Mountains of Mordor, Pyroclastic Flows of Valyria

August 2, 2017 11:20 AM

Geologist and science fiction writer Alex Acks has some problems with the geology of the mountains of Middle Earth, but less of an issue about Tatooine-like desert worlds, and also gleans insights on what the map of Panem of the Hunger Games tells us about global warming. Meanwhile, geologist Miles Traer has exhaustively developed the geography of Game of Thrones, including a fascinating description of geologic causes of the the Doom of Valyria. If you aren't a geologist but want to build a world, you can follow geologic rules when building your own worlds or simulate your own plate tectonics and create a planet from scratch.
posted by blahblahblah (37 comments total)

Scientifically accurate geology was also a feature in the MMORPG in Neal Stephenson's REAMDE.
posted by Bruce H. at 11:33 AM on August 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

Love it.

Earthsea next, please.

Not that I'm hoping for either a takedown or stamp of approval. I just want to read about it.
posted by Caxton1476 at 11:47 AM on August 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

Scientifically accurate geology

You need a geologer for that, not a geologist
posted by thelonius at 11:54 AM on August 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

My day off is tomorrow, so this is well timed. I now have my morning coffee and reading time all planned out.
posted by Fizz at 11:56 AM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

New worldbuilding goal: Create the appearance of geographic incoherence, but provide a plausible, detailed in-world explanation for every anomaly.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 12:01 PM on August 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

I have a similar problem with the maps created by Freeciv. I sometimes idly think about what it would take to create a geologically plausible random map builder. Has that been done?
posted by clawsoon at 12:03 PM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Nevermind, I just saw the last link. Neat!
posted by clawsoon at 12:08 PM on August 2, 2017

New worldbuilding goal: Create the appearance of geographic incoherence, but provide a plausible, detailed in-world explanation for every anomaly.

"A wizard did it."

This is something that's bugged me in video games forever (Dwarf Fortress, I'm looking at you). That simulator is totally awesome and I will be using it for various tabletop RPGs from here on out! Thank you!
posted by majuju at 12:27 PM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

I mean, if we're going to go nerdy, Arda (i.e., home of Middle-earth) was not the product of geological processes. It was directly created through the Ainulindalë. The timeline is measured in tens of thousands of years, not billions. Given that it was created by will, there's no reason to expect the geography to be "realistic."
posted by Chrysostom at 12:33 PM on August 2, 2017 [11 favorites]

Perhaps the surveyors in Middle Earth weren't very good, and that explains the maps.
posted by clawsoon at 12:35 PM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Yeah, that's the problem I have with these kind of things: the answer for most of them is "because literally magic". Middle Earth was sung into being by divine entities, who then spent thousands of years further fucking with it. It hasn't been specifically stated what the Doom of Valyria was, but it's strongly hinted to be magical in nature due to the Valyrians heavy use of magic.

It reminds me of that attempt to explain the strange long seasons of "A Song of Ice and Fire" world by positing a multi-star system. Like dude, it's magic.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:37 PM on August 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

Also, try donjon.bin.sh's fractal world builder. Realistic? Probably not, but it does a good job of giving you something to start with, if you're into the whole world-building thing.
posted by eclectist at 12:41 PM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Sangermaine: Middle Earth was sung into being by divine entities, who then spent thousands of years further fucking with it.

Or... that's what its chroniclers believed, anyway. But are we sure we can trust them as properly scientific observers? Look at the things we believed about our earth until not that long ago.
posted by clawsoon at 12:43 PM on August 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

I'll take this opportunity to shamelessly promote my blog Dragons Abound where I'm exploring procedural generation and display of fantasy maps. World generation is a part of that of course, although my interest is more how you generate plausible results without having to model plate tectonics, etc.
posted by srt19170 at 12:46 PM on August 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

If we assume the map of Middle Earth is pretty schematic and inaccurate, I reckon it's possible to see one long slightly wavy mountain range which is bifurcated at the southern end - not to form a perfect right-angled shape, but you know, medieval level cartography.
posted by Segundus at 12:47 PM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Or... that's what its chroniclers believed, anyway.

To be fair, some of those chroniclers actually hung out with the divine entities in question and were around to watch them do a fair bit of re-shaping of the original design, including the destruction of Beleriand and of course the whole thing where a flat world was turned round at one point.

So, you know, there's always going to be some distortion and embellishment to compensate for, but still.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:51 PM on August 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

srt1970, could you please not self-link? It is considered very rude here on Metafilter.

Oh, and you guys should totally check out this 100% geologically accurate fantasy map generator that a close friend of mine made:
https://muffinkitten.itch.io/dicemap
posted by Balna Watya at 12:55 PM on August 2, 2017

I have a similar problem with the maps created by Freeciv. I sometimes idly think about what it would take to create a geologically plausible random map builder. Has that been done

Dwarf Fortress does a reasonable job, down to rain shadows behind mountain ranges. And if it's not good enough Tarn will get around to it eventually.
posted by nathan_teske at 12:57 PM on August 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

srt1970, could you please not self-link? It is considered very rude here on Metafilter.

Is it, even in comments? Anyway, it would make a great Metafilter Projects self-link.
posted by clawsoon at 1:13 PM on August 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

srt1970, could you please not self-link? It is considered very rude here on Metafilter.

Self-links in posts are cause for the banhammer, but a relevant self-link in a comment inside the thread is no violation at all, and is often welcome.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:15 PM on August 2, 2017 [21 favorites]

Balna Watya, I've had a look at

http://www.metafilter.com/faq.mefi#74

and srt1970's reference to his blog appears within the guidelines.
posted by Major Clanger at 1:17 PM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Is this where I admit that I used SimEarth to create a planetary map for a D&D campaign?
posted by ob1quixote at 1:24 PM on August 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

Can I mention that I just heard about this cool blog called Here Dragons Abound by MeFi's own srt1970? It seems really relevant.

To make it clear, I love self-links in comments.

That's how we learn from actual experts here on MeFi - people who know stuff or have done stuff can talk about it, or link to stuff they have written about it. This isn't even an issue we need to discuss.
posted by blahblahblah at 1:25 PM on August 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

Mod note: Confirming, relevant self-links with full disclosure are totally fine in comments.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:25 PM on August 2, 2017 [10 favorites]

Sorry, sorry, that was my poor attempt at humor since I was self linking too.
posted by Balna Watya at 1:32 PM on August 2, 2017 [8 favorites]

Not a geologist, but have learned enough to be bothered that the geology of the forest in The Sea of Trees was all wrong for its supposed location.
posted by lagomorphius at 1:49 PM on August 2, 2017

So many plates of beans. I shall not go hungry.
posted by Splunge at 1:50 PM on August 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

To be fair, some of those chroniclers actually hung out with the divine entities in question and were around to watch them do a fair bit of re-shaping of the original design, including the destruction of Beleriand and of course the whole thing where a flat world was turned round at one point.

Or so they'd have you believe.
posted by brennen at 2:04 PM on August 2, 2017 [5 favorites]

I like to think that Arda acquired tectonic plates and everything else when it became a planet, and normal geological processes began to apply. Long after the last of the Noldor have departed for the Undying Lands, Middle-earth's creationists will be pointing at the mountains of Mordor as proof that Ilúvatar exists and the Silmarillion is literally true.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 2:25 PM on August 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

I laughed at Balna Watya's comment, and then I read the following comments and got worried that I'd actually transgressed against the Blue. Glad to see I didn't, and that Balna Watya's comment was actually intended as humor!

By the way, there's something of an active community for this sort of stuff at /r/proceduralgeneration.
posted by srt19170 at 3:16 PM on August 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

Ha, I was going to say something along the lines of "I knew the mountains of Middle-Earth were impossible when I was a wee tot! I didn't need a geologist to tell me that!" and thankfully clicked through first to find he said very much the same thing in the article.
posted by yhbc at 3:26 PM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

I used to fret a little too much over the world maps I would draw for tabletop RPGs; worried about plate tectonics, and also about the rivers and if they were alluvial or bedrock, and then how the land masses would affect the climate and on and on. And while being a DM/GM often means you spend time researching and learning about things you would never otherwise get into, I eventually got to a point where I realized that there was such a thing as worrying too much about this stuff for a world that also had dragons, elves, undead lich kings, goblins riding giant spiders, and so forth.

My goal now is for plausibility - does it, to a general lay person, look plausible? If so, great. If not it's either make a change to the feature that sticks out, or come up with a plausible reason (within the logic of the game world) for things to be that way, and move on. I know others who need things to be absolutely realistic at that level, and that's great - it takes all kinds. But unless the plate tectonics are going to be a major point in the game I'm planning (for example, the story involving a journey into a volcano for the climax), I don't feel a need to be completely realistically detailed
posted by nubs at 3:41 PM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Tibet is pretty like Mordor.

There is basically a right angle bend where the Himalaya meets the Burmese rIver systems.
And the Hindu Kush forms a knob at the other end which you could be forgiven for representing as a corner.

Also the Tsangpo and Indus drain the length of the Himalaya on the Tibetan side.

On the other hand Tibet is the prone body of a demoness so it doesn't have to conform to geological science.
posted by doiheartwentyone at 3:42 PM on August 2, 2017 [7 favorites]

MIDDLE EARTH IS EARTH.


(and therefore also the Planet of the Apes, which explains why the Statue of Liberty is just about sticking out of a mountain.)
posted by Guy Smiley at 5:21 PM on August 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

What??? Self linking in the comments to relevent stuff is ok? Alright then.

• Procedural Gas Giant Planet Textures (arrow keys to navigate slides, probably doesn't work well on mobile. This gas giant thing is probably the best thing I've ever made in my entire life.)
• Procedural Generation of Earthlike Planets. Slides are a little out of date, nowadays it makes things like this or this. All of it is open source (GPLv2).

posted by smcameron at 8:49 PM on August 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

This is a map of Europe done in a 'Middle-Earth' style. The same guy has done other maps, notably for Scotland, and describes his process here.

I think it's a mistake to take Tolkien's cartography literally. It should be interpreted as one might a mappa mundi - an effort to roughly arrange major features with respect to one another, as interpreted by people using pre-industrial cartographic methods (i.e. interviewing people who had visited the places in question). For example, it would probably be unwise to make any determinations about plate tectonics if the only map one had of Earth was the Tabula Rogeriana.
posted by um at 4:39 AM on August 3, 2017 [3 favorites]

Gee, it's almost as if Tolkien's mountains and Martin's seasons, etc, serve a narrative function rather than a scientific one . . .
posted by KingEdRa at 5:06 AM on August 3, 2017