Comments on: Comments on 17355

Post number 17355

apostasy — Fri, 24 May 2002 02:04:52 -0800

While I find our national addiction a great deal of fun and a personal necessity, I do start to wonder sometimes...

By: dash_slot-

dash_slot- — Fri, 24 May 2002 02:23:33 -0800

What do they know that we don't, hmm?

By: niceness

niceness — Fri, 24 May 2002 02:37:22 -0800

Regular occurence on Metafilter: bad tempered post followed by an apology and lack of caffeine offered as an excuse.

By: pracowity

pracowity — Fri, 24 May 2002 02:52:46 -0800

> What do they know that we don't, hmm? Presumably, they know Swedish or Belgiumese* and how to wake up in the morning without using chemical stimulants, which are things you might not know. * Actually, that's French or Dutch or German or Zulu, depending on which part of Belgium they're from.

By: apostasy

apostasy — Fri, 24 May 2002 03:42:27 -0800

niceness: F*ck off. Oh wait... <slurp> Sorry 'bout that.

By: niceness

niceness — Fri, 24 May 2002 04:58:17 -0800

apostasy: "Hey man, (exhales) whatever" Caffeine is not my drug of choice

By: brucec

brucec — Fri, 24 May 2002 04:58:38 -0800

I can see the future....the Federal Government sues Starbucks and the Big Coffee Companies for the evils that they have done in creating a nation of addicts

By: password

password — Fri, 24 May 2002 05:49:32 -0800

Exactly, brucec. I didn't know it was bad for me either. Now can I have my check for $1,000,000?

By: password

password — Fri, 24 May 2002 06:48:00 -0800

Side track on the litigation thang.

By: ook

ook — Fri, 24 May 2002 06:52:12 -0800

The NY Times Book Review had a wonderful piece a while back that basically blamed the entire industrial age on coffee. Essentially, it called modernity the transition between the era when people were basically drunk all the time -- among the examples cited were a recipe for "beer soup", a popular breakfast in Germany -- to the era when people were basically hopped up on caffeine all the time. Marxism, capitalism, mass production, all the result of jittery people talking philosophy in coffee houses instead of being slumped over their drinks in the tavern. Interesting theory. I'd go look for the article, but I haven't had my cuppa yet, so can't be bothered.

By: clango

clango — Fri, 24 May 2002 07:03:13 -0800

i'll take the jitters any day of the week.

By: groundhog

groundhog — Fri, 24 May 2002 07:09:40 -0800

I believe that there's a basic principle of chemo-economics that if a substance exists, it will eventually be mixed with soap and sold for an outrageous price. Marketing tip: stick a piece of string in it and sell it as Dope-on-a-Rope.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Fri, 24 May 2002 07:10:23 -0800

I drink about one cup of coffee every month or two, because I WANT it, not because I NEED it. I would be ashamed to have to admit that I needed an externally-administered chemical to function every day. It never ceases to astound me how some people wave their dependencies proudly, like badges of honor, rather than weakness.

By: adampsyche

adampsyche — Fri, 24 May 2002 07:31:59 -0800

I drink about one cup of coffee every hour or two, because I WANT it, not because I NEED it. Wait a minute... Does that make one dependent? Don't answer: however, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders has criteria for which you can determine if you are addicted to caffeine. A few scientists cast doubt on this a few years ago. Ineedcoffee.com has a detox program you can try "to see if you are addicted to coffee."

By: password

password — Fri, 24 May 2002 07:47:10 -0800

It never ceases to astound me how some people wave their dependencies proudly, like badges of honor, rather than weakness. Would lacking a sense of humor be counted as a weakness? I drink coffee because I don't WANT to have splitting headaches when I don't. It's not that I NEED it. I do NEED this though.

By: niceness

niceness — Fri, 24 May 2002 07:48:29 -0800

I would be ashamed to have to admit that I needed an externally-administered chemical to function every day. It never ceases to astound me how some people wave their dependencies proudly, like badges of honor, rather than weakness. Agreed but it's doubly sad when it's coffee - what a shit drug to be addicted to, only tobacco gives you less.

By: apostasy

apostasy — Fri, 24 May 2002 08:23:52 -0800

I assume this is the point where rush apologizes for his post and blames it on his monthly coffee fix? It is an imperfection to be dependent on a chemical. As I am an imperfect being, however, I choose to snicker at my failings and keep my blood pressure in manageable territory (made more difficult, no doubt, by the IV drip of trimethylxanthine). I hope one day to be free of the vile scourge that mocks my adenosine love canals. I hope also to Run a 5am Mile, Master the Oven, and turn off the Damned Ballgame. Until I am perfect, however, I laugh. niceness: You were warned not to smoke the grounds.

By: adampsyche

adampsyche — Fri, 24 May 2002 08:26:24 -0800

Is there a caffeine IV drip yet?

By: straight

straight — Fri, 24 May 2002 08:28:37 -0800

I would be ashamed to have to admit that I needed an externally-administered chemical to function every day. It never ceases to astound me how some people wave their dependencies proudly, like badges of honor, rather than weakness. Yeah, all those pathetic people addicted to glucose, sucrose, various amino acids, oxygen, dihydrogen monoxide. And to think some people are even *proud* they eat breakfast every day. Not to mention those pathetic "Breathe" bumper stickers.

By: apostasy

apostasy — Fri, 24 May 2002 08:33:28 -0800

adam: Yes, but you're too old.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Fri, 24 May 2002 08:47:58 -0800

I drink coffee because I don't WANT to have splitting headaches when I don't. And you don't find having altered your body chemistry to the point that you suffer physically if you don't feed your addiction to be problematic? Interesting.... (Note to clarify the above: It is not normal to have "splitting headaches" without dosing oneself with caffeine.)

By: jjg

jjg — Fri, 24 May 2002 08:48:47 -0800

And here I thought television was our national addiction.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Fri, 24 May 2002 08:51:48 -0800

As I am an imperfect being, however, I choose to snicker at my failings Yes, you keep snickering. Some of us prefer to try to improve ourselves by addressing our shortcomings as we become aware of them. No one (but you) is talking about "perfection"--that's a false dichotomy. Since the categories of "better" and "worse" DO exist (and are often clearly demonstrable), it is meaningless and disingenuous to excuse all of one's bad habits and behaviors because of the impossibility of achieving some sort of hypothetical "perfection."

By: rushmc

rushmc — Fri, 24 May 2002 08:54:36 -0800

Would lacking a sense of humor be counted as a weakness? Show me how a bunch of people collaborating to pretend that it is normal, healthy, and somehow "cool" to require a non-essential and often harmful stimulant for normal functioning and I may laugh.

By: Skot

Skot — Fri, 24 May 2002 09:01:24 -0800

That's four, count 'em, four posts in this thread that rushmc has furnished us with to make sure we are aware that he is just working every moment to make sure that he's a better person (than you). Hey, rush? You don't drink coffee. We get it! You are now officially the most amazing person I never want to know.

By: password

password — Fri, 24 May 2002 09:06:13 -0800

It's not *essential*, it's a tool. If I, or anyone else wants to stop drinking coffee, they can do just that. They won't die, they'll just be in a bad mood for 2 days. $Addiction != $Requirement; if (!$Caffine) { $Life != 0; }

By: apostasy

apostasy — Fri, 24 May 2002 09:25:33 -0800

Obviously I did not make myself clear. While I work to address my failings, at least those that bother me, I am also aware of my ineptitude at self-improvement; a normal human fallibility. I would like to be free of caffeine, in theory (abstinence, Lord, just not yet), but right now I'm not. I am, sadly, still a collaborator in this sad spectacle. Of course I wish to become "better", but the path to improvement is littered with failures and broken-down nags. The human condition is to fall, and stand aright, and fall again, and stand again, always staggering towards the light. And I point at myself and laugh because I am still flawed (though I'm getting better) and because, quite frankly, I have better things to do with my time than worry whether that last Pepsi ruined my ascetic dreams. Like focus on my crippling emotional pain.

By: groundhog

groundhog — Fri, 24 May 2002 09:29:32 -0800

Hey, rush? You don't drink coffee Maybe it didn't give him enough of a rush.

By: mdn

mdn — Fri, 24 May 2002 09:52:23 -0800

It's called self-deprecating (or self-depreciating, if you're british) humor, rushmc. Part of what makes it appealing is that in a sense it's a strength to be able to admit to your weaknesses. We certainly all fail in various ways, and revealing some of the small ways in which we're not perfect in a light-hearted manner is a way to open yourself to others. Even if you were perfect, you wouldn't be, because humans can't relate to perfection and we'd consider you a cold judgmental robot-snob.

By: acridrabbit

acridrabbit — Fri, 24 May 2002 10:12:22 -0800

"I'm sick and tired of listening to everyone complain!" "He's complaining about complaining!" - Too Much Coffee Man

By: rushmc

rushmc — Fri, 24 May 2002 11:00:01 -0800

he is just working every moment to make sure that he's a better person (than you). ::: points to the place where skot's insecurities caused him to make an erroneous logical leap and move from truth to falsehood :::

By: rushmc

rushmc — Fri, 24 May 2002 11:01:25 -0800

If I, or anyone else wants to stop drinking coffee, they can do just that. I submit apostasy's post just below yours as counter-evidence.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Fri, 24 May 2002 11:02:48 -0800

The human condition is to fall, and stand aright, and fall again, and stand again, always staggering towards the light. That may be YOUR condition, but you are not justified in generalizing it to all of humanity. Not only do I not recognize such a pattern, it turns my stomach.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Fri, 24 May 2002 11:04:36 -0800

Part of what makes it appealing is that in a sense it's a strength to be able to admit to your weaknesses. Admitting one's weaknesses is one thing; embracing, defending, and revelling in them, quite another.

By: vacapinta

vacapinta — Fri, 24 May 2002 11:44:41 -0800

rush, I think you forgot to address a phrase: in a light-hearted manner This is more serious to you, apparently, than it is to anybody else. Some of us prefer to try to improve ourselves by addressing our shortcomings as we become aware of them Yes, some of us do. To each his own. I have beat back several addictions, including coffee and I am proud of myself for having done so. But, that doesnt, for a moment, make me believe that I can try or should try to shame other people in to doing the same. Nor does seeing what I do regard as my former weaknesses in others "turn my stomach." If you are trying to lead by example, that particular phrase does not make for a great pedagogical tactic.

By: Mars Saxman

Mars Saxman — Fri, 24 May 2002 12:04:26 -0800

Why is caffeine a moral issue? It's a chemical. It does certain things to your body. You can learn how it works and then use it to change your body's state. Addiction, in this case, means that your body adjusts to the chemical's presence and takes time to adjust to its absence. Where's the "weakness", the "falling"? It's so.... Puritan. Yuck. -Mars

By: apostasy

apostasy — Fri, 24 May 2002 12:08:33 -0800

If I, or anyone else wants to stop drinking coffee, they can do just that. I submit apostasy's post just below yours as counter-evidence. What was that about erroneous logical leaps again? Look, rush, caffeine addiction is so often treated in such a flippant manner because it isn't taken seriously as an addiction (for better or for worse). If I describe myself as a caffeine addict, I do so with tongue, tonsil and thorax in cheek. Most, I suspect, would respond in similar fashion. We make light of it because we don't consider it an issue requiring much attention. It is a flaw, yes. So is my penchant for rooting for the Blue Jays, but they are minor flaws and there are more important elements of self-improvement to be attended to. And, since you've expressed concern for my well-being (which I appreciate), yes, I can quit, and have done so previously for extended periods of time. I can quit reading MeFi, as well, but they both are pleasurable and low-impact, so I continue each. That may be YOUR condition, but you are not justified in generalizing it to all of humanity. Not only do I not recognize such a pattern, it turns my stomach. The pattern I describe is a simple and time-honored one. If you fail, get up and continue. You will fail, you must continue. I fail to see the stomach-churning element. Admitting one's weaknesses is one thing; embracing, defending, and revelling in them, quite another. Quite. I don't disagree. And it is a perfectly legitimate debate to have as to whether embracing and poking fun at caffeine addiction is a problem to be addressed, or harmless self-deprecation. You're welcome to argue that it's problematic and an evasion of a real problem. Others are welcome to argue that it good clean fun without dangers. I have my concerns with the culture of caffeine glorification, but they are minimal. I intend on putting my consumption to rest in the future, but I also intend on enjoying myself.

By: apostasy

apostasy — Fri, 24 May 2002 12:38:17 -0800

btw: I believe ook was referring to this book. Not sure where the review he mentions is from, though I remember reading it. Interesting stuff.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Fri, 24 May 2002 13:05:14 -0800

Nor does seeing what I do regard as my former weaknesses in others "turn my stomach." As I have explained, it is not the "weakness" that I was referring to there but rather the happy happy, joy joy "embracing, defending, and revelling" in it. This is more serious to you, apparently, than it is to anybody else. What is serious to me is not the problem some people have with caffeine abuse/addiction--unlike smoking, when others abuse caffeine as a stimulant, the direct effects upon me are minimal, consisting mainly of resultant changes in their behavior--but rather their denial and hypocrisy over the issue, the pretense that they perceive it as a problem without taking any of the actions that one would take if one perceived it to really BE a problem.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Fri, 24 May 2002 13:08:39 -0800

caffeine addiction is so often treated in such a flippant manner because it isn't taken seriously as an addiction (for better or for worse). Or as a serious health hazard. Which is my point exactly. And it is a perfectly legitimate debate to have as to whether embracing and poking fun at caffeine addiction is a problem to be addressed, or harmless self-deprecation. Good, glad you agree. Some, it would seem, are unwilling to admit to this when their sacred cow is questioned.

By: ook

ook — Fri, 24 May 2002 13:12:21 -0800

apostasy: that's the one. Thanks for the research... that was one of those books where I read the review, thought hmm, gotta buy that one someday, then promptly forgot author and title. rushmc: you sound a little tense. Have a cup of joe: it perks you up while it calms you down!

By: mdn

mdn — Sat, 25 May 2002 10:10:13 -0800

While looking for other info, I came across this page about caffeine. There are a bunch of links at the bottom, too - the How Stuff Works page on it is pretty bleak. Mars, I liked your post. Admitting one's weaknesses is one thing; embracing, defending, and revelling in them, quite another. I think you're failing to see the humor aspect still. Sugar, fat, even cooked foods have been shown to be harmful. They also have benefits. Like Mars said, you learn how something affects you and you make decisions about how to use it. I really don't care if you/ some portion of humankind see me as weak for enjoying a couple cups of coffee and the occasional chocolate bar. I'm concerned with being happy, not with having no weaknesses. Perhaps for you, fulfillment is found directly in eradicating your weaknesses, but that isn't so for everyone. Personally I would like to rid myself of the weaknesses which block the way to my own fulfillment, such as wasting time watching TV, or, uh, online... caffeine is not a weakness which is of great concern to me because I don't see it as keeping me from happiness.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Tue, 28 May 2002 16:07:12 -0800

caffeine is not a weakness which is of great concern to me because I don't see it as keeping me from happiness. Which may be a fairly accurate assessment, or may represent a tremendous oversight on your part.

By: mdn

mdn — Tue, 28 May 2002 20:45:59 -0800

What makes me happy is completing projects, getting ideas and expression into a finished form that I can present. This is the most constant factor that seems to fulfill me. Caffeine does not seem to keep me from such things, at least not in a significant way. As I said above, things like watching TV or wasting time playing video games are more detrimental to me, from my POV. It's possible I'm missing something, but at this point I place my 'addiction' to television as a worse problem than my 'addiction' to coffee. (I put addiction in quotes because these things, like most addictions, have definitive psychological factors. Cigarettes stop being physically addictive after about three days. After that, it's all psychological: but that doesn't mean it's easier, for most people.)