Schmucks Like Us
May 30, 2017 7:06 AM Subscribe
But when the One Big Thing is gone, there is a double loss — the thing that defined your life is now in the past, and, at the very moment when your income and public profile both are likely to be heading south, you face the real crisis: You have done something extraordinary, but it is finished, and now you do not know what to do.--Kevin D. Williamson on Allen Iverson, Tiger Woods, and us
Yeah, that's a really great piece:
Also, too, Woods is claiming that it was prescription meds.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:45 AM on May 30, 2017 [31 favorites]
You see this all the time: celebrities going broke because they just don’t know what things cost or how much money they really have, rich and powerful people flummoxed by the simplest things in life and unable to adapt to ordinary social norms, famous people who do not have any friends. I suspect that if Hillary Rodham Clinton tried to get from her house to Bill de Blasio’s on the Metro North and the subway, she’d end up in the ICU. And whom would they call on her behalf? Her husband?In a piece that ostensibly had nothing to do with politics, Williamson couldn't resist taking a cheap (and very likely wrong) shot. This is the same writer who questioned Gabby Giffords' credentials to urge for gun control.
Also, too, Woods is claiming that it was prescription meds.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:45 AM on May 30, 2017 [31 favorites]
In a piece that ostensibly had nothing to do with politics, Williamson couldn't resist taking a cheap (and very likely wrong) shot.
Eh, I don't begrudge him that one. It gains a little added attention and maybe a smile from his audience and isn't really much of a dig given the larger premise and seeming built in assumption of general competence needed by Clinton to make her alleged inability to navigate traffic exceptional.
I do wish, however, he had also included some famous white athletes or celebrities who went broke or screwed up after their moment of fame as some of his audience may be inclined to write off the appeal for sympathy on racial grounds. It isn't like there is any lack of choices among the rich and famous of all races for this sort of problem, and in the US rich and famous does still strongly favor whites, so a bit wider net might have been better here. I accept that Iverson is the case he knew best and Woods the most recent incident, and the tone sympathetic, so I won't push the issue as being a Williamson flaw absent any other information.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:09 AM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Eh, I don't begrudge him that one. It gains a little added attention and maybe a smile from his audience and isn't really much of a dig given the larger premise and seeming built in assumption of general competence needed by Clinton to make her alleged inability to navigate traffic exceptional.
I do wish, however, he had also included some famous white athletes or celebrities who went broke or screwed up after their moment of fame as some of his audience may be inclined to write off the appeal for sympathy on racial grounds. It isn't like there is any lack of choices among the rich and famous of all races for this sort of problem, and in the US rich and famous does still strongly favor whites, so a bit wider net might have been better here. I accept that Iverson is the case he knew best and Woods the most recent incident, and the tone sympathetic, so I won't push the issue as being a Williamson flaw absent any other information.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:09 AM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
In a piece that ostensibly had nothing to do with politics, Williamson couldn't resist taking a cheap (and very likely wrong) shot.
I mean, yeah, it's still the National Review, but still.
posted by dersins at 8:10 AM on May 30, 2017
I mean, yeah, it's still the National Review, but still.
posted by dersins at 8:10 AM on May 30, 2017
In a piece that ostensibly had nothing to do with politics, Williamson couldn't resist taking a cheap (and very likely wrong) shot.
I don't really think this is a cheap shot. It's probably wrong, but the ICU thing is clearly an exaggeration (I doubt even Williamson believes that literally) and it's not that unbelievable generally. When is the last time she's had to do stuff like that on her own? Thirty years ago? More? Bill was governor of Arkansas by then. While she'd probably make it to de Blasio's in one piece, I do think she'd almost certainly be flummoxed by the task, and not on account of any incompetence on her part.
posted by breakin' the law at 9:02 AM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
I don't really think this is a cheap shot. It's probably wrong, but the ICU thing is clearly an exaggeration (I doubt even Williamson believes that literally) and it's not that unbelievable generally. When is the last time she's had to do stuff like that on her own? Thirty years ago? More? Bill was governor of Arkansas by then. While she'd probably make it to de Blasio's in one piece, I do think she'd almost certainly be flummoxed by the task, and not on account of any incompetence on her part.
posted by breakin' the law at 9:02 AM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Someone will bring this up--there is a great 30 for 30 documentary called "Broke" that was on Netflix, last I checked. It covers this exact subject. Human brains don't settle in before our late 20s and most pro athletes are pro before that, and most guys have careers that are already finished before then. One of the recurring themes is that this doesn't just happen with the big names, you'll have guys who maybe get 3-4 years out of playing in the NFL/NBA/whatever, make a few million before they're 30, and then they're 40, broke, no career skills that will net an income anything near what they once made, and everything hurts from the brutal demands of their sport.
It shouldn't be much of a surprise that this is pretty common. A number of pro teams (especially in the NBA, the NFL, the really high-profile ones) have begun to try to stave off this exact trend via mandatory financial planning classes for all new recruits.
posted by Anonymous at 9:06 AM on May 30, 2017
It shouldn't be much of a surprise that this is pretty common. A number of pro teams (especially in the NBA, the NFL, the really high-profile ones) have begun to try to stave off this exact trend via mandatory financial planning classes for all new recruits.
posted by Anonymous at 9:06 AM on May 30, 2017
Also: It is 99.999% certain that Hillary Clinton is smarter and cannier than you or me or the average person, and thousands and thousands and thousands of average people from the Midwest with absolutely no public transit experience visit NYC and DC and other subway-dependent cities and somehow muddle through without becoming lost in the tunnels or having a breakdown. Sure, spats, stress, and you might miss a stop, but they do it. I think she'd be fine.
posted by Anonymous at 9:12 AM on May 30, 2017
posted by Anonymous at 9:12 AM on May 30, 2017
A number of pro teams (especially in the NBA, the NFL, the really high-profile ones) have begun to try to stave off this exact trend via mandatory financial planning classes for all new recruits.
Are they? That's terrific -- I was about to make a snarky sarcastic remark about how GREAT it is that pro sports is TAKING STEPS about this, when by golly at least some of them actually are. It's a step, anyway.
posted by JanetLand at 9:25 AM on May 30, 2017
Are they? That's terrific -- I was about to make a snarky sarcastic remark about how GREAT it is that pro sports is TAKING STEPS about this, when by golly at least some of them actually are. It's a step, anyway.
posted by JanetLand at 9:25 AM on May 30, 2017
Professional athletes often do not find themselves surrounded by the best people — and shaping all of those conflicting and terrifying forces into a happy, well-adjusted man would have been a challenge even if he had been. Making good men is hard: Neither the Marine Corps nor the Catholic Church nor the Boy Scouts has a perfect record on that front. Neither does any other institution, or any family, for that matter.
I'm interested in how little agency Iverson and Woods, and other men (everyone mentioned was male; is this a male-only struggle?), are granted so little agency, here. It's like boys are just raw material for (very conservative) institutions to shape into.... something. Is it my liberal bias that makes me scoff at the very notion that the Marine Corps, Catholic Church, or the Boy Scouts are the go-to power structures to produce a "happy, well-adjusted man"?
(And, as a Midwesterner who has managed to use public transit on visits to the big, terrifying, dangerous city, I'm 100% confident that the former Senator from the State of New York can navigate the Metro.)
posted by BrashTech at 9:37 AM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm interested in how little agency Iverson and Woods, and other men (everyone mentioned was male; is this a male-only struggle?), are granted so little agency, here. It's like boys are just raw material for (very conservative) institutions to shape into.... something. Is it my liberal bias that makes me scoff at the very notion that the Marine Corps, Catholic Church, or the Boy Scouts are the go-to power structures to produce a "happy, well-adjusted man"?
(And, as a Midwesterner who has managed to use public transit on visits to the big, terrifying, dangerous city, I'm 100% confident that the former Senator from the State of New York can navigate the Metro.)
posted by BrashTech at 9:37 AM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is a surprisingly nuanced and sensitive piece for the National Review.
No one is more surprised than I am that I posted a Williamson piece from National Review to MetaFilter, but I found it to be exemplary in its empathy. I've really been annoyed by Williamson before, but not enough to dismiss him when he's thoughtful.
The Clinton aside didn't seem like an insult to me, more a comment thar her reputation for hyper-competence in other areas doesn't necessarily translate to more prosaic tasks. Honestly, it would have bugged me more if he had chosen Trump as an example, because that would have implied that there is some area where Trump is competent.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 9:44 AM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
No one is more surprised than I am that I posted a Williamson piece from National Review to MetaFilter, but I found it to be exemplary in its empathy. I've really been annoyed by Williamson before, but not enough to dismiss him when he's thoughtful.
The Clinton aside didn't seem like an insult to me, more a comment thar her reputation for hyper-competence in other areas doesn't necessarily translate to more prosaic tasks. Honestly, it would have bugged me more if he had chosen Trump as an example, because that would have implied that there is some area where Trump is competent.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 9:44 AM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Mod note: This is NOT A POLITICS THREAD and needs to stay that way. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:01 AM on May 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:01 AM on May 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
Also, too, Woods is claiming that it was prescription meds.
Apparently the police are corroborating the fact that he had no alcohol in his system when he was found asleep behind the wheel. Given that Woods had fusion surgery on his back about a month ago I'd say the prescription painkillers excuse makes sense.
posted by rocket88 at 10:15 AM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Apparently the police are corroborating the fact that he had no alcohol in his system when he was found asleep behind the wheel. Given that Woods had fusion surgery on his back about a month ago I'd say the prescription painkillers excuse makes sense.
posted by rocket88 at 10:15 AM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
The article seemed focused on money, but the more interesting question is what do you do after you've peaked? When you know your greatest achievement is behind you, it can be really depressing. How do you turn this around?
posted by WaterAndPixels at 10:18 AM on May 30, 2017
posted by WaterAndPixels at 10:18 AM on May 30, 2017
Not a Tiger Woods or a golf fan, and I am aware of the scandal that brought him down several years ago, but I was disgusted yesterday when he briefly became a meme on Twitter.
posted by My Dad at 10:43 AM on May 30, 2017
posted by My Dad at 10:43 AM on May 30, 2017
"When you know your greatest achievement is behind you, it can be really depressing. How do you turn this around?"
I dunno, enjoy life?
I moved to the US almost 9 years ago but I will never understand why people here need to justify their existence with benchmarks and external validation.
Like take up a hobbie without a secret intention to 1. Turn it into a business or 2. Be the best hobbyist that ever hobbied.
Learn to be happily mediocre like the rest of us, American people.
posted by Tarumba at 10:55 AM on May 30, 2017 [21 favorites]
I dunno, enjoy life?
I moved to the US almost 9 years ago but I will never understand why people here need to justify their existence with benchmarks and external validation.
Like take up a hobbie without a secret intention to 1. Turn it into a business or 2. Be the best hobbyist that ever hobbied.
Learn to be happily mediocre like the rest of us, American people.
posted by Tarumba at 10:55 AM on May 30, 2017 [21 favorites]
"When you know your greatest achievement is behind you, it can be really depressing. How do you turn this around?"
This is a question I often wonder about when it comes to musicians who had their moments of glory years, if not decades, ago. How do they keep going on, and more to the point, why do they? This is all they know, which is both inspiring and depressing to consider. It's one major reason why some musicians feel the need to chase every trend even if it means shredding their image or dignity in the process (see most psychedelic or prog-rock bands' output in the 1980s for numerous examples). It's also a major reason why other musicians have frozen themselves in time so as not to go through the dignity-shredding process (or, perhaps, because they had and were mortified at what they had to do to stay relevant--again, see above example).
Nowadays, I think it is much easier for musicians of a different era to keep touring as long as their health holds up. There's an audience that grew up with these songs and albums, so if both listener and performer are relegated to senior circuits or "dad rock," it's still a paycheck and there's still adulation that goes both ways. Athletes don't have that option, unfortunately, because there are few options for senior professional circuits apart from golf and tennis. Once you've peaked athletically, you are yesterday's news. The adulation you've had for most of your life is now gone, and your skills aren't the same as they once were. Financial planning by the pro leagues will only go so far to compensate for the equally-necessary psychological planning once your glory days are over.
posted by stannate at 11:25 AM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is a question I often wonder about when it comes to musicians who had their moments of glory years, if not decades, ago. How do they keep going on, and more to the point, why do they? This is all they know, which is both inspiring and depressing to consider. It's one major reason why some musicians feel the need to chase every trend even if it means shredding their image or dignity in the process (see most psychedelic or prog-rock bands' output in the 1980s for numerous examples). It's also a major reason why other musicians have frozen themselves in time so as not to go through the dignity-shredding process (or, perhaps, because they had and were mortified at what they had to do to stay relevant--again, see above example).
Nowadays, I think it is much easier for musicians of a different era to keep touring as long as their health holds up. There's an audience that grew up with these songs and albums, so if both listener and performer are relegated to senior circuits or "dad rock," it's still a paycheck and there's still adulation that goes both ways. Athletes don't have that option, unfortunately, because there are few options for senior professional circuits apart from golf and tennis. Once you've peaked athletically, you are yesterday's news. The adulation you've had for most of your life is now gone, and your skills aren't the same as they once were. Financial planning by the pro leagues will only go so far to compensate for the equally-necessary psychological planning once your glory days are over.
posted by stannate at 11:25 AM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
I dunno, enjoy life?
If you've been drilled into associating your own self worth with success in a given field since you were a wee lad/lass, and actually succeed beyond any previous measure of success ... hey, guess what? That activity becomes pretty much the only way you have to experience joy. When it goes away, you're looking at a lifetime of conditioning and neural wiring that stands against you.
Being judged my external measurements is a human failing, not a particularly American one.
posted by jpolchlopek at 11:27 AM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
If you've been drilled into associating your own self worth with success in a given field since you were a wee lad/lass, and actually succeed beyond any previous measure of success ... hey, guess what? That activity becomes pretty much the only way you have to experience joy. When it goes away, you're looking at a lifetime of conditioning and neural wiring that stands against you.
Being judged my external measurements is a human failing, not a particularly American one.
posted by jpolchlopek at 11:27 AM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
That's a tall order, Tarumba, I can tell you. Although obviously I don't have anything like the success of a Tiger Woods, I have defined myself by a single skill -- writing -- and I have come to the completion of a couple of my goals only to find that the hole inside isn't anywhere near full. I have to be something else and it's very difficult to grasp what that should be. I get a lot of suggestions from my internalized misogyny, depression and anxiety, but they are not, on the whole, very good ones.
Once my dad asked me thoughtfully, when I was in college, "Do you write at all?" He had no idea. We are close and he loves me but (because I can be incredibly private about these things) he had no idea. I wasn't upset with him at all, I was just completely bewildered at the idea of me without the thing that I do. What kind of a person could anyone conceive of me as being if they didn't know I was a writer? And how could they feel affection for me? I was -- I still am -- unable to imagine what I am without that.
I was lucky; I have loving parents who didn't see me as a machine, even when I saw myself as one. How much worse must it be for a Tiger Woods, who was holding a golf club when he was shorter than a standard one?
posted by Countess Elena at 11:35 AM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Once my dad asked me thoughtfully, when I was in college, "Do you write at all?" He had no idea. We are close and he loves me but (because I can be incredibly private about these things) he had no idea. I wasn't upset with him at all, I was just completely bewildered at the idea of me without the thing that I do. What kind of a person could anyone conceive of me as being if they didn't know I was a writer? And how could they feel affection for me? I was -- I still am -- unable to imagine what I am without that.
I was lucky; I have loving parents who didn't see me as a machine, even when I saw myself as one. How much worse must it be for a Tiger Woods, who was holding a golf club when he was shorter than a standard one?
posted by Countess Elena at 11:35 AM on May 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
The article seemed focused on money, but the more interesting question is what do you do after you've peaked? When you know your greatest achievement is behind you, it can be really depressing. How do you turn this around?
Yeah. Or not even turn it around, but be in a place where you can live with your "greatest" achievements being behind you.
Reading the article in this post reminded me of something from that Secret History of Tiger Woods article, posted to the blue a while back:
Jordan talks carefully, with no bravado or swagger, trying to say something important and true and empathetic -- maybe hoping his friend will read it? -- without crowding Tiger or saying too much. Jordan struggled and flailed in the years after he quit basketball, feeling like he'd hard-wired himself with all of these urges that now worked against any hope of future happiness. For years, he just tried to pretend like he wasn't lost. Time stretched out in front of him endlessly, and this same emptiness awaits Tiger.
His whole life was geared towards getting into this thing, getting to that level. By all accounts, his father was wrapped up in turning him into the world's top golfer - not figuring out how his son would move on when he stopped being that thing (whether through age, injury or anything else). And this is a thing that I'd speculate few young people who have dreams of becoming professional athletes would want to think about in any case, even in the absence of overbearing parental pressure. But any sports career eventually has to come to an end, regardless of who calls the play.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:44 AM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yeah. Or not even turn it around, but be in a place where you can live with your "greatest" achievements being behind you.
Reading the article in this post reminded me of something from that Secret History of Tiger Woods article, posted to the blue a while back:
Jordan talks carefully, with no bravado or swagger, trying to say something important and true and empathetic -- maybe hoping his friend will read it? -- without crowding Tiger or saying too much. Jordan struggled and flailed in the years after he quit basketball, feeling like he'd hard-wired himself with all of these urges that now worked against any hope of future happiness. For years, he just tried to pretend like he wasn't lost. Time stretched out in front of him endlessly, and this same emptiness awaits Tiger.
His whole life was geared towards getting into this thing, getting to that level. By all accounts, his father was wrapped up in turning him into the world's top golfer - not figuring out how his son would move on when he stopped being that thing (whether through age, injury or anything else). And this is a thing that I'd speculate few young people who have dreams of becoming professional athletes would want to think about in any case, even in the absence of overbearing parental pressure. But any sports career eventually has to come to an end, regardless of who calls the play.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:44 AM on May 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
schroedinger: " One of the recurring themes is that this doesn't just happen with the big names, you'll have guys who maybe get 3-4 years out of playing in the NFL/NBA/whatever, make a few million before they're 30, and then they're 40, broke, no career skills that will net an income anything near what they once made, and everything hurts from the brutal demands of their sport."
And hardly a problem only for athletes. Lots of trade workers experience the same thing (right down to the worn out body and career ending injury) and even though the high isn't nearly as big the low is just as low.
posted by Mitheral at 12:12 PM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
And hardly a problem only for athletes. Lots of trade workers experience the same thing (right down to the worn out body and career ending injury) and even though the high isn't nearly as big the low is just as low.
posted by Mitheral at 12:12 PM on May 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
I moved to the US almost 9 years ago but I will never understand why people here need to justify their existence with benchmarks and external validation.
The Protestant work ethic is a helluva drug.
For most of the country, "Get busy living or get busy dying" is more than a refrain from Morgan Freeman.
posted by Mayor West at 12:19 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Protestant work ethic is a helluva drug.
For most of the country, "Get busy living or get busy dying" is more than a refrain from Morgan Freeman.
posted by Mayor West at 12:19 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think this is why a lot of excellent students flail after college ... you've spent 20ish years of your life pushing hard, driving, succeeding, optimizing to excel at one particular game (school) and being recognized for it with grades, scholarships, Ivy League admissions ... and then you run out of school and aren't quite sure what next (which leads to a shitton of I'll advised trips to grad and law school). It's hard to transition into full-time work which is a quite unlike school, and the markers of success are a lot more diffuse and confusing once you're out of school. Quarterlife crises everywhere!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:35 PM on May 30, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:35 PM on May 30, 2017 [12 favorites]
This was a well-written piece, but my immediate and admittedly uncharitable reaction was "Kevin Williamson discovers empathy and it's for Tiger Woods?" The writer's corpus inclines me to think that this is less a call to empathy than a caution against envy - which is a true and necessary warning that happens to be useful for the elite.
posted by Svejk at 1:45 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Svejk at 1:45 PM on May 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
> The writer's corpus inclines me to think that this is less a call to empathy than a caution against envy - which is a true and necessary warning that happens to be useful for the elite.
Personal Responsibilty: Not for the Rich, Please
Personal Responsibilty: Not for the Rich, Please
I shouldn't mock Williamson. I think there's a bit of truth to what he says. But I see that when he's writing about people who aren't rich, his message is: Suck it up and come to terms with the breaks life has dealt you, and don't expect much sympathy from society:posted by tonycpsu at 4:05 PM on May 30, 2017 [12 favorites]
Here's Williamson last fall, writing about people who don't have the money or talent of Tiger Woods: [...]I myself recently was criticized as personifying an “unfeeling” conservatism; if by “unfeeling” we mean “unsentimental,” then I do hope so.... This is the way things are. It is not the case that you are on your own — we have families, and communities, and social-welfare programs that ensure you aren’t — but that you are your own, an autonomous individual with responsibility for, and to, himself.If you're poor and downtrodden, you need a kick in the ass to remind you that you're ultimately responsible for your own well-being. Yes, you'd have a better life if you had extraordinary talent or a strong, supportive family, but if it's obvious that you don't, it's high time you grew up and learned to live with that fact.
But if you used to have extraordinary talent, Williamson is ready to shed tears for you. It's okay if you screw up. You were an ubermensch, and if, sadly, you're not one of "the lucky ones" who "have great marriages and happy families, faith, community, and friendship to take the place of" success, then Williamson's tears will be copious, and he'll set out to shame anyone who criticizes you. Because, yes, Americans need to learn personal responsibility ... just not elite Americans.
tonycpsu, that was exactly my reading. I'm glad I'm not the only person to interpret it that way.
This piece belongs to that trend of reminding the masses that they are undeserving schmucks whose envy of the elite is yet another demonstration of their unworthiness. Woods and especially Iverson are just useful decoys that will train people to respond sympathetically next time Rush Limbaugh is caught with a suitcase full of oxycontin.
posted by Svejk at 1:48 AM on May 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
This piece belongs to that trend of reminding the masses that they are undeserving schmucks whose envy of the elite is yet another demonstration of their unworthiness. Woods and especially Iverson are just useful decoys that will train people to respond sympathetically next time Rush Limbaugh is caught with a suitcase full of oxycontin.
posted by Svejk at 1:48 AM on May 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
That's a great way to put it. The thing about Iverson, who I loved watching and followed very closely growing up in Philly, is that he was a product of the kind of justice system conservatives want, where young black men -- even ones who won't go on to NBA stardom -- are locked up for crimes they "probably didn't commit" as Williamson concedes is the case with Iverson. The only thing that kept him from being just another nameless casualty of that system was his talent on the court -- like Biggie said, "either you're slinging crack rock or you got a wicked jump shot." Who knows how many Iversons never got a chance to show sufficient societal value to the Kevin Williamsons of the world?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:43 AM on May 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 8:43 AM on May 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
Learn to be happily mediocre like the rest of us, American people.
Man, people sure look at you funny when you do though. I haven't let it stop me so far, but it's actually...really rather alienating. People are legit shocked that I don't at least *pretend* to be hyperambitious and hyperaccomplished.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:01 PM on May 31, 2017
Man, people sure look at you funny when you do though. I haven't let it stop me so far, but it's actually...really rather alienating. People are legit shocked that I don't at least *pretend* to be hyperambitious and hyperaccomplished.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:01 PM on May 31, 2017
Yeah. I voluntarily stopped working last fall, and people definitely do not know how to react when they learn this.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:49 PM on June 3, 2017
posted by Chrysostom at 9:49 PM on June 3, 2017
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posted by dersins at 7:17 AM on May 30, 2017 [6 favorites]