Trevor Noah's best Daily Show segment yet.
June 23, 2017 5:02 PM   Subscribe

"What they're basically saying is: 'In America, it is officially reasonable to be afraid of a person just because they are black'." Trevor Noah's June 21 address to camera on the Philando Castile verdict was stark, heartfelt and undeniable in its hard truth. It matches the very best of what Jon Stewart was able to achieve with the show.
posted by Paul Slade (155 comments total) 100 users marked this as a favorite
 
Trevor Noah has just gotten better and better in his role. I love how he has not tried to emulate or copy Jon Stewart, but has taken his own path. His bits about Trump are generally fantastic -- in another segment on that episode, incredulous again at Presidential inanity, he asks, "Who is this man?" (and he wants an answer). I totally agree re this segment about the Castile shooting: very powerful, very articulate.
posted by anothermug at 5:25 PM on June 23, 2017 [19 favorites]


Stealing this from a friend of mine's facebook post after the verdict came out. By the way, he's a very well educated professional from one of the top five universities in the country who probably, no, certainly brings home a six figure salary:

"I had the police talk when I was 16, and I still keep insurance and registration in the visor."

Guess what color his skin is.
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:33 PM on June 23, 2017 [55 favorites]


A few thoughts.

The police are out of control.

Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan were all horrible mistakes.

Basic healthcare and housing are human rights.

Compare the number of Americans who know these things are true to the number of elected officials who will say these things are true, and the gap is terrifyingly wide.

Who do even Democrats bend over backwards for police union support when these unions fight tooth and nail against even the most mild reforms, such as civilian review boards? Why does every politician want to pose with a wall of cops behind them, as if that means something good?

Lastly, civil asset forfeiture is another policy that disproportionately impacts minorities and the poor, and it's virtually ignored by the media.
posted by Beholder at 5:36 PM on June 23, 2017 [64 favorites]


I counted just less than 2 seconds from the first "don't" till the cop opened fire.

Even the ED-209 gave you 20 seconds to comply.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 5:54 PM on June 23, 2017 [30 favorites]


When I heard that the jury acquitted the police officer, I thought, "That jury was essentially saying, if you are black in America, you do not have the human rights that white people do. They are saying, you are less than human." How anyone can watch that video and NOT admit that the United States has entrenched and institutionalized racism against black people is beyond me.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:00 PM on June 23, 2017 [84 favorites]


For reasons I can't yet articulate, I can only see this as a ritual killing.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 6:07 PM on June 23, 2017 [12 favorites]


I've loved Trevor Noah from his first days, and he just keeps getting better and better. He's reaching his point of relaxing into his role and finding his voice, finally, and this segment felt like something similar to Stewart's talking about the 911 First Responders and their lack of health care support.

I want him to keep going. We need his voice today. This segment was brilliant, the current The Daily Show is brilliant, it's two steps ahead of where we should be today, and I don't know if today will catch up, but I love it.
posted by hippybear at 6:11 PM on June 23, 2017 [19 favorites]


Trevor Noah has been in good form and I hear more and more people talking about how he's found his own way and made the show his own.

Similarly, if you're into podcasts, I suggest you subscribe to Larry Wilmore's Black on the Air. After he lost his show, a damn shame, he found his place back on to the air waves and he's keeping it 100!
posted by Fizz at 6:19 PM on June 23, 2017 [26 favorites]


I also listen to Black On The Air. It's insightful in ways I was not expecting, and it's a welcome hour once a week!
posted by hippybear at 6:24 PM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]


Is there a previously thread that I missed regarding the Philando Castile verdict on the blue that I missed somehow? I note that this is the only fpp with the PhilandoCastile tag.

Yeah Trevor Noah is great but holy fuck, shit like this makes me think.. uncharitable thoughts lets say. Words can't express how disappointed I am in everyone, except the victims.
posted by some loser at 6:30 PM on June 23, 2017 [3 favorites]


I totally agree re this segment about the Castile shooting: very powerful, very articulate.

Just FYI, Articulate While Black is a searchable phrase. The second video released, of the girl comforting her mother, compounds the dismay of this travesty.

This horror demonstrates how confounding US law can be in terms of its criminal and civil domains, and how necessary and nuanced is intent.

The "officer" was fired (distanced) because the victim's compliance and the officer's panic are plain and many predict the civil case (America's blood money) is a known outcome .
posted by lazycomputerkids at 6:32 PM on June 23, 2017 [16 favorites]


It's shocking to me that the really great short-episode podcast 74 Seconds hasn't been posted on The Blue. It's local radio reporters covering the Yanez trial as it happens. (Happened, at this point.) Riveting reporting.
posted by hippybear at 6:34 PM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]


(not the Castile trial. He's not on trial here. It's Yanez that was on trial. For shooting a man in his car. Who was reaching for his wallet. With two other people in the car with him.

The police officer got off because he was somehow reasonably full of fear in the situation.

I have a lot to say about this entire situation, but I think there's really nothing left to say. Acquitted. Of shooting a black man to death in his car. Because he was scared.

If I carried a gun and could shoot someone every time I felt scared and get away with it, I'd have a trail of bodies going back to 1990 when I came out as queer in a small southern NM town.
posted by hippybear at 6:39 PM on June 23, 2017 [128 favorites]


His off-air comments to the studio audience are also great and important to hear.
posted by twsf at 6:39 PM on June 23, 2017 [30 favorites]


When he started, a lot of people had a lot to say about Trevor not being from here, but his voice, I find, is even more powerful because he came from Apartheid South Africa and thus has an excellent first-person basis for comparison. I work on the show, and I can't even begin to describe what it's been like out on the studio floor every night. The energy is incredible, and on this particular night I felt like you could have heard a speck of dust land on the floor on stage.
posted by nevercalm at 6:47 PM on June 23, 2017 [128 favorites]


I have a lot to say about this entire situation, but I think there's really nothing left to say. Acquitted. Of shooting a black man to death in his car. Because he was scared.

That cop panicked. Straight up, "my mother seeing a spider" freaked the fuck out. We are all fortunate it wasn't more of a bloodbath, because he all but pissed himself there.

Talk about lacking the temperament to be a cop. With all the training he was supposed to have, and all the pay, his reaction was straight up unacceptable.

I get that he didn't shoot out of malice, but losing your shit and killing someone is still manslaughter. Or ought to be.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 6:50 PM on June 23, 2017 [72 favorites]


Believe me, as a home viewer who usually does TDS sort of side-eye and ear-open while looking at MetaFilter and other websites, I was sitting in my chair staring entirely unblinking at my television amazed at what I was watching happen. It was maybe only 1/10th as electric in my living room as it was live, but I have goosebumps just typing this and why do I have tears now and shit
posted by hippybear at 6:51 PM on June 23, 2017 [10 favorites]


but losing your shit and killing someone is still manslaughter.

One might think...
posted by hippybear at 6:52 PM on June 23, 2017 [3 favorites]


Off-duty St. Louis officer injured by 'friendly fire' after police chase of stolen car

According to a department summary of the incident released later Thursday, two officers who encountered the armed off-duty officer ordered him to the ground. He complied. When they recognized the off-duty officer, they told him he could stand up and walk toward them.

Another officer just arriving at the scene saw the off-duty officer get up and, not knowing he was an officer, fired his weapon once at the man. He hit the off-duty officer in the arm, the department said.


They're basically trained to shoot black people on sight to a degree that they are unable to not be a deadly hazard.
posted by Artw at 7:01 PM on June 23, 2017 [96 favorites]


Same here, hippybear. That show had me gasping in disbelief, and then bawling my eyes out. I am horrified by what is happening in this country, but I am glad that Trevor Noah is there to help shine a light.
posted by blurker at 7:12 PM on June 23, 2017 [3 favorites]


.

Fuck.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:20 PM on June 23, 2017 [5 favorites]


Thanks for posting this video -- after watching it, it prompted me to Google "Philando Castile jury" and the first article that popped up was a Salon article titled The Philando Castile jury was stacked with pro-gun, pro-cop, middle-aged white people. Worth a read. So, so, so sad and anger-inducing.
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 7:31 PM on June 23, 2017 [18 favorites]


I'm don't really consider Salon to be any more credible than Fox News, really.

But interesting article.
posted by hippybear at 7:35 PM on June 23, 2017


According to a reporter who covered the Yanez case, the two jurors who for a while held out for a conviction were both white men, and not the two black jurors.
posted by gyc at 7:42 PM on June 23, 2017 [5 favorites]


Is there a previously thread that I missed regarding the Philando Castile verdict on the blue that I missed somehow? I note that this is the only fpp with the PhilandoCastile tag.

Not that I've seen. I asked about doing one; nothing stopping anyone from doing so.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:47 PM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]


I'm glad TN did this segment, I don't know if I would have watched the dashcam footage otherwise and it's important that I did.
posted by mrmurbles at 7:52 PM on June 23, 2017 [6 favorites]


There was some discussion in the Trump threads, which tend to be a roll up of everything horrible and racist going on.
posted by Artw at 7:56 PM on June 23, 2017


Wow.

Just....

Wow.
posted by Samizdata at 7:58 PM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]


"I had the police talk when I was 16, and I still keep insurance and registration in the visor."

I got the police talk along with the rest of my class in drivers ed, because it was a class filled with mostly black kids with a black teacher. Like, we talked about that and then we talked about how to pass a motorcycle. It wasn't until I mentioned it a few years later that I realized that it's not a standard thing. Honestly, it was probably the most useful safety lesson, but also kind of feels like teaching kids to hide under desks during a nuclear strike, or how the police would also come in and tell preteen girls what bathroom stall to use so they don't get assaulted.

It also wasn't the first time most of the class had received a police talk - I'd started being party to them when I was around 11-12, and nobody was under the illusion that they were directed at my white ass in any real way. That's also around the same age I started getting invited to the mall as the white escort to friends so they wouldn't be harassed by security guards.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:00 PM on June 23, 2017 [21 favorites]


The other thing is that I used to tell people about getting the DWB talk in drivers ed, and until maybe three years ago white people just found it funny.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:05 PM on June 23, 2017 [12 favorites]


Don't think this is evidence if something new. It's been going on since cops got guns in this country.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:07 PM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]


I imagine the post includes a second-hand recording because American television shows are nearly always posted by their "official" sources with stupid region blocking, but just in case someone inside the USA wants to watch the full quality official clip of this, I think this is the right video?
posted by trackofalljades at 8:07 PM on June 23, 2017 [4 favorites]


I also have no idea why the same ruled we followed in the infantry isn't applied to cops: in an urban situation, you do not shoot until fired upon. They point a gun at you? Too bad. Hold fire. Until the bullet passes you or hits you, you don't fire.

You want to wear the uniform, you want to be a badass? Well that takes discipline.

Fucking cowards and racists.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:11 PM on June 23, 2017 [193 favorites]


The whole incident is not much longer than what they show here. Maybe 40s all told.
posted by billjings at 8:12 PM on June 23, 2017


74 seconds from the time Yanez turned his lights on to pull over Castille until the shots were done being fired.

That's why the podcast I linked to above is called 74 Seconds.
posted by hippybear at 8:16 PM on June 23, 2017 [28 favorites]


You can't even microwave a burrito in 74 seconds, but this man lost his life because a white man was afraid of a black man who told him calmly that he had a gun but that he wasn't reaching for it to get his wallet.

If I were black and living in the US right now, I'd never have my ID in my wallet. I'd have it in a binder-clip on the visor.
posted by hippybear at 8:17 PM on June 23, 2017 [4 favorites]


His reading of his autobiography (extract sample on Soundcloud), Born a Crime, is great, both to hear his story, and to hear him tell it. (And I'd love to hear some of his party mixtapes, but that's a silly tangent in a serious thread.)
posted by filthy light thief at 8:22 PM on June 23, 2017 [1 favorite]


I too was horrified by that footage. God.

On a lighter note, Trevor Noah is indeed great, and in comedy terms has one advantage over Stewart: he is an excellent mimic, and every time he attempts a voice he nails it.
posted by JHarris at 8:24 PM on June 23, 2017 [5 favorites]




That cop exhibited classic roid rage plain and simple.
posted by notreally at 8:48 PM on June 23, 2017 [1 favorite]


I also have no idea why the same ruled we followed in the infantry isn't applied to cops: in an urban situation, you do not shoot until fired upon.

According to Hudson a key piece of the defense was the video of the incident which shows Castille saying he has a gun, and then Yanez repeatedly ordering Castille not to "pull it out" with 5-6 seconds elapsing between giving the order and finally shooting him. Prior to the video the jury was split 6-6 and afterwards it was 10-2 in favor of acquittal. Also key was the evidence showing that it would take 0.28 seconds to pull a gun and shoot from Castille's position (hand holding a potential weapon in his pocket) versus 0.5 seconds for Yanez to respond to that movement.

At point blank range if you're fired upon you're basically already done for: you have to fire first if you want to live. That's the consequence of a society where you must assume everyone is carrying a gun: officers must make life and death decisions in a fraction of a second.
posted by xdvesper at 8:55 PM on June 23, 2017


Prior to the video the jury was split 6-6 and afterwards it was 10-2

The video was shown as part of the prosecution's opening statements. Did the jury take a vote before the trial even began? Otherwise, this is Fake News, and you should be ashamed.
posted by hippybear at 8:57 PM on June 23, 2017 [45 favorites]


The silver lining on this cloud is that the NRA, clearly upset by Castile being killed for exercising his second amendment rights, has started a nationwide campaign to help local police forces train for the specific case of what to do when you think an otherwise-unhostile citizen is carrying a weapon. They'll be working with local minority groups to provide actors of color so police can practice those exact situations more specifically, and focusing on nonlethal tactics. For example, the officer here could simply have strafed a few feet toward the rear of the car to give himself an excellent defensive firing line while preventing a firing angle from any potential attacker, giving him precious seconds to clarify his verbal commands and prevent a shooting.

[fake]

Of course not, those fuckers haven't said anything.
posted by 0xFCAF at 9:02 PM on June 23, 2017 [80 favorites]


The Hard Times may have one of the sickest burns of the NRA I've seen.
posted by BrotherCaine at 9:03 PM on June 23, 2017 [37 favorites]


I realize from my old white guy perspective, I don't get the full impact of the racism that is going on here... but if we wanted to stop this from happening again... everyone needed to stop moving for a few seconds to calm the heck down... and deal with the gun before resuming the normal traffic stop stuff.

Saying I'm not doing X while moving in any way sends mixed signals, to a scared as shit cop...

Anyway... what a tragedy...
posted by MikeWarot at 9:09 PM on June 23, 2017


Who among us hasn't calmly frozen their entire body after having a gun pulled on us because we followed proper concealed carry procedure. It's just second nature, after all.
posted by 0xFCAF at 9:14 PM on June 23, 2017 [24 favorites]


everyone needed to stop moving for a few seconds to calm the heck down

No. There was no reason to not be calm at all. Nobody had to calm down. The cop with the gun shot 7 times before anyone but he himself was calm.
posted by yesster at 9:15 PM on June 23, 2017 [37 favorites]


Nope. As we learned from the incident with the guy having a stroke, not moving is also suspicious and provokes the police to violence. (A Taser(TM) brand pain-based compliance tool, as I recall.)

A cop without gun discipline is a danger no matter what you do.
posted by traveler_ at 9:15 PM on June 23, 2017 [50 favorites]


According to a reporter who covered the Yanez case, the two jurors who for a while held out for a conviction were both white men, and not the two black jurors.

My working theory is that the black jurors knew goddamn well they weren't going to change the minds of the eight white people who decided that Yanez hadn't done anything wrong.
posted by mightygodking at 9:17 PM on June 23, 2017 [1 favorite]


Yanez alerted an officer in another car that he was pulling Castile over because he had a "wide-set nose" similar to a robbery suspect. The broken taillight was just an excuse.

Castile's capital crime was having a "wide-set nose."
posted by JackFlash at 9:22 PM on June 23, 2017 [38 favorites]



Saying I'm not doing X while moving in any way sends mixed signals, to a scared as shit cop...


The key is not to put shit-scared cops on the street, but one of the purposes of US police is to kill black people, so
posted by rhizome at 9:35 PM on June 23, 2017 [32 favorites]


he escalated in seconds. There were other people in the car. Including a child. What about this is unclear? I was under the perhaps mistaken impression that the motto of to protect and to serve meant to protect all the people. My bad.
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 9:49 PM on June 23, 2017 [33 favorites]


Prior to the video the jury was split 6-6 and afterwards it was 10-2
The video was shown as part of the prosecution's opening statements. Did the jury take a vote before the trial even began?


This may have been a misreading of a comment from a reddit AMA by Bill Hudson, a reporter covering the case:
What struck me was their reaction to the playing of the officer Yanez squad video. There was complete silence in the courtroom when it was played for the first time. From the few jurors we actually spoke with the deliberations began split, 6-6 and eventually after 4 days was down to 10-2 in favor of acquittal.
The whole thing is interesting although, you know, reddit. Some of his answers are here (don't read the comments).
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 9:54 PM on June 23, 2017 [4 favorites]


but if we wanted to stop this from happening again... everyone needed to stop moving for a few seconds to calm the heck down

Innocent black men and children are killed by the police while standing still. Lying down. Running away. Standing handcuffed in the back of a police van. Walking down the street. Yet every time someone says it's their demeanor that's the problem.

These men all have one thing in common, and it's not how they behaved.

The tragedy here is racist police brutality, and if we want to stop this from happening again, we need to hold police officers responsible for their actions.
posted by Emily's Fist at 10:05 PM on June 23, 2017 [146 favorites]


This segment and the "Between The Scenes" more than any of his others seems to have sent Black Twitter rolling and saying "I told you so" to Noah. His position on race in the USA has definitely evolved since he started hosting TDS. Pre-TDS and even in the early episodes, he approached the subject with a sort of know-it-all detachment. Like, he seemed to be operating under the assumption that it couldn't possibly be as bad as African-Americans said, they were overreacting, and he should know because he grew up mixed-race in South Africa and that experience totally translates to being Black in the USA.

I don't know whether it's just from being immersed in the news all day or talking to more Black people who actually grew up in the States or what, but from the wide-eyed astonishment and indignation in these segments it appears he's truly absorbing that not only are things as bad as those African-Americans have been saying, but as long as he lives in this country he has to worry about those things, too.

This is not to shit on this commentary, because I think this segment and the "Between The Scenes" segment are excellent and powerful and real. And depressingly, I think the fact he didn't come to the USA until he was an adult gives his opinion weight--specifically to non-Black audiences. It's like he's an explorer discovering this country's particular brand of racism alongside us, rather than being "biased" because he's been forced to deal with it from birth.
posted by Anonymous at 11:22 PM on June 23, 2017


I thought everyone kept their license and registration on their visor. Overflowing white privilege says it's just more convenient. Now I know there is another reason.

Trevor Noah did a fantastic job with this. The Yanez jury can go to hell.
posted by bryon at 11:23 PM on June 23, 2017 [4 favorites]


Something that's often brought up as a justification for the US police being on the edge all the time is how dangerous the profession is. But often the profession doesn't even make it to the top 10 list.
posted by Harald74 at 12:32 AM on June 24, 2017 [10 favorites]


I imagine the post includes a second-hand recording because American television shows are nearly always posted by their "official" sources with stupid region blocking, but just in case someone inside the USA wants to watch the full quality official clip of this, I think this is the right video yt ?
posted by trackofalljades at 8:07 PM on June 23 [2 favorites +] [!]


You're right - I'm posting from London and the original Comedy Central clip is blocked here, which is why I chose the alternative. Apologies if that caused problems for anyone.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:44 AM on June 24, 2017


Thank you for the reminder that I do not watch enough Trevor Noah.

His off-air comments to the studio audience are also great and important to hear.
posted by twsf


This was also really good.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 2:11 AM on June 24, 2017 [2 favorites]


So here's a question: Has any black US citizen ever gone to Europe and claimed asylum on account of being persecuted for being black?

Because, I think that would actually be a very powerful thing. It would create a real stir.
The relevant authorities in Europe would tie themselves into a knot in order to prove that there is no discrimination, but that might be difficult and would shine a real light on the problems. Also, I think the chances of being accepted are not so small, considering the relatively low bar used for citizens of other countries.

Of course, you'd need to be prepared to live in Europe for a while, but contrary to what you see on US TV, it's not really all that bad a place to live. Wouldn't really recommend the UK at the moment, though, if only because they'd be less sympathetic to the cause due to their special relationship.
posted by sour cream at 2:21 AM on June 24, 2017 [4 favorites]


So here's a question: Has any black US citizen ever gone to Europe and claimed asylum on account of being persecuted for being black?
I don't know that anyone claimed asylum, but black people moving to Europe for a safer life was a thing in the -50's and 60's, and then of course to avoid the draft during Vietnam.
posted by mumimor at 3:03 AM on June 24, 2017 [8 favorites]


Not to abuse the edit function, I forgot the point: Nobody seemed to care much in the US
posted by mumimor at 3:05 AM on June 24, 2017


I've loved how Noah is normalizing people who aren't white men comment on all kinds of things. With Stewart, women were rolled out for woman things and people of color were rolled out for people of color things (sometimes not even their own culture), but a lot of the non-specific commentary was by white men. I was charmed the first time Noah had a black woman come out and talk about the issue of the day - how stupid Congress was or something.

I'm glad people are beginning to give him his props.
posted by Deoridhe at 3:24 AM on June 24, 2017 [20 favorites]


Nobody seemed to care much in the US

Yeah, but that was before the age of reality TV.
posted by sour cream at 3:26 AM on June 24, 2017


There was this guy but his application was denied by Canada. And I feel there was someone like Paul Robeson back in the day who at least made the point that American racism was that dangerous -- but I believe the main driver of especially entertainers moving there was left-wing politics, similar to whites like Burt Lancaster (or Robeson, or Belafonte). Blacks could also avoid a lot of grief by basing their careers there, such as Nina Simone. But as far as asylum I don't think it came up much.
posted by dhartung at 3:52 AM on June 24, 2017


So here's a question: Has any black US citizen ever gone to Europe and claimed asylum on account of being persecuted for being black?

It's something that would be tricky to argue, because while rates of excess police involvement with non-white people are almost universally lower in Europe, that's against a background of much lower police control and violence. So, for example, while the incarceration rate of black people in England & Wales is lower than in the US, the disproportionality to which black people are imprisoned is higher in England & Wales. I would look up more figures, but
considering the relatively low bar used for [asylum claims from] citizens of other countries
then you come out with this fact free, not racist but number 1 with racists, statement, and, eh, it seems like a failure to engage properly.

But, while 99.9% of American citizens travelling to the UK are accepted at the border, if Border Force (beautiful choice of name there, Theresa) got wind of the fact that someone was planning to claim asylum on arrival, you can bet that they'd be getting an uncomfortable night in a back room at Heathrow before a very expensive trip back to the US. I can't speak for other countries. (And the only American I've heard from while actually in a Border Force back room was at Gatwick and white.)
posted by ambrosen at 4:12 AM on June 24, 2017 [1 favorite]


So here's a question: Has any black US citizen ever gone to Europe and claimed asylum on account of being persecuted for being black?

Not exactly asylum, but Josephine Baker left the US, renounced her citizenship, and became a French citizen.
posted by hippybear at 4:16 AM on June 24, 2017 [3 favorites]


You want to wear the uniform, you want to be a badass? Well that takes discipline.

There's a reason the badge is modeled after a shield and not a sword. Unfortunately, that reason is that police are for defending American white supremacy.
posted by Etrigan at 4:26 AM on June 24, 2017 [15 favorites]


It's something that would be tricky to argue, because while rates of excess police involvement with non-white people are almost universally lower in Europe, that's against a background of much lower police control and violence. So, for example, while the incarceration rate of black people in England & Wales is lower than in the US, the disproportionality to which black people are imprisoned is higher in England & Wales.

No, that would be the wrong argument.

The standard is not that your minority is persecuted. You need to show that you personally are persecuted.
That would be the case if, for example, a police officer has already killed your family member (neighbor, friend...) and tells you that you're "next on his list". (Just making up an example on the fly - a thousand less violent variations are possible).

And what I meant by "low bar" is a low standard of proof. You don't have to "prove" that the police officer threatened you. That is impossible anyway - most asylum seekers coming to Europe don't even have personal papers, how could they prove anything that happend in their home country? Basically what courts do these days is do a check for plausibility: "This guy says that the Taliban threatened to kill him if he doesn't leave his village - yeah, sounds legit, let's grant him asylum." Of course, they'll press you for details, but that's mostly in order to make sure that the story isn't made up.

Mind you, I'm not suggesting that anyone makes up a story or lies, and I'm not suggesting that all black US citizens qualify for asylum in Europe. But I think there is a significant proportion who do.
posted by sour cream at 4:58 AM on June 24, 2017 [1 favorite]


I also had avoided watching the footage until viewing this segment. Here's the thing that stuck me: Yanez seemed to jump around a little and re-angle his gun in the middle of his rapid-fire rapid firing. It felt like he was rotating around. The fact that he did not hit Diamond Reynolds or her daughter is a damned miracle.
posted by maryr at 6:07 AM on June 24, 2017 [7 favorites]


No to burst your bubble - but Europe is racist as hell too... It's just in a lot of countries police don't carry guns.
posted by stevedawg at 6:25 AM on June 24, 2017 [5 favorites]


It's just in a lot of countries police don't carry guns

And there is a huge difference between being dead and not being dead.

Also, black Americans are generally received very positively in Europe. Not so much black Africans, or Asian people. I'm not defending European politics, they are disgusting. But it's obvious that very different attitudes to law enforcement makes Europe a safer space for some people who have a rough time in the US and even a safer place for the downtrodden in general. Even some of the most reviled and rejected people in Europe, the Roma, aren't shot down by police. We have this really bad historical record that goes against killing minorities…
Still, there are plenty ways Euro politicians can make life difficult for immigrants, Romas, people of color without actually killing them or depriving them of welfare.
posted by mumimor at 6:42 AM on June 24, 2017 [1 favorite]


That's the consequence of a society where you must assume everyone is carrying a gun: officers must make life and death decisions in a fraction of a second.

Except that people who are going to shoot you with their concealed weapon don't fucking announce to you that they have one and try to calm the situation down. Castile did almost everything by the book, what they tell you to do when carrying a concealed weapon and encountering the police. Truly, the best answer is put your hands on the steering wheel and don't move them, but if you're white you still get to slowly take your wallet out of your pocket when requested. This cop probably would have shot Castile for non-compliance if he'd kept his hands on the wheel anyway.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 7:32 AM on June 24, 2017 [21 favorites]


It's just in a lot of countries police don't carry guns.

As far as I know, the list is actually pretty short - UK (apart from Northern Ireland), Ireland, Norway and Iceland. After Brexit, I think Ireland will be the only country in the EU with unarmed police patrols.

Germany has 8 or 10 fatal shootings by police in a year in a population of 80 million, compared to the US figure of around 1000 a year in a population of 320 million.* If US police killed people at the same rate as German police, that would be 40 a year for the whole country.

* Wikipedia gives those as official figures for Germany and unofficial (Guardian project) figures for the US since there is no official national count.
posted by Azara at 7:43 AM on June 24, 2017 [6 favorites]


That's the consequence of a society where you must assume everyone is carrying a gun

Except it can't be reduced to this. If it were just fear of an armed citizenry, there would not be such heightened violence specifically against Black people, and we would also expect less violence against Black people who were clearly unarmed (and more against White people who were clearly armed).

Modern-day police lynchings of Black people are at the intersection of several ugly cultural attitudes, including: An authoritarian reverence for the police and for uses of force, disdain for the disadvantaged and an insistence on "perfect victims", the devaluation of standards in public service, and - most of all - racism. Gun ownership is just one factor.

We could do a lot to stop the killing without any changes to current gun laws, but we can't even get people to agree that shooting Philando Castile to death - an innocent man complying with orders - was wrong.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:10 AM on June 24, 2017 [47 favorites]


Hey, does everyone remember when the NRA denounced cops as Jack-Booted thugs and warned Americans to stock up on rifles to defend themselves? But that's back when the cops were shooting white people. (Waco, Ruby Ridge)
posted by Hactar at 8:15 AM on June 24, 2017 [4 favorites]


From this side of the Atlantic, it always grates when Americans refer to "Europe" as if it were all one undifferentiated country. The European continent comprises 50 sovereign states, each with its own unique laws, traditions, virtues and faults. The European Union alone has 28 member countries and, again, they're not all the same. Unlike in America, there's no single head of state or continent-wide media tying the whole thing together.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:50 AM on June 24, 2017 [3 favorites]


Paul Slade - can you recommend to a citizen of the U.S.a short list of which of those sovereign states would be most receptive to asylum-seekers from America claiming that their government is, if not actively involved in murdering them, certainly in favor of their deaths? When all of the people of color and all of the people without healthcare and all of the people who don't fit into to the heterosexual gender binary and, heck, all of the people who have publicly voiced their disgust with Trump and been retaliated against seek asylum, then the only people left in the U.S. will be the people who believe they should be the only people in the U.S. anyway.

And good luck to them, because things would go south really quickly without the entire creative class and everyone who cleans their toilets and cooks their take-out food.
posted by tzikeh at 9:51 AM on June 24, 2017 [1 favorite]


We have a severe racism problem. It's old and deep, and some people want to say it doesn't exist. Some people genuinely care about it as a problem, but, frankly, the problem is mostly invisible to them, and changing the institutionalized racism in the US would require significant effort.

We have a severe gun problem. There are so many guns and a culture of violence. Guns are touted as a solution, using a gun to 'solve' a problem is praised.

These 2 problems together are causing the systematic murder of black people.
posted by theora55 at 9:54 AM on June 24, 2017 [5 favorites]


As a Canadian I have to point out that the US, seen from this side of the border, isn't really one undifferentiated country either. Not as either of us is likely to recognize it. It's a commonwealth of states. And they really do mean something when they complain about 'States Rights'.

You can't get anything done at all at a national level if doing so might require centralizing authority. Add to the mix that in many jurisdictions damned near every local post (from dog catcher to sheriff) is elected and it means that some podunk hick who won a popularity contest that most of the locals couldn't be bothered to participate in gets to excercise executive power in said locale.

Historically s there's all kinds of weirdness due to the way the continent was seen as being up-for-grabs and that if a large enough group of people didn't like how a region was organizing it's self they could pick up (or be pushed out) and form their own government down the river in reaction. Growing up north of Montana you could pick out those families who had migrated from the states in previous generations and (roughly) guess when they'd come north based on the particular brand of (at the time) unpopular demographic they might belong to. Not color mind you - half of my ancestors worked hard to eradicate the other half with residential schools - there's a strong history of migration for the Irish, Ukrainians, Mormans etc who fled unwelcoming states. The last is particularity interesting. American as apple pie but late late in the 19th century several factors (including but not limited to disagreements regarding polygamy) had mormons feeling western states to Canada & Mexico. Edmonton is pretty much directly north of Salt Lake City but they're more than 1600km apart. And in the 1880s that trip would have included The Rocky Mountains, but not planes, trains, boats or (largely) roads. And Texas had been 'won' from Mexico maybe 50 years earlier.

I am not an american, but I am from the Americas. I've travelled and seen and experienced. In my opinion (which I've worked to educate but I concede comes from a very particular perspective) americans don't just look at Europe (or Africa for that matter) as a singular whole because of ignorance - a substantial number had ancestors emigrate from 'there' relatively recently remember - but also because of what they consider 'normal'. There is no American Hertitage or culture because there is no one, singular, America. Just americans.

You might have noticed, recently, that they're having some trouble 'finding themselves'. Like an angry teenager..... with nukes. They might have a president but they are not A People.
posted by mce at 9:59 AM on June 24, 2017 [14 favorites]


The key is not to put shit-scared cops on the street

The key is that they're trained to be shit-scared.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:37 AM on June 24, 2017 [14 favorites]


I am broken. Something inside me broke watching that video. God help us.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 10:41 AM on June 24, 2017 [2 favorites]


We have a severe gun problem. There are so many guns and a culture of violence. Guns are touted as a solution, using a gun to 'solve' a problem is praised.

The gun industry has a powerful lobby that promotes the increased sales of guns to boost industry profits.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:49 AM on June 24, 2017 [3 favorites]


I'm glad Noah brought up the false solution of body cams and dash cams. People that proposed that must not have lived through Rodney King, the video that the whole world saw and that resulted in an acquittal (except for one officer). We have countless videos of murder by officer, yet no convictions. This is not a technology problem, this is a racism problem.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:03 AM on June 24, 2017 [26 favorites]


Except that people who are going to shoot you with their concealed weapon don't fucking announce to you that they have one and try to calm the situation down. Castile did almost everything by the book, what they tell you to do when carrying a concealed weapon and encountering the police.

Hell yes a thousand times. This just wouldn't have happened to a white man announcing he had a gun who *didn't reach for it*
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:05 AM on June 24, 2017 [8 favorites]


If I could have got away with shooting someone because I was scared, my ex-husband would be dead.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 11:39 AM on June 24, 2017 [8 favorites]


Talk about lacking the temperament to be a cop. With all the training he was supposed to have, and all the pay, his reaction was straight up unacceptable.


I don't think the training is perfect. I looked quickly for something and this is from an Atlantic article from 2014:

Rookie officers are taught what is widely known as the “first rule of law enforcement”: An officer’s overriding goal every day is to go home at the end of their shift. But cops live in a hostile world. They learn that every encounter, every individual is a potential threat. They always have to be on their guard because, as cops often say, “complacency kills.”

Officers aren’t just told about the risks they face. They are shown painfully vivid, heart-wrenching dash-cam footage of officers being beaten, disarmed, or gunned down after a moment of inattention or hesitation. They are told that the primary culprit isn’t the felon on the video, it is the officer’s lack of vigilance. And as they listen to the fallen officer’s last, desperate radio calls for help, every cop in the room is thinking exactly the same thing: “I won’t ever let that happen to me.” That’s the point of the training.


Add just plain old racial bias to that and it is a toxic autopilot.
posted by Pembquist at 11:40 AM on June 24, 2017 [15 favorites]


In that situation, when someone's shouting at me to stop reaching for a gun, when I'm not reaching for a gun, and I'm telling them I'm not reaching for a gun, but those two things are somehow insufficient in convincing him that I'm not reaching for a gun, I'm not terribly confident in my ability to realize what exactly it is that I'm doing that he thinks looks like reaching for a gun.
posted by RobotHero at 11:51 AM on June 24, 2017 [26 favorites]


So like, two people had to make life and death decisions, but only one of them signed up for it.
posted by RobotHero at 11:52 AM on June 24, 2017 [7 favorites]


The key is that they're trained to be shit-scared.

The thing that comes to mind for me is that this is secondary to the goal of subjugating black people, much like a baseball player grunting as they huck a ball from right field to third base. It's not necessary, but it tends to be an integral part of the effort. A means to an end.
posted by rhizome at 12:02 PM on June 24, 2017


I wonder what the right thing to do in Castille's situation is. Tell the officer you have a gun but then not do anything to fulfill his request to give him your ID because reaching for it makes him think you are reaching for your weapon? Ask the officer to let you step out of the vehicle so he can get your ID from you while your hands remain visible? Open the glove compartment to show the officer where your gun is (testimony at the trial was that he put his gun in the glove compartment of his vehicle as a habit), and then what? Once the cop sees the gun, what is his training?

I mean, is there ANY circumstance wherein a cop who has a history of being emotionally unstable (again, listen to the podcast 74 Seconds if you want real depth on this trial) would not shoot you in this situation?
posted by hippybear at 12:09 PM on June 24, 2017 [7 favorites]


I wonder what the right thing to do in Castille's situation is.

Be white.
posted by magstheaxe at 12:14 PM on June 24, 2017 [27 favorites]


That's an entirely unhelpful response.
posted by hippybear at 12:16 PM on June 24, 2017


I mean, is there ANY circumstance wherein a cop who has a history of being emotionally unstable (again, listen to the podcast 74 Seconds if you want real depth on this trial) would not shoot you in this situation?

I know where you're coming from, but it's irrelevant when a cop can shoot an unarmed black person in the back with zero repercussions. That is, they're allowed even more egregious behavior, so the CCW doesn't matter.
posted by rhizome at 12:18 PM on June 24, 2017 [5 favorites]


People might also be interested in this short piece Smaller and Smaller and Smaller by the novelist Marlon James, about living in Minneapolis (/America) as a black man.
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:23 PM on June 24, 2017


> That's an entirely unhelpful response.

It's not, though. We have countless examples just from the last couple years alone that being black, male, and breathing are sufficient status to you getting shot by a nervous cop. Remember the guy who was literally lying on the ground with his hands in the air, trying to keep his mentally disabled client from being shot by the police? Got shot! Lying on the ground, hands in the air! At least he didn't get dead, so lucky him.

Before he got shot dead, Castile was pulled over more than 50 times in a few years' time, all for bullshit reasons. Me? I drove back and forth to work for months with expired tags (I forgot to put the sticker on) and got pulled over once and didn't get a ticket or even a verbal warning.
posted by rtha at 12:54 PM on June 24, 2017 [48 favorites]


rtha - exactly.

Pretending that this has anything to do with anything other than racism is to belie the basic fundamental underpinning of the situation. This is a specific example of a general trend - arguing the specifics is to beanplate the problem in service of trivialization.
posted by mce at 1:02 PM on June 24, 2017 [13 favorites]


Right, and I understand the situation with white supremacy and racism in the US and particularly how it relates to police issues.

But Philando Castile can't just suddenly Be White when he's pulled over by a cop.

So, what we need to do are develop strategies where cooperative POC and on-the-edge cops can move toward a center where nobody gets killed. Those strategies need to be taught to both cops and POC.

Am I making any sense here? We need methods to diffuse the obvious racism and race panic. How do we create these?
posted by hippybear at 1:09 PM on June 24, 2017


And while the obvious answer is "don't be racist", the reality is we live in a country that is utterly infused with white supremacy and racism and that's not actually possible.

So let's find other solutions.
posted by hippybear at 1:10 PM on June 24, 2017


hippybear, I think the idea is, change cop training and the institutional incentives that shape their behavior. Focus on that side of it, not changing the POC's already-reasonable behavior. The change has to come on the police side.
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:22 PM on June 24, 2017 [30 favorites]


hippybear I understand that you are trying to find a way to keep people from getting shot, but do you think that black people haven't spent centuries trying to solve this very problem? Do you think that millions of parents of black children haven't tried to figure out the exact right thing to tell their kids to do when stopped by the police so they get to live? Do you think that every time a black man sees police lights in his rear view mirror he isn't rehearsing what he can do or not do or say or not say to allow him to go home alive?

One of the awful consequences of a racist society, is that not only do we create situations that are impossible for POC, we then blame them for not being able to "solve" those impossible situations.
posted by mcduff at 1:23 PM on June 24, 2017 [52 favorites]


But Philando Castile can't just suddenly Be White when he's pulled over by a cop.

Understand, if there were some thing X he could have done to have avoided getting shot, then millions of white people would be asking "Why didn't he do X? He deserved it!"
posted by JHarris at 1:26 PM on June 24, 2017 [13 favorites]


I wonder what the right thing to do in Castille's situation is.

Be white.

That's an entirely unhelpful response.

But there is no other response, really. The question wasn't, "What can society do to ensure people like Philando Castile don't get murdered like this?" It was, "What is the right thing to do in Castile's situation?" ie, if you are in his position. The answer is, there is no right thing other than be white--which yes, is impossible. The situation is not one that individual black people in that position can do anything about.

This murder, on top of all the other police murders of black people, hammers home in a crystal clear way that there was never anything the black victims could have done to avoid being killed. They didn't do anything wrong. They were killed because they were black. People of colour in the US are killed by police in disproportionate numbers for not being white. It is a deeply uncomfortable truth but it is a truth. There is no point in looking for that magical right thing they could have done, because it doesn't exist. Americans as a group must continue to speak the truth, which is that black people are being killed by police, with zero consequences for the murdering police officers, because the victims are not white.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:27 PM on June 24, 2017 [46 favorites]


(BTW, I said that fully in the recognition that I am white, and am surrounded by Southern white people. I am not immune to peer influence, and am actively working against that kind of thing in my head. It's taken me a fair bit of work to see how messed up that thinking is.)
posted by JHarris at 1:30 PM on June 24, 2017 [1 favorite]


I have little doubt that race played a tremendous factor in the shooting itself. However, I suspect that race played less of a role in the actions of the jury. Juries almost never convict police officers of conduct that occurs in the line of duty.

In Wilmington, North Carolina in 2006, an 18 year old and his friend came upon a person unloading two new Playstations from his vehicle after purchasing them from Wal-Mart. They tackled him and stole the Playstations. The sheriff's department looked at the suspect's facebook page and saw him posing with guns. They showed up at his door to arrest him and they were ready for action.

They knocked on the door and no one answered. Two officers then utilized a battering ram to try to knock the door down. One of the officers mistook the sound of battering ram hitting the door right in front of him to be a gunshot. That officer fired into the closed front door. The suspect was on his way to answer the front door and was shot in the head through the door.

The DA attempted to charge that deputy with second degree murder and sent it to the grand jury to be indicted. The grand jury found that there was no probable cause and the officer wound up not being charged with anything. The officer was suspended. Local police held a raffle to raise money for the officer and his family with the winning prize being a Playstation. I am not making that up.

So not only was a jury not going to find that the officer in that case committed a crime beyond a reasonable doubt, they couldn't even find that there was probable cause to have him charged. The victim in that case was white. Juries have zero interest in convicting police of anything.
posted by flarbuse at 1:31 PM on June 24, 2017 [15 favorites]


dash-cam.... We have countless videos of murder by officer, yet no convictions. This is not a technology problem, this is a racism problem.

I do think the many videos that have come out in recent years have helped with the reflexive denial by white people though. Prior to this era of videos, I had my share of times when I unconsciously stacked something against my own experience (not accepting how entirely irrelevant my experience was) and thought, "maybe it was something about how the guy acted" or that kind of thing -- just not wanting to believe. But the videos make it impossible to deny or wish away what's happening.
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:42 PM on June 24, 2017 [7 favorites]


I'm still outraged by the acquittal of the cops who beat Rodney King.
posted by hippybear at 1:45 PM on June 24, 2017 [3 favorites]


Before he got shot dead, Castile was pulled over more than 50 times in a few years' time, all for bullshit reasons.

Wow, rtha, I didn't know that.

It makes it sound like they knew him and were trying to get something on him.

When cops run plates would a concealed carry permit automatically pop up, too?
posted by jamjam at 2:02 PM on June 24, 2017 [2 favorites]


Am I making any sense here? We need methods to diffuse the obvious racism and race panic. How do we create these?

We need to fire and prosecute police who shoot unarmed people, even if the people survive.

We need to teach police de-escalation techniques.

If you're really interested in this, look into Black Lives Matter and their allies. A lot of BLM groups are trying to work with police to change"Use of Force" guidelines and add in de-escalation and community support training instead of over-emphasizing aggression. The Use Of Force Project is another place to start.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:07 PM on June 24, 2017 [16 favorites]


Before he got shot dead, Castile was pulled over more than 50 times in a few years' time, all for bullshit reasons.

A quarter of the Ferguson municipal budget was fees levied on it's residents. In some neighboring cities, the percentage rose as high as a half of their budget [Source]. The police are very incentivized to stop and ticket residents for minor things or things which can't easily be dismissed (like a rear tail light when none is out) knowing they're time-strapped enough they won't try to fight it in court. If you look in the history of a lot of the men shot after traffic stops, you'll find their stops in a year were in the double digits.

And that's not even getting into the racist mess which is "stop and frisk". Punishing kids for walking to and from school with backpacks is all kinds of bullshit.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:22 PM on June 24, 2017 [18 favorites]


When cops run plates would a concealed carry permit automatically pop up, too?

No, because it's an open-carry state, and he was legally entitled to possess and carry the gun he had in the way he had it.
posted by rtha at 2:24 PM on June 24, 2017 [4 favorites]


It means every other black male that lives around there gets that bullshit 50+ times also, and consequential risk of being shot, is what it means.
posted by Artw at 2:29 PM on June 24, 2017 [11 favorites]


No, because it's an open-carry state, and he was legally entitled to possess and carry the gun he had in the way he had it.

Interesting, but he did have a permit that jurors were not allowed to hear about because of a motion by Yanez's defense:
Jurors in Philando Castile case may not hear he had gun permit
posted by jamjam at 2:41 PM on June 24, 2017 [2 favorites]


My husband told me a story last night about riding in a car with a friend of ours who was driving erratically for some reason and got pulled over. He informed the officer that he had a gun in the vehicle and a concealed handgun license.

The officer became instantly more respectful and all but thanks our friend for being a card carrying, gun loving, American. He also did not get a ticket.

Our friend is white, clean cut, drives a pickup. This was in a very small Texas town.

I have no doubt that the situation played out that way only because our friend is white and that only not being black could have spared Philando Castile.
posted by Saminal at 2:48 PM on June 24, 2017 [23 favorites]


As a data point, from Thursday 6/22:

Ivan Moreno/AP: Swift Acquittal for Former Milwaukee Cop Charged in Shooting
A Milwaukee jury needed less than two days of deliberations to acquit a former police officer in the on-duty shooting of a black man last year that sparked two nights of violence on the city's north side.
The former police officer is also black.
posted by ZeusHumms at 2:54 PM on June 24, 2017 [2 favorites]


That's probably why they had to deliberate for two days.
posted by Artw at 2:55 PM on June 24, 2017 [6 favorites]


To be fair, the jurors in the Yanez trial deliberated for 4.5 days.
posted by hippybear at 3:03 PM on June 24, 2017


The video of the little 4 year old girl comforting her mom in the police car broke my heart.

I killed a spider
Not a murderous brown recluse
Nor even a black widow
And if the truth were told this
Was only a small
Sort of papery spider
Who should have run
When I picked up the book
But she didn't
And she scared me
And I smashed her

I don't think
I'm allowed

To kill something

Because I am

Frightened


Allowables
- Nikki Giovanni

posted by triggerfinger at 3:04 PM on June 24, 2017 [39 favorites]


I am a Nice White Lady who looks like her other car is the Magic School Bus, so I get pulled over maaaaaaybe once a year at most and always because I've actually done something to merit it. Once, I turned right at a stop sign that was posted "no turns after 3 PM", got pulled over, and DID NOT HAVE MY LICENSE because I'd lost my wallet a couple of days before and hadn't been able to get a replacement yet. I gave the officer my passport and apologized profusely. He let me off with a warning. I know damn well that an Alternate Universe Me with more melanin would not have had that interaction go half as well.

It is maddening and heartbreaking and I feel like there is virtually nothing I can do about it, as an individual, what will make a damn bit of difference. I can't even convince my conservative relatives that systemic racism is a real thing that exists. At least none of them are cops.
posted by nonasuch at 3:55 PM on June 24, 2017 [4 favorites]


It's not, though. We have countless examples just from the last couple years alone that being black, male, and breathing are sufficient status to you getting shot by a nervous cop.

St. Louis officer mistakenly shoots off-duty cop responding to gunfight

.. Go on.. guess what color the off-duty cop is?
The off-duty cop, who lives nearby, heard the chaos erupt. He grabbed his service weapon and hurried out to help police at the scene, according to the Post-Dispatch.

The 38-year-old officer, an 11-year department veteran, was initially stopped by two uniformed St. Louis cops and ordered to the ground.

But the cops soon recognized the mystery man as one of their own and told him to walk toward them, according to a department incident summary released Thursday.

That's when another officer arrived — and fired at the off-duty cop, striking him in the arm, the report said.
That story doesn't say.... but.. you know, don't you?

White St. Louis police officer shoots off-duty black officer

Yep. you knew.
Two officers "challenged the off-duty officer and ordered him to the ground," the department said. The officer complied and once they recognized him the on-duty officers told him "to stand up and walk toward them."

At about the same time, another officer who had just arrived on the scene saw what was happening and "fearing for his safety and apparently not recognizing the off-duty officer, discharged a shot, striking the off-duty officer in the arm."

fearing for his safety.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 5:30 PM on June 24, 2017 [12 favorites]


Prior to the video the jury was split 6-6 and afterwards it was 10-2 in favor of acquittal. Also key was the evidence showing that it would take 0.28 seconds to pull a gun and shoot from Castille's position (hand holding a potential weapon in his pocket) versus 0.5 seconds for Yanez to respond to that movement.

At point blank range if you're fired upon you're basically already done for: you have to fire first if you want to live. That's the consequence of a society where you must assume everyone is carrying a gun: officers must make life and death decisions in a fraction of a second.


So... that sounds like an argument for the police being allowed to immediately shoot anybody they think has a gun. That's the kind of thing you'd think open carry nuts would be up in arms about, so to speak. But of course they're not worried about it because they're white.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:35 PM on June 24, 2017 [3 favorites]


Regarding the discussion on what Philandro Castile could have done differently and stayed alive, it just occurred to me that there is actually one thing that would have made a difference, and that is NOT OWNING A GUN.

Evidently, the problem was that the gun was in the same glove compartment as licence/registration, as he told the officer. So it's a conumdrum: Reach for the glove compartment and the officer thinks you reach for your gun and shoots. Don't reach for the glove compartment and the officer thinks you're refusing to cooperate and shoots.

But this situation would not have occurred if Castile didn't have a gun with him in the first place.

Of course, it's his right to have a gun, but this freedom comes at a price: namely a significantly higher risk of being shot.

And to be very clear, I'm not saying it's Castile's own fault for being shot. I think the cop is guilty of murder or at least man-slaughter and should have been sent to jail, and I agree that a lot of the blame should go to the way cops are trained. But NOT OWNING A GUN probably would have made a difference here.
posted by sour cream at 11:59 PM on June 24, 2017 [1 favorite]


namely a significantly higher risk of being shot.

Further clarification: I realize that the risk of being shot in the US is already higher if you're black. My point is that it further increases for black people (as for anyone else) who own guns.
posted by sour cream at 12:03 AM on June 25, 2017


.. Go on.. guess what color the off-duty cop is?

Why guess? You just said he was...oh shit, no you didn't. No, that was just how I immediately imagined that situation going down.

Okay, that's beyond eerie and into depressing.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 12:31 AM on June 25, 2017 [2 favorites]


Mod note: A couple deleted; please flag problem comments rather than derail with a meta-discussion of thread/posting etiquette. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:55 AM on June 25, 2017


But this situation would not have occurred if Castile didn't have a gun with him in the first place.

It didn't help Sam DeBois. He's still dead, in his car, at a traffic stop. He didn't have a gun. Keith Lamont was unarmed, too, reading in his car. Not to mention Cameron Massey, who was in the passenger seat of a car and outnumbered by police.

Most of the black men shot by police are unarmed. Castille obeyed NRA protocol when announcing the presence of a gun; the silence of the NRA in this matter is damning evidence of their racism.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:15 AM on June 25, 2017 [40 favorites]


I think people want to speculate about what Philando could have done because people want to feel safe. We're not safe. When black men are shot on sight, we are not safe. Stop speculating. He's dead and we're falling apart over here.
Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.
posted by deadcrow at 4:29 AM on June 25, 2017 [29 favorites]


But this situation would not have occurred if Castile didn't have a gun with him in the first place.

Nah, Levar Jones got shot by a cop for reaching back into his car or truck after being ordered to do so. He didn't have a gun. He survived, thankfully.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:20 AM on June 25, 2017 [2 favorites]


Please consider Dylann Roof,this this fuckin white dude, and recent (white) escaped convicts all of whom have been openly armed and mysteriously apprehended WITHOUT BEING KILLED.

Please stop speculating what Philando Castile should or could have done. It's extremely offensive, because the answer is: nothing. There is literally nothing a Black person can do that saves them from being shot by the cops. Not being unarmed. Not running away from the cops. Not following NRA protocol. Not being 7 years old and sleeping in your own bed at home. Those who think that there is some magical key for Black behaviour when facing the cops are reaffirming the white supremacist belief system that Black behaviour is the problem, rather than police brutality and fear.
posted by TwoStride at 8:07 AM on June 25, 2017 [24 favorites]


> So, what we need to do are develop strategies where cooperative POC and on-the-edge cops can move toward a center where nobody gets killed. Those strategies need to be taught to both cops and POC.

Am I making any sense here? We need methods to diffuse the obvious racism and race panic. How do we create these?


The reason you are not making sense is because you are assuming goodwill on the part of the police. Your mental model of a situation is of a interaction where both sides share a common interest; where everyone really does want to find the proper set of performances for everyone on all sides. This is not the case.

There was no set of actions that Castile could have taken at the moment to keep the police from shooting him. Even if he had complied to authoritarian violence in advance — by not carrying a (legal) gun, for example — Yanez still would have gladly shot him.

We must organize to abolish the police.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:54 AM on June 25, 2017 [2 favorites]


We must organize to abolish the police.

I would suggest rather we abolish the idea that there is a separate standard for police officers and the rest of us, which denies equal protection of the law.

Either EVERYONE gets to claim "The FIRST PRIORITY is coming home safely at night*, and I was in fear for my life." or NO-ONE gets to.

*arguable perhaps if you're sworn to serve and protect, and aware that you may have to make the ultimate sacrifice to fulfill that oath.
posted by mikelieman at 9:03 AM on June 25, 2017 [1 favorite]


But this situation would not have occurred if Castile didn't have a gun with him in the first place.

Yeah no.

Look, I realise the impulse is there to try and find some other, non-racism reason for why cops kill black people. But we need to face the fact that racism is the strongest component here. The police force is rotten to the core. We don't need an entirely different institution/mechanism for keeping the peace; we need ANY such institution or mechanism, because the police sure ain't it.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 9:20 AM on June 25, 2017 [4 favorites]


The lie that black people are allowed to have guns absolutely is a racist lie, as are most lies surrounding gun ownership once you dig into it.
posted by Artw at 9:31 AM on June 25, 2017 [4 favorites]


I did watch the video of the incident but other than that I haven't followed the news on this story too closely because I'm so heartbroken over it. So I'm just learning here about him having been stopped multiple times in his recent past.

Given the way he announced to the officer that he had a gun, I have to assume that he may have had to make similar announcements during his previous stops. And he was allowed to live during those stops, which puts the onus squarely back on the officer in this case.

My dad was a cop, and I am white, so in the last few years, and in part with a lot of help from Metafilter discussions, I have been coming to understand white privilege in a larger way, and challenging my white privilege beliefs.

In the past I would have said that Mr. Castile "should have just..." but it's so beyond clear now that there's not one thing that he could have done "better" or "right". He did the "right" things here, at least by the standards by which I would have been judged during that stop.

For a while I wanted to say that "this is a training issue" or "this is a failure on the part of the department to reject an applicant who was not mentally fit to be an officer". My white privilege wants desperately to find an explanation. Something to point at and say "well, if only..." so that I can still feel like the rules that I was raised with do and have always applied to all citizens and so that I won't have to face how sheltered I've been all my life. It breaks my heart to understand how I have gone to school with so many PoC, lived in the same neighborhood, worked in the same places, and yet have lived in such a completely different reality.
posted by vignettist at 9:42 AM on June 25, 2017 [14 favorites]


For a while I wanted to say that "this is a training issue" or "this is a failure on the part of the department to reject an applicant who was not mentally fit to be an officer".

I used to date a really nice, thoughtful, smart white guy whose dad had been an RCMP superintendent. I remember we were arguing about the RCMP's problems with racism, sexism, and police brutality, and he insisted that they were due to the actions of individual constables (he may have literally used the term "bad apples"). The alternative scenario that I was arguing--that the very selection process and institutional culture of the organization promoted and ensured the racism, sexism and violence--would have meant rethinking his concept of what he'd been raised his whole life to believe was right, true, and noble. It's a mental shift that is difficult for most and impossible for many. And a lot of people who are fully aware it's the truth have a vested interest in keeping it that way.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 10:58 AM on June 25, 2017 [4 favorites]


Keep in mind the saying is a few bad apples spoil the bunch. It is telling how people are using this now to excuse instead of condemn police brutality.
posted by Deoridhe at 11:02 AM on June 25, 2017 [20 favorites]


I always wish reporters who are given the "bad apple" excuse would follow up with "yes, but doesn't that just spoil the entire bunch?"
posted by hippybear at 11:11 AM on June 25, 2017 [7 favorites]


A few bad apples that the other apples organize a smear campaign to protect.
posted by Artw at 11:15 AM on June 25, 2017 [7 favorites]


Castile may have survived if he had just stopped moving. But if that's the action that would have allowed Castile to survive, then that's what the officer should have requested. Instead Yanez requested that he not pull out his firearm, which to someone who isn't pulling out a firearm is going to be confusing, and confused people behave erratically, and police shoot people (especially black people) for behaving erratically.

Even to someone who would argue that this particular officer is blameless, this should be seen as a failure of police training that he made an impossible request.
posted by RobotHero at 12:41 PM on June 25, 2017 [2 favorites]


Technically it's only available to well organized militias, and we know what that's code for, right?
posted by Artw at 5:55 PM on June 25, 2017 [1 favorite]


I thought everyone kept their license and registration on their visor. Overflowing white privilege says it's just more convenient. Now I know there is another reason.

My insurance card lives in my glove compartment because I worry anything clipped to my visor might blow loose if I have the windows down. Sometimes my registration is there, or sometimes it's in my wallet with my license. I have once or twice had to smile sheepishly at at officer and say "I'm sorry, I'm getting all the paperwork, but I may need to rummage for a minute." It's never been a problem, not even when I realized my license was in my pocket only after I dumped out my entire purse onto the passenger seat and had just opened three insurance envelopes before I found the one with the right dates on it. (Yeah, ok, sometimes I'm kind of a mess.) Would you like to play a game of "what's my color?"

That last anecdote was in the town I have all my black friends avoid when I give them directions to my place, even though it means going down one more exit and then doubling back.
posted by Karmakaze at 10:51 AM on June 26, 2017 [3 favorites]


This is a powerful read: This blaming of the black victim stands in the way of change that might prevent more victims of violent policing in the future. Could it be that some Americans would rather black people die than their perceptions of America? Is black death more palatable than accepting the racist reality of slaveholding America, of segregating America, of mass-incarcerating America? Is black death the cost of maintaining the myth of a just and meritorious America?

This is not just the America people perceive. This is the America people seem to love. And they are going to defend their beloved America against all those nasty charges of racism. People seem determined to exonerate the police officer because they are determined to exonerate America.

posted by TwoStride at 6:03 AM on June 27, 2017 [7 favorites]


I have seen a video (from Mic, I think) about how Salt Lake City police got de-escalation (and other?) training and now they haven't had a fatality since 2015. Anyone have any personal experience with or knowledge of this?
posted by emkelley at 11:43 AM on June 27, 2017


I think that article linked by TwoStride really hits on it with this:

To diagnose police officers’ lethal fears as racist, juries and prosecutors would also have to diagnose their own fears of black bodies as racist. That is a tall task. It may even be easier to get a racist cop convicted of murdering a black person than it is to get a racist American to acknowledge his or her own racism. Racist Americans keep justice as far away from black death as possible to keep the racist label as far away from themselves as possible.

That is why even seemingly progressive white people who are comfortable critiquing their country (ie NOT the ultra patriotic types with their "beloved America") have a really hard time with identifying systemic racism. Because to do so is to be forced to acknowledge their own white privilege and their complicity in a racist system, and I think that can be a harder task even than acknowledging their country's systemic racism.

I see this where I live with the horrendous racism towards First Nations/indigenous people, which results in tremendous death and suffering for that population through police brutality, poverty on and off reserve, disproportionate incarceration rates, the thousands of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. And I think the number one problem is getting people to admit the existence of systemic racism that they, as non-First Nations, benefit from.

I also see it with otherwise progressive, feminist men who, when confronted with the realities of daily sexism, are quick to downplay it or their participation in it.

I think wherever one particular segment of the population is subject to this sort of oppression, even otherwise progressive and knowledgeable members of the privileged majority have a mental block about acknowledging their role in perpetuating it.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:53 AM on June 27, 2017 [2 favorites]


That's one of the challenges of a trial before a jury of your peers - racists in a community steeped in pervasive institutional racism are judged by other racists.

I wonder, somewhat idly, if there's an argument for a class action that asks "what action could have prevented the majority of these deaths in $county".

I have never been so glad to not be a lawyer.
posted by mce at 12:35 PM on June 27, 2017




Some people taking that attorney's quote as him being a dumbass, but he also says, "But it also presents a bigger problem that's been a national discussion for the past two years. That is, this perception that a black man is automatically to be feared." So I think Rufus J. Tate Jr. is not exactly saying that shooting an "ordinary black guy" would have been okay.
posted by RobotHero at 3:44 PM on June 27, 2017 [1 favorite]


Well, it's past the 15th of the month so the WaPo doesn't want me to read the story, but I don't accept that police are a separate class of people from "ordinary," especially when off-duty, so I think the sense stands. Of course the attorney isn't going to say "non-cop black people deserve to be shot," but history tells us he doesn't have to. He's a police union lawyer, after all.
posted by rhizome at 4:07 PM on June 27, 2017


rhizome: private browser windows are your friends.
posted by hippybear at 4:14 PM on June 27, 2017


So I think Rufus J. Tate Jr. is not exactly saying that shooting an "ordinary black guy" would have been okay.

He prioritizes that they should have known this man was a "good" black man instead of an "ordinary" black man before the issue that black men are feared. I don't see how this is any different from the "you're one of the good ones" racism which white people pretend isn't racist.
posted by Deoridhe at 4:40 PM on June 27, 2017 [1 favorite]


I got that from here: http://fox2now.com/2017/06/22/off-duty-officer-wounded-by-fellow-cop-in-shootout/

Though they have one transcription problem in what I quoted. Their article says "this perception that a black man is automatically feared" where in the video he says, "this perception that a black man is automatically to be feared." Which completely changes the meaning of what he's saying, I think.
posted by RobotHero at 4:55 PM on June 27, 2017


I don't. The first one is textbook passive voice, while the second is a slightly more prescriptive/imperative variation.
posted by rhizome at 5:00 PM on June 27, 2017 [1 favorite]


Oh? To me they read very differently.

If you say the problem is the perception that a black man is automatically feared, then I read that as the problem is the perception that he's feared. If you have a problem with a perception, it's because it's a false perception, which means black men aren't automatically feared. It reads very much like someone complaining that people are seeing racism where there is none.

But if you say the problem is the perception that a black man is automatically to be feared, that reads to me that the flawed perception is that fearing black men is the sensible thing to do.
posted by RobotHero at 9:23 PM on June 27, 2017


I see what you're saying. I'd say that the first one posits the fear as preordained and the second leaves the fearsome interpretation out there in the ether for each of us to adopt if we choose, but before we get there we have to deal with two questions that apply equally to each: who is perceiving, and who is fearing?
posted by rhizome at 9:45 PM on June 27, 2017


Charlotte Observer - Op Ed - Civilians shouldn’t have to de-escalate police
posted by RobotHero at 10:12 AM on July 4, 2017 [8 favorites]




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