There's No Such Thing as a Good Dog

September 1, 2017 3:10 PM

Wes Siler, Outside magazine's lifestyle columnist, writes about what it takes to be a good owner:

People love to tell me how lucky I am to have a good dog like Wiley. But they’re dead wrong—there was no luck involved. Wiley’s good behavior and good temperament are products of four years of hard work, nothing else. The more people who understand this, the more people there will be who have "good" dogs too.

posted by Johnny Wallflower (32 comments total)

poor brent
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:13 PM on September 1, 2017 [14 favorites]

Good behavior is training. Good temperament is innate.
posted by biscotti at 3:17 PM on September 1, 2017 [19 favorites]

As a longtime dog owner who's had both docile dogs and somewhat crazy and neurotic dogs, I really believe that the idea that "there's no such thing as a good dog, only a good dog owner" is a pleasant myth that hard-working owners with well-behaved pups like to tell themselves.

It's absolutely true that no dog will be consistently well-behaved without good training and education. Working with a dog regularly is the only way to make sure that it will live up to its potential and be as well-behaved as it can be. And this article is full of great advice for working with dogs, which is an essential thing for all dog owners, especially dog owners with dogs that might have some troubles.

But: dogs are diverse and multifarious creatures. They are different. They are born different. They are not entirely a product of the nurture you give them; and even the nurture they receive is not entirely under your control. Many, many dogs just happen to have a calm temperament - I've met people who never trained their dog for a moment, and yet they were lucky enough to get by that way because that was just what kind of dog they had. I've also met people who've worked very hard with their dogs just to get to a point where they can leave the house, and still spent a lot of time worrying that something awful might happen because their dogs are still unpredictable. (That's been me sometimes.)

I think it's great to encourage people to work with their dogs as much as possible, but I also think it's important to note that some people who have misbehaved dogs - like the woman the author mentions with a dog that she apologized for - might be doing the best they can.
posted by koeselitz at 3:18 PM on September 1, 2017 [74 favorites]

I see your well reasoned article and raise you my doggo, who in spite of me is indeed a good boy...
posted by zeoslap at 3:18 PM on September 1, 2017 [12 favorites]

(Well, it's also not true that "there's no such thing as a good dog" because – really – the fact is that there's no such thing as a bad dog.)
posted by koeselitz at 3:24 PM on September 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

substitute kids for dogs, and boy this would burn through the mommybloggersphere with the intensity of Mrs. O'Leary's cow.
posted by k5.user at 3:42 PM on September 1, 2017 [21 favorites]

This is why I have cats. It's so much easier to just let them train me.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 3:45 PM on September 1, 2017 [44 favorites]

Yep, this reminds me of an article I read by a mother who congratulated herself on what a great parent she was because her baby slept all the way through the night pretty much from day one. Those other mothers were clueless and could learn a thing or two from her! Then she had child number two, whereupon this kid was up around the clock and she discovered that she wasn't the perfect baby whisperer after all, she just got lucky with her first baby. People love to tell themselves that their good fortune is all due to their own cleverness, otherwise they'd have to admit that we can't control everything and that's terrifying.
posted by Jubey at 3:52 PM on September 1, 2017 [33 favorites]

I'm sure my dog would be a better dog if she got to exercise 180 minutes a day, but I do prefer her predecessor who was an exceptionally well behaved dog regardless.
posted by deludingmyself at 4:04 PM on September 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

What if you rescue an adult dog, or at least one older than 20 weeks? I’d argue that doing so is both noble and a great way to get a dog that’ll require less time and effort.

Ahhahahahahahaha! This person clearly does not rescue dogs.

"Just" get a professional trainer and all of your rescue dog's socialization problems will be whisked away! "Just" take your hyper dog on two 90 minutes hikes a day! That's a reasonable goal, right?

Christ, what an asshole.

(I've been working with and training rescued dogs since 2011. Like a puppy from a breeder, they each have their own personality/temperament, but unlike a puppy, they usually have an unknown background of experiences, sometimes spanning many years. I've worked very hard with all of the dogs we've had in the home, as well as employing professional trainers, and each dog has been some combination of wonderful and totally annoying in a different way. Some of the good behavior, but not all, was down to me, and who knows, possibly some of annoying behavior too. I also respected the ones that just weren't ready to be out in public all the time, or be at kids' barbeques or whatever. )
posted by Squeak Attack at 4:11 PM on September 1, 2017 [15 favorites]

Oh man, I work with dogs, and most of the dog trainers I know have some of the worst behaved dogs because it seems like generally dog trainers fall for the hopeless cases. Also, having spent years around dog trainers (note: I am not a trainer), there are indeed dogs that are just hopelessly dumb (but still so adorable) and will never quite "get it." And there are indeed dogs that can't have certain behavior traits trained out of them.

Certain breeds have certain temperaments just in general, and so yes, sometimes you can "get lucky" by realizing that a certain breed will better fit your lifestyle, and therefore it's easier to tolerate and work with them. I don't know if I missed it, but I didn't see him mention Wiley's breed -- based on the photos it looks like a Shepherd/Cattle Dog mix, which seems like a fairly trainable dog that would also be happy and easy-going, provided it doesn't have some of the standard Shepherd neuroses. How many dogs has he had before? Were they all this "good?" Because I want to see what he'll write when he selects his next dog. (Also, Shiba Inus are moody little suckers.)

I had to laugh at his "if you can't do it, get a professional!" Because while trainers are indeed pretty awesome, professional dog trainers aren't miracle workers -- sometimes dogs just won't be trained, which is something a lot of pet parents can't understand, especially if they have a difficult dog. It takes a lot of patience and acceptance that sometimes your dog just can't do the "normal doggy" stuff you were hoping that dog could do. Maybe they're neurotic, maybe they have certain fears, or maybe they're just stubborn. Every dog has its own personality, and being a pet parent means dealing with whatever personality that comes with the dog. Dog aggression, especially, is super hard to train out of dog because a lot of times it's not something that can always be fixed with patience and treats, but something more akin to dog psychotherapy.

Which meant I kinda bristled (hackles raised! heh...) at his first story because WTF you just saw this lady once and she was probably like "oh crap, my dog isn't on a leash, I gotta make sure he doesn't try to attack this strange dog walking our way." Yet you make an entire value judgement on her effort to make sure her dog won't attack yours just because you think there's no reason every dog shouldn't be exactly like yours? I mean, how does he know the dog was "confused?" Also if the lady said her dog can be aggressive, why the hell would you let your dog "saunter" over and sniff the other dog? Like... "yeah, sure, let's just tempt fate." WTF.

Yeah, good job for selecting a breed of dog that perfectly fits your lifestyle and that you can devote the long hours required to give the dog a solid foundation of training. But it seems uncool but hate on others who just don't want their pet to tear the throat out of your pet.
posted by paisley sheep at 4:11 PM on September 1, 2017 [15 favorites]

Ha, jinx with Squeak Attack about thinking this guy is an asshole.
posted by paisley sheep at 4:15 PM on September 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

A big reason Wiley is calm around other dogs, kids, loud motorcycles, gunfire, parties, and you name it is because I put a lot of effort into exposing him to those things during the critical first few weeks after he came home.

Not everyone has the ability to train their dog like this in the first few months of its life. Some adopt older dogs; some don't have time/resources/knowledge to expose 8-20 week old puppies to lots of things that can make dogs nervous.

For dogs that haven't been traumatized, even older ones can learn basic politeness - things like walk without pulling, put up with polite touches from strangers, stay put on command. But apart from those, there's no guarantee that a particular dog is going to be able to learn any particular set of behaviors.

Including "sit." I have a friend who has greyhounds, and works with greyhound rescues. They're very sweet, very friendly... and smart like oatmeal. He spent six months trying to teach one of them "sit;" I saw some of the hilarious results. Dog ignored the word entirely, and various nudges at its backside result in the dog turning around with an expression like, "why are you touching me? ... Wait, is there food here? Are you pointing me at food?" *tail starts wagging*
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:44 PM on September 1, 2017 [23 favorites]

Also want to add that one of my trainer friends that wanted to get a new dog actually spent a lot of time agonizing over what breed to get, since she wanted a pretty "low-maintenance" pup that didn't make her feel like she had to work while she was at home. Which is why I'm still like "cool story bro, but you still got a good dog."

(Spoiler alert: she ended up getting a Boston Terrier from another trainer friend who could no longer foster him. He's adorable and hilarious and is endlessly excited and makes agonized gremlin-warbles when he's made to "sit" because why sit when you can run?)
posted by paisley sheep at 4:57 PM on September 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Oh, I can't wait until this guy has kids to knock some of that smugness from his attitude.

Karma's a bitch.
posted by she's not there at 5:39 PM on September 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

Wouldn't count on that making a difference with this guy. Some people can't be trained.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:51 PM on September 1, 2017 [22 favorites]

I used to believe this too. Not anymore, really.

My friend has a dog that's extremely high-energy, nippy, neurotic. He's a good dog, but he has issues. And he's probably never going to not have issues.

The thing is, my friend is an extremely conscientious owner. She puts in so much love and work. It's not her fault that he has issues. He'd be a lot worse without that love and work though.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:03 PM on September 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

People are always telling me how "good" my dog is. She's not particularly, but she has learned it lulls them into a false sense if security and makes it easier to steal their stuff. Suckers.
posted by fshgrl at 6:16 PM on September 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

Including "sit." I have a friend who has greyhounds, and works with greyhound rescues. They're very sweet, very friendly... and smart like oatmeal.

Yep, and on the other half of that coin, greyhounds are as a rule the sweetest calmest dogs. I don't have to (and would never want to) take my greyhound out for 3 hours of walks daily and am thrilled to find a breed that is even lazier than I am.

I take very little credit for how well-behaved my dog is (in the important ways - sure he can't sit or shake on command, but he knows "go lay down" and he knows the difference between "come here" and "no/stop whatever you're doing" and he doesn't jump on people or growl at them). He honestly was born this way and aside from some gentle guidance and kind treatment I haven't done much to shape that.

I always say greyhounds are dogs on Easy Mode and that's why they are my breed of choice.
posted by misskaz at 7:08 PM on September 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

Including "sit." I have a friend who has greyhounds, and works with greyhound rescues. They're very sweet, very friendly... and smart like oatmeal. He spent six months trying to teach one of them "sit;" I saw some of the hilarious results. Dog ignored the word entirely, and various nudges at its backside result in the dog turning around with an expression like, "why are you touching me? ... Wait, is there food here? Are you pointing me at food?" *tail starts wagging*
posted by ErisLordFreedom

This reluctance may stem from discomfort while sitting. Many greyhounds, especially retired racers, have such... um, tightly muscled derrières that they can't sit comfortably. When I went through Canine Good Citizen certification with my wee beastie, the trainer was very clear that the greyhound in our class could opt to lie down for the test elements that required a sit.

Obvs: I with my derrière were so taut!

Also maybe relevant, Bront. I have a bulletproof, super-chill hound dog who works with special-needs kids as a classroom therapy dog. I ALSO have a small, tightly-wound, highly opinionated, super smart pain in the ass Wee Beastie who squeaked through Canine Good Citizen testing by gaming the evaluator. When Bulletproof Hound got certified by our therapy dog association, the evaluator asked if I have another dog who might be suitable for this work. I laughed and said, "Well, I have another dog, but..."

Some of it's the owner, but a lot of it is the dog.
posted by workerant at 7:29 PM on September 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

We adopted an adult dog of unknown history. We took her to weekly training classes at the Humane Society, hired a trainer to teach us, trained & practiced de escalating for more than 30 minutes a day, exercised her every day, and were starting to muzzle train her since she came to us extremely 'reactive'. One day while I was recall training her on a long leash a neighbor encouraged his dog to say hi to her. I yelled that she is not friendly, but it was too late, she attacked the little poodle when he came over to sniff, breakinga rib and puncturing his lung. We had to give our dog back to the rescue. I guess we're bad people.

I understand the appeal of this article: he DOES sound like a great dog owner, but one who's also had the luck to get a dog with a not too difficult temperament, and the privilege and access to turn dog training into his hobby.

Sir, consider reframing your sound dog advice with a little less unexamined righteousness.
posted by latkes at 9:22 PM on September 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

My friend has a little chi-terrier who is the most hustlingest dog you will ever meet--he was surviving on the street when he was all of six pounds of attitude and toenails. But there is basically room for one command at a time in his brain. "Sit" is it. The funny thing is that we will practice various commands with his brother and, since little man can't let any treats or attention be given out without annexing his share, he insists on participating even though he has no idea what to do and just stares at you. While his brother does the trick and then waits impatiently for you to decide that little man isn't going to do it this time, either, and give them both their treats.

He did, briefly, learn "touch" while we were teaching his brother, but that's because, in his head, it was a race for the treat.

No trainer in the world is going to increase this little guy's cognitive capacity. But we love him anyway.
posted by praemunire at 9:55 PM on September 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Wowwww, yeah that first story he tells about the woman with the aggressive dog, that is super obnoxious and irresponsible of him. Professional dog trainers will tell you that if your dog is reactive, the first step is to do as much as you can to minimize its exposure to the thing that makes it react. So pulling a dog into a yard to keep it from snapping at another dog is the decent thing to do, and allowing your dog to "saunter" into that dog's space just makes you a total shithead.
posted by lunasol at 11:13 PM on September 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Though I am definitely biased because something similar happened to me the other day. I was walking my dog and saw another person walking their dog towards us. My dog isn't aggressive but he will sometimes bark a lot at other dogs on the street, which I am working on with him, and I have indeed found the best way to deal with it for now is to distract him and keep him away from that stimulus. So I walked him into a nearby parking lot. The other lady put her dog into a sit at the entrance to the freaking parking lot. Where I'd have no choice but to walk my dog right by her dog. Once she realized I was waiting for her to keep moving, she started yelling a lecture to me about how I needed to properly train my dog - who had not even begun barking at that point. Of course, then her dog started lunging, mine started barking, and the lady continued to stand there, blocking my way, lecture-yelling at me about dog training. It was one of the more bizarre things I've ever experienced. I finally had to beg her to keep walking.
posted by lunasol at 11:23 PM on September 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

She was totally right, though. Had your dog been properly trained, he would have flipped her off. You might want to work on that.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:58 AM on September 2, 2017 [13 favorites]

"What if you rescue an adult dog, or at least one older than 20 weeks? I’d argue that doing so is both noble and a great way to get a dog that’ll require less time and effort."

Yeeeeeeah. Might want to tell that to my rescue hound, who came to me at age 2 years after being abandoned on the streets. She was completely unsocialised, abused, fearful, not toilet-trained, unspayed, unvaccinated, and with a septic tail requiring amputation.

Any idea how much 'less time and effort' is required to create a manageable dog out of that mess? Compared to your healthy little puppy with no bad habits?

I mean, really. This guy is a smug asshole.
posted by Salamander at 2:36 AM on September 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

Dogsplaining.
posted by roolya_boolya at 3:19 AM on September 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

Calm, confident and self-congratulatory. I assume Wiley is not a rescue dog. The idea that breed and early trauma would not matter in temperament is alpha dumb.
posted by OrderOctopoda at 5:20 AM on September 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

I am totes favouriting this because of all the comments saying the opposite of the article, because that is what was running through my head as I read it.
posted by Fence at 6:49 AM on September 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

And, of course, the way you train and socialize a dog is to, like, go around walking them in public. It doesn't happen instantaneously.

My younger dog is very high energy, somewhat reactive, and, when we got her, a big misandrist. She just didn't trust men. So I'm out walking her within a couple of days of bringing her home, and these three guys were coming toward us jogging, so we cross the street. Then they crossed the street. So we crossed the street again, and THEY CROSSED THE STREET AGAIN. They had to have been doing it on purpose.

Anyway, these three guys started to get much too close much too fast, so my dog flipped out, growling and barking. They acted all scandalized, but I was able to tamp down my apology reflex, and I told them I agreed with my dog and they were the ones misbehaving, so they sputtered back to the other side of the street where they belonged. Fuckers.

Fortunately, none of the men I willingly associate with are raging assholes, and our older dog is just a saint and an ideal role model; so she's not the man hater she was back then, but she's still reactive, because it's part of her personality. She's built up tolerances and has picked up coping tools, and she's a truly good dog. But she's still not a pushover, and if someone acts like those guys acted that day, I'll give her a cookie for telling them to fuck off.

But also, you know what kind of person often has a "bad dog"? People who work with dogs. Trainers, behaviorists, rescuers. People who have the most experience working with dogs and see a lot of them coming through. They'll sometimes get dogs in that really can't be fully socialized and need to be contained and kept in a controlled environment to some extent for the rest of their lives. They will often keep those dogs because they have the skills and the tools necessary to do that and they still want to give the dogs a chance at a happy life.

How did this guy merit a preachy article in a well known publication? There's no indication he's worked with more than a handful of dogs, ever. He's just a smug, and yeah, lucky amateur.
posted by ernielundquist at 7:46 AM on September 2, 2017 [10 favorites]

Came here for some greyhound love, and was not disappointed. Greyhounds are the best. Not the sharpest tacks in the box, as noted above, but good dogs. Adopt a retired racer today!
posted by snwod at 6:08 PM on September 2, 2017 [5 favorites]

Came for MeFite's personal dog stories, was not disappointed. A++ would read dog-related comments again.
posted by harriet vane at 7:56 AM on September 4, 2017 [5 favorites]