Cutting 'Old Heads' at IBM
March 24, 2018 10:34 AM Subscribe
As it scrambled to compete in the internet world, the once-dominant tech company cut tens of thousands of U.S. workers, hitting its most senior employees hardest and flouting rules against age bias. (SLProPublica feature by Peter Gosselin and Ariana Tobin)
...and that tactic of firing experienced and capable employees in a knowledge-based industry resulted in their stock down 28% over the past 5 years (compared with competitor Accenture up 94% over the same period).
So, great job guys. You were assholes, you broke the law, and you still suck.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:55 AM on March 24, 2018 [59 favorites]
So, great job guys. You were assholes, you broke the law, and you still suck.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:55 AM on March 24, 2018 [59 favorites]
But the trend of, “We’ll just openly break the law because we know you can’t effectively sue us” is extremely disturbing. Thanks Trump-think.
posted by Autumnheart at 11:02 AM on March 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Autumnheart at 11:02 AM on March 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
Just as I read this piece I get angrier and angrier and angrier at the sheer smug arrogance and callousness of the whole thing.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:06 AM on March 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:06 AM on March 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
As a 53 year old working in tech who'd like to keep working for the next dozen or so years, this shit scares the hell out of me.
posted by octothorpe at 11:14 AM on March 24, 2018 [32 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 11:14 AM on March 24, 2018 [32 favorites]
I'm 57 and stuck in a job (in my field) that I don't enjoy at all. But at my age, finding another one that pays at least as well seems like a ridiculous pipe dream.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:22 AM on March 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:22 AM on March 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
If you're over 50 do not under any circumstances quit a STEM job before you have another lined up (or you are ready to exit the workforce). In other news, if you know of an open IT Director position in Toronto, my partner would like to hear about it.
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:41 AM on March 24, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:41 AM on March 24, 2018 [16 favorites]
This and the FPP after it, plus some other nonsense I just read deprecating and disrespecting the autonomy and choices of a couple women in tech...I can't even read the entire articles. This all makes me so angry. I have to go kill some things in Diablo III or hit a tennis ball or something right now.
posted by limeonaire at 11:47 AM on March 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 11:47 AM on March 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
So you basically have to earn enough money to pay off student loans and fund 30 years of retirement between the ages of 25 and 50.
... and if you get a graduate degree or move around a couple of times to try to get a foothold somewhere, you won't be earning enough to save anything or make a dent in your student loans until you're about 30. The article describes the "coaxing out" of work as beginning in your 40s. So, really:
... you basically have to earn enough money to pay off student loans and fund30 40+ years of retirement between the ages of 25 30 and 50 40.
this is fine
posted by Anita Bath at 11:55 AM on March 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
... and if you get a graduate degree or move around a couple of times to try to get a foothold somewhere, you won't be earning enough to save anything or make a dent in your student loans until you're about 30. The article describes the "coaxing out" of work as beginning in your 40s. So, really:
... you basically have to earn enough money to pay off student loans and fund
this is fine
posted by Anita Bath at 11:55 AM on March 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
I am grateful I got my 30 years in and got the pension I was promised. I did not really want to leave IBM, but it didn't seem safe to stay. (And this was 15 years ago...)
It is disheartening to compare my experience at IBM from 1973-1988 with IBM from 1989-2003. During the first part, the legacy of the Watsons was still strong. Starting with Akers, the focus was profit over all.
Everything we had come to accept as 'the IBM way' was overturned. The stock owners seemed to do OK, at least then. Sounds like it has just gotten worse.
The best company I ever worked for, but toward the end, just another average capitalist enterprise.
posted by MtDewd at 11:58 AM on March 24, 2018 [15 favorites]
It is disheartening to compare my experience at IBM from 1973-1988 with IBM from 1989-2003. During the first part, the legacy of the Watsons was still strong. Starting with Akers, the focus was profit over all.
Everything we had come to accept as 'the IBM way' was overturned. The stock owners seemed to do OK, at least then. Sounds like it has just gotten worse.
The best company I ever worked for, but toward the end, just another average capitalist enterprise.
posted by MtDewd at 11:58 AM on March 24, 2018 [15 favorites]
I was laid off from a "high-tech young-people" job in 2009 just months after turning 50. I have never been able to replace my lost wages, my savings or my marriage. Am I bitter? Fuck yeah!
posted by DaddyNewt at 11:59 AM on March 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by DaddyNewt at 11:59 AM on March 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
My company employs a large number of non-mgmt tech employees over 50 (including me) . In a way it feels like the land that neoliberalism forgot. I think it has largely to do with the company being privately held AND profitable.
Should the owner, who is in his seventies, sell... Not sure what will happen.
The folks who were encouraged to believe IBM's BS about lifetime employment... Direct effect of the common tech worker disconnect from the fact that they are working class. (Not blaming them for our sucky corporate culture.) More reason I'm glad I stay connected to Tech Workers Coalition, to remind me frequently that This Is Capitalism.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 12:32 PM on March 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
Should the owner, who is in his seventies, sell... Not sure what will happen.
The folks who were encouraged to believe IBM's BS about lifetime employment... Direct effect of the common tech worker disconnect from the fact that they are working class. (Not blaming them for our sucky corporate culture.) More reason I'm glad I stay connected to Tech Workers Coalition, to remind me frequently that This Is Capitalism.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 12:32 PM on March 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
I wouldn't call IBM's lifetime employment BS. Just something that's no longer in effect.
It did last 100 years.
posted by MtDewd at 12:48 PM on March 24, 2018
It did last 100 years.
posted by MtDewd at 12:48 PM on March 24, 2018
I was actually laid-off by IBM when I was 40, so at least I got that out of my way early in my career. Getting canned by them was a blessing since they'd given me no work to do for the previous two years but had paid for me to go to grad school. By laying me off, they freed me to do some actual interesting work and absolved me of my $60,000 tuition debt to them. They also gave me a month's notice and three month's severance and paid for health-care for the rest of the year. So getting cut by IBM was really one of the best things that could have happened to me at the time.
That said, when a friend contacted me about interviewing to work at a new IBM site here, I politely declined. I'm never going back.
posted by octothorpe at 12:50 PM on March 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
That said, when a friend contacted me about interviewing to work at a new IBM site here, I politely declined. I'm never going back.
posted by octothorpe at 12:50 PM on March 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
When the ax suddenly fell, IBM provided almost no information about why an employee was cut or who else was departing, leaving people to piece together what had happened
Is any layoff really that transparent? Most layoffs I’ve been a party to are like UFO abductions, here one moment, gone the next.
posted by dr_dank at 12:56 PM on March 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
Is any layoff really that transparent? Most layoffs I’ve been a party to are like UFO abductions, here one moment, gone the next.
posted by dr_dank at 12:56 PM on March 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
I work for a place (not IBM) that is apparently laying off everyone over 50 and apparently random other people probably to make it legal. Fortunately most of the laid-off folks do seem to be getting decent jobs. But it is making my life absolutely miserable.
posted by miyabo at 1:46 PM on March 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by miyabo at 1:46 PM on March 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
my slightly younger brother was lucky to get his 30 years (and more) at IBM - he's been vague about stuff, probably has to be, but i don't think he's been expressly encouraged to retire - but then the atmosphere is such and the younger people running things are such dicks that just shy of 60, he's throwing in the towel and retiring
he's in good shape, though, which is more than i can say for me and my lousy prospects - (hint - i'm not retiring any time soon unless i'm forced to for health reasons)
posted by pyramid termite at 2:25 PM on March 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
he's in good shape, though, which is more than i can say for me and my lousy prospects - (hint - i'm not retiring any time soon unless i'm forced to for health reasons)
posted by pyramid termite at 2:25 PM on March 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Growing up, a lot of my friends' dads worked at places like IBM. I hear IBM was crunch timing departments hard due to the recent reduction in workforce. I'm not sure if any of the dads are still at IBM now, a lot of them took elective severances or were laid off in the last few years.
posted by JauntyFedora at 2:33 PM on March 24, 2018
posted by JauntyFedora at 2:33 PM on March 24, 2018
But the trend of, “We’ll just openly break the law because we know you can’t effectively sue us” is extremely disturbing. Thanks Trump-think.
Trust me. That mindset pre-dates Trump by decades, if not a century or so.
The missus was uncerimoniously booted from her job, last Friday. After 22 years of loyal service as the company executive director, she was kicked to the curb pretty much because a new hire (a 20-something with a real cob up her ass about older people) has one of the co-owners (a 40-something who deeply desires to still be a young woman) utterly infatuated and wrapped around her finger, and taking everything the 20-something says as gospel. It was definitely age-descrimination obfuscated by “issues” that were none of my wife’s doing. We are currently all but income-less right now.
We’ve been hitting the support groups for older people looking for work or looking tomre-enter the workplace, and it’s not exactly encouraging. When you’re 60, age is definitely held against you, no matter your qualifications.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:56 PM on March 24, 2018 [16 favorites]
Trust me. That mindset pre-dates Trump by decades, if not a century or so.
The missus was uncerimoniously booted from her job, last Friday. After 22 years of loyal service as the company executive director, she was kicked to the curb pretty much because a new hire (a 20-something with a real cob up her ass about older people) has one of the co-owners (a 40-something who deeply desires to still be a young woman) utterly infatuated and wrapped around her finger, and taking everything the 20-something says as gospel. It was definitely age-descrimination obfuscated by “issues” that were none of my wife’s doing. We are currently all but income-less right now.
We’ve been hitting the support groups for older people looking for work or looking tomre-enter the workplace, and it’s not exactly encouraging. When you’re 60, age is definitely held against you, no matter your qualifications.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:56 PM on March 24, 2018 [16 favorites]
Is any layoff really that transparent? Most layoffs I’ve been a party to are like UFO abductions, here one moment, gone the next.
I survived a long march layoff that took over a year to get the company from somewhere around 1,000 to well under 300. By the time it was over you just sort of took it for granted that someone was gonna be gone each month. After the first few months, we all figured out that management didn't understand how rapidly dot com ad revenue was evaporating. After a quarter of "okay, these two or three but NO MORE," management just stopped saying anything about it.
I fell into a monthly ritual with my boss, who'd call around 7 on some day or another and start the conversation with "well, I've gotta let someone go." Each time, I thought he meant me. Then he'd say, "I'm gonna pick so-and-so" and then I'd say, "ouch, he's a pretty steady guy," trying to not sound too relieved and also desperately trying to understand why this particular guy this particular month, and he'd give some reason. He rationalized the next-to-last one of the layoffs in our 15-person group with "I called him yesterday and he didn't pick up until the fifth ring. You can't tell me he was at his desk."
Then they got tired of the gossipy industry sites saying they were laying people off and they just started making up reasons to do it for cause, meaning these online media people were being turned out without even an "eligible for rehire" reference from the company (which forbade us to provide personal references for our former colleagues, on pain of termination if that made the company's life harder by encouraging litigation or whatever).
So, for me that one was less "UFO abductions" and more "Aliens."
The next time they did it, yeah ... they'd sort of absorbed the lessons of that old story about the guy who couldn't bring himself to cut off his dog's diseased tail, so he sliced it off one tiny bit at a time: It was like the Rapture.
The one good part of surviving that horrible year was that it taught me how much of a non-existence it is to cling desperately to a job when people are getting dropped all around you. By the time it was over, all I knew how to do was cling. Pick up three more sites? Sure. Better than the alternative. Go for nine months without a single day off, including weekends, that didn't involve at least a few hours of work? Well, look at poor "Fifth-Ring John." Before those layoffs, I thought it was enough to not be carried out. Now I know there are a few ways to walk out, too. If shit gets weird now—and it has a few times since the dotcom bust—I write "It is time to go" on an index card, sign it and date it, and pin it up where I can see it when I sit down to work in the morning.
On age, I work with people who talk about their ability to "pass" as younger. Some women I know dye their hair, and it's sort of a big deal to them when they decide to stop and start showing their natural gray. A job coach and a recruiter have both told me I've got a weird buffer against being judged for my age: I sound young on phone calls—great for getting past that initial phone screen—and I didn't get started in my current career until I was in my early 30s. So if I drop the years I attended college off my resume, I look about ten years younger on paper than I am. The casual, conversational way they've talked to me about these "advantages" tells me all I need to know about where the industry's heart is, deliberately ageist management strategy or not.
posted by mph at 3:07 PM on March 24, 2018 [20 favorites]
I survived a long march layoff that took over a year to get the company from somewhere around 1,000 to well under 300. By the time it was over you just sort of took it for granted that someone was gonna be gone each month. After the first few months, we all figured out that management didn't understand how rapidly dot com ad revenue was evaporating. After a quarter of "okay, these two or three but NO MORE," management just stopped saying anything about it.
I fell into a monthly ritual with my boss, who'd call around 7 on some day or another and start the conversation with "well, I've gotta let someone go." Each time, I thought he meant me. Then he'd say, "I'm gonna pick so-and-so" and then I'd say, "ouch, he's a pretty steady guy," trying to not sound too relieved and also desperately trying to understand why this particular guy this particular month, and he'd give some reason. He rationalized the next-to-last one of the layoffs in our 15-person group with "I called him yesterday and he didn't pick up until the fifth ring. You can't tell me he was at his desk."
Then they got tired of the gossipy industry sites saying they were laying people off and they just started making up reasons to do it for cause, meaning these online media people were being turned out without even an "eligible for rehire" reference from the company (which forbade us to provide personal references for our former colleagues, on pain of termination if that made the company's life harder by encouraging litigation or whatever).
So, for me that one was less "UFO abductions" and more "Aliens."
The next time they did it, yeah ... they'd sort of absorbed the lessons of that old story about the guy who couldn't bring himself to cut off his dog's diseased tail, so he sliced it off one tiny bit at a time: It was like the Rapture.
The one good part of surviving that horrible year was that it taught me how much of a non-existence it is to cling desperately to a job when people are getting dropped all around you. By the time it was over, all I knew how to do was cling. Pick up three more sites? Sure. Better than the alternative. Go for nine months without a single day off, including weekends, that didn't involve at least a few hours of work? Well, look at poor "Fifth-Ring John." Before those layoffs, I thought it was enough to not be carried out. Now I know there are a few ways to walk out, too. If shit gets weird now—and it has a few times since the dotcom bust—I write "It is time to go" on an index card, sign it and date it, and pin it up where I can see it when I sit down to work in the morning.
On age, I work with people who talk about their ability to "pass" as younger. Some women I know dye their hair, and it's sort of a big deal to them when they decide to stop and start showing their natural gray. A job coach and a recruiter have both told me I've got a weird buffer against being judged for my age: I sound young on phone calls—great for getting past that initial phone screen—and I didn't get started in my current career until I was in my early 30s. So if I drop the years I attended college off my resume, I look about ten years younger on paper than I am. The casual, conversational way they've talked to me about these "advantages" tells me all I need to know about where the industry's heart is, deliberately ageist management strategy or not.
posted by mph at 3:07 PM on March 24, 2018 [20 favorites]
and that tactic of firing experienced and capable employees in a knowledge-based industry resulted in their stock down 28% over the past 5 years (compared with competitor Accenture up 94% over the same period)
There are multiple reasons why IBM is going broke , the cyclical lay offs were generally a response to bad numbers, not necessarily a driver of them.
For drivers, look at an overreliance on a shrinking services sector; inability to compete on outsourcing, cloud and hardware based on price when up against HCL/TCS for outsourcing, Amazon Google etc for cloud, and innumerable identical blade server providers.
Th company has been trying to make the pivot to a software business - which by nature has hardly any employees - for about a decade now, I'd say. But there's a balancing act there because it's still dependent on big servicing contracts (which are going the way of the dodo). Terrible leadership under Palmisano also drove a lot. All he cared about was boosting the share price to get his bonus, and imho his actions did irreparable damage to the long term health of the company.
posted by smoke at 3:10 PM on March 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
There are multiple reasons why IBM is going broke , the cyclical lay offs were generally a response to bad numbers, not necessarily a driver of them.
For drivers, look at an overreliance on a shrinking services sector; inability to compete on outsourcing, cloud and hardware based on price when up against HCL/TCS for outsourcing, Amazon Google etc for cloud, and innumerable identical blade server providers.
Th company has been trying to make the pivot to a software business - which by nature has hardly any employees - for about a decade now, I'd say. But there's a balancing act there because it's still dependent on big servicing contracts (which are going the way of the dodo). Terrible leadership under Palmisano also drove a lot. All he cared about was boosting the share price to get his bonus, and imho his actions did irreparable damage to the long term health of the company.
posted by smoke at 3:10 PM on March 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
All he cared about was boosting the share price to get his bonus
This is American managerial excellence in a nutshell.
posted by aramaic at 3:14 PM on March 24, 2018 [21 favorites]
This is American managerial excellence in a nutshell.
posted by aramaic at 3:14 PM on March 24, 2018 [21 favorites]
Yeah, I wish they'd held on to the consumer hardware businesses.
posted by rhizome at 3:22 PM on March 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 3:22 PM on March 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
I saw it coming and got out of high tech in 2003. Age 43. I knew I had peaked in the industry.
I ended up starting a small business where I get to decide when I retire, not HR or the bean counters.
posted by surplus at 5:04 PM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
I ended up starting a small business where I get to decide when I retire, not HR or the bean counters.
posted by surplus at 5:04 PM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Reading this makes me glad I got out when I did (2006). I liked a lot about IBM as an employer, but even then you see it wasn't going to stay a good place to work.
Age discrimination is interesting. I hear all kinds of supposedly woke, interesting young people enthusiastically support companies who only hire young coworkers. "Dear Friend, Forebear and cast an eye. As you now are so once was I, As I am now, so shall ye be."
posted by frumiousb at 5:12 PM on March 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
Age discrimination is interesting. I hear all kinds of supposedly woke, interesting young people enthusiastically support companies who only hire young coworkers. "Dear Friend, Forebear and cast an eye. As you now are so once was I, As I am now, so shall ye be."
posted by frumiousb at 5:12 PM on March 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
I did a stint at IBM not long after the layoffs where everyone found out that it was no longer a job for life shop. Even then there were so many people who had worked their entire careers at IBM, and I’m not talking stagnation, I mean you could start at 18 or 21, learn, grow, advance, and come out kick ass on the other side.
No employer I’ve had since has had the same capacity to give anyone a career path. They may say they mentor or encourage development, but it’s almost always for stars, and the range is “junior dev” to “senior dev” (rarely that far), not “admin assistant or stock clerk or junior sales to VP.”
So many companies, especially in tech, have stopped training, hire from the outside, and just don’t have the long view.
posted by zippy at 5:14 PM on March 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
No employer I’ve had since has had the same capacity to give anyone a career path. They may say they mentor or encourage development, but it’s almost always for stars, and the range is “junior dev” to “senior dev” (rarely that far), not “admin assistant or stock clerk or junior sales to VP.”
So many companies, especially in tech, have stopped training, hire from the outside, and just don’t have the long view.
posted by zippy at 5:14 PM on March 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
Maybe it’s time to start a gigantic Accenture-like consulting conglomerate that specializes in people over 40. We can call it Generational Solutions. If we can’t unionize, we can definitely incorporate.
posted by Autumnheart at 5:29 PM on March 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by Autumnheart at 5:29 PM on March 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
Trust me. That mindset pre-dates Trump by decades, if not a century or so.
I know, but I wanted to encapsulate the concept with a current-day mascot for this kind of thinking.
posted by Autumnheart at 5:32 PM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
We got a meeting invite on Friday for a Technology/Engineering all hands meeting. It's scheduled for next Thursday from 4-5pm. Some of us are thinking it's going to be the post-layoff pep talk to all the remaining employees, especially since 2 major projects just got cancelled last week and some people were involuntarily shuffled around. The hiring lately has been largely younger, white, and male. I wonder if they're culling the olds. I'm a developer but I have ZERO interest in technology outside of work. I won't even date people that work in IT. I hate the culture, find it boring af, but I'm competent and it pays well. I don't want to have a personal brand, or unpaid projects outside of work. I just want to be a cog. I wish there was a way to somehow state that if i have to interview again. I know X thing, you can pay me to do X thing between the hours of 9am and 5pm M-F.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 6:39 PM on March 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 6:39 PM on March 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
I'm a developer but I have ZERO interest in technology outside of work.
Seconded, and when I was with a major US bank, and we were processing 25k tax forms a day, we still worked 8 hour days + trivial 2nd/3rd shift support. So, I've got little interest in a mismanaged workplace that can't get it done during office hours...
Unfortunately, there's scads of younglings who don't appreciate the LIFE part of the work/life balance.
posted by mikelieman at 6:51 PM on March 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Seconded, and when I was with a major US bank, and we were processing 25k tax forms a day, we still worked 8 hour days + trivial 2nd/3rd shift support. So, I've got little interest in a mismanaged workplace that can't get it done during office hours...
Unfortunately, there's scads of younglings who don't appreciate the LIFE part of the work/life balance.
posted by mikelieman at 6:51 PM on March 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Maybe it’s time to start a gigantic Accenture-like consulting conglomerate that specializes in people over 40. We can call it Generational Solutions. If we can’t unionize, we can definitely incorporate.
SIGN ME THE F. UP. I've got a NY LLC already setup, with tax collection authority and everything, that I've never had the skills to market.
posted by mikelieman at 6:53 PM on March 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
SIGN ME THE F. UP. I've got a NY LLC already setup, with tax collection authority and everything, that I've never had the skills to market.
posted by mikelieman at 6:53 PM on March 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
Unfortunately, there's scads of younglings who don't appreciate the LIFE part of the work/life balance.
I recently started a new job (software development), and it's been really interesting to see two recentish grads just casually drop something about doing various client wish-list projects over lunch/weekends/etc. I'm a bit of a go-getter, but when I do billable work, you better believe someone's paying for it. It was eye-rolling the first time, but then a bit creepy to hear it a second time from someone else in another department.
On the flip side, it's been really fantastic to see senior leadership look at those people with a look of complete confusion.
"You, uh...No. No, you need your weekends for your own. Don't do that."
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:01 PM on March 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
I recently started a new job (software development), and it's been really interesting to see two recentish grads just casually drop something about doing various client wish-list projects over lunch/weekends/etc. I'm a bit of a go-getter, but when I do billable work, you better believe someone's paying for it. It was eye-rolling the first time, but then a bit creepy to hear it a second time from someone else in another department.
On the flip side, it's been really fantastic to see senior leadership look at those people with a look of complete confusion.
"You, uh...No. No, you need your weekends for your own. Don't do that."
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:01 PM on March 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
we're hiring!
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:02 PM on March 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:02 PM on March 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
we're hiring!
Go on...
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:06 PM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Go on...
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:06 PM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Here is a counterbalancing anecdotal data point. A company I used to work for (a software/big data startup) hired an ex-IBMer around 2013. We needed someone for a senior software development role, and he ticked all the boxes. He looked great on paper and even during initial discussions, with tons of skills and achievements from his long tenure at IBM. But the second you started trying to work with him on a project, it became clear that he Could. Not. Execute.
He was openly hostile towards everyone who challenged him even slightly, and significantly raised the cortisol level of the entire office. He refused to work with me collaboratively, the way one does at a small startup (limited hierarchy, every idea is evaluated on its merits no matter where it came from, etc), insisting that all of my communication with him on work-related matters be funneled through his manager. He could churn out working code, but generally, it simply wasn’t useful, because of his inability to properly assess project requirements. On a number of occasions, I had to take over projects from him in order to get them done on time, and he probably had 5X as many years of experience! You could say that we should have provided greater oversight, in order to ensure that we ended up with useful software, but in our minds the *whole point* of hiring someone senior was to get decent quality work without much management overhead (we were spread extremely thin).
Maybe these kinds of behaviors would fly (or could be compensated-for) at a large, structured company like IBM, but it did not work out for this guy at our startup. He was gone within 6 months. Now, he was probably an extreme outlier in terms of his attitude issues. I’m not saying I think he’s representative of any type of IBMer. But I would not be surprised if some of the people that the article describes as failing to find a new job after years had similar experiences, where they did start new jobs but could not keep them, due to being too stuck in their IBM ways, and resistant to change. Their job-search issues are maybe less about lacking skills, and more about having become so rigid that adapting to a new way of thinking/working is nearly impossible. Framing this as “grays vs millennials” is pretty dumb, as people should be judged on their own merits, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the guy in my anecdote was forced out of IBM for the performance-based reasons I mentioned. Which will naturally correlate with age and years of experience.
I’m not going to extrapolate to saying anything about IBM as a whole, as I only have a few data points to go off, but I have not been impressed by what I’ve seen from ex-IBMers.
posted by mantecol at 7:09 PM on March 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
He was openly hostile towards everyone who challenged him even slightly, and significantly raised the cortisol level of the entire office. He refused to work with me collaboratively, the way one does at a small startup (limited hierarchy, every idea is evaluated on its merits no matter where it came from, etc), insisting that all of my communication with him on work-related matters be funneled through his manager. He could churn out working code, but generally, it simply wasn’t useful, because of his inability to properly assess project requirements. On a number of occasions, I had to take over projects from him in order to get them done on time, and he probably had 5X as many years of experience! You could say that we should have provided greater oversight, in order to ensure that we ended up with useful software, but in our minds the *whole point* of hiring someone senior was to get decent quality work without much management overhead (we were spread extremely thin).
Maybe these kinds of behaviors would fly (or could be compensated-for) at a large, structured company like IBM, but it did not work out for this guy at our startup. He was gone within 6 months. Now, he was probably an extreme outlier in terms of his attitude issues. I’m not saying I think he’s representative of any type of IBMer. But I would not be surprised if some of the people that the article describes as failing to find a new job after years had similar experiences, where they did start new jobs but could not keep them, due to being too stuck in their IBM ways, and resistant to change. Their job-search issues are maybe less about lacking skills, and more about having become so rigid that adapting to a new way of thinking/working is nearly impossible. Framing this as “grays vs millennials” is pretty dumb, as people should be judged on their own merits, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the guy in my anecdote was forced out of IBM for the performance-based reasons I mentioned. Which will naturally correlate with age and years of experience.
I’m not going to extrapolate to saying anything about IBM as a whole, as I only have a few data points to go off, but I have not been impressed by what I’ve seen from ex-IBMers.
posted by mantecol at 7:09 PM on March 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Go on...
Enterprise-ish development consulting in the general areas of Milwaukee and Chicago. Lot of Java, growing on the Microsoft stack. Milwaukee's looking for more entry level as I understand it, but Chicago is looking for leads and architects as well. MeFi mail for further details!
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:18 PM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Enterprise-ish development consulting in the general areas of Milwaukee and Chicago. Lot of Java, growing on the Microsoft stack. Milwaukee's looking for more entry level as I understand it, but Chicago is looking for leads and architects as well. MeFi mail for further details!
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:18 PM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
the way one does at a small startup (limited hierarchy, every idea is evaluated on its merits no matter where it came from, etc)
...But I would not be surprised if some of the people that the article describes as failing to find a new job after years had similar experiences, where they did start new jobs but could not keep them, due to being too stuck in their IBM ways, and resistant to change
Were you Agile? I think I'm getting hives.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:28 PM on March 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
...But I would not be surprised if some of the people that the article describes as failing to find a new job after years had similar experiences, where they did start new jobs but could not keep them, due to being too stuck in their IBM ways, and resistant to change
Were you Agile? I think I'm getting hives.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:28 PM on March 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm helping with hiring like mad, too. It's not IT, and it's entry level, but it's something. Federal government benefits. We made somewhere between 15 and 35 job offers last week at a job fair. (Out of thousands, so not just any warm body, but age is not a factor.)
posted by ctmf at 7:33 PM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by ctmf at 7:33 PM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Were you Agile? I think I'm getting hives.
Startup life definitely wasn’t comfortable, but I can deal with piles of work (automation is key). The worst experiences I had during those years all fell under the umbrella of rude and unprofessional treatment from older workers who thought they knew best due to their years of experience and would go haywire if they felt challenged by someone less experienced. It was only a handful of people (vs many wonderful older workers who I had great working relationships with), and before taking action their managers took great care to make sure they were really the problem, but that was always the inevitable conclusion when it became obvious that they had developed intractable conflicts with everyone around them. The world of work is changing. I know I’ll eventually lament it, but for now I’m just calling it like I see it and trying to keep myself relevant.
posted by mantecol at 7:46 PM on March 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Startup life definitely wasn’t comfortable, but I can deal with piles of work (automation is key). The worst experiences I had during those years all fell under the umbrella of rude and unprofessional treatment from older workers who thought they knew best due to their years of experience and would go haywire if they felt challenged by someone less experienced. It was only a handful of people (vs many wonderful older workers who I had great working relationships with), and before taking action their managers took great care to make sure they were really the problem, but that was always the inevitable conclusion when it became obvious that they had developed intractable conflicts with everyone around them. The world of work is changing. I know I’ll eventually lament it, but for now I’m just calling it like I see it and trying to keep myself relevant.
posted by mantecol at 7:46 PM on March 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
IBM is not the only tech company doing this. Just about all of my friends at Intel who are over 50 have been offered compulsory "voluntary retirement" packages. The retirement packages are reasonably generous, but there is a strongly implied threat of "take the money now, or be kicked out with nothing in a few months".
This of course, is a good way for the company to forget its institutional memory. I'm seeing reports and rumors that Intel is having a much harder time than the competition in getting newer semiconductor technology process nodes into production. I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
posted by monotreme at 8:03 PM on March 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
This of course, is a good way for the company to forget its institutional memory. I'm seeing reports and rumors that Intel is having a much harder time than the competition in getting newer semiconductor technology process nodes into production. I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
posted by monotreme at 8:03 PM on March 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
SIGN ME THE F. UP. I've got a NY LLC already setup, with tax collection authority and everything, that I've never had the skills to market.
Hey, I work in marketing and e-commerce. I have a friend who left his position as a VP at an creative development agency to go into consulting. See, this could be a thing.
posted by Autumnheart at 8:20 PM on March 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
Maybe these kinds of behaviors would fly (or could be compensated-for) at a large, structured company like IBM, but it did not work out for this guy at our startup. He was gone within 6 months. Now, he was probably an extreme outlier in terms of his attitude issues. I’m not saying I think he’s representative of any type of IBMer. But I would not be surprised if some of the people that the article describes as failing to find a new job after years had similar experiences, where they did start new jobs but could not keep them, due to being too stuck in their IBM ways, and resistant to change. Their job-search issues are maybe less about lacking skills, and more about having become so rigid that adapting to a new way of thinking/working is nearly impossible. Framing this as “grays vs millennials” is pretty dumb, as people should be judged on their own merits, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the guy in my anecdote was forced out of IBM for the performance-based reasons I mentioned. Which will naturally correlate with age and years of experience.
"Just-World Hypothesis.... The idea that people need to believe one will get what one deserves so strongly that they will rationalize an inexplicable injustice by naming things the victim might have done to deserve it. Also known as blaming the victim, the just-world fallacy, and the just-world effect."
One anecdote does not extend itself to a blanket statement about older workers who can't find jobs. They aren't all magically rigid (something which does not attach particularly to age, in my experience). There is a structural bias against older workers, and is excused by this kind of anecdata which could really be applied to anyone/any age.
posted by frumiousb at 8:41 PM on March 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
"Just-World Hypothesis.... The idea that people need to believe one will get what one deserves so strongly that they will rationalize an inexplicable injustice by naming things the victim might have done to deserve it. Also known as blaming the victim, the just-world fallacy, and the just-world effect."
One anecdote does not extend itself to a blanket statement about older workers who can't find jobs. They aren't all magically rigid (something which does not attach particularly to age, in my experience). There is a structural bias against older workers, and is excused by this kind of anecdata which could really be applied to anyone/any age.
posted by frumiousb at 8:41 PM on March 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
Maybe IBM fucked him over and he was still a little pissed about it.
posted by rhizome at 9:08 PM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 9:08 PM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
This whole thing just made me very, very angry.
Coincidentally, I was talking to a friend of mine who currently works at Another Big Name Tech Company. Both of us look like we're in our 20's when we're ...older than that, and she said that at work she pretends to be 27. Someone said they should celebrate together when they hit their 30th birthdays and ...she kept quiet.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:16 PM on March 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
Coincidentally, I was talking to a friend of mine who currently works at Another Big Name Tech Company. Both of us look like we're in our 20's when we're ...older than that, and she said that at work she pretends to be 27. Someone said they should celebrate together when they hit their 30th birthdays and ...she kept quiet.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:16 PM on March 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
You know it's out of hand when they start not even remembering they're supposed to make up some other excuse.
To be fair, that case reads like a law professor took the principle, then stretched it hypothetically to extremes to see if you'll crack. Dude's over 70.
posted by ctmf at 10:33 PM on March 24, 2018
To be fair, that case reads like a law professor took the principle, then stretched it hypothetically to extremes to see if you'll crack. Dude's over 70.
posted by ctmf at 10:33 PM on March 24, 2018
I'm reading this thread but have nothing else to add right now. However, since people are mentioning job openings, my employer is still looking for a highly skilled C++/Java developer. It's in Ottawa but if you can get there, it's a pretty good place to work. Great work-life balance, a "fun" workplace that is not the opposite of fun, the people are generally nice.
MeFi mail me if you're interested.
posted by suetanvil at 10:54 PM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
MeFi mail me if you're interested.
posted by suetanvil at 10:54 PM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I'm in for fully automated generational mefi consulting co. Holler if you need a writer, project manager and cat herder.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 11:20 PM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 11:20 PM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
One anecdote does not extend itself to a blanket statement about older workers who can't find jobs. They aren't all magically rigid (something which does not attach particularly to age, in my experience). There is a structural bias against older workers, and is excused by this kind of anecdata which could really be applied to anyone/any age.
In kindergarten they graded us on "Works and plays well with others", which I think should be part of every evaluation, everywhere.
Because some people need some real help in that category...
Yeah, I'm in for fully automated generational mefi consulting co. Holler if you need a writer, project manager and cat herder.
I second this name. Is this something the MeFi projects is for? Slack? Man, do I miss Google Wave right about now...
posted by mikelieman at 3:21 AM on March 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
In kindergarten they graded us on "Works and plays well with others", which I think should be part of every evaluation, everywhere.
Because some people need some real help in that category...
Yeah, I'm in for fully automated generational mefi consulting co. Holler if you need a writer, project manager and cat herder.
I second this name. Is this something the MeFi projects is for? Slack? Man, do I miss Google Wave right about now...
posted by mikelieman at 3:21 AM on March 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
No one at work knows my age. My salary right now is slightly more than half of what I was making back when the Big C laid me off in 2010, but hey, it's a salary. Even if it's just phone support for 3D printers, it's money coming in. (They lowballed me but at the time I was in a 'unemployed almost a year, I'll take damn near anything' state.)
I'm going to be 50 this year. Grey starting to show, my voice is getting some of the old man rasp to it, and I need a cane to get around farther than the bathroom in the office.
This is probably not going to end well for me.
If you know of a decent support position that pays close to industry average in the greater NY area please let me know, I've got a wife to help.
posted by mephron at 4:47 AM on March 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm going to be 50 this year. Grey starting to show, my voice is getting some of the old man rasp to it, and I need a cane to get around farther than the bathroom in the office.
This is probably not going to end well for me.
If you know of a decent support position that pays close to industry average in the greater NY area please let me know, I've got a wife to help.
posted by mephron at 4:47 AM on March 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
I have to quibble about #1 in the list, because women and POC are routinely forced out and/or not hired in the first place, and it has yet to be a BFD on any level.
posted by Autumnheart at 7:36 AM on March 25, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Autumnheart at 7:36 AM on March 25, 2018 [8 favorites]
IBM promised a job for life and then pulled the rug out from under these workers.
The absolute worst thing about IBM is that they systematically put their huge development centers in smaller cities, so they could pay lower salaries. So you can't build a network, and you can't learn new skills outside of work, and your spouse probably can't find a job, so you're 100% dependent on the good grace of IBM. It's very different from bigger cities where there are a variety of tech companies and you can easily move between them if you have the skills, and your spouse has a decent chance of being employed too so you're not totally dependent on one income.
posted by miyabo at 11:06 AM on March 25, 2018 [5 favorites]
The absolute worst thing about IBM is that they systematically put their huge development centers in smaller cities, so they could pay lower salaries. So you can't build a network, and you can't learn new skills outside of work, and your spouse probably can't find a job, so you're 100% dependent on the good grace of IBM. It's very different from bigger cities where there are a variety of tech companies and you can easily move between them if you have the skills, and your spouse has a decent chance of being employed too so you're not totally dependent on one income.
posted by miyabo at 11:06 AM on March 25, 2018 [5 favorites]
IBM promised a job for life and then pulled the rug out from under these workers.
I recall that we were told (~1973) that this was not a guarantee, but it was a tradition. It was certainly stated that way by the mid-late 80's. That said, I did witness a lot of rug-pulling. A close associate started a year and a half after me and did not make the pension cut-off after working 20+ years. Not much time left to build a retirement plan. I saw a lot of older folks lose their jobs, but it didn't seem to be age-related back then- more department-related.
The absolute worst thing about IBM is that they systematically put their huge development centers in smaller cities, so they could pay lower salaries.
I think they put centers where land (and yes, salaries) was cheap. San Jose, for example, was not all that big in the 50's, and there seem to be networking opportunities there now.
RTP in NC was probably cheap when IBM got there in the 60's. I recall software support in Tampa, which is kind of a big city... and Toronto as well as others.
posted by MtDewd at 4:01 PM on March 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
I recall that we were told (~1973) that this was not a guarantee, but it was a tradition. It was certainly stated that way by the mid-late 80's. That said, I did witness a lot of rug-pulling. A close associate started a year and a half after me and did not make the pension cut-off after working 20+ years. Not much time left to build a retirement plan. I saw a lot of older folks lose their jobs, but it didn't seem to be age-related back then- more department-related.
The absolute worst thing about IBM is that they systematically put their huge development centers in smaller cities, so they could pay lower salaries.
I think they put centers where land (and yes, salaries) was cheap. San Jose, for example, was not all that big in the 50's, and there seem to be networking opportunities there now.
RTP in NC was probably cheap when IBM got there in the 60's. I recall software support in Tampa, which is kind of a big city... and Toronto as well as others.
posted by MtDewd at 4:01 PM on March 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
The absolute worst thing about IBM is that they systematically put their huge development centers in smaller cities... your spouse probably can't find a job
This always seemed to me like a back-door way of hiring workers who don't have family caretaking responsibilities.
posted by Ralston McTodd at 5:21 PM on March 25, 2018
This always seemed to me like a back-door way of hiring workers who don't have family caretaking responsibilities.
posted by Ralston McTodd at 5:21 PM on March 25, 2018
Those huge development centers were usually paired with huge manufacturing centers. Computers were physically large with multiple I/O devices, banks of tape and disk drives, and power and cooling units all connected by dozens of thick cables. All this had to be built in large factories. IBM had thousands of people in manufacturing. They were well paid and had excellent benefits.
Most of those jobs are gone now.
posted by leaper at 6:20 PM on March 25, 2018
Most of those jobs are gone now.
posted by leaper at 6:20 PM on March 25, 2018
Unfortunately, there's scads of younglings who don't appreciate the LIFE part of the work/life balance.
And equally unfortunately, there's scads of oldsters with the exact same problem. Wtf is wrong with all these old people managers trying to contact me on a Saturday or Sunday, or saying they're sure nobody will mind the sudden ad-hoc on-call requirement for this weekend? I'm lucky that I'm better at my job than they are at theirs, so I feel perfectly safe in pretending I didn't see any of that, but my last manager - jesus christ stop messaging me from your stupid family vacation in Mexico, seriously?
posted by the agents of KAOS at 9:02 PM on March 25, 2018 [6 favorites]
And equally unfortunately, there's scads of oldsters with the exact same problem. Wtf is wrong with all these old people managers trying to contact me on a Saturday or Sunday, or saying they're sure nobody will mind the sudden ad-hoc on-call requirement for this weekend? I'm lucky that I'm better at my job than they are at theirs, so I feel perfectly safe in pretending I didn't see any of that, but my last manager - jesus christ stop messaging me from your stupid family vacation in Mexico, seriously?
posted by the agents of KAOS at 9:02 PM on March 25, 2018 [6 favorites]
This entire discussion is making me hyperventilate.
Old/tech (hardware)/woman/pissed off
posted by blurker at 11:28 AM on March 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Old/tech (hardware)/woman/pissed off
posted by blurker at 11:28 AM on March 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
If you are going to get laid off, it's better to be in one of the early rounds when they still give severance. I survived five or six rounds of layoffs, only to get whacked the day they let go 95% of the remaining workers. We got paid through the end of the day, and medical insurance for the five remaining days in the month. My friends who got hit in the prior rounds, got paid for a couple months beyond what I did.
posted by elizilla at 11:42 AM on March 26, 2018
posted by elizilla at 11:42 AM on March 26, 2018
Yeah, I got cut in the very first round of Sun layoffs back in the day, and I got paid for something like 8 weeks more and a chunk of severance on top of that... and I had only been a direct Sun employee for a few months at the time! Having only recently been converted from contractor. Things were far less remunerative as the years went on.
posted by tavella at 2:43 PM on March 26, 2018
posted by tavella at 2:43 PM on March 26, 2018
I am grateful I got my 30 years in and got the pension I was promised. I did not really want to leave IBM, but it didn't seem safe to stay. (And this was 15 years ago...)
I've actually got a pension from IBM even though I was only a direct employee for six years. It's going to give me a whole $375 a month when I'm 65 but I guess that's a couple nice dinners.
posted by octothorpe at 5:39 PM on March 26, 2018
I've actually got a pension from IBM even though I was only a direct employee for six years. It's going to give me a whole $375 a month when I'm 65 but I guess that's a couple nice dinners.
posted by octothorpe at 5:39 PM on March 26, 2018
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posted by Autumnheart at 10:48 AM on March 24, 2018 [71 favorites]