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October 5, 2017 2:59 PM Subscribe
BuzzFeed's Joseph Bernstein tells the story of Here's How Breitbart And Milo Smuggled Nazi and White Nationalist Ideas Into The Mainstream. Reporting from a cache of Breitbart documents, the story depicts in exhaustive detail how white supremacist thought was laundered through Milo Yiannopoulos and repackaged for Breitbart's audience, with stops along the way to discuss the hidden support Milo received from tech workers and media figures, the role of the Mercer family in backing the entire operation, Nazi-themed passwords, and Steve Bannon, who emails Yiannopoulos to describe mosques as "ALL ‘factories of hate.'" Not to mention the video of Yiannopoulos performing a karaoke version of "America the Beautiful" for well known white supremacists doing Nazi salutes.
video of Yiannopoulos performing a karaoke version of "America the Beautiful" for well known white supremacists doing Nazi salutes
News Flash: you are the baddies.
posted by The Tensor at 3:06 PM on October 5, 2017 [31 favorites]
News Flash: you are the baddies.
posted by The Tensor at 3:06 PM on October 5, 2017 [31 favorites]
Similarly, The Stranger recently did a big post of them sneaking into a major Seattle White Nationalist conference, with a lot of it getting into the overlap between white young tech workers & white supremacy.
Much bleaker is Dr. Johnson’s Seattle-suitable, “secret agent” racism plan. Basically, white nationalists meet in secret at conventions like Northwest Forum while paying “lip service to diversity” at their day jobs. They move into positions of power where they can hire other racists and keep non-whites from getting into the company. Two years ago, this method would have seemed like a total joke, but these guys really do mostly work in tech, and they were doing a lot of networking.
This is hugely frustrating/scary stuff to think about.
posted by CrystalDave at 3:07 PM on October 5, 2017 [78 favorites]
Much bleaker is Dr. Johnson’s Seattle-suitable, “secret agent” racism plan. Basically, white nationalists meet in secret at conventions like Northwest Forum while paying “lip service to diversity” at their day jobs. They move into positions of power where they can hire other racists and keep non-whites from getting into the company. Two years ago, this method would have seemed like a total joke, but these guys really do mostly work in tech, and they were doing a lot of networking.
This is hugely frustrating/scary stuff to think about.
posted by CrystalDave at 3:07 PM on October 5, 2017 [78 favorites]
Sarah Jeong Twitter thread highlighting some of the behind-the-scenes support Milo/Breitbart received from supposedly liberal colleagues from outlets such as Broadly (Vice's women's channel), Slate, as well as a contributor for HBO's Silicon Valley.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:10 PM on October 5, 2017 [31 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:10 PM on October 5, 2017 [31 favorites]
What we're seeing here is only a difference in degree, not kind, from what we saw with the Tea Party. The same astro-turfing, racial resentment, and scapegoating, but with some younger, fresher faces in the foreground. Racist memes on 4chan are just the next level of racist signs at town hall events. The knobs are all turned up a bit, so the threat is greater, but this is just an extension of the GOP's project to permanently control the entire political system and hand the keys over to the wealthy.
The greatest trick these jokers pulled was convincing so many people that it was something new, when it's really nothing but a Poochie-fied Tea Party.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:11 PM on October 5, 2017 [37 favorites]
The greatest trick these jokers pulled was convincing so many people that it was something new, when it's really nothing but a Poochie-fied Tea Party.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:11 PM on October 5, 2017 [37 favorites]
Twitter thread from Mary Emily O'Hara:
Re: @BuzzFeed's Milo story. I am not at all shocked that Broadly/VICE editor Mitchell Sunderland was involved. I worked with him.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:13 PM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Re: @BuzzFeed's Milo story. I am not at all shocked that Broadly/VICE editor Mitchell Sunderland was involved. I worked with him.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:13 PM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm going to have to wait until I'm in a better place emotionally to read this. Maybe I'll be ready in 2024 or so?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:14 PM on October 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:14 PM on October 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
Just finished reading this. I see that Dan Lyons has scrubbed his website and social media in the last few minutes.
posted by figurant at 3:17 PM on October 5, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by figurant at 3:17 PM on October 5, 2017 [17 favorites]
> Just finished reading this. I see that Dan Lyons has scrubbed his website and social media in the last few minutes.
Brave Sir Lyons ran away.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:18 PM on October 5, 2017 [74 favorites]
Brave Sir Lyons ran away.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:18 PM on October 5, 2017 [74 favorites]
wait. Vice has a women's channel? and it's called... Broadly? haha you guys are joking me right, what a bunch of merry pranksters these Mefites are
(googles)
sonuvabitch
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 3:23 PM on October 5, 2017 [48 favorites]
(googles)
sonuvabitch
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 3:23 PM on October 5, 2017 [48 favorites]
Unfortunately O'Hara deleted her twitter thread (apparently someone spooked her with mentions of NDAs). :(
posted by longdaysjourney at 3:27 PM on October 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by longdaysjourney at 3:27 PM on October 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
The Mercers are just the worst. A hundred years from now a history book will call them "The Family That Ruined America."
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 3:28 PM on October 5, 2017 [29 favorites]
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 3:28 PM on October 5, 2017 [29 favorites]
I work in tech and occassionally run across these little shits. They're still pretty hidden at my company as we're wildly liberal across the board. So of course they're playing the "persecuted minority" card. Makes my eyes roll so hard I'm worried about my optic nerves.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:29 PM on October 5, 2017 [29 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:29 PM on October 5, 2017 [29 favorites]
Sarah Jeong Twitter thread highlighting some of the behind-the-scenes support Milo/Breitbart received from supposedly liberal colleagues from outlets such as Broadly (Vice's women's channel), Slate, as well as a contributor for HBO's Silicon Valley.
woooah.
It's really cool how the former managing editor of a "women's" vertical sicced Milo on Lindy West
//
It's really funny how someone who writes a "gotta see both sides" column about Gamergate goes on to pass info about Anita's life to Milo
//
"gotta see both sides": truly, a neutral position that throws up absolutely no red flags whatsoe
In case you were wondering why people seem so down on the "what about THE DISCOURSE" && "why can't we take a neutral, evenhanded understanding of legit differences??" complaints recently, everywhere.
It gets used as a pose to hide real actions.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:32 PM on October 5, 2017 [96 favorites]
woooah.
It's really cool how the former managing editor of a "women's" vertical sicced Milo on Lindy West
//
It's really funny how someone who writes a "gotta see both sides" column about Gamergate goes on to pass info about Anita's life to Milo
//
"gotta see both sides": truly, a neutral position that throws up absolutely no red flags whatsoe
In case you were wondering why people seem so down on the "what about THE DISCOURSE" && "why can't we take a neutral, evenhanded understanding of legit differences??" complaints recently, everywhere.
It gets used as a pose to hide real actions.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:32 PM on October 5, 2017 [96 favorites]
They move into positions of power where they can hire other racists and keep non-whites from getting into the company.
Racism is literally a virus. Or a cancer.
posted by dilaudid at 3:32 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Racism is literally a virus. Or a cancer.
posted by dilaudid at 3:32 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Unlike viruses or cancer, contracting racism is easily avoidable, by not being racist.
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:36 PM on October 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:36 PM on October 5, 2017 [15 favorites]
Oh ok, racism solved, just don't be racist.
posted by dilaudid at 3:37 PM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by dilaudid at 3:37 PM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's worse. Nobody decides to get cancer.
posted by hilberseimer at 3:38 PM on October 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by hilberseimer at 3:38 PM on October 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
The Nazi passwords are the point where I completely lost it at the sheer horribleness of it all, in case you're wondering.
Like the Weinstein story, this is one of those "everybody knows" situations where the signs were all right there, but the story isn't really there until someone has done the work to demonstrate "no, actually this person emails with Nazis, has Nazi passwords, and has people doing Nazi salutes in his face." Details make a huge difference, even about stuff we already should have known. I'm so damn curious where the emails came from though. It sounds like an incredibly toxic work environment, and I can't help but wonder whether it was a disgruntled insider.
posted by zachlipton at 3:40 PM on October 5, 2017 [31 favorites]
Like the Weinstein story, this is one of those "everybody knows" situations where the signs were all right there, but the story isn't really there until someone has done the work to demonstrate "no, actually this person emails with Nazis, has Nazi passwords, and has people doing Nazi salutes in his face." Details make a huge difference, even about stuff we already should have known. I'm so damn curious where the emails came from though. It sounds like an incredibly toxic work environment, and I can't help but wonder whether it was a disgruntled insider.
posted by zachlipton at 3:40 PM on October 5, 2017 [31 favorites]
Basically, white nationalists meet in secret at conventions like Northwest Forum while paying “lip service to diversity” at their day jobs.
As someone who's been on the street interacting with strangers about politics in this area, let me cosign this 1000%. They look perfectly normal, then lean in with a smile on their face and utter things you can barely believe anyone thinks in 2017. Amazon and Microsoft are particularly lousy with them.
posted by corb at 3:41 PM on October 5, 2017 [93 favorites]
As someone who's been on the street interacting with strangers about politics in this area, let me cosign this 1000%. They look perfectly normal, then lean in with a smile on their face and utter things you can barely believe anyone thinks in 2017. Amazon and Microsoft are particularly lousy with them.
posted by corb at 3:41 PM on October 5, 2017 [93 favorites]
Saying racism like cancer seems to imply that there's nothing anyone can do about becoming a racist. But I think I was parsing your statement wrongly and you mean the racists discussed here are infecting organizations on the dl. So it's not racism that's the virus but racists.
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:43 PM on October 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:43 PM on October 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
I've got a pretty strong stomach but this is a tough read. These people are the fucking worst. This part jumped out at me:
posted by adept256 at 3:45 PM on October 5, 2017 [35 favorites]
Yiannopoulos wrote of Mahoney in an email to another member of his staff. “His entire Twitter persona will have to change dramatically once he gets the job.”They're totally aware of how awful they are because it's by design. You can't even pity them for being ignorant and delusional, or just genuinely expressing how awful they are. They've deliberately fine tuned their public facing persona, as above, to be as provocative as possible, without going full nazi and setting off alarms.
posted by adept256 at 3:45 PM on October 5, 2017 [35 favorites]
“I’m easing everyone in gently,” Yiannopoulos responded.
“Probably beats my ‘bite the pillow, I’m going in dry’ strategy,” Saucier wrote back.
...and then Milo wrote Gary Stu RPF for the rest of the evening.
posted by elsietheeel at 3:48 PM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
“Probably beats my ‘bite the pillow, I’m going in dry’ strategy,” Saucier wrote back.
...and then Milo wrote Gary Stu RPF for the rest of the evening.
posted by elsietheeel at 3:48 PM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
More than that. The troll is precisely that they are setting off all the alarms but getting away with it, proving the impotence of their adversaries.
posted by jaduncan at 3:50 PM on October 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by jaduncan at 3:50 PM on October 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
> The greatest trick these jokers pulled was convincing so many people that it was something new, when it's really nothing but a Poochie-fied Tea Party.
It cannot be stressed enough that, at its core, this is the same network of assholes we've been dealing with the whole time. Ctrl+F the article for "GamerGate" for example.
In some ways, it's a relief to know how publicly available the documentation is on these professionally incestuous human "factories of hate", because I've never wanted to fumigate roaches so badly as I do right now.
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 3:50 PM on October 5, 2017 [58 favorites]
It cannot be stressed enough that, at its core, this is the same network of assholes we've been dealing with the whole time. Ctrl+F the article for "GamerGate" for example.
In some ways, it's a relief to know how publicly available the documentation is on these professionally incestuous human "factories of hate", because I've never wanted to fumigate roaches so badly as I do right now.
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 3:50 PM on October 5, 2017 [58 favorites]
Auerbach also locked his Twitter account.
This is not unsurprising to anybody familiar with m*l*'s time as a nasty little Iron Cross-wearing hanger-on to the London tech scene who outsourced his bylined work to his own little hangers-on and stiffed the other writers who were craven or stupid enough to work for him. It says something about how toxic 2010s tech culture plus toxic American political media culture plus unlimited piles of toxic Mercer cash can turn a small-time shitballoon into a big-time shitballoon, as if America were a bell jar with the air sucked out.
The biggest surprise is that Bannon writes like a 4channer. Also, as Chris Hayes said, only a handful of emails have been made public from people who worked with the current administration or its election campaign, and they're all atrocious.
posted by holgate at 3:51 PM on October 5, 2017 [29 favorites]
This is not unsurprising to anybody familiar with m*l*'s time as a nasty little Iron Cross-wearing hanger-on to the London tech scene who outsourced his bylined work to his own little hangers-on and stiffed the other writers who were craven or stupid enough to work for him. It says something about how toxic 2010s tech culture plus toxic American political media culture plus unlimited piles of toxic Mercer cash can turn a small-time shitballoon into a big-time shitballoon, as if America were a bell jar with the air sucked out.
The biggest surprise is that Bannon writes like a 4channer. Also, as Chris Hayes said, only a handful of emails have been made public from people who worked with the current administration or its election campaign, and they're all atrocious.
posted by holgate at 3:51 PM on October 5, 2017 [29 favorites]
Wow. Does Buzzfeed have a PTSD fund I can donate to?
or draw from. that article. JFC
posted by adept256 at 3:54 PM on October 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
or draw from. that article. JFC
posted by adept256 at 3:54 PM on October 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
Fantastic reporting. Kudos to Buzzfeed.
posted by feste at 3:56 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by feste at 3:56 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Gosh. If only people listened when it was women in the gaming industry being harassed.
Mathowie tweeted this the other day and I can't stop thinking about it: "Kathy Sierra warned us all ten years ago. We did nothing and the cycle repeated until our goofy web tools brought us to the brink of war."
We had so many warnings about who these people were.
I also just want to emphasize, yet again, a guy who was until quite recently senior advisor to the President of the United States is quoted in here as describing all mosques as "factories of hate," and that's damn horrifying. That we're not at all surprised about it, that's the part that will keep me up at night.
posted by zachlipton at 3:57 PM on October 5, 2017 [109 favorites]
Mathowie tweeted this the other day and I can't stop thinking about it: "Kathy Sierra warned us all ten years ago. We did nothing and the cycle repeated until our goofy web tools brought us to the brink of war."
We had so many warnings about who these people were.
I also just want to emphasize, yet again, a guy who was until quite recently senior advisor to the President of the United States is quoted in here as describing all mosques as "factories of hate," and that's damn horrifying. That we're not at all surprised about it, that's the part that will keep me up at night.
posted by zachlipton at 3:57 PM on October 5, 2017 [109 favorites]
Dan Lyons has been an opportunistic POS since back when he was rooting for SCO to sue Linux out of existence.
posted by PenDevil at 3:58 PM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by PenDevil at 3:58 PM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
The most shocking thing I learned from the article is that Yiannopoulos is married to a black man. I don’t have a problem with that, but I would think there would be some awkwardness at social gatherings.
I too am not sure cancer is the best analogy for alt-right toxicity. Maybe necrotizing fasciitis instead? Charles Pierce has pretty much locked up prion disease as much as he uses it to describe the GOP.
posted by TedW at 4:00 PM on October 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
I too am not sure cancer is the best analogy for alt-right toxicity. Maybe necrotizing fasciitis instead? Charles Pierce has pretty much locked up prion disease as much as he uses it to describe the GOP.
posted by TedW at 4:00 PM on October 5, 2017 [13 favorites]
> They look perfectly normal, then lean in with a smile on their face and utter things you can barely believe anyone thinks in 2017.
It's depressingly easy to believe, sadly.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:00 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's depressingly easy to believe, sadly.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:00 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
"It's all about ethics in games journalism" is just 14 words under a different guise. But as mentioned above, it was fine and dandy when it was just women in gaming being targeted.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 4:01 PM on October 5, 2017 [30 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 4:01 PM on October 5, 2017 [30 favorites]
It's not just people; ideas spread like viruses too. I mean, just in general, but also specifically these ideas. I'll try to find some literature so this isn't all out my ass, but you can see these guys in the story dressing up their ideology so it doesn't seem as dangerous, so it gets through the metaphorical cell wall. You can see them creating a, a gradient, for people to escalate along at their own pace. Deliberately.
One of the antifa principles is "no platform," no tolerance of Nazism, not by an inch, no matter how innocent it seems. Because it will always escalate to its logical conclusion. Because the people involved in this ideology want it to escalate. If you give them an inch, they'll take it and keep pushing. I thought that was an exaggeration. But I was wrong.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 4:05 PM on October 5, 2017 [77 favorites]
One of the antifa principles is "no platform," no tolerance of Nazism, not by an inch, no matter how innocent it seems. Because it will always escalate to its logical conclusion. Because the people involved in this ideology want it to escalate. If you give them an inch, they'll take it and keep pushing. I thought that was an exaggeration. But I was wrong.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 4:05 PM on October 5, 2017 [77 favorites]
Oh dear lord. Please, Dan: go away.
posted by jeffehobbs at 4:06 PM on October 5, 2017
posted by jeffehobbs at 4:06 PM on October 5, 2017
The only thing I found remotely surprising about this is that Steve Bannon writes his emails in the style of a texting teenager.
posted by brundlefly at 4:08 PM on October 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 4:08 PM on October 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
Holy crap. These are truly, truly terrible people.
posted by SisterHavana at 4:09 PM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by SisterHavana at 4:09 PM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
They're totally aware of how awful they are because it's by design.
This is the bit that shows that so well:
posted by zachlipton at 4:15 PM on October 5, 2017 [47 favorites]
This is the bit that shows that so well:
Editing a September 2016 Yiannopoulos speech, Marlow approved a joke about “shekels” but added that “you can’t even flirt with OKing gas chamber tweets,” asking for such a line to be removed.Gas chambers are a no, but shekel references are fine. And this isn't just Milo up to his usual trolling, this is the entire Breitbart editorial system finely calibrating exactly how openly white supremacist they want to appear.
posted by zachlipton at 4:15 PM on October 5, 2017 [47 favorites]
As a non-white woman about to enter the tech industry... I could barely get through that The Stranger article. Every time I convince myself that entering this field was the right decision it seems like there's another major news story that says otherwise. There's a pretty decent chance that I'll be working at Amazon in Seattle, too, so just... fuck.
posted by perplexion at 4:16 PM on October 5, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by perplexion at 4:16 PM on October 5, 2017 [20 favorites]
And a lot of the, like, Tina Fey liberal cohort will say "just ignore them and let them scream into the void. He just wants attention, if you get outraged you're playing into it."
And this story shows that's not true either. Milo personally is a troll, but the rest of the people named actually don't want mainstream attention. For all of them, the primary goal is to spread their ideology. And if nobody pushes back, they speak louder.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 4:19 PM on October 5, 2017 [85 favorites]
And this story shows that's not true either. Milo personally is a troll, but the rest of the people named actually don't want mainstream attention. For all of them, the primary goal is to spread their ideology. And if nobody pushes back, they speak louder.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 4:19 PM on October 5, 2017 [85 favorites]
good ol boys club turned up to 11. here to confirm corbs experience.
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 4:22 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 4:22 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
"Here's How Breitbart And Milo Smuggled Nazi and White Nationalist Ideas Into The Mainstream."Until you, as a nation, come to grips with the fact that "smuggled" is nothing more than a blame-avoiding euphemism for "painted an American flag on it and rode it down Main Street to the cheers of at least 1/3 of your population throwing ticker-tape", then you're destined to be stuck fighting the last rear-guard battle of a 150-year-old civil war…
posted by Pinback at 4:25 PM on October 5, 2017 [98 favorites]
The "white working class" is not and has never been the base of fascism--the white petit bourgeois/labor aristocracy is.
posted by The Horse You Rode In On at 4:27 PM on October 5, 2017 [49 favorites]
posted by The Horse You Rode In On at 4:27 PM on October 5, 2017 [49 favorites]
I'm really understanding the full depth of the phrase "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance" these days.
Meanwhile the 1% pays for all these diversions (out of their pocket change) as they steal the future.
posted by MikeWarot at 4:33 PM on October 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
Meanwhile the 1% pays for all these diversions (out of their pocket change) as they steal the future.
posted by MikeWarot at 4:33 PM on October 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
Sorry for a potential derail, but I honestly don't know which thread this should go to. Anyway, is it possible that this story on Breitbart was what caused today's outcry about the Senate intelligence committee needing to investigate "fake news"? Because Bannon was surely contacted for comments on the story before publication and would have been able to give the heads-up during a phone call with his favorite gal-pal. And it didn't sound like Trump was explicitly complaining about the Russia stories during his tirade...
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 4:38 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 4:38 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
me: maybe I should write more, try to publish stuff online, actually use my English degree, get paid for listicles about cute kittens!
also me: journalism and tech are a trash fire of bigotry and fake allies, Snopes is a lie and no one can be trusted, no ethical media consumption under white patriarchy
posted by nicebookrack at 4:39 PM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
also me: journalism and tech are a trash fire of bigotry and fake allies, Snopes is a lie and no one can be trusted, no ethical media consumption under white patriarchy
posted by nicebookrack at 4:39 PM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
You can see them creating a, a gradient, for people to escalate along at their own pace. Deliberately.
Who's showing up on Twitter to defend Auerbach and #fakenews this story? Why yes, it's the gummergumps, who've been riding along for the past few years.
posted by holgate at 5:14 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Who's showing up on Twitter to defend Auerbach and #fakenews this story? Why yes, it's the gummergumps, who've been riding along for the past few years.
posted by holgate at 5:14 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
Basically, white nationalists meet in secret at conventions like Northwest Forum while paying “lip service to diversity” at their day jobs.
As someone who's been on the street interacting with strangers about politics in this area, let me cosign this 1000%. They look perfectly normal, then lean in with a smile on their face and utter things you can barely believe anyone thinks in 2017. Amazon and Microsoft are particularly lousy with them.
welp, looks like i won't be dating white guys for a while without extreme vetting
posted by palomar at 5:37 PM on October 5, 2017 [19 favorites]
As someone who's been on the street interacting with strangers about politics in this area, let me cosign this 1000%. They look perfectly normal, then lean in with a smile on their face and utter things you can barely believe anyone thinks in 2017. Amazon and Microsoft are particularly lousy with them.
welp, looks like i won't be dating white guys for a while without extreme vetting
posted by palomar at 5:37 PM on October 5, 2017 [19 favorites]
Because some folks are new here: Gamergate previously on MetaFilter.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:38 PM on October 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 5:38 PM on October 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
Who's showing up on Twitter to defend Auerbach and #fakenews this story? Why yes, it's the gummergumps
Idk who in the nightmare elven fuck gummergumps are, but I'm pretty comfortable using this as a Nazi litmus test. "Both sides," you say? "Let's hear them out?" You're a goddamn Nazi.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:43 PM on October 5, 2017 [18 favorites]
Idk who in the nightmare elven fuck gummergumps are, but I'm pretty comfortable using this as a Nazi litmus test. "Both sides," you say? "Let's hear them out?" You're a goddamn Nazi.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:43 PM on October 5, 2017 [18 favorites]
welp, looks like i won't be dating white guys for a while without extreme vetting
What would even suffice as vetting anymore? Like when could you be sure?
I don't sleep with them, but I have a white guy or two in my life. And now I'm wondering about all of them.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:45 PM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
What would even suffice as vetting anymore? Like when could you be sure?
I don't sleep with them, but I have a white guy or two in my life. And now I'm wondering about all of them.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:45 PM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Oh god reading this and I remember being at a queer Halloween party like two years ago, getting increasingly angry at a guy dressed as lady stoneheart telling me ignore the gumberguters it’s all just online kids and trolls and me responding with no it’s not just that, they’re building an ideaology that is terrifying and reactionary and they’re getting cozy with straight up fascists and all these werid-ass loners and refining thier techniques and presentation - if this isn’t stopped now we’re going to be dealing with something really fucking ugly in the future and it’s not going to be skinheads in compounds it’s gonna be nice white color, white professional people who can hide in plain sight.
I hate being right. And I hate that expose an upper class Nazi webring is a job you can have in 2017.
On the upside, hey look it’s one of the things Antifa does that isn’t protests: exposing fascist webs of influence and power.
(The real upside is that they thought Trump was going to be they’re path to mainstreaming thier ideas and post Chlarottesville they’re in retreat, but yeah name and shame my friends. If you can’t wear your ideaology in public maybe there’s a reason for that. I don’t hide my pins.)
posted by The Whelk at 5:58 PM on October 5, 2017 [76 favorites]
I hate being right. And I hate that expose an upper class Nazi webring is a job you can have in 2017.
On the upside, hey look it’s one of the things Antifa does that isn’t protests: exposing fascist webs of influence and power.
(The real upside is that they thought Trump was going to be they’re path to mainstreaming thier ideas and post Chlarottesville they’re in retreat, but yeah name and shame my friends. If you can’t wear your ideaology in public maybe there’s a reason for that. I don’t hide my pins.)
posted by The Whelk at 5:58 PM on October 5, 2017 [76 favorites]
It cannot be stressed enough that, at its core, this is the same network of assholes we've been dealing with the whole time. Ctrl+F the article for "GamerGate" for example.
I wish every journalist who diminished GamerGate as some internet lover's spat had to suffer some form of punishment for it. A slap in the face. A bucket of icewater over their heads in public. A moment on a stage where they get a spotlight as some booming voice says, "Guess what journalist completely ignored a massive campaign of harassment and threats to real, actual women? It's THIS GUY! Everybody give this asshole a hand!"
Something. Anything.
Women were driven into hiding. Toxic, hurtful assholes found ways to network and build themselves up into something even worse than they were before. And journalists couldn't be bothered to see anything more than "This dude says this lady slept with somebody."
It's 2017, the world is a raging garbage fire, and yes I still have bandwidth allotted specifically for my fury about this specific shit here.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:05 PM on October 5, 2017 [103 favorites]
I wish every journalist who diminished GamerGate as some internet lover's spat had to suffer some form of punishment for it. A slap in the face. A bucket of icewater over their heads in public. A moment on a stage where they get a spotlight as some booming voice says, "Guess what journalist completely ignored a massive campaign of harassment and threats to real, actual women? It's THIS GUY! Everybody give this asshole a hand!"
Something. Anything.
Women were driven into hiding. Toxic, hurtful assholes found ways to network and build themselves up into something even worse than they were before. And journalists couldn't be bothered to see anything more than "This dude says this lady slept with somebody."
It's 2017, the world is a raging garbage fire, and yes I still have bandwidth allotted specifically for my fury about this specific shit here.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:05 PM on October 5, 2017 [103 favorites]
will i be able to read this article without ending up hunting these people like the most dangerous game, pls advise
posted by poffin boffin at 6:06 PM on October 5, 2017 [40 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 6:06 PM on October 5, 2017 [40 favorites]
I just got to the Nazi passwords part of the article. Fer chrissake, Milo is a fucking straight-up cartoon villain.
posted by hanov3r at 6:07 PM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by hanov3r at 6:07 PM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
will i be able to read this article without ending up hunting these people like the most dangerous game, pls advise
No. I'm sharping sticks to place in pits around my Most Dangerous Game island as we speak.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:10 PM on October 5, 2017 [28 favorites]
No. I'm sharping sticks to place in pits around my Most Dangerous Game island as we speak.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:10 PM on October 5, 2017 [28 favorites]
If you can’t wear your ideology in public maybe there’s a reason for that.
They can't, until the moment they can, and then it's far too late.
Have we ever discussed the terrifyingly effective staging of "Tomorrow Belongs To Me" I once saw, in an otherwise-tepid revival of Cabaret? Virtually the entire song goes by as German villagers of various classes and population segments join the chorus, and lyrics that might initially have passed as some kind of pastoral become more and more clearly about National Awakening — and this is the very point at which the entire onstage ensemble pivots, and you can see the swastika armbands they've all been wearing all along.
The version in the movie is infinitely more naturalistic and sophisticated, and it presses the same point home without any of the more overt theatricality required for the stage. When this sort of rhetoric is left unchecked long enough, a kind of inflection point is reached past which those who once whispered are empowered to speak their hate aloud in the public square — at first with trepidation, then with more and more confidence as the timid shed all their reservations and the chorus grows.
At that point, history teaches us that the camps are not far off.
posted by adamgreenfield at 6:16 PM on October 5, 2017 [63 favorites]
They can't, until the moment they can, and then it's far too late.
Have we ever discussed the terrifyingly effective staging of "Tomorrow Belongs To Me" I once saw, in an otherwise-tepid revival of Cabaret? Virtually the entire song goes by as German villagers of various classes and population segments join the chorus, and lyrics that might initially have passed as some kind of pastoral become more and more clearly about National Awakening — and this is the very point at which the entire onstage ensemble pivots, and you can see the swastika armbands they've all been wearing all along.
The version in the movie is infinitely more naturalistic and sophisticated, and it presses the same point home without any of the more overt theatricality required for the stage. When this sort of rhetoric is left unchecked long enough, a kind of inflection point is reached past which those who once whispered are empowered to speak their hate aloud in the public square — at first with trepidation, then with more and more confidence as the timid shed all their reservations and the chorus grows.
At that point, history teaches us that the camps are not far off.
posted by adamgreenfield at 6:16 PM on October 5, 2017 [63 favorites]
I just got to the Nazi passwords part of the article. Fer chrissake, Milo is a fucking straight-up cartoon villain.
posted by hanov3r at 6:07 PM on October 5 [+] [!]
the klan also had funny ideas about passwords...
posted by eustatic at 6:25 PM on October 5, 2017
posted by hanov3r at 6:07 PM on October 5 [+] [!]
the klan also had funny ideas about passwords...
posted by eustatic at 6:25 PM on October 5, 2017
What a fucking terrifying article. It suggests to me sleeper cells of hugely affluent white male supremacists deeply embedded throughout the entire tech industry, supported by trillions of VC dollars.
Maybe that's why Peter Thiel gave his libertarian floating utopia idea up. Perhaps he realised he could do it on dry land instead, in the continental United States, at a tiny fraction of the cost. He needs the vast quantities of young blood from somewhere after all.
posted by derbs at 6:29 PM on October 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
Maybe that's why Peter Thiel gave his libertarian floating utopia idea up. Perhaps he realised he could do it on dry land instead, in the continental United States, at a tiny fraction of the cost. He needs the vast quantities of young blood from somewhere after all.
posted by derbs at 6:29 PM on October 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
"Are there enough of us here to come out of hiding and attack?" is quorum sensing when found in pathogens.
posted by clew at 6:33 PM on October 5, 2017 [58 favorites]
posted by clew at 6:33 PM on October 5, 2017 [58 favorites]
poffin: I got your Wicker Mans for you also extra kerosene for burning and of course matches
posted by rtha at 6:37 PM on October 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by rtha at 6:37 PM on October 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
So the interesting thing I'm seeing in this article, in between all the super-horrifying bits are the indications of ways these people can be fought. Milo mentions being afraid of being punched. He wants people off his team because they have become "laughingstocks" on the internet. When people are too overtly white supremacist, they have to be culled. And of course these are a bunch of paranoid, unstable personalities so they're all monitoring each other, recording each other, and backstabbing each other all the time.
So punch nazis and then make fun of them, basically. And expose their disgusting beliefs so they don't have plausible deniability, like this article does.
posted by threeturtles at 6:39 PM on October 5, 2017 [70 favorites]
So punch nazis and then make fun of them, basically. And expose their disgusting beliefs so they don't have plausible deniability, like this article does.
posted by threeturtles at 6:39 PM on October 5, 2017 [70 favorites]
And of course these are a bunch of paranoid, unstable personalities so they're all monitoring each other, recording each other, and backstabbing each other all the time.
It is absolutely striking to me how true this is of the Trump junta, as well of course of the current Tory party leadership in the UK. I don't recall nearly the same levels of internal dissension, disharmony and indiscipline in the W administration, possibly because the core conspirators had all been working together long enough to be able to reconstitute themselves thirty years down the line as Nixon 2.0.
But yeah — the level of secret taping, poking around each others' accounts, backstabbing and two-way badmouthing on display here is extraordinary.
posted by adamgreenfield at 6:44 PM on October 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
It is absolutely striking to me how true this is of the Trump junta, as well of course of the current Tory party leadership in the UK. I don't recall nearly the same levels of internal dissension, disharmony and indiscipline in the W administration, possibly because the core conspirators had all been working together long enough to be able to reconstitute themselves thirty years down the line as Nixon 2.0.
But yeah — the level of secret taping, poking around each others' accounts, backstabbing and two-way badmouthing on display here is extraordinary.
posted by adamgreenfield at 6:44 PM on October 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
"Are there enough of us here to come out of hiding and attack?" is quorum sensing when found in pathogens.
Yes, totally this. One of the onliest things I've enjoyed about this past eighteen months of unending collective nightmare is the number of concepts I only vaguely understood in college, from quorum sensing to repressive desublimation to "working toward the Fuhrer," for which I now have a concrete point of reference, and over which a greatly (if sadly) increased level of mastery.
posted by adamgreenfield at 6:50 PM on October 5, 2017 [16 favorites]
Yes, totally this. One of the onliest things I've enjoyed about this past eighteen months of unending collective nightmare is the number of concepts I only vaguely understood in college, from quorum sensing to repressive desublimation to "working toward the Fuhrer," for which I now have a concrete point of reference, and over which a greatly (if sadly) increased level of mastery.
posted by adamgreenfield at 6:50 PM on October 5, 2017 [16 favorites]
welp, looks like i won't be dating white guys for a while without extreme vetting
YUP. One of the things I said to myself when I was about halfway through the article was "I'm SO glad I'm married (to a white guy) already because I would have to give up dating white men entirely."
posted by threeturtles at 6:51 PM on October 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
YUP. One of the things I said to myself when I was about halfway through the article was "I'm SO glad I'm married (to a white guy) already because I would have to give up dating white men entirely."
posted by threeturtles at 6:51 PM on October 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I gotta say... I was somewhat ambivalent about the Nazi-punching antifa technique (as it, I enjoyed it, but I wasn't sure that I should), but this kind of article is making me think they are absolutely right.
posted by tavella at 6:53 PM on October 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by tavella at 6:53 PM on October 5, 2017 [10 favorites]
Dan Lyons' twitter is back up with a bunch of apologies (replying to different tweets):
- I apologized earlier today directly to Amber Discko and Zoe Quinn, for those emails. I feel awful about them. I wish I could take them back.
- I apologized to Amber and Zoe, at length, before the Buzzfeed story came out. I didn't remember those emails. I felt sick when I saw them.
- The emails were each one line long. I feel awful. I made a mistake. That's what I told Amber and Zoe when I apologized to them.
- I don't know Amber or Zoe. I didn't remember those emails until BFeed contacted me. When they did, I reached out to & apologized.
His personal website is still "in maintenance mode".
I'd been looking forward to reading his book too. No way in hell now.
posted by warble at 7:00 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
- I apologized earlier today directly to Amber Discko and Zoe Quinn, for those emails. I feel awful about them. I wish I could take them back.
- I apologized to Amber and Zoe, at length, before the Buzzfeed story came out. I didn't remember those emails. I felt sick when I saw them.
- The emails were each one line long. I feel awful. I made a mistake. That's what I told Amber and Zoe when I apologized to them.
- I don't know Amber or Zoe. I didn't remember those emails until BFeed contacted me. When they did, I reached out to & apologized.
His personal website is still "in maintenance mode".
I'd been looking forward to reading his book too. No way in hell now.
posted by warble at 7:00 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
As someone who's been on the street interacting with strangers about politics in this area, let me cosign this 1000%. They look perfectly normal, then lean in with a smile on their face and utter things you can barely believe anyone thinks in 2017. Amazon and Microsoft are particularly lousy with them.
Am I really living in a bubble?
Is it because I'm in Boston and in my 40's?
My circle of neighbors, co-workers, and friends has a large contingent of people with right of center leanings who for years have been talking like Mefites on account of the sheer awfulness of the Tea Party, never mind the rough beast that's been slouching around more recently. These altright shitheels are nowhere to be seen,
Is this what a generation gap looks like? Is Silicon Valley built on a cursed burying ground ?
posted by ocschwar at 7:03 PM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Remember that Nazi-punching doesn't have to mean seriously hurting them. When Richard Spencer got clocked on camera, he was fixing his stupid hair less than 30 seconds later. Antifa principles are not supposed to be vengeful or punitive - they're focused on harm reduction.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 7:03 PM on October 5, 2017 [25 favorites]
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 7:03 PM on October 5, 2017 [25 favorites]
I'm so sorry for my casual misogyny and transphobia that was so casual I don't even remember it, brah.
posted by Squeak Attack at 7:04 PM on October 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by Squeak Attack at 7:04 PM on October 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
Lyons isn't just apologizing, scroll down. He's retweeting previous stories and whining about buzfeed's unfair portrayal:
April 2016, re: age bias in tech. But Buzzfeed paints me as a crypto-alt-right?
April 2017: Bro-culture jerks and how they ruin startups. Does that sound right wing to you?
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:08 PM on October 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
April 2016, re: age bias in tech. But Buzzfeed paints me as a crypto-alt-right?
April 2017: Bro-culture jerks and how they ruin startups. Does that sound right wing to you?
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:08 PM on October 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
shut the fuck up dan
posted by adept256 at 7:10 PM on October 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 7:10 PM on October 5, 2017 [9 favorites]
Similarly, The Stranger recently did a big post of them sneaking into a major Seattle White Nationalist conference
This might seem super minor, but I want to point out the Nazis totally lied to the Freemasons about who they were when they rented the hall and are quoted admitting that in the article. I have kind of an urge to point that out because for a long time I was part of a gaming club that regularly rents that hall. It is super, super fucking icky to know something like that went down in their (formerly our) gaming space. I went into immediate WTF mode when I saw the header, because I thought, "Wait, OUR Freemasons hall?" even though I haven't been there in like two years. But no, they lied to the management company.
Also, per a follow-up from the Stranger, the Freemasons are looking to donate the rental money to an anti-hate group and their only concern now is which one to pick.
I know it's a minor thing in the scope of "Oh god who do I know in this town who might be a Nazi?" but at the same time it feels kind of reflective of the same. And gross. So gross.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:11 PM on October 5, 2017 [34 favorites]
This might seem super minor, but I want to point out the Nazis totally lied to the Freemasons about who they were when they rented the hall and are quoted admitting that in the article. I have kind of an urge to point that out because for a long time I was part of a gaming club that regularly rents that hall. It is super, super fucking icky to know something like that went down in their (formerly our) gaming space. I went into immediate WTF mode when I saw the header, because I thought, "Wait, OUR Freemasons hall?" even though I haven't been there in like two years. But no, they lied to the management company.
Also, per a follow-up from the Stranger, the Freemasons are looking to donate the rental money to an anti-hate group and their only concern now is which one to pick.
I know it's a minor thing in the scope of "Oh god who do I know in this town who might be a Nazi?" but at the same time it feels kind of reflective of the same. And gross. So gross.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:11 PM on October 5, 2017 [34 favorites]
- I apologized earlier today directly to Amber Discko and Zoe Quinn, for those emails. I feel awful about them. I wish I could take them back.
Zoe says no.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:12 PM on October 5, 2017 [37 favorites]
Zoe says no.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:12 PM on October 5, 2017 [37 favorites]
And, yes, we can still see your right wing flirtations, Dan. The alt-right isn't the whole show.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:16 PM on October 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:16 PM on October 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
- I apologized earlier today directly to Amber Discko and Zoe Quinn, for those emails.
did he now
edit: jinx
posted by postcommunism at 7:27 PM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
did he now
edit: jinx
posted by postcommunism at 7:27 PM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
although telling that we both immediately checked her twitter to confirm (and lo, he had lied)
posted by postcommunism at 7:28 PM on October 5, 2017
posted by postcommunism at 7:28 PM on October 5, 2017
Am I really living in a bubble?
Is it because I'm in Boston and in my 40's?
I'm on the North Shore and today I had a college-age patron come into the library to pick up a book. The weather has been weird of late and we chatted briefly about that before I went to go get her book from the back room.
It was Milo's book. I shut the candor down. She noticed.
And smirked.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:31 PM on October 5, 2017 [57 favorites]
Is it because I'm in Boston and in my 40's?
I'm on the North Shore and today I had a college-age patron come into the library to pick up a book. The weather has been weird of late and we chatted briefly about that before I went to go get her book from the back room.
It was Milo's book. I shut the candor down. She noticed.
And smirked.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:31 PM on October 5, 2017 [57 favorites]
Pando has more receipts on Twitter about Dan Lyons and Gawker/Valleywag, starting with this 2015 article: Valleywag's Dan Lyons is mad he can't call women "shrill harpies" or witches any more
HBO's Silicon Valley namechecked Pando not long before we wrote about Dan Lyons' sexism. Someone there was reading. Guess they didn't care.— Pando (@PandoDaily) October 6, 2017posted by nicebookrack at 7:34 PM on October 5, 2017 [21 favorites]
Also, remember that HBO's Silicon Valley also employed TJ Miller who went on a racist, sexist rant at the Crunchies https://t.co/ULcBvmLAo6— Pando (@PandoDaily) October 6, 2017
Dan Lyons wrote this about Sarah [Lacy] and other SV women, was hailed as a comedy genius. This was all public. https://t.co/C3Wdc29XjU pic.twitter.com/5HVYy24G0x— Pando (@PandoDaily) October 6, 2017
After Nick Denton removed Sam Biddle as editor of Valleywag for pissing off Gamergate, he replaced him with... Dan Lyons.— Pando (@PandoDaily) October 6, 2017
Using a library? A Milo supporter? She must have been thoroughly embarassed by the whole situation.
posted by yesster at 7:41 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by yesster at 7:41 PM on October 5, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm glad that my instincts re _Silicon Valley_ were so accurate. I looked at the poster, which had five guys looking bro-ey as hell, and no women, and said "Yeah, not only is that show not interested in me (woman working in tech) as an audience, they want to display that they aren't." I did not even bother.
(Then there was _Betas_, around the same time. Which had a woman in the poster! ... draped across one of the men's shoulders. Also a hard no.)
posted by tavella at 7:43 PM on October 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
(Then there was _Betas_, around the same time. Which had a woman in the poster! ... draped across one of the men's shoulders. Also a hard no.)
posted by tavella at 7:43 PM on October 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
Using a library? A Milo supporter? She must have been thoroughly embarassed by the whole situation.
If I had a dollar for every whine that we do not currently have a copy of the book a person wearing a MAGA hat wants right that instant, I could retire and do my art full time.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:49 PM on October 5, 2017 [49 favorites]
If I had a dollar for every whine that we do not currently have a copy of the book a person wearing a MAGA hat wants right that instant, I could retire and do my art full time.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:49 PM on October 5, 2017 [49 favorites]
Is it because I'm in Boston and in my 40's?
Although I share your feelings of living in a bubble when reading the news from westa Wuhstuh, unfortunately, you may not be looking hard enough. Shiva Ayyadurai announced his anti-Warren candidacy at a party thrown by Gamergate leader Mike Cernovich down in Washington earlier this year. And there are people in our fair Commonwealth who think it's a crime that the state plans to remove our one Confederate memorial, on Georges Island. They're out there.
posted by adamg at 7:53 PM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Although I share your feelings of living in a bubble when reading the news from westa Wuhstuh, unfortunately, you may not be looking hard enough. Shiva Ayyadurai announced his anti-Warren candidacy at a party thrown by Gamergate leader Mike Cernovich down in Washington earlier this year. And there are people in our fair Commonwealth who think it's a crime that the state plans to remove our one Confederate memorial, on Georges Island. They're out there.
posted by adamg at 7:53 PM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Informative Twitter thread on Auerbach from Andy Baio:
In August 2015, I wrote a reply to @anildash saying David Auerbach was "pro-GG." He found it and FLIPPED OUT, posting 35+ furious tweets. pic.twitter.com/9p8RCSqscR— Andy Baio (@waxpancake) October 5, 2017posted by nicebookrack at 7:56 PM on October 5, 2017 [11 favorites]
So punch nazis and then make fun of them, basically. And expose their disgusting beliefs so they don't have plausible deniability, like this article does.
Well there's no shortage of fun-making but I've said before the number one thing that concerns me personally is the right-wing dominance of YouTube - concerns me because kids use the site so much. And I don't think we can count on Google to fix that in their own so - anybody here want to be a YouTube star?
posted by atoxyl at 8:03 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Well there's no shortage of fun-making but I've said before the number one thing that concerns me personally is the right-wing dominance of YouTube - concerns me because kids use the site so much. And I don't think we can count on Google to fix that in their own so - anybody here want to be a YouTube star?
posted by atoxyl at 8:03 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
HBO's Silicon Valley namechecked Pando not long before we wrote about Dan Lyons' sexism. Someone there was reading. Guess they didn't care.
Didn't Pando used to employ Mark Ames? Or maybe he was a freelancer but I'm starting to find publications sniping at each other about stuff like this tiresome because - just deal with your own guys first?
posted by atoxyl at 8:07 PM on October 5, 2017
Didn't Pando used to employ Mark Ames? Or maybe he was a freelancer but I'm starting to find publications sniping at each other about stuff like this tiresome because - just deal with your own guys first?
posted by atoxyl at 8:07 PM on October 5, 2017
Like time, internet imbroglios are a flat circle: David Auerbach "passed along [...][to Milo] 'the goods' about an allegedly racist friend of Arthur Chu, the Jeopardy champion and frequent advocate of social justice causes;" apparently that friend was requireshate, as seen previously.
Fandom and politics and the internet wasteland are all melting together before my eyes and it's giving me hives!!!
posted by nicebookrack at 8:13 PM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Fandom and politics and the internet wasteland are all melting together before my eyes and it's giving me hives!!!
posted by nicebookrack at 8:13 PM on October 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm going to have to go and learn boxing or something. This has gone far enough and I think it's about time to start cracking jaws.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:17 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:17 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Am I really living in a bubble?
I dunno, man. I'm in a liberal city (Austin) in a liberal environment (college campus). I friended a nice white woman who had been very kind to me only to discover she'd liked posts that said things like "I feel persecuted for voting for Trump." I was interested in taking a highly-rated class from a particular professor, googled his name looking for the syllabus, and found out he'd written an op-ed that contained sentences like "Europe’s experience shows that if we continue these policies, we will suffer many more [terrorist attacks]." My roommate joined a frat that had a Muslim woman vice president and the president turned out to be a Yiannopolus fan. And I'm solely naming incidents where I had an initially-good impression that turned out to be very wrong, I don't even want to get into all the explicit NeoNazi activity on campus. These people are seriously everywhere. You're either lucky enough to be in a very tightly-curated bubble or... maybe there are signs you're missing.
posted by perplexion at 8:39 PM on October 5, 2017 [21 favorites]
I dunno, man. I'm in a liberal city (Austin) in a liberal environment (college campus). I friended a nice white woman who had been very kind to me only to discover she'd liked posts that said things like "I feel persecuted for voting for Trump." I was interested in taking a highly-rated class from a particular professor, googled his name looking for the syllabus, and found out he'd written an op-ed that contained sentences like "Europe’s experience shows that if we continue these policies, we will suffer many more [terrorist attacks]." My roommate joined a frat that had a Muslim woman vice president and the president turned out to be a Yiannopolus fan. And I'm solely naming incidents where I had an initially-good impression that turned out to be very wrong, I don't even want to get into all the explicit NeoNazi activity on campus. These people are seriously everywhere. You're either lucky enough to be in a very tightly-curated bubble or... maybe there are signs you're missing.
posted by perplexion at 8:39 PM on October 5, 2017 [21 favorites]
Re, women hiding because gamergate. When i got a picture of my son's school from a gater is when I stopped writing about games, dumped my social media, quit updating my websites, and stopped participating anywhere else they'd found me. I dropped accounts that I'd had since before the turn of the century. These assholes are full on terrorists, and we, even here, tried to warn the world, but it was a Cassandra quest.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 8:45 PM on October 5, 2017 [113 favorites]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 8:45 PM on October 5, 2017 [113 favorites]
Yeah, there's this illusion on MeFi and elsewhere in safe liberal/lefty spaces that the average Trump voter or alt-right wingnut is a MAGA-hat wearing angry old good ol' boy driving a pickup or a smirking white guy dressed like a steampunk villain. But Oregon was founded as a white supremacist utopia and California has more active hate groups than Texas. There was just a big white supremacist meetup in Seattle. James Damore worked for Google in Silicon Valley. White supremacists use Reddit to organize.
The face of racism isn't an Alabama yokel in a Klan hood anymore. It's a well off white nerd or white collar professional.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 8:49 PM on October 5, 2017 [85 favorites]
The face of racism isn't an Alabama yokel in a Klan hood anymore. It's a well off white nerd or white collar professional.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 8:49 PM on October 5, 2017 [85 favorites]
It's a well off white nerd or white collar professional.
Echoing this. I've had some friend-groups meltdown when people fitting that description felt the need to unveil their sympathies and gloat during the interregnum between November and February.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:54 PM on October 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
Echoing this. I've had some friend-groups meltdown when people fitting that description felt the need to unveil their sympathies and gloat during the interregnum between November and February.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:54 PM on October 5, 2017 [12 favorites]
The face of racism isn't an Alabama yokel in a Klan hood anymore. It's a well off white nerd or white collar professional.
In general, I think it's the face of someone who knows they got to where they are through their family connections and their family doesn't know anyone who isn't white and if the demographics change they can't do the same for their kids.
posted by hippybear at 8:55 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
In general, I think it's the face of someone who knows they got to where they are through their family connections and their family doesn't know anyone who isn't white and if the demographics change they can't do the same for their kids.
posted by hippybear at 8:55 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
David Auerbach "passed along [...][to Milo] 'the goods' about an allegedly racist friend of Arthur Chu, the Jeopardy champion and frequent advocate of social justice causes"
At first I did not know how to deal with this or parse the story regarding David; we hung out a few times back in the early aughts (we connected through our blogs and he was still in Seattle working at MS). We're friends on Facebook. He's assuring people that he never wrote those emails. I'm choosing to believe him and holding on to that.
posted by jokeefe at 8:56 PM on October 5, 2017
At first I did not know how to deal with this or parse the story regarding David; we hung out a few times back in the early aughts (we connected through our blogs and he was still in Seattle working at MS). We're friends on Facebook. He's assuring people that he never wrote those emails. I'm choosing to believe him and holding on to that.
posted by jokeefe at 8:56 PM on October 5, 2017
their family doesn't know anyone who isn't white and if the demographics change they can't do the same for their kids.
Honestly, it's not even that noble. Not their kids. Themselves.
"[You] will not replace us."
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:57 PM on October 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
Honestly, it's not even that noble. Not their kids. Themselves.
"[You] will not replace us."
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:57 PM on October 5, 2017 [7 favorites]
I'd assumed the "us" there was the white race, not them personally.
posted by hippybear at 8:58 PM on October 5, 2017
posted by hippybear at 8:58 PM on October 5, 2017
> I'd assumed the "us" there was the white race, not them personally.
Nope, a lot of those same white tech bros are insecure about how they got to where they are (via networking, not abilities), have imposter syndrome, and don't actually know how to do the work they are assigned. They are petrified that someone more skilled will show them up and put them out of a job, and in many cases those tend to be people who had to earn they way through the ranks and not just network their way into a job. So people of color, women, etc.
Add in they built a lifestyle based on consumption and debt, and then they realize that if they lose their job for any significant portion of time, they are bankrupt. Same people who are obsessed about not being found out and fitting in to the toxic white male culture take out loans to live above their means.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:03 PM on October 5, 2017 [30 favorites]
Nope, a lot of those same white tech bros are insecure about how they got to where they are (via networking, not abilities), have imposter syndrome, and don't actually know how to do the work they are assigned. They are petrified that someone more skilled will show them up and put them out of a job, and in many cases those tend to be people who had to earn they way through the ranks and not just network their way into a job. So people of color, women, etc.
Add in they built a lifestyle based on consumption and debt, and then they realize that if they lose their job for any significant portion of time, they are bankrupt. Same people who are obsessed about not being found out and fitting in to the toxic white male culture take out loans to live above their means.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:03 PM on October 5, 2017 [30 favorites]
Only yesterday, Biz Stone was apparently perplexed when he and other senior Twitter engineers reported nazi filth and the response came back that it wasn't a TOS violation. The women who were driven into hiding are having to explain that, yeah, that's what happens.
I am surprised by tech journalists who think it's a good life choice to email m*l* about anything other than "when are you paying your writers?", but I was when Laurie Penny did her cod-Hunter-Thompson ride around with him and his coterie of teenage boys at the RNC.
He's assuring people that he never wrote those emails. I'm choosing to believe him and holding on to that.
He did, however, tweet out remarkably similar sentiments at times that line up with the datestamps of the emails. Maybe he was spoofed by some dastardly person who sought to defame him by sending private emails that plagiarised what he was saying in public?
posted by holgate at 9:07 PM on October 5, 2017 [28 favorites]
I am surprised by tech journalists who think it's a good life choice to email m*l* about anything other than "when are you paying your writers?", but I was when Laurie Penny did her cod-Hunter-Thompson ride around with him and his coterie of teenage boys at the RNC.
He's assuring people that he never wrote those emails. I'm choosing to believe him and holding on to that.
He did, however, tweet out remarkably similar sentiments at times that line up with the datestamps of the emails. Maybe he was spoofed by some dastardly person who sought to defame him by sending private emails that plagiarised what he was saying in public?
posted by holgate at 9:07 PM on October 5, 2017 [28 favorites]
They are petrified that someone more skilled will show them up and put them out of a job, and in many cases those tend to be people who had to earn they way through the ranks and not just network their way into a job. So people of color, women, etc.
Thus, the tactic of toeing corporate PR lines while attempting to control positions of hiring authority and ensconcing sympathizers. Nepotism elevated to a plane of pseudoracial allegiance. (As there is no 'white' race.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:07 PM on October 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
Thus, the tactic of toeing corporate PR lines while attempting to control positions of hiring authority and ensconcing sympathizers. Nepotism elevated to a plane of pseudoracial allegiance. (As there is no 'white' race.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:07 PM on October 5, 2017 [5 favorites]
I just went to Zoë Quinn's book signing, since that seemed like a better use of time than screaming in rage at the internet, and the book she signed for me is amazing:
dan lyons more like dan's lying. am i right?posted by zachlipton at 9:34 PM on October 5, 2017 [62 favorites]
This post got me to finally watch some Milo videos, to see why he's so popular. I see that he is a capable practitioner of the Gish Gallop, the sort of person who can prove to you scientifically that the earth is 6000 years old if that's what you want to believe in the first place.
posted by clawsoon at 9:36 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 9:36 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
This article seems to be relevant to the topic at hand: Should We Treat Domestic Terrorists the Way We Treat ISIS?
What Works—and What Doesn't
I don't like how any terrorism is handled in the US: many of the civil-rights-violating aspects of The Patriot Act. However, if the resources used for foreign terrorism were available to combat Nazi-ish terrorism in the US then this kind of subterfuge would be opposed by law enforcement and Nazi-lite groups would be pressured to turn in the more violent members and associates.
"Perhaps as important would be the indirect effects: banks, Internet companies, and other organizations vital to any group’s success would shy away from anything smacking of domestic terrorism. Nonviolent groups that share some of the radicals’ agenda would also face pressure, and many would feel compelled to change, often in ways that go against U.S. ideals of free speech and free assembly."
[[BTW if you cant get by the paywall I'd be happy to fully summarize/paraphrase+ each section of the article for individuals.]]
posted by RuvaBlue at 9:55 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
What Works—and What Doesn't
I don't like how any terrorism is handled in the US: many of the civil-rights-violating aspects of The Patriot Act. However, if the resources used for foreign terrorism were available to combat Nazi-ish terrorism in the US then this kind of subterfuge would be opposed by law enforcement and Nazi-lite groups would be pressured to turn in the more violent members and associates.
"Perhaps as important would be the indirect effects: banks, Internet companies, and other organizations vital to any group’s success would shy away from anything smacking of domestic terrorism. Nonviolent groups that share some of the radicals’ agenda would also face pressure, and many would feel compelled to change, often in ways that go against U.S. ideals of free speech and free assembly."
[[BTW if you cant get by the paywall I'd be happy to fully summarize/paraphrase+ each section of the article for individuals.]]
posted by RuvaBlue at 9:55 PM on October 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
The thing about domestic terrorism is... in the US it lacks any clear through-line. ISIS is easy -- it's brown Muslim people who want to ruin the US "because of our freedom" (George W Bush). But when white people are shooting people, it's more... sticky. Obviously to me, people shooting up a school, a prayer meeting, a concert... they're trying to make people afraid. They're promoting fear. They want to create terror. But why? They aren't part of an organization... They aren't getting orders from above. So... They must be all "lone wolves"! (a phrase that I hate)
But they happen, and we all become more afraid. So.. terror increases. But this isn't terrorism.
posted by hippybear at 10:27 PM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
But they happen, and we all become more afraid. So.. terror increases. But this isn't terrorism.
posted by hippybear at 10:27 PM on October 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
tavella: I'm glad that my instincts re _Silicon Valley_ were so accurate. I looked at the poster, which had five guys looking bro-ey as hell, and no women, and said "Yeah, not only is that show not interested in me (woman working in tech) as an audience, they want to display that they aren't." I did not even bother.
The producers interviewed one of my friends, who is in tech in Silicon Valley. (I think this was when they were working on Season 2, and trying to address some of the criticisms about the absence of women in the show.) They even used one of her stories, pretty much verbatim!
Except... they turned her into a man, in the episode. They didn't think it seemed "realistic" to include a woman in that scene--even though it was literally something that had happened to her, an actual woman in the real world.
So, you know.
posted by Superplin at 10:29 PM on October 5, 2017 [99 favorites]
The producers interviewed one of my friends, who is in tech in Silicon Valley. (I think this was when they were working on Season 2, and trying to address some of the criticisms about the absence of women in the show.) They even used one of her stories, pretty much verbatim!
Except... they turned her into a man, in the episode. They didn't think it seemed "realistic" to include a woman in that scene--even though it was literally something that had happened to her, an actual woman in the real world.
So, you know.
posted by Superplin at 10:29 PM on October 5, 2017 [99 favorites]
I have to reread this again tomorrow because I’m having a shitty sleepless night and things aren’t sinking in as they ought to, But the idea that Milo Y. is a sort of “ brand” with ghostwriters & lackeys & whatnot working under him makes him all the more repugnant to me.
posted by tantrumthecat at 11:23 PM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by tantrumthecat at 11:23 PM on October 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
Great journalism, and a tough read. Ugh, what despicable, irredeemable people.
For what it’s worth, I’m a cis/het white guy, engineering degree, mid-40s, married 20+ years, 2 sons, and my job very directly relates to macho sports (American football, baseball).
After the election, I realized that no matter how progressive I am, I just visually present as “white guy”. And that people are absolutely right to wonder as they see me—who knows? Maybe I volunteer to help migrant workers! Or possibly I descend into a secret vortex of hate and xenophobia!
Since then I’ve taken to wearing lots of Pride shirts like, say, this rainbow unicorn/pegasus beauty, with eye-wateringly bright pants in hot fuchsia, mint green or lavender, and footwear to match. This is how I’ve been loudly(!) and clearly signifying my alliance and “favorite team”, both at work and around town. (I make those pants look goooood.)
Hoping this doesn’t come across in a dismissive #notallmen sort of way. The sheer number of increasingly-comfortable Nazi shitheads crawling out into the daylight proves that the current levels of distrust are completely justified and appropriate. I guess all I’m saying is: I hear you, and I care. And while I can’t change my appearance, I do change my clothes.
To the extent that anyone questions my secret inner thoughts... I vastly prefer that people see me and confidently think, “liberal for sure (and possibly closeted homosexual?!)” than wonder “hmmm... definitely a white techy guy, so maybe one of those alt-right asshats...” It matters to me, and it’s my way to show, regardless of what I may look like, who I choose to stand and be counted with.
posted by rodeoclown at 11:44 PM on October 5, 2017 [25 favorites]
For what it’s worth, I’m a cis/het white guy, engineering degree, mid-40s, married 20+ years, 2 sons, and my job very directly relates to macho sports (American football, baseball).
After the election, I realized that no matter how progressive I am, I just visually present as “white guy”. And that people are absolutely right to wonder as they see me—who knows? Maybe I volunteer to help migrant workers! Or possibly I descend into a secret vortex of hate and xenophobia!
Since then I’ve taken to wearing lots of Pride shirts like, say, this rainbow unicorn/pegasus beauty, with eye-wateringly bright pants in hot fuchsia, mint green or lavender, and footwear to match. This is how I’ve been loudly(!) and clearly signifying my alliance and “favorite team”, both at work and around town. (I make those pants look goooood.)
Hoping this doesn’t come across in a dismissive #notallmen sort of way. The sheer number of increasingly-comfortable Nazi shitheads crawling out into the daylight proves that the current levels of distrust are completely justified and appropriate. I guess all I’m saying is: I hear you, and I care. And while I can’t change my appearance, I do change my clothes.
To the extent that anyone questions my secret inner thoughts... I vastly prefer that people see me and confidently think, “liberal for sure (and possibly closeted homosexual?!)” than wonder “hmmm... definitely a white techy guy, so maybe one of those alt-right asshats...” It matters to me, and it’s my way to show, regardless of what I may look like, who I choose to stand and be counted with.
posted by rodeoclown at 11:44 PM on October 5, 2017 [25 favorites]
At that point, history teaches us that the camps are not far off.
At this point, I feel like we're maybe five years away from the camps, max. If the Nazis manage to steal 2021, then the camps won't be more than a year away.
I am really struggling with a feeling of despair, that really this is too little, too late. This needed to come out three years ago, at the latest, and it needed to be BELIEVED then. Maybe even then it was too late, and we really needed to start fighting the right wingers ten years ago.
So great, we've revealed a bunch of them, and for a while they'll be embarrassed. But Twiter and Facebook won't d anything about Nazis, and Dentmore's ideas found fertile ground at Google. I just feel like we're fighting a continual rearguard action, now.
posted by happyroach at 12:09 AM on October 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
At this point, I feel like we're maybe five years away from the camps, max. If the Nazis manage to steal 2021, then the camps won't be more than a year away.
I am really struggling with a feeling of despair, that really this is too little, too late. This needed to come out three years ago, at the latest, and it needed to be BELIEVED then. Maybe even then it was too late, and we really needed to start fighting the right wingers ten years ago.
So great, we've revealed a bunch of them, and for a while they'll be embarrassed. But Twiter and Facebook won't d anything about Nazis, and Dentmore's ideas found fertile ground at Google. I just feel like we're fighting a continual rearguard action, now.
posted by happyroach at 12:09 AM on October 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
He added that during his karaoke performance, his "severe myopia" made it impossible for him to see the Hitler salutes a few feet away.
When someone a few years down the line writes the definitive book about this point in history, it's going to begin with that quote.
I wish more people had paid attention to what was really going on in GamerGate. And related to that, I wish I could feel much more optimistic about leftist activism against fascism in general, but my experience of leftist activist dudes is that the overlap between them and the people who shrugged off GamerGate is non-zero. But hey at least they're noticing now, every little helps I suppose.
posted by Catseye at 1:49 AM on October 6, 2017 [27 favorites]
When someone a few years down the line writes the definitive book about this point in history, it's going to begin with that quote.
I wish more people had paid attention to what was really going on in GamerGate. And related to that, I wish I could feel much more optimistic about leftist activism against fascism in general, but my experience of leftist activist dudes is that the overlap between them and the people who shrugged off GamerGate is non-zero. But hey at least they're noticing now, every little helps I suppose.
posted by Catseye at 1:49 AM on October 6, 2017 [27 favorites]
The sad thing is that most of the followers of these internet nazis are just such gullible marks. Milo shat on gamers for years (blaming the Elliot Rodger shooting people on video games for example) and then when he saw they were a bunch of proto racist women haters he dived in on their side, bought a token PS4 and changed his avatar to Dante from Devil May Cry and those idiots lapped it up as if he had never said a bad word about them. If anything it's an indication that for all the talk of Fox News for lying to the elderly this shit happens at every age demographic.
posted by PenDevil at 2:13 AM on October 6, 2017 [36 favorites]
posted by PenDevil at 2:13 AM on October 6, 2017 [36 favorites]
They're promoting fear. They want to create terror. But why? They aren't part of an organization... They aren't getting orders from above. So... They must be all "lone wolves"! (a phrase that I hate)
But they happen, and we all become more afraid. So.. terror increases. But this isn't terrorism.
It is terrorism. What you're describing is exactly how most ISIS attacks work - some lone nutter does something on their own, they claim it after the fact. They even tried to claim the Vegas thing.
The lone wolf is either a myth, or the only real way terrorism operates these days, depending on how you want to look at it. You don't need to be a member of an organisation to be a member of a movement, to work for a certain ideology.
posted by Dysk at 2:29 AM on October 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
But they happen, and we all become more afraid. So.. terror increases. But this isn't terrorism.
It is terrorism. What you're describing is exactly how most ISIS attacks work - some lone nutter does something on their own, they claim it after the fact. They even tried to claim the Vegas thing.
The lone wolf is either a myth, or the only real way terrorism operates these days, depending on how you want to look at it. You don't need to be a member of an organisation to be a member of a movement, to work for a certain ideology.
posted by Dysk at 2:29 AM on October 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
What you're describing is exactly how most ISIS attacks work - some lone nutter does something on their own, they claim it after the fact.
It's more linked than that. Despite popular perceptions ISIS mostly don't claim attacks that weren't done in their name.* What they do do is franchise terrorism, with 'ISIS' as the brand. So they will claim attacks from terrorists trained, financed and equipped by them, but they will also claim attacks from anyone who 'converts' and pledges allegiance to them beforehand, as soldiers 'inspired by' ISIS. So these are 'lone wolves' in the sense that they've just decided to do this themselves, but they're still very much linked in to a global terror network.
So yeah in that sense, it works the same with alt-right, white supremacist movements. Throw out hate, throw out propaganda, direct people to take action, show them through examples how they can do that, and wait. The only real difference in the technique is that ISIS rounds it up to "one of our soldiers", while the neo-Nazis round it down to "just a lone wolf, nothing to do with us." (Until they're in the news again and you find out they too were cheering it on behind the scenes the whole time.)
* with a few notable exceptions, especially recent ones - there's some indications that their patterns around claiming attacks are changing, unclear why, but getting beyond the point so I'll stop that there.
posted by Catseye at 2:55 AM on October 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
It's more linked than that. Despite popular perceptions ISIS mostly don't claim attacks that weren't done in their name.* What they do do is franchise terrorism, with 'ISIS' as the brand. So they will claim attacks from terrorists trained, financed and equipped by them, but they will also claim attacks from anyone who 'converts' and pledges allegiance to them beforehand, as soldiers 'inspired by' ISIS. So these are 'lone wolves' in the sense that they've just decided to do this themselves, but they're still very much linked in to a global terror network.
So yeah in that sense, it works the same with alt-right, white supremacist movements. Throw out hate, throw out propaganda, direct people to take action, show them through examples how they can do that, and wait. The only real difference in the technique is that ISIS rounds it up to "one of our soldiers", while the neo-Nazis round it down to "just a lone wolf, nothing to do with us." (Until they're in the news again and you find out they too were cheering it on behind the scenes the whole time.)
* with a few notable exceptions, especially recent ones - there's some indications that their patterns around claiming attacks are changing, unclear why, but getting beyond the point so I'll stop that there.
posted by Catseye at 2:55 AM on October 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
So these are 'lone wolves' in the sense that they've just decided to do this themselves, but they're still very much linked in to a global terror network.
That's a tenuous link at best. There have been a number of attacks they've claimed where the "link" amounts to nothing more than ISIS claiming it post facto, or that in combination with the perpetrator claiming to have done it for jihad. They have generally seemed more proactive in claiming European attacks than US ones, and they are getting more and more eager to claim everything - the parson's green bomber was claimed as one of theirs while still at large.
Half the people ISIS claim as theirs have no more link to a global terror network than Breivik or Paddock. They had contact with the ideas and broader movement, but took all action entirely off their own back, unsupported. The methodology is exactly the same, except for there being a specific organisation loudly claiming one set. Give it a few years, I'm sure someone will set up a StormTrooperStasi (or equally cringey bollocks) and start claiming everydomestic terrorist lone wolf was one of theirs, fighting for a global Aryan race
posted by Dysk at 3:09 AM on October 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
That's a tenuous link at best. There have been a number of attacks they've claimed where the "link" amounts to nothing more than ISIS claiming it post facto, or that in combination with the perpetrator claiming to have done it for jihad. They have generally seemed more proactive in claiming European attacks than US ones, and they are getting more and more eager to claim everything - the parson's green bomber was claimed as one of theirs while still at large.
Half the people ISIS claim as theirs have no more link to a global terror network than Breivik or Paddock. They had contact with the ideas and broader movement, but took all action entirely off their own back, unsupported. The methodology is exactly the same, except for there being a specific organisation loudly claiming one set. Give it a few years, I'm sure someone will set up a StormTrooperStasi (or equally cringey bollocks) and start claiming every
posted by Dysk at 3:09 AM on October 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Half the people ISIS claim as theirs have no more link to a global terror network than Breivik or Paddock. They had contact with the ideas and broader movement, but took all action entirely off their own back, unsupported.
There is a popular perception that ISIS just trawl the news for explosions and stick in a claim for them. This is not the case. There's a different model of terrorism at play here and it is one that the far right are absolutely learning from.
One of the reasons they have this perception is because our understanding of terrorism usually is centrally-organised groups with a coherent understanding of membership. We also have a model of terrorists claiming any attacks they think will make them look better. So when ISIS claims attacks don't fit into the first category, we mentally file them in the second. But that's not right either. They aren't falsely claiming attacks - their model of terrorism includes this franchised model of terrorism, where you can do XYZ and pledge allegiance to them and then kill some people, and they'll happily claim you as theirs. Because you are, because they are the ones that wound you up and pointed you off in that direction. The far-right do that too, they just aren't as honest about it. Yet.
posted by Catseye at 3:24 AM on October 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
There is a popular perception that ISIS just trawl the news for explosions and stick in a claim for them. This is not the case. There's a different model of terrorism at play here and it is one that the far right are absolutely learning from.
One of the reasons they have this perception is because our understanding of terrorism usually is centrally-organised groups with a coherent understanding of membership. We also have a model of terrorists claiming any attacks they think will make them look better. So when ISIS claims attacks don't fit into the first category, we mentally file them in the second. But that's not right either. They aren't falsely claiming attacks - their model of terrorism includes this franchised model of terrorism, where you can do XYZ and pledge allegiance to them and then kill some people, and they'll happily claim you as theirs. Because you are, because they are the ones that wound you up and pointed you off in that direction. The far-right do that too, they just aren't as honest about it. Yet.
posted by Catseye at 3:24 AM on October 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Except that that is far from the only attacks ISIS claim. Yes, they encourage people to carry things out and attribute it to them, but they claim all manner of attacks beyond ones carried out like that.
And it isn't like there aren't huge swathes of the alt-right loudly encouraging all manner of violence online, either.
Exactly the same. Except there's no single alt-right organisation formalising any claims.
posted by Dysk at 3:27 AM on October 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
And it isn't like there aren't huge swathes of the alt-right loudly encouraging all manner of violence online, either.
Exactly the same. Except there's no single alt-right organisation formalising any claims.
posted by Dysk at 3:27 AM on October 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Really, no, this idea that ISIS claim anything and everything is not the case. But I realise ISIS are not the subject here and we're getting off-topic, so I really am going to leave it there this time. This is a fairly decent overview of how ISIS claims work for anyone who wants to get into it more, and I'd also really recommend Rukmini Callimachi in the NYT on their model and on Twitter.
posted by Catseye at 3:30 AM on October 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Catseye at 3:30 AM on October 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
The problem with pushing law enforcement to crack down on "domestic terrorism" is that the label will be assigned to environmental groups and not white supremacist groups. Any tool we create will be used against us, so create very carefully.
As for Boston, I don't know about ties into these sorts of alt-right-bro groups, but Boston is HELLA fucking racist and has been for decades at least.
posted by rmd1023 at 3:31 AM on October 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
As for Boston, I don't know about ties into these sorts of alt-right-bro groups, but Boston is HELLA fucking racist and has been for decades at least.
posted by rmd1023 at 3:31 AM on October 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Really, no, this idea that ISIS claim anything and everything is not the case.
No, but their claims do go much much broader than what you describe. Again, they bloody claimed the Vegas shooter. They claim any attack that looks like it might fit the model you describe. They do little (past) to no (currently) verification.
The way they've traditionally operated is not dissimilar to the traditional cell network. Cells are more autonomous and potentially smaller, but it's more a difference of degree than kind. They encourage jihad. The racist right encourages race war. Same deal, no formalised structure for support, but an in practice similar structure of a bunch of operationally independent but loosely allied groups doing propaganda, radicalisation, and encouraging violence in the name of the cause. One cause just has a formal brand.
posted by Dysk at 3:42 AM on October 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
No, but their claims do go much much broader than what you describe. Again, they bloody claimed the Vegas shooter. They claim any attack that looks like it might fit the model you describe. They do little (past) to no (currently) verification.
The way they've traditionally operated is not dissimilar to the traditional cell network. Cells are more autonomous and potentially smaller, but it's more a difference of degree than kind. They encourage jihad. The racist right encourages race war. Same deal, no formalised structure for support, but an in practice similar structure of a bunch of operationally independent but loosely allied groups doing propaganda, radicalisation, and encouraging violence in the name of the cause. One cause just has a formal brand.
posted by Dysk at 3:42 AM on October 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Like, every right wing domestic terrorist nutter is clearly inspired by the alt-right and their ideology in the same way that the ISIS attacks are. The difference is merely that there is no formal group claiming the alt-right stuff, and the domestic terrorists are talking about racism in general because there is no formal movement to pledge to.
posted by Dysk at 3:45 AM on October 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 3:45 AM on October 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
But much of Yiannopoulos’s knowledge of Thiel seemed to come secondhand from other right-wing activists, as well as Curtis Yarvin, the blogger who advocates the return of feudalism. In an email exchange shortly after the election, Yarvin told Yiannopoulos that he had been “coaching Thiel.”
“Peter needs guidance on politics for sure,” Yiannopoulos responded.
“Less than you might think!” Yarvin wrote back. “I watched the election at his house, I think my hangover lasted into Tuesday. He’s fully enlightened, just plays it very carefully.
Just quoting this because A. It's the scariest bit to me -- Mencius Moldburg hanging out with his prospective Emperor and Thiel utterly bought into American Monarchy, but also
B. Last year I said that the Dark Enlightenment and Alt Right were the same thing and you guys pooh poohed me NOW WHO IS LAUGHING NOBODY THIS SUCKS.
Said it before, say it again, the Sophists who contort Western Philosophy to embrace what Plato called "That Which Is Not", the nihilistic will to power that underlies all anti-morality, are the most dangerous arm of the right wing. Everything starts with that Lie.
And the principal Merlin of that movement is snackin on fuckin popcorn on the couch with one of the richest people on earth whispering in his ear that he should be the goddamn king, and emailing with the propaganda department. This is bad.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:52 AM on October 6, 2017 [46 favorites]
“Peter needs guidance on politics for sure,” Yiannopoulos responded.
“Less than you might think!” Yarvin wrote back. “I watched the election at his house, I think my hangover lasted into Tuesday. He’s fully enlightened, just plays it very carefully.
Just quoting this because A. It's the scariest bit to me -- Mencius Moldburg hanging out with his prospective Emperor and Thiel utterly bought into American Monarchy, but also
B. Last year I said that the Dark Enlightenment and Alt Right were the same thing and you guys pooh poohed me NOW WHO IS LAUGHING NOBODY THIS SUCKS.
Said it before, say it again, the Sophists who contort Western Philosophy to embrace what Plato called "That Which Is Not", the nihilistic will to power that underlies all anti-morality, are the most dangerous arm of the right wing. Everything starts with that Lie.
And the principal Merlin of that movement is snackin on fuckin popcorn on the couch with one of the richest people on earth whispering in his ear that he should be the goddamn king, and emailing with the propaganda department. This is bad.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:52 AM on October 6, 2017 [46 favorites]
Honestly what's pretty terrifying is some of the guys who I encounter doing some of the worst shit are wearing pins that would lead me to believe they oppose it. They are actively in deep camouflage for their workplace, mouthing shit they don't believe until the moment someone has less power than them. And how do you root that out, short of a serious intelligence campaign?
posted by corb at 5:10 AM on October 6, 2017 [23 favorites]
posted by corb at 5:10 AM on October 6, 2017 [23 favorites]
When you catch them doing the worst shit, put them on blast.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:17 AM on October 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:17 AM on October 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
What this and the other article recently about Seattle-area white nationalists who work in tech inspired me to wonder about is: how many Nazis work at Valve?
(Why? Because Valve are essentially the gatekeepers of video games at this point, and the alt-right is rooted heavily in games - GamerGate, obviously, but Steve Bannon was inspired by hissy fits in World of Warcraft to try and harness some of that for a higher class of evil. Also, Valve's in Seattle, and most importantly, their full staff list is public.)
posted by Merus at 5:46 AM on October 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
(Why? Because Valve are essentially the gatekeepers of video games at this point, and the alt-right is rooted heavily in games - GamerGate, obviously, but Steve Bannon was inspired by hissy fits in World of Warcraft to try and harness some of that for a higher class of evil. Also, Valve's in Seattle, and most importantly, their full staff list is public.)
posted by Merus at 5:46 AM on October 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
The most shocking thing I learned from the article is that Yiannopoulos is married to a black man.
It's OK, he's one of the good ones.
posted by flabdablet at 5:56 AM on October 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's OK, he's one of the good ones.
posted by flabdablet at 5:56 AM on October 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
(Why? Because Valve are essentially the gatekeepers of video games at this point, and the alt-right is rooted heavily in games - GamerGate, obviously, but Steve Bannon was inspired by hissy fits in World of Warcraft to try and harness some of that for a higher class of evil. Also, Valve's in Seattle, and most importantly, their full staff list is public.)
One of the things Zoe Quinn talks about in her book is Valve's total disinterest in doing literally anything about harassment/abuse on Steam.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:00 AM on October 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
One of the things Zoe Quinn talks about in her book is Valve's total disinterest in doing literally anything about harassment/abuse on Steam.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:00 AM on October 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
At this point, I feel like we're maybe five years away from the camps, max.
You want camps? Here, have some of ours.
posted by flabdablet at 6:14 AM on October 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
You want camps? Here, have some of ours.
posted by flabdablet at 6:14 AM on October 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
re: wearing visible ally markers so that your marginalized friends and coworkers know you're not one of the "bad" CHWM
One of the most abusive men in my workplace will openly spout leftist ideology and wear ally markers. Women all know better and avoid him, but when we try and tell his male coworkers why no one wants to work with them or collaborate with their dept, they tell us we must be wrong because he says very liberal things sometimes. Like in the case of Gamergate, women have been beating the drum about him for years but he still routinely fools other men with very facile attempts to pass as a good person.
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:25 AM on October 6, 2017 [40 favorites]
One of the most abusive men in my workplace will openly spout leftist ideology and wear ally markers. Women all know better and avoid him, but when we try and tell his male coworkers why no one wants to work with them or collaborate with their dept, they tell us we must be wrong because he says very liberal things sometimes. Like in the case of Gamergate, women have been beating the drum about him for years but he still routinely fools other men with very facile attempts to pass as a good person.
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:25 AM on October 6, 2017 [40 favorites]
Well, that’s some profoundly discouraging, wolf-in-sheep’s-clothing shit. I suppose for someone like that, the only play is to put them on blast when their true colors show, as soren_lorenson suggests...
posted by rodeoclown at 6:39 AM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by rodeoclown at 6:39 AM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, the more any kind of ostentatious signaling becomes a Thing, the easier it'll be for the "crypto" dudes to disguise themselves. You have to do the hard work of actively supporting minorities, agitating for good policy, and calling out bullshit if you want to help or be seen to be helping.
posted by Dysk at 6:50 AM on October 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 6:50 AM on October 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
anem0ne: When women point out sexism, men come out of the woodwork and say that they couldn't possibly be sexist because they have a wife and that what the women are seeing as sexism isn't because the guy has a wife too! When PoC point out racism, white folk come out and say that maybe the PoC are reading too much into it, because look, they've all got PoC friends! When trans people point out transphobia, the transphobes come out and deny it exists, and point to #NotYourShield, so obviously it's some sort of gay agenda that's making it all up!
That appears to be an integral part of Milo's schtick. "I'm gay Jew, and my boyfriend is black, therefore I can't possibly be a bigot!" His fans consider it an excellent shield.
posted by clawsoon at 7:00 AM on October 6, 2017 [29 favorites]
That appears to be an integral part of Milo's schtick. "I'm gay Jew, and my boyfriend is black, therefore I can't possibly be a bigot!" His fans consider it an excellent shield.
posted by clawsoon at 7:00 AM on October 6, 2017 [29 favorites]
What this and the other article recently about Seattle-area white nationalists who work in tech inspired me to wonder about is: how many Nazis work at Valve?
I've been saying since it came out that Facebook's bizarre "subset" logic for handling abuse could only have been written by a full-on white supremacist. To say the least, these new revelations have done nothing to convince me I was wrong.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:04 AM on October 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
I've been saying since it came out that Facebook's bizarre "subset" logic for handling abuse could only have been written by a full-on white supremacist. To say the least, these new revelations have done nothing to convince me I was wrong.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:04 AM on October 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
That appears to be an integral part of Milo's schtick. "I'm gay Jew, and my boyfriend is black, therefore I can't possibly be a bigot!" His fans consider it an excellent shield.
TBH, with Milo I have wondered if even the bigotry is nothing more than a way to bilk idiots. I'm probably giving him too much credit though, and in the end it doesn't matter at all. We are our actions.
posted by jaduncan at 7:27 AM on October 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
TBH, with Milo I have wondered if even the bigotry is nothing more than a way to bilk idiots. I'm probably giving him too much credit though, and in the end it doesn't matter at all. We are our actions.
posted by jaduncan at 7:27 AM on October 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
I'm curious about an intentional campaign of making fun of nazis around the wolf in sheep's clothing closet nazi haunts - it's easy for them to parrot the language of an ally, but the desire to be seen as part of the in group for camouflage and humor's ability to pierce through the facade might actually work as a lever to detach at least some of these guys from Super Secret Closet Nazi Club. Groups joking around with each other is a powerful thing, a lot of interesting personal and social psychology at play that sets up a situation where you're rewarded for going along with even an ad hoc group of total strangers by joining in and making them laugh, there's a reason these fucks use memes and edgelord jokes on Reddit and the Chans as their indoctrination on ramp.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:51 AM on October 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 7:51 AM on October 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
They are actively in deep camouflage for their workplace, mouthing shit they don't believe until the moment someone has less power than them. And how do you root that out, short of a serious intelligence campaign?
actually take being racist and shitty and palling around with shitlords seriously? b/c right now it's possible for people to pal around with shitlords and then blunder back into liberal town because too many milquetoast people
make it totally unacceptable for people to say and do that shit, and not just like "oh im...uncomfortable with you" but like... actual social consequences
also hire your friends and people that share your politics, i swear to god that left people think they're too fucking good for this and it shoots us in the foot
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 8:05 AM on October 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
actually take being racist and shitty and palling around with shitlords seriously? b/c right now it's possible for people to pal around with shitlords and then blunder back into liberal town because too many milquetoast people
make it totally unacceptable for people to say and do that shit, and not just like "oh im...uncomfortable with you" but like... actual social consequences
also hire your friends and people that share your politics, i swear to god that left people think they're too fucking good for this and it shoots us in the foot
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 8:05 AM on October 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
Is this what a generation gap looks like? Is Silicon Valley built on a cursed burying ground ?
posted by ocschwar at 10:03 PM on October 5
Weird, right? It's like all of America is built over an ancient Indian burial ground. Oh fucking wait!
This is what happens when we refuse to acknowledge and make reparations for the genocide and enslavement of several races. We're doomed to continue it.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 8:13 AM on October 6, 2017 [23 favorites]
So, I was going to post this tweet from the Wolfenstein PR team yesterday as "hey, this is how I feel" in this thread, but thought it might be out of place.
Then I saw this.
There are people attacking a long, storied franchise built on "yes, Nazis are bad, go stop them" as being "too political".
...I think I ran out of evens.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:17 AM on October 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
Then I saw this.
There are people attacking a long, storied franchise built on "yes, Nazis are bad, go stop them" as being "too political".
...I think I ran out of evens.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:17 AM on October 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
I've been saying since it came out that Facebook's bizarre "subset" logic for handling abuse could only have been written by a full-on white supremacist
I haven't heard this at all, could you elaborate?
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 8:31 AM on October 6, 2017
I haven't heard this at all, could you elaborate?
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 8:31 AM on October 6, 2017
Facebook’s Secret Censorship Rules Protect White Men From Hate Speech But Not Black Children
posted by perplexion at 8:34 AM on October 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by perplexion at 8:34 AM on October 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
There are people attacking a long, storied franchise built on "yes, Nazis are bad, go stop them" as being "too political".
I was on Twitter last night and someone pointed out that the Wolfenstein series had gone from predictably boring to radically political over 20 years by maintaining that shooting Nazis was good and unobjectionable.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:43 AM on October 6, 2017 [46 favorites]
I was on Twitter last night and someone pointed out that the Wolfenstein series had gone from predictably boring to radically political over 20 years by maintaining that shooting Nazis was good and unobjectionable.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:43 AM on October 6, 2017 [46 favorites]
How did Buzzfeed obtain these documents? Who leaked them and why? Was it a liberal mole or is this some sort of internal right-wing battle? It would be interesting to know the motives.
posted by JackFlash at 9:08 AM on October 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by JackFlash at 9:08 AM on October 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yiannopoulos is married to a black man.
Less than two years ago, a wonderful person I know (who is gay, black, and like me is in the tech industry) was approached by a good friend of his who wanted to hook him up with Milo, who apparently had asked to meet him specifically. At the time, this person hadn't heard of Milo, but knew he was a "big deal" of some kind. He asked some of us if we knew who Milo was, and oh boy did we, and told him to run far far away from this person, don't even meet him.
Looking back, it was obviously good advice (that thankfully was taken) but I had no idea about the tech part of this. Meanwhile there are two people who work in a related department, one of whom is a straight-up Pepe monster, and one of which hired that person (and who always wore a MAGA hat and said pro-Trump things, but claimed to be doing so "ironically" as he isn't a citizen and thus can't vote anyway.) Now I'm taking a fresh look at that set of circumstances.
Meanwhile, I'm looking for a new job, and am a white guy who genuinely does care about diversity. During one interview, the mood changed when I brought up diversity and my desire to work in an office made up of more than just a bunch of white guys (despite being one), and now I find myself wondering if their mood shifted because they were participants in this sort of thing, or because they assumed I was one of those kinds of people mentioned in the article. Something I will need to think about going forward.
posted by davejay at 9:08 AM on October 6, 2017 [23 favorites]
Less than two years ago, a wonderful person I know (who is gay, black, and like me is in the tech industry) was approached by a good friend of his who wanted to hook him up with Milo, who apparently had asked to meet him specifically. At the time, this person hadn't heard of Milo, but knew he was a "big deal" of some kind. He asked some of us if we knew who Milo was, and oh boy did we, and told him to run far far away from this person, don't even meet him.
Looking back, it was obviously good advice (that thankfully was taken) but I had no idea about the tech part of this. Meanwhile there are two people who work in a related department, one of whom is a straight-up Pepe monster, and one of which hired that person (and who always wore a MAGA hat and said pro-Trump things, but claimed to be doing so "ironically" as he isn't a citizen and thus can't vote anyway.) Now I'm taking a fresh look at that set of circumstances.
Meanwhile, I'm looking for a new job, and am a white guy who genuinely does care about diversity. During one interview, the mood changed when I brought up diversity and my desire to work in an office made up of more than just a bunch of white guys (despite being one), and now I find myself wondering if their mood shifted because they were participants in this sort of thing, or because they assumed I was one of those kinds of people mentioned in the article. Something I will need to think about going forward.
posted by davejay at 9:08 AM on October 6, 2017 [23 favorites]
How did Buzzfeed obtain these documents? Who leaked them and why? Was it a liberal mole or is this some sort of internal right-wing battle? It would be interesting to know the motives.
Seems somewhat obvious to me: only one character in the story obtains Milo’s email password and is upbraided for it.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:14 AM on October 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Seems somewhat obvious to me: only one character in the story obtains Milo’s email password and is upbraided for it.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:14 AM on October 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
The version in the movie [Cabaret] is infinitely more naturalistic and sophisticated, and it presses the same point home without any of the more overt theatricality required for the stage.
Watching this for the first time in years, it’s still chilling, but also: I never noticed how much it feels like a direct response to the Marseillaise scene in Casablanca. Like it’s saying ‘yes, that’s very inspiring and uplifting and everything, but you do know the good guys don’t have any monopoly on that stuff, right?’
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 9:44 AM on October 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
Watching this for the first time in years, it’s still chilling, but also: I never noticed how much it feels like a direct response to the Marseillaise scene in Casablanca. Like it’s saying ‘yes, that’s very inspiring and uplifting and everything, but you do know the good guys don’t have any monopoly on that stuff, right?’
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 9:44 AM on October 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
OK IT IS ARGUABLY-INTERESTING FOOTNOTE TIME.
A minor player in all this (or at least in the story) is Vivek Wadhwa, who is Silicon Valley made flesh. He's a professor at CMU at Silicon Valley and academic, a fellow at the Rock Center for Corporate Governance, and the Director of Research at the Center for Entrepreneurship and Research, which I know nearly nothing about, if I'm being honest, but they sound researchy. He's also, basically, the guy who interrupts you, an actual grown-up lady, to tell everyone how much he supports gender equity. He's a renowned concern troll, worrying publicly about what if women in tech are merely "token floozies," although he later blamed the phrasing on the fact that he is a non-native speaker of English (if only he had said "token broads," all offense would have been avoided, I guess!) With friends like these, etc.
A couple of years ago, NPR's On the Media had a spinoff podcast called TLDR, which was mostly outstanding, and which is worth listening to. Amelia Greenhall reported on Wadhwa's behavior, including his statements on the record and colleagues' stories about his skeevy behavior (the phrase "sliding into my DMs" was used, if I recall correctly -- in other words, taking conversations private in order to behave inappropriately.) It was a blistering indictment...but there was a problem, which we can call Ethics in Tech Journalism: the podcast never reached out to Wadhwa himself for comment, and was subsequently taken down. At one point it was available here but I haven't tried to access it. In any case, TLDR messed up, and I'm afraid it wound up costing any effort to make this particular jerk's behavior more public.
Until this story:
A minor player in all this (or at least in the story) is Vivek Wadhwa, who is Silicon Valley made flesh. He's a professor at CMU at Silicon Valley and academic, a fellow at the Rock Center for Corporate Governance, and the Director of Research at the Center for Entrepreneurship and Research, which I know nearly nothing about, if I'm being honest, but they sound researchy. He's also, basically, the guy who interrupts you, an actual grown-up lady, to tell everyone how much he supports gender equity. He's a renowned concern troll, worrying publicly about what if women in tech are merely "token floozies," although he later blamed the phrasing on the fact that he is a non-native speaker of English (if only he had said "token broads," all offense would have been avoided, I guess!) With friends like these, etc.
A couple of years ago, NPR's On the Media had a spinoff podcast called TLDR, which was mostly outstanding, and which is worth listening to. Amelia Greenhall reported on Wadhwa's behavior, including his statements on the record and colleagues' stories about his skeevy behavior (the phrase "sliding into my DMs" was used, if I recall correctly -- in other words, taking conversations private in order to behave inappropriately.) It was a blistering indictment...but there was a problem, which we can call Ethics in Tech Journalism: the podcast never reached out to Wadhwa himself for comment, and was subsequently taken down. At one point it was available here but I haven't tried to access it. In any case, TLDR messed up, and I'm afraid it wound up costing any effort to make this particular jerk's behavior more public.
Until this story:
And some of these disgruntled tech workers reached beyond the rank and file. Vivek Wadhwa, a prominent entrepreneur and academic, reached out repeatedly to Yiannopoulos with stories of what he considered out-of-control political correctness. First it was about a boycott campaign against a Kickstarter with connections to GamerGate. (“These people are truly crazy and destructive. … What horrible people,” wrote Wadwha of the campaigners.) Then it was about Y-Combinator cofounder Paul Graham; Wadwha felt Graham was being unfairly targeted for an essay he wrote about gender inequality in tech.posted by chesty_a_arthur at 10:32 AM on October 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
“Political correctness has gone too far,” Wadhwa wrote. “The alternative is communism — not equality. And that is a failed system…” Yiannopoulos passed Wadhwa’s email to Bokhari, who promptly ghostwrote a story for Breitbart, “Social Justice Warrior Knives Out For Startup Guru Paul Graham.”
Wadwha told BuzzFeed News that he no longer supports Yiannopoulos.
I find it pretty hilarious that Dark Genius of the Alt-Right Steve Bannon clearly learned the word "marginalia" like a year ago and has decided using it makes him sound smart so he just says it all the time now in completely inappropriate contexts, and also seemingly while he's drunk and yelling at Milo completely incomprehensibly.
posted by Copronymus at 10:32 AM on October 6, 2017 [21 favorites]
posted by Copronymus at 10:32 AM on October 6, 2017 [21 favorites]
way to be taken in by the marginalia of the story
posted by the phlegmatic king at 10:35 AM on October 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by the phlegmatic king at 10:35 AM on October 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
So now Dan Lyons is insisting "I apologized earlier today directly to Amber Discko and Zoe Quinn" and then blocking Quinn on Twitter after she said she never got an apology really meant "I used the contact form on your book website and wrote a long letter to you", which stretches the word "directly" rather far, assuming he actually did as he claims.
I, for one, will be over here treasuring my inscribed book.
posted by zachlipton at 10:42 AM on October 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
I, for one, will be over here treasuring my inscribed book.
posted by zachlipton at 10:42 AM on October 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
We discussed the Wadhwa vs. TLDR mess in 2015. Color me not entirely surprised that he turns out to be a complete turd.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:48 AM on October 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:48 AM on October 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
well, lots of people who wouldn't have recognized Dan Lyons' name or work before yesterday now know him primarily as a craven little piece of shit. Silver linings
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:59 AM on October 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:59 AM on October 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
I don't understand Milo. He's gay. He's Jewish. He's a foreigner.
He doesn't believe that leopards actually eat faces.
posted by hanov3r at 11:00 AM on October 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
He doesn't believe that leopards actually eat faces.
posted by hanov3r at 11:00 AM on October 6, 2017 [19 favorites]
I find it pretty hilarious that Dark Genius of the Alt-Right Steve Bannon clearly learned the word "marginalia" like a year ago and has decided using it makes him sound smart so he just says it all the time now in completely inappropriate contexts, and also seemingly while he's drunk and yelling at Milo completely incomprehensibly.
BANNON: I'll have the blue cheese burger and I'd like onion rings as my marginalia
posted by mcmile at 11:01 AM on October 6, 2017 [26 favorites]
BANNON: I'll have the blue cheese burger and I'd like onion rings as my marginalia
posted by mcmile at 11:01 AM on October 6, 2017 [26 favorites]
I mean, Milo is Jewish in the sense that his maternal grandmother is Jewish, which is how Jews technically define Jewishness. He's not Jewish in the sense that he has ever practiced Judaism or identified with Jewishness for any reason other than to troll people and provide a cover for antisemitism.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:04 AM on October 6, 2017 [23 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:04 AM on October 6, 2017 [23 favorites]
Sarah Lacy, You don’t get to be "shocked"
posted by zachlipton at 11:16 AM on October 6, 2017 [52 favorites]
Spare me your outrage, tech world. This isn’t some hillbilly “other” you’ve been railing about with your anti-Trump rhetoric and your shock over Charlottesville. This is an “us.” These same people are in our ranks, and looking away or trying to “assume the best in people” or throw up your hands and say “I’m just an optimist! I believe the best in people!” won’t root them out.And she comes with receipts.
The biggest red flag in the tech world has become the words: “But he’s a good guy!”
Your outrage about Trump, about Steve Bannon, about James Damore, about Travis Kalanick, about it all… it disrespects the actual victims here. You don’t get the right to outrage when the tech world routinely hires, funds, enables and rehabilitates these same bad actors.
posted by zachlipton at 11:16 AM on October 6, 2017 [52 favorites]
He doesn't believe that leopards actually eat faces.
And is having so much fun wearing the velvet leopard costume Bannon made him.
In reality, he's not at risk. He's made a lot of money in the process and will jet off to safety of there's ever any real threat to him. In the meantime, he's having so much fun.
posted by Candleman at 11:23 AM on October 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
And is having so much fun wearing the velvet leopard costume Bannon made him.
In reality, he's not at risk. He's made a lot of money in the process and will jet off to safety of there's ever any real threat to him. In the meantime, he's having so much fun.
posted by Candleman at 11:23 AM on October 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
Thanks, ArbitraryandCapricious! I was traveling when that whole thing went down so I completely missed that whole discussion. Appreciate the link.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 11:29 AM on October 6, 2017
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 11:29 AM on October 6, 2017
Depending on details, it's not something that would need to be undercover in Hollywood, though.
posted by rmd1023 at 11:38 AM on October 6, 2017
posted by rmd1023 at 11:38 AM on October 6, 2017
can someone help me understand this? why would Saucier, the white supremacist, not want an article that talked about "racial differences in intelligence"? isn't he FOR that idea?
Saucier thought Milo was tip-toeing around what Saucier thinks are racial differences in intelligence. That is, Milo was not being racist enough explicitly enough.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:38 AM on October 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Saucier thought Milo was tip-toeing around what Saucier thinks are racial differences in intelligence. That is, Milo was not being racist enough explicitly enough.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:38 AM on October 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
can someone help me understand this? why would Saucier, the white supremacist, not want an article that talked about "racial differences in intelligence"? isn't he FOR that idea?
I can only speculate, but one of the major alt-right obsessions is "staying crypto", i.e. maintaining a plausibly deniable veneer to prevent the uninitiated from identifying them as white supremacists. Perhaps Saucier felt that the killed article was a little too obvious.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:39 AM on October 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
I can only speculate, but one of the major alt-right obsessions is "staying crypto", i.e. maintaining a plausibly deniable veneer to prevent the uninitiated from identifying them as white supremacists. Perhaps Saucier felt that the killed article was a little too obvious.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:39 AM on October 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
so if i am understanding things, this Bokhari guy got mad at Milo a while back, copied his entire email account, sat on it, and then decided to give it to buzzfeed
I read it as being "an assistant", the one who Milo sent the LongKnives1290 email password to (in an email). But I sometimes have reading comprehension issues.
posted by elsietheeel at 11:49 AM on October 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I read it as being "an assistant", the one who Milo sent the LongKnives1290 email password to (in an email). But I sometimes have reading comprehension issues.
posted by elsietheeel at 11:49 AM on October 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think melissasaurus has it. Yiannopoulos was trying to smuggle the racism into an article that on the surface could be mistaken for a reasoned argument, whereas Saucier wasn't happy unless everything—text, subtext, accompanying illustrations—screamed: BLACK PEOPLE BAD! WHITE PEOPLE GOOD!
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:51 AM on October 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:51 AM on October 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
All of this does explain why the whole media was so dead set against punching nazis. Riddled with cryptofascists as it seems to be, they were clearly worried they would be next.
posted by MartinWisse at 12:14 PM on October 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by MartinWisse at 12:14 PM on October 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
He doesn't believe that leopards actually eat faces.
A number of the more intellectual far-right guys are playing with fire - Yarvin/Moldbug for example also has Jewish heritage - in assuming that the vulgar Nazis can be controlled to their ends. Not that Milo is any sort of intellectual even by these standards - more of a celebrity/figurehead/profiteer I guess but it ends up being the same deal except dumber stakes.
posted by atoxyl at 12:17 PM on October 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
A number of the more intellectual far-right guys are playing with fire - Yarvin/Moldbug for example also has Jewish heritage - in assuming that the vulgar Nazis can be controlled to their ends. Not that Milo is any sort of intellectual even by these standards - more of a celebrity/figurehead/profiteer I guess but it ends up being the same deal except dumber stakes.
posted by atoxyl at 12:17 PM on October 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Vice says they fired Sunderland.
Countdown to job offer from Breitbart in 5...4...3...
Well, wuddya know?
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:18 PM on October 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
Countdown to job offer from Breitbart in 5...4...3...
Well, wuddya know?
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:18 PM on October 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
Also can't stop thinking of the smirking girl who wanted Milo's book. Doesn't she realize this movement already wants to marginalize anyone female, and will viciously turn on her personally (much more harshly than if she was a man) if she publicly steps out of line?
All together now: "I'm not like those OTHER girls!"
posted by happyroach at 12:27 PM on October 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
All together now: "I'm not like those OTHER girls!"
posted by happyroach at 12:27 PM on October 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
Less than two years ago, a wonderful person I know (who is gay, black, and like me is in the tech industry) was approached by a good friend of his who wanted to hook him up with Milo, who apparently had asked to meet him specifically. At the time, this person hadn't heard of Milo, but knew he was a "big deal" of some kind. He asked some of us if we knew who Milo was, and oh boy did we, and told him to run far far away from this person, don't even meet him.
According to the biography of Robert Mapplethorpe, Mapplethorpe was both racist as well as erotically attracted to black men. Milton Moore, a black man who was one of Mapplethorpe's lovers, said, "I think he saw me like a monkey in a zoo."
posted by jonp72 at 12:34 PM on October 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
According to the biography of Robert Mapplethorpe, Mapplethorpe was both racist as well as erotically attracted to black men. Milton Moore, a black man who was one of Mapplethorpe's lovers, said, "I think he saw me like a monkey in a zoo."
posted by jonp72 at 12:34 PM on October 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
All together now: "I'm not like those OTHER girls!"
There was actually a really fascinating article about the women of the alt-right in Harper's Magazine last month. They do deal with pretty vicious sexism, but rationalize it as just a few bad apples.
posted by perplexion at 12:41 PM on October 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
There was actually a really fascinating article about the women of the alt-right in Harper's Magazine last month. They do deal with pretty vicious sexism, but rationalize it as just a few bad apples.
posted by perplexion at 12:41 PM on October 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Not that Milo is any sort of intellectual even by these standards - more of a celebrity/figurehead/profiteer I guess but it ends up being the same deal except dumber stakes.
Though it occurs to me this is suggesting that "reinstate monarchy and/or turn the whole of society into a joint-stock corporation" is a smarter plan than "swan about the country, draw crowds and probably do a whole lot of coke" and that is probably backwards.
posted by atoxyl at 12:57 PM on October 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
Though it occurs to me this is suggesting that "reinstate monarchy and/or turn the whole of society into a joint-stock corporation" is a smarter plan than "swan about the country, draw crowds and probably do a whole lot of coke" and that is probably backwards.
posted by atoxyl at 12:57 PM on October 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
This follow-up documents David Auerbach's complicated attempts to discredit the Buzzfeed story. He doesn't seem to actually deny sending the emails.
posted by chrchr at 1:05 PM on October 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 1:05 PM on October 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
So I'm thinking, if they really want to pass, if they want to be the secret agents they want to be, Dan Lyons and David Auerbach, now's the time to virtue-signal like you've never virtue-signalled before. Go all in and never stop. Attend the meetings, never post another bigoted tract, never email nasty shit again.
Look, David's never posted a bigoted tract anywhere, and lumping him in with Lyons is unfair. His response to GG was imperfect and optimistic, even naively so, but he was not a supporter of, or a GamerGater, himself. The question here for me was whether David had done what this article claims, and written the emails which are quoted under his name. His response is an unequivocal no, and he's posted screenshots to back this up (and has good reason to think that he's on Buzzfeed's shit list, enough so to be a small but definite target). I can't condemn someone on older and circumstantial evidence when the issue is Did he feed a despicable person with ammunition to keep his despicable persona going? He fervently denies it. There's enough horrible shit in the article that's perfectly believable and documented, and I'd rather not see someone swept up in a wave of disgust when they don't deserve it.
posted by jokeefe at 1:14 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Look, David's never posted a bigoted tract anywhere, and lumping him in with Lyons is unfair. His response to GG was imperfect and optimistic, even naively so, but he was not a supporter of, or a GamerGater, himself. The question here for me was whether David had done what this article claims, and written the emails which are quoted under his name. His response is an unequivocal no, and he's posted screenshots to back this up (and has good reason to think that he's on Buzzfeed's shit list, enough so to be a small but definite target). I can't condemn someone on older and circumstantial evidence when the issue is Did he feed a despicable person with ammunition to keep his despicable persona going? He fervently denies it. There's enough horrible shit in the article that's perfectly believable and documented, and I'd rather not see someone swept up in a wave of disgust when they don't deserve it.
posted by jokeefe at 1:14 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Boy, Do I Feel Naïve - Laura Wagner, Deadspin
posted by jason_steakums at 1:22 PM on October 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 1:22 PM on October 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Yeah this story makes it clear to me that the Alt-right is actually just the propaganda wing of Monarchists, rather than ideologues for white supremacy.
They use Nazi symbols and rhetorical gestures to create the right context for tyranny, not vice versa. In a lot of ways flirting (literally or figuratively) with White Ntionalism to gain power is worse than just being an old fashioned KKK dude.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:23 PM on October 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
They use Nazi symbols and rhetorical gestures to create the right context for tyranny, not vice versa. In a lot of ways flirting (literally or figuratively) with White Ntionalism to gain power is worse than just being an old fashioned KKK dude.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:23 PM on October 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
The Dallas Observer did the local follow-up on this story: Meet the Dallas Bartender Who Kicked Milo Yiannopoulos and Some Neo-Nazis Out of Her Bar. The bartender says she threw them the hell out after the video cuts off.
posted by zachlipton at 1:25 PM on October 6, 2017 [46 favorites]
"It was around 1 a.m. when [Yiannopoulos, Spencer and friends] came into the bar. It was very odd because they all had the same haircut," Amiti Perry says. "I had no idea who Richard Spencer was. I had no idea that was Milo. In fact, I had no idea that was Milo until today."I completely lost it at "it was very odd because they all had the same haircut."
...
Usually when someone sings at the bar without the help of the karaoke machine, they sing something familiar, like a show-tune, Perry says. "We had no idea what was about to happen. They started 'America the Beautiful,' and I looked at my co-workers and said 'This is odd,'" Perry says. "Then all of the sudden, halfway through the song, I see, from behind the stage, about 15 arms go up in the salute."
Perry says she lost it and rushed the stage, grabbing the microphone from Yiannopoulos just as the song, and video clip, ended. "I said 'Get the fuck out. You are not welcome here, at all,'" Perry says. "I was yelling at them, and, I remember this distinctly, they all came around me on the stage and were yelling things. Some were shouting 'Trump, Trump, Trump,' at that point it started to hit me who these people were, and then they started saying 'Make America Great Again.' Then I had people get in my face, it might have been Milo because he didn't immediately go outside, he was kind of getting them aroused, and they were saying 'Make America White Again.'"
posted by zachlipton at 1:25 PM on October 6, 2017 [46 favorites]
Is he going to say that he's also partially hearing-impaired, so he couldn't tell that he was participating in a white supremacist rally?
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:27 PM on October 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:27 PM on October 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
The question here for me was whether David had done what this article claims, and written the emails which are quoted under his name. His response is an unequivocal no, and he's posted screenshots to back this up
Andy Baio has a well documented dismantling of his argument, also with screenshots, mapping emails to his public statements on Twitter.
(and has good reason to think that he's on Buzzfeed's shit list, enough so to be a small but definite target).
Yes, he tried to pull a Harry Knowles, and it's working about as well for Auerbach.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:31 PM on October 6, 2017 [21 favorites]
Andy Baio has a well documented dismantling of his argument, also with screenshots, mapping emails to his public statements on Twitter.
(and has good reason to think that he's on Buzzfeed's shit list, enough so to be a small but definite target).
Yes, he tried to pull a Harry Knowles, and it's working about as well for Auerbach.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:31 PM on October 6, 2017 [21 favorites]
The "attacked by GG and heavy antis" construction may not fly as evidence in the court of law, but it convinces me beyond a shadow of an inkling of a doubt that he's 100% gater.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:36 PM on October 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 1:36 PM on October 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
A couple of months after the events in the article happened, the Daily Stormer guy went all "Milo betrayed us he's our worst enemy!!!!"
I'd link to the Salon article gloating about it that I found last night, but I'm not sure if I want to Google these people while at work.
posted by clawsoon at 1:36 PM on October 6, 2017
I'd link to the Salon article gloating about it that I found last night, but I'm not sure if I want to Google these people while at work.
posted by clawsoon at 1:36 PM on October 6, 2017
The question here for me was whether David had done what this article claims, and written the emails which are quoted under his name. His response is an unequivocal no, and he's posted screenshots to back this up (and has good reason to think that he's on Buzzfeed's shit list, enough so to be a small but definite target)
So you want to believe David so badly that you're willing to believe that BuzzFeed completely made this up, fabricated emails, to get back at him for antagonizing the organization somehow. The writers of the article were so offended on behalf of their publication that they made up some libel, and then their editors signed off on it because nobody in the entire organization has any sense of journalistic professionalism or ethics -- they're all mini-Trumps using a bullhorn to settle scores. Mini-Trumps down to the reckless disregard for the advice of lawyers, and scores they apparently feel personally on behalf of the brand name Buzz Feed.
Now as it turns out, there is evidence that he could have written these things -- what he ultimately says is that he didn't write "all of them" then refuses to clarify.
But even if there weren't that evidence -- believing him in this scenario requires sigfniciant mental gymnastics. And, respectfully, it's this kind of willfull unwillingness to believe someone you may know and like could be aggressively sexist / racist that enables sexism and racism.
posted by mrmurbles at 1:50 PM on October 6, 2017 [50 favorites]
So you want to believe David so badly that you're willing to believe that BuzzFeed completely made this up, fabricated emails, to get back at him for antagonizing the organization somehow. The writers of the article were so offended on behalf of their publication that they made up some libel, and then their editors signed off on it because nobody in the entire organization has any sense of journalistic professionalism or ethics -- they're all mini-Trumps using a bullhorn to settle scores. Mini-Trumps down to the reckless disregard for the advice of lawyers, and scores they apparently feel personally on behalf of the brand name Buzz Feed.
Now as it turns out, there is evidence that he could have written these things -- what he ultimately says is that he didn't write "all of them" then refuses to clarify.
But even if there weren't that evidence -- believing him in this scenario requires sigfniciant mental gymnastics. And, respectfully, it's this kind of willfull unwillingness to believe someone you may know and like could be aggressively sexist / racist that enables sexism and racism.
posted by mrmurbles at 1:50 PM on October 6, 2017 [50 favorites]
"it was very odd because they all had the same haircut."
I had this experience last year before the women's march. Some friends I was marching with were staying at a hotel in Gaithersburg that apparently was Pepe Inauguration Central, and I went in to the lobby to pick them up and it was like someone left the clone machine on overnight by accident. Terrifying.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:52 PM on October 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
I had this experience last year before the women's march. Some friends I was marching with were staying at a hotel in Gaithersburg that apparently was Pepe Inauguration Central, and I went in to the lobby to pick them up and it was like someone left the clone machine on overnight by accident. Terrifying.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:52 PM on October 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
It's like a popular floppy undercut, and it's been my ideal haircut forever since I was 12 so fuck them for ruining yet another good thing. I guess I should have known when I found out it was sometimes referred to as the Hitler Youth cut that it should probably be dropped...
posted by yellowbinder at 2:04 PM on October 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by yellowbinder at 2:04 PM on October 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
I'm an email administrator. Email spoofing used to be a relatively easy thing to do, but it's *not* that easy any more. There are multiple authentication methods in use by most email receivers that tie email back to sending domains or IPs and that validate that the body hasn't been changed.
Unless Auerbach has gone out of the way, historically, to NOT authenticate his sent mail in some way (and most people wouldn't know enough to do that), it's not going to be hard to say "these came from him and are unmodified" if they're authenticated at all. And I'm sure Buzzfeed is smart enough to know that and test them ahead of time.
posted by hanov3r at 2:29 PM on October 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Unless Auerbach has gone out of the way, historically, to NOT authenticate his sent mail in some way (and most people wouldn't know enough to do that), it's not going to be hard to say "these came from him and are unmodified" if they're authenticated at all. And I'm sure Buzzfeed is smart enough to know that and test them ahead of time.
posted by hanov3r at 2:29 PM on October 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Auerbach recast that conflict into one where the GamerGaters were the poor victims, not the perpetrators
Fuck him. I watched Gamergate go down, I know Anita. Fuck him. I will believe the absolute worst of anyone who abetted that bullshit misogynist hate-fest. It was bullshit from beginning to end (it's not over) and anyone who bought into it deserves everything he gets.
posted by suelac at 2:32 PM on October 6, 2017 [42 favorites]
Fuck him. I watched Gamergate go down, I know Anita. Fuck him. I will believe the absolute worst of anyone who abetted that bullshit misogynist hate-fest. It was bullshit from beginning to end (it's not over) and anyone who bought into it deserves everything he gets.
posted by suelac at 2:32 PM on October 6, 2017 [42 favorites]
Look, David's never posted a bigoted tract anywhere, and lumping him in with Lyons is unfair.
All of the guys called out here - and the other folks who are starting to get pulled in - are nominally liberal writers trying to play "both sides" to some personal end, or ingratiate themselves with a consistent source of controversy and page views, or messing around with their media buddies because it's a fun game. Thing is, playing that game with people like Milo is dangerous to despicable.
posted by atoxyl at 2:42 PM on October 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
All of the guys called out here - and the other folks who are starting to get pulled in - are nominally liberal writers trying to play "both sides" to some personal end, or ingratiate themselves with a consistent source of controversy and page views, or messing around with their media buddies because it's a fun game. Thing is, playing that game with people like Milo is dangerous to despicable.
posted by atoxyl at 2:42 PM on October 6, 2017 [14 favorites]
I was raised - by Evangelical Christians, no less - to think of "always consider both sides" as a moral imperative. It's part of why I ended up leaving the church; it's part of why I ended up agreeing with you pinko commie feminists on so many issues, despite starting in a very different place.
It's a hard thing to give up. But each time that someone - here, usually - shows how the other side causes real harm, giving it up gets easier.
posted by clawsoon at 2:56 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's a hard thing to give up. But each time that someone - here, usually - shows how the other side causes real harm, giving it up gets easier.
posted by clawsoon at 2:56 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
"consider both sides" doesn't exclude considering that one side is completely full of toxic horseshit
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:09 PM on October 6, 2017 [31 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:09 PM on October 6, 2017 [31 favorites]
It's perfectly legitimate to ask someone to consider both sides, determine which one is reasonable and which one is horseshit, and then write something for publication. You can do the considering before you write the article. That's not too much to ask.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:12 PM on October 6, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:12 PM on October 6, 2017 [16 favorites]
Given how prevalent this attitude for "balance" is, I sometimes wonder if we should be hunting down the shambling animated corpse of David Broder before it bites another media personality.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:21 PM on October 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:21 PM on October 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
I enjoyed Dan Lyons' book, but couldn't help notice that he was astonished that someone might think that conversations about whether or not to hire a hot young au pair were inappropriate for the office -- while taking ageist slurs like "it's cool that we're hiring older guys here" deadly seriously.
posted by Ralston McTodd at 3:24 PM on October 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Ralston McTodd at 3:24 PM on October 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
"Spoofing was common back then" in... 2016? Er, no. As hanov3r says, the techniques that allowed spoofing don't get through most reputable mail providers these days, especially not ones like GMail.
This is tangential. Auerbach was writing publicly in bad faith about GG irrespective of his private contacts, and the point of the story is to show how the m*l* project includes laundering white supremacism and cultivating the attention of credulous tech dudes.
posted by holgate at 3:35 PM on October 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
This is tangential. Auerbach was writing publicly in bad faith about GG irrespective of his private contacts, and the point of the story is to show how the m*l* project includes laundering white supremacism and cultivating the attention of credulous tech dudes.
posted by holgate at 3:35 PM on October 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
Andy Baio has a well documented dismantling of his argument, also with screenshots, mapping emails to his public statements on Twitter.
Jesus, this is really difficult. I'll step away for now.
posted by jokeefe at 4:22 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Jesus, this is really difficult. I'll step away for now.
posted by jokeefe at 4:22 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I mean: I know damn well what GG-ers and all those toxic shitheads think of people like me: feminist, lesbian, zaftig, pushing sixty. A gray-haired SJW, beneath contempt. When I first read the article last night I shed some genuine tears of horror at the thought that someone I think of as a friend could be in league with them, and I don't want to believe it, and it hurts. And now I'll step back.
posted by jokeefe at 4:28 PM on October 6, 2017 [29 favorites]
posted by jokeefe at 4:28 PM on October 6, 2017 [29 favorites]
Dan Lyons' second attempt at apologizing is really not an improvement over not apologizing at all.
posted by zachlipton at 10:30 PM on October 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 10:30 PM on October 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Let me try to give Lyons the benefit of the doubt here, because my local knowledge gave me a slight head start on American tech people who weren't viscerally aware m*l* was a leaky sack of shit.
[Looks around at generally decent American tech people and what they did around the same time.]
Yeah, no. He chose poorly.
posted by holgate at 10:46 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
[Looks around at generally decent American tech people and what they did around the same time.]
Yeah, no. He chose poorly.
posted by holgate at 10:46 PM on October 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Really fascinating the sycophantic crossover between liberal media and alt-right. Like, why does Yasher Ali love Mike Cernovich so much?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:17 AM on October 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:17 AM on October 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
I don't understand Milo. He's gay. He's Jewish. He's a foreigner.
He doesn't believe that leopards actually eat faces.
Eh. Milo has successfully moved from purveying hate to Catholics to gamers to the US body politic. He'd just move back to the UK and enjoy the money.
posted by jaduncan at 1:59 AM on October 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
He doesn't believe that leopards actually eat faces.
Eh. Milo has successfully moved from purveying hate to Catholics to gamers to the US body politic. He'd just move back to the UK and enjoy the money.
posted by jaduncan at 1:59 AM on October 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
i don't even know how to describe it and kind of feel like an idiot for not knowing. or have they just co-opted the Standard Man Haircut?
That haircut was sort of a men's styleblogger/queer haircut since about 2010 - and just got super popular. I had it for a while, actually, before it was the fashy cut. I don't remember the language I used to get it - something about a fade. It's still a queer haircut here in Minneapolis, but this is a provincial city.
One of the things I don't think has been pointed out in all this is the role that straight guy fashion scenes probably play in all this - there's a whole lot of trendy straight white guy styles where important people seem to be associated with the alt-right, like all that 'health goth' stuff that was going around. I had weird feelings about vaporwave because it seemed extremely white in a weird way, and that linked article suggests that there is indeed something off about it. I'd gotten a bad, bad vibe off a lot of that stuff for no particular reason - just because the message boards and sales boards seemed to fetishize both being very rich and being an asshole, and because a lot of it seemed geared to tech bros.
What's happened is that things that used to go together have been split apart. Up through even the nineties, the right had a strong element of puritanism and a sort of stylistic bias for the old-fashioned, and all these things were used to express white supremacy. (Which you see in the moral panics about rap, the distrust of dancing, the obsession with being anti-marijuana, the anti-sex and anti-porn attitudes.) So there was a sort of heuristic of "people who like dancing and rap and sex and having a good time can't be all bad, being liberal about culture is reliable shorthand for being liberal in politics". That's not to say that literally every person who had liberal cultural tastes was politically liberal, but it wasn't a wildly incorrect assumption.
And what happened - I'm going to draw on the old Baffler ideas from the nineties - was that in the nineties and onward, all that stuff peeled apart, but we missed it. You can be a huge racist and love hip-hop. You can be a huge racist, a huge homophobe and an active advocate for inequality and be super into contemporary fashion and culture. That's what these young guys are - a lot of them love hip-hop and see no contradiction between loving hip-hop and hating Black people. They love fashion, they take stuff from the queer community all the time and they hate gay people. They hate women and things they associate with women, but they no longer associate caring about their appearance or following fashion with women. Basically, capitalism has effectively disassociated all things from and kind of non-consumption-related meaning, so they are totally free to be racist yet enjoy Black cultural production,etc. It's not like this is a 100% new thing, but the completeness with which it has happened is new.
I also associate this with the rise of tech bros, because all these scenes fetishize expense and often very specific wealthy people. Another thing that has happened with the deepening of inequality is that where fashion and the arts used to have some percentage of successful people who started out poor, now that's pretty rare, and there's this fascination with the type of person who is in their teens or early twenties, super wealthy due to family money, and jet sets around the world being an "influencer" or "collaborator". Again, not that this is 100% new, but the pervasiveness and unquestionedness of it is new.
Or rather, it's not new-new - it's the old aristocratic tradition, that if you're rich enough you drink and drug and rape and shop your way through life, and people should admire you for this because you're rich.
But anyway. There's always room for one gay person or one person of color in these movements, at least until the endgame - one is a mascot and a bit of a joke, where two or three or ten would be a community, and dangerous. One gay person is reassuring proof that we aren't homophobic - until it's time to draw the knives, and then not being homophobic doesn't matter anymore. And there's always someone who is desperate enough for approval or enough of a greedy chancer that they'll fill that role. If they're stupid enough, they get hurt or killed; if they're smart and quick, they get out with the money.
The alt-right headspace is a baby-man headspace - it's all "I don't want to feel bad". So there can only be two stages: "we have a gay guy here, so we're not homophobic, because we would feel bad about ourselves if we were; we just hate those other gay people" and "we have killed or excluded all gay people everywhere, so no one is left to make us feel bad about ourselves". The whole point is that they can't handle the idea that they are not perfect marble gods.
As to fashion, I think it's dead. The whole thing - it's shambling around like a decaying zombie, but still dead. We don't live in a world where cultural gestures do much except to the degree that they are also explicitly political gestures - everything else is just churned up by the corporate/rightist machine. Maybe we'll have fashion again after the revolution.
posted by Frowner at 5:37 AM on October 7, 2017 [65 favorites]
That haircut was sort of a men's styleblogger/queer haircut since about 2010 - and just got super popular. I had it for a while, actually, before it was the fashy cut. I don't remember the language I used to get it - something about a fade. It's still a queer haircut here in Minneapolis, but this is a provincial city.
One of the things I don't think has been pointed out in all this is the role that straight guy fashion scenes probably play in all this - there's a whole lot of trendy straight white guy styles where important people seem to be associated with the alt-right, like all that 'health goth' stuff that was going around. I had weird feelings about vaporwave because it seemed extremely white in a weird way, and that linked article suggests that there is indeed something off about it. I'd gotten a bad, bad vibe off a lot of that stuff for no particular reason - just because the message boards and sales boards seemed to fetishize both being very rich and being an asshole, and because a lot of it seemed geared to tech bros.
What's happened is that things that used to go together have been split apart. Up through even the nineties, the right had a strong element of puritanism and a sort of stylistic bias for the old-fashioned, and all these things were used to express white supremacy. (Which you see in the moral panics about rap, the distrust of dancing, the obsession with being anti-marijuana, the anti-sex and anti-porn attitudes.) So there was a sort of heuristic of "people who like dancing and rap and sex and having a good time can't be all bad, being liberal about culture is reliable shorthand for being liberal in politics". That's not to say that literally every person who had liberal cultural tastes was politically liberal, but it wasn't a wildly incorrect assumption.
And what happened - I'm going to draw on the old Baffler ideas from the nineties - was that in the nineties and onward, all that stuff peeled apart, but we missed it. You can be a huge racist and love hip-hop. You can be a huge racist, a huge homophobe and an active advocate for inequality and be super into contemporary fashion and culture. That's what these young guys are - a lot of them love hip-hop and see no contradiction between loving hip-hop and hating Black people. They love fashion, they take stuff from the queer community all the time and they hate gay people. They hate women and things they associate with women, but they no longer associate caring about their appearance or following fashion with women. Basically, capitalism has effectively disassociated all things from and kind of non-consumption-related meaning, so they are totally free to be racist yet enjoy Black cultural production,etc. It's not like this is a 100% new thing, but the completeness with which it has happened is new.
I also associate this with the rise of tech bros, because all these scenes fetishize expense and often very specific wealthy people. Another thing that has happened with the deepening of inequality is that where fashion and the arts used to have some percentage of successful people who started out poor, now that's pretty rare, and there's this fascination with the type of person who is in their teens or early twenties, super wealthy due to family money, and jet sets around the world being an "influencer" or "collaborator". Again, not that this is 100% new, but the pervasiveness and unquestionedness of it is new.
Or rather, it's not new-new - it's the old aristocratic tradition, that if you're rich enough you drink and drug and rape and shop your way through life, and people should admire you for this because you're rich.
But anyway. There's always room for one gay person or one person of color in these movements, at least until the endgame - one is a mascot and a bit of a joke, where two or three or ten would be a community, and dangerous. One gay person is reassuring proof that we aren't homophobic - until it's time to draw the knives, and then not being homophobic doesn't matter anymore. And there's always someone who is desperate enough for approval or enough of a greedy chancer that they'll fill that role. If they're stupid enough, they get hurt or killed; if they're smart and quick, they get out with the money.
The alt-right headspace is a baby-man headspace - it's all "I don't want to feel bad". So there can only be two stages: "we have a gay guy here, so we're not homophobic, because we would feel bad about ourselves if we were; we just hate those other gay people" and "we have killed or excluded all gay people everywhere, so no one is left to make us feel bad about ourselves". The whole point is that they can't handle the idea that they are not perfect marble gods.
As to fashion, I think it's dead. The whole thing - it's shambling around like a decaying zombie, but still dead. We don't live in a world where cultural gestures do much except to the degree that they are also explicitly political gestures - everything else is just churned up by the corporate/rightist machine. Maybe we'll have fashion again after the revolution.
posted by Frowner at 5:37 AM on October 7, 2017 [65 favorites]
A number of the more intellectual far-right guys are playing with fire - Yarvin/Moldbug for example also has Jewish heritage - in assuming that the vulgar Nazis can be controlled to their ends.
IDK it worked out pretty well for the Weimar conservatioh wait nevermind
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:12 AM on October 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
IDK it worked out pretty well for the Weimar conservatioh wait nevermind
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:12 AM on October 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Another thing that has happened with the deepening of inequality is that where fashion and the arts used to have some percentage of successful people who started out poor, now that's pretty rare, and there's this fascination with the type of person who is in their teens or early twenties, super wealthy due to family money, and jet sets around the world being an "influencer" or "collaborator". Again, not that this is 100% new, but the pervasiveness and unquestionedness of it is new.
Or rather, it's not new-new - it's the old aristocratic tradition, that if you're rich enough you drink and drug and rape and shop your way through life, and people should admire you for this because you're rich.
This really clarifies something I've been thinking about with the money sloshing around these fascist movements from benefactors, the tech money, the considerable money that can be made from things like YouTube and Twitch when you tap into these audiences... it's a recipe for breeding the white fascist version of those minor Saudi princes who go around funding extremism while still partying it up in ways that the extremists they fund would find sacrilegious. People who feel untouchable because of their own benefactors (the Mercers + Trump here, the Saudi royal family there) out there feeding hate movements in a way that seems more like the purchased lifestyle of the rich guy in leathers revving his Harley than the bone-deep devotion to The Cause that they're nurturing in others. Common People-style lifestyle tourism for fascism.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:13 AM on October 7, 2017 [18 favorites]
Or rather, it's not new-new - it's the old aristocratic tradition, that if you're rich enough you drink and drug and rape and shop your way through life, and people should admire you for this because you're rich.
This really clarifies something I've been thinking about with the money sloshing around these fascist movements from benefactors, the tech money, the considerable money that can be made from things like YouTube and Twitch when you tap into these audiences... it's a recipe for breeding the white fascist version of those minor Saudi princes who go around funding extremism while still partying it up in ways that the extremists they fund would find sacrilegious. People who feel untouchable because of their own benefactors (the Mercers + Trump here, the Saudi royal family there) out there feeding hate movements in a way that seems more like the purchased lifestyle of the rich guy in leathers revving his Harley than the bone-deep devotion to The Cause that they're nurturing in others. Common People-style lifestyle tourism for fascism.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:13 AM on October 7, 2017 [18 favorites]
always already the mitford sisters, is what you're saying
posted by PMdixon at 8:46 AM on October 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by PMdixon at 8:46 AM on October 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
I guess I don't get why anyone is surprised at these liberal media guys palling around behind the scenes, when they were palling around in front of the scenes as well.
posted by running order squabble fest at 11:12 AM on October 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by running order squabble fest at 11:12 AM on October 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Although she's not mentioned in the OP BuzzFeed article, this follow up Deadspin article linked earlier heavily implies that Olivia Nuzzi (New York magazine) is also backchannel pals with these cretins, pretty much explaining her positive Cernovich profile.
posted by PenDevil at 11:48 AM on October 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by PenDevil at 11:48 AM on October 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
I caught that reference to Nuzzi as well but I couldn't find any other link to her besides that offhand throwaway. Has anyone seen such a link?
posted by Justinian at 12:23 PM on October 7, 2017
posted by Justinian at 12:23 PM on October 7, 2017
The haircut was standard issue metrosexual right up until the moment Spencer got punched.
posted by rhizome at 12:38 PM on October 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 12:38 PM on October 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
Nuzzi is on twitter saying that she was friendly with Milo when he was just a troll, before he was alt right. Not clear when that was, but that's what she's saying. She's also getting all victim-y about how nothing she can say won't be misconstrued, blah, blah, blah, woe is me.
She's also 24. I hadn't realized she was quite that young.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:57 PM on October 7, 2017
She's also 24. I hadn't realized she was quite that young.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:57 PM on October 7, 2017
I’ve been really terrified some of my social network got infected with this poison and that’s played a role in how spectacularly and quickly my family fell apart, but I can’t let myself even consider it because my abandonment PTSD makes me prone to trust issues/hyper-vigilance about breakdowns in my close friendships and family relations; trying to sort out the reality from all the trolling and utter lack of decency and good faith bubbling up into broader society from this festering mass of resentment and shallow indifference to the reality of other people’s lives makes it impossible to parse the more paranoid ideas and worries from the more reasonable ones, so it’s been a mindfuck for me for a couple of years now. I still feel intensely anxious when people even bring up Gamer Gate because that whole confusing and hateful mess was when I first realized I’m just out of my depth, socially, in this new internet hate fueled social reality we’ve created. I’m just too simple, I think, to even know how to follow along and make sense of any of it anymore.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:02 PM on October 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 1:02 PM on October 7, 2017 [5 favorites]
Has anyone seen such a link?
There's apparently some twitter comments from her to these creeps referencing a shared email chain they're on.
Also, that profile of Cernovich
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:18 PM on October 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
There's apparently some twitter comments from her to these creeps referencing a shared email chain they're on.
Also, that profile of Cernovich
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:18 PM on October 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
As mentioned upthread, Bethesda embraces anti-Nazi stance with Wolfenstein: 'When it comes to Nazis, you can put us down in the 'against' column.' Such a beautiful paragraph:
The Wolfenstein series [...] became more widely known as an FPS series in 1992 with id Software's Wolfenstein 3D, a game about killing Nazis, and the prequel Spear of Destiny, which was also about killing Nazis. The series was rebooted in 2001 by Activision with Return to Castle Wolfenstein, a game about killing Nazis, but went dormant again until the release of Wolfenstein, a game about killing Nazis, in 2009. Bethesda acquired the series along with id Software and gave it a powerful character-driven twist in 2014 with Wolfenstein: The New Order, a game about killing Nazis, and then followed up a year later with Wolfenstein: The Old Blood, a "standalone expansion" prequel about killing Nazis.posted by nicebookrack at 2:18 PM on October 7, 2017 [34 favorites]
There's also that series of screencaps in the Deadspin article of Nuzzi's tweets to Ann Coulter asking Coulter to be her friend about once a month for a nine month stretch and wtf, on top of the shittiness of being a Coulter fan it's also really creepy.
posted by jason_steakums at 3:53 PM on October 7, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 3:53 PM on October 7, 2017 [8 favorites]
On my way home from work today, I heard this amusing (in retrospect) interview with Wil Hylton, re his NYT Magazine piece, Down the Breitbart Hole. I found it amusing as Hylton is directly asked whether he thinks Breitbart has a problem with anti-Semitism and he responds with an emphatic no. If anything exemplifies the NY Times's inability to see what is in front of their nose when it comes to Breitbart, it's this article and that interview.
posted by longdaysjourney at 6:08 PM on October 8, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by longdaysjourney at 6:08 PM on October 8, 2017 [4 favorites]
From way upthread:
At that point, history teaches us that the camps are not far off. - adamgreenfield
At this point, I feel like we're maybe five years away from the camps, max. If the Nazis manage to steal 2021, then the camps won't be more than a year away - happyroach
The camps are already here, and have been here for decades. They're called prisons or detention centers. They just affect Black people, Latinx people, and Muslims. Slavery is perfectly legal. Most white people don't see it because it largely doesn't affect them. Will there be camps for Jews and LGBT folks? I don't know. I do know that trans women and LGBT youth are already particularly subject to human rights abuses in prison/detention.
It really bothers me when people say we're on the verge of [terrible thing] without mentioning all the [terrible things] that go on but haven't been a threat to them.
posted by AFABulous at 8:43 AM on October 9, 2017 [38 favorites]
At that point, history teaches us that the camps are not far off. - adamgreenfield
At this point, I feel like we're maybe five years away from the camps, max. If the Nazis manage to steal 2021, then the camps won't be more than a year away - happyroach
The camps are already here, and have been here for decades. They're called prisons or detention centers. They just affect Black people, Latinx people, and Muslims. Slavery is perfectly legal. Most white people don't see it because it largely doesn't affect them. Will there be camps for Jews and LGBT folks? I don't know. I do know that trans women and LGBT youth are already particularly subject to human rights abuses in prison/detention.
It really bothers me when people say we're on the verge of [terrible thing] without mentioning all the [terrible things] that go on but haven't been a threat to them.
posted by AFABulous at 8:43 AM on October 9, 2017 [38 favorites]
I wonder which billionaire is bankrolling Cathy Young to help destroy the middle class.
posted by Yowser at 6:32 PM on October 11, 2017
posted by Yowser at 6:32 PM on October 11, 2017
And the Wolfenstein team has a new trailer with Nazi punching.
They're really leaning in on the "fuck Nazis, no seriously" thing.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:53 AM on October 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
They're really leaning in on the "fuck Nazis, no seriously" thing.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:53 AM on October 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
Pretty good, but not as good as the one where the two Nazis complain about how the Resistance are too violent and call anyone they disagree with a Nazi while discussing their death camp postings.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:25 AM on October 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 11:25 AM on October 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
CJR's Watchdog column: The beat reporter behind BuzzFeed’s blockbuster alt-right investigation
posted by zarq at 6:34 AM on October 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by zarq at 6:34 AM on October 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
YouTube Trumpkin and Former Milo Intern Kills His Own Dad for Calling Him a Nazi: Lane Davis was a prolific poster on the Donald Trump subreddit, a former intern for Milo, and an editor for a prominent GamerGater’s conspiracy site. Then, one day, he snapped.
posted by homunculus at 1:06 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 1:06 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
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This is the part that chills me to the bone. The suggestion that maybe, in the end, there are more of them than there are of us.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:03 PM on October 5, 2017 [53 favorites]