Daughter of Themyscira‎

May 29, 2017 11:12 PM

What Does Wonder Woman Actually Represent? - a The Nib comic strip essay by Lucy Bellwood and Sarah Mirk.
posted by Artw (59 comments total)

The Guardian's review is out, and its not very upbeat: glass ceiling intact as Gal Gadot reduced to weaponised Smurfette
posted by biffa at 1:49 AM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

I'm disappointed but unsurprised that the movie sucks, but the comic linked in the OP is excellent. I learned things!
posted by parm at 1:59 AM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

I have to say I love some of the incredibly stilted language the internet causes. "A The Nib comic"...

Tee hee.

(As an aside, all the women I know personally have said they like it.)
posted by Samizdata at 2:34 AM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Linked comic is indeed excellent!

The Guardian review so far seems to be a bit of an exception. It has 96% on Rotten Tomatoes. I remain cautiously optimistic.

Here's something I noticed when perusing the reviews that drove me into a bit of a ragestorm, though --

Films directed by Patty Jenkins:

2003 -- Monster. Won Charlize Theron an Academy Award, Golden Globe, and SAG Award. Roger Ebert called it the best film of 2003 and the third best film of the aughts. Made $60 million worldwide on an $8 million budget.

2004-2016 -- None.

2017 -- Wonder Woman
posted by kyrademon at 2:37 AM on May 30, 2017 [27 favorites]

I thought that The Nib ended with a rather milquetoast and uncritical "each generation defines me differently..." was rather disappointing.

The bigamy of the original creator was the most interesting fact. The recent movie just looks daft. I have no real desire to see it.
posted by mary8nne at 2:52 AM on May 30, 2017

Oh FFS, polyamory =/= bigamy. And did you not even bother reading the last panel?
posted by zombieflanders at 3:33 AM on May 30, 2017 [23 favorites]

(As an aside, all the women I know personally have said they like it.)

Grauniad review by... Steve Rose
posted by chavenet at 3:37 AM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

kyrademon: "2004-2016 -- None."

“Absolutely. There are technical reasons [for her long hiatus from film], I had a baby, I had a movie that didn’t go, all those things are true.” What is also true, however, is that “I have passed on a lot of things that would have been extremely lucrative, because they were nothing else. Even if it’s an action movie, even if it’s a thriller, I want to bring something beautiful into the world on some level that I believe in.” That attitude, she says, has made her “unbelievably picky”.

There’s also the industry’s sexism: “It’s played a part – I’m not offered things that are authentic to me very often. I did not necessarily feel that Hollywood was interested in what I wanted to do. They wanted me to do what they wanted to do.” From Wonder Woman director Patty Jenkins: ‘People really thought that only men loved action movies’
posted by chavenet at 3:43 AM on May 30, 2017 [24 favorites]

The Guardian review seems to be an outlier, Metacritic has the film at 79% right now.
posted by octothorpe at 3:44 AM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

From the comic: "What I represent depends on who's writing and who's reading." IOW, Wonder Woman gets much of her identity from the projection of others' thoughts and concerns. Sigh.
posted by GrammarMoses at 4:07 AM on May 30, 2017

Oh FFS, polyamory =/= bigamy.

This is true, but with Marston I really really wonder how much his wife was on board with the idea of this relationship. There's a curious silence about her in most of the stories I've read about this, particularly regarding those early years, with the odd hint or two that her initial assent may have been no more enthusiastic than "I'd rather go along with this than get divorced". If that's true, it's hardly the progressive romantic utopia it gets painted as.

Clearly things worked out to some extent, since they lived together after Marston died, but every time I read about Marston's polyamory I walk away with a vague unease that dude had to some degree used his feminist views as a way to get what he wanted out of his marriage more or less irrespective of his wife's wishes. I hope that's just me being unfair or prudish, but somehow I doubt it.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:26 AM on May 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

From the comic: "What I represent depends on who's writing and who's reading." IOW, Wonder Woman gets much of her identity from the projection of others' thoughts and concerns. Sigh.

GrammerMoses: Surely both that original remark and your rephrasing of it are equally true of any fictional character, aren't they?
posted by Paul Slade at 5:30 AM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

I mean, this really drives me nuts:

Sofia Coppola: 6 films in 18 years (1 every 3 years)
Betty Thomas: 8 films in 25 years (1 every 3.1 years)
Nora Ephron: 8 films in 25 years (1 every 3.1 years)
Kathryn Bigelow: 10 films in 35 years (1 every 3.5 years)
Julie Taymor: 5 films in 18 years (1 every 3.6 years)
Amy Heckerling: 9 films in 35 years (1 every 3.9 years)
Kasi Lemmons: 5 films in 20 years (1 every 4 years)
Rebecca Miller: 5 films in 22 years (1 every 4.4 years)
Penny Marshall: 7 films in 31 years (1 every 4.4 years)
Lisa Cholodenko: 4 films in 19 years (1 every 4.75 years)
Mary Harron: 4 films in 21 years (1 every 5.25 years)

Meanwhile, picking a random sampling among well-known male directors:

Steven Soderbergh: 27 films in 28 years (1 every 1.0 years)
Richard Linklater: 19 films in 29 years (1 every 1.5 years)
Michael Bay: 13 films in 22 years (1 every 1.7 years)
Gus Van Sant: 17 films in 32 years (1 every 1.9 years)
Christopher Nolan: 10 films in 19 years (1 every 1.9 years)
Joel Cohn: 17 films in 33 years (1 every 1.9 years)
Chris Columbus: 16 films in 32 years (1 every 2 years)
Quentin Tarantino: 11 films in 25 years (1 every 2.27 years)
David Fincher: 10 films in 25 years (1 every 2.5 years)
posted by kyrademon at 5:41 AM on May 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

The comic misses another precursor to Wonder Woman.

In the early 20th and late 19th century, there were a series of novels written about all-female utopias:

For example: Herland
posted by empath at 6:04 AM on May 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Surely both that original remark and your rephrasing of it are equally true of any fictional character, aren't they?

Yes, but Wonder Woman is a particularly egregious example. The comic addresses it, but let's look at her origin story compared to other (male) superheroes.

Superman: Last son of the doomed planet Krypton, sent to Earth as an infant, adopted by a kindly Kansas farm couple.
Batman: Wealthy, parents murdered, took on the mantle of a bat to scare criminals.
Spider-Man: Bitten by a radioactive spider, wracked with guilt over his complicity in his uncle's death.

While the fine details may vary based on the writer and the editor, these stories have never changed. They've been static for decades, and if you've had any consciousness of American pop culture in the past twenty years, you know them.

But Wonder Woman? She's from an all-female island called Themyscira, but... something about magic clay? Maybe? I don't know her origin story, and neither do you, because it completely changes every few years. She has no mythos. She doesn't even have any iconic archenemies. She's a cypher. And that's a terrible thing, because the world's most prominent female superhero deserves respect.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:29 AM on May 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

io9's review is considerably more balanced. The Grauniad review reads like it may have been written well before the reviewer actually saw the movie, based on various trailers and their own preconceptions about what the movie could have been.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:56 AM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

If you want more on the origins of Wonder Woman, this podcast goes into more detail.
posted by empath at 7:24 AM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

But Wonder Woman? She's from an all-female island called Themyscira, but... something about magic clay? Maybe? I don't know her origin story, and neither do you, because it completely changes every few years. She has no mythos.

It's true that WW's origin story has evolved over the years (probably in large part to dodge the "does Diana have two mommies?" question), but let's not kid ourselves that her male DC/Marvel compatriots are any less susceptible to origin-creep. The Golden and Silver Age origins of Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man all have basic throughlines, but they've been embroidered upon significantly by successive writers and in the various TV and film adaptations just as often as WW, if not more often. Canonicity in comics largely depends on who's telling the story, and readers can accept or reject changes and additions as they will.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:49 AM on May 30, 2017

(I actually liked the 2010 costume, as short-lived as it was.)
posted by tobascodagama at 8:54 AM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

let's look at her origin story compared to [Superman, Batman, & Spider-Man]

Yeah, but there are hardly any comic book heroes with origin stories as compelling as those three that so succinctly explain the entire character. And arguably, those three are as successful as they are because they have such perfect origin stories. Wonder Woman was successful for other reasons and once she'd been around long enough, it's pretty hard for any one version of her origin to become canon.

Even so, there's a consistent and compelling core--super-strong princess wielding a magic Lasso of Truth come from an island of women to help with the mess that is "man's world"--that is a lot less muddled than, say, Thor's backstory ("Who did you say Donald Blake was again?") or Wolverine's, or Aquaman's, and the details of what exactly Themyscira is like or how the gods gave Diana powers are no more inconsistent than details about what Krypton was like or how exactly Superman's powers work.
posted by straight at 9:06 AM on May 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

Wonder Woman and representation is an interesting question. On the one hand she, like Batman, Superman and all the rest most definitively represent a revenue stream for multi-media companies and some prestige in controlling the character. In a like manner, they represent income, prestige, and some creative/artistic interest for the artists involved in telling stories about the character, and from the creators for coming up with the ideas that shape how audiences will perceive the character, yet doing so under the aegis of the company controlling the property rights. (This is different than an artist retaining control over their own work as they can exert far greater influence over the image of the character, so not all fictional creations are equal in this regard.)

The audience too, of course, will shape the character in their reception of it in their manner and depth of appreciation, where that response is strongly led by the company and creative talent involved in telling the stories. There can be appreciation that is determined enough to oppose, challenge, or subvert tellings that don't fit their desired method of expression, but that kind of oppositional reading generally isn't the domain of children, which works against the final panel of the linked comic. (One might wonder which Wonder Woman those children are so eagerly reading given the variety of options presented in the above panels, and suggest that question points to part of the problem with their somewhat glib and happy seeming take on the issue.)

On the other hand, with Wonder Woman there is the additional and important consideration that representation for her is more significant on an iconic scale than a commercially driven comic or movie sales tally. Wonder Woman hasn't been an exceptionally strong commercial product compared to many other male superheroes in my memory. Her status comes as much from being the signal icon of female superherodom. A category so strongly male that her fame alone is enough to spark interest, even as it too raises some additional questions.

Comics have long had a male dominated readership, and now viewership, so Wonder Woman's fame both shows women can be superheroes of roughly equal status to males and that "battle" is being fought on turf not especially friendly to women as the sales and lack of much in the way of iconic stories to match her fame. She is better known for her accessories, golden lasso, bracelets, outfit, invisible plane, than any foe or story line.

One might suggest there is something of an issue in searching for a women character of great importance in a genre so determinedly masculinized over the decades, as if that kind of proof somehow better validates the interests of young women who found "heroes" in life, other mediums, or personal imaginings. I wouldn't, of course, deny anyone their desire for a superhero that fits their wants or their lack of interest in the topic, but worry using things like superhero comics as proof of value may be inherently problematic due to their history. It seems sometimes that we might be going too far in using the interests of young men as a match for success rather than finding and celebrating alternatives and leaving those old flawed histories and concepts behind

That last bit of worry aside, Wonder Woman as an icon decidedly shouldn't be ignored as there are clearly many who at least desire some representation of an equally strong woman to go with the other iconic heroes of our culture without regard for commercial success. That desire makes Wonder Woman a somewhat fraught property for DC and Warner given their desire to balance the prestige of having that signal icon with the want for profits. Any major decision made regarding the character resonates beyond the confines of the movie or comic line she is featured in to become a larger discussion over women in comics and movies. That is for the good, and in a way shows a kind of heroic property of the character that exists outside the control of those who own her rights.

Hollywood does business something like insurance companies do, creating pools of perceived risk where budgets are calculated based on the history of earnings by the talent and work they are putting money behind. For women directors, this tends to mean they are seen as a separate group from men and are kept on shorter leashes with different revenue projections for financing their films based on a depressingly limited pool of past works and audience neglect of works outside a range of generally familiar commodities. Movies made for white men and boys by white men with white men have been the biggest money makers, so that is where Hollywood first looks to pour more money. Recent years have seen some change, with a few movies being big hits from women audiences, often starring women, and with a few directed by women. (The same is true, to a lesser extent with racial minority groups, where Hollywood has expanded casting of costarring roles to PoC due to some big successes, more dependence on overseas markets, and to seek to avoid protests. Still a long way to go there obviously.)

Women directors who aren't interested in spectacle movie making won't find much financing since those movies often don't make much money, with some exceptions like Nora Ephron who auteured her way to Woody Allen like success in romantic comedies for a while. Women who are interested in making big budget movies will have a hard time getting work since they have little history of success in that field individually or as part of the group "women" given Hollywood's conservative grouping preferences.

The sad part is that Hollywood isn't all wrong in their perception. While they're clearly wrong about talent and ability, they aren't so wrong about audience preference. What movies people see determine which will get made and who will make them. This is obvious enough, but somehow doesn't really gain much elective force when people choose which movies to see. Those who care at all about the issue, still seem to expect Hollywood to make the changes simply because its the right thing to do, even if they then choose not to see those movies made by women or PoC. While that would be ideal, chance is far more likely to come if people start supporting movies made by creators that aren't the usual Hollywood white guys and show there is an pent up interest in diversity awaiting action.

If you care about superhero movies, and I'm not here to say you should or shouldn't, then go see Wonder Woman at the theater regardless of reviews just as you might whatever superhero you favor as it being a success means that will make it more likely more movies like it and more movies directed by women will be made. The same goes for Black Panther when it comes out. If you want Hollywood to change, support the change and skimp on the old model filmmaking instead. Minority success in Hollywood will require a base of successful films as proof the audience is receptive. If they are, then the money will follow, for whatever the prejudices of the producers individually, money will win out in the end. If you're like me and don't care much about big budget Hollywood, then maybe support smaller films instead and skip the big budget stuff until it hits video and don't worry about being out of touch with the twitter event of the moment. The same for comics, ignore the big events and keep talking up the quality stuff you love. It might not change anything, but it at least is walking away from a deeply problematic industry in its worst element.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:52 AM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

This is true, but with Marston I really really wonder how much his wife was on board with the idea of this relationship. There's a curious silence about her in most of the stories I've read about this, particularly regarding those early years, with the odd hint or two that her initial assent may have been no more enthusiastic than "I'd rather go along with this than get divorced". If that's true, it's hardly the progressive romantic utopia it gets painted as.

I really enjoyed Jill Lepore's account of the relationship in The Secret History of Wonder Woman, and it's nuanced enough that I don't want to try to paraphrase it in a comment. But I think that while the relationship had troubling aspects (as do many marriages and other more conventional relationships), it's fairly labeled polyamory. But if you are at all interested, I'd definitely recommend the book.
posted by layceepee at 10:45 AM on May 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

> "This is true, but with Marston I really really wonder how much his wife was on board with the idea of this relationship ... I walk away with a vague unease that dude had to some degree used his feminist views as a way to get what he wanted out of his marriage more or less irrespective of his wife's wishes."

Well, I mean, maybe? My impression has been that we don't know because they were all understandably pretty tight-lipped about what was going on.

I'm not an expert on their story (I have not read Lepore's book, and it's entirely possible it contains information I do not know). From the broad sketch of it I know, some parts seem like they could be pretty skeevy. (Olive was William's student? Er ...) But on the other hand, there are things like -- Elizabeth supported Olive for 40 years after William died. One of her children is named after Olive.

Was Elizabeth pushed into a situation she didn't want and came to accept it? Was she an enthusiastic supporter of the idea from the beginning? Were she and Olive in love? I'm not sure it's possible to answer any of that with complete authority. Most likely, it was complicated.

Based on what I know of early Wonder Woman, though, I'd be willing to bet that they were super into bondage.
posted by kyrademon at 10:52 AM on May 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

I wonder how much of Wonder Woman's issues as a "cipher" is because of her being treated as "the woman" by the men who call the shots, rather than something endemic to the character herself. Like Jean Grey, both of them have been written more by men than women - and often by men who didn't view them as subjects but rather as objects (to wit the crushes on Jean Grey driving a lot of X-Men drama).

Because of this objectification, the internal motivations of Wonder Woman become less important than using her as a representation of what each set of men think women should be - a pretty typical issue with having a Smurfette - as well as being the only launching point for women to see themselves in a male dominated setting. Add on the current backlash against women gaining influence, and you end up with a male writer creating a woman-dominated society in his imagination which renders explicit his own fears of being dis-empowered by women, and then publishing that fear-based fantasy for men and women to consume.

I'm really looking forward to seeing this one even though Wonder Woman is a Smurfette. I think Smurfettes are the most we're going to get out of mainstream media given how profoundly sexist it continues to be. I want my power fantasy, my illusion that a powerful woman can go toe to toe with the world and succeed. I need that right now, even if it does downplay the extent to which I would like to see many women doing this together.
posted by Deoridhe at 11:59 AM on May 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

Based on what I know of early Wonder Woman, though, I'd be willing to bet that they were super into bondage.

When I was a little girl, Wonder Woman meant so much to me. I had found a '70s era collection of her first issues with a preface by Gloria Steinem and an interview with Phyllis Chesler (I think). At seven or eight, I tried to understand what they were talking about, and mostly I didn't. Whether I would have learned about Marston's entire, you know, deal from those pieces, I can't recall. What I did remember is that Steinem said that Wonder Woman was amazing, that later writers were afraid of her and tried to bury her and take away her powers, and now she was back.

Despite what old wives' tales said, it was the boys who were cruelest to me in school, not the girls, so the idea of an island with just girls, girls who grew up to be enormously strong, was exactly what I needed. The comics weren't perfect; the art needed work, there was racism, and Etta Candy is Problematic, but even so, I have yet to take great interest in WW comics by other writers.

It hurt for me to learn, later in life, that Wonder Woman was in part an expression of a man's kink -- of femdom and bondage. But by then, I had already grown up to be someone who was unafraid of other women and of their strength, and Wonder Woman was a real part of that. Oft boner's will does boner mar.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:10 PM on May 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

There's a strong case to be made that Wonder Woman has been treated more shittily than her male superhero peers (case in point, the ~7 Superman movies, ~8 Batman movies, and ~5 Spider-Man movies by the time we get our first Wonder Woman movie), but I'm not sure inconsistent writing is the best argument. Remember that there were eras when Batman was spraying his foes with Bat-Shark-Repellant and Superman was all like, "If I don't eat 1,000 pies by noon tomorrow, Lois Lane will die!" and is Spider-Man still married or not? I honestly can't remember.
posted by kyrademon at 12:44 PM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

According to Wikipedia, Wonder Woman's had at least four female writers in the comics: Gail Simone, Trina Robbins, Mindy Newell and Jodi Picoult. How did they each handle the character and to what extent did their runs manage to avoid the kind of pitfalls mentioned here?
posted by Paul Slade at 12:57 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

There's a strong case to be made that Wonder Woman has been treated more shittily than her male superhero peers

Counterpoint: DCAU Justice League and DCAU Justice League Unlimited, voiced by Susan Eisenberg.
posted by mikelieman at 1:19 PM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Explain, please?
posted by kyrademon at 1:24 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

I've suppose I've decided to break my DC ban for this movie. I want my kids seeing as many kickass women as possible, and it wouldn't hurt to send DC feedback that not being shitbags can be profitable. Given that the majority feedback is that it's good, it should be supported.

I kinda hate that the first woman superhero movie is coming from a company that has been so unkind to women, not just on its pages but in its staffing as well, but I suppose you take what wins you can get, and hey, maybe this will mark progress for DC as a company. One can hope. But I'm conflicted.

How did they each handle the character and to what extent did their runs manage to avoid the kind of pitfalls mentioned here?

I can't speak to the others but I imagine part of Gail Simone's strategy was "literally light on fire any man who tries to fuck me up on this".
posted by middleclasstool at 1:38 PM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

I only have two thoughts to add:

Monster was one of the most astonishing movies I've ever watched. I had no idea the same director was doing WW.

My son got me the DC WW doll for my birthday, and the doll itself is fine (and well articulated) but the clothes/accessories are cheap crap that won't stay on. Also if you want the sword/shield you have to get another doll--I haven't seen them sold separately.

If you're going to get the doll for a kid who actually wants to play with it you might get the (more expensive) Barbie version.

And this is just more evidence to me that marketers don't care about leaving money on the table where girls are concerned. Batman has a million accessories and sizes of doll, so do the rest, but WW gets a lot less. Argh.
posted by emjaybee at 2:06 PM on May 30, 2017

The world needs Wonder Woman. Director Patty Jenkins explains why
posted by homunculus at 2:16 PM on May 30, 2017

There's a strong case to be made that Wonder Woman has been treated more shittily than her male superhero peers but I'm not sure inconsistent writing is the best argument. Remember that there were eras when Batman...

Well, the thing that sucks is that the characterization is so inconsistent. For most of their history, you could give an arguably correct answer to the question "What would Superman (or Batman or Spider-Man) do in this situation?" but Wonder Woman has been everything from the most pacifist member of the Justice League to the one with the least qualms about killing people.
posted by straight at 3:19 PM on May 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Counterpoint: DCAU Justice League and DCAU Justice League Unlimited, voiced by Susan Eisenberg.

I approve of the Warner Bros DCAU Wonder Woman, because the writing for everybody in that show is better than... I don't know, almost any other medium I can think of, and I'm not sure I'd exclude the MCU from that, much as I enjoy and respect its accomplishments.

But I'm not sure it mitigates the point. I mean, I think she is treated quite well in the ensemble cast (among other female heroes!) ... but let's remember that franchise was for years built around the flagship Batman and Superman series, and there was no WW or other female hero focused series.
posted by wildblueyonder at 7:40 PM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Even Catwoman got a movie first, and, well... okay, let's not talk about the Catwoman movie.
posted by Artw at 8:44 PM on May 30, 2017

Wonder Woman is particularly significant for being (for a long time) one of the few prominent female superheroes who was not either a female version of a male hero (Supergirl, Batgirl, Mary Marvel, Zatanna, Namora, Ms. Marvel) or defined primarily as a superhero's wife/girlfriend (Wasp, Lois Lane, Invisible Girl).

The closest non-derivative heroes to WW in prominence would probably be Jean Grey, Black Canary, Storm, Saturn Girl, Scarlet Witch, and Black Widow. So Wonder Woman is pretty clearly in a class by herself.
posted by straight at 11:19 PM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

I just really, really want Gal Gadot and Chris Pine in an interview where they ask Gal all sorts of questions about Wonder Woman’s meaning in the modern political landscape and Gal’s thoughts on movie making today, all while Chris Pine sits there smiling and looking handsome.

And then just before the end, the reporter asks Chris about his workout and diet for the shirtless scenes.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 4:45 AM on May 31, 2017 [18 favorites]

Relevant Honest Trailer for Catwoman.
posted by emjaybee at 4:48 PM on May 31, 2017

If you want a doll or weapons, go for the DC Super Hero Girl line - solid figures of various sizes, the shield shoots darts, and the costume-inspired clothing is actual clothing, not plastic costume.
posted by geek anachronism at 6:26 PM on May 31, 2017

Bethy Squires: Alamo Drafthouse Apologizes for Starting Manpocalypse With Women-Only Screening

We at the Alamo Drafthouse would like to officially apologize for our role in the end of mankind as we knew it, and the ascendant Gynocracy that followed. We didn’t know our women-only screening of Wonder Woman would result in the overthrow of all world governments and the total subjugation of men, but in hindsight we probably should have seen it coming.
[...]
Since Last Man Standing had recently been cancelled, there was no one left to challenge their total cultural takeover, and now all cishet men have been jailed in the abandoned Curves Gyms and Carl’s Jr’s across the globe. Again, we at the Alamo Drafthouse regret this turn of events and the role we played in hastening the end of civilization. We were short sighted and didn’t realize that celebrating women for one night would have such dire consequences. Our bad.

posted by zombieflanders at 7:20 AM on June 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

Underoos would like you to know that they still make WW underoos. Now in sizes SM-4X!
posted by Sophie1 at 8:08 AM on June 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

I just Kermit flailed on learning the continued existence of Underoos and texted a link to my wife and she immediately replied "Don't you dare buy anything yet."
posted by middleclasstool at 9:51 AM on June 2, 2017

This is awesome but I want to buy the top and bottom separately. I'm not sure I'm brave enough to look for a way to swap Underoos to get the right sizes...
posted by asperity at 10:17 AM on June 2, 2017

That's a cool overview. I didn't realize how inconsistent the story line was for wonder woman throughout. What were they thinking with some of those ideas. I hesitantly watched Wonder Woman yesterday, hoping that DC created something magical. They did a good job, but it was predictable.
posted by ZypDon54 at 7:08 AM on June 3, 2017

From the Guardian review: "Confusingly, Diana later explains that “men are essential for procreation but when it comes to pleasure, unnecessary”."

Uh, yeah, so that review is...let's just not consider it in terms of the movie, or criticism, or anything.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:20 PM on June 3, 2017 [5 favorites]

It's needlessly crabby and I largely disagree with it, though I feel excluding the first half of that paragraph per the widely redistributed tweet is a bit disingenuous:

Things begin well enough, as our heroine, Diana (nobody ever calls her Wonder Woman), casts her mind back to her childhood on Themyscira, the hidden island of the Amazons. This tribe of athletic, leather-clad female warriors live in a bubble of classical antiquity, oblivious to the opposite sex and the first world war that rages outside. Diana’s mother, Hippolyta (Connie Nielsen), explains the mythology to her with the aid of a sort of ancient Greek iPad: how the Amazons were created by Zeus to resist Ares, the god of war (who is still at large), and how she sculpted Diana from clay – which you can believe when she grows up to be statuesque Israeli actor Gal Gadot. Confusingly, Diana later explains that “men are essential for procreation but when it comes to pleasure, unnecessary”.

TBH the movie *does* match the comic in terms of being super muddy on how Amazon island works reproductively.
posted by Artw at 5:58 PM on June 3, 2017 [1 favorite]

(The whole message of peace through stabbing the right person, And how that doesn't work, only maybe it does, etc... is all kind of muddy and confused in a way that is very comics also)
posted by Artw at 6:00 PM on June 3, 2017

Well for what it's worth, that passage was read from a book by a philosopher. And it's not incorrect when it comes to Diana's creation either. As the reviewer would have known if they'd actually seen the movie.
posted by happyroach at 6:33 PM on June 3, 2017 [1 favorite]

Austin Mayor Responds To Man Angry About Woman Only Screening Of Wonder Woman.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 9:00 PM on June 3, 2017 [3 favorites]

Yeah I read the whole thing, it still sticks out as badly worded, and entirely asinine response to 'we don't reproduce, I was made of clay, we still have sex with each other'. It's a mean-spirited and entirely daft critique of the film, from someone who it does seem has missed large chunks of it.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:08 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]

Saw the movie last night! Some comments:

As a film, on the whole, I would rate it pretty good. On the level of a second-tier Marvel movie like Dr. Strange or Guardians of the Galaxy II, i.e. not one of the best ones, but definitely not one of the worst.

However, as a movie explicitly headlining a female superhero, it did (or deliberately didn't do) some things in ways that I GREATLY appreciate:

-- The main character was never once the damsel in distress, and it was made clear there was never any chance she would be

-- The one nude scene was Steve Trevor's

-- While there were shots that focused on Wonder Woman's body, they were pretty much entirely in the service of making her look kick-ass

-- Her final fight was not with a female villain

-- All attempts to exert any kind of Male Authority over her got shut the hell down by her right away

-- The existence of lesbian relationships on Themiscyra, while not foregrounded, was acknowledged both overtly in the dialogue and with a nice subtle touch or two in the mise-en-scene

-- She was not the only capable female character in the outside-of-Themiscyra filmic world, although the other non-Amazon capable female characters (one heroic, one villainous) had relatively small parts

All of this was much appreciated by me as an audience member.
posted by kyrademon at 7:44 AM on June 4, 2017 [6 favorites]

Going to see it in a couple of hours, am excited.

It looks like a substantial box office hit with over $100M domestic grosses.
posted by octothorpe at 11:44 AM on June 4, 2017 [2 favorites]

They really did hit the perfect combination of a good script, excellent director, and charismatic leads to create a blockbuster summer movie. It's one of the few blockbusters I want to see again.

Some random notes:

- Oh man, after all that idiotic criticism over Gal Godot not being muscular enough for the part- she was perfect. I loved how she showed Diana's determination, intelligence and empathy.

- The Amazon response to the first meeting of men in thousands of years was amazingly measured, considering the circumstances. The Amazons doe have wisdom.

- The moments of joy: Steve Trevor's unguarded delight at the glowing bath, Diana's wonderful grin when she jumps to the tower.

- I mean seriously, a superheroine who regards their powers as a joy, not a terrible burden. What a change!

- The fish-out-of water scenes were not played at Diana's expense, but at the world of men. That her mortal friends were often as not trying to play catch-up with the charging demigoddess

Yeah, I think we'll go see it again.
posted by happyroach at 2:37 PM on June 4, 2017 [2 favorites]

> "The fish-out-of water scenes were not played at Diana's expense, but at the world of men."

I very much liked that Diana's attitude towards the wonders of the modern world appeared to be something along the lines of, "Merciful Zeus, what a bunch of primitive hicks."
posted by kyrademon at 3:47 PM on June 4, 2017 [5 favorites]

Wonder Woman's Most Fantastic Scene Nearly Didn't Get Made at All
posted by Artw at 10:36 AM on June 5, 2017 [2 favorites]

Amazing that she had to fight for that, it was the best scene in the movie.
posted by octothorpe at 10:53 AM on June 5, 2017 [2 favorites]

These Are the Essential Comics to Read After You've Watched Wonder Woman
posted by Artw at 6:30 PM on June 6, 2017 [1 favorite]

This was amazing! I need to see it again. A few times! I get the CGI complaints in the third act, but the emotional through-line saved it for me. As did the switch up of her weapons during that act - so meaningful!
posted by Deoridhe at 12:48 AM on June 13, 2017 [1 favorite]

I was wrong about Wonder Woman being a Smurfette and I have never been so glad to be wrong. The grounding in Themyscira, the interactions with Etta Candy, the powerful figures of so many Amazons in such a small space - blown away. I'm simply blown away.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:08 AM on June 14, 2017 [1 favorite]