The momentum you give is the momentum you get
August 20, 2017 9:10 PM   Subscribe

And yet there was something about electric bikes that offended me. He hadn’t worked to go that fast. And, after he braked, he wouldn’t have to work to pick up speed again. [SLNewYorker]
posted by Chrysostom (88 comments total) 14 users marked this as a favorite
 
Whoops, I only got about halfway through before my eyes rolled all the way across the room and then I had to go find them.

It's like listening to people try to convince themselves that the dishwasher is a sign of moral decay instead of an easier and more water-efficient way to wash your dishes. Electric bikes are great if your bike is meant as a means by which you transport yourself from Point A to Point B. They're only worrying if your bike is meant as a means by which you define yourself in relation to a nebulous Other. Or, I suppose, if the battery runs out and then you have a very heavy bike to pedal home.
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:25 PM on August 20, 2017 [44 favorites]


Seriously, though, electric-assist bikes are super fun and great if you don't define yourself as a capital-letter Cyclist. They're a little scary the first time you try one out (like any other powered two-wheeled vehicle) but that scariness gives way pretty quickly to a sort of giddy euphoria or, alternately, a quiet delight in being able to actually make it up a steep hill at all.
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:28 PM on August 20, 2017 [4 favorites]


As is always the case when I arrive after a period of months away, I was tuned to any change in the city’s ambient hum.

Daredevil is back in Hell's Kitchen
posted by Bistle at 9:34 PM on August 20, 2017 [33 favorites]


Well, I suppose it's nice to hear from the asshole bicyclist contingent. I mean, the author even graciously acknowledged that there were lesser beings who cannot easy cycle 23 miles per day.

Seriously, biking advocates like this guy actually wonder why, in spite of the benefits of increasing bicycle infrastructure, bicyclists are not universally loved and admired.
posted by happyroach at 9:37 PM on August 20, 2017 [28 favorites]


Some people have a weird sense of propriety over The Way Things Should Be. Here in CA, I've seen people lose their shit over motorcyclists lane splitting. Somehow, that's cheating, and motorcycles should behave exactly like cars, because that would be fair? No, more efficient? No, safer, yeah, that's it, safer.

Though I think it's more like misery loves company. Motorcyclists should be as miserable as the rest of the car commuters stuck in traffic.

Same thing with bicyclists running stop signs. NO FAIR! Even if there is no actual danger to themselves or others. Because rules.

I can't say I've found electric bikes a source of any concern, as a bike commuter myself. They look pretty practical for a lot of people. And maybe for me, too, since by year's end, my commute will be really too far for my human power, sadly.
posted by 2N2222 at 9:56 PM on August 20, 2017 [2 favorites]


“If it’s such a good thing, why do we have this resentment?”

If you can answer this you have solved a huge part of American politics.
posted by aubilenon at 10:26 PM on August 20, 2017 [31 favorites]


Electric bikes can be dangerous. Some of them are as fast as motorcycles, but they typically are not riding in the car lane, but along the edge where people are not expecting or reacting to something moving that fast.

A friend of mine rode one to work every day until someone opened their car door in front of him. He was going fast, so he got pretty banged up. He's lucky to be alive. He refuses to ever ride a bike of any kind again.
posted by eye of newt at 10:32 PM on August 20, 2017 [1 favorite]


Before it goes under water, New York will briefly be a utopia where your legal weed gets delivered by driverless, electric bikes.
posted by Team of Scientists at 10:33 PM on August 20, 2017 [17 favorites]


Thank you, random New Yorker, for yet another 'What's the deal with this thing nobody actually has a deal with?...never mind, we're talking about me now' article. I especially appreciated the precise coordinates of every intersection you encountered. Oh, in Paris too. Of course you were in Paris.

Do microwaves next. You get the best 'ambient hum' if you put your head inside.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 10:33 PM on August 20, 2017 [36 favorites]


They're only worrying if your bike is meant as a means by which you define yourself in relation to a nebulous Other.

In this article, yeah. I help build and maintain mountain bike trails for the BLM and USFS. Electric bikes raise a number of issues. They are clearly motorized, so off limits on many trails. But, how does that comport with access rights via the ADA, for example.

Breathless Newyorker article aside, that is going to be a biggish fight.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:34 PM on August 20, 2017 [16 favorites]


With the ever-fragile state of bicycle commuting, I'm all about the big-tent strategy: electric-assist, recumbent, whatever - if it isn't a car, I'm for it.

That said, a lot of the electric bicycles I've seen, and the gas-powered bicycle-moped hybrids - well, they're mopeds. Fancy, rebranded, renamed mopeds. Now, I'm pro-moped (anything but cars!) but, unlike bicycles and like cars, e-bikepeds make it easy to go stupidly fast without thinking about it. One of the big advantages of bicycles is that going fast is hard, physically, and noticeable, mentally: if you're heading down a hill at 35mph, you're going to be very aware of your physical precarity. Motor-assisted vehicles throw all that out the window, and, well, that's kind of a problem.
posted by tmcw at 10:35 PM on August 20, 2017 [13 favorites]


Before it goes under water, New York will briefly be a utopia where your legal weed gets delivered by driverless, electric bikes.--Team of Scientists

Driverless bike (That young engineer is Anthony Levandowski, now in the middle of the Google-Uber mess).
posted by eye of newt at 10:41 PM on August 20, 2017 [1 favorite]


As with many activities, """cycling culture""" is the worst thing about cycling.

Speed limits are one thing, and I'm totally in favor of having them for bike lanes (they're already set at 15 mph here), but as long as you're driving carefully there is more than enough road for everyone. Even capped at 15 mph e-bikes could help a lot of people take time and energy out of their commute.
posted by en forme de poire at 10:42 PM on August 20, 2017 [2 favorites]


I would probably define myself as a capital-C Cyclist; for over a decade I've done most of my transit by bike, I consider that choice to be a significant part of my identity, and I'm not gonna lie: having someone on an electric bike effortlessly pass me up a hill can be kind of galling! So maybe it's because I saw some of myself in this article, but I didn't find it as asinine as others seemed to. I share that feeling of "this annoys me, but I know that it's stupid that it does so." E-bikes democratize cycling and get more people on the roads, which is better for all cyclists. I'm young-ish and reasonably fit and have a decently short commute: absolutely the pinnacle of privilege when it comes to cycling options, and e-bikes make cycling accessible to people without that privilege. I know all this and I think e-bikes are a good thing for everyone. But still, when someone on an e-bike just breezes right past me, I have to suppress my immediate response of "You cheater." It's dumb! But it happens anyway!
posted by valrus at 10:42 PM on August 20, 2017 [37 favorites]


Here in my hilly hometown in Norway e-bikes are really taking off. We have good infrastructure and short distances, but it's, you know, hilly. So e-bikes fit really well as they take the edge off by virtually "leveling" the hills.
posted by Harald74 at 11:00 PM on August 20, 2017 [4 favorites]


What I hear from all who have invested in e-bikes is that it's suddenly more comfortable and enjoyable to ride, so they actually ride a lot more. They might not get quite the workout they would get with a regular bike on any given stretch of road, but they ride a lot more and the sum total of exercise is greater.
posted by Harald74 at 11:02 PM on August 20, 2017 [8 favorites]


Mod note: A couple deleted. Seriously, let's not do the same "cyclists are the worst! / No, cars are the worst!" argument that completely derails any thread about cycling.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:14 PM on August 20, 2017 [14 favorites]


Depending on there you are, being an "electric" bicycle means that you have to have "car" level insurance.

You are not a moped - they have VINs. So you can't get moped insurance. You might have a VIN if you did not buy a 2KW hub motor and slapped it on your own bike. And if you get a hub motor over "1 HP" (744 or so watts) you are limited to 20 MPH while in electric mode per the GW Bush signed electric bike law.

Oh, and once you go electric you are no longer under the '3 foot wide passing' rules. (which are not enforced anyway) at least in the state I know of. Why? Because that is for bicycles and you are no longer a bicycle. You are a "motorized vehicle"
posted by rough ashlar at 11:29 PM on August 20, 2017


Seriously, though, electric-assist bikes are super fun and great if you don't define yourself as a capital-letter Cyclist.

I cycle regularly, so yeah, I probably define as a cyclist (albeit one who drives in a carshare program as well when necessary), and yeah, I fucking hate e-bikes, which I have to deal with all the time. (I am herein defining "e-bikes" as the electric mopeds with token pedals, as opposed to the electric-motor-assisted regular bikes. Those are fine and help people cycle.)

I hate e-bikes because in my experience there are exactly two types of e-bike riders: disabled people who can't ride a bike any other way, and who ride their e-bikes carefully and with consideration for everybody else on the road, and then there are inconsiderate near-psychotics who go above and beyond the usual loose rules most cyclists play with ("stop signs should be treated slow yields," for example) and just do whatever the fuck they like, and I wouldn't care half as much if they were doing whatever the fuck they liked outside of the bike lanes. Well, no, I'd still care, I just wouldn't have to deal with them hurtling through bike lanes.

We require licenses for moped drivers, and e-bikes are basically just mopeds with a lower top speed. They can do serious damage, way moreso than a regular bicycle can, but literally anybody can just hop on an e-bike with no license or even training. They're terrible and because drivers think anything in a bike lane is a "bike" they help to fuel anti-cyclist animus. It's incredibly aggravating.
posted by mightygodking at 11:30 PM on August 20, 2017 [10 favorites]


E-bikes in Norway are assist-only from 6 km/h to 25 km/h, where the motor cuts out. For a single-seater two-wheeled bike the power is limited to 250 W.

Anything more powerful is a moped or motorcycle and have the same rules for liability insurance, licensing, helmet use etc.
posted by Harald74 at 11:38 PM on August 20, 2017 [17 favorites]


Seriously, let's not do the same "cyclists are the worst! / No, cars are the worst!" argument that completely derails any thread about cycling.

I suppose you'd call that argument a... derailleur?
posted by J.K. Seazer at 11:46 PM on August 20, 2017 [62 favorites]


Yeah, here in CA e-bike also specifically means assist-only; if it can go unassisted it's a moped and you need a driver's license. The article is also about the first category specifically, I think.
posted by en forme de poire at 11:48 PM on August 20, 2017 [2 favorites]


"It was not, I insisted, an ego thing about who is going faster. "

The rest of the article makes it clear that this is a lie and it totally is an ego thing about who is going faster.

I don't ride an e-bike myself (yet), but I think they are great, because they allow people of different physical abilities to ride together. They are just the thing if you don't have showers at work and don't want to arrive covered in sweat, or if you are starting out cycle commuting and aren't sure if you can make it under your own power. As club riders get older, they lose power and start getting dropped on the hills, and e-bikes allow them to keep participating for longer.
posted by cyanistes at 12:08 AM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


My experience with an electric bike (my wife's) is that the 80 pound beast has about enough electric power to lug around its extra 50 pounds. Every time I change to my 20 year old basic unsprung trailbike I feel like I suddenly got wings in my legs. And I can go faster.
posted by Laotic at 12:27 AM on August 21, 2017


I bet we'll see significantly higher fatality rates in collisions involving ebikes, even at a given speed.

I've been hit really hard by cars three times while riding my bike, and I believe two of those collisions would have been fatal except for the toughness and body control I developed propelling myself and that heavy bicycle up all those hills.
posted by jamjam at 12:28 AM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


I recently had my first electric bike experience, riding a fully sprung Trek electric bike around the mountains in Switzerland: it was a revelation, and let us take on a 60km trail that would otherwise have been way out of reach (suggested time for the ride is 8 hours). The "turbo" mode lets you attack steep loose roads that would be crawled up in the lowest gear by even dedicated mountain bikers. Indeed, we waltzed past a few groups who were training for the "Grand Raid" (starting from Verbier, and taking about 16 hours to complete) with plenty in reserve, and suffered a number of good-natured epithets in several languages in response. Broad smiles ensued...
posted by pjm at 1:12 AM on August 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


We hired electro bikes in Austria a couple of years ago. I was able to complete a 37km trail with my much fitter partner and which I could never have got near otherwise. We went through a stunning alpine valley and it made for a great part of the trip. We did have more than one person look askance and even heard someone behind us tut out 'electro!', I thought he was going to spit he seemed so put out.

I have thought about buying one so I could cycle in to work but local road safety puts me off.
posted by biffa at 1:18 AM on August 21, 2017


“If it’s such a good thing, why do we have this resentment?” I asked.

Pretty much all of humanity summed up right here.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 1:30 AM on August 21, 2017


The local regional paved trail system just started allowing ebikes for a 1 year pilot period. Back when they were still banned I asked the trail supervisor if it was the top speed at issue with the 15mph speed limit? He told me no, they're mostly governed at 28mph ( technically 20mph on off-street facilities ) and the club riders routinely come through at higher speeds in their mini pelotons. The big problem was their acceleration was so high and pedestrians were unaccustomed to getting out of the way of bicycles coming off a dead stop that fast.

As for resentment, I think cyclists aren't resenting other people on ebikes so much as they are that feeling of inevitably giving in to something that robs them of both challenge and accomplishment. Because in the US at least it feels like many commute cyclists aren't doing it for efficiency, but because motor vehicles don't relieve stress the way non-motor biking does.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:53 AM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


My main observation (on my daily cycle commute) is that where before a certain subset of elderly people on bikes would pootle along at 5 mph, head down, blissfully ignoring all traffic signs, and mostly bothering nobody, now they zip along at 15mph, head down, tartan scarf flapping behind, blissfully ignoring all traffic signs, and scare the bejeezus out of everyone. (I'd swear I heard one of them yelling "poop poop!")

But when my knees finally give out completely I'm totally getting one (an electric assist, that is, not a tartan scarf.)
posted by Luddite at 2:00 AM on August 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


Here in my hilly hometown in Norway e-bikes are really taking off. We have good infrastructure and short distances, but it's, you know, hilly. So e-bikes fit really well as they take the edge off by virtually "leveling" the hills.

An earlier Norwegian solution to the problem of cycling where it's hilly: bike escalators. Small rails built into the road with pedal-like footholds that cyclists can get a ride up on.
posted by acb at 3:48 AM on August 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


As a relatively avid cyclist, I have zero problems with electric assist bicycles.

Those electric scooters with the little vestigial pedals stuck on the sides, however, are the official vehicle of dritbags (at least here in Toronto).

I have no opinion on tartan scarves.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:19 AM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


Those electric scooters with the little vestigial pedals stuck on the sides, however, are the official vehicle of dritbags (at least here in Toronto)

Is this an Ontario thing? I know in Hamilton, and where I live in Kingston, it's generally acknowledged that they're used almost only by people who have lost drivers' licenses due to DUIs. I don't know if it's true-true or truthy classist creepiness, but it's certainly a 'fact' that I've internalized to a degree.
posted by Shepherd at 4:34 AM on August 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


I like tartan scarves and the idea of e-bikes but oh wow, are they dangerous. Mostly because they're sold to people who're not necessarily used to going that fast and/or don't have the quick reflexes one might need to go 20km/h+ through busy traffic. Maybe some sort of education or at least a basic driver's licence would be a good idea - I know it is necessary for small petrol-engined bikes that aren't really going all that much faster.
posted by dominik at 5:09 AM on August 21, 2017


Motorized vehicles are motorized vehicles, no matter the form factor.
posted by grumpybear69 at 5:25 AM on August 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


As another Torontonian, I will add that my main problem with e-mail bikes is the dirtbag drivers.
posted by Evstar at 5:40 AM on August 21, 2017


Motorized vehicles are motorized vehicles, no matter the form factor.

There's definitely a point at which it is a motorized vehicle and should be licensed and regulated as such. Where, exactly, that point is I don't know, but at first glance the Norway rules mentioned above make a lot of sense, and it's likely that companies and users are abusing that ambiguity (eg, by riding bikes that should be counted as mopeds on sidewalks).

Where I live I see an odd variety of electric things going past on the bike path, including electric skateboards, an unstable looking unicycle/Segway hybrid, and electrified kick scooters, along with the electric bikes/mopeds. Some of them are crazy fast, some are obviously unstable, and others are barely faster than the pedestrians. It's a weird mix and apparently totally unregulated at the moment.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:55 AM on August 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


I've just moved to the top of a hill, and seeing as I don't want to climb 140m to the top of a hill every evening, but don't want to take the bus all the time (even though the service is surprisingly good) or buy a car, I'll be buying one of these for my Surly. Because I want the freedom of a bike, even when I'm not feeling that energetic. And I'm not particularly interested in being called anti-social when my city suffers from an excess of cars, not bikes.

But, yes, laws are needed, and those laws exist in Europe. Max speed 25km/h (the assist cuts out if it's any faster), max power 250W, and you have to be pedalling to get power.
posted by ambrosen at 5:56 AM on August 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


Dip Flash, the Norwegian rules are the same as the EU's, so hopefully the rest of the developed world will take them as a template, too.
posted by ambrosen at 5:59 AM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


These things are illegal in NYC, and I definitely wouldn't favor changing that without having very specific laws in place about what differentiates these from mopeds. There's enough animosity towards cyclists already. And enough danger faced by cyclists. Let's not put rebranded motorcycles in bike lanes.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:20 AM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


These things are illegal in NYC

That may be, but Federal law says 20mph/1HP. In NYC can you only then ride such a bike on actual federal roadways?

(Oh an 200 watts is the output of a fit person peddling for hours. 600 watts was Lance Armstongs bursty-output. So 1HP/700+ watts exceeds having Lance strapped to your bike)

HR 727
To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products subject to such Act.

Law:
SECTION 1. CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY ACT.

The Consumer Product Safety Act (15 U.S.C. 2051 et seq.) is amended by adding at the end the following:

low-speed electric bicycles

Sec. 38. (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products within the meaning of section 3(a)(1) and shall be subject to the Commission regulations published at section 1500.18(a)(12) and part 1512 of title 16, Code of Federal Regulations.

(b) For the purpose of this section, the term `low-speed electric bicycle' means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:28 AM on August 21, 2017


Metafilter: it's nice to hear from the asshole bicyclist contingent.
posted by thelonius at 6:35 AM on August 21, 2017 [4 favorites]


It's clear that peoples' experiences with e-bikes vary from place to place and this has to do with the way the vehicles are regulated. In the European Union, e-bikes are limited by law to 25 km/h (about 15 mph) — you can pedal them faster than that if you are fit enough but you get no assistance from the motor. (Electrical two-wheelers without this limitation are treated as mopeds, requiring license & insurance). 25 km/h is within the range of speeds for ordinary commuting cyclists, so e-bike riders seem to mix fine with general bicycle traffic. (They are straightforward to spot because of the way they travel at a steady 25 km/h, whereas other cyclists have to speed up and slow down according to gradient and wind direction.)

However, in the US I see that (in many states) e-bikes are limited to 20 mph (about 32 km/h) which is faster than nearly all ordinary commuting cyclists. I can see that this might make it harder to mix with them. But on the other hand they would make good targets for drafting...
posted by cyanistes at 6:36 AM on August 21, 2017


In the European Union, e-bikes are limited by law to 25 km/h (about 15 mph) — you can pedal them faster than that if you are fit enough but you get no assistance from the motor.

This doesn't fit with my anecdata, which is that I got up to about 40km/h on an e-bike in Germany last summer and I am a knacker.
posted by biffa at 6:40 AM on August 21, 2017


However, in the US I see that (in many states) e-bikes are limited to 20 mph

20 mph OR 1 hp.

So you can have a 2kW motor but once you get to 20 mph that's it. Or you can go "1 hp" (744/750 watts) and just use 750 watts of power.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:44 AM on August 21, 2017


That may be, but Federal law says 20mph/1HP. In NYC can you only then ride such a bike on actual federal roadways?

No, you can't ride them anywhere at all - I didn't say they're illegal in bike lanes/certain streets, I said they're illegal. (Didn't realize it was statewide.)

The state of New York (NY) defines an electric bike as a bike with a small motor attached. [...] Electric bicycles may not be ridden on any street, highway, parking lot, sidewalk or other in New York State that allows public motor traffic.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:51 AM on August 21, 2017


I also worked as a bike messenger

Now it all makes sense.

Seriously though every bike messenger I've met has super annoying puritanical views about bike riding and also thinks they are the most special human beings on earth. Of course they would think using a motor-assisted bike would be cheating, because bicyling is about relishing the pain of a full day of tags on a fixie with no breaks for less than minimum wage, relishing it, but getting to complain about it too, as if they had no choice and also didn't love the fuck out of their coolness/martyrdom combo.
posted by dis_integration at 6:53 AM on August 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


I suspect a lot of people who are excited about e-bikes are really motorcyclists at heart, and would potentially enjoy a motor scooter or dirt bike even more. But they would never think of considering themselves motorcyclists, as that culture can be even more off-putting than cycling! It could be a really interesting route for motorcycling to reinvent itself. Compare with the impact electric cars are having on car culture.
posted by other barry at 6:59 AM on August 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


So, all electric bikes are illegal NY state-wide (which is dumb to begin with), but technically NYC has legalized e-assist bikes (ie, no separate throttle, the motor only kicks in when you are pedaling). I don't think anyone has issues with e-assist bikes except pro cyclists concerned with motor-doping.

But the electric bikes with throttles and vestigial pedals? They are mopeds. It is stupid that they aren't treated as mopeds, simply because they do not take gasoline. Should they be allowed in bike lanes? Absolutely not. Should they have their own lane on bridges over the East River adjacent to car traffic? Absolutely.

The city would be way better off with fewer people driving cars and more people riding e-mopeds (ideally, we'd get an exemption on e-mopeds in the coming congestion charge bill). It's a damn shame that no one is willing to go to bat for them.
posted by thecaddy at 7:03 AM on August 21, 2017


biffa, it looks as if that's an S-pedelec, which is a moped style thing only legal in parts of the EU. From this guide to electric bikes.
posted by ambrosen at 7:03 AM on August 21, 2017


I have a bike that I just took in for a tune-up because I haven't ridden it in 2 years. I still haven't ridden it again because the last half mile of literally any route to my house from anywhere else is about 400 ft gain in elevation. I'm in reasonably good shape for 40+ with a desk job but that's just not fun for me.

Bike elevator, electric assist, I don't care what the solution is but there is always going to be a hard limit on who can bike commute in a mountainous city otherwise. (I would looooove a bike elevator up my hill. The thing about that though is that we have so many hills--there's even a bike race here called the Dirty Dozen where complete loons tackle twelve of the steepest hills in the city all in one day--so it'd be impossible to pick a hill or even 10 hills to install these things on.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:12 AM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


E-bikes / e-scooters are a great option for a lot of people, especially those with disabilities. I'm cool with that.

But we have to figure out where they can ride safely and effectively. They can be almost as heavy and fast as a moped/scooter, but they're almost totally silent. Over the past few years, in addition to multiple close passes relatively high speeds, I've nearly been hit by an e-scooter salmoning up Christie St. (Toronto) in the wrong bike lane, and was almost grazed by a VERY brisk e-scooter with a passenger on the back when I was walking on a SIDEWALK at dusk. Regular cyclists can also pull these asshole moves, but they usually wouldn't deliver as much damage if a collision did occur because physics.

I've also noticed that we've broadened the styling from the bicycle-shaped e-bikes, to scooter-styled vehicles, to vehicles that are styled to look like motorcycles -- and the latter type seems to be driven by people who really want to play motorcycle, which, well, sounds like a blast but not in my bike lane, please. (This one weighs 120 kg/265 pounds. Add a 180 pound guy to get to 445 pounds combined, and maybe a passenger to get you to 550-600 pounds combined. Rev up to 32 km/hour, then hit a 180 pound cyclist on a 25 pound bike. It is not going to be a fun result.)

Should e-bikes and e-scooters take the lane along with car traffic? Can they share painted bike lanes with regular bikes? Can they use separated bike lanes/cycle tracks? This Toronto city page says nothing about putting these vehicles in traffic with cars (their max speed is 32 km/hr, which is higher than most cyclists' cruising speed), but seems to allow them in painted bike lanes that are not separated.
posted by maudlin at 7:18 AM on August 21, 2017


Add me to the contingent of people from Toronto who hate the ones with the little vestigial pedals. They piss me off because they're so obviously built to flout the rules. I want to see them all declared illegal. Grararar.

(I had also heard the DUI thing but as far as I know it's just hearsay)

I'm pro e-bikes in the sense of actual bikes with an electric assist for people who need it or to get up hills, though. Here in Seattle on my commute there's a couple of people with e-bikes with long rear seats that hold two small children. It's pretty impressive to be passed by one of those (I am...not very fast).
posted by quaking fajita at 7:53 AM on August 21, 2017


(I had also heard the DUI thing but as far as I know it's just hearsay)

One data point: The gent who decided he'd have a business making 49cc gas versions of the bike-with-motor-on-it had on his Facebook page 'today is the 1st day I can drive again' and a few days later went into how he was doing the 'gas bike' thing to avoid the issues with the DUI. The web pages for his gas-bike thing (at $3-4K a pop!) was claiming it was just like a bicycle and how you didn't need insurance.

His "manufacturing" is still in the same place. He's in California with his dad and now trying to sell insurance, over 2000 miles away. The window always has the same gas-bike. Fpr 3 years.

And while looking up the data a few years ago just after the importation of 49cc 4 cycle engines was made harder (along with Lister style engines) for air pollution reasons there were active comment sections about getting the bicycle+gas engine to avoid insurance costs after DUIs.
posted by rough ashlar at 8:23 AM on August 21, 2017


There's a place here in Atlanta that sells the electric assist bikes called Edison Bikes (ironic name in that I think, IIRC from a brochure I read about them, the battery they use is from Tesla) and have thought about getting one. They're a bit pricey, but you'd spend around that much for a decent road-bike anyway (maybe not that much for a hybrid, I suppose). Their office is just around the corner from where I live as well.
posted by snwod at 8:42 AM on August 21, 2017


I would far rather see one of those vestigial pedal things on the road than another car.
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:46 AM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


Kids these days. Must be all that rock and roll.

When I was your age we walked everywhere, dangit, and we were perfectly happy.

Get off my lawn.

*refills hard candy dishes on the coffee table*
posted by ananci at 9:41 AM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


The EU laws seem pretty decent to be considered a traditional bike.

- Be fitted with a motor with 250w continuous rating.
- Provide a maximum assisted speed of about 25kph/16mph
- Not be fitted with an independent throttle (only pedal assist) unless it's to just get you to 6kph.

I think having set limits on acceleration curves and max speeds seems a sensible idea, and then allowing bigger motors to allow a <100w cyclist to get up a steep hill with ease.

I'm a big road-bike nerd, but I still use my janky ebike to get me up to work to avoid being a sweaty mess.

The more people can use bikes of any kind, the better all round.
posted by Static Vagabond at 9:46 AM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


I would far rather see one of those vestigial pedal things on the road than another car.

Sure! But I also don't want one of these things going 32 km/hr in a narrow bike lane. If someone's riding a $3000 play-Harley at maximum speed, they should be in the car lane. (Everyone else on skinny and sane e-bikes with assisted pedalling: welcome to the lane that a lot of new cyclists are just starting to use!)
posted by maudlin at 9:54 AM on August 21, 2017


Sure! But I also don't want one of these things going 32 km/hr in a narrow bike lane.

And this is happening exactly where? The web page has that under "scooters" - are scooters also allowed in the bicycle lane where you are?

And I didn't see on the advertising pages - where are they claiming you can use it in a bike lane?
posted by rough ashlar at 10:08 AM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


Here is a non-exhaustive list of ways in which pedal assist e-bikes (not mopeds, which this article is not about) would improve my personal commute:
  • I could possibly go up the "13% grade in mixed traffic" bit that lies between me and the most direct way to get to work. Right now I have to go way out of my way to avoid the worst hills.
  • I could accelerate quickly to change lanes more safely, which is useful because the double-parking lane bike lane is often blocked.
  • I could keep up with traffic more easily if I had to share lanes with cars, meaning that people would be less likely to pass me unsafely (yesterday I and the car behind me got passed at a four-way stop by a pickup truck making a left turn that barely even slowed down at the intersection; Uber drivers are also likely to do something ill-advised like this because they typically come from outside the city and aren't used to bikes).
  • I also wouldn't have to go 25-30 the entire way into work, like I would if I got a scooter/motorcycle. This is important to me because a crash at 15mph is like falling off a ladder, but a crash at 30 is like falling off a three-story building. I could also still use bike infrastructure, which is great because crashes with cars are the most deadly.
  • My commute to work is downhill on average, which means my commute back home is 6.5 miles of uphill slog. So it takes me around 40 minutes to get in but over an hour to get back. On an e-bike I could potentially cut that down to 35 minutes each way, which would give me more of my day back.
  • Usually after biking home I am too wiped to do anything, especially e.g. take another bike trip to buy groceries or clean the house. If I were only moderately wiped this would also give me more of my day back.
  • My commute takes me through at least two different microclimates so I'm usually under or overdressed, which means I'm usually a sweaty wreck even at the end of the downhill bit.
Etc.
posted by en forme de poire at 10:11 AM on August 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


And hey, as long as we're all ventilating feelings that we know are kind of irrational and hurtful, as if that awareness makes them okay to express in public: the fact that some hard-boy wannabe bike messengers and a handful of jersey-wearers and people who identify as "Cyclists" would be annoyed by my presence on an e-bike is honestly kind of a plus. The type of bike culture they are clinging to is garbage that can't die too suddenly for my pleasure. Again, just my initial, unfiltered emotional reaction, since that suddenly seems to be important for everyone else to know about!
posted by en forme de poire at 10:13 AM on August 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


I just recently started contemplating buying an electric bike--most of my life I've done a lot of my commuting and general getting-around by bike, but now that I'm in my sixties my knees are like "LOL no" and I really miss it, especially as a way to get out and explore neighborhoods. The price tag is a big deterrent, though; does anyone who's been following the e-bike market have a sense of whether prices have dropped over time/are likely to drop in the next few years at all?
posted by Kat Allison at 10:58 AM on August 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


Again, just my initial, unfiltered emotional reaction, since that suddenly seems to be important for everyone else to know about!

Jesus, why do people get so het up about this article?

Let me quote you another hack writer, one "George Orwell":

When I want to go up to London why do I not pack my luggage on to a mule and set out on foot, making a two days of it? Because, with the Green Line buses whizzing past me every ten minutes, such a journey would be intolerably irksome. In order that one may enjoy primitive methods of travel, it is necessary that no other method should be available. No human being ever wants to do anything in a more cumbrous way than is necessary...

The tendency of mechanical progress, then, is to frustrate the human need for effort and creation.


Hacker News comment were even funnier, people complaining that this guy's essay made for bad public policy and that you can't uninvent the e-bike and how e-bikes are so much better than cars, etc. This is just an essay on one guys feelings. Why is everyone so threatened by this? There's a utopian desire out there amongst people to go back to simpler ways of living, but the author fully acknowledges that it's not going to happen.

The type of bike culture they are clinging to is garbage that can't die too suddenly for my pleasure.

Did a cyclist piss in your cheerios or something? Maybe a cyclist killed your dog when you were a child? Where the heck does this sort of sentiment come from?
posted by GuyZero at 11:59 AM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


E-bikes are good and cool and useful, even if they're not for me at this point in my life. Hard no on the gas-powered mopeds, though. Loud, smelly, and wildly inappropriate for the MUP. Even if you're lucky enough not to have been nearby when someone rode one down the trail, you can still tell they were there ten minutes later from the stench. I can cope with being passed by anyone as long as they do it safely and politely. If you're on an e-bike, you shouldn't be enough of a weight weenie to avoid mounting a bell on your handlebars.

But more important than any of our personal opinions about e-bikes—those last two paragraphs. Is the implication that the older man the writer encountered was a (possibly retired) mime? Do all French people of a certain age learn to pantomime that effectively? That is a lot of meaning to convey without words while someone's speeding past you on a bicycle.

With impeccably expressive poise, he mimed an orangutan staring sadly at his own reflection.

I mean, come on.
posted by asperity at 12:19 PM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


I mean, come on.

Hey, I'm not going to describe the guy as a great writer, there's a limit to what I'll defend.
posted by GuyZero at 12:23 PM on August 21, 2017


it's generally acknowledged that they're used almost only by people who have lost drivers' licenses due to DUIs

That seems to be the consensus down in London area as well.

Personally - I've never been interested in the moped style - I want an electric assist bicycle - but with enough power/battery that it could assist me all the way home for about 10km.
posted by jkaczor at 12:33 PM on August 21, 2017


This is just an essay on one guys feelings. Why is everyone so threatened by this?

Why are you so threatened by my feelings? I mean, I'm just one guy and I don't even have an article in the New Yorker.

Of course, I understand that people relate to cycling in different ways and that some people are really into that type of competitive machismo, and rationally, I don't have a problem with different people having different motivations for biking. I do happen to think that urban cycling culture includes a lot of elitist, exclusionary garbage that manifests in how experienced cyclists treat anyone who wants to bike but doesn't share their priorities, fitness level, technical know-how, or level of experience. I think those attitudes are objectionable and counterproductive, at least if the aim is getting more people on the streets and out of cars as opposed to demonstrating one's superiority over others.

But my larger point was that if Cyclists are going to make everyone else listen to their unfiltered emotional reactions, regardless of whether or not expressing them is likely to have the effect of further discouraging filthy casuals from bike commuting, then hey, guess what, those guys get to listen to mine! Shrug emoji.

(FWIW: I have never owned a car and have been commuting exclusively by bike and transit for a decade, though most of my bike commutes were pretty short until last year.)
posted by en forme de poire at 12:33 PM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


regardless of whether or not expressing them is likely to have the effect of further discouraging filthy casuals from bike commuting

I really don't get how anyone is going to get discouraged from bike commuting by reading this article. Discouraged by it being hard, by getting sweaty, by having to wear a helmet or by having randos tell you that you should be wearing a helmet, sure. Those things are what discourages me from biking to work and I bike to work lots.

I do not get how you can read this passage in the article and come away thinking this guy is discouraging anyone from anything:

And yet, for all our shared sense that something was wrong with electric bikes, we agreed that, by any rational measure, they are a force for good.

“The engines are efficient, they reduce congestion,” he said.

“Fewer cars, more bikes,” I said.


The guy has mixed feelings, has a vaguely utopian view of cycling and doesn't make any requests that anything die or state that anything is garbage.
posted by GuyZero at 12:46 PM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


I'm a long time bike commuter and have bought, built and ridden more than one electric bike. My usual feeling after owning one is they are more trouble than they are worth day to day from the batteries, to the weight, to the expense, to the theft hazard, changing tires on the road and so forth. I've always ended up getting rid of the electric ride as a bigger hassle than the effort it supposedly replaces. On the down side, riding electric is not riding a bike, it's something else. The addition of a motor changes the behavior of the bike in ways not usually perceived by the rider until something goes awry. Like zipping down a road so fast motorists don't even see you because you're small and not bobbing away like a biker usually does. Or constant power applied to a rear wheel in a curve spinning your bike out from under you.
The only time I notice electric bikes is when I see someone zipping along a bike path at 25-30mph, well beyond the capacity of the rider and just not a reasonable way to ride on a public non-auto thruway. If an e-bike makes it possible for someone to get on a bike that would not otherwise do so, great. It's the human missiles on amped-up e-bikes that I find somewhat atrocious.
Still I fantasize about a recumbent cargo bike with e-assist as the ultimate 2nd car replacement, lots of load capacity, comfortable, high torque and not too fast.
posted by diode at 1:18 PM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


Last comment here, but the whole essay is pretty plainly an expression of, and an attempt to rationalize, the feeling that there's something morally suspicious about pedal-assist e-bikes. The parts you're citing are actually totally undermined in context -- they're an expression of how the author thinks he ought to feel as a good progressive, but actually doesn't. The overall effect of the essay is rather to say that if you ride an e-bike, good for society maybe, but also know that people like me and my friends, Actual Cyclists, are going to judge you, call you lazy, and compare you to one of the most infamous dopers (“Everyone cheats now. They see Lance Armstrong do it. They see these one-percenters making a ton of money without doing anything. So they think, why do I have to work hard? So now it’s O.K. for everyone to cheat. Everyone does it”), and are also maybe going to try to pressure you out of what little car-separated infrastructure bikes have ("I think there should be a very simple classification: human-powered or not human-powered. And if you are not human-powered, you should not be using human-powered infrastructure. You should be in the street"). It's pretty obviously discouraging to people considering an e-bike to be called a lazy cheat, even in a "ha ha, I'm obviously kidding... except kind of not?" kind of way. And it's discouraging to hear that they won't be welcome in the infrastructure that helps protect bikers from cars and that they "should" be in precisely the more dangerous mixed traffic they were likely hoping to avoid (otherwise, they'd be buying scooters and motorcycles). If you don't see that, then I guess we're at an impasse.
posted by en forme de poire at 1:20 PM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


The author clearly has mixed feelings, there's no denying that, but I don't get why one side of the argument is his actual feelings and the other side is merely performative. Maybe both sides are his actual feelings.
posted by GuyZero at 1:27 PM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


And it's discouraging to hear that they won't be welcome in the infrastructure that helps protect bikers from cars and that they "should" be in precisely the more dangerous mixed traffic they were likely hoping to avoid (otherwise, they'd be buying scooters and motorcycles)

I think there's some legitimate concern that a bike like the Specialized Turbo Vada (a type 3 bike in CA regulations), which can hit 28 MPH and accelerates significantly faster than a non-electric bike, may not always mix well with people doing 15 MPH on regular bikes. 28 MPH is pretty darn fast. It's akin to allowing mopeds to use the bike lane.

I pass and get passed by type 1 and 2 bikes on my commute from time to time and it's not a huge deal in the sprawling, empty roads of the south bay. I think some poor person navigating much more crowded roads in NYC and having ebikes slalom past them at nearly twice their speed might be off-putting and possibly dangerous.
posted by GuyZero at 1:33 PM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


If NYC cyclists have to deal with stuff like this in their "dedicated" bike lanes, honestly I can see why they'd be kind of salty.
posted by GuyZero at 1:45 PM on August 21, 2017


I just want to know where I can learn to mime that effectively. I have a hard time getting the concept of "hang up your phone!" across to drivers, so I envy this anonymous French man's ability to convey "orangutan with mirror" to a cyclist. That's next-level mimecraft.
posted by asperity at 2:30 PM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


The author clearly has mixed feelings, there's no denying that, but I don't get why one side of the argument is his actual feelings and the other side is merely performative.

OK, one last time: because even when he's talking about the benefits of e-bikes he uses almost exclusively backhanded compliments like "narcotic and delightful", "assisted-living," "cruising effortlessly", "joyous stealth or imposture," "appealing to the point of corruption", akin to the "insidious genius" of a smartphone, etc. He even describes himself on an e-bike as being "like some mouse in a cognitive-behavior experiment [who] began to crave that bump". This is language chosen to suggest something unearned (narcotic, effortless), morally suspect (imposture, insidious, craving, corrupt), and infantilizing (assisted-living, like some lab mouse). The final anecdote (which btw, was he taking a selfie while riding?!) even paints him as feeling "chastened" after being called out for succumbing to the lure of technology. Even when he talks about the benefits it's just in terms of a bland "list" of "Goo-Goo virtues," referencing a mildly derogatory term for naive, idealistic government do-gooders. In contrast, non-assisted cyclists are described as being "spartan", full of "solitude and self-reliance", "tuned" to the "rhythm" and "hum" of traffic in the city. If he had genuinely mixed feelings that would show up in how he describes the other side of the argument, and it doesn't -- it's very clear where his sympathies actually lie.

To respond briefly to your other points, I have already indicated my support for speed limits for bike lanes in this thread (I was wrong about SF already having them, though, I think); I bike commute within the city and have never once had an e-bike "slalom" around me nor would I endorse that kind of driving; and that link appears to describe a problem with pedestrians clogging the bike lane so I'm not sure how it relates here.
posted by en forme de poire at 3:03 PM on August 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


I'd love to join in, but I'm still waiting for the thread to work out the difference between e-assist e-bikes and fully electric mopeds with vestigial pedals.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:45 PM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


Why is everyone so threatened by this?

Who's threatened? He comes across as a self-involved, irrelevant windbag - like somebody bemoaning a hedonistic, weak society's moral decline as it chooses microwave ovens over woodfired stoves, or digital audio over a valve radio. He's laughable, not threatening.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 5:11 PM on August 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


you just don't get the same warm sound as you do from gears and chains
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:35 PM on August 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


The trick is to use a green magic marker on the outside of the gears and chains
posted by en forme de poire at 5:44 PM on August 21, 2017 [4 favorites]


Electric assist bikes are tremendously fun. I've ridden one (a Faraday Porteur) at a previous job to fetch lunch and go to the bank. However, they are expensive and seem like a huge hassle, but I'm probably not their target audience. I already climb two big hills as part of my daily commute, and I don't covet electric assistance. (Frankly I don't want to deal with electric shifting on my bike, either, what with charging batteries, updating firmware and all that. I know it's not the same thing. I'm just saying I prefer the simplicity of cables. Charging my Garmin is more than I want to deal with.) The aftermarket kits I've seen look rickety and not terribly safe.

Recently, I found out that an acquaintance was hit head-on by an ebike this spring on the westside bike path here in NYC, and is still suffering from the aftermath of a pretty bad concussion. So I totally grasp why they have been banned. Most cyclists that I see can barely handle a Citi Bike, let alone something that gets them going three or four times the speed.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:33 PM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


The cheater bike with the motor in the seat tube interfacing with the crank has always been really appealing to me and you'd think they would be somewhat inexpensive to retrofit (a few different widths of motor; an external battery that you could hang anywhere; and an assortment of shafts with gear to fit a range of bicycles. They'd probably be limited to the EU 250W or less for several reasons but they shouldn't cost more than a few hundred dollars if they got popular. The perfect thing for making some of the double digit grades I ride more manageable.

GuyZero: "If NYC cyclists have to deal with stuff like this in their "dedicated" bike lanes, honestly I can see why they'd be kind of salty."

I don't know, you'd think regular e-bike traffic whipping down that lane at 25mph would solve the problem.
posted by Mitheral at 12:09 AM on August 22, 2017


Look, can't we all just agree that everyone has someone faster than them out there on the road, and someone slower than them?


Unless you are Chris Froome.


And he's on drugs
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:45 AM on August 22, 2017


If NYC cyclists have to deal with stuff like this in their "dedicated" bike lanes, honestly I can see why they'd be kind of salty.

The Brooklyn bridge is a tourist destination. It's like one block from the manhattan bridge on the BK side and three blocks on the Manhattan side. Take the manhattan bridge and save yourself the grief. Like what are you doing on a Saturday trying to cross the BK bridge and you don't expect a million tourists? Sometimes I just don't understand New Yorkers.
posted by dis_integration at 5:38 AM on August 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


The seat tube motor (cheater) is on sale, but it's not cheap: €2900
posted by ambrosen at 5:38 AM on August 22, 2017


Electric assist bikes are tremendously fun. I've ridden one (a Faraday Porteur)

I got passed by someone riding one of those on the way to work a while back (safely, plenty of room, no problems there.) I didn't get a close look at it, and thought it looked like an IKEA Sladda, which was just worrisome. I'm not all that fast, but getting passed at that speed by something like that would've been unusual. Was I sick? Had I just not noticed it yet? Was something wrong with my bike? Probably it was cancer. For both me and my bike.

Anyway, it was a relief when I caught up with them at the train station and complimented their attractive and functional e-bike.
posted by asperity at 8:56 AM on August 22, 2017 [5 favorites]


ambrosen: "The seat tube motor (cheater) is on sale, but it's not cheap: €2900"

Ya that was what I was talking about. That sort of device will probably be available for much less money going forward. I mean I can buy an 18V 725 in/lb drill with all metal gearing for less than C$500 with battery and charger. I'm not sure how that compares to the specs of Vivax assist because I can't find that information on their site but it's got to be in the ball park if not better. The price on the Vivax just seems out of proportion even accounting for the expensive helical gear set.
posted by Mitheral at 1:31 PM on August 22, 2017


Add me to the contingent of people from Toronto who hate the ones with the little vestigial pedals. They piss me off because they're so obviously built to flout the rules. I want to see them all declared illegal. Grararar.

(I had also heard the DUI thing but as far as I know it's just hearsay)


This is anecdata but, at my work we've had two people with those electric moped ebike things, and both had had their drivers licenses suspended for drinking and driving.
posted by rodlymight at 4:09 PM on August 22, 2017


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