Conversations with people that hate me
July 31, 2017 1:48 PM Subscribe
"Hi. Is this Josh?"
"Yeah, it's Josh."
"Sooo. . Back in January, you wrote: You are the most pathetic human being I have ever seen on the internet in my entire life. . . . Josh, what inspired you to write that message?"
Dylan Marron* (previously) has a new series: Conversations With People That Hate Me, where he tries to get to know some of the people that have left him hateful messages.
"I wanted to use this series not to shut down the people that disagree with me, but to actually talk with them." Episode 1 is out now, the facebrook preview has a link to get the podcast in iTunes, or you can listen/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
*aka Carlos from Nightvale. But after his Every Single Word project, viral DAPL water commercial, and Sitting in Bathrooms with Trans People, I think maybe he's earned his own name.
"Yeah, it's Josh."
"Sooo. . Back in January, you wrote: You are the most pathetic human being I have ever seen on the internet in my entire life. . . . Josh, what inspired you to write that message?"
Dylan Marron* (previously) has a new series: Conversations With People That Hate Me, where he tries to get to know some of the people that have left him hateful messages.
"I wanted to use this series not to shut down the people that disagree with me, but to actually talk with them." Episode 1 is out now, the facebrook preview has a link to get the podcast in iTunes, or you can listen/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
*aka Carlos from Nightvale. But after his Every Single Word project, viral DAPL water commercial, and Sitting in Bathrooms with Trans People, I think maybe he's earned his own name.
Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back was not an instruction manual.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:11 PM on July 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Sangermaine at 2:11 PM on July 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
"And remember, there is a human on the other side of the screen."
posted by Coventry at 2:26 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Coventry at 2:26 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Dylan recently provided an excellent example of how to respond to being criticized when you thought you were doing something good. (Here's the Shutting Down Bullsh*t about Autism 2 video mentioned in the post.)
posted by Lexica at 2:31 PM on July 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Lexica at 2:31 PM on July 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
This is fascinating. I have sometimes had an urge to interview people who do rude things in public. One time when my kids were, oh, 1, 4, and 7, I took them grocery shopping, and got a space very near the front of the lot--like the second-closest space or something. When we came out, with a cart-and-a-half of grocery bags, a woman in a big SUV stopped in the aisle and put her blinker on to indicate she was waiting for my spot. Getting three kids into the car, buckled into car seats and booster seats, and also loading a great many groceries into the back is a very time-consuming process, and after about a minute, if that, this woman started beeping at me, a quick little beep every ten seconds or so, to try to get me to hurry up.
That would have been pretty rude in any case--she decided to sit there and wait for a woman with all those kids and paper sacks, after all--but the oddest thing was that there was an empty space two spaces down. As in, my car, next car, empty space.
I very much wanted to go over and knock on her window and ask her what her thought process was. Why sit and wait for me, rather than just drive 10 more feet to the empty spot? She could have parked and been halfway through her shopping in the time she spent waiting for my spot. I wasn't frustrated or angry at her, but I was bemused by her behavior and would have liked to understand it.
This isn't on a par with what Dylan Marron is doing, but I think I understand the impulse.
posted by Orlop at 2:32 PM on July 31, 2017 [45 favorites]
That would have been pretty rude in any case--she decided to sit there and wait for a woman with all those kids and paper sacks, after all--but the oddest thing was that there was an empty space two spaces down. As in, my car, next car, empty space.
I very much wanted to go over and knock on her window and ask her what her thought process was. Why sit and wait for me, rather than just drive 10 more feet to the empty spot? She could have parked and been halfway through her shopping in the time she spent waiting for my spot. I wasn't frustrated or angry at her, but I was bemused by her behavior and would have liked to understand it.
This isn't on a par with what Dylan Marron is doing, but I think I understand the impulse.
posted by Orlop at 2:32 PM on July 31, 2017 [45 favorites]
(Definitely not to be confused with Dylan Moran.)
posted by tobascodagama at 2:55 PM on July 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 2:55 PM on July 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
Trans people are, as a class, the most patient humans I've ever known to exist.
Is he trans? I can't find that anywhere.
posted by AFABulous at 3:03 PM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
Is he trans? I can't find that anywhere.
posted by AFABulous at 3:03 PM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's amazing what people are willing to say on facebook linked to their real-name profiles.
posted by Pyry at 3:06 PM on July 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Pyry at 3:06 PM on July 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I remember when lots of news sites switched to requiring Facebook logins in order to comment, thinking it would reduce the awfulness, and it has not.
posted by AFABulous at 3:14 PM on July 31, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 3:14 PM on July 31, 2017 [16 favorites]
Is he trans? I can't find that anywhere.
I don't think so, but I read that comment more as a general statement, probably related to the "Sitting in Bathrooms with Trans People" project rather than the new "Conversations with People that Hate Me" project.
posted by tobascodagama at 3:16 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't think so, but I read that comment more as a general statement, probably related to the "Sitting in Bathrooms with Trans People" project rather than the new "Conversations with People that Hate Me" project.
posted by tobascodagama at 3:16 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
I am pre-emptively angry about the number of people who will become aware of this show and respond "See? If only marginalized people would just sit and LISTEN to the people spewing vitriol and violence in their direction, the world would be a better place." If there are folks like Dylan who want to do that, great! I'm not mad at him, because he's not responsible for other people being assholes. But the number of people who want to process their anger / anxiety / thoughts about gender with me (a trans person) is exhausting, and I'm just not interested.
posted by zebra at 3:18 PM on July 31, 2017 [53 favorites]
posted by zebra at 3:18 PM on July 31, 2017 [53 favorites]
I agree with you, zebra. I just went through that whole "if you'd just be nicer" conversation on Facebook and I'm just done. Maybe it's different for cis gay white men, maybe they don't have to have that conversation at least once a week, so it's easier to have reasonable conversations with shitty people.
posted by AFABulous at 4:00 PM on July 31, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 4:00 PM on July 31, 2017 [7 favorites]
Maybe what straight white christian guys who feel empowered to give everyone else advice need is someone to give them unrequested advice on love, relationships, how they should respond to a traffic stop, or any other front in their lives. Always compare them to the body of 'The Rock' and the business acumen of ... feh... Trump. And if they aren't on top, just act as if they should be and your advice was a favor.
posted by Nanukthedog at 4:39 PM on July 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Nanukthedog at 4:39 PM on July 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
Maybe it's different for cis gay white men, maybe they don't have to have that conversation at least once a week, so it's easier to have reasonable conversations with shitty people.
Marron's Latinx and an immigrant. Not that there isn't some truth to this as it regards people generally, that more privileged people have room for more patience; I think in Marron's case, a lot of how he's able to do this is by making it all performance art. This is absolutely someone in an exceptional position doing what he can do only because of that position, even if it's not whiteness giving him access to that. At least in his past work, though, he seems to have been pretty honest about that; I don't really think this is meant to be a model for what everybody should do, but him doing it because he can and it's informative to see what happens when someone does it.
I'm interested to see what comes of this, in that very specific performance art context, but definitely not as a model for what anybody else should be doing with their time.
posted by Sequence at 6:02 PM on July 31, 2017 [11 favorites]
Marron's Latinx and an immigrant. Not that there isn't some truth to this as it regards people generally, that more privileged people have room for more patience; I think in Marron's case, a lot of how he's able to do this is by making it all performance art. This is absolutely someone in an exceptional position doing what he can do only because of that position, even if it's not whiteness giving him access to that. At least in his past work, though, he seems to have been pretty honest about that; I don't really think this is meant to be a model for what everybody should do, but him doing it because he can and it's informative to see what happens when someone does it.
I'm interested to see what comes of this, in that very specific performance art context, but definitely not as a model for what anybody else should be doing with their time.
posted by Sequence at 6:02 PM on July 31, 2017 [11 favorites]
Maybe it's different for cis gay white men, maybe they don't have to have that conversation at least once a week, so it's easier to have reasonable conversations with shitty people.
Cis gay dude here and I think there's something to this. When I was a teenager and just beginning to come out, every internet comment board would at some point be fully awash in that late 90s/early 00s species of "being gay is obviously a disease/sick/wrong/gross, why should I have to tolerate them in public spaces" sewage. That obviously messes with your head and I got super burned out on engaging with it. I still have really mixed feelings about the "patiently listening/guiding" schtick to be honest, but I do find myself doing a bit more of it these days with people who are saying stuff that is bad and wrong, and probably that's partly because the threats to people who share my specific identity have calmed down a little.
posted by en forme de poire at 9:25 PM on July 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
Cis gay dude here and I think there's something to this. When I was a teenager and just beginning to come out, every internet comment board would at some point be fully awash in that late 90s/early 00s species of "being gay is obviously a disease/sick/wrong/gross, why should I have to tolerate them in public spaces" sewage. That obviously messes with your head and I got super burned out on engaging with it. I still have really mixed feelings about the "patiently listening/guiding" schtick to be honest, but I do find myself doing a bit more of it these days with people who are saying stuff that is bad and wrong, and probably that's partly because the threats to people who share my specific identity have calmed down a little.
posted by en forme de poire at 9:25 PM on July 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
This is awesome.
Also, I spent about 3 weeks taking this posture online after Trump's election, mostly with family members ( because why on earth would I be Facebook friends with random people advocating for the expulsion of brown people for the crime of being brown?).
"Oh that's interesting that you think Obama is a Muslim socialist because here's what he's done for the Christian 'majority' and Wall Street, tell me more about your conclusion..."
These people are not interested in subtlety or reasoned debate. They just keep digging and don't care about how deep they get. Someone out there is telling them their gut feeling is right and that's enough to excuse any logical disconnect that emerges from an intelligent person engaging them.
In the end, being a smart, open-minded person, with a heart full of compassion has to be its own reward. I'm deeply embedded in a community of similarly enlightened people and not being able to engage the people who've decided to go down with the USS American Democracy is something I can live with.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 9:33 PM on July 31, 2017 [16 favorites]
Also, I spent about 3 weeks taking this posture online after Trump's election, mostly with family members ( because why on earth would I be Facebook friends with random people advocating for the expulsion of brown people for the crime of being brown?).
"Oh that's interesting that you think Obama is a Muslim socialist because here's what he's done for the Christian 'majority' and Wall Street, tell me more about your conclusion..."
These people are not interested in subtlety or reasoned debate. They just keep digging and don't care about how deep they get. Someone out there is telling them their gut feeling is right and that's enough to excuse any logical disconnect that emerges from an intelligent person engaging them.
In the end, being a smart, open-minded person, with a heart full of compassion has to be its own reward. I'm deeply embedded in a community of similarly enlightened people and not being able to engage the people who've decided to go down with the USS American Democracy is something I can live with.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 9:33 PM on July 31, 2017 [16 favorites]
I listened to it. I think the number one thing I took out of it was that bigots can't hold up the bigotry when the target of their lack of affection is willing to talk to them politely about what's going on. But then again, I've heard of that before.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:17 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:17 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think a full 25% of Americans should be considered a botnet at this point.
posted by benzenedream at 12:05 AM on August 1, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 12:05 AM on August 1, 2017 [20 favorites]
jenfullmoon, you're buying into the "if you/we were just nicer" myth, and I agree with odinsdream that the bigot is just being polite because they're put on the spot. They haven't changed their mind; they're just too cowardly to repeat their words to a live human being.
After I came out, I kept hearing "just be patient" in reference to my parents. After TWO YEARS we're still in a kind of detente. If I don't bring up anything related to "transgenderism" [sic] then they won't be dismissive or rude about it. All this politeness on my part didn't win me acceptance, all I've gotten is mere tolerance. Better than spittle-flecked invective, I guess? Because it's my family, I've made my peace that this is the best I can hope for, but god have mercy on other bigots that set their sights on me.
posted by AFABulous at 7:34 AM on August 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
After I came out, I kept hearing "just be patient" in reference to my parents. After TWO YEARS we're still in a kind of detente. If I don't bring up anything related to "transgenderism" [sic] then they won't be dismissive or rude about it. All this politeness on my part didn't win me acceptance, all I've gotten is mere tolerance. Better than spittle-flecked invective, I guess? Because it's my family, I've made my peace that this is the best I can hope for, but god have mercy on other bigots that set their sights on me.
posted by AFABulous at 7:34 AM on August 1, 2017 [9 favorites]
Nah, I'd agree with that. Beats me if the dude would sustain his warm feelings after the phone call or not. I was mostly just indicating that there's a certain wussout factor about calling someone shitty names on the phone vs. on the Internet.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:37 AM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:37 AM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
That's kind of what I fear about this project, that it would further normalize
I totally hear what you're saying -- but let's be careful about putting blame where it belongs. Dylan is not the problem; this podcast is not the problem. He gets to respond to the hate inflicted upon him in whatever manner makes sense for him. If creating this project is what he wants or needs to do, great! I hope he enjoys it, or makes lots of money from it (ha ha), or that it scratches whatever itch necessary.
The problem is with other people who selectively cherry-pick evidence that already fits their world view. People who think more dialogue is the answer are going to feel that way regardless of whether this podcast exists or doesn't.
posted by zebra at 7:50 AM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
I totally hear what you're saying -- but let's be careful about putting blame where it belongs. Dylan is not the problem; this podcast is not the problem. He gets to respond to the hate inflicted upon him in whatever manner makes sense for him. If creating this project is what he wants or needs to do, great! I hope he enjoys it, or makes lots of money from it (ha ha), or that it scratches whatever itch necessary.
The problem is with other people who selectively cherry-pick evidence that already fits their world view. People who think more dialogue is the answer are going to feel that way regardless of whether this podcast exists or doesn't.
posted by zebra at 7:50 AM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
To my parent's credit, when I was bullied in school, they refused the school's suggestion that he and I sit in a room and work it out.
posted by AFABulous at 7:51 AM on August 1, 2017
posted by AFABulous at 7:51 AM on August 1, 2017
OP's link only leads to iTunes, so here's the podcast's actual website, which has many more subscription options (e.g. RSS).
posted by saizai at 8:34 AM on August 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by saizai at 8:34 AM on August 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
re: trans people are so patient
it's worth noting that when i'm patient with cis people, it's not because i'm some super wise gender jedi but because i'm punished if i behave otherwise. if you wanna survive as a trans, youd better tell a good story. i mean literally, to access healthcare i had to tell the doc how i played with dolls when i was 7, yada yada
posted by yaymukund at 1:44 PM on August 1, 2017 [19 favorites]
it's worth noting that when i'm patient with cis people, it's not because i'm some super wise gender jedi but because i'm punished if i behave otherwise. if you wanna survive as a trans, youd better tell a good story. i mean literally, to access healthcare i had to tell the doc how i played with dolls when i was 7, yada yada
posted by yaymukund at 1:44 PM on August 1, 2017 [19 favorites]
The thing that's annoying about this is that sure, you sit someone down and have a calm rational discussion face to face with the object of their bigotry (no mean feat in and of itself) sure you can get someone to "tolerate" that person who courageously stepped forward to face them, but we need CIs Christian heterosexual white people to do more than "tolerate" the "good ones" they know in their personal lives that are different than them. We need to make them understand that denying the civil rights of the gays, the transgenders, the brown people is a direct attack on the "good ones" they tolerate in their day to day lives.
My Trump voting parents were genuinely shocked that we accused them of racism and homophobia when they so obviously love their south Asian daughter in law, their Mexican son in law, my closeted gay uncle, and their mixed race grand children, and they would certainly not spew hatred directly at them, but they spew a shit ton of support publicly for the policies that the Billionaire White Guy Party puts forth that would suppress these individuals they believe they love and support. There's a huge and meaningful disconnect that exists among republicans and that needs to be thrown in their face at every opportunity.
It's great to confront these people with the human face of those they disparage, but I'm afraid it's not enough to break through the insanity of what they are supporting. My parents are able to continue to support this fascist regime despite the fact that it's cost them a relationship with literally all of their grandchildren. I have no idea how to rectify that.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 11:11 PM on August 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
My Trump voting parents were genuinely shocked that we accused them of racism and homophobia when they so obviously love their south Asian daughter in law, their Mexican son in law, my closeted gay uncle, and their mixed race grand children, and they would certainly not spew hatred directly at them, but they spew a shit ton of support publicly for the policies that the Billionaire White Guy Party puts forth that would suppress these individuals they believe they love and support. There's a huge and meaningful disconnect that exists among republicans and that needs to be thrown in their face at every opportunity.
It's great to confront these people with the human face of those they disparage, but I'm afraid it's not enough to break through the insanity of what they are supporting. My parents are able to continue to support this fascist regime despite the fact that it's cost them a relationship with literally all of their grandchildren. I have no idea how to rectify that.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 11:11 PM on August 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Dylan Marron, who I'd never heard of before, sounds like a fantastic and thoughtful artist and a really neat person. I'm glad to know about his work.
Halfway through the first episode, though, this feels a lot like arguing philosophy with bedbugs. I've no objection if it makes people happy, but life's too short to volunteer my own time to listening to it.
posted by eotvos at 8:55 AM on August 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Halfway through the first episode, though, this feels a lot like arguing philosophy with bedbugs. I've no objection if it makes people happy, but life's too short to volunteer my own time to listening to it.
posted by eotvos at 8:55 AM on August 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Why the weird confrontational tone, floam?
Yes, in order to access therapy, hormones and surgery you need to satisfy the professionals and "prove" that you're "actually" trans. This often means telling them what they want to hear, that you were sure you were the "opposite" gender since you were a young child. Most professionals follow the WPATH standards of care. You can google that yourself.
yaymukund wasn't talking about going to the ER for a broken bone, although it's very common for one's trans status to be brought up during treatment irrelevant to one's gender.
posted by AFABulous at 8:05 AM on August 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yes, in order to access therapy, hormones and surgery you need to satisfy the professionals and "prove" that you're "actually" trans. This often means telling them what they want to hear, that you were sure you were the "opposite" gender since you were a young child. Most professionals follow the WPATH standards of care. You can google that yourself.
yaymukund wasn't talking about going to the ER for a broken bone, although it's very common for one's trans status to be brought up during treatment irrelevant to one's gender.
posted by AFABulous at 8:05 AM on August 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
I've linked to this before on mefi, but I recommend Dean Spade's Resisting Medicine, Re/modeling Gender (pdf) if you want to read more:
“How do you know you want rhinoplasty, a nose job?” he inquires, fixing me with a penetrating stare.
“Because,” I reply, suddenly unable to raise my eyes above his brown wingtips, “I’ve always felt like a small-nosed woman trapped in a large-nosed body.”
“And how long have you felt this way?” He leans forward, sounding as if he knows the answer and needs only to hear the words.
“Oh, since I was five or six, doctor, practically all my life.”
“Then you have rhino-identity disorder,” the shoetops state flatly. My body sags in relief. “But first,” he goes on, “we want you to get letters from two psychiatrists and live as a small-nosed woman for three years . . . just to be sure.”
posted by yaymukund at 2:05 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
“How do you know you want rhinoplasty, a nose job?” he inquires, fixing me with a penetrating stare.
“Because,” I reply, suddenly unable to raise my eyes above his brown wingtips, “I’ve always felt like a small-nosed woman trapped in a large-nosed body.”
“And how long have you felt this way?” He leans forward, sounding as if he knows the answer and needs only to hear the words.
“Oh, since I was five or six, doctor, practically all my life.”
“Then you have rhino-identity disorder,” the shoetops state flatly. My body sags in relief. “But first,” he goes on, “we want you to get letters from two psychiatrists and live as a small-nosed woman for three years . . . just to be sure.”
posted by yaymukund at 2:05 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
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posted by FirstMateKate at 1:52 PM on July 31, 2017 [3 favorites]