the matter of false confessions
December 13, 2017 11:33 AM Subscribe
"As soon as they start pushing an interrogation into a predetermined answer, as opposed to the truth, the outcome is inevitable." Amanda Knox on Life After Wrongful Conviction. Of further interest, False Confessions.
There’s a hardcore group in the online true crime community who are convinced Knox is guilty, or who say things like, “I don’t know whether she’s guilty but she scares me!” I have never understood what it is about her that makes people take her “odd” behaviour as evidence of murder, when there is SO MUCH evidence against Rudy Guede.
posted by andraste at 12:20 PM on December 13, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by andraste at 12:20 PM on December 13, 2017 [9 favorites]
On election night 2016 (ouch), I went to a big election night party in downtown Seattle and saw a woman who looked vaguely familiar. Just as I realized it was Amanda Knox, she looked over at me, and of course I did what you always do in moments like that, which is look away and pretend you weren't actually staring at the person (if I were cooler, I probably would have nodded or something).
Anyway, I was glad to see that she was with a group of friends and seemed to be having a good time. She was wearing a lovely pantsuit - when my friend complimented her on it, she was gracious. (This was really early in the night, before everything went south) Anyway, I was so glad to see that she has some measure of normality in her life these days. Seeing her in person, a normal young woman out with some friends, the wild character that the tabloid media made her into seemed beyond laughable.
posted by lunasol at 12:48 PM on December 13, 2017 [7 favorites]
Anyway, I was glad to see that she was with a group of friends and seemed to be having a good time. She was wearing a lovely pantsuit - when my friend complimented her on it, she was gracious. (This was really early in the night, before everything went south) Anyway, I was so glad to see that she has some measure of normality in her life these days. Seeing her in person, a normal young woman out with some friends, the wild character that the tabloid media made her into seemed beyond laughable.
posted by lunasol at 12:48 PM on December 13, 2017 [7 favorites]
Hell, you can find them on Metafilter. It's just genuinely bizarre to me. People contorting themselves, logic, facts, when the case is quite simple. A career criminal with a history of violence left his DNA in Kercher, for god's sake, and yet some people really really wanted Knox to be guilty because they just didn't like her.
posted by tavella at 12:52 PM on December 13, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by tavella at 12:52 PM on December 13, 2017 [10 favorites]
Off-topic: Does her dress have the Deathly Hallows on the chest?
posted by leotrotsky at 1:04 PM on December 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by leotrotsky at 1:04 PM on December 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
The police in the UK try to avoid false confessions by not going after a confession. After the high profile miscarriages of justice in the 1970s, new laws and new interview techniques were brought in. There is a nice little write up on the Innocence Project.
posted by antiwiggle at 1:24 PM on December 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by antiwiggle at 1:24 PM on December 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
Never, ever talk to the cops..
posted by Ragged Richard at 1:38 PM on December 13, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Ragged Richard at 1:38 PM on December 13, 2017 [6 favorites]
If you watch Elementary with my honey and I, roughly 50% of screen time will be accompanied by us yelling, "GET A LAWYER!" and "STOP TALKING TO THE COPS!" It's maddening, and in my more cynical moments I wonder if it's engineered to normalize talking to the police without a lawyer present.
posted by fiercecupcake at 2:29 PM on December 13, 2017 [19 favorites]
posted by fiercecupcake at 2:29 PM on December 13, 2017 [19 favorites]
It's maddening, and in my more cynical moments I wonder if it's engineered to normalize talking to the police without a lawyer present.
Given that police procedurals were pretty much created to be pro-cop propaganda, I think that's a safe bet.
posted by palomar at 2:38 PM on December 13, 2017 [15 favorites]
Given that police procedurals were pretty much created to be pro-cop propaganda, I think that's a safe bet.
posted by palomar at 2:38 PM on December 13, 2017 [15 favorites]
The moment in the Netflix documentary when the investigator says that he first thought Amanda Knox was guilty was because she was kissing and hugging her boyfriend in the aftermath of the murder ... that moment really sticks out to me. I realized how important it is to act within the prescribed range of acceptable behaviors because you don't want to trigger a powerful person's confirmation bias. I think about that a lot because I'm living in a foreign country with an even more messed up government than the US right now... "Act normal because your life may depend on it."
posted by Skwirl at 2:42 PM on December 13, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by Skwirl at 2:42 PM on December 13, 2017 [8 favorites]
There is a great chapter about interrogation in David Simon's book Homicide (which became the basis for the TV show of the same name), describing the completely legal tricks and pressure that the detectives routinely bring to bear against murder suspects, none of whom should be saying anything except that they won't answer questions without a lawyer. He contrasts the behavior of the amateur, as it were, suspect to some professional hit men who used to work in Baltimore: their appearances in the interrogation room became like the old Ralph Wolf and Sam Sheepdog cartoon, at time to punch out: "Well, anything to say this time?" "No, just want my lawyer".
There's a great passage where he addresses an imaginary suspect. See that sign on the wall? Right. And who works in the HOMICIDE DEPARTMENT? Right. And what do homicide detectives get paid to do? And what did you do, last night? Maybe talking to them isn't such a great idea.
posted by thelonius at 2:50 PM on December 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
There's a great passage where he addresses an imaginary suspect. See that sign on the wall? Right. And who works in the HOMICIDE DEPARTMENT? Right. And what do homicide detectives get paid to do? And what did you do, last night? Maybe talking to them isn't such a great idea.
posted by thelonius at 2:50 PM on December 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
Given that police procedurals were pretty much created to be pro-cop propaganda,
OMG, Dragnet. They weren't the slightest bit subtle about it, either.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:51 PM on December 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
OMG, Dragnet. They weren't the slightest bit subtle about it, either.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:51 PM on December 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
The moment in the Netflix documentary when the investigator says that he first thought Amanda Knox was guilty was because she was kissing and hugging her boyfriend in the aftermath of the murder ... that moment really sticks out to me.
It's been over 15 years now, but I had friends who were the victim of a crime and initially had no idea that the cops had decided one of them was actually the perpetrator. The police twisted everything they said and did to fit their narrative that my friend was the guilty party. Apparently, for instance, my friend's wife was "too calm" when she made the 911 call (you'd think "calm during a 911 call" would be a good thing, but apparently it's not always), and it was very suspicious that a firefighter overheard one of them say to the other as their house burned down, "Well, at least now we don't have to worry about getting that carpet replaced," which is totally the kind of joke I would also make in the same situation. You'd think that first responders would know better than anybody that how people react in a moment of crisis varies widely, and I'm sure they do know that. The police just also know that they are free to interpret people's reactions to fit the narrative they're trying to build.
posted by Orlop at 3:14 PM on December 13, 2017 [23 favorites]
It's been over 15 years now, but I had friends who were the victim of a crime and initially had no idea that the cops had decided one of them was actually the perpetrator. The police twisted everything they said and did to fit their narrative that my friend was the guilty party. Apparently, for instance, my friend's wife was "too calm" when she made the 911 call (you'd think "calm during a 911 call" would be a good thing, but apparently it's not always), and it was very suspicious that a firefighter overheard one of them say to the other as their house burned down, "Well, at least now we don't have to worry about getting that carpet replaced," which is totally the kind of joke I would also make in the same situation. You'd think that first responders would know better than anybody that how people react in a moment of crisis varies widely, and I'm sure they do know that. The police just also know that they are free to interpret people's reactions to fit the narrative they're trying to build.
posted by Orlop at 3:14 PM on December 13, 2017 [23 favorites]
At primary school we used a lot of tabloid newspapers when we were painting things with poster paints - we were always painting things with poster paints, and occasionally sticking pasta to cardboard and spraying it silver. I thought that was what pasta was for. The mysteries of education and food in the 1970s.
So I that's where I read about the story of the murder of Lesley Molseed and the arrest and conviction of Stefan Kisko. I was about the same age as the victim. Nonetheless, looking at the way the accused was spoken about in the newspapers it was already clear to me, even at that age, that even if he was innocent of the crime he was going to be convicted and that the confession was very fishy indeed. When he was finally cleared, sixteen years later, I was unsurprised and still quite angry. The freeing of the Birmingham Six and other wrongly imprisoned Irish men was around the same time.
If some of us seem a little too generous to those who appear to be obviously guilty, in my case I remember too many of these cases of the marginal being fitted up to give an eager public emotional satisfaction and closure.
posted by Grangousier at 3:24 PM on December 13, 2017 [9 favorites]
So I that's where I read about the story of the murder of Lesley Molseed and the arrest and conviction of Stefan Kisko. I was about the same age as the victim. Nonetheless, looking at the way the accused was spoken about in the newspapers it was already clear to me, even at that age, that even if he was innocent of the crime he was going to be convicted and that the confession was very fishy indeed. When he was finally cleared, sixteen years later, I was unsurprised and still quite angry. The freeing of the Birmingham Six and other wrongly imprisoned Irish men was around the same time.
If some of us seem a little too generous to those who appear to be obviously guilty, in my case I remember too many of these cases of the marginal being fitted up to give an eager public emotional satisfaction and closure.
posted by Grangousier at 3:24 PM on December 13, 2017 [9 favorites]
Law professor James Duane explains why you should never talk to the police.
One of the elements not well-covered in that one, and I can't find a good link right now, is that even if you avoid all those pitfalls and you are totally innocent and the cop believes you... he cannot testify on your behalf. He can ONLY use what you've said to incriminate you; he cannot be a witness for the defense. What you say can be used against you; it can't be used to exonerate you.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:10 PM on December 13, 2017 [11 favorites]
One of the elements not well-covered in that one, and I can't find a good link right now, is that even if you avoid all those pitfalls and you are totally innocent and the cop believes you... he cannot testify on your behalf. He can ONLY use what you've said to incriminate you; he cannot be a witness for the defense. What you say can be used against you; it can't be used to exonerate you.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:10 PM on December 13, 2017 [11 favorites]
The moment in the Netflix documentary when the investigator says that he first thought Amanda Knox was guilty was because she was kissing and hugging her boyfriend in the aftermath of the murder
Yep. And yet seems such perfectly normal behaviour to me, that someone in a strange country where they have no family or close friends and don't speak the language very well would cling for comfort to the one person on the scene they have some level of intimacy with. The kissing is just a few soft pecks, it's not like they're full-on pashing with tongues down throats or anything.
posted by andraste at 4:23 PM on December 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yep. And yet seems such perfectly normal behaviour to me, that someone in a strange country where they have no family or close friends and don't speak the language very well would cling for comfort to the one person on the scene they have some level of intimacy with. The kissing is just a few soft pecks, it's not like they're full-on pashing with tongues down throats or anything.
posted by andraste at 4:23 PM on December 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
The police in the UK try to avoid false confessions by not going after a confession. After the high profile miscarriages of justice in the 1970s, new laws and new interview techniques were brought in.
There was a long-running UK TV show called Rough Justice which covered some of these high profile cases (and some not so high profile). There's a website which archives some episodes and includes some great articles / case studies, and there's also a fascinating documentary about the show itself, called The Rise and Fall of Rough Justice.
I love this kind of investigative journalism and wish true crime shows today would be more straightforward in their presentation rather than recapping every ten minutes and cutting away to a new scene every five seconds. But then I was also surprised at how slow those old episodes seem even to me these days.
posted by andraste at 4:34 PM on December 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
There was a long-running UK TV show called Rough Justice which covered some of these high profile cases (and some not so high profile). There's a website which archives some episodes and includes some great articles / case studies, and there's also a fascinating documentary about the show itself, called The Rise and Fall of Rough Justice.
I love this kind of investigative journalism and wish true crime shows today would be more straightforward in their presentation rather than recapping every ten minutes and cutting away to a new scene every five seconds. But then I was also surprised at how slow those old episodes seem even to me these days.
posted by andraste at 4:34 PM on December 13, 2017 [3 favorites]
What with their insistence upon a Socially Correct response to crime I'll wager these police officers never read L'Etranger in their teen E'dgelorde days!
Elementary ... "GET A LAWYER!" and "STOP TALKING TO THE COPS!"
Castle was the show to have me yelling that. Almost like it was set in a fantasy world where lawyers were never invented.
posted by I'm always feeling, Blue at 4:42 PM on December 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
Elementary ... "GET A LAWYER!" and "STOP TALKING TO THE COPS!"
Castle was the show to have me yelling that. Almost like it was set in a fantasy world where lawyers were never invented.
posted by I'm always feeling, Blue at 4:42 PM on December 13, 2017 [1 favorite]
some people really really wanted Knox to be guilty because they just didn't like her
See also: Lindy Chamberlain.
posted by flabdablet at 6:53 PM on December 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
See also: Lindy Chamberlain.
posted by flabdablet at 6:53 PM on December 13, 2017 [5 favorites]
One of the things I hate most - and it's especially relevant to Amanda Knox - is the "an innocent person wouldn't act that way" attitude that people get. A father whose child was murdered MUST act in THIS fashion. Parents whose daughter was kidnapped AREN'T PERFORMING ENOUGH GRIEF. It's...
...well, it's not good. (says I, trying self-calming techniques)
posted by Guy Smiley at 7:12 PM on December 13, 2017 [9 favorites]
...well, it's not good. (says I, trying self-calming techniques)
posted by Guy Smiley at 7:12 PM on December 13, 2017 [9 favorites]
Given that police procedurals were pretty much created to be pro-cop propaganda, I think that's a safe bet.
I had to stop watching Miss Sloane the other night because her lawyer was yelling at her that she had just entirely abandoned her fifth amendment rights by responding to questioning during congressional testimony, because it is an all or nothing affair.
It helped that it's a boring spoon feed of a movie, but that was just appallingly irresponsible. I bet people have gone to prison partly as a result of misconceptions created by that movie.
posted by Coventry at 8:21 PM on December 13, 2017
I had to stop watching Miss Sloane the other night because her lawyer was yelling at her that she had just entirely abandoned her fifth amendment rights by responding to questioning during congressional testimony, because it is an all or nothing affair.
It helped that it's a boring spoon feed of a movie, but that was just appallingly irresponsible. I bet people have gone to prison partly as a result of misconceptions created by that movie.
posted by Coventry at 8:21 PM on December 13, 2017
One of the elements not well-covered in that one, and I can't find a good link right now, is that even if you avoid all those pitfalls and you are totally innocent and the cop believes you... he cannot testify on your behalf. He can ONLY use what you've said to incriminate you; he cannot be a witness for the defense. What you say can be used against you; it can't be used to exonerate you.
If you do find a link please post because this seems, I don't know, likely true only in narrow contexts? I'm 0% lawyer, but just given the nominal requirements on sharing exonerating evidence. I'd be flabbergasted if a policeman was in position of some material, exculpatory evidence and it was banned from court because of that.
That departmental procedures might prevent a cop from giving vague "I got good vibes from this person" testimony on behalf of the defense is very believable.
posted by mark k at 8:40 PM on December 13, 2017
If you do find a link please post because this seems, I don't know, likely true only in narrow contexts? I'm 0% lawyer, but just given the nominal requirements on sharing exonerating evidence. I'd be flabbergasted if a policeman was in position of some material, exculpatory evidence and it was banned from court because of that.
That departmental procedures might prevent a cop from giving vague "I got good vibes from this person" testimony on behalf of the defense is very believable.
posted by mark k at 8:40 PM on December 13, 2017
even if you avoid all those pitfalls and you are totally innocent and the cop believes you... he cannot testify on your behalf. He can ONLY use what you've said to incriminate you; he cannot be a witness for the defense. What you say can be used against you; it can't be used to exonerate you.
This is not a thing. The defendant's right to subpoena witnesses is part of the Sixth Amendment ("the accussed shall have the right to . . . compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor").
Also, the "never, ever, ever, ever talk to cops" thing is not something that everyone lawyer/law professor agrees with, even those who have dedicated their lives to indigent defense.
posted by skewed at 10:14 PM on December 13, 2017
This is not a thing. The defendant's right to subpoena witnesses is part of the Sixth Amendment ("the accussed shall have the right to . . . compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor").
Also, the "never, ever, ever, ever talk to cops" thing is not something that everyone lawyer/law professor agrees with, even those who have dedicated their lives to indigent defense.
posted by skewed at 10:14 PM on December 13, 2017
I remember both those threads so well. Metafilter's great contributions to this case were the brilliant observations that she deserved to go to jail for allowing herself to be railroaded and for appearing evil and or psychopathic in the face.
posted by bleep at 10:47 PM on December 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by bleep at 10:47 PM on December 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
Though, to be fair to past-Metafilter, the "visible signs of psycopathy"/eye movement person made exactly six comments on the site, all in that thread, then closed their account and fucked off. So yay for that at least.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 11:23 PM on December 13, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 11:23 PM on December 13, 2017 [8 favorites]
One of the things I hate most - and it's especially relevant to Amanda Knox - is the "an innocent person wouldn't act that way" attitude that people get. A father whose child was murdered MUST act in THIS fashion. Parents whose daughter was kidnapped AREN'T PERFORMING ENOUGH GRIEF
The idea that we know a priori how people would act, in an extreme situation, and that we can make huge deductions about a person's guilt based on that, is also at the root of the "common sense" idea that no one who is innocent would make a false confession.
posted by thelonius at 3:19 AM on December 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
The idea that we know a priori how people would act, in an extreme situation, and that we can make huge deductions about a person's guilt based on that, is also at the root of the "common sense" idea that no one who is innocent would make a false confession.
posted by thelonius at 3:19 AM on December 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
I have a long-time close friend I consider very clear-headed and reasonable about, well, nearly everything but who is utterly convinced Knox is guilty, just "because." Without a trace of hyperbole I can say I am bewildered by her certainty of Knox's guilt as it is so wildly out of character, dissonant, with her carefully-constructed thinking on everything else we have ever discussed.
posted by bz at 9:11 AM on December 15, 2017
posted by bz at 9:11 AM on December 15, 2017
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Astonishingly, more than 1 out of 4 people wrongfully convicted but later exonerated by DNA evidence made a false confession or incriminating statement.
And also there's the Netflix doc The Confession Tapes, which pretty much invalidated our whole criminal justice system, IMO. It's just brutally disheartening. The main takeaway for me was: No matter how innocent you are or the situation is, and how friendly/non-threatening the cop is, NEVER, EVER, SAY A SINGLE WORD.
posted by Huck500 at 12:19 PM on December 13, 2017 [22 favorites]