“We don’t really need to teach our sons not to rape"
October 22, 2017 4:40 PM Subscribe
‘I Was Willing to Do Everything’: Mothers Defend Sons Accused of Sexual Assault Hearing that the university was about to start a fund-raising drive, and thus would not want bad publicity, Ms. Seefeld said, she emailed its president about 9 p.m. one night. She wrote that she had hired a lawyer to look into suing the university, and a public relations firm to help her publicize her son’s case, she said. “Within 30 minutes I heard from the president,” she said, and he told her the case would be reviewed.
Warning: campus rape.
Previously and related.
Previously and related.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Sorry for the late delete, but we have a number of open posts about rape and sexual assault, and this is, in the end, a fairly thin NYT story about how parents will defend their children after terrible things, which isn't really enough to support an entire discussion, especially given the several other open posts. -- Eyebrows McGee
I'd say this was the aleph of all Nytimes "what about the other side, no matter how vile or repugnant" articles, but I'm sure there will be one in six months or so about the mothers of mass shooters celebrating the total removal of all gun control from America.
posted by selfnoise at 4:47 PM on October 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by selfnoise at 4:47 PM on October 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
Seriously, fuck these selfish, awful people:
“In my generation, what these girls are going through was never considered assault,” Judith said. “It was considered, ‘I was stupid and I got embarrassed.’”
Getting embarrassed? That's what you're fucking calling rape? Your son is a rapist. The girl did not "get embarrassed", Judith - your son raped her.
posted by Dysk at 4:48 PM on October 22, 2017 [27 favorites]
“In my generation, what these girls are going through was never considered assault,” Judith said. “It was considered, ‘I was stupid and I got embarrassed.’”
Getting embarrassed? That's what you're fucking calling rape? Your son is a rapist. The girl did not "get embarrassed", Judith - your son raped her.
posted by Dysk at 4:48 PM on October 22, 2017 [27 favorites]
I freely admit that I am astonished - and not a little skeptical - to read that the young men in question were "dropped by their friends" and "pariahs on campus". In my entire life I've known exactly one person who was sort of a pariah after it came out that he'd raped someone. Everyone else - well, they lost some friends, yes, but mainly went on as before. I'd like to attend a school where rapists were pariahs, if I thought that such a place existed.
posted by Frowner at 4:49 PM on October 22, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 4:49 PM on October 22, 2017 [16 favorites]
I just submitted this comment; let's see if they print it.
I find it VERY peculiar - if not suspicious - that at a time when we are finally hearing of a longstanding pattern of sexual misconduct at the hands of Harvey Weinstein, abuse which had been covered up for and excused by the majority of his peers, the NEW YORK TIMES has chosen to devote its attention not to an analysis of the longstanding impact of sexual abuse on women; but rather, to the mothers of those accused of sexual assault, and to their dispersion on the victims.posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:02 PM on October 22, 2017 [33 favorites]
The attitude that "this was just someone who had regrets after the fact" and "she was asking for it" and such are already pervasive in society, and are precisely the reason who Harvey Weinstein's victims didn't come forward for years. Did you REALLY think they needed yet ANOTHER airing? Really?
I also hate this article and its timing, but at some point to dismantle this whole fucked up thing we're going to have to deal with women, mothers, who are enablers to their rapist sons or victim blamers to their daughters. I could go on for ages (I won't) about all the women who protected abusers I know and shunned victims until they would stop bringing it up. These women pass the patriarchy on through body shaming, keep sweet mentalities, and enforcing hierarchies of women who deserve protection or not.
(there are of course male victims and female abusers, including mothers - but for the purpose of campus sexual assault and how mothers play into it, I simplified things)
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 5:09 PM on October 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
(there are of course male victims and female abusers, including mothers - but for the purpose of campus sexual assault and how mothers play into it, I simplified things)
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 5:09 PM on October 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's possible to "deal with" the enablers without legitimizing their opinions.
The article focuses on women who tried to defend their sons, and successfully got colleges to drop an assault suit. Why not focus on women who FAILED to defend their sons, and ultimately came around to realizing that "you know what, by enabling him I was doing more harm than good"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:12 PM on October 22, 2017 [7 favorites]
The article focuses on women who tried to defend their sons, and successfully got colleges to drop an assault suit. Why not focus on women who FAILED to defend their sons, and ultimately came around to realizing that "you know what, by enabling him I was doing more harm than good"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:12 PM on October 22, 2017 [7 favorites]
god if i had a son and he raped someone i would kill him myself
posted by poffin boffin at 5:22 PM on October 22, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 5:22 PM on October 22, 2017 [11 favorites]
Do any of these rapists have fathers? the NYT doesn't care.
no, I take it back, the NYT actually does care a little bit -- they don't let you get away with assuming these are all single or divorced mothers, they explain why these family rapist fan clubs are frequently headed by mothers and not fathers: because women don't have jobs, duh. so, more free time. And what do all the dads think of their sons' activities and their wives' positions? who cares, am I right? I'm right. Or maybe the NYT tried to get some thoughtful quotes from them but couldn't do it. so hard to get hold of a man for an interview when he's always busy being employed and out of the house, it literally can't be done.
anyone who remembers a couple of recent high-profile rape trials can easily call to mind some very explicit statements by rapist's fathers about how great their sons are. I missed all the high-profile stories all about nasty dads and their shameful betrayal of feminism, though, the ones that barely even mentioned their sons' crimes in any detail or their sons by name, because they were so focused on the despicable ideology of the dads. bet there were a lot though. weird that I can't find any on metafilter's front page right this second.
just as interesting to me as why the NYT or Playboy wants to blame women for defending rapists more than it wants to blame rapists for raping is why Metafilter in the aggregate is so enthused about joining in on this same angle of approach, as noted in the "related" link above. I don't mean it's a mystery -- when men and women do the exact same thing (loving rapists, blaming victims) it's always worse when women do it. that's understood; that's what the double standard is all about. so maybe "interesting" is the wrong word.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:24 PM on October 22, 2017 [12 favorites]
no, I take it back, the NYT actually does care a little bit -- they don't let you get away with assuming these are all single or divorced mothers, they explain why these family rapist fan clubs are frequently headed by mothers and not fathers: because women don't have jobs, duh. so, more free time. And what do all the dads think of their sons' activities and their wives' positions? who cares, am I right? I'm right. Or maybe the NYT tried to get some thoughtful quotes from them but couldn't do it. so hard to get hold of a man for an interview when he's always busy being employed and out of the house, it literally can't be done.
anyone who remembers a couple of recent high-profile rape trials can easily call to mind some very explicit statements by rapist's fathers about how great their sons are. I missed all the high-profile stories all about nasty dads and their shameful betrayal of feminism, though, the ones that barely even mentioned their sons' crimes in any detail or their sons by name, because they were so focused on the despicable ideology of the dads. bet there were a lot though. weird that I can't find any on metafilter's front page right this second.
just as interesting to me as why the NYT or Playboy wants to blame women for defending rapists more than it wants to blame rapists for raping is why Metafilter in the aggregate is so enthused about joining in on this same angle of approach, as noted in the "related" link above. I don't mean it's a mystery -- when men and women do the exact same thing (loving rapists, blaming victims) it's always worse when women do it. that's understood; that's what the double standard is all about. so maybe "interesting" is the wrong word.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:24 PM on October 22, 2017 [12 favorites]
Why not focus on women who FAILED to defend their sons
funny story -- a woman who did just that was huge but unseen part of the backstory to the"Mindhunter" show that just came out. a character was based on a real-life man whose mother figured out early on that women were not safe around him, and made a huge point of keeping the young women she worked with away from him, to the point of not letting him even talk to them, let alone date them. she valued these women and girls' safety over the feelings of her own son.
this made him very angry! so he killed her.
there is no lesson here. no good lesson at least.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:33 PM on October 22, 2017 [9 favorites]
funny story -- a woman who did just that was huge but unseen part of the backstory to the"Mindhunter" show that just came out. a character was based on a real-life man whose mother figured out early on that women were not safe around him, and made a huge point of keeping the young women she worked with away from him, to the point of not letting him even talk to them, let alone date them. she valued these women and girls' safety over the feelings of her own son.
this made him very angry! so he killed her.
there is no lesson here. no good lesson at least.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:33 PM on October 22, 2017 [9 favorites]
... “How many times have I told you, you need to keep it zippered,” she said she told him.
huh I wonder what tree this apple fell off of
posted by Countess Elena at 5:39 PM on October 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
huh I wonder what tree this apple fell off of
posted by Countess Elena at 5:39 PM on October 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's possible to "deal with" the enablers without legitimizing their opinions.
you'll note, I agree with you.
I also hate this article and its timing
I wish they didn't chase this story like this, didn't focus it like this, didn't hang it solely on campus rape, talked more about how victimhood - or the lack of victimhood resulting in a just world fallacy horrifically passed down as a code of morals - turns into enabling. I honestly wish this hadn't been posted here as a single article without more context of the whole issue if that's what we're meant to discuss.
So yeah, i agree with you fully. I was just throwing my hat in the ring for maybe in another time or place this can be discussed because it is important.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 5:40 PM on October 22, 2017
you'll note, I agree with you.
I also hate this article and its timing
I wish they didn't chase this story like this, didn't focus it like this, didn't hang it solely on campus rape, talked more about how victimhood - or the lack of victimhood resulting in a just world fallacy horrifically passed down as a code of morals - turns into enabling. I honestly wish this hadn't been posted here as a single article without more context of the whole issue if that's what we're meant to discuss.
So yeah, i agree with you fully. I was just throwing my hat in the ring for maybe in another time or place this can be discussed because it is important.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 5:40 PM on October 22, 2017
I wasn't disputing your notion that it could be discussed. I was disputing the WAY it seems you wanted to discuss it.
We're both focusing on the "mothers who defend their sons" angle. We both agree that their efforts are perpetuating the patriarchy. But I'm saying that it's possible to address that issue by simultaneously acknowledging that very fact; however (unless I am misreading you) it seems that you aren't necessarily saying this should be pointed out.
The NYT article definitely isn't pointing that out.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:49 PM on October 22, 2017
We're both focusing on the "mothers who defend their sons" angle. We both agree that their efforts are perpetuating the patriarchy. But I'm saying that it's possible to address that issue by simultaneously acknowledging that very fact; however (unless I am misreading you) it seems that you aren't necessarily saying this should be pointed out.
The NYT article definitely isn't pointing that out.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:49 PM on October 22, 2017
In all seriousness, the prospect of raising a bad human being is so horrifying that it's one of the reasons I'm content not to have any children. It takes a Dalai Lama-esque strength of character to deal with it in a way that's both moral and merciful. It doesn't come as a surprise that any given Karen will not show this quality immediately.
Although it is important not to forget that women serve as patriarchal enforcers, it's also important to look at who's telling their stories, and whether they are distinctly trying to be unhelpful. It's like white people who frequently point out a history of slavery in pre-contact America and Africa. They generally aren't just saying that to share an interesting fact about the rich tapestry of history. They're saying it to encourage everybody to throw up their hands and forget about trying to make anything right.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:50 PM on October 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
Although it is important not to forget that women serve as patriarchal enforcers, it's also important to look at who's telling their stories, and whether they are distinctly trying to be unhelpful. It's like white people who frequently point out a history of slavery in pre-contact America and Africa. They generally aren't just saying that to share an interesting fact about the rich tapestry of history. They're saying it to encourage everybody to throw up their hands and forget about trying to make anything right.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:50 PM on October 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
She described herself as a lifelong Democrat and feminist who went to college in the 1970s at the height of the sexual revolution and women’s liberation movements. Her husband and their two sons were “super respectful” of women, she said.
“We don’t really need to teach our sons not to rape,” she said.
Except obviously you do, Judith. You do have to.
posted by elsietheeel at 5:50 PM on October 22, 2017 [6 favorites]
“We don’t really need to teach our sons not to rape,” she said.
Except obviously you do, Judith. You do have to.
posted by elsietheeel at 5:50 PM on October 22, 2017 [6 favorites]
So, this might be a stupid question (and I readily admit that it reflects my sheltered ignorance on these topics):
If a student, who is a legal adult, has been raped on a college campus, and the school refuses to take substantive action, why can't the victim go to the police? Yes, I understand that many police departments will refer the victim back to the school administrators, but given that a crime has occurs involving two legal adults, and given that the police in these cases are refusing to record or investigate the allegations, wouldn't those police departments be exposed to liability for their inaction?
Again, I understand that there is already a chasm between the ideal and the reality of rape investigation generally, and I recognize that colleges often have cozy relationships with local police, but on what legal grounds can the police refuse to investigate the alleged commission of a serious crime? Surely, the police would become involved if someone was killed or grievously assaulted on a campus, right? Is there a clear statute or clear case law that supports what amounts to the decriminalization of a serious crime?
posted by belarius at 5:52 PM on October 22, 2017
If a student, who is a legal adult, has been raped on a college campus, and the school refuses to take substantive action, why can't the victim go to the police? Yes, I understand that many police departments will refer the victim back to the school administrators, but given that a crime has occurs involving two legal adults, and given that the police in these cases are refusing to record or investigate the allegations, wouldn't those police departments be exposed to liability for their inaction?
Again, I understand that there is already a chasm between the ideal and the reality of rape investigation generally, and I recognize that colleges often have cozy relationships with local police, but on what legal grounds can the police refuse to investigate the alleged commission of a serious crime? Surely, the police would become involved if someone was killed or grievously assaulted on a campus, right? Is there a clear statute or clear case law that supports what amounts to the decriminalization of a serious crime?
posted by belarius at 5:52 PM on October 22, 2017
however (unless I am misreading you) it seems that you aren't necessarily saying this should be pointed out.
Yes, you are definitely misreading me. I'll leave it here. We both dislike the NYT piece, which I feel is clear although maybe not? This has been a week, a month, a year of awful triggering and I fear I'm either not expressing myself well or not being read well, but either way nothing is gained by continuing down this path.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 5:56 PM on October 22, 2017
Yes, you are definitely misreading me. I'll leave it here. We both dislike the NYT piece, which I feel is clear although maybe not? This has been a week, a month, a year of awful triggering and I fear I'm either not expressing myself well or not being read well, but either way nothing is gained by continuing down this path.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 5:56 PM on October 22, 2017
She described herself as a lifelong Democrat and feminist who went to college in the 1970s at the height of the sexual revolution and women’s liberation movements. Her husband and their two sons were “super respectful” of women, she said.
this is so incredibly close, nearly word for word, to how an mra-sympathizing ex-mefite always described herself and her sons, that it is fucking chilling
posted by poffin boffin at 6:01 PM on October 22, 2017 [11 favorites]
this is so incredibly close, nearly word for word, to how an mra-sympathizing ex-mefite always described herself and her sons, that it is fucking chilling
posted by poffin boffin at 6:01 PM on October 22, 2017 [11 favorites]
She felt a flash of irritation.
“How many times have I told you, you need to keep it zippered,” she said she told him.
Yipes, how many times did you tell him that?
posted by queensissy at 6:07 PM on October 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
“How many times have I told you, you need to keep it zippered,” she said she told him.
Yipes, how many times did you tell him that?
posted by queensissy at 6:07 PM on October 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
wouldn't those police departments be exposed to liability for their inaction?
Liability from whom? for what? It is nearly impossible to hold police accountable for not pursuing an investigation that it turns out they should have pursued.
Bringing the police into this conversation is a red herring. Colleges have a duty to provide a safe learning environment for all of their students. Sexual assault is no different than alcohol infractions, drug infractions, fights, etc that colleges deal with perpendicularly to the legal system, save for the fact that a lot of Americans don't believe that rape exists.
posted by muddgirl at 6:08 PM on October 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
Liability from whom? for what? It is nearly impossible to hold police accountable for not pursuing an investigation that it turns out they should have pursued.
Bringing the police into this conversation is a red herring. Colleges have a duty to provide a safe learning environment for all of their students. Sexual assault is no different than alcohol infractions, drug infractions, fights, etc that colleges deal with perpendicularly to the legal system, save for the fact that a lot of Americans don't believe that rape exists.
posted by muddgirl at 6:08 PM on October 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
If my son raped someone, I would spend the rest of my life trying to figure out how I had failed as a parent. But I would also want him in jail so he didn't rape someone else. Because yes, he's my son and I would love him regardless, but the women he hurt? Were someone's children too. Were people, just as much as him.
posted by emjaybee at 6:11 PM on October 22, 2017
posted by emjaybee at 6:11 PM on October 22, 2017
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