Spoiler warning: Every film ever made
November 22, 2017 1:02 PM   Subscribe

CinemaSins is a very popular youtube channel whose motto is that "no movie is without sin. We exist mostly just to remind you of that." It is also a youtube channel that is wrong about everything. And I mean it.

Witness: CinemaSins is wrong about everything in Mad Max: Fury Road, they are wrong about everything in Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back. But more importantly, they are literally wrong about everything in general. No, I literally mean it. They're still total rubbish and wrong about everything.

(Editorial: This thread was inspired by a recent one where Shaun and Jen were mentioned positively a couple of times and since just yesterday I just laughed and laughed at these videos I made this post about them.)
posted by Pyrogenesis (97 comments total) 24 users marked this as a favorite
 
Is this the poor dumb bastards who took a swing at Skull Island?
posted by Artw at 1:13 PM on November 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


I'll admit the first time I saw one of these videos I chuckled a bit and snarked but this style of comedy/take-down got old very quickly and it also has a punching down feel to it that I imagine doesn't feel too good to the people that worked hard on these films. I unsubscribed from these a long while back.
posted by Fizz at 1:16 PM on November 22, 2017 [3 favorites]


I wish people could just enjoy cinema as an audiovisual medium without trying to reconcile the fucking lore of every film. But then I also wish we could get more films in that spirit, so who are you going to blame, really?
posted by selfnoise at 1:17 PM on November 22, 2017 [3 favorites]


Fizz, in fact "it also has a punching down feel to it that I imagine doesn't feel too good to the people that worked hard on these films" is one of the main threads throughout these videos. And then as a response Shaun serves them their own medicine.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 1:22 PM on November 22, 2017 [6 favorites]


I've bookmarked these to watch later. I'm glad someone is taking these apart and showing why they're bad for film and film criticism.
posted by Fizz at 1:25 PM on November 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


Answering my own question... 'Kong: Skull Island' Director Pinpoints the Problem With CinemaSins

"Punching down" is perhaps the wrong term, but there's definitely something off about them.
posted by Artw at 1:29 PM on November 22, 2017 [4 favorites]


Sometimes I fear for the future of snark when these cinema-sin type recaps go viral. This guy's ultra-dry delivery was way more fun to watch than it should have been.
posted by Think_Long at 1:33 PM on November 22, 2017


Oh my yes. I agree 100% that CinemaSins is horribly, terribly wrong about everything, and not just because their videos are inaccurate (although they are) - at core, their entire ethos is wrong. They exemplify a certain kind of cinebro who views movies primarily as technical artifacts, not art. We all know that kind of cinebro - the kind of asshole who thinks that a continuity error destroys an entire movie or that the longer a single-take shot is, the better (you will often find these movie-ruining macho brosephs rhapsodizing about Children of Men and that one long take in Goodfellas). I'm glad that the tide is turning against this bloodless, hypermasculine, catastrophically awful viewpoint on filmmaking.
posted by Frobenius Twist at 1:34 PM on November 22, 2017 [21 favorites]


Cinemasins is probably my biggest internet guilty pleasure. You all are totally right in terms of how bad and wrong it is, and yet I love it. I have probably watched all of the Cinema Sins for all of the movies they've done that I've seen, and a few I haven't. I don't know why I like it so much, but I find it utterly addictive.
posted by lunasol at 1:37 PM on November 22, 2017 [3 favorites]


I haven't gotten very far but I'm in love with the th-fronting in his accent
posted by aubilenon at 1:38 PM on November 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


CinemaSins like the real trailers gimmick but done by people who neither care about movies nor care to make sure that their criticism is accurate.

There's always been some of this "make fun of the movie" stuff around — Elvira did it. It can be done well and it can be done poorly. I think the early years of MST3K was especially superb, treating the weirdness of bad movies as an opportunity for creative engagement, and I always felt the later Mike years relied overmuch on simply mocking the movies.

But this makes that the exclusive aesthetic, and can't even be bothered to do that right. Listmaking is always a bit lazy, and I say that as someone who writes a lot of lists, but when I make lists I try to highlight stuff that is overlooked, not take down stuff that is already enormously popular.

Beyond that, shitting on somebody else's work is just a chump move. I'm glads there are these response videos to point out how lazy and shitty there are about it, and I find these droll responses about a million times funnier than the original CinemaSins videos.
posted by maxsparber at 1:39 PM on November 22, 2017 [12 favorites]


I really don't think that the Cinemasins people take themselves nearly as seriously as this thread seems to think. They're just having a little fun at the expense of some $100M entertainment vehicles.
posted by octothorpe at 1:42 PM on November 22, 2017 [10 favorites]


Bobvids has a great series where he points out the flaws in Cinemasins videos, both individually and one about the channel in general.

CS is terrible. It's not that they nitpick, but that they are just plain wrong or often don't get what the movies' plots are. Then they defend their mistakes by saying they're joking and the mistakes were intentional.

It used to be decent back when they made 3 minute videos, but it's obvious they're now trying to churn out these clickbait videos as frequently as possible and not doing even a single round of fact checking or proofing.
posted by AlSweigart at 1:42 PM on November 22, 2017 [9 favorites]


I used to like CinemaSins early on when they focused on bad movies, but over time they started aiming at whatever the big popular releases of the day are and I noticed they were straining themselves trying to find enough "sins" about what most people agree are good, enjoyable movies that yes, it gave them a "sort of punching down" feel that just rubbed me the wrong way.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 1:43 PM on November 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


ESB: If you watched the movie with your eyes, and registered the information with your brain...you'd know this.
posted by Chrysostom at 2:01 PM on November 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


> "I really don't think that the Cinemasins people take themselves nearly as seriously as this thread seems to think."

I don't really give a shit whether they take themselves seriously or not. My question is, are they funny and entertaining? And the answer is no, because they don't seem to either like or understand the medium they're critiquing.

Honest Trailers? Seems to genuinely like and understand movies while they point out their flaws. How It Should Have Ended? Seems to genuinely like and understand movies while they point out their flaws. Cinema Sins? Don't seem to care about movies at all, only about how they can make themselves feel smart even if they're completely wrong and not even making sense.
posted by kyrademon at 2:08 PM on November 22, 2017 [23 favorites]


  1. The authors don’t even pretend to be critics in the sense of the High Art of Film Criticism, or even newspaper film reviewers.
  2. I believe that "punching down" is the official replacement phrase for "taking cheap shots"? Because saying that a couple of Internet comedians are somehow in a stronger position than people who put out multi-million dollar films is a little weird. The authors do take a lot of cheap shots though.
  3. If they weren’t the subject of this week’s Five Minute Internet Hate, they would just be some moderately entertaining comedy videos.
  4. They’re fun. Remember fun?
    posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:12 PM on November 22, 2017 [6 favorites]


    (you will often find these movie-ruining macho brosephs rhapsodizing about Children of Men and that one long take in Goodfellas).

    Hey, I resent this characterization! I'm somebody you'll see rhapsodizing about Children of Men and I loathe that sort of "gotcha" analysis of art and poetry. I'm also not a tech obsessed bro who doesn't "get" art and poetry; I'm a published poet myself and have been actively engaged in and with all of the arts enthusastically all my life and only even took a job in programming because my skills as an editor helped make the transition easier and I needed a way to feed myself and my family. Step back with the lazy, resentful, socially divisive stereoptyping, please.
    posted by saulgoodman at 2:16 PM on November 22, 2017 [5 favorites]


    They’re fun.

    [citation needed]

    Also, Shaun covers most of these complaints about the complaining in his videos.
    posted by tobascodagama at 2:16 PM on November 22, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Yeah, I'm totally confused how anyone is interpreting CinemaSins as some vanguard of serious film analysis. It is a couple dudes who lucked out on a youtube format, built an audience, and have lazily been pushing out low effort content to fill their coffers. Why have they been singled out for such scrutiny? Are they The De Facto Brand of Critical Analysis? Do they personally own the eyeballs and minds of the unwitting, hapless audience?

    Let's keep digging down this rabbit hole; next up: a Top 10 Favorite People React to: People Reacting to Top 10 lists! It's a recursive nightmare.

    Marshall McLuhan must be spinning in his grave.
    posted by Christ, what an asshole at 2:17 PM on November 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Cinema Sins? Don't seem to care about movies at all, only about how they can make themselves feel smart even if they're completely wrong and not even making sense.

    Yeah, another common theme throughout the videos is that CinemaSins marks something as a sin, then realizes later on that it was not a sin but a plot point, and then they never go back to correct or remove the original sin.

    These long and deliberately pedantic videos are just excellent for showing what a lazy clickbait shit CinemaSins and channels of this type are.
    posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:19 PM on November 22, 2017 [6 favorites]


    Why have they been singled out for such scrutiny?

    7,302,339 subscribers. They're not just some kids in a back room. They are among the most viewed film critics on earth and in the history of earth, and they fucking suck at it.
    posted by maxsparber at 2:22 PM on November 22, 2017 [51 favorites]


    Also, Shaun covers most of these complaints about the complaining in his videos.

    Sorry to threadsit a bit but yeah, Tell Me No Lies, these videos literally, and deliberately, address every single one of your ordinary commonplace kneejerk reactions that everybody else has had too. You could even say that... if you actually watched them... you'd realize that! Amazing how that works.
    posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:22 PM on November 22, 2017 [10 favorites]


    The "Y'know, Generally" video is the one that addresses all the criticisms people have directed at Shaun for going after CinemaSins. If you're just really short on time, just skip to about 4 mintues in and watch for a minute or two from there.
    posted by tobascodagama at 2:25 PM on November 22, 2017 [3 favorites]


    I was glad to see this as these videos keep turning up in my YouTube feed,* and they are, as far as I can tell, little more than lazy, mean-spirited people who've found a way to turn that into an income stream. If you found yourself talking to them at a party (or, more to the point, being talked at by them at great length) you could at least look over their shoulder and pretend to have seen someone you really need to speak to, or excuse yourself as you need to go to the loo, or just scream "Shut up shut up shut up!" in their face until it doesn't hurt quite as much. I can look for the remote and make the video stop, but not before they've made my world that little bit worse. I mean, there are all sorts of things I could do, but I've chosen to complain pointlessly. That is what the modern internet is for.

    Anyway, it was nice to see this gentleman being rude about them, that's all. Does he say interesting things about things he likes that aren't video games? Because I'm actually not that interested in video games and he seems quite nice.

    On the other hand I'm the Cinema Sins crew are amassing a phenomenal number of negative Good Place points.

    *Probably because I watch Red Letter Media videos. I expect there's a conversation to be had about telling the two video sources apart, but I really can't be bothered. I tend to skip over the RLM "comedy" bits.
    posted by Grangousier at 2:28 PM on November 22, 2017 [4 favorites]


    So in conclusion... Skull Island, fucking amazing, see it today.
    posted by Artw at 2:31 PM on November 22, 2017 [4 favorites]


    (I swear this is the last time but), tobascodagama, I mixed up the two videos in that the "Y'Know, Generally" was supposed to be the original one above the fold for people to watch first, but I messed up and then thought nothing of it or to ask the mods. That's what I wanted for people to see as the first thing actually.
    posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:31 PM on November 22, 2017


    Sorry for the prickly derail earlier; more on topic: the Mad Max Fury Road review was the only one I watched because I don't need to feel any more exasperated. The Cinesins review was a great example of the sort of context-insensitive thinking that characterizes some forms of mental illness (some of which I'm personally acquainted with). If I thought there was any serious effort to engage with the content in the review, I'd almost call it conspiracy theory thinking, but as it is, I think the Cinesin reviews are just bullshit. They're just going through as quickly and superficially as possible and pointing out things that might seem like real problems if you've only half been paying attention. Besides, agreeing with whoever accidentally tarred me by association as a tech bro: technical errors are a dumb thing to get spun up about.
    posted by saulgoodman at 2:36 PM on November 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


    The authors don’t even pretend to be critics in the sense of the High Art of Film Criticism, or even newspaper film reviewers.

    There's a difference between not being a professional and not giving a shit.
    posted by PMdixon at 2:41 PM on November 22, 2017 [11 favorites]


    I saw in one of the screenshots of the CinemaSins channel page they had a video for Troll 2.

    Nitpicking away at what movies like Troll 2 get wrong is missing the point by SO MUCH and just sucking the fun out of bad movies like some awful fun vampire.
    posted by jason_steakums at 2:42 PM on November 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I've watched a couple of CinemaSins videos and I think he explains well what puts me off: They're not just riffing; they're dishonest, and when they're not dishonest, they're often stupid.

    Sometimes this takes the form of them "not noticing" things that are obvious, such as the train being a metaphor, or the existence of the the entire cyberpunk genre. I'd find it a lot more amusing if it seemed like this was part of the joke, but it doesn't--it just comes across as simple ignorance combined with a desperate need to find something to be negative about. It's nastiness without the redeeming feature of insightfulness.

    But then there's also the intentional lying? I'm not the most attentive moviegoer and I don't tend to rewatch my favorite movies over and over, so I didn't notice just how much they straight up lie about what's in the movies. I mean, I don't know what the ethics of lying about movies so you can make popular videos trashing them really are, but I do know it makes it less fun for me personally.

    I think I agree with this guy. If you just watch them because they're funny, that's fine, it's not my cuppa but you do you. There are however a lot of people who think it's "legitimate criticism"--that these are actually mistakes that the movie made. That makes it worthwhile to talk about why they're not legitimate criticism, and how much they get wrong.

    Like, I don't get why "they don't take themselves seriously" is a response to this kind of statement. I think we all kind of agree on that? Obvs, they're out to make $$$ and maybe have some fun, rather than do "legitimate criticism." As far as I can tell (only two videos in) the complaint isn't that they take themselves too seriously; it's that their videos suck.
    posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:43 PM on November 22, 2017 [15 favorites]


    Also, I just got to the part where he discusses their video on Moana and yeah, it's bad. "Nastiness without the redeeming feature of insightfulness" really bites them in the butt there.
    posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:47 PM on November 22, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Recently I watched Sucker Punch, which was not a great movie. Afterward, while searching for reviews to help me contextualize the 90 minutes I’d just wasted, I found the CinemaSins video about Sucker Punch. I watched it, figuring it would be a fun cavalcade of well-deserved snark.

    I had to turn it off within three minutes, because the CinemaSins guys seemed too dumb to follow what was going on in the movie. They didn’t realize who the characters were and couldn’t figure out what was actually happening on screen. They were too dumb to critique Sucker Punch! Sucker Punch!!
    posted by ejs at 2:54 PM on November 22, 2017 [28 favorites]


    Ooh, I can just eat these videos up.

    I really hate snark for snark's sake. But using snark to tear apart someone else's bad snark? Goes down real well for me.
    posted by meese at 2:55 PM on November 22, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Related
    posted by Artw at 2:56 PM on November 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


    7,302,339 subscribers. They're not just some kids in a back room. They are among the most viewed film critics on earth and in the history of earth, and they fucking suck at it.

    This is building a strawman. You are labeling them film critics and then saying they suck at it. Where do they call themselves serious critics?

    This is their About page:
    No movie is without sin. We exist mostly just to remind you of that.
    New sins videos every Tuesday & Thursday.
    Their videos are a numbered list of cursory nitpicks and attempts at humor. I've watched their videos, and it comes off more like an attempt at MST3K than Siskel & Ebert. It's a listicle, not an essay followed by a score.

    The "Y'know, Generally yt " video is the one that addresses all the criticisms people have directed at Shaun for going after CinemaSins. If you're just really short on time, just skip to about 4 mintues in and watch for a minute or two from there.

    I went and watched that video. The criticism amounts to: some people take their comments at face value and make judgments about the film, and since sometimes they're factually incorrect...BURN THE WITCH! It's a lazy excuse for having contempt for the general YT audience that they can't develop their own filters.
    posted by Christ, what an asshole at 3:02 PM on November 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


    It would be ironic if they a turned out to be the only popular YouTubers that *aren't* nazis.

    Probably pretty unlikely though.
    posted by Artw at 3:09 PM on November 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


    (I am pretty okay with having contempt for the YT audience and assuming they don't have filters, FWIW)
    posted by Artw at 3:10 PM on November 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


    So what you're saying is that out of the two options, one being lying about the movies and their motives, and the other being pointing about the lying and for its motives, the bad part was those who pointed out the lying?

    posted by Christ, what an asshole at 1:02 on November 23 [+] [!]
    posted by Pyrogenesis at 3:11 PM on November 22, 2017 [16 favorites]


    This is building a strawman. You are labeling them film critics and then saying they suck at it. Where do they call themselves serious critics?

    They suck at being fake critics. They suck at everything.
    posted by maxsparber at 3:13 PM on November 22, 2017 [25 favorites]


    Everything about CinemaSins clicked into place for me when I learned from the latest of the bobvids series that AlSweigart linked to that the CinemaSins folks were previously in video SEO (the SEO/clickbait stuff starts at 18:35). They're not movie fans or comedians who found an audience, they're marketers who found a successful formula and are going to crank it until it stops getting hits. It's like if a producer of those listicles about Game of Thrones you see in "around the web" ads somehow gained an audience of millions and a smaller core of fans eager to shout down criticism. With that in mind, the question of whether the channel is intended as comedy or criticism (and how good it is at either of those things) is suddenly irrelevant. The answer is that it's neither comedy nor criticism, it's just content, in the most 2017 sense of the word. Intent and meaning don't matter, the only important thing is that you watch long enough to register as a view on their analytics.
    posted by skymt at 3:14 PM on November 22, 2017 [41 favorites]


    I 100% second the recommendation of the bobvid videos.
    posted by meese at 3:18 PM on November 22, 2017


    I've always put CinemaSins on about the same level as Rocky Horror callback lines, so I've never seen the problem with them taking liberties to try to make a joke. Yes, the schtick gets old fast, and the attempt at humor often falls flat when they have to act ignorant to try to make that humor work.

    That being said, I would seriously watch and deeply enjoy every minute of Shaun doing a video about RHPS callback lines.
    posted by Avelwood at 3:29 PM on November 22, 2017


    I want more videos like this: thoughtful takedowns of toxic gotcha-I’m-smarter-than-you snark that the Internet is obsessed with. Take down the fake news, whether it be movie reviews or that particular sort of smug internet atheism or explinations about how Jews run the world.

    The same breathless hot take delivery, information coming at you so fast there isn’t time to think critically, and it’s just bullshit from a firehose.
    posted by Grandysaur at 3:31 PM on November 22, 2017 [11 favorites]


    They exemplify a certain kind of cinebro who views movies primarily as technical artifacts, not art. We all know that kind of cinebro - the kind of asshole who thinks that a continuity error destroys an entire movie or that the longer a single-take shot is, the better (you will often find these movie-ruining macho brosephs rhapsodizing about Children of Men and that one long take in Goodfellas). I'm glad that the tide is turning against this bloodless, hypermasculine, catastrophically awful viewpoint on filmmaking.

    You just described a former friend who aspired to be a filmmaker (and who roped more than a few of his friends into devoting time and money to his effort to create a feature length independent film shot on 16mm and blown up to 35mm at the same time that film usage was falling off and digital video was starting to boom)... his dream project was to make a movie version of a very popular video game about nuclear war because he had this "amazing" idea for a single-take tracking shot that had multiple 360 degree rotations and was set to an AC/DC song. The song was crucial; without getting the rights to the song, he insisted, the whole scene would fall apart. But, like, every single idea he ever came up with had a ridiculously long single-take shot. It took me SO LONG to realize that single-take shots were basically his artistic security blanket.
    posted by palomar at 3:32 PM on November 22, 2017 [7 favorites]


    I'm brand new to all of this but I think there's some uncanny valley stuff where for some of us, our brains warp at the dissonance, and for others...something else? I submit for placement in this genre, Trumpybear. Yes or no?
    posted by amanda at 3:32 PM on November 22, 2017


    I tried to watch the Aliens one and it was pretty shit. Not linking, cuz screw these guys.
    posted by glonous keming at 4:44 PM on November 22, 2017


    Yeah I have watched a few of these in the past (drunk), and most of them were really grasping or, as people note, just plain wrong. Utterly obnoxious. The only good film channel is Bad Lip Reading.
    posted by turbid dahlia at 4:57 PM on November 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


    So what you're saying is that out of the two options, one being lying about the movies and their motives, and the other being pointing about the lying and for its motives, the bad part was those who pointed out the lying?

    No. The videos CinemaSins pumps out are pretty garbage. That I can agree on. Where I take issue is mischaracterizing an attempt at entertainment for The Grand Arbiter of Critical Analysis. I don't take issue with the video; I take issue with the GRAVITY of the assessment.

    The point has been made that: even if it's not your intent, because an x number of morons take their cues from your bullshit, you've unwittingly accepted that larger responsibility. In that case, let's nuke Larry The Cable Guy from orbit because -- gasp! -- he's not real. He conned a subset of his audience, and damn well he better pay for it!

    They suck at being fake critics. They suck at everything.

    Except that sweet SEO cash. But I guess some forms of marketing are more tolerated, if not outright revered. It's easy enough to switch the goalposts from one of values to aesthetics, but everyone deserves a fair shake, even if they're absolute bottom-feeders that we disagree with.
    posted by Christ, what an asshole at 4:58 PM on November 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


    I tried watching the CinemaSins "takedown" of Get Out, but 43 seconds into it I was already annoyed at their critique of the main character's apartment decor as basic hipster. They complain about the "patent leather furniture", of which there is none in the apartment... and then just a minute later, these jags are complaining about Rose not wanting the cop to see Chris's ID or take down his information, seemingly not realizing that Rose doesn't want any alarm bells raised later when someone reports Chris missing from this general area. Then they go on to remove a sin for Jordan Peele's excellent directorial work with the foreshadowing of the "we keep a little piece of my mother in the kitchen" line, AND THEN THEY IMMEDIATELY REVERSE THEIR POSITION ON THAT because there wasn't enough ham-handed explanation of the line in the rest of that scene. Then they give the movie another sin, for having the characters of Georgina and Walter even present in the movie at all.

    I mean... y'all, this is trash. These videos are trash. These people have trash opinions. TRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASH.
    posted by palomar at 5:02 PM on November 22, 2017 [10 favorites]


    After falling into film analysis by Rob Ager years ago, I can't even imagine taking a look at something like CinemaSins as anything other than total garbage for cretins who can't pay attention to the movies they're actually watching but somehow think they're the next Crow T. Robot.

    I meant to bring him up in a thread about The Thing recently, but it doesn't look like his comprehensive analysis is available, just a handful of short analyses.

    Also, while also currently unavailable, his analysis on the Big Lebowski with focus on its feminist message and elements, is one of the best film analyses I've ever come across.

    Full disclosure, any other videos made by Rob Ager really push a weird conspiracy theory/Illuminati weirdness, and I just personally ignore that nonsense because he's got some pretty amazing videos and essays on film. (Found part of it on DailyMotion, but Ager is pretty protective of his copyright, and doesn't post all his material online. Sad.)

    So yeah, in short, I had no idea what CinemaSins was before now, but after watching a handful of these CS takedown videos, it's pretty apparent they (CinemaSins) are utter garbage, and I would have noticed the same issues had I watched them originally, without someone else walking me through it, because we both love similar films.

    It certainly looks more like an attempt at marketing than anything else, and it fucking kills me to death that it seems to be successful.
    posted by deadaluspark at 5:04 PM on November 22, 2017 [3 favorites]


    Seriously, how can anyone defend these guys when they can't even display a basic understanding of the plots of the movies they're critiquing for money? No one here is setting the bar super high and looking for high academic value in these videos. Just, you know, basic honesty.
    posted by palomar at 5:06 PM on November 22, 2017 [11 favorites]


    Those of you who have bad and wrong movie opinions, I forgive you slightly for at least not being these guys.
    posted by Artw at 5:11 PM on November 22, 2017 [8 favorites]


    (Obviously there is nothing to forgive if you've kept your wrong opinions to yourself, but this is Metafilter so that is not possible.)
    posted by Artw at 5:12 PM on November 22, 2017 [3 favorites]


    43 seconds into it I was already annoyed at their critique of the main character's apartment decor as basic hipster

    Ah, yes, the old "main character is a hipster" cliche... ex machina.
    posted by tobascodagama at 5:18 PM on November 22, 2017 [8 favorites]


    Probably because I watch Red Letter Media videos

    KILL THE HERETIC
    posted by benzenedream at 5:29 PM on November 22, 2017


    CinemaSins is awful. I cannot understand its popularity—and I watch way too much YouTube, some of which is admittedly utter shit.
    posted by defenestration at 5:40 PM on November 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


    Straight up, in any CinemaSins video I've seen, I've literally never heard one interesting, clever, or funny thought. Not a single one. And I'm subscribed to stuff like YourMovieSucks, so it's not like I have an aversion to people shitting on movies. I just don't see a point of view or any observations worth sharing coming from CS.
    posted by defenestration at 5:56 PM on November 22, 2017 [3 favorites]


    everyone deserves a fair shake

    So give them one. Mount a defense instead of behaving like how dare anyone take issue.
    posted by maxsparber at 6:54 PM on November 22, 2017 [9 favorites]


    I had heard the name but never troubled to look at any of their videos until today. They manage to pack a lot of tedium into a few seconds.
    posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:58 PM on November 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


    I just never really saw CinemaSins as real film criticism. I just find the style and narrator amusing and I will continue watching them as long as they continue amusing me.

    That's what they are to me: entertaining.
    posted by Samizdata at 7:39 PM on November 22, 2017 [3 favorites]


    They're not real critics. They admit they're not really critics and that their videos are mostly BS.
    The point isn't actually for you to watch and find out why movies are bad, it's just a recap of entertaining scenes with funny commentary. When I don't have the time or attention span to rewatch a movie I like, I sometimes watch the Cinema Sins recap.

    They even have a video addressing how full of shit they are Everything Wrong With Cinema Sins In 3 Minutes Or Less.

    I like this guy's videos too. It's all just a bit of fun.
    posted by yonega at 8:49 PM on November 22, 2017 [3 favorites]


    It's not just like they're just being inaccurate or sloppy; they're actually editing the films they're criticising to make them fit the criticisms they're putting forth.

    They're constructing strawmen to tear down and pretending to their viewers that their strawmen are the real thing.

    That's some dishonest bullshit.
    posted by Panthalassa at 9:51 PM on November 22, 2017 [8 favorites]


    It's not just like they're just being inaccurate or sloppy; they're actually editing the films they're criticising to make them fit the criticisms they're putting forth.

    They're constructing strawmen to tear down and pretending to their viewers that their strawmen are the real thing.

    That's some dishonest bullshit.


    Once again, maybe don't approach EVERYTHING so broadmindedly. I never took them seriously from the first one I saw. Part of satire is pretending you are being serious about the topic. Unless that statement just lost me The Game...
    posted by Samizdata at 9:55 PM on November 22, 2017


    I would reply to your 'satire' defence if it hadn't already been eviscerated in, like, one of the videos in the post. The post—you know, that thing you're commenting on right now? The thing we generally expect you to have consumed before you jump into the discussion?
    posted by Panthalassa at 9:59 PM on November 22, 2017 [11 favorites]




    I'm just happy about all the people I can feel superior to. Cinemasins. Cinemasins audience. This guy. You all. Realizing the irony of this, I'm also pretty happy about my capacity for introspection and awareness of my own flaws. So ok, Cinemasins is less clever than these movies, but that particular type of cleverness has very little to do with the ongoing dialogue these movies are a part of. If you want to engage with society by being clever, society will ignore you. It is going on with a dialogue in a completely different way that cleverness is irrelevant to, in a way that defies logic because logical statements are subject to censorship so we've needed to come up this weird semi-conscious space in which to mull things over.

    These arguments aren't meant to make sense, they're a defensive layer of hahayeah with the same texture as the thing they are protecting against.
    posted by pfh at 10:48 PM on November 22, 2017


    John 8:7 - let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone

    Pure as the driven snow.
    posted by fairmettle at 11:44 PM on November 22, 2017


    CinemaSins sucks bad, but then again most of film crit/comment/whatever sucks bad, especially on youtube. But then most films suck bad now too. And get off my lawn. (But god it is depressing that people are making money from this utter garbage)

    But this guy does a good and entertaining job pointing out just how bad they are.

    Also I had a nose around his other vidz and I see he's fighting the good fight by being equally scathing against the Anti-Feminist Nazi contingent as well.
    posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:13 AM on November 23, 2017 [2 favorites]


    CinemaSins is a lot of things.


    Funny is not one of those things.
    posted by Pendragon at 3:17 AM on November 23, 2017 [7 favorites]


    Oof. I hate Cinema Sins and all those other nitpicky, negative YouTube "film criticism" channels. It runs so counter to the way I enjoy and appreciate movies.
    posted by brundlefly at 6:02 AM on November 23, 2017 [1 favorite]


    They're supposed to be funny? Dear god, the humor bar is disappointingly low if this is what passes for funny.
    posted by palomar at 6:24 AM on November 23, 2017 [7 favorites]


    It bugs me that some people seem to think just valuing being honest and making good faith claims is now seen as an attempt to express "superiority." That idea is incredibly poisonous and gross. Being in touch with reality and valuing that is not about social dominance and having a superiority complex. It's valuing things that any society needs to value to function and get along and muddle through; investing ego in how people aprehend factual reality and denying that there is any reality beyond opinion and the surfaces of words and accusing others of only wanting to feel and express their superiority in trying and caring about being right is the same road to insanity that brought us Manson's insane ideas about "Helter Skelter."
    posted by saulgoodman at 7:41 AM on November 23, 2017 [12 favorites]


    I mean, obviously these guys aren't *that*, but the idea whatever they say or claim is valuable and above criticism because "hey, it's just a joke!" is madness. It's frustrating because the more time my son spends online watching crap like this now that he's getting older, the more I have to push back against him saying and doing things that aren't really acceptable or appropriate behavior but thinking it's all good because "Ha! Ha! Just kidding! ... Or am I?"
    posted by saulgoodman at 7:46 AM on November 23, 2017 [4 favorites]


    I saw someone recently call CinemaSins the Friedberg and Seltzer of film critique and that seems about right? Like, I acknowledge it's supposed to be comedy but it's so hollow if you think about it beyond the level of, "Hah, that sure is a thing that happened in the movie!"
    posted by RobotHero at 7:58 AM on November 23, 2017 [1 favorite]


    CinemaSins is a lot of things.

    That seems pretty generous
    posted by aubilenon at 8:03 AM on November 23, 2017 [7 favorites]


    CinemaSins is one thing, over and over, until the designated number of minutes are filled.
    posted by RobotHero at 8:12 AM on November 23, 2017 [4 favorites]


    Yeah, I'm totally confused how anyone is interpreting CinemaSins as some vanguard of serious film analysis. It is a couple dudes who lucked out on a youtube format, built an audience, and have lazily been pushing out low effort content to fill their coffers. Why have they been singled out for such scrutiny? Are they The De Facto Brand of Critical Analysis? Do they personally own the eyeballs and minds of the unwitting, hapless audience?

    Yes, actually, as bobvids points out. Remember, these are not two random dudes, they got their start as SEO consultants who then decided to get into the content game. They design their videos to work with YouTube's algorithms, which is why they get promoted so heavily. This, in turn, makes them a first point of exposure to criticism for many people, who get shunted to them by YT. Which is why they get highlighted.
    posted by NoxAeternum at 8:18 AM on November 23, 2017 [4 favorites]


    WAIT, WHAT'S A STRAWMAN AGAIN?

    Are you asking for a refresher? It sounds like you might need one. Like, the videos we're discussing even quote them saying that they make stuff up--it's not being ignored. We all know that they're not serious critics, except for, of course, the people who don't that are also discussed in the videos.

    It just doesn't make their "content" better or really, do anything but support the complaints about their "content." It's bizarre to me that these two SEO guys admitting that they make shit up in order to fill up their videos makes that... not matter when you evaluate the quality of their videos.

    It's not like they're writing a movie version of The Onion. We're not mistaking satire for the truth because there's no satire. They're not making jokes about the movies; the only "joke" is that they have a list of petty complaints about movies, which are all presented as completely legitimate in the videos themselves. I mean, there's not anything particularly funny about complaining that Major Kusanagi is a cyborg and should sink in the water and completely ignoring the conversation about her flotation devices. That's not a joke, either at the expense of the movie or movie reviewers. That's just making shit up to fill a new video in your money-making format.

    That they say "yeah, we make stuff up" later ... doesn't make it a joke?
    posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:38 AM on November 23, 2017 [9 favorites]


    If a joke you're trying to make about a given text doesn't work unless you actively edit the text.

    It's not a funny joke.

    I'm not sure it's even a joke.
    posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 8:54 AM on November 23, 2017 [4 favorites]


    That they say "yeah, we make stuff up" later ... doesn't make it a joke?

    The bobvids video goes into detail as to why this argument doesn't work (and that's a good reason why to watch it), but the short version is that when they make the same sorts of arguments in what they call "real" criticism, then no, they don't get to hide behind satire.
    posted by NoxAeternum at 9:00 AM on November 23, 2017 [2 favorites]


    My recollection when I did watch a couple of those videos is I did feel kind of empty afterwards. I don't remember thinking they had said anything factually incorrect, but more like they'd said nothing of meaning at all.

    If they're misrepresenting the movie they're making fun of, I don't think I'd shout "logical fallacy!" at them or anything. But it would compound the meaninglessness of it, if they're essentially making fun of a movie that doesn't exist.
    posted by RobotHero at 9:22 AM on November 23, 2017 [5 favorites]


    I don't remember thinking they had said anything factually incorrect, but more like they'd said nothing of meaning at all.

    This, coupled with how popular they are and how much money they're making from saying "nothing of meaning at all", is what's really depressing.
    posted by deadaluspark at 10:46 AM on November 23, 2017


    There's also a thing that has more and more of an effect on me as time passes, which is that negative opinions carry more weight than positive opinions, even if the negative opinions are wholly specious and detached from reality, as with Cinema Sins. To declare something stupid or worthless or bad gives you power over that thing in some way. In the same way, if you look at a review in the Guardian or wherever, you'll often find the first comment underneath is simply "It's shit". To express negativity is enough.

    In these straitened times, I'm turning more to cinema and television as an escape, and if the film or show diverts me for the length of its running time, that's good enough, frankly, and I don't need my buzz to be harshed by sneering halfwits.

    The other problem, born out of this, is that the critical sphere in which we are increasingly moving is based on reading texts - watching films and television and so forth - with the express intention of looking for things to call out and criticise. And humans being the way they are, if they go looking for something, they find it. We're pattern recognition machines.

    Yes, this means I've recognised that I need to put brakes on my own negativity and yes, that's not wholly successful.

    Oh, and I particularly enjoyed, in the BobVids ... uh ... vid the footage at the end of the Sinful Jeremy sitting in his car giving forth with a rant that would just as easily apply to his output as his chosen target (which I agree with him about but for a different reason - though I wonder whether LIVE ACTION WINNIE THE POOH FOR FUCK'S SAKE will actually get made when they see what a colossal and humiliating disaster the CGI Peter Rabbit turns out to be).
    posted by Grangousier at 10:49 AM on November 23, 2017 [4 favorites]


    So consider me a convert...

    On my first viewing of these take-downs, all I saw was petty envy... "Your Sin counter isn't scrolling accurately. STRIKE 1! The bell *ding* isn't consistent. STRIKE 2! You made a typo here. STRIKE 3! Your "joke" sucks. STRIKE 4! etc." Like a dumb, trivial "gotcha" game, giving an air of seriousness to a couple dudes yucking it up. Also, there's something pretty cringy about devoting an entire youtube channel to deconstructing another channel, merely because it's popular. It reminds me of the "YT drama" channels that exist to shit on other, more successful people.

    I guess where I changed was after watching the dismantling of CS's video on The Cabin in the Woods, a movie I enjoy and have watched several times. It really did point out some egregious errors, to the point of being a disingenuous reading of the film. Then bobsvids goes on to use actual knowledge of cinema history and tropes, and sharply illuminates the vapidity of the CinemaSins video. (They also really perv it up with slo-mo scenes and "this female character isn't giving a lapdance" groans.) That, coupled with their SEO background, does paint a pretty alarming picture.

    Because for as much agency and savvy that I possess as a veteran of internet culture, the same can't be said about younger, impressionable kids just entering this realm. And these CinemaSins videos are almost marketed toward that demographic. This gives the creators a lot more power than I'm comfortable with. Don't need kids taking their cues from unfunny, market-manipulating, misogynist assholes. So, my apologies to some in this thread in that it took me awhile to come around that this is more important than I gave it credit for.
    posted by Christ, what an asshole at 12:06 PM on November 23, 2017 [15 favorites]


    And like, from a SEO viewpoint, I expect a lot of the sloppiness might be deliberate. People posting in your comments about how you got something wrong counts as user engagement, right.
    posted by RobotHero at 1:08 PM on November 23, 2017 [8 favorites]


    What can I say? I largely agree with the individual points in Shaun's video but at the same time I mostly enjoy CinemaSins. Sure it's lazy and shoddy, and not infrequently wrong about basic facts. But I'm not watching it for serious film scholarship. If Jeremy Scott is laying out 153, 198, or 279 "sins" for a single movie, that's far too many for any of the individual sins to engender serious reflection, or even be remembered. It's frothy entertainment, just another lowbrow way for me as a lowbrow fan to engage with a lowbrow film that I've already seen. I've watched probably dozens of their videos but I can't recall even once going, "ya know, that really changed my opinion of a movie that I previously thought was good." I might in the moment utter to myself, "hey good point I guess" but shortly thereafter click on video of a kitten batting on a big ol dog and all is forgotten. Maybe it would be different if they were taking apart low-budget art films, but they're just winkingly riding the coattails of critic-proof blockbusters, is how I see it.

    If were ever in the position of releasing a major motion picture I would probably lowkey want these guys riffing off it on the principle that no publicity is bad, and maybe there's a certain cachet with the YouTube demographic.
    posted by xigxag at 7:55 PM on November 23, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I've watched one or two CinemaSins vids and been mildly amused, but I'm convinced.

    The CS Fury Road vid is utter garbage, and this guy does an excellent job debunking it.
    posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:30 PM on November 23, 2017


    High five, Christ, what an asshole!

    The Cabin in the Woods video is pretty damn good, innit?
    posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:05 AM on November 24, 2017


    Shaun kinda does a 'sins' thing for Game Of Thrones (well, more like 'sin' singular)... and oh boy is it deadly
    posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:38 AM on November 24, 2017 [4 favorites]


    I watched his takedown of the frankly racist The Truth About The Native American Genocide, which is the Indian version of Holocaust denial (and uses many identical tactics). The original video has been seen 342,266 times, which is an awful lot of people to watch a video that argues there was n genocide against the indigenous population of the United States, and Shaun quickly and effectively dismantles the original video's arguments in the same evenly paced, drolly comic style.

    I'm now convinced he is doing God's work.
    posted by maxsparber at 7:36 AM on November 24, 2017 [12 favorites]


    "Your Sin counter isn't scrolling accurately. STRIKE 1! The bell *ding* isn't consistent. STRIKE 2! You made a typo here. STRIKE 3! Your "joke" sucks. STRIKE 4! etc." Like a dumb, trivial "gotcha" game

    sins ARE a dumb, trivial "gotcha" game. the point of that section was they were Sinsing Sins. hence why they kept saying these were trivial points and that highlighting them was a strange thing to do?
    posted by reprise the theme song and roll the credits at 9:07 AM on November 24, 2017 [1 favorite]


    I'm now convinced he is doing God's work.

    Having now watched quite a few of Shaun's videos debunking/taking down more vile things than CinemaSins, I agree wholeheartedly, maxsparber. This guy is doing a service, and I'm quite thankful for it.
    posted by defenestration at 12:26 PM on November 24, 2017 [4 favorites]


    sins ARE a dumb, trivial "gotcha" game. the point of that section was they were Sinsing Sins. hence why they kept saying these were trivial points and that highlighting them was a strange thing to do?

    I guess a little chronology is in order, here. My first exposure to this phenomenon was Bobvids's Sustaining Stupidity: Why CinemaSins is Terrible. And while I ultimately came to agree with his thesis, some of the author's points were so distractingly petty that I initially wrote him off.

    example 1: Lame joke with obvious premise for the lulz. Retort? Any moron with eyeballs can recognize the obvious building from 90 minutes ago *zooms in to rubbled landscape*
    example 2: Interview where they talk about riffing on Save the Last Dance where one of their jokes spoiled a plot point for their companions, and then chuckling about the sentiment "I hate people lol." Conclusion? CinemaSins are people of low character and clearly have contempt for everyone.
    example 3: CinemaSins times their video releases with relevant trends. Proceeds to recommend other channels who also release relevant videos around release dates.

    (Again, I came to ultimately agree with his thesis, but the essay and its tone could have used a lot of polishing and editing.)

    So then I came to Mefi and saw this FPP. And I don't blame the OP, but the leading link was essentially the conclusion to a 4-part series. So when I started the video, devoid of that context, it just came across as another turd on the Internet Hate du Jour pile-on.

    But with enough resistance in this thread, I figured there had to be something I was missing. So I went back and watched Shaun's videos from the start, and the full narrative tone finally clicked.

    Having now watched quite a few of Shaun's videos debunking/taking down more vile things than CinemaSins, I agree wholeheartedly, maxsparber. This guy is doing a service, and I'm quite thankful for it.

    This a thousand times. Thoroughly impressed with his output (and humor), and easily among my new favorite discoveries.
    posted by Christ, what an asshole at 1:57 PM on November 24, 2017 [4 favorites]


    I've been going back through his channel and his Talking About: Racial Comparisons video is so good. I love how he takes the time to dig in deep on these kinds of easy, lazy internet comments that the pepe crowd throws out all the time.
    posted by jason_steakums at 9:59 PM on November 30, 2017 [1 favorite]


    Likewise I have been working my way through his vidoes... I like his judo moves where he uses the alt-righters quotes against them, especially going back to the original sources that they have cherry-picked quotes from, totally removing the context - often the overall intention of the sources end up being the opposite of what the alt-righters are trying to say.
    posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:03 AM on December 1, 2017 [2 favorites]


    I like this quote from the talking about: Racial comparisons video.

    "Even if he's right, and he might even be right
    Shut up!
    Shut up, Richard Dawkins!
    Being right isn't an excuse for being a prick"

    That's a pretty decent manifesto statement, to be honest.
    posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:44 AM on December 1, 2017 [3 favorites]


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