a taxonomy of trolls
August 23, 2017 11:11 AM Subscribe
But the keystone of this vernacular is “cuck.” A shortening of “cuckold,” an old word used to refer to men who allow their partners to sleep with other men (and often find sexual gratification in the humiliation of it), its use has become the sine qua non of alt-right group membership.Tim Squirrell explains the linguistic shibbolets of the far right, as researched by the Alt-Right Open Intelligence Initiative at the University of Amsterdam.
shitlords use shitboleths.
posted by FatherDagon at 11:29 AM on August 23, 2017 [19 favorites]
posted by FatherDagon at 11:29 AM on August 23, 2017 [19 favorites]
The problem with the given definition of "cuck" (which my keyboard autocorrects to "fuck", because I have standards), apart from not understanding the difference between the word "cuckold" and "cuckold porn", is it lacks a grasp on "cuck"'s inherently racist aspect. It's not just that "cuck" implies a cuckold, but rather that it implies the archetypal "cuckold" in cuckold porn - the white man who watches in humiliation as a Black man has sex with his partner. The horror of "cuck", to the morons who use it, is in having "their possessions" "taken" by a person of colour, and more specifically a Black person. It's just about as vile a word as has ever been thought up.
posted by howfar at 11:30 AM on August 23, 2017 [83 favorites]
posted by howfar at 11:30 AM on August 23, 2017 [83 favorites]
Notice how T_D caused the "Eternal Cucktember" of Reddit: before 2016, the slur rose and fell with the school breaks, peaking in the summer months and in December. Not so much afterwards.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:32 AM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by uncleozzy at 11:32 AM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
We've been taking back the term "cuck" on social media since last summer. Obviously we can't change what "cuckold" means but since "cuck" is a slur aimed at certain types of Social Justice minded peeps we have been hijacking it to drain its power.
I even made an image meme about it based on a popular 70s tee shirt because fuck those idiots. We've even been using "cuck" as a term of endearment amongst ourselves.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 11:32 AM on August 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
I even made an image meme about it based on a popular 70s tee shirt because fuck those idiots. We've even been using "cuck" as a term of endearment amongst ourselves.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 11:32 AM on August 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
Well, thanks, I guess. I had been wondering what exactly that meant since I'd been seeing it mentioned in various articles on the alt-right, but I didn't want to type it into a search engine. Now I get the gist of it without even clicking the links. Ugh.
posted by Kriesa at 11:36 AM on August 23, 2017
posted by Kriesa at 11:36 AM on August 23, 2017
It's just about as vile a word as has ever been thought up.
You do have to give them credit for finding a term that is both incredibly racist and incredibly sexist, but still 100% centred on the feelings of white men.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 11:43 AM on August 23, 2017 [149 favorites]
You do have to give them credit for finding a term that is both incredibly racist and incredibly sexist, but still 100% centred on the feelings of white men.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 11:43 AM on August 23, 2017 [149 favorites]
It's not just that "cuck" implies a cuckold, but rather that it implies the archetypal "cuckold" in cuckold porn - the white man who watches in humiliation as a Black man has sex with his partner.
Where are you getting this from? I thought it was short for cuckold, which is enough to get the point across
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 11:44 AM on August 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
Where are you getting this from? I thought it was short for cuckold, which is enough to get the point across
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 11:44 AM on August 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's everywhere. Even that little bird in my wall clock says it once an hour, right to my face.
posted by dr_dank at 11:47 AM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 11:47 AM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
Can't google it at work, but yes: you should not doubt that of all the possible connotations for the word, the one derived from hours/weeks/months on YouPorn is going to be the one that that cohort runs with.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 11:53 AM on August 23, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 11:53 AM on August 23, 2017 [15 favorites]
This was a comprehensive breakout and something that I think about often, another thing that seems common among all groups is the re-appropriation of social justice or news terms and subverting their meaning: Triggers, safe spaces, fake news - all used to initially challenge right wing/conservative ideas and toxic culture, now these are pretty much owned by the right wing and used exclusively for mocking. As discussed here in the past, they've even managed to turn "social justice" into something of a pejorative.
posted by windbox at 11:58 AM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by windbox at 11:58 AM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
Where are you getting this from?
"Cuck" is a genre of porn. This specific genre of porn, in fact.
This term is like the apotheosis of young, white American toxic masculinity. Internet porn, racism, misogyny, in service to fascism.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:01 PM on August 23, 2017 [35 favorites]
"Cuck" is a genre of porn. This specific genre of porn, in fact.
This term is like the apotheosis of young, white American toxic masculinity. Internet porn, racism, misogyny, in service to fascism.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:01 PM on August 23, 2017 [35 favorites]
Look, laying my eggs in other people's nests is a valid breeding strategy and I'm not going to stop.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:10 PM on August 23, 2017 [67 favorites]
posted by Sangermaine at 12:10 PM on August 23, 2017 [67 favorites]
Where are you getting this from? I thought it was short for cuckold, which is enough to get the point across
one of the earliest modern cuck memes was in 2014, when 4channers fake-quoted Louis CK as saying “All white women should try the BBC and fill their wombs with superior PoC seed" and began calling him "cuck king."
The racial tones are obvious if you spend enough time paying attention to these guys' neuroses, but I can't blame anyone for not wanting to do that.
Personally I can't stand the term even when progressives try to take it back in a reclaimed/ironic sense.
posted by Emily's Fist at 12:13 PM on August 23, 2017 [12 favorites]
one of the earliest modern cuck memes was in 2014, when 4channers fake-quoted Louis CK as saying “All white women should try the BBC and fill their wombs with superior PoC seed" and began calling him "cuck king."
The racial tones are obvious if you spend enough time paying attention to these guys' neuroses, but I can't blame anyone for not wanting to do that.
Personally I can't stand the term even when progressives try to take it back in a reclaimed/ironic sense.
posted by Emily's Fist at 12:13 PM on August 23, 2017 [12 favorites]
"Can't google it at work, but yes: you should not doubt that of all the possible connotations for the word, the one derived from hours/weeks/months on YouPorn is going to be the one that that cohort runs with."
Uh, OK, fine, I did a search on YouPorn for "cuck", and can find plenty of evidence that the cuckolder is often black, but also plenty of evidence that this is not a required feature of the genre. I didn't have the patience to collect any statistics.
My browser has a "private browsing" feature but not, alas, my brain.
posted by floppyroofing at 12:14 PM on August 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
Uh, OK, fine, I did a search on YouPorn for "cuck", and can find plenty of evidence that the cuckolder is often black, but also plenty of evidence that this is not a required feature of the genre. I didn't have the patience to collect any statistics.
My browser has a "private browsing" feature but not, alas, my brain.
posted by floppyroofing at 12:14 PM on August 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
I guess I get that something that isn't a defining feature of a genre could still be strongly associated with it. Like, many popular fantasy novels do not include dragons, but you could still say that a lot of fantasy readers are obsessed with dragons.
And that's the last I want to think about that for a while.
posted by floppyroofing at 12:21 PM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
And that's the last I want to think about that for a while.
posted by floppyroofing at 12:21 PM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
Really, white men have been obsessed with black men's sexuality since the very beginning. That's what an awful lot of lynchings were about. The verbiage might be new, but the hatred of women and the fear of black men's supposed sexual prowess goes way, way back.
posted by klanawa at 12:22 PM on August 23, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 12:22 PM on August 23, 2017 [16 favorites]
I think we should be grateful that they keep coming up with terms that you can use to so quickly identify and excommunicate them.
posted by JHarris at 12:28 PM on August 23, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 12:28 PM on August 23, 2017 [10 favorites]
As discussed here in the past, they've even managed to turn "social justice" into something of a pejorative.
The "virtue signaling" thing is particularly noxious. Even if you assume, as they do, that empathy is fictional, and (white, naturally) leftist activists don't really believe in the causes they take up, you're still saying that minority voices advocating for themselves don't matter and that the outcome they're working toward -- racial equality, criminal justice reform, whatever -- is actively undesirable.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:31 PM on August 23, 2017 [19 favorites]
The "virtue signaling" thing is particularly noxious. Even if you assume, as they do, that empathy is fictional, and (white, naturally) leftist activists don't really believe in the causes they take up, you're still saying that minority voices advocating for themselves don't matter and that the outcome they're working toward -- racial equality, criminal justice reform, whatever -- is actively undesirable.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:31 PM on August 23, 2017 [19 favorites]
I think we should be grateful that they keep coming up with terms that you can use to so quickly identify and excommunicate them.
Yep. I've been loving all the Soros conspiracy stuff for this reason. Any time someone invokes his name it allows me to sit back and think "Oh, I see, you're completely fucking stupid!" and stop taking their arguments seriously.
posted by mannequito at 12:37 PM on August 23, 2017 [19 favorites]
Yep. I've been loving all the Soros conspiracy stuff for this reason. Any time someone invokes his name it allows me to sit back and think "Oh, I see, you're completely fucking stupid!" and stop taking their arguments seriously.
posted by mannequito at 12:37 PM on August 23, 2017 [19 favorites]
Previously.
I feel the previous thread did a really good job at dissecting the word, so maybe we can discuss the other implications of the new article? Like, how disparate identities and tribes appear to be congealing? How trolls, gamergators, MRAs, incels, and alt-right band of brothers have somehow found each other against all odds [insert despondent sarcasm]?
posted by kariebookish at 12:39 PM on August 23, 2017 [9 favorites]
I feel the previous thread did a really good job at dissecting the word, so maybe we can discuss the other implications of the new article? Like, how disparate identities and tribes appear to be congealing? How trolls, gamergators, MRAs, incels, and alt-right band of brothers have somehow found each other against all odds [insert despondent sarcasm]?
posted by kariebookish at 12:39 PM on August 23, 2017 [9 favorites]
On top of the obvious racist/sexist meanings, when aimed at conservatives they think are insufficiently right-wing it seems clearly a metaphor for an ineffectual leader who purports to be strong and in control but is actually letting those liberals get what they want behind his back.
posted by straight at 12:40 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by straight at 12:40 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Now seems as good a time as any to add it to my permanently muted words list on twitter.
posted by thecaddy at 12:49 PM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by thecaddy at 12:49 PM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
One social space where I'm seeing this term used quite a bit is in politics, and specifically with many of the political podcasts that I listen to.
Many of podcasters I listen to use the term as a term of derision to insult a politician that they disagree with. I listen to a lot of left-leaning liberal podcasts (Trumpcast, Pod Saves America) and it's usually used in the direction of a Republican/right-leaning individual.
Rather troubling that it's being used so easily in this way. I knew the term was loaded (and I've avoided using it) but I didn't realize how toxic the history surrounding the word was. A good post and a good share.
posted by Fizz at 1:05 PM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
Many of podcasters I listen to use the term as a term of derision to insult a politician that they disagree with. I listen to a lot of left-leaning liberal podcasts (Trumpcast, Pod Saves America) and it's usually used in the direction of a Republican/right-leaning individual.
Rather troubling that it's being used so easily in this way. I knew the term was loaded (and I've avoided using it) but I didn't realize how toxic the history surrounding the word was. A good post and a good share.
posted by Fizz at 1:05 PM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
Even if you assume, as they do, that empathy is fictional, and (white, naturally) leftist activists don't really believe in the causes they take up, you're still saying that minority voices advocating for themselves don't matter and that the outcome they're working toward -- racial equality, criminal justice reform, whatever -- is actively undesirable.
If you believe in a zero-sum worldview, that pretty much follows. Doubly so if you have the social-dominance orientation (as anybody who believes that there is such a thing as an “alpha male” probably does). Then every scrap of human dignity afforded to people who aren't white males is an agonising loss of the position of dominance of those who are.
posted by acb at 1:05 PM on August 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
If you believe in a zero-sum worldview, that pretty much follows. Doubly so if you have the social-dominance orientation (as anybody who believes that there is such a thing as an “alpha male” probably does). Then every scrap of human dignity afforded to people who aren't white males is an agonising loss of the position of dominance of those who are.
posted by acb at 1:05 PM on August 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
God forbid Reddit do something about the_donald like it did about Creepshots, TheFappening, and FatPeopleHate.
posted by edheil at 1:07 PM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by edheil at 1:07 PM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
It goes to show how old and out of touch I am, when I saw "BBC" and thought "British Broadcasting Corporation."
Like, how disparate identities and tribes appear to be congealing? How trolls, gamergators, MRAs, incels, and alt-right band of brothers have somehow found each other against all odds
The gateway drug for neo-Nazi-ism, neo-Confederatism, and other white supremacist ideologies does seem to be various anti-feminist/MRA/Red Pill groups. "I'm not getting the sex I'm entitled to" congeals into a whole jello mold of resentment toward anyone who isn't a right-wing white male.
ACB, you mentioned social dominance - here's an article and here's the Wikipedia. It's a really useful concept to keep in mind when thinking about white supremacists, neo-Nazis, and so on.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:18 PM on August 23, 2017 [24 favorites]
Like, how disparate identities and tribes appear to be congealing? How trolls, gamergators, MRAs, incels, and alt-right band of brothers have somehow found each other against all odds
The gateway drug for neo-Nazi-ism, neo-Confederatism, and other white supremacist ideologies does seem to be various anti-feminist/MRA/Red Pill groups. "I'm not getting the sex I'm entitled to" congeals into a whole jello mold of resentment toward anyone who isn't a right-wing white male.
ACB, you mentioned social dominance - here's an article and here's the Wikipedia. It's a really useful concept to keep in mind when thinking about white supremacists, neo-Nazis, and so on.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:18 PM on August 23, 2017 [24 favorites]
The day the reddit management/owners feel the_donald might affect the site's value is the day they take it down, just as with Creepshots or the pedo subs.
Which is actually kind of heartening, because the pedo stuff was killed when people from Something Awful (I think) put together a file on all the terrible shit that was on reddit at the time and blasted it across the Internet. This brought so much mainstream attention to it that the reddit Powers That Be swooped in and shut them down. So it shows that at least a concerted campaign can bring this awful crap down.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:18 PM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
Which is actually kind of heartening, because the pedo stuff was killed when people from Something Awful (I think) put together a file on all the terrible shit that was on reddit at the time and blasted it across the Internet. This brought so much mainstream attention to it that the reddit Powers That Be swooped in and shut them down. So it shows that at least a concerted campaign can bring this awful crap down.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:18 PM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
Honestly, I am not sure I agree with the "we're taking it back!" stance of using the word in another way. It's a nasty word, and I think using it 'positively' still unfortunately spreads it.
posted by destructive cactus at 1:20 PM on August 23, 2017 [18 favorites]
posted by destructive cactus at 1:20 PM on August 23, 2017 [18 favorites]
I'm not sure a sub-reddit organized around and sometimes encouraged by a sitting president is easily shut down, as opposed to a gang of pedophiles chumming it up and sharing pictures.
posted by Query at 1:25 PM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Query at 1:25 PM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
P.S. Credit where it's due - the concept of Social Dominance Orientation (SDO) was invented by social psychologists Jim Sidanius and Felicia Pratto.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:25 PM on August 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:25 PM on August 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
Many of podcasters I listen to use the term as a term of derision to insult a politician that they disagree with. I listen to a lot of left-leaning liberal podcasts (Trumpcast, Pod Saves America) and it's usually used in the direction of a Republican/right-leaning individual.
Sounds like you need to find some less-shitty podcasts.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:26 PM on August 23, 2017 [29 favorites]
Sounds like you need to find some less-shitty podcasts.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:26 PM on August 23, 2017 [29 favorites]
As for T_D being removed from Reddit, it used to be that vote brigading was the one, true "thou shalt not" rule that the Reddit admins actually cared about. T_D, however, gets to do it with impunity. So, yeah, until shareholders start demanding action on it, the site admins don't give a fuck.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:28 PM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 1:28 PM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
Honestly, I am not sure I agree with the "we're taking it back!" stance of using the word in another way.
Yeah, I don't get that idea at all. Taking it back? To where? While the term has and is meant to have offensive connotations, it's used primarily against other white guys so it isn't the same as a slur in how it furthers direct oppression. White guys don't need to take the term "back" because its offense given is minimal in direct use, I don't feel any harm by being called a cuck, white guys just need to stop using the term period since the more harmful connotation can't be erased by ironic adoption as the greater offense of its implication isn't towards those the term is wielded against.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:34 PM on August 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I don't get that idea at all. Taking it back? To where? While the term has and is meant to have offensive connotations, it's used primarily against other white guys so it isn't the same as a slur in how it furthers direct oppression. White guys don't need to take the term "back" because its offense given is minimal in direct use, I don't feel any harm by being called a cuck, white guys just need to stop using the term period since the more harmful connotation can't be erased by ironic adoption as the greater offense of its implication isn't towards those the term is wielded against.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:34 PM on August 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
Sounds like you need to find some less-shitty podcasts.
posted by tobascodagama at 4:26 PM on August 23 [2 favorites +] [!]
I'm realizing this.
posted by Fizz at 1:36 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by tobascodagama at 4:26 PM on August 23 [2 favorites +] [!]
I'm realizing this.
posted by Fizz at 1:36 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Thing is, these are former White House political operatives and speech writers (Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, Dan Pfeiffer and Tommy Vietor). They worked within the White House under the Obama Administration. I'd like to think that they should be better in how they talk about politics, but just because someone is a democrat, doesn't mean that they are immune from using toxic language.
*sigh*
posted by Fizz at 1:38 PM on August 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
*sigh*
posted by Fizz at 1:38 PM on August 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
The podcaster use of the term is generally lampshading the alt-right use of the term towards other Republicans who are less fascist than they are and how ludicrous that is and highlighting that rampant infighting. It's not just a word that fasicsts use against leftists, it's a word they use against people slightly less fascist than themselves. (Something I will never forgive these assholes for: my libertarian dad using the term "cuckservative" as a self-descriptor in an email to me because he'd just discovered that's the word for non-fascist conservatives and "globalists".)
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:38 PM on August 23, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:38 PM on August 23, 2017 [15 favorites]
The "virtue signaling" thing is particularly noxious
Of all the asinine invented insults I've encountered, "virtue-signalling" is most asinine. As if all communication in a social context isn't to greater or lesser degrees "signalling." As if it isn't simply another name for custom, or decorum, or etiquette. As if wearing dank Pepes and ostentatiously drinking milk isn't a kind of "virtue signalling" of its own. Only someone who had never spent time with real live humans could think the phrase was meaningful, much less an insult.
Like, how disparate identities and tribes appear to be congealing? How trolls, gamergators, MRAs, incels, and alt-right band of brothers have somehow found each other
Which isn't surprising, since they're all motivated by the same grievances and have the same compulsions to display their grievances as sexual fantasies of dominance and submission.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:39 PM on August 23, 2017 [21 favorites]
Of all the asinine invented insults I've encountered, "virtue-signalling" is most asinine. As if all communication in a social context isn't to greater or lesser degrees "signalling." As if it isn't simply another name for custom, or decorum, or etiquette. As if wearing dank Pepes and ostentatiously drinking milk isn't a kind of "virtue signalling" of its own. Only someone who had never spent time with real live humans could think the phrase was meaningful, much less an insult.
Like, how disparate identities and tribes appear to be congealing? How trolls, gamergators, MRAs, incels, and alt-right band of brothers have somehow found each other
Which isn't surprising, since they're all motivated by the same grievances and have the same compulsions to display their grievances as sexual fantasies of dominance and submission.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:39 PM on August 23, 2017 [21 favorites]
I will say that despite how disgusting the word "cuck" is, calling Alex Jones the "yogurt cuck" was the best thing ever.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:43 PM on August 23, 2017
posted by octobersurprise at 1:43 PM on August 23, 2017
It goes to show how old and out of touch I am, when I saw "BBC" and thought "British Broadcasting Corporation."
well, it is the site of "Room 101"
posted by thelonius at 1:47 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
well, it is the site of "Room 101"
posted by thelonius at 1:47 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
So - the premise of the article is that the rise in hate speech is correlating with a rise in power. This seems like they just like to talk sh$$ more When I see them emerge from behind their computers (which they seem to have run back to after Charlottesville) I'll be a little more worried .
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 3:10 PM on August 23, 2017
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 3:10 PM on August 23, 2017
The "virtue signaling" thing is particularly noxious.
This one is just straightforward projection by people who genuinely can't conceive of thinking/doing anything in good faith.
posted by busted_crayons at 3:18 PM on August 23, 2017 [26 favorites]
This one is just straightforward projection by people who genuinely can't conceive of thinking/doing anything in good faith.
posted by busted_crayons at 3:18 PM on August 23, 2017 [26 favorites]
The "virtue signalling" accusation is thrown around by people who cannot imagine that anyone would honestly want to improve the lives of other people in a way that doesn't benefit the speaker directly. Anyone who publicly displays empathy must be seeking acclaim for that, not for whatever cause they claim to support.
It's a fascinating claim, because it includes a contradiction - if everyone were actually selfishly motivated, it would not be considered "virtuous" to be altruistic.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:27 PM on August 23, 2017 [16 favorites]
It's a fascinating claim, because it includes a contradiction - if everyone were actually selfishly motivated, it would not be considered "virtuous" to be altruistic.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:27 PM on August 23, 2017 [16 favorites]
Where are you getting this from? I thought it was short for cuckold, which is enough to get the point across
but also plenty of evidence that this is not a required feature of the genre.
Well, it mostly is [enough], but then why not just say "beta" which largely means the same thing to them. I don't think it is obviously intended in all circumstances, but the racialized aspect is clearly what gives it that je ne sais quoi of vicious condescension and humiliation.
I'm with howfar, though, in wondering about the reliability of a research project which seems to take a porn jargon term that arose within the last 20 years, more or less, as the "old word". It was always a term of derision and humiliation, of course, but the specific porn meaning has a basis in the man's ability to have a partner who is sexually desirable to other men. So this particular subsequent twist back into the original social humiliation as an end point is something that deserves some consideration. I mean, that porn wouldn't exist if it didn't turn men on -- but that doesn't seem to be how the online culture experiences it, rather seeing it from that distant observer's position, the lulz aspect if you will.
anyone would honestly want to improve the lives of other people in a way that doesn't benefit the speaker directly.
Isn't there also a sort of normie/aspie culture thing here? In that the autistic end point is not being able to see outside yourself and this has been up-ended into its own sort of virtue signaling for social economics the way Objectivism does in economics? I imagine I would have to read that Angela Nagle stuff and I don't have the time to get into it.
posted by dhartung at 3:40 PM on August 23, 2017
but also plenty of evidence that this is not a required feature of the genre.
Well, it mostly is [enough], but then why not just say "beta" which largely means the same thing to them. I don't think it is obviously intended in all circumstances, but the racialized aspect is clearly what gives it that je ne sais quoi of vicious condescension and humiliation.
I'm with howfar, though, in wondering about the reliability of a research project which seems to take a porn jargon term that arose within the last 20 years, more or less, as the "old word". It was always a term of derision and humiliation, of course, but the specific porn meaning has a basis in the man's ability to have a partner who is sexually desirable to other men. So this particular subsequent twist back into the original social humiliation as an end point is something that deserves some consideration. I mean, that porn wouldn't exist if it didn't turn men on -- but that doesn't seem to be how the online culture experiences it, rather seeing it from that distant observer's position, the lulz aspect if you will.
anyone would honestly want to improve the lives of other people in a way that doesn't benefit the speaker directly.
Isn't there also a sort of normie/aspie culture thing here? In that the autistic end point is not being able to see outside yourself and this has been up-ended into its own sort of virtue signaling for social economics the way Objectivism does in economics? I imagine I would have to read that Angela Nagle stuff and I don't have the time to get into it.
posted by dhartung at 3:40 PM on August 23, 2017
Of all the asinine invented insults I've encountered, "virtue-signalling" is most asinine. As if all communication in a social context isn't to greater or lesser degrees "signalling." As if it isn't simply another name for custom, or decorum, or etiquette. As if wearing dank Pepes and ostentatiously drinking milk isn't a kind of "virtue signalling" of its own. Only someone who had never spent time with real live humans could think the phrase was meaningful, much less an insult.
I don't think it's asinine, particularly, any more than 'social justice warrior'. It's only offensive as an imputation of bad faith, so if you're speaking in good faith why bother being offended by it? It's never a bad thing to be ready to interrogate your own motives.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:45 PM on August 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
I don't think it's asinine, particularly, any more than 'social justice warrior'. It's only offensive as an imputation of bad faith, so if you're speaking in good faith why bother being offended by it? It's never a bad thing to be ready to interrogate your own motives.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:45 PM on August 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
Having common code words makes it easier to indulge in their favorite hobby of mindlessly repeating talking points.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:51 PM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:51 PM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
In that the autistic end point is not being able to see outside yourself and this has been up-ended into its own sort of virtue signaling for social economics the way Objectivism does in economics?
Plenty of people on the spectrum are just fine about this kind of thing, and plenty of people not on the spectrum will veer down that path when it suits them. It's not about there being an "autistic end point". The idea of virtue signaling existed long before the vocabulary did. Evangelicals have long been coming from a virtually identical perspective of insisting that liberals have secret selfish motives for what look like altruistic programs,.
posted by Sequence at 3:59 PM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
Plenty of people on the spectrum are just fine about this kind of thing, and plenty of people not on the spectrum will veer down that path when it suits them. It's not about there being an "autistic end point". The idea of virtue signaling existed long before the vocabulary did. Evangelicals have long been coming from a virtually identical perspective of insisting that liberals have secret selfish motives for what look like altruistic programs,.
posted by Sequence at 3:59 PM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
Isn't there also a sort of normie/aspie culture thing here?
I don't think so - having autism or Asperger's doesn't automatically make one a bigoted asshole. I would wager that most of the MRA/white supremacist T_D dwellers don't have Asperger's or autism at all. Even, or especially, the self-diagnosed ones.
I'm sure that some of the T_D dwellers are autistic, but not the majority. Many have no jobs, crappy social skills, and a resentful attitude; some others are indistinguishable from "normies" or, indeed, "Chads" in person - nice-looking guys with jobs and social lives and everything.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:00 PM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
I don't think so - having autism or Asperger's doesn't automatically make one a bigoted asshole. I would wager that most of the MRA/white supremacist T_D dwellers don't have Asperger's or autism at all. Even, or especially, the self-diagnosed ones.
I'm sure that some of the T_D dwellers are autistic, but not the majority. Many have no jobs, crappy social skills, and a resentful attitude; some others are indistinguishable from "normies" or, indeed, "Chads" in person - nice-looking guys with jobs and social lives and everything.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:00 PM on August 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
The Newhouses will kick the alt-right subs off Reddit in the not-to-distant future; ditto Facebook, and Alphabet for Blogspot and YouTube. Not nearly enough business for whatever discomfort they feel or flack they'll get. WordPress and Twitter are independent and will have a much harder time giving up the traffic, but will be pushed into it soon enough.
What will be interesting to see is if this neutralizes those voices, or simply magnifies the corporate side of the (alt) right as the content migrates to commercial conservative sites like Breitbart, Daily Caller, Gab, etc and (currently) non-/barely-commercial operations like Unz.com.
If the latter, then there will be an "up the ante" moment -- whether internet infrastructure companies will cut off the independent right-wing sites, whether Alphabet and Apple will keep them off Android or IOS devices, etc.
posted by MattD at 4:36 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
What will be interesting to see is if this neutralizes those voices, or simply magnifies the corporate side of the (alt) right as the content migrates to commercial conservative sites like Breitbart, Daily Caller, Gab, etc and (currently) non-/barely-commercial operations like Unz.com.
If the latter, then there will be an "up the ante" moment -- whether internet infrastructure companies will cut off the independent right-wing sites, whether Alphabet and Apple will keep them off Android or IOS devices, etc.
posted by MattD at 4:36 PM on August 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
having autism or Asperger's doesn't automatically make one a bigoted asshole
Of course not, I've just been aware that the alt-right adopted the term "normie" due to some level of overlap with the aspie community. As I haven't read Nagle's work (nor really been able to follow the podcast controversy) I don't know if she gets into that at all, but the use of the term is somewhat blatant. If there's pushback from the other side I'm also out of the loop on that.
The whole deal with the meme culture is really being unintelligible to those not plugged in constantly so it has a shibboleth aspect, and I've seen how utterly confusing it is for terms like "cuck" or the Pepe cartoon to enter into an otherwise real-world conversation. And of course a jargon usage of "virtue signaling" (outside of a humanities thesis) is utterly alien to the way those outside of the chan-culture experience social interaction that the reaction ranges from fury to bafflement.
posted by dhartung at 5:19 PM on August 23, 2017
Of course not, I've just been aware that the alt-right adopted the term "normie" due to some level of overlap with the aspie community. As I haven't read Nagle's work (nor really been able to follow the podcast controversy) I don't know if she gets into that at all, but the use of the term is somewhat blatant. If there's pushback from the other side I'm also out of the loop on that.
The whole deal with the meme culture is really being unintelligible to those not plugged in constantly so it has a shibboleth aspect, and I've seen how utterly confusing it is for terms like "cuck" or the Pepe cartoon to enter into an otherwise real-world conversation. And of course a jargon usage of "virtue signaling" (outside of a humanities thesis) is utterly alien to the way those outside of the chan-culture experience social interaction that the reaction ranges from fury to bafflement.
posted by dhartung at 5:19 PM on August 23, 2017
I don't think it's asinine, particularly, any more than 'social justice warrior'. It's only offensive as an imputation of bad faith, so if you're speaking in good faith why bother being offended by it? It's never a bad thing to be ready to interrogate your own motives.
The alt-right does seem to use "virtue signaling" as an accusation of hypocrisy. There seems to be a pervasive assumption that liberal and left-wing whites obviously share their racism, and only virtue signal against it because they are afraid of being accused of being racist, or they are inauthentically seeking higher status among their peer group (through presumed "holier than thou" demonstrations against racism). As you say, it is not really an effective insult against someone who truly isn't racist - in that case their behavior is not virtue signaling but authentic.
Same thing with "social justice warrior" - the reason why it's an insult among alt-right circles is because they specifically reject the definition of social justice formulated by the left, and thus express contempt for people who genuinely support it. (In this case, in contrast, there is no apparent accusation of hypocrisy.)
posted by theorique at 5:33 PM on August 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
The alt-right does seem to use "virtue signaling" as an accusation of hypocrisy. There seems to be a pervasive assumption that liberal and left-wing whites obviously share their racism, and only virtue signal against it because they are afraid of being accused of being racist, or they are inauthentically seeking higher status among their peer group (through presumed "holier than thou" demonstrations against racism). As you say, it is not really an effective insult against someone who truly isn't racist - in that case their behavior is not virtue signaling but authentic.
Same thing with "social justice warrior" - the reason why it's an insult among alt-right circles is because they specifically reject the definition of social justice formulated by the left, and thus express contempt for people who genuinely support it. (In this case, in contrast, there is no apparent accusation of hypocrisy.)
posted by theorique at 5:33 PM on August 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
Of course not, I've just been aware that the alt-right adopted the term "normie" due to some level of overlap with the aspie community.
No, no. The alt-right (via their 4chan branch) coopted that term, among other affectations like the "REEEEEEE" thing, because they think autistic people are funny.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:36 PM on August 23, 2017 [13 favorites]
No, no. The alt-right (via their 4chan branch) coopted that term, among other affectations like the "REEEEEEE" thing, because they think autistic people are funny.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:36 PM on August 23, 2017 [13 favorites]
Yeah, let me throw in another vote for "please don't try to [re]claim 'cuck'". It's an awful, gross word, and intentionally taking up its mantle is something the kinds of people who use it wouldn't even recognize as any kind of sick burn, they'd just keep in using it the same awful way they do now.
posted by tocts at 6:57 PM on August 23, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by tocts at 6:57 PM on August 23, 2017 [13 favorites]
The former Obama staffers on Pod Save America are definitely using the word ironically, as a way to make fun of the sexists and racists. I don't think they think they're being sexist and racist themselves.
This is, of course, a well-intentioned mistake. As has often been said here, using stupid words ironically is still bad because 1.) some words can be inherently hurtful regardless of who says it or why, 2.) it contributes to the word's cultural currency when it would be better off forgotten, and 3.) is prone to misinterpretation.
I'm not sure why "cuck" gets used in a joking way by some people on the left who would never think of using other racist language in that fashion. Maybe because it's a neologism, it lacks the visceral punch that leads us to avoid other words? Maybe because unless you're pretty familiar with the underlying ideology, the racist component of the word is opaque? (It should still be obviously sexist to anyone, though.)
anyway yeah don't do this, just never say it, if these 4chan dipshits get a new word in the OED or whatever i'm going to lose my shit
posted by a mirror and an encyclopedia at 7:56 PM on August 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
This is, of course, a well-intentioned mistake. As has often been said here, using stupid words ironically is still bad because 1.) some words can be inherently hurtful regardless of who says it or why, 2.) it contributes to the word's cultural currency when it would be better off forgotten, and 3.) is prone to misinterpretation.
I'm not sure why "cuck" gets used in a joking way by some people on the left who would never think of using other racist language in that fashion. Maybe because it's a neologism, it lacks the visceral punch that leads us to avoid other words? Maybe because unless you're pretty familiar with the underlying ideology, the racist component of the word is opaque? (It should still be obviously sexist to anyone, though.)
anyway yeah don't do this, just never say it, if these 4chan dipshits get a new word in the OED or whatever i'm going to lose my shit
posted by a mirror and an encyclopedia at 7:56 PM on August 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
I love (read:despair) how much thought-effort the centre-Left* wastes in trying to decode, understand, categorising the slurs of the alt-Right, and the amount of agonising over the precisely correct way to counter them.
It's orders of magnitude more effort than they put into choosing them, & by the time there's consensus on the "correct" (in accordance with a broad range of values) way of countering them - which itself is, more often than not, a pointless exercise - they've moved on to something else. At worst, you're encouraging them by giving them the rise they were looking for. At best, you're just left arguing with the dumbest of dumb foot-soldiers who didn't get the memo to move on.
And it's no good patiently explaining to them that, look, their actions and dress and behaviour are themselves "virtue-signalling" to their in-group - they don't care; they can drop that slur & move on. It's no good outing one of them for voting Democrat in the past, or as a 'cuck', or whatever - they've no qualms about (metaphorically) executing one of their own, and there's plenty more where he (and it's always a he) came from. It's definitely no good calling them "Nazis" - they're proud of that; that's why they're wearing swastikas & doing the salute & chanting about 'blood and soil' and loudly sharing Jewish conspiracies. To them, it's not a slur…
You're fighting the battle, but missing the war. By reacting, you're ensuring you're only equipped to fight the last battle. Or even worse: by taking so long to develop a reaction, you're left fighting the battle before last.
This is all stuff old-school anarchists & other Leftist militants learned years ago - at it's heart, it's basic "members & militants" & "continuous warfare" stuff - and it's magnified by the ease of mass-group communication provided by the internet. While the centre-Left is using the width of the 'net to try & reach an optimum consensus about the correct ways to react, the alt-Right is using the 'net's speed to attack.
In that respect it's 1938 - or, if you prefer, 1940 - all over again…
(* You could actually make a good argument that this is a defining characteristic that separates the good old fashioned hard-Left of the past from what passes as the centre-Left of today…)
posted by Pinback at 8:48 PM on August 23, 2017 [11 favorites]
It's orders of magnitude more effort than they put into choosing them, & by the time there's consensus on the "correct" (in accordance with a broad range of values) way of countering them - which itself is, more often than not, a pointless exercise - they've moved on to something else. At worst, you're encouraging them by giving them the rise they were looking for. At best, you're just left arguing with the dumbest of dumb foot-soldiers who didn't get the memo to move on.
And it's no good patiently explaining to them that, look, their actions and dress and behaviour are themselves "virtue-signalling" to their in-group - they don't care; they can drop that slur & move on. It's no good outing one of them for voting Democrat in the past, or as a 'cuck', or whatever - they've no qualms about (metaphorically) executing one of their own, and there's plenty more where he (and it's always a he) came from. It's definitely no good calling them "Nazis" - they're proud of that; that's why they're wearing swastikas & doing the salute & chanting about 'blood and soil' and loudly sharing Jewish conspiracies. To them, it's not a slur…
You're fighting the battle, but missing the war. By reacting, you're ensuring you're only equipped to fight the last battle. Or even worse: by taking so long to develop a reaction, you're left fighting the battle before last.
This is all stuff old-school anarchists & other Leftist militants learned years ago - at it's heart, it's basic "members & militants" & "continuous warfare" stuff - and it's magnified by the ease of mass-group communication provided by the internet. While the centre-Left is using the width of the 'net to try & reach an optimum consensus about the correct ways to react, the alt-Right is using the 'net's speed to attack.
In that respect it's 1938 - or, if you prefer, 1940 - all over again…
(* You could actually make a good argument that this is a defining characteristic that separates the good old fashioned hard-Left of the past from what passes as the centre-Left of today…)
posted by Pinback at 8:48 PM on August 23, 2017 [11 favorites]
I think that and the recent polling that 1 in 10 people think it's acceptable to hold Neo-Nazi views are showing the weakness in the left (or center left?)'s strategy of hollering "racism" at every opportunity, particularly regarding Trump and his fellow travelers. It's not that they are NOT being racist. It's that for a lot of people, that's a bug, not a feature. So when people go "HEY LOOK AT THIS RACIST BEING RACIST HE'S SO TERRIBLE AND RACIST", his audience goes "Oh, thanks for telling me," rather than feeling the shame they are presumably supposed to feel.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 12:07 AM on August 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 12:07 AM on August 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Isn't there also a sort of normie/aspie culture thing here?
I get what you're saying but I don't think it has anything to do with people who are on the autism spectrum. Who are generally as caring or uncaring as anyone else in my experience, autism has little to do with capacity for empathy. I do think there is another, as-yet-unnamed, spectrum of empathy and all these guys and a lot of ultra-conservative types are on the far low end. Some are born there and take so many blows they run out of fucks to give about other people. But the internet troll guys are born on the no-empathy end of the empathy spectrum, imho.
And what is an incel? Never heard that one before.
posted by fshgrl at 12:16 AM on August 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
I get what you're saying but I don't think it has anything to do with people who are on the autism spectrum. Who are generally as caring or uncaring as anyone else in my experience, autism has little to do with capacity for empathy. I do think there is another, as-yet-unnamed, spectrum of empathy and all these guys and a lot of ultra-conservative types are on the far low end. Some are born there and take so many blows they run out of fucks to give about other people. But the internet troll guys are born on the no-empathy end of the empathy spectrum, imho.
And what is an incel? Never heard that one before.
posted by fshgrl at 12:16 AM on August 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
And what is an incel? Never heard that one before.
You'll laugh, but it's 'involuntary celibate'.
Also known as, 'I'm such a tremendous fetid asshole that no one will sleep with me, and some how that's the fault of women/POC/liberals'.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 12:33 AM on August 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
You'll laugh, but it's 'involuntary celibate'.
Also known as, 'I'm such a tremendous fetid asshole that no one will sleep with me, and some how that's the fault of women/POC/liberals'.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 12:33 AM on August 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
Bunch of wankers going parading around going 'cuck cuck cuck' and exactly as brainless as the hens they sound like.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 1:56 AM on August 24, 2017
posted by GallonOfAlan at 1:56 AM on August 24, 2017
showing the weakness in the left (or center left?)'s strategy of hollering "racism" at every opportunity, particularly regarding Trump and his fellow travelers. It's not that they are NOT being racist. It's that for a lot of people, that's a bug, not a feature
Right. So your view is that criticising racists when they are being racist is an ineffective or weak strategy, because other racists don't object to racism. What would be a more effective strategy for countering racism, then? Or are you saying that bothering to counter racism is in itself pointless, and we should be focusing on some other more important political goal, because racism is just an inevitable background feature of political life and no one important minds it? In that case, what should POC do while the left is off achieving these more important goals? Emigrate?
posted by Aravis76 at 2:18 AM on August 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
Right. So your view is that criticising racists when they are being racist is an ineffective or weak strategy, because other racists don't object to racism. What would be a more effective strategy for countering racism, then? Or are you saying that bothering to counter racism is in itself pointless, and we should be focusing on some other more important political goal, because racism is just an inevitable background feature of political life and no one important minds it? In that case, what should POC do while the left is off achieving these more important goals? Emigrate?
posted by Aravis76 at 2:18 AM on August 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
I think that and the recent polling that 1 in 10 people think it's acceptable to hold Neo-Nazi views are showing the weakness in the left (or center left?)'s strategy of hollering "racism" at every opportunity, particularly regarding Trump and his fellow travelers. It's not that they are NOT being racist. It's that for a lot of people, that's a bug, not a feature.
I would be interested in seeing the details of the polling, because there is a pretty significant gap between viewpoints: "I grudgingly acknowledge that Nazis are covered by the First Amendment like everybody else, even if I despise their views" and "yeah, I'm perfectly cool with Nazi ideology and even sympathize with it to some degree". It depends on how the pollsters defined "acceptable", in other words.
One claim I've seen from alt-right sources is that aggressive call-outs of mild or ambiguous cases of racism from the left, tend to drive people toward their side. I think that's part of the story. What seems to be happening is a polarization. Some people take this as an opportunity to acknowledge their own racism, to work to reduce it, and to self-educate; others (i.e. the so-called alt-right) are saying "well, if you're going to call me a Nazi anyway" and coming to terms with being called racist and actually identifying as such.
This polarization is probably reducing the number of people who say things like "I'm not racist but ..." and "I'm color blind - I don't judge people by their ethnicity and I don't even see color". It's forcing people to pick sides.
posted by theorique at 2:38 AM on August 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
I would be interested in seeing the details of the polling, because there is a pretty significant gap between viewpoints: "I grudgingly acknowledge that Nazis are covered by the First Amendment like everybody else, even if I despise their views" and "yeah, I'm perfectly cool with Nazi ideology and even sympathize with it to some degree". It depends on how the pollsters defined "acceptable", in other words.
One claim I've seen from alt-right sources is that aggressive call-outs of mild or ambiguous cases of racism from the left, tend to drive people toward their side. I think that's part of the story. What seems to be happening is a polarization. Some people take this as an opportunity to acknowledge their own racism, to work to reduce it, and to self-educate; others (i.e. the so-called alt-right) are saying "well, if you're going to call me a Nazi anyway" and coming to terms with being called racist and actually identifying as such.
This polarization is probably reducing the number of people who say things like "I'm not racist but ..." and "I'm color blind - I don't judge people by their ethnicity and I don't even see color". It's forcing people to pick sides.
posted by theorique at 2:38 AM on August 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
So your view is that criticising racists when they are being racist is an ineffective or weak strategy, because other racists don't object to racism. What would be a more effective strategy for countering racism, then? Or are you saying that bothering to counter racism is in itself pointless, and we should be focusing on some other more important political goal, because racism is just an inevitable background feature of political life and no one important minds it? In that case, what should POC do while the left is off achieving these more important goals? Emigrate?
I'm not the author of the comment you're responding to, but I favorited it so will hazard a reply.
First, and I mean this in the spirit of debate (not criticism): you're conflating racists with extremists. It's totally understandable to do this, but it changes the calculus of how to handle people when you're dealing with sexists/racists/intolerant dipweeds as opposed to extremists who are using sexism/racism/intolerance as a tool for their extremism.
Bothering to counter racism is a good thing. Bothering to counter extremism is very different, and the sooner we stop conflating -isms with an extreme that uses them as a tool, the better. That in and of itself helps people come up with ways to counter it.
There's no one good way to counter extremism. On a personal level, yeah, very unfortunately, sometimes the only way to handle it is to get the fuck out. Ask anyone here who's been in a toxic relationship or who had horrible, abusive parents. The "alt-right" is relational abusiveness writ on a societal level. The -isms used by extremists are shitty and must be countered because they are smokescreens and tools that allow them to continue unhindered. The fact that abusiveness on personal levels is still seen as something fit for debate – hello rape culture, as just one instance – speaks to the work that needs to be done.
Pointing out that our reactions to extremists' -isms are laughed at by them is a sad, difficult truth. I grew up with evangelicals. They don't give a shit about others' feelings, only their own. It's not for nothing that every major belief system in the world that's held its own for more than a millennium points out that unbridled selfishness/egotism is evil. The most effective thing I've seen against extremism's poison – not a given individual, but the poison itself – is indeed that which they attempt to destroy. Empathy. Relationship. Belief systems also call it love.
Don't. Give. Up. Your. Empathy. Don't stop loving others out of fear or hopelessness. Dare to relate to people and hold up that relating as sacred, because hot damn, we've got millennia of human history on our side saying that's exactly what it is.
posted by fraula at 2:49 AM on August 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
I'm not the author of the comment you're responding to, but I favorited it so will hazard a reply.
First, and I mean this in the spirit of debate (not criticism): you're conflating racists with extremists. It's totally understandable to do this, but it changes the calculus of how to handle people when you're dealing with sexists/racists/intolerant dipweeds as opposed to extremists who are using sexism/racism/intolerance as a tool for their extremism.
Bothering to counter racism is a good thing. Bothering to counter extremism is very different, and the sooner we stop conflating -isms with an extreme that uses them as a tool, the better. That in and of itself helps people come up with ways to counter it.
There's no one good way to counter extremism. On a personal level, yeah, very unfortunately, sometimes the only way to handle it is to get the fuck out. Ask anyone here who's been in a toxic relationship or who had horrible, abusive parents. The "alt-right" is relational abusiveness writ on a societal level. The -isms used by extremists are shitty and must be countered because they are smokescreens and tools that allow them to continue unhindered. The fact that abusiveness on personal levels is still seen as something fit for debate – hello rape culture, as just one instance – speaks to the work that needs to be done.
Pointing out that our reactions to extremists' -isms are laughed at by them is a sad, difficult truth. I grew up with evangelicals. They don't give a shit about others' feelings, only their own. It's not for nothing that every major belief system in the world that's held its own for more than a millennium points out that unbridled selfishness/egotism is evil. The most effective thing I've seen against extremism's poison – not a given individual, but the poison itself – is indeed that which they attempt to destroy. Empathy. Relationship. Belief systems also call it love.
Don't. Give. Up. Your. Empathy. Don't stop loving others out of fear or hopelessness. Dare to relate to people and hold up that relating as sacred, because hot damn, we've got millennia of human history on our side saying that's exactly what it is.
posted by fraula at 2:49 AM on August 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
1/10 is way below even the crazification factor, so I'm not sure what that statistic is supposed to prove.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:28 AM on August 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 5:28 AM on August 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
Maybe because unless you're pretty familiar with the underlying ideology, the racist component of the word is opaque? (It should still be obviously sexist to anyone, though.)
I could figure out the sexist meaning of the word, but you are right, I did not know the racist component. I don't watch porn, I don't frequent subreddits where the word might be used - let's just say I'm boring and uncool and out of touch.
You can't assume that everyone's all hip with the latest slang, whether the term is derogatory or not.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 5:28 AM on August 24, 2017
I could figure out the sexist meaning of the word, but you are right, I did not know the racist component. I don't watch porn, I don't frequent subreddits where the word might be used - let's just say I'm boring and uncool and out of touch.
You can't assume that everyone's all hip with the latest slang, whether the term is derogatory or not.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 5:28 AM on August 24, 2017
Why is it not called alt-white? That's what it is, isn't it?
Or are we all still playing along that it's a political movement?
posted by lon_star at 8:25 AM on August 24, 2017
Or are we all still playing along that it's a political movement?
posted by lon_star at 8:25 AM on August 24, 2017
I just call them fascists.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:25 AM on August 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:25 AM on August 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
The former Obama staffers on Pod Save America are definitely using the word ironically, as a way to make fun of the sexists and racists. I don't think they think they're being sexist and racist themselves.
This is, of course, a well-intentioned mistake.
I don't see myself unfollowing their podcasts as a result of this, but it does make me wince. I wince in a similar fashion whenever I hear someone use the word “gyp” in casual conversation. I always mention why that word is not acceptable and why people should make a conscientious effort to remove this from their lexicon.
posted by Fizz at 10:19 AM on August 24, 2017
This is, of course, a well-intentioned mistake.
I don't see myself unfollowing their podcasts as a result of this, but it does make me wince. I wince in a similar fashion whenever I hear someone use the word “gyp” in casual conversation. I always mention why that word is not acceptable and why people should make a conscientious effort to remove this from their lexicon.
posted by Fizz at 10:19 AM on August 24, 2017
I might be too late to the party, but I heard this story from PRI back in December: https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-12-14/what-cuck
posted by Snowishberlin at 10:02 AM on August 25, 2017
posted by Snowishberlin at 10:02 AM on August 25, 2017
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posted by destructive cactus at 11:22 AM on August 23, 2017 [3 favorites]