'It's an Anime Titty Holocaust'
May 22, 2018 12:31 PM Subscribe
Steam Is Cracking Down on Visual Novels [Motherboard] “Fans of visual novel games and adult-themed anime games around the world woke up to some troubling news this morning. According to several independent developers, Steam, the largest digital storefront for computer games, is cracking down on a number of games that feature scantily clad cartoon women. According to these developers, Valve, the company that operates Steam, has given them until the end of the month to remove adult content from their games. If they don't, Valve will boot their games from the store.”
• What the hell is Steam doing with VNs right now? [Rock Paper Shotgun]
• What the hell is Steam doing with VNs right now? [Rock Paper Shotgun]
“This just seems to be the latest round in Valve’s never-ending game of Calvinball regarding what exactly constitutes ‘adult content’ on Steam. Their guidelines for what is actually allowed for sale on Steam are notoriously vague, and no public-facing definition of what is allowed has been published, merely that it should not be ‘pornographic’. Apparently they are free to change their internal definition of pornography without telling anyone, which is fully within their legal rights, but also an enormous pain in the arse for anyone wanting to release a game even vaguely near the limits of what is supposedly allowed.”• Adult visual novels to be censored further or removed from Steam, developers say [Polygon]
“Where Steam draws the line for sexual themes in games remains unknown, as recent titles like the comedic BDSM visual novel Ladykiller in a Bind never received any notice from Valve, according to that game’s lead producer, Christine Love. There has also been no statement about the plethora of mainstream games that include nudity, like The Witcher 3 or Grand Theft Auto 5. Adult visual novels on Steam have always been an iffy subject, as the Steam platform is accessible to minors. Whether or not the games really belong on the platform has been an ongoing question, as people might not want others to see that they’ve been playing lightly pornographic games (even if they’re just playing for the plot, they swear).”• Visual Novel Publisher Expands To GOG, Says Steam Is 'Threatening Livelihoods' [Kotaku]
“Last week, several developers of visual novels with varying degrees of sexual content received emails from Valve saying that their games were in danger of being removed by the end of the month. Among these games was Kindred Spirits, published by MangaGamer, which was the first uncensored visual novel to be released on Steam. Although Valve has reached out to these developers to say that their games are no longer in danger, MangaGamer says it is now seeking new retailers to sell its games. “This opportunity couldn’t have come at a better time,” John Pickett, PR Director of MangaGamer, said in a press release. “We had been speaking with GOG prior to recent events about adding visual novels as a genre to their retail platform, and with Valve now threatening the livelihoods of visual novel developers everywhere, it’s a huge relief to see GOG opening their doors to these games.””• Valve is suddenly targeting adult visual novels for removal from Steam [Destructoid]
““There's anecdotal rumors I've heard,” Rasmussen claims, “that suggests Valve is receiving a lot of pressure to remove any and all mature content from its platform. Maybe that group isn't directly to blame, but likely had a strong hand in this decision.” That last part is mostly speculation, but this is all the developers and publishers have to go on at the moment. With Valve remaining mum, it is anyone’s guess as to what is going on. To give some background, the “National Center on Sexual Exploitation” (which, for a period, was called "Morality in Media") is a group that sprung out of Jerry Falwell’s “Moral Majority” campaign a few decades ago. They have been big backers of the recent FOSTA/SESTA acts, which are attempts to curb sex trafficking both online and off. While this may not have anything to do with Valve’s current efforts to remove specific sexual content from Steam, the NCSE has always been eager to call any sexual content “exploitative,” so I don’t believe their claims of forcing Valve’s hand are false.”• Valve’s move to censor visual novels undoes its Steam Direct promises [Venture Beat]
“The company even used visual novels of an example of how it is not equipped to properly curate Steam for its diverse customer base. “It’s really hard to define a bad game,” said Giardino “The customer who has 25 visual novels in their Steam library is really hoping we’ll release more visual novels, while the person who plays other games is never going to buy a visual novel no matter what. Those customers are just looking for different things, so it’s less about us trying to define the quality line — or here’s a bad game and here’s a good one. And more about saying that if you have a great idea if you have a great concept, you can bring your game to Steam and find customers who are excited about it.” But now the crackdown on visual novels has muddied that vision. The problems, according to developers, is that Valve isn’t providing an easy-to-understand policy for why some games are OK by its standards and others are not. While many visual novels feature breasts and sexual organs, that is a type of content that is not exclusive to anime-style games.”
But remember - humans are expensive, algorithms are cheap.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:39 PM on May 22, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:39 PM on May 22, 2018 [7 favorites]
Troubling as the arbitrariness may be, I'm still stuck on the Vice article's implication that "fan of visual novel games" == "fan of [VNs featuring] scantily clad cartoon women".
posted by inconstant at 12:39 PM on May 22, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by inconstant at 12:39 PM on May 22, 2018 [15 favorites]
The Holocaust comparison is also rather tasteless, considering.
posted by inconstant at 12:40 PM on May 22, 2018 [26 favorites]
posted by inconstant at 12:40 PM on May 22, 2018 [26 favorites]
So the rumour I have heard is that Valve is trying to clean up their store in order to get the Steam Link app on the iOS store. A beta version of this app, which will allow streaming of a Steam game from your PC to your mobile device, is available on the Google Play store, but the iOS version is "pending review."
Just conjecture for now, as far as I can tell, and the timing could very well be complete coincidence.
posted by ODiV at 12:42 PM on May 22, 2018 [7 favorites]
Just conjecture for now, as far as I can tell, and the timing could very well be complete coincidence.
posted by ODiV at 12:42 PM on May 22, 2018 [7 favorites]
Valve had to approve/review these game to be sold on Steam, correct? Why can't they just have a new policy for future games and leave the ones that actually made them (Valve) money?
posted by littlesq at 12:44 PM on May 22, 2018
posted by littlesq at 12:44 PM on May 22, 2018
The Holocaust comparison is also rather tasteless, considering.
From the article:
posted by Fizz at 12:44 PM on May 22, 2018 [21 favorites]
From the article:
"It's an anime titty holocaust," HuniePot, the developer of HuniePop, a match-3 puzzle game where players also chat up busty anime girls, said in a tweet.I never thought I'd ever read a sentence like this in my life, yet here we are.
posted by Fizz at 12:44 PM on May 22, 2018 [21 favorites]
Valve had to approve/review these game to be sold on Steam, correct? Why can't they just have a new policy for future games and leave the ones that actually made them (Valve) money?
Ehhhh. "Review" is a bit strong. Lately it seems as though as long as it's not actively malicious, you're good to go! I imagine their preference is just to leave everything alone and let the magic of group curation take care of it. But pressure is coming from somewhere, whether it's some far right "family values" special interest group, or elsewhere.
To steal a phrase I read, some Valve employees need to roll their desks over to the PR section for a while to communicate a bit better about what the hell this is and then maybe they can dust off the curation corner next.
posted by ODiV at 12:52 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Ehhhh. "Review" is a bit strong. Lately it seems as though as long as it's not actively malicious, you're good to go! I imagine their preference is just to leave everything alone and let the magic of group curation take care of it. But pressure is coming from somewhere, whether it's some far right "family values" special interest group, or elsewhere.
To steal a phrase I read, some Valve employees need to roll their desks over to the PR section for a while to communicate a bit better about what the hell this is and then maybe they can dust off the curation corner next.
posted by ODiV at 12:52 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Probably not at all unrelated (and possibly mentioned in one of the articles above, but haven’t seen it yet) online gaming retailer GOG blogs about releasing visual novels on their platform. Starting it off with a week long sale.
posted by Martijn at 1:00 PM on May 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Martijn at 1:00 PM on May 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm still not entirely clear how this plays into Valve's previous "policy" of selling non-explicit games on their storefront and turning a blind eye to developers handing out downloads to patch the game into full explicit mode. So what, now the non-explicit versions have to be even less explicit? It really seems like developers are being hit with this change with little rhyme or reason.
Does Apple realize there's nothing stopping me from plugging a smutty non-Steam game into Steam and streaming it to my iPad via Steam Link? Or, you know, just going to an adult site in Safari? If this is really about Apple balking at sexy games via Steam Link then this whole thing is really, really dumb.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 1:01 PM on May 22, 2018
Does Apple realize there's nothing stopping me from plugging a smutty non-Steam game into Steam and streaming it to my iPad via Steam Link? Or, you know, just going to an adult site in Safari? If this is really about Apple balking at sexy games via Steam Link then this whole thing is really, really dumb.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 1:01 PM on May 22, 2018
I am interested in seeing how Nintendo handles this genre. I've seen a few VNs creep into their marketplace and it's a platform that is just perfect for this kind of game/story. But Nintendo for the longest time has kept every thing family friendly. That being said, the Switch has upended this because we're now seeing more adult games like DOOM, Dark Souls, Outlast 2, hitting the marketplace.
posted by Fizz at 1:03 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Fizz at 1:03 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
I doubt we'll see fully adult games on the Switch, but still. It's something to think about.
posted by Fizz at 1:03 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Fizz at 1:03 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Troubling as the arbitrariness may be, I'm still stuck on the Vice article's implication that "fan of visual novel games" == "fan of [VNs featuring] scantily clad cartoon women".
There's an entire genre of these games primarily for women, and the reasonably low barrier to entry makes that segment more LGBTQ friendly than AAA or even medium-scale indie have been.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 1:14 PM on May 22, 2018 [9 favorites]
There's an entire genre of these games primarily for women, and the reasonably low barrier to entry makes that segment more LGBTQ friendly than AAA or even medium-scale indie have been.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 1:14 PM on May 22, 2018 [9 favorites]
The Huniepop guy is a gamergater, so, don't be too shocked by inappropriate comments.
I don't buy the iOS explanation, because there are Reddit apps all over the place that don't do anything to stop NSFW reddits.
Honestly, a blanket ban would make more sense. Instead it seems highly random and arbitrary. Huniepop has no nudity but a (I think) 0 kb file you can download to flip the switch. (So, the Steam release probably has the nudity files in it.) Mutiny! on Steam has no nudity, but you can download a large patch elsewhere to enable it. Kindred Spirits got explicit permission from Valve before launching there, and I don't even think it has nudity, just teenage lesbians.
It's a really random scattershot of games targeted, without some of the worst or most obvious offenders like House Party.
posted by graventy at 1:23 PM on May 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't buy the iOS explanation, because there are Reddit apps all over the place that don't do anything to stop NSFW reddits.
Honestly, a blanket ban would make more sense. Instead it seems highly random and arbitrary. Huniepop has no nudity but a (I think) 0 kb file you can download to flip the switch. (So, the Steam release probably has the nudity files in it.) Mutiny! on Steam has no nudity, but you can download a large patch elsewhere to enable it. Kindred Spirits got explicit permission from Valve before launching there, and I don't even think it has nudity, just teenage lesbians.
It's a really random scattershot of games targeted, without some of the worst or most obvious offenders like House Party.
posted by graventy at 1:23 PM on May 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
the nintendo switch eShop definitely has games that wouldn't get the Seal of Approval back in the day
posted by murphy slaw at 1:24 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by murphy slaw at 1:24 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
There are issues with cartoon character "ages" too. Many of these would be illegal or at least legally grey in Canada, for instance, for representing minors in a sexual context, even fictional cartoon ones.
posted by bonehead at 1:26 PM on May 22, 2018
posted by bonehead at 1:26 PM on May 22, 2018
Anime tittie holocaust dude is a gamergator so take his antics for what they are.
The world wouldn't miss much if Huniepop was the only victim of Steam's new puritianism and I speak as someone who has sunk way too much time playing candy crush for anime tiddy before I knew they were gators.
Much worse is that it's hurting ames like Kindred Spirits on the Roof, which is where you have to help two lesbian ghosts pass on by teaching them how to be intimate with each other, by um, making sure that every lesbian couple in your school finally hook up.
About the most explicit thing in that is that the couples might end up h-h-holding hands which is lewd but you get more explicit sexual conduct in mainstream games like GTA or whatever
But it's queer content so it's always in the firing line, despite the publishing company working closely with Valve to make sure they adhered to their policies when the game was first brought to Steam.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:30 PM on May 22, 2018 [22 favorites]
The world wouldn't miss much if Huniepop was the only victim of Steam's new puritianism and I speak as someone who has sunk way too much time playing candy crush for anime tiddy before I knew they were gators.
Much worse is that it's hurting ames like Kindred Spirits on the Roof, which is where you have to help two lesbian ghosts pass on by teaching them how to be intimate with each other, by um, making sure that every lesbian couple in your school finally hook up.
About the most explicit thing in that is that the couples might end up h-h-holding hands which is lewd but you get more explicit sexual conduct in mainstream games like GTA or whatever
But it's queer content so it's always in the firing line, despite the publishing company working closely with Valve to make sure they adhered to their policies when the game was first brought to Steam.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:30 PM on May 22, 2018 [22 favorites]
The iOS thing strikes me as plausible. Generally there's a loophole for adult content if it's not stored on the device -- e.g. it's only accessible via a browser that the user has to take some specific, non-default action to activate AND the app is not specifically marketed as being overtly sexy or whatever. Your app is still rated 17+. But if your app has adult content burned in, or if it can download it automatically/trivially, it's not going to be allowed into the App Store.
On the other hand, you're pretty in the clear if you're a shop or a magazine or a video provider and you simply hide adult content from your iOS clients, e.g. those categories simply don't exist. AliExpress did that for a long time with sex toys -- you couldn't search for them on the iOS app. I think Amazon's client gets around it by being technically a browser but it's a tough call either way.
Ultimately still more disappointment about Steam in general.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:32 PM on May 22, 2018
On the other hand, you're pretty in the clear if you're a shop or a magazine or a video provider and you simply hide adult content from your iOS clients, e.g. those categories simply don't exist. AliExpress did that for a long time with sex toys -- you couldn't search for them on the iOS app. I think Amazon's client gets around it by being technically a browser but it's a tough call either way.
Ultimately still more disappointment about Steam in general.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:32 PM on May 22, 2018
Thing about visual novels and "anime games" is that they're relatively cheap to make, Steam is flooded with them and so many of them are not very good, so it's an easy and relatively visible target for this sort of puritan disapproval.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:34 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by MartinWisse at 1:34 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
I never knew that he was part of the gamergate community, but with that kind of quote, not too surprising. Ugh, I should have pulled something better for the post, apologies. I feel gross now.
posted by Fizz at 1:40 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Fizz at 1:40 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
automated processes to implement those rules
But remember - humans are expensive, algorithms are cheap.
In this case I'm pretty sure it's a human being making these decisions, simply because, unlike for a video, there is not really any reliable mechanism by which an algorithm could in general even look at game's content.
posted by Pyry at 2:07 PM on May 22, 2018
But remember - humans are expensive, algorithms are cheap.
In this case I'm pretty sure it's a human being making these decisions, simply because, unlike for a video, there is not really any reliable mechanism by which an algorithm could in general even look at game's content.
posted by Pyry at 2:07 PM on May 22, 2018
I was under the impression that Valve has started to walk some of the bans back in the wake of public media pressure. The Destructoid link says as much. More competition is needed though, Valve lacks the spine to lead, in this or curation or who gets to publish on Steam. They'd rather not make the hard decisions, so they are buffeted by social media pressure left and right.
posted by zabuni at 2:15 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by zabuni at 2:15 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Earlier today I read a scene in an otome where an abuse survivor's sexual boundaries were given unquestioning respect. Not, "I'll seduce you into it for your own good," it was clear unambiguous, verbally negotiated consent to do this but not that (within the limits of what you can say within a phone app). So not all anime titties.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:26 PM on May 22, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:26 PM on May 22, 2018 [10 favorites]
Valve had to approve/review these game to be sold on Steam, correct?
I think that, with the removal of Greenlight, Steam was flooded with new games, and as far as most of us can tell, they're getting only cursory examination. Steam's policy has been "approve 'em all; if buyers aren't happy, we have a solid refund policy."
VNs that are "dating games with racy content" are allowed. How explicit they are allowed to get is unclear, and of course, Valve is not playing through all the options to find out if some of the content crosses whatever lines they have set up.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:37 PM on May 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think that, with the removal of Greenlight, Steam was flooded with new games, and as far as most of us can tell, they're getting only cursory examination. Steam's policy has been "approve 'em all; if buyers aren't happy, we have a solid refund policy."
VNs that are "dating games with racy content" are allowed. How explicit they are allowed to get is unclear, and of course, Valve is not playing through all the options to find out if some of the content crosses whatever lines they have set up.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:37 PM on May 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Ugh, I should have pulled something better for the post, apologies. I feel gross now.
We could appropriate the phrase for team awesome and make it something way awesomer than gamergater garbage?
That's a thing we can do right?
posted by nikaspark at 2:45 PM on May 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
We could appropriate the phrase for team awesome and make it something way awesomer than gamergater garbage?
That's a thing we can do right?
posted by nikaspark at 2:45 PM on May 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think that, with the removal of Greenlight, Steam was flooded with new games, and as far as most of us can tell, they're getting only cursory examination. Steam's policy has been "approve 'em all; if buyers aren't happy, we have a solid refund policy."
Which is Valve's own damn fault. Gaben needs to stop being a cheap ass, and actually hire curators.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:50 PM on May 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
Which is Valve's own damn fault. Gaben needs to stop being a cheap ass, and actually hire curators.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:50 PM on May 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
Hiring curators doesn't solve the hard problem of formalizing what a good-enough-to-be-on-steam game is.
posted by Pyry at 2:57 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Pyry at 2:57 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's because of these asshole christian men who think they should run everything about sex.
Yeah, I've heard this too (link to National Center on Sexual Exploitation's page about Steam), but I'm not sure. As with the iOS thing, the timing does line up pretty well as they apparently had a heightened week-long grassroots campaign, which began on May 10th, where individuals from around the country requested Steam to remove sexually exploitive content. (quoted from above link)
Their #1 demand is that Valve Remove the game House Party due to its singularly degrading and exploitive themes. and I haven't seen anything about that game (could be the publisher has just elected to stay quiet). Also, their "campaign" looked pretty paltry (on Twitter anyway).
Again, the timing does line up. Could be a confluence of factors.
posted by ODiV at 2:59 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I've heard this too (link to National Center on Sexual Exploitation's page about Steam), but I'm not sure. As with the iOS thing, the timing does line up pretty well as they apparently had a heightened week-long grassroots campaign, which began on May 10th, where individuals from around the country requested Steam to remove sexually exploitive content. (quoted from above link)
Their #1 demand is that Valve Remove the game House Party due to its singularly degrading and exploitive themes. and I haven't seen anything about that game (could be the publisher has just elected to stay quiet). Also, their "campaign" looked pretty paltry (on Twitter anyway).
Again, the timing does line up. Could be a confluence of factors.
posted by ODiV at 2:59 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Oh, I completely missed that Valve told some devs (including HuniePot and Lupiesoft) that the two week deadline was off and their games are being "re-reviewed". Just got around to reading to the end of the Polygon article in the post. It's also mentioned in the Destructoid one. I feel silly now.
So I guess we'll see what happens?
posted by ODiV at 3:19 PM on May 22, 2018
So I guess we'll see what happens?
posted by ODiV at 3:19 PM on May 22, 2018
I have super conflicted feels about this because I scroll through the cheap games on Steam enough that I’ve seen a lot of the “anime dating games” that are super, super unhealthy, but it’s not like their nudity makes them so.
I propose a compromise where games on Steam have to demonstrate healthy attitudes towards women or they are behind a screen for 21+.
posted by corb at 4:16 PM on May 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
I propose a compromise where games on Steam have to demonstrate healthy attitudes towards women or they are behind a screen for 21+.
posted by corb at 4:16 PM on May 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
Their #1 demand is that Valve Remove the game House Party due to its singularly degrading and exploitive themes. and I haven't seen anything about that game (could be the publisher has just elected to stay quiet).
Here's the RockPaperShotgun review of House Party in case you'd like to get a flavor for what's being objected to. It is incredibly gross and definitely also falls into the zone where nothing of value would be lost for it to be removed from Steam.
That said, pretty much all of the people who have been targeted here seem to be tiny developers, most of whom (unlike the HuniePop guy and whoever's behind House Party) are peddling (relatively) harmless smut. If Valve has decided to suddenly have convictions, maybe they should bounce the Far Cry games where exoticized women from exaggeratedly primitive cultures take off their clothes repeatedly, but I'm not going to hold my breath since they neither want to piss off major developers nor cost themselves the sales from AAA games, so basically UbiSoft/Rockstar/etc. get to continue to do whatever they want and only the little guys have to follow whatever rules are being enforced this week.
posted by Copronymus at 4:19 PM on May 22, 2018 [9 favorites]
Here's the RockPaperShotgun review of House Party in case you'd like to get a flavor for what's being objected to. It is incredibly gross and definitely also falls into the zone where nothing of value would be lost for it to be removed from Steam.
That said, pretty much all of the people who have been targeted here seem to be tiny developers, most of whom (unlike the HuniePop guy and whoever's behind House Party) are peddling (relatively) harmless smut. If Valve has decided to suddenly have convictions, maybe they should bounce the Far Cry games where exoticized women from exaggeratedly primitive cultures take off their clothes repeatedly, but I'm not going to hold my breath since they neither want to piss off major developers nor cost themselves the sales from AAA games, so basically UbiSoft/Rockstar/etc. get to continue to do whatever they want and only the little guys have to follow whatever rules are being enforced this week.
posted by Copronymus at 4:19 PM on May 22, 2018 [9 favorites]
Could this have something to do with the "OI MATE YOU GOT YA PORNO LOICENSE?" stuff coming out on Airstrip One?
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:20 PM on May 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:20 PM on May 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Which is Valve's own damn fault. Gaben needs to stop being a cheap ass, and actually hire curators.
Well, yeah. Greenlight was an attempt to crowdsource the review process, and when it drew too much drama and was obviously inspiring a lot of cheating, they decided to remove the review process entirely. And I'm sure we are all shocked, shocked, to discover that when you remove moderation and review from an online platform, it starts collecting (1) porn and (2) bigotry.
And of course, the People Concerned With What Other People Do In Their Spare Time are most concerned with the ability to view nipples.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:39 PM on May 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Well, yeah. Greenlight was an attempt to crowdsource the review process, and when it drew too much drama and was obviously inspiring a lot of cheating, they decided to remove the review process entirely. And I'm sure we are all shocked, shocked, to discover that when you remove moderation and review from an online platform, it starts collecting (1) porn and (2) bigotry.
And of course, the People Concerned With What Other People Do In Their Spare Time are most concerned with the ability to view nipples.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:39 PM on May 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
pretty much all of the people who have been targeted here seem to be tiny developers
Those are just the ones we've heard about, I think right? Or did I miss a complete list somewhere?
It's admittedly pretty unlikely, but is it possible that CD Projekt or other larger publishers received similar communications from Valve and just didn't go public with it?
posted by ODiV at 5:18 PM on May 22, 2018
Those are just the ones we've heard about, I think right? Or did I miss a complete list somewhere?
It's admittedly pretty unlikely, but is it possible that CD Projekt or other larger publishers received similar communications from Valve and just didn't go public with it?
posted by ODiV at 5:18 PM on May 22, 2018
I have super conflicted feels about this because I scroll through the cheap games on Steam enough that I’ve seen a lot of the “anime dating games” that are super, super unhealthy, but it’s not like their nudity makes them so.
I propose a compromise where games on Steam have to demonstrate healthy attitudes towards women or they are behind a screen for 21+.
If Valve wrote a blog post saying "we've heard your requests for more hands-on curation of the Steam store, and we're starting by running all games relating to romance or sex by a panel of feminists," we'd get the most spectacular fireworks show in the history of the internet. What an amazing idea that will never happen.
And yeah, there's some major creepy garbage on Steam, but if the worst offenders got the same warning letter as fun, positive games like Kindred Spirits they haven't made a fuss. Could be they're laying low while the more press-friendly games make the public case for keeping Steam's content restrictions looser.
posted by skymt at 5:26 PM on May 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
I propose a compromise where games on Steam have to demonstrate healthy attitudes towards women or they are behind a screen for 21+.
If Valve wrote a blog post saying "we've heard your requests for more hands-on curation of the Steam store, and we're starting by running all games relating to romance or sex by a panel of feminists," we'd get the most spectacular fireworks show in the history of the internet. What an amazing idea that will never happen.
And yeah, there's some major creepy garbage on Steam, but if the worst offenders got the same warning letter as fun, positive games like Kindred Spirits they haven't made a fuss. Could be they're laying low while the more press-friendly games make the public case for keeping Steam's content restrictions looser.
posted by skymt at 5:26 PM on May 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
running all games relating to romance or sex
It's a good start, but why not also go after a bigger fish like GTA?
posted by FJT at 6:07 PM on May 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's a good start, but why not also go after a bigger fish like GTA?
posted by FJT at 6:07 PM on May 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
As I said above, maybe they did reach out to bigger companies. It's not like Rockstar is going to take to Twitter over the weekend.
But more realistically the bigger games get a pass because Valve likes making money.
posted by ODiV at 6:21 PM on May 22, 2018
But more realistically the bigger games get a pass because Valve likes making money.
posted by ODiV at 6:21 PM on May 22, 2018
CD Projekt is also an interesting example because they own the Steam competitor GOG, which several of the articles cite as taking an opposite policy approach to these kinds of games. Presumably the fact that CD Projekt's own games contain some amount of adult content might make them more sympathetic to the visual novel folks.
posted by phoenixy at 7:38 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by phoenixy at 7:38 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
So, if I'm not mistaken, just like in law, intent matters. GTA contains nudity, yes, but that is in service of the portrayal of the gritty reality in fictional Los Andreas. There are strip clubs and topless beaches in real life, and while the intent of those individual elements is to titillate, they are part of a larger authorial intent depicting the troubled lives of 3 friends who were involved in a botched robbery 9 years ago and their attempts at keeping things from spiraling out of control. This is what separates it from porn, whose sole purpose is to titillate the viewer. Ok, fine, so you disguise it as a match 3 game, or visual novel, so there are some shades of grey here, but I think the intent of those "games" is pretty clear.
Much as people have said Counter-Strike is a "murder simulator" - it is a game with a very deep layer of strategy and skill and a competitive circuit. On the other extreme, say, imagine a "game" where there was no game-play loop, you just had people tied up in the basement and you stabbed them / dismembered their limbs while they screamed in their death throes, you just did that over and over and killed them in different ways. THAT game would not be approved on the Steam store or any store for that matter, I think, and for good reason.
posted by xdvesper at 7:52 PM on May 22, 2018
Much as people have said Counter-Strike is a "murder simulator" - it is a game with a very deep layer of strategy and skill and a competitive circuit. On the other extreme, say, imagine a "game" where there was no game-play loop, you just had people tied up in the basement and you stabbed them / dismembered their limbs while they screamed in their death throes, you just did that over and over and killed them in different ways. THAT game would not be approved on the Steam store or any store for that matter, I think, and for good reason.
posted by xdvesper at 7:52 PM on May 22, 2018
I wonder if they're going to remove Genital Jousting which bypasses the whole "plot" and "titillation" issues and goes directly to "multicolored peen flopping around on the screen. Sometimes in cute little outfits."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:12 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:12 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
...you just had people tied up in the basement and you stabbed them / dismembered their limbs while they screamed in their death throes
Did you actually play GTA V? For 10 minutes, that's all that game was and it made me sick.
posted by Evstar at 8:41 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Did you actually play GTA V? For 10 minutes, that's all that game was and it made me sick.
posted by Evstar at 8:41 PM on May 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Setting aside the question about whether games should be primarily ludic or narrative, the reality is that we're in the fourth decade of digital storytelling media. Considering that, there's a double standard that the heroic journey of cultural genocide and imperialism underlying almost every 4X game seems to be more acceptable than queer people negotiating consensual kinky fun time in a farce, or stories where the primary conflict is developing a relationship of mutual trust in a tropey fantasy universe. Teen and YA versions often don't do much more salacious than emojis at midnight and holding hands in the cafeteria. Romance games are not just about the payoff copy where bodices get lovingly rippedunbuttoned with enthusiastic consent. They're a bit of emotional wish-fulfillment as well.
That double standard isn't that surprising given the nearly universal disdain for romance in any medium, except for sad boner confessional which refuses to resolve the conflict in favor of saying that sad boners are the natural nihilistic state of middle-aged and middle-class men who can't get no satisfaction. Maybe even they'll swallow romance as a plot device when tacked on as a secondary subplot of adventure tales for overgrown lads where the emotional work of relationships is rendered invisible. Curiously, cinematic sad boner stories have often been proud of their X and NC-17 ratings for showing "real sex," while action cinema is notorious for hyper-stylized male gaze.
Sure, there's porn with plot out there, and even porn without plot alongside the dozens of AAA mass-murder simulators. But as is often the case, the discussions about gaming seem to be focused on games by dudebros for dudebros when American dudebros with PCs are now a minority of a minority in terms of revenue.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 9:26 PM on May 22, 2018 [9 favorites]
That double standard isn't that surprising given the nearly universal disdain for romance in any medium, except for sad boner confessional which refuses to resolve the conflict in favor of saying that sad boners are the natural nihilistic state of middle-aged and middle-class men who can't get no satisfaction. Maybe even they'll swallow romance as a plot device when tacked on as a secondary subplot of adventure tales for overgrown lads where the emotional work of relationships is rendered invisible. Curiously, cinematic sad boner stories have often been proud of their X and NC-17 ratings for showing "real sex," while action cinema is notorious for hyper-stylized male gaze.
Sure, there's porn with plot out there, and even porn without plot alongside the dozens of AAA mass-murder simulators. But as is often the case, the discussions about gaming seem to be focused on games by dudebros for dudebros when American dudebros with PCs are now a minority of a minority in terms of revenue.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 9:26 PM on May 22, 2018 [9 favorites]
So, if I'm not mistaken, just like in law, intent matters. GTA contains nudity, yes, but that is in service of the portrayal of the gritty reality in fictional Los Andreas.
Okay, the post title is about pornography in a game, and it sounds like your reply is about that. But other comments have extended the topic to include whether a game has healthy attitudes towards women. So, when I was talking about GTA, I was more referring to this:
"GTA V has little room for women except to portray them as strippers, prostitutes, long-suffering wives, humorless girlfriends and goofy, new-age feminists we’re meant to laugh at."
This is even more damning, because I quoted from the Carolyn Petit GTA V Gamespot review. The one that made her a target of Gamergaters.
Finally, I'm not an expert on VNs, but I don't think it's too far off to see a lot of them as game versions of romance novels.
And on preview, GenderNullPointerException said it way better than I could so I'm gonna stop right here.
posted by FJT at 9:54 PM on May 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Okay, the post title is about pornography in a game, and it sounds like your reply is about that. But other comments have extended the topic to include whether a game has healthy attitudes towards women. So, when I was talking about GTA, I was more referring to this:
"GTA V has little room for women except to portray them as strippers, prostitutes, long-suffering wives, humorless girlfriends and goofy, new-age feminists we’re meant to laugh at."
This is even more damning, because I quoted from the Carolyn Petit GTA V Gamespot review. The one that made her a target of Gamergaters.
Finally, I'm not an expert on VNs, but I don't think it's too far off to see a lot of them as game versions of romance novels.
And on preview, GenderNullPointerException said it way better than I could so I'm gonna stop right here.
posted by FJT at 9:54 PM on May 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
So, if I'm not mistaken, just like in law, intent matters. GTA contains nudity, yes, but that is in service of the portrayal of the gritty reality in fictional Los Andreas. There are strip clubs and topless beaches in real life, and while the intent of those individual elements is to titillate, they are part of a larger authorial intent depicting the troubled lives of 3 friends who were involved in a botched robbery 9 years ago and their attempts at keeping things from spiraling out of control. This is what separates it from porn, whose sole purpose is to titillate the viewer.
Which is why you can beat a prostitute to death with the double-headed dildo you found in the police station showers.
Pull the other one. 's got bells on it.
posted by happyroach at 11:59 PM on May 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
Which is why you can beat a prostitute to death with the double-headed dildo you found in the police station showers.
Pull the other one. 's got bells on it.
posted by happyroach at 11:59 PM on May 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
I mean where else would you find a double-headed dildo
More seriously, given that the GTA series is in large part about emergent properties, if you have a game where a) you can hit people and they will eventually die, b) sex workers, and c) dildos you can equip, amongst the many other things that happen, some of which you want in your crime game, you will allow people to beat a sex worker to death with a dildo. Game elements colliding together in ways that are meaningful (or absurd) is part of what makes these kinds of things entertaining, and it's usually pretty trivial to make them dark because none of those things actually have the same meanings in the game: 'killing people' means playing the death animation and then respawning an identical copy elsewhere, 'sex worker' is a skin for a non-player character, and the 'large dildo' is a floppy cylinder that's based on a baseball bat.
It's hard to say what part of the simulation you should break to prevent that kind of behaviour. If you can't kill sex workers, then they're invulnerable so you want to make sure you bring a sex worker to difficult shootouts to act as a human shield. Maybe you can't damage people with dildos which... honestly would probably be reasonable, I'm not 12 . Skyrim doesn't allow you to kill children, which seems fair, but there's a group of people who object to the inconsistency; if they murder everyone in town except for the children, it's a bit weird that the children don't react at all. People sort of accept it for children because that inconsistency is a small price to pay for the game to not be "the children murder game". (A factor is definitely that there are people who want the children murder game.)
posted by Merus at 1:05 AM on May 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
More seriously, given that the GTA series is in large part about emergent properties, if you have a game where a) you can hit people and they will eventually die, b) sex workers, and c) dildos you can equip, amongst the many other things that happen, some of which you want in your crime game, you will allow people to beat a sex worker to death with a dildo. Game elements colliding together in ways that are meaningful (or absurd) is part of what makes these kinds of things entertaining, and it's usually pretty trivial to make them dark because none of those things actually have the same meanings in the game: 'killing people' means playing the death animation and then respawning an identical copy elsewhere, 'sex worker' is a skin for a non-player character, and the 'large dildo' is a floppy cylinder that's based on a baseball bat.
It's hard to say what part of the simulation you should break to prevent that kind of behaviour. If you can't kill sex workers, then they're invulnerable so you want to make sure you bring a sex worker to difficult shootouts to act as a human shield. Maybe you can't damage people with dildos which... honestly would probably be reasonable, I'm not 12 . Skyrim doesn't allow you to kill children, which seems fair, but there's a group of people who object to the inconsistency; if they murder everyone in town except for the children, it's a bit weird that the children don't react at all. People sort of accept it for children because that inconsistency is a small price to pay for the game to not be "the children murder game". (A factor is definitely that there are people who want the children murder game.)
posted by Merus at 1:05 AM on May 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yeah, while I've got no time for House Party-type games, somehow these bans always, mysteriously, end up hitting indie, queer, or otherwise "deviant" works way harder than, say, the popular and successful ones that serve up more normalized, but as or usually even more graphic, material. With the important limitation of child pornography, I remain way closer to a free-speech-absolutist position in this area than in almost any other, simply because the history of restriction enforcement is so bad.
posted by praemunire at 1:11 AM on May 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 1:11 AM on May 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
Animu tiddy aside, I hadn't heard of this GOG outfit until this thread. That Kotaku article calls them Steam's "biggest rival", but is their selection and service any good? What's the scoop?
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 8:49 AM on May 23, 2018
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 8:49 AM on May 23, 2018
They started as Good Old Games, a DRM-free storefront with your favourite old games working on today's systems. Before GOG there were a lot of PC games you couldn't buy any more except for maybe used on Amazon, and then good luck getting it working. They've since branched out into providing a Steam-like client (GOG Galaxy) and selling more modern games, but I'm pretty sure they haven't lost sight of their initial mission and you can still get no-frills DRM free old games.
posted by ODiV at 8:58 AM on May 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by ODiV at 8:58 AM on May 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
They're pretty inconsistent about what indies they choose to sell through their storefront, but on the other hand their storefront is actually curated by human beings, even if those human beings aren't publicly accountable for explaining their decisions, so it's a huge step up over Steam's open-the-floodgates-then-sometimes-change-your-mind-later approach.
As far as new releases go, they're a solid place to find a lot of games from the bigger sub-AAA publishers like Paradox and Devolver Digital as well as a good collection of self-published indies. Obviously, all of CDProjekt's stuff is there as well. And then you do actually get a lot of last-gen AAA stuff as well. Like, Oblivion and Fallout: New Vegas are on there, although Skyrim and Fallout 4 are not.
Overall, GOG is a decent enough service, so nowadays I tend to buy games there instead of on Steam when they're available on both platforms.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:09 AM on May 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
As far as new releases go, they're a solid place to find a lot of games from the bigger sub-AAA publishers like Paradox and Devolver Digital as well as a good collection of self-published indies. Obviously, all of CDProjekt's stuff is there as well. And then you do actually get a lot of last-gen AAA stuff as well. Like, Oblivion and Fallout: New Vegas are on there, although Skyrim and Fallout 4 are not.
Overall, GOG is a decent enough service, so nowadays I tend to buy games there instead of on Steam when they're available on both platforms.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:09 AM on May 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
"On Monday, May 7, Apple approved the Steam Link app for release," Valve said in a statement sent to Ars. "On Wednesday, May 9, Valve released news of the app. The following morning, Apple revoked its approval citing business conflicts with app guidelines that had allegedly not been realized by the original review team."
- Ars Technica
Must suck to have your software unceremoniously rejected by a storefront like that. Especially after it had been previously approved.
posted by ODiV at 7:31 AM on May 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
- Ars Technica
Must suck to have your software unceremoniously rejected by a storefront like that. Especially after it had been previously approved.
posted by ODiV at 7:31 AM on May 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
Between that and the other big gaming news of the day, it's pretty clear that the universe loves irony.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:46 AM on May 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by tobascodagama at 7:46 AM on May 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, this lovely game where you can play as someone shooting up a school is still available on Steam.
(Which probably says more about Steam's wildly inconsistent and unevenly applied moderation than any sort of deep irony about anime boobs vs violence, but still)
posted by thefoxgod at 1:05 PM on May 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
(Which probably says more about Steam's wildly inconsistent and unevenly applied moderation than any sort of deep irony about anime boobs vs violence, but still)
posted by thefoxgod at 1:05 PM on May 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Steam has zagged back to allowing anything that's not illegal, so in addition to smutty visual novels, I expect we'll see straight-up porn and probably genocide simulators by the end of the week.
posted by Copronymus at 12:11 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Copronymus at 12:11 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Gabe Newell, world's richest child: "FINE! We just won't do any moderation at all, then! See how you like it!"
posted by tobascodagama at 1:15 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by tobascodagama at 1:15 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
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posted by tobascodagama at 12:36 PM on May 22, 2018 [10 favorites]