Do short men get short-changed?
April 30, 2002 5:21 AM Subscribe

Do short men get short-changed? Any real life experiences to back up or refute this study? I found this very interesting: "If a teenage sense of social exclusion influences future earnings, it may have great implications for youngsters from minority groups."
posted by bittennails (65 comments total)

in more ways than financially. i'll never forget the smug look of the 6 foot+ deputy sitting in his Crown Vic cruiser, telling 5 foot 5 me in my Saturn that the snowbank in no way impeded vision at the intersection as he finished writing my ticket and the tow truck rattled away with the remains of my car.
posted by quonsar at 5:56 AM on April 30, 2002

In the past 13 presidential elections, the taller man has won ten times. George Bush junior is a rare exception.

f'ing short-ass Nader...
posted by machaus at 6:07 AM on April 30, 2002

I am 5'4".

I can't say that I feel that my stature has negatively affected my income level, since any salary survey I look at for my job description in this region (Boston) indicates that I am right at the median.

I can say, though, that the underlyng implication of this study -- that short men are treated with less respect than tall men -- is pretty well validated by my experiences. Men in general, and taller men in particular, quite literally "look down" on short men, and the psychological effect can be profound for both. There is an aspect of "adult vs. child" to interactions where one person has a height advantage, and the connotation of height as a symbol of power translates readily to those interactions.

Generally, I don't have any resentment about being short, but one thing that always stings is when I meet someone for the first time and I can see them actively trying to stifle a laugh. It happens more often than you think, and I always feel diminished as a human being when I notice it.
posted by briank at 6:19 AM on April 30, 2002

The last time I read anything about this it focused on adult physicality, and it concluded that tall paid better, unless you're fat.
posted by NortonDC at 7:00 AM on April 30, 2002

I'm a short guy too, and I can also attest to the sting of being "overlooked". It sucks. Thank god we have giant penises though.
posted by Samsonov14 at 7:21 AM on April 30, 2002

robert reich seems to be doing okay :) i think it would be cool to have a little guy as governor!
posted by kliuless at 7:29 AM on April 30, 2002

Gentlemen: First off, there are ladies out there who prefer short guys. I'm one of them. I can also attest to Samsonov14's claims...

Did anyone else find this article a bit lacking? I don't see what correllation they're making between a male's height @ 16 and income. Current height and income; sure (because I'm sure there's prejudices), but @16?

16 year-olds don't opt out of joining sports because they're short, they opt out because they don't want to get dogged mercilessly by the typical high-school goons. School sucks for everyone who falls out of the range of average.
posted by xena at 7:35 AM on April 30, 2002

On a sort of related tangent, a few years ago, I was playing around with different searches on one of the dating sites. I noticed that women most often said they wanted a guy who was at least 5' 7" or 6' 2". Whenever they wanted somebody who was in the 5' range, the inch measurement was generally an odd number, and when they wanted somebody in the 6' range, the inch was always an even number.

I always found that interesting.
posted by willnot at 7:49 AM on April 30, 2002

Men who were relatively short youths were less likely to take part in social activities, such as athletics, than their taller peers; yet sport and clubs may boost self-esteem and inculcate valuable social skills.

At 16 I was 6' 2" and I was very shy at the time. I contributed my shyness to my height. I never stood up straight and I spoke very softly but people still singled me out. Some would make fun of my height and others would be intimidated and then there were the 98% that always asked, "Do you play football?" I did not participate in any social activities.

I have come out of my shell since college and am very social. I have noticed that when my boss, who is 5' 2", and I meet with new clients they always talk to me and look me in the eye and ask me questions. He is usually ignored but he is the one with 25+ years advertising experience compared to my 2.
posted by bunktone at 9:43 AM on April 30, 2002

I agree, short men are (in general) given less respect than tall men, especially by strangers.

However, one's confidence can affect others' perceptions of one's height. More than once, people have said to me, "Oh, you're not that short... you're, what, 5'9"?" I'm 5'5". I just never let it get to me.

In high school, I was also 5'5"... and I was involved in social (if sometimes geeky) activities such as theater and Model UN. And I'm reasonably successful now, but I don't think any of it has to do with my height (or lack thereof). I suppose later in life (I'm 26) it might affect me if I decide to start up my own company or go into sales or something....
posted by gohlkus at 9:53 AM on April 30, 2002

My stature has not affected my income at all as far as I can tell; I have a great job at a higher-than-average salary for the area that I live in. My cow-orkers tease me about my height from time to time, but I can dish it right back (and do).

School was a very painful experience. I grew up hearing such delightful epiphets as "fucking munchkin" frequently thrown my way, usually from jocks. You can deal with this in a couple of ways: humor, ignore them, or react violently. I always chose the first response.

As for dating, I found that almost all of the women who were my size had a thing for men who were in the 6-ft range and most of the women who liked me were in the 5'8"-5'10" range. Weird. My wife and I are of equal height and our kids won't be breaking any records.

One thing I find amusing is when little kids come up to me and say, "You're short!" When I point out to them that they are actually shorter than I am, they invariably say, "Uh uh, I am not!"
posted by MrBaliHai at 9:57 AM on April 30, 2002

I think there's a part of the puzzle missing. As bunktone illuded to, I think there are quite a few of us who were taller than normal but were still very shy and socially uncomfortable. In my case it was because that, while yes i was very near my current 6'4" when I was 16, I grew very fast in a short period of time to get there. This meant that I was tall but "goofy" (that was the most popular expression) in both looks and coordination. Bescause of this, I was picked on, called an "oaf", that sort of thing.

That being said, I'm not expecting anyone's pity. I soon gained coordination and have sort of "grown into" my height in the last nine years. I too have noticed that when I'm with my mostly shorter friends at a bar or a restaurant, I get spoken to first and more often by the waiter or bartender.

I've also know guite a few girls over the years, including my fiancee, who have told me they don't want to be with a guy shorter than them. So I'm very much thankful for my height, I just would rather it be about 6'0" than 6'4" so I could still rider rollercoasters or drive more fuel efficient cars.
posted by srw12 at 10:16 AM on April 30, 2002

tall girls for tall guys and shorties for shorties, i say.
it never works out that way.
posted by moz at 10:18 AM on April 30, 2002

The post I was writing got a bit out of hand, so I stuck it here so it wouldn't take up such a big block of the comments page.
posted by hob at 10:38 AM on April 30, 2002

Note that most CEOs are tall men.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:41 AM on April 30, 2002

Like srw12, i (at 6' 3") would gladly donate two or three inches to someone who wanted it. And moz, you're right, my girlfriend is only 5'3". Makes slow dancing difficult, but every girl I've ever dated has been 5'6" or shorter, so I guess i like the short chicks.
posted by Ufez Jones at 10:41 AM on April 30, 2002

I'm 6'3" and have never been aware of any significant social benefit or detriment to my height, although I am aware of the studies which suggest that there should be. Well, there is the being able to reach things on high shelves thing.

I know there was a previous thread on this topic, but can't find it to link to for the life of me.
posted by rushmc at 10:41 AM on April 30, 2002

I would love to see a study on how women's height effects their earning potential. In fact, I’d just like to see any study on how height impacts a woman’s life. As a 6’5” woman slagging away in corporate America, I know I get treated differently than my fellow, much-shorter, female co-workers. I’ve also seen that taller women in business are seen as colder, bitchier and more masculine by their shorter counterparts. Why in the hell doesn’t anyone study tall women?
posted by jodic at 10:43 AM on April 30, 2002

I study tall women every chance I get.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:46 AM on April 30, 2002

I always wanted to date a woman bigger that me so that I could be the one who gets tossed around in bed for once. :)
posted by bunktone at 10:58 AM on April 30, 2002

I'm quite tall(6'1")and my mother always said "At least you're tall". Can't figure out that "at least" but...
posted by MiguelCardoso at 11:06 AM on April 30, 2002

I'm a bit over 6'1", and I just got back from lunch. The guy behind me was maybe 5'2", and he was constantly staring up at me with a stupid grin.

I think I'm somebody's fantasy tonight.
posted by NortonDC at 11:22 AM on April 30, 2002

Ugh. One of the worst abuse of stats I've seen. I mean, come on -- height at 16 correlates pretty well with adult height, even though many males continue growing past that age. I have rarely heard of someone who, short at 16, suddenly became extra-tall by 20. Understandably, heights at earlier ages may vary greatly with respect to the adult height.

I would really like to look at their analysis to see the correlations between height at 16-yrs and adult height. I'm going to take a look at their paper later. Gotta meeting.
posted by meep at 11:26 AM on April 30, 2002

Hmmm I must say as a 5 foot, 7 inch gal that I love my height. You tall ones are never TOO tall (yah! heels!) and those deemed shorter are usually somewhere around my height or if they are shorter, then they are deliciously feisty. You have to LOVE the feisty ones.

"I'm a short guy too, and I can also attest to the sting of being "overlooked". It sucks. Thank god we have giant penises though."

They do?? Hmmm... You know, it is not size that matters here folks... *wink*

And yes, where is the study on women I ask??? Good question jodic.
posted by gloege at 11:50 AM on April 30, 2002

Also interesting is what height and size does to how we walk past one another. as two people approach one another from opposite directions, one or both of the walkers must turn their shoulders a bit to avoid a collision. Short/small people move more and are expected to move more. Taller and larger people have the right of way. After noticing this in High School (I was 5 foot 8, 135 lbs at the time), I began experimenting with moving out of the way less. Within the space of a week, I'd almost gotten in two fights, and had had numerous collisions, of which I was blamed for most...

Feel free to experiment on your own. If you do, I hope that short and small also equals fast as it does in my case...
posted by kahboom at 11:56 AM on April 30, 2002

Reminds me of what my high school football coach told me: "yhbc [of course, he used my real name], you're not big, but you're slow."
posted by yhbc at 12:24 PM on April 30, 2002

I study tall women every chance I get.

men always say they love tall women, but they never really know what to do with taller-than-them women.
posted by jodic at 12:33 PM on April 30, 2002

my wife and I--barefoot--are about 5'8". With girl shoes she is usually at least an inch or two taller than I when out in public, I like it.

my height/ages:

4'10"/14
5'1/15
5'4"/16
5'6"/17
5'7"/18
5'8"/20
[after age 30, height isn't interesting...its Weight...from 20 to 30 i only grew sidewise.]]

I was the shortest kid in every school until i hit the blessed 5 foot mark. Shorty. Shrimp were my usual names. Great feeling to finally tower over the short girls i had liked when young...they who scorned me for taller boys. Hah!
posted by th3ph17 at 12:47 PM on April 30, 2002

"men always say they love tall women, but they never really know what to do with taller-than-them women."

I'm not sure how to respond to that, jodic. You're actually shorter than I. :)
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:01 PM on April 30, 2002

Thank god we have giant penises though.

Carbonated beverages burn the nose.
posted by brittney at 1:11 PM on April 30, 2002

...height at 16 correlates pretty well with adult height, even though many males continue growing past that age. I have rarely heard of someone who, short at 16, suddenly became extra-tall by 20
I was 5'2" at 16. I didn't stop growing until sometime in my early twenties. I'm 6' now. No, not "extra-tall", but still quite a large difference.
posted by TimeFactor at 1:35 PM on April 30, 2002

"men always say they love tall women, but they never really know what to do with taller-than-them women."

I'm not sure how to respond to that, jodic. You're actually shorter than I. :)

Please forgive my boorish assumptions. As a member of the taller-than-normal tribe you probably know how unusual it is to run into people taller than you.
posted by jodic at 1:49 PM on April 30, 2002

I had the same tall-guy shyness in highschool that others here speak of. I'm 'only' 6'1", but I grew up in an area where this was uncommonly tall. I still have a bit of a slouch. I definitely had a body image that wasn't even close to reality, and always wished that I was shorter.

I've grown out of it now, and even though my girlfriend seems taller than me, with heels and a better posture, we're actually the same height.

To answer another question, my father is 6'1 as well, but at 16 he was about 5'3. Good ole wartime England diet, I guess.
posted by sauril at 1:51 PM on April 30, 2002

Thank god we have giant penises though.

Well, sure it looks big, but only 'cause the rest of you is so ittybitty.
posted by Opus Dark at 1:51 PM on April 30, 2002

"Well, sure it looks big, but only 'cause the rest of you is so ittybitty."

Funny, I usually use the same excuse, in reverse, for why mine appears so tiny.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:52 PM on April 30, 2002

As a 6' 2" man, I can tell you that being tall is overrated. Theres never enough legroom on trains or buses and people are always asking you to get stuff off high shelves and change light bulbs.

xena- Gentlemen: First off, there are ladies out there who prefer short guys. I'm one of them.

Rats.

See what I mean...
posted by jonmc at 6:04 PM on April 30, 2002

jonmc, there are still plenty of ladies who like tall men. I always said I'd never date anyone shorter than my mom (5'10"). You'd be surprised how much that limits one's dating pool.
posted by jodic at 6:09 PM on April 30, 2002

You like tall men and your blog is named after a replacements song!

jodic- will you marry me?
posted by jonmc at 6:50 PM on April 30, 2002

Can you handle a woman that's taller than you?
posted by jodic at 7:02 PM on April 30, 2002

sure, I'll bring climbing gear...
posted by jonmc at 7:04 PM on April 30, 2002

jodic- will you marry me?

Hey, she's even got a couple of pics on her site- back off, jonmc, I saw her first! :)

Regarding the tall women thing (which somehow became the topic of this thread): I don't know any guys- at least, that I'm aware of- who are anti- tall women, and many who think that a taller woman can be particularly attractive (I'm talkin' 'bout you, Lauren Jackson!).

But conversely, most tall women it seems- including jodic- are adamantly opposed to average to below-average height guys. At 5'11", I don't really think of myself as "short", but it seems most any woman who's 5' 10" or taller would never even consider dating anyone who isn't considerably taller than herself.

So really, the crass superficiality and obsession with appearances exists, as always, solely on the part of the chicks. ;)
posted by hincandenza at 7:34 PM on April 30, 2002

But conversely, most tall women it seems- including jodic- are adamantly opposed to average to below-average height guys.

It's mostly a comfort level thing. I am not comfortable with men who are anymore than 6-7 inches shorter than me. I know it's shallow and wretched, but it can't be helped. Societal norms have been ingrained in us since we were wee ones. It just seems the man is supposed to be taller than the woman.

This works both ways, I know. Men are uncomfortable around women who are much taller than them. Oddly enough I have found men in the 6-6'4" range are much more uncomfortable about me being taller than them then men who are used to being shorter ones in the bunch.

interesting aside. . . aren't the incandenza's (sans mario) quite tall?
posted by jodic at 8:12 PM on April 30, 2002

yes jodic, but Don Gately's even bigger...
posted by jonmc at 8:29 PM on April 30, 2002

try living in a culture where the average height is 5' 8".

i'm 6' 3". there isn't enough headroom on buses; if i'm standing either my neck is bent or i'm stooping/slouching. in bus seats i cannot sit with my legs straighforward for lack of room.

doorways and staircases sometimes present problems (at least they post signs reminding me to watch my head). finding a suitable office chair was difficult. clothing and shoes? i mostly buy what i need when i visit canada.

and my wife stands 5' 1". my most often heard comment, living in hong kong: you're so tall! yet despite the disadvantages, i love it here.
posted by bwg at 9:29 PM on April 30, 2002

I've been short all my life and developed the predictable "little man complex" in high-school, responding to any aggressor regardless of their size with willing abandon. I didn't win many of those early fights, but I didn't have to; once the crowd realized I didn't back down from antagonism, everyone left me well enough alone. In fact, everyone seemed to like me even more because of my (as gloege put it) fiestyness.

Though I'm still quite diminuitive, just like MrBaliHai, people often perceive me as taller than I actually am. I suspect this has entirely to do with my perception of myself. I've never found being shorter than average to have any disadvantages. If anything, civilization is far more comfortable for those of us with compact body types. You beanpoles have it tough.

I do, however, still have one inexplicable fetish when it comes to height: tall women, the taller the better. This is the only latent Napoleonic trait I can identify, having some primitive importance to my ego. Thankfully there are plenty of tall women who likewise dig short men.
posted by johnnyace at 4:54 AM on May 1, 2002

I'm 5'2" and pretty fucking bitter. I haven't partied (gone out to a bar, club, or party) in about 5 years. I just got sick and tired of women openly laughing at me - I've given up on life, basically. I know that I will never be a truly happy man.

"... one thing that always stings is when I meet someone for the first time and I can see them actively trying to stifle a laugh. It happens more often than you think, and I always feel diminished as a human being when I notice it."

I've had this happen to me on more than one occasion, but they weren't too successful with stifling their laughter. Shit like this makes me want to start killing people.
posted by Stumpy McGee at 5:16 AM on May 1, 2002

Looking at the study now, it's got pretty much everything there - and noted was the fact that, indeed, quite a few men do grow alot between 16 and 23.

Though they zoom in on income particularly (understandable if one is an economist), I find other statistically significant differences interesting (in the american data, it's table 4 if you look at the paper):
- men tall now, but short at 16, have a smaller percentage of having ever married (by mid-thirties) and a larger percentage of being divorced or separated. Hmmm.
- as well, men who are short at 16 but tall at 23 are shorter on average than men who were tall at 16 and 23. So I was right about there being correlations. Though a short man can catch up and surpass the median height, he still probably won't be as tall as men who were tall to begin with.

In fact, the results on marriage and height correlation are "more significant" - at the 5% level - than the wage difference, which is at the 10% level! Ha! What these significance levels mean is that if there were =really no difference= in the averages, from random chance you'd have less than a 5% of getting the result (or 10% chance). 5% and 10% are commonly used significance levels, because 20% is getting too likely for spurious results and 1% requires too much data to get good differences.

Anyway, I think it weak.
posted by meep at 7:07 AM on May 1, 2002

Anyway, I think it weak.

Maybe this particular study is weak, but who the fuck cares? Discrimination against the short male exists - that's what matters.
posted by Stumpy McGee at 8:15 AM on May 1, 2002

"I agree, short men are (in general) given less respect than tall men, especially by strangers."

These strangers need to be shot in the head. I think that dead strangers give short men lots of respect.
posted by Stumpy McGee at 8:23 AM on May 1, 2002

Also interesting is what height and size does to how we walk past one another. as two people approach one another from opposite directions, one or both of the walkers must turn their shoulders a bit to avoid a collision. Short/small people move more and are expected to move more. Taller and larger people have the right of way. After noticing this in High School (I was 5 foot 8, 135 lbs at the time), I began experimenting with moving out of the way less. Within the space of a week, I'd almost gotten in two fights, and had had numerous collisions, of which I was blamed for most...

Feel free to experiment on your own. If you do, I hope that short and small also equals fast as it does in my case...

This is SOOO true. Yet another reason to start killing people.
posted by Stumpy McGee at 8:32 AM on May 1, 2002

Shit like this makes me want to start killing people.
hese strangers need to be shot in the head. I think that dead strangers give short men lots of respect.

Wow. As Larry "Bubbles" Brown used to say, "Bitter? A tad." Maybe your attitude is contributing to the problem? Do you have a sense of humor about yourself? I find that takes the piss out of people pretty quickly when they can't find a way to push your buttons.

I'm the same height as you, and I don't get openly laughed at at bars or anywhere else. In fact, every time I go to a bar I seem to get hit on. Of course I live in a state that's full of cute, diminuitive, down-to-earth women who drink a lot of beer and don't all seem to have been brainwashed into desiring chiseled beefcake who will tower over and protect them.

Too bad I'm taken...=^D
posted by MrBaliHai at 8:43 AM on May 1, 2002

I'm a bit over 6'1", and I just got back from lunch. The guy behind me was maybe 5'2", and he was constantly staring up at me with a stupid grin.

I think I'm somebody's fantasy tonight.

It was a perfect fantasy - you didn't even whimper once.
posted by Stumpy McGee at 8:46 AM on May 1, 2002

Wow. As Larry "Bubbles" Brown used to say, "Bitter? A tad." Maybe your attitude is contributing to the problem?

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, bro.

Do you have a sense of humor about yourself? I find that takes the piss out of people pretty quickly when they can't find a way to push your buttons.

A sense of humor about myself? Why would I? Who do you think I am, Louie De Palma?

I'm the same height as you, and I don't get openly laughed at at bars or anywhere else. In fact, every time I go to a bar I seem to get hit on.

First, good for YOU.

Second, what kind of bars do you frequent? You didn't say who tries to pick you up, men or women.

Of course I live in a state that's full of cute, diminuitive, down-to-earth women who drink a lot of beer and don't all seem to have been brainwashed into desiring chiseled beefcake who will tower over and protect them.

Where the fuck is that? OompaLoompaLand?

Too bad I'm taken...=^D

See my question above regarding the bar comment.
posted by Stumpy McGee at 9:00 AM on May 1, 2002

"I grew up hearing such delightful epiphets as "fucking munchkin" frequently thrown my way, usually from jocks. You can deal with this in a couple of ways: humor, ignore them, or react violently. I always chose the first response."

Well, that's your choice. Others react and behave differently.
posted by Stumpy McGee at 9:17 AM on May 1, 2002

Stumpy, maybe we'll have the opportunity to pass each other some day and I'll demonstrate my own means of handling people who don't do their share of yielding: continue to walk, then come to a full stop just before contact, let the idiot bounce off, then point and laugh.

I never tire of that.
posted by NortonDC at 9:38 AM on May 1, 2002

MetaTalk
posted by briank at 10:09 AM on May 1, 2002

Jon: I'd make an exception for you dear, any time. Trust me on that one. Let me know if you ever make it out to the Rock Hall. But I digress..

Stumpy: Dude. Chill. Yes, I know it sucks and all but if you don't come to some terms with this, that means that the goons won. Do you really want that?
posted by xena at 7:47 PM on May 1, 2002

Dude, you're still given respect for being tall.

that may or may not be true. personally i don't care how tall or short someone is. it's totally irrelevant to whether or not i like someone.
posted by bwg at 9:03 PM on May 1, 2002

Jon: I'd make an exception for you dear, any time. Trust me on that one.

*Wipes sweat from brow, repeats "You are not single" to self*

*bangs head against desk*
posted by jonmc at 9:36 PM on May 1, 2002

"Stumpy, maybe we'll have the opportunity to pass each other some day and I'll demonstrate my own means of handling people who don't do their share of yielding: continue to walk, then come to a full stop just before contact, let the idiot bounce off, then point and laugh."

That's pretty damn funny. I might try this in the future.
posted by Stumpy McGee at 1:00 AM on May 2, 2002

"Stumpy: Dude. Chill. Yes, I know it sucks and all but if you don't come to some terms with this, that means that the goons won. Do you really want that?"

Xena,

Do you really think it sucks being a little guy? I don't have any problems with my size - it's the stupid motherfuckers who say stupid shit that I have problems with, not my height. I know, I know, you'll say that I shouldn't let that bother me - but how can you expect a man with self-respect to take that kind of shit from people? Sometimes it's healthy to vent, and that doesn't mean that I'm consumed with hatred 24/7. I'm sure you don't think a black man should tolerate some racist redneck talking smack about blacks - this isn't any different. Let me be HUMAN for a minute, OK?

Didn't you say that you like short men? As long as there are beautiful and kind ladies like you, it's still a wonderful world. I'm not that jaded, you know. I sometimes get angry, but who doesn't?

I don't want the "goons" to win - I want to be happy. Knowing that women like you exist reaffirms my desire to go out there and meet new people.

Thank you.
posted by Stumpy McGee at 2:20 AM on May 2, 2002

SMcG: You made an assumption on my last statement that I probably should have clarified more. I don't think it sucks being a little guy; I think it sucks having to perpetually deal of interminable assholes who beat what they consider a joke to f***ing death.

In my last job, I had a boss who managed to work something about large breasts into every freaking conversation I had with him; no matter how serious the topic, or who else was in on the conversation. I tell ya, it was like the guy had freakin' Turettes Syndrome. THAT was demeaning and rather depressing; but I couldn't let him see that that got to me. Hell, that's what he wanted.

I ended up finding ways to out-maneuver him to get the job done. I generally kept my mouth shut around him. I've found out that silence is a very powerful tool; it really freaks people out, intimidates the hell out of them for some reason.

I think this situation of mine is comparable to things you've alluded to here. All I'm saying is that if the goons see it gets to you, they get their rocks off. And that you can make your point with idiots like that in different ways.
posted by xena at 5:16 AM on May 2, 2002

Xena,

You make a lot of sense.

Thanks.
posted by Stumpy McGee at 7:14 AM on May 2, 2002

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Do short men get short-changed? April 30, 2002 5:21 AM Subscribe

Do short men get short-changed?
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