our system favors the films with truly abysmal critical receptions
June 19, 2017 8:15 PM   Subscribe

The 50 Best Good Bad Movies
Therefore, following these three rules is a solid, efficient way to determine whether a movie is Good Bad:
Enjoyment of the movie must be derived from its badness. Its badness needs to be the thing that creates a sense of bewildered enjoyment.
There must be a pervading sense that those who made the film thought what they were doing was great, or at least good. Good Bad Movies have minimal self-awareness. Here are two examples that may help explain this sentiment: (1) MacGruber is not a Good Bad Movie, it’s a tribute to Good Bad Movies, and (2) Fast Five is not a Good Bad Movie, it is a movie that intentionally wades into ridiculousness (and then manufactures a reaction similar to the one a Good Bad Movie elicits naturally).
The movie must have been something of a critical failure when it was released. Critics, god bless them, hold movies to a high standard as an art form and generally don’t reward a movie for being of low quality. In that way, they’re a helpful, as-objective-as-possible resource in determining which films are bad, and therefore eligible to be Good Bad.
posted by the man of twists and turns (264 comments total) 30 users marked this as a favorite
 
Idle Hands
Lionheart
Cellular
Dante's Peak
Obsessed
Stone Cold
The Wicker Man (2006)
Youngblood
Hercules (2014)
You Got Served
Battleship
Save The Last Dance
The Fast And The Furious: Tokyo Drift
Just One of the Guys
Bad Boys 2
Spice World
Battlefield Earth
Surviving the Game
Mission Impossible II
Nothing But Trouble
Demolition Man
The Chase
The Last Action Hero
The Happening
Gigli
Catwoman
Con Air
The Room
Troll 2
Road House
Fear
Mortal Kombat
Mighty Morphin Power Rangers: The Movie (1993)
Deep Blue Sea
Honey
xXx
No Holds Barred
Showgirl
She's All That
The Beach
Speed 2: Cruise Control
Over The Top
Final Destination
Anaconda
White Chicks
Batman & Robin
Masters of the Universe
Congo
Wild Wild West
Godzilla (1998)

posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:30 PM on June 19 [16 favorites]


What? No "Hudson Hawk"? That website is fired.
posted by analogue at 8:35 PM on June 19 [28 favorites]


Barely anything before 1990.
posted by wotsac at 8:36 PM on June 19 [14 favorites]


There is going to be some controversy here: some of these movies have no place on this list because they are legit good (Con Air), and some have no place on it because they are in no way an enjoyable watching experience - I'll watch any old shit with spaceships and lasers but Battlefield Earth is painful garbage.

(Also The Beach, while by no means my fave Doyle film, has a shockingly low RT score, and also does not belong on this list)
posted by Artw at 8:38 PM on June 19 [5 favorites]


Batman & Robin really works better if you just tell yourself that it was written for Adam West, and ignore the art direction and editing.

Also I don’t see The Human Tornado on this list, but then that movie walks a remarkably fine line between “bad on purpose” and “actually a bad movie”
posted by DoctorFedora at 8:43 PM on June 19 [3 favorites]


What? No "Hudson Hawk"?

Of course not, they're only talking about bad movies.
posted by ckape at 8:45 PM on June 19 [25 favorites]


No Food Fight?
posted by dilaudid at 8:49 PM on June 19 [2 favorites]


After weeding out the nominees that did not adhere to Rule No. 3 above — any film with over a 60 percent rating on Rotten Tomatoes was deemed ineligible
[...]
30. ‘Demolition Man’ (1993)
GBS: 206.6
RT: 64%


This list is rigged and I won't stand for it.
posted by ejs at 8:51 PM on June 19 [18 favorites]


I always feel like The Lost Skeleton of Cadavera needs to show up in these discussions of Good Bad movies, but it never does. Maybe because it doesn't pass the 'minimal self-awareness' standard, though you might only know that if you understood what you were getting into before watching it.

...And whaddabout Cemetery Man?

These posts should just acknowledge that the 50 listed whatevers are only a starting point for all the snubbed options and incredulous ridicule sure to follow.
posted by carsonb at 8:52 PM on June 19 [9 favorites]


This is treading on HDTGM territory without even a nod.
posted by tummy_rub at 8:57 PM on June 19 [8 favorites]


I'll watch any old shit with spaceships and lasers but Battlefield Earth is painful garbage.

I saw Battlefield Earth. In the theater, on opening weekend.

And I took a date.

NO REGRETS. I love that stupid, terrible shitpile of a movie, all the way down to the climax, which is mostly just people running slowly while someone just off-screen throws rocks at them. I'm pretty sure that there is not a single shot in that movie that lasts more than five seconds and has the camera frame parallel to the ground.
posted by phooky at 9:04 PM on June 19 [6 favorites]


Brain Dead, with Bill Pullman, Bill Paxton, Bud Cort, George Kennedy.

These posts should just acknowledge that the 50 listed whatevers are only a starting point for all the snubbed options and incredulous ridicule sure to follow.

True. There's simply too many to choose from.
posted by ashbury at 9:07 PM on June 19 [2 favorites]


My favorite good bad movie is Hell Comes To Frogtown with Rowdy Roddy Piper as the last fertile man on Earth and of course, lots and lots of frog people.
posted by hoodrich at 9:31 PM on June 19 [13 favorites]


My favorite good-bad movie: the Korean movie Dragon Wars.

My son and I really enjoyed watching this movie together because, by ourselves, we would not have caught half the ridiculousness. It is just so richly full of so much unintended nonsense that makes you constantly go "Did he really just say that?"

Just about every scene has a couple of lines like "Don't take the stairs! The building is about to collapse. Take the elevator!"

Yet, it was a big budget movie with half-way decent special effects.
posted by eye of newt at 9:40 PM on June 19 [5 favorites]


Barely anything before 1990.

Their age divisor probably should've used some sort of decay function. Logarithmic? Exponential? I'm too tired to figure it out right now, but surely one of those.
posted by clawsoon at 9:43 PM on June 19 [2 favorites]


Save The Last Dance

oh god this movie is over 15 years old and yet still I painfully CRINGED for Julia Stiles when I saw this title.
posted by lalex at 9:52 PM on June 19 [3 favorites]


I had a wonderful good bad movie experience over the weekend. I had heard that The Book of Henry was awful in a really special way, and Colin Trevorrow was giving a Q&A at my theater, so I went. Well Trevorrow wasn't there until the end so he wasn't really a factor, but it was immediately clear that a quarter of the audience was there to support the writer, as they cheered loudly when his name came up in the opening credits.

Now, this movie is TERRIBLE. It has a completely nonsensical omniscient narrator of a plot device. Its tonal shifts are almost offensively wild. The title character is both the dumbest person alive and the most outrageously smart child genius one could ever imagine. Real, horrible problems are solved by the power of Dance! One of its climactic moments is literally caused by a Rube Goldberg machine.

But, of course, all of these terrible things are incredibly hilarious, yet because of writer's friends and family, nobody else in the audience dared to laugh loudly or shout rudely at the screen. Instead, a little cluster of people around me had an attack of quiet teary hysterical full-body giggles for pretty much the entire movie. It was the best extended cringey shared experience I can ever recall having with a group of total strangers. Long live bad movies!!!
posted by acidic at 9:54 PM on June 19 [43 favorites]


This...this is actually a good list. There are like a dozen legit vomiting duds in there that are genuinely shitty films but I only think that because of their genre. Anything that starts with Idle Hands and ends with Godzilla is going to be a helluva journey!
posted by turbid dahlia at 10:06 PM on June 19 [1 favorite]


It's really personal, isn't it? I can't imagine sitting through most of these, and I can really enjoy a bad movie.

But every time Wicker Man comes up I think of Wicker Park, which was truly terrible and I only watched because I was staying at someone's house after it came out and it was literally the only DVD they had, and am really confused by the conversation.
posted by bongo_x at 10:12 PM on June 19 [1 favorite]


This is treading on HDTGM territory without even a nod.

HDTGM did not invent talking about bad movies, and is hardly the only bad movie podcast out there. Honestly this evokes The Flophouse more for me because they actually judge each movie they watch as a "Bad Bad Movie", "Good Bad Movie", or "Movie I actually sort of liked".
posted by kmz at 10:13 PM on June 19 [11 favorites]


...And whaddabout Cemetery Man?

Innagaddadavita! Someone other than me and my ex-wife (under duress) actually saw that?

NYAA!

(Actually, that is prolly a contributing factor to why she is an ex-wife...)
posted by Samizdata at 10:18 PM on June 19 [2 favorites]


This doesn't evoke The Flophouse for me because it's terrible and wrong, and the fine The Flophouse program is wonderful and right.

Seriously, the notion that Over The Top even belongs anywhere on a good bad movie list belies some strange attitudes. That this same list FAILS TO EVEN CONTAIN TANGO AND CASH reveals that it somehow was deflected off of reality by some severe interpretational phase transfer issues
posted by billjings at 10:37 PM on June 19 [3 favorites]


My husband legitimately enjoyed Catwoman (having never seen it though I had.) We agree it has a better plot than the Marvel movies.

Plus, Deep Blue Sea is actually one of my favorite "dumb" thriller movies. Actual action and tension. Great characters. Knows it's not totally serious. Fantastic.
posted by Crystalinne at 11:09 PM on June 19 [4 favorites]


My husband legitimately enjoyed Catwoman (having never seen it though I had.) We agree it has a better plot than the Marvel movies.

Only saw it after it came on Netflix. Must give it credit though. So many bad, wrong things with it, but, when it hits, it hits on ALL cylinders.
posted by Samizdata at 11:24 PM on June 19


Also, thanks to this thread, I need to watch Cemetary Man/Dellamore Dellamorte again. 😞

Hope you people are happy with yourselves.

😩
posted by Samizdata at 11:27 PM on June 19 [10 favorites]


Looks like they took the original top 3, hacked them out and stuck them in the middle to make it more contentious. The Room and Troll 2 are more or less the modern standard setters for good-bad, and Roadhouse seemed like the author's personal number one based on the intro.

Cause like, '98 Godzilla at number one? It was more forgettable than anything else.
posted by mannequito at 11:39 PM on June 19


Cause like, '98 Godzilla at number one? It was more forgettable than anything else.

Yeah, I'm having a hard time believing anyone watches that twice for fun.
posted by bongo_x at 11:48 PM on June 19 [3 favorites]


No Striptease? That movie is great.

Showgirls is the undisputed best/worst move of all time though.
posted by fshgrl at 11:49 PM on June 19 [4 favorites]


Yeah, I'm having a hard time believing anyone watches that twice for fun.

Childhood Nostalgia and Jean Reno have lead me to watch that movie at least 8 times.
posted by pan at 11:50 PM on June 19 [4 favorites]


Final Destination can't compare to Final Destination 5.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:52 PM on June 19 [2 favorites]


I wondered about how to generate a list like this programmatically (no nomination process like the article uses) and eventually came up with something not really the same but maybe still mildly interesting for how it did and didn't work.

First, I played around with RottenTomatoes, looking for ways to make it cough up films with substantial disparities in critic vs. user ratings, and honestly I couldn't make heads or tails of the outcome. Like, among the films RT lists as available for streaming on Netflix or Amazon Prime, here are some examples of movies with very disparate ratings: All Relative; Rainbow Brite and the Star Stealer; Sweet November; Sex, Death and Bowling; Alice; Mad Cowgirl; My Way; Bad Boys II; and Camp Rock. I have no idea how to evaluate that.

But it occurred to me that one way people enjoy bad films is by responding to the dialogue: MST3King it or exaggerating it or whatnot. So I took the ratings and quotes lists from IMDb, sorted films by their number of quotes divided by their rating, and selected the ones rated below a 6.0 by more than 2000 people. And that started to look a little more like the list in the article, though it's probably something more like "quotable unpopular films" than "good bad films." Anyway, here's the top 40:

31.52 The Twilight Saga: New Moon (2009)
27.32 Fifty Shades of Grey (2015)
26.49 Batman & Robin (1997)
25.44 Transformers: Age of Extinction (2014)
24.40 Garfield (2004)
21.50 Super Mario Bros. (1993)
21.39 The Room (2003)
20.73 Alexander (2004)
20.53 Street Fighter (1994)
20.38 Twilight (2008/I)
20.19 Casino Royale (1967)
20.17 Friday After Next (2002)
19.82 Fantastic Four (2005/I)
19.35 Showgirls (1995)
19.12 Spice World (1997)
18.07 America's Sweethearts (2001)
17.73 Son of the Mask (2005)
17.39 Epic Movie (2007)
17.25 The Three Stooges (2012)
17.04 Troll 2 (1990)
16.96 Unfriended (2014)
16.96 Howard the Duck (1986)
16.88 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III (1993)
16.12 The Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn - Part 1 (2011)
16.00 Postal (2007)
15.09 Daredevil (2003)
15.09 Scary Movie 3 (2003)
15.09 Good Burger (1997)
14.81 Dragonball Evolution (2009)
14.66 The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (2003)
14.63 Batman Forever (1995)
14.62 The Haunting of Molly Hartley (2008)
14.58 Gigli (2003)
14.58 Battlefield Earth (2000)
14.56 Not Another Teen Movie (2001)
14.41 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2014)
14.14 Mr. Deeds (2002)
13.92 Scary Movie 4 (2006)
13.92 Jennifer's Body (2009)
13.68 Son of the Pink Panther (1993)
posted by Wobbuffet at 12:00 AM on June 20 [72 favorites]


I'm still not sure exactly to put one of my personal favourites, Armageddon, which is economical, well crafted, well shot, well acted, but also cynical idiotic and manipulative garbage from start to finish. I still don't really know why I have a soft spot for it. Still, compared to modern Bay it's basically Citizen Kane.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 12:13 AM on June 20 [6 favorites]


With the acknowledgement that there are people out there who derive sexual pleasure from watching women in heels squashing frogs, I suppose I can understand somebody enjoying Nothing But Trouble.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:51 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Armageddon would make much more sense on the list than the modern day action classic Bad Boys 2.

This did make me want to see Surviving the Game, a film which I was previously unaware of but which sounds great.
posted by biffa at 12:53 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


But it occurred to me that one way people enjoy bad films is by responding to the dialogue: MST3King it or exaggerating it or whatnot. So I took the ratings and quotes lists from IMDb, sorted films by their number of quotes divided by their rating, and selected the ones rated below a 6.0 by more than 2000 people

While I personally find the good bad film concept seriously problematic on a number of fronts, which I won't burden the conversation with here, this is a really clever way to look at viewer engagement versus outside perception of merit and I heartily congratulate you for it.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:12 AM on June 20 [8 favorites]


It probably says something about me that I've only seen three of the movies on this list and I thought all three were bad and not worth watching.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 1:15 AM on June 20


This is one area where any complaints that the list is very US-centric would be completely off the mark, I think. However, I do wonder what lists from other countries would look like , as they'd contain the sorts of film that don't normally make it abroad (perhaps, because they traditionally dub everything, European good/bad movies meld together). I remember being taken to see a German movie (in Germany), where two incidental characters were nuns, who drove around in a sort of push-me-pull-you car made of the fronts of two 2CVs (I think). The two cars could detach from each other and become two cars, opening a number of questions regarding their vehicular choices. They were, as I recall, entirely incidental to the film, yet the only thing about it I remember. And there are Bud Spencer and Terence Hill movies, of course. My favourite movie that might drop into this category is the Czech film Tomorrow I'll Wake Up and Scald Myself with Tea.
posted by Grangousier at 1:51 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


This might not qualify for anyone else, but my personal favorite Good Bad Movie is Fair Game.
Fair Game is a 1995 American action film directed by Andrew Sipes. It stars Cindy Crawford as family law attorney Kate McQuean and William Baldwin as Max Kirkpatrick, a Florida police officer. Kirkpatrick ends up on the run to protect McQuean when she is targeted for murder by ex-members of the KGB with interests in a ship owned by a Cuban man who may lose it in a divorce case being pursued by McQuean.
What else do you need to know?

I dropped in to visit my cousin on a road trip once and we decided to catch a movie. Not knowing anything about it, we got tickets for Fair Game. We were the only two people in the theater, which was great because that freed us to mock it loudly and have possibly the best time I've ever had watching a movie. A+++++ would eviscerate again.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 1:58 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


I enjoyed Anaconda: Hunt for the Blood Orchid more than the original - it was a fun bad movie.
posted by smoke at 2:01 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


I appreciated this list. I was surprised how many of the movies on the list I'd seen, and embarrassed by how many of them I saw in the movie theater first run.

I don't pursue Good Bad movies enough to have any opinion about the ordering or anything, but I had fun reading it. Thanks for posting!

Also: Spice World is a fun movie.
posted by hippybear at 2:05 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


This list could just as easily be seen as a critique of the Rotten Tomatoes Fresh/Rotten 'algorithm'. A movie with all reviews slightly below average could be rated 0% Rotten, while a movie with all reviews just slightly above tolerable could be rated 100% Fresh. It appears to be a purposefully opaque system that tends to favor movies that appeal to the lowest common denominator.

If you can't depend on your own taste in movies, Metacritic provides a somewhat more fair aggregate movie review rating system.
posted by fairmettle at 2:08 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


This is a very lazy list. Most of the movies had a decent budget and just turned out bad. That does not make them good bad movies. It just makes them bad movies. There was nothing to enjoy with a lot of these, they just sucked.

The really good bad movies are generally lower budget. The criteria otherwise is the same - people thought they were truly making a good movie. So anything by Neil Breen counts, but something like Sharknado doesn't, because it was intentional. Most Asylum movies wouldn't qualify, although I would say some would.

The only one I agree with on the list is Troll 2. Which has to be seen to be believed. I'm on the fence about Congo, because there wasn't anything enjoyable about it. It just sucked.

Last Action Hero was a spoof of action movie tropes. It was not meant to be taken seriously in any way.

At least they didn't include Starship Troopers.

But, in the end, any list that includes Demolition Man as a bad movie should be disregarded.
posted by bh at 2:46 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Last Action Hero was a spoof of action movie tropes. It was not meant to be taken seriously in any way.

I'm going to disagree with you here. My memory of Last Action Hero (I haven't seen it in YEARS) is that its central message is that young boys should NOT be looking toward action heroes as actual heroes because of how rigged the movies are in their favor and how (not the gentle term) stupid action movies are in general. It's a movie that's actively trying to destroy its own genre.

I could be wrong about that memory, I'd have to watch the movie again, but that's what I remember the most about it from when I last saw it (which might have been opening weekend).
posted by hippybear at 2:59 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


I knew this list was going to be weird when the article opened with a Hercules reference, and it was not a reference to the 1983 version. Lou Ferrigno as Hercules threw a bear into space. I would have put that one on the list, because that movie is amazing. A lot of bad/good movies, you're only half-entertained, but not this one. You can tell that they really spent money on it. However, it was from back when special effects left a lot to viewers' imaginations. The evil monsters are all robots. And the costume design is halfway between Flash Gordon and She-Ra. Yet Lou is such an earnest actor, he is totally focused in every scene; what a swell guy. Here's the trailer.
posted by heatvision at 3:16 AM on June 20 [6 favorites]


My favorite thing about Armageddon is this bit of trivia:
Regarding the film's premise, Ben Affleck asked director Michael Bay, "Wouldn't it be easier for NASA to train astronauts how to drill rather than training drillers to be astronauts?" Bay told Affleck to shut up.
posted by dephlogisticated at 3:32 AM on June 20 [40 favorites]


I suspect that "Bay told X to shut up" is a very long list across his career.
posted by hippybear at 3:39 AM on June 20 [21 favorites]


No Food Fight?


Oh God no, if it were on this list someone might actually try to watch it. You know I have Feelings about Lists on the Internet (that frequently extend to offering to ugly fight people in the street because they are so absolutely wrong it is the only way) but I am sure the people making them mean no real harm.

Have you ever watched a man's soul die? I have. I HAVE. Approximately 20 minutes in to this movie, which he watched because of me. Because he didn't believe me, because I piqued his curiosity. Nothing in his eyes but the reflection of hideously rendered surface textures and a greasy dickweasel.
posted by louche mustachio at 3:41 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Your argument is compelling, and I seek to verify its claims. What sort of man should I invite to watch this movie with me?
posted by hippybear at 3:45 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Barely anything before 1990.

But it occurred to me that one way people enjoy bad films is by responding to the dialogue: MST3King it

Its valid to view the badness of post 1985 films as different from those from 1955-85 or so. The first Terminator might be the dividing line. Before, you have "traditional" camp and low-budget exploitation and drive-in theaters. Sex is edgy and "dirty", and violence is perpetrated by sub-Bogart strong silent types. After, it's different. The sexual revolution is a given, the protagonist spouts self-conscious catchphrases as is steroid-pumped. The movies have more money put towards them, probably from major studios, and get rediscovered on cable / VHS and their descendants.

Their methodology may not have been intentionally tailored to this shift, but it worked out that way.
posted by bendybendy at 4:05 AM on June 20 [5 favorites]


What about McBain (1991), Christopher Walken's finest/weirdest hour? Which is worth it for this scene alone.

Another good one is Deep Rising (1998), starring Treat Williams, Famke Janssen and Anthony Heald (aka the asshole psychiatrist in The Silence of the Lambs), which features a discussion of monster size relative to aquatic depth, ending: 'Those at 20,000 feet have been known to eat full grown sharks! At 30,000 or 40,000 feet... well, you do the math.'
posted by Mocata at 4:05 AM on June 20 [5 favorites]


Its valid to view the badness of post 1985 films as different from those from 1955-85 or so. The first Terminator might be the dividing line. Before, you have "traditional" camp and low-budget exploitation and drive-in theaters. Sex is edgy and "dirty", and violence is perpetrated by sub-Bogart strong silent types. After, it's different. The sexual revolution is a given, the protagonist spouts self-conscious catchphrases as is steroid-pumped. The movies have more money put towards them, probably from major studios, and get rediscovered on cable / VHS and their descendants.

You're being kind. Honestly, I'd say it's more laziness on the part on the list compiler than anything else. This entire list reeks of the lazier movie reviewing/vlogging that you can see on sites like Channel Awesome (which I love, but some reviewers are better than others), where there are some vloggers who can barely be bothered to remember anything that predates the 1980s, and even that's a stretch.

However, there are some reviewers like Brad Jones (i.e. Cinema Snob) who review tons of obscure films from the 1960s, '70s and '80s-- and not just exploitation movies, but obscure romantic dramas I'd never heard of (like 1984's The Windy City) and comedies like Zombies on Broadway from 1945. There are, in fact, bad and possibly enjoyable movies (of all types) made before you were born! Jones knows a ridiculous amount about movies, unlike this list compiler.

(For the record, one of my favorite good bad movies is Roman Scandals with Eddie Cantor from 1933, which is a bizarro mashup between The Wizard of Oz and Sign of the Cross. A drifter from the midwest goes back in time to ancient Rome to tangle with the corrupt emperor and help rescue a princess. There's singing and dancing, with songs by Warren and Dubin, (including Keep Young and Beautiful, which is featured in a huge number), and choreography by Busby Berkeley! Some of it's fun-- much of of it is cringe-inducing. But it's pre-Code silliness, and I love it.)

So yeah, this list? Not impressed.
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 4:42 AM on June 20 [4 favorites]


*clap*

I TRANSFERRED FROM LOS ANGELES
THIS LIST IS PROBLEMATIC
I DON'T SEE BRING IT ON
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:44 AM on June 20 [9 favorites]


Its valid to view the badness of post 1985 films as different from those from 1955-85 or so. [...] Before, you have "traditional" camp and low-budget exploitation and drive-in theaters. Sex is edgy and "dirty", and violence is perpetrated by sub-Bogart strong silent types. After, it's different.

Roger Corman caught this distinction nicely when he remarked that, early in his career, having a girl take her top off on screen created just as much impact as staging a full-on car crash. "And a girl taking her top off was obviously much cheaper," he said.
posted by Paul Slade at 4:56 AM on June 20 [5 favorites]


No Fitzcarraldo? If you think about it, what a ridiculous movie.
posted by thelonius at 4:57 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


The thing is they go through a lot of effort to come up with an actual formula to determine their "Good Bad score" and thus take their subjective opinion out of it... but their subjective opinion is actually all over this list, because it was what determined their choice of the 64 candidates to begin with.
posted by JHarris at 5:20 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


uh, no Femme Fatale? Or is that considered good because DePalma?
posted by aiglet at 5:22 AM on June 20


subjective opinion

How is that different from an "opinion"?
posted by thelonius at 5:31 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Femme Fatale has a good reputation in the alt-weekly school of cinephiles. I'm kind of lukewarm on it, but the opening sequence is amazing and I certainly woudn't consider it "bad" by any means.

Same with Cemetery Man. Well-directed, well-photographed, well-acted with striking, memorable imagery (and multiple appearances of a Grim Reaper literally borrowed from Terry Gilliam). There are compelling arguments against it, sure, but I only wish all bad movies were that imaginative.
posted by Mothlight at 5:35 AM on June 20


The best thing Victoria Jackson ever did on SNL was her "Weekend Update" guide to movie star ratings:
4 Stars: Pretty Good
3 Stars: The Best
2 Stars: The Worst
1 Star: Pretty Good
posted by Brachinus at 5:36 AM on June 20 [12 favorites]


Someday you will die, and it will probably happen in a boring way.

Not to me, Bubba. Not to me.
posted by Splunge at 5:43 AM on June 20


Metafilter: hideously rendered surface textures and a greasy dickweasel.
posted by Billiken at 5:48 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


I love the Final Destination movies. They are HILARIOUS!
posted by Billiken at 5:49 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


So The Room is my all-time favorite bad movie. You guys get it though, so I won't elaborate.

However, before the Room came along, my #1 bad movie went to Killjoy. Watched with my best friends when I was about 14. It really is just so so bad. Don't bother with the sequels though, the are just bad bad, not good bad.
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:51 AM on June 20


>subjective opinion
How is that different from an "opinion"?


You can use an descriptor on a word that's already implied by that word to provide emphasis. Nyaah!
posted by JHarris at 5:58 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


I DON'T SEE BRING IT ON

Bring it On had excellent reviews, IIRC, and 99% of the world loves it unironically. What would qualify it for this list?

The HDTGM episode for Catwoman is excellent, because they spend so much time breaking down the nonsensical "evil makeup empire" plot. June's dedication to taking terrible plot points seriously and attempting to chart the interior logic of movies that are actual garbage is one of my favorite things.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:12 AM on June 20 [7 favorites]


There are different... flavors of Good Bad Movie, and I think they often come into conflict when people talk about lists like this. Here are what I see as the predominant flavors:

1. The Spectacle - Big budget, big explosions, big acting, terrible writing. The Spectacle is Good because it is enjoyable to watch, like a fireworks display or a silly cartoon. It is Bad because it fails to make you connect with the characters or plot in any way, and often relies on terrible cliches, stereotypes, or handwaving nonsense to create any kind of story. Stuff like Transformers and superhero movies fall in this category, but also super broad comedies, like Ace Ventura or Something About Mary.

2. The Headscratcher - Often made by an amateur auteur (that's a good band name right there) with a shoestring budget. These movies barely understands the language of filmmaking, and are Bad because they are often incomprehsible, and technical failings like bad audio or distracting editing can actually make them hard to watch. They are Good because it is shockingly refreshing to see a movie that does not do basic things correctly, and because they are so outside of the mainstream, anything can happen at any moment. The Room and Manos: Hands of Fate are the classic examples of this flavor.

3. The Diamond in the Rough - A movie made by relatively inexperienced or untalented creators that, despite serious failings in some areas, somehow manages to engage the viewer on some level. Sometimes with unsung acting performances or imaginative plot, other times with perfect pacing or deeply satisfying storytelling. Movies with fascinating set pieces with little to no connective tissue can also fall into this category. I put Blair Witch Project, Clerks and Primer (don't @ me) in this category.

4. The Heartstrings - A movie that is flawed in many ways, but has such a great story and/or central character that you can't help rooting for them, falling in love with them, or otherwise getting emotionally wrapped up in them. It can be poorly acted and often has a illogical or blatantly unbelievable plot, but you just can't help yourself for liking it. A lot of sports movies land here. You Got Served and Drumline are my favorites in this category.

Some people think all four of these can be Good Bad movies, others think only one category is worthy of the title.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:38 AM on June 20 [7 favorites]



One of the advantages of a half century of movie-going is the ability to identify a movie I don't have to see without actually seeing it. In consequence, I have only seen two movies on this list. I would rate Last Action Hero as Good-Good and Wild Wild West as Bad-Bad.

Last Action Hero did everything it set out to do and was fun. If it offended action movie fans, that's a win too. It was a one-stop self-contained TV-Tropes, from before the WWW was a thing. My only real criticism is that it ran too long. And being from Cincinnati, I am one of the few who got why "Arnold Braunschweiger" was a good line. Makes a nice double feature with Buckaroo Bonzai if you have time for it.

Wild Wild West was a waste which like everyone else I saw because of the cast, and was almost certainly the last remake / decades-old-tv -> movie adaptation I ever saw or am likely to see, great cast or no.

Roger Ebert said it best:
Wild Wild West' is a comedy dead zone. . . . The movie is all concept and no content; the elaborate special effects are like watching money burn on the screen. . . . Smith and Kline have so little chemistry, they seem to be acting in front of rear-projections of each other. . . . you realize you are regarding desperate actors, trapped on the screen, fully aware they've been left hanging out to dry.
[. . .]
Wild Wild West is so bad, it violates not one but two rules from Ebert's Bigger Little Movie Glossary:
  • By casting M. Emmet Walsh as the train engineer, it invalidates the Stanton-Walsh Rule, which states that no movie with Harry Dean Stanton or M. Emmet Walsh can be altogether bad.
  • By featuring Kevin Kline without facial hair, it violates the Kevin Kline Mustache Principle, which observes that Kline wears a mustache in comedies but is cleanshaven in serious roles.
. . . perhaps he could use the defense that Wild Wild West is not a comedy.
posted by Herodios at 6:46 AM on June 20 [9 favorites]


Cemetery Man. Well-directed, well-photographed, well-acted with striking, memorable imagery (and multiple appearances of a Grim Reaper literally borrowed from Terry Gilliam).

You mean he offed people with salmon mousse?
 
posted by Herodios at 6:49 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


I've seen two of these: MI2 and Last Action Hero. MI2 is genuinely terrible but Last Action Hero is a fun parody of 80s action movies, not sure what it's doing on this list.
posted by octothorpe at 6:51 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


> Battlefield Earth is painful garbage.

It's true that my sides ached from having laughed so much. Seriously, I saw BE with a large group of friends on opening night in a gigantic but mostly empty theatre (half a block away from Toronto's main Scientology centre at the time) and it will always be a very fond memory; it's easily one of the most fun nights I've ever had at the movies. We had to go across the street to a pub afterward to process what had just happened to us. Travolta's performance is up there with Jack Palance in Tango and Cash (check my profile pic) in the Hammy Villain Hall Of Fame, and I do so love me a hammy villain.

My top five list in no particular order is probably:

Battlefield Earth
Tango and Cash
Showgirls*
Road House
Either Zardoz (I saw it back in the mid-'90s before it was A Thing and we had NO IDEA what we were in for) or The Room

* a bit of a special case because nobody seems quite sure whether it was bad on purpose and therefore good, bad on purpose but bad in ways it wasn't trying to be, or just so bad it's good

Of the other movies on this list, I love Stone Cold, Troll 2, Congo (I got the full Comic Book Store Guy treatment when I rented this at Queen Video in Toronto back in the day), Anaconda ("They got snakes out here this BEEEEG???"), The Happening and Con Air. Obsessed is also great, particularly this scene.

Yes, I have watched a lot of good/bad movies.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:53 AM on June 20 [3 favorites]


I'm fond of Showgirls because it has basically the same plot as the Star Wars trilogy.
posted by Artw at 7:00 AM on June 20 [8 favorites]


I'm fond of Showgirls because Jessie Spano gives Agent Cooper a lap dance in it.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 7:03 AM on June 20 [5 favorites]


Okay, there are some bad movies on here that I truly love in all their badness. Last Action Hero, xXx, Deep Blue Sea. Road House, obviously. There are also a lot of bad movies that I love in all their badness that were overlooked, like Cradle 2 the Grave and Streets of Fire.

But then there's Wild Wild West.

No. I'm sorry, but no. That movie is not "so bad it's good." That movie is just bad. And I'm not talking about bad as in poorly made or short-changing the audience on the couple hours of entertainment they were promised. Lots of movies fail that. And I have some practical knowledge of just how hard it is to make a really good movie, how many things all have to fall in place just right, so I'm really forgiving of movies that don't work.

No, Wild Wild West, is bad as in evil. It's not just technically bad; it's morally bad. There's nothing fun about it. It's a human tragedy of racial slurs and jokes about the disabled. If the movie had been more competently made, that would have actually made it worse. Our world, and the legacy we leave our children, are slightly diminished by the film's very existence.

So fuck that movie and everyone associated with it. Fuck Will Smith and Kevin Kline and Kenneth Branagh. Fuck Barry Sonnenfeld. Fuck the whole baseball team's worth of writers who worked on the script. Fuck Scott Hislop, who had an uncredited bit part as Guest at Masquerade Ball. Fuck Shane Buckallew for making molds for this movie. Fuck carpenter Marc Fambro, and fuck supervising foley editor Benjamin Cheah. Fuck all the production accountants and the publicity department. Fuck the craft service people who blithely fed these monsters while they labored late into the night to make this steaming mound of hopelessness. Fuck all those unsung digital compositors and rigging foremen. Fuck the kid taking tickets at the Meridian Theater. And fuck me for actually paying money to support this monstrosity.

Christ, this movie. What a vile, nasty, misanthropic stew of banal malevolence. The angels weep.
posted by Naberius at 7:05 AM on June 20 [20 favorites]


[1st thing, does CRTL-F for "Gymkata"]
posted by JanetLand at 7:14 AM on June 20 [12 favorites]


Hard to remember that Sonnenfeld started out with the Coen Bros given his career trajectory since the first Men in Black.
posted by octothorpe at 7:15 AM on June 20


You're being kind. Honestly, I'd say it's more laziness on the part on the list compiler than anything else.

I am being ridiculously kind, but I have philosophy degree from NYU. That said, the list has made me realize I don't really enjoy the more modern Roadhouse style of shitty action movie that makes up most of the entries- I much prefer the old school forms closer to MST3K picks. Back before we had prestige pulp films. But I do like shitty comedy! Like White Girls. And I find pre-1990 shitty comedy unbearable.
posted by bendybendy at 7:17 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Catwoman deserves to be much higher given that it probably has about 40 cuts per minute and features some of the worst internet searching in a movie ever made. It's like a fever dream.
posted by Ferreous at 7:18 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Zardoz (I saw it back in the mid-'90s before it was A Thing and we had NO IDEA what we were in for)

I saw it in the cinny when it first came out (1975?).

Before SF movies went mainstream, we went to see any SF film. Even Illustrated Man.
 
posted by Herodios at 7:22 AM on June 20 [4 favorites]


I can tell it's written by people younger and me because their HBO memories don't include endless viewings of Krull and Legend. And while Krull might not be interesting enough for this list, Legend certainly is. Tim Curry as the (kind of) actual Devil. Very Young Tom Cruise. "Unicorns" with visibly wobbly horns. Mia Sara dancing around in a magically evil dress.
posted by emjaybee at 7:26 AM on June 20 [8 favorites]


Just wanted to pop in here to say my wife and I are among the dozen or so folks to have seen "I Woke Up Early the Day I Died" in the theater. Made in the '90s from a rediscovered Ed Wood script, it was a great cast, no dialogue and is about as high on the WTF meter as any film I've seen over the past two decades.
posted by AJaffe at 7:38 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


With the exception of a few minutes of Spice World (I was over at my brother's house and my nieces were watching it), I haven't seen a single one of these movies.

One movie that I thought might be on the list is Drag Me to Hell. I was casting around for something to watch one night several years ago, saw it on some list, and checked its Rotten Tomatoes rating to determine if it was worth watching. The critical rating was 92% and the audience rating was 62%. It's unusual for the two ratings to be so far apart, but I decided to take the critics' word for it and watched the movie. It... wasn't good, but I'd describe it as enjoyably bad. It was ludicrously over the top and I laughed all the way through it. Then I went back to Rotten Tomatoes and actually read some of the reviews, and found that the reviewers had all made fun of it, but in a good-humoured way that suggested that they'd enjoyed it the way I had.
posted by orange swan at 7:50 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


No Hot Stuff, featuring Dom DeLuise, Jerry Reed and Ossie Davis?
posted by jonmc at 7:53 AM on June 20


I've seen two of these: MI2 and Last Action Hero. MI2 is genuinely terrible but Last Action Hero is a fun parody of 80s action movies, not sure what it's doing on this list.

If anything, it was a movie a bit ahead of its time. Hot Shots 2 was released the same year, and it's a straight parody of action movies, while LAH is what we'd call now a "Genre Deconstruction". I guess it was a decade or so ahead of the curve for the critics and audiences, but I don't think the writers and director were completely sure what they were doing, either.
posted by lmfsilva at 7:55 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


I only watched 10 minutes of Wild Wild West, and I completely agree with naberius' comment. Last Action Hero doesn't belong on that list, that's a good good movie. For Showgirls I got the comic store guy (in this case gal) treatment when I had to buy an US-import because the German release was heavily censored, but she gave me that for renting To Die For too, because Nicole Kidman was horrible and bound to be forgotten in no time, and that worked out a bit differently, though.

As for what such a list would look for European films, that's somewhat pointless because it would be all of Jess Franco's work for the first 150 or 160 spots (I kid you not). If you're truly interested in good bad movies, check him out, you're in for a ride.

Dellamorte Dellamore couldn't qualifiy for this list, because it was obviously supposed to be bad on purpose but failed at that, and turned out pretty good.

For German cinema, basically everything made in the 1950's and three quarters of the 60's was bad, so any enjoyable movie you'd find there is thus good bad (there might be a handful outliers, but not many).

Fitzcarraldo is a good film, though very long and extremely weird, and Kinski had gone completely, utterly mad at the time (which was a good casting decision). Alas, as it turned out he had raped his daughter (Pola, not Nastasja) for years, I find it hard to enjoy his antics nowadays.
posted by ojemine at 7:56 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Judge Dredd.

As it turns out, not good as a date movie, either. Do not ask.
posted by datawrangler at 7:58 AM on June 20 [3 favorites]


Weirdly the actually good Stallone movie of Judge Dredd is on this list.
posted by Artw at 8:06 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


ctrl-f Jupiter Ascending

0 results


DISAGREE
posted by nonasuch at 8:06 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


I only watched because I was staying at someone's house after it came out and it was literally the only DVD they had

That's how I ended up seeing The Forgotten, which was a bad film, and not a good bad film.
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 8:10 AM on June 20


Regarding the film's premise, Ben Affleck asked director Michael Bay, "Wouldn't it be easier for NASA to train astronauts how to drill rather than training drillers to be astronauts?" Bay told Affleck to shut up.

You can hear Affleck recount the conversation as he makes fun of the movie on the commentary.

Also, as with all lists that use RT/ MetaCritic scores as some part of their metric (not to mention the age of the staff), these skew wayyy too recent.
posted by Think_Long at 8:11 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


I think I get way more enjoyment from never having seen a Transformers movie than I ever could from watching one.

Everyone's whipping boy from the Fast and Furious movie franchise I can thoroughly recommend as a lot of fun though. Does it hold up the "bad" part of the equation though? Hmm. It undoubtedly is amiable nonsense that barely pretends to make sense in parts, but the "good" movies of the franchise are all that too.

The best thing about TD is the gymnastics they have to pull with the FF timeline afterwards and the "kid" showing up later still playing a teenager despite the actor having aged fifteen years.
posted by Artw at 8:18 AM on June 20


There is a very good '90s comic, "Hitman" where the titular character's best friend and sidekick, Natt The Hat, declares he loves Anaconda (#7 on the list), because "It's watching Ice Cube trying not to swear for an hour and a half!"
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:19 AM on June 20 [4 favorites]


Missing "Midnight Madness" with the late great Stephen Furst. Thinking about making GAME MASTER and GAME CONTROL shirts for this year's Halloween costume.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:29 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


The Core does not appear on this list, which completely invalidates everything else about it.

(Aside from that glaring and unforgivable omission, I actually agree with a lot of these.)
posted by tobascodagama at 8:30 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Also, didn't we have a thread a while back on Reign of Fire? That's a perfect candidate for this list as well.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:32 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


I'm on the fence about The Day After Tomorrow maybe being too knowing about how gloriously ridiculous it is.
posted by Artw at 8:36 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]



Another SF movie we watched in those days was called Doomsday Machine, aka Doomsday+7, Dead Men in Space, Armageddon 75, Escape from Planet Earth, Lefty, Kid Curry, Boss Moss . . .

It probably deserves its own FPP, but here it is anyway now, amongst -- friends(?)

Production began in 1966, two years before 2001: A Space Odyssey came out, shelved, then completed in 1972 four years after 2001 -- with a completely different crew and cast.

It involves a spaceship crew supposedly intended to visit Venus. I'm not giving away anything important by telling you that the Earth is destroyed as soon as they leave orbit.

Wikipedia adequately covers the plot and production. IMDB has full details, of course.

Now in the public domain, apparently, you can see it in full on Youtube at your leisure.

Even if a single aspect of the production had been non-terrible, the movie's ideas, style, characterizations, everything was way out of date even when they started in '66. Finishing up after 2001, it's like finding a 1950s cold war paranoia / sex farce made ten to twenty years too late. The actors, too, were about as far out of date. Bobby Van, the male lead (?) was forty years old when the scenes he's actually in were filmed, looking like an aging pre-Beatles teen idol.

MST3k never ran it -- probably because it is too dull and incomprehensible to enjoy even to mock. Nevertheless, it was apparently screened by Cinematic Titanic. Wikipedia states that Frank Conniff remarked that it was "like watching someone else watching Manos: The Hands of Fate".

Stars
  • Bobby Van
    • " . . .will always be remembered as the ecstatic young fellow who made like a human pogo stick during an expansive production number in Small Town Girl (1953)." -- Hal Erickson
    • Apparently appeared in one episode of Battlestar Galactica (1978)
  • Ruta Lee
    • (not Rula Lenska)
  • Mala Powers

. . . and Casey Kasem has a cameo as CapCom. And is then killed along with everyone else on Earth.

I usually get irritated when people criticize the special effects in old SF movies (or offer them as a reason to see contemporary ones) but the destruction of Earth by the titular doomsday machine sequence is particularly ludicrous -- also dull and incomprehensible.

The best I can say is that if you're a continuity hound like me, you'll dig a rich vein here. They can't decide on hairstyles, accents, spaceship designs, or much of anything from one scene to the next.

Share and enjoy.
posted by Herodios at 8:42 AM on June 20 [5 favorites]


I can't believe that everyone has left out the best/worst thing about Con Air: Nicolas Cage's ridiculous hairpiece. Steve Buscemi as a serial killer and John Malkovich as the bad guy just add icing to the cake that is that hair.

I agree that Last Action Hero is a legit good movie. It has its flaws, but beyond heart, it actually tells the story it wants to and mocks the 80s action movies perfectly.
posted by Hactar at 8:43 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


I'm gonna say your algorithm is broken if Highlander II: The Quickening doesn't even crack the top 50.
posted by mubba at 8:47 AM on June 20 [6 favorites]


Weirdly the actually good Stallone movie of Judge Dredd is on this list.

Every once in a while, I get to thinking that MeFites have pretty good taste on the whole, then somebody comes along and says something like this.

I didn't notice The Room on this list earlier, and if I hadn't already decided that the absence of The Core invalidates it, then the inclusion of that piece of shit certainly would. There's no redeeming value in The Room whatsoever, not even as "outsider art" or whatever stupid-ass justification people use for it.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:48 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Three shells 4EVAH!
posted by Artw at 8:54 AM on June 20 [3 favorites]


Film versions of Judge Dredd, in Best to worst order:

Dredd
Robocop
Hardware
Demolition Man
.
.
.
Judge Dredd
posted by Artw at 8:56 AM on June 20 [5 favorites]


I'm still struggling to parse your previous comment though Artw.
posted by biffa at 8:58 AM on June 20


Demolition Man is on the list, it is the version of Judge Dredd with Stallone in it that is actually good.

TBH if you seperate out being Judge Dredd from the Stallone Movie of that name it's probably not bad, just a pretty average SF romp.
posted by Artw at 9:06 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Roger Corman caught this distinction nicely when he remarked that, early in his career, having a girl take her top off on screen created just as much impact as staging a full-on car crash. "And a girl taking her top off was obviously much cheaper," he said.

IIRC, Joe Bob Briggs's drive-in movie reviews used to include a naked breast as well as explosion count.
posted by praemunire at 9:14 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Shakedown, with Sam Elliott and Peter Weller should be on this list, too.
posted by jonmc at 9:21 AM on June 20


Best Good Bad Movie?

Ishtar.
posted by Kabanos at 9:26 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


The How Did This Get Made podcast has done so many of these. Well worth checking out.
posted by Fizz at 9:28 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Re: The Last Action Hero being amazing.

Y'all need to drop everything and watch this Movies with Mikey about it if you still don't believe how awesome it is.
posted by Carillon at 9:33 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


I'll probably get hate mail in my MeFi Mail but for me, Dirty Dancing belongs on this list.

ConAir moved into an almost transcendent so bad it's good place when Nick Cage demanded "Put...the bunny...back...in the box."
posted by Ber at 9:34 AM on June 20 [5 favorites]


So part of their formula is "Cultural Relevance ... determined by multiplying a movie’s number of Google News hits in the last year (with 1 point being awarded per 100 hits) by the number of years it’s been since that movie’s release."

But they don't clarify how they control for movies with common titles which may be used in other contexts, if they did at all. Or did they just do a simple Google search on the movie title with absolutely no attempt to eliminate usage of those words in contexts other than the movies?

Somehow I doubt that Congo has that much cultural relevance, but the number of Google hits may be overwhelmed by the fact that "Congo" is also part of the name of two entire countries not to mention a river. I could make similar points about nearly half of the movies on this list, but Congo seems the most egregiously inflated on that basis.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:35 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


I'll take Batman and Robin over any of the grim, humorless and tedious Christopher Nolan Batman wankeries.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 9:37 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Demolition Man is on the list, it is the version of Judge Dredd with Stallone in it that is actually good.

Oh, I get it now.

In that case, yeah, I agree.

Anyway, it's clear to me now that this list isn't nearly controversial enough. What we really need is a list of Bad Good Movies. You know, movies like Life is Beautiful and The Help that are technically competent and well-reviewed but are actually pure garbage when you get down to it.

(As for Last Action Hero, ultimately I think it failed at what it was trying to do -- provide an enjoyable action romp while deconstructing enjoyable action romps -- but is still an interesting failure. Which definitely earns it a spot on the Good Bad Movie list, in my mind.)
posted by tobascodagama at 9:37 AM on June 20 [3 favorites]


Artw: Ah, I see.

It is the disappointment that is the killer with Judge Dredd, expectations were too high as I'm sure they were for all 2000AD fans at the time. They did throw some interesting stuff into it and some good fan service ideas but Rob Schneider is like a turd moustache, its not adding anything to any face.
posted by biffa at 9:37 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


I am guessing virtually all of the authors were born during the 1980s. That particular generation being one of the last to grow up in an era in which movie rewatches largely happened through basic cable. As such, many folks in that range seem to attach a great deal of significance to the attachment they got from the sheer mechanical repetition seeing things over and over.

I get that you saw Masters of the Universe fifteen times on TBS and that you have fond memories, but that doesn't make it a cult classic or anything, just garbage to which you've grown weirdly attached through happenstance.

It's still fun as a starting point for discussion, but I feel like I learned more about the demographics of their writing staff than about films.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:38 AM on June 20 [6 favorites]


One movie that I thought might be on the list is Drag Me to Hell.

The reason why the critics liked is is that it's a Sam Raimi film. This is the director who gave us the brilliantly unhinged Evil Dead 2 and it's sequel Armies of Darkness, the first Spiderman movie, and the Legendary Adevntures of Hercules TV show (and its spin-off, Xena Warrior Princess).

He's not just over-the-top, the top was way back there someplace and now the sky is the ground. At his best, he's an overcaffinated mad genius with no sense of restraint and relentless imagination cackling non-stop. Of course the movie was bad! Of course the movie was so much fun!
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:50 AM on June 20 [4 favorites]


Thank you Wobbuffet! Your list and algorithm are great, like sidebar-great, both because the formula works well and because it yields IMDB pages where one can go and spend lots of time reading wonderful-terrible dialogue from movies one may never take the time to watch:

Bella Swan: I'm coming with you!
Edward Cullen: Bella, I don't want you to come with me.
Bella Swan: You... You don't want me?
Edward Cullen: No.
Bella Swan: Well, that changes things. A lot.
...
Jacob Black: Bella, you're crossing a line.
Bella Swan: Then don't draw one.
posted by TreeRooster at 10:02 AM on June 20 [3 favorites]


No "Stayin' Alive?" No "Grease 2"?
LIST IS INVALID
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 10:08 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


3. The Diamond in the Rough - A movie made by relatively inexperienced or untalented creators that, despite serious failings in some areas, somehow manages to engage the viewer on some level. Sometimes with unsung acting performances or imaginative plot, other times with perfect pacing or deeply satisfying storytelling. Movies with fascinating set pieces with little to no connective tissue can also fall into this category. I put Blair Witch Project, Clerks and Primer (don't @ me) in this category.

YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME. --> @@@@@@@

Those aren't bad movies, they're just low budget and non-standard. As far as 'connective tissue,' some guy once told me that Jim Jarmusch was incompetent or something because one of his movies didn't conform to some standard narrative device. As though Jarmusch was trying to make Hollywood style movies and just didn't know how. (Stranger Than Paradise especially would probably fit into this category, and it's just plain not a bad movie in any way).

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with Hollywood style movies, but I get tired of watching the danged hero's journey and seeing the same tropes over and over, so I usually prefer movies that aren't tied up in a neat little narrative.

There are different kinds of movies that are so bad they're good, but for me the two main categories are:

1. Action-packed clusterfucks that are not boring.

Dwain Esper's Maniac is a really good example, and pretty much everything Doris Wishman ever did (including telling Roger Ebert what's what). Lots of exploitation films and other B movies fall into this category.

My pet favorite is a Mexican vampire movie called The Blood of Nostradamus, which was cobbled together from a much longer serial, so it's chock full of unexplained characters and plot elements and stuff, so there's always something happening, but you don't always know what or why. I haven't seen it in many, many years, so I could be embellishing it in my head, but I remember a scene where some villager in the mob, inexplicably led by a woman in a full showgirl getup, yells "There are vampires! Running loose in the streets!" superimposed over stock footage of a buffalo stampede. If that's not actually in the movie, I'm going to have to make the movie I remember, because it was fantastic.

2. Completely tone deaf, absurd vanity projects.

The most obvious ones are movies like The Room and Fateful Findings, because they're such bald, narcissistic fantasies on the part of the directors that it's like a case study in whatever that psychology is. But I'd put movies like Birdemic in there, too, as there's still that fundamental arrogance, where the director obviously doesn't know anything about filmmaking and isn't going to bother to learn, but still thinks he* should make a movie.

These are also compelling in that they end up as unintentional parodies of whatever genre they're aiming for, simply because the tropes are executed so hamhandedly.

* Yes, always.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:24 AM on June 20 [8 favorites]


He really does throw a bear into space. How have I never heard of this movie?
posted by tomcooke at 10:30 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


is that considered good because DePalma?

Jesus, I hope not. Nothing should be considered good because DePalma, Hitchcock's idiot understudy.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:42 AM on June 20 [4 favorites]


The absolute no-question worst commercially-released movie I've ever seen is The Search for the Beast. It's not good-bad though, so I wouldn't put it on this list. People use the word "unwatchable" pretty flippantly sometimes...But this thing is 100% worthless (even if they made it that way on purpose or if the distributors somehow messed it up, as the "people just don't get it!" Wikipedia description claims).
posted by doctornecessiter at 10:51 AM on June 20


Cemetery Man doesn't belong on any Bad Movie list at all, ever, because it is a life-changing masterpiece.
posted by Cranialtorque at 10:53 AM on June 20 [4 favorites]


The list really did skew toward newer movies, and I get why ("Cultural relevance" is a reasonable metric, I guess). But but but how can it not make room for Olivia Newton John as the Greek Muse of roller disco in Xanadu ?!
posted by Mchelly at 10:53 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


I also question Demolition Man's inclusion on this list. It is weird, really weird. But it's genuinely funny, and entertaining as hell. Far more so than the average Hollywood sci-fi action flick.
posted by Cranialtorque at 10:58 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


The list really did skew toward newer movies, and I get why ("Cultural relevance" is a reasonable metric, I guess). But but but how can it not make room for Olivia Newton John as the Greek Muse of roller disco in Xanadu ?!

Screw you, buddy. I went out of my way to see that first run in the theatres in my youth. A family member has NEVER let me forget that.

People make mistakes! Honest mistakes that never killed anybody!

JUST LET US FORGET THEM ALREADY!
posted by Samizdata at 10:59 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Fitzcarraldo is a good film, though very long and extremely weird, and Kinski had gone completely, utterly mad at the time

Read Kinski Uncut; I think it's safe to see he went utterly mad long before he appeared in Fitzcarraldo.
posted by e1c at 11:03 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Any list like this that doesn't have Blind Fury at the top is useless.

For anyone who hasn't encountered the majesty that is Blind Fury:
*stars Rutger Hauer
*as a Vietnam Vet called Nick
*who was blinded in combat by a mortar attack
*after which the local villagers nurse him back to health while giving him total sword skills
*so when he goes back home and befriends Billy, the son of an old friend
*he can help said son find his father, who's been kidnapped by the mob
As per the wikipedia synopsis of the ending (and how can this not bring you to tears):
A tearful Billy goes after Nick shouting that he needs him. Saddened by him leaving Billy throws his dinosaur off the Bridge where Nick catches it. Realizing Nick is under the Bridge and is not going with them Billy calls him Uncle Nick one last time and tells him that he's gonna miss him. Nick then smiles as Frank catches up to Billy where they embrace each other. The film ends with Nick shedding a tear and smiling as he put on his sunglasses, with Billy's dinosaur in his sling walking down a road leaving Reno to travel on his own.
This is the trailer

Also, the taglines are "He's lucky he can't see what he's up against." and "He may be blind. But he don't need no dog."
posted by Len at 11:12 AM on June 20 [4 favorites]


I think anyone who has a bad memory of Xanadu should watch it again with fresh eyes.
You have to let a little bit of 80's movie illogic go to enjoy it, but if you do it's a fun fun fun movie.
posted by Cranialtorque at 11:16 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Con Air is not a 'good bad movie', it's a work of sublime genius and I won't hear a word against it.

"Define irony. Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash."
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 11:19 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Read Kinski Uncut; I think it's safe to see he went utterly mad long before he appeared in Fitzcarraldo.

I'll take your word for it. It was the first time that several members of the crew offered Herzog to murder him, though...
posted by ojemine at 11:36 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Screw you, buddy. I went out of my way to see that first run in the theatres in my youth. A family member has NEVER let me forget that.

People make mistakes! Honest mistakes that never killed anybody!


Xanadu is glorious and wonderful and deserves a place on any list of Good Bad movies.

ELO! Gene Kelly in tight pants! Ribbon barrettes! And an animation sequence for no reason at all!
posted by Mchelly at 11:37 AM on June 20 [3 favorites]


But but but how can it not make room for Olivia Newton John as the Greek Muse of roller disco in Xanadu ?!

YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTH.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:37 AM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Blind Fury absolutely succeeds in its own terms as the American version of Zatoichi it wants to be and is therefore ineligible.
posted by Artw at 11:38 AM on June 20 [4 favorites]


I think anyone who has a bad memory of Xanadu should watch it again with fresh eyes.
You have to let a little bit of 80's movie illogic go to enjoy it, but if you do it's a fun fun fun movie.


I love Xanadu but it is a terrible movie. The male lead (formerly of The Warriors, which seems like it should be on this list!) does not act so much as run through a limited repertoire of facial expressions. Poor Gene Kelly is game because he's a pro, but there's nothing much for him to work with. The plot is a Möbius strip of confusing nonsense.

I do love it because Olivia Newton-John is luminous, I'm a sucker for the music/clothes/sets, and the Bluth animated sequence is charming. But "good" is not ever going to be the right word to use.
posted by emjaybee at 11:40 AM on June 20 [4 favorites]


It's still fun as a starting point for discussion, but I feel like I learned more about the demographics of their writing staff than about films.

I'm surprised to see there was an actual formula, because it really reads as "here's some movies I saw on cable and liked as a kid that I later realized weren't very good" more than anything.

It's been a few years since I read it, but I remember this being pretty good;
Showgirls, Teen Wolves, and Astro Zombies: A Film Critic's Year-Long Quest to Find the Worst Movie Ever Made
posted by bongo_x at 11:58 AM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Zero mentions of The Apple so far

Man everyone involved in this exercise sure likes failure
posted by Sauce Trough at 12:09 PM on June 20 [4 favorites]


In addition to the above mentioned issues with their cultural relevance metric, Rotten Tomatoes scores are mostly based on reviews published after Rotten Tomatoes started, and the good-bad movies in question are generally the sort which would get better reviews decades after release than they did originally.
posted by ckape at 12:13 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


The Warriors, which seems like it should be on this list!

YES! Why is it not on the list??
posted by cooker girl at 12:29 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


I take issue with the inclusion of Demolition Man. It is not "good-bad." It's just good. Woefully misunderstood for some bizarre reason that completely eludes me, but good. It's not, as this article states, "a preposterous Sylvester Stallone action vehicle," but rather a satirical postmodern sci-fi action-comedy. It knows that, and completely succeeds at it. It is exactly what it wanted to be. Far too many people I respect seem fundamentally unable to even comprehend what it is, like they were expecting Stallone's answer to Total Recall or something. I haven't tried yelling BUT YOU LIKE FUTURAMA! IT'S THE SAME THING! at them, but I've come awfully close. It's like they're hating on Beetlejuice or Addams Family Values because they're not scary enough. I can't even.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:30 PM on June 20 [5 favorites]


A lot of people think The Warriors is a good movie, which I don't believe it is, despite it being directed by Walter Hill, who did direct a lot of good movies.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:31 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


The Warriors, which seems like it should be on this list!

YES! Why is it not on the list??


Because it's 89% Fresh on Rotten Tomatoes.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:32 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


The Warriors, which seems like it should be on this list!

YES! Why is it not on the list??


Because it is not Bad.
posted by Artw at 12:33 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Because it's 89% Fresh on Rotten Tomatoes.

Because it is not Bad.

LALALALALALA I CANNOT HEAR YOU OVER THE HORRIBLENESS THAT IS THE WARRIORS
posted by cooker girl at 12:37 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


The Warriors, which seems like it should be on this list!

YES! Why is it not on the list??


Because this is not the "Greatest Weird Movies Ever" list.
posted by bongo_x at 12:41 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


all this time i've spent on metafilter...i thought i found my people...and then this...
posted by cooker girl at 12:42 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


LALALALALALA I CANNOT HEAR YOU OVER THE HORRIBLENESS THAT IS THE WARRIORS

Wait, why do you have The Warriors on if you hate it so much? Oh, right, because it's the best and you know it.

My personal go-to movies in this genre are the two I watched with friends as a home movie double feature many years ago: Beowulf (starring Christopher Lambert) and Vampires: Los Muertos (starring Jon Bon Jovi and Eddie from Family Matters). They are outstanding.
posted by Errant at 12:42 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Some bugger is going to say Repo Man next and it's going to kick off.
posted by Artw at 12:43 PM on June 20 [6 favorites]


The Warriors is one of the greatest midnight movies of the era. Sure, it's no achievement in cinematic arts or anything, but what it sets out to do, it nails almost everything.
posted by lmfsilva at 12:45 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


I like how the article completely describes the rubric it uses for determining its list and then people are arguing for movies that don't fit the rubric.
posted by hippybear at 12:47 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


people are arguing

Hi, welcome to the Internet. Let me show you around!

also, i grokked the rubric and i know the warriors doesn't fit but for the love of god we have to have some standards people
posted by cooker girl at 12:50 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Ehhh... pretty sure they method they describe is bollocks.
posted by Artw at 12:52 PM on June 20 [3 favorites]


I like how the article completely describes the rubric it uses for determining its list and then people are arguing for movies that don't fit the rubric.

Well, yes, but for the love of God, did you read what they describe as "the process"?

"And then I read all the titles to my pet turtle and noted any movement of her head"
posted by bongo_x at 12:54 PM on June 20 [3 favorites]


Metafilter, I served with bad movies. I knew bad movies. Bad movies are a friend of mine. Metafilter, The Warriors are no bad movie.
posted by Tevin at 1:00 PM on June 20 [3 favorites]


[1st thing, does CRTL-F for "Gymkata"]

It's not on there, but the the Vin Diesel cover version is.

They are basically the same movie: Guy who does non-mainstream sport enjoying its brief moment of fame in the popular imagination is recruited by shadowy government agency to go to a made-up Eastern European / Central Asian country in order to Do The Thing That Will Defeat The Bad Dude. While there, guy conveniently uses his sports-fu to defeat and / or evade Bad Dude's henchmen (Gymkata 1, Gymkata 2, xXx 1 & 2).
posted by dersins at 1:06 PM on June 20 [4 favorites]


I can't even with you people and The Warriors.
posted by cooker girl at 1:09 PM on June 20


Well, can you dig it?
posted by Artw at 1:11 PM on June 20 [6 favorites]


OK, let's get down to it Boppers.
posted by bongo_x at 1:14 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]



(Also The Beach, while by no means my fave Doyle film, has a shockingly low RT score, and also does not belong on this list)


is it possible that everyone who saw the movie had read the book? Because the book is so very much better than the movie, and no, Leonardo C is not the problem. What's curious is that Doyle and Alex Garland (who wrote the book) went on to do some pretty solid work together. So maybe there's some asshole in a suit that needs to be hunted down and exposed ...

Otherwise, given the other titles I have seen from that list, and extrapolating accordingly, I'm compelled to go all contrary and suggest, yeah, most (if not all) of those movies have received abysmal critical response because they f***ing deserve it.

All hail critics! (the ones I agree with anyway)
posted by philip-random at 1:18 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


The Warriors backs up my point about Rotten Tomatoes scores for older movies. The contemporary reviews were mild to negative but Rotten Tomatoes has it at 89%.
posted by ckape at 1:19 PM on June 20 [3 favorites]


Garland's The Tesseract may actually be worse. Still, onwards and upwards!
posted by Artw at 1:19 PM on June 20


cooker girl, is it possible you watched the "Ultimate Director's" cut of the Warriors? By all reports is does injustice to the original.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 1:20 PM on June 20


I have absolutely no idea but if there is a cut that exists that completely removes The Baseball Furies and the Hi-Hats, I'll watch it. Maybe.

Actually, no. I still wouldn't.

Might as well have had a gang of freaking MIMES. The Invisible Boxes.

I mean, really. The Hi-Hats? WTF were they supposed to BE, anyway?

i actually didn't realize i had this much of a hate-on for this movie...
posted by cooker girl at 1:27 PM on June 20 [3 favorites]


BRB, fighting Baseball Furies.
posted by Artw at 1:28 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


cooker girl, is it possible you watched the "Ultimate Director's" cut of the Warriors? By all reports is does injustice to the original.

I saw the original way back when. Found it very disappointing because the concept was appealing, but the story itself left me cold. That said, I keep waiting for someone to re-imagine it as a musical that takes the various relevant genres and sub-genres of 1979 and assigns a different one to each gang. And so on.

Unfortunately, doesn't look that will be happening any time soon.
posted by philip-random at 1:28 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Dammit this comment is a honeypot run by an all girl gang and I lost like half my crew.
posted by Artw at 1:29 PM on June 20 [7 favorites]


That said, I keep waiting for someone to re-imagine it as a musical that takes the various relevant genres and sub-genres of 1979 and assigns a different one to each gang. And so on.

OH MY GOD YES I WOULD WATCH THIS AND LOVE IT
posted by cooker girl at 1:32 PM on June 20


Could you have actually been playing a video game? That might explain it.
posted by Naberius at 1:32 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Nearly reached the end of the thread but the leader of The Orphans was driving around in a car, taunting us.

A car! Can you imagine it? That's just cheating.
posted by Artw at 1:36 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


A customer review of The Warriors from Amazon starts;

This film has accrued much hype and a large following, but in my honest view it's just a celebration of debauchery with a soft surrealism.

Yes, I like it too!

That said, I keep waiting for someone to re-imagine it as a musical that takes the various relevant genres and sub-genres of 1979 and assigns a different one to each gang. And so on.

OH MY GOD YES I WOULD WATCH THIS AND LOVE IT


No. You are a bad person. Both of you.

I keep waiting for someone to re-imagine it as a musical


This is not something that ever makes sense, under any circumstances, or is the thought of someone who likes good things or wants to make the world a better place.
posted by bongo_x at 1:39 PM on June 20


It's vanishingly close to that anyway.
posted by Artw at 1:41 PM on June 20


I saw Spice World four or five times when it came to my local second run dollar theater. It's Bad! But It's Great! So yes, it's Good Bad! But:

Good Bad Movies have minimal self-awareness.

I think it fails to meet the criteria here. I mean, maybe the titular stars of the film thought they were making something good, but it's pretty clear that everyone else involved in this movie knew exactly what they had.

Also, this movie needs more Corey Feldman and/or Haim. Pick one: Dream a Little Dream. Prayer of the Rollerboys. Blown Away (the one with Nicole Eggert, not the one with Jeff Bridges. But also, the one with Jeff Bridges.)

Also also, Solarbabies.
posted by Roommate at 1:41 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


I mean, The Warriors is basically just The Odyssey, only with more vests, right? What's not to love?
posted by dersins at 1:41 PM on June 20 [4 favorites]


The Director's Cut is horrible. It introduces totally unnecessary transitions and, in the process, completely destroys the flow of the movie. Fortunately, the regular version is still available to stream in lots of places.
posted by Errant at 1:41 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Spice World is an amazing and hilarious movie. And it doesn't qualify, because it seems to be perfectly self-aware and meta about what it's doing and the ways it's going sideways. Everyone involved just didn't give a shit about making the movie audiences expected to see.
posted by naju at 1:41 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


(Agh, jinx Roommate)
posted by naju at 1:42 PM on June 20


I mean, The Warriors is basically just The Odyssey, only with more vests, right? What's not to love?

Close, but it's not the Odyssey, it's the Anabasis.
posted by Errant at 1:43 PM on June 20 [5 favorites]


Unfortunate Gary Glitter cameo kind of ruins it.
posted by Artw at 1:43 PM on June 20


I've seen two films on this list, and only because we won tickets to major-release
sneak previews during spring-summer 2004. Cellular wasn't that bad, just another
two-star film. Catwoman really was awful. I hadn't seen many bad films, and really
didn't appreciate how bad it was until the unaware friend I dragged to it explained after.
And why isn't Garfield on this list? My 6-year-old enjoyed it. That must count for something.

I'd say Heaven's Gate is a textbook example of this kind of film. I've seen it twice,
and the poor sound quality makes it painful to sit through, but there's something appealing
about it.

Too bad about the ageist bias. Any attempt like this that doesn't include
Attack of the Killer Tomatoes isn't going to rate any better than a so-bad-it's-good list.
posted by morspin at 1:45 PM on June 20


Oh, my nomination: Empire Records. (Rating: 23%! Audience score: 84%)
posted by naju at 1:46 PM on June 20 [7 favorites]


That said, I keep waiting for someone to re-imagine it as a musical that takes the various relevant genres and sub-genres of 1979 and assigns a different one to each gang. And so on.

This is almost The Get Down, the recently cancelled Netflix series by Baz Luhrmann.
posted by lmfsilva at 1:55 PM on June 20 [3 favorites]


Double Team, in which Jean Claude Van Damme (playing an escapee from an elite think-tank,) Dennis Rodman (playing an arms dealer), and an infant are saved by a Coca Cola machine during an explosion of the Roman Coliseum, a roided-out Mickey Roarke, and a tiger, should be on this list. Or the algorithm means nothing.
posted by Cookiebastard at 2:04 PM on June 20 [4 favorites]


Oh, my nomination: Empire Records.

I don't feel I need to explain my art to you, Warren.
posted by Slap*Happy at 2:04 PM on June 20 [5 favorites]


there's still that fundamental arrogance, where the director obviously doesn't know anything about filmmaking and isn't going to bother to learn, but still thinks he* should make a movie

Yes! Yes. Absolutely. This is exactly what I tried and failed to say when I dumped on The Room.

True outsider artists lack what "insiders" would consider chops mainly because they lacked access to the "inside". Lack of tools, lack of exposure to opportunities for formal training, etc.

Dudes like Wiseau and the Birdemic guy lack chops because they don't feel that they need to possess tools or formal training. And the hipster fucks who turned their shitty vanity projects into cult hits have more or less validated that feeling, so thanks for that, assholes.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:21 PM on June 20


Birdemic was not worth it, even for lulz.
posted by Artw at 2:25 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


The Director's Cut is horrible. It introduces totally unnecessary transitions and, in the process, completely destroys the flow of the movie.

The weird thing is the original was a surreal comic book movie, but for now they felt like they had to put actual comic book bits in there to spell it out.
posted by bongo_x at 2:31 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Deep Blue Sea turns killer sharks into an inadvertent punch line.

It is absolutely not inadvertent! This movie is intentionally ridiculous and should not be on this list according to the criteria.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:32 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]




I cannot recommend The Room enough, it's a miracle. Looking forward to The Disaster Artist.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:36 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Deep Blue Sea may not have set out to be the new Jaws, but it was definitely aiming for horror-action territory with a mere side dose of comic relief. It definitely did not reach that territory.

But I think that somebody realised in editing that they weren't hitting their original mark and decided to more or less jettison the attempts at serious horror in exchange for more scenes with LL Cool J. That person absolutely made the right call.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:41 PM on June 20 [5 favorites]


Double Team

You forgot the part where it is full of basketball gags even though there is absolutely no in-movie connection to basketball.
posted by ckape at 2:41 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


I always feel like The Lost Skeleton of Cadavera needs to show up in these discussions of Good Bad movies, but it never does. Maybe because it doesn't pass the 'minimal self-awareness' standard, though you might only know that if you understood what you were getting into before watching it.

It's 100% spoof/homage and not particularly subtle about it. If you stumbled into a black-and-white Ed Wood style b-movie made in 2001 and thought you were seeing something untainted by artifice, I'd wonder about you...

Showgirls is the undisputed best/worst move of all time though.

People still think this movie is genuine schlock? Huh...
posted by naju at 2:44 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


I'd say Heaven's Gate is a textbook example of this kind of film. I've seen it twice,
and the poor sound quality makes it painful to sit through, but there's something appealing
about it.


Heaven's Gate is really more of a much-maligned masterpiece (or, if you prefer, an interesting case study re: auteur-studio-critic relations) than remotely so-bad-it's-good. It's not just a good film; it's good film, and nowadays critics seem to recognize it as such. To be fair, by all accounts it certainly wasn't when it first came out, having been rushed through post-production to make the studio's deadline (which might explain the mumbly dialogue; they probably expected to loop a lot of it), and as a result of that it was completely cut to ribbons, first in the editing suite, then in the press. The positive reassessments are based on the subsequent Director's Cut(s).

At the very least, Heaven's Gate has ever so slightly less rollerskating than the same year's Xanadu, so it's got that going for it.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:46 PM on June 20 [3 favorites]


Showgirls is the undisputed best/worst move of all time though.

People still think this movie is genuine schlock? Huh...


I don't understand the Verhoeven apologist movement. He made bad movies, one after another, and people keep trying to look for secret keys, that he's encrypted good movies in there if you know the code.

1990 Total Recall
1992 Basic Instinct
1995 Showgirls
1997 Starship Troopers
2000 Hollow Man

That is a 10 year run of some of the worst movies I've ever seen. (Oops, I didn't see Basic Instinct)
posted by bongo_x at 3:08 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


If Total Recall is one of the worst movies you've ever seen, you are truly blessed...
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:19 PM on June 20 [10 favorites]


Seriously. I never thought there could be someone who didn't enjoy Total Recall on SOME level.

Verhoeven is perfectly capable of making genuinely good-on-the-surface stuff when he feels like it. Have you seen Elle? It's in my running for most interesting and surprising film of last year. The guy is masterful at cinematic tricks and pushing buttons.
posted by naju at 3:25 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Yeah, Black Book was the same.

I love Showgirls because only Kyle MacLauchlan and Gina Gershon are in on the joke.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:38 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


If it's not Rutger Hauer stuffing a dead baby into a barrel you're not talking about Verhoeven being schlocky properly.

Also all of his films are very engaging and rocket along at a cracking pace, avoiding the greatest sin of all: Being boring.

Also Starship Troopers is A) Great and B) Pisses off the stuffier Heinlein fans, what's not to like?
posted by Artw at 3:50 PM on June 20 [3 favorites]


I'M FROM BUENOS AIRES AND I SAY STARSHIP TROOPERS IS TOO GOOD TO BE ON THIS LIST!

AND ALSO KILL 'EM ALL!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:14 PM on June 20 [8 favorites]


I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE
posted by Carillon at 4:24 PM on June 20 [10 favorites]


But what if it was a bunch of fascist wank in power armor? Wouldn't that be better?
posted by Artw at 4:33 PM on June 20 [3 favorites]


Yes? Of course power armor would make everything better.
posted by Carillon at 4:34 PM on June 20


Sys Rq: "I take issue with the inclusion of Demolition Man. It is not "good-bad." It's just good. Woefully misunderstood for some bizarre reason that completely eludes me, but good. It's not, as this article states, "a preposterous Sylvester Stallone action vehicle," but rather a satirical postmodern sci-fi action-comedy. It knows that, and completely succeeds at it. "

This. Demolition Man is a brilliant movie.

Artw: "Also Starship Troopers is A) Great and B) Pisses off the stuffier Heinlein fans, what's not to like?"

There is a great movie in the book, or better a 3/4 part miniseries, that will probably never see the light of day because of the existing movie that really doesn't have anything to do with the book. I mean for $deity sakes how the hell do you make a Starship Troopers movie without orbital injection power armour?!? Verhoeven's Starship Troopers was like making a Dukes of Hazard movie but swapping out the The General for a New Beetle convertible. A Starship Troopers movie could be a massive action movie hit with philosophical undercurrent ala The Matrix but Verhoeven just completely dropped the ball). Or you could leave out all the political stuff and still have an excellent action movie.
posted by Mitheral at 4:48 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Also all of his films are very engaging and rocket along at a cracking pace, avoiding the greatest sin of all: Being boring.

There's where we disagree. They were boring. That was their main sin.
But that's something about me. When the the cars are flipping around and exploding I often find myself looking at the ceiling tiles and wondering why they chose those particular ones.

I saw Total Recall, Showgirls, and Starship Troopers in the theater when they came out. I think that's a big part of it. Just like a great movie is better in the theater, a bad one is not so forgivable there. The main thing I remember about those movies is how long I spent thinking "is this almost over?"

I can also count the number of movies I quit watching before they were over on one hand, because I often change my mind by the end. Hollow Man was one that my wife and I looked at each other said "are we going to keep watching this?" and didn't. She will watch almost anything. That is literally one of the only movies she's ever turned off.

So why is it people want to like Verhoeven so much, in a way they don't say, Michael Bay?

It may be true that if I watched some of these movies again at home, with the passage of time, I might like them better. Although I remember leaving Showgirls and saying to my wife "Do you think this will be funnier in retrospect, like so bad it's good?" and she gave a definitive "No" and was kind of mad at me for choosing to see it.
posted by bongo_x at 4:50 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Right on about Fear, though
posted by likeatoaster at 4:53 PM on June 20


Seriously. I never thought there could be someone who didn't enjoy Total Recall on SOME level.

Ahnnuld is such a thudding off-key bore in the lead that his heavy gravity drags the whole thing into wrong space-time whatever. Yes, I hated it. Also, the relentless and mostly unimaginative violence.

Maybe you had to be where I was on initial viewing:

huge Philip K Dick fan
huge fan of Robocop (Paul Verhoeven's previous film)

What could possibly go wrong? Casting.
posted by philip-random at 4:56 PM on June 20


1997 Starship Troopers

you are wrong about this however
posted by philip-random at 4:57 PM on June 20


It is thanks to Metafilter that I watched "Zardoz": it was terrible but engaging plus of course Sean Connery in a loincloth.

I think nobody has mentioned my favorite so-bad-it's-good movie: "Perfect" (1985), with John Travolta and Jamie Lee Curtis. With age it just gets better and better: the Rolling Stone Reporter glamor, the aerobics....
posted by acrasis at 5:01 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Verhoeven's Starship Troopers was like making a Dukes of Hazard movie but swapping out the The General for a New Beetle convertible.

Or a Transformers movie except a Camaro instead of Bumblebee.
posted by ckape at 5:11 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Wow this thread escalated quickly - I had a busy day so I wasn't going post earlier today but... I'm kind of regretting it now.

Re: Verhoven - those questioning his worth as a director, have you seen his non-English language films? If you haven't you should, it might put his English films into a different perspective for you. Films like Starship Troopers, Robocop and Total Recall are actually made to have that weird tone as they are subversive films. Verhoven is parodying what he thinks American action film audiences want and his take on that fascistic tone that American militaristic action films have. Verhoven is way too smart to make "bad" movies - they are self-aware films. They may not work for you but that's what he's doing. Michael Bay films? Considerably less self-aware.
posted by Ashwagandha at 5:14 PM on June 20 [3 favorites]


Am I the only one who paid to see 1941? It was embarrassing.

I will never know whether the Frank Langella Dracula got any better, because I walked out of it. I know I wasn't the only one to do that.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:18 PM on June 20


Some bugger is going to say Repo Man next and it's going to kick off.

I WAS scanning for someone to say Repo Man, but I've never been able to decide if it's completely intentionally bad or not. I mean, the story is, of course, which is why I love it so much. But the acting and production quality.

Also Suburbia
posted by ctmf at 5:31 PM on June 20


Yeah, you don't have to invent some kind of "secret key" to understand that Starship Troopers is a farcical parody of heroic war movies in the same way that Robocop is a farcical parody of vigilante-cop movies.

The difference is, Robocop still kind of works if you want to judge it as a straightforward vigilante-cop movie. Starship Troopers does not work as a heroic war movie, even though I know a few people who enjoyed it that way. This, in my opinion, makes Starship Troopers the more successful film, but it also explains why it didn't achieve the same critical and popular acceptance.

I mean, the say you can't make an anti-war war movie. But Starship Troopers is exactly that! And it works! Nobody seriously wants to be the heroes of the MI, they look like total idiots even when they're winning. Verhoeven puts his protagonists in Nazi drag and still makes them uncool. That, in itself, is a tremendous cinematic achievement.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:33 PM on June 20 [8 favorites]


When I first saw Starship Troopers, on video on a Navy ship at sea in our off time, I don't think any of us knew it was supposed to be a parody or satire. I didn't, at least. Not big SF fans in the group that night by some coincidence I guess. I got kind of grossed out part way through and quit watching; the other few guys were digging it. I just had this "off" feeling, didn't even consciously think about the Nazi connection.

Guess who turned out to be the lefty when he grew up and who didn't?
posted by ctmf at 5:43 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Exactly, tobascodagama. Well said.

Hollow Man I think is the more problematic one of Verhoven's English language action films. Its been awhile but at the time I couldn't follow where he was coming from.
posted by Ashwagandha at 5:43 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


Oh, yeah, Hollow Man is misanthropic garbage.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:12 PM on June 20


I like the bits where fire is the solution to everything, but yeah, it's mostly garbage. Def a lesser work.
posted by Artw at 6:14 PM on June 20



But what if it was a bunch of fascist wank in power armor? Wouldn't that be better?
posted by Artw at 6:33 PM on June 20 [3 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]


Yes? Of course power armor would make everything better.
posted by Carillon at 6:34 PM on June 20 [+] [!]


Stop badmouthing my beloved WH40K! WE DON'T EVEN REALLY GET A MOVIE!

(stupid mutant chronicles...)
posted by Samizdata at 7:06 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Why include 2000's undoubtably bland and flaccid face-switching technology movie Mission: Impossible II when you could instead include the operatically terrible 1997 John Woo face-switching technology movie Face/Off, starring Nicholas Cage *and* John Travolta?

Pffft.
posted by Squeak Attack at 7:18 PM on June 20 [4 favorites]


Because its good?
posted by Artw at 7:44 PM on June 20 [4 favorites]


I remember liking Josie and the Pussycats, but not why, along with a feeling of shame. Can someone explain this?

And can i just say Waterworld. An unforgettable/unrememberable experience..
posted by Zerowensboring at 7:51 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Dudes like Wiseau and the Birdemic guy lack chops because they don't feel that they need to possess tools or formal training

Perhaps true about Birdemic, but watching The Room is nigh indistinguishable from what an enthusiastic visiting alien with only a rough working understanding of not only the rules of people, but also time and objects, might produce. Wiseau's friendly-void-crabs-in-a-skinsuit appearance and demeanour doesn't detract from that,either. I'm also looking forward to The Disaster Artist.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 8:08 PM on June 20 [1 favorite]


Gina Gershon on Showgirls. She knew it was going to suck.
posted by axiom at 8:23 PM on June 20 [2 favorites]


I can't believe The Room isn't available streaming. Who am I kidding, nothing is ever available streaming. Am I really going to have to buy this?
posted by bongo_x at 8:37 PM on June 20


But what if it was a bunch of fascist wank in power armor? Wouldn't that be better?

According to noted Future Historian Joe Hadleman... all. kinds. of. NOPE!
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:21 PM on June 20


But what if it was a bunch of fascist wank in power armor? Wouldn't that be better?

According to noted Future Historian Joe Hadleman... all. kinds. of. NOPE!


I am going to agree that I am right and you are so wrong that you made your cited source non-existent.
posted by Samizdata at 12:16 AM on June 21


Hollow Man is a lesser work, it's true, but it does have what I think is the world's first CGI boob-palpation-by-invisible-hand, and the DVD extras also reveal that they had Kevin Bacon perform every invisible scene and then green screened him out even when it would have worked just fine not to have him there at all, just so as to capture every nuance of his performance.
posted by Mocata at 1:42 AM on June 21


I can't get through a complete sitting of "How Did This Get Made?" It requires a sexism filter, and they can't seem to avoid shouting over the women contributors. Red Letter Media is even worse. If kidnapping and torturing women was a funny concept, those skits still wouldn't be funny.

And my favorite Bad/Good movie is From Dusk Til Dawn. Harvey Keitel is an old fuddy-duddy. This dude with the cool hair has a gun for a penis. A pencil is used to pierce a vampire's heart, in lieu of yer standard issue hunter stake. There is no hint or warning about these shenanigans in the first half of the film.
posted by Brocktoon at 3:07 AM on June 21 [4 favorites]


FROM DUSK TIL DAWN IS BRILLIANT AND THERE IS NOBODY WHO THINKS IT IS BAD/GOOD EXCEPT YOU AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD ABOUT YOURSELF.

Oh, um... I mean... Yeah, I like that movie.
posted by hippybear at 3:28 AM on June 21 [1 favorite]


I strongly prefer to watch The Room with the Riff that includes Mike, Kevin and Bill singing "There's a Hole in the Bucket" to distract themselves during one of the long, unpleasant sex scenes.

Some other movies that should have been on this list:
Hard Ticket to Hawaii

Ninja Busters
Deadly Prey
Enter the Ninja and its sequels
posted by heatvision at 3:52 AM on June 21


But what if it was a bunch of fascist wank in power armor? Wouldn't that be better?

Shit, it just hit me. Starship Troopers is satirical fascist wank that does it so well that it played to its audience as just straight out fascist wank, and thus became real, unironic fascist wank.

Verhoeven's Starship Troopers is the foundational text for the alt-right.
posted by Naberius at 6:39 AM on June 21 [5 favorites]


"It's just a meme, bro!" [proceeds to elect actual racist authoritatian]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 6:45 AM on June 21


I am really excited to go home and watch a bear get thrown into space.

I think Center Stage belongs in the top 50. It's A M A Z I N G. Zoe Saldana as a bad attitude ballerina (you can tell she's really bad because she smokes!). Ilia Kulik - famous Russian ice skater - plays Sergei! There is a love triangle and an incredible, sassy final dance featuring a motorcycle!

They also missed Teen Witch, which has one of the best raps of all time.
posted by Stonkle at 6:47 AM on June 21


Verhoeven's Starship Troopers is the foundational text for the alt-right.

No, Warhammer 40k is the foundational text for the alt-right.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:47 AM on June 21 [1 favorite]


I thought that was Rogue Trader?
posted by Carillon at 8:19 AM on June 21 [1 favorite]


It might be worth pointing out that Verhoeven is perhaps the only living big name director with actual personal experience of living under the Nazis.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 1:37 PM on June 21 [4 favorites]


Roman Polanski survived the Krakow ghetto, for whatever that's worth.
posted by Think_Long at 1:59 PM on June 21 [2 favorites]


I can't get through a complete sitting of "How Did This Get Made?" It requires a sexism filter, and they can't seem to avoid shouting over the women contributors.

Oh, really? I'll still give it a try, but the casual sexism of men on podcasts tends to be a dealbreaker for me.

I'm sad Supergirl isn't on here - I love that movie but a lot of people call it bad. Other "bad" movies I love in the Mortal Kombat and Masters of the Universe vein include: Bloodsport, the aforementioned Legend, Dragonheart, Willow, The Beastmaster, Krull, and Baz Lurhman's recent Great Gatsby. Enthusiastic, dramatic to the point of melodrama, and shiny are kind of my jam; bonus points if there's a happy ending.
posted by Deoridhe at 3:32 PM on June 21 [1 favorite]


This AskMe trying to remember a YA book just coincidentally came up in my Recent Activity if anyone wants to have a go!
posted by lalex at 4:33 PM on June 21


238 comments and not one mention of Cobra.

I thought I knew you people.
posted by raider at 8:24 PM on June 21 [3 favorites]


That's... actually a bad movie and it's badness is what can make it enjoyable.

My god.
posted by Artw at 8:50 PM on June 21


For some reason I had originally assumed that How Did This Get Made actually answered the titular question and felt pretty let down when I tried out a few episodes.
posted by ckape at 9:24 PM on June 21 [3 favorites]


Nthing How Did This Get Made being pretty hard to listen to at times. My business partner is a huge fan so I've heard a few. The way they shout down the female contributors is pretty gross as far as I'm concerned and I personally don't find them nearly as funny as think they are.

They recently did Godfrey Ho's Ninja Terminator (or they are about to do it?) so I was tempted to have a listen to what "regular" people make of Godfrey Ho.

Re: Cobra - if you want a laugh listen to the director's commentary for Cobra. He thought he was making a masterpiece!
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:26 AM on June 22 [1 favorite]


HDTGM peaked at its Punisher War Zone episide and most other episodes just sound like people rolling around on the floor cackling incoherently.
posted by Artw at 9:10 AM on June 22 [1 favorite]


> I'm sad Supergirl isn't on here - I love that movie but a lot of people call it bad. Other "bad" movies I love in the Mortal Kombat and Masters of the Universe vein include: Bloodsport, the aforementioned Legend, Dragonheart, Willow, The Beastmaster, Krull, and Baz Lurhman's recent Great Gatsby. Enthusiastic, dramatic to the point of melodrama, and shiny are kind of my jam; bonus points if there's a happy ending.

You should definitely check out Hundra, then, if you haven't seen it already. It's an enjoyably bad movie with a few surprisingly good aspects (including a score by Enrico Morricone and a badass male barbarians vs. female warriors scene at the very beginning).
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:55 AM on June 22


The thing that makes The Warriors great isn't that it's based on the Anabasis or the Odyssey or whatever, but that it's gloriously, utterly unabashedly not based on its ostensible subject, the street gangs of NYC. It makes West Side Story look like a gritty, warts-and-all documentary. Everything from "Can you dig it?" to "No reason, I just like doing things like that" is very much its own thing. Plus, it has the most gloriously over-the-top movie tough-guy line ever: "I'm gonna shove that bat up your ass and turn you into a popsicle."
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:57 AM on June 22 [4 favorites]


Verhoeven's Starship Troopers is the foundational text for the alt-right.

No, Warhammer 40k is the foundational text for the alt-right.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:47 AM on June 21 [1 favorite +] [!]


I thought that was Rogue Trader?
posted by Carillon at 10:19 AM on June 21 [1 favorite −] [!]


Nope. I love 40K and I am not an alt-right person.
posted by Samizdata at 11:02 AM on June 22 [1 favorite]



I'm sad Supergirl isn't on here - I love that movie but a lot of people call it bad. Other "bad" movies I love in the Mortal Kombat and Masters of the Universe vein include: Bloodsport, the aforementioned Legend, Dragonheart, Willow, The Beastmaster, Krull, and Baz Lurhman's recent Great Gatsby. Enthusiastic, dramatic to the point of melodrama, and shiny are kind of my jam; bonus points if there's a happy ending.


Pretty much down with that whole list, except for Bloodsport and I haven't seen Gatsby.

(running through my head right now)

"What is this? A little weaSEL?" /TimCurry

Also, I'll have a squirt, if you're finished with it.
posted by Samizdata at 11:04 AM on June 22


40Ks blacker than black humor often gets lost in translation and leaves me a little worried about fans who are too into it, it's true.
posted by Artw at 11:05 AM on June 22 [3 favorites]


I love 40k, too. I have a stacks of of Ciaphas Cain, Gaunt's Ghost, and Eisenhorn novels.

But it's also really, really, really popular with alt-right types who either don't catch or blissfully, intentionally ignore the satire of the original editions. And it's not like GW hasn't been playing directly into the desires of the alt-reich-adjacent fanbase and quietly sleeping the satirical stuff under the rug for a while.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:08 AM on June 22 [3 favorites]


Oh, Christ, not one but TWO horrible typos. Sigh.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:32 AM on June 22


Only wor!
posted by Artw at 11:35 AM on June 22 [3 favorites]


I love 40K too but I play Orks and Necrons.
posted by Mitheral at 12:32 PM on June 22 [1 favorite]


Haha I love 40k as well Samizdata and am very much not alt-right, I was making a dumb joke about rogue trader being the foundational text for the 40k verse not saying there was a real connection.
posted by Carillon at 12:42 PM on June 22 [1 favorite]


I love 40K too but I play Orks and Necrons.
posted by Mitheral at 2:32 PM on June 22 [+] [!]


Does it make me a bad person I skew IG? Seriously, man, artillery.
posted by Samizdata at 12:43 PM on June 22 [4 favorites]


Oh, Christ, not one but TWO horrible typos. Sigh.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:32 PM on June 22 [+] [!]


Give me my fingers back, you!

(I dream of the day I can get Ghost In The Shell expando cyberfingers so I can make typos faster and more efficiently than ever.)
posted by Samizdata at 12:45 PM on June 22 [1 favorite]


And Leman Russ!
posted by Carillon at 6:18 PM on June 22


I vote for Demolition Man and Death Wish 3.

I've decided that the best way to understand Trump voters is to watch Death Wish 3. They think it's real, like Jesus or Sean Hannity.
posted by stewiethegreat at 2:11 PM on June 26


I like the IG but I feel strongly that the model for them should be WWI and earlier infantry and not, you know, Starship Troopers and Aliens.

Also the Soace Marines should be more Medeival knights than Aliens too.
posted by Artw at 2:16 PM on June 26


I mean, I guess the main thing is that the IG should be working class types who are allowed to grumble about their inevitable grim fate, if only when the officer Class and commissars are not around, versus the Marines who are nutjobs who rush towards their own destruction. But everyone is doomed, basically.
posted by Artw at 2:18 PM on June 26


You really need to read the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. It's more or less literally Sharpe's Rifles... IN SPACE.

Also, there's one (Straight Silver) where the Ghosts get dropped on to a planet where the local Guard regiment and PDF are actually fighting with WWI-level tactics and the major conflict is Gaunt trying to get the Guard commander he's attached to to consider maybe letting his regiment of skilled scouts that specialises in stealth do some stealthy scouting instead of throwing themselves into senseless human wave attacks.

(Which is, in itself, an adaptation of a Sharpe's Rifles story where the commander Sharpe's unit gets attached to insists on using them as front line infantry rather than long-range skirmishers.)

*scrolls back up to the original post*

I'm... not entirely sure how this conversation took this particular turn. Even though it's partly my fault.
posted by tobascodagama at 4:47 PM on June 26


Yes, that is exactly the right way to do IG.

I'm often a bit iffy on Dabnet because I can't stand Sinister Dexter (a recuring 2000ad fixture) but he does a good job on those books. Tiny bit more cosy than I like in WH what with the occasional respite from horror and death but I'm pretty bloodthristy.

Have you checked out the Gordon Rennie Battlefleet Gothic books that are basicaly Hornblower novels in spaaaaaace?

(No idea how we got here either. It's probably my fault.)
posted by Artw at 5:35 PM on June 26


I have not, but I'll put those on my list.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:38 PM on June 26


See Death Bed: The Bed that Eats. Seriously. Watch it alone, or with friends, sober or fucked up on the substance of your choice. You will have a blast. It's a...well, a singular vision that took over five years to make.

Seriously, if you only watch one movie about a bed that can suck the skin off someone's hands, leaving them vaguely bummed out, watch this one.
posted by skullhead at 2:25 PM on July 6


Oh, Christ, you've just reminded me that I somehow went this whole thread without mentioning Blood Car.

Go watch Blood Car. Anna Chlumsky's in it.

It also beat Syfy to the "cars that run on blood" idea by a decade.
posted by tobascodagama at 3:37 PM on July 6 [1 favorite]


« Older Something with lactate crystals. Manchego?   |   TOTAL SOLAR ECLIPSE STAMPS WILL REVEAL HIDDEN MOON... Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments