple is a winner.
And yeah, what in the heck did they DO with all that money?
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 9:03 AM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
pharm, TechCrunch says: "According to a source, the co-founders only recently came to the decision to shut down and wanted to do so with plenty of cash still in the bank — so they may have something else in the works. We’ve reached out to ask and will let you know if and when we hear back about that."
To which I can only give a very concerned side-eye to the Imzy founders...
It's also entirely possible that they intend to return it to their investors. This happens sometimes in startups run by more mature people (though usually not of this size) - once it becomes clear that a start-up is never going to become profitable, the founders will wind it down and return the remaining money to their investors rather than just burn through it all. In doing so the founders send a signal to the investors that they're responsible and trustworthy stewards of funding, which makes it much more likely that those investors will fund them again for future projects.
posted by Itaxpica at 9:09 AM on May 25, 2017 [9 favorites]
To which I can only give a very concerned side-eye to the Imzy founders...
It's also entirely possible that they intend to return it to their investors. This happens sometimes in startups run by more mature people (though usually not of this size) - once it becomes clear that a start-up is never going to become profitable, the founders will wind it down and return the remaining money to their investors rather than just burn through it all. In doing so the founders send a signal to the investors that they're responsible and trustworthy stewards of funding, which makes it much more likely that those investors will fund them again for future projects.
posted by Itaxpica at 9:09 AM on May 25, 2017 [9 favorites]
Invites. Reddit pretty much throws the door open and that's how they get the numbers. Granted, Imzy wanted a higher class of people, but you can't have a bouncer at the door 24/7 who's too damn picky. Even Studio 54 had to let people in.
Should be easy to get in, but hard to stay. Tough to charge up front when you've got nothing there.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:10 AM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Should be easy to get in, but hard to stay. Tough to charge up front when you've got nothing there.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:10 AM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
>8 million bucks sounds like an awful lot of money to have wasted... wonder what they spent it on.
I don't know, but I do have 2 Imzy tshirts and some stickers... And I did little more than sign up, give out 5 invites and (irl) vote.
posted by Catblack at 9:12 AM on May 25, 2017
I don't know, but I do have 2 Imzy tshirts and some stickers... And I did little more than sign up, give out 5 invites and (irl) vote.
posted by Catblack at 9:12 AM on May 25, 2017
...so they may have something else in the works.
"People always talk about the amount of disruption, but not the quality. We're pivoting to a hyper-focused approach on providing a unique user experience of a small number of users (2) in a way that larger sites like reddit simply can't achieve (purchasing a kick-ass yacht)."
posted by Behemoth at 9:14 AM on May 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
"People always talk about the amount of disruption, but not the quality. We're pivoting to a hyper-focused approach on providing a unique user experience of a small number of users (2) in a way that larger sites like reddit simply can't achieve (purchasing a kick-ass yacht)."
posted by Behemoth at 9:14 AM on May 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
what in the heck did they DO with all that money?
Sounds like somebody didn't get their free imzy t-shirt!
posted by slater at 9:31 AM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
Sounds like somebody didn't get their free imzy t-shirt!
posted by slater at 9:31 AM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
8 million bucks sounds like an awful lot of money to have wasted... wonder what they spent it on.
They spent it on giving away pizza. Twice. They sent me an two emails for a pizza party, where they would literally just send a pizza to your house. That was kind of a big red flag for me, it made me feel like something was wrong.
https://i.imgur.com/qdrz4wR.jpg
I'm an online community nutcase, but Imzy was a really neat online community that I felt had a lot of features designed for a very active community. It was obvious that Dan and Jessica were hellbent on building their dream online community. A few things about Imzy (I'm copying from my Hubski comment):
- Imzy has a lot of features that would have been great if it had millions of users. Communities, profiles that serve as blogs, posts could be customized to either have a live chat feed or comment. Brilliant.
- Tipping moderators with money was a feature I was curious about, but I have never seen it used in my time there.
- A negative: When you clicked on a post, it shows that you "participated" in the post, with your profile icon.
- A bigger negative: There was a wide post / comment ratio in the communities I was in, and I thought I was in the more active ones. It's a huge turnoff for me since I already frequent a lot of news aggregators.
- The thing that actually drove me away: notifications for trending posts in communities. It's a pet peeve of mine, I like my notifications to actually mean something.
- There was a "Let's Grab Coffee" community that was really active and involved, talking nightly. I imagine that there was a main core of people there that I would have loved to talk to, but I didn't know anyone and it felt weird lurking because it was mostly general conversation.
- It's sad when a community goes down. Reading through the comments is really disheartening, because the users sense that there's something that they did wrong. They did nothing wrong, and their website was really cool.
posted by weewooweewoo at 9:34 AM on May 25, 2017 [9 favorites]
They spent it on giving away pizza. Twice. They sent me an two emails for a pizza party, where they would literally just send a pizza to your house. That was kind of a big red flag for me, it made me feel like something was wrong.
https://i.imgur.com/qdrz4wR.jpg
I'm an online community nutcase, but Imzy was a really neat online community that I felt had a lot of features designed for a very active community. It was obvious that Dan and Jessica were hellbent on building their dream online community. A few things about Imzy (I'm copying from my Hubski comment):
- Imzy has a lot of features that would have been great if it had millions of users. Communities, profiles that serve as blogs, posts could be customized to either have a live chat feed or comment. Brilliant.
- Tipping moderators with money was a feature I was curious about, but I have never seen it used in my time there.
- A negative: When you clicked on a post, it shows that you "participated" in the post, with your profile icon.
- A bigger negative: There was a wide post / comment ratio in the communities I was in, and I thought I was in the more active ones. It's a huge turnoff for me since I already frequent a lot of news aggregators.
- The thing that actually drove me away: notifications for trending posts in communities. It's a pet peeve of mine, I like my notifications to actually mean something.
- There was a "Let's Grab Coffee" community that was really active and involved, talking nightly. I imagine that there was a main core of people there that I would have loved to talk to, but I didn't know anyone and it felt weird lurking because it was mostly general conversation.
- It's sad when a community goes down. Reading through the comments is really disheartening, because the users sense that there's something that they did wrong. They did nothing wrong, and their website was really cool.
posted by weewooweewoo at 9:34 AM on May 25, 2017 [9 favorites]
>8 million bucks sounds like an awful lot of money to have wasted... wonder what they spent it on.
Their infrastructure had to cost a decent amount and I would imagine the senior staff were on some kind of salary to make ends meet.
posted by Ausoleil at 9:58 AM on May 25, 2017
Their infrastructure had to cost a decent amount and I would imagine the senior staff were on some kind of salary to make ends meet.
posted by Ausoleil at 9:58 AM on May 25, 2017
The thing that actually drove me away: notifications for trending posts in communities. It's a pet peeve of mine, I like my notifications to actually mean something.
This, this this, especially if they're difficult or impossible to turn off. Notifications designed to waste my time ("your friend did X!") are what finally drove me to delete Twitter from my phone. Netflix is getting worse and worse, and if my online banking doesn't cut out this kind of user-hostile bullshit, I might actually switch banks.
posted by oulipian at 10:02 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
This, this this, especially if they're difficult or impossible to turn off. Notifications designed to waste my time ("your friend did X!") are what finally drove me to delete Twitter from my phone. Netflix is getting worse and worse, and if my online banking doesn't cut out this kind of user-hostile bullshit, I might actually switch banks.
posted by oulipian at 10:02 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm on reddit every single day and I never heard of Imzy. I guess I'm not the only one.
posted by tommasz at 10:09 AM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 10:09 AM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Me either.
posted by Autumnheart at 10:19 AM on May 25, 2017
posted by Autumnheart at 10:19 AM on May 25, 2017
Wow, the voat frontpage is just wow.
curiosity killed this cat - browsed straight into the n word
posted by infini at 10:29 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
curiosity killed this cat - browsed straight into the n word
posted by infini at 10:29 AM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
what in the heck did they DO with all that money?
I couldn't have been marketing; I try to keep up with goings on in the tech world and I've never heard of them.
posted by octothorpe at 10:34 AM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I couldn't have been marketing; I try to keep up with goings on in the tech world and I've never heard of them.
posted by octothorpe at 10:34 AM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
One of the things that really have had impact on my view of the world, especially online, was being able to watch from the inside the whole mlkshk is going to shut down process - within a week of the announcement the community took steps to insure that we didn't lose touch with each other and what we really wanted was to continue having our happy place alive. Within 6 weeks, we have http://mltshp.com. The walls are a wee bit higher this time around. The popular page is apparently the only one nonmembers can browse.
tl;dr - the point is, that it's the community and people that matter, not the bells and whistles, and this was my big takeaway from the past couple of months of watching a community keep hanging on to the edges of the liferaft all the while they were building a new ship
And, as we see linked above, many of us fund metafilter to keep it going.
This Imzy fail is a great example of what a social network/chat/community/blawhatsit is actually about, and what its not. There's a lesson here to be drawn, I suspect, when the time comes when we all need to look for the tools and methods that hold us together rather than drive us apart. And I think that time is nigh.
posted by infini at 10:41 AM on May 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
tl;dr - the point is, that it's the community and people that matter, not the bells and whistles, and this was my big takeaway from the past couple of months of watching a community keep hanging on to the edges of the liferaft all the while they were building a new ship
And, as we see linked above, many of us fund metafilter to keep it going.
This Imzy fail is a great example of what a social network/chat/community/blawhatsit is actually about, and what its not. There's a lesson here to be drawn, I suspect, when the time comes when we all need to look for the tools and methods that hold us together rather than drive us apart. And I think that time is nigh.
posted by infini at 10:41 AM on May 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
The only reason that I still remembered that they exist is a) I put them in my bookmarks bar and b) they sent me a T-shirt.
I participated in a thread promising said t-shirts. Never got mine, and never heard back when I asked about it.
posted by Samizdata at 10:47 AM on May 25, 2017
I participated in a thread promising said t-shirts. Never got mine, and never heard back when I asked about it.
posted by Samizdata at 10:47 AM on May 25, 2017
well i got t-shirts and stickers at least. and afaik they did away with the tipping option (not tht it would've worked for my country)
posted by cendawanita at 10:51 AM on May 25, 2017
posted by cendawanita at 10:51 AM on May 25, 2017
If I REALLY wanted a kinder, gentler Reddit, I'd stay within my "safe" and familiar subreddits (plus Metafilter). But that's boring and lacks variety.
posted by Delia at 10:56 AM on May 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Delia at 10:56 AM on May 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm actually sad about Imzy's demise, but only because I think many people will take the wrong lessons from it. Much of the reaction I've seen so far has been a derisive "lol, guess the SJWs can't keep their safe spaces going." I actually do think there is room on the internet for strongly moderated communities based on shared interests, open-mindedness, and kindness towards one another. Unfortunately, Imzy's design was terrible. Invites required, an opaque UI that required too much concentration, and too many unimplemented features that were actually cool ideas that lent to a general air of disappointment around the place.
posted by xyzzy at 11:07 AM on May 25, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by xyzzy at 11:07 AM on May 25, 2017 [9 favorites]
I didn't like Imzy. It was clumsy to use and bad for conversations; but I suspect xyzzy's right that people will largely take away, "So much for social platforms that aren't bigoted and awful!" rather than, "Imzy was clumsy to use and bad for conversations."
posted by byanyothername at 11:20 AM on May 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by byanyothername at 11:20 AM on May 25, 2017 [8 favorites]
There is something between the "SJW safe spaces" and the "bigoted and awful" extremes. In point of fact, that is exactly what Reddit is. There are subreddits that are either extreme but the site in general is not dominated by either. I am entirely in favor of someone making a new Reddit-style message board/news aggregator but I don't understand why the average user needs anything other than Reddit where he can set up a subreddit for whatever thing he wants and moderate that as aggressively as he wants.
posted by koavf at 11:24 AM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by koavf at 11:24 AM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
I don't understand why the average user needs anything other than Reddit
Child pornography
Brigading and other site culture phenomena so steeped in roiling misogyny and racism that participation anywhere there is, to me, unacceptable.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:35 AM on May 25, 2017 [21 favorites]
Child pornography
Brigading and other site culture phenomena so steeped in roiling misogyny and racism that participation anywhere there is, to me, unacceptable.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:35 AM on May 25, 2017 [21 favorites]
I don't understand why the average user needs anything other than Reddit where he can set up a subreddit for whatever thing he wants and moderate that as aggressively as he wants
Well, that's part of the problem right there.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:38 AM on May 25, 2017 [37 favorites]
Well, that's part of the problem right there.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:38 AM on May 25, 2017 [37 favorites]
Reddit's historical tolerance for "bigoted and awful" is extremely offputting to some people. They've made some effort--getting rid of, say, /r/fatpeoplehate and changing the front page alogorithm to kick /r/the_donald off of it--but if you make a vaguely feminist post in TwoX you're fairly likely to get an inbox full of misogynistic, threatening garbage from accounts that were created 5 minutes ago. This is probably WHY Imzy was invite only, btw, but I feel like there are other ways to put new accounts in cages without requiring invites.
posted by xyzzy at 11:41 AM on May 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by xyzzy at 11:41 AM on May 25, 2017 [12 favorites]
Also, there is only the "bigoted and awful" extreme. Imzy wasn't meant to be a "SJW safe space" (which...eyeroll), it was meant to be a place that didn't have the background radiation of bigotry that pervades almost all of Reddit. Just because subreddits aren't overwhelmed by bigots doesn't mean that it's OK. In fact, accepting the pathetically low bar of "not overwhelmed by bigots" is one of the reasons Reddit and places like it will continue to attract the bigots. All they have to do is keep their harassment down to a dull (yet still constant) roar and offer up the occasional sacrificial lamb, and the libertarian douchenozzles that dominate the social media industry will gladly let them be.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:47 AM on May 25, 2017 [21 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 11:47 AM on May 25, 2017 [21 favorites]
If I REALLY wanted a kinder, gentler Reddit, I'd stay within my "safe" and familiar subreddits (plus Metafilter). But that's boring and lacks variety.
The thing about Reddit, for me, is that over time I have come to feel as though the safe and familiar there is not actually particularly safe. You're in a pond that happens to border a cesspool, and the space between them is not a solid wall. And for some reason, the people maintaining that think this is okay, as long as the general public doesn't often see the cesspool. I never went and visited the awful people--but I got awful messages on more than one occasion.
I don't really need to be safe 24/7, and I'm not. I spend plenty of time in the world in places that are not "safe", and I get exposed to a lot of outside information. But all that variety, while I think it's healthy, is also tiring. Places with better moderation provide a place to actually recharge and be properly sociable, not just to share information. I don't mind talking to people I disagree with on fundamental principles now and then, but they are not my friends. I need places I can make friends, places where I can talk about things that are vulnerable points to me, in order to actually have the energy to go out and face the rest of the world.
posted by Sequence at 12:18 PM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
The thing about Reddit, for me, is that over time I have come to feel as though the safe and familiar there is not actually particularly safe. You're in a pond that happens to border a cesspool, and the space between them is not a solid wall. And for some reason, the people maintaining that think this is okay, as long as the general public doesn't often see the cesspool. I never went and visited the awful people--but I got awful messages on more than one occasion.
I don't really need to be safe 24/7, and I'm not. I spend plenty of time in the world in places that are not "safe", and I get exposed to a lot of outside information. But all that variety, while I think it's healthy, is also tiring. Places with better moderation provide a place to actually recharge and be properly sociable, not just to share information. I don't mind talking to people I disagree with on fundamental principles now and then, but they are not my friends. I need places I can make friends, places where I can talk about things that are vulnerable points to me, in order to actually have the energy to go out and face the rest of the world.
posted by Sequence at 12:18 PM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
The reasons that reddit is so successful overlap pretty heavily with the reasons it's awful.
It's a high churn, low barrier to entry site with a huge userbase, so particularly in the default subreddits, the popularity, and thus visibility, of posts depends on appealing to the largest possible number of users in the shortest possible time. And one of the easiest ways to do that is by playing to readily recognizable sentiments, which often consist of lazy stereotypes and dramatic hot takes. People don't read articles, and they don't even really have extended discussions because of the high churn. (In the busy and/or default subreddits. I'm sure there are quieter, more thoughtful ones there too.)
I'd never heard of imzy before either, and obviously, I can't see it, but how does it differ from a regular, old style forum? Just the architecture? Because the architecture isn't why reddit is successful. I'm fairly certain that one of the major reasons that forums are dying is because people are abandoning them for general purpose sites such as Facebook and Reddit, because they are easier for most people to find and to use, and importantly, because there are a ton of people already there. You're not going to successfully improve on reddit's model by making it private and hard to find.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:32 PM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
It's a high churn, low barrier to entry site with a huge userbase, so particularly in the default subreddits, the popularity, and thus visibility, of posts depends on appealing to the largest possible number of users in the shortest possible time. And one of the easiest ways to do that is by playing to readily recognizable sentiments, which often consist of lazy stereotypes and dramatic hot takes. People don't read articles, and they don't even really have extended discussions because of the high churn. (In the busy and/or default subreddits. I'm sure there are quieter, more thoughtful ones there too.)
I'd never heard of imzy before either, and obviously, I can't see it, but how does it differ from a regular, old style forum? Just the architecture? Because the architecture isn't why reddit is successful. I'm fairly certain that one of the major reasons that forums are dying is because people are abandoning them for general purpose sites such as Facebook and Reddit, because they are easier for most people to find and to use, and importantly, because there are a ton of people already there. You're not going to successfully improve on reddit's model by making it private and hard to find.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:32 PM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]
I don't understand why the average user needs anything other than Reddit
I got doxed on Reddit this week so I'm not exactly feeling too charitable towards the site today. The mod on sub deleted the post and banned the user pretty quickly but I still deleted my account and walked away because I don't need that shit in my life.
posted by octothorpe at 12:42 PM on May 25, 2017 [19 favorites]
I got doxed on Reddit this week so I'm not exactly feeling too charitable towards the site today. The mod on sub deleted the post and banned the user pretty quickly but I still deleted my account and walked away because I don't need that shit in my life.
posted by octothorpe at 12:42 PM on May 25, 2017 [19 favorites]
So, Voat! Yeah. It's a piece of work. It wasn't always like that though -- their front page ~2 years ago is pretty innocuous. There are basically two main reasons for its extreme toxicity.
For one thing, the admins there began styling themselves as a bastion of free speech during Reddit's crackdown on harassing subreddits back in 2015. Reddit itself had grown by leaps and bounds five years earlier after Digg's disastrous redesign sent users fleeing, and Voat apparently hoped a similar exodus from Reddit would help put them on top -- and the protestors agreed. However, unlike the Digg collapse, the protestors in this case were not a broad swath of power users but rather the site's nastiest and most nakedly hateful trolls. So Voat was swamped with new users -- most of them bitter racists and misogynists.
But hey, it couldn't have been that bad, right? They had a pre-existing user base, and some of the Reddit refugees were true-blue free speech purists, folks who took genuine offense at apolitical stuff like the firing of Victoria Taylor, or just opportunists who wanted to get in on the ground floor of the next big site.
And it still may have been viable if it weren't for one other obscure change: karma-based participation throttling. Basically, Voat rations upvoting/downvoting, and ties it to your overall user score. Ironically for the fearless redoubt of free speech, new users can't submit content, vote, or comment freely until they reach certain thresholds. It was originally enacted to stop copy-paste spammers and corporate shills, but since the racists and chauvinists were the most vocal and organized bloc on the site, they proceeded to upvote themselves into power user status and collectively censor anybody who expressed disgust and opposition. This kicked off a vicious cycle (in both senses of the word) -- Voat got more toxic, dissenters were censored, decent people got alienated and left, making Voat even more toxic. End result: virtually every single submission sitewide now is some flavor of racist, sexist, or otherwise far right-wing.
It probably can't sustain itself, though -- it's way too radioactive for conventional ad partners, and even their recent desperate plea for community support netted only a few months of runway. I almost hope it does limp on indefinitely, though, just to give the dregs of the web a place to dump their bile instead of spending more time on mainstream sites.
posted by Rhaomi at 12:50 PM on May 25, 2017 [20 favorites]
For one thing, the admins there began styling themselves as a bastion of free speech during Reddit's crackdown on harassing subreddits back in 2015. Reddit itself had grown by leaps and bounds five years earlier after Digg's disastrous redesign sent users fleeing, and Voat apparently hoped a similar exodus from Reddit would help put them on top -- and the protestors agreed. However, unlike the Digg collapse, the protestors in this case were not a broad swath of power users but rather the site's nastiest and most nakedly hateful trolls. So Voat was swamped with new users -- most of them bitter racists and misogynists.
But hey, it couldn't have been that bad, right? They had a pre-existing user base, and some of the Reddit refugees were true-blue free speech purists, folks who took genuine offense at apolitical stuff like the firing of Victoria Taylor, or just opportunists who wanted to get in on the ground floor of the next big site.
And it still may have been viable if it weren't for one other obscure change: karma-based participation throttling. Basically, Voat rations upvoting/downvoting, and ties it to your overall user score. Ironically for the fearless redoubt of free speech, new users can't submit content, vote, or comment freely until they reach certain thresholds. It was originally enacted to stop copy-paste spammers and corporate shills, but since the racists and chauvinists were the most vocal and organized bloc on the site, they proceeded to upvote themselves into power user status and collectively censor anybody who expressed disgust and opposition. This kicked off a vicious cycle (in both senses of the word) -- Voat got more toxic, dissenters were censored, decent people got alienated and left, making Voat even more toxic. End result: virtually every single submission sitewide now is some flavor of racist, sexist, or otherwise far right-wing.
It probably can't sustain itself, though -- it's way too radioactive for conventional ad partners, and even their recent desperate plea for community support netted only a few months of runway. I almost hope it does limp on indefinitely, though, just to give the dregs of the web a place to dump their bile instead of spending more time on mainstream sites.
posted by Rhaomi at 12:50 PM on May 25, 2017 [20 favorites]
Or were they one of those companies that manages to burn $1million / month on AWS charges
Because ya can't figure out how to run your own servers?
posted by rough ashlar at 1:11 PM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Because ya can't figure out how to run your own servers?
posted by rough ashlar at 1:11 PM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
and the dead, gay, something awful humour forusm keep trucking along. bless.
I was amused to see that when r/the_donald (psychotically trumpian subreddit) got banned for something they went off to Voat but were dispirited by how mean they all were. 'these guys are really racist', they said.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:19 PM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
I was amused to see that when r/the_donald (psychotically trumpian subreddit) got banned for something they went off to Voat but were dispirited by how mean they all were. 'these guys are really racist', they said.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:19 PM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
You're not going to successfully improve on reddit's model by making it private and hard to find.
Some of the groups I found there or that started to migrate there at the very beginning, I think, could have done just fine with being niche little spots? But it wasn't trying to clone Reddit in layout. And I get that. I didn't need it to clone Reddit in layout. But if you look at forum threads, or Reddit threads, and you compare those to how Imzy was doing it?
What seemed like the greatest sin, to me, and it's still there, is that there is a box there to comment without even going to look to see what anybody else has said. You're being encouraged to talk without listening to anybody else. A comment might or might not migrate to the front page, I guess if it got enough likes? But its replies would stay below the fold. Imzy wasn't there to facilitate communication. It was social the way Facebook is social, where you could go weeks without actually having real human interaction with anybody through the site. And for that, yes, the site needs to have tons and tons of active users.
But seriously, the giant banner images felt ridiculous. Probably nice on a group that was dedicated to showing cute pictures or whatever, but if you're on a programming group and most of the screen real estate is taken up by useless screenshots of the headers of the articles being posted? Screenshot so you can see I'm not kidding, that's all of the actual articles that were showing up on one screen when I logged in just now.
Good ideas aren't always enough to overcome bad design. The fact that these things stayed the same to the very end suggests to me that they thought of Imzy as a very different place than many of Imzy's users expected it to be.
posted by Sequence at 2:28 PM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Some of the groups I found there or that started to migrate there at the very beginning, I think, could have done just fine with being niche little spots? But it wasn't trying to clone Reddit in layout. And I get that. I didn't need it to clone Reddit in layout. But if you look at forum threads, or Reddit threads, and you compare those to how Imzy was doing it?
What seemed like the greatest sin, to me, and it's still there, is that there is a box there to comment without even going to look to see what anybody else has said. You're being encouraged to talk without listening to anybody else. A comment might or might not migrate to the front page, I guess if it got enough likes? But its replies would stay below the fold. Imzy wasn't there to facilitate communication. It was social the way Facebook is social, where you could go weeks without actually having real human interaction with anybody through the site. And for that, yes, the site needs to have tons and tons of active users.
But seriously, the giant banner images felt ridiculous. Probably nice on a group that was dedicated to showing cute pictures or whatever, but if you're on a programming group and most of the screen real estate is taken up by useless screenshots of the headers of the articles being posted? Screenshot so you can see I'm not kidding, that's all of the actual articles that were showing up on one screen when I logged in just now.
Good ideas aren't always enough to overcome bad design. The fact that these things stayed the same to the very end suggests to me that they thought of Imzy as a very different place than many of Imzy's users expected it to be.
posted by Sequence at 2:28 PM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Wow, the voat frontpage is just wow. So much entitled/racist/manbaby/whitevictim. So much.
They managed to drive /r/The_Donald off in less than one day. T_D threw a tantrum and decided to move to Voat. The slime of Voat descended on them and the babies ran back home to reddit.
posted by jgaiser at 2:42 PM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
They managed to drive /r/The_Donald off in less than one day. T_D threw a tantrum and decided to move to Voat. The slime of Voat descended on them and the babies ran back home to reddit.
posted by jgaiser at 2:42 PM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Honestly, "Voat" sounds like a term that would be used for a very specific perversion seen mostly in niche hentai manga sub-genres.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:42 PM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:42 PM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
And it still may have been viable if it weren't for one other obscure change: karma-based participation throttling
Ahhh. Yep. Same thing with stackoverflow, where they set their targets to increase engagement, but ended up with a bunch of power trippers answering homework questions so they can close/edit other people's questions. Obviously it doesn't have the magnitude of suck in it, but you can see similar things with the wikipedia gatekeepers.
If you give an HOA to a pit of scorpions, well...
posted by lkc at 2:51 PM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Ahhh. Yep. Same thing with stackoverflow, where they set their targets to increase engagement, but ended up with a bunch of power trippers answering homework questions so they can close/edit other people's questions. Obviously it doesn't have the magnitude of suck in it, but you can see similar things with the wikipedia gatekeepers.
If you give an HOA to a pit of scorpions, well...
posted by lkc at 2:51 PM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
What seemed like the greatest sin, to me, and it's still there, is that there is a box there to comment without even going to look to see what anybody else has said. You're being encouraged to talk without listening to anybody else.
Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Giant threads and the old-school unthreaded forum model have their own particular usage and culture problems , but there's nothing about the reddit model that fosters a culture.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:31 PM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Giant threads and the old-school unthreaded forum model have their own particular usage and culture problems , but there's nothing about the reddit model that fosters a culture.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:31 PM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
"Voat" always made me think of some kind of detestable creature that was to stoats what Zelda's moblins are to pigs; i.e. bigger, grosser, smellier, meaner, etc.
I think there is a lot of use and desire for an alternative platform that does what Reddit does with more moderation and less tolerance of vileness and bigotry. I have also been doxed and harassed on the site several times without really exposing myself to hate subs. There's just so much overlap between subs that the hate groups leak out and if you're a visible minority on the site, you've got a big target and a ticking clock taped to you. I've had better luck abandoning a ton of innocuous-looking subs that got overrun by bigots and infrequently posting from multiple specialized accounts (though the one for minority/feminist/political stuff still gets hit with hate mail), but that's a crappy solution. I'd prefer a similar site that's just not run by dilweeds.
I think one of the biggest issues with Imzy is that it never understood that Reddit's power is in its simplicity. It is not a fancy website. That is not a bad thing! It's in fact a rather good thing! Imzy was designed for mobile use and just wound up being sort of bloated and awkward to use.
posted by byanyothername at 4:29 PM on May 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
I think there is a lot of use and desire for an alternative platform that does what Reddit does with more moderation and less tolerance of vileness and bigotry. I have also been doxed and harassed on the site several times without really exposing myself to hate subs. There's just so much overlap between subs that the hate groups leak out and if you're a visible minority on the site, you've got a big target and a ticking clock taped to you. I've had better luck abandoning a ton of innocuous-looking subs that got overrun by bigots and infrequently posting from multiple specialized accounts (though the one for minority/feminist/political stuff still gets hit with hate mail), but that's a crappy solution. I'd prefer a similar site that's just not run by dilweeds.
I think one of the biggest issues with Imzy is that it never understood that Reddit's power is in its simplicity. It is not a fancy website. That is not a bad thing! It's in fact a rather good thing! Imzy was designed for mobile use and just wound up being sort of bloated and awkward to use.
posted by byanyothername at 4:29 PM on May 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
It really isn't. It just does a slightly better job at sectioning it off. There's a behind-the-scenes fracas going on where the people behind bigoted subreddits have effectively managed to bully site mods (and occasionally other subreddit mods) into falling in line.
Whoa/ugh. Can you tell us more?
posted by schadenfrau at 5:59 PM on May 25, 2017
Whoa/ugh. Can you tell us more?
posted by schadenfrau at 5:59 PM on May 25, 2017
the popularity, and thus visibility, of posts depends on appealing to the largest possible number of users in the shortest possible time. And one of the easiest ways to do that is by playing to readily recognizable sentiments, which often consist of lazy stereotypes and dramatic hot takes. People don't read articles, and they don't even really have extended discussions because of the high churn. (In the busy and/or default subreddits. I'm sure there are quieter, more thoughtful ones there too.
I think you just described the new MetaFilter political thread model.
posted by Wolfdog at 6:21 PM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
I think you just described the new MetaFilter political thread model.
posted by Wolfdog at 6:21 PM on May 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
The walls are a wee bit higher this time around. The popular page is apparently the only one nonmembers can browse.
Was the lesson to take away from mlkshk shutting down that the walls weren't high enough? I've seen online communities stagnate (Everything2 comes to mind) when they had enough of a barrier to entry that their attrition rate was higher than the volume of quality new users joining. Metafilter has the small barrier to entry for joining but it's pretty clear what your $5 gets you access to. I'm not sure restricting strangers to something that resembles a million random tumblrs is going to convince them to join, and while that may suit the goals of the current community, it may be unsustainable.
posted by Candleman at 7:18 PM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Was the lesson to take away from mlkshk shutting down that the walls weren't high enough? I've seen online communities stagnate (Everything2 comes to mind) when they had enough of a barrier to entry that their attrition rate was higher than the volume of quality new users joining. Metafilter has the small barrier to entry for joining but it's pretty clear what your $5 gets you access to. I'm not sure restricting strangers to something that resembles a million random tumblrs is going to convince them to join, and while that may suit the goals of the current community, it may be unsustainable.
posted by Candleman at 7:18 PM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think you just described the new MetaFilter political thread model.
It would be like if text size scaled by favourite numbers.
posted by Sebmojo at 9:08 PM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
It would be like if text size scaled by favourite numbers.
posted by Sebmojo at 9:08 PM on May 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
About mlkshk: there were legal threats and the hosting cost was quite high. Not being public addresses both so that's nice. But you're right that it also makes the discoverability much lower.
posted by jouke at 9:39 PM on May 25, 2017
posted by jouke at 9:39 PM on May 25, 2017
This story demonstrates how exceptional MetaFilter really is. Even though the degree of negativity and tendency to pile on has significantly increased over the past decade, it remains an island of intelligent civility amidst the maelstrom of the web.
posted by fairmettle at 11:26 PM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 11:26 PM on May 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
"Voat" always made me think of some kind of detestable creature that was to stoats what Zelda's moblins are to pigs; i.e. bigger, grosser, smellier, meaner, etc.
posted by byanyothername at 6:29 PM on May 25 [5 favorites +] [!]
Sounds like an evil cross between a vole and a stoat. (All my information about voles and stoats comes from Wind in the Willows)
posted by a humble nudibranch at 11:53 PM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by byanyothername at 6:29 PM on May 25 [5 favorites +] [!]
Sounds like an evil cross between a vole and a stoat. (All my information about voles and stoats comes from Wind in the Willows)
posted by a humble nudibranch at 11:53 PM on May 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
But you're right that it also makes the discoverability much lower.
Also, I suspect, that as soon as we know whether current subs are covering current operating costs, there's no real motive or driver to seek out growth in the way something VC funded would need to.
posted by infini at 12:10 AM on May 26, 2017
Also, I suspect, that as soon as we know whether current subs are covering current operating costs, there's no real motive or driver to seek out growth in the way something VC funded would need to.
posted by infini at 12:10 AM on May 26, 2017
*ctrl+F "ello": text not found*
posted by progosk at 12:47 AM on May 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by progosk at 12:47 AM on May 26, 2017 [3 favorites]
They give up after only 7 months with the bank still full? Doesn't speak for the dudes running the show
posted by NotSam at 7:21 AM on May 26, 2017
posted by NotSam at 7:21 AM on May 26, 2017
They give up after only 7 months with the bank still full? Doesn't speak for the dudes running the show
It's refreshing. There's this stupid narrative peddled to the rubes that elevates determination above all other elements of success, which then makes admitting you won't succeed an immoral act. At this point you can't even distinguish between determination, self-delusion and outright fraud (cf Theranos.)
They presumably had growth curve projections and similar estimates as to what'd take to succeed, and after eight months knew they were way off. It could easily leave them with no plausible way to ever succeed--even if things started improving slowly they wouldn't have the cash to scale up, for example. You don't need to actually hit the iceberg before you try to change course.
posted by mark k at 7:33 AM on May 26, 2017 [6 favorites]
It's refreshing. There's this stupid narrative peddled to the rubes that elevates determination above all other elements of success, which then makes admitting you won't succeed an immoral act. At this point you can't even distinguish between determination, self-delusion and outright fraud (cf Theranos.)
They presumably had growth curve projections and similar estimates as to what'd take to succeed, and after eight months knew they were way off. It could easily leave them with no plausible way to ever succeed--even if things started improving slowly they wouldn't have the cash to scale up, for example. You don't need to actually hit the iceberg before you try to change course.
posted by mark k at 7:33 AM on May 26, 2017 [6 favorites]
« Older Piano Smashing Contests | I don't know accounting, but I know what I like Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by infini at 8:05 AM on May 25, 2017 [7 favorites]