Go West to the Sunken Place.
May 2, 2018 5:53 PM Subscribe
‘I miss the old Kanye’
It's almost as if extreme wealth corrupts people.
posted by Behemoth at 6:08 PM on May 2, 2018 [54 favorites]
posted by Behemoth at 6:08 PM on May 2, 2018 [54 favorites]
So this is sort of related? But the other day I had this thought because I was irritated with people constantly referring to "complicated man" or "complex man" when they meant "oddly captivating tool". So I thought to myself, I wonder if anyone ever refers to "complicated women". And it turns out they do, but only in the context of dating them. Seriously, the first ten results are about how you should date women with agency and independent thoughts even though it's SO HARD!
Anyway. As an antidote to whatever this is, here's an interview that I listened to yesterday with Royce da 5'9'' about going to therapy while black and a bunch of other stuff. It's good!
posted by selfnoise at 6:08 PM on May 2, 2018 [13 favorites]
Anyway. As an antidote to whatever this is, here's an interview that I listened to yesterday with Royce da 5'9'' about going to therapy while black and a bunch of other stuff. It's good!
posted by selfnoise at 6:08 PM on May 2, 2018 [13 favorites]
Kanye go on Chapo!
posted by octobersurprise at 6:16 PM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 6:16 PM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
"Kanye or Jay-Z?" "Jay-Z," Obama tells Samuels. "Although I like Kanye. He's a Chicago guy. Smart. He's very talented." The reporter then asks, "Even though you called him a jackass?" referring to Obama's off-the-record comments about West that were leaked from a 2009 interview with CNBC. Obama's response: "He is a jackass. But he's talented."[via: Rolling Stone]
I tend to agree with President Obama. Talented, but a jackass. And it seems the jackass part is winning out more than the talent.
posted by Fizz at 6:18 PM on May 2, 2018 [39 favorites]
everybody look, Kanye has started the marketing campaign for his new album
wowee zowee imagine that
posted by mannequito at 6:18 PM on May 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
wowee zowee imagine that
posted by mannequito at 6:18 PM on May 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
I haven't noticed the talented part of him. Not that I try.
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:19 PM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:19 PM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
Well, as the kids say these days: woopity scoop poop.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:24 PM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:24 PM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
but.... like... it kind of does look like a sunken place?
As I recall, the sunken place was in an absolutely lovely house, and everyone involved lived in great comfort.
He is a grandiose narcissist surrounded by great wealth and, at the same time, genuinely an unwell man. People talk themselves in circles about how much to forgive men like this, and all I can hope is that they will do it less and less as the years wear on.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:30 PM on May 2, 2018 [18 favorites]
As I recall, the sunken place was in an absolutely lovely house, and everyone involved lived in great comfort.
He is a grandiose narcissist surrounded by great wealth and, at the same time, genuinely an unwell man. People talk themselves in circles about how much to forgive men like this, and all I can hope is that they will do it less and less as the years wear on.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:30 PM on May 2, 2018 [18 favorites]
I have always had the impression that Kanye West is that guy who skimmed the reading in a 200-level course about post-modernism, but was still, like really into what it was he though Debord or Foucault or whoever was saying.
So really, I guess what I'm saying is that this is Zizek's fault.
posted by phack at 6:30 PM on May 2, 2018 [17 favorites]
So really, I guess what I'm saying is that this is Zizek's fault.
posted by phack at 6:30 PM on May 2, 2018 [17 favorites]
Kanye go on Chapo!
I don't think you're doing this right
posted by atoxyl at 6:43 PM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't think you're doing this right
posted by atoxyl at 6:43 PM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
He's been acting weird since Kim was robbed in Paris.
posted by jamjam at 6:45 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by jamjam at 6:45 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
I can't say that I've ever actually listened to his music, but I skim along pop culture enough to have "followed" his career and his climb and such. I really appreciated reading this article for the deeper context it provided to me about what I already knew and new things it presented. Thanks for posting!
posted by hippybear at 6:45 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 6:45 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm mostly just tired of right-wing Kanye, already.
posted by atoxyl at 6:52 PM on May 2, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 6:52 PM on May 2, 2018 [12 favorites]
I read the article but I'm still not clear on what the difference is between The Old Kanye and The New Kanye. Admittedly I've never listened to his music, which is surely the part of the puzzle I'm missing. Like Hippybear, I mostly know about Kanye from his pop culture exploits.
Kanye has always been the kind of guy who believes it's a virtue to do or say the first thing that comes in your mind, and to never back down no matter how people react. Unsurprisingly this becomes more and more insufferable the richer and more insulated from concequences you become. I'd like to believe Kanye just knows how to brew up controversy to sell his albums, but I genuinely believe he's more honest than that.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 6:53 PM on May 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
Kanye has always been the kind of guy who believes it's a virtue to do or say the first thing that comes in your mind, and to never back down no matter how people react. Unsurprisingly this becomes more and more insufferable the richer and more insulated from concequences you become. I'd like to believe Kanye just knows how to brew up controversy to sell his albums, but I genuinely believe he's more honest than that.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 6:53 PM on May 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
Was so glad that Van Lathan let him have it.
posted by longdaysjourney at 7:15 PM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by longdaysjourney at 7:15 PM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
And it seems the jackass part is winning out more than the talent.
*sigh* It usually does.
posted by sexyrobot at 7:17 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
*sigh* It usually does.
posted by sexyrobot at 7:17 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Eagerly awaiting Kanye's remix of Roseanne's performance of the National Anthem. Not.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:19 PM on May 2, 2018
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:19 PM on May 2, 2018
This separating the art and the artist is never ending these days.
posted by unliteral at 7:28 PM on May 2, 2018
posted by unliteral at 7:28 PM on May 2, 2018
"Everybody in Hip-Hop discriminates against gay people"
- Kanye on Homophobia in Hip Hop, 2005 (cw: slurs)
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 7:29 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
- Kanye on Homophobia in Hip Hop, 2005 (cw: slurs)
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 7:29 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
People care about celebrities
posted by bookman117 at 7:41 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by bookman117 at 7:41 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
the kind of guy who believes it's a virtue to do or say the first thing that comes in your mind, and to never back down no matter how people react. Unsurprisingly this becomes more and more insufferable the richer and more insulated from concequences you become
I literally know nothing about Kanye, well, maybe a hair more than literally nothing, but this describes someone else I know far too much about
posted by mwhybark at 8:11 PM on May 2, 2018
I literally know nothing about Kanye, well, maybe a hair more than literally nothing, but this describes someone else I know far too much about
posted by mwhybark at 8:11 PM on May 2, 2018
One thing I love is when Kanye insulting Beck over him winning a Grammy over Beyonce, which resulted in this awesome mashup.
posted by 4ster at 8:17 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by 4ster at 8:17 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
selfnoise said: "So I thought to myself, I wonder if anyone ever refers to "complicated women"."
Azealia Banks?
posted by yaymukund at 8:17 PM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
Azealia Banks?
posted by yaymukund at 8:17 PM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
I see Kanye as similar to Gilbert Arenas. Arenas was an NBA player in the 2000s who was a bonafide superstar but also a little bit off kilter and just different, but in interesting ways. He was different from the other NBA stars, who were actually kind of boring because they just led regular lives outside of basketball. Arenas' antics were funny and even kind of cool until he went too far. He ended up pulling a gun on a teammate in his team's locker room. He was heavily penalized for that and it pretty much ended his time in the spotlight. And his post NBA career has been an endless stream of really bad opinions. These type of people are funny until they're not or until you find out what they really believe.
Similarly, Kanye was a guy who was a little off kilter buy always in an amusing way. People may disagree but I think his MTV stage storming stunt with Taylor Swift was kind of funny-- because award shows are dumb and a dumb guy storming the stage is funny. I was never a huge Kanye fan so I could read about the latest dumb thing he did, roll my eyes, say "That's just Kanye being Kanye" and then go on with life. But like a lot of these off kilter people who seem funny he eventually does something that's Not Cool.
I've also known people like this who seem like they're operating on another level and are amusing but at some point go too far and lose all their friends. Of course I think mental illness plays a big role in all of this-- I don't know what to say about that other than if famous musicians and athletes can't get the help they need then our country has serious issues with mental health acceptance and access.
posted by mcmile at 8:18 PM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
Similarly, Kanye was a guy who was a little off kilter buy always in an amusing way. People may disagree but I think his MTV stage storming stunt with Taylor Swift was kind of funny-- because award shows are dumb and a dumb guy storming the stage is funny. I was never a huge Kanye fan so I could read about the latest dumb thing he did, roll my eyes, say "That's just Kanye being Kanye" and then go on with life. But like a lot of these off kilter people who seem funny he eventually does something that's Not Cool.
I've also known people like this who seem like they're operating on another level and are amusing but at some point go too far and lose all their friends. Of course I think mental illness plays a big role in all of this-- I don't know what to say about that other than if famous musicians and athletes can't get the help they need then our country has serious issues with mental health acceptance and access.
posted by mcmile at 8:18 PM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
On some level, when it comes to mental health issues, you have to decide you need the help and then seek it out and continue with it.
If you're convinced you're doing okay then you won't be seeking help.
posted by hippybear at 8:20 PM on May 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
If you're convinced you're doing okay then you won't be seeking help.
posted by hippybear at 8:20 PM on May 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
This entire thing is Kanye having some sort of mental health problem, everyone freaking out about it, and it'll eventually end with Kim posting about how he's "getting the help he requires" and then a discussion about mental health that'll last momentarily.
posted by gucci mane at 8:34 PM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by gucci mane at 8:34 PM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
I read the article but I'm still not clear on what the difference is between The Old Kanye and The New Kanye. Admittedly I've never listened to his music, which is surely the part of the puzzle I'm missing. Like Hippybear, I mostly know about Kanye from his pop culture exploits.
He was never exactly consistently overtly political but he had flashes of being outspoken about racism and sympathetic to the underclass, so people didn't really expect him to turn out right-wing.
posted by atoxyl at 8:36 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
He was never exactly consistently overtly political but he had flashes of being outspoken about racism and sympathetic to the underclass, so people didn't really expect him to turn out right-wing.
posted by atoxyl at 8:36 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
he seems to be having some sort of extended manic episode
posted by ejoey at 9:02 PM on May 2, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by ejoey at 9:02 PM on May 2, 2018 [12 favorites]
He was never exactly consistently overtly political but he had flashes of being outspoken about racism and sympathetic to the underclass, so people didn't really expect him to turn out right-wing.I'll take this a step further...
Kanye, outside the music, has been kinda political, most visibly with the Grammy thing and the George Bush thing.
But his music itself has always been in your face about the politics, from literally the first song on his first album, to an album where he had tracks entitled "New Slaves" and "Black Skinhead". Not every track is political, but 'Ye has been more political than most, in small-yet-impactful ways.
It is immensely frustrating and saddening to see someone who was inspirational for myself (and many others) just become another talking head.
(And b/c this is my favorite site on the internet:
The only other musician I've seen openly parrot InfoWars is Muse's Matt Bellamy. I stopped listening to them because of that and there may be some parallels in both artists' careers pre- and post- InfoWars.... and not in a good way.)
posted by raihan_ at 9:06 PM on May 2, 2018 [15 favorites]
One cannot be too careful to avoid bearing ill will against an artist for an occasional, perhaps very unfortunate and presumptuous masquerade; let us not forget that, without exception, our dear artists are to some extent actors and have to be, and that without acting they would hardly be able to hold out very long.
posted by mr_roboto at 9:18 PM on May 2, 2018
posted by mr_roboto at 9:18 PM on May 2, 2018
I've followed Kanye's musical career for years now but hi music has always been a frustrating blend of exhilarating and infuriating. For every "Jesus Walks" or "All Falls Down" you have something like "I'm In It" (lyrics not safe for work and just lame and sexist and - yes - racist). I mean, even on individual tracks, they go from amazing to dreadful - I'm thinking "Monster" (misogynist video and again some shitty lyrics) as an example, a track completely owned by Nicki Minaj - just watch her verse because she's bad ass. But I mean that track can be amazing and then just crap within ten seconds. Or "Blood on the Leaves" where he seems to equate a divorce with lynching - with different lyrics, that song would be pretty amazing. Indeed, I thought it was pretty amazing until I actually listened to what he was saying.
Anyhow, he's a remarkable mixer and beat maker and producer. If there's a successful musician equivalent of engineer's disease, he's also got that. I mean, his first album was literally themed around dropping out of college to follow your dream. I get the sense that he's a "my ignorance is as good as your knowledge" kind of guy that thinks he knows everything because he's genuinely really, really good at a couple of things.
So, in other words, he's sort of a perfect Trump voter. Wealthy. Proud of his ignorance. More attracted to Trump's "energy" than to any of Trump's ideas (because there's no evidence he grasps Trump's ideas). Libertarian in ethos. He's one Palantir short of a Thiel.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:29 PM on May 2, 2018 [58 favorites]
Anyhow, he's a remarkable mixer and beat maker and producer. If there's a successful musician equivalent of engineer's disease, he's also got that. I mean, his first album was literally themed around dropping out of college to follow your dream. I get the sense that he's a "my ignorance is as good as your knowledge" kind of guy that thinks he knows everything because he's genuinely really, really good at a couple of things.
So, in other words, he's sort of a perfect Trump voter. Wealthy. Proud of his ignorance. More attracted to Trump's "energy" than to any of Trump's ideas (because there's no evidence he grasps Trump's ideas). Libertarian in ethos. He's one Palantir short of a Thiel.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:29 PM on May 2, 2018 [58 favorites]
Also, I should say, I'm off the Kanye train. I got off when he released an album on a platform I didn't have access to and have stayed off since he came out for Trump. Sorry, Ye, but I can't send my dollars to somebody whose going to send them to Trump.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:30 PM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:30 PM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
because there's no evidence he grasps Trump's ideas
Trump has ideas?
posted by mr_roboto at 9:30 PM on May 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
Trump has ideas?
posted by mr_roboto at 9:30 PM on May 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
Man I promise, I'm so self conscious
That's why you always see me with at least one of my watches
Rollies and Pasha's done drove me crazy
I can't even pronounce nothing, pass that versace!
Then I spent 400 bucks on this
Just to be like nigga you ain't up on this!
And I can't even go to the grocery store
Without some ones thats clean and a shirt with a team
It seems we living the american dream
But the people highest up got the lowest self esteem
The prettiest people do the ugliest things
For the road to riches and diamond rings
We shine because they hate us, floss cause they degrade us
We trying to buy back our 40 acres
And for that paper, look how low we a'stoop
Even if you in a Benz, you still a nigga in a coop/coupe
I say fuck the police, that's how I treat em
We buy our way out of jail, but we can't buy freedom
We'll buy a lot of clothes when we don't really need em
Things we buy to cover up what's inside
Cause they make us hate ourself and love they wealth
That's why shortys hollering "where the ballas' at?"
Drug dealer buy Jordans, crackhead buy crack
And a white man get paid off of all of that
But I ain't even goin' act holier than thou
Cause fuck it, I went to Jacob with 25 thou
Before I had a house and I'd do it again
Cause I wanna be on 106 and Park pushing a Benz
I wanna act ballerific like it's all terrific
I got a couple past due bills, I won't get specific
I got a problem with spending before I get it
We all self conscious I'm just the first to admit it
Kanye West - All Falls Down
posted by gucci mane at 9:30 PM on May 2, 2018 [17 favorites]
That's why you always see me with at least one of my watches
Rollies and Pasha's done drove me crazy
I can't even pronounce nothing, pass that versace!
Then I spent 400 bucks on this
Just to be like nigga you ain't up on this!
And I can't even go to the grocery store
Without some ones thats clean and a shirt with a team
It seems we living the american dream
But the people highest up got the lowest self esteem
The prettiest people do the ugliest things
For the road to riches and diamond rings
We shine because they hate us, floss cause they degrade us
We trying to buy back our 40 acres
And for that paper, look how low we a'stoop
Even if you in a Benz, you still a nigga in a coop/coupe
I say fuck the police, that's how I treat em
We buy our way out of jail, but we can't buy freedom
We'll buy a lot of clothes when we don't really need em
Things we buy to cover up what's inside
Cause they make us hate ourself and love they wealth
That's why shortys hollering "where the ballas' at?"
Drug dealer buy Jordans, crackhead buy crack
And a white man get paid off of all of that
But I ain't even goin' act holier than thou
Cause fuck it, I went to Jacob with 25 thou
Before I had a house and I'd do it again
Cause I wanna be on 106 and Park pushing a Benz
I wanna act ballerific like it's all terrific
I got a couple past due bills, I won't get specific
I got a problem with spending before I get it
We all self conscious I'm just the first to admit it
Kanye West - All Falls Down
posted by gucci mane at 9:30 PM on May 2, 2018 [17 favorites]
Years ago I saw a video on Jezebel that showed Kanye and Kim arriving somewhere in a car. Kanye gets out of the car, then stands there and watches while Kim, who is very pregnant, gets out of the car. She's clearly struggling to do so but he never offers her any assistance. Then they both walk towards a building. Kanye, who is walking ahead, gets there first, and he stops three feet from the door and just stands there looking at it, waiting until Kim arrives at the door and opens it, and then they both enter the building.
It's one of those little things that speaks volumes. I've got the guy blocked on Twitter, because too many people in my newsfeed kept retweeting his vapid bullshit -- to rebut it or ridicule it, but I didn't want to see it at all.
posted by orange swan at 9:37 PM on May 2, 2018 [22 favorites]
It's one of those little things that speaks volumes. I've got the guy blocked on Twitter, because too many people in my newsfeed kept retweeting his vapid bullshit -- to rebut it or ridicule it, but I didn't want to see it at all.
posted by orange swan at 9:37 PM on May 2, 2018 [22 favorites]
For every "Jesus Walks" or "All Falls Down" you have something like "I'm In It" (lyrics not safe for work and just lame and sexist and - yes - racist).
You'll note these are from opposite ends of Kanye's career. College Dropout is presumably the Old Kanye. MBDTF is the era where he's an asshole but he's still making incredible music. Yeezus has great production but the lyrics are really
halfassed as they generally seem to have been since.
posted by atoxyl at 9:38 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
You'll note these are from opposite ends of Kanye's career. College Dropout is presumably the Old Kanye. MBDTF is the era where he's an asshole but he's still making incredible music. Yeezus has great production but the lyrics are really
halfassed as they generally seem to have been since.
posted by atoxyl at 9:38 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Wow, that Kim and the car thing. That's just sad.
I can't say I've really wanted to get into his music because he always seems like he is a mentally ill idiot and extremely self absorbed asshole. Mentally ill is sad and concerning and the way he's going I'm kind of expecting some Britney level drama in a year or two, but even beyond his mental health issues that seem to be escalating, he sounds like he just enjoys being an ass. Which is probably why he and Trump are soulmates now.
At this point regarding the Kanye/Taylor feud, I don't like either of these people worth a damn, they're all jerks/snakes and it forces me to root for Kim Kardashian, and I find Kardashians boring. Oy.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:20 PM on May 2, 2018
I can't say I've really wanted to get into his music because he always seems like he is a mentally ill idiot and extremely self absorbed asshole. Mentally ill is sad and concerning and the way he's going I'm kind of expecting some Britney level drama in a year or two, but even beyond his mental health issues that seem to be escalating, he sounds like he just enjoys being an ass. Which is probably why he and Trump are soulmates now.
At this point regarding the Kanye/Taylor feud, I don't like either of these people worth a damn, they're all jerks/snakes and it forces me to root for Kim Kardashian, and I find Kardashians boring. Oy.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:20 PM on May 2, 2018
More from Kanye: "The reason why I brought up the 400 years point is because we can't be mentally imprisoned for another 400 years," he added. "We need free thought now. Even the statement was an example of free thought. It was just an idea."
Van Lathan:“The thing that got me out of my seat was when he said, ‘Slavery, 400 years, at a certain point that’s a choice.’ Now, the only reason why you have to combat ideas like that very vehemently is that if Kanye West does know the actual mechanism of slavery and how it worked, it was obviously far from a choice,” he explained.
“I think [West’s] overall point is to get people to divorce themselves from their victimhood.
“Once again, me and Kanye are in agreement on that. Is Kanye West pro-slavery, or is he blaming African-Americans for slavery? I highly doubt it. But I think that context and restraint are very important when you’re trying to make a salient point. He missed out on the opportunity to do that because he was in a stream of consciousness rant.”
posted by spaceburglar at 10:47 PM on May 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
Van Lathan:“The thing that got me out of my seat was when he said, ‘Slavery, 400 years, at a certain point that’s a choice.’ Now, the only reason why you have to combat ideas like that very vehemently is that if Kanye West does know the actual mechanism of slavery and how it worked, it was obviously far from a choice,” he explained.
“I think [West’s] overall point is to get people to divorce themselves from their victimhood.
“Once again, me and Kanye are in agreement on that. Is Kanye West pro-slavery, or is he blaming African-Americans for slavery? I highly doubt it. But I think that context and restraint are very important when you’re trying to make a salient point. He missed out on the opportunity to do that because he was in a stream of consciousness rant.”
posted by spaceburglar at 10:47 PM on May 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
What I find perplexing is that everyone is disowning Kanye for this now. What about the first time he posed for a photo with Trump?
posted by perplexion at 10:59 PM on May 2, 2018
posted by perplexion at 10:59 PM on May 2, 2018
I haven't noticed the talented part of him. Not that I try.I thought the same thing for a long time. You listen to his music and early on there are some bangers on Dropout ('Never Let Me Down') and Late Registration ('Gold Digger') but it's more or less easily accessible boom-boom-bap beats fun at college parties but not moving the needle anywhere near genius.
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:19 PM on May 2
Then the further you go the more derivative it becomes, and I don't mean sampling or mixing genres - on 'Black Skinhead' for example it's an outright lifting of the 'Beautiful People' beat. It's not like taking a soul sample or electronic sample and mixing it into something new. It's just co-opting the beat and calling it genius. For a long time I wondered why.
Why does Pitchfork give this guy a '10', why do hip hop boards fawn over his every release, when you listen and think, what am I missing? Finally someone clued me in. Going on with the same spiel here, derivative and so forth, the person was like, it's not so much the music by itself.
Starting right after MC Hammer the only hip hop represented nationally for a full decade was gangsta rap. If it wasn't about hoes and gats it never made Billboard, didn't enter the cultural consciousness and doomed any "positive" rap to alternative hip hop.
Kanye made it acceptable for rap to be about other things than just street life. It opened to door to an entire new generation of artists who wanted to talk about something other than what Cash Money and Death Row was giving them.
Without question there is art from the streets. Big Pun and Dead Prez is the real shit and whatever genre you want to express it in whatever way is ok.
But from MC Hammer to Kanye it was nothing but gangsta rap, and without Kanye there would be no Drake or J Cole or Macklemore for that matter. He opened up hip-hop to something bigger than where it was from.
And sure Pitchfork is from Chicago so they like Kanye regardless and 80% of rap is bought by white kids in the suburbs so they gravitate to what's more accessible so genius is easier to understand when you don't understand what it's like to have a gun in your mouth. But despite the footnotes Kanye opened up hip hop. Even now I don't personally listen to him - Kodak Black and Lil Uzi Vert are more from the heart - but
there is a larger contextual perspective. Hip-hop is now the cultural music for a generation, replacing rock's 40 year chart-topping dominance.
Whatever you think of his music, what he did is important.
posted by plexi at 11:00 PM on May 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
Without question there is art from the streets. Big Pun and Dead Prez is the real shit and whatever genre you want to express it in whatever way is ok.
Big Pun and Dead Prez are an odd comparison (if you meant that to illustrate the range of the genre that would make more sense I could be misreading).
posted by atoxyl at 11:17 PM on May 2, 2018
Big Pun and Dead Prez are an odd comparison (if you meant that to illustrate the range of the genre that would make more sense I could be misreading).
posted by atoxyl at 11:17 PM on May 2, 2018
The guy who has been comparing himself to Jesus for quite a few years is saying wacky stuff again? Huh.
This is the same stuff he’s been saying for awhile now. But he’s also got some new music to sell. And he wants to be president, which is a goal he set for himself years ago. He also married into and lives with a very rich family that enjoys themselves so much they have tv shows about how they have absolute freedom of choice because of their riches. And that family has ouspokenly supported Trump. And now he’s being bombastically metaphorical with topics that is very hurtful for a lot of people.
Tupac felt like he was vilified when he was saying “me against the work”, and he was right. Kanye is not Tupac. Kanye has been marketing himself to white people for a long time. I’m just curious to see how he’s going to try to swing this hippy-dippy all you need is love and free thought bit into a political candidacy.
He’ll still make good music and people will still support him for that alone.
posted by P.o.B. at 11:33 PM on May 2, 2018
This is the same stuff he’s been saying for awhile now. But he’s also got some new music to sell. And he wants to be president, which is a goal he set for himself years ago. He also married into and lives with a very rich family that enjoys themselves so much they have tv shows about how they have absolute freedom of choice because of their riches. And that family has ouspokenly supported Trump. And now he’s being bombastically metaphorical with topics that is very hurtful for a lot of people.
Tupac felt like he was vilified when he was saying “me against the work”, and he was right. Kanye is not Tupac. Kanye has been marketing himself to white people for a long time. I’m just curious to see how he’s going to try to swing this hippy-dippy all you need is love and free thought bit into a political candidacy.
He’ll still make good music and people will still support him for that alone.
posted by P.o.B. at 11:33 PM on May 2, 2018
But from MC Hammer to Kanye it was nothing but gangsta rap
This is... incorrect.
posted by P.o.B. at 11:35 PM on May 2, 2018 [57 favorites]
This is... incorrect.
posted by P.o.B. at 11:35 PM on May 2, 2018 [57 favorites]
Also, this is the best thing:
Amber Ruffin raps a response to Kanye West’s slavery comments
posted by P.o.B. at 11:41 PM on May 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
Amber Ruffin raps a response to Kanye West’s slavery comments
posted by P.o.B. at 11:41 PM on May 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
What I find perplexing is that everyone is disowning Kanye for this now. What about the first time he posed for a photo with Trump?
posted by perplexion at 2:59 PM on May 3 [+] [!]
Because Trump's persecution complex, like most persecution complexes, became a self-fulfilling prophecy when we handed him the keys to the nukes. Trump was always the King Midas of Shit, but it was laughable when it wasn't backed by nuclear-powered state violence. Shit got real.
posted by saysthis at 12:41 AM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by perplexion at 2:59 PM on May 3 [+] [!]
Because Trump's persecution complex, like most persecution complexes, became a self-fulfilling prophecy when we handed him the keys to the nukes. Trump was always the King Midas of Shit, but it was laughable when it wasn't backed by nuclear-powered state violence. Shit got real.
posted by saysthis at 12:41 AM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
This is... incorrect.Here are the hiphop tracks that made Billboard in the 1990s.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:35 AM on May 3
- Coolio : "Gangsta's Paradise" (1995)
- Bone Thugs-N-Harmony "Tha Crossroads" (1996)
- 2Pac "How Do U Want It" (1996)
- Puff Daddy: "Can't Nobody Hold Me Down" (1997)
- Notorious BIG: "Hypnotize" (1997)
- Notorious BIG: "Mo Money Mo Problems" (1997)
- Will Smith: "Gettin' Jiggy Wit It" (1997)
You're right. 'Getting Jiggy With It' blew open hip hop for a new generation of artists.
Really you could have made an argument for Outkast with 'Ms Jackson' or 'Hey Ya', which is really a pop song, but you didn't make an argument at all. You just said, "You're wrong."
I want to say something about Eternal September or cultural cognition, but instead let's just say There Are People In The World Who Are Concerned About Current State Of Hip-Hop.
posted by plexi at 1:27 AM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
How Non-Black People Can Talk About Kanye While Staying In Their Lane by Ijeoma Oluo
posted by BitterOldPunk at 2:23 AM on May 3, 2018 [43 favorites]
posted by BitterOldPunk at 2:23 AM on May 3, 2018 [43 favorites]
How Non-Black People Can Talk About Kanye While Staying In Their Lane by Ijeoma Oluo
posted by BitterOldPunk at 10:23 AM on May 3 [1 favorite −] [!]
YES, thank you, I needed this. I'm so upset over his harmful, irresponsible words but I don't want to make things worse or make it about me (non-black) and this was really helpful. THANK YOU.
posted by like_neon at 2:43 AM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by BitterOldPunk at 10:23 AM on May 3 [1 favorite −] [!]
YES, thank you, I needed this. I'm so upset over his harmful, irresponsible words but I don't want to make things worse or make it about me (non-black) and this was really helpful. THANK YOU.
posted by like_neon at 2:43 AM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Wow lots of hot takes about an artist from people who have never engaged with that artist's work.
Vox segment about some unique things Kanye does in his music
Dissect podcast about MBDTF
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:47 AM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Vox segment about some unique things Kanye does in his music
Dissect podcast about MBDTF
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:47 AM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
That Ijeoma Oluo piece is soooooo good.
Tip 3: Leave Kanye’s mental health out of this. Unless you are a licensed mental health professional who is currently treating Kanye, you need to stop trying to diagnose Kanye’s antics as a mental health crisis. You are not qualified, and your uneducated guesses are distracting from the real harm that Kanye’s words cause. People spent a lot of time during the last election speculating on Trump’s mental health, and you know what? He’s the fucking president now and maybe we should have gotten off of webMD and worked a little harder at calling out his hateful rhetoric.
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:51 AM on May 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
Tip 3: Leave Kanye’s mental health out of this. Unless you are a licensed mental health professional who is currently treating Kanye, you need to stop trying to diagnose Kanye’s antics as a mental health crisis. You are not qualified, and your uneducated guesses are distracting from the real harm that Kanye’s words cause. People spent a lot of time during the last election speculating on Trump’s mental health, and you know what? He’s the fucking president now and maybe we should have gotten off of webMD and worked a little harder at calling out his hateful rhetoric.
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:51 AM on May 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
Kanye is without doubt one of the greatest hip hop producers in the history of the art form. We should just get that out of way and established.
He’s also lost his damn mind
posted by dis_integration at 5:57 AM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
He’s also lost his damn mind
posted by dis_integration at 5:57 AM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
My favorite take on Kanye is the NY Post's snarky wedding announcement (NOT a link to the NY Post)
posted by Ber at 6:34 AM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Ber at 6:34 AM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Last year Alan Bishop of Sun City Girls released a bunch of brilliant projects and also told The Wire "The only reliable news sources are RT and PressTV." Kanye's taken that up a notch, but at least I got a warm-up for geniuses saying incredibly repellent things.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 6:36 AM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 6:36 AM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Wow lots of hot takes about an artist from people who have never engaged with that artist's work.
Astonishingly enough, an artist who speaks outside of his body of work may be criticized for that speech without the critic having to be intimately familiar with their back catalog. I certainly don't expect anyone mentioning how much of a mendacious shitbird Ted Nugent is to be able to offer a disquisition on Intensities in 10 Cities.
That having been said, Ijeoma Oluo's piece is very good and may apply to other situations.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:38 AM on May 3, 2018 [9 favorites]
Astonishingly enough, an artist who speaks outside of his body of work may be criticized for that speech without the critic having to be intimately familiar with their back catalog. I certainly don't expect anyone mentioning how much of a mendacious shitbird Ted Nugent is to be able to offer a disquisition on Intensities in 10 Cities.
That having been said, Ijeoma Oluo's piece is very good and may apply to other situations.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:38 AM on May 3, 2018 [9 favorites]
without Kanye there would be no Drake or J Cole or Macklemore for that matter.
The very fact that conscious hip-hop existed and continued to exist despite not being mainstream commercially acceptable explains what's wrong about this statement. No Drake as big cultural phenomenon, maybe, but that's not the same as no Drake.
He opened up hip-hop to something bigger than where it was from.
No, no, no. Your first statement at least makes some sense if it's talking about Drake, etc. as mainstream cultural phenomena. He certainly wasn't needed to teach the artists themselves there was something else out there. Read, for instance, Questlove's take on his rise in Mo' Meta Blues. He has mixed admiration and reservations, but he talks about Kanye's takeover of a left-of-center position, not his invention of it. It's hard to understand how you could make this statement except if you were only aware of the kind of rap that reached white kids from the suburbs in those days.
That said, while I enjoy some of his work and it certainly has been influential (without him, no Vince Staples yelling, "Ain't no gentrifying us, we finna buy the whole town!", which was my favorite rap moment of 2017, that's fair), his pathological egotism has been obvious for a lonnnnng time. I think it's depressing when people feel so powerless that they are willing to latch onto others' shallow materialism to feel some agency--most people to this point have liked Kanye at least in part because, not in spite of.
posted by praemunire at 7:14 AM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
The very fact that conscious hip-hop existed and continued to exist despite not being mainstream commercially acceptable explains what's wrong about this statement. No Drake as big cultural phenomenon, maybe, but that's not the same as no Drake.
He opened up hip-hop to something bigger than where it was from.
No, no, no. Your first statement at least makes some sense if it's talking about Drake, etc. as mainstream cultural phenomena. He certainly wasn't needed to teach the artists themselves there was something else out there. Read, for instance, Questlove's take on his rise in Mo' Meta Blues. He has mixed admiration and reservations, but he talks about Kanye's takeover of a left-of-center position, not his invention of it. It's hard to understand how you could make this statement except if you were only aware of the kind of rap that reached white kids from the suburbs in those days.
That said, while I enjoy some of his work and it certainly has been influential (without him, no Vince Staples yelling, "Ain't no gentrifying us, we finna buy the whole town!", which was my favorite rap moment of 2017, that's fair), his pathological egotism has been obvious for a lonnnnng time. I think it's depressing when people feel so powerless that they are willing to latch onto others' shallow materialism to feel some agency--most people to this point have liked Kanye at least in part because, not in spite of.
posted by praemunire at 7:14 AM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
I haven't noticed the talented part of him. Not that I try.
I can't say that I've ever actually listened to his music
Admittedly I've never listened to his music
I literally know nothing about Kanye
Y'know, its perfectly fine to just not offer your opinion. Particularly if you're white and you don't know much about Kanye or his career, maybe just have a seat and listen. Or don't listen, that's okay too - it's unlikely that anything particularly valuable or illuminating will come out of this situation. But the world has more than enough people offering up their half-formed takes on what black people are doing wrong, maybe don't let your voice contribute to that choir.
posted by parallellines at 7:36 AM on May 3, 2018 [48 favorites]
I can't say that I've ever actually listened to his music
Admittedly I've never listened to his music
I literally know nothing about Kanye
Y'know, its perfectly fine to just not offer your opinion. Particularly if you're white and you don't know much about Kanye or his career, maybe just have a seat and listen. Or don't listen, that's okay too - it's unlikely that anything particularly valuable or illuminating will come out of this situation. But the world has more than enough people offering up their half-formed takes on what black people are doing wrong, maybe don't let your voice contribute to that choir.
posted by parallellines at 7:36 AM on May 3, 2018 [48 favorites]
Before considering mental illness, just run by the hypothesis that maybe he's a huuuuuuuge dickhead.
posted by adept256 at 7:44 AM on May 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 7:44 AM on May 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
Like Trump, Kanye has tapped into an easy, non-discriminating market in which to siphon dollars and generate crowd hysteria. There are numerous examples in history for whom this has worked quite well.
posted by waving at 8:17 AM on May 3, 2018
posted by waving at 8:17 AM on May 3, 2018
Y'know, its perfectly fine to just not offer your opinion.
Thank you. I have heard a lot of people saying things about this with no context. If you've only heard Gold Digger and know Kanye because he stormed the stage at the VMAs and/or because he's Kim's husband... sit down. You don't know what you are talking about. Saying you don't know what you're talking about doesn't make it ok to share your uninformed opinion.
posted by sockermom at 8:22 AM on May 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
Thank you. I have heard a lot of people saying things about this with no context. If you've only heard Gold Digger and know Kanye because he stormed the stage at the VMAs and/or because he's Kim's husband... sit down. You don't know what you are talking about. Saying you don't know what you're talking about doesn't make it ok to share your uninformed opinion.
posted by sockermom at 8:22 AM on May 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
Telling people to keep their opinion of one of the most famous people in America to themselves, while it has very solid and defensible logical underpinnings, is a losing proposition.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:29 AM on May 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:29 AM on May 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
Y'know, its perfectly fine to just not offer your opinion.
This. Also debating over speculation about whether someone is a bad person or mentally ill is not at all helpful or good, especially for people with mental health issues.
posted by Lutoslawski at 8:36 AM on May 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
This. Also debating over speculation about whether someone is a bad person or mentally ill is not at all helpful or good, especially for people with mental health issues.
posted by Lutoslawski at 8:36 AM on May 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
People are problematic. Celebrities are problematic. It is possible for Kanye to be a genius and a jerk.
posted by Kitteh at 8:51 AM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Kitteh at 8:51 AM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Truly shocking that a guy with Confederate flag tour shirts would be a Trump supporter
and although I am similarly not shocked, Lentrohamsanin's comments about Alan Bishop are dismaying
posted by SystematicAbuse at 9:17 AM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
and although I am similarly not shocked, Lentrohamsanin's comments about Alan Bishop are dismaying
posted by SystematicAbuse at 9:17 AM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
You just said, "You're wrong."
Because you are, and embarrassingly so. You're reducing the past and current state of hip hop to Billboard charts, and that is just plain ridiculous. Almost offensive. Do you actually believe that any rappers that came after Kanye didn't listen to any other rap music besides the half dozen rappers that charted on Billboard? Or only took their cues from them? Besides Kris Kross, Sir Mix-a-Lot, Puffy, & Will Smith were not gangster rappers. That alone proves you wrong without having to get into any heavy lifting. There are so many artists and albums that you are perfectly fine tossing aside it's just - wow.
P.S., Outkast is probably one of the top rap duos, or groups even, of all time. All of their albums are insta-classic filled with bangers and has had a tremendous impact upon the landscape of hip hop. Anyone who is into hip hop would find it very hard to handwave away their contributions in any context.
posted by P.o.B. at 10:07 AM on May 3, 2018 [13 favorites]
Because you are, and embarrassingly so. You're reducing the past and current state of hip hop to Billboard charts, and that is just plain ridiculous. Almost offensive. Do you actually believe that any rappers that came after Kanye didn't listen to any other rap music besides the half dozen rappers that charted on Billboard? Or only took their cues from them? Besides Kris Kross, Sir Mix-a-Lot, Puffy, & Will Smith were not gangster rappers. That alone proves you wrong without having to get into any heavy lifting. There are so many artists and albums that you are perfectly fine tossing aside it's just - wow.
P.S., Outkast is probably one of the top rap duos, or groups even, of all time. All of their albums are insta-classic filled with bangers and has had a tremendous impact upon the landscape of hip hop. Anyone who is into hip hop would find it very hard to handwave away their contributions in any context.
posted by P.o.B. at 10:07 AM on May 3, 2018 [13 favorites]
I made a Kanye FPP 10 years ago next month. I’m so sickened by the slavery comment I don’t know what to do with myself. I had long stopped checking for his new stuff, and I didnt get all into the Kanye and Kim stuff, so I missed a lot of his nonsense of the past 5 years I’m sure. But that comment is just bananas.
I mean I have heard black speakers say similar things about us, and how we could rise up violently, and to give it a charitable read it will never deserve, had we chosen to act out all the violent thoughts in oir heads, there’d be bloodshed daily and an endless conflict and lives lost (mostly ours likely). And I’ve also been through the marches and the “black national anthem” singing and felt that desire to not sing about that but instead sing about the actions that would stem from the rage you feel when you see people hit with water from firehoses or beaten until they are unrecognizable.
And in the past few years I’ve felt more and more the sentiment that the only way we’re going to get true respect and equality is through an attack of some kind on this society (not because we want to but because it often feels like violence is the only thing this society respects), but the bottom line is if you’re going to express any of those ideas and you’re a national figure, you cant let some half-assed comment dribble forth.
There should be a word for this. A word that captures when a person so embedded in the history and development of a community later turns out to be terrible. I guess the slave-owning forefathers of the country would sort of fall into the category as well. I don’t know, I’m just hurt. With Cosby and Kanye, in different ways, it feels like I have to get the machine from Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and start zapping. Because like with Bill with my comedic soul, Kanye’s verses and beats and songs are a chunk of my hip hop self. If I could zap it out, I would, because I don’t think its possible for me to avoid saying their stuff at this point, no matter how hard I’ll try. Screw you, Kayne.
posted by cashman at 10:15 AM on May 3, 2018 [9 favorites]
I mean I have heard black speakers say similar things about us, and how we could rise up violently, and to give it a charitable read it will never deserve, had we chosen to act out all the violent thoughts in oir heads, there’d be bloodshed daily and an endless conflict and lives lost (mostly ours likely). And I’ve also been through the marches and the “black national anthem” singing and felt that desire to not sing about that but instead sing about the actions that would stem from the rage you feel when you see people hit with water from firehoses or beaten until they are unrecognizable.
And in the past few years I’ve felt more and more the sentiment that the only way we’re going to get true respect and equality is through an attack of some kind on this society (not because we want to but because it often feels like violence is the only thing this society respects), but the bottom line is if you’re going to express any of those ideas and you’re a national figure, you cant let some half-assed comment dribble forth.
There should be a word for this. A word that captures when a person so embedded in the history and development of a community later turns out to be terrible. I guess the slave-owning forefathers of the country would sort of fall into the category as well. I don’t know, I’m just hurt. With Cosby and Kanye, in different ways, it feels like I have to get the machine from Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and start zapping. Because like with Bill with my comedic soul, Kanye’s verses and beats and songs are a chunk of my hip hop self. If I could zap it out, I would, because I don’t think its possible for me to avoid saying their stuff at this point, no matter how hard I’ll try. Screw you, Kayne.
posted by cashman at 10:15 AM on May 3, 2018 [9 favorites]
I just want the album to be out so we can get some sort of a post-marketing rebound for all of this, I can't help but think all of this harm is ultimately being done to the tune of marketing and attention grabbing, done in the way everything seems to have to be today. If you want a Trump level of attention given to you, it makes sense to just use Trump to get it.
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:58 AM on May 3, 2018
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:58 AM on May 3, 2018
If you don't listen to Kanye or much rap at all, I present this song as an intro. I'm not drawing on any consensus opinion about his best tracks, I just think this is one of the best songs in any genre of music, and very accessible to non rap fans. Note: the studio version is much better and not on youtube.
Also, someone who knew rap much better than me once explained that Kanye was such a big deal for rap and for the black community is he was the first rapper to wear a chain AND talk about going to church. He united the rappers who posed as bad ('gangsta' rap) and the rappers who posed as good ('conscious' rappers). He's saying he likes money, girls, flashy shit, but he's not bragging about it. He's ashamed of it. He has a conscience. He knows he should do better. And what a quantum leap that was for black art.
Thinking about Kanye like this, you can hear it in so many songs. Like in one of my favourite tracks, Can't Tell Me Nothing:
I had a dream I could buy my way to heaven
When I awoke, I spent that on a necklace
I told God I'd be back in a second
Man it's so hard not to act reckless
To whom much is given, much is tested
Get arrested guess until he get the message
I feel the pressure, under more scrutiny
And what I do? Act more stupidly
Bought more jewelry, more Louis V
My Momma couldn't get through to me
This is guilty conscience rap, bragging about the brands he wears while telling you he feels guilty and knows he should be doing better, like the lyrics of All Falls Down gucci mane quoted above. The struggle he talks about isn't the struggle of making it big from nothing -- the classic Biggie narrative -- and it's not the simple personal struggle of having made it, like Drake, who's just solipsistically lonely -- it's the struggle of doing the right thing once you've made it. And like, yeah, pre-written lyrics are a pose, but he consistently comes back to this inner conflict, and it seems to me at least like it genuinely tears him up.
This recent pro-Trump twitter spree seems like just one more false solution to the problem of 'being rich and not doing the right thing' he's trying on. He wants to feel okay being super rich, he wants to feel like trying to make a meeting with Peter Thiel is a reasonable thing to do, but when he posts that pic of his clean white home saying does it look like the sunken place -- this is not someone who's confident in this stance. He's trying to convince himself.
posted by skwt at 12:37 PM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Also, someone who knew rap much better than me once explained that Kanye was such a big deal for rap and for the black community is he was the first rapper to wear a chain AND talk about going to church. He united the rappers who posed as bad ('gangsta' rap) and the rappers who posed as good ('conscious' rappers). He's saying he likes money, girls, flashy shit, but he's not bragging about it. He's ashamed of it. He has a conscience. He knows he should do better. And what a quantum leap that was for black art.
Thinking about Kanye like this, you can hear it in so many songs. Like in one of my favourite tracks, Can't Tell Me Nothing:
I had a dream I could buy my way to heaven
When I awoke, I spent that on a necklace
I told God I'd be back in a second
Man it's so hard not to act reckless
To whom much is given, much is tested
Get arrested guess until he get the message
I feel the pressure, under more scrutiny
And what I do? Act more stupidly
Bought more jewelry, more Louis V
My Momma couldn't get through to me
This is guilty conscience rap, bragging about the brands he wears while telling you he feels guilty and knows he should be doing better, like the lyrics of All Falls Down gucci mane quoted above. The struggle he talks about isn't the struggle of making it big from nothing -- the classic Biggie narrative -- and it's not the simple personal struggle of having made it, like Drake, who's just solipsistically lonely -- it's the struggle of doing the right thing once you've made it. And like, yeah, pre-written lyrics are a pose, but he consistently comes back to this inner conflict, and it seems to me at least like it genuinely tears him up.
This recent pro-Trump twitter spree seems like just one more false solution to the problem of 'being rich and not doing the right thing' he's trying on. He wants to feel okay being super rich, he wants to feel like trying to make a meeting with Peter Thiel is a reasonable thing to do, but when he posts that pic of his clean white home saying does it look like the sunken place -- this is not someone who's confident in this stance. He's trying to convince himself.
posted by skwt at 12:37 PM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Telling people to keep their opinion of one of the most famous people in America to themselves, while it has very solid and defensible logical underpinnings, is a losing proposition.
Very possibly. Fame is a rather virulent toxin. It tends to affect everyone it touches. One finds they've got an opinion about this or that without wanting to. Like walking into a room full of dust (he said mixing up the metaphors), you can't help but sneeze.
posted by philip-random at 1:00 PM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Very possibly. Fame is a rather virulent toxin. It tends to affect everyone it touches. One finds they've got an opinion about this or that without wanting to. Like walking into a room full of dust (he said mixing up the metaphors), you can't help but sneeze.
posted by philip-random at 1:00 PM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Before considering mental illness, just run by the hypothesis that maybe he's a huuuuuuuge dickhead.
like the extremes of the political left and right often find each other engaging in entirely similar tactics, I'm not convinced that extreme assholism and mental illness are mutually exclusive.
posted by philip-random at 1:06 PM on May 3, 2018
like the extremes of the political left and right often find each other engaging in entirely similar tactics, I'm not convinced that extreme assholism and mental illness are mutually exclusive.
posted by philip-random at 1:06 PM on May 3, 2018
[Kanye] was the first rapper to wear a chain AND talk about going to church
Counterpoint.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:09 PM on May 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
Counterpoint.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:09 PM on May 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
Starting right after MC Hammer the only hip hop represented nationally for a full decade was gangsta rap. If it wasn't about hoes and gats it never made Billboard, didn't enter the cultural consciousness and doomed any "positive" rap to alternative hip hop.
Emminem, Ludacriss, Missy Elliot, oh, god, this isn't even wrong. That's not even taking into account stuff like the Jurassic 5 and Blackalicious and The Herbalizer and Saul Williams, all of which were strong national acts wayyyy before Kanye made his debut.
posted by Slap*Happy at 1:15 PM on May 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
Emminem, Ludacriss, Missy Elliot, oh, god, this isn't even wrong. That's not even taking into account stuff like the Jurassic 5 and Blackalicious and The Herbalizer and Saul Williams, all of which were strong national acts wayyyy before Kanye made his debut.
posted by Slap*Happy at 1:15 PM on May 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
Note: the studio version is much better and not on youtube.
??
It may be regionally restricted, though - sorry if that's the case.
posted by atoxyl at 1:26 PM on May 3, 2018
??
It may be regionally restricted, though - sorry if that's the case.
posted by atoxyl at 1:26 PM on May 3, 2018
But from MC Hammer to Kanye it was nothing but gangsta rap
'2 Legit 2 Quit' was released in 1991, and 'Through the Wire' was released in 2003. In the intervening years:
1992 - 3 Years, 5 Months and 2 Days in the Life of Arrested Development; Bizarre Ride II The Pharcyde
1993 - Buhloone Mindstate; Innercity Griots
1994 - 6 Feet Deep; Resurrection
1995 - Do You Want More?!; Coast II Coast
1996 - The Score; Beats, Rhymes, and Life
1997 - Funcrusher Plus; Soundbombing
1998 - The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill; Mos Def and Talib Kweli are Black Star
1999 - Black on Both Sides; Operation: Doomsday
2000 - Let's Get Free; Nia
2001 - The Best Part; Amethyst Rock Star
2002 - God Loves Ugly; I Phantom
That's without doubling up on artists (okay, L-Boogie and Yasiin), and without mentioning The Coup, KRS-One, Public Enemy, Paris... I will readily admit that not all of those albums put up Puffy-style sales figures.
On the other hand, Lauryn Hill.
posted by box at 1:34 PM on May 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
'2 Legit 2 Quit' was released in 1991, and 'Through the Wire' was released in 2003. In the intervening years:
1992 - 3 Years, 5 Months and 2 Days in the Life of Arrested Development; Bizarre Ride II The Pharcyde
1993 - Buhloone Mindstate; Innercity Griots
1994 - 6 Feet Deep; Resurrection
1995 - Do You Want More?!; Coast II Coast
1996 - The Score; Beats, Rhymes, and Life
1997 - Funcrusher Plus; Soundbombing
1998 - The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill; Mos Def and Talib Kweli are Black Star
1999 - Black on Both Sides; Operation: Doomsday
2000 - Let's Get Free; Nia
2001 - The Best Part; Amethyst Rock Star
2002 - God Loves Ugly; I Phantom
That's without doubling up on artists (okay, L-Boogie and Yasiin), and without mentioning The Coup, KRS-One, Public Enemy, Paris... I will readily admit that not all of those albums put up Puffy-style sales figures.
On the other hand, Lauryn Hill.
posted by box at 1:34 PM on May 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
Kanye needs to sample Alex Jones on his next album. His carnival barking voice would sound pretty good on a Death Grips style hip hop/metal type album.
posted by bookman117 at 1:55 PM on May 3, 2018
posted by bookman117 at 1:55 PM on May 3, 2018
Starting right after MC Hammer the only hip hop represented nationally for a full decade was gangsta rap. If it wasn't about hoes and gats it never made Billboard, didn't enter the cultural consciousness and doomed any "positive" rap to alternative hip hop.
Can't help but think of De La's brainwashed follower, Jeff. "Everybody that's def has gold, cars, money...", billboard charted singles....
posted by SoundInhabitant at 2:11 PM on May 3, 2018
Can't help but think of De La's brainwashed follower, Jeff. "Everybody that's def has gold, cars, money...", billboard charted singles....
posted by SoundInhabitant at 2:11 PM on May 3, 2018
Yeah, there's a trove of songs from Native Tongues crew that could be referenced there.
[Kanye] was the first rapper to wear a chain AND talk about going to church
Off the top of my head - Down With the King came out in 93. Tupac rapped about his personal struggles and his faith frequently. As did DMX.
This has always been my issue when people talk about Kanye. There is A LOT ascribed to him that really is just ignoring the breadth of what hip hop culture already has to offer. He's easily one of the dopest hip hop producers ever, but really just an okay MC. His overly heightened status always comes into play when he's doing stuff like this and it doesn't seem to ever help the conversation.
posted by P.o.B. at 3:09 PM on May 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
[Kanye] was the first rapper to wear a chain AND talk about going to church
Off the top of my head - Down With the King came out in 93. Tupac rapped about his personal struggles and his faith frequently. As did DMX.
This has always been my issue when people talk about Kanye. There is A LOT ascribed to him that really is just ignoring the breadth of what hip hop culture already has to offer. He's easily one of the dopest hip hop producers ever, but really just an okay MC. His overly heightened status always comes into play when he's doing stuff like this and it doesn't seem to ever help the conversation.
posted by P.o.B. at 3:09 PM on May 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
This pile-on probably should stop, but I too was surprised that anyone would make the argument that Kanye had popularised conscious rapping, rather than riding on a long lasting wave that goes back at least to The Message in 1982.
I am pretty sure Guru wasn't the first rapper to explore the balance between success and their faith and black rights either, but here he is in 1991:
Gangstarr - Who's Gonna Take the Weight?
I was raised like a Muslim, prayin' to the East
Nature of my life relates rhymes I release like a cannon
Cuz I been plannin' to be rammin' what I wrote
Straight on a plate down your throat
So digest as I suggest we take a good look
At who's who while I'm readin' from my good book
....
Swiftly, as we embark on a journey
I had to get an attorney
I needed someone to defend my position
Decisions I made, cuz now it's time to get paid
And ladies, these rhymes are like the keys to a dope car
Maybe a Lexus or a Jaguar
Still, all of that is just material
So won't you dig the scenario
And just imagine if each one is teachin' one
We'll come together so that we become
A strong force, then we can stay on course
Find your direction through introspection
And for my people out there I got a question
Can we be the sole controllers of our fate?
Now who's gonna take the weight?
Maybe Kanye has found success rapping about these kinds of ideas in mainstream hip hop music, which is a massive market, but they are not new in the world of hip hop, or even mainstream hip hop. He seems to be one of a very long line of excellent producers who are not outstanding rappers. I think there has been a lot of 'engineers disease' going around, where producers with big egos think that they can rap as well as anyone else, which is seldom the case.
Anyway, this is eponisterical:
What I find perplexing is that everyone is disowning Kanye for this now. What about the first time he posed for a photo with Trump?
posted by perplexion
posted by asok at 4:04 PM on May 3, 2018
I am pretty sure Guru wasn't the first rapper to explore the balance between success and their faith and black rights either, but here he is in 1991:
Gangstarr - Who's Gonna Take the Weight?
I was raised like a Muslim, prayin' to the East
Nature of my life relates rhymes I release like a cannon
Cuz I been plannin' to be rammin' what I wrote
Straight on a plate down your throat
So digest as I suggest we take a good look
At who's who while I'm readin' from my good book
....
Swiftly, as we embark on a journey
I had to get an attorney
I needed someone to defend my position
Decisions I made, cuz now it's time to get paid
And ladies, these rhymes are like the keys to a dope car
Maybe a Lexus or a Jaguar
Still, all of that is just material
So won't you dig the scenario
And just imagine if each one is teachin' one
We'll come together so that we become
A strong force, then we can stay on course
Find your direction through introspection
And for my people out there I got a question
Can we be the sole controllers of our fate?
Now who's gonna take the weight?
Maybe Kanye has found success rapping about these kinds of ideas in mainstream hip hop music, which is a massive market, but they are not new in the world of hip hop, or even mainstream hip hop. He seems to be one of a very long line of excellent producers who are not outstanding rappers. I think there has been a lot of 'engineers disease' going around, where producers with big egos think that they can rap as well as anyone else, which is seldom the case.
Anyway, this is eponisterical:
What I find perplexing is that everyone is disowning Kanye for this now. What about the first time he posed for a photo with Trump?
posted by perplexion
posted by asok at 4:04 PM on May 3, 2018
I feel that the 'great producer who is OK rapper' phenomenon has been more prevalent since hip hop has had more money in it, but that could just be due to the amount of exposure that they get.
posted by asok at 4:19 PM on May 3, 2018
posted by asok at 4:19 PM on May 3, 2018
I'm disappointed by Current Kanye... but I'm also incredibly frustrated that many of the people going after Kanye have been silent about R Kelly--someone who's actually and irredeemably terrible.
posted by TwoStride at 4:45 PM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 4:45 PM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Octavia Butler on why she wrote Kindred
But when I did Kindred, I really had had this experience in college that I talk about all the time, of this Black guy saying, 'I wish I could kill all these old Black people that have been holding us back for so long, but I can't because I have to start with my own parents.' That was a friend of mine. And I realized that, even though he knew a lot more than I did about Black history, it was all cerebral. He wasn't feeling any of it. He was the kind that would have killed and died, as opposed to surviving and hanging on and hoping and working for change. And I thought about my mother, because she used to take me to work with her when she couldn't get a baby sitter and I was too young to be left alone, and I saw her going in the back door, and I saw people saying things to her that she didn't like but couldn't respond to. I heard people say in her hearing, 'Well, I don't really like colored people.' And she kept working, and she put me through school, she bought her house – all the stuff she did. I realized that he didn't understand what heroism was. That's what I want to write about: when you are aware of what it means to be an adult and what choices you have to make, the fact that maybe you're afraid, but you still have to act.''posted by stet at 5:02 PM on May 3, 2018 [11 favorites]
Chad at the barbershop has opinions on Kanye. (SLTwitter, from Crystal Methanny/Rafi DAngelo.)
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:10 PM on May 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:10 PM on May 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm also incredibly frustrated that many of the people going after Kanye have been silent about R Kelly--someone who's actually and irredeemably terrible.
I have no idea what that Venn diagram looks like, but #MeToo has not been silent about R.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:54 PM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
I have no idea what that Venn diagram looks like, but #MeToo has not been silent about R.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:54 PM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Of course #MeToo has been on it, but on the other end of the spectrum: Detroit Music Station Mutes Kanye West But Doesn't Know About R Kelly or Chris Brown. And anecdotally, my corners of POC social media have been nonstop about Kanye in ways that they've never been about R Kelly (black feminists aside).
posted by TwoStride at 6:04 PM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by TwoStride at 6:04 PM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
The Kanye West Prestige Theory Exploring a theory that Kanye West is attempting to pull off an Andy Kaufman-inspired performance art piece.
Hmmmm
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:22 PM on May 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
Hmmmm
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:22 PM on May 4, 2018 [4 favorites]
Black Twitter is making brilliance from #IfSlaveryWasAChoice
This one made me snort hot sauce
This one made me snort hot sauce
#IfSlaveryWasAChoice Me walking onto the ship to the new world to pick cotton for free with squadposted by spamandkimchi at 2:09 PM on May 5, 2018
Apologies if someone else has linked it, but Ta-Nihisi Coates' I'm Not Black, I'm Kanye is worth a look.
posted by juv3nal at 3:15 PM on May 8, 2018
posted by juv3nal at 3:15 PM on May 8, 2018
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