HQ2 Coming to a Town Near You
September 7, 2017 8:40 AM Subscribe
Amazon has announced plans for a second headquarters in North America.
Their request for proposals indicates this will be a USD $5 billion dollar project hiring up to 50,000 full-time white collar employees. 500,000 square feet of office space is needed, and may expand up to 8 million square feet of office space beyond 2027.
But hurry, all you mayors out there and fire up your TIF engines! The proposals are due October 19th.
Their request for proposals indicates this will be a USD $5 billion dollar project hiring up to 50,000 full-time white collar employees. 500,000 square feet of office space is needed, and may expand up to 8 million square feet of office space beyond 2027.
But hurry, all you mayors out there and fire up your TIF engines! The proposals are due October 19th.
Is this going to be like Foundation, where the old center languishes while the new center thrives, until it turns out that the old center is really where things were happening all along?
posted by ubiquity at 8:48 AM on September 7, 2017 [26 favorites]
posted by ubiquity at 8:48 AM on September 7, 2017 [26 favorites]
may expand up to 8 million square feet of office space beyond 2027.
For comparison, the Pentagon is 6.6 million.
posted by Etrigan at 8:50 AM on September 7, 2017 [11 favorites]
For comparison, the Pentagon is 6.6 million.
posted by Etrigan at 8:50 AM on September 7, 2017 [11 favorites]
From a socially responsible and also purely economic standpoint, the Detroit/Flint metro area seems like a perfect match for this.
I hope that someone there is able to manage to navigate the bureaucracy to propose this.
posted by anastasiav at 8:51 AM on September 7, 2017 [30 favorites]
I hope that someone there is able to manage to navigate the bureaucracy to propose this.
posted by anastasiav at 8:51 AM on September 7, 2017 [30 favorites]
All you have to do to get an Amazon HQ in your town is agree to sacrifice all your first-born children. Why are you hesitant to do that, towns? Don't you value jobs?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:52 AM on September 7, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:52 AM on September 7, 2017 [16 favorites]
Amazon employees on average only work there for a year and a half before dropping out, so they need somewhere appealing so they have a constant source of replacement employees. For Bay Area companies that second apealling location is Seattle, for Amazon I really don't know where it is. Is it going to be out in the middle of nowhere where there's no place to jump ship to? That seems like a huge negative for potential recruits. Is it going to be somewhere already established? Then it;s going to be Bay Area or Seattle expensive already.
Also, despite the short lived tenure of most employees what Amazon *really* wants to attract is lifers who will actually stick it out there. Sudden uprootings seem like a sure way to get rid of those lifers.
posted by Artw at 8:54 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also, despite the short lived tenure of most employees what Amazon *really* wants to attract is lifers who will actually stick it out there. Sudden uprootings seem like a sure way to get rid of those lifers.
posted by Artw at 8:54 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Amazon has announced plans for a second headquarters in North America.
Want it Friday, September 8? Order it in the next 55 minutes and choose One-Day Monopoly and Economic Disruption at checkout. Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available.
posted by Fizz at 8:54 AM on September 7, 2017 [70 favorites]
Want it Friday, September 8? Order it in the next 55 minutes and choose One-Day Monopoly and Economic Disruption at checkout. Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available.
posted by Fizz at 8:54 AM on September 7, 2017 [70 favorites]
To protect against attacks and also tax liabilities, the office should be made up of 50000 self driving cubicles that move smoothly round the country's roads in an algorithmically-perfected unpredictable swarm.
posted by dng at 8:54 AM on September 7, 2017 [45 favorites]
posted by dng at 8:54 AM on September 7, 2017 [45 favorites]
So this is a way to ask the cities to race to the bottom for them without all the messy hustling and wrangling? Sounds about right for Amazon.
posted by kokaku at 8:55 AM on September 7, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 8:55 AM on September 7, 2017 [9 favorites]
Except, well, i just can't see them attracting the employees the want in Libertarian Gulch. Not unless they go after people who want to live in a hermetically sealed bubble, which meets the stereotype but not really the actuality of most Amazon employees.
posted by Artw at 8:57 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 8:57 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Amazon employees on average only work there for a year and a half before dropping out, so they need somewhere appealing so they have a constant source of replacement employees.
This was my thinking as well. I'm continually approached by Amazon recruiters who don't listen when they say relocation to Seattle or Cupertino is mandatory and my reply is that I'm not moving.
While everyone else is reacting with "oh, this is AMZN jumping on the Foxconn TIF bandwagon" I also believe there's a secondary goal here to pressure wages downward at HQ1.
A user on HN did the math and found total comp was $25.7 Billion over 50,000 employees. That's $500K/employee on average including high-comp executives.
Don't like your pay? We'll just shift your headcount to HQ2 where they're making 40% of what you're getting.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:03 AM on September 7, 2017 [7 favorites]
This was my thinking as well. I'm continually approached by Amazon recruiters who don't listen when they say relocation to Seattle or Cupertino is mandatory and my reply is that I'm not moving.
While everyone else is reacting with "oh, this is AMZN jumping on the Foxconn TIF bandwagon" I also believe there's a secondary goal here to pressure wages downward at HQ1.
A user on HN did the math and found total comp was $25.7 Billion over 50,000 employees. That's $500K/employee on average including high-comp executives.
Don't like your pay? We'll just shift your headcount to HQ2 where they're making 40% of what you're getting.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:03 AM on September 7, 2017 [7 favorites]
Somewhere cheaper in the Midwest would seem to make sense. Chicago or Columbus or Kansas City or Indy. The issue would be moving or recruiting talent sufficient for their churn.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:12 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by leotrotsky at 9:12 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I'd love to be wrong, but I don't see this going to any cities that don't already have at least a moderate tech presence. Part of the appeal of going to work for a company in a place like Seattle or the Bay Area, is that there are enough other jobs already there to give you a backup plan. If Amazon moves into a city without much other tech, I think they'll find it hard to recruit there.
I have personal experience with this, as I just relocated to Seattle from a small city in the Southwest. Overall I liked my old home better, but my job was starting to feel just a little bit precarious -- and there was nowhere else to work in that location. Long term security in a field with short tenures comes from living where there are lots of options.
As for Amazon's new HQ, my money is on somewhere like Boston or the Research Triangle -- plenty of other tech jobs already there, but where they can move in and be a dominant force within a few years.
posted by fencerjimmy at 9:13 AM on September 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
I have personal experience with this, as I just relocated to Seattle from a small city in the Southwest. Overall I liked my old home better, but my job was starting to feel just a little bit precarious -- and there was nowhere else to work in that location. Long term security in a field with short tenures comes from living where there are lots of options.
As for Amazon's new HQ, my money is on somewhere like Boston or the Research Triangle -- plenty of other tech jobs already there, but where they can move in and be a dominant force within a few years.
posted by fencerjimmy at 9:13 AM on September 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
Upstate NY! Rah rah!
posted by Melismata at 9:13 AM on September 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 9:13 AM on September 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
The fact that they are saying "North America" rather than "America" is making me feel ill. The new Canadian fed gov & my city gov have been making a big show of being tech industry friendly. (Please don't let it be here. Please don't let it be here)
posted by 100kb at 9:16 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by 100kb at 9:16 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Part of the appeal of going to work for a company in a place like Seattle or the Bay Area, is that there are enough other jobs already there to give you a backup plan.
Very good point. That pretty much knocks out places like Chicago and Indy.
My money is on Austin Texas. Everyone seems to have forgotten that Apple has 1.25 million sqft of office already up and running there.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:16 AM on September 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
Very good point. That pretty much knocks out places like Chicago and Indy.
My money is on Austin Texas. Everyone seems to have forgotten that Apple has 1.25 million sqft of office already up and running there.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:16 AM on September 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's either Austin or Dallas. Fuck me.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:17 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:17 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
I could see Austin working, yeah. Liberal enclave in a red state, best of both worlds as far as they are concerned.
posted by Artw at 9:19 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:19 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
This to me feels more like a Request for Bids/Bribes to build out.
As for where to build out, my recommendation is somewhere that's not prone to natural disasters, like earthquakes, forest fires, tsunami, floods and rising sea levels; and unnatural disasters, like shortages in affordable housing and decent commutes.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:20 AM on September 7, 2017
As for where to build out, my recommendation is somewhere that's not prone to natural disasters, like earthquakes, forest fires, tsunami, floods and rising sea levels; and unnatural disasters, like shortages in affordable housing and decent commutes.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:20 AM on September 7, 2017
It's not _that_ liberal. It's more a place for overprivileged, overpaid youth to get wasted after work.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:20 AM on September 7, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:20 AM on September 7, 2017 [9 favorites]
If Amazon moves into a city without much other tech, I think they'll find it hard to recruit there.
On the other hand, if they pick a place with a good quality of life, good commute, good schools, and relatively inexpensive housing, a lot of existing employees will volunteer. I'm a Seattle native and I love it here, but I would jump at the chance to go somewhere better for my family. This commute is killing me and the "school problem" is a real source of anxiety as we have two very young children.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:21 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, if they pick a place with a good quality of life, good commute, good schools, and relatively inexpensive housing, a lot of existing employees will volunteer. I'm a Seattle native and I love it here, but I would jump at the chance to go somewhere better for my family. This commute is killing me and the "school problem" is a real source of anxiety as we have two very young children.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:21 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also you need a good job market for spouses and partners who don't work for Amazon.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:21 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:21 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
One of the requirements is easy access to public transportation on site: "Direct access to rail, train, subway/metro, bus routes." This rules out a lot of Midwestern places, even those who are pushing BRT for their transit solutions.
I predict it will go somewhere where light or heavy rail exists, and where said rail system connects to the airport.
posted by stannate at 9:23 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
I predict it will go somewhere where light or heavy rail exists, and where said rail system connects to the airport.
posted by stannate at 9:23 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Of course, in true Amazon fashion they'll probably just go for whoever gives the most tax breaks, and it will turn out to be in a swamp or something...
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:23 AM on September 7, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:23 AM on September 7, 2017 [7 favorites]
It's not _that_ liberal. It's more a place for overprivileged, overpaid youth to get wasted after work.
That's exactly the kind of liberal they like.
posted by Artw at 9:24 AM on September 7, 2017 [7 favorites]
That's exactly the kind of liberal they like.
posted by Artw at 9:24 AM on September 7, 2017 [7 favorites]
The requirements seem to ask for mass transit, which pretty much knocks out every city in the country except for DC, NYC, and Chicago.Boston, maybe?
I'm thinking it's going to be in Canada, although Austin seems like a good bet.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:27 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
My bet is on Toronto. They already have about 1500 employees there, and there's an obvious need to diversify away from dependence on the broken US immigration system. Costs are high but still lower than Seattle. They could save a bit by going to Waterloo.
posted by miyabo at 9:27 AM on September 7, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by miyabo at 9:27 AM on September 7, 2017 [12 favorites]
I vote for Newark, NJ. Audible is already based there, so they have a preexisting relationship with the city. Close to NYC, and they can consolidate their NYC office space (or most of it).
posted by odin53 at 9:28 AM on September 7, 2017
posted by odin53 at 9:28 AM on September 7, 2017
I've been having a debate on the /r/philadelphia reddit about Philadelphia going for this.
I'm against it.
Amazon is notorious for underpaying employees, high turnover (12-18 months), and combined with the obvious handouts on terms of tax breaks, it's bound to be a net-negative for the city if they go for it. 18 months is barely enough time to settle into a city, and anyone who moves to Philly to work for Amazon Corporate is likely to move somewhere else if they quit.
Naturally, this means I want Philly to stay poor and have no jobs.
posted by SansPoint at 9:29 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm against it.
Amazon is notorious for underpaying employees, high turnover (12-18 months), and combined with the obvious handouts on terms of tax breaks, it's bound to be a net-negative for the city if they go for it. 18 months is barely enough time to settle into a city, and anyone who moves to Philly to work for Amazon Corporate is likely to move somewhere else if they quit.
Naturally, this means I want Philly to stay poor and have no jobs.
posted by SansPoint at 9:29 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
They could save a bit by going to Waterloo.
I see what you did there. And the other joke too.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:29 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
I see what you did there. And the other joke too.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:29 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
San Bernardino, CA still has plenty of vacant properties since the downturn, and is close enough, relatively speaking, to Silicon Beach that it could be consideration in terms of attracting employees who want options.
The truth is I wouldn't lay money that it would make the short list, but I would think it would part of the initial discussion.
posted by vignettist at 9:33 AM on September 7, 2017
The truth is I wouldn't lay money that it would make the short list, but I would think it would part of the initial discussion.
posted by vignettist at 9:33 AM on September 7, 2017
Honestly I think their best bet would be buying out the miserable mall owning fucker who keeps blocking light rail to the east side.
posted by Artw at 9:33 AM on September 7, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:33 AM on September 7, 2017 [7 favorites]
What about Minneapolis? Close to Canada, centrally located, and there's an awful lot of empty office space with the implosion of Best Buy... on the other hand, why not Detroit? ALSO pretty central, close to Canada, and ... well, there's a lot of empty space they can pick and choose from, plus the rent has got to be rock-bottom.
Problem with Detroit is that while I'd love to see the city get some financial windfalls, I don't really want to see the Republican doofuses who torched and burned the Michigan economy get any kind of encouragement.
posted by caution live frogs at 9:33 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Problem with Detroit is that while I'd love to see the city get some financial windfalls, I don't really want to see the Republican doofuses who torched and burned the Michigan economy get any kind of encouragement.
posted by caution live frogs at 9:33 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Dallas has a pretty good mass transit system and has been attracting tons of major headquarters lately. I believe Dallas could put in a hell of a RFP.
(I grew up in Dallas and I hated the place forever but really y'all the city sucks so much less than it once did and I'm surprised at how fond I have gotten of that damn city)
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:35 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
(I grew up in Dallas and I hated the place forever but really y'all the city sucks so much less than it once did and I'm surprised at how fond I have gotten of that damn city)
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:35 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
Detroit has no mass transit to speak of, so no fears there.
Whatever they actually roll out will be only 30-70% of what's promised, but I'm sure they'll take up 100% or more of the tax breaks and other assistance offered them.
posted by praemunire at 9:36 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Whatever they actually roll out will be only 30-70% of what's promised, but I'm sure they'll take up 100% or more of the tax breaks and other assistance offered them.
posted by praemunire at 9:36 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Very good point. That pretty much knocks out places like Chicago
True. We actually just got our first computer a couple of years ago and we're still figuring out how to use it. We've tried shooting at it and smearing it with giardiniera but nothing's working.
posted by theodolite at 9:36 AM on September 7, 2017 [49 favorites]
True. We actually just got our first computer a couple of years ago and we're still figuring out how to use it. We've tried shooting at it and smearing it with giardiniera but nothing's working.
posted by theodolite at 9:36 AM on September 7, 2017 [49 favorites]
Please keep the fuck away from the Bay Area. And Boston (because I want to move back, and I don't want it to suck)
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 9:40 AM on September 7, 2017
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 9:40 AM on September 7, 2017
What about Minneapolis?
Minneapolis is a very, very rough place to hire software engineers right now. Everyone's moved away... Amazon does have a small office with about 150 engineers here but there isn't the kind of ecosystem to support a whole lot more.
posted by miyabo at 9:43 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Minneapolis is a very, very rough place to hire software engineers right now. Everyone's moved away... Amazon does have a small office with about 150 engineers here but there isn't the kind of ecosystem to support a whole lot more.
posted by miyabo at 9:43 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
I can pretty much see this happening in North Dallas/Richardson area. You could easily use the old Nortel campus (which was like 800,000 square feet) without having to build a new building. It's got a much cheaper cost of living than Seattle and it's got close proximity to about a zillion data centers.
Austin would be another possibility because it's more amenable to the type of tech workers that Amazon will want but it's not quite a useful from a infrastructure perspective.
posted by vuron at 9:47 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Austin would be another possibility because it's more amenable to the type of tech workers that Amazon will want but it's not quite a useful from a infrastructure perspective.
posted by vuron at 9:47 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Moving to Minneapolis has always been my backup plan if I get fed up of living in a big coastal city, so please god no.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:47 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 9:47 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
Whatever they actually roll out will be only 30-70% of what's promised, but I'm sure they'll take up 100% or more of the tax breaks and other assistance offered them.
So, listen. I know its fashionable to shit on Amazon, and that there are even good reasons for doing so, but speaking as someone who lives in a state where the old industry died and there is no new industry to replace it, leading to unemployment, poverty, drug addiction, and dying communities -- there are A LOT OF PLACES in the US where Amazon setting up shop in town, even at 30% of what was promised and with tax breaks -- would be a transformational event in extremely positive ways.
I get all the reasons why this could be problematic. But I guarantee you there are at least a dozen metro areas in NA -- maybe more -- where winning this bid would be THE difference between prosperity and falling into the ever-faster-spinning cycle of economic collapse.
I really do think this is a "if you build it they will come" moment. There are tons of people who might not move 2000 miles to work for Amazon, but they sure would move 200 or 500 or so. And once the talent is there, other smaller businesses will move in to sweep up those who fall away.
posted by anastasiav at 9:47 AM on September 7, 2017 [26 favorites]
So, listen. I know its fashionable to shit on Amazon, and that there are even good reasons for doing so, but speaking as someone who lives in a state where the old industry died and there is no new industry to replace it, leading to unemployment, poverty, drug addiction, and dying communities -- there are A LOT OF PLACES in the US where Amazon setting up shop in town, even at 30% of what was promised and with tax breaks -- would be a transformational event in extremely positive ways.
I get all the reasons why this could be problematic. But I guarantee you there are at least a dozen metro areas in NA -- maybe more -- where winning this bid would be THE difference between prosperity and falling into the ever-faster-spinning cycle of economic collapse.
I really do think this is a "if you build it they will come" moment. There are tons of people who might not move 2000 miles to work for Amazon, but they sure would move 200 or 500 or so. And once the talent is there, other smaller businesses will move in to sweep up those who fall away.
posted by anastasiav at 9:47 AM on September 7, 2017 [26 favorites]
I would be surprised if the Denver/Ft. Collins/Boulder area doesn't make a run at it. It's already got a healthy tech sector, still has some aerospace industry, as well as some oil & gas/healthcare/federal gov't sectors, so places to "jump ship to". A light rail system that's growing and trying to improve (and already to the airport), an okay bus system, and "room" to grow*, especially east of town. It's a purple state with lots of outdoor activities, museums, and all 4 sports, with a pretty good climate (relatively speaking - lots of sunshine but not too hot/humid, some snow, but not as cold/snowy as other places). Amazon already has some presence in Boulder. I don't know about available office space, but there's lots of construction going on downtown that doesn't include condos as well as by the airport/light rail. And people want to move here, as evidenced by all the growth, the low unemployment rate, and housing availability.
I disagree that it would be a good place for several reasons (what about all the water use GAAAAH it's already driving me crazy), but I could definitely see officials trying for it and having some real appeal.
*Housing, and housing prices, might be a problem, but the pressure felt in some areas could be eased depending on the locale they choose.
posted by barchan at 9:51 AM on September 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
I disagree that it would be a good place for several reasons (what about all the water use GAAAAH it's already driving me crazy), but I could definitely see officials trying for it and having some real appeal.
*Housing, and housing prices, might be a problem, but the pressure felt in some areas could be eased depending on the locale they choose.
posted by barchan at 9:51 AM on September 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
Bezos should put it in Mexico to troll Trump
posted by aiglet at 9:52 AM on September 7, 2017 [22 favorites]
posted by aiglet at 9:52 AM on September 7, 2017 [22 favorites]
there are A LOT OF PLACES in the US where Amazon setting up shop in town, even at 30% of what was promised and with tax breaks
I know someone who moved away from one of these places because the city council where she lived repeatedly rejected offers from tech companies to move in. To hear her talk about how this small town (in southeast Texas) basically shot themselves in the foot over and over makes me sad for the kids growing up in places like that.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:53 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
I know someone who moved away from one of these places because the city council where she lived repeatedly rejected offers from tech companies to move in. To hear her talk about how this small town (in southeast Texas) basically shot themselves in the foot over and over makes me sad for the kids growing up in places like that.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:53 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'll amend that - Bezos should put it in Mexico and staff it with as many deported DACA dreamers he can sign up
posted by aiglet at 9:55 AM on September 7, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by aiglet at 9:55 AM on September 7, 2017 [17 favorites]
Moving to Minneapolis has always been my backup plan if I get fed up of living in a big coastal city, so please god no.
I did it, no regrets. I'm also from there. Also no way it gets chosen for this.
posted by MillMan at 9:55 AM on September 7, 2017
I did it, no regrets. I'm also from there. Also no way it gets chosen for this.
posted by MillMan at 9:55 AM on September 7, 2017
Minnesota does have the perceived disadvantage of high taxes. Then again, compare its economy to say, Wisconsin.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:00 AM on September 7, 2017
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:00 AM on September 7, 2017
Then again, compare its economy to say, Wisconsin.
Wait, what did we do this time?
posted by drezdn at 10:02 AM on September 7, 2017
Wait, what did we do this time?
posted by drezdn at 10:02 AM on September 7, 2017
Pittsburgh's mayor is indicating that he's going to pursue this and Geekwire puts us in a list of six likely cities. I'm really hoping that they don't come anywhere close.
posted by octothorpe at 10:04 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 10:04 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
We've tried shooting at it and smearing it with giardiniera but nothing's working
Ah, so you've visited 1871 as well.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:04 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Ah, so you've visited 1871 as well.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:04 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't know. My state has been heavily courting tech companies, mostly for data centers, which I realize are a different beast than corporate headquarters. We recently offered $213 million in tax incentives for an Apple data center that will provide 50 permanent jobs. This is part of an overall "pro-business agenda," which involves slashing corporate taxes in an attempt to bring big corporations to the state. And it's created a massive budget crisis, which is being solved on the backs of public sector employees, students, people with disabilities, and all sorts of other folks who don't have the power and prestige of Google or Amazon or Apple. I don't think this is good for our state or its long-term economic well-being. In fact, I think that this strategy threatens some of the things, like our generally good education system, that make us attractive to corporations.
So anyway, I bet Des Moines will put in for the Amazon headquarters, although I can't imagine they'll get it. But even if they did stand a chance, I don't think it would be worth the cost. And honestly, I'm not sure that people have really contemplated the downsides that would come if it did succeed.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:06 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
So anyway, I bet Des Moines will put in for the Amazon headquarters, although I can't imagine they'll get it. But even if they did stand a chance, I don't think it would be worth the cost. And honestly, I'm not sure that people have really contemplated the downsides that would come if it did succeed.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:06 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
Pittsburgh actually seems like a pretty good bet. Lots of tech talent, plus it has a reputation among in-the-know people as a bit of a hidden gem.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:06 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:06 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
Hint to cities that want big tech company campuses -- you should invest in building great university CS departments, and be a place that's welcoming to immigrants from China and India. And you should have done that 20 years ago because now it's too late.
posted by miyabo at 10:14 AM on September 7, 2017 [26 favorites]
posted by miyabo at 10:14 AM on September 7, 2017 [26 favorites]
You want at least the illusion that everything isn't dominated by MAGA shit.
posted by Artw at 10:15 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:15 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
If Canada, the Cambridge-Waterloo triangle area is the natural place to look, lots of land and relatively low cost area. Certainly compared to Montreal or Toronto. There's little chance Vancouver is in the running in my view---too close to Seattle (and so drawing from the same talent pool), and too expensive for land.
Ottawa is a bit of an outside bet though: it's still recovering from the Nortel collapse, but the tech sector is strong and growing. There are two major universities in town; Carleton has decent CS and Engineering departments (truth be told, its main specialty is Aerospace though). Land is cheap compared to the other major centres, competitive with Waterloo. Even better there are a few large buildings around even campuses that are near vacant.
The question ultimately, I think will be settled by which provinces and municipalities would be willing to play with tax breaks.
posted by bonehead at 10:17 AM on September 7, 2017
Ottawa is a bit of an outside bet though: it's still recovering from the Nortel collapse, but the tech sector is strong and growing. There are two major universities in town; Carleton has decent CS and Engineering departments (truth be told, its main specialty is Aerospace though). Land is cheap compared to the other major centres, competitive with Waterloo. Even better there are a few large buildings around even campuses that are near vacant.
The question ultimately, I think will be settled by which provinces and municipalities would be willing to play with tax breaks.
posted by bonehead at 10:17 AM on September 7, 2017
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posted by loquacious at 10:20 AM on September 7, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by loquacious at 10:20 AM on September 7, 2017 [20 favorites]
What about Minneapolis? Close to Canada, centrally located, and there's an awful lot of empty office space with the implosion of Best Buy...
I'm willing to bet cash dollars that someone in St. Paul is hurridly trying to work out the logistics of ditching the current proposals for the old Ford factory site in St. Paul in favor of a fancy-dan new Amazon campus there.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 10:25 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm willing to bet cash dollars that someone in St. Paul is hurridly trying to work out the logistics of ditching the current proposals for the old Ford factory site in St. Paul in favor of a fancy-dan new Amazon campus there.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 10:25 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
Artw: "You want at least the illusion that everything isn't dominated by MAGA shit."
Well we're good on that as long as you don't venture about fifteen miles out of the city in any direction where you'll land solidly in Trumpland.
posted by octothorpe at 10:26 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Well we're good on that as long as you don't venture about fifteen miles out of the city in any direction where you'll land solidly in Trumpland.
posted by octothorpe at 10:26 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Friends don't let friends work for AMZ.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 10:29 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 10:29 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Well we're good on that as long as you don't venture about fifteen miles out of the city in any direction where you'll land solidly in Trumpland.
In fairness that is also true of Seattle.
posted by Artw at 10:30 AM on September 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
In fairness that is also true of Seattle.
posted by Artw at 10:30 AM on September 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
Friends don't let friends work for AMZ.
Ehh. It's a living. There are far more questionable tech jobs.
posted by Artw at 10:31 AM on September 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
Ehh. It's a living. There are far more questionable tech jobs.
posted by Artw at 10:31 AM on September 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
I hear St. Louis has a newly empty football stadium downtown. Better an Amazon headquarters than a dumb football team. Metrolink connects out to the suburbs and Lambert International Airport, and even East St. Louis. Or, hell, set it up in East St. Louis and be lauded for leading one the greatest urban renewals in American history.
posted by Groundhog Week at 10:37 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Groundhog Week at 10:37 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
fuck I just realized Whole Foods is headquartered in Austin as well. Please Amazon, go somewhere else. Austin is already ruined. We can't take anymore.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:43 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:43 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
but speaking as someone who lives in a state where the old industry died and there is no new industry to replace it, leading to unemployment, poverty, drug addiction, and dying communities -- there are A LOT OF PLACES in the US where Amazon setting up shop in town, even at 30% of what was promised and with tax breaks -- would be a transformational event in extremely positive ways.
And yet those industries died off because of the global business practices of companies like Amazon prime, and Walmart, and every other major US corporation that outsourced everything they could.
Sure, Amazon might not be a coal mine or a coal mine company town, but there's not a whole lot of social good about the company, its aggressively cultish work culture, its founder or end results on the social and economic landscape.
I used to live right next to HQ. Amazon is kind of the reason my nearly 100 year old low income studio apartment rent doubled in five years. I watched the entire nature of South Lake Union, Belltown and Denny Triangle in Seattle change and from my perspective it hasn't really been good.
It has been very, very shiny and futuristic. Yep, there's a lot of money flying around, too. It's not really benefiting the people or business who lived in those neighborhoods. They're being replaced wholesale, and the economic rift just got worse, with many, many more people homeless and camping on the streets and less and less services.
I've also witnessed the economic impact of Amazon driving out the working class, the service industry and the artists of Seattle and Capitol Hill. We're not just losing artists to high rent, we're losing art spaces and venues to high rents and gentrification. This economic tsunami is actually now plowing right over the hill into the Central District.
Bezos basically had to be publicly shamed into offering the Mary's Place organization a new home. His public contributions have been so tight for most of Amazon's history they might as well be nonexistent.
The culture of the employees around Amazon has been... frankly, kind of fucked up and monocultured. Amazon imports most of its workforce from outside of Seattle. That workforce has culturally been really uninterested in the history of Seattle or the nature of it, nor in protecting it or even assimilating. That workforce tends to be insular and, well, upwardly mobile. They're transient, and if they're smart they're only seeing Amazon and their stay in Seattle as temporary.
And they're treating Seattle and its residents who actually want to be there poorly as a result. They don't have to care. They can afford not to.
The businesses that cater to this workforce tend to be modular, replaceable chains themselves. This has had profound effects on local business and venues in Seattle. The money isn't really being shared that much with the local economy. It's like it just exists in its own economic bubble or sphere plopped down in the middle of a living, breathing city, pushing aside everything else, with only minimal monetary exchange at the membrane surrounding it.
Whatever city ends up with HQ2 is going to be profoundly changed, and it might not find it to be entirely positive.
posted by loquacious at 10:45 AM on September 7, 2017 [21 favorites]
And yet those industries died off because of the global business practices of companies like Amazon prime, and Walmart, and every other major US corporation that outsourced everything they could.
Sure, Amazon might not be a coal mine or a coal mine company town, but there's not a whole lot of social good about the company, its aggressively cultish work culture, its founder or end results on the social and economic landscape.
I used to live right next to HQ. Amazon is kind of the reason my nearly 100 year old low income studio apartment rent doubled in five years. I watched the entire nature of South Lake Union, Belltown and Denny Triangle in Seattle change and from my perspective it hasn't really been good.
It has been very, very shiny and futuristic. Yep, there's a lot of money flying around, too. It's not really benefiting the people or business who lived in those neighborhoods. They're being replaced wholesale, and the economic rift just got worse, with many, many more people homeless and camping on the streets and less and less services.
I've also witnessed the economic impact of Amazon driving out the working class, the service industry and the artists of Seattle and Capitol Hill. We're not just losing artists to high rent, we're losing art spaces and venues to high rents and gentrification. This economic tsunami is actually now plowing right over the hill into the Central District.
Bezos basically had to be publicly shamed into offering the Mary's Place organization a new home. His public contributions have been so tight for most of Amazon's history they might as well be nonexistent.
The culture of the employees around Amazon has been... frankly, kind of fucked up and monocultured. Amazon imports most of its workforce from outside of Seattle. That workforce has culturally been really uninterested in the history of Seattle or the nature of it, nor in protecting it or even assimilating. That workforce tends to be insular and, well, upwardly mobile. They're transient, and if they're smart they're only seeing Amazon and their stay in Seattle as temporary.
And they're treating Seattle and its residents who actually want to be there poorly as a result. They don't have to care. They can afford not to.
The businesses that cater to this workforce tend to be modular, replaceable chains themselves. This has had profound effects on local business and venues in Seattle. The money isn't really being shared that much with the local economy. It's like it just exists in its own economic bubble or sphere plopped down in the middle of a living, breathing city, pushing aside everything else, with only minimal monetary exchange at the membrane surrounding it.
Whatever city ends up with HQ2 is going to be profoundly changed, and it might not find it to be entirely positive.
posted by loquacious at 10:45 AM on September 7, 2017 [21 favorites]
ooh ooh! what ABOUT BOISE.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:45 AM on September 7, 2017
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:45 AM on September 7, 2017
Eh. I never get the weeping for South Lake Union. There was fuck all there.
posted by Artw at 10:46 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:46 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
Rents around here have already gone up over $1100 a month and home prices are skyrocketting. I really don't want us to turn into another Seattle.
posted by octothorpe at 10:46 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 10:46 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I'd be surprised if the Triangle isn't in the running. The public transportation system probably hurts the bid, but there are a lot of plans in the works, up to and including light rail, that could presumably be fast-tracked for a tenant like Amazon.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:47 AM on September 7, 2017
posted by Rock Steady at 10:47 AM on September 7, 2017
One of the requirements is easy access to public transportation on site: "Direct access to rail, train, subway/metro, bus routes." This rules out a lot of Midwestern places, even those who are pushing BRT for their transit solutions.
I predict it will go somewhere where light or heavy rail exists, and where said rail system connects to the airport.
Atlanta! MARTA doesn't go a lot of places, but the airport station is actually inside the airport right next to baggage claim, making it 99% nicer than most other cities' airport transit access.
posted by hydropsyche at 10:47 AM on September 7, 2017
I predict it will go somewhere where light or heavy rail exists, and where said rail system connects to the airport.
Atlanta! MARTA doesn't go a lot of places, but the airport station is actually inside the airport right next to baggage claim, making it 99% nicer than most other cities' airport transit access.
posted by hydropsyche at 10:47 AM on September 7, 2017
Eh. I never get the weeping for South Lake Union. There was fuck all there.
Same can be said for SODO but the Starbucks HQ didn't exactly ruin sections of Seattle like the Amazon mothership expansion has.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:49 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Same can be said for SODO but the Starbucks HQ didn't exactly ruin sections of Seattle like the Amazon mothership expansion has.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:49 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
MARTA doesn't go a lot of places
It's come a long way: when the subway system opened, there was one line, between Decatur and Georgia State.
posted by thelonius at 10:50 AM on September 7, 2017
It's come a long way: when the subway system opened, there was one line, between Decatur and Georgia State.
posted by thelonius at 10:50 AM on September 7, 2017
They say they prefer a population of over a million. Granted, metro areas can expand the reach, but-
Combine that criterion with tax friendly and the odds are, Texas
posted by BWA at 10:52 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Combine that criterion with tax friendly and the odds are, Texas
posted by BWA at 10:52 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Starbucks HQ is pretty much confined to one building, which they used to have partial ownership of but I guess they now have control of the whole thing. They'll probably fill it eventually but are more likely to put people in satelites like the one they had in King St than expand around SODO.
Also when i worked there we had a throry that the whole area will liquify next time there is an earthquake and the entire thing will sink into the ground, so that's fun.
posted by Artw at 10:53 AM on September 7, 2017
Also when i worked there we had a throry that the whole area will liquify next time there is an earthquake and the entire thing will sink into the ground, so that's fun.
posted by Artw at 10:53 AM on September 7, 2017
Eh. I never get the weeping for South Lake Union. There was fuck all there.
There was a theater, the Funhouse bar, a couple of different art studios/spaces and a handful of small specialty businesses, some of which supported the local arts. There was also a fuckton of gorgeous old architecture that was allowed to languish and decay.
Keep in mind that SLU was allowed to fester by Paul Allen and Viking Real Estate pretty much exactly for this redevelopment master plan. That decay was intentional.
Now it's a bunch of chrome and plastic cookie-cutter buildings and condos that's so sterile it might as well be a hospital lobby. And traffic is even more of a clusterfuck than ever, despite nearly 10 years of trying to unfuck the Mercer mess from LQA to the Cascades neighborhood.
I've managed to distill my feelings about this into one line: SLU used to be the creepy neighborhood where I was vaguely worried I might get mugged if I walked around at 2 in the morning, now it's the creepy neighborhood where I'm vaguely worried I might get falsely accused of car prowling.
posted by loquacious at 10:54 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
There was a theater, the Funhouse bar, a couple of different art studios/spaces and a handful of small specialty businesses, some of which supported the local arts. There was also a fuckton of gorgeous old architecture that was allowed to languish and decay.
Keep in mind that SLU was allowed to fester by Paul Allen and Viking Real Estate pretty much exactly for this redevelopment master plan. That decay was intentional.
Now it's a bunch of chrome and plastic cookie-cutter buildings and condos that's so sterile it might as well be a hospital lobby. And traffic is even more of a clusterfuck than ever, despite nearly 10 years of trying to unfuck the Mercer mess from LQA to the Cascades neighborhood.
I've managed to distill my feelings about this into one line: SLU used to be the creepy neighborhood where I was vaguely worried I might get mugged if I walked around at 2 in the morning, now it's the creepy neighborhood where I'm vaguely worried I might get falsely accused of car prowling.
posted by loquacious at 10:54 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
I frequently forget how much evil potting and hand rubbing and grinning is going on every day as I go about my business. Then I am reminded.
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 10:56 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 10:56 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Denver, just like barchan says.
Amenities, very attractive environment, transportation hub, swing state -- which will maximize Bezo's leverage with a hostile Trump administration, good for space related ventures, reasonably good educational infrastructure, and expandable housing supply.
posted by jamjam at 10:56 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Amenities, very attractive environment, transportation hub, swing state -- which will maximize Bezo's leverage with a hostile Trump administration, good for space related ventures, reasonably good educational infrastructure, and expandable housing supply.
posted by jamjam at 10:56 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
"Please provide an electronic copy and five (5) hard copies of your responses ..."
What, Amazon doesn't have a printer or copy machine?
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:57 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
What, Amazon doesn't have a printer or copy machine?
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:57 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
SLU of 2005 was basically a bunch of single story light industrial buildings one of which I worked in and which I have no idea why anyone would miss, so" good" SLU must predate that. Frankly i think there's a bit of a fantasy perpetuated about the area to stoke up Amazon's boegyman myth.
posted by Artw at 10:59 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 10:59 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
fuck I just realized Whole Foods is headquartered in Austin as well. Please Amazon, go somewhere else. Austin is already ruined. We can't take anymore.
This would make sense. But it would also make sense that Amazon will eventually just roll the WF HQ into their own structure and make it a satellite campus and expand it to HQ 3. Amazon has been really nimble about just building ad hoc campuses out of existing office buildings and infrastructure, or inducing multipurpose buildings to be built but not own.
posted by loquacious at 10:59 AM on September 7, 2017
This would make sense. But it would also make sense that Amazon will eventually just roll the WF HQ into their own structure and make it a satellite campus and expand it to HQ 3. Amazon has been really nimble about just building ad hoc campuses out of existing office buildings and infrastructure, or inducing multipurpose buildings to be built but not own.
posted by loquacious at 10:59 AM on September 7, 2017
Austin is too hot, and Texas is killing its university system.
posted by jamjam at 11:04 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 11:04 AM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
So, listen. I know its fashionable to shit on Amazon, and that there are even good reasons for doing so,
My comment was not Amazon-specific. These are the shenanigans that companies pull constantly (see, e.g., the Tesla factory in upstate NY). That you're so eager for crumbs from the table that you get upset when someone points out the history of companies failing to live up to their obligations in these kind of agreements says plenty.
posted by praemunire at 11:05 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
My comment was not Amazon-specific. These are the shenanigans that companies pull constantly (see, e.g., the Tesla factory in upstate NY). That you're so eager for crumbs from the table that you get upset when someone points out the history of companies failing to live up to their obligations in these kind of agreements says plenty.
posted by praemunire at 11:05 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
SLU of 2005 was basically a bunch of single story light industrial buildings one of which I worked in and which I have no idea why anyone would miss, so" good" SLU must predate that. Frankly i think there's a bit of a fantasy perpetuated about the area to stoke up Amazon's boegyman myth.
We value different things. I listed some of the good things I liked in SLU, but I'm wondering if you ever set foot in the Funhouse.
I should be clear that I'm not anti-redevelopment, either. I do strongly dislike what they turned SLU into, because the quick architecture and planning is forgettable. It's a very important part of Seattle's topography and I don't feel it's been used or integrated very effectively.
posted by loquacious at 11:05 AM on September 7, 2017
We value different things. I listed some of the good things I liked in SLU, but I'm wondering if you ever set foot in the Funhouse.
I should be clear that I'm not anti-redevelopment, either. I do strongly dislike what they turned SLU into, because the quick architecture and planning is forgettable. It's a very important part of Seattle's topography and I don't feel it's been used or integrated very effectively.
posted by loquacious at 11:05 AM on September 7, 2017
Mr.Know-it-some: What, Amazon doesn't have a printer or copy machine?
They don't even have real desks!
posted by SansPoint at 11:06 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
They don't even have real desks!
posted by SansPoint at 11:06 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
If it's the place I think it was the funhouse was up by the Space Needle, nowhere near Amazon.
posted by Artw at 11:12 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 11:12 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure that I'd agree that Texas is killing it's university system. Yes funding at the state level has been declining but in general Texas universities tend to be increasing enrollment while enrollment tends to be shrinking for many universities and colleges as the demographic boom of the millennials begins to decline.
Texas has some significant issues in terms of being able to support growth as a lack of water will limit the ability of the Texas triangle to grow but in terms of actually being able to support HQs Texas still has a ton of advantages that are present in many of the Sunbelt states but also the presence of major cities and proximity to international airports.
I would agree that Denver also would have to be considered a major contender based upon the growth rates in the Front Range Urban Corridor and the presence of a major international airport although I'm not sure where they are at in terms of urban and regional mass transit.
posted by vuron at 11:16 AM on September 7, 2017
Texas has some significant issues in terms of being able to support growth as a lack of water will limit the ability of the Texas triangle to grow but in terms of actually being able to support HQs Texas still has a ton of advantages that are present in many of the Sunbelt states but also the presence of major cities and proximity to international airports.
I would agree that Denver also would have to be considered a major contender based upon the growth rates in the Front Range Urban Corridor and the presence of a major international airport although I'm not sure where they are at in terms of urban and regional mass transit.
posted by vuron at 11:16 AM on September 7, 2017
You may laugh, but don't count out the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky metro area. Amazon is currently building their global air cargo hub here. Kentucky has 11 Amazon product warehouses. In Ohio, the state has landed three Amazon server centers and two product warehouses in central Ohio; two Amazon wind farms in northwest Ohio; and a product warehouse in Cleveland. Last week, the state approved tax credits for another Amazon fulfillment center, this time with 1,000 employees in Monroe.* This is just since 2015.
*Per the Cincinnati Enquirer.
posted by bwvol at 11:17 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
*Per the Cincinnati Enquirer.
posted by bwvol at 11:17 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
there are A LOT OF PLACES in the US where Amazon setting up shop in town, even at 30% of what was promised and with tax breaks -- would be a transformational event in extremely positive ways
And one of those positive ways could be to change the political balance in a swing state. If Amazon had set up in Pittsburgh four years ago, there's a good chance Pennsylvania wouldn't have gone for Trump in 2016 by 44K votes.
posted by The Minotaur at 11:23 AM on September 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
And one of those positive ways could be to change the political balance in a swing state. If Amazon had set up in Pittsburgh four years ago, there's a good chance Pennsylvania wouldn't have gone for Trump in 2016 by 44K votes.
posted by The Minotaur at 11:23 AM on September 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
"Travel time to an international airport with daily direct flights to Seattle, New York, San Francisco/Bay Area, and Washington, D.C. is also an important consideration."
In all the speculation I've seen this morning I haven't seen a list of the airports in North America satisfying this. If openflights.org data is correct, that list is: Albuquerque, Atlanta, Austin, Boston, Charlotte, Chicago, Dallas-Fort Worth, Denver, Detroit, Houston, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Miami, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Orlando, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Portland, Sacramento, Salt Lake City, San Antonio, San Diego, St. Louis, Toronto.
posted by madcaptenor at 11:31 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
In all the speculation I've seen this morning I haven't seen a list of the airports in North America satisfying this. If openflights.org data is correct, that list is: Albuquerque, Atlanta, Austin, Boston, Charlotte, Chicago, Dallas-Fort Worth, Denver, Detroit, Houston, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Miami, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Orlando, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Portland, Sacramento, Salt Lake City, San Antonio, San Diego, St. Louis, Toronto.
posted by madcaptenor at 11:31 AM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
As long as the airport is there, it wouldn't be that hard to start flights if the demand was present. Our airport is 3/4 mothballed ever since US Air closed down its hub but it wouldn't be that hard for them to reopen the closed gates if needed.
posted by octothorpe at 11:35 AM on September 7, 2017
posted by octothorpe at 11:35 AM on September 7, 2017
My uninformed guesses:
1) HQ2 site will be Austin or Research Triangle*.
2) From now until HQ2 comes online, AMZN will start complaining loudly and publicly that Washington in general and Seattle in particular are not great places to do business. They will use words like "stifling innovation," "hostile to achievement,**" and "difficult environment," which are all code phrases for "don't you dare try to tax our business and personal income, you peasants."
3) The WA State Legislature, lead by Democrats from Puget Sound, will bend over backwards coming up with tax breaks to convince AMZN to please, please, please stay***.
4) AMZN will use these breaks as a way of subsidizing the construction/buy-out/terraforming for HQ2.
5) Once HQ2 is online, AMZN leaves Seattle****.
6) A consortium of Chinese companies moves into Seattle*****.
As for solutions, I could see all the Amholes forming one big union, tech and delivery and warehouse and all, and having the lot of them go on strike if it looks like (5) is going to happen. However, considering how cut-throat and transitory the workforce is, I can't see them having any sense of solidarity and uniting. So, I might as well get to work learning Mandarin******, 'cause I'm not leaving this place until I'm dead.
* For all the reasons posted by many other readers up above, plus Texas and NC are union-fighting states.
** The Seattle City Council is floating the idea of a 2.25 percent tax on total income above $250,000 for individuals and above $500,000 for married couples filing their taxes together. A group of venture capitalists have filed suit, calling this (and I swear to God I am not making this up) an "achievement tax."
*** This is what the WALeg did for Boeing.
**** This is how Boeing is currently repaying the state of Washington.
***** Or Korean, if a bunch of the chaebols get tired of being in the crosshairs of North Korean artillery and see a ton of vacant office space and housing in Seattle.
****** Or Korean. Please, Korean. Please, chaebols, move to South Lake Union and fill it up with bibimbap and tofu stew houses.
posted by RakDaddy at 11:39 AM on September 7, 2017 [9 favorites]
1) HQ2 site will be Austin or Research Triangle*.
2) From now until HQ2 comes online, AMZN will start complaining loudly and publicly that Washington in general and Seattle in particular are not great places to do business. They will use words like "stifling innovation," "hostile to achievement,**" and "difficult environment," which are all code phrases for "don't you dare try to tax our business and personal income, you peasants."
3) The WA State Legislature, lead by Democrats from Puget Sound, will bend over backwards coming up with tax breaks to convince AMZN to please, please, please stay***.
4) AMZN will use these breaks as a way of subsidizing the construction/buy-out/terraforming for HQ2.
5) Once HQ2 is online, AMZN leaves Seattle****.
6) A consortium of Chinese companies moves into Seattle*****.
As for solutions, I could see all the Amholes forming one big union, tech and delivery and warehouse and all, and having the lot of them go on strike if it looks like (5) is going to happen. However, considering how cut-throat and transitory the workforce is, I can't see them having any sense of solidarity and uniting. So, I might as well get to work learning Mandarin******, 'cause I'm not leaving this place until I'm dead.
* For all the reasons posted by many other readers up above, plus Texas and NC are union-fighting states.
** The Seattle City Council is floating the idea of a 2.25 percent tax on total income above $250,000 for individuals and above $500,000 for married couples filing their taxes together. A group of venture capitalists have filed suit, calling this (and I swear to God I am not making this up) an "achievement tax."
*** This is what the WALeg did for Boeing.
**** This is how Boeing is currently repaying the state of Washington.
***** Or Korean, if a bunch of the chaebols get tired of being in the crosshairs of North Korean artillery and see a ton of vacant office space and housing in Seattle.
****** Or Korean. Please, Korean. Please, chaebols, move to South Lake Union and fill it up with bibimbap and tofu stew houses.
posted by RakDaddy at 11:39 AM on September 7, 2017 [9 favorites]
Oh Mayor Peduto no.
Do not want. We're fine with just the Google and the robot cars. Enough.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:42 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Do not want. We're fine with just the Google and the robot cars. Enough.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:42 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Well, there's Marination. Don't lknow how the pricey fusion places do in this scenario.
posted by Artw at 11:43 AM on September 7, 2017
posted by Artw at 11:43 AM on September 7, 2017
** The Seattle City Council is floating the idea of a 2.25 percent tax on total income above $250,000 for individuals and above $500,000 for married couples filing their taxes together. A group of venture capitalists have filed suit, calling this (and I swear to God I am not making this up) an "achievement tax."
Hah, they'd hate it here then. We already have a 3% local tax on all income.
posted by octothorpe at 11:44 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Hah, they'd hate it here then. We already have a 3% local tax on all income.
posted by octothorpe at 11:44 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
So I guess Seattle really is full up, now.
posted by rmd1023 at 11:50 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by rmd1023 at 11:50 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
I bet my husband $5 it's Austin.
posted by potrzebie at 11:54 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by potrzebie at 11:54 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Don't know how the pricey fusion places do in this scenario.
They turn into Korean BBQ joints, I think.
Though I would miss Marination.
posted by RakDaddy at 11:58 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
They turn into Korean BBQ joints, I think.
Though I would miss Marination.
posted by RakDaddy at 11:58 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
I would suggest lunch there someday but there's always a queue because of all the fucking Amazon people.
posted by Artw at 12:02 PM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:02 PM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also, despite the short lived tenure of most employees what Amazon *really* wants to attract is lifers
I don't see the evidence that this is true.
Sure, there might be individuals among management in Amazon that want the benefits that come with a longterm stable workforce, and so they think they want to attract lifers. But like many other businesses out there, this is so far down their priority list that they effectively don't want it at all -- they actually value the things that cause high turnover highly enough that they are functionally unable to address them.
It's like saying I "want" to be an olympic athlete. Yep, that sounds nice. What would I have to do to make that happen? Oh.
posted by wildblueyonder at 12:08 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't see the evidence that this is true.
Sure, there might be individuals among management in Amazon that want the benefits that come with a longterm stable workforce, and so they think they want to attract lifers. But like many other businesses out there, this is so far down their priority list that they effectively don't want it at all -- they actually value the things that cause high turnover highly enough that they are functionally unable to address them.
It's like saying I "want" to be an olympic athlete. Yep, that sounds nice. What would I have to do to make that happen? Oh.
posted by wildblueyonder at 12:08 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
It;s all a bit weird and contrdictory TBH - They have a VERY aggressive set of screening practices, because they don't want to sink time and energy into hiring people and then not have it work out. They also focus on FTEs and not contractors for the same reason. I have every reason to believe that people they do hire that way are people they want to keep and want to keep long term, and indeed there's a hardcore of people they *do* keep. On the other hand the dropout point for most people ends up being one and a half years which is about how long you can keep a contractor anyway so who knows?
posted by Artw at 12:19 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 12:19 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's the 1 week vacation that must kill their retention. Even making 200K, how long can you really last with 1 week vacation a year if you have a spouse, kids, and life stuff going on?
They keep a small contingent of very senior people by paying them insane amounts and giving them tons of flexibility. Then they churn through recent graduates who do all the actual work. It's a strange system but it seems to work for them.
posted by miyabo at 12:37 PM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
They keep a small contingent of very senior people by paying them insane amounts and giving them tons of flexibility. Then they churn through recent graduates who do all the actual work. It's a strange system but it seems to work for them.
posted by miyabo at 12:37 PM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
if you have a spouse, kids, and life stuff going on
nono, this is Amazon we're talking about
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 12:38 PM on September 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
nono, this is Amazon we're talking about
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 12:38 PM on September 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
I wonder if something like this could flip a red state blue. Not that Amazon is all that progressive, but surely an influx of 50,000 college graduates could change the political landscape of an Idaho or a Wyoming.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 12:56 PM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 12:56 PM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's the 1 week vacation that must kill their retention. Even making 200K, how long can you really last with 1 week vacation a year if you have a spouse, kids, and life stuff going on?
Everything I can find says that they give 2 weeks the first year and 3 after that. Not great but not one week either.
posted by octothorpe at 1:01 PM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
Everything I can find says that they give 2 weeks the first year and 3 after that. Not great but not one week either.
posted by octothorpe at 1:01 PM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
It's pretty standard. Shitty, obvs, but that's America.
posted by Artw at 1:03 PM on September 7, 2017
posted by Artw at 1:03 PM on September 7, 2017
the phlegmatic king: "hurridly trying to work out the logistics of ditching the current proposals for the old Ford factory site in St. Paul "
Yeah, that is a LOT of empty space... the downside, as with anything in the TC metro, is that there's a choke point at the bridges to get there. And the light rail doesn't come any closer to the old Ford plant site than 46th St & Hiawatha, which is what, a mile away, and on the wrong side of the Mississippi?
posted by caution live frogs at 1:06 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that is a LOT of empty space... the downside, as with anything in the TC metro, is that there's a choke point at the bridges to get there. And the light rail doesn't come any closer to the old Ford plant site than 46th St & Hiawatha, which is what, a mile away, and on the wrong side of the Mississippi?
posted by caution live frogs at 1:06 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
One of the requirements is easy access to public transportation on site: "Direct access to rail, train, subway/metro, bus routes."
That crosses Indy off the list (if it was ever on the list) Public transportation is a joke here.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:06 PM on September 7, 2017
That crosses Indy off the list (if it was ever on the list) Public transportation is a joke here.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:06 PM on September 7, 2017
If openflights.org data is correct, that list is
Well, I'm not sure it's entirely complete -- Baltimore meets that description too, SJC via JetBlue, Seattle via Spirit (and maybe one other that I'm forgetting? Alaska?), NYC area via various airlines. Maybe it's not there because BWI is already a DC-area airport, though. (Not that I think amazon here at that scale is likely to work or is a great idea, but the mayor is already talking about submitting).
posted by advil at 1:10 PM on September 7, 2017
Well, I'm not sure it's entirely complete -- Baltimore meets that description too, SJC via JetBlue, Seattle via Spirit (and maybe one other that I'm forgetting? Alaska?), NYC area via various airlines. Maybe it's not there because BWI is already a DC-area airport, though. (Not that I think amazon here at that scale is likely to work or is a great idea, but the mayor is already talking about submitting).
posted by advil at 1:10 PM on September 7, 2017
As much as Hotlanta is, you know, too hot, if Amazon opened there they could employ more black people than the rest of the tech industry combined. It's like the anti-Seattle.
posted by GuyZero at 1:11 PM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 1:11 PM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
Everything I can find says that they give 2 weeks the first year and 3 after that.
Oh, then things have changed since... my friend... had 3 interviews there :) .
posted by miyabo at 1:18 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Oh, then things have changed since... my friend... had 3 interviews there :) .
posted by miyabo at 1:18 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Per Glassdoor: Amazon.com's salaried employees earn two weeks of vacation time in their first year of employment and three weeks of vacation in their second year. Hourly employees earn 40 hours of vacation time in their first year of employment and 80 hours in their second year. All employees earn six personal days per year.
posted by Artw at 1:31 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 1:31 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Well, I'm not sure it's entirely complete -- Baltimore meets that description too
I looked for airports that have flights to SEA, at least one of SFO/OAK/SJC, at least one of BWI/IAD/DCA, at least one of EWR/JFK/LGA. So Baltimore didn't make the cut because BWI doesn't have flights to IAD or DCA, but I agree it should count.
posted by madcaptenor at 1:40 PM on September 7, 2017
I looked for airports that have flights to SEA, at least one of SFO/OAK/SJC, at least one of BWI/IAD/DCA, at least one of EWR/JFK/LGA. So Baltimore didn't make the cut because BWI doesn't have flights to IAD or DCA, but I agree it should count.
posted by madcaptenor at 1:40 PM on September 7, 2017
Did somebody say airport? And/or warehouse? Memphis says hi. We're home to FedEx HQ, and have one of the largest cargo airports in the world. You probably wouldn't be the worst local employer, either.
We'd even kick the Bass Pro Shop out of the pyramid if they wanted, or they can have an abandoned skyscraper. And there's no state income tax in Tennessee. (Northern Mississippi trying to snipe this can go STRAIGHT TO HAYULL.)
(We have...a downtown trolley. Kind of. And some buses that go one, maybe even two places.)
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:00 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
We'd even kick the Bass Pro Shop out of the pyramid if they wanted, or they can have an abandoned skyscraper. And there's no state income tax in Tennessee. (Northern Mississippi trying to snipe this can go STRAIGHT TO HAYULL.)
(We have...a downtown trolley. Kind of. And some buses that go one, maybe even two places.)
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:00 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
light industrial buildings one of which I worked in and which I have no idea why anyone would miss, so" good" SLU must predate that.
Well it must have been a short spike as I grew up there and it was always light industrial. I mean I got a down jacket for $5 once that kept me alive when I moved east, I totally lurv light industrial, random parts you never knew you needed, a free lance welding shop, internationally recognized movie film processing lab, great areas but generally does survive "disrupt".
I don't think they could actually fit anywhere in Boston, I'd vote for Detroit. Use that insane growth to bootstrap a struggling city.
posted by sammyo at 2:02 PM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Well it must have been a short spike as I grew up there and it was always light industrial. I mean I got a down jacket for $5 once that kept me alive when I moved east, I totally lurv light industrial, random parts you never knew you needed, a free lance welding shop, internationally recognized movie film processing lab, great areas but generally does survive "disrupt".
I don't think they could actually fit anywhere in Boston, I'd vote for Detroit. Use that insane growth to bootstrap a struggling city.
posted by sammyo at 2:02 PM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Glaser/Ivey moved to Portland, IIRC, which is conspicuously absent from discussion - already too crowded and expensive I guess.
posted by Artw at 2:13 PM on September 7, 2017
posted by Artw at 2:13 PM on September 7, 2017
I expect Arizona is going to make a major push at this. Job growth in this state has been meh for a long time, and there's desperation to land one of these types of deals that any government leader can tout as a "home run." Our logistical setup out here is nothing short of excellent and wages won't be quite as high as elsewhere. Taxes are low. There is tons and tons of land out here, not far from the two major metros (out of the two, they would most likely end up in the Phoenix area, not Tucson.) However, this state has completely butchered education, and water is an issue, especially if you're talking about 50,000 jobs plus family members of those employees. The education issue is important not just because of all the college grads they'd need to fill these positions, but also because all of those people that move to the area to work have to send their kids to school here. That's a subject that has come up before with businesses the state has tried to lure. I'd rate Arizona as a dark horse, I'd rate Texas as the favorite if I had to bet money, and I'd rate Detroit as an excellent spot because of the chance to renew a city core that's in very bad shape.
posted by azpenguin at 2:14 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by azpenguin at 2:14 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Fuck no. Nobody is moving to Arizona. Dead state.
posted by Artw at 2:20 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 2:20 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
the old Ford factory site in St. Paul
Can confirm that the NIMBY side latched right on to this because jobs! even though their main objection has been about density and 50K Amazon workers >> 7K residents projected under the current plan. If you're feeling masochistic, find and join the Ford Plant Rant group on FB.
posted by Flannery Culp at 2:29 PM on September 7, 2017
Can confirm that the NIMBY side latched right on to this because jobs! even though their main objection has been about density and 50K Amazon workers >> 7K residents projected under the current plan. If you're feeling masochistic, find and join the Ford Plant Rant group on FB.
posted by Flannery Culp at 2:29 PM on September 7, 2017
I'm willing to bet cash dollars that someone in St. Paul is hurridly trying to work out the logistics of ditching the current proposals for the old Ford factory site in St. Paul in favor of a fancy-dan new Amazon campus there.hahaha, the Ford plant neighbors are already apoplectic about the current proposal that would only drop a few 10 story residential buildings onto the site. 50,000 daily Amazon commuters would be NIMBY Armageddon.
Gov Dayton is saying there will be a Minnesota proposal. Can't see it working. there's a decent tech base here, but not enough for what they're looking for, won't be able to compete on the regulatory/tax concessions they want, and we're already in the midst of a housing crisis. There aren't a lot of large, centrally located sites where you could build a new campus this big. Maybe the St Paul Midway site where the MLS stadium is going to go - they haven't worked out the commercial/office portion of that yet - or the riverfront area just north of downtown Minneapolis that's in the early planning stages for redevelopment.
posted by cnelson at 2:35 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
The fact that they are saying "North America" rather than "America" is making me feel ill.
There are plenty of places this would be a good fit in Canada - even "expensive" Toronto has its last piece of available downtown land ready for redevelopment (the unilever site in the portlands) but doesn't have a major tenant lined up. And tech jobs here don't pay nearly what they do in the US so they could match/beat the going rate for local jobs and still cut labour costs.
But I think "North America" instead of "America" is there to get not only local and state governments competing for subsidies and tax breaks to hand to Amazon, but federal governments as well.
posted by thecjm at 2:48 PM on September 7, 2017
There are plenty of places this would be a good fit in Canada - even "expensive" Toronto has its last piece of available downtown land ready for redevelopment (the unilever site in the portlands) but doesn't have a major tenant lined up. And tech jobs here don't pay nearly what they do in the US so they could match/beat the going rate for local jobs and still cut labour costs.
But I think "North America" instead of "America" is there to get not only local and state governments competing for subsidies and tax breaks to hand to Amazon, but federal governments as well.
posted by thecjm at 2:48 PM on September 7, 2017
Bentonville, AR.
Keep your enemies closer, etc, etc.
And as a bonus they could make some Amazon shows about the open warfare with Walmart that would create....
posted by inflatablekiwi at 2:49 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Keep your enemies closer, etc, etc.
And as a bonus they could make some Amazon shows about the open warfare with Walmart that would create....
posted by inflatablekiwi at 2:49 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
>>The requirements seem to ask for mass transit, which pretty much knocks out every city in the country except for DC, NYC, and Chicago.
>Boston, maybe?
Boston, I have seen mass transit. I knew mass transit. Mass transit was a friend of mine. Boston, you have no mass transit.
(Checks today's paper for confirmation, yep there we go.)
posted by jeremias at 3:00 PM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
>Boston, maybe?
Boston, I have seen mass transit. I knew mass transit. Mass transit was a friend of mine. Boston, you have no mass transit.
(Checks today's paper for confirmation, yep there we go.)
posted by jeremias at 3:00 PM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Toronto does seem like a natural fit. It maximizes the whole two Roman Empires thing that Amazon might want to get going, with headquarters in two different countries that are also geographically separated. When governments get unruly in one HQ, use the other as leverage.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:00 PM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Kevin Street at 3:00 PM on September 7, 2017 [3 favorites]
I understand they have an overbudget tunnel project? That's very Seattle-like.
posted by Artw at 3:01 PM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:01 PM on September 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
I wonder how important it will be to have fiber optic level internet connections for employees.
posted by ZeusHumms at 3:02 PM on September 7, 2017
posted by ZeusHumms at 3:02 PM on September 7, 2017
Maybe the St Paul Midway site where the MLS stadium is going to go - they haven't worked out the commercial/office portion of that yet - or the riverfront area just north of downtown Minneapolis that's in the early planning stages for redevelopment.
Older versions of that plan depicted office, hotel, and apartment space. Now they just show surface parking lots.
posted by ZeusHumms at 3:03 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Older versions of that plan depicted office, hotel, and apartment space. Now they just show surface parking lots.
posted by ZeusHumms at 3:03 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Longshot odds guess: Otay Mesa in San Diego and building a connected campus right across the border in Tijuana; hence the "North America" specification.
posted by wcfields at 4:57 PM on September 7, 2017
posted by wcfields at 4:57 PM on September 7, 2017
Boston, I have seen mass transit. I knew mass transit. Mass transit was a friend of mine. Boston, you have no mass transit.
Boston has lots of mass transit. Red, Blue, Orange, Silver, 5 Green local train lines, commuter rail going north & south plus buses. You may not like the quality of service but that's not for lack of routes.
posted by scalefree at 5:03 PM on September 7, 2017
Boston has lots of mass transit. Red, Blue, Orange, Silver, 5 Green local train lines, commuter rail going north & south plus buses. You may not like the quality of service but that's not for lack of routes.
posted by scalefree at 5:03 PM on September 7, 2017
> Amazon imports most of its workforce from outside of Seattle.
It would be much easier and cheaper for them to hire nothing but Seattlites, I'm sure, and not have to deal with relocation expenses and visas, but there aren't enough available computer programmers here (or in the US at large).
> That workforce has culturally been really uninterested in the history of Seattle or the nature of it, nor in protecting it or even assimilating.
Historically, "assimilating" has not been a positive thing to ask of immigrants.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:08 PM on September 7, 2017
It would be much easier and cheaper for them to hire nothing but Seattlites, I'm sure, and not have to deal with relocation expenses and visas, but there aren't enough available computer programmers here (or in the US at large).
> That workforce has culturally been really uninterested in the history of Seattle or the nature of it, nor in protecting it or even assimilating.
Historically, "assimilating" has not been a positive thing to ask of immigrants.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:08 PM on September 7, 2017
Fuck no. Nobody is moving to Arizona. Dead state.
Curious to know: what do you base this statement on?
posted by azpenguin at 5:39 PM on September 7, 2017
Curious to know: what do you base this statement on?
posted by azpenguin at 5:39 PM on September 7, 2017
Climate change and aquifers, plus most of Amazons workforce would quit before relocating there.
posted by Artw at 5:43 PM on September 7, 2017
posted by Artw at 5:43 PM on September 7, 2017
Amazon imports most of its workforce from outside of Seattle.
Having lived in Seattle a little over 10 years I feel like a longtimer and a bearer of ancient Seattle law compared with most of my friends and coworkers.
Not a lot of Seattlites are from here, it's just the nature of the place.
posted by Artw at 5:45 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Having lived in Seattle a little over 10 years I feel like a longtimer and a bearer of ancient Seattle law compared with most of my friends and coworkers.
Not a lot of Seattlites are from here, it's just the nature of the place.
posted by Artw at 5:45 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
I grew up in Seattle and moved away. Even as a fresh CS graduate 10 years ago I couldn't reasonably afford an apartment anywhere near where I grew up. I could now but I'm pretty settled. Things have changed obviously and even first-year software engineers can afford an apartment in an expensive city, but a whole lot of other people are moving away -- the damage to other fields and employers must be incredible.
posted by miyabo at 6:07 PM on September 7, 2017
posted by miyabo at 6:07 PM on September 7, 2017
Curious to know: what do you base this statement on?I'm not denying that this is unfair, but between Joe Arpaio and the Papers Please legislation, a lot of people associate Arizona with racism and anti-immigrant sentiment. Amazon employs a lot of immigrants in high-level positions. They're not moving to Arizona.
Probably, they're moving to Canada. We're all Arizona now.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:16 PM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Hard to get people who are highly trained and getting paid well into six figures to move to a place where they'll be constantly harassed and intimidated. Funny how every state wants immigrants of color as long as they're rich.
posted by miyabo at 6:25 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by miyabo at 6:25 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Boston, I have seen mass transit. I knew mass transit. Mass transit was a friend of mine. Boston, you have no mass transit.
Boston has lots of mass transit. Red, Blue, Orange, Silver, 5 Green local train lines, commuter rail going north & south plus buses. You may not like the quality of service but that's not for lack of routes.
Yep, have been using it daily for the last 4 years and many years before that and stand by my statement.
posted by jeremias at 6:34 PM on September 7, 2017
Boston has lots of mass transit. Red, Blue, Orange, Silver, 5 Green local train lines, commuter rail going north & south plus buses. You may not like the quality of service but that's not for lack of routes.
Yep, have been using it daily for the last 4 years and many years before that and stand by my statement.
posted by jeremias at 6:34 PM on September 7, 2017
Climate change and aquifers, plus most of Amazons workforce would quit before relocating there.
posted by Artw An hour ago [+] [!]
Water is a legitimate issue and it does get hot here. We're screwed up politically. But this state keeps growing and growing. People are moving here left and right and houses keep going up. It's a beautiful state. If anti-immigrant sentiment is an issue (and it's a legitimate concern, hell yes) then that would mean Texas would be out as well. And I think states that butcher their education systems and discriminate against anyone should be forced to deal with the consequences of those actions. BUT let's see how far corporate conscience goes. I bet it doesn't go as far as you think.
Also, SAD ain't a thing here, so there's that...
posted by azpenguin at 7:06 PM on September 7, 2017
posted by Artw An hour ago [+] [!]
Water is a legitimate issue and it does get hot here. We're screwed up politically. But this state keeps growing and growing. People are moving here left and right and houses keep going up. It's a beautiful state. If anti-immigrant sentiment is an issue (and it's a legitimate concern, hell yes) then that would mean Texas would be out as well. And I think states that butcher their education systems and discriminate against anyone should be forced to deal with the consequences of those actions. BUT let's see how far corporate conscience goes. I bet it doesn't go as far as you think.
Also, SAD ain't a thing here, so there's that...
posted by azpenguin at 7:06 PM on September 7, 2017
If it's the place I think it was the funhouse was up by the Space Needle, nowhere near Amazon.
It was a 3-5 minute walk from Amazon's current campus, as well as their old campus and building at Denny, and maybe 5-6 from the SLU offices.
It was replaced by condos or a longer term stay Hyatt or something. Most of these new luxury condos and temp-stay hotels are catering to Amazon's workforce.
How you can say this is nowhere near Amazon or that these things aren't related is fucking baffling to me.
Historically, "assimilating" has not been a positive thing to ask of immigrants.
I'm not talking about international immigrants, H1Bs or people of color. I never even used the words immigrant or migrant.
I'm talking about how Amazon is completely displacing the parts of Seattle that I personally value. I'm talking about seeing people living on the streets that I know used to have apartments in Belltown, people who lived there for years and even decades. I'm talking about seeing the buildings that these people lived in being replaced with luxury condos and no affordable housing near the services that many of these people required.
If I were to distill it down I'm talking about Bezos' libertarian influence on Amazon and its corporate culture and hiring practices and how this is kind of slowly gutting downtown Seattle and replacing it with something that feels really cold, sterile and disposable.
posted by loquacious at 7:11 PM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
It was a 3-5 minute walk from Amazon's current campus, as well as their old campus and building at Denny, and maybe 5-6 from the SLU offices.
It was replaced by condos or a longer term stay Hyatt or something. Most of these new luxury condos and temp-stay hotels are catering to Amazon's workforce.
How you can say this is nowhere near Amazon or that these things aren't related is fucking baffling to me.
Historically, "assimilating" has not been a positive thing to ask of immigrants.
I'm not talking about international immigrants, H1Bs or people of color. I never even used the words immigrant or migrant.
I'm talking about how Amazon is completely displacing the parts of Seattle that I personally value. I'm talking about seeing people living on the streets that I know used to have apartments in Belltown, people who lived there for years and even decades. I'm talking about seeing the buildings that these people lived in being replaced with luxury condos and no affordable housing near the services that many of these people required.
If I were to distill it down I'm talking about Bezos' libertarian influence on Amazon and its corporate culture and hiring practices and how this is kind of slowly gutting downtown Seattle and replacing it with something that feels really cold, sterile and disposable.
posted by loquacious at 7:11 PM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
How you can say this is nowhere near Amazon or that these things aren't related is fucking baffling to me.
Cos it's all the way across Aurora and in no way in the area we were talking about, mostly.
posted by Artw at 7:40 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Cos it's all the way across Aurora and in no way in the area we were talking about, mostly.
posted by Artw at 7:40 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think you're both right, Artw and loquacious. On the one hand, I agree with Artw that the original Funhouse location on 5th Ave on the eastern edge of Seattle Center is well outside of the areas of South Lake Union and Denny Triangle that are considered part of Amazon's campus. The fact that 99 can only be crossed on foot at either Denny or Mercer means that it's not a five minute walk to Amazon's SLU offices but at least fifteen. Also, I'm not sure what is meant by Amazon's "old campus" because before they moved to SLU, they were leasing buildings scattered between the International District, Beacon Hill, and Downtown too far apart to really be called a campus.
On the other hand, I agree with loquacious that if not for Amazon, the Funhouse might still be open on 5th rather than relocated into the other half of El Corazon. I think it's pretty undeniable that a lot of the development in the surrounding areas like Belltown, Lower Queen Anne and arguably even Capitol Hill would not have happened if Amazon had not moved into SLU. I would say it's more of an indirect casualty of Amazon rather a direct casualty like, say, the Hurricane where Amazon itself (not Vulcan or some other real estate development company) literally bought up the whole block so that it could be torn down to make room for more offices.
posted by Pseudonymous Sockpuppet at 10:21 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, I agree with loquacious that if not for Amazon, the Funhouse might still be open on 5th rather than relocated into the other half of El Corazon. I think it's pretty undeniable that a lot of the development in the surrounding areas like Belltown, Lower Queen Anne and arguably even Capitol Hill would not have happened if Amazon had not moved into SLU. I would say it's more of an indirect casualty of Amazon rather a direct casualty like, say, the Hurricane where Amazon itself (not Vulcan or some other real estate development company) literally bought up the whole block so that it could be torn down to make room for more offices.
posted by Pseudonymous Sockpuppet at 10:21 PM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Having lived in Seattle a little over 10 years I feel like a longtimer and a bearer of ancient Seattle law compared with most of my friends and coworkers.
I've lived in Pittsburgh since the '80s and I still get asked, "why did you move here?" I'll probably die here in thirty years after sixty in Western PA and still not qualify as a "Real Pittsburgher".
posted by octothorpe at 5:00 AM on September 8, 2017
I've lived in Pittsburgh since the '80s and I still get asked, "why did you move here?" I'll probably die here in thirty years after sixty in Western PA and still not qualify as a "Real Pittsburgher".
posted by octothorpe at 5:00 AM on September 8, 2017
I've lived in Pittsburgh since the '80s and I still get asked, "why did you move here?" I'll probably die here in thirty years after sixty in Western PA and still not qualify as a "Real Pittsburgher".
As far as I'm concerned, if you give directions based on landmarks that aren't there anymore and include no references to actual street names or numbers, you're a real Pittsburgher, no matter where you were born.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:49 AM on September 8, 2017 [5 favorites]
As far as I'm concerned, if you give directions based on landmarks that aren't there anymore and include no references to actual street names or numbers, you're a real Pittsburgher, no matter where you were born.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:49 AM on September 8, 2017 [5 favorites]
Research Triangle Park is already putting its proposal together.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:37 AM on September 8, 2017
posted by Rock Steady at 6:37 AM on September 8, 2017
Richard Florida (yes, I know) made a fairly compelling case on Twitter that it could be D.C. Bezos recently bought a $23-million home there, and he owns the Washington Post, which suggests a desire to influence the national conversation. D.C. has decent public transit and is easily accessible to other cities by train. There's plenty of tech talent there already. It would be a bit boring, but I could see it being D.C. or somewhere in the suburbs.
On the other hand, Florida is reliably wrong about everything, so that's a point against it.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:43 AM on September 8, 2017
On the other hand, Florida is reliably wrong about everything, so that's a point against it.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:43 AM on September 8, 2017
My bet is on Toronto. They already have about 1500 employees there
I am willing to bet it will be Canada, either; Toronto for the logistics or Kitchener/Waterloo for techs... Just like Microsoft's large BC campus - for the same reasons, to obtain and keep tech talent that otherwise wouldn't be able to get into the US.
posted by jkaczor at 7:42 AM on September 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
I am willing to bet it will be Canada, either; Toronto for the logistics or Kitchener/Waterloo for techs... Just like Microsoft's large BC campus - for the same reasons, to obtain and keep tech talent that otherwise wouldn't be able to get into the US.
posted by jkaczor at 7:42 AM on September 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
> Toronto for the logistics
If they build in the Guelph/Cambridge axis of the G-W-C research triangle, they're less than an hour or so from Pearson Airport on the 401. Given lands costs, I doubt TO has that huge an advantage.
posted by bonehead at 8:57 AM on September 8, 2017
If they build in the Guelph/Cambridge axis of the G-W-C research triangle, they're less than an hour or so from Pearson Airport on the 401. Given lands costs, I doubt TO has that huge an advantage.
posted by bonehead at 8:57 AM on September 8, 2017
Yep, have been using it daily for the last 4 years and many years before that and stand by my statement.
OK sure, right back at you. You're wrong. Now that I'm last, I win. Or you could cite some evidence to support your position. In what ways is MBTA not a real transit system?
posted by scalefree at 9:11 AM on September 8, 2017
OK sure, right back at you. You're wrong. Now that I'm last, I win. Or you could cite some evidence to support your position. In what ways is MBTA not a real transit system?
posted by scalefree at 9:11 AM on September 8, 2017
> Of course, in true Amazon fashion they'll probably just go for whoever gives the most tax breaks, and it will turn out to be in a swamp or something...
Amazon's New Headquarters Should Be in Hell
Amazon's New Headquarters Should Be in Hell
Instead, Amazon is holding a multinational audition, asking for cities to submit proposals to win the exciting opportunity to host tens of thousands of tech nerds. Amazon wants to know that cities have an educated work force and good transportation networks, sure, but they don’t need the cities themselves to tell them that. What they are asking cities to submit are economic incentives. They are asking for tax breaks. They are in essence conducting a giant beauty pageant in which desperate municipal governments attempt to offer them the most lucrative possible package of public resources. This is not unlike a rich man standing up in the midst of a crowd of beggars and yelling, “Who will massage my feet for the lowest price?” [...]posted by tonycpsu at 10:06 AM on September 8, 2017 [9 favorites]
So when you see your civic leaders lining up to grovel at Amazon’s feet and offer countless millions in incentives to host their headquarters, keep in mind what is actually happening here. An extremely wealthy and powerful private corporation is extorting money from the public by dividing and conquering. This has been a successful strategy for many tyrants over the years. But we don’t need to act like they’re doing any of us a favor.
> Amazon's New Headquarters Should Be in Hell
I know people like to poke fun at Ottawa, but surely it isn't that bad.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:35 AM on September 8, 2017 [4 favorites]
I know people like to poke fun at Ottawa, but surely it isn't that bad.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:35 AM on September 8, 2017 [4 favorites]
Mexico is also North America
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:24 PM on September 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:24 PM on September 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
Even as Amazon seeks a second HQ, rumors point to four big new Seattle office leases for tech giant
posted by Artw at 7:25 AM on September 9, 2017
posted by Artw at 7:25 AM on September 9, 2017
Mexico is also North America
I hate how racist it is, even in a progressive site like MF, that we don't even think of Mexico.
Thanks for pointing this out.
posted by jillithd at 6:51 AM on September 11, 2017
I hate how racist it is, even in a progressive site like MF, that we don't even think of Mexico.
Thanks for pointing this out.
posted by jillithd at 6:51 AM on September 11, 2017
> Amazon employees on average only work there for a year and a half before dropping out
What I've heard (and don't have the stats on-hand to back this up) is that the average Amazon employee has been there for that long -- a reflection of how much hiring they've done. It's tenure, not turnover.
> I hate how racist it is, even in a progressive site like MF, that we don't even think of Mexico
If it makes you feel better: Mexico was suggested pretty early on in the thread.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:34 AM on September 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
What I've heard (and don't have the stats on-hand to back this up) is that the average Amazon employee has been there for that long -- a reflection of how much hiring they've done. It's tenure, not turnover.
> I hate how racist it is, even in a progressive site like MF, that we don't even think of Mexico
If it makes you feel better: Mexico was suggested pretty early on in the thread.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:34 AM on September 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
Understanding Amazon's “HQ2” Announcement:
I used to work in business and operations for a division of Microsoft; I was involved in the strategy, selection and setup of several new sites, and I worked with people across the company who did similar work. Based on that knowledge, here’s my take on what Amazon is doing, why they’re doing it, and the most likely candidate cities for their new campus.posted by vibratory manner of working at 6:01 PM on September 11, 2017 [4 favorites]
Amazon Is Not Your Newly Cheating Lover, Seattle. It's a Massive Business With a Low-Tax Agenda.
posted by Artw at 10:33 AM on September 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:33 AM on September 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
Tucson has gone the grand-gesture rom-com route and is sending a twenty-one foot saguaro cactus to Seattle to grab Bezos's attention.
(Saguaros are protected! If I wanted to remove one from my yard, I'd have to get permission! And that's great, I love saguaros and want to protect them. Protect them HERE. I guess the underlying message is that Tucson doesn't care about the livelihood of its natural resources, so come on down, Amazon, you'll fit in fine.
Or perhaps the cactus is migrating itself to a better life in a sanctuary city. I guess I could look at it that way.)
posted by mixedmetaphors at 12:15 PM on September 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
(Saguaros are protected! If I wanted to remove one from my yard, I'd have to get permission! And that's great, I love saguaros and want to protect them. Protect them HERE. I guess the underlying message is that Tucson doesn't care about the livelihood of its natural resources, so come on down, Amazon, you'll fit in fine.
Or perhaps the cactus is migrating itself to a better life in a sanctuary city. I guess I could look at it that way.)
posted by mixedmetaphors at 12:15 PM on September 13, 2017 [2 favorites]
That's an excellent link, vibratory manner of working. One thing that it alluded to, by mentioning that Amazon wants two co-equal HQ's, but that it did not say directly, is that this is likely part of their disaster recovery plan. Imagine if the HQ was in Houston or Tampa; they can't afford to lose business or market share while their employees are busy protecting life and limb. I used to work for a bank here in California that had fully backed up operations centers in five different states just for this reason.
posted by vignettist at 6:51 PM on September 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by vignettist at 6:51 PM on September 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
Gregory Scruggs/Reuters: Commentary: Why no city should want Amazon’s HQ2
Mayors and civic leaders are prepared to offer tax breaks, development-ready sites, new aviation connections, and fiber optic lines to lure up to 50,000 highly-paid employees for the $5 billion campus. But they should be careful what they wish for: winning the Amazon beauty pageant might be the ultimate pyrrhic victory, especially if the winner offers too many subsidies. As The Brookings Institution argues, “State and local governments… have proven over and over that they are all too willing to give up their tax base for growth that would have occurred somewhere anyway.”posted by ZeusHumms at 6:42 AM on September 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
Although plenty of ailing metropolitan economies could use a shot in the arm, bringing in Amazon is like a heroin injection; it's a sharp spike that can balloon housing prices and flip entire neighborhoods in the blink of an eye. While a handful of local business owners and real estate developers profit handsomely, the city as a whole can suffer. Some of the challenges, like the skyrocketing cost of housing in Seattle, can be measured. Others, like a loss of local character, are intangible but no less important to many current residents. Seattle's experience as the country's leading company town - 19 percent of the prime office space in Seattle is occupied by Amazon, the highest ratio for one company in any American city - offers several warnings for why cities shouldn't be desperately seeking Amazon.
So it's been a whirlwind couple of days in Seattle politics. Since Amazon made this announcement:
On Tuesday, a fifth allegation of child sex abuse was made against Mayor Murray. This was finally enough to get him to resign. He announced it on Tuesday. resigned on Wednesday at 5pm. Good riddance. Immediately upon Murray's resignation, Bruce Harrell, the council president, became mayor.
Friday, now-Mayor Harrell had a press conference to announce whether he'd stay on as mayor through November or not (he won't be)- and oh by the way here's four executive orders I've pulled together in the 48 hours I've been mayor.
One of those executive orders sets up a task force focusing on business retention and instructs the task force to respond to the HQ2 RFP. So Seattle is now on the list of cities trying to land HQ2. It's very strange, and I can't really imagine how anyone thinks that's going to work.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:47 AM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
On Tuesday, a fifth allegation of child sex abuse was made against Mayor Murray. This was finally enough to get him to resign. He announced it on Tuesday. resigned on Wednesday at 5pm. Good riddance. Immediately upon Murray's resignation, Bruce Harrell, the council president, became mayor.
Friday, now-Mayor Harrell had a press conference to announce whether he'd stay on as mayor through November or not (he won't be)- and oh by the way here's four executive orders I've pulled together in the 48 hours I've been mayor.
One of those executive orders sets up a task force focusing on business retention and instructs the task force to respond to the HQ2 RFP. So Seattle is now on the list of cities trying to land HQ2. It's very strange, and I can't really imagine how anyone thinks that's going to work.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:47 AM on September 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
[CITY] checks all the boxes. It’s a large, amenity-rich city whose metro area population is well over 1 million. It’s also an unusually well-educated city, with plentiful college graduates and a local business culture rich with experience in both engineering and retail with companies like [TECH GIANT], [SERVICE MULTINATIONAL], and (historically) [LEADING AEROSPACE MANUFACTURER] headquartered there. Its airport, though modest in size, serves all the major international business destinations — places like London, Tokyo, Beijing, Shanghai, Frankfurt, Seoul, Dubai, Taipei, Paris, Toronto, and Shenzhen.Seattle should make a pitch to be Amazon’s 2nd headquarters
There’s a thriving cultural scene, [STATE]’s public schools are relatively high performing, and the kind of young, affluent, educated workers Amazon is looking to attract will appreciate the opportunity to live in a culturally progressive state that also doesn’t levy an income tax.
[CITY] isn’t thought of as one of America’s great mass transit cities, but it is investing heavily in expansion of its offerings and the situation is set to continue improving.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:05 PM on September 26, 2017
Not sure "zone for taller buildings" is really the miracle cure he thinks it is there. Firstly there's already a shitload of construction outside of downtown, secondly sooner or later you run into Seattle's geographical constraints.
posted by Artw at 5:27 PM on September 26, 2017
posted by Artw at 5:27 PM on September 26, 2017
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posted by phack at 8:46 AM on September 7, 2017 [2 favorites]