Wolverman? Spiderine?
November 29, 2017 9:37 PM Subscribe
These are not your friendly neighborhood spiders: scientists have mixed a graphene solution that when fed to spiders allows them to spin super-strong webbing. How strong? Strong enough to carry the weight of a person. And these spiders might soon be enlisted to help manufacture enhanced ropes and cables, possibly even parachutes for skydivers, according to the Sydney Morning Herald.
If you think that creating super-spiders might be going too far, this research is only the beginning. Pugno and her team are preparing to see what other animals and plants might be enhanced if they are fed graphene. Might it get incorporated into animals' skin, exoskeletons, or bones?Published in 2D Materials.
More than once I've walked into a web woven by (what I think is an) orb spider and practically bounced back. So now, this being Australia, they're going to produce webs that can literally slice me apart.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:54 PM on November 29, 2017 [23 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:54 PM on November 29, 2017 [23 favorites]
Impressive, but its still not transparent aluminum
posted by Fupped Duck at 9:57 PM on November 29, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Fupped Duck at 9:57 PM on November 29, 2017 [5 favorites]
What could possibly go wrong.
posted by Termite at 10:03 PM on November 29, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by Termite at 10:03 PM on November 29, 2017 [15 favorites]
"...the research does raise questions about what kinds of effects graphene or carbon nanotubes might have when released in abundance into natural systems."
Yes, what could possibly go wrong?
posted by pmburns222 at 10:04 PM on November 29, 2017 [14 favorites]
Yes, what could possibly go wrong?
posted by pmburns222 at 10:04 PM on November 29, 2017 [14 favorites]
Havn't these scientists watched Spider-Man? These things can get out of a lab! And then all hell breaks loose...
posted by Jubey at 10:19 PM on November 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Jubey at 10:19 PM on November 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
Preprint available on ArXiv, if you can't access the paper. It's not the revised version, so it differs slightly, but you can get the gist.
Most of the hazards associated with carbon nanotubes (CNTs) are generally related to inhalation and asbestos-like behavior in the lungs (i.e. mesothelioma). I don't think other effects are well-understood at this time, particularly as relates to the environment. CNTs and graphene have been subjects of a lot of hype that they haven't lived up to; ultra-high conductivity, incredible strength, etc. While individual nanotubes may exhibit extremely high electrical conductivity and strength, they are at most a few nanometers to a few tens of microns long, and so such strength is limited to those distance scales. They fail pretty badly when used in bulk, because the intermolecular forces are weak, and tube-to-tube electrical resistance is high. Nanocomp has been making yarns and tapes out of CNTs for a while, but they haven't managed to come near to the performance of metals.
All this to say: individually nanotubes and graphene have very exciting properties, but in bulk they are not all that useful.
In this paper, the data are extremely noisy, so it's actually hard to draw any meaningful conclusions. They claim a tensile strength of 5.4 GPa (for comparison, Kevlar is 3.6 GPa). In the published IOP paper, they have a figure showing percent change in tensile strength, modulus, toughness, and strain. The mean increase in e.g. strength is approximately 200%, but the error bars are +/- 400% (!).
Also, I'm a little bit concerned about their lab methods and how they treated their spiders, and whether they were feeding them anything other than graphene and CNTs.
Most of the hazards associated with carbon nanotubes (CNTs) are generally related to inhalation and asbestos-like behavior in the lungs (i.e. mesothelioma). I don't think other effects are well-understood at this time, particularly as relates to the environment. CNTs and graphene have been subjects of a lot of hype that they haven't lived up to; ultra-high conductivity, incredible strength, etc. While individual nanotubes may exhibit extremely high electrical conductivity and strength, they are at most a few nanometers to a few tens of microns long, and so such strength is limited to those distance scales. They fail pretty badly when used in bulk, because the intermolecular forces are weak, and tube-to-tube electrical resistance is high. Nanocomp has been making yarns and tapes out of CNTs for a while, but they haven't managed to come near to the performance of metals.
All this to say: individually nanotubes and graphene have very exciting properties, but in bulk they are not all that useful.
In this paper, the data are extremely noisy, so it's actually hard to draw any meaningful conclusions. They claim a tensile strength of 5.4 GPa (for comparison, Kevlar is 3.6 GPa). In the published IOP paper, they have a figure showing percent change in tensile strength, modulus, toughness, and strain. The mean increase in e.g. strength is approximately 200%, but the error bars are +/- 400% (!).
Also, I'm a little bit concerned about their lab methods and how they treated their spiders, and whether they were feeding them anything other than graphene and CNTs.
21 spiders of three species were selected (Pholcidae Holocnemus, Pholcidae Pholcus and Therididae Steatoda) as described in the SI. The spiders are exposed to the aqueous dispersions by spraying them in a corner of the box they are contained in, avoiding intentional direct spraying on the animals. The dragline silk is collected from 2 to 12 days later, in order to allow sufficient time for ingestion of the aqueous dispersions and the production of silk. 29% of the spiders died before the first silk collection, and a further 24% after 12 days, during which starvation could have come into play.posted by Existential Dread at 10:25 PM on November 29, 2017 [13 favorites]
They made graphene spider silk just by feeding the spiders graphene? Really?
I don't know enough about spider biology to call bullshit, but man, the temptation is strong.
posted by ryanrs at 11:29 PM on November 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
I don't know enough about spider biology to call bullshit, but man, the temptation is strong.
posted by ryanrs at 11:29 PM on November 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also, I'm a little bit concerned about their lab methods and how they treated their spiders, and whether they were feeding them anything other than graphene and CNTs.
I'm going to sound slightly evil here. I apologize in advance.
Do spiders experience suffering/pain? As insects, does it matter if they do?
I know many people who are explicitly anti-spider, who would smash spiders on sight without a second thought. Is that better or worse, to those people, to submit spiders to the industrial process that results in their possible starvation and suffering?
I swear I'm not asking in bad faith, I'm genuinely curious about this.
posted by Philipschall at 11:45 PM on November 29, 2017
I'm going to sound slightly evil here. I apologize in advance.
Do spiders experience suffering/pain? As insects, does it matter if they do?
I know many people who are explicitly anti-spider, who would smash spiders on sight without a second thought. Is that better or worse, to those people, to submit spiders to the industrial process that results in their possible starvation and suffering?
I swear I'm not asking in bad faith, I'm genuinely curious about this.
posted by Philipschall at 11:45 PM on November 29, 2017
To address the most pertinent issue you bring up: spiders aren't insects.
posted by ryanrs at 11:56 PM on November 29, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 11:56 PM on November 29, 2017 [17 favorites]
Arachnids, sorry.
posted by Philipschall at 12:04 AM on November 30, 2017
posted by Philipschall at 12:04 AM on November 30, 2017
AskSpiderMetafilter: Should I eat this aqueous dispersion that's been sprayed in the corner of my house?
posted by XMLicious at 1:02 AM on November 30, 2017 [35 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 1:02 AM on November 30, 2017 [35 favorites]
I don’t know enough about spider biology to call bullshit...
Nor me, but a glance through this account of the exquisite protein structure of spider silk and its intricate construction process powerfully reinforced my scepticism.
posted by Segundus at 1:04 AM on November 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Nor me, but a glance through this account of the exquisite protein structure of spider silk and its intricate construction process powerfully reinforced my scepticism.
posted by Segundus at 1:04 AM on November 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Huh. I already thought spiderwebs were strong enough they should be used as a building material (I have also bounced off Australian spiderwebs. Little fuckers like to build one across the front gate so I can run into it first thing in the morning).
Feeding them stuff to make extra strong webs? I feel like this could go badly for us humans.
posted by kitten magic at 1:40 AM on November 30, 2017
Feeding them stuff to make extra strong webs? I feel like this could go badly for us humans.
posted by kitten magic at 1:40 AM on November 30, 2017
Do spiders experience suffering/pain? As insects, does it matter if they do?
Also, do IRBs care more about spiders than they do about insects? Because in grad school, I (and the entire rest of my lab) did a lot of straight-up Erzsébet Báthory shit to fruit flies every day, and the only person in the entire world who gave a damn was my spouse's nine-year-old little brother.
(Note: We did not tell the kid any of the [grotesque] details about what was happening to the flies, just that I had to kill an awful lot of them.)
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 1:51 AM on November 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also, do IRBs care more about spiders than they do about insects? Because in grad school, I (and the entire rest of my lab) did a lot of straight-up Erzsébet Báthory shit to fruit flies every day, and the only person in the entire world who gave a damn was my spouse's nine-year-old little brother.
(Note: We did not tell the kid any of the [grotesque] details about what was happening to the flies, just that I had to kill an awful lot of them.)
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 1:51 AM on November 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Feeding them stuff to make extra strong webs? I feel like this could go badly for us humans.
It's not a genetic modification, it's just a food modification.
If they stop getting nanojuice they stop making nanotube webs (if they ever did)
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:52 AM on November 30, 2017
It's not a genetic modification, it's just a food modification.
If they stop getting nanojuice they stop making nanotube webs (if they ever did)
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:52 AM on November 30, 2017
Poor spiders. :(
Seriously, can we please not fuck with nature anymore than we already have? If we made graphene in the first place, then how about we duplicate how spiders make silk instead of fucking with the insect biosphere?
posted by yoga at 4:13 AM on November 30, 2017
Seriously, can we please not fuck with nature anymore than we already have? If we made graphene in the first place, then how about we duplicate how spiders make silk instead of fucking with the insect biosphere?
posted by yoga at 4:13 AM on November 30, 2017
Now feed it to bees! Feed it to bees!
posted by Molesome at 4:26 AM on November 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Molesome at 4:26 AM on November 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Let's get all Jurassic Park up in this shiznit and give it to the spidergoats.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:30 AM on November 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:30 AM on November 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
"...the research does raise questions about what kinds of effects graphene or carbon nanotubes might have when released in abundance into natural systems."
Now I remember reading a reference that small carbon particles were considered toxic in ape/monkey brain models with uptake from nasal inhalation in the 1940's.
Buckyballs are considered toxic to fish brains (which is how I came across the 1940's reference)
And it seems if you are a fruit fly torturer you can expose young fruit flies to carbon nanoparticles and they will be fine but adults die.
So yea, one might wanna be concerned. Kinda like how micro particles of plastic are in the great pacific gyre and many of them are consistent with being small hunks of plastic like you'd find from fabric applications. Almost like how you have your drier vent to the outside could cause a problem.......
posted by rough ashlar at 4:33 AM on November 30, 2017
Now I remember reading a reference that small carbon particles were considered toxic in ape/monkey brain models with uptake from nasal inhalation in the 1940's.
Buckyballs are considered toxic to fish brains (which is how I came across the 1940's reference)
And it seems if you are a fruit fly torturer you can expose young fruit flies to carbon nanoparticles and they will be fine but adults die.
So yea, one might wanna be concerned. Kinda like how micro particles of plastic are in the great pacific gyre and many of them are consistent with being small hunks of plastic like you'd find from fabric applications. Almost like how you have your drier vent to the outside could cause a problem.......
posted by rough ashlar at 4:33 AM on November 30, 2017
If they stop getting nanojuice they stop making nanotube webs
Or so the spiders would have us believe. "Oh, darn, we're not getting the special food anymore, guess we can't make those webs capable of ensnaring humans. Drat!"
posted by uncleozzy at 4:35 AM on November 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Or so the spiders would have us believe. "Oh, darn, we're not getting the special food anymore, guess we can't make those webs capable of ensnaring humans. Drat!"
posted by uncleozzy at 4:35 AM on November 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
What they don't tell you is the graphine nanojuice is made from people and in the next lab over they are teaching spiders how to do chemistry. The only saving grace of that project is they can't turn on the Bunsen burner by themselves.
posted by Nanukthedog at 4:49 AM on November 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Nanukthedog at 4:49 AM on November 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yet.
posted by briank at 5:23 AM on November 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by briank at 5:23 AM on November 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
If you can feed the nanoparticles to baby fruitflies and have them live, could you then feed the fruitflies to the spiders?
Or would they eventually be wrapping their prey in silk too tough for them to eat?
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:26 AM on November 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Or would they eventually be wrapping their prey in silk too tough for them to eat?
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:26 AM on November 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Never mind the spiders, I'm having some of that graphene soda. Imagine having nails that can claw through walls, hair that can strip wallpaper just by putting on Iron Maiden and headbanging around the room, and teeth that can bite through chains. ("Safeword? I don't need no safeword").
The downside may be that every time I take a dump it smashes the pan and burrows down to the Earth's core, but we've all been there on a Saturday morning, right? #manofsteelwomanofkleenex
(This is the second post recently that's put me in mind of Brian Aldiss' Hothouse, where plants have evolved into spider-like creatures whose webs have spanned Earth and Moon - perhaps, pace Clarke and Sheffield, the first space elevator in SF.)
posted by Devonian at 5:26 AM on November 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
The downside may be that every time I take a dump it smashes the pan and burrows down to the Earth's core, but we've all been there on a Saturday morning, right? #manofsteelwomanofkleenex
(This is the second post recently that's put me in mind of Brian Aldiss' Hothouse, where plants have evolved into spider-like creatures whose webs have spanned Earth and Moon - perhaps, pace Clarke and Sheffield, the first space elevator in SF.)
posted by Devonian at 5:26 AM on November 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
If they stop getting nanojuice they stop making nanotube webs (if they ever did)
life-uh-finds-a-way.jpg
posted by stopgap at 7:21 AM on November 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
life-uh-finds-a-way.jpg
posted by stopgap at 7:21 AM on November 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
The graphene spider ate the crack spider, the cocaine spider, the pot spider, and most of the lab.
posted by The otter lady at 8:06 AM on November 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by The otter lady at 8:06 AM on November 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Great, now not even ropes and cables will be vegan anymore.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 8:18 AM on November 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 8:18 AM on November 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yes, what could possibly go wrong?
You know, taking 2017 is a whole, I'm going to suggest that the extinction of the human species at the chelicerae of super-spiders might not be the worst outcome.
posted by nubs at 8:20 AM on November 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
You know, taking 2017 is a whole, I'm going to suggest that the extinction of the human species at the chelicerae of super-spiders might not be the worst outcome.
posted by nubs at 8:20 AM on November 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Spider-Graph, Spider-Graph,
Does whatever a spider maths
Spins a web, of high tensile strength,
Catches humans with its web,
Look Out!
Here comes your Spider-DEATH!!
posted by Fizz at 8:41 AM on November 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
Does whatever a spider maths
Spins a web, of high tensile strength,
Catches humans with its web,
Look Out!
Here comes your Spider-DEATH!!
posted by Fizz at 8:41 AM on November 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
Existential Dread: ... the data are ...
Gods bless you and your subject-verb agreement.
posted by hanov3r at 9:46 AM on November 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Gods bless you and your subject-verb agreement.
posted by hanov3r at 9:46 AM on November 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Wow, Google dictionary tells me I've been pronouncing chelicerae wrong for the last five minutes since I first encountered it.
posted by Molesome at 10:29 AM on November 30, 2017
posted by Molesome at 10:29 AM on November 30, 2017
If they stop getting nanojuice they stop making nanotube webs (if they ever did)
life-uh-finds-a-way.jpg
Good news: the amount of carbon in the atmosphere is no longer a problem
Bad news: uh...
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:15 AM on November 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
life-uh-finds-a-way.jpg
Good news: the amount of carbon in the atmosphere is no longer a problem
Bad news: uh...
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:15 AM on November 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
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