“We want to share this book with people all over the world,” he said.
July 5, 2017 5:34 PM Subscribe
TODAY: United States Files Civil Action To Forfeit Thousands Of Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby [justice.gov]
"In October 2010, an expert on cultural property law retained by Hobby Lobby warned the company that the acquisition of cultural property likely from Iraq, including cuneiform tablets and cylinder seals, carries a risk that such objects may have been looted from archaeological sites in Iraq."
JAN 2016: Can Hobby Lobby Buy The Bible? [The Atlantic]
"These manuscripts provide the best evidence we have for the early wording of the Bible, and the family now owns more than 1,000 of them."
OCT 2015: Exclusive: Feds Investigate Hobby Lobby Boss for Illicit Artifacts [The Daily Beast]
"The tablets were described on their FedEx shipping label as samples of “hand-crafted clay tiles.” This description may have been technically accurate, but the monetary value assigned to them—around $300, we’re told—vastly underestimates their true worth, and, just as important, obscures their identification as the cultural heritage of Iraq."
FEB 2015: D.C. Bible Museum Will Be Immersive Experience, Organizers Say [NPR]
"'Oh, those crafty white conservative evangelicals!' he says. 'They're so savvy. They're so politically cunning.'"
"In October 2010, an expert on cultural property law retained by Hobby Lobby warned the company that the acquisition of cultural property likely from Iraq, including cuneiform tablets and cylinder seals, carries a risk that such objects may have been looted from archaeological sites in Iraq."
JAN 2016: Can Hobby Lobby Buy The Bible? [The Atlantic]
"These manuscripts provide the best evidence we have for the early wording of the Bible, and the family now owns more than 1,000 of them."
OCT 2015: Exclusive: Feds Investigate Hobby Lobby Boss for Illicit Artifacts [The Daily Beast]
"The tablets were described on their FedEx shipping label as samples of “hand-crafted clay tiles.” This description may have been technically accurate, but the monetary value assigned to them—around $300, we’re told—vastly underestimates their true worth, and, just as important, obscures their identification as the cultural heritage of Iraq."
FEB 2015: D.C. Bible Museum Will Be Immersive Experience, Organizers Say [NPR]
"'Oh, those crafty white conservative evangelicals!' he says. 'They're so savvy. They're so politically cunning.'"
Ya know- if Pazuzu is looking for someone to posses in the next few weeks or so, I got a couple of fucking suggestions right here.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:42 PM on July 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:42 PM on July 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
"The tablets were described on their FedEx shipping label as samples of “hand-crafted clay tiles.” This description may have been technically accurate, but the monetary value assigned to them—around $300, we’re told—vastly underestimates their true worth, and, just as important, obscures their identification as the cultural heritage of Iraq."
So not content with stealing from the Iraqis they steal from the USG by not paying duty. Pretty sure Jesus said render unto Caesar.
Also, did nobody point out that tax evasion is how Ness got Capone?
posted by Talez at 5:44 PM on July 5, 2017 [22 favorites]
So not content with stealing from the Iraqis they steal from the USG by not paying duty. Pretty sure Jesus said render unto Caesar.
Also, did nobody point out that tax evasion is how Ness got Capone?
posted by Talez at 5:44 PM on July 5, 2017 [22 favorites]
I hope they got the one that melts your face off, like in Indiana Jones. It couldn't happen to a more deserving buncha fellas.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 5:44 PM on July 5, 2017 [40 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 5:44 PM on July 5, 2017 [40 favorites]
Didn't I read this in a Neal Stephenson book?
posted by JoeZydeco at 5:44 PM on July 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 5:44 PM on July 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
Didn't I read this in a Neal Stephenson book?
No, no, set your sights a bit lower -- Dan Brown.
posted by k5.user at 5:46 PM on July 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
No, no, set your sights a bit lower -- Dan Brown.
posted by k5.user at 5:46 PM on July 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
This is from 2015: Hobby Lobby may very well have given 1.6 million to ISIS and/or Al Queda, in exchange for thousands of looted artifacts.
posted by zarq at 5:46 PM on July 5, 2017 [63 favorites]
The Islamic State, or ISIS, has engaged in the practice as it seized more territory from the Iraqi and Syrian governments and rebel groups, but dramatically scaled their activities: whereas al-Qaeda previously charged an extortion fee to looters, ISIS now controls more than 4,500 archaeological sites and controls the selling process. (In cases of the sites they don’t directly own, they charge looters, who must get a written permit from ISIS, one-fifth of the eventual proceeds of the sale.)
posted by zarq at 5:46 PM on July 5, 2017 [63 favorites]
Move over, Walmart, Hobby Lobby seems to be gunning for a whole new level of corporate atrociousness. Next thing we know Hobby Lobby'll be playing the villain in the next Indiana Jones or Jame Bond movie.
posted by orange swan at 5:50 PM on July 5, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 5:50 PM on July 5, 2017 [16 favorites]
I was confused reading the complaint; is the DoJ alleging this or has Hobby Lobby admitted wrongdoing? It reads like they've admitted something but that the DoJ is still suing them, or something.
posted by dismas at 5:52 PM on July 5, 2017
posted by dismas at 5:52 PM on July 5, 2017
Repulsive. Their worldview and values system are so alien to me. It really is like encountering a Bond villain, as the swan notes.
posted by radicalawyer at 5:52 PM on July 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by radicalawyer at 5:52 PM on July 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I was confused reading the complaint; is the DoJ alleging this or has Hobby Lobby admitted wrongdoing? It reads like they've admitted something but that the DoJ is still suing them, or something.
They've reached the settlement, now the DoJ is asking the court to approve the resolution which in this case is civil forfeiture.
posted by Talez at 5:55 PM on July 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
They've reached the settlement, now the DoJ is asking the court to approve the resolution which in this case is civil forfeiture.
posted by Talez at 5:55 PM on July 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Once again, the weird quirk of civil forfeiture by which the cases are technically US v. [asset] comes through, bringing us The United States of America v. Approximately Four Hundred Fifty (450) Ancient Cuneiform Tablets; and Approximately Three Thousand (3,000) Ancient-Clay Bullae.
posted by Copronymus at 5:58 PM on July 5, 2017 [26 favorites]
posted by Copronymus at 5:58 PM on July 5, 2017 [26 favorites]
Absolutely unconscionable.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 5:59 PM on July 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 5:59 PM on July 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
So the sum total punishment for this looting is forfeiting artifacts (or at least the ones the government knows about) and what is for this guy a trivial amount of money? That's it?
posted by tavella at 6:01 PM on July 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by tavella at 6:01 PM on July 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
No, no, set your sights a bit lower -- Dan Brown.
Nope, definitely Stephenson.
Nope, definitely Stephenson.
"The accounts are fragmentary. Few tablets have been discovered, and these are broken and scattered. It is thought that L. Bob Rife has excavated many intact tablets, but he refuses to release them."posted by JoeZydeco at 6:04 PM on July 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
I'm furious as an archaeologist, because they've provided material support for the complete destruction of invaluable archaeological sites. Those sites are gone forever, and recovering the artifacts doesn't make up for what was lost.
Worse than that, I'm absolutely appalled that they would do business with murderers. It's just unconscionable.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 6:05 PM on July 5, 2017 [75 favorites]
Worse than that, I'm absolutely appalled that they would do business with murderers. It's just unconscionable.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 6:05 PM on July 5, 2017 [75 favorites]
I'm a little puzzled by what on earth the Greens were actually planning on doing with these tablets and seals. Everyone's assuming that it's part of their Bible museum, but I would assume that most of the materials for that would be in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, not Sumerian and Akkadian. Virtually all cuneiform predates the New Testament, and I'm skeptical that there's much coverage of the events of the Old Testament, either. Do they even have a cuneiformist on staff? I've heard there's only a few dozen people who know how to translate it effectively, and I'm guessing almost all would have nothing to do with a project like this.
posted by Copronymus at 6:07 PM on July 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Copronymus at 6:07 PM on July 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
So the sum total punishment for this looting is forfeiting artifacts (or at least the ones the government knows about) and what is for this guy a trivial amount of money? That's it?
posted by tavella at 20:01 on July 5 [+] [!]
Should have been forfeiting artifacts, $3M, and providing birth control to all female employees, that would hit them where it hurts.
posted by Grumpy old geek at 6:10 PM on July 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by tavella at 20:01 on July 5 [+] [!]
Should have been forfeiting artifacts, $3M, and providing birth control to all female employees, that would hit them where it hurts.
posted by Grumpy old geek at 6:10 PM on July 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
I guess I'm sort of confused how it didn't stop with "Hey why are we paying 7 people instead of the one owner" but I suppose stuff like that's why they're settling.
posted by Lykosidae at 6:16 PM on July 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Lykosidae at 6:16 PM on July 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Supreme Court: Corporations are legally people.
Hobby Lobby: Yay!
Supreme Court: Mr. Hobby Lobby can't be forced to violate his religious beliefs.
Hobby Lobby: Hallelujah!
Supreme Court: For financially supporting ISIS, Mr. Hobby Lobby is hereby sentenced to 70 years of hard labor.
Hobby Lobby: _what_
Supreme Court: You don't want to lose, don't keep betting.
posted by delfin at 6:24 PM on July 5, 2017 [76 favorites]
Hobby Lobby: Yay!
Supreme Court: Mr. Hobby Lobby can't be forced to violate his religious beliefs.
Hobby Lobby: Hallelujah!
Supreme Court: For financially supporting ISIS, Mr. Hobby Lobby is hereby sentenced to 70 years of hard labor.
Hobby Lobby: _what_
Supreme Court: You don't want to lose, don't keep betting.
posted by delfin at 6:24 PM on July 5, 2017 [76 favorites]
These manuscripts provide the best evidence we have for the early wording of the Bible, and the family now owns more than 1,000 of them.
Sooo...it's not about faith but about physical evidence? Shouldn't they also forfeit their faith-based protections?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:39 PM on July 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Sooo...it's not about faith but about physical evidence? Shouldn't they also forfeit their faith-based protections?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:39 PM on July 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Antiquities Destruction and Illicit Sales as Sources of ISIS Funding and Propaganda
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:49 PM on July 5, 2017
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:49 PM on July 5, 2017
I can't even imagine what would have happened if Hobby Lobby did this under the Obama DOJ.
posted by schmod at 7:13 PM on July 5, 2017
posted by schmod at 7:13 PM on July 5, 2017
i just got on twitter and Tweeted them a link to the 8th Commandment (Exodus 20:15 in KJV - "Thou shalt not steal").
It was very theraputic.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:16 PM on July 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
It was very theraputic.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:16 PM on July 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
I'm a little puzzled by what on earth the Greens were actually planning on doing with these tablets and seals. Everyone's assuming that it's part of their Bible museum...
It doesn't matter whether they could translate it. They would have THE ORIGINALS, the REAL BIBLE, in a form where nobody could argue with their interpretation of it. It's all part of the idolotry of text game - you get points for having the original item, and more points if you have the best interpretation. And nobody can discredit your interp if they can't see the originals because you restrict access to "the faithful."
I am entirely unsurprised that a "Christian" organization willing to condemn its female employees to stress, physical suffering, and risk of death, would be willing to inflict the same or worse on total strangers on the other side of the planet, in the name of having The Best Toys their religion can acquire.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:22 PM on July 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
It doesn't matter whether they could translate it. They would have THE ORIGINALS, the REAL BIBLE, in a form where nobody could argue with their interpretation of it. It's all part of the idolotry of text game - you get points for having the original item, and more points if you have the best interpretation. And nobody can discredit your interp if they can't see the originals because you restrict access to "the faithful."
I am entirely unsurprised that a "Christian" organization willing to condemn its female employees to stress, physical suffering, and risk of death, would be willing to inflict the same or worse on total strangers on the other side of the planet, in the name of having The Best Toys their religion can acquire.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:22 PM on July 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
Maybe looting irreplaceable antiquities is their hobby. Did you ever think of that?
No- you only think of yourself.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:30 PM on July 5, 2017 [24 favorites]
No- you only think of yourself.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:30 PM on July 5, 2017 [24 favorites]
I'm a little puzzled by what on earth the Greens were actually planning on doing with these tablets and seals.
Biblical Artifact wall tschotschkes, in between the Asian-repressive-oligarchy-made rough-welded biplane coffee table pieces and the Central-American-repressive-oligarchy-made distressed-type inspirational quote plaques near the center of every store.
posted by mwhybark at 7:59 PM on July 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Biblical Artifact wall tschotschkes, in between the Asian-repressive-oligarchy-made rough-welded biplane coffee table pieces and the Central-American-repressive-oligarchy-made distressed-type inspirational quote plaques near the center of every store.
posted by mwhybark at 7:59 PM on July 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm a little puzzled by what on earth the Greens were actually planning on doing with these tablets and seals. Everyone's assuming that it's part of their Bible museum, but I would assume that most of the materials for that would be in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, not Sumerian and Akkadian. Virtually all cuneiform predates the New Testament, and I'm skeptical that there's much coverage of the events of the Old Testament, either. Do they even have a cuneiformist on staff? I've heard there's only a few dozen people who know how to translate it effectively, and I'm guessing almost all would have nothing to do with a project like this.
I mean, it's 2017, of course a rogue cuneiformist is going to enter the story. That's not even top ten craziness this year.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:04 PM on July 5, 2017 [29 favorites]
I mean, it's 2017, of course a rogue cuneiformist is going to enter the story. That's not even top ten craziness this year.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:04 PM on July 5, 2017 [29 favorites]
So this new Bible Museum is essentially built with concrete from the Roman style- made with the blood of ones countrymen. I'm honestly interested in going. But I do wonder if they'll let me stay if I keep talking about how many Americans the purchase of each object killed.
posted by Hactar at 8:26 PM on July 5, 2017
posted by Hactar at 8:26 PM on July 5, 2017
They'll just interpret it to say whatever they want regardless of what is actually printed on it and if anyone says otherwise they'll just claim their religious exercise is being repressed. You know, like they do with the Bible.
posted by ckape at 8:30 PM on July 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by ckape at 8:30 PM on July 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
jason_steakums: "I mean, it's 2017, of course a rogue cuneiformist is going to enter the story. That's not even top ten craziness this year."
That or they'll groom their own with a series of scolarships and employment contracts; Breaking Bad style.
posted by Mitheral at 8:33 PM on July 5, 2017
That or they'll groom their own with a series of scolarships and employment contracts; Breaking Bad style.
posted by Mitheral at 8:33 PM on July 5, 2017
It doesn't matter whether they could translate it. They would have THE ORIGINALS, the REAL BIBLE, in a form where nobody could argue with their interpretation of it. It's all part of the idolotry of text game - you get points for having the original item, and more points if you have the best interpretation. And nobody can discredit your interp if they can't see the originals because you restrict access to "the faithful."
But they're not the originals of anything in the Bible. As far as I know, none of the Bible was originally composed in any cuneiform-script language. I guess maybe some of them might have been composed in places where cuneiform was still used, and possibly there are related texts in Akkadian/Sumerian/Babylonian, but I'm not sure how relevant any of that would be to this ridiculous museum. And what on Earth do they need the seals for?
I skimmed this list, and I guess they spent millions of dollars for materials to prove that . . . Jehoiachin was a real King of Judah (or the equivalent for some other completely non-notable Biblical kings)? It's all kind of baffling to me in a way that it would not remotely be if this were instead about Greek papyrus or Hebrew inscriptions, etc.
posted by Copronymus at 8:47 PM on July 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
But they're not the originals of anything in the Bible. As far as I know, none of the Bible was originally composed in any cuneiform-script language. I guess maybe some of them might have been composed in places where cuneiform was still used, and possibly there are related texts in Akkadian/Sumerian/Babylonian, but I'm not sure how relevant any of that would be to this ridiculous museum. And what on Earth do they need the seals for?
I skimmed this list, and I guess they spent millions of dollars for materials to prove that . . . Jehoiachin was a real King of Judah (or the equivalent for some other completely non-notable Biblical kings)? It's all kind of baffling to me in a way that it would not remotely be if this were instead about Greek papyrus or Hebrew inscriptions, etc.
posted by Copronymus at 8:47 PM on July 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
As a historian and a woman who was already furious about their stance on birth control this is like...a perfect storm of outrage. I even doubted it was real for a minute because it seems designed to piss me off.
posted by mynameisluka at 8:48 PM on July 5, 2017 [26 favorites]
posted by mynameisluka at 8:48 PM on July 5, 2017 [26 favorites]
But they're not the originals of anything in the Bible. As far as I know, none of the Bible was originally composed in any cuneiform-script language. I guess maybe some of them might have been composed in places where cuneiform was still used, and possibly there are related texts in Akkadian/Sumerian/Babylonian, but I'm not sure how relevant any of that would be to this ridiculous museum. And what on Earth do they need the seals for?
The Creation museum uses science-y stuff as context for their bullshit. It's bullshit context, but if you're a kid from a fundie family going to a fundie school on a fundie field trip, it just seems like a museum. They'll probably do the same. "Here we have holy Jewish artifacts, and over here are the primitive scratchings of the pagan."
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:05 PM on July 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
The Creation museum uses science-y stuff as context for their bullshit. It's bullshit context, but if you're a kid from a fundie family going to a fundie school on a fundie field trip, it just seems like a museum. They'll probably do the same. "Here we have holy Jewish artifacts, and over here are the primitive scratchings of the pagan."
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:05 PM on July 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
Supreme Court: Corporations are legally people.
Hobby Lobby: Yay!
Supreme Court: Mr. Hobby Lobby can't be forced to violate his religious beliefs.
Hobby Lobby: Hallelujah!
Supreme Court: For financially supporting ISIS, Mr. Hobby Lobby is hereby sentenced to 70 years of hard labor.
Hobby Lobby: _what_
Supreme Court: You don't want to lose, don't keep betting.
They really do need to take Corporate Personhood down this path. I'm sure the Prison Industrial Complex would love the opportunity of developing a novel way to put a corporation under "House Arrest", so long as they figure out some way to make a profit off of it.
posted by radwolf76 at 9:29 PM on July 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Hobby Lobby: Yay!
Supreme Court: Mr. Hobby Lobby can't be forced to violate his religious beliefs.
Hobby Lobby: Hallelujah!
Supreme Court: For financially supporting ISIS, Mr. Hobby Lobby is hereby sentenced to 70 years of hard labor.
Hobby Lobby: _what_
Supreme Court: You don't want to lose, don't keep betting.
They really do need to take Corporate Personhood down this path. I'm sure the Prison Industrial Complex would love the opportunity of developing a novel way to put a corporation under "House Arrest", so long as they figure out some way to make a profit off of it.
posted by radwolf76 at 9:29 PM on July 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
"This is from 2015: Hobby Lobby may very well have given 1.6 million to ISIS and/or Al Queda, in exchange for thousands of looted artifacts."
How is this not providing material support for terrorists? Look, I'm generally against laws like that which can be overbroad (translating a youtube video should not be a crime, teaching alleged terrorists groups non-violent conflict resolution skills should not be a crime, etc)... But seriously, how are these not criminal charges that result in serious jailtime for everyone involved in this?
posted by el io at 10:01 PM on July 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
How is this not providing material support for terrorists? Look, I'm generally against laws like that which can be overbroad (translating a youtube video should not be a crime, teaching alleged terrorists groups non-violent conflict resolution skills should not be a crime, etc)... But seriously, how are these not criminal charges that result in serious jailtime for everyone involved in this?
posted by el io at 10:01 PM on July 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
If it's any consolation, many of those unsourced, unprovenanced articles are probably fake. Forgery is a huge and growing problem with Middle Eastern artifacts, and it's becoming increasingly clear that there's basically no way to authenticate most inscriptions one they have been removed from their context. Regrettably, IIRC the same defendant has been buying Egyptian papier-mâché (as used in, e.g., burial masks) and dissolving them into their constituent papyri. Mostly you get scraps of receipts and other commercial documents, but every now and then you might get a few words from a Christian text. They're typically not interesting in themselves, but some people go crazy for them and pay huge amounts. For example.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:07 PM on July 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:07 PM on July 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
They really do need to take Corporate Personhood down this path. I'm sure the Prison Industrial Complex would love the opportunity of developing a novel way to put a corporation under "House Arrest", so long as they figure out some way to make a profit off of it.
Or executives in prison. I'm totes ok with executives in prison.
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:27 PM on July 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
Or executives in prison. I'm totes ok with executives in prison.
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:27 PM on July 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
Yeah, I'm not sure how this doesn't run afoul of some serious money laundering/sanctions laws, e.g. OFAC's SDN sanctions list. When I, an American, was working in the UK, I could not deal with clients (all normal, everyday people) - in any capacity - of the financial company I worked for if they so much as lived in certain countries.
But Hobby Lobby can just go and buy priceless ancient artifacts (on the black market? presumably?) with basically no questions asked and when caught, get a slap on the hands. Okay.
posted by triggerfinger at 10:47 PM on July 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
But Hobby Lobby can just go and buy priceless ancient artifacts (on the black market? presumably?) with basically no questions asked and when caught, get a slap on the hands. Okay.
posted by triggerfinger at 10:47 PM on July 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
They BELONG in a MUSEUM!
posted by zardoz at 12:25 AM on July 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 12:25 AM on July 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
I'm absolutely appalled that they would do business with murderers. It's just unconscionable.
There are fundamentalist Christians who are actively working to bring about the end of the world. They really weren't kidding with all those Left Behind books.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:57 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
There are fundamentalist Christians who are actively working to bring about the end of the world. They really weren't kidding with all those Left Behind books.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:57 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Next thing we know Hobby Lobby'll be playing the villain in the next Indiana Jones or Jame Bond movie.
"Ah, Mr. Bond, you made it," the odd man said to 007. Bond had expected a well-dressed man, but instead this fellow was adorned in bric-a-brac and fabric swatches. His pants were spotted with fabric paints, his shirt flocked with silk leaves. An empty frame hung around his neck. His shoes appeared to be styrofoam. "So nice to meet you," he went on. "Mr. Hobson B. Lobbi, at your service."
posted by Servo5678 at 5:03 AM on July 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
"Ah, Mr. Bond, you made it," the odd man said to 007. Bond had expected a well-dressed man, but instead this fellow was adorned in bric-a-brac and fabric swatches. His pants were spotted with fabric paints, his shirt flocked with silk leaves. An empty frame hung around his neck. His shoes appeared to be styrofoam. "So nice to meet you," he went on. "Mr. Hobson B. Lobbi, at your service."
posted by Servo5678 at 5:03 AM on July 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
$3M fine for a company with revenue of $4B. Forfeiture of 5500 artifacts, out of a reported 40,000. Gee, they really had the book thrown at them.
How does this sort of thing not fall under RICO? How is Hobby Lobby allowed to continue to exist at all?
posted by Sys Rq at 5:23 AM on July 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
How does this sort of thing not fall under RICO? How is Hobby Lobby allowed to continue to exist at all?
posted by Sys Rq at 5:23 AM on July 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
I skimmed this list, and I guess they spent millions of dollars for materials to prove that . . . Jehoiachin was a real King of Judah (or the equivalent for some other completely non-notable Biblical kings)?
They're just buying them like MtG booster packs hoping for one that literally says abortion is evil somehow.
posted by fleacircus at 5:37 AM on July 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
They're just buying them like MtG booster packs hoping for one that literally says abortion is evil somehow.
posted by fleacircus at 5:37 AM on July 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I'm not sure how this doesn't run afoul of some serious money laundering/sanctions laws, e.g. OFAC's SDN sanctions list.
They bought from Israelis. I assume that's why it wouldn't violate those rules.
How does this sort of thing not fall under RICO?
IT'S NOT RICO, DAMMIT.
posted by jpe at 5:43 AM on July 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
They bought from Israelis. I assume that's why it wouldn't violate those rules.
How does this sort of thing not fall under RICO?
IT'S NOT RICO, DAMMIT.
posted by jpe at 5:43 AM on July 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Didn't I read this in a Neal Stephenson book?
Can't be. No one's spent four pages describing the proper way to eat Captain Crunch.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 6:08 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Can't be. No one's spent four pages describing the proper way to eat Captain Crunch.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 6:08 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Copronymus, I have a graduate degree in "Bible and the Ancient Near East," and although I spent a lot of time studying Hebrew and Aramaic in school, I also studied Sumerian and Akkadian/Babylonian. It's all kind of lumped together in Bible Studies, because of geographic proximity and various other vectors of influence, and that's probably the reason for their throwing a wide net.
posted by jabah at 6:47 AM on July 6, 2017
posted by jabah at 6:47 AM on July 6, 2017
Don't Fundamentalists know their deadly sins? The greed in taking source materials for the Bible so that they can possess and control them, is staggering.
posted by theora55 at 6:48 AM on July 6, 2017
posted by theora55 at 6:48 AM on July 6, 2017
Stealing archaeological artifacts from Iraq. Do you want Pazuzu? Because this is how you get Pazuzu.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:55 AM on July 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:55 AM on July 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
I skimmed this list, and I guess they spent millions of dollars for materials to prove that . . . Jehoiachin was a real King of Judah (or the equivalent for some other completely non-notable Biblical kings)?
They're just buying them like MtG booster packs hoping for one that literally says abortion is evil somehow.
No, they spent millions of dollars to prove that Jehoiachin was a real King of Judah. or the equivalent.
I am sorry if it hurts the feelings of biblical archaeologists with morals and smarts to say this out loud, but among the Types attracted to their field but not quite in it, this is the most common Type. and some of them ARE in it. Most of this Type don't have Hobby Lobby money or corporate sponsorship, that's all. Classics is much the same, though having to learn real Greek weeds out the very worst of them.
I don't know why it breaks people's hearts and/or brains so easily to find out that people like this do in fact care about material relics for obscure semi-intellectual reasons, but they do. bible dorks are a thing. even when they're not stealing and smuggling, people like this do care for real about stuff like this. not because they hate women, but in addition to hating women: hobby complementarianism, if you will. you can fetishize more than one thing at a time!
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:06 AM on July 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Antiquities Destruction and Illicit Sales as Sources of ISIS Funding and Propaganda
Some twitter wit coined "Wahabi Lobby" and I shall be using that from now on.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:07 AM on July 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
Some twitter wit coined "Wahabi Lobby" and I shall be using that from now on.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:07 AM on July 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
I am sorry if it hurts the feelings of biblical archaeologists with morals and smarts to say this out loud, but among the Types attracted to their field but not quite in it, this is the most common Type.
Can't remember if I read this on the blue or elsewhere, but apparently quite a lot of archaeology work in the Western Hemisphere that was funded by the Mormons was done with the express goal of proving that the Book of Mormon was historically accurate, and that same funding started to dry up when it became obvious that that proof was not forthcoming. There is also Israel Finkelstein, a Middle East archaeologist who came under attack, from both Israelis and fundamentalist Christians, when he asserted that the Davidic/Solomonic kingdom, as described in the Old Testament, wasn't much of a much, and ultimately the product of much later historical revisionism.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:19 AM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Can't remember if I read this on the blue or elsewhere, but apparently quite a lot of archaeology work in the Western Hemisphere that was funded by the Mormons was done with the express goal of proving that the Book of Mormon was historically accurate, and that same funding started to dry up when it became obvious that that proof was not forthcoming. There is also Israel Finkelstein, a Middle East archaeologist who came under attack, from both Israelis and fundamentalist Christians, when he asserted that the Davidic/Solomonic kingdom, as described in the Old Testament, wasn't much of a much, and ultimately the product of much later historical revisionism.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:19 AM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Are we sure they're not just going to sell these "ceramic tiles" next to the ceramic tiles that say "Live Laugh Love"?
posted by asperity at 8:19 AM on July 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by asperity at 8:19 AM on July 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Can't remember if I read this on the blue or elsewhere, but apparently quite a lot of archaeology work in the Western Hemisphere that was funded by the Mormons was done with the express goal of proving that the Book of Mormon was historically accurate, and that same funding started to dry up when it became obvious that that proof was not forthcoming.
But the Mormon genealogy work done with the express intent of facilitating retroactive baptism of your ancestors is actually a very valuable resource for Americanists.
Behind a number of significant historical resources, you will find a Lunatics' Auxiliary that ends up funding the real work. (Okay, not always lunatics. Sometimes they're just cultural fetishists.)
Not that Hobby Lobby quite fits into this category. I hope they got fleeced good.
posted by praemunire at 8:59 AM on July 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
But the Mormon genealogy work done with the express intent of facilitating retroactive baptism of your ancestors is actually a very valuable resource for Americanists.
Behind a number of significant historical resources, you will find a Lunatics' Auxiliary that ends up funding the real work. (Okay, not always lunatics. Sometimes they're just cultural fetishists.)
Not that Hobby Lobby quite fits into this category. I hope they got fleeced good.
posted by praemunire at 8:59 AM on July 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
On a milder scale, the excavation that found Richard III's bones was funded by slightly obsessed Ricardians.
posted by tavella at 10:49 AM on July 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by tavella at 10:49 AM on July 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
They really do need to take Corporate Personhood down this path. I'm sure the Prison Industrial Complex would love the opportunity of developing a novel way to put a corporation under "House Arrest"
A few years ago, I saw - can't remember where, now - an article that discussed how imprisonment and capital punishment would work for corporations. Capital punishment is (relatively) simple: Dissolve the corporation entirely, give away its assets by some some methodology that won't result in the current stakeholders just reforming it under a new name. Possibly they are held in escrow for a while to allow for civil lawsuits, because any corporation that's been doing criminal things has almost certainly been violating other laws, and people should be able to make claims against the remaining resources.
Prison was also a monetary penalty: it involved freezing the stocks and seizing all profits of the company, so there are no dividends to investors or the board. That's "imprisonment" - the company functions; it lives; but it can't grow or change much, and nobody's getting rich off it. The employees still get paid (including the likely-overpaid CEO), but there's no "extra" money to distribute. (Again, those seized assets may be held in escrow for a while, to be paid to the winners of various lawsuits. It's hard to commit crimes without also committing torts; it's just that torts take more time & resources to prosecute.) Of course, this was also likely death for the company - the board isn't likely to stick around and wait 2-5 years for the company to start being profitable.
I don't remember all the details and I wish I could find the article.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:01 AM on July 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
A few years ago, I saw - can't remember where, now - an article that discussed how imprisonment and capital punishment would work for corporations. Capital punishment is (relatively) simple: Dissolve the corporation entirely, give away its assets by some some methodology that won't result in the current stakeholders just reforming it under a new name. Possibly they are held in escrow for a while to allow for civil lawsuits, because any corporation that's been doing criminal things has almost certainly been violating other laws, and people should be able to make claims against the remaining resources.
Prison was also a monetary penalty: it involved freezing the stocks and seizing all profits of the company, so there are no dividends to investors or the board. That's "imprisonment" - the company functions; it lives; but it can't grow or change much, and nobody's getting rich off it. The employees still get paid (including the likely-overpaid CEO), but there's no "extra" money to distribute. (Again, those seized assets may be held in escrow for a while, to be paid to the winners of various lawsuits. It's hard to commit crimes without also committing torts; it's just that torts take more time & resources to prosecute.) Of course, this was also likely death for the company - the board isn't likely to stick around and wait 2-5 years for the company to start being profitable.
I don't remember all the details and I wish I could find the article.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:01 AM on July 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
I imagine Bob Ross overturning cash registers and end caps scribbling"not happy little accidents" in yellow ochre.
posted by clavdivs at 11:42 AM on July 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 11:42 AM on July 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
... Classics is much the same, though having to learn real Greek weeds out the very worst of them.
Every so often I pass a gun fetishist's car with a bumper sticker that says μολὼν λαβέ. It never ceases to make me pause and think: here is surely a man who, when young, would have rewarded any sign of interest in classical Greece, among his peer group, with a severe beating. And yet, while I was poring over the aorist and so forth, Frank Miller was drawing a bunch of very sweaty men that would change that forever.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:47 AM on July 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Every so often I pass a gun fetishist's car with a bumper sticker that says μολὼν λαβέ. It never ceases to make me pause and think: here is surely a man who, when young, would have rewarded any sign of interest in classical Greece, among his peer group, with a severe beating. And yet, while I was poring over the aorist and so forth, Frank Miller was drawing a bunch of very sweaty men that would change that forever.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:47 AM on July 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
I am freaking out a little tiny bit.
You see, just last week (I could provide screenshot of amazon kindle order) I re-read Snow Crash after for the first time since 1999. I loved how some prescient some parts are, and how quaint others look with hindsight.But the whole Sumerian tablets and L. Bob Rife part was just too insane.
Is it common for Christian Billionaires to acquire and secrete ancient cuneiform tablets?
Is it only Hobby Lobby and Neal Stephenson happened to know about David Green's collection and based L. Bob Rife on him?
Did David Green read Snow Crash and think it was true?
Is this just a coincidence?
Should I start being wary of white noise and screen snow?
posted by Dr. Curare at 1:54 PM on July 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
You see, just last week (I could provide screenshot of amazon kindle order) I re-read Snow Crash after for the first time since 1999. I loved how some prescient some parts are, and how quaint others look with hindsight.But the whole Sumerian tablets and L. Bob Rife part was just too insane.
Is it common for Christian Billionaires to acquire and secrete ancient cuneiform tablets?
Is it only Hobby Lobby and Neal Stephenson happened to know about David Green's collection and based L. Bob Rife on him?
Did David Green read Snow Crash and think it was true?
Is this just a coincidence?
Should I start being wary of white noise and screen snow?
posted by Dr. Curare at 1:54 PM on July 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Dissolve the corporation entirely,
It's called bankruptcy. It's a thing. See, eg, Arthur Anderson.
posted by jpe at 3:33 PM on July 6, 2017
It's called bankruptcy. It's a thing. See, eg, Arthur Anderson.
posted by jpe at 3:33 PM on July 6, 2017
It's called bankruptcy. It's a thing. See, eg, Arthur Anderson.
Uh, chief, AA never declared bankruptcy. Arthur Anderson voluntarily surrendered its corporate accountancy licenses as part of a desperate bid to save the hides of the upper brass. This basically stopped the firm from trading and they were orderly dissolved eventually absorbed by other companies.
posted by Talez at 4:06 PM on July 6, 2017
Uh, chief, AA never declared bankruptcy. Arthur Anderson voluntarily surrendered its corporate accountancy licenses as part of a desperate bid to save the hides of the upper brass. This basically stopped the firm from trading and they were orderly dissolved eventually absorbed by other companies.
posted by Talez at 4:06 PM on July 6, 2017
Should I start being wary of white noise and screen snow?
I can't recall the last time I even saw screen snow. Ever since television switched to digital-only transmissions, it's only been in period pieces depicting older TV sets or the HBO series intros.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 4:20 PM on July 6, 2017
I can't recall the last time I even saw screen snow. Ever since television switched to digital-only transmissions, it's only been in period pieces depicting older TV sets or the HBO series intros.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 4:20 PM on July 6, 2017
Screen snow is a feature of analog TV. There basically hasn't been any natural TV snow in the US since the ATSC switchover in 2009.
posted by rhizome at 4:49 PM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 4:49 PM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
The foster kitten livestreams I watch on YouTube throw simulated video snow on network errors, but that may be because I use the gaming flavored subsite of YouTube to watch them.
posted by radwolf76 at 7:19 PM on July 6, 2017
posted by radwolf76 at 7:19 PM on July 6, 2017
I don't think I've ever actually seen a computer snow crash as described in Snow Crash.
posted by ckape at 12:45 AM on July 7, 2017
posted by ckape at 12:45 AM on July 7, 2017
Hobby Lobby's Black-Market Buys Did Real Damage (NYTimes).
posted by gudrun at 3:47 PM on July 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by gudrun at 3:47 PM on July 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Hobby lobby’s parallel universe of antiquity studies:
Hobby Lobby’s buying power is setting ancient historical studies on a new axis.posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:41 PM on July 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
The Museum of the Bible has some 40,000 artifacts, making it one of the world’s largest private collections of Biblical artifacts and texts. To put that in perspective, the Harvard Semitic Museum, a leading research institution for ancient Near Eastern studies, has about the same number. But it’s not just size that matters. The Museum of the Bible has acquired showstoppers including the Codex Climaci Rescriptus and important pieces of the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Harvard Semitic Museum built its collection over some 70 years. The Museum of the Bible amassed its collection in 7 years...
The Museum of the Bible’s Scholars Initiative invites academics to research and write about those extraordinary artifacts in its collection. As Baden and Moss have pointed out, however, before undertaking the research scholars are carefully screened. They must sign a non-disclosure agreement. Researchers who have refused to join the Scholars Initiative have been denied access to the collection. Researchers who did join have found themselves embroiled in controversy for appearing to toe the party line for Hobby Lobby.
It’s easy to conclude that squeamish academics should simply stay away. Nobody is forcing anyone to collaborate with the Museum. But to say that is to ignore the underlying problem of turning cultural objects that belong to “all people” into private interests.
The Museum of the Bible amassed its collection in 7 years...
There is absolutely no way they got that much stuff in that short a period of time without breaking a lot of laws
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:44 PM on July 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
There is absolutely no way they got that much stuff in that short a period of time without breaking a lot of laws
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:44 PM on July 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
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Amirite?
posted by andrewesque at 5:40 PM on July 5, 2017 [29 favorites]