Stop asking me ‘what about men?’
January 4, 2018 7:50 PM Subscribe
"I can't tell you about the hundreds of messages or tweets we get asking ‘what about women?’ – because it’s never happened."
Jessica Eaton is a Doctoral Researcher in Forensic Psychology at the University of Birmingham, UK. She writes extensively on the abuse and exploitation of vulnerable people, advocates strongly against victim-blaming, and campaigns for evidenced-based CSE (Child Sexual Exploitation) resources in teaching children to be aware of their vulnerability. She is also a founder and chairperson of The Eaton Foundation, a mental health support organisation for men in need.
From the main link:
Jessica Eaton is a Doctoral Researcher in Forensic Psychology at the University of Birmingham, UK. She writes extensively on the abuse and exploitation of vulnerable people, advocates strongly against victim-blaming, and campaigns for evidenced-based CSE (Child Sexual Exploitation) resources in teaching children to be aware of their vulnerability. She is also a founder and chairperson of The Eaton Foundation, a mental health support organisation for men in need.
From the main link:
Why don’t I get any abuse when I speak and write about men and boys?
Why am I hailed?
Why did we win 6 charity awards and over £300k in the first 18 months of operation?
Why did I end up on every TV channel and radio in the UK? Why can I launch studies and campaigns and videos and appeals for TEF about male mental health and receive ZERO whataboutery comments?
And why do I get shouted down if I even dare post one tweet about violence against women or rape statistics or murders of women by partners?
Why do I get hundreds of messages and tweets every week asking me:
‘But what about men?’
And actually, this isn’t rocket science. This is uncomfortable but it’s real talk:
Women are socialised into their gender roles (gender roles are harmful, narrow, stereotypical characteristics and expectations assigned to males and females to conform to a societal norm) to not even possess a shred of the sense of entitlement that men have. Women do not read a campaign about male mental health or male abuse or male cancers and furiously tweet back ‘what about women, you cunt?!’ because they didn’t think about themselves when they read it. They didn’t see the campaign as two fingers up to women.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Sorry for the delayed delete here -- thread has gotten off to a pretty rocky start and it might be better to try this again fresh another time. -- LobsterMitten
"because it's never happened"
I'm reminded of the twitter bot that used to search for people asking "why isn't there an international men's day" on international women's day and reply, telling them the date of international men's day.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:55 PM on January 4, 2018 [17 favorites]
I'm reminded of the twitter bot that used to search for people asking "why isn't there an international men's day" on international women's day and reply, telling them the date of international men's day.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:55 PM on January 4, 2018 [17 favorites]
I'm pretty sure if you asked any AMAB person who presents feminine their response to this that they would immediately disagree that (cis) women don't do this. Cis women are really bad at admitting they do this same thing to groups over which they have more societal power.
posted by naturesgreatestmiracle at 9:12 PM on January 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by naturesgreatestmiracle at 9:12 PM on January 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'm not clear what the "this" is in "disagree that (cis) women don't do this." "Harangue people over the internet for not focusing on women"? Setting aside the question of whether or not cis women self-report accurately, you're conflating source and recipient.
The article isn't a woman saying she doesn't harangue people over the internet. It's a woman pointing out that the abuse she receives is highly one-sided.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:21 PM on January 4, 2018 [13 favorites]
The article isn't a woman saying she doesn't harangue people over the internet. It's a woman pointing out that the abuse she receives is highly one-sided.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:21 PM on January 4, 2018 [13 favorites]
“ don’t do this” meaning centering themselves in a conversation that’s not about them. Cis women do do this a lot when a gender nonconforming AMAB person is talking about their own experiences. I wasn’t referring to abusive comments.
posted by naturesgreatestmiracle at 9:25 PM on January 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by naturesgreatestmiracle at 9:25 PM on January 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
yes, the author should have subtitled it to refer to "men's work" rather than just "work" - if the author had a choice and didn't just have the title assigned by the publisher.
I dunno. This doesn‘t seem like a clerical oversight or just a clumsy misnomer. Denying women‘s work the label ‚work‘ is intentionally sexist. It is a big way in which the patriarchy asserts itself, and it still happens all over the place, not just in that one book. It’s a society-wide sexist pattern. That’s well worth pointing out repeatedly IMHO.
Ok, let‘s not rehash that one, sorry for the derail (which might qualify as ‚freaking annoying‘). I guess I‘m just bitter because I watch my little kids and do housework all day, it‘s a challenging job physically and psychologically, and yet somehow when people ask ‚so, do you work?‘, I have to answer ‚no, I‘m home with the kids‘.
posted by The Toad at 9:26 PM on January 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
I dunno. This doesn‘t seem like a clerical oversight or just a clumsy misnomer. Denying women‘s work the label ‚work‘ is intentionally sexist. It is a big way in which the patriarchy asserts itself, and it still happens all over the place, not just in that one book. It’s a society-wide sexist pattern. That’s well worth pointing out repeatedly IMHO.
Ok, let‘s not rehash that one, sorry for the derail (which might qualify as ‚freaking annoying‘). I guess I‘m just bitter because I watch my little kids and do housework all day, it‘s a challenging job physically and psychologically, and yet somehow when people ask ‚so, do you work?‘, I have to answer ‚no, I‘m home with the kids‘.
posted by The Toad at 9:26 PM on January 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
It's a great article, I can totally dig why she is so frustrated, that shit would drive me bonkers.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 10:05 PM on January 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 10:05 PM on January 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Okay, this is just infuriating. One (presumably cis) woman writes an article "pointing out that the abuse she receives is highly one-sided". So presumably I as a trans women can point out that the overwhelming amount of abuse and "whataboutism" I receive comes from progressive cis women and - surprisingly - none from progressive cis men.
Before transitioning:
- Cis women yelling at me that I'm not allowed to have an opinion about gender
- Being raped by a progressive cis woman and then later harassed by cis women for "derailing" conversations about rape
- Constant gaslighting about the non-existence of my own fears and the threats that I perceive
- Being excluded from every conversation about parenting because as a "man" I have less competence
- Have every conversation always be about how much privilege I must have, while not allowing me to have a voice
During transition:
- Getting excluded from medical examinations of my own kids by cis woman doctor who assumed I abused them (because I "didn't look right" to her... i.e., non-passing trans femme)
- Barrage of online abuse from cis women (esp., "gender critical feminists") every time trans women's rights to go to the bathroom are discussed
- Excluded from the "women's" group during staff discussion of gender equity because it would make the nice cis ladies uncomfortable
- In everyday life every act of transmisogyny directed at me is magically recast by cis women as a form of misogyny that is "really" all about them
I mean, the author of the piece make the remarkable assertion that...
Women are socialised into their gender roles (gender roles are harmful, narrow, stereotypical characteristics and expectations assigned to males and females to conform to a societal norm) to not even possess a shred of the sense of entitlement that men have.
I see zero evidence of that in my life... but I do run into some very entitled TERF women who demand that I cast out of public life. On the contrary, cis women have a massive amount of entitlement when it comes to gender. They feel entitled to define every conversation about gender as if "cis men versus cis women" is the only relevant gender issue, and when transgender people have concerns that make cis women "uncomfortable" they just ignore us.
And seriously, if you find yourself writing "It is not useful to ‘send a gentle reminder than men can get raped too, you know’. If you’re reading this and you know you have done this to someone, please think twice before doing it again. It’s not helpful. It’s derailing." ... all I can say is FUCK YOU TOO. The amount of mockery and contempt I got for trying to talk about my experience of being raped by a cis woman while (back then) presenting as a man was appalling... and the worst of it came from cis women who don't want to face the prospect that they too might be rapists. It is NOT a derail for actual survivors to be angry about the very real way in which they are excluded from these conversations, and again FUCK YOU for treating the physical violation of my body as a "derail". This article is gross and I wish I had never read it.
posted by saltbush and olive at 10:08 PM on January 4, 2018 [13 favorites]
Before transitioning:
- Cis women yelling at me that I'm not allowed to have an opinion about gender
- Being raped by a progressive cis woman and then later harassed by cis women for "derailing" conversations about rape
- Constant gaslighting about the non-existence of my own fears and the threats that I perceive
- Being excluded from every conversation about parenting because as a "man" I have less competence
- Have every conversation always be about how much privilege I must have, while not allowing me to have a voice
During transition:
- Getting excluded from medical examinations of my own kids by cis woman doctor who assumed I abused them (because I "didn't look right" to her... i.e., non-passing trans femme)
- Barrage of online abuse from cis women (esp., "gender critical feminists") every time trans women's rights to go to the bathroom are discussed
- Excluded from the "women's" group during staff discussion of gender equity because it would make the nice cis ladies uncomfortable
- In everyday life every act of transmisogyny directed at me is magically recast by cis women as a form of misogyny that is "really" all about them
I mean, the author of the piece make the remarkable assertion that...
Women are socialised into their gender roles (gender roles are harmful, narrow, stereotypical characteristics and expectations assigned to males and females to conform to a societal norm) to not even possess a shred of the sense of entitlement that men have.
I see zero evidence of that in my life... but I do run into some very entitled TERF women who demand that I cast out of public life. On the contrary, cis women have a massive amount of entitlement when it comes to gender. They feel entitled to define every conversation about gender as if "cis men versus cis women" is the only relevant gender issue, and when transgender people have concerns that make cis women "uncomfortable" they just ignore us.
And seriously, if you find yourself writing "It is not useful to ‘send a gentle reminder than men can get raped too, you know’. If you’re reading this and you know you have done this to someone, please think twice before doing it again. It’s not helpful. It’s derailing." ... all I can say is FUCK YOU TOO. The amount of mockery and contempt I got for trying to talk about my experience of being raped by a cis woman while (back then) presenting as a man was appalling... and the worst of it came from cis women who don't want to face the prospect that they too might be rapists. It is NOT a derail for actual survivors to be angry about the very real way in which they are excluded from these conversations, and again FUCK YOU for treating the physical violation of my body as a "derail". This article is gross and I wish I had never read it.
posted by saltbush and olive at 10:08 PM on January 4, 2018 [13 favorites]
She's absolutely right about how shitty it is to have that happen. I'd be apoplectic with rage were I faced with it. I mean why the fuck should I have to explain the concept of a study's scope?
"Why did we win 6 charity awards and over £300k in the first 18 months of operation?"
But I also thought the answer to that quote was that until relatively recently, you couldn't really find organizations dedicated to dealing with the fact the patriarchy and the broken behaviors it instills hurts men too, and offering them direct support to combat it. Clearly there's a demand for the help if it's grown exponentially.
Still though, what an infuriating thing to have to put up with. I'd end up doing a lot of rage-writing too.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 10:25 PM on January 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
"Why did we win 6 charity awards and over £300k in the first 18 months of operation?"
But I also thought the answer to that quote was that until relatively recently, you couldn't really find organizations dedicated to dealing with the fact the patriarchy and the broken behaviors it instills hurts men too, and offering them direct support to combat it. Clearly there's a demand for the help if it's grown exponentially.
Still though, what an infuriating thing to have to put up with. I'd end up doing a lot of rage-writing too.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 10:25 PM on January 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm reminded of the twitter bot that used to search for people asking "why isn't there an international men's day" on international women's day and reply, telling them the date of international men's day.
Are you thinking of the wonderful human Richard Herring?
posted by archy at 11:50 PM on January 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Are you thinking of the wonderful human Richard Herring?
posted by archy at 11:50 PM on January 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
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it was in grad school, we were reading a great book on men, employment and masculinity, and half (or more) of the class was wasted with people complaining about how the book didn't talk about women.
yes, the author should have subtitled it to refer to "men's work" rather than just "work" - if the author had a choice and didn't just have the title assigned by the publisher.
to this day, I remember the book as a fascinating study of class and masculinity - and how freaking annoying the rest of my fellow students were to spend the whole time complaining about what it wasn't about.
posted by jb at 8:50 PM on January 4, 2018 [1 favorite]