RT if you know why Sen. Harris gets interrupted.

June 15, 2017 7:51 AM

The Universal Phenomenon of Men Interrupting Women by Susan Chira in the New York Times.
posted by bile and syntax (71 comments total)

I am not criticizing or disagreeing with the article at all, but it's worth pointing out that (to my recollection) Senators Feinstein and Collins were not interrupted even though they were women and there may be an additional factor intersecting with the obvious and undeniable sexism.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:57 AM on June 15, 2017 [38 favorites]

I agree entirely. Women get interrupted, women of color get interrupted more. I'd also love to see a study on interruption that accounted for lesbian, bi, and trans women.
posted by bile and syntax at 8:05 AM on June 15, 2017 [9 favorites]

It doesn't have to be all women all the time everywhere in order for it to be the largest looming factor that ever loomed. Harris's age and lack of senatorial seniority also may be factors. And, you know, she's not white.
posted by rtha at 8:07 AM on June 15, 2017 [46 favorites]

Was really expecting the article to switch to a male author mid-sentence somewhere.
posted by timdiggerm at 8:09 AM on June 15, 2017 [20 favorites]

And, you know, she's not white.

that was what i was getting at
posted by entropicamericana at 8:11 AM on June 15, 2017 [11 favorites]

If Harris runs for president, she should definitely have a one-liner or a slogan about not being spoken over and not being silenced.

I frequently worry whether I personally am a bad interrupter, but I feel that, in work-related situations, I have to just push past that worry. If I let the other person speak, then there's a chance I'm never going to get that moment back, because I am by nature soft-spoken and polite, which to many spells "doormat."

If I feel disregarded in conversation, I am never quite sure if it is because of my gender or my ridiculous regional accent. Strangely, this softens the blow, and makes it easier to go about my day consumed with slightly less loathing than otherwise.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:13 AM on June 15, 2017 [5 favorites]

I saw this on Samantha Bee's program. She pointed out that Harris's questions were interrupted twice by McCain, once while she was talking to Coats and then with Sessions. She repeats the question they are not answering and in each instance McCain uses the same words to interject: 'Chairman, the witness should be allowed to answer the question'.

They weren't answering the question, which is why she was repeating it. Interesting how John remembers his script when the latina is talking. When it's his turn to ask the questions, well, we all saw what happened.

Samantha Bee rocks, the clip I mention is 4mins into the last episode, no link because copyright.
posted by adept256 at 8:15 AM on June 15, 2017 [7 favorites]

The "Harris is just uniquely badgering" people in the comments to that article clearly didn't watch the whole hearing and definitely didn't watch Senator Wyden (D-OR). Who was just as forceful and just as insistent. Sessions got very rattled by him. He did not get shut down by the damn peanut gallery.

I'm the only woman in my department and I have my own special serial interrupter. I just keep on talking because fuck that.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:16 AM on June 15, 2017 [62 favorites]

The "Harris is just uniquely badgering" people in the comments to that article clearly didn't watch the whole hearing and definitely didn't watch Senator Wyden (D-OR).

This this thisitty this. Wyden was all but jumping over the table at Sessions, and King would have been right behind him, but Harris got interrupted.

I want Aisha Tyler to teach Sen. Harris how to say "Nooooooope" like Lana Kane whenever she gets interrupted.
posted by Etrigan at 8:18 AM on June 15, 2017 [35 favorites]

My dad does this thing whenever he's interrupted, he says "maybe it sounded like I was done talking," and continues on. It's never commented on, aside from sometimes a little chuckle and apology from the interrupter.

I am a woman, I have tried it a few times. It goes as well as you'd imagine.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 8:20 AM on June 15, 2017 [140 favorites]

Watching what happened to Senator Harris this week made me deeply wish I was the Senator due to start my questioning right after hers. Nothing would have given me greater pleasure than to lean forward and say "I yield my time to the Senator from California."

Beyond that, I agree this is a huge problem; I work in a female dominated profession, and I have learned to pay real attention to keeping my mouth shut and listening.
posted by nubs at 8:28 AM on June 15, 2017 [8 favorites]

I frequently worry whether I personally am a bad interrupter, but I feel that, in work-related situations, I have to just push past that worry. If I let the other person speak, then there's a chance I'm never going to get that moment back, because I am by nature soft-spoken and polite, which to many spells "doormat."

Could not be more accurate. This is me. Also, the fact that I am the only person at my level without a Ph.D. or M.D. gets me very, very frequently steamrolled. I am terrified that I have become known as an interrupter, but then I remember that I'm never going to get heard if I don't freaking speak up.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:41 AM on June 15, 2017 [4 favorites]

The Universal Phenomenon of Men Interrupting Women by Susan-

YO IMA LET YOU FINISH BUT-
posted by happyroach at 8:42 AM on June 15, 2017 [10 favorites]

I'm not gonna lie, folks - a very large part of why I'm a one-woman small business after decades of working in totally-unrelated male-dominated trades is that I will never ever ever again be interrupted with "well, actually -" Well, actually, how about you can kiss my ass. I make 1/2 the money and it's worth every penny I don't make. And here's something else: I know for a fact I'm not alone.
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 8:49 AM on June 15, 2017 [56 favorites]

It's an empirically established fact that women get interrupted more than men.

Here is the full transcript of Sessions' testimony (by Politico).
posted by splitpeasoup at 8:58 AM on June 15, 2017

It's such a playground thing too. 'You're the puppet!' It's her turn to speak, STFU or no juicebox you 70yo infant. Grown ups don't behave like that in adult debates. You don't talk over people in a debate, you listen so when it's your turn you have all the information you need to reply to. And while I thought he looked like an idiot who's never been in a real debate, evidently some people saw this as a strong-man power-play putting the woman in her place. Again and again he did this.
posted by adept256 at 9:00 AM on June 15, 2017 [8 favorites]

dude even after transitioning and having a masculine voice and shit i still am getting talked over by menfolk at work. though now menfolk complain to me about women being too talky when women don't go along with being talked over, which makes it even more festive

despicable
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 9:01 AM on June 15, 2017 [19 favorites]

Obligatory running gag from The Fast Show.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:02 AM on June 15, 2017 [3 favorites]

Lowering the focus from lofty DC congressional hearings to my own modest life, I wonder if there's a differing set of conversational personalities. As far back as high school people told me I often don't finish sentences, but my response then was that I guessed I figured I'd be interrupted before then.

I suppose an alternative viewpoint is that I should think a bit more before I start speaking =/
posted by pwnguin at 9:13 AM on June 15, 2017 [1 favorite]

The "Harris is just uniquely badgering" people in the comments to that article clearly didn't watch the whole hearing and definitely didn't watch Senator Wyden (D-OR)...

This this thisitty this. Wyden was all but jumping over the table at Sessions, and King would have been right behind him, but Harris got interrupted.

As it happens, Senator Wyden (my senator, who rocks) completely agrees with you:

@RonWyden:
Again, @SenKamalaHarris was doing her job. She was interrupted for asking tough questions. I was not interrupted.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:16 AM on June 15, 2017 [64 favorites]

Heh, pwnguin. I generally speak in short, clipped sentences, I have learned to get my point across succinctly (great for my career as a tech writer), because I'm so used to my Jewish family interrupting me.

Then, I would go across the street and play with the working-class Catholic kids, and they would think I was rude since I interrupted all the time. Can't win.
posted by Melismata at 9:21 AM on June 15, 2017 [3 favorites]

It's an empirically established fact that women get interrupted more than men.

Did someone do a study on that? How does one establish that, anyway?
posted by thelonius at 9:26 AM on June 15, 2017

Feinstein will eat your face if you interrupt her and everyone knows it. That's why no one does. But if women don't go full dragon lady like her they do get interrupted, it's very annoying. It's wearying having to be mean all the time.
posted by fshgrl at 9:34 AM on June 15, 2017 [16 favorites]

> Did someone do a study on that? How does one establish that, anyway

The article links to Who Takes the Floor and Why: Gender, Power, and Volubility in Organizations by Victoria L. Brescoll, which has more links in the references..
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:34 AM on June 15, 2017 [20 favorites]

I am the world's worst at interrupting because my job means I have to explain things and if I didn't double down and ignore people talking over me I'd never finish a sentence.

I too fear this makes me less than popular but fuck it I'm here to do a job.
posted by winna at 9:42 AM on June 15, 2017 [11 favorites]

Obligatory running gag from The Fast Show.

Weirdly, this was a recurring joke on Wonderbug. Barry Buntrock would say, I have a plan, and then say, what we need are 30 elephants, a toaster, six sticks of dynamite, and a full moon.

Then Susan Talbot would say, or we could just knock at the door.

Barry would say, Oh, I know, we could just knock at the door.

Then C.C. McNamara would high five him on his great plan.

This show was from 1976. 41 years ago this behavior was well-enough understood to be a recurring joke in a Kroft show for children.
posted by maxsparber at 9:42 AM on June 15, 2017 [12 favorites]

Did someone do a study on that? How does one establish that, anyway?

I took my first Women's Studies class in 1976, and there were at least a dozen studies about this even then.
posted by Miss Cellania at 9:53 AM on June 15, 2017 [37 favorites]

> Did someone do a study on that? How does one establish that, anyway

Generally you look at recordings/transcriptions of people talking and code them up. Counting.

Here is one article, from 1975 (Zimmerman and West 1975).

Here is a recent article by Jacobi and Schweers (2017) in which they specifically look at Supreme Court transcriptions over time. Same thing.

In the forty years between? Same thing, over and over. This is very, very well documented in research.
posted by epanalepsis at 10:11 AM on June 15, 2017 [46 favorites]

I'm teaching my 9-year-old daughter to respond with "I'm going to finish what I was saying."
posted by MonkeyToes at 10:15 AM on June 15, 2017 [56 favorites]

Relevant post from The Root: Y’all Knew Kamala Harris Was Black, Right? Turns Out She’s Also Got an Extra-Special Super Power.
posted by apricot at 10:24 AM on June 15, 2017 [5 favorites]

I am a guy who interrupts men and women, and I am a dick in every case. I learned it in a big, loud Irish-Catholic family where we all just kept on talking as soon as the interrupter shut up.

Now that I moved in wider circles, I realize you simply can't do that. It's a hard habit to change, but I am slowly getting better; I do believe it's maybe the top thing I would have a genie zap away if I got three wishes like Aladdin.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:28 AM on June 15, 2017 [13 favorites]

MonkeyToes: I'm teaching my 9-year-old daughter to respond with "I'm going to finish what I was saying."

Ooooh, that's good! My littlest one is also nine and she has No Fear about talking down interruptions, but I will start teaching her that line, too. Thank you!
posted by wenestvedt at 10:30 AM on June 15, 2017 [7 favorites]

I wish Harris had said, "Senator McCain, Could you repeat that for us?" After he repeats it ask him again to repeat it. And again until he realizes he is being pwnd. Yes. He might eventually find some self satisfactory retort. But by then it will be too late. Afterwards people will think three times about interrupting her/you/whoever.

.
posted by notreally at 10:32 AM on June 15, 2017 [3 favorites]

Sometimes you just have to mansplain mansplaining to women.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:33 AM on June 15, 2017 [6 favorites]

I am a guy who interrupts men and women, and I am a dick in every case. I learned it in a big, loud Irish-Catholic family where we all just kept on talking as soon as the interrupter shut up.

You might try an experiment where you observe yourself and see if you interrupt women even more than you interrupt men. Most of us would instinctively say that we don't. I'm an interrupter myself and wouldn't assume that I interrupt women more than men -- especially since I am a woman.

But then I read this that says even women interrupt women more than they interrupt men.

And then I did a little experiment for a few days at work where I just kept track of what I said in meetings -- how often I was interrupting people, and whether they were men or women. And guess what? I do! I interrupt women more than I interrupt men. And I interrupt men a lot.
posted by mrmurbles at 10:47 AM on June 15, 2017 [46 favorites]

I'm one of three men at my school site, and my boss is female... plus, in our meetings we raise our hands if we want to say something, so there are pretty much no interruptions.

I assume that this at least starts with watching dad interrupt mom? Because although in the classroom the kids learn not to interrupt, I've absolutely seen my boys interrupt their moms, and I'd bet that both the boys and the girls interrupt mom more than they do dad. I'll have to do an informal study next year.

But at the same time almost all their teachers are female, and there's not a lot of interrupting going on there... but with little kids the teacher is still the ultimate authority, which isn't true in a work setting.

I can't tell you how often parents come to teachers and say that the only way they can get their kid to do anything is my mentioning their teacher's name...
posted by Huck500 at 11:05 AM on June 15, 2017 [1 favorite]

I have to admit, I try not to interrupt anyone, but, when I do, I am pretty equal opportunity about who I do it to. I know it is not an excuse, but I have issues with racing thoughts, and am pretty well convinced (with some empirical evidence) that if it doesn't see the light of day while it is fresh, my mind will just tool right on past and it ends up on the dustheap of mental history, lost and forgotten.
posted by Samizdata at 11:13 AM on June 15, 2017

I have issues with racing thoughts, and am pretty well convinced (with some empirical evidence) that if it doesn't see the light of day while it is fresh, my mind will just tool right on past and it ends up on the dustheap of mental history, lost and forgotten.

This is often the case with the women who are already speaking, get interrupted, and then are never given a chance to finish. There are a lot of half finished sentences from women in that same dustheap. (Also, when men interrupt me this way on a regular basis, I stop sharing my thoughts with them at all.)

The prioritizing of men's "urgent" thoughts that might otherwise be "lost" over those of women who are already speaking is sort of part and parcel of the whole thing. I don't think it is done maliciously, but the subtext of "men's thoughts need to be voiced ASAP, women can wait" is sort of hard to avoid when an entire culture participates in this sort of prioritization on a regular basis.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:31 AM on June 15, 2017 [74 favorites]

Oh shit I am equal opportunity interrupter - I always now apologize, and encourage the person I interrupted to finish their thought. It makes for easier conversation, but I want to be that version of me that doesn't interrupt at all.

This particular example upset me so much because it's clear this is a mechanism of oppressing the voice of a person of color.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 11:31 AM on June 15, 2017 [1 favorite]

This is where interrupters have to learn to take notes, so they can get back to a point they want to make, when they have the floor. People with ego problems, or memory problems, or both, are sparked by something the speaker says, and fearful of forgetting their epiphany, they interrupt. They are riding on the speaker's information, however. Then there is just garden variety hubris that is chapter and verse for organizations that have previously been shitshows for group dominance posturing and vocalizations. The advent of women into these spheres has drastically upped the game, for some folks, who previously depended on being the most abrasive, dogmatic, posturing, and upbraiding, for influential payers, whether these are constituents or corporations. This is all greased with the pretense of Congressional or corporate etiquette. The horrid box of tricks, the box they think inside of, the box they count on to decrease variables so no matter what level of intellect or talent they possess, they can count on this known terrain.

People with fluid intellect who don't even see the box are terribly threatening to the system of control and agreement that created it to contain and concentrate their perceived power. Everyone has to be playing the same game for it to work. The United States is lucky that some people jump right out of that box and create like crazy to compete in the world market, or serve the world. The arrival of this fluidity rather than rigidity has been hard on hard liners. They then abuse by interruption, and their system currently allows for it, because they are all treading water, together, not effectively.
posted by Oyéah at 11:33 AM on June 15, 2017 [6 favorites]

I mean, I love him, but this is a regular conversational experience with my dad:

ME: [describing topic that is hard for me to talk about, but he asked]so I've been trying—
DAD: [Interrupting] Oh, I talked to [unrelated person] today. [Unrelated person’s distant relative] is getting married.
ME: What? Okay?
DAD: I didn’t want to forget to tell you.
ME: I was talking. Also I barely know those people, and it has nothing to do with that we were talking about.
DAD: I know. But I didn’t want to forget.

Just thinking about how often this happens makes my chest hurt. I regularly do an internal calculation about whether or not I’m willing to risk it almost every time we have a conversation. It isn’t just the interruption that hurts— it is the realization that he isn’t really listening, just waiting for an opening, and then deciding to just start talking without one, about something unrelated to anything I’m saying.

Also, in a less bleak vein, I had a coworker teach me a great method for signaling “you just reminded me of something that I wanted to tell you but I don’t want to interrupt while you are talking and also I am interested in hearing what you are saying.” She would hold up one hand, as if she was pledging an oath, and she would use the index finger on the other hand to press in the center of her palm, while making a popping ‘p’ sound. It meant “I’m putting a pin in it”, aka, “I have a response on deck and performing this gesture makes me less likely to forget it.” When a social circle collectively agrees to the convention, it can be really useful to prevent interrupting, while also helping "If I don't say it now I will forget" people to have a mechanism for keeping hold of the sudden thought.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:48 AM on June 15, 2017 [21 favorites]

There are now twice as many women of color* currently serving in the U.S. Senate as there had been in the entire history of the U.S. Senate before this session.

Wikipedia tells me that there are currently 21 women senators, "an all-time high."

Obviously, I don't spend much of my time in institutions as prestigious as the U.S. Senate. But it still blows my damn mind the extent to which people like Sessions have been allowed to coast on the assumption that this demographic breakdown is the natural order of things. In a place like that, I do believe he was genuinely flabbergasted to find himself on the receiving end of questioning from someone like Kamala Harris. I say this not to excuse him but to condemn the conditions that allowed him to get by for so long without having to ever look a woman of color in the eye. REPRESENTATION MATTERS.

*four
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:58 AM on June 15, 2017 [26 favorites]

This is often the case with the women who are already speaking, get interrupted, and then are never given a chance to finish. There are a lot of half finished sentences from women in that same dustheap. (Also, when men interrupt me this way on a regular basis, I stop sharing my thoughts with them at all.)

The prioritizing of men's "urgent" thoughts that might otherwise be "lost" over those of women who are already speaking is sort of part and parcel of the whole thing. I don't think it is done maliciously, but the subtext of "men's thoughts need to be voiced ASAP, women can wait" is sort of hard to avoid when an entire culture participates in this sort of prioritization on a regular basis.

It is something I am working on being better about, regardless of the offended party.
posted by Samizdata at 11:59 AM on June 15, 2017

I interrupt people too, it's a bad habit. Both men and women. But I don't know why anyone would assume they interrupt men and women with the same frequency without some really solid empirical evidence for that, in light of all the evidence available showing that women are interrupted more often. I mean, of course it seems to me that I interrupt without regard to gender, if a quick mental overview of my social interactions showed otherwise, it would be easy and I would stop. But my perceptions of the frequency with which I engage in a particular conversational tactic are pretty much worthless, it's like asking if my eye lingers longer on the color orange or purple.
posted by skewed at 12:01 PM on June 15, 2017 [18 favorites]

I work with a woman at the moment who interrupts and talks over EVERYONE, almost to the point of being unable to work with her because she dominates every interaction. She also knows the least in the room. I have observed that phenomenon in both genders over 30 years of work.

I was guilty of it when I was more enthused about the whole idea of work. One of my first dev departments was made up of all men and one woman. They all sthu when she spoke cause she would crush you like a grape if you didn't. I did have to train the rest of them to let other people finish their thought. They were fqairly young.

Sen Harris was aiming for that effect. She didn't let him finish and was actively trying to rattle him (which I applaud as I lean left) . It's a tactic, but as the FPP states, one only men are allowed to get away with.

FWIW, I am a cis female loudmouth.
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 12:11 PM on June 15, 2017 [1 favorite]

Hey.

Everyone who has commented - or wants to comment - about how they're an "equal opportunity" interrupter, and are trying to be better about it?

I get that you want to acknowledge that constantly interrupting people is bad, and to make at least a verbal (well, written) commitment to try changing your behavior. The thing is, that's not what this post is about; this post is about sexism and the fact that women are interrupted more than men. What you're doing is actually pretty dismissive - let me explain why.

Hardly anyone will say, "yeah, I interrupt women more than men." And yet, the problem is real. We perceive inequality to be equality and equality to be dominance. Likewise, we are very bad at perceiving patterns in our own behavior that are contrary to what we believe about ourselves, e.g. that we're not sexist.

(I rewrote that paragraph to use "we" instead of "they," because of my instinct to do the same thing: To excuse myself from the problem by positioning it as something other people do.)

Your self-reports about your lack aren't reliable. Unless you have somehow accurately tallied the number of times you interrupt men versus women, you actually don't know. I want to believe I don't do this, but I don't have that kind of evidence about myself. Look at the comment by mrmurbles, who actually did count, and found their self-perception wasn't accurate.

It's a way to excuse yourself from engaging with the real problem in a meaningful way, while still getting to position yourself as virtuously concerned. If you're not sexist, then you don't need to focus specifically on how you behave when interacting with women, or to feel too guilty - but you do get to wear the mantle of doing personal work.

You're at least not doing the thing where you use your subjective perceptions to dismiss the problem entirely. But people's perception that they aren't part of the problem is part of the problem.

The prioritizing of men's "urgent" thoughts that might otherwise be "lost" over those of women who are already speaking is sort of part and parcel of the whole thing.

Yes, this. It's a classic excuse for interrupting that comes up again and again. My stepdad uses it against my mom.

It's also part of the larger stereotype that women are multi-taskers and men are single-taskers - the same stereotype used to explain why women are so good at handling family responsibilities and men are so shit at it. Men, and their one-track minds! So easily derailed! Here, it's being used to offload conversational work such as listening, waiting your turn, and even keeping track of of your own damn thoughts onto the woman.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:14 PM on June 15, 2017 [190 favorites]

Thank you, Kutsuwamushi.
posted by crush at 12:20 PM on June 15, 2017 [4 favorites]

Here, it's being used to offload conversational work such as listening, waiting your turn, and even keeping track of of your own damn thoughts onto the woman.

Boom.
posted by Emmy Rae at 1:33 PM on June 15, 2017 [16 favorites]

Also, sometimes in a fast-moving group discussion, what you'd like to say just never gets said. The subject changes, the meeting ends, whatever. I'm an extrovert and I talk too much and even I regularly have to let go the idea that everything I wanted to contribute to a particular conversation gets to be said.
posted by misskaz at 1:34 PM on June 15, 2017 [3 favorites]

Nah, I am at the stage of life as a woman/crone/thing that goes bump in the night that I no longer want equal- I wanna be AHEAD. So I will interrupt merrily as I see fit, and ignore men who don't make sense, and generally act like a mediocre white dude. But so.much.cuter.
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 1:49 PM on June 15, 2017 [11 favorites]

In male dominated spaces, the least competent (and in some cases, the most deceptive) people tend to be the most aggressive about trying to dominate women. So the less knowledgeable a person is, the more likely they are to assume women are even more ignorant than them and try to jockey for position above them. People who understand and are good at what they're doing are just about always better about paying attention to the task at hand and not getting distracted with interpersonal dramatics. Not perfect, of course, but much better.

There are very few excuses to interrupt someone in a work context especially. Unless you're providing brand new information that's necessary to the topic (e.g., someone is going on about a problem that's already been resolved or is working off significantly wrong information) or something really serious, it can wait. Write it down or something. A lot of times, they'll address what you were going to bring up, and by interrupting, you're just wasting everyone's time and getting off track. It's not just sexist. It's counterproductive.

But that's a big reason I try to avoid real time discussions as much as possible, except socially. Whenever possible, if I have something complicated or nuanced I need to discuss, I do it in email. People still effectively 'interrupt' me by asking questions I've already answered, by misreading or adding weird little flourishes of their own, but if I have a paper trail, I can just point them to where they went wrong. And when someone inevitably mischaracterizes something I said, I have what I actually said right there. That paper trail has saved my hide more than a couple of times, including once when someone intentionally tried to frame me.

I'm also pretty heartless about saying I told you so.
posted by ernielundquist at 1:56 PM on June 15, 2017 [9 favorites]

I give the intro tour to our office. Women, for the most part, will listen to what I say and respond at the end of a sentence to indicate that they understand. Men will interrupt me to try to finish my sentences, constantly, through the whole tour. We are talking men who just graduated from college and show up to their first job and somehow do not feel they ought to listen to the woman explaining to them where they can park without getting a boot on their car.
posted by Emmy Rae at 2:13 PM on June 15, 2017 [21 favorites]

I've been waiting a day for listen,lady 's comment.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 4:34 PM on June 15, 2017 [3 favorites]

Kutsuwamushi,
I've been lurking on this site for about 15 years (pretty much every day).
Your comment is my all time favorite. Thanks.
posted by wester at 5:07 PM on June 15, 2017 [5 favorites]

Interesting how John remembers his script when the latina is talking.

Senator Harris' mother, Dr. Shyamala Gopalan Harris (1938–2009) was a Tamil Indian woman from Chennai, India, and her Jamaican-American father, Donald Harris, was a professor of economics at Stanford University.

Kamal means lotus flower in Hindi.
posted by elsietheeel at 6:53 PM on June 15, 2017 [10 favorites]

But at the same time almost all their teachers are female

A full 20-some years ago, my thesis for my BA in education was on gender bias in the classroom. Even when the rule is "raise your hand to speak," when boys break the rule, they are less often reprimanded or corrected than when girls break the rule. Boys learn very early on that they will be less constrained than girls, and girls realize that they must play by the rules or be called out. Just because teachers are female does not mean they're trained in methods of recognizing and limiting gender bias and encouraging equity in the classroom. This takes particular focus and training - otherwise, the behavior tends to emerge. This is another thing that has been well known and demonstrated over time. At the time I was studying it, this was enough discussed in pop culture that Doonesbury did a series on it.

shitshows for group dominance posturing and vocalizations.

This is soooo right. We tend to make the mistake of assuming that everyone in a communication setting (like a meeting) shares the same goal: communicating about the content of the meeting. But we don't. Some people are more concerned with establishing dominance in what they perceive as the group hierarchy than with accomplishing outcomes or sharing information, and act accordingly.

I was thinking about this just last night. I attended a professional development after work for a few hours at another organization. The group was made up of about 15 people, about 12 women and 3 men (normal spread for our profession, which is female-dominated). All three men were independent contractors, which is somewhat interesting, whereas most of the women worked in institutions. We had a pretty unstructured discussion, and I started to notice something interesting about the pattern of "questions" and gender - women tended to be asking sincere questions that would help the presenters reveal or produce information or insight that wouldn't have come out otherwise. Meanwhile, the men, small sample that they were, almost exclusively made comments (not really "questions") that were evaluative ("I think you did a good job on XYZ") or self-referential/aggrandizing ("I did a similar project where we...."). It became very noticeable because there was no real answer possible to these so-called "questions" - they did not lead to deeper discussion, because they didn't open the door to that. The only logical response is sort of a nod and thank-you, since there was no true and sincere inquiry in the question at all. The speaker was just taking the opportunity to demonstrate what they felt was superior knowledge or the hierarchical position to evaluate others' work.

The advent of women into these spheres has drastically upped the game

This is what I walked away thinking last night: thank god women continue to make strides into all professions and increase representation. Because, for fuck's sake, we improve the work. We improve communication because we know how to talk and listen and, in general, to use our time productively (not that every woman's a perfect angel and free from ego needs - I know they are not). But still, given the choice to work on a team with women and a team without, I know the team with women will be smarter and more effective because there will be less of this hierarchical concern and ego-demonstration and sexism playing out, and the focus will more likely be on the work at hand. And that does improve things for everyone - especially if the women are outspoken - because some of these classic scenarios built on male power structures desperately needed to be disrupted, because they empowered the ignorant and worked on platforms of things like physical threat, status display, etc., and everything else that isn't the work at hand.
posted by Miko at 8:07 PM on June 15, 2017 [19 favorites]

...and, to state the obvious, those power structures quash and distort the efforts of productively-minded men almost as much as it does women. Patriarchy is pernicious.
posted by Miko at 8:14 PM on June 15, 2017 [3 favorites]

This seems as good a time or place as any: I was talking tonight to my 3.5 year old, and he interrupted me and then stopped himself, and said "Sorry Mommy, I interrupted you. What were you saying?"

So, senators and others of the male persuasion: if my 3.5 year old can police his own interrupting, you can too!
posted by emkelley at 9:02 PM on June 15, 2017 [13 favorites]

Upon further reflection, I rescind my "of the male persuasion" because we all do it and I'm sure I do it too.
posted by emkelley at 9:11 PM on June 15, 2017 [1 favorite]

It's an empirically established fact that women get interrupted more than men.

Did someone do a study on that? How does one establish that, anyway?
posted by thelonius at 9:26 AM on June 15

As it turns out, this question was answered in the FPP link itself. Good job illustrating the point.
posted by eviemath at 5:19 AM on June 16, 2017 [19 favorites]

I was brought up knowing that you never interrupt anyone. It's just good manners. The men who are chronic lady interrupters must have been raised in a sty. Or they need/crave the macho ego boost they get lording their male authority over women and other lesser males.
posted by james33 at 5:42 AM on June 16, 2017 [1 favorite]

The men who are chronic lady interrupters must have been raised in a sty.

I know that you say this with the best and kindest of intentions, but it is patently false. Men raised in the highest echelons of society are taught to behave this way, intentionally, throughout their lives. They are taught this when their speech is prioritized over that of their sisters, and their sisters' interests are treated as risible and not worth the time of a man or a boy's attention. They are taught this when they watch the news. They are taught this when they go to most spaces of religious worship. They are taught this when they go to school, and when they go to college, and when they get their first jobs. They are taught this when the majority of men in their lives make jokes about "how much women love to talk" despite the fact that emprirical research has shown that men do most talking in conversations with women. They are taught this when they watch hundreds of movies that don't pass the Bechdel test, movies where women do not exist as named characters, movies where women are hardly allowed to speak at all, and when they do, they only speak about men and for men and to be "taught" better knowledge by men.

This behavior is utterly normal in the majority of public and private spaces. The places where this is NOT normal are the outliers. In most places, women who object to being interrupted are the ones coded as "rude" and "ill-bred", not the men talking over and silencing them. Pretending that this behavior is ill-mannered or unusual is silly. A huge amount of cultural etiquette is dedicated to teaching men to speak over women and teaching women to get used to it. It is embedded in rape culture. It is embedded in the clothes we wear and the jobs we do. It is embedded in our childcare crisis. It is embedded in the current healthcare debacle. It is everywhere, and to most people it is "the natural order of things", and people who want to fight it are viewed as destabilizing influences.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:03 AM on June 16, 2017 [43 favorites]

The men who are chronic lady interrupters must have been raised in a sty.

This is another example of what I was responding to above: You're positioning yourself as outside of the problem. You're also diminishing the seriousness of the problem by making the cause out to be a small group of uncouth men, instead of pervasive.

If everyone who denied that they engaged in sexist behavior actually didn't engage in sexist behavior, the world would be a much less sexist place. Of course, some people are just liars - but others genuinely believe that they don't, because it conflicts with their self-image and their perceptions aren't reliable.

Now, maybe it's true that you, personally, are an exception and don't interrupt anyone. But being interrupted isn't the only problem that women face when trying to communicate. Another one is simply being heard at all - having our words paid attention to, and being engaged with seriously. Chronic interruption is just a part of a larger devaluation of women's words.

For example, some major themes of this thread so far: it's not just men who do this, the behavior is very common, and it is not accurate or helpful to comment about how you're not part of the problem. How does "the men who are chronic lady interrupters must have been raised in a sty" engage with this?
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:38 AM on June 16, 2017 [18 favorites]

"The men who are chronic lady interrupters must have been raised in a sty."

You're positioning yourself as outside of the problem

also, blaming women. Because who raises most little boys? why, their mothers.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:58 AM on June 16, 2017 [14 favorites]

I'm a 38 year old cis woman. I still raise my hand when I want to speak. Not all the way in the air, but if my arm is at my side, I'll lift from the elbow. I mostly do it when someone is dominating a conversation and no one else can get a word in. Generally, people find it quirky and disarming, choosing to see it as more passive than passive-aggressive, and I'll be "called on." It totally is passive-aggressive in intent, though, because I don't want to interrupt, but I still want to be heard.

I'm a 38 year old cis woman, and I've only recently learned how to flash a side eye when I get interrupted and keep talking anyway.
posted by Ruki at 4:55 PM on June 16, 2017 [2 favorites]

Somewhat off topic but one of my biggest pet peeves in higher education (both an MA and a law degree) is professors who let students interrupt each other and do not enforce some sort of speaking order in their classrooms. To let students control speaking order almost always guarantees that men will speak more often, and interrupt more often. If, however, the professor keeps a running list of upcoming speakers (based on a showing of hands), women speak much more frequently and are less likely to be interrupted!

I've sat fuming in many classes with my hand up ready to make a point while men speak over women or each other, never raising their hands, and move us so far from the point that I eventually give up. It's demoralizing, and it is bad teaching.
posted by hepta at 5:26 PM on June 16, 2017 [3 favorites]

Side-note: how the hell did the editor feel entitled to pick a headline that uses the word 'universal'? Was it a play on some reference I'm missing?

All of the examples cited in the article are from the US, as far as I can tell, with the partial exception of the Colorado-based firm with clients in London and Canada, and the clients if anything are used as an example of a counterforce -- although surely there is data, maybe even cited in the research the writer cites, showing the same thing happens in those places. The headline made it sound like there would also be examples in the article from Papua New Guinea, West Africa, Eastern Europe ... we didn't even make it to the rest of North America, FFS, or Spanish-language US examples. By the end it felt not just disappointing, but bizarre, like being trapped in some claustrophobic faux-universe.

None of which is the writer's fault. The topic was the US Senate, which is a reasonable justification for the limited scope. The article deserved a more accurate headline, grr argh.
posted by feral_goldfish at 8:55 PM on June 16, 2017

My own personal interpretation of the sty comment was not that chronic Interrupters have had an unusually poor upbringing, but that the all-too-frequent upbringing that encourages and rewards young males for adopting this habit is something that speaks poorly for our society by pointing out its resemblance to a sty in this regard. Not trying to speak for other folks, and if my interpretation is wrong so be it.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:44 PM on June 16, 2017

So in that same place where I taught male people to let the other person finish, I was surrounded by Phd's and other folk who had much more advanced degrees/experience than I did. So I figured this was an opportunity to learn how they communicated as I wanted to advance my career. I asked one of them about the issue- they told me that they are taught during grad school to talk over and louder when someone is questioning their premise.

I don't employ this tactic on a day to day to get ahead, cause who wants to be an asshole? Unless of course you are dealing with assholes, who sadly come in all genders and extractions.

So here is my question- is it better to teach our young women to act like young boys? Or to educate the young as a whole in being strategic in your communications? What would that result in?
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 10:16 PM on June 16, 2017

It is better to teach women to do this thing Janeane Garofalo did on Fox in the leadup to Iraq2. I'm a man and I wish I could go back in time and high-five her for for not giving an inch. Seriously, watch the whole thing, and please, for me, be Janeane. Interrupt back.

Take f**king turns, how hard is that?!?!
posted by saysthis at 1:19 AM on June 17, 2017 [1 favorite]

the behavior is very common, and it is not accurate or helpful to comment about how you're not part of the problem. How does "the men who are chronic lady interrupters must have been raised in a sty" engage with this?

Take it a step further. Rather than simply shaking one's head and saying "how poorly they were raised!," how about committing to notice, object, and return to the floor to an interrupted woman whenever you see it happening in real life? As you surely will, if you begin paying attention in group settings. Cluck-clucking off the problem as one of poor upbringing rather than a systemic social issue is not transformative, but being an active promoter of women's right to speak is.
posted by Miko at 7:15 AM on June 17, 2017 [6 favorites]